Subject: WWII-L Digest - 3 Jan 1994 to 4 Jan 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 5 Jan 1994 00:00:23 -0500

There are 21 messages totalling 617 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. 10 Feb 1940,"They broke in like mad dogs" (3)
  2. your mail (3)
  3. Philippine Islands/Guerrilla Activty (2)
  4. Latvian Legion
  5. ADMIN: The Holocaust...
  6. Naval Historical Center address? (2)
  7. Philippine Islands/Guerrilla Activty -- books
  8. WWII-L "train conductor" appreciated!
  9. <No subject given>
 10. Gen: Upcoming NY Times Article
 11. TRIV: What are Gypsies? (was: your mail)
 12. The List... (2)
 13. WWII, CHURCHILL AND THE HOLOCAUST
 14. INF: Seeking Abraham Lincoln vets.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Jan 1994 16:20:49 +1000
From:    George PISZCZUK <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 10 Feb 1940,"They broke in like mad dogs"

In your message of  1 Jan 1994 at 2124 CST, you write:
> George,
>
> I really enjoyed your post.  CAn you add some background info
> about his experiences?
>
> --
> Steve Alvin
> [email-masked]

:Yea, what happened next???  You can't stop there!  Thanks for posting
:that account.  How did he survive the war and how did you end up in
:Australia?  Don't leave us hanging :-)

:Reagards Bill
:[email-masked]

Stefan is the son of Makary Piszczuk.  Makary was a a veteran of the Bolshevick
War, and he was given a large parcel of land, on what is now the
Polish-Belorussian border.

Following his stay in Siberia Stefan was drafted into the
Tadeusz Kosciuszko army of Wanda Wasilewska, with Berling the commander.
His service number was 778. He was posted missing, presumed killed 12/10/43
at Lenino.

He survived a serious wound was actually held by the Germans. Following his
release by advancing Russians he continued onto Berlin. There he worked for the
British until he received his discharge 16 Sep 49 and he emigrated to Australia.

At no time did he consider returning home, he knew what Stalin had in store for
him. My brother and I took him back in 1992, it was only then he really knew he
had made the right descision.

Other letters tell of his training, his time as a POW and the remainder of his
war. I will post these as they are translated if there is a continuing interest.

George

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Jan 1994 23:53:02 CST
From:    Steve Alvin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: your mail

At the risk of this being a "me too" post, I also use the figure
of 12-14 million deaths when I teach the Holocaust as part of my
20th c
Century class.  I break it down to approx 6 million jews, 4 million
poles, 1.5-2 million Russian prisioners, and the remainder being
the mentally ill, political prisioners, various ethnic minorities,
like the gypsis (sp), homosexuals, and various religious groups,
like the Jehova Witnesses.

--
Steve Alvin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Jan 1994 23:55:10 CST
From:    Steve Alvin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 10 Feb 1940,"They broke in like mad dogs"

Yes George, I think you will find a lot of continuing interest!

--
Steve Alvin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Jan 1994 09:05:46 EST
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: your mail

>> Ron, I didn't think that there were millions of gypsies period--I think,
>> in total, approximately 12-14 million people died in the camps or as part
>> of extermination squads set up in Poland, Russia, etc by the German
>> "machine." Approx. 6 million were Jews, 4 million were "ethnic" Poles, the

Thank you - I stand corrected.  I think my main error in my posting was
in think of an ethnic group that was targeted during the war and then
only point the finger at the German war machine.  Once again I am not
certain of the numbers but if we included ethnic Gypsies that were
liquidated by the Germans, the Romanians, the Bulgarians, and the Russians
in both planned extermination and spontaneous retaliations then the number
increases.  If someone had any numbers I would be intrested in seeing them.

I grew up in a very ethnic town with a very large percentage of the
population emigrating from eastern europe both before and after the war
A large percentage of these immigrants were stronly anti-Gypsie so the
natures of discussions like this are very emotional AND often incorrect.

Ron Babuka

P.S. a note to the administrator - I hope not to stir up any "problems"
with this subject and am hoping to just clear up any misconceptions
that I have.  ;)

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Jan 1994 09:01:37 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Philippine Islands/Guerrilla Activty

Date sent:      Sun, 19 Dec 1993 11:39:54 -0500
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <[email-masked]>
From:           Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject:        Re: Philippine Islands/Guerrilla Activty
Originally to:  [email-masked]
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <[email-masked]>

Chris,

I have done some checking on the sources I have, and I have some I
can recommend.

    1. Escape From Corregidor by Edgar D. Whitcomb. A personal
account and goes into his own experiences with fighting with
guerrillas before being captured.

    2. 70,000 to One: The Story of Lt. Gordon Manuel by Quentin
Reynolds.

    3. Behind Enemy Lines by James Dean Sanderson. Chapter 8 called
"Wild Man in the Philippines" deals with the the exploits of Walter
M. Cushing.

    Hope this helps somewhat.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Jan 1994 09:01:30 -0600
From:    Astra M Apsitis-1 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Latvian Legion

I was suprised and pleased to read that someone is taking an interest in
WWII in the Baltic--having written my MA thesis on Latvia during WWII, I
would like to comment the following:

On Thu, 30 Dec 1993, Jon Stevens wrote:

> I have recently come across an interesting book called the _Latvian Legio=
n_
> by Arthur Sigailis.  It is a very detailed account of all aspects of the
> Latvians who fought against the Russians in WWII including Latvian
> fighter pilots. =20

What you read is an interesting account of Latvians fighting the Russians,
but most certainly not a complete one.  WWII in Latvia is not an easy
study (as I found out the hard way)--LAtvians in peacetime and at war
never seem to agree on policies.  Differing opinions on how to ensure the
Russians would not return ranged from complete cooperation with the
Germans (i.e. the LAtvian Legion) to resistance against both the Germans
and the Russians.  In fact, at the end of the war (when Kurland was the
last stronghold), a small band of soldiers, many of whom were desrters of
the LEgion, fought against both oppressors.  Under the direction of
Kristaps Upelnieks and taking the name of Captain Kurelis, calling
themselves "Kureliesi" (Kurelians).  I am not aware of any sources for
further information (in Engllish), but for more information on the
LAtvian Legion, pick up any volume of history dealing with the German
Waffen SS and reference the Baltic legions by country.

 As with memoirs of (especially) war "heroes", the information should be
taken with a grain of salt.    However eagerly the first recruits may have
joined the ranks of the German forces,
later in the war the  methods of recruitment
more resembled conscription.  I know of no other memoirs such as the
Silgailis book that have been translated (as that one was in 1986), but I
wish you luck with secondary sources.  If you have any specific questions,
please post and I'll do my best to answer...

This is my first post and my terminal is going nuts--it has taken me 4
tries to get this far and my copy has dingbats all over it--I hope that
they do not transmit to your end...

Thanks for the chance to add to the group...

Astra Apsitis
Immigration History Research Center
University   of Minnesota

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Jan 1994 10:00:59 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: The Holocaust...

In Larry's message of  3 Jan 1994 at 1805 CST, he sez:

> When I started this list I was assured that the revisonists would "storm"
> the list and I'd have nothing useful come through their noise. I've had
> few such problems and haven't had to "nuke" any site. I think that if the
> neo's tried to give me a problem the membership would stand by me since
> you people have a good thing going here and know it.

If anybody is curious about the effect revisionists have on a list
check out alt.revisionism.  It was the most protracted flame war I
have ever witnessed.  I monitored that list for 3 months to get a
feel as to where the neos were coming from and if they had any
competent leadership (sort of a "know your enema" uh, er, "enemy"
[sorry ;-)] exercise).  There are some Jewish and non-Jewish scholars
there verbally dueling with the neos and quite frankly exposing the
neo-nazis for the jackasses they are.

The revisionists are there to generate heat not light.  The danger
lies not in that those who know the facts will change their minds but
that those who do not know may fall for their half-truths and
deceptions.  The revs go to a lot of trouble to make their position
appear scholarly and their agenda legitimate.  They publish the
"Journal of Historical Review" which is formatted like an academic
journal but once you read the articles it proves the old adage that
you can't judge a book by its cover.

Its a very elaborate ploy and they are counting on the belief that
the American People are stupid enough to believe crap if packaged to
look like scholarly literature.

When they infect a list they will say things that are designed to get
people to "blow their cool" and then (from the neos perspective) the
fun begins.  They will claim freedom of speech infringement and
conspiracies to bury the "truth" but its all just a ploy to gain
exposure.  They count on support from people who hear of their
oppressed underdog situation (which they work hard to cultivate) and
try to gain support by getting real scholars mad enough to either say
something which can be twisted or misinterpreted when taken out of
context which then becomes their rally standard.  Like I said, just
heat - no light.  Its a platform of hate supported by ignorance and
lies, nothing more.

WWII-L is truly an oasis of sanity where a subject we all enjoy
discussing is untouched by politics.  I support Larry 1,000% to keep
this list just the way it is.

Its truly a pleasure knowing and corresponding with you folks.

Cheers,  Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Jan 1994 12:43:09 -0230
From:    OLAF <[email-masked]>
Subject: Naval Historical Center address?

I hope someone out there can help me. I'm trying to contact the
Naval Historical Center in Washington, DC. However, the address
that I have always used in the past with success, has apparently
been changed -- or, at least, my last communication with them was
"Returned to Sender." The address I have been using is:

      Naval Historical Center
      Washington Navy Yard
      Washington, D.C.  20374-0571
      USA

Have they moved or changed their address? Does anyone know their
telephone and/or fax numbers?

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

Olaf Janzen                           Tel: (709) 637-6282
Department of History                 FAX: (709) 639-8125
Sir Wilfred Grenfell College          e-mail: [email-masked]
Corner Brook, Newfoundland
Canada
A2H 6P9

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Jan 1994 10:31:29 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 10 Feb 1940,"They broke in like mad dogs"

In your message of  3 Jan 1994 at 2324 CST, you write:

Hi George,

> Other letters tell of his training, his time as a POW and the remainder of his
> war. I will post these as they are translated if there is a continuing interest.
>
> George

Its a story that needs to be told.  Speaking for myself I would love
to hear more as the letters are translated.  I am certain others will
chime in with me on this!

Regards and thanks for sharing your letter(s) with us,

                            Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Jan 1994 10:48:08 -0600
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Philippine Islands/Guerrilla Activty -- books

THEY FOUGHT ALONE is another good one, Terry.  Not to abet
  MacArthur bashing, but I remember the author's humorous
  recollection that they only really started receiving weapons
  and other support after they had requested autographed
  portraits of the General.

We should remember that some of his staff were responsible
  for what appeared to be HIS egotism.  Many of them idolized
  him.

My understanding is that "Dugout Doug" was wholly unjustified,
  and M. deliberately and unnecessarily exposed himself on more
  than one occasion to disprove that stereotype.

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Jan 1994 10:52:40 -0600
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: WWII-L "train conductor" appreciated!

You do good work, Larry.  (After my experience on another net,
  your tolerance and gentle guidance are esteemed.)  Keep it up!

Lou Coatney, Western Illinois University

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Jan 1994 10:36:18 -0600
From:    CAPT Tim Taylor USN <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Naval Historical Center address?

The mailing address for the Naval Historical Center is
     Naval Historical Center
     901 M Street SE
     Washington, DC 20374-5060

The main telephone numbers are 202-433-2210 or 202-433-2553.  The main fax
number is 202-433-3593.  These numbers are in the director's office.

CAPT Tim Taylor, USN           Email:  [email-masked]
Navy Office of Information     Phone: 703-695-2078 DSN 225-2078
Washington, DC  20350-1200       Fax: 703-697-2767 DSN 227-2767
  - Please send NavNews email to [email-masked] -

On Tue, 4 Jan 1994, OLAF wrote:

> I hope someone out there can help me. I'm trying to contact the
> Naval Historical Center in Washington, DC. However, the address
> that I have always used in the past with success, has apparently
> been changed -- or, at least, my last communication with them was
> "Returned to Sender." The address I have been using is:
>
>       Naval Historical Center
>       Washington Navy Yard
>       Washington, D.C.  20374-0571
>       USA
>
> Have they moved or changed their address? Does anyone know their
> telephone and/or fax numbers?
>
> Thanks in advance for any assistance.
>
> Olaf Janzen                           Tel: (709) 637-6282
> Department of History                 FAX: (709) 639-8125
> Sir Wilfred Grenfell College          e-mail: [email-masked]
> Corner Brook, Newfoundland
> Canada
> A2H 6P9

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Jan 1994 10:57:22 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <[email-masked]>
Subject: <No subject given>

I have read recent postings about books dealing with Baltic people who fought
in WWII.

Does anybody know any books about Czechs that fought in WWII, particularly
Czechs who flew with the RAF and RCAF?

Thank you.

  =========================================================================
  | DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
  |                                  | Computers in Business & Education. |
  | Recently returned from my        | Education:  Curriculum development.|
  |   second extended stay           |    International Education, TEFL.  |
  |   in Prague.                     | Central Europe:  Post revolution   |
  | Working on second book about     |    economic, social, political     |
  |   Prague and new Czech Republic. |    changes and opportunities.      |
  | U.S.A. E-Mail:  BAUER@RCKHRST1   | Free lance writing and editing.    |
  |                                  | Stamp collecting.                  |
  =========================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Jan 1994 11:03:39 CST
From:    phyllis <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: your mail

Ron,
I apologize for what may have seemed like a sarcastic tone. It so happened
that in my U.S. History class yesterday, we discussed the Holocaust and
WWII. My students, who are often on the ball, had asked several serious
questions, particulary on the origins of anti-semitism, its particular
strain within central and eastern europe; Roosevelt and "his" decision not
to bomb the concerntration camps, etc.  The subject, even for this list, is
not an easy one. The gypsies, like Jews, stretched across countries, hence in
some ways their numbers are just as approximate as those of the Jews. We will
probably never know the exact death toll for any of the ethnic groups, either
from the camps, resistance, etc...

Phyllis
University of Illinois at chicago

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Jan 1994 18:42:42 +0100
From:    Richard Cummings <[email-masked]>
Subject: Gen: Upcoming NY Times Article

For those who like to look ahead...here is a preview of an
article I think will appear in the upcoming NY Times Sunday
Edition:

WORLD WAR II: THE SPLENDID RECORD OF PAPPY BOYINGTON'S BLACK
SHEEP< FOR RELEASE SUNDAY, JAN. 9, 1994<

(Editors: This is one of a series of reports recalling America's
role in the events of World War II 50 years ago this week. The
author, a World War II veteran, is a former editor-in-chief of
Cox Newspapers.)

< By CHARLES E. GLOVER= c.1994 Cox News Service= His men call him
"Pappy." After all, he is 32 years old, fighting in a war with
pilots barely in their twenties.

He commands the Black Sheep Squadron of the United States Marine
Corps - made up of rejects from other flying units. The Black
Sheep have a splendid record when it comes to shooting down
Japanese planes in the Southwest Pacific.

For copyright reasons, I can't post any more.  Guess you will
have to wait for the hard copy.  Regards from Munich.

--==oo00oo==--
[email-masked]
RFE/RL Inc
Munich,Germany

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Jan 1994 14:23:41 -0500
From:    "M. Joseph Barone" <[email-masked]>
Subject: TRIV: What are Gypsies? (was: your mail)

From: Steve Alvin <[email-masked]>:
> I break it down to approx 6 million jews, 4 million
> poles, 1.5-2 million Russian prisioners, and the remainder being
> the mentally ill, political prisioners, various ethnic minorities,
> like the gypsis (sp), homosexuals, and various religious groups,
> like the Jehova Witnesses.

        This has tickled the back of my mind for several years, and
Steve's statement has driven to the forefront.  Are gypsies an
ethnic minority?  Based purely on American entertainment (esp. TV),
I had the impression that it was more of a nomadic lifestyle for some
Slavic people.  What is their actual origin?  Thanks.
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
You're a good man, Mulligan.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Jan 1994 13:31:26 EST
From:    "Michael A. Oaks" <[email-masked]>
Subject: The List...

I too am pleased with the people and the subjects and the way both are dealt
with on this listserv. I withdrew from the V-WAR listserv due to the FLAME-
WARS  some people commonly had. Disagreements will happen but just because
you disagree doesn't make the others stupid, rude, loud, etc...
Enough, Enough, Enough...
    Changing subjects, has anyone read or heard of any books dealing with
the war/battles between Finland and Germany and or Finland and Russia??
All help appreciated!! In advance I thank you!!

                                               Michael Oaks

                             _______
Michael Oaks                | TRUST,|
Kennesaw State College      |   o  _|_____
P.O. BOX 444                |___|_|  BUT  |
Mareitta, Ga. 30061               |   o  _|_____
[email-masked]        |___|_|VERIFY.|
(404)499-3049  FAX # (404)423-6541      |   o   |
                                        |___|___|

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Jan 1994 18:04:58 EST
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Esq." <[email-masked]>
Subject: WWII, CHURCHILL AND THE HOLOCAUST

Hello all - All of the message traffic about WWII, the Holocaust and
Winston Churchill compels me to recommend the writings of Prof. Martin
Gilbert of Merton College, Oxford. Martin has written extensively on the
Holocaust and WWII and is Churchill's official biographer. His books are
rich in detail, without any axe to grind. Those of you who are also
interested in Churchill might want to join the International Churchill
Society. It republishes some of Churchill's books, has a quarterly
magazine that is quite good and runs some excellent seminars. Anyone who
is interested in the address for membership information can email me at
[email-masked] (Ithink the dues are $25/year or there abouts)

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Jan 1994 18:45:14 -0500
From:    Daniel Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Philippine Islands/Guerrilla Activty

Also look at E. Bartlett Kerr: SURRENDER AND SURVIVAL, NY: Morrow,
1985.

Mostly about PWs in the Pacific, but some of those escaped and
joined resistance groups.

Regards - Dan Ford

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Jan 1994 18:13:11 -0600
From:    Hans Werner <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: The List...

On Tue, 4 Jan 1994, Michael Oaks wrote
>...     Changing subjects, has anyone read or heard of any books dealing with
> the war/battles between Finland and Germany and or Finland and Russia??
> All help appreciated!! In advance I thank you!!
>
My name is Hans Werner and I am new to this list so I hope you will
forgive if this message looks odd. I have included a brief personal
introduction below.

My father served in the Russo-Finnish War and some years ago I did some
research on his stories. One book I came across is:
        Allan F. Chew, 'The White Death: The Soviet-Finnish Winter War,'
        (Michigan: Michigan State University Press, 1971).
There are other scattered references that don't spring to mind right now.
__________________________________________________________________________
Hans P. Werner                  Research Interests: Refugees and Displaced
History Masters Student         persons of WWII era. World War II military
University of Manitoba          history. Russian and Soviet History.
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
email address: [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Jan 1994 23:06:38 -0500
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: Seeking Abraham Lincoln vets.

Repost from soc.veterans, please reply to Mr. White. LWJ
>
>I'm posting this for a friend, so don't e-mail me.
>
>---------------------------------------
>
>  Researcher / Writer seeks
>  interviews / written communication with
>  veterans, or their families of "The Abraham Lincon
>  Brigade" that fought facism in Spain 1936 - 1939
>
>    Replies to
>      H. White
>      5048 Cobblestone Dr.
>      Columbus, Ohio  43220
>
>Will reply, in writing, to all.
>
>
>----------------------------------------
>
>
> Don't e-mail me.
>
>
>

--
[email-masked]; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 3 Jan 1994 to 4 Jan 1994
***********************************************