Subject: WWII-L Digest - 15 Jan 1994 to 16 Jan 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 1994 00:00:39 -0500

There are 8 messages totalling 417 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Fate of Dutch Waffen-SS volunteers
  2. Military ranks
  3. Patton's grave.
  4. Waffen-SS
  5. American Volunteers in Finnish-Russian War
  6. ADMIN: Intro to WWII-L (no change since last posting)
  7. Cigarettes
  8. WWII Books

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Date:    Sun, 16 Jan 1994 09:30:29 -0500
From:    Akira Takiguchi <[email-masked]>
Subject: Fate of Dutch Waffen-SS volunteers

     Thanks to Peter and Fred I am now enlightened about Dutch law that
says anyone who served foreign army will lose citizenship.  Considering
the location of country I can understand the necessity for that law.  I
even suspect other Europian countries might have similar laws.  Anyone?

     I feel _Siegrunen_'s editorial was written after "Irving's way"
(as Bill Huber would say) - it had given me the impression that only SS
volunteers were suffering.

     Still, many questions haunts me.  There were thousands of volunteers.
Did they all knowingly joined the Waffen-SS?  Was the law effective after
the capitulation (i.e. Nazi era)?  Wasn't conscription involved?  Anyone
recovered citizenship?
--
      Akira Takiguchi  VP, ATSON, Inc.  (a subsidiary of the Asahi Shimbun)
             CANAL TOWER  9-3 Nihonbashi-Koamicho Chuo-ku Tokyo 103  Japan
   +81 3 3666 2881(voice) 2882(fax)  EMAIL TO <[email-masked]>

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Date:    Sun, 16 Jan 1994 11:55:57 -0600
From:    "Richard H. Miller" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Military ranks

Robert F. Kieran writes:

        During World War I, General Pershing was a four star general, but
        he was dealing with British and French marshals on a daily basis.
Some
        in Congress proposed promoting Pershing to Field Marshal, so that he
        would be on an equal footing with his Allies. What they actually did,
        though, was to promote Pershing to "General Of The Armies" [note
                plural and authorized him to wear 6 stars! Pershing never did
add his                 extra two stars.

Almost correct; Pershing was given the rank of "General of the Armies" and
the
authority to design his own insignia. He never chose to do so and always wore
the four stars. Because the five star rank was explicitly made junior to his
many people have assumed it was a six star rank but there was actually no
rank insignia ever designed for this.

(This rank was another reason why General Marshal was reluctant to assume the
new 5 star rank; he considered Pershing to be his mentor and did not want to
ever rank him; I believe the enabling legislation made Persjings rank the
senior)

--
Richard H. Miller                 Email: [email-masked]
Asst. Dir. for Technical Support  Voice: (713)798-3532
Baylor College of Medicine        US Mail: One Baylor Plaza, 302H
                                           Houston, Texas 77030

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Date:    Sun, 16 Jan 1994 15:31:04 -0500
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Patton's grave.

Bill, I had the fortune to visit Patton's grave a couple of years ago in
my own, self guided, tour of European battlefields.  It is located in
Luxembourg, in a cemetary for American servicemen who died in the battle
of the Bulge.  I'll try to look up the exact location for you (it's been
a few years, but don't worry, it's a small country) -it's somewhere near
Luxembourg city.  BTW, I seem to recall that he's buried there  on  his
own request- something about being buried with the men who served under
him. I'll get back to you,
David Rising ([email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 16 Jan 1994 15:48:32 -0500
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Waffen-SS

On Wed, 12 Jan 1994, Jon Kay wrote:

> =|>>      Frankly, I'm surprised we didn't just turn all the SS over
> =|>> to the Soviets categorically.
> =|>
> =|>I guess it's because we have this annoying thing called "justice," and
> =|>under our system we require that an individual be found guilty of something
> =|>before we punish them.  Where war crimes could be attributed to
> =|>individuals, we tried the people and punished them.
> =|>
>
> As I understand it (correct me if I am wrong) the SS, unlike other
> German divisions, was an all-volunteer squad, composed of men who
> joined knowing full well that they would be responsible for the most
> morally questionable (I hope that euphemism please everyone)
> assignments of the war. If this is true (and I am waiting for someone
> to correct me if they know this to not the case) then the two
> elements of guilt are present: Evil intention and Evil action. I
> don't think that men were forced into the SS. If conscripted, could
> not soldiers simply enter into the ranks of the rank and file
> infantry?
> ------------------------------------------------
> above message from : [email-masked]
> ------------------------------------------------
>
> "How wrong Emily Dickinson was!  Hope is not "the thing with
> feathers."  The thing with feathers has turned out to be my nephew.
> I must take him to a specialist in Zurich."
>
>                             - Woody Allen (who else?)
>
There are elements of truth to this assumption, but, from what I've read,
you're not entirely correct.  First of all, many believed the SS to be,
and indeed for a time it was only an elite fighting force (who were, of
course of the same ideological beliefs).  That being the case, many then
would have joined out of a sense of pride/nationalism/duty etc., & not
necessarily "evil intent".  Later, however, the SS became less of an
elite fighting group, and did attract a large number of "evil" people.
Another thing, just out of interest, is that during Aktion Reinhard, the
period of time when the Germans 1st began rounding up Jews and Poles and
concentrating them (in ghettos) many of the       einsatzgruppen were
made up of auxillery police from German cities rather than from the SS.
These men were responsible for the murders of hundreds of thousands of
people from 1941-42.  I guess the point is that not all who were in the
SS were evil and not all who were not in the SS were good.
David Rising ([email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 16 Jan 1994 21:50:14 GMT
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <[email-masked]>
Subject: American Volunteers in Finnish-Russian War

        I have read somewhere that there were American volunteers i the
Finnish armed forces when the Russian attacked them early in the war. If
so what happened to them? I also have seen somewhere that some of them
had no choice but to enlist into Wehrmacht. Is this true?

Gudmundur Helgason                                  <[email-masked]>

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 16 Jan 1994 18:37:43 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: ADMIN: Intro to WWII-L (no change since last posting)

Revision: 1 November 93
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Welcome to WWII-L, a list dedicated to the discussion of the
greatest cataclysm of the Twentieth century (and, hopefully,
the last.)

I'm Larry W. Jewell and I'll be listowner until further
notice.  I can be reached at the addresses listed at the end
of this notice.

WWII-L will be self-moderated.  This means that each of you
will always try to remember that there is a human being on the
other end of the net, and the "Golden Rule" is rule number
one!

Our subject is HUGE and not everyone will be interested in
everything that moves over the mails.  To ease YOUR burden of
sorting the items you wish to read I offer the following
"flags".  They will go FIRST on the Subject: line.
(This section will be enforced when traffic get heavy, otherwise
members may use their discretion on the matter.)

EDU (For discussion of aspects of teaching about the war.)
SCI (for discussion of science and technology, may overlap
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WEAP ( for talk of weapons, useage of weapons, and "My favorite
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POL (Political discussions, such as the effects of the Yalta
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Some items will overlap, of course, but the main thrust of the item
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1. The Holocaust
2. Did Roosevelt Know About The Coming Attack on Pearl Harbor?
3. (Watch this space...)

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Date:         Wed, 16 Sep 1992 18:06:11 CDT
From: DONALD NEWCOMB <[email-masked]>
Subject:      Getting back articles and the database

From:Larry Jewell <[email-masked]>
Larry,
  One of the "niftiest" features of the listserver is the database
search. This allows the user to search for any subject and print
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_
//Job
Database Search DD=Rules
//Rules DD *
sel * in wwii-l where subject contains ("weap:")
index
/*
_
If you change the word "index" to "print" it will return you a copy
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Donald R. Newcomb - Univ. of Southern Mississippi - Gulf Park
   <[email-masked]>

Enough talking.  I can be reached at the following addresses;

Larry W. Jewell                      [email-masked]
2501 Soldier's Home Rd. #58B         JEWELLL@PURCCVM
W. Lafayette, IN, 47906-3571
(317)496-3234

#Larry W. Jewell (ex-USN)  WWII-L Listowner   [email-masked]     #
#"Sunday's horoscope is noteworthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly#
#unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life." #
#--"Your Horoscope," L.A. Evening Herald Express, Saturday, Dec. 6, 1941.   #

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 16 Jan 1994 17:32:05 CST
From:    Bart Marable <[email-masked]>
Subject: Cigarettes

I am doing research on the Anglo-American relationship during and immediately
after WWII. In reading through some British serials I have come across
advertisements for cigarettes with the slogan "For admirers of the American
Style Cigarette." Does anybody know what the difference was between British
and American cigarettes during this time? And if there was a difference, how
did the British feel about this?

Bart Marable
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 16 Jan 1994 22:35:03 EST
From:    MR SKIP WILDER <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WWII Books

Gudmundur,
        Q. M. Dabney & Company, Booksellers, buys and sells out of print
books on Military History.  Four times a year they issue their "Catalogue
of Old, Rare, and Out-of-Print Books on Military History" with the majority
of the items relating to WWII.  Their titles are expensive but they seem to
have things I've not seen elsewhere.  I've been buying from them for about
three years and their service has been impeccable.  Contact them at

                        Q. M. Dabney & Company, Booksellers
                        PO Box 42026
                        Washington  DC    20015

                        Voice Telephone 301-882-1470
                        FAX Telephone 301-881-0843

---
Skip Wilder
[email-masked]
McLean, Virginia, U. S. A.

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End of WWII-L Digest - 15 Jan 1994 to 16 Jan 1994
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