Subject: WWII-L Digest - 21 Nov 1993 to 22 Nov 1993

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1993 00:00:09 -0500

There are 8 messages totalling 307 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Uniform Patterns
  2. Goebbels Speech
  3. Nazi program
  4. USAAF 22 NOV 43
  5. Humor: A study guide to History
  6. Depository in Poland for Katyn thesis (?)
  7. Want:A-Bomb
  8. Bombs,Books and reflections

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Date:    Mon, 22 Nov 1993 01:55:20 CDT
From:    "Denis Ouellette, Indiana Univ" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Uniform Patterns

Does anyone know of a company that carries sewing patterns of WWII era
uniforms? I have read evry column inch of the WW-II and military history
magazines without success. Perhaps those who participate in reenactments
or know someone who does could be of help.
Please reply by private email to
[email-masked]

Thanks
Denis Ouellette

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Date:    Mon, 22 Nov 1993 10:31:48 +0100
From:    Richard Cummings <[email-masked]>
Subject: Goebbels Speech

Reuter's news agency carried a very interesting report this past
weekend.  For those who did not see it, here are some extracts:

  LONDON, Nov 21 (Reuter) - Hitler's propaganda chief Joseph
Goebbels publicly referred to the extermination of German Jews
in a speech given in 1942, a Jewish investigative group said on
Sunday.

 In the speech, delivered to 60 German newspaper editors in
Berlin on September 23, 1942, and passed to Britain's Foreign
Office in May the following year by Polish resistance, Goebbels
refers to the killing of Jews.

    Walter Laqueur of the Centre for Strategic and
International Studies in Washington told the Observer newspaper
this was the first time one of the key members of the Nazi
leadership spoke publicly about the Holocaust.

--==oo00oo==--
[email-masked]
RFE/RL Inc
Munich,Germany

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Date:    Mon, 22 Nov 1993 10:03:19 GMT,BST
From:    John Gillies <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Nazi program

Peter Beal asks:

> Interesting post.  Could you (or anybody) provide more details on the
> source, i.e. "WWII Through German Eyes", such as author, publisher, etc.
>
> Thanks

My copy is -

LUCAS, James (1987) "World war II Through German Eyes"
Arma & Armour Press Ltd.
Artillery House
Artillery Row
London  SW1P 1RT

ISBN 0-85368-831-1

It also says "Distributed in USA by Sterling Publishing Co. Inc.
            2 Park Avenue, New York  NY 10016"

Hope this is helpful.
John

John Gillies
Department of Psychology
Adam Smith Building
University of Glasgow
Glasgow  G12 8RT                      Tel: (0)41 339 8855 ext.5351
Scotland
                         [email-masked]

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Date:    Mon, 22 Nov 1993 07:25:32 -0500
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: USAAF 22 NOV 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
MONDAY, 22 NOVEMBER 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  Baltimore, Martin (RAF)
  F4U, Vought Corsair (USN)
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-70, Douglas
  Ventura, Lockheed (RNZAF)

CENTRAL PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Seventh Air Force): 11 B-24's from
Canton Island in the Phoenix Islands bomb Mille Atoll in the Caroline Islands.
The B-24's claim 2 interceptors shot down.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 12 P-40's strafe river traffic from
Hofuh to Changte, and 16 attack numerous small troop boats on Tungting Lake,
W of Changteh.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS: President Franklin D Roosevelt, Prime
Minister Winston S Churchill and Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek confer in
Cairo, Egypt. Talks last until 26 Nov and concern Operation OVERLORD (the
overall plan for the invasion of W Europe), the possibility of expanding
operations in the Mediterranean Theater of Operations, and future operations
against Japan. It is decided to make an amphibious landing and offensive in
Burma (Operation CHAMPION) and to base B-29's in the China-Burma-India
Theater (Operation TWILIGHT).
  The 90th Photographic Wing (Reconnaissance) is activated at La Marsa,
Tunisia. The group will provide photographic reconnaissance for both the
Twelfth and Fifteenth Air Forces until the wing's groups were reassigned on
1 Oct 44.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Italy, B-26's, escorted by
P-38's, hit the railroad center at Foligno, scoring numerous hits; others
attack a bridge at Ciciana.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, 100+ XII Air Support
Command P-40's, B-25's, and Royal Air Force (RAF) Baltimores, attack
strongpoints in the Lanciano-Fossacesia area, concentrating on gun positions;
P-40's also hit roads and railways at Fabriano, the towns of Viticuso and
Vallerotonda, and as far N as Urbino; A-36's hit chemical works, harbor and
railroad yards at Civitavecchia and bomb the village of San Vittore del Lazio.
  The 99th Fighter Squadron, XII Air Support Command, transfers from Foggia
to Madna, Italy with P-40's.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): On Bougainville
Island in the Solomon Islands, P-40's in a battle with 30-40 fighters over
Empress Augusta Bay, claim 5 fighters shot down; P-38's strafe barges and
shore targets at Chabai.  20+ B-25's, along with 5 Royal New Zealand Air Force
(RNZAF) Ventura's, 8 P-38's and 8 US Navy F4U's, attack the airfield on Buka
Island scoring hits on the airstrip and taxiways.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): 22 B-25's and
A-20's attack villages around Sattelberg, New Guinea. 100+ B-25's and B-24's
bomb Gasmata Island south of New Britain Island and Cape Gloucester on New
Britain Island. B-24's on armed reconnaissance score hits on freighter near
Kavieng, New Ireland Island and a tanker and barge in the Bismarck Sea.
  The 17th Reconnaissance Squadron (Bombardment) and 82d Reconnaissance
Squadron (Fighter), 71st Reconnaissance Group, transfer from Milne Bay to
Dobodura, New Guinea with B-25's and P-39's respectfully. They will fly
their first mission on 28 Jan 44 and 27 Nov 43 respectively.
  The 418th Night Fighter Squadron, V Fighter Command, transfers from Milne
Bay to Dobodura, New Guinea with P-38's and P-70's.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
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Date:    Mon, 22 Nov 1993 08:14:04 EST
From:    Joanne <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Humor: A study guide to History

Thanks Mike!  I needed that on a Monday morning.  I'd seen parts of it
before, but never got the whole story til now!

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Date:    Mon, 22 Nov 1993 11:16:34 -0600
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Depository in Poland for Katyn thesis (?)

Irek,

     I am finally completing my thesis on the Katyn Massacre.  I have
been told there is a research center/library in Poland devoted to
Katyn.  Do you know what its address is?  Would there be any better
place to deposit a copy?

     2 copies will be going to Moscow.

Lou Coatney, Western Illinois University, Macomb, Illinois, USA

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Date:    Mon, 22 Nov 1993 13:35:12 EST
From:    Charles <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Want:A-Bomb

     Chuck McCormick <[email-masked]> writes:

     Why were two bombs dropped four days apart?  My theory is that it
     was because there were two different teams producing two different
     designs.  They wanted to test both designs and *perhaps* for reasons
     of professional jealously they had to use both designs.

... the teams that made the bombs didn't really have a say in their
use or not.  The "gun-bomb" group and the "implosion-bomb" group were
not really 'competing' in the sense that, for instance, aircraft
manufacturers compete to make the most salable airplane.  (The
implosion bomb was tested beforehand; the gun bomb not -- everybody
knew the gun-bomb would work; but the implosion bomb was not a
'knocked' design, including by its designers.)

   The reason I've heard most often is that the US wanted the Japanese
to think the US had enough bombs to drop one every four days
indefinately.  (The "rain of ruin from the air" promised by Truman and
others.)  If the Japanese thought they would lose a city every few
days, this thesis ran, they'd give up more quickly.  (Of course, the
Japanese had been losing large chunks of cities for months from
firebomb raids, and hadn't given up...  it was when the last thread of
hope for Japan -- brokering a deal via the Russians -- fell through
that they seriously turned to surrender as an option.)

     The ironic thing is that if they had dropped two on Germany the
     Nazis probably would have fought on.  That's the sort of mind-set
     that Hitler had; if he was going to lose he would take everyone
     with him.

... probably true; neither the Germans nor the Japanese (nor the
British, for that matter) seemed to worry unduly about massive
civilian losses.  On the other hand, the Allies would have not had the
compunction about dropping atomic bombs on Berlin that they did on
Tokyo (killing Hitler was just fine -- killing the Emperor was not);
its possible that an atomic attack on Berlin might have actually
killed Hitler, and then, as they say, its a whole new ballgame.

Charles

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Date:    Tue, 23 Nov 1993 14:02:44 +1100
From:    John Foster <[email-masked]>
Subject: Bombs,Books and reflections

Thank you to all the participants on this list.I have started reading some
of the books reccomended at various times and find I am learning a lot about
that which I only knew a little.Often I peruse the shelves around the book I
am looking for and have come up with some real gems.
     When I saw the Queen Mom unveiling a statue to "bomber" Harris and there
was objections from Germany I thought " in your ear" to this protest but since
reading more from the German side I have changed my formerly strong and long
held stance on the subject.A particular book I would reccomend to the list is
"My Past is Myself by Christabel Bielenberg (sp?).It is written by a British
women who lived in the Reich during the war and whose husband was arrested
after the Hitler plot backfired.Her husbands best friend was one of the main
civilian conspirators and one of the first executed.
      We see a slice of the German people waiting for the army to act to rid
them of a tyrant and then on its failure to do so after the oath swearing we
see a people slowly enslaved and terrorised without a way to reverse the flow
of the tide going against them. In an enviroment of fear where their every
move is watched reported on and phone bugged and even casual conversation has
to be relearned due to spies and informers and finding enough to eat a daily
occupation comes the terror of the bombers and to this ardent British women
comes a loathing of her own country as she sees the old and the young and
even the very opponents of the regime being cut down as though they were to
blame and somehow had the ability to change the order of things while those
in power lived on and carried on with their criminal conduct.
      Its a good read for those interested and Christabel's thoughts at this
time have an alarming relevance in our time whun one thinks of the Gulf war.
Who suffered the most and continues to suffer as a result.Is it Hussein and his
henchman and relatives or the ordinary people who are forced to do what their
told and fight whether they like it or not?
     On a side note I read where Hitler was distraught at the end of WWI
thinking all I suffered and gave up in the end was for nothing.Was WWII the
scheme of a madman to get even with the victorious allies and punish a Germany
who betrayed him at the same time.His action at the end would seem to suggest
it .Any takers?
      Keep up the good discussion.
                                                        Regards
                                                         John
"I felt betrayed when I finally learnt that Sargeant Saunders wasnt responsible
for winning WWII but I feel much better now that I found out from reading this
list that it was really Lou's uncle Joe"

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End of WWII-L Digest - 21 Nov 1993 to 22 Nov 1993
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