Subject: WWII-L Digest - 30 Jan 1994 to 31 Jan 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 00:00:43 -0500

There are 35 messages totalling 988 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. U.S. Lieut. killing bad guards (4)
  2. Re[2]: U.S. Lieut. killing bad guards
  3. USAAF 31 JAN 44
  4. CRYPTOLOGY IN WWII (3)
  5. WWII Travelling Exhibit
  6. War criminal ... or unprofessional? :-) (2)
  7. An officer who opposed atrocities
  8. Bombing bombers by air launched weapons (6)
  9. Civilian Reprisals
 10. POWs (4)
 11. TRV:  Pvt. Slovik (3)
 12. Lt. killing guards
 13. Re[2]: WW II massacres (2)
 14. Ref:Re: Midway Survivor Recovered
 15. WW II massacres (2)
 16. WWII-L Meeting
 17. First Raid On Germany

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Jan 1994 03:09:33 +22311624
From:    Monte Turner <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: U.S. Lieut. killing bad guards

George,

While it may be politically incorrect to observe that it is highly
doubtful that all concentration camp guards were evil little men intent on
genocide, it is in no way apologetic.  I have seen stories of guards
attempting to help concentration camp victims, and certainly there were
numerous guards who knew they were in no position to siply refuse to guard
the people they were told to guard.  The Holocaust was evil!  The
Holocaust cannot be denied though there are those unfortunate souls who
try.  But individuals who refuse to make blanket statements concerning a
group of people, particularly when there is evidence to the contrary, are
not apologists for such evil.  Historians who insist on politically
correct views such as the evil of all German concentration camp guards
are, I feel, straying from their pursuit of (unattainable though it may
be) objectivity.  By the same token I must agree with the view I am
certain you hold that those revisionists that are attempting to whitewash
the Holocaust or ignore it altogether are undertaking a very sad endeavor.
                                Monte Turner

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Jan 1994 03:23:02 +22311624
From:    Monte Turner <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: U.S. Lieut. killing bad guards

> Okay folks, let me jump in here before Larry does.  First, in the charter for
> this list we are supposed to refrain from Pearl Harbor and Holocaust
> discussions.  This rule has been relaxed a bit because we have been so
> well-behaved but if we stop behaving and start mailing off Holocaust flames I
> should not be suprised to see the rule enforced.

Point recievd and well taken.  Nuff sed

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Jan 1994 07:13:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: USAAF 31 JAN 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
MONDAY, 31 JANUARY 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-24, Douglas Dauntless
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): In the Aleutian Islands, 5 bombers fly a
negative sea-search mission.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 203: 74 of 74 B-24's hit
V-weapon site construction at St. Pol/Siracourt, France; 2 aircraft are
damaged beyond repair; no losses. The B-24's are escorted by 114 P-47's.
  Mission 204: 70 of 75 P-47 fighter-bombers, escorted by 47 P-38's and 87
P-47's bomb Gilze-Rijen Airfield, The Netherlands; they claim 13-1-1
Luftwaffe aircraft; 6 P-38's are lost, 1 P-38 is damaged beyond repair and
2 P-47's damaged; casualties are 1 WIA and 6 MIA.
  Transfers in England: HQ 357th Fighter Group and 362d Fighter Squadron from
Raydon to Leiston with P-51's (first mission is 11 Feb); HQ 358th Fighter
Group and 367th Fighter Squadron from Leiston to Raydon with P-47's and is
reassigned to the Ninth Air Force on 1 Feb.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): B-17's and B-24's bomb
airfields at Aviano and Udine, Italy; P-38's and P-47's provide escort.
B-17's with P-38 escort, hit Klagenfurt Airfield, Austria; they claim 16
aircraft shot down.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, A-20's bomb Artena and
road junction N of town; P-40's and A-36's, operating E of the Anzio battle
area, hit a road junction at Sezze, the town of Fondi, and junction and town
area at Priverno; P-47's bomb San Benedetto de Marsi; the XII Air Support
Command flies 250+ sorties over the Anzio beachhead; air opposition is
absent.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): In the Marshall Islands as US
Army and US Marine Corps (USMC) troops land on Kwajalein Atoll, under overall
command of Admiral Raymond A Spruance, the USAAF hits other atolls. 19 A-24's
bomb Mille Atoll airfield, over which P-39's and P-40's maintain all-day
cover and harassment; 9 P-40's carry out a strafing mission against Jaluit
Atoll; during the night of 31 Jan/1 Feb, 8 B-24's, attacking at intervals,
bomb Wotje Atoll.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): 40+ Allied fighters cover a
strike by US Navy (USN) dive bombers on Tobera, New Britain Island; 8 enemy
aircraft are claimed shot down; this strike is immediately followed by an
attack by 17 B-24's, with fighter support, on the same target.
  The detachment of the 17th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, 4th
Photographic Group (Reconnaissance), operating from Munda, New Georgia Island
with F-5's, returns to base on Guadalcanal Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, A-20's attack
Uligan Harbor and P-39's strafe Bogadjim, Bostrem Bay, and landing strip at
Alexishafen. B-24's hit a motor vessel off Ceram Island.
  89th Bombardment Squadron (Light), 3d Bombardment Group (Light), transfers
from Dobodura to Nadzab, New Guinea with A-20's.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Jan 1994 07:44:26 -0500
From:    Kevin Kamphaus <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: CRYPTOLOGY IN WWII

There is a book called I believe "Search for Enigma" that came out a few years
ago. I have it at home. I will look tonight and give you more information on
pictures etc tomorrow.

Kevin Kamphaus
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Jan 1994 08:00:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: WWII Travelling Exhibit

For those of us in the U.S., I learned this weekend that the National
Archives has a WWII exhibit that has been traveling around the country
since 7 Dec 91.  It has already been to San Antonio and Austin, Texas;
Abilene, Kansas; West Branch, Iowa; Independence, Missouri; and Grand
Rapids, Michigan.  The exhibit now moves on to:

ATLANTA, GEORGIA, 29 Jan-1 May 94 at the Jimmy Carter Library
NEW YORK, NEW YORK, 28 May-28 Aug 94 at the IBM Gallery of Science and Art
BOSTON, MASSACHUSETTS, 24 Sep 94-2 Jan 95 at the John F. Kennedy Library
SIMI VALLEY, CALIFORNIA, 28 Jan-9 Apr 95 at the Ronald W. Reagan Library
WASHINGTON, DC, 6 May-11 Nov 95 at the National Archives.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Jan 1994 08:55:44 EST
From:    Charles Reace <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: War criminal ... or unprofessional? :-)

Ryan, it saddens me that someone intelligent enough to be a grad student
at U.Conn. can have such an attitude, condoning one war crime as a supposedly
just solution to other perceived crimes.  If the lieutenant in question
had time to ask the ex-POW's to point out guards, then it was not a battle-
field situation.  And do you think the ex-POW's thought he was just taking
a census?  They probably thought he was going to note them down to be
charged for war crimes, etc.  Therefore, how could thi Lt. be sure some
of the guards were not just pointed out because they were rude to the
prisoners, or occaisionally sold their Red Cross packages on the black
market, etc.?

That is why we are a country of laws, and anyone, repeat anyone, who takes
those laws into his own hands is breaking them.  Yes, I feel this Lt. was
a war criminal, *if* he is so charged and proven to have committed the
actions which were described herein in the opinion of a jury of his peers.

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <[email-masked]>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Jan 1994 09:51:39 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: An officer who opposed atrocities

>Thank you, Richard, for the info. on the Wehrmacht officer.  While
>  American atrocities against the innocent -- in cases like My Lai --
>  were certainly not policy and represented a lapse in discipline and
>  control, some did occur, and it would be an important precedent if
>  we could find an American equivalent of that Wehrmacht officer.
>
>On VWAR-L, someone mentioned an American helicopter pilot who landed
>  his chopper in a killing field and evacuated a few of the
>  civilians.  This was at My Lai, and he supposedly had his gunners
>  train their weapons on American troops.  He WAS decorated, but not
>  officially for this.
>
>Lou Coatney, WIU

Lou,
     That was Chief Warrant Officer Hugh Thompson, a real hero on that terrible
day, who did a number of things to save civilians.  Though the wording of his
decoration was vague, it was partly for his performance at My Lai.

                                   Con Crane

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Jan 1994 09:58:09 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Bombing bombers by air launched weapons

>        Hi, all
>
>        Does anyone know anything about if the axis (or the allied) ever
>used somekind of air dropped bombs to kill bombers/fighters?
>        I think I saw somewhere that the Japanese used some kind of bomb
>they dropped high above the US bomber formations, this weapon I think
>damaged some bombers while not "killing" any of them.
>
>        A 10.000 pound time-fused bomb could have terrible impact on,
>say B-17 formation, if delievered properly.
>
>Any info would be great
>
>
>
>Gudmundur J. Helgason
>
>E-mail to:    [email-masked]

Gudmundur,
          I have seen some descriptions where the Germans dropped parachute
bombs down through bomber formations to try and break them up or down aircraft.
 The Japanese launched their manned "Baka" rocket bombs to ram B-29s, that
sounds like what you are describing.  E. Bartlett Kerr's FLAMES OVER TOKYO
covers that well.  They were dropped from medium bombers high over the B-29s to
give the Baka a better chance before it ran out of limited fuel.

                                             LTC Con Crane
                                             USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Jan 1994 11:13:33 -0500
From:    Joe Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: Civilian Reprisals

Let's not overlook the incidents on Malta where several Italian and
German flyers were summarily killed when the islanders got their hands
on them.  I believe the Italians were treated worse than the Germans
in this regard but I don't recall the reason for this "preferential"
treatment.
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
Hey!  Did you lose my aerial photographs?

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Jan 1994 10:47:00 -0600
From:    John Lundstrom <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Bombing bombers by air launched weapons

Despite what the B-29 crews thought, the Imperial Japanese Navy used their
rocket-powered Oka special attack planes (called BAKA-"fool" by the US)
solely for anti-shipping Kamikaze attacks. Carrying a Model 11 Oka, a Type 1
land attack plane (BETTY) could only climb to about 6,000 meters. The Okas
were only flown by the 721 Air Group and used off Okinawa between March and
June 1945.
        For more information, see Hatsuho Naito, Thunder Gods (NY, 1989),
Rikihei Inoguchi and Tadashi Nakajima, The Divine Wind (Annapolis, 1958),
Denis Warner Sacred Warriors (New York, 1982), while Ikuhiko Hata and Yasuho
Izawa's Japanese Naval Aces and Fighter Units in World War II (Annapolis,
1989) gives a sketch of the special fighter squadron formed to escort the
Oka-carrying BETTYS.
                John Lundstrom  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Jan 1994 11:10:49 -0500
From:    Joe Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: POWs

I recall a late-night movie that I watched perhaps twenty years ago
the name of which escapes me.  I remember that it was based on a true
story and was about two German deserters who were captured by a
Western Ally and dumped in a POW camp toward the end of the war.
Their fellow prisoners discovered that they were deserters and
demanded that they be court-martialed by the German POWs.  I won't
spoil the ending but I would appreciate it if someone could supply
me with the name of movie.  Thanks.
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
This, gentlemen, is my counterpart, General Vogel.  When I look at his
face, I see a loser.  I'm sitting in his headquarters; I'm drinking his
wine; hell, I even have one of his broads hanging around here somewhere.
But you, gentlemen, have not buried him!

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Jan 1994 13:15:06 EST
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: U.S. Lieut. killing bad guards

On Sun, 30 Jan 1994 11:16:21 -0500 GEORGE BAUER said:
>That argument that "some guards were merely doing their jobs" is one of the
>most absurd I have ever heard.  A concentration camp guard is merely doing
>his job???
>
>The world is full of apologists for evil.  We don't need another one.

Doubtless.  However, the original post made clear that the camp being
liberated was a P.O.W. camp, not a concentration camp.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Jan 1994 12:33:17 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: U.S. Lieut. killing bad guards

Please read the subject of this line of conversation for some time now.
Can you see the word BAD?   It does not say ALL GUARDS.

I repeat my anger over those apologists for evil.  One technique is to
equate two behaviors, and therefore claim that one "evil" cancels out the other.
Like shooting one German prisoner of war cancels out the holocaust.

I could go on for some time, but I won't.  But you get my point.

george bauer

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Jan 1994 12:34:09 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: U.S. Lieut. killing bad guards

sorry for my last message.  It should have gone only to one person who
send me mail, but unfortunately I replied to the wrong message.

My apologies..

george bauer

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Jan 1994 20:01:31 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Bombing bombers by air launched weapons

>         Does anyone know anything about if the axis (or the allied) ever
> used somekind of air dropped bombs to kill bombers/fighters?

Both the British and the Germans toyed with bombs on long cables, that
were either towed behind aircraft or (more sensible) dropped on
parachutes. The Germans claimed some succes in operational tests, but
apparently not enough to introduce it on large-scale use. The British
called this device 'long aerial mine' or 'mutton' and continued trials as
late as 1942.

Not entirely similar: The He 111H-6 could be fitted with a pneumatic
launcher for grenades in the tail, but that was only for self-defense.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Jan 1994 14:24:38 -0400
From:    Mike Bechthold <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: POWs

Joe,

I believe the movie you are taking about is an Italian-Yugoslav film
entitled "Gott mit Uns".  It debuted at the Cannes film festival in May
1970.  The movie was subsequently released in Canada in 1971 under the title
"The Firing Squad" and later on video as "The Fifth Day of Peace".  The
movie was indeed based on an actual incident which took place at a
Canadian PoW compound in Holland shortly after the end of the war.  The
complete story was recently told in a detailed article written by Chris
Madsen which appeared in the Spring 1993 issue of Canadian Miltary
History.  If anyone is interested I can provide more information on
obtaining back issues of the magazine.

Mike Bechthold
Managing Editor, Canadian Military History
Wilfrid Laurier University
Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Jan 1994 14:12:59 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: TRV:  Pvt. Slovik

Today marks the 49th anniversary, if marking this event can be
called an anniversary, of the execution of Pvt. Eddie Slovik,
the only American soldier executed for desertion since the Civil
War.

It is especially painful to us Pennsylvanians, as Slovik was a
member of the 28th Division, Pennsylvania National Guard.  Also,
his widow lives in suburban Philadelphia.  She has never stopped
trying to clear his name.

Jim

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-8760
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-8760

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Jan 1994 12:00:42 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: POWs

Five German PWs were hanged at pentonville Prison, London, after having
been tried and found guilty of the murder of a fellow-German PW. They
were executed on 6 October, 1944.
Another incident: Three weeks after the end of WW2, German Navy PWs held
captive in Holland tried a German Petty Officer by court-martial, on
charges of cowardice in the face of the enemy. He was sentenced to death.
The senior German offcier approached the local Canadian army commander,
requesting 12 rifles and ammo for a firing squad. The Canadian shrugged,
said, in effect, "If you Nazis want to kill each other, be our guest",
and authorized the weapons to be issued. The German sailor was thereupon
executed by a squad of his comrades.  Strange to relate, but entirely
true.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Jan 1994 15:18:22 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: CRYPTOLOGY IN WWII

Date sent:      Sat, 29 Jan 1994 21:57:57 -0500
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <[email-masked]>
From:           David Spencer <[email-masked]>
Subject:        Re: CRYPTOLOGY IN WWII
Originally to:  [email-masked]
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <[email-masked]>

David,

I have several excellent references on this topic at home. Will post
them tomorrow.

More later.

Terry

----------------------------------------------------------------------

 > CAN ANY ONE OUT THERE SEND ME INFORMATION ABOUT
BLETCHLEY PARK
AND > ULTRA. AM DOING AN ASSIGNMENT ABOUT DATA ENCRYPTION AND WOULD
> APPRECIATE INFO RE. WWII. hAVE READ "A MAN CALLED INTREPID" BUT AM
> LOOKING FOR AN ACTUAL PICTURE(S) OF THE COMPUTERS ETC. FOUND AT
> BLETCHLEY PARK.

Hinsley et al, _British Intelligence in the Second World War_ is the
official Brit history. It is definitive.

Please don't shout. We can all har you.

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Jan 1994 16:33:17 EST
From:    Charles Reace <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRV:  Pvt. Slovik

There's some interesting info on this event in the book _Operation_
Northwind_, concerning on how Ike instigated/authorized this one exe-
cution out of thousands of deserters, specifically because things were
going so badly during this "2nd Bulge" and so many US troops in this
sector were deserting and/or refusing to attack.

  __|  __|  __|  |  Charles Reace <[email-masked]>
_|   _|   _|     |
 |       | |     |  Computer Sciences Corp., Integrated Systems Div.
 ___|____/ ___|  |  304 W. Rte. 38, Moorestown, NJ 08057

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Jan 1994 16:28:32 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Bombing bombers by air launched weapons

>Despite what the B-29 crews thought, the Imperial Japanese Navy used their
>rocket-powered Oka special attack planes (called BAKA-"fool" by the US)
>solely for anti-shipping Kamikaze attacks. Carrying a Model 11 Oka, a Type 1
>land attack plane (BETTY) could only climb to about 6,000 meters. The Okas
>were only flown by the 721 Air Group and used off Okinawa between March and
>June 1945.
>        For more information, see Hatsuho Naito, Thunder Gods (NY, 1989),
>Rikihei Inoguchi and Tadashi Nakajima, The Divine Wind (Annapolis, 1958),
>Denis Warner Sacred Warriors (New York, 1982), while Ikuhiko Hata and Yasuho
>Izawa's Japanese Naval Aces and Fighter Units in World War II (Annapolis,
>1989) gives a sketch of the special fighter squadron formed to escort the
>Oka-carrying BETTYS.
>                John Lundstrom  [email-masked]
>

John,
     We have an historical mystery here, then. In April 1945 Japanese POWs on
Okinawa reported that there was a weapon similar to the Baka that was to be
used against B-29s.  AAF A-2 reports describe Baka attacks against B-29s in May
raids on Tokyo. Kerr's book has numerous eyewitness descriptions of
"foo-fighters" as the crews called them, trying to ram B-29s. Some were even
successful.  Bomb Group Mission Reports also describe the Bakas.  If those were
not Bakas, then there was some other kind of "shadowy aircraft with a flaming
tail" up there ramming B-29s.  They may have been large rockets, but the
airmen on the scene swore that they were manned, and AAF intelligence believed
them.

                                             LTC Con Crane
                                             USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Jan 1994 16:32:20 -0500
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: CRYPTOLOGY IN WWII

On Fri, 28 Jan 1994, Robin Hood wrote:

> CAN ANY ONE OUT THERE SEND ME INFORMATION ABOUT BLETCHLEY PARK AND
> ULTRA. AM DOING AN ASSIGNMENT ABOUT DATA ENCRYPTION AND WOULD
> APPRECIATE INFO RE. WWII. hAVE READ "A MAN CALLED INTREPID" BUT AM
> LOOKING FOR AN ACTUAL PICTURE(S) OF THE COMPUTERS ETC. FOUND AT
> BLETCHLEY PARK.
>
> THANKS...
>
Be careful.  The way I understand it, "A Man Called Intrepid" is largely
a work of fiction.  Try "Her Majesty's Secret Service" by Christopher
Andrew for some more reliable information.
David Rising ([email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Jan 1994 13:51:35 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRV:  Pvt. Slovik

There is a good examination of his case in the book, THE EXECUTION
OF PRIVATE SLOVIK, published in the early 1960's as I recall.
A somewhat selective movie version, very sympathetic to his cause,
was produced in the late 1970's, with Martin Sheen in the name
role.
Pvt. Slovik was almost illiterate, only vaguely aware of the issue
of the crime of desertion in the face of the enemy. What sealed his
fate, though, was his own confessiowhen arrested for the third
time for deserting his unit in France. He said, "I'll run away
again if I have to go out there."
His case was heard just after the Battle of the Bulge. So General
Eisenhower felt he had no choice but to uphold the death sentence.
"Pour encourager les autres", as the French used to say. To encourage
the rest...

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 1 Feb 1994 09:08:16 +1000
From:    John Foster <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: POWs

Joe
   Their was a real incident just as you describe I think in Holland where
two deserters were executed after the surrender of German forces and was
superintended by I think the Canadians.Another one of the "crazy" things that
happened in this period and is mentioned in the Whiting book that I mentioned
in a previous posting a few days ago.
   Regard
   John
"I saw Ronald Coleman in Beau Geste and he never sweated like this" said
bombardier Fuller. ......MAY 31 1943 Africa

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Jan 1994 15:46:36 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Bombing bombers by air launched weapons

Date sent:      Mon, 31 Jan 1994 01:12:38 +0100
Send reply to:  World War II Discussion List <[email-masked]>
From:           Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject:        Re: Bombing bombers by air launched weapons
Originally to:  World War II Discussion List <[email-masked]>
To:             Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <[email-masked]>

Emmanuel and others,

I remember reading something to the effect that the Germans had
experimented with air dropping bombs, with timed fuses, of course,
into Allied bomber formations. The work in which I read this was the
"Luftwaffe War Diaries" by Cajus Bekker, and in the work "Luftkrieg"
by Fred Majdalany, German version. The instance that sticks in my
mind is during one episode, the Germans actually got lucky and
succeeded in disintegrating one 4-plane formation with one bomb. It
was all a matter of chance and luck for this to have occurred, as you
may well imagine. I am recalling this all from memory and do not have
immediate access to the book.

Terry

----------------------------------------------------------------------

 On Sat, 29 Jan 1994, Gudmundur Helgason wrote:

>         Does anyone know anything about if the axis (or the allied) ever
> used somekind of air dropped bombs to kill bombers/fighters?

I've seen it mentioned that they did, both the Germans and the British,
rrbut never any details, I think.

>         A 10.000 pound time-fused bomb could have terrible impact on,
> say B-17 formation, if delievered properly.

Sounds too risky to me. Maybe with a proximity fuse, yes. But I don't
think that the use of such heavy bombs was ever considered -- how would
you get them above the enemy formation in time?

> Any info would be great

I'll look...

Emmanuel

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Jan 1994 16:35:27 -0600
From:    John Lundstrom <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Bombing bombers by air launched weapons

Terry,
        As I remember, Heinz Knoke in the old classic I Flew For The Fuehrer
describes how he dropped bombs on a formation of B-17s over NW Germany in
1943. As he related, the high command got very excited, but further
experimentation showed that the bomber formations could easily evade such
attacks.
                John Lundstrom  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 30 Jan 1994 23:31:55 CST
From:    Sly <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Lt. killing guards

>That argument that "some guards were merely doing their jobs" is one of the
>most absurd I have ever heard.  A concentration camp guard is merely doing
>his job???

>The world is full of apologists for evil.  We don't need another one.

        I read the post about not continuing a Holocaust thread, and
so I won't, especially as I personally have no interest in doing so.
However, since I have been personally insulted, I feel I *do* have a
right to respond.
        I was not apologizing for evil.  I wouldn't do something like
apologize for someone that take justice into their own hand and kills
whomever they feel like, because they felt they were in the right.
This describes the Nazis and the Lt. fairly well I would say.
        I am sorry I made the error and called it a concentration
camp.  I also wasn't aware that every concentration camp guard
personally gassed the inmates.  In this case I think the possibility
of having a non-evil guard of the Stalag would be possible.
        I really wish you would try to think before you label people
you don't even no with something like "an apologist for evil", based
upon about twenty writen sentences from them.  I feel that what you
wrote was abhorent, and the rapidity and lack of thought with which
you posted even more so.  I am new to this group.  I hope everyone
isn't this pathetic.

 "What is called the spirit of the void is where there is nothing.  It is
 not included in man's knowledge.  Of course the void is nothingness.  By
 knowing things that exist, you can know that which does not exist.  That
 is the void."   -Shinmen Musashi    *Sly ([email-masked])*

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Jan 1994 17:24:11 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: WW II massacres

> >shooting of prisoners by both sides.  One amazing film clip showed
> >two German soldiers, clearly surrendering under a white flag.  After
> >a few seconds they were gunned down right in front of the camera.
>
>
> I happened to be watching this show too and I remember just before they
> showed the clip, the narrator (I can't remember if the narrator was a
> G.I.) claiming that German snipers were very unsuccesful in surrendering
> to G.I.s.  There was an unspoken G.I.s policy of making sure that
> German snipers were delt with in a terminal manner.
>
> Ron Babuka

Was it not Eisenhauer that said he didn't want to hear of Germans who
waited in ambush on allied soldiers, spinging their trap and then
surrendering after having spent their ammunition while waving safe
conduct passes being taken prisoner?  I don't think it was Patton but
it may have been Bradly?

Cheers, Bill

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Jan 1994 18:25:27 EST
From:    "CARL WERNKE (TCWERNC@VCCSCENT)" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Ref:Re: Midway Survivor Recovered

 X-T0: [email-masked]
 To: Multiple recipients of list WWII-L ([email-masked])

 Steve Alvin's quote, 30 Jan 94, at 15:57:49, regarding a Douglas SBD-2
 Dauntless that received pre-deployment training on Lake Michigan, and which
 eventually lead to participation in the Battle of Midway. Pre-deployment
 training was conducted on board either the U.S.S.Wolverine (IX 64), or the
 U.S.S.Sable (IX 81), two converted passenger liners, serving with Carrier
 Qualification Training Unit, Great Lakes. They were based at the Naval Pier in
 Chicago, operating with aircraft based at nearby Glenview and other Bases
 bordering the Lakes. Info source: THE SHIPS AND AIRCRAFT OF THE U.S. FLEET,
 Fahey's Second War Edition, page 55.

 Retired Navy Capt.Mark Twain Whitter indicated, "He was unable to see the
 damage his 1,000 bomb had caused ... the ship was probably the armed
 merchant cruiser Kongo Maru." Samuel Eliot Morison's THE RISING SUN IN THE
 PACIFIC 1931-APRIL 1942, Vol III, page 389, indicated: "The carrier planes
 had sunk a large minesweeper, a 6000-ton transport and a 6500-ton
 converted light cruiser, Kongo Maru."

 This additional information might be of some general interest.

            "All hidden things the endless flowing years
             Bring forth, and bury that which all men knew.
             Falters the firm resolve and plighted word;
             And none may say "It cannot happen here."

                                   SOPHOCLES, Ajax, 646-649

  Carl Wernke
  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Jan 1994 17:52:03 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WW II massacres

> How likely is it that former members of either LAH or DR knew nothing of
> atrocities? Not bloody likely, given what the former did at Malmedy
> (specifically by Kampfgruppe Peiper)
> and the latter on its way from the
>
> south of France to Normandy.
>

Hi Warren,

The difference may be that reprisals against partisan activity were
not considered crimes by the Germans who perpetrated them.  I believe
you are referring to the Ourador Massacre by the Das Reich.

Peiper's shooting of US prisoners was a direct result of the
desperation of the Wacht am Rhein operation.  Timing was very
important and the Germans didn't have the ability or time to deal with
with prisoners.  Theirs was an all or nothing gambit that failed to
pay off.  Rumors of that massacre were big factors that caused the
Germans to fail by stiffening the resolve of the troops surrounded at
Bastogne.

Cheers, Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Jan 1994 18:40:12 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: WW II massacres

> Dale Lally mentioned "a group of German POW's from the Grossdeutschland division
>    were gunned down after a particularly nasty fight in Sicily."  Wasn't the
> Grossdeutschland Division on the Eastern Front during this time?
>
> JPN

As far as I know the only named division fighting in Sicily was the
Hermann Goering Division.   The Grossdeutschland fought in the East
and parts of it fought at the Battle of the Bulge (Fuhrer Begleit
Brigade and the Fuhrer Grenadier Brigade) late in the war.

It was Patton's 7th army that engaged the Hermann Goering Div.

Cheers, Bill Huber

[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Jan 1994 18:58:56 -0600
From:    WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: War criminal ... or unprofessional? :-)

> I would like to address the issue of killing the camp guards by the baby
> faced lt.  The guards had been pointed out by their former charges.  This,
> if nothing else, was thier "due process."  They had the opportunity to act
> in a humane manner, but they chose not to and were sentenced to death only
> by thier own actions.  The guards that did not act in sucvh a fashion were
> not so executed.  In such a time, that course of action, though seemingly
> brutal, spres the former POW's the plight of having to testify in court.
> There is a substantial difference between this lt. and lt. Calley.  These
> guards had operated a brutal camp that surely caused many men their death
> through their own callousnerss.  This is not the slaughtering of innocent vilaa
> gers, but the execution of war criminals.  I feel that the salient point is
> that the lt. did not kill all of the guards.
>
>
>                      Ryan O'Neil--  UConn grad student  (please forgive the typ
> os)

Hi Ryan,

I would not be hasty to declare all camp guards as criminals.  The
concentration camps were run by the SS but POW camps were administered
by the regular military.  RAF personnel would have been held by
Luftwaffe guards in the Luftstalag system.  Conditions in POW camps
were deplorable but the POWs were treated in accordance with the
Geneva convention for the most part and were fed as well as German
troops.  The diet of the German soldier was notoriously poor and even
Patton commented that KIA German troops would "turn green" after they
were killed and he related the phenomena to diet.

As bad as POW camps were they were far better than the concentration
camps that US and British troops ran across in Germany, Austria and
Czechoslovakia or the death camps the Soviets discovered.

The barbarity of conditions in SS camps was not hardly comparable to
conditions in POW camps.  I can see how a lynching of guards at Dachau
might happen but at a Luftstalag... I'm not so sure.

Regards, Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Jan 1994 19:18:44 CST
From:    "[email-masked]. --Scherrer,
         Tim A." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WWII-L Meeting

While having lunch with Sid Kitchel in Bloomington last fall, he talked
about another list he is on that got together at a final four site for
the NCAA and spent some time together.  I was thinking it might be a
good thing for us to do.  I know I have suggested this before, and there
has been very little interest in the idea.  Well, I am going to suggest
it again.  I am going to suggest the Jefferson Barracks WWII Living
History display in late April, early May (date hasn;t been set yet).
Jefferson Barracks is located in South County St. Louis.  The event
would have two WWII mock battles, displays of equipment and vehicles.
Last year it included a Stuart Tank that participated in the battle.
Saturday night has traditionally had a USO type show, with a real big
band every year except the last one.  Occasionally, they will also hold
a militaria show/sale on Saturday.

I know this area fairly well.  Hotels are reasonable ($40 range), and
there are plenty of places to eat nearby.  I will volunteer 11th Panzer,
WWIIHRS to host the get together.  I know there are about half a dozen
list members within 5 hours of St Louis.  What do you think.  I know it
would be difficult for people like Akira and our Icelandic friend to
make it, but for those of us nearby, it could be a lot of fun.  Anyone
interested????

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Jan 1994 17:55:56 -0800
From:    Julian E Gomez <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: First Raid On Germany

>>>The 1st Bombardment Wing dispatched 64 B-17's and the 2d Bombardment Wing
>>>dispatched 27 B-24's.  (A complete list of groups and their activities is
>>>listed below.)  Leading the mission was Colonel Frank A. Armstrong, Jr.
>>>Group Commander of the 306th Bombardment Group (Heavy).  Armstrong had also
>>>flown in the lead aircraft on the first B-17 mission to Rouen, France in
>>
>>I would venture a guess that Col. Armstrong was a role model for the
>>character Col. Savage of Twelve O'Clock High (the book & movie).
>>
>>
>>
>>"I was a precocious child and obviously destined to be a scientist."
>>
>>        Dr. Julian "a tribble took it" Gomez
>>        Apple Computer, Inc.  408/862-1289 or 996-1010
>>        [email-masked]  [email-masked]
>>
>
>Julian,
>     I have seen some debate on this issue, but Lay and Bartlett, the authors
>of the book, worked with Armstrong. The general consensus is that they based
>the book on their experiences with him.
>                                       LTC Con Crane
>                                       USMA

Thanks for the additional info. That point about Armstrong leading the
first mission into Germany sounded just like what was in the book. Now if
it also turns out that Col. Armstrong was dating a British intelligence
officer who was just a short flight away ...

"I was a precocious child and obviously destined to be a scientist."

        Dr. Julian "a tribble took it" Gomez
        Apple Computer, Inc.  408/862-1289 or 996-1010
        [email-masked]  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Jan 1994 23:18:59 EST
From:    "Cory D. Henriksen" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WW II massacres

Peiper didn't shoot anybody.  He far out ran the rest of the unit and
prisoners that he took remarked about the fair treatment they received.  This
is explained in "A Time for Trumpets."

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 30 Jan 1994 to 31 Jan 1994
*************************************************