Subject: WWII-L Digest - 27 Jan 1994 to 28 Jan 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 1994 00:00:36 -0500

There are 25 messages totalling 893 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Snipers not protected by Rules of War?
  2. WW II massacres (4)
  3. Re[2]: WW II massacres (5)
  4. USAAF 28-30 JAN 44
  5. Seeking Help
  6. First Raid On Germany
  7. Churchill & Charmley (2)
  8. War criminal ... or unprofessional?  :-)
  9. CRYPTOLOGY IN WWII (2)
 10. Media: Telly Savalas dead
 11. Media and Kelly's Heroes
 12. Russian Military Museums
 13. Flasher info.
 14. POWs
 15. FW-190 Upward firing weapons, again :)
 16. Documents on WWII

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Date:    Fri, 28 Jan 1994 16:32:59 +1000
From:    John Foster <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Snipers not protected by Rules of War?

There were many instances when the war was almost over and both sides knew
it yet soldiers from both sides continually lost their lives over silly
little "incidents" which in the final outcome would prove nothing.A
particular galling practice for the allies in these last days was the actions
of Hitler youth with panzerfaust and grenades but an even more galling was the
action of some embittered battle experienced soldiers who wanted some sort of
revenge for their imminent defeat but who had no wish to sacrifice their lives
for the Fatherland.In a situation where defeat and capture were imminent they
would take out a vehicle or soldier and then throw there weapons down and put
up their hands virtually laughing in the face of the soldier they were
surrendering to who often was the mate of the one who had just been blown
away.It was provocation of the worst kind and it would have taken a lot of
strength of character not to reply in the appropriate manner with hot lead.
Snipers often came into this category who watched their comrades surrender but
had one last hit before surrendering themselves.
        Charles Whitings book "The Last Battle"(memory) mentions some of these
incidents and also a case where a soldier claimed his platoon had surrendered
and been murdered by the German troops which resulted in reprisals only to
see the "murdered" soldiers liberated from their captivity a few days later.I
think a large group of Hitler youth in uniform were massacred at the orders
of unknown British corporal at the time much to the disgust of the local
elderly inhabitants of a small village.I believe that one of Monty's favourite
young aides who had been with him since Africa was ambushed and murdered while
surrendering at this time which seemed to affect Monty more than anything else
he had encountered.The book is particularly good because it deals with a
crucial area of battle just prior to surrender which is not often acknowledged
especially in American media.
                                                       Regards
                                                     John Foster
"Clark Gable has joined up.He's an air gunner....
Thats not a very big part.
The war has been badly cast, I said.I should be playing the part of a rich
conscientious objector living with  Joan Blondell who has to be massaged,nude,
every hour with hot chocolate."
                             Spike Miligan-May 27'43 Africa

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 28 Jan 1994 16:54:48 +1000
From:    John Foster <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WW II massacres

I  just sent a posting mentioning reprisals for a suposed massacre of allied
soldiers who had surrendered which turned out to be false.The Das Reich on
their way to Normandy I believed reacted to the disappearance of one of
their officers who had been ambushed while scouting.The rumour was that
they had been tortured and killed by the resistance in a way that was typical
of the Russian front and these troops just come from that front reacted in
the way you would expect.I dont think there was ever any proof of this torture
came to light.This would be the problem when one decides to be judge and jury
in war time ie often the information that fuels ones emotions is often wrong.
Still this is probably no worse than the prosecution of criminals after the war
with all the facts in hand where political expediency decide who gets
prosecuted for what and what form that prosecution takes and justice is rarely
seen to be done.
                                                      Regards
                                                       John
"I chose you Milligan because you've never driven me before,and its time I had
another accident."It was a brief journey.....Major Chater Jack 13 May'43 AFRICA

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 28 Jan 1994 00:55:10 +22311624
From:    Monte Turner <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: WW II massacres

Of course there are certainly numerous incidents that are less clear than
the ones that have been described.  I recently interviewed a tank
commander from the Fifth Army.  He described a time when he and two other
tanks were accepting the surrender of a large number of German infantry on
a small, muddy Italian road.  The infantry were passing by the tanks with
their hands raised, unarmed, when a sniper's shot rang out.  The three
American tank commanders quickly shut themselves inside their armour and
 recommenced their war by machine-gunning all Germans in sight.  The man I
interviewed looked upon those Germans not as people but as the enemy.  In
his view his job was to get the whole thing over so he could go on with
his life (He volunteered in 1942).  There was no rage, just a job.  No
vengence, just a job.

                                Monte Turner

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 28 Jan 1994 07:37:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: USAAF 28-30 JAN 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
FRIDAY, 28 JANUARY 1944 TO SUNDAY, 30 JANUARY 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-24, Douglas Dauntless
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  Beaufighter, Bristol
  F-9, Boeing Flying Fortress
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  Spitfire, Vickers Supermarine

FRIDAY, 28 JANUARY 1944
EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 195: 54 B-24's in 2 groups
are dispatched to the Bonnieres V-weapon site in France; 2 Gee-H equipped PFF
aircraft lead each group; due to technical difficulties, the second formation
was ordered to follow the lead and bomb the same target as a secondary; 4
minutes before the target the leader of one section accidentally released and
the following 11 aircraft did likewise; 31 hit the primary; 1 B-24 is
damaged. 122 P-47's provide escort without loss.
  Gee-H is more accurate than H2X but is of use only against targets within
the 200-mi (320 km) beacon range; later, aircraft are equipped with both
devices.
  Mission 196: During the evening, 5 of 5 B-17's drop 1.36 million leaflets
on Amiens, Rouen, Cambrai, Reims and Caen, France without loss.
  Mission 197: During the night, 1 B-17 on an Oboe Mk II test drops 2 tons
of bombs on Emmerich, Germany.
  748th, 749th, 750th and 751st Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), 457th
Bombardment Group (Heavy), arrive at Glatton, England from the US with
B-17's; first mission is 21 Feb.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Italy, B-17's, with fighter
escorts, bomb Aviano Airfield and Verona marshalling yard; B-24's hit the
marshalling yard at Ferrara.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25's attack the Orte
marshalling yard; B-26's hit bridges at Orvieto and Montalto di Castro;
A-20's bomb Cisterna di Latina with good results; P-40's and P-47's bomb
the Popoli road junction, and A-36's hit railroad, road, and gun positions in
the Cassino-Vicenza-Velletri areas, the Colleferro marshalling yard, and
Atina town area; P-40's hit Terelle, Belmonte in Sabina, and Cisterna; Allied
fighters over the Anzio area claim 21 aircraft shot down.
  416th Night Fighter Squadron, 62d Fighter Wing, transfers from Grottaglie
to Pomigliano, Italy with Beaufighters.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): AAF aircraft from the Gilbert
Islands bomb the Marshall Islands, i.e., 9 B-25's, staging through Makin
Island bomb Taroa Island in Maloelap Atoll; B-24's, staging through Tarawa
Atoll and Makin Island and taking off at varying intervals, carry out several
hours of strikes against Wotje, Kwajalein, Maloelap, and Jaluit Atolls.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, AAF
and USN fighters support a USN dive-bomber attack on targets in the Rabaul
area; 5 P-38's are lost; Allied aircraft claim about 30 aircraft shot down;
at Lakunai airfield, one of the targets, 20-30 parked aircraft are destroyed
and several AA positions are destroyed or damaged; and 25 B-25's, covered by
12 P-38's, pound Tobera Airfield. 16 P-39's strafe the Shortland Island area.
  HQ 307th Bombardment Group (Heavy) transfers from Guadalcanal Island to
Munda, New Georgia Island.i
  424th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 307th Bombardment Group (Heavy), based
on Guadalcanal with B-24's begins operating from Munda, New Georgia Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): B-25's attack targets of
opportunity from Bogia to Cape Croisilles, New Guinea. On New Britain Island,
A-20's attack in the Cape Gloucester area; P-40's hit the airfield at
Hoskins; and P-39's strafe barges in Rein Bay.
  HQ 417th Bombardment Group (Light) and 672d, 673d, 674th and 675th
Bombardment Squadrons (Light) arrive at Cape Sudest, New Guinea from the US
with A-20's; first mission is 27 Mar.

SATURDAY, 29 JANUARY 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 13 B-24's, supported by 16
P-38's, bomb gasoline plants at Yenangyaung, causing large fires; 1 B-24
later bombs Akyab; 6 B-25's attack bridges at Meza and Pyintha, damaging the
former and blasting railroad approaches to the latter.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 198: Led by PFF aircraft,
675 B-17's and 188 B-24's are dispatched to hit the industrial area at
Frankfurt, Germany; 590 B-17's and 170 B-24's hit the primary target; 46
B-17's bomb Ludwigshafen due to a deviation from planned bomb route; they
claim 75-27-48 Luftwaffe aircraft; 24 B-17's and 5 B-24's are lost, 2 B-17's
and 3 B-24's are damaged beyond repair and 116 B-17's and 19 B-24's are
damaged; casualties are 22 KIA, 32 WIA and 299 MIA. Escort is 89 P-38's, 503
P-47's and 40 Ninth Air Force P-51's; they claim 47-6-14 Luftwaffe aircraft;
5 P-38's and 10 P-47's are lost, 1 P-38 is damaged beyond repair and 3 P-38's
and 1 P-47 are damaged; casualties are 14 MIA.
  This is first Eighth Air Force mission in which more than 700 aircraft
attack targets.
  Mission 199: During the evening, 5 of 5 B-17's drop 1.2 million leaflets
on Lille, Tours, Lorient, Nantes and Valenciennes, France without loss.
  HQ 458th Bombardment Group (Heavy) arrives at Horshal St Faith, England
from the US.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 80+ B-26's bomb V-weapon sites in
coastal France.
  HQ 84th Fighter Wing arrives at Keevil, England from the US.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Italy, B-24's bomb the Siena
marshalling yard through overcast; B-17's bomb marshalling yards at Ancona,
Fabriano, Rimini, and Bologna; P-47's sweep over the Rome and Florence areas.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25's bomb San
Benedetto de Marsi marshalling yard; B-26's hit bridges N of Rome; P-47's
bomb a munitions factory at Bussi sul Tirino; P-40's and A-36's, in support
of US Fifth Army forces, bomb positions in the Anzio beachhead area and hit
enemy forward road and rail communications; fighters on patrol over Anzio
meet little air opposition.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): As a US invasion force
approaches the Marshall Islands, B-24's, attacking from bases in the Gilbert
Islands, maintain day and night attacks (both multiple-plane missions and
single-plane attacks at intervals) against Maloelap, Jaluit, Aur, Wotje, and
Mille Atolls, Marshall Islands. 9 B-25's from Tarawa Atoll, Gilbert Islands,
also carry out a strike against shipping and shore installations at Wotje. 18
A-24's, supported by 12 P-40's, hit Jaluit. 12 P-39's, operating in flights
of 4 aircraft, patrol and strafe Mille all day to deny the use of the
airfield to the enemy.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island,
about 60 Allied fighters cover a strike by 40 USN dive bombers on Tobera;
Lakunai airfield is pounded by 19 B-24's, escorted by P-38's and USN
fighters; at Tobera and Lakunai, Allied aircraft claim 20+ Japanese shot
down.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): 40+ B-25's bomb Bogia and
Nubia landing grounds, New Guinea. 45 A-20's hit positions in the Cape
Gloucester, New Britain Island area.

SUNDAY, 30 JANUARY 1944

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ZONE OF INTERIOR (Third Air Force): The air echelon of the 19th
Photographic Charting Squadron, 11th Photographic Group (Mapping), begins
operating from Cairo, Egypt with F-9's to photo-map the Middle East and
Africa. The ground echelon remains at MacDill Field, Tampa, Florida.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 6 B-25's attack bridges at Meza,
Zawchaung, and N of Kyungon; Meza bridge is put out of commission, Kyungon
bridge demolished, and Zawchaung bridge damaged; a locomotive and tender are
destroyed at the latter target; and a single B-25 attacks vehicles and other
targets of opportunity between Taihpa Ga and Tsumhpawng Ga.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 20 P-40's fly armed reconnaissance over E
Burma. 8 of them strafe buildings at Loi wing Airfield, Burma.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 200: 623 B-17's and 154
B-24's are dispatched to hit aviation industry plants in Brunswick, Germany
but cloud cover prevents visual bombing; 597 B-17's hit the secondary target,
the city of Brunswick and 2 others hit targets of opportunity; the B-24's
find dense smoke and contrails over the secondary and 104 bomb Hannover and
39 hit other targets of opportunity; the bombers claim 51-7-27 Luftwaffe
aircraft; 18 B-17's and 2 B-24's are lost, 3 B-17's are damaged beyond repair
and 104 B-17's and 11 B-24's are damaged; casualties are 4 KIA, 14 WIA and
206 MIA. Escort includes 635 P-38's, P-47's and Ninth Air Force P-51's; they
claim 45-15-31 Luftwaffe aircraft; 2 P-38's and 2 P-47's are lost, 2 P-38's,
3 P-47's and 2 P-51's are damaged; casualties are 1 WIA and 4 MIA.
  Mission 201: During the evening, 5 of 5 B-17's drop 1.2 million leaflets
on Chateauroux, Brest, Chartres, Le Mans and Caen, France without loss.
  Mission 202: In a night Oboe Mk II test, 1 B-17 drops 2 bombs on Duren,
Germany.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): The 451st Bombardment Group
(Heavy) with B-24's, becomes operational, making a total of 9 heavy bomber
operational.
  In Italy, B-17's hit airfields and landing grounds at Villaorba, Maniago
and Lavariano; B-24's bomb Udine Airfield and Fier radar station; P-38's
escort the B-17's on the Villaorba and Maniago missions and P-38's and some
RAF Spitfires escort the B-24's on the Udine mission; P-47's carry out a
sweep over the Villaorba area; the B-24's and fighters claim 60+ aircraft
shot down and a larger number destroyed on the ground.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25's hit road
junctions at Valmontone and Genzano di Roma, and bomb the town of Monte
Compatri; weather cancels all B-26 operations and several B-25 missions.
A-20's hit the town of and road junction near Cori, and XII Air Support
Command fighter-bombers hit Sora; US and RAF fighters hit barges and fishing
boats off Zara and Trojica, Yugoslavia; fighters on patrol over Anzio meet
no air opposition.
  415th Night Fighter Squadron, 64th Fighter Wing, transfers from
Montecorvino to Marcianise, Italy with Beaufighters. The detachment operating
from Gaudo Airfield also transfers.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): In the Marshall Islands, P-40's
and P-39's maintain patrols over Mille Atoll, bombing and strafing the
airfield to prevent its use by the enemy against invading US forces; B-24's
maintain all-night strikes against Kwajalein Atoll in preparation for the
invasion the following morning; the invasion of Majuro Atoll begins during
the night of 30/31 Jan.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): 20 P-39's attack Kunrai,
Bougainville Island. On New Britain Island, 26 B-25's, with large fighter
cover, bomb Lakunai Airfield; 18 B-24's, supported by fighters, hit Vunakanau
Airfield; 50 Allied fighters support a USN dive bomber strike on shipping in
the Rabaul area; altogether 20+ Japanese fighters are claimed shot down.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): 34 B-25's bomb the Hansa Bay
area and Nubia landing strip, New Guinea. On New Britain Island, A-20's fly
a barge sweep along the N coast and P-39's strafe barges and fuel dumps at
Rein Bay.
  90th Bombardment Squadron (Light), 3d Bombardment Group (Light), transfers
from Dobodura to Nadzab, New Guinea with A-20's.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 28 Jan 1994 09:03:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Seeking Help

I received my FRIENDS JOURNAL from the USAF Museum the other day and found
a number of letters pertaining to World War II in the FRIENDS REQUESTS
section of the magazine.  So I am posting them to this group in the hope
that someone may be able to assist these people.  Please contact the named
individual if you have any information.

1. 301ST BOMBARDMENT GROUP B-17F SHOT DOWN OVER REGENSBURG
__________________________________________________________

"I am writing on behalf of Mr. Walter Puchwein who was a WWII fighter pilot
with the Luftwaffe.  Walter flew Fw 190s with JG2 "Richtofen".  At he end
of the war he had a total of 12 victories and was shot down himself nine
times and wounded five times.  He is trying to find a B-17F crew which he
shot down on 25 Feb 44 over Regensburg, Germany.  All the crew bailed out
safely to become POWs.  The B-17F, s/n 42-30329, was from Lucera, Italy and
was assigned to the 352d Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 301st Bombardment
Group (Heavy), Fifteenth Air Force.  The crew was:

Pilot: 1st Lt. John E Van Nortwick, O-680339
Co-pilot: 1st Lt. William D Power, O-1040293
Navigator: 2d Lt. Thomas J Thomspons, Jr, O-738799 (Thompson has died)
Bombardier: F/O John C Baronas, T-1581 (already located)
Engineer: T/Sgt Otis B Moye, 34268401
Radio Operator: T/Sgt Peter P Martyniak, 11037303
Ball turret gunner: S/Sgt Gail F Wiand, 32493135
Waist gunner: S/Sgt John C Ballard, 19175801
Tail gunner: S/Sgt Harold J Sbaschnia, 32422897

Contact Russel Ives, 38 Millmoor Rd, Meltham, Huddersfield HD7 3JY, W.
Yorks, England"

2. SEEKING INDIVIDUALS
----------------------

"Requesting any information on Major Ralph V Hansel, who served with the
Eighth Air Force during WWII.  Major Hansel is my great uncle and I am
gathering information for a book about his life.  He served with the Royal
Canadian Air Force as an instructor from 1939 to 1942, when he transferred
to the USAAF.  He was an operations officer in the Eighth.  He was killed
on 11 Dec 43 while flying a B-17 over Germany.  Of special interest would
be any information identifying his group, missions flown, crew members,
plane.  I understand from relatives that there may be some surviving crew
members and I would like to contact them.

Contact Roy Hobbie, 19875 Alpine Dr HVL, Lawrenceburg, IN 47025"

------------------

"On behalf of a good friend in the UK, I am trying to locate a Colonel Si
Richards, who served in the Ninth Air Force during WWII.  Unfortunately the
information available is very skimpy, but it seems that Col. Richards, who
was a United Air Lines pilot before the war, was involved in setting up the
IX Troop Carrier Command operation in Great Britain.  Initially he was
based at Windsor Great Park in Berkshire.  He was also at Newbury, Berks.,
and West Drayton before going to RAF Cottesmore.  My friend would like to
get back in touch with him.  United Air Lines, their pilots' union, and
retiree department have been checked without success.

Ernest McDowell, 1922 W Berenice, Chicago, IL 60613-2722"

3. 16TH OBSERVATION SQUADRON
----------------------------

"Seeking information about the 16th Observation Squadron, which was
stationed at Lawson Field, Ft. Benning, Georgia and was attached to the 2d
Armored Division there.  They left in early (Jan-Feb) 1942.

Contact Bill Kessler, 4909 NW 32d St, Oklahoma City, OK 73122"

(NOTE: The 16th Observation Squadron arrived at Lawson Field on 24 Oct 40
and transferred to Daniel Field, Augusta, Georgia on 9 Feb 42.)

4. 418TH NIGHT FIGHTER SQUADRON
-------------------------------
"Seeking contact with any members of the WWII 418th Night Fighter Squadron.
Author is researching for biography of poet James Dickey.

Contact Harry Hard, Dept. of English, Univ. of William and Mary, Box 8795,
Williamsburg, VA 23187-8795, telephone (804) 221-3905"

[NOTE: The 418th was activated on 1 Apr 43 and trained in the Orlando,
Florida area until 25 Sep 43. They spent the rest of the war in New Guinea
(Nov 43-Sep 44); Schouten Island (Sep-Oct 44); Morotai (Oct-Dec 44);
Philippines (Dec 44-Jul 45); and Okinawa (Jul-Oct 45).]

5. 38TH FIGHTER SQUADRON
------------------------
"Looking for any pilot or individual stationed at Paine Field, Everett,
Washington, with the 38th Fighter Squadron in 1942 that knew James H Hancock.
In particular, Robert B Kelly, Army s/n O-427140; Jerry Ayers from Memphis
(?); Jerald Lienweber; and Dr. Joseph Tracey.

Contact Dave Mahre, 2762 Cook Rd., Yakima, WA 98908, telephone (509)
966-1100.  Collect OK"

(NOTE: The 38th Fighter Squadron, 55th Fighter Group, flew P-38's from
Paine Field between 9 Sep 42 and 23 Aug 43.)

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 28 Jan 1994 10:15:32 -0500
From:    Joshua Norton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: WW II massacres

Dale Lally mentioned "a group of German POW's from the Grossdeutschland division
   were gunned down after a particularly nasty fight in Sicily."  Wasn't the
Grossdeutschland Division on the Eastern Front during this time?

JPN

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 28 Jan 1994 09:41:31 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WW II massacres

>.
>
>     There is a book titled OTHER LOSSES, about the indifference of
>the Western Allies toward German POWs.  This attitude is entirely
>understandable, considering that the Germans had started the war in
>the first place and inflicted such horror and suffering on other
>peoples.
>
Lou,
     If that book you refer to is the one that claims Eisenhower starved a
million POW's, it has been effectively discredited by a number of
historians. Except for some questionable reports, there is just no evidence for
it.  How do you hide a million bodies?
                                       LTC Con Crane
                                       USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 28 Jan 1994 09:50:21 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: WW II massacres

>>shooting of prisoners by both sides.  One amazing film clip showed
>>two German soldiers, clearly surrendering under a white flag.  After
>>a few seconds they were gunned down right in front of the camera.
>
>
>I happened to be watching this show too and I remember just before they
>showed the clip, the narrator (I can't remember if the narrator was a
>G.I.) claiming that German snipers were very unsuccesful in surrendering
>to G.I.s.  There was an unspoken G.I.s policy of making sure that
>German snipers were delt with in a terminal manner.
>
>Ron Babuka
>

Ron,
     John Keegan has an excellent discussion in THE FACE OF BATTLE of the
problem of surrendering in combat throughout history. The transaction takes the
agreement of both parties, and in the heat of battle that is sometimes hard to
achieve.  Even if one party decides to quit fighting, the other may be in too
much of a frenzy or too angry to accept it.  The battlefield is a confusing
and fast-paced environment, and it is sometimes very difficult to recognize the
need to pause and take prisoners.  Americans have generally done better than
most other armies, however.
                                             LTC Con Crane
                                             USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 28 Jan 1994 10:06:59 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: First Raid On Germany

>>The 1st Bombardment Wing dispatched 64 B-17's and the 2d Bombardment Wing
>>dispatched 27 B-24's.  (A complete list of groups and their activities is
>>listed below.)  Leading the mission was Colonel Frank A. Armstrong, Jr.
>>Group Commander of the 306th Bombardment Group (Heavy).  Armstrong had also
>>flown in the lead aircraft on the first B-17 mission to Rouen, France in
>
>I would venture a guess that Col. Armstrong was a role model for the
>character Col. Savage of Twelve O'Clock High (the book & movie).
>
>
>
>"I was a precocious child and obviously destined to be a scientist."
>
>        Dr. Julian "a tribble took it" Gomez
>        Apple Computer, Inc.  408/862-1289 or 996-1010
>        [email-masked]  [email-masked]
>

Julian,
     I have seen some debate on this issue, but Lay and Bartlett, the authors
of the book, worked with Armstrong. The general consensus is that they based
the book on their experiences with him.
                                       LTC Con Crane
                                       USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 28 Jan 1994 11:46:03 -0600
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Churchill & Charmley

Jonah,

     In my Katyn thesis research, I had occasion to interview
revisionist Churchill historian John Charmley.  He was the
visiting Churchill scholar in residence at (the "Iron Curtain"
famous) Westminster College in Fulton, Missouri.

     A bluff, affable fellow, John understood the significance
of Churchill's role in the Katyn coverup.

Lou Coatney, Western Illinois University

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 28 Jan 1994 14:01:39 EST
From:    Ryan O'Neil <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: War criminal ... or unprofessional?  :-)

I would like to address the issue of killing the camp guards by the baby
faced lt.  The guards had been pointed out by their former charges.  This,
if nothing else, was thier "due process."  They had the opportunity to act
in a humane manner, but they chose not to and were sentenced to death only
by thier own actions.  The guards that did not act in sucvh a fashion were
not so executed.  In such a time, that course of action, though seemingly
brutal, spres the former POW's the plight of having to testify in court.
There is a substantial difference between this lt. and lt. Calley.  These
guards had operated a brutal camp that surely caused many men their death
through their own callousnerss.  This is not the slaughtering of innocent vilaa
gers, but the execution of war criminals.  I feel that the salient point is
that the lt. did not kill all of the guards.

                     Ryan O'Neil--  UConn grad student  (please forgive the typ
os)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 28 Jan 1994 17:40:58 -0500
From:    "Robert F. Kieran" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WW II massacres

        From: Warren Thompson <[email-masked]>
        Subject: WW II massacres
        Date: Thu, 27 Jan 1994 14:48:30 -0500

        How likely is it that former members of either LAH or DR knew nothing of
        atrocities? Not bloody likely, given what the former did at Malmedy
        (specifically by Kampfgruppe Peiper)
        and the latter on its way from the

        south of France to Normandy.

Hello, All!!

     One thing to keep in mind is that the attrition rate among ALL
German divisions, especially the frontline Waffen SS divisions, was very
high. What this means is that, while the TO&E (Table Of Organization and
Equipment) for an SS Panzer division called for almost 20,000 men, these
20,000 were constantly being turned over, due to casualties, transfers, etc.

     This means, in effect, that damn few of those 20,000 at Kursk in
1943 were with the division in June of 1941. They would have little personal
knowledge of anything that did not happen in their immediate area, and anything
else would fall in the category of rumor. Things would have deteriorated
even further by 1944, as even the LAH had received drafts of surplus naval
personnel by then, in addition to Volksdeutche drafts as well.

     Remember, too, that, Kampfgruppe Peiper was composed of about 800
men, not a significant slice of the division by any means. Those few
men who did manage to make it back to the division probably were not
very inclined to talk about Malmedy, and fewer still of their collegues
would have been inclinded to listen - they had enough problems of their own.

                                                Regards
                                                Bob Kieran
                                                [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 28 Jan 1994 07:40:48 -0500
From:    Robin Hood <[email-masked]>
Subject: CRYPTOLOGY IN WWII

CAN ANY ONE OUT THERE SEND ME INFORMATION ABOUT BLETCHLEY PARK AND
ULTRA. AM DOING AN ASSIGNMENT ABOUT DATA ENCRYPTION AND WOULD
APPRECIATE INFO RE. WWII. hAVE READ "A MAN CALLED INTREPID" BUT AM
LOOKING FOR AN ACTUAL PICTURE(S) OF THE COMPUTERS ETC. FOUND AT
BLETCHLEY PARK.

THANKS...

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 28 Jan 1994 12:53:33 -0600
From:    Jon Stevens <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Media: Telly Savalas dead

Another war movie actor that was in WWII was Lee Marvin.  In the July 1986
Leatherneck Magazine profiled his service in the Marine Corps in the
Pacific during WWII.   He was at Kwajalein and Saipan as a part of the
4th Marine Div. and was wounded "in the wallet" on Saipan.  He spent a
year in the hospital and was discharged in July 1945.  He says in the
article he really missed the Corps and tried to re-enlist about five months
later.  There is a picture of Lee holdind a Nambu machine gun somewhere
in the Pacific along with the article.  Lee was in 'The Big Red One', 'the
Dirty Dozen', and others.

Jon Stevens --  E-mail [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 28 Jan 1994 12:49:25 -0600
From:    Jon Stevens <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Media and Kelly's Heroes

Joe,

  Thanks for setting me straight about the armor in the movie.  I was just
kidding and not trying to be argumentative.  Please don't take that crack  of
mine from a couple of days ago personally.  I enjoy your quotes from
Kelly's Heroes as do others. Keep it coming.

Jon Stevens

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 28 Jan 1994 13:13:14 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Russian Military Museums

You may be able to research an interesting chapter or so based on
the unusual circumstances in Ireland during WW2.
Being neutral, Ireland had a policy of interning all and any
beligerent nation aircrews from planes landing/crashing on the
Old Sod.
There were two large PW (internee) camps at the Curragh; one holding
Alied aircrew, and the other for Luftwaffe. There's a fair bit of
info available.
Regards

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 28 Jan 1994 13:24:37 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WW II massacres

The SS started shooting PWs early on.
Witness the slaughter in cold blood of two groups of British soldiers
at Paradis, France, near Dunkirk, May 27, 1940.
Ninety-nine men of the Royal Norfolk Regiment, taken prisoner by the
SS Totenkopf Division, were machine-gunned, and the survivors finished
off with bayonets. This is the atrocity reported in the documents
recently released in the UK, to inexpicable "controversy".
BTW: In a rare example of justice being done to war criminals, the SS
officer responsible for the Paradis massacre, Fritz Knoechlein, was
tried by court-martial and hanged in Hamburg, 28 January, 1949.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 28 Jan 1994 12:35:12 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: WW II massacres

You puzzle, and intrigue, me with your mention of "vicious behaviour"
by "Allied troops" towards Frenchwomen during the Dieppe raid.
The Dieppe raid has been something of a long study by me, and yours
is the very first hint of such an acurrence there.
I'd be obliged if you could say where you came across the allegation.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 28 Jan 1994 16:00:00 PST
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Flasher info.

        Hello,  My name is Jennifer Hagood.  I'm a new subscriber who
would like to know more about the submarine Flasher.  If anyone knows
any stories or has any information,  they would be much appreciated.
Thanks Jenny Hagood

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 28 Jan 1994 10:33:00 PST
From:    Carey Stephens <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: WW II massacres

You might also be interested in a book titled _Splinters of a
Nation_, by Alan Kent Powell (Utah Press), that includes the
story of an American guard who went off one night at a Utah
German POW camp and machine-gunned several prisoners.

        -Steve Fox- [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 28 Jan 1994 10:40:00 PST
From:    Carey Stephens <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: POWs

An American fighter pilot shot down in Germany in 1942 related this
story to me, that he had been told by one of his German interrogators:

When two German soldiers got hold of an American pilot who had
been strafing and bombing a village, the trio was approached by
some civilians from the town who demanded that the prisoner be
turned over to them.  When the soldiers refused, the civilians
shot all three dead on the spot.

The pilot who told me this story said that when you saw what
the bombs and bullets did to innocent people this reaction
was understandable.

        -Steve Fox- foxs.axe.humboldt.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 28 Jan 1994 23:56:31 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: FW-190 Upward firing weapons, again :)

On Thu, 27 Jan 1994, Gudmundur Helgason wrote:
>         SG 116, salvo weapon with series of MK 103 barrels eich
> containing a single shell, the shells being fired by a photo electric
> cell or Foto-Zellenfuhler also known as the Magic Eye (Magische Auge).
> These MK 103 barrels were located immediately aft of the cockpit.
>
>         SG 117 ("Rohrblock") a cluster of seven 30mm MK 108 barrels.
> This weapon was similar to the SG 116 but was located in the wings but
> was also a salvo weapon.

Gudmundur,

Continuing this thread, no doubt, beyond the endurance of some WWII-L
members...

I've found a reference that states that the SG 117 'Rohrblock'
seven-barrel cannon was fitted to the Fw 190V74. It says nothing about
photo-cell triggering, only a Revi 242 gunsight. And the Fw 190V75 was
fitted with seven downward-firing 45mm mortars. It claims that these
developments were purely experimental, though.  If only the prototypes
V74 and V75 and possibly anothere one for the SG 116 were fitted with
such weapons, they can not have caused 'half of the US bombers losses at
Schweinfurt'.

Nice to hear more of them, though.

Emmanuel Gustin.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 28 Jan 1994 14:07:37 EST
From:    John Sloan <[email-masked]>
Subject: Documents on WWII

Perhaps list members may be interested in some of the following documents,
which I have typed into my computer. They are much too long to send over the
list, but I can supply them on disk or in paper print out, with a little time
for the latter.  These are of possible value to researchers.
1. The List of Combat Interviews European Theater 1944-45 edited by James
Bradsher. This is a key finding aid to National Archives records in this
group. The breadth of topics is remarkable.
2. List of Miscellaneous Records of the Adjutant General Office WWII ETO,
also edited by James Bradsher. The content of the record group makes
"miscellaneous" an understatement of the year. I can send a summary
description by email.
3. The index to the ETO Board - General Board Reports - These are the reports
prepared by various boards of officers after the war. They are interesting as
after action examinations of the problems and their solutions developed in
the European Theater.
4. The following of these general Boards I have also typed in. Some are very
large.
GB48- Tank - Org equipment, tactics of Armor Div
GB50 - Tank - Org equipment, tactics of separate Tank Bns
GB51 - Tank - Armor Group
GB52 - Tank - Armor Special Equipment
GB59 - Arty - Study of Org andEquip of Field Arty units
GB60 - Arty - Org, Equipment, tactics of Tank Destroyer units
GB61 - Arty - Field Arty operations
GB67 - Arty - Field Arty Material

5. Special report from the Tank Destroyer School on TAnk Destroyer operations
in Tunisia. published 50 years ago - January 1944. Contains several small
unit operations and action diaries.

All this was undertaken in an effort to make this kind of stuff available to
researchers, but I gave up after this much as it overwhelmed me. But if there
is interest I could continue.
John Sloan

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 28 Jan 1994 23:37:18 EST
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Esq." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Churchill & Charmley

Lou - Prof Charmley has spoken in the UK at a meeting of the
International Churchill Society and his currentbook has been extensively
debated in the ICS magazine "Finest Hour." The book was slammed
in the New York Times Book review on a number of counts (including
ignoring the Holocaust). I still hope to find time to read it soon so
that I can keep an intellectual honesty about my boyhood hero, Winston
Churchill. Thanks for writing! - Jonah
> Jonah,
>
>      In my Katyn thesis research, I had occasion to interview
> revisionist Churchill historian John Charmley.  He was the
> visiting Churchill scholar in residence at (the "Iron Curtain"
> famous) Westminster College in Fulton, Missouri.
>
>      A bluff, affable fellow, John understood the significance
> of Churchill's role in the Katyn coverup.
>
> Lou Coatney, Western Illinois University

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 28 Jan 1994 23:46:11 EST
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Esq." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: CRYPTOLOGY IN WWII

Robin - I have in my library, but have not yet read, "Seizing the
Enigma" by David Kahn (Houghton Mifflin, 1991) There are some photos
in the middle of the book. Regards to Maid Marion! - Jonah Triebwasser
Marist College - [email-masked]
> CAN ANY ONE OUT THERE SEND ME INFORMATION ABOUT BLETCHLEY PARK AND
> ULTRA. AM DOING AN ASSIGNMENT ABOUT DATA ENCRYPTION AND WOULD
> APPRECIATE INFO RE. WWII. hAVE READ "A MAN CALLED INTREPID" BUT AM
> LOOKING FOR AN ACTUAL PICTURE(S) OF THE COMPUTERS ETC. FOUND AT
> BLETCHLEY PARK.
>
> THANKS...

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 27 Jan 1994 to 28 Jan 1994
*************************************************