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There are 11 messages totalling 427 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Patton One-Upping Monty (2)
  2. USAAF 4 NOV 43
  3. USN News
  4. Allied Air Campaign in Europe (fwd)
  5. 3 Shermans?
  6. Librarians and Objectivity
  7. neo-Nazis and Jews
  8. Guy Sajer
  9. mystery
 10. INF,REF: German plans for attacking Sweden

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 4 Nov 1993 06:26:12 EST
From:    "Denis Ouellette, Indiana Univ" <OUELLETT@UCS.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Patton One-Upping Monty

On the Polish drop at Arnhem-
It ended up being a day late and a dollar short.  The orginal drop site
for the Poles, south of the bridge, was held by the SS Panzer Grenadiers
so a new drop site was made west near Driel. Had the 1st to able to hold
the northern end of the ferry crossing it might have made a difference.
The Poles made several costly attempts at crossing the river, but only
a handful got across.  Also, lacking heavy weapons they could be of
no assitance to the trapped 1st.
BTW, I've been trying to get a copy of Gen. Sosabowski's book "Freely I Serve"
I would think that would have the most details.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 4 Nov 1993 07:25:35 -0500
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 4 NOV 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
THURSDAY, 4 NOVEMBER 1993
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): The Chinese-American Composite Wing enters
combat on this date. It's B-25's hit Amoy and Swatom, China successfully
bombing and strafing ground troops, supply facilities, and shipping; the
B-25's claim 4 cargo ships badly damaged and possibly sunk.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): HQ 445th Bombardment Group (Heavy)
arrives at Tibenham, England from the U.S.
  HQ 446th Bombardment Group (Heavy) and it's 704th, 705th, 706th and 707th
Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy) arrive at Flixton, England with B-24's. They
will fly their first mission on 16 Dec.
  The 27th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, 7th Photographic
Reconnaissance and Mapping Group, arrives at Mount Farm, England from the U.S.
with F-5's.
  The 614th and 615th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), 401st Bombardment
Squadron (Heavy), arrive at Deenethorpe, England from the U.S. with B-17's.
They will fly their first mission on 26 Nov.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): HQ Ninth Air Force issues a letter
ordering a small detachment of HQ, the IX Air Force Engineer Section, to
assume the functions of a command under Colonel Karl B Schilling, thus
beginning the creation of IX Engineer Command.
  HQ 354th Fighter Group and it's 353d and 355th Fighter Squadron arrive at
Greenham Common, England from the U.S. with P-51's. They will fly their first
mission on 1 Dec. The is the first fighter group assigned to the Ninth Air
Force.
  The 75th and 78th Troop Carrier Squadrons, 435th Troop Carrier Group, arrive
at Langer, England from the U.S. with C-47's and C-53's.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Italy, B-17's bomb railroads
between Montalto di Castro and Orbetello, between Orbetello and Talamone, and
between San Vincenzo and Cecina; bomb-carrying P-38's, escorted by others, hit
a tunnel N of Terni and strafe Montalto di Castro.
  HQ 325th Fighter Group and it's 317th, 318th and 319th Fighter Squadron
transfer from Mateur to Soliman, Tunisia with P-47's.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): Brigadier General Donald A Davison
takes command of the XII Air Force Engineer Command (Provisional), following
the command's assignment to the Twelfth Air Force on 1 Nov. In Italy, XII Air
Support Command and RAF fighters and fighter-bombers hit trucks and trains in
the Sora-Avezzano area, the airfields of Furbara and Tarquinia, and small
vessels off Pescara, Italy and Solta, Yugoslavia.
  The 522d and 524th Fighter-Bomber Squadrons, 27th Fighter-Bomber Group,
transfer from Capaccio to Paestum and Guado Airfield, Italy respectively with
A-36's.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, 23 B-24's strike the airfield on Buka Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): P-40's bomb
Palmalmal Plantation, New Guinea.  B-24's on armed reconnaissance claim 1
vessel sunk N of New Britain Island in the Bismarck Archipelago.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 4 Nov 1993 07:42:41 -0500
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USN News

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Navy News Service - NAVNEWS BY EMAIL - navnews@opnav-emh.navy.mil
-----------------------------------------------------------------
NAVY NEWS SERVICE - 3 NOV 93 - NAVNEWS 074/93
   Top News and Policy Stories
NNS864.  Navy Cross Awarded to WWII Veteran
   Personnel Notes
NNS868.  Evals for SERB Eligible Chiefs Important
                               -USN-
NNS864.  Navy Cross Awarded to WWII Veteran
WASHINGTON (NNS) -- World War II Navy veteran Alonzo A. Swann was
awarded the Navy Cross in a ceremony held Nov. 3 in New York City
on board the aircraft carrier Intrepid for his courageous action in
combat during an attack on the carrier in October 1944.  Swann
heroically manned his anti-aircraft gun on Intrepid in the face of
a determined Japanese Kamikaze attack.
     In February 1945, Mr. Swann and six of his shipmates were
awarded the Bronze Star Medal, the nation's fourth highest award
for valor.  Swann, an African-American, stated he was to be awarded
the higher decoration of the Navy Cross, but it was downgraded to a
Bronze Star due to his race.  He sought to have the medal upgraded
to the higher award by first petitioning the Navy and later through
legal action.
     Swann's efforts brought his case to the attention of then
Secretary of the Navy Sean O'Keefe for the first time.  After
personally reviewing all the facts of the case, Secretary O'Keefe
decided the appropriate level of award for Swann's combat action
was the Navy Cross, and the Intrepid Museum Society generously
offered to sponsor the ceremony.
                               -USN-
         Personnel Notes
NNS867.  Naval Aviation Schools Command Needs LDO/CWO Memorabilia
NAS PENSACOLA, Fla. (NNS) -- The Director, Officer Training School,
Naval Aviation Schools Command in Pensacola, Fla., has initiated a
program to pay tribute to the Navy's limited duty and chief warrant
officers.
     LCDR Warren E. Tuthill, project officer, is interested in
reaching all members of the LDO/CWO community, both active and
retired, to solicit donations of photographs, newspaper clippings,
historic literature, plaques, mugs, decals and former warrant
officer mess memorabilia.
     If you have information or items you would like to donate,
contact:  LCDR Warren E. Tuthill, Naval Aviation Schools Command
(Code 152), 181 Chambers Ave., Suite C, NAS Pensacola, Fla. 32508-
5221, (904) 452-3170/2781/4230 or (DSN) 922-3170/2781.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 4 Nov 1993 15:33:05 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@NAT2.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: Allied Air Campaign in Europe (fwd)

On Wed, 3 Nov 1993, Denis Ouellette, Indiana Univ wrote:

> Another point is that over estimation of the effectiveness of strategic
> bombing lead to an over lavishing of the USAF after the war.
> I still find it hard to beleave that the ground forces in Korea fought
> with equipment that had barely changed from 1945.

I think that this had more to do with the A-bomb. The B-29 was the only
means of delivering it at the time.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 4 Nov 1993 12:39:40 CST
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: 3 Shermans?

Joe,

     What was the quote from?

Lou

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 4 Nov 1993 13:51:31 -0500
From:    Steven VEST <vest@ALPHA.ACAST.NOVA.EDU>
Subject: Librarians and Objectivity

Dennis:

    Once again I feel I need to defend my profession.  You seem to be
making a rather sweeping generalization about librarians.  I can speak
from experience that that the librarians I've met work harder at being
objective than any other group I've known.  As I've said before, I have
seen librarians order books that espouse ideas with which they completely
disagree.  It sounds as if you have had one or two circumstances where
you perceived a bias.  I might be able to respond to one or two of these
circumstances.

   You mention that you donated some paperback books on World War Two and
later saw them sold at a book sale.  Many libraries have a policy of not
adding ANY paperbacks to their collection.  Studies have shown that they
wont stand up to circulation and the cost of processing, cataloging and
repairing these books is more than their value.  Often the library can
gain more by selling the books and pumping that money back into operating
expenses.

   As to the Dallas library removing Soldier of Fortune, was this during
the period when the case of the person hiring a hired killer from the
back of SOF was going on?  Some libraries dropped their subscriptions
during this time out of fear of facing law suits if someone else did this
using a magazine they obtained at the library.  I realize that this is a
bit crazy, but many institutions have become much too "gun shy" (no pun
intended) about anything that might result in a suit against the
library.

   Now, as to the school library and its policy of not collecting "war
books" I would indeed raise hell.  Go to the school board and tell them
of this policy (they may be totally unaware of this policy) and express
your displeasure in direct terms.  This is indeed censorship and no
professional librarian worth their salt would condone it.  You may want
to see if the person running this library is a professional.  This sounds
more like something that a non-professional volunteer "librarian" would do.

   I apologize to the members of this group for moving out of the WWII
subject.  But I wanted to respond publicly to a public statement.  If
Dennis is willing we'll take any further discussion of this matter to
personal e-mail.
========================== vest@alpha.acast.nova.edu=========================
= Steven Vest: Head, Off Campus Lib. Services: Nova University, Ft. Ldl, FL =
= Two broken tigers, on fire in the night, flicker their souls to the wind. =
=                                     Al Stewart--Past, Present and Future. =
===============No statements made here reflect Nova University===============

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 4 Nov 1993 14:57:33 EST
From:    Robert E George <regeorge@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: neo-Nazis and Jews

Joe writes:
>
> The physician who had treated Hitler's mother was also Jewish
> and he (the physician) remained unmolested throughout the war.
> --
> Joe Barone
> m1b@rayssd.ssd.ray.com
> I thought you said three Shermans.  Those
> nuts have brought half the army with them.
>

     This was Dr. Bloch or Dr. Blum ( I cannot recall the exact name).
     My understanding (based on recollections of Toland's book, which is
not at hand) was that the physician fled Austria shortly after Anschluss,
but that he (the physician) felt that he had received some special
consideration. We are in agreement that the doctor survived the war.

     Does anybody have concrete details? I would like to know the
details.

Rob George

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 4 Nov 1993 15:45:50 CST-6CDT
From:    "Walter Bell, U. of North Texas" <WBELL@LIBRARY.UNT.EDU>
Subject: Guy Sajer

I am a reference librarian at the University of North Texas and I
have a reference question from a patron that I hope you folks can
help me with.  The patron needs any biographical information on Guy
Sajer, the author of "The Forgotten Soldier" that has appeared since
he published his book.  If he has died, I need to know his dates.  If
he is still living, where is he and has he been involved in anything
significant lately? I've checked BIOBASE and the other standard
biographical indexes that we have here and have come up empty.
Anybody out there have any information or any ideas on where I can
look? I remember several posts on "The Forgotten Soldier" from a
couple of months back but, dummy that I am, I deleted them. If you
can find any information, please give me the source. Thanks in
advance.

Walter F. Bell
University of North Texas Libraries
Denton, Texas
wbell@library.unt.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 4 Nov 1993 16:47:09 EST-500
From:    Carol Owen Bell <CAROLB@NOVELL.UR.UTK.EDU>
Subject: mystery

    I have a mystery I would like the list members' help solving. The
story came from a Polish friend of mine who wants help trying to
locate some U.S. soliders her father, a member of the Polish
underground, met towards the end of the war. The story follows.

    "During the closing days of World War II, my father, Stanislas
("Stanley") Nowak, met in Poland some Americans from a B-29 crew just
after they parachuted from their crippled bomber. The airmen wanted
help getting to Lublin, to Charkow in the Soviet Union or to Turkey.
My father sheltered the men, befriending them up until the time they
linked up with the Soviet military a month later.
    "At that time my father was a medical student and a member of the
Polish Underground Army (A.K.) which was cooperating with the Polish
government in exile in London. My father's first meeting with the
American soliders was at Turek, near Kalisz. He drove them to Lodz,
where they stayed for a month. One of the men, a Sergeant Warren, was
injured and died at a hospital in Lodz.
    "The time would have been February, March of April, 1945, just
after the Red Army occupied this area on its way to Berlin. Because
my father didn't trust the Russians, he warned the Americans to avoid
them. However, after leaving the hospital, the airmen did make
contact with the Russian Chief of Aviation at the Army Aviation
Headquarters in Lodz on Pomorska Street. That was the last my father
heard or saw of the American soliders.
    "To this day my father carries their names, as he wrote them down
in 1945:
    1. Albert, Richard -- Lieutenant; crew chief
    2. Flax, Herman -- Sergeant; 721 S. Jackson, Denver, Colorado
    3. Hale, Glenn K. -- 7951 Yale Ave., Chicago
    4. Laubenstein, ?? -- Sergeant
    5. Lewn, John
    6. Warren, ?? --
    "My father has always wondered why his American friends wished to
go to Russia and if any of them are alive today. I would like to help
my father locate them, to find out if any of the men are still living
and where they are. Both my father and I would appreciate any leads
that might help our search.
    "Elizabeth Nowak-Pyda"

    Now my question is, do any of you know where to start. I don't
have any reason to doubt the veracity of the story.



Carol Bell
University of Tennessee-Knoxville
Office of University Relations
News Center

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 4 Nov 1993 23:26:54 +0100
From:    Asad Rustum <f90-aru@NADA.KTH.SE>
Subject: INF,REF: German plans for attacking Sweden

Hello,


I posted this as a question a few days ago, but I'm not sure whether
it came through or not, so I'll try again.

Recently on the news I heard that German plans to invade Sweden during
WW2 were discovered in Germany. I'd like to know how to get hold of
this information and anything that has to do with the plans.  To make
things easy for you, what units were supposed to have attaked,
preferably with their composition, where were they planned to attack
and what date & time were they supposed to have attacked should the
attack ever have been launched.

If these plans are available, could I get them in Swedish, English or
French or do they only come in one flavour - German?

Any help is much appreciated.

Many thanks,

+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
 Asad Rustum                          'Oh Lord won't you buy me
 f90-aru@nada.kth.se                   a Mercedes Benz...'
 atomic@astrakan.hgs.se                Janis Joplin

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 4 Nov 1993 09:12:00 CDT
From:    Roger Safian <ROGER@NUACC.ACNS.NWU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Patton One-Upping Monty

Greetings,

    I don't want to fan the Market-Garden flames any more, but I do
happen to have this can of gasoline here!  :-)

If I recall things correctly, the recon bn of the 9th SS crossed the
bridge shortly before Frosts para bn arrived at the north end.  I'm
pretty sure that the SS were ordered to hold both Arnhem and Nimegien(sp)
bridges until help arrived.  Since there was no action in Arnhem, the bn
went on it's way and secured the nimegien bridge.

The point here is that if we want to play "What if" here, we need to
consider a lot more than just what if the British did this or that.
What if Model believed the captured plans were real.  What if he gave
orders to destroy the bridges at once.

I think discussions such as this are interesting, but ultimatly there
is no way to end this.

I suggest that we all take a moment to consider the cost of this
operation.  Americans, British, Dutch, Germans, Poles...lives and
properity were shattered.  Let's make sure it doesn't happen again.

Somehow this all seems to deep for first thing in the morning...I
wonder if someone spiked my coffee?  ;-}

                                              Roger

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 3 Nov 1993 to 4 Nov 1993
***********************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 4 Nov 1993 to 5 Nov 1993
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Status: O

There are 25 messages totalling 970 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. 3 Shermans? (2)
  2. mystery (8)
  3. Italian surrender -- longterm benefits!!
  4. USAAF 5 NOV 43 (2)
  5. INF,REF: German plans for attacking Sweden
  6. Allied Air Campaign in Europe (fwd) (2)
  7. Patton One-Upping Monty (2)
  8. USAAF 5 NOV 1943 (2)
  9. Guy Sajer
 10. American crewmen last seen with Soviets ... and Katyn
 11. WANT: Info on movie...
 12. V-1 Movie (2)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Nov 1993 16:03:27 +1100
From:    Mick Fauchon <ulmjf@DEWEY.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: 3 Shermans?

        Lou,

                Don't you know Joe better than that by now? We do .....

                                                        Cheers,

                                                        Mick.

--                                                                          --
Mick Fauchon                          | Internet: ulmjf@dewey.newcastle.edu.au
Reference Section, Auchmuty Library   | Ph  (intl+61+49) 215861
University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA    | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833


On Thu, 4 Nov 1993, Lou Coatney wrote:

> Joe,
>
>      What was the quote from?
>
> Lou

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Nov 1993 11:32:48 +0200
From:    Chris Scogings <cscoging@UNPCS1.CS.UNP.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: mystery

>    "During the closing days of World War II, my father, Stanislas
>("Stanley") Nowak, met in Poland some Americans from a B-29 crew just
>after they parachuted from their crippled bomber....

B-29s flew over Poland?

Chris
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Scogings                      Voice: (27) 331 955645
Computer Science Dept                 Fax: (27) 331 955599
University of Natal
Pietermaritzburg                   E-Mail:cscoging@unpcs1.cs.unp.ac.za
----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 4 Nov 1993 23:16:29 CST
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Italian surrender -- longterm benefits!!

Gina Lollabrigida?  Sophia Loren?  Virna Lisi?  Elsa Martinelli?  and many
  beautiful others(?)

Obviously, it is much better to have Italians as friends and allies, than
  enemies.

Lou Coatney, :-)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Nov 1993 07:13:36 -0500
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 5 NOV 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
FRIDAY, 5 NOVEMBER 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  Beaufighter, Bristol
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-9, Boeing Flying Fortress
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ZONE OF INTERIOR: The 19th Photographic Charting Squadron, 1st Photographic
Charting Group, based at Bradley Field, Connecticut, sends a detachment to
Mexico City, Mexico with F-9's to photo-map Mexico.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): The 459th Fighter Squadron, 80th Fighter
Group, transfers from Karachi to Kurmitola, India with P-38's. They will fly
their first mission on 14 Nov.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ANTISUBMARINE OPERATIONS: B-25's of the 1st Composite Squadron and USN
land-based aircraft based on Ascension Island sink U-848 in the S Atlantic at
10-09S 18-00W.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): VIII Bomber Command Mission 121.
Two targets in Germany are hit with the loss of 8 B-17's and 3 B-24's.
  1. 323 of 374 B-17's and 9 of 11 B-17 pathfinders hit the marshalling yard
and oil plants at Gelsenkirchen, Germany at 1313-1350 hours; they claim 6-1-4
Luftwaffe aircraft; 8 B-17's are lost, 3 damaged beyond repair and 223
damaged. Casualties are 4 KIA, 35 WIA and 84 MIA. The B-17's are escorted by
47 P-38's and 336 P-47's; they claim 18-6-3 Luftwaffe aircraft; 4 P-47's are
lost and 1 is damaged beyond repair; casualties are 4 MIA.
  2. 104 of 118 B-24's hit the marshaling yard at Munster at 1349-1358 hours;
they claim 21-3-7 Luftwaffe aircraft; 3 B-24's are lost, 1 is damaged beyond
repair and 43 damaged; casualties are 7 KIA, 22 WIA and 31 MIA.
  3. VIII Bomber Command Mission 122: 5 B-17's drop 1,004,000 leaflets over
Paris, Amiens, Rouen and Caen at 1917-2005 hours; no losses or casualties.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): An Eighth Air Force training officer
arrives to assist HQ IX Fighter Command in setting up a comprehensive training
system for fighter pilots. The training is based on the Eighth Air Force
system; the Eighth Air Force and Royal Air Force (RAF) cooperate with the
Ninth in instituting this program. 150+ B-26's bomb construction works at
Mimoyecques, France; poor visibility causes one group to bomb the area SW of
the primary targets; bad weather causes numerous aborts.
  The 356th Fighter Squadron, 354th Fighter Group, arrives at Greenham Common,
England from the U.S. with P-51's. The squadron will fly it's first mission on
1 Dec.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 3 B-24's on a low-level raid
bomb the Falconara-Marittima railroad and highway bridges in Italy.
  The 432d Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 17th Bombardment Group (Medium),
transfers from Djedeida, Tunisia to Villacidro, Sardinia with B-26's.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): XII Air Support Command B-25's,
escorted by Fifteenth Air Force P-38's, hit the Berat-Kucove Airfield in
Albania. In Italy, the Northwest African Tactical Bomber Force (NATBF) bombs
roads E of Atina and N of Rome, and hits vehicles moving S from Pescara; XII
Air Support Command and RAF Desert Air Force (DAF) fighters and fighter-bombers
attack motor transport N of Vasto, bridges and roads W of Isernia, Cassino, and
Atena Lucana, the town of Castrocielo, and vessels off Split, Yugoslavia.
  HQ 17th Bombardment Group (Medium) transfers from Djedeida, Tunisia to
Sardinia.
  HQ 350th Fighter Group transfers from Rerhaiak Algeria to Sardinia.
  The 81st and 83d Bombardment Squadrons (Medium), 12th Bombardment Group
(Medium), transfer from Gerbini, Sicily to Foggia, Italy with B-25's.
  The 415th Night Fighter Squadron, XII Air Support Command, transfers from
Cassibile to Cantania, Sicily with Beaufighters.
  The 523d Fighter-Bomber Squadron, 27th Fighter-Bomber Group, transfers from
Capaccio to Gaudo Airfield, Italy with A-36's.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, 6 B-25's hit a bivouac area at Kieta on Bougainville Island and sink
at least 6 barges between Kieta and Banin Harbor. Allied fighters from the
Munda, New Georgia area cover a carrier strike which causes considerable damage
to shipping in the harbor at Rabaul, New Britain Island in the Bismarck
Archipelago.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): 90+ B-24's and
fighters attack the wharf areas of Rabaul on New Britain Island while Japanese
airplanes from surrounding airfields search for the carrier force that hit
Rabaul earlier in the day. In New Guinea, B-26's and P-39's hit Bogadjim Road,
B-25's pound positions NW of Dumpu, and P-39's bomb and strafe the Madang
area; P-47's over Wewak encounter a force of fighters and claim about 20 shot
down.
  The 67th Troop Carrier Squadron, 433d Troop Carrier Group, transfers from
Port Moresby to Nadzab, New Guinea with C-47's.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Nov 1993 06:46:28 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: INF,REF: German plans for attacking Sweden

Date sent:      Thu, 4 Nov 1993 23:26:54 +0100
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
From:           Asad Rustum <f90-aru@NADA.KTH.SE>
Subject:        INF,REF: German plans for attacking Sweden
Originally to:  wwii-l@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

Hello,


I posted this as a question a few days ago, but I'm not sure whether
it came through or not, so I'll try again.

Recently on the news I heard that German plans to invade Sweden during
WW2 were discovered in Germany. I'd like to know how to get hold of
this information and anything that has to do with the plans.  To make
things easy for you, what units were supposed to have attaked,
preferably with their composition, where were they planned to attack
and what date & time were they supposed to have attacked should the
attack ever have been launched.

If these plans are available, could I get them in Swedish, English or
French or do they only come in one flavour - German?

Any help is much appreciated.

Many thanks,

+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
 Asad Rustum                          'Oh Lord won't you buy me
 f90-aru@nada.kth.se                   a Mercedes Benz...'
 atomic@astrakan.hgs.se                Janis Joplin


Asad,

Did you receive my posting a couple of days ago? I am still
researching your question.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Nov 1993 06:51:01 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: mystery

Date sent:      Thu, 4 Nov 1993 16:47:09 EST-500
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
From:           Carol Owen Bell <CAROLB@NOVELL.UR.UTK.EDU>
Subject:        mystery
Originally to:  WWII-L%UBVM.BITNET@utkvm1.utk.edu
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

    I have a mystery I would like the list members' help solving. The
story came from a Polish friend of mine who wants help trying to
locate some U.S. soliders her father, a member of the Polish
underground, met towards the end of the war. The story follows.

    "During the closing days of World War II, my father, Stanislas
("Stanley") Nowak, met in Poland some Americans from a B-29 crew just
after they parachuted from their crippled bomber. The airmen wanted
help getting to Lublin, to Charkow in the Soviet Union or to Turkey.
My father sheltered the men, befriending them up until the time they
linked up with the Soviet military a month later.
    "At that time my father was a medical student and a member of the
Polish Underground Army (A.K.) which was cooperating with the Polish
government in exile in London. My father's first meeting with the
American soliders was at Turek, near Kalisz. He drove them to Lodz,
where they stayed for a month. One of the men, a Sergeant Warren, was
injured and died at a hospital in Lodz.
    "The time would have been February, March of April, 1945, just
after the Red Army occupied this area on its way to Berlin. Because
my father didn't trust the Russians, he warned the Americans to avoid
them. However, after leaving the hospital, the airmen did make
contact with the Russian Chief of Aviation at the Army Aviation
Headquarters in Lodz on Pomorska Street. That was the last my father
heard or saw of the American soliders.
    "To this day my father carries their names, as he wrote them down
in 1945:
    1. Albert, Richard -- Lieutenant; crew chief
    2. Flax, Herman -- Sergeant; 721 S. Jackson, Denver, Colorado
    3. Hale, Glenn K. -- 7951 Yale Ave., Chicago
    4. Laubenstein, ?? -- Sergeant
    5. Lewn, John
    6. Warren, ?? --
    "My father has always wondered why his American friends wished to
go to Russia and if any of them are alive today. I would like to help
my father locate them, to find out if any of the men are still living
and where they are. Both my father and I would appreciate any leads
that might help our search.
    "Elizabeth Nowak-Pyda"

    Now my question is, do any of you know where to start. I don't
have any reason to doubt the veracity of the story.



Carol Bell
University of Tennessee-Knoxville
Office of University Relations
News Center



Carol,

It sounds to me as though the Americans were wanting to go to Russia,
because that may have been their destination as part of the shuttle
bombing program that was going on at that time. That is the only
reason that comes to mind at this time.

There is a book in print that tells one how to get locate anyone who
had served at any time in the armed forces. I will get that info for
you.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Nov 1993 06:53:23 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: mystery

Carol,

One other comment. I doubt that it was a B-29 that flew over Poland
at that time. More than likely, it was a B-24 or B-17. B-29's were
employed against Japan, and, to my knowledge, no B-29 that flew
via Europe, i.e. England, to reach China was shot down over Poland.


Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Nov 1993 08:03:34 EST
From:    "Denis Ouellette, Indiana Univ" <OUELLETT@UCS.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Allied Air Campaign in Europe (fwd)

On the effectiveness of strategic bombing-
Yes, partly my mistake, I did forget to mention the role of the A bomb
in postwar defence planning.  However, I still think the role of
conventional stategic bombing in Europe was over played

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Nov 1993 09:05:42 EST
From:    "Denis Ouellette, Indiana Univ" <OUELLETT@UCS.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: mystery

It would be wonderful to find out about these men.  Now the part I wonder
about is 1. where B-29s flying over Europe in March, 1945 and 2. What
where they doing over Poland.
Also, I recall recent reports, based on information released from the new
Russian government, that some US airman were held from WWII for years
and I assume died there.  Does anyone recall the details?  Where these
man who had crashed on missions of Eastern Europe or those that crashed
on missions to Japan, having tried to fly to Russia or Soviet held territory?

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Nov 1993 09:24:15 EST-500
From:    Carol Owen Bell <CAROLB@NOVELL.UR.UTK.EDU>
Subject: Re: mystery

> From: "Denis Ouellette, Indiana Univ" <OUELLETT@UCS.INDIANA.EDU>
>
> It would be wonderful to find out about these men.  Now the part I wonder
> about is 1. where B-29s flying over Europe in March, 1945 and 2. What
> where they doing over Poland.
> Also, I recall recent reports, based on information released from the new
> Russian government, that some US airman were held from WWII for years
> and I assume died there.  Does anyone recall the details?  Where these
> man who had crashed on missions of Eastern Europe or those that crashed
> on missions to Japan, having tried to fly to Russia or Soviet held territory?
>
    I also questioned a B-29 being over Poland. Of course, in 50
years that part could be wrong. Her father did not see the plane but
saw the men as they were parachuting down and went to their aid.
    Was Germany still being bombed at this point? Could they have
veered over Poland trying to ditch a shot-up plane?
    I couldn't understand why they would not want help getting back to
the American sector in Germany?
    Could these guys have been OSS?







Carol Bell
University of Tennessee-Knoxville
Office of University Relations
News Center

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Nov 1993 09:41:46 EST
From:    Charles Reace <creace@ISD.CSC.COM>
Subject: Re: Patton One-Upping Monty

Regarding British drop zones at Arnhem:

While this thread (including my earlier entry) has bemoaned the British
drop zone, the fact is that they did capture the north approaches to the
bridge, and held it for much longer than the planned worst case of 4 days.

It does seem possible that they could have dropped some forces closer to
the bridge possibly, it would appear that the real problem with the plan
was in the Garden end.  Some combination of over-estimating XXX Corps'
abilitity to attack up the "one road" and an underestimation of the German
opposistion apparently gave Monty et al an unrealistic schedule.

I've read about the intelligence foul-ups regarding the allies' lack of
knowledge about the presence of the re-fitting panzer divisions near
Arnhem and the escape of the 15th Army.  But, I was wondering what was
the intelligence concerning the Germans in the XXX Corps breakout area?
Did they realize they were up against some pretty good Falschirmjaeger
divisions? (Please excuse my attempt at German spelling.)

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <creace@isd.csc.com>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Nov 1993 09:21:04 -0400
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: Re: USAAF 5 NOV 1943

One of the B-17Fs shot down on the 5 Nov mission to Gelsenkirchen
was "Butcher Boy", assigned to the 388th BG, piloted by Lt. Bramwell.
The aircraft was hit by flak over the target and could not keep up
with the rest of the formation, and was finally shot down by a FW 190A
over Belgium, with eight of the ten men aboard parachuting safely.
Five of the eight came down on one side of a river and were soon
captured by the Germans, while the other three landed on the other
side of the river and were able to evade capture.

One of the three evaders was George Watt, the right waist gunner.
In 1989, he wrote a book entitled "The Comet Connection", which details
his escape.  The Comet Connection was a Belgian underground association
which rescued downed Allied airmen.   Watt was initially hidden by a
Belgian farmer, then accompanied to France, walking over the Pyrenees
mountains and into the relative safety of neutral Spain.  He made his
way to Gibraltar, where he was recovered by the RAF.

His book is especially interesting since at the time Watt was a
communist, and had fought the Nazis in the Spanish Civil War as a
member of the Lincoln brigade.  I met George and four others of his
crew at last year's 8th AF Historical Society reunion.  The 8AFHS
had also brought from Belgium several members of the Comet Connection,
and the farmer who first hid him.  While the farmer could speak almost
no English, he and a friend of mine had a quite animated discussion
about the relative merits of German versus British machine guns!

Dennis E. Sparks
SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Nov 1993 08:37:39 EST
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <hb9388@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Guy Sajer

>I am a reference librarian at the University of North Texas and I
>have a reference question from a patron that I hope you folks can
>help me with.  The patron needs any biographical information on Guy
>Sajer, the author of "The Forgotten Soldier" that has appeared since
>he published his book.  If he has died, I need to know his dates.  If
>he is still living, where is he and has he been involved in anything
>significant lately? I've checked BIOBASE and the other standard
>biographical indexes that we have here and have come up empty.
>Anybody out there have any information or any ideas on where I can
>look? I remember several posts on "The Forgotten Soldier" from a
>couple of months back but, dummy that I am, I deleted them. If you
>can find any information, please give me the source. Thanks in
>advance.
>
>Walter F. Bell
>University of North Texas Libraries
>Denton, Texas
>wbell@library.unt.edu


Walter,

Guy Sajer is deceased.  He died a few years ago.  My friend who met him
says any info that is available might be had through the
Grossdeutschland Association (soldiers who served in the Grossdeutschland
Division in World War II) in Germany.  I do not have an address.

Bear

Barrett F. Lowe                    RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, US Military Academy, West Point, NY 10996

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Nov 1993 09:36:28 CST
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: American crewmen last seen with Soviets ... and Katyn

Carol,

     I know that many American POWs were being evacuated from (formerly)
German prison camps in Poland to Odessa for embarkation back to the United
States.  Lt. Col. John H. Van Vliet, Jr., the senior American POW the
Germans took to Katyn in Spring 1943 was supposed to have been evacuated
through that port like most others.

     However, after consultation with senior British and American POWs in
his camp, they decided he was at special risk with the Soviets because of
his private opinion that the NKVD had murdered the Polish officers and
cadets at Katyn.  So, accompanied by 2 other POWs, he hopped on bicycles
and drove west to Anglo-American lines.

     Upon arriving, he immediately reported his knowledge of Katyn to
SHEAF -- Anglo-American headquarters -- and was whisked back to Washington
DC where (in the Pentagon) in May 1945 he wrote a report classified "Top
Secret" for Gen. Clayton Bissell, General Marshall's chief of intelligence.
At his own request, Van Vliet received a "gag order" not to say anything
about Katyn or his report.

     The report was "lost".  The Russian Katyn historian, Abarinov, claims
Alger Hiss was a Soviet operative and destroyed/stole the report.  In
1949 or 1950, a public hearing by concerned citizens -- including former
U.S. Ambassador to Poland Arthur Bliss Lane -- discovered that the report
had existed.  The Army couldn't find it, so Van Vliet was ordered to
write another.

     As to your father's friends, it is odd that they were "B-29" crewmen,
since (to my knowledge) no B-29s were deployed in Europe during World War
II.  It IS possible something bad may have happened to them, as Polish
people well understood/know, and I hope you will not give up your effort
to locate any of these fellows who might still be alive.

     I am finishing a masters thesis on the Katyn Massacre -- 135 pages
of text, plus 450+ endnotes, well over 100 books cited, well over 100
articles cited -- which may cause some serious controversy about the
abandonment, coverup, and betrayal of the Poles during WWII (with an
analogy to our similar treatment of the Indochinese in the 1970s).

     The Jan 93 discovery in Moscow by a Harvard researcher of a GRU
document which indicates that there were 600 more American POWs in
North Vietnam than we knew about -- see "The 1205 Document," by
Stephen Morris in the Fall 1993 issue of THE NATIONAL INTEREST -- is a
more direct similarity to our "burying" of the Katyn Massacre in the
West in the 1940s.

     I interviewed Col. Van Vliet, among others, over the telephone for
my thesis.

     Carol, would you share this/my e-mail message with any contacts you
have in Poland who might be interested?  Thank you.

Lou Coatney, Western Illinois University Library, Macomb IL 61455
coatneyl@ccmail.wiu.bgu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Nov 1993 08:07:01 PST
From:    Peter Trott <peter@PDX.NCUBE.COM>
Subject: Re: 3 Shermans?

On Thu, 4 Nov 1993, Lou Coatney wrote:

> Joe,
>
>      What was the quote from?
>
> Lou

Looks to me like dialogue from "Kelly's Heroes," the only WWII movie
I ever saw with a Hippie in a starring role.  Fun movie; I recommend
it.

Peter Trott (peter@pdx.ncube.com)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Nov 1993 10:43:59 CST
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: WANT: Info on movie...

Ugh.  I know the info, but none of it can be dredged out of the
recesses of my brain cavity...

Many warbirds calendars ago, there was a movie about the V-1 rocket
and the British attack (facing much internal opposition) against
Peenemunde.  The movie begins with the first flight tests (manned)
of the V-1 which regularly resulted in a sudden, violent loss of both
craft and pilot.  Hanna Reisch herself flies the V-1 and, although
crashes, discovers the problem to be the trim.

First, I need to figure out what the heck the title of the movie is!
:-).  Secondly, find out if someone has a movie guide that can tell
me who the producer, editor, director, writer, etc. were.  But if I
get the first part, the second part can be found.

The movie shows up with semi-infrequent irregularity on TNT and other
cable stations...

(*) Please ignore all spelling errors... :-)

(**) This movie was much more accurate than "Destination Tokyo," which
     today is amusing in its propaganda and Navy issuing lever action
     rifles to the landing party... :-)

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 6 Nov 1993 00:06:14 +0700
From:    "Peter E. Beal" <beal@NWG.NECTEC.OR.TH>
Subject: Re: USAAF 5 NOV 1943

Just a small aside which will clear up a misconception on the part of
many, especially those who admire(d) those who fought in Spain against
Franco (my uncle amongst them).   There was no "Lincoln Brigade".  There
_was_ a Lincoln Battalion, one of several which made up the XV
International Brigade.  When sufficient Americans (and Canadians) arrived
a second battalion, the Washington Battalion, was formed.  However, after
their first (or first few) real combat actions these two units were so
reduced in strength that they were merged and the surviving unit was
known as the "Lincoln-Washington Battalion".

The "upgrading" of the Lincoln Battalion to a brigade typified the U.S.
left wing's attempt to make their contribution to the Republican cause in
the Spanish Civil War larger than it actually was.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Nov 1993 11:08:01 -0500
From:    "M. Joseph Barone" <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: USAAF 5 NOV 43

From: jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM:
>   The 356th Fighter Squadron, 354th Fighter Group, arrives at Greenham Common,
> England from the U.S. with P-51's. The squadron will fly it's first mission on
> 1 Dec.

In the movie, "Memphis Belle", P-51s escort the B-17s in July, 1943.
Is this artistic license or were P-51s available by then?  I don't
recall P-51s being mentioned in Jack's "50 YA" messages in July.
--
Joe Barone
m1b@rayssd.ssd.ray.com
Crap Game: And who are those bunch of refugees over there?
 Odd Ball: Hey, it's the band!
Crap Game: The band? What do we need a band for?
 Odd Ball: Have a little faith, Crap Game, they're beautiful people!

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Nov 1993 14:43:25 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: mystery

Date sent:      Fri, 5 Nov 1993 09:24:15 EST-500
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
From:           Carol Owen Bell <CAROLB@NOVELL.UR.UTK.EDU>
Subject:        Re: mystery
Originally to:  WWII-L%UBVM.BITNET@utkvm1.utk.edu
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

> From: "Denis Ouellette, Indiana Univ" <OUELLETT@UCS.INDIANA.EDU>
>
> It would be wonderful to find out about these men.  Now the part I wonder
> about is 1. where B-29s flying over Europe in March, 1945 and 2. What
> where they doing over Poland.
> Also, I recall recent reports, based on information released from the new
> Russian government, that some US airman were held from WWII for years
> and I assume died there.  Does anyone recall the details?  Where these
> man who had crashed on missions of Eastern Europe or those that crashed
> on missions to Japan, having tried to fly to Russia or Soviet held territory?
>
    I also questioned a B-29 being over Poland. Of course, in 50
years that part could be wrong. Her father did not see the plane but
saw the men as they were parachuting down and went to their aid.
    Was Germany still being bombed at this point? Could they have
veered over Poland trying to ditch a shot-up plane?
    I couldn't understand why they would not want help getting back to
the American sector in Germany?
    Could these guys have been OSS?







Carol Bell
University of Tennessee-Knoxville
Office of University Relations
News Center


Carol,

At that point in time, the only B-29's that could have ever been
flown to Europe were those on their way to China to bomb the Japs.

There is no record of any B-29 ever having been used on a bombing
mission to Germany. Some B-29's were flown via England on a ferrying
mission to the Orient.

Also, the plane from which those airmen parachuted was either a B-24
or a B-17 that could easily have flown from Italy via Poland
towards the Soviet Union which was done, BTW, on several occasions on
shuttle-bombing missions. These missions had the purpose of bombing
targets beyond the normal operating range of American bombers and
proceeding on to Poltava in the Ukraine for refueling and rebombing
and returning to their original destination.

I personally, feel that these airmen seen parachuting from an
American bomber were part of such a shuttle mission. It is
understandable that these airmen would be interested in getting to
the Soviets as quickly as possible because, as allies, it was much
closer to get there than try to get back to the original base from
which they had taken off.

At that point in time, OSS operations were concentrated in the South
German area because of the suspicion or rumor of a "National Redoubt"
that prompted Eisenhower to shift the direction of main Western
Allied attack from the direction of Berlin toward Bavaria. This is
also another story.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Nov 1993 14:52:00 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Patton One-Upping Monty

Date sent:      Fri, 5 Nov 1993 09:41:46 EST
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
From:           Charles Reace <creace@ISD.CSC.COM>
Subject:        Re: Patton One-Upping Monty
Originally to:  WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

Regarding British drop zones at Arnhem:

While this thread (including my earlier entry) has bemoaned the British
drop zone, the fact is that they did capture the north approaches to the
bridge, and held it for much longer than the planned worst case of 4 days.

It does seem possible that they could have dropped some forces closer to
the bridge possibly, it would appear that the real problem with the plan
was in the Garden end.  Some combination of over-estimating XXX Corps'
abilitity to attack up the "one road" and an underestimation of the German
opposistion apparently gave Monty et al an unrealistic schedule.

I've read about the intelligence foul-ups regarding the allies' lack of
knowledge about the presence of the re-fitting panzer divisions near
Arnhem and the escape of the 15th Army.  But, I was wondering what was
the intelligence concerning the Germans in the XXX Corps breakout area?
Did they realize they were up against some pretty good Falschirmjaeger
divisions? (Please excuse my attempt at German spelling.)

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <creace@isd.csc.com>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057


Charles,

You raise an interesting point. There were some Fallschirmjaeger
regiments in the vicinity of Arnheim along with the 9th and 10th SS-
Panzer Divisions, and this is overlooked, in my opinion, on any post-
mortem of the MG operation.

I don't think the Allies had any inkling of what they were up
against in this operation. Up to this point, the German Army had
endured a collapse and continual retreat, which, I am certain, fed
British and American egos, regarding the fighting capabilities of the
Germans. In my opinion, this led to an overestimation of Allied
striking power and a corresponding underestimation of the German
resilience and recuperative powers. Thus, from the standpoint of the
Brits, it didn't make any difference what forces were awaiting them
at Arnheim or at any other point along that single highway. The Brits
felt that these German elements were weak and of inferior quality
anyway, and it didn't really matter what they did, because these
forces were facing crack and fresh troops from England. I can't help
but feel that this idea was in the minds of Boy Browning and Monty.

I really wonder why Eisenhower finally approved this operation, since
it this operation really violated his policy of the "Broad Front"
strategy. I can't help but feel that Churchill was involved in this
last effort by Montgomery to exert some influence on overall Allied
ground strategy.

Terry





Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Nov 1993 14:58:52 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: mystery

Date sent:      Fri, 5 Nov 1993 09:05:42 EST
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
From:           "Denis Ouellette, Indiana Univ" <OUELLETT@UCS.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject:        Re: mystery
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

It would be wonderful to find out about these men.  Now the part I wonder
about is 1. where B-29s flying over Europe in March, 1945 and 2. What
where they doing over Poland.
Also, I recall recent reports, based on information released from the new
Russian government, that some US airman were held from WWII for years
and I assume died there.  Does anyone recall the details?  Where these
man who had crashed on missions of Eastern Europe or those that crashed
on missions to Japan, having tried to fly to Russia or Soviet held territory?


Dennis,

The only thing that comes to mind here is that Americans were
routinely interned if they came into Russian control. Even some of
the Doolittle raiders were interned, but released, mainly, I think,
because they were too well known, and it would have been very
difficult to retain them without raising a stink in the U.S.

Your last question contains its answer, as well. All this is off the
top of my head, but it would seem logical for American airmen on
missions to Japan, having taken off from mainland China would have
flown to the Soviet Union, as a result of battle damage that would
prevent their safe return to base. The same could be said of those
planes taking off from Tinian or Guam, and, thus it is conceivable
that this did happen, and it would have been very easy for the
Russians to keep Allied airmen for their purposes.

Also, as you know, in the post war era, with this country conducting
overflights of Soviet territory, there were instances of these planes
being shot down with no clue as to the whereabouts or state of the
survivors.

Terry


Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Nov 1993 14:59:55 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Allied Air Campaign in Europe (fwd)

Date sent:      Fri, 5 Nov 1993 08:03:34 EST
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
From:           "Denis Ouellette, Indiana Univ" <OUELLETT@UCS.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject:        Re: Allied Air Campaign in Europe (fwd)
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

On the effectiveness of strategic bombing-
Yes, partly my mistake, I did forget to mention the role of the A bomb
in postwar defence planning.  However, I still think the role of
conventional stategic bombing in Europe was over played


Dennis,

In the light of recent research, I would agree with that. Strategic
bombing was absolutely necessary, I think, but, in the light of the
results and the cost-effectiveness of it, it was overdone.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Nov 1993 19:33:05 EST
From:    Richard Kaplan <kaplanr@CLP2.CLPGH.ORG>
Subject: V-1 Movie

Robert, If this is the movie, it was called "Operation Crossbow" and starred
George Peppard, Sophia Loren, and Anthony Quayle as an especially despicable
Gestapo plant.  Hope this helps!
And what is wrong with Destination: Tokyo? Its still better than Cockleshell
Heros, where you can see the plastic fighter models melt after they've been
blown up.

                                                Richard Kaplan
                                                Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh
                                                Definately not PC, just poor.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 6 Nov 1993 11:18:19 +0700
From:    "Peter E. Beal" <beal@NWG.NECTEC.OR.TH>
Subject: Re: mystery

On Fri, 5 Nov 1993, Terry Moore wrote:

>
> Also, as you know, in the post war era, with this country conducting
> overflights of Soviet territory, there were instances of these planes
> being shot down with no clue as to the whereabouts or state of the
> survivors.
>
It didn't end with overflights.  A friend told me that his brother, who
served in the Special Forces (or a predecesor organization) was
parachuted with his unit into the Soviet Far East with the mission of
extracting one or more prisanors held in a Russian camp there.  We did
not discuss it in detail or further, but the next time see him, I will
ask for more information.  Perhaps now that the cold war is over some of
these missions will come to the surface.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Nov 1993 22:57:40 CST
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: V-1 Movie

> Robert, If this is the movie, it was called "Operation Crossbow" and starred
> George Peppard, Sophia Loren, and Anthony Quayle as an especially despicable
> Gestapo plant.  Hope this helps!

That's the one.  Many thanks.

> And what is wrong with Destination: Tokyo? Its still better than Cockleshell
> Heros, where you can see the plastic fighter models melt after they've been
> blown up.

Cool.  I'll have to check out this film.  But were the models at least
accurate?  :-)

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 4 Nov 1993 to 5 Nov 1993
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Status: O

There are 5 messages totalling 241 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. USAAF 5 NOV 43
  2. GEN/EDU: WWII and Japanese/Japanese Americans
  3. ADMIN: Cross-posting to soc.veterans (2)
  4. INF: U.S. POW's in Russia.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Nov 1993 23:01:08 CST
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: USAAF 5 NOV 43

> From: jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM:
> >   The 356th Fighter Squadron, 354th Fighter Group, arrives at Greenham Common,
> > England from the U.S. with P-51's. The squadron will fly it's first mission on
> > 1 Dec.
>
> In the movie, "Memphis Belle", P-51s escort the B-17s in July, 1943.
> Is this artistic license or were P-51s available by then?  I don't
> recall P-51s being mentioned in Jack's "50 YA" messages in July.

P-51s were "around" but not very much in service.  P-51s did not
provide escort at that time.  Escort would have been Spitfires or
Hurricanes most of the time.  D model Mustangs also didn't appear
until 1944.

Artistic license.  In fact, the entire movie was artistic license.
It was the pilot, I believe, of the Memphis Belle who made the
comment (paraphrased) "All that stuff happened to us... In 25
missions, that is..."

The last mission was, in fact, a milk-run and as far as the big-screen
is concerned today, horrendously dull and boring.

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 6 Nov 1993 10:20:07 -0600
From:    Valerie Smith <smithv@CS.UWP.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN/EDU: WWII and Japanese/Japanese Americans

If this letter doesn't apply directly to you, does it apply to someone you
know?  If so, pass it on please!

Are you a 442nd Regimental vet, or do you know someone who is?  If so, I'm
looking for you or them!


WWII Listmembers:

My name is Valerie Smith and I am working toward my teacher's
certification in elementary education at the University of
Wisconsin-Parkside.  The focus of the program is mulitcultural education:
the inclusion of ethnic groups' perspectives and cultures throughout the
curriculum.

I am interested in interviewing or speaking with Japanese citizens or
Japanese-Americans, both armed forces veterans and civilians who lived
during 1900-1950.  Our current assignmnet is to develop a unit of study on
WWII from the Japanese-American perspective.  Our unit must include a
variety of activities in music, art, mathematics, social studies, English,
science, etc.  My project IS NOT designed to be a political statement or
to provide the technical details of the war (which side was "right, how
many died in each battle, etc.).  Rather, it is to provide students in
grades 5-9 with a general overview of the war from the Japanese and
Japanese-American perspectives.  I AM NOT A WWII EXPERT, NOR AM I TRYING
TO BE ONE, rather I am a teacher trying to bring another perspective of
the War to students in an interactive and interesting manner.

I would like to video and/or audie tape an interview and use it as one of
the activities for the students.  If this in not possible, I would at
least like to include your thoughts and feelings in other activites for
the students (narrative for a slide presentation, pictures of artwork or
clothing from that period, copies of music or recipes, etc.).

In prepartation for the interview, I've included two questionnaires:  one
for Japanese citizens, one for Japanese-Americans.  Please feel free to
add or delete questions as you deem necessary.   YOU are the expert.

I would like to conduct the interviews by Thanksgiving weekend.  This will
allow me time to edit and to develop the lesson plans around the
interview.  My final project is due December 1.  Dr. Barbara J. Shade,
Dean of the School of Education is my advisor.  If needed, you can contact
her or her assistant Darlene Safransky to verify the validity of this
project at 414-595-2569.

Thank you in advance for your assistance with this project.

Valerie Smith
internet:  smithv.cs.uwp.edu
----
QUESTIONNAIRE FOR JAPANESE-AMERICANS (questions for Japanese citizens are
starred *)

*1.     Please introduct yourself and give us some background information
about yourself during WWII.  Elaborate on some of your experiences at the
time.  For instance, can you recall things you ate, bought, wore, or can
you remember radio broadcasts you heard or movies and parties you
attended?  Were there any folk tales, songs, stories about the War that
you particularly remember?

2.      Please describe your Japanese American background.  What generation
Japanese American are you?  Include some of your family's immigration
history and feelings toward the US.

3.      How were Japanese Americans treated in your geographical area during
the War?  Can you remember things people may have said or done to you or your
family?

4.      Did you know anyone who was relocated to an internment camp?  If
it is not too difficult, please explain to the students any experiences
you had or heard of concerning the internment camps.

5.      Did you have any experiences with other Asian Americans, Italian
Americans, Hispanics, African Americans or Native American military or
civilian people during the War?  Can you describe the experiences?

*6.     What were some of your family's feelings toward the War and
fighting in the War?

*7.     Did you or anyone in your family fight in the War?  What was
your/their involvement in the War?  What were your/their family's
reactions to your/their participation in the War?

*8.     Can you describe some of your family's values toward the War?
What part, if any, did religion play in these values?  Can you remember
any sermons or church services or prayers that were said?

*9.     What influences did WWII have on your life today?  What
experiences still remain vivid?  What are some of the differences you see
in succeeding post WWII generations?

10.     How were military veterans treated in the US after WWII?  What
were the reactions of your family an people you met?

11.     How did the treatment of WWII veterans compare with Korean,
Vietnam and/or Persian Gulf War veterans?

12.     Describe the post-internment camp experiences of
Japanese-Americans you knew.  How did they resume their lives, i.e. work,
school, social interactions, etc. with other Japanese Americans and
Americans in general?

*13.    If you could leave one peice of information about WWII with
today's youth, what would it be?

--------

Thank you in advance for your help with this.  I know the letter and
questionnaire were long.


Valerie Smith
smithv.cs.uwp.edu

a teacher:  someone who is trying to make a positive impact on all of our
future by reaching a child today!

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 6 Nov 1993 12:46:34 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: ADMIN: Cross-posting to soc.veterans

>
> If this letter doesn't apply directly to you, does it apply to someone you
> know?  If so, pass it on please!
>
This prodded my memory on a subject I occasionally address. Requests like
this are also appropriate to the Usenet soc.veterans. If you have acces to
the newsgroups, be sure to post your note there as well. If you don't have
access you can still post by sending your item to:

soc-veterans@cs.utexas.edu

which will forward it for you. Be sure to mention that you can't read the
group and replies should be sent to your e-mail address.

servabo fidem,
Larry J

JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 6 Nov 1993 12:50:54 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: INF: U.S. POW's in Russia.

My mailbox melted again, by I remember seeing a request for information about
Western POWs in Russia. There is a large amount of information on U.S. POWs
in all wars of this century to be found in:

Y4.P 93/8:S.hrg.102-351 pts. 1 &2
POW/MIA policy and process :hearings before the Senate, 1992.

There's a lot of disturbing material there. Seems all the Western Allies and
conquerored countries had trouble reconciling the numbers of people the had
reason to believe were in territory controled by the Soviets with the numbers
the Sov. Army was reporting as be under their control.

Larry J

JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 6 Nov 1993 11:52:01 -0600
From:    Valerie Smith <smithv@CS.UWP.EDU>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: Cross-posting to soc.veterans

Thank you very much.  I believe I have access to Soc.veterans.  I will
check or use your suggestion.

On Sat, 6 Nov 1993, Larry & Kim Jewell wrote:

> >
> > If this letter doesn't apply directly to you, does it apply to someone you
> > know?  If so, pass it on please!
> >
> This prodded my memory on a subject I occasionally address. Requests like
> this are also appropriate to the Usenet soc.veterans. If you have acces to
> the newsgroups, be sure to post your note there as well. If you don't have
> access you can still post by sending your item to:
>
> soc-veterans@cs.utexas.edu
>
> which will forward it for you. Be sure to mention that you can't read the
> group and replies should be sent to your e-mail address.
>
> servabo fidem,
> Larry J
>
> JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
> "Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
> unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
> Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 5 Nov 1993 to 6 Nov 1993
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There are 5 messages totalling 497 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. ONLINE MODERN HISTORY REVIEW
  2. Long Lance Torpedo
  3. ITALIAN Navy Lingo
  4. Disturbing discrepancies:  WWII U.S. POWs in Soviet custody (2)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 7 Nov 1993 16:24:08 -0500
From:    Ann Okerson <ann@CNI.ORG>
Subject: ONLINE MODERN HISTORY REVIEW

Forwarded message:
>From salopek@unixg.ubc.ca Fri Nov  5 05:38:36 1993
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1993 02:37:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Marijan Salopek <salopek@unixg.ubc.ca>
Subject: ONLINE MODERN HISTORY REVIEW
To: ann@cni.org
Message-Id: <Pine.3.05.9311050205.A24896-e100000@unixg.ubc.ca>
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I should like to take this opportunity to introduce the ONLINE MODERN HISTORY
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     +1+M. C. Reed, <Investment in Railways in Britain, 1820-1844> (London:
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     +2+Reed, <Investment>, 131.



                              <BIBLIOGRAPHY>

Atkinson, Frank, "Pontiac and the Priests." <Pontiac's Rebellion>. Edited
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Wicks, Stanley; Morgan, Herbert; Bonvecchio, Alex. <The Rebellions of
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Sample text:+1+


     By canon law the crucial ingredient for a legitimate
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     future (<verba de futuro>) -- did not make a marriage,
     though some canonists held that <verba de futuro>
     followed by sexual intercourse (as consummation) amounted
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     According to the Franciscan preacher, Bernardino da Siena
     (1380-1444), a promise of marriage that was accompanied
     by a ring and consummated constituted an indissoluble
     marriage.+33+


     +33+Bernardino da Siena's sermon, as translated in <University of
Chicago Readings in Western Civilization>, vol. 5, <The Renaissance>, ed.
Eric Cochrane and Julius Kirshner (Chicago, 1986), p. 126.  On the
symbolism of the ring in Florentine marriages, see Christiane
Klapisch-Zuber, "The Griselda Complex: Dowry and Marriage Gifts in the
Quattrocento," in her <Women, Family, and Ritual Renaissance Italy>, trans.
Lydia Cochrane (Chicago, 1985), pp. 213-46.
________________

     +1+Extracted from Thomas Kuehn, "Reading Microhistory: The Example of
Giovanni and Lusanna," <The Journal of Modern History> 61 (no. 3,
September, 1989), p.520.

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------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 7 Nov 1993 19:26:49 EST
From:    "TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET" <TCWERNC%VCCSCENT.BITNET@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Long Lance Torpedo

  Mr.Todaka, Tokyo, Japan, an Imperial Japanese Navy weapons expert, stated in
  in his letter to Mr.Norman Polmar, 28 Sept 1993, that it was his opinion the
  term of NAGAYARI, (or Long Lance), probably originated in the United States
  rather than in Japan. He also stated the term of GYORAI (torpedo) was used in
  the IJN (Combined Fleet), and automatically meant the Type 93 torpedo.
  Possibly someone on our side thought up the name. Maybe someone connected
  with Samuel Eliot Morison official History of the Navy in World War II.
  The Japanese did not use nicknames of this kind with their weapons, usually.
  The torpedo was a Type 93 torpedo because it was adopted in the year 2593 of
  the traditional callender (1933). The Zero was called that because it was
  adopted in 2600 (the last digit Zero), that is, 1940.
  Later in the war some aircraft got poetic names, but not in the 1930's. We
  had names like Aircobra and Wildcat, they just had designations like Type 99
  Carrier-Borne Attack Airplane.
  U.S.Naval Technical Mission to Japan, March 1946, "Japanese Torpedoes and
  Tubes,Article 1," did not mention Long Lance by name.
  We know the Japanese called the torpedo Type 93;  the Japanese sources,
  moreover, indicated that the term NAGAYARI appears nowhere in Japanese
  studies.
  We need some American to step out of the historical shadows and say, I named
  the thing at such and such a time and it appeared first in such and such a
  study.
  QUESTION: Who gave the Long Lance its name, and why ?
  All comments are welcome !

  Carl Wernke
  TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET
  Tidewater Community College
  Portsmouth,VA

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 7 Nov 1993 18:48:05 CST
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: ITALIAN Navy Lingo

Preparatory to a 1:1200 WWII naval miniatures game, I requested a menu of
  Italian naval battle commands -- in Italian -- from the Italian Embassy
  in DC.

If anyone is interested in me posting these, let me know.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 7 Nov 1993 19:02:39 CST
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Disturbing discrepancies:  WWII U.S. POWs in Soviet custody

Shades of Katyn, Larry?

I should have this (blessed) thesis finished any day, now.

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 7 Nov 1993 21:03:22 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Disturbing discrepancies:  WWII U.S. POWs in Soviet custody

> Shades of Katyn, Larry?
>
> I should have this (blessed) thesis finished any day, now.
>
> Lou Coatney, WIU

It's a tangled mess that won't be unraveled without a sharp blade. The
agreements on exchange of liberated peoples were followed in a uniquely
Soviet style. I'm working on digitizing the Senate's reports, including
reports from military, diplomatic, and "on scene" sources. The "unaccounted
for" numbered in the millions.

Larry J

JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 6 Nov 1993 to 7 Nov 1993
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 27 messages totalling 1157 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. USAAF 8 NOV 43
  2. INF: Mailing list H-Teach
  3. USAAF 6-7 NOV 43
  4. Guy Sajer (3)
  5. mystery (3)
  6. Long Lance Torpedo (4)
  7. GEN/EDU: WWII and Japanese/Japanese Americans (3)
  8. 442nd (3)
  9. Japanese Americans, WWII, and the 442d (2)
 10. USAAF 5 NOV 43 (2)
 11. Original "Memphis Belle"
 12. INF,REF: German plans for attacking Sweden
 13. HELP ME FIND TODD PARDY (2)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 8 Nov 1993 07:06:34 -0500
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 8 NOV 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
MONDAY, 8 NOVEMBER 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt

CENTRAL PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Seventh Air Force): The 73d Fighter
Squadron, 318th Fighter Group, transfers from Mokuleia Field to Bellows Field,
Territory of Hawaii with P-47's.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 5 B-24's lay mines in the Rangoon
River during the night of 8/9 Nov.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 2 B-25's bomb the Kiungshan
airfield, scoring direct hits on 2 hangars; 6 P-40's attack Hsiangyangchiao
bridge, causing little damage.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): VIII Bomber Command Mission 125: 2
B-17's drop 312,000 leaflets over Paris at 0038-0042 hours.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Italy, 81 B-17's bomb the
Turin ball bearing works, marshalling yard, and nearby motor and aircraft
engine works; P-38's provide escort as far N as Imperia.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): Weather cancels all XII Air Support
Command missions except fighter patrols. In Italy, Northwest African Tactical
Bomber Force (NATBF) bombers and Royal Air Force (RAF) Desert Air Force (DAF)
fighters fly only 6 missions, hitting gun positions along the battleline,
vehicles W of the Sangro River, and trains at Civitanova and Pescara.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): On Bougainville
Island in the Solomon Islands, 22 B-24's bomb Bonis airfield; 6 B-25's hit
targets of opportunity at the month of the Laruma River and NW of Torokina
while 6 others bomb Kieta.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): B-24's on armed
reconnaissance bomb Garove Island in the Bismarck Archipelago and hit Kaimana,
New Guinea.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 8 Nov 1993 07:00:20 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: INF: Mailing list H-Teach

Forwarded for those who might be interested:

Date:     Mon, 8 Nov 1993 00:01:10 -0600
Sender: H-Net Teaching History discussion list
              <@VM.CC.PURDUE.EDU:H-TEACH@UICVM>

Topics of the day:
  2. Using H-Teach
 -----------------------------

Date:    Sun, 7 Nov 1993 15:28:51 CST
From:    "h-teach co-moderator (Constantin Fasolt)" <icon@MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU>
Subject: Using H-Teach

Moderator's Note (CF): I have received a request to explain to the list how
to subscribe to H-TEACH, how to unsubscribe, how to change distribution
settings, etc. Here are a few pointers. If you already know how to
deal with LISTSERV, you can ignore this message.

(1) If you kept a copy of the welcome letter you received when you
first signed up to H-TEACH, read it. It contains basic information and
explains how you can obtain more detailed information.

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umbrella of H-NET. Messages to and from the list are handled by a
program called LISTSERV and the computers at the University of
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with other members of the list, you send messages to
H-TEACH@UICVM on bitnet, or to H-TEACH@UICVM.UIC.EDU on internet
(bitnet and internet being two originally separate computer networks
that are beginning to look like one network with different addresses
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(6) Since LISTSERV REFCARD explains the commands, I do not need to explain
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        SUBSCRIBE H-TEACH your personal name, your institution

In order to obtain a list of the names and email addresses of the
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LISTSERV@UICVM:

        REVIEW H-TEACH

In the hope that this is useful to some of you,

Constantin Fasolt                                 Department of History
H-Teach Co-Moderator                              University of Chicago
H-Teach List address: H-Teach@uicvm               1126 East 59th Street
Personal address: icon@midway.uchicago.edu        Chicago, IL 60637
              or: c-fasolt@uchicago.edu           (312) 702 7935

 -----------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 8 Nov 1993 07:04:37 -0500
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 6-7 NOV 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

SATURDAY, 6 NOVEMBER 1943

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ANTISUBMARINE OPERATIONS (First Air Force): The ground echelon of the 23d
Antisubmarine Squadron (Heavy), I Bomber Command, at Smoky Hill AAFld, Kansas
is disbanded. The air echelon is at Edinburgh Field, Trinidad with a detachment
at Zandery Field, Surinam with B-25's.

CENTRAL PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Seventh Air Force): Advanced HQ,
Seventh Air Force, is set up on Funafuti Atoll in the Ellice Islands to
provide a HQ closer to targets in the Gilbert and Marshall Islands. VII Air
Force Service Command and VII Bomber Command also establish forward echelons
at Funafuti. Landing fields are being built on Baker Island; and Nukufetau and
Nanumea Islands in the Ellice Islands, to be used, along with existing fields
at Canton Island in the Phoenix Islands and Funafuti Atoll in the Ellice
Islands as operational bases for attacks on Tarawa Atoll and Makin Island in
the Gilbert Islands; Mille Atoll in the Caroline Islands; Maloelap and Jaluit
Atolls in the Marshall Islands and Nauru Island. These operations will mark the
assumption of the offensive by the Seventh Air Force and will play a
conspicuous role in the invasion and occupation of the Gilbert and Marshall
Islands.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 2 B-24's lay mines in the Rangoon
River during the night of 6/7 Nov.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): VIII Bomber Command Mission 123. 2
B-17's drop 440,000 leaflets over Paris at 0241-0250 hours.
  The 36th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), Eighth Air Force, arrives at
Alconbury, England from the U.S. The squadron will begin flying CARPETBAGGER
missions in Dec 43.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): HQ IX Bomber Command arrives at Marks
Hall, England from Bengasi, Libya.
  HQ 315th Troop Carrier Group and it's 34th Troop Carrier Squadron transfer
from Aldermaston to Welford, England. The 34th is operating from Blida,
Algeria with C-47's.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Italy, 4 B-17's attack the
Fiora River bridge, 3 attack a bridge N of Orbetello, and 11 P-38's attack a
bridge S of Orvieto. P-38's escorted by others, hit approaches to a bridge
near Monte Molino, and the escorting fighters afterwards strafe Tarquinia
Airfield, a train N of Civitavecchia, and vehicles between Montefiascone and
Vetralla.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, XII Air Support Command
fighter-bombers strike gun positions, bridges, and roads around Mignano,
vehicles N of Cassino, and a train N of Aquino airfield. Other Northwest
African Tactical Air Force (NATAF) fighters attack numerous road and rail
transport targets through-out Italy N of the battleline and in Yugoslavia.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, 9 B-25's with US Navy fighter support hit the airfield and harbor of
Buka Island. On Bougainville Island, 1 B-25 bombs Kieta and attacks Tinputs
Harbor; 7 barges and small vessels are claimed sunk; 24 B-25's with fighter
support follow US Navy (USN) dive bombers and fighters in an attack on Kara
Airfield; and 17 B-24's bomb Bonis Airfield.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): P-40's hit Gasmata
Island off the south coast of New Britain Island. In New Guinea, enemy
airplanes attack Nadzab, Dumpu, and Finschhafen but cause no major damage.
  The 17th Reconnaissance Squadron (Bombardment) and 82d Reconnaissance
Squadron (Fighter), 71st Reconnaissance Group, arrive at Milne Bay, New Guinea
from the U.S. with B-25's and P-39's respectively. The squadrons will fly their
first missions on 28 Jan 44 and 27 Nov respectively.

SUNDAY, 7 NOVEMBER 1943

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 2 B-25's pound Amoy harbor, claiming
several boats sunk. 6 P-40's attack a bridge at Hsiangyangchiao, causing only
minor damage.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): VIII Bomber Command Mission 124.
Three targets in Germany are hit without loss. Poor weather restricts
operations.
  1. 53 of 59 B-17's bomb the Wesel industrial area at 1124-1125 hours; 4
B-17's are damaged; casualties are 1 KIA and 2 WIA.
  2. 60 B-17's are dispatched to the industrial area at Duren; 37 hit the
primary target at 1114 hours and 20 hit Randerath, the secondary target, at
1114-1125 hours; 2 B-17's are damaged.
  3. 2 of 3 B-17 pathfinders escort the B-17's dispatched to Duren but an Oboe
PFF failure resulted in the bombs being widely scattered.
  The bombers are escorted by 283 P-47's; they claim 1-0-0 Luftwaffe aircraft;
6 P-47's are lost; casualties are 6 MIA.
  HQ 20th Combat Bombardment Wing (Heavy) transfers from Hethel to Hardwick,
England.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 200+ B-26's dispatched to attack
airfields at Montdidier and Meulan-Les Mureaux, France are forced to abort the
mission because of bad weather. The B-26's are escorted by 54 P-38's and 49
P-47's of the Eighth Air Force; 2 P-38's are lost.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Bad weather cancels heavy bomber
operations.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): Northwest African Tactical Bomber
Force (NATBF) bombers hit gun position along the British Eighth and US Fifth
Army fronts, shipping at Ancona, Italy harbor, and the town of Ulcinj,
Yugoslavia; Durazzo, Albania is bombed at night. XII Air Support Command and
other fighters of the Northwest African Tactical Air Force (NATAF) hit the
harbor and shipping at Split and a train near Metkovic, Yugoslavia, and attack
bridges, road junctions, town area, and trucks in the Mignano-Cassino and
Pontecorvo, Italy. areas.
  The 10th Troop Carrier Squadron, 60th Troop Carrier Group, transfer from
Gela to Gerbini, Sicily with C-47's.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, 8 B-25's bomb barge concentration and beach targets in Atsinima Bay.
21 B-24's pound the airfield on Buka Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): On New Britain
Island, 25 B-24's, with an escort of 60+ P-38's, bomb Rapopo airstrip; a large
force of enemy fighters intercepts the formations and in the ensuing battle 5
P-38's are lost; US airplanes claim 20+ fighters shot down and several more
destroyed on the ground. In New Guinea, 9 B-25's bomb Wewak and 40+ others
turn back when the fighter escort is intercepted by airplanes over Nadzab;
enemy aircraft attack Nadzab and Bena Bena; 16 US aircraft are destroyed or
damaged by the raids but 14 airplanes are shot down by US fighters.
  HQ 71st Reconnaissance Group arrives at Port Moresby, New Guinea from the
U.S.
  The 529th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 380th Bombardment Group (Heavy),
transfers from Manbulloo to Long Strip, Australia with B-24's.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 8 Nov 1993 06:57:52 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Guy Sajer

Date sent:      Fri, 5 Nov 1993 08:37:39 EST
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
From:           Lowe Barrett MAJ <hb9388@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject:        Re: Guy Sajer
Originally to:  WWII-L@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

>I am a reference librarian at the University of North Texas and I
>have a reference question from a patron that I hope you folks can
>help me with.  The patron needs any biographical information on Guy
>Sajer, the author of "The Forgotten Soldier" that has appeared since
>he published his book.  If he has died, I need to know his dates.  If
>he is still living, where is he and has he been involved in anything
>significant lately? I've checked BIOBASE and the other standard
>biographical indexes that we have here and have come up empty.
>Anybody out there have any information or any ideas on where I can
>look? I remember several posts on "The Forgotten Soldier" from a
>couple of months back but, dummy that I am, I deleted them. If you
>can find any information, please give me the source. Thanks in
>advance.
>
>Walter F. Bell
>University of North Texas Libraries
>Denton, Texas
>wbell@library.unt.edu


Walter,

Guy Sajer is deceased.  He died a few years ago.  My friend who met him
says any info that is available might be had through the
Grossdeutschland Association (soldiers who served in the Grossdeutschland
Division in World War II) in Germany.  I do not have an address.

Bear

Barrett F. Lowe                    RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, US Military Academy, West Point, NY 10996







Walter,

I can supply the address of the Grossdeutschland Veterans
Association, as I have many contacts within that organization. The
head of it is Peter Frantz, and I will have to supply you his address,
and others, if you are interested, who can supply you with the
required info. I don't know,however, if they speak English, but I am
certain that your letter would be answered. I will get back to you.

Terry


Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 8 Nov 1993 07:02:48 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: mystery

Date sent:      Sat, 6 Nov 1993 11:18:19 +0700
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
From:           "Peter E. Beal" <beal@NWG.NECTEC.OR.TH>
Subject:        Re: mystery
Originally to:  World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

On Fri, 5 Nov 1993, Terry Moore wrote:

>
> Also, as you know, in the post war era, with this country conducting
> overflights of Soviet territory, there were instances of these planes
> being shot down with no clue as to the whereabouts or state of the
> survivors.
>
It didn't end with overflights.  A friend told me that his brother, who
served in the Special Forces (or a predecesor organization) was
parachuted with his unit into the Soviet Far East with the mission of
extracting one or more prisanors held in a Russian camp there.  We did
not discuss it in detail or further, but the next time see him, I will
ask for more information.  Perhaps now that the cold war is over some of
these missions will come to the surface.


Peter,

That is fascinating! Please post any additonal info on this, as you
find it.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 8 Nov 1993 07:27:28 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: Guy Sajer

In Walter Bell's message of  5 Nov 1993 at 1032 CST, he write:

> >I am a reference librarian at the University of North Texas and I
> >have a reference question from a patron that I hope you folks can
> >help me with.  The patron needs any biographical information on Guy
> >Sajer, the author of "The Forgotten Soldier" that has appeared since
> >he published his book.  If he has died, I need to know his dates.  If
> >Walter F. Bell
> >University of North Texas Libraries
>
>
> Walter,
>
> Guy Sajer is deceased.  He died a few years ago.  My friend who met him
> says any info that is available might be had through the
> Grossdeutschland Association (soldiers who served in the Grossdeutschland
> Division in World War II) in Germany.  I do not have an address.
>
> Bear
>
> Barrett F. Lowe                    RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!

Hi Walter, Bear and whoever else may be interested,

Try contacting:

        Harald Fuchs & Hans Schardt

Traditionsgemeinschaft Panzer Korps ,,GD" u. Brandenburg Verba"nde
         Lindenstrasse 10
         2170 Henimoor     Germany

They are in charge of the veterans organization of former GD troops.

Good Hunting,

              Bill Huber
              whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 8 Nov 1993 09:08:53 EST
From:    Charles Reace <creace@ISD.CSC.COM>
Subject: Re: Long Lance Torpedo

> Later in the war some aircraft got poetic names, but not in the 1930's. We
> had names like Aircobra and Wildcat, they just had designations like Type 99
> Carrier-Borne Attack Airplane.

I was under the impression from a few things I've read/heard that the
British "named" most of the US aircraft and amored fighting vehicles.
Is this true, or did a few/some/most/all of the nicknames in fact originate
in the US?

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <creace@isd.csc.com>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 8 Nov 1993 08:37:31 CST
From:    Rod Flancher <rodf2@CFSMO.HONEYWELL.COM>
Subject: Re: mystery

>>>>> On Fri, 5 Nov 1993 14:58:52 GMT-6, Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU> said:

Terry> Dennis,
Terry> The only thing that comes to mind here is that Americans were
Terry> routinely interned if they came into Russian control. Even some of
Terry> the Doolittle raiders were interned, but released, mainly, I think,
Terry> because they were too well known, and it would have been very
Terry> difficult to retain them without raising a stink in the U.S.


        This is my first posting, and am fairly new to the WWII list.
    Thanks to all the information that floated around the world regarding
    Doolitle's death, and not knowing anything about the raid, I found
    a wonderful book that detailed the raid from the plan's conception
    through the last POW returning home. Correct me if I am wrong, but
    this book stated that the raiders who were interned in Russia,
    actually escaped from Russia through present day Iran, via some
    sort of black market trader. The book states that they wrote a
    letter to Stalin requesting to be released, or at least a job and
    to be moved to a warmer climate, the second of which was granted.

        This book, which I unfortunately don't remember the title, or
    author off hand (I'd have to return to the library to get it) was
    a wonderful book that I would recommend to anyone who wants to
    know about the Doolittle raid. It detailed every plane and person
    from the carrier through the end of their ordeal. If anyone wants
    the information, I'd be glad to go back and get it....

        Rod


        -------------------------------------------------------------------------
        "The only thing God didn't do to Job
         was to give him a computer".        - I.F.Stone

        rodf2@cfsmo.honeywell.com
        -------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 8 Nov 1993 09:34:11 EST
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: GEN/EDU: WWII and Japanese/Japanese Americans

On Sat, 6 Nov 1993 10:20:07 -0600 Valerie Smith said:
>Are you a 442nd Regimental vet, or do you know someone who is?  If so, I'm
>looking for you or them!
>
>. . . .  Our current assignmnet is to develop a unit of study on
>WWII from the Japanese-American perspective.  Our unit must include a
>variety of activities in music, art, mathematics, social studies, English,
>science, etc.  My project. . . . is to provide students in
>grades 5-9 with a general overview of the war from the Japanese and
>Japanese-American perspectives.  I AM NOT A WWII EXPERT, NOR AM I TRYING
>TO BE ONE, rather I am a teacher trying to bring another perspective of
>the War to students in an interactive and interesting manner.

You might consider a showing of the film =Go for Broke=, which covers the
activities of the 442nd from formation through return to the U.S. and which
shows clearly the problems facing the men of the unit & the prejudice with
which they were initially greeted.  I have the impression that the film
is pretty factual, although I am no expert & Hollywood often gets things
wrong (-:

ken koester
maint2@ers.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 8 Nov 1993 15:37:57 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@NAT2.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: Long Lance Torpedo

On Mon, 8 Nov 1993, Charles Reace wrote:

> I was under the impression from a few things I've read/heard that the
> British "named" most of the US aircraft and amored fighting vehicles.
> Is this true, or did a few/some/most/all of the nicknames in fact originate
> in the US?

The British preferred to select their own names. The results were not
always inspiring, e.g. the F4F Wildcat became the 'Martlet' in British
service, the TBF Avenger became 'Tarpon', the SB2U Vindicator became
'Chesapeake', and the A-20 'Havoc' became 'Boston'. Later some of the
names were synchronized; the British adopted most of the American names.
There were exceptions; the P-51 kept the British name of 'Mustang' instead
of the older 'Apache' (still used for the A-36).

The 'naming' of bought equipment was a necessity, because the British did
not have a 'numeric' designation system.

Emmanuel Gustin                                             Lucus a non lucendo
Physics Department, University of Antwerp, Belgium                Quintillianus
gustin@uia.ac.be                       /---------------------------------------
-------------------------------------/         FROM StdTexts IMPORT Disclaimer;

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 8 Nov 1993 09:35:57 CST
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Long Lance Torpedo

>   Later in the war some aircraft got poetic names, but not in the 1930's. We
>   had names like Aircobra and Wildcat, they just had designations like Type 99
>   Carrier-Borne Attack Airplane.

>   QUESTION: Who gave the Long Lance its name, and why ?
>   All comments are welcome !

In today's world, all weapons, aircraft, ships, etc. are given names
based on a lettering scheme.

All (former) Soviet fighters are given a name beginning with F (Foxbat,
Fulcrum, etc.) and all Soviet bombers are named with B (Backfire, Bear,
etc.)

This makes it very easy for someone to understand they are approaching
a Soviet fighter based on its name even if you've never heard of it
before -- you don't need to know the manufacturer, model number, etc.
It's a very easy thing to deal with.

I don't know if this was a common technique during WWII, but there are
appearances that similar naming schemes were at least roughly in effect
(Japanese bombers seemed to have female names, fighters, males ones...)

Could Japanese torpedoes simply have a naming scheme beginning with L
for identification purposes?

Considering how the military likes to acronym and rename everything, it
wouldn't surprise me a bit.  :-)

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 8 Nov 1993 10:53:59 -0500
From:    "Sidney W. Kitchel" <kitchel@OCTOPUS.DPSI.COM>
Subject: Re: mystery

Rod Flancher writes:
|->
|-> >>>>> On Fri, 5 Nov 1993 14:58:52 GMT-6, Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
|-> said:
|->
|-> Terry> Dennis,
|-> Terry> The only thing that comes to mind here is that Americans were
|-> Terry> routinely interned if they came into Russian control. Even some of
|-> Terry> the Doolittle raiders were interned, but released, mainly, I think,
|-> Terry> because they were too well known, and it would have been very
|-> Terry> difficult to retain them without raising a stink in the U.S.
|->
|->
|->         This is my first posting, and am fairly new to the WWII list.
|->     Thanks to all the information that floated around the world regarding
|->     Doolitle's death, and not knowing anything about the raid, I found
|->     a wonderful book that detailed the raid from the plan's conception
|->     through the last POW returning home. Correct me if I am wrong, but
|->     this book stated that the raiders who were interned in Russia,
|->     actually escaped from Russia through present day Iran, via some
|->     sort of black market trader. The book states that they wrote a
|->     letter to Stalin requesting to be released, or at least a job and
|->     to be moved to a warmer climate, the second of which was granted.

        More specifically they asked to be able to use their knowledge
about aircraft in some way to help the Soviets.

|->         This book, which I unfortunately don't remember the title, or
|->     author off hand (I'd have to return to the library to get it) was
|->     a wonderful book that I would recommend to anyone who wants to
|->     know about the Doolittle raid. It detailed every plane and person
|->     from the carrier through the end of their ordeal. If anyone wants
|->     the information, I'd be glad to go back and get it....

        I think you are referring to one of the books by Col. Carroll
Glines. The one I have read was called _The Doolittle Raid_, I think.
He also helped Gen. Doolittle write his autobiography, which I just
happen to be reading now. Jimmy Doolittle had an amazing and full
life. Very few of us will have the luck to be in as many crucial
situations and have so many opportunities to serve our country and a
loved one -- in this case, aviation.

                                                        --Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel           kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 8 Nov 1993 11:09:02 -0500
From:    "Sidney W. Kitchel" <kitchel@OCTOPUS.DPSI.COM>
Subject: Re: GEN/EDU: WWII and Japanese/Japanese Americans

Ken Koester writes:
|->
|-> On Sat, 6 Nov 1993 10:20:07 -0600 Valerie Smith said:
|-> >Are you a 442nd Regimental vet, or do you know someone who is?  If so, I'm
|-> >looking for you or them!
|-> >
|-> >. . . .  Our current assignmnet is to develop a unit of study on
|-> >WWII from the Japanese-American perspective.  Our unit must include a
|-> >variety of activities in music, art, mathematics, social studies, English,
|-> >science, etc.  My project. . . . is to provide students in
|-> >grades 5-9 with a general overview of the war from the Japanese and
|-> >Japanese-American perspectives.  I AM NOT A WWII EXPERT, NOR AM I TRYING
|-> >TO BE ONE, rather I am a teacher trying to bring another perspective of
|-> >the War to students in an interactive and interesting manner.
|->
|-> You might consider a showing of the film =Go for Broke=, which covers the
|-> activities of the 442nd from formation through return to the U.S. and which
|-> shows clearly the problems facing the men of the unit & the prejudice with
|-> which they were initially greeted.  I have the impression that the film
|-> is pretty factual, although I am no expert & Hollywood often gets things
|-> wrong (-:

        This is one of my favorite WWII movies. There is a sequence of
scenes showing the 442nd in Italy. In one scene, a company of Nisei
overrun a German strongpoint. A German officer is surrendering and
finds himself at the business ends of several M-1s each held by very
Japanese looking GI. He raises his hands and remarks: "I thought you
were on our side."
        If any unit deserves a good movie about it, the 442nd
Regimental Combat Team is it!!

                                                        --Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel           kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 8 Nov 1993 11:18:30 CST
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: 442nd

Did I tell you folks about my son and his teacher (who was a 442nd daughter)?

Anybody want to hear it?

Lou

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 8 Nov 1993 12:36:12 EST
From:    Cathy Lewis <NASSE050@SIVM.BITNET>
Subject: Japanese Americans, WWII, and the 442d

I would recommend that you contact Tom Crouch, who is the Aeronautics Dept
Chair at the National Air and Space Museum. Tom was the chief curator of "A
More Perfect Union," the National Museum of American History exhibit on the
internment of the Japanese during WWII. He maintains close contacts with
members of the 442d and could point you in the direction of educational
materials on the topic. I don't believe that he has an e-mail address, but you
can reach him by phone at 202/357-2515.

Cathleen S. Lewis (NASSE050@sivm.si.edu)
National Air and Space Museum
Smithsonian Institution

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 8 Nov 1993 12:14:49 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Long Lance Torpedo

Date sent:      Mon, 8 Nov 1993 09:08:53 EST
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
From:           Charles Reace <creace@ISD.CSC.COM>
Subject:        Re: Long Lance Torpedo
Originally to:  WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

> Later in the war some aircraft got poetic names, but not in the 1930's. We
> had names like Aircobra and Wildcat, they just had designations like Type 99
> Carrier-Borne Attack Airplane.

I was under the impression from a few things I've read/heard that the
British "named" most of the US aircraft and amored fighting vehicles.
Is this true, or did a few/some/most/all of the nicknames in fact originate
in the US?

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <creace@isd.csc.com>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057


Charles,

To the best of my knowledge, we named almost all our aircraft and
fighting vehicles. The only exceptions that come to mind are the P-38
Lightning and the P-51 Mustang, but I am certain there are others,
but none come to mind.

I have read quite a bit about fighting vehicles, but I don't remember
coming across anything that specifically related to naming our
vehicles by way of the Brits. If you run across anything to the
contrary, please post.

Thanks.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 8 Nov 1993 12:24:14 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN/EDU: WWII and Japanese/Japanese Americans

Date sent:      Mon, 8 Nov 1993 11:09:02 -0500
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
From:           "Sidney W. Kitchel" <kitchel@OCTOPUS.DPSI.COM>
Subject:        Re: GEN/EDU: WWII and Japanese/Japanese Americans
Originally to:  WWII-L@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

Ken Koester writes:
|->
|-> On Sat, 6 Nov 1993 10:20:07 -0600 Valerie Smith said:
|-> >Are you a 442nd Regimental vet, or do you know someone who is?  If so, I'm
|-> >looking for you or them!
|-> >
|-> >. . . .  Our current assignmnet is to develop a unit of study on
|-> >WWII from the Japanese-American perspective.  Our unit must include a
|-> >variety of activities in music, art, mathematics, social studies, English,
|-> >science, etc.  My project. . . . is to provide students in
|-> >grades 5-9 with a general overview of the war from the Japanese and
|-> >Japanese-American perspectives.  I AM NOT A WWII EXPERT, NOR AM I TRYING
|-> >TO BE ONE, rather I am a teacher trying to bring another perspective of
|-> >the War to students in an interactive and interesting manner.
|->
|-> You might consider a showing of the film =Go for Broke=, which covers the
|-> activities of the 442nd from formation through return to the U.S. and which
|-> shows clearly the problems facing the men of the unit & the prejudice with
|-> which they were initially greeted.  I have the impression that the film
|-> is pretty factual, although I am no expert & Hollywood often gets things
|-> wrong (-:

        This is one of my favorite WWII movies. There is a sequence of
scenes showing the 442nd in Italy. In one scene, a company of Nisei
overrun a German strongpoint. A German officer is surrendering and
finds himself at the business ends of several M-1s each held by very
Japanese looking GI. He raises his hands and remarks: "I thought you
were on our side."
        If any unit deserves a good movie about it, the 442nd
Regimental Combat Team is it!!

                                                        --Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel           kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121


Sidney,

I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment of the movie. It has been
many years since I have seen this one. Do you know if it is out on
video?

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 8 Nov 1993 14:12:18 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <kc5318@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: USAAF 5 NOV 43

>> From: jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM:
>> >   The 356th Fighter Squadron, 354th Fighter Group, arrives at Greenham Com
mo
>n,
>> > England from the U.S. with P-51's. The squadron will fly it's first missio
n
>on
>> > 1 Dec.
>>
>> In the movie, "Memphis Belle", P-51s escort the B-17s in July, 1943.
>> Is this artistic license or were P-51s available by then?  I don't
>> recall P-51s being mentioned in Jack's "50 YA" messages in July.
>
>P-51s were "around" but not very much in service.  P-51s did not
>provide escort at that time.  Escort would have been Spitfires or
>Hurricanes most of the time.  D model Mustangs also didn't appear
>until 1944.
>
>Artistic license.  In fact, the entire movie was artistic license.
>It was the pilot, I believe, of the Memphis Belle who made the
>comment (paraphrased) "All that stuff happened to us... In 25
>missions, that is..."
>
>The last mission was, in fact, a milk-run and as far as the big-screen
>is concerned today, horrendously dull and boring.
>
>--
>Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
>rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force
>

Robert,
     The last mission may have been a milk run, but William Wyler's movie of
it (WWII one, not the modern one by his daughter) is not dull or boring. In
fact,
it has some terrific pictures of damaged B-17s coming in to land, even from a
milk run.  I recommend it over the recent version.  It gets shown every once in
a while on educational channels.

                                                      LTC Con Crane
                                                      USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 8 Nov 1993 14:39:10 EST
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <hb9388@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Guy Sajer

Bill,

Thanks for the address.  I'll keep it for future reference.

Barry

Barrett F. Lowe                    RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, US Military Academy, West Point, NY 10996

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 8 Nov 1993 14:34:15 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: 442nd

In your message of  8 Nov 1993 at 1325 CST, you write:
> Did I tell you folks about my son and his teacher (who was a 442nd daughter)?
>
> Anybody want to hear it?
>
> Lou
>

I'd love to hear anything about the 442nd RCT.  Each time I learn
something about that unit the Websters definition of "astonishing"
changes.

Bill Huber
whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 8 Nov 1993 14:37:54 CST
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: USAAF 5 NOV 43

> >
> >Artistic license.  In fact, the entire movie was artistic license.
> >It was the pilot, I believe, of the Memphis Belle who made the
> >comment (paraphrased) "All that stuff happened to us... In 25
> >missions, that is..."
> >
> >The last mission was, in fact, a milk-run and as far as the big-screen
> >is concerned today, horrendously dull and boring.
>
> Robert,
>      The last mission may have been a milk run, but William Wyler's movie of
> it (WWII one, not the modern one by his daughter) is not dull or boring. In
> fact,
> it has some terrific pictures of damaged B-17s coming in to land, even from a
> milk run.  I recommend it over the recent version.  It gets shown every once in
> a while on educational channels.

It's not boring to us.

But in Today's Hollywood, you wouldn't be able to make it because it
doesn't have mass appeal (it doesn't have a lot of explosions or
Arnold Schwartzenegger shooting up 400 Germans with just a zip gun :-).

I'm just happy that the documentary was made when it was.  That
guarantees it exists.

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 8 Nov 1993 14:57:24 CST
From:    "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer,
         Tim A." <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Japanese Americans, WWII, and the 442d

If anyone is interested, I know a reenactor who commands the reenacting
34th Infantry Dvision.  He is Japanese-American, and I believe a family
member like his dad or uncle served in the 442nd.  He reenacts dressed
as a member of the 442nd, and has participated with reunions of the
442nd.  I believe he lives in Westmont, IL (Chicago area).  I anyone
would like a specific address, please contact me directly.  Thanks, Tim

PS--this was the same guy who walked into a McDonald's after a Pacific
Theater reenactment in a Japanese uniform and received the comment from
another reenactor---"I hate holdouts!".  I thought it was funny.

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 8 Nov 1993 15:30:02 CST
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Original "Memphis Belle"

Wyler's original film is on video for about $6 on low-cost stands.

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 8 Nov 1993 15:53:23 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: 442nd

Date sent:      Mon, 8 Nov 1993 11:18:30 CST
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
From:           Lou Coatney <MSLRC%ECNUXA.BITNET@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
Subject:        442nd
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

Did I tell you folks about my son and his teacher (who was a 442nd daughter)?

Anybody want to hear it?

Lou,

I always want to hear stories. Let'er rip!

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 8 Nov 1993 16:02:15 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: INF,REF: German plans for attacking Sweden

Asad,

I will be posting some info for you tomorrow morning dealing with
German plans to attack Sweden. I am sorry for the delay, but have
been terribly busy.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 8 Nov 1993 23:47:14 UTC
From:    Crazy Harry Anyone got a match? <an47340@ANON.PENET.FI>
Subject: HELP ME FIND TODD PARDY

I know it is unusual to post such requests to the mailing list, but does
anyone know the e-mail address of TODD PARDY?  He is supposedly one of the
top experts in the field of WWII technology.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
To find out more about the anon service, send mail to help@anon.penet.fi.
Due to the double-blind, any mail replies to this message will be anonymized,
and an anonymous id will be allocated automatically. You have been warned.
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------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 8 Nov 1993 21:40:06 -0330
From:    CHILL <tpardy@MORGAN.UCS.MUN.CA>
Subject: Re: HELP ME FIND TODD PARDY

To Crazy Harry,


I'm Todd Pardy you can email me at tpardy@morgan.ucs.mun.ca, as for the
expert part, I'm far from that Crazy Harry. Email me and we'll talk.


       From the bottom it looks like a steep incline, from the top
      another down hill slope of mine...but I know the equilibrium's
                                 there !
                        Mike Patton of Faith No More


On Mon, 8 Nov 1993, Crazy Harry Anyone got a match? wrote:

> I know it is unusual to post such requests to the mailing list, but does
> anyone know the e-mail address of TODD PARDY?  He is supposedly one of the
> top experts in the field of WWII technology.
>

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 7 Nov 1993 to 8 Nov 1993
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 16 messages totalling 465 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. USAAF 9 NOV 43
  2. German plans for attacking Sweden during WW2
  3. INF: Combat! (3)
  4. US tank naming (3)
  5. GEN/EDU: WWII and Japanese/Japanese Americans
  6. British and names
  7. USAAF 5 NOV 43
  8. West Point Library On-Line (repeat)
  9. GEN: "Crystal Night" (2)
 10. CAP - question
 11. <No subject given>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 9 Nov 1993 07:03:13 -0500
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 9 NOV 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt

CENTRAL PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Seventh Air Force): HQ 11th Bombardment
Group (Heavy) transfers from Hickam Field, Territory of Hawaii to Funafuti
Atoll in the Ellice Islands.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Italy, B-24's attack the
Villarperosa ball-bearing works at Turin and B-17's hit the Genoa-Ansaldo
steel works. P-38's provide escort.
  The 441st, 442d, 443d and 444th Bombardment Squadrons (Medium), 320th
Bombardment Group (Medium), transfer from El Bathan, Tunisia to Decimomannu,
Sardinia with B-26's.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, the Northwest African
Tactical Bomber Force (NATBF) bombs Formia and Itri as a diversion to the
naval bombardment of Formia and Gaeta. XlI Air Support Command fighter-bombers
attack roads and bridges in the Mignano-Ceprano area while other Northwest
African Tactical Air Force (NATAF) fighter-bombers hit shipping in the harbor
at Split, Yugoslavia and rail targets in the Rome-La Spezia area and vessels,
radio stations, and gun emplacements off the coast of Albania.
  The 12th Troop Carrier Squadron, 60th Troop Carrier Group, transfers from
Gela to Gerbini, Sicly with C-47's. The squadron has been operating from
Comiso since 22 Oct.
  The 379th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 310th Bombardment Group (Medium),
transfers from Menzel Temime, Tunisia to Philippeville, Algeria with B-25's.
The squadron is operating from El Adem, Libya.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, B-25's hit the airfield on Buka Island.  On Bougainville Island,
B-25's bomb Kieta and 20+ B-24's pound Kara and Kahili airfields. P-39's join
US Navy aircraft in strikes on Kara airfield and the airfield on Ballale
Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea,40+
B-25's and A-20's, escorted by P-38's and P-47's, pound the airfield at
Alexishafen, destroying at least 12 enemy airplanes; US fighters claim
destruction of 10-15 interceptors in combat; other fighters claim 20+ aircraft
shot down over Sek Harbor, the Markham River Valley, and Lae. On New Britain
Island in the Bismarck Archipelago, B-25's bomb a fuel dump and shipping in
the Rein Bay area, and P-40's bomb dumps on Gasmata Island. B-24's on patrol
claim sinking of a destroyer near Kavieng, New Ireland Island.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 9 Nov 1993 07:09:59 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: German plans for attacking Sweden during WW2

Asad,

One other question, where did you hear or read of the recent
discovery of the invasion plans of Sweden?

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 9 Nov 1993 09:43:24 -0500
From:    "M. Joseph Barone" <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: INF: Combat!

While cable surfing last night, am image of Lt. Hanley flickered past
my TV screen.  I backed up and discovered that Combat! was on.  Anyway,
I searched through the TVGuide and found that Combat! is on Nostalgia
Channel every night at 10PM Eastern.  This is probably only useful to
the US and Canadian members of this list (Sorry, Mick!).  I plan on
buying some videotapes and archiving tonight!  Enjoy!
--
Joe Barone
m1b@rayssd.ssd.ray.com
   Kelly: Odd Ball! Just how the hell do you figure on moving
          through enemy terrain with a column a mile long?
Odd Ball: Easy! We can fight! We have an army!
 Big Joe: Those freaks?! That's not an army -- it's a circus!
Odd Ball: Take it easy, Big Joe!  Some of them are sensitive people.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 9 Nov 1993 10:11:35 EST
From:    Charles Reace <creace@ISD.CSC.COM>
Subject: US tank naming

Terry,

Regarding the naming of US AFV's in WWII:

In _British_and_American_Tanks_of_World_War_II_ by Peter Chamberlain
and Chris Ellis (1969, Arco Publ. Co.), they at least imply that US
tanks in British service were named by the British.  For one quote
(pg.112):

   BRITISH SERVICE
   Issued to the British, the M4 medium tank was named the "General
   Sherman", more often called the "Sherman", by which name it also
   became popularly known by other nations. . . ."

The same sort of comment is made for the Stuart, Grant/Lee, and
others.  In each case, no mention is made of a nickname for US
vehicles until you get to the "British Service" section at the end of
each vehicle's section.

It's not 100% clear here whether the authors are saying that the
British coined these names, or the fact that they used existing
nicknames as the official names.  But the above quote leads me to
believe that the British were doing the coining.  Anyone know any more
about this?


  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <creace@isd.csc.com>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 8 Nov 1993 14:55:00 CDT
From:    Roger Safian <ROGER@NUACC.ACNS.NWU.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN/EDU: WWII and Japanese/Japanese Americans

Terry,

    "Go for Broke" is out on video.  Should be no problem to find.
Great movie.  Try the Van Heflin (sp) double feature, by watching
"Battleground" as well.  (Yes it's on video as well)

                                                Roger

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 9 Nov 1993 12:32:45 -0700
From:    Doug Cahoon <dcahoon@DSD.ES.COM>
Subject: Re: INF: Combat!

>I searched through the TVGuide and found that Combat! is on Nostalgia
>Channel every night at 10PM Eastern.  This is probably only useful to

I hope you allow dumb questions... what is "Combat!"
I am also interested in what some of you believe to be the
best movie dealing with WWII in the pacific. I am especially
interested in carriers and fighting squadrons.

Also and particular book that is a must to look in for information
on this. I am trying to write a bio of my uncle who was shot down
on a strike that was made on Naha Airfield (Okinawa) on March 1,
1945. He was a fighter pilot (VF4) on the Essex.

Any information would be greatly appreciated. You may just want
to send it to me, then the list is not bothered.

Doug Cahoon
dcahoon@dsd.es.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 9 Nov 1993 14:44:01 EST
From:    "William B. Thacker" <wbt@CBEMF.ATT.COM>
Subject: British and names

Emmanuel Gustin writes:

> The 'naming' of bought equipment was a necessity, because the British did
> not have a 'numeric' designation system.

I'll leave the aircraft to more knowledgable folks.  I know tanks.

The British did in fact have numeric designations for their home-grown
tanks, the "A Series".  When one of these went into production, it
generally got a name.  This became standard practice with the A14
"Covenanter," the previous A13 cruiser never got a name.  On the other
hand, the A11 was named "Matilda," but I get the impression this began an
an unofficial joke.

After the A14, anything that made production, and few things that didn't,
seem to have got names.  A15 was the Crusader, for instance, and to quote
Winston Churchill, "I believe the A22 has a name." 8-)  Officially, though,
a Churchill might still be referred to as "Infantry Tank A22, Mark VI."
That would be entirely equivalent to the US designation, "Medium Tank M4A1
(76mm)".

When American armor was purchased, it appears that our M-series
designations were dropped.  Instead, that M4A1(76mm) might be called a
"Sherman Mark V" (just guessing at the mark) or simply a "Sherman V."
Here, what Emmanuel says is right on the button, there was no numeric
designator.


In reference to another posting, it appears that most, but not all,
American tanks were named by the British.  Certainly that's true for the M3
Stuart, the M3 (medium) Grant, and the M4 Sherman.  (I've heard claimed that
the British named the Lee as well, but that sounds suspicious to me since
I'm not aware that they ever bought any.  More likely, it seems, that *we*
gave it that name after the British named the Grant.)  I believe the M36
Jackson was likewise named.

With the M24 Chaffee and M26 Pershing, we began naming tanks ourselves, and
perhaps to signify the break, stopped using Civil War generals.

I'm uncertain of the M10 Wolverine and M22 Locust, whose names don't fit
the pattern.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
(614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              wbt@cbemf.att.com
                      Humpty Dumpty was pushed!

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 9 Nov 1993 09:42:02 LCL
From:    Tom Shirhall <tshirhal@IDA.ORG>
Subject: Re: USAAF 5 NOV 43

> Robert,
>      The last mission may have been a milk run, but William Wyler's movie
of
> it (WWII one, not the modern one by his daughter) is not dull or boring.
In
> fact,
> it has some terrific pictures of damaged B-17s coming in to land, even
from a
> milk run.  I recommend it over the recent version.  It gets shown every
once i
n
> a while on educational channels.

Wyler's 1944 version of Memphis Belle will be broadcast on TDC (The
Discovery Channel)  on Thursday at 7:00PM and 11:00PM. A&E is broadcasting
Victory at Sea throughout the day.

Tom Shirhall                Tshirhal@ida.org

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 9 Nov 1993 14:53:27 EST
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <hb9388@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: West Point Library On-Line (repeat)

Fellow list members:

(I think the last message may have got garbled leaving here).

The card catalog at the West Point Library is available on line.

Use the following address:

telnet 129.29.90.100

The program has a menu with instructions.  It is not the easiest to use,
but after a few tries, it's pretty straight forward. I hope this helps
those who are interested in finding out what is here (especially Bill Huber,
Terry Moore, Bob Granvin, and Larry J).

See ya,

Bear

Barrett F. Lowe                    RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, US Military Academy, West Point, NY 10996

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 9 Nov 1993 16:08:54 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: US tank naming

TWIHI (The Way I Heard It) was that a British tanker drove a recently arrived
Stuart around for a while, and pronounced that it was a "real honey" so they
named them Honey tanks. I've always thought the nicknames had more recognition
value than the "official" names.

(Of course, I'm no tank fanatic, unless it's for target practice, such as
in Sicily [flame suit on!])

Larry J

JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 9 Nov 1993 23:00:17 +0100
From:    Richard Harold Cummings <CUMMINGSR@ADMINA.RFERL.ORG>
Subject: GEN: "Crystal Night"

Bavarian TV is running a very interesting documentary film on
the background and events of the start on Crystal Night,
especially what happened in Munich 55 years ago.  While not
quite WWII, it was one of the major events on the march to
the beginning of the War.  Regards from Munich.  Richard.

--==oo00oo==--
cummingsr@rferl.org
RFE/RL Inc
Munich,Germany

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 9 Nov 1993 15:47:23 -0700
From:    Doug Cahoon <dcahoon@DSD.ES.COM>
Subject: Re: CAP - question

A question about Navy lingo.
I have a log book for a fighter pilot and in the "Character of Flight" column
it has such things as:
CAP
Z
JACK
CL
FCLP
GB
RCAP
Is there a translation for these somewhere?

Doug Cahoon

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 9 Nov 1993 17:49:48 -0400
From:    "Steven C. Salina" <SSALINA@BENTLEY.BITNET>
Subject: Re: GEN: "Crystal Night"

Richard,  I would be very interested in seeing that program.  Is there some
way that copies could be obtained once the program airs?  I'm sure others are
interested as well, so any information you could provide would be most
appreciated.

Thanx,
Steve Salina
SSALINA@BENTLEY.EDU

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 9 Nov 1993 17:28:56 -0500
From:    "M. Joseph Barone" <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: US tank naming

>    Issued to the British, the M4 medium tank was named the "General
>    Sherman", more often called the "Sherman", by which name it also
>    became popularly known by other nations. . . ."
>
> The same sort of comment is made for the Stuart, Grant/Lee, and
> others.  In each case, no mention is made of a nickname for US

        So why did the British have such a fixation on the American
Civil War?  Another ACW name comes to mind: M36 Jackson.  I guess
Stuart rated two tanks: the M3 and M5!  Any others?

        Thinking about it some more, though, I thought the Brits
called the M3 "Honey" and that they renamed the M3 Lee to Grant
when they replaced the turret.
--
Joe Barone
m1b@rayssd.ssd.ray.com
Did you ever hear enthusiasm like that in all your life?  They even
have the damn grave diggers in there!  Now that's fighting spirit!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 10 Nov 1993 12:31:29 +1100
From:    Mick Fauchon <ulmjf@DEWEY.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: INF: Combat!

        Doug,

            By now somebody else has probably told you this, but "Combat!"
was a television programme in the "50s (early 60s?) : I can remember
watching it as a kid ---- we even got it here in Australia.

                                                Hope that helps,

                                                Regards,

                                                Mick.

--                                                                          --
Mick Fauchon                          | Internet: ulmjf@dewey.newcastle.edu.au
Reference Section, Auchmuty Library   | Ph  (intl+61+49) 215861
University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA    | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833


On Tue, 9 Nov 1993, Doug Cahoon wrote:

> >I searched through the TVGuide and found that Combat! is on Nostalgia
> >Channel every night at 10PM Eastern.  This is probably only useful to
>
> I hope you allow dumb questions... what is "Combat!"
> I am also interested in what some of you believe to be the
> best movie dealing with WWII in the pacific. I am especially
> interested in carriers and fighting squadrons.
>
> Also and particular book that is a must to look in for information
> on this. I am trying to write a bio of my uncle who was shot down
> on a strike that was made on Naha Airfield (Okinawa) on March 1,
> 1945. He was a fighter pilot (VF4) on the Essex.
>
> Any information would be greatly appreciated. You may just want
> to send it to me, then the list is not bothered.
>
> Doug Cahoon
> dcahoon@dsd.es.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 9 Nov 1993 20:32:05 -0800
From:    Marjorie Fulmer <mfulmer@POPMAIL.UCSD.EDU>
Subject: <No subject given>

Please tell me how to unsubscribe to this list
Thank you
Marjorie Fulmer
UCSD 0639
(619) 597-2620
(619) 550-0277

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 8 Nov 1993 to 9 Nov 1993
***********************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 9 Nov 1993 to 10 Nov 1993
To: Recipients of WWII-L digests <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
Status: O

There are 31 messages totalling 1074 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Naming of Japanese Planes (2)
  2. GEN: "Crystal Night" (2)
  3. Long Lance Torpedo
  4. USAAF 10 NOV 43
  5. US tank naming (6)
  6. CAP - question (4)
  7. INF: Combat!
  8. GEN/EDU: WWII and Japanese/Japanese Americans (3)
  9. British and names
 10. Navy Termn (2)
 11. Addr: James Jones
 12. <No subject given>
 13. Tank Naming
 14. CAP - QUESTION
 15. West Point Library On-Line (repeat)
 16. tank naming
 17. Veterans' Day, 1993.
 18. For Veterans'/Remembrance Day.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 10 Nov 1993 00:00:15 EST
From:    "Denis Ouellette, Indiana Univ" <OUELLETT@UCS.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Naming of Japanese Planes

I don't recall the original post, but I think someone had a question
about the naming of Japanese planes.  I spotted a new book by
Robert C. Mikesh "Japanese Aircraft - Code Names and Designations".
It has an interesting first chapter which gives the details of how the
naming system was developing primarilly by Col. Frank McCoy and Frances
Williams.  Turns out many planes were given names of people known to
people in the air intellegence units.  McCoy was also involved in developing
the post war system of naming Soviet aircraft.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 10 Nov 1993 06:24:13 +0100
From:    Richard Harold Cummings <CUMMINGSR@ADMINA.RFERL.ORG>
Subject: Re: GEN: "Crystal Night"

The program was aired on Bavarian TV, a PAL television system, i.e.,
not compatible with the American television system NTSC.  You would
need a multi-system VCR and TV to watch the tape. Not many Americans
have them.  I know it can be converted over to a NTSC system, but
that is expensive.  I didn't make a copy of the program, sorry.
I can ask Bavarian TV for a copy, but I am not sure what I could
do with it.  If anyone in the U.S. works for, or has contacts, with
American TV networks, they might be able to obtain a copy through
that source. Obviously, the program was in German.  A thought, and
only a thought, the program first aired in 1988 (50th Anniversary).
Perhaps the Holocaust Museum in Washington has a copy in the archives?
Sorry, but that is the best I can come with.  Richard in Munich.

--==oo00oo==--
cummingsr@rferl.org
RFE/RL Inc
Munich,Germany

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 10 Nov 1993 06:56:25 +0100
From:    Richard Harold Cummings <CUMMINGSR@ADMINA.RFERL.ORG>
Subject: Re: GEN: "Crystal Night"

To those interested in historical coincidences, November 9 is
a very significant date.  To those not interested, please delete
now as the report from one of our editors is fairly long and
written in broadcast style:



yyy g - november 9th  symbolizes germany's troubled history

munich, nov. 9 (nca/patricia hudson) - most countries commemorate
important days in their history, but few can match the historical
weight of november 9th in germany's troubled history. that one
day marks the founding of the weimar republic in 1918; hitler's
foiled beer hall putsch in 1923; the night of broken glass
(kristallnacht) in 1938 when jews were beaten and killed, their
shops and synagogues destroyed; and the breachingf the berlin
wall in 1989.

taken together, those events sum up some of the most important
turning points in 20th century german histo. and because, like
france in the 19th century, so much of german history this
century has affected the course of  rest of the world, they have
gained a signficance reaching far beyond germany's borders.

moreover, as germany witnesses a resurgence of neo-nazi extremism
and a loss of confidence in mainstream politics following
unification, each of the november 9th milestones has gained new
relevance. as the country marks the 75th anniversary of the
founding of the weimar republic today, for example, analysts are
recalling the weakness of democratic institutions that failed to
resist pressures from the extreme right and left. while political
leaders reject direct comparisons between now and then, even the
most sanguine     commentators warnhat weimar's lessons should
not be forgotten during a time of economic uncertainty and
growing political apathy. some analysts are already calling
attention to today's 1930s-like unemployment and warning of
unrest, particularly in eastern germany.

likehe fall of the berlin wall, the weimar republic was also
initially greeted with euphoria as marking the end of the
wilhelmine monarchy. theodor wolff, the famous editor-in-chief of
the "berliner tagesblatt," wrote on nov. 10, 1918: "the greatest
of all revotions has like a sudden great wind toppled the
imperial regime together with everything that meant from top to
ottom." many of the jubilant celebrators atop the berlin wall 71
years later likewise believed the east german communist regime
had been swept asi with one powerful gesture. but in both cases,
a truism of history soon became apparent: that revolutions are
not made in a day and that what has gone before can be neither
erased nor forgotten.

berlin historian heinrich august winkler writes in today's
"sueddeutsche zeitung" that in the case of weimar: "the
republican new beginning was handicapped -- handicappnot only by
the  military defeat from which it rose, but also by the
contradictory legacy of the system that crashed in 1918."

similarly, most analysts agree that the legacy of the sed regime
has made the task of sewing together east and west germany all
the more difficult because of the vastly different economic
conditions and social expectations of both halves. those
differences extend to most asects of life, including, for
example, how eastern germans perceive their nation's history and
their own national identity. for germans who grew up under the
communist regime, hitler's attempted putsch in 1923 or the
kristallnacht 15 years later were seen though a prism created by
the sed. that view distanced "good, socialist germans" in the
east from historic crs said to have resulted from the excesses of
western-style capitalism. many analysts say it is only now that
eastern germans are coming to terms with the country's nazi past,
at a time when neo-nazi skinheads -- many with only the vaguest
knowledge of the third reich -- are desecrating jewish cemeteries
and smearing swastikas on public buildings.

it is not surprising then that so many german commenttors today
focus on the strong ambivalence they say november 9th now
arouses: joy, on the one hand, that many is no longer divided, no
matter how difficult unity is proving to chieve; but at the same
time  sorrow to recall the country's missed opportunities in 1918
and 1923 to resist the extremism that plunged the country and the
rest of the world into chaos and the huge cost in human life that
resulted in 1938 and beyond.


--==oo00oo==--
cummingsr@rferl.org
RFE/RL Inc
Munich,Germany

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 10 Nov 1993 13:00:22 +0700
From:    "Peter E. Beal" <beal@NWG.NECTEC.OR.TH>
Subject: Re: Long Lance Torpedo

On Sun, 7 Nov 1993, TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET wrote:

>   Mr.Todaka, Tokyo, Japan, an Imperial Japanese Navy weapons expert, stated in
>   in his letter to Mr.Norman Polmar, 28 Sept 1993, that it was his opinion the
>   term of NAGAYARI, (or Long Lance), probably originated in the United States
>   rather than in Japan. He also stated the term of GYORAI (torpedo) was used in
>   the IJN (Combined Fleet), and automatically meant the Type 93 torpedo.
>   Possibly someone on our side thought up the name. Maybe someone connected
>   with Samuel Eliot Morison official History of the Navy in World War II.
>   QUESTION: Who gave the Long Lance its name, and why ?

I recall reading about the Long Lance torpedo in the above mentioned
work.  The "why" is very simple.   Its range was about 30-50% greater
than the then used U.S. torpedos.   I think they also had a larger
diameter and were intended only for  use on surface vessels.

Regards

Peter

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 10 Nov 1993 07:06:49 -0500
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 10 NOV 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
WEDNESDAY, 10 NOVEMBER 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning

CENTRAL PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Seventh Air Force): The 27th
Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 30th Bombardment Group (Heavy), transfers from
Mokuleia Field, Territory of Hawaii to Nanumea Island in the Ellice Islands
with B-24's. They will fly their first mission on 14 Nov.
  The 392d Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 30th Bombardment Group (Heavy)
transfers from Barking Sands, Territory of Hawaii to Canton Island in the
Phoenix Islands with B-24's. They will fly their first mission on 22 Nov.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, fighters on armed reconnaissance
sink 3 large motor boats in the Yoyang-Sinti area and damage or sink 15
sampans and a barge in the Hwajung-Shasi vicinity.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): VIII Bomber Command Mission 126: 5
B-17's drop 1 million leaflets over Paris, Rennes, Le Mans and Rouen, France
at 2020-2051 hours.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Around 60 B-26's bomb Chievres
airfield, Belgium. In France, bad weather causes the force sent to bomb
Lille/Vendeville airfield to abandon their mission, though a few bombers
manage to bomb other targets in the area; a force of 72 B-26's dispatched to
attack Montdidier airfield suffers numerous aborts due to weather; 6 bombers
manage to bomb the airfield believed to be the secondary target of
Amiens/Glisy.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Italy, B-24's bomb the
Villarperosa ball-bearing works at Turin, and B-17's pound a bridge and
marshalling yards at Bolzano. P-38's escort the B-24's all the way and
accompany the B-17's almost to the target.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): Northwest African Tactical Bomber
Force (NATBF) bombers hit shipping at Split, Yugoslavia and Durazzo, Albania.
In Italy, XII Air Support Command and Royal Air Force (RAF) fighter-bombers
hit Rocca and nearby gun positions, and trains and troops S of Rome; fighters
strafe trucks and trains in the Rome-La Spezia and the Piombino-Leghorn areas.
  HQ 310th Bombardment Group (Medium) and it's 380th Bombardment Squadron
(Medium) transfer from Menzel Temime, Tunisia to Philippeville, Algeria with
B-25's. A detachment of the 380th is operating from Oudna, Tunisia.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, 20+ B-25's carry out strikes on Kara airfield on Bougainville Island
and the airfield on Ballale Island and attack shipping between Suhane Island
and Tarlena.
  The 69th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 42d Bombardment Group (Medium),
transfers from New Caledonia Island to the Russell Islands with B-25's.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): B-24's bomb Lakunai
airfield on New Britain Island, hit a new landing ground on Duke of York
Island east of Rabaul, and bomb Soerabaja, Java. B-25's thoroughly pound
Alexishafen airfield on New Guinea.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 10 Nov 1993 07:43:36 EST
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: US tank naming

On Tue, 9 Nov 1993 16:08:54 EST Larry & Kim Jewell said:
>TWIHI (The Way I Heard It) was that a British tanker drove a recently arrived
>Stuart around for a while, and pronounced that it was a "real honey" so they
>named them Honey tanks. I've always thought the nicknames had more recognition
>value than the "official" names.

Crisp's driver, reported in =Brazen Chariots=.

ken koester
maint2@ers.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 10 Nov 1993 06:48:43 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Naming of Japanese Planes

Date sent:      Wed, 10 Nov 1993 00:00:15 EST
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
From:           "Denis Ouellette, Indiana Univ" <OUELLETT@UCS.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject:        Naming of Japanese Planes
Originally to:  WWII-L%UBVM.BITNET@UICVM.UIC.EDU
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

I don't recall the original post, but I think someone had a question
about the naming of Japanese planes.  I spotted a new book by
Robert C. Mikesh "Japanese Aircraft - Code Names and Designations".
It has an interesting first chapter which gives the details of how the
naming system was developing primarilly by Col. Frank McCoy and Frances
Williams.  Turns out many planes were given names of people known to
people in the air intellegence units.  McCoy was also involved in developing
the post war system of naming Soviet aircraft.


Denis,

Very interesting. Thanks for the post.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 10 Nov 1993 06:50:16 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: CAP - question

Date sent:      Tue, 9 Nov 1993 15:47:23 -0700
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
From:           Doug Cahoon <dcahoon@DSD.ES.COM>
Subject:        Re: CAP - question
Originally to:  World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

A question about Navy lingo.
I have a log book for a fighter pilot and in the "Character of Flight" column
it has such things as:
CAP
Z
JACK
CL
FCLP
GB
RCAP
Is there a translation for these somewhere?

Doug Cahoon


Doug,

I can't help with all of these, but CAP stands for Combat Air Patrol.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 10 Nov 1993 07:04:38 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: INF: Combat!

Date sent:      Wed, 10 Nov 1993 12:31:29 +1100
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
From:           Mick Fauchon <ulmjf@DEWEY.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU>
Subject:        Re: INF: Combat!
Originally to:  World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu>
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

        Doug,

            By now somebody else has probably told you this, but "Combat!"
was a television programme in the "50s (early 60s?) : I can remember
watching it as a kid ---- we even got it here in Australia.

                                                Hope that helps,

                                                Regards,

                                                Mick.

--                                                                          --
Mick,

"Combat" appeared in the early 60's, and it was also one of my
favorites. In fact, that series contributed much into my deciding to
learn German, which, as you know, much of that language was used to
enhance the realism of it.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 10 Nov 1993 07:10:58 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN/EDU: WWII and Japanese/Japanese Americans

Date sent:      Mon, 8 Nov 1993 14:55:00 CDT
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
From:           Roger Safian <ROGER@NUACC.ACNS.NWU.EDU>
Subject:        Re: GEN/EDU: WWII and Japanese/Japanese Americans
Originally to:  WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

Terry,

    "Go for Broke" is out on video.  Should be no problem to find.
Great movie.  Try the Van Heflin (sp) double feature, by watching
"Battleground" as well.  (Yes it's on video as well)

                                                Roger


Roger,

Thanks a million for the post. I will look into those ASAP. I wasn't
aware that  "Battleground" was out on video as well. I saw that one
when it came out. Also an excellent movie, and BTW, it was Van
Johnson who did an excellent job as the main character.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 10 Nov 1993 08:12:28 EST
From:    "William B. Thacker" <wbt@CBEMF.ATT.COM>
Subject: Re: US tank naming

Joe (Is that Little Joe or Big Joe?) Barone writes:
>
> > The same sort of comment is made for the Stuart, Grant/Lee, and
> > others.  In each case, no mention is made of a nickname for US
>
>         So why did the British have such a fixation on the American
> Civil War?

A better question would be, "why did they decide to name them after
generals."  With the exception of the Cromwell (and arguably the
Churchill), the British didn't do that with their own tanks.
(Possibility... maybe the Cromwell was then being developed, and someone
wanted to start a pattern for names.  I'd have to check some dates.)

Having decided to use US generals, the choice gets simpler.  The British
obviously aren't going to celebrate heroes from our War of Independence, or
the War of 1812.  WWI and the Mexican-American War were both pretty recent,
and the only name that rushes to mind from these is Pershing (was he still
alive?  ).  The Spanish-American War's most touted hero (excluding the
navy) was Teddy Roosevelt, which would cause confusion relative to
President Franklin Roosevelt.

Bottom line:  it's the ACW or nothing.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
(614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              wbt@cbemf.att.com
                      Humpty Dumpty was pushed!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 10 Nov 1993 08:17:55 EST
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <hb9388@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: CAP - question

Doug,

Being a ground-pounder grunt type, I can't help too much.
I do know that CAP stands for Combat Air Patrol - fighters whose
mission was to fly over the carrier to provide early warning
and fight off any incoming enemy planes.

Bear

>A question about Navy lingo.
>I have a log book for a fighter pilot and in the "Character of Flight" column
>it has such things as:
>CAP
>Z
>JACK
>CL
>FCLP
>GB
>RCAP
>Is there a translation for these somewhere?
>
>Doug Cahoon
>

Barrett F. Lowe                    RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, US Military Academy, West Point, NY 10996

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 10 Nov 1993 08:24:54 EST
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <hb9388@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN/EDU: WWII and Japanese/Japanese Americans

Valerie,

Looks like a good questionnaire.  I can't help you out directly with
what you are looking for, but you may also want to consider interviewing
any people (US citizens or otherwise) who were in the Phillipines and/or
Guam.

My mother was 9 years old when the war broke out and she and her family endured
2 and 1/2 years of occupation by the Japanese on Guam.  Even today, she
won't talk about it too much, although now she has forgiven the Japanese
for the treatment the Guamanians received, especially during the latter
stages of the occupation before liberation in 1944.

Bear

Barrett F. Lowe                    RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, US Military Academy, West Point, NY 10996

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 10 Nov 1993 08:46:59 EST
From:    Charles Reace <creace@ISD.CSC.COM>
Subject: Re: British and names

>From Bill Thacker:

> . . .   (I've heard claimed that
> the British named the Lee as well, but that sounds suspicious to me since
> 'm not aware that they ever bought any. . . .

Bill, per _British_and_American_Tanks_of_WWII (Chamerlain and Ellis),
"On March 11,1941, the Lend-Lease Act was ratified which made munitions
of all kinds available to Britain . . . Standard M3 mediums were thus
also supplied to the British Army who gave these vehicles the name Lee . . ."

I think it all just goes to show that under that officious exterior,
all Englishmen are romantics at heart:  names are so much friendlier
than numbers.  B^)

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <creace@isd.csc.com>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 10 Nov 1993 09:17:40 EST
From:    Charles Reace <creace@ISD.CSC.COM>
Subject: Re: US tank naming

>       So why did the British have such a fixation on the American
> Civil War?  Another ACW name comes to mind: M36 Jackson.  I guess

Well, it had been our biggest war by far to that time, so it certainly
had the most generals to choose from (we eventually got Pershing in
there by the very end of the war, to represent WWI).  You don't think
the Brits were going to choose Revolutionary War generals, eh?  B^)

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <creace@isd.csc.com>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 10 Nov 1993 08:48:00 CDT
From:    Roger Safian <ROGER@NUACC.ACNS.NWU.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN/EDU: WWII and Japanese/Japanese Americans

Terry,

> Thanks a million for the post. I will look into those ASAP. I wasn't
> aware that  "Battleground" was out on video as well. I saw that one
> when it came out. Also an excellent movie, and BTW, it was Van
> Johnson who did an excellent job as the main character.

When I sent that I knew there was something wrong, but I just coudn't
put my finger on it.  Thanks for the correction.

                                               Roger

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 10 Nov 1993 10:19:47 -0500
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: Navy Termn

>A question about Navy lingo.
>I have a log book for a fighter pilot and in the "Character of Flight" column
>it has such things as:

>CAP - Combat Air Patrol

>Z - Probably Zebra (now Zulu), i.e., Greenwich Mean Time (GMT) or
Universal Coordinated Time (UTC), i.e., EST + 5 hours

>JACK - Code name for a Japanese aircraft.  I will have to check my
references at home to determine the aircraft.

>CL - USN designation for a light cruiser

That's it folks.

>FCLP
>GB
>RCAP
>Is there a translation for these somewhere?
>
>Doug Cahoon
>

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 10 Nov 1993 09:34:22 EST
From:    Charles Reace <creace@ISD.CSC.COM>
Subject: Re: CAP - question

It's hard to answer out of context, but CL could be "Cruiser, Light", and
RCAP may be Recon Combat Air Patrol.  If used in conjunction with a time,
Z may refer to Zulu time (Greenwich Meridian Time).  I'm sure some ex or
current tail-hooker will ultimately resolve this for you.

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <creace@isd.csc.com>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 10 Nov 1993 12:02:14 -0500
From:    "M. Joseph Barone" <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: US tank naming

From: "William B. Thacker" <wbt@CBEMF.ATT.COM> writes:
>
> Joe (Is that Little Joe or Big Joe?) Barone ...

Definitely Little Joe since I'm a first generation Italian just as he
was and I suspect that I would have also moved the Command Jeep to the
other of the canal in the face of twenty attacking Tigers!

> WWI and the Mexican-American War were both pretty recent,

Say what!? Mex-Am was fought nearly 100 years before!  Now, I'll
grant you that it was kinda boring by comparison... :-)

> and the only name that rushes to mind from these is Pershing (was he still
> alive?

Yes.  He outlived Patton.  The irony was that Patton visited Pershing
before Patton left for North Africa and wished Pershing a long life that
would go beyond his own.  George got his wish!  (Patton was Pershing's
subordinate during the hunt for Pacho Villa and, I think, WWI.)
--
Joe Barone
m1b@rayssd.ssd.ray.com
Look, when we was in the bocage country, we was assaulted by them Tigers!
You know what I mean by assaulted, hunh?!  Well, I mean assaulted!!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 10 Nov 1993 13:26:04 EDT
From:    RICHARD KING <RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Addr: James Jones

*** Resending note of 11/10/93 13:24
Date: 10 Nov 93 13:24:56 EDT
From:  <RKING@VUNET>
To:    <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>

Terry:
I attended the James Jones Conference Saturday and asked about
your questions. Jones's son, Jamie, and daughter, Kaylie, both
were in attendance, and both generally said that they were around
their dad when he was working on WWII and he had access to
whatever he wanted. Kaylie said Jones was friends with several
retired generals and could well have received information verbally
from them concerning Olympic and Coronet. The person who
worked on the book with him (Graphics direction: Art Weithas)
lives in New York (I was told) and could be contacted there (maybe
Whos Who in Art or the publisher, in this case Grosset & Dunlap),
and you could ask him further questions.
    Otherwise, no one knew much about it (I think there is about
one or two pages in the book about those operations: my dad and
his 77th Division were getting ready to head for the Japan invasion when
the war ended, thankfully, or I would no doubt not be here today).
My dad told me recently about how he heard when the war ended. He
and zillions of other soldiers were camped on an island somewhere
(this is for R&R after Okinawa) when the announcement was made.
He said there were tents full of men as far as you could see on
both sides of you, and as word passed from tent to tent you just
heard terrific shouting from that tent. So he heard far in the
distance the shouting as it gradually approached his tent; finally
the word came and the men in his tent all shouted, then the next
one and so forth on down the line until the noise got lower and lower
and went away, into infinity.
     I'll bend your ear a little more. Willie Morris (main speaker)
said he was at a party in Washington, DC, with Jones, and Morris
was standing at a bar when Sen. Ted Kennedy walked up and said,
"I'll have a scotch and soda, please." Morris said he was so
flabbergasted he fixed Kennedy a drink and handed it to him. He
said he looked over against the wall and James Jones was laughing
so hard he had to lean against the wall for support. A short time
later, Kennedy wanted another drink and said, "Where's that
bartender?" Jones walked up to Kennedy and said, "That was no
bartender, that was the God Damned Editor-in-Chief of Harpers
Magazine!"
Enough for now. Best wishes from Indiana.
Richard L. King, Vincennes University, Vincennes, IN
RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 10 Nov 1993 13:14:36 -0600
From:    John Lundstrom <jl@CSD4.CSD.UWM.EDU>
Subject: Re: CAP - question

Doug,
        I can offer a few definitions, although it would help to know
when the flight logs date.
CAP= Combat Air Patrol ; CL = carrier landing (usually kept a running total);
FCLP= Field Carrier Landing Practice (touch downs on a land base under the
control of a landing signal officer) RCAP= possibly Rescue CAP (to protect
downed pilots). JACK = Allied code name for a Japanese J2M Raiden fighter-
interceptor [did he claim this?].
        A friend has done some research on log entries, and I will contact
him for possible further clarification.
        Contact me directly, and I may be able to help in researching your
uncle at Okinawa.
        John Lundstrom jl@csd4.csd.uwm.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 10 Nov 1993 13:28:12 -0500
From:    Wendy Novacek <WKN001@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU>
Subject: <No subject given>

sign off WWII-L

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 10 Nov 1993 13:38:25 -0600
From:    Joe Pohlmann <pohlmann@PPCLUS.MONSANTO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tank Naming

        The British were very flamboyant in their naming of war materials.  They also enjoyed renaming American products put into British service.  For example, the American Skytrain was renamed the Dakota by the British.

        Just a thought...

                        Joe Pohlmann
                        Monsanto Port Plastics
                        Process Systems Engineer
                        pohlmann@ppclus

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 10 Nov 1993 14:48:35 EST
From:    "Denis Ouellette, Indiana Univ" <OUELLETT@UCS.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: US tank naming

Don't forget that the American Civil War generated a lot of interest
in Europe at time, especially Britain.  Partly political, economic
(Southern cotton feed the British textile mills - at least until they
got from Egypt and India), most because sustained warfare with those
kind of casulties had never been seen before.  Many of the battles
were covered by British journalists and received front page coverage
there.  I think it was one of the last wars that generated "romantic"
heros - which certainly didn't happen for the British in WWI.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 10 Nov 1993 16:30:38 -0500
From:    Robert Doyle <doyle@CHEM.NRL.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: Re: CAP - QUESTION

>A question about Navy lingo.
>I have a log book for a fighter pilot and in the "Character of Flight" column
>it has such things as:
>CAP
>Z
>JACK
>CL
>FCLP
>GB
>RCAP
>Is there a translation for these somewhere?
>
>Doug Cahoon
************************************************

CAP: Combat Air Patrol
Z: Zone
JACK: probably JACC: Joint Airborne Communications Center
CL: probably C/L: Carrier Landing(s)
FCLP: Field Carrier Landing Practice
GB: General Board?
RCAP:? RCA: Reach Cruising Altitude

The DICNAVAB is always a good source:
"Dictionary of Naval Abbreviations",
Bill Wedertz,
Naval Institute Press, Annapolis, 1977. There are more recent editions.
Happy Veterans' Day

Bob

Robert J. Doyle, Jr.
Naval Research Laboratory
Washington, DC
doyle@chem.nrl.navy.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 10 Nov 1993 15:46:37 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: US tank naming

Date sent:      Wed, 10 Nov 1993 09:17:40 EST
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
From:           Charles Reace <creace@ISD.CSC.COM>
Subject:        Re: US tank naming
Originally to:  WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

>       So why did the British have such a fixation on the American
> Civil War?  Another ACW name comes to mind: M36 Jackson.  I guess

Well, it had been our biggest war by far to that time, so it certainly
had the most generals to choose from (we eventually got Pershing in
there by the very end of the war, to represent WWI).  You don't think
the Brits were going to choose Revolutionary War generals, eh?  B^)

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <creace@isd.csc.com>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057


Charles and others,

I would also think that out of respect for the fact that we had
supplied our British allies with badly-needed equipment, and rather
than confuse the issue by retaining already-named American equipment
in British service, the Brits, to indicate that the equipment was of
non-British origin but of American, would rename the American
equipment using another name of Civil War origin, as you suggest.
Does that make sense?

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 10 Nov 1993 16:41:22 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: West Point Library On-Line (repeat)

Barry,

Thanks for the information referencing the USMA Card Catalog. I will
take advantage of that and have my mind blown again about all that is
available out there.

I appreciate the article very much, and hope that you received the
same from me.

Until later,

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Nov 1993 00:42:57 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVSDS.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: Navy Termn

On Wed, 10 Nov 1993 jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM wrote:
> >JACK - Code name for a Japanese aircraft.  I will have to check my
> references at home to determine the aircraft.

'Jack' was Mitsubishi J2M Raiden, a relatively scarce aircraft. Allow me
to list (not yet fully complete, but the list was near at hand):

Adam          Nakajima SKT-97. Did not exist.
Alf           Kawanishi E7K
Ann           Mitsubishi Ki.30
Babs          Mitsubishi C5M
Babs          Mitsubishi Ki.15
Belle         Kawanishi H3K
Ben           Nagoya-Sento KI-001. Did not exist.
Bess          Heinkel He 111. Not in Japanese service.
Betty         Mitsubishi G4M
Betty         Mitsubishi G6M
Bob           Achi 97 seapleane. Did not exist.
Bob           Kawasaki Ki-28
Cedar         Tachikawa Ki.17
Cherry        Yokosuka H5Y
Clara         Tachikwawa Ki.70
Claude        Mitsubishi A5M
Cypress       Kyushu K9W
Dave          Nakajima E8N
Dick          Seversky A8V
Dinah         Mitsubishi Ki.46
Doc           Messerschmitt Bf 110. Not in Japanese service.
Doris         Mitsubishi B-97. Did not exist.
Edna          Mitsubishi Ki.71
Emily         Kawanishi H8K
Eva           Not a military aircraft.
Eve           Not a military aircraft.
Frances       Yokosuka P1Y Ginga / Kyokko
Frank         Mitsubihi TK-4. Did not exist.
Frank         Nakajima Ki.84 Hayate
Fred          Focke-Wulf Fw 190. Not in Japanese service.
George        Kawanishi N1K1-J and N1K2-J
Ginga         "Melkweg"
Glenn         Yokosuka E14Y
Grace         Aichi B7A Ryusei
Gus           Nakajima AT-27. Did not exist.
Hamp          Mitsubishi A6M Reisen with clipped wing tips.
Hank          Aichi E10A
Harry         Mitsubishi TK-4. Did not exist.
Helen         Nakajima Ki.49 Donryu
Hickory       Tachikawa Ki.54
Ida           Tachikawa Ki.36
Ida           Tachikawa Ki.55
Ione          Aichi AI-104. Did not exist.
Irene         Junkers Ju 87. Not in Japanese service.
Irving        Nakajima J1N Gekko
Jack          Mitsubishi J2M Raiden
Jake          Aichi E13A
Janice        Junkers Ju 88. Not in Japanese service.
Jean          Yokosuka B4Y
Jerry         Heinkel He 112.
Jill          Nakajima B6N
Joe           TK-19. Did not exist.
Joyce         Tachikawa. Did not exist.
Judy          Yokosuka D4Y
Julia         Type 97 heavy bomber. Did not exist. (Was Ki.48)
June          Seaplane version of Aichi D3A. Did not exist. (Was E13A)
Kate          Nakajima B5N
Kate 61       Mitsubishi B5M
Kyokko        "Dageraad"
Laura         Aichi E11A
Lily          Kawasaki Ki.48
Liz           Nakajia G5N
Loise         Mitsubishi Ki-2
Lorna         Kyushu Q1W Tokai
Louise        Mitsubishi Ki-2
Mabel         Mitsubishi B5M
Mavis         Kawanishi H6K
Mike          Messerschmitt Bf 109. Not in Japanese service.
Millie        Vultee VG-11. Not in Japanese service.
Myrt          Nakajima C6N Saiun
Nate          Nakajima Ki.27
Nell          Mitsubishi G3M
Nick          Kawasaki Ki.45 Toryu
Norm          Kawanishi E15K Shiun
Norma         Type 97 light bomber, did not exist. (Was Ki-15)
Oak           Kawanishi K10W
Omar          Suzukaze 20. Did not exist.
Oscar         Nakajima Ki.43 Hayabusa
Patsy         Tachikawa Ki.74
Paul          Aichi E16A Zuiun
Peggy         Mitsubishi Ki.67
Perry         Kawasaki Ki.10
Pete          Mitsubishi F1M
Pine          Mitsubishi K3M
Randy         Kawasaki Ki.102
Ray           Mitsubishi Type 1. Did not exist. (Was A6M)
Rex           Kawanishi N1K Kyofu
Rita          Nakajima G8N Renzan
Rob           Kawasaki Ki.64
Rufe          Nakajima A6M, floatplane version of the A6M 'Zeke'.
Ruth          Fiat BR 20
Sally         Mitsubishi Ki.21
Sam           Mitsubishi A7M Reppu
Slim          Watanabe E9W
Sonia         Mitsubishi Ki.51
Spruce        Tachikawa Ki.9
Stella        Kokusai Ki.76
Susie         Aichi D1A
Tabby         Showa / Nakajima L2D.
Thalia        Kawasaki Ki.56
Thelma        Tachikawa LO
Theresa       Kokusai Ki.59
Thora         Nakajima Ki.34
Tina          Mitsubishi L3Y
Tojo          Nakajima Ki.44 Shoki
Tony          Kawasaki Ki.61 Hien
Topsy         Kawasaki Ki.57
Trixie        Junkers Ju 52/3m. Not in Japanese service.
Trudy         Focke Wulf Fw 200. Not in Japanese service.
Val           Aichi D3A
Willow        Yokosuka K5Y
Zeke          Mitsubishi A6M Reisen

Emmanuel.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 10 Nov 1993 20:41:15 EST
From:    Richard Kaplan <kaplanr@CLP2.CLPGH.ORG>
Subject: Re: tank naming

>...why name them after generals...?

        From what I remember reading about British habits in naming their
vehicles, the pattern depended on the tank's role.  Recon, or real armor.
The pattern I recall involved light to medium tanks with C names: Cromwell,
Crusader and Comet.  The Churchill obviously doesn't fit here, but that may
have been a popular rather than official designation.

        As for the "Wolverine" that was a TD and not a tank.  What I'd like to
know, is why the British came up with "Priest" and "Bishop" for self-propelled
guns?

                                        Richard Kaplan

My vote for better movie about the PTO is the one with Jimmy Cagney portraying
Admiral Halsey; but I forget the title (is it Above and Beyond)?

I also like the John Wayne pic about Frank "Spig" Wead; has eagles in the
title.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 10 Nov 1993 20:57:35 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Veterans' Day, 1993.

               Day is done,
               Gone the Sun,
               From the land,
               From the sea,
               From the sky.

               All is well,
               Rest in peace,
               God is nigh.

Remember that some gave their all that you might have all you have.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 10 Nov 1993 21:08:29 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: For Veterans'/Remembrance Day.

                  Flags today in tribute wave
                  For those loyal ones who gave
                  Of their youth, their hopes, their might
                  For a cause they knew was right.

                  Morning bells sound their call.
                  Pause and say a prayer for all-
                  All who served valiantly
                  That men might be ever free.

                  Toll of bells, drums' slow beat-
                  Silence falls in every street.
                  In each heart swells the plea:
                  Keep us safe, but keep us free!

>From Ms. Schrumf's sixth grade class, Burtsfield Elementary, West Lafayette,
Indiana, USA.

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 9 Nov 1993 to 10 Nov 1993
************************************************

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Status: O

There are 45 messages totalling 1359 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. CAP ?
  2. US tank naming (3)
  3. Navajo code-talkers (4)
  4. Request to be added as a user of List WWII-L
  5. Japanese planes (2)
  6. tank naming (5)
  7. Message not deliverable
  8. RCAP
  9. David Irving (2)
 10. USAAF 11 NOV 43
 11. mystery (3)
 12. Re[2]: US tank naming
 13. GEN RE: WWII movies (3)
 14. RAF vs USAAF heavy bombardment (4)
 15. REF: Navajo Code Talkers
 16. USS New Jersey (2)
 17. GEN: Just a ramble.
 18. <No subject given> (2)
 19. REF/Re:  West Point Card Catalog
 20. CAP - question
 21. Alan Bullock
 22. REF/Re: West Point Card Catalog
 23. West Point Library On-Line -- Also available via Gopher
 24. Veterans' Day, 1993.
 25. David Irving -- Accountable and culpable!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 10 Nov 1993 22:22:23 EST
From:    S214000 <S214@NMUMUS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: CAP ?

Doug,
I know FCLP is short for field carrier landing practice. That and CAP
are some of the few constants that have remained the same since WWII. I
can check my references when I get home.

Mike Wilson<s214@NMUMUS.Bitnet>
Northern Michigan University
Marquette, Michigan

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Nov 1993 15:34:29 +1100
From:    Mick Fauchon <ulmjf@DEWEY.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: US tank naming

        Denis,

                Quite so. What is interesting is that the "romantic hero"
image seems rather to have been transferred to the air and naval branches
--- on both sides.

                                                                Cheers,

                                                                Mick.

--                                                                          --
Mick Fauchon                          | Internet: ulmjf@dewey.newcastle.edu.au
Reference Section, Auchmuty Library   | Ph  (intl+61+49) 215861
University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA    | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833


On Wed, 10 Nov 1993, Denis Ouellette, Indiana Univ wrote:

> Don't forget that the American Civil War generated a lot of interest
> in Europe at time, especially Britain.  Partly political, economic
> (Southern cotton feed the British textile mills - at least until they
> got from Egypt and India), most because sustained warfare with those
> kind of casulties had never been seen before.  Many of the battles
> were covered by British journalists and received front page coverage
> there.  I think it was one of the last wars that generated "romantic"
> heros - which certainly didn't happen for the British in WWI.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 10 Nov 1993 23:43:53 EST
From:    S214000 <S214@NMUMUS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Navajo code-talkers

Can anyone tell me a little more about the use of Navajo code-talkers
during World War II? I was just reading a book, not related to the war,
that just used the code-talkers as an example. Thanks
Mike Wilson<s214@NMUMUS.bitnet>
Northern Michigan University

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Nov 1993 00:42:10 EST
From:    "TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET" <TCWERNC%VCCSCENT.BITNET@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Request to be added as a user of List WWII-L

 Please add my name as a user of List WWII-L. I am a history instructor at
 Tidewater Community College, Portsmouth, VA., with a B.A. in History, and
 a M.A. in Military History and International Relations.

 Carl H. Wernke
 TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET
 Tidewater Community College
 Portsmouth, VA

 Thanks,
        Carl Wernke

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Nov 1993 10:41:52 +0200
From:    Chris Scogings <cscoging@UNPCS1.CS.UNP.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: Japanese planes

Thanks, Emmanuel, for the list of plane names.  I was interested to see
names for planes that didn't exist.  Is there any reason for naming non-
existant aircraft?

Chris
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Scogings                      Voice: (27) 331 955645
Computer Science Dept                 Fax: (27) 331 955599
University of Natal
Pietermaritzburg                   E-Mail:cscoging@unpcs1.cs.unp.ac.za
----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Nov 1993 04:10:38 EST
From:    "Denis Ouellette, Indiana Univ" <OUELLETT@UCS.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: tank naming

Richard-
The name Priest for the M7 SP gun came from the pulpit like machine gun
mount.  Bishop and Sexton I'm not sure of, but it seems like they just
continued the naming scheme. (Didn't Stalin call artillary the god of
war - so Priest seems like a good name).
The technical distinction of tanks for the British at the start of the
war was either cruisar tanks or infantry tanks. Neither really worked.
As they got a little better the distinction stopped and they tried to
produce something closer to true medium tank. The C names of course continue
to this day with the Centurian, Cheiftan and Challenger.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Nov 1993 05:06:18 EST
From:    Administrator_at_HUB__WFF@CCMAIL.GSFC.NASA.GOV
Subject: Message not deliverable

        The British were very flamboyant in their naming of war materials.  They
 also enjoyed renaming American products put into British service.  For example,
 the American Skytrain was renamed the Dakota by the British.

        Just a thought...

                        Joe Pohlmann
                        Monsanto Port Plastics
                        Process Systems Engineer
                        pohlmann@ppclus

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 10 Nov 1993 15:00:39 CST
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: RCAP

RCAP may also mean "Readied Combat Air Patrol."  John Lundstrom?

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Nov 1993 11:56:34 +0100
From:    Richard Harold Cummings <CUMMINGSR@ADMINA.RFERL.ORG>
Subject: David Irving

I am sure that David Irving's name is known to many on this list.
So here is the latest on him:

 munich, nov. 10 (nca/ap) - police in munich say controversial
british historian david irving has been ordered to leave germany.

police say irving, who has claimed that millions of jews did not
die in nazi gas chambers, has been given until midnight tonight
(munich time) to leave the country. they say he has notified
authorities through his lawyer that he will comply with the
order.

police said authorities decided to expel irving after it became
known that he planned to take part in radical rightist meetings
in connection with the 55th anniversary of "crystal night." in
the november 9-10, 1938 pogrom, nazi supporters destroyed
thousands of jewish shops and synagogues.

the expulsion order against irving was issued by the munich
authority responsible for foreigners. it said irving's books and
lectures defame the dead and his activities had the effect of
damaging germany's reputation abroad.


--==oo00oo==--
cummingsr@rferl.org
RFE/RL Inc
Munich,Germany

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Nov 1993 07:21:02 -0500
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 11 NOV 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
THURSDAY, 11 NOVEMBER 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  Beaufighter, Bristol
  F4U, Vought Corsair (USN)
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt

CENTRAL PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Seventh Air Force): Japanese aircraft
bomb Nanumea Island in the Ellice Islands, hitting the airfield and destroying
or damaging several airplanes, including 1 B-24.
  The 26th and 98th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), 11th Bombardment Group
(Heavy), transfer from Wheeler Field and Mokuleia, Territory of Hawaii
respectively to Nukufetau Island in the Ellice Islands with B-24's. They will
fly their first combat mission on 14 Nov.
  The 431st Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 11th Bombardment Group (Heavy),
transfers from Hickam Field, Territory of Hawaii to Funafuti Atoll in the
Ellice Islands. They will fly their first mission on 13 Nov.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 6 B-24's bomb the Burma Road about
375 miles (600 km) W of Tungling, producing a landslide and badly damaging the
road; 6 P-40's S of Yoyang knock out a gun emplacement and hit a radio
station, barracks, and hostels in the area; 8 more P-40's, on armed
reconnaissance in the Li-Chou-Ching-Shih area, strafe a pontoon bridge and
troops, and sink a river steamer, a motorboat, and several small supply boats.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ANTISUBMARINE OPERATIONS (First Air Force): The 479th Antisubmarine Group
and it's 4th, 6th, 19th and 22d Antisubmarine Squadrons (Heavy) are disbanded
at Podington, England.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): VIII Bomber Command Mission 127:
Two areas in Germany are targetted.
  1. 57 of 167 B-17's hit the marshalling yard at Munster at 1408 hours; 1
B-17 hits Cleve; the rest abort the mission because of bad weather that
hinders assembly; they claim 10-0-2 Luftwaffe aircraft; 4 B-17's are lost and
27 damaged; casualties are 4 WIA and 40 MIA.
  2. 180 B-17's, including 5 PFF aircraft, dispatched to Wesel, abort the
mission over the English Channel due to assembly difficulties and the presence
of heavy frontal cloud; 1 B-17 is damaged; no casualties.
  The two missions above are escorted to 59 P-38's and 342 P-47's; the P-47's
claim 8-1-2 Luftwaffe aircraft; 2 P-47's are lost and 1 is damaged; casualties
are 2 MIA.
  VIII Bomber Command Mission 128: 1 PFF B-17 is dispatched to Emmerich,
Germany but hits Rees at 2057 hours in an Oboe test.
  VIII Bomber Command Mission 129: 1 PFF B-17 hits Emmerich at 2115 in an Oboe
test.
  The 406th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 1st Bombardment Division, transfers
to Alconbury, England with B-24's. The squadron will begin flying CARPETBAGGER
missions on 5 Jan 44.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 157 B-26's bomb military
installations and targets of opportunity in the Cherbourg, France area,
mainly at Martinvast.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In France, 28 B-24's attack the
Annecy ball bearing plant and the viaduct at Antheor.
  HQ 47th Bombardment Wing (Medium) transfers from Hammamet, Tunisia to
Manduria, Italy.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, US and Royal Air Force
(RAF) light bombers and fighter-bombers, in support of the US Fifth and
British Eighth Armies, hit troop and gun concentrations and communications in
the Rocca and Palena areas; other Northwest African Tactical Air Force (NATAF)
aircraft bomb the town of Rocca, Bussi sul Tirino explosive works near Popoli,
and docks at Civitavecchia, and strafe strongpoints at Roccaraso and Atessa;
fighters hit motor transport in the coastal area between the Sangro and
Pescara Rivers.
  The 414th Night Fighter Squadron, 63d Fighter Wing, transfers from Rerhaia,
Algeria to Elmas, Sardinia with Beaufighters.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, a few B-25's and US Navy F4U's strafe barges and shore installations
in Matchin Bay on Bougainville Island. B-24's join Fifth Air Force, US Navy
carrier aircraft, and Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) airplanes in attack on
shipping in Rabaul harbor on New Britain Island; this is the Thirteenth's
first strike on Rabaul. Escorting fighters claim 17 Japanese fighters shot
down while the bombers claim 5.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): B-24's bomb Lakunai
airfield on New Britain Island. In New Guinea, P-39's strafe Bogadjim and
B-25's hit the Madang area.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Nov 1993 07:58:11 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: US tank naming

>On Tue, 9 Nov 1993 16:08:54 EST Larry & Kim Jewell said:
>>TWIHI (The Way I Heard It) was that a British tanker drove a recently arrived
>>Stuart around for a while, and pronounced that it was a "real honey" so they
>>named them Honey tanks. I've always thought the nicknames had more recognition
>>value than the "official" names.
>
> Crisp's driver, reported in =Brazen Chariots=.

  Thanks, I knew I'd read it somewhere, but lost track of the source. Do you
have the author, publisher, etc.?

> ken koester
> maint2@ers.bitnet

Larry J

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Nov 1993 08:41:44 EST
From:    Charles Reace <creace@ISD.CSC.COM>
Subject: Re: tank naming

> [from R. Kaplan] . . . What I'd like to know, is why the British came
> up with "Priest" and "Bishop" for self-propelled guns?

I believe this started when they received the M7 105mm SP Howitzer in
North Africa.  It had a distictive machine gun sponson at the front of
the hull, which might make one think of a  church pulpit.  This probably
started the trend when they called it the Priest, succeeded by the
British built Bishop and Canadian built Sexton.

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <creace@isd.csc.com>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Nov 1993 07:01:27 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: tank naming

Richard,


The name of that movie with Cagney that portrayed Admiral Halsey was
"The Gallant Hours". A great movie but a lousy soundtrack!

>From what I have read of the naming of the "Priest" was that its
protruding turret reminded the namer of a pulpit, hence the name.

The "Bishop", I will have to research.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Nov 1993 08:59:59 EST-500
From:    Carol Owen Bell <CAROLB@NOVELL.UR.UTK.EDU>
Subject: Re: mystery

>
> There is a book in print that tells one how to get locate anyone who
> had served at any time in the armed forces. I will get that info for
> you.
>
> Terry
>
> Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
> P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
> fax 806-371-5370
>

    What is this book?



Carol Bell
University of Tennessee-Knoxville
Office of University Relations
News Center

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Nov 1993 15:29:00 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVS2.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: Japanese planes

On Thu, 11 Nov 1993, Chris Scogings wrote:

> Thanks, Emmanuel, for the list of plane names.  I was interested to see
> names for planes that didn't exist.  Is there any reason for naming non-
> existant aircraft?

Simply bad intelligence. Little was known about Japanese aircraft when the
war began -- maybe they thought that it was all old junk, so why bother?
Code names were also given to numerous German and American aircraft
thought be in Japanese service, again based on the assumption that the
Japanese were incapable of designing high-performance aircraft. Reports to
the contrary -- from Chennault, among others -- were filed.

Emmanuel.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Nov 1993 09:55:16 EST
From:    Chuck McCormick <chuckm@AREC.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re[2]: US tank naming

On Wed, 10 Nov 1993, Denis Ouellette, Indiana Univ wrote:

> Don't forget that the American Civil War generated a lot of interest
> in Europe at time, especially Britain.  Partly political, economic
> (Southern cotton feed the British textile mills - at least until they
> got from Egypt and India), most because sustained warfare with those
> kind of casulties had never been seen before.  Many of the battles
> were covered by British journalists and received front page coverage
> there.  I think it was one of the last wars that generated "romantic"
> heros - which certainly didn't happen for the British in WWI.

You might also keep in mind that many American Army Bases (Forts) are named
after Civil War generals.  Perhaps the British were aware of this practice from
visits to the states?

Chuck
chuckm@arec.umd.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Nov 1993 06:57:31 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <riegsecker@UPS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Navajo code-talkers

Mike,

>Can anyone tell me a little more about the use of Navajo code-talkers
>during World War II? I was just reading a book, not related to the war,
>that just used the code-talkers as an example. Thanks
>Mike Wilson<s214@NMUMUS.bitnet>
>Northern Michigan University

The Smithsonian Institute Magazine had an article on them sometime within
the last 2-3 months.


John Riegsecker                                 (206) 756-3566
Dept of Math and Computer Science               riegsecker@ups.edu
University of Puget Sound

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Nov 1993 10:02:41 -0500
From:    "Sidney W. Kitchel" <kitchel@OCTOPUS.DPSI.COM>
Subject: Re: Navajo code-talkers

S214000 writes:
|->
|-> Can anyone tell me a little more about the use of Navajo code-talkers
|-> during World War II? I was just reading a book, not related to the war,
|-> that just used the code-talkers as an example. Thanks

        Well, I'm at work and all the interesting books are at home.
I've seen several books on the Navajo code-talkers. It was a group
thought up by a white guy (the son of a missionary, I think) who grew
up in Dinetah, Navajo country. He talked the Marines into recruiting
young Navajo men for code duty. They developed an actual code that
consisted of Navajo words that could be rapidly transmitted and
decoded, usually by voice. The Navajos served in the Pacific and had
some pretty amazing experiences on all the hot islands.
        There is a pictorial book that came out last year. The title
is something like _Navajo Warriers_. I also have a more text oriented
book that tells the story of the whole project. I'll try to post
citations later.
        Now, I can't resist reminding everyone of the Thunderbirds'
version of the same thing. This actually has had a little more
exposure than the NCT group. At least, the Cherokee communicators from
Oklahoma have appeared in a hollywood movie. They were used in Italy
to foil German wiretaps of US tactical phone lines. As far as I know,
the Thunderbird Div.'s use did not involve inventing an actual code.
They merely put a Cherokee speaker on each end of the phone line and let
them give details in Tsa-la-gi. Both the Germans and Japanese
apparently found breaking this system impossible. Indian warriors from
the Navajo, Cherokee, Osage, Creek, Choctaw, and many other tribes
made a valuable contribution to the US WWII effort both as talkers and
as fighters.
                                                        --Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel           kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Nov 1993 10:07:05 -0500
From:    "Sidney W. Kitchel" <kitchel@OCTOPUS.DPSI.COM>
Subject: GEN RE: WWII movies

Richard Kaplan writes:
|->
|-> My vote for better movie about the PTO is the one with Jimmy Cagney portraying
|-> Admiral Halsey; but I forget the title (is it Above and Beyond)?

        I like this one too. But if the question is "best", I'll have
to go with _Tora! Tora! Tora!_. The intermixing of American and
Japanese casts was great. And I'm a fan of Yamamura Soh. I think he's
a pretty good actor.

                                                        --Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel           kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Nov 1993 08:50:21 -0400
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: RAF vs USAAF heavy bombardment

A student friend of mine has been tasked with defending in a debate
the RAF's heavy bombardment tactics in Europe, while others in the
class will defend the USAAF's tactics.  I suggested to him that he
should be prepared to discuss target selection, bombing tonnage and
accuracy, civilian casualties and effect on morale, and aircraft
defensive capabilities and loss rates.  He has a week or two to
prepare for the debate.

I suggested that he read Alexander McKee's book "Dresden 1945:  The
Devil's Tinderbox" for insight on what was probably the most
infamous of the RAF's raids.

Anyone care to impart pearls of wisdom on these, or other related
topics?  You can reply directly to me if you wish, my friend is
not on the net.

Bullet statements are prefered over actual bullets!  :-)

Dennis E. Sparks
SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Nov 1993 10:15:56 EST
From:    Robert E George <regeorge@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Subject: REF: Navajo Code Talkers

"Navajo Code Talkers: a few good men"
Smithsonian, August 1993, Volume XXIV, Number 5
pp. 34 - 45
text by Bruce Watson, photos by Kenji Kawano


Rob George

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Nov 1993 11:40:21 EST
From:    "William B. Thacker" <wbt@CBEMF.ATT.COM>
Subject: Re: tank naming

Richard Kaplan writes:

>         From what I remember reading about British habits in naming their
> vehicles, the pattern depended on the tank's role.  Recon, or real armor.
> The pattern I recall involved light to medium tanks with C names: Cromwell,
> Crusader and Comet.  The Churchill obviously doesn't fit here, but that may
> have been a popular rather than official designation.

Correct.  The way it seems to have worked is that all Cruiser tanks (what
most armies would have called medium tanks, but with an emphasis on speed
over armor and armament) began with C.  The earliers cruisers, A10 and A13,
never got names.  There followed the Covenanter, Crusader, Centaur,
Cromwell, Comet, and Challenger (WWII, not the modern one), among others.

Infantry tanks and light tanks apparently had no convention.  Matilda was
named after a cartoon duck because of its awkward appearance.  Vickers
tanks were named with V-words; Valentine, Valiant, etc.  The Churchill's
name was apparently a morale-driven decision, and Black Prince would have
been a variant had it got to production.

SP artillery got religious names; Bishop (25pr on a Valentine hull),
Priest, Deacon, Sexton.

The only named Light Tank that comes to mind is the airborne Tetrach (a
term used for a Roman "prince"). Of course, British light tank development
halted with the Mk VI, anyway, so was done before names started to be used.

Armored cars were named after either the manufacturer (Humber, Daimler,
etc), or, later, after dogs  (Staghound, Dingo, Boarhound, Greyhound).

Archer seems to have been a once-off name (17pr mounted backwards on a
Valentine chassis), but then, both it and Achilles (17-pr on an M10) start
with A.  A = Antitank?  I don't see any pattern or reason for Firefly.

With the introduction of the Centurion at the end of the war, the Infantry
and Cruiser tanks officially merged.  Apparently they opted to keep with
the cruiser naming convention, hence to Chieftain and Challenger.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
(614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              wbt@cbemf.att.com
                      Humpty Dumpty was pushed!

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Nov 1993 12:09:31 -0500
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USS New Jersey

For those of you in New Jersey plus eastern Pennsylvania, southern New
York, Delaware and perhaps Maryland and Connecticut, the New Jersey
Network, our state PBS stations, is broadcasting a 30 minute show
tonight, Thursday, November 11, about the battleship New Jersey.
According to the TV schedule in the NY Times, the shows will air at
8:30-9 PM and repeat at 10-10:30 PM.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Nov 1993 11:11:23 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: mystery

Date sent:      Thu, 11 Nov 1993 08:59:59 EST-500
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
From:           Carol Owen Bell <CAROLB@NOVELL.UR.UTK.EDU>
Subject:        Re: mystery
Originally to:  WWII-L%UBVM.BITNET@utkvm1.utk.edu
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

>
> There is a book in print that tells one how to get locate anyone who
> had served at any time in the armed forces. I will get that info for
> you.
>
   What is this book?



Carol,

Thanks for answering and for your patience. I will get that for you
today. It just slipped my mind that I was going to get that for you.
I am sorry about that, and will comply today.

Terry


Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Nov 1993 11:13:21 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: tank naming

Date sent:      Thu, 11 Nov 1993 04:10:38 EST
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
From:           "Denis Ouellette, Indiana Univ" <OUELLETT@UCS.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject:        Re: tank naming
Originally to:  WWII-L%UBVM.BITNET@UICVM.UIC.EDU
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

Richard-
The name Priest for the M7 SP gun came from the pulpit like machine gun
mount.  Bishop and Sexton I'm not sure of, but it seems like they just
continued the naming scheme. (Didn't Stalin call artillary the god of
war - so Priest seems like a good name).
The technical distinction of tanks for the British at the start of the
war was either cruisar tanks or infantry tanks. Neither really worked.
As they got a little better the distinction stopped and they tried to
produce something closer to true medium tank. The C names of course continue
to this day with the Centurian, Cheiftan and Challenger.


Denis,

For my part, thanks for the post. Stalin was quoted as saying that
"Artillery is the queen of the battlefield."

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Nov 1993 11:15:17 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: US tank naming

Date sent:      Thu, 11 Nov 1993 07:58:11 EST
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
From:           Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject:        Re: US tank naming
Originally to:  WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

>On Tue, 9 Nov 1993 16:08:54 EST Larry & Kim Jewell said:
>>TWIHI (The Way I Heard It) was that a British tanker drove a recently arrived
>>Stuart around for a while, and pronounced that it was a "real honey" so they
>>named them Honey tanks. I've always thought the nicknames had more recognition
>>value than the "official" names.
>
> Crisp's driver, reported in =Brazen Chariots=.

  Thanks, I knew I'd read it somewhere, but lost track of the source. Do you
have the author, publisher, etc.?


Larry,

I have that book in my library. It is a paperback by Ballantine
Books, and it appeared in the mid to late 60's. I will have to get
you the author's name. I read it many years ago.

I will get back to you, if someone else doesn't provide the info
first.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Nov 1993 11:24:50 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: David Irving

Date sent:      Thu, 11 Nov 1993 11:56:34 +0100
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
From:           Richard Harold Cummings <CUMMINGSR@ADMINA.RFERL.ORG>
Organization:   Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty Inc.
Subject:        David Irving
Originally to:  WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

Richard,

I was aware that David Irving was regarded as a radical of the right,
but I wasn't  aware that he had "flipped out", as this article
suggests. I can't believe that he has taken that position! :-(. I
have read several of his books, and have been most impressed with his
research, particularly those of his earlier works.

What is this world coming to? How can anyone even remotely imagine
that such an horrendous act against humanity didn't occur? I guess it
takes all kinds.

I heard quite a bit about this growing attitude in Germany that the
Holocaust didn't happen or was the "greatest hoax of the 20th century"
while on a visit to Germany this past summer. This attitude was
perpetrated, as I understand it, by non-German's. If anyone has
another slant on this, I would be most interested to hear it. Perhaps
it is all connected to the rise of the radical right in that country.
I just don't know.

However, with regard to David Irving, I can't believe that he has
fallen so low and into such disrepute. The German Government is right
to ask him to leave the country, and his adherence to such an
attitude is a disgrace to all concerned, and it does no honor to his
credentials.

Terry

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I am sure that David Irving's name is known to many on this list.
So here is the latest on him:

 munich, nov. 10 (nca/ap) - police in munich say controversial
british historian david irving has been ordered to leave germany.

police say irving, who has claimed that millions of jews did not
die in nazi gas chambers, has been given until midnight tonight
(munich time) to leave the country. they say he has notified
authorities through his lawyer that he will comply with the
order.

police said authorities decided to expel irving after it became
known that he planned to take part in radical rightist meetings
in connection with the 55th anniversary of "crystal night." in
the november 9-10, 1938 pogrom, nazi supporters destroyed
thousands of jewish shops and synagogues.

the expulsion order against irving was issued by the munich
authority responsible for foreigners. it said irving's books and
lectures defame the dead and his activities had the effect of
damaging germany's reputation abroad.


--==oo00oo==--
cummingsr@rferl.org
RFE/RL Inc
Munich,Germany

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Nov 1993 11:45:23 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: mystery

Date sent:      Thu, 11 Nov 1993 08:59:59 EST-500
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
From:           Carol Owen Bell <CAROLB@NOVELL.UR.UTK.EDU>
Subject:        Re: mystery
Originally to:  WWII-L%UBVM.BITNET@utkvm1.utk.edu
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>


Carol,

Here is the information on the book, I had mentioned earlier to you.

    How to Locate Anyone Who is or has been in the Military by Lt.-
Col. Michael S. Johnson, Military Information Enterprises at Fort Sam
Houston. ISBN 1-877639-07-9.

Hope this helps.

Terry





 >
> There is a book in print that tells one how to get locate anyone who
> had served at any time in the armed forces. I will get that info for
> you.
>
> Terry
>
> Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
> P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
> fax 806-371-5370
>

    What is this book?



Carol Bell
University of Tennessee-Knoxville
Office of University Relations
News Center


Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Nov 1993 12:23:38 CST
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: GEN: Just a ramble.

It was almost to the day, but in checking the data plate, we noticed that
yesterday (Veteran's Day -1 day) was the 49th birthday of the B-25 airframe
that would become Miss Mitchell.

I hope I have that much energy when _my_ "airframe" pushes 50.  :-)

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Nov 1993 13:24:08 -0500
From:    "Sidney W. Kitchel" <kitchel@OCTOPUS.DPSI.COM>
Subject: <No subject given>

>From kitchel Thu Nov 11 10:02:40 1993 remote from barracuda
Subject: Re: Navajo code-talkers
To: WWII-L@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1993 10:02:40 -0500 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <no.id> from "S214000" at Nov 10, 93 11:43:53 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL0]
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 1999
Sender: kitchel

S214000 writes:
|->
|-> Can anyone tell me a little more about the use of Navajo code-talkers
|-> during World War II? I was just reading a book, not related to the war,
|-> that just used the code-talkers as an example. Thanks

        Well, I'm at work and all the interesting books are at home.
I've seen several books on the Navajo code-talkers. It was a group
thought up by a white guy (the son of a missionary, I think) who grew
up in Dinetah, Navajo country. He talked the Marines into recruiting
young Navajo men for code duty. They developed an actual code that
consisted of Navajo words that could be rapidly transmitted and
decoded, usually by voice. The Navajos served in the Pacific and had
some pretty amazing experiences on all the hot islands.
        There is a pictorial book that came out last year. The title
is something like _Navajo Warriers_. I also have a more text oriented
book that tells the story of the whole project. I'll try to post
citations later.
        Now, I can't resist reminding everyone of the Thunderbirds'
version of the same thing. This actually has had a little more
exposure than the NCT group. At least, the Cherokee communicators from
Oklahoma have appeared in a hollywood movie. They were used in Italy
to foil German wiretaps of US tactical phone lines. As far as I know,
the Thunderbird Div.'s use did not involve inventing an actual code.
They merely put a Cherokee speaker on each end of the phone line and let
them give details in Tsa-la-gi. Both the Germans and Japanese
apparently found breaking this system impossible. Indian warriors from
the Navajo, Cherokee, Osage, Creek, Choctaw, and many other tribes
made a valuable contribution to the US WWII effort both as talkers and
as fighters.
                                                        --Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel           kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Nov 1993 13:24:24 -0500
From:    "Sidney W. Kitchel" <kitchel@OCTOPUS.DPSI.COM>
Subject: <No subject given>

>From kitchel Thu Nov 11 10:07:04 1993 remote from barracuda
Subject: GEN RE: WWII movies
To: WWII-L@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1993 10:07:04 -0500 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <no.id> from "Richard Kaplan" at Nov 10, 93 08:41:15 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL0]
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 671
Sender: kitchel

Richard Kaplan writes:
|->
|-> My vote for better movie about the PTO is the one with Jimmy Cagney portraying
|-> Admiral Halsey; but I forget the title (is it Above and Beyond)?

        I like this one too. But if the question is "best", I'll have
to go with _Tora! Tora! Tora!_. The intermixing of American and
Japanese casts was great. And I'm a fan of Yamamura Soh. I think he's
a pretty good actor.

                                                        --Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel           kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Nov 1993 13:39:39 EST
From:    Charles Reace <creace@ISD.CSC.COM>
Subject: REF/Re:  West Point Card Catalog

Has anybody been able to connect to the West Point library card
catalog per the earlier message.  I've tried telnet'ing to the explicit
address 129.29.90.100, and also tried telnet'ing to LIBRARY.USMA.EDU,
which I got from GOPHER and which tries the above address as well as
two others.  I always get a "host unreachable" message for each address
and never connect.  Am I missing something, or has nobody else been
able to connect?

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <creace@isd.csc.com>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Nov 1993 11:34:33 -0700
From:    Doug Cahoon <dcahoon@DSD.ES.COM>
Subject: Re: CAP - question

Thanks to all that have responded to my question about
Abbreviations in my uncle's flight log book. It has been
very helpful. Here is what I have heard so far:

I think everyone agrees that CAP = Combat Air Patrol
others are...
Z = Zone or Zebra (now Zulu, ie Greenwich Mean Time)
JACK= Code name for Japanese aircraft, J2M Raiden
  fighter-interceptor, or JACC (Joint Airborne Communications
  Center), or Jack' was Mitsubishi J2M Raiden.
CL = Carrier Landing, or USN designation for a light cruise.
FCLP= Field Carrier Landing Practice,
RCAP=Readied Combat Air Patrol, or Recon Combat Air Patrol, or
  Rescue CAP (to protect downed pilots), or RCA: Reach Cruising Altitude.
GB= General Board?

I think that is all of them. Some make perfect sense. But it should be
remembered that these abbreviations were logged in his log book.
In the front of the book he has a translation for some of the "Character
of Flight" codes:
B-1 = Instructions elimination flight training.
B =                                    "             "          "
CK= Checks A, B, C, etc.
E= Familiarization.
F= Gunnery
G= Bombing
J = Scouting
K = Tactical
L = Navigational
M = Transportation
N = Ferrying
P = Photographic
R = Test
T = Administration
U = Extended
V= Instrument
W = Emergency
X = Communication
Y = Night Flying (red ink)

He has listed many of the training type codes during his
stateside training, then he adds others that are not
listed (ones asked about, and listed above) once
he is aboard ship. He also lists in his book Cat. Shot
in the remarks area. In one place he spells out Catapult
Shot. Why would he mention this... I assume they did not
use this method unless the top of the carrier was full???

Any other thoughts would be helpful.

Thanks again,

Doug Cahoon

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Nov 1993 12:43:02 -0600
From:    Sandra Torres <storres@SUN.CIS.SMU.EDU>
Subject: Alan Bullock

My name is Sandra Torres and I am new to the list.  I've been lurking for
about a week enjoying all the information, but now I need some serious help.
Can anyone refer me to any analysis/criticism of _Study in Tyranny_.
I have searched several indexes and have not come up with much yet.  Its
such an incredible book, there has to be s/t out there about it.  I am
working against a deadline that has already passed, so the sooner the better.
E-mail me directly or to the list if s/o else might be interested.  Either
way I will be forever grateful.

Sandra Torres <storres@sun.cis.smu.edu>
History Dept./SMU
Dallas, TX

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Nov 1993 14:48:32 -0500
From:    "Sidney W. Kitchel" <kitchel@OCTOPUS.DPSI.COM>
Subject: GEN RE: WWII movies

kitchel writes:
>From kitchel Thu Nov 11 10:07:04 1993
Subject: GEN RE: WWII movies
To: WWII-L@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1993 10:07:04 -0500 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <no.id> from "Richard Kaplan" at Nov 10, 93 08:41:15 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL0]
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 671

Richard Kaplan writes:
|->
|-> My vote for better movie about the PTO is the one with Jimmy Cagney portraying
|-> Admiral Halsey; but I forget the title (is it Above and Beyond)?

        I like this one too. But if the question is "best", I'll have
to go with _Tora! Tora! Tora!_. The intermixing of American and
Japanese casts was great. And I'm a fan of Yamamura Soh. I think he's
a pretty good actor.

                                                        --Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel           kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121


--
Sidney W. Kitchel           kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Nov 1993 14:48:53 -0500
From:    "Sidney W. Kitchel" <kitchel@OCTOPUS.DPSI.COM>
Subject: Re: Navajo code-talkers

kitchel writes:
>From kitchel Thu Nov 11 10:02:40 1993
Subject: Re: Navajo code-talkers
To: WWII-L@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1993 10:02:40 -0500 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <no.id> from "S214000" at Nov 10, 93 11:43:53 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL0]
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 1999

S214000 writes:
|->
|-> Can anyone tell me a little more about the use of Navajo code-talkers
|-> during World War II? I was just reading a book, not related to the war,
|-> that just used the code-talkers as an example. Thanks

        Well, I'm at work and all the interesting books are at home.
I've seen several books on the Navajo code-talkers. It was a group
thought up by a white guy (the son of a missionary, I think) who grew
up in Dinetah, Navajo country. He talked the Marines into recruiting
young Navajo men for code duty. They developed an actual code that
consisted of Navajo words that could be rapidly transmitted and
decoded, usually by voice. The Navajos served in the Pacific and had
some pretty amazing experiences on all the hot islands.
        There is a pictorial book that came out last year. The title
is something like _Navajo Warriers_. I also have a more text oriented
book that tells the story of the whole project. I'll try to post
citations later.
        Now, I can't resist reminding everyone of the Thunderbirds'
version of the same thing. This actually has had a little more
exposure than the NCT group. At least, the Cherokee communicators from
Oklahoma have appeared in a hollywood movie. They were used in Italy
to foil German wiretaps of US tactical phone lines. As far as I know,
the Thunderbird Div.'s use did not involve inventing an actual code.
They merely put a Cherokee speaker on each end of the phone line and let
them give details in Tsa-la-gi. Both the Germans and Japanese
apparently found breaking this system impossible. Indian warriors from
the Navajo, Cherokee, Osage, Creek, Choctaw, and many other tribes
made a valuable contribution to the US WWII effort both as talkers and
as fighters.
                                                        --Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel           kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121


--
Sidney W. Kitchel           kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Nov 1993 15:07:14 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <kc5318@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: RAF vs USAAF heavy bombardment

>A student friend of mine has been tasked with defending in a debate
>the RAF's heavy bombardment tactics in Europe, while others in the
>class will defend the USAAF's tactics.  I suggested to him that he
>should be prepared to discuss target selection, bombing tonnage and
>accuracy, civilian casualties and effect on morale, and aircraft
>defensive capabilities and loss rates.  He has a week or two to
>prepare for the debate.
>
>I suggested that he read Alexander McKee's book "Dresden 1945:  The
>Devil's Tinderbox" for insight on what was probably the most
>infamous of the RAF's raids.
>
>Anyone care to impart pearls of wisdom on these, or other related
>topics?  You can reply directly to me if you wish, my friend is
>not on the net.
>
>Bullet statements are prefered over actual bullets!  :-)
>
>Dennis E. Sparks
>SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU
>Lexington, Kentucky
>

Dennis,
     I have two suggestions for those defending the positions:

     For AAF, read my book (BOMBS, CITIES, AND CIVILIANS) and Ken Werrell's Dec
1986 article in Journal of American History.

     For RAF, read John Terraine's A TIME FOR COURAGE.

     I apologize for plugging my book, but to some extent it defends US
tactics, and it is about the only recent book to do so.  The RAF side might
find it useful, also, as I outline why the AAF was very understanding of the
RAF position.

                                        LTC Conrad Crane
                                        USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Nov 1993 15:12:46 EST
From:    Charles Reace <creace@ISD.CSC.COM>
Subject: Re: GEN RE: WWII movies

How about "In Harm's Way"?  Sure, it's a lot of pro US propaganda, but
it does cover a lot of the Pacific theater in entertaining fashion.  But
my favorite Pacific theater movie has to be "The Wackiest Ship in the Army",
closely followed by "Mr. Roberts", or maybe vice versa.  B^)

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <creace@isd.csc.com>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Nov 1993 17:38:49 EST
From:    Charles Reace <creace@ISD.CSC.COM>
Subject: Re: USS New Jersey

I saw this show when it first aired.  It's worth a look.

I work with a man who served a couple years on the NJ maybe 6-7 years
ago (?).  To hear him talk, it's a shame we don't build them that way
anymore!

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <creace@isd.csc.com>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 12 Nov 1993 07:12:00 +0700
From:    "Peter E. Beal" <beal@NWG.NECTEC.OR.TH>
Subject: Re: REF/Re: West Point Card Catalog

On Thu, 11 Nov 1993, Charles Reace wrote:

> Has anybody been able to connect to the West Point library card
> catalog per the earlier message.  I've tried telnet'ing to the explicit
> address 129.29.90.100, and also tried telnet'ing to LIBRARY.USMA.EDU,
> which I got from GOPHER and which tries the above address as well as
> two others.  I always get a "host unreachable" message for each address
> and never connect.  Am I missing something, or has nobody else been
> able to connect?
>
>   __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <creace@isd.csc.com>
> _|   _|   _|     |
>  |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
>  ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057
>
I got "No Route to Host".   Any solution?

Peter E. Beal

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Nov 1993 14:14:10 CST
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Re: West Point Library On-Line -- Also available via Gopher

As well as many other major libraries' catalogs.  When the statewide Illinois
  online catalog crashes, I go to another state to use theirs and find
  standard shelf numbers (at least for recent books).

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Nov 1993 14:35:31 CST
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Veterans' Day, 1993.

A nice post, Larry, even for those of us who only defended the Ft. Bliss
  Post Laundry with our very lives, Christmas Eve, 1967.

So why am I working?

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Nov 1993 18:09:34 CST
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: David Irving -- Accountable and culpable!

'Nice to see SOMEone nailing him for historical falsification.  How about
  historians?

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Nov 1993 18:45:46 CST
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Re: RAF vs USAAF heavy bombardment

Dennis,

     Extenuating considerations on behalf of British "area bombing:"

1. The Germans had indiscriminately terror-bombed them (and countless other,
  more innocent, peoples).

2. Feeling the consequences of mass (terror-)bombing themselves was the one
  best way for the Germans to learn what the war they were waging on others
  was really like.  (Bellicosity is difficult when you are trying to put
  the fire in your own house out.)

3. According to Speer, the Hamburg firebombing DID break the will of the
  Hamburgers for some months and Germany's morale could have faltered if
  Germany's morale could have faltered if the mass bombing had been
  extended to other cities.

4. Hitting back in kind was vital to Allied morale.

5. The Germans were forced to expend resources to the extent that we had a
  Second Front (which the Soviets were screaming for) in the air.

More, later.

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Nov 1993 20:26:06 EST
From:    IO20011@MAINE.BITNET
Subject: Re: RAF vs USAAF heavy bombardment

sign off WWII-L

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 10 Nov 1993 to 11 Nov 1993
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There are 34 messages totalling 1247 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. PTO movies
  2. RAF vs USAAF heavy bombardment (14)
  3. USAAF 12 NOV 43
  4. Shuttle Bases In USSR
  5. REF Re: Navajo code-talkers
  6. RAF vs USAAF/ Me ??? Nightfighters
  7. Navajo code-talkers (2)
  8. Guy Sajer
  9. GEN RE: WWII movies
 10. Veterans' Day, 1993. (2)
 11. USAAF 13-14 NOV 43
 12. tank naming
 13. David Irving
 14. US tank naming
 15. REF/Re: West Point Card Catalog
 16. "Hoax of the Twentieth Century"
 17. "In Harm's Way" ??!!
 18. Robert Clary speech
 19. Veteran's Day

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Nov 1993 20:57:28 CST
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: PTO movies

I(

I'll go with THIN RED LINE, TORA x 3, TASK FORCE (the one with Gary Cooper
  as the naval air officer, anyway), and FATHER GOOSE!!

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 12 Nov 1993 12:02:18 +0200
From:    Chris Scogings <cscoging@UNPCS1.CS.UNP.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: RAF vs USAAF heavy bombardment

>From Lou Coatney

>Extenuating considerations on behalf of British "area bombing:"
>[stuff deleted]

Lou, I agree with your reasons here, but it all sounds a bit weak, doesn't
it.  "They bombed us so we'll bomb them" is not the most defensible argument
- esp. against the USAAF reasons of accuracy, minimising civilian
casualties, etc.  There must be something else....

Chris
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Scogings                      Voice: (27) 331 955645
Computer Science Dept                 Fax: (27) 331 955599
University of Natal
Pietermaritzburg                   E-Mail:cscoging@unpcs1.cs.unp.ac.za
----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 12 Nov 1993 07:18:25 -0500
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 12 NOV 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
FRIDAY, 12 NOVEMBER 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss

CENTRAL PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Seventh Air Force): HQ 30th Bombardment
Group (Heavy) and it's 38th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy) transfer from Hickam
Field and Kahuku, Territory of Hawaii respectively to Nanumea Island in the
Ellice Islands with B-24's. The 38th will fly it's first mission on 16 Nov.
  The air echelon of the 26th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 11th Bombardment
Group (Heavy), based on Nukufetau Island in the Ellice Islands begins
operating from Canton Island in the Phoenix Islands with B-24's. The squadron
will fly it's first mission on 14 Nov.
  The 819th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 30th Bombardment Group (Heavy),
transfers from Barking Sands to Wheeler Field, Territory of Hawaii with
B-24's. The 819th supplies the group with replacement crews and aircraft.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 2 B-24's mine the Rangoon River
during the night of 12/13 Nov.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 10 B-25's and 24 P-40's attack
Yoyang, hitting the warehouse area, railroad yards, and AA positions; 5 B-25's
bomb the Yangchi Kang waterfront area and attack waterfront targets at Puchi;
6 B-25's and 12 fighters hit targets at Yoyang; 15 P-40's and a B-25 on armed
reconnaissance hit several targets of opportunity in the Lungling area and
between Yang-Chia-Kang and Sichai.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): HQ Ninth Air Force issues Tables of
Organization for the IX Fighter Command, authorizing 2 air support divisions,
5 fighter wings, 1 reconnaissance group, 21 fighter groups, and 65 fighter
squadrons. 3 combat wings are activated for the IX Bomber Command: the 97th
Combat Bombardment Wing (Medium) at Marks Hall which will control light bomber
groups; the 98th Combat Bombardment Wing (Medium), formerly the 3d Bombardment
Wing, at Earls Colne; and the 99th Combat Bombardment Wing (Medium), formerly
the 44th Bombardment Wing (Heavy), at Great Dunmow.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Italy, B-26's attack railroad
bridges and tracks in the Montalto di Castro and Orbetello areas, but heavy
cloud cover prevents effective hits on the targets. P-38's fly an air-sea
rescue patrol off the mouth of the Semeni River in Albania.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, Northwest African
Tactical Bomber Force (NATBF) light bombers hit guns, troops, and railway
facilities near Palena, the town of Atina, and the road at Acquafondata.
Medium bombers hit the Berat/Kucove airfield and an oil refinery in Albania
after failing to locate targets near Athens, Greece. In Italy during the night
of 12/13 Nov, light bombers attack the Arezzo marshalling yard and Perugia
airfield; fighter-bombers of the XII Air Support Command and Royal Air Force
(RAF) Desert Air Force (DAF) continue to provide close support to the US Fifth
and British Eighth Armies, blasting gun positions and motor transport, and
also attacking targets (aircraft, guns, rail yards, bridge, and trains) around
Bracciano Lake, Orbetello, Rieti, Sant'Elia Fiumerapido, Opuzen, Ancona, and
Iesi.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): On Bougainville
Island in the Solomon Islands, 18 B-25's bomb Tarlena; 6 others bomb the
Matchin Bay area; and 8 P-38's strafe Bonis airfield.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea,
B-25's and B-26's bomb villages between Finschhafen and Saidor. B-24's attack
targets on Java and on Amboina Island in the Moluccas Islands. On this date,
following a series of damaging allied strikes, the Japanese remove their
carrier aircraft from Rabaul, New Britain Island, which afterwards ceases to
be a serious threat to Allied forces.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 12 Nov 1993 07:37:59 -0500
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: Shuttle Bases In USSR

Several days ago, someone asked about the bases in the USSR used by
the Eighth and Fifteenth Air Force heavy bombers on shuttle raids
from England and Italy respectively.  I had some time last night
and I found three bases in the Ukraine listed for the missions
during the summer/fall of 1944.  According to my atlas, all three
are essentially on a straight line running SSE from Kiev.  The
bombers used Mirgorod, 130 miles (208 km) SSE of Kiev, and Poltava,
200 miles (320 km) SSE of Kiev.  The escorting US fighters used
Piryatin, 80 miles (128 km) SSE of Kiev.  (All distances are
approximate!)

Hope this helps.  I am also trying to determine if any Polish areas
were targetted in 1945 but it may take some time to complete this
review.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 12 Nov 1993 10:02:35 -0330
From:    Shawn Kenny <skenny@ENGR.MUN.CA>
Subject: Re: RAF vs USAAF heavy bombardment

>
> >From Lou Coatney
>
> >Extenuating considerations on behalf of British "area bombing:"
> >[stuff deleted]
>
> Lou, I agree with your reasons here, but it all sounds a bit weak, doesn't
> it.  "They bombed us so we'll bomb them" is not the most defensible argument
> - esp. against the USAAF reasons of accuracy, minimising civilian
> casualties, etc.  There must be something else....

Although I do not profess to have great knowledge in this area I agree
that there must be something else.. and I think it would be the
availability of long range fighters to escort the bombers which would be
essential for daylight raids.  Also, not untill the Germans developed the
Me-?? night fighter did they encounter any major losses - the losses were
still great but it is must be viewed on a comparative basis.
Incidentally, what was the difference in accuracy between day and night
bombing raids?



--
"Life is full of surprises, but never when you need one."
                        skenny@engr.mun.ca St. John's, NF Canada

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 12 Nov 1993 08:46:19 -0500
From:    "Sidney W. Kitchel" <kitchel@OCTOPUS.DPSI.COM>
Subject: REF Re: Navajo code-talkers

        This is a follow-up to the question seeking info. about the
Navajo Code Talkers. Here are the two books I have:

        Doris A. Paul, _The Navajo Code Talkers_, Pittsburgh: Dorrance
                Publishing Co., [1973].  ISBN: 0-8059-1870-1
                (I bought this at the Information Center at Canyon de
                 Chelly National Monument.)

        Kenji Kawano, _Warriors: Navajo Code Talkers_, [Flagstaff]:
                Northland Publishing Company, [1990].
                ISBN: 0-87358-513-5

The inventor of the NCT idea was Philip Johnston, who at age 4 moved
with his missionary parents to the Navajo Reservation. Philip grew up
speaking Navajo and sold the Marine Corps on the idea of using Navajos
as talkers.
                                                        --Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel           kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 12 Nov 1993 09:02:36 EST
From:    Mike Long <MLONG@UCONNVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: RAF vs USAAF/ Me ??? Nightfighters

On Fri, 12 Nov 1993 10:02:35 -0330 Shawn Kenny said:
>essential for daylight raids.  Also, not untill the Germans developed the
>Me-?? night fighter did they encounter any major losses - the losses were

This leads me to ask which of Germany's nightfighter types was the most
successful. Me110? Ju88? I know they used Me110s Me210s Me262s Ju88s; what
other types were used? Who was the most successful nightfighter pilot?

Mike Long
UNIVERSITY OF CONNECTICUT
196 AUDITORIUM ROAD, U-138    |   BITNET: MLONG@UCONNVM.BITNET
STORRS, CONNECTICUT, USA      | INTERNET: MLONG@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU
                   06269-3138 |    PHONE: (203) 486-1352

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 12 Nov 1993 08:39:23 -0600
From:    Glenn Millard <A_MILLARDGD@CCSVAX.SFASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: RAF vs USAAF heavy bombardment

If I remember past books I have read the British tried daylight bombing for
a short while and determined it was too costly, the Battle of Britian was
also a good example. That is one of the main reasons they switched to night
bombing. Because of the inaccuracy of night bombing they aimed at cities,
industrial cities mainly. The industry consists not only of the buildings
but also the people that work there.
The British also tried to convince the USAAF to give up daylight bombing and
help them with night bombing. However, USAAF leaders were confident with
their aircraft and the Norden bombsight and would not give up their
concept.
One consideration to include is how much commitment the German air force
had to make to counter daylight and night bombing. I am sure the daylight
commitment was much greater than that to night bombing. In the long-term,
daylight bombing did more to bring down the Luftwaffe than night bombing
ever did. Agree with this or disagree?

Glenn Millard
Academic Computing
Stephen F. Austin State University
Internet: a_millardgd@ccsvax.sfasu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 12 Nov 1993 09:46:21 EST
From:    Charles Reace <creace@ISD.CSC.COM>
Subject: Re: RAF vs USAAF heavy bombardment

> Incidentally, what was the difference in accuracy between day and night
> bombing raids?

I have heard numbers suggesting that the circular error probable (CEP),
which is the radius at which 50% of the bombs would be within from the
target point was on the order of *two miles* for the British night
bombing attacks.  As bad as this sounds, the US *precision* daylight
bombing supposedly had a CEP of about 1 mile.

I'm quoting these numbers off the cuff from hearsay.  Does anybody have
any reliable numbers on this, preferably not from USAAF/RAF studies, but
some relatively independent source?

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <creace@isd.csc.com>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 12 Nov 1993 15:37:46 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVSDS.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: RAF vs USAAF heavy bombardment

> A student friend of mine has been tasked with defending in a debate
> the RAF's heavy bombardment tactics in Europe, while others in the
> class will defend the USAAF's tactics.  I suggested to him that he
> should be prepared to discuss target selection, bombing tonnage and
> accuracy, civilian casualties and effect on morale, and aircraft
> defensive capabilities and loss rates.  He has a week or two to
> prepare for the debate.

* The British flew at night because they had experienced heavy losses at
  day. This was correct. The U.S. belief that bombers like the B-17 and
  B-24 could defend themselves was entirely mistaken. No long-range escort
  fighters were available at the time.

* The British nor the US offensive had much effect on the German
  production, until late in 1944. The greater accuracy of day bombardments
  was wasted because of the problems with the identificantion and
  selection of targets.
  Typical are the Schweinfurt and Regensburg raids, that were planned
  on incorrect information: these factories were important but not
  essential.

* The British bombers carried more and heavier bombs than the US ones. At
  a cost per bomb weight basis, the British offensive was more effective.
  The heavy armament carried by the USAAF day bombers contributed to
  restrict their bomb load.

* Night flying did not require close formations. When the low-level
  marking technique was introduced late in the war, this allowed night
  bombardments to be more precise than high-level daylight attacks.

* Night attacks allowed a better use of the Allied superiority in radar
  development. Twin-engined night fighters with a crew of two or three
  and radar equipment were most costly to the German war effort than
  single-seat day fighters.

Any other ideas?

Emmanuel.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 12 Nov 1993 09:49:47 -0500
From:    "M. Joseph Barone" <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: Navajo code-talkers

"Sidney W. Kitchel" <kitchel@OCTOPUS.DPSI.COM> writes:
> ... They [Cherokee communicators] were used in Italy
> to foil German wiretaps of US tactical phone lines. As far as I know,
> the Thunderbird Div.'s use did not involve inventing an actual code.
> They merely put a Cherokee speaker on each end of the phone line and let
> them give details in Tsa-la-gi. Both the Germans and Japanese
> apparently found breaking this system impossible.

        Does the US military still consider the various Amerind languages
as secure or was this practice ended with WWII?

        Also, I should mention that I have been receiving multiple copies
of Sid's messages.  The only differences are in the header fields.  Is
there a runaway mailer at DPSI.COM?  Thanks.
--
Joe Barone
m1b@rayssd.ssd.ray.com
To a New Yorker like you, a hero is some kind of weird
sandwich, not some nut who takes on three Tigers!

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 12 Nov 1993 09:40:54 CST-6CDT
From:    "Walter Bell, U. of North Texas" <WBELL@LIBRARY.UNT.EDU>
Subject: Guy Sajer

Many thanks to Bill Huber, Barrett Lowe, and Terry Moore for their
help on my questions about Guy Sajer. The Patron went away happy.
Thanks again!

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 12 Nov 1993 08:42:00 CDT
From:    Roger Safian <ROGER@NUACC.ACNS.NWU.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN RE: WWII movies

Greetings,

    I'd have to say my favorite PTO movie is "Bataan".  (I hope that's
the title...shouldn't do this without coffee!)  It's the story of
a rag-tag group of US service me trying to hold off the Japanese
advance.  As a historical movie, it's so-so at best, but as a period
piece, it's classic.  I can see where this one would really get everyone
to buy an extra Victory stamp or bond on the way out of the theatre.

    Another one, along the same lines, is "Know your enemy - Japan".
Here's a movie, put together by Frank Capra and the U.S. government,
that gives a nice, even handed, strictly neutral, view of the war.

                                          NOT!!!

                                                   Roger

P.S.

    Yes, they are both out on video.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 12 Nov 1993 10:57:13 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <kc5318@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: RAF vs USAAF heavy bombardment

>>
>> >From Lou Coatney
>>
>> >Extenuating considerations on behalf of British "area bombing:"
>> >[stuff deleted]
>>
>> Lou, I agree with your reasons here, but it all sounds a bit weak, doesn't
>> it.  "They bombed us so we'll bomb them" is not the most defensible argument
>> - esp. against the USAAF reasons of accuracy, minimising civilian
>> casualties, etc.  There must be something else....
>
>Although I do not profess to have great knowledge in this area I agree
>that there must be something else.. and I think it would be the
>availability of long range fighters to escort the bombers which would be
>essential for daylight raids.  Also, not untill the Germans developed the
>Me-?? night fighter did they encounter any major losses - the losses were
>still great but it is must be viewed on a comparative basis.
>Incidentally, what was the difference in accuracy between day and night
>bombing raids?
>
>
>
>--
>"Life is full of surprises, but never when you need one."
>                        skenny@engr.mun.ca St. John's, NF Canada



The issue of accuracy in WWII bombing is a complicated one.  Early in the war
the RAF was appalled to find that most of their bombs were falling five miles
or more from aiming points.  While they achieved remarkable accuracy on some
Mosquito raids, RAF results were never close to American bombing.  But AAF
bombing was not putting ordnance down smokestacks either.  Units bombing in
formation with settings to disperse bombs up to 400 feet apart usually hit
their aiming point, but the bombs also obliterated wide areas.  In general, the
AAF over Europe did the best they good with the technology available.  In
Williamson Murray's words, "Precision Bombing was, and is, a sledgehammer not a
rapier."  Despite press releases to the contrary, AAF leaders knew the
limitations of their accuracy.  In 1941, American experts expected to get 40%
of bombs within 1500 feet of targets.  By 1945, they were getting 44% within
1000 feet of targets, and 73% within 2000 feet.  Considering flak, fighters,
weather, smokescreens, and chance, that's really pretty good. But it is not
pinpoint.
                                        LTC Con Crane
                                        USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 12 Nov 1993 18:06:37 +0200
From:    Chris Scogings <cscoging@UNPCS1.CS.UNP.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: RAF vs USAAF heavy bombardment

Extracts from The Designer Notes of the simulation game "Luftwaffe"
produced by the Avalon Hill Games Company:

USAAF         (European Theatre Only)   RAF
-----                                   ---
1,461,864     Tons of bombs dropped     1,235,609
  754,818     Bomber sorties flown        687,462
  991,750     Fighter sorties flown     1,695,049 (incl. Battle of Britain)
    9,949     Bombers lost                 11,965
    8,420     Fighters lost                10,045
    7,177     Max. bomber strength          6,956
    6,203     Max. fighter strength         7,728

Most USAAF bomber losses occurred in 1942/1943.
Most RAF bomber losses occurred in 1943/1944.

Greatest losses in a single mission:
------------------------------------
USAAF: Schweinfurt Aug 17 1943, 60 bombers lost, 100 damaged.
       Schweinfurt Oct 14 1943, 62 bombers lost,  53 damaged.
RAF:   Nuremberg   Mar 30 1944, 107 bombers lost, 59 damaged.

Accuracy
--------
USAAF: 31% of bombs were dropped within 1,000 feet of the target.
RAF:   40% of bombs were dropped within   425 feet of the target.

(It is important to note that a "target" for the USAAF was usually a
 building, eg: a factory.  The "target" for the RAF was a CITY!!!
 - I kid you not.)

There's a bit more of this stuff if anyone wants it.

Chris
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Scogings                      Voice: (27) 331 955645
Computer Science Dept                 Fax: (27) 331 955599
University of Natal
Pietermaritzburg                   E-Mail:cscoging@unpcs1.cs.unp.ac.za
----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 12 Nov 1993 08:07:28 PST
From:    Alan Hepburn <alan@BERLIOZ.NSC.COM>
Subject: Re: Veterans' Day, 1993.

Lou Coatney writes:

"A nice post, Larry, even for those of us who only defended the Ft. Bliss
  Post Laundry with our very lives, Christmas Eve, 1967.

So why am I working?"


We veterans in the private sector are required to work on OUR day
so we can pay taxes to support the non-veterans in the public
sector who see this as an opportunity for a long weekend.  Some
of the people who get a holiday don't even know why they get the
holiday; it's just another day off to them...

---

Alan Hepburn     "If history repeats itself, and the unexpected always happens,
National Semiconductor   how incapable must Man be of learning from experience.
Santa Clara, Ca
alan@berlioz.nsc.com                              George Bernard Shaw

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 12 Nov 1993 08:46:13 PST
From:    Peter Trott <peter@PDX.NCUBE.COM>
Subject: Re: RAF vs USAAF heavy bombardment

>>From Lou Coatney
>>
>>Extenuating considerations on behalf of British "area bombing:"
>>[stuff deleted]
>
> Lou, I agree with your reasons here, but it all sounds a bit weak, doesn't
> it.  "They bombed us so we'll bomb them" is not the most defensible argument
> - esp. against the USAAF reasons of accuracy, minimising civilian
> casualties, etc.  There must be something else....

What I hear Lou saying (see him typing?) is that the British felt no
compunction about tossing aside the Marquis of Queensberry rules, when
their opponent in the ring was taking every opportunity to knee them
in the metaphorical groin.

The British night-bombing of German cities bouyed the spirits of the
British populace in the same way that Doolittle's raid on Japan bouyed
the spirits of the U.S. populace.  It was getting back at the enemy
"in kind" for what they had done to us.  And justice was on our side,
because they had done it first.

Peter Trott (peter@pdx.ncube.com)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 12 Nov 1993 12:04:55 EST
From:    Charles Reace <creace@ISD.CSC.COM>
Subject: Re: RAF vs USAAF heavy bombardment

> [Glenn Millard] . .  . In the long-term,
> daylight bombing did more to bring down the Luftwaffe than night bombing
> ever did. Agree with this or disagree?

I would agree that by '44-'45 this was so, but when the British went to
night bombing it was the USAAF bombers who were being brought down by the
Luftwaffe.  As the P-47's showed up with their drop tanks, it started be-
coming dangerous for the German fighters, and when the P-51 joined the
fray along with improved tactics, it was downright dangerous to respond
to the US bombing attacks.  But don't forget the impact the Spitfires and
Yaks made on the attrition of experienced German pilots!

By the way, there's an interesting book out by a British night fighter
pilot (I think it's called _Night_Fighter_ ) which discusses both the
interception of German bombers, and later in the war flying with the
British bomber streams as night escort.

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <creace@isd.csc.com>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 12 Nov 1993 12:34:31 EST
From:    "Denis Ouellette, Indiana Univ" <OUELLETT@UCS.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: RAF vs USAAF heavy bombardment

One point to keep in mind is the relatively smaller size bombs and
bomb loads dropped by US bombers.  Being on target doesn't help much
if the munition isn't having much impact. (This point was made previosly
with respect to the fact that the Germans found that many factories hit
sustained only damage to the structure but most of the machine tools were
left untouched - the reason - the inadequate 500 pound bombs used by the
USSAF)

Denis Ouellette

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 12 Nov 1993 14:21:23 -0500
From:    "Sidney W. Kitchel" <kitchel@OCTOPUS.DPSI.COM>
Subject: Re: Navajo code-talkers

M. Joseph Barone writes:
|->
|-> "Sidney W. Kitchel" <kitchel@OCTOPUS.DPSI.COM> writes:
|-> > ... They [Cherokee communicators] were used in Italy
|-> > to foil German wiretaps of US tactical phone lines. As far as I know,
|-> > the Thunderbird Div.'s use did not involve inventing an actual code.
|-> > They merely put a Cherokee speaker on each end of the phone line and let
|-> > them give details in Tsa-la-gi. Both the Germans and Japanese
|-> > apparently found breaking this system impossible.
|->
|->         Does the US military still consider the various Amerind languages
|-> as secure or was this practice ended with WWII?

        I have not heard of their use recently. Anyone know stories
from Korea and Vietnam?? I would think that they are relatively secure
even today for tactical messages. However, I'd guess that US forces
rely more on electronic scrambling of tactical messages.

|->         Also, I should mention that I have been receiving multiple copies
|-> of Sid's messages.  The only differences are in the header fields.  Is
|-> there a runaway mailer at DPSI.COM?  Thanks.

        Possible. But more likely it was the famous Sid error. I
wasn't receiving my own messages sent to the list because of a machine
down at IU, so I resent some messages.
                                                        --Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel           kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 12 Nov 1993 15:11:49 -0500
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 13-14 NOV 43

                  COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

SATURDAY, 13 NOVEMBER 1943

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  Beaufighter, Bristol
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  P-70, Douglas

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ZONE OF INTERIOR: HQ AAF issues an order redesignating Reconnaissance
Squadrons as Tactical Reconnaissance Squadrons.

CENTRAL PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Seventh Air Force): The air attack for
Operation GALVANIC (the assault on the Gilbert Islands) begins. 18 B-24's from
Funafuti Atoll in the Ellice Islands bomb Tarawa Atoll in the Gilbert Islands;
1 B-24 is lost.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, a single B-24 mines the Rangoon
River during the night of 13/14 Nov.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): VIII Bomber Command Mission 130: 79
of 159 B-17's, 61 of 109 B-24's and 3 of 4 B-17 PFF aircraft hit the port area
at Bremen and targets of opportunity in the Kiel-Flensburg area at 1120-1145
hours; 100+ aircraft abort the mission due to weather; they claim 20-14-13
Luftwaffe aircraft; 3 B-17's and 13 B-24's are lost; 3 B-17's and 3 B-24's are
damaged beyond repair and 12 B-17's and 10 B-24's are damaged; casualties are
21 KIA, 26 WIA and 162 MIA. The bombers are escorted by 45 P-38's (all the way
to the target) and 345 P-47's; they claim 10-3-6 Luftwaffe aircraft; 7 P-38's
and 3 P-47's are lost; 2 P-38's are damaged beyond repair; 5 P-38's and 2
P-47's are damaged; casualties are 9 MIA.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): HQ 354th Fighter Group and it's 353d,
355th and 356th Fighter Squadrons transfer from Greenham Common to Boxted,
England with P-51's. They will fly their first mission on 1 Dec.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Weather limits operations to
air-sea rescue patrols which are hampered by overcast.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, Northwest African
Tactical Bomber Force (NATBF) light bombers hit Palena and Atina and later
bomb Civitavecchia harbor and a road W of Terracina; XII Air Support Command
fighter-bombers, along with Royal Air Force (RAF) Desert Air Force (DAF)
airplanes, bomb Giulianova harbor and shipping, roads leading to the battle
zone, and landing grounds of Aquino, Frosinone, and Marcigliana; fighters hit
train and trucks in the Pescara-Rieti area.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, 17 B-24's pound AA positions, dispersal areas, and runway at Bonis
airfield on Bougainville Island. 6 B-25's carry out a low-level raid on the
airfield on Buka Island. Night fighters harass the Shortland Island and Kahili
and Bonis airfields on Bougainville, claiming 4 grounded airplanes destroyed
at the latter.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea,
nearly 120 B-24's and B-25's pound Alexishafen, and P-40's strafe the area.
Other B-24's hit Gasmata Island off New Britain Island and Kaukenau and
Timoeka, New Guinea. B-25's and Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) Beaufighters
claim the sinking of a small freighter off Tanimbar Island in the Moluccas
Islands.

SUNDAY, 14 NOVEMBER 1943

CENTRAL PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Seventh Air Force): 9 B-24's from
Nukufetau Island in the Ellice Islands bomb Tarawa Atoll in the Gilbert
Islands; 9 from Nanumea Island in the Ellice Islands hit Mille Atoll in the
Caroline Islands.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): NATBF) B-25's, escorted by
Fifteenth Air Force P-38's, bomb the Sofia, Bulgaria marshalling yard; the
P-38's claim 5 enemy aircraft destroyed. In Italy, XII Air Support Command
operations are curtailed by weather, and only battle area patrols are flown;
RAF DAF fighter-bombers hit trains on the E coast of Italy near Avezzano,
along the Dalmatian coast SE of Metkovic, Yugoslavia, and at Sarajevo,
Yugoslavia; fighters strafe the airfields at Furbara and Tarquinia, Italy.
  The 428th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 310th Bombardment Group (Medium),
ceases operating from Oudna and returns to it's base at Menzel Temime, Tunisia
with B-25's.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, P-70 night fighters hit the Shortland Island-Faisi Island area,
claiming a seaplane and 2 barges destroyed.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): B-25's attack a
supply and bivouac area W of Sio, New Guinea.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 12 Nov 1993 15:21:59 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: Re: tank naming

In your message you write:
>>...why name them after generals...?
>
>        From what I remember reading about British habits in naming their
>vehicles, the pattern depended on the tank's role.  Recon, or real armor.
>The pattern I recall involved light to medium tanks with C names: Cromwell,
>Crusader and Comet.  The Churchill obviously doesn't fit here, but that may
>have been a popular rather than official designation.
>
>        As for the "Wolverine" that was a TD and not a tank.  What I'd like to
>know, is why the British came up with "Priest" and "Bishop" for self-propelled
>guns?
>
>                                        Richard Kaplan
>
>My vote for better movie about the PTO is the one with Jimmy Cagney portraying
>Admiral Halsey; but I forget the title (is it Above and Beyond)?
>
>I also like the John Wayne pic about Frank "Spig" Wead; has eagles in the
>title.
>
Richard,

The John Wayne movie about Frank "Spig" Wead was, I believe,
called "Wings of Eagles."  Good movie!!

Jim Irwin
Defense Personnel Support Center
Philadelphia PA
jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 12 Nov 1993 14:23:08 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: David Irving

In Terry Moore's message he says:
>
> I was aware that David Irving was regarded as a radical of the right,
> but I wasn't  aware that he had "flipped out", as this article
> suggests. I can't believe that he has taken that position! :-(. I
> have read several of his books, and have been most impressed with his
> research, particularly those of his earlier works.
>
> However, with regard to David Irving, I can't believe that he has
> fallen so low and into such disrepute. The German Government is right
> to ask him to leave the country, and his adherence to such an
> attitude is a disgrace to all concerned, and it does no honor to his
> credentials.

Hi folks,

First let me say that this topic is covered regularly and well
on alt.revisionism and there is an excellent archive for anyone
wanting additional data on Irving available through Ken McVay.  He
runs a listserver at oneb.almanac.bc.ca that contains this archive.
You can reach him directly at kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca and he can get
you into the archive.

Having said that, I'll add that Irving has been sued in German court
and fined for his calling the gas chamber at Auschwitz an "attrape"
(mock up).  A German law forbids denying the holocaust and he was hit
with a 15,000 DM (as I recall) fine for his public comments.  He
appealed the decision and the judge hearing the appeal quadrupled the
fine (yea! Justice prevails!).   Last I heard he was forbidden from
entering Germany but would sneak across the boarder from Austria to
attend rallies of neo-nazis where he is quite well thought of.

His position, as I understand it, is that Hitler was not aware of any
attempts at murdering the Jews of Europe and he bases that opinion on
the lack of any document signed by Hitler ordering executions.  He
also says that there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz or anywhere
else and that nobody was gassed to death in Nazi Germany.  He has to
ignore literally tons of documentary evidence to cling to this
opinion.  He has a following in virtually every country on the planet
not just Germany.

Irving got in trouble on the Auschwitz gas chamber because the one on
display there was reconstructed by the Russians.  He claims that it is
a total fake and that it had been a bomb shelter.  He is partly right.
It was a bomb shelter but prior to that it had been an experimental
gas chamber used to kill prisoners.  Once experimentation was completed
(quite successfully) the cremas in the Birkenau complex (5 total) were
built and begun operation full scale.  These were destroyed by the
retreating SS in 1944 to hide their crimes.  The experimental chamber
was made into an air raid shelter after Birkenau came on line and was
left that way when the SS pulled out.  The Russians and Poles
discovered traces of cyanide gas in the concrete walls of the shelter
and restored the chamber to what it must have looked like before it
was made into an air raid shelter.  Even the rubble of the 5 destroyed
cremas contains traces of cyanide gas (zyklon B) but the deniers claim
that these were chambers used for delousing clothing.  They maintain
that nobody was wearing the clothing as it was being deloused....

As I said, Ken's archive explodes all the "undeniable facts" that
Irving and his crew are spewing.  If this topic interests you I urge
you to check out his material.  It will settle any debate on the
subject.

Sorry, Larry, for continuing a Holocaust thread.  I'm trying to steer
it to the correct platform.  I've read your netiquette for WWII-L :-)
Roger, will comply!

Cheers, Bill Huber
whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 12 Nov 1993 15:26:15 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: Re: US tank naming

In your message you write:
>>On Tue, 9 Nov 1993 16:08:54 EST Larry & Kim Jewell said:
>>>TWIHI (The Way I Heard It) was that a British tanker drove a recently arrived
>>>Stuart around for a while, and pronounced that it was a "real honey" so they
>>>named them Honey tanks. I've always thought the nicknames had more recognition
>>>value than the "official" names.
>>
>> Crisp's driver, reported in =Brazen Chariots=.
>
>  Thanks, I knew I'd read it somewhere, but lost track of the source. Do you
>have the author, publisher, etc.?
>
>> ken koester
>> maint2@ers.bitnet
>
>Larry J
>
Larry,

The copy I have is Robert Crisp, "Brazen Chariots," Ballantine
Books (paperback), the 1966 edition.  It was part of the
Ballantine books history of World War II series at the time.

Jim Irwin
Defense Personnel Support Center
Philadelphia PA
jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 12 Nov 1993 14:34:00 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: REF/Re: West Point Card Catalog

In Charles Reace's message of 11 Nov 1993 at 1704 CST, he writes:

> Has anybody been able to connect to the West Point library card
> catalog per the earlier message.  I've tried telnet'ing to the explicit
> address 129.29.90.100, and also tried telnet'ing to LIBRARY.USMA.EDU,
> which I got from GOPHER and which tries the above address as well as
> two others.  I always get a "host unreachable" message for each address
> and never connect.  Am I missing something, or has nobody else been
> able to connect?

I get timed out on my attemts at telnet(ing).  I tried 5 times
yesterday at different times but no luck so far.

Cheers,
Bill Huber

whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 12 Nov 1993 10:25:54 CST
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: "Hoax of the Twentieth Century"

Terry,

     This book was by Arthur Butz, an (electrical?) engineering prof at
Northwestern University (in Evanston IL).  According to a mutual acquain-
tance, Arthur is a nice fellow and good teacher.  Everyone went into shock
when his book came out, claiming that the Holocaust was gross exaggeration
and Allied propaganda.

     (Didn't I discuss this already, or was that on MILHST-L?)

     I have suggested that anyone attempting to falsify history so
obscenely should be pilloried by their appropriate professional/historical
association.  (That wouldn't apply to Arthur, of course.  Someone else
wondered whether any academic who played so fast and loose with Truth
shouldn't be in trouble with his professional association of whatever
discipline.)

     What is this net's consensus on whether or not we should be
professionally/historically ACCOUNTABLE for really flagrant violations of
historical truth?  How do we keep "historically correct" from going to
the extremes of "politically correct?"

Lou Coatney, Western Illinois University

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 12 Nov 1993 10:34:21 CST
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: "In Harm's Way" ??!!

'Nice models in "In Harm's Way," but the rape/suicide/suicide-mission
  subplot was squalid and misrepresentative.

'An interesting portrayal of command politics, though.

It was too much a "John Wayne" movie for my taste.

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 12 Nov 1993 15:58:30 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: Re: RAF vs USAAF heavy bombardment

In reply to the mail from <MSLRC%ECNUXA.BITNET@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>...
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>From: Lou Coatney <MSLRC%ECNUXA.BITNET@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
>Subject:      Re: RAF vs USAAF heavy bombardment
>To: Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
>In-Reply-To:  <199311111601.AA08766@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu>; from "Dennis E. Sparks" at
>Status: RO
>
>Dennis,
>
>     Extenuating considerations on behalf of British "area bombing:"
>
>1. The Germans had indiscriminately terror-bombed them (and countless other,
>more innocent, peoples).
>
    Do two wrongs make a right?

>2. Feeling the consequences of mass (terror-)bombing themselves was the one
>  best way for the Germans to learn what the war they were waging on others
>  was really like.  (Bellicosity is difficult when you are trying to put
>  the fire in your own house out.)
>
    Did terror bombing shorten the war, break the will of the
German people to resist?


>3. According to Speer, the Hamburg firebombing DID break the will of the
>  Hamburgers for some months and Germany's morale could have faltered if
>  Germany's morale could have faltered if the mass bombing had been
>  extended to other cities.
>
   How many more do you want?

                Nuremburg
                Berlin
                DRESDEN

   How about the morality of "deliberately" creating firestorms,
killing hundreds of thousands of civilians with no pretense that
"military targets" were being attacked?  Or are morality and war
contradictions in terms, an oxymoron if you will?


>4. Hitting back in kind was vital to Allied morale.
>
    What kind - what Allied cities were firebombed?  Yes, London
suffered, as did Coventry and Rotterdam.  But, hundreds of
thousands suffocated and burned at one time, I don't think so.


>5. The Germans were forced to expend resources to the extent that we had a
>  Second Front (which the Soviets were screaming for) in the air.
>
   What second front?  Terror bombing didn't force a release of
German divisions to the West, thus easing the pressure on Soviet
forces.  In the words of Uncle Joe, "#@#%%$#$%^^%%$." (expletive
deleted)


>More, later.
>
>Lou Coatney, WIU
>
 Jim Irwin


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-8760
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-8760

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 12 Nov 1993 15:07:19 CST
From:    "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer,
         Tim A." <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Robert Clary speech

Robert Clary will be making a speech in the Ryle Hall Main Lounge, on
the campus of Northeast Missouri State University (this is about 100
meters from my office) on 24 January, 1993 at 8pm.  He will be speaking
on his family's experiences during the Holocaust.

Clary is a well known actor who is currently on the Soap Opera "The Bold
and the Beautiful".  We all probably recognize him better from his role
on the 1960's TV series "Hogan's Heros" as La Beau, the French POW who
was a master chef and sabatage expert.

I plan on attending and will try to get an interview for the WWIIHRS
newsletter, The Point, about his time on Hogan's Heros.

If anyone wants anymore details, please contact me.

Tim

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 12 Nov 1993 16:19:16 EST
From:    Charles Reace <creace@ISD.CSC.COM>
Subject: Re: Veterans' Day, 1993.

> We veterans in the private sector are required to work on OUR day . . .

I for one am glad we've always had plenty of people in this country
ready to put their lives on the line in its defense.  Each of you
certainly deserves one day off each year for such service.  But, if you
think about it, maybe it would be better if we just had the day but
let no one at all off from work.  It seems that when you make something
into a holiday, it starts to demean it -- at least in the US.  It becomes
an excuse to have special sales at the stores, barbecues, parties,
etc.  Just look at Christmas, or at Memorial day (which is supposed to
honor those who *died* for our country, while we drink beer and eat
BBQ'ed hot dogs!)

So each year, on the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh
month; pause at whatever you're doing and imagine a lone bugler in the
distance playing Taps, and give a profound "Thank you."

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <creace@isd.csc.com>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 12 Nov 1993 14:49:41 EST
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: RAF vs USAAF heavy bombardment

On Fri, 12 Nov 1993 12:34:31 EST Denis Ouellette, Indiana Univ said:
>One point to keep in mind is the relatively smaller size bombs and
>bomb loads dropped by US bombers.  Being on target doesn't help much
>if the munition isn't having much impact. (This point was made previosly
>with respect to the fact that the Germans found that many factories hit
>sustained only damage to the structure but most of the machine tools were
>left untouched - the reason - the inadequate 500 pound bombs used by the
>USSAF)

Possibly, although I would suspect it is more a matter of needing direct
hits to do much more than superficial damage.  Bombarding armor with
155s instead of 75s doesn't get many more hits, for example; the same is
likely true of machine tools.  I'd like to find a study sometime.

ken koester
maint2@ers.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 12 Nov 1993 10:56:29 CST
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Re: RAF vs USAAF heavy bombardment

Chris,

     "Deterrence" means, "If you bomb us, we will bomb you (in kind)."
Maybe Hitler didn't use gas against Britain, because he knew he'd get it
back in kind (and he had bad memories of gas from WW I).

     We (Americans) didn't get bombed, and retaliation in kind would have
been harder to justify.

Lou

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 12 Nov 1993 19:10:05 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <kc5318@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: RAF vs USAAF heavy bombardment

>One point to keep in mind is the relatively smaller size bombs and
>bomb loads dropped by US bombers.  Being on target doesn't help much
>if the munition isn't having much impact. (This point was made previosly
>with respect to the fact that the Germans found that many factories hit
>sustained only damage to the structure but most of the machine tools were
>left untouched - the reason - the inadequate 500 pound bombs used by the
>USSAF)
>
>Denis Ouellette


I want to reinforce what Denis said.  The 500 pound bombs were really not the
right weapon for German factories.  They did, however, prove effective against
German transportation, and brought the German National Railway to standstill by
early 1945.  British bomb loads, especially the big bombs 4000 pounds or
higher, were better for factories.  The problem there was that the British
bombers carrying the bombs did not have the ceiling to fly high enough to
survive in daylight, because of the weight of those same bombs.  By 1943, the
AAF and the RAF were both locked into their  strategies by technology.  B-17s
weren't effective at night, and Lancasters could not survive during the day.
Also British bombsights  were far inferior to the Norden, and their bombers
were very unsteady bombing platforms. On the other hand, B-17s carried too few
bombs for area raids, and had no flame dampers to avoid easy detection at
night.  Ira Eaker thought that the Americans could reconfigure their aircraft
and train crews for night bombing in about six months, but the British never
reconsidered day bombing until the Luftwaffe was gone from daytime German
skies.  By early in 1945, it was safer to bomb by day than by night, since
German fighters could roam around in the dark without being hunted by Mustangs.

                                        LTC Con Crane
                                        USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 12 Nov 1993 23:03:27 EST
From:    Richard Kaplan <kaplanr@CLP2.CLPGH.ORG>
Subject: Veteran's Day

I kind of like what Israel does.  There is no Veteran's Day as such, but there
is Memorial Day for the military fallen, and a Holocaust Rememberance Day.
Neither day is a holiday, though some people obviously stay at home, pray, and
visit grave sites or memorials.  On both days, the entire country comes to a
complete halt for 60 seconds, as sirens are sounded simultaneously around the
country.  Buses stop, traffic stops, pedestrians halt, work stops and everyone
observes a moment of silence.  Memorial day is the day before Independence
Day, and as the somber atmosphere of Memorial Day ends in the evening, Inde-
pendence Day is ushered in as a festive historical day.

                                        Richard Kaplan

ps. Such are the advantages of one time-zone.

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 11 Nov 1993 to 12 Nov 1993
*************************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 12 Nov 1993 to 13 Nov 1993
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Status: O

There are 4 messages totalling 112 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. West Point Library On-Line (repeat)
  2. Guy Sajer
  3. WANT: Proof-readers for D-Day book.
  4. GI POWs

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 13 Nov 1993 05:47:07 EST
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <hb9388@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: West Point Library On-Line (repeat)

Terry,

I hope it works.  A few folks were having some problems accessing the card
catalog the past few days.  We were having some trouble with our server here
and that may have been the cause.  I think it's back on line now.

I got your letter.  Thanks a bunch!  That was an interesting story.

Have a good weekend.  We're giving a test this morning (a mid-term, but
we call them written partial reviews), so I'll be busy grading.

See ya,

Barry

Barrett F. Lowe                    RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, US Military Academy, West Point, NY 10996

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 13 Nov 1993 05:48:48 EST
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <hb9388@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Guy Sajer

>Many thanks to Bill Huber, Barrett Lowe, and Terry Moore for their
>help on my questions about Guy Sajer. The Patron went away happy.
>Thanks again!
>

Walter,

No problem.  Glad to be of help.  I think for questions like yours,
and many other that have popped up, this list is a great source of
information,

Have a good weekend,

Barry

Barrett F. Lowe                    RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, US Military Academy, West Point, NY 10996

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 13 Nov 1993 15:24:59 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: WANT: Proof-readers for D-Day book.

Hi, I'm digitizing "Cross Channel Attack" from the Army Green book series.
Since I'm only human I expect errors. What I would like to do is send the
chapters as they are finished to volunteers would have access to the original
for proof-reading. I have the first chapter done (digitized and first proof.)
Three more chapters are "on disk" and will be ready soon. I want to have the
whole book done by 1 April, '94 so it can be distrubed by Project Gutenberg
in time for the 50th Anniversary.

If you have time to do a chapter or two, drop me a note with your preferences
in format and I'll send you a file. I want to have each chapter checked
twice after I've gone over it, and I'll take all the help I can get. All
volunteers will get the complete book before it's released anywhere else.
I'm also planning on including all the pictures and maps from the book in
the final "package." (Did I mention I now have access to a really nice
flatbed scanner? :-).

Once the book is done it will be uploaded to byrd, and will be available from
all Project Gutenberg sites when it goes through their system.

On a side bar, those of you who recall our discussion of a few months back
about the need to have e-text versions of the Green Books will be interested
to note that I can digitize an entire chapter (35-45 pages) in 90 minutes
(which is full speed for an old crip :-) and 3-4 hours of editing to correct
the first draft. If I had nothing else to do I could do a whole book in one
week to ten days. Point of this is that the technology has been much improved
since my first attempts at scanning. (I use an Apple Scanner and OMNI-Page
software to do the conversion.)

Larry J

JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 13 Nov 1993 19:12:48 CST
From:    Mary Todd <U24930@UICVM.BITNET>
Subject: GI POWs

May I post a request on your list?

I have a friend whose older brother was a GI taken prisoner by the
Nazis probably in 1943 and held as a POW for nearly 3 years. (The
family was originally told he had been killed.)  He has never spoken
about his experience.  She, after studying the Holocaust in my class,
would like to know where to go for information about camp names,
locations, and treatment of POWs, in order to know more about their
experience.  Any suggestions/recommendations are welcome.  Is there
a "best book" on the subject?  Thanks in advance for your help.
                   [Please reply privately as I'm not on your list.]
Mary Todd
The University of Illinois at Chicago
u24930@uicvm Bitnet - u24930@uicvm.uic.edu Internet

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 12 Nov 1993 to 13 Nov 1993
*************************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 13 Nov 1993 to 14 Nov 1993
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Status: O

There are 7 messages totalling 217 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Reply to James Irwin
  2. Veterans' Day, 1993 and BBQs.
  3. Veteran's Day in Israel
  4. Enforcing History
  5. RAF vs USAAF heavy bombardment
  6. RAF vs USAAF/ Me ??? Nightfighters
  7. WEAP: Re: Long Lance Torpedo

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 14 Nov 1993 14:37:12 CST
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Reply to James Irwin

Yes, I'd say morality was pretty well out the window in WWII, and the Axis
  were responsible for that.  Rape of Nanking, Bombing of Rotterdam,
  Holocaust, etc., etc.

Only deterrence prevailed, and that only because of demonstrated strength
  and ruthlessness by the Allies -- finally.  The Axis only became
  self-pitying and concerned with the morality of war once they were losing
  and suffering themselves.

I'm grateful my ancestors had the will and ability to do what was necessary
  for their/our/my survival.

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 14 Nov 1993 14:42:57 CST
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Veterans' Day, 1993 and BBQs.

Man!  What I would have given for a nice, hot BBQ on Christmas Eve, 1967!!

I'll go along with Veterans' Day just being for veterans and our
  dependents!

(I'll never forget the look on Dean Ribbeck's face at Augustana College in
  1970(?) when I suggested to him the College might set up a veterans'
  welcome picnic for the (few) veterans on campus and our pick of the coeds.
  He had this "Oh, my God!!  Now VETERAN demands?!" look of horror.)

...Still picking...

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 14 Nov 1993 14:50:33 CST
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Veteran's Day in Israel

Richard,
d
     Thanks for sharing that.  It does sound better, although having the
day off (for BBQs) is a pleasant reminder of the (family) happiness we were
serving/hoping for.  (At least, such are my memories.)

Lou

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 14 Nov 1993 16:47:34 EST
From:    "William B. Thacker" <wbt@CBEMF.ATT.COM>
Subject: Enforcing History

> > However, with regard to David Irving, I can't believe that he has
> > fallen so low and into such disrepute. The German Government is right
> > to ask him to leave the country, and his adherence to such an
> > attitude is a disgrace to all concerned, and it does no honor to his
> > credentials.
>
> Having said that, I'll add that Irving has been sued in German court
> and fined for his calling the gas chamber at Auschwitz an "attrape"
> (mock up).  A German law forbids denying the holocaust and he was hit
> with a 15,000 DM (as I recall) fine for his public comments.  He
> appealed the decision and the judge hearing the appeal quadrupled the
> fine (yea! Justice prevails!).

German justice, perhaps.  Not mine.

I guess George Orwell's _1984_ is passe' now, but it should be required
reading for anyone who thinks the government ought to have the power to
declare the Truth and penalize those who disagree.  This particular example
might make that power look appealing, but think about it!

Should Christopher Columbus be honored as a gallant explorer or despised as
a genocidal invader?  Who on this list would care to have our beloved
Congress tell us, and fine or arrest anyone who disagrees?   Ideas, right
or wrong, and the ability to express them, are what freedom is about.  And
the ideas that are most important are often the ones the government doesn't
want heard.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
(614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              wbt@cbemf.att.com
                      Humpty Dumpty was pushed!

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 08:22:51 +1000
From:    Derek Monz <gldrm@JCU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: RAF vs USAAF heavy bombardment

On Fri, 12 Nov 1993, Denis Ouellette, Indiana Univ wrote:

> One point to keep in mind is the relatively smaller size bombs and
> bomb loads dropped by US bombers.  Being on target doesn't help much
> if the munition isn't having much impact. (This point was made previosly
> with respect to the fact that the Germans found that many factories hit
> sustained only damage to the structure but most of the machine tools were
> left untouched - the reason - the inadequate 500 pound bombs used by the
> USSAF)
>
> Denis Ouellette

I read this too in two different sources.
     According to Brig Gen. Hayward S. Hansel Jr. ( commanding GEn XX AF
and XXI Bomber command). The Japanese noted that most of the bombs dropped
 by US bombers only damged the factory structure. They then "repaired" the
factory so that it still looked knocked out and continued production.
    But on a more relevant note Max Hastings in his book Bomber Command
says the same thing that germans were puzzled by the fact that a large
percentage of British and AAF bombs failed to explode. If they did then if
the machine tools in the factory didn't recieve a direct hit, the factory
could generally resume production once debris had been cleared.
 Anyway thats my two cents worth.

EMail: gldrm@manta.jcu.edu.au           Derek Monz @ JCU 1993
       Disclamer: - I didn't do it!
" If there is anything more important than my Ego.....
                 I want taken out and shot!"  (Zaphod Beablbrox (HHGTTG)).

                            ((-------))
                                \o/
                                 |
                               _/ \_

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 00:24:15 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVSDS.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: RAF vs USAAF/ Me ??? Nightfighters

On Fri, 12 Nov 1993, Mike Long wrote:

> On Fri, 12 Nov 1993 10:02:35 -0330 Shawn Kenny said:
> >essential for daylight raids.  Also, not untill the Germans developed the
> >Me-?? night fighter did they encounter any major losses - the losses were
>
> This leads me to ask which of Germany's nightfighter types was the most
> successful. Me110? Ju88? I know they used Me110s Me210s Me262s Ju88s; what
> other types were used? Who was the most successful nightfighter pilot?

It was not the development of the aircraft, but the development of the
radar sets and adequate tactics that made the difference. For night
fighters, as far as I remember, they used:

Messerschmitt Bf 110 : intended as twin-engined heavy fighter, later
converted to night fighter. Performance suffered badly by the drag of the
antenna's, but it was fairly effective.

Junkers Ju 88 : Night-fighter versions of a fast bomber. The Ju 88 could
carry more equipment than the Bf 110, had good performance and surprising
maneuvrability. The Ju 88 finally replaced the Bf 110; it was probably
the most effective of the night fighters that were built in large numbers.

Heinkel He 219 Uhu : The He 219 was, after many doubts, built as a night
fighter. This was probably the best of the piston-engined night fighters,
but the Luftwaffe refused to order large-scale production.

Dornier Do 217 : Some night fighter versions of this medium bomber were
built, but they were too unwieldy and not liked by their crews.

Dornier Do 335, Messerschmitt Me 262, Focke-Wulf Ta 154, Junkes Ju 388 :
night fighters versions were designed and flown, but combat use was
minimal.

The Germans used also many day fighters, Me 109's and Fw 190's with a few
adaptations, as night fighters under the 'Wilde Sau' tactical concept:
they would be guided to the bomber stream by searchlights and the fire of
the bombardments.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 14 Nov 1993 19:03:52 EST
From:    "TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET" <TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET>
Subject: WEAP: Re: Long Lance Torpedo

 To: Multiple recipients of List WWII-L (WWII-L@UBVM.BITNET)

 Mr.Todaka, Tokyo, Japan, an Imperial Japanese Navy weapons expert, stated in
 his letter to Mr.Norman Polmar, 28 Sept 1993, that it was his opinion the
 term of NAGAYARI (or Long Lance), probably originated in the United States
 rather than in Japan. He also stated the term of GYORAI (torpedo) was used
 in the IJN Combined Fleet (Rengo Kantai), and automatically meant the Type 93
 torpedo.
 Possibly someone on our side thought up the name. Maybe someone connected
 with Samuel Eliot Morison official History of the Navy in World WarII.
 The Japanese did not use nicknames of this kind with their weapons,usually.
 The torpedo was a Type 93 torpedo because it was adopted in the year 2593
 of the traditional calendar (1933). The Zero was called that because it was
 adopted in 2600 (last digit Zero), that is, 1940. Later in the war some
 aircraft got poetic names, but not in the 1930s. We had names like Aircobra
 and Wildcat, they just had designations like Type 99 Carrier-Borne Attack
 Airplane.
 U.S. Naval Technical Mission To Japan, March1946, "Japanese Torpedoes and
 Tubes, Article 1," did not mention Long Lance by name.
 We know the Japanese called the torpedo Type 93; the Japanese sources,
 moreover, indicated that the term NAGAYARI appears nowhere in Japanese
 studies.
 We need some American to step out of the historical shadows and say, I
 named the thing at such and such a time and it appeared first in such and
 such a study.
 QUESTION: Who gave the Long Lance its name, and why ?
 All comments are welcome !

 Carl Wernke
 TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 13 Nov 1993 to 14 Nov 1993
*************************************************

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There are 29 messages totalling 1059 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. David Irving (5)
  2. USAAF 15 NOV 43
  3. WANT: Proof-readers for D-Day book. (2)
  4. Robert Clary speech
  5. Veterans' Day, 1993.
  6. Reply to James Irwin (2)
  7. RAF vs USAAF heavy bombardment (4)
  8. Want:A-Bomb (6)
  9. Enforcing History (2)
 10. Deep Battle (game designs)
 11. Axis self-pity
 12. World War II Studies Association (2)
 13. Gen: Re: Thanks for your "Welcome Aboard"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 06:48:32 -0500
From:    Akira Takiguchi <akira@ATSON.ASAHI-NP.CO.JP>
Subject: Re: David Irving

>His position, as I understand it, is that Hitler was not aware of any
>attempts at murdering the Jews of Europe and he bases that opinion on
>the lack of any document signed by Hitler ordering executions.  He
>also says that there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz or anywhere
>else and that nobody was gassed to death in Nazi Germany.  He has to
>ignore literally tons of documentary evidence to cling to this
>opinion.

     In his 1977 _Hitler's War_ he claimed that Holocaust was not ordered
by Hitler, but he didn't deny the Holocaust itself.  When (or what book)
did he change his opinion?

     His books about Hitler and Rommel are famous for extensive research
but I think he tends to deny somebody else's opinion too harshly;  My
impression stemmed from the note about General Heinrici's scheme used
on the Oder front (retreat to the 2nd front before attack).  Irving
discredits Ryan (_The Last Battle_), insisting that this scheme was
Hitler's own invention.  But as Ryan's readers know, Heinrici used the
same scheme from winter 1941.  It must be true that Hitler ordered that,
but it is an overstatement that there is no reason to credit Heinrici
for the effective defense.
--
      Akira Takiguchi  VP, ATSON, Inc.  (a subsidiary of the Asahi Shimbun)
             CANAL TOWER  9-3 Nihonbashi-Koamicho Chuo-ku Tokyo 103  Japan
   +81 3 3666 2881(voice) 2882(fax)  EMAIL TO <akira@atson.asahi-np.co.jp>
--

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 07:08:57 -0500
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 15 NOV 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
MONDAY, 15 NOVEMBER 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-70, Douglas

CENTRAL PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Seventh Air Force): 20+ B-24's from
Canton Island in the Phoenix Islands and Nanumea Island in the Ellice Islands
bomb Jaluit Atoll in the Marshall Islands, Mille Atoll in the Caroline
Islands, and Makin Island in the Gilbert Islands.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 20 B-24's are dispatched against the
Hong Kong-Kowloon area. Bad weather prevents 15 bombers from bombing the
targets; 5 bomb the docks at Kowloon.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): B-24's bomb Eleusis airfield in
Greece; P-38's provide escort.
  HQ 42d Bombardment Group (Medium) transfers from Ariana, Tunisia to Elmas,
Sardinia.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): XII Air Support Command B-25's bomb
Kalamaki airfield in Greece, and its fighters patrol the battle area. Other
Northwest African Tactical Air Force (NATAF) fighters hit road traffic S of
Ancona, Italy.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, 20 B-24's strike the airfield on Buka Island. On Bougainville Island,
18 B-24's bomb Kahili; fighter patrols destroy or damage several barges along
the coast and destroy 2 fuel dumps at Tonolai.
  The 72d Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 5th Bombardment Group (Heavy), ceases
operating from Guadalcanal Island and returns to it's base at Espiritu Santo
Island, New Hebrides Islands with B-24's.
  The 106th Reconnaissance Squadron (Bombardment), III Reconnaissance Command,
arrives on Guadalcanal Island from the US with B-25's. The squadron will be
reassigned to the Thirteenth Air Force on 19 Nov and will fly it's first
mission on 30 Jan 44.
  The 419th Night Fighter Squadron, XIII Fighter Command, arrives on
Guadalcanal Island from the US with P-38's and P-70's. The squadron will fly
it's first mission on 10 Dec.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 30+
B-24's pound Alexishafen; 88 B-25's heading for Wewak and Boram with an escort
of 16 P-40's are intercepted by Japanese fighters that are escorting bombers
attacking Gusap; the resulting battle causes the B-25's to abort the attack;
the US airplanes claim 20 of the enemy shot down; 2 P-40's are lost; P-47's
claim 5 more aircraft destroyed over Wewak.
  The 68th Troop Carrier Squadron, 433d Troop Carrier Group transfers from
Port Moresby to Nadzab, New Guinea with C-47's.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 07:38:31 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: WANT: Proof-readers for D-Day book.

I've got replies from several people and will respond with a group message
to you when the replies settle down.

Thanks to those who replied already and I still need a few more readers to
reduce the amount of work any one person needs.

I'll send the full details of the project along this evening.

Larrry J

JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 06:49:10 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Robert Clary speech

Tim,

That presentation sounds most interesting. I, for one, would be very
interested in any additional details you may learn about Mr. Clary.
You may e-mail me privately, if noone else is interested.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 06:57:07 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: David Irving

Akira,

Thank you very much for that post. David Irving has sunk to a new
low, as far as I am concerned. Hitler had to know of the Holocaust,
because he was present at a get-together in which Henrietta von
Schirach made explicit reference to a roundup of Jews she had
personally witnessed while on a visit to Holland. Hitler was most
embarrassed at this revelation, and von Schirach's wife was never
in attendance at any other of these functions.

Thus, as far as I am concerned, Hitler had to know what was going on,
even if he had never actually ordered the Final Solution. However, I
personally think he did order it, and it is inconceivable to me that
an operation of this magnitude or anything else of consequence
in Germany at that time could not have been made known to him. My
feeling is, is that he verbally ordered this action himself,
but wanted absolutely nothing in print that could link his name with
this operation.

Thanks, again, Akira.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 06:59:08 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Veterans' Day, 1993.

Date sent:      Fri, 12 Nov 1993 16:19:16 EST
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
From:           Charles Reace <creace@ISD.CSC.COM>
Subject:        Re: Veterans' Day, 1993.
Originally to:  WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

> We veterans in the private sector are required to work on OUR day . . .

I for one am glad we've always had plenty of people in this country
ready to put their lives on the line in its defense.  Each of you
certainly deserves one day off each year for such service.  But, if you
think about it, maybe it would be better if we just had the day but
let no one at all off from work.  It seems that when you make something
into a holiday, it starts to demean it -- at least in the US.  It becomes
an excuse to have special sales at the stores, barbecues, parties,
etc.  Just look at Christmas, or at Memorial day (which is supposed to
honor those who *died* for our country, while we drink beer and eat
BBQ'ed hot dogs!)

So each year, on the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh
month; pause at whatever you're doing and imagine a lone bugler in the
distance playing Taps, and give a profound "Thank you."


Amen to that, Charles!!

Terry



Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 08:16:29 EST
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Reply to James Irwin

On Sun, 14 Nov 1993 14:37:12 CST Lou Coatney said:
>Yes, I'd say morality was pretty well out the window in WWII, and the Axis
>  were responsible for that.  Rape of Nanking, Bombing of Rotterdam,
>  Holocaust, etc., etc.
>
>Only deterrence prevailed, and that only because of demonstrated strength
>  and ruthlessness by the Allies -- finally.  The Axis only became
>  self-pitying and concerned with the morality of war once they were losing
>  and suffering themselves.

Actually, it didn't.  When Axis cities were going up in flames, they no
longer had the capacity to retaliate in kind, so talk of deterrence is moot.
I'm not sure what you mean by "self-pitying and concerned with the morality
of war", since at one level I don't think they *ever* were, and at a much lower
level, I think they *always* were.  My impression of the British aerial
campaign is that "Bomber" Harris just wanted revenge in spades & didn't
particularly care how he got it.

ken koester
maint2@ers.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 08:59:32 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <kc5318@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: RAF vs USAAF heavy bombardment

>On Fri, 12 Nov 1993 12:34:31 EST Denis Ouellette, Indiana Univ said:
>>One point to keep in mind is the relatively smaller size bombs and
>>bomb loads dropped by US bombers.  Being on target doesn't help much
>>if the munition isn't having much impact. (This point was made previosly
>>with respect to the fact that the Germans found that many factories hit
>>sustained only damage to the structure but most of the machine tools were
>>left untouched - the reason - the inadequate 500 pound bombs used by the
>>USSAF)
>
>Possibly, although I would suspect it is more a matter of needing direct
>hits to do much more than superficial damage.  Bombarding armor with
>155s instead of 75s doesn't get many more hits, for example; the same is
>likely true of machine tools.  I'd like to find a study sometime.
>
>ken koester
>maint2@ers.bitnet
>

Ken,
     The problem with 500 pound bombs was that they did not do much more than
blow off roofs without damaging equipment below.  Besides their effectiveness
against transportation targets that I mentiond earlier, they were also ideal
for oil targets, however.  Once the AAF oriented on the proper target systems,
the 500 pounders were more than adequate.  Support for this line of argument is
abundant in the US Strategic Bombing Survey and German accounts.


                                             LTC Con Crane
                                             USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 11:34:43 -0400
From:    Cagan Gurer <CCGURER@OWUCOMCN.BITNET>
Subject: Want:A-Bomb

I really don't know if this subjest has been discussed before or not, but
what I wanna know is that what was the major purpose of the Americans to
invent the A-bomb? Was the reason to use it on Germany? and did they know
anything about the effects of radiation?
Cagan
CCGURER@CC.OWU.EDU
CCGURER@OWUCOMN

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 10:37:50 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: Enforcing History

In Bill Thacker's message of 14 Nov 1993 at 1555 CST, he writes:

> > with a 15,000 DM (as I recall) fine for his public comments.  He
> > appealed the decision and the judge hearing the appeal quadrupled the
> > fine (yea! Justice prevails!).
>
> German justice, perhaps.  Not mine.
>
> I guess George Orwell's _1984_ is passe' now, but it should be required
> reading for anyone who thinks the government ought to have the power to
> declare the Truth and penalize those who disagree.  This particular example
> might make that power look appealing, but think about it!

I've read _1984_ and _Fahrenheit 451_ but governments are in place to
serve and protect the people (although there are those who argue
that they are in power to stay in power for their own purposes, I
don't want to get afield of my point).

Germany has an elected government at the present time.  I feel that
the fine levied against Irving was a statement from the German
Government saying that the CURRENT German Govt. is looking out for
ALL its citizens and that it was quadrupled is indicative of the fact
that they mean business.  Irving is no victim.  He seems to thrive on
the notoriety just as Hitler did.  Irving is inciting hatred and
violence.  Even the US government has laws that forbid inciting riots
and revolution.  He is promoting the same ideas that a generation of
Americans and Brits went to war to eradicate.  Call me naive but I
think the current German government and people do not want the Nazis
to return to power.  I think Irving's prosecution was "from the
heart" rather than political.

> Should Christopher Columbus be honored as a gallant explorer or despised as
> a genocidal invader?  Who on this list would care to have our beloved
> Congress tell us, and fine or arrest anyone who disagrees?   Ideas, right
> or wrong, and the ability to express them, are what freedom is about.  And
> the ideas that are most important are often the ones the government doesn't
> want heard.

I know you are not equating the Holocaust with the discovery of the
Americas.  As for Congress, if they failed to protect Americans
legislatively they would not be doing their job.  It is important to
see through the veil that Freedom of Speech is used to camouflage
racism.  Our laws are fairly clear that you can say what you want but
if it is damaging to another person you can be sued for it.  The
nazis' platform is not that we should listen to Wagner over Pink
Floyd.  Those nuts are saying that some people have more right to
live than other people!!!  If government didn't stop people being
able to put those ideas into practice then what "freedom" does the
victim enjoy?

Say I write a book saying that left handed people are the root of all
evil and that the world would be a better place without them.  When
people take to the idea and start killing left handed people in an
effort to test my theory don't you think the freedom of left handed
may be infringed?  Would I be justified in saying that my freedom of
speech was being denied when the left handed world dropped a class
action suit on my silly ass for having done such a fool thing?  That's
the way I see these nazis operating.  They have the opinion that
freedom only applies to them.  It don't.  That's why they get fined
and sent to jail.  I have no problem with this.  Nobody is putting
the Flat Earth Society in jail or fining them.  Do you see my point??

I don't mean to jump on you Bill, and please don't think that I am
because I am not but I feel strongly that it is terribly
important to see that Irving and his chums are no friends of mankind.
I think you may not be completely informed on Irving's goals and
affiliations.  A lot of people are surprised.  I only learned of his
dealings this year and I was taken aback when I learned of his
activities.

Regards, Bill Huber
whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil


> Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
> (614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              wbt@cbemf.att.com
>                       Humpty Dumpty was pushed!

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 11:52:18 EST
From:    Charles Reace <creace@ISD.CSC.COM>
Subject: Re: WANT: Proof-readers for D-Day book.

LJ, I could help you out if you still need proofers.  I even worked for 5
years at a typesetting company so I actually feel semi-qualified.  If you
need me, I would prefer PC-compatible files.  Other than ASCII I can support
WordPerfect, and can get access to Word (and of course Write in Windows).

Reply to creace@isd.csc.com

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <creace@isd.csc.com>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 11:55:13 EST
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: RAF vs USAAF heavy bombardment

On Mon, 15 Nov 1993 08:59:32 EST Crane Conrad LTC said:
>     The problem with 500 pound bombs was that they did not do much more than
>blow off roofs without damaging equipment below.  Besides their effectiveness
>against transportation targets that I mentiond earlier, they were also ideal
>for oil targets, however.  Once the AAF oriented on the proper target systems,
>the 500 pounders were more than adequate. Support for this line of argument is
>abundant in the US Strategic Bombing Survey and German accounts.

Interesting.  But wouldn't any size bomb have the same problem (ie, premature
explosion from point of view of the actual target)?  Were payloads directed
against factories equipped with delayed impact fuses?  Did the Allies make
the same use of deliberately unexploded bombs that the Germans did against
Britain?  I should think that would be particularly effective against oil
targets:  you get the disruption of the raid itself, then the added delay
with dealing with unexploded ordnance before you can try to repair things.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 11:44:05 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: David Irving

In Akira's message of 15 Nov 1993 at 0553 CST, he writes:

> >His position, as I understand it, is that Hitler was not aware of any
> >attempts at murdering the Jews of Europe and he bases that opinion on
> >the lack of any document signed by Hitler ordering executions.  He
> >also says that there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz or anywhere
> >else and that nobody was gassed to death in Nazi Germany.  He has to
> >ignore literally tons of documentary evidence to cling to this
> >opinion.
>
>      In his 1977 _Hitler's War_ he claimed that Holocaust was not ordered
> by Hitler, but he didn't deny the Holocaust itself.  When (or what book)
> did he change his opinion?
>
>       His books about Hitler and Rommel are famous for extensive
> research...

I enjoy reading Irving's books and am in the middle of his biography
of Hermann Goering now but I have to keep in mind the author's frame
of reference.  He is a talented writer and knows how to dig out good
data for his books - no question about that.  Its not that he has
denied the Holocaust because he has not.  He merely says that Hitler
didn't order it and was not aware of it.  Irving says that it was
Himmler and those under Hitler that created this programme of
genocide.  He has freely admitted that he has seen documentation that
he believes are authentic that states the Einsatzgruppen of the SS-TV
accounted for the deaths of more than one million Jews in Russia.  He
says that the documentation on the camps is fake and that the photos
are of cholera victims etc. and that the testimony of the guards and
officers of the camps was beaten out of them.

I don't buy it.  My boss worked in a small town in Germany and while
he was there an old woman jumped off of her apartment building.  In
her apartment was a suicide letter stating that she could no longer
live with the things she did in the camps as a guard.  These camps
were not the vacation resorts that the deniers claim.  Those inmates
were not there by accident and they didn't die by accident.

What he says did NOT happen was the gassing of inmates in
concentration camps using carbon monoxide or hydrogen cyanide (HCN
>from Zyklon B).  This has been his position all along and he has even
offered a large reward for a document linking Hitler to the gassings.
This is why the British government has labeled Irving a "Hitler
apologist", a title he hates.

Some of Irving's followers are not nearly as clever and one offered a
similar reward for anyone who could prove there were gassings at
Auschwitz.  He got sued by a California man who was an Auschwitz
survivor and collected the money in a big court battle that I
believe was made into a TV movie.

Its funny you should mention _Hitler's War_ because in that book is
an excerpt from a message from Himmler that states something to the
effect that a particular transport of Russian prisoners was not to be
liquidated.  The group contained Stalin's son as I recall and Irving
used that as evidence that prisoners were not mistreated.  Irving
cited only the first couple of lines of the message and ignored the
rest which went on to specify that the transport was not to be
liquidated until Stalin's son was removed so he could be used as a
political pawn (the Germans didn't realize that Stalin hated his son).
This is an example of how Irving uses his research to prove his
theories.  This one backfired when someone took him to task on it and
looked it up for themselves.  This and countless other examples of
Irving's historical manipulations are in the archives of Ken McVay's
list server.

In the above example it struck many thinking people as odd that if it
was policy not to mistreat Russian prisoners as Irving suggests then
why did Himmler feel it was necessary to send a message to the effect
that this particular transport not be "liquidated".  Sometimes Irving
outsmarts himself.

Ciao, Bill Huber
whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil


>       Akira Takiguchi  VP, ATSON, Inc.  (a subsidiary of the Asahi Shimbun)
>              CANAL TOWER  9-3 Nihonbashi-Koamicho Chuo-ku Tokyo 103  Japan
>    +81 3 3666 2881(voice) 2882(fax)  EMAIL TO <akira@atson.asahi-np.co.jp>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 12:15:26 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Reply to James Irwin

Date sent:      Mon, 15 Nov 1993 08:16:29 EST
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
From:           Ken Koester <MAINT2%ERS.BITNET@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
Subject:        Re: Reply to James Irwin
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

On Sun, 14 Nov 1993 14:37:12 CST Lou Coatney said:
>Yes, I'd say morality was pretty well out the window in WWII, and the Axis
>  were responsible for that.  Rape of Nanking, Bombing of Rotterdam,
>  Holocaust, etc., etc.
>
>Only deterrence prevailed, and that only because of demonstrated strength
>  and ruthlessness by the Allies -- finally.  The Axis only became
>  self-pitying and concerned with the morality of war once they were losing
>  and suffering themselves.

Actually, it didn't.  When Axis cities were going up in flames, they no
longer had the capacity to retaliate in kind, so talk of deterrence is moot.
I'm not sure what you mean by "self-pitying and concerned with the morality
of war", since at one level I don't think they *ever* were, and at a much lower
level, I think they *always* were.  My impression of the British aerial
campaign is that "Bomber" Harris just wanted revenge in spades & didn't
particularly care how he got it.

Ken,

I think "Bomber" Harris thought two things about the night bombing
of German cities. Firstly, that the bombing, at that time, was the
only direct way to get at the Germans on their own soil. Secondly,
he felt that any bombing of German territory would have some effect
on civilian morale and, above all, the economy and Germany's capacity
to make and wage war. I think he genuinely felt that the night
bombing of German cities was having an effect on the conduct of the
war, and, given British attitudes at the time, he felt that his
campaign fully reflected the Government's position and public
opinion.

Terry


Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 09:33:16 CST
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Deep Battle (game designs)

James,

     Have you seen the books by David Glantz and ? Simpkins on Soviet/
Tukhachevskii's deep battle theories and applications?

     David (a serving officer at Ft. Leavanworth) has authored a number of
other books on Soviet military theory and history -- most published in
Britain.  (Only the British seem to know a good, publishing-worthy book
when they see one.)  I consider him to now be more informative than even
John Erickson (and his protege, Simpkins).

     One of my embryonic Russian Front game designs/approaches may be the
ultimate operational simulation/analysis of WWII mobile warfare.  I am
finally finishing my Katyn thesis.  On the other hand, trying to relocate
may knock me/it out of (the game's) development for another couple of years.

     You definitely should see Glantz's book on (Soviet) deception --
"maskirovka."

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 12:32:49 CST
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Axis self-pity

Ken,

     Compare the German war art of the first half of the war against that of
the second half of the war, and I think you will see a remarkable difference.

     Even the Japanese art/coverage of the Kamikaze is tragic in tone.

     German wartime indignation at Allied bombing is distraught (as it is
ironic).

     The V-2 could have carried "Tapun" (sp?), instead of the limited,
conventional payload that it did.

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 12:36:06 CST
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: World War II Studies Association

Is everyone here a member.  (We used to be called the American Committee on
  the History of the Second World War.)

A lot of good info.  (Of course, this net serves much the same purpose, for
  those who have access to it.)

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 14:43:50 EST
From:    Charles Reace <creace@ISD.CSC.COM>
Subject: Re: Enforcing History

> > Should Christopher Columbus be honored as a gallant explorer or despised
> > as a genocidal invader? . . .

Actually I suspect most "native Americans" (which really of course means
they got here before the Europeans) probably would vote for genocidal
invader.  I might vote for one of the luckiest screw-ups in history.

Anyway, as far as "enforcing history" goes, I think there is a fine line
which the German government felt was crossed between expressing opinions
and inciting others to actions which ifringe upon the rights of others.
If Irving and others wish to express questions as to the validity of com-
monly accepted historical 'fact' (quotes to emphasize the question of how
does anybody really know anything), I feel they have the right to express
those questions.  If they express deliberate falsehoods, and are proven
to have done so, there are libel, slander, and other laws which may cover
this.  If their intent is to incite violence, harassment, or other in-
fringements of human rights on other citizens of this world, as so judged
by the appropriate jury or judicial body; then they should be appropriately
prohibited from such instigation.

Obviously, there is a lot of subjectivity in any such evaluation; and I
for one would always vote for erring on the side of freedom of speech
wherever the choice is not clear.

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <creace@isd.csc.com>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 11:53:52 -0800
From:    Julian E Gomez <jeg@APPLE.COM>
Subject: Re: RAF vs USAAF heavy bombardment

>...
>were very unsteady bombing platforms. On the other hand, B-17s carried too few
>bombs for area raids, and had no flame dampers to avoid easy detection at
>...

What is a flame damper?



"I was a precocious child and obviously destined to be a scientist."

        Dr. Julian "a tribble took it" Gomez
        Apple Computer, Inc.  408/862-1289 or 996-1010
        jeg@apple.com  julian.g@applelink.apple.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 15:40:36 EST
From:    Chuck McCormick <chuckm@AREC.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Want:A-Bomb

>I really don't know if this subjest has been discussed before or not, but
>what I wanna know is that what was the major purpose of the Americans to
>invent the A-bomb? Was the reason to use it on Germany? and did they know
>anything about the effects of radiation?
>Cagan
>CCGURER@CC.OWU.EDU
>CCGURER@OWUCOMN

I am no A-bomb expert but I'll let 'er rip anyway.  The B-29 crews who were
trained in dropping the bomb practiced and trained on German cities, maps and
models.  They expected the bomb to be ready before Germany was out of the war.
However, once the war in Europe was over it made 'sense' to the military
planners, political leaders, and most of the scientists to drop it on Japan.
Why were two bombs dropped four days apart?  My theory is that it was because
there were two different teams producing two different designs.  They wanted to
test both designs and *perhaps* for reasons of professional jealously they had
to use both designs.  The ironic thing is that if they had dropped two on
Germany the Nazis probably would have fought on.  That's the sort of mind-set
that Hitler had; if he was going to lose he would take everyone with him.

Scientists knew something about radiation but A LOT LESS than they do today.
There were lots of experiments done after the war on live humans to see what
effects radiation had.

Chuck
chuckm@arec.umd.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 16:03:10 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <kc5318@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: RAF vs USAAF heavy bombardment

>
>
>Interesting.  But wouldn't any size bomb have the same problem (ie, premature
>explosion from point of view of the actual target)?  Were payloads directed
>against factories equipped with delayed impact fuses?  Did the Allies make
>the same use of deliberately unexploded bombs that the Germans did against
>Britain?  I should think that would be particularly effective against oil
>targets:  you get the disruption of the raid itself, then the added delay
>with dealing with unexploded ordnance before you can try to repair things.
>

 Ken,
     The problem with delayed action bombs was that they tended to bury
themselves without doing much damage.  The British used them a lot in bombing
cities, they were supposed to discourage firefighting efforts and the like.
The Americans did not.  The advantage of the big British bombs was their
massive blast effect, it didn't matter if they exploded early because they
would cause so much collateral damage.

                                                  Con Crane

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 16:08:44 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <kc5318@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: David Irving

Wasn't David Irving the main expert sucked into believing the Hitler diaries?
He also had to recant the casualty figures in his book on Dresden, admitting
that he inflated them. I don't think many in the historical profession think
very highly of him anymore.
                                  LTC Con Crane
                                        USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 16:41:21 EST
From:    Charles <mcgrew@CS.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Want:A-Bomb

        Cagan Gurer <CCGURER@owucomcn.bitnet> writes:

        I really don't know if this subjest has been discussed before
        or not, but what I wanna know is that what was the major
        purpose of the Americans to invent the A-bomb? Was the reason
        to use it on Germany? and did they know anything about the
        effects of radiation?


Short answers:
        Yes, it has been discussed before.
        The purpose of developing the bomb was to use it, and use
                it before it was used on the Allies.
        The original target (and reason) for developing the
                atomic bomb was Germany (the fear was that the
                Germans, who were known to be well-along in nuclear
                physics, would develop their own bomb and use it.)
        Radiation was a known hazard, but the theoreticans working
                on the problem believed that its effective 'range'
                was less that blast-effects.  They were wrong (and
                quite surprised to find it out.)


Longer answers:

   The major mover-n-shaker in the starting up of the US-bomb program
was a Hungarian physicist named Leo Szilard.  Quite an amazing fellow
he was - brilliant, eccentric, funny, arrogant -- if you get a chance
to read up on him, do so.  It was he who convinced Einstein and others
to send the famous letter to Roosevelt that kicked off the program.
(Of course, Roosevelt was clever enough to see its value and come up
with the billions to see it through -- Szilard worked on the program
in Chicago, btw.)

   The Germans had been early pioneers in nuclear physics; Szilard and
others were worried that given the straightforwardness of making
atomic bombs (that is, once you know how it works, all you need is a
lot of money, resources, and smart people - things the Germans had -
and you'll get a bomb) that they would.  As it turned out, the Germans
played it very stupidly, first by turning out all their Jewish
scientists, and in denigrating such "jewish science" as nuclear
physics, and then by allocating relatively pitiful amounts of effort
into their program.  (The Japanese had a nuclear-weapons research
program too, it turns out, but they allocated even less to theirs.)
While the US paid the prices required to manufacture the weapons-grade
uranium and plutonium and engineer the bomb itself, their enemies were
never really in the race.  (This was not known until very late in the
game, of course.)

   Anyway, while the scientists involved pretty much saw themselves as
making their bomb to use on Germany, higher-ups in the government
didn't see any real difference between the two Axis enemies.  So when
Germany surrendered before the program completed, the bomb got used on
Japan.  (Its pretty clear that no one in the program or policymakers
quite understood the bomb as "the bomb" - as we see it today -- it was
just another weapon; they saw it as just a very very good bomb.)

   While there were some in the picture who wanted to not use the bomb
"in anger", the idea that the Japanese would be cowed into
surrendering by a demonstration (after enduring firebomb attacks that
were actually worse than the atomic attacks) is a tad naive, really.
The idea that the US would not use a weapon for 'moral reasons' (not
that I much care for Bomber Harris, but as he puts it: "show me one
moral thing in war") while its sons are being killed day by day in the
war is naive too.

   As far as radiation goes, the scientists involved certainly knew
about radiation effects (without radiation effects, how could there be
an explosion?), but the best guess at the time was succinctly put that
people who would be hurt by the radiation would be already dead from a
flying brick (i.e. from direct blast effects.)

Hope this helps,

Charles

PS - A good book to start you off:

   AUTHOR Wyden, Peter.
    TITLE Day one : before Hiroshima and after / Peter Wyden.
PUBLISHER New York : Simon and Schuster, c1984.

(available in paperback)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 15:42:57 -0600
From:    Sandra Torres <storres@SUN.CIS.SMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Want:A-Bomb

> I really don't know if this subjest has been discussed before or not, but
> what I wanna know is that what was the major purpose of the Americans to
> invent the A-bomb? Was the reason to use it on Germany? and did they know
> anything about the effects of radiation?
> Cagan
> CCGURER@CC.OWU.EDU
> CCGURER@OWUCOMN
>
>From what little I know, the main reason for developing the a-bomb was to
do it before the Germans did.  There were rumors that the Germans were working
on the a-bomb, but at the time Germany was winning the war and Hitler didn't
think they needed it.  By the end of the war, when Germany really needed an
ace like the a-bomb, it was too late, and they didn't have the time,
money, or scientists to do it.

When the U.S. was first approached by Eistein and others, no one thought too
highly of atomic warfare.  The government sat on the proposal for a year
or so before anything was done, but when they did pick it up, they worked
continuously up to the very last minute.

As to how much they knew about radiation, there's a documentary about the
atomic age called _Atomic Cafe_.  In the briefing sessions for soldiers
viewing the test explosions, they were told that the primary thing to be
concerned about during an atomic explosion was heat.  Radiation was treated
as a secondary after effect.

_Ivitation to an Inquest_ is a book dealing mainly with the Rosenberg/Sobell
spy ring, but the beginning of the book has a brief but very informative
section on the development of the atomic bomb.

Sandra Torres  (storres@sun.cis.smu.edu)
History Dept.
SMU Dallas, TX

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 16:20:17 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Want:A-Bomb

Date sent:      Mon, 15 Nov 1993 11:34:43 -0400
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
From:           Cagan Gurer <CCGURER%OWUCOMCN.BITNET@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
Subject:        Want:A-Bomb
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

I really don't know if this subjest has been discussed before or not, but
what I wanna know is that what was the major purpose of the Americans to
invent the A-bomb? Was the reason to use it on Germany? and did they know
anything about the effects of radiation?
Cagan
CCGURER@CC.OWU.EDU
CCGURER@OWUCOMN

Cagan,

Yes. This country was very much involved in the development of atomic
power before our entry into WWII. It was Albert Einstein who wrote a
letter to the President urging this country to investigate the
potential use of atomic power for use in weapons.

The effects of radiation were well known even at that time. What
wasn't certain was that even if the A-bomb were ever built, there was
no guarantee it would work, nor just what the effects long or short
term effects would be.

If memory serves me correctly, if the bomb had been developed soon
enough, it would have been used against Germany. It was also well-
known through defections and the like, that the Germans were also
pursuing their own experiments, but theirs took the path of deuterium
oxide or "heavy water" development which would have taken longer, but
would have eventually arrived at the same result as our A-bomb
development using uranium as the base.

The Japanese, on the other hand, had only dabbled in this research,
although they were aware of the potentialities of such a weapon but,
being of their mindset, they felt that since it was so expensive to
pursue and develop on their part, the US and the other allies would
have faced the same obstacles, and opted to remain with conventional
weapons. It was only much later in the war that the Japanese began to
investigate development of an atomic bomb for their purposes.

David Irving published a book in the early 60's, I think, that deals
exclusively with the German atomic bomb project. It is called "The
German Atomic Bomb". There was also another book published later on
that is called "The Alsos Mission" written by an American colonel who
was commissioned by Eisenhower's HQ to locate all fissionable
materials associated with this project. The bulk of these materials
were located and seized near Karlsruhe.

Hope this helps.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 14:22:53 -0800
From:    Julian E Gomez <jeg@APPLE.COM>
Subject: Re: David Irving

>Some of Irving's followers are not nearly as clever and one offered a
>similar reward for anyone who could prove there were gassings at
>Auschwitz.  He got sued by a California man who was an Auschwitz
>survivor and collected the money in a big court battle that I
>believe was made into a TV movie.

The movie was called "Never Again" and starred Leonard Nimoy. It was on the
USA network a few years ago.



"I was a precocious child and obviously destined to be a scientist."

        Dr. Julian "a tribble took it" Gomez
        Apple Computer, Inc.  408/862-1289 or 996-1010
        jeg@apple.com  julian.g@applelink.apple.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 17:56:27 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: World War II Studies Association

>
> Is everyone here a member.  (We used to be called the American Committee on
>   the History of the Second World War.)

So tell us about it!

> A lot of good info.  (Of course, this net serves much the same purpose, for
>   those who have access to it.)

Can't have too many sources (just too much to read :-(.

> Lou Coatney, WIU

Larry J

JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 16 Nov 1993 00:04:56 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVSDS.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: Want:A-Bomb

On Mon, 15 Nov 1993, Cagan Gurer wrote:

> I really don't know if this subjest has been discussed before or not, but
> what I wanna know is that what was the major purpose of the Americans to
> invent the A-bomb? Was the reason to use it on Germany?

Nobody ever thought much about its use; it all seemed logical. The reasoning
was (a) the US could not afford to have later than any other nation,
especially if this was to be Germany; (2) there was a war going on and any
bomb that could hit the enemy was a good bomb.

'Invent' isn't the word. Once the fission of Uranium was known, the
possibility of building a bomb was known to most nuclear physicists.
Interestingly, the people who interested the USA in building one were
mainly emigrated Europeans, who knew what nazism was like: Szilard,
Teller, Wigner, Fermi, Einstein...

> and did they know
> anything about the effects of radiation?

Of course. Not so much as is known now, but there was a quite interesting
study by Oppenheimer on the subject of radioactive poisoning -- dusting
Germany with radioactive material. His conclusion was that it wasn't
worth the effort, unless could you kill a large enough number of people.
the number was something like 100,000 I think.

Emmanuel.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 22:51:45 EST
From:    "TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET" <TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET>
Subject: Gen: Re: Thanks for your "Welcome Aboard"

  X-To:  whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil (William Huber-SCDR)WWII-L@ubvm.bitnet

  The network control indicated they could not accept your address.Therefore,
  I am using List WWII-L and request that this reply be relayed to you.Also,
  I am glad that you received my third attempt to post Re:MA in Military
  History, etc.
  I am glad that we finally made an E-Mail connection. Hope to hear from you
  soon. Give Larry my best regards from a USN (Ret) shipmate. I would be
  happy to discuss with him any type of "sea-going" yarn, taken from my
  twenty-four years of sea duty.
  I wish you the very best in your PhD program. If I can assist you in your
  research, please contact me. --I have sections of the book,History of the
  German General Staff, 1657-1945, by Walter Goerlitz, 1959.
  Carl Wernke       TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 14 Nov 1993 to 15 Nov 1993
*************************************************

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Status: O

There are 17 messages totalling 547 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. David Irving (5)
  2. World War II Studies Association
  3. USAAF 16 NOV 43
  4. the best German night fighter pilot (3)
  5. David Irving and Hitler's diaries (2)
  6. Want:A-Bomb (2)
  7. RAF vs USAAF heavy bombardment
  8. Addr: David Irving
  9. Reply to James Irwin

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Nov 1993 23:31:21 CST
From:    Steve Alvin <salvin@HEARTLAND.BRADLEY.EDU>
Subject: Re: David Irving

Irving's first book was on the Destruction of Convoy PQ 17 (which
might be the title).  The commander of the British covering
force took Irving to court for Liable as result of some of
Irving' claims--and won.  Irving's works give history a bad
name.

--
Steve Alvin
salvin@heartland.bradley.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 16 Nov 1993 03:06:15 EST
From:    "Denis Ouellette, Indiana Univ" <OUELLETT@UCS.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: World War II Studies Association

Lou-
For those of us who are not members could you provide some more information?

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 16 Nov 1993 06:59:25 -0500
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 16 NOV 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
TUESDAY, 16 NOVEMBER 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-70, Douglas

CENTRAL PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Seventh Air Force): B-24's from Nanumea
and Nukufetau Islands in the Ellice Islands bomb Jaluit and Maloelap Atolls in
the Marshall Islands. Single aircraft hit Kwajalein Atoll in the Marshall
Islands and Little Makin Island and Tarawa Atoll in the Gilbert Islands.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 11 B-24's, 2 B-25's, and 4 P-40's
attack the docks at Kowloon; 2 B-25's damage 2 freighters near Nampang and
Saint John Island, 2 more score hits on a tanker off the China coast S of
Swatow, and 2 others bomb barracks and a warehouse on Nampang Island; 6 P-40's
on armed reconnaissance in the Yen Bay-Dong Cuong area strafe railroad
stations and barracks; 1 B-25 and 12 P-40's hit a cavalry unit, barge, houses,
and numerous sampans at Shihmen; the Li-Chou area also is attacked.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALLIED EXPEDITIONARY AIR FORCE: Air Marshal Sir Tafford L Leigh-Mallory,
Royal Air Force (RAF), is named Air Commander-in-Chief, Allied Expeditionary
Air Force (AEAF). Brigadier General William O Butler, USAAF, is named Deputy
Commanding General.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): VIII Bomber Command Mission 131.
Two targets in Norway are hit with the loss of 2 bombers.
  1. 130 of 189 B-17's hit the industrial area at Oslo at 1133-1238 hours;
they claim 2-0-4 Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 B-17 is lost and 7 damaged; casualties
are 1 WIA and 10 MIA.
  2. 147 of 160 B-17's hit the industrial area at Rjukan at 1143-1145 hours; 1
B-17 is lost and 1 damaged beyond repair; casualties are 2 KIA and 10 MIA.
  3. 29 of 39 B-24's hit the industrial area at Rjukan at 1204-1212 hours; no
losses or casualties.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In France, B-17's bomb the
Istres-Le-Tube airfield, and B-26's hit Salon-de-Provence airfield. P-38's
escort the B-26's and also a Northwest African Tactical Air Force (NATAF) B-25
attack on the airfield at Eleusis, Greece.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): B-25's bomb the airfields at
Sibenik, Yugoslavia and Eleusis, Greece; the latter mission is escorted by
Fifteenth Air Force P-38's.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands during the night of 15/16 Nov P-70's harass Kahili airfield on
Bougainville Island. In the daylight, 20 B-25's and 4 B-24's pound the
airfield on Buka Island, 20+ other B-25's fly sweeps over areas of the
Bougainville coastline, Buka Passage, and Sohano Island; supply dumps and
barges are hit; 30+ P-40's and P-39's also carry out sweeps over the area,
hitting gun positions and other targets in the Buka Passage, several targets
of opportunity along the E coast, Kieta harbor, Tonolai harbor, and Ballale
Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea,
B-25's hit installations near Finschhafen and bomb and strafe a coastal track
west of Reiss Point; P-39's, with P-40's covering, strafe barges from Saidor
to Madang. P-38'a battle a large force of fighters over Wewak, destroying 6; 2
P-38's are lost.
  The 7th Fighter Squadron, 49th Fighter Group, transfers from Dobodura to
Gusap, New Guinea with P-40's and P-47's.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 16 Nov 1993 12:04:00 GMT,BST
From:    John Gillies <JOHNG@PSY4.PSY.GLA.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: David Irving

Con Crane writes:

> Wasn't David Irving the main expert sucked into believing the Hitler diaries?
> He also had to recant the casualty figures in his book on Dresden, admitting
> that he inflated them. I don't think many in the historical profession think
> very highly of him anymore.
>                                   LTC Con Crane
>                                         USMA
Whatever his other sins, Irving wasn't the "guilty man" who unwisely
"authenticated" the Hitler Diaries. It was the highly respected and
eminent historian Hugh Trevor-Roper (Lord Dacre).
Just goes to show .....

John





John Gillies
Department of Psychology
Adam Smith Building
University of Glasgow
Glasgow  G12 8RT                      Tel: (0)41 339 8855 ext.5351
Scotland
                         johng@psy.glasgow.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 16 Nov 1993 14:00:05 MET
From:    Ireneusz Jakobik <SCUD@PLSZUS11.BITNET>
Subject: the best German night fighter pilot

Hello,
Mike Long wanted to know who had been the best German night fighter
pilot. It was Major Heinz Wolfgang Schraufer, who shot down 121 aircraft.
He was one of 10 German pilots to be awarded with Knight Cross with Swords
and Daimonds (Ritter Kreutz mit dem Einchenlaub mit Schwertern und Brillanten).
I don't know what kind of an aircraft he flew and in what squadron he fought.
Next on the list of night fighter pilots was Major Helmut Lent with 102 air
victories.
-Irek.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 16 Nov 1993 07:01:58 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: David Irving

Date sent:      Mon, 15 Nov 1993 16:08:44 EST
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
From:           Crane Conrad LTC <kc5318@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject:        Re: David Irving
Originally to:  WWII-L@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

Wasn't David Irving the main expert sucked into believing the Hitler diaries?
He also had to recant the casualty figures in his book on Dresden, admitting
that he inflated them. I don't think many in the historical profession think
very highly of him anymore.
                                  LTC Con Crane
                                        USMA

Con,

Both David Irving and Sir Hugh Trevor-Roper were the principal
experts sucked into believing the Hitler diaries. I wasn't aware that
Irving had to recant the casualty figures in his book on Dresden.
When did this occur? And, of course, you are quite right. No
reputable historian, of whom I am aware, want anything to do with
him.

I have often wondered why David Irving, who very early in his career
has published many scholarly works, as you know, would allow himself
to fall into such disrepute. I know he had been through a painful
divorce coupled with the fact that he has had pressure put upon him
by his publisher to crank out more research. Perhaps this and other
unknown influences have affected him psychologically.

Do you have any thoughts?

Terry


Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 16 Nov 1993 14:23:25 MET
From:    Ireneusz Jakobik <SCUD@PLSZUS11.BITNET>
Subject: David Irving and Hitler's diaries

Hello,
Few years ago Polish TV showed a short (3 or 4 episodes) German TV series
about 'discovery' of Hitler's diaries. It wasn't a documental series, but
a comedy with lots of Wagner music. Irving was shown as the most sceptical
person who proved that the diaries were fake. Other expert just compared
few pages from diaries with Hitler's handwritting, which had been produced
by the same guy who had written diaries. That's why he (an expert) was so
sure that the diaries had been written by Hitler.
-Irek.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 16 Nov 1993 08:48:01 EST
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <hb9388@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Want:A-Bomb

Charles,

A great summary of the  A Bomb effort.

I recommend:  The Making of the Atomic Bomb by Richard Rhodes
              Simon and Schuster, 1986

This is an excellent historical treatment as well as being
correct in its descriptions of the physics.

Bear

Barrett F. Lowe                    RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, US Military Academy, West Point, NY 10996

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 16 Nov 1993 08:57:30 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <kc5318@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: RAF vs USAAF heavy bombardment

>>...
>>were very unsteady bombing platforms. On the other hand, B-17s carried too fe
w
>>bombs for area raids, and had no flame dampers to avoid easy detection at
>>...
>
>What is a flame damper?
>
>
>
>"I was a precocious child and obviously destined to be a scientist."
>
>        Dr. Julian "a tribble took it" Gomez
>        Apple Computer, Inc.  408/862-1289 or 996-1010
>        jeg@apple.com  julian.g@applelink.apple.com
>

A flame damper was a device to lessen the signature from a bomber's exhaust
system at night.  The heat and flames that spurted from the engines could be
seen at long distances in the dark, and made bombers easy to detect by night
fighter.
                                        Con

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 16 Nov 1993 10:55:50 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <kc5318@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: David Irving

Terry,
     Irving recanted on his casualty figures in the early 70's when the records
of the Dresden police were found and listed casualties from the raid at 35,000.
 Irving had bought the Russian and German propaganda line about 135,000 to
200,000 casualties without doing any independent check.  His earlier figure is
still quoted by many who are not aware of the later findings.  I don't know
about his personal problems, but he does seem to be very sloppy in his research
and in too much of a hurry to publish.

                                        Con

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 16 Nov 1993 11:33:36 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: David Irving

Con,

Please let me make an addendum to my earlier note to you about David
Irving. He was associated with the fake Hitler diaries, but not to
the extent that involved Sir Hugh Trevor-Roper. Sir Hugh was the
expert that, after all was said and done, was left standing there
with egg all over his face.

I ran across Irving's involvement in this episode in a book called
"The Selling of Hitler", and the author's name escapes me, but this
book went into much detail about Irving's part in all this.

Just wanted to clarify my answer to you.

Terry


Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 16 Nov 1993 17:02:45 GMT,BST
From:    John Gillies <JOHNG@PSY4.PSY.GLA.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: David Irving and Hitler's diaries

> Hello,
> Few years ago Polish TV showed a short (3 or 4 episodes) German TV series
> about 'discovery' of Hitler's diaries. It wasn't a documental series, but
> a comedy with lots of Wagner music. Irving was shown as the most sceptical
> person who proved that the diaries were fake. Other expert just compared
> few pages from diaries with Hitler's handwritting, which had been produced
> by the same guy who had written diaries. That's why he (an expert) was so
> sure that the diaries had been written by Hitler.
> -Irek.

This was more or less my recollection also - but perhaps my memory
was affected more by the (very funny) comedy series than by the
facts? I certainly recall that it was Trevor-Roper's
"authentication" that was regarded as decisive - in this neck of the
woods anyway.
John
>





John Gillies
Department of Psychology
Adam Smith Building
University of Glasgow
Glasgow  G12 8RT                      Tel: (0)41 339 8855 ext.5351
Scotland
                         johng@psy.glasgow.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 16 Nov 1993 14:10:39 EDT
From:    RICHARD KING <RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Addr: David Irving

This just came today in the mail. I thought I'd add this to the
David Irving discussion.
>From THIS WEEK IN GERMANY (Nov. 12, 1993) (a free weekly publication)

     "Rightwing British historian David Irving has been expelled from
Germany and has already left the country, according to a report
by the German Press Agency on Thursday (Nov. 11). The registry
office for foreigners in Munich, part of the police department
(Auslanderpolizei), had set a deadline of Wednesday at midnight.
According to a police spokesperson, Irving did not appear at
scheduled events.
     "As a reason for the expulsion, the spokesperson said that
Irving's appearances in Germany posed a threat to internal security
and were damaging to Germany's international image; his rightwing
extremist statements also contribute to disturbances. At the same
time, the personnel necessary for constant surveillance make this an
impractical alternative. Irving's books and lectures are concerned
with what he calls the 'guilt question' of the Third Reich; he
denies that the genocide of European Jewry took place."

In a related matter, I just pulled off Irving's book, THE
GERMAN ATOMIC BOMB (1967) from the library shelves after
becoming interested in the atom bomb discussions. Now I wonder
how reliable Irving is, whether to question his research. Is
he really so bad that he should be expelled from Germany. I
can't imagine that happening in the U.S., no matter what his
political views.

If anyone wants to receive THIS WEEK IN GERMANY, you can have it
mailed to your home (free) by contacting Editor SUSAN STEINER,
GERMAN INFORMATION CENTER, 950 Third Ave., New York, NY 10022.
Each issue usually has SOMETHING relevant to the war and its
aftermath.
***************************************************************
Richard L. King, Referencen Librarian, Vincennes (IN) Univ.
RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 16 Nov 1993 16:51:56 -0500
From:    "Sidney W. Kitchel" <kitchel@OCTOPUS.DPSI.COM>
Subject: Re: Want:A-Bomb

Cagan Gurer writes:
|->
|-> I really don't know if this subjest has been discussed before or not, but
|-> what I wanna know is that what was the major purpose of the Americans to
|-> invent the A-bomb?

        You make it sound like we had a lot of choice. Atomic weapons
are based on science and engineering. They are either possible or not.
If one country had the knowledge and technology to make them, then
others could. There was a supposition that Germany was in a position
to create an A-bomb. This drove the US development. It turned out that
even more engineering problems had to be solved than scientific ones.
The US had an advantage in the number and quality of the scientists
and engineers that could be applied to the problem.

|->                    Was the reason to use it on Germany? and did they know
|-> anything about the effects of radiation?

        Germany could have been a target. All the radiation effects
were not well understood until the 1950s after the Japanese experience
and Nevada testing was studied. BTW US soldiers were intentionally
exposed to blast and radiation in Nevada testing.
                                                        --Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel           kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 16 Nov 1993 17:17:28 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: Re: Reply to James Irwin

In your message you write:
>Yes, I'd say morality was pretty well out the window in WWII, and the Axis
>  were responsible for that.  Rape of Nanking, Bombing of Rotterdam,
> Holocaust, etc., etc.
>
But you're begging the question!!  Just because the Germans did
it first, does that mean that morality doesn't enter into it.
If so, the German defense of following orders is justifiable.

>Only deterrence prevailed, and that only because of demonstrated strength
>  and ruthlessness by the Allies -- finally.  The Axis only became
>  self-pitying and concerned with the morality of war once they were losing
>  and suffering themselves.
Again, do two wrongs make a right.  Is firebombing civilians
deterrence or simply revenge?  Is revenge a viable motive for
war?  Should morality be an issue?

>
>I'm grateful my ancestors had the will and ability to do what was necessary
>  for their/our/my survival.
>
>Lou Coatney, WIU
>

My ancestors, including my father did what was necessary.  I
dont't dispute their sacrifice.  That's not what I'm talking
about.  Do we have to morally answer for our prosecution of the
war?  We know what the Germans and the Japanese did because the
winners get to write the textbooks.  What military purpose is
served by firebombing Dresden and Tokyo, killing hundreds of
thousands of civilians?  Should war include civilians?  I don't
have any answers, just a lot of unanswered questions.  And, the
more I study and the more I read, the more questions I come up
with.

Jim Irwin
Defense Personnel Support Center
Philadelphia PA
jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Nov 1993 10:01:45 +1100
From:    Mick Fauchon <ulmjf@DEWEY.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: the best German night fighter pilot

        Irek,

            Major Wolfgang Schnaufer (Ritterkreuz mit Eichenlaub, Schwerten
und Brillanten) ended the war as Kommandeur of IV/NJG 1, flying Bf 110s.

                                                                Cheers,

                                                                Mick.
--                                                                          --
Mick Fauchon                          | Internet: ulmjf@dewey.newcastle.edu.au
Reference Section, Auchmuty Library   | Ph  (intl+61+49) 215861
University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA    | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833


On Tue, 16 Nov 1993, Ireneusz Jakobik wrote:

> Hello,
> Mike Long wanted to know who had been the best German night fighter
> pilot. It was Major Heinz Wolfgang Schraufer, who shot down 121 aircraft.
> He was one of 10 German pilots to be awarded with Knight Cross with Swords
> and Daimonds (Ritter Kreutz mit dem Einchenlaub mit Schwertern und Brillanten).
> I don't know what kind of an aircraft he flew and in what squadron he fought.
> Next on the list of night fighter pilots was Major Helmut Lent with 102 air
> victories.
> -Irek.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Nov 1993 13:18:44 AEST
From:    ccwilber@UQVAX.CC.UQ.OZ.AU
Subject: Re: the best German night fighter pilot

I seem to remember reading a book titled "Full Circle", by British night
fighter ace Alan Cunningham (I think!) which gave some good accounts of
being a night fighter pilot, and what they had to contend with.


Wilber.

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Wilber WILLIAMS                            w.williams@cc.uq.edu.au      |
|Prentice Centre                            Telephone : +61 7 365 4232   |
|The University of Queensland               Facsimile : +61 7 365 4477   |
|Brisbane Qld 4072  AUSTRALIA                                            |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 15 Nov 1993 to 16 Nov 1993
*************************************************

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There are 18 messages totalling 784 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Reply to James Irwin (4)
  2. GEN: Humor (2)
  3. RAF/USAAF statistics (again) (2)
  4. USAAF 17 NOV 43
  5. Addr: Kristallnacht
  6. Addr: David Irving (3)
  7. Kristallnacht
  8. Full Circle (2)
  9. "Committees"
 10. expelling non-citizens (was D. Irving)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 16 Nov 1993 23:13:56 CST
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Reply to James Irwin

> >Yes, I'd say morality was pretty well out the window in WWII, and the Axis
> >  were responsible for that.  Rape of Nanking, Bombing of Rotterdam,
> > Holocaust, etc., etc.
>
> But you're begging the question!!  Just because the Germans did
> it first, does that mean that morality doesn't enter into it.
> If so, the German defense of following orders is justifiable.
>
> >Only deterrence prevailed, and that only because of demonstrated strength
> >  and ruthlessness by the Allies -- finally.  The Axis only became
> >  self-pitying and concerned with the morality of war once they were losing
> >  and suffering themselves.
> Again, do two wrongs make a right.  Is firebombing civilians
> deterrence or simply revenge?  Is revenge a viable motive for
> war?  Should morality be an issue?

I really don't want to get into this discussion, because really there are
no "comfortable" answers.

But war does have several goals.  One, obvious one, is to simply defeat
the enemy.  This is almost always a military objective with military
targets.  Another goal is to remove the enemy's ability to make war.  This
is the role of strategic bombing and many other tactics.

But one that people don't like to talk about (because there are no warm
fuzzies attached to it) is to make the enemy seriously reconsider their
actions, if not now, in the future.

This doesn't, in my mind, justify or moralize the bombing of civilians or
any number of things one can come up with.  However, the mass destruction
facing the populace _is_ a very effective deterrent for the future.  Many
people today from Europe remember or are familiar with the ravages of war
and _never_ want to see it again.  Did that memory help prevent a subsequent
conflict?  Hundreds of PhD theses could be written on it and never give a
good answer.

In war, during war, simple revenge is also very motivating and seemingly
moral and justified _at the time_.  The U.S. involvement in WWII was more
an act of anger and revenge that almost anything else (though I don't think
the U.S. could have stayed out of WWII for long, but the vigor and
determination was sparked by Pearl Harbor).

Is attacking civilian targets justified?  I'm pretty sure I'm not alone by
being abhorred with the concept of even being asked such a question.  But
I also know I'm not alone when I can honestly say that given a certain
set of circumstances and a situation that my response might be doubtful or
at odds with my true beliefs.

> >I'm grateful my ancestors had the will and ability to do what was necessary
> >  for their/our/my survival.
>
> My ancestors, including my father did what was necessary.  I
> dont't dispute their sacrifice.  That's not what I'm talking
> about.  Do we have to morally answer for our prosecution of the
> war?  We know what the Germans and the Japanese did because the
> winners get to write the textbooks.  What military purpose is
> served by firebombing Dresden and Tokyo, killing hundreds of
> thousands of civilians?  Should war include civilians?  I don't
> have any answers, just a lot of unanswered questions.  And, the
> more I study and the more I read, the more questions I come up
> with.

War can't avoid civilians.  In centuries and millenia past, it could.  When
you have entire militaries consisting of 20,000 people and they clash in hand
to hand combat a hundred miles from the nearest human being, civilians can
easily be avoided.  Today, it's impossible.

But it's also that risk of civilian casualties that may end up making more
people reconsider the option of war -- unless that war seems to center
around the civilians like the "ethnic cleansing" (shudder!) currently in
progress.

Do we have to morally answer?  There comes a time when you have to put
certain things behind you.  Generalities are impossible to make as well.
Do I feel I have something to answer for?  Since my father spent 7 years
in Norway as an underground operative, I have little (actually no)
connections to the strategic airwar campaign except for my historical
interest in it and the preservation of all WWII experiences.

If I had to maintain a moral responsibility for the actions of my parents,
it would then be for transporting illegal radios and blowing raspberries
at SS officers (and cheering when a German plane crashed in the farm field
next door).

The justifications, reasons and values behind any strategy should be
fully investigated and researched before asking questions about moral
responsibility.  It's just like asking whether the A-bomb was morally
correct -- the use saved perhaps a million lives, but also inflicted
untold and unexpected suffering.  Is one worth the other?  Would your
own opinion change if you did not have all the facts in front of you?
(Facts you cannot obtain until after the fact?)

However, if a lesson is learned by all, then even huge moral mistakes
have a positive value...

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Nov 1993 01:04:48 -0400
From:    John Peterson <PETERSJL3522@SNYONEVA.BITNET>
Subject: GEN: Humor

>Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1993 04:01:00 CSD
>From: galvin@tamuts.tamu.edu
>Subject: Thought For The Day
>

I thought I'd pass this along to the list--no offense intented to any member,
past or present, of the US Army!!

John Peterson
PETERSJL3522@SNYONEVA.CC.ONEONTA.EDU

>
>          ***********************************************************
>          *    One of the serious problems in planning against      *
>          *    American doctrine that the Americans do not read     *
>          *    their manuals nor do they feel any obligations       *
>          *    to follow their doctrine.                            *
>          *                                                         *
>          *                    -From a Russian Document             *
>          *                                                         *
>          *    The reason that the America army does so well        *
>          *    in wartime is that war is chaos and the              *
>          *    American army practices chaos on a daily basis.      *
>          *                                                         *
>          *                   -A German General Officer             *
>          *                                                         *
>          *          Let's keep up the good work, troops!           *
>          ***********************************************************
>
>                                  -Plaque Posted in the Pentagon

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Nov 1993 10:24:55 +0200
From:    Chris Scogings <cscoging@UNPCS1.CS.UNP.AC.ZA>
Subject: RAF/USAAF statistics (again)

Due to popular(?) demand, I am reposting my statistics, plus a few more:

Extracts from The Designer Notes of the simulation game
"Luftwaffe" produced by the Avalon Hill Games Company:

The last sortie by the Luftwaffe was carried out by the Elbe Geschwader.
This unit was formed from inexperienced student pilots with one or two solo
flights each.  Fired up with political speeches and convinced that only they
could save Germany, 120 of them took off on the morning of 7 April 1945 to
intercept a USAAF bombing raid.  15 returned.  Although they rammed 5 B17s
such tactics could obviously not be continued...

USAAF         (European Theatre Only)   RAF
-----                                   ---
1,461,864     Tons of bombs dropped     1,235,609
  754,818     Bomber sorties flown        687,462
  991,750     Fighter sorties flown     1,695,049 (incl. Battle of Britain)
    9,949     Bombers lost                 11,965
    8,420     Fighters lost                10,045
    7,177     Max. bomber strength          6,956
    6,203     Max. fighter strength         7,728

Most USAAF bomber losses occurred in 1942/1943.
Most RAF bomber losses occurred in 1943/1944.

Greatest losses in a single mission:
------------------------------------
USAAF: Schweinfurt Aug 17 1943, 60 bombers lost, 100 damaged.
       Schweinfurt Oct 14 1943, 62 bombers lost,  53 damaged.
RAF:   Nuremberg   Mar 30 1944, 107 bombers lost, 59 damaged.

Accuracy
--------
USAAF: 31% of bombs were dropped within 1,000 feet of the target.
RAF:   40% of bombs were dropped within   425 feet of the target.

(It is important to note that a "target" for the USAAF was usually
 a building, eg: a factory.  The "target" for the RAF was a CITY!!!)

German Aircraft Production
--------------------------
           1939     1940      1941      1942      1943       1944
Bombers     737     2852      3373      4502      4789       1982
Fighters    605     2745      3744      5515     10898      26326

Luftwaffe "flak" batteries in Germany
-------------------------------------
           1942          1943           1944
Heavy AA    744          1234           1508
Light AA    438           693            623

USAAF planes in Europe 1942 - 1945
----------------------------------
        No. of sorties        Bomb Tonnage        Lost in Combat
B17     291 508               640 036             4688
B24     226 775               452 508             3626
B26     129 943               169 382              911
B25      63 177                84 980              380
P47     423 435               113 963             3077
P51     213 873                 5 668             2520
P38     129 849                20 139             1758
P40      67 059                11 014              553
P39      30 547                   121              107

Casaulties in Europe
--------------------
USAAF:      About 17 000 killed and 6442 wounded.
Luftwaffe:  138 596 killed and 156 132 missing, believed dead.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Scogings                      Voice: (27) 331 955645
Computer Science Dept                 Fax: (27) 331 955599
University of Natal
Pietermaritzburg                   E-Mail:cscoging@unpcs1.cs.unp.ac.za
----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Nov 1993 06:08:36 EST
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <hb9388@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN: Humor

John,

These thoughts were (and still are I'm sure) repeated in every tactics
class I had at Ft. Benning.  Seems that the US Army tries to count more
on how well our soldiers can think themselves out of a nasty situation
than relying on a rote (field manual) solution.  Same thing I tried
to teach my platoon leaders when I was a company commander.

No offense taken!

Bear


>>Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1993 04:01:00 CSD
>>From: galvin@tamuts.tamu.edu
>>Subject: Thought For The Day
>>
>
>I thought I'd pass this along to the list--no offense intented to any member,
>past or present, of the US Army!!
>
>John Peterson
>PETERSJL3522@SNYONEVA.CC.ONEONTA.EDU
>
>>
>>          ***********************************************************
>>          *    One of the serious problems in planning against      *
>>          *    American doctrine that the Americans do not read     *
>>          *    their manuals nor do they feel any obligations       *
>>          *    to follow their doctrine.                            *
>>          *                                                         *
>>          *                    -From a Russian Document             *
>>          *                                                         *
>>          *    The reason that the America army does so well        *
>>          *    in wartime is that war is chaos and the              *
>>          *    American army practices chaos on a daily basis.      *
>>          *                                                         *
>>          *                   -A German General Officer             *
>>          *                                                         *
>>          *          Let's keep up the good work, troops!           *
>>          ***********************************************************
>>
>>                                  -Plaque Posted in the Pentagon
>

Barrett F. Lowe                    RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, US Military Academy, West Point, NY 10996

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Nov 1993 07:07:05 -0500
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 17 NOV 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
WEDNESDAY, 17 NOVEMBER 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt

CENTRAL PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Seventh Air Force): 20+ B-24's from
Funafuti Atoll in the Ellice Islands and Canton Island in the Phoenix Islands
bomb Mille Atoll in the Caroline Islands, Maloelap Atoll in the Marshall
Islands, and Tarawa Atoll in the Gilbert Islands.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 8 P-40's strafe the airfield and
barracks at Kengtung, 4 others hit construction equipment at Dong Cuong
Airfield in French Indochina and 8 attack Pingkai and targets of opportunity
between Pingkai and Tahsai on the Salween River.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): HQ 50th Troop Carrier Wing arrives
at Cottesmore, England from the U.S.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): B-17's hit the airfield at
Eleusis, Greece, destroying several parked airplanes and scoring many hits
on hangars, other buildings, and runways; P-38's escort the B-17's as well
as Northwest African Tactical Air Force (NATAF) B-25's attacking the airfield
at Kalamaki, Greece.
  HQ 376th Bombardment Group (Heavy) transfers from Enfidaville, Tunisia to
San Pancrazio, Italy.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): B-25's bomb the airfield at
Kalamaki, Greece. In Italy, fighters hit trucks N of Ancona at Macerata.
  The 87th Fighter Squadron, 79th Fighter Group, transfers from Salsola to
Madna Airfield, Italy with P-40's.
  The 381st Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 310th Bombardment Group (Medium),
ceases operating from Oudna, Tunisia and returns to it's base at Menzel
Temime, Tunisia with B-25's.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, 30+ B-25's hit the airfield on Buka Island and surrounding areas
during the night of 16/17 Nov; 2 squadrons of B-24's follow with a daylight
strike on the same target; 8 other B-24's bomb Buka and Bonis on Bougainville
Island at various times during the night of 16/17 Nov; during the afternoon
3 B-25's hit Kieta on Bougainville.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): B-24's bomb
Soerabaja and Tjepoe, Java and Denpasar in the Sunda Islands during the night
of 17/18 Nov, and B-25's bomb a freighter off Tanimbar Island in the Moluccas
Islands. In New Guinea during the day, 58 B-24's are dispatched to support an
attack by the Australian 9 Division on Sattelberg, but because of bad weather
only 3 B-24's [along with 12 Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) aircraft] get
through to the target; P-47's strafe Japanese shipping between Saidor and
Finschhafen.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Nov 1993 09:00:24 EDT
From:    RICHARD KING <RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Addr: Kristallnacht

A few days ago there was discussion about Kristallnacht (the 55th
anniversary of this event was Nov. 9). In the local newspaper there
appeared the following letter, which I am submitting to WWII-L. I
have always been amazed at the massive amount of historical material
that lies buried, unindexed of course, in local newspapers. I called
the author of this letter and she told me how her father was killed
in 1945 (had fought in WWI, too) as the American army advanced
following the Bulge. He was part of troops left behind to defend
cities after the Bulge failed. She recently returned to his grave
and the people of the city he died defending keep the graves
decorated and well cared for.
In Letters to the Editor, Vincennes (IN) Sun-Commercial, Nov. 9,
1993.
A Personal story of Kristallnacht
A lot was told and retold on television and in newspapers about the
50th anniversary of Kristallnacht -- a night when Jewish businesses,
schools and synagogues were broken into, glass fronts smashed,
some set on fire by rowdies of the National Socialist Workers
Party. I have no idea where the command for this destruction
came from, but it certainly was well-synchronized for it happened in
every town and city in Germany.
     Listening to a commentary on TV brought back memories. To think
that I lived just around the corner from a large giftshop with three
gigantic plateglass windows which had been smashed and did not hear
anything. I don't remember if my parents or my sisters were awakened.
I do recall that my mothers, sisters and I saw what had happened
the next morning. People everywhere were staring in disbelief.
     My mom and we three girls carefully picked up powder compacts
out of the shards of broken glass and placed them inside the window.
It was a very sad sight to behold. We did not venture far that morning
for it was a very disturbing time and no one knew what or how all this
happened. There was no looting.
     Since I lived in the very hub of the city there was always a lot
going on and it was a very exciting time for an inquisitive youngster
like myself. We used to roller skate and play hopscotch on the side-
walks of the immediate neighborhood and we had quite a few young
friends in a two or three block area. Among them was a little girl
named Rosi whom we knew to be Jewish. It did not mean anything to us.
After all, we were all about 10 to 12 years old except that Rosi
went to the Jewish school next to the synagogue and we all went to Catholic
school. There were several law offices, jewelers and realty agencies in my
neighborhood which were owned by Jews. One could tell by their name.
     Going back to Kristallnacht, I remember what a good friend of
my father told us sometime later. Mr. Willadt was a highly educated
and respected man. His father was a jeweller in Paris and he studied
painting there. He was a fine artist although he did not practice his craft
anymore. It was most interesting to listen to him because it seems
that he had seen and read about everything. I remember the two Ming vases
in his foyer. They were so big and tall one could almost hide in
there if one was my size then.
     One room in his apartment was covered from floor to ceiling with
books except for the doors and windows. I often was allowed to browse
and borrow books. He had old books bound in leather and wood, and
scrolls of parchment from biblical times. Mr. Willadt was a scholar
who spoke several languages. Not politically interested, he was
non-the-less involved in Kristallnacht after the fact.
     He described to us how he went to the synagogue and how he
had seen some party members in a mock procession wearing black hats with
lighted candles on them. He also showed me several books of the Talmud
he had rescued before the temple was burned down. They were very
large and ornate and were placed on the shelf with the many Bibles.
     Things certainly went from bad to worse from then on. People
going in or coming out of Jewish-owned department stores were
photographed. These pictures were then exhibited in showcases
affixed to the corners of those stores for all passerby to see.
Many persons were therefore afraid to shop there anymore.
     A lot of Jewish families moved away during those terrible
days. We did not know where to since we were not close with any of them.
Then one day Rosi was gone, although her uncle was still visible at
his desk by the window on the first floor. He never smiled down at
us but he never chased us away as some other, mostly elderly residents
did when our skates made too much racket on the sidewalk.
     Three blocks away from my house on Gymnasuimstrasse was the
headquarters of the criminal police building. It had a forbidding
stone fence around it with a huge gatelike door. We kids knew every
knothole and crack in that old door. When we saw the dark green van
which was used to bring or transfer prisoners we ran as fast as our legs
would carry us and spied through these crevices to see who was being
unloaded. It was really exciting! Fortunately we did not know what
was in store for those poor devils.
     One day there appeared big yellow stars on men's and women's
clothing about the breast pocket area. We found out that these
were to signify Jews. No one knew why this should be necessary. It
was embarrassing to them and many held a newspaper or handbag
strategically to hide this telltale sign. Mr. Willadt said of it:
"There is a pour le merit and this is the pour le semit."
It was not funny. The stars were also visible when our air raid
shelters were being built. The labor force was comprised of French
was prisoners and men wearing yellow stars. Neither of them
volunteered I dare way!
     Ond day I happened around the corner and saw a large
gathering of people near the criminal police headquarter. I
hurried up there just in time to see a truck laden with men
driving up the old wooden gate. There, closest to the truckgate
was Rosi's uncle! His dark eyes looking out at us. They were
silently asking WHY?
     I still see those eyes, and even today I still could not
answer him.
--Sonya Myers, Vincennes, IN
******************************************************************
Richard L. King, Reference Librarian, Vincennes (IN) Univ.
RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Nov 1993 09:19:42 -0500
From:    "Sidney W. Kitchel" <kitchel@OCTOPUS.DPSI.COM>
Subject: Re: Reply to James Irwin

James E Irwin writes:
|->
|-> In your message you write:
|-> >Yes, I'd say morality was pretty well out the window in WWII, and the Axis
|-> >  were responsible for that.  Rape of Nanking, Bombing of Rotterdam,
|-> > Holocaust, etc., etc.
|-> >
|-> But you're begging the question!!  Just because the Germans did
|-> it first, does that mean that morality doesn't enter into it.
|-> If so, the German defense of following orders is justifiable.
|->
|-> >Only deterrence prevailed, and that only because of demonstrated strength
|-> >  and ruthlessness by the Allies -- finally.  The Axis only became
|-> >  self-pitying and concerned with the morality of war once they were losing
|-> >  and suffering themselves.
|-> Again, do two wrongs make a right.  Is firebombing civilians
|-> deterrence or simply revenge?  Is revenge a viable motive for

        Revenge seemed to satisfy many on both sides.

|-> war?  Should morality be an issue?

        Probably.

|-> >
|-> >I'm grateful my ancestors had the will and ability to do what was necessary
|-> >  for their/our/my survival.
|-> >
|-> >Lou Coatney, WIU
|-> >
|->
|-> My ancestors, including my father did what was necessary.  I
|-> dont't dispute their sacrifice.  That's not what I'm talking
|-> about.  Do we have to morally answer for our prosecution of the
|-> war?  We know what the Germans and the Japanese did because the
|-> winners get to write the textbooks.  What military purpose is

        Well, the Japanese are writing their own textbooks. So were
the Soviets. So were we. All three sets of textbooks contain errors
and misjudgments about presentation and focus. The most glaring
problems are with the Japanese approach to ignore most issues. There
has been an international movement for over ten years to correct some
of these problems. Some folks from the Social Studies Development
Center here at IU have been on international committees that attempt
to monitor social studies materials around the world and at least
criticize glaring errors. I'd say unfortunately you are wrong about
the winners writing all the textbooks.

|-> served by firebombing Dresden and Tokyo, killing hundreds of
|-> thousands of civilians?  Should war include civilians?  I don't

        I'm afraid as a historian I'm pretty ignorant of the examples
of wars that did not affect civilians. Please let us have some
examples of war that did not affect "civilians".

                                                        --Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel           kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Nov 1993 10:07:00 EST
From:    Charles Reace <creace@ISD.CSC.COM>
Subject: Re: Addr: David Irving

> Is he really so bad that he should be expelled from Germany. I
> can't imagine that happening in the U.S., no matter what his
> political views.

I *believe* the US could expell a non-citizen for subversive writings
and/or speeches.  So, is Irving a German citizen?  If not, then I think
Germany is no different than the US in this regard.  If he is a citizen,
then I'm surprised.  Sending an undesirable (to the government) foreigner
back to his home country is one thing, but inflicting an unwanted
citizen upon whatever country will take him is not very good for
international relations!

Most US laws are designed to protect US citizens, not foreigners (rightly
or wrongly).  I have vague recollection of hearing about subversive
foreigners being extradited from this country, though no specific names
come to mind.  Any of you history majors/professors know?

Another 2 cents worth . . .

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <creace@isd.csc.com>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Nov 1993 10:20:15 EST
From:    Charles Reace <creace@ISD.CSC.COM>
Subject: Re: Reply to James Irwin

Re: should war include civilians?

Well, it always has, we're just better these days at killing them from
a distance.  But war has always included the rape/pillage of conquered
towns, burning of farmers' fields, etc.  And sending conscripted soldiers
to war is involving civilians (civilians forced to become soldiers or
sailors).

Is it right?  No more than war is "right".  Does it insult my sensibilities?
Sure.  But, it may be one of the reasons we've gone almost 50 years now
without another world war.  I think most political leaders in the developed
countries would not risk total war now, regardless of potential geo-
political gain; mainly because of the potential of disastrous civilian
losses.  Is this looking for a silver lining?  Probably.

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <creace@isd.csc.com>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Nov 1993 11:34:48 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <kc5318@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: RAF/USAAF statistics (again)

Chris,
     Some of those statistics are suspect.  For instance, the Eighth Air Force
alone suffered 46,000 casualties, far more than your source lists for the whole
USAAF.
                                        LTC Con Crane
                                        USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Nov 1993 12:12:33 -0400
From:    Cagan Gurer <CCGURER@OWUCOMCN.BITNET>
Subject: Kristallnacht

Can someone please forward me the article on Kristallnacht that was originally
sent by Richard King. I accidentally erased it and I would really appreciate it
if someone can send it to me.
Cagan
CCGURER@CC.OWU.EDU

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Nov 1993 10:58:36 EST
From:    Kurt Luginbyhl <MNHAD007@SIVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Addr: David Irving

Charles Rease, Said "...but inflicting an unwanted citizen upon whatever
country that will take him is not very good for international relations!"
Doesn't Cuba do this hasn't Haiti done this?  I don't think those people are
too worried about wat the rest of the world thinks.  You would think all
countries would want to be as attractive as they could be to others.  But as
we have seen in the U.S. this has some really ugly side effects.  Just my $ .02
not worth a flame war.

H. A. Kurt Luginbyhl
Scientific Computer Specialist
National Museum of Natural History
Washington D.C. 20560

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Nov 1993 12:19:24 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Reply to James Irwin

Date sent:      Wed, 17 Nov 1993 09:19:42 -0500
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
From:           "Sidney W. Kitchel" <kitchel@OCTOPUS.DPSI.COM>
Subject:        Re: Reply to James Irwin
Originally to:  WWII-L@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>




       Well, the Japanese are writing their own textbooks. So were
the Soviets. So were we. All three sets of textbooks contain errors
and misjudgments about presentation and focus. The most glaring
problems are with the Japanese approach to ignore most issues. There
has been an international movement for over ten years to correct some
of these problems. Some folks from the Social Studies Development
Center here at IU have been on international committees that attempt
to monitor social studies materials around the world and at least
criticize glaring errors. I'd say unfortunately you are wrong about
the winners writing all the textbooks.

|-> served by firebombing Dresden and Tokyo, killing hundreds of
|-> thousands of civilians?  Should war include civilians?  I don't

        I'm afraid as a historian I'm pretty ignorant of the examples
of wars that did not affect civilians. Please let us have some
examples of war that did not affect "civilians".


Sid,

You know as well as I, and I know that your question is rhetorical,
but there ain't any! War itself is immoral, and war is, has been, and
will always be a fact of life. I agree with your statements
completely, but war is the seedier side of man, and will always be
with us, no matter what else happens. Someone is going to want
something someone else has, and that will not change, and this will
always end in war. As I see it, the only thing man can do is accept
it and do the best he can under the circumstances.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Nov 1993 19:39:09 +0100
From:    Richard Cummings <CUMMINGSR@ADMINA.RFERL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Addr: David Irving

Someone can correct me on this, but I think that both Canada and
the United States either deported Irving, or allowed him to leave
voluntarily in the past.  Does anyone know for sure?  Richard in
Munich.

--==oo00oo==--
cummingsr@rferl.org
RFE/RL Inc
Munich,Germany

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Nov 1993 14:46:00 CST
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Full Circle

Wilber,

     I thought that title was Johnston's treatise on aerial warfare?

Lou Coatney WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Nov 1993 14:48:36 CST
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: "Committees"

Sid,

     The World War II Studies Association/American Committee on the
History of the Second World War was involved in some of the controversy
about the Japanese and German textbooks' coverage of Nanking, the
Holocaust, etc.

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Nov 1993 22:21:45 EST
From:    Richard Kaplan <kaplanr@CLP2.CLPGH.ORG>
Subject: expelling non-citizens (was D. Irving)

We aren't prone to expelling people once they're in; look at Sheik Rahman,
but we can be hell on allowing "undesireables" into the country.  There were
several Canadian and Mexican writers who were perpetually persona-non-grata
in the US until the early 90s.  I'm not talking about subversives advocating
the violent overthrow of the republic, just people with definite criticism
of our social and political structure.  We kept Arafat out for 18 years, and
denied Meir Kahane a visa several times.  During the Red scares of the
20s and 50s, we also deported more people than normal.  On the whole though,
our entry policies are very liberal, and even with the FBI, we don't have a
national police force.

                                        Richard Kaplan
                                        Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 18 Nov 1993 13:31:10 AEST
From:    ccwilber@UQVAX.CC.UQ.OZ.AU
Subject: Re: Full Circle

Lou Coatney WIU writes -

>FULL CIRCLE - I thought that title was Johnston's treatise on aerial warfare?

Could have been - the last time I saw the book was about 20 years ago. I was
hoping for confirmation or more information....

Wilber.

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Wilber WILLIAMS                            w.williams@cc.uq.edu.au      |
|Prentice Centre                            Telephone : +61 7 365 4232   |
|The University of Queensland               Facsimile : +61 7 365 4477   |
|Brisbane Qld 4072  AUSTRALIA                                            |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 16 Nov 1993 to 17 Nov 1993
*************************************************

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Status: O

There are 15 messages totalling 780 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Nazi program (2)
  2. USAAF 18 NOV 43
  3. Kristallnacht (2)
  4. Addr: David Irving
  5. RAF/USAAF statistics (2)
  6. Full Circle (3)
  7. the best German night fighter pilot
  8. Humor: A study guide to History
  9. Reply to James Irwin
 10. Hitler Stationary

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 18 Nov 1993 00:21:56 -0400
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: Nazi program

Quoted from the book "World War II Through German Eyes".  Any
typos are mine.  Read on, there's something in it for everyone :-)



Basic Programme of the National Socialist Workers' Party
Munich, 24 February 1920

The programme of the German Workers' Party is a fixed one.  The
leaders reject the idea of setting new goals once the initial aims
laid down in this programme have been acheived, simply in order to
prolong the life of the Party by artificially creating unrest among
the masses.

1.  On the basis of a people's right to self-determination, we demand
the uniting of the Germans within a Greater Germany.

2.  We demand equal status for Germany, vis-a-vis other nations, and
the annulling of the Peace Treaties drawn up in Versailles and
St. Germain.

3.  We demand land and properties (colonies) to provide food for our
nation and settlement areas for our surplus population.

4.  Only a German can have the right of citizenship.  A Volksgenosse
can only be a person who has German parents, irrespective of religion.
THEREFORE NO JEW CAN BE CONSIDERED TO BE A VOLKSGENOSSE.

5.  Those people who have no citizenship rights can only be considered
as guests in Germany and must be subject to laws concerning foreigners.

6.  Only citizens should have the right to decide leadership and the
laws of state.  Therefore, we demand that only those with citizenship
rights should be eligible to serve in a public office, whether this be
at national, Lander or local level.  We oppose the corrupt parliamentary
in which people are employed only on the basis of the political party
to which they belong and not according to their character or ability.

7.  We demand that the first priority of the state should be to ensure
that its citizens have work and decent living conditions.  Where it is
not possibel to feed all of the citizens of the state, foreign nationals
(who have no citizenship rights) should be repatriated.

8.  Further immigration of non-Germans must be halted.  We demand that
all Germans who have entered the Reich since 2 August 1914, be forced
to leave the country immediately.

9.  All citizens must have the same rights and obligations.

10.  The first duty of all Volksgenossen must be to work, either
manually or with the mind.  The actions of an individual must not be
against the general good but must be in accord with it.

THEREFORE WE DEMAND

11.  The abolition of unearned income.

THE DESTRUCTION OF THE DOMINANCE OF INVESTED CAPITAL

12.  because wars demand of the people great physical and personal
sacrifice, any personal gain through war must be considered as a
crime against the nation.  WE DEMAND, THEREFORE, THE CONFISCATION OF
ALL WAR PROFITS.

13.  We demand the nationalization of all publicly owned companies
(Trusts).

14.  We demand profit sharing by all large companies.

15.  We demand that generous improvements be made in old-age pensions.

16.  We demand the setting up and maintenance of a healthy middle class.
The large department stores should be placed immediately under the
control of local authorities and should be leased out to small businesses
at low rents.  Small businesses must have the keenest regard in the
matter of deliveries to the state, the Lander, or the local authorities.

17.  We demand property reform in line with our national requirements
and legislation permitting compulsory purchase of property if this is
in the national interest.  We demand the abolition of ground rents and
the banning of property speculation.

18.  We demand a ruthless battle against those whose actions damage the
national interest.  Common criminals, profiteers, racketeers, etc.,
should suffer capital punishment without distinction of race or religion.

19.  We demand the replacement of Roman law, which serves the interests
of a material world order, by German Common law.

20.  There must be a thorough overhaul of the state education system
in order that every capable and diligent German receives a good
education, enabling them to obtain leading postions of employment.  The
curricula of all educational establishments must adapt to practical
requirements.  We must seek to instill national ideas from the earliest
school age (lessons in citizenship).  We demand that talented children
of poor parents should receive state support irreespective of class
or employment.

21.  The state must ensure the general good health of its citizens by
providing for mothers and children, by banning child labour, by
ensuring physical fitness through legal ogligation to participate in
sport or gymnastics and by giving support to associations involved
in those fields.

22.  We demand the abolition of the mercenary army and its replacement
by a national army of the people.

23.  We demand legal action against public political slander or libel
in the Press.  In order to establish a German Press we demand that

(a)  Newspaper editors and employees whose work appears in German
must be Volsgenossen.

(b)  Non-German newpapers must be authorized by the state before they
can appear in Germany.  They must not be in the German language.

(c)  Foreign finance to subsidize German newspapers and foreign influence
must be forbidden by law.  Contravention of the above should lead to
the closing of the newspaper in question and together with the
immediate expulsion from the Reich of those non-Germans involved.

(d)  Newspapers which are deemed to be against the common good should
be banned.  We demand legal action against any art or literature which
exerts a harmful influence on public life and demand the closing of
all institutions which contravene the above named standards.

24.  We demand religious freedom throughout the Reich so long as it
does not endanger the position of the state or adversely affect the
moral standards of the German race.  As such the Party represents a
positively Christian postion without binding itself to one
particular faith.  The Party opposes the materialistic, Jewish spirit
within and beyond us and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our
people can only be achieved on the basis of:

COMMON GOOD BEFORE PERSONAL GAIN

25.  In order to achieve this we demand the setting up of a strong,
central adminisration for the Reich.

We demand unlimited authority for a central, national parliament and
its organizations.  We demand the establishment of professional and
industrial bodies to assist in implementing national laws throughout
the Lander.

The Party leaders commit themselves fully to acheiving the aims set
out above, even at the cost of their own lives, if need be.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 18 Nov 1993 07:07:55 -0500
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 18 NOV 43

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
THURSDAY, 18 NOVEMBER 1943
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss

CENTRAL PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Seventh Air Force): 19 B-24's from
Nanumea Island in the Ellice Islands bomb Mille Atoll in the Caroline Islands;
2 others hit Tarawa Atoll in the Gilbert Islands.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 12 P-40's strafe troops and horses
and sink a troop barge at Shihmen; 4 others, in support of Chinese forces,
strafe the Tahsai ferry.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): VIII Bomber Command Mission 132.
82 of 102 B-24's hit the Oslo/Kjeller Airfield in Norway; they claim 10-7-5
Luftwaffe aircraft; 9 B-24's are lost, 3 are damaged beyond repair and 10
damaged; casualties are 2 KIA, 9 WIA and 91 MIA.
  VIII Bomber Command Mission 133: 5 B-17's drop 980,000 leaflets over
Paris, Orleans, Chartres, Rennes and Le Mans, France between 2015 and 2041
hours; no losses or casualties.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Aircraft of the IX Troop Carrier
Command carry paratroops of the US 1O1st Airborne Division in a rehearsal of
cross-channel operations.  This is the first of an extended series of training
exercises to be conducted prior to the Normandy invasion.
  HQ 50th Troop Carrier Wing transfers from Cottesmore to Bottesford, England.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): B-17's, with P-38 escort, pound
the airfield at Eleusis, Greece. P-38's also escort a Northwest African
Tactical Air Force (NATAF) attack on the same target and escort a supply
dropping mission to Yugoslavia.
  HQ 98th Bombardment Group (Heavy) and it's 343d, 344th, 345th and 415th
Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy) transfer from Hergla, Tunisia to Brindisi,
Italy with B-24's.
  The 514th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 376th Bombardment Group (Heavy),
transfers from Enfidaville, Tunisia to San Pancrazio, Italy with B-24's.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): Medium and light bombers of the XII
Air Support Command and Royal Air Force (RAF) attack the airfield at Larissa,
Greece, a billeting area at Rivisondoli, Italy and road, railway and town
area W of San Vito Chietino and at Lanciano, Italy. In Yugoslavia, fighter-
bombers hit a ship in the Krka River, trains at Knin marshalling yard and
between Knin and Kosovo, the landing ground at Sinj, harbor and vessels at
Sibenik, and defended points and gun positions along the battleline in Italy.
  HQ 33d Fighter Group transfers from Paestum to Santa Maria, Italy.
  The 23d Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, 5th Photographic
Reconnaissance Group, based at La Marsa, Tunisia with F-5's, begins operating
from Foggia, Italy.
  The 345th Fighter Squadron, 350th Fighter Group, transfers from Rerhaia,
Algeria to Sardinia with P-39's.
  The 347th Fighter Squadron, 350th Fighter Group, transfers from Djidjelli
to Rerhaia, Algeria with P-39's.
  The 381st Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 310th Bombardment Group (Medium),
transfers from Menzel Temime, Tunisia to Philippeville, Algeria with B-25's.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, 4 squadrons of B-24's pound the airfields on Buka Island and at
Kara, Bougainville Island; 3 B-25's strafe Greenwich Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea,
30+ B-25's and B-26's hit enemy positions in the Sattelberg area; B-24's
carry out a light raid on Fak Fak; and P-40's bomb Iworep.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 18 Nov 1993 07:05:56 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kristallnacht

Date sent:      Wed, 17 Nov 1993 12:12:33 -0400
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
From:           Cagan Gurer <CCGURER%OWUCOMCN.BITNET@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
Subject:        Kristallnacht
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

Can someone please forward me the article on Kristallnacht that was originally
sent by Richard King. I accidentally erased it and I would really appreciate it
if someone can send it to me.
Cagan
CCGURER@CC.OWU.EDU


Cagan,

I have tried to forward your request to you. Please let me know if
you received it or not. If not, I will try again. I always save
postings such as these for future reference.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 18 Nov 1993 07:08:23 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Addr: David Irving

Date sent:      Wed, 17 Nov 1993 19:39:09 +0100
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
From:           Richard Cummings <CUMMINGSR@ADMINA.RFERL.ORG>
Organization:   Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty Inc.
Subject:        Re: Addr: David Irving
Originally to:  WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>


Richard,

I am not aware that David Irving was ever deported from the US or
Canada. Possibly from Canada, but not from the US, unless he had
violated the laws regarding his entry permit. If you or anyone else
knows more about this, please pass it on.

Terry


 Someone can correct me on this, but I think that both Canada
and the United States either deported Irving, or allowed him to leave
voluntarily in the past.  Does anyone know for sure?  Richard in
Munich.

--==oo00oo==--
cummingsr@rferl.org
RFE/RL Inc
Munich,Germany


Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 18 Nov 1993 10:24:51 -0400
From:    Cagan Gurer <CCGURER@OWUCOMCN.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Kristallnacht

Yes Terry I have received it, and thanks to all the others who forwarded it
to me.
Cagan

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 18 Nov 1993 17:29:50 +0200
From:    Chris Scogings <cscoging@UNPCS1.CS.UNP.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: RAF/USAAF statistics

>Some of those statistics are suspect.  For instance, the Eighth Air Force
>alone suffered 46,000 casualties, far more than your source lists for the
>whole USAAF.

I thought they were a bit odd, esp. the suspicious round number of 17 000
USAAF casualties.  What are the real figures for the USAAF and the RAF?
Are 138 596 dead and 156 132 missing, correct for the Luftwaffe?

Chris
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Scogings                      Voice: (27) 331 955645
Computer Science Dept                 Fax: (27) 331 955599
University of Natal
Pietermaritzburg                   E-Mail:cscoging@unpcs1.cs.unp.ac.za
----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 18 Nov 1993 10:49:06 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Full Circle

Date sent:      Thu, 18 Nov 1993 13:31:10 AEST
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
From:           ccwilber@UQVAX.CC.UQ.OZ.AU
Subject:        Re: Full Circle
Originally to:  WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

Lou Coatney WIU writes -

>FULL CIRCLE - I thought that title was Johnston's treatise on aerial warfare?

Could have been - the last time I saw the book was about 20 years ago. I was
hoping for confirmation or more information....

Wilber.


Lou, Wilber and others,

Yes. Air Vice-Marshal J.E. "Johnny" Johnson published a book in the
early 1960's by the title you mention above "Full Circle". I have the
Ballantine paperback edition of it, and read it when it came out. It
deals with the history of aerial combat from WWI through Korea.

Hope this helps.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 18 Nov 1993 10:51:24 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: the best German night fighter pilot

Date sent:      Wed, 17 Nov 1993 13:18:44 AEST
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
From:           ccwilber@UQVAX.CC.UQ.OZ.AU
Subject:        Re: the best German night fighter pilot
Originally to:  WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

Wilber,

I will have to check your reference to this book dealing with
the night fighers. There have been several published both here and in
England, and I will have to get back to you on this.

More later.

Terry


----------------------------------------------------------------------


I seem to remember reading a book titled "Full Circle", by British night
fighter ace Alan Cunningham (I think!) which gave some good accounts of
being a night fighter pilot, and what they had to contend with.


Wilber.

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Wilber WILLIAMS                            w.williams@cc.uq.edu.au      |
|Prentice Centre                            Telephone : +61 7 365 4232   |
|The University of Queensland               Facsimile : +61 7 365 4477   |
|Brisbane Qld 4072  AUSTRALIA                                            |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+


Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 18 Nov 1993 10:54:09 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Nazi program

Dennis,

This seems to have been taken from Hitler's "Mein Kampf". Thanks for
the post, and it is very interesting.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 18 Nov 1993 12:52:07 EST
From:    Charles Reace <creace@ISD.CSC.COM>
Subject: Re: Full Circle

I think I know the book you're looking for regarding a British night
fighter pilot.  I've got it at home, so I'll try to remember to find
it tonight and get the title/author/etc. for you tomorrow.

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <creace@isd.csc.com>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 18 Nov 1993 12:51:14 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <kc5318@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: RAF/USAAF statistics

>>Some of those statistics are suspect.  For instance, the Eighth Air Force
>>alone suffered 46,000 casualties, far more than your source lists for the
>>whole USAAF.
>
>I thought they were a bit odd, esp. the suspicious round number of 17 000
>USAAF casualties.  What are the real figures for the USAAF and the RAF?
>Are 138 596 dead and 156 132 missing, correct for the Luftwaffe?
>
>Chris
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd have to do some more research for exact figures, but the best I have list
64,000 dead for United States Strategic Air Forces in Europe and 57,000 dead
for the RAF (44,000 from bomber crews and 41,000 with no known graves).  For
Luftwaffe airmen, there were 44,000 dead, 28,000 wounded, and 28,000 prisoners
or missing.    The figures you have seem way off.
                                             Con Crane

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Nov 1993 21:32:27 CST
From:    "Irvine, Cindy Marie" <M535%NEMOMUS.BITNET@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Humor: A study guide to History

I received this and thought it would forward this to all of
you---unfortunately it ends before WWII--I am looking to see if there is
a second part to this.  Get out your textbooks to make some pen and ink
corrections!  Tim

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************
------------------------------- Original Message -------------------------------
  The World According to Student Bloopers

        Richard Lederer
       St. Paul's School

    One of the fringe benefits of being an English or History teacher is
receiving the occasional jewel of a student blooper in an essay.  I have pasted
together the following "history" of the world from certifiably genuine student
bloopers collected by teachers throughout the United States, from eight grade
through college level.  Read carefully, and you will learn a lot.

    The inhabitants of Egypt were called mummies.  They lived in the Sarah
Dessert and traveled by Camelot.  The climate of the Sarah is such that the
inhabitants have to live elsewhere, so certain areas of the dessert are cul-
tivated by irritation.  The Egyptians built the Pyramids in the shape of a huge
triangular cube.  The Pramids are a range of mountains between France and
Spain.

    The Bible is full of interesting caricatures.  In the first book of the
Bible, Guinesses, Adam and Eve were created from an apple tree.  One of their
children, Cain, asked "Am I my brother's son?"  God asked Abraham to sacrifice
Issac on Mount Montezuma.  Jacob, son of Issac, stole his brother's birthmark.
Jacob was a partiarch who brought up his twelve sons to be partiarchs, but they
did not take to it.  One of Jacob's sons, Joseph, gave refuse to the Israelites.

    Pharaoh forced the Hebrew slaves to make bread without straw.  Moses led
them to the Red Sea, where they made unleavened bread, which is bread made
without any ingredients.  Afterwards, Moses went up on Mount Cyanide to get the
ten commandments.  David was a Hebrew king skilled at playing the liar.  He
fougth with the Philatelists, a race of people who lived in Biblical times.
Solomon, one of David's sons, had 500 wives and 500 porcupines.

    Without the Greeks, we wouldn't have history.  The Greeks invented three
kinds of columns - Corinthian, Doric and Ironic.  They also had myths.  A myth
is a female moth.  One myth says that the mother of Achilles dipped him in the
River Stynx until he became intolerable.  Achilles appears in "The Illiad", by
Homer.  Homer also wrote the "Oddity", in which Penelope was the last hardship
that Ulysses endured on his journey.  Actually, Homer was not written by Homer
but by another man of that name.

    Socrates was a famous Greek teacher who went around giving people advice.
They killed him.  Socrates died from an overdose of wedlock.

    In the Olympic Games, Greeks ran races, jumped, hurled the biscuits, and
threw the java.  The reward to the victor was a coral wreath.  The government
of Athen was democratic because the people took the law into their own hands.
There were no wars in Greece, as the mountains were so high that they couldn't
climb over to see what their neighbors were doing.  When they fought the
Parisians,  the Greeks were outnumbered because the Persians had more men.

    Eventually, the Ramons conquered the Geeks.  History call people Romans
because they never stayed in one place for very long.  At Roman banquets, the
guests wore garlic in their hair.  Julius Caesar extinguished himself on the
battlefields of Gaul.  The Ides of March killed him because they thought he
was going to be made king.  Nero was a cruel tyrany who would torture his poor
subjects by playing the fiddle to them.

    Then came the Middle Ages.  King Alfred conquered the Dames, King Arthur
lived in the Age of Shivery, King Harlod mustarded his troops before the
Battle of Hastings, Joan of Arc was cannonized by George Bernard Shaw, and the
victims of the Black Death grew boobs on their necks.  Finally, the Magna Carta
provided that no free man should be hanged twice for the same offense.

    In midevil times most of the people were alliterate.  The greatest writer
of the time was Chaucer, who wrote many poems and verse and also wrote liter-
ature.  Another tale tells of William Tell, who shot an arrow through an apple
while standing on his son's head.

    The Renaissance was an age in which more individuals felt the value of
their human being.  Martin Luther was nailed to the church door at Wittenberg
for selling papal indulgences.  He died a horrible death, being excommunicated
by a bull.  It was the painter Donatello's interest in the female nude that
made him the father of the Renaissance.  It was an age of great inventions and
discoveries.  Gutenberg invented the Bible.  Sir Walter Raleigh is a historical
figure because he invented cigarettes.  Another important invention was the
circulation of blood.  Sir Francis Drake circumcised the world with a 100-foot
clipper.

    The government of England was a limited mockery.  Henry VIII found walking
difficult because he had an abbess on his knee.  Queen Elizabeth was the "Vir-
gin Queen."  As a queen she was a success.  When Elizabeth exposed herself be-
fore her troops, they all shouted "hurrah."  Then her navy went out and
defeated the Spanish Armadillo.

    The greatest writer of the Renaissance was William Shakespear.  Shakespear
never made much money and is famous only because of his plays.  He lived in
Windsor with his merry wives, writing tragedies, comedies and errors.  In one
of Shakespear's famous plays, Hamlet rations out his situation by relieving
himself in a long soliloquy.  In another, Lady Macbeth tries to convince Mac-
beth to kill the King by attacking his manhood.  Romeo and Juliet are an
example of a heroic couplet.  Writing at the same time as Shakespear was Miquel
Cervantes.  He wrote "Donkey Hote".  The next great author was John Milton.
Milton wrote "Paradise Lost."  Then his wife dies and he wrote "Paradise
Regained."

    During the Renaissance America began.  Christopher Columbus was a great
navigator who discovered America while cursing about the Atlantic.  His ships
were called the Nina, the Pinta, and the Santa Fe.  Later the Pilgrims
crossed the Ocean, and the was called the Pilgrim's Progress.  When they
landed at Plymouth Rock, they were greeted by Indians, who came down the hill
rolling their was hoops before them.  The Indian squabs carried porposies on
their back.  Many of the Indian heroes were killed, along with their
cabooses, which proved very fatal to them.  The winter of 1620 was a hard one
for the settlers.  Many people died and many babies were born.  Captain John
Smith was responsible for all this.

    One of the causes of the Revolutionary Wars was the English put tacks in
their tea.  Also, the colonists would send their pacels through the post with-
out stamps.  During the War, Red Coats and Paul Revere was throwing balls over
stone walls.  The dogs were barking and the peacocks crowing.  Finally, the
colonists won the War and no longer had to pay for taxis.

    Delegates from the original thirteen states formed the Contented Congress.
Thomas Jefferson, a Virgin, and Benjamin Franklin were two singers of the
Declaration of Independence.  Franklin had gone to Boston carrying all his
clothes in his pocket and a loaf of bread under each arm.  He invented elec-
tricity by rubbing cats backwards and declared "a horse divided against itself
cannot stand." Franklin died in 1790 and is still dead.

    George Washington married Matha Curtis and in due time became the Father
of Our Country.  Them the Constitution of the United States was adopted to
secure domestic hostility.  Under the Constitution the people enjoyed the
right to keep bare arms.

    Abraham Lincoln became America's greatest Precedent.  Lincoln's mother
died in infancy, and he was born in a log cabin which he built with his own
hands.  When Lincoln was President, he wore only a tall silk hat.  He said,
"In onion there is strength."  Abraham Lincoln write the Gettysburg address
while traveling from Washington to Gettysburg on the back of an envelope.  He
also signed the Emasculation Proclamation, and the Fourteenth Amendment gave
the ex-Negroes citizenship.  But the Clue Clux Clan would torcher and lynch
the ex-Negroes and other innocent victims.  On the night of April 14, 1865,
Lincoln went to the theater and got shot in his seat by one of the actors in
a moving picture show.  The believed assinator was John Wilkes Booth, a sup-
posedl insane actor.  This ruined Booth's career.

    Meanwhile in Europe, the enlightenment was a reasonable time.  Voltare
invented electricity and also wrote a book called "Candy".  Gravity was
invented by Issac Walton.  It is chiefly noticeable in the Autumn, when the
apples are flaling off the trees.

    Bach was the most famous composer in the world, and so was Handel.  Handel
was half German, half Italian and half English.  He was very large.  Bach died
from 1750 to the present.  Beethoven wrote music even though he was deaf.  He
was so deaf he wrote loud music.  He took long walks in the forest even when
everyone was calling for him.  Beethoven expired in 1827 and later died for
this.

    France was in a very serious state.  The French Revolution was accomplished
before it happened.  The Marseillaise was the theme song of the French Revolu-
tion, and it catapulted into Napoleon.  During the Napoleonic Wars, the crowned
heads of Europe were trembling in their shoes.  Then the Spanish gorrilas came
down from the hills and nipped at Napoleon's flanks.  Napoleon became ill with
bladder problems and was very tense and unrestrained.  He wanted an heir to
inheret his power, but since Josephine was a baroness, she couldn't bear him
any children.

    The sun never set on the British Empire because the British Empire is in
the East and the sun sets in the West.  Queen Victoria was the longest queen.
She sat on a thorn for 63 years.  He reclining years and finally the end of
her life were exemplatory of a great personality.  Her death was the final
event which ended her reign.

    The nineteenth century was a time of many great inventions and thoughts.
The invention of the steamboat caused a network of rivers to spring up.  Cyrus
McCormick invented the McCormick Raper, which did the work of a hundred men.
Samuel Morse invented a code for telepathy.  Louis Pastuer discovered a cure
for rabbis.  Charles Darwin was a naturailst who wrote the "Organ of the
Species".  Madman Curie discovered radium.  And Karl Marx became one of the
Marx Brothers.

    The First World War, cause by the assignation of the Arch-Duck by a surf,
ushered in a new error in the anals of human history.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 19 Nov 1993 09:05:59 +1100
From:    John Foster <PHS1A@CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Reply to James Irwin

Isn't revenge one of the main criteria used by the Nuremberg tribunal to
declare someone a war criminal?
   It is interesting to note that when the delegation under von Fiedeburg
were negotiating surrender with Montgomery they refused Monty's terms and
pleaded to be allowed to assist the population in the east who would suffer
under the Russians.Monty's reply was something to the effect of........
   "do you remember the little town of Coventry....which six years ago was
blown off the face of the earth by your bombers.The people who bore the brunt
of it were women children and old men.Your women and children get no sympathy
from me.." An interesting statement re the war crime tribunals guide lines.
    One day previous to this von Tippelskirch commander of the 21st army
group had entered into surrender negotiations with the slim Jim Gavin.At
one point the german general asked Gavin to take good care of the palace
they were in as it had once been his home.Gavin's reply was"Did the general
know how the the Germans had taken good care of Coventry back in 1940".
  This from a US soldier to boot .So it seems the morality issue in war
usually gets pushed somewhat to the rear.


                                                          Regards
                                                       John Foster
                                                      Newcastle UNI
                                                       Australia
  Any connection with Mick is entirely coincidental and probably the result
of a statistical abberration rather than a con genital abnormality.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 18 Nov 1993 18:44:46 -0400
From:    "Steven C. Salina" <SSALINA@BENTLEY.BITNET>
Subject: Hitler Stationary

I am wondering if anyone can offer me some advice.  I have been approached by
someone who claims he has some authentic Hitler stationary for sale.  He says
it belongs to the person who acquired it from the Chancelary in 1945.  This
person's name is Wolfgang VonEckhart.  He has a pice (piece)
of stationary and an envelope that are embossed with Hitler's seal.  He wants
me to make an offer to him as to a purchase price.  Does this sound fishy to
anyone?  If not, what would be a legit offer (my experience in theis is next
to nill)?  Any help would be most appreciated.

Thanx,
Steve Salina
Bentley College
SSALINA@BENTLEY.EDU

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 19 Nov 1993 11:43:54 AEST
From:    ccwilber@UQVAX.CC.UQ.OZ.AU
Subject: Re: Full Circle

Terry Moore writes -

>Yes. Air Vice-Marshal J.E. "Johnny" Johnson published a book in the
>early 1960's by the title you mention above "Full Circle". I have the
>Ballantine paperback edition of it, and read it when it came out. It
>deals with the history of aerial combat from WWI through Korea.

Terry,
        Thanks for that. I will have to go and see if I can find that one
in the library.

        But now that I am totally confused - I need help to find the book
I was originally thinking about. It was written by a British fighter
pilot, who (from memory) was a night fighter pilot. I remember anecdotes
about him converting from Beaufighters to Mosquitos - and how he "cooked"
on his first night patrol. (The Beaufighters had air-cooled radials, and
the Mossie had water-cooled Merlins, with a big radiator on each side of
the cockpit. The crew rugged up, as was normal for the Beaufighter!) I
thought the author was Alan Cunningham. Has anybody got any ideas.?

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Wilber WILLIAMS                            w.williams@cc.uq.edu.au      |
|Prentice Centre                            Telephone : +61 7 365 4232   |
|The University of Queensland               Facsimile : +61 7 365 4477   |
|Brisbane Qld 4072  AUSTRALIA                                            |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 17 Nov 1993 to 18 Nov 1993
*************************************************

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There are 17 messages totalling 1089 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. GEN: Hess Memorial
  2. Walter Boener lecture (2)
  3. USAAF 19-21 NOV 43
  4. REF:  Night Fighter
  5. GI POWs
  6. Humor: A study guide to History (3)
  7. Hitler Stationary
  8. Full Circle
  9. Immorality of aggressive war -- at Nuremberg (??)
 10. Nazi program
 11. DOC
 12. Ref: Re: History of the German General Staff, 1657-1945
 13. Weap: Re: Long Lance Torpedo
 14. NAV: Battle of Tarawa

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 19 Nov 1993 09:45:00 +0100
From:    Richard Cummings <CUMMINGSR@ADMINA.RFERL.ORG>
Subject: GEN: Hess Memorial

I found this Reuter item which should be of some interest to
the List.  Regards from Munich.

GLASGOW, Nov 18 (nca/Reuter) - Anti-racist protesters have
destroyed a memorial to Hitler's deputy Rudolf Hess in scotland.
the recent memorial was set up secretly in a remote field where
hess landed when he parachuted into britain in 1941 in a vain
attempt to stop world war two.

Demonstrators from the Anti-Nazi League took sledgehammers to the
marble and slate monument today only hours after officials and
Jewish community leaders called for its immediate removal.

No one has claimed responsibility for erecting the memorial on a
farm at Eaglesham, near Glasgow.


--==oo00oo==--
cummingsr@rferl.org
RFE/RL Inc
Munich,Germany

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 19 Nov 1993 03:16:14 -0400
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: Walter Boener lecture

I've just returned for a lecture presented by Mr. Walter Boener
at the USAF museum at Wright Patterson AFB.  If you recall from
a previous post, Boener is a former Luftwaffe fighter pilot.
After becoming an ace against the US 8th and 15th AFs, he was
courtmartialed and sentenced to be executed for disagreeing with
a fellow pilot who claimed that all of the American bomber pilots
were murderers.  Awaiting execution in Berlin cell, he escaped
when an air raid damaged the prison.

Here are a few details from his talk...

First of all, I'd like to apologize for misspelling his name in
the earlier post.  The correct spelling is Boener, not Boerner.
The museum's handout for the lecture series had it spelled both
ways, and I guessed the wrong one.

The son of a German diplomat in Paraguay, Boener's family returned
to Germany when the S. American countries began declaring war on
Germany.  Trained by the Hitler Youth, Boener became an accomplished
glider pilot by the time he was 15.  As he looked older, and since
he wanted to fly, he added three years to his age and was inducted
into the Luftwaffe.

After learning to fly fighters, he was assigned for a time to the
test center at Rechlin, where he flew several interesting armament
trials.  One was a Bf 109G-12 (two seater) which was modified to
carry four Panzerfaust (infantry anti-tank weapon) under each wing.
Apparently little thought was given to aiming the weapon.  In
trials against captured Soviet tanks, Boener did indeed manage to
destroy one tank.  Unfortunately, it was not the tank that he had
been trying to hit.

A second, more successful, anti-tank weapon he tested involved
carrying eight Panzerschreck (sp?), a bazooka-like weapon, again
under the wings of a Bf 109.  During operational trials on the
Eastern front, he claimed to have destroyed 31 of 34 tanks he
attacked using this weapon.  (He indicated that the turret of one
T-34 was blown almost 2000 feet into the air.)  Although effective,
Boener disliked the weapon because of the enormous performance
penalty exacted on the aircraft.  On his final flight with this
setup, he was bounced by a dozen Soviet fighters.  He attempted
to salvo the weapons at the attackers, mostly to get rid of the
extra weight.  One of the eight failed to launch and was
subsequently hit by Soviet fire.  It exploded, taking the left
wing off the aircraft.  Boener managed to parachute to safety and
was recovered by a German reconnaissance patrol.

The third weapons trial Boener mentioned was the test-fitting of
a 88mm cannon under the fuselage of a Junkers Ju 88.  The intent
was to use the weapon to attack bomber formations.  Because of the
enormous recoil of the cannon, it was fitted with a device that
simultaneously launched a wooden projectile backwards, reducing
the recoil.  Despite this, when Boener fired the weapon, two of
the three wing spars broke, leaving the wing attached to the
fuselage by only the rear spar.  He managed to return to the
field where upon touch down the wing parted company completely.

Boener finally entered fighter combat in May 1944.  Assigned to
III/JG54 on the Eastern front, the unit was returned to Germany in
July to become part of the Defense of the Reich forces.  In
October, two staffeln of JG54 were assigned to the Achmer/Hespe
area to provide protection for JG7's Me 262 jets.  The jets were
very vulnerable on takeoff and landing, and soon required other
conventional fighters to protect them from attack.  Boener was
later tapped to fly the Me 262 himself, with his first flights
in November.

He related that he was given a small booklet, which he brought
to the lecture, which contained the operational instructions for
the Me 262.  The book was perhaps 4"x6"x 1/4" thick.  He was told
in essence that anything that he couldn't fix while flying the
aircraft he shouldn't worry about.  He was given rudimentary
precautions about the new fighter and was told to take off and
make a few trial landings, and that he would be told when to
stop.  After the second landing he was told to stop, that he was
now proficient in the new jet.

He didn't mention if he had acheived any victories with the Me 262,
but he did tell of a B-17 that he had shot down over Belgium.  All
of the crew bailed out of the bomber, with Boener counting all ten
parachutes.  Knowing that the Belgians would hide the crew, he
reported that none of the crew had bailed out so that the Germans
would not search for them.  He had the good fortune after the war
to meet the pilot of the bomber, who did not know the reason for
their being able to evade capture.

Boener mentioned an incident which he indicated occurred in 1936.
He said that a group of Luftwaffe officers met with a British
official in Sweden to ask Britain's help in removing Hitler from
power.  Does anyone on the list have any more information on this?

After the lecture, Boener answered questions from the audience.
He was asked about the service life of the jet engines.  His
answer was that it depended on the pilot.  If you did everything
right, most of the time you could get 10 or even 15 hours of use
out of the engine befoer it needed overhaul, with a very few
lasting 20 hours and some lasting less than five.  He also indicated
that an experienced crew could change an engine in 23 minutes,
with an inexperienced crew needing perhaps 28 minutes.  He said
that the engine had three attach points to the wing and that all
of the other fittings were equpped with quick-disconnects.

Another member of the audience asked him to compare the cockpits
of the Bf 109, Fw 190, and P-47.  (After escaping the Berlin prison,
Boener made his way to the Allied lines and wound up flying the
P-47 *against* the Luftwaffe!)  He said that he preferred the
Bf 109 to the Fw 190 because of its small cockpit.  He said that
it felt as if you wore a Bf 109, while you rode in a Fw 190.  He
added that by comparison, the Thunderbolt's cockpit reminded him
of a ballroom.

Boener's autobiography, "In Defiance" (ISBN #080 624731 2) was
due to be released in September 1993, but is still not yet in
print.  The latest word is that the book will be available by
January 1994 (18.95 US$, published by Carlton Press.)



There is no lecture scheduled for the month of December.  January's
speaker will be Richard Gillespie, who claims to have solved the
mystery of the disappearance of Amelia Earhart.



Dennis E. Sparks
SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 19 Nov 1993 07:18:54 -0500
From:    jem3@CC.BELLCORE.COM
Subject: USAAF 19-21 NOV 43

               COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
                          19 - 21 NOVEMBER 43

FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  Ventura, Lockheed
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt

FRIDAY, 19 NOVEMBER 1943

CENTRAL PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Seventh Air Force): 31 B-24's from
Ellice Island bases hit Makin Island and Tarawa Atoll in the Gilbert Islands.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, B-25's on shipping sweeps in the S
China Sea strafe 2 vessels off Hong Kong, score damaging hits on 2 vessels at
Kiungshan, damage a freighter off Tsao Tao Island, and leave a gunboat and
freighter sinking E of Swatow; warehouses and wharves at Swatow also are hit.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): VIII Bomber Command Mission 134:
127 of 161 B-17's and 3 of 6 B-17 PFF aircraft are dispatched to Gelsenkirchen, Germany but the malfunction of blind-bombing equipment and the weather causes
the force to attack targets of opportunity on the German-Dutch border at
1241-1251 hours; 1 B-17 crashes after takeoff; the crew of 10 are KIA.
  VIII Bomber Command Mission 135: 6 B-17's drop 2.316 million leaflets on
Amiens and Reims, France; Brussels and Ghent, Belgium; and Amsterdam and The
Hague, The Netherlands at 1915-2011 hours; no losses.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 100+ B-26's dispatched to attack
airfields in France abort the mission when bad weather prevents rendezvous
with the fighter escorts.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Weather causes the recall of all
aircraft dispatched.
  The 512th, 513th and 515th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), 376th Bombardment
Group (Heavy), transfer from Enfidaville, Tunisia to San Pancrazio, Italy
with B-24's.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, XII Air Support Command
A-36's and P-40's bomb a bridge E of Cassino and the bridge and village of
Pontecorvo, and, along with Royal Air Force (RAF) Desert Air Force (DAF)
fighter-bombers, hit strongpoints around the village of Barrea while supporting
ground forces. Fighters (mostly RAF DAF) also strafe trucks and trains around
Rieti, Italy and Metkovic, Yugoslavia.
  HQ 79th Fighter Group and it's 85th and 86th Fighter Squadrons transfer from
Foggia to Madna Airfield, Italy with P-40's.
  HQ 86th Fighter-Bomber Group and it's 525th Fighter-Bomber Squadron transfer
from Serretella Airfield to Pomigliano, Italy with A-36's.
  HQ 340th Bombardment Group (Medium) and it's 486th Bombardment Squadron
(Medium) transfer from San Pancrazio to Foggia, Italy with B-25's.
  The 380th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 310th Bombardment Group (Medium),
based at Philippeville, Algeria, ceases operating from Oudna, Tunisia with
B-25's and returns to base.
  The 428th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 310th Bombardment Group (Medium),
transfers from Menzel Temime, Tunisia to Philippeville, Algeria with B-25's.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, 10 B-25's bomb the Matchin Bay area on Bougainville Island and the
airfield on Ballale Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea,
nearly 30 B-25's and B-26's bomb positions in the Sattelberg area; A-20's hit
the Finschhafen area. B-25's attack Kentengi Anchorage in the Bismarck
Archipelago.
  HQ 58th Fighter Group arrives at Sydney, New South Wales, Australia from
the US.
  The 25th Liaison Squadron, Fifth Air Force, arrives at Sydney, New South
Wales, Australia from the US with L-5's.
  The 25th and 26th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadrons, 6th Photographic
Reconnaissance Group, arrive at Sydney, New South Wales, Australia from the
US with F-5's.

SATURDAY, 20 NOVEMBER 1943

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ZONE OF INTERIOR (Second Air Force): HQ XX Bomber Command is activated at
Smoky Hill AAFld, Kansas.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 2 B-25's hit warehouses and barracks
on Nampang Island; weather prevents completion of several other scheduled
missions.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Weather cancels all bomber
operations. Operations are restricted to weather reconnaissance from
Decimomannu, Sardinia to Cape Linaro, Italy.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, XII Air Support Command
and RAF DAF fighters carry out uneventful armed reconnaissance; the Northwest
African Tactical Bomber Force (NATBF) hits the Porto Civitanova railway
junction, Pedaso, Giulianova, and Loreto.
  HQ 321st Bombardment Group (Medium) and it's 445th and 448th Bombardment
Squadrons (Medium) transfer from Grottaglie to Amendola, Italy with B-25's.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): On Bougainville
Island in the Solomon Islands, 45 B-25's, Royal New Zealand Air Force (RNZAF)
Ventura's and P-38's attack Bonis airfield; a few other B-25's strafe coastal
villages in the Empress Augusta Bay region.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 50
B-25's and B-26's pound Japanese positions in the Sattelberg area and sink or
damage at least 10 luggers in Hansa Bay; A-20's hit the Lae area. 50 B-24's
bomb Gasmata Island off the S coast of New Britain Island.
  HQ 49th Fighter Group transfers from Dobodura to Gusap, New Guinea.

SUNDAY, 21 NOVEMBER 1943

CENTRAL PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Seventh Air Force): Following the 20
Nov amphibious landings on Tarawa Atoll and Makin Island in the Gilbert
Islands, the Seventh Air Force resumes operations against the Marshall
Islands, in support of the base-development phase of Operation GALVANIC
(the assault on the Gilbert Islands) and in preparation for invasion of the
Marshall Islands [Operation FLINTLOCK (operations against Kwajalein and
Majuro Atolls) and Operation CATCHPOLE (operations against Eniwetok and
Ujelang Atolls)]. B-24's from Funafuti Atoll and Nanumea Island in the Ellice
Islands bomb Nauru Island in the Gilbert Islands.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 29 P-40's strafe 100+ sampans and
small boats on Tungting Lake in the Li-Chou-Changte-Ansiang area; 12 P-40's
attack 5 vessels, 20 houses, and 100 men at Shihmen and between Shihmen and
Li-Chou; 8 others hit troops and small river boats near Tsowshih; 12 P-40's
and 4 B-25's pound the town of Tzeli; 4 other B-25's on shipping sweeps over
the S China Sea damage a freighter and blast buildings at Taiping-hsu airfield.
  The 76th Fighter Squadron, 23d Fighter Group, transfers from Hengyang to
Kweilin, China with P-40's; a detachment of the squadron is operating from
Suichwan.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Italy, B-26's bomb the harbor
at Civitavecchia, a bridge at Fano, and marshalling yard at Chiusi; P-38's
provide escort to the latter target.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, NATBF B-25's bomb gun
emplacements at Gaeta; US and RAF fighter-bombers of the RAF DAF hit
strongpoints in the Santa Maria Imbaro and Poggiofiorito areas; fighters carry
out patrols and reconnaissance along the battleline along the Corigliano and
Sangro Rivers.

SOUTH PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon
Islands, Brigadier General Nathan F Twining, USAAF, Commander Air Solomons
(COMAIRSOLS), is succeeded by Major General Ralph J Mitchell, USMC. A few
B-25's on a shipping search strafe Kieta on Bougainville Island

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Fifth Air Force): B-24's bomb Gasmata
Island off New Britain Island in the Bismarck Archipelago. In New Guinea,
A-20's again hit the Finschhafen area; B-25's and B-24's hit shipping and
other targets on Aroe Island and off Manokwari.
  HQ 58th Fighter Group transfers from Sydney, New South Wales to Brisbane,
Queensland, Australia. The group's 69th and 311th Fighter Squadrons arrive
at Brisbane from the US with P-47's. They will fly their first mission on 17
and 2 Feb 44 respectively.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 19 Nov 1993 08:26:28 EST
From:    Charles Reace <creace@ISD.CSC.COM>
Subject: REF:  Night Fighter

To those who asked, the book I was thinking of is _Night_Fighter_, by
J.R.D. Braham, Bantam Books, ISBN 0-553-24127-3.  It is Braham's personal
account of being a pilot in WWII, most of which was spent flying
Beaufighters and Mosquitoes, largely in the night fighter role.

The early nightfighter missions were to intercept German bombers, while
later in the war they were as escort to the British bomber streams.
Ironically, his war came to an end in June 44 during a *day* mission,
but he didn't have to stay in prison very long.

The book's a decent read, and is the only one I've read by someone who
flew Beaufighters.

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <creace@isd.csc.com>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 19 Nov 1993 09:28:37 EST
From:    "Denis Ouellette, Indiana Univ" <OUELLETT@UCS.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: GI POWs

Mary-
The book "STALAG LUFT III" by Arthur A. Durand, 1988 Simon & Schuster is
nonfiction account of the story that was the bases of "The Great Escape".
A good portion of the book is devoted to camp life - social organization,
diet, relatationship with the germans, living conditions etc. - it is
quite detailed in these respects.  I would highly recommend it.
Denis Ouellette
ouellett@ucs.indiana.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 19 Nov 1993 09:32:39 EST
From:    lbscott <LBSCOTT@ECUVM1.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Humor: A study guide to History

Nice. I like the part about Sir Walter inventing cigarettes. That's something t
hey could incorporate into the "Lost Colony." Then the colony could vanish in a
 puff os smoke! (Actually the lost colonists went to Atlantis where they formed
 a New Nation under James Shenton!  Next fall on PBS)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 19 Nov 1993 09:23:39 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: Hitler Stationary

In your message of 18 Nov 1993 at 2048 CST, you write:

> I am wondering if anyone can offer me some advice.  I have been approached by
> someone who claims he has some authentic Hitler stationary for sale.  He says
> it belongs to the person who acquired it from the Chancellory in 1945.  This
> person's name is Wolfgang VonEckhart.  He has a pice (piece)
> of stationary and an envelope that are embossed with Hitler's seal.  He wants
> me to make an offer to him as to a purchase price.  Does this sound fishy to
> anyone?  If not, what would be a legit offer (my experience in theis is next
> to nill)?  Any help would be most appreciated.
>
> Thanx,
> Steve Salina
> Bentley College
> SSALINA@BENTLEY.EDU

Hi Steve,

I'll answer this to the net as some other folks may come across this
type of collectable from time to time.  I am not an expert on
documents from the 3rd Reich by a long shot but I have seen Hitler
stationary on occasion.

The main thing that drives the value of Hitler stationary is what is
written on it.  An order from Hitler in his own hand instructing his
minions to begin the systematic destruction of the worlds Jewish
population would be more valuable than a typed grocery list with no
signature, especially to David Irving who maintains that a
document such as the former does not exist and has offered 10,000
British Pounds as I recall.  There I go again with Irving....

I would have to dig around for a reference but off hand I would not
expect to pay more than $50 for a blank sheet of stationary and
envelope.  Keep in mind that pretty much everything from the 3rd
Reich has been reproduced.  I am not aware of any fake Hitler
stationary floating around but then the repro artists don't check
with me before introducing their material onto the market :-(

Embossed stamps can still be found the same as unit stamps and
typewriters with the "SS" key.  As the prices rise the fakers take
more pains to perfect their "art".  Bottom line is if you feel the
least bit apprehensive, don't do it.  As with any collectable, 3rd
Reich relic pricing is based on "the greater fool theory".  Others
will say that its supply and demand but I have been collecting for 20
years and am not fooling myself any more. :-/

Hopefully, Terry Moore will chime in.  He has a lot of smarts on this
subject as he collects this kind of material more than I do.  He may
be a while in answering as he is here in San Antonio this weekend on
business (and a howdy-howdy with me on his free time) :-)

I have not heard of this dealer (von Eckhart) so I cannot vouch for
him.  I can tell you that the examples of Hitler stationary that I
have seen have a gold NSDAP (Nazi Party) eagle centered at the top
and the name ADOLF HITLER also in gold letters and in Roman capitals
to the lower left of the eagle and typically the city name (Mu"nchen,
Berlin or Berchtesgaden etc) to the lower right of the eagle on the
same line as Hitler's name.  I have seen some that the city name is
not present.

If you happen to be near Oklahoma City I suggest visiting the 45th
Infantry Museum.  The curator is a fellow named Mike Gonzales.  Ask
him for permission to view the files upstairs as there are a number
of letters written by 45th members on original Hitler stationary from
Berchtesgaden, to their families back in the States.  These letters
were donated to the museum by vets and their families so chances are
they are originals. (!)

The type I have described above is typical of Hitler stationary.
There may be other styles but I have not encountered them.

Good luck, Bill Huber
           whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 19 Nov 1993 09:39:50 -0500
From:    "M. Joseph Barone" <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: Humor: A study guide to History

No fair!  There should have been a warning not to drink coffee
while reading this!  I laughed so hard, I'm just glad I didn't
have any accidents!  Thanks for the essay!
--
Joe Barone
m1b@rayssd.ssd.ray.com
   Cowboy: Peugh! You guys smell like a dungheap!
Crap Game: Makes you kinda miss home, don't it?

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 19 Nov 1993 10:23:39 CST
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Full Circle

Right, Terry.  That's it.  Thanks.

Lou

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 19 Nov 1993 11:04:47 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: Walter Boener lecture

In your message of 19 Nov 1993 at 0257 CST, you write:

> I've just returned for a lecture presented by Mr. Walter Boener
> at the USAF museum at Wright Patterson AFB.  If you recall from
>
> Dennis E. Sparks
> SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU
> Lexington, Kentucky


Super post Dennis!  Keep 'em coming!

Bill Huber

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 19 Nov 1993 10:44:18 CST
From:    Lou Coatney <MSLRC@ECNUXA.BITNET>
Subject: Immorality of aggressive war -- at Nuremberg (??)

John,

     When the German/Nazi defendants were accused of planning/executing
aggressive war, they broke into derisive laughter.

     The Soviets had been full partners in the war-starting invasion of
Poland in 1939, had conquered/subjugated Poland themselves in 1944-45, and
were now sitting in prosecuting judgement of the Germans!  The abortive
and Allies-EMBARRASSING attempt by the Soviets to blame Katyn on the Germans
highlighted this underlying hypocrisy.

     Justice and morality would have been better served by putting the
Soviets in the dock too, possibly.  Comments?

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 19 Nov 1993 21:30:34 +0700
From:    "Peter E. Beal" <beal@NWG.NECTEC.OR.TH>
Subject: Re: Nazi program

Interesting post.  Could you (or anybody) provide more details on the
source, i.e. "WWII Through German Eyes", such as author, publisher, etc.

Thanks

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 19 Nov 1993 13:40:38 -0500
From:    Robert Doyle <doyle@CHEM.NRL.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: DOC

I'm trying to find a source for sections 7 and 8 of the following:

"Regimental Unit Study ... The Normandy Operations of the 82ND and
the 101ST Airborne Divisions",
U.S. Army, European Theater of Operations, History Section, 1945.
D769 .346 82d .U47 1945
I have copies of sections 1-6 and 9 (the originals are in very bad
shape) but sections 7 and 8 are missing. In addition, there is no
indication of the titles of these sections. Any help from the group
would be appreciated.

Bob

Robert J. Doyle, Jr.
Naval Research Laboratory
Washington, DC
doyle@chem.nrl.navy.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 19 Nov 1993 16:10:16 EST
From:    "TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET" <TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET>
Subject: Ref: Re: History of the German General Staff, 1657-1945

 To: Multiple Recipients of List WWII-L(WWII-L@UBVM.BITNET)
 X-To: whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil(William Huber-SCDR)WWII-L@ubvm.bitnet

 Hi Bill,
        In your message of 17 Nov 1993 at 15:44:17 CST, regarding the book,
 History of the German General Staff, 1657-1945, by WalterGoerlitz, 1959, you
 write:
       Is this the [book] I am thinking of that gives a biography of every
 German officer that reached the rank of General ?
 My peply: This is a single book (499 pages), translated by Brian Battershaw,
 published by Praeger, New York. I believe you are thinking of a different
 reference. This book is not an analysis of how the Oberquartiermeister
 functioned in 1699 or just how the Truppenamt (the name assumed by the
 General Staff after Versailles) was organized in the period before Hitler.
 It is the story of Scharnhorst, Boyen, Gneisenau, Clausewitz, the elder
 Moltke, Waldersee, Schlieffen, the younger Moltke, Hindenburg and Ludendorff,
 Seeckt, Schleicher, Beck, Blomberg, Halder, Rundstedt, Keitel, Guderian,Jodl
 and many more, by no means ommitting the brilliant von Stauffenberg who
 organized and gave his life to the conspiracy of July, 1944, which
 endeavored to eliminate Hitler, and so tragically failed.
 It is an amazing story, and one not well known in the West. Actually, the
 General Staff was not destroyed by the Treaty of Versailles (it merely
 changed its name and carried on as the Truppenamt under the office of the
 Heeresleitung) but it was destroyed by Hitler. Hitler set up the
 Oberkommando Wehrmacht (OKW) under Keitel with its own staff under Jodl.- -
 Dr.Goerlitz does not conceal Schleicher's  manipulations in the pre-war
 period, or defend the general attitude of an official and officer class which
 produced its own destruction along with that of a world society. He draws a
 picture of men like Beck or Halder or von Model or even Rommel in the end,
 tortured by their consciences and their fears, caught up upon Hitlerian
 Satanism, unable either to acquiesce or to oppose, bound by oaths which others
 had betrayed and dedicated to a national end which others had turned into a
 thing of loathing abomination.
 Additional references from my personal library on this subject  are:
    Gordon A. Craig's,The Politics of the Prussian Army, 1640-1945, reprint
 1979; also Craig's, Germany, 1866-1945, dated 1978, both books published by
 Oxford University Press; General Heinz Guderian's, Panzer Leader, 1990 ; and
 finally, Peter Paret's outstanding work, Makers of Modern Strategy from
 Machiavelli to the Nuclear Age, published by Princeton University Press, 1986.
 > Could you tell me the names of the officers for whom you would like to know
 more about. Also, please inform me of your U.S. Mail address, I could have
 more info to follow.
 If you are interested, here is the mail address of Old Dominion University
 Graduate Program Director's name:  Dr.Carl Boyd
                                    Department of History
                                    Old Dominion University
                                    Norfolk, VA  23529-0091
                                    Tel.: (804) 683-3951
 He was my Professor in several graduate courses. An Ex-U.S.Navy Submariner.

 Carl
 TCWERNC@VCCSCENT,BITNET

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 19 Nov 1993 17:42:46 -0330
From:    CHILL <tpardy@MORGAN.UCS.MUN.CA>
Subject: Re: Humor: A study guide to History

        This semester I had to grade a paper for a History course on French
Revolution. The paper dealt with the impact of the F.R. on the pheasants
(Hungh?). 2000 words and he didn't even realize he was talking about a
bird! What do you say to a person like that? Sniff Sniff...I smell
a re-write I do believe.

Todd Pardy

BTW. Thanks for the help on my Technology request. I am writing my paper
of the German Type XXI submarine. Any comments?

       From the bottom it looks like a steep incline, from the top
      another down hill slope of mine...but I know the equilibrium's
                                 there !
                        Mike Patton of Faith No More

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 19 Nov 1993 22:16:13 EST
From:    "TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET" <TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET>
Subject: Weap: Re: Long Lance Torpedo

 To: Multiple Recipients of List WWII-L(WWII-L@UBVM.BITNET)

 Calling on all positive and negative replies from the List.
 Mr.Todaka, Tokyo, Japan, an Imperial Japanese Navy weapons expert, stated in
 his letter to Mr.Norman Polmar, 28 Sept 1993, that it was his opinion the
 term of NAGAYARI, (or Long Lance), probably originated in the United States
 rather than in Japan. He also stated the term of GYORAI (torpedo) was used
 in the IJN Combined Fleet and automatically meant the Type 93 torpedo.
 Possibly someone on our side thought up the name. Maybe someone connected
 with Samuel Eliot Morison official History of the Navy in World WarII.
 The Japanese did not use nicknames of this kind with theirweapons, usually.
 The torpedo was a Type 93 torpedo because it was adopted in the year 2593
 of the traditional calendar (1933). The Zero was called that because it was
 adopted in 2600 (the last digit Zero), that is, 1940.
 Later in the war some aircraft got poetic names, but not in the 1930s. We
 had names like Aircobra and Wildcat, they just had designations like Type 99
 Carrier-Borne Attack Airplane.
 U.S.Naval Technical Mission to Japan, March 1946, "Japanese Torpedoes and
 Tubes, Article 1," did not mention Long Lance by name.- - We know the
 Japanese called the torpedo Type 93; the Japanese sources, moreover,
 indicated that the term NAGAYARI appears nowhere in Japanese studies.
 We need some American to step out of the historical shadows and say, I named
 the thing at such and such a time and it appeared first in such and such a
 study.
 QUESTION: Who gave the Long Lance its name, and why ?
 All comments are welcome !

 Carl Wernke

 TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 19 Nov 1993 23:32:59 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: NAV: Battle of Tarawa

-----------------------------------------------------------------
NAVY & MARINE CORPS WORLD WAR II COMMEMORATIVE COMMITTEE
A service of Navy Chief of Information Office
(703)695-3161/DSN 225-3161
-----------------------------------------------------------------

THE BATTLE OF TARAWA

By L.C. Kukral
WWII Committee

     In 1943, U.S. forces advanced through the Central Pacific,
continuing the offensive thrust aimed ultimately at the Japanese
home islands.  The plan of attack called for them to take the
Gilbert Islands, then the Marshalls and finally the Marianas.


     For Operation Galvanic, the seizure of the Gilberts, the 5th
Amphibious Corps under Marine Major General Holland M. "Howlin~
Mad" Smith was chosen as the landing force.  The corps consisted
of the 2nd Marine Division under Major General Julian C. Smith
and the Army~s 27th Infantry Division, led by Major General Ralph
C. Smith.  The 2nd Marine Division would take Tarawa, and the
27th Infantry Division would take Makin Atoll, 100 miles north of
Tarawa on a line to the Marshalls.

     The Gilberts were a vital first step in the Central Pacific
campaign.  Without them, land-based reconnaissance and combat
planes could not reach the Marshalls.  Carrier-based planes,
which had the reach, could not provide the integrated photo
reconnaissance necessary for planning the Marshalls operation.
The Gilberts also offered Japanese-constructed airstrips and a
shortened supply route to the south and southwest areas of the
Pacific.

     Tarawa Atoll, specifically Betio Island, was selected as the
target of the main assault because it contained an airfield and
the bulk of the Japanese defenses.  The atoll, at no point higher
than 10 feet above sea level, is a triangular string of long,
narrow coral islands with Betio at the southwest corner.
     Surrounded by a barrier reef, Betio presented a serious
challenge to amphibious landing craft, which would hang up on the
reef if there wasn~t a sufficient tide depth to allow them to
cross.

     Once across the reef, the 2nd Division Marines assigned to
Betio, which measured roughly 3 miles wide and 600 yards deep,
would face formidable defenses.  According to naval historian
Samuel Eliot Morison, the water around the island was rife with
mines, barbed wire and barricades designed to divert landing
craft into lanes that were heavily covered by artillery.

     The Japanese had hundreds of guns, among them a system of
heavy machine guns protected by coconut logs, sand, concrete and
armored plate; 14 coast defense guns, all with underground
ammunition storage and fire control systems; 25 37-mm and 75-mm
field guns in shelters that were immune to direct hits from all
but the largest guns; and an unknown number of anti-aircraft
guns.

     Japanese defenders on Betio also had built a system of
bomb-proof shelters made of coconut logs braced with angle irons.
The roofs of these shelters were at least 6 feet thick and
covered over with sand, logs and corrugated iron.  Only
heavy-caliber armor-piercing or other delayed-action shells could
penetrate them. These shelters were also compartmented, so that
the defenders enjoyed protection from grenades and explosives
hurled through the openings.

     Altogether, the Japanese occupied 500 pillboxes, bunkers and
other strong points on the small island.  In the words of U.S.
Army historians, "Tarawa was the most heavily defended atoll that
would ever be invaded by Allied forces in the Pacific."

Preliminary Attacks

     Planners of Operation Galvanic wanted to take Betio quickly,
before the Japanese could bring what were believed to be powerful
submarine and air forces into the arena.  To preserve strategic
surprise, they ruled out concentrated air and naval bombardment
until immediately before the assault.

     On Nov. 17-18, planes and ships from the Navy~s Southern
Carrier Group bombed islands throughout the Gilberts to keep the
enemy confused about where the assault would come.  While these
raids took out some of Betio~s guns, their most significant
benefit was that they caused the Japanese to shoot off
ammunition.  On Nov. 20, Betio~s defenders had only 4,800 rounds
of 75-mm and 127-mm anti-aircraft ammunition, and 15,000 rounds
of 13-mm machine gun bullets.

D-Day

     The Marines landed Nov. 20, 1943, on Betio~s northwest
shore.  The 2nd Marine Division came up with the innovative idea
of using logistical support amphibian tractors (LVTs) as assault
craft. LVTs would be effective in crossing the island~s fringing
reef and man-made obstacles.  Unfortunately, there were only
enough LVTs for the first three assault waves.  After that,
unless the tide was right, the Marines would have trouble getting
the remaining waves across the reef in Higgins boats (LCVPs),
which had a draft of 3-1/2 feet.

     Betio~s northwest shore was divided into Red Beach 1, 2 and
3, respectively, from west to east.  A 500-yard pier marked the
boundary between Red Beach 2 and Red 3 and extended north into
the lagoon just beyond the fringing reef.  The short western side
of the island was designated as Green Beach.  The Marines hoped
to land a three-battalion front on the Red beaches, sweep across
the island (a total distance of about 600 yards), capture the
airfield and pin the enemy down on the island~s west end.

     Sustained naval bombardment and carrier-based bomber strikes
preceded the Marines.  Timing and communications problems made
these less effective than needed, but Japanese gunners were
stopped long enough to allow the first three assault waves to
reach the beach relatively unscathed.

     The 2nd Scout-Sniper Platoon led by 1st Lieutenant William
D. Hawkins landed first, winning the pier from enemy snipers.
Then, the first elements of the 3rd Battalion, 2nd Marines came
in on Red Beach 1.  On the left of their beach, at the boundary
with Red Beach 2, was a Japanese strong point that raked the
Marines coming in on the west side of Red 1 with machine gun
fire.  Once landed, the Marines on Red 1 would take 35-50 percent
casualties.  Red 3 was the next beach reached, by the 2nd
Battalion, 8th Marines.  Part of this group got as far inland as
the airstrip before the Japanese recovered from naval
bombardment.  This group took only 25 casualties in landing.

     The most violently opposed landing was that of 2nd
Battalion, 2nd Marines on Red 2.  Some of these troops were
driven off course by machine gun and anti-boat fire and forced to
land on Red 1.  The remainder, who reached Red 2, managed to
carve out a beachhead only about 50 yards deep.

     Once the first three assault waves were in, two waves of
landing boats were set to follow.  These carried additional
troops, tanks and artillery.  Unfortunately, the irregular tides
in the Gilberts worked against the landing force, and there was
not enough water depth over the reef for the landing boats to
cross. Infantry and howitzer crews had to wade ashore with
weapons and equipment.

     These men suffered the worst casualties of D-day.  The only
cover from Japanese machine gunners and riflemen was the pier;
many did not reach it.  Many of those who did were separated from
their units and chain of command, and were unable to move to
their proper beaches.  At this point, the momentum of the assault
bogged down because the reef effectively barred the landing
boats, the number of amphtracs was being rapidly reduced, units
were disorganized and communications were spotty.

     The fierce action on the beach did not stop to allow the
Marines to regroup, establish command posts, move in supplies or
carry out their wounded.  In the words of Marine historians, only
"the grim determination of individual Marines, who simply kept
coming, in spite of all the enemy could hurl at them," offset the
confusion.

     By evening, the Marines~ situation was tenuous at best.  Of
about 5,000 men who had gone ashore, 1,500 were either killed or
wounded. Marines held a perimeter about 700 yards wide and 300
yards deep at the base of the pier, and an area about 150 yards
by 500 yards at the northwest tip of the island.  Most believed
that a Japanese counterattack was bound to come during the night.
If it had, it may well have succeeded.  Julian Smith said that
the Japanese commander lost the battle of Tarawa that night by
failing to attack.  Historians say the Japanese counterattack did
not come because Japanese communications had been severely
damaged by naval gunfire.

     At nightfall, Navy ships cruised offshore for protection
against air and submarine attack.  Throughout D-day, the
destroyers Ringgold, Dashiell, Frazier and Anderson had provided
gunfire support on call to Marines ashore, a significant
contribution to the course of the battle.  Frazier continued this
duty throughout the night.

     Bombing and strafing had gone on all day--32 strikes in all,
launched from carriers and escort carriers.  Navy medical
corpsmen continued working throughout the night to ferry the
wounded over the reef in rubber rafts, while Marines carried
water, pack howitzers, ammunition and medical supplies ashore.

D Plus 1 Day

     Early on the morning of Nov. 21, the 1st Battalion, 8th
Marines, who had spent almost 20 hours in boats waiting to land,
fought their way in to reinforce the beachhead on Red 1.
Battalion casualties were severe:  while wading ashore, the men
took heavy machine-gun fire from strong points on the beach, as
well as intense sniper fire from Japanese hiding in the hulks of
sunken craft along the reef.

     The second day of fighting on Betio was a yard-by-yard
struggle. By noon, Marines fighting from Red Beach 2 gained the
southern coast of the island, cutting the Japanese defenders into
two groups.  Third Battalion, 2nd Marines on the western end of
the island, supported by close naval gunfire and Sherman medium
tanks (in their first combat deployment in the Pacific),
succeeded in clearing all of Green Beach.  This provided a secure
beach for landing reinforcements and equipment.

     With both beachheads expanded and the movement of
reinforcements and supplies brought under control, Colonel David
M. Shoup, senior commander on the island, radioed Julian Smith in
late afternoon that the Marines were winning.  The unopposed
landing of the 1st Battalion, 6th Marines at dusk on Green Beach
gave Shoup his first fully intact, fully equipped infantry unit
to deploy inland.

Bairiki

     Also on Nov. 21, reports said that the Japanese were
crossing from the southeast end of Betio Island to Bairiki, a
nearby islet.  Julian Smith committed the 2nd Battalion, 6th
Marines to halt them and secure Bairiki.  These Marines landed in
late afternoon, unresisted.  Naval gunfire supporting their
landing had put a quick end to the small number of Japanese
fighters.  A strafing plane hit a can of gasoline near the
Japanese machine gun nests.  The can exploded and burned out the
enemy.  The Marines then set up artillery on Bairiki to help in
winning Betio.

D Plus 2 Day

     Early on the morning of Nov. 22, the Japanese defenders of
Betio sent a final, desperate message.  In part, the message said
that their weapons had been destroyed, and they were attempting
"a final charge."  The charge did not come until nightfall.  By
that time the Japanese-held portion of Betio had diminished
radically.

     The Marines swept eastward.  Sherman tanks, closely
supported by infantry, demolition experts and flamethrowers,
pounded enemy pillboxes and bomb shelters.  At the end of the
day, Japanese still held strong points inland from Red Beach 1,
at the eastern end of the airfield and at the eastern end of the
island.  Three times during the night, Japanese counterattacks
surged from the eastern end of the island against two companies
of the 1st Battalion, 6th Marines;  three times they were fought
off with artillery, grenades, machine guns, rifles and bayonets.

     The destroyers Schroeder and Sigsbee also battered Betio~s
defenders. The next morning, 325 Japanese bodies were counted,
but about 500 were believed still alive.

D Plus 3 Day

     On the fourth day of battle, Nov. 23, the 3rd Battalion 6th
Marines successfully stormed the eastern end of the island.  The
pocket of strong resistance behind Red Beach 1 was also
eliminated.  Of the estimated 2,800 members of the Japanese
Special Naval Landing Force on Betio, only 17 survived to
surrender.  Of the additional 2,000 Korean construction troops,
129 survived.

     While the goal of clearing the remaining Japanese
strongholds was being accomplished, Marine engineers and Navy
Seabees (construction battalions) worked to repair Betio~s
airstrip.  At noon, a carrier-based plane landed there.  Shortly
after, Julian Smith declared the island secure.

Securing the Atoll

     The 2nd Battalion, 6th Marines continued its sweep through
the Tarawa Atoll, securing each island and islet.  Other than the
Japanese they found on Bairiki, only one island, Buariki, was
occupied.  On Nov. 26 in the Battle of Buariki, the entire
Japanese force of 156 fought to the death.  The Marines lost 34
killed, and 56 were wounded.

Campaign Results

     Strategically, the victory at Tarawa opened the way to the
Marshall Islands.  Tactically, it established the amphibious
assault as the method used thereafter to defeat Japan in the
Pacific campaign.

     Tarawa was the first major amphibious assault in the Pacific
in which U.S. troops faced sustained opposition on the beach.
The American people were deeply disturbed by reports of high
casualties suffered by the 2nd Marine Division (1,027 dead, 88
missing and 2,292 wounded).  The high casualties were a result of
making a direct assault against a determined, well-armed and
deeply fortified enemy.  Inadequate preliminary bombardment,
communications problems and inexperienced boat handlers who
missed their landing destinations played a part.

     The Navy-Marine Corps team learned much from Tarawa and
quickly applied this experience in seizing and defending atolls
throughout the Central Pacific.  Among the lessons learned at
Tarawa were the need for naval gunfire of greater duration and
accuracy, coordinated close air support, more LVTs and improved
battle communications.


Sources

Crowl, Philip A. and Edmund G. Love.  Seizure of the Gilberts and
Marshalls.  Washington, D.C.:  Office of the Chief of Military
History, Department of the Army, 1955.

Isely, Jeter A. and Philip A. Crowl.  The U.S. Marines and
Amphibious War.  Princeton, New Jersey:  Princeton University
Press, 1951.

Morison, Samuel Eliot.  History of United States Naval Operations
in World War II.  Vol. 7.  Aleutians, Gilberts and Marshalls.
Boston:  Little, Brown and Company, 1951.

Shaw, Henry I., et. al.  History of the U.S. Marine Corps
Operations in World War II.  Vol. 3.  Central Pacific Drive.
Washington, D.C.:  Government Printing Office, 1966.

Sherrod, Robert.  Tarawa:  The Story of a Battle. Fredericksburg,
Texas:  Admiral Nimitz Foundation, 1973.

Simmons, Edwin H.  The United States Marines:  The First Two
Hundred Years.  New York:  The Viking Press, Inc., 1974.

Research for this fact sheet was also provided by
Alexander Molnar
U.S. Marine Corps/U.S. Army (Ret.).


PEARL HARBOR HERO DIES AT TARAWA (SIDEBAR)

     Messman 2nd Class Doris Miller, a black mess attendant
serving on board the battleship West Virginia at the outbreak of
the war with Japan, was one of the Navy~s first World War II
heroes.

     On the morning of Dec. 7, 1941, West Virginia was moored at
Pearl Harbor when the Japanese attacked.  The ship was bombed and
torpedoed, and finally sunk.  Miller came up from the mess deck
to take his battle station on the signal bridge.  Helping to move
the injured, he found and carried his mortally wounded captain,
Mervyn S. Bennion, to relative safety.  Seeing an unmanned
.50-caliber machine gun, "Dorie," who had had no training in the
gun~s operation, shot down at least two enemy planes.

     For his courageous actions at Pearl Harbor, Miller received
the Navy Cross, the Navy~s second highest award, from Admiral
Chester W. Nimitz, commander in chief of the Pacific Fleet.  He
also was meritoriously promoted one grade, to messman 1st class.

     Still a mess steward, Miller was assigned to the escort
carrier Liscome Bay during the U.S. campaign to take the Gilbert
Islands. During the Battle of Tarawa, Nov. 20-23, 1943, the
Liscome Bay was sunk by enemy torpedoes, with a loss of 645
lives.  Miller was among those lost.

     As a mess attendant, Miller served in the only Navy rate
open to blacks at the beginning of World War II--that of steward.
(A steward served food and cleared tables.)  This was in contrast
to World War I, when blacks were eligible for all ratings.


-----------------------------------------------------------------
Navy & Marine Corps World War II Commemorative Committee
                Navy Office of Information (CHINFO)
                The Pentagon, Room 2E352
                Washington, DC   20350-1200
-----------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 18 Nov 1993 to 19 Nov 1993
*************************************************

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Status: O

There are 4 messages totalling 193 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. NAV: Battle of Tarawa
  2. Immorality of aggressive war -- at Nuremberg (??)
  3. ARCH: USN/USMC WWII Articles at byrd.
  4. Weap: Re: Long Lance Torpedo

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 20 Nov 1993 01:30:47 CST
From:    Steve Alvin <salvin@HEARTLAND.BRADLEY.EDU>
Subject: Re: NAV: Battle of Tarawa

Even today it is frightening to think about the hell of Tarawa.
The U. S. came very close to being defeated during that first
24 hours.  The crisis was definetly the first night.  The Marines
had taken horrible losses, the 2nd Battalion/2nd Marines had
taken roughly 60% casulties.  Ammunition was short and command
control was all but non-exsistant.  A strong counter attack by
the defenders might have succeded in over running the Marines.
The Japanese had approx. 600 SNLF soldiers in good control on
the Marine's east flank.  Fortunately for the Marines, the order
for the counter-attack wasn't given.  The one mistake the commander
of the garrison had made in planning the atoll's defenses was
stringing most communication lines above ground.  The naval
bombardment and air attacks severed most of these lines.  The
Marines survived the night and with the arrival of the 1/6
Marines the next day sealed the defenders' fate.

--
Steve Alvin
salvin@heartland.bradley.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 20 Nov 1993 15:58:12 +0700
From:    "Peter E. Beal" <beal@NWG.NECTEC.OR.TH>
Subject: Re: Immorality of aggressive war -- at Nuremberg (??)

On Fri, 19 Nov 1993, Lou Coatney wrote:

> John,
>
>      When the German/Nazi defendants were accused of planning/executing
> aggressive war, they broke into derisive laughter.
>
>      The Soviets had been full partners in the war-starting invasion of
> Poland in 1939, had conquered/subjugated Poland themselves in 1944-45, and
> were now sitting in prosecuting judgement of the Germans!  The abortive
> and Allies-EMBARRASSING attempt by the Soviets to blame Katyn on the Germans
> highlighted this underlying hypocrisy.
>
>      Justice and morality would have been better served by putting the
> Soviets in the dock too, possibly.  Comments?
>
> Lou Coatney, WIU
>
It was said (by whom, I do not know) that "The victors write history".
Perhaps that also means that "The victors write the judgements" as well.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 20 Nov 1993 13:29:18 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: ARCH: USN/USMC WWII Articles at byrd.

The files listed below are available by anonymous ftp from:
byrd.mu.wvnet.edu
/pub/history/military/wwii/USN_wwii

-----------------------------------------------------------------
NAVY & MARINE CORPS WORLD WAR II COMMEMORATIVE COMMITTEE
A service of Navy Chief of Information Office
(703)695-3161/DSN 225-3161
-----------------------------------------------------------------

INDEX OF WORLD WAR II FILES
(Includes subdirectory name, file name and short description of file contents.

     wwii_usn.txt   All the text files below in one file.
     wwii_usn.txt   Above file in .zip format.

News

     Taranews.txt   Nov. 20-23 is 50th anniversary of Battle for
                    Tarawa, the Japanese stronghold in the
                    Gilbert Islands.  2nd Marine Division victory
                    in the face of great odds.  At Tarawa, the
                    Navy-Marine Corps team developed the methods
                    of amphibious assault used thereafter to
                    defeat Japan.

Commemorative Events

     WW2event.txt   Lists reunions, exhibits, airshows, etc. in
                    commemoration of World War II.

Commemorative Community Program

     WhatItIs.txt   A description of the World War II
                    Commemorative Community Program and how to
                    qualify for its benefits.

     Aplicatn.txt   The form that must be completed and mailed to
                    the Navy-Marine Corps World War II
                    Commemorative Committee.

     Ideas.txt      A list (not all-inclusive) of the kinds of
                    events that qualify a group to be a
                    Commemorative Community.

Fact Sheets

     63rdBees.txt   Unit history of 63rd Seabee battalion. Served
                    at Guadalcanal and Emirau islands.

     ArmGuard.txt   Sailors assigned to man guns on merchant
                    vessels.

     Blimps.txt     Lighter-than-air contribution to anit-sub,
                    minesweeping and rescue operations.

     Bougnvil.txt   Battle of Bougainville (Nov. 1943) isolates
                    Japanese at Rabaul; wins the Solomon Islands.

     Convoys.txt    North Russia convoy runs during Battle of the
                    Atlantic. Severe weather and U-boat threats.

     CVE.txt        Escort carriers' anti-submarine missions,
                    battle group and amphibious landing support.

     Kamikaze.txt   Development and effectiveness of the Japanese
                    suicide pilot force.

     Lantbttl.txt   Battle of the Atlantic (1939-1945). U.S. and
                    Brittain beat the German U-boats.

     Magic.txt      Navy intel cracks the Japanese naval code,
                    assisting Pacific wins at Midway, Tarawa.
                    Sidebar on death of Yamamoto, due to Magic.

     MCinWW2.txt    Personnel strength, combat losses, aces,
                    weapons, boats, aircraft, events and more.

     MCLant.txt     Summary of Marine service in the Atlantic,
     (Coming Soon)  Europe and Africa.

     MCRaider.txt   Development, operations of the Marine Raider
     (Coming Soon)  battalions (special missions forces).

     MCWomen.txt    Women in the Marine Corps  -- founding,
                    rates, leaders.

     Navajos.txt    The story of Marine Navajo Code Talkers, who
                    created a code that was never broken.

     NavinWW2.txt   Overview of Navy's two-ocean victory. Info on
     (Coming Soon)  battles, hardware, personnel strength.

     Seabee.txt     History of WWII Naval Construction Battalions
                    with founding, duties, some demographics.

     Subs.txt       Exploits of "the Silent Service," conditions
                    aboard submarines, sub triumphs and losses.

     Tarawa.txt     Nov. 20-23, 1943.  2nd Div. Marines prevail
                    in the Gilbert Islands.

     V12Prgm.txt    Navy's officer training program, designed to
                    increase the ranks. Prominent participants.

     WAVES.txt      Brief history of women's service; info on
                    numbers, training, jobs, uniforms, housing.

     YamaDies.txt   Sidebar to American Magic. Navy intel causes
                    death of Japanese fleet commander Yamamoto.

JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 20 Nov 1993 13:50:28 EST
From:    Charles Reace <creace@ISD.CSC.COM>
Subject: Re: Weap: Re: Long Lance Torpedo

> QUESTION: Who gave the Long Lance its name, and why ?

Perhaps you should check British sources.  Don't forget they were involved
in the Pacific theater, especially early in the war; and they had a
penchant for nick-naming all kinds of military hardware.  (As per our
previous discussion on US tank naming.)

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <creace@isd.csc.com>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 19 Nov 1993 to 20 Nov 1993
*************************************************

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