Subject: WWII-L Digest - 13 Jan 1994 to 14 Jan 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 1994 00:01:42 -0500

There are 32 messages totalling 1040 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Waffen-SS
  2. Bookstores with WWII books
  3. USAAF 14-16 JAN 44
  4. Military ranks (6)
  5. TAC:  use of recon batallions
  6. The origin and hierarchy of ranks
  7. Icelandic SS volunteer
  8. U-Boot Feldpost (2)
  9. Astra's "front" (2)
 10. Command confirmation request (7C3C0A)
 11. re : Waffen SS
 12. MILHST-L Digest - 8 Jan 1994 to 9 Jan 1994
 13. Intercontinental Internet!
 14. AIR: SELECTED GERM
 15. U-Boat warfare survivors (6)
 16. General of the Army (2)
 17. Firing on U-boats (2)
 18. U-boat warnings/risks

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Jan 1994 10:23:00 EST
From:    "W. C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Waffen-SS

This from WWII IN FLASHBACK by Timothy B. Benford (p. 207):

"The once-touted pure Aryan composition of the Waffen-SS was
only a myth by late 1944.  Approximately 500,000 non-Germans
filled the ranks of no less than 27 of the 40 Waffen-SS divisions.
This meant that over half of the service's strength was from
other areas of Europe.  In addition there were volunteer
Americans and Asians who served, but the largest number of
non-Germans was the nearly 100,000 Russians.  Some other
countries with large national representation in the Waffen-SS
were Holland, 50,000; France,20,000; Finland, 20,000; Norway,
6,000 and Denmark, 6,000."

Bill

[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 11:14:43 GMT
From:    Johannes van Vuren <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Bookstores with WWII books

Write to the following bookshop in London England. They have a LARGE selection
of WW2 books:

        Foyles Bookshop,
        Charing Cross Road,
        London W1.

Johannes van Vuren,
Canterbury.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 07:22:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: USAAF 14-16 JAN 44

              COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
                          14 - 16 JANUARY 1944

FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-24, Douglas Dauntless
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  SBD, Douglas Dauntless (USN)

FRIDAY, 14 JANUARY 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): Bad weather limits operations to fighter
patrols in the Sumprabum, Burma area.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 4 B-25's on a coastal sweep from
Pakhoi to Haiphong, French Indochina bomb a group of buildings on Weichow
Island; 2 B-24's damage 2 vessels near Saint John Island.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 183: 356 of 374 B-17's and
156 of 178 B-24's hit 20 of 21 V-weapon sites in the Pas de Calais area of
France; 19 B-24's hit targets of opportunity; they claim 8-0-1 Luftwaffe
aircraft; 2 B-17's and 1 B-24 are lost, 1 B-24 is damaged beyond repair and
66 B-17's and 9 B-24's are damaged; casualties are 1 KIA, 11 WIA and 31 MIA.
98 P-38's, 504 P-47's and 43 Ninth Air Force P-51's escort; they claim 14-1-0
Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 P-38, 1 P-47 and 1 P-51 are lost, 1 P-47 is damaged
beyond repair and 9 P-47's and 1 P-51 are damaged; casualties are 3 MIA.
  Mission 184: During the evening, 4 B-17's drop 840,000 leaflets on Amiens,
Lille, Cambrai and St. Omer France without loss.
  Mission 185: 2 B-17's are dispatched to Wesel, Germany for a night test
of Oboe Mk II; 1 aircraft aborts and 1 drops 2 tons of high explosive bombs
on the target without loss.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): HQ 71st Fighter Wing transfers from
Aldermaston to Greenham Common, England.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Around 200 B-24's and B-17's
attack the town area and airfield at Mostar, Yugoslavia. P-38's provide
escort throughout the missions, and P-47's join the B-17's at the target and
cover the flight back to base.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25's strike the
Pontecorvo bridge; A-20's offer close support to US Fifth Army forces in the
Monte Trocchio area; P-40's blast Loreto tank repair shops; P-40's and A-36's
hit defenses in the San Giuseppe, Sant' Elia Fiumerapido. and Monte Trocchio
areas; A-36's also attack road and buildings E of Minturno, the town of Isola
del Liri, and the harbor at Anzio.
  Transfers in Italy: HQ 321st Bombardment Group (Medium) and 445th, 446th,
447th and 448th Bombardment Squadrons (Medium) from Amendola to Vincenzo
Airfield with B-25's and 308th Fighter Squadron, 31st Fighter Group, from
Pomigliano to Castel Volturno with P-51's.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): In the Marshall Islands, 12
B-24's, staging through Tarawa Atoll, Gilbert Islands, bomb 3 islands in
Kwajalein Atoll; 3 B-25's from Makin Island, Gilbert Islands fly a mission
against shipping at Wotje Atoll; 2 of the B-25's attack 2 small vessels,
sinking 1 and damaging the other; the other B-25 bombs a runway and building
on the S part of Wotje.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island,
during the night of 13/14 Jan, 15 B-24's bomb Vunakanau and Lakunai
Airfields, Rabaul, Rapopo and Malaguna; just before dawn, 12 B-25's hit Au
and Cape Gazelle and Buka, Buka Island in the Solomon Islands. P-39's join US
Navy (USN) SBD's in bombing Wakunai, Bougainville Island. 70+ Allied fighters
support a strike by 50+ USN dive bombers against shipping in Simpson Harbor
at Rabaul; the fighters claim 27 aircraft shot down.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 50+ B-24's,
B-25's, and P-40's hit the Alexishafen and Erima area. On New Britain Island,
B-24's bomb Cape Busching; B-25's attack targets  of opportunity along the N
coast, and A-20's strike villages along the S coast.

SATURDAY, 15 JANUARY 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): 4 P-40's and a B-25 over N Burma hit a train
at Pinwe.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 2 B-25's on a sea sweep along the French
Indochina coast bomb the Hongay power plant and sink a gunboat in a nearby
cove to the SW; a coal grading building at Campha Port is also bombed. 2
B-25's on a sweep off the SE China coast sink a wooden vessel off Swatow and
damage the lighthouse on Nampana Island. 2 others shoot down a Japanese
bomber N of Chikhom, China.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  MEDITERRANEAN ALLIED AIR FORCE (MAAF): Lieutenant General Ira C Eaker,
USAAF, assumes command of MAAF and Army Air Forces, MTO (AAFMTO), replacing
Air Chief Marshall Sir Arthur Tedder, RAF, and General Carl Spaatz, who
along with Air Vice Marshall Sir Arthur Coningham, RAF, and numerous other
American and British officers have departed for the UK.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Italy, B-24's bomb the Prato
marshalling yard and industrial area, and also hit roads in the area and drop
several bombs on the town of Pistoia. B-17's concentrate on railroad yards
and bridges in the Florence area at Certaldo, Poggibonsi, Montalto di Castro,
Arezzo, Civitavecchia, and near Porto Civitanova and Orvieto, and hit
scattered targets of opportunity. Fighters escort all the missions.
  HQ 306th and 307th Bombardment Wings (Heavy) are activated at Bari, Italy.
  HQ 455th Bombardment Group (Heavy) and 740th, 741st, 742d and 743d
Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy) arrive at San Giovanni, Italy from the US with
B-24's; first mission is 12 Feb.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25's attack the
Foligno railway junction; B-26's bomb bridges at Orvieto. P-40's of the 79th
Fighter Group and Royal Air Force (RAF) 239 Wing hit the San Valentino
station in a joint attack; A-36's and other P-40's, in support of US Fifth
Army forces, hit gun positions and strongpoints, especially at Picinisco and
Atina; P-40's on armed reconnaissance hit the railroad W of Frosinone station
and strafe the Ceccano station and railway cars.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): 9 B-25's from Tarawa Atoll,
Gilbert Islands flying at deck-level bomb and strafe shipping and shore
installations at Maloelap Atoll, Marshall Islands; 2 vessels are hit and the
oil dump, hangars, other buildings, and runways are damaged; 1 B-25 crashes
at sea after being hit by AA fire.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On Bougainville Island in
the Solomon Islands, 24 B-25's, with 60 fighters escorting, pound East Cape;
and P-39's attack barges and trucks at Chabai.
  HQ 347th Fighter Group and it's 339th Fighter Squadron transfer from
Guadalcanal Island to Stirling Island, Treasury Islands with P-38's.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, B-24's and
B-25's pound Uligan Harbor; P-40's, P-47's, and B-25's hit the Madang,
Alexishafen, Erima, and Bogadjim area. Enemy positions along the S coast of
New Britain Island are attacked by B-25's and P-39's.
  499th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 345th Bombardment Group (Medium),
transfers from Port Moresby to Dobodura, New Guinea with B-25's.

SUNDAY, 16 JANUARY 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 8 P-40's attack the town of Pingkai, China and
strafe targets of opportunity in the surrounding valley area.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO): General Dwight D Eisenhower assumes
duties of Supreme Commander, Allied Expeditionary Force (AEF).

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): B-24's attack the Osoppo, Italy
landing ground and the town of Zara, Yugoslavia; they claim 9 Luftwaffe
aircraft; 1 B-24 is lost. B-17's bomb the Messerschmitt factory at
Klagenfurt, Austria and the landing ground at Villaorba, Italy. Escorting
P-38's claim 9 Luftwaffe aircraft; 3 P-38's are lost.
  Transfers in Italy: HQ 97th Bombardment Group (Heavy) and 342d Bombardment
Squadron (Heavy) from Cerignola to Amendola with B-17's; HQ 454th Bombardment
Group (Heavy) and 736th and 737th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy) to San
Giovanni from the US with B-24's, first mission is 8 Feb; and 154th Tactical
Reconnaissance Squadron, 68th Tactical Reconnaissance Group (attached to
Fifteenth Air Force), begins a movement from Oran, Algeria to Bari, Italy
with P-38's.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25's bomb the
marshalling yard and choke points at Terni; B-26's attack the marshalling
yard and bridge at Orte; A-20's bomb the town of Atina; P-40's attack bridges
in the San Giorgio del Sannio area and gun emplacements near Cassino; Sant'
Angelo in Theodice and Picinisco; A-36's hit the railway junction at Cecina,
road and railway S of Siena, and the town areas of Avezzano and Formia.
  Transfers in Italy: HQ 79th Fighter Group and 85th and 86th Fighter
Squadrons from Madna Airfield to Capodichino with P-40's; and 99th Fighter
Squadron, XII Air Support Command (attached to 79th Fighter Group), from
Madna Airfield to Capodichino with P-40's.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): 25 A-24's, 16 P-39's, and 8
P-40's from Makin Island, Gilbert Islands strike Mille Atoll, Marshall
Islands; the A-24's bomb and strafe AA positions and storage areas, the
P-40's bomb and strafe barracks and AA emplacements and the P-39's strafe
runways; 2 P-39's are lost; P-39's sent up on interceptor missions claim 3
Japanese airplanes destroyed over Mille Atoll and Makin Island.
  Transfers:
  28th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, Seventh Air Force, to Kipapa
Airfield, Territory of Hawaii from the US with F-5's.
  431st Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 11th Bombardment Group (Heavy), from
Funafuti Atoll, Ellice Islands to Tarawa Atoll, Gilbert Islands with B-24's.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, the Madang,
Erima, and Bogadjim areas are hit by B-25's, A-20's, and P-40's; P-39's
strafe the area from Sio to Bogadjim; and B-25's bomb the area N from Cape
Croisilles. B-24's and B-25's attack positions near Arawe, New Britain
Island. B-24's carry out a light raid on the harbor of Amboina Island,
Moluccas Islands.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 08:11:48 EST
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Military ranks

On Thu, 13 Jan 1994 13:18:56 -0500 Warren Thompson said:
>Field marshal (one "l" only) seems to be derived from the 13th-C word
>"mareschal" which originally means "horse servant" or "groom." There
>is a possibly apocryphal story that the US Army has no such rank because
>the first one to be eligible was Gen George C. Marshall ... and having
>a "Marshal Marshall" might have been strange.

Actually, Pershing would have been eligible, I'm sure.  In fact, Congress
awarded him an honorary 6th star in the '20s, I believe.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 08:16:41 EST
From:    "William B. Thacker" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TAC:  use of recon batallions

Charles Reace writes:

> Recalling Hans von Luck's account, it struck me that during his part
> in the Russian campaign ('41-early '42) and in North Africa, the use
> of the Recce Batallions in the panzer divsions was not exactly what I
> would have expected.  During this period he was part of or in command
> of the recon batallion, and it seemed that it usually fought as a
> batallion, making it essentially another major maneuver element for
> the division.

In the Handbook on German Military Forces is a section on German
reconnaissance doctrine.  The Germans recognized various levels of recon,
from strategic all the way down to tactical.  The latter would be the case
you're looking for, where an armored car company or even platoon would be
detached for a local mission.

But during an advance like that into France in 1940 or Russia in 1941 this
sort of reconnaissance wasn't needed; rather, it was done by staff officers
in light cars or motorcycles, because the pace of the advance neither
allowed for nor required such detailed inspection in force.  In these
times, the Panzer recon. BN's were concentrated for long-range work.

In this long-range mission, the BN's would function as a unit.  They were
to find enemy troop dispositions and moreover, the gaps between them, and
to exploit these gaps when possible.  They frequently were required to do
more than just observe; they secured many valuable bridges and other
landmarks by quick action.  And their high mobility made them a valuable,
multi-purpose asset for a division commander, especially when a fast
advance left most of the division exhausted, disorganized, or stuck in
lengthy road columns.

In a defensive role, this same mobility allowed them to cover a large area,
albeit without much ability to fend off a major attack.  This was
particularly valuable to Rommel in the desert.  One of Luck's anecdotes
descrives being assigned to guard the southernmost flank of Panzerarmee
Afrika, a location where no attack was expected but where one could be
devastating.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
(614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              [email-masked]
                      Humpty Dumpty was pushed!

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 08:49:13 EST
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: The origin and hierarchy of ranks

On Fri, 7 Jan 1994 16:36:43 GMT Johannes van Vuren said:
>. . . . Why are there leutenant colenells
>and colenells? Why not leutenant captains as well?

Well, I can answer that one, I think.  In the days when armies were evolving
from little more than paid retainers to truly national organizations, it was
common for individuals to contract with the government to raise regiments
on their own.  Generally gentility, you understand, as it costs quite a bit to
raise a regiment & not many otherwise would have had the means.  Of course,
once raised, the colonel commanding it was in a position to make a nice
piece of change from the deal:  the fee from the crown, of course, but also
disbursing--or *not* disbursing--the regiment's pay, or even claiming more
men on the rolls than there were bodies in the field!  (The SF writer
Pournelle claims this practice as the origin of many of the current day
muster ceremonies/parades:  to actually show the crown's reps that the
regiment had the bodies in the ranks it was supposed to.)

Well, it developed that some colonels didn't particularly want to lead
their regiments in the field, being more businessmen than soldiers, hence
the lieutenant colonel led the regiment in the colonel's absence.  (Probably
a good thing, in many cases (-:  On the other hand, since virtually all
officer commissions were purchased to begin with, maybe it all balanced out
for the worse)

Incidentally, what I've described is more true of Britain than any other
country, but I believe variants were at work throughout Europe.

ken koester
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 08:37:46 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Military ranks

In Bob's message of 13 Jan 1994 at 1632 CST, he writes:

> ..... What they actually did,
> though, was to promote Pershing to "General Of The Armies" [note plural]
> and authorized him to wear 6 stars! Pershing never did add his extra two
> stars.
>                              Bob Kieran

Hi Bob,

Zow!  I never heard that.  Do you remember where you saw that?  I
know there is a precedent when George Washington was titled General
of the Armies but no insignia was established at that time (that I am
aware of).  Never heard about Pershing's 6 star promotion though.  He
did wear five though, didn't he?  Seems like I have a double page
poster out of a 1918 _Harpers Weekly_ that shows him with the 5 star
configuration.  I'll have to double check, that alzheimers may be
working on me again....

Historians up!  Con, Bear what's the Army position?

Cheers, Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 09:43:19 -0500
From:    Akira Takiguchi <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Icelandic SS volunteer

>>      ``The Icelandic volunteer Odiussen ["Egidir"] Grettir, born 7 May 1910,
:
>        Are you sure about this Waffen SS volunteer? The name is very
>strange to me and can it be spelled incorrectly in your post?

     *I* spelled it as it is written, but the source could be wrong.  Thank
you for your information.  I wish you will be able to research more about
this topic (since the birthdate is given, at least one key is there :-).

>What is _Siegrunen?? Is that is SS manual or something?

     _Siegrunen_ is a the only English-language magazine dedicated for the
Waffen-SS, published by the editor Richard Landwehr.  He is heavily pro-SS
(or pro-Nazi) so one must carefully examine the contents, but much infor-
mation is also there.  Quoted by many Waffen-SS related books.
--
      Akira Takiguchi  VP, ATSON, Inc.  (a subsidiary of the Asahi Shimbun)
             CANAL TOWER  9-3 Nihonbashi-Koamicho Chuo-ku Tokyo 103  Japan
   +81 3 3666 2881(voice) 2882(fax)  EMAIL TO <[email-masked]>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 09:43:22 -0500
From:    Akira Takiguchi <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: U-Boot Feldpost

CPT Stephen Ingalls wrote:
>I am interested in knowing whether someone has insight as to how U-boots
>received their Feldpost.  All vessels had Feldpost addresses (much like our APO
>system with the Department of Defense today), but I've never come across any
>source discussing the Feldpost system's service to ships at sea or U-boots.

     I haven't tried to dig up the Feldpost system, but Kannapin's work
are quoted by many authors.  Maybe you want other than his?

o _Die deutsche Feldpost 1939-1945.  Organisation und Lokalisation der
  Feldpostaemter und Feldpostdienststellen_  Kannapin  Biblio Verlag 1987
o _Die deutsche Feldpostuebersicht 1939-1945. Vollstaendiges Verzeichnis der
  Feldpostnummern in numerischer Folge und deren Aufschluesselung_  Kannapin
  Biblio Verlag 1980-1982 (3 volumes)

     The latter is essential when you identify a unit from a field post
number.
--
      Akira Takiguchi  VP, ATSON, Inc.  (a subsidiary of the Asahi Shimbun)
             CANAL TOWER  9-3 Nihonbashi-Koamicho Chuo-ku Tokyo 103  Japan
   +81 3 3666 2881(voice) 2882(fax)  EMAIL TO <[email-masked]>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 09:21:54 -0600
From:    Astra M Apsitis-1 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Astra's "front"

Lou--

Didn't mean to start anything...  I wholeheartedly agree that both RFE and
other groups funded by the Free Europe Committee served a valuable
purpose.  My note was meant only as a point of information--it was
irresponsible of me to write "just" in the final statement, and for that I
apologize.  To state the facts--in this case, that it was not public
information that RFE was CIA-funded--is "astronomical hypocrisy"?  I beg
to differ.

astra

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 09:57:58 CST
From:    Jason Bucholtz <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Command confirmation request (7C3C0A)

ok

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 16:57:00 CET
From:    Peter de Lange <[email-masked]>
Subject: re : Waffen SS

WAFFEN SS
Good info from Bill,Bill,Akiri and others.
Akiri wrote that ex-Dutch SS are no longer Dutch Citizens, that is
true, but this is not only for ex-SS's but for every one who served
in a strange army.
In 1940 a exception was made by law for them joining an allied army.

The rules for joining the SS changed from unit to unit and changed in
the time, but in 1940 you had to be a "Edelgermaan", that means,
as blond as Hitler, as slim as Goring and as big as Gobbels.
Peter de Lange

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 10 Jan 1994 00:00:06 -0600
From:    Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Subject: MILHST-L Digest - 8 Jan 1994 to 9 Jan 1994

There is one message totalling 25 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Military history in Russia

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 9 Jan 1994 23:33:26 EST
From:    John Sloan <[email-masked]>
Subject: Military history in Russia

HI everyone,
For two years I have been organizing and leading special tours to military
history sites in Russia and Ukraine. IN July 92 and July 93 we spent several
days staying in Sevastopol and visiting Crimean war sites as well as WWII
sites. Met with directors of military museums and historians.  I have just
been informed that there is to be a special commemoration event 3-6 June at
Sevastopol with a kind of reenactment - at least a camp with peoplewearing
period uniforms. The hosts want to invite Americans, especially reenactors,
people who would wear period uniforms of whatever era. This is something new
for Crimea and Sevastopol since the city has been a "closed city" in the past
and does not have the contacts withthe outside they want. In fact they are
desperate for contacts with the world historical community. If there is any
interest in the Crimean war out there, I would appreciate any responses.  We
have had major reeanctments at Borodino on first Sunday of Sept past 3 years
and I expectthere wil lbe one again. These people of course are much more
experienced. But again, anyone who wants to stay in a camp for 1812 period is
welcome.
John Sloan  at [email-masked]

 -----------------------------

End of MILHST-L Digest - 8 Jan 1994 to 9 Jan 1994
*************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 10:57:42 -0600
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Astra's "front"

Astra,

     Yes, I would say the "just" triggered my concern about
"astronomical hypocrisy."  Thanks for your amplification.

Lou

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 11:02:50 -0600
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Intercontinental Internet!

Think about this, folks!  We've got correspondents/researchers --
  and this is just one example -- in Japan and Iceland(!) trading
  interesting info on one errant Icelander who fought/died? in
  Russia in/after?  World War II.

Amazing.  Fascinating.  The global community seems irreversible.

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 12:56:25 EST
From:    Ingalls Steven CPT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: U-Boot Feldpost

Mr. Takiguchi,

Thank you for your response.  I have also found a work entitled 'Projekt
Himmelblau', accomplished by and loaned through the German Philatelic Society,
very useful in working with Feldpost items.  I suspect they used
Kannapin's efforts in their summary listing of units and associated Feldpost
numbers.

CPT Stephen A.Ingalls
United States Military Academy
West Point

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 09:57:40 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Military ranks

>        From: Warren Thompson <[email-masked]>
>        Subject: Military ranks
>        Date: Thu, 13 Jan 1994 13:18:56 -0500
>
>        Field marshal (one "l" only) seems to be derived from the 13th-C word
>        "mareschal" which originally means "horse servant" or "groom." There
>        is a possibly apocryphal story that the US Army has no such rank becau
se
>        the first one to be eligible was Gen George C. Marshall ... and having
>        a "Marshal Marshall" might have been strange.
>
>        -- Warren Thompson
>
>Well, actually, the U.S. kinda/sorta did have a field marshal:
>
>     During World War I, General Pershing was a four star general, but
>he was dealing with British and French marshals on a daily basis. Some
>in Congress proposed promoting Pershing to Field Marshal, so that he
>would be on an equal footing with his Allies. What they actually did,
>though, was to promote Pershing to "General Of The Armies" [note plural]
>and authorized him to wear 6 stars! Pershing never did add his extra two
>stars.
>
>     During World War II, the rank of "General Of The Army" was created
>with an insignia of 5 stars. So, you might want to think of these two
>ranks as "Lieutenant Field Marshal" and "Field Marshal". ;^)
>
>                                                Regards,
>                                                Bob Kieran
>                                                [email-masked]
>

Bob,
     We get that question here about Pershing often, and as best as any of us
can find, the story of the six stars just isn't true.  Vandiver's biography of
Pershing covers the actual issues best, but basically the title General of the
Armies was just a permanent four-star rank.  Pershing never had
any authorization for more stars than that, and there was never any resolution
to give him more.
                                             LTC Con Crane
                                             USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 08:25:44 LCL
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: AIR: SELECTED GERM

To: [email-masked]
 -=> Quoting [email-masked] to Jim Brady <=-

 Ww> Regarding the story of the 450th bomber squadron:

 Ww> The Germans were quite right in sigle them out for that
 Ww> incident. You dont signal surrender and then attack you captors and
 Ww> expect no retaliations from them. If this were done by many then the
 Ww> act of surrender would mean nothing and surrendering parties would
 Ww> simply be shot down.

I recall in one of Hoyt's U-Boat books that, early in the going off the
Chesapeake coastline, a corvette-sized ship followed up a certain U-boat
sinking by dropping depth charges set shallow on the sailors who had escaped
the sinking. Can't remember the vessels, but seem to remember there were no
survivors of the explosions. The book did not deal with any repercussions from
that particular episode, or whether word of it ever reached Germany during
WWII. But didn't Deonitz order no-prisoners after allied aircraft strafed a sub
that was taking on survivors of the troop ship it torpedoed? Think it was in
the South Atlantic ??
                             Jim
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 12:20:22 -0600
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: U-Boat warfare survivors

Jim,

     I believe it was the Indian Ocean wherein the Germans were
strafed while attempting to rescue survivors.

     Monsarrat, in his novel THE CRUEL SEA, has the corvette
captain depth-bombing freighter survivors (under whom a
positive asdic contact has been made).

     Maybe someone else can tell us what Royal Navy policy was
concerning survivors vs. attacking.

     I have read of U-Boats withholding their torpedofire, on
occasion, to allow rescues.  We certainly weren't as humane in
the South Pacific, but that was very much a different war.

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 23:37:57 +0700
From:    "Peter E. Beal" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Military ranks

On Fri, 14 Jan 1994, Ken Koester wrote:

> On Thu, 13 Jan 1994 13:18:56 -0500 Warren Thompson said:
> >Field marshal (one "l" only) seems to be derived from the 13th-C word
> >"mareschal" which originally means "horse servant" or "groom." There
> >is a possibly apocryphal story that the US Army has no such rank because
> >the first one to be eligible was Gen George C. Marshall ... and having
> >a "Marshal Marshall" might have been strange.
>
> Actually, Pershing would have been eligible, I'm sure.  In fact, Congress
> awarded him an honorary 6th star in the '20s, I believe.
>
The U.S. Army has two ranks (albeit rarely used) higher than General.
One is "General of the Armies", the only holder of which was Pershing.
The other is "General of the Army".  I think only Eisenhower and Bradley
and perhaps Marshall held this rank.  This are five star ranks.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 13:58:22 EST
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: U-Boat warfare survivors

There was also an RAF policy of downing Luftwaffe Air/Sea Rescue
aircraft that were painted white with large Red Cross's on them.
Very quicky the Germans stopped making the rescue aircraft such
bright and inviting color schemes.

For a while the RAF left these aircraft alone, but then switched to
attacking them.  I do not recall what changed the British attitude in
that regardless of the white paint and red cross's that these
aircraft were "military aircraft on military missions" thus open
target.  When examined in conjunction to their own deficiency in Air/Sea
rescue in the early days of the Battle of Britain - it perhaps starts
to make a little more sense.

Ron Babuka

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 14:14:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: General of the Army

Henry H "Hap" Arnold, Commanding General Army Air Forces, also made
5-star rank in WWII.

Wasn't the equivalent rank in the Navy Admiral of the Fleet?

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 15:03:55 EST
From:    Charles Reace <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: U-Boat warfare survivors

[Lou Coatney writes:]
>      I have read of U-Boats withholding their torpedofire, on
> occasion, to allow rescues.  We certainly weren't as humane in
> the South Pacific, but that was very much a different war.

Lou, at the risk of starting a philosophical argument that belongs on
some other list, I have trouble reconciling "humane" behavior with war.
Once you've committed yourself to fighting a war, you've already
agreed to break at least one of the 10 Commandments.  It does not
say "Thou shalt not kill except in time of war if the person is an
enemy soldier."

If I decide to go to war, it makes sense to take prisoners when the
chance arises, so that the enemy will be more willing to surrender the
next time as opposed to fighting to the last man.  And if I take
prisoners myself, then it's more likely my enemy will accept my
surrender should the occaision arise.  But I don't see why I'm expected
to accept an enemy soldier's surrender in the same war when I'm
bombing civilians whom I haven't even given a chance to surrender.

And why not shoot the enemy pilot in his parachute who's bailed out
behind his own lines?  If you don't, he may be back up flying again
tomorrow.  Trained pilots are much harder to produce than airplanes.
Sure he's helpless, but so is the poor draftee cowering in his foxhole
when a 105mm HE round scores a direct hit in the middle of a barage.

Pesonally, if I were a sub skipper and I thought I could get away
with it, I *would* warn a civilian ship and give the crew/passengers
a chance to abandon ship.  But if I thought there was any possibility
they would radio a message to someone who could respond fast enough
to find me and sink me, then chivalry would go out the door in favor
of my crew's safety.

Oh well, I never could resist playing the Devil's Advocate.  B^)

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <[email-masked]>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 15:00:11 EST
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: U-Boat warfare survivors

As a side note to Lou's comments:

>> And why not shoot the enemy pilot in his parachute who's bailed out
>> behind his own lines?  If you don't, he may be back up flying again
>> tomorrow.  Trained pilots are much harder to produce than airplanes.

I have read in several books a story relating to Francis Grabeski (I
hope I spelled his name correctly) the top American Ace of the European
Theater.  Francis recalled getting into a dogfight with a FW-190 while
escorting a bomber mission over Europe.  This chap was giving Grabeski
all kinds of fits in his FW-190 and at a couple of points almost nailed
Grabeski.  After a long duke-out Grabeski mortally wounded the Focke-Wolf,
and the German pilot dumped his canopy and got one of his legs over the
side.  Upon seeing this, Grabeski decided that if this pilot was ever
able to get back on the ground again, that he was going to end up killing
more Allied pilot.  Grabeski felt that he had no option but to "knock"
the German pilot back into the cockpit with another burst from his .50
machine guns.

Ron Babuka

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 15:28:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Firing on U-boats

RE: The Brits shooting at surfaced U-boats

The way I heard the story was that early in the war, most if not
all U-boat commanders would give the crew of a merchant vessel a
chance to abandon ship before it was sunk.  However, the British
Admiralty issued orders that merchant vessels were to immediately
radio the position of any U-boats that were encountered.  The
U-boat commanders took a dim view of having their position
advertised to the world but some of them continued to let the crew
abandon ship before sinking it but I believe some U-boats were
attacked based upon the radio message so the U-boat commanders began
sinking merchant vessels without warning.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 12:24:03 EST
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Military ranks

To Bill Huber, et al:

Yes, General Pershing was given the title General of the Armies.
This was to put him on a par with the field marshals in the
British and French armies.

However, I can't find anywhere any info about a 6 star rank.

Bear

>In Bob's message of 13 Jan 1994 at 1632 CST, he writes:
>
>> ..... What they actually did,
>> though, was to promote Pershing to "General Of The Armies" [note plural]
>> and authorized him to wear 6 stars! Pershing never did add his extra two
>> stars.
>>                              Bob Kieran
>
>Hi Bob,
>
>Zow!  I never heard that.  Do you remember where you saw that?  I
>know there is a precedent when George Washington was titled General
>of the Armies but no insignia was established at that time (that I am
>aware of).  Never heard about Pershing's 6 star promotion though.  He
>did wear five though, didn't he?  Seems like I have a double page
>poster out of a 1918 _Harpers Weekly_ that shows him with the 5 star
>configuration.  I'll have to double check, that alzheimers may be
>working on me again....
>
>Historians up!  Con, Bear what's the Army position?
>
>Cheers, Bill Huber / [email-masked]
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 21:46:02 GMT
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <[email-masked]>
Subject: U-boat warnings/risks

        Hi to all,
        I would like to point out that most if not all commanders of
German u-boats early in the war issued a warning before sinking merchant
vessels and also used the  88mm cannon when at all possible to safe
their own precius torpedoes (only 14 onboard).
        U.506, U.507 and U.156 put themselves into great risk when they
attempted to rescue the survivors of U.156 victim by mistake 'RMS
Laconia' the boats were attacked by USA bomber even if all the boats
were flying the Red Cross. In the end around 1000 passengers and Italian
POWs were rescued by French Vichy ships but the U-boats had in the end
to dump the survivors in order to safe themselves. It was after that
incident that Donitz issued the Laconia-order which ordered the
commander not to pick up survivors.
        Gunnar Lassen on U.160 (a truly great commander) even sent
Winston Churchill a personal radio message and asked him to come and
safe they survivors of one of his victims! He gave up his exact position
to speed the recovery of the survivors (he could not take them himself).

Gudmundur Helgason

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 13:59:10 -0800
From:    Jim Benn <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: General of the Army

Didn't Douglas MacArthur have some kind of "Field Marshal" rank from the
Phillipine government just prior to WWII? As I recall he was in some kind
of detached service/retirement from the US Army; did this rank carry with
him back into active service?

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 16:51:53 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Military ranks

In reply to the mail from <[email-masked]>...
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>Date:         Fri, 14 Jan 1994 23:37:57 +0700
>Reply-To: World War II Discussion List <[email-masked]>
>Sender: World War II Discussion List <[email-masked]>
>From: "Peter E. Beal" <[email-masked]>
>Subject:      Re: Military ranks
>X-To:         World War II Discussion List <[email-masked]>
>To: Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <[email-masked]>
>In-Reply-To:  <[email-masked]>
>
>On Fri, 14 Jan 1994, Ken Koester wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 13 Jan 1994 13:18:56 -0500 Warren Thompson said:
>> >Field marshal (one "l" only) seems to be derived from the 13th-C word
>> >"mareschal" which originally means "horse servant" or "groom." There
>> >is a possibly apocryphal story that the US Army has no such rank because
>> >the first one to be eligible was Gen George C. Marshall ... and having
>> >a "Marshal Marshall" might have been strange.
>>
>> Actually, Pershing would have been eligible, I'm sure.  In fact, Congress
>> awarded him an honorary 6th star in the '20s, I believe.
>>
>The U.S. Army has two ranks (albeit rarely used) higher than General.
>One is "General of the Armies", the only holder of which was Pershing.
>The other is "General of the Army".  I think only Eisenhower and Bradley
>and perhaps Marshall held this rank.  This are five star ranks.
>
FYI
Marshall, Eisenhower, MacArthur, Bradley and Arnold all held the
five-star General of the Army rank.

I believe that King, Nimitz, Leahy, and possibly Halsey held a
five-star Admiral's rank.  I don't the title that went with the
rank, though.
Jim

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-8760
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-8760

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 16:54:21 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: U-Boat warfare survivors

In Charles' message of 14 Jan 1994 at 1502 CST, he writes:

> Pesonally, if I were a sub skipper and I thought I could get away
> with it, I *would* warn a civilian ship and give the crew/passengers
> a chance to abandon ship.  But if I thought there was any possibility
> they would radio a message to someone who could respond fast enough
> to find me and sink me, then chivalry would go out the door in favor
> of my crew's safety.

Hi Charles,

Remember too, the British "Q-ships" of the First World War.  They
were armed freighters with false deck houses that would drop when the
U-boat would surface to sink the ship with its deck gun.  The U-boat
would surface and signal the lone freighter that they were about to
be sunk.  "Panic Parties" would drop life boats and make it look like
the crew was preparing to abandon when the deck houses would drop and
hidden deck guns would open up on the U-boat.  At that time it was
common for an officer from the U-boat to retrieve the log from the
ship about to be sunk.  The Q-ships ended that.

Torpedoes used to be very expensive (still are I guess) but in WWI
the Germans would use the deck gun when they could.  Again, Q-ships
changed that policy.

Cheers, Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 16:20:23 EST
From:    Ingalls Steven CPT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: U-Boat warfare survivors

Sorry I missed the original posting about shooting pilots who've bailed out of
their crippled fighters.

However, while a practical consideration, moral behavior and the Laws of
Warfare define the pilot of a crippled aircraft getting into parachute as a
non-combatant.  As your discussion rightfully points out, that status is
certainly to change once rejoining his unit.  However, I believe in the
strictest sense to have engaged pilots in parachutes is a war crime.

I apologize if this has nothing to do with the original question/comment.
Simply thought it was relevant.

CPT Stephen Ingalls
United States Military Academy
West Point

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Jan 1994 15:10:59 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Firing on U-boats

Ubboats sinking Allied merchant ships without warning was also more
efficient....

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 13 Jan 1994 to 14 Jan 1994
*************************************************