Subject: WWII-L Digest - 6 Jan 1994 to 7 Jan 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 8 Jan 1994 00:01:29 -0500

There are 23 messages totalling 1285 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Correction on Soviet population losses
  2. CASABLANCA
  3. GEN: Charging Windmills (10)
  4. Hell's Highway, and Re: Intriguing flea market!
  5. CASABLANCA and chess
  6. The origin and hierarchy of ranks
  7. Soviet losses at end of the war (2)
  8. USAAF 4-9 JAN 44
  9. Blue Angels and Thunderbirds Schedule
 10. USAAF 4-9Jan44/ B-17 vs. B-24 question (2)
 11. General Vlasov and Prague
 12. Vlasov's fate, a source, and an Alaska application

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 08:15:12 EST
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Correction on Soviet population losses

On Thu, 6 Jan 1994 15:09:39 EST Cathy Lewis said:
>Would you all find it useful to tally up the numbers? Now that we've gotten
>this far, I would find it instructive to know exactly what magnitude we're
>talking about. With only figures on the Soviets, concentration camp victims
>and Chin a, I have a total of 62 million (77 million, if one counts the
>morerecent Soviet numbers). It there a classic article out there on this
>subject? And does anyone know what the world population was in 1939? I'll be
>keeping a tally as the numbers come in. Right now, we seem to be talking about
>5%+ of the world population dying within the period of one decade.

That percentage seems high.  World pop in 1939 has to have been over 2 billion.

ken koester
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 08:35:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: CASABLANCA

I don't want to start a fire fight here, but I tend to agree with the
noted American film critic Leonard Maltin when he says that the film
CASABLANCA is "our candidate for the best Hollywood movie of all time."
For those of you who have not seen the film, the story takes place in
Casablanca, French Morocoo during December 1941 and currency,
specifically French Francs, are mentioned numerious times in the film;
this leads to the following questions:

1. Was the same currency used in Occupied France and Vichy France
during December 1941?

2. What currency was used in the French Territories, e.g., Algeria,
French Morocco, Madagascar, etc.?

3. What was the exchange rate between US dollars and French Francs in
December 1941?

(Actually, I am trying to figure out how much Rick could have made from
selling those fictitious Letters of Transit.)

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 09:51:35 EST
From:    Doug McCabe <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: Charging Windmills

                   Ohio University Electronic Communication

   Date:  07-Jan-1994 09:51am EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"[email-masked]" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject:  Re: GEN: Charging Windmills

    Charles Reace wrote: "As I recall, the 82nd had not yet captured the
    Nijmegen bridge when 30 corps arrived, even though 30 corps gave them a
    lot of extra time to do so.  Does this constitute winning?"

    The 82nd captured the north and south entrances of the railroad and
    highway bridges on the evening of 20 September, four days after landing
    in Holland.  This was the final task assigned to the division to be
    successfully completed:  all missions assigned to the 82nd (and the
    101st) were successful and most within the time required in the
    MARKET-GARDEN plan.  It is in this sense that I mean the Americans
    "won."  That it took the 82nd "a lot of extra time" to get the bridges
    was more because the operational assignment was too ambitious for one
    lightly armed division (especially against a greater number of enemy
    than originally estimated) than because of any failure in command or
    execution by the 82nd.

    The British long made it look like they were the ones to capture the
    bridges, for the most part ignoring one of the greatest feats ever
    accomplished by a small unit action.  I am referring to the amazingly
    bold and awe-inspiring river assult made by the 3rd Bt., of the 504
    PIR, 82nd Abn. Div. on the afternoon of 20 September whereby these men
    carried canvas boats across open ground, up and over a dyke, through
    the river (approx. 200 yds wide) and over 600 yds of open ground on the
    north side and all this time under intense rifle to 88mm fire.  In the
    records I have available to me there is no question that the first
    British tank from XXX Corps was met on the north side of the highway
    bridge by Lt. Richard G. La Riviere (most often called Rivers) and his
    men.  Riviere made the highway bridge at about 1700 hrs and immediately
    cut any wires he could find.  Men of the 82nd who crossed the river and
    got the bridges then immediately fanned out into a perimeter for the
    British to use as the next jump off point for the final 8 mile drive to
    link up with the British 1st Airborne and the Polish 1st Parachute
    Brigade being slaughtered at Arnhem and Oosterbeek.  The British
    refused to immediately exploit the breakthrough.

    John Horner notes (my paraphrase) that the Soviets won (by penetrating
    deeper than they sould have been allowed and getting Berlin) because
    MARKET-GARDEN failed, what was captured could not be exploited until
    the following spring, the Dutch greatly suffered from the failed
    liberation, and the Germans had their last battle victory of the war.

    John, I'll take the easy way out on this one <what a cop-out, right?>
    by recommending you read some of the many books and articles on what
    happened in the last six months of the war in Europe and the "what
    might have been's."  <I would recommend Cornelius Ryan's _The Last
    Battle_ as one of those books.>  Then see if your conclusion is still
    the same or due some revision.

    Doug McCabe

Received:  07-Jan-1994 09:51am

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 10:15:57 EST
From:    Charles Reace <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: Charging Windmills

I did not mean to imply, if it was taken that way, that the 82nd did a
poor job, much the opposite!  I think what I was trying to say was that
it was unfair to claim the US units succeeded while implying the British
failed.  The British 1st Airborne captured the north end of the Arnhem
bridge on the first day, and held it much longer than expected.  Yes, the
82nd captured the Nijmegen bridge in a valiant assault, using boats
brought up by 30 Corps.

But I have to wonder what would have happened if things had worked for
the 82nd like the planners had (over-optimiscally) expected.  If (and
it was in retrospect a very big "if") the 82nd had been in full pos-
session of the bridge when 30 Corps arrived, *perhaps* 30 Corps could
have penetrated through to Arnhem in time to gain it as well.

But back to the original point, I only wanted to clear up the slap in
the face to the thousands who died/wounded/captured of the British 1st
airborne, who held out against unbelievable odds for a long time; and
if 30 Corps had arrived on schedule somehow . . .   Oh well, there are
few sadder phrases than "if only".

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <[email-masked]>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 09:52:14 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: Charging Windmills

In Dr. Bauer's message of  6 Jan 1994 at 2119 CST, he writes:

> But the story is hazy for me from here on.  Does anybody know the story of
> General Vlasov and how he was subsequently treated.  I understand that the
> Soviets considered him a traitor, but I don't know the story.
>
> Can anyone help me?

Hi George,

I know that General Vlasov (may have two "s"es?) commanded a Cossack
division in the Ukraine (I believe) and together with his entire
division defected to the Germans who used them as a Cavalry unit
attached to the German Army.  They sewed German national insignias
(spread winged eagle gripping a laurel wreath with a swastika inside)
on their cossack uniforms and stuck the hat insignias on their
traditional hat and off they went.

The defection came in 1941 early into the Russian campaign.  A badge
was created to commemorate the event called the "Don Cossacks Badge",
an example of which resides in my collection :-)  I also have one of
their hats with the German Army style hat eagle and national colors
"pip".

As for the Vlassov Legion and General Vlassov I know things did not
go well for them with the defeat of Germany.  They were not alone
though as there were volunteer units made up of virtually every
occupied province of Russia.  SS units were made up of volunteers
>from Latvia (2 "divisions"), Lithuania, Estonia and at least 2 from
Russia.  The Army formed many more units each of which had a sleeve
patch in their provincial colors and often heraldic symbols.

These units served all over Europe.  I think I was told that the
Vlassov Legion served in Northern Italy near Padova.  I know for a
fact that many foreign volunteers are buried at the German Army
cemetery at Costermano near lake Garda because I saw the graves
myself but I'm not sure if they are from Legion Vlassov.  I know that
some of the foreign troops buried there were killed in anti-partisan
operations in Italy during 1944-45.

Russian volunteer Army units were even used in the Normandy operation
and were manning positions on the Atlantic Wall when US troops came
ashore.  One of the books on the landings mentions coming across
troops with the "POA" patch on their sleeve which the US forces knew
to be Russian in origin.  In typical US style the troops said the
"POA" stood for "Pals Of Adolf" (I love it!).

A while back there was discussion of the Al Stewart song "Roads to
Russia" (excellent song BTW) and in the lyrics is mentioned the fate
of the soldier who's tale is being told.  He had fought from the
opening of Barbarossa to the fall of Berlin and when mustered out
they asked him about the occasion that he was taken prisoner.  He
escaped and rejoined the Russian Army fighting to the end but was
sent to a Gulag in Russia to finish his days because of Stalin's
suspicion of anyone who fell into German hands.  Stalin's own son met
a similar fate when he was captured by the Germans in the early
stages of the campaign.  The Germans thought they could ransom
Stalin's son as they had in Denmark but Stalin basically told the
Germans to go ahead and kill him.  I think he did eventually die in a
German POW camp.

Over the weekend I'll see what else I have on Vlassov but that's all I
can think of for now.

Cheers, Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 10:13:47 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hell's Highway, and Re: Intriguing flea market!

In Niek's message of  7 Jan 1994 at 0317 CST, he writes:

> Answer part 2: Bill Huber suggested a detour to the Ardennes:
> >
> > What a sweet deal.  Man.....  Yeah, if you get a chance to visit
> > Belgium and Luxembourg go see the Victory Museum near Arlon,
> > Luxembourg.  Its absolutely astonishing. (...)
> >
> Never been there, so I can't comment.

Its new.  It opened in 1991, I believe.

> > I realize these are Battle of the Bulge museums but they are the ones
> > I have been to and are excellent museums.  The town of Tongern in
> > Holland is said to be home of the largest Flea Market in Europe
> > (debatable) but some WWII items pop up there. [description of finds
> > deleted]
> >
> Mmm. Tongeren is the capital, I think, of the Belgian province Limburg.
> The Dutch provinces North- and South-Holland are a bit out of the way.
> It is however close to Maastricht in The Netherlands, a place dating
> back to Roman times. (other neat info deleted for brevity)
>
> Niek van Diepen, Nijmegen, The Netherlands ([email-masked])
> (for owners of Victory Games' Hell's Highway: I am living in the clear
> hex just west of the Maas-Waal-Canal south of the highway -- things
> have changed a bit there since 1944.)

I bow to the home court advantage.  I got lost as hell trying to find
that town so I could have been in Zaire for all I knew.  I remember
going back and forth through Belgium and Holland looking for a road
out of Brussels that was supposed to go there and ended up going via
Maastricht so I would put a lot of confidence in Mr. van Diepen's
directions.  Either way, its a beautiful area and if I were to get
lost anywhere I can't think of a better place :-)

Cheers, Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 11:17:00 +0500
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: GEN: Charging Windmills

Once more into the breach dear friends........
Doug, firstly, I totally agree about the 82nd Airborne's taking of the
Nijmegen bridge as one of the most daring and spectacular small unit actions
of the whole war.  As for who pulled the detonator wires from the bridge
approaches, I tend to agree the 82nd was responsible for it, but I like
the story of the Dutch Underground soldier Jan Van Hoof, who infiltrated
the German lines, reached the bridge and heroically cut the lines.  It's
probably not true, but a Dutch commission in 1949 concluded that he was
probably partly responsible.  Like Cornelius Ryan, I guess I go for the
romantic partisan, but your probably right.

As for the end of the war result, I still feel that had the Western
Allies been able to approach Germany without the MARKET GARDEN disaster,
the pressure would have been on Ike to keep going.  After all, the Allied
Airborne units were strongly considered for a drop on Berlin itself in
the closing phases of the war (in the event of a German collapse), so it
is not unlikely that had the western Allies been in a position to exploit
such a situation earlier (such as if they were significantly closer to
Berlin) they would have at least considered it.

As for the Ryan book "The Last Battle," I consider this, as well as "A
Bridge Too Far" and "The Longest Day" required reading for any student
of World War II.  No library is complete without them.

Thanks for the info, I would be very interested in reading your articles.
Where can I find them?  Thanks, see ya,

John Horner
SUNY at Delhi
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 16:19:03 GMT
From:    Stephen Baldwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: Charging Windmills

Re Arnhem etc, nothing to do with the tactical debate but it just reminded
me that 2nd half of 1993, the lady known as The Angel of Arnhem, can't remember
her name, but she tended many wounded/dying soldiers,
and is depicted in "A Bridge Too Far",  was tragically killed
in a road accident as she walked near her home.

smb

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 10:28:49 -0600
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: CASABLANCA and chess

In the "Evans on Chess" section of the Aug 93 CHESS LIFE & REVIEW is
  a tentative explanation of the unlikely arrangement of Rick's
  chessboard in the one scene of "Casablanca."  (It seems Bogart had
  a fondness for the game himself.)

... Chess being the "game of war," and all ....

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 16:36:43 GMT
From:    Johannes van Vuren <[email-masked]>
Subject: The origin and hierarchy of ranks

Please enlighten me on the meaning of military ranks. Im not sure I understand
how the different ranks are related. For instance, which is more senior: a
leutenant general, brigadier general or major general? What are the origins
and meaning of these terms and double names? Why are there leutenant colenells
and colenells? Why not leutenant captains as well? What is a "full" general?
Why is a field marshall called such?

Then there are exotic ranks like brigade sergent major and brevet sargent
major. What do these terms mean and how did they come about?

Perhaps one of you experts can post an essay here on the origin and evolution
of military ranks. Would be facinating to read.

Many thanks,
Johannes van Vuren,
Canterbury, England.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 12:22:43 EST
From:    Charles Reace <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Soviet losses at end of the war

> I don't have the numbers in front of me (my copy of Erickson is at home), but
> the common wisdom was that the Soviet Army suffered slightly more than half of
> its losses on the advance from Stalingrad to Berlin. It's worth noting that
> they lost two men for every German soldier killed *while advancing against the
> Germans.* As far as how many of these losses were due to actual fightingand
> how may resulted from NKVD rear guard action, that's a good question.
>
> Cathleen S. Lewis ([email-masked])

It's generally accepted that, all other things being equal, you need at
least 2 to 1 odds to be reasonably sure of success during an attack.
During Barbarossa the Germans used surprise, maneuver, and better command
control so that all other things were not equal.  But by the time the
main Soviet counter-offensives began, things were more or less equal,
though I'd still give the advantage man-for-man to the Germans.  It
therefore does not surprise me that the Soviets may have suffered 2-to-1
in losses during the advance.

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <[email-masked]>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 12:54:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: USAAF 4-9 JAN 44

                  COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
                                     4 - 9 JAN 44

FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  Beaufighter, Bristol
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-4, Lockheed Lightning
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  F-7, Consolidated Liberator
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  P-70, Douglas
  Ventura, Lockheed
  Zeke, Mitsubishi A6M

TUESDAY, 4 JANUARY 1944

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 174: 2 targets in Germany
are hit; 19 bombers and 2 fighters are lost.
  1. 371 of 439 B-17's and 115 of 130 B-24's are dispatched to the port area
at Kiel; 7 B-17's and 34 B-24's hit targets of opportunity; they claim 4-12-4
Luftwaffe aircraft; 11 B-17's and 6 B-24's are lost; 2 B-17's and 3 B-24's
are damaged beyond repair and 111 B-17's and 16 B-24's are damaged;
casualties are 22 KIA, 53 WIA and 170 MIA. 70 P-38's and 42 Ninth Air Force
P-51's escort; they claim 1-1-4 Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 P-38 and 1 P-51 are
lost and 1 P-38 is damaged beyond repair; casualties are 1 WIA and 2 MIA.
  2. 68 of 75 B-17's hit Munster; 2 B-17's are lost, 1 is damaged beyond
repair and 35 damaged; casualties are 1 WIA and 20 MIA. 430 P-47's escort;
they claim 7-0-2 Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 P-47 is damaged.
  Mission 175: During the evening, 4 B-17's drop 800,000 leaflets on Orleans,
Lorient, Rouen and Tours, France at 2005-2021 hours; no losses. This is the
first CARPETBAGGER operation from Tempsford, England on this night.
  US airplanes begin flying supplies from UK to underground resistance forces
in W Europe, this operation being coded CARPETBAGGER.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): XIX Air Support Command is activated
at Middle Wallop England with Major General Elwood R Quesada in command; XIX
will support Patton's Third Army in Europe.
  258 B-26's bomb NOBALL targets (V-weapons sites) in France. Weather makes
bombing difficult, and results range from unknown to good.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 100+ B-17's are dispatched to
bomb the Dupnica area of Bulgaria; 29 bomb the target area, but heavy cloud
cover causes 77 B-17's to return bombs to base; P-38's escort the B-17's the
total distance to and from targets; P-47's provide escort part way.
  HQ 449th Bombardment Group (Heavy) arrives at Grottaglie, Italy from the US.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Yugoslavia, B-25's bomb the
Brodac town area and marshalling yard, and the town of Travnik. P-40's hit
a bridge and trains and fly patrols over the battleline in Italy.
  Transfers in Italy:
  HQ XII Bomber Command and HQ 57th Bombardment Wing from Bari and Foggia
respectively to Trocchia.
  HQ 3d Photographic Group (Reconnaissance) and 12th Photographic
Reconnaissance Squadron from San Severo to Pomigliano with F-4's and F-5's.
  380th and 428th Bombardment Squadrons (Medium), 310th Bombardment Group
(Medium), from Philippeville, Algeria to Ghisonaccia, Corsica with B-25's.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): 18 B-24's, staging through
Tarawa Atoll, Gilbert Islands, bomb Emidj Island, Marshall Islands.
  HQ 30th Bombardment Group (Heavy) transfers from Nanumea Island, Ellice
Island to Abemama Island, Gilbert Islands.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon Islands,
B-24's bomb Sohano Island, concentrating on the seaplane base and supply
area. B-25's pound gun positions at Tonolai and bomb Chabai, Bougainville
Island. P-39's, Royal New Zealand Air Force (RNZAF) Ventura's, and night
fighters, operating individually or in small flights, hit targets on
Bougainville, including barges at Mutupina Point and along the Jaba River,
and areas around Buka, Buka Island, Bonis, Poporang Island, Papas, and Banin.
40+ Allied fighters attack the Rabaul area on New Britain Island and claim at
least 10 airplanes shot down.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 100+ heavy
and medium bombers bomb the Alexishafen, Madang, and Bogadjim  areas and hit
troops and supplies between Finschhafen and Saidor. On New Britain island,
B-25's attack artillery positions in the Cape Gloucester area.  B-24's and
B-25's hit shipping at Koepang, Timor Island and in nearby waters.
  421st Night Fighter Squadron, V Fighter Command, arrives at Milne Bay, New
Guinea from the US with P-70's; first mission is 29 Feb.

WEDNESDAY, 5 JANUARY 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 3 B-25's, supported by 8 P-38's,
attack the Mu River bridge between Monywa and Ywataung which is being
rebuilt; hits are scored on the E bank near the bridge and several sheds are
set afire; the escorting fighters damage several nearby railway cars, strafe
the nearby town, set a barge afire, blow up 4 tin buildings, and claim a
river steamer sunk.
  20th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron and 24th Combat Mapping Squadron, AAF
India-Burma Sector, arrive at Guskhara, India from the US with P-40's and
F-7's respectively; first missions are 31 Jan and in Mar 44 respectively.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): An Eighth Air Force report
concludes that the US daylight strategic bombing program against Germany will
be threatened unless steps are taken to reduce the enemy's fighter force,
which has increased in strength in the W as a result of step-up in
production, strengthening of firepower, and transfer of a larger percentage
of fighters to the Western Front.
  Mission 176: Four targets are hit costing 24 bombers and 12 fighters.
  1. 119 of 131 B-17's and 96 of 114 B-24's hit the shipyard and industrial
area at Kiel, Germany plus 10 aircraft hit targets of opportunity; they claim
41-6-13 Luftwaffe aircraft; 5 B-17's and 5 B-24's are lost, 3 B-17's and 1
B-24 are damaged beyond repair and 61 B-17's and 15 B-24's are damaged;
casualties are 36 KIA, 5 WIA and 100 MIA. This mission is escorted by 70
P-38's and 41 Ninth Air Force P-51's; they claim 22-1-8 Luftwaffe aircraft;
7 P-38's are lost; casualties are 7 MIA.
  2. 112 of 117 B-17's hit the Bordeaux/Merignac Airfield in France; they
claim 50-10-9 Luftwaffe aircraft; 11 B-17's are lost, 2 damaged beyond repair
and 49 damaged; casualties are 11 KIA, 21 WIA and 110 MIA. This mission is
escorted by 76 P-47's; they claim 2-0-1 Luftwaffe aircraft; 5 P-47's are
lost, 1 is damaged beyond repair and 1 damaged; casualties are 5 MIA.
  3. 78 of 79 B-17's hit the Tours Airfield in France; they claim 2-0-0
Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 B-17 is lost and 10 damaged; casualties are 10 MIA.
This  mission is escorted by 149 P-47's; they claim 3-0-1 Luftwaffe aircraft;
1 P-47 is damaged beyond repair and 1 damaged; no casualties.
  4. 73 of 78 hit targets of opportunity at Neuss, Geilenkirchen, Dusseldorf
and Wassenburg, Germany; they claim 2-5-2 Luftwaffe aircraft; 2 B-17's are
lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 22 damaged; casualties are 2 WIA and 20
MIA.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Transfers:
  154th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron, 68th Tactical Reconnaissance Group
(attached to Fifteenth Air Force), from Nouvion to Oran, Algeria with P-38's.
  717th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 449th Bombardment Group (Heavy), from
US to Grottaglie, Italy with B-24's; first mission is 8 Jan.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, A-36's hit gun positions
N of Mignano and on the S slope of Monte Porchia. Weather cancels other
operations.
  489th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 340th Bombardment Group (Medium),
transfers from Foggia to Pompeii, Italy with B-25's.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): B-25's bomb concentrations
in the Choiseul Bay area, New Georgia Island and Hahela Mission on S Buka
Island, while B-24's attack Tonolai, the Kahili supply area, Fauro Island,
and Poporang building area, Bougainville Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, B-24's and
medium bombers bomb the Alexishafen, Madang, and Bogadjim areas and attack
barges from Finschhafen to Saidor; and P-39's hit barges and gun positions
during a sweep from Sio to Bogadjim.

THURSDAY, 6 JANUARY 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, P-51's and A-36's carry out
ground support missions at Sumprabum and Taihpa Ga and hit a cavalry bivouac
and dumps at Kamaing; 12 P-40's attack a supply dump S of Sahmaw Junction
and strafe Pahok.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 2 B-25's bomb a troop ship on the
Yangtze River, NE of Tungting Lake; the vessel is reported as sunk.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Lieutenant General James H
Doolittle assumes command, replacing Lieutenant General Ira C Eaker who will
go to Italy as Commanding General Mediterranean Allied Air Force (MAAF).
  Mission 177: During the evening, 5 B-17's drop 984,000 leaflets on Amiens,
Lille, Valenciennes, Cambrai and Reims, France without loss.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): HQ 436th Troop Carrier Group and
79th, 80th, 81st and 82d Troop Carrier Squadrons arrive at Bottesford,
England from the US with C-47's.

  US STRATEGIC AIR FORCES IN EUROPE (USSAFE): General Carl Spaatz assumes
command and names Major Generals Frederick L Anderson and Hugh J Knerr as
Deputy Commanding Generals for operations and administration.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Control of Fifteenth Air Force
operations against targets of the Combined Bomber Offensive (CBO) is placed
under USSAFE.
  718th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 449th Bombardment Group (Heavy),
arrives at Grottaglie, Italy from the US with B-24's; first mission is 8 Jan.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-26's bomb Pontedera
hitting the marshalling yard and Piaggio aircraft factory there, the Lucca
marshalling yard, and the railway N of Follonica; P-40 and A-36 fighter-
bombers attack gun positions in the Cervaro-Monte Trocchio area and near
Aquino, the town of Cervaro, the railway at Civitavecchia, trains N and E of
Rome, the Velletri train station, and the town of Fondi.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): 78th Fighter Squadron, 15th
Fighter Group, transfers from Haleiwa Field to Stanley Field, Territory of
Hawaii with P-40's.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): P-38's sweep the Rabaul
area, New Britain Island, claiming 9 Zekes shot down during a running
battle over the Cape Gazelle area. B-25's and Royal New Zealand Air Force
(RNZAF) Ventura's bomb and strafe targets in the Choiseul Bay area, New
Georgia Island, including jetty areas and buildings at Tarekekori, targets
on Morgusaia Island, and gun positions on Kondakanimboko Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, B-24's and
B-25's bomb the Alexishafen and Bogadjim areas; A-20's attack targets along
the road from Bogadjim to Yaula; B-25's attack targets of opportunity on the
Huon Peninsula and others hit the Borgen Bay area; and P-39's strafe barges
at Borgen and Rein Bays.
  389th Bombardment Squadron (Light), 312th Bombardment Group (Light),
transfers from Port Moresby to Gusap, New Guinea with P-40's; first mission
is 14 Jan; they transition to A-20's in Feb.

FRIDAY, 7 JANUARY 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 7 B-25's and 15 P-38's pound the
Lanywa area, hitting the oil plant and storage tanks, causing several fires,
and strafe several AA positions; 19 A-36's and P-51's bomb supply and troop
concentrations at Nanyaseik.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 4 B-25's and 6 P-40's sink 2 large
boats on the Yangtze River S of Hukow and sink a large powerboat, a barge,
and a small ore craft at Shihhweiyao; 11 P-38's claim between 30 and 40
sampans destroyed along the river from Hankow to Chiuchiang; and 2 B-25's on
a sea sweep claim a 300-ft (91 m) passenger vessel sunk S of Hong Kong.
  HQ 341st Bombardment Group (Medium) transfers from the Tenth Air Force to
the Fourteenth Air Force and moves from Kurmitola, India to Kunming, China.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 351 of 382 B-17's and 69 of 120
B-24's hit the I G Faren Industrie plant at Ludwigshafen, Germany; they claim
30-6-17 Luftwaffe aircraft; 5 B-17's and 17 B-24's are lost, 2 B-17's and 2
B-24's are damaged beyond repair and 104 B-17's and 18 B-24's are damaged;
casualties are 14 KIA, 13 WIA and 121 MIA. 71 P-38's, 463 P-47's and 37 Ninth
Air Force P-51's escort; they claim 7-0-3 Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 P-38 and 5
P-47's are lost and 1 P-47 is damaged; casualties are 6 MIA.
  Mission 179: During the evening, 5 B-17's drop 1.08 million leaflets on
Paris, Chartres, Caen and Evreux, France without loss.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 35 B-26's bomb the Cherbourg/
Maupertus Airfield. Bad weather restricts further operations.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Italy, B-17's, with P-38
escort, bomb an aircraft factory at Maribor and a torpedo factory at Fiume;
the P-38's battle a superior number of enemy fighters over the Maribor area;
3 P-38's are lost and several are missing; 4 fighters are claimed destroyed,
with 1 probably downed and 4 damaged, during the fierce half-hour fight.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25's strike Perugia
Airfield; A-20's hit defenses in close support of the US Fifth Army; B-26's
hit the marshalling yards at Foligno and Arezzo and attack a bridge at
Roccasecca; A-36's hit gun positions, trucks, and trains in the Cervaro-
Aquino-Cassino area, bomb the Aquino station, and hit the Velletri railway
yards; P-40's give close support in the Monte Maio, Monte La Chiaia, Monte
Porchia, and Cedro Hill areas as the US Fifth Army drives toward the Rapido
River.
  Air echelon of the 417th Night Fighter Squadron, Twelfth Air Force,
transfers from Tafaraoui to La Senia, Algeria with Beaufighters; ground
echelon is at Ghisonaccia, Corsica.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): Major General Hubert R
Harmon becomes Commanding General. 8 squadrons of Allied fighters support US
Navy (USN) dive bombers in an attack on the Cape Saint George area, New
Ireland Island. B-24's bomb Vunakanau Airfield, New Britain Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, B-24's,
B-25's, P-39's, and P-47's bomb the Alexishafen-Madang area, hit Erima,
Bogadjim, and targets along the Bogadjim Road, attack positions from Weber
Point to Vincke Point, and strafe huts and barges near Sidor. On New Britain
Island, B-24's bomb the Cape Gloucester area and A-20's hit forces near
Arawe. B-24's also hit Lorengau, Manus Island and Boela, Ceram Island.

SATURDAY, 8 JANUARY 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 20 P-51's and A-36's knock out a
bridge N of Hopin, destroy a warehouse and railroad tracks in the area, and
destroy a locomotive and damage numerous railroad cars at Tigyaingza.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 22d Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 341st
Bombardment Group (Medium), transfers from Chakulia, India to Yangkai, China
with B-25's.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 180: During the evening,
5 B-17's drop 2.292 million leaflets on Antwerp and Brussels, Belgium; and
Rennes, Brest and Nantes, France without loss.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 449th and and 450th Bombardment
Groups (Heavy) with B-24's become operational, giving the Fifteenth a total
of 8 heavy bomber groups.
  B-24's bomb the airfield at Mostar, Yugoslavia. B-17's hit the Reggio
Emilia aircraft factory; P-38's and P-47's fly escort.
  HQ 1st Fighter Group and 27th and 94th Fighter Squadrons transfer from
Gioia del Colle to Salsola Airfield, Italy with P-38's.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): B-25's bomb the harbor,
warehouses, and railway at Metkovic, Yugoslavia. In Italy, A-20's hit railway
stations at Frosinone and in the Colleferro-Segni area; B-26's bomb
marshalling yards at Grosseto and Lucca; P-40's support the US Fifth Army in
the mountains E and SE of Cassino, and, with A-36's, hit railway targets S of
Rome at Aquino, Frosinone, Palestrina and Castelforte; other P-40's hit
Avezzano, and A-36's blast trains and vessels in the vicinity of Tarquinia.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): 15 B-24's, staging through
Tarawa Atoll, Gilbert Islands, bomb shipping and shore installations at
several locations on Wotje, Maloelap and Jaluit Atolls, Marshall Islands; and
2 B-25's from Tarawa hit shipping and gun positions on Jaluit.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon Islands,
B-24's bomb Kahili, Bougainville Island; and B-25's hit concentrations on
Siposai and Kondakanimboko Islands.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, B-24's, medium
bombers, and a few fighters, attack the Madang area, bomb Uligan Harbor, and
hit Bogadjim and the Bogadjim Road. On New Britain Island, fighters strafe
the Sag Sag sawmill in the Cape Gloucester area and B-25's and A-20's hit
positions near Arawe. B-24's bomb Kendari and other targets on Celebes
Island.

SUNDAY, 9 JANUARY 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): 21 P-51's and A-36's attack the Loilaw,
Burma area, severely damaging a bridge, hitting an ammunition storage
building, and scoring direct hits on large barracks.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 9 fighters strafe 6 steamboats and
many smaller craft on the Yangtze River at Puchi; 2 B-25's on a sea sweep
bomb a 200-ft (61 m) vessel S of Swatow, reporting the ship destroyed. 8
fighter-bombers hit Sadon, Burma and in French Indochina, 4 bomb the Atson
railroad yards and Lao Kay railroad station.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO): Prime Minister Winston S Churchill
and General Charles A De Gaulle meet at Marrakesh, French Morocco. They
discuss cooperation of a French expeditionary force in invasion of Europe and
the degree of authority of the French inside France after the invasion.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): B-17's hit the docks and
shipping at Pola, Yugoslavia.
  71st Fighter Squadron, 1st Fighter Group, transfers from Gioia del Colle to
Salsola Airfield, Italy with P-38's.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25's attack the
marshalling yard and docks at Ancona; P-40's hit tanks and trucks at Palena
and S of Sulmona, and positions and vehicles near Cervaro; and A-36's hit
positions in the same area.
  414th Night Fighter Squadron, 63d Fighter Wing, based at Elmas, Sardinia
with Beaufighters, sends a detachment to operate from Ghisonaccia, Corsica.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon Islands,
B-25's hit Buka seaplane base on Buka Island and the Kahili supply area on
Bougainville; fighters strafe the Cape Dunganon area and along the Ramusian
River W of Teop. On New Britain Island, 7 squadrons of Allied fighters cover
a USN dive bomber strike on Tobera; 2 squadrons of B-24's pound Vunakanau
Airfield. 6 B-25's bomb Taharai Airfield, New Ireland Island and afterwards
some hit targets of opportunity on the island.
  Transfers from Espiritu Santo, New Hebrides Islands to Munda, New Georgia
Island:
  23d and 72d Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), 5th Bombardment Group (Heavy),
with B-24's.
  371st and 372d Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), 307th Bombardment Group
(Heavy), with B-24's.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, fighters and
bombers attack Alexishafen, Madang, Bogadjim, Uligan Harbor, and the area E
of Saidor; and Cape Beechey is strafed by P-40's.
  Transfers in New Guinea:
  36th Fighter Squadron, 8th Fighter Group, from Nadzab to Finschhafen with
P-47's.
  498th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 345th Bombardment Group (Medium), from
Port Moresby to Dobodura with B-25's.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 13:25:22 -0500
From:    Kevin Kamphaus <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: Charging Windmills

Yea, could you take me along? I'll carry your bags!

Kevin Kamphaus
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 13:40:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Blue Angels and Thunderbirds Schedule

             USAF THUNDERBIRDS AND USN BLUE ANGELS SHOW SCHEDULE
                            Issue 2, 7 Jan 94

REASON FOR REISSUE:
1. Delete 14 May show at NAS LeMoore, California
2. Add 4 Jun show at Myrtle Beach, South Carolina
3. Add 7 Aug show at Eielson AFB, Alaska
4. Change show at Kadena AB, Okinawa from 14 Aug to 15 Aug
5. Change Thailand show from 18 Aug to 17 Aug
6. Change Singapore show from 23 to 19 Aug
7. Change Malaysia show from 20 Aug to 21 Aug
8. Add show at Andersen AFB, Guam on 23 Aug.

I. CANADA
---------

II. UNITED STATES
-----------------

ALASKA
------
Eielson AFB: USAF Thunderbirds, 7 Aug
Elmendorf AFB: USAF Thunderbirds 6 Aug

ARIZONA
-------
Glendale: USAF Thunderbirds, 5-6 Nov
Mesa: USAF Thunderbirds, 19-20 Mar

CALIFORNIA
----------
Castle AFB: USAF Thunderbirds, 9 Oct
NAS Lemoore: USAF Thunderbirds, 15 May
Redding: USAF Thunderbirds, 25-26 Jun
Travis AFB: USAF Thunderbirds, 8 Oct

COLORADO
--------
Air Force Academy, Colorado Springs: USAF Thunderbirds, 1 Jun
Broomfield: USAF Thunderbirds, 30-31 Jul

DELAWARE
--------
Dover AFB: USAF Thunderbirds, 7-8 May

FLORIDA
-------
MacDill AFB: USAF Thunderbirds, 22-27 Mar
Sanford: USAF Thunderbirds, 29-30 Oct
Tyndall AFB: USAF Thunderbirds, 16 Apr

GEORGIA
-------
Robins AFB: USAF Thunderbirds, 22-23 Oct

HAWAII
------
NAS Barbers Point: USAF Thunderbirds, 27 Aug

KENTUCKY
--------
Bowling Green: USAF Thunderbirds, 24-25 Sep

LOUISIANA
---------
Barksdale AFB: USAF Thunderbirds, 17 Apr
Lake Charles: USAF Thunderbirds, 12-13 Nov

MASSACHUSETTS
-------------
NAS South Weymouth: USAF Thunderbirds, 11-12 Jun

MICHIGAN
--------
Battle Creek: USAF Thunderbirds, 4 Jul
K.I. Sawyer AFB: USAF Thunderbirds, 2 Jul

NEVADA
------
Nellis AFB: USAF Thunderbirds, 20 Nov

NEW YORK
--------
Scotia: USAF Thunderbirds, 10-11 Sep

NORTH CAROLINA
--------------
Wilmington: USAF Thunderbirds, 9-10 Apr

OHIO
----
Dayton: USAF Thunderbirds, 23-24 Jul

OKLAHOMA
--------
Muskogee: USAF Thunderbirds, 1-2 Oct

OREGON
------
Portland: USAF Thunderbirds, 16-17 Jul

PENNSYLVANIA
------------
Avoca: USAF Thunderbirds, 28-29 May
Latrobe: USAF Thunderbirds, 3-4 Sep
NAS Willow Grove: USAF Thunderbirds, 18-19 Jun

SOUTH CAROLINA
--------------
McEntire ANGB: USAF Thunderbirds, 1 May
Myrtle Beach: USAF Thunderbirds, 4-5 Jun
Shaw AFB: USAF Thunderbirds, 30 Apr

TEXAS
-----
Goodfellow AFB: USAF Thunderbirds, 22 May
Houston: USAF Thunderbirds, 15-16 Oct
Kelly AFB: USAF Thunderbirds, 21 May
Laughlin AFB: USAF Thunderbirds, 18 Sep
Sheppard AFB: USAF Thunderbirds, 17 Sep

VIRGINIA
--------
NAS Norfolk: USAF Thunderbirds, 23-24 Apr

WYOMING
-------
F.E. Warren AFB: USAF Thunderbirds, 27 Jul

III. ALL OTHER COUNTRIES
------------------------
GUAM
----
Andersen AB: USAF Thunderbirds, 23 Aug

JAPAN
------
Kadena AB (Okinawa): USAF Thunderbirds, 15 Aug
Misawa: USAF Thunderbirds, 10 Aug

KOREA
-----
Osan AB: USAF Thunderbirds, 13 Aug

MALAYSIA
--------
??: USAF Thunderbirds, 21 Aug

SINGAPORE
---------
Singaport: USAF Thunderbirds, 19 Aug

THAILAND
--------
Bangkok: USAF Thunderbirds, 17 Aug

########################3

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 8 Jan 1994 02:03:51 +0700
From:    "Peter E. Beal" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: Charging Windmills

On Fri, 7 Jan 1994, WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR wrote:

> In Dr. Bauer's message of  6 Jan 1994 at 2119 CST, he writes:
>
> > But the story is hazy for me from here on.  Does anybody know the story of
> > General Vlasov and how he was subsequently treated.  I understand that the
> > Soviets considered him a traitor, but I don't know the story.
> >
> > Can anyone help me?

Sorry to disagree with Mr. Huber, especially when I do not have all my
sources to hand but....

Vlasov was a highly decorated Russian general.  His unit (I don't recall
the size) was surrounded in northern Russia (around Demyansk?) in the
late summer/fall of 1941.  Eventually he went over to the Germans but was
not taken seriously until the manpower situation got serious for the Germans.
His "army" was to have four divisions but only two were fully organized
and two were in cadre form by the end of the war.  The only action they
saw was when, in later April/early May, 1945 they turned against the
Germans and threw them out of Prague.   I don't recall what happened to
Vlasov but I think it is safe to assume that he was killed by the Russians.

The other units mentioned were individual battalions of Ukrainians and
other minorities which were attached (generally to static) divisions of
the German Army.  And, as you mentioned, there were SS divisions composed
of various national groups.  There was also an Indian Legion. But that's
another story.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 14:11:32 -0600
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: USAAF 4-9Jan44/ B-17 vs. B-24 question

Con Crane,

     I notice in the raid on Kiel that although B-17s outnumbered
B-24s more than 3:1, losses were less than 2:1.

     While I realize that some squadrons would be hit hard while
others completely missed,

     Would it be a fair generalization to say that the B-24 was
more efficient in payload/range/etc., while the B-17 was more
flyable/survivable?  (Those thin, tapering wings on the -24
always raised my suspicions.)

Lou Coatney, WIU

     Input from everyone is welcome.  Bob Granvin, are you (still)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 14:18:33 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <[email-masked]>
Subject: General Vlasov and Prague

I just read Peter Beal's message about General Vlasov and Prague which
seems to support my idea that the General (Ukranian and not Red Army,
as I remember) fought with the Czechs in driving the Germans from Prague
prior to the arrival of the Red Army racing from Berlin.

But I do not know what happened to General Vlasov after May 9, 1945.
That is my real question.

Can anybody cite a reference dealing with the liberation of Prague?
Names, units, action, casualties, maybe photos.  etc..

Thanks.

  =========================================================================
  | DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
  |                                  | Computers in Business & Education. |
  | Recently returned from my second | Education:  Curriculum development.|
  |   extended stay in Prague.       |    International Education, TEFL.  |
  |                                  | Central Europe:  Post revolution   |
  | Working on second book about     |    economic, social, political     |
  |   Prague and new Czech Republic. |    problems and opportunities.     |
  | E-Mail:                          | Free lance writing and editing.    |
  |   USA:  [email-masked]    | Stamp collecting.                  |
  =========================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 15:34:44 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Soviet losses at end of the war

>
>It's generally accepted that, all other things being equal, you need at
>least 2 to 1 odds to be reasonably sure of success during an attack.
>During Barbarossa the Germans used surprise, maneuver, and better command
>control so that all other things were not equal.  But by the time the
>main Soviet counter-offensives began, things were more or less equal,
>though I'd still give the advantage man-for-man to the Germans.  It
>therefore does not surprise me that the Soviets may have suffered 2-to-1
>in losses during the advance.
>
>  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <[email-masked]>
>_|   _|   _|     |
> |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
> ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057
>

Charles,
     The generally accepted figure is 3-1 for success in the offensive, and
though the Russians had the Germans heavily outnumbered, I don't think the odds
for the whole Eastern Front got that bad until near the end.

                                                LTC Con Crane
                                                USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 14:40:40 CST
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: Charging Windmills

> Yea, could you take me along? I'll carry your bags!

Although it's an extreme longshot at this point, Operation Market Garden
is also looking for some U.S. based WWII aircraft to participate.  The
discussion has been brought to us whether it would be technically and
financially feasible to bring Miss Mitchell (B-25) to Holland for the
event, along with some other aircraft I'm not at liberty to discuss.

If that were to ever happen, I'm sure we could carry some luggage.  For
an appropriate donation, of course.  :-)

(Your luggage would never get lost ... But it may not survive the impact
when released from 11,000 feet... :-)

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
[email-masked]                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 15:47:13 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: Charging Windmills

>I am very interested in the conversation about Prague and Berlin, and how
>the Russians and the United States ended up where they did.
>
>As I remember my history, Roosevelt, Stalin, and Churchill agreed to give
>to Stalin the right to enter PRague first.  In fact, according to one of
>my Czech friends, he told me that General Patton (or possibly a member
>of his unit) entered Prague and offered to come in if he got an invitation.
>But he was not asked.  As a result, hundreds of Czechs were killed as
>they resisted the Germans until General Vlasov entered the city.
>
>But the story is hazy for me from here on.  Does anybody know the story of
>General Vlasov and how he was subsequently treated.  I understand that the
>Soviets considered him a traitor, but I don't know the story.
>
>Can anyone help me?
>
>
>  =========================================================================
>  | DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
>  |
George,
     Look at David Eisenhower's EISNHOWER AT WAR.  It covers the dispute over
Prague pretty well.  Ike actually offered the Russians help from the Third Army
to take Prague, but they refused.  When partisans revolted there in May, they
radioed appeals for Allied aid which Patton received.  He was restrained by
Bradley and Eisenhower, and fumed about it considerably.
                                                       LTC Con Crane
                                                       USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 14:22:45 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: Charging Windmills

Are you saying that Vlasov went over to the Germans in 1941 and only
turned to fight them in May of 1945 by helping the Czechs liberate Prague?
If so, how did he get to PRague?  Did he also help liberate Slovakia?
Did he come from the east (Ukraine, Olomouc, etc)?  I seem to remember
reading someplace that the Russian army was in Olomouc when Patton
was in Plzen, but it was finally the Red Army racing from BErlin that
actually "liberated" Prague.

Any sources anyone can recomment?

Thanks

  =========================================================================
  | DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
  |                                  | Computers in Business & Education. |
  | Recently returned from my second | Education:  Curriculum development.|
  |   extended stay in Prague.       |    International Education, TEFL.  |
  |                                  | Central Europe:  Post revolution   |
  | Working on second book about     |    economic, social, political     |
  |   Prague and new Czech Republic. |    problems and opportunities.     |
  | E-Mail:                          | Free lance writing and editing.    |
  |   USA:  [email-masked]    | Stamp collecting.                  |
  =========================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 15:00:56 -0600
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Vlasov's fate, a source, and an Alaska application

I believe it was the Americans -- us -- who turned Vlasov over to the
  Soviets at the end of the war (to be tried(, tortured,) and hanged
  in the basement of the Lubyanka as a traitor).

Check the book AGAINST STALIN AND HITLER by the (political) SS
  officer attached to Vlasov's outfit.

At an appropriate moment, during our private/confrontational
  breakfast in Juneau Alaska in Spring 1986, I told Gennadi Gerasimov
  that
       While there were many aspects of the Soviet system that I
  respected and even admired, until Alaska DID become the Russian-
  American Soviet Socialists Republic,  I was NO "Vlasovite."  (i.e.,
  traitor to my country, for whatever reason.)

He was suitably startled and reflective at that.

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 16:17:29 CST
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: USAAF 4-9Jan44/ B-17 vs. B-24 question

> Con Crane,
>
>      I notice in the raid on Kiel that although B-17s outnumbered
> B-24s more than 3:1, losses were less than 2:1.
>
>      While I realize that some squadrons would be hit hard while
> others completely missed,
>
>      Would it be a fair generalization to say that the B-24 was
> more efficient in payload/range/etc., while the B-17 was more
> flyable/survivable?  (Those thin, tapering wings on the -24
> always raised my suspicions.)

Basically, I'd agree with this.  (Of course, if you come to the Twin
Cities in August, we'll have both on display side by side... :-)

The B-24 was known to many as the flying coffin.  It could carry a larger
payload farther, but was far less able to sustain damage.  Even though it
came into service much later than the B-17, there were some 25,000 B-24s
built compared to 12,731 B-17s.  Not all of that had to do with the
replacement of an outdated aircraft (since the B-17 lasted for a long,
long time after the war).

Although the argument is still raging which is the better airplane, if
I had to sit through 24 missions, I would choose the B-17.  Although a
bit slower, less comfortable, smaller payload and with a bit lower
maximum ceiling (If I remember correctly), and harder to fly, I'd still
rather be with an airplane that can take a real serious pounding and
still come home.

(The B-17 was designed in such a way that any and every rib, spar and
joint could be completely shot away -- its neighboring components had
the strength to take up the slack.  This literally meant that half the
structural integrity of the aircraft could be lost and still fly.)

All these things led to an excellent survival rate of the B-17 compared
to many other aircraft, the B-24 included.

> Lou Coatney, WIU
>
>      Input from everyone is welcome.  Bob Granvin, are you (still)

No.  I'm quite mobile.  :-)

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
[email-masked]                                       Confederate Air Force

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End of WWII-L Digest - 6 Jan 1994 to 7 Jan 1994
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