Subject: WWII-L Digest - 27 Oct 1993 to 28 Oct 1993

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1993 00:01:07 -0400

There are 15 messages totalling 392 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. First WWII Books
  2. Allied Air Campaign in Europe (fwd) (2)
  3. NOST: First WWII book (4)
  4. WANT: 8th AF B-17 crews (43-45) for interviews (2)
  5. Nost: First WW2 book
  6. Monty's Move into Holland
  7. Patton One-Upping Monty (3)
  8. Crane Conrad please read

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Date:    Thu, 28 Oct 1993 08:03:00 EST
From:    "W. C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: First WWII Books

My interest took a more 'non-conventional' route.

I first got interested in WWII after listening to Richard
Rogers "VICTORY AT SEA" albums, which made me watch the
series...which led onward and upward.

In my opinion, VICTORY AT SEA represents the most vivid
imagery of naval combat...for even if you don't see the
series, you can imagine the combat by listening to the
music.

And the circle is complete....for my birthday I was
presented with the entire Victory at Sea video set.

Never underestimate the power of music...

Other recommendations:  Spitfire Prelude and Fugue (from
the movie SPITFIRE); 633 Squadron Theme (from the movie
633 Squadron).

Bill
[email-masked]

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Date:    Thu, 28 Oct 1993 07:05:44 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Allied Air Campaign in Europe (fwd)

Dear Eugene,

I can't think of any specific title dealing with this topic, but
there are two that come to mind that suggest that the Allied
bombing of German cities had little or no effect on shortening the
war. What comes to mind specifically are:

    Inside the Third Reich by Albert Speer
    Air War by David Jablonski

There are others, but I will have to wait until I return home to
check. Will get back with you later.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

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Date:    Thu, 28 Oct 1993 07:43:37 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: NOST: First WWII book

>
> Larry,
>
> Boy, you do know how to rub it in!! How I envy you.

  It beats working for a living. I took Guenther's History of World War II
one summer. It was nice getting the course from a veteran (Guenther was in
the Jewish Brigade of the British Eighth Army in North Africa, and later
in Italy until the end of the war. He taught at Sandhurst (I think that's
the place he mentioned) and had John Keegan as a pupil. He also told us
what it like to confront a Tiger in a "Honey" tank. I was watching him
closely while he talked about this. The next day when he came into the
auditorium I had a transperancy done of a Tiger that was photographed
in Tunis (I firmly resisted using the phrase "shot in Tunisia ;-). He stood
staring at the almost life-size image on the screen for a while and then
we got an entire session of war-stories! I *loved* it!

> I will shortly be sending you my collection. I am in the process of
> adding some other pix to it, and when I am finished, it will be sent.

  Great, we'll make it available as soon as possible.

> BTW, our wizard here is in the process of writing me a tool to get
> direct access to byrd and, hopefully, I won't have to bother you
> again, about getting access.

   Have him write me directly if needed, I can give him the address for
the wizards at byrd if he needs it.

> Best of luck in those courses, and how lucky can a man get?

  Well, I'm about to marry a most amazing lady (around Christmas) and have
five cats, so I think it can't get much better :-).

> Terry
>
> Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
> P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
> fax 806-371-5370

Larry J

[email-masked]; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

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Date:    Thu, 28 Oct 1993 08:46:57 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Allied Air Campaign in Europe (fwd)

>Sorry if this is a redundant post, I'm not sure if I forwarded it before,
>but want to make sure it's been sent. Larry J
>
>> From: [email-masked] (Eugene Beatty)
>> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 93 15:46:00 -0600
>> Reply-To: [email-masked] (Eugene Beatty)
>>
>> Dear Larry,
>>
>>      This is for you and for posting on WWII-L.
>>
>>      I am trying to find the title and author of a book I read
>> several years ago that dealt with the air war in Europe during
>> World War II.
>>
>>      The book was published, I think, in the early 1980s, maybe
>> 1983 or 1984.  It was rather short.  The author had been on the
>> crew of a B-17 in Europe, and survived.
>>
>>      The thesis of the book was that the massive bombing raids over
>> Germany, which took a tremendous toll in the lives of American
>> airmen, had virtually no effect on the industrial capacity of
>> Germany; and, in fact, Germany's war production actually increased.
>>
>>      Does anyone know the title of this book or the name of the
>> author?  Thanks.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

Larry,
     This was sent out, and I thought I put an answer in another message.  I
believe the book described is THE FALL OF FORTRESSES by Elmer Bendiner.  He was
a navigator on the Schweinfurt raid and wrote what is probably the most cynical
view of precision bombing by any bomber crewman.

                                             LTC Con Crane
                                             USMA

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Date:    Thu, 28 Oct 1993 08:58:49 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WANT: 8th AF B-17 crews (43-45) for interviews

Robert,
     Mr. Johnson needs to contact the Eighth Air Force Historical Society.
There are chapters all over, and it has terrific contacts around the country.
Their director of information services is Edward Kueppers in St. Paul, MN, and
he can be reached at 800-833-1942.

                                        LTC Con Crane
                                        USMA

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Date:    Wed, 27 Oct 1993 22:09:00 LCL
From:    Jeff Olson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Nost: First WW2 book

Remember Sgt Rock of comic book fame?  Nothing so deep as the _Rise
and Fall of the Third Reich_ for me.  But as a 7 - 9 year old, it was
great summer reading while at the lake on a rainy afternoon.

Jeff
---
. 1st 1.11 #1611 . [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 28 Oct 1993 09:24:00 CDT
From:    Roger Safian <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: NOST: First WWII book

Terry,

> I was referring to the movie "12 O'clock High". And I also think that
> I recently saw an ad for the series. Combat is also out on video, and
> I would like to get that. There are some great combat scenes and fire
> fights that, to my mind, are the best that Hollywood has ever
> created, not to mention, the segment dealing with "The Hill" and the
> problems of command, that that segment dealt with. I won't forget
> that one. If you get a lead on this series, please post.

I think the movie 12 O'clock high is available from Time/Warners
viewers edge.  Not 100% positive, but I've seen it in a catalog
recently somewhere.

Combat is available at Suncoast Video.  They are might have one near
you, since they are a chain.

                                                    Roger

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Date:    Thu, 28 Oct 1993 09:35:56 -0500
From:    "Sidney W. Kitchel" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Monty's Move into Holland

Doug McCabe writes:
|->
|->                    Ohio University Electronic Communication
|->
|->
|->    Date:  27-Oct-1993 08:32pm EST
|->
|->      To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"[email-masked]
|-> " )
|->
|->    From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
|->           MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715
|->
|-> Subject:  Monty's Move into Holland
|->
|->
|->     Con,
|->
|->     Weigley's interpretation of MARKET-GARDEN as a good concept showing
|->     aggressiveness and initiative, yet suffering from poor tactical
|->     execution feels right.  This is all true, as far as it goes.  Browning
|->     and especially Thomas did lack the aggressiveness such a bold plan
|->     needed if it was to have any hope of success.

        Thanks, Doug, for some interesting thoughts.

|->
|->     If Monty had had the availability of a deep water port in operation and
|->     near by his plan might have succeeded.  Total priority of supplies
|->     coming from Normandy as he demanded, and as he complained later as
|->     being one of the reasons for the failure, would not in September 1944
|->     have provided the edge needed to win.  Remember the MARKET-GARDEN
|->     operation was conceived and planned in something like two weeks.
|->     Granted, COMET was a predecessor and similar operation, but the
|->     logistics problems were never ready for such an offensive and couldn't
|->     have been in such a short time.  Even the great white American hero and
|->     all around guy Patton could not have made a success of that operation.
|->     I think nearly all the Allied leaders knew the war would have to last
|->     past the winter but just didn't want to admit it.  Consequently, they
|->     were open to risky judgements beyond their means.  [So there! 8-}]

        It's hard to know what Patton or other allied leaders could
have done with the operation. The results may well have depended on
how well the commanders paid attention to their Dutch advisors. Ryan
makes it very clear that the thrust up a single road across multiple
bridges had been studied many times in Dutch staff training. The
conclusions of multiple table exercises was that if you tried to go
only by one road, the chances were very bad.

                                                        --Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel           [email-masked], [email-masked]
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121

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Date:    Thu, 28 Oct 1993 13:30:00 PDT
From:    O'Hara Walter <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Patton One-Upping Monty

>'Just think of what Northern France and Flanders would have been like in

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 > 1944 if all the Allied commanders in the West had been a Patton!

>Lou Coatney, WIU

In a word: Occupied.

Walt O'Hara
[email-masked]

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Date:    Thu, 28 Oct 1993 12:14:37 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: NOST: First WWII book

Roger,

Thanks a million. I will look into that series, and the only large-
chain video store here is Blockbuster Video. I am certain that they
would have that as well.

Thanks again for the lead, and I will look into it.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 28 Oct 1993 12:29:07 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WANT: 8th AF B-17 crews (43-45) for interviews

> Robert,
>      Mr. Johnson needs to contact the Eighth Air Force Historical Society.
> There are chapters all over, and it has terrific contacts around the country.
> Their director of information services is Edward Kueppers in St. Paul, MN, and
> he can be reached at 800-833-1942.

That's already been done.  Ed's a member of the CAF, too.  :-)

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
[email-masked]                                       Confederate Air Force

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Date:    Thu, 28 Oct 1993 15:12:40 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Patton One-Upping Monty

Walt,

Either that or at each other's throat.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 28 Oct 1993 17:10:02 -0500
From:    Lakeville Senior High <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: NOST: First WWII book

Well, I went back to my middle school library and 20 years later the same
books were on the shelf.  I pulled out the library card in the back and it
was they check out slip from 1974 with my name on it 17 time.  What did I
read so many times in 4th grade?  COMBAT NURSES OF WWII.  Also, I found
that I had read 30 SECONDS OF TOKYO many times also.

By the way, I've finished HITLER'S PANZERS EAST and found it thought
provoking.  I'd like to know what the author missed that everyone else
hasn't.  Or is his revisionism accurate?

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 29 Oct 1993 08:43:32 +1000
From:    Derek Monz <[email-masked]>
Subject: Crane Conrad please read

Crane, I meant to check before, but if you didn't get my home mail addres,
let me know and i'll send it again.
thanks Derek Monz

ps. sorry about using the list but I've lost your e-mail address.

EMail: [email-masked]           Derek Monz @ JCU 1993
       [email-masked]          Disclamer: - I didn't do it!
" If there is anything more important than my Ego.....
                 I want taken out and shot!"  (Zaphod Beablbrox (HHGTTG)).

                            ((-------))
                                \o/
                                 |
                               _/ \_

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Date:    Thu, 28 Oct 1993 18:59:46 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Patton One-Upping Monty

Walt,

     Did you really mean (still-)occupied  or liberated?

Lou

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End of WWII-L Digest - 27 Oct 1993 to 28 Oct 1993
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