Subject: WWII-L Digest - 10 Jan 1994 to 11 Jan 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 1994 00:01:00 -0500

There are 35 messages totalling 1077 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Gen. Vlasov (2)
  2. David Irving (5)
  3. [email-masked] (4)
  4. USAAF 4-9Jan44/ B-17 vs. B-24 question
  5. USAAF 11 JAN 44
  6. B-17 vs. B-24
  7. Plan Orange (3)
  8. B-24 wing hits;  Thanks for responses
  9. U.S. "betrayal" of Gen. Vlasov and Waffen-SS (2)
 10. Japanese war motives -- Response to Carl W.
 11. B-24 ditching trivia (2)
 12. TECH/TAC: DeGaulle as a 'blitzkrieg' proponent? (2)
 13. GEN: Charging Windmills
 14. TRV: The Three Concentric Circles (2)
 15. Latvian Legion
 16. Yamamoto's plan
 17. SS Units.
 18. GERMAN VETERANS
 19. Air: selected German targets
 20. B-25s
 21. ADMIN: Listowner working with one foot in a bucket.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 00:13:39 -0600
From:    Jon Stevens <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Gen. Vlasov

George and all,

I will get more info on Gen. Vlasov this week but a couple of facts came
to mind.  I'm fairly certain that Vlasov was executed in 1948.  A few
sentances in _Pravda_ anounced that he had been executed for crimes against
the Soviet Union.  I think that Thorwald writes that no information exists
on the period of Vlasov's Soviet imprisonment (1945-48).  Maybe some
researcher will find some files in the Soviet archives pertaining to Vlasov's
interrogations and finish the story of Gen. Vlasov.  I'll bet he didn't get a
trial before his execution.

Regarding how Vlasov ended up near Prague, I think that there were two
reasons.  One being the Russian Army of Liberation was following the
general retreat of the Germans.  Another reason was that the two divisions
of the R.A.L. was forming up somewhere in Czechoslovakia.  I will also try to
find out the exact reason for Vlasov's turn against the Germans.  I may be
wrong but I think that Vlasov was supporting the Czech nationalists and
not the Czech Communists in the liberation of Prague. This was the only
battle that the R.A.L. fought as a unit.  Thorwald does say that there
were a few large units of Russians setup by frontline German divisions
earlier in the war but this was discouraged by the German command.

All this was from memory, I'll get the Thorwald book tomorrow and some
more info later in the week.

Jon Stevens     e mail -- [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 01:24:34 CST
From:    Steve Alvin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: David Irving

Steve Baldwin asked about Irving's books on subjects other than
those dealing with the Holocaust.  Well, the commander of the
naval escort of Convoy PQ 17 successfully sued Irving for libel
over his portrait of him in *The Destruction of Convoy PQ 17.*

--
Steve Alvin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 01:48:21 CST
From:    Steve Alvin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [email-masked]

One possible source of Yamamoto's plan to attack Pearl Harbor may
have been the writings of Hector Bywater, naval correspondent of
the *London Times*.  In 1921 he published the book *Sea Power in
the Pacific*, and in 1925 expanded this work into the novel *The
Great Pacific War*  In these books, Bywater envisions a Japanese
surprise attack on the U. S. fleet at Pearl Harbor.  Simultaneously,
they would attack Guam and the Philippines, landing at Lingayen Gulf.
The Naval General Staff in Tokyo had *Sea Power* translated and
distributed among its officers and *War* was adopted into the
curriculum at the Naval War College.

Yamamoto was naval attache in Washington in 1925 when *War* was
published.  It is hard to imagine that he was not aware of the
book.  It was featured on page one of teh New York Times Book
Review.

--
Steve Alvin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 01:52:59 CST
From:    Steve Alvin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: USAAF 4-9Jan44/ B-17 vs. B-24 question

As someone who had the Saab turbo-prop he was riding it de-iced
THREE times while waiting to take off from Peoria last thursday,
it is easy to understand the problems with icing!

With all the comparision between the B-17 and B-24, I'd like to
throw in these stats:

Bomb tonnage dropped in the ETO

B-17's 640,036 tons

B-24's 452,508 tons

All other U. S. aircraft  463,544

--
Steve Alvin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 07:17:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: USAAF 11 JAN 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
TUESDAY, 11 JANUARY 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  Me 110, Messerschmitt
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 36 A-36's, P-51's, and P-40's
pound an encampment containing about 4,900 troops and a large quantity of
supplies, causing considerable damage by accurate bombing and strafing.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): Before daylight 14 Japanese bombers hit the
airfield at Suichwan, China; during the morning 3 medium bombers and 15
fighters follow up with a second strike; 7 P-51's and 5 P-40's intercept the
second attack, claiming 3 medium bombers shot down. 8 B-24's bomb the harbor,
aluminum plant, and airfield at Takao, Formosa; 1 bombs oil storage at
Swatow, China. 4 B-24's mine harbors at Takao and Hong Kong; 1 B-24 is lost.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 182. Three aviation
industry targets in Germany are hit; fierce opposition estimated at 500
Luftwaffe fighters is encountered and 60 bombers and 5 fighters are lost.
  1. 177 B-17's are dispatched to Oschersleben; 139 hit the primary and 20
hit targets of opportunity; they claim 174-32-63 Luftwaffe aircraft; 34
B-17's are lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 83 damaged; casualties are 9
KIA, 11 WIA and 349 MIA.
  2. 114 B-17's are dispatched to Halberstadt; 52 hit the primary and 55 hit
targets of opportunity; they claim 35-11-19 Luftwaffe aircraft; 8 B-17's are
lost, 1 is damaged beyond repair and 42 damaged; casualties are 1 KIA, 18 WIA
and 81 MIA.
  177 P-47's and 44 Ninth Air Force P-51's escort; they claim 29-11-14
Luftwaffe aircraft; 2 P-47's are lost, 3 damaged beyond repair and 4 P-47's
and 1 P-51 are damaged; casualties are 2 KIA and 2 MIA. Major James H Howard,
a P-51 pilot of the 354th Fighter Group, shot down an Me 110 and then found
himself the lone escort for a B-17 group being attacked by 30 Luftwaffe
aircraft. For the next 30 minutes, he kept turning into the enemy fighters
and firing until only one gun was firing; by this time, he was credited with
2-1-2 Luftwaffe aircraft and saved the B-17's. Major Howard was awarded the
Medal of Honor.
  3. 234 B-17's and 138 B-24's are dispatched to Brunswick; 47 B-17's hit the
primary, 114 hit Osnabruck, 25 hit Bielefeld, 22 hit Peine, 10 hit Herford
and 1 hit Nienburg; no B-24's hit the primary, 58 hit Meppen, 1 hits Lingen
and 7 hit other targets; they claim 19-17-16 Luftwaffe aircraft; 16 B-17's
and 2 B-24's are lost, 1 each damaged beyond repair and 47 B-17's and 7
B-24's damaged; casualties are 5 WIA and 176 MIA. This mission is escorted by
49 P-38's and 322 P-47's; they claim 2-1-2 Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 P-38 and 2
P-47's are lost and 1 P-47 is damaged; casualties are 1 MIA. Among the PFF
aircraft are 4 B-24's, this being the first time B-24's are used in this
capacity.
  HQ 96th Combat Bombardment Wing (Heavy) is activated at Horsham St Faith,
England.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

 STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): B-17's, with P-38 escort, bomb
the harbor at Piraeus, Greece; they destroy 8 attacking fighters; 6 B-17's
are lost in midair collisions in the heavy overcast.
  Transfers in Italy:
  HQ 82d Fighter Group and 95th, 96th and 97th Fighter Squadrons from Lecce
to Vincenzo Airfield with P-38's.
  HQ 456th Bombardment Group (Heavy) and 744th, 745th, 746th and 747th
Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy) to Cerignola from the US with B-24's; first
mission is 10 Feb.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-26's attack the iron
and steel works at Piombino during the night of 10/11 Jan; during the day,
B-25's bomb Falconara (hitting the railroad junction) and railroad yards at
Fabriano; P-40's and A-36's blast defenses and gun positions in Cervaro-Monte
Trocchio, a gun position N of Minturno, the towns of Sora and Isola del Liri,
road traffic in the Macerata-Aquila-Popoli area, and railroad facilities at
San Giorgio del Sannio.
  Transfers:
  HQ 87th Fighter Wing to Nouvion, Algeria from the US.
  84th and 85th Bombardment Squadrons (Light), 47th Bombardment Group
(Light), from Vincenzo Airfield to Vesuvius Airfield, Italy with A-20's.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): In the Marshall Islands, 9
B-25's from Tarawa Atoll, Gilbert Islands hit 5 vessels and land
installations at Maloelap Atoll; a 5000-ton cargo ship and a small vessel are
sunk; 4 P-39's from Makin Island, Gilbert Islands dive-bomb and strafe
runways on Mille Atoll.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): About 90 Allied fighters
cover 60+ US Navy (USN) dive bombers attacking the Cape Saint George area,
New Ireland Island. 2 flights of P-39's strafe targets of opportunity from
Numa Numa to Koromira, Bougainville Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, B-25's,
P-39's, and P-40's hit Uligan Harbor, barges and the road near Bogadjim, the
Hansa Bay area, and the town of Alexishafen.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 07:26:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: B-17 vs. B-24

RE: The discussion yesterday about the higher loss of B-24's vs. B-17's

You cannot look at one mission and decide which aircraft had a higher loss
rate.  For example, consider today 50 years ago, i.e., 11 Jan 44.

B-17's: 58 of 485 B-17's were lost = 12% loss rate
B-24's: 2 of 66 B-24's were lost = 3% loss rate

One of these days, as soon as I clean up back issues of the AAF Combat
Chronology, I am going to write a program to analyze the losses of various
aircraft by month which will give a clearer indication of what was
happening when.

Stay tuned, same time, same station.

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 07:42:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Plan Orange

Unfortunately, I cannot remember where I read about Plan Orange, the
US Plan to attack the Japanese in the Pacific to "save" the Philippines, but
the thread in the book was that Plan Orange was unworkable and the US
military brass knew it but they "had to have a plan", i.e., there had to
be a plan to come to MacArthur's aid in the Philippines in the event of
Japanese attack to deliver supplies and reinforcements.  As I remember it,
Australia was not considered as a stopping point; in the event of an attack
on the Philippines, the US Navy would form a supply convoy at Pearl Harbor,
and go sailing off across the Pacific through those Japanese mandated islands
to save MacArthur ala, here comes the cavalry to the rescue.  The thought of
sailing old 20-knot battleships across the Pacific through Japanese-mandated
islands is ludicrous and both the Army and Navy knew it but they had their
plan.

As an aside, I also remember reading that some Naval aviators were not
exactly devistated when those old 20-knot battleships were sunk or damaged
at Pearl Harbor.  The older BB's could not keep up with the carriers and
the aviators were afraid they would have to slow down to stay with the
battleships.  It wasn't until the newer BB's, i.e., North Carolina, Iowa,
etc. class ships were commissioned, that the Navy have BB's that could keep
up with the carriers.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 09:34:25 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: David Irving

>Steve Baldwin asked about Irving's books on subjects other than
>those dealing with the Holocaust.  Well, the commander of the
>naval escort of Convoy PQ 17 successfully sued Irving for libel
>over his portrait of him in *The Destruction of Convoy PQ 17.*
>
>--
>Steve Alvin
>[email-masked]
>

To echo what Steve said, Irving also had to retract the casualty figures from
his book on Dresden, from 135,000 or more down to about 35,000, though the
erroneous figure is still widely quoted.  I know we have discussed him before,
though it may have been on another net, and his reputation has not fared very
well.
                                   LTC Con Crane
                                   USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 10:09:28 EST
From:    Charles Reace <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Plan Orange

Based on snippets of information I've picked up over occaisional
job-related visits to the US Naval War College, it's my impression that
most wargames there during the period between the World Wars had Japan
as the opposition force.  Prior to WWI, the opponents had usually been
the Red force, representing Britain (not Russia), as the greatest
naval threat to the US.  I don't know whether the naval powers that
were really thought we would ever go to war with Japan, but Japan was
their main antagonist for planning purposes, being as it had the largest
and best navy of any reasonably likely enemy.

There is a display case at Simms Hall (the wargames center at the NWC)
which has a letter from Adm. Nimitz which thanks the NWC for preparing
him and his staff, such that the only surprise encountered during
the Pacific War was the Kamikaze tactic.  (I suppose he meant tactical
surprises, vice the strategic surprise of Pearl Harbor and the invasion
of the Phillipines.)

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <[email-masked]>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 10 Jan 1994 21:54:20 -0600
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: B-24 wing hits;  Thanks for responses

Jack Mc,

     Your comment about this reminded me of the shot of a B-24
hit in the wings in the "Victory at Sea" segment "Rings around
Rabaul."

     Con, Bob, and everybody:  Thanks for the informative/
fascinating responses.

     If I ever had to play 1:1 WWII wargames for keepers, I
certainly know which mount *I*'d rather be flying.

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 10 Jan 1994 22:32:29 -0600
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: U.S. "betrayal" of Gen. Vlasov and Waffen-SS

Gudmundur,

     First, I must tell you I have NO sympathy for the (Waffen-)
SS who were turned over to the Soviets at the close of the war.
The SS had massacred entire villages of Slavs in the East with
no qualm.  My understanding is that Waffen-SS were not as
separate from the concentration camp variety of SS as has been
occasionally claimed.

     Also, it is very easy to judge from hindsight, as I learned
from my thesis on the Katyn Massacre.  American GI's had just
"liberated" the concentration camps and felt no sympathy toward
Germans -- except, of course, the kids -- let alone toward Nazis.
The Malmedy Massacre of American GIs in the Ardennes was also a
fresh memory.

     Frankly, I'm surprised we didn't just turn all the SS over
to the Soviets categorically.  (It is a good thing we didn't.
The Soviet NKVD and Nazi SS had collaborated before "Barbarossa,"
and many former Gestapo and SS were quickly recruited by the
Communist regimes of Eastern Europe as it was.)

     As to Vlasov, you have more of a point.  However, once
again remember that we looked upon the Russians as fellow
allies who had suffered terribly at the hands of the Germans,
while contributing most of the war effort against them.
Also, Vlasov's (administrative) connection to the SS didn't
help his situation.

     I view Vlasov as a tragically naive Russian who WAS
trying to help his people AGAINST HITLER AND STALIN (as the
book's title goes).

     You might be interested to know that I also have little
sympathy for the Soviet commissars who were exterminated
categorically on Hitler's orders.  They were Stalinists who
furthered his (genocidal) methods, which were amply demon-
strated at Katyn, in the Baltic states, and at innumerable
other killing pits.  For the most part, they were not naive,
although surviving NKVD today suffer an interesting variant
of amnesia.

     Also, what were Icelanders doing at the time to try to
stop the evil raging in Europe?  You see, everyone could have
done more and better.

     You raised a good, fair question, G.  I/we hope you have
many more.  By the way, will your children's last name be
Gemund..son?  or have Icelanders ceased the Old Norse method
of names?

Lou Coatney, Western Illinois University Library,
  Macomb, Illinois  USA

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 00:04:31 -0600
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Japanese war motives -- Response to Carl W.

Yeah, wasn't it just terrible of us to deny those poor
  Japanese militarists the raw materials necessary for them
  to continue murdering and raping Chinese men, women, and
  children with blithe, Bushido abandon?

(Wasn't there a shipload of scrap steel that sailed on to
  Japan even after Pearl?  Or was that just apocryphal?)

Maybe we should have let them have Australia, too.  :-)
  (Maybe we SHOULD have let them have New Zealand.  :-I  )

And maybe we're going to lose that war, after all.

Lou Coatney (speaking for hisself)

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 11:33:00 EST
From:    "W. C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: B-24 ditching trivia

>Also, the B-17 had broad, low-mounted wings, while the B-24's wings
>were mounted high on the fuselage.  When a B-17 ditched, the wings
>could take the brunt of the impact, while a B-24 landed on its belly.

>Dennis E. Sparks
>[email-masked]
>Lexington, Kentucky.

I've always been curious about the 'ditching' mystique that surrounds
various aircraft.  I look at the seaplanes and amphibs and with FEW
exceptions, see aircraft with high or mid wings.  The Boeing Clippers,
the Albatross, etc.  I can understand that hull strengthening would
be necessary for structural integrity, but it would seem that a high
wing would be a plus in a ditching situation.  A low wing would more
easily catch on a wave crest and tear things up, one might think.

Then again, AFTER ditching, a low wing may provide added buoyancy with
the fuselage out of the water, while a fuselage like the B-24 would
be submerged.

Ditching is one of those items in flight training that is 95% folklore
and 5% researched information, according to the old time flight
instructors.  Obviously, tests would be destructive, and with a great
number of variables, hard data might be difficult to extract.

There are two parts...surviving the impact and then floating long enough
to get out.  From some combat footage, the Navy fighters lasted about
5 seconds on the surface, making it seem that buoyancy was the major
consideration.

If you want to start a heated discussion while hangar flying, bring
up ditching techniques....

Bill

[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 11:03:47 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [email-masked]

>One possible source of Yamamoto's plan to attack Pearl Harbor may
>have been the writings of Hector Bywater, naval correspondent of
>the *London Times*.  In 1921 he published the book *Sea Power in
>the Pacific*, and in 1925 expanded this work into the novel *The
>Great Pacific War*  In these books, Bywater envisions a Japanese
>surprise attack on the U. S. fleet at Pearl Harbor.  Simultaneously,
>they would attack Guam and the Philippines, landing at Lingayen Gulf.
>The Naval General Staff in Tokyo had *Sea Power* translated and
>distributed among its officers and *War* was adopted into the
>curriculum at the Naval War College.
>
>Yamamoto was naval attache in Washington in 1925 when *War* was
>published.  It is hard to imagine that he was not aware of the
>book.  It was featured on page one of teh New York Times Book
>Review.
>
>--
>Steve Alvin
>[email-masked]
>

Steve,
     The latest Hamilton catalogue advertises a book called VISIONS OF INFAMY
that covers Bywater and his connections to the Japanese.  The ad speculates
that Yamamato ordered Bywater's death.  It doesn't sound very scholarly, but
then it is only $3.98.

                                                  LTC Con Crane
                                                  USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 12:16:51 EST
From:    Robert E George <[email-masked]>
Subject: TECH/TAC: DeGaulle as a 'blitzkrieg' proponent?

DeGaulle was an advocate of mechanized/armored warfare in the 1930's.

How close were his proposals to blitzkrieg as actually practiced by the
Germans? How workable were they -- were they realistic, or idealized?

Robert George
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 11:23:24 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: Charging Windmills

In your message of 10 Jan 1994 at 1027 CST, you write:

> >       Kate ter Horst???

> Bill,
> I've only been "spectating" on this debate and have deleted previous
> entries so apologies if you've said all this before, but what is
> your interest in this subject? Are you a veteran?
>
> steve

Hi Steve,

No, I'm not a veteran, just a historian.  It just saddens me to hear
of the passing of historical personalities (or anybody else for
that matter) in such an avoidable way.

Regards, Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 12:35:04 -0500
From:    Akira Takiguchi <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: David Irving

     I have to agree that Irving's books must be read with more salts
than the others (especially recent ones), but if you are a sincere
researcher, you should read *everything* with a grain of salt, anyway.

>To echo what Steve said, Irving also had to retract the casualty figures from
>his book on Dresden, from 135,000 or more down to about 35,000, though the
>erroneous figure is still widely quoted.

     I haven't been able to get the official figure (say Dresden city's)
so far.  Can't anybody talk *NOT* from memory?  Anybody take the trouble
to ask Dresden City Hall?
--
      Akira Takiguchi  VP, ATSON, Inc.  (a subsidiary of the Asahi Shimbun)
             CANAL TOWER  9-3 Nihonbashi-Koamicho Chuo-ku Tokyo 103  Japan
   +81 3 3666 2881(voice) 2882(fax)  EMAIL TO <[email-masked]>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 12:35:09 -0500
From:    Akira Takiguchi <[email-masked]>
Subject: TRV: The Three Concentric Circles

For Panzer Buffs' Eyes Only:

     Recently I purchased _Field Uniforms of German Army Panzer Forces
in World War 2_ by M.H.Pruett/R.J.Edwards (J.J.Fedorowicz Publishing 1993).
Heartily recommended.

     On page 174 of this book, there is a picture of a Panzer II with
three concentric circles at the rear corner of the turret (Plate 8.4).
The author identifies it as that of 2./Pz.Pi.Btl. 37, but it might be
incorrect.  Here's my observation.

     My first encounter with the three concentric circles was in Scheibert
[1].  There are several photographs of Flammpanzer II's and Panzer II's in
2nd and 3rd company.  Scheibert left the marking unidentified.
     The earliest work I know that attributed three concentric circles to
Pz.Abt.100 was Zaloga/Grandsen [2] in 1983.  Schmitz/Thies [3] followed
(1987), but I doubt that the authors just quoted previous work.
     According to Niehorster [4], there were three flamethrower tank
battalions as of June 1941;  Pz.Abt.100 under Pz.Gr.2, Pz.Abt.101 under
Pz.Gr.3, and Pz.Abt.102 under 17 Armee.  Though I couldn't find assignment
information in Tessin [5], I came up with another source - biography of
Herbert Zimmermann [6].  There is a description of 1.Pz.Div. fighting in
close cooperation with Pz.Abt.101 in October 1941 in Kalinin area.  Since
1.Pz.Div was under Pz.Gr.3 at this time, it is safe to believe that the
author is correct.
     Thanks to Dr. Kurt Sander's photograph, now I tend to believe that
three concentric circles belonged to Pz.Abt.101.  I would appreciate your
opinions.

[1] Scheibert  _Panzer II_ (Band 19 in _Das Waffen-Arsenal_)  Podzun Verlag
[2] Zaloga/Grandsen  _The Eastern Front_  Arms and Armour Press
[3] Schmitz/Thies  _Die Truppenkennzeichen 1939-1945_ Band 1  Biblio Verlag
[4] Niehorster  _German World War II Organizational Series_ Volume 3/II
[5] Tessin  _Truppen und Verbaende der deutschen Wehrmacht und der
    Waffen-SS_ Band 6  Biblio Verlag
[6] Kollatz  _Panzerfuehrer Herbert Zimmermann_ (No.257 in the series
    _Der Landser Ritterkreuztraeger_)  Pabel Verlag
--
      Akira Takiguchi  VP, ATSON, Inc.  (a subsidiary of the Asahi Shimbun)
             CANAL TOWER  9-3 Nihonbashi-Koamicho Chuo-ku Tokyo 103  Japan
   +81 3 3666 2881(voice) 2882(fax)  EMAIL TO <[email-masked]>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 12:35:12 -0500
From:    Akira Takiguchi <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Latvian Legion

     Since nobody mentioned:  Hugh Page Taylor and Roger James Bender's
_Uniforms, Organization and History of the Waffen-SS_ Volume 5 (Bender
Publishing) covers Latvian and Estonian divisions to detail, referring
original documents and many litarature.  Though an old book (1982), it
is a recommended reading.
--
      Akira Takiguchi  VP, ATSON, Inc.  (a subsidiary of the Asahi Shimbun)
             CANAL TOWER  9-3 Nihonbashi-Koamicho Chuo-ku Tokyo 103  Japan
   +81 3 3666 2881(voice) 2882(fax)  EMAIL TO <[email-masked]>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 12:35:15 -0500
From:    Akira Takiguchi <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Gen. Vlasov

     I have read only two books that mentions Vlasov was Carell and Toland.
Somebody already mentioned Carell.  Toland's _The Last 100 Days_ mentions
Vlasov and ROA in the last two chapters of the book.  How Vlasov was involved,
how ROA entered Prague with welcome and how they had to left, and what
happened later.  Rather short account, but you can get the general picture.
--
      Akira Takiguchi  VP, ATSON, Inc.  (a subsidiary of the Asahi Shimbun)
             CANAL TOWER  9-3 Nihonbashi-Koamicho Chuo-ku Tokyo 103  Japan
   +81 3 3666 2881(voice) 2882(fax)  EMAIL TO <[email-masked]>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 12:13:06 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: David Irving

In Steve's message of 10 Jan 1994 at 1111 CST, he writes:

> I'm interested to see David Irving quoted. He is presumably the
> same chap who denies the Holocaust but has admitted recently
> that it *may* have happened? I don't think his views on the
> Holocaust are held in much esteem by most professional historians
> as far as I can ascertain.
> What about his views on other subjects?
>
> steve baldwin
> [email-masked]

Hi Steve,

Yeah, I know, but it was the only books I could find that mentioned
Vlasov.  I got the two volumes of _Hitler's War_ at a used book sale
for $.50 each.

As much as I disagree with Irving's politics I must admit that he
does provide excellent bibliographies and good notes.  I have his
biography of Hermann Goering and the two vol. set _Hitler's War_.
I got the latter mostly for two reasons, 1) I wanted to verify an
error that I heard about his quoting a conversation or message from
Himmler to someone about a particular train load of Russian prisoners
that was not to be liquidated because it contained the son of Josef
Stalin.  2) He goes into some detail about the actions of
Gerneraloberst Erhard Raus on the eastern front and his subsequent
dismissal by Hitler.  Even here Irving makes the error of naming Raus
"Erich" rather then "Erhard" but I have found no other reference that
gives that much data on Raus's story.  I blundered onto a grouping of
Raus material including his uniform and several documents a few years
ago and have been looking for more info ever since (I recently came
across a biography of Raus but its out of print.  I located it
through LOCIS - a super source).

As for Irving, I think a lot of historians feel his work is sloppy
and pointed to his political ends.  He was successfully sued for
liable by the family of the convoy commander of PQ-17, his first book
which laid the blame for the convoy's destruction at the commander's
feet due to incompetence.  Many of his works have been picked apart
at one time or another.

His official stance on the Holocaust (last I heard it) was that
Hitler didn't know what was going on.  Presumably he would have
stopped it had he known.  Irving is called a Hitler apologist for
this reason but he does address neo-nazi gatherings in various parts
of he world and is very popular with them.  He does not say the
Holocaust didn't happen, rather that it was not as bad as it is said
to be and that gassings did not take place *anywhere*.  No serious
historian takes him seriously on this but among the ignorant he is
gaining support for these views by using half truths and
psudo-science.  For a more complete analysis of Irving contact Ken
McVay ([email-masked]).  Ken has a FAQ dealing with all
aspects of the Holocaust and the current neo-nazi phenomena.  Tell
Ken that Bill says "hey". :-)  To see the debate live, sub to
alt.revisionism.  There are some sharp folks debating the neos there.

Cheers,  Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 14:02:00 EST
From:    Charles Reace <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Yamamoto's plan

>One possible source of Yamamoto's plan to attack Pearl Harbor may
>have been the writings of Hector Bywater, naval correspondent of
>the *London Times*.  In 1921 he published the book *Sea Power in
>the Pacific*, and in 1925 expanded this work into the novel *The
>Great Pacific War*. . .

While I won't pretend to have any idea whether Yamamoto or others read
this book, I wonder if it matters.  If I were considering going to war
with a country and felt that the naval battle would be critical, and if
that opponent tended to bottle up a significant portion of its fleet in
one harbor, and if I had the means to do it (aircraft carriers), I think
I would have come up with the idea on my own.

I think possibly much more important was the British success at Taranto
(read _To_War_In_a_Stringbag_ for a great read!).  This gave them
positive empirical evidence of the potential of such a raid, at a
critical time (less than a year before Pearl).

Just my 1.3 cents worth (after taxes).

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <[email-masked]>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 13:59:01 EST5EDT
From:    Jon Kay <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: SS Units.

=|>  Frankly, I'm surprised we didn't just turn all the SS over to
=|>  the Soviets categorically.  (It is a good thing we didn't. The
=|>  Soviet NKVD and Nazi SS had collaborated before "Barbarossa,"
=|>  and many former Gestapo and SS were quickly recruited by the
=|>  Communist regimes of Eastern Europe as it was.)

The Russians actually let some SS personnel live? It was my
understanding that the death's head insignia meant just that for any
SS soldier unfortunate enough to find himself in the hand's of the
Russians.

------------------------------------------------
above message from : [email-masked]
------------------------------------------------

"How wrong Emily Dickinson was!  Hope is not "the thing with
feathers."  The thing with feathers has turned out to be my nephew.
I must take him to a specialist in Zurich."

                            - Woody Allen (who else?)

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 11:41:30 EST
From:    rod holmes <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TECH/TAC: DeGaulle as a 'blitzkrieg' proponent?

< DeGaulle was an advocate of mechanized/armored warfare in the 1930's.
<
< How close were his proposals to blitzkrieg as actually practiced by the
< Germans? How workable were they -- were they realistic, or idealized?

If I remember right DeGaulle was more of a proponent of using tanks in
large formations such as divisions not the deep penetration operations
praticed by the Germans. This was a marked departure from the
French pratice of using their tanks in small formations, like battalions
and companies to support infantry formations.

Rod Holmes                      | The boredom eats me like cancer, down
[email-masked]        | here on the farm. - U.K. Subs & GNR

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 15:36:19 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: David Irving

>     I have to agree that Irving's books must be read with more salts
>than the others (especially recent ones), but if you are a sincere
>researcher, you should read *everything* with a grain of salt, anyway.
>
>>To echo what Steve said, Irving also had to retract the casualty figures from
>>his book on Dresden, from 135,000 or more down to about 35,000, though the
>>erroneous figure is still widely quoted.
>
>     I haven't been able to get the official figure (say Dresden city's)
>so far.  Can't anybody talk *NOT* from memory?  Anybody take the trouble
>to ask Dresden City Hall?
>--
>      Akira Takiguchi  VP, ATSON, Inc.  (a subsidiary of the Asahi Shimbun)
>             CANAL TOWER  9-3 Nihonbashi-Koamicho Chuo-ku Tokyo 103  Japan
>   +81 3 3666 2881(voice) 2882(fax)  EMAIL TO <[email-masked]>
>

Akira,
 I got the information from a letter from Max Rosenberg in the April 1973 issue
of AIR FORCE MAGAZINE.  It quoted the figures of the Dresden police chief
(35,000) and discussed Irving's acknowledgement that those figures were more
accurate than his.
                                        LTC Con Crane
                                        USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 14:55:23 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GERMAN VETERANS

John,

I wrote you yesterday, but I think it may not have gotten to you. I
will repost it tomorrow, when I have more time.

Thank you for your interest, and I will be in touch tomorrow.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 15:36:27 -0600
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Plan Orange

Right, Jack, it was actually a blessing the old dreadnoughts were
  bottomed at Pearl:

- It saved a massacre at sea -- Look what happened to the far
    faster and more maneuverable PRINCE OF WALES and REPULSE
    only a few days later in the South China Sea.

- It enraged/galvanized America at the thought of their "state
    ships" being attacked so treacherously when they were
    helpless.

- The battleline was the prestige target which drew attention
    away from the far more strategically valuable dry docks,
    (huge) fuel tank farm, (aviation gasoline laden) NEOSHO,
    (cruisers, destroyers, submarines, etc.).

- It forced America into a realistic realization of the naval
    odds against us.

- It gave us moral supremacy -- which DOES count for something.

- John Lundstrom, everybody:  Anything I've missed?

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 15:48:56 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRV: The Three Concentric Circles

Akira:

I appreciate seeing your references very much.  It makes your postings
more valuable than the "I think I remember" variety, although I confess
I sometimes get ideas which I later pursue even from these postings.

  =========================================================================
  | DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
  |                                  | Computers in Business & Education. |
  | Recently returned from my second | Education:  Curriculum development.|
  |   extended stay in Prague.       |    International Education, TEFL.  |
  |                                  | Central Europe:  Post revolution   |
  | Working on second book about     |    economic, social, political     |
  |   Prague and new Czech Republic. |    problems and opportunities.     |
  | E-Mail:                          | Free lance writing and editing.    |
  |   USA:  [email-masked]    | Stamp collecting.                  |
  =========================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 16:43:00 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Air: selected German targets

In your message of 10 Jan 1994 at 1912 CST, you write:
> Regarding the story of the 450th bomber squadron:
>
>         The Germans were quite right in sigle them out for that
> incident. You dont signal surrender and then attack you captors and
> expect no retaliations from them. If this were done by many then the act
> of surrender would mean nothing and surrendering parties would simply be
> shot down.

I agree.  So did many of the members of the 450th which made that
pilot and crew *very* unpopular and got a lot of the 450th group
killed.

Regards, Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 12:35:23 EST
From:    "William B. Thacker" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: U.S. "betrayal" of Gen. Vlasov and Waffen-SS

>      First, I must tell you I have NO sympathy for the (Waffen-)
> SS who were turned over to the Soviets at the close of the war.
> The SS had massacred entire villages of Slavs in the East with
> no qualm.  My understanding is that Waffen-SS were not as
> separate from the concentration camp variety of SS as has been
> occasionally claimed.
>
>      Frankly, I'm surprised we didn't just turn all the SS over
> to the Soviets categorically.

I guess it's because we have this annoying thing called "justice," and
under our system we require that an individual be found guilty of something
before we punish them.  Where war crimes could be attributed to
individuals, we tried the people and punished them.

It makes no more sense to blame all SS for war crimes than it does to blame
all German soldiers, or all Germans, period.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
(614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              [email-masked]
                      Humpty Dumpty was pushed!

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 21:12:21 -0500
From:    Warren Thompson <[email-masked]>
Subject: B-25s

There was a posting earlier today about B-25s and a planned fly-in later
in the year (in California, I think). Unfortunately, I deleted this
message ... could someone re-post (or forward) it for me? I'll be grateful.

-- Warren Thompson
LEBANON VALLEY COLLEGE
Annville PA 17003

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 21:55:47 -0500
From:    Bob Smart <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [email-masked]

> One possible source of Yamamoto's plan to attack Pearl Harbor may
> have been the writings of Hector Bywater, naval correspondent of
> the *London Times*.  In 1921 he published the book *Sea Power in
> the Pacific*, and in 1925 expanded this work into the novel *The
> Great Pacific War*  In these books, Bywater envisions a Japanese
> surprise attack on the U. S. fleet at Pearl Harbor.  Simultaneously,
> they would attack Guam and the Philippines, landing at Lingayen Gulf.
> The Naval General Staff in Tokyo had *Sea Power* translated and
> distributed among its officers and *War* was adopted into the
> curriculum at the Naval War College.

In _The Great Pacific War_ The Japanese start out with an attack on the panama
canal not Pearl Harbor. They have a merchant ship transiting the Canal blow up
in the Gaillard Cut, closing the canal for months.

>
> Yamamoto was naval attache in Washington in 1925 when *War* was
> published.  It is hard to imagine that he was not aware of the
> book.  It was featured on page one of teh New York Times Book
> Review.

In the new Introduction to the 1991 edition of GPW it is mentioned that
Yammamoto reported on the book to his supieriors and that he met
Bywater at the 1934 London Conference "and the two whiled away an evening
discussing the prospects for peace and war in the Pacific"

The 1991 edition is by St. Martins Press. It's only failing is that it does not
have the Order of Battle appendix that I remember from the original.

Bob Smart ([email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 21:22:41 CST
From:    Steve Alvin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: B-24 ditching trivia

Interestingly enough, Edward Jablonski reproduces much of the
pilot's manual for the B-17 in his book *Flying Fortress*.  It
includes the section on how to ditch the Fortress.

--
Steve Alvin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 21:26:09 CST
From:    Steve Alvin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [email-masked]

Both of Bywaters books on the Pacific War have been re-printed
fairly recently, one in 1990 and the other in the 70's ( I can't
remeber which one was re-printed when).  Bywater died in 1940,
but I have a hard time believing the Japanese had anything to
do with it!

--
Steve Alvin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 11 Jan 1994 22:49:02 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: ADMIN: Listowner working with one foot in a bucket.

Mechanical and other problems are limiting my time on the computer. If I
owe anyone a reply I will try to get to it as soon as possible, but please
be patient while waiting. Purdue has "improved" the local systems to the
point of near-total breakdown. Since the VA has been doing the same to me,
my time at the keyboard is limited. Stay calm, don't panic, I'll be back
in full operability in 7-10 days, but the interim will be minimalistic. I will
give priority to "Get me off this damn list!" messages. Meanwhile, standby
to meet my entire "Hitler and Germany in the 20th Century" class, whom I
hope to get online by Feb.

Enjoy,
Larry J

[email-masked]; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 10 Jan 1994 to 11 Jan 1994
*************************************************