Subject: WWII-L Digest - 26 Oct 1993 to 27 Oct 1993

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1993 00:03:12 -0400

There are 24 messages totalling 796 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. NOST: First WWII book (7)
  2. Bataan Death March
  3. Patton One-Upping Monty (3)
  4. Listserver problems?
  5. Patton one-upping Monty
  6. Nost: First Books
  7. Plane GIF's now available (2)
  8. INF: Operation MARKET
  9. MISC: DECUS symposium (2)
 10. Allied Air Campaign in Europe (fwd)
 11. NOST:  First WW2 Books
 12. My first WWII book
 13. WANT: 8th AF B-17 crews (43-45) for interviews
 14. Monty's Move into Holland

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Oct 1993 06:48:27 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: NOST: First WWII book

Larry,

Absolutely, but probably one of the best one-volume works dealing
with the Third Reich in all its aspects. It is however in need of
revision and updating in light of recent research.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Oct 1993 07:56:52 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Bataan Death March

On Tue, 26 Oct 1993 14:08:17 GMT-6 Terry Moore said:
>Thank you for the response. Your comment also makes me wonder about
>the fate and whereabouts of the Army nurses that were stationed on
>Corregidor. Granted, these were US Army personnel, but I wonder how
>many are alive and willing to talk about this episode in their life?

I'd particularly like to know if the author of =They Were Expendable= ever
got back together with his nurse from Corregidor, or even just if she
survived at all.  A minor point, but I've always wondered. . . .

ken koester
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Oct 1993 07:04:53 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: NOST: First WWII book

Bill,

Yes. 12 O'clock High has been out on video for several years now. I
am not certain of the others you mentioned.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Oct 1993 09:01:40 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Patton One-Upping Monty

Doug,
     For a competing view by an American historian, look at Eisenhower's
Lieutenants by Russell Weigley.  He thinks MARKET-GARDEN was a good concept,
and blames Browning and others for poor tactical execution. Weigley gives Monty
credit for aggressiveness and initiative, two qualities Americans usually don't
attribute to this particular general.

                                        LTC Con Crane
                                        USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Oct 1993 07:10:00 -0400
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Listserver problems?

Are we having problems with the listserver? I haven't received any mail from her
e in the last several days.

Thanks,

Kevin Kamphaus
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Oct 1993 08:47:17 -0500
From:    John Lundstrom <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Patton one-upping Monty

Regarding Bill Thacker's comments on Monty at the Ardennes, probably one of
the best things he did during the war was his quick realization of the threat
to Antwerp and his swift positioning of the XXX Corps to cover the Meuse.
Reading the account on the Ardennes in the third volume of Nigel Hamilton's
biography--Monty: The Field Marshall 1944-1976--was a real eye opener to one
brought up on the US histories.

A friend of mine constructed a regimental level war game for Bulge which gives
the whole front from Luxembourg to the North Sea, thus the whole 21st Army
Group as well as the 12th. It really shows how hard it would have been to
disengage the forces north of the Bulge had the Germans made a swift break-
through over the Meuse toward Brussels. Monty's commitment of XXX Corps
as a backstop virtually shut the door.

I give this as grudging admiration of Monty, as in most regards I think he
was far inferior to Patton as a battlefield commander. Unfortunately I think
Bradley has been over-rated, particularly in light of his performance in the
opening stages of Bulge.

John Lundstrom  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Oct 1993 10:18:29 EST
From:    Mike Long <[email-masked]>
Subject: Nost: First Books

 The first books that I weened on were the Winston Churchill "History of WWII"
(????). I'm not exactly sure of title, it is two large volumes crammed with
pictures, paintings, maps & drawings. As a matter of fact I'm gonna have to go
to Pop's house and dig them out again.

MIKE LONG
UNIVERSITY OF CONNECTICUT
196 AUDITORIUM ROAD, U-138    |   BITNET: [email-masked]
STORRS, CONNECTICUT, USA      | INTERNET: [email-masked]
                   06269-3138 |    PHONE: (203) 486-1352

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Oct 1993 10:24:26 EST
From:    Mike Long <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Plane GIF's now available

Hey gang,

Whats a MEPIT????

>>       B17             B24             B25             B26             BF109
>>       F4U             HE111           KATE1           LANCAST         MEPIT
>>       P38             P40             P47             P51             PBY
>>       TDB1
MIKE LONG
UNIVERSITY OF CONNECTICUT
196 AUDITORIUM ROAD, U-138    |   BITNET: [email-masked]
STORRS, CONNECTICUT, USA      | INTERNET: [email-masked]
                   06269-3138 |    PHONE: (203) 486-1352

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Oct 1993 10:05:53 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: NOST: First WWII book

>
> Larry,
>
> Absolutely, but probably one of the best one-volume works dealing
> with the Third Reich in all its aspects. It is however in need of
> revision and updating in light of recent research.

  Very good for its time, but I agree that a volume two would be nice,
hopefully without revision of the original. I've always felt that a book
reflects the attitudes of the times (otherwise it fails to "sell") and
so am averse to "revisions." Even errors, when honestly made, have value
for the analyst.

  Happily, I have a second edition of Shirer's book and so any "tinkering"
done in the future won't affect my copy.

  Didn't we talk about this in regards to J.F.C. Fuller's books, re the
"correction" of his political views in later editions?

  BTW, in case anyone needs an excuse to hate me, I'm taking Gordon Mork's
'Hitler and Germany in the Twentieth Century' and Guenther Rothenberg's
'History of the Art of War' in Europe next semester :-).

Larry J

[email-masked]; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Oct 1993 11:11:46 EDT
From:    Doug McCabe <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: Operation MARKET

                   Ohio University Electronic Communication

   Date:  27-Oct-1993 10:42am EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"[email-masked]" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject:  INF: Operation MARKET

    Going through G-2 Reports from HQ of the 82nd A/B Div I came across the
    following pieces attached to the 21 Oct 1944 report.

    _Translation of A Captured German Document_

    Document found on PW of 2nd Co 1052nd Regt, 21 Oct 1944.

    _THE FUEHRER'S SPEECH IN 1950_

         Now that England and Ireland are under the protection of the
    Greater German Reich and my old comrad HERMAN GOERING has been
    appointed "Czar of Russia," Roosevelt has firmly agreed to offer us the
    United States as a German colony.  Also France has found her home in
    the Greater Reich.  Now that our Japanese friends have finally
    established the German-Japanese boundaries, we can consider that
    chapter finished.  There will be no more European surprises.

         I do not want to slight those men who have so faithfully and
    unselfishly served the cause:

         They are: Obersturmfuhrer PETAIN,
                   SA Oberbrigadefuhrer CHURCHILL
              and what many would not have thought possible
                   SS Understurmfuhrer STALIN,
    who at the present time is orienting himself to our way of living at
    the ORDENSBERG in SONDHOFEN.

         My greatest thanks belong beyond a doubt to the head of the
    Catholic Church, my dear party member ROSENBERG, now POPE PIUS XXV.

         In rememberance of the late GAULEITER of India, party member
    GHANDI, I beg you to stand up from your seats.

         I thank you!

         The Great Mufti of JERUSALEM, party member GOEBBLES, sends the
    hearty congratulations of the Arabia people.  With deep appreciation I
    appoint him "CHIEF RABBI" of Palestine and Transjordania.  I also make
    known that in mutual accord with the Czar of Russia, party member
    GOERING and after conferences with the Holy Father in Rome, party
    member ROSENBERG, the Winter Relief program this year will start on May
    1st, so that the compatriots in Siberia will receive thier packages in
    time.

         Attention! Attention!  This is the World-Radio-Station Berlin!
    You have just heard a portion of the FUHRER'S speech, the Fuhrer of all
    nations!  ADOLF HITLER!  The FUHRER spoke from CHILI, where he is at
    present visiting his troops.  The speech will be repeated at 2300 hours
    by GAULEITER PETAIN in French and by SS-Understurmfuhrer STALIN in
    Russian.
    _____________________________________________________________

    _TRANSLATION FROM A CAPTURED GERMAN DOCUMENT_

    _This document Was Found on a PW From the 2nd Co 1052 Inf Regt on 21
    Oct 44_

    _WHAT IS LOVE?_

    Five men discuss a problem, love.  They are a doctor, a businessman, an
    engineer, a lawyer and a singer.

    The doctor says: Love is a disease during the course of which both
         parties must be put to bed.

    The businessman says: Love is a business proposition and you can get
         more out of it than you put in.

    The engineer says: Love is a movement which runs only when it stands.

    The lawyer says: Love is a law suit in which the defeated party also
         receives justice.

    The singer says: Love is a duet which later becomes a trio.

    We soldiers have found that love is something different, namely:

         Below 16 years      it is a hobby.
         From 16-20          some combat patrol activity.
         From 20-30          strength through joy.
         From 30-40          beauty of work.
         From 40-50          wonder of technique.
         From 50-60          triumph of will.
         From 60-70          technical emergency service.
         From 70-80          unnatural art.
         Over 80             So, comrade, where are you?
    _____________________________________________________________

    Doug McCabe
    [email-masked]

Received:  27-Oct-1993 11:11am

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Oct 1993 10:46:45 -0400
From:    "M. Joseph Barone" <[email-masked]>
Subject: MISC: DECUS symposium

        I realize that members of this mailing list are involved in
many types of work and are spread throughout the planet but I thought
I would ask this anyway in the hopes of getting one or two positive
responses.  I hope the moderator doesn't mind!

        Is anyone attending the DECUS symposium in San Francisco in
December?  I plan on attending but it would be great to get away from
discussing VMS, Alpha, UNIX, Windows NT, etc. and to meet some of the
members of this list and talk about *really* interesting stuff!  Thanks.
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
Big Joe: Mulligan!?  On time and on target!?  Cripes!
  Kelly: Well, Joe, there's a first time for everything.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Oct 1993 10:19:00 CDT
From:    Roger Safian <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: NOST: First WWII book

Greetings,

> Yes. 12 O'clock High has been out on video for several years now. I
> am not certain of the others you mentioned.

Are you sure about this?  I know that the movie is out on video, but I
haven't seen the series out yet.  I'm pretty sure that some of the
episodes of combat are out on video though.  I recall seeing them at
a friends house, and deciding the new member of the platoons fate.
Twisted but fun.

At any rate, if 12 O'clock High is out on video...any idea on a
source...Preferably rental.

On another subject...I recenly purchased a laserdisk player.  If you've
not had a chance to check out a movie on laserdisk, give it a whirl.
Last night I watched "Patton", letterboxed.  Double feature with
"Sparticus".  (Friends over playing games)  The picture quality is
great, and it's amazing what they cut out to put a movie on video.
Yes, Patton is standing in front of all of the American flag.

Sorry to have started another tangent...

                                              Roger

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Oct 1993 11:07:26 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Allied Air Campaign in Europe (fwd)

Sorry if this is a redundant post, I'm not sure if I forwarded it before,
but want to make sure it's been sent. Larry J

> From: [email-masked] (Eugene Beatty)
> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 93 15:46:00 -0600
> Reply-To: [email-masked] (Eugene Beatty)
>
> Dear Larry,
>
>      This is for you and for posting on WWII-L.
>
>      I am trying to find the title and author of a book I read
> several years ago that dealt with the air war in Europe during
> World War II.
>
>      The book was published, I think, in the early 1980s, maybe
> 1983 or 1984.  It was rather short.  The author had been on the
> crew of a B-17 in Europe, and survived.
>
>      The thesis of the book was that the massive bombing raids over
> Germany, which took a tremendous toll in the lives of American
> airmen, had virtually no effect on the industrial capacity of
> Germany; and, in fact, Germany's war production actually increased.
>
>      Does anyone know the title of this book or the name of the
> author?  Thanks.
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Oct 1993 12:30:12 EDT
From:    Charles Reace <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Patton One-Upping Monty

>From what I've read on the subject, it seems the entire Market-Garden
operation could have been made unnecessary, or done sooner on a smaller
scale, if Monty had captured Antwerp *and* its estuary ASAP.  Eisenhower
has been quoted as saying one of his biggest mistakes was in not insisting
that the harbor and its approach be taken immediately it was possible.

If Monty had supplies coming through there, he probably could have con-
tinued the push into the lowlands that ground to a halt prior to Market-
Garden being conceived/implemented.  There was virtually no organized
resistance in front of Monty in the lowlands in early September, but as
we all know by the time the M-G operation was launched, there was very
significant opposition.

So much for my 2 cents (before taxes) worth.

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <[email-masked]>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Oct 1993 11:26:34 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Patton One-Upping Monty

'Just think of what Northern France and Flanders would have been like in
  1944 if all the Allied commanders in the West had been a Patton!

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Oct 1993 11:39:00 CDT
From:    Bill Kupersmith <[email-masked]>
Subject: NOST:  First WW2 Books

I was a bit too young actually to remember the war itself, but
my parents had a wonderfully complete collection of National
Geographics from 1941 on ffull of photos of exotic
places where the fighting was taking place.  The advertisements
showing B-17s as built by car makers, etc., were equally fascinating.
In the late '40s (I think) General Eisenhower's memoirs Crusade
in Europe was made into a television series which I found riveting.
Victory at Sea, if I recall, was a little later.  And of course
I was lucky to be living in Houston and could actually visit the
Battleship Texas.  I cannot recall the titles of any actual books
but there was a series published in the early '40s of novels about
the merchant marine and I read everything I could find in the public
library on ships and planes.  The first book I can remember reading
was the Reader's Digest Condensed version of Trevor-Roper's Last
Days of Hitler.

--Bill Kupersmith
University of Iowa

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Oct 1993 10:22:03 -0700
From:    Leslie Linn <[email-masked]>
Subject: My first WWII book

Book:   Ernie Pile
        From the journals of a War Correspondent.

Found in my high school library, it seemed to be over a thousand pages long
and the biggest book to this day that I was determined to read cover to cover.
Started reading during my Freshman year, think I finished it during my
Jounior year.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Oct 1993 15:37:09 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: NOST: First WWII book

>
>   BTW, in case anyone needs an excuse to hate me, I'm taking Gordon Mork's
> 'Hitler and Germany in the Twentieth Century' and Guenther Rothenberg's
> 'History of the Art of War' in Europe next semester :-).

  I'm sad to say that the above should read 'History of the Art of War in
Europe' instead of the way it was written. (I liked living in Europe!)

Larry J

[email-masked]; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Oct 1993 21:46:38 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Plane GIF's now available

On Wed, 27 Oct 1993, Mike Long wrote:

> Hey gang,
> Whats a MEPIT????

The cockPIT of a MEsserschmitt 109..

Emmanuel.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Oct 1993 15:53:53 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: NOST: First WWII book

Larry,

Boy, you do know how to rub it in!! How I envy you.

I will shortly be sending you my collection. I am in the process of
adding some other pix to it, and when I am finished, it will be sent.

BTW, our wizard here is in the process of writing me a tool to get
direct access to byrd and, hopefully, I won't have to bother you
again, about getting access.

Best of luck in those courses, and how lucky can a man get?

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Oct 1993 15:58:41 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: NOST: First WWII book

Roger,

I was referring to the movie "12 O'clock High". And I also think that
I recently saw an ad for the series. Combat is also out on video, and
I would like to get that. There are some great combat scenes and fire
fights that, to my mind, are the best that Hollywood has ever
created, not to mention, the segment dealing with "The Hill" and the
problems of command, that that segment dealt with. I won't forget
that one. If you get a lead on this series, please post.

Thanks.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Oct 1993 16:15:06 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WANT: 8th AF B-17 crews (43-45) for interviews

Feel free to distribute this wherever it seems logical...

I recently received these letters from a Professor and student at a
local college (watch me find out they are list readers and I retyped
the letters for them :-).

We have a college senior seeking out 8th Air Force B-17 crews for a
project.  Although a face-to-face interview is unlikely for anything
that results from the net, I'd like to see how many people we can
dredge up for his interview needs -- after all, here we have another
convert to those who recognize the need to record personal histories
before its too late.

Do you know anyone who meets these needs?  Do you know anyone you can
pass this information along to?

If so, make sure they mention they got his name via the Internet, or
better yet, via the CAF.  :-)

So ... How much can we end up helping this guy?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear members of the Confederate Air Force:

        I am a history professor at Carleton College.  One of our students,
Mr. Peter Johnson, is working on a research project about the 8th Air Force
in the European Theater of Operations, 1943-1945.  He would very much like
to interview some veterans who flew on the B-17 bombing runs in the ETO.

        I enclose several copies of a description of Peter's project.  I
would appreciate it if you would post one or two of these around your
facility at Fleming Field and/or pass them on to people who might be
interested in being interviewed.

        If somebody is willing to be interviewed, I am sure that we can
arrange for Peter Johnson to come up to Fleming Field or some other location
in the area.  Northfield is only about 30 miles south of your headquarters.

        Please feel free to contact me if you want further information about
this project.  Many thanks for your help.

                                        Cordially yours,
                                        /s/
                                        Kirk Jeffrey
                                        Professor

office phone: (507) 663-4215
home phone:   (507) 663-1653

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                        ALL USAAF 8TH AIR FORCE VETERANS

        My name is Peter Johnson.  I am a senior majoring in History at
Carleton College in Northfield, Minnesota.  For a big research project that
I am working on, I am looking for World War II veterans to interview.

        Specifically, I am trying to write an account of a typical mission of
the 8th air Force that would have been flown between spring 1943 and spring
1945.  I hope to do this as accurately as possible.  To do so, I need
interviews with some of the men who were actually involved in this piece of
history.

        Requirements for the interviews:

        --      A person must have been a crew member (pilot, co-pilot,
                navigator, bombardier, engineer, radio operator or gunner)
                on a B-17 (any version).

        --      Must have served in the European Theater of Operations
                between May 1943 and May 1945.

        --      Must have flown at least five to seven missions in a B-17.

        Even if you do not fit the particular requirements for an interview,
any information about this topic that you might have would be greatly
appreciated.

        If you are interested or have questions about my project, please
contact me:

                Peter G. Johnson
                Carleton College
                Northfield, MN 55057

                Telephone in my dorm room: (507) 663-5003

        In the month of December you can reach me by mail:

                5240 S. Greenwood Ave.
                Chicago, IL 60615

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
[email-masked]                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Oct 1993 17:19:01 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MISC: DECUS symposium

>
>         I realize that members of this mailing list are involved in
> many types of work and are spread throughout the planet but I thought
> I would ask this anyway in the hopes of getting one or two positive
> responses.  I hope the moderator doesn't mind!

  Opportunities to meet "the face behind the screen" are rare and I have
no objection to members announcing plans that might involve such chances.
I would ask that the conversations about such trips be taken to private
mail when appropriate.

Larry J

[email-masked]; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Oct 1993 20:33:01 EDT
From:    Doug McCabe <[email-masked]>
Subject: Monty's Move into Holland

                   Ohio University Electronic Communication

   Date:  27-Oct-1993 08:32pm EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"[email-masked]" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject:  Monty's Move into Holland

    Con,

    Weigley's interpretation of MARKET-GARDEN as a good concept showing
    aggressiveness and initiative, yet suffering from poor tactical
    execution feels right.  This is all true, as far as it goes.  Browning
    and especially Thomas did lack the aggressiveness such a bold plan
    needed if it was to have any hope of success.

    S.L.A. Marshall, in an unpublished report done sometime in 1945 and
    based upon after-action reports and interviews, faults the 82nd for not
    going for the Nijmegen bridge much earlier even at the expense of
    protecting their flank before the Reichswald on the Groesbeek Heights.
    I feel this criticism was unfair for it under-represents the serious
    threats coming from the Reichswald and depreciates the possibility the
    82nd could have lost the Groesbeek Heights.  If this would have
    happened, and considering that tactical air was not available to the
    Allied ground forces in the critical first days due to weather, the
    Germans would have had a position well within shelling range of the
    bridge.  Taking the bridge is one thing: using it without harassment
    from shells or ground attack is another.  It is easy to blame the long
    time taken to get the Nijmegen bridge for the failure to get to Arnhem
    and support the British 1st Airborne and get the "last" bridge.
    Against the opposition encountered, though, the 82nd (with only
    relatively light weapons and a huge territorial assignment spreading
    them very thin) actually did an amazing job just hanging on.

    Many have criticized the slowness of the GARDEN forces, and I think
    these points are more justified.  There was too little infantry
    accompanying the armor so that reaction to opposition along the
    corridor took too long to be destroyed.  Personally, I think orders
    should have required the spearhead units to stop at nothing to reach
    the airborne units, leaving mopping up to following units.
    Interestingly, the unit that showed real initiative in finally taking
    the Nijmegen bridge was not British but American.  It was the 82nd
    which conducted a *boat* assult across the river which finally
    dislodged the Germans.  And, when that was done the British failed to
    quickly exploit the opportunity to push on even when they knew the 1st
    at Arnhem was in serious trouble.

    There are problems with the operation on other levels.  Monty did not
    really get Antwerp since he left the estuary still in the hands of the
    Germans.  He did not bottle up the Fifteenth Army but let it escape and
    provide serious opposition to the MARKET-GARDEN operation.  These were
    most serious errors and perhaps the real fatal mistakes of the
    operations in September 1944.  The largest port in northern Europe was
    unusable and sizable German units were not penned in.  For Monty to
    blame the Canadians, who were moving up the coast from the south, for
    not clearing the Antwerp area when there were British troops nominally
    available to flank the Germans and act as an anvil, must be considered
    inexcusible.  [see Monty's _Memoirs_ on this]

    A great deal has been made of the long supply lines from the beaches in
    Normandy (since the Allies still did not have a deep water port on the
    coast) and the exhausting, head long rush through France and Belgium.
    For offensive operations, supply was spotty and maintenance was
    overdue.  The troops were nearly worn out.  If supply lines were being
    outrun, why would anyone think a massive offensive aimed to take
    another 60-70 miles would work?  And, as was pointed out to me back
    channel by Peter DeLange, there was still another river to cross beyond
    Arnhem, namely the Ijssel.  Furthermore, to then turn right and get at
    the Ruhr, the offensive would have had to re-cross the Rhine in
    Germany while troops would have to be dropped off to protect the right
    and left flanks.  That's two more river crossings supported by thin
    corridors constantly threatened by counterattacks from the right flank.
    Crossing the Ijessel and re-crossing the Rhine, BTW, were never in the
    MARKET-GARDEN plan.

    If Monty had had the availability of a deep water port in operation and
    near by his plan might have succeeded.  Total priority of supplies
    coming from Normandy as he demanded, and as he complained later as
    being one of the reasons for the failure, would not in September 1944
    have provided the edge needed to win.  Remember the MARKET-GARDEN
    operation was conceived and planned in something like two weeks.
    Granted, COMET was a predecessor and similar operation, but the
    logistics problems were never ready for such an offensive and couldn't
    have been in such a short time.  Even the great white American hero and
    all around guy Patton could not have made a success of that operation.
    I think nearly all the Allied leaders knew the war would have to last
    past the winter but just didn't want to admit it.  Consequently, they
    were open to risky judgements beyond their means.  [So there! 8-}]

    Doug McCabe
    [email-masked]

    ps.  Con, the above is not to be taken as a personal attack.  It is,
    rather, an excuse to vent my own analysis of the invasion of Holland.

Received:  27-Oct-1993 08:32pm

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End of WWII-L Digest - 26 Oct 1993 to 27 Oct 1993
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