Subject: WWII-L Digest - 21 Oct 1993 to 22 Oct 1993

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1993 00:01:37 -0400

There are 14 messages totalling 531 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Al Stewart:  Past, Present, Future
  2. Obituary - Colonel Erich Hartmann
  3. "...shortened the war by six months" ?? (2)
  4. Bataan Death March (2)
  5. WWII Kills (2)
  6. Patton one-upping Monty
  7. Chaco War, 1932-1935
  8. Al Stewart: "Past, Present, Future" album
  9. Carpetbaggers
 10. INF: The Longest Day
 11. Plane GIF's now available

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 21 Oct 1993 20:14:17 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Al Stewart:  Past, Present, Future

Con,

     Must have been those force-fed USMA fine arts (sort of like Plebe
Boxing?)

     I am personally responsible for the NO PLEBES in the Library music
listening rooms rule.  (I about wore out their best copy of Shostakovich's
5th the one semester I was there.)

     What is your direct e-mail address?

Lou Coatney  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Oct 1993 06:21:21 -0500
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Obituary - Colonel Erich Hartmann

Reposted from rec.aviation.military:
>Here is an obituary to Colonel Erich Hartmann, published yesterday
>in the Daily Telegraph.
>
>
>
> Colonel Erich Hartmann, the German fighter ace who has died near Stuttgart
>aged 71, scored the record total of 352 "victories" during the Second World
>War.
> Such a phenomenal number may seem fanciful, but it was carefully validated.
>Most of it was accumulated on the Eastern Front, where the Soviet aircraft
>were no match for his Me 109. Nor, in general, were the opposing pilots in
>"Bubi" Hartmann's league.
> His strike rate accelerated dramatically in the desperate Battle of Kursk on
>the Central Front. On July 7 1943 he destroyed seven Red Air Force aircraft
>over the battle.
> Yet he was unquestionably an "ace of aces", as he demonstrated on the rare
>occasions when he encountered American aircraft. Towards the end of the war
>his piloting skills and marksmanship were tested against American Mustangs.
>In 1945 he shot down five American Mustang fighter pilots over Romania in two
>sorties on one day, and shortly afterwards two more over Czechoslovakia.
>Hartmann ascribed his success to close combat. "My only tactics", he recalled,
>"were to wait until I had the chance to attack the enemy and then close in at
>high speed. I opened fire only when the whole windshield was black with the
>enemy. Then not a single shot went wild. I hit the enemy with all my guns and
>he went down."
> Only once was he himself shot down. On Aug 20 1943 he scrambled out of his
>crippled Me 109 unscathed and into the hands of Soviet soldiers.
> Feigning injury, he was placed on a stretcher in a truck and driven, so he was
>told, to find a doctor. On the way he sprang up, threw his guard against the
>cab and dodged shots as he scrambled through a field full of swaying sunflower
>stalks.
> Sleeping by day and walking by night, he reached the front where he was almost
>shot by a German sentry who challenged him. Shortly afterwards he rejoined his
>fighter group, JG-52.
> Erich Hartmann was born at Weissach in the former kingdom of Wurttemburg on
>April 19 1922. He spent his early boyhood in China where his father was a
>doctor. The family returned to Germany at a time when clandestine preparations
>were being made to rebuild the air force, using gliding centres. From the age
>of 14, young Erich was encouraged by his mother - herself a pilot- to learn
>to glide.
> In 1938, still only 16, he qualified as a gliding instructor. On Nov 15 1940
>he joined Luftwaffe Training Regiment 10, near Konigsberg in East Prussia.
>The next year he moved to the Air Academy School at Gatow airfield, Berlin.
>On graduating he was posted to the Russian front to join 7th Squadron of JG-52,
>which he eventually commanded.
> Fair-haired, blue-eyed and baby-faced, he was nicknamed "Bubi" and "the Blond
>Knight".
> While his score mounted, Hartmann longed to be with his sweetheart, Ursula
>"Usch" Puetsch; a bleeding heart pierced by an arrow was painted on the fuselage
>of his aircraft.
> By the time they married in 1944 he was a celebrated figure in the Third Reich.
>To his Knight's Cross was added a succession of Oak Leaves, Swords and finally
>Diamonds.
> His Aryan features became a familiar sight at Hitler's "Wolf's Lair" battle
>headquarters.
> When Hartmann was summoned to receive the Diamonds after the failed
>assassination attempt on Hitler of July 1944, he was told to disarm himself
>before entering the presence of the Fuhrer. "No pistol", Hartmann insisted,
>"no Diamonds - unless I am trusted". When his point had been accepted, he
>duly surrendered his weapon.
> On other occasions when Hitler commanded his presence, Hartmann arrived in
>such an inebriated state that the Nazi aides were hard put to stop him from
>juggling with the Fuhrer's cap.
> After flying his last operational sortie on May 8 1945 - the day the war in
>Europe ended - Hartmann landed on an airfield under Soviet fire after
>scoring his final and 352nd victory.
> He then marched his group and its camp followers towards the American lines
>at Pisek in Czechoslovakia and surrendered to the 90th US Infantry Division.
>Eight days later the Americans handed the group over to the Russians who
>separated women and girls and raped many of them in front of their menfolk.
>Most of the women were never seen again.
> Hartmann was sent to Russia and imprisoned for 10 bleak years during which he
>suffered intense hardship until Chancellor Adenauer negotiated his repatriation
>in 1956. The next year he resumed with the new German air force and learned
>to fly jets with the Ameicans at Kraut Field, Luke Air Force Base, Arizona.
>In 1959 he received command of a German fighter wing and was promoted colonel
>before his retirement.
>
>Hartmann and his wife had a daughter.

--
[email-masked]; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Oct 1993 08:11:03 EDT
From:    Charles Reace <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: "...shortened the war by six months" ??

And don't forget that on the eve of Monty's big Rhine-crossing operation,
Patton sent a couple batallions across the Rhine in his sector, just more
of their continual one-upmanship battle.  I recall reading that these
crossings by Patton were suprisingly successful, but I do not recall whether
they were ultimately well-exploited and influential on the strategic
picture.

-cwr-  B^)

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <[email-masked]>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Oct 1993 08:44:03 -0500
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Bataan Death March

In your message of 21 Oct 1993 at 2024 CDT, you write:
> >Somebody wrote yesterday about the last surviving Bataan Death March
> >survivor.  I know of at least one more here in San Antonio, Texas.
>                                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >He had been a Coastal Artillery officer on one of the islands.  I
> >have his autobiography (unpublished) in my library.  If anyone is
> >interested I will see if he will allow me to put excerpts on the list.
> >
> Bill, if he does agree, we might be interested in doing a feature
> story. We are a few hundred miles away, but as pointed out, there
> aren't many survivors of Bataan left. Could make for some good reading.
> Would you mind emailing me as situation develops?
> Much obliged...
>                                      Jim Brady
>                                  [email-masked]

Hi Jim,

I will check and see if he is amenable but who is "we"?  Are you
speaking on behalf of the list or a publication?  He will want to know
because he will not talk about his experiences with anyone.  He wrote
the autobiography for his daughter and thus far has resisted
encouragement to have it published or donated to a library or museum.
His original is photo illustrated using snapshots he took
pre-invasion and you are right, it is good reading.

Let me know what you have in mind and I will relay it to him.

Regards,  Bill Huber
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Oct 1993 09:36:13 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WWII Kills

> Repost from rec.aviaton.military:
>
> >I think we should take it as a given that ALL victory claims are inflated,
> >whatever the air force. When I compared Flying Tiger (AVG) combat reports
> >with Japanese accounts of the same combats, I concluded that the Tigers
> >shot down about 115 planes (or destroyed them on the ground) rather than
> >the roughly 300 for which they were paid combat bonuses or the 600 (or
> >1000!) attributed in popular romances. Similarly, John Lundstrom has
> >whittled away at both US Navy and JNAF fighter claims in his books, THE
> >FIRST TEAM and (due from Naval Institute Press in December) THE FIRST TEAM
> >AT GAUDALCANAL.
>
> John? Can we take it as a "given"? Proganda would seem to make it necessary
> but are the post-war totals very accurate at all?

Postwar totals _have_ to be reasonably accurate.

While, for propaganda and/or political reasons a government may not
inform their public of the true scope or even truth of a matter, they
did still keep very accurate records of what truly transpired.  (In fact,
the Germans kept such damn good records that the contents of various
filing cabinets were incredibly incriminating -- an example is a POW I
know who assisted with the cataloging of files in his camp -- The Germans
literally photographed everything and everyone and documented them on
paper.  Found were photos of camp guards and commanders, shooting
prisoners, beating them or whatever.  Those files were not considered
important enough to destroy when Patton "visited.")

While the Allied loss figures for aircraft may not support an individual
Axis pilot's claim to total number of victories, but the overall picture
can be made to show whether the accounts were or were not inflated.

After each mission, the results of the mission were documented.  Those
records also show, from the same-side point of view, how many aircraft
were lost and _how_ they were lost (not just "enemy action"), but
"fighter," "flak," etc.).

If Allied figures claim that 1,000 aircraft were lost in a particular
period of time due to enemy fighters and Axis claims for that period
of time also show claims for 1,000 aircraft, the figures are not in any
way inflated, even though one individual may lay claim to all 1,000.
(THAT would be inflated, but nothing else :-).

So postwar totals have to be reasonably accurate.  Good records were
kept and not destroyed.  Records that were maintained day by day should
be considered reasonably accurate.  It would be impossible for a high-
scoring ace to lay claim to an extraordinary number of victories and
hope to get away with it unless there was a long-term concerted effort
to fabricate his records over the course of several years.  While a 300+
victory pilot may be very popular with the people, why would each and
every flight be documented with kills over the course of many years just
to come to this one point?  The claims of these pilots may or may not be
provable to an airplane, but they were at least documented on paper "as
time went on" leading one to accept they are probably quite accurate.

Exact numbers can never be known, but you know with a small percentage
of accuracy - More than statistically significant.

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
[email-masked]                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Oct 1993 09:55:15 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <[email-masked]>
Subject: Patton one-upping Monty

And we thought MONTY could be an irritant!  Teach those Brits to come to
  our rescue(?) in the Ardennes!  "French Gratitude"?  "American Gratitude"!

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Oct 1993 09:45:27 CDT
From:    "A.J. Wright" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Chaco War, 1932-1935

This request does not pertain strictly to WWII, but may be close enough
not to offend many. One of our faculty is researching anesthesia in the
German military during the Nazi era. His research has led him to the par-
ticipation of German advisors in the Chaco War, fought in the Chaco Desert
region of Paraguay and Bolivia 1932-1935. Apparently German advisers assisted
the Bolivians and supposedly provided them with poison gas. A search of the
Library of Congress database has yielded probably 300+ citations on the
Chaco War which the doctor is currently digesting. I thought I would pose
the matter to this forum in case anyone here has special knowledge/interest
in the Chaco War. Please contact me privately as I am not currently sub-
scribed to this list. Many thanks in advance.

A.J. Wright, MLS
Department of Anesthesiology Library
School of Medicine
University of Alabama at Birmingham
619 19th Street South
Birmingham AL 35233-6810
205/934-6500 (voice)
205/975-5963 (fax)
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Oct 1993 12:00:40 EDT
From:    Charles <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Al Stewart: "Past, Present, Future" album

        Lou Coatney <[email-masked]> writes:
        Stewart must be a WWII buff.

... actually, I think he's just a history buff - his album "24
carrots" includes the song "Constantinople" about the siege and
conquest of that city in the mid-1400's.

Charles

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Oct 1993 12:01:54 -0500
From:    John Lundstrom <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WWII Kills

Larry,
        It seems that claims are always inflated, mainly because no one in
combat usually has the time to follow their opponent down to the ground to
know for certain of his destruction. The key in these early campaigns is the
lack of gun cameras. It would be interesting to see how many claims in 1943-
45 were thrown out and never recorded when the gun camera film later failed
to substantiate the claims. I think the credits based on gun camera evidence
are much more substantial than than those which are not.
        For Guadalcanal I have the luxury of seeing the Japanese squadron
records with detailed flight schedules (even the names of all the bomber
crews) for every single mission I describe. That is the only reason I would
presume to comment upon claims versus action losses. I have found virtually
no instances where claims were deliberately inflated, but only honest errors
of perception in the heat of combat.

                                John Lundstrom  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Oct 1993 15:30:45 EDT
From:    Doug McCabe <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Carpetbaggers

                   Ohio University Electronic Communication

   Date:  22-Oct-1993 03:30pm EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"[email-masked]" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject:  Re: Carpetbaggers

    Sorry to send this to the List but trying to go backchannel got me an
    error message.

    Dennis,

    I think I'm the one who was looking for more info on the Carpetbaggers.
    I might as well tell you why since it may help you with the additional
    info you have.

    Since Cornelius Ryan wrote _The Longest Day_ in the late 50's much has
    been released that was unknown or unreleased at that time.  We at the
    OU Archives would like to enhance his research materials and library
    now in our posession by creating a suppliment to the collection.  We
    are specifically interested in materials dealing with OVERLORD,
    MARKET-GARDEN, and the battle for Berlin.  Secondarily, are materials
    relating to periods before and after those operations (which, I
    suppose, would include most anything about the Western and Eastern
    Fronts).

    Since the revelation of the ULTRA secret in the mid 70's a great deal
    has come out on secret ops which have caused a great deal of
    re-thinking about how various operations developed and were resolved.
    It seems to me that the Carpetbaggers would have had numerous
    assignments before, during, and immediately after OVERLORD.  I find it
    very curious they were disbanded just a month before MARKET-GARDEN
    (September 1944) and wonder why.  If they were responsible for
    insertions in France and the low countries, wouldn't you think the high
    command would have wanted to have them available for the air drop and
    drive to Arnhem?

    Gosh, I hope the "offer you can't refuse" doesn't have anything to do
    with cement and fish!

    Doug McCabe
    [email-masked]

Received:  22-Oct-1993 03:30pm

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Oct 1993 16:18:42 EDT
From:    Doug McCabe <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: The Longest Day

                   Ohio University Electronic Communication

   Date:  22-Oct-1993 04:10pm EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"[email-masked]" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject:  INF: The Longest Day

    Simon and Schuster has just contacted us for the photographs used in
    the first edition of _The Longest Day_.  They are re-printing the book
    to be ready for the 50th anniversary of D-Day.  WWII-L gets advance
    notice.  One hopes they do *not* splash claims on the cover like the
    one on my edition of _A Bridge Too Far_: "one of the most important
    books OF ALL TIME." [my emphasis]  Geeze, that's not pushing it a
    little too far, is it?

    Y' all rush out and get a copy, ya hear.

    Doug McCabe
    Ohio University Archives
    [email-masked]

Received:  22-Oct-1993 04:18pm

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Oct 1993 14:44:34 -0500
From:    Jim Brady <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Bataan Death March

>
>In your message of 21 Oct 1993 at 2024 CDT, you write:
>> >Somebody wrote yesterday about the last surviving Bataan Death March
>> >survivor.  I know of at least one more here in San Antonio, Texas.
>>                                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> >He had been a Coastal Artillery officer on one of the islands.  I
>> >have his autobiography (unpublished) in my library.  If anyone is
>> >interested I will see if he will allow me to put excerpts on the list.
>> >
>> Bill, if he does agree, we might be interested in doing a feature
>> story. We are a few hundred miles away, but as pointed out, there
>> aren't many survivors of Bataan left. Could make for some good reading.
>> Would you mind emailing me as situation develops?
>> Much obliged...
>>                                      Jim Brady
>>                                  [email-masked]
>
>Hi Jim,
>
>I will check and see if he is amenable but who is "we"?  Are you
>speaking on behalf of the list or a publication?  He will want to know
>because he will not talk about his experiences with anyone.  He wrote
>the autobiography for his daughter and thus far has resisted
>encouragement to have it published or donated to a library or museum.
>His original is photo illustrated using snapshots he took
>pre-invasion and you are right, it is good reading.
>
>Let me know what you have in mind and I will relay it to him.
>
>Regards,  Bill Huber
>[email-masked]
>

Sorry I didn't mention it: The Fort Worth Star-Telegram is the major
daily newspaper for Tarrant County and Fort Worth (Dallas' unheard-of twin
city, and home of Vought? Lockeed? General Dynamics?-- whatever it is
this month.) ;-)

As it turns out, I just got word that a convention of Bataan DM
survivors is meeting this very weekend in Arlington, right here in our
front yard. So let me change my request: If I sent you a copy of our
story, perhaps you wouldn't mind slipping it out onto the WWII
discussion list? (Our Newsgroup mailing routine is not dependable,
otherwise I would do it myself.)

Let me know. And thanks for writing back.
                                               Yours,
                                             Jim Brady

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Oct 1993 16:42:25 -0500
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Plane GIF's now available

Reposted from rec.aviation.military:
>       Something like a year ago, (maybe 9 months,) a contact sheet of
>       various WWII plane gifs was posted with the notice that they
>       all had been submitted to wuarchive.wustl.edu. Well they finally
>       made it to the outside world.
>
>       They are not in the general archive catalog, but are in the
>       latest unsorted/uncataloged directory. (Two of the files seem
>       to be missing.) The list is (all have GIF extensions)
>
>       B17             B24             B25             B26             BF109
>       F4U             HE111           KATE1           LANCAST         MEPIT
>       P38             P40             P47             P51             PBY
>       TDB1
>
>       KATE1, LANCAST, AND TDB1 are only line drawings, but the rest are
>       full color photos of the real things.
>
>Frank R. Borger - Physicist     ___      It's 9:00 am. Do you know where your
>Michael Reese - U of Chicago   |___      children are? Well, it depends on
>Center for Radiation Therapy   | |_) _   whether or not the Judge opened
>net: [email-masked]    | \|_)  the schools today.
>ph: 312-791-8075 fa: 791-2517       |_)

--
[email-masked]; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Oct 1993 19:27:21 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: "...shortened the war by six months" ??

Charles,

The Patton crossing of the Rhine at Ludwigshafen, farther South from
Montgomery's crossing of the Rhine at Wesel,  was very successful. It
allowed him to advance into Czechoslovakia very rapidly. This tends
to get lost in the shuffle at the time, because it didn't have
anything to do with the thrust toward Berlin which everyone was
watching at the time.

As far as being of any strategic value, it tied down more German
troops that could have been used against the Russians and in the
Berlin area.

Hope this helps.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 21 Oct 1993 to 22 Oct 1993
*************************************************