Subject: WWII-L Digest - 11 Jan 1994 to 12 Jan 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 1994 00:00:25 -0500

There are 27 messages totalling 932 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Gen: Radio Free Europe (2)
  2. USAAF 12 JAN 44
  3. GEN re: US aircraft manuals (2)
  4. Czechs and WWII
  5. David Irving (2)
  6. TECH/TAC: DeGaulle as a 'blitzkrieg' proponent
  7. SS Units. (2)
  8. TAC:  use of recon batallions
  9. Bookstores with WWII books (4)
 10. Question: re. Patton. (3)
 11. Correction on Soviet population losses
 12. Astra's "front"
 13. Articles of War in Skokie
 14. Gen Vlasov and Prague
 15. Question About Naval Warfare (2)
 16. Waffen-SS
 17. Icelandic casualities in WWII

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 07:14:34 +0100
From:    Richard Cummings <[email-masked]>
Subject: Gen: Radio Free Europe

Many of you of the List have expressed an interest in what
is happening at Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (RFE/RL).
For those not interested, I apologize for putting this on
the WWII list, since it is not directly related (indirectly
since RFE/RL grew out of the WWII years). Here is one
news item about the most recent developments:

Radio Free Europe Chief Quits<
   WASHINGTON (AP) - William W. Marsh has resigned as head of
Radio Free Europe and Radio Liberty which broadcast news to
eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union, the Board of International
Broadcasting announced Tuesday.
   It said his letter to the board indicated he was quitting over
the prospect that the stations' headquartewould move from
Munich, Germany, to Prague in the Czech Republic.
   The resignation was accepted, effective immediately.
   "The board wishes to make it clear that no decision has been
made on a Prague move," the announcement said.
   It added that the proposal is beingtudied by the board and by
the stations' management with the help of Arthur Andersen and
Companyn international consulting and accounting firm. The study
will only be completed in "some weeks," it said.
   When the study is done, the board will make its recmmendations
to President Clinton and to Congress, where bills are pending on
the stations' fut.
   There has been a long debate over whether they should remain
independent. President Clinton's administration has proposed that
they be consolidated with the Voice of America, which is under
direct government control and also broadcasts to the area.
   Action is expected in the Senate at the end of January, but it
may be several months before the two houses of Cngress agree on a
bill to be sent to the president.
   Founded in 1949 and staffed by anti-Communiist emigres, the
stations were formerly under control of the U.S. Central
Intelligence Agency. That ended in the 1970s and they were placed
under an independent bord. Marsh. 61, took over last November as
the stations' chief executive after a 30-year career in
international broadcasting.

--==oo00oo==--
[email-masked]
RFE/RL Inc
Munich,Germany

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 07:12:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: USAAF 12 JAN 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
WEDNESDAY, 12 JANUARY 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-24, Douglas Dauntless
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 20+ B-25's and P-38's hit the
marshalling yard at Letpadan, damaging warehouses, engine sheds, and other
buildings; the fighters also strafe Myohaung, setting 3 buildings afire.
  27th Troop Carrier Squadron, Tenth Air Force (attached to the Troop
Carrier Command, Eastern Air Command), arrives at Sylhet, India from the US
with C-47's.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 14 B-24's bomb the Bangsue marshalling yard
at Bangkok, Thailand.
  HQ 69th Composite Wing transfers from Kunming to Tsuyung, China.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 389th Fighter Squadron, 366th
Fighter Group, arrives at Membury, England from the US with P-47's; first
mission is 14 Mar.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Italy, P-47's fly a fighter
sweep in the Rome area, strafing the marshalling yard at Teramo and buildings
between the Tronto and Tesino Rivers.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): Colonel Archibald Y Smith assumes
command of the XII Air Force Training and Replacement Command.
  In Italy, B-25's and B-26's bomb the Giulianova railway bridge and attack a
dam and road bridge; A-20's hit San Donato; P-40's attack a vessel in the
Krka River of Yugoslavia, hit enemy defensive positions at San Biagio
Saracinesa, Sant' Elia Fiumerapido, Monte Trocchio, and Atina, and bomb
Vallerotonda; A-36's attack the Avezzano railroad yards, a village near
Atina, railroad facilities at Cisterna di Latina, and numerous trucks and
train cars in the Rome area.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): 21 A-24's from Makin Island,
Gilbert Islands dive-bomb AA positions and the storage area on Mille
Atoll, Marshall Islands and 20 supporting P-39's strafe runways.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 13
B-25's of the 42d Bombardment Group (Medium), on their first mission against
the Rabaul area, bomb Vunakanau Airfield in the early morning, and 16 B-24's
hit Lakunai Airfield during the night of 12/13 Jan; 19 B-24's, with an escort
of about 50 fighters, pound the airstrip and other targets at Tobera. On
Bougainville Island, 3 flights of P-39's bomb and strafe Teop, Inus Point,
Numa Numa, and Piano Mission; other aircraft on armed reconnaissance and
sweeps hit several targets of opportunity throughout the Bougainville area.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, B-24's and
B-25's attack the Alexishafen area and A-20's hit Warai. B-24's attack
Balikpapan, Borneo; Makassar, Celebes Island; and Dili, Timor Island.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 08:31:33 -0500
From:    "Sidney W. Kitchel" <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN re: US aircraft manuals

Steve Alvin writes:
|->
|-> Interestingly enough, Edward Jablonski reproduces much of the
|-> pilot's manual for the B-17 in his book *Flying Fortress*.  It
|-> includes the section on how to ditch the Fortress.

        The pilot manuals for many WWII US aircraft are still
available in reproduction. I've seen ones for the B-17, F6U,
P-51, C-47, P-38, usw. You might want to contact the bookstore at the
U.S. Air Force Museum in Dayton. Other museums that specialize in
historical aircraft should also have them.

                                                        --Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel           [email-masked], [email-masked]
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 08:28:39 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Czechs and WWII

George,

Did you receive my post on that address in Brno? Your latest query
would suggest that you didn't.

Please advise.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 09:34:56 -0500
From:    Akira Takiguchi <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: David Irving

LTC Con Crane wrote:
> I got the information from a letter from Max Rosenberg in the April 1973 issue
>of AIR FORCE MAGAZINE.  It quoted the figures of the Dresden police chief
>(35,000) and discussed Irving's acknowledgement that those figures were more
>accurate than his.

     Thank you for the source info.  The reason I had special interest
in this figure is because translator's note of _Slaughterhouse-Five_
(Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.) says: "... The estimated number of killed ranges from
35,000 to 200,000.  Dresden police department gives a conservative
estimate of 135,000, which is generally considered as the 'official' figure."

     This note was written in 1978.  I suspect that translator might have
been wrong to say that 135,000 was given by Dresden Police - it could have
been Irving's.  (Irving's _Destruction of Dresden_ is quoted in the book.
So it goes :-)

     It might be worth to check it again NOW;  For example, the estimated
number of killed in Tokyo Air Raid has been changing.  To make matters worse,
Tokyo metropolitan government and Defense Ministry have different ideas,
last I heard.

     I know, the number is not important.  *silent tribute*
--
      Akira Takiguchi  VP, ATSON, Inc.  (a subsidiary of the Asahi Shimbun)
             CANAL TOWER  9-3 Nihonbashi-Koamicho Chuo-ku Tokyo 103  Japan
   +81 3 3666 2881(voice) 2882(fax)  EMAIL TO <[email-masked]>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 09:00:04 -0600
From:    Astra M Apsitis-1 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Gen: Radio Free Europe

Sorry to continue on a subject that falls a little outside scope, but an
interesting note on the following:

>    (radio free europe)
 Founded in 1949 and staffed by anti-Communiist
emigres, the > stations were formerly under control of the U.S. Central
> Intelligence Agency.

To the general public, Radio Free Europe was funded by the mysterious Free
Europe Committee which somehow managed to raise the funds needed to run a
full-time radio station as well as the funds needed to run other
anti-communist agencies such as the Assembly for captive European Nations
through "private donors".  The committee board was made up of respectable
private businesspeople.  Only later (in the 1960's) was it disclosed that
Free Europe Committee was just a front for CIA operations.

ok--back on track...

astra

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 10:16:28 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TECH/TAC: DeGaulle as a 'blitzkrieg' proponent

>DeGaulle was an advocate of mechanized/armored warfare in the 1930's.
>
>How close were his proposals to blitzkrieg as actually practiced by the
>Germans? How workable were they -- were they realistic, or idealized?
>
>Robert George
>[email-masked]
>

Robert,
     Look at Robert Doughty's SEEDS OF DISASTER.  It covers DeGaulle's theories
and their influence, and provides some background sources.

                                        LTC Con Crane
                                        USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 10:08:28 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN re: US aircraft manuals

>Steve Alvin writes:
>|->
>|-> Interestingly enough, Edward Jablonski reproduces much of the
>|-> pilot's manual for the B-17 in his book *Flying Fortress*.  It
>|-> includes the section on how to ditch the Fortress.
>
>        The pilot manuals for many WWII US aircraft are still
>available in reproduction. I've seen ones for the B-17, F6U,
>P-51, C-47, P-38, usw. You might want to contact the bookstore at the
>U.S. Air Force Museum in Dayton. Other museums that specialize in
>historical aircraft should also have them.
>
>                                                        --Sid
>--
>Sidney W. Kitchel           [email-masked], [email-masked]
>Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
>4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
>Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121

Sidney,
     The ZENITH BOOKS catalogue also offers many of them, though they are
expensive.
                              LTC Con Crane
                              USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 10:29:11 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: SS Units.

In Jon's message of 11 Jan 1994 at 1404 CST, he writes:

> The Russians actually let some SS personnel live? It was my
> understanding that the death's head insignia meant just that for any
> SS soldier unfortunate enough to find himself in the hand's of the
> Russians.
>
> ------------------------------------------------
> above message from : [email-masked]
> ------------------------------------------------

Hi Jon,

I've not heard of the Russians using former SS but I do know they
were used in Argentina, Paraguay and other South American countries.
I seem to remember that a GESTAPO chief was head of security police
in Syria during the Arab / Israeli wars.  I want to say it was
Heinrich Muller but I'm not sure.  He was GESTAPO chief under
Reinhard Heydrich.  Anybody got better data on this???? Help!

Regards,  Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 11:53:49 EST
From:    Charles Reace <[email-masked]>
Subject: TAC:  use of recon batallions

Stream of conciousness:  DeGaulle and armor tactics . . . German armor
tactics . . . remembering reading von Luck's _Panzer_Commander_ and how
during the advance into Russia it was "just keep advancing".

Recalling Hans von Luck's account, it struck me that during his part
in the Russian campaign ('41-early '42) and in North Africa, the use
of the Recce Batallions in the panzer divsions was not exactly what I
would have expected.  During this period he was part of or in command
of the recon batallion, and it seemed that it usually fought as a
batallion, making it essentially another major maneuver element for
the division.  A company or two might be detached occaisionally for
true recon work, but generally the batallion fought as unit.

My question is, does anybody know if this was standard practice in
the German divisions throughout the war?  And for that matter, how about
the armored cavalry batallion usually part of the US armored divisions:
did they fight as a unit or were they usually broken up and parcelled
out for pure recon work?

Charles

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <[email-masked]>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 15:59:50 GMT
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <[email-masked]>
Subject: Bookstores with WWII books

Good day, would anyone have with him information on a good book store
that would have a mail order section that would deal with WWII books,
preferably also out of print books. I need mostly u-boat books but also
other books about WWII navies and the fighting in general, including Air
Forces and Armies.

Thank you for your time.

Gudmundur Helgason

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 12:34:00 EST
From:    "W. C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Question: re. Patton.

I was looking through our University's tour brochure and saw that
they were offering a tour to Normandy for the 50th anniversary of
D-Day.  In the itenerary, they mentioned a visit to the gravesite
of Gen. Patton.  Exactly where is this site?  I had always assumed
that after his death, his body was returned to the states.

Bill
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 12:31:09 -0400
From:    george urbaniak F <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Correction on Soviet population losses

I would like to bring to the attention of those scholars interested in the
problem of Soviet losses the publication of "Grif sekretnocti sniat:
poteri vooruzhenn'ich sil SSSR v voinach, boev'ich deistviach i boennich
Konfliktach (ed. G.F. Krivosheev) which was published by the Institute of
Military History at the Russian Academy of Sciences.  It is by far the
most detailed discussion of losses in all wars in which the Soviet Union
took part.  It is chock full of statistics about losses by front,
battle, army, rank.  It is probably as accurate as material in the Soviet
archives permits. If I remember correctly the authors believe the figure
of total losses for the Soviet Union was around 28 million and of these
3.7 million were Red Army soldiers who died at the front. The most
suprising evidence they provide is for the enormous and disproportionate
losses of Germany's Allies on the Eastern Front esp. among the Rumanians,
Hungarians and Italians.

On Thu, 6 Jan 1994, Cathy Lewis wrote:

> The study on losses in population growth resulting from World War II on the
> USSR was not done by Murray Feshbach, but was a Soviet study. The estimate was
> that by 1959, the Soviet Union had 50 million fewer people than it would have,
> had normal population growth continued from 1941. This study takes into
> account the slowed population recovery due to the absence of males first the
> first generation after the war. The citation is: V.V. Pokshiishevskii,
> _Geografiia naseleniia sssr: ekonomiko-geograficheskie ocherki_ (Moscow,
> Proveshchenie, 1971).
>
> Would you all find it useful to tally up the numbers? Now that we've gotten
> this far, I would find it instructive to know exactly what magnitude we're
> talking about. With only figures on the Soviets, concentration camp victims
> and Chin a, I have a total of 62 million (77 million, if one counts the
> morerecent Soviet numbers). It there a classic article out there on this
> subject? And does anyone know what the world population was in 1939? I'll be
> keeping a tally as the numbers come in. Right now, we seem to be talking about
> 5%+ of the world population dying within the period of one decade.
>
> Cathleen S. Lewis ([email-masked])
> National Air and Space Museum
> Smithsonian Institution

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 13:49:00 EST
From:    Charles Reace <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Bookstores with WWII books

Gudmundur, I'd recommend you contact the U.S. Naval Institute.  The
prices aren't the best unless you get a USNI membership, in which case
you generally get a 20% discount.

   U.S. Naval Institute
   Customer Service
   2062 Generals Highway
   Annapolis MD 21401

Phone:  800-233-8764 or 410-224-3378
Fax:  410-224-2406

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <[email-masked]>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 13:47:17 -0500
From:    Justin Gustainis SUNY-Plattsburgh <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Bookstores with WWII books

A good source for out-of-print World War II books is The War Room, 31 McKinley Ave.,Washington, NJ 07882 (908) 689-8256.  I believe they deal in mail order
exclusively.  Call or write for their current catalog.

Justin Gustainis
Department of Communication
SUNY-Plattsburgh

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 13:02:03 -0600
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Astra's "front"

Regardless of Radio Free Europe's funding, it performed
  a necessary service covering the reptilian antics of the
  Soviets and their proxies.

Frequently, it investigated issues that (leftwing) media and
  academia wouldn't touch.

To those behind the Iron Curtain, it certainly wasn't "just a
  front."  It still exerts a democratizing influence in Europe,
  and there still seems to be a need for that, as Europeans
  reconcile with each other to rebuild their Continent into the
  leader/superpower that it can and should be.

The astronomical hypocrisy of some academics, concerning
  democratizing efforts by the U.S. (people and) government
  only grows more perverse, it seems.

Lou Coatney (speaking for hisself)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 13:03:15 -0600
From:    John Lundstrom <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Bookstores with WWII books

My favorite military bookstore is Articles of War Ltd., 8806 Bronx Ave.,
Skokie, Illinois 60077  (708) 674-7445. Bob Ruman, the owner, goes out
of his way to get military books from all over the world and maintains
a strong stock of used books as well.
        John Lundstrom   [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 13:15:54 -0600
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Articles of War in Skokie

I'll second John Lundstrom's recommendation of A/W.  I found
  some of the old Almark naval camouflage books, including one
  on Tribal class destroyers for $12!  not to mention other
  treasures.

(Apologies to fellow wargamers:  I pretty well cleaned out
  the zip-lock copies of S&T "classics" which I have used to
  re-mint my magazine issues.)

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 11:58:56 -0600
From:    Jon Stevens <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Gen Vlasov and Prague

George and others,

  Vlasov, in the fall of 1944, had recieved the go ahead from Himmler to
set up the Committee for the Liberation of the Peoples of Russia.  The
major part of the Committe was the Russian Army of LIberation.  Prague was
chosen by Vlasov to issue the proclamation declaring the formation of the
Committee because it was Slavic territory.  Soviet territory would have
been prefered for the proclamation  but no part of the Soviet Union was still
controlled by the Germans.  The Proclamation, known as the Prague
Manifesto, called for the overthrow of Stalin and for the formation of a
government described as 'progressive social democratic' with individual
freedoms.  Vlasov and other Russians involved in the Commitee wanted to be
seen as linking up with the Russian Revolution of 1917 and not just a
mercenary group.  It also contained a veiled appeal to the Americans and
English in the hope that when the Germans were defeated the Allies would
turn against Stalin.

On November 14, 1944, the Committee met in Prague and Vlasov was elected
President. They met at the Hotel Alcron.  The basic idea of the commitee
was to unify all the units of former Soviets fighting in France, Italy,
Yugoslavia, and the Eastern Front.  Thorwald estimates that this
included between 900,00 and 1,000,000 Soviets.  By May, 1945, there were
still 700,000 Soviets listed in the German forces.  Two divisions were to
be formed from gathering the far flung anti-Stalin troops.

On April 13, 1945, the First Vlasov Division was first used in battle.  As
part of Army Group Schorner it was given the task of eliminating a small
Soviet bridgehaed. The attack could not penetrate the defenses of the
Soviets and returned to its training area in Czechoslovakia.

At the beginning of May the Vlasov divisions had been contacted by the  Czech
resistance about liberating the Czech from the remaining Germans.
Thorwald reports Vlasov saying that this would be the wrong course to
take.  He had been in contact with Klecanda, the Czech general who had
fought under Kolchak in the ussian Civil War, who told him most Czechs
would hail the Red Army because Benes, the old Czech president, would be
returning with them.  Vlasov realized that would be delivering the country
to bolshevism but gave the go ahead for the Vlasov divisions to act.

On May 4, the Czech Nationalists concluded a pact with the division to
fight bolshevism and fascism.  On May 7, The division reached Prague.  The
airport was captured and fierce skirmishes were fought with the SS in the
city.  By 5pm the fighting was over.  300 Russians had been killed in the
fighting. The next day a provisional government was formed by the Czechs
dominated by communists.  The enthusiasm for the Vlasov troops quickly
disappeared when Red flags and pictures of Slalin appeared.  The
nationalist Czechs abandoned the Vlasov troops and they quickly withdrew
from the city.  Vlasov was not personaaly involved in the liberation of
Prague.  The Vlasov troops continued their southwesterly  retreat
in hopes of meeting up with American or British forces while being
harassesd by Czech partisans.

During attempted negotiations with Gen. Patch (US I don't know what division)
Vlasov was being escorted by tanks for further surrender negotiations when
the column was blocked by a single Soviet vehicle.  Vlasov was kidnapped
by the Soviets.  The American troops did not interfere although they
heavily outgunned the Soviets.

I reported that Vlasov was executed in 1948.  He was actually hung
in August 1946 along with about a dozen of his staff for treason,
terroristic activities, and espionage.

---from Jurgen Thorwald _The Illusion Soviet Soldiers in Hitler's
Armies_,  1975

One additional book of interest to Vlasov:
    _ Against Stalin and Hitler_  Wilfried Strik-Strikfeldt
    Strikfeldt was a German officer who worked closely with Vlasov untill
    the end. He was a Baltic German and had served in the Imperial Russian
    Army.

 Correction:
Thorwald's book covers all the 'Eastern Volunteers' not just Vlasov

PS-- Staufenburg was one of the originals involved in the project of
raising a Anti-Stalin-anti-bolshevik Russian army.

 Does this help at all George?
 Do you have any info from the Czechs on the liberation of Prague and
 Vlasov?

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 15:29:30 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Question: re. Patton.

>I was looking through our University's tour brochure and saw that
>they were offering a tour to Normandy for the 50th anniversary of
>D-Day.  In the itenerary, they mentioned a visit to the gravesite
>of Gen. Patton.  Exactly where is this site?  I had always assumed
>that after his death, his body was returned to the states.
>
>Bill
>[email-masked]

Bill,
     His funeral service was held in Heidelberg, and he is buried alongside
many of his soldiers in Hamm, Luxembourg.
                                             LTC Con Crane
                                             USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 16:49:35 EST
From:    "CARL WERNKE (TCWERNC@VCCSCENT)" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Question About Naval Warfare

 X-To: [email-masked]
 TO: MULTIPLE RECIPIENTS OF LIST WWII-L ([email-masked]

 Gudmundur,

 I am sorry that I can't answer your questions listed in your post of 1 Jan 94,
 at 17:37:25. My area of interest is the Imperial Japanese Navy, 1930 to 1945.
 However, the following are excellent sources of references with their mailing
 addresses.

     1.   Naval Historical Center
          901 M. Street SE
          Washington DC  20374-5060

          The main telephone numbers are 202-433-2210 or 202-433-2553

      2.  Dr.Carl Boyd
          Graduate Program Director
          Department of History
          Old Dominion University
          Norfolk VA  23529-0091

      Dr.Boyd was one of my professors in graduate school. He was a
      submariner in the U.S.Navy and is very knowledgeable regarding
      the German and Japanese navies.

      3.   Mr.Norman Polmar
           4302 Dahill Place
           Alexandria  VA  22312

      Mr.Polmar is currently writing a book on torpedoes, and is
      internationally known for his writing on naval weapons systems.

      4.  Messrs. Barry Zerby or Richard von Doenhoff
          Military Reference Branch
          National Archives
          Washington DC

          202-501-5350

      5.  Messrs. John Butler or Richard Boylan
          Military Section
          National Archives
          Suitland MD

          202-501-5671  or  301-763-7410

      Also try Robert Gannon ([email-masked]), who is also writing
      a book on torpedoes.

      I am sorry that I can not be more definitive.

      I wish you success in your research.

      CARL WERNKE
      [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 16:36:34 EST5EDT
From:    Jon Kay <[email-masked]>
Subject: Waffen-SS

=|>>      Frankly, I'm surprised we didn't just turn all the SS over
=|>> to the Soviets categorically.
=|>
=|>I guess it's because we have this annoying thing called "justice," and
=|>under our system we require that an individual be found guilty of something
=|>before we punish them.  Where war crimes could be attributed to
=|>individuals, we tried the people and punished them.
=|>

As I understand it (correct me if I am wrong) the SS, unlike other
German divisions, was an all-volunteer squad, composed of men who
joined knowing full well that they would be responsible for the most
morally questionable (I hope that euphemism please everyone)
assignments of the war. If this is true (and I am waiting for someone
to correct me if they know this to not the case) then the two
elements of guilt are present: Evil intention and Evil action. I
don't think that men were forced into the SS. If conscripted, could
not soldiers simply enter into the ranks of the rank and file
infantry?
------------------------------------------------
above message from : [email-masked]
------------------------------------------------

"How wrong Emily Dickinson was!  Hope is not "the thing with
feathers."  The thing with feathers has turned out to be my nephew.
I must take him to a specialist in Zurich."

                            - Woody Allen (who else?)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 16:39:18 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: David Irving

In Akira's message of 12 Jan 1994 at 0910 CST, he writes:

>      It might be worth to check it again NOW;  For example, the estimated
> number of killed in Tokyo Air Raid has been changing.  To make matters worse,
> Tokyo metropolitan government and Defense Ministry have different ideas,
> last I heard.
>
>      I know, the number is not important.  *silent tribute*
> --
>       Akira Takiguchi  VP, ATSON, Inc.  (a subsidiary of the Asahi Shimbun)

True, too true.  We get so caught up in numbers that are so large as
to be unmanageable cognitively.  Imagine trying to have a
conversation individually with 35,000 people.  If you talked to each
one for an hour, one after the other, non-stop it would take you
1,458 days or almost 4 years.  The numbers are staggering but the
*point* is the tremendous waste wars generate.  Where does the answer
lie?  Dresden was just one raid.  Germany was just one country.
Europe was just one theater, World War Two was just one war....
Orders of magnitude of losses, both in terms of human lives and
physical destruction to cities.  Is there an answer?  I don't have
one.

Thanks, Akira.  I don't mean to preach but it is sometimes necessary
to reflect on the costs to humanity of this topic we so enjoy studying
>from the safe distance of some 50 years.

                   Cheers, Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 17:25:53 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Question: re. Patton.

In Bill's message of 12 Jan 1994 at 1335 CST, he writes:

> I was looking through our University's tour brochure and saw that
> they were offering a tour to Normandy for the 50th anniversary of
> D-Day.  In the itenerary, they mentioned a visit to the gravesite
> of Gen. Patton.  Exactly where is this site?  I had always assumed
> that after his death, his body was returned to the states.
>
> Bill
> [email-masked]

Hi Bill,

Trusting my lousy sense of direction again, I will say that Patton is
buried in Luxembourg in the general area of the Battle of the Bulge
(his most noted achievement).  It was his wish to be buried with his
soldiers.  He once said something to the effect that "the extent of a
nation's influence is marked by the graves of its soldiers".

The exact cite is near the Belgium and German boarders in Luxembourg.
If you visit that area you can't miss it.  Most folks in that area
are quite familiar with it.

If you go, be sure to visit some of the super museums in the area.
Arlon, Bastogne and Diekirch all have fine museums but the towns
around there have German tanks and artillery mounted as monuments
too.  Houffalize has a Panther that rather abruptly confronts you if
you come into town from the west.  It really sends a chill down your
back as you come whizzing around a corner and there is a Pzkfw V with
it's high velocity 75mm pea-shooter pointed at your windshield!  Last
time I was there they took a valve cover off the engine and stuck it
under the gun mantle to prop the gun up.  It now points at a drugstore
across the street :-/

Bastogne has a number of US Sherman tanks and turrets in different
parts of the town.  Of course, there is the wall of remembrance at
Malmedy which lists the names of the soldiers who were massacred
there (and some of the Belgian civilians that disappeared at the same
time too as I recall).

There is also a Tiger II on display in front of a small museum in the
town of La Gleize.  That tank still has ordnance stuck in its armor
that looks like a stone thrown into firm mud.  The shot that I
remember hit the point in the front where both armor plates meet
forming that horizontal line between the two drive sprockets.  It took
another shot to finish it off as the interior is completely cooked.
The ammunition on board apparently went up too because the hull is
actually split over the left track due to the force of the secondary
explosions.  I'd be real surprised if anybody walked away from that
wreck unless they bailed out after the first hit.

Cheers, Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Jan 1994 00:45:46 GMT
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: SS Units.

Mr. Bill Huber

        I read somewhere that Gestapo Muller defected to the Soviets
during the final days of the war, or possibly a while after the may 7th.
He has, as far as I know, never been located anywhere since but was
presumed to be living east of the Iron Curtain from then on. I also
think that he had some kind of socialist past that could explain his
move to the Soviets and not to the South America.
        The Soviets seem to have let at least some SS men live, I read
only a short time ago a newsclip about the finding of KGB documents
about the captured Danish members of the elite Waffen SS unit 'Viking'.
Apparently the Norwegian Government "bought" their formed captured men
home while the Danish just let their own rot in Siberia. I think that
the main number of Viking personnel captured was around Cherkassy in feb
1944 when the 'Viking' has encircled and almost wiped out.

I hope this helps, but I would also like to have more info in this :)

Gudmundur Helgason

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Jan 1994 01:28:58 GMT
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Icelandic casualities in WWII

        Dear mr. Lou Coatney,
        Redarding your qoute about what Icelanders were doing to help
stopping the war in Europe I only knew this myself about a year ago. The
amazing truth is that Iceland suffered among the highest casuality
rating in the whole world at that time (just in the first 7 months of
war we lost 90 seamen, which would account for about 90.000 USN crewmembers
if applied to the U.S. scale).
        The majority of these deaths is mine-related but there were also
some strange incidents that I hesitate to bring up (I dont want any hate
mail :) But we lost at least two full size trawlers that were aparently
sunk with all hands and the British have never explained why. Also we
lost two people-carrying transportes with number of fatalities and
several other attacks were made.

        Again to the Waffen-SS: What I meant was that the 'Viking' unit
has never been linked with war crimes and was truly an elite fighting
unit that is among the best the world has ever had. Majority of the
members were young (naive perhaps) Scandinavian men that were fighting
against the Russian but who used the German vehicle to do it. The
Norwegians "bought" their captives back home after the war while the
Danish did not.

        What was the imprisonment for the Germans in the hands of the
US/UK? 2 years? I think that 10 years was the usual time in Russia which
is ridiculus (and many were much longer than that even some American's
which had slavic sounding names).

Yes, Coatney, My offsprings (if any :) will be "Gudmunds- dottir (girl)
and  son (a son). I promise you that tracing an Icelandic family tree is
no picnic :)

Gudmundur Helgason

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 22:19:28 -0500
From:    Bob Smart <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Question About Naval Warfare

>
>       2.  Dr.Carl Boyd
>           Graduate Program Director
>           Department of History
>           Old Dominion University
>           Norfolk VA  23529-0091
>
>       Dr.Boyd was one of my professors in graduate school. He was a
>       submariner in the U.S.Navy and is very knowledgeable regarding
>       the German and Japanese navies.

Small world time. Dr Boyd was my undergrad advisor at ODU. One of my favorite
instructors too.  Any chance he is on-line down at ODU?  I have a copy of a
paper he did on Japanese Submarine ops in the Indian Ocean (It's in one of
these boxes around here :-)) Lets see that was 1977-80 If I remember
correctly.  I was stationed at Langley and driving over to ODU 2-4 nights a
week.

Bob Smart ([email-masked])

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 11 Jan 1994 to 12 Jan 1994
*************************************************