Subject: WWII-L Digest - 26 Jan 1994 to 27 Jan 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 1994 00:01:06 -0500

There are 28 messages totalling 894 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. USAAF 27 JAN 44
  2. First Raid On Germany (2)
  3. Re[2]: WW II massacres (6)
  4. bullet speed
  5. Investigating massacres
  6. <No subject given>
  7. WW II massacres (6)
  8. CODEBREAKING
  9. Russian Military Museums (2)
 10. Snipers not protected by Rules of War?
 11. POWs
 12. MEDIA: World War II Lecture Series
 13. Re[2]: WWII massacres
 14. FW-190 Upward firing weapons, again :)
 15. War criminal ... or unprofessional?  :-)
 16. Re[2]: WW II mas...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 Jan 1994 07:11:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: USAAF 27 JAN 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
THURSDAY, 27 JANUARY 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-24, Douglas Dauntless
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 194: 5 of 5 B-17's drop
1.44 million leaflets on Paris, Rennes, Le Mans and Orleans, France without
loss.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 572d Bombardment Squadron (Medium),
391st Bombardment Group (Medium), arrives at Matching, England from the US
with B-26's; first mission is 15 Feb.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In France, B-17's bomb
airfields at Salon-de-Provence and Montpellier-Frejorgues; B-24's hit Istres-
Le-Tube Airfield; P-38's fly escort. In Italy, other P-38's sweep the Rome
area, and P-47's sweep the Florence area. The heavy bombers and fighter
escorts claim 20+ aircraft shot down.
  Transfers in Italy: HQ 306th Bombardment Wing (Heavy) from Bari to Foggia;
744th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 456th Bombardment Group (Heavy), from
Cerignola to Stornara with B-24's.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25's attack roads at
Velletri, the railway at Colleferro and marshalling yard at Orte; B-26's bomb
bridges at Ceprano and marshalling yard at Terni; A-20's give close support
to the US Fifth Army attack near Terelle; A-36's bomb railways and buildings
at Poggio Mirteto, Ceccano, and Ciampino, hit rail and road traffic S of
Rome, and, with P-40's, hit the town of Piedimonte; 70+ P-40's provide close
support to Fifth Army forces in Cisterna di Latina and Atina, bombing gun
positions; Allied fighters over the Anzio beachhead successfully meet
increased enemy air effort, claiming 28 aircraft downed in aerial combat.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): In the Gilbert Islands, 6 B-25's
from Tarawa Atoll hit Nauru Island, and 9 staging through Makin Island hit
Wotje Atoll, Marshall Islands; 23 A-24's, supported by 10 P-39's, pound Mille
Atoll, Marshall Islands; and 7 B-24's, staging through Makin Island, bomb
Taroa Island in Maloelap Atoll, Marshall Islands, in a dusk attack.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): 19 B-25's, with and escort
of 60+ US Army Air Forces (USAAF) and US Navy (USN) fighters, pound Lakunai
airfield, New Britain Island; 6 US fighters are lost; US aircraft claim
20+ Japanese fighters shot down. On Bougainville Island, P-39's ranging over
a wide area, strafe targets of opportunity at Motupena, Gazelle Harbor, and
Buka Island. 2 squadrons of B-24's blast concentrations at Sulphur Creek in
the Rabaul area of New Britain Island.
  72d Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 5th Bombardment Group (Heavy), based at
Munda, New Georgia Island ceases operating from Guadalcanal Island with
B-24's.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): 41 B-24's bomb Lorengau,
Manus Island. Almost 70 B-25's, A-20's, and P-39's, along with several Royal
Australian Air Force (RAAF) aircraft attack the Madang and Bogia areas of New
Guinea. B-24's hit a freighter and the town area at Dili, Timor Island, and
shipping at Sorong and MacCluer Gulf.
  39th Fighter Squadron, 35th Fighter Group, transfers from Nadzab to Gusap,
New Guinea with P-47's.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 Jan 1994 07:19:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: First Raid On Germany

On 17 Jan 94, George Bauer asked for details about the first Eighth Air
Force raid on Germany.  Well George, between trying to stay warm, shoveling
snow, chopping ice (and then resting my back), I have not had a chance to
respond.  It snowed last night, it was -1 degree F (-18C) this morning, and
we are expecting a rain/sleet/ice storm tonight and another on Sunday,
so I figured I had better get to it or you will not hear anything until
July.  (Does anyone in the southern or SW part of the US or Australia need
a couple of house guests for the next 2-3 months???)

As early as Nov 42, plans had been made to bomb Germany.  At the Casablanca
Conference in Nov 42, it had been decided to concentrate daylight
bombardment as far as practicable on objectives in the Reich.  The top
priority targets were submarine building yards and on 27 Jan 43, a Field
Order was cut for VIII Bomber Command Mission 31; the primary target was
the U-boat yards at Vegesack on the Waser River approximately 30 miles (48
km) from its North Sea estuary.

The 1st Bombardment Wing dispatched 64 B-17's and the 2d Bombardment Wing
dispatched 27 B-24's.  (A complete list of groups and their activities is
listed below.)  Leading the mission was Colonel Frank A. Armstrong, Jr.
Group Commander of the 306th Bombardment Group (Heavy).  Armstrong had also
flown in the lead aircraft on the first B-17 mission to Rouen, France in
Aug 42.  A circuitous route over the North Sea was chosen to skirt the
enemy coast and minimize the chance of interception by Luftwaffe fighters.
After turning towards Germany and climbing to 25,000 feet (7,620 m),
weather conditions began to deteriorate and by the time the coast was
reached, it became evident that they could not hit the primary target and
the bombers turned towards the secondary target, the port area of
Wilhelmshaven.  Thin veiled clouds were found over Wilhelmshaven and the
first B-17's dropped their bombs at 1110 hours local.  Due to the weather
and poor navigation, the B-24's never found the target and returned to base
without bombing anything.  Fifty three B-17's hit Wilhelmshaven and two hit
Emden as a target of opportunity on the return flight.  German opposition
was surprisingly ineffective; flak was light and inaccurate and an RAF
observer who flew in one of the B-17's called it "pathetic."  The estimated
50-75 Luftwaffe fighters (Bf 109's, Fw 190's and twin-engine fighters) did
not show the skill and determination of Luftwaffe fighter units in France
however, they did account for 1 B-17 and 2 B-24's; the bomber gunners
claimed 22-14-13 Luftwaffe aircraft but in reality, the real totals were
something like 7-2-1.

Overall totals were:
  137.5 tons of bombs dropped
  Enemy aircraft claimed: 22-14-13
  Losses: 2 B-24's and 1 B-17
  Damaged: 32 B-17's and 11 B-24's
  Casualties: 2 KIA, 3 WIA and 30 MIA

Units participating were:

A. 1st Bombardment Wing, i.e., B-17 units

   1. 91st Bombardment Group (Heavy) at Bassingbourn, Colonel Stanley T.
Wray commanding.  14 of 19 B-17's dispatched bombed Wilhelmshaven and 2
bombed Emden on the return trip; seventy 1,000 pound (454 kg) GP bombs were
dropped on the two targets, Wilhelmshaven at 1110 hours and Emden at 1135
hours.  They claimed 3-3-0 Luftwaffe aircraft; 16 B-17's were damaged; no
losses or casualties.

   2. 303d Bombardment Group (Heavy) at Molesworth, Colonel James H.
Wallace commanding.  8 of 11 B-17's dispatched dropped forty 1,000 pound
(454 kg) GP bombs at 1113 hours.  They claimed 1-0-1 Luftwaffe aircraft; 1
B-17 was damaged; casualties were 1 WIA.

   3. 305th Bombardment Group (Heavy) at Chelveston, Colonel Curtis Emerson
LeMay commanding.  17 of 18 B-17's dispatched dropped eighty five 1,000
pound (454 kg) GP bombs at 1112 hours.  They claimed 6-3-6 Luftwaffe
aircraft; 1 B-17 was lost and 4 damaged; casualties were 10 MIA.

   4. 306th Bombardment Group (Heavy) at Thurleigh, Colonel Frank A.
Armstrong, Jr. commanding.  14 of 16 B-17's dropped seventy 1,000 pound
(454 kg) GP bombs at 1110 hours.  11 B-17's were damaged; no losses or
casualties.

B. 2d Bombardment Wing, i.e., B-24 units.

   1. 44th Bombardment Group (Heavy) at Shipdham, Colonel Leon W. Johnson
commanding.  (Johnson won the Medal of Honor during the Ploesti, Rumania
raid of 1 Aug 43.)  20 B-24's dispatched but none hit the target.  They
claimed 9-5-4 Luftwaffe aircraft; 2 B-24's were lost and 9 damaged;
casualties were 2 KIA, 2 WIA and 20 MIA.

   2. 93d Bombardment Group (Heavy) at Hardwick, Lieutenant Colonel Addison
E. Baker commanding.  (Baker won the Medal of Honor during the Ploesti,
Rumania raid of 1 Aug 43.)  7 B-24's dispatched but none hit the target.
They claimed 3-3-2 Luftwaffe aircraft; 2 B-24's were damaged.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 Jan 1994 09:35:56 EST
From:    GERMAN 101/102 LAB <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re[2]: WW II massacres

Were there ever any Allied soldiers accused or convicted of war
crimes or shooting prisoners?  Several weeks ago I watched an A&E
program on the fighting n Normandy.  The narrator discussed the
shooting of prisoners by both sides.  One amazing film clip showed
two German soldiers, clearly surrendering under a white flag.  After
a few seconds they were gunned down right in front of the camera.
I understand from reading the book PATTON that a group of German POW's
from the Grossdeutschland division were gunned down after a particularly
nasty fight in Sicily.  I also remember reading that during the Dieppe
raid, the Allied soldiers were particularly vicious with a group of
French women they found convorting at a German officers' club.

It could be that the UK govt is a bit concerned that opening up
old massacre investigations, might, in this day and age of no sacred
cows, might result in a look at some of our own sins.

Dale Lally
Canton NY

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 Jan 1994 09:46:23 EST
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: bullet speed

>It looks mathematically correct, but how it really looks like? Isn't
>a bullet faster than 500 km/h? And I've got another similar situation:
>Plane goes 500 km/h, passes anti-aircraft gun, which starts shooting
>at it after 1.65 seconds. Bullets leave gun with the speed of 527 km/h.
>Will the bullets reach the plane? Will they have enough kinetic energy
>to damage it? Will anyone answer my questions?  :)
>-Irek.

2000 ft/s, the speed of a decent slug, roughly translates into 2400 km/h,
which is a bit faster that your average Focke Wolf.

-Alan...   A "Bad Attitude" is being inverted, and below the horizon.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Wild, LAN Mgr.   Nemo me impune lacessit.  Voice:          (401) 792-2611
ACC - Lippitt - URI   Father of one.            FAX:            (401) 792-5479
Kingston, RI  02881   American Legion Post 102  Internet: [email-masked]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 Jan 1994 09:44:22 -0600
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Investigating massacres

Dale,

     More recently, on VWAR-L, I suggested:

1) the U.S. Govt. appointing a commission to investigate atrocities
  by all sides in the Vietnam War.  This would serve a "confessor"
  function for vets suffering guilt, as well.

2) identifying an American officer or enlisted man who refused a
  direct order (maybe at the cost of his life) to commit an atrocity
  and seeing that he was publicly recognized and decorated for his
  other kind of courage.

     You should have seen the fireworks THAT set off.

     I have heard of an (unverified) incident where a young GI was
murdered by his sergeant for refusing to participate in the massacre
of an Okinawan village.

     AGAIN:  THIS IS UNVERIFIED, but such rumors should be
investigated and acknowledged/regretted, if they occurred.  Have you
seen the book, WAR WITHOUT MERCY?

     Akira, what do you think about this?

Lou Coatney, Western Illinois University

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 Jan 1994 09:52:00 CST
From:    NAME 'Elnora Maria Crayton' <[email-masked]>
Subject: <No subject given>

        I am a new subscriber to your discussion group and I am excited
about this opportuniity.  I was wondering if anyone we like to share
information about health issues that faced the soldiers during this era.
I was hoping to collect a list of remedies used by the troops as well
medical procedures that were popular during this period of time.
                                                    Elnora Crayton,

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 Jan 1994 11:05:01 -0500
From:    Warren Thompson <[email-masked]>
Subject: WW II massacres

The first US troops on the scene at Dachau apparently killed a high
number of SS guards AFTER they had surrendered and been collected inside
an enclosure. Apparently the unit involved was quickly removed from the area
and put back into the line on the way to Munich. As far as is known, no
charges were ever brought.

-- Warren Thompson

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 Jan 1994 11:43:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: CODEBREAKING

For those of you in the New York City metro area, the NOVA episode on
Codebreaking will be aired tonight (Thursday, Jan 27) on the Long
Island PBS station, WLIW, channel 21 between 10 and 11 PM.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 Jan 1994 12:05:24 -0500
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: WW II massacres

Just another question to add about WWII massacres.  Last night, I
happened to catch an A&E special about the battle of Kursk :-).  It was
made during the 50th anniversary of the battle.  One segment featured a
bus load of former Waffen SS men taking a tour of the old battle
grounds.  They were ask by the interviewer about any war crimes which
they may have witnessed, and they all denied ever seeing anything.  One
man said that he had been with the Waffen SS for the entire war and had
never witnessed any atrocities.  Another said that there were rumors of
concentration camps, but nobody had any solid evidence.  Anyway, the
question is, how likely is this?  Would it have been possible for anyone
to have been in the Waffen SS (Liebstandarte Adolf Hitler and Das Reich
were mentioned later) for the whole war and never see anything?  Or is
this just a case of Sgt. Schultz (I know nothing, I hear nothing, I say
nothing.)?
David Rising ([email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 Jan 1994 11:29:47 -0600
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: WW II massacres

I think I have told this story before:

     A friend of mine back in Juneau had a British father-in-law who
had been shot down in an RAF bomber and incarcerated in a Stalag
which was liberated by an American infantry platoon led by a
baby-faced lieutenant.

     The lt. told the POWs to point out the good guards and the bad
guards, and the POWs eagerly obliged (apparently expecting the bad
guards to get eternal latrine duty).

     Apparently doubting the efficacy of war crimes/atrocity trials
-- and perhaps evidencing a wisdom beyond his years, in that regard
-- the baby-faced lt. had the bad guards shot on the spot to the
absolute horror of (most of) the British POWs.

     There is a book titled OTHER LOSSES, about the indifference of
the Western Allies toward German POWs.  This attitude is entirely
understandable, considering that the Germans had started the war in
the first place and inflicted such horror and suffering on other
peoples.

     More tragic is what happened to German women and children who
fell (or were delivered) into the hands of the vengeance-obsessed
Soviets and other Eastern European peoples.

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 Jan 1994 12:37:55 PST
From:    Robert Edison <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Russian Military Museums

John,

I am curently writing a book on defecting aircraft and crews as well as aircraft that have been
shot down or forced down in 'peacetime' or in unusual circumstances.  The following is something
I recently saw that I will include in my book, but for which I have no other information as of this
time.  Desireable of course would be actual confirmation of the event, the identity of the pilots
concerned, the serial or the US aircraft, the unit of the US aircraft and any other descriptions of
the event.

An extremely unusual incident occurred on 28 November 1973, when according to Soviet
sources, a USAF RF-4 was rammed by a Soviet aircracft in Southern Russia.  The aircraft was a
GSFG aircraft of Pilot First Class Class G.N. Eliseev.  The incident was described in an exhibit at
a museum of the 20 Gv/BAP when visited in early 1993.  The practice of ramming aircraft or
taran, was practiced by the Soviet Air Forces in the early stages of World War II, and was used
as a practice of opportunity or last resort in most cases.1

1 Air International, April 1993, pp 206 - 20Gv/BAP  is the 20 Gvardeyskiy Bombardirovochnaya
aviatsionnaya polk or 20th Guards Bomber Air Regiment; Red Phoenix, 1982, pp 5, 27-30 describes the
early Soviet air tactics of taran

Bob Edison
[email-masked]

13907 Piscataway Drive
Ft. Washington, MD 20744-6639
hm 301-292-5967
wk 703-821-5724

This may me one museum you may want to put on your list.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 Jan 1994 12:51:55 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: WW II massacres

>Were there ever any Allied soldiers accused or convicted of war
>crimes or shooting prisoners?  Several weeks ago I watched an A&E
>program on the fighting n Normandy.  The narrator discussed the
>shooting of prisoners by both sides.  One amazing film clip showed
>two German soldiers, clearly surrendering under a white flag.  After
>a few seconds they were gunned down right in front of the camera.
>I understand from reading the book PATTON that a group of German POW's
>from the Grossdeutschland division were gunned down after a particularly
>nasty fight in Sicily.  I also remember reading that during the Dieppe
>raid, the Allied soldiers were particularly vicious with a group of
>French women they found convorting at a German officers' club.
>
>It could be that the UK govt is a bit concerned that opening up
>old massacre investigations, might, in this day and age of no sacred
>cows, might result in a look at some of our own sins.
>
>Dale Lally
>Canton NY
>

Dale,
     The Patton incident you mention happened at Biscari on Sicily.  Sergeant
Horace West was convicted of killing 37 prisoners and sentenced to life in
prison.  Captain John Compton was also tried for killing 40 more prisoners, but
he was acquitted by convincing the court that Patton's speeches advocated the
killing of prisoners.  That's what got Patton into trouble.  An IG inspection
pursued him through April 1944. Though he defended himself well, the issue of
Biscari  and further impolitic remarks at Knutsford, England almost got him
sent home.  West was eventually restored to duty as a private in Nov 1944 with
the rest of his sentence remitted.
                                                           LTC Con Crane
                                                           USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 Jan 1994 12:55:48 PST
From:    Robert Edison <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Russian Military Museums

Sorry about the initial post - here is a better version.

  I am curently writing a book on defecting aircraft
  and crews as well as aircraft that have been shot
  down or forced down in 'peacetime' or in unusual
  circumstances.  The following is something I
  recently saw that I will include in my book, but
  for which I have no other information as of this
  time.  Desireable of course would be actual
  confirmation of the event, the identity of the
  pilots concerned, the serial or the US aircraft,
  the unit of the US aircraft and any other
  descriptions of the event.

  An extremely unusual incident occurred on 28
  November 1973, when according to Soviet sources, a
  USAF RF-4 was rammed by a Soviet aircracft in
  Southern Russia.  The aircraft was a GSFG aircraft
  of Pilot First Class Class G.N. Eliseev.  The
  incident was described in an exhibit at a museum
  of the 20 Gv/BAP when visited in early 1993.  The
  practice of ramming aircraft or taran, was
  practiced by the Soviet Air Forces in the early
  stages of World War II, and was used as a practice
  of opportunity or last resort in most cases.1

  1 Air International, April 1993, pp 206 - 20Gv/BAP
  is the 20 Gvardeyskiy Bombardirovochnaya
  aviatsionnaya polk or 20th Guards Bomber Air
  Regiment; Red Phoenix, 1982, pp 5, 27-30 describes
  the early Soviet air tactics of taran

  Bob Edison
  [email-masked]

  13907 Piscataway Drive
  Ft. Washington, MD 20744-6639
  hm 301-292-5967
  wk 703-821-5724

This may be an interesting museum to visit.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 Jan 1994 09:24:43 -0800
From:    "Jackson, Christopher R. UC Davis" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: WW II massacres

The most prominent Allied massacre might be the Katyn Forest massacre; or
were those guys not "Allies" yet?
Seriously you might be interested in a quirky but interesting book on the
investigation of war crimes committed by the Allies; the Wehrmacht War
Crimes Bureau, 1939-1945 by Alfred M. de Zayas investigates a whole
variety of massacres committed by Allied soldiers against the Germans.
University of Nebraska Press, 1989 (orig. published in Germany, 1979,
though the author is an American attorney).

Christopher R. Jackson, UC Davis

On Thu, 27 Jan 1994, GERMAN 101/102 LAB wrote:

> Were there ever any Allied soldiers accused or convicted of war
> crimes or shooting prisoners?  Several weeks ago I watched an A&E
> program on the fighting n Normandy.  The narrator discussed the
> shooting of prisoners by both sides.  One amazing film clip showed
> two German soldiers, clearly surrendering under a white flag.  After
> a few seconds they were gunned down right in front of the camera.
> I understand from reading the book PATTON that a group of German POW's
> from the Grossdeutschland division were gunned down after a particularly
> nasty fight in Sicily.  I also remember reading that during the Dieppe
> raid, the Allied soldiers were particularly vicious with a group of
> French women they found convorting at a German officers' club.
>
> It could be that the UK govt is a bit concerned that opening up
> old massacre investigations, might, in this day and age of no sacred
> cows, might result in a look at some of our own sins.
>
> Dale Lally
> Canton NY
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 Jan 1994 13:29:01 EST
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: WW II massacres

>shooting of prisoners by both sides.  One amazing film clip showed
>two German soldiers, clearly surrendering under a white flag.  After
>a few seconds they were gunned down right in front of the camera.

I happened to be watching this show too and I remember just before they
showed the clip, the narrator (I can't remember if the narrator was a
G.I.) claiming that German snipers were very unsuccesful in surrendering
to G.I.s.  There was an unspoken G.I.s policy of making sure that
German snipers were delt with in a terminal manner.

Ron Babuka

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 Jan 1994 13:49:25 EST
From:    Charles Reace <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WW II massacres

I think we need to be careful in this thread not to equate all so called
"massacres" together.  At one end of this ugly spectrum we have the
shooting of surrenderers and other non-combatants perpetrated by assaulting
troops during combat.  This is not particularly uncommon, as once the
"blood lust" (that the DI's cultivated in boot camp) is on, it's not always
easy to turn it off instantly.  This is why many experienced soldiers
who are being overrun will hide if possible, waiting to surrender to the
follow-on troops.

If you equate the above to 3rd degree murder, then 2nd degree murder might
be when troops, incited by real or perceived evil/wrongdoing of the enemy,
conciously perpetrate a massacre in the heat of anger, such as the shooting
of prisoners after their surrender had been accepted, or the torching of
an occupied town.

But worst by far (IMHO) and, to continue the comparison, equatable with
first degree murder, are the cold-blooded killings which require time
and planning; such as the Germans' executions of the politically/ethnically
incorrect, the Bataan death march, Katyn, etc.

While the US, British, and other allies were certainly guilty of 3rd and
2nd degree "massacres", I have yet to read of a 1st degree one by them
(excluding the Soviets); though on second thought I suppose the residents
of Hamburg, Tokyo, Dresden, Hiroshima, etc. would disagree.  Ah well, I
guess war is an ugly state of affairs that brings out the best in great
people and the worst in horrible people.  B^(

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <[email-masked]>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 Jan 1994 13:20:10 -0600
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Snipers not protected by Rules of War?

An anti-sniper attitude is presented in the film "Sniper."  It
  seemed to me to be quite good.

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 Jan 1994 14:48:30 -0500
From:    Warren Thompson <[email-masked]>
Subject: WW II massacres

How likely is it that former members of either LAH or DR knew nothing of
atrocities? Not bloody likely, given what the former did at Malmedy
(specifically by Kampfgruppe Peiper)
and the latter on its way from the

south of France to Normandy.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 Jan 1994 15:14:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: POWs

While on the subject of shooting POW's, there was an episode of WINGs
on the DISCOVERY channel about either the B-17 or B-24.  One of the
former crew members talked about being shot down over Germany.  When
he was being questioned, he saw the Mae West life jackets of some of his
crew; all had bloody holes in the vest.  When he asked, he was told that
the crewmembers had been killed with pitch forks by civilians causing the
bloody holes.

He went on to recount how he was taken to a railroad yard where he saw
captured RAF flyers with their hands tied behind them being thrown into
a burning building.  Again, I think civilians were the culprits.  When
the civilians saw the American prisoners, they came after them but a
Luftwaffe officer hustled the Americans into railroad box cars and locked
them in so they were saved.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 Jan 1994 15:20:22 EST
From:    Ingalls Steven CPT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WW II massacres

Mr. Coatney,

At the risk of involving myself in another debate regarding war and its
morality...

There is no wisdom demonstrated in shooting prisoners (ie. the German guards).
While atrocities committed in wartime explain a soldier's rage, they do not
justify retaliation in any form.  The lieutenant, like the guards he ordered
murdered, is now a war criminal.

CPT Stephen Ingalls
USMA
West Point

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 Jan 1994 14:17:33 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA: World War II Lecture Series

FYI

Camden County Community College in Blackwood NJ is conducting a
series of seminars on World War II in the Pacific.  There will
be a series of five lectures offered on Wednesday evenings from
February 2, 1994 to April 6, 1944.  Details are as follows:

     February 2:  Pearl Harbor:Why It Happened, How It Happened
                  Speaker:  Stanley Weintraub, holder of the
                            Evan Pugh Chair of Arts and
                            Humanities at Penn State

     February 16:  The Hidden War in Pacific:Codebreaking in the
                   Conflict with Japan
                   Speaker: David Kahn, assistant editor at
                            Newsday and author of "The Codebreakers"

     March 2:  With Liberty and Justice for All:The Internment
               of Japanese Americans During World War II
               Speaker:  Grace K. Uyehara, member of Japanese
                         American Citizens League National
                         Board and a former internee

     March 16:  General MacArthur's War Against the United
                States Navy
                Speaker:  William L. O'Neill, professor of
                          history at Rutgers University

     April 6:  The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb
               Speaker:  Gar Alperovitz, President of the
                         National Center for Economic Alternatives

If anyone is interested, I will FAX the College's brochure upon
request.

Jim

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-8760
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-8760

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 Jan 1994 12:42:00 PST
From:    Stephen Fox <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: WWII massacres

As far as the Waffen SS--and other well-positioned Germans--is
concerned, sounds very much to me like a case of "Everybody Knew.
Nobody Knew."

********************************************
*       Steve Fox                          *
*       History Department                 *
*       Humboldt State University          *
*       Arcata, CA  95521                  *
*       (707) 826-4788                     *
*       [email-masked]              *
********************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 Jan 1994 21:10:19 GMT
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <[email-masked]>
Subject: FW-190 Upward firing weapons, again :)

        Upward firing weapons on the FW-190's:

        SG 116, salvo weapon with series of MK 103 barrels eich
containing a single shell, the shells being fired by a photo electric
cell or Foto-Zellenfuhler also known as the Magic Eye (Magische Auge).
These MK 103 barrels were located immediately aft of the cockpit.

        SG 117 ("Rohrblock") a cluster of seven 30mm MK 108 barrels.
This weapon was similar to the SG 116 but was located in the wings but
was also a salvo weapon.

        The Luftwaffe also had a interesting weapon; Aft-firing 21cm
rocket that would have been used after the usual cannon/machine-gun
attack and launched when the fighter withdrew from battle.

        This is more or less quoted from Grenn's "Warplanes of the Third
Reich". If anyone can find a better source for Luftwaffe information
then I am impressed :)

Gudmundur J. Helgason

E-mail to:    [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 Jan 1994 13:26:07 -0800
From:    Julian E Gomez <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: First Raid On Germany

>The 1st Bombardment Wing dispatched 64 B-17's and the 2d Bombardment Wing
>dispatched 27 B-24's.  (A complete list of groups and their activities is
>listed below.)  Leading the mission was Colonel Frank A. Armstrong, Jr.
>Group Commander of the 306th Bombardment Group (Heavy).  Armstrong had also
>flown in the lead aircraft on the first B-17 mission to Rouen, France in

I would venture a guess that Col. Armstrong was a role model for the
character Col. Savage of Twelve O'Clock High (the book & movie).

"I was a precocious child and obviously destined to be a scientist."

        Dr. Julian "a tribble took it" Gomez
        Apple Computer, Inc.  408/862-1289 or 996-1010
        [email-masked]  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 Jan 1994 16:28:57 -0600
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: War criminal ... or unprofessional?  :-)

     Spoken (up) like a true professional, CPT Ingalls.  You might
pause to consider, though, that

1. countless German war criminals got off scot-free -- no
  disrespect to any Scots intended -- in the Western Allies'
  (very selective) concern for due process.

2. all those professional soldiers exterminated at Katyn by
  the Soviets were entirely unavenged

3. many more American officers and EMs -- including a number of
  Academy grads -- died at the hands of Japanese war criminals
  than Japanese war criminals who died at the hands of tribunals.
  Indeed, there was considerable controversy about whether Homma
  and Yamashita were just convenient scapegoats to distract from
  the REALLY guilty parties.

4. i.e., the "kill ratio" discrepancy between murderers and victims
  has been skewed to the killers' advantage throughout history --
  how many Khmer Rouge vs. how many victims? -- and that baby-faced
  lieutenant (who probably went back to store managing absolutely
  as soon as possible) had probably seen enough concentration camps
  -- unlike you or I, Steve -- to understand that.

     There are other dimensions to judgement than just "profes-
sional."

     Nonetheless:  Well spoken!

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 Jan 1994 16:09:46 -0800
From:    Jim Benn <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WW II massacres

This thread reminded me of a story my mother told me about a friend of
hers who returned from WWII haunted by this incident.  This fellow was a
crew member on some type of medium bomber in Europe (my mom is not interested
in aircraft designations).  Apparently they found out that on a recent
mission they dropped bombs on GIs by accident and killed a number.  On
the way back from the next mission, they spotted a column of refugees
(German) fleeing the fighting in the front lines.  Angry about the
bombing accident, they flew low and strafed the refugee column several
times, probably killing quite a few civilians.  As I heard the story,
they all felt "good" about getting their revenge, but this one fellow at
least began to feel guilty as time passed.
Just another story...

 *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*> Jim Benn  [[email-masked]] <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=*
 |-=[        Auto-Graphics, Inc.       ]=[      /~~)       /~~)           ]=-|
 |-=[        8 West Main Street        ]=[     (__(_UTO - (__/RAPHICS     ]=-|
 |-=[        Niantic, CT  06357        ]=[              .___/             ]=-|
 *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*>  PHONE: 800-733-6939 = FAX: 203-691-0183  <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=*

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 Jan 1994 19:26:25 EST
From:    John Sloan <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: WW II mas...

Discussion of massacre reminds me of the account of how the American troops
went wild (quite understandably) when they broke into Dachau and saw what had
been going on. According to accounts they slaughtered all the German guards
in a bout 15 minutes.  John sloan

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 27 Jan 1994 22:12:58 EST
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Esq." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: WW II massacres

> they may have witnessed, and they all denied ever seeing anything.  One
> man said that he had been with the Waffen SS for the entire war and had
> never witnessed any atrocities.  Another said that there were rumors of
> concentration camps, but nobody had any solid evidence.  Anyway, the
> question is, how likely is this?  Would it have been possible for anyone
> to have been in the Waffen SS (Liebstandarte Adolf Hitler and Das Reich
> were mentioned later) for the whole war and never see anything?  Or is
> this just a case of Sgt. Schultz (I know nothing, I hear nothing, I say
> nothing.)?
> David Rising ([email-masked])
David - I'll bet that they are too ashamed to tell the awful truth about
what they and the rest of the German nation did...denial may be the only
thing to have kept them sane through the last 50 years.
Jonah Triebwasser, Marist College, [email-masked]

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 26 Jan 1994 to 27 Jan 1994
*************************************************