Subject: WWII-L Digest - 5 Jan 1994 to 6 Jan 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 1994 00:00:29 -0500

There are 20 messages totalling 574 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Queen Mary
  2. Help set RELEVANT MAIL
  3. GERMAN VETS
  4. WWII Casualty Figures (4)
  5. GEN: Charging Windmills (8)
  6. GERMAN VETERANS
  7. The List...
  8. Correction on Soviet population losses
  9. Soviet losses at end of the war
 10. Prchal

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Jan 1994 11:00:55 CET
From:    "LTC Donnell, Doug" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Queen Mary

Hello to everyone.  I'm new to the list and have been enjoying the
information and exchanges for the past month or so.  Reading about the
QEI and Q Mary as troop ships I thought I'd jump in and add my $.02.

My dad told me once about his trip to England, in style, aboard the
Queen Mary.  As was mentioned in the other postings, there were over
10000 troops on board (actually about 15000 as I recall).  As a 2Lt
my father got a 1st class stateroom which he shared with about 7
others.  They were so packed in that the last cot went into place
only after the door was closed (hence you didn't want to have to get
up for any reason in the middle of the night).  Also, as an officer
he told me that he actually got to SIT for dinner.  The enlisted troops
went through the serving line, ate on the move, and turned in their
trays at the end of the line.  Needless to say everyone was much
relieved to finally make it to England.

                           Doug Donnell
                           Ruppertsweiler, Germany

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Jan 1994 12:11:09 +0100
From:    Allan Myrvang <[email-masked]>
Subject: Help set RELEVANT MAIL

A cry for help!

First I would like to wish you all a happy new year and the
peace negotiators, wherever they strive to reduce hostilities
and atrocities, may they be more successful in 1994 than in the
year we have left behind us!!

Then I would be grateful to get some help. I would of course
like to be a full member of the WW II-conference, but then there
is the volume of messages to consider. My telephone bill would
soar, I'm afraid. Hence, it would be more practical for me to
to be able to get discussions under specific subject headings,
say < WW II Mysteries >. I'm choosing this reference on purpose.
The fact is that I in last August asked you some questions about
Hitler and Stalin under this Subject Title, and I intended to take
part in the possible discussion, should my provocative questions
lead to one, but then I got the victim of a total system collapse
and only now am I ready to resume where I was before I was thrown
off the cart....

In other words : What should I write to LISTSERV to get only what
I find to be relevant mail (remember the phone bill)? If I would go
on discussing < WW II Mysteries > for instance?

Thanks in advance!
Allan Myrvang
Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Jan 1994 07:28:00 -0500
From:    Kevin Kamphaus <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GERMAN VETS

Bored! No way. I would love to read some of these personal accounts. Would it
be possible to send out some of the more remarkable stories to the list? Maybe
without using names.  And a question, are a lot of these men afraid of public
scorn or retribution, and thats why they are reluctant to correspond with you?

Kevin Kamphaus
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Jan 1994 07:53:11 EST
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WWII Casualty Figures

On Wed, 5 Jan 1994 16:34:41 EST Cathy Lewis said:
>The figure of 12 million in the camps is consistent with what I have heard (6
>million jews, and 6 million "others" including slav "guest workers'). I fear t
>hat those figures are at best an approximation, but they make the point. The
>total casual figure is a bit more problematic. 25 million, I assume only
>accounts for the war in Europe (1939-45). That figure does not take into
>account the more recent Soviet figure of 35 million in losses during the war.

I've always heard 50+ million for WWII, at least 20+ million for the USSR,
6 million Jews, 6 million Poles--but the categories overlap:  3 million
Polish Jews, 3 million Polish Catholics--4 million Russian P.O.W.s, etc.
I doubt anyone really has a definitive answer to the question; I've seen
estimates as high as 100 million--although that may be including WWI & all
the nastiness in between.  I find this all induces number numbness once I
run out of fingers & toes (or, at least, go stones in my case); the mind
really can't visualize a million of anything & I suspect at times that the
enumerators have all run into the same problem.

ken koester
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Jan 1994 08:55:58 EST
From:    Doug McCabe <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN: Charging Windmills

                   Ohio University Electronic Communication

   Date:  06-Jan-1994 08:54am EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"[email-masked]" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject:  GEN: Charging Windmills

Received:  06-Jan-1994 08:55am

                   Ohio University Electronic Communication

   Date:  04-Jan-1994 04:19pm EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"[email-masked]" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject: GEN: Charging Windmills

    I have just been informed I will be going to The Netherlands for about
    a week beginning on about the 14th of January.  This is in relation to
    the planning for the 50th anniversary of MARKET-GARDEN.  It looks
    assured that Ohio University will put on display materials from the
    Cornelius Ryan collection relating to his book _A Bridge Too Far_.  We
    are sure to do a display in Nijmegen and might do the same in Groesbeek
    and Eindhoven.  Obviously, we're concentrating on the American areas of
    operation for the events in September. <I guess you could say we're
    siding with the Allied winners in the operation.>

    As plans now stand, we'll visit Amsterdam, The Hague, and then do
    "Hell's Highway" from Eindhoven through Nijmegen to Arnhem.  There will
    be stops along the way to visit officials, museums, and sites.  Any of
    you have suggestions on where we should go, what we should see, anyone
    we should meet?

    Doug McCabe
    [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Jan 1994 09:23:16 EST
From:    Charles Reace <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: Charging Windmills

>     and Eindhoven.  Obviously, we're concentrating on the American areas of
>     operation for the events in September. <I guess you could say we're
>     siding with the Allied winners in the operation.>

Hmmm... As I recall, the 82nd had not yet captured the Nijmegen bridge
when 30 corps arrived, even though 30 corps gave them a lot of extra time
to do so.  Does this constitute winning?

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <[email-masked]>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Jan 1994 09:45:00 +0500
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: GEN: Charging Windmills

Hello, I'm new to this discussion list and I've just been kind of browsing
until now.  The whole question of the "winners" in MARKET GARDEN (even though
it was obviously made in jest) is really none of the allies.  Even though the
corridor was held after the operation was over, the result was costly and
inconclusive.  The area could no be used as a springboard into the Rhineland
(as Monty wanted - On to Berlin!) until the spring, and the Dutch in Ahrnem was
the subject of terrible retribution from the Germans.  So did either ally win?
Hardly, the Germans "won" a costly victory to buy a month or two of breathing
space that allowed the Soviets to penetrate deeper into Germany by war's end,
and kept the Western allies from reaching Berlin first.  So who won?  The
Soviets, to my way of thinking.

John Horner
SUNY at Delhi

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Jan 1994 09:21:26 -0500
From:    "M. Joseph Barone" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WWII Casualty Figures

From: Ken Koester <[email-masked]>:
> I've always heard 50+ million for WWII, at least 20+ million for the USSR,
> 6 million Jews, 6 million Poles--but the categories overlap:  3 million
> Polish Jews, 3 million Polish Catholics--4 million Russian P.O.W.s, etc.
> I doubt anyone really has a definitive answer to the question; I've seen
> estimates as high as 100 million--although that may be including WWI & all
> the nastiness in between.

Even using a figure of 50 millions, this is a significant percentage
of the human population at the time.  Have there been any studies
to determine what the world's population would be today if WWII had
not occurred?  Just curious.
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
These tanks are faster than any other tanks in the European theater
of operations, forwards or backwards.  See, man, we like to feel that
we can get out of trouble quicker than we got into it.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Jan 1994 16:13:40 +0100
From:    John Ausland <[email-masked]>
Subject: GERMAN VETERANS

  Oslo, January 6.  FOR TERRY MOORE
  I am deeply impressed by the work you have done in gathering information
from German veterans and hope you will make it readily available to researchers
at some point.
  Have you written anything based on this work?
  I wish I had known about you when I was doing research for my book LETTERS
HOME.  As it was, I had to rely mainly on the multi-volume series of interviews
with German generals right after the war, edited by Detwiler.  I found this
extremely interesting, since I was able to read the views of the generals
commanding the units we faught at various places and to quote them in my book.
  There is one thing that really puzzles me.  During the war, I tried to keep
the Germans and the Hitler regime separate in my mind.  As the war wore on,
however, I found this more and more difficult.  By the time we crossed the
Rhine, we were really angry and, as a result, destructive.  It was clear the
Germans had lost the war, but they kept on fighting us until a few days before
VE-Day.  This led to our destroying the beautiful town of Ellwangen, near
Munich, a story I tell in my book and will perhaps tell here when that
anniversary approaches.
  When reading the Detwiler series, the thing that struck me was that all the
generals criticized how Hitler conducted the war, but I found none that were
critical of the fact that he conducted it.
  What have you found when talking with the Germans you have interviewed?
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway
  PS  I was living in Wichita Falls when I enlisted in the Army shortly after
Pearl Harbor.  Before that, I lived in Childress as a boy and worked at KVWC in
Vernon for awhile.  My father worked for the railroad.  My mother lived in
Amarillo for awhile after my father, brother, and I went into the services.
Hence, I have been to Amarillo many times but not for a half century.  I have
pleasant memories of a girl I knew there.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Jan 1994 11:09:49 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: The List...

>I too am pleased with the people and the subjects and the way both are dealt
>with on this listserv. I withdrew from the V-WAR listserv due to the FLAME-
>WARS  some people commonly had. Disagreements will happen but just because
>you disagree doesn't make the others stupid, rude, loud, etc...
>Enough, Enough, Enough...
>    Changing subjects, has anyone read or heard of any books dealing with
>the war/battles between Finland and Germany and or Finland and Russia??
>All help appreciated!! In advance I thank you!!
>
>                                               Michael Oaks
>
>                             _______
>Michael Oaks                | TRUST,|
>Kennesaw State College      |   o  _|_____
>P.O. BOX 444                |___|_|  BUT  |
>Mareitta, Ga. 30061               |   o  _|_____
>[email-masked]        |___|_|VERIFY.|
>(404)499-3049  FAX # (404)423-6541      |   o   |
>                                        |___|___|
>

Michael,
     I swear we just discussed this, maybe on another net, though.  Look at
V.A. Tanner, THE WINTER WAR and Marshal Mannerheim's MEMOIRS.
                                                  LTC Con Crane
                                                  USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Jan 1994 11:37:32 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: Charging Windmills

In Doug's message of  6 Jan 1994 at 0807 CST, he writes:

>     As plans now stand, we'll visit Amsterdam, The Hague, and then do
>     "Hell's Highway" from Eindhoven through Nijmegen to Arnhem.  There will
>     be stops along the way to visit officials, museums, and sites.  Any of
>     you have suggestions on where we should go, what we should see, anyone
>     we should meet?
>
>     Doug McCabe
>     [email-masked]

YOU LUCKY DOG!!!!!!!

What a sweet deal.  Man.....  Yeah, if you get a chance to visit
Belgium and Luxembourg go see the Victory Museum near Arlon,
Luxembourg.  Its absolutely astonishing.  There are minor errors with
some of the uniformed dummies (Army NCOs with Luftwaffe operational
flying clasps) but the vehicles are fabulous.  You won't be
disappointed.  The museum is run by the same folks who run the
Bastogne Historical Center in Bastogne, Belgium.  That museum is the
first of its kind and is worth visiting but is eclipsed by its
younger brother in Arlon.  If you get to visit Diekirch, there is a
Battle of the Bulge museum there which is quite nice too.

I realize these are Battle of the Bulge museums but they are the ones
I have been to and are excellent museums.  The town of Tongern in
Holland is said to be home of the largest Flea Market in Europe
(debatable) but some WWII items pop up there.  I got a rare German
secure paper tape teletype (that a local's father liberated from a
command vehicle during the war) on my visit there.  It was the kind
of device that could send and receive messages when hooked to the
encryption device and then the radio.  Shame he didn't lift the
encryption device too.  The guy's dad though he could modify it and
use it as a typewriter but never got around to fooling with it (thank
God).  Never know what you'll find in flea markets.

Check them out if you get a chance.

Regards,  Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Jan 1994 14:30:29 -0500
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WWII Casualty Figures

Cathy, I just recently heard in lecture (on a course studying the
holocaust) that the Japanese were responsible for the deaths of some 20
million Chinese during the war.  I'm not sure if this figure is for both
military and civilians or for civilians only.  I'll make sure to ask in
the next lecture (Tuesday).  Just thought you'd be interested.
David Rising
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Jan 1994 14:41:33 -0500
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: Charging Windmills

On Thu, 6 Jan 1994 [email-masked] wrote:

> Hello, I'm new to this discussion list and I've just been kind of browsing
> until now.  The whole question of the "winners" in MARKET GARDEN (even though
> it was obviously made in jest) is really none of the allies.  Even though the
> corridor was held after the operation was over, the result was costly and
> inconclusive.  The area could no be used as a springboard into the Rhineland
> (as Monty wanted - On to Berlin!) until the spring, and the Dutch in Ahrnem was
> the subject of terrible retribution from the Germans.  So did either ally win?
> Hardly, the Germans "won" a costly victory to buy a month or two of breathing
> space that allowed the Soviets to penetrate deeper into Germany by war's end,
> and kept the Western allies from reaching Berlin first.  So who won?  The
> Soviets, to my way of thinking.
>
> John Horner
> SUNY at Delhi
>
John, if you use this line of reasoning, the Allied grunts won out in the
end.  The Soviets were "allowed" to take both Berlin and Prague by the
Western Allies.  In other words, the Soviets were "allowed" to lose
countless men in bitter fighting over symbolic cities while the Western
Allies played in the Elbe.  After the war, the Red Army withdrew from
both of these cities and they became a part of the joint occupation.  It
wasn't until later that they (not Berlin but E. Germany and Czech.) came
under total Soviet control.
David Rising
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Jan 1994 14:01:52 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: Charging Windmills

David states that the Red Army lost countless men on their way to Berlin
and Prague.  Just how many is countless?  In other words, what was the
extent of the resistance they encountered?

And while it may be true that the Red Army left Czechoslovakia in 1945
(I don't know the facts on that) but the Soviet Union was undoubtedly
exerting effective control in Czehoslovakia, having received 40 percent
of the vote in 1946.

But I would be interested in a more complete discussion of this point..

  =========================================================================
  | DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
  |                                  | Computers in Business & Education. |
  | Recently returned from my second | Education:  Curriculum development.|
  |   extended stay in Prague.       |    International Education, TEFL.  |
  |                                  | Central Europe:  Post revolution   |
  | Working on second book about     |    economic, social, political     |
  |   Prague and new Czech Republic. |    problems and opportunities.     |
  | E-Mail:                          | Free lance writing and editing.    |
  |   USA:  [email-masked]    | Stamp collecting.                  |
  =========================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Jan 1994 15:09:39 EST
From:    Cathy Lewis <[email-masked]>
Subject: Correction on Soviet population losses

The study on losses in population growth resulting from World War II on the
USSR was not done by Murray Feshbach, but was a Soviet study. The estimate was
that by 1959, the Soviet Union had 50 million fewer people than it would have,
had normal population growth continued from 1941. This study takes into
account the slowed population recovery due to the absence of males first the
first generation after the war. The citation is: V.V. Pokshiishevskii,
_Geografiia naseleniia sssr: ekonomiko-geograficheskie ocherki_ (Moscow,
Proveshchenie, 1971).

Would you all find it useful to tally up the numbers? Now that we've gotten
this far, I would find it instructive to know exactly what magnitude we're
talking about. With only figures on the Soviets, concentration camp victims
and Chin a, I have a total of 62 million (77 million, if one counts the
morerecent Soviet numbers). It there a classic article out there on this
subject? And does anyone know what the world population was in 1939? I'll be
keeping a tally as the numbers come in. Right now, we seem to be talking about
5%+ of the world population dying within the period of one decade.

Cathleen S. Lewis ([email-masked])
National Air and Space Museum
Smithsonian Institution

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Jan 1994 15:15:36 EST
From:    Cathy Lewis <[email-masked]>
Subject: Soviet losses at end of the war

I don't have the numbers in front of me (my copy of Erickson is at home), but
the common wisdom was that the Soviet Army suffered slightly more than half of
its losses on the advance from Stalingrad to Berlin. It's worth noting that
they lost two men for every German soldier killed *while advancing against the
Germans.* As far as how many of these losses were due to actual fightingand
how may resulted from NKVD rear guard action, that's a good question.

Cathleen S. Lewis ([email-masked])
National Air and Space Museum
Smithsonian Institution

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Jan 1994 15:58:18 -0600
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: WWII Casualty Figures

Cathy,

     An authoritative source which still has credibility is Iosif
Dyadkin's UNNATURAL DEATHS ....  Dyadkin was a geologist in Kalinin
who published in 1984 his estimate of 20 million dead of Stalinism.
For his trouble, he spent some time in the Gulag -- Yes!  even in
1984.

     It is a smallish little thing, but Robert -- THE GREAT TERROR
and STALIN:  BREAKER OF NATIONS -- Conquest (of the Hoover Institute)
thinks highly of it.

     There has for a long time been a bitter debate waged by leftist
historians questioning Stalinist deaths anywhere over 5-7 million
people.

     It is of great importance to some people who exterminated more
people:  Hitler (to enforce racism) or Stalin (to enforce political
correctness).   ... which exterminated more people: ...

     I briefly covered this sordid debate in my thesis about the
Katyn Massacre's challenge to the West(ern intelligentsia).

Lou Coatney, Western Illinois University, Macomb, Illinois

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Jan 1994 00:29:19 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Prchal

> Thanks, Emmanuel, for the update.  I wonder if he was teaching
>   Czech at the Defense Dept.'s language school in Monterey(?)

I don't know... All I've read about Prchals later life is ten
lines at the end of an article...

Emmanuel.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Jan 1994 19:05:00 +0500
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: GEN: Charging Windmills

David, you bring up a number of interesting points.  While it is true
that the Soviets were "allowed" to take Berlin and Prague by the Western
Allies because of the Rankin-C joint agreement (that defined the post-
war boundaries of central europe), Churchill, among others vehemently
pushed for an all out push to take Berlin.  And, indeed, the Germans
themselves seemed much happier to surrender to the Western Allies than
the Soviets.  In the final weeks of the war, rumours spread around  Ber-
lin that the Americans were on their way, if the western front could
 just hold out.  Of course, this is not to say that the g
germans would have simply withdrew and allowed the Americans and British
to waltz into Berlin, but the fanatical resistance put up vs. the Russians
probably would not have occurred in the east.  My original point was that
if MARKET GARDEN had not occurred, the terrible supply situation may have
lessened (Patton, for one, was very upset that MARKET GARDEN was using
up "his" supplies) and the drive to Berlin may have been even more swift.
It is only a matter of speculation, but it is not out of the realm of
possiblity that an earlier thrust into the rhineland, with the Soviets
still regrouping on the Vistula, would have been allowed to continue on
to Berlin.
Thanks for replying, David, I look forward to your next comments.

John Horner
SUNY at Delhi
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Jan 1994 21:13:39 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: Charging Windmills

I am very interested in the conversation about Prague and Berlin, and how
the Russians and the United States ended up where they did.

As I remember my history, Roosevelt, Stalin, and Churchill agreed to give
to Stalin the right to enter PRague first.  In fact, according to one of
my Czech friends, he told me that General Patton (or possibly a member
of his unit) entered Prague and offered to come in if he got an invitation.
But he was not asked.  As a result, hundreds of Czechs were killed as
they resisted the Germans until General Vlasov entered the city.

But the story is hazy for me from here on.  Does anybody know the story of
General Vlasov and how he was subsequently treated.  I understand that the
Soviets considered him a traitor, but I don't know the story.

Can anyone help me?

  =========================================================================
  | DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
  |                                  | Computers in Business & Education. |
  | Recently returned from my second | Education:  Curriculum development.|
  |   extended stay in Prague.       |    International Education, TEFL.  |
  |                                  | Central Europe:  Post revolution   |
  | Working on second book about     |    economic, social, political     |
  |   Prague and new Czech Republic. |    problems and opportunities.     |
  | E-Mail:                          | Free lance writing and editing.    |
  |   USA:  [email-masked]    | Stamp collecting.                  |
  =========================================================================

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 5 Jan 1994 to 6 Jan 1994
***********************************************