Subject: WWII-L Digest - 21 Jan 1994 to 22 Jan 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 1994 00:00:08 -0500

There are 18 messages totalling 404 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Movie realism (4)
  2. Schweinfurt raid and FW-190
  3. WEAP: Soviet BA-10
  4. media
  5. Heavy Fighter
  6. Weap: Germans using Soviet weapons, etx
  7. Re[2]: Movie realism (2)
  8. MEDIA: Realism, or the Lack Thereof (4)
  9. Fighters with rear gunners
 10. NEWS Re: "This Week in the Navy"
 11. Winston Churchill

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Date:    Sat, 22 Jan 1994 00:06:59 -0500
From:    Wayne Young <[email-masked]>
Subject: Movie realism

...
>         Movies that went out of their way for hardware realism are
> (surprise!) "Kelly's Heroes" where the Germans used mock-Tigers which
> were really T-34s chasses with Tiger bodies.  The turrets even look
> authentic!  They also modified an M3 halftrack to look like a Hanomag --
> and it was only in the background!
...
> Joe Barone
> [email-masked]

     I must heartily agree!   For a war movie that doesn't have  an  all
too  serious (yet interesting) story line,  the effort made to make this
movie  authentic  is  impressive.    Your  mention  of  this  fine flick
triggered an urge in me watch it again,  but unfortunately, some lowlife
has had my copy for several months. =(

     While I'm "here",  I'd like to get more opinions  about  the  movie
"Cross  of Iron" - several friends of mine have recommended it as one of
the best movies on the second war.   However, I've have not been able to
rent,  much less purchase,  a copy of this picture to see  it  (Northern
Ontario is perhaps a tad backwards).

Wayne Young         [Rifraf]  | "In my opinion, we don't devote nearly
CS3, Northern College, Ont.   |  enough scientific research to finding
[email-masked]  |  a cure for jerks."  - Calvin

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 22 Jan 1994 05:37:27 GMT
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <[email-masked]>
Subject: Schweinfurt raid and FW-190

>
> Howdy,
>
> < Interestingly, German planes, like the Do 217 night fighter
> < and the He-217 "Owl" had fixed guns that slanted upwards so
> < they can engage enemy bombers above them
>
> Makes perfect sense to me. British night bombers (Lancaster, Whitneys,...)
> didn't have belly guns like their American counter-parts. This made British
> bombers vulnerable to attacks from below. I don't know what the percentage
> of British night-bombers were lost to these attacks. Anybody out there
> know?
>

Hi,
The FW-190 had upward firing cannons (I think the designation was G8)
that were totally automatic and activated by light sensors when the
fighter flew beneath the belly of a bomber. It has been estimated the
over half of the USAAF bombers shot down in the Sweinfurt raid had been
shot down with this equipment.
The FW-190 also had DOWNWARD firing cannons at one time (tank killers).

Bye for now,

Gudmundur J. Helgason

E-mail to:    [email-masked]

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Date:    Sat, 22 Jan 1994 01:01:08 -0500
From:    Wayne Young <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Soviet BA-10

>         I'm looking for some info concerning the Soviet BA-10
> turreted armored car.  My motivation is to build a 1/35 scale model
> of it.  From photos that I have seen of the vehicle, I'm uncertain
> as to whether it was tracked or not.  I've seen photos where the two
> rear wheels look like giant intertubes (no treads) and I've seen
> others where the two rear wheels were tracked.  I'm not certain if
> these where different variations or if the vehicle merely had
> alternate modes of travel (take the tracks off when on roads; put
> them on when going cross-country).  The other possibility is that
> it is only tracked and the photos showing only the wheels are of
> vehicles with thrown tracks (captions don't in this regard).
...
>--
> Joe Barone
> [email-masked]
> It was a wasted trip, baby.  Nobody said
> nothing about locking horns with no Tigers.

        According to the data that I have, it is an entirely wheeled,
6x4 chassis... my main source is the ASLRB which is generally 99.9%
accurate.  Hope that's enough.
        And of course, I like the variety of "Kelly's Heroes" quotes. =)

Wayne Young         [Rifraf]  | "In my opinion, we don't devote nearly
CS3, Northern College, Ont.   |  enough scientific research to finding
[email-masked]  |  a cure for jerks."  - Calvin

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 22 Jan 1994 00:29:25 -0600
From:    Jon Stevens <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: media

Joe Barone writes:
>"Kelly's Heroes"...used mock-Tigers which were really T34s chasis with
>Tiger bodies....

A friend and I were trying to figure out exactly what these mock
Tigers  were.  We concluded they were Pzkw 38t chasis.  This seemed
plausable since according to Sqaudron/Signal's _Pzkpfw 38(t) in Action_ a
variation was used by the Swiss well in the 1960's.  Also, the large
wheels on the Kelly's Heroes Tiger tank were solid unlike a T34 which
seemed to match with the photos of the Pzkw 38t.

While on the subject of the 38t I remember a movie on WGN last summer about
the life of Earnest Hemmingway starring Stacy Keach.  One part I saw showed
when Hemmingway was entering Paris with French Resistance.  What was blocking
their way looked exactly like a Pzkw 38t varient, the Hetzer Jgpz 38t.
Anyone seen this movie? I don't remember the title.

Jon Stevens -- email [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 22 Jan 1994 01:00:53 CST
From:    Steve Alvin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Heavy Fighter

Sure, most of the twin engine, multi-seat fighters could not
match the Spitfire or Me-109.  But planes like the Me-110, the
Beaufighter, and Poetz 631 were developed in the late 1930's on
a theory of the heavy fighter.  The heavy fighter would have long
range and massive firepower that would allow it to escort bombers
to targets and destroy any interceptor that tried to interfere.
Only the Me-110 was really used in this role.  Problem was, the
110's were unable to guard the bombers during the Battle of
Britain, they need protection themselves!  After that most heavy
fighters were customized to other work--fighter/bomber, bomber
destroyer, night fighter, etc.

The Americans experimented with the heavy fighter as well.  The
most famous design was the Bell XFM Airacuda.  It was designed
in 1935 and first flew in 1937.  It was envisioned as a long-range
bomber destroyer and had several innovations.  It was a twin engine
pusher design with a 37mm cannon in the front half of the engine
nacelle. It turned out to be very expensive, underpowered, and
difficult to fly.  Only 13 were completed.

--
Steve Alvin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 22 Jan 1994 13:50:15 -0500
From:    Joshua Norton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Movie realism

        I haven't seen the movie "Cross of Iron" in a few years, but as I
recall it was very good.  The only part that I question is that the main
character, a German NCO (I believe), carried a Soviet made PPSh submachine
gun as his primary weapon.  I have never heard of a German soldier giving up
a MP 40 (which a NCO would carry) for another weapon such as this.  I've
also never seen evidence in any photographs or autobiographies (such as
"The Forgotten Soldier") from the Eastern Front.

[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 22 Jan 1994 14:18:49 -0500
From:    Warren Thompson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Weap: Germans using Soviet weapons, etx

Wehrmacht men in the East developed a taste for vodka and papirosi, so why
not use captured weapons as well? German armored trains were often regunned
with Soviet pieces (as well as French and Czech). There are also photos of
T-34s sporting the Balkankreuz and panzerdivision markings.

-- Warren Thompson

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 22 Jan 1994 15:00:00 EST
From:    Don Bowden <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Movie realism

Re: Cross of Iron movie. The book and additional books by the same author are
really much better than the movie. Did a much better job of recreating the
atmosphere on the eastern front.
Don Bowden

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 22 Jan 1994 14:11:34 CST
From:    "[email-masked]. --Scherrer,
         Tim A." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re[2]: Movie realism

The Germans did use small numbers of PPsH sub-machine guns.  It even had
a German designation.  I also believe the German manufactured in small
numbers a carrying bag for the drum that would fit on the German field
gear belt.  Most of the weapons were used as battlefield pick-ups.  The
large magazine capacity was the big draw of the weapon.

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 22 Jan 1994 15:39:39 -0500
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Realism, or the Lack Thereof

Just my two cents worth on war movies.  I recently had the pleasure of
seeing _Stalingrad_ which is a 3 hour German film by the makers of Das
Boot- now my second favorite WWII film.  Both of these are fantastic and
I would highly recommend them both.  Stalingrad is still here in the
theatres in Toronto, so I think it'll be a while before it's on video.
Also, try Europa Europa.  Not too much fighting, but another great WWII
flick.
David Rising ([email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 22 Jan 1994 15:30:53 CST
From:    Steve Alvin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Realism, or the Lack Thereof

It would have been hard for the Exeter to play herself in the
movie about the Graf Spee as she was sunk on 1 March 1942 by
torpedos from the Japanese destroyer Inazuma and gunfire from
the cruisers Ashigara and Myoko off the coast of Borneo.

--
Steve Alvin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 22 Jan 1994 13:43:39 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Fighters with rear gunners

German night-fighters using upwards firing cannon (shraegemusik=slanted
music, jazz) were very effective. However, there can be no exact
numbers as to how many RAF bombers were shot down by the particaular
method.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 22 Jan 1994 14:00:27 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Movie realism

For a sense of utter realism depicting the combat in the last few
weeks of WW2, THE BRIDGE must rank near the top.  'Tells the tale
based on fact, of a group of German schoolboys pressed into the
Volksturm, and ordered to defend a bridge "to the last". Their
equipment, weaponry, was mainly a set of panzerfausts. A weary old
sergeant is put incharge, and his charaterization was superb.
Realism was probably because it was a German production, late 1960s as I
recall.
Anyone see it?

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 22 Jan 1994 18:05:36 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: NEWS Re: "This Week in the Navy"

>  Larry,
>
>  Please establish a weekly or periodic routine of publishing to the list
>  "This Week in the Navy," obtained from THE U.S.NAVY NEWS SERVICE.

   The Navy News is posted to soc.veterans and available from the Navy BBS.
I've discussed the matter with Capt. Tim Taylor and since only an occasional
article is on-charter for this list I don't feel it's fair to add non-topic
traffic to the deluge of mail those members with small mail-boxes receive.

1-800-582-2355 or 1-800-582-6940 are the toll free numbers for the Navy's
BBS. The opening screen is a little imposing but legitmate users are not
bounced unless the system gets overloaded.

   If Jack or someone else wants to "guard" the NavNews for relevant articles
they will always be welcome, but I can't add 100k for non-germane traffic.

>  The Mc Killup post, 20 Jan 94 at 08:47:10, was very interesting and
>  informative :-). An advantage is that I have a print made from this news for
>  promulgation to my history students. I understand this type of printing
>  can't be accomplished when using Byrd. Is this correct, Larry ?

   Depends on your system. I've been wanting to start a mailing list for
material from byrd to those without ftp or gopher access, but I am being
yelled at by my docs for the amount of time I spend at the keyboard now,
so my degree will have to come before anything like that. Anyone out there
with some free time :-)?

Larry J

[email-masked]; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 22 Jan 1994 15:16:20 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Realism, or the Lack Thereof

For sheer spectacle, ad realism, I never saw anything to surpass
THE WINTER WAR.  It is unusual in several ways, not the lest least
being that the movie was sponsored and produced as a national film
by the government of Finland. It was produced in time to mark the
50th anniversary of the end of the Russ-Finnish War. Its cast of
thousands is mostly made up of the entire Finnish army, with very
good accuracy of uniforms, equipment, and weaponry.
THE WINTER WAR is four hours long. Entirely in Finnish lanuage, with
English subtitles for benefit of the North American audience it
reached on a special government sponsored tour in January 19990.
I was invited to its premiere in Toronto, Ont., Canada. That same
week, I had the pleasure of delivering a talk on The Winter War to
The Canadian Friends of Finland. Very enjoyable, but you can imagine
my feelings while giving the lecture to have learned just before
gpomng going on the podium, platform, that there were a score of
veterans of that war in the audience, incld including Gen Arno Sihvo,
cuuent general of the Finnish Army.  :-)
'Glad to report, everyone in the room survicvived, survived the night.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 22 Jan 1994 21:39:38 EST
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Esq." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Winston Churchill

Dear Fellow List Readers: Sometime ago, I mentioned the availability of
membership in the International Churchill Society, an organization
devoted to studying the writings by and about Britain's great War Prime
Minister, Winston Churchill. As I noted, the Society has a full-color
quarter journal, annual seminars, dinners and other programs with noted
historians and some of Churchill's aides as speakers. The dues start at
$25 (US) per year. The reason I write again is that I can now provide an
address and telephone number for those interested in membership:
International Churchill Society
PO Box 385-N
Hopkinton, NH 03229
(800) 643-6218
I have been a member for five years and greatly enjoy the journal and
meetings.
Regards to all from the Hudson Valley in New York where the temperature
is rising! (from -16 degrees Fahrenheit!)
Jonah Triebwasser
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 22 Jan 1994 21:50:46 -0500
From:    Bob Smart <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Movie realism

> The Germans did use small numbers of PPsH sub-machine guns.  It even had
> a German designation.  I also believe the German manufactured in small
> numbers a carrying bag for the drum that would fit on the German field
> gear belt.  Most of the weapons were used as battlefield pick-ups.  The
> large magazine capacity was the big draw of the weapon.

Soviet weapons also tend to work well in extreme temeratures. I'm not sure if
the same could always be said for finely machined German weapons ( or American)
After all I can't think of anyone with as much extreme cold weather experience
as the Soviets except possibly the Norwegians & Swedes.

Bob Smart ([email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 22 Jan 1994 21:46:02 -0500
From:    Bob Smart <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Realism, or the Lack Thereof

> It would have been hard for the Exeter to play herself in the
> movie about the Graf Spee as she was sunk on 1 March 1942 by
> torpedos from the Japanese destroyer Inazuma and gunfire from
> the cruisers Ashigara and Myoko off the coast of Borneo.

You are right of course. Which makes me wonder which ship played her. I know
Achilles ( Then the Indian Navy Delhi) Played herself  But the Ajax was
scrapped in 1950 which makes her possible but unlikely to have played herself.
Well I guess I'll just have to see if I can find it at the Video store soon and
watch it again. Purely as a research project of course :-)

Bob Smart ([email-masked])

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End of WWII-L Digest - 21 Jan 1994 to 22 Jan 1994
*************************************************