Subject: WWII-L Digest - 28 Jan 1994 to 29 Jan 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 1994 00:00:05 -0500

There are 16 messages totalling 366 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Re[2]: WW II massacres
  2. War criminal ... or unprofessional? :-) (2)
  3. War Crimes
  4. FW-190 weapons
  5. Bombing bombers by air launched weapons
  6. An officer who opposed atrocities
  7. Hello....
  8. REF Re: Flasher info.
  9. Flasher info.
 10. War criminal ... or unprofessional?  :-)
 11. POWs
 12. CRYPTOLOGY IN WWII (4)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 28 Jan 1994 23:26:27 CST
From:    Steve Alvin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: WW II massacres

I can understand the sense of rage felt by soldiers in battle
that could possibly lead to shooting prisioners.  But I have
yet to come to understand the behavior of American aircraft
during the battle of the Bismarck Sea, 2-4 March, 1943.  8
Japanese transports loaded with 7,000 troops, escorted by
8 destroyers were trying to reinforce New Guinea.  Medium bombers,
A-20's and B-25's of the 5th AF sank 7 transports and 4 DD's,
the other transport was sunk by a PT Boat.

By the last day of the battle, there were several thousand Japanese
soldiers and sailors in the water.  American aircraft, out of
targets, straffed and bombed the men in the water.  The argument
used to justify this action was that they could still be a
threat to Allied troops.  This argument overlooks that fact that
these men were withouts arms and ammunition over 50 miles
from land.  I don't think they were much of a threat.

This was one of the most lop sided battles of the war as Allied
losses were 2 bombers and 3 fighters.  I understand that the war
in the Pacific was "different".  But, how can you justify action,
by the Americans or any of the other combatants?

--
Steve Alvin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 29 Jan 1994 01:35:38 +22311624
From:    Monte Turner <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: War criminal ... or unprofessional? :-)

Ryan, you need to do a little work and find out what "due process" means
to a democratic society.  A prisoner's perception immediately on release
is not, just as the judgement of German villager who has captured a
downed flie is not.

Monte Turner

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 29 Jan 1994 09:59:32 EST
From:    Richard Kaplan <[email-masked]>
Subject: War Crimes

A different twist to what has been on the list vis-a-vis massacres.  Last
week's Int'l Jerusalem Post had an article on a Wehrmacht Colonel honored at
Yas Vashem (Israel's Holocaust Memorial & research center) for ordering his men
to use force against SS troops.  It seems the SS were going to transport the
Jews from a town that the Colonel was in charge of.
The article didn't indicate if charges were ever brought against him, or even
if he survived the war.  I'm sorry I didn't get his name, but his children and
widow went to Israel for the ceremony.

                                        Richard Kaplan
                                        Carnegie Library of Pgh.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 29 Jan 1994 19:10:47 GMT
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <[email-masked]>
Subject: FW-190 weapons

        Regarding the argument over the upward firing weapons of the
FW-190:

        My source is Green's huge book "The Warplanes of the Third
Reich" that has a big chapter on the FW-190. It does not say however
that these weapons SG 117 and SG 116 were used operationally. I saw that
Schweinfurt loss figure in some other book that I cannot find again, ;(
        However I cant find anything about any V74 and V75 fighter (where
is the werk no of them?).

        I remember however (from this other source) that the SG117 was
tested by flying the Fw-190 beneath huge balloons that had similar shape
and size of the US bombers, and the photo-electric cell was adjusted
during these tests. Perhaps my source added the losses in Schweinfurt
made by the 1000-meter-range-rocket?

I encourage anyone to check out Green's book

Gudmundur J. Helgason

E-mail to:    [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 29 Jan 1994 14:07:30 EST
From:    Ryan <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: War criminal ... or unprofessional? :-)

Monte,
     In a time of war, what is "due Process" about?  Is there time for
such a thing?  You may that yes, there is becuaser this is a democratic
society.  It is an ideal that everyone receives a fair trial for their
crimes.  However, the world is not a perfect one, notr is this nation
perfect.  The fiarest thing that the guards received was being shot.
They had the opportunity to be fair to the POW's.  They were not.  Being
selected by a bunch of POW's is not exactly a jury trial.  It is more fair
than simply shooting all of the fuards.  One cannot equate due process
in a court room with due process on a battle field.  It is not conceivable
that every war criminal receive a fair trial, that process is simply to enormou
s.  The lt. was simply being expedient.  Is he also a war criminal as well?
I don't think so.  Is someone who flips the switch for the elcetric chair a
felon?  The lt. did the best he could in the situation.  It would seem fair
to say taht the "bad" guards had surrendered their "right" to "due process"
via their poor treatment of the POW's.

Again, please forgive the typos  :)

                                          Ryan

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 29 Jan 1994 19:51:47 GMT
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <[email-masked]>
Subject: Bombing bombers by air launched weapons

        Hi, all

        Does anyone know anything about if the axis (or the allied) ever
used somekind of air dropped bombs to kill bombers/fighters?
        I think I saw somewhere that the Japanese used some kind of bomb
they dropped high above the US bomber formations, this weapon I think
damaged some bombers while not "killing" any of them.

        A 10.000 pound time-fused bomb could have terrible impact on,
say B-17 formation, if delievered properly.

Any info would be great

Gudmundur J. Helgason

E-mail to:    [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 29 Jan 1994 15:15:58 -0600
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: An officer who opposed atrocities

Thank you, Richard, for the info. on the Wehrmacht officer.  While
  American atrocities against the innocent -- in cases like My Lai --
  were certainly not policy and represented a lapse in discipline and
  control, some did occur, and it would be an important precedent if
  we could find an American equivalent of that Wehrmacht officer.

On VWAR-L, someone mentioned an American helicopter pilot who landed
  his chopper in a killing field and evacuated a few of the
  civilians.  This was at My Lai, and he supposedly had his gunners
  train their weapons on American troops.  He WAS decorated, but not
  officially for this.

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 29 Jan 1994 16:19:28 EST
From:    Bill Vasilion <[email-masked]>
Subject: Hello....

       Hi I am new to the list but I need to find information about
  my dad's units in the war..I have tried the local libaries but none
   have added to my knowledge........
      I need information on the 50th troop carrier wing out of
     Wright Field at around 1938 1939 and then later the 47 fighter
  squadron out of Iwo Jima when they were I belive flying P-51
     or some P-38's ???

         I have a couple of pictures but I need more information
    on what happened to the 47th fighter squadron ?? did it disband
     after the war: was it kept until peace time???

         Thanks you can send this to me via the list or by email to

              [email-masked]          thanks bill

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 29 Jan 1994 17:27:01 EST
From:    "CARL WERNKE (TCWERNC@VCCSCENT)" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: REF Re: Flasher info.

 X-To: [email-masked]
 To: MULTIPLE RECIPIENTS OF LIST WWII-L ([email-masked])

 Jenny wrote

 >Post 28 Jan 94 at 19:51:25 -- would like to know more about the
 >submarine Flasher.

 I recommend the following sources , ref. the U.S.S. FLASHER (SS 249) :

 UNITED STATES SUBMARINE OPERATIONS IN WORLD WAR II, pages 313-14, 323,
 383-84, 412, 427, 429-32, and 453.
 By: Theodore Roscoe
 Published by: United States Naval Institute
               Annapolis, MD
               Sixth Printing, June 1958

    Also recommend:

    THE SHIPS AND AIRCRAFT OF THE U.S. FLEET,  Page 28
    By: James C. Fahey
    Second War Edition, 1944     +============================================+
                                 +   It was to the Submarine Force that I     +
                                 +   looked to carry the load until our       +
                                 +   great industrial activity could          +
                                 +   produce the weapons we sorely needed to  +
                                 +   carry the war to the enemy.              +
                                 +                                            +
                                 +   C.W.NIMITZ  FLEET ADMIRAL, U.S.NAVY      +
                                 +============================================+
   CARL WERNKE
   [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 29 Jan 1994 18:17:51 EST
From:    MR SKIP WILDER <[email-masked]>
Subject: Flasher info.

Jennifer,
        See SILENT VICTORY: THE US SUBMARINE WAR AGAINST JAPAN by Clay
Blair, Jr., Lippincott, 1975 (ISBN-0-397-00753-1).  Provides  history of
all sub ops in the Pacific.

        Also, WAR FISH by George Grider and Lytel Sims, Little Brown, 1958
(sorry, no ISBN).  Grider was skipper of _Flasher_ and this book tells the
story of Grider's remarkable success.

Skip Wilder
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 29 Jan 1994 17:44:30 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: War criminal ... or unprofessional?  :-)

A remarkable example of restraint happened on VJ-Day,1945, in a
Japanese PW camp in Malaya.  The Japanese camp guards had behaved
with unrelieved despicable brutality towards the British prisoners
for over three years. Yet, when five soldiers bent on revenge took
up rifles with the intent of paying off old scores, they were placed
under open arrest by a sergeant-major.  One ex-prisoner there later
told of the unreality of what happened next; within tow hours of
news of Japan's defeat, the British priisoners were sitting down
playing card-games with their earstwhile guards.  The human spirit
is remarkable.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 29 Jan 1994 18:14:12 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: POWs

Being an "innocent civilian" just bombed does not in itself necessarily
require that one murders enemy aircrew who parachutes into one's mercy.
There were rather more than a few equally innocent civilian victims of
the Luftwaffe in Britain. I myself witnessed several German fliers who
floated down in the UK, and usually were greeted with nothing more
threatening than a Bobbie on a bicycle saying, "better come along with
me, lad"; often as not finding his prisoner already drinking tea provided
by the civilians who captured him.
It depends a great deal on *which* civilians are doing the receptionreception of down airmen.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 29 Jan 1994 20:36:41 CST
From:    phyllis soybel <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: CRYPTOLOGY IN WWII

On Fri, 28 Jan 1994 07:40:48 -0500 Robin Hood said:
>CAN ANY ONE OUT THERE SEND ME INFORMATION ABOUT BLETCHLEY PARK AND
>ULTRA. AM DOING AN ASSIGNMENT ABOUT DATA ENCRYPTION AND WOULD
>APPRECIATE INFO RE. WWII. hAVE READ "A MAN CALLED INTREPID" BUT AM
>LOOKING FOR AN ACTUAL PICTURE(S) OF THE COMPUTERS ETC. FOUND AT
>BLETCHLEY PARK.
>
>THANKS...
I would suggest reading Ladislo Farago's book, The Broken Seal
2) Bertrand, Gustav, Enigma
These two deal directly with Enigma. David Kahns, The Codebreakers, is a
classic. Sir Harry Hinsley has written the official history of British Intellig
ence during WWII in 3 vols, complete with the pictures you seek. In addition, a
more popular, less "scholarly book, Thomas Parrish, THe Ultra Americans deals
looks at American contributions to ULTRA complete with pictures. Look also at
Ronald Lewin's books on ULTRA and MAGIC, as well as Patrick Beesly. You could
look at F.W. Winterbotham, but why? His book paved the way for other, better
written and better documented, less congratulatory books on the least known,
but very important area of cryptology and intelligence during the war. Good
Luck!

Phyllis Soybel
University of Illinois at Chicago

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 29 Jan 1994 21:57:57 -0500
From:    David Spencer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: CRYPTOLOGY IN WWII

> CAN ANY ONE OUT THERE SEND ME INFORMATION ABOUT BLETCHLEY PARK AND
> ULTRA. AM DOING AN ASSIGNMENT ABOUT DATA ENCRYPTION AND WOULD
> APPRECIATE INFO RE. WWII. hAVE READ "A MAN CALLED INTREPID" BUT AM
> LOOKING FOR AN ACTUAL PICTURE(S) OF THE COMPUTERS ETC. FOUND AT
> BLETCHLEY PARK.

Hinsley et al, _British Intelligence in the Second World War_ is the
official Brit history. It is definitive.

Please don't shout. We can all har you.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 29 Jan 1994 21:05:59 CST
From:    phyllis <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: CRYPTOLOGY IN WWII

David, wasn't my shout. Whoever sent the original message sent it in
bright neon lights. I was only responding. I agree that Hinsley is definitive
for British side, but the Americans built their own bombes, did their own
decrpyting of Enigma and ULTRA at Arlington and Hinsley really does not
deal with that. I use Hinsley a great deal since my dissertation deals
with Anglo-American coop. in naval intelligence during the war. He's a
tremendous source, but only definitive for the British side.

Phyllis Soybel
University of Illinois at Chicago

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 29 Jan 1994 20:12:01 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: CRYPTOLOGY IN WWII

As a further caution about the extreme unreliability of A MAN CALLED
INTREPID as a source -- any edition of that florid "history" published
after 1986 now carries on its title page, a Publisher'sNote:
        "This novel is a work of fiction. Names, characters, places,
or incidents are either the product of the author's imagination *or
are used fictitiously*, and any resemblence to actual persons, living or
dead, events or locales, is entirely coincidental".
In other words, A MAN CALLED INTREPID is an entertaining story, but
definitely not history.
A book entitled THE QUIET CANADIAN in Britain and Canada, and entitled
ROOM 3603 in the United States, tells the actual factual history of
Stevenson's wartime service.  He was the very capable head of BSC,
British Security Co-Ordination, the counter-espionage agency of Britain
based in New York City. Sir William had many virues, but none of them
had the slightest to do with code-breaking at Bletchley Park or sending
secret agents into Occupied Europe.
Regards.

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 28 Jan 1994 to 29 Jan 1994
*************************************************