Subject: WWII-L Digest - 12 Oct 1993 to 13 Oct 1993

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1993 00:00:38 -0400

There are 37 messages totalling 1115 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Aircraft carriers (4)
  2. Gen: White Rose (2)
  3. your mail (2)
  4. USAAF 13 OCT 43 (2)
  5. Howdy! (3)
  6. Q: German medal, 1939 (5)
  7. Division of Japanese forces at Leyte worked
  8. SdKfz. 234 Puma (2)
  9. the sound (3)
 10. re : Doolittle
 11. The "Philadelphia Experiment" (5)
 12. Doolittle Raid (2)
 13. A minor correction re: F4Fs at Coral Sea/Midway (3)
 14. WEAP: SdKfz. 234 Puma
 15. subscription

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 09:51:34 +0200
From:    Chris Scogings <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Aircraft carriers

>The CVF is a mistake. I am certain it was typographical. It should
>have been CVA (Carrier, Fixed-wing, Attack)

Does the A stand for Attack?  Ok, what does the V stand for?  It can't mean
fixed-wing, because in WWII there was no alternative?

Chris
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Scogings                      Voice: (27) 331 955645
Computer Science Dept                 Fax: (27) 331 955599
University of Natal
Pietermaritzburg                   E-Mail:[email-masked]
----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 09:57:05 +0100
From:    Richard Cummings <[email-masked]>
Subject: Gen: White Rose

Yesterday, for what it is worth, was the 50th Anniversary of the
execution of the last member of the anti-Hitler group, "The White Rose."

Regards from Munich.  Richard.

--==oo00oo==--
[email-masked]
RFE/RL Inc
Munich,Germany

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 20:58:08 +1000
From:    Derek Monz <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: your mail

On Tue, 12 Oct 1993, CHILL wrote:

> To all who care to reply,
>
>         Greetings! I have been monitoring the discussions on this service
> for the past week or so and thought it was time to jump into the thick of
> things. I am currently collecting information for my personal files on
> technological advances in World War II (trust me there were many!) and their
> use/importance in the European theater of operations. I thought this might
> be an interesting topic for open debate. If any one has any information that
> they would like to share or discuss (possibly even point me in the
> direction of some interesting books on the subject) it would be greatly
> appreciated.

 How about discussing the airborne radar units used by 8th air force units.
 Derek Monz.

EMail: [email-masked]           Derek Monz @ JCU 1993
       [email-masked]          Disclamer: - I didn't do it!
" If there is anything more important than my Ego.....
                 I want taken out and shot!"  (Zaphod Beablbrox (HHGTTG)).

                            ((-------))
                                \o/
                                 |
                               _/ \_

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 07:17:02 -0400
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: USAAF 13 OCT 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
WEDNESDAY, 13 OCTOBER 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  F-4, Lockheed Lightning
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  Spitfire, Vickers Supermarine

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 11 P-40's unsuccessfully intercept 8
Japanese medium bombers attacking Massacre Bay and the nearby airfield on
Attu Island in the Aleutian Islands.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): Japanese fighters appear in strength over
Sumprabum, Burma to attack over-the-Hump flights. The enemy evades US
patrols and shoots down 3 transports. A fighter-bomber offensive against
airfields in Burma from which fighters might operate against Hump
transports opens with an attack by P-40's on Myitkyina.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 3 B-25's on a sea sweep off SE China hit
shipping in Amoy harbor, claiming 1 freighter sunk and another damaged.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): Italy declares war
on Germany.
  In Italy, XII Bomber Command B-25's and B-26's bomb the town of Alife, a
road junction at Sessa Aurunca, and airfield at Tirana; XII Air Support
Command, supplemented by Royal Air Force (RAF) Desert Air Force (DAF)
fighters, supports the US Fifth Army, which begins an assault crossing of the
Volturno River on a 40-mile (64 km) front during the night of 12/13 Oct.
Fighters and fighter-bombers hit troop and tank concentrations, trains,
trucks, and communications the lines in the forward areas, especially around
Ortona, Giulianova, and Campobasso. Northwest African Tactical Bomber Force
(NATBF) light bombers join in the attacks, hitting road junctions in the
Vairano, Carinola, Dragoni, Vasto, Terracina, and Minturno areas.
  The 12th Photographic Squadron (Light), 3d Photographic Reconnaissance and
Mapping Group, transfers from Ariana to La Marsa, Tunisia with F-4's and F-5's.
  The detachment of the 27th Fighter Squadron, 1st Fighter Group, operating
from Gambut, Libya with P-38's since 5 Oct, returns to it's base at Mateur,
Tunisia.
  The 92d Fighter Squadron, 81st Fighter Group, transfers from Sidi Ahmed,
Tunisia to Castelvetrano, Sicily with P-39's.
  The 307th Fighter Squadron, 31st Fighter Group, transfers from Montecorvino
to Pomigliano, Italy with Spitfires.
  The 379th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 310th Bombardment Group (Medium),
based at Menzel Temime, Tunisia with B-25's, begins operating from Oudna,
Tunisia.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, a detachment of the 17th Photographic Squadron (Light), 4th
Photographic Reconnaissance and Mapping Group, based on Guadalcanal Island
with F-5's, begins operating from Munda, New Georgia Island. The air echelons
of "C" and "D" Flights are still in the US.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): On New Britain
Island in the Bismarck Archipelago, 100+ B-24's and B-25's are sent against
Rabaul; bad weather forces the bombers to turn back, but 40+ B-24's hit
targets including Hoskins, Lindenhafen, Cape Gloucester and Gasmata Island
off the south coast of New Britain Island.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
 Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 07:44:47 EDT
From:    "William B. Thacker" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Aircraft carriers

Chris Scogings writes:

> Does the A stand for Attack?  Ok, what does the V stand for?  It can't mean
> fixed-wing, because in WWII there was no alternative?

You're on the right track, but 60 years or so too late.  "V" stands for
heavier-than-air, to distinguish airplanes from blimps.  (Durned if I can
recall the abbrev. for lighter-than-air.)  Hence, "VF" would refer to a
heavier-than-air fighter squadron; stick an "M" in there if it's Marines.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
(614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              [email-masked]
                      Humpty Dumpty was pushed!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 07:47:19 EDT
From:    "William B. Thacker" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Howdy!

Larry!

How's it going, eh?  I trust all's well with you and Kim, and that West
Lafayette is still gonna be there next June.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
(614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              [email-masked]
                      Humpty Dumpty was pushed!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 06:49:25 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Q: German medal, 1939

Dear Olaf,

That decoration sounds to me as though it could be the Knight's Cross
of the War Meritorious Service Cross with Swords, in which case it
would have great resale value. Of course, not being able to see it,
it may be some other decoration, but that is what it sounds like to
me.

Such a decoration was awarded to highly placed officials in either
the military or civilian sectors and was awarded for outstanding
contributions to the war effort.

Hope this helps.

Terry Moore

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 07:00:46 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Division of Japanese forces at Leyte worked

Lou,

That is absolutely correct. Midway, as complicated a plan as the
Japanese had devised for its prosecution, wasn't nearly as convoluted
as the Leyte operation. Also the number of men involved at Leyte,
sailors alone, amounted to more than were listed in the entire Marine
Corps of 1937. The number of sailors involved amounted to very nearly
144,000.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 07:04:49 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Gen: White Rose

Richard,

Thanks for the update. I wasn't aware that yesterday was the
anniversary of the demise of the White Rose Society.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 07:05:54 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: your mail

That is a very interesting topic. What about jet and rocket
propulsion development? This is only a suggestion.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 07:08:59 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Aircraft carriers

Bill,

I wasn't aware that a change had been made in that designation. Do
you know approximately when this happened? V has always meant to me
"fixed-wing".  I would be interested in knowing what the designation
for dirigible was. I will do some checking myself.

Thanks.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 07:13:35 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: SdKfz. 234 Puma

Irek,

Sd Kfz 232 or 234, I have seen reference to both, but somehow, I
think there might be mistake here, refers to Sonderkraftfahrzeug or
"Special purpose vehicle". This type of vehicle was armed with a 75mm
cannon (L/48 75mm) and was used in reconnaissance mainly. Its great
advantage was silence and speed as opposed to that of a tank. Its
disadvantage was its vulnerability in cross-country operations. It
had a crew of 4.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 07:15:22 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Howdy!

>
> Larry!
>
> How's it going, eh?  I trust all's well with you and Kim, and that West
> Lafayette is still gonna be there next June.

  I'm slowly surfacing. Anyone who hasn't got their flu shots yet are urged
to do so!

  My mailbox imploded while I was Tango Uniform, so if I owe anyone a reply
send me a note.

> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
> (614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              [email-masked]
>                       Humpty Dumpty was pushed!
                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                   Oh great, another conspiracy theory!
Larry J

[email-masked]; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 14:43:00 CET
From:    Peter de Lange <[email-masked]>
Subject: the sound

The sound.
On Saturday 15.45 I heard the sound. Fantastic!
I looked out of the window and saw a B-25 Mitchell flying,
coming from the West and with a big turn going to the South.
Peter de Lange
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 14:44:00 CET
From:    Peter de Lange <[email-masked]>
Subject: re : Doolittle

Doolittle.
In my neighbourhood (Holland) only a few people knew Doolittle,
but that few knew a lot about him.
Between the wars Doolittle visited Fokker and the Fokker Company.
In "Vliegwereld" (an aircraft magazin) dd 1-may-1942 ( in an
occupied country) I found the following:
-Air raid on Tokio-
-American bombers bombed Tokio and a few other Japanese towns.
 -A Tokio daily newspaper wrote that a lot of bombers with
 -American stars bombed Tokio.Under the bombers were aircraft of
 -the type "Ma-50". There was air alarm for about 7 hours and the next
 -day again there was a few times air alarm.
 -On the second day all the fires were under control.
 -The Empire and his family were save.
-The article of Vliegwereld goes on with the remarks, it is pity
-that the Japanes did not count the engines, if that were 4, than
-it must be an plane started from the land, but only the B-19 was
-able to fly such a big distance, but as far as known was the B-19
-not in production.
-Option 2, if it were 2 engined planes, than they could start from
-a carrier, but then there was the problem of landing, returning
-to the carriers seems impossible, than there were 2 options to
-fly on, 1e Wladiwostok, not so far but political very difficult
-because the USSR and USA were Allies against Germany, but the USSR
-and Japon were friends, 2e to China, a bigger distance.
-The first goal of the flight could be war supply to China, the way
-through India and Birma was blocked, so the US had to transport
- with carriers over the Pacific and fly the last end. If they passed
-Japon on delivery flight they could drop a few bombs.
-The comment on the type "Ma-50" maybe a  mixed up with Na-50.
After all a very close article.
Peter de Lange
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 09:45:12 EDT
From:    Michael Cotter <[email-masked]>
Subject: The "Philadelphia Experiment"

Can any WWII-L readers help me with a question about U.S. Navy exper-
iments with radar or other electronic technology?  In 1943, the Navy
supposedly conducted a experiment with a ship (and its crew) in which the
ship disappeared, then was brought back.  The crew members who moved around
during this test period were affected somehow, but those who remained
stationary were all right.  The Navy base where the research and/or tests
occurred was in New Jersey; since the 1980s, it has been a state park, although
much of it remains the same as it was during the Navy period.

The person who is asking about this says that her mother heard someone on
the radio in Pittsburgh talk about it.  She didn't get his name, of course.

We've checked some sources in the library, but haven't found any information.
I'd appreciate any leads on this.  Thanks.

Michael Cotter
Documents Librarian
Joyner Library
East Carolina University
Greenville NC 27858
919/757-6533

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 09:44:55 EDT
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Q: German medal, 1939

Reply to Larry and/or Olaf:

The medal you describe is the War Merit Cross 2nd Class (Kriegsverdienstkreuz,
2. klasse).  It was awarded for meritorious service (not bravery) by the
Wehrmacht.  It is somewhat akin to the Army Commendation Medal awarded
by the U.S. Army.

Hope this helps.

Barry

>Reposted from soc.history, please reply to address at end of file:
>(Or tell us and I'll forward.)
>
>>One of my students has come into the possession of a German
>>military decoration. He would like more information about it.
>>He would also like to know whether it has any sale value. I would
>>be grateful if anyone out there with some knowledge about medals
>>and military decorations can be of assistance.
>>
>>The medal is of brass; it is in the form of a Maltese cross,
>>around 2" in height. A pair of swords (hilts at the 5 o'clock and
>>7 o'clock positions) intersect the cross. At the centre is a
>>wreath; on one side of the medal at the centre of the wreath
>>there is a swastika, while on the other side the year "1939"
>>appears in the centre. A brass ring passes through an eyelet at
>>the top of the medal; the number "100" is stamped in almost
>>microscopic numerals on this ring. The ribbon accompanying the
>>medal no longer is attached. The ribbon is black with red edging;
>>a thin white edge separate red and black.
>>
>>Thanks in advance for any information.
>>
>>Olaf Janzen                      Tel: (709) 637-6282
>>Department of History            FAX: (709) 639-8125
>>Sir Wilfred Grenfell College     e-mail: [email-masked]
>>Corner Brook, Newfoundland
>>Canada
>>A2H 6P9
>
>
>--
>[email-masked]; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
>"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
>unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
>Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41
>

Barrett F. Lowe                    RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, US Military Academy, West Point, NY 10996

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 09:56:37 EDT
From:    Michael Cotter <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: The "Philadelphia Experiment"

P. S., I forgot to mention that the movie "The Philadelphia Experiment"
is based loosely on this experiment.

Michael Cotter
Documents Librarian
Joyner Library
East Carolina University
Greenville NC 27858
919/757-6533

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 09:42:44 -0400
From:    "M. Joseph Barone" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: USAAF 13 OCT 43

> MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS Italy declares war on Germany.

        I should note that Italy was divided into two political units
at this time: The southern portion under Allied control headed by
Marshal Badoglio and the Italian National Republic in the north
nominally under Mussolini.  Needless to say, the north continued
to fight alongside the Axis while a state of war had already existed
between the southern government and the Axis.
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
Look, we're not worried about the German Army, we've got enough troubles
of our own.  To the right, General Patton; to the left, the British Army;
to the rear, our own goddamn artillery; and besides all that, it's raining!
And the only good thing to say about the weather, it keeps our Air Corp
from blowing us all to hell because it's too lousy to fly!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 09:55:23 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: the sound

Peter and to all others,

It may be of interest to note that for the next 2 days, an
operationally ready B-17 and B-24 (the only one of its kind in this
condition) are here in Amarillo on display.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 10:52:52 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Doolittle Raid

>LTC Crane writes:
>
>> Bill Thacker writes of the Doolittle Raid:
>> >That's the up side.  I also feel people have been ignoring a major facet of
>> >the down side.  I've read estimates in the hundreds of thousands for the
>> >number of Chinese civilians killed by the Japanese in reprisal for the
>> >raid.  That weighs heavily against any moral gains of the raid.
>>
>>Bill, I don't understand your logic.  Perhaps if we had known about the
>>retalia tions that the raid would bring, that might lessen the moral
>>impact, but we cann ot be held responsible for unexpected enemy excesses in
>>response to military ac tions.
>
>That's a problem when quoting me out of the context of the discussion.
>
>The point that was being argued was whether or not the Doolittle Raid was a
>good call.  There are two approaches one may take when arguing about the
>correctness of an historical decision:
>
> 1) Was the decision was the correct one given the information
>        available to the decision-maker? (Was it a good bet?)
>
> 2) Was the decision correct in hindsight? (Did it pay off?)
>
>The discussions taking place were clearly of the second type; "We would
>have been better off with two more carriers at Coral Sea" is an argument
>based in hindsight, as is "The raid removed any resistance by the Japanese
>staff to the Midway Operation."  Neither of these results was foreseeable
>to Roosevelt at the time the raid was ordered.
>
>If we're doing a hindsight analysis, we're basically asking, "If we could
>go back, knowing what we know now, would we do it again?"  All I'm saying
>is that if we're playing that game, we *must* consider the Chinese
>civilians the Japanese killed, because we, unlike Roosevelt, are not
>ignorant of that outcome.
>
>Does that clear it up?
>
>
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
>(614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              [email-masked]
>                      Humpty Dumpty was pushed!

Bill,
     I understand your position, but I am still uneasy with attempts to judge
"moral gains" in hindsight.
                                             Con

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 10:07:20 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: the sound

> The sound.
> On Saturday 15.45 I heard the sound. Fantastic!
> I looked out of the window and saw a B-25 Mitchell flying,
> coming from the West and with a big turn going to the South.

Ain't that sound wonderful?  :-)

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
[email-masked]                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 11:25:56 EDT
From:    Charles Reace <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: The "Philadelphia Experiment"

I thought there was a book out by the same title as the movie.  I've never
read it, so I don't know how serious a study it was, or if it was just
sensationalism.  I would assume from your job title you've already looked
this up, so perhaps it's out of print?

I realize this probably isn't much help, so good luck anyway!

-cwr-  B^)

Charles Reace <[email-masked]>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 13:19:34 EDT
From:    Peter Smith <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: The "Philadelphia Experiment"

This is generally accepted as being a hoax.  The story was originated
by one Carlos Allende (aka Carlos Allen) and publicised by Morris Jessup,
a writer/publisher of some fairly lurid UFO stories in the 1950's.

Allende/Allen made use of the secret work going on at the Philadelphia
Naval Shipyard as fertile ground for his story.  During the period in
question, a research laboratory was set up there for the Manhattan
Project.  Famous physicists from Princeton and Penn were seen coming
and going and there were many rumors at the time of secret weapons
being developed.  That much was true, but Allende's stories of the
teleportation of the USS Eldridge (DDE-173) appear groundless.

Charles Berlitz, who has made a good living writing about the Bermuda
Triangle, etc., wrote a a book entitled _The Philadelphia Experiment_
that describes the tale pretty much as you heard it.

If you want more info, try posting to sci.skeptic or alt.folklore.urban.
This comes up there about once a semester.
---
Peter Smith -- Data General Corp., Westboro, MA
[email-masked] or [email-masked]
#include <std_disclaimer.h>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 19:11:10 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: A minor correction re: F4Fs at Coral Sea/Midway

> stowed on a carrier.  It's replacement, the SB2C Helldiver, was
> never as well liked by the pilots familiar with the SBD's handling.

The SB2C wasn't liked by anybody. British test pilot Eric Brown commented
that no such aircraft would ever be allowed near a British carrier deck.

Emmanuel.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 14:18:28 EDT
From:    "William B. Thacker" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: SdKfz. 234 Puma

Terry Moore wrote:

> Sd Kfz 232 or 234, I have seen reference to both, but somehow, I
> think there might be mistake here, refers to Sonderkraftfahrzeug or
> "Special purpose vehicle". This type of vehicle was armed with a 75mm
> cannon (L/48 75mm) and was used in reconnaissance mainly. Its great
> advantage was silence and speed as opposed to that of a tank. Its
> disadvantage was its vulnerability in cross-country operations. It
> had a crew of 4.

I never saw the original posting on this, so forgive me if I'm taking a
wrong tangent.

The SdKfz 234 was an 8-wheeled armored car developed ca. 1942 as a
replacement for the earlier SdKfz 231/232/233 8-wheelers.  Among its more
interesting features was that it was powered by a Tatra Diesel engine.  I'm
pretty sure it was the only German production AFV that was Diesel- powered.
Using a Diesel increased the vehicle's range; other modifications were made
in light of experience in the desert (and southern Russia).

(BTW, I've always understood SdKfz to be Sonderkraftfahrzeug, as Terry
says.  I've never seen "Sonderdienst...")

The SdKfz 234 was produced in four variants:

SdKfz 234/1 : Armed with a 2cm and coax MG in turret (ten-sided, open-
        topped with wire mesh hatches; identical to the SdKfz 222)
        About 200 built
SdKfz 234/2 : the Puma, carried a 5cm L/60 in a larger turret.  100 built
SdKfz 234/3 : Fitted with 7.5cm L/24 in a superstructure mount with
        limited traverse and open top. 89 built.
SdKfz 234/4 : Similar to 234/3, but with 7.5cm PAK 40 (L/48), complete
        with field carriage less wheels.  89 built.

It's tricky to distinguish the 234 series from the 231/232/233.  Key
points:  The 231/232/233 have separate fenders for each pair of wheels,
front and back, whereas the 234's have a continuous fender over all 4
wheels.  The 231 was often fitted with a spaced armor kit, which projected
forward several feet from the front "bumper".  The 232 has a massive frame
radio aerial running over the entire vehicle.  The 231 also has a
closed-top turret.  The 233 mounts a short 7.5cm L/24 cannon in an open-top
fighting compartment (and has split fenders).

The 234's entered service from mid-'44, so if you see any 8-wheeler filmed
in the desert it's a 231/232/233.  If you see one painted solid gray, it's
probably a 231/232/233.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
(614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              [email-masked]
                      Humpty Dumpty was pushed!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 15:50:26 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: The "Philadelphia Experiment"

Dear Michael,

I remember hearing something about this on a tv program that dealt
with wierd experiements that were conducted during the war, but it
has been some time, since I have seen that. Oh, I think I remember
something about that now.

There was a segment on this episode in a movie that dealt with
strange events or experiments in conjunction with unexplainable
"facts" dealing with among other things the "Bermuda Triangle". I
don't remember the name of the "documentary" movie, but I distinctly
remember this being discussed and, using trick photography,
simulating the disappearance and reappearance of the ship. If I
remember correctly, even the sailors on board the ship experienced
and continued to experience this phenomenon even after being released
from the ship after  the experiment. This all sounds very strange,
indeed, but, to the best of my memory, this is that part of the movie
that I remember which dealt with this experiment.

I have never seen anything in print to substantiate this experiment.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 16:13:56 -0500
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Q: German medal, 1939

In Barry's message of 13 Oct 1993 at 0859 CDT, he writes:
> Reply to Larry and/or Olaf:
>
> The medal you describe is the War Merit Cross 2nd Class (Kriegsverdienstkreuz,
> 2. klasse).  It was awarded for meritorious service (not bravery) by the
> Wehrmacht.  It is somewhat akin to the Army Commendation Medal awarded
> by the U.S. Army.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Barry
>
>
> >>One of my students has come into the possession of a German
> >>military decoration. He would like more information about it.
> >>He would also like to know whether it has any sale value. I would
> >>be grateful if anyone out there with some knowledge about medals
> >>and military decorations can be of assistance.

Barry's right.  Its a KVK 2nd Class and its worth between $15 and
$30 US dollars.  This one sounds rather nice being hallmarked on the
ring.  The 100 is the manufacturers code.

Were it the Knights Cross version multiply the price times 100
but they are made of 950 silver and are so marked.  The suspension
loop is also different being an oval loop allowing the ribbon to pass
through left to right rather than front to back and was worn around
the neck.  The eyelet for the loop on the Knights cross is reinforced
by two stanchions attaching a circle through which the bottom of the
ribbon loop passes.  The ribbon of the medal is about two inches wide
and 6 to 8 inches long.  The ribbon for the Knights Cross is three
inches wide and 18-24 inches long and finished with tie strings in the
back.

The medal described should be bronze rather than brass.  Some late
war versions were make of Kriegsmetall (a pot metal based zink alloy)
and was plated bronze.

> >>The medal is of brass; it is in the form of a Maltese cross,
> >>around 2" in height. A pair of swords (hilts at the 5 o'clock and
> >>7 o'clock positions) intersect the cross. At the centre is a
> >>wreath; on one side of the medal at the centre of the wreath
> >>there is a swastika, while on the other side the year "1939"
> >>appears in the centre. A brass ring passes through an eyelet at
> >>the top of the medal; the number "100" is stamped in almost
> >>microscopic numerals on this ring. The ribbon accompanying the
> >>medal no longer is attached. The ribbon is black with red edging;
> >>a thin white edge separate red and black.

Its not a rare medal but they are being faked so its worth keeping.
This one sounds like a good one.  They normally don't bother to
hallmark the cheaper fake medals and badges.  They certainly do on
the rarer ones!  Its almost not worth faking this medal well yet as
there are so many originals around that are inexpensive.

Regards,  Bill Huber
          [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 16:09:30 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Q: German medal, 1939

Barry,

The second book you mentioned to me, Order of Battle of the US Army,
a history and listing of regiments, etc. is also out of stock and I
can't get that one, either. If you run across a loose copy somewhere,
please let me know.

Sorry to have to tell you this.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 16:30:09 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Howdy!

Larry,

Did you get my messages dealing with the syntax to send you my
collection? I still want to do it, but I will need your help. Take
your time, as I know that you are swamped.

Also, I am still having trouble accessing Carlisle to get at those
files at Army War College. Will let you know more.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 19:36:04 -0400
From:    Akira Takiguchi <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Q: German medal, 1939

Olaf,

     The medal is Kriegsverdienstkreuz 2. Klasse (war merit cross 2nd class)
mit Schwertern (with swords).

     Like the Iron Cross, war merit cross had several classes;  2nd Class,
1st Class, Knight's Cross, Golden Knight's Cross (each class with or without
swords).  Also there was Kriegsverdienstmedaille (war merit medal).
Material: Golden Knight's Cross: gold plated silver, Knight's Cross: silver,
1st Class: silver plated bronze/zink, 2nd Class: bronze/bronze on zink.
Width of the ribbon for 2nd class was 30mm;  45mm for Knight's Cross.

     2,700,000 to 6,100,000 individual were awarded with 2nd class with
swords.

     I don't know its sales value, but I presume range of $20-$60 depending
on the status of the order.  Absolutely better if accompanied by the issue
paper.

     If you need more information, books like _Auszeichnungen des Deutschen
Reiches_ (Klietmann, Motorbuch Verlag) / _Orders, Decorations, Medals and
Badges of the Third Reich_ (Littlejohn et al, James Bender Publishing) will
help.
--
      Akira Takiguchi  VP, ATSON, Inc.  (a subsidiary of the Asahi Shimbun)
             CANAL TOWER  9-3 Nihonbashi-Koamicho Chuo-ku Tokyo 103  Japan
   +81 3 3666 2881(voice) 2882(fax)  EMAIL TO <[email-masked]>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 19:36:09 -0400
From:    Akira Takiguchi <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: SdKfz. 234 Puma

     I mailed this message to Irek personally but I decided to post to
the list, because the list is capable of killing possibly lurking
mistakes.

     Sd.Kfz.(Sonderkraftfahrzeug = special purpose vehicle) 234 series
didn't go into production until mid 1943.  Two prototypes were built in
late 1941 and experiment of tropical-use engine in Lybia was planned,
the situation of war (defeat of Afrikakorps) did not allow it.  That is,
there lived no Pumas in Africa.  (Since my sources regarding Panzer-
spaehwagen are fairly old, there might be some inaccuracies in the above
statements)

     "Greif", a griffin, was a command vehicle (Sd.Kfz.250/3) of Rommel's.
There were at least two of the same type with different name painted;
"Adler" (eagle) and "Igel" (hedgehog).  Fair amount of photographs of
"Greif" are available in various books.  Interior photographs are available
in a few books about half tracks.

     Interior of Sd.Kfz.223 is a mystery to me, too.  I'd like to know
if there's a book that shows it.

References: _Gepanzerte Radfahrzeuge_, _Die Halbketten-fahrzeuge_
(Spielberger) _German Army Semi-Tracked Vehicles_ (Chamberlain/Doyle)
_Wuestenfuechse_ (Carell) _Koku-fan illustrated #66_ (Kitamura)
--
      Akira Takiguchi  VP, ATSON, Inc.  (a subsidiary of the Asahi Shimbun)
             CANAL TOWER  9-3 Nihonbashi-Koamicho Chuo-ku Tokyo 103  Japan
   +81 3 3666 2881(voice) 2882(fax)  EMAIL TO <[email-masked]>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 19:53:47 -0400
From:    Bob Smart <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: A minor correction re: F4Fs at Coral Sea/Midway

> A minor correction (from memory; you know how dangerous that is)...
>
> I believe that the F4Fs in action during the Battle of the
> Coral Sea were mostly F4F-3 variants, while a month later
> at Midway, many or all were F4F-4s.  The big differences
> between the two were the advent of folding wings on the -4,
> and the reduction in ammunition load.  By folding the wings,
> the number that could be carried by a shipboard VF rose from
> about 18 up to 27.  The penalty was a further increase in weight,
> detrimental to performance.  Either to help offset the weight
> gain, or because of reduced space available in the wing, the
> amount of ammunition carried was reduced by about five second's
> worth of firing time.

The F4F4 had 6 guns instead of 4. This was the reason for less firing time.
The -4 was also heavier, more sluggish, and had a shorter range.

An Excellent book on the Wildcat is _Wildcat_the_F4F_in WW_II_ by
Barrett Tillman, published by Naval Institute Press. I picked it up at a
book outlet I've mentioned before for I think $5.00, many good pictures,
lots of operational information, 18 pages of text, 20 pages of Appendicees.

>
> BTW, the SBD Dauntless never did receive folding wings, limiting
> its effectiveness because of the reduced number that could be
> stowed on a carrier.

Interesting Trivia Question:
What was the next Carrier Aircraft after the Dauntless to have non-folding
wings?

>                       It's replacement, the SB2C Helldiver, was
> never as well liked by the pilots familiar with the SBD's handling.

I believe range was another factor as well as a propensity of early beasts
to break just in front of the tail on hard landings.

> If I recollect correctly, Enterprise managed to hang on to its
SBDs into 1944, rather than convert to the Helldiver.

Yes The Big E launched SBDs on the infamous long flight after the Marianas
Turkey Shoot. I believe that was the SBDs swan song.

Bob Smart ([email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 15:29:06 EDT
From:    "William B. Thacker" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Doolittle Raid

I had already promised not to post any more on this, but after reading this
article I felt obliged.  I think my postings on this have been grossly
misinterpreted and I'm concerned that people must think poorly of me as a
result.  One last attempt, then, to clarify things.

LTC Crane wrote:
>      I understand your position, but I am still uneasy with attempts to judge
> "moral gains" in hindsight.

I'm not certain how to interpret this statement.

My point in this discussion has been simple, one of basic logic:  it's
fairly pointless to judge anything in hindsight, but if you must, you're
obliged to consider the *entire* picture.

If Con is saying he thinks it's impossible to correctly judge the moral
effects of the raid today, I agree.  I think I even said as much in my
original posting.

If Con is saying he feels the Doolittle raid was worth it, even considering
the Chinese civilian casualties, that's a reasonable argument.  I don't
believe I said otherwise.  To quote myself:

> >>>I also feel people have been ignoring a major facet of
> >>>the down side.  I've read estimates in the hundreds of thousands for the
> >>>number of Chinese civilians killed by the Japanese in reprisal for the
> >>>raid.  That weighs heavily against any moral gains of the raid.

Note: I didn't say "outweighs," I said "weighs heavily against."  It's a
debatable point, and I'm simply saying those deaths must be included in the
hindsight debate.

I did *not* say I thought the raid was wrong.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
(614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              [email-masked]
                      Humpty Dumpty was pushed!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 20:24:35 -0400
From:    Bob Smart <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Aircraft carriers

> Chris Scogings writes:
>
> > Does the A stand for Attack?  Ok, what does the V stand for?  It can't mean
> > fixed-wing, because in WWII there was no alternative?
>

To confuse things even more the ships that we know as CVE ( Escort Carriers)
were originally AVGs( Auxilery ship, Fixed wing, General?) and then
ACV ( Auxilery Aircraft Carrier)

> You're on the right track, but 60 years or so too late.  "V" stands for
> heavier-than-air, to distinguish airplanes from blimps.  (Durned if I can
> recall the abbrev. for lighter-than-air.)  Hence, "VF" would refer to a
> heavier-than-air fighter squadron; stick an "M" in there if it's Marines.

I think there were seperate designaters for Blimps (non-Rigid Airships) and
Dirigibles ( Rigid Airships)

I always thought it strange that the navy did not have a way to designate
seaplanes from landplanes

Bob Smart ([email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 20:33:10 -0400
From:    Bob Smart <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: A minor correction re: F4Fs at Coral Sea/Midway

> > stowed on a carrier.  It's replacement, the SB2C Helldiver, was
> > never as well liked by the pilots familiar with the SBD's handling.
>
> The SB2C wasn't liked by anybody. British test pilot Eric Brown commented
> that no such aircraft would ever be allowed near a British carrier deck.
>

No, They just had the Barracuda!  I like Capt Browns commentaries on the
various aircraft, and he does a pretty even handed job but I don't think the
British havy any room to speak ill of anyones carrier based attack aircraft.

Bob Smart ([email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 22:57:16 -0400
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: subscription

I'm new to Email.  This discussion forum looks very interesting.
Could you please send me information on how to become involved?

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 12 Oct 1993 to 13 Oct 1993
*************************************************