Subject: WWII-L Digest - 4 Nov 1993 to 5 Nov 1993

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1993 00:00:38 -0500

There are 25 messages totalling 970 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. 3 Shermans? (2)
  2. mystery (8)
  3. Italian surrender -- longterm benefits!!
  4. USAAF 5 NOV 43 (2)
  5. INF,REF: German plans for attacking Sweden
  6. Allied Air Campaign in Europe (fwd) (2)
  7. Patton One-Upping Monty (2)
  8. USAAF 5 NOV 1943 (2)
  9. Guy Sajer
 10. American crewmen last seen with Soviets ... and Katyn
 11. WANT: Info on movie...
 12. V-1 Movie (2)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Nov 1993 16:03:27 +1100
From:    Mick Fauchon <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 3 Shermans?

        Lou,

                Don't you know Joe better than that by now? We do .....

                                                        Cheers,

                                                        Mick.

--                                                                          --
Mick Fauchon                          | Internet: [email-masked]
Reference Section, Auchmuty Library   | Ph  (intl+61+49) 215861
University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA    | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833

On Thu, 4 Nov 1993, Lou Coatney wrote:

> Joe,
>      What was the quote from?
> Lou

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Nov 1993 11:32:48 +0200
From:    Chris Scogings <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: mystery

>    "During the closing days of World War II, my father, Stanislas
>("Stanley") Nowak, met in Poland some Americans from a B-29 crew just
>after they parachuted from their crippled bomber....

B-29s flew over Poland?

Chris
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Scogings                      Voice: (27) 331 955645
Computer Science Dept                 Fax: (27) 331 955599
University of Natal
Pietermaritzburg                   E-Mail:[email-masked]
----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 4 Nov 1993 23:16:29 CST
From:    Lou Coatney <[email-masked]>
Subject: Italian surrender -- longterm benefits!!

Gina Lollabrigida?  Sophia Loren?  Virna Lisi?  Elsa Martinelli?  and many
  beautiful others(?)

Obviously, it is much better to have Italians as friends and allies, than
  enemies.

Lou Coatney, :-)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Nov 1993 07:13:36 -0500
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: USAAF 5 NOV 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
FRIDAY, 5 NOVEMBER 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  Beaufighter, Bristol
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-9, Boeing Flying Fortress
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ZONE OF INTERIOR: The 19th Photographic Charting Squadron, 1st Photographic
Charting Group, based at Bradley Field, Connecticut, sends a detachment to
Mexico City, Mexico with F-9's to photo-map Mexico.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): The 459th Fighter Squadron, 80th Fighter
Group, transfers from Karachi to Kurmitola, India with P-38's. They will fly
their first mission on 14 Nov.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ANTISUBMARINE OPERATIONS: B-25's of the 1st Composite Squadron and USN
land-based aircraft based on Ascension Island sink U-848 in the S Atlantic at
10-09S 18-00W.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): VIII Bomber Command Mission 121.
Two targets in Germany are hit with the loss of 8 B-17's and 3 B-24's.
  1. 323 of 374 B-17's and 9 of 11 B-17 pathfinders hit the marshalling yard
and oil plants at Gelsenkirchen, Germany at 1313-1350 hours; they claim 6-1-4
Luftwaffe aircraft; 8 B-17's are lost, 3 damaged beyond repair and 223
damaged. Casualties are 4 KIA, 35 WIA and 84 MIA. The B-17's are escorted by
47 P-38's and 336 P-47's; they claim 18-6-3 Luftwaffe aircraft; 4 P-47's are
lost and 1 is damaged beyond repair; casualties are 4 MIA.
  2. 104 of 118 B-24's hit the marshaling yard at Munster at 1349-1358 hours;
they claim 21-3-7 Luftwaffe aircraft; 3 B-24's are lost, 1 is damaged beyond
repair and 43 damaged; casualties are 7 KIA, 22 WIA and 31 MIA.
  3. VIII Bomber Command Mission 122: 5 B-17's drop 1,004,000 leaflets over
Paris, Amiens, Rouen and Caen at 1917-2005 hours; no losses or casualties.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): An Eighth Air Force training officer
arrives to assist HQ IX Fighter Command in setting up a comprehensive training
system for fighter pilots. The training is based on the Eighth Air Force
system; the Eighth Air Force and Royal Air Force (RAF) cooperate with the
Ninth in instituting this program. 150+ B-26's bomb construction works at
Mimoyecques, France; poor visibility causes one group to bomb the area SW of
the primary targets; bad weather causes numerous aborts.
  The 356th Fighter Squadron, 354th Fighter Group, arrives at Greenham Common,
England from the U.S. with P-51's. The squadron will fly it's first mission on
1 Dec.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 3 B-24's on a low-level raid
bomb the Falconara-Marittima railroad and highway bridges in Italy.
  The 432d Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 17th Bombardment Group (Medium),
transfers from Djedeida, Tunisia to Villacidro, Sardinia with B-26's.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): XII Air Support Command B-25's,
escorted by Fifteenth Air Force P-38's, hit the Berat-Kucove Airfield in
Albania. In Italy, the Northwest African Tactical Bomber Force (NATBF) bombs
roads E of Atina and N of Rome, and hits vehicles moving S from Pescara; XII
Air Support Command and RAF Desert Air Force (DAF) fighters and fighter-bombers
attack motor transport N of Vasto, bridges and roads W of Isernia, Cassino, and
Atena Lucana, the town of Castrocielo, and vessels off Split, Yugoslavia.
  HQ 17th Bombardment Group (Medium) transfers from Djedeida, Tunisia to
Sardinia.
  HQ 350th Fighter Group transfers from Rerhaiak Algeria to Sardinia.
  The 81st and 83d Bombardment Squadrons (Medium), 12th Bombardment Group
(Medium), transfer from Gerbini, Sicily to Foggia, Italy with B-25's.
  The 415th Night Fighter Squadron, XII Air Support Command, transfers from
Cassibile to Cantania, Sicily with Beaufighters.
  The 523d Fighter-Bomber Squadron, 27th Fighter-Bomber Group, transfers from
Capaccio to Gaudo Airfield, Italy with A-36's.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, 6 B-25's hit a bivouac area at Kieta on Bougainville Island and sink
at least 6 barges between Kieta and Banin Harbor. Allied fighters from the
Munda, New Georgia area cover a carrier strike which causes considerable damage
to shipping in the harbor at Rabaul, New Britain Island in the Bismarck
Archipelago.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): 90+ B-24's and
fighters attack the wharf areas of Rabaul on New Britain Island while Japanese
airplanes from surrounding airfields search for the carrier force that hit
Rabaul earlier in the day. In New Guinea, B-26's and P-39's hit Bogadjim Road,
B-25's pound positions NW of Dumpu, and P-39's bomb and strafe the Madang
area; P-47's over Wewak encounter a force of fighters and claim about 20 shot
down.
  The 67th Troop Carrier Squadron, 433d Troop Carrier Group, transfers from
Port Moresby to Nadzab, New Guinea with C-47's.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Nov 1993 06:46:28 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF,REF: German plans for attacking Sweden

Date sent:      Thu, 4 Nov 1993 23:26:54 +0100
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <[email-masked]>
From:           Asad Rustum <[email-masked]>
Subject:        INF,REF: German plans for attacking Sweden
Originally to:  [email-masked]
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <[email-masked]>

Hello,

I posted this as a question a few days ago, but I'm not sure whether
it came through or not, so I'll try again.

Recently on the news I heard that German plans to invade Sweden during
WW2 were discovered in Germany. I'd like to know how to get hold of
this information and anything that has to do with the plans.  To make
things easy for you, what units were supposed to have attaked,
preferably with their composition, where were they planned to attack
and what date & time were they supposed to have attacked should the
attack ever have been launched.

If these plans are available, could I get them in Swedish, English or
French or do they only come in one flavour - German?

Any help is much appreciated.

Many thanks,

+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
 Asad Rustum                          'Oh Lord won't you buy me
 [email-masked]                   a Mercedes Benz...'
 [email-masked]                Janis Joplin

Asad,

Did you receive my posting a couple of days ago? I am still
researching your question.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Nov 1993 06:51:01 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: mystery

Date sent:      Thu, 4 Nov 1993 16:47:09 EST-500
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <[email-masked]>
From:           Carol Owen Bell <[email-masked]>
Subject:        mystery
Originally to:  [email-masked]
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <[email-masked]>

    I have a mystery I would like the list members' help solving. The
story came from a Polish friend of mine who wants help trying to
locate some U.S. soliders her father, a member of the Polish
underground, met towards the end of the war. The story follows.

    "During the closing days of World War II, my father, Stanislas
("Stanley") Nowak, met in Poland some Americans from a B-29 crew just
after they parachuted from their crippled bomber. The airmen wanted
help getting to Lublin, to Charkow in the Soviet Union or to Turkey.
My father sheltered the men, befriending them up until the time they
linked up with the Soviet military a month later.
    "At that time my father was a medical student and a member of the
Polish Underground Army (A.K.) which was cooperating with the Polish
government in exile in London. My father's first meeting with the
American soliders was at Turek, near Kalisz. He drove them to Lodz,
where they stayed for a month. One of the men, a Sergeant Warren, was
injured and died at a hospital in Lodz.
    "The time would have been February, March of April, 1945, just
after the Red Army occupied this area on its way to Berlin. Because
my father didn't trust the Russians, he warned the Americans to avoid
them. However, after leaving the hospital, the airmen did make
contact with the Russian Chief of Aviation at the Army Aviation
Headquarters in Lodz on Pomorska Street. That was the last my father
heard or saw of the American soliders.
    "To this day my father carries their names, as he wrote them down
in 1945:
    1. Albert, Richard -- Lieutenant; crew chief
    2. Flax, Herman -- Sergeant; 721 S. Jackson, Denver, Colorado
    3. Hale, Glenn K. -- 7951 Yale Ave., Chicago
    4. Laubenstein, ?? -- Sergeant
    5. Lewn, John
    6. Warren, ?? --
    "My father has always wondered why his American friends wished to
go to Russia and if any of them are alive today. I would like to help
my father locate them, to find out if any of the men are still living
and where they are. Both my father and I would appreciate any leads
that might help our search.
    "Elizabeth Nowak-Pyda"

    Now my question is, do any of you know where to start. I don't
have any reason to doubt the veracity of the story.

Carol Bell
University of Tennessee-Knoxville
Office of University Relations
News Center

Carol,

It sounds to me as though the Americans were wanting to go to Russia,
because that may have been their destination as part of the shuttle
bombing program that was going on at that time. That is the only
reason that comes to mind at this time.

There is a book in print that tells one how to get locate anyone who
had served at any time in the armed forces. I will get that info for
you.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Nov 1993 06:53:23 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: mystery

Carol,

One other comment. I doubt that it was a B-29 that flew over Poland
at that time. More than likely, it was a B-24 or B-17. B-29's were
employed against Japan, and, to my knowledge, no B-29 that flew
via Europe, i.e. England, to reach China was shot down over Poland.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Nov 1993 08:03:34 EST
From:    "Denis Ouellette, Indiana Univ" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Allied Air Campaign in Europe (fwd)

On the effectiveness of strategic bombing-
Yes, partly my mistake, I did forget to mention the role of the A bomb
in postwar defence planning.  However, I still think the role of
conventional stategic bombing in Europe was over played

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Nov 1993 09:05:42 EST
From:    "Denis Ouellette, Indiana Univ" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: mystery

It would be wonderful to find out about these men.  Now the part I wonder
about is 1. where B-29s flying over Europe in March, 1945 and 2. What
where they doing over Poland.
Also, I recall recent reports, based on information released from the new
Russian government, that some US airman were held from WWII for years
and I assume died there.  Does anyone recall the details?  Where these
man who had crashed on missions of Eastern Europe or those that crashed
on missions to Japan, having tried to fly to Russia or Soviet held territory?

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Nov 1993 09:24:15 EST-500
From:    Carol Owen Bell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: mystery

> From: "Denis Ouellette, Indiana Univ" <[email-masked]>
>
> It would be wonderful to find out about these men.  Now the part I wonder
> about is 1. where B-29s flying over Europe in March, 1945 and 2. What
> where they doing over Poland.
> Also, I recall recent reports, based on information released from the new
> Russian government, that some US airman were held from WWII for years
> and I assume died there.  Does anyone recall the details?  Where these
> man who had crashed on missions of Eastern Europe or those that crashed
> on missions to Japan, having tried to fly to Russia or Soviet held territory?
>
    I also questioned a B-29 being over Poland. Of course, in 50
years that part could be wrong. Her father did not see the plane but
saw the men as they were parachuting down and went to their aid.
    Was Germany still being bombed at this point? Could they have
veered over Poland trying to ditch a shot-up plane?
    I couldn't understand why they would not want help getting back to
the American sector in Germany?
    Could these guys have been OSS?

Carol Bell
University of Tennessee-Knoxville
Office of University Relations
News Center

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Nov 1993 09:41:46 EST
From:    Charles Reace <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Patton One-Upping Monty

Regarding British drop zones at Arnhem:

While this thread (including my earlier entry) has bemoaned the British
drop zone, the fact is that they did capture the north approaches to the
bridge, and held it for much longer than the planned worst case of 4 days.

It does seem possible that they could have dropped some forces closer to
the bridge possibly, it would appear that the real problem with the plan
was in the Garden end.  Some combination of over-estimating XXX Corps'
abilitity to attack up the "one road" and an underestimation of the German
opposistion apparently gave Monty et al an unrealistic schedule.

I've read about the intelligence foul-ups regarding the allies' lack of
knowledge about the presence of the re-fitting panzer divisions near
Arnhem and the escape of the 15th Army.  But, I was wondering what was
the intelligence concerning the Germans in the XXX Corps breakout area?
Did they realize they were up against some pretty good Falschirmjaeger
divisions? (Please excuse my attempt at German spelling.)

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <[email-masked]>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Nov 1993 09:21:04 -0400
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: USAAF 5 NOV 1943

One of the B-17Fs shot down on the 5 Nov mission to Gelsenkirchen
was "Butcher Boy", assigned to the 388th BG, piloted by Lt. Bramwell.
The aircraft was hit by flak over the target and could not keep up
with the rest of the formation, and was finally shot down by a FW 190A
over Belgium, with eight of the ten men aboard parachuting safely.
Five of the eight came down on one side of a river and were soon
captured by the Germans, while the other three landed on the other
side of the river and were able to evade capture.

One of the three evaders was George Watt, the right waist gunner.
In 1989, he wrote a book entitled "The Comet Connection", which details
his escape.  The Comet Connection was a Belgian underground association
which rescued downed Allied airmen.   Watt was initially hidden by a
Belgian farmer, then accompanied to France, walking over the Pyrenees
mountains and into the relative safety of neutral Spain.  He made his
way to Gibraltar, where he was recovered by the RAF.

His book is especially interesting since at the time Watt was a
communist, and had fought the Nazis in the Spanish Civil War as a
member of the Lincoln brigade.  I met George and four others of his
crew at last year's 8th AF Historical Society reunion.  The 8AFHS
had also brought from Belgium several members of the Comet Connection,
and the farmer who first hid him.  While the farmer could speak almost
no English, he and a friend of mine had a quite animated discussion
about the relative merits of German versus British machine guns!

Dennis E. Sparks
[email-masked]
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Nov 1993 08:37:39 EST
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Guy Sajer

>I am a reference librarian at the University of North Texas and I
>have a reference question from a patron that I hope you folks can
>help me with.  The patron needs any biographical information on Guy
>Sajer, the author of "The Forgotten Soldier" that has appeared since
>he published his book.  If he has died, I need to know his dates.  If
>he is still living, where is he and has he been involved in anything
>significant lately? I've checked BIOBASE and the other standard
>biographical indexes that we have here and have come up empty.
>Anybody out there have any information or any ideas on where I can
>look? I remember several posts on "The Forgotten Soldier" from a
>couple of months back but, dummy that I am, I deleted them. If you
>can find any information, please give me the source. Thanks in
>advance.
>
>Walter F. Bell
>University of North Texas Libraries
>Denton, Texas
>[email-masked]

Walter,

Guy Sajer is deceased.  He died a few years ago.  My friend who met him
says any info that is available might be had through the
Grossdeutschland Association (soldiers who served in the Grossdeutschland
Division in World War II) in Germany.  I do not have an address.

Bear

Barrett F. Lowe                    RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, US Military Academy, West Point, NY 10996

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Nov 1993 09:36:28 CST
From:    Lou Coatney <[email-masked]>
Subject: American crewmen last seen with Soviets ... and Katyn

Carol,

     I know that many American POWs were being evacuated from (formerly)
German prison camps in Poland to Odessa for embarkation back to the United
States.  Lt. Col. John H. Van Vliet, Jr., the senior American POW the
Germans took to Katyn in Spring 1943 was supposed to have been evacuated
through that port like most others.

     However, after consultation with senior British and American POWs in
his camp, they decided he was at special risk with the Soviets because of
his private opinion that the NKVD had murdered the Polish officers and
cadets at Katyn.  So, accompanied by 2 other POWs, he hopped on bicycles
and drove west to Anglo-American lines.

     Upon arriving, he immediately reported his knowledge of Katyn to
SHEAF -- Anglo-American headquarters -- and was whisked back to Washington
DC where (in the Pentagon) in May 1945 he wrote a report classified "Top
Secret" for Gen. Clayton Bissell, General Marshall's chief of intelligence.
At his own request, Van Vliet received a "gag order" not to say anything
about Katyn or his report.

     The report was "lost".  The Russian Katyn historian, Abarinov, claims
Alger Hiss was a Soviet operative and destroyed/stole the report.  In
1949 or 1950, a public hearing by concerned citizens -- including former
U.S. Ambassador to Poland Arthur Bliss Lane -- discovered that the report
had existed.  The Army couldn't find it, so Van Vliet was ordered to
write another.

     As to your father's friends, it is odd that they were "B-29" crewmen,
since (to my knowledge) no B-29s were deployed in Europe during World War
II.  It IS possible something bad may have happened to them, as Polish
people well understood/know, and I hope you will not give up your effort
to locate any of these fellows who might still be alive.

     I am finishing a masters thesis on the Katyn Massacre -- 135 pages
of text, plus 450+ endnotes, well over 100 books cited, well over 100
articles cited -- which may cause some serious controversy about the
abandonment, coverup, and betrayal of the Poles during WWII (with an
analogy to our similar treatment of the Indochinese in the 1970s).

     The Jan 93 discovery in Moscow by a Harvard researcher of a GRU
document which indicates that there were 600 more American POWs in
North Vietnam than we knew about -- see "The 1205 Document," by
Stephen Morris in the Fall 1993 issue of THE NATIONAL INTEREST -- is a
more direct similarity to our "burying" of the Katyn Massacre in the
West in the 1940s.

     I interviewed Col. Van Vliet, among others, over the telephone for
my thesis.

     Carol, would you share this/my e-mail message with any contacts you
have in Poland who might be interested?  Thank you.

Lou Coatney, Western Illinois University Library, Macomb IL 61455
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Nov 1993 08:07:01 PST
From:    Peter Trott <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 3 Shermans?

On Thu, 4 Nov 1993, Lou Coatney wrote:

> Joe,
>      What was the quote from?
> Lou

Looks to me like dialogue from "Kelly's Heroes," the only WWII movie
I ever saw with a Hippie in a starring role.  Fun movie; I recommend
it.

Peter Trott ([email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Nov 1993 10:43:59 CST
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WANT: Info on movie...

Ugh.  I know the info, but none of it can be dredged out of the
recesses of my brain cavity...

Many warbirds calendars ago, there was a movie about the V-1 rocket
and the British attack (facing much internal opposition) against
Peenemunde.  The movie begins with the first flight tests (manned)
of the V-1 which regularly resulted in a sudden, violent loss of both
craft and pilot.  Hanna Reisch herself flies the V-1 and, although
crashes, discovers the problem to be the trim.

First, I need to figure out what the heck the title of the movie is!
:-).  Secondly, find out if someone has a movie guide that can tell
me who the producer, editor, director, writer, etc. were.  But if I
get the first part, the second part can be found.

The movie shows up with semi-infrequent irregularity on TNT and other
cable stations...

(*) Please ignore all spelling errors... :-)

(**) This movie was much more accurate than "Destination Tokyo," which
     today is amusing in its propaganda and Navy issuing lever action
     rifles to the landing party... :-)

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
[email-masked]                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 6 Nov 1993 00:06:14 +0700
From:    "Peter E. Beal" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: USAAF 5 NOV 1943

Just a small aside which will clear up a misconception on the part of
many, especially those who admire(d) those who fought in Spain against
Franco (my uncle amongst them).   There was no "Lincoln Brigade".  There
_was_ a Lincoln Battalion, one of several which made up the XV
International Brigade.  When sufficient Americans (and Canadians) arrived
a second battalion, the Washington Battalion, was formed.  However, after
their first (or first few) real combat actions these two units were so
reduced in strength that they were merged and the surviving unit was
known as the "Lincoln-Washington Battalion".

The "upgrading" of the Lincoln Battalion to a brigade typified the U.S.
left wing's attempt to make their contribution to the Republican cause in
the Spanish Civil War larger than it actually was.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Nov 1993 11:08:01 -0500
From:    "M. Joseph Barone" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: USAAF 5 NOV 43

From: [email-masked]:
>   The 356th Fighter Squadron, 354th Fighter Group, arrives at Greenham Common,
> England from the U.S. with P-51's. The squadron will fly it's first mission on
> 1 Dec.

In the movie, "Memphis Belle", P-51s escort the B-17s in July, 1943.
Is this artistic license or were P-51s available by then?  I don't
recall P-51s being mentioned in Jack's "50 YA" messages in July.
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
Crap Game: And who are those bunch of refugees over there?
 Odd Ball: Hey, it's the band!
Crap Game: The band? What do we need a band for?
 Odd Ball: Have a little faith, Crap Game, they're beautiful people!

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Nov 1993 14:43:25 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: mystery

Date sent:      Fri, 5 Nov 1993 09:24:15 EST-500
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <[email-masked]>
From:           Carol Owen Bell <[email-masked]>
Subject:        Re: mystery
Originally to:  [email-masked]
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <[email-masked]>

> From: "Denis Ouellette, Indiana Univ" <[email-masked]>
>
> It would be wonderful to find out about these men.  Now the part I wonder
> about is 1. where B-29s flying over Europe in March, 1945 and 2. What
> where they doing over Poland.
> Also, I recall recent reports, based on information released from the new
> Russian government, that some US airman were held from WWII for years
> and I assume died there.  Does anyone recall the details?  Where these
> man who had crashed on missions of Eastern Europe or those that crashed
> on missions to Japan, having tried to fly to Russia or Soviet held territory?
>
    I also questioned a B-29 being over Poland. Of course, in 50
years that part could be wrong. Her father did not see the plane but
saw the men as they were parachuting down and went to their aid.
    Was Germany still being bombed at this point? Could they have
veered over Poland trying to ditch a shot-up plane?
    I couldn't understand why they would not want help getting back to
the American sector in Germany?
    Could these guys have been OSS?

Carol Bell
University of Tennessee-Knoxville
Office of University Relations
News Center

Carol,

At that point in time, the only B-29's that could have ever been
flown to Europe were those on their way to China to bomb the Japs.

There is no record of any B-29 ever having been used on a bombing
mission to Germany. Some B-29's were flown via England on a ferrying
mission to the Orient.

Also, the plane from which those airmen parachuted was either a B-24
or a B-17 that could easily have flown from Italy via Poland
towards the Soviet Union which was done, BTW, on several occasions on
shuttle-bombing missions. These missions had the purpose of bombing
targets beyond the normal operating range of American bombers and
proceeding on to Poltava in the Ukraine for refueling and rebombing
and returning to their original destination.

I personally, feel that these airmen seen parachuting from an
American bomber were part of such a shuttle mission. It is
understandable that these airmen would be interested in getting to
the Soviets as quickly as possible because, as allies, it was much
closer to get there than try to get back to the original base from
which they had taken off.

At that point in time, OSS operations were concentrated in the South
German area because of the suspicion or rumor of a "National Redoubt"
that prompted Eisenhower to shift the direction of main Western
Allied attack from the direction of Berlin toward Bavaria. This is
also another story.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Nov 1993 14:52:00 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Patton One-Upping Monty

Date sent:      Fri, 5 Nov 1993 09:41:46 EST
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <[email-masked]>
From:           Charles Reace <[email-masked]>
Subject:        Re: Patton One-Upping Monty
Originally to:  [email-masked]
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <[email-masked]>

Regarding British drop zones at Arnhem:

While this thread (including my earlier entry) has bemoaned the British
drop zone, the fact is that they did capture the north approaches to the
bridge, and held it for much longer than the planned worst case of 4 days.

It does seem possible that they could have dropped some forces closer to
the bridge possibly, it would appear that the real problem with the plan
was in the Garden end.  Some combination of over-estimating XXX Corps'
abilitity to attack up the "one road" and an underestimation of the German
opposistion apparently gave Monty et al an unrealistic schedule.

I've read about the intelligence foul-ups regarding the allies' lack of
knowledge about the presence of the re-fitting panzer divisions near
Arnhem and the escape of the 15th Army.  But, I was wondering what was
the intelligence concerning the Germans in the XXX Corps breakout area?
Did they realize they were up against some pretty good Falschirmjaeger
divisions? (Please excuse my attempt at German spelling.)

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <[email-masked]>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

Charles,

You raise an interesting point. There were some Fallschirmjaeger
regiments in the vicinity of Arnheim along with the 9th and 10th SS-
Panzer Divisions, and this is overlooked, in my opinion, on any post-
mortem of the MG operation.

I don't think the Allies had any inkling of what they were up
against in this operation. Up to this point, the German Army had
endured a collapse and continual retreat, which, I am certain, fed
British and American egos, regarding the fighting capabilities of the
Germans. In my opinion, this led to an overestimation of Allied
striking power and a corresponding underestimation of the German
resilience and recuperative powers. Thus, from the standpoint of the
Brits, it didn't make any difference what forces were awaiting them
at Arnheim or at any other point along that single highway. The Brits
felt that these German elements were weak and of inferior quality
anyway, and it didn't really matter what they did, because these
forces were facing crack and fresh troops from England. I can't help
but feel that this idea was in the minds of Boy Browning and Monty.

I really wonder why Eisenhower finally approved this operation, since
it this operation really violated his policy of the "Broad Front"
strategy. I can't help but feel that Churchill was involved in this
last effort by Montgomery to exert some influence on overall Allied
ground strategy.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Nov 1993 14:58:52 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: mystery

Date sent:      Fri, 5 Nov 1993 09:05:42 EST
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <[email-masked]>
From:           "Denis Ouellette, Indiana Univ" <[email-masked]>
Subject:        Re: mystery
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <[email-masked]>

It would be wonderful to find out about these men.  Now the part I wonder
about is 1. where B-29s flying over Europe in March, 1945 and 2. What
where they doing over Poland.
Also, I recall recent reports, based on information released from the new
Russian government, that some US airman were held from WWII for years
and I assume died there.  Does anyone recall the details?  Where these
man who had crashed on missions of Eastern Europe or those that crashed
on missions to Japan, having tried to fly to Russia or Soviet held territory?

Dennis,

The only thing that comes to mind here is that Americans were
routinely interned if they came into Russian control. Even some of
the Doolittle raiders were interned, but released, mainly, I think,
because they were too well known, and it would have been very
difficult to retain them without raising a stink in the U.S.

Your last question contains its answer, as well. All this is off the
top of my head, but it would seem logical for American airmen on
missions to Japan, having taken off from mainland China would have
flown to the Soviet Union, as a result of battle damage that would
prevent their safe return to base. The same could be said of those
planes taking off from Tinian or Guam, and, thus it is conceivable
that this did happen, and it would have been very easy for the
Russians to keep Allied airmen for their purposes.

Also, as you know, in the post war era, with this country conducting
overflights of Soviet territory, there were instances of these planes
being shot down with no clue as to the whereabouts or state of the
survivors.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Nov 1993 14:59:55 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Allied Air Campaign in Europe (fwd)

Date sent:      Fri, 5 Nov 1993 08:03:34 EST
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <[email-masked]>
From:           "Denis Ouellette, Indiana Univ" <[email-masked]>
Subject:        Re: Allied Air Campaign in Europe (fwd)
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <[email-masked]>

On the effectiveness of strategic bombing-
Yes, partly my mistake, I did forget to mention the role of the A bomb
in postwar defence planning.  However, I still think the role of
conventional stategic bombing in Europe was over played

Dennis,

In the light of recent research, I would agree with that. Strategic
bombing was absolutely necessary, I think, but, in the light of the
results and the cost-effectiveness of it, it was overdone.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Nov 1993 19:33:05 EST
From:    Richard Kaplan <[email-masked]>
Subject: V-1 Movie

Robert, If this is the movie, it was called "Operation Crossbow" and starred
George Peppard, Sophia Loren, and Anthony Quayle as an especially despicable
Gestapo plant.  Hope this helps!
And what is wrong with Destination: Tokyo? Its still better than Cockleshell
Heros, where you can see the plastic fighter models melt after they've been
blown up.

                                                Richard Kaplan
                                                Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh
                                                Definately not PC, just poor.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 6 Nov 1993 11:18:19 +0700
From:    "Peter E. Beal" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: mystery

On Fri, 5 Nov 1993, Terry Moore wrote:

>
> Also, as you know, in the post war era, with this country conducting
> overflights of Soviet territory, there were instances of these planes
> being shot down with no clue as to the whereabouts or state of the
> survivors.
>
It didn't end with overflights.  A friend told me that his brother, who
served in the Special Forces (or a predecesor organization) was
parachuted with his unit into the Soviet Far East with the mission of
extracting one or more prisanors held in a Russian camp there.  We did
not discuss it in detail or further, but the next time see him, I will
ask for more information.  Perhaps now that the cold war is over some of
these missions will come to the surface.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Nov 1993 22:57:40 CST
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: V-1 Movie

> Robert, If this is the movie, it was called "Operation Crossbow" and starred
> George Peppard, Sophia Loren, and Anthony Quayle as an especially despicable
> Gestapo plant.  Hope this helps!

That's the one.  Many thanks.

> And what is wrong with Destination: Tokyo? Its still better than Cockleshell
> Heros, where you can see the plastic fighter models melt after they've been
> blown up.

Cool.  I'll have to check out this film.  But were the models at least
accurate?  :-)

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
[email-masked]                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 4 Nov 1993 to 5 Nov 1993
***********************************************