Subject: WWII-L Digest - 3 Oct 1993 to 4 Oct 1993

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1993 00:00:17 -0400

There are 25 messages totalling 1146 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. MEDIA: Doolittle Funeral via Washington Post
  2. USAAF 2-4 OCT 43
  3. WWII Memorabilia
  4. More on photos (3)
  5. AP Account of Funeral (4)
  6. WW2 Urban Legends/Folklore (5)
  7. REF: Volume 14 of the series _Militaerfahrzeuge_
  8. REF: Military History Institute Refbibs.
  9. (American) diplomatic history net?
 10. Jimmy Doolittle
 11. Regensburg and Schweinfurt
 12. Doolittle Funeral (3)
 13. ADMIN: Patience, please.
 14. REF: New Journal!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 3 Oct 1993 23:35:29 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA: Doolittle Funeral via Washington Post

Although I am one to diligently support copyright laws :-), I still wanted
to submit the text of an article from the Washington Post, even though I
don't have their permission.  But considering the royal treatment given
Miss Mitchell's crew (how often does the Pentagon tell you to "send us
your Christmas Wish List?"), I think we're OK.  :-)

There will be much more following in the future about the experience of our
crew and participation in the service.  There is everything from shock and
surprise (multi-star generals telling us they were honored to meet US (!!)
to visiting Col. Doolittle at Wright Patterson (he flew Miss Mitchell and
got three bounces in :-) and, when told by him to take a car, apparently
accidentally took HIS staff car (crew confused as to why everyone they
drove by snapped salutes at them.  :-)

A full report will take a while, however.  First thing Wednesday morning,
I, most of the D.C. Crew, several other people and Miss Mitchell departs
for the CAF Airshow in Midland, Texas (anyone going?  I'd like to hear from
you) for the week.  None of us returns until late evening on October 11th,
but we have an October 15th deadline for publication in one magazine.

Hopefully by then I can offer many personal insights, stories and
observations.  Until then, I am hoping to hear from people who were
there and hear their memories of the service...

In any case, I wholly support paragraph #3 in the article below and am
ecstatic to see that the beliefs and recognitions of certain things that
are important (mostly, history), really are still alive...

[Note, article Copyright, 1993 Washington Post.  All typos mine.]

IN ARLINGTON, FULL HONORS FOR A SKY-BLAZING HERO
Hundreds Attend Funeral of Gen. Jimmy Doolittle

By Peter Pae, Washington Post Staff Writer
2 October 1993

        Retired Air Force Sgt. Ray Ostlie [*1] looked up at the clear blue
sky and grimaced as a B-1 supersonic bomber flew by, thundering over the
funeral of Gen. James H. "Jimmy" Doolittle, the famed World War II
aviator.

        The symbol of the modern Air Force was too noisy for even the
hardiest veteran airmen who visited Arlington National Cemetery yesterday
for a final salute to one of their own flyboys.  Some covered their ears
to soften the B-1's deafening roar.

        But when a diminutive, twin-propeller World War II B-25 bomber
whirled by [*2], the somber mood of of the day suddenly erupted into
fist-waving and clapping.  Like several others, Ostlie, a B-25 cew chief
who worked under Doolittle in the North African campaign in 1943, sighed
and smiled.

        "Perhaps Doolittle was also smiling," said Ostlie, 73.  It was in
a B-25 "Mitchell" bomber that Doolittle became famous, leading a risky
raid on Tokyo five months after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.  The
raid by Doolittle's crew bolstered sagging American morale and made
Doolittle a war hero.

        Yesterday, two dozen men who flew that mission -- "Doolittle
Raiders," they were called -- joined Doolittle's family and friends to
pay tribute.  Doolittle, 96, died Monday at his Pebble Beach, Calif.,
home.

        Befitting his impact on U.S. aviation history, Doolittle was
given a full honors funeral by the Air Force, an elaborate ceremony
reserved for dignitaries and top officers.  It included a 21-gun salute
and a flyover by 11 aircraft, included eight F-15 and F-16 fighter jets
and a C-141 cargo jet.

        "The Air Force and America has lost one of its greatest airmen and
one of its bravest heroes," said Gen. Merrill A. McPeak, Air Force chief
of staff.  "A sterling chapter in aviation history is closed."

        Although Doolittle was best known for leading the April 1942 raid
on Tokyo and three other Japanese cities, his career was distinguished by
several accomplishments.  He became the first person to fly across the
United States in less than 24 hours and the first to fly "blind,"
relying only on flight instruments to take off and land.

        For the U.S. military, he played a pivotal role in creating the
Air Force in 1947.  In between breaking speed and other aviation records,
Doolittle was awarded the Medal of Honor.

        "You could say he was the first president of the Air Force," said
Col. Doug Kennett, an Air Force spokesman.

        After a service at the Fort Myer Memorial Chapel, Doolittle's
flag-draped coffin was placed on a military caisson.  Drawn by six
horses, the caisson traveled down a winding road from the chapel to
the grave.  Leading the entourage was the U.S. Air Force Band and 50
honor guards; hundreds of mourners followed the caisson.

        After a brief graveside service, one of the Doolittle Raiders
tried to play taps in honor of his former leader.

        But retired Col. Bill Bower, who had been the pilot on the No. 12
bomber (there were 16 bombers that flew the mission), could manage only a
few faltered notes before having the pass the bugle to Doolittle's great-
grandson.

        Paul D. Crane Jr., wearing his hair in a pigtail that was out of
place among the crew cuts, then finished taps, flawlessly.

Notes:
[*1] Ray Ostlie arrived as crewmember on board the Wing's B-25, Miss
     Mitchell.  Ray is also the crew chief of the original Miss Mitchell
     in Corsica and Italy, 1944-1945.  His name also appears on the side
     of the aircraft in exactly the same way it did 50 years ago.

[*2] Aircraft fly-by order: 4 F-16s, flying missing man; 4 F-15s, the C-141,
     a B-1 and Miss Mitchell.  [Added note: Although the only non-active
     duty military aircraft in the fly-by, she was also the first civilian
     aircraft to _ever_ take part in a military fly-by at Arlington.]

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
[email-masked]                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 07:14:24 -0400
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: USAAF 2-4 OCT 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  F4U, Vought Corsair (USN)
  L-4, Piper Cub/Grasshopper
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  Zeke, Mitsubishi A6M, Navy Type 0 Carrier Fighter

SATURDAY, 2 OCTOBER 1943

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 5 P-40's dive-bomb and strafe Yangtze River
shipping in the Chiuchiang, China area. Strafing damages several small
craft.
  HQ 51st Fighter Group transfers from Dinjan, India to Kunming, China and
is reassigned from the Tenth to Fourteenth Air Force.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): VIII Bomber Command
Mission 106: 349 B-17's are dispatched to the industrial area of Emden,
Germany; led by 2 B-17 pathfinders, 339 hit the target at 1557-1603 hours;
they claim 15-6-12 Luftwaffe aircraft; 2 B-17's are lost and 34 damaged;
casualties are 2 WIA and 21 MIA. The B-17's are escorted by 227 P-47's who
claim 5-3-1 Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 P-47 is damaged. In addition to the
above, 21 B-24's are dispatched to Woensdrecht Airfield, The Netherlands;
the target is obscured by clouds and the mission is aborted.
  VIII Air Support Command Mission 75: 72 B-26's are dispatched to the St
Omer/Longuenesse Airfield in France; because of cloud cover, only 6 hit the
target at 1715 hours; the remainder refrain from bombing because the target
is in occupied territory; 12 B-26's are damaged; casualties are 1 KIA and
4 WIA.
  VIII Bomber Command Mission 107: 2 B-17's join the Royal Air Force (RAF)
in a night mission to Munich; no losses or casualties.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): Brigadier General
Gordon P Saville becomes Commanding General, XII Fighter Command. Weather
curtails operations. In Italy, fighter-bombers of the XII Air Support Command
attack motor transport, roads, and bridges during armed reconnaissance
missions from the Volturno Valley N to Isernia and W to Benevento.
  The 64th and 65th Fighter Squadrons, 57th Fighter Group, transfer from
Rocco Bernardo to Foggia, Italy with P-40's.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): 6 B-25's join
US Navy dive bombers in attacking Hamberi Cove barge hideout near Vila on
Kolombangara Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): On New Britain
Island, B-25's strafe villages in the Talasea area and barges off Gasmata
Island; B-26's bomb Hoskins Airfield; and a B-24 bombs Cape Gloucester
Airfield. Other B-24's bomb Amboina Island in the Moluccas Islands.
Australian forces take the town and harbor of Finschhafen and prepare to take
nearby commanding positions still held by the Japanese.
  The 6th Troop Carrier Squadron transfers from Port Moresby, New Guinea to
Garbutt Field, Townsville, Queensland, Australia with C-47's.

SUNDAY, 3 OCTOBER 1943

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 7 P-40's damage a 250-ft (76.2 m)
vessel on the Yangtze River near Chiuchiang; 4 P-38's bomb Chiuchiang docks;
6 B-24's damage a 100-ft (30.5 m) coastal freighter off Tonkon Point on
Hainan Island.
  A detachment of the 76th Fighter Squadron, 23d Fighter Group, based at
Hengyang, China begins operating from Suichwan, China with P-40's.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): VIII Air Support Command
Missions 76, 77 and 78:
  1. 36 B-26's are dispatched to the Lille/Vendeveille Airfield in France
but weather prevents their hitting the target.
  2. 131 of 144 B-26's dispatched to Amsterdam/Schiphol (71 aircraft),
Woensdrecht (34 aircraft) and Haamstede (26 aircraft) Airfields in the
Netherlands hit their targets at 1120-1136 hours; 47 B-26's are damaged.
  3. 72 B-26's are dispatched to Beauvais/Tille Airfield, France; 63 hit
the target at 1724-1727 hours; 1 B-26 is lost and 27 damaged.
  Total casualties for all missions are 5 WIA.
  The 153d Liaison Squadron, 67th Observation Group, transfers from Keevil
to Membury, England with A-20's and L-4's.
  The 328th, 329th, 330th and 409th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), 93d
Bombardment Group (Heavy), cease operating from Oudna, Tunisia and return
to their base at Hardwick, England with B-24's.
  The 564th, 565th, 566th and 567th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), 389th
Bombardment Group (Heavy), cease operating from Massicault, Tunisia and
return to their base at Hethel, England with B-24's.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, XII
Bomber Command B-26's, B-25's, and P-38's bomb railroad, highway, and
pontoon bridges, an overpass, and road junction at Capua, Castel Volturno,
Piana, Arce, Mignano, and Isernia; P-38's also hit shipping between Corsica
and Italy. XII Bomber Command fighter-bombers hit motor transport in the
battle area as US Fifth Army troops take Benevento.
  HQ 82d Fighter Group and it's 95th, 96th and 97th Fighter Squadrons
transfer from Grombalia, Tunisia to San Pancrazio, Italy with P-38's.
  HQ 313th Troop Carrier Group and it's 29th Troop Carrier Squadron
transfer from Sciacca to Trapani/Milo Airfield, Sicily with C-47's.
  HQ 321st Bombardment Group (Medium) and it's 445th, 446th and 447th
Bombardment Squadrons (Medium) transfer from Soliman, Tunisia to
Grottaglie, Italy with B-25's.
  HQ 324th Fighter Group and it's 314th, 315th and 316th Fighter Squadrons
transfer from El Haouaria to Menzel Heurr, Tunisia with P-40's. These units
have been regrouping since Jul 43.
  Detachments of the 512th, 513th and 514th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy),
376th Bombardment Group (Heavy), based at Enfidaville, Tunisia begin
operating from Bengasi, Libya with B-24's.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): P-39's strafe
several barges W of Choiseul Island in the Solomon Islands.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): B-25's continue
to hit barges along the W coast of New Britain Island in the Bismarck
Archipelago.
  The 431st Fighter Squadron, 475th Fighter Group, ceases operating from
Port Moresby and returns to it's base at Dobodura, New Guinea with P-38's.

MONDAY, 4 OCTOBER 1943

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 17 Japanese bombers and 25 Zekes attack
Kweilin Airfield, China. The bombs, dropped from 20,000 feet (6,096 m),
fail to hit the target. AAF fighters fail to make effective contact with
the force.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): VIII Bomber Command
Mission 108: 4 targets in Germany and a diversion are flown. 12 B-17's and
4 B-24's are lost.
  1. 104 B-17's are dispatched to the Wiesbaden industrial area; 15
aircraft hit Wiesbaden and 77 hit the industrial area at Frankfurt at
1059-1105 hours; they claim 19-3-15 Luftwaffe aircraft; 5 B-17's are lost
and 45 damaged; casualties are 2 KIA, 8 WIA and 40 MIA.
  2. 37 of 51 B-17's dispatched to Frankfurt hit the target at 1110-1111
hours; they claim 18-8-22 Luftwaffe aircraft; 3 B-17's are lost and 35
damaged; casualties are 1 KIA, 2 WIA and 30 MIA.
  3. 115 B-17's are dispatched to the Saarlautern industrial area; 67 hit
Saarlautern and 38 hit St Dizier/Robinson Airfield in France at 1136-1148
hours; they claim 37-7-7 Luftwaffe aircraft; 4 B-17's are lost, 4 are
damaged beyond repair and 19 damaged; casualties are 6 WIA and 29 MIA.
  4. 47 of 53 B-17's dispatched hit Sarreguemnines and Saarbrucken
marshalling yards at 1133-1139 hours; 2 B-17's are damaged; no casualties.
  5. 38 B-24's fly a diversion; they claim 13-6-3 Luftwaffe aircraft; 4
B-24's are lost and 19 damaged; casualties are 11 WIA and 43 MIA.
  These missions are escorted by 223 P-47's; they claim 19-1-2 Luftwaffe
aircraft; 1 P-47 is damaged beyond repair and 15 damaged; casualties are 1
KIA.
  VIII Air Support Command Mission 79: 25 B-26's are dispatched to
Beauvais/Nivilliers and Evreux/Fauville Airfield in France; they return to
base without bombing.
  VIII Bomber Command Mission 109: 4 B-17's drop 240,352 leaflets over
Paris between 2257-2307 hours.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, 100+ XII
Bomber Command B-17's bomb the Pisa marshalling yard and Bolzano bridges;
B-25's and B-26's attack the airfield at Argos, road defiles at Terracina
and Isernia, a highway overpass at Mignano, and shipping at Bastia;
Northwest African Tactical Bomber Force (NATBF) aircraft hit road and rail
junctions on the main road N from Capua; XII Air Support Command
fighter-bombers hit trains, roads, railroads, and vehicles near Isernia,
Avezzano, Pescara, and Isolella. The Allies now have complete control of
Corsica.
  The 5th Photographic Squadron (Light), Twelfth Air Force, based at La
Marsa, Tunisia begins operating from Pontecagnano, Italy with F-5's.
  The 87th Fighter Squadron, 79th Fighter Group, transfers from Crotone to
Salsola, Italy with P-40's.
  The 94th Fighter Squadron, 1st Fighter Group, based at Mateur, Tunisia
sends a detachment to Gambut, Libya with P-38's.
  The 448th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 321st Bombardment Group
(Medium), transfers from Soliman, Tunisia to Grottaglie, Italy with B-25's.
  "A" Flight of the 15th Photographic Squadron (Heavy), 3d Photographic
Reconnaissance and Mapping Group, based at La Marsa, Tunisia sends a
detachment to Grottaglie, Italy with B-17's and F-5's. "B" and "C" Flights
are still in the US.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, 23 B-24's, covered by 16 P-38's and several US Navy F4U's, bomb
Kahili Airfield on Bougainville Island; 20-30 fighters intercept, and a
running battle occurs between Bougainville and Vella Lavella Island; US
fighters and bombers claim 9 fighters downed; no American losses are
suffered. 4 P-39's and 4 F4U's sink 18 barges in a strike along the W coast
of Choiseul Island. The P-39's are especially effective because of their
nose cannon.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): B-25's bomb and
strafe barges, small craft, and villages on Vitu Island in the Bismarck
Archipelago.
  The 22d Troop Carrier Squadron, 374th Troop Carrier Group, transfers from
Port Moresby, New Guinea to Garbutt Field, Townsville, Queensland, Australia
with C-47's.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
 Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 06:47:21 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WWII Memorabilia

Dear Jon,

Yes, they are worth something. The photographs that could be made
from those negatives would be excellent material for a book on
General Patton and/or combat situations involving the 3rd Army. Think
about that. I am certain that with guidance you could produce an
interesting book on General Patton.

I take it that these were personal photos and not made under the
auspices of the Army.

Please let me know what you think.

Terry Moore

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 08:20:00 EST
From:    "W. C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <[email-masked]>
Subject: More on photos

This discussion of photos prompts me to put a question to the list
on propriety.

When my aunt passed away, we were going thru boxes of stuff she had
gotten at various antique sales and flea markets.  In the bottom of
one box we found a photo album.

We were going to toss it out but closer examination shows it to be
what looks like a collection of photos recounting a Japanese soldier's
career in the military in WWII.  The album starts with pictures of the
family, and then what appears to be basic training exercises.  Then
there are photos of the Manchurian campaign, and near the end, some
photos of Hirohito and Tojo, close up.  All the captions are in Japanese,
hand lettered.  The photos are in rather good shape.

Curently the album is being liiked over by someone fluent in Japanese
to get explicit translations of the captions, but they told me that
this appears to be a personal documentary.

If this is the property of a Japanese soldier, I am hoping to track
down the owner, or his family, and return it to them.  I would imagine
it has some real sentimental value in this regard.

What would be a good lead on an initial contact in Japan to find the
family of this soldier?  Any ideas?

Bill
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 07:48:59 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: More on photos

Dear Bill,

It seems to me that the liklihood of that Japanese soldier being
alive after all these years would be nil. It seems to me that they
would have been confiscated from the soldier after his demise.

Me feeling is that you could try, but, if the search proves
unfruitful, then consider having them published. Any such material
would be highly sought after since it had never before been
published. If there aren't enough of them for a book, then perhaps for
an article.

What are your thoughts?

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 09:00:21 LCL
From:    Tom Shirhall <[email-masked]>
Subject: AP Account of Funeral

Miss Mitchell got top billing from AP

AP in the Washington Times

             LONE B-25 JOINS AIR SALUTE TO DOOLITTLE

     Ge. James H. "Jimmy" Doolittle, the aviation pioneer and World
War II hero, was buried at Arlington National Cemetery yesterday in
a service with full military honors.

     After a memorial service at nearby Fort Myer Memorial Chapel,
the casket, covered with an American flag, was carried atop a
horse-drawn caisson to a hillside grave site framed by a row of
tall oaks, a grove of pines and a large maple.

     Defense Secretary Les Aspin and Gen. Merrill McPeak, the Air
Force chief of staff, stood side by side at the grave site and
greeted the procession, which included Gen. Doolittle's son,
retired Air. Force Col. John P. Doolittle, and his wife Priscilla,
as well as three grandchildren and five great-grandchildren.

     The Doolittle plot is in a section of the cemetery just below
the Unknowns. Nearby is the grave of Michael John Smith, the pilot
of the space shuttle Challenger.

     Gen. Doolittle, who died at the age of 96 of a stroke Monday
in California, is best known for leading "Doolittle's Raiders" in
a daring bombing on Tokyo and other Japanese cities in April 1942.
It made him a household name in America.

     The 16 B-25 bombers were launched from the decks of the
aircraft carried Hornet about 650 miles from Tokyo. Seventy of the
82 crew members survived and returned to the United States, even
though most had to bail out before reaching their landing zone in
China. Some of the survivors attended the funeral.

     In 1942, Gen. Doolittle received the Medal of Honor, the
nation's highest military decoration, for "personal valor and
intrepidity at an extreme hazard to life."

     A highlight of yesterday's service was the Air Force flyover,
a ceremonial tribute marked by the appearance of a restored B-25
bomber that was brought in from Minnesota.

     Four F-16 fighters streaked across the brilliant blue sky,
followed by four F-15 jets in the "missing man" formation. They
were trailed by a C-141 cargo plane, B1-B bomber in a low level
fly-by. Finally the B-25 soared by and dipped a wing.

     Gen. Doolittle was given a 21 gun salute.

     Gen. McPeak said afterward that Gen. Doolittle was an aviation
pioneer whose contributions to military aviation went far beyond
the heroism of his wartime services.

     "The Air Force exists today in good part because of Jimmy
Doolittle," he said.

Four column picture of family at gravesite with Col. Doolittle
wearing a tie with aviator's wings as the pattern

Tom Shirhall            [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 09:58:10 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WW2 Urban Legends/Folklore

> Folks,
>
> This talk of WW2 ghosts is interesting.  When I worked at the Pima Air
> Museum in Tucson Arizona we had a B-29 on static display that had
> actually seen combat over Japan.
>
> People were always stopping the staff and asking "is this the haunted
> B-29".....evidently at some air museum a B-29 is always found by the
> arriving staff with all its hatches, windows open...things moved etc. at
> opening in the morning even though the plane is in a locked area.
>
> We never had anything like this happen to our B-29.  Has anyone heard of
> another "haunted" aircraft at a static museum.

We've purposely haunted our B-25.  By restoring as perfectly and accurately
as possible, we put the memories and experiences of the men who flew on
board her back into the aircraft.  You gotta listen closely, but you can
hear their stories...

One of the reasons I like the fact we call ourselves "The Ghost Squadron."

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
[email-masked]                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 10:28:11 -0400
From:    "M. Joseph Barone" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WW2 Urban Legends/Folklore

        Max's story of a haunted B-29 reminded me of a movie from the
early 1970s, "Sole Survivor".  I believe it starred Richard Basehart.
The premise is that the present-day (~1970) USAF finds a downed B-17
in the North African desert and they open an inquiry about it since
the only survivor of the craft (Basehart, now a general) said that
the craft went down in the Med.  The audience can see the spirits of
the nine aviators trying to help the AF solve the mystery.  As a kid,
it gave me goosebumps.  I haven't seen it since, so the movie may not
have passed the test of time.
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
We are holding ourselves in reserve in case the Krauts mount a
counteroffensive that threatens Paris or, uh, New York.  Then we
can move in and stop them.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 10:32:43 -0400
From:    "M. Joseph Barone" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: REF: Volume 14 of the series _Militaerfahrzeuge_

> BTW, Some of you old WWII-Lers may remember an argument I made about
> the "(official) names of panzers".  Volume 14 carefully takes care
> of that problem!  Names are collected from various documents and
> listed with date.  For example, Panzer IV/70 was called by ~20
> different names.  Fuehrer's order was to call it _Panzer IV lang_
> (on July 18th, 1944).

So, Akira, what's the resolution to that Panzer VI tank destroyer
that debutted at Kursk?  Is it a Ferdinand or an Elefant?  Thanks.
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
Matelin: They think you're General DeGaulle.
General: DeGaulle? He's not even in this war!

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 11:06:40 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WW2 Urban Legends/Folklore

Dear Joe,

That sounds like a take-off on the "Lady-Be-Good" story. That
particular B-17 was found in the 1960's. The coffee found on board
was still drinkable. The crew abandoned the aircraft thinking they
were over water.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 11:08:36 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: REF: Military History Institute Refbibs.

Larry,

Did you get my messages? Will try again, after I hear from you.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 11:10:27 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: AP Account of Funeral

Tom,

Thank you for that article. It sure makes me wish I could have been
there.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 11:35:59 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <[email-masked]>
Subject: (American) diplomatic history net?

Does anyone know of a usergroup/net devoted to (American) diplomatic
  history?  (and/or just American diplomacy?)

Thanks for any help.

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 13:31:13 -0400
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Jimmy Doolittle

SUBJ:  AIR FORCE NEWS SERVICE FEATURES
ELECTRONIC BULLETIN BOARD FILENAME:  193OCT 01
THIS MESSAGE IN ONE PART
THIS PACKAGE CONTAINS 6 FEATURES
     This electronic features package is published semi-monthly, on the 1st
and 15th of each month, by the Air Force News Agency, 1015 Billy
Mitchell Rd., Kelly AFB, TX, 78241-5601.
&          &          &
&          &          &
&          &          &
105.  GEN. JIMMY DOOLITTLE:  LESSON AND LEGACY --  A
tribute to the late World War II legacy who taught some very valuable
lessons.
AFNEWSIIOP105  GEN. JIMMY DOOLITTLE:  LESSON AND
LEGACY
BY LT. COL. KATIE CUTLER, IMA
AIR FORCE NEWS AGENCY, KELLY AFB, TEXAS
     "Our boy's dead," said the president of the senior citizens center,
speaking softly into the ear of Myfanwy Schmid as she prepared her
music at the piano for the luncheon program.
     Indeed, the death at 96 of Gen. Jimmy Doolittle, on Sept. 27, was felt
with the same sadness usually reserved for a family member.  The kinship
of a generation to one of America's true heroes, the leader of the famous
April 18, 1942, raid on Tokyo that kindled the country's winning spirit in
World War II, was not just a case of clinging to long-ago memories.
     At the Golden Gate Senior Center in San Francisco, many 50-year-old
memories of General Doolittle had been refreshed in the past year by one
of their own, a member of the eighty-something generation.
     It's a story of how sharing the Air Force mission and history with
neighbors and family extends our reach.  As surely as the KC-10
Extender enables fighters and bombers and transport aircraft to extend
their reach to faraway spots on the globe, explaining Air Force victories,
or passing along an article of interest to civilian friends, can extend the
understanding of the role of our service in the nation's defense.
     That's how the seniors at Golden Gate came to develop their sense of
family with Jimmy Doolittle, although they never met.  To mark the 50th
anniversary of the Tokyo raid, Airman magazine ran a brief retrospective
of the general (April 1992), which I had based on his autobiography, "I
Could Never Be So Lucky Again."  Sharing anecdotes and finally the
printed article with my mother piqued her interest until she borrowed the
book herself.  She admired his intelligence, his bravery, his role in the
birth of the Air Force and his love for his family, particularly his wife,
Joe.
     And soon the reach was extended.  Myfanwy Schmid made her first
presentation on the life of Jimmy Doolittle to the Golden Gate Senior
Center as part of a Veteran's Day program in November a year ago.
     The life of this aerospace pioneer sparked an interest in all who heard
my mother's report.  She polished the story of Doolittle and took it on
the road, so to speak.  To a series of senior centers, to church groups and
social organizations.  Altogether, she has spoken to several hundred
people in more than half a dozen organizations.
    A visit to her church meant talking about Doolittle and the Air Force
with choir members.  A mention of the Tokyo Raid on network television
brought phone calls to my mother to make sure she had caught the
program.  An exciting chapter in Air force history that had been all but
forgotten by hundreds of people who had lived through World War II as
adults was re-taught by this retired school teacher.
     One of her new goals is to have a postage stamp to honor him.  "If
they can have one for Elvis, they surely can have one for Doolittle," she
says pointedly.
     When word of Jimmy Doolittle's death in nearby Pebble Beach
reached the Golden Gate senior Center, Myf Schmid was hard at work
on the program for this year's Veteran's Day program.  She had already
planned a moment of silence in memory of all who have served their
country.  One more veteran will be added to their prayers this year, their
"boy," Gen. Jimmy Doolittle.  (AFNS Features.)
&          &          &
&          &          &
&          &          &
--

      // \\
    //     \\                    Air Force News Agency
   |         |               Kelly Air Force Base, Texas, USA
   \\  {*}  //                   [email-masked]
   \  CMSgt  /      ___________________ /____________________________________
   \  Mike   /
   \ Bergman /
     \     /

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 13:36:47 -0400
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Regensburg and Schweinfurt

SUBJ:  AIR FORCE NEWS SERVICE FEATURES
ELECTRONIC BULLETIN BOARD FILENAME:  193OCT 01
&          &          &
&          &          &
&          &          &
AFNEWSIIOP110  WORLD WAR II:  SCHWEINFURT-
REGENSBURG RAIDS
BY W. STUART HARRIS, AIR FORCE HISTORICAL RESEARCH
AGENCY
MAXWELL, AFB, ALABAMA
     Half a century ago, the United States Eighth Air Force conducted its
largest daylight bombing raid over Germany to that time.  The historian of
the 91st Bombardment Group (Heavy) wrote, "The target required a deeper
penetration and more time over enemy territory than any mission yet assigned
to the entire Eighth Air Force."
     Committed to precision bombing, American military leaders had sought a
vital target, a vulnerable spot in the Nazi war machine.  As part of
Operation Pointblank, an attempt to break the power of the Luftwaffe, the
U.S. Army Air Forces planned virtually simultaneous raids on the German
ball-bearing industry at Schweinfurt and the Messerschmitt aircraft complex
at Regensburg.
     On the morning of 17 Aug 43, 376 B-17 Flying Fortresses departed the
United Kingdom for the two-pronged raid deep into Germany.  P-47 Thunderbolt
and Royal Air Force Spitfire fighters escorted these bombers across the
English Channel.  Unfortunately, soon after crossing the Channel, the
fighters reached their range and returned to their bases, leaving the
bombers to continue unescorted.  Prior to reaching the target area, German
Bf-109s and FW-190s continually attacked the Flying Fortresses.
     At Regensburg, the Eighth AF bombers dropped 300 tons of bombs,
severely damaging the Messerschmitt works while destroying numerous
new fighters.  Bombing was less accurate at Schweinfurt, but the B-17s
did make 80 bomb hits on the ball-bearing factories.  Unfortunately, the
raids cost the Eighth AF 60 bombers, 16 percent of those launched.
Approximately 85 percent of the losses were to enemy fighters.
     Almost two months later, on 14 Oct 43, the Eighth AF again staged a
raid on Schweinfurt, dropping 483 tons of bombs which extensively
damaged the German ball-bearing industry.  But, the Eighth lost 60
additional Flying Fortresses, just under 20 percent of its force.  Well over
half of the losses were to German fighters.
     The Regensburg and Schweinfurt raids produced valuable lessons that
the U.S. Army Air Forces successfully applied to the strategic bombing
campaign.  The high losses convinced the leaders of the U.S. Air Forces
to end unescorted daylight bombing raids into Germany as a general
practice.  To provide the needed escorts, the Army Air Forces developed
external gasoline tanks which could be released as soon as the fuel was
consumed.  These extended the range of P-51 escorts, allowing them to
accompany bombers all the way to their targets.  Protected by escorts,
American bombers probed deep into Germany, forcing the dispersal of
German factories.  This dispersal caused a temporary but serious decline
in German industrial production.
     More important strategic bombing paralyzed German transportation
and seriously attrited the growing number of fighters assigned to air
defense, contributing to the collapse of the German War Machine.
(AFNS Features.)
--
      // \\
    //     \\                    Air Force News Agency
   |         |               Kelly Air Force Base, Texas, USA
   \\  {*}  //                   [email-masked]
   \  CMSgt  /      ___________________ /____________________________________
   \  Mike   /
   \ Bergman /
     \     /

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 13:40:50 -0500
From:    "Sidney W. Kitchel" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: AP Account of Funeral

Terry Moore writes:
|->
|-> Tom,
|->
|-> Thank you for that article. It sure makes me wish I could have been
|-> there.

        Me too!! I even wished we got to see more on TV. They showed
the gun salute and the F-16 fly-by. But I didn't get to see Miss
Mitchell, which was a disappointment. I'm triply mad now that I didn't
get to see her when I was in St. Paul a year or so ago.

                                                        --Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel           [email-masked], [email-masked]
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 13:43:15 -0500
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WW2 Urban Legends/Folklore

In your message of  4 Oct 1993 at 1043 CDT, you write:
>         Max's story of a haunted B-29 reminded me of a movie from the
> early 1970s, "Sole Survivor".  I believe it starred Richard Basehart.
> The premise is that the present-day (~1970) USAF finds a downed B-17
> in the North African desert and they open an inquiry about it since
> the only survivor of the craft (Basehart, now a general) said that
> the craft went down in the Med.  The audience can see the spirits of
> the nine aviators trying to help the AF solve the mystery.  As a kid,
> it gave me goosebumps.  I haven't seen it since, so the movie may not
> have passed the test of time.
> --
> Joe Barone

Joe hit on another of my all time favorite movies!  Its based on the
story of the Lady Be Good, a B-24 that overflew their beacon one night
and went down in the desert.  The crew thought they were over the Med
and bailed out with rubber boats and water survival stuff.  The plane
nosed into the sand to be lost until an oil exploration company found
it during a survey.  It still had its .50 guns which meant that nobody
had yet found it till that time.

They found coffee in thermoses that was still hot and drinkable and
very little corrosion to the aircraft.  The crew got together by
firing their .45s until they all got together but one (who roman
candled into the desert - who, by the way, was the only one to go in
with a full canteen).  The Air Force investigators found him in the
while investigating the wreck and trying to find the rest of the crew.
The crew, in their diary, just mentioned that he was never found.

The crew then started out for the coast and eventually died in the
desert after several days trek.  The upshot of this story was that it
rewrote the Air Force Desert Survival manual because these men made it
farther than the manual said was humanly possible.  They had left
markers made of strips of parachute material to show the way they went
and it led the team right to them - just 20 years too late.  The main
party stayed together as they were weak and couldn't go on but three
others when further until they too died.  Two were found and the last
guy never was recovered as he continued on WELL beyond where the
manuals suggested was possible.  Truly an amazing story.  The book is
called _Lady Be Good_ and I forget the author but it has many of the
diary entries that really tell a tale.  The movie was very well done
and it gave me goosebumps too.

Bill Huber
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 15:02:10 LCL
From:    Tom Shirhall <[email-masked]>
Subject: Doolittle Funeral

Having been to three funerals of flag officers buried from the Fort Myer
Memorial Chapel, I can tell you that the events in the chapel were as moving
as the public burial. I wonder if Bob Granvin could prevail upon Sgt. Ostlie
and others who were at the service to describe it. In fact, Sgt. Ostlie
might be able to obtain a transcript of the eulogy. The military is very
obliging about this sort of thing. If you need any help, I may be able to
provide appropriate contacts.

Tom Shirhall                    [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 15:27:22 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: AP Account of Funeral

> Terry Moore writes:
> |->
> |-> Tom,
> |->
> |-> Thank you for that article. It sure makes me wish I could have been
> |-> there.
>
>         Me too!! I even wished we got to see more on TV. They showed
> the gun salute and the F-16 fly-by. But I didn't get to see Miss
> Mitchell, which was a disappointment. I'm triply mad now that I didn't
> get to see her when I was in St. Paul a year or so ago.

Well, without trying to get too consumer-centric :-), we started
working on a video about Miss Mitchell this year.  We had a camera
crew shooting footage at Arlington as well.  I'm _told_ we got good
footage, but I need to see it first.  If it's good, it's going to get
into the finished product -- But that's still something that won't
be completed until next summer.

Meanwhile, I've got a request in to CNN for a copy of their raw footage.
But even if I get it, I can't release it.  Catch-22.

On the other hand, we're going to Midland, Texas this weekend, so if
anyone is going that way... :-)

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
[email-masked]                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 15:50:01 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Doolittle Funeral

> Having been to three funerals of flag officers buried from the Fort Myer
> Memorial Chapel, I can tell you that the events in the chapel were as moving
> as the public burial. I wonder if Bob Granvin could prevail upon Sgt. Ostlie
> and others who were at the service to describe it. In fact, Sgt. Ostlie
> might be able to obtain a transcript of the eulogy. The military is very
> obliging about this sort of thing. If you need any help, I may be able to
> provide appropriate contacts.

We made more contacts than we can shake a stick at.  A "high ranking
dude" at the Pentagon literally told us to "send them our Christmas
Wish List."  :-)  The suggestion to get a transcript of the eulogy is
an excellent idea.  If you can provide contacts, I might be able to get
to it faster than Ray...

We are debriefing at Midland this week.  A full report will be available,
but it will take at least a week to 10 days before I can provide one.

I will note one thing, though -- I have NEVER seen Ray Ostlie so
ecstatic in all his life.  Although funerals are extremely somber
and military ones are very formal, they clearly did a fantastic job
of making this one not only memorable, but in a strange way,
"enjoyable."

I only wish more people could have experienced it firsthand (myself
included) and that the Associated Press had at least sent a reporter
that know what the Doolittle Raid WAS.

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
[email-masked]                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 17:00:17 EDT
From:    Jim Barr <[email-masked]>
Subject: Doolittle Funeral

Hello all,
    I was able to take time out to go down to Arlington Friday for the funeral,
but wasn't able to get very close to the ceremony itself.  I was told by the
cemetery officials that the chapel service would be packed, so I chose to try
instead to be on hand for the internment and fly-over.  I saw the procession
pass by from the chapel, and then viewed part of the graveside ceremony from
the side before moving up to the top steps of the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.
>From there I had a wonderful view of Washington and the incoming aircraft,
which went directly overhead.  Afterwards, I wound my way back out by some
random path (I don't know the layout very well) and had the fortune to pass
by Chennault's grave, which I thought of as an interesting coincidence.  But
then again, there's a lot of history there to find...
    Thanks to RJG and the rest of the Miss Mitchell crowd for their efforts at
keeping her flying.  It was wonderful to see her up there holding her own with
those "new-fangled" planes.  Later all,
                                       Jim Barr
                                       [email-masked]
                                       [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Oct 1993 01:32:59 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WW2 Urban Legends/Folklore

> They found coffee in thermoses that was still hot and drinkable and
                                          _________

> and it led the team right to them - just 20 years too late.  The main

Slightly exaggerated?

Emmanuel.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 19:36:35 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: ADMIN: Patience, please.

Your faithful list-tender has the flu. I'm monitoring the list but my
replies will be limited (or Kim will hide my keyboard!) so please be
patient while waiting for answers back from me. Urgent help matters handled
first and ASAP as always, other matters deferred but not forgotten.

Thanks,
Larry J

[email-masked]; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 21:15:50 -0300
From:    Mike Bechthold <[email-masked]>
Subject: REF: New Journal!

I've had quite a few responses to this post so I thought I would post the
subscription information to the entire group.

In the U.S. a one year subscription is $14US plus $5 shipping and handling
In Canada, a one year subscription is $15 CAN and a 2 year subscription is $28
In the U.K. a one year subscription is 8 pounds sterling plus 5 pounds
shipping and handling.

For a limited time a free copy of the premier issue of CMH will be added
to each paid subscription.

Send a cheque or money order payable to Wilfrid Laurier University to:

Canadian Military History
Wilfrid Laurier University
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA
N2L 3C5

Hi,

I want to announce to the group a new journal that may interest some.

"Canadian Military History" is a biannual publication out of Wilfrid
Laurier University in Waterloo, Ontario, Canada.  It has been described by
reviewers as a "Journal-in-a-Magazine-format".  We are combining articles
written by professional historians, veterans and others with original
documents such as after-action reports and book reviews.  The
magazine is generously illustrated with photographs, paintings and maps.
Any and all topics in Canadian military history will be covered starting
with the earliest times and continuing right up to the present.  Due to
interest and availability of material, a large portion of the journal will
be devoted to Second World War topics.  For example, our Autumn 1993 issue
contains a special section devoted to the Italian Campaign, 1943-1945
while the Spring 1994 issue will commemorate the 50th anniversary of
Operation Overlord with a special section on the Normandy Campaign.

An example of the some of the topics covered to date are:

The Battle of Vimy Ridge (April 1917) and the Vimy Memorial
Operation "Spring" (Canadian attack on Verrieres Ridge, July 1944)
The Experiences of a Canadian Soldier in the Great War
Canadian and British Destroyer action in the English Channel, 10 June 44
Military Intervention at Oka, Quebec, (Summer 1990)
British Espionage in Quebec, Winter 1759-60
Ortona, Italy, December 1943
The Battle of Amiens, August 1918
Churchill and the Historians
Hong Kong, Dec 41 - Jan 42

And much more . . .

If anyone would like more information (ie on subscriptions or becoming
a contributer) please email me at the address below,

Mike Bechthold
Wilfrid Laurier University
Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 21:45:39 -0400
From:    Bob Smart <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: More on photos

> This discussion of photos prompts me to put a question to the list
> on propriety.
>
> When my aunt passed away, we were going thru boxes of stuff she had
> gotten at various antique sales and flea markets.  In the bottom of
> one box we found a photo album.
>
> We were going to toss it out but closer examination shows it to be
> what looks like a collection of photos recounting a Japanese soldier's
> career in the military in WWII.  The album starts with pictures of the
> family, and then what appears to be basic training exercises.  Then
> there are photos of the Manchurian campaign, and near the end, some
> photos of Hirohito and Tojo, close up.  All the captions are in Japanese,
> hand lettered.  The photos are in rather good shape.
>
> Curently the album is being liiked over by someone fluent in Japanese
> to get explicit translations of the captions, but they told me that
> this appears to be a personal documentary.
>
> If this is the property of a Japanese soldier, I am hoping to track
> down the owner, or his family, and return it to them.  I would imagine
> it has some real sentimental value in this regard.
>
> What would be a good lead on an initial contact in Japan to find the
> family of this soldier?  Any ideas?
>
> Bill
> [email-masked]

You might start with the Military Attache at the Japanese Embassy in
Washington.  If you have a name they may be able to trace it down or put you in
contact with a veterans organization who could.  If it is impossible to trace
down the Individual you may want to consider donating it to a Museum either in
the States or in Japan.  Good Luck and let us know what happens.

Bob Smart ([email-masked])

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 3 Oct 1993 to 4 Oct 1993
***********************************************