Subject: WWII-L Digest - 16 Jan 1994 to 17 Jan 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 1994 00:00:17 -0500

There are 29 messages totalling 801 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Waffen-SS (5)
  2. re : Waffen SS (3)
  3. military ranks (2)
  4. USAAF 17 JAN 44
  5. The Passing of Historical Personalities (was Charging Windmills) (4)
  6. U-Boat warfare survivors (2)
  7. Waffen SS (4)
  8. Laconia Incident (2)
  9. WEAP: DR.BOYD--GERMAN SUBMARINES
 10. Patton's grave. (2)
 11. Leaflet Bombers
 12. Wilhelmshaven 1943
 13. Cigarettes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 16 Jan 1994 21:27:22 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Waffen-SS

It may seem comforting to think that the SS was at first some kind of elite but otherwise
noble fighting unit, and only became evil later     later on...
In fact, the SS acted with despicable brutality from Day one of World War
Two. First in Poland, where the SS shot defeated soldiers on numerous
occasions. In the Blitzkrieg of 1940, troops of the SS shot over 200 British
soldiers of the Norfolk Regiment after the Tommies had been disarmed and
were surrendered for several hours before being herded into a field and
machine-gunned. Bayonets were used on the survivors. Evidently, the "early"
SS were every bit as unpleasant as their successors.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 00:39:26 CST
From:    Steve Alvin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Waffen-SS

If my memory is serving me correctly, the SS were also responsibler
for the execution of a number of Dutch troops who had surrendered
during the 1940 campaign.  Apparently this pocket of Dutch troops
did not receive notification of the Dutch surrender and continued
to resist.  When they were subdued, the SS executed them.

--
Steve Alvin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 09:54:00 +0100
From:    Tobias van Gent <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: re : Waffen SS

The Dutch who fought in the civil war in Spain also lost their citizenship.
Some former Dutch SSers could however retain their nationality in 1945-6 if
they would go to fight in the Dutch Indies during the independence war of
Indonesia and later in 1950 in Korea. This fact was latter on much critized.
But after the war the Netherlands was in great need of experienced soldiers.

Tobias van Gent KIM

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 11:50:15 GMT
From:    Johannes van Vuren <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: military ranks

Thanks everyone who responded to this topic so far. Im now more enlighhtened.
The discussion so far has thrown up a few interesting conclusions and ideas:

        Is it true that field marshals and five-star generals are only created
        during war and not in peacetime?

        Is there a case for creating special ranks for women members of the
        forces? Or special names for their ranks? Of course, these names
        should not be derivatives of the male equivalent but "stand on their
        own feet" as it were.

Johannes van Vuren,
Canterbury, England. Exit

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 07:20:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: USAAF 17 JAN 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
MONDAY, 17 JANUARY 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
A-20, Douglas Havoc
A-36, North American Apache
B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
B-24, Consolidated Liberator
B-25, North American Mitchell
B-26, Martin Marauder
Beaufighter, Bristol
C-47, Douglas Skytrain
F-4, Lockheed Lightning
F-5, Lockheed Lightning
P-38, Lockheed Lightning
P-39, Bell Airacobra
P-40, Curtiss
P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
P-51, North American Mustang
Spitfire, Vickers Supermarine
Ventura, Lockheed

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, A-36's and P-51's support ground
forces in the Shaduzup-Ngamaw Ga area and near Taro; others bomb supply
dumps, warehouses, and rolling stock at Sahmaw; and P-40's hit Myitkyina
Airfield.
  Transfer: HQ 7th Bombardment Group (Heavy) from Pandaveswar to Kurmitola,
India.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Italy, B-17's attack the
marshalling yard at Prato and the marshalling yard and bridge at Pontassieve;
B-24's bomb the marshalling yard at Arezzo; and P-38's and P-47's provide
escort.
  Transfers in Italy: HQ 98th Bombardment Group (Heavy) and 343d Bombardment
Squadron (Heavy) from Manduria to Lecce with B-24's; 340th, 341st and 414th
Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), 97th Bombardment Group (Heavy), from Cerignola
to Amendola with B-17's.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25's attack
marshalling yards at Terni, Chiaravalle, and Montemarciano; B-26's strike the
Orte railway bridge and Viterbo marshalling yard; P-40's hit the Sibenik,
Yugoslavia harbor, the bridge at San Giorgio del Sannio, gun positions at San
Giuseppe and Formia and docks at Anzio; A-36's bomb Anzio, the Avezzano town
area and road junction, and Tarquinia town and factory buildings.
  Transfers in Italy: 87th Fighter Squadron, 79th Fighter Group, from Madna
Airfield to Capodichino with P-40's; 92d Fighter Squadron, 81st Fighter
Group, from Castelvetrano, Sicily to Capodichino with P-39's.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): 9 B-25's from Abemama Island,
Gilbert Islands, bomb and strafe Mille Atoll, Marshall Islands, hitting the
runway, AA positions, radio tower, warehouse area, lagoon dredges and
possible oil dumps. 4 P-40's from Makin Island, Gilbert Islands, bomb and
strafe the Mille Atoll landing ground.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, AAF
and US Navy (USN) fighters support a USN dive-bomber strike on shipping at
Rabaul; they claim 18 Japanese airplanes; 10 Allied fighters are lost. During
the night of 17/18 Jan, a few B-24's, in 2 flights, bomb the Rabaul area,
while 2 Royal New Zealand Air Force (RNZAF) Ventura's bomb the Kalakapisi
coast watcher station at Choiseul Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 47 B-24's and
B-25's bomb the Hansa Bay area; B-25's bomb Nubia; P-39's strafe the Rai
Coast; and B-24's bomb Bandanaira, Celebes Islands.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 13:52:19 GMT
From:    Stephen Baldwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: The Passing of Historical Personalities (was Charging Windmills)

Bill Huber writes (re Kate Te Horst)
.
.       No, I'm not a veteran, just a historian.  It just saddens me to hear
.       of the passing of historical personalities (or anybody else for
.       that matter) in such an avoidable way.

I believe I cut out the piece in the paper. I must try and find it...
Re the passing of historical "personalities", I guess I feel that way
about the dwindling band of World War One veterans. All of them are
now very old indeed and they represent such a different world from the
one we live in now. I even cut out and save the obituaries of
the more distinguished veterans whose deaths appear in the national
daily papers!

I have been priviledged to meet some of the "grunts" (thanks to
James Owens for enlightening me on that one) including several
Somme veterans, one from the Gallipoli campaign ("Suvla Bay
was the worst place I ever visited"), and a chap who did Russian
convoys in WWII (joined the navy in 1918). One whom I knew
long before I got interested in World War history was a chap
who lost a leg at Paschendaele (1917) and was one of the early
members of the Limbless Ex-Servicemens Association. He met King
George after WWI. He died whilst I was living abroad so I never got
to speak to him. His son showed me photos of the royal meeting etc.

I have recently struck up a friendship with an 86 year old near
neighbour who tells me of her memories of the Great War. Obviously
only a child, she remembers staying on her uncle's farm when a
Zepplin flew overhead. Her uncle rushed outside with his shotgun
and took potshots at it complaining that "We don't want them
ruddy Germans round 'ere!"

Another "historical personality" that comes to mind is the last
remaining veteran of the Boer War, now living in Canada aged 113
or sthg like that. He was only a stable lad or something but is
apparently the last known person in the world who can wear the
Queen Victoria Boer War Medal (or whatever it's called). They
jetted him over here a year ago for our Remembrance Day
activities - he got on the TV etc...

End of rambling. Sorry 'bout this but I do get
a buzz tracking down the veterans and hearing from people
who were there...Aaahh the stuff of history....

steve baldwin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 13:59:50 GMT
From:    Stephen Baldwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: The Passing of Historical Personalities (was Charging Windmills)

Ladies and Gentlemen!
apologies that my previous email was not mainly about WWII - I've just realised
that I was replying on WWII-L and not MILHIST-L (as I had thought I
was replying to). A problem when one is subscribed to lots of lists....

steve baldwin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 09:10:04 EST
From:    Charles Reace <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: U-Boat warfare survivors

> However, while a practical consideration, moral behavior and the Laws of
> Warfare define the pilot of a crippled aircraft getting into parachute as a
> non-combatant.  As your discussion rightfully points out, that status is
> certainly to change once rejoining his unit.  However, I believe in the
> strictest sense to have engaged pilots in parachutes is a war crime.

CPT Ingalls, I'm not sure from your post if you are stating simply what
you understand to be technically, in a legal sense, a war crime; or if
you feel it morally incorrect.  In either case, how then do you cate-
gorize the bombing of civilians, including women and children, that was
done by both sides in WWII.  Or for that matter, how do you categorize
a submarine sinking a troopship -- the infantry that drown could not
fight back.  Should Hap Arnold and Chester Nimitz have been tried for
war crimes?

I do not intend this to sound sarcastic if it does to you.  I am simply
trying to make a point that once two nations go to war, they've already
thrown morality out the door.  Once you start putting "moral rules" into
effect, you start to legitimize warfare, even make it a somehow glorious
thing to do.  While the emotional side of me likely would not allow me
to shoot at a pilot hanging from a 'chute, the logical side says that if
that pilot is over his territory, then I may be saving friendly lives
and helping my side's war effort by killing him.

Obviously, the best answer is to not have wars, so that no such questions
need be raised.  To this end, I think we should avoid glorifying war by
claiming it is something chivalrous with rules that somehow keep it moral.
While I constantly marvel at the glorious things men (and women) sometimes
do in time of war, we should all remember how essentially ugly war is.

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <[email-masked]>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 09:09:56 EST
From:    "William B. Thacker" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Waffen SS

Sidney Allinson writes:

> It may seem comforting to think that the SS was at first some kind of elite
> but otherwise noble fighting unit, and only became evil later later on...
> In fact, the SS acted with despicable brutality from Day one of World War
> Two.

Sidney cites cases from Poland and the invasion of France and the low
countries.

Indeed, it's a mistake to assume that elitism and atrocities were inversely
proportional, so that when the elite status dropped the atrocities
increased.  The equation's nothing near that simple, containing many more
variables.

The SS forces that saw service in these campaigns were the epitome of the
stereotype SS soldier.  The units were only regiments, nothing near the
full divisions they later became, were all-volunteer, and were hand-picked.
They were also more zealous, politically, than the SS troopers who were to
follow.  They contained a higher percentage of the original Blackshirts,
people who joined the SS for political, rather than military reasons.

Further, they lacked fighting experience.  The accounts I've read of
their performance in these early campaigns seems to indicate that they were
fierce, but crude and unskilled.  The combination led to high casualties
and atrocities.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Bill Thacker             AT&T Network Systems       attmail!att!cbemf!wbt
(614) 860-5294           Columbus, Ohio              [email-masked]
                      Humpty Dumpty was pushed!

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 10:00:48 -0500
From:    "M. Joseph Barone" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Laconia Incident

        On Spetember 12, 1942, U-156 sunk the liner Laconia near
Ascension Island.  Kapitan-Leutnant Hartenstein surfaced his submarine
to begin rescuing the ship's passengers, mostly Italian prisoners of
war and the families of servicemen, and sent a radio message alerting
the Allies to the situation.  Two other U-boats, the U-506 and U-507,
and an Italian submarine, changed course to assist, and Admiral Doenitz
requested help from Vichy ships in Dakar.

        On September 16, an American Liberator bomber found the U-156,
laden with survivors of the British liner Laconia and towing lifeboats
from that ship.  The plane attacked the U-156, ignoring the Red Cross
flag displayed, and the rescue efforts were broken off.

        On September 17, following this attack on the U-156, which
was still engaged in rescue operations, Admiral Doenitz issued his
"Laconia Order," forbidding U-boats to attempt to save the passengers
and crews of their targets.
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
As much as I like Big Joe, I don't want to spend the rest of the war
in a prison camp.  Besides which, I'm a first generation Italian.
They would shoot me as a traitor.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 10:43:04 EST
From:    Ingalls Steven CPT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: DR.BOYD--GERMAN SUBMARINES

An addition to the list recommended to that gentlemen seeking information on
U-boat commanders and operations is:

     ROHWER and HUMMELCHEN, Chronology of the War at Sea, Naval Institute Press

This provides a day by day account of all naval activity in all theaters.

CPT Stephen A. Ingalls
United States Military Academy
West Point

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 10:49:51 EST
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Patton's grave.

The discussions about Gen. Pattons grave has brought up several questions.

1) What is the legal status of military cemetaries overseas, are the plain
old cemetaries or are the considered soverign U.S. territory (such as an
embassy)?

2) How is the land procurred?

3) Who is responsible for it's upkeep and who guarantees its integrity?

4) How is it that one is interned in a military cemetaries overseas?

5) Is there a process in place to remove the remains and bring them back
to the US if the servicemans family wishes?

6) Do you have to be a serviceman to be interned in a military cemetary?

Ron Babuka

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 11:00:43 EST
From:    Ingalls Steven CPT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: U-Boat warfare survivors

Mr. Reace,

Thanks for your posting.
>
>CPT Ingalls, I'm not sure from your post if you are stating simply what
>you understand to be technically, in a legal sense, a war crime; or if
>you feel it morally incorrect.  In either case, how then do you cate-
>gorize the bombing of civilians, including women and children, that was
>done by both sides in WWII?

Bombing non-military targets is a war-crime.  Of course, the definition of
military targets is often left to interpretation of the winner of that
conflict, even if that still doesn't make it right.

>Or for that matter, how do you categorize a submarine sinking a troopship --
>the infantry that drown could not fight back.  Should Hap Arnold and Chester
>Nimitz have been tried for war crimes?

Interesting application.  I'm not near my references on the philosophy of war.
However, my initial reaction is that all on board are combatants.

>I do not intend this to sound sarcastic if it does to you.  I am simply
>trying to make a point that once two nations go to war, they've already
>thrown morality out the door.

I'll disagree.  There are rules governing combatant actions in armed conflicts.
Fortunately, that's what differentiates a professional soldier from
mercenaries.  Your comments would lead me to believe we'd never agree on the
fact that I believe there is such an animal as legitimate warfare.  Asking any
veteran, the fact that it's legitimate in no way makes war glamorous.

>Obviously, the best answer is to not have wars, so that no such questions
>need be raised.  To this end, I think we should avoid glorifying war by
>claiming it is something chivalrous with rules that somehow keep it moral.

Ideally, I agree.  However, the practical side of humankind indicates there
will always be despots interested in testing these ideal laws.  The fact that
there are, in fact, rules, should make both sides of the spectrum on this
issue more comfortable.  Rules will never make it glorious or chivalrous.  They
do, however, help control the violence.

>While I constantly marvel at the glorious things men (and women) sometimes
>do in time of war, we should all remember how essentially ugly war is.

Agree.  But, I guess, we've wandered off the original issue.  The discussion of
the morality of U-boats and their actions during WWII was answered, I think, in
large part by Doenitz' near complete vindication at Nurnberg.

CPT Stephen A. Ingalls
United States Military Academy
West Point

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 08:27:43 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: military ranks

Throughout the Second World War, and for several years afterwards, women
in the British armed forces had different commissioned rank names than
did men.
For instance, the WAAF had officer ranks like: Section Leader...
The WRNS had a similar "different" rank hierarchy of names for female
officers.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 08:34:29 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: The Passing of Historical Personalities (was Charging Windmills)

While I was researching my book, THE BANTAMS: The Unknown Story of World War One (Howard Baker , London, 1981) i I met or corresponded with over
350 veterans of the Great War ) (1914-1918),  Marvellous characters. Then,
all of a sudden, they began to die off in batches. I
attended I don't know how many funerals, out of the respect I gained
for those splendid old gentlemen and their uncomplaining service
in quite the worst war that modern times has ever seen.
BTW: My own late father was a private soldier in The Green Howards,
and served two years in the trenches on the Western Front.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 11:16:07 -0500
From:    "M. Joseph Barone" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Leaflet Bombers

 From: mc killop <[email-masked]>:
> STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force):
> Mission 184: During the evening, 4 B-17's drop 840,000 leaflets on Amiens,
> Lille, Cambrai and St. Omer France without loss.

It seems that these leaflet bombers have been having extraordinary
luck in avoiding losses in Jack's postings.  Why was this?  Did the
Germans ignore them if there were only a few, were they undetected,
or was there some other reason?  Thanks.
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
"Don't fool around with the women -- their husbands carry guns!  And
don't forget the penalty for looting is death!" cried Maitlin as he
ran after the transport carrying the yacht he had "found".

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 08:45:50 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Patton's grave.

Speaking of war dead of Britain and the British Commonwealth, until recently, it
it was a policy to bury dead near where they had fallen, and to establish
cemetaries in whatever foreign field thay lay.
One of the largest, belay that *the* largest
enterprise of this nature is that of the
Commonwealth War Graves Commission. The CWGC
maintains war graves and cemetaries in over
100 countries. The graves in the Commission's
care mark the resting places of
1, 694, 857 war dead.
For a complete study of CWGC, read COURAGE
REMEMBERED, by Kingsley Ward & Edwin Gibson.
(I had the pleasure of writing and researchiung
sections of that book,)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 09:08:08 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: re : Waffen SS

Right after the end of WW2 in Europe, the French began actively
recruiting Waffen SS PWs for service in Indo-China. There was a
direct offer that even the most culpable of SS would be quietly
whisked away in return for them "volunteering" for service in
what became a very nasty little war betwen the French and the
Viet Mihn.
A very large contingent of ex-SS subsequently fought in Foreign
Legion units there.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 11:21:50 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <[email-masked]>
Subject: Wilhelmshaven 1943

I am told that the first American raid into Germany took place on January 27,
1943.  Can anybody tell me if this is true, and something about the raid.

Thank you.

  =========================================================================
  | DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
  |                                  | Computers in Business & Education. |
  | Recently returned from my second | Education:  Curriculum development.|
  |   extended stay in Prague.       |    International Education, TEFL.  |
  |                                  | Central Europe:  Post revolution   |
  | Working on second book about     |    economic, social, political     |
  |   Prague and new Czech Republic. |    problems and opportunities.     |
  | E-Mail:                          | Free lance writing and editing.    |
  |   USA:  [email-masked]    | Stamp collecting.                  |
  =========================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 12:26:28 -0500
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Cigarettes

On Sun, 16 Jan 1994, Bart Marable wrote:

> I am doing research on the Anglo-American relationship during and
immediately > after WWII. In reading through some British serials I have
come across > advertisements for cigarettes with the slogan "For admirers
of the American > Style Cigarette." Does anybody know what the difference
was between British > and American cigarettes during this time? And if
there was a difference, how > did the British feel about this? > > Bart
Marable > [email-masked] >
Bart, I'm just going to hazzard a
guess based upon what I know as an ex-smoker.  Here in Canada (& in
England as well) cigarettes (presently-I don't know about during WWII) are
made with Virginia tobacco.  So are those made in the U.S..  What, then,
you ask, is the difference?  Well, American cigarettes taste harsher and
British ones taste sweeter.  The British ones, however, are frequently
stronger in Tar &Nic. levels (A Dunhill w/filter = a Camel w/o filter).
It must have to do with the way that they cure the tobacco.  BTW, sorry
if this message comes out garbled, my computer's been doing funny things
recently.
David Rising ([email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 10:59:29 -0800
From:    "Jackson, Christopher R. UC Davis" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Waffen-SS

Thanks to Mr. Kieran for his informed posting on the Waffen-SS.  By way
of another reference, I can recommend the book by Guy Sajer, a
francophone member of the Waffen-SS, "The Forgotten Soldier"--one of the
few memoirs of the second world war that grinds no axes.

Christopher R. Jackson, UC Davis

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 12:19:09 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Waffen-SS

'Couple other informative books...
SCOURGE OF THE SWASTIKA, by Lord Russel of Liverpool
ORDER OF THE DEATHS HEAD (author escapes me for the moment)
SA
DAS REICH (SS Division history), by Max Hastings

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 16:01:10 -0400
From:    Joe Bialek <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Waffen-SS

I beleive that Sajer was NOT SS but a memebr of the elite ARMY division
GROSS DEUTSHLAND.  I distinctly remember at the end of his book that he
removed the GD armband becuase it was rumored that the Americans were
shooting any German soldier from a named (rather than numbered) division.
Obviously the American assumed all named divisions were SS..not so.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 16:44:08 -0500
From:    Justin Gustainis SUNY-Plattsburgh <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Waffen SS

I agree with Bill Thacker about the lack of a relationship between elite status and atrocities.  And it doesn't begin and end with the Waffen-SS, either.
During Vietnam, and since, there have been some very persistent rumors
about atrocities (by which I mean murder of civilians and torture of
prisoners) by some elements of U.S. Special Forces.  I am by no means
attempting to slander the Green Berets.  Note that I said "some elements,"
and we're talking rumors here, anyway.  But, as I said, these are persistent
rumors.  Some of these come from Special Forces participation in the so-
called Phoenix Program in Vietnam (which also involved some Navy SEALs),
others come from El Salvador 20 years later.  Some of this may be leftist
propaganda.  All of it?  Hard to say.

My point is, though, that atrocities are not necessarily a function of
poorly trained or badly disciplined troops (as was apparently the case at
My Lai 4).  Some times people are playing what they consider to be "hard-
ball."  Is one man's hardball another man's atrocity.  You betcha-- and the
winners usually write the history books.

Justin Gustainis
Department of Communication
SUNY-Plattsburgh

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 18 Jan 1994 12:22:59 +1100
From:    Mick Fauchon <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: The Passing of Historical Personalities (was Charging Windmills)

        Speaking of those who have passed on, I presume we all heard that
"Bubi" Hartmann, the fighter ace, died on Oct. 22nd last year.

                                                                Mick.

--                                                                          --
Mick Fauchon                          | Internet: [email-masked]
Reference Section, Auchmuty Library   | Ph  (intl+61+49) 215861
University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA    | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833

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Date:    Tue, 18 Jan 1994 14:05:58 +1000
From:    John Foster <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Waffen SS

In the magazine "History Today" for I think  April 1992 there is an article
mainly dealing with the Eastern front in which the author sets out to show
that the SS and Waffen SS are blamed for a lot of the attrocities that were
carried out equally by the army,sometimes in deed and sometimes in complicity.
He argues that there has been a shift in feeling over the years starting with
the publication of works by army generals in the postwar years to distance
themselves from the Nazi regime.A regime which they mightn't have agreed with
in principle but one which they supported to the hilt when Hitlers projections
came to pass and the early victories started to mount up.At that stage they
were certainly in like flint and on the eastern front the author argues that
the generals down to the ordinary soldier new what sort of war they were going
to wage ie they were going to wage total war to take land and possessions for
the German people from a race of people that weren't even fit to be called
people and this war was to be waged against men women and children ,combatants
and non combatants alike.He argues the guidelines for treatment of special
people ie communists and prisoners in general and then the slavic people in
general was clearly defined so noone was ignorant of the role they were to play
or in the planned outcome thus making all involved "bedfellows".The author goes
onto claim that with successive "revisionist " histories being produced we have
come to the point in our time where President Regan can lay a wreath to German
war dead and even declare the SS as "victims" of the Nazi regime.
    It is interesting to note the strong feeling about this period and the army
system that permeates through the writings of Hans Kirst author of the "Gunner
Asch series" amongst others.In the "Night of the Generals" there are great
slabs of his views personal views and I quote from one from the draft of a
lecture that was never given.
 "If you train a man for war alone you are automatically training him for
murder;but if you claim in all sincerity that you are training him to preserve
peace you must train him to be a human being."
      I think this ties in with the point of the magazine article  that ALL the
German forces marched to the East to destroy and to kill.As simple as that and
that this clearly was a war crime by all involved.
     Comments please ladies and gentlemen,boys and girls!
                                                   John

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Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 21:01:23 -0600
From:    Lakeville Senior High <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: re : Waffen SS

It seems to me that I read that the French also re-armed Japanese PW's to
protect French outposts in Indo-China.

Any documentation on the role of SS PW's in Indo-China?

On Mon, 17 Jan 1994, Sidney Allinson wrote:

> Right after the end of WW2 in Europe, the French began actively
> recruiting Waffen SS PWs for service in Indo-China. There was a
> direct offer that even the most culpable of SS would be quietly
> whisked away in return for them "volunteering" for service in
> what became a very nasty little war betwen the French and the
> Viet Mihn.
> A very large contingent of ex-SS subsequently fought in Foreign
> Legion units there.

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Date:    Tue, 18 Jan 1994 03:30:39 GMT
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Waffen SS

>
> In the magazine "History Today" for I think  April 1992 there is an article
> mainly dealing with the Eastern front in which the author sets out to show
> that the SS and Waffen SS are blamed for a lot of the attrocities that were
> carried out equally by the army,sometimes in deed and sometimes in complicity.
> He argues that there has been a shift in feeling over the years starting with
> the publication of works by army generals in the postwar years to distance
> themselves from the Nazi regime.A regime which they mightn't have agreed with
> in principle but one which they supported to the hilt when Hitlers projections
> came to pass and the early victories started to mount up.At that stage they
> were certainly in like flint and on the eastern front the author argues that
> the generals down to the ordinary soldier new what sort of war they were going
> to wage ie they were going to wage total war to take land and possessions for
> the German people from a race of people that weren't even fit to be called
> people and this war was to be waged against men women and children ,combatants
> and non combatants alike.He argues the guidelines for treatment of special
> people ie communists and prisoners in general and then the slavic people in
> general was clearly defined so noone was ignorant of the role they were to play
> or in the planned outcome thus making all involved "bedfellows".The author goes
> onto claim that with successive "revisionist " histories being produced we have
> come to the point in our time where President Regan can lay a wreath to German
> war dead and even declare the SS as "victims" of the Nazi regime.
>     It is interesting to note the strong feeling about this period and the army
> system that permeates through the writings of Hans Kirst author of the "Gunner
> Asch series" amongst others.In the "Night of the Generals" there are great
> slabs of his views personal views and I quote from one from the draft of a
> lecture that was never given.
>  "If you train a man for war alone you are automatically training him for
> murder;but if you claim in all sincerity that you are training him to preserve
> peace you must train him to be a human being."
>       I think this ties in with the point of the magazine article  that ALL the
> German forces marched to the East to destroy and to kill.As simple as that and
> that this clearly was a war crime by all involved.
>      Comments please ladies and gentlemen,boys and girls!
>                                                    John
>
This is wrong, One cannot say that ALL (or even most) of German
soldiers that started Barbarossa went in to kill and Destroy! If so then
the numbers of killed on the Eastern Front would be multiple to what we
know them to be.  The vast majority of the Heer and the Waffen SS units
at least tried to "behave" themselves. The Russians  "outclassed" the German
armed forced in raw brutality (for instance the commisars who executed
captured Germans and the numbers who were sent to Siberia to die). I
have yet to see any data that says that the Germans started those
tortures that were all over the Eastern Front and all that I have seen
points towards the Russians. The Russians really hated the Germans as a race.
Also, what do you call the Hamburg raids then (over 50.000 dead)?

Gudmundur Helgason
<[email-masked]>

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Date:    Mon, 17 Jan 1994 22:00:43 CST
From:    Steve Alvin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Laconia Incident

When the Laconia was sunk, the U. S. 1st Composite Squadron on
Ascension Island recieved a garbled message from the U-156 and
was not informed that the Germans were involved it rescuing the
survivors.  It was asked to provide an air-escort for the
British lifeboats.  Meanwhile, a B-24 of the USAAF 343rd BS
was flying from Ascension to Africa and spotted the 156 and the
British boats.  The pilot, Lt. Harden, asked for instructions
from the commander of the
1st CS, Captain Richardson, and was ordered to attack.

--
Steve Alvin
[email-masked]

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End of WWII-L Digest - 16 Jan 1994 to 17 Jan 1994
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