Subject: WWII-L Digest - 25 Oct 1993 to 26 Oct 1993

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1993 00:00:43 -0400

There are 20 messages totalling 575 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Molly
  2. Signing Off
  3. Bataan Death March (3)
  4. INF: The Longest Day
  5. More on Bataan (2)
  6. First WWII Books (3)
  7. NOST: First WWII book (3)
  8. Earliest WWII books
  9. INF: First Books on WWII (2)
 10. Patton one-upping Monty
 11. libraries in internment camps
 12. Patton One-Upping Monty

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Date:    Tue, 26 Oct 1993 06:15:47 EDT
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Molly

>Bear,
>
>Congrats and good luck with the new bear-ette!!
>
>Steve Salina
>[email-masked]
>

Steve,

Thanks for the note.  After 3 weeks, my wife and I are starting to get
a little more sleep.  I guess I had forgotten the early days as our son
just turned seven.

Bear

Barrett F. Lowe                    RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, US Military Academy, West Point, NY 10996

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 26 Oct 1993 10:46:59 U
From:    Roland Hamblin EOS <[email-masked]>
Subject: Signing Off

Hi everyone,

Just a quick note to say that I will be signing off from the lists within the
next 3 days, as I am changing jobs.

I have enjoyed my time on the lists, and much of what has been sent has been of
interest to me.

If anyone knows where I can get .gif or .jpeg images of F-4 Phantoms I would
appreciate it before Thursday.

Hopefully if my new site gets the Internet, I can re-join.

Otherwise, TTFN,

Roland
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 26 Oct 1993 08:33:00 EDT
From:    "Pete.Goldsmith" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Bataan Death March

Terry,

Thanks for the lead. My interest in civilians was sparked by my father-in-law
(now deceased) who volunteered to serve with the Army Engineers on Bataan. I
have found other references to civilians who also served. He was imprisoned in
Bilibid Prison as a military prisoner. Because he was a civilian and, at the
time, not a US citizen, obtaining information about his service has been
difficult.

Pete Goldsmith
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 26 Oct 1993 08:07:30 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: The Longest Day

On Mon, 25 Oct 1993 16:22:00 EDT Doug McCabe said:
>    I do admit, BTW, that _The Longest Day_ was one of the more important
>    books to me early in my life.  I must have been about 10 when I read it
>    and I credit it with having a great influence on my now 30+ years
>    interest in US military history. . . .
>
>    So, this brongs forth a question for the list: what was the earliest
>    book(s) you remember reading which got you interested in WWII?

Difficult--I no longer have the titles in my head.  The Dave Dawson books
mentioned a month or so ago, certainly.  But also a collection of vignettes
about the Bulge, fictional but fact-based, released originally (I think) as
=Dark December=.  And Crisp's autobiographical account of North Africa
=Brazen Chariots=.  Then there was the =Desert Fox= & =The German Generals
Talk=.  Turns out to be quite an advantage when one's father is armor branch
& one spends a chunk of one's youth at Ft. Knox (-:  And another chunk in
Munich:  there were still bombed-out ruins there in the '50s, tanks to ride,
& the odd visit to Berchtesgaden to intrigue one.

ken koester
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 26 Oct 1993 09:42:00 EST
From:    "W. C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <[email-masked]>
Subject: More on Bataan

As I recall there was a made-for-TV movie entitled WOMEN OF VALOR
which recounted the experiences of several Army Nurses who were
captured on Bataan and were part of the march.

I have no idea how much was fact and how much was the result of
dramatic license, but it was an interesting show, and addressed
a part of the event that is all too often overlooked.

Bill
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 26 Oct 1993 10:12:55 EDT
From:    Charles Reace <[email-masked]>
Subject: First WWII Books

I think the books that got me interested in WWII were a couple by Robert
White, the titles of which escape me.  You might look up this author if
you have/know any approx. 6th-18th grade readers who might be interested
in good historical fiction on the Pacific theater of WWII.

Probably my favorite early non-fiction WWII book was _The_Damned_Engineers_,
a first-hand account of a US engineer company (batallion?) at the
Battle of the Bulge.

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <[email-masked]>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 26 Oct 1993 09:39:59 -0400
From:    "M. Joseph Barone" <[email-masked]>
Subject: NOST: First WWII book

>From Doug McCabe:
> So, this brongs forth a question for the list: what was the earliest
> book(s) you remember reading which got you interested in WWII?

        Actually, the TV show, "Combat!" is what got me interested in
studying WWII further.  I was five and my brother was nine when the
show first aired.  On the weekends, we and our friends would dress up
in our "Monkey Division" outfits and go "on patrol" in the nearby park.
For some unfathomable reason, my brother always got to be "Sarge"!

        When I was in fifth grade, I bought my first WWII paperback.  The
title: The Longest Day.  I still have it.  Its cover price is 75 cents!
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
    Kelly: OK. Odd Ball, can you make it to this crossroads by 2100 tonight?
 Odd Ball: Sorry, man.  The boys have something special planned.
Crap Game: Are you nuts?  What's more important than 16 million dollars?
 Odd Ball: Come over tonight and find out...

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 26 Oct 1993 09:19:41 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <[email-masked]>
Subject: Earliest WWII books

Doug,

     "When I was sick and lay abed ... "  (Robert Louis Stevenson, "Land of
Counterpane")  Mom would bring me home WWII books from the Public Library,
principally children's novels about WWII.  (I remember a submarine mission
where some crew landed on a Japanese-held island.)

     My bronchitis/pneumonia? was so precarious that the nice-old-lady
Rock Island (IL) public librarians actually let Mom check out the WWII
JANE'S FIGHTING SHIPS for me.  They were well used.

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 26 Oct 1993 09:43:58 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: First WWII Books

Charles,

     I'll bet you and I teethed on the same (Robert White?) books!

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 26 Oct 1993 13:14:13 -0500
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: NOST: First WWII book

In Joe's message of 26 Oct 1993 at 1039 CDT, he sez:

> >From Doug McCabe:
> > So, this brongs forth a question for the list: what was the earliest
> > book(s) you remember reading which got you interested in WWII?
>
>         Actually, the TV show, "Combat!" is what got me interested in
> studying WWII further....

I was five when Combat! went off the air - at least that was the
last time I remember seeing it.  We played army all the time too.  I
used to hate those clunky helmets cuz they always fell off.  Hard to
find one that fits a five year old right.

Everybody wanted to be the Germans cuz they had the neat helmets as I
recall.  "Rat Patrol" was the one I remember most.  My mom used to
like to watch "12 O'Clock High".

Does anybody know whether any of these series are available on VHS
these days?  I'd love to get them.

My first books that got me into Military History had to have been Guy
Sajer's _The Forgotten Soldier_, Desmond Young's _With Rommel in the
Desert_, Ryan's _The Longest Day_, _Stuka Pilot_, _Iron Coffins_,
Rommel's _Infantry Attacks_.

Before all those were war comics though.  I was an avid reader of GI
Combat(Haunted Tank), Our Army At War (Sgt Rock), Our Fighting Forces
(The Losers), Star Spangled War Stories (The Unknown Soldier) and the
Dell editions of famous battles.

Thanks for the trip down memory lane :^)

Bill Huber
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 26 Oct 1993 14:03:47 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: First WWII Books

Lou and others,

The Dave Dawson series was for me the start, as I was about 10 years
old. These were borrowed from the local library at the time.

The first book I bought which dealt with WWII was a book called
"Skip Bomber" by ? (the names escapes me). It was a novel. The first
book I ever bought that was non-fiction was an anthology of WWII
personalities and the feats they accomplished which made their
reputations. I was 12 years old at the time. I still have this
anthology mentioned above.

Interesting question.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 26 Oct 1993 14:08:17 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Bataan Death March

Pete,

Thank you for the response. Your comment also makes me wonder about
the fate and whereabouts of the Army nurses that were stationed on
Corregidor. Granted, these were US Army personnel, but I wonder how
many are alive and willing to talk about this episode in their life?

Your question also makes me wonder how many American civilians were
interned by the Japanese at that time. As you know, one only hears
about the military, and it is easy to overlook the civilians that
suffered as well.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 26 Oct 1993 14:42:55 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: First Books on WWII

In reply to the mail from <[email-masked]>...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>    So, this brongs forth a question for the list: what was the earliest
>    book(s) you remember reading which got you interested in WWII?
>
>    Doug McCabe
>    [email-masked]
>
>
>
>Received:  25-Oct-1993 04:21pm
>

Doug,

The earliest book I remember was "Blood, Sweat, and Tears" by
Churchill.  Then I stumbled across the Ballantine books about
World WarII.  Someone mentioned "Brazen Chariots," but there was
Caidin's "Black Thursday," "Flying Forts," Johnny Johnson's book
about the RAF and the Battle of Britain, Tregaskis' "Guadalcanal
Diary," and many others.  As someone else mentioned, most of
these paperbacks were $0.75!!!  What a bargain!

Jim Irwin

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-8760
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-8760

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 26 Oct 1993 14:24:58 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: More on Bataan

Rusty,

You can bet that if Hollywood produced it, there was a lot of juggling
of the facts. I have yet to ever see the truth portrayed accurately
in one of those docu-dramas. You know it as well as anyone.

NBC made a documentary film of the BDM in which several survivors
were interviewed, and, frankly, it was one of the few things NBC did
that showed they had a grasp of the situation. This was done, I think,
about 6 years ago, and the name of it escapes me.

If I run across this in the future, I will let you know.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 26 Oct 1993 15:51:08 EDT
From:    "William B. Thacker" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Patton one-upping Monty

Lou Coatney wrote:

> And we thought MONTY could be an irritant!  Teach those Brits to come to
>   our rescue(?) in the Ardennes!  "French Gratitude"?  "American Gratitude"!

While I can't quite decipher Lou's meaning here, I'd offer that Patton was
not as irritating as Monty because Ike wouldn't let Patton get away with
it.

As for the Brits coming to our rescue in the Ardennes... it's my
understanding that the forces that Monty sent to "rescue" us were almost
entire American, anyway.  Monty's major contribution seems to have been to
confuse the chain of command and slow down the response.

If Lou's seriously suggesting that America could be considered "ungrateful"
because of Patton's efforts to upstage Monty, I would argue that Bradley
and Eisenhower routinely held Patton back, which shows quite the opposite.
If anything, we slowed the war down so Monty could keep up.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
(614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              [email-masked]
                      Humpty Dumpty was pushed!

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 26 Oct 1993 15:23:53 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Bataan Death March

>Thank you for the response. Your comment also makes me wonder about
>the fate and whereabouts of the Army nurses that were stationed on
>Corregidor. Granted, these were US Army personnel, but I wonder how
>many are alive and willing to talk about this episode in their life?
>

I just finshed reading "They Were Expendable".  One of the narrators, a
fellow by the name of Kelly, talks about his girlfriend, an army nurse by
the name of Peggy.  At the very end he says that she was in one of the last
planes that tried to fly out, but the plane crashed.  He didn't know what
had become of her.  Anybody ever hear about her fate?

>Terry
>
>Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
>P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
>fax 806-371-5370

John Riegsecker                                 (206) 756-3566
Dept of Math and Computer Science               [email-masked]
University of Puget Sound

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 26 Oct 1993 18:41:50 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: NOST: First WWII book

Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, when I was 12. (And yes, it was rugged
going :-).

Larry J

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 26 Oct 1993 21:00:21 EDT
From:    Sharon H Domier <[email-masked]>
Subject: libraries in internment camps

I spent the summer reading women's diaries about their
internment at the Santo Tomas Internment Camp in the
Philippines during WWII. I am a librarian and have
always believed that books provide a wonderful escape
from the horrors of reality. I found a lot of
references to books and libraries in these diaries.

My reading indicates that the civilian camp
commanders were very lax about enforcing the
censorship regulations, so the inmates had a wide
variety of reading material. Things tightened
up during the latter part of the war when the
military took over.

I have also come across a master's dissertation about
libraries in internment and concentration camps in
the Philippines, written by a young man who had been
in one of the camps.

I know that Sanot Tomas had an undercover official
camp historian and that he was able to leave with
all his documents when the camp was liberated. These
documents were surrendered to help with the war
crime trial preparation. Has anyone on this list
gone through these documents? If so, do you recall
seeing anything related to books/libraries?

Any related comments would be gratefully appreciated.

Sharon Domier
Japanese Materials Cataloger
Ohio State University Libraries

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Oct 1993 08:08:23 +0700
From:    "Peter E. Beal" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: First Books on WWII

Volume VI (the only one the local library had) of Samuel Elliot
Morrison's "History of U.S. Naval Operations in World War II"   I
eventually read most of the volumes (as I came across them in various
libraries).

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 26 Oct 1993 22:39:23 EDT
From:    Doug McCabe <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Patton One-Upping Monty

                   Ohio University Electronic Communication

   Date:  26-Oct-1993 10:39pm EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"[email-masked]" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject:  Re: Patton One-Upping Monty

    Monty in all his humbleness (8-|>) notes in his _Memoirs_ (pp. 296-298
    in the 1958 London: Collins edition) there were four mistakes made in
    MARKET-GARDEN - only one being his.

    The first was that while Eisenhower supposedly gave "priority to the
    northern thrust" and promised "to scale down the southern one" and he
    was hoodwinked.  Monty quotes Bradley that actually both army groups
    were operating with equal supplies.  The Field Marshal continues to use
    other authors to support his contention by quoting Chester Wilmot in
    _The Struggle For Europe_ who says the failure of halting Patton took
    away the chance for attacks by Hodges and Dempsey after the fall of
    Brussels using the First Army to make a diversion at Aachen and the
    Second British Army hitting Holland on a wider front.  [Excuse me, but
    has anyone ever heard of Monty suggesting such an operation?  I
    haven't.  I have only heard of MARKET's airborne drops to secure
    bridges for GARDEN's armored thrust up a single highway.  Aside from
    the 82nd and 101st it was a total British operation, never intending to
    use the first Army.  Furthermore, the records show that Eisenhower
    never promised Monty absolute priority in supplies although Monty
    demanded such.  And, Ike never said he would stop Patton on the Meuse
    which would have been contrary to his broad-front strategy, which he
    bent but did not repudiate for Monty's benefit.]

    The second was that the British 1st Airborne drop at Arnhem was too far
    away from the bridge [up to eight miles!] for which Monty takes the
    blame.  [As well he should since he had several officers explain that
    the drop zones were too far away.]

    The third was the weather which delayed additional buildups in the
    airdrop areas.  Of course, Monty feels this could have been overcome by
    "allotting additional resources to the project, so that it became an
    Allied and not merely a British project."  [I fail to see how more
    material and troops would have overcome the bad luck of the weather.
    How can one stuff more into an operation which could not even land, on
    time, the *planned* material and troops?  If Monty is talking more
    about the ground attack, he's still full of bull.  More tanks and such
    on one highway could never go any faster than what was actually
    accomplished.  Attacking on a wider front would have had to been done
    without airborne in front taking bridges so the Germans could have
    stopped such a move just by blowing bridges.]

    The fourth was the miscalculation about the Panzer divisions refitting
    in the Arnhem area.  Monty assumed they had been too mauled and could
    not put up much of a fight.  [Here too, he had been warned by his own
    intelligence people and the Dutch underground - albeit two
    organizations he never put much trust into.  Furthermore, Monty
    conveniently leaves out the fact that a great deal of the German
    Fifteenth Army had escaped and entered the Arnhem area precisely
    because he did not consolidate the taking of Antwerp and environs to
    both seal off that Army and open the Schelde Estuary so that the
    Allies' first, and desperately needed port would be available.]

    In reference to my last statement, Monty does "admit a bad mistake on
    my part - I underestimated the difficulties of opening up the
    approaches to Antwerp so that we could get the free use of the post.  I
    reckoned that the Canadian Army could do it *while* we were going for
    the Ruhr.  I was wrong." (emphasis in original)  [Actually it was the
    British 11th Armoured Division and the Guards Armoured Division which
    were at Antwerp and told to stop before moving through the city and
    moving north into blocking positions to contain the Fifteenth Army.
    These British units were at the end of the line in supplies and
    endurance and Monty did need time and supplies to build up for
    MARKET-GARDEN.  The problem was that he was in such an uncharacteristic
    hurry he quit one operation to start another.  Yes, it was a bad
    mistake.  Actually THE fundamental mistake.]

    Finally, here's monty's conclusion to the whole affair:  "In my -
    prejudiced - view, if the operation had been properly backed from its
    inception, and given the aircraft, ground forces, and administrative
    resources necessary for the job - it would have succeeded *in spite* of
    my mistakes, or the adverse weather, or the presence of the 2nd S.S.
    Panzer Corps in the Arnhem area.  I remain MARKET-GARDEN's unrepentant
    advocate." (emphasis in the original)

    [This American says balderdash and poppycock but, I'll leave the last
    word to someone who had to live with Monty's unrepentance.]

    "My country can never again afford the luxury of another Montgomery
    success." - Prince Bernhard of the Netherlands to Cornelius Ryan.

Received:  26-Oct-1993 10:39pm

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End of WWII-L Digest - 25 Oct 1993 to 26 Oct 1993
*************************************************