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There are 6 messages totalling 141 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. REF: Volume 14 of the series _Militaerfahrzeuge_
  2. GEN: CIA Documents Released
  3. Research Help -WWII- 969th Field Artillery
  4. WW2 Urban Legends/Folklore
  5. <No subject given>
  6. WWII Memorabilia

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 2 Oct 1993 09:25:31 -0400
From:    Akira Takiguchi <akira@ATSON.ASAHI-NP.CO.JP>
Subject: Re: REF: Volume 14 of the series _Militaerfahrzeuge_

Schiffer Publishing Ltd.  77 Lower Valley Road Atglen, PA 19310
Phone: +1 (215)593-1777  FAX: +1 (215)593-2022

As far as I know, they have published PzKpfw III (vol 3) and
Sturmgeschuetze (vol 13).  I've never seen advertised Panther
(vol 9).  $29.95-$39.95.

BTW, Some of you old WWII-Lers may remember an argument I made about
the "(official) names of panzers".  Volume 14 carefully takes care
of that problem!  Names are collected from various documents and
listed with date.  For example, Panzer IV/70 was called by ~20
different names.  Fuehrer's order was to call it _Panzer IV lang_
(on July 18th, 1944).

I really hope that next volume will cover "schwere Jagdpanzer"!
--
      Akira Takiguchi  VP, ATSON, Inc.  (a subsidiary of the Asahi Shimbun)
             CANAL TOWER  9-3 Nihonbashi-Koamicho Chuo-ku Tokyo 103  Japan
   +81 3 3666 2881(voice) 2882(fax)  EMAIL TO <akira@atson.asahi-np.co.jp>

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 2 Oct 1993 10:56:01 EDT
From:    lbscott <LBSCOTT@ECUVM1.BITNET>
Subject: Re: GEN: CIA Documents Released

The order was forwarded to collection development. Inge says that they have box
es of orders. Isuspect the answer is yes and no. Yes I ordered it, no I doubt t
he order has gone out of the building. As to if it will go out, your guess is a
s good as mine. Some stuff you ask for get ordered, others do not. I suspect th
at when lillie gets the book in doc ref, we will know it got ordered. You might
 check Marquis.....ha.ha.aha.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 2 Oct 1993 12:44:31 -0400
From:    Lydia Fish <FISHLM@SNYBUFVA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU>
Subject: Research Help -WWII- 969th Field Artillery

Forwarded from HISTORY

Please reply to original sender.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
From:         David Rattray <davrat@PANIX.COM>
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Subject:      Research help - WWII - 969th Field Artillery
To:           Multiple recipients of list HISTORY <HISTORY@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

I am trying to locate WWII veterans of the 969th Field Artillery Battalion
who served in the Battle of the Bulge for a PBS film marking the 50th
anniversary of the event.  This battalion, composed of afro-American men from
all over the United States received a Unit Citation for their role in
holding a critical crossroads near Bastogne for nine days. Their actions
allowed General Patton's forces access to the besieged region.

We are well represented with men from other Divisions, units, etc... but
are finding the members of the 969th hard to locate.  Any help or
suggestions wold be welcome.

David Rattray
Associate Producer
Lennon Documentary Group
NYC

--Boundary (ID qJkEsRCk9+hAtgSmjgEuhw)--

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 2 Oct 1993 13:46:49 -0400
From:    Max Hare <maxc@URSUS1.URSUS.MAINE.EDU>
Subject: WW2 Urban Legends/Folklore

Folks,

This talk of WW2 ghosts is interesting.  When I worked at the Pima Air
Museum in Tucson Arizona we had a B-29 on static display that had
actually seen combat over Japan.

People were always stopping the staff and asking "is this the haunted
B-29".....evidently at some air museum a B-29 is always found by the
arriving staff with all its hatches, windows open...things moved etc. at
opening in the morning even though the plane is in a locked area.

We never had anything like this happen to our B-29.  Has anyone heard of
another "haunted" aircraft at a static museum.

At Pima we had acres of airplanes and often I used to fill in for
security and drive the perimeter in a jeep at night...this was creepy
enough with the wind in the antena wires, loose ailerons flapping etc.!

Max C. Calderwood
University of Southern Maine
Gorham, ME
MAXC@URSUS1.URSUS.MAINE.EDU

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 2 Oct 1993 14:21:51 EDT
From:    "Rogers, Maureen <New Paltz High School>" <JD22@MARISTB.BITNET>
Subject: <No subject given>

subscribe wwII

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 2 Oct 1993 21:59:45 EST
From:    Jon Glazer <jongla@AFFIRM.AFFIRM.COM>
Subject: WWII Memorabilia

I was wonder (just wondering)...

My father is a veteran of WWII and landed on D-Day and all that...
but for a large part of the war, he was Gen. Patton's personal
photographer (rode his trian and followed him everywhere).  I am
currently in posession of a number of original photographs of Patton
and various members of his entorage (sp?).  This, of course, includes
the negatives.

The question is... would any of this be worth anything?  Not that I
would part with them but if they are, I would like to make sure that
they are stored in a secure, fire-proof place.

Thanks for any info...

Jon


 -------------------------------------------------------------------
 Jon Glazer                   | MHS (preferred):
 Affirmative Computer Systems |    jongla@affirm (614)-431-0122
 2097 Brittany Road           | Internet:
 Columbus, Ohio  43229        |    jongla@affirm.mhs.compuserve.com
 (614)-431-8943               |

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 1 Oct 1993 to 2 Oct 1993
***********************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 2 Oct 1993 to 3 Oct 1993
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There are 7 messages totalling 124 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. WWII Memorabilia
  2. Original Patton photos worth anything? ???!!! (5)
  3. Now Remagen Bridge photos? ???!!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 3 Oct 1993 10:54:19 EDT
From:    Jim Barr <ER676C@GWUVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: WWII Memorabilia

Jon,
    First of all, keep them safe!  Too much history has been lost through
neglect and accidents.  Sounds like quite a trove you've got...I'd urge you to
get in touch with the army in general or the 3rd (?) Army in particular.  They
would doubtless like to at least be able to duplicate the pictures/negatives
for their own use and historians'.
                                    Jim Barr
                                    er676c@gwuvm.bitnet
                                    er676c@gwuvm.gwu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 3 Oct 1993 14:44:05 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Original Patton photos worth anything? ???!!!

You've got to be kidding.  They're priceless.  Rather than selling them
  to a private collector (who will probably hoard and lose them), please
  consider donating (or selling?) them to West Point or the Patton Museum (and L
(and Library?).

Con Crane, do you suppose the Academy would be interested?

Lou Coatney

Your Dad is/was part (and a producer) of history, my friend!

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 3 Oct 1993 20:34:35 -0400
From:    KAPLAN@DUQ3.CC.DUQ.EDU
Subject: Re: Original Patton photos worth anything? ???!!!

Or, if you want to retain ownership of them. as you do, get copies of the
photos for yourself, and loan the negatives to one of the mentioned museums
or libraries for a specific amount of time, for a specific purpose...say one
photo from each negative.  The question from a practical and historical stand-
point, at least to me, is of what value or what good is derived from negatives
that are stored in a safe, dry place, without producing the images.  If you're
really interested in a project, and there are enough images, why not produce
a Patton photo history in print or CD-ROM format.

                                        Richard Kaplan
                                        kaplan@duq3.duq.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 3 Oct 1993 21:53:51 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Original Patton photos worth anything? ???!!!

Richard,

     Good ideas all.

Lou

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 3 Oct 1993 22:53:49 EST
From:    Jon Glazer <jongla@AFFIRM.AFFIRM.COM>
Subject: Re: Original Patton photos worth anything? ???!!!

> Or, if you want to retain ownership of them. as you do, get copies of the
> photos for yourself, and loan the negatives to one of the mentioned museums
> or libraries for a specific amount of time, for a specific purpose...say one
> photo from each negative.  The question from a practical and historical stand-
> point, at least to me, is of what value or what good is derived from negatives
> that are stored in a safe, dry place, without producing the images.  If you're
> really interested in a project, and there are enough images, why not produce
> a Patton photo history in print or CD-ROM format.
>

This is a really interesting idea.  I am not sure I have enough
Patton photos.  My father also worked for the army core of engineers
and did reconaisance photos of before and after bomb strikes (Ramagan
bridge for one and numerous other train stations and such).  Would
these be of any interest too?

Jon

 -------------------------------------------------------------------
 Jon Glazer                   |
 Affirmative Computer Systems |
 2097 Brittany Road           | Internet:
 Columbus, Ohio  43229        |    jongla@affirm.affirm.com
 (614)-431-8943               |

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 3 Oct 1993 22:43:20 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Now Remagen Bridge photos? ???!!!

John, you'd BETTER get those into circulation.  You've got HISTORY in your
  attic!  (Envious congratulations, Jon.)

Lou

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 3 Oct 1993 23:42:31 -0400
From:    KAPLAN@DUQ3.CC.DUQ.EDU
Subject: Re: Original Patton photos worth anything? ???!!!

Jon, again it depends on A: what you want to do or derive from this windfall,
and B: if you think they can or should be shared with the world at large.
The before and after photos probably don't have as much potential appeal to
the general public as the Patton ones do.  If you think there are not enough
pics to produce a work on your own, maybe you can find a collaborator, or
search public resources and archives for more negatives to supplement yours.

                                        Richard Kaplan
                                        kaplan@duq3.duq.edu

P.S. Keeping in mind the upcoming 50th anniversaries of the breakout from
Normandy, the Bulge, etc., there should be a market for something unique.

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 2 Oct 1993 to 3 Oct 1993
***********************************************

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There are 25 messages totalling 1146 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. MEDIA: Doolittle Funeral via Washington Post
  2. USAAF 2-4 OCT 43
  3. WWII Memorabilia
  4. More on photos (3)
  5. AP Account of Funeral (4)
  6. WW2 Urban Legends/Folklore (5)
  7. REF: Volume 14 of the series _Militaerfahrzeuge_
  8. REF: Military History Institute Refbibs.
  9. (American) diplomatic history net?
 10. Jimmy Doolittle
 11. Regensburg and Schweinfurt
 12. Doolittle Funeral (3)
 13. ADMIN: Patience, please.
 14. REF: New Journal!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 3 Oct 1993 23:35:29 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: MEDIA: Doolittle Funeral via Washington Post

Although I am one to diligently support copyright laws :-), I still wanted
to submit the text of an article from the Washington Post, even though I
don't have their permission.  But considering the royal treatment given
Miss Mitchell's crew (how often does the Pentagon tell you to "send us
your Christmas Wish List?"), I think we're OK.  :-)

There will be much more following in the future about the experience of our
crew and participation in the service.  There is everything from shock and
surprise (multi-star generals telling us they were honored to meet US (!!)
to visiting Col. Doolittle at Wright Patterson (he flew Miss Mitchell and
got three bounces in :-) and, when told by him to take a car, apparently
accidentally took HIS staff car (crew confused as to why everyone they
drove by snapped salutes at them.  :-)

A full report will take a while, however.  First thing Wednesday morning,
I, most of the D.C. Crew, several other people and Miss Mitchell departs
for the CAF Airshow in Midland, Texas (anyone going?  I'd like to hear from
you) for the week.  None of us returns until late evening on October 11th,
but we have an October 15th deadline for publication in one magazine.

Hopefully by then I can offer many personal insights, stories and
observations.  Until then, I am hoping to hear from people who were
there and hear their memories of the service...

In any case, I wholly support paragraph #3 in the article below and am
ecstatic to see that the beliefs and recognitions of certain things that
are important (mostly, history), really are still alive...

[Note, article Copyright, 1993 Washington Post.  All typos mine.]



IN ARLINGTON, FULL HONORS FOR A SKY-BLAZING HERO
Hundreds Attend Funeral of Gen. Jimmy Doolittle

By Peter Pae, Washington Post Staff Writer
2 October 1993

        Retired Air Force Sgt. Ray Ostlie [*1] looked up at the clear blue
sky and grimaced as a B-1 supersonic bomber flew by, thundering over the
funeral of Gen. James H. "Jimmy" Doolittle, the famed World War II
aviator.

        The symbol of the modern Air Force was too noisy for even the
hardiest veteran airmen who visited Arlington National Cemetery yesterday
for a final salute to one of their own flyboys.  Some covered their ears
to soften the B-1's deafening roar.

        But when a diminutive, twin-propeller World War II B-25 bomber
whirled by [*2], the somber mood of of the day suddenly erupted into
fist-waving and clapping.  Like several others, Ostlie, a B-25 cew chief
who worked under Doolittle in the North African campaign in 1943, sighed
and smiled.

        "Perhaps Doolittle was also smiling," said Ostlie, 73.  It was in
a B-25 "Mitchell" bomber that Doolittle became famous, leading a risky
raid on Tokyo five months after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.  The
raid by Doolittle's crew bolstered sagging American morale and made
Doolittle a war hero.

        Yesterday, two dozen men who flew that mission -- "Doolittle
Raiders," they were called -- joined Doolittle's family and friends to
pay tribute.  Doolittle, 96, died Monday at his Pebble Beach, Calif.,
home.

        Befitting his impact on U.S. aviation history, Doolittle was
given a full honors funeral by the Air Force, an elaborate ceremony
reserved for dignitaries and top officers.  It included a 21-gun salute
and a flyover by 11 aircraft, included eight F-15 and F-16 fighter jets
and a C-141 cargo jet.

        "The Air Force and America has lost one of its greatest airmen and
one of its bravest heroes," said Gen. Merrill A. McPeak, Air Force chief
of staff.  "A sterling chapter in aviation history is closed."

        Although Doolittle was best known for leading the April 1942 raid
on Tokyo and three other Japanese cities, his career was distinguished by
several accomplishments.  He became the first person to fly across the
United States in less than 24 hours and the first to fly "blind,"
relying only on flight instruments to take off and land.

        For the U.S. military, he played a pivotal role in creating the
Air Force in 1947.  In between breaking speed and other aviation records,
Doolittle was awarded the Medal of Honor.

        "You could say he was the first president of the Air Force," said
Col. Doug Kennett, an Air Force spokesman.

        After a service at the Fort Myer Memorial Chapel, Doolittle's
flag-draped coffin was placed on a military caisson.  Drawn by six
horses, the caisson traveled down a winding road from the chapel to
the grave.  Leading the entourage was the U.S. Air Force Band and 50
honor guards; hundreds of mourners followed the caisson.

        After a brief graveside service, one of the Doolittle Raiders
tried to play taps in honor of his former leader.

        But retired Col. Bill Bower, who had been the pilot on the No. 12
bomber (there were 16 bombers that flew the mission), could manage only a
few faltered notes before having the pass the bugle to Doolittle's great-
grandson.

        Paul D. Crane Jr., wearing his hair in a pigtail that was out of
place among the crew cuts, then finished taps, flawlessly.



Notes:
[*1] Ray Ostlie arrived as crewmember on board the Wing's B-25, Miss
     Mitchell.  Ray is also the crew chief of the original Miss Mitchell
     in Corsica and Italy, 1944-1945.  His name also appears on the side
     of the aircraft in exactly the same way it did 50 years ago.

[*2] Aircraft fly-by order: 4 F-16s, flying missing man; 4 F-15s, the C-141,
     a B-1 and Miss Mitchell.  [Added note: Although the only non-active
     duty military aircraft in the fly-by, she was also the first civilian
     aircraft to _ever_ take part in a military fly-by at Arlington.]

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 07:14:24 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 2-4 OCT 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  F4U, Vought Corsair (USN)
  L-4, Piper Cub/Grasshopper
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  Zeke, Mitsubishi A6M, Navy Type 0 Carrier Fighter

SATURDAY, 2 OCTOBER 1943

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 5 P-40's dive-bomb and strafe Yangtze River
shipping in the Chiuchiang, China area. Strafing damages several small
craft.
  HQ 51st Fighter Group transfers from Dinjan, India to Kunming, China and
is reassigned from the Tenth to Fourteenth Air Force.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): VIII Bomber Command
Mission 106: 349 B-17's are dispatched to the industrial area of Emden,
Germany; led by 2 B-17 pathfinders, 339 hit the target at 1557-1603 hours;
they claim 15-6-12 Luftwaffe aircraft; 2 B-17's are lost and 34 damaged;
casualties are 2 WIA and 21 MIA. The B-17's are escorted by 227 P-47's who
claim 5-3-1 Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 P-47 is damaged. In addition to the
above, 21 B-24's are dispatched to Woensdrecht Airfield, The Netherlands;
the target is obscured by clouds and the mission is aborted.
  VIII Air Support Command Mission 75: 72 B-26's are dispatched to the St
Omer/Longuenesse Airfield in France; because of cloud cover, only 6 hit the
target at 1715 hours; the remainder refrain from bombing because the target
is in occupied territory; 12 B-26's are damaged; casualties are 1 KIA and
4 WIA.
  VIII Bomber Command Mission 107: 2 B-17's join the Royal Air Force (RAF)
in a night mission to Munich; no losses or casualties.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): Brigadier General
Gordon P Saville becomes Commanding General, XII Fighter Command. Weather
curtails operations. In Italy, fighter-bombers of the XII Air Support Command
attack motor transport, roads, and bridges during armed reconnaissance
missions from the Volturno Valley N to Isernia and W to Benevento.
  The 64th and 65th Fighter Squadrons, 57th Fighter Group, transfer from
Rocco Bernardo to Foggia, Italy with P-40's.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): 6 B-25's join
US Navy dive bombers in attacking Hamberi Cove barge hideout near Vila on
Kolombangara Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): On New Britain
Island, B-25's strafe villages in the Talasea area and barges off Gasmata
Island; B-26's bomb Hoskins Airfield; and a B-24 bombs Cape Gloucester
Airfield. Other B-24's bomb Amboina Island in the Moluccas Islands.
Australian forces take the town and harbor of Finschhafen and prepare to take
nearby commanding positions still held by the Japanese.
  The 6th Troop Carrier Squadron transfers from Port Moresby, New Guinea to
Garbutt Field, Townsville, Queensland, Australia with C-47's.

SUNDAY, 3 OCTOBER 1943

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 7 P-40's damage a 250-ft (76.2 m)
vessel on the Yangtze River near Chiuchiang; 4 P-38's bomb Chiuchiang docks;
6 B-24's damage a 100-ft (30.5 m) coastal freighter off Tonkon Point on
Hainan Island.
  A detachment of the 76th Fighter Squadron, 23d Fighter Group, based at
Hengyang, China begins operating from Suichwan, China with P-40's.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): VIII Air Support Command
Missions 76, 77 and 78:
  1. 36 B-26's are dispatched to the Lille/Vendeveille Airfield in France
but weather prevents their hitting the target.
  2. 131 of 144 B-26's dispatched to Amsterdam/Schiphol (71 aircraft),
Woensdrecht (34 aircraft) and Haamstede (26 aircraft) Airfields in the
Netherlands hit their targets at 1120-1136 hours; 47 B-26's are damaged.
  3. 72 B-26's are dispatched to Beauvais/Tille Airfield, France; 63 hit
the target at 1724-1727 hours; 1 B-26 is lost and 27 damaged.
  Total casualties for all missions are 5 WIA.
  The 153d Liaison Squadron, 67th Observation Group, transfers from Keevil
to Membury, England with A-20's and L-4's.
  The 328th, 329th, 330th and 409th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), 93d
Bombardment Group (Heavy), cease operating from Oudna, Tunisia and return
to their base at Hardwick, England with B-24's.
  The 564th, 565th, 566th and 567th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), 389th
Bombardment Group (Heavy), cease operating from Massicault, Tunisia and
return to their base at Hethel, England with B-24's.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, XII
Bomber Command B-26's, B-25's, and P-38's bomb railroad, highway, and
pontoon bridges, an overpass, and road junction at Capua, Castel Volturno,
Piana, Arce, Mignano, and Isernia; P-38's also hit shipping between Corsica
and Italy. XII Bomber Command fighter-bombers hit motor transport in the
battle area as US Fifth Army troops take Benevento.
  HQ 82d Fighter Group and it's 95th, 96th and 97th Fighter Squadrons
transfer from Grombalia, Tunisia to San Pancrazio, Italy with P-38's.
  HQ 313th Troop Carrier Group and it's 29th Troop Carrier Squadron
transfer from Sciacca to Trapani/Milo Airfield, Sicily with C-47's.
  HQ 321st Bombardment Group (Medium) and it's 445th, 446th and 447th
Bombardment Squadrons (Medium) transfer from Soliman, Tunisia to
Grottaglie, Italy with B-25's.
  HQ 324th Fighter Group and it's 314th, 315th and 316th Fighter Squadrons
transfer from El Haouaria to Menzel Heurr, Tunisia with P-40's. These units
have been regrouping since Jul 43.
  Detachments of the 512th, 513th and 514th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy),
376th Bombardment Group (Heavy), based at Enfidaville, Tunisia begin
operating from Bengasi, Libya with B-24's.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): P-39's strafe
several barges W of Choiseul Island in the Solomon Islands.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): B-25's continue
to hit barges along the W coast of New Britain Island in the Bismarck
Archipelago.
  The 431st Fighter Squadron, 475th Fighter Group, ceases operating from
Port Moresby and returns to it's base at Dobodura, New Guinea with P-38's.

MONDAY, 4 OCTOBER 1943

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 17 Japanese bombers and 25 Zekes attack
Kweilin Airfield, China. The bombs, dropped from 20,000 feet (6,096 m),
fail to hit the target. AAF fighters fail to make effective contact with
the force.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): VIII Bomber Command
Mission 108: 4 targets in Germany and a diversion are flown. 12 B-17's and
4 B-24's are lost.
  1. 104 B-17's are dispatched to the Wiesbaden industrial area; 15
aircraft hit Wiesbaden and 77 hit the industrial area at Frankfurt at
1059-1105 hours; they claim 19-3-15 Luftwaffe aircraft; 5 B-17's are lost
and 45 damaged; casualties are 2 KIA, 8 WIA and 40 MIA.
  2. 37 of 51 B-17's dispatched to Frankfurt hit the target at 1110-1111
hours; they claim 18-8-22 Luftwaffe aircraft; 3 B-17's are lost and 35
damaged; casualties are 1 KIA, 2 WIA and 30 MIA.
  3. 115 B-17's are dispatched to the Saarlautern industrial area; 67 hit
Saarlautern and 38 hit St Dizier/Robinson Airfield in France at 1136-1148
hours; they claim 37-7-7 Luftwaffe aircraft; 4 B-17's are lost, 4 are
damaged beyond repair and 19 damaged; casualties are 6 WIA and 29 MIA.
  4. 47 of 53 B-17's dispatched hit Sarreguemnines and Saarbrucken
marshalling yards at 1133-1139 hours; 2 B-17's are damaged; no casualties.
  5. 38 B-24's fly a diversion; they claim 13-6-3 Luftwaffe aircraft; 4
B-24's are lost and 19 damaged; casualties are 11 WIA and 43 MIA.
  These missions are escorted by 223 P-47's; they claim 19-1-2 Luftwaffe
aircraft; 1 P-47 is damaged beyond repair and 15 damaged; casualties are 1
KIA.
  VIII Air Support Command Mission 79: 25 B-26's are dispatched to
Beauvais/Nivilliers and Evreux/Fauville Airfield in France; they return to
base without bombing.
  VIII Bomber Command Mission 109: 4 B-17's drop 240,352 leaflets over
Paris between 2257-2307 hours.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, 100+ XII
Bomber Command B-17's bomb the Pisa marshalling yard and Bolzano bridges;
B-25's and B-26's attack the airfield at Argos, road defiles at Terracina
and Isernia, a highway overpass at Mignano, and shipping at Bastia;
Northwest African Tactical Bomber Force (NATBF) aircraft hit road and rail
junctions on the main road N from Capua; XII Air Support Command
fighter-bombers hit trains, roads, railroads, and vehicles near Isernia,
Avezzano, Pescara, and Isolella. The Allies now have complete control of
Corsica.
  The 5th Photographic Squadron (Light), Twelfth Air Force, based at La
Marsa, Tunisia begins operating from Pontecagnano, Italy with F-5's.
  The 87th Fighter Squadron, 79th Fighter Group, transfers from Crotone to
Salsola, Italy with P-40's.
  The 94th Fighter Squadron, 1st Fighter Group, based at Mateur, Tunisia
sends a detachment to Gambut, Libya with P-38's.
  The 448th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 321st Bombardment Group
(Medium), transfers from Soliman, Tunisia to Grottaglie, Italy with B-25's.
  "A" Flight of the 15th Photographic Squadron (Heavy), 3d Photographic
Reconnaissance and Mapping Group, based at La Marsa, Tunisia sends a
detachment to Grottaglie, Italy with B-17's and F-5's. "B" and "C" Flights
are still in the US.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, 23 B-24's, covered by 16 P-38's and several US Navy F4U's, bomb
Kahili Airfield on Bougainville Island; 20-30 fighters intercept, and a
running battle occurs between Bougainville and Vella Lavella Island; US
fighters and bombers claim 9 fighters downed; no American losses are
suffered. 4 P-39's and 4 F4U's sink 18 barges in a strike along the W coast
of Choiseul Island. The P-39's are especially effective because of their
nose cannon.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): B-25's bomb and
strafe barges, small craft, and villages on Vitu Island in the Bismarck
Archipelago.
  The 22d Troop Carrier Squadron, 374th Troop Carrier Group, transfers from
Port Moresby, New Guinea to Garbutt Field, Townsville, Queensland, Australia
with C-47's.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
 Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 06:47:21 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: WWII Memorabilia

Dear Jon,

Yes, they are worth something. The photographs that could be made
from those negatives would be excellent material for a book on
General Patton and/or combat situations involving the 3rd Army. Think
about that. I am certain that with guidance you could produce an
interesting book on General Patton.

I take it that these were personal photos and not made under the
auspices of the Army.

Please let me know what you think.

Terry Moore

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 08:20:00 EST
From:    "W. C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <ERCOUPE@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: More on photos

This discussion of photos prompts me to put a question to the list
on propriety.

When my aunt passed away, we were going thru boxes of stuff she had
gotten at various antique sales and flea markets.  In the bottom of
one box we found a photo album.

We were going to toss it out but closer examination shows it to be
what looks like a collection of photos recounting a Japanese soldier's
career in the military in WWII.  The album starts with pictures of the
family, and then what appears to be basic training exercises.  Then
there are photos of the Manchurian campaign, and near the end, some
photos of Hirohito and Tojo, close up.  All the captions are in Japanese,
hand lettered.  The photos are in rather good shape.

Curently the album is being liiked over by someone fluent in Japanese
to get explicit translations of the captions, but they told me that
this appears to be a personal documentary.

If this is the property of a Japanese soldier, I am hoping to track
down the owner, or his family, and return it to them.  I would imagine
it has some real sentimental value in this regard.

What would be a good lead on an initial contact in Japan to find the
family of this soldier?  Any ideas?

Bill
N93774@vms.cis.pitt.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 07:48:59 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: More on photos

Dear Bill,

It seems to me that the liklihood of that Japanese soldier being
alive after all these years would be nil. It seems to me that they
would have been confiscated from the soldier after his demise.

Me feeling is that you could try, but, if the search proves
unfruitful, then consider having them published. Any such material
would be highly sought after since it had never before been
published. If there aren't enough of them for a book, then perhaps for
an article.

What are your thoughts?

Terry


Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 09:00:21 LCL
From:    Tom Shirhall <tshirhal@IDA.ORG>
Subject: AP Account of Funeral

Miss Mitchell got top billing from AP

AP in the Washington Times

             LONE B-25 JOINS AIR SALUTE TO DOOLITTLE

     Ge. James H. "Jimmy" Doolittle, the aviation pioneer and World
War II hero, was buried at Arlington National Cemetery yesterday in
a service with full military honors.

     After a memorial service at nearby Fort Myer Memorial Chapel,
the casket, covered with an American flag, was carried atop a
horse-drawn caisson to a hillside grave site framed by a row of
tall oaks, a grove of pines and a large maple.

     Defense Secretary Les Aspin and Gen. Merrill McPeak, the Air
Force chief of staff, stood side by side at the grave site and
greeted the procession, which included Gen. Doolittle's son,
retired Air. Force Col. John P. Doolittle, and his wife Priscilla,
as well as three grandchildren and five great-grandchildren.

     The Doolittle plot is in a section of the cemetery just below
the Unknowns. Nearby is the grave of Michael John Smith, the pilot
of the space shuttle Challenger.

     Gen. Doolittle, who died at the age of 96 of a stroke Monday
in California, is best known for leading "Doolittle's Raiders" in
a daring bombing on Tokyo and other Japanese cities in April 1942.
It made him a household name in America.

     The 16 B-25 bombers were launched from the decks of the
aircraft carried Hornet about 650 miles from Tokyo. Seventy of the
82 crew members survived and returned to the United States, even
though most had to bail out before reaching their landing zone in
China. Some of the survivors attended the funeral.

     In 1942, Gen. Doolittle received the Medal of Honor, the
nation's highest military decoration, for "personal valor and
intrepidity at an extreme hazard to life."

     A highlight of yesterday's service was the Air Force flyover,
a ceremonial tribute marked by the appearance of a restored B-25
bomber that was brought in from Minnesota.

     Four F-16 fighters streaked across the brilliant blue sky,
followed by four F-15 jets in the "missing man" formation. They
were trailed by a C-141 cargo plane, B1-B bomber in a low level
fly-by. Finally the B-25 soared by and dipped a wing.

     Gen. Doolittle was given a 21 gun salute.

     Gen. McPeak said afterward that Gen. Doolittle was an aviation
pioneer whose contributions to military aviation went far beyond
the heroism of his wartime services.

     "The Air Force exists today in good part because of Jimmy
Doolittle," he said.

Four column picture of family at gravesite with Col. Doolittle
wearing a tie with aviator's wings as the pattern

Tom Shirhall            tshirhal@ida.org

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 09:58:10 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: WW2 Urban Legends/Folklore

> Folks,
>
> This talk of WW2 ghosts is interesting.  When I worked at the Pima Air
> Museum in Tucson Arizona we had a B-29 on static display that had
> actually seen combat over Japan.
>
> People were always stopping the staff and asking "is this the haunted
> B-29".....evidently at some air museum a B-29 is always found by the
> arriving staff with all its hatches, windows open...things moved etc. at
> opening in the morning even though the plane is in a locked area.
>
> We never had anything like this happen to our B-29.  Has anyone heard of
> another "haunted" aircraft at a static museum.

We've purposely haunted our B-25.  By restoring as perfectly and accurately
as possible, we put the memories and experiences of the men who flew on
board her back into the aircraft.  You gotta listen closely, but you can
hear their stories...

One of the reasons I like the fact we call ourselves "The Ghost Squadron."

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 10:28:11 -0400
From:    "M. Joseph Barone" <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: WW2 Urban Legends/Folklore

        Max's story of a haunted B-29 reminded me of a movie from the
early 1970s, "Sole Survivor".  I believe it starred Richard Basehart.
The premise is that the present-day (~1970) USAF finds a downed B-17
in the North African desert and they open an inquiry about it since
the only survivor of the craft (Basehart, now a general) said that
the craft went down in the Med.  The audience can see the spirits of
the nine aviators trying to help the AF solve the mystery.  As a kid,
it gave me goosebumps.  I haven't seen it since, so the movie may not
have passed the test of time.
--
Joe Barone
m1b@rayssd.ssd.ray.com
We are holding ourselves in reserve in case the Krauts mount a
counteroffensive that threatens Paris or, uh, New York.  Then we
can move in and stop them.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 10:32:43 -0400
From:    "M. Joseph Barone" <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: REF: Volume 14 of the series _Militaerfahrzeuge_

> BTW, Some of you old WWII-Lers may remember an argument I made about
> the "(official) names of panzers".  Volume 14 carefully takes care
> of that problem!  Names are collected from various documents and
> listed with date.  For example, Panzer IV/70 was called by ~20
> different names.  Fuehrer's order was to call it _Panzer IV lang_
> (on July 18th, 1944).

So, Akira, what's the resolution to that Panzer VI tank destroyer
that debutted at Kursk?  Is it a Ferdinand or an Elefant?  Thanks.
--
Joe Barone
m1b@rayssd.ssd.ray.com
Matelin: They think you're General DeGaulle.
General: DeGaulle? He's not even in this war!

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 11:06:40 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: WW2 Urban Legends/Folklore

Dear Joe,

That sounds like a take-off on the "Lady-Be-Good" story. That
particular B-17 was found in the 1960's. The coffee found on board
was still drinkable. The crew abandoned the aircraft thinking they
were over water.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 11:08:36 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: REF: Military History Institute Refbibs.

Larry,

Did you get my messages? Will try again, after I hear from you.


Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 11:10:27 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: AP Account of Funeral

Tom,

Thank you for that article. It sure makes me wish I could have been
there.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 11:35:59 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: (American) diplomatic history net?

Does anyone know of a usergroup/net devoted to (American) diplomatic
  history?  (and/or just American diplomacy?)

Thanks for any help.

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 13:31:13 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: Jimmy Doolittle

SUBJ:  AIR FORCE NEWS SERVICE FEATURES
ELECTRONIC BULLETIN BOARD FILENAME:  193OCT 01
THIS MESSAGE IN ONE PART
THIS PACKAGE CONTAINS 6 FEATURES
     This electronic features package is published semi-monthly, on the 1st
and 15th of each month, by the Air Force News Agency, 1015 Billy
Mitchell Rd., Kelly AFB, TX, 78241-5601.
&          &          &
&          &          &
&          &          &
105.  GEN. JIMMY DOOLITTLE:  LESSON AND LEGACY --  A
tribute to the late World War II legacy who taught some very valuable
lessons.
AFNEWSIIOP105  GEN. JIMMY DOOLITTLE:  LESSON AND
LEGACY
BY LT. COL. KATIE CUTLER, IMA
AIR FORCE NEWS AGENCY, KELLY AFB, TEXAS
     "Our boy's dead," said the president of the senior citizens center,
speaking softly into the ear of Myfanwy Schmid as she prepared her
music at the piano for the luncheon program.
     Indeed, the death at 96 of Gen. Jimmy Doolittle, on Sept. 27, was felt
with the same sadness usually reserved for a family member.  The kinship
of a generation to one of America's true heroes, the leader of the famous
April 18, 1942, raid on Tokyo that kindled the country's winning spirit in
World War II, was not just a case of clinging to long-ago memories.
     At the Golden Gate Senior Center in San Francisco, many 50-year-old
memories of General Doolittle had been refreshed in the past year by one
of their own, a member of the eighty-something generation.
     It's a story of how sharing the Air Force mission and history with
neighbors and family extends our reach.  As surely as the KC-10
Extender enables fighters and bombers and transport aircraft to extend
their reach to faraway spots on the globe, explaining Air Force victories,
or passing along an article of interest to civilian friends, can extend the
understanding of the role of our service in the nation's defense.
     That's how the seniors at Golden Gate came to develop their sense of
family with Jimmy Doolittle, although they never met.  To mark the 50th
anniversary of the Tokyo raid, Airman magazine ran a brief retrospective
of the general (April 1992), which I had based on his autobiography, "I
Could Never Be So Lucky Again."  Sharing anecdotes and finally the
printed article with my mother piqued her interest until she borrowed the
book herself.  She admired his intelligence, his bravery, his role in the
birth of the Air Force and his love for his family, particularly his wife,
Joe.
     And soon the reach was extended.  Myfanwy Schmid made her first
presentation on the life of Jimmy Doolittle to the Golden Gate Senior
Center as part of a Veteran's Day program in November a year ago.
     The life of this aerospace pioneer sparked an interest in all who heard
my mother's report.  She polished the story of Doolittle and took it on
the road, so to speak.  To a series of senior centers, to church groups and
social organizations.  Altogether, she has spoken to several hundred
people in more than half a dozen organizations.
    A visit to her church meant talking about Doolittle and the Air Force
with choir members.  A mention of the Tokyo Raid on network television
brought phone calls to my mother to make sure she had caught the
program.  An exciting chapter in Air force history that had been all but
forgotten by hundreds of people who had lived through World War II as
adults was re-taught by this retired school teacher.
     One of her new goals is to have a postage stamp to honor him.  "If
they can have one for Elvis, they surely can have one for Doolittle," she
says pointedly.
     When word of Jimmy Doolittle's death in nearby Pebble Beach
reached the Golden Gate senior Center, Myf Schmid was hard at work
on the program for this year's Veteran's Day program.  She had already
planned a moment of silence in memory of all who have served their
country.  One more veteran will be added to their prayers this year, their
"boy," Gen. Jimmy Doolittle.  (AFNS Features.)
&          &          &
&          &          &
&          &          &
--

      // \\
    //     \\                    Air Force News Agency
   |         |               Kelly Air Force Base, Texas, USA
   \\  {*}  //                   bergman@afpan.pa.af.mil
   \  CMSgt  /      ___________________ /____________________________________
   \  Mike   /
   \ Bergman /
     \     /

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 13:36:47 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: Regensburg and Schweinfurt

SUBJ:  AIR FORCE NEWS SERVICE FEATURES
ELECTRONIC BULLETIN BOARD FILENAME:  193OCT 01
&          &          &
&          &          &
&          &          &
AFNEWSIIOP110  WORLD WAR II:  SCHWEINFURT-
REGENSBURG RAIDS
BY W. STUART HARRIS, AIR FORCE HISTORICAL RESEARCH
AGENCY
MAXWELL, AFB, ALABAMA
     Half a century ago, the United States Eighth Air Force conducted its
largest daylight bombing raid over Germany to that time.  The historian of
the 91st Bombardment Group (Heavy) wrote, "The target required a deeper
penetration and more time over enemy territory than any mission yet assigned
to the entire Eighth Air Force."
     Committed to precision bombing, American military leaders had sought a
vital target, a vulnerable spot in the Nazi war machine.  As part of
Operation Pointblank, an attempt to break the power of the Luftwaffe, the
U.S. Army Air Forces planned virtually simultaneous raids on the German
ball-bearing industry at Schweinfurt and the Messerschmitt aircraft complex
at Regensburg.
     On the morning of 17 Aug 43, 376 B-17 Flying Fortresses departed the
United Kingdom for the two-pronged raid deep into Germany.  P-47 Thunderbolt
and Royal Air Force Spitfire fighters escorted these bombers across the
English Channel.  Unfortunately, soon after crossing the Channel, the
fighters reached their range and returned to their bases, leaving the
bombers to continue unescorted.  Prior to reaching the target area, German
Bf-109s and FW-190s continually attacked the Flying Fortresses.
     At Regensburg, the Eighth AF bombers dropped 300 tons of bombs,
severely damaging the Messerschmitt works while destroying numerous
new fighters.  Bombing was less accurate at Schweinfurt, but the B-17s
did make 80 bomb hits on the ball-bearing factories.  Unfortunately, the
raids cost the Eighth AF 60 bombers, 16 percent of those launched.
Approximately 85 percent of the losses were to enemy fighters.
     Almost two months later, on 14 Oct 43, the Eighth AF again staged a
raid on Schweinfurt, dropping 483 tons of bombs which extensively
damaged the German ball-bearing industry.  But, the Eighth lost 60
additional Flying Fortresses, just under 20 percent of its force.  Well over
half of the losses were to German fighters.
     The Regensburg and Schweinfurt raids produced valuable lessons that
the U.S. Army Air Forces successfully applied to the strategic bombing
campaign.  The high losses convinced the leaders of the U.S. Air Forces
to end unescorted daylight bombing raids into Germany as a general
practice.  To provide the needed escorts, the Army Air Forces developed
external gasoline tanks which could be released as soon as the fuel was
consumed.  These extended the range of P-51 escorts, allowing them to
accompany bombers all the way to their targets.  Protected by escorts,
American bombers probed deep into Germany, forcing the dispersal of
German factories.  This dispersal caused a temporary but serious decline
in German industrial production.
     More important strategic bombing paralyzed German transportation
and seriously attrited the growing number of fighters assigned to air
defense, contributing to the collapse of the German War Machine.
(AFNS Features.)
--
      // \\
    //     \\                    Air Force News Agency
   |         |               Kelly Air Force Base, Texas, USA
   \\  {*}  //                   bergman@afpan.pa.af.mil
   \  CMSgt  /      ___________________ /____________________________________
   \  Mike   /
   \ Bergman /
     \     /

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 13:40:50 -0500
From:    "Sidney W. Kitchel" <kitchel@OCTOPUS.DPSI.COM>
Subject: Re: AP Account of Funeral

Terry Moore writes:
|->
|-> Tom,
|->
|-> Thank you for that article. It sure makes me wish I could have been
|-> there.

        Me too!! I even wished we got to see more on TV. They showed
the gun salute and the F-16 fly-by. But I didn't get to see Miss
Mitchell, which was a disappointment. I'm triply mad now that I didn't
get to see her when I was in St. Paul a year or so ago.

                                                        --Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel           kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 13:43:15 -0500
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: WW2 Urban Legends/Folklore

In your message of  4 Oct 1993 at 1043 CDT, you write:
>         Max's story of a haunted B-29 reminded me of a movie from the
> early 1970s, "Sole Survivor".  I believe it starred Richard Basehart.
> The premise is that the present-day (~1970) USAF finds a downed B-17
> in the North African desert and they open an inquiry about it since
> the only survivor of the craft (Basehart, now a general) said that
> the craft went down in the Med.  The audience can see the spirits of
> the nine aviators trying to help the AF solve the mystery.  As a kid,
> it gave me goosebumps.  I haven't seen it since, so the movie may not
> have passed the test of time.
> --
> Joe Barone


Joe hit on another of my all time favorite movies!  Its based on the
story of the Lady Be Good, a B-24 that overflew their beacon one night
and went down in the desert.  The crew thought they were over the Med
and bailed out with rubber boats and water survival stuff.  The plane
nosed into the sand to be lost until an oil exploration company found
it during a survey.  It still had its .50 guns which meant that nobody
had yet found it till that time.

They found coffee in thermoses that was still hot and drinkable and
very little corrosion to the aircraft.  The crew got together by
firing their .45s until they all got together but one (who roman
candled into the desert - who, by the way, was the only one to go in
with a full canteen).  The Air Force investigators found him in the
while investigating the wreck and trying to find the rest of the crew.
The crew, in their diary, just mentioned that he was never found.

The crew then started out for the coast and eventually died in the
desert after several days trek.  The upshot of this story was that it
rewrote the Air Force Desert Survival manual because these men made it
farther than the manual said was humanly possible.  They had left
markers made of strips of parachute material to show the way they went
and it led the team right to them - just 20 years too late.  The main
party stayed together as they were weak and couldn't go on but three
others when further until they too died.  Two were found and the last
guy never was recovered as he continued on WELL beyond where the
manuals suggested was possible.  Truly an amazing story.  The book is
called _Lady Be Good_ and I forget the author but it has many of the
diary entries that really tell a tale.  The movie was very well done
and it gave me goosebumps too.

Bill Huber
whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 15:02:10 LCL
From:    Tom Shirhall <tshirhal@IDA.ORG>
Subject: Doolittle Funeral

Having been to three funerals of flag officers buried from the Fort Myer
Memorial Chapel, I can tell you that the events in the chapel were as moving
as the public burial. I wonder if Bob Granvin could prevail upon Sgt. Ostlie
and others who were at the service to describe it. In fact, Sgt. Ostlie
might be able to obtain a transcript of the eulogy. The military is very
obliging about this sort of thing. If you need any help, I may be able to
provide appropriate contacts.

Tom Shirhall                    tshirhal@ida.org

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 15:27:22 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: AP Account of Funeral

> Terry Moore writes:
> |->
> |-> Tom,
> |->
> |-> Thank you for that article. It sure makes me wish I could have been
> |-> there.
>
>         Me too!! I even wished we got to see more on TV. They showed
> the gun salute and the F-16 fly-by. But I didn't get to see Miss
> Mitchell, which was a disappointment. I'm triply mad now that I didn't
> get to see her when I was in St. Paul a year or so ago.

Well, without trying to get too consumer-centric :-), we started
working on a video about Miss Mitchell this year.  We had a camera
crew shooting footage at Arlington as well.  I'm _told_ we got good
footage, but I need to see it first.  If it's good, it's going to get
into the finished product -- But that's still something that won't
be completed until next summer.

Meanwhile, I've got a request in to CNN for a copy of their raw footage.
But even if I get it, I can't release it.  Catch-22.

On the other hand, we're going to Midland, Texas this weekend, so if
anyone is going that way... :-)

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 15:50:01 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Doolittle Funeral

> Having been to three funerals of flag officers buried from the Fort Myer
> Memorial Chapel, I can tell you that the events in the chapel were as moving
> as the public burial. I wonder if Bob Granvin could prevail upon Sgt. Ostlie
> and others who were at the service to describe it. In fact, Sgt. Ostlie
> might be able to obtain a transcript of the eulogy. The military is very
> obliging about this sort of thing. If you need any help, I may be able to
> provide appropriate contacts.

We made more contacts than we can shake a stick at.  A "high ranking
dude" at the Pentagon literally told us to "send them our Christmas
Wish List."  :-)  The suggestion to get a transcript of the eulogy is
an excellent idea.  If you can provide contacts, I might be able to get
to it faster than Ray...

We are debriefing at Midland this week.  A full report will be available,
but it will take at least a week to 10 days before I can provide one.

I will note one thing, though -- I have NEVER seen Ray Ostlie so
ecstatic in all his life.  Although funerals are extremely somber
and military ones are very formal, they clearly did a fantastic job
of making this one not only memorable, but in a strange way,
"enjoyable."

I only wish more people could have experienced it firsthand (myself
included) and that the Associated Press had at least sent a reporter
that know what the Doolittle Raid WAS.

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 17:00:17 EDT
From:    Jim Barr <ER676C@GWUVM.BITNET>
Subject: Doolittle Funeral

Hello all,
    I was able to take time out to go down to Arlington Friday for the funeral,
but wasn't able to get very close to the ceremony itself.  I was told by the
cemetery officials that the chapel service would be packed, so I chose to try
instead to be on hand for the internment and fly-over.  I saw the procession
pass by from the chapel, and then viewed part of the graveside ceremony from
the side before moving up to the top steps of the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.
>From there I had a wonderful view of Washington and the incoming aircraft,
which went directly overhead.  Afterwards, I wound my way back out by some
random path (I don't know the layout very well) and had the fortune to pass
by Chennault's grave, which I thought of as an interesting coincidence.  But
then again, there's a lot of history there to find...
    Thanks to RJG and the rest of the Miss Mitchell crowd for their efforts at
keeping her flying.  It was wonderful to see her up there holding her own with
those "new-fangled" planes.  Later all,
                                       Jim Barr
                                       er676c@gwuvm.bitnet
                                       er676c@gwuvm.gwu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Oct 1993 01:32:59 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVSDS.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: WW2 Urban Legends/Folklore

> They found coffee in thermoses that was still hot and drinkable and
                                          _________


> and it led the team right to them - just 20 years too late.  The main


Slightly exaggerated?

Emmanuel.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 19:36:35 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: ADMIN: Patience, please.

Your faithful list-tender has the flu. I'm monitoring the list but my
replies will be limited (or Kim will hide my keyboard!) so please be
patient while waiting for answers back from me. Urgent help matters handled
first and ASAP as always, other matters deferred but not forgotten.

Thanks,
Larry J

JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 21:15:50 -0300
From:    Mike Bechthold <bech8607@MACH1.WLU.CA>
Subject: REF: New Journal!

I've had quite a few responses to this post so I thought I would post the
subscription information to the entire group.

In the U.S. a one year subscription is $14US plus $5 shipping and handling
In Canada, a one year subscription is $15 CAN and a 2 year subscription is $28
In the U.K. a one year subscription is 8 pounds sterling plus 5 pounds
shipping and handling.

For a limited time a free copy of the premier issue of CMH will be added
to each paid subscription.

Send a cheque or money order payable to Wilfrid Laurier University to:

Canadian Military History
Wilfrid Laurier University
Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA
N2L 3C5


Hi,

I want to announce to the group a new journal that may interest some.

"Canadian Military History" is a biannual publication out of Wilfrid
Laurier University in Waterloo, Ontario, Canada.  It has been described by
reviewers as a "Journal-in-a-Magazine-format".  We are combining articles
written by professional historians, veterans and others with original
documents such as after-action reports and book reviews.  The
magazine is generously illustrated with photographs, paintings and maps.
Any and all topics in Canadian military history will be covered starting
with the earliest times and continuing right up to the present.  Due to
interest and availability of material, a large portion of the journal will
be devoted to Second World War topics.  For example, our Autumn 1993 issue
contains a special section devoted to the Italian Campaign, 1943-1945
while the Spring 1994 issue will commemorate the 50th anniversary of
Operation Overlord with a special section on the Normandy Campaign.

An example of the some of the topics covered to date are:

The Battle of Vimy Ridge (April 1917) and the Vimy Memorial
Operation "Spring" (Canadian attack on Verrieres Ridge, July 1944)
The Experiences of a Canadian Soldier in the Great War
Canadian and British Destroyer action in the English Channel, 10 June 44
Military Intervention at Oka, Quebec, (Summer 1990)
British Espionage in Quebec, Winter 1759-60
Ortona, Italy, December 1943
The Battle of Amiens, August 1918
Churchill and the Historians
Hong Kong, Dec 41 - Jan 42

And much more . . .


If anyone would like more information (ie on subscriptions or becoming
a contributer) please email me at the address below,


Mike Bechthold
Wilfrid Laurier University
Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
BECH8607@mach1.wlu.ca

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 21:45:39 -0400
From:    Bob Smart <bsmart@SMART.COM>
Subject: Re: More on photos

> This discussion of photos prompts me to put a question to the list
> on propriety.
>
> When my aunt passed away, we were going thru boxes of stuff she had
> gotten at various antique sales and flea markets.  In the bottom of
> one box we found a photo album.
>
> We were going to toss it out but closer examination shows it to be
> what looks like a collection of photos recounting a Japanese soldier's
> career in the military in WWII.  The album starts with pictures of the
> family, and then what appears to be basic training exercises.  Then
> there are photos of the Manchurian campaign, and near the end, some
> photos of Hirohito and Tojo, close up.  All the captions are in Japanese,
> hand lettered.  The photos are in rather good shape.
>
> Curently the album is being liiked over by someone fluent in Japanese
> to get explicit translations of the captions, but they told me that
> this appears to be a personal documentary.
>
> If this is the property of a Japanese soldier, I am hoping to track
> down the owner, or his family, and return it to them.  I would imagine
> it has some real sentimental value in this regard.
>
> What would be a good lead on an initial contact in Japan to find the
> family of this soldier?  Any ideas?
>
> Bill
> N93774@vms.cis.pitt.edu

You might start with the Military Attache at the Japanese Embassy in
Washington.  If you have a name they may be able to trace it down or put you in
contact with a veterans organization who could.  If it is impossible to trace
down the Individual you may want to consider donating it to a Museum either in
the States or in Japan.  Good Luck and let us know what happens.

Bob Smart (bsmart@smart.com)

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 3 Oct 1993 to 4 Oct 1993
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 22 messages totalling 801 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. WW2 Urban Legends/Folklore (12)
  2. USAAF 5 OCT 43
  3. ADMIN: Patience, please.
  4. Lady Be Good... was WW2 Legends/Folklore
  5. Addr: James Jones
  6. Experimental Power Plant
  7. GEN: Frank Wisner and OSS
  8. GEN: Off to Midland, TX.
  9. REPORT:  Gen. Doolittle's Funeral
 10. Doolittle Raid
 11. REF: Volume 14 of the series _Militaerfahrzeuge_

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 23:33:04 EST
From:    Denis <OUELLETT@UCS.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: WW2 Urban Legends/Folklore

Coffee in the thermoses that was still hot and drinkable

Maybe someone should find out what brand of thermos it was and tell the
company - it might make a better ad campagn then the Timex "keeps a licking
and on ticking".

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Oct 1993 07:25:00 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 5 OCT 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
TUESDAY, 5 OCTOBER 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-51, North American Mustang
  Zeke, Mitsubishi A6M, Navy Type 0 Carrier Fighter

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CARIBBEAN (Sixth Air Force: HQ 25th Bombardment Group (Medium) transfers
from Ft. Amsterdam, Curacao to Borinquen Field, Puerto Rico.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, a few B-25's and P-40's attack a
foundry at Shihhweiyao; damaging hits are scored on a barrack, on AA
positions, blast furnaces, hoppers, and a steam plant. 10 USAAF fighters
intercept a force of about 50 Zekes W of Kweilin, shoot down 1 enemy
fighter; the enemy force turns back.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): HQ 356th Fighter Group
transfers from Goxhill to Martlesham, England.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): Lieutenant General
James H Doolittle assumes command of the Twelfth Air Force during the
absence of General Carl Spaatz. In Italy, XII Bomber Command B-17's hit the
Bologna marshalling yard; B-25's and B-26's bomb the Formia road, a road
loop N of Mignano, and Isernia chokepoint; Northwest African Tactical
Bomber Force (NATBF), XII Air Support Command, and Royal Air Force (RAF)
Desert Air Force (DAF) aircraft bomb numerous targets in and N of the battle
area, including heavy traffic in the Isernia area, gasoline dumps at
Alfedena, trains at Termoli, and towns of Venafro and Isolella.
  The 15th Troop Carrier Squadron, 61st Troop Carrier Group, transfers from
Licata to Sciacca, Sicily with C-47's.
  The 27th and 71st Fighter Squadrons, 1st Fighter Group, based at Mateur,
Tunisia send detachments to Gambut, Libya with P-38's.
  The 85th and 86th Fighter Squadrons, 79th Fighter Group, transfer from
Crotone to Salsola, Italy with P-40's.
  The 111th Reconnaissance Squadron (Fighter), 68th Reconnaissance Group,
transfers from Sele to Pomigliano, Italy with P-51's. A detachment of the
squadron is operating from Capaccio, Italy.
  The 526th Fighter-Bomber Squadron, 86th Fighter-Bomber Group, transfers
from Sele Airfield to Seretella Airfield, Italy with A-36's.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea,
B-25's carry out a coastal sweep W to Madang, bombing and strafing villages
and barges; B-17's hit the Bogadjim Road and jetties at Erima; and B-24's
bomb the Babo area.
  HQ 35th Fighter Group transfers from Tsili Tsili to Nadzab, New Guinea.
  The 33d Troop Carrier Squadron, 374th Troop Carrier Group, transfers from
Port Moresby, New Guinea to Garbutt Field, Townsville, Queensland Australia
with C-47's.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
 Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Oct 1993 06:56:09 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: Patience, please.

Dear Larry,

Sorry to hear about your illness. We all wish you the speediest of
recoveries.


Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Oct 1993 08:04:00 EST
From:    "W. C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <ERCOUPE@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: WW2 Urban Legends/Folklore

>Coffee in the thermoses that was still hot and drinkable

>Maybe someone should find out what brand of thermos it was and tell the
>company - it might make a better ad campagn then the Timex "keeps a licking
>and on ticking".


Well, when you consider that this was in the middle of the Libyan desert,
it isn't so remarkable at all.  There should be no problem keeping coffee
'hot'.

Bill

N93774@vms.cis.pitt.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Oct 1993 07:22:55 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: WW2 Urban Legends/Folklore

Rusty,

Touche. (tooshay)!

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Oct 1993 08:15:37 EST
From:    Mike Long <MLONG@UCONNVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: WW2 Urban Legends/Folklore

On Tue, 5 Oct 1993 01:32:59 +0100 Emmanuel Gustin said:
>> They found coffee in thermoses that was still hot and drinkable and
>                                          _________
>
>
>> and it led the team right to them - just 20 years too late.  The main
>
>
>Slightly exaggerated?
>
>Emmanuel.

Still hot yes, but this WAS in the desert! I imagine everything was kinda HOT.

Mike Long
MLONG@UCONNVM

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Oct 1993 09:05:15 -0400
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: Lady Be Good... was WW2 Legends/Folklore

Additional stories about the B-24 "Lady Be Good"....

The Lady's bad luck persisted.  A C-47 carried investigators to
the crash site, landing nearby.  When the Gooney bird developed
radio problems, the radio was removed from the B-24 and installed
on the C-47.  The C-47 later crashed.

An armrest from the pilot's seat of the "Lady Be Good" was installed
on another aircraft (a deHavilland Beaver?) sent to the crash site.
That aircraft later crashed into the sea.  One of the pieces of
debris recovered floating on the surface...the armrest.

Pieces from the "Lady Be Good" were returned to the US for study.
One of the engines was discovered to have a 20 mm cannon shell
imbedded in it.  The engine and other pieces are now on display
at the museum at Wright Patterson AFB, Ohio.


On another (sorry Larry, not WWII) subject...

There is a similar "ghost story" about the loss of the space shuttle
"Challenger".  A portion of a wing rib from an Australian aviation
pioneer's wrecked aircraft was presented to one of the "Challenger"'s
crew, who agreed to carry it into space and then return it.  I'm sorry
to say I cannot recall the name/circumstances of either the Australian
or which shuttle crewmember.  When the shuttle exploded, the wing rib
was recovered floating on the water.



Dennis E. Sparks
SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Oct 1993 14:19:12 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVS1.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: WW2 Urban Legends/Folklore

> Well, when you consider that this was in the middle of the Libyan desert,
> it isn't so remarkable at all.  There should be no problem keeping coffee
> 'hot'.

A well-isolated thermos bottle should have a much slower time evolution
than the outside air, i.e. the temperature at the inside of the bottle
should be a time-average of the outside temperature. And deserts
tend to be very cold at night... :-)

Emmanuel

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Oct 1993 08:51:16 -0500
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: WW2 Urban Legends/Folklore

In your message of  4 Oct 1993 at 2111 CDT, you write:
> > They found coffee in thermoses that was still hot and drinkable and
>                                           _________
>
> > and it led the team right to them - just 20 years too late.  The main
>
>
> Slightly exaggerated?
>
> Emmanuel.

As I said in last Friday's card game - "Read em and weep".  Read _Lady
Be Good_ and see for yourself.  Comes under the heading of fact being
stranger than fiction.  Truly an amazing story of bad luck and
determination.

The crew also recorded in their survival diary having run across an
Arab and 4 or 5 camels that they suspect had died about 150 years
prior to their coming across them.  It didn't give them a warm fuzzy
feeling if you know what I mean....

I can't recommend the book highly enough.    ciao, Bill Huber

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Oct 1993 09:51:23 EDT
From:    "William B. Thacker" <wbt@CBEMF.ATT.COM>
Subject: Re: WW2 Urban Legends/Folklore

> On Tue, 5 Oct 1993 01:32:59 +0100 Emmanuel Gustin said:
> >> They found coffee in thermoses that was still hot and drinkable
> >
> >Slightly exaggerated?
>
> Still hot yes, but this WAS in the desert! I imagine everything was kinda HOT.

>From what I've heard about Army coffee, the amazing part is that it was
*drinkable*.  8-)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
(614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              wbt@cbemf.att.com
                      Humpty Dumpty was pushed!

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Oct 1993 09:56:27 -0500
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: WW2 Urban Legends/Folklore

In your message of  5 Oct 1993 at 0911 CDT, you write:

> A well-isolated thermos bottle should have a much slower time evolution
> than the outside air, i.e. the temperature at the inside of the bottle
> should be a time-average of the outside temperature. And deserts
> tend to be very cold at night... :-)
>
> Emmanuel

Musta been a heck of a thermos!  Just repeating what the book said.
I was not there so I have to rely on the word of the investigative
team but thats what they said.

If the seal was tight enough to maintain a complete vaccuum then (in
theory) it will keep the coffee hot forever.

Yea, I had forgotten about the C-47 with the swapped radio and the
arm rest.  Good points.

Bill Huber
whuber@sadis01.kell.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Oct 1993 10:36:34 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: WW2 Urban Legends/Folklore

Dear Bill,

I wasn't aware that a book had been published on that B-24. Is it
still in print, and how can I order it?

Terry


Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Oct 1993 10:55:35 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: WW2 Urban Legends/Folklore

Date sent:      Sat, 25 Sep 1993 15:52:59 -0400
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
From:           Bob Smart <bsmart@SMART.COM>
Subject:        Re: WW2 Urban Legends/Folklore
Originally to:  rjg@umnstat.stat.umn.edu
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

> > What I was wondering - is there a good count of how many American
> > built planes produced during the war are still around - including
> > those flying and those just on display.  Where there any planes produced
> > in significant numbers of which not a single one survives today?
>
> There is a count, but it's hard to be 100% accurate.  There are, for
> example, 7 B-17's flying, but how many still exist total can vary,
> since not all were registered.  Also, do you count those noted as
> "lost" that may be recoverable?
>
> As far as non-existent aircraft, there are many, though some can be
> argued as to "not count" (I wouldn't :-).  Some small number examples
> were built of prototype aircraft (like the B-19), which were later
> scrapped.  That's not really a surprise, though.  The Brewster Buffalo
> doesn't exist anymore, sorta, unless you go to Finland or the bottom
> of Lake Michigan.
>
> The dangerously close to exinction list is much larger on Axis aircraft,
> though.  There are MANY Italian, German and Japanese aircraft which
> simply do not exist anymore (unless someone, someday, stumbles across
> a wreck that might be worthy of restoration...)

Are there any flyable SB2C Helldivers? This strikes me as a case where noone
would have thought about keeping one around. There were probably hundreds of
them in very good to excellent condition in 1945 but theNavy abandoned them
quickly after the war ( Unlike the TBF/TBM which became a very well used hack
or testbed) Same goes for the B-26 Marauder, They even stole the designator for
it and gave it to the A-26.

I read a few years ago that there were no flyable P-39s and only a couple P-63s
around.

Bob Smart (bsmart@smart.com)


Bob,

I might be able to add one thing to your statement. I have recently
read that there are 3 P-61 "Black Widow" aircraft still in existence,
with one on a static display in China. I will have to re-consult my
reference work on that, but I am certain of the example in China. I
will find out exactly where it is.

The P-61 was, to my mind, a very remarkable aircraft that has not had
its share of publicity nor honor. It is only recently, that I have
seen anything in print on it.

I did, however, have the top-scoring night-fighter ace of WWII visit
me last year who told me a lot about it.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Oct 1993 11:35:55 EDT
From:    RICHARD KING <RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Addr: James Jones

Anyone interested in this great writer and World War II chronicler
should consider attending the annual James Jones Society Conference,
or at least supporting this fledging society. It is in Robinson, Ill.,
Jones's home town, and is a blend of scholars and friends of Jones.
Since I live only 45 miles from Robinson, sure, I can attend. Maybe
some of you midwesterners would like to make a road trip of it.
I am giving you all the program and the application form, in case
you are interested.
PROGRAM - THE JAMES JONES SOCIETY ANNUAL MEETING
Nov. 6, 1993 - Lincoln Trail College, Robinson, Ill.
 8:00   Registration
 9:00   Welcome by J. Michael Lennon, President
 9:10   Business Meeting
 9:30   THE ICE CREAM HEADACHE AND OTHER STORIES
          Panel discussion: Kaylie Jones, Helen Howe,
                            George Hendrick
10:30   Break
10:45   DETOUR INTO DARKNESS: JAMES JONES AS MYSTERY NOVELIST
          David and Judith Everson
11:45   Lunch
 1:00   Memories of James Jones and The Colony
          Panel discussion: Don Sackrider, Jamie Jones,
          Jon Shirota and Jones's former English teacher
 2:00   Break
 2:15   Willie Morris reading from JAMES JONES: A FRIENDSHIP
 3:30   Presentation: James Jones First Novel Fellowship Award
                      Kaylie Jones and Don Sackrider
 4:00   Reception: Cafeteria
 7:00   Dinner: Quail Creek Country Club (price: $15)


THE JAMES JONES SOCIETY MEMBERSHIP/DONATION FORM

Name_________________________________________________

Address______________________________________________

____I wish to become a 1993 member of The James Jones Society
and have enclosed a check for $10.

Make checks payable to the LTC Foundation/James Jones Society
and mail to: Juanita Martin, Treasurer, Lincoln Trail College,
R.R. 3 Box 82A, Robinson, IL 62454. Contributions to The Society
are tax deductible. This form may be duplicated for additional
memberships or gifts.

Note that the main speaker is Willie Morris. If you want more
information about Morris, read THE NEW YORK TIMES BOOK REVIEW,
Sept. 5, 1993 (page 1), or ESQUIRE, Sept. 1993, page 52. Pretty
good publicity for a speaker who will be in a small southern
Illinois town on Nov. 6.

As far as I know, Jones was the only major writer who was present
when Pearl Harbor was attacked, and has described this in FROM
HERE TO ETERNITY and other works. If anyone wants more information,
or wants to discuss Jones or other WWII novelists, let me know.

I attended the conference last year and it was outstanding.
Definitely NOT just a bunch of professors reading papers for
hours on end. I hope to see some people from this list there
and talk. Spread this information to anyone you think might be
interested.
Thanks for you indulgences in this posting.
*******************************************************************
RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU
Richard L. King, Referencen Librarian, Vincennes (IN) University
"Old soldiers never die. They just write novels." --James Jones

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Oct 1993 12:28:12 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: WW2 Urban Legends/Folklore

> > On Tue, 5 Oct 1993 01:32:59 +0100 Emmanuel Gustin said:
> > >> They found coffee in thermoses that was still hot and drinkable
> > >
> > >Slightly exaggerated?
> >
> > Still hot yes, but this WAS in the desert! I imagine everything was kinda HOT.
>
> >From what I've heard about Army coffee, the amazing part is that it was
> *drinkable*.  8-)

Or EVER hot.  :-)

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Oct 1993 12:42:32 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: WW2 Urban Legends/Folklore

> Are there any flyable SB2C Helldivers? This strikes me as a case where noone

ONE.

> would have thought about keeping one around. There were probably hundreds of
> them in very good to excellent condition in 1945 but theNavy abandoned them
> quickly after the war ( Unlike the TBF/TBM which became a very well used hack
> or testbed) Same goes for the B-26 Marauder, They even stole the designator for
> it and gave it to the A-26.

The CAF an SB2C which is basically a million dollar rebuild.  I've seen
it and it's big, ugly, massive and beautiful.  :-)

> I read a few years ago that there were no flyable P-39s and only a couple P-63s
> around.

I believe there is at least one P-39 flying.  I haven't followed that
one too much.  I know of at least two P-63s with another on the way.

> Bob,
>
> I might be able to add one thing to your statement. I have recently
> read that there are 3 P-61 "Black Widow" aircraft still in existence,
> with one on a static display in China. I will have to re-consult my
> reference work on that, but I am certain of the example in China. I
> will find out exactly where it is.
>
> The P-61 was, to my mind, a very remarkable aircraft that has not had
> its share of publicity nor honor. It is only recently, that I have
> seen anything in print on it.
>
> I did, however, have the top-scoring night-fighter ace of WWII visit
> me last year who told me a lot about it.

This is an airplane that is very much in demand and very much
unavailable.  I know there is one in China, but I guess I wonder
about reports of others (Except for known permanent static displays).

If there really were a potentially flyable copy of this airplane
around, _someone_ would be working very hard on it.

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Oct 1993 14:09:02 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Experimental Power Plant

This may not have much to do with WWII, but I am curious about
something I saw several months ago.

I would like to find out about an experimental power plant that uses
a liquid metal that is heated and circulated in a closed system to
make electricity. I saw a TV program several months ago in which is
unit had been built and was in operation. I don't know the name of
the university, but it was in Israel. Any info on construction and
materials would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

Terry Moore

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Oct 1993 20:46:45 +0100
From:    Richard Cummings <CUMMINGSR@ADMINA.RFERL.ORG>
Subject: GEN: Frank Wisner and OSS

Anyone know where I can get information on Frank Wisner and OSS.
I have been researching the early days of our radio stations,
and Frank Wisner was a dominant figure in the early days of
both Radio Free Europe and Radio Liberty.  And I found
references to his assignment in Romania for OSS.

Has anyone ever written a biography of Frank Wisner?  Does anyone
know if his papers were ever deposited in a University Library
in the U.S.

Thanks to anyone for any information.  Richard in Munich where
information is hard to come by, sometimes.

--==oo00oo==--
cummingsr@rferl.org
RFE/RL Inc
Munich,Germany

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Oct 1993 14:37:20 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: GEN: Off to Midland, TX.

If anyone gets to Midland for Airsho, make sure you drop by Miss Mitchell
and introduce yourself... (and part with your spare cash -- :-)

You'll have the opportunity to meet most of the people who flew to DC, get
some personal stories first hand as well as meet some of the original
crew members of Miss Mitchell who saw combat 50 years ago -- Some have
been reunited in the past, but not all.  This is going to be enjoyable.

... Outta here ... For some hellacious fun.  :-)

[I told Headquarters we'd settle for French Champagne upon arrival -- Who
wants to take the bet that we see aircraft polishing rags instead? :-)]

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Oct 1993 16:46:24 EST
From:    Chuck McCormick <chuckm@AREC.UMD.EDU>
Subject: REPORT:  Gen. Doolittle's Funeral

Here is my report of what happened at last Friday's funeral.  I wish I were a
better writer because this report doesn't fully capture the emotion or beauty of
Friday's events.  Thanks again to the Minnesota Wing, the Miss Mitchell's crew,
and the corporate donor for the B-25 flyover.

    Doolittle's Burial

I was fortunate enough to be able to attend Gen. Jimmy
Doolittle's burial at Arlington National Cemetery on
Friday, October 1, 1993.  I attended the ceremony
because I have read a lot about him and admired him and
was saddened by his passing.  Here is a brief report of
what I observed Friday.

First, I need to point out that I was not able to be as
close to the services as I would have liked.  The
funeral was held in the Ft. Meyer Chapel and closed to
the public.  The burial service was open to the public
according to information given to me by the National
Cemetery before hand.  Because of the large number of
dignitaries present, including the Secretary of Defense
and the Secretary of State, and the large number of
tourists in the area the road and walkways near the
burial site were closed to the public.  I was
approximately 100 yards from the grave but could still
see and hear much of what went on.

The Location

Gen. Doolittle is buried just below the Tomb of the
Unknowns near the graves of Joe Louis, Dick Scobee, and
(I think) Pappy Boyington.  It is in the area of the
cemetery which is most visited.  To get to the grave
one simply has to walk up hill on Roosevelt Avenue from
the Visitor's Center.  Watch for the row of pine trees
on the right.  The weather Friday was a perfect Fall
day.  The temperature was about 60 degrees and the sky
was as blue as it ever gets in Washington and nearly
cloudless.  I couldn't help feeling that one couldn't
pick a more beautiful day to be buried.

I watched the burial from near the wall that is north
east of the Honor Guard's walk at the Tomb of the
Unknowns.  I was at the cemetery very early and had
already staked out a position and waited for the
funeral party.

The On-Lookers

As noted above, the general public was kept some
distance from the grave site.  There were two good
reasons for this.  Many dignitaries attended the
ceremony including Les Aspin and Warren Christopher.
It was rumored that President Bush also attended; I did
not see him but I did see a black Lincoln with tinted
windows leave--that may have been his car.  I did see
both of the Secretaries.  The second reason for
excluding the general public was that there were a lot
of tourists there who weren't particular quiet or aware
of the importance of the man being buried and the
tourists were pretty loud and obnoxious as tourists are
wont to be (if you want specific examples of poor
tourist behavior email me).  Many of the tourists and
others who went as on-lookers weren't dressed properly
to attend a funeral either.  There were also some
squabbles between individuals who wanted to get closer
and the 'Air Security Police'.  Guess who won?

Some of the on-lookers had come from far away to be in
attendance.  There were also many veterans in the crowd
including men in VFW hats and jackets and many of them
sported medals.  One man in the crowd had flown in
B-25s during WWII.

The Burial Service

At about 3PM the funeral party arrived at the burial
site led by a large Air Force Honor Guard and the Air
Force Band.  The Air Force Band alternated playing
martial music and drumbeats.  One tune I specifically
heard was 'Anchors Away'.  General Doolittle's caisson
was drawn by six horses and at least some of the horses
had riders.  I did not know that this was standard
practice.

After a brief service the Honor Guard fired a 21 gun
salute.  I have never witnessed such a salute and it
was magnificent.

The Flyover

At exactly 3:30 PM the flyover began.  The first planes
to fly over were a flight of four F-16s flying the
missing man maneuver.  They were followed by four F-15s
and a C-141 transport.  Then the B-1 bomber flew over.
While the other planes were very loud, the B-1 was
earth shaking.  Then Miss Mitchell appeared.  Because
the plane is propeller-driven it took longer to over
fly the site.  It was also remarkable how small the
B-25 looked compared to the B-1.  Fifty years of
technological advances were sharply contrasted.  As
Miss Mitchell passed immediately over the grave site it
dipped its wings in an aeronautical salute to General
Doolittle.  As press accounts have reported, the
flyover by the B-25 was the most powerful emotionally
for the spectators.  I saw two veterans with tears in
their eyes.

Other Comments

Other than the changing of the Guard at the Tomb of the
Unknowns I haven't ever been to a military ceremony
before.  There were several things that I noticed about
this ceremony.  The most startling thing was the
relaxed and amiable atmosphere between the officers and
enlisted persons.  Someone else remarked that their
sense of the day was happy instead of somber and I got
this same sense.  Perhaps this mood existed because the
man that was laid to rest that day had lived such a
fantastic life; he had survived several plane crashes,
flown on what could have been a suicide mission and
then lived another 51 years to be a very, very old man.

I was disappointed by how few of the tourists knew
about General Doolittle but was heartened by the number
of people who came from far away to be there.  The
ceremony and flyover were spectacular; the military
really knows how to honor their soldiers and Gen.
Doolittle was one of their greatest.

I was able to take two pictures of Miss Mitchell during
the flyover.  I will try to make them electronically
available after they are developed.

Chuck McCormick
chuckm@arec.umd.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Oct 1993 19:58:00 LCL
From:    Jeff Olson <jeff.olson@TFD.COPLEX.COM>
Subject: Doolittle Raid

We sometimes think that the raid on Tokyo by General Doolittle merely
'irritated' Japan and bolstered the U.S. morale when, according to
Griffith's _The Battle for Guadalcanal_, that raid so embarrassed the
Japanese Navy and especially Yamamoto, that it resulted in the decision
to occupy Midway Island.  Prior to that raid, there was little
likelihood that the naval general staff would have approved the
occupation.  So...How do you suppose the worm would have turned
without the raid and subsequest decision to occupy Midway?

Jeff
---
. 1st 1.11 #1611 . jeff.olson@tfd.coplex.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Oct 1993 23:31:39 -0400
From:    Akira Takiguchi <akira@ATSON.ASAHI-NP.CO.JP>
Subject: Re: REF: Volume 14 of the series _Militaerfahrzeuge_

>So, Akira, what's the resolution to that Panzer VI tank destroyer
>that debutted at Kursk?  Is it a Ferdinand or an Elefant?  Thanks.

I've been unsuccessful to get D656/1 so far (Mililaergeschichtliches
Forschungsamt didn't have a copy);  I will certainly post the result
if I get one, but if Mr. Spielberger could enlighten us, that would
be better...
--
      Akira Takiguchi  VP, ATSON, Inc.  (a subsidiary of the Asahi Shimbun)
             CANAL TOWER  9-3 Nihonbashi-Koamicho Chuo-ku Tokyo 103  Japan
   +81 3 3666 2881(voice) 2882(fax)  EMAIL TO <akira@atson.asahi-np.co.jp>

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 4 Oct 1993 to 5 Oct 1993
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 24 messages totalling 912 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Doolittle Raid (8)
  2. Veterans
  3. USAAF 6 OCT 43
  4. Experimental Power Plant
  5. GEN: Frank Wisner and OSS
  6. REF: "Carpetbaggers"
  7. Mother of All Battles - Kursk (3)
  8. Help reaching a list member
  9. WW2 Urban Legends/Folklore
 10. <No subject given>
 11. Source: Help! Need 1st volume 5th Army history
 12. Doolittle Raid -- missed Coral Sea opportunity?
 13. Rats!
 14. Nimitz's hopes for a big battle in the South Pacific
 15. WW2 Urban Legends/Folklore #

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Oct 1993 23:18:42 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Doolittle Raid

> We sometimes think that the raid on Tokyo by General Doolittle merely
> 'irritated' Japan and bolstered the U.S. morale when, according to
> Griffith's _The Battle for Guadalcanal_, that raid so embarrassed the
> Japanese Navy and especially Yamamoto, that it resulted in the decision
> to occupy Midway Island.  Prior to that raid, there was little
> likelihood that the naval general staff would have approved the
> occupation.  So...How do you suppose the worm would have turned
> without the raid and subsequest decision to occupy Midway?

Midway was ALWAYS a prime target -- What Yamamoto did was convince
the General Staff that the risks at that time were worth the potential
gain.

The overall big picture was simple:  Eliminate the U.S. Pacific Fleet
at Pearl Harbor, significantly weakening the U.S. threat.  Following
that action, the taking of Midway would provide the Japanese fleet and
air force a forward base for operations throughout the Pacific.  By
holding on to this strategic location, the Japanese Fleet could plan
for a full-scale attack and invasion of the Japanese islands, placing
the entire western United States in jeapardy.

The intent was not necessarily to invade and conquer the U.S. -- that
would simply be too big a challenge at that time.  But, by corralling
the U.S. fleet and military capability, the Japanese empire could
control the entire Pacific and negotiate a favorable peace with the
isolationist United States population.

This was also in the days when the Battleship was still believed to be
the key to war -- the aircraft carrier was seen by many as a major
waste of time and resources.

Many failed gambles later, the exact opposite is what happened.

The main result of the Doolittle Raid was not embarassment of the
Japanese General Staff making them more prone to rash action -- in fact,
they became much more conservative.  The action forced them to pull
many of their units back to the home islands to defend her shores.  This
reduced the overall strength of the Japanese military capability in the
Pacific which benefitted the Allied war effort at a time when the Allied
strength in the Pacific was dangerously weak and getting worse.

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Oct 1993 10:15:56 +0200
From:    Chris Scogings <cscoging@UNPCS1.CS.UNP.AC.ZA>
Subject: Veterans

Thanks to William Huber for his message which included:

>It makes me sick the way Viet-Nam Vets got treated and I make it plain
>that anybody valuing their current dentition should keep to themselves
>any disparaging remarks about men (and women) who put it all on the line.

I sympathise with the Vietnam vets as I was part of the South African army
which invaded Angola in 1976.  We were all conscripted, we were 18 years
old, and at the time it was a big adventure.  I'm now told we were part of
the colonial and racist exploitation of Africa - I think that's how a
visiting (white) American put it.

Several of my friend are still there in unmarked graves - no memorials,
naturally.  Two had both legs blown off by mines, one had severe burns from
bailing out of an armoured car which had been hit by a T34.  Some of them
have joined the white extremist movement in South Africa.

Well, back to WWII.  My uncle was at Monte Casino with the 6th SA Div.  He
passed away 4 years ago, so won't be attending a reunion.  His two main
memories of the battle are (1) living for 2 weeks about 10 yards from a
rotting mule carcass (they couldn't move it due to the terrain and constant
shelling) and (2) being heavily bombed by both the Luftwaffe and the USAAF!

Chris
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Scogings                      Voice: (27) 331 955645
Computer Science Dept                 Fax: (27) 331 955599
University of Natal
Pietermaritzburg                   E-Mail:cscoging@unpcs1.cs.unp.ac.za
----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Oct 1993 07:30:14 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 6 OCT 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
WEDNESDAY, 6 OCTOBER 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  F4U, Vought Corsair (USN)
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  Zeke, Mitsubishi A6M, Navy Type 0 Carrier Fighter

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 7 P-40's from Suichwan intercept
an attacking force of 27 bombers and 21 Zekes; 1 bomber and 1 fighter are
shot down, and the attackers retire in the direction of Canton without
dropping their bombs.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, XII
Bomber Command B-17's bomb the Mestre marshalling yard while B-26's hit a
highway chokepoint at Isernia, the highway at Mignano, and road junction at
Formia; P-38's strafe Araxos Airfield in Greece; Northwest African Tactical
Bomber Force (NATBF) planes on road-blocking missions hit targets at Teano,
at Alfedena, between Cassino and Capua, and near Sessa Aurunca; XII Air
Support Command P-40's and A-36's attack roads and vehicles N of the US
Fifth Army battle zone and patrol the Naples area. The US Fifth Army reaches
the S bank of the Volturno River; Capua falls to British units.
  HQ 61st Troop Carrier Group and it's 14th Troop Carrier Squadron transfer
from Licata to Sciacca, Sicily with C-47's.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, 8 P-39's and 8 US Navy F4U's strafe barges off the W coast of
Choiseul Island. 24 B-25's and 14 P-38's carry out a low-level strike
against Kahili Airfield on Bougainville Island, damaging or destroying
several parked aircraft.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): In the Bismarck
Archipelago, B-25's sweep along coastal areas of New Britain Island and
through islands to the N and W, bombing and strafing targets of opportunity.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
 Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Oct 1993 04:32:10 -0700
From:    John Hightower <jhightwr@CRL.COM>
Subject: Re: Experimental Power Plant

Terry,
I think what you are asking about is magnetohydrodynamics. I can't give
you any specifics about the source you mentioned but maybe this will help.

John

On
Tue, 5 Oct 1993, Terry Moore wrote:

> This may not have much to do with WWII, but I am curious about
> something I saw several months ago.
>
> I would like to find out about an experimental power plant that uses
> a liquid metal that is heated and circulated in a closed system to
> make electricity. I saw a TV program several months ago in which is
> unit had been built and was in operation. I don't know the name of
> the university, but it was in Israel. Any info on construction and
> materials would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Terry Moore
>
> Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
> P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
> fax 806-371-5370



=============================================================
=John Hightower          | jhightwr@crl.com                 =
=Hightower & Associates  | (404) 370-1574 voice             =
=237 Derrydown Way       | (404) 370-1574 fax               =
=Decatur, GA  30030-3815 |                                  =
=============================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Oct 1993 06:49:22 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN: Frank Wisner and OSS

Dear Richard,

I will check on this for you. I have several books that deal with
various personalities of the OSS.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Oct 1993 06:50:57 -0500
From:    robert doyle <doyle@CHEM.NRL.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: REF: "Carpetbaggers"

Some time back there was a question about a book called "The
Carpetbaggers" by Ben Parnell. I've obtained a copy via
interlibrary loan. My local library, in Alexandria, VA, was able to
borrow it from the Kenton County (Kentucky) Library. It is hard to
find, although if your library has Infonet you should be able to
find two or three sources.

The book is subtitled "America's Secret War in Europe, a Story of
the World War II Carpetbaggers, 801st/492nd Bombardment Group (H),
U.S. Army, Eighth Air Force"; Eakin Press: Austin, Texas, 1987. The
author is a Texas banker who wrote the book as a tribute to his
brother who flew with the Carpetbaggers and did not survive the
war. It's the author's first book and as such is a little rough
around the edges. However, it is thoroughly researched, includes a
war log, a combat crew roster, many photographs, end notes, and a
bibliography.

Carpetbaggers was the code name for units of the Eighth Air Force
that supported OSS operations in Europe including insertion,
extraction, and resupply. They used specially modified B-24s. I'm
sure that those interested in aviation will find the author's
description of the aircraft fascinating. The book contains numerous
stories of successful operations as well as those that were far
less than successful. There is also considerable space devoted to
contacts with the Maquis - another subject about which there were
several questions a month or two ago.

I have to return the book tonight. But I have it with me today in
case anyone would like to e-mail me a question or two.

Bob
Robert J. Doyle, Jr.
Naval Research Laboratory
Washington, DC
doyle@chem.nrl.navy.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Oct 1993 08:49:30 -0500
From:    John Lundstrom <jl@CSD4.CSD.UWM.EDU>
Subject: Re: Doolittle Raid

Dear Robert,
        I feel that the principal result of the Doolittle Raid for the U.S.
was to deny the Pacific Fleet two of its four carriers at a time when it
could have inflicting a crushing defeat on the Japanese in the Battle of
the Coral Sea. By mid April 1942 Adm. Nimitz had learned through radio
intelligence that the Japanese were committing powerful forces in the
Southwest Pacific, but he could deploy only Yorktown and Lexington to the
area. VAdm. Halsey with Enterprise and Hornet cleared Pearl and headed
south as fast as they could, but they were too late to fight at Coral Sea.


John B. Lundstrom
Milwaukee Public Museum
jl@csd4.csd.uwm.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Oct 1993 15:48:55 +0100
From:    Richard Kirby <rbk@ICBL.HERIOT-WATT.AC.UK>
Subject: Mother of All Battles - Kursk

Notes taken about the Timewatch program,
         Mother of All Battles - Kursk July/August 1943
shown on BBC2, Wednesday, 29/9/93

[Comments in square brackets like this are mine - this document is a
mixture of facts, and anecdotes, so may have a little of something for
everyone]

First off, I misread the emphasis in the program listing. I thought it
was going to claim that Kursk wasn't as big as history claims.
Actually, they were coming from the angle of being little known in the
West, but it was actually the biggest in the War:

- More troops than the D-Day landings,
- More aircraft than fought in the Battle Of Britain,
- 3 times as many tanks as at Al Elamein,
- The battle area was as large as Wales,
- Lasted 7 weeks.

Up until Perestroika the exact numbers of casualities were kept quiet
by the communists since they were far higher than could safely be
admitted, but now some secret Read Army documents recently released
give the figures as:
254, 470 Russians killed
608, 833 Russians wounded

and from German sources, we have ~100000 Germans killed.

The combined death total is comparable to the total British frontline
losses of the whole war!

[The lead up to the battle]

At Stalingrad the German Army suffered their first major defeat -
91000 6th Army soldiers taken prisoner, with < 10% seeing Germany
again. But the Germans soon rallied and attacked again under von
Mansteins leadership, decimating three soviet armies, and recapturing
Kharkov (the 4th largest city).

Von Manstein's ADC during '42-'44 is still alive, and was interviewed.
He said that Hitler had made a mistake in forcing von Manstein to stop
this succesful offensive, his second major mistake since letting the
BEF off the hook at Dunkirk. He claimed Hitler was obsessed with
numbers, production figures, and new technology. He thought in
quantities, and wanted to wait for new tanks and then have a gigantic
tank battle to eliminate the salient at Kursk, and cutting the main
rail link between the North and the South.

During the Summer of '43, the Germans transported 500,000 (half a
million) wagon loads of men and materials to the Kursk salient - a
remarkable logistical feat. Unfortuantely the radio traffic required
for this gave the game away to the Russians, via the Ultra project at
Betchley Park, Britain.

The plans for Operation Citadel (as the German offensive was called),
was decoded by us [us being the British, since this is a British
program, although they probably meant the Western Allies, and not
Russia]. By the 13th April we knew the name, and by the 19th we knew
that at least an attack on the northern part of the salient was
intended, but we didn't pass this on to the Russians straight away.
First our top generals sat on the information deciding what it meant,
and they finally sent a summary to the Russians with no indication of
where the information had come from.

Now, Stalin did not trust our data, without corroboration. A NKVD
officer interviewed, said that the info from Britain was always late,
and never the raw data, just a summary. Very often it was not easy to
check or believe the intelligence.

Stalin relied on Ken Cross who worked at Betchley Park, to feed more
data to the Russians. By mid April they had worked out the Germans
plan of attack (using a grand Pincer movement). Also Stalin had a fair
idea of the scale and the location of the forces arrayed against them.

By late June the German force had built to 900,000 troops, 2600 tanks,
and 1500 aircraft.

The Russian generals persuaded Stalin to set up a defence rather than
his preferred method of attacking first. They set about constructing a
single track rail line 60 miles long in 30 days to help bring men and
supplies into the defence around Kursk.

300,000 local people helped dig 8 lines of trenches, dugouts and tank
traps measuring 3500 miles in total. 500,000 mines were laid, some
still there. Young girls and women helped making the defences, and
then refused to evacuate, often hiding in their houses, with soldiers
telling the officers that they have moved off.

By early Summer, well over a million Russian troops were in defence,
including several thousand women fighting in all arms. There was even
an all female fighter squadron! Not only the pilots, but the mechanics
were women. They interviewed a Tamara Pamyatnikh, who was a pilot in
the 586th Fighter Squadron (the all-woman one). She said that the
hardest job was carrying the compressed air cylinders, which each
weighed 70 kilos. She also said that the women were better educated
than the men, having been through higher education - "Sometimes, we
even had to show the male engineers how to do things because they got
things wrong". Another amusing anecdote she had was that the women
were not allowed to shower in the open, but the authorities wouldn't
build them a shower, so one summer evening they staged a protest -
they undressed and showered in the middle of the street. They soon had
a shower built!

Next the program interviewed a woman tank driver - Ekatarina
Petluk. She said that they had no such luxuries. She was the only
woman in her battalion (part of the 3rd Tank Army). It was easy for
some of the men to distract her whilst the others went off to do their
business, but how could she slope off for five minutes to find a quiet
hedge. She talked about some of the hardships she faced, such as
soaking her shirt in petrol and cutting her hair short to ward off
lice. Her worst times were her monthly periods, there was never enough
cotton wool and bandages, and of course she was young and very shy -
"I had to keep my dignity and my feminity, surrounded by so many men".

[Next we saw some footage of quite a few (like over a dozen) King
Tigers (Henschel turrets). At least thats what they look like,
compared with all the pictures I have, but that doesn't make any sense
since King Tigers weren't around until '44! Does anyone have an image
(just about any format acceptable, since I have access to PCs, Macs,
and all X formats) of a Panther A, D, or G, and King Tigers, so I can
compare. Of course it is not unknown to show the wrong footage...]

Hitler believed that the fate of Nazi Germany would be decided at
Kursk. By June, he had committed most of the elite divisions of the
German Army. The commentator claimed that the Pz IVs were the state of
the art, and there were more than 2000 at Kursk - "the cannon was
lethally accurate at 1 mile". A german tank crewman (radio operator)
said that the Pz IV main advantage over the T34 was its motorised
turret. Also the front armour was very tough, but the flank armour
very thin, and on rough ground the tracks came off far more easily
than the T34s.

They had a PzIV (not sure which mark), and a T34 actually driving
about. Next they interviewed a Russian tank commander - Ivan Sagun
who was in the 2nd Tank Army, and he illustrated the main problem with
the T34 (that of poor communications) with his anecdote: "I directed
the driver by tapping him on the shoulder with my foot: on the right
shoulder meant Go Right, on the left shoulder meant Go Left. A prod in
the back meant Stop. That was the simple steering system we had. As
for the gunner, I'd signal to him through all the noise: thumb meant
armour-piercing shell, two fingers mean shrapnel shell. Those were out
signals, primitive but effective".

On July 1st, Hitler summoned von Manstein and the other Generals to a
rather theatrical meeting in Munich, where he stood with his generals
around him, looked at each man in turn in the eye, from left to right,
and then declared "Gentlemen, I hereby give the order that Operation
Citadel shall begin on 5th July. Almighty God, bless out weapons", and
that was the end of the meeting! He also sent a message to the troops
saying "This would be a victory to light up the World".

[The battle]

Just before dawn of the 5th July, the German artillary opened up. In
less than an hour they hurled more shells than they had used in
conquering both Poland and France.

Russian penal battalions were in the front line, with commisars ready
to shoot them if they tried to retreat. Made up of soldiers who had
failed on some mission, or who had shot themselves to get out of
fighting. To get out of a penal battalion, you either had to show
great courage, or be badly wounded, or killed.

A Russian sapper interviewed commented that the Russian mines were so
badly made that they were nearly as dangerous to them when being laid,
as to the Germans. They prefered to use German mines. They would crawl
into the German minefields and steal the mines.

The program claimed that the minefields stopped the Germans.

There was constant artillary and air attacks even if not actually
fighting at that moment.

A German tank man who was in the Waffen SS, said that his unit was
afraid of being captured due to the Russian treatment of prisoners
(which was understandable given what the Germans had done to Russian
civilians and prisoners) - no Geneva Convention here!

A group of Waffen SS have recently returned to the battleground - none
admit to witnessing war crimes. Claimed that they were fighting troops
always at the front, and didn't know what went on behind the lines,
and that the concentration camps were only rumours to them, and that
any atrocities committed by the SS was not done by the Waffen SS - "We
were soldiers, just simple soldiers".

Tamara (the woman tank driver above) said that all Russian soldiers
knew of the atrocities committed by the Germans, but she thought that
perhaps some were innocent, and that those who had committed
atrocities should thank god that they have got away with it.

Stalin ordered the removal of all traces of the German invasion from
Russian soil after the war, including any war graves which were dug
up. The Waffen SS group above were returning in the spirit on
conciliation to pay their respects to their comrades. Their wreath had
the legend "To our fallen comraders, and our courageous opponents".
They met up with some Russian vets who didn't seem to bear any
grudges.

[Some footage of a tank battle, but rather strange since it had
closeups of both Russian and German tanks - brave camara man!]

On 12th July, the Waffen SS tank divisions broke through to the south
of the salient at Prokhorovka and met the 5th Guards Tank Army. 800
Russian tanks vs 400 German tanks faced each other at dawn, and then
charged at each other, closing to point blank range and mixing
together. This one action saw the loss of 600 tanks destroyed in 18
hours. The air was thick with smoke - tank crews were poisoned from
the shell fumes from constant firing. One Russian Tank commander
described how the 65 tanks of the 170th Tank Brigade closed with the
Germans and destroyed about 60 tanks before being themselves
completely destroyed in 10 minutes of fighting.

Finally the Germans withdraw their decimated tank divisions back to
Italy to face the Allied invasion there.

[It was here that the tape ran out, although only about a minute or
two short - hope you enjoyed reading it].

Richard.

ANY MISTAKES ARE OF COURSE MINE.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Oct 1993 17:22:33 +0200
From:    Chris Scogings <cscoging@UNPCS1.CS.UNP.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: Doolittle Raid

John Lundstrom writes:

>        I feel that the principal result of the Doolittle Raid for the U.S.
>was to deny the Pacific Fleet two of its four carriers at a time when it
>could have inflicting a crushing defeat on the Japanese in the Battle of
>the Coral Sea.

I agree.  If you look at an overall disposition of forces, the strategic
effects of the raid were zero (apart from giving the US newspapers something
good to write about).

Chris
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Scogings                      Voice: (27) 331 955645
Computer Science Dept                 Fax: (27) 331 955599
University of Natal
Pietermaritzburg                   E-Mail:cscoging@unpcs1.cs.unp.ac.za
----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Oct 1993 11:15:54 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Doolittle Raid

Date sent:      Wed, 6 Oct 1993 08:49:30 -0500
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
From:           John Lundstrom <jl@CSD4.CSD.UWM.EDU>
Subject:        Re: Doolittle Raid
Originally to:  rjg@umnstat.stat.umn.edu
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

Dear Robert,
        I feel that the principal result of the Doolittle Raid for the U.S.
was to deny the Pacific Fleet two of its four carriers at a time when it
could have inflicting a crushing defeat on the Japanese in the Battle of
the Coral Sea. By mid April 1942 Adm. Nimitz had learned through radio
intelligence that the Japanese were committing powerful forces in the
Southwest Pacific, but he could deploy only Yorktown and Lexington to the
area. VAdm. Halsey with Enterprise and Hornet cleared Pearl and headed
south as fast as they could, but they were too late to fight at Coral Sea.


John B. Lundstrom
Milwaukee Public Museum
jl@csd4.csd.uwm.edu


Dear John,

I will have to research this, but the Doolittle raid was represented
the second time Japan had been assaulted from the air. You are
correct in what you say, but the Doolittle raid simply cemented the
Japanese attitude to retain substantial forces to defend the homeland.

The other attack I am referring to occurred some months before, when
a small bomber force was sent to bomb a large Japanese naval base on
Hokkaido having taken off from Alaska. I will have to consult my
reference on that, but the Japanese were attacked before Doolittle's
raid. His was the first to assault the homeland proper.

Will get back to you to confirm.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Oct 1993 11:13:51 CST
From:    "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer,
         Tim A." <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Help reaching a list member

I am trying to contact our member in Bloomington, IN.  I believe that is
Sidney Kitchel.  Please contact me direct--thanks.  Tim

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Oct 1993 17:40:06 +0100
From:    Richard Cummings <CUMMINGSR@ADMINA.RFERL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Mother of All Battles - Kursk

Great reading Richard...I wish I could have seen the program.  Thanks
for posting the details.  Regards from Munich.  Richard.

--==oo00oo==--
cummingsr@rferl.org
RFE/RL Inc
Munich,Germany

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Oct 1993 11:58:45 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mother of All Battles - Kursk

Richard,

That is excellent!! If you hear of any export of that segment to the
US, please let us all know. I know that there have been many
interesting items produced there that have not made it to here, most
notably, a series dealing exclusively with the secret war that
existed between the Allies and the Axis.

Thank you very much for the detail, and I, personally will keep an
eye for it.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Oct 1993 13:20:03 -0400
From:    "Mr. Scott Hannon" <hannon@UMBC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Doolittle Raid

>John Lundstrom writes:
>>        I feel that the principal result of the Doolittle Raid for the U.S.
>>was to deny the Pacific Fleet two of its four carriers at a time when it
>>could have inflicting a crushing defeat on the Japanese in the Battle of
>>the Coral Sea.

Chris Scogins writes:
>I agree.  If you look at an overall disposition of forces, the strategic
>effects of the raid were zero (apart from giving the US newspapers something
>good to write about).

Hmmm. I think this down-plays the effects on morale. Battles that lead to
almost no change in the overall military situation may still have a large
effect upon US support for a war. For proof, take a look at what happened
in Somalia within the last few days, and the repercussions in the USA.

As the US learned (?) in Vietnam, wars are not necessarily won by winning
the battles; resolve has a lot to do with it too. The Doolittle B-25 raid
did insignificant damage to the Japanese military/economy, but had a large
impact on US/Allied morale (and perhaps Japanese as well). The US had a
another bunch of heros at a time when we we not winning many battles.
Japan had been bombed...it wasn't invunerable. Americans were proud of the
acheivement. In short, it was a big boost in US morale, and that in
itself is important.

Scott.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Oct 1993 13:46:33 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <kc5318@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Doolittle Raid

>John Lundstrom writes:
>
>>        I feel that the principal result of the Doolittle Raid for the U.S.
>>was to deny the Pacific Fleet two of its four carriers at a time when it
>>could have inflicting a crushing defeat on the Japanese in the Battle of
>>the Coral Sea.
>
>I agree.  If you look at an overall disposition of forces, the strategic
>effects of the raid were zero (apart from giving the US newspapers something
>good to write about).
>
>Chris
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Chris Scogings                      Voice: (27) 331 955645
>Computer Science Dept                 Fax: (27) 331 955599
>University of Natal
>Pietermaritzburg                   E-Mail:cscoging@unpcs1.cs.unp.ac.za
>----------------------------------------------------------------------


     Those of you taking this line of argument are ignoring the facts and being
very presentist.  I suggest you look at Ron Spector's EAGLE AGAINST THE SUN,
page 155.  There were three key effects of the raid.  It was a tremendous
psychological boost for the American public at a time when all news was bleak.
It was a tremendous psychological blow to the Japanese that embarrassed the
military and eliminated any resistance(which had been strong) to the Midway
operation.  Concerning the Coral Sea Battle, the reaction to the Doolittle raid
forced Admiral Inoue to move his timetable to take Port Moresby up to May,
he was limited to only two large carriers instead of six, and his hasty
preparations left him exposed to American air attacks.  So while the Doolittle
raid might have taken two carriers from US forces available for Coral Sea, it
really denied the Japanese four, which had to undergo accelerated training for
a now top priority Midway operation.  Despite what problems the raid caused the
Japanese, it was probably worth the risk just for what it did for our own
morale.

                                        LTC Con Crane
                                        USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Oct 1993 15:30:50 EDT
From:    Allan Janus <NASARC07@SIVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: WW2 Urban Legends/Folklore

I'm reminded of an anecdote of the Duke of Wellington - he was boring his
friends at dinner one night with a story of something that deeply impressed
him during the Peninsular campaign; a Spaniard who displayed live rats living
in bottles.  A toad at the table tried to ruin the story by saying "I suppose,
your Grace, that they were rather small rats in rather big bottles."
Wellington, enraged, replied "No, sir!  Damn big rats, and damn small
bottles!"

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Oct 1993 15:25:00 EST
From:    "W. C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <ERCOUPE@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: <No subject given>

>I agree.  If you look at an overall disposition of forces, the strategic
>effects of the raid were zero (apart from giving the US newspapers something
>good to write about).


Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) STRATEGIC results are not the
only ones of value.  If the 'impenetrability' of the homeland was
shown to be a myth early on in the war, the disposition of forces
subsequently would be affected.  Who can say what would have happened
had the Imperial forces not had to keep a large reserve of aircraft on
the Home Islands to meet a threat that existed in their imagination?

Remember that the raid was publicized early on, but the METHODOLOGY
remained a secret.  Few people knew of a carrier-based launch.

Therefore, strategically it was not much...but the overall effects
seem to have justified the action.

Bill
N93774@vms.cis.pitt.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Oct 1993 16:04:28 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Doolittle Raid

Con,

I agree completely.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Oct 1993 16:39:49 -0500
From:    John Lundstrom <jl@CSD4.CSD.UWM.EDU>
Subject: Re: Doolittle Raid

Regarding Col. Crane's comments on the effect of the Doolittle Raid on Japanese
strategy, please see my book The First South Pacific Campaign: Pacific Fleet
Strategy Dec. 41-June 42 (Annapolis, 1976). I believe Japanese sources show:
        1) the Naval General Staff caved into Yamamoto's pressure and agreed
on the Midway offensive on 5 April 1942 (formal directive issued on 5 May 1942)
Thus the Doolittle Raid only added to the urgency to attack Midway, but didn't
create it
        2) Inoue (C-in-C 4th Fleet) wanted to attack Port Moresby & Tulagi in
late May with 2 carriers. On 5 April he was given only Kaga & Shoho; on 12
April Shokaku & Zuikaku were added in place of Kaga, and the operation was
pushed up to early May, because Yamamoto wanted all six of his big CVs for
the Midway operation in June.
        3) US radio intelligence picked up hints of Port Moresby offensive
(first clue, noted carrier Kaga tied up with Inoue; by mid April Nimitz
thought there would be a major enemy South Pacific offensive against not
only Port Moresby & Tulagi, but possibly also Fiji, Samoa, & New Caledonia.
He wanted to meet them head-on, hence would commit all four available
carriers. The Doolittle Raid ruined this plan, led to piecemeal deployment
of US carriers.
        4) raids can be spectacular but often counterproductive to overall
strategy; note especially Evan Carlson's Makin Raid on August 1942 (USMC
raiders brought in on subs; to be a diversion for Guadalcanal landings). Its main
main result was to show the Japanese how vulnerable Tarawa was and cause
them to fortify it.

        Sorry for the long winded reply.

John B. Lundstrom
Milwaukee Public Musem
jl@csd4.csd.uwm.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Oct 1993 14:56:37 EDT
From:    rod holmes <rholmes@DHVX20.CSUDH.EDU>
Subject: Source: Help! Need 1st volume 5th Army history

Howdy,

        I'm trying to find a copy of the first volume of the 5th Army
History from WWII to purchase. My school library will not get it
inter-library loan for me because I'm an undergraduate student. I
only need chapters three and four so photocoping these chapters might
also be an option.

Thanks,
Rod Holmes
rholmes@dhvx20.csudh.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Oct 1993 20:40:47 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Doolittle Raid -- missed Coral Sea opportunity?

Well, it is sobering to think I am going to disagree with the author of
  the best book on naval air combat in the South Pacific, BAR NONE --
  John Lundstrom, author of THE FIRST TEAM -- but here goes:

What determined the overall outcome of the Coral Sea was the weather.
  The opposing carrier groups almost came within visual range of each
  other, in spite of air searches, but didn't know it.

With luck, we damaged Shokaku and Zuikaku, the IJN fleet carriers.  With
  better weather we obliterated/annihilated/atomized -- creamed -- light
  carrier Shoho, covering the Port Moresby invasion force advancing from
  the North, but we didn't need more carriers to do that.

With the chaotic weather, Coral Sea was a throw of the dice, and more U.S.
  CVFs could have easily been just more victims.

By contrast, Midway was a carefully planned and timed -- calculated --
  operation.

I'm glad and grateful Hornet and Enterprise were off terrorizing those
  Japanese picket boats -- and that Jimmy Doolittle so shocked the
  Japanese and so heartened and re-galvanized all Americans.  It was a
  dramatic, heroic, all-American play.  Roosevelt certainly appreciated
  its decisive political importance.  America was hitting back!

Godspeed, Jimmy Doolittle.

Lou Coatney, WIU

     Terry, I'd really appreciate the info on that "first strike" from
Alaska.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Oct 1993 20:46:19 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Rats!

Reminds me of the scene in the Captain's cabin in the "Pirates"(?)
  film, starring Karl Malden.

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Oct 1993 20:52:23 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Nimitz's hopes for a big battle in the South Pacific

John,

     It was also lucky, then, that the big battle came up at Midway.  The
Japanese had all those bases in the South Pacific (to provide longrange
recon, etc.).  Up at Midway (in the North Central Pacific) they stuck
their necks way out -- without adequate, CRUCIAL recon.  Once it was
apparent they weren't going to be using Midway as an anchorage, they had
to go all the way back.

     The phenomenal range of land-based Zeros was also negated.

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Oct 1993 03:48:00 -0400
From:    "Helena M. Menezes 30935" <HMENEZES@WORLDBANK.ORG>
Subject: Re: WW2 Urban Legends/Folklore #

          There is also a P-61 at the Air & Space Museum's Paul Garber
          Facility (The Enola Gay is also there) in Maryland waiting for
          its turn (Restauration). If you like WWII planes, go visit this
          place, you won't regrat.

          Claudio

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 5 Oct 1993 to 6 Oct 1993
***********************************************

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There are 20 messages totalling 647 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Source: Help! Need 1st volume 5th Army history
  2. USAAF 7 OCT 43
  3. Doolittle Raid (3)
  4. Nimitz's hopes for a big battle in the South Pacific (4)
  5. INF: 135th Infantry
  6. Doolittle Raid boosted Allies morale? (4)
  7. FW: Timewatch - Kursk
  8. Query: French Paratroopers in D-Day
  9. (Old topic) Luftwaffe organization
 10. Mother of All Battles - Kursk
 11. Have we examined/discussed/critiqued Con Crane's book yet?
 12. Doolittle Raid -- Provocation atrocities

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Oct 1993 07:50:56 AST
From:    Joanne Brown <BROWNJM@ADMIN1.UNBSJ.CA>
Subject: Re: Source: Help! Need 1st volume 5th Army history

I can try to find a xeroxable copy for you, what is the author and
title of the book?

Joanne Brown
UNBSJ
Saint John, N.B.

                   Joanne Brown, Reference Department
Bibliotheque Ward Chipman Library         E-Mail     BROWNJM@UNBSJ.CA
University of New Brunswick               Tel (506)  648-5710
Saint John, N.B. Canada                   Fax (506)  648- 5701

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Oct 1993 07:04:01 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 7 OCT 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
THURSDAY, 7 OCTOBER 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  P-40, Curtiss

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ANTISUBMARINE OPERATIONS (First Air Force): The 14th Antisubmarine
Squadron (Heavy), 25th Antisubmarine Wing, transfers from Otis Field,
Massachusetts to Biggs Field, Texas and is transferred to the Second Air
Force.

  CARIBBEAN (Sixth Air Force): The 35th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 25th
Bombardment Group (Medium), transfers from Zandery Field, Surinam to Vernam
Field, Jamaica, British West Indies with B-25's. The detachment operating
from Atkinson Field, British Guiana also transfers to Vernam Field.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 4 B-25's attack a 2,500-ton freighter 100
miles (160 km) S of Amoy, China scoring 3 direct hits; the vessel is left
burning and listing. 9 B-24's and 22 fighters hit a cement plant at
Haiphong, French Indochina causing heavy damage to the kiln building.
  The 26th Fighter Squadron, 51st Fighter Group, transfers from Dinjan,
India to Kunming, China with P-40's.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): VIII Bomber Command Mission 110.
During the night of 7/8 Oct, 4 B-17's drop 240,352 leaflets over Paris at
2257-2307 hours; no losses or casualties.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): HQ 434th Troop Carrier Group and
it's 71st, 72d, 73d and 74th Troop Carrier Squadrons arrive at Fulbeck,
England from the US with C-47's.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): Bad weather
cancels many operations. In Italy, Northwest African Tactical Bomber Force
(NATBF) medium and light bombers strike roads, railway, junction, and town
areas in the Capua and Guglionesi regions. Royal Air Force (RAF) Desert Air
Force (DAF) fighter-bombers hit trucks in the Termoli-Vasto areas.
  HQ 57th Bombardment Wing transfers from Lentini, Sicily to Naples, Italy.
  HQ 64th Fighter Wing transfers from Milazzo, Sicily to Frattamaggiore,
Italy.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): The 72d
Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 5th Bombardment Group (Heavy), based on
Espiritu Santo Island, New Hebrides Islands with B-24's, begins operating
from Guadalcanal Island, Solomon Islands.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): In the Bismarck
Archipelago, a B-24 on patrol bombs Umboi Island, scoring damaging hits on
several buildings.
  HQ 374th Troop Carrier Group transfers from Port Moresby, New Guinea to
Townsville, Queensland, Australia.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
 Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Oct 1993 08:59:35 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <kc5318@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Doolittle Raid

John,
     Your account is well argued, though it differs significantly from
Spector's and I can't independently confirm either.  I do think you are greatly
underestimating the morale effects of the raid, and the importance of the
operation to US attitudes and perceptions.

                                             Con Crane

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Oct 1993 09:41:02 -0500
From:    John Lundstrom <jl@CSD4.CSD.UWM.EDU>
Subject: Re: Nimitz's hopes for a big battle in the South Pacific

Lou,
        I don't want to beat the issue of the impact of the Doolittle Raid
to death, but I think our odds of victory at Coral Sea in May with 4 CVs and
300 aircraft against 2 Japanese CVs and 1 CVL with 140 carrier aircraft were
a lot better than what occurred in June with 3 US CVs and 221 aircraft vs
4 Japanese CVs and 249 aircraft (including the 21 Zeros intended for Midway).
I also think a big US victory in the South Pacific would have raised Allied
morale pretty high as well.

        Nothing I say is intended in the least way to reflect upon the courage
and skill of the Doolittle raiders nor the sailors who took them to within
650 miles of Japan. I think General Doolittle was one of the finest men who
ever lived. Yet there were big implications of tyoing up 50 percent of the
Pacific Fleet's offensive power for a crucial 6 weeks.

        As for weather, it is a fickle ally. Just north of Midway was a weather
front that hid Nagumo's carrier forces on the way in (that's why the Midway
search didn't spot them on 3 June). Had that front come south, then things
really would have been interesting. With the Battle of Midway itself, the
"what ifs" are so mind-boggling, it is difficult to remain rational when
considering them.
                        All the best
                                        John

John B. Lundstrom  Milwaukee Public Museum
jl@csd4.csd.uwm.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Oct 1993 10:48:22 EDT
From:    "William B. Thacker" <wbt@CBEMF.ATT.COM>
Subject: INF: 135th Infantry

My roommate Andrew visited his grandmother yesterday, and she took him to
his grandfather's grave.  It turns out that he had been something of a war
hero, one of three brothers who went off to WWII. Two joined the air force,
the third, the infantry.  Two of the brothers died in 1944; the third,
Andrew's grandfather, was taken off combat duty at that point, and he
survived the war.

One of the brothers was in the "135th Infantry" and was killed in
September, 1944.  Checking my references tells me there was no 135th Inf.
Division, so I presume it must have been the 135th infantry regiment.  This
was part of the 34th Infantry Division, which fought in North Africa and
Italy.  It was part of the Anzio operation, and would have spent September,
1944, approaching, breaching, and exploiting the Gothic Line.

What seems out of place with this is that Shelby Stanton's _Order of
Battle_ lists the 135 Inf. Rgt. as a Minnesota Natl. Guard Unit, and I'm
pretty certain this soldier was an Ohio native.  I figure he wouldn't have
been part of this unit when it mustered, but might perhaps have been
assigned to it as a replacement.  Does that seem reasonable?

Assuming that the 135th Rgt. is right, can anyone point me toward more
information?  Where would I go to find out exactly when and where this man
joined the regiment?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
(614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              wbt@cbemf.att.com
                      Humpty Dumpty was pushed!

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Oct 1993 10:17:13 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Nimitz's hopes for a big battle in the South Pacific

John,

     Midway offered the bigger -- 4 IJN fleet carriers -- victory
opportunity without (with hindsight!) the weather/luck factor.

     My understanding of the front NW of Midway is that it is the
North Pacific air mass moving toward Alaska (with which I was intimately
acquainted in Juneau) and that that is much more stable/predictable than
the tropical air systems down near the Solomons.

     I don't mind beating this discussion to death, since I think I'm
winning it.

     Again, putting all (4) of our (CVF) eggs in one less predictable/
stable basket would have had a greater potential of mega-disaster than
our calculated risks at Midway.

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Oct 1993 11:26:36 EDT
From:    "William B. Thacker" <wbt@CBEMF.ATT.COM>
Subject: Re: Doolittle Raid

LTC Crane writes:

> >John Lundstrom writes:
> >
> >I agree.  If you look at an overall disposition of forces, the strategic
> >effects of the raid were zero (apart from giving the US newspapers something
> >good to write about).
> >
>
>     Those of you taking this line of argument are ignoring the facts and being
> very presentist.  I suggest you look at Ron Spector's EAGLE AGAINST THE SUN,
> page 155.  There were three key effects of the raid.  It was a tremendous
> psychological boost for the American public at a time when all news was bleak.
> It was a tremendous psychological blow to the Japanese that embarrassed the
> military and eliminated any resistance(which had been strong) to the Midway
> operation.

I think even this analysis short-changes the raid.  America wasn't the only
nation who needed a morale boost; the Japanese had also been kicking
Britain and the Commonwealth about the Pacific.  Australia was in fear for
its very existance, and China was watching her allies pushed further and
further away from being able to offer effective support.  And while the
USSR knew well that Japan intended no threat to them, we didn't know they
knew; the need to impress the USSR that America meant business must have
been great.

I wasn't alive then, but it seems to me that Doolittle's raid did more than
boost *our* confidence, it showed the entire world that America and the
Allies were not going to allow the Japanese to control the course of the
fight.  It also seems to me the exact thing needed for the benefit of our
armed forces; a retreating army's morale is lower than one that can expect
to receive orders to attack.

That's the up side.  I also feel people have been ignoring a major facet of
the down side.  I've read estimates in the hundreds of thousands for the
number of Chinese civilians killed by the Japanese in reprisal for the
raid.  That weighs heavily against any moral gains of the raid.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
(614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              wbt@cbemf.att.com
                      Humpty Dumpty was pushed!

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Oct 1993 10:35:52 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Doolittle Raid boosted Allies morale?

How about it WWII-L?  We (still) have any "Allies" out there to give us
  your more expert opinion?  Ever hear of the Doolittle Raid?

(Good post, Bill.)

Lou Coatney, WIU, Macomb, IL, USA

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Oct 1993 10:45:38 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Nimitz's hopes for a big battle in the South Pacific

Lou,

It must not be forgotten that the Japanese had a blind sight to their
planning. They were convinced that their codes were unbreakable, that
the Americans would react according to Japanese expectations, and
that their occupation of Midway would not be discerned from the
Japanese attempt to occupy Kiska and Attu. It was this thinking that
led to their downfall.

Terry



Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Oct 1993 16:51:18 U
From:    Roland Hamblin EOS <rolandh@EOS.CO.UK>
Subject: FW: Timewatch - Kursk

________________________________________________________
From: Roland Hamblin EOS on Thu, Oct 7, 1993 10:52 am
Subject: Timewatch - Kursk
To: WWII-L

I videoed the program to watch at a later date, so perhaps this leads to some
comment.

If anyone would like to 'borrow' my copy, please let me know.

Roland
rolandh@eos.co.uk


                                             /O\
                               \______[|(.)|]______/
                                     o ++    O    ++ o
                                 Phantoms Phorever

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Oct 1993 15:04:43 EDT
From:    Doug McCabe <mccabe@OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Query: French Paratroopers in D-Day

                   Ohio University Electronic Communication


   Date:  07-Oct-1993 03:04pm EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject:  Query: French Paratroopers in D-Day


    I have been looking through the Cornelius Ryan Collection here to
    provide information for a TV production company working on a two hour
    documentary which will be broadcast on the Discovery Channel on the
    50th anniversary of the OVERLORD invasion.

    While reading a Ryan manuscript entitled "D-Day Plus 20" I ran across
    something new to me and possibly significant.  He claimed he learned
    since writing his book _The Longest Day_ that 32 groups (seven men and
    one officer in each group) of Frenchmen were parachuted into France
    that day to hook up with the Underground between Brittany and Paris.
    They were carrying a great deal of explosives and other material with
    the intention of delaying German troop movements to the beachhead,
    especially the rail system which required paralysis for at least 15
    days.  Ryan does not cite any sources.

    I have long been aware of the OSS Jedborogh (sp?) operations whereby
    agents were dropped to the Underground for much the same reason.  But,
    I never heard of 256 Frenchmen being dropped as well.  Has anyone out
    there heard of this operation?  What sources might there be to confirm
    such a drop?  If this operation did happen, what was the result?  Was
    it a British or American fronted operation?

    From the context of Ryan's manuscript I wonder if these were dropped
    very early on D-Day and might have been the first to land, adding a new
    wrinkle to the old argument of who was the first to hit the Continent -
    a Brit or a Yank.  Since we're playing with the Carpetbaggers at the
    moment, could the 8th's special unit acted as the delivery system?

    BTW, I found in a file on a soldier in the 1st Division a group of
    photo negs which have been unknown all these years and unpublished.
    There are several shots of Gen. Wyman and another officer at the
    embarkation point.  Also safely in England are shots of one of the
    made-famous-by-Ryan London Fire Brigade ladders topped with BARs for
    use in the Pointe-du-Hoc attack.  Perhaps the most interesting are two
    shots, taken from a prone position - one to the left and one to the
    right, of Omaha Beach Easy Red sometime after H+110.  It is well known
    that most of the photos taken during the early part of the landings
    that day were destroyed by a careless photo lab person in England.
    That, I believe, makes the above described photos very rare.  Also in
    the same file are original carbon copies of messages written by Wyman
    to be radioed to the command ship.  One pleads for the H+215 wave to be
    sent in immediately.  An earlier message reports the situation confused
    and serious.

    Ah, archives work is so fun.

    Doug McCabe
    mccabe@cats.ohiou.edu



Received:  07-Oct-1993 03:04pm

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Oct 1993 15:02:20 LCL
From:    Tom Shirhall <tshirhal@IDA.ORG>
Subject: Re: Doolittle Raid boosted Allies morale?

Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1993 17:09:33
From: tshirhal (Tom Shirhall)
To: WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu(WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu)
Subject: Re: Doolittle Raid
Message-ID: <QCB3340E@tshirhall-pc>


Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1993 17:04:00
From: tshirhal (Tom Shirhall)
To: WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu
Subject: Re: Doolittle Raid
Message-ID: <QCB332C1@tshirhall-pc>
In-Reply-To: <9310062050.AA02123@ida.org>

LTC Con Crane said
>     Those of you taking this line of argument are ignoring the facts and
>being very presentist. It was a tremendous psychological boost for the
>American public at a time when all news was bleak.

I was nine at this time. It may be news to you, but we weren't sure
that we were going to win the war. Submarines were sinking U.S. ships
in sight of the U.S. mainland. Germany was chewing up the Soviet Union,
Fortress Europa seemed impregnable, and Australia appeared to be going the
way of Singapore. We were saving animal fat in cans, old tires, tinfoil,
and growing Victory Gardens. Cigarettes, meat, and gasoline were rationed,
and their were no civilian goods being manufactured.

First came the raid, then Midway, and then Guadalcanal, and things started
to look brighter.

Tom Shirhall            tshirhal@ida.org

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Oct 1993 14:46:04 -0400
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: (Old topic) Luftwaffe organization

While reading Donald L. Caldwell's book "JG 26: Top Guns of the
Luftwaffe" (ISBN 0-8041-1050-6), I ran across some information
that someone had asked for a few weeks ago, the organization of
the Luftwaffe in WWII.  Having deleted the original post, I've
elected to post it to the entire list.

The Germans experimented with formations of three fighter aircraft
(kette) during the Spanish Civil War.  They abandoned this in
favor of a four plane element, the schwarm, composed of two pairs,
or rotte.  (The RAF started the war with four three-plane elements
making up a squadron, but converted to six pairs.)

A Jagdstaffel consisted of three schwarm, or twelve aircraft, at
the start of WWII, but was increased to four schwarm in 1943.
(A staffel would be the equivalent of a USAAF squadron.)

A Jagdgruppe (JGr) was comprised of three or four Staffeln, plus
a Stab, or staff flight, and therefore 40-68 aircraft. (Equivalent
to a USAAF group.)

Three or four gruppen formed a Jagdgeschwader (JG), with 124-208
aircraft.

Four JG formed a Jagdfliegerfuehrer, or Jafue; a fighter command,
which was attached to a Luftflotte, the equivalent of a numbered
US air force.  A Luftflotte could also contain heavy fighter units,
Zerstoerergeschwader (ZG), usually with Bf 110s; bomber units, or
Kampfgeschwader (KG) with Ju 88s, He 111s, Do 217s; and attack or
dive bomber units, Stukageschwader (StG).

Note that all of the quantites of aircraft quoted were authorized
strengths, not actual strengths.  Luftwaffe units were chronically
understaffed and underequipped, with shortages becoming more acute
as the war progressed.


Dennis E. Sparks
SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Oct 1993 14:12:27 -0500
From:    John Lundstrom <jl@CSD4.CSD.UWM.EDU>
Subject: Re: Nimitz's hopes for a big battle in the South Pacific

Lou,
        If you would have preferred fighting with the odds Fletcher and
Spruance faced in June at Midway than what Halsey with four carriers
would have enjoyed in early May in the Coral Sea, then my hat is off
to you. Your more stable air front at Midway slipped down over the island
on 10 June and completely socked the place in; a couple of planes were
lost due to bad weather.
        Too often the real freak nature of the American victory at Midway
is under-estimated. Midway is far different than the other 1942 carrier
battles. In no other battle were the Americans able to sink Japanese carriers
by bombs alone; that is because in all instances they caught the Japanese
with armed and fueled planes on deck. For Eastern Solomons and Santa Cruz,
I recommend seeing my book The First Team and the Guadalcanal Campaign, which
the Naval Institute is releasing next month.

John Lundstrom - Milwaukee Public Museum

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Oct 1993 15:35:18 EDT
From:    "William B. Thacker" <wbt@CBEMF.ATT.COM>
Subject: Re: Mother of All Battles - Kursk

Richard Kirby writes an excellent summary of the BBC program (thanks,
Richard!)
>
> At Stalingrad the German Army suffered their first major defeat -
> 91000 6th Army soldiers taken prisoner, with < 10% seeing Germany
> again. But the Germans soon rallied and attacked again under von
> Mansteins leadership, decimating three soviet armies, and recapturing
> Kharkov (the 4th largest city).
>
> Von Manstein's ADC during '42-'44 is still alive, and was interviewed.
> He said that Hitler had made a mistake in forcing von Manstein to stop
> this succesful offensive, his second major mistake since letting the
> BEF off the hook at Dunkirk. He claimed Hitler was obsessed with
> numbers, production figures, and new technology. He thought in
> quantities, and wanted to wait for new tanks and then have a gigantic
> tank battle to eliminate the salient at Kursk, and cutting the main
> rail link between the North and the South.

This doesn't sound right, to me.  First, I thought Manstein's
counteroffensive, aka "the Miracle on the Donetz," aka his "backhand blow,"
was stopped by the onset of the spring thaw.  Hitler's meddling, as I
understood, came later; Manstein wanted to resume the attack as soon as the
ground was firm, but Hitler kept delaying the battle while bringing in more
forces and waiting for the Panthers to be ready.  I've read Manstein's
memoirs... perhaps I'm misremembering this?

I would offer that it's entirely melodramatic for the ADC to suggest that
any decision regarding Kursk was Hitler's "second major mistake since...
Dunkirk."  Hitler's moves re: Guderian's panzerkorps during the Barbarossa
offensive were more important decisions and had greater impact on the
course of the war.  The outcome on the Eastern front had already been
decided before the battle of Kursk began; all that remained to be
determined was the timetable.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
(614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              wbt@cbemf.att.com
                      Humpty Dumpty was pushed!

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Oct 1993 15:30:33 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <kc5318@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Doolittle Raid

Bill Thacker writes of the Doolittle Raid:
>That's the up side.  I also feel people have been ignoring a major facet of
>the down side.  I've read estimates in the hundreds of thousands for the
>number of Chinese civilians killed by the Japanese in reprisal for the
>raid.  That weighs heavily against any moral gains of the raid.

Bill, I don't understand your logic.  Perhaps if we had known about the retalia
tions that the raid would bring,that might lessen the moral impact, but we cann
ot be held responsible for unexpected enemy excesses in response to military ac
tions.  Besides, I think your numbers are considerably exaggerated.  As far as
I know, the response of the Japanese Army in China was to conduct a campaign to
 eliminate possible air base areas instead of a considered program of retaliati
on.  That's based on what Toland says.  Even so, blaming us for any atrocities
in response to the raid is like blaming the Allies who fought to free Kuwait fo
r the fact that Saddam Hussein destroyed Kuwait's oil wells.

                                                  Con Crane

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Oct 1993 15:27:19 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Doolittle Raid boosted Allies morale?

Lou,

The Doolittle raid was a propaganda victory for this country. There
is no doubt about it. It forced the Japanese to maintain substantial
air forces at home to prevent a reoccurrence, and, in a tactical
sense, it forced them to move up their timetables which led to the
Coral Sea and Midway battles.

I don't think General Doolittle had the slightest inkling of the
repercussions that his raid would and did have on the Japanese
Empire. His sole purpose was to prove to the American public that,
despite the somber news of the war at that stage, America still had
the capacity and will to project its fighting power all the way to
the heart of the Jap Empire. Everything else that transpired was of
secondary importance, at least from the standpoint of the Doolittle
raiders.

Any rebuttals?

Terry










Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Oct 1993 17:04:55 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Have we examined/discussed/critiqued Con Crane's book yet?

Has anyone seen Con's new book on the history of U.S. bombing campaigns yet?

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Oct 1993 17:33:55 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Doolittle Raid boosted Allies morale?

No rebuttals, Terry.  I thought you and I were in agreement.

Lou

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Oct 1993 17:39:17 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Doolittle Raid -- Provocation atrocities

Maybe it wasn't such a good post, Bill.  Did you say THAT?

Are you really saying that the harder we fought the war, the more we were
  provoking -- justifying? -- atrocities?

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 6 Oct 1993 to 7 Oct 1993
***********************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 7 Oct 1993 to 8 Oct 1993
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There are 11 messages totalling 568 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. USAAF 8 OCT 43
  2. Missions against Japan
  3. INF: 345th Fighter Wing
  4. Aircraft carriers
  5. Doolittle Raid boosted Allies morale?
  6. Balck & von Mellenthin vs. Warsaw Pact -- NTIS microfiche (2)
  7. 345th FS/350th FG P-39s
  8. Doolittle Raid (2)
  9. USAAF 9-10 OCT 43

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Oct 1993 07:02:03 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 8 OCT 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
FRIDAY, 8 OCTOBER 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 9 B-24's, supported by 20 P-40's, bomb Gia
Lam Airfield in French Indochina. While on ferry mission over the Hump, 3
B-24's bomb Tengchung, China scoring hits on warehouses, barracks, and a HQ
area.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): VIII Bomber Command Mission 111.
4 locations in Germany are targetted. On this mission the Eighth Air Forces
uses, for the first time, airborne transmitters (Carpet equipment) to jam
German radar.  30 bombers and 3 fighters are lost.
  1. 105 of 118 B-17's dispatched to the shipyard at Breman hit the target
at 1505-1513 hours; they claim 42-2-28 Luftwaffe aircraft; 9 B-17's are
lost and 61 damaged; casualties are 2 KIA, 18 WIA and 90 MIA.
  2. 53 of 56 B-17's dispatched to the industrial area at Breman hit the
target at 1512-1513 hours; they claim 24-7-17 Luftwaffe aircraft; 4 B-17's
are lost and 44 damaged; casualties are 1 KIA, 12 WIA and 41 MIA.
  3. 43 of 55 B-24's dispatched to the U-boat yards at Vegesack hit the
target at 1622-1624 hours; they claim 17-1-7 Luftwaffe aircraft; 3 B-24's
are lost and 21 damaged; casualties are 1 KIA, 5 WIA and 30 MIA.
  4. 156 of 170 B-17's dispatched to the city of Bremen hit the target and
targets of opportunity at 1505-1527 hours; they claim 84-12-33 Luftwaffe
aircraft; 14 B-17's are lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 110 damaged;
casualties are 21 WIA and 140 MIA.
  The B-17's are escorted by 274 P-47's; they claim 12-2-4 Luftwaffe
aircraft; 3 P-47's are lost and 5 damaged; casualties are 2 WIA and 3 MIA.
  VIII Air Support Command Mission 80: 144 B-26's are dispatched to
Lille/Vendeville and Chievres Airfields in France; the mission is abandoned
due to thick haze and generally unsuitable weather; 4 B-26's are damaged.
  VIII Bomber Command Mission 112: 2 B-17's drop 266,336 leaflets over
Rennes at 0005-0011 hours, 9 Oct 43.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Greece, XII
Bomber Command B-24's bomb Tatoi and Eleusis Airfields at Athens, airfields
at Kastelli and Heraklion Airfields on Crete, and Maritsa Airfield on
Rhodes; B-25's also hit Eleusis airfield; P-38's fly convoy cover, patrols,
and sweeps over the Aegean Sea. Weather prevents the XII Air Support
Command from operating. In Italy, the Northwest African Tactical Bomber
Force (NATBF) and Royal Air Force (RAF) Desert Air Force (DAF) hit a bridge
at Minturno and a road junction and military concentration at Termoli.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): B-25's and
P-40's sink a barge off the W coast of Choiseul Island in the Solomon
Islands.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): A single B-24 on
armed reconnaissance bombs Cape Gloucester Airfield on New Britain Island
in the Bismarck Archipelago.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
 Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Oct 1993 07:22:55 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: Missions against Japan

During the discussion of Jimmy Doolittle, someone mention that his 18
Apr 42 mission against Japan was actually the second U.S. bombing
mission against the Home Islands.  I have checked two Office of Air
Force History sources and I cannot find any mention of such a raid.  It
is hard for me to believe that another raid occurred in early 1942
because even when we began bombing the Kurile Islands in late 1943, we
used bases on the westernmost Aleutian Islands, e.g., Amchitka, Attu,
etc. and these airfields were not built until 1943.

Would whoever posted this information please update us with any
dates, references, etc.

TIA.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Oct 1993 08:41:30 EDT
From:    "William B. Thacker" <wbt@CBEMF.ATT.COM>
Subject: INF: 345th Fighter Wing

I mentioned yesterday that my roommate had been learning about his
grandfather's duties in WWII.

Andrew's grandmother gave him a copy of a clipping from the local paper,
written in 1945 when Lt. Seeds was deployed back to a local airbase
following the deaths of his two brothers.

The clipping says that he flew P-39's in North Africa, Sicily, and Italy.
Andrew's grandmother also gave him a picture of "a plane like grandpa's,"
taken at an airshow, and it is certainly a P-39 (albeit in Russian
markings, a common configuration for that plane).

The newspaper mentions an incident that occured while strafing an enemy
train; his wing caught a wire which severed something like 3 feet from the
tip, and he found himself flying inverted 15 feet off the ground!  He
managed to bring the plane home, though.  I'm guessing that accounts for
one of the three Bronze Stars he won.  The paper also says he wore the
Presidential Unit Citation and was credited with 50 combat missions.

His grandmother claimed that he served with the 345th Fighter Wing of
the 350th Fighter Group.


I was surprised by all this; I thought the P-39 was considered obsolete
well before Operation Torch, and certainly before the invasion of Sicily.
With aircraft, though, I'm admittedly out of my element, so I figured I'd
defer to some of the experts on this list.  Did the 345th Wing fly P-39's
so late in the war?  Perhaps it hung on as "good enough for ground
attack."

It strikes me as reasonable that he may have trained on a P-39, but later
flown other aircraft in combat.

Also, is there any rule of the thumb for awarding Bronze Stars to fighter
pilots?  E.g., "you get a bronze star when you become an ace" or "after 25
missions" or something?


Apart from that, anything on the 345th/350th, especially w.r.t. their
combat record and the circumstances behind the Unit Citation, would be
appreciated.

Tanks in advance!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
(614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              wbt@cbemf.att.com
                      Humpty Dumpty was pushed!

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Oct 1993 15:25:48 +0200
From:    Chris Scogings <cscoging@UNPCS1.CS.UNP.AC.ZA>
Subject: Aircraft carriers

I picked this up in one of those (endless) messages on the Doolittle raid:

I know about
  CV = carrier
  CVL = light carrier
  CVE = escort carrier

so what is a CVF ?

Thanks
Chris
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Scogings                      Voice: (27) 331 955645
Computer Science Dept                 Fax: (27) 331 955599
University of Natal
Pietermaritzburg                   E-Mail:cscoging@unpcs1.cs.unp.ac.za
----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Oct 1993 15:41:23 +0200
From:    Chris Scogings <cscoging@UNPCS1.CS.UNP.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: Doolittle Raid boosted Allies morale?

>How about it WWII-L?  We (still) have any "Allies" out there to give us
>  your more expert opinion?  Ever hear of the Doolittle Raid?

>From the only South African on WWII-L:

Not only have I heard of it, I've participated briefly in the endless debate
on it.  My mother (in her twenties at the time) claims she never heard of
it, but she spent most of 1942 giving medical attention to the 50 000
Italian POWs held here (Pietermaritzburg, Natal).  About 2000 POWs died of
disease and (probably) malnutrition and are buried here.  South Africans
really only followed the war in Ethiopia, North Africa and Italy where our
own troops were employed.  Most of them have also heard about D-Day and
Arnhem (for some strange reason).  The rest of it is a closed book.

But then most Americans seem to think WWII started in December 1941 and
they're not too sure which side the Russians were on :-)

Chris
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Scogings                      Voice: (27) 331 955645
Computer Science Dept                 Fax: (27) 331 955599
University of Natal
Pietermaritzburg                   E-Mail:cscoging@unpcs1.cs.unp.ac.za
----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Oct 1993 09:37:35 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Balck & von Mellenthin vs. Warsaw Pact -- NTIS microfiche

Michael,

     You are right.  Jim Dunnigan set it up.

     The National Technical Information Service (NTIS) report number is

                           AD A097 704

     It should be available in papercopy or microfiche.  Check with your
nearest research library for details.

     It wasn't in the report that I (think I) read B & vM got creamed, of
course.

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Oct 1993 10:26:57 -0400
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: Re: 345th FS/350th FG P-39s

The 350th Fighter Group was intended from the outset to be a
part of the 12th AF.  They were however a part of the 8th AF
in England from 1 October 1942 until December, when they were
officially handed over to the 12th.  The group apparently flew
no operational missions with the 8th.  Their original aircraft
were to be P-39 and P-400 Airacobras (The P-400 was an Airacobra
built for the British, who rejected the type as unsuitable for
combat in Europe.)  All three squadrons of the group (345th,
346th, 347th Fighter Squadrons) transitioned to the Spitfire V
while in England, and took these aircraft with them to N. Africa
in January 1943, so I don't believe the group ever used the
Airacobra in combat.


Dennis E. Sparks
SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Oct 1993 12:25:08 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Doolittle Raid

Dear Bill,

With reference to your posting which I found very interesting, it
must not be forgotten that there is always a "down side". There is
always a price to pay, and that means, of course, that, in the case
of the Doolittle raid, many innocent people will have to pay with
their life to advance the cause. Such incidents are always
regrettable, but must be accepted as part of the price to pay, and it
was war. Case after case of such incidents can be cited, but, if one
takes all those risks into consideration, then nothing gets
accomplished.

I know you were just pointing out the down side, but, from the
propaganda and tactical results that were attained, the price was
well worth the cost. Don't you agree?

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Oct 1993 13:43:21 EDT
From:    "William B. Thacker" <wbt@CBEMF.ATT.COM>
Subject: Re: Doolittle Raid

LTC Crane writes:

> Bill Thacker writes of the Doolittle Raid:
> >That's the up side.  I also feel people have been ignoring a major facet of
> >the down side.  I've read estimates in the hundreds of thousands for the
> >number of Chinese civilians killed by the Japanese in reprisal for the
> >raid.  That weighs heavily against any moral gains of the raid.
>
>Bill, I don't understand your logic.  Perhaps if we had known about the
>retalia tions that the raid would bring, that might lessen the moral
>impact, but we cann ot be held responsible for unexpected enemy excesses in
>response to military ac tions.

That's a problem when quoting me out of the context of the discussion.

The point that was being argued was whether or not the Doolittle Raid was a
good call.  There are two approaches one may take when arguing about the
correctness of an historical decision:

 1) Was the decision was the correct one given the information
        available to the decision-maker? (Was it a good bet?)

 2) Was the decision correct in hindsight? (Did it pay off?)

The discussions taking place were clearly of the second type; "We would
have been better off with two more carriers at Coral Sea" is an argument
based in hindsight, as is "The raid removed any resistance by the Japanese
staff to the Midway Operation."  Neither of these results was foreseeable
to Roosevelt at the time the raid was ordered.

If we're doing a hindsight analysis, we're basically asking, "If we could
go back, knowing what we know now, would we do it again?"  All I'm saying
is that if we're playing that game, we *must* consider the Chinese
civilians the Japanese killed, because we, unlike Roosevelt, are not
ignorant of that outcome.

Does that clear it up?


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
(614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              wbt@cbemf.att.com
                      Humpty Dumpty was pushed!

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Oct 1993 14:31:35 EDT
From:    Robert E George <regeorge@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Balck & von Mellenthin vs. Warsaw Pact -- NTIS microfiche

>
> Michael,
>
>      You are right.  Jim Dunnigan set it up.

     What? I missed the original posting -- it sounds interesting?
>
>      The National Technical Information Service (NTIS) report number is
>
>                            AD A097 704
>
>      It should be available in papercopy or microfiche.  Check with your
> nearest research library for details.
>
>      It wasn't in the report that I (think I) read B & vM got creamed, of
> course.
>
> Lou Coatney, WIU

Rob George
regeorge@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Oct 1993 15:16:29 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 9-10 OCT 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-7, Consolidated Liberator
  F4U, Vought Corsair (USN)
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt

SATURDAY, 9 OCTOBER 1943

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 12 Kuril-based Japanese bombers attack Attu
Island.

  ANTISUBMARINE WARFARE (First Air Force): The 25th Antisubmarine Squadron,
26th Antisubmarine Wing, transfers from Jacksonville AAFld, Florida to
Clovis AAF, New Mexico and is reassigned to the Second Air Force. The
squadron will be disbanded on 28 Oct 43.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 4 B-25's on a shipping sweep off the SE China
coast in the Amoy-Quemoy area sink a 150-ft (45.7 m) tanker and damage a
patrol vessel, and a freighter. 1 B-25 crashes into a hill and explodes. 10
P-40's bomb fuel storage and barracks at Mangshih, China; 1 P-40 is downed
by ground fire.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): VIII Bomber Command Mission 113.
2 targets in Germany and 2 in Poland are hit; 26 B-17's and 2 B-24's are
lost.
  1. 106 of 115 B-17's hit the industrial area in Anklam, Germany at
1142-1146 hours; they claim 65-19-47 Luftwaffe aircraft, 18 B-17's are
lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 51 damaged; casualties are 25 WIA and 185
MIA.
  2. 96 of 100 B-17's hit the industrial area in Marienburg, Germany at
1253-1302 hours; they claim 9-2-0 Luftwaffe aircraft; 2 B-17's are lost and
13 damaged; casualties are 3 WIA and 21 MIA.
  3. 41 of 51 B-24's hit the U-boat yards at Danzig and the port area at
Gdynia, Poland at 1305 hours; they claim 7-3-4 Luftwaffe aircraft; 2 B-24's
are lost, 1 is damaged beyond repair and 19 damaged; casualties are 1 WIA
and 21 MIA.
  4. 109 of 112 B-17's hit the port area at Gdynia, Poland at 1304-1324
hours; they claim 41-5-10 Luftwaffe aircraft; 6 B-17's are lost, 1 damaged
beyond repair and 62 damaged; casualties are 6 WIA and 60 MIA.
  VIII Air Support Command Mission 81: 66 of 72 B-26's bomb the Woensdrecht
Airfield in the Netherlands at 1516-1526 hours; 26 B-26's are damaged. This
is the final Eighth Air Force B-26 operation; the B-26's will be transferred
to the Ninth Air Force.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): XII Bomber Command
B-17's bomb airfields at Larissa, Athens and Salonika, Greece and Argos,
Italy. B-24's hit Kastelli/Pediada Airfield on Crete. P-38's fly a sweep
between the island of Corfu, Greece and Dubrovnik, Yugoslavia and escort
shipping in the Karpathos Straits between Carpathos and Rhodes. In Italy, the
XII Air Support Command does not operate, but the Northwest African Tactical
Bomber Force (NATBF) and Royal Air Force (RAF) Desert Air Force (DAF) hit
traffic in the Termoli and Montenero areas, guns N of Capua, a HQ at Palata,
and roads and railroads N of Naples.
  HQ 79th Fighter Group transfers from Crotone to Foggia, Italy.
  The 66th, 67th, 68th and 506th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), 44th
Bombardment Group (Heavy), cease operating from Tunis, Tunisia and return
to their base at Shipdham, England with B-24's.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, B-25's and P-40's hit barges and concentrations on W Choiseul
Island. P-39's and US Navy F4U's strafe buildings, a radar station, and gun
positions at Poporang Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea,
A-20's and Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) airplanes bomb and strafe
defensive positions in the Sattelberg and Finschhafen areas. B-24's bomb
Makassar on Celebes Island.
  The 2d Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 22d Bombardment Group (Medium),
transfers from Reid River, Australia to Dobodura, New Guinea with B-26's.
They re-entered combat on 5 Oct after R&R in Australia since Jan 43.
  The 65th Troop Carrier Squadron, 54th Troop Carrier Wing, transfers from
Port Moresby to Nadzab, New Guinea. The squadron is operating from Tsili
Tsili, New Guinea with C-47's.

SUNDAY, 10 OCTOBER 1943

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): 7 B-24's pound the Meza railroad bridge in
Burma, destroying the 3 spans on the E end and dropping the end of a central
span into the river.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 20 B-24's and 18 P-40's pound docks at
Haiphong, French Indochina. In China, 8 P-40's bomb a match factory and
ammunition dump at Tengchung; 8 others hit a supply dump and targets of
opportunity in the Lungling area.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): VIII Bomber Command Mission 114.
236 of 274 B-17's hit the railroads and waterways in and around Munster,
Germany at 1503-1518 hours plus targets of opportunity at Coesfeld, Germany
and Enschede Airfield in the Netherlands; they claim 183-21-51 Luftwaffe
aircraft; 30 B-17's are lost, 3 damaged beyond repair and 102 damaged;
casualties are 2 KIA, 18 WIA and 306 MIA. 39 B-24's fly a diversion without
loss or casualties. The B-17's are escorted by 216 P-47's; they claim 19-0-0
Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 P-47 is lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 1 damaged;
casualties are 1 MIA.
  The 360th Fighter Squadron, 356th Fighter Group, transfers from Goxhill
to Martlesham, England with P-47's. The squadron will fly it's first mission
on 15 Oct.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): B-17's bomb 2
airfields at Athens, Greece while B-24's hit Maritsa Airfield on Rhodes and
Calato and Heraklion Airfields on Crete. P-38's escort shipping off Rhodes,
hit Antimachia Airfield in the Dodecanese Islands, and attack vessels in
the harbors of Corfu, Greece and Kotor, Yugoslavia, and off Tivat, Yugoslavia
and hit targets of opportunity in the Aegean Sea and along its E coastline.
In Italy, the NATBF and RAF DAF concentrate on gun positions on both the US
Fifth and British Eighth Army battlefronts; vehicles, railroads, and town
areas also are hit; the attacks take place NE of Capua, at Guglionesi, at
Cassino and Mondragone, between Rome and Terracina, and around the Termoli-
Isernia-Pescara areas.
  HQ 82d Fighter Group and it's 95th, 96th and 97th Fighter Squadron transfer
from San Pancrazio to Lecce, Italy with P-38's.
  A detachment of the 380th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 310th Bombardment
Group (Medium), based at Menzel Temime, Tunisia with B-25's begins operating
from Oudna, Tunisia.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, 24 B-24's, 50+ P-38's, P-40's, and P-39's, and 50+ US Navy
fighters and dive bombers pound Kahili Airfield on Bougainville Island and
surrounding areas, hitting runways, a fuel dump, supply area, buildings,
and Malabita Hill gun positions. US airplanes claim 15 interceptors shot
down.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea,
A-20's, along with RAAF airplanes, again pound the Sattelberg area. During
the night of 10/11 Oct, B-25's hit Saumlakki on Tanimbar Island in the
Moluccas Islands.
  HQ 6th Photographic Reconnaissance Group arrives at Sydney, New South
Wales, Australia from the US.
  The ground echelon of the 20th Combat Mapping Squadron, 4th Photographic
Group (Reconnaissance), arrives at Sydney, New South Wales, Australia from
the US. The squadron is attached to the 6th Photographic Reconnaissance
Group and will be reassigned to the 6th on 5 Dec 43. The air echelon, with
B-24's and F-7's, will remain in the US until 26 Jan 44.
  The 70th Troop Carrier Squadron, 433d Troop Carrier Group, transfers from
Port Moresby to Nadzab, New Guinea with C-47's.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
 Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 7 Oct 1993 to 8 Oct 1993
***********************************************

From @UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU:owner-WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU Sat Oct  9 23:01:50 1993
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There is one message totalling 8 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. <No subject given>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 9 Oct 1993 20:21:00 EST
From:    "I don't want your blood money." <90867@TAYLORU.BITNET>
Subject: <No subject given>

   Subcribe Timothy M. Captain

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 8 Oct 1993 to 9 Oct 1993
***********************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 9 Oct 1993 to 10 Oct 1993
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There are 3 messages totalling 92 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. WEAP: Elefant, former Ferdinand (Re: REF: Volume 14 of the series
     _Militaerfahrzeuge_) (2)
  2. WWII 4th Armored Division

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 10 Oct 1993 08:01:29 -0400
From:    Akira Takiguchi <akira@ATSON.ASAHI-NP.CO.JP>
Subject: WEAP: Elefant,
         former Ferdinand (Re: REF: Volume 14 of the series _Militaerfahrzeuge_)

     A couple of days ago I visited my friend to know that my knowlege
was obsolete;  Motorbuch has already published Volume #15 of the series
_Militaerfahrzeuge_.  I bought a copy today.

>So, Akira, what's the resolution to that Panzer VI tank destroyer
>that debutted at Kursk?  Is it a Ferdinand or an Elefant?  Thanks.

     According to _Schwere Jagdpanzer_ (Spielberger, Doyle, Jentz), page
72 (only a few from over 20):

     - name -                   - source -        - date -
     Panzerjaeger Tiger (P)     D656/2(sic)       May 1 1943
     Ferdinand                  s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt.653 May 3 1943 - Apr 1 1944
     "Suggestivname Elefant fuer
      8,8 cm Sturmgeschuetz
      Porsche"                  Ge.St.d.H/Org.Abt Feb 27 1944

     AT LEAST front line troops called the monster "Ferdinand" as late as
early 1944.  That is, _Ferdinand_ is better for Kursk period.  I'm still
searching for D656/1 and Hitler's order on Jan 27th, 1944.  If somebody
out there have information, please let me know.

     BTW, this volume 15 is as valuable as its predecessor.  Covering
Jagdpanther, Ferdinand/Elefant and Jagdtiger, it's ... GREAT.
Many never before published photos of Ferdinands etc, lotsa new information.
You might be interested in the fact that PORSCHE TIGER was actually used
in the front line as a commanding tank of an Elefant formation (sPzJgAbt.
653).  The formation is yet more interesting that it had a Panther-with-
Panzer IV-turret as a command tank, 2cm FLAK on T34 (like Wirbelwind).
Photographs included.
--
      Akira Takiguchi  VP, ATSON, Inc.  (a subsidiary of the Asahi Shimbun)
             CANAL TOWER  9-3 Nihonbashi-Koamicho Chuo-ku Tokyo 103  Japan
   +81 3 3666 2881(voice) 2882(fax)  EMAIL TO <akira@atson.asahi-np.co.jp>

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 10 Oct 1993 12:57:38 -0400
From:    Akira Takiguchi <akira@ATSON.ASAHI-NP.CO.JP>
Subject: WEAP: Elefant,
         former Ferdinand (Re: REF: Volume 14 of the series _Militaerfahrzeuge_)

I posted the previous message too early :-(.  On page 116, _Schwere Jagd-
panzer_, it says (traslation by me):

"On November 1943 Hitler had asked OKH for a proposal about changing names
of armored vehicles and other weapons.  Their name proposal was accepted
and confirmed by an order on February 1st, 1944, repeated on February 27th."

This is the same order as that eliminated the name Hummel and changed
Hornisse to Nashorn.

It's time to close this case 8-).
--
      Akira Takiguchi  VP, ATSON, Inc.  (a subsidiary of the Asahi Shimbun)
             CANAL TOWER  9-3 Nihonbashi-Koamicho Chuo-ku Tokyo 103  Japan
   +81 3 3666 2881(voice) 2882(fax)  EMAIL TO <akira@atson.asahi-np.co.jp>

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 10 Oct 1993 18:17:07 PDT
From:    "Iver J. Kern" <ijkern@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: WWII 4th Armored Division

Dear Mr. Jewell,

Thanks very much for your offer to post my inquiry to WWII-L.  Please
forward the following message to the list:

        My father, a former member of the 10th Armored Infantry Battalion of
the 4th Armored Division, is looking for information on the history of
the division during World War II.  He is particularly interested in the route
of the battalion through France, and the names of any other members of the
battalion who were with him there in 1944.  He also asked me to inquire
whether the 4th Armored Association is still in existence and, if so, how
to contact it.

        We would be very grateful for any help.  Please respond directly
to me by e-mail at ijkern@netcom.com.

        Thanks very much for your help.

        Iver Kern
        <ijkern@netcom.com>

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 9 Oct 1993 to 10 Oct 1993
************************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 10 Oct 1993 to 11 Oct 1993
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Status: O

There are 12 messages totalling 862 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Jimmy Doolittle
  2. USAAF 11 OCT 43
  3. 350th Fighter Group
  4. GEN: Frank Wisner and OSS
  5. WWII 4th Armored Division (fwd)
  6. Part 1: WWIIHRS NATIONAL BATTLE
  7. Nimitz's hopes for a big battle in the South Pacific (2)
  8. INF: More on Ryan Collection
  9. Recreation Groups
 10. Part 2: WWIIHRS NATIONAL BATTLE
 11. Division of Japanese forces bad?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Oct 1993 07:12:46 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: Jimmy Doolittle

The following is from the Air Force News Service

739.  Doolittle buried in Arlington
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
739.  Doolittle buried in Arlington
by TSgt. Sarah L. Hood
Air Force News Service
     WASHINGTON -- Family, friends, comrades and admirers filled the
Fort Myer Chapel in Arlington, Va., Oct. 1 to pay tribute to Gen. James
H. "Jimmy" Doolittle.
     Doolittle died Sept. 27 at the age of 96 and was buried with full
military honors in Arlington National Cemetery, Va.
     While well-known as an aviation pioneer and Medal of Honor
recipient, Doolittle was described by his son as a very modest and
generous man.
     "He never tooted his own horn," retired Col. John Doolittle told
Air Force News Service recently.  "Very seldom did he talk about his
exploits.  He would normally talk more about the people who were with
him and what others had done."
     But his accomplishments were many and vital to the development of
aviation as it is today.
     Master's and doctoral degrees from the Massachusetts Institute of
Technology and a succession of aviation feats, such as record-making
historic and experimental flights, were among the general's many
achievements.
     He became the first to fly across the United States in a day when
he flew the 2,163-mile route from Florida to California with just one
refueling stop in 1922.  Doolittle earned the MacKay Trophy in 1925 for
winning the Schneider Cup Race with an average speed of 232 mph in a
Curtiss Navy racer equipped with pontoons, the fastest a seaplane had
ever flown.
     "Dad said the main thing is to do what you're going to be happy
doing.  It's awfully difficult to try to make a living at something you
don't enjoy," said the colonel.
     He said integrity and honesty were the "keynotes of living"
stressed at home while he was growing up.
     "Dad's philosophy was very good and that was 'we're put on this
earth for a purpose.'  That purpose is to make it, within our
capabilities, a better place in which to live.  He tried to do what was
right, tried to do things you would not be ashamed of doing."
     The elder Doolittle had the vision to recognize what he thought
would be important, his son said.  "He achieved things by, I think they
called it the calculated risk.  He never did anything right off the top
of his head.  It was always well analyzed, well thought out."
     Perhaps best known for organizing the first aerial bombing raid on
Japan, he volunteered to lead the attack of 16 B-25 medium bombers, a
group which came to be known as Doolittle's Raiders.
     While their numbers have dwindled to 38, 22 of the original
raiders reported for duty Oct. 1, saluting smartly and biding a last
farewell to their former commander.
     A fly-by in his honor drew the crowd's attention at the gravesite.
Last to pass the field was a fully restored B-25 Mitchell, lifting the
spirits of the mourners and drawing from them a round of applause.
     In a documentary made several years ago, "Jimmy Doolittle:  An
American Hero," he said there was one way he wished to be remembered --
with the respect of his fellow man.
     Judging by the multitude gathered at his gravesite, his wish was
granted.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Oct 1993 07:17:13 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 11 OCT 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
MONDAY, 11 OCTOBER 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): HQ 311th Fighter-Bomber Group transfers
from Nawadih to Dinjan, India.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 8 B-24's bomb the town areas of Tengchung,
China, and Sadon and Myitkyina, Burma.
  The 75th Fighter Squadron, 23d Fighter Group, transfers from Kunming to
Kweilin, China with P-40's.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): XII Bomber Command
B-25's bomb Garitsa Airfield, Greece and P-38's hit a vessel in the Corfu
harbor on Corfu Island. In Italy, XII Air Support Command and Northwest
African Tactical Bomber Force (NATBF) operations are cancelled or aborted
due to weather, but Royal Air Force (RAF) Desert Air Force (DAF) fighters
hit trains, trucks, and gun positions near Montesilvano and Vasto.
  The 381st and 428th Bombardment Squadrons (Medium), 310th Bombardment
Group (Medium), based at Menzel Temime, Tunisia with B-25's begin operating
from Oudna, Tunisia.
  Detachments of the 512th, 513th and 514th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy),
376th Bombardment Group (Heavy), which have been operating from Bengasi,
Libya with B-24's, return to their base at Enfidaville, Tunisia.
  The 527th and 528th Fighter-Bomber Squadrons, 86th Fighter-Bomber Group,
transfer from Sele Airfield to Serretella Airfield, Italy with A-36's.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, 22 B-24's join 30+ US Navy dive bombers in pounding Kahili
Airfield on Bougainville Island and the nearby area. Hits are scored on the
airstrip, fuel dumps, supply areas, gun positions, bridges between Rangu
and Jakohina, barges at the mouth of the Uguima River, and several other
targets. The B-24's and the US Navy and AAF fighters covering the attack
claim 12 Japanese airplanes downed.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea,
B-24's attack the towns of Manokwari, Bira, and Fak Fak and score hits on a
small vessel at Fak Fak. During the night of 11/12 Oct, B-25's bomb Cape
Chater Airfield and Lautem on Timor Island.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
 Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Oct 1993 07:31:38 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: 350th Fighter Group

On Friday, Bill Thacker asked about the 350th Fighter Group of the
USAAF during WWII.  A brief check of my files on Friday night
revealed the following.


First, the "normal" organizational structure of the USAAF in WWII from
top to bottom was:

  Air Force
  Command
  Wing
  Group
  Squadron

There was a 350th Fighter Group that served in the Mediterranean
Theater of Operations from Jan 43 to Jul 45.  However, there was no
345th Wing in the entire USAAF during WWII however, there was a 345th
Fighter Squadron which was assigned to the group.  According to the
information I have, the 350th was assigned to the following wings:

  63d Fighter Wing, 1943-44
  62d Fighter Wing, 1944-45

Anyway, this is what I found out.

The 350th Fighter Group was activated by the Eighth Air Force at
Bushey Hall, England on 1 Oct 42.  The group's three squadrons, the
345th, 346th and 347th Fighter Squadrons, were activated at the
same time.  The air echelons of all four units were in England; the
ground echelons were at Harding Field, Baton Rouge, Louisiana and
remained there until departing for North Africa on 2 Nov 42.
Sometime in Oct, Group HQ and the 345th moved to Duxford, England;
the 346th moved to Coltishall, England; and the 347th to Snailwell,
England.  The 350th and 81st Fighter Groups were to be equipped
with Bell P-39 Airacobras for service with the Twelfth Air Force in
Northwest Africa.  Their aircraft, diverted from a Soviet
consignment, were of the P-39D-1-BE and P-400 vintage, types
currently proving inferior aagainst the Japanese in the Solomon
Islands.  (The P-400 was the export version of the P-39 for the RAF
that the RAF had rejected and consigned to the Soviet Union.)  The
VIII Air Force Service Command, without spare parts or mechanics
familiar with the aircraft, lagged far behind the schedule for the
assembly and modification of the aircraft which were in crates.
Because of this delay, pilot training suffered because there were
insufficient aircraft.

The ground echelons of the four units arrived At Casablanca on 19
Nov 42 but the air echelons were still in England.  The 347th moved
to Kings Cliffe, England on 8 Dec 42 and continued assemblying and
training.  In early Jan 43, 62 P-39's with belly tanks left England
for the 1200 mile flight to Port Lyautey, French Morocco.  The
flight took 7 hours.  One aircraft landed in Spain, two disappeared
without a trace, ten were forced down in Portugal and 49 landed at
Oujda, French Morocco.  The group began flying combat missions in
in Jan 43 and during the North African campaign moved to Algeria
in Feb 43 and remained there until Nov 43.  When the Northwest
African Air Force, a unified USAAF/RAF command, was formed on 18
Feb 43, the 350th was assigned to the Northwest African Coastal Air
Force (NACAF) which was charged with the air defense of North Africa,
air-sea reconnaissance, antisubmarine operations, protection of
Allied convoys and destruction of enemy convoys.  The 350th were
used for convoy escort, patrol and scrambles, but their P-39's
could not intercept the high-flying Axis reconnaissance aircraft.
To rectify this situation, two P-38's were assigned to each squadron
in mid-May 43.  By the end of May, the 347th had three P-38's and
26 P-39's.  On 19 Jun 43, Lt. Kitt McMaster of the 347th took off
in a P-38 after a Ju 88 recon aircraft over Algiers, caught it at
30,000 feet, and shot it down.  This was the first victory for the
squadron in their 5 months in North Africa.  By the end of 1943,
the 347th had six confirmed kills, all in P-38's.

During the invasion of Sicily in Jul 43, NACAF was responsible to
provide air protection over the assault convoys from the time they
left the normal routes across the Mediterranean up to last light of
D-1.  On and after D-Day, NACAF would protect shipping to within 40
miles of the beaches.  At this time, HQ 350th Group and 346th Squadron
were at Maison Blance, Algeria, the 345th was at Bone, Algeria and the
347th was at Djidjelli, Algeria.  During the period 17 Jul-17 Aug,
the group flew 620 operational missions covering ports and convoys. The
group continued air defense duties in Algeria during the summer and
fall of 1943.

In the fall of 1943, the 350th, still equipped with P-39's, moved to
Sardinia and Corsica.  The 350th, 345th and 346th went to Sardinia on
5 Nov, 18 Nov and 28 Oct respectively.  The 347th remained in
Algeria and moved to Corsica on 6 Dec 43.  On 26 Nov 43, the enemy
launched an attack in Bougie Bay, Algeria.  Two P-39's of the 347th
probably destroyed one He 177 and damaged another.

In Feb 44, the 350th moved to Corsica; the 345th remained based in
Saridina but operated from Corsica during Feb and Mar; the 346th
remained in Sardinia and send a detachment to Tunisia during Feb-Jun 44;
and the 347th, based in Corsica, began operating from Italy during
Feb-Mar 44.  The 350th had modified their P-39's so they could
undertake full combat operations during Operation Strangle, the air
operation to interdict the movement of enemy supplies in Italy.  By this
time, the group was operating well-worn P-39N's and with extra wing
tanks (giving them 120 gallons of fuel), they had been equipped to
carry one 500-pound or one 1,000-pound bomb.  On 6 Apr 44, the 350th
flew ten missions, comprising 75 sorties, and in the face of intense AA
fire destroyed one highway and two rail bridges, two air warning
installations, one barracks building and two trucks while inflicting
many casualties on enemy personnel and damaging other structures and
vehicles.  One flight of six P-39's was dive bombing bridges in the
Grosseto-Pisa area when it was jumped by some ten Bf 109s and Fw 190s.
Ten top cover P-39's engaged the German fighters and managed to shoot
down five and damage two.  For this action on 6 Apr, the group and all
three squadrons were awarded a Distinguished Unit Citation (DUC).

In the summer of 1944, the group covered the Allied landings on the
island of Elba. Starting in Jun, the four units transferred to Italy;
the 350th to Tarquinia on 8 Sep; the 345th to Pomigliano on 1 Jun and
Tarquinia on 25 Jun; the 346th to Pomigliano on 25 Jun with a
detachment operating from Piombino 7 Jul-24 Aug; and the 347th to
Tarquinia on 15 Sep.  AND FINALLY, the group transitioned from P-39's
to Republic P-47 Thunderbolts in Aug-Sep 44.

The group remained based in Italy until Jul 45 providing close air
support for ground troops.  The group returned to the U.S. in
Jul-Aug 45 and was inactivated on 7 Nov 45.

On 24 May 46, the 350th Fighter Group was redesignated the 112th Fighter
Group and the 345th Fighter Squadron was redesignated the 146th Fighter
Squadron (Single Engine) and both were allotted to the Pennsylvania Air
National Guard.  The 146th was extended federal recognition on 18 Jun
48; the 112th on 22 Apr 49.  Since that date the units have been based
at the Greater Pittsburgh Airport and have never been called to active
duty.  Its initial mission aircraft were F-47N Thunderbolts.  On 1 Nov
50, the 146th became the 146th Fighter-Bomber Squadron and in May 51,
converted to North American F-51H Mustangs.  On 1 Oct 52, the squadron
was redesignated the 146th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron with a mission
of providing air defense for the eastern U.S. but was again designated
a fighter-bomber unit on 1 Dec 52.  In Jun 54, four North American
F-86A's were assigned but the conversion from F-51H's to F-86A's was
soon cancelled.  The squadron converted to Republic F-84F Thunderstreaks
in Oct 54 and was redesignaed the 146th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron on
1 Jul 55.  In Dec 57, it converted to the all-weather North American
F-86L Sabre; to the Convair F-102A Delta Dagger in Nov 60; and to the
LTV A-7D Corsair II in Apr 75 becoming the 146th Tactical Fighter
Squadron on 12 Apr 75. In the summer of 1991, the squadron began
transitioning to the Boeing KC-135E Stratotanker becoming the 146th Air
Refuelling Squadron on 16 Oct 91.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Oct 1993 07:00:24 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN: Frank Wisner and OSS

Richard,

I will post some info for you this afternoon on Frank Wisner.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Oct 1993 07:26:10 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: WWII 4th Armored Division (fwd)

Dear Mr. Jewell,

Thanks very much for your offer to post my inquiry to WWII-L.  Please
forward the following message to the list:

        My father, a former member of the 10th Armored Infantry Battalion of
the 4th Armored Division, is looking for information on the history of
the division during World War II.  He is particularly interested in the route
of the battalion through France, and the names of any other members of the
battalion who were with him there in 1944.  He also asked me to inquire
whether the 4th Armored Association is still in existence and, if so, how
to contact it.

        We would be very grateful for any help.  Please respond directly
to me by e-mail at ijkern@netcom.com.

        Thanks very much for your help.

        Iver Kern
        <ijkern@netcom.com>


>

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 10 Oct 1993 20:40:47 CST
From:    "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer,
         Tim A." <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Part 1: WWIIHRS NATIONAL BATTLE

I returned from the 1993 WWIIHRS National Battle with all the signs of a
good event---hands torn up from sticker bushes, and sore back and the
beginnings of a cold.  Overall it was a good event, and lived up to my
expectatation despite several difficulties that had to be overcome.

It was attended by approx. 250 German and 200 Allied reenactors.  I met
people from Florida, and rode in a Kubelwagen that traveled 40 hours
from Los Angeles to Camp Atterbury to participate.

The event had the most impressive number and variety of any vehicles
I've seen at a reenactment.  The Allies had 7 jeep, a Dodge 3/4 ton
Weapons Carrier, a Weasel, a unWWII but very useful 2 1/2 ton truck, a
tracked tank minus the turret that name escapes me, and 2 Stuart tanks.
The German side was the best ever assembled, and included 4 Kubelwagens,
5 motorcyclew with sidecars, 1 75mm PAK cannon (complete
reproduction--unbelievable and well done), 3 trucks, 2 Sdkz 222 armored
cars (both reproductions), and the 11th Panzer's Hetzer, nicknamed Geli.

The weekend weather was very European.  The temperatures ranged from
highs in the low 50's to night time lows of the mid 30's.  Saturday
afternoon had a temperature drop of about 15 degrees.  It rained on and
off from about 11pm on Friday night until about the time the troops
returned from the field, 5pm on Saturday.

Friday kicked off with the unit leader's meeting, which became a roller
coaster.  The event coordinator for the past two years who coordinated
with the Camp Atterbury personnel did not pass significant information
to the participants, or anyone else.  When the 1993 event coordinators
arrived the Army had a laundry list of problems from the previous year
which all came as a suprise to all reenactors involved.  The rules were
not any different than any other Army post, however we had never been in
formed of them by the reenactor in charge (who is no longer permitted to
come to any WWII event for a number of reasons) in 1991 and 1992.  It
seemed to most in the units that the Army was changing the rules,
however once everyone understood what was occuring, everyone adjusted
and we went forth.

The Sunday morning National HRS meeting was another rollercoaster, as
they always tend to be.  Most of it surrounded the member who planned
the previous events, and created many problems for the WWIIHRS that will
take a while to all be resolved.  Other topics of discussion included
enforcement of authenticity standards using unit commanders and peer
pressure, units who did not take responsibility for their barracks
cleaning and how that should be handled in the future, and general
housekeeping business like Secretary's report, Treasurer's report, Allie
d and Axis representatives reports about authenticity standards, and
safety concerns.  The meeting concluded with the traditional awarding of
the National Battle Streamers to all units involved.

The vendor's show was quite interesting this year.  There were a pretty
good collection of vendors, selling uniforms, accoutrements, books, and
odds and ends.  The most interesting table I saw was a gentleman selling
Russian equipment and uniforms at reasonable prices.  He made a trip to
Russia and set up suppliers there.  The most interesting and unusual
thing I saw was a shield that looked like, at least to me, that came off
the top of a STUG III or IV that protected the machine gunner.  It was
picked in a backyard of a farmer in either Leningrad or Stalingrad (I
can't remember).  I would probably have paid closer attention, except he
was asking $800 for it.  It was all there but very rusty and probably
rated as a relic.  It was still there when the show closed this morning.

I will send a second post tommorrow that covers the tactical scenario,
and how it worked.

Tim, Obergefreiter, 11th Panzer Div, WWIIHRS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Oct 1993 09:23:19 GMT+800
From:    Joseph Boeke <BOEKE@BPDEV.UADV.UCI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Nimitz's hopes for a big battle in the South Pacific

I came to this discussion a little late, but I would like to point
out a couple of things (I apologize if this ground has already been
covered).

Lou Coatney typed:

>      Midway offered the bigger -- 4 IJN fleet carriers -- victory
> opportunity without (with hindsight!) the weather/luck factor.

It must also be remembered that the bulk IJN Combined Fleet was
enroute or just arriving from Nagumo's Indian Ocean raids to the Home
Islands when the Doolittle raiders struck Tokyo et.al.  In April '42
their next operation was far from obvious...

The IJN & IJA had actually beaten their own time table for the
conquest of the Malay Barrier and SE Asia (although the resistance in
the Philppines lasted longer than expected).  They were unpreparred
for the "next phase" of the conflict and the old friction between the
IJN & IJA began to emerge.  Roughly speaking, they had three
operations which were vying for contention:

    1) Continue to advance into the Indian Ocean/Burmese Theater and
       attempt to link up with the German & Italian forces in Africa.
    2) Complete the conquest of New Guinea and begin the investment
       of Austrailia (including the occupation of the Naru Islands,
       American Samoa, Gualdalcanal, Espiritu Santo & New Caledonia).
    3) An advance in the Central Pacific (leading towards Pearl
       Harbor).

Yamamoto knew that the USN while injured, was far from being
destroyed (despite the universally quick success that the IJN & IJA
were enjoying against the Allies).  So he favored #3 (the idea to
bring the US fleet carriers to battle and destroy them was an add on
as a result of the Doolittle raid).

The IJA favored operations into the Indian Ocean.  Because
Yamamoto did not believe that the Navy could support IJA operations
in India (and defend the newly established perimeter against the
USN) the South Pacific campaign became the comprimise solution.

Therefore, the Doolittle raid besides being a "morale boost" focused
the IJN on the need for a decisive battle with the remnants of the
USN.  In essence it set the stage for Midway, which probably wouldn't
have happened in June 1942 if it wasn't for Doolittle's raid.

Terry Moore typed:

> It must not be forgotten that the Japanese had a blind sight to their
> planning. They were convinced that their codes were unbreakable, that
> the Americans would react according to Japanese expectations, and
> that their occupation of Midway would not be discerned from the
> Japanese attempt to occupy Kiska and Attu. It was this thinking that
> led to their downfall.

While all of these factors are true, I think that the USN was still
extremely lucky at Midway.  They were still out-numbered in all the
quantitative aspects of the battle.  Not only were they using
inferior equipment (look at the torpedos & aircraft specs) but the
relative qualities of the crews (both aviators & sailors alike) was
below that of the IJN.

All in all, Yamamoto had every reason to be confident of success
(even if he knew his codes had been broken).

The difference in the battle was in leadership at all levels.  At the
tactical level, the VT squadrons pushed on despite the odds.  All of
the squadron commanders (with the notable exception of the Hornet's
VB, VS & VF squadrons) realized that Nagumo's TF turned NW away from
Midway after the initial strike.  At the operation level, Fletcher &
Spruance (especially the later) made tough decisions, like launching
the initial strike at **extreme** range, which paid off for them.
Finally, at the strategic level, Nimitz had the confidence to rely on
his staff (especially the SigInt aspects) and stand up to the brass
in Washington, D.C.

On the Japanese side, the most telling "leadership error" was
Nagumo's not Yamamoto's.  Nagumo's indecision on how to arm the
second strike cost him the battle & maybe Japan the war.  I remember
going through my U.S. Army training.  The thing that the TAC officers
drummed into my head was "make a decision -- any decision, just make
it."  It is better to make an incorrect decision and rectify it
later, than to make no decision an get caught with your shorts down...

John Lundstrom wrote:

>         If you would have preferred fighting with the odds Fletcher and
> Spruance faced in June at Midway than what Halsey with four carriers
> would have enjoyed in early May in the Coral Sea, then my hat is off
> to you. Your more stable air front at Midway slipped down over the island
> on 10 June and completely socked the place in; a couple of planes were
> lost due to bad weather.

While I agree that the four carriers at Coral Sea would have given
the USN an advantage (maybe even sinking both the Shokaku & Zuikaku),
the edge wouldn't have been as large as we have been led to believe
(IMHO).  Remember that until Midway all of the US carriers were
flying SBD-2/3s and F4F-2s  neither of these planes had self-sealing
fuel tanks & they didn't have the better engines or longer ranges of
the next models down the line.

So, you say big deal right?  Well, remember that the Yorktown &
Lexington aircrews were pretty chopped up from the Coral Sea battle
(not as bad as the Japanese aircrews), had Halsey's aircrews also
been involved they probably would have been pretty beat up as well
(wasn't the Yorktown's airgroup made up of the survivors of both the
+Lex's and her own airgroup -- I' can't remember).

Given the fact that many of the "First Team" were Naval Reservists,
with little combat experience, the loss of some of the Enetrprise &
Hornets aircrews may have made a big difference at Midway.

> I recommend seeing my book The First Team and the Guadalcanal
> Campaign, which the Naval Institute is releasing next month.

It is good to see the Guadalcanal book being released (I really
enjoyed _The First Team_, BTW -- an excellent book).  Do you have
another in the works?

- Joe


+====================================================================+
| Joseph R. Boeke                  |                                 |
| Research Coordinator             | "Towering genius disdains a     |
| University of California, Irvine |  beaten path, it seeks regions  |
| Telephone:  (714) 856-8668       |  hitherto unexplored."          |
| FAX:        (714) 856-8666       |                                 |
| Internet:       JRBOEKE@uci.edu  |          -- Abraham Lincoln     |
| America Online: JRBOEKE@aol.com  |                                 |
+====================================================================+

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Oct 1993 13:28:13 EDT
From:    Doug McCabe <mccabe@OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: INF: More on Ryan Collection

                   Ohio University Electronic Communication


   Date:  11-Oct-1993 01:28pm EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject:  INF: More on Ryan Collection


    I have just received permission to write a new collection development
    statement for supplements to the Cornelius Ryan Collection.  For the
    most part the Collection has been static since we received it a few
    years after Ryan died in 1974.  Obviously, with the 50th anniversary of
    OVERLORD, MARKET-GARDEN, and the last operations in the ETO coming up,
    this is a timely topic.  Our intention is to revive and keep active the
    Collection to increase researcher interest and (selfservingly) to
    broaden the public awareness of the Collection, this archives, and Ohio
    University.

    The Ryan Collection now consists of his complete research materials and
    personal library collection revolving around his books _The Longest
    Day_, _A Bridge Too Far_, and _The Last Battle_.  He also wrote
    numerous articles about the early American space program through
    contacts with von Braun and co.

    In thinking about what we would like to do here, I have come up with a
    preliminary list of collection focus priorities:

    1.   Published and unpublished materials, in any language, specifically
    related to the topics related to the three battles upon which his books
    focus.  These materials include manuscripts, diaries, letters,
    documents, photographs, books, pamphlets, etc.  We are not interested
    in memorabelia.

    2.   The same kinds of materials relating to ETO operations, primarily
    from Normandy to Germany.

    3.   The same kinds of materials relating to foreign and war
    correspondents, primarily in the ETO.  (Ryan was a correspondent who
    spent most of his time with Patton's 3rd Army although he did fly over
    the beaches on D-Day and spent a little time in the PTO at the very
    tail end of the war.)

    4.   The same kinds of materials relating to concepts of the American
    space program during its formative years.

    As a University Archives, we do not have lots of funds for such
    projects and, of course, would prefer to collect materials through
    gifts and donations.  We are also obligated to make our collections
    available to the general public (the whole idea anyway if we want folks
    to remember their history).  There are, however, funds available
    through grants and such, but we usually have to specify exactly what it
    is we want to buy before we go for the money.

    So here comes the part where you all can help.  First, please critique
    this collection strategy: does it make sense?  any additions or
    deletions?  Second, if you know of materials we might seek out please
    let me know with as much information as you can supply.

    I don't suppose this needs to be said to this List, but I'll say it
    anyway.  If we don't try to collect these things now while people are
    thinking about it, we risk losing valuable archival materials of
    benefit to future generations.  Let's get this stuff into reputable
    repositories now, before it's too late!

    Doug McCabe
    mccabe@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu



Received:  11-Oct-1993 01:28pm

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Oct 1993 13:34:58 EDT
From:    Doug McCabe <mccabe@OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Recreation Groups

                   Ohio University Electronic Communication


   Date:  11-Oct-1993 01:28pm EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject:  Re: Recreation Groups


    Has anyone heard of the group "Keep 'em Rollin'," a Dutch organization
    which has a collection of restored American 82nd and 101st Airborne
    Jeeps and other vehicles?  I hear they plan to parade 400-500 of these
    vehicles for the 50th anniversary of MARKET-GARDEN and run up the
    "Hell's Highway" corridor from the Belgium border to Nijmegen on
    September 17, 1994.  Anyone know more about this group?

    Doug McCabe
    mccabe@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu



Received:  11-Oct-1993 01:34pm

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Oct 1993 18:08:21 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@NAT2.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: Nimitz's hopes for a big battle in the South Pacific

On Mon, 11 Oct 1993, Joseph Boeke wrote:

> Terry Moore typed:
>
> > It must not be forgotten that the Japanese had a blind sight to their
> > planning. They were convinced that their codes were unbreakable, that
> > the Americans would react according to Japanese expectations, and
> > that their occupation of Midway would not be discerned from the
> > Japanese attempt to occupy Kiska and Attu. It was this thinking that
> > led to their downfall.

...

> On the Japanese side, the most telling "leadership error" was
> Nagumo's not Yamamoto's.  Nagumo's indecision on how to arm the
> second strike cost him the battle & maybe Japan the war.  I remember
> going through my U.S. Army training.  The thing that the TAC officers
> drummed into my head was "make a decision -- any decision, just make
> it."  It is better to make an incorrect decision and rectify it
> later, than to make no decision an get caught with your shorts down...

...

Well, Nagumo made an error. But Yamamoto and his staff made some errors too.
With hindsight, we can say that the whole Japanese planning for Midway was
bad.

The first error was dividing their fleet in small parts: the Attu & Kiska
strike force, a waste of resources; the traditional battleship & cruiser
fleet, that did not get an opportunity to enter combat; and the troop
transport fleet. It is clear that in this scheme, the carrier units were
secondary forces with several secondary tasks (creating a diversion,
attracting the US fleet, and soften up Midway) that reduced their
effectiviness and made their position known to the US.  On the other hand,
the battleship force was kept ready and intact, presumably to destroy the US
fleet if it appeared. A strange concept, because Yamamoto knew very well how
vulnerable his ships would be without air cover -- it is difficult to imagine
how he intended to use them.

If the IJN had been more up-to-date (or ahead of their time) in their
thinking, they would have cancelled the Attu & Kiska strike, added the small
carriers to their battleships as additional air cover, and used _this_ force
for the secondary task of supporting landings on Midway. Then the large
carriers would have been kept ready in the background to finish off the US
fleet.

The second error was the neglect of adequate reconaissance. An attempt to get
air coverage of Pearl Harbour failed, the submarine lookouts were too late,
and reconaissance from the carrier fleet was careless. By attacking Midway
the IJN carriers made their presence known, while they did not know were the
US fleet was. That was stupid, because it offered the US fleet the
initiative. Of course the situation was even worse, because the Japanese
codes had been broken.

Emmanuel

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Oct 1993 20:15:44 CST
From:    "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer,
         Tim A." <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Part 2: WWIIHRS NATIONAL BATTLE

The tank that I couldn't remember the name of in the prebious report was
the Locust.

The battle scenario for the National Battle was effected greatly by the
Army's rules and limited the options available.  They left the armor
limited to the three main roads, unlike the planned scenario, which
would have allowed a realistic armor on armor battle in tank country,
versus the woods we used.

The training area given for the event consisted of a big box,
approximately 7km by 5km.  The northern 2/3 of the terrain was rolling
hills, and heavily wooded, while the southern end was flat.  The
southern flat area was either off limits due to it being an impact area
in one corner, and restrictions in the rest of the available southern
end placed upon the armor.  Three main roads lined the area.  Two
running parallel N-S, and one joining both at the southern tip to form a
U.  Four E-W roads connected the main roads, however these were not
gravel surfaced, and were very muddy due to the rain.

The overall scenario coordinator tried to keep the scenario simple so
both sides would run into each other quickly and accross the entire
front.  He briefed to both sides the opposite side's positions just to
make sure we ran into each other.  The scenario was simple---German's to
the North, Allies to the South.  Allies attack first, and German's
counterattack and the whole thing is off and running.  The plan was
simple and effective.  This plan was used in lieu of other plans used in
the past that caused people to go on wild goose chases, and march around
all day not making contact.  Nobody like to drive 8 hours and not fire a
shot!

The only fly in the ointment was the British Airborne were to be
droppedto the east of the eastern main N-S road (dropped off is a better
description).  From there they were to fight their was to link up with a
llied lines and join the effort.

The scenario went much as planned, with the allies probing up both
roads, with the armor situated on the western road.  By noon, the battle
had broken loose on the western road.  Although I missed it, an armor on
armor clash occured involving the two Stuarts vs the Hetzer and the 75mm
PAK.  By 2pm, most everyone was situated on this road.  Several attacks
and counterattacks had occurred with no side gaining any true advantage.
It was decided at about 2:30 to have the Germans do an attack to push
the allies down the road into the loading area at the end of the battle.
The allies were to conduct a fighting withdrawl.  This scenario lasted
up until about 4:30, with everyone ending up in a big gaggle at the
loading area, exactly as planned to transport people from the field.

My personal experience of the day went like this.  I was moved to the
field in Kubelwagen from 1st SS LAH.  We were dropped off on the eastern
road.  We were order to patrol the road to the northern gate of the
training area to counter the Brit airborne drop.  We conducted the 5km
patrolto the gate supported by a Sdkz 222 armored car.  About 15 of us
were on the patrol.  On the way back, a hellacious firefight broke out
to our front.  We discovered the Brit airborn had arrived, and the rest
of the unit was dealing with them.  That fight ensued for about a half
hour, before ending.  We then took a short break, and were ordered to
find our Hetzer, and support it.

We moved out to the west to reach the western road.  The area is
dominated by a large hill, which we skirted the edge.  Not knowing where
the Hetzer would be, we marched cross country.  We ended up in a huge pa
tch of thorns.  When we emerged we were not only in the allied rear, but
had the allied command group eating lunch right in front of us.  We set
up an ambush, and executed it, causing a lot of confusion in the allied
rear.  After that we marched to join our tank.  We then joined in a push
up the road, which survived about 1km and stalled.

This was the point were the allied withdrawl to the pick-up location sta
rted.  A squad of us 11th Panzer types worked the west side of the road
on the far flank.  We ended up overshooting our forces and ended up in t
he allied rear again.  We heard the whining sound and track noises.  We
moved up close enough to get a grenade toss at the tracks of a Stuart,

which launched an infantry assualt against us that destroyed the squad.
We waited in this position, and joined the Hetzer when she moved forward
and supported her until we reached the end of the road, the pick-up poin
t.

Overall, I thought it was a good event, and as the WWIIHRS President sai
d at the National meeting--being politically correct--all units destroye
d all other units, and all objectives were taken on both sides.  He was
joking at the way reenactors like to brag about their day's achievements
.  We all knew that with real ammo, the National meeting would have been
an empty room.

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Oct 1993 21:27:19 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Division of Japanese forces bad?

One of the most common criticisms of the Japanese conduct of the Battle
  of Midway is that

     1. Their plan was to complex and narrowly timed, and
     2. They split their forces before knowing exactly where their
       enemy was or would be -- an old military bogey.

Maybe.  On the other hand, the Japanese nearly annihilated our Leyte
  invasion force with exactly such a complicated, carefully timed plan.

Knowing Halsey's aggressive personality, they played him perfectly --
  faking him out of the main/battleline action completely.  If Kurita
  hadn't lost his nerve at the critical moment, our losses could have
  been disastrous, and -- with the shock of Kamikazes -- we might have
  reconsidered our "unconditional surrender" campaign against the
  Japanese islands proper.

Comments?  John?  Con?

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 10 Oct 1993 to 11 Oct 1993
*************************************************

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Status: O

There are 14 messages totalling 478 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. USAAF   10 Oct 43 (2)
  2. SdKfz. 234 Puma (3)
  3. Rommel's vehicle
  4. USAAF 12 OCT 43
  5. Division of Japanese forces bad?
  6. Q: German medal, 1939 (2)
  7. A minor correction re:  F4Fs at Coral Sea/Midway
  8. Division of Japanese forces at Leyte worked
  9. Recreation Groups
 10. <No subject given>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Oct 1993 16:35:49 -0400
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: Re: USAAF   10 Oct 43

Additional points to note about the USAAF's 8th AF mission #114,
flown on Sunday, 10 October 1943:

This mission was the 8th's first deliberate targeting of German
civilians.  The target was Munster, and the central aiming point
was the front steps of the Munster Cathedral.  The initial plans
called for the first bombs to hit at 12:00 noon.  The plans were
altered, changing the time to 3:00 PM, saving many lives.  For
an eyewitness account, read Capt. Ellis Scripture's entry in the
book "B-17s Over Berlin:  Personal Stories from the 95th BG(H)",
edited by Ian L. Hawkins.  Capt. Scripture was the lead navigator
for the 95th BG for the mission.  Thirty B-17s were lost, over
10 percent of the attacking force.



Dennis E. Sparks
SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Oct 1993 11:56:33 MET
From:    Ireneusz Jakobik <SCUD@PLSZUS11.BITNET>
Subject: SdKfz. 234 Puma

I'd like to know something more about German SdKfz. 234 Puma vehicle,
especially about its use in Africa (and what SdKfz means). I'm also
looking for photos of Rommel's SdKfz. 259/1 Grief, drawings and photos
of SdKfz 223 interior (it's a 4 wheeled armoured radio vehicle), and photos
of LVTP7A1 interior (modern US Marines infantry vehicle. It has nothing to
do with World War Two - sorry). If you can help me, please contact me
directly, my net address is SCUD@PLSZUS11.BITNET. Thanks.
-Irek.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Oct 1993 09:42:51 MET
From:    Ireneusz Jakobik <SCUD@PLSZUS11.BITNET>
Subject: Rommel's vehicle

I made a mistake in my mail on Friday. Rommel's vehicle 'Grief' was an
SdKfz. 250/3. Sorry.
-Irek.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Oct 1993 07:17:35 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 12 OCT 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
TUESDAY, 12 OCTOBER 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CARIBBEAN (Sixth Air Force): The detachments of the 10th and 35th
Bombardment Squadrons (Medium), 25th Bombardment Group (Medium), that have
been operating from Port of Spain, Trinidad with B-25's since Aug 43 return
to their base at Edinburgh Field, Trinidad and Vernam Field, Jamaica
respectively.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 5 B-24's bomb the warehouse area and
railroad yards at Myitkyina, Burma.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): The 359th Fighter Squadron,
356th Fighter Group, transfers from Goxhill to Martlesham, England with
P-47's. The squadron will fly it's first combat mission on 15 Oct.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): XII Bomber Command
operations are canceled by weather. In Italy, the XII Air Support Command
and other Northwest African Tactical Air Force (NATAF) elements [Northwest
African Tactical Bomber Force (NATBF) and Royal Air Force (RAF) Desert Air
Force (DAF)] operate on a reduced scale, hitting road junctions at Vasto
and Fossacesia, Aquino Airfield, motor transport on the Itri-Pico road and
on a road N of Rome in the Bolsena and Capranica areas, roads near
Tarquinia, rail facilities at Cisterna di Latina, trains between Pescara
and Benedello, and guns and troops near Cercemaggiore.
  HQ 81st Fighter Group and it's 91st Fighter Squadron transfer from Sidi
Ahmed, Tunisia to Castelvetrano, Sicily with P-39's.
  HQ 86th Fighter-Bomber Group and it's 526th Fighter-Bomber Squadron, transfer
from Sele Airfield to Serretella Airfield, Italy with A-36's.
  The 86th Bombardment Squadron (Light), 47th Bombardment Group (Light),
transfers from Grottaglie to Vincenzo Airfield, Italy with A-20's.
  The detachment of the 94th Fighter Squadron, 1st Fighter Group, that has
been operating from Gambut, Libya with P-38's since 4 Oct, returns to it's
base at Mateur, Tunisia.
  The detachment of the 515th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 376th Bombardment
Group (Heavy), at Bengasi, Libya with B-24's since 1 Oct, returns to it's
base at Enfidaville, Tunisia.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, 2 B-25's skip-bomb 2 small vessels in Matchin Bay on Bougainville
Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): The Allied Air
Force begins a major air offensive against Rabaul on New Britain Island in
the Bismarck Archipelago with the aim of isolating and neutralizing it.
Almost 350 B-24's, B-25's, P-38's, and Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF)
airplanes pound the town, harbor, and airfields in the area; 50+ Japanese
aircraft are destroyed, 3 ships are sunk and several damaged, and several
small harbor craft are sunk. B-25's fly small strikes against targets on
Timor Island and other areas of the Netherlands East Indies.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
 Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Oct 1993 07:09:21 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: SdKfz. 234 Puma

Irek,

I will locate the info for you. I used to know the designation SDkfz.
I will get that for you too. Kfz stands for Kraftfahrzeug or vehicle.

Will be in touch.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Oct 1993 09:04:14 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <kc5318@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: USAAF   10 Oct 43

>Additional points to note about the USAAF's 8th AF mission #114,
>flown on Sunday, 10 October 1943:
>
>This mission was the 8th's first deliberate targeting of German
>civilians.  The target was Munster, and the central aiming point
>was the front steps of the Munster Cathedral.  The initial plans
>called for the first bombs to hit at 12:00 noon.  The plans were
>altered, changing the time to 3:00 PM, saving many lives.  For
>an eyewitness account, read Capt. Ellis Scripture's entry in the
>book "B-17s Over Berlin:  Personal Stories from the 95th BG(H)",
>edited by Ian L. Hawkins.  Capt. Scripture was the lead navigator
>for the 95th BG for the mission.  Thirty B-17s were lost, over
>10 percent of the attacking force.
>
>
>
>Dennis E. Sparks
>SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU
>Lexington, Kentucky


Some more info on Dennis's points: The instigator of this particular mission
was one Curtis LeMay, the most innovative air commander of WWII, who was
either trying to evade intense air defenses or just experimenting with new
bombing techniques.  AAF raids such as this remained the exception in Europe,
but LeMay would finally perfect his techniques against Japan.

                                                   LTC Con Crane
                                                   USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Oct 1993 17:09:29 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@NAT2.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: Division of Japanese forces bad?

On Mon, 11 Oct 1993, Lou Coatney wrote:

> Maybe.  On the other hand, the Japanese nearly annihilated our Leyte
>   invasion force with exactly such a complicated, carefully timed plan.

Maybe. On the other hand, the Japanese plan amounted to a suicide mission
for the IJN fleet, a certain one for the carriers and a probable one for
the battleships. And their time schedule collapsed almost immediately,
because Osawa's carrier unit was the last to be found by the US fleet, and
not, as intended, the first.

Did this plan work? Of the three fleet units attacking the invaison fleet,
one was destroyed and one turned back, without doing much damage. Kurita
was offered an opportunity to hit, yes. But this was more due to the
foolhardiness of Tokio and the errors of Halsey than to the Japanese plan.
Without the first, Kurita would have turned back with the remains of his
unit. Without the second, he wouldn't have had the opportunity.

> Knowing Halsey's aggressive personality, they played him perfectly --
>   faking him out of the main/battleline action completely.

I wouldn't call this 'perfect play'. Sounds more like a desperate gamble to
me. If Halsey had merely taken the time to inform the invasion fleet of
his departure, or had been wise enough not to take _all_ his forces with
him, things would have been very different.

>   If Kurita
>   hadn't lost his nerve at the critical moment, our losses could have
>   been disastrous, and -- with the shock of Kamikazes -- we might have
>   reconsidered our "unconditional surrender" campaign against the
>   Japanese islands proper.

On the other hand --- Japanese plan accepted the likely destruction of
most of its fleet, and therefore the inevitable loss of the war, in order
to win just one battle. So it tacitly admitted that the war had already
been lost.

Emmanuel

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Oct 1993 15:43:58 -0500
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Q: German medal, 1939

Reposted from soc.history, please reply to address at end of file:
(Or tell us and I'll forward.)

>One of my students has come into the possession of a German
>military decoration. He would like more information about it.
>He would also like to know whether it has any sale value. I would
>be grateful if anyone out there with some knowledge about medals
>and military decorations can be of assistance.
>
>The medal is of brass; it is in the form of a Maltese cross,
>around 2" in height. A pair of swords (hilts at the 5 o'clock and
>7 o'clock positions) intersect the cross. At the centre is a
>wreath; on one side of the medal at the centre of the wreath
>there is a swastika, while on the other side the year "1939"
>appears in the centre. A brass ring passes through an eyelet at
>the top of the medal; the number "100" is stamped in almost
>microscopic numerals on this ring. The ribbon accompanying the
>medal no longer is attached. The ribbon is black with red edging;
>a thin white edge separate red and black.
>
>Thanks in advance for any information.
>
>Olaf Janzen                      Tel: (709) 637-6282
>Department of History            FAX: (709) 639-8125
>Sir Wilfred Grenfell College     e-mail: olaf@kean.ucs.mun.ca
>Corner Brook, Newfoundland
>Canada
>A2H 6P9


--
JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Oct 1993 17:07:15 -0230
From:    OLAF <olaf@KEAN.UCS.MUN.CA>
Subject: Q: German medal, 1939

One of my students has come into the possession of a German
military decoration. He would like more information about it.
He would also like to know whether it has any sale value. I would
be grateful if anyone out there with some knowledge about medals
and military decorations can be of assistance.

The medal is of brass; it is in the form of a Maltese cross,
around 2" in height. A pair of swords (hilts at the 5 o'clock and
7 o'clock positions) intersect the cross. At the centre is a
wreath; on one side of the medal at the centre of the wreath
there is a swastika, while on the other side the year "1939"
appears in the centre. A brass ring passes through an eyelet at
the top of the medal; the number "100" is stamped in almost
microscopic numerals on this ring. The ribbon accompanying the
medal no longer is attached. The ribbon is black with red edging;
a thin white edge separate red and black.

Thanks in advance for any information.

Olaf Janzen                      Tel: (709) 637-6282
Department of History            FAX: (709) 639-8125
Sir Wilfred Grenfell College     e-mail: olaf@kean.ucs.mun.ca
Corner Brook, Newfoundland
Canada
A2H 6P9

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Oct 1993 17:51:35 -0400
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: A minor correction re:  F4Fs at Coral Sea/Midway

A minor correction (from memory; you know how dangerous that is)...

I believe that the F4Fs in action during the Battle of the
Coral Sea were mostly F4F-3 variants, while a month later
at Midway, many or all were F4F-4s.  The big differences
between the two were the advent of folding wings on the -4,
and the reduction in ammunition load.  By folding the wings,
the number that could be carried by a shipboard VF rose from
about 18 up to 27.  The penalty was a further increase in weight,
detrimental to performance.  Either to help offset the weight
gain, or because of reduced space available in the wing, the
amount of ammunition carried was reduced by about five second's
worth of firing time.

BTW, the SBD Dauntless never did receive folding wings, limiting
its effectiveness because of the reduced number that could be
stowed on a carrier.  It's replacement, the SB2C Helldiver, was
never as well liked by the pilots familiar with the SBD's handling.
If I recollect correctly, Enterprise managed to hang on to its
SBDs into 1944, rather than convert to the Helldiver.


Dennis E. Sparks
SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Oct 1993 15:20:57 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Division of Japanese forces at Leyte worked

Yes, lots of variables, but it nearly worked -- spectacularly -- just the
  same (and maybe because of all those variables).

Leyte wasn't as simple a situation as Midway.

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 11:47:33 +1000
From:    Michael J Fauchon <ulmjf@DEWEY.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: SdKfz. 234 Puma

        BTW, the "Sd" is for "Sonderdienst", i.e. special purpose. Just
by way of an aside.

                                                                Cheers,

                                                                Mick.

--                                                                          --
Mick Fauchon                          | Internet: ulmjf@dewey.newcastle.edu.au
Reference Section, Auchmuty Library   | Ph  (intl+61+49) 215861
University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA    | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833


On Tue, 12 Oct 1993, Terry Moore wrote:

> Irek,
>
> I will locate the info for you. I used to know the designation SDkfz.
> I will get that for you too. Kfz stands for Kraftfahrzeug or vehicle.
>
> Will be in touch.
>
> Terry
>
> Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
> P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
> fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Oct 1993 20:25:41 CST
From:    "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer,
         Tim A." <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Recreation Groups

I've never heard of "Keep 'em Rolling" before.  I know there are several
WWII reenacting groups in Europe.

One reenacting group is located in England.  11th Panzer has
corresponded with one of their German groups about them attending our
events.  They can own semi-automatic weapons, but full-auto's are a
no-no there.  They have to pay somebody from the Army to bring and shoot
any full-auto's at an event they are holding.

There is a group in Germany that reenacts WWII as well.  Their gun laws
are so restrictive that it is difficult to get proper weapons, and
full-automatic firearms are out of the question as well.  They also have
to stitch out the swastika on their breast eagles, and other insignia
for it is illegal to wear.  They usually end up doing displays, but not
much more.

I know both groups have showed interest in coming to US events because
we can legally own and use WWII weapons.  That brings me to another
point.  The Bureau of Alocohol, Tobacco and Firearms controls where I ca
n take my MP-40, and where I can't due to the need to approve
transportation requests through them.  At least three reenactors were
disapproved for the national battle for no apparent reason by the BATF.
One administrator in particular did all three disapprovals.  They filled
the same paperwork the same way they always did, and it was always
approved up until now.  Mine got approved, but I hope this isn't a
preview of coming attractions under the Clinton Administration.

I'm not trying to make a political statement here.  It is just that
BATFchanging policies can have a large detrimental effect on our ability
to recreate history well.  I will keep you posted of any future
developments.

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Oct 1993 23:33:37 -0230
From:    CHILL <tpardy@MORGAN.UCS.MUN.CA>
Subject: <No subject given>

To all who care to reply,

        Greetings! I have been monitoring the discussions on this service
for the past week or so and thought it was time to jump into the thick of
things. I am currently collecting information for my personal files on
technological advances in World War II (trust me there were many!) and their
use/importance in the European theater of operations. I thought this might
be an interesting topic for open debate. If any one has any information that
they would like to share or discuss (possibly even point me in the
direction of some interesting books on the subject) it would be greatly
appreciated.

Thanks

Chill
email address
tpardy@morgan.ucs.mun.ca
:*)

******************************************************************************
"FROM THE BOTTOM IT LOOKS LIKE A STEEP INCLINE, FROM THE TOP ANOTHER
DOWNHILL SLOPE OF MINE...BUT I KNOW THE EQUILIBRIUM'S THERE.
                    Mike Patton (no relation...I think)
******************************************************************************

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 11 Oct 1993 to 12 Oct 1993
*************************************************

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Status: O

There are 37 messages totalling 1115 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Aircraft carriers (4)
  2. Gen: White Rose (2)
  3. your mail (2)
  4. USAAF 13 OCT 43 (2)
  5. Howdy! (3)
  6. Q: German medal, 1939 (5)
  7. Division of Japanese forces at Leyte worked
  8. SdKfz. 234 Puma (2)
  9. the sound (3)
 10. re : Doolittle
 11. The "Philadelphia Experiment" (5)
 12. Doolittle Raid (2)
 13. A minor correction re: F4Fs at Coral Sea/Midway (3)
 14. WEAP: SdKfz. 234 Puma
 15. subscription

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 09:51:34 +0200
From:    Chris Scogings <cscoging@UNPCS1.CS.UNP.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: Aircraft carriers

>The CVF is a mistake. I am certain it was typographical. It should
>have been CVA (Carrier, Fixed-wing, Attack)

Does the A stand for Attack?  Ok, what does the V stand for?  It can't mean
fixed-wing, because in WWII there was no alternative?

Chris
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Scogings                      Voice: (27) 331 955645
Computer Science Dept                 Fax: (27) 331 955599
University of Natal
Pietermaritzburg                   E-Mail:cscoging@unpcs1.cs.unp.ac.za
----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 09:57:05 +0100
From:    Richard Cummings <CUMMINGSR@ADMINA.RFERL.ORG>
Subject: Gen: White Rose

Yesterday, for what it is worth, was the 50th Anniversary of the
execution of the last member of the anti-Hitler group, "The White Rose."

Regards from Munich.  Richard.

--==oo00oo==--
cummingsr@rferl.org
RFE/RL Inc
Munich,Germany

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 20:58:08 +1000
From:    Derek Monz <gldrm@JCU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: your mail

On Tue, 12 Oct 1993, CHILL wrote:

> To all who care to reply,
>
>         Greetings! I have been monitoring the discussions on this service
> for the past week or so and thought it was time to jump into the thick of
> things. I am currently collecting information for my personal files on
> technological advances in World War II (trust me there were many!) and their
> use/importance in the European theater of operations. I thought this might
> be an interesting topic for open debate. If any one has any information that
> they would like to share or discuss (possibly even point me in the
> direction of some interesting books on the subject) it would be greatly
> appreciated.


 How about discussing the airborne radar units used by 8th air force units.
 Derek Monz.


EMail: gldrm@manta.jcu.edu.au           Derek Monz @ JCU 1993
       stu17@groper.jcu.edu.au          Disclamer: - I didn't do it!
" If there is anything more important than my Ego.....
                 I want taken out and shot!"  (Zaphod Beablbrox (HHGTTG)).

                            ((-------))
                                \o/
                                 |
                               _/ \_

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 07:17:02 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 13 OCT 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
WEDNESDAY, 13 OCTOBER 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  F-4, Lockheed Lightning
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  Spitfire, Vickers Supermarine

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 11 P-40's unsuccessfully intercept 8
Japanese medium bombers attacking Massacre Bay and the nearby airfield on
Attu Island in the Aleutian Islands.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): Japanese fighters appear in strength over
Sumprabum, Burma to attack over-the-Hump flights. The enemy evades US
patrols and shoots down 3 transports. A fighter-bomber offensive against
airfields in Burma from which fighters might operate against Hump
transports opens with an attack by P-40's on Myitkyina.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 3 B-25's on a sea sweep off SE China hit
shipping in Amoy harbor, claiming 1 freighter sunk and another damaged.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): Italy declares war
on Germany.
  In Italy, XII Bomber Command B-25's and B-26's bomb the town of Alife, a
road junction at Sessa Aurunca, and airfield at Tirana; XII Air Support
Command, supplemented by Royal Air Force (RAF) Desert Air Force (DAF)
fighters, supports the US Fifth Army, which begins an assault crossing of the
Volturno River on a 40-mile (64 km) front during the night of 12/13 Oct.
Fighters and fighter-bombers hit troop and tank concentrations, trains,
trucks, and communications the lines in the forward areas, especially around
Ortona, Giulianova, and Campobasso. Northwest African Tactical Bomber Force
(NATBF) light bombers join in the attacks, hitting road junctions in the
Vairano, Carinola, Dragoni, Vasto, Terracina, and Minturno areas.
  The 12th Photographic Squadron (Light), 3d Photographic Reconnaissance and
Mapping Group, transfers from Ariana to La Marsa, Tunisia with F-4's and F-5's.
  The detachment of the 27th Fighter Squadron, 1st Fighter Group, operating
from Gambut, Libya with P-38's since 5 Oct, returns to it's base at Mateur,
Tunisia.
  The 92d Fighter Squadron, 81st Fighter Group, transfers from Sidi Ahmed,
Tunisia to Castelvetrano, Sicily with P-39's.
  The 307th Fighter Squadron, 31st Fighter Group, transfers from Montecorvino
to Pomigliano, Italy with Spitfires.
  The 379th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 310th Bombardment Group (Medium),
based at Menzel Temime, Tunisia with B-25's, begins operating from Oudna,
Tunisia.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, a detachment of the 17th Photographic Squadron (Light), 4th
Photographic Reconnaissance and Mapping Group, based on Guadalcanal Island
with F-5's, begins operating from Munda, New Georgia Island. The air echelons
of "C" and "D" Flights are still in the US.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): On New Britain
Island in the Bismarck Archipelago, 100+ B-24's and B-25's are sent against
Rabaul; bad weather forces the bombers to turn back, but 40+ B-24's hit
targets including Hoskins, Lindenhafen, Cape Gloucester and Gasmata Island
off the south coast of New Britain Island.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
 Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 07:44:47 EDT
From:    "William B. Thacker" <wbt@CBEMF.ATT.COM>
Subject: Re: Aircraft carriers

Chris Scogings writes:

> Does the A stand for Attack?  Ok, what does the V stand for?  It can't mean
> fixed-wing, because in WWII there was no alternative?

You're on the right track, but 60 years or so too late.  "V" stands for
heavier-than-air, to distinguish airplanes from blimps.  (Durned if I can
recall the abbrev. for lighter-than-air.)  Hence, "VF" would refer to a
heavier-than-air fighter squadron; stick an "M" in there if it's Marines.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
(614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              wbt@cbemf.att.com
                      Humpty Dumpty was pushed!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 07:47:19 EDT
From:    "William B. Thacker" <wbt@CBEMF.ATT.COM>
Subject: Howdy!

Larry!

How's it going, eh?  I trust all's well with you and Kim, and that West
Lafayette is still gonna be there next June.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
(614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              wbt@cbemf.att.com
                      Humpty Dumpty was pushed!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 06:49:25 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Q: German medal, 1939

Dear Olaf,

That decoration sounds to me as though it could be the Knight's Cross
of the War Meritorious Service Cross with Swords, in which case it
would have great resale value. Of course, not being able to see it,
it may be some other decoration, but that is what it sounds like to
me.

Such a decoration was awarded to highly placed officials in either
the military or civilian sectors and was awarded for outstanding
contributions to the war effort.

Hope this helps.

Terry Moore

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 07:00:46 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Division of Japanese forces at Leyte worked

Lou,

That is absolutely correct. Midway, as complicated a plan as the
Japanese had devised for its prosecution, wasn't nearly as convoluted
as the Leyte operation. Also the number of men involved at Leyte,
sailors alone, amounted to more than were listed in the entire Marine
Corps of 1937. The number of sailors involved amounted to very nearly
144,000.

Terry


Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 07:04:49 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gen: White Rose

Richard,

Thanks for the update. I wasn't aware that yesterday was the
anniversary of the demise of the White Rose Society.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 07:05:54 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: your mail

That is a very interesting topic. What about jet and rocket
propulsion development? This is only a suggestion.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 07:08:59 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Aircraft carriers

Bill,

I wasn't aware that a change had been made in that designation. Do
you know approximately when this happened? V has always meant to me
"fixed-wing".  I would be interested in knowing what the designation
for dirigible was. I will do some checking myself.

Thanks.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 07:13:35 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: SdKfz. 234 Puma

Irek,

Sd Kfz 232 or 234, I have seen reference to both, but somehow, I
think there might be mistake here, refers to Sonderkraftfahrzeug or
"Special purpose vehicle". This type of vehicle was armed with a 75mm
cannon (L/48 75mm) and was used in reconnaissance mainly. Its great
advantage was silence and speed as opposed to that of a tank. Its
disadvantage was its vulnerability in cross-country operations. It
had a crew of 4.

Terry



Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 07:15:22 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Howdy!

>
> Larry!
>
> How's it going, eh?  I trust all's well with you and Kim, and that West
> Lafayette is still gonna be there next June.

  I'm slowly surfacing. Anyone who hasn't got their flu shots yet are urged
to do so!

  My mailbox imploded while I was Tango Uniform, so if I owe anyone a reply
send me a note.

> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
> (614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              wbt@cbemf.att.com
>                       Humpty Dumpty was pushed!
                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                   Oh great, another conspiracy theory!
>
Larry J


JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 14:43:00 CET
From:    Peter de Lange <MIMHCB@RULMVS.LEIDENUNIV.NL>
Subject: the sound

The sound.
On Saturday 15.45 I heard the sound. Fantastic!
I looked out of the window and saw a B-25 Mitchell flying,
coming from the West and with a big turn going to the South.
Peter de Lange
MIMHCB@Rulmvs.LeidenUniv.nl

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 14:44:00 CET
From:    Peter de Lange <MIMHCB@RULMVS.LEIDENUNIV.NL>
Subject: re : Doolittle

Doolittle.
In my neighbourhood (Holland) only a few people knew Doolittle,
but that few knew a lot about him.
Between the wars Doolittle visited Fokker and the Fokker Company.
In "Vliegwereld" (an aircraft magazin) dd 1-may-1942 ( in an
occupied country) I found the following:
-Air raid on Tokio-
-American bombers bombed Tokio and a few other Japanese towns.
 -A Tokio daily newspaper wrote that a lot of bombers with
 -American stars bombed Tokio.Under the bombers were aircraft of
 -the type "Ma-50". There was air alarm for about 7 hours and the next
 -day again there was a few times air alarm.
 -On the second day all the fires were under control.
 -The Empire and his family were save.
-The article of Vliegwereld goes on with the remarks, it is pity
-that the Japanes did not count the engines, if that were 4, than
-it must be an plane started from the land, but only the B-19 was
-able to fly such a big distance, but as far as known was the B-19
-not in production.
-Option 2, if it were 2 engined planes, than they could start from
-a carrier, but then there was the problem of landing, returning
-to the carriers seems impossible, than there were 2 options to
-fly on, 1e Wladiwostok, not so far but political very difficult
-because the USSR and USA were Allies against Germany, but the USSR
-and Japon were friends, 2e to China, a bigger distance.
-The first goal of the flight could be war supply to China, the way
-through India and Birma was blocked, so the US had to transport
- with carriers over the Pacific and fly the last end. If they passed
-Japon on delivery flight they could drop a few bombs.
-The comment on the type "Ma-50" maybe a  mixed up with Na-50.
After all a very close article.
Peter de Lange
MIMHCB@Rulmvs.LeidenUniv.NL

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 09:45:12 EDT
From:    Michael Cotter <LBCOTTER@ECUVM1.BITNET>
Subject: The "Philadelphia Experiment"

Can any WWII-L readers help me with a question about U.S. Navy exper-
iments with radar or other electronic technology?  In 1943, the Navy
supposedly conducted a experiment with a ship (and its crew) in which the
ship disappeared, then was brought back.  The crew members who moved around
during this test period were affected somehow, but those who remained
stationary were all right.  The Navy base where the research and/or tests
occurred was in New Jersey; since the 1980s, it has been a state park, although
much of it remains the same as it was during the Navy period.

The person who is asking about this says that her mother heard someone on
the radio in Pittsburgh talk about it.  She didn't get his name, of course.

We've checked some sources in the library, but haven't found any information.
I'd appreciate any leads on this.  Thanks.

Michael Cotter
Documents Librarian
Joyner Library
East Carolina University
Greenville NC 27858
919/757-6533

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 09:44:55 EDT
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <hb9388@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Q: German medal, 1939

Reply to Larry and/or Olaf:

The medal you describe is the War Merit Cross 2nd Class (Kriegsverdienstkreuz,
2. klasse).  It was awarded for meritorious service (not bravery) by the
Wehrmacht.  It is somewhat akin to the Army Commendation Medal awarded
by the U.S. Army.

Hope this helps.

Barry


>Reposted from soc.history, please reply to address at end of file:
>(Or tell us and I'll forward.)
>
>>One of my students has come into the possession of a German
>>military decoration. He would like more information about it.
>>He would also like to know whether it has any sale value. I would
>>be grateful if anyone out there with some knowledge about medals
>>and military decorations can be of assistance.
>>
>>The medal is of brass; it is in the form of a Maltese cross,
>>around 2" in height. A pair of swords (hilts at the 5 o'clock and
>>7 o'clock positions) intersect the cross. At the centre is a
>>wreath; on one side of the medal at the centre of the wreath
>>there is a swastika, while on the other side the year "1939"
>>appears in the centre. A brass ring passes through an eyelet at
>>the top of the medal; the number "100" is stamped in almost
>>microscopic numerals on this ring. The ribbon accompanying the
>>medal no longer is attached. The ribbon is black with red edging;
>>a thin white edge separate red and black.
>>
>>Thanks in advance for any information.
>>
>>Olaf Janzen                      Tel: (709) 637-6282
>>Department of History            FAX: (709) 639-8125
>>Sir Wilfred Grenfell College     e-mail: olaf@kean.ucs.mun.ca
>>Corner Brook, Newfoundland
>>Canada
>>A2H 6P9
>
>
>--
>JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
>"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
>unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
>Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41
>

Barrett F. Lowe                    RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, US Military Academy, West Point, NY 10996

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 09:56:37 EDT
From:    Michael Cotter <LBCOTTER@ECUVM1.BITNET>
Subject: Re: The "Philadelphia Experiment"

P. S., I forgot to mention that the movie "The Philadelphia Experiment"
is based loosely on this experiment.

Michael Cotter
Documents Librarian
Joyner Library
East Carolina University
Greenville NC 27858
919/757-6533

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 09:42:44 -0400
From:    "M. Joseph Barone" <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: USAAF 13 OCT 43

> MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS Italy declares war on Germany.

        I should note that Italy was divided into two political units
at this time: The southern portion under Allied control headed by
Marshal Badoglio and the Italian National Republic in the north
nominally under Mussolini.  Needless to say, the north continued
to fight alongside the Axis while a state of war had already existed
between the southern government and the Axis.
--
Joe Barone
m1b@rayssd.ssd.ray.com
Look, we're not worried about the German Army, we've got enough troubles
of our own.  To the right, General Patton; to the left, the British Army;
to the rear, our own goddamn artillery; and besides all that, it's raining!
And the only good thing to say about the weather, it keeps our Air Corp
from blowing us all to hell because it's too lousy to fly!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 09:55:23 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: the sound

Peter and to all others,

It may be of interest to note that for the next 2 days, an
operationally ready B-17 and B-24 (the only one of its kind in this
condition) are here in Amarillo on display.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 10:52:52 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <kc5318@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Doolittle Raid

>LTC Crane writes:
>
>> Bill Thacker writes of the Doolittle Raid:
>> >That's the up side.  I also feel people have been ignoring a major facet of
>> >the down side.  I've read estimates in the hundreds of thousands for the
>> >number of Chinese civilians killed by the Japanese in reprisal for the
>> >raid.  That weighs heavily against any moral gains of the raid.
>>
>>Bill, I don't understand your logic.  Perhaps if we had known about the
>>retalia tions that the raid would bring, that might lessen the moral
>>impact, but we cann ot be held responsible for unexpected enemy excesses in
>>response to military ac tions.
>
>That's a problem when quoting me out of the context of the discussion.
>
>The point that was being argued was whether or not the Doolittle Raid was a
>good call.  There are two approaches one may take when arguing about the
>correctness of an historical decision:
>
> 1) Was the decision was the correct one given the information
>        available to the decision-maker? (Was it a good bet?)
>
> 2) Was the decision correct in hindsight? (Did it pay off?)
>
>The discussions taking place were clearly of the second type; "We would
>have been better off with two more carriers at Coral Sea" is an argument
>based in hindsight, as is "The raid removed any resistance by the Japanese
>staff to the Midway Operation."  Neither of these results was foreseeable
>to Roosevelt at the time the raid was ordered.
>
>If we're doing a hindsight analysis, we're basically asking, "If we could
>go back, knowing what we know now, would we do it again?"  All I'm saying
>is that if we're playing that game, we *must* consider the Chinese
>civilians the Japanese killed, because we, unlike Roosevelt, are not
>ignorant of that outcome.
>
>Does that clear it up?
>
>
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
>(614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              wbt@cbemf.att.com
>                      Humpty Dumpty was pushed!


Bill,
     I understand your position, but I am still uneasy with attempts to judge
"moral gains" in hindsight.
                                             Con

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 10:07:20 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: the sound

> The sound.
> On Saturday 15.45 I heard the sound. Fantastic!
> I looked out of the window and saw a B-25 Mitchell flying,
> coming from the West and with a big turn going to the South.

Ain't that sound wonderful?  :-)

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 11:25:56 EDT
From:    Charles Reace <creace@ISD.CSC.COM>
Subject: Re: The "Philadelphia Experiment"

I thought there was a book out by the same title as the movie.  I've never
read it, so I don't know how serious a study it was, or if it was just
sensationalism.  I would assume from your job title you've already looked
this up, so perhaps it's out of print?

I realize this probably isn't much help, so good luck anyway!

-cwr-  B^)

Charles Reace <creace@isd.csc.com>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 13:19:34 EDT
From:    Peter Smith <psmith@DG-WEBO.WEBO.DG.COM>
Subject: Re: The "Philadelphia Experiment"

This is generally accepted as being a hoax.  The story was originated
by one Carlos Allende (aka Carlos Allen) and publicised by Morris Jessup,
a writer/publisher of some fairly lurid UFO stories in the 1950's.

Allende/Allen made use of the secret work going on at the Philadelphia
Naval Shipyard as fertile ground for his story.  During the period in
question, a research laboratory was set up there for the Manhattan
Project.  Famous physicists from Princeton and Penn were seen coming
and going and there were many rumors at the time of secret weapons
being developed.  That much was true, but Allende's stories of the
teleportation of the USS Eldridge (DDE-173) appear groundless.

Charles Berlitz, who has made a good living writing about the Bermuda
Triangle, etc., wrote a a book entitled _The Philadelphia Experiment_
that describes the tale pretty much as you heard it.

If you want more info, try posting to sci.skeptic or alt.folklore.urban.
This comes up there about once a semester.
---
Peter Smith -- Data General Corp., Westboro, MA
Peter_Smith@dgc.ceo.dg.com or psmith@dg-webo.webo.dg.com
#include <std_disclaimer.h>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 19:11:10 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVS2.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: A minor correction re: F4Fs at Coral Sea/Midway

> stowed on a carrier.  It's replacement, the SB2C Helldiver, was
> never as well liked by the pilots familiar with the SBD's handling.

The SB2C wasn't liked by anybody. British test pilot Eric Brown commented
that no such aircraft would ever be allowed near a British carrier deck.

Emmanuel.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 14:18:28 EDT
From:    "William B. Thacker" <wbt@CBEMF.ATT.COM>
Subject: Re: SdKfz. 234 Puma

Terry Moore wrote:

> Sd Kfz 232 or 234, I have seen reference to both, but somehow, I
> think there might be mistake here, refers to Sonderkraftfahrzeug or
> "Special purpose vehicle". This type of vehicle was armed with a 75mm
> cannon (L/48 75mm) and was used in reconnaissance mainly. Its great
> advantage was silence and speed as opposed to that of a tank. Its
> disadvantage was its vulnerability in cross-country operations. It
> had a crew of 4.


I never saw the original posting on this, so forgive me if I'm taking a
wrong tangent.

The SdKfz 234 was an 8-wheeled armored car developed ca. 1942 as a
replacement for the earlier SdKfz 231/232/233 8-wheelers.  Among its more
interesting features was that it was powered by a Tatra Diesel engine.  I'm
pretty sure it was the only German production AFV that was Diesel- powered.
Using a Diesel increased the vehicle's range; other modifications were made
in light of experience in the desert (and southern Russia).

(BTW, I've always understood SdKfz to be Sonderkraftfahrzeug, as Terry
says.  I've never seen "Sonderdienst...")

The SdKfz 234 was produced in four variants:

SdKfz 234/1 : Armed with a 2cm and coax MG in turret (ten-sided, open-
        topped with wire mesh hatches; identical to the SdKfz 222)
        About 200 built
SdKfz 234/2 : the Puma, carried a 5cm L/60 in a larger turret.  100 built
SdKfz 234/3 : Fitted with 7.5cm L/24 in a superstructure mount with
        limited traverse and open top. 89 built.
SdKfz 234/4 : Similar to 234/3, but with 7.5cm PAK 40 (L/48), complete
        with field carriage less wheels.  89 built.

It's tricky to distinguish the 234 series from the 231/232/233.  Key
points:  The 231/232/233 have separate fenders for each pair of wheels,
front and back, whereas the 234's have a continuous fender over all 4
wheels.  The 231 was often fitted with a spaced armor kit, which projected
forward several feet from the front "bumper".  The 232 has a massive frame
radio aerial running over the entire vehicle.  The 231 also has a
closed-top turret.  The 233 mounts a short 7.5cm L/24 cannon in an open-top
fighting compartment (and has split fenders).

The 234's entered service from mid-'44, so if you see any 8-wheeler filmed
in the desert it's a 231/232/233.  If you see one painted solid gray, it's
probably a 231/232/233.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
(614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              wbt@cbemf.att.com
                      Humpty Dumpty was pushed!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 15:50:26 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: The "Philadelphia Experiment"

Dear Michael,

I remember hearing something about this on a tv program that dealt
with wierd experiements that were conducted during the war, but it
has been some time, since I have seen that. Oh, I think I remember
something about that now.

There was a segment on this episode in a movie that dealt with
strange events or experiments in conjunction with unexplainable
"facts" dealing with among other things the "Bermuda Triangle". I
don't remember the name of the "documentary" movie, but I distinctly
remember this being discussed and, using trick photography,
simulating the disappearance and reappearance of the ship. If I
remember correctly, even the sailors on board the ship experienced
and continued to experience this phenomenon even after being released
from the ship after  the experiment. This all sounds very strange,
indeed, but, to the best of my memory, this is that part of the movie
that I remember which dealt with this experiment.

I have never seen anything in print to substantiate this experiment.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 16:13:56 -0500
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: Q: German medal, 1939

In Barry's message of 13 Oct 1993 at 0859 CDT, he writes:
> Reply to Larry and/or Olaf:
>
> The medal you describe is the War Merit Cross 2nd Class (Kriegsverdienstkreuz,
> 2. klasse).  It was awarded for meritorious service (not bravery) by the
> Wehrmacht.  It is somewhat akin to the Army Commendation Medal awarded
> by the U.S. Army.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Barry
>
>
> >>One of my students has come into the possession of a German
> >>military decoration. He would like more information about it.
> >>He would also like to know whether it has any sale value. I would
> >>be grateful if anyone out there with some knowledge about medals
> >>and military decorations can be of assistance.

Barry's right.  Its a KVK 2nd Class and its worth between $15 and
$30 US dollars.  This one sounds rather nice being hallmarked on the
ring.  The 100 is the manufacturers code.

Were it the Knights Cross version multiply the price times 100
but they are made of 950 silver and are so marked.  The suspension
loop is also different being an oval loop allowing the ribbon to pass
through left to right rather than front to back and was worn around
the neck.  The eyelet for the loop on the Knights cross is reinforced
by two stanchions attaching a circle through which the bottom of the
ribbon loop passes.  The ribbon of the medal is about two inches wide
and 6 to 8 inches long.  The ribbon for the Knights Cross is three
inches wide and 18-24 inches long and finished with tie strings in the
back.

The medal described should be bronze rather than brass.  Some late
war versions were make of Kriegsmetall (a pot metal based zink alloy)
and was plated bronze.

> >>The medal is of brass; it is in the form of a Maltese cross,
> >>around 2" in height. A pair of swords (hilts at the 5 o'clock and
> >>7 o'clock positions) intersect the cross. At the centre is a
> >>wreath; on one side of the medal at the centre of the wreath
> >>there is a swastika, while on the other side the year "1939"
> >>appears in the centre. A brass ring passes through an eyelet at
> >>the top of the medal; the number "100" is stamped in almost
> >>microscopic numerals on this ring. The ribbon accompanying the
> >>medal no longer is attached. The ribbon is black with red edging;
> >>a thin white edge separate red and black.

Its not a rare medal but they are being faked so its worth keeping.
This one sounds like a good one.  They normally don't bother to
hallmark the cheaper fake medals and badges.  They certainly do on
the rarer ones!  Its almost not worth faking this medal well yet as
there are so many originals around that are inexpensive.

Regards,  Bill Huber
          whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 16:09:30 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Q: German medal, 1939

Barry,

The second book you mentioned to me, Order of Battle of the US Army,
a history and listing of regiments, etc. is also out of stock and I
can't get that one, either. If you run across a loose copy somewhere,
please let me know.

Sorry to have to tell you this.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 16:30:09 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Howdy!

Larry,

Did you get my messages dealing with the syntax to send you my
collection? I still want to do it, but I will need your help. Take
your time, as I know that you are swamped.

Also, I am still having trouble accessing Carlisle to get at those
files at Army War College. Will let you know more.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 19:36:04 -0400
From:    Akira Takiguchi <akira@ATSON.ASAHI-NP.CO.JP>
Subject: Re: Q: German medal, 1939

Olaf,

     The medal is Kriegsverdienstkreuz 2. Klasse (war merit cross 2nd class)
mit Schwertern (with swords).

     Like the Iron Cross, war merit cross had several classes;  2nd Class,
1st Class, Knight's Cross, Golden Knight's Cross (each class with or without
swords).  Also there was Kriegsverdienstmedaille (war merit medal).
Material: Golden Knight's Cross: gold plated silver, Knight's Cross: silver,
1st Class: silver plated bronze/zink, 2nd Class: bronze/bronze on zink.
Width of the ribbon for 2nd class was 30mm;  45mm for Knight's Cross.

     2,700,000 to 6,100,000 individual were awarded with 2nd class with
swords.

     I don't know its sales value, but I presume range of $20-$60 depending
on the status of the order.  Absolutely better if accompanied by the issue
paper.

     If you need more information, books like _Auszeichnungen des Deutschen
Reiches_ (Klietmann, Motorbuch Verlag) / _Orders, Decorations, Medals and
Badges of the Third Reich_ (Littlejohn et al, James Bender Publishing) will
help.
--
      Akira Takiguchi  VP, ATSON, Inc.  (a subsidiary of the Asahi Shimbun)
             CANAL TOWER  9-3 Nihonbashi-Koamicho Chuo-ku Tokyo 103  Japan
   +81 3 3666 2881(voice) 2882(fax)  EMAIL TO <akira@atson.asahi-np.co.jp>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 19:36:09 -0400
From:    Akira Takiguchi <akira@ATSON.ASAHI-NP.CO.JP>
Subject: Re: WEAP: SdKfz. 234 Puma

     I mailed this message to Irek personally but I decided to post to
the list, because the list is capable of killing possibly lurking
mistakes.

     Sd.Kfz.(Sonderkraftfahrzeug = special purpose vehicle) 234 series
didn't go into production until mid 1943.  Two prototypes were built in
late 1941 and experiment of tropical-use engine in Lybia was planned,
the situation of war (defeat of Afrikakorps) did not allow it.  That is,
there lived no Pumas in Africa.  (Since my sources regarding Panzer-
spaehwagen are fairly old, there might be some inaccuracies in the above
statements)

     "Greif", a griffin, was a command vehicle (Sd.Kfz.250/3) of Rommel's.
There were at least two of the same type with different name painted;
"Adler" (eagle) and "Igel" (hedgehog).  Fair amount of photographs of
"Greif" are available in various books.  Interior photographs are available
in a few books about half tracks.

     Interior of Sd.Kfz.223 is a mystery to me, too.  I'd like to know
if there's a book that shows it.

References: _Gepanzerte Radfahrzeuge_, _Die Halbketten-fahrzeuge_
(Spielberger) _German Army Semi-Tracked Vehicles_ (Chamberlain/Doyle)
_Wuestenfuechse_ (Carell) _Koku-fan illustrated #66_ (Kitamura)
--
      Akira Takiguchi  VP, ATSON, Inc.  (a subsidiary of the Asahi Shimbun)
             CANAL TOWER  9-3 Nihonbashi-Koamicho Chuo-ku Tokyo 103  Japan
   +81 3 3666 2881(voice) 2882(fax)  EMAIL TO <akira@atson.asahi-np.co.jp>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 19:53:47 -0400
From:    Bob Smart <bsmart@SMART.COM>
Subject: Re: A minor correction re: F4Fs at Coral Sea/Midway

> A minor correction (from memory; you know how dangerous that is)...
>
> I believe that the F4Fs in action during the Battle of the
> Coral Sea were mostly F4F-3 variants, while a month later
> at Midway, many or all were F4F-4s.  The big differences
> between the two were the advent of folding wings on the -4,
> and the reduction in ammunition load.  By folding the wings,
> the number that could be carried by a shipboard VF rose from
> about 18 up to 27.  The penalty was a further increase in weight,
> detrimental to performance.  Either to help offset the weight
> gain, or because of reduced space available in the wing, the
> amount of ammunition carried was reduced by about five second's
> worth of firing time.

The F4F4 had 6 guns instead of 4. This was the reason for less firing time.
The -4 was also heavier, more sluggish, and had a shorter range.

An Excellent book on the Wildcat is _Wildcat_the_F4F_in WW_II_ by
Barrett Tillman, published by Naval Institute Press. I picked it up at a
book outlet I've mentioned before for I think $5.00, many good pictures,
lots of operational information, 18 pages of text, 20 pages of Appendicees.

>
> BTW, the SBD Dauntless never did receive folding wings, limiting
> its effectiveness because of the reduced number that could be
> stowed on a carrier.

Interesting Trivia Question:
What was the next Carrier Aircraft after the Dauntless to have non-folding
wings?

>                       It's replacement, the SB2C Helldiver, was
> never as well liked by the pilots familiar with the SBD's handling.

I believe range was another factor as well as a propensity of early beasts
to break just in front of the tail on hard landings.

> If I recollect correctly, Enterprise managed to hang on to its
SBDs into 1944, rather than convert to the Helldiver.

Yes The Big E launched SBDs on the infamous long flight after the Marianas
Turkey Shoot. I believe that was the SBDs swan song.

Bob Smart (bsmart@smart.com)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 15:29:06 EDT
From:    "William B. Thacker" <wbt@CBEMF.ATT.COM>
Subject: Re: Doolittle Raid

I had already promised not to post any more on this, but after reading this
article I felt obliged.  I think my postings on this have been grossly
misinterpreted and I'm concerned that people must think poorly of me as a
result.  One last attempt, then, to clarify things.


LTC Crane wrote:
>      I understand your position, but I am still uneasy with attempts to judge
> "moral gains" in hindsight.

I'm not certain how to interpret this statement.

My point in this discussion has been simple, one of basic logic:  it's
fairly pointless to judge anything in hindsight, but if you must, you're
obliged to consider the *entire* picture.

If Con is saying he thinks it's impossible to correctly judge the moral
effects of the raid today, I agree.  I think I even said as much in my
original posting.

If Con is saying he feels the Doolittle raid was worth it, even considering
the Chinese civilian casualties, that's a reasonable argument.  I don't
believe I said otherwise.  To quote myself:

> >>>I also feel people have been ignoring a major facet of
> >>>the down side.  I've read estimates in the hundreds of thousands for the
> >>>number of Chinese civilians killed by the Japanese in reprisal for the
> >>>raid.  That weighs heavily against any moral gains of the raid.

Note: I didn't say "outweighs," I said "weighs heavily against."  It's a
debatable point, and I'm simply saying those deaths must be included in the
hindsight debate.

I did *not* say I thought the raid was wrong.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
(614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              wbt@cbemf.att.com
                      Humpty Dumpty was pushed!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 20:24:35 -0400
From:    Bob Smart <bsmart@SMART.COM>
Subject: Re: Aircraft carriers

> Chris Scogings writes:
>
> > Does the A stand for Attack?  Ok, what does the V stand for?  It can't mean
> > fixed-wing, because in WWII there was no alternative?
>

To confuse things even more the ships that we know as CVE ( Escort Carriers)
were originally AVGs( Auxilery ship, Fixed wing, General?) and then
ACV ( Auxilery Aircraft Carrier)

> You're on the right track, but 60 years or so too late.  "V" stands for
> heavier-than-air, to distinguish airplanes from blimps.  (Durned if I can
> recall the abbrev. for lighter-than-air.)  Hence, "VF" would refer to a
> heavier-than-air fighter squadron; stick an "M" in there if it's Marines.

I think there were seperate designaters for Blimps (non-Rigid Airships) and
Dirigibles ( Rigid Airships)

I always thought it strange that the navy did not have a way to designate
seaplanes from landplanes

Bob Smart (bsmart@smart.com)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 20:33:10 -0400
From:    Bob Smart <bsmart@SMART.COM>
Subject: Re: A minor correction re: F4Fs at Coral Sea/Midway

> > stowed on a carrier.  It's replacement, the SB2C Helldiver, was
> > never as well liked by the pilots familiar with the SBD's handling.
>
> The SB2C wasn't liked by anybody. British test pilot Eric Brown commented
> that no such aircraft would ever be allowed near a British carrier deck.
>

No, They just had the Barracuda!  I like Capt Browns commentaries on the
various aircraft, and he does a pretty even handed job but I don't think the
British havy any room to speak ill of anyones carrier based attack aircraft.

Bob Smart (bsmart@smart.com)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 22:57:16 -0400
From:    JOHNSONS@GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU
Subject: subscription

I'm new to Email.  This discussion forum looks very interesting.
Could you please send me information on how to become involved?

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 12 Oct 1993 to 13 Oct 1993
*************************************************

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Status: O

There are 22 messages totalling 800 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Q: German medal, 1939
  2. GEN:  Sobibor Death Camp Escape Anniversary (4)
  3. USAAF 14 OCT 43
  4. INF: German aircraft listing (3)
  5. MEDIA: Death Tide at Tarawa
  6. WEAP: SdKfz. 234 Puma (5)
  7. Doolittle Raid
  8. INF: Reich Medals
  9. INF: Comfort Women Speech
 10. A minor correction re:  F4Fs at Coral Sea/Midway
 11. GEN: Zuyev Book...
 12. INF: byrd via telnet.
 13. ARCH: ftp help file

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Oct 1993 14:26:20 +1000
From:    Michael J Fauchon <ulmjf@DEWEY.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Q: German medal, 1939

        Sounds to me like it could be a very ordinary "Kriegsverdienstkreuz"
--- I have one at home from 1914/18, and it fits the description perfectly,
except, of course, for the date and the swastika.

                                                        Cheers,

                                                        Mick.

--                                                                          --
Mick Fauchon                          | Internet: ulmjf@dewey.newcastle.edu.au
Reference Section, Auchmuty Library   | Ph  (intl+61+49) 215861
University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA    | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833


On Wed, 13 Oct 1993, Terry Moore wrote:

> Dear Olaf,
>
> That decoration sounds to me as though it could be the Knight's Cross
> of the War Meritorious Service Cross with Swords, in which case it
> would have great resale value. Of course, not being able to see it,
> it may be some other decoration, but that is what it sounds like to
> me.
>
> Such a decoration was awarded to highly placed officials in either
> the military or civilian sectors and was awarded for outstanding
> contributions to the war effort.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Terry Moore
>
> Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
> P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
> fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Oct 1993 09:49:44 +0100
From:    Richard Cummings <CUMMINGSR@ADMINA.RFERL.ORG>
Subject: GEN:  Sobibor Death Camp Escape Anniversary

For what it is worth, today is the 50th Anniversary of the
escape of 300 prisoners from the Sobibor Death Camp.
10 German and 13 Ukrainian guards were killed before the
escape.  It has been estimated that about 250,000 Jews
were murdered in the the gas chambers at Sobibor.

Regards from Munich.  Richard.

--==oo00oo==--
cummingsr@rferl.org
RFE/RL Inc
Munich,Germany

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Oct 1993 12:01:21 +0200
From:    Chris Scogings <cscoging@UNPCS1.CS.UNP.AC.ZA>
Subject: GEN:  Sobibor Death Camp Escape Anniversary

Please, please, tell us more about this!

Chris
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Scogings                      Voice: (27) 331 955645
Computer Science Dept                 Fax: (27) 331 955599
University of Natal
Pietermaritzburg                   E-Mail:cscoging@unpcs1.cs.unp.ac.za
----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Oct 1993 08:00:33 AST
From:    Joanne Brown <BROWNJM@ADMIN1.UNBSJ.CA>
Subject: Re: GEN:  Sobibor Death Camp Escape Anniversary

> From:       Richard Cummings <CUMMINGSR@ADMINA.RFERL.ORG>
> Subject:    GEN:  Sobibor Death Camp Escape Anniversary

> For what it is worth, today is the 50th Anniversary of the
> escape of 300 prisoners from the Sobibor Death Camp.
> 10 German and 13 Ukrainian guards were killed before the
> escape.  It has been estimated that about 250,000 Jews
> were murdered in the the gas chambers at Sobibor.
>
> Regards from Munich.  Richard.
>
> --==oo00oo==--
> cummingsr@rferl.org
> RFE/RL Inc
> Munich,Germany
>

FYI:

There's an excellent movie available on video here in North America
which is a fictionalized account of this event.  It's title is
'Escape from Sobibor'.  Might've been released in Europe as well.

Does anybody know of any books or journal articles on this subject?

Joanne Brown
Saint John, N.B.
Canada





                   Joanne Brown, Reference Department
Bibliotheque Ward Chipman Library         E-Mail     BROWNJM@UNBSJ.CA
University of New Brunswick               Tel (506)  648-5710
Saint John, N.B. Canada                   Fax (506)  648- 5701

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Oct 1993 07:13:22 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 14 OCT 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
THURSDAY, 14 OCTOBER 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-51, North American Mustang
  Spitfire, Vickers Supermarine

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 4 B-25's attack shipping in the
Amoy area, damaging 2 freighters, and also bomb Amoy Airfield.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): VIII Bomber Command Mission 115:
229 of 291 B-17's hit the city area and ball bearing plants at Schweinfurt,
Germany in 2 group; the first group bombs at 1439-1445 hours, the second
group at 1451-1457 hours; they claim 186-27-89 Luftwaffe aircraft; 60 B-17's
are lost, 7 damaged beyond repair and 138 damaged; casualties are 5 KIA, 40
WIA and 594 MIA. The attack, which causes great damage and interference with
production, results in German reorganization of the bearing industry. Fierce
opposition of great numbers of fighters, many of them firing rockets,
accounts for the 60 US aircraft shot down. As a result of these heavy losses,
daylight bombing against strategic targets deep in Germany is discontinued
for a short period.
  Only 29 of 60 B-24's are able to form up in poor weather; they abandoned
their planned mission and fly a diversion towards Emden, Germany.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, XII
Bomber Command B-25's hit Argos Airfield and B-17's bomb the Terni
marshalling yard. Other B-17's and B-24's attack a bridge at Giulianova,
the town area of Piano-Vomano and railroad and highway bridges N of Pescara
and along the E coast of Italy. Weather hinders tactical aircraft operations,
but the XII Air Support Command and Royal Air Force (RAF) Desert Air Force
(DAF) hit trains and vehicles and fly patrols from N of the Volturno River
to Formia and N of Pescara.
  HQ 31st Fighter Group and it's 308th and 309th Fighter Squadrons transfer
from Montecorvino to Pomigliano, Italy with Spitfires.
  The 5th Photographic Squadron (Light), Twelfth Air Force, based at La
Marsa, Tunisia with F-5's transfers operations from Pontecagnano to
Pomigliano, Italy.
  The 111th Reconnaissance Squadron (Fighter), 68th Reconnaissance Group,
ceases operating from Capaccio and returns to it's base at Pomigliano,
Italy with P-51's.
  The 525th Fighter-Bomber Squadron, 86th Fighter-Bomber Group, transfers
from Sele Airfield to Serretella Airfield, Italy with A-36's.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, a single B-24 on armed reconnaissance bombs 4 barges W of Taiof
Island, leaving 1 sinking.
  The 371st Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 307th Bombardment Group (Heavy),
ceases operating from Guadalcanal Island and returns to it's base on
Espiritu Santo Island, New Hebrides Islands with B-24's.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): 60+ medium
bombers pound Cape Gloucester on New Britain Island and Alexishafen, New
Guinea. 3 others fly harassing strikes against Dili and Lautem on Timor
Island.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
 Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Oct 1993 09:05:33 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: INF: German aircraft listing

Emmanuel Gustin's listing of German military aircraft 1939-1993 has been
uploaded to

byrd.mu.wvnet.edu
/pub/history/military/airforce/German_aircraft.txt (~146k)

If you haven't been visiting byrd lately, all I can say is "take a lunch."

Byrd is now being mirrored at sunsite.unc.edu and is accessible by gopher
through History Net, via ftp, and via telnet. Instructions posted or e-mailed
on request.

Larry J

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Oct 1993 09:34:52 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: MEDIA: Death Tide at Tarawa

Death Tide at Tarawa:

On 17 November, the Naval Institute, in conjunction with Lou Reda
Productions and the Arts and Entertainment network, will present
its second documentary in the popular "Our Century" series, at
10:00 p.m., EST/5:00 p.m. PST.

The hour-long program, titled "Death Tide at Tarawa" and airing
three days before the 50th anniversary of the heroic Marine Corps
amphibious assault in the Gilbert Islands, is hosted by Edward
Herrmann and features Naval Institute author and historian
Colonel Joseph H. Alexander, USMC (Ret.), as primary narrator.
Colonel Alexander will have articles on Tarawa published in next
month's Proceedings and the November/December Naval History. Also
appearing are two Navy Cross recipients from the battle, retired
Marine generals Michael P. Ryan and William K. Jones, and former
Time-Life correspondent Robert Sherrod, who went ashore on D-Day
and later wrote the classic "Tarawa: The Story of a Battle",
recently republished by The Admiral Nimitz Foundation.

Highlighting the program will be a special guest appearance by
motion picture and television star Eddie Albert, who - as a
junior Navy salvage officer - rescued wounded Marines from the
water while under withering fire, until his boat was disabled and
he continued the fight ashore.

Another highlight of the show will be spectacular aerial
photography of the island taken on D-Day - never seen before on
television - along with Academy Award-winning footage of the
battle, the first uncensored combat film of World War II.
Videotapes of this program and the first in the series - the
documentary "Showdown at Leyte Gulf", recounting the epic naval
engagement in waters off the Philippines, which premiered on 8
September - are available directly from the Naval Institute. For
members, the price per tape is $19.96. Nonmembers pay $24.95. (US
dollars, please) To order, call 800-233-8764 or mail to:

U.S. Naval Institute
2062 Generals Highway
Annapolis, MD 21401

Larry J

JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Oct 1993 09:35:09 -0400
From:    "M. Joseph Barone" <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: WEAP: SdKfz. 234 Puma

>     "Greif", a griffin, was a command vehicle (Sd.Kfz.250/3) of Rommel's.
>There were at least two of the same type with different name painted;
>"Adler" (eagle) and "Igel" (hedgehog).  Fair amount of photographs of
>"Greif" are available in various books.  Interior photographs are available
>in a few books about half tracks.
>      Akira Takiguchi

        I remember reading a book written by an aid to Rommel entitled
something like, "In the Desert with Rommel".  I believe his surname was
Schmidt.  Anyway, he mentioned in passing that Rommel's "favorite"
command vehicle was some monstrous truck captured from the British.
The book had some photos of it but its name escapes me.  It looked
like a small moving van or overlarge bread truck.
--
Joe Barone
m1b@rayssd.ssd.ray.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Oct 1993 11:11:00 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <kc5318@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Doolittle Raid

Bill,
     Your explanation is very clear to me.  I guess after doing so much work on
military ethics, I may be oversensitized to criticisms that seem to be based on
knowledge that decisionmakers could not possibly have had access to at the
time. It is a constant struggle to get students to avoid such presentist
arguments, and every so often we historians fall into them, too.

                                                  Con

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Oct 1993 11:10:56 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: SdKfz. 234 Puma

Joe,

I have that same book in my library, and read it many years ago. I
will locate the info you mentioned, and get back to you tomorrw.



Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Oct 1993 11:14:16 -0500
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: WEAP: SdKfz. 234 Puma

In Joe's message of 14 Oct 1993 at 1025 CDT, he sez:
>
>         I remember reading a book written by an aid to Rommel entitled
> something like, "In the Desert with Rommel".  I believe his surname was
> Schmidt.  Anyway, he mentioned in passing that Rommel's "favorite"
> command vehicle was some monstrous truck captured from the British.
> The book had some photos of it but its name escapes me.  It looked
> like a small moving van or overlarge bread truck.
> --
> Joe Barone
> m1b@rayssd.ssd.ray.com
>

It's a critter called the "Mammoth" and I recall reading the same
thing.  Rommel was able to spread out his maps on a table and study
his options better than in the narrow confines of his hanomag.  He
also especially liked the British canned pears and even wore British
dust goggles on his visor cap.

Don't recall him having any American accouterments but it does remind
me of a conversation between Rommel and GFM Hermann Goering.  Goering
commented that all the Americans were good at was making razor blades
to which Rommel answered "We could do with some of those 'razor
blades'."

Hey Joe, no Kellys Heros quotes???  I always look forward to them. :^)

Cheers, Bill Huber
        whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Oct 1993 12:12:52 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: WEAP: SdKfz. 234 Puma

On Thu, 14 Oct 1993 09:35:09 -0400 M. Joseph Barone said:
>        I remember reading a book written by an aid to Rommel entitled
>something like, "In the Desert with Rommel".  I believe his surname was
>Schmidt.  Anyway, he mentioned in passing that Rommel's "favorite"
>command vehicle was some monstrous truck captured from the British.
>The book had some photos of it but its name escapes me.  It looked
>like a small moving van or overlarge bread truck.

Nicknamed "Mammoth" & referenced in =The Rommel Papers=, if memory serves.

Ken Koester
maint2@ers

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Oct 1993 11:16:57 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: INF: Reich Medals

Interesting that this question comes up at a time when Terry Thero is
posting images of Third Reich medals to the binaries.pictures groups.
He will archive them at Wustl and I'll grab copies for byrd when they
are available. I'll let you know. There were three .JPEG images in the
series and he's also done various other countries as well. If these
files are up to his usual standard they will be very nicely done.

Larry J

JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Oct 1993 12:05:30 CDT
From:    Rod Flancher <rodf2@CFSMO.HONEYWELL.COM>
Subject: GEN:  Sobibor Death Camp Escape Anniversary

Hi,
        I'm new to the list and trying my first posting..so bear with
    me please.

        I stumbled upon an archive of literature on the holocaust in
    which I noticed at least two articles dealing with the Sobibor
    escape. I had, until now, never heard of it, But I though I'd
    share the archive with any one interested.

        The address is
                listserv@oneb.almanac.bc.ca

        With HELP in the body tells you how to get things, INDEX in
    the body lists the contents of the archive.


        Hope it helps someone.....

        Rod


        -------------------------------------------------------------------------
        "The only thing God didn't do to Job
         was to give him a computer".        - I.F.Stone

        rodf2@cfsmo.honeywell.com
        -------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Oct 1993 13:19:10 EST
From:    Mike Long <MLONG@UCONNVM.BITNET>
Subject: INF: Comfort Women Speech

To whomever was looking for info,,,,hope this is of interest to ya....

University of Connecticut's Asian American Cultural Center
presents the natioanl speaking tour of

"COMFORT WOMEN,"
Amonita Blajadia, & Nelia Sancho

During WWII, it is etimated that as many as 200,000 women were forced
to become what the Japanese euphemistically speaking called "comfort
women" - women forcibly conscripted to provide sexual services to the
Japanese military throughout Asia. On August 5, 1993 the governmant of
Japan finally admitted responsibility for this sexual enslavement.
However, they continue to refuse to commit themselves on the question
of compensation.

Now many of these women are coming forward to tell their stories and to
demand restitution. One of them is Amonita Balajadia, a 65-year-old
Filipina leader of the former comfort women.

"I want to make sure that justice is finally done. But more importantly,
I want to make sure that what happened to me will never happen again to
any future generations."

Nelia Sancho is a founder and former chairperson of GABRIELA, the first
nationwide womens coalition of the Philippines and is an outspoken
proponent for women's human rights. From the rape of women in the former
Yugoslavia to the increased traficking of women and children worldwide,
the issue of the comfort women is not just one for the history books but
is particularly relevant today.

ASIAN AMERICAN CULTURAL CENTER
2131 Hillside Road
Storrs CT

THURSDAY, OCTOBER 28, 1993
    4 - 6 PM
Reception to follow the presentation.


Regards,
Mike Long
196 AUDITORIUM ROAD, U-138    |   BITNET: MLONG@UCONNVM.BITNET
STORRS, CONNECTICUT, USA      | INTERNET: MLONG@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU
                   06269-3138 |    PHONE: (203) 486-1352

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Oct 1993 13:47:00 EST
From:    TOBY FENWICK <TFENWICK@MIDD.BITNET>
Subject: Re: INF: German aircraft listing

Hi!

Please send instructions to access the byrd.mu.wvnet.edu gopher and Mr.
Gustin's treatise on German Military Arcraft.

Cheers!

Toby

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Oct 1993 12:10:36 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Re: A minor correction re:  F4Fs at Coral Sea/Midway

Dennis,

Or, rather, John Lundstrom!  Didn't the Navy pilots curse the -4s?

I remember reading that some carrier divebomber pilots fought having to
  trade in their Dauntlesses, with good reason as it turned out.

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Oct 1993 14:29:09 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: GEN: Zuyev Book...

Sorry for the mass mailing and generally unrelated nature of the
post (heck, I've been gone a week inhaling lots of pyrotechnics and
standing underneath a B-1 without being shot :-).

A permanent and direct system for ordering Alex Zuyev's book "Fulcrum"
(autographed, even personalized) has now been set up between Alex and
myself (actually, the Wing).

Therefore, the recent orders which came after the August show will be
placed this weekend and you will receive the book(s) directly from
Alex.  If there are any other interested parties in the book, I'll add
them to the current order if you promise (and then prove it :-) that
a check will follow.

Again, sorry for the mass semi-related note, but my mailing list is at
home and the majority of people are on the lists -- hey, I'm lazy, and
if I have to, I'll start name dropping after last weekend... :-)

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Oct 1993 15:17:46 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: INF: German aircraft listing

Would also like the same info.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Oct 1993 15:47:40 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: INF: byrd via telnet.

Here's the instruction to access byrd via telnet. I'll also post the
FTP file that I used to get started.  E-mail me directly if you have
problems.

Larry J

Several people have asked about accessing byrd's collection via telnet. Here's
one method, or you may ask your local wizards to add the History Net and
Marshall U. to your gopher system.

To access the files at Marshall University's Historical Archive site,

telnet to HNSource.cc.ukans.edu

login: HISTORY

Select Resource: Databases

Select America and Africa.

Select BYRD

Select pub (this step may be unneeded if they have the system setup right)

Select history (this step may be unneeded if they have the system setup right)

Select military

Select airforce

Select German_arcraft.txt


Larry J

JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Oct 1993 15:49:57 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: ARCH: ftp help file

Your target site is byrd.mu.wvnet.edu and directory of interest begins with
/pub/history/military (explore the other directories as well, they have some
fun stuff, too!)

From: cbip@cs.ulowell.edu (CBIP Moderator)
Subject: v19inf05: ftp.man, Beginner's Guide to FTP V1.7 (part 01/01)
Originator: oneill@cs.ulowell.edu
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 14:17:38 GMT

[Date of Last Change: 10-Apr-92 Release 1.7]

                        A BEGINNER'S GUIDE TO FTP

Copyright (c) 1991 by Brian O'Neill. Permission to copy this file freely is
given, so long as the file remains unmodified.

    FTP stands for File Transfer Protocol.  It allows a person to transfer
files between two systems, generally connect over local area networks or
wide area networks, such as the Internet.

    If your hosts system has FTP and is connected to the Internet, you
can access very large amounts of archives available on a number of
systems, such as Simtel20 or ftp.uu.net.  This is a simplified use
manual, and will use two examples, one a TOPS-20 system
(wsmr-simtel20.army.mil, which has a large base if PD/Shareware MSDOS
software), and one Unix system (ftp.uu.net, where archives of the
comp.sources newsgroups are kept).

    The simplest way to initiate FTP would be to give the command 'ftp
<system-name>', where <system-name> is the remote system you are
connecting to, either a name (wsmr-simtel20.army.mil, if you have an
entry in /etc/hosts or are accessing a Domain Name Server, such as bind) or
the InterNet address (192.88.110.20, for Simtel20).  After a short wait, you
will be prompted for your username.  If you do not have an account on the
remote system, some systems allow you to use 'anonymous'.  This gives you a
restricted access path, allowing you to access certain files only.

    You would then be prompted for a password. If you are using your own
account, give your password. If you are using 'anonymous', the system may
ask you to send your real identity as the password.  What you type doesn't
matter, but it is suggested to give your mail address.  Other systems
need a password of 'guest', or something similar.

    After that, you should receive the FTP prompt (usually ftp>), and
now have access.  You can get a directory of files be giving a 'dir'
command, or if the remote system is Unix-based, 'ls -l' will give the
familiar output.  On Simtel20, there is a file available in the
default anonymous ftp directory that explains what Simtel20 is, and
where files are located.  The name is 'SIMTEL-ARCHIVES.INFO.nn, where
".nn" is a file generation number.  You don't need to specify the file
generation number when requesting the file.  In fact, it's better not
to because you will always get the latest generation that way.

    Unix systems will all have the familiar directory structure, and
moving around is done with the familiar 'cd' or 'cwd' command.
TOPS-20 systems have a different structure, but movement is still
accomplished with the 'cd' command.

    I will use Simtel20 as the first example. To start, give the
command 'ftp wsmr-simtel20.army.mil' from your shell prompt, or 'open
wsmr-simtel20.army,mil' from the 'ftp>' prompt.  If this host is not
in your /etc/hosts file or you do not have access to a Domain-name Server,
use '192.88.110.20' in it's place.  After a few seconds, you'll be prompted
for your username.  Type 'anonymous', and when prompted for password,
give your e-mail address (more as a courtesy than anything else), or if
you prefer, 'guest'.  You should then shortly get back the 'ftp>' prompt.
If you receive an error message stating that there are too many anonymous
logins, wait a few minutes and try again. Simtel20 has limited access,
especially during normal business hours.

    Now, say you want to see what is stored for MS-DOS programs.
Simtel20 is a DEC System-20 running the TOPS-20 operating system.  The
directory structure is 'DISK:<DIRECTORY.SUBDIRECTORY>'.  For MS-DOS
programs, the main directory is 'PD1:<MSDOS>'.  In here there is a
file called 'MSDOS.CRCLST', which is updated almost daily.  It
contains a list of all files within the MS-DOS subdirectories, along
with file size and CRC value.

    To get this list, first switch to that directory by saying 'cd
pd1:<msdos>' (TOPS-20 is not case sensitive).  If you are prompted for
another password just ignore the request.  When you get the 'ftp>'
prompt back, you can then say 'get msdos.crclst'.  This will initiate
the transfer, and after a few minutes it will be completed.  The
beauty of Unix is that while you are transfering something big, you
can put it in the background and do something else.

    Say you wanted to get ProComm Plus TD. According to the list, it is
in PD1:<MSDOS.PROCOMM>.  So, you can enter 'cd pd1:<msdos.procomm>'.
A 'dir' will show all the files in that directory.  (You may wish not
to use too many 'dir' commands, as they are sometimes fairly slow).

    Now, you want the file 'pcplustd.arc'.  First, you must tell your
host what kind of file it is.  On most Unix systems, 'binary' or 'set
type binary' or 'set type I' will work.  However, as Simtel20 runs a
different OS that has different word sizes (36 bits) you must specify
'tenex' or 'type L 8' to transfer properly.  You can then issue a 'get
pcplustd.arc' command, and after a short while, you have ProComm Plus TD.
To end your session, enter the 'bye' command.

    Unix is a little more familiar for most people with Internet access.
For example, you might wish to get sources to the ZOO version 2.01
from ftp.uu.net.  First, you give the 'ftp ftp.uu.net' command (or
ftp 137.39.1.9), giving 'anonymous' for the username, and your address
as the password.  You can then use the 'dir' or 'ls -l' commands to scan
the directories.  After some directory searching, you find it is located in
usenet/comp.sources.unix/volume17/zoo2, showing that it was posted in
comp.sources.unix, volume 17. Inside that directory, you find 10 parts,
labelled part01.Z to part10.Z. As told by the .Z suffix, these files are
compressed binary files. You must tell FTP to operate in binary mode, so
type 'binary' or 'type I' to set it. You can then do a 'get' for each file.
Now you have the original sources to ZOO 2.01.

    Different systems have different organizations for their files, and the
above example is just the way I have it set up.  By 'poking' around other
systems, you can learn how their files are set up, and zip around much
faster.  Note, however, that FTP will not allow you outside the FTP 'root'
directory, usually ~ftp on most systems.  So, poking about the entire system
is not permitted.

    You now have a basic understanding of how to use FTP to get the things
you want. I hope this has been of use. Questions and comments welcome.
Other features of FTP can be found in the manual - please check there. My
E-mail address is oneill@cs.ulowell.edu.

    Messages regarding problems, complaints or suggestions for
Simtel20 should be addressed to 'action@wsmr-simtel20.army.mil'.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Oct 1993 11:09:23 +1000
From:    Michael J Fauchon <ulmjf@DEWEY.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: SdKfz. 234 Puma

        Joe,

                You're quite correct : the book you mention was written by
Heinz Werner Schmidt, who was Rommel's adc. The one I have (at home) was
published in London by Harrap in 1980, but it exists in various printings.
It's titled "With Rommel in the desert".

                                                                Cheers,

                                                                Mick.

--                                                                          --
Mick Fauchon                          | Internet: ulmjf@dewey.newcastle.edu.au
Reference Section, Auchmuty Library   | Ph  (intl+61+49) 215861
University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA    | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833


On Thu, 14 Oct 1993, M. Joseph Barone wrote:

> >     "Greif", a griffin, was a command vehicle (Sd.Kfz.250/3) of Rommel's.
> >There were at least two of the same type with different name painted;
> >"Adler" (eagle) and "Igel" (hedgehog).  Fair amount of photographs of
> >"Greif" are available in various books.  Interior photographs are available
> >in a few books about half tracks.
> >      Akira Takiguchi
>
>         I remember reading a book written by an aid to Rommel entitled
> something like, "In the Desert with Rommel".  I believe his surname was
> Schmidt.  Anyway, he mentioned in passing that Rommel's "favorite"
> command vehicle was some monstrous truck captured from the British.
> The book had some photos of it but its name escapes me.  It looked
> like a small moving van or overlarge bread truck.
> --
> Joe Barone
> m1b@rayssd.ssd.ray.com

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 13 Oct 1993 to 14 Oct 1993
*************************************************

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Status: O

There are 14 messages totalling 604 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. INF: Comfort Women Speech
  2. GEN: Sobibor Death Camp Escape Anniversary (3)
  3. USAAF 15 OCT 43
  4. A minor correction re:  F4Fs at Coral Sea/Midway
  5. INF: Chronologies (2)
  6. REF: chronology (3)
  7. WEAP: SdKfz. 234 Puma
  8. USAAF 16-17 OCT 43
  9. ARCH: Naval Chronology

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Oct 1993 23:57:06 -0400
From:    Jonathan Shay <jshay@WORLD.STD.COM>
Subject: Re: INF: Comfort Women Speech

I want to elaborate: the institution of slavery has only been ended if we
refer exclusively to adult males being openly and legally bought and sold.
 This kind of slavery has been eradicated and that *is* worth celebrating.
 But in many parts of the world women and children are still bought and
sold with the collusion of governmental authorities.  We still have hard
work to do.

Jonathan Shay, M.D., Ph.D.

On Thu, 14 Oct 1993, Mike Long wrote:

> To whomever was looking for info,,,,hope this is of interest to ya....
>
> University of Connecticut's Asian American Cultural Center
> presents the natioanl speaking tour of
>
> "COMFORT WOMEN,"
> Amonita Blajadia, & Nelia Sancho
>
> During WWII, it is etimated that as many as 200,000 women were forced
> to become what the Japanese euphemistically speaking called "comfort
> women" - women forcibly conscripted to provide sexual services to the
> Japanese military throughout Asia. On August 5, 1993 the governmant of
> Japan finally admitted responsibility for this sexual enslavement.
> However, they continue to refuse to commit themselves on the question
> of compensation.
>
> Now many of these women are coming forward to tell their stories and to
> demand restitution. One of them is Amonita Balajadia, a 65-year-old
> Filipina leader of the former comfort women.
>
> "I want to make sure that justice is finally done. But more importantly,
> I want to make sure that what happened to me will never happen again to
> any future generations."
>
> Nelia Sancho is a founder and former chairperson of GABRIELA, the first
> nationwide womens coalition of the Philippines and is an outspoken
> proponent for women's human rights. From the rape of women in the former
> Yugoslavia to the increased traficking of women and children worldwide,
> the issue of the comfort women is not just one for the history books but
> is particularly relevant today.
>
> ASIAN AMERICAN CULTURAL CENTER
> 2131 Hillside Road
> Storrs CT
>
> THURSDAY, OCTOBER 28, 1993
>     4 - 6 PM
> Reception to follow the presentation.
>
>
> Regards,
> Mike Long
> 196 AUDITORIUM ROAD, U-138    |   BITNET: MLONG@UCONNVM.BITNET
> STORRS, CONNECTICUT, USA      | INTERNET: MLONG@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU
>                    06269-3138 |    PHONE: (203) 486-1352

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Oct 1993 10:03:51 -0500
From:    Jim Brady <p00954@PSILINK.COM>
Subject: Re: GEN: Sobibor Death Camp Escape Anniversary

>DATE:   Thu, 14 Oct 1993 09:49:44 +0100
>FROM:   Richard Cummings <CUMMINGSR@ADMINA.RFERL.ORG>
>
>For what it is worth, today is the 50th Anniversary of the
>escape of 300 prisoners from the Sobibor Death Camp.
>10 German and 13 Ukrainian guards were killed before the
>escape.  It has been estimated that about 250,000 Jews
>were murdered in the the gas chambers at Sobibor.
>
>Regards from Munich.  Richard.

Richard,
            Thanks for these anniversary notices -- they are profoundly
interesting. You know, I'm a newspaper feature writer and would love to
have a little advance notice, so that I might get together a story that
would appear on time. The above would have been nice to maybe place a
call to some historians, survivors groups, etc. Maybe track down a
picture somewhere. Anyway, as I see you do keep an eye on these dates,
would you mind sending me a notice, if it isn't too much bother?
        Meanwhile, I'll keep reading. Thanks again!
                                           Yours,
                                          Jim Brady
                           *better email address: jim.brady@chrysalis.org





>
>--==oo00oo==--
>cummingsr@rferl.org
>RFE/RL Inc
>Munich,Germany

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Oct 1993 07:23:25 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 15 OCT 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
FRIDAY, 15 OCTOBER 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  F4U, Vought Corsair (USN)
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  Zeke, Mitsubishi A6M, Navy Type 0 Carrier Fighter

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ANTISUBMARINE WARFARE (First Air Force): The 25th and 26th Antisubmarine
Wings are disbanded at New York, New York and Miami, Florida.
  The ground echelon of the 23d Antisubmarine Squadron (Heavy), I Bomber
Command, transfers from Drew Field, Tampa, Florida to Smoky Hill AAFld,
Kansas where they will be disbanded on 6 Nov 43. The air echelon is based
at Edinburgh Field, Trinidad with B-25's with a detachment operating from
Zandery Field, Surinam.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): The 89th Fighter Squadron, 80th Fighter
Group, transfers from Karachi to Gushkara, India with P-40's. A detachment
will operate from Sadiya, India during Oct.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS: HQ U.S. Army Air Forces in United Kingdom
(USAAFUK) is activated to exercise supervision over and provide coordination
between the Eighth and Ninth Air Forces in the UK. Lieutenant General Ira C
Eaker is appointed Commanding General in addition to his duties as Commanding
General Eighth Air Force.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): The 55th Fighter Group (38th,
338th and 343d Fighter Squadrons), a much needed P-38 group group, becomes
operational in the UK.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): B-25's of the XII
Bomber Command hit airfields at Salonika and Megalo Mikra, Greece. In Italy,
XII Air Support Command and other elements of the Northwest African Tactical
Air Force (NATAF) hit roads, railroads, bridges, junctions, railway
facilities, town areas, and motor transport at or near Piedimonte, Vairano,
Termoli, Petacciato, Sparanise, and Civitanova, and hit gun positions and
communications in the general battle area N of the Volturno River.
  HQ 47th Bombardment Group (Light) and it's 84th and 85th Bombardment
Squadron (Light) transfer from Gorttaglie to Vincenzo Airfield, Italy with
A-20's.
  HQ 340th Bombardment Group (Medium) and it's 489th Bombardment Squadron
(Medium) transfer from Catania, Sicily to San Pancrazio, Italy with B-25's.
  The detachment of the 71st Fighter Squadron, 1st Fighter Group, operating
from Gambut, Libya with P-38's returns to it's base at Mateur, Tunisia.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, 21 B-24's, 12 P-38's, and 17 US Navy F4U's pound Kahili Airfield
supply and personnel areas on Bougainville Island. 6 Zekes are claimed shot
down. During the late evening B-25's bomb the airfield on Buka Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea,
50+ P-38's and P-40's intercept around 100 Japanese aircraft attacking
Allied shipping in Oro Bay; the US fighters claim 40+ shot down; 4 other
P-40's, encountering 20+ Japanese airplanes E of Finschhafen, claim 5
destroyed; and 70+ medium bombers hit positions and villages from Sio to
Saidor. 6 B-24's bomb Boela on Ceram Island in the Moluccas Islands.
  HQ 22d Bombardment Group and it's 33d and 408th Bombardment Squadrons
(Medium) transfer from Australia to Dobodura, New Guinea with B-25's; the
22d and 33d transfer from Woodstock, Australia and the 408th from Reid River,
Australia.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Oct 1993 08:34:42 EDT
From:    "William B. Thacker" <wbt@CBEMF.ATT.COM>
Subject: Re: GEN: Sobibor Death Camp Escape Anniversary

Jim Brady writes:

>             Thanks for these anniversary notices -- they are profoundly
> interesting. You know, I'm a newspaper feature writer and would love to
> have a little advance notice, so that I might get together a story that
> would appear on time.

There are a number of references available that provide a chronology of the
war's events.  I would recommend three in particular to anyone looking for
such information:

C.Argyle, _Chronology of World War II_
C.Salmaggi and A.Pallavisini, _2194 Days of War_
R.Goralski, _World War II Almanac, 1931-1945_

Of these, the first two are somewhat better; the third, though, adds some
very interesting information (including a selection of one-paragraph
biographies) not found in the others.

Each gives a day-by-day account, with a summary of that day's events.


Alternately, since Jim works for a newspaper, I should think he would have
ready access to microfilms of 50-year-old newspapers.  They're not as easy
to use; for one thing, many interesting events were not widely known or
understood at the time, and others were kept secret.  On the other hand
they provide some very interesting "trivia" that adds color to history.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
(614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              wbt@cbemf.att.com
                      Humpty Dumpty was pushed!

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Oct 1993 09:58:56 -0500
From:    John Lundstrom <jl@CSD4.CSD.UWM.EDU>
Subject: Re: A minor correction re:  F4Fs at Coral Sea/Midway

Lou,
        F4F-4s (folding wings, six guns, reduced ammo) disliked by some F4F-3
pilots, but difference in performance between the two vis-a-vis the Zero was
negligible. Best thing with F4F-4, a carrier could handle twice as many as
with the fixed-wing F4F-3.
        Regarding SB2C Helldiver, many dive bomber pilots preferred the old
SBD (in 1943 Jocko Clark on the second Yorktown even switched his SB2Cs for
SBDs without authorization), but later models of SB2Cs were much liked for
bigger bomb load and firepower.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Oct 1993 10:59:18 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: INF: Chronologies

>
> There are a number of references available that provide a chronology of the
> war's events.  I would recommend three in particular to anyone looking for
> such information:

> C.Argyle, _Chronology of World War II_
> C.Salmaggi and A.Pallavisini, _2194 Days of War_
> R.Goralski, _World War II Almanac, 1931-1945_

Besides Bill's refs, you can check byrd for the U.S. Navy's Chronology of
World War II, which is public domain. Details on request.

Larry J

JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Oct 1993 12:57:47 -0400
From:    "Mr. Scott Hannon" <hannon@UMBC.EDU>
Subject: REF: chronology

Bill Thacker writes:
>There are a number of references available that provide a chronology of the
>war's events...

>R.Goralski, _World War II Almanac, 1931-1945_

>Each gives a day-by-day account, with a summary of that day's events.

I have this one. While it is fairly nice, it does have its share of
so-bad-its-funny goofs. Check out Jan 1 1945 and see what it says about
NORDWIND. It doesn't even get the front right.  :-)

For the 50th anneveray of WW2 (1989), a number of altas/chronology books
were released by various publishers (all trying to cash in on an expected
WW2 craze I guess). Charles Messenger's book is quite nice, covering the
entire war on a monthly basis. The maps and text lack detail, but seeing
the whole war with a global perspective I found quite nice.

For those interested in the US Army in WW2, the Army's _Chronology_ in
the "green" series is very nice. It covers the war day by day on all the
fronts where US troops were engaged. Its not without typos and minor
errors, but the work involved in putting this thing together must have
been massive...I'm impressed! I don't know for sure, but I'd assume it is
still for sale from the US GPO for a reasonable price.

Scott.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Oct 1993 13:33:39 -0400
From:    Akira Takiguchi <akira@ATSON.ASAHI-NP.CO.JP>
Subject: Re: WEAP: SdKfz. 234 Puma

Bill Huber:
>It's a critter called the "Mammoth" and I recall reading the same
>thing.  Rommel was able to spread out his maps on a table and study
>his options better than in the narrow confines of his hanomag.

     Something to add: two "Mammoth" (Associated Equipment Co. Ltd, type
Matador, so nicknamed by German soldiers) were captured by the Germans
and given the names "Max" and "Moritz" respectively.
--
      Akira Takiguchi  VP, ATSON, Inc.  (a subsidiary of the Asahi Shimbun)
             CANAL TOWER  9-3 Nihonbashi-Koamicho Chuo-ku Tokyo 103  Japan
   +81 3 3666 2881(voice) 2882(fax)  EMAIL TO <akira@atson.asahi-np.co.jp>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Oct 1993 14:48:36 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 16-17 OCT 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss

SATURDAY, 16 OCTOBER 1943

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS: The Joint Chiefs of Staff send a proposed
directive to General Dwight D Eisenhower, submitted by General Henry H
"Hap" Arnold on 9 Oct, for the establishment of a new Air Force (the
Fifteenth) in Italy to be used when needed as part of the Combined Bomber
Offensive (CBO) against strategic targets in Germany.

CENTRAL PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Seventh Air Force): HQ 41st
Bombardment Group (Medium) arrives at Hickam Field, Oahu, Territory of
Hawaii from the US.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): Fighter patrols are increased from 4 to 8
aircraft with little effect on enemy marauders over the Hump. 3 A-36's fail
to return from a mission over Sumprabum, Burma.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In the United Kingdom, HQ Ninth
Air Force is established at Sunninghill as a tactical Air Force with
Lieutenant General Lewis H Brereton as Commanding General. The 3d Bombardment
Wing at Marks Hall is transferred from the VIII Air Support Command, Eighth Air
Force to the IX Bomber Command commanded by Major General Frederick L Anderson.
(HQ IX Bomber Command will not be established in England until Nov 43.)  The
four B-26 groups transferred are:
  322d Bombardment Group (Medium) [449th, 450th, 451st and 452d Bombardment
       Squadrons (Medium)]
  323d Bombardment Group (Medium) [453d, 454th, 455th and 456th Bombardment
       Squadrons (Medium)]
  387th Bombardment Group (Medium) [556th, 557th, 558th and 559th Bombardment
       Squadrons (Medium)]
  388th Bombardment Group (Medium) [560th, 561st, 562d and 563d Bombardment
       Squadrons (Medium)]
The IX Troop Carrier Command is activated at Cottesmore with Brigadier General
Benjamin F Giles as Commanding General; the 315th Troop Carrier Group (34th and
43d Troop Carrier Squadrons with C-47's) is transferred from from the Eighth
Air Force; and the 434th Troop Carrier Group and it's 71st, 72d, 73d and 74th
Troop Carrier Squadrons that arrived on 9 Oct are also assigned. The IX Air
Service Command is re-formed under Major General Henry J Miller.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): P-38's bomb a vessel
in Leukas Channel off the W coast of Greece. In Italy, XII Bomber Command
B-25's bomb the marshalling yard and rail lines, railroad tunnel, highway
underpass, warehouses, industrial buildings, and gas works in or near Bologna;
XII Air Support Command and other Northwest African Tactical Air Force (NATAF)
elements provide close support to the US Fifth and British Eighth Armies;
fighters and light and medium bombers hit communications centers of Venafro,
Vairano, Sparanise, Latina, Alife, and the town of Pietravairano; roads,
railroads, and junctions in the areas SE of Rome to the bomb line, between
Vasto and Pescara, and at Mondragone; gun positions, trucks, and military
concentrations near Vinchiaturo, Boiano, and Termoli; landing ground of
Cisterna di Latina; and several other targets in the area between Rome and
Ancona.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, 8 B-24's bomb Kara Airfield on Bougainville Island. 6 B-25's hit
the airfield on Ballale Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea,
60+ B-25's attack the Alexishafen area, hit coastal targets between Reiss
Point and Sio, and bomb the airfield at Wewak. A-20's bomb and strafe Gasmata
Island off New Britain Island. A lone B-24 destroys a patrol craft between
Hoskins and Rabaul on New Britain Island.

SUNDAY, 17 OCTOBER 1943

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ANTISUBMARINE WARFARE (First Air Force): The 15th Antisubmarine Squadron
(Heavy), Second Air Force, is transferred from Jacksonville AAFld, Florida
to Wendover Field, Utah where it will be disbanded on 2 Nov 43.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): Heavy and medium bombers bomb Naba, Burma.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 7 B-24's bomb Htawgaw, Burma.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): HQ 50th Troop Carrier Wing arrives
at Cottesmore, England from the US.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): Weather prevents
operations by the XII Bomber Command. US and Royal Air Force (RAF) units of
the Northwest African Tactical Air Force (NATAF) operate at a reduced pace.
In Italy, light and medium bombers hit the towns of Teano and Alife and motor
transport at Benedello, Penna, and Pedesso; fighter-bombers bomb and strafe
troops, trucks, guns, train stations, and a bridge near Vinchiaturo, Benedello,
Teramo, and Sparanise; other fighters strafe locomotives S of Ancona.
  The 97th Bombardment Squadron (Light), 47th Bombardment Group (Light),
transfers from Grottaglie to Vincenzo Airfield, Italy with A-20's.
  The 99th Fighter Squadron, XII Air Support Command, transfers from
Barcellona, Sicily to Foggia, Italy with P-40's.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 18
A-20's and B-25's bomb and strafe Sattelberg and 7 B-25's hit Wewak and Boram
Airfield with a low-level attack during which 15 aircraft are destroyed on the
ground and 4 claimed shot down. 4 P-39's intercept 18 airplanes attacking
Finschhafen, claiming 6 shot down. 40+ fighters intercept a large group of
enemy aircraft attempting to attack Oro Bay; US fighters claim 24 shot down. 6
B-24's bomb Ternate Island in the Moluccas, a 2,200-mile (3,520 km) round trip.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Oct 1993 13:49:41 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: INF: Chronologies

Larry,

Would greatly appreciate info on access to Navy's chronology of war.



Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Oct 1993 15:13:36 -0500
From:    Jim Brady <p00954@PSILINK.COM>
Subject: Re: GEN: Sobibor Death Camp Escape Anniversary

Bill,
       Thanks for the suggestions (checking newspaper microfilm for
WWII trivia/events/anniversaries). As you say, it does have limitations
but also gives some ideas.
                              Jim

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Oct 1993 19:18:37 -0400
From:    Bob Smart <bsmart@SMART.COM>
Subject: Re: REF: chronology

> Bill Thacker writes:
> been massive...I'm impressed! I don't know for sure, but I'd assume it is
> still for sale from the US GPO for a reasonable price.
>
> Scott.
 Yes it is I just picked it up a couple months ago at the GPO in Laurel.
The updated Military History Subject List is also available from them now.

Larry I promise I will mail you one, maybe you can scan it in and put it
online.

A fair number of the Green books are still available. Breakout and Pursuit is
NOT :-( and I was told there are no plans to reprint. I take that with a shread
of hope at least on volume was shown as newly reprinted and available in both
cloth & paper binding. The Subject Guide for the Geen books is only available
in paper bound edition with what appears to be a new cover tagged 50th
anniverery edition. I was over there about a week ago and picked up about 7
books (spent ~$150, don't let my wife know)

When I get home I can put out details about the chronolgy volume and how to get
the subject guide to order books from

Bob Smart (bsmart@smart.com)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Oct 1993 19:59:20 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: REF: chronology

>  Yes it is I just picked it up a couple months ago at the GPO in Laurel.
> The updated Military History Subject List is also available from them now.
>
> Larry I promise I will mail you one, maybe you can scan it in and put it
> online.

Copacetic. I've just gained access to a very nice flat-bed scanner so all I
need is time to fiddle with the file. Shouldn't take too long.

Larry J


JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Oct 1993 20:43:42 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: ARCH: Naval Chronology

The United States Naval Chronology of World War II, 1955 edition is available
from:
byrd.mu.wvnet.edu
/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology

The book is broken into sections with the following file names, corresponding
to calendar years:
preface.txt
chr39.txt
chr40.txt
chr41.txt
chr42.txt
chr43.txt
chr44.txt
chr45.txt

The entire file is compressed into a single zip file:
navchr.zip

The book is in the public domain.

The International Naval Chronology of World War II is in progress. This will
be based on the above work but will cover all naval actions during the war
(no, I'm not crazy, I really will make a valiant attempt to cover the naval
war to the best of my ability. The current file is about twice the size of
the US chronology and EVERY additional entry will have attributions from
at least two sources. Hey, everybody's got to have a hobby, yes? ;-)

Larry J

JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 14 Oct 1993 to 15 Oct 1993
*************************************************

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There is one message totalling 18 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Thanks, John.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 16 Oct 1993 17:12:19 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Thanks, John.

Thanks, John (Lundstrom).  I'll take that as definitive (although I had
  thought there WAS a noticeable difference in performance between the
  -3 and  -4.)

What did the Marines use on Guadalcanal (flying from Henderson Field)?
  Were -3s transferred to the Marines?  (or were there enough left to
  transfer?)

That sounds like Jocko Clark!  Did he get any heat for his "initiative?""

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 15 Oct 1993 to 16 Oct 1993
*************************************************

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There are 3 messages totalling 81 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. GEN - Cannibalism and Casualty Counts
  2. Weap: Grenades vs AFV's
  3. Cannibalism in the Pacific

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 17 Oct 1993 15:12:00 LCL
From:    Jeff Olson <jeff.olson@TFD.COPLEX.COM>
Subject: GEN - Cannibalism and Casualty Counts

Came across a reference that US troops discovered what appeared to be
instances of cannibalism on Mount Austen on Guadalcanal by Japanese
front line soldiers in December 1942.  (one sentence in the 'green
book' relating to the Guadalcanal campaign) Has this ever been
substantiated?  Were there ever any other instances where this was
reported to have occurred in other campaigns?

Regarding casualties: Did the US only count as casualties those who
had been killed or wounded as the result of hostile action or were
those incapacited by diseases (malaria) or accidents also counted if
they were unable to continue to fight?  It appears the Japanese counted
non-hostile figures in their casualty counts.
---
. 1st 1.11 #1611 . jeff.olson@tfd.coplex.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 17 Oct 1993 21:02:32 CST
From:    "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer,
         Tim A." <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Weap: Grenades vs AFV's

I saw something I thought rather silly going on at the WWIIHRS National
Battle, and I wanted to get some expert opions on the subject.

We had a fair number of armored vehicles at the WWIIHRS National Battle
at Camp Atterbury the weekend before this past one.  It seemed to me
that every yahoo with a hand grenade thought he could wipe out a tank
with it.  I know this is unrealistic, and probably those who tried it in
real life are few and far between today because it seems to be a game
for the brave or foolish.

What kind of effects can a normal hand held, or launched grenade (from a
rifle) have on an AFV.  I am not speaking of the occupants of the
vehicle.  I am also not referring to getting one inside the vehicle.
The results of that are obvious.  I am talking about outside the
vehicle.  What kind of track damage, engine damage, vision port damage,
or any other kind of damage could be incurred.

If you want some vehicles to use, specifically I saw it in referrence to
Stuart tanks, a Hetzer, and a Sdkz. 222.  We could broaden it to include
the T-34, Mk IV, and Sherman as well.

 I know armored cars are more vulnerable because of their tires, but
what kind of track damage would happen, and how much would it immobilize
the vehicle.

Anybody got any ideas, or even better--access to some hard data about
this.

Thanks---Tim

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 17 Oct 1993 22:54:26 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Cannibalism in the Pacific

Jeff,

     There was an instance on Ie Shima, off the coast of Okinawa, where a
U.S. pilot was eaten by the Japanese, at the orders of the Japanese CO (if
I remember correctly).  The Japanese officer was tried, convicted, and
hanged as a war criminal.  It should be in Morison.

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 16 Oct 1993 to 17 Oct 1993
*************************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 17 Oct 1993 to 18 Oct 1993
To: Recipients of WWII-L digests <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
Status: O

There are 27 messages totalling 1421 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. GEN - Cannibalism (9)
  2. Weap: Grenades vs AFV's (3)
  3. REF: cannibalism
  4. USAAF 18 OCT 43
  5. New Moscow study trips
  6. REF: chronology (2)
  7. USAF News
  8. INF: Video catalog
  9. USAAF 19-31 OCT
 10. USAAF 19 OCT 43
 11. USAAF 20-23 OCT 43
 12. USAAF 24-31 OCT 43
 13. Search of coding methods
 14. ARCH: Center for Military History Catalog
 15. The "Philadelphia Experiment"
 16. Type numbers for USN fighters

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 Oct 1993 15:39:49 EST
From:    murnaind@DRAKEN.BHPESE.OZ.AU
Subject: Re: GEN - Cannibalism

There are documented reports of cannibalism by Japanese soldiers from the
Kokoda campaign in New Guinea. The reports mention meat found being
identified as human, and POWs mentioning that they had eaten human flesh
to survive. For futher info. refer to 'Blood and Iron' by Lex McAulay. 'Bloody
Buna' may contain references, but I can't say because I haven't read it. ( Any
decent reference on the New Guinea campiagn should mention it.)

David M.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 Oct 1993 00:56:07 EST
From:    Denis <OUELLETT@UCS.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Weap: Grenades vs AFV's

I would think that the typical defensive hand grenade, such as the US Mk2
Pineapple, would have very little effect, having only about 2 ounces of
explosive. The main effect comes from the fragments of course, but being
of irregular shape and made of cast iron these would have virtually no armour
penetrating ability.  Perhaps a very lucky placement might damage some
vital part like a view port, but it doesn't seem that much trak damage could
occur.  For that you would need much more significant amount of explosive
or a shaped charge.  Most antitank mines would have as a minimum at least
5 pounds of TNT or equivalent - the German Tellermine having 11 pounds
and the Russian TM-41 having 9 pounds (BTW if anyone has any comments about
the Russian dog antitank mine let me know - did they have any success with
this method?)
The Germans did have a method of taking out T-34s with the Steilhandgranate
which was to unscrew half a dozen of them from the stick leaving the business
end and taping them around a whole grenade wih wire or tape.  Tossed onto
the back of a T-34 it was sufficient to take out the engine.
The British and Americans had rifle launched AT grenades with hollow charges,
which were supposed to be able to penetrate 2 or 3 inches of armour at
up to 100 yards - but for some reason these figures seem rather optomistic
and I imagine that AT work was usually left to the Bazooka and Piat teams.
In addition their were a number of hand thrown AT grenades. The inherent
risk of getting close enough to actually use one suggests that not to many
of these actually found their mark, but if anyone has info to the contrary
please let me know.

Denis Ouellette
ouellett@ucs.indiana.edu
Indiana University School of Business

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 Oct 1993 11:02:34 +0200
From:    Chris Scogings <cscoging@UNPCS1.CS.UNP.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: GEN - Cannibalism

There is a book, by a Japanese author, called "Fires on the Plain".  It is
the story of some infantry cut off in New Guinea, who resorted to
cannibalism to survive.  I can't remember whether the book purports to be
true or not.  It's been a while since I read it.

Chris
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Scogings                      Voice: (27) 331 955645
Computer Science Dept                 Fax: (27) 331 955599
University of Natal
Pietermaritzburg                   E-Mail:cscoging@unpcs1.cs.unp.ac.za
----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 Oct 1993 07:24:41 EDT
From:    Robert E George <regeorge@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Subject: REF: cannibalism

There is some mention of cannibalism by IJA personnel
in "Soldiers of the Sun", a recent (1992? 1991?) book on the
IJA

Rob George

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 Oct 1993 07:39:25 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 18 OCT 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
MONDAY, 18 OCTOBER 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-4, Lockheed Lightning
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): The 406th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), Fourth
Air Force, departs Elmendorf Field, Anchorage for the US. The squadron will
transition from B-25's to B-24's and arrive in England on 2 Nov 43.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): The 530th Fighter-Bomber Squadron, 311th
Fighter-Bomber Group, transfers from Nawadih to Dinjan, India with A-36's.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): The 369th Fighter Squadron, 359th
Fighter Group, arrives at East Wretham, England from the US with P-47's. The
squadron will fly it's first mission on 13 Dec 43.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 228 B-26's dispatched to bomb 4
airfields in France are recalled before attacking because of unfavorable
weather. Major General Elwood R "Pete" Quesada becomes Commanding General
of the IX Fighter Command.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): XII Bomber Command
B-25's bomb the marshalling yard at Skoplje, Yugoslavia; P-38's follow with
a strafing mission, damaging or destroying several locomotives and vehicles.
In Italy, XII Air Support Command A-36's hit the Venafro railroad yards, and
other fighter-bombers hit gun positions, troops, and railway stations in or
near Boiano, Petacciato, and Vairano. Fighters strafe airfields around Rome and
also hit Viterbo, Grosseto, and the seaplane base at Bracciano, and attack
trains on the Rome-Orte and Rome-Naples, Italy lines. Northwest African
Tactical Bomber Force (NATBF) light bombers bomb the road and railway near
Cassino, the town of Carpinone, the road junction at Castiglione della Valle,
and roads, bridges, and motor transport near Minturno and Chieti.
  HQ 316th Troop Carrier Group transfers from Mazzara to Borizzo, Sicily.
  The 4th Troop Carrier Squadron, 62d Troop Carrier Group, transfers from
Gela to Catania, Sicily with C-47's.
  The 12th Photographic Squadron (Light), 3d Photographic Reconnaissance
and Mapping Group, based at La Marsa, Tunisia with F-4's and F-5's, sends a
detachment to operate from Ajaccio/Camp del Oro, Corsica.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, 28 B-24's and 40+ US Navy dive bombers, with cover of 50+ fighters,
hit the airfield on Ballale Island. 14 P-39's join 20+ US Navy aircraft in a
strike on Kakasa village and a tent area on Choiseul Island.
  The 70th Fighter Squadron, 18th Fighter Group, transfers from Guadalcanal
Island to New Georgia Island with P-39's.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): On New Britain
Island in the Bismarck Archipelago, nearly 80 B-24's and fighters sent against
Rabaul on New Britain Island are forced to abort by bad weather; however, 50+
B-25's slip beneath low clouds and pound the town, airfields, and shipping
from treetop and mast-height level; the B-25's sink 2 vessels and claim 70+
planes destroyed on the ground and in the air; 13 of the B-24's bomb Cape
Hoskins; 7 others bomb Cape Gloucester and hit Sio, New Guinea. B-25's bomb
and strafe a road at Bogadjim, New Guinea.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 Oct 1993 05:31:44 PDT
From:    Eric Fenster <efenster@IGC.APC.ORG>
Subject: New Moscow study trips

  I have been invited to bring more groups on study trips to Moscow in 1994.

==> Many people in the past said they could only go in the summer, and I've
finally persuaded our Russian hosts to organize a course then.

The trips will be of two kinds:

1) "Fact-finding missions" which probe Russia's political, economic and
social issues.
2) Intensive Russian language courses.

 The schedule is below.  Please request details by E-mail so as not to
clutter this discussion/conference with replies: efenster@igc.apc.org


Fact-finding missions
1) 01 May-21 May
2) 19 May-18 Jun (4 credits from Eastern Michigan University possible)
3) 21 Jun-15 Jul (6 credits or CEUs from Minnespolis Community College
possible)
4) 28 Jul-23 Aug

NB If there is interest expressed quickly, I could take a group from 11-26
March.

Russian language
1) 27 May-02 Jul (beginning level; other levels could be organized)

 All interested adults are eligible, not just "students," and there's usually
a large range of age, background and geographical origin (N. America, Europe,
etc.). Especially valuable for teachers, journalists, business people and
other needing country familiarization.

 I have also written notes about the situation in Russia based upon
observations made during trips there this year. The file (about 27K) is
available on request.
-----

What's the point?

 The Moscow events in early October probably convinced many people that
Russia's future is still linked with ours.  But there's more:

--the political changes in Italy, made possible by the fall of the USSR;
positive, so far, but they could lead to the break-up of Italy
--the political changes in Japan, made possible by the fall of the USSR
--the conflict in the Gulf
--wars in ex-Yugoslavia
--wars in Moldova, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaizhan, Tadjikistan
--the Israeli-Palestinian peace process, amde possible (necessary?) by the
end of the Cold War (Rabin himself said so)
--the economic crisis in Europe,hostage to anti-inflation policies in a
Germany trying to absorb its eastern regions
--possibilities that low-cost Russian labor ($30/month average) competes with
Western jobs as investment develops
--major new production of addictive drugs; new transport routes into Europe
and USA
--major expansion of organized crime, linking Russian, Italian, American,
other racketeers
--danger (imminent?) of leakage into world's water of radioactive wastes from
Soviet nuclear weapons
--emergence of new economic community, rich in oil and gas, led by Turkey
(with involvement of Iran)
--overflow of other environmental pollutants from xUSSR borders; new vectors
for spreading AIDS by major international prositutiion rings

and so on.

But there's more...
 People in Russia told me: In your country, the members of your government
spend all their time thinking about what they can do to make life better for
the people. [sic]
 Well, maybe, but as Russians decide their new political and eocnomic
structures, they need to base them on reality, not fantasy models. So our
presence means two-way learning.
NB People on the 1-21 May trip will participate in the
annual observance of the victory in WW2 (May 9).

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 Oct 1993 08:00:41 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: GEN - Cannibalism

>
> There are documented reports of cannibalism by Japanese soldiers from the
> Kokoda campaign in New Guinea. The reports mention meat found being
> identified as human, and POWs mentioning that they had eaten human flesh
> to survive. For futher info. refer to 'Blood and Iron' by Lex McAulay. 'Bloody
> Buna' may contain references, but I can't say because I haven't read it. ( Any
> decent reference on the New Guinea campiagn should mention it.)

For an example of cannibalism in the Japanese ranks, try the book and movie
"Fires on the Plain".  I believe the setting is Burma.  The film is a classic
of the Japanese cinema.  If I'm not mistaken it's based on the experiences of
real people.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 Oct 1993 08:52:48 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <kc5318@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: REF: chronology

>> Bill Thacker writes:
>> been massive...I'm impressed! I don't know for sure, but I'd assume it is
>> still for sale from the US GPO for a reasonable price.
>>
>> Scott.
> Yes it is I just picked it up a couple months ago at the GPO in Laurel.
>The updated Military History Subject List is also available from them now.
>
>Larry I promise I will mail you one, maybe you can scan it in and put it
>online.
>
>A fair number of the Green books are still available. Breakout and Pursuit is
>NOT :-( and I was told there are no plans to reprint. I take that with a shrea
d
>of hope at least on volume was shown as newly reprinted and available in both
>cloth & paper binding. The Subject Guide for the Geen books is only available
>in paper bound edition with what appears to be a new cover tagged 50th
>anniverery edition. I was over there about a week ago and picked up about 7
>books (spent ~$150, don't let my wife know)
>
>When I get home I can put out details about the chronolgy volume and how to ge
t
>the subject guide to order books from
>
>Bob Smart (bsmart@smart.com)
>

I recently talked with Martin Blumenson, who wrote BREAKOUT AND PURSUIT.  He
has a new book out that updates his earlier work to some degree, and in fact is
much more critical of some generals, especially Bradley.  I believe it is
called THE WAR BETWEEN THE GENERALS or something to that effect.

                                                       LTC Con Crane
                                                       USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 Oct 1993 09:24:47 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAF News

WORLD WAR II PILOT RECOGNIZED AFTER 49 YEARS

COURTESY HEADQUARTERS AIR FORCE RESERVE PUBLIC AFFAIRS

ROBINS AFB, GA.
     It took 49 years, but former captain Jerome C. Stannard finally
received his official recognition for extraordinary aerial flight
achievement during World War II.
     On Sept. 13, 1944, after two senior flight leaders were forced to
abandon the mission, Stannard, piloting a P-47 Thunderbolt, braved
heavy anti-aircraft fire and led a successful group bombing mission
over a German airfield.
     The captain, assigned to the 48th Fighter Group, returned to the
United States on Thanksgiving Day in 1944, and in December, the
Army Air Corps' Headquarters at 9th Air Force issued the general
order to award Stannard the Distinguished Flying Cross.  Stannard's
September achievement was just one of several exceptionally
dangerous missions.
     Upon return to the United States, he served as a gunnery
instructor at Galveston, Texas, until he separated from service in
September 1945, with 1,200 flying hours and 76 combat missions to
his credit.  He moved to Michigan where he and his wife, Patricia,
raised six sons.  He later retired after 37 years with Michigan Bell
Telephone Co.
     "With the moving, I didn't give much thought to it," said the 76-
year-old Stannard, now a resident of Port St. Luce, Fla., referring to
not previously receiving the award.
     Then, in 1992, one of his sons, Dr. Sean Stannard, a resident of
West Bloomfield, Mich., decided to see his father appropriately
recognized.  After many inquiries and much persistence, the son's
efforts were rewarded.  "The medal came in the same day my father
arrived from Florida for a visit."
     But Dr. Stannard didn't stop there.  With medal in hand, he
requested assistance from the 927th Air Refueling Group at Selfridge
Air National Guard base, Mich., to arrange a presentation ceremony.
The initiative resulted in a ceremony and award presentation by Col.
Thomas R. Brown, 927th commander.
     In recognizing Stannard's selfless duty to this country, Brown
said, "This country of ours owes a great debt to Captain Stannard,
and those who served with him."
     Hopefully, the country never will.  (AFNS Features)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 Oct 1993 08:44:55 -0500
From:    John Lundstrom <jl@CSD4.CSD.UWM.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN - Cannibalism

Regarding cannibalism by Japanese soldiers in WWII, see also two older
books:
        Raymond Paull, Retreat from Kokoda (Melbourne, 1958, reprinted
1982) and Arthur Swinson, Four Samurai (London, 1968).
Paull used captured Japanese diaries extensively and remains one of the
best books on Kokoda. Swinson talks about ritual cannibalism in Burma
1944-45 and mentions the infamous Col. Masanobu Tsuji.

John Lundstrom
Milwaukee Public Museum
jl@csd4.csd.uwm.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 Oct 1993 09:52:18 -0400
From:    "M. Joseph Barone" <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: Weap: Grenades vs AFV's

Denis Ouellette writes:
> (BTW if anyone has any comments about
> the Russian dog antitank mine let me know - did they have any success with
> this method?)

        In the early part of the war, the Soviets were experimenting
with many different anti-tank methods.  One such was to strap two
saddlebags, each with 13 pounds of explosives, onto dogs with a
plunger-type detonator with a safety pin.  The dogs would only be
fed exclusively under running tanks with their saddlebags strapped
on them (shades of Pavlov's experiments).  While the safety pin was
in place, there was little danger of a training mishap.  Eventually
the dogs would become accustomed to the noise of a tank and knew to
crawl under a tank to search for food.  Then the animals would be
starved for a couple of days and moved to the battlefront.  There,
the safety pin would be removed and the dogs would be released in the
direction of German armor formations.  The dogs would close with the
unsuspecting Germans and crawl under their tanks, detonating their
payloads with devastating results.

        At first the Germans were unaware of what what going on.  After
a while, though, they had discovered dogs killed in the vicinity of
an action before the dogs could detonate and the Germans noted their
deadly cargo.  To the Germans, a dog loving people, this struck them
as bizarre and inhumane (talk about pots and kettles!).  Soon, German
sharpshooters were picking off any dogs that they came upon.

        As it turned out, by the time the Germans were countering this
strategy, the Soviets stopped using the dogs.  The reason for their
retirement was that, as more Russian armor became available, the dogs
had a tendency to crawl under the closer vehicles!  Compounding this
problem was the fact that the dogs could differentiate between the
German gasoline smell and the Soviet diesel smell and opted for the
familiar scent used in their training!
--
Joe Barone
m1b@rayssd.ssd.ray.com
Look, we're not worried about the German Army, we've got enough troubles
of our own!  To the right, General Patton; to the left, the British Army;
to the rear, our own goddamn artillery; and besides all that, it's raining!
And the only good thing to say about the weather, it keeps our Air Corp
from blowing us all to hell because it's too lousy to fly!

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 Oct 1993 10:35:02 -0400
From:    "M. Joseph Barone" <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: INF: Video catalog

        Over the weekend, I received a 48-page video catalog of military
documentaries and movies.  It had titles addressing the ACW, WWI, WWII,
and Vietnam, with emphasis on WWII.  They seem to have a decent selection
of titles but I'm sure that there are many gaps.  (They *do* have "The
Bridge at Remagen" movie and documentary.  Despite Ben Gazarra hamming
it up, this movie is one of my personal favorites.)  Anyway, if anyone
(in the US, anyway, and perhaps North America) is interested in receiving
a catalog, their number is 1-800-959-0061.  The company is Fusion Video,
100 Fusion Way, Country Club Hills, IL 60478.  I've never done business
with them, so I can't vouch for them.
--
Joe Barone
m1b@rayssd.ssd.ray.com
Crap Game: 14,000 gold bars!  Where are they?
    Kelly: In a bank...
Crap Game: In a bank?  Aren't you getting a little ambitious?
    Kelly: ...behind enemy lines.
Crap Game: Behind enemy lines... This could be the perfect crime!

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 Oct 1993 12:53:58 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 19-31 OCT

I will be going on vacation tomorrow so I am posting the USAAF Combat
Chronologies for 19-31 Oct 43 today.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 Oct 1993 12:57:05 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 19 OCT 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
TUESDAY, 19 OCTOBER 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  Hudson, Lockheed
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  Ventura, Lockheed

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): The 1st Troop Carrier Squadron, Tenth Air
Force, transfers from New Delhi to Sookerating, India with C-47's.
  The 529th Fighter-Bomber Squadron, 311th Fighter-Bomber Group, transfers
from Nawadih to Dinjan, India with A-36's.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): HQ 359th Fighter Group and it's
369th Fighter Squadron arrives at East Wretham, England from the US with
P-47's. The group will fly it's first mission on 13 Dec 43.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, during a
low-level raid, XII Bomber Command B-24's bomb bridges at Porto Civitanova,
S of Porto Sant' Elpidio, N of Pedaso, and N of Cupra Marittima; fighters,
fighter-bombers, and light bombers of the XII Air Support Command,
Northwest African Tactical Bomber Force (NATBF), and Royal Air Force (RAF)
Desert Air Force (DAF) attack the town of Boiano, gun positions and troop
concentrations on the outskirts of town, and an ammunition dump and
railroad tunnel nearby, Viterbo and Tarquinia landing fields, the towns of
Cassino and Anzio, the railroad N of Pesaro and near Pineto, trains near
Barisciano, troops near Mintumo, and vehicles at several points.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, Kara and Kahili Airfields on Bougainville Island are hit by
B-24's, Venturas, P-38's, P-40's, and US Navy fighters and dive bombers.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): On New Guinea,
A-20's and Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) airplanes hit Sattelberg and
surrounding areas and bomb Gasmata Island off New Britain Island; enemy air
raid against Finschhafen causes no effective damage. B-25's and RAAF Hudsons
bomb Fuiloro on Timor Island.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 Oct 1993 13:01:59 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 20-23 OCT 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  Boomerang, Commonwealth Aircraft Corp (RAAF)
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F4U, Vought Corsair (USN)
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  Ventura, Lockheed

WEDNESDAY, 20 OCTOBER 1943

CENTRAL PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Seventh Air Force): HQ 30th
Bombardment Group (Heavy) and it's 27th, 38th and 392d Bombardment Squadrons
(Heavy) arrive at Hickam Field, Moluleia Field, Kahuku and Barking Sands,
Territory of Hawaii respectively from the US with B-24's.
  The 396th and 820th Bombardment Squadrons (Medium), 41st Bombardment Group
(Medium) arrive at Hickam Field, Oahu, Territory of Hawaii from the US with
B-25's.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): The bridge at Meza, Burma, being repaired
after being damaged severely on 10 Oct, is attacked and damaged by B-25's.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): VIII Bomber Command Mission 116.
The industrial area at Duren, Germany is the primary target. 97 of 170 B-17's
hit the primary target at 1413-1416 bombing from 30,000-feet (48,000 m)
because the cloud tops were at 29,500-feet (47,200 m); the 1st Bombardment
Division uses Oboe PFF for the first time but the equipment fails and 60
aircraft return to base without bombing; 42 of the 1st Bombardment Division's
aircraft hit Woensdrecht Airfield in the Netherlands as a target of
opportunity; and 70 B-24's fly a diversion; the totals are 4-1-1 Luftwaffe
aircraft claimed; 9 B-17's lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 10 damaged;
casualties are 4 KIA (including 3 gunners who died from oxygen system failure),
2 WIA and 85 MIA.
  VIII Bomber Command Mission 117: During the night of 20/21 Oct, 5 B-17's
drop 876,960 leaflets over Roen and Paris at 2211-2217 hours.
  HQ 358th Fighter Group and it's 365th, 366th and 367th Fighter Squadrons
arrive at Goxhill, England from the US.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, XII
Bomber Command B-17's, B-26's, B-25's and P-38's bomb the Rome-Casale landing
ground, Marcigliana and Cerveteri Airfields, railroad bridges at Montalto di
Castro, Grosseto, and 13 miles (21 km) SE of Orvieto, and the marshalling
yard at Nish, Yugoslavia obstructing the Belgrade-Sofia line; the XII Air
Support Command, Northwest African Tactical Bomber Force (NATBF), and other
aircraft of the Northwest African Tactical Air Force (NATAF) devote most of
their efforts to bombing gun positions, trucks, and rail and road
communications S of Vasto, at Mignano, N of Cassino, in Cassino and Chieti, at
Castropignano, Carpinone, Arce, Tratella, and at various other points along
highways and railroads. Fighter-bombers also hit shipping along Dalmatian coast
of Yugoslavia, claiming 2 vessels sunk.
  HQ 62d Fighter Wing transfers from Palermo, Sicily to Naples, Italy.
  The 527th Fighter-Bomber Squadron, 86th Fighter-Bomber Group, transfers
from Serretella Airfield to Pomigliano, Italy with A-36's.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, Kakasa on Choiseul Island is attacked 3 times by Venturas, P-40's,
and US Navy (USN) fighters and dive bombers. 24 P-40's and nearly 50 USN F4U's
sweep Kahili on Bougainville Island; one force of F4U's encounters fighters,
claiming 3 destroyed.
  The 69th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 42d Bombardment Group (Medium),
ceases operating form Guadalcanal Island with B-25's and returns to it's
base on New Caledonia Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea,
B-25's bomb and strafe the Bogadjim area; B-24's hit 2 freighters near
Manokwari and bomb the Manokwari area; and an attack on Finschhafen by 30
Japanese aircraft causes minor damage. A-20's hit Gasmata Island off New
Britain Island.

THURSDAY, 21 OCTOBER 1943

CENTRAL PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Seventh Air Force): The 72d Fighter
Squadron, 318th Fighter Group, transfers from Hilo Field to Wheeler Field,
Territory of Hawaii with P-39's.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): The 530th Fighter-Bomber Squadron, 311th
Fighter-Bomber Group, based at Dinjan, India with A-36's sends a detachment
to operate from Kurmitola, India.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 6 B-24's bomb Nawlang, Burma; the barracks
area is blasted by at least 3 direct hits. 6 P-40's pound the barracks area
at Kunlong, China.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Bad weather causes 72 B-26's sent
to bomb Evreux/Fauville Airfield in France to abort the mission.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): Colonel Arthur
Thomas takes command of the XII Air Force Service Command. In Italy, XII
Bomber Command B-17's hit a railroad viaduct at Terni and rail and road
bridges in Albania. B-24's hit Orvieto railroad bridge; B-26's and B-25's
bomb bridges at Montalto di Castro and NW of Acquapendente and the railroad
at Orbetello; P-38's bomb a radar station at Pellegrino and the marshalling
yard at Skoplje, Yugoslavia; Royal Air Force (RAF) and US NATAF light and
medium bombers concentrate on Cassino, hitting the town, a bivouac area
nearby, and railroad to the S; vessels along Dalmatian coast of Yugoslavia
are also attacked; XII Air Support Command fighters and fighter-bombers
patrol the Naples area and attack numerous roads, railroads, bridges,
junctions, trucks, gun emplacements, and other targets in the battle area.
  The 93d Fighter Squadron, 81st Fighter Group, transfers from Sidi Ahmed,
Tunisia to Castelvetrano, Sicily with P-39's.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, 12 B-25's, with an escort of 36 fighters, attack Kara Airfield on
Bougainville Island. The runway and several buildings suffer direct hits.
  The 23d Bombardment Squadron, Heavy, 5th Bombardment Group (Heavy), based
on Espiritu Santo Island, New Hebrides Islands with B-24's begins operating
from Guadalcanal Island.
  The 75th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 42d Bombardment Group (Medium),
transfers from Guadalcanal Island to the Russell Islands with B-25's.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea,
50+ B-24's bomb positions at Sattelberg; 19 B-25's follow with a low-level
strike: other B-25's carry out a sweep along the Bogadjim road. In the
Bismarck Archipelago, P-40's bomb Gasmata Island off New Britain Island and
attack 2 light cruisers off New Ireland Island, damaging 1 of them.

FRIDAY, 22 OCTOBER 1943

CENTRAL PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Seventh Air Force): The 819th
Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 30th Bombardment Group (Heavy), arrives at
Barking Sands, Territory of Hawaii with B-24's. The squadron, the ex-3d
Antisubmarine Squadron (Heavy), will fly sea searches and supply the 30th
Group with replacement crews and planes until May 44.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, a B-25 strike against a railroad
bridge on the Ye-u branch line over the Mu River between Ywataung and Monywa
fails to damage the structure. This raid marks the final assault of the year
on this bridge.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): About 60 B-26's bomb Evreux/Fauville
Airfield in France; 140+ others abort missions against other airfields because
of bad weather.


MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): The Combined
Chiefs of Staff (CCS) approve the plan, submitted by General Henry H "Hap"
Arnold and the US Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS), to create a new Air Force
(the Fifteenth) in Italy from part of the Twelfth Air Force to be used in
strategic bombing against Germany as well as in support of ground operations.
  In Italy, XII Bomber Command B-26's bomb railroad bridges N and SE of
Omvieto; B-25's hit a railroad bridge S of Grosseto and Eleusis Airfield,
Greece; The XII Air Support Command, along with other elements of the NATAF,
hit town areas, highways, vehicles, gun positions, railroad communications,
strongpoints, and targets of opportunity at or near San Salvo Teano, Venafro,
Cantalupo el Sannio, Isernia, Cassino, Montenero, and Boiano. Aquino
Airfield is also bombed.
  The 12th Troop Carrier Squadron, 60th Troop Carrier Group, based at Gela,
Sicily, begins operating from Comiso, Sicily with C-47's.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, Kahili Airfield on Bougainville Island and the surrounding areas
are pounded by 22 B-24's, 30+ P-39's and P-40's and about 160 USN fighters
and dive bombers. 18 B-24's and USN airplanes hit targets in the Choiseul
Island area. Other USN aircraft hit Kara Airfield on Bougainville Island. A
single B-24 claims hits on a carrier NW of Buka Island.
  HQ 42d Bombardment Group (Medium) and it's 390th Bombardment Squadron
(Medium) transfer from Guadalcanal Island to the Russell Islands with B-25's.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea,
20+ B-25's carry out a low-level attack on the Wewak area, sinking 2 small
freighters, and strafing barges and airplanes; Madang is strafed by 4 P-39's
and 2 Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) Boomerangs. 50+ P-40's hit Gasmata
Island off New Britain Island. 11 B-24's bomb Pombelaa nickel mines on
Celebes Island.

SATURDAY, 23 OCTOBER 1943

CENTRAL PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Seventh Air Force): AAF fighters
shoot down a Japanese flying boat 70 miles (112 km) S of Baker Island in
the Pacific Ocean.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): B-25's bomb the Meza, Burma railroad bridge,
which is still being repaired following the damaging raid of 10 Oct; damage
is done to the approaches.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, XII
Bomber Command B-26's bomb railroad and road bridges at Marsicano and
Montalto di Castro; P-38's hit the airfield at Tirana; B-25's hit a bridge
in Albania; the XII Air Support Command, RAF Desert Air Force (DAF), and
NATBF attack troop concentrations in the Spinete area, and town areas,
vehicles, trains, railroads, highways, bridges, and gun positions at or near
Gaeta, Pescara, Vasto, Isolella, Sulmona, Isernia, Vairano, and Ancona.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, 11 B-24's and 16 P-38's hit Kahili Airfield on Bougainville Island
and 36 P-40's and P-39's join 60+ US Navy dive bombers and fighters in a
strike on Kara Airfield on Bougainville; both Kahili and Kara are attacked
again later in the day, the former by 6 B-24's and 16 USN fighters and the
latter by 35 AAF fighters and 42 USN dive bombers. 6 B-24's bomb Kakasa on
Choiseul Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): 40+ B-24's
escorted by P-38's, bomb Rapopo airstrip on New Britain Island, destroying
about 20 airplanes on the ground; 20 enemy interceptors are claimed shot
down. 9 B-25's hit the Bogadjim area in New Guinea.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 Oct 1993 13:02:15 -0400
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 24-31 OCT 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-4, Lockheed Lightning
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  F4U, Vought Corsair (USN)
  L-1, Stinson Vigilant
  L-4, Piper Cub/Grasshopper
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  O-47, North American
  O-52, Curtiss Owl
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  Zeke, Mitsubishi A6M, Navy Type 0 Carrier Fighter

SUNDAY, 24 OCTOBER 1943

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 14 B-24's and 13 P-40's pound a barracks
area at Co Bi, French Indochina. 8 B-24's bomb Htawgaw, Burma while on a
ferry flight over the Hump.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 200 B-26's bomb airfields at
Montdidier, Beauvais/Nivillers, and Saint-Andre-de-L'Eure, France.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): XII Bomber Command
B-24's of the 98th Bombardment Group (Heavy) hit Wiener-Neustadt, Austria;
the 376th Bombardment Group (Heavy) fails to complete the mission because
of clouds. In Italy, medium bombers hit Tirana Airfield, a railroad bridge
N of Orvieto, and a viaduct at Terni; the XII Air Support Command,
Northwest African Tactical Bomber Force (NATBF), and Royal Air Force (RAF)
Desert Air Force (DAF) attack communications and shipping targets, hitting
vessels, vehicles, trains, roads, bridges, and the town areas in and around
Formia, Sora, Chieti, Minturno, Sessa Aurunca, Popoli, Terracina, between
Ancona-Pedaso, Frosolone (just before it is taken by allied ground forces),
and along the Dalmatian coast of Yugoslavia.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, 36 B-25's, along with 24 Royal New Zealand Air Force (RNZAF)
P-40's and 4 US Navy (USN) F4U's, in 1 force, and 20 AAF fighter and 70+ USN
fighters and dive bombers in another force, pound Kahili Airfield on
Bougainville Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): On New Britain
Island in the Bismarck Archipelago, at least 45 bombers are destroyed on
the ground at Vunakanau, Rapopo, and Tobera airstrips during attacks by 50+
B-25's; the B-25's and 50+ escorting P-38's claim 40+ Japanese airplanes
shot down. On New Guinea, A-20's hit enemy positions in the Lae area and
B-24's carry out a light attack on Manokwari.

MONDAY, 25 OCTOBER 1943

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In French Indochina, 6 P-40's strafe shipping
at Haiphong, claiming 3 small boats sunk and damaging 6 larger boats; 2
B-25's and 4 P-40's attack shipping in the Gulf of Tonkin, claiming a 150-ft
(45.7 m) tanker sunk and 200-ft (61 m) freighter damaged.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, XII
Bomber Command P-39's strafe and bomb the landing ground at Podgorica; XII
Air Support Command, NATBF and RAF DAF concentrate on blocking roads and
destroying bridges; town areas, vehicles, radio stations, trains, and vessels
are also attacked; targets attacked are in or near Frosinone, Formia, Gaeta,
Cetraro, along the Sangro River, Kuna, along the Dalmatian coast of
Yugoslavia, W of Lagosta Island and S of Rome; Tarquinia Airfield is also
bombed.
  HQ 324th Fighter Group and it's 314th Fighter Squadron transfer from
Menzel Heurr, Tunisia to Cercola, Italy with P-40's. The squadron, which
has been out of combat since 21 Jul, will fly it's first mission on 30 Oct.
  The 36th Troop Carrier Squadron, 316th Troop Carrier Group, transfers
from Mazara to Castelvetrano, Sicily with C-47's.
  The 64th Fighter Squadron, 57th Fighter Group, transfers from Foggia to
Amendola, Italy with P-40's.
  The 486th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 340th Bombardment Group (Medium),
transfers from Catania, Sicily to San Pancrazio, Italy with B-25's.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): The 372d
Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 307th Bombardment Group (Heavy), based on
Espirtu Santo Island in the New Hebrides Islands, begins operating from
Guadalcanal Island with B-24's.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): 60+ B-24's bomb
the Rabaul area on New Britain Island, destroying 20+ airplanes on the
ground. Of the 60-70 fighters which intercept, the B-24's claim 30+ shot
down. In New Guinea, A-20's hit positions near Lae and B-24's carry out a
light strike against Manokwari.

MONDAY, 26 OCTOBER 1943

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): The 71st Liaison Squadron, US Army Forces,
CBI, transfers from Ramgarh to Ledo, India with L-4's and L-5's.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 13 B-24's and 15 P-40's pound railroad
yards at Haiphong, French Indochina. In China, 2 B-25's attack several
vessels at Kiungshan, claiming 4 sunk or badly damaged; later 6 more B-25's
hit shipping nearby, claiming 1 freighter sunk; the airfield at Kiungshan
is strafed by 1 of the B-25's.
  The 21st Photographic Squadron (Light), Fourteenth Air Force, based at
Kunming, China with F-4's and F-5's, sends a fight to operate from
Suichwan, China.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Greece, B-25's
and P-38's of the XII Bomber Command attack the airfields of Salonika/Sedhes
and Megalo Mikra. In Italy, XII Air Support Command and RAF DAF fighters and
fighter-bombers attack gun emplacements and road junctions in the battle
area along the E coast and in the center of Italy, also destroying many
vehicles and parked aircraft in the Ancona area, where railroad facilities
are also hit; a schooner at Porto Civitanova is left smoking; medium bombers
of the NATBF bomb Terracina and an ammunition dump.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, Kahili Airfield on Bougainville Island is hit twice during the day
by B-24's, B-25's, P-38's, P-40's, P-39's, and USN fighters and dive bombers.
The airfield on Buka Island is strafed by P-38's and then bombed and strafed
by B-25's and P-38's. P-39's and P-40's join USN fighters and dive bombers in
a strike on Kara Airfield on Bougainville.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): B-24's fly a
small raid against Pombelaa on Celebes Island; fighters shoot down 2 B-24's;
US gunners claim 11 aircraft downed. B-25's hit targets in Tanimbar Island
in the Moluccas Islands.

WEDNESDAY, 27 OCTOBER 1943

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CARIBBEAN (Sixth Air Force): The 4th Reconnaissance Squadron (Special),
Antilles Air Command, transfers from Losey Field to Borinquen Field, Puerto
Rico with L-1's, O-47's, O-52's and P-39's.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 6 B-24's bomb the city of Tungling, China
and claim 8 intercepting Zekes shot down.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Austria, 150+
B-17's and B-24's bomb Wiener-Neustadt and railroad tracks and installations
and bridges at Friedberg and Ebenfurth. Weather severely curtails NATBF
missions and XII Air Support Command operations in support of ground forces.
Fighter-bombers attack Gaeta, Italy and bomb small vessels on the Dalmatian
coast at Opuzen, Yugoslavia.
  HQ 57th Fighter Group and it's 65th and 66th Fighter Squadrons transfer
from Foggia to Amendola, Italy with P-40's.
  The 315th and 316th Fighter Squadrons, 324th Fighter Group, transfer from
Menzel Heurr, Tunisia to Cercola, Italy with P-40's.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, B-24's pound Kahili and Kara airfields on Bougainville Island;
P-40's over Kahili claim 3 Zekes shot down. P-38's, P-40's, and P-39's, plus
some Royal New Zealand Air Force (RNZAF) P-40's and P-39's, cover the
landing by New Zealand troops on Stirling and Mono Islands. The fighters
claim destruction of 12 Japanese dive bombers attacking the landing force
and afterwards claim 3 fighters shot down.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea,
P-40's and P-39's intercept an escorted Japanese bomber force dropping
supplies over the Sattelberg area; the US fighters claim 12 airplanes downed.
A-20's hit harbor and supply dump area at Gasmata Island off New Britain
Island.

THURSDAY, 28 OCTOBER 1943

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ZONE OF INTERIOR: The AAF School of Applied Tactics at Orlando AAB,
Florida is redesignated the AAF Tactical Center.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 7 B-24's bomb Mangshih; 6 P-40's
strafe a warehouse and revetments at Yoyang Airfield; 3 B-25's and 7 P-38's
hit a barracks at Ft Bayard; and 2 B-25's on a shipping sweep over the S
China Sea damage 2 freighters near Saint John Island and sink a junk W of
Kwangchow Wan.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): Weather prevents
most Twelfth Air Force operations planned for the day. No missions are
flown by the XII Bomber Command. In Italy, XII Air Support Command A-36's
hit several highways and bridges in advance of the battleline and attack
gun positions in the Vairano area and transportation targets in the Rome
area.
  The 28th Troop Carrier Squadron, 60th Troop Carrier Group, transfers from
Gela to Gerbini, Sicily with C-47's.
  The 346th Fighter Squadron, 350th Fighter Group, transfers from Rerhaia,
Algeria to Sardinia with P-39's.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, P-40's and P-39's join USN fighters and dive bombers in attacks on
Kara Airfield on Bougainville Island and the airfield on Ballale Island.
Almost 200 aircraft are involved in the 2 strikes. Kara airfield is also
pounded by 19 B-24's.
  The 67th Fighter Squadron, 347th Fighter Group, based on Woodlark Island
with P-39's, begins operating form New Georgia Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): P-40's hit
Gasmata Island off New Britain Island. P-47's attack barges at Talasea on
New Britain Island and strafe surrounding area. In New Guinea, P-47's also
strafe the area from Sio to Fortification Point.

FRIDAY, 29 OCTOBER 1943

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 14 B-24's and 16 P-40's pound the smelter
area at Quang Yen, French Indochina. In China, 2 B-25's bomb the
administration building and runway at Ft Bayard airfield; 9 P-40's on
offensive reconnaissance in the Chiuchiang area strafe a 200-ft (320 m)
steamer and attack a train, destroying the locomotive.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, 100+ XII
Bomber Command B-17's, escorted by P-38's, bomb the Genoa marshalling yard
and also hit the Sampierdarena marshalling yard, San Giorgio instrument
factory, and ordnance, electric, and fitting plants and bridges at Genoa-
Ansaldo; the XII Air Support Command, NATBF, and RAF DAF are forced by bad
weather to abandon several missions in support of ground forces. Troops and
gun positions are attacked on 2 occasions and several bridges are hit;
Giulianova harbor and shipping are successfully attacked.
  HQ 57th Bombardment Wing transfers from Naples to Foggia, Italy.
  HQ 60th Troop Carrier Group and it's 11th Troop Carrier Squadron transfer
from Gela to Gerbini, Sicily with C-47's.
  The 487th and 488th Bombardment Squadrons (Medium), 340th Bombardment
Group (Medium), transfer from Catania, Sicily to San Pancrazio, Italy with
B-25's.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, B-25's and B-24's, along with 40+ USN aircraft, bomb the airfield
on Buka Island and Bonis Airfield on Bougainville Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): 37 B-24's,
escorted by 53 P-38's, pound Rabaul area on New Britain Island, claiming 45
airplanes destroyed on the ground and in the air. 17 B-25's hit the Madang,
New Guinea area. P-47's attack shipping in Hansa Bay, New Guinea area and
strafe the Cape Gloucester area on New Britain Island. B-25's sink a vessel
off Tanimbar Island in the Moluccas Islands while B-24's bomb Selaroe
airstrip on Tanimbar and attack the Waroe Bay area of New Guinea.
  The 8th Fighter Squadron, 49th Fighter Group, transfers from Tsili Tsili
to Gusap, New Guinea with P-47's.
  The 63d Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 43d Bombardment Group (Heavy)
transfers from Port Moresby to Dobodura, New Guinea with B-24's.

SATURDAY, 30 OCTOBER 1943

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ANTISUBMARINE WARFARE (First Air Force): The ground echelons of the 6th
and 22d Antisubmarine Squadrons (Heavy), 479th Antisubmarine Group, are
disbanded at Salk Lake City AAB, Utah. The air echelons are at Dunkeswell,
England with B-24's.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 7 B-25's and 12 P-40's pound the
motor pool and barracks at Shayang; 9 P-38's hit the Chiuchiang dock area;
2 interceptors are shot down.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 5 B-26's bomb Cherbourg/Maupertus
Airfield in France.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, XII
Bomber Command B-24's bomb the Genoa marshalling yard and nearby
Sampierdarena and Genoa-Ansaldo steel works; B-17's bomb Savona and Varazze,
Porto Maurizio, and the Imperia marshalling yard; weather reduces the efforts
of NATAF elements; NATBF B-25's bomb Frosinone; fighter-bombers, mainly of
the XII Air Support Command, hit bridges, junctions, shipping, marshalling
yard, gun positions, and vehicles at several locations, including Giulianova,
Ancona, Ortona, Sessa Aurunca, Mignano, and Cassino.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): On Bougainville
Island in the Solomon Islands, Kara Airfield is bombed by 16 B-24's and
shortly afterwards is hit by 90+ USN dive bombers escorted by USN and AAF
fighters; the airstrip and other targets at Kieta are attacked by 6 B-25's,
12 P-39's and USN aircraft; and the Tonolai harbor area is hit by 8 P-40's
and 17 USN planes.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): B-25's strafe
barges in Rein Bay on New Britain Island.

SUNDAY, 31 OCTOBER 1943

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, in an attempt to knock out the
Japanese base from which fighters are attacking ferrying operations, P-40's
carrying 1000-pound (454 kg) bombs fly 4 strikes against Myitkyina; following
the bomb runs, the fighters strafe AA positions; the attacks cause
considerable damage to the base; B-25's attack the Meza railroad bridge,
scoring hits on the approaches but missing the structure; the bridge remains
unusable due to damage caused by the 10 Oct strike.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): XII Bomber Command
B-17's bomb Antheor viaduct in France. In Italy, B-26's hit Anzio; B-25's
attack docks and shipping at Civitavecchia; P-38's strafe and bomb Tirana
airfield; weather cancels all NATAF attacks except for 11 P-40's which bomb
and strafe a tanker off Split, Yugoslavia, leaving it burning. XII Air
Support Command fighters fly an uneventful naval escort.
  HQ 1st Fighter Group and it's 71st Fighter Squadron transfer from Mateur
to Djedeida, Tunisia with P-38's.
  The 379th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 310th Bombardment Group (Medium),
ceases operating from Oudna and returns to it's base at Menzel Temime,
Tunisia with B-25's.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): 20+ B-25's,
with fighter support, bomb Kara Airfield on Bougainville Island in the
Solomon Islands.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): P-40's sink a
barge off the New Britain Island coast.
  The 65th Troop Carrier Squadron, 54th Troop Carrier Wing, ceases operating
from Tsili Tsili and returns to it's base at Nadzab, New Guinea with C-47's.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 Oct 1993 11:44:23 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: GEN - Cannibalism

>
> Regarding cannibalism by Japanese soldiers in WWII, see also two older
> books:
>         Raymond Paull, Retreat from Kokoda (Melbourne, 1958, reprinted
> 1982) and Arthur Swinson, Four Samurai (London, 1968).
> Paull used captured Japanese diaries extensively and remains one of the
> best books on Kokoda. Swinson talks about ritual cannibalism in Burma
> 1944-45 and mentions the infamous Col. Masanobu Tsuji.

Can you talk specifics regarding Tsuji?  He's one of my favorite villains,
thank to Toland.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 Oct 1993 14:36:11 -0500
From:    John Lundstrom <jl@CSD4.CSD.UWM.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN - Cannibalism

Christopher,
        Not having Swinson's book immediately at hand, I have to go by
memory. As I recollect, in late 1944 or early 1945 while attached to Lt.
Gen. Honda's 33rd Army in Burma, Tsuji and some other staff officers
supposedly killed an Allied pilot POW and ate his liver (sounds like Dr.
Hannibal Lecter). Sought for war crimes, Tsuji hid out in SE Asia until
the early 1950s, when he returned to Japan and got elected in the Diet,
thereby gaining immunity. He supposedly disappeared in the mid 1960s
and the rumor was he went to North Vietnam.
        I would be curious to learn if anything new has come out on
Tsuji since the late 1960s.

John Lundstrom
jl@csd4.csd.uwm.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 Oct 1993 16:13:32 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN - Cannibalism

Chris and others,

One other thing I might mention. There is recorded evidence of
canibalsim during the siege of Leningrad. In Harrison Salisbury's
book "900 Days: The Siege of Leningrad", there is a shocking instance
of civilians having used the remains of deceased persons for
sustenance. They were discovered by elements of the Red Army and
summarily shot.

Terry Moore

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 Oct 1993 16:20:40 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: REF: chronology

Con,

There is such a book out by that same title, but the author's name
escapes me. It concerns "Panzer" Meyer and a Canadian general who
met, I think, after the conflict but fought against each other in
Normandy.

I would appreciate a additional info on Blumenson's new book.

Thank you.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 Oct 1993 16:34:52 -0500
From:    JEFF HINDS INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY <JHINDS@ACAD1.MTSU.EDU>
Subject: Search of coding methods

Dear discussion group,

I am involved in a research project to identify if the alphabet developed by
Sequoyah of the Cherokee Indian nation was used as an encryption method during
World War II. I am seeking any form of information about this topic, books,
journals, reports, interviews, etc.

Thank you in advance




Jeff Hinds
Middle Tennessee State University

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 Oct 1993 16:38:51 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: ARCH: Center for Military History Catalog

Marshall University's FTP site, byrd.mu.wvnet.edu, has received a copy of
the listing of GPO publications produced by the Center for Military History.
One plain text file (.txt) and a compressed version (.zip) are to be found in:

/pub/history/military

with the filenames:

cntr_mil_hist.txt (text file)
cntr_mil_hist.zip (binary file)

The text file is 260k+.

Larry J

JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 Oct 1993 16:21:09 EDT
From:    "William B. Thacker" <wbt@CBEMF.ATT.COM>
Subject: Re: Weap: Grenades vs AFV's

> We had a fair number of armored vehicles at the WWIIHRS National Battle
> at Camp Atterbury the weekend before this past one.  It seemed to me
> that every yahoo with a hand grenade thought he could wipe out a tank
> with it.
>
> What kind of effects can a normal hand held, or launched grenade (from a
> rifle) have on an AFV.

Rifle grenades were used by German and the US.  They had hollow charge
warheads sufficient to penetrate the deck armor of most any tank.  But I've
never yet read an account of a tank being knocked out by one, so I suspect
the difficulty of getting a hit rendered them all but useless.

A single hand grenade would carry insufficient explosives to do much
damage.  Certainly, the explosion would have to be confined somehow to give
it direction. If, for instance, the grenade was trapped beneath a drive
sprocket (or a bogie wheel) and the track, it might have enough power to
break the track.  Land mines were sometimes used like this.

A bundle of grenades,  placed in the suspension, would probably blow off a
track.  As another poster mentioned, the Germans commonly used bundled
grenades against the engine deck, or by placing them under the turret
overhang so that the massive turret would direct the explosion downward.


One technique widely taught in Britain in 1940 was to thrust a large log
into the tank's suspension (sort of like putting a stick in the spokes of a
bicycle wheel).  This wouldn't work on a Tiger, but could be very effective
against most vehicles.

One advantage your group has is that they can experience first-hand how
restricted the visibility is from within a buttoned-up tank.  Shorn of its
escorting infantry, a lone tank is actually quite vulnerable to infantry if
they have any cover to speak of.  In that context, many of these
desperation tactics become feasible.  If the tanks stay tight with their
infantry, though, these are virtual suicide.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
(614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              wbt@cbemf.att.com
                      Humpty Dumpty was pushed!

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 Oct 1993 19:20:18 EDT
From:    Michael Cotter <LBCOTTER@ECUVM1.BITNET>
Subject: Re: The "Philadelphia Experiment"

Well, I've had about five or six answers to my question about the
above subject, and all of them say that it was a hoax.  So, thank you all
for the reply; and if anyone else wishes to reply, please send it to
me personally, as I'm going away for a few days and am setting NOMAIL.

Michael Cotter
Documents Librarian
Joyner Library
East Carolina University
Greenville NC 27858
919/757-6533

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 Oct 1993 17:10:17 -0800
From:    Julian E Gomez <jeg@APPLE.COM>
Subject: Re: GEN - Cannibalism

>Hannibal Lecter). Sought for war crimes, Tsuji hid out in SE Asia until
>the early 1950s, when he returned to Japan and got elected in the Diet,
>thereby gaining immunity. He supposedly disappeared in the mid 1960s

Who thought this one up? Why should a war criminal get immunity by becoming
a !@#$%^& politician? Hell, they're usually the first ones who should go.



"I was a precocious child and obviously destined to be a scientist."

        Dr. Julian "a tribble took it" Gomez
        Apple Computer, Inc.  408/862-1289 or 996-1010
        jeg@apple.com  julian.g@applelink.apple.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 Oct 1993 20:05:35 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <kc5318@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN - Cannibalism

>Chris and others,
>
>One other thing I might mention. There is recorded evidence of
>canibalsim during the siege of Leningrad. In Harrison Salisbury's
>book "900 Days: The Siege of Leningrad", there is a shocking instance
>of civilians having used the remains of deceased persons for
>sustenance. They were discovered by elements of the Red Army and
>summarily shot.
>
>Terry Moore
>
>Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
>P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
>fax 806-371-5370
>

William Craig in ENEMY AT THE GATES has some horrendous stories about cannibal
gangs in Italian prison camps in Russia after Stalingrad.  They are the worst
I've seen.
                                        Con Crane

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Oct 1993 10:16:45 AEST
From:    ccwilber@UQVAX.CC.UQ.OZ.AU
Subject: Type numbers for USN fighters

Can somebody shed some light on the numbering scheme for Navy fighters. I
know of aircraft such as the F4U, F4F, F6F, but what do they mean?

Wilber.

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Wilber WILLIAMS                            w.williams@cc.uq.edu.au      |
|Prentice Centre                            Telephone : +61 7 365 4232   |
|The University of Queensland               Facsimile : +61 7 365 4477   |
|Brisbane Qld 4072  AUSTRALIA                                            |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 17 Oct 1993 to 18 Oct 1993
*************************************************

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There are 7 messages totalling 268 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Type numbers for USN fighters
  2. GEN - Cannibalism
  3. REF: comfort women
  4. byrd (2)
  5. REF: chronology
  6. Weap: Grenades vs AFV's

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Oct 1993 00:15:54 -0400
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Type numbers for USN fighters

Until reorganizing the numbering system in 1962, the USN alloted
a type designation that encoded the primary function of the
aircraft, the manufacturer, the number of aircraft designs of that
function accepted from that manufacturer, and a version number.

The first letter, or two letters, indicated the primary function(s)
intended for the aircraft.  Examples:
   B = bomber
   F = fighter
   O = observation
   P = patrol
   R = transport
   S = scout

There was also a code letter assigned for each manufacturer.  Examples:
   C = Curtiss           M = General Motors
   D = Douglas           U = Chance Vought
   F = Grumman           V = Lockheed
   H = McDonnell         Y = Consolidated
   J = North American

These two designators were separated by a number to indicate how many
aircraft designs from this manufacturer have been accepted for the
purpose, with the number "1" normally not used.

Another number, separated from the rest of the designation by a hyphen,
indicated major improvements to the original design.  An additional
letter could be used to indicate minor improvements that didn't
warrant a version change.

Examples:

SBD-3 = Scout Bomber, 1st SB design from Douglas, 3rd version

F4F-4 = Fighter, 4th fighter type from Grumman, 4th version

F6F = Fighter, 6th fighter type from Grumman, version not specified

F4U-1D = Fighter, 4th fighter type from Chance Vought, 1st major
         version, fourth minor improvement

PBY-5 = Patrol, 1st patrol aircraft from Consolidated, 5th version

PV-1 = Patrol, 1st patrol design from Lockheed, 1st version


In 1962, the system was overhauled.  Aircraft in service at the time
received a new designation that was as similar to their original
designation as possible.  The F4H became simply the F-4 (Phantom II),
the A4D became the A-4 (Skyhawk), etc.  An additional letter was added
to indicate versions.  The system was designed also to produce a
common designation system for aircraft from the different branches
of the US military, so some designators had to be changed completely.
The designation R4D was dropped in favor of the USAF designation of
C-47, for instance.


Dennis E. Sparks
SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 Oct 1993 19:13:26 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: GEN - Cannibalism

>
> Christopher,
>         Not having Swinson's book immediately at hand, I have to go by
> memory. As I recollect, in late 1944 or early 1945 while attached to Lt.
> Gen. Honda's 33rd Army in Burma, Tsuji and some other staff officers
> supposedly killed an Allied pilot POW and ate his liver (sounds like Dr.
> Hannibal Lecter). Sought for war crimes, Tsuji hid out in SE Asia until
> the early 1950s, when he returned to Japan and got elected in the Diet,
> thereby gaining immunity. He supposedly disappeared in the mid 1960s
> and the rumor was he went to North Vietnam.
>         I would be curious to learn if anything new has come out on
> Tsuji since the late 1960s.

I read either in Toland or Ienaga that Tsuji had gone on a junket to China
where he disappeared.  I suspect that he had a few enemies left over from the
war.  I have them narrowed down to a few hundred thousand suspects, many of
them Japanese....

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Oct 1993 07:37:00 -0400
From:    Kevin Kamphaus <USR5066A@CBOS.UC.EDU>
Subject: REF: comfort women

I believe the show on confort women may have been on "Dateline NBC" which runs
Tuesdays at 10pm. I also saw this show and I don't think it was on Prime Time
or 20/20.

Kevin Kamphaus
usr5066A@cbos.uc.edu


------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Oct 1993 16:57:00 CET
From:    Peter de Lange <MIMHCB@RULMVS.LEIDENUNIV.NL>
Subject: byrd

Byrd.
For 5 months I am using byrd via ftp and I am still very enthousiast.
Go to subdirectorie   "pub/historie" then you have the choise,
"maritime" and you find a list of all US battleship with there history
or to "military/airforce" and you wil find list of all US-fighters,
bombers,etc UK aircraft , USSR aircraft , German aircraft, or you
go to subdirectorie p_series_fighters.txt and you find of all USAAF
fighters from P-1 to P-86 a full description, fantastic.
Only the subdirectorie f_series_fighters.txt is denied for me???
You also can find in byrd the US navy chronology and the USAAF chron.
I want to thank Joe Baugher, Emmanuel Gustin, Larry Jewell and
Jack McKillop and all the others for there excellent job.
Peter de Lange
MIMHCB@RULMVS.LeidenUniv.NL

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Oct 1993 13:20:51 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: REF: chronology

Con,

The book I had in mind when I wrote you earlier yesterday is a book
by a Canadian by the title "Meeting of the Generals". There is a book
out by David Irving entitled "War Between the Generals" which deals
with conflicts among the American/Allied High Command. You may be
aware of this one. I don't know if it is still in print, but I don't
recommend it. It is too full of conjecture and there are mistakes.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Oct 1993 14:00:05 -0500
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: Weap: Grenades vs AFV's

In Denis' message of 18 Oct 1993 at 0058 CDT, he sez:

lots of good mine data deleted....
> and the Russian TM-41 having 9 pounds (BTW if anyone has any comments about
> the Russian dog antitank mine let me know - did they have any success with
> this method?)

I read somewhere that the Russians had trained dogs to run after
tanks and when underneath them a charge would detonate (magnetically?)
and disable the tank.  The problem they ran into was that the dogs
were trained on T-34s and would run under T-34s more often than Pzkfw
IVs!!!  Most unpleasant!  I think they dropped the practice very
quickly.  The Soviets were not real dog lovers I guess and the dogs
must have sensed it (a dog Vlassov Legion perhaps??)  8-D

The US was not much better though, Psychologist B. F. Skinner worked
on guidance systems for "smart bombs".  He put a pigeon in a
windowed box and trained them to peck at ship shaped designs.  There
were sensors in the window that would alter the course of the bomb.
As the bird pecked it would change the angle of the fins and the bomb
would head where the bird pecked.  It should have worked well but
the project was dropped before going into use (the ASPCA must have
caught wind of it).

> In addition their were a number of hand thrown AT grenades. The inherent
> risk of getting close enough to actually use one suggests that not to many
> of these actually found their mark, but if anyone has info to the contrary
> please let me know.

The book _For Fuhrer and Fatherland_ Vol 1 (military awards) by J. R.
Angolia has a discussion of the award instituted in 1943 (I think) to
reward troops for the single handed destruction of an armored vehicle
without use of an AT weapon like the Panzerschreck or Panzerfaust or
PAK.  It was awarded to troops who took out an armored vehicle with
grenades, satchel charge, shaped charge or mines (manually applied).

As often happened in the East, German soldiers would get over run by
Soviet tanks which had outrun their infantry support or had it
suppressed by German fire which put enemy tanks in close proximity to
German troops.  Angolia writes about a Lt in the Grossdeutschland
division who's troops were in fox holes when over run by T-34s.  As a
tank overtook a soldier in a foxhole the tank would pivot and bury
the soldier in his position.  The Lt, so enraged at this, took
satchel charges and rushed the tank from behind and set a charge
under the turret of the tank.  After it blew up he ran to the next
and the next repeating the exercise and beat the attack back.  Over a
5 or 6 day period he personally destroyed 17 soviet vehicles in this
manner and won a sleeve full of these awards and a Knights Cross of
the Iron Cross to boot.  He had three gold (5 victories) awards and
two silver on his right sleeve.  His troops copied the style and
resulted in handing the Russians such heavy losses they broke contact.

This happened in the German army with some regularity as evidenced by
the number of photographs you see of troops wearing this award.  I
have two uniforms in my collection that have this award.  Its a
sliver tape stripe about 1" by 4" with two black border stripes and a
metal tank affixed to the center.  Ones also exists with an aircraft
which was awarded for single handed destruction of an aircraft with
small arms fire.  I have never seen one on a uniform or in a
photograph but I have an original example in my collection.  They are
*extremely* hard to find.

The Germans also had a glass grenade containing fulminate of mercury
that was used in anti-tank attacks.  When smashed against a tank the
chemical reaction resulted in making things *very* unpleasant for the
occupants of the tank and encouraged their rapid departure after
which they were dispatched or captured by the waiting infantry.

Interesting questions!  Thanks for bringing up the issue Denis.

Regards, Bill Huber
whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Oct 1993 20:36:06 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: byrd

>
> Byrd.
> For 5 months I am using byrd via ftp and I am still very enthousiast.
> Go to subdirectorie   "pub/historie" then you have the choise,
> "maritime" and you find a list of all US battleship with there history
> or to "military/airforce" and you wil find list of all US-fighters,
> bombers,etc UK aircraft , USSR aircraft , German aircraft, or you
> go to subdirectorie p_series_fighters.txt and you find of all USAAF
> fighters from P-1 to P-86 a full description, fantastic.
> Only the subdirectorie f_series_fighters.txt is denied for me???

  Fixed it.

  Send me a note if you find something screwy at byrd and I'll patch it
up.

  Glad you are finding it interesting. We've been getting material faster
than we can catalog it, but new stuff comes in every day, so check in often
and poke around, you never know what you'll find.

> You also can find in byrd the US navy chronology and the USAAF chron.
> I want to thank Joe Baugher, Emmanuel Gustin, Larry Jewell and
> Jack McKillop and all the others for there excellent job.
> Peter de Lange
> MIMHCB@RULMVS.LeidenUniv.NL
>

servabo fidem

Larry J

JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 18 Oct 1993 to 19 Oct 1993
*************************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 19 Oct 1993 to 20 Oct 1993
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There are 17 messages totalling 416 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Bataan Death March (8)
  2. re : byrd
  3. Weap: Grenades vs AFV's (2)
  4. re : recreation groups
  5. REF: Encyclopedia of German Tanks of WWII (2)
  6. A PhD in History
  7. Bataan Death March -- Deaths
  8. Al Stewart:  "Past, Present, Future" album

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Oct 1993 06:16:25 -0500
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bataan Death March

Posted to soc.history by dclee001@ulkyvx.louisville.edu> you write:

>Does anyone know where a list of the survivors of the Bataan death
>march may be found? I need to confirm that my uncle was the last
>living survivor. Thanks.

Reply to poster, post to soc.history, or send to me for forwarding.

Thanks,
Larry J

--
JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Oct 1993 13:55:00 CET
From:    Peter de Lange <MIMHCB@RULMVS.LEIDENUNIV.NL>
Subject: re : byrd

> access denied
Larry, it is ok now

multo gratia.

Peter de lange
mimhcb@rulmvs.leidenuniv.nl

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Oct 1993 09:33:17 -0400
From:    Akira Takiguchi <akira@ATSON.ASAHI-NP.CO.JP>
Subject: Re: Weap: Grenades vs AFV's

Bill Huber:
>Ones also exists with an aircraft
>which was awarded for single handed destruction of an aircraft with
>small arms fire.  I have never seen one on a uniform or in a
>photograph but I have an original example in my collection.  They are
>*extremely* hard to find.

     Tieffliegervernichtungsabzeichen!  Really?  That award was one of
the last awards established (ordered by Hitler on Jan 12th 1945, confirmed
by OKW on the next day).  According to Klietmann, it is unclear whether
the award was actually issued WITH certification (there is a report of
a soldier who shot down a Yak 2 with MP44).  Your collecton must be as
precious as a Knight's cross with diamonds!  I envy you.
     BTW, there are post-war replicas, of course.  The real thing had 90mm
width, 32mm height, with two 3mm black stripes.
--
      Akira Takiguchi  VP, ATSON, Inc.  (a subsidiary of the Asahi Shimbun)
             CANAL TOWER  9-3 Nihonbashi-Koamicho Chuo-ku Tokyo 103  Japan
   +81 3 3666 2881(voice) 2882(fax)  EMAIL TO <akira@atson.asahi-np.co.jp>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Oct 1993 08:58:49 -0500
From:    "Sidney W. Kitchel" <kitchel@OCTOPUS.DPSI.COM>
Subject: Re: Bataan Death March

        I'm interested in the Bataan Death March survivors too. My best
friend's dad was on the march. Those who survived the actual march
became some of the earliest American POWs, which meant they had a long
time in the Japanese death camps. My friend's father died OF his
camp treatment in the 1950s. He had ulcerative colitis caused by the parasites
in camp food. Apparently in the 1950s the medical folk had not learned
how to control colitis with steroids as they do today. I'd like to
hear more about the whole group of Death Marchers too.

                                                        --Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel           kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Oct 1993 15:12:00 CET
From:    Peter de Lange <MIMHCC@RULMVS.LEIDENUNIV.NL>
Subject: re : recreation groups

Keep 'm rolling
I have heard and i have seen the Dutch organisation "keep 'em rolling"
I never spoke with them but as i understand it is a organisation open
for everyone who owns a wwii vehicle. So the vehicles are privit.
I read a story about 2 man who went (15 yaers ago) to N.Afrika to
find there a special car. They bring it to Holland and try to make
and keep the car rolling.
The nice thing in the Netherlands is that every town and every village
has its own liberation date and story. With the parties of 40,45 and
now coming 50 years liberation the organisation is invited by many
towns to show the liberation again. They are able to use the origonal
routes the allies used in 44-45. You have no idee how wonderful a
big white star is and still is, after 5 years of suppression.
I think it is a wonderfull idea to go from Belgium to Nijmegen and
I hope they go on to Arnhem ,only 15 minutes, now, to show that that
is possible.
Peter de Lange
mimhcb@rulmvs.leidenuniv.nl

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Oct 1993 12:18:43 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bataan Death March

Larry,

There are certainly living survivors from the Bataan Death March. I
would think the best source on that would be Donald Knox who visited
several chapters of the "Escape Society" across this country. There
is such a chapter here in Amarillo, BTW. I have talked with several
vets here who told me of his (Knox's) to locate the whereabouts of
BDM survivors.

Donald Knox wrote a book detailing this event (the reason for the
visitations), and, to my knowledge, is the outstanding work on the
subject. His uncle is not the last, if this is what he meant.

Terry Moore

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Oct 1993 12:28:00 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Bataan Death March

I met a fellow -- a father of a friend -- up in Juneau, Alaska.  She knew
  I was a WWII buff and cautioned me to say NOTHING to him about his
  experience, since he wouldn't talk about it.

They gave me a ride home after work, one evening, so we got started talking
  about it (to my friend's horror).  He was willing to talk about it, quite
  candidly.

The next morning, with big circles under her eyes, she said he had continued
  talking about it, with her and her mother, all through the night and into
  the morning.  She was grateful I had been the catalyst to finally open up
  her father.

I was taking a big risk, though, and I knew it; but they were good people
  and worth it.

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Oct 1993 13:58:18 -0500
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: Weap: Grenades vs AFV's

In Akira's message of 20 Oct 1993 at 1137 CDT, he wrote:
>
>      Tieffliegervernichtungsabzeichen!  Really?  That award was one of
> the last awards established (ordered by Hitler on Jan 12th 1945, confirmed
> by OKW on the next day).  According to Klietmann, it is unclear whether
> the award was actually issued WITH certification (there is a report of
> a soldier who shot down a Yak 2 with MP44).  Your collecton must be as
> precious as a Knight's cross with diamonds!  I envy you.
>      BTW, there are post-war replicas, of course.  The real thing had 90mm
> width, 32mm height, with two 3mm black stripes.

The story that came along with it was that an American or British
plane was shot down by a tank commander using the hatch MG34 in the
commander's cupola of a Panther.  Of course one never knows for sure
as they are faking things so well these days.  This particular piece
has been in my collection since 1983 and I was *very* fortunate to
have found it.  It smells strongly of diesel fuel.  I have seen many
fakes of this award and in comparison none are even close.  I am
99.99% confident that this is a good one but, again, I was not there
so the possibility exists its not, however remote.  Its the risk all
collectors take.  Remember the Hermann Goring Wedding Sword swindle?
That item was quite convincingly documented including photographs of
the veteran holding the sword.  You just never know. :-/

Regards,  Bill
whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Oct 1993 14:44:53 EDT
From:    "William B. Thacker" <wbt@CBEMF.ATT.COM>
Subject: REF: Encyclopedia of German Tanks of WWII

Last night there was a package waiting at my house from the Military Book
Club.  It contained the two copies of the revised version of _The
Encyclopedia of German Tanks of WWII_ by Chamberlain, Doyle, and Jentz.

I was happy to see the revised edition offered; my original copy of the
first edition, bought in '78, is a shambles from years of hard use.  (The
second copy is an early deposit on my Christmas shopping!)

I heartily recommend the book, BTW... if you can have only one reference
on German armor, thish ought to be it.

Having skimmed it, I saw nothing (apart from the color of the cover and
dust jacket) to distinguish it from the original edition.  Not even a new
forward was provided, though the dust jacket promises that mistakes have
been corrected.

If all they've done is to correct erroneous data, I'm still quite happy.
But I'd like to know if anything new has been added; I'm not up to
re-reading it cover to cover.

Anybody out there know much about the revised edition?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
(614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              wbt@cbemf.att.com
                      Humpty Dumpty was pushed!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Oct 1993 14:49:25 -0500
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: Bataan Death March

In Sidney's message of 20 Oct 1993 at 1356 CDT, he sez:
>         I'm interested in the Bataan Death March survivors too. My best
> friend's dad was on the march. Those who survived the actual march
> became some of the earliest American POWs, which meant they had a long
> time in the Japanese death camps.
>
>                                                         --Sid
> --
> Sidney W. Kitchel           kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com


Somebody wrote yesterday about the last surviving Bataan Death March
survivor.  I know of at least one more here in San Antonio, Texas.
He had been a Coastal Artillery officer on one of the islands.  I
have his autobiography (unpublished) in my library.  If anyone is
interested I will see if he will allow me to put excerpts on the list.

Cheers, Bill Huber
whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Oct 1993 16:01:29 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bataan Death March

Sidney,

Will keep you informed. I will try and locate the address of Mr.
Donald Knox. He would have current info on the whereabouts of the
survivors, as far as I know. It may only be possible to contact him
through his publisher.

He was here in Amarillo a few years ago to research his book about
Batann.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Oct 1993 16:23:51 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bataan Death March

Sidney and others,

I have some good and some bad news. Mr. Donald Knox died on 18 Apr
1986 at the age of 50. Can you believe that? What a shock it was for
me to learn of that.

For specific information on BDM survivors, you may contact:

    American Defenders of Bataan and Corregidor
    c/o Capt. Elmer E. Long, Jr.
    P.O. Box 12052
    New Bern, NC 28561-2052

    He is the secretary of the organization. They publish a
newsletter called QUAN (all caps) 5 times per year for 8 dollars.

    This organization meets annually between 9 Apr and 6 May. The
meeting in 1994 will be in Indianapolis, Indiana, and the one in
1995 will be held in Boston, Massachusetts.

    Hope this if of help.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Oct 1993 17:30:48 -0400
From:    Steven VEST <vest@ALPHA.ACAST.NOVA.EDU>
Subject: A PhD in History

Folks:

     I've been lurking about for a long while and I wanted to call upon
the knowledge of this group for guidance.  After years of agonizing I've
nearly decide to enter a PhD program in History.  Of course, what I
really want to do is study somewhere that would allow me to write my
dissertation on WWII.  Do any of you know any programs that are
particularly well known for professors or collections involving WWII?

     I'm open to anywhere in the U.S..  I just don't want to apply to a
program that looks good on paper only to find that they have "We ain't
gonna study war no more" engraved above the door. ;-)

     Thanks much!

         Steven Vest

========================== vest@alpha.acast.nova.edu=========================
= Steven Vest: Head, Off Campus Lib. Services: Nova University, Ft. Ldl, FL  =
  Two broken tigers, on fire in the night.  Flicker their souls to the wind.
                                                Al Stewart: Roads to Moscow
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Oct 1993 22:26:35 -0400
From:    Akira Takiguchi <akira@ATSON.ASAHI-NP.CO.JP>
Subject: Re: REF: Encyclopedia of German Tanks of WWII

Bill Thacker:
>Last night there was a package waiting at my house from the Military Book
>Club.  It contained the two copies of the revised version of _The
>Encyclopedia of German Tanks of WWII_ by Chamberlain, Doyle, and Jentz.
:
>I heartily recommend the book, BTW... if you can have only one reference
>on German armor, thish ought to be it.

     100% agreed.

>Having skimmed it, I saw nothing (apart from the color of the cover and
>dust jacket) to distinguish it from the original edition.  Not even a new
>forward was provided, though the dust jacket promises that mistakes have
>been corrected.
:
>Anybody out there know much about the revised edition?

     Don't know much, but from what I heard, authors had new information
to fill up additional 50 pages, but the publisher didn't want to revise
the book that much.  Pity.

     BTW, a letter from J.J.Fedorowicz publishing says that there is a
plan to publish a new great series about German AFVs.  Keep watching!
--
      Akira Takiguchi  VP, ATSON, Inc.  (a subsidiary of the Asahi Shimbun)
             CANAL TOWER  9-3 Nihonbashi-Koamicho Chuo-ku Tokyo 103  Japan
   +81 3 3666 2881(voice) 2882(fax)  EMAIL TO <akira@atson.asahi-np.co.jp>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Oct 1993 21:38:54 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Bataan Death March -- Deaths

I would act fast, these WWII vets' numbers are really starting to thin.
  My Dad is 73!  (That means I am . . . . AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Oct 1993 21:47:57 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Al Stewart:  "Past, Present, Future" album

I trust EVERYBODY has a copy of this "most excellent" album?!

Lou Coatney
  WIU

(Even better than Mason Williams' "Music."  Has anyone else heard the
  "The Ballad of J. Edgar Swoop"?)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Oct 1993 18:34:39 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: Bataan Death March

>
>         I'm interested in the Bataan Death March survivors too. My best
> friend's dad was on the march. Those who survived the actual march
> became some of the earliest American POWs, which meant they had a long
> time in the Japanese death camps. My friend's father died OF his
> camp treatment in the 1950s. He had ulcerative colitis caused by the parasites
> in camp food. Apparently in the 1950s the medical folk had not learned
> how to control colitis with steroids as they do today. I'd like to
> hear more about the whole group of Death Marchers too.

The last person I met on my last day of active duty in the army was a NG
tanker and survivor of the March.  He asked me to take a picture of him
in front of the street sign named after his unit at Ft. Knox.  A real nice
guy, with a lot of interesting stories.

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 19 Oct 1993 to 20 Oct 1993
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Status: O

There are 24 messages totalling 758 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. A PhD in History (3)
  2. Al Stewart:  "Past, Present, Future" album (4)
  3. Alex Drabit
  4. Bataan Death March (4)
  5. GEN: Awardses (2)
  6. REF: Encyclopedia of German Tanks of WWII
  7. Al Stewart:  Past,
  8. Carpetbaggers (2)
  9. Al Stewart: "Past, Present, Future" album (2)
 10. WWII Kills
 11. Bataan Death March veterans
 12. "...shortened the war by six months" ??
 13. REF: comfort women

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 21 Oct 1993 00:28:23 EST
From:    Denis <OUELLETT@UCS.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: A PhD in History

Strange how a question about the Batton Death March and getting a
Ph.D show up on the same list.
I'll be glad to tell you horror stories about what happens when the
Professor you thought you where going to work with takes that nice
job offer accross the country or in Europe.
Or your department suddenly decides to change its "focus" of research.
So your way ahead of the game by thinking about these things now.
Basically - be very skeptical about any they say in brochures,
anything an advisor tells you. Unlike a business you can't sue them
for breach of contract.  The best real source of info are the
doctoral students themselves - talk to a cross section -everyone from
the still optomistic first years who haven't started thinking about
qualifying exams yet to a few embiddered seventh year students.
Sorry this doesn't have much to do with WWII, except that getting a
Ph.D usually takes about the same number of years as the war lasted.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 21 Oct 1993 00:35:17 EST
From:    Denis <OUELLETT@UCS.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Al Stewart:  "Past, Present, Future" album

Am I missing something obvious here.  Does Al Stewart do a few tracks
on the album about tanks?  Maybe it's heavy metal?

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 21 Oct 1993 10:03:48 GMT
From:    Johannes van Vuren <VANVUREN_J@SND02.PCR.CO.UK>
Subject: Alex Drabit

In yesterday's Times of London, there was the following obituary:

        "Alex Drabit, who was credited with helping shorten the second
         world war in Europe by leading fellow American soldiers across
         a key German bridge under fire, died in a car accident en route
         to his Army unit reunion on September 28. he was 82.

         On March 7, 1945, Drabit, then a sergeant, led a dash across the
         Rhine River bridge at Ramagen. The capture of the bridge was an
         unexpected coup that allowed Allied forces to pierce Nazi Germany's
         defensive barrier. As Americam troups approached the Rhine after
         their victories in the Battle of the Bulge, the Germans began
         destroying bridges across the river to buy time.

         Brigadier General William Hoge had been ordered to turn south at
         Ramagen to link up with armoured troups. But Hoge decided instead
         to attack the bridge itself.

         Drabit, a squad leader, was the first to make it across under heavy
         machine gun fire. He was the third-oldest man in the company and he
         ran the entire length, about three football fields, being shot at all
         the time.

         Eisenhower said later that the capture of the bridge at Ramagen
         shortened the war in Europe by six months."

Johannes van Vuren,
Canterbury,
England.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 21 Oct 1993 06:07:22 EDT
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <hb9388@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bataan Death March

>I met a fellow -- a father of a friend -- up in Juneau, Alaska.  She knew
>  I was a WWII buff and cautioned me to say NOTHING to him about his
>  experience, since he wouldn't talk about it.
>
>They gave me a ride home after work, one evening, so we got started talking
>  about it (to my friend's horror).  He was willing to talk about it, quite
>  candidly.
>
>The next morning, with big circles under her eyes, she said he had continued
>  talking about it, with her and her mother, all through the night and into
>  the morning.  She was grateful I had been the catalyst to finally open up
>  her father.
>
>I was taking a big risk, though, and I knew it; but they were good people
>  and worth it.
>
>Lou Coatney, WIU
>

Lou:

Good for you!  I have had similar experiences with a couple for LRRP vets from
the 101st ABN DIV (RVN).

Barry

Barrett F. Lowe                    RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, US Military Academy, West Point, NY 10996

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 21 Oct 1993 06:53:41 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bataan Death March

Lou,

Well said! I have had the very same experience with a gentleman who
was serving at Nichols Field in the Philippines when he was captured
by the Japanese. Needless to say, he survived the BDM, and, I was
told to be very careful about bringing up this subject with him, as
he still has nightmares about that experience to this day. In fact,
his health has always been marginal ever since I have known the man.

Last year, I was told that he would be willing to discuss it with me,
and, when I had the chance to visit him, he told me some of the
experiences he had had to endure. He also loaned me two books about
it, one being an unpublished memoir of a Navy comrade who had
survived but had died in the '50's.

His wife told me afterward that her husband had never shown, much
less loaned out those books, to anyone at all, since he had come into
their possession.

But, yes, you are quite right. One must be very careful about
broaching sensitive topics like that, but, you know, if the situation
is handled properly, it has a positive effect on the veteran. I have
always felt that if they can talk about it, it is a way for them to
let go of those very bad times, and not carry around the baggage that
those negative experiences create.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 21 Oct 1993 06:59:35 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: A PhD in History

Steve,

The University of Wisconsin would be a good start. Yale University and
Stanford strike me as the schools you might investigate. Bothe of
these schools have substantial collections relating to war and
politics.

These are only suggestions. No one single school comes to mind that
stands out particularly well, when it comes to dealing exclusively
with WWII. Have you thought about overseas? Oxford and Cambridge
would be excellent choices.

Terry Moore

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 21 Oct 1993 07:59:54 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: GEN: Awardses

> >      Tieffliegervernichtungsabzeichen!  Really?  That award was one of
> > the last awards established (ordered by Hitler on Jan 12th 1945, confirmed
>
> The story that came along with it was that an American or British
> plane was shot down by a tank commander using the hatch MG34 in the
> commander's cupola of a Panther.  Of course one never knows for sure
> as they are faking things so well these days.  This particular piece
> has been in my collection since 1983 and I was *very* fortunate to
> have found it.  It smells strongly of diesel fuel.  I have seen many
> fakes of this award and in comparison none are even close.  I am
> 99.99% confident that this is a good one but, again, I was not there
> so the possibility exists its not, however remote.  Its the risk all
> collectors take.  Remember the Hermann Goring Wedding Sword swindle?
> That item was quite convincingly documented including photographs of
> the veteran holding the sword.  You just never know. :-/

Yah.  Foo.

Even photographs today are no proof with the technology available in
affordable Macintoshes for the home.  An expert can identify fakes
rather quickly, but the average collector (the person who buys at
militaria shows, etc.) would never know.

Just as a simple example, I have a full color, high quality photograph
that _proves_ Miss Mitchell, complete with installed turrets, is
flying formation with itself.

I also have photographic proof that our Harvard Mk IV was flying (and
obviously landed safely) with no one on board.  :-)

Even with an eyeloupe, you can't tell they are doctorered photos.  An
expert will be able to tell you fairly quickly, however, that the photo
must be suspect because it clearly enlarges to a bit pattern within the
grain pattern -- highly unusual for an original photo.  :-)

It's fairly easy today to doctor a photo to most people's acceptance
that would be able to have you, personally, while wearing a Minnesota
Twins World Series Championship sweatshirt (now an obvious collectors
item itself :-) being awarded any medal you want from Adolf himself.
(He migh even be offering you a Pepsi, which would _prove_ it's a fake.
It's well know us computer hackers never touch that P stuff... :-)

Unfortunately, it makes the authentication of artifacts more difficult
for the average collector or preserver.  You might be able to determine
whether the item is or almost certainly is authentic by looking at it,
but you might never be able to fully determine its history without a
fair amount of paper evidence.

(This is where the "lower cost" items are still reasonably safe.  No sane
idiot is going to spend several hours a day for several weeks faking the
history of an item that will end up selling for $70...)

But that guy at a local militaria show showing off and wanting to sell
a complete German uniform worn by Himmler himself, should be considered
suspect from the beginning...  If he had such a thing, why go to a small
show to try and sell it?

At least we can document airplanes, still.  :-)

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 21 Oct 1993 08:16:02 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bataan Death March

> >I met a fellow -- a father of a friend -- up in Juneau, Alaska.  She knew
> >  I was a WWII buff and cautioned me to say NOTHING to him about his
> >  experience, since he wouldn't talk about it.
> >
> >They gave me a ride home after work, one evening, so we got started talking
> >  about it (to my friend's horror).  He was willing to talk about it, quite
> >  candidly.
> >
> >The next morning, with big circles under her eyes, she said he had continued
> >  talking about it, with her and her mother, all through the night and into
> >  the morning.  She was grateful I had been the catalyst to finally open up
> >  her father.
> >
> >I was taking a big risk, though, and I knew it; but they were good people
> >  and worth it.
>
> Lou:
>
> Good for you!  I have had similar experiences with a couple for LRRP vets from
> the 101st ABN DIV (RVN).

There is definitely a risk when doing something like this, but the payoffs
(for all!) can be extraordinary.

One of my favorite stories is the one I've repeated more than once about
the B-29 -- A crewman was heading to an aircraft for a flight demonstration
when he spotted someone in the crowd he thought looked familiar.  When he
spoke to him, he realized it was someone he flew B-29 missions with in WWII.
He got someone to replace him on the aircraft, grabbed the guy and hauled
him into the B-29 to "chat."  Hot day, making it much hotter inside, which
they didn't care about.

After several hours of reminiscing, catching up, etc., they exchanged
addresses and phone numbers and swore to keep in touch.

Shortly after, he received a call from the friends wife who introduced
herself and asked if he had noticed anything about him, to which he
basically said "no." (other than being older, etc.)  She informed him
that several years ago, he had suffered a major stroke and hadn't spoken
more than a half dozen words in all that time ... but when he got home
from the show, he was talking up a storm about WWII and for many hours,
she couldn't get a word in edgewise.  (She called to thank him, because
the B-29 and meeting an old crewmember had been some sort of catalyst
that was, in this case, physically therapeutic).

It's important to get people's stories now.  The ranks are dwindling
way too fast.  I attended more funerals than I want to count last
year (I could have attended more than a dozen).  Most of those people
had not been interviewed and they ALL had stories.  We're waiting right
now on word of when another funeral is going to be.

[BTW: I've now seen the USAF video of the Doolittle funeral -- that is
one impressive event ... All symbolism and ceremony.  Wow!]

The CAF has an active oral history program that needs help.  Obviously,
it is impossible to capture the personal history of every living WWII
veteran, but we should be able to record more than the 2,000 or so that
are currently on file!

Anyone wishing to become involved and start recording these stories for
all time should get in touch with the CAF Oral History Department by
calling 915/563-1000, tell them I sent you (from the Southern Minnesota
Wing) and alert them that you want to help doing interviews.

You'll receive nothing in return except admiration, thanks and the
satisfaction knowing you preserved another story for all time...
(and a copy of the tape... :-)

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 21 Oct 1993 09:37:08 -0400
From:    "M. Joseph Barone" <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: Al Stewart:  "Past, Present, Future" album

From: Denis <OUELLETT@UCS.INDIANA.EDU>:
> Am I missing something obvious here.  Does Al Stewart do a few tracks
> on the album about tanks?  Maybe it's heavy metal?

        It's been a while since I've listened to it (my turntable has
been mothballed) but there is a track entitled, "Tigers are Burning".
The lyrics follow the invasion of Russia and the German retreat.  This
album turned me on to Al Stewart.  Has this been released as a CD?
--
Joe Barone
m1b@rayssd.ssd.ray.com
When we go into battle, we like to play music.  Loud music.  We find
that it soothes us...

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 21 Oct 1993 09:27:16 EST
From:    Mike Long <MLONG@UCONNVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: REF: Encyclopedia of German Tanks of WWII

On Wed, 20 Oct 1993 14:44:53 EDT William B. Thacker said:
>Last night there was a package waiting at my house from the Military Book
>Club.  It contained the two copies of the revised version of _The
>Encyclopedia of German Tanks of WWII_ by Chamberlain, Doyle, and Jentz.
>
>I was happy to see the revised edition offered; my original copy of the
>first edition, bought in '78, is a shambles from years of hard use.  (The
>second copy is an early deposit on my Christmas shopping!)


Hi,good ol buddy Bill, I'm still on your Christmas list, RIGHT ;)

Mike Long
196 AUDITORIUM ROAD, U-138    |   BITNET: MLONG@UCONNVM.BITNET
STORRS, CONNECTICUT, USA      | INTERNET: MLONG@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU
                   06269-3138 |    PHONE: (203) 486-1352

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 21 Oct 1993 12:57:38 EDT
From:    Charles Reace <creace@ISD.CSC.COM>
Subject: Re: Al Stewart:  "Past, Present, Future" album

"'Forward," he cried from the rear, and the front ranks died.
The generals sat, and the lines on the map moved from side to side."

(Pink Floyd, "Us and Them", DARK SIDE OF THE MOON)

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <creace@isd.csc.com>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 21 Oct 1993 13:32:57 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <kc5318@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Al Stewart:  Past,

>From: Denis <OUELLETT@UCS.INDIANA.EDU>:
>> Am I missing something obvious here.  Does Al Stewart do a few tracks
>> on the album about tanks?  Maybe it's heavy metal?
>
>        It's been a while since I've listened to it (my turntable has
>been mothballed) but there is a track entitled, "Tigers are Burning".
>The lyrics follow the invasion of Russia and the German retreat.  This
>album turned me on to Al Stewart.  Has this been released as a CD?
>--
>Joe Barone
>m1b@rayssd.ssd.ray.com
>When we go into battle, we like to play music.  Loud music.  We find
>that it soothes us...


The proper title of the song is "Roads to Moscow" and it is a terrific musical
intro to any class on the Eastern Front in WWII.  That album also includes a
song "Old Admirals" that covers British naval tradition and  "Post World War
II Blues" that provides interesting vignettes leading up to the present (I
always play it after my students have just completed their big test on WWII).
There is also a song about June 1944.
                                         LTC Con Crane
                                         USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 21 Oct 1993 13:55:13 -0500
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: GEN: Awardses

In Robert's message of 21 Oct 1993 at 1147 CDT, he sez:

> > collectors take.  Remember the Hermann Goring Wedding Sword swindle?
> > That item was quite convincingly documented including photographs of
> > the veteran holding the sword.  You just never know. :-/
>
> Yah.  Foo.
>
> Even photographs today are no proof with the technology available in
> affordable Macintoshes for the home.  An expert can identify fakes
> rather quickly, but the average collector (the person who buys at
> militaria shows, etc.) would never know.
>
> Just as a simple example, I have a full color, high quality photograph
> that _proves_ Miss Mitchell, complete with installed turrets, is
> flying formation with itself.

In the case of the Hermann Goring Wedding Sword the ruse was no less
elaborate but not nearly as reliant on technology.  In this case the
guy went to the factory that made the sword originally and had a copy
made.  They had all the design plans so it was no problem.  He then
located a veteran from the 101st who agreed to put on his uniform and
appear holding the sword while in uniform (plus sunglasses since it
hid his age better) in front of Aladdin's Cave in Bavaria.  The faker
then took a few shots of him with his handy-dandy brownie camera and
some black & white film.  Instant history.

So here's what you've got, a beautiful sword that has been lost since
1945, photos of the thing "in 1945" with the guy who brought it back
and when you check him out, sure enough he was in the 101st in
Bavaria in 1945.  Every thing checks out so you write your check for
60K and take your sword home and call your buddies to brag.  One of
them writes a book with a photo of your sword on the cover.
Everything is great until you get a letter from a collector in Germany
who says "hey I didn't give you permission to use a photo of my sword
on your book and how did you get it anyway?"  Ooops!

This is *supposed* to be a fun hobby..... then came free market
economy theory and now most collectors I know are buying one or two
items a year or getting new things by trade.  Having just come from
the Max show in Baltimore this weekend let me assure you that there
appears to be no end in sight to ever ascending militaria prices.  As
the prices go up it becomes more and more profitable to make
undetectable fakes.  What happens then they *do* become 100%
indistinguishable from originals?  Do we all start collecting
bubblegum cards???  That's why I am so heavily involved in research
these days.

Cheers, Bill Huber
whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 21 Oct 1993 14:09:30 -0400
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Carpetbaggers

Would the person who posted requesting information on the
801(P)/492nd BG, known as the Carpetbaggers, please reply
directly to me?  I have additional information and want to
make you an offer you can't refuse, but have lost/forgotten
your name and address.

Sorry for the inconvenience to the rest of the list.

Dennis E. Sparks
SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 21 Oct 1993 15:45:30 -0400
From:    "Robert F. Kieran" <rkieran@NIC.NEAR.NET>
Subject: Re: Al Stewart: "Past, Present, Future" album

        From: "M. Joseph Barone" <m1b@ssd.ray.com>
        Subject: Re: Al Stewart:  "Past, Present, Future" album
        Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1993 09:37:08 -0400

        From: Denis <OUELLETT@UCS.INDIANA.EDU>:
        > Am I missing something obvious here.  Does Al Stewart do a few tracks
        > on the album about tanks?  Maybe it's heavy metal?

                It's been a while since I've listened to it (my turntable has
        been mothballed) but there is a track entitled, "Tigers are Burning".
        The lyrics follow the invasion of Russia and the German retreat.  This
        album turned me on to Al Stewart.  Has this been released as a CD?
        --
        Joe Barone
        m1b@rayssd.ssd.ray.com
        When we go into battle, we like to play music.  Loud music.  We find
        that it soothes us...

     Yes, this album came out on CD about a year ago. And the title of
this song is "Roads To Moscow".

     The verse someone excerpted in their .sig file goes:

        Two broken Tigers on fire in the night
        Flicker their souls to the wind
        We wait in the lines for the final assault to begin
        Its been almost four years that I've carried a gun
        At home, it'll almost be spring
        The flames of the Tigers are lighting the road to Berlin

     I have heard it said that Al Stewart's father was an RAF pilot who
was killed in the Battle Of Britian. This album, "Past, Present, Future",
is a chronicle of 20th Century history in general. "Roads To Moscow"
deals with the Eastern Front. This is the only WWII related song on the
album, though. Pity.

                                                Cheers
                                                Bob Kieran
                                                rkieran@nic.near.net

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 21 Oct 1993 16:21:58 -0500
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: WWII Kills

Repost from rec.aviaton.military:

>I think we should take it as a given that ALL victory claims are inflated,
>whatever the air force. When I compared Flying Tiger (AVG) combat reports
>with Japanese accounts of the same combats, I concluded that the Tigers
>shot down about 115 planes (or destroyed them on the ground) rather than
>the roughly 300 for which they were paid combat bonuses or the 600 (or
>1000!) attributed in popular romances. Similarly, John Lundstrom has
>whittled away at both US Navy and JNAF fighter claims in his books, THE
>FIRST TEAM and (due from Naval Institute Press in December) THE FIRST TEAM
>AT GAUDALCANAL.

John? Can we take it as a "given"? Proganda would seem to make it necessary
but are the post-war totals very accurate at all?

Larry J


--
JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Oct 1993 19:27:14 -0500
From:    Jim Brady <p00954@PSILINK.COM>
Subject: Re: Bataan Death March

>Somebody wrote yesterday about the last surviving Bataan Death March
>survivor.  I know of at least one more here in San Antonio, Texas.
                                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>He had been a Coastal Artillery officer on one of the islands.  I
>have his autobiography (unpublished) in my library.  If anyone is
>interested I will see if he will allow me to put excerpts on the list.
>
>Cheers, Bill Huber
>whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil
>
Bill, if he does agree, we might be interested in doing a feature
story. We are a few hundred miles away, but as pointed out, there
aren't many survivors of Bataan left. Could make for some good reading.
Would you mind emailing me as situation develops?
Much obliged...
                                     Jim Brady
                                 p00954@psilink.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 21 Oct 1993 14:41:15 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Bataan Death March veterans

Thanks, Bear.  Has the little cub arrived yet?  (I trust he(?) landed on
  the delivery room floor with a Ranger Roll, yelling "Rangers Lead the
  Way!" and then chased the nearest/prettiest nurse around the table a
  half-dozen times before you could grab him.

(If she was a girl, I trust she is as pretty as her mother.)

Lou

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 21 Oct 1993 14:37:13 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: "...shortened the war by six months" ??

Nah.  One month -- maybe.

The British had little trouble bridging the lower Rhine, although Monte
  apparently expected some, judging from his spectacular production --
  paras, etc.

On the other hand, that was a looooonnnnnnnnnggggggggggggggggg dash!

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 21 Oct 1993 14:31:13 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Al Stewart:  "Past, Present, Future" album

"Road to Moscow" is incredible, Denis.

Lou

Stewart must be a WWII buff.  I haven't heard anything (let alone ...
  equal) from in a decade.  I hope he isn't a (drug) casualty.

He is Scotch, I believe.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 21 Oct 1993 17:30:31 -0500
From:    Valerie Smith <smithv@CS.UWP.EDU>
Subject: Re: REF: comfort women

One thousand "thank yous" to Kevin for his help.  I checked with NBC in New
York, and Dateline  NBC ran a segment on Comfort Women on August 10, 1993.

Thanks to everyone who provided me with leads on the show and on other
possible sources for the info.  Now all I have to do is get a copy of the
tape.  The recording at NBC's News Archives department said a VHS tape was
$150 for the first 5 minutes, additional for longer periods of time.  I
thought you could get these tapes for about $20-$30??

Oh well, where there's a will, I'll get my project done.

Thanks again, everyone!!

On Tue, 19 Oct 1993, Kevin Kamphaus wrote:

> I believe the show on confort women may have been on "Dateline NBC" which runs
> Tuesdays at 10pm. I also saw this show and I don't think it was on Prime Time
> or 20/20.
>
> Kevin Kamphaus
> usr5066A@cbos.uc.edu
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 21 Oct 1993 18:36:32 -0400
From:    Bob Smart <bsmart@SMART.COM>
Subject: Re: A PhD in History

> Folks:
>
>      I've been lurking about for a long while and I wanted to call upon
> the knowledge of this group for guidance.  After years of agonizing I've
> nearly decide to enter a PhD program in History.  Of course, what I
> really want to do is study somewhere that would allow me to write my
> dissertation on WWII.  Do any of you know any programs that are
> particularly well known for professors or collections involving WWII?
>

You might also look at what is available in the area but not actually part of
the school. For example Here in the DC area you have lots of government
archives. a few hours away in Lexington is the George C. Marshall Library at
VMI ( I don't think they have a graduate program).  A couple hours north is
Carlisle.  Just a thought about factors that may or may not show up when you
look at a school.

Bob Smart (bsmart@smart.com)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Oct 1993 11:32:09 +1000
From:    Derek Monz <gldrm@JCU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Carpetbaggers

On Thu, 21 Oct 1993, Dennis E. Sparks wrote:

> Would the person who posted requesting information on the
> 801(P)/492nd BG, known as the Carpetbaggers, please reply
> directly to me?  I have additional information and want to
> make you an offer you can't refuse, but have lost/forgotten
> your name and address.
>
> Sorry for the inconvenience to the rest of the list.
>
> Dennis E. Sparks
> SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU
> Lexington, Kentucky

     Dennis, make me an offer too?, i wouldn't mind that stuff on the
carpetbaggers as well 8-). <pl....ease ?>.
cheers derek.


EMail: gldrm@manta.jcu.edu.au           Derek Monz @ JCU 1993
       stu17@groper.jcu.edu.au          Disclamer: - I didn't do it!
" If there is anything more important than my Ego.....
                 I want taken out and shot!"  (Zaphod Beablbrox (HHGTTG)).

                            ((-------))
                                \o/
                                 |
                               _/ \_

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 21 Oct 1993 23:48:40 -0400
From:    Steven VEST <vest@ALPHA.ACAST.NOVA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Al Stewart: "Past, Present, Future" album

Folks:
     Oh what a lot of interest can be stirred up by a simple sig.!  Al
Stewart is alive and well and just released a new album two weeks ago.
He Scots by birth but lives in L.A. now.  Many of his songs are on
various and sundry historic themes.  He's a bit of a buff but not exactly
a grognard, so he makes the occasional glaring mistake.   He's written
four or five very good songs about the war years including  "The last day
of June 1934" about  Hitler eliminating the last of his rivals.  If
you've never listened to his stuff beyond his one real hit "Year of the
Cat"  I heartily recommend him.  Most of his fans consider him a
"thinking persons" pop/folk singer.

      He has a definite cadre of hard core fans and even has his own
Listserv. So if you're interested take a look at
al-stewart@death.Corp.Sun.COM

      Oh yes.  And thanks to all of you who responded to my question
about graduate programs.  I'm already sending off for catalogs and
resigning myself to having no life or money for a few years!

Thanks Again
        Steven
========================== vest@alpha.acast.nova.edu=========================
= Steven Vest: Head, Off Campus Lib. Services: Nova University, Ft. Ldl, FL  =
Closer and closer to Moscow they come. Riding the wind like a bell. General
Guderian stands at the crest of the hill.  Al Stewart.  Past Present & Future
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


On Thu, 21 Oct 1993, Lou Coatney wrote:

> "Road to Moscow" is incredible, Denis.
>
> Lou
>
> Stewart must be a WWII buff.  I haven't heard anything (let alone ...
>   equal) from in a decade.  I hope he isn't a (drug) casualty.
>
> He is Scotch, I believe.
>

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 20 Oct 1993 to 21 Oct 1993
*************************************************

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Status: O

There are 14 messages totalling 531 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Al Stewart:  Past, Present, Future
  2. Obituary - Colonel Erich Hartmann
  3. "...shortened the war by six months" ?? (2)
  4. Bataan Death March (2)
  5. WWII Kills (2)
  6. Patton one-upping Monty
  7. Chaco War, 1932-1935
  8. Al Stewart: "Past, Present, Future" album
  9. Carpetbaggers
 10. INF: The Longest Day
 11. Plane GIF's now available

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 21 Oct 1993 20:14:17 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Al Stewart:  Past, Present, Future

Con,

     Must have been those force-fed USMA fine arts (sort of like Plebe
Boxing?)

     I am personally responsible for the NO PLEBES in the Library music
listening rooms rule.  (I about wore out their best copy of Shostakovich's
5th the one semester I was there.)

     What is your direct e-mail address?

Lou Coatney  mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Oct 1993 06:21:21 -0500
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Obituary - Colonel Erich Hartmann

Reposted from rec.aviation.military:
>Here is an obituary to Colonel Erich Hartmann, published yesterday
>in the Daily Telegraph.
>
>
>
> Colonel Erich Hartmann, the German fighter ace who has died near Stuttgart
>aged 71, scored the record total of 352 "victories" during the Second World
>War.
> Such a phenomenal number may seem fanciful, but it was carefully validated.
>Most of it was accumulated on the Eastern Front, where the Soviet aircraft
>were no match for his Me 109. Nor, in general, were the opposing pilots in
>"Bubi" Hartmann's league.
> His strike rate accelerated dramatically in the desperate Battle of Kursk on
>the Central Front. On July 7 1943 he destroyed seven Red Air Force aircraft
>over the battle.
> Yet he was unquestionably an "ace of aces", as he demonstrated on the rare
>occasions when he encountered American aircraft. Towards the end of the war
>his piloting skills and marksmanship were tested against American Mustangs.
>In 1945 he shot down five American Mustang fighter pilots over Romania in two
>sorties on one day, and shortly afterwards two more over Czechoslovakia.
>Hartmann ascribed his success to close combat. "My only tactics", he recalled,
>"were to wait until I had the chance to attack the enemy and then close in at
>high speed. I opened fire only when the whole windshield was black with the
>enemy. Then not a single shot went wild. I hit the enemy with all my guns and
>he went down."
> Only once was he himself shot down. On Aug 20 1943 he scrambled out of his
>crippled Me 109 unscathed and into the hands of Soviet soldiers.
> Feigning injury, he was placed on a stretcher in a truck and driven, so he was
>told, to find a doctor. On the way he sprang up, threw his guard against the
>cab and dodged shots as he scrambled through a field full of swaying sunflower
>stalks.
> Sleeping by day and walking by night, he reached the front where he was almost
>shot by a German sentry who challenged him. Shortly afterwards he rejoined his
>fighter group, JG-52.
> Erich Hartmann was born at Weissach in the former kingdom of Wurttemburg on
>April 19 1922. He spent his early boyhood in China where his father was a
>doctor. The family returned to Germany at a time when clandestine preparations
>were being made to rebuild the air force, using gliding centres. From the age
>of 14, young Erich was encouraged by his mother - herself a pilot- to learn
>to glide.
> In 1938, still only 16, he qualified as a gliding instructor. On Nov 15 1940
>he joined Luftwaffe Training Regiment 10, near Konigsberg in East Prussia.
>The next year he moved to the Air Academy School at Gatow airfield, Berlin.
>On graduating he was posted to the Russian front to join 7th Squadron of JG-52,
>which he eventually commanded.
> Fair-haired, blue-eyed and baby-faced, he was nicknamed "Bubi" and "the Blond
>Knight".
> While his score mounted, Hartmann longed to be with his sweetheart, Ursula
>"Usch" Puetsch; a bleeding heart pierced by an arrow was painted on the fuselage
>of his aircraft.
> By the time they married in 1944 he was a celebrated figure in the Third Reich.
>To his Knight's Cross was added a succession of Oak Leaves, Swords and finally
>Diamonds.
> His Aryan features became a familiar sight at Hitler's "Wolf's Lair" battle
>headquarters.
> When Hartmann was summoned to receive the Diamonds after the failed
>assassination attempt on Hitler of July 1944, he was told to disarm himself
>before entering the presence of the Fuhrer. "No pistol", Hartmann insisted,
>"no Diamonds - unless I am trusted". When his point had been accepted, he
>duly surrendered his weapon.
> On other occasions when Hitler commanded his presence, Hartmann arrived in
>such an inebriated state that the Nazi aides were hard put to stop him from
>juggling with the Fuhrer's cap.
> After flying his last operational sortie on May 8 1945 - the day the war in
>Europe ended - Hartmann landed on an airfield under Soviet fire after
>scoring his final and 352nd victory.
> He then marched his group and its camp followers towards the American lines
>at Pisek in Czechoslovakia and surrendered to the 90th US Infantry Division.
>Eight days later the Americans handed the group over to the Russians who
>separated women and girls and raped many of them in front of their menfolk.
>Most of the women were never seen again.
> Hartmann was sent to Russia and imprisoned for 10 bleak years during which he
>suffered intense hardship until Chancellor Adenauer negotiated his repatriation
>in 1956. The next year he resumed with the new German air force and learned
>to fly jets with the Ameicans at Kraut Field, Luke Air Force Base, Arizona.
>In 1959 he received command of a German fighter wing and was promoted colonel
>before his retirement.
>
>Hartmann and his wife had a daughter.


--
JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Oct 1993 08:11:03 EDT
From:    Charles Reace <creace@ISD.CSC.COM>
Subject: Re: "...shortened the war by six months" ??

And don't forget that on the eve of Monty's big Rhine-crossing operation,
Patton sent a couple batallions across the Rhine in his sector, just more
of their continual one-upmanship battle.  I recall reading that these
crossings by Patton were suprisingly successful, but I do not recall whether
they were ultimately well-exploited and influential on the strategic
picture.

-cwr-  B^)

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <creace@isd.csc.com>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Oct 1993 08:44:03 -0500
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: Bataan Death March

In your message of 21 Oct 1993 at 2024 CDT, you write:
> >Somebody wrote yesterday about the last surviving Bataan Death March
> >survivor.  I know of at least one more here in San Antonio, Texas.
>                                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >He had been a Coastal Artillery officer on one of the islands.  I
> >have his autobiography (unpublished) in my library.  If anyone is
> >interested I will see if he will allow me to put excerpts on the list.
> >
> Bill, if he does agree, we might be interested in doing a feature
> story. We are a few hundred miles away, but as pointed out, there
> aren't many survivors of Bataan left. Could make for some good reading.
> Would you mind emailing me as situation develops?
> Much obliged...
>                                      Jim Brady
>                                  p00954@psilink.com

Hi Jim,

I will check and see if he is amenable but who is "we"?  Are you
speaking on behalf of the list or a publication?  He will want to know
because he will not talk about his experiences with anyone.  He wrote
the autobiography for his daughter and thus far has resisted
encouragement to have it published or donated to a library or museum.
His original is photo illustrated using snapshots he took
pre-invasion and you are right, it is good reading.

Let me know what you have in mind and I will relay it to him.

Regards,  Bill Huber
whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Oct 1993 09:36:13 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: WWII Kills

> Repost from rec.aviaton.military:
>
> >I think we should take it as a given that ALL victory claims are inflated,
> >whatever the air force. When I compared Flying Tiger (AVG) combat reports
> >with Japanese accounts of the same combats, I concluded that the Tigers
> >shot down about 115 planes (or destroyed them on the ground) rather than
> >the roughly 300 for which they were paid combat bonuses or the 600 (or
> >1000!) attributed in popular romances. Similarly, John Lundstrom has
> >whittled away at both US Navy and JNAF fighter claims in his books, THE
> >FIRST TEAM and (due from Naval Institute Press in December) THE FIRST TEAM
> >AT GAUDALCANAL.
>
> John? Can we take it as a "given"? Proganda would seem to make it necessary
> but are the post-war totals very accurate at all?

Postwar totals _have_ to be reasonably accurate.

While, for propaganda and/or political reasons a government may not
inform their public of the true scope or even truth of a matter, they
did still keep very accurate records of what truly transpired.  (In fact,
the Germans kept such damn good records that the contents of various
filing cabinets were incredibly incriminating -- an example is a POW I
know who assisted with the cataloging of files in his camp -- The Germans
literally photographed everything and everyone and documented them on
paper.  Found were photos of camp guards and commanders, shooting
prisoners, beating them or whatever.  Those files were not considered
important enough to destroy when Patton "visited.")

While the Allied loss figures for aircraft may not support an individual
Axis pilot's claim to total number of victories, but the overall picture
can be made to show whether the accounts were or were not inflated.

After each mission, the results of the mission were documented.  Those
records also show, from the same-side point of view, how many aircraft
were lost and _how_ they were lost (not just "enemy action"), but
"fighter," "flak," etc.).

If Allied figures claim that 1,000 aircraft were lost in a particular
period of time due to enemy fighters and Axis claims for that period
of time also show claims for 1,000 aircraft, the figures are not in any
way inflated, even though one individual may lay claim to all 1,000.
(THAT would be inflated, but nothing else :-).

So postwar totals have to be reasonably accurate.  Good records were
kept and not destroyed.  Records that were maintained day by day should
be considered reasonably accurate.  It would be impossible for a high-
scoring ace to lay claim to an extraordinary number of victories and
hope to get away with it unless there was a long-term concerted effort
to fabricate his records over the course of several years.  While a 300+
victory pilot may be very popular with the people, why would each and
every flight be documented with kills over the course of many years just
to come to this one point?  The claims of these pilots may or may not be
provable to an airplane, but they were at least documented on paper "as
time went on" leading one to accept they are probably quite accurate.

Exact numbers can never be known, but you know with a small percentage
of accuracy - More than statistically significant.

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Oct 1993 09:55:15 CDT
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Patton one-upping Monty

And we thought MONTY could be an irritant!  Teach those Brits to come to
  our rescue(?) in the Ardennes!  "French Gratitude"?  "American Gratitude"!

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Oct 1993 09:45:27 CDT
From:    "A.J. Wright" <MEDS002@UABDPO.BITNET>
Subject: Chaco War, 1932-1935

This request does not pertain strictly to WWII, but may be close enough
not to offend many. One of our faculty is researching anesthesia in the
German military during the Nazi era. His research has led him to the par-
ticipation of German advisors in the Chaco War, fought in the Chaco Desert
region of Paraguay and Bolivia 1932-1935. Apparently German advisers assisted
the Bolivians and supposedly provided them with poison gas. A search of the
Library of Congress database has yielded probably 300+ citations on the
Chaco War which the doctor is currently digesting. I thought I would pose
the matter to this forum in case anyone here has special knowledge/interest
in the Chaco War. Please contact me privately as I am not currently sub-
scribed to this list. Many thanks in advance.

A.J. Wright, MLS
Department of Anesthesiology Library
School of Medicine
University of Alabama at Birmingham
619 19th Street South
Birmingham AL 35233-6810
205/934-6500 (voice)
205/975-5963 (fax)
meds002@uabdpo.dpo.uab.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Oct 1993 12:00:40 EDT
From:    Charles <mcgrew@CS.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Al Stewart: "Past, Present, Future" album

        Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ecnuxa.bitnet> writes:
        Stewart must be a WWII buff.

... actually, I think he's just a history buff - his album "24
carrots" includes the song "Constantinople" about the siege and
conquest of that city in the mid-1400's.

Charles

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Oct 1993 12:01:54 -0500
From:    John Lundstrom <jl@CSD4.CSD.UWM.EDU>
Subject: Re: WWII Kills

Larry,
        It seems that claims are always inflated, mainly because no one in
combat usually has the time to follow their opponent down to the ground to
know for certain of his destruction. The key in these early campaigns is the
lack of gun cameras. It would be interesting to see how many claims in 1943-
45 were thrown out and never recorded when the gun camera film later failed
to substantiate the claims. I think the credits based on gun camera evidence
are much more substantial than than those which are not.
        For Guadalcanal I have the luxury of seeing the Japanese squadron
records with detailed flight schedules (even the names of all the bomber
crews) for every single mission I describe. That is the only reason I would
presume to comment upon claims versus action losses. I have found virtually
no instances where claims were deliberately inflated, but only honest errors
of perception in the heat of combat.

                                John Lundstrom  jl@csd4.csd.uwm.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Oct 1993 15:30:45 EDT
From:    Doug McCabe <mccabe@OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Carpetbaggers

                   Ohio University Electronic Communication


   Date:  22-Oct-1993 03:30pm EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject:  Re: Carpetbaggers


    Sorry to send this to the List but trying to go backchannel got me an
    error message.

    Dennis,

    I think I'm the one who was looking for more info on the Carpetbaggers.
    I might as well tell you why since it may help you with the additional
    info you have.

    Since Cornelius Ryan wrote _The Longest Day_ in the late 50's much has
    been released that was unknown or unreleased at that time.  We at the
    OU Archives would like to enhance his research materials and library
    now in our posession by creating a suppliment to the collection.  We
    are specifically interested in materials dealing with OVERLORD,
    MARKET-GARDEN, and the battle for Berlin.  Secondarily, are materials
    relating to periods before and after those operations (which, I
    suppose, would include most anything about the Western and Eastern
    Fronts).

    Since the revelation of the ULTRA secret in the mid 70's a great deal
    has come out on secret ops which have caused a great deal of
    re-thinking about how various operations developed and were resolved.
    It seems to me that the Carpetbaggers would have had numerous
    assignments before, during, and immediately after OVERLORD.  I find it
    very curious they were disbanded just a month before MARKET-GARDEN
    (September 1944) and wonder why.  If they were responsible for
    insertions in France and the low countries, wouldn't you think the high
    command would have wanted to have them available for the air drop and
    drive to Arnhem?

    Gosh, I hope the "offer you can't refuse" doesn't have anything to do
    with cement and fish!

    Doug McCabe
    mccabe@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu



Received:  22-Oct-1993 03:30pm

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Oct 1993 16:18:42 EDT
From:    Doug McCabe <mccabe@OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: INF: The Longest Day

                   Ohio University Electronic Communication


   Date:  22-Oct-1993 04:10pm EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject:  INF: The Longest Day


    Simon and Schuster has just contacted us for the photographs used in
    the first edition of _The Longest Day_.  They are re-printing the book
    to be ready for the 50th anniversary of D-Day.  WWII-L gets advance
    notice.  One hopes they do *not* splash claims on the cover like the
    one on my edition of _A Bridge Too Far_: "one of the most important
    books OF ALL TIME." [my emphasis]  Geeze, that's not pushing it a
    little too far, is it?

    Y' all rush out and get a copy, ya hear.

    Doug McCabe
    Ohio University Archives
    mccabe@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu



Received:  22-Oct-1993 04:18pm

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Oct 1993 14:44:34 -0500
From:    Jim Brady <p00954@PSILINK.COM>
Subject: Re: Bataan Death March

>
>In your message of 21 Oct 1993 at 2024 CDT, you write:
>> >Somebody wrote yesterday about the last surviving Bataan Death March
>> >survivor.  I know of at least one more here in San Antonio, Texas.
>>                                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> >He had been a Coastal Artillery officer on one of the islands.  I
>> >have his autobiography (unpublished) in my library.  If anyone is
>> >interested I will see if he will allow me to put excerpts on the list.
>> >
>> Bill, if he does agree, we might be interested in doing a feature
>> story. We are a few hundred miles away, but as pointed out, there
>> aren't many survivors of Bataan left. Could make for some good reading.
>> Would you mind emailing me as situation develops?
>> Much obliged...
>>                                      Jim Brady
>>                                  p00954@psilink.com
>
>Hi Jim,
>
>I will check and see if he is amenable but who is "we"?  Are you
>speaking on behalf of the list or a publication?  He will want to know
>because he will not talk about his experiences with anyone.  He wrote
>the autobiography for his daughter and thus far has resisted
>encouragement to have it published or donated to a library or museum.
>His original is photo illustrated using snapshots he took
>pre-invasion and you are right, it is good reading.
>
>Let me know what you have in mind and I will relay it to him.
>
>Regards,  Bill Huber
>whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil
>


Sorry I didn't mention it: The Fort Worth Star-Telegram is the major
daily newspaper for Tarrant County and Fort Worth (Dallas' unheard-of twin
city, and home of Vought? Lockeed? General Dynamics?-- whatever it is
this month.) ;-)

As it turns out, I just got word that a convention of Bataan DM
survivors is meeting this very weekend in Arlington, right here in our
front yard. So let me change my request: If I sent you a copy of our
story, perhaps you wouldn't mind slipping it out onto the WWII
discussion list? (Our Newsgroup mailing routine is not dependable,
otherwise I would do it myself.)

Let me know. And thanks for writing back.
                                               Yours,
                                             Jim Brady

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Oct 1993 16:42:25 -0500
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Plane GIF's now available

Reposted from rec.aviation.military:
>       Something like a year ago, (maybe 9 months,) a contact sheet of
>       various WWII plane gifs was posted with the notice that they
>       all had been submitted to wuarchive.wustl.edu. Well they finally
>       made it to the outside world.
>
>       They are not in the general archive catalog, but are in the
>       latest unsorted/uncataloged directory. (Two of the files seem
>       to be missing.) The list is (all have GIF extensions)
>
>       B17             B24             B25             B26             BF109
>       F4U             HE111           KATE1           LANCAST         MEPIT
>       P38             P40             P47             P51             PBY
>       TDB1
>
>       KATE1, LANCAST, AND TDB1 are only line drawings, but the rest are
>       full color photos of the real things.
>
>Frank R. Borger - Physicist     ___      It's 9:00 am. Do you know where your
>Michael Reese - U of Chicago   |___      children are? Well, it depends on
>Center for Radiation Therapy   | |_) _   whether or not the Judge opened
>net: Frank@rover.uchicago.edu    | \|_)  the schools today.
>ph: 312-791-8075 fa: 791-2517       |_)


--
JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Oct 1993 19:27:21 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: "...shortened the war by six months" ??

Charles,

The Patton crossing of the Rhine at Ludwigshafen, farther South from
Montgomery's crossing of the Rhine at Wesel,  was very successful. It
allowed him to advance into Czechoslovakia very rapidly. This tends
to get lost in the shuffle at the time, because it didn't have
anything to do with the thrust toward Berlin which everyone was
watching at the time.

As far as being of any strategic value, it tied down more German
troops that could have been used against the Russians and in the
Berlin area.

Hope this helps.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 21 Oct 1993 to 22 Oct 1993
*************************************************

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Status: O

There is one message totalling 58 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. finding plane gifs

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 23 Oct 1993 08:53:59 -0500
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: finding plane gifs

The original poster of the article about WWII airplane gifs sends this
file on how to retrieve them:

        FTP WUARCHIVE.WUSTL.EDU

        When asked for name, enter ANONYMOUS

        as asked, enter your net address as the password

        after signing on,
                        