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There are 6 messages totalling 214 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. 10 Feb 1940,"They broke in like mad dogs"
  2. ARC: CROSSING THE ATLANTIC IN THE QUEENS ELIZABETH (3)
  3. ARC: SPINOFFS FROM LETTERS HOME (2)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Jan 1994 01:53:03 EST5EDT
From:    Jon Kay <JONKAY@MINMET.LAN.MCGILL.CA>
Subject: Re: 10 Feb 1940,"They broke in like mad dogs"

I would also like to thank you for that account. Postings of that
sort remind me of words I saw in a Time magazine review of
Schindler's List : "...To describe the unspeakable through the
diminutive..." (or words to that effect).
It is through the accounts of the lowest men on the totem pole that
the decisions of the generals may be seen with true perspective.
By the way, if anyone hasn't seen Schindler's List yet, they really
should. It is an excellent film, of particular interest to people
(such as WWII-L list subscribers) knoledgeable of and sensitive to
the historical context.
--- Leaves of 3, let it be... Leaves of 4, eat some more !!! ---

above message from : JONKAY@MINMET.LAN.MCGILL.CA

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Jan 1994 17:23:59 +0100
From:    John Ausland <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: ARC: CROSSING THE ATLANTIC IN THE QUEENS ELIZABETH

                     THE QUEENS ELIZABETH
                      by John C. Ausland

     A burst of extravagence coaxed my wife and me to return
recently from the US on the Queen Elizabeth 2, the pride of the
Cunard Line.  It is the only ocean liner now routinely carrying
passengers across the Atlantic.  Even then, it does this only
part of the year.  The rest of the time it caters to those who
prefer to cruise in warmer climes.
     As we sped from New York to Southampton, my mind wandered
back more than once to my first Atlantic crossing, in the first
days of 1944.  Since there were some 15,000 passengers aboard the
QE 1, as compared with some 1,500 on the QE 2, it does not take
much fantasy to realize there were some dissimilarities in the
voyages.
     The main difference had nothing to do with space or even the
weather, which was much more agreeable in September than mid-
winter.  Nor did it have to do with food or entertainment,
attractions which make peacetime ocean travel so appealing.  The
greatest difference was that this time my fellow passengers and
I did not have to worry about the German submarines which haunted
the Atlantic during World War II.
     In retrospect, it is nothing short of a miracle that the
Queen Elizabeth and the Queen Mary were able repeatedly to cross
the Atlantic safely from 1942 to 1945.  Since they went so fast,
they sailed on their own, rather than in convoys.  Had the
Germans been able to sink the Queen on which I traveled, General
Eisenhower would not only have lost an infantry division.  He
would also have had to wait longer for the units scheduled to
come on subsequent voyages.  Since Churchill traveled to
Washington several times on these ships, a lucky German torpedo
could have bagged a precious prize.
     As it was, the only damage to one of the Queens was when
either the Mary or a British warshsip zigged when it should have
zagged, and they collided.
     Before the US took over the Elizabeth, the Australians had
been using it to transport troops.  They managed to squeeze only
some 4,000 soldiers on board.  When the Americans took it over,
they used all available space for bunks and nearly quadrupled
this number.  As a result, I shared a cabin for two with nine
other officers.  The enlisted men slept in shifts, with one shift
on deck and the other below.  With the sea was so rough, many
of them could not stand their overcrowded and smelly quarters and
spent most of their time on deck.
     The ten meter high seas also left most of us indifferent to
the food.  There is evidently some defect in my inner ear,
because I do not get seasick.  There were twelve of us at the
table when we sailed out of New York.  Each meal the number
diminished, until the British steward had only two of us to look
after.
     Since the QE 2 crossing was very smooth, the dining room was
always full.  Ocean liner menus are notoriously generous, and
these were no exception.  The problem was to choose among the
various delicacies and to eat sufficiently modestly that you did
not always feel full.  This problem did not appear on the wartime
crossing, since the menus were limited, and the seas discouraged
overconsumption.
     The biggest problem on the QE 2 was choosing between
diversions.  Each evening, the cabin steward slipped the next
days program under our cabin door.  Entertainment was available
at any hour of the day and much of the night.  If none of it
appealed to you, you could fall back on numerous channels on your
cabin's TV.  If really pressed, you could always borrow a book
from the ship's library.
     On the wartime voyage, we were left to our own devices.  For
those enlisted men who were not seasick, this meant poker or
craps.  At one point, I witnessed a thousand dollar pot hinging
on the throw of some dice.
     Although bunks had been erected almost everywhere, one
modest lounge one was left for the officers.  Those few who
showed up were carrying their metal helmets.  These were not for
protection but for use in event of mal de mer.
     The atmosphere was lightened by the presence of several
companies of nurses on board.  The sexes were allowed to mix in
the officers' lounge, and some romances developed.  These had to
wait however until we reached England for consumation.  There was
no privacy on the ship, and stern faced US Marines guarded the
nurses' cabins.
     When I started this narrative, my thought was to discuss
similarities as well as dissimilarities.  Even though I have
searched my memory, the contrasts dominate my recollections.
The only thing the two voyages really had in common was that they
both got me safely to England.
     Despite its discomforts, the wartime crossing also left me
with an imperishable love of ocean travel.  Having crossed the
Atlantic a number of times on various liners, my hope now is that
my recent crossing on the QE 2 was not my last.  END TEXT

     This is the original text of an article printed in the
International Herald Tribune on November 9, 1990

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Jan 1994 17:21:01 +0100
From:    John Ausland <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: ARC: SPINOFFS FROM LETTERS HOME

  Oslo, January 2.  In producing my book LETTERS HOME: A WAR MEMOIR, there were
a number of spinoffs.  These took the form of articles for various publications
about such things as visits to battlefields and excerpts for The Ivy Leaves, the
quarterly publication of the 4th Infantry Division Association.  I have already
shared a few of these with the users of this list.
  My thought now is to send them as messages from time to time, as the fiftieth
anniversary of the events described in my book pass us by.
  I am uploading the first of these as a separate message.  It is the original
text of an article which appeared in the International Herald Tribune, in which
I contrast a recent voyage across the Atlantic on the Queen Elizabeth II with
one on the Queen Elizabeth.  This began on January 2, 1944, when some thousands
of us sailed from the port of New York for Scotland.
  I leave it to Larry to decide whether this is worth sending to BYRD, so that
others may see it.
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Jan 1994 17:54:06 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET>
Subject: Re: ARC: SPINOFFS FROM LETTERS HOME

To John Ausland:

I was particularly intrigued to read about your crossing on the QE in 1944.

This past summer, I talked with a number of Czechs who flew with the RCAF
and RAF during World War II.  One of them told me of escorting the QE.
Do you have any idea how many trips the QE made during WWII?  And what
the ports might have been?

Perhaps I can find out exact dates from my Czech friend.


  =========================================================================
  | DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
  |                                  | Computers in Business & Education. |
  | Recently returned from my        | Education:  Curriculum development.|
  |   second extended stay           |    International Education, TEFL.  |
  |   in Prague.                     | Central Europe:  Post revolution   |
  | Working on second book about     |    economic, social, political     |
  |   Prague and new Czech Republic. |    changes and opportunities.      |
  | U.S.A. E-Mail:  BAUER@RCKHRST1   | Free lance writing and editing.    |
  |                                  | Stamp collecting.                  |
  =========================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Jan 1994 18:35:38 CST
From:    Steve Alvin <salvin@HEARTLAND.BRADLEY.EDU>
Subject: Re: ARC: CROSSING THE ATLANTIC IN THE QUEENS ELIZABETH

John,

As usual, I enjoyed your post.  Many years ago, when I was in
high school, I toured the Queen Mary at Long Beach.  One part
of the tour is a cabin that was converted into the accomidations
used when the QM was a troop ship.  It gave new meaning to
the phrased "packed in like sardines."

Are you sure Churchill used the Queens for trips to the U. S.?
I know he used the Prince of Wales for the meeting at sea with
Roosevelt in Aug. `41 (Roosevelt sailed on the CA Augusta).  This
meeting resulted in the Atlantic Charter.

--
Steve Alvin
salvin@heartland.bradley.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Jan 1994 19:59:45 CST
From:    Steve Alvin <salvin@HEARTLAND.BRADLEY.EDU>
Subject: Re: ARC: CROSSING THE ATLANTIC IN THE QUEENS ELIZABETH

To answer my own question about Churchill and the Queen Mary:


In August, 1943, Churchill took the QM from the UK to the Quebec
Conference.  The liner was escorted by the carrier Illustrious,
three crusisers, and destroyers.  Churchill returned to the UK
on the battlecruiser Renown.  This makes sense because as a
troop transport, the QM made the trip from the UK empty, so
there would be plenty of room for the Prime Minister and his
staff!
##

--
Steve Alvin
salvin@heartland.bradley.edu

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 1 Jan 1994 to 2 Jan 1994
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 19 messages totalling 874 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Media: Movie: Yanks
  2. 10 Feb 1940,"They broke in like mad dogs"
  3. ARC: SPINOFFS FROM LETTERS HOME (3)
  4. <No subject given>
  5. USAAF 3 JAN 44
  6. your mail (4)
  7. ADMIN: The Holocaust... (5)
  8. The Holocaust...
  9. Closure of famous wartime pub.
 10. Volunteers Requested

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Jan 1994 07:52:21 CST
From:    "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer,
         Tim A." <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Media: Movie: Yanks

I was watching the movie Yanks yesterday on WGN out of Chicago and I
noticed in several campscene shots there were what appeared to be
nuclear power plant cooling towers in the background.  Has anyone else
noticed this ?  Is there a logical explanation for that (like it was a
normal cooling tower design adopted for nuclear use), or is it just a
big screw-up?Tanks in advance (pun intended).

Tim

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Jan 1994 10:20:53 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: 10 Feb 1940,"They broke in like mad dogs"

In your message of  1 Jan 1994 at 2124 CST, you write:
> George,
>
> I really enjoyed your post.  CAn you add some background info
> about his experiences?
>
> --
> Steve Alvin
> salvin@heartland.bradley.edu

Yea, what happened next???  You can't stop there!  Thanks for posting
that account.  How did he survive the war and how did you end up in
Australia?  Don't leave us hanging :-)

Reagards Bill

whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Jan 1994 12:03:26 -0500
From:    Daniel Ford <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>
Subject: Re: ARC: SPINOFFS FROM LETTERS HOME

As a matter of interest, when Winston Churchill and his group
went to the Quebec conference in 1943, there were 200 people
aboard the QUEEN MARY.

In wartime, it seems, it is better to be a head of state or a
close adviser, than to be in the infantry.

Regards - Dan Ford

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Jan 1994 13:03:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: <No subject given>

I am sure that everyone on this list has heard of the Holocaust.  My
question is, "How many non-Jewish people died in the camps during World
War II?"  Does anyone have any numbers and perhaps a breakdown by sex,
crime (political, criminal, mental), age, religion, etc.

Any help would be appreciated.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Jan 1994 10:32:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: USAAF 3 JAN 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
MONDAY, 3 JANUARY 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-24, Douglas Dauntless
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  Spitfire, Vickers Supermarine
  Zeke, Mitsubishi A6M


CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 22 A-36's and P-51's hit
warehouses and dump area at Sahmaw; 19 B-25's, along with 16 P-38's, bomb a
pumping station at Yenangyaung, setting oil tanks afire; 10 B-24's follow
with a strike on the same target, causing explosions and leaving the target
in flames.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 28 B-24's attack the railroad yards
at Lampang; 5 fighter-bombers attack the town of Pingkai.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Special Night Operation: 1 B-17 is
dispatched on an Oboe test against Germany but turns back due to an oxygen
failure in the tail gun position.
  HQ 452d Bombardment Group (Heavy) and it's 728th, 729th, 730th and 731st
Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy) arrives at Deopham Green, England from the US
with B-17's; first mission is 5 Feb.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Lieutenant General Nathan F
Twining becomes Commanding General, Fifteenth Air Force.
  In Italy, B-17's escorted by P-38's, bomb the Villarperosa ball bearing
works and Lingotto marshalling yard and Fiat motor works in the Turin area.
P-47's fly top cover for the B-17's as far as the Italian coast, then turn
and carry out an uneventful sweep over the Rome area.
  Arrivals in Italy from US:
  719th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 449th Bombardment Group (Heavy), to
Grottaglie with B-24's; first mission is 8 Jan.
  721st and 723d Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), 450th Bombardment Group
(Heavy), to Manduria with B-24's; first mission is 8 Jan.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): Brigadier General Edward M Morris
assumes command of the XII Fighter Command.
  In Yugoslavia, B-25's bomb a troop concentration area at Prijedor, and hit
Split and Sibenik. In Italy, P-40's and A-36's bomb gun positions near
Cassino, the Anagni railroad station, a village near Vicenza, the railway and
trains between Ceccano and Segni, and the harbor at Civitavecchia; P-40's,
with South African Air Force (SAAF) and Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF)
Spitfires, hit 100+ vehicles in the Avezzano-Sulmona area; other P-40's, with
AAF, Royal Air Force (RAF), SAAF, and Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF)
fighters, hit targets in the Filetto-Tollo areas in support of ground troops.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): 24 A-24's from Makin Island,
Gilbert Islands dive-bomb AA positions and radar and radio facilities on
Mille Atoll, Marshall Islands. 20 supporting P-39's strafe runways and oil
storage.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): 30+ Allied fighters again
sweep the Rabaul area, New Britain Island, claiming 6 Zekes shot down. 6
B-24's bomb Kavieng, New Ireland Island, and several others abort due to bad
weather. 6 B-25's bomb Moisuru a bivouac area near Kahili, on Bougainville
Island and 15 more hit supply areas near the Buka Passage.
  23d Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 5th Bombardment Group (Heavy), begins
movement from Espiritu Santo, New Hebrides Islands to Munda, New Georgia
Island with B-24's.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): 50+ B-24's and B-25's bomb
the Alexishafen area in New Guinea. 20+ A-20's hit positions at Borgen Bay,
New Britain Island.
  388th Bombardment Squadron (Light), 312th Bombardment Group (Light),
transfers from Port Moresby to Gusap, New Guinea with P-40's; first mission
is 13 Jan; they will transition to A-20's in Feb.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Jan 1994 14:50:43 EST
From:    "William B. Thacker" <wbt@CBEMF.ATT.COM>
Subject: Re: your mail

> I am sure that everyone on this list has heard of the Holocaust.  My
> question is, "How many non-Jewish people died in the camps during World
> War II?"  Does anyone have any numbers and perhaps a breakdown by sex,
> crime (political, criminal, mental), age, religion, etc.

In _The Pink Triangle_, Robert Plant estimates that between 5000 and 15000
male homosexuals died in the camps.  Homosexuality was considered a
criminal behavior, so they would fall in the "criminal" category you
suggest above.  A small number of lesbians were apparently sent to the
camps for morality crimes, apparently on the order of a dozen or less.

When you say "died in the camps", do you include POW camps?  If so, the
next largest number will probably be Russion prisoners of war; millions of
them died in German captivity, I'm not sure if a close tally has ever been
made.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
(614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              wbt@cbemf.att.com
                      Humpty Dumpty was pushed!

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Jan 1994 15:07:14 EST
From:    Ron Babuka <WRB@CORNELLC.BITNET>
Subject: Re: your mail

While not fimiliar enough with the numbers to list them with any degree
of confidence - the Germans were also responsible for the death of ethnic
Gypsies that ran into the millions.


Ron Babuka

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Jan 1994 16:45:28 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: ADMIN: The Holocaust...

...was one of the major reasons people thought this list would never survive.
Thus my prohibition regarding the subject. After some watching and an
evaluation of the caliber of people who subscribe to this list I think I
can make a conditional suspension of that portion of the charter. By
"conditional" I mean that as long as the tenor of the conversation remains
at the current level of the list I will allow discussion of the topic. I
reserve the right to "come down like a ton of bricks" if the postings
start to get out of control.

I would also suggest that those deeply interested in the topic look into
the list dedicated to the Holocaust. I'll append the full list of H-Net
mailings list, which includes the address for the aforementioned list.

I have been, on the whole, very impressed with the membership of this list
and I know that I will continue to be impressed.

servabo fidem,
Larry J


Date:     Sat, 13 Nov 1993 00:03:55 -0600
Sender: H-Net Teaching History discussion list
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Moderator's note (CF): What follows is H-Net's guide to history lists
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===========================================================================
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    "H-Net Guide to History Lists on Bitnet/Internet"
         from H-Net@UICVM.UIC.EDU  November 12, 1993

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    -------------------------------------------------------------

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          enquiries to  Editor@epas.utoronto.ca
       g) FranceHs@UWAVM    French history [inactive]
       h) GrmnHist@uscvm    German history
       i) H-Albion@uicvm    ** British History
       j) Durkheim@cso.uiuc.edu   European social thought
          Send request to: majordomo@listserv.cso.uiuc.edu
       k) HABSBURG@purccvm  Austrian History since 1500
       l) HISLAW-L@ulkyvm   History of Law (Feudal, Common, Canon)
       m) history-vasco [see UK]  15-16c Portugal
       n) Low Countries  [medieval & early modern; interdisciplinary]
          apply to walter.p.simons@dartmouth.edu
       o) RENAIS-L@ULKYVM   Renaissance

    4. Economic History
       a) EconHist          Economic; Cliometric History Assoc.
          write Cliomets@miamiu.acs.muohio.edu
       b) Essex-history [see UK]  Historical data archives at ESRC
       c) H-Labor@uicvm     ** labor History
       d) history-econ  [see UK]  Economic history; excellent newsletter

    5. Military History, Wars
       a) H-CivWar@uicvm    ** US Civil War
       b) MilHst-L@ukanvm   Military History [active; semi-popular]
       c) VWar-L@UBVM       Vietnam War [history, pop culture very active]
       d) WWII-L@UBVM       World War II  [active]

    6. General; National & Professional Groups
       a) AHC-L@DGOGWDG1    (European) Association for History & Computing
       b) CLIONET           Australian quarterly e-journal
          reach it through HNSOURCE (see section B1 below) under
               RESOURCES/ Europe and Asia
       c) history-ihr [see UK]    Intitute of Historical Reseach
       d) history@psuvm     Generic history [active; semi-pop]
       e) L-CHA@uqam        Canadian Historical Association
       f) OMHR              Online Modern History Review
          send e-note to editor at ua832@freenet.victoria.bc.ca

    7. Religion
       a) AmerCath@UKCC     History of American Catholicism
       b) HISTEC-L@ukanvm   History of Evangelical Christianity
       c) HOLOCAUS@uicvm    ** Holocaust studies, anti-Semitism
       d) Shaker@ukcc       Shakers

    8. Science, Technology, Computing
       a) ASEH-L@TTUVM1     Am. Soc. of Environmental Historians
       b) Caduceus          Medical history; email to ibowman@utmbeach
       c) EPP-L@BUACCA      Albert Einstein Papers and Discussion
       d) HOPOS-L@UKCC      History of Philosophy of Science [active]
       e) HOST              History of Science & Tech (ejournal)
          contact editor at jsmith@epas.utoronto.ca
       f) HTech-L@SIVM      History of Technology [active]
       g) MedSci-L@brownvm  Medieval and Renaissance science
       h) SHOTHC-L@SIVM     History of Computing

    9. Teaching, Public History & Ancillary Fields
       a) Archives@arizvm1.ccit.arizona.edu    Archives [very active]
       b) CTICH             Computers in teaching history
          ewrite: CTICH@glasgow.ac.uk
       c) H-Grad@uicvm      ** graduate students only
       d) H-Teach@uicvm     ** teaching History
       e) history-methods [see UK]
       f) history-teaching [see UK]
       g) HUMANIST@brownvm  Humanists [active, famous]
       h) MUSEUM-L@unmvma   Museums
       i) Humgrad [see UK]  Graduate students in Humanities
       j) PUBLHIST          Public history list
          To subscribe, send SUB to MAILSERV@HUSC3.HARVARD.EDU
       k) Roots-L@NDSUVM1   Genealogy [very active]
       l) SEdit-L@UMDD      Editors of scholarly editions [active]
       m) SHARP-L@IUBVM     History of Authorship, Reading

   10. US History
       a) American-studies [see UK]
       b) AmWest-H@uscvm    American West
       c) EarAm-L@KENTVM    Society of Early Americanists
       d) H-AmStdy@uicvm    ** American Studies
       e) H-CivWar@uicvm    ** US Civil War
       f) H-South@uicvm     ** US South
       g) H-Pol@uicvm       ** US Political History
       h) IEAHCnet@uicvm    ** Early American History & Culture
       i) PrezHist@kasey.umkc.edu [Internet]  US Presidential History,
          PrezHist%kasey.umkc.edu@umkcvax1 [Bitnet]          1789-1992

   11. Other Topical List
       a) AERA-F@asuacad    Education History [nb capitalization]
       b) H-Diplo@uicvm     ** diplomatic; foreign affairs
       c) H-Film@uicvm      ** scholarly studies & uses of media
       d) H-Law@uicvm       ** legal & constitutional
       e) H-Rhetor@uicvm    ** history of rhetoric
       f) H-Rural@uicvm     ** rural, agricultural history
       g) H-Urban@uicvm     ** Urban History
       h) H-Women@uicvm     ** Women's History
       i) KANSAS-L@UKANAIX.CC.UKANS.EDU  Kansas History and Life
       j) Poli-Sci@RUTVM1   Political Science Digest
       k) PSRT-L@MIZZOU1    Pol Science/ constl law book reviews
       l) Victoria@IUBVM    Victorian studies
       m) WHIRL@PSUVM       Women's History in Rhetoric & Language
       n) World-L@UBVM      World History

 B. Gopher Services to History Textbases
    1. HNSOURCE          history gopher service at U Kansas (="MALIN")
       telnet   hnsource.cc.ukans.edu
    2. the menu option RESOURCES: DATA BASES includes direct access to
       databases, including CARL (periodical literature) and LOCIS
       (Library of Congress catalog)
    3. Byrd Historical Data Archives (e-texts)
       use gopher through HNSOURCE under RESOURCES/America
    4. GHETA             History ftp service at U of Groningen
       reach it from HNSOURCE under RESOURCES/ Europe and Asia
    5. Mississippi State History Data Archive
       via HNSOURCE under RESOURCES/America

 C. How to subscribe to a LIST via Bitnet (use H-TEACH as example).
    Do NOT send a message directly to the list. Instead send it to
    the "listserv" that handles the list. (Note spelling of
    LISTSERV). The Listserv program on the mainframe computer at the
    other end will figure out your e-address from the message header
    it gets from your computer.
    1.  Thus to subscribe to H-TEACH (that is, H-TEACH@uicvm)
       send a message to its listserv, which will be
            LISTSERV@uicvm
       for H-TEACH@uicvm.
       --no "subject" line
       --the text of your message should be:
       SUBSCRIBE H-TEACH Your Name School
       for example:
       SUBSCRIBE H-TEACH Leslie Jones, U of Southern Nebraska
    2. To unsubscribe:
       send this message to Listserv@node
       UNSUBSCRIBE listname Your Name
    3. To put messages on hold for a while, send this message to
       listserv@node:
       SET listname NOMAIL
       that is, SET H-TEACH NOMAIL
       a) To resume messages:     SET listname MAIL

 D. Internet is, in general, a better system than Bitnet. [They are
    actually two different systems, but they interconnect.  Half the
    subscription problems occur because of confusion regarding the
    two.]  Bitnet addresses are short and look like xxxx@yyyy.
    Internet addresses are longer and look like xxxx@yyy.ZZZ.edu
    If your mainframe uses Internet only, use this tip: if the
    Bitnet address is xxxx@zzzz, send the message to
    xxxx@zzzz.Bitnet  (Internet then uses its gateway to Bitnet.)

 E. UK lists at mailbase@mailbase.ac.uk
       for all British lists, send e-note (no subject) to
       mailbase@mailbase.ac.uk
       containing the single line:
       JOIN list Firstname Surname
       (i.e. JOIN History-econ Jane Doe
       to exit:       LEAVE History-methods
       a) if you are inside Britain, email to
          JANET%"MAILBASE@UK.AC.MAILBASE"
          -----------------------------------

 F. How to post a message for everyone on list
    (be sure to sign it, & give your own e-address; and keep a
    copy--most lists do not automatically send you a copy of your
    own message.)
    send it to listname@node     that is, H-TEACH@uicvm [Bitnet]
         or to H-TEACH@uicvm.uic.edu [Internet]
    --depending on your mainframe, you may have to use one of
    several variants: check with your computer center on how to send
    an email message to a bitnet address
              one variant: (IBM CMS mainframes)
                           NOTE H-TEACH@uicvm
          three more variants (VAX VMS systems)
    in%"H-TEACH@uicvm"
    jnet%"H-TEACH@uicvm"
    po%"H-TEACH@uicvm.BITNET"

 -----------------------------

End of H-TEACH Digest - 11 Nov 1993 to 12 Nov 1993
**************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Jan 1994 15:49:10 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: your mail

In Bill Thacker's message of  3 Jan 1994 at 1510 CST, he writes:

> In _The Pink Triangle_, Robert Plant estimates that between 5000 and 15000
> male homosexuals died in the camps.  Homosexuality was considered a
> criminal behavior, so they would fall in the "criminal" category you
> suggest above.
> Bill Thacker

Hi Folks,

Bill is quite right about homosexuals being a target despite the
number that helped the Nazis come to power in the early days (Ernst
Ro"hm et al) but during the time that prisoners were required to wear
distinctive insignias and numbers on their stripped uniforms there
was a color system so that jailers could tell at a glance who they
were dealing with.  Pink, as Bill mentioned was for homosexuals but
convicted criminals had a color of their own - green?  At Dachau and
Mauthausen there are breakdowns of the inmates they held by type and
nationality.  The color system was also explained but my feeble brain
seems to have lost its pointers to that data.  I know Red was for
communists but there was also a color for political prisoners and
another color for dissident clergy in addition to the Star of David
for Jewish inmates.  BTW, if a prisoner was a communist Jew he would
wear a red triangle over the yellow one forming his Star of David.
The 6 pointed star was formed with two triangles one over the other
but inversely juxtaposed.

Later in the war when the camps saw a lot more traffic the color and
number system was not adhered to as much.  It was hard enough getting
uniforms for all the prisoners to worry about making sure the number
on the coat and pants matched the number on the wrist and that the
color code was right.

Interestingly, the son of a high ranking Danish official was caught
in Hamburg by police participating in homosexual behavior and turned
over the the GESTAPO.  The Nazis used him as a hostage by telling
the father that if he did not ensure that the Danish army stood down
during the German occupation that the boy would be sent to a
concentration camp.  As I recall I read this in an issue of _The
Military Advisor_ but I can't recall which issue or who the Dane was
that had enough power to send the entire Danish army, navy and
boarder guard police home for the weekend while the Germans moved in.
As I recall, the Germans did release the son as they agreed.

Funny how the fate of a nation can come to hang on the fate of a
single person....

Regards, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Jan 1994 15:55:33 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: The Holocaust...

I was intrigued with the comment by someone that they were impressed with
the memberhsip of this list.  And that they knew they would continue to
be impressed...

CAn someone explain that comment for me?

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Jan 1994 17:23:09 EST5EDT
From:    Jon Kay <JONKAY@MINMET.LAN.MCGILL.CA>
Subject: Re: The Holocaust...

=|>...was one of the major reasons people thought this list would never survive.
=|>Thus my prohibition regarding the subject. After some watching and an
=|>evaluation of the caliber of people who subscribe to this list I think I
=|>can make a conditional suspension of that portion of the charter. By
=|>"conditional" I mean that as long as the tenor of the conversation remains
=|>at the current level of the list I will allow discussion of the topic. I
=|>reserve the right to "come down like a ton of bricks" if the postings
=|>start to get out of control.

Yeah, I agree. The holocaust is such an incredibly sensitive subject
that it only takes one insensitive (and ignorant) moron to ruin
everything for everybody. I'd like to echo the administrator's
thoughts : As a student of world war II (and as a jew, I might add
paranthetically) I have been greatly impressed with the intellelctual
content of this list and the sensitivity shown by the contributors.

I am TOTALLY in favor of administrator censure of inappropriate
postings. I was on a pretty good list called BELIEF-L but it was
ruined because a handful of people were using it as a pulpit for
homophobic and other hateful things. Given the calibre of people on
this list, I have every confidence that this will not happen.

Looking forward to another stimulating year or discourse,

--- Leaves of 3, let it be... Leaves of 4, eat some more !!! ---

above message from : JONKAY@MINMET.LAN.MCGILL.CA

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Jan 1994 19:29:20 GMT
From:    Ray 'HURRICANE' Whiteley <whitelrj@NCP.GPT.CO.UK>
Subject: Closure of famous wartime pub.

Will you kindly pass this information on to other lists that may be interested.
The Marquis of Granby in Binbrook, Lincolnshire closed on the 18th December 1993.
This most famous pub is well known throughout the world and will surely be missed
by many squadrons and associations. Air and ground crews of all nations stationed
anywhere near RAF Binbrook will know it well.
The company who own it say it is no longer viable. ;-(
Once again another piece of our aeronautical history is liable to be lost!
Perhaps a few letters from around the world will make them change their minds.

    Godfrey Charterhouse.
    Property Director,
    Century Inns Ltd.
    Belasis Business Centre,
    Belasis Hall Technology Park,
    Coxwold Way,
    Billingham,
    Cleveland.   UK.  (0642) 343426

Many thanks to you all.
                           Ray Whiteley
                                        Ex:- C/Obs Royal Observer Corps.
                                        Email:- whitelrj@ncp.gpt.co.uk

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Jan 1994 18:53:16 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: The Holocaust...

> I was intrigued with the comment by someone that they were impressed with
> the memberhsip of this list.  And that they knew they would continue to
> be impressed...
>
> CAn someone explain that comment for me?
>
That was me. I am impressed by the membership for several reasons. First is
that I seldom have to "moderate" this list (some folks have said there was
no moderator at all :-). You people are self-regulating insofar as there
are very few flame-war in our history and those were short lived. You've
been thoughtful, considerate and courteous to each other. Compared to some
lists WWII-L is an oasis of sanity.

I'm also impressed with the diversity of this list. Over 20 countries have
been represented on the list. The "pool" of talent is also impressive. Very
few questions have gone unanswered and even with 30 years of reading on the
subject I am still being surprised with "new" information on a frequent
basis.

When I started this list I was assured that the revisonists would "storm"
the list and I'd have nothing useful come through their noise. I've had
few such problems and haven't had to "nuke" any site. I think that if the
neo's tried to give me a problem the membership would stand by me since
you people have a good thing going here and know it.

As I've said before, I'm the conductor on this train, just punching tickets,
not the conductor of an orchestra, calling every note. And I like it that
way.

Enough babble,
Larry J

JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Jan 1994 08:58:11 +0100
From:    John Ausland <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: Re: ARC: SPINOFFS FROM LETTERS HOME

  Oslo, January 3.  FOR GEORGE BAUER
  The information I had in my IHT article about the QE during WWII was taken
from a book I found in the library of the QEII.  Sorry, I no longer have the
notes I took.  As I recall, the QE originally was used to carry Australian
troops, about 5,000 at a time.  When the US took it over, it tore out all
unnecessary facilities, except for the dining room and lounge for officers.  As
a result, it was able to triple the number carried, by having the enlisted men
sleep in shifts.
  During the voyage I was on, it sailed from New York to a bay in Scotland.  We
were carried ashore on small boats.
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Jan 1994 18:44:43 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: The Holocaust...

ONe more question...

Who are the "you people" you refer to?  Twice?  Forgive me if I am a
bit too sensitive...

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Jan 1994 18:49:11 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET>
Subject: Re: ARC: SPINOFFS FROM LETTERS HOME

John Ausland:

I'm sorry.   I think I made a mistake.  I looked at my notes again, and
it appears my Czech friend flew escort for the QM to England.  I'll
ask him again for more details when I see him again.

Thanks for your information.


  =========================================================================
  | DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
  |                                  | Computers in Business & Education. |
  | Recently returned from my        | Education:  Curriculum development.|
  |   second extended stay           |    International Education, TEFL.  |
  |   in Prague.                     | Central Europe:  Post revolution   |
  | Working on second book about     |    economic, social, political     |
  |   Prague and new Czech Republic. |    changes and opportunities.      |
  | U.S.A. E-Mail:  BAUER@RCKHRST1   | Free lance writing and editing.    |
  |                                  | Stamp collecting.                  |
  =========================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Jan 1994 19:07:18 -0600
From:    Judi Harris <jbharris@TENET.EDU>
Subject: Volunteers Requested

WOULD YOU BE WILLING TO SHARE WHAT YOU KNOW WITH
PRE-COLLEGE STUDENTS AND TEACHERS BY ELECTRONIC MAIL?

Recent estimates indicate that there are now more than
300,000 classroom teachers from primary, middle, and
secondary schools who hold accounts on the Internet.
This makes a very special kind of learning available to
them: one which directly involves subject matter experts
communicating with students and teachers about their
specialties, via electronic mail.

With support from the Texas Center for Educational
Technology, we (at the University of Texas at Austin)
have piloted and are now expanding an Internet-based
service (the "Electronic Emissary") that brings together
pre-college students, their teachers, and subject matter
experts (SMEs) electronically, helping them to create
telecomputing exchanges centered around the students'
learning in the SMEs' disciplines.  For example,

*  A class studying South America could learn about
recent global environmental research results from a
scientist who studies rainforest deforestation in
Brazil.

*  A class studying geometry might "talk" electronically
with Euclid, who is actually a mathematics professor.

*  A class studying the future of education might
converse with an emerging technologies specialist from
California's Silicon Valley.

*  A class studying American History might
electronically interview Harry Truman, who is really a
curator with the National Archives.

*  A class exploring the rapidly-changing governmental
structures that are emerging in what was once the Soviet
Union might correspond with a group of graduate
political science students at a university in the CIS.

*  Or, a class reading _Huckleberry Finn_ might
correspond with an African-American studies scholar
about the repercussions resulting from the enacting of
the Emancipation Proclamation.

In successive phases of the project, increasing numbers
of SMEs or SME groups are needed to correspond regularly
(approximately 4 times per week) with primary, middle
school, or secondary students and their teachers (1 SME
or expert group per class, study group, or "special
student").  Each electronic exchange will begin with
approximately 2 weeks of project planning via electronic
mail between the SMEs and the teachers.  Communications
with students will begin on mutually convenient dates,
and will continue for previously-arranged periods of
time, usually between 2 and 10 weeks.

Subject matter expert volunteers are sought in all
disciplines, but there is immediate need for SMEs with
expertise in:

~  gravity and satellite motion
~  heat transfer
~  Hitler's rise to power during World War II
~  the Indian Wars (1870's & 1880's)
~  20th century fragmentation due to weapons of war,
   especially the atom bomb
~  Maya Angelou (and other women in literature)
~  Native American literature, specifically Cherokee
~  George Orwell's _Animal Farm_ & Russian revolutions
~  personal finance
~  geometry

==> If you would like to find out more about
==> participating in this project, please send
==> electronic mail to Judi Harris, jbharris@tenet.edu.
==> Please include your name, institution, and areas of
==> expertise.

==> PLEASE RESPOND ASAP; teacher-SME pairs in the
==> specific areas requested above will be formed on
==> 1/12/93.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Jan 1994 20:15:05 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: The Holocaust...

> ONe more question...
>
> Who are the "you people" you refer to?  Twice?  Forgive me if I am a
> bit too sensitive...
>
I was addressing the list at large. WWII-L seems to attract a more
reasonable membership than some lists (the signal-to-noise ratio is much
higher than some of the lists I lurk on).

The "you people" phraseology comes from wayyyy too many years in the USN.
"We people" would have probably been more exact.

Larry J

JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Jan 1994 22:29:38 CST
From:    phyllis soybel <U09113@UICVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: your mail

On Mon, 3 Jan 1994 15:07:14 EST Ron Babuka said:
>While not fimiliar enough with the numbers to list them with any degree
>of confidence - the Germans were also responsible for the death of ethnic
>Gypsies that ran into the millions.
>
>
>Ron Babuka

Ron, I didn't think that there were millions of gypsies period--I think,
in total, approximately 12-14 million people died in the camps or as part
of extermination squads set up in Poland, Russia, etc by the German
"machine." Approx. 6 million were Jews, 4 million were "ethnic" Poles, the rest
were Russians, gypsies, communists, homosexuals, etc... The problem is that
the approximation comes from the early part of the "final solution, when
mass shooting, gas trucks, etc. were employed on sight by the German SS. While
the Germans were excellent record keepers, even today we are uncertain as to
how the breakdown went.

Phyllis Soybel
University of Illinois, Chicago

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 2 Jan 1994 to 3 Jan 1994
***********************************************

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From: Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 3 Jan 1994 to 4 Jan 1994
To: Recipients of WWII-L digests <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
Status: O

There are 21 messages totalling 617 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. 10 Feb 1940,"They broke in like mad dogs" (3)
  2. your mail (3)
  3. Philippine Islands/Guerrilla Activty (2)
  4. Latvian Legion
  5. ADMIN: The Holocaust...
  6. Naval Historical Center address? (2)
  7. Philippine Islands/Guerrilla Activty -- books
  8. WWII-L "train conductor" appreciated!
  9. <No subject given>
 10. Gen: Upcoming NY Times Article
 11. TRIV: What are Gypsies? (was: your mail)
 12. The List... (2)
 13. WWII, CHURCHILL AND THE HOLOCAUST
 14. INF: Seeking Abraham Lincoln vets.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Jan 1994 16:20:49 +1000
From:    George PISZCZUK <PHGPI@CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: 10 Feb 1940,"They broke in like mad dogs"

In your message of  1 Jan 1994 at 2124 CST, you write:
> George,
>
> I really enjoyed your post.  CAn you add some background info
> about his experiences?
>
> --
> Steve Alvin
> salvin@heartland.bradley.edu

:Yea, what happened next???  You can't stop there!  Thanks for posting
:that account.  How did he survive the war and how did you end up in
:Australia?  Don't leave us hanging :-)

:Reagards Bill
:whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

Stefan is the son of Makary Piszczuk.  Makary was a a veteran of the Bolshevick
War, and he was given a large parcel of land, on what is now the
Polish-Belorussian border.

Following his stay in Siberia Stefan was drafted into the
Tadeusz Kosciuszko army of Wanda Wasilewska, with Berling the commander.
His service number was 778. He was posted missing, presumed killed 12/10/43
at Lenino.

He survived a serious wound was actually held by the Germans. Following his
release by advancing Russians he continued onto Berlin. There he worked for the
British until he received his discharge 16 Sep 49 and he emigrated to Australia.

At no time did he consider returning home, he knew what Stalin had in store for
him. My brother and I took him back in 1992, it was only then he really knew he
had made the right descision.

Other letters tell of his training, his time as a POW and the remainder of his
war. I will post these as they are translated if there is a continuing interest.

George

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Jan 1994 23:53:02 CST
From:    Steve Alvin <salvin@HEARTLAND.BRADLEY.EDU>
Subject: Re: your mail

At the risk of this being a "me too" post, I also use the figure
of 12-14 million deaths when I teach the Holocaust as part of my
20th c
Century class.  I break it down to approx 6 million jews, 4 million
poles, 1.5-2 million Russian prisioners, and the remainder being
the mentally ill, political prisioners, various ethnic minorities,
like the gypsis (sp), homosexuals, and various religious groups,
like the Jehova Witnesses.

--
Steve Alvin
salvin@heartland.bradley.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Jan 1994 23:55:10 CST
From:    Steve Alvin <salvin@HEARTLAND.BRADLEY.EDU>
Subject: Re: 10 Feb 1940,"They broke in like mad dogs"

Yes George, I think you will find a lot of continuing interest!

--
Steve Alvin
salvin@heartland.bradley.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Jan 1994 09:05:46 EST
From:    Ron Babuka <WRB@CORNELLC.BITNET>
Subject: Re: your mail

>> Ron, I didn't think that there were millions of gypsies period--I think,
>> in total, approximately 12-14 million people died in the camps or as part
>> of extermination squads set up in Poland, Russia, etc by the German
>> "machine." Approx. 6 million were Jews, 4 million were "ethnic" Poles, the

Thank you - I stand corrected.  I think my main error in my posting was
in think of an ethnic group that was targeted during the war and then
only point the finger at the German war machine.  Once again I am not
certain of the numbers but if we included ethnic Gypsies that were
liquidated by the Germans, the Romanians, the Bulgarians, and the Russians
in both planned extermination and spontaneous retaliations then the number
increases.  If someone had any numbers I would be intrested in seeing them.

I grew up in a very ethnic town with a very large percentage of the
population emigrating from eastern europe both before and after the war
A large percentage of these immigrants were stronly anti-Gypsie so the
natures of discussions like this are very emotional AND often incorrect.

Ron Babuka

P.S. a note to the administrator - I hope not to stir up any "problems"
with this subject and am hoping to just clear up any misconceptions
that I have.  ;)

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Jan 1994 09:01:37 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Philippine Islands/Guerrilla Activty

Date sent:      Sun, 19 Dec 1993 11:39:54 -0500
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
From:           Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject:        Re: Philippine Islands/Guerrilla Activty
Originally to:  WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>


Chris,

I have done some checking on the sources I have, and I have some I
can recommend.


    1. Escape From Corregidor by Edgar D. Whitcomb. A personal
account and goes into his own experiences with fighting with
guerrillas before being captured.

    2. 70,000 to One: The Story of Lt. Gordon Manuel by Quentin
Reynolds.

    3. Behind Enemy Lines by James Dean Sanderson. Chapter 8 called
"Wild Man in the Philippines" deals with the the exploits of Walter
M. Cushing.

    Hope this helps somewhat.

    Terry



Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Jan 1994 09:01:30 -0600
From:    Astra M Apsitis-1 <apsit001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Latvian Legion

I was suprised and pleased to read that someone is taking an interest in
WWII in the Baltic--having written my MA thesis on Latvia during WWII, I
would like to comment the following:

On Thu, 30 Dec 1993, Jon Stevens wrote:

> I have recently come across an interesting book called the _Latvian Legio=
n_
> by Arthur Sigailis.  It is a very detailed account of all aspects of the
> Latvians who fought against the Russians in WWII including Latvian
> fighter pilots. =20

What you read is an interesting account of Latvians fighting the Russians,
but most certainly not a complete one.  WWII in Latvia is not an easy
study (as I found out the hard way)--LAtvians in peacetime and at war
never seem to agree on policies.  Differing opinions on how to ensure the
Russians would not return ranged from complete cooperation with the
Germans (i.e. the LAtvian Legion) to resistance against both the Germans
and the Russians.  In fact, at the end of the war (when Kurland was the
last stronghold), a small band of soldiers, many of whom were desrters of
the LEgion, fought against both oppressors.  Under the direction of
Kristaps Upelnieks and taking the name of Captain Kurelis, calling
themselves "Kureliesi" (Kurelians).  I am not aware of any sources for
further information (in Engllish), but for more information on the
LAtvian Legion, pick up any volume of history dealing with the German
Waffen SS and reference the Baltic legions by country.

 As with memoirs of (especially) war "heroes", the information should be
taken with a grain of salt.    However eagerly the first recruits may have
joined the ranks of the German forces,
later in the war the  methods of recruitment
more resembled conscription.  I know of no other memoirs such as the
Silgailis book that have been translated (as that one was in 1986), but I
wish you luck with secondary sources.  If you have any specific questions,
please post and I'll do my best to answer...

This is my first post and my terminal is going nuts--it has taken me 4
tries to get this far and my copy has dingbats all over it--I hope that
they do not transmit to your end...

Thanks for the chance to add to the group...

Astra Apsitis
Immigration History Research Center
University   of Minnesota

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Jan 1994 10:00:59 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: The Holocaust...

In Larry's message of  3 Jan 1994 at 1805 CST, he sez:

> When I started this list I was assured that the revisonists would "storm"
> the list and I'd have nothing useful come through their noise. I've had
> few such problems and haven't had to "nuke" any site. I think that if the
> neo's tried to give me a problem the membership would stand by me since
> you people have a good thing going here and know it.

If anybody is curious about the effect revisionists have on a list
check out alt.revisionism.  It was the most protracted flame war I
have ever witnessed.  I monitored that list for 3 months to get a
feel as to where the neos were coming from and if they had any
competent leadership (sort of a "know your enema" uh, er, "enemy"
[sorry ;-)] exercise).  There are some Jewish and non-Jewish scholars
there verbally dueling with the neos and quite frankly exposing the
neo-nazis for the jackasses they are.

The revisionists are there to generate heat not light.  The danger
lies not in that those who know the facts will change their minds but
that those who do not know may fall for their half-truths and
deceptions.  The revs go to a lot of trouble to make their position
appear scholarly and their agenda legitimate.  They publish the
"Journal of Historical Review" which is formatted like an academic
journal but once you read the articles it proves the old adage that
you can't judge a book by its cover.

Its a very elaborate ploy and they are counting on the belief that
the American People are stupid enough to believe crap if packaged to
look like scholarly literature.

When they infect a list they will say things that are designed to get
people to "blow their cool" and then (from the neos perspective) the
fun begins.  They will claim freedom of speech infringement and
conspiracies to bury the "truth" but its all just a ploy to gain
exposure.  They count on support from people who hear of their
oppressed underdog situation (which they work hard to cultivate) and
try to gain support by getting real scholars mad enough to either say
something which can be twisted or misinterpreted when taken out of
context which then becomes their rally standard.  Like I said, just
heat - no light.  Its a platform of hate supported by ignorance and
lies, nothing more.

WWII-L is truly an oasis of sanity where a subject we all enjoy
discussing is untouched by politics.  I support Larry 1,000% to keep
this list just the way it is.

Its truly a pleasure knowing and corresponding with you folks.

Cheers,  Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Jan 1994 12:43:09 -0230
From:    OLAF <olaf@KEAN.UCS.MUN.CA>
Subject: Naval Historical Center address?

I hope someone out there can help me. I'm trying to contact the
Naval Historical Center in Washington, DC. However, the address
that I have always used in the past with success, has apparently
been changed -- or, at least, my last communication with them was
"Returned to Sender." The address I have been using is:

      Naval Historical Center
      Washington Navy Yard
      Washington, D.C.  20374-0571
      USA

Have they moved or changed their address? Does anyone know their
telephone and/or fax numbers?

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

Olaf Janzen                           Tel: (709) 637-6282
Department of History                 FAX: (709) 639-8125
Sir Wilfred Grenfell College          e-mail: olaf@kean.ucs.mun.ca
Corner Brook, Newfoundland
Canada
A2H 6P9

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Jan 1994 10:31:29 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: 10 Feb 1940,"They broke in like mad dogs"

In your message of  3 Jan 1994 at 2324 CST, you write:

Hi George,

> Other letters tell of his training, his time as a POW and the remainder of his
> war. I will post these as they are translated if there is a continuing interest.
>
> George

Its a story that needs to be told.  Speaking for myself I would love
to hear more as the letters are translated.  I am certain others will
chime in with me on this!

Regards and thanks for sharing your letter(s) with us,

                            Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Jan 1994 10:48:08 -0600
From:    mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: Re: Philippine Islands/Guerrilla Activty -- books

THEY FOUGHT ALONE is another good one, Terry.  Not to abet
  MacArthur bashing, but I remember the author's humorous
  recollection that they only really started receiving weapons
  and other support after they had requested autographed
  portraits of the General.

We should remember that some of his staff were responsible
  for what appeared to be HIS egotism.  Many of them idolized
  him.

My understanding is that "Dugout Doug" was wholly unjustified,
  and M. deliberately and unnecessarily exposed himself on more
  than one occasion to disprove that stereotype.

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Jan 1994 10:52:40 -0600
From:    mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: WWII-L "train conductor" appreciated!

You do good work, Larry.  (After my experience on another net,
  your tolerance and gentle guidance are esteemed.)  Keep it up!

Lou Coatney, Western Illinois University

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Jan 1994 10:36:18 -0600
From:    CAPT Tim Taylor USN <ttaylor@PENS-EMH3.NCTS.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: Re: Naval Historical Center address?

The mailing address for the Naval Historical Center is
     Naval Historical Center
     901 M Street SE
     Washington, DC 20374-5060

The main telephone numbers are 202-433-2210 or 202-433-2553.  The main fax
number is 202-433-3593.  These numbers are in the director's office.

CAPT Tim Taylor, USN           Email:  Tim.Taylor@ncts.navy.mil
Navy Office of Information     Phone: 703-695-2078 DSN 225-2078
Washington, DC  20350-1200       Fax: 703-697-2767 DSN 227-2767
  - Please send NavNews email to navnews@opnav-emh.navy.mil -

On Tue, 4 Jan 1994, OLAF wrote:

> I hope someone out there can help me. I'm trying to contact the
> Naval Historical Center in Washington, DC. However, the address
> that I have always used in the past with success, has apparently
> been changed -- or, at least, my last communication with them was
> "Returned to Sender." The address I have been using is:
>
>       Naval Historical Center
>       Washington Navy Yard
>       Washington, D.C.  20374-0571
>       USA
>
> Have they moved or changed their address? Does anyone know their
> telephone and/or fax numbers?
>
> Thanks in advance for any assistance.
>
> Olaf Janzen                           Tel: (709) 637-6282
> Department of History                 FAX: (709) 639-8125
> Sir Wilfred Grenfell College          e-mail: olaf@kean.ucs.mun.ca
> Corner Brook, Newfoundland
> Canada
> A2H 6P9

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Jan 1994 10:57:22 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET>
Subject: <No subject given>

I have read recent postings about books dealing with Baltic people who fought
in WWII.

Does anybody know any books about Czechs that fought in WWII, particularly
Czechs who flew with the RAF and RCAF?

Thank you.


  =========================================================================
  | DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
  |                                  | Computers in Business & Education. |
  | Recently returned from my        | Education:  Curriculum development.|
  |   second extended stay           |    International Education, TEFL.  |
  |   in Prague.                     | Central Europe:  Post revolution   |
  | Working on second book about     |    economic, social, political     |
  |   Prague and new Czech Republic. |    changes and opportunities.      |
  | U.S.A. E-Mail:  BAUER@RCKHRST1   | Free lance writing and editing.    |
  |                                  | Stamp collecting.                  |
  =========================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Jan 1994 11:03:39 CST
From:    phyllis <U09113@UICVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: your mail

Ron,
I apologize for what may have seemed like a sarcastic tone. It so happened
that in my U.S. History class yesterday, we discussed the Holocaust and
WWII. My students, who are often on the ball, had asked several serious
questions, particulary on the origins of anti-semitism, its particular
strain within central and eastern europe; Roosevelt and "his" decision not
to bomb the concerntration camps, etc.  The subject, even for this list, is
not an easy one. The gypsies, like Jews, stretched across countries, hence in
some ways their numbers are just as approximate as those of the Jews. We will
probably never know the exact death toll for any of the ethnic groups, either
from the camps, resistance, etc...

Phyllis
University of Illinois at chicago

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Jan 1994 18:42:42 +0100
From:    Richard Cummings <CUMMINGSR@ADMINA.RFERL.ORG>
Subject: Gen: Upcoming NY Times Article

For those who like to look ahead...here is a preview of an
article I think will appear in the upcoming NY Times Sunday
Edition:



WORLD WAR II: THE SPLENDID RECORD OF PAPPY BOYINGTON'S BLACK
SHEEP< FOR RELEASE SUNDAY, JAN. 9, 1994<

(Editors: This is one of a series of reports recalling America's
role in the events of World War II 50 years ago this week. The
author, a World War II veteran, is a former editor-in-chief of
Cox Newspapers.)

< By CHARLES E. GLOVER= c.1994 Cox News Service= His men call him
"Pappy." After all, he is 32 years old, fighting in a war with
pilots barely in their twenties.

He commands the Black Sheep Squadron of the United States Marine
Corps - made up of rejects from other flying units. The Black
Sheep have a splendid record when it comes to shooting down
Japanese planes in the Southwest Pacific.


For copyright reasons, I can't post any more.  Guess you will
have to wait for the hard copy.  Regards from Munich.

--==oo00oo==--
cummingsr@rferl.org
RFE/RL Inc
Munich,Germany

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Jan 1994 14:23:41 -0500
From:    "M. Joseph Barone" <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: TRIV: What are Gypsies? (was: your mail)

From: Steve Alvin <salvin@HEARTLAND.BRADLEY.EDU>:
> I break it down to approx 6 million jews, 4 million
> poles, 1.5-2 million Russian prisioners, and the remainder being
> the mentally ill, political prisioners, various ethnic minorities,
> like the gypsis (sp), homosexuals, and various religious groups,
> like the Jehova Witnesses.

        This has tickled the back of my mind for several years, and
Steve's statement has driven to the forefront.  Are gypsies an
ethnic minority?  Based purely on American entertainment (esp. TV),
I had the impression that it was more of a nomadic lifestyle for some
Slavic people.  What is their actual origin?  Thanks.
--
Joe Barone
m1b@rayssd.ssd.ray.com
You're a good man, Mulligan.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Jan 1994 13:31:26 EST
From:    "Michael A. Oaks" <moaks@KSCMAIL.KENNESAW.EDU>
Subject: The List...

I too am pleased with the people and the subjects and the way both are dealt
with on this listserv. I withdrew from the V-WAR listserv due to the FLAME-
WARS  some people commonly had. Disagreements will happen but just because
you disagree doesn't make the others stupid, rude, loud, etc...
Enough, Enough, Enough...
    Changing subjects, has anyone read or heard of any books dealing with
the war/battles between Finland and Germany and or Finland and Russia??
All help appreciated!! In advance I thank you!!

                                               Michael Oaks

                             _______
Michael Oaks                | TRUST,|
Kennesaw State College      |   o  _|_____
P.O. BOX 444                |___|_|  BUT  |
Mareitta, Ga. 30061               |   o  _|_____
moaks@kscmail.Kennesaw.Edu        |___|_|VERIFY.|
(404)499-3049  FAX # (404)423-6541      |   o   |
                                        |___|___|

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Jan 1994 18:04:58 EST
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Esq." <JZML@MARISTB.BITNET>
Subject: WWII, CHURCHILL AND THE HOLOCAUST

Hello all - All of the message traffic about WWII, the Holocaust and
Winston Churchill compels me to recommend the writings of Prof. Martin
Gilbert of Merton College, Oxford. Martin has written extensively on the
Holocaust and WWII and is Churchill's official biographer. His books are
rich in detail, without any axe to grind. Those of you who are also
interested in Churchill might want to join the International Churchill
Society. It republishes some of Churchill's books, has a quarterly
magazine that is quite good and runs some excellent seminars. Anyone who
is interested in the address for membership information can email me at
JZML@MARISTB.MARIST.EDU (Ithink the dues are $25/year or there abouts)

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Jan 1994 18:45:14 -0500
From:    Daniel Ford <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Philippine Islands/Guerrilla Activty

Also look at E. Bartlett Kerr: SURRENDER AND SURVIVAL, NY: Morrow,
1985.

Mostly about PWs in the Pacific, but some of those escaped and
joined resistance groups.

Regards - Dan Ford

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Jan 1994 18:13:11 -0600
From:    Hans Werner <werner@CC.UMANITOBA.CA>
Subject: Re: The List...

On Tue, 4 Jan 1994, Michael Oaks wrote
>...     Changing subjects, has anyone read or heard of any books dealing with
> the war/battles between Finland and Germany and or Finland and Russia??
> All help appreciated!! In advance I thank you!!
>
My name is Hans Werner and I am new to this list so I hope you will
forgive if this message looks odd. I have included a brief personal
introduction below.

My father served in the Russo-Finnish War and some years ago I did some
research on his stories. One book I came across is:
        Allan F. Chew, 'The White Death: The Soviet-Finnish Winter War,'
        (Michigan: Michigan State University Press, 1971).
There are other scattered references that don't spring to mind right now.
__________________________________________________________________________
Hans P. Werner                  Research Interests: Refugees and Displaced
History Masters Student         persons of WWII era. World War II military
University of Manitoba          history. Russian and Soviet History.
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
email address: werner@cc.umanitoba.ca

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Jan 1994 23:06:38 -0500
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: INF: Seeking Abraham Lincoln vets.

Repost from soc.veterans, please reply to Mr. White. LWJ
>
>I'm posting this for a friend, so don't e-mail me.
>
>---------------------------------------
>
>  Researcher / Writer seeks
>  interviews / written communication with
>  veterans, or their families of "The Abraham Lincon
>  Brigade" that fought facism in Spain 1936 - 1939
>
>    Replies to
>      H. White
>      5048 Cobblestone Dr.
>      Columbus, Ohio  43220
>
>Will reply, in writing, to all.
>
>
>----------------------------------------
>
>
> Don't e-mail me.
>
>
>


--
JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 3 Jan 1994 to 4 Jan 1994
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 20 messages totalling 759 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. <No subject given> (2)
  2. Gypsies
  3. Naval Historical Center address?
  4. Philippine Islands/Guerrilla Activty -- books (2)
  5. GERMAN VETS
  6. Ref: Army Times Subscribers (2)
  7. your mail (2)
  8. The List...
  9. Czechs and WWII
 10. apologies
 11. WWII Casualty Figures
 12. Czech airmen in WW II. (2)
 13. National Archives Fax-on-Demand (fwd)
 14. Prchal (2)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Jan 1994 01:39:29 -0400
From:    Myron Havis <MYRONH@DELPHI.COM>
Subject: <No subject given>

>I am sure that everyone on this list has heard of the Holocaust.  My
>question is, "How many non-Jewish people died in the camps during World
>War II?"  Does anyone have any numbers and perhaps a breakdown by sex,
>crime (political, criminal, mental), age, religion, etc.

> Any help would be appreciated.

    I've always seen the figures of 12 million killed in the camps, i.e. 6
million jews and 6 million non-jews (communists, homosexuals, gypsies, etc.)
and a total of 25 million total casualties of the war.

    Anybody have anything more definitive?

MyronH@delphi.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Jan 1994 02:04:17 CST
From:    Steve Alvin <salvin@HEARTLAND.BRADLEY.EDU>
Subject: Gypsies

Some notes on Gypsies culled from my Britannica:

Gypsies, native name Roma, were originally low-caste people of
India and are related by name to the Doms, a tribe of musicians
and rope makers.  Gypsies' language is Prakritic, which is related
to sanskrit.  The term Gypsie derives from "Egyptian", possably an
example of European mis-understanding of their language.

For unknown reasons the Gypsies left N W India before 1000 AD.
They settled first in Persia, but left when the Mongols came.
They first reached Europe around the year 1300 in Greece via
Anatolia.  Spreading through eastern Europe, they reached Hesse
around 1414 and were general in Germany by 1417.  By 1427 they
had reached France, Switzerland, and Northern Italy.  By 1500
they reached England.

REcords for Nazi extermenation are scketchy.  But, thousands of
Gypsies werekilled in Yugoslavia.  At least 20,000 died at
Treblinca, Belzec, Buchenwald, Ravensbruck, and Mauthausen.
Czech and Polish Gypsies were killed at Auschwitz.  2,000
Gypsies were murdered in Belgium.

After the war, Polish Gypsies numbered no more than 4,500, out
of a pre-war total of 18,000.

--
Steve Alvin
salvin@heartland.bradley.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Jan 1994 08:39:41 -0500
From:    Robert Doyle <doyle@CHEM.NRL.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: Re: Naval Historical Center address?

In message Tues, 04 Jan 94 11:16:37, MX%"olaf@kean.ucs.mun.ca"  writes:
> I hope someone out there can help me. I'm trying to contact the
> Naval Historical Center in Washington, DC. However, the address
> that I have always used in the past with success, has apparently
> been changed -- or, at least, my last communication with them was
> "Returned to Sender." The address I have been using is:
>
> Naval Historical Center
> Washington Navy Yard
> Washington, D.C.  20374-0571
> USA
>
> Have they moved or changed their address? Does anyone know their
> telephone and/or fax numbers?
>
> Thanks in advance for any assistance.
>
> Olaf Janzen                           Tel: (709) 637-6282
> Department of History                 FAX: (709) 639-8125
> Sir Wilfred Grenfell College          e-mail: olaf@kean.ucs.mun.ca
> Corner Brook, Newfoundland
> Canada
> A2H 6P9
>
No, they are still in the Navy Yard and your letter should have been
delivered, but ... this is Washington. Try this more complete address:

Naval Historical Center
Bldg. 57
Washington Navy Yard
901 M St., S.E.
Washington, D.C.  20374-5060
USA
Phone: 202-433-4131

Robert J. Doyle, Jr.
Naval Research Laboratory
Washington, DC
doyle@chem.nrl.navy.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Jan 1994 09:04:14 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: <No subject given>

Date sent:      Tue, 4 Jan 1994 10:57:22 -0500
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
From:           GEORGE BAUER <BAUER%RCKHRST1.BITNET@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
Organization:   Rockhurst College; Kansas City, MO
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>


George,

I have one or two books on this subject at the house, and will post
them tomorrow. Alexander McKee wrote a first rate book on the aerial
battle of Britain, but the name escapes me.

I have personally corresponded with one Czech who flew with the RAF
during the Battle of Britain. If you want, I can provide his name and
address. He lives in Brno, Czechoslovakia. He speaks English, and it
should be no problem to ask him for a personal account.

Hope this helps, and I will write more tomorrow.

Terry
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I have read recent postings about books dealing with Baltic people who fought
in WWII.

Does anybody know any books about Czechs that fought in WWII, particularly
Czechs who flew with the RAF and RCAF?

Thank you.


  =========================================================================
  | DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
  |                                  | Computers in Business & Education. |
  | Recently returned from my        | Education:  Curriculum development.|
  |   second extended stay           |    International Education, TEFL.  |
  |   in Prague.                     | Central Europe:  Post revolution   |
  | Working on second book about     |    economic, social, political     |
  |   Prague and new Czech Republic. |    changes and opportunities.      |
  | U.S.A. E-Mail:  BAUER@RCKHRST1   | Free lance writing and editing.    |
  |                                  | Stamp collecting.                  |
  =========================================================================


Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Jan 1994 10:16:10 -0500
From:    "Mr. Scott Hannon" <hannon@UMBC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Philippine Islands/Guerrilla Activty -- books

Lou Coatney writes:
> THEY FOUGHT ALONE is another good one, Terry.  Not to abet
>  MacArthur bashing, but I remember the author's humorous
>  recollection that they only really started receiving weapons
>  and other support after they had requested autographed
>  portraits of the General.

This is the book on Fertig, right? As I recall, he promoted himself to
General (from Col or Lt Col) in mid-1942 so as to make control of other
guerilla leaders (of similar rank to his real rank) easier. When he got
in radio contact with US/MacAthur, they were none to pleased about his
promotion ("no, you're not" basically). There was also some confusion
about whether he was really who he said he was (he didn't use a
pre-arranged code he had himself set up with a US man he rescued earlier).
So the story about the Mac autographs is most likely coincidence.

I think the Time-Life WW2 book on the Return to the Philippines mentions
his troubles.

Scott.
(hannon@umbc.edu)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Jan 1994 09:39:57 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: GERMAN VETS

Date sent:      Sat, 1 Jan 1994 12:39:46 +0100
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
From:           John Ausland <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject:        GERMAN VETS
Originally to:  World War II list <WWII-L@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu>
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

John and others!

I will try to answer your original question as fully as possible
without trying to bore you to death.

As mentioned earlier, I acquired a membership roster of the
Ordensgemeinschaft der Ritterkreuztraeger, with HQ in Frankfurt/Main,
in November, 1978. At the time, that roster contained the names and
addresses of about 1100 winners of the Knight's Cross. Well, I wrote
all of them as quickly as I could, bearing in mind that, if I didn't,
many would pass on before I could receive anything from them.

In 1979, I acquired recognition by the OdR as a collector of
documents, accounts of military careers, etc., which, when published
in their newsletter, opened the doors to those who had previously not
responded to my inquiry for this type of information. In the
meantime, I was sent an updated version of their membership roster
which contained the names of many more Knight's Cross holders, some
with international reputations. This updated version added about 200
names to my list of addresses.

Since that time, the OdR has added about 400 new members, but with
attrition, the membership number has remained about the same.

In 1979, I also contacted other collectors recognized by the OdR with
the aim of acquiring additional addresses and two long-time
collectors sent me their entire address listings containing the names
of KC winners who did not belong to the OdR. That added another 1100
names to my holdings. Thus throughout 1979-1981, I sent out form
letters on a regular basis, 5-10 per day for two years, and, I would
say that my considerable collection was acquired by 1983, in other
words, in about 5 years.

I had also acquired a membership roster of the German Fighter Pilots
Association which yielded other addresses I didn't have access to.

Another collector in St. Louis, MO, sent me the addresses of a few
more I didn't have, and so on.

In relation to this aspect of my collection, I am currently reliant
on the publication of new members of the OdR. With the fall of the
Berlin Wall, some KC holders have joined the OdR, and I have written
them all, and heard from all but 1.

My original intent in writing these people was to contact general
officers and hopefully start up a regular correspondance. This
happened several times, and all that correspondance plus all the
other, as well, has been saved. But, as also mentioned earlier, one
thing leads to another, and I began writing all of them as quickly as
I could. Usually, I will send each a letter until something is
received from them, even a returned letter, before I stop writing.
Some would not have written me otherwise, I can tell you. Some need
convincing, and this is usually done with repeated mailings, before
responding to an inquiry.

My corresponding has also led to other aspects of collecting
photographs, documents, etc. In 1983, I acquired a memberhship roster
of the American Fighter Pilots Association, which contained the names
and addresses of around 600 former fighter pilots of WWI, WWII, Korea
and Viet-Nam.

Another collector has provided me with the names of 500-600 more
people. These were mainly fighter pilots of other nations, such as
Canada, England, Russia, Belgium, France, Poland, South Africa,
Australia, New Zealand, etc.

The main employment of these people was during the Battle of Britain.
My whole intent and purpose of putting such a collection together,
was to:

    1. supplement my own reading on this subject. This makes history
live.
    2. preserve ANY story or stories that these people wish to tell.

    3. recognize and honor bravery, regardless of uniform with no
regard to politics.

    Well, that about covers it. From the 3000-4000 people with whom I
have corresponded, I can account for 99%. There are only about 200
people left in all of my address holdings from whom I have yet to
hear, but I hope to someday receive something. Currently, I am trying
to acquire some of the more rare autographs of KC holders, many who
were killed during the war.

    I am open to any additional questions and/or comment.

    At some point, I will post my holdings to Larry Jewell. I would
have already done so, but I am expecting some additional material
from Europe. When I have got this together, Larry will inform the
list.

   One other thing. For those who are interested, the Mr. Heinrich
Gerlach, the pilot of the Fieseler Storch which carried Mussolini and
Skorzeny from the Gran Sasso in the Appenines, died on 20 Oct 1993.
He was 80 years old. I had the great honor to listen to his personal
account of this exploit in 1989 while visiting a friend who arranged
this interview. The interview lasted five hours, and Mr. Gerlach used
pictures taken during the operation to explain what was happening
when it did. For his efforts, he was awarded the Knight's Cross
personally from Hermann Goering.

    I thought this might be of interest.

    Hope you weren't bored.

    Terry

----------------------------------------------------------------------


I read with great interest your message to Jim Brady about your
contact with
German vets.  Would you mind telling us how you came to be in contact with so
many of them?
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway


Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Jan 1994 10:10:18 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Philippine Islands/Guerrilla Activty -- books

Date sent:      Tue, 4 Jan 1994 10:48:08 -0600
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
From:           mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject:        Re: Philippine Islands/Guerrilla Activty -- books
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>



Lou,

Thank you for the name of that one. I am not familiar with it, and
will be on the look out for it.

Have you read anything about McArthur's conduct of the Buna-Gona
campaign of 1942? You might find, as I did, that the
sobriquet was well-deserved.

If memory serves me properly, it was here that he acquired that
nickname.

There is no doubt that MacArthur was the supreme egotist, and his
staff did idolize him, as you say, but MacArthur needed no help in
projecting this side of himself. I also recommend the book, "The Life
of a General: A Biography of Omar Bradley" by Clay Blair, Jr. that
will give you a great insight into MacArthur's character,
particularly during the Korean War.

Also, Eisenhower said of MacArthur during his (Eisenhower's) service
in the Philippines in the 1930's that he had studied "dramatics under
MacArthur". My only point is that MacArthur's egotism was evident
even then, and didn't require a staff to enhance that. I think that
with the advent of the War, the news media used MacArthur to prop up
morale at home, which made MacArthur all the more aware of
maintaining this image as an indefatigible warrior and
infallible strategist.

MacArthur may have deliberately exposed himself to enemy fire, but, I
can't help but wonder if this was also staged. You know there was
more than one "walk ashore" at Leyte. All that was carefully staged
for the cameras and home consumption.

Please don't misunderstand. I am not bashing MacArthur. There were
none keener in military matters, but my point is that MacArthur's
egotism was both used and enhanced, not only from his viewpoint, but
by the media as well.

Thanks, again, for the note, and I will be on the look out for They
Fought Alone.

Happy New Year.


Terry
----------------------------------------------------------------------


THEY FOUGHT ALONE is another good one, Terry.  Not to abet
  MacArthur bashing, but I remember the author's humorous
  recollection that they only really started receiving weapons
  and other support after they had requested autographed
  portraits of the General.

We should remember that some of his staff were responsible
  for what appeared to be HIS egotism.  Many of them idolized
  him.

My understanding is that "Dugout Doug" was wholly unjustified,
  and M. deliberately and unnecessarily exposed himself on more
  than one occasion to disprove that stereotype.

Lou Coatney, WIU


Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Jan 1994 10:19:34 CST
From:    "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer,
         Tim A." <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Ref: Army Times Subscribers

If anyone out there is a subscriber to Army Times, can you please look
out for the Army Reserve promotion list for Captain.  It should be
printed sometime in the next month and a half.  I am just wondering if I
made the board.  They will have it before anyone else does.  Tanks in
advance!  Tim

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Jan 1994 10:19:08 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: your mail

Date sent:      Tue, 4 Jan 1994 11:03:39 CST
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
From:           phyllis <U09113%UICVM.BITNET@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
Subject:        Re: your mail
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>



Ron and Phyllis,

The figure that sticks in my mind about the number of gypsies that
perished in the camps was in the neighborhood of 500,000. I can't be
certain of that, but I will try to locate my figures for you. I am
interested in this myself.

Thank you for your post and your analysis would seem correct.

Terry

----------------------------------------------------------------------
 Ron,
I apologize for what may have seemed like a sarcastic tone. It so happened
that in my U.S. History class yesterday, we discussed the Holocaust and
WWII. My students, who are often on the ball, had asked several serious
questions, particulary on the origins of anti-semitism, its particular
strain within central and eastern europe; Roosevelt and "his" decision not
to bomb the concerntration camps, etc.  The subject, even for this list, is
not an easy one. The gypsies, like Jews, stretched across countries, hence in
some ways their numbers are just as approximate as those of the Jews. We will
probably never know the exact death toll for any of the ethnic groups, either
from the camps, resistance, etc...

Phyllis
University of Illinois at chicago


Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Jan 1994 10:21:51 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: your mail

Phyllis,

After reading Steve's posting, I really must have been off the mark.
Sorry about that. Time plays strange tricks on one's memory.

Thank you.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Jan 1994 11:45:40 -0500
From:    David Rising <drising@IO.ORG>
Subject: Re: The List...

A good book on the Russo-Finish war of 1939-40 is called "A Frozen Hell".
It is written by William R. Trotter and published by Algonquin Books of
Chapel Hill, 1991.  I seem to recall getting my copy through a military
book club which I believe is associated with the Book of the Month Club
so, if you have problems finding it, that's where I'd start looking.
Dave.
drising@io.org

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Jan 1994 11:34:44 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET>
Subject: Czechs and WWII

Terry:

Yes, I would be very much interested in contacting any Czech who flew
with the RAF or RCAF in WW II.  Names and addresses would be much
appreciated.

Also, as I mentioned, I would like to contact Americans in the AAF
stationed in England.  I desperately want to contact anyone hospitalized
at Queen Victoria Hospital during the War.

Thanks.


  =========================================================================
  | DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
  |                                  | Computers in Business & Education. |
  | Recently returned from my        | Education:  Curriculum development.|
  |   second extended stay           |    International Education, TEFL.  |
  |   in Prague.                     | Central Europe:  Post revolution   |
  | Working on second book about     |    economic, social, political     |
  |   Prague and new Czech Republic. |    problems and opportunities.     |
  | U.S.A. E-Mail:                   | Free lance writing and editing.    |
  |      BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET       | Stamp collecting.                  |
  =========================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Jan 1994 13:02:38 EST
From:    Ron Babuka <WRB@CORNELLC.BITNET>
Subject: apologies

Phyllis;  No need for an apology - I didn't even read any sarcasm into your
response.  To the other listers out there - sorry I am clogging up
your readers with this but I seemed to have misplaced the mailfile with
Phyllis's address on it.


National Warplane Museum                         Ron Babuka
Geneseo, New York                                Cornell University

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Jan 1994 14:23:31 EST
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <hb9388@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ref: Army Times Subscribers

Tim,

I'll look for it and let you know.

Best wishes,

Bear

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Jan 1994 16:34:41 EST
From:    Cathy Lewis <NASSE050@SIVM.BITNET>
Subject: WWII Casualty Figures

The figure of 12 million in the camps is consistent with what I have heard (6
million jews, and 6 million "others" including slav "guest workers'). I fear t
hat those figures are at best an approximation, but they make the point. The
total casual figure is a bit more problematic. 25 million, I assume only
accounts for the war in Europe (1939-45). That figure does not take into
account the more recent Soviet figure of 35 million in losses during the war.
I don't know how they came up with that figure. At one point Murray Feshbach
and Georgetown Univ. came up with a figure for Soviet losses based on
population losses with respect to pre-war growth patterns, ie. how many people
weren't born be cause of the war. Perhaps someone remembers what those numbers
were. This discussion evades the issue of losses in Asia. My impression is
that no one has any idea how many people died in Asia. My gut tells me that
the figure rivals the losses in Europe.

Cathleen S. Lewis (NASSE050@sivm.si.edu)
National Air and Space Museum
Smithsonian Institution

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Jan 1994 17:18:56 -0600
From:    mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: Czech airmen in WW II.

George,

     The pilot of Gen. Sikorski's (ill-fated) plane which crashed on
takeoff  was Czech.  According to Janusz Zawodny, he was last known
to be living in California.

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Jan 1994 16:25:53 -0800
From:    "Jackson, Christopher R. UC Davis" <crjackson@UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: National Archives Fax-on-Demand (fwd)

I picked this off the legal history list; there are a number of items of
interest, including sound recordings of participants in World War II.

Christopher R. Jackson, UC Davis

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 1994 13:27:44 -0600
From:cfcrw@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu
To: Multiple recipients of list H-LAW <H-LAW%UICVM.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Subject: National Archives Fax-on-Demand

 From: Debra Steidel Wall <VUW%CU.NIH.GOV@UICVM.UIC.EDU>

 This message was  originally submitted by VUW@CU.NIH.GOV to the  H-FILM list at
 The Nontextual Archives Division of the National Archives
 announces the installation of its fax-on-demand system, which
 allows researchers to select and receive pamphlets and other
 material via fax.  The system, which can be reached at (301) 713-
 6905, must be called from a fax machine.  There is no charge for
 the service except for any long distance phone charges the caller
 may incur.

 We invite you to test the system, which currently contains moving
 notices, general information leaflets, select lists, reference
 reports, and other finding aid material.  We would appreciate any
 comments, suggestions, or criticisms.  Please contact Debra Wall
 via e-mail at vuw@cu.nih.gov, or at (202) 501-5449.

 A list of documents currently available on the system follows.
 We will add new documents regularly.


             National Archives Fax-on-Demand System
                         (301) 713-6905

 NUMBER    DESCRIPTION                                     PAGES

 GENERAL
    1 List of available documents (this document)
 1000 Information About the National Archives for Prospective
      Researchers                                              6

 CLOSE NOTICES
 2001 Motion Picture, Sound, and Video Branch Close Notice     1
 2002 Still Picture Branch Close Notice                        1
 2003 Cartographic and Architectural Branch Close Notice       1


 MOTION PICTURE, SOUND, AND VIDEO BRANCH
 3000 Motion Pictures and Sound and Video Recordings in the
      National Archives                                        3
 3001 National Archives Gift Collection Acquisition Policy:
      Motion Pictures & Sound and Video Recordings             4
 3002 Copyright Warning Notice                                 1
 3003 List of freelance film researchers in the D.C. area      1
 3100 An Overview of card catalogs in the Motion Picture,
      Sound, and Video Branch                                  2
 3130 Presidential Inaugural Addresses and Oaths of Offices:
      Sound Recordings                                         1
 3131 Presidential Inaugural Addresses and Oaths of Offices:
      Film and Video                                           1
 3201 Select Audiovisual Records: Captured German Sound
      Recordings                                              13
 3202 Select Audiovisual Records: The Crucial Decade: Voices
      of the Postwar Era 1945-54                              20
 3203 Select Audiovisual Records, Sound Recordings: Voices of
      World War II, 1937-1945                                  9
 3300 A Selection of Historical Motion Pictures in the
      National Archives                                        2
 3401 Reference Report: Audiovisual Records Relating to D-Day  6


 STILL PICTURE BRANCH
 4000 Information for Prospective Researchers About the Still
      Picture Branch of the National Archives                  7
 4100 Select Audiovisual Records: Pictures of African
      Americans During World War II                           20
 4102 Select Audiovisual Records: Pictures of World War II    13
 4104 Select Audiovisual Records: Pictures of United States
      Navy Ships                                              10
 4106 Select Audiovisual Records: Pictures of the Civil War   11
 4108 Select Audiovisual Records: Photographs of the American
      West, 1861-1912                                         11
 4110 Select Audiovisual Records: Pictures of the Revolutionary
      War                                                      8
 4112 Select Audiovisual Records: Pictures of Indians in the
      United States                                           11
 4114 Select Audiovisual Records: Pictures of the American
      City                                                    10
 4116 Select Audiovisual Records: Pictures from the Harmon
      Foundation, Artwork and Art Activities                   8
 4118 Select Audiovisual Records: Contemporary African Art
      from the Harmon Foundation                              10

 Cartographic and Architectural Branch
 5000 Cartographic and Architectural Branch General Information
      Leaflet                                                  8




 Updated: January 4, 1994

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Jan 1994 02:14:11 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVSDS.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: Czech airmen in WW II.

>      The pilot of Gen. Sikorski's (ill-fated) plane which crashed on
> takeoff  was Czech.  According to Janusz Zawodny, he was last known
> to be living in California.

This pilot -- Prchal -- returned to Czechoslavakia after the war, but soon
found the government there unbearable; he stole an aircraft to return to
Britain. He could find no job there, so he went to the USA, were, if I
remember well, he had a job as language teacher at some military education
institution. He died not so long ago, and was buried in Britain.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Jan 1994 20:26:18 -0600
From:    mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: Prchal

Thanks, Emmanuel, for the update.  I wonder if he was teaching
  Czech at the Defense Dept.'s language school in Monterey(?)

Lou

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Jan 1994 20:34:34 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Prchal

The language school was at the Presidio, wasn't it?


  =========================================================================
  | DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
  |                                  | Computers in Business & Education. |
  | Recently returned from my second | Education:  Curriculum development.|
  |   extended stay in Prague.       |    International Education, TEFL.  |
  |                                  | Central Europe:  Post revolution   |
  | Working on second book about     |    economic, social, political     |
  |   Prague and new Czech Republic. |    problems and opportunities.     |
  | E-Mail:                          | Free lance writing and editing.    |
  |   USA:  BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET    | Stamp collecting.                  |
  =========================================================================

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 4 Jan 1994 to 5 Jan 1994
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 20 messages totalling 574 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Queen Mary
  2. Help set RELEVANT MAIL
  3. GERMAN VETS
  4. WWII Casualty Figures (4)
  5. GEN: Charging Windmills (8)
  6. GERMAN VETERANS
  7. The List...
  8. Correction on Soviet population losses
  9. Soviet losses at end of the war
 10. Prchal

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Jan 1994 11:00:55 CET
From:    "LTC Donnell, Doug" <4atf@PIRMASENS-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Queen Mary

Hello to everyone.  I'm new to the list and have been enjoying the
information and exchanges for the past month or so.  Reading about the
QEI and Q Mary as troop ships I thought I'd jump in and add my $.02.

My dad told me once about his trip to England, in style, aboard the
Queen Mary.  As was mentioned in the other postings, there were over
10000 troops on board (actually about 15000 as I recall).  As a 2Lt
my father got a 1st class stateroom which he shared with about 7
others.  They were so packed in that the last cot went into place
only after the door was closed (hence you didn't want to have to get
up for any reason in the middle of the night).  Also, as an officer
he told me that he actually got to SIT for dinner.  The enlisted troops
went through the serving line, ate on the move, and turned in their
trays at the end of the line.  Needless to say everyone was much
relieved to finally make it to England.

                           Doug Donnell
                           Ruppertsweiler, Germany

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Jan 1994 12:11:09 +0100
From:    Allan Myrvang <Amyrvang@BBB.NO>
Subject: Help set RELEVANT MAIL

A cry for help!

First I would like to wish you all a happy new year and the
peace negotiators, wherever they strive to reduce hostilities
and atrocities, may they be more successful in 1994 than in the
year we have left behind us!!

Then I would be grateful to get some help. I would of course
like to be a full member of the WW II-conference, but then there
is the volume of messages to consider. My telephone bill would
soar, I'm afraid. Hence, it would be more practical for me to
to be able to get discussions under specific subject headings,
say < WW II Mysteries >. I'm choosing this reference on purpose.
The fact is that I in last August asked you some questions about
Hitler and Stalin under this Subject Title, and I intended to take
part in the possible discussion, should my provocative questions
lead to one, but then I got the victim of a total system collapse
and only now am I ready to resume where I was before I was thrown
off the cart....

In other words : What should I write to LISTSERV to get only what
I find to be relevant mail (remember the phone bill)? If I would go
on discussing < WW II Mysteries > for instance?

Thanks in advance!
Allan Myrvang
Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Jan 1994 07:28:00 -0500
From:    Kevin Kamphaus <usr5066a@TSO.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: GERMAN VETS

Bored! No way. I would love to read some of these personal accounts. Would it
be possible to send out some of the more remarkable stories to the list? Maybe
without using names.  And a question, are a lot of these men afraid of public
scorn or retribution, and thats why they are reluctant to correspond with you?


Kevin Kamphaus
usr5066a@tsol.uc.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Jan 1994 07:53:11 EST
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: WWII Casualty Figures

On Wed, 5 Jan 1994 16:34:41 EST Cathy Lewis said:
>The figure of 12 million in the camps is consistent with what I have heard (6
>million jews, and 6 million "others" including slav "guest workers'). I fear t
>hat those figures are at best an approximation, but they make the point. The
>total casual figure is a bit more problematic. 25 million, I assume only
>accounts for the war in Europe (1939-45). That figure does not take into
>account the more recent Soviet figure of 35 million in losses during the war.

I've always heard 50+ million for WWII, at least 20+ million for the USSR,
6 million Jews, 6 million Poles--but the categories overlap:  3 million
Polish Jews, 3 million Polish Catholics--4 million Russian P.O.W.s, etc.
I doubt anyone really has a definitive answer to the question; I've seen
estimates as high as 100 million--although that may be including WWI & all
the nastiness in between.  I find this all induces number numbness once I
run out of fingers & toes (or, at least, go stones in my case); the mind
really can't visualize a million of anything & I suspect at times that the
enumerators have all run into the same problem.

ken koester
maint2@ers.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Jan 1994 08:55:58 EST
From:    Doug McCabe <mccabe@OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: GEN: Charging Windmills

                   Ohio University Electronic Communication


   Date:  06-Jan-1994 08:54am EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject:  GEN: Charging Windmills






Received:  06-Jan-1994 08:55am


                   Ohio University Electronic Communication


   Date:  04-Jan-1994 04:19pm EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject: GEN: Charging Windmills


    I have just been informed I will be going to The Netherlands for about
    a week beginning on about the 14th of January.  This is in relation to
    the planning for the 50th anniversary of MARKET-GARDEN.  It looks
    assured that Ohio University will put on display materials from the
    Cornelius Ryan collection relating to his book _A Bridge Too Far_.  We
    are sure to do a display in Nijmegen and might do the same in Groesbeek
    and Eindhoven.  Obviously, we're concentrating on the American areas of
    operation for the events in September. <I guess you could say we're
    siding with the Allied winners in the operation.>

    As plans now stand, we'll visit Amsterdam, The Hague, and then do
    "Hell's Highway" from Eindhoven through Nijmegen to Arnhem.  There will
    be stops along the way to visit officials, museums, and sites.  Any of
    you have suggestions on where we should go, what we should see, anyone
    we should meet?

    Doug McCabe
    mccabe@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Jan 1994 09:23:16 EST
From:    Charles Reace <creace@ISD.CSC.COM>
Subject: Re: GEN: Charging Windmills

>     and Eindhoven.  Obviously, we're concentrating on the American areas of
>     operation for the events in September. <I guess you could say we're
>     siding with the Allied winners in the operation.>

Hmmm... As I recall, the 82nd had not yet captured the Nijmegen bridge
when 30 corps arrived, even though 30 corps gave them a lot of extra time
to do so.  Does this constitute winning?

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <creace@isd.csc.com>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Jan 1994 09:45:00 +0500
From:    HORNERJA@SNYBSCVA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU
Subject: Re: GEN: Charging Windmills

Hello, I'm new to this discussion list and I've just been kind of browsing
until now.  The whole question of the "winners" in MARKET GARDEN (even though
it was obviously made in jest) is really none of the allies.  Even though the
corridor was held after the operation was over, the result was costly and
inconclusive.  The area could no be used as a springboard into the Rhineland
(as Monty wanted - On to Berlin!) until the spring, and the Dutch in Ahrnem was
the subject of terrible retribution from the Germans.  So did either ally win?
Hardly, the Germans "won" a costly victory to buy a month or two of breathing
space that allowed the Soviets to penetrate deeper into Germany by war's end,
and kept the Western allies from reaching Berlin first.  So who won?  The
Soviets, to my way of thinking.

John Horner
SUNY at Delhi

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Jan 1994 09:21:26 -0500
From:    "M. Joseph Barone" <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: WWII Casualty Figures

From: Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>:
> I've always heard 50+ million for WWII, at least 20+ million for the USSR,
> 6 million Jews, 6 million Poles--but the categories overlap:  3 million
> Polish Jews, 3 million Polish Catholics--4 million Russian P.O.W.s, etc.
> I doubt anyone really has a definitive answer to the question; I've seen
> estimates as high as 100 million--although that may be including WWI & all
> the nastiness in between.

Even using a figure of 50 millions, this is a significant percentage
of the human population at the time.  Have there been any studies
to determine what the world's population would be today if WWII had
not occurred?  Just curious.
--
Joe Barone
m1b@rayssd.ssd.ray.com
These tanks are faster than any other tanks in the European theater
of operations, forwards or backwards.  See, man, we like to feel that
we can get out of trouble quicker than we got into it.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Jan 1994 16:13:40 +0100
From:    John Ausland <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: GERMAN VETERANS

  Oslo, January 6.  FOR TERRY MOORE
  I am deeply impressed by the work you have done in gathering information
from German veterans and hope you will make it readily available to researchers
at some point.
  Have you written anything based on this work?
  I wish I had known about you when I was doing research for my book LETTERS
HOME.  As it was, I had to rely mainly on the multi-volume series of interviews
with German generals right after the war, edited by Detwiler.  I found this
extremely interesting, since I was able to read the views of the generals
commanding the units we faught at various places and to quote them in my book.
  There is one thing that really puzzles me.  During the war, I tried to keep
the Germans and the Hitler regime separate in my mind.  As the war wore on,
however, I found this more and more difficult.  By the time we crossed the
Rhine, we were really angry and, as a result, destructive.  It was clear the
Germans had lost the war, but they kept on fighting us until a few days before
VE-Day.  This led to our destroying the beautiful town of Ellwangen, near
Munich, a story I tell in my book and will perhaps tell here when that
anniversary approaches.
  When reading the Detwiler series, the thing that struck me was that all the
generals criticized how Hitler conducted the war, but I found none that were
critical of the fact that he conducted it.
  What have you found when talking with the Germans you have interviewed?
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway
  PS  I was living in Wichita Falls when I enlisted in the Army shortly after
Pearl Harbor.  Before that, I lived in Childress as a boy and worked at KVWC in
Vernon for awhile.  My father worked for the railroad.  My mother lived in
Amarillo for awhile after my father, brother, and I went into the services.
Hence, I have been to Amarillo many times but not for a half century.  I have
pleasant memories of a girl I knew there.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Jan 1994 11:09:49 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <kc5318@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: The List...

>I too am pleased with the people and the subjects and the way both are dealt
>with on this listserv. I withdrew from the V-WAR listserv due to the FLAME-
>WARS  some people commonly had. Disagreements will happen but just because
>you disagree doesn't make the others stupid, rude, loud, etc...
>Enough, Enough, Enough...
>    Changing subjects, has anyone read or heard of any books dealing with
>the war/battles between Finland and Germany and or Finland and Russia??
>All help appreciated!! In advance I thank you!!
>
>                                               Michael Oaks
>
>                             _______
>Michael Oaks                | TRUST,|
>Kennesaw State College      |   o  _|_____
>P.O. BOX 444                |___|_|  BUT  |
>Mareitta, Ga. 30061               |   o  _|_____
>moaks@kscmail.Kennesaw.Edu        |___|_|VERIFY.|
>(404)499-3049  FAX # (404)423-6541      |   o   |
>                                        |___|___|
>

Michael,
     I swear we just discussed this, maybe on another net, though.  Look at
V.A. Tanner, THE WINTER WAR and Marshal Mannerheim's MEMOIRS.
                                                  LTC Con Crane
                                                  USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Jan 1994 11:37:32 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: GEN: Charging Windmills

In Doug's message of  6 Jan 1994 at 0807 CST, he writes:

>     As plans now stand, we'll visit Amsterdam, The Hague, and then do
>     "Hell's Highway" from Eindhoven through Nijmegen to Arnhem.  There will
>     be stops along the way to visit officials, museums, and sites.  Any of
>     you have suggestions on where we should go, what we should see, anyone
>     we should meet?
>
>     Doug McCabe
>     mccabe@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu


YOU LUCKY DOG!!!!!!!

What a sweet deal.  Man.....  Yeah, if you get a chance to visit
Belgium and Luxembourg go see the Victory Museum near Arlon,
Luxembourg.  Its absolutely astonishing.  There are minor errors with
some of the uniformed dummies (Army NCOs with Luftwaffe operational
flying clasps) but the vehicles are fabulous.  You won't be
disappointed.  The museum is run by the same folks who run the
Bastogne Historical Center in Bastogne, Belgium.  That museum is the
first of its kind and is worth visiting but is eclipsed by its
younger brother in Arlon.  If you get to visit Diekirch, there is a
Battle of the Bulge museum there which is quite nice too.

I realize these are Battle of the Bulge museums but they are the ones
I have been to and are excellent museums.  The town of Tongern in
Holland is said to be home of the largest Flea Market in Europe
(debatable) but some WWII items pop up there.  I got a rare German
secure paper tape teletype (that a local's father liberated from a
command vehicle during the war) on my visit there.  It was the kind
of device that could send and receive messages when hooked to the
encryption device and then the radio.  Shame he didn't lift the
encryption device too.  The guy's dad though he could modify it and
use it as a typewriter but never got around to fooling with it (thank
God).  Never know what you'll find in flea markets.

Check them out if you get a chance.

Regards,  Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Jan 1994 14:30:29 -0500
From:    David Rising <drising@IO.ORG>
Subject: Re: WWII Casualty Figures

Cathy, I just recently heard in lecture (on a course studying the
holocaust) that the Japanese were responsible for the deaths of some 20
million Chinese during the war.  I'm not sure if this figure is for both
military and civilians or for civilians only.  I'll make sure to ask in
the next lecture (Tuesday).  Just thought you'd be interested.
David Rising
drising@io.org

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Jan 1994 14:41:33 -0500
From:    David Rising <drising@IO.ORG>
Subject: Re: GEN: Charging Windmills

On Thu, 6 Jan 1994 HORNERJA@SNYBSCVA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU wrote:

> Hello, I'm new to this discussion list and I've just been kind of browsing
> until now.  The whole question of the "winners" in MARKET GARDEN (even though
> it was obviously made in jest) is really none of the allies.  Even though the
> corridor was held after the operation was over, the result was costly and
> inconclusive.  The area could no be used as a springboard into the Rhineland
> (as Monty wanted - On to Berlin!) until the spring, and the Dutch in Ahrnem was
> the subject of terrible retribution from the Germans.  So did either ally win?
> Hardly, the Germans "won" a costly victory to buy a month or two of breathing
> space that allowed the Soviets to penetrate deeper into Germany by war's end,
> and kept the Western allies from reaching Berlin first.  So who won?  The
> Soviets, to my way of thinking.
>
> John Horner
> SUNY at Delhi
>
John, if you use this line of reasoning, the Allied grunts won out in the
end.  The Soviets were "allowed" to take both Berlin and Prague by the
Western Allies.  In other words, the Soviets were "allowed" to lose
countless men in bitter fighting over symbolic cities while the Western
Allies played in the Elbe.  After the war, the Red Army withdrew from
both of these cities and they became a part of the joint occupation.  It
wasn't until later that they (not Berlin but E. Germany and Czech.) came
under total Soviet control.
David Rising
drising@io.org

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Jan 1994 14:01:52 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET>
Subject: Re: GEN: Charging Windmills

David states that the Red Army lost countless men on their way to Berlin
and Prague.  Just how many is countless?  In other words, what was the
extent of the resistance they encountered?

And while it may be true that the Red Army left Czechoslovakia in 1945
(I don't know the facts on that) but the Soviet Union was undoubtedly
exerting effective control in Czehoslovakia, having received 40 percent
of the vote in 1946.

But I would be interested in a more complete discussion of this point..


  =========================================================================
  | DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
  |                                  | Computers in Business & Education. |
  | Recently returned from my second | Education:  Curriculum development.|
  |   extended stay in Prague.       |    International Education, TEFL.  |
  |                                  | Central Europe:  Post revolution   |
  | Working on second book about     |    economic, social, political     |
  |   Prague and new Czech Republic. |    problems and opportunities.     |
  | E-Mail:                          | Free lance writing and editing.    |
  |   USA:  BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET    | Stamp collecting.                  |
  =========================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Jan 1994 15:09:39 EST
From:    Cathy Lewis <NASSE050@SIVM.BITNET>
Subject: Correction on Soviet population losses

The study on losses in population growth resulting from World War II on the
USSR was not done by Murray Feshbach, but was a Soviet study. The estimate was
that by 1959, the Soviet Union had 50 million fewer people than it would have,
had normal population growth continued from 1941. This study takes into
account the slowed population recovery due to the absence of males first the
first generation after the war. The citation is: V.V. Pokshiishevskii,
_Geografiia naseleniia sssr: ekonomiko-geograficheskie ocherki_ (Moscow,
Proveshchenie, 1971).

Would you all find it useful to tally up the numbers? Now that we've gotten
this far, I would find it instructive to know exactly what magnitude we're
talking about. With only figures on the Soviets, concentration camp victims
and Chin a, I have a total of 62 million (77 million, if one counts the
morerecent Soviet numbers). It there a classic article out there on this
subject? And does anyone know what the world population was in 1939? I'll be
keeping a tally as the numbers come in. Right now, we seem to be talking about
5%+ of the world population dying within the period of one decade.

Cathleen S. Lewis (NASSE050@sivm.si.edu)
National Air and Space Museum
Smithsonian Institution

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Jan 1994 15:15:36 EST
From:    Cathy Lewis <NASSE050@SIVM.BITNET>
Subject: Soviet losses at end of the war

I don't have the numbers in front of me (my copy of Erickson is at home), but
the common wisdom was that the Soviet Army suffered slightly more than half of
its losses on the advance from Stalingrad to Berlin. It's worth noting that
they lost two men for every German soldier killed *while advancing against the
Germans.* As far as how many of these losses were due to actual fightingand
how may resulted from NKVD rear guard action, that's a good question.

Cathleen S. Lewis (NASSE050@sivm.si.edu)
National Air and Space Museum
Smithsonian Institution

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Jan 1994 15:58:18 -0600
From:    mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: Re: WWII Casualty Figures

Cathy,

     An authoritative source which still has credibility is Iosif
Dyadkin's UNNATURAL DEATHS ....  Dyadkin was a geologist in Kalinin
who published in 1984 his estimate of 20 million dead of Stalinism.
For his trouble, he spent some time in the Gulag -- Yes!  even in
1984.

     It is a smallish little thing, but Robert -- THE GREAT TERROR
and STALIN:  BREAKER OF NATIONS -- Conquest (of the Hoover Institute)
thinks highly of it.

     There has for a long time been a bitter debate waged by leftist
historians questioning Stalinist deaths anywhere over 5-7 million
people.

     It is of great importance to some people who exterminated more
people:  Hitler (to enforce racism) or Stalin (to enforce political
correctness).   ... which exterminated more people: ...

     I briefly covered this sordid debate in my thesis about the
Katyn Massacre's challenge to the West(ern intelligentsia).

Lou Coatney, Western Illinois University, Macomb, Illinois

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 00:29:19 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVSDS.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: Prchal

> Thanks, Emmanuel, for the update.  I wonder if he was teaching
>   Czech at the Defense Dept.'s language school in Monterey(?)

I don't know... All I've read about Prchals later life is ten
lines at the end of an article...

Emmanuel.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Jan 1994 19:05:00 +0500
From:    HORNERJA@SNYBSCVA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU
Subject: Re: GEN: Charging Windmills

David, you bring up a number of interesting points.  While it is true
that the Soviets were "allowed" to take Berlin and Prague by the Western
Allies because of the Rankin-C joint agreement (that defined the post-
war boundaries of central europe), Churchill, among others vehemently
pushed for an all out push to take Berlin.  And, indeed, the Germans
themselves seemed much happier to surrender to the Western Allies than
the Soviets.  In the final weeks of the war, rumours spread around  Ber-
lin that the Americans were on their way, if the western front could
 just hold out.  Of course, this is not to say that the g
germans would have simply withdrew and allowed the Americans and British
to waltz into Berlin, but the fanatical resistance put up vs. the Russians
probably would not have occurred in the east.  My original point was that
if MARKET GARDEN had not occurred, the terrible supply situation may have
lessened (Patton, for one, was very upset that MARKET GARDEN was using
up "his" supplies) and the drive to Berlin may have been even more swift.
It is only a matter of speculation, but it is not out of the realm of
possiblity that an earlier thrust into the rhineland, with the Soviets
still regrouping on the Vistula, would have been allowed to continue on
to Berlin.
Thanks for replying, David, I look forward to your next comments.

John Horner
SUNY at Delhi
Hornerja@snydelva.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Jan 1994 21:13:39 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET>
Subject: Re: GEN: Charging Windmills

I am very interested in the conversation about Prague and Berlin, and how
the Russians and the United States ended up where they did.

As I remember my history, Roosevelt, Stalin, and Churchill agreed to give
to Stalin the right to enter PRague first.  In fact, according to one of
my Czech friends, he told me that General Patton (or possibly a member
of his unit) entered Prague and offered to come in if he got an invitation.
But he was not asked.  As a result, hundreds of Czechs were killed as
they resisted the Germans until General Vlasov entered the city.

But the story is hazy for me from here on.  Does anybody know the story of
General Vlasov and how he was subsequently treated.  I understand that the
Soviets considered him a traitor, but I don't know the story.

Can anyone help me?


  =========================================================================
  | DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
  |                                  | Computers in Business & Education. |
  | Recently returned from my second | Education:  Curriculum development.|
  |   extended stay in Prague.       |    International Education, TEFL.  |
  |                                  | Central Europe:  Post revolution   |
  | Working on second book about     |    economic, social, political     |
  |   Prague and new Czech Republic. |    problems and opportunities.     |
  | E-Mail:                          | Free lance writing and editing.    |
  |   USA:  BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET    | Stamp collecting.                  |
  =========================================================================

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 5 Jan 1994 to 6 Jan 1994
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 23 messages totalling 1285 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Correction on Soviet population losses
  2. CASABLANCA
  3. GEN: Charging Windmills (10)
  4. Hell's Highway, and Re: Intriguing flea market!
  5. CASABLANCA and chess
  6. The origin and hierarchy of ranks
  7. Soviet losses at end of the war (2)
  8. USAAF 4-9 JAN 44
  9. Blue Angels and Thunderbirds Schedule
 10. USAAF 4-9Jan44/ B-17 vs. B-24 question (2)
 11. General Vlasov and Prague
 12. Vlasov's fate, a source, and an Alaska application

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 08:15:12 EST
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Correction on Soviet population losses

On Thu, 6 Jan 1994 15:09:39 EST Cathy Lewis said:
>Would you all find it useful to tally up the numbers? Now that we've gotten
>this far, I would find it instructive to know exactly what magnitude we're
>talking about. With only figures on the Soviets, concentration camp victims
>and Chin a, I have a total of 62 million (77 million, if one counts the
>morerecent Soviet numbers). It there a classic article out there on this
>subject? And does anyone know what the world population was in 1939? I'll be
>keeping a tally as the numbers come in. Right now, we seem to be talking about
>5%+ of the world population dying within the period of one decade.

That percentage seems high.  World pop in 1939 has to have been over 2 billion.

ken koester
maint2@ers.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 08:35:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: CASABLANCA

I don't want to start a fire fight here, but I tend to agree with the
noted American film critic Leonard Maltin when he says that the film
CASABLANCA is "our candidate for the best Hollywood movie of all time."
For those of you who have not seen the film, the story takes place in
Casablanca, French Morocoo during December 1941 and currency,
specifically French Francs, are mentioned numerious times in the film;
this leads to the following questions:

1. Was the same currency used in Occupied France and Vichy France
during December 1941?

2. What currency was used in the French Territories, e.g., Algeria,
French Morocco, Madagascar, etc.?

3. What was the exchange rate between US dollars and French Francs in
December 1941?

(Actually, I am trying to figure out how much Rick could have made from
selling those fictitious Letters of Transit.)

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 09:51:35 EST
From:    Doug McCabe <mccabe@OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN: Charging Windmills

                   Ohio University Electronic Communication


   Date:  07-Jan-1994 09:51am EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject:  Re: GEN: Charging Windmills


    Charles Reace wrote: "As I recall, the 82nd had not yet captured the
    Nijmegen bridge when 30 corps arrived, even though 30 corps gave them a
    lot of extra time to do so.  Does this constitute winning?"

    The 82nd captured the north and south entrances of the railroad and
    highway bridges on the evening of 20 September, four days after landing
    in Holland.  This was the final task assigned to the division to be
    successfully completed:  all missions assigned to the 82nd (and the
    101st) were successful and most within the time required in the
    MARKET-GARDEN plan.  It is in this sense that I mean the Americans
    "won."  That it took the 82nd "a lot of extra time" to get the bridges
    was more because the operational assignment was too ambitious for one
    lightly armed division (especially against a greater number of enemy
    than originally estimated) than because of any failure in command or
    execution by the 82nd.

    The British long made it look like they were the ones to capture the
    bridges, for the most part ignoring one of the greatest feats ever
    accomplished by a small unit action.  I am referring to the amazingly
    bold and awe-inspiring river assult made by the 3rd Bt., of the 504
    PIR, 82nd Abn. Div. on the afternoon of 20 September whereby these men
    carried canvas boats across open ground, up and over a dyke, through
    the river (approx. 200 yds wide) and over 600 yds of open ground on the
    north side and all this time under intense rifle to 88mm fire.  In the
    records I have available to me there is no question that the first
    British tank from XXX Corps was met on the north side of the highway
    bridge by Lt. Richard G. La Riviere (most often called Rivers) and his
    men.  Riviere made the highway bridge at about 1700 hrs and immediately
    cut any wires he could find.  Men of the 82nd who crossed the river and
    got the bridges then immediately fanned out into a perimeter for the
    British to use as the next jump off point for the final 8 mile drive to
    link up with the British 1st Airborne and the Polish 1st Parachute
    Brigade being slaughtered at Arnhem and Oosterbeek.  The British
    refused to immediately exploit the breakthrough.


    John Horner notes (my paraphrase) that the Soviets won (by penetrating
    deeper than they sould have been allowed and getting Berlin) because
    MARKET-GARDEN failed, what was captured could not be exploited until
    the following spring, the Dutch greatly suffered from the failed
    liberation, and the Germans had their last battle victory of the war.

    John, I'll take the easy way out on this one <what a cop-out, right?>
    by recommending you read some of the many books and articles on what
    happened in the last six months of the war in Europe and the "what
    might have been's."  <I would recommend Cornelius Ryan's _The Last
    Battle_ as one of those books.>  Then see if your conclusion is still
    the same or due some revision.

    Doug McCabe



Received:  07-Jan-1994 09:51am

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 10:15:57 EST
From:    Charles Reace <creace@ISD.CSC.COM>
Subject: Re: GEN: Charging Windmills

I did not mean to imply, if it was taken that way, that the 82nd did a
poor job, much the opposite!  I think what I was trying to say was that
it was unfair to claim the US units succeeded while implying the British
failed.  The British 1st Airborne captured the north end of the Arnhem
bridge on the first day, and held it much longer than expected.  Yes, the
82nd captured the Nijmegen bridge in a valiant assault, using boats
brought up by 30 Corps.

But I have to wonder what would have happened if things had worked for
the 82nd like the planners had (over-optimiscally) expected.  If (and
it was in retrospect a very big "if") the 82nd had been in full pos-
session of the bridge when 30 Corps arrived, *perhaps* 30 Corps could
have penetrated through to Arnhem in time to gain it as well.

But back to the original point, I only wanted to clear up the slap in
the face to the thousands who died/wounded/captured of the British 1st
airborne, who held out against unbelievable odds for a long time; and
if 30 Corps had arrived on schedule somehow . . .   Oh well, there are
few sadder phrases than "if only".

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <creace@isd.csc.com>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 09:52:14 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: GEN: Charging Windmills

In Dr. Bauer's message of  6 Jan 1994 at 2119 CST, he writes:

> But the story is hazy for me from here on.  Does anybody know the story of
> General Vlasov and how he was subsequently treated.  I understand that the
> Soviets considered him a traitor, but I don't know the story.
>
> Can anyone help me?

Hi George,

I know that General Vlasov (may have two "s"es?) commanded a Cossack
division in the Ukraine (I believe) and together with his entire
division defected to the Germans who used them as a Cavalry unit
attached to the German Army.  They sewed German national insignias
(spread winged eagle gripping a laurel wreath with a swastika inside)
on their cossack uniforms and stuck the hat insignias on their
traditional hat and off they went.

The defection came in 1941 early into the Russian campaign.  A badge
was created to commemorate the event called the "Don Cossacks Badge",
an example of which resides in my collection :-)  I also have one of
their hats with the German Army style hat eagle and national colors
"pip".

As for the Vlassov Legion and General Vlassov I know things did not
go well for them with the defeat of Germany.  They were not alone
though as there were volunteer units made up of virtually every
occupied province of Russia.  SS units were made up of volunteers
>from Latvia (2 "divisions"), Lithuania, Estonia and at least 2 from
Russia.  The Army formed many more units each of which had a sleeve
patch in their provincial colors and often heraldic symbols.

These units served all over Europe.  I think I was told that the
Vlassov Legion served in Northern Italy near Padova.  I know for a
fact that many foreign volunteers are buried at the German Army
cemetery at Costermano near lake Garda because I saw the graves
myself but I'm not sure if they are from Legion Vlassov.  I know that
some of the foreign troops buried there were killed in anti-partisan
operations in Italy during 1944-45.

Russian volunteer Army units were even used in the Normandy operation
and were manning positions on the Atlantic Wall when US troops came
ashore.  One of the books on the landings mentions coming across
troops with the "POA" patch on their sleeve which the US forces knew
to be Russian in origin.  In typical US style the troops said the
"POA" stood for "Pals Of Adolf" (I love it!).

A while back there was discussion of the Al Stewart song "Roads to
Russia" (excellent song BTW) and in the lyrics is mentioned the fate
of the soldier who's tale is being told.  He had fought from the
opening of Barbarossa to the fall of Berlin and when mustered out
they asked him about the occasion that he was taken prisoner.  He
escaped and rejoined the Russian Army fighting to the end but was
sent to a Gulag in Russia to finish his days because of Stalin's
suspicion of anyone who fell into German hands.  Stalin's own son met
a similar fate when he was captured by the Germans in the early
stages of the campaign.  The Germans thought they could ransom
Stalin's son as they had in Denmark but Stalin basically told the
Germans to go ahead and kill him.  I think he did eventually die in a
German POW camp.

Over the weekend I'll see what else I have on Vlassov but that's all I
can think of for now.

Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 10:13:47 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: Hell's Highway, and Re: Intriguing flea market!

In Niek's message of  7 Jan 1994 at 0317 CST, he writes:

> Answer part 2: Bill Huber suggested a detour to the Ardennes:
> >
> > What a sweet deal.  Man.....  Yeah, if you get a chance to visit
> > Belgium and Luxembourg go see the Victory Museum near Arlon,
> > Luxembourg.  Its absolutely astonishing. (...)
> >
> Never been there, so I can't comment.

Its new.  It opened in 1991, I believe.

> > I realize these are Battle of the Bulge museums but they are the ones
> > I have been to and are excellent museums.  The town of Tongern in
> > Holland is said to be home of the largest Flea Market in Europe
> > (debatable) but some WWII items pop up there. [description of finds
> > deleted]
> >
> Mmm. Tongeren is the capital, I think, of the Belgian province Limburg.
> The Dutch provinces North- and South-Holland are a bit out of the way.
> It is however close to Maastricht in The Netherlands, a place dating
> back to Roman times. (other neat info deleted for brevity)
>
> Niek van Diepen, Nijmegen, The Netherlands (niekd@cs.kun.nl)
> (for owners of Victory Games' Hell's Highway: I am living in the clear
> hex just west of the Maas-Waal-Canal south of the highway -- things
> have changed a bit there since 1944.)

I bow to the home court advantage.  I got lost as hell trying to find
that town so I could have been in Zaire for all I knew.  I remember
going back and forth through Belgium and Holland looking for a road
out of Brussels that was supposed to go there and ended up going via
Maastricht so I would put a lot of confidence in Mr. van Diepen's
directions.  Either way, its a beautiful area and if I were to get
lost anywhere I can't think of a better place :-)

Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 11:17:00 +0500
From:    HORNERJA@SNYBSCVA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU
Subject: Re: GEN: Charging Windmills

Once more into the breach dear friends........
Doug, firstly, I totally agree about the 82nd Airborne's taking of the
Nijmegen bridge as one of the most daring and spectacular small unit actions
of the whole war.  As for who pulled the detonator wires from the bridge
approaches, I tend to agree the 82nd was responsible for it, but I like
the story of the Dutch Underground soldier Jan Van Hoof, who infiltrated
the German lines, reached the bridge and heroically cut the lines.  It's
probably not true, but a Dutch commission in 1949 concluded that he was
probably partly responsible.  Like Cornelius Ryan, I guess I go for the
romantic partisan, but your probably right.

As for the end of the war result, I still feel that had the Western
Allies been able to approach Germany without the MARKET GARDEN disaster,
the pressure would have been on Ike to keep going.  After all, the Allied
Airborne units were strongly considered for a drop on Berlin itself in
the closing phases of the war (in the event of a German collapse), so it
is not unlikely that had the western Allies been in a position to exploit
such a situation earlier (such as if they were significantly closer to
Berlin) they would have at least considered it.

As for the Ryan book "The Last Battle," I consider this, as well as "A
Bridge Too Far" and "The Longest Day" required reading for any student
of World War II.  No library is complete without them.

Thanks for the info, I would be very interested in reading your articles.
Where can I find them?  Thanks, see ya,

John Horner
SUNY at Delhi
Hornerja@snydelva.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 16:19:03 GMT
From:    Stephen Baldwin <smb@NETMGRS.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: GEN: Charging Windmills

Re Arnhem etc, nothing to do with the tactical debate but it just reminded
me that 2nd half of 1993, the lady known as The Angel of Arnhem, can't remember
her name, but she tended many wounded/dying soldiers,
and is depicted in "A Bridge Too Far",  was tragically killed
in a road accident as she walked near her home.

smb

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 10:28:49 -0600
From:    mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: Re: CASABLANCA and chess

In the "Evans on Chess" section of the Aug 93 CHESS LIFE & REVIEW is
  a tentative explanation of the unlikely arrangement of Rick's
  chessboard in the one scene of "Casablanca."  (It seems Bogart had
  a fondness for the game himself.)

... Chess being the "game of war," and all ....

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 16:36:43 GMT
From:    Johannes van Vuren <VANVUREN_J@SND02.PCR.CO.UK>
Subject: The origin and hierarchy of ranks

Please enlighten me on the meaning of military ranks. Im not sure I understand
how the different ranks are related. For instance, which is more senior: a
leutenant general, brigadier general or major general? What are the origins
and meaning of these terms and double names? Why are there leutenant colenells
and colenells? Why not leutenant captains as well? What is a "full" general?
Why is a field marshall called such?

Then there are exotic ranks like brigade sergent major and brevet sargent
major. What do these terms mean and how did they come about?

Perhaps one of you experts can post an essay here on the origin and evolution
of military ranks. Would be facinating to read.

Many thanks,
Johannes van Vuren,
Canterbury, England.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 12:22:43 EST
From:    Charles Reace <creace@ISD.CSC.COM>
Subject: Re: Soviet losses at end of the war

> I don't have the numbers in front of me (my copy of Erickson is at home), but
> the common wisdom was that the Soviet Army suffered slightly more than half of
> its losses on the advance from Stalingrad to Berlin. It's worth noting that
> they lost two men for every German soldier killed *while advancing against the
> Germans.* As far as how many of these losses were due to actual fightingand
> how may resulted from NKVD rear guard action, that's a good question.
>
> Cathleen S. Lewis (NASSE050@sivm.si.edu)

It's generally accepted that, all other things being equal, you need at
least 2 to 1 odds to be reasonably sure of success during an attack.
During Barbarossa the Germans used surprise, maneuver, and better command
control so that all other things were not equal.  But by the time the
main Soviet counter-offensives began, things were more or less equal,
though I'd still give the advantage man-for-man to the Germans.  It
therefore does not surprise me that the Soviets may have suffered 2-to-1
in losses during the advance.

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <creace@isd.csc.com>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 12:54:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: USAAF 4-9 JAN 44

                  COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
                                     4 - 9 JAN 44

FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  Beaufighter, Bristol
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-4, Lockheed Lightning
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  F-7, Consolidated Liberator
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  P-70, Douglas
  Ventura, Lockheed
  Zeke, Mitsubishi A6M

TUESDAY, 4 JANUARY 1944

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 174: 2 targets in Germany
are hit; 19 bombers and 2 fighters are lost.
  1. 371 of 439 B-17's and 115 of 130 B-24's are dispatched to the port area
at Kiel; 7 B-17's and 34 B-24's hit targets of opportunity; they claim 4-12-4
Luftwaffe aircraft; 11 B-17's and 6 B-24's are lost; 2 B-17's and 3 B-24's
are damaged beyond repair and 111 B-17's and 16 B-24's are damaged;
casualties are 22 KIA, 53 WIA and 170 MIA. 70 P-38's and 42 Ninth Air Force
P-51's escort; they claim 1-1-4 Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 P-38 and 1 P-51 are
lost and 1 P-38 is damaged beyond repair; casualties are 1 WIA and 2 MIA.
  2. 68 of 75 B-17's hit Munster; 2 B-17's are lost, 1 is damaged beyond
repair and 35 damaged; casualties are 1 WIA and 20 MIA. 430 P-47's escort;
they claim 7-0-2 Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 P-47 is damaged.
  Mission 175: During the evening, 4 B-17's drop 800,000 leaflets on Orleans,
Lorient, Rouen and Tours, France at 2005-2021 hours; no losses. This is the
first CARPETBAGGER operation from Tempsford, England on this night.
  US airplanes begin flying supplies from UK to underground resistance forces
in W Europe, this operation being coded CARPETBAGGER.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): XIX Air Support Command is activated
at Middle Wallop England with Major General Elwood R Quesada in command; XIX
will support Patton's Third Army in Europe.
  258 B-26's bomb NOBALL targets (V-weapons sites) in France. Weather makes
bombing difficult, and results range from unknown to good.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 100+ B-17's are dispatched to
bomb the Dupnica area of Bulgaria; 29 bomb the target area, but heavy cloud
cover causes 77 B-17's to return bombs to base; P-38's escort the B-17's the
total distance to and from targets; P-47's provide escort part way.
  HQ 449th Bombardment Group (Heavy) arrives at Grottaglie, Italy from the US.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Yugoslavia, B-25's bomb the
Brodac town area and marshalling yard, and the town of Travnik. P-40's hit
a bridge and trains and fly patrols over the battleline in Italy.
  Transfers in Italy:
  HQ XII Bomber Command and HQ 57th Bombardment Wing from Bari and Foggia
respectively to Trocchia.
  HQ 3d Photographic Group (Reconnaissance) and 12th Photographic
Reconnaissance Squadron from San Severo to Pomigliano with F-4's and F-5's.
  380th and 428th Bombardment Squadrons (Medium), 310th Bombardment Group
(Medium), from Philippeville, Algeria to Ghisonaccia, Corsica with B-25's.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): 18 B-24's, staging through
Tarawa Atoll, Gilbert Islands, bomb Emidj Island, Marshall Islands.
  HQ 30th Bombardment Group (Heavy) transfers from Nanumea Island, Ellice
Island to Abemama Island, Gilbert Islands.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon Islands,
B-24's bomb Sohano Island, concentrating on the seaplane base and supply
area. B-25's pound gun positions at Tonolai and bomb Chabai, Bougainville
Island. P-39's, Royal New Zealand Air Force (RNZAF) Ventura's, and night
fighters, operating individually or in small flights, hit targets on
Bougainville, including barges at Mutupina Point and along the Jaba River,
and areas around Buka, Buka Island, Bonis, Poporang Island, Papas, and Banin.
40+ Allied fighters attack the Rabaul area on New Britain Island and claim at
least 10 airplanes shot down.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 100+ heavy
and medium bombers bomb the Alexishafen, Madang, and Bogadjim  areas and hit
troops and supplies between Finschhafen and Saidor. On New Britain island,
B-25's attack artillery positions in the Cape Gloucester area.  B-24's and
B-25's hit shipping at Koepang, Timor Island and in nearby waters.
  421st Night Fighter Squadron, V Fighter Command, arrives at Milne Bay, New
Guinea from the US with P-70's; first mission is 29 Feb.

WEDNESDAY, 5 JANUARY 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 3 B-25's, supported by 8 P-38's,
attack the Mu River bridge between Monywa and Ywataung which is being
rebuilt; hits are scored on the E bank near the bridge and several sheds are
set afire; the escorting fighters damage several nearby railway cars, strafe
the nearby town, set a barge afire, blow up 4 tin buildings, and claim a
river steamer sunk.
  20th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron and 24th Combat Mapping Squadron, AAF
India-Burma Sector, arrive at Guskhara, India from the US with P-40's and
F-7's respectively; first missions are 31 Jan and in Mar 44 respectively.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): An Eighth Air Force report
concludes that the US daylight strategic bombing program against Germany will
be threatened unless steps are taken to reduce the enemy's fighter force,
which has increased in strength in the W as a result of step-up in
production, strengthening of firepower, and transfer of a larger percentage
of fighters to the Western Front.
  Mission 176: Four targets are hit costing 24 bombers and 12 fighters.
  1. 119 of 131 B-17's and 96 of 114 B-24's hit the shipyard and industrial
area at Kiel, Germany plus 10 aircraft hit targets of opportunity; they claim
41-6-13 Luftwaffe aircraft; 5 B-17's and 5 B-24's are lost, 3 B-17's and 1
B-24 are damaged beyond repair and 61 B-17's and 15 B-24's are damaged;
casualties are 36 KIA, 5 WIA and 100 MIA. This mission is escorted by 70
P-38's and 41 Ninth Air Force P-51's; they claim 22-1-8 Luftwaffe aircraft;
7 P-38's are lost; casualties are 7 MIA.
  2. 112 of 117 B-17's hit the Bordeaux/Merignac Airfield in France; they
claim 50-10-9 Luftwaffe aircraft; 11 B-17's are lost, 2 damaged beyond repair
and 49 damaged; casualties are 11 KIA, 21 WIA and 110 MIA. This mission is
escorted by 76 P-47's; they claim 2-0-1 Luftwaffe aircraft; 5 P-47's are
lost, 1 is damaged beyond repair and 1 damaged; casualties are 5 MIA.
  3. 78 of 79 B-17's hit the Tours Airfield in France; they claim 2-0-0
Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 B-17 is lost and 10 damaged; casualties are 10 MIA.
This  mission is escorted by 149 P-47's; they claim 3-0-1 Luftwaffe aircraft;
1 P-47 is damaged beyond repair and 1 damaged; no casualties.
  4. 73 of 78 hit targets of opportunity at Neuss, Geilenkirchen, Dusseldorf
and Wassenburg, Germany; they claim 2-5-2 Luftwaffe aircraft; 2 B-17's are
lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 22 damaged; casualties are 2 WIA and 20
MIA.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Transfers:
  154th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron, 68th Tactical Reconnaissance Group
(attached to Fifteenth Air Force), from Nouvion to Oran, Algeria with P-38's.
  717th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 449th Bombardment Group (Heavy), from
US to Grottaglie, Italy with B-24's; first mission is 8 Jan.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, A-36's hit gun positions
N of Mignano and on the S slope of Monte Porchia. Weather cancels other
operations.
  489th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 340th Bombardment Group (Medium),
transfers from Foggia to Pompeii, Italy with B-25's.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): B-25's bomb concentrations
in the Choiseul Bay area, New Georgia Island and Hahela Mission on S Buka
Island, while B-24's attack Tonolai, the Kahili supply area, Fauro Island,
and Poporang building area, Bougainville Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, B-24's and
medium bombers bomb the Alexishafen, Madang, and Bogadjim areas and attack
barges from Finschhafen to Saidor; and P-39's hit barges and gun positions
during a sweep from Sio to Bogadjim.

THURSDAY, 6 JANUARY 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, P-51's and A-36's carry out
ground support missions at Sumprabum and Taihpa Ga and hit a cavalry bivouac
and dumps at Kamaing; 12 P-40's attack a supply dump S of Sahmaw Junction
and strafe Pahok.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 2 B-25's bomb a troop ship on the
Yangtze River, NE of Tungting Lake; the vessel is reported as sunk.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Lieutenant General James H
Doolittle assumes command, replacing Lieutenant General Ira C Eaker who will
go to Italy as Commanding General Mediterranean Allied Air Force (MAAF).
  Mission 177: During the evening, 5 B-17's drop 984,000 leaflets on Amiens,
Lille, Valenciennes, Cambrai and Reims, France without loss.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): HQ 436th Troop Carrier Group and
79th, 80th, 81st and 82d Troop Carrier Squadrons arrive at Bottesford,
England from the US with C-47's.

  US STRATEGIC AIR FORCES IN EUROPE (USSAFE): General Carl Spaatz assumes
command and names Major Generals Frederick L Anderson and Hugh J Knerr as
Deputy Commanding Generals for operations and administration.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Control of Fifteenth Air Force
operations against targets of the Combined Bomber Offensive (CBO) is placed
under USSAFE.
  718th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 449th Bombardment Group (Heavy),
arrives at Grottaglie, Italy from the US with B-24's; first mission is 8 Jan.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-26's bomb Pontedera
hitting the marshalling yard and Piaggio aircraft factory there, the Lucca
marshalling yard, and the railway N of Follonica; P-40 and A-36 fighter-
bombers attack gun positions in the Cervaro-Monte Trocchio area and near
Aquino, the town of Cervaro, the railway at Civitavecchia, trains N and E of
Rome, the Velletri train station, and the town of Fondi.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): 78th Fighter Squadron, 15th
Fighter Group, transfers from Haleiwa Field to Stanley Field, Territory of
Hawaii with P-40's.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): P-38's sweep the Rabaul
area, New Britain Island, claiming 9 Zekes shot down during a running
battle over the Cape Gazelle area. B-25's and Royal New Zealand Air Force
(RNZAF) Ventura's bomb and strafe targets in the Choiseul Bay area, New
Georgia Island, including jetty areas and buildings at Tarekekori, targets
on Morgusaia Island, and gun positions on Kondakanimboko Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, B-24's and
B-25's bomb the Alexishafen and Bogadjim areas; A-20's attack targets along
the road from Bogadjim to Yaula; B-25's attack targets of opportunity on the
Huon Peninsula and others hit the Borgen Bay area; and P-39's strafe barges
at Borgen and Rein Bays.
  389th Bombardment Squadron (Light), 312th Bombardment Group (Light),
transfers from Port Moresby to Gusap, New Guinea with P-40's; first mission
is 14 Jan; they transition to A-20's in Feb.

FRIDAY, 7 JANUARY 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 7 B-25's and 15 P-38's pound the
Lanywa area, hitting the oil plant and storage tanks, causing several fires,
and strafe several AA positions; 19 A-36's and P-51's bomb supply and troop
concentrations at Nanyaseik.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 4 B-25's and 6 P-40's sink 2 large
boats on the Yangtze River S of Hukow and sink a large powerboat, a barge,
and a small ore craft at Shihhweiyao; 11 P-38's claim between 30 and 40
sampans destroyed along the river from Hankow to Chiuchiang; and 2 B-25's on
a sea sweep claim a 300-ft (91 m) passenger vessel sunk S of Hong Kong.
  HQ 341st Bombardment Group (Medium) transfers from the Tenth Air Force to
the Fourteenth Air Force and moves from Kurmitola, India to Kunming, China.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 351 of 382 B-17's and 69 of 120
B-24's hit the I G Faren Industrie plant at Ludwigshafen, Germany; they claim
30-6-17 Luftwaffe aircraft; 5 B-17's and 17 B-24's are lost, 2 B-17's and 2
B-24's are damaged beyond repair and 104 B-17's and 18 B-24's are damaged;
casualties are 14 KIA, 13 WIA and 121 MIA. 71 P-38's, 463 P-47's and 37 Ninth
Air Force P-51's escort; they claim 7-0-3 Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 P-38 and 5
P-47's are lost and 1 P-47 is damaged; casualties are 6 MIA.
  Mission 179: During the evening, 5 B-17's drop 1.08 million leaflets on
Paris, Chartres, Caen and Evreux, France without loss.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 35 B-26's bomb the Cherbourg/
Maupertus Airfield. Bad weather restricts further operations.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Italy, B-17's, with P-38
escort, bomb an aircraft factory at Maribor and a torpedo factory at Fiume;
the P-38's battle a superior number of enemy fighters over the Maribor area;
3 P-38's are lost and several are missing; 4 fighters are claimed destroyed,
with 1 probably downed and 4 damaged, during the fierce half-hour fight.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25's strike Perugia
Airfield; A-20's hit defenses in close support of the US Fifth Army; B-26's
hit the marshalling yards at Foligno and Arezzo and attack a bridge at
Roccasecca; A-36's hit gun positions, trucks, and trains in the Cervaro-
Aquino-Cassino area, bomb the Aquino station, and hit the Velletri railway
yards; P-40's give close support in the Monte Maio, Monte La Chiaia, Monte
Porchia, and Cedro Hill areas as the US Fifth Army drives toward the Rapido
River.
  Air echelon of the 417th Night Fighter Squadron, Twelfth Air Force,
transfers from Tafaraoui to La Senia, Algeria with Beaufighters; ground
echelon is at Ghisonaccia, Corsica.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): Major General Hubert R
Harmon becomes Commanding General. 8 squadrons of Allied fighters support US
Navy (USN) dive bombers in an attack on the Cape Saint George area, New
Ireland Island. B-24's bomb Vunakanau Airfield, New Britain Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, B-24's,
B-25's, P-39's, and P-47's bomb the Alexishafen-Madang area, hit Erima,
Bogadjim, and targets along the Bogadjim Road, attack positions from Weber
Point to Vincke Point, and strafe huts and barges near Sidor. On New Britain
Island, B-24's bomb the Cape Gloucester area and A-20's hit forces near
Arawe. B-24's also hit Lorengau, Manus Island and Boela, Ceram Island.

SATURDAY, 8 JANUARY 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 20 P-51's and A-36's knock out a
bridge N of Hopin, destroy a warehouse and railroad tracks in the area, and
destroy a locomotive and damage numerous railroad cars at Tigyaingza.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 22d Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 341st
Bombardment Group (Medium), transfers from Chakulia, India to Yangkai, China
with B-25's.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 180: During the evening,
5 B-17's drop 2.292 million leaflets on Antwerp and Brussels, Belgium; and
Rennes, Brest and Nantes, France without loss.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 449th and and 450th Bombardment
Groups (Heavy) with B-24's become operational, giving the Fifteenth a total
of 8 heavy bomber groups.
  B-24's bomb the airfield at Mostar, Yugoslavia. B-17's hit the Reggio
Emilia aircraft factory; P-38's and P-47's fly escort.
  HQ 1st Fighter Group and 27th and 94th Fighter Squadrons transfer from
Gioia del Colle to Salsola Airfield, Italy with P-38's.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): B-25's bomb the harbor,
warehouses, and railway at Metkovic, Yugoslavia. In Italy, A-20's hit railway
stations at Frosinone and in the Colleferro-Segni area; B-26's bomb
marshalling yards at Grosseto and Lucca; P-40's support the US Fifth Army in
the mountains E and SE of Cassino, and, with A-36's, hit railway targets S of
Rome at Aquino, Frosinone, Palestrina and Castelforte; other P-40's hit
Avezzano, and A-36's blast trains and vessels in the vicinity of Tarquinia.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): 15 B-24's, staging through
Tarawa Atoll, Gilbert Islands, bomb shipping and shore installations at
several locations on Wotje, Maloelap and Jaluit Atolls, Marshall Islands; and
2 B-25's from Tarawa hit shipping and gun positions on Jaluit.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon Islands,
B-24's bomb Kahili, Bougainville Island; and B-25's hit concentrations on
Siposai and Kondakanimboko Islands.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, B-24's, medium
bombers, and a few fighters, attack the Madang area, bomb Uligan Harbor, and
hit Bogadjim and the Bogadjim Road. On New Britain Island, fighters strafe
the Sag Sag sawmill in the Cape Gloucester area and B-25's and A-20's hit
positions near Arawe. B-24's bomb Kendari and other targets on Celebes
Island.

SUNDAY, 9 JANUARY 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): 21 P-51's and A-36's attack the Loilaw,
Burma area, severely damaging a bridge, hitting an ammunition storage
building, and scoring direct hits on large barracks.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 9 fighters strafe 6 steamboats and
many smaller craft on the Yangtze River at Puchi; 2 B-25's on a sea sweep
bomb a 200-ft (61 m) vessel S of Swatow, reporting the ship destroyed. 8
fighter-bombers hit Sadon, Burma and in French Indochina, 4 bomb the Atson
railroad yards and Lao Kay railroad station.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO): Prime Minister Winston S Churchill
and General Charles A De Gaulle meet at Marrakesh, French Morocco. They
discuss cooperation of a French expeditionary force in invasion of Europe and
the degree of authority of the French inside France after the invasion.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): B-17's hit the docks and
shipping at Pola, Yugoslavia.
  71st Fighter Squadron, 1st Fighter Group, transfers from Gioia del Colle to
Salsola Airfield, Italy with P-38's.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25's attack the
marshalling yard and docks at Ancona; P-40's hit tanks and trucks at Palena
and S of Sulmona, and positions and vehicles near Cervaro; and A-36's hit
positions in the same area.
  414th Night Fighter Squadron, 63d Fighter Wing, based at Elmas, Sardinia
with Beaufighters, sends a detachment to operate from Ghisonaccia, Corsica.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon Islands,
B-25's hit Buka seaplane base on Buka Island and the Kahili supply area on
Bougainville; fighters strafe the Cape Dunganon area and along the Ramusian
River W of Teop. On New Britain Island, 7 squadrons of Allied fighters cover
a USN dive bomber strike on Tobera; 2 squadrons of B-24's pound Vunakanau
Airfield. 6 B-25's bomb Taharai Airfield, New Ireland Island and afterwards
some hit targets of opportunity on the island.
  Transfers from Espiritu Santo, New Hebrides Islands to Munda, New Georgia
Island:
  23d and 72d Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), 5th Bombardment Group (Heavy),
with B-24's.
  371st and 372d Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), 307th Bombardment Group
(Heavy), with B-24's.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, fighters and
bombers attack Alexishafen, Madang, Bogadjim, Uligan Harbor, and the area E
of Saidor; and Cape Beechey is strafed by P-40's.
  Transfers in New Guinea:
  36th Fighter Squadron, 8th Fighter Group, from Nadzab to Finschhafen with
P-47's.
  498th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 345th Bombardment Group (Medium), from
Port Moresby to Dobodura with B-25's.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 13:25:22 -0500
From:    Kevin Kamphaus <usr5066a@TSO.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN: Charging Windmills

Yea, could you take me along? I'll carry your bags!


Kevin Kamphaus
usr5066a@tsol.uc.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 13:40:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Blue Angels and Thunderbirds Schedule

             USAF THUNDERBIRDS AND USN BLUE ANGELS SHOW SCHEDULE
                            Issue 2, 7 Jan 94

REASON FOR REISSUE:
1. Delete 14 May show at NAS LeMoore, California
2. Add 4 Jun show at Myrtle Beach, South Carolina
3. Add 7 Aug show at Eielson AFB, Alaska
4. Change show at Kadena AB, Okinawa from 14 Aug to 15 Aug
5. Change Thailand show from 18 Aug to 17 Aug
6. Change Singapore show from 23 to 19 Aug
7. Change Malaysia show from 20 Aug to 21 Aug
8. Add show at Andersen AFB, Guam on 23 Aug.


I. CANADA
---------

II. UNITED STATES
-----------------

ALASKA
------
Eielson AFB: USAF Thunderbirds, 7 Aug
Elmendorf AFB: USAF Thunderbirds 6 Aug

ARIZONA
-------
Glendale: USAF Thunderbirds, 5-6 Nov
Mesa: USAF Thunderbirds, 19-20 Mar

CALIFORNIA
----------
Castle AFB: USAF Thunderbirds, 9 Oct
NAS Lemoore: USAF Thunderbirds, 15 May
Redding: USAF Thunderbirds, 25-26 Jun
Travis AFB: USAF Thunderbirds, 8 Oct

COLORADO
--------
Air Force Academy, Colorado Springs: USAF Thunderbirds, 1 Jun
Broomfield: USAF Thunderbirds, 30-31 Jul

DELAWARE
--------
Dover AFB: USAF Thunderbirds, 7-8 May

FLORIDA
-------
MacDill AFB: USAF Thunderbirds, 22-27 Mar
Sanford: USAF Thunderbirds, 29-30 Oct
Tyndall AFB: USAF Thunderbirds, 16 Apr

GEORGIA
-------
Robins AFB: USAF Thunderbirds, 22-23 Oct

HAWAII
------
NAS Barbers Point: USAF Thunderbirds, 27 Aug

KENTUCKY
--------
Bowling Green: USAF Thunderbirds, 24-25 Sep

LOUISIANA
---------
Barksdale AFB: USAF Thunderbirds, 17 Apr
Lake Charles: USAF Thunderbirds, 12-13 Nov

MASSACHUSETTS
-------------
NAS South Weymouth: USAF Thunderbirds, 11-12 Jun

MICHIGAN
--------
Battle Creek: USAF Thunderbirds, 4 Jul
K.I. Sawyer AFB: USAF Thunderbirds, 2 Jul

NEVADA
------
Nellis AFB: USAF Thunderbirds, 20 Nov

NEW YORK
--------
Scotia: USAF Thunderbirds, 10-11 Sep

NORTH CAROLINA
--------------
Wilmington: USAF Thunderbirds, 9-10 Apr

OHIO
----
Dayton: USAF Thunderbirds, 23-24 Jul

OKLAHOMA
--------
Muskogee: USAF Thunderbirds, 1-2 Oct

OREGON
------
Portland: USAF Thunderbirds, 16-17 Jul

PENNSYLVANIA
------------
Avoca: USAF Thunderbirds, 28-29 May
Latrobe: USAF Thunderbirds, 3-4 Sep
NAS Willow Grove: USAF Thunderbirds, 18-19 Jun

SOUTH CAROLINA
--------------
McEntire ANGB: USAF Thunderbirds, 1 May
Myrtle Beach: USAF Thunderbirds, 4-5 Jun
Shaw AFB: USAF Thunderbirds, 30 Apr

TEXAS
-----
Goodfellow AFB: USAF Thunderbirds, 22 May
Houston: USAF Thunderbirds, 15-16 Oct
Kelly AFB: USAF Thunderbirds, 21 May
Laughlin AFB: USAF Thunderbirds, 18 Sep
Sheppard AFB: USAF Thunderbirds, 17 Sep

VIRGINIA
--------
NAS Norfolk: USAF Thunderbirds, 23-24 Apr

WYOMING
-------
F.E. Warren AFB: USAF Thunderbirds, 27 Jul

III. ALL OTHER COUNTRIES
------------------------
GUAM
----
Andersen AB: USAF Thunderbirds, 23 Aug

JAPAN
------
Kadena AB (Okinawa): USAF Thunderbirds, 15 Aug
Misawa: USAF Thunderbirds, 10 Aug

KOREA
-----
Osan AB: USAF Thunderbirds, 13 Aug

MALAYSIA
--------
??: USAF Thunderbirds, 21 Aug

SINGAPORE
---------
Singaport: USAF Thunderbirds, 19 Aug

THAILAND
--------
Bangkok: USAF Thunderbirds, 17 Aug

########################3

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 8 Jan 1994 02:03:51 +0700
From:    "Peter E. Beal" <beal@NWG.NECTEC.OR.TH>
Subject: Re: GEN: Charging Windmills

On Fri, 7 Jan 1994, WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR wrote:

> In Dr. Bauer's message of  6 Jan 1994 at 2119 CST, he writes:
>
> > But the story is hazy for me from here on.  Does anybody know the story of
> > General Vlasov and how he was subsequently treated.  I understand that the
> > Soviets considered him a traitor, but I don't know the story.
> >
> > Can anyone help me?

Sorry to disagree with Mr. Huber, especially when I do not have all my
sources to hand but....

Vlasov was a highly decorated Russian general.  His unit (I don't recall
the size) was surrounded in northern Russia (around Demyansk?) in the
late summer/fall of 1941.  Eventually he went over to the Germans but was
not taken seriously until the manpower situation got serious for the Germans.
His "army" was to have four divisions but only two were fully organized
and two were in cadre form by the end of the war.  The only action they
saw was when, in later April/early May, 1945 they turned against the
Germans and threw them out of Prague.   I don't recall what happened to
Vlasov but I think it is safe to assume that he was killed by the Russians.

The other units mentioned were individual battalions of Ukrainians and
other minorities which were attached (generally to static) divisions of
the German Army.  And, as you mentioned, there were SS divisions composed
of various national groups.  There was also an Indian Legion. But that's
another story.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 14:11:32 -0600
From:    mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: Re: USAAF 4-9Jan44/ B-17 vs. B-24 question

Con Crane,

     I notice in the raid on Kiel that although B-17s outnumbered
B-24s more than 3:1, losses were less than 2:1.

     While I realize that some squadrons would be hit hard while
others completely missed,

     Would it be a fair generalization to say that the B-24 was
more efficient in payload/range/etc., while the B-17 was more
flyable/survivable?  (Those thin, tapering wings on the -24
always raised my suspicions.)

Lou Coatney, WIU

     Input from everyone is welcome.  Bob Granvin, are you (still)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 14:18:33 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET>
Subject: General Vlasov and Prague

I just read Peter Beal's message about General Vlasov and Prague which
seems to support my idea that the General (Ukranian and not Red Army,
as I remember) fought with the Czechs in driving the Germans from Prague
prior to the arrival of the Red Army racing from Berlin.

But I do not know what happened to General Vlasov after May 9, 1945.
That is my real question.

Can anybody cite a reference dealing with the liberation of Prague?
Names, units, action, casualties, maybe photos.  etc..

Thanks.


  =========================================================================
  | DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
  |                                  | Computers in Business & Education. |
  | Recently returned from my second | Education:  Curriculum development.|
  |   extended stay in Prague.       |    International Education, TEFL.  |
  |                                  | Central Europe:  Post revolution   |
  | Working on second book about     |    economic, social, political     |
  |   Prague and new Czech Republic. |    problems and opportunities.     |
  | E-Mail:                          | Free lance writing and editing.    |
  |   USA:  BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET    | Stamp collecting.                  |
  =========================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 15:34:44 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <kc5318@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Soviet losses at end of the war

>
>It's generally accepted that, all other things being equal, you need at
>least 2 to 1 odds to be reasonably sure of success during an attack.
>During Barbarossa the Germans used surprise, maneuver, and better command
>control so that all other things were not equal.  But by the time the
>main Soviet counter-offensives began, things were more or less equal,
>though I'd still give the advantage man-for-man to the Germans.  It
>therefore does not surprise me that the Soviets may have suffered 2-to-1
>in losses during the advance.
>
>  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <creace@isd.csc.com>
>_|   _|   _|     |
> |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
> ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057
>

Charles,
     The generally accepted figure is 3-1 for success in the offensive, and
though the Russians had the Germans heavily outnumbered, I don't think the odds
for the whole Eastern Front got that bad until near the end.

                                                LTC Con Crane
                                                USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 14:40:40 CST
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN: Charging Windmills

> Yea, could you take me along? I'll carry your bags!

Although it's an extreme longshot at this point, Operation Market Garden
is also looking for some U.S. based WWII aircraft to participate.  The
discussion has been brought to us whether it would be technically and
financially feasible to bring Miss Mitchell (B-25) to Holland for the
event, along with some other aircraft I'm not at liberty to discuss.

If that were to ever happen, I'm sure we could carry some luggage.  For
an appropriate donation, of course.  :-)

(Your luggage would never get lost ... But it may not survive the impact
when released from 11,000 feet... :-)

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 15:47:13 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <kc5318@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN: Charging Windmills

>I am very interested in the conversation about Prague and Berlin, and how
>the Russians and the United States ended up where they did.
>
>As I remember my history, Roosevelt, Stalin, and Churchill agreed to give
>to Stalin the right to enter PRague first.  In fact, according to one of
>my Czech friends, he told me that General Patton (or possibly a member
>of his unit) entered Prague and offered to come in if he got an invitation.
>But he was not asked.  As a result, hundreds of Czechs were killed as
>they resisted the Germans until General Vlasov entered the city.
>
>But the story is hazy for me from here on.  Does anybody know the story of
>General Vlasov and how he was subsequently treated.  I understand that the
>Soviets considered him a traitor, but I don't know the story.
>
>Can anyone help me?
>
>
>  =========================================================================
>  | DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
>  |
George,
     Look at David Eisenhower's EISNHOWER AT WAR.  It covers the dispute over
Prague pretty well.  Ike actually offered the Russians help from the Third Army
to take Prague, but they refused.  When partisans revolted there in May, they
radioed appeals for Allied aid which Patton received.  He was restrained by
Bradley and Eisenhower, and fumed about it considerably.
                                                       LTC Con Crane
                                                       USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 14:22:45 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET>
Subject: Re: GEN: Charging Windmills

Are you saying that Vlasov went over to the Germans in 1941 and only
turned to fight them in May of 1945 by helping the Czechs liberate Prague?
If so, how did he get to PRague?  Did he also help liberate Slovakia?
Did he come from the east (Ukraine, Olomouc, etc)?  I seem to remember
reading someplace that the Russian army was in Olomouc when Patton
was in Plzen, but it was finally the Red Army racing from BErlin that
actually "liberated" Prague.

Any sources anyone can recomment?

Thanks


  =========================================================================
  | DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
  |                                  | Computers in Business & Education. |
  | Recently returned from my second | Education:  Curriculum development.|
  |   extended stay in Prague.       |    International Education, TEFL.  |
  |                                  | Central Europe:  Post revolution   |
  | Working on second book about     |    economic, social, political     |
  |   Prague and new Czech Republic. |    problems and opportunities.     |
  | E-Mail:                          | Free lance writing and editing.    |
  |   USA:  BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET    | Stamp collecting.                  |
  =========================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 15:00:56 -0600
From:    mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: Vlasov's fate, a source, and an Alaska application

I believe it was the Americans -- us -- who turned Vlasov over to the
  Soviets at the end of the war (to be tried(, tortured,) and hanged
  in the basement of the Lubyanka as a traitor).

Check the book AGAINST STALIN AND HITLER by the (political) SS
  officer attached to Vlasov's outfit.

At an appropriate moment, during our private/confrontational
  breakfast in Juneau Alaska in Spring 1986, I told Gennadi Gerasimov
  that
       While there were many aspects of the Soviet system that I
  respected and even admired, until Alaska DID become the Russian-
  American Soviet Socialists Republic,  I was NO "Vlasovite."  (i.e.,
  traitor to my country, for whatever reason.)

He was suitably startled and reflective at that.

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 16:17:29 CST
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: USAAF 4-9Jan44/ B-17 vs. B-24 question

> Con Crane,
>
>      I notice in the raid on Kiel that although B-17s outnumbered
> B-24s more than 3:1, losses were less than 2:1.
>
>      While I realize that some squadrons would be hit hard while
> others completely missed,
>
>      Would it be a fair generalization to say that the B-24 was
> more efficient in payload/range/etc., while the B-17 was more
> flyable/survivable?  (Those thin, tapering wings on the -24
> always raised my suspicions.)

Basically, I'd agree with this.  (Of course, if you come to the Twin
Cities in August, we'll have both on display side by side... :-)

The B-24 was known to many as the flying coffin.  It could carry a larger
payload farther, but was far less able to sustain damage.  Even though it
came into service much later than the B-17, there were some 25,000 B-24s
built compared to 12,731 B-17s.  Not all of that had to do with the
replacement of an outdated aircraft (since the B-17 lasted for a long,
long time after the war).

Although the argument is still raging which is the better airplane, if
I had to sit through 24 missions, I would choose the B-17.  Although a
bit slower, less comfortable, smaller payload and with a bit lower
maximum ceiling (If I remember correctly), and harder to fly, I'd still
rather be with an airplane that can take a real serious pounding and
still come home.

(The B-17 was designed in such a way that any and every rib, spar and
joint could be completely shot away -- its neighboring components had
the strength to take up the slack.  This literally meant that half the
structural integrity of the aircraft could be lost and still fly.)

All these things led to an excellent survival rate of the B-17 compared
to many other aircraft, the B-24 included.

> Lou Coatney, WIU
>
>      Input from everyone is welcome.  Bob Granvin, are you (still)

No.  I'm quite mobile.  :-)

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 6 Jan 1994 to 7 Jan 1994
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 3 messages totalling 143 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Gen. Vlasov (2)
  2. Correction on Soviet population losses

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 8 Jan 1994 18:20:25 +0700
From:    "Peter E. Beal" <beal@NWG.NECTEC.OR.TH>
Subject: Gen. Vlasov

He was captured in 1941 (I think) and "went over" to the Germans after
some time in a POW camp.  However, the Germans did not commit resources
to his "army" until around the middle or 1944 or latter.  I don't recall
what his army was doing around the Prague area in late April/early May of
1945 and how they got there.

There are at least two books on Vlasov.  One was mentioned here; I read
the other one, the name of which I cannot recall (since I did so about 40
years ago) but I think it was published in Europe although it was in English.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 8 Jan 1994 13:08:23 EST
From:    Chuck McCormick <chuckm@AREC.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Correction on Soviet population losses

Cathleen S. Lewis (NASSE050@sivm.si.edu) writes:

>The study on losses in population growth resulting from World War II on the
>USSR was not done by Murray Feshbach, but was a Soviet study. The estimate was
>that by 1959, the Soviet Union had 50 million fewer people than it would have,
>had normal population growth continued from 1941. This study takes into
>account the slowed population recovery due to the absence of males first the
>first generation after the war. The citation is: V.V. Pokshiishevskii,
>_Geografiia naseleniia sssr: ekonomiko-geograficheskie ocherki_ (Moscow,
>Proveshchenie, 1971).

I think those numbers are pretty accurate.  Here is some data from the 1965
Demographic Yearbook.

World Population and Growth 1930-1960

                                        Percent Change
        1930    1940    1950    1960    1930-40 1940-50 1950-60

World   2,070   2,295   2,517   3,003   10.87%   9.67%  19.31%

Africa  164     191     222     277     16.46%  16.23%  24.77%
America 242     274     329     412     13.22%  20.07%  25.23%
Asia    1,120   1,244   1,381   1,659   11.07%  11.01%  20.13%
Europe  355     380     392     425      7.04%   3.16%   8.42%
Oceania 10      11      13      16      11.00%  14.41%  23.62%
USSR    179     195     180     214      8.94%  -7.69%  18.89%

Predicted USSR  195.0   212.4   255.8   8.9%    8.9%    20.4%

Source: UN Demographic Yearbook, 1965


Using very naive techniques (assuming that the USSR growth rate for 1940-50
would mirror the 1930-40 growth rate, and that the growth rate 1950-60 would be
a simple average of the world's growth rate) one sees that the 1960 USSR
population is at least 40 million lower.  Asia saw nearly double population
growth after the war was over.  The demographics texts that I have seen conclude
that the post-war population growth, especially in developed countries, was due
to a drop in the death rate and corresponding increase in life expectancy.  Much
of this decrease in the death rate is from better control and treatment of
disease.

Chuck McCormick
Pop Center Programmer
chuckm@arec.umd.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 8 Jan 1994 16:20:22 -0600
From:    Jon Stevens <jstevens@DAVID.WHEATON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gen. Vlasov

Before Christmas Break I just happened to be looking up some references
about Vlasov and the Russian Army of Liberation.  Here is what I found:

_The Illusion: Soviet Soldiers in Hitler's Armies_ by Jurgen Thorwald
  from the Bibliography I also noticed these articles (the only ones in
English)
    _Vlasov and Hitler_  Journal of Modern History, MArch 1951
    _General Vlasov's Official Biography_ Russian Review, Oct. 1949
    _General Vlasov's Mystery Army_ The American Mercury, Feb. 1948
_Vlasov and the Russian Independence Movement_ by (?) Andreivich 1987
_Vlasov_(?) by Sven Steenberg (might be more to the title) 1970
_Soviet Opposition to Stalin_ by George Fischer 1952
_The Other Russian Army_ New York Review of Books, Nov 24,1988 p.7

The only one I have read so far is Thorwald's book.  It is quite excellent
and covers most of the details of the Vlasov Army from individual soldiers
to the work of the German officers trying to raise up and adequately supply
Vlasov and his troops.  It also mentions the use of Vlasov's troops in
France, Yugoslavia, and the end of the Vlasov Army after the fighting in
and around Prauge.  Thorwald writes that his book started out as a project
for either the German intelligence service or the American intelligence
service, I can't remember which.  This is a must read.

In Paul Carell's book, _Hitler Moves East_, Vlasov's importance and
capture are briefly mentioned:

 p.401
 (Vlasov) was one of the stars of the Soviet Generals' Corps.  In the late
summer of 1941 Vlasov had courageously defended Kiev for two months...and
had also thrown back the northern wing of the German offensive against
Moscow at Solnechnogorsk and Volokolamsk.  He had been rewarded with
orders, praise, fame, and the position of a deputy commander in chief of
the Army Group Volkov.

 He was the son of peasant born in 1901.  He had been to seminary but
became a communist during the Revolution and joined the Red Army.  During
the 1930's he was in China as Chiang Kai-shek's military advisor and
subsequently escaped the military purges.  When he returned to Russia
there was no limit to his career.  Very soon his fame as an organizer was
proclaimed throughout the Soviet military press.

(in Jan. 1942, he was assigned by Stalin to take command of the Soviet
Second Striking Army to free the 17 divisions surrounded by the Germans
in the Demyansk pocket and Army Group North.)

(by May 1942, the battle had been won by the Germans.)

p.411
 Only 32,000 Russians survived the battle.  Several thousands were lying
in the swamps ...it was an appalling field of slaughter...It was hell itself.

(Vlasov was turned in to the Germans on July 11, by a Russian village
leader after an intense search by the Germans.)

The  mere fact that one of the best and politically most reliable Soviet
generals emerged from it as an opponent of Stalin and Bolshevism merely
confirms the horror of the hell through which Vlasov's Second Striking
Army had passed.  From that date onward Vlasov remained a political factor
of considerable importance in the background of the duel between Hitler
and Stalin.

I hope this posting was not too long.  When Christmas Break is over this
Monday, I am planning on delveing into this subject.  I am a graduate
student studying Russian History.  Part of my interest is opposition to
Stalin.  Has this helped anyone?

Jon Stevens

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 7 Jan 1994 to 8 Jan 1994
***********************************************

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There are 6 messages totalling 280 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Gen. Vlasov (2)
  2. GEN: REVIEW OF LETTERS HOME IN FOREIGN SERVICE JOURNAL
  3. USAAF 4-9Jan44/ B-17 vs. B-24 question
  4. TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET
  5. Question about naval warfare

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 9 Jan 1994 11:10:59 +0100
From:    Richard Cummings <CUMMINGSR@ADMINA.RFERL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Gen. Vlasov

To Jon Stevens:  I found your posting very interesting and not long
at all.  I would like to read more after your Break is over, either
on the List, or direct.  I will be going nomail next weekend until
about 7 February when I return to Munich after a visit to the U.S.
Regards.  Richard.

--==oo00oo==--
cummingsr@rferl.org
RFE/RL Inc
Munich,Germany

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 9 Jan 1994 10:09:41 +0100
From:    John Ausland <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: GEN: REVIEW OF LETTERS HOME IN FOREIGN SERVICE JOURNAL

Review of LETTERS HOME: A WAR MEMOIR by John C.
Ausland, which appeared in the December 1993 FOREIGN
SERVICE JOURNAL.  It was written by Ward Thompson, a retired
American Foreign Service officer and Vietnam veteran.

In this era of Iraq and Bosnia, some might recall with nostalgia
the heyday of US military policy in the brief year from D-Day
to VE-Day.  John Ausland was with an Army artillery unit as
it landed on Utah Beach and fought its way to the Rhine.  His
dual perspective-in his letters as a young officer and his
commentary on them nearly 50 years later-giving us a timeless
and dispassionate personal view of a not-so-lovely war.

Ausland's letters convey the flavor of life in a unit close to the
front, through serious anecdotes on interpersonal relations and
battle logistics and lighter accounts of leaves spent in Paris and
Luxembourg.  They show the evolution of a callow American in
uniform-from naive bravado, to confusion, to frank reflection-
as the writer prepares in England for D-Day, experiences the
landing, witnesses American military blunders, and encounters
liberated French and defeated Germans.

Although they give us occasional glimpses of the war as we
know it from history books, the letters focus all too rarely on
either the big picture or the intimacy of battle.  They relate the
typical view of a soldier; thought the observations he sent home
were increasingly perceptive.  Ausland was naturally no more
able than other soldiers to influence events, remaining but an
unusually erudite cog in the machine.

Ausland as editor, while sticking to the script, adds just enough
context to the letters to make clear that the American war
machine, although magnificent, was less than well-oiled.  He
describes misguided tactics, needless loss of life on some
occasions, undue caution to avoid casualties on others,
exaggerated award citations, and flawed teamwork.
Commenting on a letter about a meeting with Omar Bradley, for
example, Ausland recalls the young, no-career officers laughing
at the general's description of the upcoming landing as historic,
noting Bradley's bemusement that they did not share the
professional soldier's enthusiasm for war.

There are other parallels to later wars: the American public's
lack of interest in the front, the bias of journalists (Ausland
crossed paths with both Hemingway and Ernie Pyle), the Army's
clumsy management of relations with Germany's civil populace,
even the brutal treatment of civilians by US soldiers.

These flaws are minor in the World War II scheme of things,
and it is never Ausland's intention to argue with success.  Five
decades have not shaken Ausland's faith in the letters' implicit
conclusion that military means, for all their ugliness and
inefficiency, may sometimes be the viable option.  END

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 9 Jan 1994 17:40:46 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <kc5318@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: USAAF 4-9Jan44/ B-17 vs. B-24 question

Lou,
     The B-24 vs. B-17 debate has always been a hot one among airmen. Basically
the B-24 was more versatile, used as a tanker and transport as well as a
bomber.  Coming five years after the B-17, the B-24 had initial advantages in
bomb load and range.  That made it the preferred heavy bomber for George Kenney
in the Pacific.  It also was the key aircraft to close the "bomber gap" in the
Atlantic that was exploited by German U-Boats.  However, in Europe, combat
experience showed that the B-24 lacked adequate armor and armament to fight the
Luftwaffe in daylight raids.  Attempts to remedy these and other shortcomings
added to the weight of the plane and amde it a less stable bombing platform.
Modifications to the B-17s eventually increased their range as well, and by
January 1945 Jimmy Doolittle had a clear preference for the B-17 in his Eighth
Air Force.  I think the modifications to the B-24 tended to reduce its ceiling
as well, since in most of the operations I've looked at the B-24s always tended
to get "low squadron" in bomb group formations.  That position would be more
vulnerable to flak, thus also increasing losses. (Excuse my misspelling of
"made" in line 9, I can't go back and fix it.)
                                                  LTC Con Crane
                                                  USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 9 Jan 1994 20:31:58 EST
From:    Carl Wernke <TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET>
Subject: TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET

 Subject: EDU:RE: CARL-MOTIVES ? THE PEARL HARBOR PAPERS(3 OF 4) BUSHIDO SPIRIT
 X-To: WWII-L@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu
 To: MULTIPLE RECIPIENTS OF LIST WWII-L (WWII-L@UBVM.BITNET)

 Lou, et al,

 One of the primary weapons systems to be used was the Nakajima B5N2 (Kate)
 torpedo bomber, of which there were 144 assigned to the six fleet carriers
 in the fall 1941, and on which were mounted the new weapon designated the
 Type 91, Modification 2, Japan's latest in a series of upgraded torpedoes.
 This 1760-pound torpedo had new features which included a warhead 121 pounds
 larger than its predecessor (for a total of 452 pounds) and separate
 anti-roll stabilizersmounted directly on the aft body of the torpedo. The
 anti-roll stabilizers were an importantaddition because these appendages
 increased the chances of the torpedo running true to drop direction. In
 addition, the shallow-water drop altitude doubled, from 33 feet for the older
 torpedoes to 66 for the new one, with drop speeds at or below 160 knots.

 The Japanese considered their torpedoes to be highly reliable. They were
 superbly constructed and maintained. The torpedoes had to be specially tested
 and prepared for use at Pearl Harbor. Among other things, wooden extention
 fins were attached to the metalic horizontal and vertical tail fins of the
 torpedo.

 At this time in Tokyo, at a liaison meeting on 1 November 1941, Finance
 Minister Kaya repeatedly tried to get ADM Nagano,IJN chief of staff to say
 whether he thought the U.S.fleet would sortie against Japan in three years---
 if peace could be maintained that long--- and wheather the IJN would prevail
 if the Americans did come. The Military Secretary at that meeting wrote his
 notes: "[Kaya] could not very well ask the Supreme Command whether we would
 lose." Yet the evasive responses that the Finance Minister elicited do not
 mean that the military organization plunged heedlessly into hostilities in
 1941. The balance-of-strength equasion was very much on the minds of the army
 and navy planners. "We would not have gone to war," said an Army General Staff
 Operations staff officer, "if we had been convinced beforehand that we were
 going to lose." The highest level secret discussions of the summer and fall
 of 1941 are replete with references to psychological as well as tangible
 concerns. On 12 July, Foreign Minister Matsuoka asserted that the United
 States was regarding Japan as "Either her protectorate or her dependency; it
 is characteristic of Americans to be high-handed toward the weak . . . I
 think there is no hope." That time was working against Japan --- another
 repeated theme --- implies that there were consequences of failure. On
 24 July ADM Nagano, the IJN chief of staff, presented the navy's outlook on
 on the prospects for a war against the United States:
           Accordingly, as time goes by, the Empire will be put at a
           disadvantage. If we could settle things without war, there
           would be nothing better. But if we conclude that conflict cannot
           ultimately be avoided then I would like you to understand that as
           time goes by we will be in a disadvantageous position [This was
           also the belief of ADM Yamamoto].

 Home Minister Hiranuma had already given his opinion, on 12 July, that
 "If we let things go on this awy, we will be fighting on two fronts. Our
 resources will be exhausted, and we will probably be unable to continue a
 great war." The AGS Operations staff officer agreed: "Probably there would
 have been no war if the United States had not inflicted embargoes on Japan"--
 the freezing of funds, restrictions on the export of petroleum, and a cut-off
 of shipments of iron and steel scrap. "To put matters in the strongest terms:
 We went to war because our material stocks were being used up. Japan was
 compelled to resort to arms." The Deputy Chief of the Army General Staff wrote
 privately on 1 November, "One reaches the unavoidable conclusion that we
 must go to war."

 Duding the seventeen-hour marathon Liaison Conference of 1 November, and also
 the Imperial Conference of 5 November, War Minister Hideki Tojo observed that,
 though the early stages of hostilities posed no problem for Japan, by 1943
 there would be no petroleum for military use, and ships would stop moving.
 There was "No end of difficulties," but Tojo could think of no other method,
 under the circumstances. "I fear that we would become a third-class nation
 after two or three years if we merely sat tight." When the decision for war
 was finalized at the Imperial Conference of 1 December, Tojo asserted that:

                 The United States had not only belittled the dignity of our
                 Empire and made it impossible for us to harvest fruits of
                 the China Incident, but also threatened the very existence
                 of our Empire. In view of the enormous and increasing
                 economic and military pressure being applied to Japan by
                 the United States, Britain, the Netherlands, and China, war
                 was the only answer in order to resolve the present crisis
                 and assure survival.

 Japan was quite prepared for a long war concluded Tojo.

 I have endeavored to answer the who, what, where, when, and why questions
 presented by Lou, Bill,Dan,et al .

 Primary source material for this paper was obtained from the following:
 PAPERS RELATING TO THE FOREIGN RELATIONS OF THE UNITED STATES--Japan:1931-1941
 VOL II,THE PEARL HARBOR PAPERS, THE EFFECTIVENESS OF JAPANESE MILITARY
 ESTABLISHMENT IN THE WORLD WAR, and JAPAN'S DECISION FOR WAR:RECORDS OF THE
 1941 POLICY CONFERENCES.------If this post reaches the list (five others have
 not), I welcome any and all comments and questions. This paper  should offer
 an interesting thread. Fire your "main battery salvoes"-- I have endured
 many of those both at sea and on the beach.

 CARL WERNKE                808 Atley Lane                Tidewater Community
 TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET    Virginia Beach,VA 23452-3904    College
                            Phone: (804) 486-4980          Portsmouth, VA
                                                                 23703

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 10 Jan 1994 02:06:22 GMT
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <gummihe@ISMENNT.IS>
Subject: Question about naval warfare

Hi, sir I am sorry to bother you but I just got you letter about the IJN
torpedoes on my server and since I am in need of very similar data I
thought that I could perhaps contact you. I am planning on writing semi-
fiction with historical foundation. I need almost all data available on
the German Kriegsmarine (U-boats especially) that I can get my hands on.
Among the data I need is on German torpedoes (especially if any were
designed to work with the XXI boat. I have very limited change to visit
any real archives here in Iceland :)

Can you imagine where I could get the following:

        A complete list of all u-boat commanders in the WWII
        A complete list of all U-boat operations (dates of sailing etc)


I have the Groener book "German warships... vol 2" but it has many typos
and I dont think that all in it is totally reliable. Also I could
contact Mr. Showell (u-boat author) but I dont think he will reply :)

Thank you for you time sir!

Gudmundur Helgason (gummihe@rvik.ismennt.is)

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 9 Jan 1994 20:30:52 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Gen. Vlasov

To Jon and Richard:

Apparently there is some interest in General Vlasov.  I have been sending
messages to individuals, but in view of the general interest, I will
begin posting again to the list, and request that others do so also.

I confess to knowing very little, but to be very interested...

I still do not understand, if Vlasov's unit joined the German army why
he fought againsdt the Germans and assisted in the liberation of Prague
before the Red Army arrived.

My questions:

1.  Where was Vlasov before he entered Prague?  Campaigns? Opponents? etc.
2.  What was his role in the liberation of Prague?
3.  Where was the Red Army when Vlasov entered Prague?  When did they arrive?
4.  What happened to Vlasov after Prague?

That's enough for now...

Thanks...


  =========================================================================
  | DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
  |                                  | Computers in Business & Education. |
  | Recently returned from my second | Education:  Curriculum development.|
  |   extended stay in Prague.       |    International Education, TEFL.  |
  |                                  | Central Europe:  Post revolution   |
  | Working on second book about     |    economic, social, political     |
  |   Prague and new Czech Republic. |    problems and opportunities.     |
  | E-Mail:                          | Free lance writing and editing.    |
  |   USA:  BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET    | Stamp collecting.                  |
  =========================================================================

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 8 Jan 1994 to 9 Jan 1994
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 29 messages totalling 1108 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Gen. Vlasov (2)
  2. USAAF 10 JAN 44
  3. USAAF 4-9Jan44/ B-17 vs. B-24 question (6)
  4. B-17 vs B-24 (2)
  5. GEN: Charging Windmills (4)
  6. RUMOURED 1st Div. Conference 28-29 May 94 in Wheaton ... NOT!
  7. Coatney's academic launching. (?)  Please disseminate.
  8. David Irving
  9. Air: selected German targets (2)
 10. B-24 ditching trivia
 11. Code Breaking
 12. GEN: Doolittle Memorial Flight in April (3)
 13. Czechs and WWII
 14. Kate Ter Horst
 15. Carrying Bags
 16. TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 10 Jan 1994 05:14:27 GMT
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <gummihe@ISMENNT.IS>
Subject: Re: Gen. Vlasov

Dear Mr. Bauer

        I just got your e-mail on Gen Vlassov and I do have some idea on
how to answer your 4. and last question. Vlassov has fascinated me in
the same way as the 4. Waffen SS unit 'Viking' has (they were volunteers
from Danmark, Norway, Belgium and Holland who joined the Waffen SS to
fight the Russian on the Eastern front). Vlassov was apparentlyy
captured near Prag by the U.S. forces and after short imprisonment he
was murdered (i.e. sent by air-mail to the Russian who of course
executed him for treason). This act of the US is disgusting (the did the
same thing to the few survivors of the Waffen SS unit 'Totankopf' who
were also killed by the Russians (best not to magine what happened to
them before their death). So, Vlassov was sent back to the Russians.

I hope this help, thank you and a greeting from Iceland!

Gudmundur Helgason

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 10 Jan 1994 07:13:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: USAAF 10 JAN 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
MONDAY, 10 JANUARY 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  Beaufighter, Bristol
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 12 A-36's and P-51's hit a bivouac
area at Nanyaseik; and 15 P-40's attack a bridge at Namti, damaging railroad
tracks and the S approach to the bridge. During the night of 9/10 Jan, 7
B-24's lay mines in the Menam River estuary near Bangkok, Thailand and in the
Rangoon River estuary. B-24's during the day bomb marshalling yard and
airfield in the Bangkok area and hit the main jetty at Akyab, Burma. 9 B-25's
mine the Mokpalin, Burma ferry crossing over the Sittang River.
  315th Troop Carrier Squadron, Tenth Air Force, transfers from Dinjan to
Sylhet, India with C-47's.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 8 P-51's bomb the approach to the
Kienchang bridge and attack a troop train N of Teian damaging the train and
killing an estimated 100 soldiers; 3 B-25's and 8 P-40's sweep the area from
Anking to Chiuchiang, sinking a large motor launch, 2 100-ft (30.5 m) barges,
and a tug on the Yangtze River, and attacking a bridge at Teian and tracks S
of Chiuchiang; 2 B-25's and 4 P-40's attack shipping on the Yangtze River
near Wusueh, sinking a launch and leaving 3 tankers burning.
  491st Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 341st Bombardment Group (Medium),
transfers from Chakulia, India to Yangkai, China with B-25's.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 181: During the evening, 5
B-17's drop 4.8 million leaflets on Orleans, Chateauroux, Rouen, Le Mans and
Tours, France without loss.
  HQ 93d Combat Bombardment Wing (Heavy) transfers from Horsham St Faith to
Elveden Hall, England.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): HQ 366th Fighter Group and 390th
Fighter Squadron arrives at Membury, England from the US with P-47's; first
mission is 14 Mar.
  71st, 72d, 73d and 74th Troop Carrier Squadrons, 434th Troop Carrier Group,
transfer from Welford Park to Fulbeck, England with C-47's.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): B-17's bomb Sofia, Bulgaria
causing considerable damage in the marshalling yards. B-24's hit the
marshalling yard at Skoplje, Yugoslavia. P-38's and P-47's provide escort.
Around 60 Luftwaffe fighters attack the Sofia force and a fierce air battle
ensues; 2 B-17's are lost; they claim 28 aircraft shot down.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25's hit San Benedetto
de Marsi; P-40's, with Royal Air Force (RAF), South African Air Force (SAAF),
and Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) airplanes, hit communications, gun
positions, trucks, and tanks at numerous points in and NW of the battle area;
other P-40's give close support to ground forces in the Chieti area; and
A-36's hit trucks, tanks, trains, and other targets of opportunity N of Rome.
  Transfers:
  HQ 47th Bombardment Group (Light) from Vincenzo Airfield to Vesuvius
Airfield, Italy.
  Air echelon of the 417th Night Fighter Squadron, Twelfth Air Force
(attached to RAF 337 Wing) from Tafaraoui to La Senia, Algeria with
Beaufighters; ground echelon is at Ghisonaccia, Corsica.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): In the Marshall Islands, 4
P-39's from Makin Island, Gilbert Islands strafe Mille Atoll; 1 of the
P-39's drops 2 500-lb (227 kg) bombs on the fuel storage area; during the
night of 10/11 Jan, 16 B-24's, staging through Tarawa Atoll, Gilbert Islands
from the Ellice Islands, bomb Maloelap Atoll; 4 others, staging through Baker
Island from Canton Island, Phoenix Islands, hit Mille Atoll.
  392d Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 30th Bombardment Group (Heavy),
transfers from Canton Island to Abemama Island, Gilbert Islands with B-24's.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): Major General Hubert R
Harmon, Commanding General, begins a heavy bomber campaign of night strikes.
5th Bombardment Group (Heavy) opens the night raids sending 20 B-24's on a
strike against Lakunai Airfield, New Britain Island after a morning raid by
10 B-24's against nearby Vunakanau airfield. 5 B-24's hit the Kahili supply
area, Bougainville Island while 4 hit the Chinatown area of Buka Island. AAF
and US Navy (USN) fighters cover a USN dive bomber strike against Cape Saint
George, New Ireland Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 100+ heavy,
medium, and light bombers, and fighters attack the Madang, Alexishafen, and
Bogadjim areas and the coastline from Madang to Sio. P-39's strafe scattered
villages and barges on New Britain Island. B-25's bomb Koepang, Timor Island.
  Transfers to Nadzab New Guinea:
  33d Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 22d Bombardment Group (Medium), from
Dobodura with B-25's; squadron will be redesignated 33d Bombardment Squadron
(Heavy) on 3 Feb and transition to B-24's.
  69th Troop Carrier Squadron, 433d Troop Carrier Group, from Port Moresby
with C-47's.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 10 Jan 1994 07:38:46 EST
From:    "William B. Thacker" <wbt@CBEMF.ATT.COM>
Subject: Re: USAAF 4-9Jan44/ B-17 vs. B-24 question

LTC Crane writes:

>     The B-24 vs. B-17 debate has always been a hot one among airmen.

One author I read put it this way; the B-24 was a better "offensive"
bomber, since it carried more bombs and had a greater range; but the B-17
was a better "defensive" plane, with more armor and ability to absorb
punishment.  For instance, it was three times more likely to survive an
attempt to ditch than a B-24.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
(614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              wbt@cbemf.att.com
                      Humpty Dumpty was pushed!

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 10 Jan 1994 08:08:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: B-17 vs B-24

>     I notice in the raid on Kiel that although B-17s outnumbered
>B-24s more than 3:1, losses were less than 2:1.
>
>     While I realize that some squadrons would be hit hard while
>others completely missed,
>
>     Would it be a fair generalization to say that the B-24 was
>more efficient in payload/range/etc., while the B-17 was more
>flyable/survivable?  (Those thin, tapering wings on the -24
>always raised my suspicions.)
>
>Lou Coatney, WIU
>
>     Input from everyone is welcome.  Bob Granvin, are you (still)

On the particular mission you mention, I believe that the B-24's
happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

As far as the overall question of B-17 vs B-24, most people agree
that the B-24 could not take a hit in the wings and survive.  The
Davis wing gave the aircraft the range and ability to carry a great
load but could not sustain much damage.


-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 10 Jan 1994 08:35:00 EST
From:    "W. C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <ERCOUPE@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: USAAF 4-9Jan44/ B-17 vs. B-24 question

Ernie Gann noted in "Fate is the Hunter" that the C-87 (B-24 transport
derivitave) "couldn't carry enough ice to chill a highball" owing to
the supercritical Davis wing.  Which brings the question of weather-
related losses.  I have yet to see any information on the totals of
aircraft lost to weather (either directly or indirectly) as opposed
to direct enemy fire.  Any thoughts?

Bill
N93774@vms.cis.pitt.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 10 Jan 1994 09:01:34 EST
From:    Charles Reace <creace@ISD.CSC.COM>
Subject: Re: USAAF 4-9Jan44/ B-17 vs. B-24 question

This converstation on the B24 vs. B17 survivability raises another
question in my mind.  It seems that with few -- if any -- exceptions all
the US fighters of WWII (both Army and Navy) were built to withstand
more damage than their opposition (and the other Allies, for that
matter [with the possible exception of the Soviets?]).

My question is:  was this the result of design requirements of the US
services, a general design philosophy of the manufacturers, or just a
result of the fact that the US had more raw materials and manufacturing
resources to spend on the *luxury* (sarcasm/irony) of protecting the
air crews.

Parenthetically yours,

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <creace@isd.csc.com>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 10 Jan 1994 09:27:29 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <kc5318@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: USAAF 4-9Jan44/ B-17 vs. B-24 question

>Ernie Gann noted in "Fate is the Hunter" that the C-87 (B-24 transport
>derivitave) "couldn't carry enough ice to chill a highball" owing to
>the supercritical Davis wing.  Which brings the question of weather-
>related losses.  I have yet to see any information on the totals of
>aircraft lost to weather (either directly or indirectly) as opposed
>to direct enemy fire.  Any thoughts?
>
>Bill
>N93774@vms.cis.pitt.edu
>

Bill,
     In Adolf Galland's superb THE FIRST AND THE LAST, he notes that German
fighters did not have instruments for blind flying or cockpit de-icers,
and pilots were not trained for bad weather conditions.  When they had to go up
and engage Allied bombers attacking through overcast in the winter, Luftwaffe
losses were "appalling."  He gives no numbers, though.
                                                  LTC Con Crane
                                                  USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 10 Jan 1994 08:39:41 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: GEN: Charging Windmills

In your message of  7 Jan 1994 at 1158 CST, you write:
> Re Arnhem etc, nothing to do with the tactical debate but it just reminded
> me that 2nd half of 1993, the lady known as The Angel of Arnhem, can't remember
> her name, but she tended many wounded/dying soldiers,
> and is depicted in "A Bridge Too Far",  was tragically killed
> in a road accident as she walked near her home.
>
> smb
>

Kate ter Horst???  Really, what a drag.  She coached the actress
(Liv Ullman) that portrayed her in the movie (as did many of the
principal characters).  I had not heard of her death.

Bill Huber

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 10 Jan 1994 15:43:52 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVSDS.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: B-17 vs B-24

> >     While I realize that some squadrons would be hit hard while
> >others completely missed,
> >
> >     Would it be a fair generalization to say that the B-24 was
> >more efficient in payload/range/etc., while the B-17 was more
> >flyable/survivable?  (Those thin, tapering wings on the -24
> >always raised my suspicions.)

It seems that while the B-24 was a little easier to fly at low and medium
altitudes, it was less stable and more difficult to fly at the higher
altitudes (above 20.000ft) at which most European bombardment missions
were flown.  The bombers depended on flying in close formations, "combat
boxes" for protective gunfire; the B-24 was less suitable for this. Thus
they were more vulnerable to fighter attack.  The service ceiling of the
B-24 was also lower.  (The B-17G had a higher service ceiling than any
other WWII four-engined bomber, with exception of the B-29.) This meant
that it would fly in the lower, more vulnerable parts of the formation.

The larger stability of the B-17 also meant that it was easier to bring
home with damaged control surfaces.  The B-17 may have been more rugged
than the B-24, but it tended to catch fire unpleasantly easy.  The B-24
had a higher cruise speed than the B-17; that made it very undesirable to
fly both aircraft on one attack, so the 8th AAF had to select one of both.

The B-24 was a later design and aerodynamically more efficient, but it
performance was only slightly better.  It had a twice as large bomb bay,
that allowed it to carry more bombs (but not that much to British
standards) and extra fuel tanks.  The B-24 was far more suitable for the
maritime patrol mission.  The longer range was also beneficial in the
Pacific; most missions there were flown at medium altitudes, were the B-24
was easier to handle. From some point in 1943, all B-17s were deliverd to
European units.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 10 Jan 1994 09:30:33 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: Gen. Vlasov

In Richard's message of  9 Jan 1994 at 0414 CST, he writes:

> To Jon Stevens:  I found your posting very interesting and not long
> at all.  I would like to read more after your Break is over, either
> on the List, or direct.

> Regards.  Richard.
>
> --==oo00oo==--
> cummingsr@rferl.org
> RFE/RL Inc
> Munich,Germany
>

Ditto that!  Good work.  All I had that mentioned Vlasov (correct
spelling - don't know where I got that 2nd "s") was David Irvings
book(s), _Hitler's War_.  In there all it says is that Vlasov was
captured and volunteered to lead an Army against Stalin.

Hitler didn't think much of Vlasov according to Irving.  He quotes
Hitler as having said something to effect: "What a swine that Vlasov
must be.  Stalin made him a General.  Everything he is he owes to
Stalin and now he bites the hand that fed him."

Irving goes on to say that Vlasov was seen as a more valuable
political tool than as a general because of the defection.

I was also wrong about the "Don Cossacks Badge".  It was established
for members of the 5th Don Cossacks, a unit that defected to the
Germans under the unit's commanding officer (a colonel).  There were
others that did the same thing.

Thanks Jon, cheers,    Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.delly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 10 Jan 1994 09:51:33 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: GEN: Charging Windmills

In Peter's message of  7 Jan 1994 at 1526 CST, he wrote:

> Sorry to disagree with Mr. Huber, especially when I do not have all my
> sources to hand but....

God help us if I am taken as the last word on any given subject!  The
only reference I have with me is a German/English dictionary and my
memory is not what you would call infallible.  That alzheimers is a
bummer :-/

Thanks for the updates, Peter and Jon.

Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 10 Jan 1994 16:51:44 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVSDS.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: USAAF 4-9Jan44/ B-17 vs. B-24 question

On Mon, 10 Jan 1994, Charles Reace wrote:
>
> My question is:  was this the result of design requirements of the US
> services, a general design philosophy of the manufacturers, or just a
> result of the fact that the US had more raw materials and manufacturing
> resources to spend on the *luxury* (sarcasm/irony) of protecting the
> air crews.

It had several reasons. The most important one is that many US aircraft
were designed with European combat experience in mind; the US could afford
to put new types in production because it was not yet at war -- for
Germany or Britain the delays involved in bringing major redesigns or new
types to the production lines were often unacceptable. Armour plating,
self-sealing fuel tanks, and other inventions could be incorporated in US
designs. The tactical experience was important too; Japanese fighter
designs were optimized for maneuvrability, but in Europe it was quickly
learnt that many things are more important than dogfighting ability.

Another important factor is the US use of large radial engines. These were
more powerful than liquid-cooled contemporaries and far better resisitant
to combat damage, but consumed more fuel and were bulkier. Thus it was
natural too build a big fighter (F6F, P-47) around them, with room for
ample fuel, armour and armament. Pre-war fighter fighter designs often
were the smallest, lightest airframe that could be built around a certain
engine; for the P&W R-2800, that is a quite sizeable airframe.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 10 Jan 1994 09:52:32 -0600
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: USAAF 4-9Jan44/ B-17 vs. B-24 question

In message World War II Discussion List writes:
> This converstation on the B24 vs. B17 survivability raises another
> question in my mind.  It seems that with few -- if any -- exceptions all
> the US fighters of WWII (both Army and Navy) were built to withstand
> more damage than their opposition (and the other Allies, for that
> matter [with the possible exception of the Soviets?]).
>
> My question is:  was this the result of design requirements of the US
> services, a general design philosophy of the manufacturers, or just a
> result of the fact that the US had more raw materials and manufacturing
> resources to spend on the *luxury* (sarcasm/irony) of protecting the
> air crews.

Oof.  Without trying to sound melodramatic or starting to stereotype, the
U.S. (Allied in general) philosophy was very often centered around the
economics of protecting your investment.  Airplanes can be replaced very
quickly (in reality they could -- it may have never worked that way in the
field, of course... :-).  Pilots take a long time to train and be ready and
you don't want to be left with nothing but inexperienced pilots.

The flipside of the coin is weight.  The Japanese didn't employ much armor or
even self-sealing tanks.  This made the aircraft lighter, faster and more
nimble.  The arguments here are just as valid... if you give the pilot an
EDGE, they have a better chance of surviving.

So much of the philosophy boils down to:

1) Do you try and protect the pilot by increasing protection at the cost of
   speed, payload and/or range or
2) Do you try and protect the pilot by increasing his odds of surviving an
   engagement through better performance?

In the end, it more or less boils down to your mission and resources...  You
may not even know which theory is the better one until the war is over.

For example, in Europe, if many sacrifices in aircraft design and/or pilot and
crew protection were made, could fighters have escorted the bombers earlier,
or would the bombers have been more effective with a larger payload?  But if
so, what would the cost be?  Would you actually lose more aircrew through the
increased ability to fly but decreased ability to absorb damage?

Again it boils down to perspective.  I have no doubts the B-17 crews would have
given almost anything to have fighter escort a year earlier, but I'm sure the
fighter pilots were happy to wait for aircraft that gave them a better chance
to stay in the air, fight and then make it home...



--
Robert J. Granvin                                             rjg@stat.umn.edu
University of Minnesota, School of Statistics

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 10 Jan 1994 16:04:00 GMT
From:    Stephen Baldwin <smb@NETMGRS.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: GEN: Charging Windmills

>       In your message of  7 Jan 1994 at 1158 CST, you write:
>       > Re Arnhem etc, nothing to do with the tactical debate but it just reminded
>       > me that 2nd half of 1993, the lady known as The Angel of Arnhem, can't remembe
>       r
>       > her name, but she tended many wounded/dying soldiers,
>       > and is depicted in "A Bridge Too Far",  was tragically killed
>       > in a road accident as she walked near her home.
>       >
>       > smb
>       >
>
>       Kate ter Horst???  Really, what a drag.  She coached the actress
>       (Liv Ullman) that portrayed her in the movie (as did many of the
>       principal characters).  I had not heard of her death.
>
>       Bill Huber
Bill,
I've only been "spectating" on this debate and have deleted previous
entries so apologies if you've said all this before, but what is
your interest in this subject? Are you a veteran?

steve

**********************************************************************
Colemanball

"I call on Fred Jarvis to ask his members to stand ready to sit down.
That would be a giant step forward" / caller on phone-in radio program

**********************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 8 Jan 1994 21:23:35 -0600
From:    mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: RUMOURED 1st Div. Conference 28-29 May 94 in Wheaton ... NOT!

I think I forwarded (from seeing it on the new UK mil hist net) the
  announcement about this.

Unfortunately, the folks at the 1st Div Museum at Cantigny Woods in
  Wheaton (Illinois) know nothing about this (!!), except that a
  similar conference was held last year.

Hmmmmmm.  The rust buckets across the Atlantic must be slow indeed!

So, please disregard that annoucement (while I investigate).

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 8 Jan 1994 21:15:39 -0600
From:    mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: Coatney's academic launching. (?)  Please disseminate.

At the risk of appearing immodest -- or at least incorrigible -- I
  am attaching my resume.  I'd like to try teaching history -- maybe
  in a community/junior college at the outset -- preferably at an
  institution providing Bitnet/Internet access.

I do realize how scarce such opportunities are, but please stop
  guffawing long enough to consider how deadly quiet/bland my
  favorite nets may become, were they to have NO COATNEY.  (Or DO I
  want you considering that?  (-:  )

ANY assistance (including advice on improving the resume) will be
  appreciated.  Here goes:

                               RESUME
Louis R. COATNEY                                   626 Western Ave.
coatneyl@ccmail.wiu.bgu.edu                        Macomb IL 61455
                                                   309/836-1447

OBJECTIVE:  To teach history and historical thinking.

EDUCATION:
  MA in History, Dec93, WIU:  3.8 (out of possible 4.0) GPA
      Fields:  Modern Europe and U.S. (Military/Diplomatic)
    Thesis topic:  Significance to the West of the Katyn Massacre
    Initiated (for general scholarship) into Phi Kappa Phi, Apr92,
        and Phi Alpha Theta, Dec91
  MS in Library Science, Aug73, Univ. of Illinois/Champaign/Urbana
  BA in Philosophy, May72, Augustana College (Rock Island, Illinois)
    (Also: Knox Coll., Sep65-Mar66, and U.S. Mil. Acad., Jul64-Jan65)
  Rock Island Senior High School, Class of 1964

PUBLICATION:
  "A New Library Patron:  The Systemwide User."  ILLINOIS LIBRARIES
      75 (May93:  Library Cooperation):  240-42.
  A PLACE FOR GAMES AND SIMULATIONS IN ACADEMIC LIBRARIES:  ARE THEY
      DIGESTIBLE?  ERIC Document ED 330 339.  1990.
  "Best Laid Plans . . . ASPIN and the Quest for Total Depository
      Collection of Alaska State Publications."  ILLINOIS LIBRARIES
      71 (Nov89:  Accessing Government Documents):  457-62.
  GERMAN EAGLE VS. RUSSIAN BEAR:  A WORLD WAR II RUSSIAN FRONT BOARD-
      GAME KIT.  ED 287 786.  1987.  (2d ed. to be republished 1994)
  Various library education handouts, etc.

EXPERIENCE:
  Teaching:
    Library research skills instruction classes, Jan89-present
    "Campaigns of World War II," Juneau-Douglas (Alaska) Comm. Coll.
        1976(?)
  Librarianship:
    Western Illinois University Library, Jan89-present
      Reference librarian, Jan89-present
      Part-time:  Quad Cities Library Services Coordinator, Sum92-
          Oct92;  WIU Map Librarian, Sum91-Sum92;  Government
          Publications, Jan89-Sum91
    Alaska State Library, Juneau, Sep73-Jan89
  U.S. Army, volunteer/draftee, Jan67-Jan69:  West Texas and Germany

ACTIVITIES, SERVICE, ORGANIZATIONS:
  WIU (Student-Faculty) Council on Student Welfare (CSW), 1991-pres.
  WIU Chess Club Faculty Advisor, 1990-present
  World War II Studies Association (formerly, American Committee on
      the History of the Second World War), 1986-present
  North Central Association High School Accreditation Team (evalu-
      ating Rock Island Senior High School library), Nov92
  Various Internet forums: MILHST-L, WWII-L, CONSIM-L, H-DIPLO, IACRL
  Contributor, MAGAZINES FOR LIBRARIES (1994)
  Various library committees, organizations

LANGUAGES:  Some German, a little French, less Russian

INTERESTS:
  Military and naval history and gaming, classical music, chess,
      Alaska, general reading, sailing, jogging.

REFERENCES:
  Prof. Nicholas Pano, Associate Dean of Arts and Sciences and
      (Soviet and Eastern Europe) History professor, WIU,
      309/298-1828
  Dr. Sterling Kernek, (Diplomatic) History professor, WIU,
      309/298-1350
  Dr. Daniel Wise, Chair, Geography Department, WIU, 309/298-1648

                          * * * * * * *

I might add that I enjoy people and helping them learn.  Also, I have
  a personal, living memory of the important events of post-1950
  history, while maintaining/nurturing a somewhat independent and
  original mind about them.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 10 Jan 1994 16:26:09 GMT
From:    Stephen Baldwin <smb@NETMGRS.CO.UK>
Subject: David Irving

Bill Huber writes...

>       Ditto that!  Good work.  All I had that mentioned Vlasov (correct
>       spelling - don't know where I got that 2nd "s") was David Irvings
>       book(s), _Hitler's War_.  In there all it says is that Vlasov was
>       captured and volunteered to lead an Army against Stalin.
>
>       Hitler didn't think much of Vlasov according to Irving.  He quotes
>       Hitler as having said something to effect: "What a swine that Vlasov
>       must be.  Stalin made him a General.  Everything he is he owes to
>       Stalin and now he bites the hand that fed him."
I'm interested to see David Irving quoted. He is presumably the
same chap who denies the Holocaust but has admitted recently
that it *may* have happened? I don't think his views on the
Holocaust are held in much esteem by most professional historians
as far as I can ascertain.
What about his views on other subjects?

steve baldwin
smb@netmgrs.co.uk

**********************************************************************
Colemanball

"...and Janet Reger talks about the ups and downs of the ladies
underwear business..." / Trailer for "Woman's Hour" radio programme

**********************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 10 Jan 1994 10:31:34 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Air: selected German targets

In Lou's message of  7 Jan 1994 at 1611 CST, he wrote:

(regarding B-17s and B-24s)

>      While I realize that some squadrons would be hit hard while
> others completely missed,

This jogged a couple of synapses and dislodged a story that was told
to me while attending the reunion of the 450th Bombardment Squadron
(Heavy) which flew B-24s out of Manduria, Italy.  The story points
out what Lou was saying perfectly about unit losses.

The 450th flew missions all over Italy, Yugoslavia, Austria, Germany,
Rumania and others.  On one of these missions a B-24 developed engine
problems while en route to a target and two of its engines had conked
out.  Returning to Manduria the lone plane was jumped by German
fighters.  Realizing that they were going to get shot down they
signalled their intent to surrender by putting down their landing
gear at which the Germans stopped shooting and formed up with three
fighters around the plane, one front and one on either wing.

The copilot managed to clear the problem with the engines and with
all four going they decided that they would make a break for home.
The pilot notified the crew of the plan and at the specified moment
the gunners all opened up on the German escort two of whom went down.
One got away and reported the incident.  The B-24 made it home.

Over the radio the "Berlin Bitch" (as they called her) began
broadcasting messages to the 450th about how the Luftwaffe was gonna
be looking for them.  The 450th had distinctive tail markings that
consisted of the stabilizers having a diagonal sinister with the
lower half painted white.  This bought them the name "Cotton Tails"
and gave the Germans easily identifiable targets when they formed
with other squadrons to fly missions.

This is just what happened.  According to members of the 450th, they
were singled out from long bomber formations for fighter attack.
The Germans never forgot that incident and attacked the 450th at
every opportunity to the end of the war.

Cheers,  Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 10 Jan 1994 11:25:09 -0400
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: B-24 ditching trivia

As Bill Thacker mentioned, ditching at sea was a much more risky
proposition in a B-24 than in a B-17.  One of the reasons was that
the B-24 had larger and comparatively more flimsy bomb bay doors,
which usually collapsed upon contact with the sea.  A few months
ago, I had the opportunity to tour the USAF Museum's B-24D
"Strawberry Bitch".  Laying in the bomb bays were curved pieces of
wood, apparently cut from 2x10s.  They were stenciled to indicate
that they were to be used to brace the bomb bay doors for ditching.

Also, the B-17 had broad, low-mounted wings, while the B-24's wings
were mounted high on the fuselage.  When a B-17 ditched, the wings
could take the brunt of the impact, while a B-24 landed on its belly.

Dennis E. Sparks
SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 10 Jan 1994 12:29:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Code Breaking

For those of you in the US and Canada, the Public Broadcasting Station
in New York City broadcast previews of upcoming 1994 shows over the
weekend.  One of the programs (I think it will be NOVA) will cover code
breaking during World War II.  There were no dates or dates given; it
will probably vary by PBS station anyway.  However, if you happen to
see it listed locally, you may want to broadcast it so we could all
check our local listings for the show.



-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 10 Jan 1994 12:00:25 CST
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: GEN: Doolittle Memorial Flight in April

Just as a bit of info, there is a plan to put together a special flight
of B-25s at this year's Doolittle Raider's Reunion in Pebble Beach,
California.  The flight is intended to pay respects to General Doolittle,
who passed away last year.

The goal is definitely sky high!  There are about 34 flyable B-25s in
existence.  Of those, about 28 (or fewer) are in some sort of flying
condition.  Some of those are not in the United States.

The desire/dream/goal is to put together a flight of 16 B-25s one last
time and provide an escort of 8 P-51s.

If this happens, it will be a spectacular site on April 16th in California.

To give an idea of how difficult this will be, we very much wish to attend
this reunion, even if nothing else happens.  We flew the memorial salute
to Doolittle during his funeral at Arlington National Cemetery and would
like to complete the mission with a trip to the other coast to pay respect
to the rest of the crews.

Even though we are in the midwest, the cost for fuel and oil alone will
require approximately $8,500.  Minimum.  That will give you an idea of the
potential costs involved in bringing a B-25 from the East Coast, like
Panchito.  This includes minimal flying, no unexpected expenses, no lodging,
food, etc.

If you're in or near Pebble Beach in April, you might want to check this
out and see what has come together.  The sight of even three B-25s today
is stunning.  The thought of 16 is breath-taking...

On the other hand, if you know a sponsor who would like to help send a
couple of B-25s to this, we'd certainly like to hear about them!  (What
would the cost per person be on the mailing list to support a B-25 flight
to California...?  :-) :-)

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 10 Jan 1994 13:36:31 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN: Charging Windmills

Date sent:      Mon, 10 Jan 1994 08:39:41 -0600
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
From:           WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject:        Re: GEN: Charging Windmills
Originally to:  WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>


Bill and others,

The name Kate ter Horst does strike chord! What a waste, and, as Bill
states, she did coach Liv Ullmann in that movie. In fact, there was
much physical resemblance. How terrible! Such an ignominious way to
go, after all she had been through.

Thanks for the post.

Terry

----------------------------------------------------------------------
In your message of  7 Jan 1994 at 1158 CST, you write:
> Re Arnhem etc, nothing to do with the tactical debate but it just reminded
> me that 2nd half of 1993, the lady known as The Angel of Arnhem, can't remembe
r
> her name, but she tended many wounded/dying soldiers,
> and is depicted in "A Bridge Too Far",  was tragically killed
> in a road accident as she walked near her home.
>
> smb
>

Kate ter Horst???  Really, what a drag.  She coached the actress
(Liv Ullman) that portrayed her in the movie (as did many of the
principal characters).  I had not heard of her death.

Bill Huber


Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 10 Jan 1994 14:49:13 EST
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: GEN: Doolittle Memorial Flight in April

>On the other hand, if you know a sponsor who would like to help send a
>couple of B-25s to this, we'd certainly like to hear about them!  (What
>would the cost per person be on the mailing list to support a B-25 flight
>to California...?  :-) :-)
>
>Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
>rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force

Well, are you tax-deductible? (-:

ken koester
maint2@bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 10 Jan 1994 14:44:51 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Czechs and WWII

George,

Here is the info you requested.

Mr. O. Kusera
Renneska 42
BRNO 63900

Sorry to have taken so long to get this to you but I have had trouble
with your e-mail address, and will post it to the list in the hope
that you will receive it.

It may take several attempts, but someone there will answer you. To
my knowledge, he is still living.

Please let me know, if there is anything else I can do to help you.

Thanks, and hope this helps.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 10 Jan 1994 16:39:20 EST
From:    Doug McCabe <mccabe@OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Kate Ter Horst

                   Ohio University Electronic Communication


   Date:  10-Jan-1994 04:35pm EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject:  Kate Ter Horst


    It is sadly true that Kate and her husband, Jan, were both killed by an
    automobile just outside of their home while taking a walk.  I do not
    have the date at hand but I'll try to get it from a vp here at OU.
    He's Dutch, lived through the battle, and introduced Kate and Liv
    Ullman on the set for the filming of "A Bridge Too Far."

    Doug McCabe
    dmccabe1@ohiou.edu



Received:  10-Jan-1994 04:39pm

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 10 Jan 1994 16:59:55 EST
From:    Doug McCabe <mccabe@OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Carrying Bags

                   Ohio University Electronic Communication


   Date:  10-Jan-1994 04:41pm EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject:  Carrying Bags


    While it would be great fun having someone carry my bags to Holland, I
    am under strict orders to leave the women at home. ;-)

    I am also ordered to only take one suitcase - travelin' light or we
    don't trust baggage - and I'm wondering if I should be sure it can
    double as a floatation device.  (Like anyone could survive longer than
    90 seconds in either the Atlantic or the North Sea this time of year.)

    Doug



Received:  10-Jan-1994 04:59pm

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 10 Jan 1994 16:42:48 CST
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: GEN: Doolittle Memorial Flight in April

> >On the other hand, if you know a sponsor who would like to help send a
> >couple of B-25s to this, we'd certainly like to hear about them!  (What
> >would the cost per person be on the mailing list to support a B-25 flight
> >to California...?  :-) :-)
> >
> >Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
> >rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force
>
> Well, are you tax-deductible? (-:

But of course we are.  501(c)(3) and all that stuff.

(And no, I can't stop you from dating a check 1993, even though I have to
tell you the IRS takes a dim view of that... :-)

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 10 Jan 1994 18:50:00 EST
From:    Carl Wernke <TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET>
Subject: TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET

 Subject: EDU:RE: CARL-MOTIVES? THE PEARL HARBOR PAPERS--BUSHIDO SPIRIT 1 OF 3
 X-TO: WWII-L@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu
 TO: MULTIPLE RECIPIENTS OF LIST WWII-L (WWII-L@UBVM.BITNET)

 Lou, Dan, Bill, et al.,

 Part one and part two of three, for some reason, did not make it through to
 the net. On 9 Jan, part one was acknowledged and duplicated. Consequently,
 I am once again reposting the  first two parts of "Carl-Motives?" "The
 Bushido Spirit," endeavoring to answer Lou and et al's questions. "Don't
 Give Up the Ship," etc.

 In 1921, when Mitsuo Fuchida entered the Japanese naval academy at Etajima, he
 stated the navy was already indoctrinating its future officers with the idea
 that "The potential enemy is America." Both Minoru Genda and Fuchida were
 indoctrinated on this precept, and both became leaders for the promotion and
 advancement of the Imperial Japanese Navy Air Arm, suported by the influence
 of ADM Isoroku Yamamoto.

 If there was going to be a war, as a loyal Japanese naval officer, ADM
 Yamamoto considered the problem of war against the United States. Just as the
 U.S.Navy had its Plan Orange, which envisioned a war against Japan, so the
 Japanese had their Kantai Kessen Plan, or decisive battle plan. They expected
 the U.S.Pacific Fleet to steam out from San Diego, heading west, preparing
 to attack Japan in Asian waters. First of all, Japanese submarines would find
 and harass the American fleet by constant attacks, destroying as many capital
 ships as possible. Then someplace favorable to Japan, where the navy could
 employ its major fleet elements, the sea battle would be joined. The Americans
 would be defeated, and Japan would  control the Asian seas.

 But as 1940 came to an end, it became obvious that the problem was not so
 simple.

 Yamamoto was then evolving his own war plan, which he based on the
 practicalities as he knew them. He told the Imperial Palace that the size of
 the Combined Fleet ought to be doubled, the number of carriers increased, and
 the number of planes more than doubled.

 When the United States split its fleet in 1940 and created the Pacific Fleet
 at the forward base of Pearl Harbor, ADM Yamamoto saw both danger and
 opportunity. The new base gave the Americans a major advantage, but it also
 concentrated the American Pacific Fleet in one small basin, where under
 certain conditions it would be very vulnerable.

 The lesson of Taranto came back to Yamamoto that fall (November 1940). He
 began talking to RADM Fukudome, then his chief of staff, and more and more
 often mentioned Pearl Harbor. By the end of the year, an idea had gotten into
 his head. Yamamoto was convinced that aerial torpedoes would play a big part
 in any new war. This was all new doctrine, and in retrospect it seems almost
 incredible that ADM Yamamoto could have persuaded his naval peers, most of
 them battleship men by training, to accept all these innovations in so short a
 time as the fall of 1939 until the winter of 1941.

 Yamamoto was an excellent leader, but many younger officers were of the same
 mind. To understand why  this was important, one must realize that in the
 Japanese naval system, staff officers -- bright young "Brains" as they were
 called by commanders -- were given an enormous amount of authority. The
 commanders always had the responsibility, but his willingness to delegate
 authority to his staff was quite unlike anything of the sort in any other
 navy. Thus you had commanders and lieutenant commanders of the navy exerting
 major policy influence at the fleet level. One such commander was Minoru
 Genda, who did much of the detailed planning work for the attack on Pearl
 Harbor. He also was the architect of a  plan to reorganize the navy so that
 the carrier attack force became all powerful. The doctrine here was to mass
 the carriers and mass the attack. It would work very well at Pearl Harbor and
 at Trincomalee, as well as down in the south pacific in the early days of the
 war, but it would fail at Midway and cost the Japanese very dearly. This was
 not because the danger was forgotten at the Combined Fleet level --at Midway
 the striking force would be warned to spread out -- but the striking force
 would not listen to orders -- once again, this independence was
 characteristic of the Japanese navy, an indication, perhaps,  of a reason that
 doctrinal changes did not seem so difficult as with other navies.

 End of part one -- continued on part two.


  CARL WERNKE
  TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 00:20:20 GMT
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <gummihe@ISMENNT.IS>
Subject: Re: Air: selected German targets

Regarding the story of the 450th bomber squadron:

        The Germans were quite right in sigle them out for that
incident. You dont signal surrender and then attack you captors and
expect no retaliations from them. If this were done by many then the act
of surrender would mean nothing and surrendering parties would simply be
shot down.

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 9 Jan 1994 to 10 Jan 1994
************************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 10 Jan 1994 to 11 Jan 1994
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Status: O

There are 35 messages totalling 1077 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Gen. Vlasov (2)
  2. David Irving (5)
  3. TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET (4)
  4. USAAF 4-9Jan44/ B-17 vs. B-24 question
  5. USAAF 11 JAN 44
  6. B-17 vs. B-24
  7. Plan Orange (3)
  8. B-24 wing hits;  Thanks for responses
  9. U.S. "betrayal" of Gen. Vlasov and Waffen-SS (2)
 10. Japanese war motives -- Response to Carl W.
 11. B-24 ditching trivia (2)
 12. TECH/TAC: DeGaulle as a 'blitzkrieg' proponent? (2)
 13. GEN: Charging Windmills
 14. TRV: The Three Concentric Circles (2)
 15. Latvian Legion
 16. Yamamoto's plan
 17. SS Units.
 18. GERMAN VETERANS
 19. Air: selected German targets
 20. B-25s
 21. ADMIN: Listowner working with one foot in a bucket.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 00:13:39 -0600
From:    Jon Stevens <jstevens@DAVID.WHEATON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gen. Vlasov

George and all,

I will get more info on Gen. Vlasov this week but a couple of facts came
to mind.  I'm fairly certain that Vlasov was executed in 1948.  A few
sentances in _Pravda_ anounced that he had been executed for crimes against
the Soviet Union.  I think that Thorwald writes that no information exists
on the period of Vlasov's Soviet imprisonment (1945-48).  Maybe some
researcher will find some files in the Soviet archives pertaining to Vlasov's
interrogations and finish the story of Gen. Vlasov.  I'll bet he didn't get a
trial before his execution.

Regarding how Vlasov ended up near Prague, I think that there were two
reasons.  One being the Russian Army of Liberation was following the
general retreat of the Germans.  Another reason was that the two divisions
of the R.A.L. was forming up somewhere in Czechoslovakia.  I will also try to
find out the exact reason for Vlasov's turn against the Germans.  I may be
wrong but I think that Vlasov was supporting the Czech nationalists and
not the Czech Communists in the liberation of Prague. This was the only
battle that the R.A.L. fought as a unit.  Thorwald does say that there
were a few large units of Russians setup by frontline German divisions
earlier in the war but this was discouraged by the German command.

All this was from memory, I'll get the Thorwald book tomorrow and some
more info later in the week.

Jon Stevens     e mail -- jstevens@david.wheaton.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 01:24:34 CST
From:    Steve Alvin <salvin@HEARTLAND.BRADLEY.EDU>
Subject: Re: David Irving

Steve Baldwin asked about Irving's books on subjects other than
those dealing with the Holocaust.  Well, the commander of the
naval escort of Convoy PQ 17 successfully sued Irving for libel
over his portrait of him in *The Destruction of Convoy PQ 17.*

--
Steve Alvin
salvin@heartland.bradley.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 01:48:21 CST
From:    Steve Alvin <salvin@HEARTLAND.BRADLEY.EDU>
Subject: Re: TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET

One possible source of Yamamoto's plan to attack Pearl Harbor may
have been the writings of Hector Bywater, naval correspondent of
the *London Times*.  In 1921 he published the book *Sea Power in
the Pacific*, and in 1925 expanded this work into the novel *The
Great Pacific War*  In these books, Bywater envisions a Japanese
surprise attack on the U. S. fleet at Pearl Harbor.  Simultaneously,
they would attack Guam and the Philippines, landing at Lingayen Gulf.
The Naval General Staff in Tokyo had *Sea Power* translated and
distributed among its officers and *War* was adopted into the
curriculum at the Naval War College.

Yamamoto was naval attache in Washington in 1925 when *War* was
published.  It is hard to imagine that he was not aware of the
book.  It was featured on page one of teh New York Times Book
Review.

--
Steve Alvin
salvin@heartland.bradley.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 01:52:59 CST
From:    Steve Alvin <salvin@HEARTLAND.BRADLEY.EDU>
Subject: Re: USAAF 4-9Jan44/ B-17 vs. B-24 question

As someone who had the Saab turbo-prop he was riding it de-iced
THREE times while waiting to take off from Peoria last thursday,
it is easy to understand the problems with icing!

With all the comparision between the B-17 and B-24, I'd like to
throw in these stats:

Bomb tonnage dropped in the ETO

B-17's 640,036 tons

B-24's 452,508 tons

All other U. S. aircraft  463,544

--
Steve Alvin
salvin@heartland.bradley.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 07:17:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: USAAF 11 JAN 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
TUESDAY, 11 JANUARY 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  Me 110, Messerschmitt
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 36 A-36's, P-51's, and P-40's
pound an encampment containing about 4,900 troops and a large quantity of
supplies, causing considerable damage by accurate bombing and strafing.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): Before daylight 14 Japanese bombers hit the
airfield at Suichwan, China; during the morning 3 medium bombers and 15
fighters follow up with a second strike; 7 P-51's and 5 P-40's intercept the
second attack, claiming 3 medium bombers shot down. 8 B-24's bomb the harbor,
aluminum plant, and airfield at Takao, Formosa; 1 bombs oil storage at
Swatow, China. 4 B-24's mine harbors at Takao and Hong Kong; 1 B-24 is lost.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 182. Three aviation
industry targets in Germany are hit; fierce opposition estimated at 500
Luftwaffe fighters is encountered and 60 bombers and 5 fighters are lost.
  1. 177 B-17's are dispatched to Oschersleben; 139 hit the primary and 20
hit targets of opportunity; they claim 174-32-63 Luftwaffe aircraft; 34
B-17's are lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 83 damaged; casualties are 9
KIA, 11 WIA and 349 MIA.
  2. 114 B-17's are dispatched to Halberstadt; 52 hit the primary and 55 hit
targets of opportunity; they claim 35-11-19 Luftwaffe aircraft; 8 B-17's are
lost, 1 is damaged beyond repair and 42 damaged; casualties are 1 KIA, 18 WIA
and 81 MIA.
  177 P-47's and 44 Ninth Air Force P-51's escort; they claim 29-11-14
Luftwaffe aircraft; 2 P-47's are lost, 3 damaged beyond repair and 4 P-47's
and 1 P-51 are damaged; casualties are 2 KIA and 2 MIA. Major James H Howard,
a P-51 pilot of the 354th Fighter Group, shot down an Me 110 and then found
himself the lone escort for a B-17 group being attacked by 30 Luftwaffe
aircraft. For the next 30 minutes, he kept turning into the enemy fighters
and firing until only one gun was firing; by this time, he was credited with
2-1-2 Luftwaffe aircraft and saved the B-17's. Major Howard was awarded the
Medal of Honor.
  3. 234 B-17's and 138 B-24's are dispatched to Brunswick; 47 B-17's hit the
primary, 114 hit Osnabruck, 25 hit Bielefeld, 22 hit Peine, 10 hit Herford
and 1 hit Nienburg; no B-24's hit the primary, 58 hit Meppen, 1 hits Lingen
and 7 hit other targets; they claim 19-17-16 Luftwaffe aircraft; 16 B-17's
and 2 B-24's are lost, 1 each damaged beyond repair and 47 B-17's and 7
B-24's damaged; casualties are 5 WIA and 176 MIA. This mission is escorted by
49 P-38's and 322 P-47's; they claim 2-1-2 Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 P-38 and 2
P-47's are lost and 1 P-47 is damaged; casualties are 1 MIA. Among the PFF
aircraft are 4 B-24's, this being the first time B-24's are used in this
capacity.
  HQ 96th Combat Bombardment Wing (Heavy) is activated at Horsham St Faith,
England.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

 STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): B-17's, with P-38 escort, bomb
the harbor at Piraeus, Greece; they destroy 8 attacking fighters; 6 B-17's
are lost in midair collisions in the heavy overcast.
  Transfers in Italy:
  HQ 82d Fighter Group and 95th, 96th and 97th Fighter Squadrons from Lecce
to Vincenzo Airfield with P-38's.
  HQ 456th Bombardment Group (Heavy) and 744th, 745th, 746th and 747th
Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy) to Cerignola from the US with B-24's; first
mission is 10 Feb.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-26's attack the iron
and steel works at Piombino during the night of 10/11 Jan; during the day,
B-25's bomb Falconara (hitting the railroad junction) and railroad yards at
Fabriano; P-40's and A-36's blast defenses and gun positions in Cervaro-Monte
Trocchio, a gun position N of Minturno, the towns of Sora and Isola del Liri,
road traffic in the Macerata-Aquila-Popoli area, and railroad facilities at
San Giorgio del Sannio.
  Transfers:
  HQ 87th Fighter Wing to Nouvion, Algeria from the US.
  84th and 85th Bombardment Squadrons (Light), 47th Bombardment Group
(Light), from Vincenzo Airfield to Vesuvius Airfield, Italy with A-20's.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): In the Marshall Islands, 9
B-25's from Tarawa Atoll, Gilbert Islands hit 5 vessels and land
installations at Maloelap Atoll; a 5000-ton cargo ship and a small vessel are
sunk; 4 P-39's from Makin Island, Gilbert Islands dive-bomb and strafe
runways on Mille Atoll.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): About 90 Allied fighters
cover 60+ US Navy (USN) dive bombers attacking the Cape Saint George area,
New Ireland Island. 2 flights of P-39's strafe targets of opportunity from
Numa Numa to Koromira, Bougainville Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, B-25's,
P-39's, and P-40's hit Uligan Harbor, barges and the road near Bogadjim, the
Hansa Bay area, and the town of Alexishafen.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 07:26:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: B-17 vs. B-24

RE: The discussion yesterday about the higher loss of B-24's vs. B-17's

You cannot look at one mission and decide which aircraft had a higher loss
rate.  For example, consider today 50 years ago, i.e., 11 Jan 44.

B-17's: 58 of 485 B-17's were lost = 12% loss rate
B-24's: 2 of 66 B-24's were lost = 3% loss rate

One of these days, as soon as I clean up back issues of the AAF Combat
Chronology, I am going to write a program to analyze the losses of various
aircraft by month which will give a clearer indication of what was
happening when.

Stay tuned, same time, same station.

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 07:42:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Plan Orange

Unfortunately, I cannot remember where I read about Plan Orange, the
US Plan to attack the Japanese in the Pacific to "save" the Philippines, but
the thread in the book was that Plan Orange was unworkable and the US
military brass knew it but they "had to have a plan", i.e., there had to
be a plan to come to MacArthur's aid in the Philippines in the event of
Japanese attack to deliver supplies and reinforcements.  As I remember it,
Australia was not considered as a stopping point; in the event of an attack
on the Philippines, the US Navy would form a supply convoy at Pearl Harbor,
and go sailing off across the Pacific through those Japanese mandated islands
to save MacArthur ala, here comes the cavalry to the rescue.  The thought of
sailing old 20-knot battleships across the Pacific through Japanese-mandated
islands is ludicrous and both the Army and Navy knew it but they had their
plan.

As an aside, I also remember reading that some Naval aviators were not
exactly devistated when those old 20-knot battleships were sunk or damaged
at Pearl Harbor.  The older BB's could not keep up with the carriers and
the aviators were afraid they would have to slow down to stay with the
battleships.  It wasn't until the newer BB's, i.e., North Carolina, Iowa,
etc. class ships were commissioned, that the Navy have BB's that could keep
up with the carriers.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 09:34:25 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <kc5318@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: David Irving

>Steve Baldwin asked about Irving's books on subjects other than
>those dealing with the Holocaust.  Well, the commander of the
>naval escort of Convoy PQ 17 successfully sued Irving for libel
>over his portrait of him in *The Destruction of Convoy PQ 17.*
>
>--
>Steve Alvin
>salvin@heartland.bradley.edu
>

To echo what Steve said, Irving also had to retract the casualty figures from
his book on Dresden, from 135,000 or more down to about 35,000, though the
erroneous figure is still widely quoted.  I know we have discussed him before,
though it may have been on another net, and his reputation has not fared very
well.
                                   LTC Con Crane
                                   USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 10:09:28 EST
From:    Charles Reace <creace@ISD.CSC.COM>
Subject: Re: Plan Orange

Based on snippets of information I've picked up over occaisional
job-related visits to the US Naval War College, it's my impression that
most wargames there during the period between the World Wars had Japan
as the opposition force.  Prior to WWI, the opponents had usually been
the Red force, representing Britain (not Russia), as the greatest
naval threat to the US.  I don't know whether the naval powers that
were really thought we would ever go to war with Japan, but Japan was
their main antagonist for planning purposes, being as it had the largest
and best navy of any reasonably likely enemy.

There is a display case at Simms Hall (the wargames center at the NWC)
which has a letter from Adm. Nimitz which thanks the NWC for preparing
him and his staff, such that the only surprise encountered during
the Pacific War was the Kamikaze tactic.  (I suppose he meant tactical
surprises, vice the strategic surprise of Pearl Harbor and the invasion
of the Phillipines.)

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <creace@isd.csc.com>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 10 Jan 1994 21:54:20 -0600
From:    mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: B-24 wing hits;  Thanks for responses

Jack Mc,

     Your comment about this reminded me of the shot of a B-24
hit in the wings in the "Victory at Sea" segment "Rings around
Rabaul."

     Con, Bob, and everybody:  Thanks for the informative/
fascinating responses.

     If I ever had to play 1:1 WWII wargames for keepers, I
certainly know which mount *I*'d rather be flying.

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 10 Jan 1994 22:32:29 -0600
From:    mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: Re: U.S. "betrayal" of Gen. Vlasov and Waffen-SS

Gudmundur,

     First, I must tell you I have NO sympathy for the (Waffen-)
SS who were turned over to the Soviets at the close of the war.
The SS had massacred entire villages of Slavs in the East with
no qualm.  My understanding is that Waffen-SS were not as
separate from the concentration camp variety of SS as has been
occasionally claimed.

     Also, it is very easy to judge from hindsight, as I learned
from my thesis on the Katyn Massacre.  American GI's had just
"liberated" the concentration camps and felt no sympathy toward
Germans -- except, of course, the kids -- let alone toward Nazis.
The Malmedy Massacre of American GIs in the Ardennes was also a
fresh memory.

     Frankly, I'm surprised we didn't just turn all the SS over
to the Soviets categorically.  (It is a good thing we didn't.
The Soviet NKVD and Nazi SS had collaborated before "Barbarossa,"
and many former Gestapo and SS were quickly recruited by the
Communist regimes of Eastern Europe as it was.)

     As to Vlasov, you have more of a point.  However, once
again remember that we looked upon the Russians as fellow
allies who had suffered terribly at the hands of the Germans,
while contributing most of the war effort against them.
Also, Vlasov's (administrative) connection to the SS didn't
help his situation.

     I view Vlasov as a tragically naive Russian who WAS
trying to help his people AGAINST HITLER AND STALIN (as the
book's title goes).

     You might be interested to know that I also have little
sympathy for the Soviet commissars who were exterminated
categorically on Hitler's orders.  They were Stalinists who
furthered his (genocidal) methods, which were amply demon-
strated at Katyn, in the Baltic states, and at innumerable
other killing pits.  For the most part, they were not naive,
although surviving NKVD today suffer an interesting variant
of amnesia.

     Also, what were Icelanders doing at the time to try to
stop the evil raging in Europe?  You see, everyone could have
done more and better.

     You raised a good, fair question, G.  I/we hope you have
many more.  By the way, will your children's last name be
Gemund..son?  or have Icelanders ceased the Old Norse method
of names?

Lou Coatney, Western Illinois University Library,
  Macomb, Illinois  USA

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 00:04:31 -0600
From:    mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: Japanese war motives -- Response to Carl W.

Yeah, wasn't it just terrible of us to deny those poor
  Japanese militarists the raw materials necessary for them
  to continue murdering and raping Chinese men, women, and
  children with blithe, Bushido abandon?

(Wasn't there a shipload of scrap steel that sailed on to
  Japan even after Pearl?  Or was that just apocryphal?)

Maybe we should have let them have Australia, too.  :-)
  (Maybe we SHOULD have let them have New Zealand.  :-I  )

And maybe we're going to lose that war, after all.

Lou Coatney (speaking for hisself)

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 11:33:00 EST
From:    "W. C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <ERCOUPE@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: B-24 ditching trivia

>Also, the B-17 had broad, low-mounted wings, while the B-24's wings
>were mounted high on the fuselage.  When a B-17 ditched, the wings
>could take the brunt of the impact, while a B-24 landed on its belly.

>Dennis E. Sparks
>SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU
>Lexington, Kentucky.

I've always been curious about the 'ditching' mystique that surrounds
various aircraft.  I look at the seaplanes and amphibs and with FEW
exceptions, see aircraft with high or mid wings.  The Boeing Clippers,
the Albatross, etc.  I can understand that hull strengthening would
be necessary for structural integrity, but it would seem that a high
wing would be a plus in a ditching situation.  A low wing would more
easily catch on a wave crest and tear things up, one might think.

Then again, AFTER ditching, a low wing may provide added buoyancy with
the fuselage out of the water, while a fuselage like the B-24 would
be submerged.

Ditching is one of those items in flight training that is 95% folklore
and 5% researched information, according to the old time flight
instructors.  Obviously, tests would be destructive, and with a great
number of variables, hard data might be difficult to extract.

There are two parts...surviving the impact and then floating long enough
to get out.  From some combat footage, the Navy fighters lasted about
5 seconds on the surface, making it seem that buoyancy was the major
consideration.

If you want to start a heated discussion while hangar flying, bring
up ditching techniques....

Bill

N93774@vms.cis.pitt.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 11:03:47 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <kc5318@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET

>One possible source of Yamamoto's plan to attack Pearl Harbor may
>have been the writings of Hector Bywater, naval correspondent of
>the *London Times*.  In 1921 he published the book *Sea Power in
>the Pacific*, and in 1925 expanded this work into the novel *The
>Great Pacific War*  In these books, Bywater envisions a Japanese
>surprise attack on the U. S. fleet at Pearl Harbor.  Simultaneously,
>they would attack Guam and the Philippines, landing at Lingayen Gulf.
>The Naval General Staff in Tokyo had *Sea Power* translated and
>distributed among its officers and *War* was adopted into the
>curriculum at the Naval War College.
>
>Yamamoto was naval attache in Washington in 1925 when *War* was
>published.  It is hard to imagine that he was not aware of the
>book.  It was featured on page one of teh New York Times Book
>Review.
>
>--
>Steve Alvin
>salvin@heartland.bradley.edu
>

Steve,
     The latest Hamilton catalogue advertises a book called VISIONS OF INFAMY
that covers Bywater and his connections to the Japanese.  The ad speculates
that Yamamato ordered Bywater's death.  It doesn't sound very scholarly, but
then it is only $3.98.

                                                  LTC Con Crane
                                                  USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 12:16:51 EST
From:    Robert E George <regeorge@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Subject: TECH/TAC: DeGaulle as a 'blitzkrieg' proponent?

DeGaulle was an advocate of mechanized/armored warfare in the 1930's.

How close were his proposals to blitzkrieg as actually practiced by the
Germans? How workable were they -- were they realistic, or idealized?

Robert George
regeorge@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 11:23:24 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: GEN: Charging Windmills

In your message of 10 Jan 1994 at 1027 CST, you write:

> >       Kate ter Horst???

> Bill,
> I've only been "spectating" on this debate and have deleted previous
> entries so apologies if you've said all this before, but what is
> your interest in this subject? Are you a veteran?
>
> steve

Hi Steve,

No, I'm not a veteran, just a historian.  It just saddens me to hear
of the passing of historical personalities (or anybody else for
that matter) in such an avoidable way.

Regards, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 12:35:04 -0500
From:    Akira Takiguchi <akira@ATSON.ASAHI-NP.CO.JP>
Subject: Re: David Irving

     I have to agree that Irving's books must be read with more salts
than the others (especially recent ones), but if you are a sincere
researcher, you should read *everything* with a grain of salt, anyway.

>To echo what Steve said, Irving also had to retract the casualty figures from
>his book on Dresden, from 135,000 or more down to about 35,000, though the
>erroneous figure is still widely quoted.

     I haven't been able to get the official figure (say Dresden city's)
so far.  Can't anybody talk *NOT* from memory?  Anybody take the trouble
to ask Dresden City Hall?
--
      Akira Takiguchi  VP, ATSON, Inc.  (a subsidiary of the Asahi Shimbun)
             CANAL TOWER  9-3 Nihonbashi-Koamicho Chuo-ku Tokyo 103  Japan
   +81 3 3666 2881(voice) 2882(fax)  EMAIL TO <akira@atson.asahi-np.co.jp>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 12:35:09 -0500
From:    Akira Takiguchi <akira@ATSON.ASAHI-NP.CO.JP>
Subject: TRV: The Three Concentric Circles

For Panzer Buffs' Eyes Only:

     Recently I purchased _Field Uniforms of German Army Panzer Forces
in World War 2_ by M.H.Pruett/R.J.Edwards (J.J.Fedorowicz Publishing 1993).
Heartily recommended.

     On page 174 of this book, there is a picture of a Panzer II with
three concentric circles at the rear corner of the turret (Plate 8.4).
The author identifies it as that of 2./Pz.Pi.Btl. 37, but it might be
incorrect.  Here's my observation.

     My first encounter with the three concentric circles was in Scheibert
[1].  There are several photographs of Flammpanzer II's and Panzer II's in
2nd and 3rd company.  Scheibert left the marking unidentified.
     The earliest work I know that attributed three concentric circles to
Pz.Abt.100 was Zaloga/Grandsen [2] in 1983.  Schmitz/Thies [3] followed
(1987), but I doubt that the authors just quoted previous work.
     According to Niehorster [4], there were three flamethrower tank
battalions as of June 1941;  Pz.Abt.100 under Pz.Gr.2, Pz.Abt.101 under
Pz.Gr.3, and Pz.Abt.102 under 17 Armee.  Though I couldn't find assignment
information in Tessin [5], I came up with another source - biography of
Herbert Zimmermann [6].  There is a description of 1.Pz.Div. fighting in
close cooperation with Pz.Abt.101 in October 1941 in Kalinin area.  Since
1.Pz.Div was under Pz.Gr.3 at this time, it is safe to believe that the
author is correct.
     Thanks to Dr. Kurt Sander's photograph, now I tend to believe that
three concentric circles belonged to Pz.Abt.101.  I would appreciate your
opinions.

[1] Scheibert  _Panzer II_ (Band 19 in _Das Waffen-Arsenal_)  Podzun Verlag
[2] Zaloga/Grandsen  _The Eastern Front_  Arms and Armour Press
[3] Schmitz/Thies  _Die Truppenkennzeichen 1939-1945_ Band 1  Biblio Verlag
[4] Niehorster  _German World War II Organizational Series_ Volume 3/II
[5] Tessin  _Truppen und Verbaende der deutschen Wehrmacht und der
    Waffen-SS_ Band 6  Biblio Verlag
[6] Kollatz  _Panzerfuehrer Herbert Zimmermann_ (No.257 in the series
    _Der Landser Ritterkreuztraeger_)  Pabel Verlag
--
      Akira Takiguchi  VP, ATSON, Inc.  (a subsidiary of the Asahi Shimbun)
             CANAL TOWER  9-3 Nihonbashi-Koamicho Chuo-ku Tokyo 103  Japan
   +81 3 3666 2881(voice) 2882(fax)  EMAIL TO <akira@atson.asahi-np.co.jp>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 12:35:12 -0500
From:    Akira Takiguchi <akira@ATSON.ASAHI-NP.CO.JP>
Subject: Re: Latvian Legion

     Since nobody mentioned:  Hugh Page Taylor and Roger James Bender's
_Uniforms, Organization and History of the Waffen-SS_ Volume 5 (Bender
Publishing) covers Latvian and Estonian divisions to detail, referring
original documents and many litarature.  Though an old book (1982), it
is a recommended reading.
--
      Akira Takiguchi  VP, ATSON, Inc.  (a subsidiary of the Asahi Shimbun)
             CANAL TOWER  9-3 Nihonbashi-Koamicho Chuo-ku Tokyo 103  Japan
   +81 3 3666 2881(voice) 2882(fax)  EMAIL TO <akira@atson.asahi-np.co.jp>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 12:35:15 -0500
From:    Akira Takiguchi <akira@ATSON.ASAHI-NP.CO.JP>
Subject: Re: Gen. Vlasov

     I have read only two books that mentions Vlasov was Carell and Toland.
Somebody already mentioned Carell.  Toland's _The Last 100 Days_ mentions
Vlasov and ROA in the last two chapters of the book.  How Vlasov was involved,
how ROA entered Prague with welcome and how they had to left, and what
happened later.  Rather short account, but you can get the general picture.
--
      Akira Takiguchi  VP, ATSON, Inc.  (a subsidiary of the Asahi Shimbun)
             CANAL TOWER  9-3 Nihonbashi-Koamicho Chuo-ku Tokyo 103  Japan
   +81 3 3666 2881(voice) 2882(fax)  EMAIL TO <akira@atson.asahi-np.co.jp>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 12:13:06 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: David Irving

In Steve's message of 10 Jan 1994 at 1111 CST, he writes:

> I'm interested to see David Irving quoted. He is presumably the
> same chap who denies the Holocaust but has admitted recently
> that it *may* have happened? I don't think his views on the
> Holocaust are held in much esteem by most professional historians
> as far as I can ascertain.
> What about his views on other subjects?
>
> steve baldwin
> smb@netmgrs.co.uk

Hi Steve,

Yeah, I know, but it was the only books I could find that mentioned
Vlasov.  I got the two volumes of _Hitler's War_ at a used book sale
for $.50 each.

As much as I disagree with Irving's politics I must admit that he
does provide excellent bibliographies and good notes.  I have his
biography of Hermann Goering and the two vol. set _Hitler's War_.
I got the latter mostly for two reasons, 1) I wanted to verify an
error that I heard about his quoting a conversation or message from
Himmler to someone about a particular train load of Russian prisoners
that was not to be liquidated because it contained the son of Josef
Stalin.  2) He goes into some detail about the actions of
Gerneraloberst Erhard Raus on the eastern front and his subsequent
dismissal by Hitler.  Even here Irving makes the error of naming Raus
"Erich" rather then "Erhard" but I have found no other reference that
gives that much data on Raus's story.  I blundered onto a grouping of
Raus material including his uniform and several documents a few years
ago and have been looking for more info ever since (I recently came
across a biography of Raus but its out of print.  I located it
through LOCIS - a super source).

As for Irving, I think a lot of historians feel his work is sloppy
and pointed to his political ends.  He was successfully sued for
liable by the family of the convoy commander of PQ-17, his first book
which laid the blame for the convoy's destruction at the commander's
feet due to incompetence.  Many of his works have been picked apart
at one time or another.

His official stance on the Holocaust (last I heard it) was that
Hitler didn't know what was going on.  Presumably he would have
stopped it had he known.  Irving is called a Hitler apologist for
this reason but he does address neo-nazi gatherings in various parts
of he world and is very popular with them.  He does not say the
Holocaust didn't happen, rather that it was not as bad as it is said
to be and that gassings did not take place *anywhere*.  No serious
historian takes him seriously on this but among the ignorant he is
gaining support for these views by using half truths and
psudo-science.  For a more complete analysis of Irving contact Ken
McVay (kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca).  Ken has a FAQ dealing with all
aspects of the Holocaust and the current neo-nazi phenomena.  Tell
Ken that Bill says "hey". :-)  To see the debate live, sub to
alt.revisionism.  There are some sharp folks debating the neos there.

Cheers,  Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 14:02:00 EST
From:    Charles Reace <creace@ISD.CSC.COM>
Subject: Re: Yamamoto's plan

>One possible source of Yamamoto's plan to attack Pearl Harbor may
>have been the writings of Hector Bywater, naval correspondent of
>the *London Times*.  In 1921 he published the book *Sea Power in
>the Pacific*, and in 1925 expanded this work into the novel *The
>Great Pacific War*. . .

While I won't pretend to have any idea whether Yamamoto or others read
this book, I wonder if it matters.  If I were considering going to war
with a country and felt that the naval battle would be critical, and if
that opponent tended to bottle up a significant portion of its fleet in
one harbor, and if I had the means to do it (aircraft carriers), I think
I would have come up with the idea on my own.

I think possibly much more important was the British success at Taranto
(read _To_War_In_a_Stringbag_ for a great read!).  This gave them
positive empirical evidence of the potential of such a raid, at a
critical time (less than a year before Pearl).

Just my 1.3 cents worth (after taxes).

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <creace@isd.csc.com>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 13:59:01 EST5EDT
From:    Jon Kay <JONKAY@MINMET.LAN.MCGILL.CA>
Subject: Re: SS Units.

=|>  Frankly, I'm surprised we didn't just turn all the SS over to
=|>  the Soviets categorically.  (It is a good thing we didn't. The
=|>  Soviet NKVD and Nazi SS had collaborated before "Barbarossa,"
=|>  and many former Gestapo and SS were quickly recruited by the
=|>  Communist regimes of Eastern Europe as it was.)

The Russians actually let some SS personnel live? It was my
understanding that the death's head insignia meant just that for any
SS soldier unfortunate enough to find himself in the hand's of the
Russians.

------------------------------------------------
above message from : JONKAY@MINMET.LAN.MCGILL.CA
------------------------------------------------

"How wrong Emily Dickinson was!  Hope is not "the thing with
feathers."  The thing with feathers has turned out to be my nephew.
I must take him to a specialist in Zurich."

                            - Woody Allen (who else?)

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 11:41:30 EST
From:    rod holmes <rholmes@DHVX20.CSUDH.EDU>
Subject: Re: TECH/TAC: DeGaulle as a 'blitzkrieg' proponent?

< DeGaulle was an advocate of mechanized/armored warfare in the 1930's.
<
< How close were his proposals to blitzkrieg as actually practiced by the
< Germans? How workable were they -- were they realistic, or idealized?

If I remember right DeGaulle was more of a proponent of using tanks in
large formations such as divisions not the deep penetration operations
praticed by the Germans. This was a marked departure from the
French pratice of using their tanks in small formations, like battalions
and companies to support infantry formations.

Rod Holmes                      | The boredom eats me like cancer, down
rholmes@dhvx20.csudh.edu        | here on the farm. - U.K. Subs & GNR

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 15:36:19 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <kc5318@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: David Irving

>     I have to agree that Irving's books must be read with more salts
>than the others (especially recent ones), but if you are a sincere
>researcher, you should read *everything* with a grain of salt, anyway.
>
>>To echo what Steve said, Irving also had to retract the casualty figures from
>>his book on Dresden, from 135,000 or more down to about 35,000, though the
>>erroneous figure is still widely quoted.
>
>     I haven't been able to get the official figure (say Dresden city's)
>so far.  Can't anybody talk *NOT* from memory?  Anybody take the trouble
>to ask Dresden City Hall?
>--
>      Akira Takiguchi  VP, ATSON, Inc.  (a subsidiary of the Asahi Shimbun)
>             CANAL TOWER  9-3 Nihonbashi-Koamicho Chuo-ku Tokyo 103  Japan
>   +81 3 3666 2881(voice) 2882(fax)  EMAIL TO <akira@atson.asahi-np.co.jp>
>

Akira,
 I got the information from a letter from Max Rosenberg in the April 1973 issue
of AIR FORCE MAGAZINE.  It quoted the figures of the Dresden police chief
(35,000) and discussed Irving's acknowledgement that those figures were more
accurate than his.
                                        LTC Con Crane
                                        USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 14:55:23 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: GERMAN VETERANS

John,

I wrote you yesterday, but I think it may not have gotten to you. I
will repost it tomorrow, when I have more time.

Thank you for your interest, and I will be in touch tomorrow.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 15:36:27 -0600
From:    mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: Re: Plan Orange

Right, Jack, it was actually a blessing the old dreadnoughts were
  bottomed at Pearl:

- It saved a massacre at sea -- Look what happened to the far
    faster and more maneuverable PRINCE OF WALES and REPULSE
    only a few days later in the South China Sea.

- It enraged/galvanized America at the thought of their "state
    ships" being attacked so treacherously when they were
    helpless.

- The battleline was the prestige target which drew attention
    away from the far more strategically valuable dry docks,
    (huge) fuel tank farm, (aviation gasoline laden) NEOSHO,
    (cruisers, destroyers, submarines, etc.).

- It forced America into a realistic realization of the naval
    odds against us.

- It gave us moral supremacy -- which DOES count for something.

- John Lundstrom, everybody:  Anything I've missed?

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 15:48:56 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET>
Subject: Re: TRV: The Three Concentric Circles

Akira:

I appreciate seeing your references very much.  It makes your postings
more valuable than the "I think I remember" variety, although I confess
I sometimes get ideas which I later pursue even from these postings.


  =========================================================================
  | DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
  |                                  | Computers in Business & Education. |
  | Recently returned from my second | Education:  Curriculum development.|
  |   extended stay in Prague.       |    International Education, TEFL.  |
  |                                  | Central Europe:  Post revolution   |
  | Working on second book about     |    economic, social, political     |
  |   Prague and new Czech Republic. |    problems and opportunities.     |
  | E-Mail:                          | Free lance writing and editing.    |
  |   USA:  BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET    | Stamp collecting.                  |
  =========================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 16:43:00 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: Air: selected German targets

In your message of 10 Jan 1994 at 1912 CST, you write:
> Regarding the story of the 450th bomber squadron:
>
>         The Germans were quite right in sigle them out for that
> incident. You dont signal surrender and then attack you captors and
> expect no retaliations from them. If this were done by many then the act
> of surrender would mean nothing and surrendering parties would simply be
> shot down.

I agree.  So did many of the members of the 450th which made that
pilot and crew *very* unpopular and got a lot of the 450th group
killed.

Regards, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 12:35:23 EST
From:    "William B. Thacker" <wbt@CBEMF.ATT.COM>
Subject: Re: U.S. "betrayal" of Gen. Vlasov and Waffen-SS

>      First, I must tell you I have NO sympathy for the (Waffen-)
> SS who were turned over to the Soviets at the close of the war.
> The SS had massacred entire villages of Slavs in the East with
> no qualm.  My understanding is that Waffen-SS were not as
> separate from the concentration camp variety of SS as has been
> occasionally claimed.
>
>      Frankly, I'm surprised we didn't just turn all the SS over
> to the Soviets categorically.

I guess it's because we have this annoying thing called "justice," and
under our system we require that an individual be found guilty of something
before we punish them.  Where war crimes could be attributed to
individuals, we tried the people and punished them.

It makes no more sense to blame all SS for war crimes than it does to blame
all German soldiers, or all Germans, period.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
(614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              wbt@cbemf.att.com
                      Humpty Dumpty was pushed!

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 21:12:21 -0500
From:    Warren Thompson <THOMPSON@ACAD.LVC.EDU>
Subject: B-25s

There was a posting earlier today about B-25s and a planned fly-in later
in the year (in California, I think). Unfortunately, I deleted this
message ... could someone re-post (or forward) it for me? I'll be grateful.

-- Warren Thompson
LEBANON VALLEY COLLEGE
Annville PA 17003

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 21:55:47 -0500
From:    Bob Smart <bsmart@SMART.COM>
Subject: Re: TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET

> One possible source of Yamamoto's plan to attack Pearl Harbor may
> have been the writings of Hector Bywater, naval correspondent of
> the *London Times*.  In 1921 he published the book *Sea Power in
> the Pacific*, and in 1925 expanded this work into the novel *The
> Great Pacific War*  In these books, Bywater envisions a Japanese
> surprise attack on the U. S. fleet at Pearl Harbor.  Simultaneously,
> they would attack Guam and the Philippines, landing at Lingayen Gulf.
> The Naval General Staff in Tokyo had *Sea Power* translated and
> distributed among its officers and *War* was adopted into the
> curriculum at the Naval War College.

In _The Great Pacific War_ The Japanese start out with an attack on the panama
canal not Pearl Harbor. They have a merchant ship transiting the Canal blow up
in the Gaillard Cut, closing the canal for months.

>
> Yamamoto was naval attache in Washington in 1925 when *War* was
> published.  It is hard to imagine that he was not aware of the
> book.  It was featured on page one of teh New York Times Book
> Review.

In the new Introduction to the 1991 edition of GPW it is mentioned that
Yammamoto reported on the book to his supieriors and that he met
Bywater at the 1934 London Conference "and the two whiled away an evening
discussing the prospects for peace and war in the Pacific"

The 1991 edition is by St. Martins Press. It's only failing is that it does not
have the Order of Battle appendix that I remember from the original.

Bob Smart (bsmart@smart.com)

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 21:22:41 CST
From:    Steve Alvin <salvin@HEARTLAND.BRADLEY.EDU>
Subject: Re: B-24 ditching trivia

Interestingly enough, Edward Jablonski reproduces much of the
pilot's manual for the B-17 in his book *Flying Fortress*.  It
includes the section on how to ditch the Fortress.

--
Steve Alvin
salvin@heartland.bradley.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 21:26:09 CST
From:    Steve Alvin <salvin@HEARTLAND.BRADLEY.EDU>
Subject: Re: TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET

Both of Bywaters books on the Pacific War have been re-printed
fairly recently, one in 1990 and the other in the 70's ( I can't
remeber which one was re-printed when).  Bywater died in 1940,
but I have a hard time believing the Japanese had anything to
do with it!

--
Steve Alvin
salvin@heartland.bradley.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 22:49:02 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: ADMIN: Listowner working with one foot in a bucket.

Mechanical and other problems are limiting my time on the computer. If I
owe anyone a reply I will try to get to it as soon as possible, but please
be patient while waiting. Purdue has "improved" the local systems to the
point of near-total breakdown. Since the VA has been doing the same to me,
my time at the keyboard is limited. Stay calm, don't panic, I'll be back
in full operability in 7-10 days, but the interim will be minimalistic. I will
give priority to "Get me off this damn list!" messages. Meanwhile, standby
to meet my entire "Hitler and Germany in the 20th Century" class, whom I
hope to get online by Feb.

Enjoy,
Larry J

JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 10 Jan 1994 to 11 Jan 1994
*************************************************

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Status: O

There are 27 messages totalling 932 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Gen: Radio Free Europe (2)
  2. USAAF 12 JAN 44
  3. GEN re: US aircraft manuals (2)
  4. Czechs and WWII
  5. David Irving (2)
  6. TECH/TAC: DeGaulle as a 'blitzkrieg' proponent
  7. SS Units. (2)
  8. TAC:  use of recon batallions
  9. Bookstores with WWII books (4)
 10. Question: re. Patton. (3)
 11. Correction on Soviet population losses
 12. Astra's "front"
 13. Articles of War in Skokie
 14. Gen Vlasov and Prague
 15. Question About Naval Warfare (2)
 16. Waffen-SS
 17. Icelandic casualities in WWII

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 07:14:34 +0100
From:    Richard Cummings <CUMMINGSR@ADMINA.RFERL.ORG>
Subject: Gen: Radio Free Europe

Many of you of the List have expressed an interest in what
is happening at Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (RFE/RL).
For those not interested, I apologize for putting this on
the WWII list, since it is not directly related (indirectly
since RFE/RL grew out of the WWII years). Here is one
news item about the most recent developments:

Radio Free Europe Chief Quits<
   WASHINGTON (AP) - William W. Marsh has resigned as head of
Radio Free Europe and Radio Liberty which broadcast news to
eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union, the Board of International
Broadcasting announced Tuesday.
   It said his letter to the board indicated he was quitting over
the prospect that the stations' headquartewould move from
Munich, Germany, to Prague in the Czech Republic.
   The resignation was accepted, effective immediately.
   "The board wishes to make it clear that no decision has been
made on a Prague move," the announcement said.
   It added that the proposal is beingtudied by the board and by
the stations' management with the help of Arthur Andersen and
Companyn international consulting and accounting firm. The study
will only be completed in "some weeks," it said.
   When the study is done, the board will make its recmmendations
to President Clinton and to Congress, where bills are pending on
the stations' fut.
   There has been a long debate over whether they should remain
independent. President Clinton's administration has proposed that
they be consolidated with the Voice of America, which is under
direct government control and also broadcasts to the area.
   Action is expected in the Senate at the end of January, but it
may be several months before the two houses of Cngress agree on a
bill to be sent to the president.
   Founded in 1949 and staffed by anti-Communiist emigres, the
stations were formerly under control of the U.S. Central
Intelligence Agency. That ended in the 1970s and they were placed
under an independent bord. Marsh. 61, took over last November as
the stations' chief executive after a 30-year career in
international broadcasting.



--==oo00oo==--
cummingsr@rferl.org
RFE/RL Inc
Munich,Germany

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 07:12:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: USAAF 12 JAN 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
WEDNESDAY, 12 JANUARY 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-24, Douglas Dauntless
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 20+ B-25's and P-38's hit the
marshalling yard at Letpadan, damaging warehouses, engine sheds, and other
buildings; the fighters also strafe Myohaung, setting 3 buildings afire.
  27th Troop Carrier Squadron, Tenth Air Force (attached to the Troop
Carrier Command, Eastern Air Command), arrives at Sylhet, India from the US
with C-47's.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 14 B-24's bomb the Bangsue marshalling yard
at Bangkok, Thailand.
  HQ 69th Composite Wing transfers from Kunming to Tsuyung, China.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 389th Fighter Squadron, 366th
Fighter Group, arrives at Membury, England from the US with P-47's; first
mission is 14 Mar.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Italy, P-47's fly a fighter
sweep in the Rome area, strafing the marshalling yard at Teramo and buildings
between the Tronto and Tesino Rivers.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): Colonel Archibald Y Smith assumes
command of the XII Air Force Training and Replacement Command.
  In Italy, B-25's and B-26's bomb the Giulianova railway bridge and attack a
dam and road bridge; A-20's hit San Donato; P-40's attack a vessel in the
Krka River of Yugoslavia, hit enemy defensive positions at San Biagio
Saracinesa, Sant' Elia Fiumerapido, Monte Trocchio, and Atina, and bomb
Vallerotonda; A-36's attack the Avezzano railroad yards, a village near
Atina, railroad facilities at Cisterna di Latina, and numerous trucks and
train cars in the Rome area.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): 21 A-24's from Makin Island,
Gilbert Islands dive-bomb AA positions and the storage area on Mille
Atoll, Marshall Islands and 20 supporting P-39's strafe runways.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 13
B-25's of the 42d Bombardment Group (Medium), on their first mission against
the Rabaul area, bomb Vunakanau Airfield in the early morning, and 16 B-24's
hit Lakunai Airfield during the night of 12/13 Jan; 19 B-24's, with an escort
of about 50 fighters, pound the airstrip and other targets at Tobera. On
Bougainville Island, 3 flights of P-39's bomb and strafe Teop, Inus Point,
Numa Numa, and Piano Mission; other aircraft on armed reconnaissance and
sweeps hit several targets of opportunity throughout the Bougainville area.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, B-24's and
B-25's attack the Alexishafen area and A-20's hit Warai. B-24's attack
Balikpapan, Borneo; Makassar, Celebes Island; and Dili, Timor Island.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 08:31:33 -0500
From:    "Sidney W. Kitchel" <kitchel@OCTOPUS.DPSI.COM>
Subject: GEN re: US aircraft manuals

Steve Alvin writes:
|->
|-> Interestingly enough, Edward Jablonski reproduces much of the
|-> pilot's manual for the B-17 in his book *Flying Fortress*.  It
|-> includes the section on how to ditch the Fortress.

        The pilot manuals for many WWII US aircraft are still
available in reproduction. I've seen ones for the B-17, F6U,
P-51, C-47, P-38, usw. You might want to contact the bookstore at the
U.S. Air Force Museum in Dayton. Other museums that specialize in
historical aircraft should also have them.

                                                        --Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel           kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 08:28:39 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Czechs and WWII

George,

Did you receive my post on that address in Brno? Your latest query
would suggest that you didn't.

Please advise.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 09:34:56 -0500
From:    Akira Takiguchi <akira@ATSON.ASAHI-NP.CO.JP>
Subject: Re: David Irving

LTC Con Crane wrote:
> I got the information from a letter from Max Rosenberg in the April 1973 issue
>of AIR FORCE MAGAZINE.  It quoted the figures of the Dresden police chief
>(35,000) and discussed Irving's acknowledgement that those figures were more
>accurate than his.

     Thank you for the source info.  The reason I had special interest
in this figure is because translator's note of _Slaughterhouse-Five_
(Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.) says: "... The estimated number of killed ranges from
35,000 to 200,000.  Dresden police department gives a conservative
estimate of 135,000, which is generally considered as the 'official' figure."

     This note was written in 1978.  I suspect that translator might have
been wrong to say that 135,000 was given by Dresden Police - it could have
been Irving's.  (Irving's _Destruction of Dresden_ is quoted in the book.
So it goes :-)

     It might be worth to check it again NOW;  For example, the estimated
number of killed in Tokyo Air Raid has been changing.  To make matters worse,
Tokyo metropolitan government and Defense Ministry have different ideas,
last I heard.

     I know, the number is not important.  *silent tribute*
--
      Akira Takiguchi  VP, ATSON, Inc.  (a subsidiary of the Asahi Shimbun)
             CANAL TOWER  9-3 Nihonbashi-Koamicho Chuo-ku Tokyo 103  Japan
   +81 3 3666 2881(voice) 2882(fax)  EMAIL TO <akira@atson.asahi-np.co.jp>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 09:00:04 -0600
From:    Astra M Apsitis-1 <apsit001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gen: Radio Free Europe

Sorry to continue on a subject that falls a little outside scope, but an
interesting note on the following:

>    (radio free europe)
 Founded in 1949 and staffed by anti-Communiist
emigres, the > stations were formerly under control of the U.S. Central
> Intelligence Agency.

To the general public, Radio Free Europe was funded by the mysterious Free
Europe Committee which somehow managed to raise the funds needed to run a
full-time radio station as well as the funds needed to run other
anti-communist agencies such as the Assembly for captive European Nations
through "private donors".  The committee board was made up of respectable
private businesspeople.  Only later (in the 1960's) was it disclosed that
Free Europe Committee was just a front for CIA operations.

ok--back on track...

astra

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 10:16:28 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <kc5318@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: TECH/TAC: DeGaulle as a 'blitzkrieg' proponent

>DeGaulle was an advocate of mechanized/armored warfare in the 1930's.
>
>How close were his proposals to blitzkrieg as actually practiced by the
>Germans? How workable were they -- were they realistic, or idealized?
>
>Robert George
>regeorge@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
>

Robert,
     Look at Robert Doughty's SEEDS OF DISASTER.  It covers DeGaulle's theories
and their influence, and provides some background sources.

                                        LTC Con Crane
                                        USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 10:08:28 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <kc5318@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN re: US aircraft manuals

>Steve Alvin writes:
>|->
>|-> Interestingly enough, Edward Jablonski reproduces much of the
>|-> pilot's manual for the B-17 in his book *Flying Fortress*.  It
>|-> includes the section on how to ditch the Fortress.
>
>        The pilot manuals for many WWII US aircraft are still
>available in reproduction. I've seen ones for the B-17, F6U,
>P-51, C-47, P-38, usw. You might want to contact the bookstore at the
>U.S. Air Force Museum in Dayton. Other museums that specialize in
>historical aircraft should also have them.
>
>                                                        --Sid
>--
>Sidney W. Kitchel           kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com
>Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
>4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
>Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121


Sidney,
     The ZENITH BOOKS catalogue also offers many of them, though they are
expensive.
                              LTC Con Crane
                              USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 10:29:11 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: SS Units.

In Jon's message of 11 Jan 1994 at 1404 CST, he writes:

> The Russians actually let some SS personnel live? It was my
> understanding that the death's head insignia meant just that for any
> SS soldier unfortunate enough to find himself in the hand's of the
> Russians.
>
> ------------------------------------------------
> above message from : JONKAY@MINMET.LAN.MCGILL.CA
> ------------------------------------------------

Hi Jon,

I've not heard of the Russians using former SS but I do know they
were used in Argentina, Paraguay and other South American countries.
I seem to remember that a GESTAPO chief was head of security police
in Syria during the Arab / Israeli wars.  I want to say it was
Heinrich Muller but I'm not sure.  He was GESTAPO chief under
Reinhard Heydrich.  Anybody got better data on this???? Help!

Regards,  Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 11:53:49 EST
From:    Charles Reace <creace@ISD.CSC.COM>
Subject: TAC:  use of recon batallions

Stream of conciousness:  DeGaulle and armor tactics . . . German armor
tactics . . . remembering reading von Luck's _Panzer_Commander_ and how
during the advance into Russia it was "just keep advancing".

Recalling Hans von Luck's account, it struck me that during his part
in the Russian campaign ('41-early '42) and in North Africa, the use
of the Recce Batallions in the panzer divsions was not exactly what I
would have expected.  During this period he was part of or in command
of the recon batallion, and it seemed that it usually fought as a
batallion, making it essentially another major maneuver element for
the division.  A company or two might be detached occaisionally for
true recon work, but generally the batallion fought as unit.

My question is, does anybody know if this was standard practice in
the German divisions throughout the war?  And for that matter, how about
the armored cavalry batallion usually part of the US armored divisions:
did they fight as a unit or were they usually broken up and parcelled
out for pure recon work?

Charles

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <creace@isd.csc.com>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 15:59:50 GMT
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <gummihe@ISMENNT.IS>
Subject: Bookstores with WWII books

Good day, would anyone have with him information on a good book store
that would have a mail order section that would deal with WWII books,
preferably also out of print books. I need mostly u-boat books but also
other books about WWII navies and the fighting in general, including Air
Forces and Armies.

Thank you for your time.

Gudmundur Helgason

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 12:34:00 EST
From:    "W. C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <ERCOUPE@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Question: re. Patton.

I was looking through our University's tour brochure and saw that
they were offering a tour to Normandy for the 50th anniversary of
D-Day.  In the itenerary, they mentioned a visit to the gravesite
of Gen. Patton.  Exactly where is this site?  I had always assumed
that after his death, his body was returned to the states.

Bill
N93774@vms.cis.pitt.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 12:31:09 -0400
From:    george urbaniak F <gurbania@MACH1.WLU.CA>
Subject: Re: Correction on Soviet population losses

I would like to bring to the attention of those scholars interested in the
problem of Soviet losses the publication of "Grif sekretnocti sniat:
poteri vooruzhenn'ich sil SSSR v voinach, boev'ich deistviach i boennich
Konfliktach (ed. G.F. Krivosheev) which was published by the Institute of
Military History at the Russian Academy of Sciences.  It is by far the
most detailed discussion of losses in all wars in which the Soviet Union
took part.  It is chock full of statistics about losses by front,
battle, army, rank.  It is probably as accurate as material in the Soviet
archives permits. If I remember correctly the authors believe the figure
of total losses for the Soviet Union was around 28 million and of these
3.7 million were Red Army soldiers who died at the front. The most
suprising evidence they provide is for the enormous and disproportionate
losses of Germany's Allies on the Eastern Front esp. among the Rumanians,
Hungarians and Italians.

On Thu, 6 Jan 1994, Cathy Lewis wrote:

> The study on losses in population growth resulting from World War II on the
> USSR was not done by Murray Feshbach, but was a Soviet study. The estimate was
> that by 1959, the Soviet Union had 50 million fewer people than it would have,
> had normal population growth continued from 1941. This study takes into
> account the slowed population recovery due to the absence of males first the
> first generation after the war. The citation is: V.V. Pokshiishevskii,
> _Geografiia naseleniia sssr: ekonomiko-geograficheskie ocherki_ (Moscow,
> Proveshchenie, 1971).
>
> Would you all find it useful to tally up the numbers? Now that we've gotten
> this far, I would find it instructive to know exactly what magnitude we're
> talking about. With only figures on the Soviets, concentration camp victims
> and Chin a, I have a total of 62 million (77 million, if one counts the
> morerecent Soviet numbers). It there a classic article out there on this
> subject? And does anyone know what the world population was in 1939? I'll be
> keeping a tally as the numbers come in. Right now, we seem to be talking about
> 5%+ of the world population dying within the period of one decade.
>
> Cathleen S. Lewis (NASSE050@sivm.si.edu)
> National Air and Space Museum
> Smithsonian Institution

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 13:49:00 EST
From:    Charles Reace <creace@ISD.CSC.COM>
Subject: Re: Bookstores with WWII books

Gudmundur, I'd recommend you contact the U.S. Naval Institute.  The
prices aren't the best unless you get a USNI membership, in which case
you generally get a 20% discount.

   U.S. Naval Institute
   Customer Service
   2062 Generals Highway
   Annapolis MD 21401

Phone:  800-233-8764 or 410-224-3378
Fax:  410-224-2406

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <creace@isd.csc.com>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 13:47:17 -0500
From:    Justin Gustainis SUNY-Plattsburgh <GUSTAIJJ@SPLAVA.CC.PLATTSBURGH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bookstores with WWII books

A good source for out-of-print World War II books is The War Room, 31 McKinley Ave.,Washington, NJ 07882 (908) 689-8256.  I believe they deal in mail order
exclusively.  Call or write for their current catalog.

Justin Gustainis
Department of Communication
SUNY-Plattsburgh

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 13:02:03 -0600
From:    mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: Astra's "front"

Regardless of Radio Free Europe's funding, it performed
  a necessary service covering the reptilian antics of the
  Soviets and their proxies.

Frequently, it investigated issues that (leftwing) media and
  academia wouldn't touch.

To those behind the Iron Curtain, it certainly wasn't "just a
  front."  It still exerts a democratizing influence in Europe,
  and there still seems to be a need for that, as Europeans
  reconcile with each other to rebuild their Continent into the
  leader/superpower that it can and should be.

The astronomical hypocrisy of some academics, concerning
  democratizing efforts by the U.S. (people and) government
  only grows more perverse, it seems.

Lou Coatney (speaking for hisself)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 13:03:15 -0600
From:    John Lundstrom <jl@CSD4.CSD.UWM.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bookstores with WWII books

My favorite military bookstore is Articles of War Ltd., 8806 Bronx Ave.,
Skokie, Illinois 60077  (708) 674-7445. Bob Ruman, the owner, goes out
of his way to get military books from all over the world and maintains
a strong stock of used books as well.
        John Lundstrom   jl@csd4.csd.uwm.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 13:15:54 -0600
From:    mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: Articles of War in Skokie

I'll second John Lundstrom's recommendation of A/W.  I found
  some of the old Almark naval camouflage books, including one
  on Tribal class destroyers for $12!  not to mention other
  treasures.

(Apologies to fellow wargamers:  I pretty well cleaned out
  the zip-lock copies of S&T "classics" which I have used to
  re-mint my magazine issues.)

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 11:58:56 -0600
From:    Jon Stevens <jstevens@DAVID.WHEATON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gen Vlasov and Prague

George and others,

  Vlasov, in the fall of 1944, had recieved the go ahead from Himmler to
set up the Committee for the Liberation of the Peoples of Russia.  The
major part of the Committe was the Russian Army of LIberation.  Prague was
chosen by Vlasov to issue the proclamation declaring the formation of the
Committee because it was Slavic territory.  Soviet territory would have
been prefered for the proclamation  but no part of the Soviet Union was still
controlled by the Germans.  The Proclamation, known as the Prague
Manifesto, called for the overthrow of Stalin and for the formation of a
government described as 'progressive social democratic' with individual
freedoms.  Vlasov and other Russians involved in the Commitee wanted to be
seen as linking up with the Russian Revolution of 1917 and not just a
mercenary group.  It also contained a veiled appeal to the Americans and
English in the hope that when the Germans were defeated the Allies would
turn against Stalin.

On November 14, 1944, the Committee met in Prague and Vlasov was elected
President. They met at the Hotel Alcron.  The basic idea of the commitee
was to unify all the units of former Soviets fighting in France, Italy,
Yugoslavia, and the Eastern Front.  Thorwald estimates that this
included between 900,00 and 1,000,000 Soviets.  By May, 1945, there were
still 700,000 Soviets listed in the German forces.  Two divisions were to
be formed from gathering the far flung anti-Stalin troops.

On April 13, 1945, the First Vlasov Division was first used in battle.  As
part of Army Group Schorner it was given the task of eliminating a small
Soviet bridgehaed. The attack could not penetrate the defenses of the
Soviets and returned to its training area in Czechoslovakia.

At the beginning of May the Vlasov divisions had been contacted by the  Czech
resistance about liberating the Czech from the remaining Germans.
Thorwald reports Vlasov saying that this would be the wrong course to
take.  He had been in contact with Klecanda, the Czech general who had
fought under Kolchak in the ussian Civil War, who told him most Czechs
would hail the Red Army because Benes, the old Czech president, would be
returning with them.  Vlasov realized that would be delivering the country
to bolshevism but gave the go ahead for the Vlasov divisions to act.

On May 4, the Czech Nationalists concluded a pact with the division to
fight bolshevism and fascism.  On May 7, The division reached Prague.  The
airport was captured and fierce skirmishes were fought with the SS in the
city.  By 5pm the fighting was over.  300 Russians had been killed in the
fighting. The next day a provisional government was formed by the Czechs
dominated by communists.  The enthusiasm for the Vlasov troops quickly
disappeared when Red flags and pictures of Slalin appeared.  The
nationalist Czechs abandoned the Vlasov troops and they quickly withdrew
from the city.  Vlasov was not personaaly involved in the liberation of
Prague.  The Vlasov troops continued their southwesterly  retreat
in hopes of meeting up with American or British forces while being
harassesd by Czech partisans.

During attempted negotiations with Gen. Patch (US I don't know what division)
Vlasov was being escorted by tanks for further surrender negotiations when
the column was blocked by a single Soviet vehicle.  Vlasov was kidnapped
by the Soviets.  The American troops did not interfere although they
heavily outgunned the Soviets.

I reported that Vlasov was executed in 1948.  He was actually hung
in August 1946 along with about a dozen of his staff for treason,
terroristic activities, and espionage.

---from Jurgen Thorwald _The Illusion Soviet Soldiers in Hitler's
Armies_,  1975

One additional book of interest to Vlasov:
    _ Against Stalin and Hitler_  Wilfried Strik-Strikfeldt
    Strikfeldt was a German officer who worked closely with Vlasov untill
    the end. He was a Baltic German and had served in the Imperial Russian
    Army.

 Correction:
Thorwald's book covers all the 'Eastern Volunteers' not just Vlasov

PS-- Staufenburg was one of the originals involved in the project of
raising a Anti-Stalin-anti-bolshevik Russian army.

 Does this help at all George?
 Do you have any info from the Czechs on the liberation of Prague and
 Vlasov?

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 15:29:30 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <kc5318@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Question: re. Patton.

>I was looking through our University's tour brochure and saw that
>they were offering a tour to Normandy for the 50th anniversary of
>D-Day.  In the itenerary, they mentioned a visit to the gravesite
>of Gen. Patton.  Exactly where is this site?  I had always assumed
>that after his death, his body was returned to the states.
>
>Bill
>N93774@vms.cis.pitt.edu


Bill,
     His funeral service was held in Heidelberg, and he is buried alongside
many of his soldiers in Hamm, Luxembourg.
                                             LTC Con Crane
                                             USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 16:49:35 EST
From:    "CARL WERNKE (TCWERNC@VCCSCENT)" <TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET>
Subject: Question About Naval Warfare

 X-To: WWII-L@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu
 TO: MULTIPLE RECIPIENTS OF LIST WWII-L (WWII-L@UBVM.BITNET

 Gudmundur,

 I am sorry that I can't answer your questions listed in your post of 1 Jan 94,
 at 17:37:25. My area of interest is the Imperial Japanese Navy, 1930 to 1945.
 However, the following are excellent sources of references with their mailing
 addresses.

     1.   Naval Historical Center
          901 M. Street SE
          Washington DC  20374-5060

          The main telephone numbers are 202-433-2210 or 202-433-2553

      2.  Dr.Carl Boyd
          Graduate Program Director
          Department of History
          Old Dominion University
          Norfolk VA  23529-0091

      Dr.Boyd was one of my professors in graduate school. He was a
      submariner in the U.S.Navy and is very knowledgeable regarding
      the German and Japanese navies.

      3.   Mr.Norman Polmar
           4302 Dahill Place
           Alexandria  VA  22312

      Mr.Polmar is currently writing a book on torpedoes, and is
      internationally known for his writing on naval weapons systems.



      4.  Messrs. Barry Zerby or Richard von Doenhoff
          Military Reference Branch
          National Archives
          Washington DC

          202-501-5350


      5.  Messrs. John Butler or Richard Boylan
          Military Section
          National Archives
          Suitland MD

          202-501-5671  or  301-763-7410



      Also try Robert Gannon (RHG@PSUVM.PSU.EDU), who is also writing
      a book on torpedoes.

      I am sorry that I can not be more definitive.

      I wish you success in your research.

      CARL WERNKE
      TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 16:36:34 EST5EDT
From:    Jon Kay <JONKAY@MINMET.LAN.MCGILL.CA>
Subject: Waffen-SS

=|>>      Frankly, I'm surprised we didn't just turn all the SS over
=|>> to the Soviets categorically.
=|>
=|>I guess it's because we have this annoying thing called "justice," and
=|>under our system we require that an individual be found guilty of something
=|>before we punish them.  Where war crimes could be attributed to
=|>individuals, we tried the people and punished them.
=|>

As I understand it (correct me if I am wrong) the SS, unlike other
German divisions, was an all-volunteer squad, composed of men who
joined knowing full well that they would be responsible for the most
morally questionable (I hope that euphemism please everyone)
assignments of the war. If this is true (and I am waiting for someone
to correct me if they know this to not the case) then the two
elements of guilt are present: Evil intention and Evil action. I
don't think that men were forced into the SS. If conscripted, could
not soldiers simply enter into the ranks of the rank and file
infantry?
------------------------------------------------
above message from : JONKAY@MINMET.LAN.MCGILL.CA
------------------------------------------------

"How wrong Emily Dickinson was!  Hope is not "the thing with
feathers."  The thing with feathers has turned out to be my nephew.
I must take him to a specialist in Zurich."

                            - Woody Allen (who else?)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 16:39:18 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: David Irving

In Akira's message of 12 Jan 1994 at 0910 CST, he writes:

>      It might be worth to check it again NOW;  For example, the estimated
> number of killed in Tokyo Air Raid has been changing.  To make matters worse,
> Tokyo metropolitan government and Defense Ministry have different ideas,
> last I heard.
>
>      I know, the number is not important.  *silent tribute*
> --
>       Akira Takiguchi  VP, ATSON, Inc.  (a subsidiary of the Asahi Shimbun)

True, too true.  We get so caught up in numbers that are so large as
to be unmanageable cognitively.  Imagine trying to have a
conversation individually with 35,000 people.  If you talked to each
one for an hour, one after the other, non-stop it would take you
1,458 days or almost 4 years.  The numbers are staggering but the
*point* is the tremendous waste wars generate.  Where does the answer
lie?  Dresden was just one raid.  Germany was just one country.
Europe was just one theater, World War Two was just one war....
Orders of magnitude of losses, both in terms of human lives and
physical destruction to cities.  Is there an answer?  I don't have
one.

Thanks, Akira.  I don't mean to preach but it is sometimes necessary
to reflect on the costs to humanity of this topic we so enjoy studying
>from the safe distance of some 50 years.

                   Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 17:25:53 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: Question: re. Patton.

In Bill's message of 12 Jan 1994 at 1335 CST, he writes:

> I was looking through our University's tour brochure and saw that
> they were offering a tour to Normandy for the 50th anniversary of
> D-Day.  In the itenerary, they mentioned a visit to the gravesite
> of Gen. Patton.  Exactly where is this site?  I had always assumed
> that after his death, his body was returned to the states.
>
> Bill
> N93774@vms.cis.pitt.edu

Hi Bill,

Trusting my lousy sense of direction again, I will say that Patton is
buried in Luxembourg in the general area of the Battle of the Bulge
(his most noted achievement).  It was his wish to be buried with his
soldiers.  He once said something to the effect that "the extent of a
nation's influence is marked by the graves of its soldiers".

The exact cite is near the Belgium and German boarders in Luxembourg.
If you visit that area you can't miss it.  Most folks in that area
are quite familiar with it.

If you go, be sure to visit some of the super museums in the area.
Arlon, Bastogne and Diekirch all have fine museums but the towns
around there have German tanks and artillery mounted as monuments
too.  Houffalize has a Panther that rather abruptly confronts you if
you come into town from the west.  It really sends a chill down your
back as you come whizzing around a corner and there is a Pzkfw V with
it's high velocity 75mm pea-shooter pointed at your windshield!  Last
time I was there they took a valve cover off the engine and stuck it
under the gun mantle to prop the gun up.  It now points at a drugstore
across the street :-/

Bastogne has a number of US Sherman tanks and turrets in different
parts of the town.  Of course, there is the wall of remembrance at
Malmedy which lists the names of the soldiers who were massacred
there (and some of the Belgian civilians that disappeared at the same
time too as I recall).

There is also a Tiger II on display in front of a small museum in the
town of La Gleize.  That tank still has ordnance stuck in its armor
that looks like a stone thrown into firm mud.  The shot that I
remember hit the point in the front where both armor plates meet
forming that horizontal line between the two drive sprockets.  It took
another shot to finish it off as the interior is completely cooked.
The ammunition on board apparently went up too because the hull is
actually split over the left track due to the force of the secondary
explosions.  I'd be real surprised if anybody walked away from that
wreck unless they bailed out after the first hit.

Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Jan 1994 00:45:46 GMT
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <gummihe@ISMENNT.IS>
Subject: Re: SS Units.

Mr. Bill Huber


        I read somewhere that Gestapo Muller defected to the Soviets
during the final days of the war, or possibly a while after the may 7th.
He has, as far as I know, never been located anywhere since but was
presumed to be living east of the Iron Curtain from then on. I also
think that he had some kind of socialist past that could explain his
move to the Soviets and not to the South America.
        The Soviets seem to have let at least some SS men live, I read
only a short time ago a newsclip about the finding of KGB documents
about the captured Danish members of the elite Waffen SS unit 'Viking'.
Apparently the Norwegian Government "bought" their formed captured men
home while the Danish just let their own rot in Siberia. I think that
the main number of Viking personnel captured was around Cherkassy in feb
1944 when the 'Viking' has encircled and almost wiped out.

I hope this helps, but I would also like to have more info in this :)

Gudmundur Helgason

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Jan 1994 01:28:58 GMT
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <gummihe@ISMENNT.IS>
Subject: Re: Icelandic casualities in WWII

        Dear mr. Lou Coatney,
        Redarding your qoute about what Icelanders were doing to help
stopping the war in Europe I only knew this myself about a year ago. The
amazing truth is that Iceland suffered among the highest casuality
rating in the whole world at that time (just in the first 7 months of
war we lost 90 seamen, which would account for about 90.000 USN crewmembers
if applied to the U.S. scale).
        The majority of these deaths is mine-related but there were also
some strange incidents that I hesitate to bring up (I dont want any hate
mail :) But we lost at least two full size trawlers that were aparently
sunk with all hands and the British have never explained why. Also we
lost two people-carrying transportes with number of fatalities and
several other attacks were made.

        Again to the Waffen-SS: What I meant was that the 'Viking' unit
has never been linked with war crimes and was truly an elite fighting
unit that is among the best the world has ever had. Majority of the
members were young (naive perhaps) Scandinavian men that were fighting
against the Russian but who used the German vehicle to do it. The
Norwegians "bought" their captives back home after the war while the
Danish did not.

        What was the imprisonment for the Germans in the hands of the
US/UK? 2 years? I think that 10 years was the usual time in Russia which
is ridiculus (and many were much longer than that even some American's
which had slavic sounding names).

Yes, Coatney, My offsprings (if any :) will be "Gudmunds- dottir (girl)
and  son (a son). I promise you that tracing an Icelandic family tree is
no picnic :)


Gudmundur Helgason

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Jan 1994 22:19:28 -0500
From:    Bob Smart <bsmart@SMART.COM>
Subject: Re: Question About Naval Warfare

>
>       2.  Dr.Carl Boyd
>           Graduate Program Director
>           Department of History
>           Old Dominion University
>           Norfolk VA  23529-0091
>
>       Dr.Boyd was one of my professors in graduate school. He was a
>       submariner in the U.S.Navy and is very knowledgeable regarding
>       the German and Japanese navies.

Small world time. Dr Boyd was my undergrad advisor at ODU. One of my favorite
instructors too.  Any chance he is on-line down at ODU?  I have a copy of a
paper he did on Japanese Submarine ops in the Indian Ocean (It's in one of
these boxes around here :-)) Lets see that was 1977-80 If I remember
correctly.  I was stationed at Langley and driving over to ODU 2-4 nights a
week.

Bob Smart (bsmart@smart.com)

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 11 Jan 1994 to 12 Jan 1994
*************************************************

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Status: O

There are 22 messages totalling 902 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. TRV: P-51C Rivet Count
  2. Patton (2)
  3. USAAF 13 JAN 44
  4. Waffen-SS (3)
  5. Icelandic casualities in WWII (2)
  6. The origin and hierarchy of ranks (2)
  7. Bookstores with WWII books
  8. Gehlen, Irving, and Vlasov
  9. SS Units.
 10. Military ranks (2)
 11. Arnhem battle
 12. U-Boot Feldpost
 13. Icel. Trawlers, war declaration etc
 14. Icelandic SS volunteer
 15. Icelandic Trawler losses
 16. Icelandic Trawler losses in WWII

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Jan 1994 00:38:01 -0600
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: TRV: P-51C Rivet Count

Anyone happen to know the number of rivets (or other similar trivia) on
the P-51C Mustang?  (P-51B is close enough).  Any sub-variant, even though
the rivet count on the basic airframe should be the same before modification.

I seem to have some recollection asking this some time ago, but no one seemed
to know the answer.  Just checking if anyone might now... :-)

[Yes, it's for a fund-raising effort for a P-51C...]


--
Robert J. Granvin                                             rjg@stat.umn.edu
University of Minnesota, School of Statistics
         "I'm my father?  I'm my mother?  I'm chipped beef on toast?"

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Jan 1994 10:37:57 CET
From:    "LTC Donnell, Doug" <4atf@PIRMASENS-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Patton

In answer to Bill's posting on Patton's burial site. . .
Patton was severely injured in a freak jeep accident near Mannheim, Germany
in late 1945 (Nov I think).   As I recall, his neck was broken, but nobody
else in the jeep received more than a few bumps and bruises.  Anyway, he
was taken to the Army hospital in Heidelberg where he "hung on" for
several weeks before succumbing to complications (primarily pneumonia)
in December.  He had asked to be buried with his men so ultimately
ended up in the military cemetary in Hamm, Luxembourg (near Luxembourg
city).  His original gravesite was in the ranks with the soldiers (many
of whom died in the "Battle of the Bulge"), but his gravesite proved
to be so popular that a path was being beaten down, so he was quietly
moved to the front of the group where he rests today.  Other than the
location, his grave marker is that of the common soldier.
                             Doug

                                          Doug Donnell
                                          Ruppertsweiler, GE

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Jan 1994 12:33:07 CET
From:    "LTC Donnell, Doug" <4atf@PIRMASENS-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Re: Patton

To update my previous posting re Patton (it always helps to look
things up).  The accident occurred on 9 Dec 1945 and Patton died on
21 Dec 45.  Included in complications causing death was an embolism.
He died quietly in his sleep.
                        Doug

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Jan 1994 07:17:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: USAAF 13 JAN 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
THURSDAY, 13 JANUARY 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-24, Douglas Dauntless
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 6 P-51's hit troop concentrations
at Lalawng Ga and bomb Maran Ga and Shaduzup; 27 P-40's attack a
communication center and dumps along the Kamaing-Mogaung road; and 4 P-51's
and a B-25 pound the airfield and supply area at Myitkyina.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 2 B-25's on a sweep from Hong Kong to Hainan
Island attack 4 large boats, several warehouses, a radio station, and a car
at Fort Bayard, China; 1 of the vessels explodes; 6 P-40's on armed
reconnaissance strafe 4 pack trains of about 15 animals each between Lungling
and Tengchung.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Twentieth Air Force): Major General Kenneth B Wolfe,
Commanding General, arrives at New Delhi, India with the advanced echelon of
XX Bomber Command staff. This is the first important movement of personnel
for Operation MATTERHORN (the plan approved in Apr 44 for the bombing of
Japan by B-29's based in the Calcutta, India area and staging through
advanced fields in the Chengtu, China area).

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 193 B-26's bomb NOBALL (V-weapon)
targets in France. Fighter pilots report being tracked by AA rockets.
  Transfers in England: HQ 100th Fighter Wing from Greenham Common to Ibsley
and HQ 368th Fighter Group and 395th, 396th and 397th Fighter Squadrons to
Greenham Common from the US with P-47's; first mission is 14 Mar.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Italy, B-17's bomb
Centocelle and Guidonia airfields and B-24's hit Perugia airfield. P-38's
provide escort, and P-47's fly top cover for the B-17 missions. The heavy
bombers destroy several fighters in aerial combat.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25's and B-26's bomb
Guidonia, Centocelle, and Ciampino airfields; A-20's strike the town of Atina.
AAF, Royal Air Force (RAF), South African Air Force (SAAF), and Royal
Australian Air Force (RAAF) fighter-bombers hit shipping along the Dalmatian
coast at Sibenik and in the Krka River of Yugoslavia. A-36's hit the town and
railway yards at Isola del Liri, a factory at Colleferro, docks at Formia,
railroad yards at Valmontone, and a railway station SE of Frosinone. P-40's
hit Sant' Elia Fiumerapido, San Biagio, Saracinesa, and a rail and road
junction near Villa Latina.
  86th and 97th Bombardment Squadrons (Light), 47th Bombardment Group
(Light), transfer from Vincenzo Airfield to Vesuvius Airfield, Italy with
A-20's.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): In the Marshall Islands, 9
B-25's from Tarawa Atoll, Gilbert Islands attack harbor shipping at Wotje
Atoll; 21 A-24's from Makin Island, Gilbert Islands dive-bomb dock, barracks,
and storage area on Mille Atoll; some of the 16 escorting P-39's strafe
ground targets, and 10 other P-39's carry out strafing mission over Mille
Atoll.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): HQ Thirteenth Air Force
moves from Espiritu Santo, New Hebrides Islands to Guadalcanal, Solomon
Islands.
  During predawn hours 11 B-25's bomb Tobera, Rapopo, the Wide Bay area, and
coast S of Rapopo, New Britain Island. P-39's strafe Tinputs, Bougainville
Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): HQ V Fighter Command
transfers from Port Moresby to Nadzab, New Guinea and Major General Paul B
Wurtsmith becomes Commanding General, V Fighter Command.
  In New Guinea, 130+ B-24's, B-25's and P-40's attack Alexishafen. B-24's
bomb Gasmata Island off New Britain Island. B-24's and B-25's strike Kaukenau
and Timoeka, New Guinea and score hit on a freighter off Tanimbar Island,
Moluccas Islands.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Jan 1994 09:10:35 EST
From:    "William B. Thacker" <wbt@CBEMF.ATT.COM>
Subject: Waffen-SS

Jon Kay writes:

> As I understand it (correct me if I am wrong) the SS, unlike other
> German divisions, was an all-volunteer squad, composed of men who
> joined knowing full well that they would be responsible for the most
> morally questionable (I hope that euphemism please everyone)
> assignments of the war.

This is incorrect.

The Waffen SS was a very complex and heterogeneous organization, and such
blanket statements (and thus, blanket condemnations) are unreasonable.  One
can look at a unit like 1st SS Panzer "Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler" and find
a crack combat unit, equipped with the best soldiers and equipment that
could be provided.  Did they commit war crimes?  Yes, I'm sure.  Did young
Germans join LAH with the intention or realization that such crimes would
be part of their jobs?  Ridiculous; any more than young Americans join
our army in the hopes that they would get to massacre entire villages of
Vietnamese civilians.

If we examine 3rd SS Panzer, "Totenkopf," the situation changes somewhat.
The division's original cadre was drawn from concentration camp guards who
volunteered for combat duty.   The unit was not composed entirely of such,
but there is more latitude to claim that those who volunteered for
Totenkopf had criminal intent from the start.

Next, consider the various "Friewilligen" (Free-will) SS units.  These were
composed of volunteers from occupied nations.  These troops often got the
worst equipment and in many (I would hazard to say "the great majority") of
cases joined in the desire to defeat communism.  There were probably some
who were zealous pro-Nazis; some hated Jews, and some just wanted a license
to kill and maim.

The point I wish to make is that there is no simple description of "the SS
soldier."  Reality defies the frequent attempts to stereotype them.  They
weren't all Nazis; they weren't even all German.  They weren't all elite.
Some were thugs, others were heroes.  You have to consider them as
individuals and examine the crimes and merits of each.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
(614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              wbt@cbemf.att.com
                      Humpty Dumpty was pushed!

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Jan 1994 09:23:52 -0600
From:    mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: Re: Icelandic casualities in WWII

Gudmundur,

     Thank you for filling us in on Icelandic losses.  You have
much to offer WWII-L, I think.

     Please do tell us about the mysterious loss of 2 Icelandic
trawlers.  We are always keen on what our Perfidious Albionese
brethren have been up to.  Wasn't there a more recent confronta-
tion at sea, as well?  How does Iceland go about declaring war?
(... other than by gathering down on the strand by the drakke
and clapping your swords on your shields, of course.)

Lou Coatney, Western Illinois University Library

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Jan 1994 09:26:37 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: The origin and hierarchy of ranks

In Mr. van Vuren's message of  7 Jan 1994 at 1146 CST, he writes:

> Please enlighten me on the meaning of military ranks. Im not sure I understand
> how the different ranks are related. For instance, which is more senior: a
> leutenant general, brigadier general or major general?

Hi Johannes,

I was hoping somebody would jump in an field this one because I don't
know it in the detail you are asking.  I will post what I do know and
maybe some kind soul will post a correction or two and you will get
what your looking for.

Relation of ranks

US                           German Army          SS (as of 1945)

General of the Army (5 star) Generalfeldmarschal   Reichsfuhrer SS
General (4 star)             Generaloberst         Oberstgruppenfuhrer
Lieutenant General (3 star)  Gereral der Infantrie Obergruppenfuhrer
Major General (2 star)       Generalleutnant       Gruppenfuhrer
Brigadier General (1 star)   Generalmajor          Brigadefuhrer
                                                   Oberfuhrer
Colonel (O-6)                Oberst                Standartenfuhrer
Lieutenant Colonel (O-5)     Oberstleutnant        Obersturmbannfuhrer
Major  (O-4)                 Major                 Sturmbannfuhrer
Captain (O-3)                Hauptmann/Rittmeister Hauptsturmfuhrer
First Lieutenant (O-2)       Oberleutnant          Obersturmfuhrer
Second Lieutenant (O-1)      Leutnant              Untersturmfuhrer

Warrant officers (W1,2,3,4)  Fahnrichjunker
Command Sergeant Major (E-9) Stabsfeldwebel       Standartenoberjunker
Sergeant Major (E-9)
First Sergeant (E-8)         Hauptfeldwebel       Stabsscharfuhrer
Master Sergeant (E-7)
Sergeant First Class (E-6)   Oberfeldwebel        Hauptscharfuhrer
Staff Sergeant (E-5)         Feldwebel            Oberscharfuhrer
Sergeant (E-4)               Unterfeldwebel       Scharfuhrer
Corporal (E-3)               Unteroffizier        Unterscharfuhrer
                             Stabsgefreiter       Rottenfuhrer
                             Obergefreiter
Private First Class (E-2)    Gefreiter            Sturmmann
                             Obergrenadier        Oberschutze
Private (E-1)                Grenadier            Schutze
Private First Class (E-2)


> What are the origins
> and meaning of these terms and double names? Why are there leutenant colenells
> and colenells? Why not leutenant captains as well?

These go back to the time when Europe organized uniformed armies in the 1600s.
The names were reflective of the position or size of the unit involved.  These
derivations I am not sure of.  Our (US) ranks came very much from Great
Britain's system so you might have better luck finding these answers there.

> What is a "full" general?

In the US Army its a 4 star general.

> Why is a field marshall called such?

Got me foxed, we don't have 'em :-)

> Then there are exotic ranks like brigade sergent major and brevet sargent
> major. What do these terms mean and how did they come about?

A brevet rank is a rank that was once held by a man who was reduced in
rank due to no fault of his own.  This became very common (in the US)
after the Civil War when the Union Army dramatically reduced its size
but a large number of officers wished to stay in the army.  Many were
reduced in rank and position to fit in with the much smaller army.  George
A. Custer had attained the rank of Major General during the Civil War
but his title at the time of his death at the Little Big Horn (1876) was:
Lieutenant Colonel (Brevet Major General) George A. Custer.

The US Army does not have a Brigade Sergeant Major, the Brits do so maybe
we can get some of our friends there to chime in on this question.

> Perhaps one of you experts can post an essay here on the origin and evolution
> of military ranks. Would be facinating to read.

I claim no expertise in this area but since nobody else picked up the
gauntlet I figured that a partial answer is better than no answer.

Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Jan 1994 09:38:00 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: Bookstores with WWII books

In Mr. Helgason's message of 12 Jan 1994 at 1232 CST, he writes:

> Good day, would anyone have with him information on a good book store
> that would have a mail order section that would deal with WWII books,
> preferably also out of print books. I need mostly u-boat books but also
> other books about WWII navies and the fighting in general, including Air
> Forces and Armies.

You might send a wants list to:

Volume Control
955 Sandy Lane
Warminster, PA  18974-2643  USA

The owner is Jack Hatter and he deals in military history books both
in and out of print.  His prices are good too.

You can also write for a catalog from:

Battlefield Bookstore
1600 West Lake Street
Minneapolis, MN  55408

or dial 1-800-262-1944
      or  612-823-3711

Cheers, Bill Huber

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Jan 1994 10:50:16 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <kc5318@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: The origin and hierarchy of ranks

>> Then there are exotic ranks like brigade sergent major and brevet sargent
>> major. What do these terms mean and how did they come about?
>
>A brevet rank is a rank that was once held by a man who was reduced in
>rank due to no fault of his own.  This became very common (in the US)
>after the Civil War when the Union Army dramatically reduced its size
>but a large number of officers wished to stay in the army.  Many were
>reduced in rank and position to fit in with the much smaller army.  George
>A. Custer had attained the rank of Major General during the Civil War
>but his title at the time of his death at the Little Big Horn (1876) was:
>Lieutenant Colonel (Brevet Major General) George A. Custer.
>
>
>Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil


Bill,
     Brevet rank was basically an honorary title, awarded for gallant or
meritorious action in time of war. Today we use medals for such recognition.
Brevet rank had none of the authority, precedence, or pay of real rank
theoretically, but the regulations were so vague that controversies arose
throughout the Civil War and many officers, such as Custer, served as brevet
generals and commanded units accordingly.   1700 officers were eventually
breveted as Union generals during the war, and this abuse led to abandonment of
the system.
                                        LTC Con Crane
                                        USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Jan 1994 10:33:15 -0600
From:    Paul Lehman <phlehman@BONGO.CC.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Gehlen, Irving, and Vlasov

Last night I took out Reinhard Gehlen's memoirs for the first time in more
than a decade and noticed that David Irving was the translator. Gehlen
talks about Eastern Troops at length (p. 73-82) and Vlasov in particular
(83-92). I was wondering what the general (or particular) response was to
this book (it was published in 1971 in German and 1972 in English)?




----------
phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu

Postmodernism is not a theory, it's an accident waiting to happen.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Jan 1994 10:35:30 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: SS Units.

In your message of 12 Jan 1994 at 2323 CST, you write:

Hi Gudmundur,

>         I read somewhere that Gestapo Muller defected to the Soviets
> during the final days of the war, or possibly a while after the may 7th.
> He has, as far as I know, never been located anywhere since but was
> presumed to be living east of the Iron Curtain from then on. I also
> think that he had some kind of socialist past that could explain his
> move to the Soviets and not to the South America.

Looks like another research project for me :-)

Thanks for the info on "Wiking".  I'll poke around and see what I can
find on Heinrich Muller.  It seems strange that a long time Nazi
would have early connections with a party that was diametrically
opposed to the platform of his party.  Could Muller have been what
they termed a "beefsteak Nazi" brown on the outside and red on the
inside (brown referring to the brownshirt the Nazis wore in the 1920s
and 30s)?
        Regards, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Jan 1994 11:42:20 -0500
From:    Akira Takiguchi <akira@ATSON.ASAHI-NP.CO.JP>
Subject: Re: Icelandic casualities in WWII

Gudmundur Helgason wrote:
>The
>Norwegians "bought" their captives back home after the war while the
>Danish did not.

     Fate of Waffen-SS volunteers differed from onecountry to another.  A
bad one:

     Dutch Waffen-SS volunteers were no longer Dutch citizens after the
war.  `` They were forced to carry around a passport certifying them as
"resident aliens" without the benefits of Dutch citizenship.''  (_Siegrunen_
No.39)  The cover of passport says "PASPOORT VOOR VREEMDELINGEN".  I don't
know if it is still in effect.

     BTW, there seemed at least one Icelandic volunteer.

     ``The Icelandic volunteer Odiussen ["Egidir"] Grettir, born 7 May 1910,
was a student in Germany when the war broke out.  In 1939/40 he joined the
Waffen-SS and subsequently served either with the "Wiking" or "Nord" Divisions.
He was last seen alive in Soviet captivity at the end of war.'' (_Siegrunen_
No.42)
--
      Akira Takiguchi  VP, ATSON, Inc.  (a subsidiary of the Asahi Shimbun)
             CANAL TOWER  9-3 Nihonbashi-Koamicho Chuo-ku Tokyo 103  Japan
   +81 3 3666 2881(voice) 2882(fax)  EMAIL TO <akira@atson.asahi-np.co.jp>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Jan 1994 11:42:28 -0500
From:    Akira Takiguchi <akira@ATSON.ASAHI-NP.CO.JP>
Subject: Re: Waffen-SS

Bill Thacker wrote:
>The point I wish to make is that there is no simple description of "the SS
>soldier."  Reality defies the frequent attempts to stereotype them.  They
>weren't all Nazis; they weren't even all German.  They weren't all elite.
>Some were thugs, others were heroes.  You have to consider them as
>individuals and examine the crimes and merits of each.

     I would like to add something:  This isn't limited to Waffen-SS, but
to any organization of any countries.  System and individual should be
carefully distinguished when argued.  "Individuals who were in a (large)
system (or a group) all deserved death" is a silly, to say the least, idea.

     Even one human being has a complicated history.  World history is not
just a collection of events.  It is an infinite accumlation of interactions
between human beings from the day 1.  Taking out an event in history to
blame somebody is easy;  but if you are sincere about history, you can't
do it easily.
--
      Akira Takiguchi  VP, ATSON, Inc.  (a subsidiary of the Asahi Shimbun)
             CANAL TOWER  9-3 Nihonbashi-Koamicho Chuo-ku Tokyo 103  Japan
   +81 3 3666 2881(voice) 2882(fax)  EMAIL TO <akira@atson.asahi-np.co.jp>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Jan 1994 13:18:56 -0500
From:    Warren Thompson <THOMPSON@ACAD.LVC.EDU>
Subject: Military ranks

Field marshal (one "l" only) seems to be derived from the 13th-C word
"mareschal" which originally means "horse servant" or "groom." There
is a possibly apocryphal story that the US Army has no such rank because
the first one to be eligible was Gen George C. Marshall ... and having
a "Marshal Marshall" might have been strange.

-- Warren Thompson

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Jan 1994 16:00:24 -0500
From:    "Robert F. Kieran" <rkieran@NIC.NEAR.NET>
Subject: Re: Waffen-SS

        From: Jon Kay <JONKAY@minmet.lan.mcgill.ca>

        As I understand it (correct me if I am wrong) the SS, unlike other
        German divisions, was an all-volunteer squad, composed of men who
        joined knowing full well that they would be responsible for the most
        morally questionable (I hope that euphemism please everyone)
        assignments of the war. If this is true (and I am waiting for someone
        to correct me if they know this to not the case) then the two
        elements of guilt are present: Evil intention and Evil action. I
        don't think that men were forced into the SS. If conscripted, could
        not soldiers simply enter into the ranks of the rank and file
        infantry?
        ------------------------------------------------
        above message from : JONKAY@MINMET.LAN.MCGILL.CA
        ------------------------------------------------

Hello, All!

     I'd just like to elaborate a little on the excellent posts by
Bill Thacker and Akira on this thread.

     The Waffen SS was originally an all volunteer outfit. This lasted
until late 1942 or early 1943, when the manpower shortages really started
being felt. [This is all from my head, you understand;my references are
at home.] These early volunteers were motivated be a number of forces:
some were dedicated anti-communists; some were kids seeking adventure;
some were professsional soldiers of defeated countries, practicing the
only trade they knew; some were opportunists, looking to be part of the
'winning team'; and yes, a few were hardcore Nazis.

     Few joined to commit atrocities. You may search SS recruiting
literature in vain for anything which suggests that joining the Waffen SS
was a license to kill and maim. Please keep in mind that the actions
of the Einsatzkommandos and the activities of Auschwitz were state
secrets at the time. While they may have been an open secret the closer
that you got to the front, they were not boasted about in the recruiting
offices.

     In 1943, things changed. Volunteers for the Waffen SS tended to
dry up. There were several reasons for this: the high Waffen SS casualties
gave some pause; also, volunteers needed the permission of their local
recruiting office before they could be released to the Waffen SS. Since
the local recruiters were under pressure for more and more recruits to
flesh out new divsions and rebuild decimated ones, they were reluctant
to release men for the Waffen SS formations. something had to be done
if Himmler was to continue expanding his army.

     At this time, Gottlob Berger, one of Himmler's aides, came to him
with a suggestion to recruit ethnic Germans, the Volksdeutsche, into the
Waffen SS. [I believe Berger's son-in-law was from the Sudatenland (sp?).]
The Volksdeutsche were people of Germanic descent living in the occupied
lands. They were not liable for service in the Wehrmacht because they were
foreign citizens. This suited Himmler perfectly, and he set about forming
a number of Volksdeutsche formations. Volksdeutsche were drafted into
these formations, and pressure was even put on foreign governmets to
release Volksdeutsche serving in their armies so that they could be
drafted into the Waffen SS.While many Volksdeutsche served within formations
recruited from their native lands, a fair number were sent as replacements
to other Waffen SS divisions. Many of these men spoke no German, and
were not pleased at serving in the Waffen SS.

     Around this time, too, a draft was made on the German manpower pool:
the initial manpower for two new Waffen SS panzer divisions, 9. SS Panzer
Division Hohenstauffen and 10. SS Panzer Division Freundsberg, was DRAFTED
from the German manpower pool. This raised holy Hell on the homefront: many
parents, their ministers and priests, were concerned about their sons being
drafted into the "godless" Waffen SS. [Only certain foreign SS units had
chaplains as part of their establishments.] A compromise was reached,
whereby after completing basic training, each soldier would be given the
opportunity to either transfer to the Wehrmacht or remain with their
Waffen SS division. I think about 5 soldiers opted for transfers. [See Stein
for further details.]

     As to the criminality of the Waffen SS: Bill T. was right when he
said that each individual must be judged on his own merits, and not
according to which unit he belonged to.

     Oh, well. Sorry for the long post. Now it's back to work.

                                                Regards,
                                                Bob Kieran
                                                rkieran@nic.near.net
References:

Thw Waffen SS: Hitler's Elite Guard At War, by George H. Stein

Order Of The Death's Head, by Heinz Hoehne

History and Organisation of the Waffen SS, by Hugh taylor and Roger Bender

Uniforms And History Of The SS, by Andrew Mollo

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Jan 1994 16:21:39 -0500
From:    "Robert F. Kieran" <rkieran@NIC.NEAR.NET>
Subject: Re: Military ranks

        From: Warren Thompson <THOMPSON@acad.lvc.edu>
        Subject: Military ranks
        Date: Thu, 13 Jan 1994 13:18:56 -0500

        Field marshal (one "l" only) seems to be derived from the 13th-C word
        "mareschal" which originally means "horse servant" or "groom." There
        is a possibly apocryphal story that the US Army has no such rank because
        the first one to be eligible was Gen George C. Marshall ... and having
        a "Marshal Marshall" might have been strange.

        -- Warren Thompson

Well, actually, the U.S. kinda/sorta did have a field marshal:

     During World War I, General Pershing was a four star general, but
he was dealing with British and French marshals on a daily basis. Some
in Congress proposed promoting Pershing to Field Marshal, so that he
would be on an equal footing with his Allies. What they actually did,
though, was to promote Pershing to "General Of The Armies" [note plural]
and authorized him to wear 6 stars! Pershing never did add his extra two
stars.

     During World War II, the rank of "General Of The Army" was created
with an insignia of 5 stars. So, you might want to think of these two
ranks as "Lieutenant Field Marshal" and "Field Marshal". ;^)

                                                Regards,
                                                Bob Kieran
                                                rkieran@nic.near.net

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Jan 1994 22:49:41 GMT
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <gummihe@ISMENNT.IS>
Subject: Arnhem battle

        When I read mr. Hubers reply to the question of Pattons grave I
thought about my visit to the Arnhem battle ground at the age of 15 in
1985. I dragged my entire family there much to their distress :) When I
walked  through those forests I find it hard to imagine the deaths that
took place there, it all seems so unreal as I have never seen a real
action. There is a small war museum which has a blown up Panzer III I
think, a "minefield" several artillery weapons and even a submarine! I
sure hope that this sub was not sailed there :)
        Does anyone have the number of casualities at this battle? I
know that 2 SS divisions fought there against the 101. and 82. US
division and the British 'Red Devils' (Not Manchester United :). I saw
somewhere 10.000 as the number. is that correct?

        Also in one of the books on the Bombing of Hamburg there is a
statement that says that the USAF does not wish to bury it's dead in a
foreign or enemies country and that the USAF crew members shot down over
Europe were therefore transported back to the States. Is this true? If
so, did all the Allied forces do this?


        Gudmundur Helgason

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Jan 1994 18:18:06 EST
From:    Ingalls Steven CPT <is8206@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: U-Boot Feldpost

Hello for the first time.

I am interested in knowing whether someone has insight as to how U-boots
received their Feldpost.  All vessels had Feldpost addresses (much like our APO
system with the Department of Defense today), but I've never come across any
source discussing the Feldpost system's service to ships at sea or U-boots.

Any insights are appreciated.

CPT Stephen Ingalls
United States Military Academy
West Point

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Jan 1994 23:25:27 GMT
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <gummihe@ISMENNT.IS>
Subject: Re: Icel. Trawlers, war declaration etc

>
> Gudmundur,
>
>      Thank you for filling us in on Icelandic losses.  You have
> much to offer WWII-L, I think.
>
>      Please do tell us about the mysterious loss of 2 Icelandic
> trawlers.  We are always keen on what our Perfidious Albionese
> brethren have been up to.  Wasn't there a more recent confronta-
> tion at sea, as well?  How does Iceland go about declaring war?
> (... other than by gathering down on the strand by the drakke
> and clapping your swords on your shields, of course.)
>
> Lou Coatney, Western Illinois University Library
>

   Lou,

        I am still looking into the fates of those trawlers that went
down with all hands during the war (I dont want to say something that I
cannot stand by as I was told that there were SHARP people on this list
:) but they both were on a journey to Britain to sell their fish
(Icelandic trawlers made over 2000 journeys during the war to the UK).
These fish transports were vital to the UK as their own fishing fleets
had largely been drafted into the RN for varius duties.

        The only think that I can think of about those "more recent
confrontation" is the two "cod wars" that we won against the British in
1972 and 1976 :) We had only 4 mini-gunboats that were frequently struck
by Britsh frigates and tug boats (manned by harbour criminals). The
Britsh lost due to our resistance and also due to heavy international
pressure from both the NATO and the UN. They suffered amazing damage as
one frigate was heavily damaged after trying to sink our Tyr (commanded
by our best captain) and another frigate was also much damaged.

        I dont think that Iceland has any declaration of war statement
as we dont have any army, no air force and just 2 active gunboats (with
WWI danish guns). We have a contract with the US that says that if we
are attacked then Uncle Sam will come to our aid (I think we are the
only country that has this kind of deal with the US, it was signed in
1948 I think and is for 99 years).

        BTW, We dropped our Shields and Swords in the 14th century
mostly and then the Wiking tradition died and the Danish came and
stepped all over us.

        Gudmundur Helgason

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Jan 1994 23:35:26 GMT
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <gummihe@ISMENNT.IS>
Subject: Re: Icelandic SS volunteer

> Akira Takiguchi writes:
>
>      BTW, there seemed at least one Icelandic volunteer.
>
>      ``The Icelandic volunteer Odiussen ["Egidir"] Grettir, born 7 May 1910,
> was a student in Germany when the war broke out.  In 1939/40 he joined the
> Waffen-SS and subsequently served either with the "Wiking" or "Nord" Divisions.
> He was last seen alive in Soviet captivity at the end of war.'' (_Siegrunen_
> No.42)
> --

        Akira,
        Are you sure about this Waffen SS volunteer? The name is very
strange to me and can it be spelled incorrectly in your post? I can
imagine the name as: Grettir Odinsson (I cant figure out the "Egidir").
If this is true then this is a totally unknown here in Iceland as we
know only about two SS volunteers here. One of them was even the son of
our first President in 1944 and the other was kalled "The Icelandic
Devil" by the Norwegians (They both served in Norway and both came home
after trials in Norway after the war). They were not Waffen-SS men but
some kind of interrogation specialists and the Presidents son ran a
Danish nazi radio station for a while.

        Akira I thank you for this new info (there has NEVER been talked
about an Icelander in Soviet captivity after the war.

What is _Siegrunen?? Is that is SS manual or something?

Gudmundur Helgason

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 01:07:30 GMT
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <gummihe@ISMENNT.IS>
Subject: Icelandic Trawler losses

        Lou,

        You wanted to know about our Trawler losses in WWII. Ok, here is
what I have found out:

        Trawlers that went down in explained incidents:

     Bragi             30. Okt 1940       Rammed near England (ca 15 dead)
     Reykjaborg        10. March 1941     Sunk by U-boat      (ca 15 dead)
     Fjolnir           11. April 1945     Rammed by UK postal ship, 5 dead

        Trawlers that disappeared in the war:

     Gullfoss          27. Feb 1941       (I Dont have location)(ca 15 dead)
     Svidi              2. Dec 1941       (I dont have location)(ca 15 dead)

     Jon Olafsson      He sailed from UK (propably Fleetwood) on the
23rd Okt 1942 towards Iceland on his 17th UK sailing. He was seen the
next day on course and in top shape by an outgoing Icelanic trawler but
was never heard from again. He was 425 tons (to small a target for
U-boats) and 13 men went down with him.

     Max Pemperton     He was on its way to Reykjavik from the north
fishing grounds on the 11. jan 1944 and was heard from at 0730 that
morning and nothing after that. His crew had made 12 UK sailings and was
among the very best we had and the weather was not bad enough to explain
this loss. 29 went down with him.

There is also another ship called Sudin that was twice shot at by
trigger happy Britsh soldiers when aproaching two of our western
harbours and was also heavily attacked by a Focke Wolf Condor aircraft
on the 16th of June 1943 causing loss of 2 lives and all others were
injured my machine guns.

These are just the biggest ship (also two transporters which were sunk by
U-boats with 40 men, women, and children dead.) Also many smaller
vessels went down one way or the other.

Gudmundur Helgason

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 01:29:35 GMT
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <gummihe@ISMENNT.IS>
Subject: Icelandic Trawler losses in WWII

>From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 14 01:07 GMT 1994
Received: by rvik.ismennt.is (16.8/ISnet/11-02-92); Fri, 14 Jan 94 01:07:31 GMT
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 94 1:07:30 GMT
From: MAILER-DAEMON (Mail Delivery Subsystem)
Subject: Returned mail: User unknown

        Lou,

        You wanted to know about our Trawler losses in WWII. Ok, here is
what I have found out:

        Trawlers that went down in explained incidents:

     Bragi             30. Okt 1940       Rammed near England (ca 15 dead)
     Reykjaborg        10. March 1941     Sunk by U-boat      (ca 15 dead)
     Fjolnir           11. April 1945     Rammed by UK postal ship, 5 dead

        Trawlers that disappeared in the war:

     Gullfoss          27. Feb 1941       (I Dont have location)(ca 15 dead)
     Svidi              2. Dec 1941       (I dont have location)(ca 15 dead)

     Jon Olafsson      He sailed from UK (propably Fleetwood) on the
23rd Okt 1942 towards Iceland on his 17th UK sailing. He was seen the
next day on course and in top shape by an outgoing Icelanic trawler but
was never heard from again. He was 425 tons (to small a target for
U-boats) and 13 men went down with him.

     Max Pemperton     He was on its way to Reykjavik from the north
fishing grounds on the 11. jan 1944 and was heard from at 0730 that
morning and nothing after that. His crew had made 12 UK sailings and was
among the very best we had and the weather was not bad enough to explain
this loss. 29 went down with him.

There is also another ship called Sudin that was twice shot at by
trigger happy Britsh soldiers when aproaching two of our western
harbours and was also heavily attacked by a Focke Wolf Condor aircraft
on the 16th of June 1943 causing loss of 2 lives and all others were
injured my machine guns.

These are just the biggest ship (also two transporters which were sunk by
U-boats with 40 men, women, and children dead.) Also many smaller
vessels went down one way or the other.

Gudmundur Helgason


PS: How do I stamp a response to certain person like you or Akira? I
seem to send all my letters to all subscribers in general. I am new to
elm so I dont know to much about this mailing system :)

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 12 Jan 1994 to 13 Jan 1994
*************************************************

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Status: O

There are 32 messages totalling 1040 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Waffen-SS
  2. Bookstores with WWII books
  3. USAAF 14-16 JAN 44
  4. Military ranks (6)
  5. TAC:  use of recon batallions
  6. The origin and hierarchy of ranks
  7. Icelandic SS volunteer
  8. U-Boot Feldpost (2)
  9. Astra's "front" (2)
 10. Command confirmation request (7C3C0A)
 11. re : Waffen SS
 12. MILHST-L Digest - 8 Jan 1994 to 9 Jan 1994
 13. Intercontinental Internet!
 14. AIR: SELECTED GERM
 15. U-Boat warfare survivors (6)
 16. General of the Army (2)
 17. Firing on U-boats (2)
 18. U-boat warnings/risks

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Jan 1994 10:23:00 EST
From:    "W. C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <ERCOUPE@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Waffen-SS

This from WWII IN FLASHBACK by Timothy B. Benford (p. 207):

"The once-touted pure Aryan composition of the Waffen-SS was
only a myth by late 1944.  Approximately 500,000 non-Germans
filled the ranks of no less than 27 of the 40 Waffen-SS divisions.
This meant that over half of the service's strength was from
other areas of Europe.  In addition there were volunteer
Americans and Asians who served, but the largest number of
non-Germans was the nearly 100,000 Russians.  Some other
countries with large national representation in the Waffen-SS
were Holland, 50,000; France,20,000; Finland, 20,000; Norway,
6,000 and Denmark, 6,000."

Bill

N93774@vms.cis.pitt.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 11:14:43 GMT
From:    Johannes van Vuren <VANVUREN_J@SND02.PCR.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Bookstores with WWII books

Write to the following bookshop in London England. They have a LARGE selection
of WW2 books:

        Foyles Bookshop,
        Charing Cross Road,
        London W1.

Johannes van Vuren,
Canterbury.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 07:22:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: USAAF 14-16 JAN 44

              COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
                          14 - 16 JANUARY 1944

FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-24, Douglas Dauntless
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  SBD, Douglas Dauntless (USN)

FRIDAY, 14 JANUARY 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): Bad weather limits operations to fighter
patrols in the Sumprabum, Burma area.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 4 B-25's on a coastal sweep from
Pakhoi to Haiphong, French Indochina bomb a group of buildings on Weichow
Island; 2 B-24's damage 2 vessels near Saint John Island.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 183: 356 of 374 B-17's and
156 of 178 B-24's hit 20 of 21 V-weapon sites in the Pas de Calais area of
France; 19 B-24's hit targets of opportunity; they claim 8-0-1 Luftwaffe
aircraft; 2 B-17's and 1 B-24 are lost, 1 B-24 is damaged beyond repair and
66 B-17's and 9 B-24's are damaged; casualties are 1 KIA, 11 WIA and 31 MIA.
98 P-38's, 504 P-47's and 43 Ninth Air Force P-51's escort; they claim 14-1-0
Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 P-38, 1 P-47 and 1 P-51 are lost, 1 P-47 is damaged
beyond repair and 9 P-47's and 1 P-51 are damaged; casualties are 3 MIA.
  Mission 184: During the evening, 4 B-17's drop 840,000 leaflets on Amiens,
Lille, Cambrai and St. Omer France without loss.
  Mission 185: 2 B-17's are dispatched to Wesel, Germany for a night test
of Oboe Mk II; 1 aircraft aborts and 1 drops 2 tons of high explosive bombs
on the target without loss.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): HQ 71st Fighter Wing transfers from
Aldermaston to Greenham Common, England.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Around 200 B-24's and B-17's
attack the town area and airfield at Mostar, Yugoslavia. P-38's provide
escort throughout the missions, and P-47's join the B-17's at the target and
cover the flight back to base.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25's strike the
Pontecorvo bridge; A-20's offer close support to US Fifth Army forces in the
Monte Trocchio area; P-40's blast Loreto tank repair shops; P-40's and A-36's
hit defenses in the San Giuseppe, Sant' Elia Fiumerapido. and Monte Trocchio
areas; A-36's also attack road and buildings E of Minturno, the town of Isola
del Liri, and the harbor at Anzio.
  Transfers in Italy: HQ 321st Bombardment Group (Medium) and 445th, 446th,
447th and 448th Bombardment Squadrons (Medium) from Amendola to Vincenzo
Airfield with B-25's and 308th Fighter Squadron, 31st Fighter Group, from
Pomigliano to Castel Volturno with P-51's.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): In the Marshall Islands, 12
B-24's, staging through Tarawa Atoll, Gilbert Islands, bomb 3 islands in
Kwajalein Atoll; 3 B-25's from Makin Island, Gilbert Islands fly a mission
against shipping at Wotje Atoll; 2 of the B-25's attack 2 small vessels,
sinking 1 and damaging the other; the other B-25 bombs a runway and building
on the S part of Wotje.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island,
during the night of 13/14 Jan, 15 B-24's bomb Vunakanau and Lakunai
Airfields, Rabaul, Rapopo and Malaguna; just before dawn, 12 B-25's hit Au
and Cape Gazelle and Buka, Buka Island in the Solomon Islands. P-39's join US
Navy (USN) SBD's in bombing Wakunai, Bougainville Island. 70+ Allied fighters
support a strike by 50+ USN dive bombers against shipping in Simpson Harbor
at Rabaul; the fighters claim 27 aircraft shot down.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 50+ B-24's,
B-25's, and P-40's hit the Alexishafen and Erima area. On New Britain Island,
B-24's bomb Cape Busching; B-25's attack targets  of opportunity along the N
coast, and A-20's strike villages along the S coast.

SATURDAY, 15 JANUARY 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): 4 P-40's and a B-25 over N Burma hit a train
at Pinwe.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 2 B-25's on a sea sweep along the French
Indochina coast bomb the Hongay power plant and sink a gunboat in a nearby
cove to the SW; a coal grading building at Campha Port is also bombed. 2
B-25's on a sweep off the SE China coast sink a wooden vessel off Swatow and
damage the lighthouse on Nampana Island. 2 others shoot down a Japanese
bomber N of Chikhom, China.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  MEDITERRANEAN ALLIED AIR FORCE (MAAF): Lieutenant General Ira C Eaker,
USAAF, assumes command of MAAF and Army Air Forces, MTO (AAFMTO), replacing
Air Chief Marshall Sir Arthur Tedder, RAF, and General Carl Spaatz, who
along with Air Vice Marshall Sir Arthur Coningham, RAF, and numerous other
American and British officers have departed for the UK.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Italy, B-24's bomb the Prato
marshalling yard and industrial area, and also hit roads in the area and drop
several bombs on the town of Pistoia. B-17's concentrate on railroad yards
and bridges in the Florence area at Certaldo, Poggibonsi, Montalto di Castro,
Arezzo, Civitavecchia, and near Porto Civitanova and Orvieto, and hit
scattered targets of opportunity. Fighters escort all the missions.
  HQ 306th and 307th Bombardment Wings (Heavy) are activated at Bari, Italy.
  HQ 455th Bombardment Group (Heavy) and 740th, 741st, 742d and 743d
Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy) arrive at San Giovanni, Italy from the US with
B-24's; first mission is 12 Feb.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25's attack the
Foligno railway junction; B-26's bomb bridges at Orvieto. P-40's of the 79th
Fighter Group and Royal Air Force (RAF) 239 Wing hit the San Valentino
station in a joint attack; A-36's and other P-40's, in support of US Fifth
Army forces, hit gun positions and strongpoints, especially at Picinisco and
Atina; P-40's on armed reconnaissance hit the railroad W of Frosinone station
and strafe the Ceccano station and railway cars.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): 9 B-25's from Tarawa Atoll,
Gilbert Islands flying at deck-level bomb and strafe shipping and shore
installations at Maloelap Atoll, Marshall Islands; 2 vessels are hit and the
oil dump, hangars, other buildings, and runways are damaged; 1 B-25 crashes
at sea after being hit by AA fire.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On Bougainville Island in
the Solomon Islands, 24 B-25's, with 60 fighters escorting, pound East Cape;
and P-39's attack barges and trucks at Chabai.
  HQ 347th Fighter Group and it's 339th Fighter Squadron transfer from
Guadalcanal Island to Stirling Island, Treasury Islands with P-38's.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, B-24's and
B-25's pound Uligan Harbor; P-40's, P-47's, and B-25's hit the Madang,
Alexishafen, Erima, and Bogadjim area. Enemy positions along the S coast of
New Britain Island are attacked by B-25's and P-39's.
  499th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 345th Bombardment Group (Medium),
transfers from Port Moresby to Dobodura, New Guinea with B-25's.

SUNDAY, 16 JANUARY 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 8 P-40's attack the town of Pingkai, China and
strafe targets of opportunity in the surrounding valley area.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO): General Dwight D Eisenhower assumes
duties of Supreme Commander, Allied Expeditionary Force (AEF).

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): B-24's attack the Osoppo, Italy
landing ground and the town of Zara, Yugoslavia; they claim 9 Luftwaffe
aircraft; 1 B-24 is lost. B-17's bomb the Messerschmitt factory at
Klagenfurt, Austria and the landing ground at Villaorba, Italy. Escorting
P-38's claim 9 Luftwaffe aircraft; 3 P-38's are lost.
  Transfers in Italy: HQ 97th Bombardment Group (Heavy) and 342d Bombardment
Squadron (Heavy) from Cerignola to Amendola with B-17's; HQ 454th Bombardment
Group (Heavy) and 736th and 737th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy) to San
Giovanni from the US with B-24's, first mission is 8 Feb; and 154th Tactical
Reconnaissance Squadron, 68th Tactical Reconnaissance Group (attached to
Fifteenth Air Force), begins a movement from Oran, Algeria to Bari, Italy
with P-38's.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25's bomb the
marshalling yard and choke points at Terni; B-26's attack the marshalling
yard and bridge at Orte; A-20's bomb the town of Atina; P-40's attack bridges
in the San Giorgio del Sannio area and gun emplacements near Cassino; Sant'
Angelo in Theodice and Picinisco; A-36's hit the railway junction at Cecina,
road and railway S of Siena, and the town areas of Avezzano and Formia.
  Transfers in Italy: HQ 79th Fighter Group and 85th and 86th Fighter
Squadrons from Madna Airfield to Capodichino with P-40's; and 99th Fighter
Squadron, XII Air Support Command (attached to 79th Fighter Group), from
Madna Airfield to Capodichino with P-40's.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): 25 A-24's, 16 P-39's, and 8
P-40's from Makin Island, Gilbert Islands strike Mille Atoll, Marshall
Islands; the A-24's bomb and strafe AA positions and storage areas, the
P-40's bomb and strafe barracks and AA emplacements and the P-39's strafe
runways; 2 P-39's are lost; P-39's sent up on interceptor missions claim 3
Japanese airplanes destroyed over Mille Atoll and Makin Island.
  Transfers:
  28th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, Seventh Air Force, to Kipapa
Airfield, Territory of Hawaii from the US with F-5's.
  431st Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 11th Bombardment Group (Heavy), from
Funafuti Atoll, Ellice Islands to Tarawa Atoll, Gilbert Islands with B-24's.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, the Madang,
Erima, and Bogadjim areas are hit by B-25's, A-20's, and P-40's; P-39's
strafe the area from Sio to Bogadjim; and B-25's bomb the area N from Cape
Croisilles. B-24's and B-25's attack positions near Arawe, New Britain
Island. B-24's carry out a light raid on the harbor of Amboina Island,
Moluccas Islands.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 08:11:48 EST
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Military ranks

On Thu, 13 Jan 1994 13:18:56 -0500 Warren Thompson said:
>Field marshal (one "l" only) seems to be derived from the 13th-C word
>"mareschal" which originally means "horse servant" or "groom." There
>is a possibly apocryphal story that the US Army has no such rank because
>the first one to be eligible was Gen George C. Marshall ... and having
>a "Marshal Marshall" might have been strange.

Actually, Pershing would have been eligible, I'm sure.  In fact, Congress
awarded him an honorary 6th star in the '20s, I believe.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 08:16:41 EST
From:    "William B. Thacker" <wbt@CBEMF.ATT.COM>
Subject: Re: TAC:  use of recon batallions

Charles Reace writes:

> Recalling Hans von Luck's account, it struck me that during his part
> in the Russian campaign ('41-early '42) and in North Africa, the use
> of the Recce Batallions in the panzer divsions was not exactly what I
> would have expected.  During this period he was part of or in command
> of the recon batallion, and it seemed that it usually fought as a
> batallion, making it essentially another major maneuver element for
> the division.

In the Handbook on German Military Forces is a section on German
reconnaissance doctrine.  The Germans recognized various levels of recon,
from strategic all the way down to tactical.  The latter would be the case
you're looking for, where an armored car company or even platoon would be
detached for a local mission.

But during an advance like that into France in 1940 or Russia in 1941 this
sort of reconnaissance wasn't needed; rather, it was done by staff officers
in light cars or motorcycles, because the pace of the advance neither
allowed for nor required such detailed inspection in force.  In these
times, the Panzer recon. BN's were concentrated for long-range work.

In this long-range mission, the BN's would function as a unit.  They were
to find enemy troop dispositions and moreover, the gaps between them, and
to exploit these gaps when possible.  They frequently were required to do
more than just observe; they secured many valuable bridges and other
landmarks by quick action.  And their high mobility made them a valuable,
multi-purpose asset for a division commander, especially when a fast
advance left most of the division exhausted, disorganized, or stuck in
lengthy road columns.

In a defensive role, this same mobility allowed them to cover a large area,
albeit without much ability to fend off a major attack.  This was
particularly valuable to Rommel in the desert.  One of Luck's anecdotes
descrives being assigned to guard the southernmost flank of Panzerarmee
Afrika, a location where no attack was expected but where one could be
devastating.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
(614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              wbt@cbemf.att.com
                      Humpty Dumpty was pushed!

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 08:49:13 EST
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: The origin and hierarchy of ranks

On Fri, 7 Jan 1994 16:36:43 GMT Johannes van Vuren said:
>. . . . Why are there leutenant colenells
>and colenells? Why not leutenant captains as well?

Well, I can answer that one, I think.  In the days when armies were evolving
from little more than paid retainers to truly national organizations, it was
common for individuals to contract with the government to raise regiments
on their own.  Generally gentility, you understand, as it costs quite a bit to
raise a regiment & not many otherwise would have had the means.  Of course,
once raised, the colonel commanding it was in a position to make a nice
piece of change from the deal:  the fee from the crown, of course, but also
disbursing--or *not* disbursing--the regiment's pay, or even claiming more
men on the rolls than there were bodies in the field!  (The SF writer
Pournelle claims this practice as the origin of many of the current day
muster ceremonies/parades:  to actually show the crown's reps that the
regiment had the bodies in the ranks it was supposed to.)

Well, it developed that some colonels didn't particularly want to lead
their regiments in the field, being more businessmen than soldiers, hence
the lieutenant colonel led the regiment in the colonel's absence.  (Probably
a good thing, in many cases (-:  On the other hand, since virtually all
officer commissions were purchased to begin with, maybe it all balanced out
for the worse)

Incidentally, what I've described is more true of Britain than any other
country, but I believe variants were at work throughout Europe.

ken koester
maint2@ers.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 08:37:46 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: Military ranks

In Bob's message of 13 Jan 1994 at 1632 CST, he writes:

> ..... What they actually did,
> though, was to promote Pershing to "General Of The Armies" [note plural]
> and authorized him to wear 6 stars! Pershing never did add his extra two
> stars.
>                              Bob Kieran

Hi Bob,

Zow!  I never heard that.  Do you remember where you saw that?  I
know there is a precedent when George Washington was titled General
of the Armies but no insignia was established at that time (that I am
aware of).  Never heard about Pershing's 6 star promotion though.  He
did wear five though, didn't he?  Seems like I have a double page
poster out of a 1918 _Harpers Weekly_ that shows him with the 5 star
configuration.  I'll have to double check, that alzheimers may be
working on me again....

Historians up!  Con, Bear what's the Army position?

Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 09:43:19 -0500
From:    Akira Takiguchi <akira@ATSON.ASAHI-NP.CO.JP>
Subject: Re: Icelandic SS volunteer

>>      ``The Icelandic volunteer Odiussen ["Egidir"] Grettir, born 7 May 1910,
:
>        Are you sure about this Waffen SS volunteer? The name is very
>strange to me and can it be spelled incorrectly in your post?

     *I* spelled it as it is written, but the source could be wrong.  Thank
you for your information.  I wish you will be able to research more about
this topic (since the birthdate is given, at least one key is there :-).

>What is _Siegrunen?? Is that is SS manual or something?

     _Siegrunen_ is a the only English-language magazine dedicated for the
Waffen-SS, published by the editor Richard Landwehr.  He is heavily pro-SS
(or pro-Nazi) so one must carefully examine the contents, but much infor-
mation is also there.  Quoted by many Waffen-SS related books.
--
      Akira Takiguchi  VP, ATSON, Inc.  (a subsidiary of the Asahi Shimbun)
             CANAL TOWER  9-3 Nihonbashi-Koamicho Chuo-ku Tokyo 103  Japan
   +81 3 3666 2881(voice) 2882(fax)  EMAIL TO <akira@atson.asahi-np.co.jp>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 09:43:22 -0500
From:    Akira Takiguchi <akira@ATSON.ASAHI-NP.CO.JP>
Subject: Re: U-Boot Feldpost

CPT Stephen Ingalls wrote:
>I am interested in knowing whether someone has insight as to how U-boots
>received their Feldpost.  All vessels had Feldpost addresses (much like our APO
>system with the Department of Defense today), but I've never come across any
>source discussing the Feldpost system's service to ships at sea or U-boots.

     I haven't tried to dig up the Feldpost system, but Kannapin's work
are quoted by many authors.  Maybe you want other than his?

o _Die deutsche Feldpost 1939-1945.  Organisation und Lokalisation der
  Feldpostaemter und Feldpostdienststellen_  Kannapin  Biblio Verlag 1987
o _Die deutsche Feldpostuebersicht 1939-1945. Vollstaendiges Verzeichnis der
  Feldpostnummern in numerischer Folge und deren Aufschluesselung_  Kannapin
  Biblio Verlag 1980-1982 (3 volumes)

     The latter is essential when you identify a unit from a field post
number.
--
      Akira Takiguchi  VP, ATSON, Inc.  (a subsidiary of the Asahi Shimbun)
             CANAL TOWER  9-3 Nihonbashi-Koamicho Chuo-ku Tokyo 103  Japan
   +81 3 3666 2881(voice) 2882(fax)  EMAIL TO <akira@atson.asahi-np.co.jp>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 09:21:54 -0600
From:    Astra M Apsitis-1 <apsit001@MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Astra's "front"

Lou--

Didn't mean to start anything...  I wholeheartedly agree that both RFE and
other groups funded by the Free Europe Committee served a valuable
purpose.  My note was meant only as a point of information--it was
irresponsible of me to write "just" in the final statement, and for that I
apologize.  To state the facts--in this case, that it was not public
information that RFE was CIA-funded--is "astronomical hypocrisy"?  I beg
to differ.

astra

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 09:57:58 CST
From:    Jason Bucholtz <bucholtzjason%labasst%Carthage@CNS.CARTHAGE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Command confirmation request (7C3C0A)

ok

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 16:57:00 CET
From:    Peter de Lange <MIMHCB@RULMVS.LEIDENUNIV.NL>
Subject: re : Waffen SS

WAFFEN SS
Good info from Bill,Bill,Akiri and others.
Akiri wrote that ex-Dutch SS are no longer Dutch Citizens, that is
true, but this is not only for ex-SS's but for every one who served
in a strange army.
In 1940 a exception was made by law for them joining an allied army.

The rules for joining the SS changed from unit to unit and changed in
the time, but in 1940 you had to be a "Edelgermaan", that means,
as blond as Hitler, as slim as Goring and as big as Gobbels.
Peter de Lange

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 10 Jan 1994 00:00:06 -0600
From:    Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV@UKANVM.CC.UKANS.EDU>
Subject: MILHST-L Digest - 8 Jan 1994 to 9 Jan 1994

There is one message totalling 25 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Military history in Russia

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 9 Jan 1994 23:33:26 EST
From:    John Sloan <johns426@AOL.COM>
Subject: Military history in Russia

HI everyone,
For two years I have been organizing and leading special tours to military
history sites in Russia and Ukraine. IN July 92 and July 93 we spent several
days staying in Sevastopol and visiting Crimean war sites as well as WWII
sites. Met with directors of military museums and historians.  I have just
been informed that there is to be a special commemoration event 3-6 June at
Sevastopol with a kind of reenactment - at least a camp with peoplewearing
period uniforms. The hosts want to invite Americans, especially reenactors,
people who would wear period uniforms of whatever era. This is something new
for Crimea and Sevastopol since the city has been a "closed city" in the past
and does not have the contacts withthe outside they want. In fact they are
desperate for contacts with the world historical community. If there is any
interest in the Crimean war out there, I would appreciate any responses.  We
have had major reeanctments at Borodino on first Sunday of Sept past 3 years
and I expectthere wil lbe one again. These people of course are much more
experienced. But again, anyone who wants to stay in a camp for 1812 period is
welcome.
John Sloan  at johns426@AOL.COM

 -----------------------------

End of MILHST-L Digest - 8 Jan 1994 to 9 Jan 1994
*************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 10:57:42 -0600
From:    mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: Re: Astra's "front"

Astra,

     Yes, I would say the "just" triggered my concern about
"astronomical hypocrisy."  Thanks for your amplification.

Lou

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 11:02:50 -0600
From:    mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: Intercontinental Internet!

Think about this, folks!  We've got correspondents/researchers --
  and this is just one example -- in Japan and Iceland(!) trading
  interesting info on one errant Icelander who fought/died? in
  Russia in/after?  World War II.

Amazing.  Fascinating.  The global community seems irreversible.

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 12:56:25 EST
From:    Ingalls Steven CPT <is8206@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: U-Boot Feldpost

Mr. Takiguchi,

Thank you for your response.  I have also found a work entitled 'Projekt
Himmelblau', accomplished by and loaned through the German Philatelic Society,
very useful in working with Feldpost items.  I suspect they used
Kannapin's efforts in their summary listing of units and associated Feldpost
numbers.

CPT Stephen A.Ingalls
United States Military Academy
West Point

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 09:57:40 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <kc5318@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Military ranks

>        From: Warren Thompson <THOMPSON@acad.lvc.edu>
>        Subject: Military ranks
>        Date: Thu, 13 Jan 1994 13:18:56 -0500
>
>        Field marshal (one "l" only) seems to be derived from the 13th-C word
>        "mareschal" which originally means "horse servant" or "groom." There
>        is a possibly apocryphal story that the US Army has no such rank becau
se
>        the first one to be eligible was Gen George C. Marshall ... and having
>        a "Marshal Marshall" might have been strange.
>
>        -- Warren Thompson
>
>Well, actually, the U.S. kinda/sorta did have a field marshal:
>
>     During World War I, General Pershing was a four star general, but
>he was dealing with British and French marshals on a daily basis. Some
>in Congress proposed promoting Pershing to Field Marshal, so that he
>would be on an equal footing with his Allies. What they actually did,
>though, was to promote Pershing to "General Of The Armies" [note plural]
>and authorized him to wear 6 stars! Pershing never did add his extra two
>stars.
>
>     During World War II, the rank of "General Of The Army" was created
>with an insignia of 5 stars. So, you might want to think of these two
>ranks as "Lieutenant Field Marshal" and "Field Marshal". ;^)
>
>                                                Regards,
>                                                Bob Kieran
>                                                rkieran@nic.near.net
>

Bob,
     We get that question here about Pershing often, and as best as any of us
can find, the story of the six stars just isn't true.  Vandiver's biography of
Pershing covers the actual issues best, but basically the title General of the
Armies was just a permanent four-star rank.  Pershing never had
any authorization for more stars than that, and there was never any resolution
to give him more.
                                             LTC Con Crane
                                             USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 08:25:44 LCL
From:    jim.brady@CHRYSALIS.ORG
Subject: AIR: SELECTED GERM

To: WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu
 -=> Quoting Wwii-l@ubvm.cc.buffalo.ed to Jim Brady <=-

 Ww> Regarding the story of the 450th bomber squadron:

 Ww> The Germans were quite right in sigle them out for that
 Ww> incident. You dont signal surrender and then attack you captors and
 Ww> expect no retaliations from them. If this were done by many then the
 Ww> act of surrender would mean nothing and surrendering parties would
 Ww> simply be shot down.

I recall in one of Hoyt's U-Boat books that, early in the going off the
Chesapeake coastline, a corvette-sized ship followed up a certain U-boat
sinking by dropping depth charges set shallow on the sailors who had escaped
the sinking. Can't remember the vessels, but seem to remember there were no
survivors of the explosions. The book did not deal with any repercussions from
that particular episode, or whether word of it ever reached Germany during
WWII. But didn't Deonitz order no-prisoners after allied aircraft strafed a sub
that was taking on survivors of the troop ship it torpedoed? Think it was in
the South Atlantic ??
                             Jim
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 12:20:22 -0600
From:    mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: U-Boat warfare survivors

Jim,

     I believe it was the Indian Ocean wherein the Germans were
strafed while attempting to rescue survivors.

     Monsarrat, in his novel THE CRUEL SEA, has the corvette
captain depth-bombing freighter survivors (under whom a
positive asdic contact has been made).

     Maybe someone else can tell us what Royal Navy policy was
concerning survivors vs. attacking.

     I have read of U-Boats withholding their torpedofire, on
occasion, to allow rescues.  We certainly weren't as humane in
the South Pacific, but that was very much a different war.

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 23:37:57 +0700
From:    "Peter E. Beal" <beal@NWG.NECTEC.OR.TH>
Subject: Re: Military ranks

On Fri, 14 Jan 1994, Ken Koester wrote:

> On Thu, 13 Jan 1994 13:18:56 -0500 Warren Thompson said:
> >Field marshal (one "l" only) seems to be derived from the 13th-C word
> >"mareschal" which originally means "horse servant" or "groom." There
> >is a possibly apocryphal story that the US Army has no such rank because
> >the first one to be eligible was Gen George C. Marshall ... and having
> >a "Marshal Marshall" might have been strange.
>
> Actually, Pershing would have been eligible, I'm sure.  In fact, Congress
> awarded him an honorary 6th star in the '20s, I believe.
>
The U.S. Army has two ranks (albeit rarely used) higher than General.
One is "General of the Armies", the only holder of which was Pershing.
The other is "General of the Army".  I think only Eisenhower and Bradley
and perhaps Marshall held this rank.  This are five star ranks.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 13:58:22 EST
From:    Ron Babuka <WRB@CORNELLC.BITNET>
Subject: Re: U-Boat warfare survivors

There was also an RAF policy of downing Luftwaffe Air/Sea Rescue
aircraft that were painted white with large Red Cross's on them.
Very quicky the Germans stopped making the rescue aircraft such
bright and inviting color schemes.

For a while the RAF left these aircraft alone, but then switched to
attacking them.  I do not recall what changed the British attitude in
that regardless of the white paint and red cross's that these
aircraft were "military aircraft on military missions" thus open
target.  When examined in conjunction to their own deficiency in Air/Sea
rescue in the early days of the Battle of Britain - it perhaps starts
to make a little more sense.

Ron Babuka

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 14:14:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: General of the Army

Henry H "Hap" Arnold, Commanding General Army Air Forces, also made
5-star rank in WWII.

Wasn't the equivalent rank in the Navy Admiral of the Fleet?

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 15:03:55 EST
From:    Charles Reace <creace@ISD.CSC.COM>
Subject: Re: U-Boat warfare survivors

[Lou Coatney writes:]
>      I have read of U-Boats withholding their torpedofire, on
> occasion, to allow rescues.  We certainly weren't as humane in
> the South Pacific, but that was very much a different war.

Lou, at the risk of starting a philosophical argument that belongs on
some other list, I have trouble reconciling "humane" behavior with war.
Once you've committed yourself to fighting a war, you've already
agreed to break at least one of the 10 Commandments.  It does not
say "Thou shalt not kill except in time of war if the person is an
enemy soldier."

If I decide to go to war, it makes sense to take prisoners when the
chance arises, so that the enemy will be more willing to surrender the
next time as opposed to fighting to the last man.  And if I take
prisoners myself, then it's more likely my enemy will accept my
surrender should the occaision arise.  But I don't see why I'm expected
to accept an enemy soldier's surrender in the same war when I'm
bombing civilians whom I haven't even given a chance to surrender.

And why not shoot the enemy pilot in his parachute who's bailed out
behind his own lines?  If you don't, he may be back up flying again
tomorrow.  Trained pilots are much harder to produce than airplanes.
Sure he's helpless, but so is the poor draftee cowering in his foxhole
when a 105mm HE round scores a direct hit in the middle of a barage.

Pesonally, if I were a sub skipper and I thought I could get away
with it, I *would* warn a civilian ship and give the crew/passengers
a chance to abandon ship.  But if I thought there was any possibility
they would radio a message to someone who could respond fast enough
to find me and sink me, then chivalry would go out the door in favor
of my crew's safety.

Oh well, I never could resist playing the Devil's Advocate.  B^)

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <creace@isd.csc.com>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 15:00:11 EST
From:    Ron Babuka <WRB@CORNELLC.BITNET>
Subject: Re: U-Boat warfare survivors

As a side note to Lou's comments:

>> And why not shoot the enemy pilot in his parachute who's bailed out
>> behind his own lines?  If you don't, he may be back up flying again
>> tomorrow.  Trained pilots are much harder to produce than airplanes.

I have read in several books a story relating to Francis Grabeski (I
hope I spelled his name correctly) the top American Ace of the European
Theater.  Francis recalled getting into a dogfight with a FW-190 while
escorting a bomber mission over Europe.  This chap was giving Grabeski
all kinds of fits in his FW-190 and at a couple of points almost nailed
Grabeski.  After a long duke-out Grabeski mortally wounded the Focke-Wolf,
and the German pilot dumped his canopy and got one of his legs over the
side.  Upon seeing this, Grabeski decided that if this pilot was ever
able to get back on the ground again, that he was going to end up killing
more Allied pilot.  Grabeski felt that he had no option but to "knock"
the German pilot back into the cockpit with another burst from his .50
machine guns.

Ron Babuka

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 15:28:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Firing on U-boats

RE: The Brits shooting at surfaced U-boats

The way I heard the story was that early in the war, most if not
all U-boat commanders would give the crew of a merchant vessel a
chance to abandon ship before it was sunk.  However, the British
Admiralty issued orders that merchant vessels were to immediately
radio the position of any U-boats that were encountered.  The
U-boat commanders took a dim view of having their position
advertised to the world but some of them continued to let the crew
abandon ship before sinking it but I believe some U-boats were
attacked based upon the radio message so the U-boat commanders began
sinking merchant vessels without warning.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 12:24:03 EST
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <hb9388@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Military ranks

To Bill Huber, et al:

Yes, General Pershing was given the title General of the Armies.
This was to put him on a par with the field marshals in the
British and French armies.

However, I can't find anywhere any info about a 6 star rank.

Bear

>In Bob's message of 13 Jan 1994 at 1632 CST, he writes:
>
>> ..... What they actually did,
>> though, was to promote Pershing to "General Of The Armies" [note plural]
>> and authorized him to wear 6 stars! Pershing never did add his extra two
>> stars.
>>                              Bob Kieran
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>Zow!  I never heard that.  Do you remember where you saw that?  I
>know there is a precedent when George Washington was titled General
>of the Armies but no insignia was established at that time (that I am
>aware of).  Never heard about Pershing's 6 star promotion though.  He
>did wear five though, didn't he?  Seems like I have a double page
>poster out of a 1918 _Harpers Weekly_ that shows him with the 5 star
>configuration.  I'll have to double check, that alzheimers may be
>working on me again....
>
>Historians up!  Con, Bear what's the Army position?
>
>Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 21:46:02 GMT
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <gummihe@ISMENNT.IS>
Subject: U-boat warnings/risks

        Hi to all,
        I would like to point out that most if not all commanders of
German u-boats early in the war issued a warning before sinking merchant
vessels and also used the  88mm cannon when at all possible to safe
their own precius torpedoes (only 14 onboard).
        U.506, U.507 and U.156 put themselves into great risk when they
attempted to rescue the survivors of U.156 victim by mistake 'RMS
Laconia' the boats were attacked by USA bomber even if all the boats
were flying the Red Cross. In the end around 1000 passengers and Italian
POWs were rescued by French Vichy ships but the U-boats had in the end
to dump the survivors in order to safe themselves. It was after that
incident that Donitz issued the Laconia-order which ordered the
commander not to pick up survivors.
        Gunnar Lassen on U.160 (a truly great commander) even sent
Winston Churchill a personal radio message and asked him to come and
safe they survivors of one of his victims! He gave up his exact position
to speed the recovery of the survivors (he could not take them himself).

Gudmundur Helgason

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 13:59:10 -0800
From:    Jim Benn <jrb@AGAVIION.AGFX.COM>
Subject: Re: General of the Army

Didn't Douglas MacArthur have some kind of "Field Marshal" rank from the
Phillipine government just prior to WWII? As I recall he was in some kind
of detached service/retirement from the US Army; did this rank carry with
him back into active service?

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 16:51:53 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: Re: Military ranks

In reply to the mail from <beal@NWG.NECTEC.OR.TH>...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>Date:         Fri, 14 Jan 1994 23:37:57 +0700
>Reply-To: World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
>Sender: World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
>From: "Peter E. Beal" <beal@NWG.NECTEC.OR.TH>
>Subject:      Re: Military ranks
>X-To:         World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
>To: Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
>In-Reply-To:  <9401141314.AA24163@nwg.nectec.or.th>
>
>On Fri, 14 Jan 1994, Ken Koester wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 13 Jan 1994 13:18:56 -0500 Warren Thompson said:
>> >Field marshal (one "l" only) seems to be derived from the 13th-C word
>> >"mareschal" which originally means "horse servant" or "groom." There
>> >is a possibly apocryphal story that the US Army has no such rank because
>> >the first one to be eligible was Gen George C. Marshall ... and having
>> >a "Marshal Marshall" might have been strange.
>>
>> Actually, Pershing would have been eligible, I'm sure.  In fact, Congress
>> awarded him an honorary 6th star in the '20s, I believe.
>>
>The U.S. Army has two ranks (albeit rarely used) higher than General.
>One is "General of the Armies", the only holder of which was Pershing.
>The other is "General of the Army".  I think only Eisenhower and Bradley
>and perhaps Marshall held this rank.  This are five star ranks.
>
FYI
Marshall, Eisenhower, MacArthur, Bradley and Arnold all held the
five-star General of the Army rank.

I believe that King, Nimitz, Leahy, and possibly Halsey held a
five-star Admiral's rank.  I don't the title that went with the
rank, though.
Jim


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-8760
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-8760

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 16:54:21 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: U-Boat warfare survivors

In Charles' message of 14 Jan 1994 at 1502 CST, he writes:

> Pesonally, if I were a sub skipper and I thought I could get away
> with it, I *would* warn a civilian ship and give the crew/passengers
> a chance to abandon ship.  But if I thought there was any possibility
> they would radio a message to someone who could respond fast enough
> to find me and sink me, then chivalry would go out the door in favor
> of my crew's safety.

Hi Charles,

Remember too, the British "Q-ships" of the First World War.  They
were armed freighters with false deck houses that would drop when the
U-boat would surface to sink the ship with its deck gun.  The U-boat
would surface and signal the lone freighter that they were about to
be sunk.  "Panic Parties" would drop life boats and make it look like
the crew was preparing to abandon when the deck houses would drop and
hidden deck guns would open up on the U-boat.  At that time it was
common for an officer from the U-boat to retrieve the log from the
ship about to be sunk.  The Q-ships ended that.

Torpedoes used to be very expensive (still are I guess) but in WWI
the Germans would use the deck gun when they could.  Again, Q-ships
changed that policy.

Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 16:20:23 EST
From:    Ingalls Steven CPT <is8206@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: U-Boat warfare survivors

Sorry I missed the original posting about shooting pilots who've bailed out of
their crippled fighters.

However, while a practical consideration, moral behavior and the Laws of
Warfare define the pilot of a crippled aircraft getting into parachute as a
non-combatant.  As your discussion rightfully points out, that status is
certainly to change once rejoining his unit.  However, I believe in the
strictest sense to have engaged pilots in parachutes is a war crime.

I apologize if this has nothing to do with the original question/comment.
Simply thought it was relevant.

CPT Stephen Ingalls
United States Military Academy
West Point

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 15:10:59 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Firing on U-boats

Ubboats sinking Allied merchant ships without warning was also more
efficient....

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 13 Jan 1994 to 14 Jan 1994
*************************************************

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There are 4 messages totalling 170 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. WWII books
  2. General of the Army
  3. Icelandic casualities in WWII
  4. WEAP: DR.BOYD--GERMAN SUBMARINES

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 23:39:16 -0600
From:    Jon Stevens <jstevens@DAVID.WHEATON.EDU>
Subject: Re: WWII books

I just places an order from the Battery Press for a couple of officail
Marine Corps monographs on the South Pacific amd some other stuff. They
have reprinted quite a few books that have been out of print for quite a
few years but mostly on the US Marine Corps. My father was a WWII USMC
vet and bought quite a few books from them.  They also have quite a bit on
Naval History.

The Battery Press
PO Box 3107
Uptown Station
Nashville , TN 37219

One other is the:

 East Front Military
2507 E. Randolph Ave.
Dept. SE
Alexandria, Va 22301

This one is somewhat expensive but seems to a wide variety of new and out
of print books on , what else, the German military.

A good place to consult for WWII booksellers, mostly mailorder, is the
magazine, WORLD WAR II.

Jon Stevens

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 15 Jan 1994 17:50:18 +0700
From:    "Peter E. Beal" <beal@NWG.NECTEC.OR.TH>
Subject: Re: General of the Army

On Fri, 14 Jan 1994, Jim Benn wrote:

> Didn't Douglas MacArthur have some kind of "Field Marshal" rank from the
> Phillipine government just prior to WWII? As I recall he was in some kind
> of detached service/retirement from the US Army; did this rank carry with
> him back into active service?
>
Yes. MacAthur was a (in fact, the) Field Marshal of the Phillipine Army.
I think he had retired from active service in the U.S. Army but was, of
course, called back thereto when the ware started.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 15 Jan 1994 16:25:00 CET
From:    Fred van Wetten <CRIPFW@RULMVS.LEIDENUNIV.NL>
Subject: Re: Icelandic casualities in WWII

> Gudmundur Helgason wrote:
> >The
> >Norwegians "bought" their captives back home after the war while the
> >Danish did not.
>
>      Fate of Waffen-SS volunteers differed from onecountry to another.  A
> bad one:
>
>      Dutch Waffen-SS volunteers were no longer Dutch citizens after the
> war.  `` They were forced to carry around a passport certifying them as
> "resident aliens" without the benefits of Dutch citizenship.''  (_Siegrunen_
> No.39)  The cover of passport says "PASPOORT VOOR VREEMDELINGEN".  I don't
> know if it is still in effect.

  Every Dutchman who joins the army of an other country loses by that
  act his citizenschip. It was then, and it still counts today.
  So, for example joining the Foreign Legion, makes you 'Stateless' by
  Dutch law.

  I have known a Dutch Leuitenant, Martin Ludemann, who fought in de 5
  days in May '40 and decided on his own, after the Dutch capitulation,
  to make it for England. He joint the British Army and became the youn-
  gest Major in the Italian campaigne. Dutch units were created, which
  were integrated in the British Army, but he didn't consider to join
  them. (Details: His father was a German violin player, who fled Nazi
  Germany for Holland and his mother was Norwegian. So this early Euro-
  pian, didn't realy consider joining the Dutch forces in England).
  After the war, he returned to Holland and by his big surprise, he re-
  cieved an 'invitation' to appear for a military court.
  He was accused of being illegaly absent in may '40, when he fled for
  England and that he joined a foreign army. He pled that Holland had
  fallen and that he as an officer couldn't leave his men he commanded
  in Italy to join a unit which was still 'under construction'. The
  court softenned by the outcome of the war, spoke him free of the char-
  ges; he retained his citizenship and was offered a commision as a
  captain in the Dutch army.
  Needless to say that this Europian went his own way.
  Yes, also in Holland, we do know how to apprieciate those men who did
  the job.

>
>      BTW, there seemed at least one Icelandic volunteer.
>
>      ``The Icelandic volunteer Odiussen ["Egidir"] Grettir, born 7 May 1910,
> was a student in Germany when the war broke out.  In 1939/40 he joined the
> Waffen-SS and subsequently served either with the "Wiking" or "Nord" Divisions
> He was last seen alive in Soviet captivity at the end of war.'' (_Siegrunen_
> No.42)
> --
>       Akira Takiguchi  VP, ATSON, Inc.  (a subsidiary of the Asahi Shimbun)
>              CANAL TOWER  9-3 Nihonbashi-Koamicho Chuo-ku Tokyo 103  Japan
>    +81 3 3666 2881(voice) 2882(fax)  EMAIL TO <akira@atson.asahi-np.co.jp>


Fred van Wetten           Netadress:CRIPFW@rulmvs.LeidenUniv.nl
CRI, instituut voor telecommunicatie en computerdienstverlening
RijksUniversiteit Leiden, PO BOX 9512, 2300 RA LEIDEN, The Netherlands
Tel: +31 (0)71 276933     Fax: +31 (0)71 276967

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 15 Jan 1994 16:41:14 EST
From:    "CARL WERNKE (TCWERNC@VCCSCENT)" <TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET>
Subject: Re: WEAP: DR.BOYD--GERMAN SUBMARINES

 X-To: WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu

 To:MULTIPLE RECIPIENTS OF LIST WWII-L (WWII-L@UBVM.BITNET)

 Gudmundur,

 Your post 10 Jan 1994, at 17:37:25 stated
 >Can you imagine where I could get the following:
 >A complete list of all U-boat commanders in WWII
 >A complete list of all U-boat operations (dates of sailing etc)

 Dr.Carl Boyd
 Graduate Program Director
 Department of History
 Old Dominion University---recommended the following sources of information.--


      1. THE U-BOAT: THE EVOLUTION AND TECHNICAL HISTORY OF GERMAN SUBMARINES,
         Author: Eberhard Rossler, Published by The United States Naval
         Institute, MD , dated 1989.

      2. AXIS SUBMARINE LOSSES, 1939-1945, Author: Jurgen Rohwer, Published by
         USNI, Dated 1983.

      3. U BOAT IN THE ATLANTIC,1939-1045, Published by HM Stationery Dept.
         London, England  1990. (Incomplete address).

      4. My recommendation is: U-BOAT ACE: THE STORY OF Wolfgang Luth,
         Author: Jordan Vause, Published by USNI, Date, Late 1980s.

  I hope that this material can be helpful in your research.

  Carl Wernke
  TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET

  =============================================================================

  Bob Smart,

  On 14 Jan I had a very enjoyable talk with Dr.Boyd. He gave his best
  regards to you. However, he is not on-line at ODU.

  Hope to hear from you again, Bob.

  Carl

  CARL WERNKE
  TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 14 Jan 1994 to 15 Jan 1994
*************************************************

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Status: O

There are 8 messages totalling 417 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Fate of Dutch Waffen-SS volunteers
  2. Military ranks
  3. Patton's grave.
  4. Waffen-SS
  5. American Volunteers in Finnish-Russian War
  6. ADMIN: Intro to WWII-L (no change since last posting)
  7. Cigarettes
  8. WWII Books

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 16 Jan 1994 09:30:29 -0500
From:    Akira Takiguchi <akira@ATSON.ASAHI-NP.CO.JP>
Subject: Fate of Dutch Waffen-SS volunteers

     Thanks to Peter and Fred I am now enlightened about Dutch law that
says anyone who served foreign army will lose citizenship.  Considering
the location of country I can understand the necessity for that law.  I
even suspect other Europian countries might have similar laws.  Anyone?

     I feel _Siegrunen_'s editorial was written after "Irving's way"
(as Bill Huber would say) - it had given me the impression that only SS
volunteers were suffering.

     Still, many questions haunts me.  There were thousands of volunteers.
Did they all knowingly joined the Waffen-SS?  Was the law effective after
the capitulation (i.e. Nazi era)?  Wasn't conscription involved?  Anyone
recovered citizenship?
--
      Akira Takiguchi  VP, ATSON, Inc.  (a subsidiary of the Asahi Shimbun)
             CANAL TOWER  9-3 Nihonbashi-Koamicho Chuo-ku Tokyo 103  Japan
   +81 3 3666 2881(voice) 2882(fax)  EMAIL TO <akira@atson.asahi-np.co.jp>

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 16 Jan 1994 11:55:57 -0600
From:    "Richard H. Miller" <rick@CRICK.SSCTR.BCM.TMC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Military ranks

Robert F. Kieran writes:

        During World War I, General Pershing was a four star general, but
        he was dealing with British and French marshals on a daily basis.
Some
        in Congress proposed promoting Pershing to Field Marshal, so that he
        would be on an equal footing with his Allies. What they actually did,
        though, was to promote Pershing to "General Of The Armies" [note
                plural and authorized him to wear 6 stars! Pershing never did
add his                 extra two stars.


Almost correct; Pershing was given the rank of "General of the Armies" and
the
authority to design his own insignia. He never chose to do so and always wore
the four stars. Because the five star rank was explicitly made junior to his
many people have assumed it was a six star rank but there was actually no
rank insignia ever designed for this.

(This rank was another reason why General Marshal was reluctant to assume the
new 5 star rank; he considered Pershing to be his mentor and did not want to
ever rank him; I believe the enabling legislation made Persjings rank the
senior)

--
Richard H. Miller                 Email: rick@bcm.tmc.edu
Asst. Dir. for Technical Support  Voice: (713)798-3532
Baylor College of Medicine        US Mail: One Baylor Plaza, 302H
                                           Houston, Texas 77030

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 16 Jan 1994 15:31:04 -0500
From:    David Rising <drising@IO.ORG>
Subject: Re: Patton's grave.

Bill, I had the fortune to visit Patton's grave a couple of years ago in
my own, self guided, tour of European battlefields.  It is located in
Luxembourg, in a cemetary for American servicemen who died in the battle
of the Bulge.  I'll try to look up the exact location for you (it's been
a few years, but don't worry, it's a small country) -it's somewhere near
Luxembourg city.  BTW, I seem to recall that he's buried there  on  his
own request- something about being buried with the men who served under
him. I'll get back to you,
David Rising (drising@io.org)

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 16 Jan 1994 15:48:32 -0500
From:    David Rising <drising@IO.ORG>
Subject: Re: Waffen-SS

On Wed, 12 Jan 1994, Jon Kay wrote:

> =|>>      Frankly, I'm surprised we didn't just turn all the SS over
> =|>> to the Soviets categorically.
> =|>
> =|>I guess it's because we have this annoying thing called "justice," and
> =|>under our system we require that an individual be found guilty of something
> =|>before we punish them.  Where war crimes could be attributed to
> =|>individuals, we tried the people and punished them.
> =|>
>
> As I understand it (correct me if I am wrong) the SS, unlike other
> German divisions, was an all-volunteer squad, composed of men who
> joined knowing full well that they would be responsible for the most
> morally questionable (I hope that euphemism please everyone)
> assignments of the war. If this is true (and I am waiting for someone
> to correct me if they know this to not the case) then the two
> elements of guilt are present: Evil intention and Evil action. I
> don't think that men were forced into the SS. If conscripted, could
> not soldiers simply enter into the ranks of the rank and file
> infantry?
> ------------------------------------------------
> above message from : JONKAY@MINMET.LAN.MCGILL.CA
> ------------------------------------------------
>
> "How wrong Emily Dickinson was!  Hope is not "the thing with
> feathers."  The thing with feathers has turned out to be my nephew.
> I must take him to a specialist in Zurich."
>
>                             - Woody Allen (who else?)
>
There are elements of truth to this assumption, but, from what I've read,
you're not entirely correct.  First of all, many believed the SS to be,
and indeed for a time it was only an elite fighting force (who were, of
course of the same ideological beliefs).  That being the case, many then
would have joined out of a sense of pride/nationalism/duty etc., & not
necessarily "evil intent".  Later, however, the SS became less of an
elite fighting group, and did attract a large number of "evil" people.
Another thing, just out of interest, is that during Aktion Reinhard, the
period of time when the Germans 1st began rounding up Jews and Poles and
concentrating them (in ghettos) many of the       einsatzgruppen were
made up of auxillery police from German cities rather than from the SS.
These men were responsible for the murders of hundreds of thousands of
people from 1941-42.  I guess the point is that not all who were in the
SS were evil and not all who were not in the SS were good.
David Rising (drising@io.org)

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 16 Jan 1994 21:50:14 GMT
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <gummihe@ISMENNT.IS>
Subject: American Volunteers in Finnish-Russian War

        I have read somewhere that there were American volunteers i the
Finnish armed forces when the Russian attacked them early in the war. If
so what happened to them? I also have seen somewhere that some of them
had no choice but to enlist into Wehrmacht. Is this true?

Gudmundur Helgason                                  <gummihe@rvik.ismennt.is>

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 16 Jan 1994 18:37:43 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: ADMIN: Intro to WWII-L (no change since last posting)

Revision: 1 November 93
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Welcome to WWII-L, a list dedicated to the discussion of the
greatest cataclysm of the Twentieth century (and, hopefully,
the last.)

I'm Larry W. Jewell and I'll be listowner until further
notice.  I can be reached at the addresses listed at the end
of this notice.

WWII-L will be self-moderated.  This means that each of you
will always try to remember that there is a human being on the
other end of the net, and the "Golden Rule" is rule number
one!

Our subject is HUGE and not everyone will be interested in
everything that moves over the mails.  To ease YOUR burden of
sorting the items you wish to read I offer the following
"flags".  They will go FIRST on the Subject: line.
(This section will be enforced when traffic get heavy, otherwise
members may use their discretion on the matter.)

EDU (For discussion of aspects of teaching about the war.)
SCI (for discussion of science and technology, may overlap
     with WEAP)
WEAP ( for talk of weapons, useage of weapons, and "My favorite
       weapon.")
POL (Political discussions, such as the effects of the Yalta
     Conference)
TAC (Tactical and Strategic discussions, "Island hopping vs.
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REF (References, review, where-to-buy, etc.)
INF (Tables of Organization, raw data, chronologies, etc.)
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GEN ("Let's find a category for this.")
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      recreations, museum information, where to buy badges and hats, etc.)
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WANT (For trading, suggestion on stores worth visting, etc.  Please offer to
      send more information via e-mail rather than posting an entire inventory.)
MEDIA (To review and report tv and other media "events".)
NEWS (For reproductions of newspaper, magazine, and other articles from the
      period under discussion.  Present day news items should be post under
      "MEDIA".
ARC  (For discussion of on-line resources and materials, such as those avail-
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      should be posted under this flag.))
TROUBLE (Error messages from a site or address. Last chance to contact me
      before I'm forced to delete you! Anyone who knows the member in question
      is urged to contact them and have the problem corrected.)

Some items will overlap, of course, but the main thrust of the item
should be clear.  Try not to ask so many questions in a single post
that the flags become inoperative.  Several short posts are preferable
to one long one, and are easier to answer and quote.  You should change
the flag in the subject line if the thread takes a new direction.  If
you reply to a posting which didn't have a flag, please insert the proper
flag.  (This can help categorize the subject for people who have to down-
load the mail via slow modem, one of the main reasons for having the flags
at all.)

You'll be hearing from me if you "forget" this system.  I also
solicit additions to this list.  Please keep this table handy
until you're comfortable with the flags.

Abbreviations are another subject that needs attention.  While many of us
will be comfortable with the most arcane and obscure acronyms and abbreviations
many of the readers of this list are here to learn more about the war and
will have trouble decyphering your articles if they are packed with "LAH",
"CinCUS", "StuG III", etc.  PLEASE expand these terms at least once in your
post.  Similarly, since this list is primarily in English, could we please
translate the "foreign" terms?  A long discussion on "Kido Butai" or "Wacht-
am-Rhine" without an explantion of the terms isn't polite if we exclude part
of the list because they have no clue as to the meaning of the terms.


Now we come to the REALLY hard part.

Some subjects have been beaten to death, and I KNOW that they'll
come up almost as soon as the group gets started.  To save us
all time, I'll ask that the following subjects be covered by
private mail (in other words, talk to someone who CARES.)  I'm
not judging the validity of anyone's arguments one way or the
other in these subject, just that I have yet to see one person
change their mind about them.


1. The Holocaust
2. Did Roosevelt Know About The Coming Attack on Pearl Harbor?
3. (Watch this space...)

One last item, STATE YOUR REFERENCES!  You're in tough company
here.  Some of the folks in this list are VERY sharp, and
you'll end up with egg on your face if you haven't done your
homework.


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If I haven't suffciently confused you, send me e-mail and I'll finish the job:-)


Larry J
Date:         Wed, 16 Sep 1992 18:06:11 CDT
From: DONALD NEWCOMB <NEWCOMB%USMCP6.BITNET@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
Subject:      Getting back articles and the database

From:Larry Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Larry,
  One of the "niftiest" features of the listserver is the database
search. This allows the user to search for any subject and print
either an index of the "hits" or the articles themselves. For
instance if you mail the command sequence below to "listserv@ubvm.bitnet"
or "listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" it will send you an index of all
articles in the archive that deal with weapons (the WEAP: tag).
_
//Job
Database Search DD=Rules
//Rules DD *
sel * in wwii-l where subject contains ("weap:")
index
/*
_
If you change the word "index" to "print" it will return you a copy
of the articles themselves. I think you can start with the listserv
"help" command and find a complete set of instructions  for using the
database. The complete instructions are very complex and should only
be tackled by someone with experience with data searching experience.

Donald R. Newcomb - Univ. of Southern Mississippi - Gulf Park
   <NEWCOMB@USMCP6.BITNET>


Enough talking.  I can be reached at the following addresses;

Larry W. Jewell                      jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu
2501 Soldier's Home Rd. #58B         JEWELLL@PURCCVM
W. Lafayette, IN, 47906-3571
(317)496-3234


#Larry W. Jewell (ex-USN)  WWII-L Listowner   jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu     #
#"Sunday's horoscope is noteworthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly#
#unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life." #
#--"Your Horoscope," L.A. Evening Herald Express, Saturday, Dec. 6, 1941.   #

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 16 Jan 1994 17:32:05 CST
From:    Bart Marable <HYMARA@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject: Cigarettes

I am doing research on the Anglo-American relationship during and immediately
after WWII. In reading through some British serials I have come across
advertisements for cigarettes with the slogan "For admirers of the American
Style Cigarette." Does anybody know what the difference was between British
and American cigarettes during this time? And if there was a difference, how
did the British feel about this?

Bart Marable
HYMARA@LSUVM.sncc.lsu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 16 Jan 1994 22:35:03 EST
From:    MR SKIP WILDER <PHSP11A@PRODIGY.COM>
Subject: Re: WWII Books

Gudmundur,
        Q. M. Dabney & Company, Booksellers, buys and sells out of print
books on Military History.  Four times a year they issue their "Catalogue
of Old, Rare, and Out-of-Print Books on Military History" with the majority
of the items relating to WWII.  Their titles are expensive but they seem to
have things I've not seen elsewhere.  I've been buying from them for about
three years and their service has been impeccable.  Contact them at

                        Q. M. Dabney & Company, Booksellers
                        PO Box 42026
                        Washington  DC    20015

                        Voice Telephone 301-882-1470
                        FAX Telephone 301-881-0843

---
Skip Wilder
phsp11a@prodigy.com
McLean, Virginia, U. S. A.

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 15 Jan 1994 to 16 Jan 1994
*************************************************

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Status: O

There are 29 messages totalling 801 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Waffen-SS (5)
  2. re : Waffen SS (3)
  3. military ranks (2)
  4. USAAF 17 JAN 44
  5. The Passing of Historical Personalities (was Charging Windmills) (4)
  6. U-Boat warfare survivors (2)
  7. Waffen SS (4)
  8. Laconia Incident (2)
  9. WEAP: DR.BOYD--GERMAN SUBMARINES
 10. Patton's grave. (2)
 11. Leaflet Bombers
 12. Wilhelmshaven 1943
 13. Cigarettes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 16 Jan 1994 21:27:22 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Waffen-SS

It may seem comforting to think that the SS was at first some kind of elite but otherwise
noble fighting unit, and only became evil later     later on...
In fact, the SS acted with despicable brutality from Day one of World War
Two. First in Poland, where the SS shot defeated soldiers on numerous
occasions. In the Blitzkrieg of 1940, troops of the SS shot over 200 British
soldiers of the Norfolk Regiment after the Tommies had been disarmed and
were surrendered for several hours before being herded into a field and
machine-gunned. Bayonets were used on the survivors. Evidently, the "early"
SS were every bit as unpleasant as their successors.


------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 00:39:26 CST
From:    Steve Alvin <salvin@HEARTLAND.BRADLEY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Waffen-SS

If my memory is serving me correctly, the SS were also responsibler
for the execution of a number of Dutch troops who had surrendered
during the 1940 campaign.  Apparently this pocket of Dutch troops
did not receive notification of the Dutch surrender and continued
to resist.  When they were subdued, the SS executed them.

--
Steve Alvin
salvin@heartland.bradley.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 09:54:00 +0100
From:    Tobias van Gent <T.van.Gent@KIM.NL>
Subject: Re: re : Waffen SS

The Dutch who fought in the civil war in Spain also lost their citizenship.
Some former Dutch SSers could however retain their nationality in 1945-6 if
they would go to fight in the Dutch Indies during the independence war of
Indonesia and later in 1950 in Korea. This fact was latter on much critized.
But after the war the Netherlands was in great need of experienced soldiers.

Tobias van Gent KIM

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 11:50:15 GMT
From:    Johannes van Vuren <VANVUREN_J@SND02.PCR.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: military ranks

Thanks everyone who responded to this topic so far. Im now more enlighhtened.
The discussion so far has thrown up a few interesting conclusions and ideas:

        Is it true that field marshals and five-star generals are only created
        during war and not in peacetime?

        Is there a case for creating special ranks for women members of the
        forces? Or special names for their ranks? Of course, these names
        should not be derivatives of the male equivalent but "stand on their
        own feet" as it were.


Johannes van Vuren,
Canterbury, England. Exit

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 07:20:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: USAAF 17 JAN 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
MONDAY, 17 JANUARY 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
A-20, Douglas Havoc
A-36, North American Apache
B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
B-24, Consolidated Liberator
B-25, North American Mitchell
B-26, Martin Marauder
Beaufighter, Bristol
C-47, Douglas Skytrain
F-4, Lockheed Lightning
F-5, Lockheed Lightning
P-38, Lockheed Lightning
P-39, Bell Airacobra
P-40, Curtiss
P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
P-51, North American Mustang
Spitfire, Vickers Supermarine
Ventura, Lockheed

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, A-36's and P-51's support ground
forces in the Shaduzup-Ngamaw Ga area and near Taro; others bomb supply
dumps, warehouses, and rolling stock at Sahmaw; and P-40's hit Myitkyina
Airfield.
  Transfer: HQ 7th Bombardment Group (Heavy) from Pandaveswar to Kurmitola,
India.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Italy, B-17's attack the
marshalling yard at Prato and the marshalling yard and bridge at Pontassieve;
B-24's bomb the marshalling yard at Arezzo; and P-38's and P-47's provide
escort.
  Transfers in Italy: HQ 98th Bombardment Group (Heavy) and 343d Bombardment
Squadron (Heavy) from Manduria to Lecce with B-24's; 340th, 341st and 414th
Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), 97th Bombardment Group (Heavy), from Cerignola
to Amendola with B-17's.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25's attack
marshalling yards at Terni, Chiaravalle, and Montemarciano; B-26's strike the
Orte railway bridge and Viterbo marshalling yard; P-40's hit the Sibenik,
Yugoslavia harbor, the bridge at San Giorgio del Sannio, gun positions at San
Giuseppe and Formia and docks at Anzio; A-36's bomb Anzio, the Avezzano town
area and road junction, and Tarquinia town and factory buildings.
  Transfers in Italy: 87th Fighter Squadron, 79th Fighter Group, from Madna
Airfield to Capodichino with P-40's; 92d Fighter Squadron, 81st Fighter
Group, from Castelvetrano, Sicily to Capodichino with P-39's.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): 9 B-25's from Abemama Island,
Gilbert Islands, bomb and strafe Mille Atoll, Marshall Islands, hitting the
runway, AA positions, radio tower, warehouse area, lagoon dredges and
possible oil dumps. 4 P-40's from Makin Island, Gilbert Islands, bomb and
strafe the Mille Atoll landing ground.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, AAF
and US Navy (USN) fighters support a USN dive-bomber strike on shipping at
Rabaul; they claim 18 Japanese airplanes; 10 Allied fighters are lost. During
the night of 17/18 Jan, a few B-24's, in 2 flights, bomb the Rabaul area,
while 2 Royal New Zealand Air Force (RNZAF) Ventura's bomb the Kalakapisi
coast watcher station at Choiseul Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 47 B-24's and
B-25's bomb the Hansa Bay area; B-25's bomb Nubia; P-39's strafe the Rai
Coast; and B-24's bomb Bandanaira, Celebes Islands.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 13:52:19 GMT
From:    Stephen Baldwin <smb@NETMGRS.CO.UK>
Subject: The Passing of Historical Personalities (was Charging Windmills)

Bill Huber writes (re Kate Te Horst)
.
.       No, I'm not a veteran, just a historian.  It just saddens me to hear
.       of the passing of historical personalities (or anybody else for
.       that matter) in such an avoidable way.

I believe I cut out the piece in the paper. I must try and find it...
Re the passing of historical "personalities", I guess I feel that way
about the dwindling band of World War One veterans. All of them are
now very old indeed and they represent such a different world from the
one we live in now. I even cut out and save the obituaries of
the more distinguished veterans whose deaths appear in the national
daily papers!

I have been priviledged to meet some of the "grunts" (thanks to
James Owens for enlightening me on that one) including several
Somme veterans, one from the Gallipoli campaign ("Suvla Bay
was the worst place I ever visited"), and a chap who did Russian
convoys in WWII (joined the navy in 1918). One whom I knew
long before I got interested in World War history was a chap
who lost a leg at Paschendaele (1917) and was one of the early
members of the Limbless Ex-Servicemens Association. He met King
George after WWI. He died whilst I was living abroad so I never got
to speak to him. His son showed me photos of the royal meeting etc.

I have recently struck up a friendship with an 86 year old near
neighbour who tells me of her memories of the Great War. Obviously
only a child, she remembers staying on her uncle's farm when a
Zepplin flew overhead. Her uncle rushed outside with his shotgun
and took potshots at it complaining that "We don't want them
ruddy Germans round 'ere!"

Another "historical personality" that comes to mind is the last
remaining veteran of the Boer War, now living in Canada aged 113
or sthg like that. He was only a stable lad or something but is
apparently the last known person in the world who can wear the
Queen Victoria Boer War Medal (or whatever it's called). They
jetted him over here a year ago for our Remembrance Day
activities - he got on the TV etc...

End of rambling. Sorry 'bout this but I do get
a buzz tracking down the veterans and hearing from people
who were there...Aaahh the stuff of history....

steve baldwin
smb@netmgrs.co.uk

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 13:59:50 GMT
From:    Stephen Baldwin <smb@NETMGRS.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: The Passing of Historical Personalities (was Charging Windmills)

Ladies and Gentlemen!
apologies that my previous email was not mainly about WWII - I've just realised
that I was replying on WWII-L and not MILHIST-L (as I had thought I
was replying to). A problem when one is subscribed to lots of lists....

steve baldwin
smb@netmgrs.co.uk

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 09:10:04 EST
From:    Charles Reace <creace@ISD.CSC.COM>
Subject: Re: U-Boat warfare survivors

> However, while a practical consideration, moral behavior and the Laws of
> Warfare define the pilot of a crippled aircraft getting into parachute as a
> non-combatant.  As your discussion rightfully points out, that status is
> certainly to change once rejoining his unit.  However, I believe in the
> strictest sense to have engaged pilots in parachutes is a war crime.

CPT Ingalls, I'm not sure from your post if you are stating simply what
you understand to be technically, in a legal sense, a war crime; or if
you feel it morally incorrect.  In either case, how then do you cate-
gorize the bombing of civilians, including women and children, that was
done by both sides in WWII.  Or for that matter, how do you categorize
a submarine sinking a troopship -- the infantry that drown could not
fight back.  Should Hap Arnold and Chester Nimitz have been tried for
war crimes?

I do not intend this to sound sarcastic if it does to you.  I am simply
trying to make a point that once two nations go to war, they've already
thrown morality out the door.  Once you start putting "moral rules" into
effect, you start to legitimize warfare, even make it a somehow glorious
thing to do.  While the emotional side of me likely would not allow me
to shoot at a pilot hanging from a 'chute, the logical side says that if
that pilot is over his territory, then I may be saving friendly lives
and helping my side's war effort by killing him.

Obviously, the best answer is to not have wars, so that no such questions
need be raised.  To this end, I think we should avoid glorifying war by
claiming it is something chivalrous with rules that somehow keep it moral.
While I constantly marvel at the glorious things men (and women) sometimes
do in time of war, we should all remember how essentially ugly war is.

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <creace@isd.csc.com>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 09:09:56 EST
From:    "William B. Thacker" <wbt@CBEMF.ATT.COM>
Subject: Re: Waffen SS

Sidney Allinson writes:

> It may seem comforting to think that the SS was at first some kind of elite
> but otherwise noble fighting unit, and only became evil later later on...
> In fact, the SS acted with despicable brutality from Day one of World War
> Two.

Sidney cites cases from Poland and the invasion of France and the low
countries.

Indeed, it's a mistake to assume that elitism and atrocities were inversely
proportional, so that when the elite status dropped the atrocities
increased.  The equation's nothing near that simple, containing many more
variables.

The SS forces that saw service in these campaigns were the epitome of the
stereotype SS soldier.  The units were only regiments, nothing near the
full divisions they later became, were all-volunteer, and were hand-picked.
They were also more zealous, politically, than the SS troopers who were to
follow.  They contained a higher percentage of the original Blackshirts,
people who joined the SS for political, rather than military reasons.

Further, they lacked fighting experience.  The accounts I've read of
their performance in these early campaigns seems to indicate that they were
fierce, but crude and unskilled.  The combination led to high casualties
and atrocities.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
(614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              wbt@cbemf.att.com
                      Humpty Dumpty was pushed!

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 10:00:48 -0500
From:    "M. Joseph Barone" <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Laconia Incident

        On Spetember 12, 1942, U-156 sunk the liner Laconia near
Ascension Island.  Kapitan-Leutnant Hartenstein surfaced his submarine
to begin rescuing the ship's passengers, mostly Italian prisoners of
war and the families of servicemen, and sent a radio message alerting
the Allies to the situation.  Two other U-boats, the U-506 and U-507,
and an Italian submarine, changed course to assist, and Admiral Doenitz
requested help from Vichy ships in Dakar.

        On September 16, an American Liberator bomber found the U-156,
laden with survivors of the British liner Laconia and towing lifeboats
from that ship.  The plane attacked the U-156, ignoring the Red Cross
flag displayed, and the rescue efforts were broken off.

        On September 17, following this attack on the U-156, which
was still engaged in rescue operations, Admiral Doenitz issued his
"Laconia Order," forbidding U-boats to attempt to save the passengers
and crews of their targets.
--
Joe Barone
m1b@rayssd.ssd.ray.com
As much as I like Big Joe, I don't want to spend the rest of the war
in a prison camp.  Besides which, I'm a first generation Italian.
They would shoot me as a traitor.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 10:43:04 EST
From:    Ingalls Steven CPT <is8206@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: DR.BOYD--GERMAN SUBMARINES

An addition to the list recommended to that gentlemen seeking information on
U-boat commanders and operations is:

     ROHWER and HUMMELCHEN, Chronology of the War at Sea, Naval Institute Press

This provides a day by day account of all naval activity in all theaters.

CPT Stephen A. Ingalls
United States Military Academy
West Point

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 10:49:51 EST
From:    Ron Babuka <WRB@CORNELLC.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Patton's grave.

The discussions about Gen. Pattons grave has brought up several questions.

1) What is the legal status of military cemetaries overseas, are the plain
old cemetaries or are the considered soverign U.S. territory (such as an
embassy)?

2) How is the land procurred?

3) Who is responsible for it's upkeep and who guarantees its integrity?

4) How is it that one is interned in a military cemetaries overseas?

5) Is there a process in place to remove the remains and bring them back
to the US if the servicemans family wishes?

6) Do you have to be a serviceman to be interned in a military cemetary?

Ron Babuka

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 11:00:43 EST
From:    Ingalls Steven CPT <is8206@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: U-Boat warfare survivors

Mr. Reace,

Thanks for your posting.
>
>CPT Ingalls, I'm not sure from your post if you are stating simply what
>you understand to be technically, in a legal sense, a war crime; or if
>you feel it morally incorrect.  In either case, how then do you cate-
>gorize the bombing of civilians, including women and children, that was
>done by both sides in WWII?

Bombing non-military targets is a war-crime.  Of course, the definition of
military targets is often left to interpretation of the winner of that
conflict, even if that still doesn't make it right.

>Or for that matter, how do you categorize a submarine sinking a troopship --
>the infantry that drown could not fight back.  Should Hap Arnold and Chester
>Nimitz have been tried for war crimes?

Interesting application.  I'm not near my references on the philosophy of war.
However, my initial reaction is that all on board are combatants.

>I do not intend this to sound sarcastic if it does to you.  I am simply
>trying to make a point that once two nations go to war, they've already
>thrown morality out the door.

I'll disagree.  There are rules governing combatant actions in armed conflicts.
Fortunately, that's what differentiates a professional soldier from
mercenaries.  Your comments would lead me to believe we'd never agree on the
fact that I believe there is such an animal as legitimate warfare.  Asking any
veteran, the fact that it's legitimate in no way makes war glamorous.

>Obviously, the best answer is to not have wars, so that no such questions
>need be raised.  To this end, I think we should avoid glorifying war by
>claiming it is something chivalrous with rules that somehow keep it moral.

Ideally, I agree.  However, the practical side of humankind indicates there
will always be despots interested in testing these ideal laws.  The fact that
there are, in fact, rules, should make both sides of the spectrum on this
issue more comfortable.  Rules will never make it glorious or chivalrous.  They
do, however, help control the violence.

>While I constantly marvel at the glorious things men (and women) sometimes
>do in time of war, we should all remember how essentially ugly war is.

Agree.  But, I guess, we've wandered off the original issue.  The discussion of
the morality of U-boats and their actions during WWII was answered, I think, in
large part by Doenitz' near complete vindication at Nurnberg.

CPT Stephen A. Ingalls
United States Military Academy
West Point

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 08:27:43 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: military ranks

Throughout the Second World War, and for several years afterwards, women
in the British armed forces had different commissioned rank names than
did men.
For instance, the WAAF had officer ranks like: Section Leader...
The WRNS had a similar "different" rank hierarchy of names for female
officers.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 08:34:29 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: The Passing of Historical Personalities (was Charging Windmills)

While I was researching my book, THE BANTAMS: The Unknown Story of World War One (Howard Baker , London, 1981) i I met or corresponded with over
350 veterans of the Great War ) (1914-1918),  Marvellous characters. Then,
all of a sudden, they began to die off in batches. I
attended I don't know how many funerals, out of the respect I gained
for those splendid old gentlemen and their uncomplaining service
in quite the worst war that modern times has ever seen.
BTW: My own late father was a private soldier in The Green Howards,
and served two years in the trenches on the Western Front.


------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 11:16:07 -0500
From:    "M. Joseph Barone" <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Leaflet Bombers

 From: mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>:
> STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force):
> Mission 184: During the evening, 4 B-17's drop 840,000 leaflets on Amiens,
> Lille, Cambrai and St. Omer France without loss.

It seems that these leaflet bombers have been having extraordinary
luck in avoiding losses in Jack's postings.  Why was this?  Did the
Germans ignore them if there were only a few, were they undetected,
or was there some other reason?  Thanks.
--
Joe Barone
m1b@rayssd.ssd.ray.com
"Don't fool around with the women -- their husbands carry guns!  And
don't forget the penalty for looting is death!" cried Maitlin as he
ran after the transport carrying the yacht he had "found".

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 08:45:50 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Patton's grave.

Speaking of war dead of Britain and the British Commonwealth, until recently, it
it was a policy to bury dead near where they had fallen, and to establish
cemetaries in whatever foreign field thay lay.
One of the largest, belay that *the* largest
enterprise of this nature is that of the
Commonwealth War Graves Commission. The CWGC
maintains war graves and cemetaries in over
100 countries. The graves in the Commission's
care mark the resting places of
1, 694, 857 war dead.
For a complete study of CWGC, read COURAGE
REMEMBERED, by Kingsley Ward & Edwin Gibson.
(I had the pleasure of writing and researchiung
sections of that book,)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 09:08:08 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: re : Waffen SS

Right after the end of WW2 in Europe, the French began actively
recruiting Waffen SS PWs for service in Indo-China. There was a
direct offer that even the most culpable of SS would be quietly
whisked away in return for them "volunteering" for service in
what became a very nasty little war betwen the French and the
Viet Mihn.
A very large contingent of ex-SS subsequently fought in Foreign
Legion units there.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 11:21:50 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET>
Subject: Wilhelmshaven 1943

I am told that the first American raid into Germany took place on January 27,
1943.  Can anybody tell me if this is true, and something about the raid.

Thank you.


  =========================================================================
  | DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
  |                                  | Computers in Business & Education. |
  | Recently returned from my second | Education:  Curriculum development.|
  |   extended stay in Prague.       |    International Education, TEFL.  |
  |                                  | Central Europe:  Post revolution   |
  | Working on second book about     |    economic, social, political     |
  |   Prague and new Czech Republic. |    problems and opportunities.     |
  | E-Mail:                          | Free lance writing and editing.    |
  |   USA:  BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET    | Stamp collecting.                  |
  =========================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 12:26:28 -0500
From:    David Rising <drising@IO.ORG>
Subject: Re: Cigarettes

On Sun, 16 Jan 1994, Bart Marable wrote:

> I am doing research on the Anglo-American relationship during and
immediately > after WWII. In reading through some British serials I have
come across > advertisements for cigarettes with the slogan "For admirers
of the American > Style Cigarette." Does anybody know what the difference
was between British > and American cigarettes during this time? And if
there was a difference, how > did the British feel about this? > > Bart
Marable > HYMARA@LSUVM.sncc.lsu.edu >
Bart, I'm just going to hazzard a
guess based upon what I know as an ex-smoker.  Here in Canada (& in
England as well) cigarettes (presently-I don't know about during WWII) are
made with Virginia tobacco.  So are those made in the U.S..  What, then,
you ask, is the difference?  Well, American cigarettes taste harsher and
British ones taste sweeter.  The British ones, however, are frequently
stronger in Tar &Nic. levels (A Dunhill w/filter = a Camel w/o filter).
It must have to do with the way that they cure the tobacco.  BTW, sorry
if this message comes out garbled, my computer's been doing funny things
recently.
David Rising (drising@io.org)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 10:59:29 -0800
From:    "Jackson, Christopher R. UC Davis" <crjackson@UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Waffen-SS

Thanks to Mr. Kieran for his informed posting on the Waffen-SS.  By way
of another reference, I can recommend the book by Guy Sajer, a
francophone member of the Waffen-SS, "The Forgotten Soldier"--one of the
few memoirs of the second world war that grinds no axes.

Christopher R. Jackson, UC Davis

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 12:19:09 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Waffen-SS

'Couple other informative books...
SCOURGE OF THE SWASTIKA, by Lord Russel of Liverpool
ORDER OF THE DEATHS HEAD (author escapes me for the moment)
SA
DAS REICH (SS Division history), by Max Hastings

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 16:01:10 -0400
From:    Joe Bialek <JBIALEK@SMITH.SMITH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Waffen-SS

I beleive that Sajer was NOT SS but a memebr of the elite ARMY division
GROSS DEUTSHLAND.  I distinctly remember at the end of his book that he
removed the GD armband becuase it was rumored that the Americans were
shooting any German soldier from a named (rather than numbered) division.
Obviously the American assumed all named divisions were SS..not so.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 16:44:08 -0500
From:    Justin Gustainis SUNY-Plattsburgh <GUSTAIJJ@SPLAVA.CC.PLATTSBURGH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Waffen SS

I agree with Bill Thacker about the lack of a relationship between elite status and atrocities.  And it doesn't begin and end with the Waffen-SS, either.
During Vietnam, and since, there have been some very persistent rumors
about atrocities (by which I mean murder of civilians and torture of
prisoners) by some elements of U.S. Special Forces.  I am by no means
attempting to slander the Green Berets.  Note that I said "some elements,"
and we're talking rumors here, anyway.  But, as I said, these are persistent
rumors.  Some of these come from Special Forces participation in the so-
called Phoenix Program in Vietnam (which also involved some Navy SEALs),
others come from El Salvador 20 years later.  Some of this may be leftist
propaganda.  All of it?  Hard to say.

My point is, though, that atrocities are not necessarily a function of
poorly trained or badly disciplined troops (as was apparently the case at
My Lai 4).  Some times people are playing what they consider to be "hard-
ball."  Is one man's hardball another man's atrocity.  You betcha-- and the
winners usually write the history books.

Justin Gustainis
Department of Communication
SUNY-Plattsburgh

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 18 Jan 1994 12:22:59 +1100
From:    Mick Fauchon <ulmjf@DEWEY.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: The Passing of Historical Personalities (was Charging Windmills)

        Speaking of those who have passed on, I presume we all heard that
"Bubi" Hartmann, the fighter ace, died on Oct. 22nd last year.

                                                                Mick.

--                                                                          --
Mick Fauchon                          | Internet: ulmjf@dewey.newcastle.edu.au
Reference Section, Auchmuty Library   | Ph  (intl+61+49) 215861
University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA    | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 18 Jan 1994 14:05:58 +1000
From:    John Foster <PHS1A@CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Waffen SS

In the magazine "History Today" for I think  April 1992 there is an article
mainly dealing with the Eastern front in which the author sets out to show
that the SS and Waffen SS are blamed for a lot of the attrocities that were
carried out equally by the army,sometimes in deed and sometimes in complicity.
He argues that there has been a shift in feeling over the years starting with
the publication of works by army generals in the postwar years to distance
themselves from the Nazi regime.A regime which they mightn't have agreed with
in principle but one which they supported to the hilt when Hitlers projections
came to pass and the early victories started to mount up.At that stage they
were certainly in like flint and on the eastern front the author argues that
the generals down to the ordinary soldier new what sort of war they were going
to wage ie they were going to wage total war to take land and possessions for
the German people from a race of people that weren't even fit to be called
people and this war was to be waged against men women and children ,combatants
and non combatants alike.He argues the guidelines for treatment of special
people ie communists and prisoners in general and then the slavic people in
general was clearly defined so noone was ignorant of the role they were to play
or in the planned outcome thus making all involved "bedfellows".The author goes
onto claim that with successive "revisionist " histories being produced we have
come to the point in our time where President Regan can lay a wreath to German
war dead and even declare the SS as "victims" of the Nazi regime.
    It is interesting to note the strong feeling about this period and the army
system that permeates through the writings of Hans Kirst author of the "Gunner
Asch series" amongst others.In the "Night of the Generals" there are great
slabs of his views personal views and I quote from one from the draft of a
lecture that was never given.
 "If you train a man for war alone you are automatically training him for
murder;but if you claim in all sincerity that you are training him to preserve
peace you must train him to be a human being."
      I think this ties in with the point of the magazine article  that ALL the
German forces marched to the East to destroy and to kill.As simple as that and
that this clearly was a war crime by all involved.
     Comments please ladies and gentlemen,boys and girls!
                                                   John

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 21:01:23 -0600
From:    Lakeville Senior High <0194lsh@TIES.K12.MN.US>
Subject: Re: re : Waffen SS

It seems to me that I read that the French also re-armed Japanese PW's to
protect French outposts in Indo-China.

Any documentation on the role of SS PW's in Indo-China?

On Mon, 17 Jan 1994, Sidney Allinson wrote:

> Right after the end of WW2 in Europe, the French began actively
> recruiting Waffen SS PWs for service in Indo-China. There was a
> direct offer that even the most culpable of SS would be quietly
> whisked away in return for them "volunteering" for service in
> what became a very nasty little war betwen the French and the
> Viet Mihn.
> A very large contingent of ex-SS subsequently fought in Foreign
> Legion units there.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 18 Jan 1994 03:30:39 GMT
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <gummihe@ISMENNT.IS>
Subject: Re: Waffen SS

>
> In the magazine "History Today" for I think  April 1992 there is an article
> mainly dealing with the Eastern front in which the author sets out to show
> that the SS and Waffen SS are blamed for a lot of the attrocities that were
> carried out equally by the army,sometimes in deed and sometimes in complicity.
> He argues that there has been a shift in feeling over the years starting with
> the publication of works by army generals in the postwar years to distance
> themselves from the Nazi regime.A regime which they mightn't have agreed with
> in principle but one which they supported to the hilt when Hitlers projections
> came to pass and the early victories started to mount up.At that stage they
> were certainly in like flint and on the eastern front the author argues that
> the generals down to the ordinary soldier new what sort of war they were going
> to wage ie they were going to wage total war to take land and possessions for
> the German people from a race of people that weren't even fit to be called
> people and this war was to be waged against men women and children ,combatants
> and non combatants alike.He argues the guidelines for treatment of special
> people ie communists and prisoners in general and then the slavic people in
> general was clearly defined so noone was ignorant of the role they were to play
> or in the planned outcome thus making all involved "bedfellows".The author goes
> onto claim that with successive "revisionist " histories being produced we have
> come to the point in our time where President Regan can lay a wreath to German
> war dead and even declare the SS as "victims" of the Nazi regime.
>     It is interesting to note the strong feeling about this period and the army
> system that permeates through the writings of Hans Kirst author of the "Gunner
> Asch series" amongst others.In the "Night of the Generals" there are great
> slabs of his views personal views and I quote from one from the draft of a
> lecture that was never given.
>  "If you train a man for war alone you are automatically training him for
> murder;but if you claim in all sincerity that you are training him to preserve
> peace you must train him to be a human being."
>       I think this ties in with the point of the magazine article  that ALL the
> German forces marched to the East to destroy and to kill.As simple as that and
> that this clearly was a war crime by all involved.
>      Comments please ladies and gentlemen,boys and girls!
>                                                    John
>
This is wrong, One cannot say that ALL (or even most) of German
soldiers that started Barbarossa went in to kill and Destroy! If so then
the numbers of killed on the Eastern Front would be multiple to what we
know them to be.  The vast majority of the Heer and the Waffen SS units
at least tried to "behave" themselves. The Russians  "outclassed" the German
armed forced in raw brutality (for instance the commisars who executed
captured Germans and the numbers who were sent to Siberia to die). I
have yet to see any data that says that the Germans started those
tortures that were all over the Eastern Front and all that I have seen
points towards the Russians. The Russians really hated the Germans as a race.
Also, what do you call the Hamburg raids then (over 50.000 dead)?

Gudmundur Helgason
<gummihe@rvik.ismennt.is>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 22:00:43 CST
From:    Steve Alvin <salvin@HEARTLAND.BRADLEY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Laconia Incident

When the Laconia was sunk, the U. S. 1st Composite Squadron on
Ascension Island recieved a garbled message from the U-156 and
was not informed that the Germans were involved it rescuing the
survivors.  It was asked to provide an air-escort for the
British lifeboats.  Meanwhile, a B-24 of the USAAF 343rd BS
was flying from Ascension to Africa and spotted the 156 and the
British boats.  The pilot, Lt. Harden, asked for instructions
from the commander of the
1st CS, Captain Richardson, and was ordered to attack.

--
Steve Alvin
salvin@heartland.bradley.edu

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 16 Jan 1994 to 17 Jan 1994
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Status: O

There are 23 messages totalling 696 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. The Passing of Historical Personalities (was Charging Windmills)
  2. Waffen SS (6)
  3. Japanese soldiers in Indo-China after WWII
  4. GERMAN VETS
  5. USAAF 18 JAN 44
  6. SS, Waffen SS & Wehrmacht (3)
  7. Waffen-SS (2)
  8. re : Waffen SS
  9. CODE BREAKING (2)
 10. MEDIA/WEAP:  U-1105, the Rubber U-Boat (2)
 11. Brandenburg unit(s)
 12. military ranks
 13. U-Boats

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 23:20:52 CST
From:    Steve Alvin <salvin@HEARTLAND.BRADLEY.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Passing of Historical Personalities (was Charging Windmills)

At the risk of deviating a bit from WWII, I have found an effective
piece of video to show my college freshman the impact of WWI on
Europe.  Of course I talk about the death and destruction of the
war and they are assigned to read All's Quiet.  But I also show
part of the first few minutes of the movie Chariots of Fire.
If you remember there is the scene at the railroad station at
Cambridge with all the decorated disabled vets hoping for a hand-
out by carrying the bags of the passengers.  At one point, as the
Cambridge students are strutting along, one vet turns to another
and says (paraphrase) "For this we went to war."  Later, at the
welcoming dinner, while the headmaster talks about
the duty of the incoming class to Cambridge, King, and country,
the camera pulls back and shows plaques on the wall that list
graduates that died in British serivce.  From 1910 or so the
list is short.  Then from 1914-1918 the list just gets longer
and longer.  The scene is more powerful than my description and
it always works well in class.  (I would like to show the
entire movie if I had the time!)

--
Steve Alvin
salvin@heartland.bradley.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 18 Jan 1994 17:15:43 +1000
From:    John Foster <PHS1A@CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Waffen SS

Gudmundur
         The main cause of alarm in the army retreating from the east and the
reason for the staunch resistance to keep the Russian army back from the REICH
was not because they feared the Russians as such but they feared what the
Russians would do to them and then the German people in the way of reprisals.
I think that speaks for itself.Enough said about who started what and the
losing side ie Germany never had anywhere near the war dead in either civilians
or army as the Russians even fighting on several fronts.
         As to your question what do I call the 50,000 dead in Hamburg
personally speaking I call it a war crime and the rules laid down at Nuremburg
back me up.
                                                          Regards
                                                           John

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 18 Jan 1994 01:41:54 -0500
From:    Akira Takiguchi <akira@ATSON.ASAHI-NP.CO.JP>
Subject: Japanese soldiers in Indo-China after WWII

Lakeville Senior High <0194lsh@TIES.K12.MN.US> wrote:
>It seems to me that I read that the French also re-armed Japanese PW's to
>protect French outposts in Indo-China.

     Since I have no books about this topic I can't verify the fact, but
from what I found in a newspaper database:

     After WWII a lot of (one source says over 2000) Japanese soldiers
entered Vietminh.  By 1956 most of the survivors returned Japan (6 of
whom were awarded by Vietnamese government in 1987).
     One of the few soldiers who remained in Vietnam, Mr Matsushima
hopes to return Japan now (1991).
                             (summary from: Asahi Shimbun July 18, 1991)
--
      Akira Takiguchi  VP, ATSON, Inc.  (a subsidiary of the Asahi Shimbun)
             CANAL TOWER  9-3 Nihonbashi-Koamicho Chuo-ku Tokyo 103  Japan
   +81 3 3666 2881(voice) 2882(fax)  EMAIL TO <akira@atson.asahi-np.co.jp>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 18 Jan 1994 07:10:08 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: GERMAN VETS

John,

I will repost my response to your interesting query. Sorry about the
trouble getting it to you.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 18 Jan 1994 07:33:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: USAAF 18 JAN 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
TUESDAY, 18 JANUARY 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-24, Douglas Dauntless
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 12 P-38's hit the airfield and
satellite field at Meiktila; 18 B-24's and 9 B-25's bomb the encampment area
at Kyaukchaw; 17 A-36's and P-51's hit troops, dumps, and workshops at
Sawnghka; 11 P-40's attack troops and stores at Shaduzup; 3 transport
aircraft are lost to Japanese fighters during a supply dropping mission SE
of Sumprabum.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In French Indochina, 2 B-25's bomb the
railroad yard and wharf at Campha Port and oil storage facilities at Mon Cay.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): B-17's attack marshalling
yards, a bridge and an airfield in the Florence, Italy area; P-38's and
P-47's provide close escort.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-26's hit the harbor,
tin mills, steel works, power house, and blast furnaces at Piombino, and bomb
the Montalto di Castro railroad and bridge; B-25's hit the town and railway
viaduct at Terni, and A-20's blast gun positions in the Minturno area; P-40's
hit trains, wharves and vessels in the Ploca and Metkovic, Yugoslavia areas;
A-36's and P-40's pound troops, trucks, and gun positions in the Minturno
area and near Pontecorvo and Atina, hit a gasoline dump at Pignataro
Interamna, a warehouse at Fontana Liri, a factory at Ceprano, the rail and
road junction at Avezzano, and railway at Santa Marinella.
  Transfers in Italy: 81st and 434th Bombardment Squadrons (Medium), 12th
Bombardment Group (Medium), from Foggia to Gaudo Airfield with B-25's; 307th
Fighter Squadron, 31st Fighter Group, from Pomigliano to Castel Volturno with
P-51's; 344th, 345th and 415th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), 98th
Bombardment Group (Heavy), from Manduria to Lecce with B-24's.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): In the Marshall Islands, 12
B-25's from Abemama Island, Gilbert Islands, attack barracks area, runway and
gun position on the N part of Mille Atoll; 25 A-24's and 8 P-40's from Makin
Island, Gilbert Islands pound the oil storage area on the S side of Jabor
Island in Jaluit Atoll; the P-40's also strafe a radio station in the target
area.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 34
B-25's supported by 70+ fighters, pound Tobera; and single B-24's on armed
reconnaissance bomb the Maliai, Vunakanau, and Lakunai areas.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, the Hansa Bay
area is bombed by 40 B-24's. 70+ B-25's pound the Madang and Bogadjim areas
and positions around Shaggy Ridge; 55 P-38's and P-40's engage a like number
of Japanese fighters over Wewak, losing 3 P-38's and claiming 12 shot down.
Other B-24's bomb Laha, Celebes Islands.
  HQ 345th Bombardment Group transfers from Port Moresby to Dobodura, New
Guinea.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 18 Jan 1994 08:59:24 EST
From:    Richard Kaplan <kaplanr@CLP2.CLPGH.ORG>
Subject: Re: SS, Waffen SS & Wehrmacht

Quick question for my own edification. Did Wehrmacht troops take the same oath
of allegiance to the Fuhrer (as an individual, and as the state) as the SS
inductees (volunteers) did?  Would this also hold true for the non-German SS
troops?

I always liked the German photo (it was their equivalent of a who we are, and
why we fight series) showing a young Wehrmacht trooper with the "Gott Mitt Uns"
belt buckle.  What was interesting about him, is that he wasn't a specimen of
the perfect Aryan.  I'll try and come up with the series name tomorrow.

                                Richard Kaplan
                                Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 18 Jan 1994 07:24:12 EST
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <hb9388@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Waffen-SS

Chris and listmembers:

There has been a lot of good info passed on the Waffen SS, but one
thing I'd like to make clear ref this message:  Guy Sajer was NOT
in the Waffen SS.  Sajer served in the Grossdeutschland Panzer-grenadier
Division.  This unit was an elite Wehrmacht (regular Army) unit and had
NO affiliation with the Waffen SS.  The book, "The Forgotten Soldier", is
an excellent book, no doubt about that.  Let's not get confused by lumping
the named (i.e. elite) Army units with the Waffen SS.

Some other named Army divisions:  the Panzer Lehr Division, the Brandenburgers,
44th Hoch und Deutschmeister Infanterie Division, the Feldherrnhalle
units (initially recruited from former SA members), the Fuhrer-Begleit
Brigade (Fuhrer Escort Brigade), the Fuhrer-Grenadier Brigade.

Bear



>Thanks to Mr. Kieran for his informed posting on the Waffen-SS.  By way
>of another reference, I can recommend the book by Guy Sajer, a
>francophone member of the Waffen-SS, "The Forgotten Soldier"--one of the
>few memoirs of the second world war that grinds no axes.
>
>Christopher R. Jackson, UC Davis
>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 18 Jan 1994 09:06:08 EST
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: re : Waffen SS

>Right after the end of WW2 in Europe, the French began actively
>recruiting Waffen SS PWs for service in Indo-China. There was a
>direct offer that even the most culpable of SS would be quietly
>whisked away in return for them "volunteering" for service in
>what became a very nasty little war betwen the French and the
>Viet Mihn.
>A very large contingent of ex-SS subsequently fought in Foreign
>Legion units there.

Too much can be made of this.  I find Fall's analysis of the makeup of the
French forces in Indo-china convincing, and do not think that a high
percentage of forces there were even German, much less SS.

ken koester
maint2@ers.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 18 Jan 1994 10:12:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: CODE BREAKING

Tonight, the PBS station in New York City (WNET, Channel 13), presents
a NOVA show entitled CODEBREAKERS.  According to the review in the New
York Times, the show starts in 1914 and discusses the Oxbridgers in London
who broke the German Navy Code, decrypted the famous Zimmerman telegram which
helped nudge the US into World War I.

Most of the show relates to World War II including discusssions of William
Friedman who broke the Japanese Purple Code, the breaking of the code
providing information about Midway, the British-American team that broke
the German code allowing the Allies to beat the U-boats, etc.

For those of you in the New York metro area, the show is on Channel 13 between
8 and 9 PM.  The show is also on WEDW, Channel 49 (wherever that may be)
at the same time.


-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------
 &a76c23Y~.
.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 18 Jan 1994 10:43:37 EST
From:    Charles Reace <creace@ISD.CSC.COM>
Subject: Re: Waffen SS

> German forces marched to the East to destroy and to kill.As simple as that and
> > that this clearly was a war crime by all involved.
> >      Comments please ladies and gentlemen,boys and girls!
>
>
> This is wrong, One cannot say that ALL (or even most) of German
> soldiers that started Barbarossa went in to kill and Destroy! If so then

Regardless of the relative morality of the common soldiers, the real problem
IMHO is that *many* men of low morals rose to positions of power in both
Germany and the USSR at this time.  If they had not condoned or at least
willingly looked the other way, many fewer attrocities would have occurred.
When soldiers are killing and trying to avoid being killed, they *will*
become bloodthirsty.  And there are always evil people throughout this
world.  But if they know certain actions are forbidden and subject to
serious punishment, they're much less likely to happen.  So, I would spend
less time looking at the common soldiers and more at the political and
military leadership (so to speak) that allowed these horrors to happen.

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <creace@isd.csc.com>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 18 Jan 1994 11:09:48 EST
From:    Charles Reace <creace@ISD.CSC.COM>
Subject: Re: Waffen-SS

> Some other named Army divisions: . . .

And don't forget my favorite, the Herman Goering Falschirmpanzer Division
(parachute armor division -- I just love the image this evokes  B^)

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <creace@isd.csc.com>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 18 Jan 1994 11:01:08 EST
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Waffen SS

On Tue, 18 Jan 1994 10:43:37 EST Charles Reace said:
>Regardless of the relative morality of the common soldiers, the real problem
>IMHO is that *many* men of low morals rose to positions of power in both
>Germany and the USSR at this time.  If they had not condoned or at least
>willingly looked the other way, many fewer attrocities would have occurred.

Possibly.  However, I think something that Keegan describes in =The Face of
Battle= is at work here:  the "slippage" of standards that occurs when fighting
someone not "of" one's "group".  Keegan describes this when he analyzes the
*kinds* of specific encounters that occurred at Agincourt, Waterloo, and
the Somme, pointing out that, say infantry/cavalry encounters seemed to
encourage brutal behaviour in a way that infantry/infantry or cavalry/cavalry
encounters did not.  But he also goes on to make the same point in his
summation afterward:  that encounters between groups that consider themselves
"separate" also engender much savagery.  I'm much afraid that the average
German probably didn't think the average Russian as being quite as human as
himself, at least subconsciously. . . and vice versa.  (By contrast, Americans,
British, Germans all tended to relate to each other as European or Western
in a broad sense.  Keegan points out, if memory serves, that the war in the
Pacific was quite savage for much the same reason; my own sense of wartime
propaganda--admittedly unscientifically sampled (-: --is that it dehumanized
the Japanese as a people more than it did the Germans.  God only knows what
the Japanese thought of occidentals--the Bataan death march is suggestive:
how dare these "warriors" inconvenience us by surrendering instead of fighting
to the death?  They must be sub-human; away with the lot of them! or similar
sentiments.)

ken koester
maint2@ers.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 18 Jan 1994 10:59:20 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: Re: Waffen SS

In reply to the mail from <gummihe@ISMENNT.IS>...
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>Date:         Tue, 18 Jan 1994 03:30:39 GMT
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>From: Gudmundur Helgason <gummihe@ISMENNT.IS>
>Subject:      Re: Waffen SS
>X-To:         WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu
>To: Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
>In-Reply-To:  <9401180309.AA13073@rvik.ismennt.is>; from "John Foster" at Jan
>              18, 94 2:05 pm
>
>>     Much Deleted
>>
>This is wrong, One cannot say that ALL (or even most) of German
>soldiers that started Barbarossa went in to kill and Destroy! If so then
>the numbers of killed on the Eastern Front would be multiple to what we
>know them to be.  The vast majority of the Heer and the Waffen SS units
>at least tried to "behave" themselves. The Russians  "outclassed" the German
>armed forced in raw brutality (for instance the commisars who executed
>captured Germans and the numbers who were sent to Siberia to die). I
>have yet to see any data that says that the Germans started those
>tortures that were all over the Eastern Front and all that I have seen
>points towards the Russians. The Russians really hated the Germans as a race.
>Also, what do you call the Hamburg raids then (over 50.000 dead)?
>
>Gudmundur Helgason
><gummihe@rvik.ismennt.is>
>
 Gudmundur,

For the first two years after the Russian army went on the
offensive, it was fighting to liberated its own homeland.  What
some of these soldiers discovered when they liberated their home
towns was beyond description!!!!!  Read Craig's "Enemy at the
Gates" for some idea.  It was not only the Einsatzgruppen,
either!!

As for hating a race, how do you account for the description of
all Slavs as Untermenschen.  The Germans planned on using
western Russia as Lebensraum, what do you think they planned on
doing with the inhabitants?

If you are speaking of the fire bombing of Hamburg, it was the
British and the Americans who bombed Hamburg, not the Russians.
I call it an atrocity, as I have stated here before.

Jim


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-8760
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-8760

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 18 Jan 1994 11:03:02 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: SS, Waffen SS & Wehrmacht

Yes, all officers and men of the Wehrmacht pledged personal
allegiance to Adi Adolph Hitler. The practice began as early
as 1935. Neat trick by AH, as previously all soldiers had
pledged alleigiance to their country, only.
In the event of request for supporting docs., there is graphic
evidence shown on s camera of this mass army oath to AH shown
in the first segment of the BBC/Thames TV documentary series,
THE WORLD AT WAR, which by coincidence I saw again just yeasterday
on TV Knowledge Network.
  ###

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 18 Jan 1994 11:07:04 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: SS, Waffen SS & Wehrmacht

To best of my recollection, The GOTT MIT UNS belt buckly buckle was
worn by German soldiers as early as thre 1914-1918 war. Hitler
allowed its retention, by his new army, as just another useful
ploy.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 18 Jan 1994 14:38:00 -0500
From:    David Rising <drising@IO.ORG>
Subject: Re: Waffen SS

John,
Your note on the SS and all German troops who fought in the East was
interesting, but I think wrong in many respects.  First of all, it
implies that everyone who was in the Wermacht and in the SS who fought in
the East did so with the sole intention of committing atrocities.  This
is simply not true.  Many, if not most of the soldiers who fought on the
eastern front were conscripts- If you took a poll of the soldiers @ the
time, I bet you'd find most did not want to be there.  This also says
nothing about the Penal Regiments who were there as punishment for their
own special crimes.
 Secondly, you seem to be equating "going to war" or "fighting in a war"
with being responsible for war crimes.  While some may differ, the common
opinion is that if you are a soldier and you kill one/some of the enemy
in battle, you are neither a murderer nor responsible for war crimes.
Furthermore, not to make excuses for atrocities but, in war time, they do
happen.  The Wehrmacht committd atrocities.  So did the SS.  So did the
British Ex. Force, so did the American armies, so did the Russians.
Atrocities have been committed in every war in the 20th century by all
kinds of different armies.  I doubt, howvever, if many people joined
their respective armed services for this purpose.  I guess the point is
that the SS were bad, but so were the NKVD and many others. By this I
don't mean to excuse, simply to put things in perspective.
David Rising (drising@io.org)

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 18 Jan 1994 14:11:53 EST
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: MEDIA/WEAP:  U-1105, the Rubber U-Boat

Excerpts from today's (Tuesday's) =Washington Post=:

"For 36 years, the furtive U-boat nicknamed the Black Panther languished on the
Potomac River bottom. . . . Then, in 1985, a recreational diver researching
declassified U.S. Navy documents rediscovered the sunken German U-1105, a
World War II prize sheathed in rubber to evade detection by Allied sonar.

"The 220-foot U-boat was one of no more than 10 German submarines outfitted
with a four-millimeter thick rubber covering to avoid sonar detection.  It
is the only one left to have used this early form of stealth technology,
state officials and U-boat historians say.

"The U-boat was launched in April 1944.  Under Oberleutnant Hans-Joachim
Schwarz, the submarine embarked in April 1945 for its only war patrol,
along the Allied convoy route off the coast of Ireland.  After it was sighted,
it descended 570 feet to the ocean bottom and, despite 299 depth charges
lobbed at it from above, emerged unscathed, according to naval historians.

"'It was a very good boat, it was a very good tactic, and I had a very good
crew,' said Schwarz, now 75 and living in Hamburg.

"When he learned that the war was over, Schwarz said, 'We were told to
bring the boat to a <Scottish> port, and the crew walked off and was captured
by the British, and some of us spent three years after the war in England' as
detainees.

"While the captain was being held in Britain, his U-boat became one of a
dozen turned over to the United States.

"Under the war prize agreement between the Allies, the subs could be studied
for American defense purposes but then had to be destroyed.  The Black
Panther was sunk twice, first by flooding it in the Chesapeake Bay off Point
No Point in fall 1946.

"Three years later the boat was brought to the surface and towed into the
Potomac River.  There, on Sept. 19, 1949, in a Navy test of a new 250 pound
depth charge, the sub was sunk again, this time in 85 feet of water off
Piney Point, Maryland.  In describing the submerged sub's location, however,
a Navy report transposed two digits, incorrectly placing it off the Virginia
coast in the Atlantic."

Etc.  Maryland wants 