Subject: WWII-L Digest - 14 Nov 1993 to 15 Nov 1993

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 00:00:41 -0500

There are 29 messages totalling 1059 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. David Irving (5)
  2. USAAF 15 NOV 43
  3. WANT: Proof-readers for D-Day book. (2)
  4. Robert Clary speech
  5. Veterans' Day, 1993.
  6. Reply to James Irwin (2)
  7. RAF vs USAAF heavy bombardment (4)
  8. Want:A-Bomb (6)
  9. Enforcing History (2)
 10. Deep Battle (game designs)
 11. Axis self-pity
 12. World War II Studies Association (2)
 13. Gen: Re: Thanks for your "Welcome Aboard"

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Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 06:48:32 -0500
From:    Akira Takiguchi <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: David Irving

>His position, as I understand it, is that Hitler was not aware of any
>attempts at murdering the Jews of Europe and he bases that opinion on
>the lack of any document signed by Hitler ordering executions.  He
>also says that there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz or anywhere
>else and that nobody was gassed to death in Nazi Germany.  He has to
>ignore literally tons of documentary evidence to cling to this
>opinion.

     In his 1977 _Hitler's War_ he claimed that Holocaust was not ordered
by Hitler, but he didn't deny the Holocaust itself.  When (or what book)
did he change his opinion?

     His books about Hitler and Rommel are famous for extensive research
but I think he tends to deny somebody else's opinion too harshly;  My
impression stemmed from the note about General Heinrici's scheme used
on the Oder front (retreat to the 2nd front before attack).  Irving
discredits Ryan (_The Last Battle_), insisting that this scheme was
Hitler's own invention.  But as Ryan's readers know, Heinrici used the
same scheme from winter 1941.  It must be true that Hitler ordered that,
but it is an overstatement that there is no reason to credit Heinrici
for the effective defense.
--
      Akira Takiguchi  VP, ATSON, Inc.  (a subsidiary of the Asahi Shimbun)
             CANAL TOWER  9-3 Nihonbashi-Koamicho Chuo-ku Tokyo 103  Japan
   +81 3 3666 2881(voice) 2882(fax)  EMAIL TO <[email-masked]>
--

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 07:08:57 -0500
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: USAAF 15 NOV 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
MONDAY, 15 NOVEMBER 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-70, Douglas

CENTRAL PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Seventh Air Force): 20+ B-24's from
Canton Island in the Phoenix Islands and Nanumea Island in the Ellice Islands
bomb Jaluit Atoll in the Marshall Islands, Mille Atoll in the Caroline
Islands, and Makin Island in the Gilbert Islands.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 20 B-24's are dispatched against the
Hong Kong-Kowloon area. Bad weather prevents 15 bombers from bombing the
targets; 5 bomb the docks at Kowloon.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): B-24's bomb Eleusis airfield in
Greece; P-38's provide escort.
  HQ 42d Bombardment Group (Medium) transfers from Ariana, Tunisia to Elmas,
Sardinia.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): XII Air Support Command B-25's bomb
Kalamaki airfield in Greece, and its fighters patrol the battle area. Other
Northwest African Tactical Air Force (NATAF) fighters hit road traffic S of
Ancona, Italy.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, 20 B-24's strike the airfield on Buka Island. On Bougainville Island,
18 B-24's bomb Kahili; fighter patrols destroy or damage several barges along
the coast and destroy 2 fuel dumps at Tonolai.
  The 72d Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 5th Bombardment Group (Heavy), ceases
operating from Guadalcanal Island and returns to it's base at Espiritu Santo
Island, New Hebrides Islands with B-24's.
  The 106th Reconnaissance Squadron (Bombardment), III Reconnaissance Command,
arrives on Guadalcanal Island from the US with B-25's. The squadron will be
reassigned to the Thirteenth Air Force on 19 Nov and will fly it's first
mission on 30 Jan 44.
  The 419th Night Fighter Squadron, XIII Fighter Command, arrives on
Guadalcanal Island from the US with P-38's and P-70's. The squadron will fly
it's first mission on 10 Dec.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 30+
B-24's pound Alexishafen; 88 B-25's heading for Wewak and Boram with an escort
of 16 P-40's are intercepted by Japanese fighters that are escorting bombers
attacking Gusap; the resulting battle causes the B-25's to abort the attack;
the US airplanes claim 20 of the enemy shot down; 2 P-40's are lost; P-47's
claim 5 more aircraft destroyed over Wewak.
  The 68th Troop Carrier Squadron, 433d Troop Carrier Group transfers from
Port Moresby to Nadzab, New Guinea with C-47's.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 07:38:31 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WANT: Proof-readers for D-Day book.

I've got replies from several people and will respond with a group message
to you when the replies settle down.

Thanks to those who replied already and I still need a few more readers to
reduce the amount of work any one person needs.

I'll send the full details of the project along this evening.

Larrry J

[email-masked]; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 06:49:10 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Robert Clary speech

Tim,

That presentation sounds most interesting. I, for one, would be very
interested in any additional details you may learn about Mr. Clary.
You may e-mail me privately, if noone else is interested.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 06:57:07 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: David Irving

Akira,

Thank you very much for that post. David Irving has sunk to a new
low, as far as I am concerned. Hitler had to know of the Holocaust,
because he was present at a get-together in which Henrietta von
Schirach made explicit reference to a roundup of Jews she had
personally witnessed while on a visit to Holland. Hitler was most
embarrassed at this revelation, and von Schirach's wife was never
in attendance at any other of these functions.

Thus, as far as I am concerned, Hitler had to know what was going on,
even if he had never actually ordered the Final Solution. However, I
personally think he did order it, and it is inconceivable to me that
an operation of this magnitude or anything else of consequence
in Germany at that time could not have been made known to him. My
feeling is, is that he verbally ordered this action himself,
but wanted absolutely nothing in print that could link his name with
this operation.

Thanks, again, Akira.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 06:59:08 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Veterans' Day, 1993.

Date sent:      Fri, 12 Nov 1993 16:19:16 EST
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <[email-masked]>
From:           Charles Reace <[email-masked]>
Subject:        Re: Veterans' Day, 1993.
Originally to:  [email-masked]
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <[email-masked]>

> We veterans in the private sector are required to work on OUR day . . .

I for one am glad we've always had plenty of people in this country
ready to put their lives on the line in its defense.  Each of you
certainly deserves one day off each year for such service.  But, if you
think about it, maybe it would be better if we just had the day but
let no one at all off from work.  It seems that when you make something
into a holiday, it starts to demean it -- at least in the US.  It becomes
an excuse to have special sales at the stores, barbecues, parties,
etc.  Just look at Christmas, or at Memorial day (which is supposed to
honor those who *died* for our country, while we drink beer and eat
BBQ'ed hot dogs!)

So each year, on the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh
month; pause at whatever you're doing and imagine a lone bugler in the
distance playing Taps, and give a profound "Thank you."

Amen to that, Charles!!

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 08:16:29 EST
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Reply to James Irwin

On Sun, 14 Nov 1993 14:37:12 CST Lou Coatney said:
>Yes, I'd say morality was pretty well out the window in WWII, and the Axis
>  were responsible for that.  Rape of Nanking, Bombing of Rotterdam,
>  Holocaust, etc., etc.
>
>Only deterrence prevailed, and that only because of demonstrated strength
>  and ruthlessness by the Allies -- finally.  The Axis only became
>  self-pitying and concerned with the morality of war once they were losing
>  and suffering themselves.

Actually, it didn't.  When Axis cities were going up in flames, they no
longer had the capacity to retaliate in kind, so talk of deterrence is moot.
I'm not sure what you mean by "self-pitying and concerned with the morality
of war", since at one level I don't think they *ever* were, and at a much lower
level, I think they *always* were.  My impression of the British aerial
campaign is that "Bomber" Harris just wanted revenge in spades & didn't
particularly care how he got it.

ken koester
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 08:59:32 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: RAF vs USAAF heavy bombardment

>On Fri, 12 Nov 1993 12:34:31 EST Denis Ouellette, Indiana Univ said:
>>One point to keep in mind is the relatively smaller size bombs and
>>bomb loads dropped by US bombers.  Being on target doesn't help much
>>if the munition isn't having much impact. (This point was made previosly
>>with respect to the fact that the Germans found that many factories hit
>>sustained only damage to the structure but most of the machine tools were
>>left untouched - the reason - the inadequate 500 pound bombs used by the
>>USSAF)
>
>Possibly, although I would suspect it is more a matter of needing direct
>hits to do much more than superficial damage.  Bombarding armor with
>155s instead of 75s doesn't get many more hits, for example; the same is
>likely true of machine tools.  I'd like to find a study sometime.
>
>ken koester
>[email-masked]
>

Ken,
     The problem with 500 pound bombs was that they did not do much more than
blow off roofs without damaging equipment below.  Besides their effectiveness
against transportation targets that I mentiond earlier, they were also ideal
for oil targets, however.  Once the AAF oriented on the proper target systems,
the 500 pounders were more than adequate.  Support for this line of argument is
abundant in the US Strategic Bombing Survey and German accounts.

                                             LTC Con Crane
                                             USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 11:34:43 -0400
From:    Cagan Gurer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Want:A-Bomb

I really don't know if this subjest has been discussed before or not, but
what I wanna know is that what was the major purpose of the Americans to
invent the A-bomb? Was the reason to use it on Germany? and did they know
anything about the effects of radiation?
Cagan
[email-masked]
CCGURER@OWUCOMN

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 10:37:50 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Enforcing History

In Bill Thacker's message of 14 Nov 1993 at 1555 CST, he writes:

> > with a 15,000 DM (as I recall) fine for his public comments.  He
> > appealed the decision and the judge hearing the appeal quadrupled the
> > fine (yea! Justice prevails!).
>
> German justice, perhaps.  Not mine.
>
> I guess George Orwell's _1984_ is passe' now, but it should be required
> reading for anyone who thinks the government ought to have the power to
> declare the Truth and penalize those who disagree.  This particular example
> might make that power look appealing, but think about it!

I've read _1984_ and _Fahrenheit 451_ but governments are in place to
serve and protect the people (although there are those who argue
that they are in power to stay in power for their own purposes, I
don't want to get afield of my point).

Germany has an elected government at the present time.  I feel that
the fine levied against Irving was a statement from the German
Government saying that the CURRENT German Govt. is looking out for
ALL its citizens and that it was quadrupled is indicative of the fact
that they mean business.  Irving is no victim.  He seems to thrive on
the notoriety just as Hitler did.  Irving is inciting hatred and
violence.  Even the US government has laws that forbid inciting riots
and revolution.  He is promoting the same ideas that a generation of
Americans and Brits went to war to eradicate.  Call me naive but I
think the current German government and people do not want the Nazis
to return to power.  I think Irving's prosecution was "from the
heart" rather than political.

> Should Christopher Columbus be honored as a gallant explorer or despised as
> a genocidal invader?  Who on this list would care to have our beloved
> Congress tell us, and fine or arrest anyone who disagrees?   Ideas, right
> or wrong, and the ability to express them, are what freedom is about.  And
> the ideas that are most important are often the ones the government doesn't
> want heard.

I know you are not equating the Holocaust with the discovery of the
Americas.  As for Congress, if they failed to protect Americans
legislatively they would not be doing their job.  It is important to
see through the veil that Freedom of Speech is used to camouflage
racism.  Our laws are fairly clear that you can say what you want but
if it is damaging to another person you can be sued for it.  The
nazis' platform is not that we should listen to Wagner over Pink
Floyd.  Those nuts are saying that some people have more right to
live than other people!!!  If government didn't stop people being
able to put those ideas into practice then what "freedom" does the
victim enjoy?

Say I write a book saying that left handed people are the root of all
evil and that the world would be a better place without them.  When
people take to the idea and start killing left handed people in an
effort to test my theory don't you think the freedom of left handed
may be infringed?  Would I be justified in saying that my freedom of
speech was being denied when the left handed world dropped a class
action suit on my silly ass for having done such a fool thing?  That's
the way I see these nazis operating.  They have the opinion that
freedom only applies to them.  It don't.  That's why they get fined
and sent to jail.  I have no problem with this.  Nobody is putting
the Flat Earth Society in jail or fining them.  Do you see my point??

I don't mean to jump on you Bill, and please don't think that I am
because I am not but I feel strongly that it is terribly
important to see that Irving and his chums are no friends of mankind.
I think you may not be completely informed on Irving's goals and
affiliations.  A lot of people are surprised.  I only learned of his
dealings this year and I was taken aback when I learned of his
activities.

Regards, Bill Huber
[email-masked]

> Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
> (614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              [email-masked]
>                       Humpty Dumpty was pushed!

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 11:52:18 EST
From:    Charles Reace <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WANT: Proof-readers for D-Day book.

LJ, I could help you out if you still need proofers.  I even worked for 5
years at a typesetting company so I actually feel semi-qualified.  If you
need me, I would prefer PC-compatible files.  Other than ASCII I can support
WordPerfect, and can get access to Word (and of course Write in Windows).

Reply to [email-masked]

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <[email-masked]>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 11:55:13 EST
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: RAF vs USAAF heavy bombardment

On Mon, 15 Nov 1993 08:59:32 EST Crane Conrad LTC said:
>     The problem with 500 pound bombs was that they did not do much more than
>blow off roofs without damaging equipment below.  Besides their effectiveness
>against transportation targets that I mentiond earlier, they were also ideal
>for oil targets, however.  Once the AAF oriented on the proper target systems,
>the 500 pounders were more than adequate. Support for this line of argument is
>abundant in the US Strategic Bombing Survey and German accounts.

Interesting.  But wouldn't any size bomb have the same problem (ie, premature
explosion from point of view of the actual target)?  Were payloads directed
against factories equipped with delayed impact fuses?  Did the Allies make
the same use of deliberately unexploded bombs that the Germans did against
Britain?  I should think that would be particularly effective against oil
targets:  you get the disruption of the raid itself, then the added delay
with dealing with unexploded ordnance before you can try to repair things.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 11:44:05 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: David Irving

In Akira's message of 15 Nov 1993 at 0553 CST, he writes:

> >His position, as I understand it, is that Hitler was not aware of any
> >attempts at murdering the Jews of Europe and he bases that opinion on
> >the lack of any document signed by Hitler ordering executions.  He
> >also says that there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz or anywhere
> >else and that nobody was gassed to death in Nazi Germany.  He has to
> >ignore literally tons of documentary evidence to cling to this
> >opinion.
>
>      In his 1977 _Hitler's War_ he claimed that Holocaust was not ordered
> by Hitler, but he didn't deny the Holocaust itself.  When (or what book)
> did he change his opinion?
>
>       His books about Hitler and Rommel are famous for extensive
> research...

I enjoy reading Irving's books and am in the middle of his biography
of Hermann Goering now but I have to keep in mind the author's frame
of reference.  He is a talented writer and knows how to dig out good
data for his books - no question about that.  Its not that he has
denied the Holocaust because he has not.  He merely says that Hitler
didn't order it and was not aware of it.  Irving says that it was
Himmler and those under Hitler that created this programme of
genocide.  He has freely admitted that he has seen documentation that
he believes are authentic that states the Einsatzgruppen of the SS-TV
accounted for the deaths of more than one million Jews in Russia.  He
says that the documentation on the camps is fake and that the photos
are of cholera victims etc. and that the testimony of the guards and
officers of the camps was beaten out of them.

I don't buy it.  My boss worked in a small town in Germany and while
he was there an old woman jumped off of her apartment building.  In
her apartment was a suicide letter stating that she could no longer
live with the things she did in the camps as a guard.  These camps
were not the vacation resorts that the deniers claim.  Those inmates
were not there by accident and they didn't die by accident.

What he says did NOT happen was the gassing of inmates in
concentration camps using carbon monoxide or hydrogen cyanide (HCN
>from Zyklon B).  This has been his position all along and he has even
offered a large reward for a document linking Hitler to the gassings.
This is why the British government has labeled Irving a "Hitler
apologist", a title he hates.

Some of Irving's followers are not nearly as clever and one offered a
similar reward for anyone who could prove there were gassings at
Auschwitz.  He got sued by a California man who was an Auschwitz
survivor and collected the money in a big court battle that I
believe was made into a TV movie.

Its funny you should mention _Hitler's War_ because in that book is
an excerpt from a message from Himmler that states something to the
effect that a particular transport of Russian prisoners was not to be
liquidated.  The group contained Stalin's son as I recall and Irving
used that as evidence that prisoners were not mistreated.  Irving
cited only the first couple of lines of the message and ignored the
rest which went on to specify that the transport was not to be
liquidated until Stalin's son was removed so he could be used as a
political pawn (the Germans didn't realize that Stalin hated his son).
This is an example of how Irving uses his research to prove his
theories.  This one backfired when someone took him to task on it and
looked it up for themselves.  This and countless other examples of
Irving's historical manipulations are in the archives of Ken McVay's
list server.

In the above example it struck many thinking people as odd that if it
was policy not to mistreat Russian prisoners as Irving suggests then
why did Himmler feel it was necessary to send a message to the effect
that this particular transport not be "liquidated".  Sometimes Irving
outsmarts himself.

Ciao, Bill Huber
[email-masked]

>       Akira Takiguchi  VP, ATSON, Inc.  (a subsidiary of the Asahi Shimbun)
>              CANAL TOWER  9-3 Nihonbashi-Koamicho Chuo-ku Tokyo 103  Japan
>    +81 3 3666 2881(voice) 2882(fax)  EMAIL TO <[email-masked]>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 12:15:26 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Reply to James Irwin

Date sent:      Mon, 15 Nov 1993 08:16:29 EST
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <[email-masked]>
From:           Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject:        Re: Reply to James Irwin
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <[email-masked]>

On Sun, 14 Nov 1993 14:37:12 CST Lou Coatney said:
>Yes, I'd say morality was pretty well out the window in WWII, and the Axis
>  were responsible for that.  Rape of Nanking, Bombing of Rotterdam,
>  Holocaust, etc., etc.
>
>Only deterrence prevailed, and that only because of demonstrated strength
>  and ruthlessness by the Allies -- finally.  The Axis only became
>  self-pitying and concerned with the morality of war once they were losing
>  and suffering themselves.

Actually, it didn't.  When Axis cities were going up in flames, they no
longer had the capacity to retaliate in kind, so talk of deterrence is moot.
I'm not sure what you mean by "self-pitying and concerned with the morality
of war", since at one level I don't think they *ever* were, and at a much lower
level, I think they *always* were.  My impression of the British aerial
campaign is that "Bomber" Harris just wanted revenge in spades & didn't
particularly care how he got it.

Ken,

I think "Bomber" Harris thought two things about the night bombing
of German cities. Firstly, that the bombing, at that time, was the
only direct way to get at the Germans on their own soil. Secondly,
he felt that any bombing of German territory would have some effect
on civilian morale and, above all, the economy and Germany's capacity
to make and wage war. I think he genuinely felt that the night
bombing of German cities was having an effect on the conduct of the
war, and, given British attitudes at the time, he felt that his
campaign fully reflected the Government's position and public
opinion.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 09:33:16 CST
From:    Lou Coatney <[email-masked]>
Subject: Deep Battle (game designs)

James,

     Have you seen the books by David Glantz and ? Simpkins on Soviet/
Tukhachevskii's deep battle theories and applications?

     David (a serving officer at Ft. Leavanworth) has authored a number of
other books on Soviet military theory and history -- most published in
Britain.  (Only the British seem to know a good, publishing-worthy book
when they see one.)  I consider him to now be more informative than even
John Erickson (and his protege, Simpkins).

     One of my embryonic Russian Front game designs/approaches may be the
ultimate operational simulation/analysis of WWII mobile warfare.  I am
finally finishing my Katyn thesis.  On the other hand, trying to relocate
may knock me/it out of (the game's) development for another couple of years.

     You definitely should see Glantz's book on (Soviet) deception --
"maskirovka."

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 12:32:49 CST
From:    Lou Coatney <[email-masked]>
Subject: Axis self-pity

Ken,

     Compare the German war art of the first half of the war against that of
the second half of the war, and I think you will see a remarkable difference.

     Even the Japanese art/coverage of the Kamikaze is tragic in tone.

     German wartime indignation at Allied bombing is distraught (as it is
ironic).

     The V-2 could have carried "Tapun" (sp?), instead of the limited,
conventional payload that it did.

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 12:36:06 CST
From:    Lou Coatney <[email-masked]>
Subject: World War II Studies Association

Is everyone here a member.  (We used to be called the American Committee on
  the History of the Second World War.)

A lot of good info.  (Of course, this net serves much the same purpose, for
  those who have access to it.)

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 14:43:50 EST
From:    Charles Reace <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Enforcing History

> > Should Christopher Columbus be honored as a gallant explorer or despised
> > as a genocidal invader? . . .

Actually I suspect most "native Americans" (which really of course means
they got here before the Europeans) probably would vote for genocidal
invader.  I might vote for one of the luckiest screw-ups in history.

Anyway, as far as "enforcing history" goes, I think there is a fine line
which the German government felt was crossed between expressing opinions
and inciting others to actions which ifringe upon the rights of others.
If Irving and others wish to express questions as to the validity of com-
monly accepted historical 'fact' (quotes to emphasize the question of how
does anybody really know anything), I feel they have the right to express
those questions.  If they express deliberate falsehoods, and are proven
to have done so, there are libel, slander, and other laws which may cover
this.  If their intent is to incite violence, harassment, or other in-
fringements of human rights on other citizens of this world, as so judged
by the appropriate jury or judicial body; then they should be appropriately
prohibited from such instigation.

Obviously, there is a lot of subjectivity in any such evaluation; and I
for one would always vote for erring on the side of freedom of speech
wherever the choice is not clear.

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <[email-masked]>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 11:53:52 -0800
From:    Julian E Gomez <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: RAF vs USAAF heavy bombardment

>...
>were very unsteady bombing platforms. On the other hand, B-17s carried too few
>bombs for area raids, and had no flame dampers to avoid easy detection at
>...

What is a flame damper?

"I was a precocious child and obviously destined to be a scientist."

        Dr. Julian "a tribble took it" Gomez
        Apple Computer, Inc.  408/862-1289 or 996-1010
        [email-masked]  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 15:40:36 EST
From:    Chuck McCormick <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Want:A-Bomb

>I really don't know if this subjest has been discussed before or not, but
>what I wanna know is that what was the major purpose of the Americans to
>invent the A-bomb? Was the reason to use it on Germany? and did they know
>anything about the effects of radiation?
>Cagan
>[email-masked]
>CCGURER@OWUCOMN

I am no A-bomb expert but I'll let 'er rip anyway.  The B-29 crews who were
trained in dropping the bomb practiced and trained on German cities, maps and
models.  They expected the bomb to be ready before Germany was out of the war.
However, once the war in Europe was over it made 'sense' to the military
planners, political leaders, and most of the scientists to drop it on Japan.
Why were two bombs dropped four days apart?  My theory is that it was because
there were two different teams producing two different designs.  They wanted to
test both designs and *perhaps* for reasons of professional jealously they had
to use both designs.  The ironic thing is that if they had dropped two on
Germany the Nazis probably would have fought on.  That's the sort of mind-set
that Hitler had; if he was going to lose he would take everyone with him.

Scientists knew something about radiation but A LOT LESS than they do today.
There were lots of experiments done after the war on live humans to see what
effects radiation had.

Chuck
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 16:03:10 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: RAF vs USAAF heavy bombardment

>
>
>Interesting.  But wouldn't any size bomb have the same problem (ie, premature
>explosion from point of view of the actual target)?  Were payloads directed
>against factories equipped with delayed impact fuses?  Did the Allies make
>the same use of deliberately unexploded bombs that the Germans did against
>Britain?  I should think that would be particularly effective against oil
>targets:  you get the disruption of the raid itself, then the added delay
>with dealing with unexploded ordnance before you can try to repair things.
>

 Ken,
     The problem with delayed action bombs was that they tended to bury
themselves without doing much damage.  The British used them a lot in bombing
cities, they were supposed to discourage firefighting efforts and the like.
The Americans did not.  The advantage of the big British bombs was their
massive blast effect, it didn't matter if they exploded early because they
would cause so much collateral damage.

                                                  Con Crane

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 16:08:44 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: David Irving

Wasn't David Irving the main expert sucked into believing the Hitler diaries?
He also had to recant the casualty figures in his book on Dresden, admitting
that he inflated them. I don't think many in the historical profession think
very highly of him anymore.
                                  LTC Con Crane
                                        USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 16:41:21 EST
From:    Charles <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Want:A-Bomb

        Cagan Gurer <[email-masked]> writes:

        I really don't know if this subjest has been discussed before
        or not, but what I wanna know is that what was the major
        purpose of the Americans to invent the A-bomb? Was the reason
        to use it on Germany? and did they know anything about the
        effects of radiation?

Short answers:
        Yes, it has been discussed before.
        The purpose of developing the bomb was to use it, and use
                it before it was used on the Allies.
        The original target (and reason) for developing the
                atomic bomb was Germany (the fear was that the
                Germans, who were known to be well-along in nuclear
                physics, would develop their own bomb and use it.)
        Radiation was a known hazard, but the theoreticans working
                on the problem believed that its effective 'range'
                was less that blast-effects.  They were wrong (and
                quite surprised to find it out.)

Longer answers:

   The major mover-n-shaker in the starting up of the US-bomb program
was a Hungarian physicist named Leo Szilard.  Quite an amazing fellow
he was - brilliant, eccentric, funny, arrogant -- if you get a chance
to read up on him, do so.  It was he who convinced Einstein and others
to send the famous letter to Roosevelt that kicked off the program.
(Of course, Roosevelt was clever enough to see its value and come up
with the billions to see it through -- Szilard worked on the program
in Chicago, btw.)

   The Germans had been early pioneers in nuclear physics; Szilard and
others were worried that given the straightforwardness of making
atomic bombs (that is, once you know how it works, all you need is a
lot of money, resources, and smart people - things the Germans had -
and you'll get a bomb) that they would.  As it turned out, the Germans
played it very stupidly, first by turning out all their Jewish
scientists, and in denigrating such "jewish science" as nuclear
physics, and then by allocating relatively pitiful amounts of effort
into their program.  (The Japanese had a nuclear-weapons research
program too, it turns out, but they allocated even less to theirs.)
While the US paid the prices required to manufacture the weapons-grade
uranium and plutonium and engineer the bomb itself, their enemies were
never really in the race.  (This was not known until very late in the
game, of course.)

   Anyway, while the scientists involved pretty much saw themselves as
making their bomb to use on Germany, higher-ups in the government
didn't see any real difference between the two Axis enemies.  So when
Germany surrendered before the program completed, the bomb got used on
Japan.  (Its pretty clear that no one in the program or policymakers
quite understood the bomb as "the bomb" - as we see it today -- it was
just another weapon; they saw it as just a very very good bomb.)

   While there were some in the picture who wanted to not use the bomb
"in anger", the idea that the Japanese would be cowed into
surrendering by a demonstration (after enduring firebomb attacks that
were actually worse than the atomic attacks) is a tad naive, really.
The idea that the US would not use a weapon for 'moral reasons' (not
that I much care for Bomber Harris, but as he puts it: "show me one
moral thing in war") while its sons are being killed day by day in the
war is naive too.

   As far as radiation goes, the scientists involved certainly knew
about radiation effects (without radiation effects, how could there be
an explosion?), but the best guess at the time was succinctly put that
people who would be hurt by the radiation would be already dead from a
flying brick (i.e. from direct blast effects.)

Hope this helps,

Charles

PS - A good book to start you off:

   AUTHOR Wyden, Peter.
    TITLE Day one : before Hiroshima and after / Peter Wyden.
PUBLISHER New York : Simon and Schuster, c1984.

(available in paperback)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 15:42:57 -0600
From:    Sandra Torres <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Want:A-Bomb

> I really don't know if this subjest has been discussed before or not, but
> what I wanna know is that what was the major purpose of the Americans to
> invent the A-bomb? Was the reason to use it on Germany? and did they know
> anything about the effects of radiation?
> Cagan
> [email-masked]
> CCGURER@OWUCOMN
>
>From what little I know, the main reason for developing the a-bomb was to
do it before the Germans did.  There were rumors that the Germans were working
on the a-bomb, but at the time Germany was winning the war and Hitler didn't
think they needed it.  By the end of the war, when Germany really needed an
ace like the a-bomb, it was too late, and they didn't have the time,
money, or scientists to do it.

When the U.S. was first approached by Eistein and others, no one thought too
highly of atomic warfare.  The government sat on the proposal for a year
or so before anything was done, but when they did pick it up, they worked
continuously up to the very last minute.

As to how much they knew about radiation, there's a documentary about the
atomic age called _Atomic Cafe_.  In the briefing sessions for soldiers
viewing the test explosions, they were told that the primary thing to be
concerned about during an atomic explosion was heat.  Radiation was treated
as a secondary after effect.

_Ivitation to an Inquest_ is a book dealing mainly with the Rosenberg/Sobell
spy ring, but the beginning of the book has a brief but very informative
section on the development of the atomic bomb.

Sandra Torres  ([email-masked])
History Dept.
SMU Dallas, TX

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 16:20:17 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Want:A-Bomb

Date sent:      Mon, 15 Nov 1993 11:34:43 -0400
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <[email-masked]>
From:           Cagan Gurer <[email-masked]>
Subject:        Want:A-Bomb
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <[email-masked]>

I really don't know if this subjest has been discussed before or not, but
what I wanna know is that what was the major purpose of the Americans to
invent the A-bomb? Was the reason to use it on Germany? and did they know
anything about the effects of radiation?
Cagan
[email-masked]
CCGURER@OWUCOMN

Cagan,

Yes. This country was very much involved in the development of atomic
power before our entry into WWII. It was Albert Einstein who wrote a
letter to the President urging this country to investigate the
potential use of atomic power for use in weapons.

The effects of radiation were well known even at that time. What
wasn't certain was that even if the A-bomb were ever built, there was
no guarantee it would work, nor just what the effects long or short
term effects would be.

If memory serves me correctly, if the bomb had been developed soon
enough, it would have been used against Germany. It was also well-
known through defections and the like, that the Germans were also
pursuing their own experiments, but theirs took the path of deuterium
oxide or "heavy water" development which would have taken longer, but
would have eventually arrived at the same result as our A-bomb
development using uranium as the base.

The Japanese, on the other hand, had only dabbled in this research,
although they were aware of the potentialities of such a weapon but,
being of their mindset, they felt that since it was so expensive to
pursue and develop on their part, the US and the other allies would
have faced the same obstacles, and opted to remain with conventional
weapons. It was only much later in the war that the Japanese began to
investigate development of an atomic bomb for their purposes.

David Irving published a book in the early 60's, I think, that deals
exclusively with the German atomic bomb project. It is called "The
German Atomic Bomb". There was also another book published later on
that is called "The Alsos Mission" written by an American colonel who
was commissioned by Eisenhower's HQ to locate all fissionable
materials associated with this project. The bulk of these materials
were located and seized near Karlsruhe.

Hope this helps.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 14:22:53 -0800
From:    Julian E Gomez <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: David Irving

>Some of Irving's followers are not nearly as clever and one offered a
>similar reward for anyone who could prove there were gassings at
>Auschwitz.  He got sued by a California man who was an Auschwitz
>survivor and collected the money in a big court battle that I
>believe was made into a TV movie.

The movie was called "Never Again" and starred Leonard Nimoy. It was on the
USA network a few years ago.

"I was a precocious child and obviously destined to be a scientist."

        Dr. Julian "a tribble took it" Gomez
        Apple Computer, Inc.  408/862-1289 or 996-1010
        [email-masked]  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 17:56:27 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: World War II Studies Association

>
> Is everyone here a member.  (We used to be called the American Committee on
>   the History of the Second World War.)

So tell us about it!

> A lot of good info.  (Of course, this net serves much the same purpose, for
>   those who have access to it.)

Can't have too many sources (just too much to read :-(.

> Lou Coatney, WIU

Larry J

[email-masked]; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 16 Nov 1993 00:04:56 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Want:A-Bomb

On Mon, 15 Nov 1993, Cagan Gurer wrote:

> I really don't know if this subjest has been discussed before or not, but
> what I wanna know is that what was the major purpose of the Americans to
> invent the A-bomb? Was the reason to use it on Germany?

Nobody ever thought much about its use; it all seemed logical. The reasoning
was (a) the US could not afford to have later than any other nation,
especially if this was to be Germany; (2) there was a war going on and any
bomb that could hit the enemy was a good bomb.

'Invent' isn't the word. Once the fission of Uranium was known, the
possibility of building a bomb was known to most nuclear physicists.
Interestingly, the people who interested the USA in building one were
mainly emigrated Europeans, who knew what nazism was like: Szilard,
Teller, Wigner, Fermi, Einstein...

> and did they know
> anything about the effects of radiation?

Of course. Not so much as is known now, but there was a quite interesting
study by Oppenheimer on the subject of radioactive poisoning -- dusting
Germany with radioactive material. His conclusion was that it wasn't
worth the effort, unless could you kill a large enough number of people.
the number was something like 100,000 I think.

Emmanuel.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 22:51:45 EST
From:    "[email-masked]" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Gen: Re: Thanks for your "Welcome Aboard"

  X-To:  [email-masked] (William Huber-SCDR)[email-masked]

  The network control indicated they could not accept your address.Therefore,
  I am using List WWII-L and request that this reply be relayed to you.Also,
  I am glad that you received my third attempt to post Re:MA in Military
  History, etc.
  I am glad that we finally made an E-Mail connection. Hope to hear from you
  soon. Give Larry my best regards from a USN (Ret) shipmate. I would be
  happy to discuss with him any type of "sea-going" yarn, taken from my
  twenty-four years of sea duty.
  I wish you the very best in your PhD program. If I can assist you in your
  research, please contact me. --I have sections of the book,History of the
  German General Staff, 1657-1945, by Walter Goerlitz, 1959.
  Carl Wernke       [email-masked]

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 14 Nov 1993 to 15 Nov 1993
*************************************************