Subject: WWII-L Digest - 11 Oct 1993 to 12 Oct 1993

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 00:00:24 -0400

There are 14 messages totalling 478 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. USAAF   10 Oct 43 (2)
  2. SdKfz. 234 Puma (3)
  3. Rommel's vehicle
  4. USAAF 12 OCT 43
  5. Division of Japanese forces bad?
  6. Q: German medal, 1939 (2)
  7. A minor correction re:  F4Fs at Coral Sea/Midway
  8. Division of Japanese forces at Leyte worked
  9. Recreation Groups
 10. <No subject given>

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Date:    Mon, 11 Oct 1993 16:35:49 -0400
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: USAAF   10 Oct 43

Additional points to note about the USAAF's 8th AF mission #114,
flown on Sunday, 10 October 1943:

This mission was the 8th's first deliberate targeting of German
civilians.  The target was Munster, and the central aiming point
was the front steps of the Munster Cathedral.  The initial plans
called for the first bombs to hit at 12:00 noon.  The plans were
altered, changing the time to 3:00 PM, saving many lives.  For
an eyewitness account, read Capt. Ellis Scripture's entry in the
book "B-17s Over Berlin:  Personal Stories from the 95th BG(H)",
edited by Ian L. Hawkins.  Capt. Scripture was the lead navigator
for the 95th BG for the mission.  Thirty B-17s were lost, over
10 percent of the attacking force.

Dennis E. Sparks
[email-masked]
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Oct 1993 11:56:33 MET
From:    Ireneusz Jakobik <[email-masked]>
Subject: SdKfz. 234 Puma

I'd like to know something more about German SdKfz. 234 Puma vehicle,
especially about its use in Africa (and what SdKfz means). I'm also
looking for photos of Rommel's SdKfz. 259/1 Grief, drawings and photos
of SdKfz 223 interior (it's a 4 wheeled armoured radio vehicle), and photos
of LVTP7A1 interior (modern US Marines infantry vehicle. It has nothing to
do with World War Two - sorry). If you can help me, please contact me
directly, my net address is [email-masked]. Thanks.
-Irek.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Oct 1993 09:42:51 MET
From:    Ireneusz Jakobik <[email-masked]>
Subject: Rommel's vehicle

I made a mistake in my mail on Friday. Rommel's vehicle 'Grief' was an
SdKfz. 250/3. Sorry.
-Irek.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Oct 1993 07:17:35 -0400
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: USAAF 12 OCT 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
TUESDAY, 12 OCTOBER 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CARIBBEAN (Sixth Air Force): The detachments of the 10th and 35th
Bombardment Squadrons (Medium), 25th Bombardment Group (Medium), that have
been operating from Port of Spain, Trinidad with B-25's since Aug 43 return
to their base at Edinburgh Field, Trinidad and Vernam Field, Jamaica
respectively.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 5 B-24's bomb the warehouse area and
railroad yards at Myitkyina, Burma.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): The 359th Fighter Squadron,
356th Fighter Group, transfers from Goxhill to Martlesham, England with
P-47's. The squadron will fly it's first combat mission on 15 Oct.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): XII Bomber Command
operations are canceled by weather. In Italy, the XII Air Support Command
and other Northwest African Tactical Air Force (NATAF) elements [Northwest
African Tactical Bomber Force (NATBF) and Royal Air Force (RAF) Desert Air
Force (DAF)] operate on a reduced scale, hitting road junctions at Vasto
and Fossacesia, Aquino Airfield, motor transport on the Itri-Pico road and
on a road N of Rome in the Bolsena and Capranica areas, roads near
Tarquinia, rail facilities at Cisterna di Latina, trains between Pescara
and Benedello, and guns and troops near Cercemaggiore.
  HQ 81st Fighter Group and it's 91st Fighter Squadron transfer from Sidi
Ahmed, Tunisia to Castelvetrano, Sicily with P-39's.
  HQ 86th Fighter-Bomber Group and it's 526th Fighter-Bomber Squadron, transfer
from Sele Airfield to Serretella Airfield, Italy with A-36's.
  The 86th Bombardment Squadron (Light), 47th Bombardment Group (Light),
transfers from Grottaglie to Vincenzo Airfield, Italy with A-20's.
  The detachment of the 94th Fighter Squadron, 1st Fighter Group, that has
been operating from Gambut, Libya with P-38's since 4 Oct, returns to it's
base at Mateur, Tunisia.
  The detachment of the 515th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 376th Bombardment
Group (Heavy), at Bengasi, Libya with B-24's since 1 Oct, returns to it's
base at Enfidaville, Tunisia.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, 2 B-25's skip-bomb 2 small vessels in Matchin Bay on Bougainville
Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): The Allied Air
Force begins a major air offensive against Rabaul on New Britain Island in
the Bismarck Archipelago with the aim of isolating and neutralizing it.
Almost 350 B-24's, B-25's, P-38's, and Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF)
airplanes pound the town, harbor, and airfields in the area; 50+ Japanese
aircraft are destroyed, 3 ships are sunk and several damaged, and several
small harbor craft are sunk. B-25's fly small strikes against targets on
Timor Island and other areas of the Netherlands East Indies.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
 Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Oct 1993 07:09:21 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: SdKfz. 234 Puma

Irek,

I will locate the info for you. I used to know the designation SDkfz.
I will get that for you too. Kfz stands for Kraftfahrzeug or vehicle.

Will be in touch.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Oct 1993 09:04:14 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: USAAF   10 Oct 43

>Additional points to note about the USAAF's 8th AF mission #114,
>flown on Sunday, 10 October 1943:
>
>This mission was the 8th's first deliberate targeting of German
>civilians.  The target was Munster, and the central aiming point
>was the front steps of the Munster Cathedral.  The initial plans
>called for the first bombs to hit at 12:00 noon.  The plans were
>altered, changing the time to 3:00 PM, saving many lives.  For
>an eyewitness account, read Capt. Ellis Scripture's entry in the
>book "B-17s Over Berlin:  Personal Stories from the 95th BG(H)",
>edited by Ian L. Hawkins.  Capt. Scripture was the lead navigator
>for the 95th BG for the mission.  Thirty B-17s were lost, over
>10 percent of the attacking force.
>
>
>
>Dennis E. Sparks
>[email-masked]
>Lexington, Kentucky

Some more info on Dennis's points: The instigator of this particular mission
was one Curtis LeMay, the most innovative air commander of WWII, who was
either trying to evade intense air defenses or just experimenting with new
bombing techniques.  AAF raids such as this remained the exception in Europe,
but LeMay would finally perfect his techniques against Japan.

                                                   LTC Con Crane
                                                   USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Oct 1993 17:09:29 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Division of Japanese forces bad?

On Mon, 11 Oct 1993, Lou Coatney wrote:

> Maybe.  On the other hand, the Japanese nearly annihilated our Leyte
>   invasion force with exactly such a complicated, carefully timed plan.

Maybe. On the other hand, the Japanese plan amounted to a suicide mission
for the IJN fleet, a certain one for the carriers and a probable one for
the battleships. And their time schedule collapsed almost immediately,
because Osawa's carrier unit was the last to be found by the US fleet, and
not, as intended, the first.

Did this plan work? Of the three fleet units attacking the invaison fleet,
one was destroyed and one turned back, without doing much damage. Kurita
was offered an opportunity to hit, yes. But this was more due to the
foolhardiness of Tokio and the errors of Halsey than to the Japanese plan.
Without the first, Kurita would have turned back with the remains of his
unit. Without the second, he wouldn't have had the opportunity.

> Knowing Halsey's aggressive personality, they played him perfectly --
>   faking him out of the main/battleline action completely.

I wouldn't call this 'perfect play'. Sounds more like a desperate gamble to
me. If Halsey had merely taken the time to inform the invasion fleet of
his departure, or had been wise enough not to take _all_ his forces with
him, things would have been very different.

>   If Kurita
>   hadn't lost his nerve at the critical moment, our losses could have
>   been disastrous, and -- with the shock of Kamikazes -- we might have
>   reconsidered our "unconditional surrender" campaign against the
>   Japanese islands proper.

On the other hand --- Japanese plan accepted the likely destruction of
most of its fleet, and therefore the inevitable loss of the war, in order
to win just one battle. So it tacitly admitted that the war had already
been lost.

Emmanuel

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Oct 1993 15:43:58 -0500
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Q: German medal, 1939

Reposted from soc.history, please reply to address at end of file:
(Or tell us and I'll forward.)

>One of my students has come into the possession of a German
>military decoration. He would like more information about it.
>He would also like to know whether it has any sale value. I would
>be grateful if anyone out there with some knowledge about medals
>and military decorations can be of assistance.
>
>The medal is of brass; it is in the form of a Maltese cross,
>around 2" in height. A pair of swords (hilts at the 5 o'clock and
>7 o'clock positions) intersect the cross. At the centre is a
>wreath; on one side of the medal at the centre of the wreath
>there is a swastika, while on the other side the year "1939"
>appears in the centre. A brass ring passes through an eyelet at
>the top of the medal; the number "100" is stamped in almost
>microscopic numerals on this ring. The ribbon accompanying the
>medal no longer is attached. The ribbon is black with red edging;
>a thin white edge separate red and black.
>
>Thanks in advance for any information.
>
>Olaf Janzen                      Tel: (709) 637-6282
>Department of History            FAX: (709) 639-8125
>Sir Wilfred Grenfell College     e-mail: [email-masked]
>Corner Brook, Newfoundland
>Canada
>A2H 6P9

--
[email-masked]; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Oct 1993 17:07:15 -0230
From:    OLAF <[email-masked]>
Subject: Q: German medal, 1939

One of my students has come into the possession of a German
military decoration. He would like more information about it.
He would also like to know whether it has any sale value. I would
be grateful if anyone out there with some knowledge about medals
and military decorations can be of assistance.

The medal is of brass; it is in the form of a Maltese cross,
around 2" in height. A pair of swords (hilts at the 5 o'clock and
7 o'clock positions) intersect the cross. At the centre is a
wreath; on one side of the medal at the centre of the wreath
there is a swastika, while on the other side the year "1939"
appears in the centre. A brass ring passes through an eyelet at
the top of the medal; the number "100" is stamped in almost
microscopic numerals on this ring. The ribbon accompanying the
medal no longer is attached. The ribbon is black with red edging;
a thin white edge separate red and black.

Thanks in advance for any information.

Olaf Janzen                      Tel: (709) 637-6282
Department of History            FAX: (709) 639-8125
Sir Wilfred Grenfell College     e-mail: [email-masked]
Corner Brook, Newfoundland
Canada
A2H 6P9

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Oct 1993 17:51:35 -0400
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <[email-masked]>
Subject: A minor correction re:  F4Fs at Coral Sea/Midway

A minor correction (from memory; you know how dangerous that is)...

I believe that the F4Fs in action during the Battle of the
Coral Sea were mostly F4F-3 variants, while a month later
at Midway, many or all were F4F-4s.  The big differences
between the two were the advent of folding wings on the -4,
and the reduction in ammunition load.  By folding the wings,
the number that could be carried by a shipboard VF rose from
about 18 up to 27.  The penalty was a further increase in weight,
detrimental to performance.  Either to help offset the weight
gain, or because of reduced space available in the wing, the
amount of ammunition carried was reduced by about five second's
worth of firing time.

BTW, the SBD Dauntless never did receive folding wings, limiting
its effectiveness because of the reduced number that could be
stowed on a carrier.  It's replacement, the SB2C Helldiver, was
never as well liked by the pilots familiar with the SBD's handling.
If I recollect correctly, Enterprise managed to hang on to its
SBDs into 1944, rather than convert to the Helldiver.

Dennis E. Sparks
[email-masked]
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Oct 1993 15:20:57 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Division of Japanese forces at Leyte worked

Yes, lots of variables, but it nearly worked -- spectacularly -- just the
  same (and maybe because of all those variables).

Leyte wasn't as simple a situation as Midway.

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 11:47:33 +1000
From:    Michael J Fauchon <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: SdKfz. 234 Puma

        BTW, the "Sd" is for "Sonderdienst", i.e. special purpose. Just
by way of an aside.

                                                                Cheers,

                                                                Mick.

--                                                                          --
Mick Fauchon                          | Internet: [email-masked]
Reference Section, Auchmuty Library   | Ph  (intl+61+49) 215861
University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA    | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833

On Tue, 12 Oct 1993, Terry Moore wrote:

> Irek,
>
> I will locate the info for you. I used to know the designation SDkfz.
> I will get that for you too. Kfz stands for Kraftfahrzeug or vehicle.
>
> Will be in touch.
>
> Terry
>
> Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
> P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
> fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Oct 1993 20:25:41 CST
From:    "[email-masked]. --Scherrer,
         Tim A." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Recreation Groups

I've never heard of "Keep 'em Rolling" before.  I know there are several
WWII reenacting groups in Europe.

One reenacting group is located in England.  11th Panzer has
corresponded with one of their German groups about them attending our
events.  They can own semi-automatic weapons, but full-auto's are a
no-no there.  They have to pay somebody from the Army to bring and shoot
any full-auto's at an event they are holding.

There is a group in Germany that reenacts WWII as well.  Their gun laws
are so restrictive that it is difficult to get proper weapons, and
full-automatic firearms are out of the question as well.  They also have
to stitch out the swastika on their breast eagles, and other insignia
for it is illegal to wear.  They usually end up doing displays, but not
much more.

I know both groups have showed interest in coming to US events because
we can legally own and use WWII weapons.  That brings me to another
point.  The Bureau of Alocohol, Tobacco and Firearms controls where I ca
n take my MP-40, and where I can't due to the need to approve
transportation requests through them.  At least three reenactors were
disapproved for the national battle for no apparent reason by the BATF.
One administrator in particular did all three disapprovals.  They filled
the same paperwork the same way they always did, and it was always
approved up until now.  Mine got approved, but I hope this isn't a
preview of coming attractions under the Clinton Administration.

I'm not trying to make a political statement here.  It is just that
BATFchanging policies can have a large detrimental effect on our ability
to recreate history well.  I will keep you posted of any future
developments.

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Oct 1993 23:33:37 -0230
From:    CHILL <[email-masked]>
Subject: <No subject given>

To all who care to reply,

        Greetings! I have been monitoring the discussions on this service
for the past week or so and thought it was time to jump into the thick of
things. I am currently collecting information for my personal files on
technological advances in World War II (trust me there were many!) and their
use/importance in the European theater of operations. I thought this might
be an interesting topic for open debate. If any one has any information that
they would like to share or discuss (possibly even point me in the
direction of some interesting books on the subject) it would be greatly
appreciated.

Thanks

Chill
email address
[email-masked]
:*)

******************************************************************************
"FROM THE BOTTOM IT LOOKS LIKE A STEEP INCLINE, FROM THE TOP ANOTHER
DOWNHILL SLOPE OF MINE...BUT I KNOW THE EQUILIBRIUM'S THERE.
                    Mike Patton (no relation...I think)
******************************************************************************

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End of WWII-L Digest - 11 Oct 1993 to 12 Oct 1993
*************************************************