========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jan 1994 22:59:53 CST Reply-To: salvin@heartland.bradley.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Steve Alvin Subject: Re: Ref:Re: Midway Survivor Recovered CArl, I guess you could say that the SBD-2 was on post-deployment training because it survived Midway but not a rookie pilot on Lake Michigan! :-) From Rohwer & Hummelchen's *Chronology of the War at Sea*: TF.11 (Rear Admiral Brown) consisting of the carrier Lexington, the cruisers Indianapolis, Minneapolis, Pensacola, and San Francisco and the destroyers (Desron 1) Phelps, Clark, Patterson, Dewey, MacDonough, Hull, Aylwin, Dale, Bagley, and Drayton, joins TF.17 (REar Admiral Fletcher), which comprises the carrier Yorktown and tjhe destroyers Russell and Walke (on March 6), to make a raid on Japanese landing points from S of the Papuan Peninsula. On 10 March the two carriers fly off 104 aircraft which attack the harbors over the Owen Stanley Mountains: the armed merchant cruiser cruiser Kongo Maru and the transport Yokohama Maru (6143 tons) are sunk and teh cruiser Yubari, the minelayer Tsugaru, the destroyers Asanagi and Yunagi, two transports and two auxiliary ships are damaged. The transport Tenryu Maru (6843 tons) has to be beached after being hit. End quote All typos are mine. -- Steve Alvin salvin@heartland.bradley.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 07:11:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: B Vasilion - USAAF Units Yesterday, Bill Basilion asked about two USAAF units in World War II. I cannot communicate directly with you Bill so let me give you what I have via this list. You said, "I need information on the 50th Troop Carrier Wing out of Wright Field at around 1938 1939." The 50th Transport Wing was not activated until Jan 41; the transport unit at Patterson Field, Ohio during this time was the 10th Transport Group; I have included a brief history of both units. Your second question was "then later the 47th Fighter Squadron out of Iwo Jima when they were I believe flying P-51 or some P-38's." I have included everything I can find about the 47th. 50th TRANSPORT/TROOP CARRIER WING --------------------------------- The 50th Transport Wing was constitued on 8 Jan 41 and activated 14 Jan 41 at Wright Field, Dayton, Ohio assigned to Office, Chief of the Air Corps. ( NOTE: Wright Field and Patterson Field were merged to become Wright-Patterson AFB on 13 Jan 48.) The subordinate units of the wing transported personnel, supplies and material in the US, Alaska and the Caribbean area between 1941 and 1944. Numerous groups were assigned for training or operations during this period. On 30 Apr 42, the 50th was reassigned to the Air Transport Command and the wing transferred to Camp Williams, Camp Douglas, Wisconsin. On 4 Jul 42, the Air Transport Command was redesignated the I Troop Carrier Command and the 50th was redesignated 50th Troop Carrier Wing. The wing continued as both a training and operational unit transferring to Sedalia AAFld, Knobnoster, Missouri on 9 Sep 42 (redesignated Knobnoster AAB on 31 Oct 42); Camp Mackall, Hoffman, North Carolina on 27 Apr 43; and Pope Field, Ft Bragg, North Carolina on 28 Jul 43. After clearing for overseas shipment, the 50th left Pope Field on 29 Sep 43 and arrived at Cottesmore, England on 17 Oct 43 assigned to the IX Troop Carrier Command, Ninth Air Force. The 50th trained for the Normandy invasion with the following units assigned: 439th Troop Carrier Group, 21 Feb 44-11 Jul 45 440th Troop Carrier Group, 11 Mar 44-Sep 45 441st Troop Carrier Group, 17 Mar 44-Sep 45 442d Troop Carrier Group, 29 Mar 44-Sep 45 On 26 Apr 44, the 50th transferred to Exeter, England where it remained until 1 Oct 44 when it transferred to Le Mans, France. The 50th transferred one more time in France, to Chartres on 3 Nov 44. After VJ-Day, the 50th transferred without personnel and equipment from Chartres to Pope Field, Ft. Bragg, North Carolina on 29 Sep 45. The wing was remanned and re-equipped until it was inactivated on 31 Jul 46. 10th TRANSPORT/TROOP CARRIER GROUP ---------------------------------- The 10th Transport Group was constituted as the 1st Transport Group on the inactive list on 1 Oct 33. On 20 May 37, it was consolidated with the 10th Observation Group, redesignated 10th Transport Group and activated at Patterson Field, Fairfield, Ohio. Assigned to the group were the following squadrons: 1st Transport/Troop Carrier Squadron, 20 May 37-2 Feb 43 Patterson Field, Fairfield, Ohio 20 May 37-26 May 42 General Billy Mitchell Field, Milwaukee, Wisconsin, 26 May-4 Oct 42 Pope Field, Fort Bragg, North Carolina, 4 Oct 42-9 Jan 43 2d Transport/Troop Carrier Squadron, 20 May 37-17 Feb 43 Olmsted Field, Middletown, Pennsylvania, 20 May 37-21 May 42 Stout Field, Indianapolis, Indiana, 21 May-1 Jul 42 Kellogg Field, Battle Creek, Michigan, 1 Jul-4 Aug 42 Bowman Field, Louisville, Kentucky, 2 Aug-1 Oct 42 Pope Field, Ft Bragg, North Carolina, 1 Oct 42-23 Jan 43 3d Transport Squadron, 20 May 37-10 May 41 Duncan Field, San Antonio, Texas (NOTE: Duncan and Kelly Fields were combined as Kelly Field, 2 Mar 43), 20 May 37-10 May 41 4th Transport Squadron, 20 May 37-10 May 41 Rockwell Field, San Diego, California, 20 May 37-1 Dec 38 Sacramento Air Depot, Sacramento, California (renamed McClellan Field, 1 Dec 39), 1 Dec 38-10 May 41 5th Transport/Troop Carrier Squadron, 14 Oct 39-14 Apr 44 Patterson Field, Fairfield, Ohio 14 Oct 39-25 May 42 General Billy Mitchell Field, Milwaukee, Wisconsin, 25 May-4 Oct 42 Pope Field, Ft Bragg, North Carolina, 4 Oct-2 Dec 42 Lawson Field, Ft Benning, Georgia, 2 Dec 42-26 Jan 44 Grenada AAFld, Grenada, Mississippi, 26 Jan-12 Mar 44 Alliance AAFld, Alliance, Nebraska, 12 Mar-14 Apr 44 27th Transport/Troop Carrier Squadron, 15 Jun 42-12 Jan 44 Harding Field, Baton Rouge, Louisiana, 15-21 Jun 42 Kellogg Field, Battle Creek, Michigan, 21 Jun-5 Aug 42 Bowman Field, Louisville, Kentucky, 5 Aug-4 Oct 42 Pope Field, Ft Bragg, North Carolina, 4 Oct-2 Dec 42 Lawson Field, Ft Benning, Georgia, 2 Dec 42-14 Feb 43 Dunnellon AAFld, Dunnellon, Florida, 14 Feb-13 Dec 43 38th Transport/Troop Carrier Squadron, 19 May 42-14 Apr 44 Patterson Field, Fairfield, Ohio, 19-30 May 42 Stout Field, Indianapolis, Indiana, 30 May-3 Dec 42 Knobnoster AAB, Knobnoster, Missouri, 3 Dec 42-5 Apr 43 Bowman Field, Louisville, Kentucky, 5 Apr 43-21 Jun 43 Laurinburg-Maxton AAB, Maxton, North Carolina, 21 Jun-10 Sep 43 Camp Mackall, Hoffman, North Carolina, 10 Sep 43-17 Jan 44 Laurinburg-Maxton AAB, 17 Jan-14 Apr 44 307th Troop Carrier Squadron, 15 Mar 43-14 Apr 44 Baer Field, Fort Wayne, Indiana, 15 Mar-6 May 43 Grenada AAFld, Grenada, Mississippi, 6 May-5 Jun 43 Lawson Field, Ft Benning, Georgia, 5 Jun 43-28 Jan 44 Grenada AAFld, 28 Jan-12 Mar 44 Alliance AAFld, Alliance, Nebraska, 12 Mar-14 Apr 44 308th Troop Carrier Squadron, 15 Mar 43-14 Apr 44 Baer Field, Fort Wayne, Indiana, 15 Mar-6 May 43 Grenada AAFld, Grenada, Mississippi, 6 May-5 Jun 43 Lawson Field, Ft Benning, Georgia, 5 Jun 43-28 Jan 44 Grenada AAFld, 28 Jan-12 Mar 44 Alliance AAFld, Alliance, Nebraska, 12 Mar-14 Apr 44 The group was initially assigned to the Office of Chief of the Air Corps and provided aerial transportation of men and equipment in the US. On 20 Jun 38, the 10th transferred to Wright Field, Dayton, Ohio and then back to Patterson Field on 17 Jan 41. On 15 Mar 41, the 10th was reassigned to the Air Corps Provisional Maintenance Command (redesignated Air Corps Maintenance Command on 29 Apr 41 and Air Service Command on 17 Oct 41); on 30 Apr 42, it was reassigned to the Air Transport Command (redesignated I Troop Carrier Command on 4 Jul 42) and transferred to General Billy Mitchell Field, Milwaukee, Wisconsin on 25 May 42. On 4 Jul 42, all Transport Groups/Squadrons were redesignated Troop Carrier Groups/Squadrons. For the remainder of it's active service, the 10th trained cadres for troop carrier groups and in 1943 was given the additional duty of training replacement crews. During this period, the 10th transferred to Pope Field, Ft Bragg, North Carolina on 4 Oct 42; Dunnellon AAFld, Dunnellon, Florida on 13 Feb 43; Lawson Field, Ft Benning, Georgia on 30 Nov 43; Grenada AAFld, Grenada, Mississippi on 21 Jan 44; and Alliance AAFld, Alliance, Nebraska on 8 Mar 44. The group was disbanded on 14 Apr 44. 47th PURSUIT/FIGHTER SQUADRON ----------------------------- The 47th Pursuit Squadron (Fighter) was constitued on 22 Nov 40 and activated on 1 Dec 40 at Wheeler Field, Oahu, Territory of Hawaii assigned to the 15th Pursuit Group (Fighter). The squadron was initially equipped with Boeing P-26 Peashooters but transitioned to Curtiss P-36's and P-40's in 1941. The squadron's complement of aircraft on 7 Dec 41 was: 11 Curtiss P-40B's [7 out of comm-1st echelon mtce] 2 Boeing P-26B Peashooters [1 out of comm-1st echelon mtce] 2 Curtiss P-36A Hawks [1 out of comm-1st echelon mtce] 2 Curtiss P-40C's [1 out of comm-1st echelon mtce] 1 Martin B-12 The 47th began flying patrols over the Pacific and provide air defense for the Hawaiian Islands until Dec 44. On 15 Feb 42, the 47th was redesignated 47th Pursuit Squadron (Interceptor) and the 15th became a Pursuit Group (Interceptor); on 22 Feb, the squadron transferred to Bellows Field, Oahu; and on 25 Mar to Haleiwa Field. On 15 May 42, all Interceptor Commands and Pursuit Wings/Groups/Squadrons were redesignated Fighter Commands/Wings/ Groups/Squadrons. Stations during 1943 and 1944 consisted of Barking Sands, (29 Jul-8 Nov 43), Mokuleia Field (8 Nov 43-8 Jun 44) and Bellows Field (8 Jun 44-27 Jan 45). During 1943, the 47th transitioned from P-36's and P-40's to P-47's and in late 1944, transitioned from P-47's to P-51D's. The 47th departed Hawaii and arrived at South Field, Iwo Jima on 27 Feb 45. Their first mission was flown on 10 Mar 45. The squadron received a Distinguished Unit Citation for escorting B-29's that bombed the Nakajima aircraft plant near Tokyo on 7 Apr 45. The 47th struck Japanese airfields on Kyushu late in Apr and early in May 45 to curtail the Japanese suicide attacks against the US Naval ships at Okinawa. They also hit enemy troop trains, small factories, gun positions and hangars in the Bonin Islands and Japan. They continued flying fighter sweeps against Japanese airfields and other targets, and flew long-range escort missions to Japanese cities until their last mission on 14 Aug 45. The 47th transferred without personnel and equipment to Bellows Field, Oahu on 25 Nov 45 where the squadron was remanned and re-equipped with P-51's. Transferring to Wheeler Field on 9 Feb 46, the squadron was inactivated on 15 Oct 46. The 47th was redesignated the 47th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron on 10 Oct 52 and activated at Niagara Falls Municipal Airport, New York on 1 Dec 52 assigned to the 4708th Defense Wing, Air Defense Command; the squadron was reassigned to the 518th Air Defense Group on 16 Feb 53 and the 15th Fighter Group (Air Defense) on 18 Aug 55. Initially equipped with Republic F-47 Thunderbolts, the squadron transitioned to F-86D Sabre's in 1953 and F-102A Delta Darts in 1958. The 47th was discontinued on 1 Jul 60. Redesignated 47th Tactical Fighter Squadron on 17 Apr 62, the squadron was organized on 1 Jul 62 at MacDill AFB, Tampa, Florida assigned to the 15th Tactical Fighter Wing. Initally equipped with F-84's, the squadron conducted tactical fighter combat crew training, 1962-63, participated in a variety of exercises, operations and readiness tests of the Tactical Air Command, 1963-65. Reorganized as a mission-capable unit at the time of the Cuban missile crisis of 1962, returning afterwards to a training mission. In 1964, the 47th transitioned from F-84's to F-4's and deployed to Southeast Asia 22 Jul-27 Nov 65. Between 1965 and 1970, the 47th functioned as a replacement training unit for F-4 aircrews. The 15th Tactical Fighter Wing and the 47th Tactical Fighter Squadron were inactivated on 1 Oct 70. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 07:24:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: USAAF 1 FEB 44 COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES MONDAY, 1 FEBRUARY 1944 FTP SITES 1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf 2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/ wwii_chronology AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT: A-20, Douglas Havoc A-36, North American Apache B-24, Consolidated Liberator B-25, North American Mitchell Beaufighter, Bristol C-47, Douglas Skytrain F-5, Lockheed Lightning P-38, Lockheed Lightning P-39, Bell Airacobra P-40, Curtiss P-47, Republic Thunderbolt P-51, North American Mustang P-70, Douglas CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 6 B-24's bomb Mingaladon Airfield; another hits the airfield at Nyaungbinwun; 32 P-51's and A-36's and a single B-25 hit the main airfield at Myitkyina; some of the aircraft then strafe the Radhapur transport depot and storage area to the NW. CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China during Feb 44, a detachment of the 16th Fighter Squadron, 51st Fighter Group, based at Chengkung, operates from Nanning with P-40's; 449th Fighter Squadron, 51st Fighter Group, transfers from Kunming to Suichwan with P-38's. EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Transfers in England: 363d Fighter Squadron, 357th Fighter Group from Raydon to Leiston with P-51's (first mission is 11 Feb); 752d, 753, 754th and 755th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy, 458th Bombardment Group (Heavy) from US to Horsham St Faith with B-24's (first mission is 24 Feb). Transfers in England during Feb 44: HQ 95th Combat Bombardment Wing (Heavy) from Attlebridge to Ketteringham; HQ 491st Bombardment Group (Heavy) to North Pickenham. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Colonel Clarence E Crumrine temporarily takes command of the XIX Air Support Command, replacing Major General Elwood R Quesada. The latter assumes command of the IX Air Support Command which assumes control of all fighter and reconnaissance units of the IX Fighter Command. Transfers in England: HQ IX Air Support Command from Aldermaston Court to Middle Wallop; HQ XIX Air Support Command from Middle Wallop to Aldermaston Court; HQ 416th Bombardment Group (Light) and 669th, 670th and 671st Bombardment Squadrons (Light) from the US to Wethersfield with A-20's (first mission is 3 Mar); 30th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, III Reconnaissance Command, from the US to Chalgrove with F-5's (first mission is 25 Feb); 366th Fighter Squadron, 58th Fighter Group, from Leiston to Raydon with P-47's. Transfers in UK during Feb 44: HQ 438th Troop Carrier Group and 87th, 88th, 89th and 90th Troop Carrier Squadrons from the US with C-47's. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Operations are limited to a fighter sweep of the Orvieto-Viterbo, Italy area by P-47's and to photo and weather reconnaissance. HQ 301st Bombardment Group (Heavy) transfers from Cerignola to Lucera, Italy. Transfers in Italy during Feb 44: HQ 305th Bombardment Wing (Heavy) from Foggia to Spinazzola. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25's bomb the Albano Laziale road junction; P-40's bomb Cori, while A-36's hit Poggio Mieteto and P-47's attack the station at San Valentino; fighters cover the Anzio battle area. Detachment of 91st Fighter Squadron, 81st Fighter Group, operating from Capodichino, Italy with P-39's, returns to base at Montecorvino Airfield. During Feb 44, HQ 81st Fighter Group and 93d Fighter Squadron transfer from Castelvetrano, Sicily to Montecorvino Airfield with P-39's. During Feb, ground echelon of 417th Night Fighter Squadron, Twelfth Air Force (attached to RAF No. 337 Wing) transfers from Ghisonaccia to Borgo, Corsica; air echelon is at La Senia, Algeria with Beaufighters. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): In the Marshall Islands, B-24's from Makin Island, Gilbert Islands hit the beach defenses on Kwajalein Island; P-40's on armed reconnaissance over Mille Atoll strafe a beached schooner. Operation CATCHPOLE (operations against Eniwetok and Ujelang Atolls in the Marshall Islands) is begun to occupy and defend Eniwetok Atoll, which is to furnish a striking base for operations against the Marianas Islands. During the operation, Seventh Air Force aircraft operating from newly acquired bases in the Gilbert and Marshall Islands neutralize airfields in the Marianas and continue to pound by-passed airfields in the Marshalls. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): Weather prevents 50 B-24's sent against installations in the Admiralty Islands from reaching the target; 2 B-24's bomb a freighter NE of Vanimo, New Guinea while a single B-24 on armed reconnaissance strafes barges in the Solomon Sea. HQ 308th and 309th Bombardment Wings (Heavy) and 310th Bombardment Wing (Medium) are activated at Oro Bay, Lae and Gusap New Guinea respectively; the wings will operate with various groups that are attached for brief periods. Transfers in New Guinea: 8th Bombardment Squadron (Light) from Dobodura to Nadzab with A-20's; 421st Night Fighter Squadron, V Fighter Command, from Milne Bay to Nadzab with P-70's. In New Guinea during Feb 44, a detachment of the 26th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, 6th Photographic Reconnaissance Group, based at Dobodura, begins operating from Port Moresby with F-5's. SOURCES: AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1 COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF 1982 THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973 THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2 Jack McKillop USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service) 1955-59 ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jack McKillop | Those who have long enjoyed such | | Bellcore | privileges as we enjoy forget in | | Piscataway, NJ USA | time that men have died to win | | jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com | them. FDR | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 07:41:40 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Bob Smart Subject: Re: MEDIA: Telly Savales dead at 70 In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 26 Jan 94 11:32:11 -0500. <9401262134.AA25465@beetle.hq.Verdix.COM> > Joe, Who could ever forget Telly as "Big Joe" or as the "nut" in the Dirty > Dozen,the tank Sgt. in The Battle of the Bulge? I put him in the category > of actors like John Wayne or Squint Eastwood. These actor merely play > themselves in role after role convincing and entertaining as Barrymore ever > was. > > How about this as a topic real soldiers that became actors like Sterling > Hayden. Cheers ....hakl... I just came across an Interview with Douglass Fairbanks in a recent 'Naval History' Magazine ( I think it was October 93, and y'all think I'm behind on ww2-l :-)). Seems he served a pretty unglamorous tour of duty in the Atlantic and Mediterranian theaters. You might want to look it up as a counter point to some other actors wartime tours. Also recently some folks asked me forfurther info on the Book World (the outlet in Martinsburg WV.) I was there on Sunday and picked up the phone number and address. I'll try to post it from home tonight. I picked up German Tank And Antitank for $5.00 while I was there. They had several volumes of what appeared to be a series on German uniforms and Equipment. I think they were primarily SS but I'm not sure. A lot of other books including one by the US Naval Institute Press which is a collection of the articles by Japanese Naval Officers that first appeared in Proceedings years ago. I picked that on up several months ago and can provide more detailed info from home. Now a question What do y'all think of Six Armies in Normandy? I seem to remember it getting good reviews when it came out but seem to remember being disappointed when I gave it a cursery reading. I'm wondering if I need to look at it again. ( and it is at Book World cheap :-)) Bob Smart (bsmart@smart.com) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 08:05:08 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Bill Vasilion Subject: Thank you.. Today I received information I was looking for.... to the author I want to thank publicly.... My dad did not talk much about what he did during the ww-II though I knew he was a 1st sargent and knew he went to Iwoa Jima.. I had no idea what units he served with actually did.... I found in one book that he was on Iwo JIma living in foxholes for two weeks while the Marines were fighting for the island. He said that the Navy Dauntless Bombers were hitting the island with bombs... ............. If anyone on this list is a veteran from that campaign I would like to hear from them....or tell me of thier experience.... I have photos of the japenese pillboxes blown up and some of the machine gun nests carved out of the stone or ??? Also have photos of the US Soilders lining up for mess from the the tents.... they are all fading now... This country sound do more to honor the vets than we do..... thanks again.........bill bvasili@vnet.ibm.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 08:40:13 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Sidney W. Kitchel" Subject: Re: WWII-L Meeting In-Reply-To: from "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A." at Jan 31, 94 07:18:44 pm AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A. writes: |-> |-> While having lunch with Sid Kitchel in Bloomington last fall, he talked |-> about another list he is on that got together at a final four site for |-> the NCAA and spent some time together. I was thinking it might be a |-> good thing for us to do. It's a quite interesting experience to meet people you only know electronically. I think Tim has a good idea and will try to make it to St. Louis myself. For the record, by April my basketball group will have had a second meeting. This year we're going to Ogden, Utah for the first round of the NCAA Tournament at Weber State. --Sid -- Sidney W. Kitchel kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com Data Parallel Systems, Inc. ============|| DPSI ||=============== 4617 E. Morningside Drive (812) 334-8100 Bloomington, Indiana, 47408 USA FAX: (812) 334-8121 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 08:03:21 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A." Subject: Re[2]: War criminal ... or unprofessional? :-) In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of MON 31 JAN 1994 06:58:56 CST I heard this story from a reenacting friend of mine, who reenacts Royal Winnepeg Rifles, Canadian. He said that the RWR's were all a pretty young unit, and immaturity often leads to atrocity. The RWR's were conducting an attack, and strapped a living German Officer to the glacis plate on the front of the tank. This occured right before they began an attack, and the "ground guided" tank led the formation. Tell me that isn;t a war crime. Apparently the RWR's participated in several war crimes, especially during the time near Carpiquet Airport. I can not quote any references because my friend has them all, but I will see him this weekend, if any one wants more details. It seems to me maturity has a big factor in how people handle themselves. The RWR's was a very young unit, with the average soldier being in the 17-19 range during the Normandy Campaign. They were fighting the 12th SS Hitlerjungend Division. Children fighting children. In case anybody is interested, as of a month ago, the USS Innaugrial, the WWII minesweeper ported in St Louis, was still at the bottom of the Mississippi, with it's dock still attached. I've not heard of any plans to raise or scrap her. Tim ************************************************************************ * Tim A. Scherrer "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of * * Facilities Supervisor your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971 * * WP:816-785-5253 * * HP:816-665-6704 * * ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU * ************************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 10:15:42 -0400 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Mike Bechthold Subject: Re: Re[2]: War criminal ... or unprofessional? :-) In-Reply-To: <9402011449.AA00879@mach1.wlu.ca> Tim, I have no doubt that Allied soldiers in Normandy committed what might be considered atrocities in battle, but you must be careful using the term "war crimes". To my way of thinking there is a big deference between acts committed in the heat of battle, for instance the shooting of an enemy soldier when if given a chance he would of surrendered compared to cold-blooded, pre-meditated murder such as happened to a group of Canadian soldiers executed in the Ardenne Abbey by soldiers of the 12th SS under command of a staff officer. The battles around Carpiquet airport witnessed some of the most brutal fighting in Normandy but I have never heard anything about war crimes being committed. Also, for the record I would like to point out two points. First the Royal Winnipeg Rifles was an infantry unit, not armoured and second, the average age of Canadian soldiers at the start of the Normandy campaign was around 25. The soldiers of the Royal Winnipeg Rifles, were typical in that they enlisted in 1939-1940 and had spent the last four years in England training. They were a green unit, but not young. On Tue, 1 Feb 1994, AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A. wrote: > I heard this story from a reenacting friend of mine, who reenacts Royal > Winnepeg Rifles, Canadian. He said that the RWR's were all a pretty > young unit, and immaturity often leads to atrocity. The RWR's were > conducting an attack, and strapped a living German Officer to the glacis > plate on the front of the tank. This occured right before they began an > attack, and the "ground guided" tank led the formation. Tell me that > isn;t a war crime. > > Apparently the RWR's participated in several war crimes, especially > during the time near Carpiquet Airport. I can not quote any references > because my friend has them all, but I will see him this weekend, if any > one wants more details. > > It seems to me maturity has a big factor in how people handle > themselves. The RWR's was a very young unit, with the average soldier > being in the 17-19 range during the Normandy Campaign. They were > fighting the 12th SS Hitlerjungend Division. Children fighting > children. > > In case anybody is interested, as of a month ago, the USS Innaugrial, > the WWII minesweeper ported in St Louis, was still at the bottom of the > Mississippi, with it's dock still attached. I've not heard of any plans > to raise or scrap her. > > Tim > > ************************************************************************ > * Tim A. Scherrer "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of * > * Facilities Supervisor your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971 * > * WP:816-785-5253 * > * HP:816-665-6704 * > * ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU * > ************************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 10:10:56 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: GEORGE BAUER Organization: Rockhurst College; Kansas City, MO Subject: Re: WWII-L Meeting Your get-together idea is interesting... Coming to St. Louis would also give me a chance to investigate the B-25 which is apparently still based there. Keep me informed. ========================================================================= | DR. GEORGE R. BAUER | INTERESTS: | | | Computers in Business & Education. | | Recently returned from my second | Education: Curriculum development.| | extended stay in Prague. | International Education, TEFL. | | | Central Europe: Post revolution | | Working on second book about | economic, social, political | | Prague and new Czech Republic. | problems and opportunities. | | E-Mail: | Free lance writing and editing. | | USA: BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET | Stamp collecting. | ========================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 11:52:54 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Ryan Subject: Re: U.S. Lieut. killing bad guards In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 30 Jan 1994 00:53:26 CST from Sly, A lot of people who were convicted of war crimes by the Allies after the war, were "simply doing their job." Just because someone is doing their job does not mean that they are relieved of all guilt. If the case did go to court eventaully, what other witnesses would there have been besides the angry POW's? The lt. could not have known what the post war system of war criminal prosecution could have been like and did the best he could to rectify the situation. Ryan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 13:07:48 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Ryan O'Neil Subject: Re: War criminal ... or unprofessional? :-) In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 31 Jan 1994 08:55:44 EST from Charles, Yours was the convincing post on the subject and made me rethink my postion. I hadn't given a lot of consideration to the fact that the newly liberated POW's did not realize that they would be sentencing the "bad" guards to death. This naturally makes everything that much fuzzier. Then again, I am not even sure that it would have been proper had the guards known. Thank you very much for your insightful posting. I will admit that I was wrong. Ryan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 13:36:36 -0400 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Horner Organization: from SUNY College at Buffalo, NY 14222 Subject: Foo Fighters John and LTC Con Crane, You brought up a very interesting and mysterious phenomenon that occurred not only in the Pacific but also in Europe. The "Foo Fighters" were encountered by allied aircraft and were variously described as lights, small silvery spheres or rockets that seemed to be able to maneuver with intelligent control. The interesting thing about them is that the official conclusion from the 8th Air Force was that they were a device send up by the Germans to assist in aiming flak guns, but after the war, they were surprised to learn that the Germans were just as confused about the true identity of the Foo Fighters as they were! I have a clipping from an AP bullitan that describes them, and I'll try to check up on my info if anyone is interested (my info is at home, I'm at work....) Greetings to all, John Horner SUNY at Delhi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 12:45:12 CST Reply-To: rjg@umnstat.stat.umn.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Robert J. Granvin" Subject: Re: WWII-L Meeting In-Reply-To: ; from "GEORGE BAUER" at Feb 1, 94 10:10 am > Your get-together idea is interesting... Coming to St. Louis would also give > me a chance to investigate the B-25 which is apparently still based there. > > Keep me informed. We could do this all over the place. I always like to suggest Minneapolis (because I can rarely get anywhere else and no one ever comes here... :-) We have our annual WWII Aircraft static display plus two USO-style big band hangar dances (and of course, the MOA (Marketing Operations Area aka Mall of America)). BTW: We have three B-25s in the neighborhood, including Miss Mitchell. :-) (The B-25 in St. Louis is Show Me, of the CAF. They got pretty much wiped out in the floods last year. The B-25 is safe, but the P-63 found itself under water along with the rest of the hangar and airport...) -- Robert J. Granvin Southern Minnesota Wing rjg@stat.umn.edu Confederate Air Force ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 12:44:33 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A." Subject: Re[2]: WWII-L Meeting In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of MON 31 JAN 1994 23:10:56 CST The B-25 located in the St. Louis area is "Show Me", and is based out of St. Charles. I do not have any contacts with the Confederate Air Force, other than Robert Granvin. He might be able to help since he is a PAO type for them. I will see if I can't get a firm date for the Jefferson Barracks weekend tonight. Regarding the Royal Winnepeg Rifles, I will check with my source this weekend. He has been a WWII reenactor on the Commonwealth side for about 10 years, and has contacts with the RWR veteran's groups. The infor I posted was read to me on the phone. Some of it was from the Regimental Histry. I will see what additional details I can find out. And yes, the RWR were an infantry unit, but they were supported by tanks at the time of the incident I cited. TAS ************************************************************************ * Tim A. Scherrer "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of * * Facilities Supervisor your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971 * * WP:816-785-5253 * * HP:816-665-6704 * * ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU * ************************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 10:51:32 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: CRYPTOLOGY IN WWII You studying at George Brown College? If so, there is a lot of info close by you. Central Reference Library, Yonge & bloor, History Department. Plenty of references there. Give it a shot. Good hunting. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 15:28:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: First Daylight Raid on Berlin SUBJ: AIR FORCE NEWS SERVICE FEATURES ELECTRONIC BULLETIN BOARD FILENAME: 94feb01 This electronic features package is published semi-monthly, on the 1st and 15th of each month, by the Air Force News Agency, 1015 Billy Mitchell Rd., Kelly AFB, TX, 78241-5601. Information in AFNS Features is for use by Air Force base newspaper editors and editors of other Air Force publications. Please credit AFNS Features and individual authors for material used. & & & & & & & & & 017. First Army Air Force daylight bombing of Berlin - March 4, 1944 by Maj. Richard L. Sargent, USAFR By late February 1944 long-range fighter escorts routinely protected American heavy bombers on daylight missions against targets in central Germany. Sweeping out from the bomber formations, the fighter escorts aggressively hunted German fighters, preventing them from stopping the bombers. Their confidence in daylight strategic bombardment rising with each successful mission, 8th Air Force commanders turned their attention to Berlin, the capital of Nazi Germany. A distant, well-defended target of tremendous psychological significance, Berlin suffered only sporadic nighttime bombing by the Royal Air Force prior to March 1944. Hitler's capital lay deep in central Germany, thus an attacking force had to fly nearly 1,200 miles for almost 6 1/2 hours over hostile territory. On March 3, the bombing force was briefed for Berlin targets. Unfortunately, the bombers ran into steadily deteriorating weather as they flew over the North Sea. Over the Jutland Peninsula, cloud tops extended to 28,000 feet and, together with the dense and persistent contrails, made formation flying almost impossible. Most of the combat wings aborted the mission while others bombed various targets of opportunity. On March 4, snow flurries and extended cloud cover again forced most of the heavy bombers to turn back or hit targets of opportunity in the Rhur Valley. One of the 14 8th AF combat wings, however, managed to bomb the Klein Machnow suburb southwest of Berlin. P-51 Mustangs escorted the 31 B-17s that flew to Berlin, and they suppressed the aggressive, although ineffective, attacks of 30 to 35 single-engine German fighters. The 29 B-17s that bombed their targets began a promising visual attack through a break in the clouds on the Bosch plant, makers of specialized electrical equipment for aircraft and military vehicles, but they were forced to continue the run by radar. Bad weather, rather than enemy action, apparently caused the loss of two bombers. Though no serious target damage resulted, the mission of March 4, 1944, was an important moral victory over the Nazis that significantly boosted Allied morale. The London Evening Standard, in a leading editorial headed "Allies over Berlin!" spoke hopefully of the increased scope of integrated Anglo-American bombing and saw in this first raid by the "Yanks" to a target long held in high regard by the RAF "a sign of the unshakable comradeship" of the American and British peoples. This historical mission was the first of 21 8th AF raids on the German capital city. The decision to undertake an intensive bombardment of Berlin implied a new confidence on the part of the American air command in the ability of the long-range P-51 fighter escort to take the heavy bombers to distant and well-defended targets. In fact, the Berlin campaign of March 1944 marked an important milestone in the development of the long-range fighter. (Sargent is assigned to the Air Force Historical Research Agency, Maxwell AFB, Ala.) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 15:57:06 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Crane Conrad LTC Subject: Re: Foo Fighters >John and LTC Con Crane, >You brought up a very interesting and mysterious phenomenon that occurred >not only in the Pacific but also in Europe. The "Foo Fighters" were >encountered by allied aircraft and were variously described as lights, >small silvery spheres or rockets that seemed to be able to maneuver with >intelligent control. The interesting thing about them is that the official >conclusion from the 8th Air Force was that they were a device send up by >the Germans to assist in aiming flak guns, but after the war, they were >surprised to learn that the Germans were just as confused about the true >identity of the Foo Fighters as they were! I have a clipping from an AP >bullitan that describes them, and I'll try to check up on my info if anyone >is interested (my info is at home, I'm at work....) > >Greetings to all, > >John Horner >SUNY at Delhi John, I initially hesitated to use that term in my comments, since I have seen some UFO advocates who claim foo-fighters were really flying saucers, but the term did show up in one of the eye-witness accounts. That particular account also claimed one of the objects struck and destroyed a B-29. Another saw them dropped from Japanese medium-bombers, just like the Baka. We'll probably never solve this one. Con Crane ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 18:15:31 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Larry & Kim Jewell Subject: ADMIN: Back soon now... In-Reply-To: <9402011733.AA27340@mace.cc.purdue.edu>; from "GEORGE BAUER" at Feb 1, 94 10:10 am HI, I hope to be back to full speed by the end of the week. Until then I would like to make a gentle suggestion that we all conduct ourselves in the manner that WWII-L has come to expect. If anyone can not do so, save me some time and delete yourself. I expect an occasional "hasty" posting to contain some unfortunate wording. I do not expect it to escalate beyond that point. If anyone takes personal exception to anything posted here, I expect any responses to be in the private mail. WWII-L is not a forum for airing greivances and I'll shut the whole thing down before I'll let it become the kind of flame-fest soc.history has become. If this is not immeniently clear to anyone, feel free to write me. Larry J JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU "Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life." Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 18:25:55 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Larry & Kim Jewell Subject: CFV: soc.history.moderated In-Reply-To: <9402012114.AA24547@mace.cc.purdue.edu>; from "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A." at Feb 1, 94 12:44 pm FIRST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2) Moderated group soc.history.moderated Newsgroups line: soc.history.moderated Historical discussions on any historically-relevant topic (moderated). Votes must be received by 23:59:59 GMT, 22 February 1994. This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party. For voting questions only, contact Jay Maynard, jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu. For questions about the proposed group, contact the group's proposer, Mike Traynor, at traynor@fnalo.fnal.gov. CHARTER Title: soc.history.moderated This will be a moderated group. Moderators: Volunteers are very much still encouraged. Preliminary names include the following: Todd McComb (mccombtm@netcom.com) David Morton (gt2692@prism.gatech.edu) Richard Miller (rick@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu) Lance Visser (visser@dhostwo.convex.com) Laura Mollett (Art History) (lcmoll00@aix3090b.uky.edu) Jason Esser (BA History) (esse0002@gold.tc.umn.edu) Gary Hewitt (glhewitt@phoenix.princeton.edu) Laura Burchard (lhb@vnet.ibm.com) Stephen Graham (graham@cs.washington.edu) Stephen Balbach (?) (BA History) (stephen@clark.net) Matthew Mckenzie (mmckenzi@uga.cc.uga.edu) Mike Traynor (traynor@fnalo.fnal.gov) More help would be appreciated. Charter: The group will allow a free-flowing discussion of historical events and trends of _general_ intrest to the Usenet history devotees. If desired later, this group will allow for subgroup formation into seperate historical periods and topics. The moderator will have broad powers to determine what topics are of general interest. A non-exclusive list of post characteristics the moderator can use to determine the acceptance or rejection of a post for general posting in the group are: o ad-hominem attacks o flames o pathological cross-postings for a given posts (for example, cross-postings to/from groups that bear little relation to the nature of the post) o use of inappropriate vulgarisms in a post o general tastlessness in a post o a non-replyable e-mail address If the moderator so desires, she/he will respond to a rejected post stating the reasons for rejection, and if she/he so desires, suggesting modifications that will allow a modified post into the group. Lively, animated discussions on historical events or topics where there is genuine controversy, or where there is general consensus, are encouraged. Requests for information are also encouraged. HOW TO VOTE Send MAIL to: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu Just Replying should work if you are not reading this on a mailing list. Please do not post your vote, as it won't count and may well earn you flames from the peanut gallery. Your mail message should contain one of the following statements: I vote YES on soc.history.moderated I vote NO on soc.history.moderated You may also ABSTAIN in place of YES/NO - this will not affect the outcome. Anything else may be rejected by the automatic vote counting program. Please don't include a copy of this entire message; it just wastes disk space. The votetaker will respond to your received ballots with a personal acknowledge- ment by mail - if you do not receive one within several days, try again. It's your responsibility to make sure your vote is registered correctly. Only one vote per person and per account will be counted. Addresses and votes of all voters will be published in the final voting results list. -- Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu | adequately be explained by stupidity. "The difference between baseball and politics is that, in baseball, if you get caught stealing, you're out!" -- Ed Shanks ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 19:22:39 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Joshua Norton Subject: Re: U.S. Lieut. killing bad guards For those who would like to see some cold hard facts concerning human behavior in the area of prison guards (or for that matter soldiers), I recommend going to a local library and picking up an Introduction to Psychology book. Look up Milgram's experiment concerning obedience and Zimbardo's prison study. Both of these experiments are documented, and they will astound some of you that have been sending some interesting messages on the list. These experiments were conducted with Americans as subjects. JPN ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 18:34:49 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A." Subject: Re: WWIIHRS and WWIIAPS schedules In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of TUE 01 FEB 1994 14:28:00 CST The Jefferson Barracks event is scheduled for April 30-1 M. I am posting the WWII Historical Reenactment Society and WWII Airman's Preservation Society schedule of events, as they stand today. March (date unspecified) WWIIHRS, Weldon Springs, MO, Weldon Springs Reeanctment, This event is presently up in the air. Weldon is the birthplace of WWII reenacting, and has been closed for several years due to toxic and radioactive waste cleanup. The HRS is presently working with the Army reserve to get the site opened for reenacting again. More details will follow, if they develop. March 27-28, WWIIHRS, Rosemont, MN, Western Front Battle April 30-1 May, WWIIHRS, Jefferson Barracks (South St Louis County), MO battle reeanctments and displays, Saturday night includes a USO show and dance. WWIIAPS members will be present as well. May 27-30, WWIIHRS and WWIIAPS, Columbia, MO, Salute to Veterans, display on Saturday and Sunday, parade on Monday, A very large airshow with many aircraft. Blue Angels performed Memorial Day '93. 4 June, WWIIHRS, Chicago (lakefront), IL, D-Day reenactment, to include landing craft provided by the USN, event to be covered live by WGN. 4 June Weekend, WWIIHRS (event sponcered by WWII Historical Reemactment Federation), 5 day D-day event, includes 2 days of spectator landings, 1 day of tactical combat village battle, and a USO show. (this one is supposed to be the reenactment to end all reenactments) More details to follow. June 11-12, WWIIAPS, Dyersburg, TN, airshow June 25-26 (date not confirmed), WWIIHRS (sponcered by 11th Panzer), New Lenox, IL, Airshow and battle reenactments, small event but good campsites and the public can get up close to the reenactors July 15-17 WWIIAPS, Oklahoma City, OK, airshow July 28-August 2, WWIIAPS, Oshkosh, WI, EAA Fly Inn (need I say anymore? September 3-5, WWIIAPS, Louisville, KY, Clark County Airport, Airshow September 21-24, WWIIAPS, Oklahoma City, OK, 91st Bomb Group Reunion, (WWIIAPS portrays the 91st, so this is a big event) September (no date specified), Chesterfield, MO, Spirit of St Louis Apt, Airshow (this event was canceled last year due to floating lear jets) December 17, WWIIAPS, Chicago, IL, Christmas Party, probably to be held at 91st Aero Squadron near O'Hare Airport, St Louis members last year took the train to and from the event. As you can see, the WWIIHRS calender has not filled up yet--more info should be coming later about events. If anyone has any questions, please contact me direct. TAS ************************************************************************ * Tim A. Scherrer "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of * * Facilities Supervisor your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971 * * WP:816-785-5253 * * HP:816-665-6704 * * ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU * ************************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 22:05:14 CST Reply-To: salvin@heartland.bradley.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Steve Alvin Subject: Re: B Vasilion - USAAF Units I find it interesting that the 47th was re-activated in 1952 with F-47's. I have read in numerous places that the Air Force would have prefered F-47's over F-51's in Korea because the Thunderbolt's radial engine was more rugged that the packard-merlin. But, according to these accounts there were no 47's available. Was the F-47 still in squadron service in the 1950's? Sorry, I know this is a little off topic. -- Steve Alvin salvin@heartland.bradley.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 20:38:00 PST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Carey Stephens Subject: Naziism & the Occult Hi, I'm looking for some references on the connection between Naziism, Satanism, and maybe even the New Age cult/religion that's come to the surface in the last 25 years. Initiation into the SS and the Nazi party involved strange ceremonies and rites that bear some resemblance to a New Age religion. Marriage and funeral ceremonies among Nazis were conspicuously detached from Christianity, and we all know Germany is predominantly Protestant with Catholic minorities. The Nazis claimed to have a blood connection with the Fatherland, possibly implying a distorted revival of prechristian Earth-worship. But the Nazi philosophy obviously had love for nothing more than militarism and violence. I hope I've sparked some interest. -Dylan Fierro ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 00:02:59 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: "CARL WERNKE (TCWERNC@VCCSCENT)" Subject: Re: Ref:Re: Bombing ships by air launched weapons X-To: WWII-L@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu To: Multiple recipients of list WWII-L (WWII-L@UBVM.BITNET) Con, John, et al., The Yokosuka MXY7 Navy Suicide Attacker Ohka (Cherry Blossom) Model 11 aircraft was primarily designed as an anti-invasion or coastal defence weapon to be launched from a parent aircraft. Following an initial glide after release from the mother pane, the MXY7 was to accelerate towards its target on the power of three solid-propellant rockets mounted in the tail, being fired either singly or in unison. This aws also a "Baka" type bomb. The design and construction of unpowered prototypes was completed in a matter of weeks, and by the end of September 1944 ten MXY7s had been completed. Naned Suicide Attacker Ohka (Cherry Blossom) Model 11, the initial version was to carry a 2,646 warhead in the nose and be transported in the bomb_bay of a specially modified Navy Type 1 Attack Bomber Model 24J (G4M2e), named Betty by the Allies. The Ohka Model 11 could reach a top speed of 250 kt (288 mph) without power and 350 kt (403 mph) with full thrust. On 21 March, 1945, the Ohka Model 11 was taken into battle by the 721st Kokutai, but sixteen G4M2e parent aircraft were intercepted and forced to release their weapons short of the target. The first success was achieved on 1 April when Ohkas damaged the battleship * West Virginia * and three transport vessels, while the first Allied ship sunk by Ohka aircraft was the destroyer * Mannert L.Abele * , lost off Okinawa on 12 April. The slow and cumberson parent aircraft proved to be extremely vulnerable when approaching to within a few miles of well-defended targets, and production of the Ohka Model 11 ceased in March 1945. Other developments of the Ohka series included a single Ohka Model 11 experimentally fitted with wings made by Nakajima out of thin steel; the Ohka Model combining the powerplant of the Model 11 with the airframe of the Model 22; and the Model 53 which, powered by a Ne-20 turbojet, was to be towed aloft by another aircraft and released over the target. The Mitsubishi G4M2 Navy Type 1 Attack Bomber Model 11, Betty, was to acquire fame as the carrier for the MXY7 Navy Suicide Attacker -- Ohka. A substantial number of G4M2a Model 24B and 24C aircraft had their bomb-bay doors removed and were fitted with special shackles to carry the Ohka piloted missile. This modification was redesignated G4M2e Model 24J. This aircraft was very heavy and had poor handling characteristics when carrying the Ohka and proved an easy target for Allied fighter aircraft. An offifial announcement by Combined Fleet Headquarters said that 2,409 kamikaze pilots were killed in performance of their duty duing World War Two. Carl Wernke TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 00:31:16 CST Reply-To: salvin@heartland.bradley.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Steve Alvin Subject: 6 Armies in Normandy 2i@K Vi@J+%. ,%yOf$SQVc -- Steve Alvin salvin@heartland.bradley.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 01:32:40 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sly Subject: U.S. Lt. killing... >Sly, > A lot of people who were convicted of war crimes by the Allies after the >war, were "simply doing their job." Just because someone is doing their job >does not mean that they are relieved of all guilt. If the case did go to >court eventaully, what other witnesses would there have been besides the angry >POW's? The lt. could not have known what the post war system of war criminal >prosecution could have been like and did the best he could to rectify the >situation. > Ryan Yes, I realize that a lot of people that were convicted thought their jobs consisted of murdering innocent people. What I am wondering (if this doesn't stray to close to the invisible line of starting a Holocaust argument) now is what positions in a concentration camp would exist (if any) where a guard or worker would either not know of the killings and/or not take any part in them. I really don't want to start another argument though, so if the question is deemed to difficult then just don't answer it (this for everyone, I don't know if this is considered to go too far). I understand the horrors of the Nazi's, and especially of the Totenkopfverbande SS guards (I believe this designation is correct). I am not trying to downplay it in any way. By the way, thanks for posting calmly. I appreciate it. "What is called the spirit of the void is where there is nothing. It is not included in man's knowledge. Of course the void is nothingness. By knowing things that exist, you can know that which does not exist. That is the void." -Shinmen Musashi *Sly (mtlindem@midway.uchicago.edu)* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 01:55:37 CST Reply-To: salvin@heartland.bradley.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Steve Alvin Subject: Re: 6 Armies in Normandy No, I was not cursing John Keegan :-). There was a lot of noise on the line tonight. I thought I had cancelled this gibberish--must have pressed send by mistake. Sorry -- Steve Alvin salvin@heartland.bradley.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 19:51:00 LCL Reply-To: Jeff Olson Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Jeff Olson Organization: Ky/In PC User's Group - Louisville, KY - 502-423-8654 Subject: Bombing bombers by air la Gudmundur-- GH.Does anyone know anything about if the axis (or the allied) ever .used somekind of air dropped bombs to kill bombers/fighters? According to _Winged Victory_ by Perret, on August 17, 1943 the 1st Bomb Wing was attacked by German twin engine fighters enroute to bombing Schweinfurt. The fighters attacked with rockets and experimented with air-to-air bombing. No mention as to their effectiveness. Jeff --- . 1st 1.11 #1611 . jeff.olson@tfd.coplex.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 21:44:35 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: WWII-L Meeting In-Reply-To: <199402010119.AA27284@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu> from "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET Hey! A meeting I could make! I'm FOR it. Come on down, John (Lundstrom), and we'll play a REAL Russian Front boardgame on the way! Lou Coatney, WIU, Macomb IL 309/836-1447 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 06:32:13 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Collins Steven CPT Subject: Re: Naziism & the Occult >Hi, > > I'm looking for some references on the connection between Naziism, > >Satanism, and maybe even the New Age cult/religion that's come to the surface > >in the last 25 years. Initiation into the SS and the Nazi party involved > >strange ceremonies and rites that bear some resemblance to a New Age religion. > >Marriage and funeral ceremonies among Nazis were conspicuously detached from > >Christianity, and we all know Germany is predominantly Protestant with Catholi c > >minorities. The Nazis claimed to have a blood connection with the Fatherland, > >possibly implying a distorted revival of prechristian Earth-worship. But the > >Nazi philosophy obviously had love for nothing more than militarism and > >violence. I hope I've sparked some interest. -Dylan Fierro Dylan: A new book (published in 1992) entitled: __The Occult Roots of Nazism: Secret Cults and their Influence on Nazi Ideology: The Ariosophists of Austria and Germany, 1890-1935__ by Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke addresses some of the issues of which you are interested. It is, at times, a very engrossing work and shows how the Nazis borrowed some of its ideology from occult societies existing in Germany and Austria at the turn of this century. Goodrick-Clarke also attempts to demonstrate how these same occult societies made certain segments of the German populace more amendable to the Nazi movement. Good luck with your research. CPT Steve Collins USMA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 12:31:44 GMT,BST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Gillies Subject: Re: Naziism & the Occult > A new book (published in 1992) entitled: __The Occult Roots of Nazism: > Secret Cults and their Influence on Nazi Ideology: The Ariosophists of Austria > and Germany, 1890-1935__ by Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke addresses some of the > issues of which you are interested. It is, at times, a very engrossing work > and shows how the Nazis borrowed some of its ideology from occult societies > existing in Germany and Austria at the turn of this century. Goodrick-Clarke > also attempts to demonstrate how these same occult societies made certain > segments of the German populace more amendable to the Nazi movement. > > Good luck with your research. > > CPT Steve Collins > USMA I would second the recommendation of Goodrick-Clarke (although I wouldn't describe it as a "new" book - my copy was published in 1985 by The Aquarian Press, Wellingborough, England - ISBN 0-85030-402-4). I would also recommend (with reservations) Jean-Michel ANGEBERT (1974) The Occult and the Third Reich. If you read German, the best source I have come across is Josef ACKERMANN "Heinrich Himmler als Ideologe" (Goettingen, 1970). Cheers, John John Gillies Department of Psychology Adam Smith Building University of Glasgow Glasgow G12 8RT Tel: (0)41 339 8855 ext.5351 Scotland johng@psy.gla.ac.uk ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 07:41:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: USAAF 2 FEB 44 COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES WEDNESDAY, 2 FEBRUARY 1944 FTP SITES 1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf 2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/ wwii_chronology AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT: A-20, Douglas Havoc A-24, Douglas Dauntless A-36, North American Apache B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress B-24, Consolidated Liberator B-25, North American Mitchell B-26, Martin Marauder F-5, Lockheed Lightning P-38, Lockheed Lightning P-40, Curtiss P-47, Republic Thunderbolt P-51, North American Mustang Spitfire, Vickers Supermarine EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO): Marshall Josef V Stalin agrees to provide 6 bases for US aircraft in the USSR. STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 205: 95 of 110 B-24's hit V-weapon construction sites at St Pol/Siracourt and Watten, France; 2 B-24's are lost, 1 is damaged beyond repair and 2 damaged; casualties are 10 KIA and 19 MIA. 183 P-47's escort the B-24's without loss. 364th Fighter Squadron, 357th Fighter Group, transfers from Raydon to Leiston, England with P-51's; first mission is 11 Feb. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 36 B-26's attack Triqueville Airfield, France. Eighth Air Force escorts are 34 P-38's and 44 P-47's. No losses. Transfers in England: 365th Fighter Squadron, 358th Fighter Group from Leiston to Raydon with P-47's; 381st Fighter Squadron, 363d Fighter Group, from Keevil to Rivenhall with P-51's, first mission is 24 Feb; 668th Bombardment Squadron (Light), 416th Bombardment Group (Light), from the US to Wethersfield with A-20's, first mission is 3 Mar. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): B-24's, with Spitfire escort, bomb the radar station at Durazzo, Albania. 32d, 352d, 353d and 419th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), 301st Bombardment Group (Heavy), transfer from Cerignola to Lucera, Italy with B-17's. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): Major General Gordon P Saville becomes Commanding General, XII Air Support Command. In Italy, B-25's attack the Marino road junction and A-20's bomb Norma; A-36's and P-40's bomb villages, road junctions, trucks, trains, parked aircraft, supply dump, and the Viterbo road during several fighter-bomber missions; P-40's on patrol over the battle areas attack Cisterna di Latina and Formia. 23d Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, 5th Photographic Reconnaissance Group, transfers from San Servero, Italy to Alghero, Sardinia with F-5's. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): AAF aircraft from bases in the Gilbert Islands attack the Marshall Islands, i.e., A-24's and P-40's from Makin Island bomb runways and gun positions on Mille Atoll and along with P-39 escort strafe NE tip of the island; B-24's from Tarawa Atoll bomb Rongelap Island. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): 31st Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 5th Bombardment Group (Heavy), based on Guadalcanal Island, begins operating from Munda, New Georgia Island with B-24's. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, B-24's bomb Sorong and Alexishafen; nearly 50 A-20's pound installations in the Madang area. B-25's hit coastal targets on New Britain Island from Cape Gauffre to Rein Bay. Other B-25's attack shipping off Tingwon Island in the Bismarck Archipelago and off the SE coast of New Britain Island. SOURCES: AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1 COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF 1982 THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973 THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2 Jack McKillop USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service) 1955-59 ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jack McKillop | Those who have long enjoyed such | | Bellcore | privileges as we enjoy forget in | | Piscataway, NJ USA | time that men have died to win | | jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com | them. FDR | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 08:33:39 +22311624 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Monte Turner Subject: Reading List I am putting together a short reading list concerning the level of military technology existing in the major powers at the outset of World War II. I would very much appreciate any and all suggestions. Thanks Ahead of Time, Monte Turner ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 10:19:24 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Peter Smith Subject: Re: Naziism & the Occult Try James Webb's _The Occult Establishment_ (LaSalle, IL, Open Court Pub. Co.: 1976). It gives good background on the roots of Victorian mysicism and its later embodyments. -- Peter Smith -- Data General Corp., Westboro, MA psmith@dg-webo.webo.dg.com (preferred) or Peter_Smith@dgc.ceo.dg.com #include ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 09:46:57 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Royal Winnipeg Rifles info. In-Reply-To: <199402020947.AA06623@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu> from "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET Tim, I would check with your friend to make sure he approves of your sharing the information with us. You don't want to lose a friend, and want to be careful that Canadians understand we are not out to "get" (just) them. Remember that there are possible legal/moral/emotional ramifications to this. They are not as easy to overlook when you discuss a more recent war, like Indochina, but for the (now aged) veterans of WWII, they are just as real and personal. Nonetheless, I look forward to the information (as much as everyone else) if it is forthcoming. Thank you for your initiative and conscientiousness on this. Lou Coatney, Western Illinois University, Macomb ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 13:28:56 -0400 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Horner Organization: from SUNY College at Buffalo, NY 14222 Subject: Foo Fighters LTC Con and all, Thanks for the post about the "Foo Fighters." It seemd that the term was used rather liberally to describe any unidentified flying object (a real UFO, by definition) just like bogie was/is used to describe an aircraft of unknown nationality. There is some rather interesting info concerning the Foo Fighters over Europe as the following AP story will show: SILVER BALLS FLOATING IN AIR NAZI'S NEWEST WAR DEVICE Paris, Dec. 13-As the Allied armies ground out new gains on the western front today, the Germans were disclosed to have thrown a new "device" into the war - mysterious silvery balls which float in the air. Pilots report seeing these objects, both individ- ually and in clusters, during forays over the Reich. (The purpose of the floaters was not immediate- ly evident. It is possible that they represent a new anti-aircraft defense instrument or weapon.) (This dispatch was heavily censored at supreme headquarters.) This is obviously 1944. A good combat report that deals with the Foo fighters was filed by Captain Alvah M Reida of the 486th Bomb Group which was stationed in India. The date in August 10, 1944. I was on a mission from Ceylon, bombing Palembang, Sumatra...shortly before midnight. There were 50 planes in my strike....[and] our altitude was 14000 feet with an indicated airspeed 210 mph. While in the area we were exposed to sporadic flak fire, but immediately after leaving the area it ceased. At about 20 or 30 minutes later the right gunner and copilot reported a strange object pacing us about 500 yards off out starboard wing. At that distance it appeared as a spherical object, probably about 5 or 6 feet in diameter, of a very bright and intense red or orange in color....My gunner reported it coming from about 5 o'clock position at our level. It seemed to throb or vibrate constantly. Assuming it was some kind of radio controlled object sent to pace us, I went into evasive action, changing direction constantly as much as 90 degrees and altitude at about 2000 feet. It followed our every maneuver for about 8 minutes, always holding a position 500 yards out and about 2 o'clock position in relation to the plane. When it left, it made an abrupt 90 degree turn, and accelerated radidly, disappearing in the overcast...during the strike evaluation and interrogation following the mission, I made a detailed report to Intelligence thinking it was some new type of radio-controlled missile or weapon. (quoted from "Mysteries of the Skies" by Gordon Lore and Harold Deneault, Robert Hale, London 1969, p. 127) I also should mention that the aircraft was a B-29. In "Above Top Secret," by Timothy Good (William Morrow, New York, 1988), it is claimed that the problem with the Foo Fighters was such that the British set up an organiz- ation led by Lietutenant General Massey in 1943 to study them. At the same time, the Germans, under Professor Georg Kamper, set up Sonder Buro No. 13 (Operation Uranus) to study the same thing. The Massey Project came to the conclusion that the Foo Fighters were not german and the 8th Air Force officially concluded that the sightings were a result of St. Elmo's Fire, ball lightning and combat fatigue. I am hardly a "UFO-buff" but I do believe that the Foo Fighters are a genuine mystery that calls for serious research. UFOs are just that, Unidentified Flying Objects and should not nessecarity be labeled "flying saucers" nor should they be immediately dismissed as nonsense. Any reactions or more info? This subject has intrigued me for some time and I was happy to see a posting about it. Greetings to all from cold Upstate New York, John Horner Area Coordinator SUNY College of Tech at Delhi ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 14:11:20 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: GERMAN 101/102 LAB Subject: Re: Foo Fighters In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of WED 02 FEB 1994 04:28:56 EST Sounds interesting. Wonder if anyone knows of any German language reports from WW II which mentions this phenomenon? Dale Lally dlally@stlawu.bitnet ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 13:12:19 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A." Subject: Re: Royal Winnipeg Rifles info. In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of TUE 01 FEB 1994 21:46:57 CST Lou, don;t worry about me losing my friend--he has been a friend for over 10 years--we went to high school, college, the same officer basic course, and he got me into reenacting. I will see what he can provide as for details. He has contacts with the real RWR's vet's group. I will check with hotels in the St. Louis area, and put some information together about the Jeff Barracks event. I should have it together by next week. So far, I've seen Sid Kitchell, George Brauer, and Lou Coatney show interest. Anyone else? 11th Panzer can host the get together. By hosting, we would be glad to show you around our campsite, and provide assistance at the event. Generally present at the event--1 Staurt Tank, 1 or 2 U.S.half-tracks, a twin cannon US Bofors AAA piece (forget the size), a DUKW, a Dodge 3/4 ton, the 11th Panzer reporduction 247c Armored Car (made from a 1953 willy's pick-up), a Kubel, maybe some motorcycles, and other various vehicles from the Armed Forces Museum at the Melvin Price Support Center, Granite City, IL. I'll even let you guys touch my MP-40! I'll send more info as I get it---TAS ************************************************************************ * Tim A. Scherrer "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of * * Facilities Supervisor your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971 * * WP:816-785-5253 * * HP:816-665-6704 * * ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU * ************************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 15:25:43 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Warren Thompson Subject: Foo Fighters Does anyone known the source of the name? Why "foo" fighters? During the 1930s/40s there was a popular comic strip called Smokey Stover in which there were "fire" fighters known as "foo fighters." Is this the connection ... or is my aged memory failing even faster these days? -- Warren Thompson ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 20:59:55 GMT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Gudmundur Helgason Subject: Re: Foo Fighters In-Reply-To: <9402021928.AA03626@rvik.ismennt.is>; from "John Horner" at Feb 2, 94 1:28 pm Amazing subject these "foo fighters", now I have two questions: 1. Were there any reported casualities/damages due to these foo's? (Perhaps there was a "foo" ace :) ) 2. Did these incidents occur in WWI, Korea or Vietnam? Greeting from warmy Iceland :) Gudmundur J. Helgason E-mail to: gummihe@ismennt.is ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 15:44:41 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Warren Thompson Subject: Foo Fighters Question: Were Foo Fighters reported during the Korean War and/or over Vietnam? Are there still reports involving military aircraft (as distinct from "ordinary" UFO sightings)? -- Warren Thompson ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 16:06:00 CDT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Roger Safian Subject: Re: Royal Winnipeg Rifles info. Tim, Add me to the list for the get together...Is there any chance we could watch "kelly's Heros" while we're there? Roger P.S. Big :-) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 21:53:11 CST Reply-To: salvin@heartland.bradley.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Steve Alvin Subject: [MAILER-DAEMON@bradley.bradley.edu: Returned mail: Host unknown] ================= Begin forwarded message ================= From: MAILER-DAEMON@bradley.bradley.edu (Mail Delivery Subsystem) To: salvin@heartland.bradley.edu Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 02:10:50 -0600 ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 550 buvm.cc.buffalo.edu (TCP)... 550 Host unknown 554 ... 550 Host unknown (Authoritative answer from name server) ----- Unsent message follows ----- Received: from heartland.bradley.edu by bradley.bradley.edu with SMTP id AA00362 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.3 for wwii-l@buvm.cc.buffalo.edu); Wed, 2 Feb 1994 00:57:29 -0600 Received: by heartland.bradley.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA23369; Wed, 2 Feb 94 00:57:32 CST Date: Wed, 2 Feb 94 00:57:32 CST Message-Id: <9402020657.AA23369@heartland.bradley.edu> From: salvin@heartland.bradley.edu (Steve Alvin) To: wwii-l@buvm.cc.buffalo.edu Subject: 6 Armies in Normandy Reply-To: salvin@heartland.bradley.edu Some one (Bob Smart? I mistakenly deleted the original post) asked for opinions about John Keegan's *Six Armies in Normandy* I just re-read the book a couple of months ago. IMHO it was a disappointing sequel to his classic *Face of Battle*, but then again that was a tough thing to do. But, I still found the book useful and at times interesting. He shows the importance of Allied code breaking in the campaign. His chapter on the Polish Armored Division, was quite good. I also though his essay on the decision to launch the second front was a good summary. Like in *FOB*, Keegan is at his best in *6AN* when he is discussing what it was like to be in combat in Normandy. If the book is cheap, I'd recommend buying it. (if it is real cheap, buy 2 & I'll buy the extra copy from you :-)) -- Steve Alvin salvin@heartland.bradley.edu This was what I meant to send about 6 Armies. Of course I sent it to the wrong address. :-) -- Steve Alvin salvin@heartland.bradley.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 22:43:29 +0000 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Behrens Subject: Dive Bombers In-Reply-To: <199402011415.GAA17256@netcomsv.netcom.com> On Tue, 1 Feb 1994, Bill Vasilion wrote: > I found in one book that he was on Iwo JIma living in foxholes for > two weeks while the Marines were fighting for the island. He said that > the Navy Dauntless Bombers were hitting the island with bombs... > ............. This is minor to your fathers memory, but are you sure they were Dauntless Dive Bombers? Iwo Jima was in March of 1945 I believe. By that time I thought the Navy Dauntlesses were replaced by Curtiss Helldivers. That change may not have been totally complete, but I think by March of '45 there were very few Dauntlesses in frontline service. Just an observation. John ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 09:22:11 GMT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Johannes van Vuren Subject: American bouncing bomb Yesterday in the London Times there was an article about the British bouncing bomb dropped on German dams during ww2. It then went on to mention that the Americans were busy developing their own bouncing bomb at that time. Im wondering how far they got with this development and whether it was ever used on a dam. Johannes van Vuren, Canterbury, England. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 13:26:00 CET Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Peter de Lange Subject: Re: B.Vasilon - USAAF units / F-47 Steve was wondering if the F-47 was still in service in 1952, so was I, but in his excellent series about USAAF fighters Joe Baugher wrote : >P-47D and N Thunderbolts remained in service with the USAF for several >years after the war, serving with SAC, TAC, and ADC squadrons. >Eventually they reached Air National Guard squadrons, from which, >after being redesignated F-47D and F-47N in 1948, they were finally >phased out of service in 1955. > >Joe Baugher AT&T Bell Laboratories 2000 North Naperville Road > Naperville, Illinois 60566-7033. (708) 713-4548 Peter de Lange ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 14:27:36 +0100 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Emmanuel Gustin Subject: FOO, was: Re: Foo Fighters > Does anyone known the source of the name? Why "foo" fighters? During > the 1930s/40s there was a popular comic strip called Smokey Stover > in which there were "fire" fighters known as "foo fighters." Is > this the connection ... or is my aged memory failing even faster these days? Longish extract from the 'jargon file', also published as 'The Hacker's dictionary': :foo: /foo/ 1. interj. Term of disgust. 2. Used very generally as a sample name for absolutely anything, esp. programs and files (esp. scratch files). 3. First on the standard list of {metasyntactic variable}s used in syntax examples. See also {bar}, {baz}, {qux}, {quux}, {corge}, {grault}, {garply}, {waldo}, {fred}, {plugh}, {xyzzy}, {thud}. The etymology of hackish `foo' is obscure. When used in connection with `bar' it is generally traced to the WWII-era Army slang acronym FUBAR (`Fucked Up Beyond All Recognition'), later bowdlerized to {foobar}. (See also {FUBAR}). However, the use of the word `foo' itself has more complicated antecedents, including a long history in comic strips and cartoons. The old "Smokey Stover" comic strips by Bill Holman often included the word `FOO', in particular on license plates of cars; allegedly, `FOO' and `BAR' also occurred in Walt Kelly's "Pogo" strips. In the 1938 cartoon "Daffy Doc", a very early version of Daffy Duck holds up a sign saying "SILENCE IS FOO!"; oddly, this seems to refer to some approving or positive affirmative use of foo. It has been suggested that this might be related to the Chinese word `fu' (sometimes transliterated `foo'), which can mean "happiness" when spoken with the proper tone (the lion-dog guardians flanking the steps of many Chinese restaurants are properly called "fu dogs"). It is even possible that hacker usage actually springs from `FOO, Lampoons and Parody', the title of a comic book first issued in September 1958; the byline read `C. Crumb' but the style of the art suggests this may well have been a sort-of pseudonym for noted weird-comix artist Robert Crumb. The title FOO was featured in large letters on the front cover. What the word meant to Mr. Crumb is anybody's guess. An old-time member reports that in the 1959 `Dictionary of the TMRC Language', compiled at {TMRC} there was an entry that went something like this: FOO: The first syllable of the sacred chant phrase "FOO MANE PADME HUM." Our first obligation is to keep the foo counters turning. For more about the legendary foo counters, see {TMRC}. Almost the entire staff of what became the MIT AI LAB was involved with TMRC, and probably picked the word up there. Very probably, hackish `foo' had no single origin and derives through all these channels from Yiddish `feh' and/or English `fooey'. Emmanuel Gustin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 09:41:12 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Crane Conrad LTC Subject: Re: American bouncing bomb >Yesterday in the London Times there was an article about the British bouncing >bomb dropped on German dams during ww2. It then went on to mention that the >Americans were busy developing their own bouncing bomb at that time. > >Im wondering how far they got with this development and whether it was ever >used on a dam. > >Johannes van Vuren, >Canterbury, England. Johannes, The American 5th and 14th Air Forces in the Pacific began using a technique called "skip-bombing" in 1943. Medium bombers would sling their bombs at ships just like we skip stones across a pond. It was a very successful method of attacking Japanese shipping. LTC Con Crane USMA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 09:47:14 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Joe Barone Subject: St. Louis get-together From: Roger Safian : > Add me to the list for the get together...Is there any chance we > could watch "kelly's Heros" while we're there? If "Kelly's Heroes" is part of the itinerary, then I'll have to come! My copy is kinda beat, though, (I can't imagine why!) so someone else would have to bring theirs! -- Joe Barone m1b@ssd.ray.com Mulligan!? On time and on target!? Cripes! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 11:12:37 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: David Rising Subject: Re: Reading List In-Reply-To: A good overview of military technology is "Of Arms and Men : A history of War, Weapons, and Aggression" by Robert L. O'Connell. David Rising ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 13:53:37 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Sloan Subject: Re: St. Louis get-together The great idea for a meeting at St. Louis prompts me to mention that the Society of Military History annual meeting will be in Washington DC in April and that the U.S. Army's conference for military historians will be there in June. Both would also be good opportunities for list members to get together. I plan to attend both and use the opportunities to propagandize the attendees about the wonders of INTERNET (for those not already on line). Hope to meet as many net members as possible. John Sloan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 14:19:06 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Sloan Subject: Nazi and Occult Dylan Fierro has asked for references to any connections between Nazi and Occult groups or practices. There are some references to this in Michael Brown _The Final Hour_. He remarks that HItler was heavily influenced by New Templars, Theosophists, Rosicrucians and a cult called the Thule society whose leader was Guido von List, a user of the swastika symbol. This symbol he says dates to the Bronze age and is an occult symbol associated with the goddess Kali. He quotes one of Hitler's favorite poems on Wotan and dark powers. He goes no futher to note that Hitler was advised by Erik Jan Hanussen, a seer and astrologer. He says Hitler himself described himself as a occultist. Then there is discussion of the "spear of Longinus" . Further on he says that Hess and Himmler were members of the Thule Society. Hope this helps. John Sloan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 11:24:00 PST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Carey Stephens Subject: BOOKS: _Six Armies in Normandy_ I always get a kick out of Keegan's introduction to the book, wherein he describes his own childhood fantasies about Britain, the Empire, Hitler, and the reality of US dominated geo-politics. I generally read portions to my class, and they invariably get the biggest kick out of Keegan's rather perceptive insights into the American character. You can sense that he wrote the book, in part at least, conscious of an American readership. The "American occupation" of Britain through the eyes of an eight year-old entrance, and Keegan successfully translates that experience into his growing realization about the role of the US v. Britain in the war. Good stuff.... Steve Fox (foxs@axe.humboldt.edu) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 15:33:58 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Ryan Subject: Fatherland I recently read the novel _Fatherland_ by Robert Harris. I was just curious as to what others thought of the novel and how it depicted 1964 Nazi Germany. I thought that Harris definitely did his homework on the Wannsee Conference and this part seemed real. Although, I was unsure as to exactly why the truth leaking out about the Holocaust would have destroyed that society. Ryan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 15:05:13 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A." Subject: Re: St. Louis get-together In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of WED 02 FEB 1994 22:47:14 CST I have a pretty good copy of "Kelly's Heroes" so I can bring it, although I don;t have a TV and VCR I can bring with me. Besides, I won;t have room considering my car is usually full anyway on these trips. I could also bring my cat Felix. I've told Joe this story, and now I'll tell to everyone else---Kelly's Heroes was on one Saturday TV one Saturday and my 3 month old kitten was walking by the TV, when he stopped and started staring at the TV. He was so interested in "Kelly's Heroes", he just sat there and watched it for about an hour. Getting a 3 month old kitten to do anything for an hour is amazing in itself. I didn;t think too much of it, until it was on again a couple of days later (and I was watching it--imagine that!!!) when he went walking by the TV and sat down and started watching it again. He watched it for about a half hour, when a commercial came on. He walked away during the commercial, and came back about 5 minutes later and watched another 20 minutes before leaving the room. I knew at that moment that cat and I had more than just a residence in common. I guess he likes tiger tanks (he's a red tabby--looks just like Morris the Cat) I've got the movie if you've got the VCR. ************************************************************************ * Tim A. Scherrer "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of * * Facilities Supervisor your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971 * * WP:816-785-5253 * * HP:816-665-6704 * * ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU * ************************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 19:03:23 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: St. Louis get-together In-Reply-To: <199402031916.AA03669@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu> from "Joe Barone" at Feb 3, How about inviting MILHST-L and CONSIM-L? Ft. Leavenworth (and its historians and wargamers) is just across MO. Lou Coatney, WIU ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 22:09:48 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Bob Smart Subject: Army Green Book Series question I made a trip to the GPO outlet in Laurel today and picked up some more Green Books. Organization Of Army Ground Forces was available again ( It was out of stock when I was there a few months ago). I figured it would have a lot of 'structure' information in it and picked it up. It has a whole section in it devoyed to a table entitled "Ground Forces in the Army" which purports to be a statistical study of ground forces organization. There are ~25 pages of notes and explination of this table. The problem is THE TABLE ISN'T THERE!!! There is an oblique page number reference which points to the beginning of the section. My question is has anyone else run across this and found an answer? Is the table a seperate document? Is it available from some other source? Should I have gotten it and didn't ( the GPO folks seemed lost on this and the one guy who has been of some help in the past wasn't there today) The book was originally compiled in 1947. this one has a 1987 date on the title page. Could the table have been dropped somehow when it was reprinted? As an aside The June 25,1993 Military History Subject Bibliography is still the most current. Breakout and Pursuit & The Last Offensive were both out of stock. B&P was listed as 'Not Available' TLO as 'Exhausted' I'm not sure what the difference is. If I get a chance I'll call them and see if they know :-) The funny thing is B&P was out of stock several months ago but was listed in a new glossy catlogue they had there today. I was hoping that It was back in stock for the 50th Anniversry. Bob Smart (bsmart@smart.com) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 23:12:54 CST Reply-To: salvin@heartland.bradley.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Steve Alvin Subject: Re: Dive Bombers Yes, by 1945 most SBD's had been replaced by Helldivers, but there were some Marine Squadrons who continued to fly them through out the war. I can't give specifics, but I have read this (and seen pictures) in the histories of specific Marine Squadrons that are usually available at a decent Government Depsoitory Library. Heck, even the library at Dickinson State University had some. :-) So it is possible (I'm not saying it is a fact, however) that SBD's could have seen action at Iwo Jima. -- Steve Alvin salvin@heartland.bradley.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 07:58:22 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A." Subject: Re[2]: St. Louis get-together In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of 07:50458:2 19 24:00:00 CST I have no problems with inviting people from other lists. I am not on the other lists, so if anyone else is on them, have at it. TAS ************************************************************************ * Tim A. Scherrer "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of * * Facilities Supervisor your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971 * * WP:816-785-5253 * * HP:816-665-6704 * * ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU * ************************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 09:46:08 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Joe Barone Subject: NEWS: F6F-5 Hellcat recovered, Part 1 This is from the Providence Sunday Journal from January. It was written by Gerald M. Carbone, a staff writer and is reproduced without permission. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- In a recovery operation that featured suspense, mystery and a surprise twist, a rare World War II airplane that crashed into Nantucket Sound nearly 50 years ago was raised from the sea floor yesterday. Salvagers working for the Quonset Air Museum at Quonset Point, North Kingstown, RI, began the recovery thinking they had found a Grumman Hellcat that ditched into the sea on Aug. 15, 1944, causing no harm to the pilot -- but they soon discovered their assumption was wrong. Larry Webster of Charlestown, RI, an engineer who specializes in identifying vintage aircraft wrecks, shocked the salvage team yesterday morning when he declared: "I'm gonna tell you right now, I don't believe this is the airplane we thought it was." Divers recovered a chunk of the plane's tail on Friday, and Webster scraped through layers of coral, seaweed and silt that had cloaked the plane for years before he uncovered the serial numbers 5612 and 5597. "That's not consistent with what we believed," he said. The story that unfolded on the state pier yesterday actually began in June, when the Air National Guard was scouting Martha's Vineyard in preparation for President Clinton's vacation visit. A pilot saw the outline of a plane on the sea floor 10 miles east of Oak Bluffs, and he radioed for a diver to probe the wreck. Robert Nevin, who owns Fathom Divers in Edgartown, plunged into the sea and discovered the old Hellcat in 20 feet of water. The plane was resting on its cockpit in the shoals of Nantucket Sound, where currents routinely whip up "sandstorms" along the shallow bottom. A long conga eel lived in one of the wings, and the plane was studded with coral, barnacles, green anenomes and red seaweed. Nevin contacted Webster, who checked his records and concluded that this Hellcat probably hit the sea on Aug. 15, 1944; but he cautioned that he couldn't be sure until divers brought him a serial number. But the journey to snare a serial number turned out to be as perilous as Dorothy's quest for the Wicked Witch's broomstick. Nevin teamed with Rick Fryburg of Subsalve USA, a Providence firm that builds inflatable bags to lift wrecks from the ocean floor, and together they made several attempts to raise the plane. They battled shifting sands, vicious currents and the conga eel. But on Friday, a combination of good weather and slack seas allowed the divers to slip airbags around the plane. When Fryburg inflated them, the plane left the sea floor for the first time in nearly half a century. One wing, the tail and the engine dropped off, but the cockpit and fuselage were intact. Vineyard Haven skipper Dale McClure then gingerly towed the wreck to the state pier in Oak Bluffs. McClure hitched the 9,000-pound Hellcat to the pilings Friday night, and yesterday he planned to haul it onto the pier with his big red crane. "The plan is to drop it on its back and see how to goes," Fryburg said at noon yesterday, as he prepared to jump in the water to hook the Hellcat to the crane. "After that tow yesterday, we don't know what kind of condition it's in. The wing's going to come off, though. You know it's going to come off." Damon Ise, president of the Quonset Air Museum, paced the pier like an expectant father as he waited for McClure to haul the plane up. "This is a life's dream," Ise said. "You don't see this happen too often. Now if we can just start finding the stuff in Narragansett Bay, we'll be all set." When Fryburg gave the signal, McClure fired up the crane; the crane's boom bent low like a fishing rod; cable squealed under the Hellcat's weight. With the serial numbers intact, Webster now knew which plane it was: the Hellcat F6F-5 piloted by Ensign Vincent A. Frankwitz on April 3, 1945. Frankwitz was flying with a squadron out of the Charlestown Naval Auxiliary Air Facility when he radioed that his engine had lost oil pressure, and he was going into the drink. Other pilots saw the plane hit Nantucket Sound with a splash; they saw Frankwitz step onto the wing; and then he disappeared. His body never was found, and his name is one of 59 inscribed on a monument honoring pilots who died at Charlestown between 1943 and the air station's closing, this year. As the cables groaned, Webster had a nightmarish vision of Frankwitz's bones being tangled up in the wreck and falling onto the pier. "Pick it right up. Pick it right up," Fryburg yelled from the water. "The wing came off." An overpowering smell of sulfur wafted over the pier when the plane broke the surface. The Hellcat rained mud, fish and crabs as it swung over the pier -- but there was no sign of Ensign Frankwitz. "It's a little worse than I expected," Webster said as he inspected the Hellcat's frame. "But you look down there and you see some good stuff," such as the .50-caliber machine guns on the wing stubs, the plexiglass windows and the joystick in the cockpit. "That's a good shell there." Volunteers from the Quonset Air Museum will begin dismantling the frame today; they'll strap the plane to a flatbed truck sometime next week and take it to Quonset, where the plane will spend the rest of the month in a giant steam tent to leach salt and kill growth. Workers will remove the growth with a chemical solvent that will bare the plane's steel skin for display at the museum. "This plane has historical value because it's an untouched original," Webster said. "You can look at this and say, this is the way it really was. This is the real stuff -- the real colors, the real equipment. What it does is it brings back Vincent Frankwitz to memory. He was a forgotten individual; now he's remembered again. His loss of life is not forgotten." -- Joe Barone m1b@ssd.ray.com Crap Game: Zowie-bozza! Have yourself a drink! How many more of these are there? Kelly: 14,000... Crap Game: 14,000 gold bars! Where are they? Kelly: In a bank... Crap Game: In a bank?! Aren't you getting a little ambitious? Kelly: ...behind enemy lines. Crap Game: Behind enemy lines... This could be the perfect crime! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 22:06:37 +0700 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Peter E. Beal" Subject: Re: Society of Military History In-Reply-To: <9402032322.AA37826@nwg.nectec.or.th> On Thu, 3 Feb 1994, John Sloan wrote: > The great idea for a meeting at St. Louis prompts me to mention that the > Society of Military History annual meeting will be in Washington DC in April Does anybody have the exact dates for this meeting and an address for the society. Thanks in advance. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 09:10:41 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Jon Stevens Subject: Re: Nazism & the Occult Dylan, Have you heard of the book _Spear of Destiny_ by Trevor Ravenscroft? This book thoroughly examines the connection of Nazism and the Occult\New Age\Anti-Christain. The author is British and a veteran of WWII. A friend read this and says it is the ultimate book on this subject. It explores the religious and philosophical roots of Nazism including things like the spear of Longinus, theosophy, and all that other scary stuff. It was published in 1973 but I saw it a couple months ago in the University of Illinois at Chicago bookstore so it would seem to be available. I would describe it more but don't have the book handy. Anyhow it is a must read on this subject. Jon Stevens -- E-mail jstevens@david.wheaton.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 09:28:27 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Joshua Norton Subject: Re: Foo Fighters This topic reminded me of this book that I bought five or six years ago from the Military Book Club. It was called *German Jet Genesis*. I don't remember the author, and the book is packed away in a box about two hundred miles away from my present location. Anyway there was one small section in the book about a German "flying saucer" program. According to the author, the Germans were making plans to make one. It sounds rather farfetched, but has anyone else ever ran into information on a project of this sort? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 11:40:00 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: B-29s vs. Baka bombs: Akira? In-Reply-To: <199401312137.AA13039@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu> from "Crane Conrad LTC" at J Fascinating. Here we have John Lundstrom (published/foremost? authority on (naval) air operations in the Pacific) and Con Crane (newly published authority on American bombing policy/ history) squaring off over whether the Japanese did or did not use Baka bombs against B-29s over Japan. I feel like a PT Boat in Ironbottom Sound scuttling out of the way of Willis Augustus "Ching" Lee and his battlewagons, as they prepare to decide the possession of Gualdalcanal with the Tokyo Express. (When controversy arises about the Russian Front, maybe it will be my turn to be a battlewagon.) Although "Ching" Crane seems to have some credible sources, trying to hit a B-29 with a high-speed/low-maneuverability(?) Baka would seem prohibitively/obviously futile. Akira, do YOU have the decisive sources to resolve this? I don't suppose there is a Baka pilots reunion group extant. :-) Lou Coatney, WIU ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 12:58:09 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Crane Conrad LTC Subject: Re: Army Green Book Series question Bob, I have a suggestion for you. Rather than get BREAKOUT AND PURSUIT, buy Martin Blumenson's new version THE BATTLE OF THE GENERALS. It just came out. He told me that this version would be more critical of Allied leadership, and it surely is. It is published by William Morrow. It does not have the tactical detail of the Green Book, but I still highly recommend it. LTC Con Crane USMA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 14:16:15 GMT-6 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Terry Moore Organization: Amarillo College PCAD-ML Subject: Re: NEWS: F6F-5 Hellcat recovered, Part 1 Joe, Thank you very much for sharing that story of Ensign Frankewitz. A sad story, to be sure, but a happy ending in some ways. Terry Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077 fax 806-371-5370 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 15:31:22 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Joe Barone Subject: NEWS: F6F-5 Hellcat recovered, Part 2 This is from the January 19 issue of the Newport Daily News. It was written by Carolyn Thompson of the AP and is reproduced without permission. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- A vintage Navy fighter plane faces an uncertain future in the hands of the U.S. government, now that the Quonset Air Museum has given up its fight to keep it. When the museum pulled the F6F-5 Hellcat from the waters off Martha's Vineyard last month, nearly 50 years after it went down, officials of the museum saw the crowning jewel of their developing displays. But amid Navy threats to prosecute them for stealing government property, museum officials say they will ship the aircraft to the National Museum of Naval Aviation in Pensacola, Fla., in the next several weeks. While conceding that the museum broke the law when it plucked the plane from the shallow ocean floor without first notifying the Navy, museum president Damon Ise maintains that it was a rescue mission. Unauthorized divers had already began to pillage the wreckage and shifting currents had begun to expose the craft, he said. The Navy appreciates the 1,200 hours and $3,500 the museum has devoted to restoring the plane, according to Capt. William Vance, deputy director of the Naval History Center in Washington, who acknowledges that the Navy has several other planes like it in its possession. But allowing the museum to keep this Hellcat, even when the Navy has no immediate plans for it and lacks a budget to restore it, would set a dangerous precedent, he said. "I hate to use a cliche but it was the principle of the thing," Vance said. "They went out and grabbed a piece of government property, essentially. ... If they're allowed to retain the aircraft ... we'd have the same problem (with some other craft or shipwreck) later this year." Ise said he agreed to return the aircraft to the Navy during a meeting with Navy officials in Washington on Friday. "We just mistakenly did not notify them ahead of time," he said. "There was never any attempt to deprive the Navy of ownership. We were worried about the ultimate safety of the airplane." Even so, he said, the Navy was unwilling to let the museum go ahead with the restoration, despite an offer to display it with a plaque saying it was property of the Navy. Ise said he believed the aircraft would be allowed to "dissolve into a pile of dust" once it was returned to the Navy because "they need another Hellcat in Pensacola like they need a hole in the head. "I doubt the preservation effort will continue," he said. The Pensacola museum already has two retored Hellcats. -- Joe Barone m1b@ssd.ray.com Crap Game: And who are those bunch of refugees over there? Odd Ball: Hey, it's the band! Crap Game: The band? What do we need a band for? Odd Ball: Have a little faith, Crap Game, they're beautiful people! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 16:48:53 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Ron Babuka Subject: Re: NEWS: F6F-5 Hellcat recovered, Part 2 In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 4 Feb 1994 15:31:22 -0500 from >> devoted to restoring the plane, according to Capt. William Vance, deputy >> director of the Naval History Center in Washington, who acknowledges that >> the Navy has several other planes like it in its possession. Perhaps some well written letters directed to the proper authorities can help correct this situation. National Warplane Museum Ron Babuka Geneseo, New York Cornell University ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 13:59:48 -0800 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Julian E Gomez Subject: Re: Fatherland >I recently read the novel _Fatherland_ by Robert Harris. I was just curious >as to what others thought of the novel and how it depicted 1964 Nazi Germany. >I thought that Harris definitely did his homework on the Wannsee Conference >and this part seemed real. Although, I was unsure as to exactly why the truth >leaking out about the Holocaust would have destroyed that society. > > Ryan I suggest that any more discussion of this be carried out in private, or at least formatted so that people who don't want the book "spoiled" can easily skip the message. "I was a precocious child and obviously destined to be a scientist." Dr. Julian "a tribble took it" Gomez Apple Computer, Inc. 408/862-1289 or 996-1010 jeg@apple.com julian.g@applelink.apple.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 20:10:54 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Sloan Subject: Re: Society of Milit... Re: the annual meeting of Society for Military History Sorry, I guess I should have provided full information in the first place. The meetin will be April 8-10 at the Hyatt Regency HOtel in Bethesda Md. the program chairman is Timothy Nenninger at PO Box 4762, Mc Lean VA 22103. President of the Socity is Roy Flint who lives in GA. But the best address I think is through the Journal of Military History, editor is Henry Bausum and address is George C Marshal Library at Virginia Military INstitute, Lexington VA 24450-1600. They publish an excellent, refered, scholarly quarterly journal and a newsletter. Another organization folks might be interested in is the Unites States commission on Military History whose address is PO Box 4816 Annapolis MD 21403. This is a much smaller group, but the one that represents the US at the annual international colloquies and in various other ways. I should mention also in case some list members don't have the address, there is the World War Two Studies Association of which the chairman is Donald Detwiler and the secretary is Robert Wolfe at the Battle of Normandy Foundation 1730 Rhode Island AVD N.W. Washington DC 20036. They also publish a nice quarterly newsletter that contains a wealth of information about new developments in the study of the war. HOpe this helps JOhn Sloan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Feb 1994 12:49:52 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: David Rising Subject: Re: Fatherland In-Reply-To: The best part of Fatherland was the bet about president Kennedy. Very perceptive. Just my $0.02 worth. David Rising ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Feb 1994 12:52:33 -0500 Reply-To: David Rising Sender: World War II Discussion List From: David Rising Subject: Re: Fatherland In-Reply-To: Oops, that's "bit" about President Kennedy. David Rising ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Feb 1994 13:59:43 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Jonah Triebwasser, Esq." Subject: Re: NEWS: F6F-5 Hellcat recovered, Part 2 In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of FRI 04 FEB 1994 05:31:22 EST > Dear all- What a shame that Navy Brass is worshiping at the alter of form over substance. Anyone on the list have any influence to stop this plane from just rusting away? - Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor, Marist College, Poughkeepsie, NY jzml@maristb.marist.edu > When the museum pulled the F6F-5 Hellcat from the waters off > Martha's Vineyard last month, nearly 50 years after it went down, > officials of the museum saw the crowning jewel of their developing > displays. > > But amid Navy threats to prosecute them for stealing government > property, museum officials say they will ship the aircraft to the > National Museum of Naval Aviation in Pensacola, Fla., in the next > several weeks. > > While conceding that the museum broke the law when it plucked > the plane from the shallow ocean floor without first notifying the Navy, > museum president Damon Ise maintains that it was a rescue mission. > Unauthorized divers had already began to pillage the wreckage and > shifting currents had begun to expose the craft, he said. > > The Navy appreciates the 1,200 hours and $3,500 the museum has > devoted to restoring the plane, according to Capt. William Vance, deputy > director of the Naval History Center in Washington, who acknowledges that > the Navy has several other planes like it in its possession. > > But allowing the museum to keep this Hellcat, even when the > Navy has no immediate plans for it and lacks a budget to restore it, > would set a dangerous precedent, he said. > > "I hate to use a cliche but it was the principle of the thing," > Vance said. "They went out and grabbed a piece of government property, > essentially. ... If they're allowed to retain the aircraft ... we'd > have the same problem (with some other craft or shipwreck) later this > year." > > Ise said he agreed to return the aircraft to the Navy during > a meeting with Navy officials in Washington on Friday. > > "We just mistakenly did not notify them ahead of time," he said. > "There was never any attempt to deprive the Navy of ownership. We > were worried about the ultimate safety of the airplane." > > Even so, he said, the Navy was unwilling to let the museum > go ahead with the restoration, despite an offer to display it with > a plaque saying it was property of the Navy. > > Ise said he believed the aircraft would be allowed to "dissolve > into a pile of dust" once it was returned to the Navy because "they > need another Hellcat in Pensacola like they need a hole in the head. > > "I doubt the preservation effort will continue," he said. > > The Pensacola museum already has two retored Hellcats. > -- > Joe Barone > m1b@ssd.ray.com > Crap Game: And who are those bunch of refugees over there? > Odd Ball: Hey, it's the band! > Crap Game: The band? What do we need a band for? > Odd Ball: Have a little faith, Crap Game, they're beautiful people! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Feb 1994 17:02:15 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Doug McCabe Subject: Historical Research Agency Ohio University Electronic Communication Date: 05-Feb-1994 04:50pm EST To: Remote Addressee ( _MX%"WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU" ) From: Doug McCabe Dept: Library MCCABE Tel No: (614) 593-2715 Subject: Historical Research Agency A special thanks to Bill Huber for suggesting to me that I contact the Air Force Historical Research Agency at Maxwell AFB in Montgomery, AL. This was in reference to my question about the accidental bombing of Nijmegen in Feb 1944 and reports that low-flying bombers were also in on the action. I went to Montgomery last Wednesday and Thursday and looked at all the squadron and group records of the IX Bomber Command. From what I can tell no one in IX AF was near Nijmegen. (Only planes from VIII AF made the unfortunate mistake of bombing the city and killing 900 people.) The only other possibility of proving the 250 eyewitnesses to the low-flyers right is that the planes they saw were British. I doubt I'll be the one lucky enough to go to England to chase down _that_ thread. I must say, the facility at Maxwell is very nice and the people were very helpful, especially Marvin Fisher. The original documents they have there are wonderful and mainly cover WW II, Korea, and Vietnam. I highly recommend the agency if you need to study original documents on air force operations. Doug dmccabe1@ohiou.edu Received: 05-Feb-1994 05:02pm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 22:55:00 BST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: genie-postmaster@GEIS.COM Subject: Re: Military ranks Original Msg Id: Not Found genie-postmaster response to your message Subject: Re: Military ranks System: QUIK-COMM Date: Thu 3-Feb-94 22:55 Status: 5 Message picked up by receiving system and delivered to all recipients with NO exceptions. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 21:11:00 BST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: genie-postmaster@GEIS.COM Subject: Gehlen, Irving, and Vlasov Original Msg Id: Not Found genie-postmaster response to your message Subject: Gehlen, Irving, and Vlasov System: QUIK-COMM Date: Thu 3-Feb-94 21:11 Status: 5 Message picked up by receiving system and delivered to all recipients with NO exceptions. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 1994 01:49:40 +0100 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Emmanuel Gustin Subject: Re: B-29s vs. Baka bombs: Akira? > Fascinating. Here we have John Lundstrom (published/foremost? > authority on (naval) air operations in the Pacific) and > Con Crane (newly published authority on American bombing policy/ > history) squaring off over whether the Japanese did or did not > use Baka bombs against B-29s over Japan. > it will be my turn to be a battlewagon.) > > Although "Ching" Crane seems to have some credible sources, trying > to hit a B-29 with a high-speed/low-maneuverability(?) Baka would > seem prohibitively/obviously futile. One possible explanation: It is not very well known, but the Japanese were developing some air-to-air missiles during WWII. Information about them seems to be very scarce -- Bill Gunston puts them in a tiny box in his 'encyclopedia of rockets and missiles'. Could the B-29 have witnessed an experimental attack with such weapons? Of course much smaller than a 'Baka', but they would have been lauched by bombers. Emmanuel Gustin ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Feb 1994 23:40:24 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Sloan Subject: Re: Military ranks I received a very garbled message titled Military ranks with no text that I can find. Whoever sent it please retransmit John Sloan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Feb 1994 23:48:27 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Sloan Subject: Re: Gehlen, Irving, and ... This is the second message received tonight without text - just a lot of routing information. Hope yo ucan fix the system John Sloan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 1994 08:06:06 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Kevin Kamphaus Subject: Can someone help this guy? I saw this on the ROOTS-L Genealogy Forum and knew that someone on this list would have the answer. Text follows: From: philipp@pioneer.uspto.gov On: 02/07/94 06:39 Subject: B-24 Liberator LADY BE GOOD I am looking for information reguarding the last crew of the B-24 Liberator called LADY BE GOOD that crash landed in the Lybian desert in 1943. I am researching Harold Ripslinger. Please email me directly at philipp@pioneer.uspto.gov Thanks Tim *****End of original message******* Thanks, Kevin Kamphaus usr5066a@tsol.uc.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 1994 09:15:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: MBURKE@VUVAXCOM.BITNET Subject: Manuscripts Solicited Manuscripts Solicited I would like to bring to the attention of interested authors a new series of critical biographies, Signpost Books, that invites proposals and inquiries. The Signpost series is committed to making contemporary historical research available to a broad audience of readers; we are interested in good writing as well as the latest in scholarship. Biographies in the Signpost series will reflect the diversity of the human experience by including the stories of men and women from different cultures and different social positions, from the prominent to the forgotten. Studies of those who protested their age are as welcome as those who guided it. The editors are particularly interested in the lives of individuals whose accomplishments spanned a variety of activities, and who lived prior to the twentieth century. Combined Books, Inc., publisher of the projected series, is a dynamic young independent publisher with a well-established reputation in military history. Signpost Books represents a bold new initiative that will complement its past successes in making the past come alive for interested readers. Inquiries should be directed to me, Michael Burke, Editorial Director of the series: Signpost Books Combined Books, Inc. 151 E. Tenth Ave. Conshohocken, PA 19428 INTERNET: MBURKE@VILL.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 1994 10:07:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: USAAF 3-6 FEB 44 COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES THURSDAY 3 FEBRUARY TO SUNDAY, 6 FEBRUARY 1944 FTP SITES 1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf 2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/ wwii_chronology AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT: A-20, Douglas Havoc A-24, Douglas Dauntless A-36, North American Apache B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress B-24, Consolidated Liberator B-25, North American Mitchell B-26, Martin Marauder Beaufighter, Bristol C-47, Douglas Skytrain F-5, Lockheed Lightning P-38, Lockheed Lightning P-39, Bell Airacobra P-40, Curtiss P-47, Republic Thunderbolt P-51, North American Mustang Spitfire, Vickers Supermarine Ventura, Lockheed THURSDAY, 3 FEBRUARY 1944 CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 16 P-38s attack bridges, encampments, and buildings along the Prome-Taungup road; 1 bridge is knocked out and another damaged; a tugboat is sunk at Akyab; 14 A-36s and a B-25 attack troops and camp area at Kumnyen and Lalawng Ga, and hit a motor pool and repair depot at Shingban; 16 P-51s hit an encampment at Sawnghka. EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 206: 553 of 671 B-17s hit the port area at Wilhelmshaven, Germany; another 56 hit the Emden area; and 1 hits Oldenburg; 1.8 million leaflets are dropped by B-17s; 193 B-24s are dispatched but they abort the mission over the Zuider Zee due to clouds; 0-1-0 Luftwaffe aircraft are claimed; 4 B-17s are lost, 1 B-24 is damaged beyond repair and 47 B-17s are damaged; casualties are 2 KIA, 9 WIA and 42 MIA. Escort is provided by 74 P-38s, 508 P-47s of the Eighth and Ninth Air Force and 50 Ninth Air Force P-51s; they claim 8-0-3 Luftwaffe aircraft; 8 P-47s and 1 P-51 are lost, 3 P-47s are damaged beyond repair and 13 P-47s are damaged; casualties are 9 MIA. Mission 207: 7 of 7 B-17s drop 420 bundles of leaflets on Paris, Rouen, Amiens, Reims, Orleans and Rennes, France at 2110-2146 hours; no losses. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): The 358th Fighter Group at Raydon becomes operational with P-47s. This is the first of 17 fighter groups which are to be added by 9 May 44 to the Ninth Air Force, which previously had only 1 fighter group, the 354th at Boxted with P-51s. 52 B-26s bomb V-weapon sites on the W coast of France. Weather causes 100+ other aircraft to abandon the mission. 380th Fighter Squadron, 363d Fighter Group, transfers from Keevil to Rivenhall, England with P-51s, first mission on 24 Feb. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Italy, B-24s, finding the primary target obscured by bad weather, bomb targets of opportunity (railroad yards and stations) at Stimigliano and Sulmona; other B-24s return to base without bombing; P-47s fly a fighter sweep over the Prato-Pontassieve area. 154th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron, 68th Tactical Reconnaissance Group attached to Fifteenth Air Force, arrives at Oran, Algeria from Bari, Italy with P-38s, first mission as a weather reconnaissance unit on 13 Feb. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): Medium bomber missions are all aborted. In Italy, A-36s hit roads and other targets S of Rome, destroying or damaging numerous trucks and bombing the towns of Sezze and Fondi as US ground forces meet strong resistance in their drive toward Cassino; P-47s hit Manopello and railroad facilities at Sulmona; and fighters patrol the Anzio area. HQ 332d Fighter Group and 100th Fighter Squadron arrive at Montecorvino, Italy from the US with P-39s, first mission on 19 Feb. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): P-40s from Makin Island, Gilbert Islands bomb and strafe Mille Atoll, Marshall Islands. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, P-40s and US Navy (USN) fighters cover a USN dive-bomber strike on Tobera; 15 B-24s with P-38 and USN fighter escort bomb the airfield at Lakunai; Allied aircraft claim 13 Japanese interceptors downed during the 2 strikes. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, nearly 100 B-24s and B-25s, supported by P-38s, P-40s and P-47s, pound airfields in the Wewak area; about 8O aircraft are destroyed on the ground and in the air; A-20s attack Alexishafen and the Hansa Bay areas; P-39s and B-25s on armed reconnaissance hit trucks at Erima, barges on the New Britain coast, shipping in the N Bismarck Sea, and Momote and Hyane Harbor on Los Negros Island. Transfers in New Guinea: HQ 3d Bombardment Group (Light) from Dobodura to Nadzab; 25th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, 6th Photographic Reconnaissance Group, from Brisbane, Australia to Lae with F-5s, first mission on 5 Feb; 673d Bombardment Squadron (Light), 417th Bombardment Group (Light), from Cape Sudest to Dobodura with A-20s, first mission on 25 Mar. FRIDAY, 4 FEBRUARY 1944 CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): 12 P-51s strafe runways and buildings at Indaw, Burma. EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 208: 589 B-17s and 159 B-24s are dispatched to attack industry and railroad yards at Frankfurt/ Main, Germany; 346 B-17s and 27 B-24s hit the target; due to weather and navigational problems, 122 B-17s hit Giessen, 51 B-17s hit Wiesbaden, 17 B-24s hit the Trier area, 15 B-24s hit the Arloff area, 2 B-24s hit the Russelheim area, 1 B-24 hits Grafenhausen, 1 B-24 hits Darmstadt, 1 B-17 and 1 B-24 hit Koblenz and 26 B-24s and 23 B-17s hit unknown targets; they claim 4-0-1 Luftwaffe aircraft; 18 B-17s and 2 B-24s are lost, 2 B-17s and 1 B-24 are damaged beyond repair and 359 aircraft are damaged; casualties are 7 KIA, 20 WIA and 203 MIA. Escort is provided by 56 P-38s, 537 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s and 44 Ninth Air Force P-51s; they claim 8-0-4 Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 P-38 is lost, 1 P-47 is damaged beyond repair and 5 P-38s and 4 P-47s are damaged; casualties are 1 MIA. Mission 209: 7 of 7 B-17s drop 319 bundles of leaflets on Lorient, Tours, Nantes, Raismes, Lille and Cambrai, France and Antwerp, Belgium at 2102-2132 hours without loss. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Major General Otto P Weyland becomes Commanding General, XIX Air Support Command. HQ 313th Troop Carrier Group transfers from Trapani/Milo Airfield, Sicily to Folkingham, England. US STRATEGIC AIR FORCES IN EUROPE: The abbreviation for this unit is changed from USSAFE to USSTAF. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In France, B-17s bomb Antheor viaduct and Toulon harbor; B-24s are forced by bad weather to return bombs to base; many of the B-17s returning from the Toulon raid are forced to land at various friendly fields because of unsafe flying conditions. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, weather prevents all medium, light and fighter-bomber missions; P-40s and Spitfires maintain patrols over the Anzio area, where a strong German counter-offensive had been launched during the night of 3/4 Feb. Detachment of 414th Night Fighter Squadron, 63d Fighter Wing, operating from Ghisonaccia with Beaufighters transfers to Borgo, Corsica; squadron is based at Elmas, Sardinia. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): AAF aircraft based in the Gilbert Islands bomb targets in the Marshall Islands, i.e., B-24s, flying from Tarawa Atoll and Makin Island, bomb Wotje, Maloelap and Mille Atolls; B-25s from Tarawa and Abemama Island also hit Wotje and Maloelap Atolls; P-40s based on Makin Island bomb and strafe Mille Atoll. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 25 B-25s, escorted by 40+ fighters, pound the airfield at Tobera; 18 B-24s, covered by 30+ P-38s and USN fighters, hit the airfield at Vunakanau. HQ 5th Bombardment Group (Heavy) transfers from Guadalcanal Island to Munda, New Georgia Island. 68th Fighter Squadron, 347th Fighter Group, transfers from Fiji to Bougainville Island, Solomon Islands with P-38s. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In the Moluccas Islands, B-24s and B-25s carry out small raids against Laha on Ambon Island, Namlea on Buru Island and Amboina on Ambon Island. In New Guinea, 170+ B-24s, A-20s. and B-25s bomb But and Dagua Airfields, Marienberg and the Madang- Alexishafen area; P-39s bomb and strafe Atemble and strafe targets of opportunity in the Alexishafen area. 672d, 674th and 675th Bombardment Squadrons (Light), 417th Bombardment Group (Light), transfer from Cape Sudest to Dobodura, New Guinea with A-20s, first mission on 25 Mar. SATURDAY, 5 FEBRUARY 1944 AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): In the Kurile Islands, 6 B-24s and 16 P-38s join USN aircraft to fly air cover in several relays during retirement of US light cruisers and destroyers following bombardment of installations in the Kurabu Cape-Musashi Bay areas; shortly afterwards, the aircraft also photograph and attack installations at Paramushiru and Shimushu. CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma during the early morning hours, 8 B-24s bomb the airfield at Heho while 6 others hit Aungban Airfield; 9 B-25s follow with strikes on Heho, Sagaing and Myittha Airfields. During the daylight hours 14 fighter-bombers hit the marshalling yard at Wuntho; during the night of 5/6 Feb, 9 B-24s again hit Heho and 4 bomb Aungban. CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 8 B-24s during the night of 5/6 Feb bomb Bangkok, Thailand. 3 others hit Nakhon Nayok and an unidentified airfield on the Mekong River both in French Indochina. 2 B-24s and 2 B-25s attack a convoy E of Hong Kong and claim 2 freighters and 3 smaller cargo vessels sunk. In Burma, 4 P-40s on armed reconnaissance strafe a big wagon and truck column N of Hsenwi; 4 others bomb and strafe Hopang, causing large fires in the village. EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): In view of the previous decision to concentrate most of the training activities of the Eighth Air Force in the VIII Air Force Composite Command, a decision is made to transfer HQ from Limavady, County Derry, Ireland, to Cheddington, England, to bring it closer to the combat crew training stations over which it is to be given supervision. Most of the transfer is completed between 7 and 15 Feb. Mission 210: Airfields in France are targetted. 103 B-17s are dispatched to Chateauroux/Martinerie and Avord Airfields with 50 hitting each target; 121 B-17s are dispatched to Chateaudun (61 bomb) and Orleans/Bricy (60 bomb) Airfields; 182 B-17s are dispatched to Romilly-sur-Seine air depot but 133 hit Villacoublay; 103 B-24s are dispatched to Meslay Airfield (90 bomb) and 8 hit Chateaudun; they claim 5-0-5 Luftwaffe aircraft; 2 B-24s are lost, 3 B-17s and 1 B-24 are damaged beyond repair and 39 B-17s and 31 B-24s are damaged; casualties are 1 KIA, 15 WIA and 22 MIA. Escort is provided by 92 P-38s, 496 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s and 46 Ninth Air Force P-51s; they claim 6-0-4 Luftwaffe aircraft; 2 P-47s are lost, 1 P-38 and 1 P-47 are damaged beyond repair and 1 P-38 and 1 P-47 are damaged; casualties are 2 MIA. Mission 211: 5 of 5 B-17s drop 300 bundles of leaflets during a CARPETBAGGER mission on Ghent, Monceau-sur-Sambre, Antwerp and Brussels, Belgium at 2026-2037 hours without loss. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Around 180 B-26s attack 6 V-weapon sites in N France. HQ 437th Troop Carrier Group transfers from Balderton to Ramsbury, England. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s bomb Terni marshalling yard, and A-20s hit the Lanuvio and Piedimonte areas. P-40s and A-36s hit road junctions at Cisterna di Latina, Vetralla, and Velletri, bomb the towns of Vetralla, Ardea, and Villa Santa Lucia degli Abruzzi, and attack motor transport at several points, including areas N, NE and SE of Rome. 58th, 59th and 60th Fighter Squadrons, 33d Fighter Group, begin a movement from Cercola, Italy to India with P-40s. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): In the Marshall Islands, P-40s from Makin Island, Gilbert Islands dive-bomb and strafe oil storage area, radio facilities, and small craft at Jaluit Atoll; P-39s strafe runways on Mille Atoll. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): 24 P-40s join 40+ USN fighters in covering a strike by more than 60 USN dive bombers on Lakunai, New Britain Island. This strike is followed by an attack of 13 B-24s, with 30+ P-38 and USN fighter escort, on the same target. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 70+ B-25s and A-20s attack the Hansa Bay area; 48 B-24s pound Hoskins Airfield, and some also bomb Gasmata Island off New Britain Island, after weather prevents an attack on Kavieng, New Ireland Island. B-24s fly a light raid on Kaimana, New Guinea. B-25s on armed reconnaissance in the W Bismarck Sea claim 1 freighter sunk; others bomb wrecked ships off New Hanover Island. SUNDAY, 6 FEBRUARY 1944 CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): 12 P-51s hit warehouses and freight cars at Wuntho, Burma and claim 4 warehouses destroyed. CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 11 P-40s on armed reconnaissance strafe sampans and power launches between Yoyang and Puchi, China. 6 B-25s knock out bridges and damage 3 trains at Anxuan, Tien An, Phong Loc and Dong Hoi, French Indochina. EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 212: Airfields in France are targetted but weather forces 400+ bombers to abort the mission. 189 B-17s are dispatched against the Romilly-sur-Seine Air Depot and 60 hit St Andre de L'Eure Airfield and 40 hit Evreux/Fauville Airfield; 303 B-17s are dispatched to Nancy/Essay and Dijon/Longvic Airfields but only 60 hit Caen/Carpiquet Airfield; 150 B-24s are dispatched to St Pol/Siracourt V-weapon site but 37 hit Chateaudun Airfield and 9 hit the Eclimeux V-weapon site; they claim 3-3-0 Luftwaffe aircraft; 4 B-17s are lost, 1 B-17 and 1 B-24 are damaged beyond repair and 43 B-17s and 7 B-24s are damaged; casualties are 7 KIA, 3 WIA and 43 MIA. Escorting are 85 P-38s, 506 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s and 47 Ninth Air Force P-51s; they claim 11-2-3 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 2-0-7 on the ground; 3 P-38s and 1 P-47 are lost, 1 P-38 and 2 P-47s are damaged beyond repair and 1 P-38 and 1 P-47 are damaged; casualties are 2 WIA and 4 MIA. Mission 213: 6 of 6 B-17s drop 363 leaflet bundles in a CARPETBAGGER mission over Brussels, Antwerp, Ghent, Liege and Monceau-sur-Sambre, Belgium at 2202-2225 hours without loss. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Around 120 B-26s bomb V-weapon sites, airfields, and a factory, all in France; principal targets bombed are at Rosieres-en-Santerre, Amiens/Glisy, Cormeilles-en-Vexin, and Grandvilliers. Transfers in England: 34th Troop Carrier Squadron, 315th Troop Carrier Group, from Wilford to Spanhoe (air echelon is operating from Blida, Algeria with C-47s); 83d, 84th, 85th and 86th Troop Carrier Squadrons, 437th Troop Carrier Group, from Balderton to Ramsbury with C-47s. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Bad weather restricts operations to photographic and weather reconnaissance flights. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-26s bomb the Orte marshalling yard while B-25s hit the Frascati road junction; A-20s bomb the Campoleone railroad station and the town of Roccasecca; P-40s bomb Cisterna di Latina, Santa Lucia (near Campoleone), Cori (and nearby road junction) and Atina; A-36s hit San Stefano al Mare, Cisterna di Latina, Frascati and Albano Laziale, and strike numerous vehicles, railroad cars and other targets of opportunity on armed reconnaissance missions N and S of Rome. A German counteroffensive against the Anzio beachhead and on the Cassino front forces an Allied withdrawal. HQ 12th Bombardment Group (Medium) and 81st, 82d, 83d and 434th Bombardment Squadrons (Medium) begin a movement from Gaudo Airfield, Italy to India with B-25s. HQ 33d Fighter Group begins a movement from Cercola, Italy to India. HQ 350th Fighter Group transfers from Sardinia to Corsica; 345th Fighter Squadron based in Sardinia begins operating from Corsica with P-39s. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): In the Marshall Islands, B-24s from Tarawa Atoll, Gilbert Islands hit Maloelap and Wotje Atolls; A-24s and P-40s from Makin Island, Gilbert Islands attack Mille Atoll; Tarawa-based P-39s strafe Jaluit Atoll. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): P-39s and Royal New Zealand Air Force (RNZAF) Ventura's hit barges in the Green Island area. Lakunai Airfield, New Britain Island, is hit by 32 B-25s, covered by 60+ AAF and USN fighters, and shortly afterwards by 19 B-24s, escorted by nearly 50 Allied fighters; Allied aircraft claim 16 aircraft shot down; Lakunai is practically unserviceable as a result of cumulative damage. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, B-25s and B-24s pound Bunabun Harbor, Madang, and targets from Bogia to Cape Croisilles; P-39s strafe and sink barges near Nubia; and A-20s hit shipping near Kairiru and Mushu Islands causing considerable damage and destruction. Other bombers hit targets in the Admiralty Islands (concentrating on Momote on Los Negros Island) and carry out light attacks on Talasea village and Cape Dampier gun positions on New Britain Island. SOURCES: AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1 COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF 1982 THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973 THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2 Jack McKillop USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service) 1955-59 ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jack McKillop | Those who have long enjoyed such | | Bellcore | privileges as we enjoy forget in | | Piscataway, NJ USA | time that men have died to win | | jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com | them. FDR | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 1994 10:36:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: USAAF 7 FEB 44 COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES MONDAY, 7 FEBRUARY 1944 FTP SITES 1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf 2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/ wwii_chronology AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT: A-20, Douglas Havoc A-36, North American Apache B-24, Consolidated Liberator B-25, North American Mitchell B-26, Martin Marauder F-5, Lockheed Lightning P-38, Lockheed Lightning P-39, Bell Airacobra P-40, Curtiss P-51, North American Mustang AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS CARIBBEAN (Sixth Air Force): 35th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 25th Bombardment Group (Medium), transfers from Vernam Field, Jamaica to Trinidad with B-25s. CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): A single B-25 bombs a motor pool at Sumprabum, Burma. CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 16 P-40s and 4 P-51s damage railroad bridges at Kienchang and Puchi and strafe warehouses at Teian. In French Indochina, 2 B-25s score 2 direct hits on the powerplant at Thanh Hoa, strafe nearby barracks, and attack the radio station at Vinh. EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 36th and 406th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), 1st Bombardment Division attached to 482d Bombardment Group (Heavy), transfer from Alconbury to Watton (36th continues operating from Alconbury) with B-24s; the squadrons fly CARPETBAGGER missions. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): HQ 315th Troop Carrier Group transfers from Welford to Stanhoe, England. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Bad weather again limits operations to photographic and weather reconnaissance missions. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-26s bomb the bridge approach S of Manziana; B-25s hit the Viterbo marshalling yard and, in support of US Fifth army troops, bomb the town of Cisterna di Latina as the enemy counterattack begins in the Anzio area; A-20s hit Piedimonte and the road junction and railway station at Campoleone; A-36s hit San Stefano al Mare and nearby railroad siding, Pontecorvo and Belmonte in Sabina, plus several targets of opportunity and targets in support of ground forces in the battle areas; P-40s attack an observation tower at Littoria, trucks at Villa Santa Lucia degli Abruzzi, Campoleone, a railroad gun, the Sezze railroad yards, Cisterna di Latina and gun positions in battle areas. Fighters encounter heavy aircraft activity over the Anzio battle area and claim 16 shot down. 302d Fighter Squadron, 332d Fighter Group, arrives at Montecorvino, Italy from the US with P-39s; first mission is 17 Feb. Detachment of 346th Fighter Squadron, 350th Fighter Group, based in Sardinia with P-39s, begins operating from Sidi Amor, Tunisia. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): Aircraft from the Gilbert Islands hit targets in the Marshall Islands, i.e., B-25s from Tarawa Atoll and Abemama Island hit Wotje and Maloelap Atolls and P-40s from Makin Island hit a storage area at Jaluit Atoll. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, P-40s join US Navy (USN) fighters in covering a USN dive-bomber strike on Tobera; several gun positions and grounded aircraft are hit and the runway is bombed into unserviceable condition; 11 aircraft are claimed shot down. Vunakanau Airfield is bombed by 17 B-24s, escorted by P-38s and USN fighters. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): 14 B-24s bomb Amboina, Ambon Island and Lautem, Timor Island. P-39s fly strafing sweeps over New Britain Island. Single B-25s on reconnaissance bomb Garua Harbor, Cape Dampier on New Britain Island and Kavieng on New Ireland Island. Transfers in New Guinea: HQ 35th Fighter Group from Nadzab to Gusap; HQ 417th Bombardment Group (Light) from Cape Sudest to Dobodura; 25th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, 6th Photographic Reconnaissance Group, from Lae to Nadzab with F-5s; 110th Reconnaissance Squadron (Fighter), 71st Reconnaissance Group, from Port Moresby to Gusap with P-39Qs. SOURCES: AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1 COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF 1982 THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973 THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2 Jack McKillop USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service) 1955-59 ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jack McKillop | Those who have long enjoyed such | | Bellcore | privileges as we enjoy forget in | | Piscataway, NJ USA | time that men have died to win | | jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com | them. FDR | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 1994 11:41:59 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Kim Patterson-Jewell Subject: ADMIN: Alternate address for List-Owner. In-Reply-To: <9402040631.AA25735@sage.cc.purdue.edu>; from "Automatic digest processor" at Feb 4, 94 12:01 am Hi, I'm coming back up to full speed and training Kim to help with WWII-L. Note this address and save it. Currently it will be for emergencies only, but if I drop off the planet, Kim should be able to handle the list. (She's having kittens as she reads over my shoulder but she'll do alright with some practice :-). Kim's address is jewellk@sage.cc.purdue.edu and she is officially co-listowner so she speaks with my voice on matters pertaining to the list (but not on certain political matters ;-). Proofreaders standby for private mail re the book. Larry J (Kim sig under construction, needs primo MacArthur quote, got any?) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 01:26:00 BST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: genie-postmaster@GEIS.COM Subject: Re: WWII-L Meeting Original Msg Id: Not Found genie-postmaster response to your message Subject: Re: WWII-L Meeting System: QUIK-COMM Date: Fri 4-Feb-94 1:26 Status: 5 Message picked up by receiving system and delivered to all recipients with NO exceptions. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 1994 16:24:41 GMT-6 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Terry Moore Organization: Amarillo College PCAD-ML Subject: Death Notice To all whom it may concern! I just found out today that Colonel Carroll C. Smith, USAF, Ret., passed away 1 Jan 1994 of a massive heart attack. Colonel Smith was the top-scoring US night fighter ace during WWII. He enlisted in the Army Air Corps in 1940 and retired as Deputy Chief of Operations, Air Defense Command in 1971. Colonel Smith was credited with shooting down 7 Japanese aircraft flying P-38J's and the P-61 "Black Widow". His aircraft's name was "Time's A Wastin". He was the only U.S. night fighter ace to shoot down 4 enemy aircraft at night in a single mission. Colonel Smith is buried in Barrancas National Cemetery in Orlando, Florida. He was 76 years old. It was my privelege and honor to have had him and his wife, Mahalla, in our home in June 1992 in which he told me many interesting details of his military career, and especially his flying experiences with the P-61. I hope this has been of interest. Terry Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077 fax 806-371-5370 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 1994 16:39:20 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A." Subject: Ref: Royal Winnepeg Rifles In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of TUE 01 FEB 1994 09:44:35 CST I spoke with my friend is is a reenactor of the Royal Winnepeg Rifles. He's done research on the unit for the past five years to create their impression. Chris Smead is also a First Lieutenant in the Army Reserve. Chris said that the unit did have some normal aged soldiers in it, but the vast percentage of line troops were younger than most units. He noted several members being 16, with the majority being 18-20. His conclusion of this comes from research to include photographs (they look young) to discussions with the veteran's organization. He also said a fairly good number of vet's are still around because they are on the average several years younger than most vet's. The incident regarding the SS Officer getting strapped on the front of the tank occurred during the Carpiquet Airport campaign. The unit, which he did not remember the designation (not the RWR's), strapped the SS Officer on the glacis plate of the tank, and that tank led the armored assault. Chris also added that the Canadians had an extreme distaste for the Germans, and were prone to have less sympathy for prisoners. This is a result of what occurred at Dieppe, and the Canadians just never forgave the Germans for it. (I didn't ask for more details--not sure what this means---somebody chime in if they understand). If anyone would like to dispute this information, please contact me directly and I can put you in touch with Chris. I should be getting some information together about the meeting at Jefferson Barracks, MO and have it posted by the middle of the week. It will include directions, schedule for the event, hotel information and general information. If anyone is planning to go to Oshkosh this year, it appears like the WWII Airman's Preservation Society will be putting on a mock-mission briefing. I will be the S-2 briefer, with other APS members doing the weather, and op's brief. I do not have a firm date for that yet. It will be held in their Quonset hut that is made up like a briefing room. I will pass more details as they become available. TAS ************************************************************************ * Tim A. Scherrer "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of * * Facilities Supervisor your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971 * * WP:816-785-5253 * * HP:816-665-6704 * * ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU * ************************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 1994 18:52:18 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: GEORGE BAUER Organization: Rockhurst College; Kansas City, MO Subject: Help... Can someone refresh my memory? I seem to remember a speech about 1939 made possibly by Chamberlain to the effect that we cannot get involved in a war in a faroff land over people about which we know nothing... My paraphrase is not so goo, I fear. But can someone give me the exact quote, who said it, and when. I wonder if we are re-living the conditions in Europe which prompted that quote... Any response??? ========================================================================= | DR. GEORGE R. BAUER | INTERESTS: | | | Computers in Business & Education. | | Recently returned from my second | Education: Curriculum development.| | extended stay in Prague. | International Education, TEFL. | | | Central Europe: Post revolution | | Working on second book about | economic, social, political | | Prague and new Czech Republic. | problems and opportunities. | | E-Mail: | Free lance writing and editing. | | USA: BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET | Stamp collecting. | ========================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 1994 21:25:17 +0000 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Behrens Subject: Schindler's List In-Reply-To: <199402080125.RAA10440@netcomsv.netcom.com> Everyone has been talking about good war movies recently. I finally went to see Schindler's List last night. Then it occured to me that the film has been out for about a month, yet no one on this list has brought it up as a topic of conversation. I thought this was strange because the Holocaust has not been avoided in the past as a topic. Anyway, I was wondering what all you historians and history buffs thought of the film. Was it as historically accurate as it could have been? Did they leave to much out, or put to much in (3 1/2 hrs.)? I personally thought it was one of the most powerful films I have ever seen. Surely there is someone out there that is familiar with this epic story and can give their two cents worth. Comments? John ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 07:12:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: USAAF 8 FEB 44 COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES TUESDAY, 8 FEBRUARY 1944 FTP SITES 1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf 2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/ wwii_chronology AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT: A-20, Douglas Havoc A-36, North American Apache B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress B-24, Consolidated Liberator B-25, North American Mitchell B-26, Martin Marauder P-38, Lockheed Lightning P-39, Bell Airacobra P-40, Curtiss P-47, Republic Thunderbolt P-51, North American Mustang CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 7 B-25s bomb bridges at Budalin and Songon, displacing a section of the former and destroying an approach to the latter; 7 others hit the stronghold at Badana; 16 A-36s and P-51s and 1 B-25 hit a camp at Mogaung; 4 P-51s strafe railroad cars NW of Myitkyina while 1 B-25 bombs a camp at Kumnyen. EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 214: 53 of 54 B-24s hit the V-weapon site at Siracourt, France while 57 of 73 B-24s hit the V-weapon site at Watten, France; 41 B-24s are damaged and 10 airmen are WIA; escort is 89 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s. 88 of 236 B-17s hit the marshalling yards at Frankfurt, Germany using blind-bombing techniques; 107 other B-17s hit targets of opportunity; they claim 1-3-0 Luftwaffe aircraft; 13 B-17s are lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 108 damaged; casualties are 11 KIA, 4 WIA and 130 MIA; escort is provided by 77 P-38s, 435 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s and 41 Ninth Air Force P-51s; they claim 16-1-8 Luftwaffe aircraft; 2 P-38s, 3 P-47s and 4 P-51s are lost, 1 P-47 is damaged beyond repair and 4 P-47s are damaged; casualties are 9 MIA. Mission 215: 6 of 6 B-17s drop 360 bundles of leaflets in a CARPETBAGGER operation over Caen, Rouen, Paris, Rennes and Amiens, France at 2106-2136 hours without loss. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): HQ Ninth Air Force extends IX Bomber Command's choice of targets considerably, although first priority for Operation POINTBLANK missions [the Combined Bomber Offensive (CBO) of US and RAF air forces against the Luftwaffe and German aircraft industry] and next priority for Operation CROSSBOW (code name for operations against German V-weapon sites) targets is maintained. In a morning raid, nearly 200 B-26s attack V-weapon sites and targets of opportunity in NW France. In an afternoon raid, 100+ B-26s bomb V-weapon sites and military installations in the same general area, most of the B-26s attacking Breck-sur-Mer. This is the IX Bomber Command's first 2-mission day. 494th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 344th Bombardment Group (Medium), arrives at Stansted, England from the US with B-26s; first mission is 29 Feb. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): The 454th Bombardment Group (Heavy) with B-24s becomes operational, giving the Fifteenth Air Force 10 operational heavy bomber groups. In Italy, B-24s bomb airfields at Viterbo, Tarquinia, Orvieto, Piombino and Prato; B-17s hit the marshalling yard at Verona; P-38s and P-47s escort the Orvieto, Piombino, and Prato missions. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s bomb Cisterna di Latina; B-26s hit the Siena marshalling yard and warehouses, and a railway bridge NE of Civita Castellana; A-20s bomb Piedimonte; A-36s attack gun positions near Ausonia, tracks between Rome and Orte, and the town of Veroli, and fly strafing and bombing sweeps in the Anzio battle area against motor transport, gun positions, road junction E of Cisterna di Latina, and the town of Pontecorvo; P-40s hit Roccasecca, Castello, Caprile, Piedimonte, Aquino and other targets, including a supply dump and gun positions; P-47s bomb Atina; Desert Air Force (DAF) fighters [US and Royal Air Force (RAF)] destroy a large number of trucks near Sora. 301st Fighter Squadron, 332d Fighter Group, arrives at Montecorvino, Italy from the US with P-39s; first mission is 15 Feb. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-24s from Makin and Abemama Islands, Gilbert Islands hit Maloelap and Mille Atolls, Marshall Islands. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): P-39s over Bougainville Island bomb and strafe Tiaraka huts and bivouac area. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, nearly 50 A-20s and B-25s hit the Alexishafen and Madang areas; P-39s strafe targets of opportunity during sweeps over wide areas of NE New Guinea and New Britain Island; during the night of 8/9 Feb, B-25s bomb Toeal. SOURCES: AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1 COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF 1982 THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973 THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2 Jack McKillop USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service) 1955-59 ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jack McKillop | Those who have long enjoyed such | | Bellcore | privileges as we enjoy forget in | | Piscataway, NJ USA | time that men have died to win | | jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com | them. FDR | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 07:33:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: P-47's post WWII Last week, I posted a brief history of the 47th Fighter Squadron including post-WWII service. Subsequently, Steve Alvin asked about the use of the Republic P/F-47 Thunderbolts in post-WWII USAF service and this post is an attempt to answer the questions. The last unit to fly the Jug was the 199th Fighter Squadron, Hawai ANG which converted from the F-47 to F-86 in Feb 1954. The last unit to fly the F-51 Mustang was the 167th Fighter Squadron, West Virginia ANG who operated them until 1957. The question that Steve asked was why did the 47th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron, a Regular Air Force unit, operate F-47's in 1952 and 1953. To understand this, you must go back to 8 Dec 48 when the 136th Fighter Squadron (Single Engine), New York Air National Guard, was extended federal recognition at NAS Niagara Falls, New York and soon was equipped with F-47D's. On 1 Mar 51, the 136th was activated as part of the Korean War call-up and was assigned to the Air Defense Command but remained at Niagara Falls; shortly after call-up, the squadron was redesignated the 136th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron while still flying their Jugs. On 1 Dec 52, two events occurred that explains it all. On that date, (1) the 136th was deactivated and returned to the control of New York State sans aircraft and (2) the 47th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron was activated at Niagara Falls. The F-47D's of the 136th were simply reassigned to the 47th! The 47th, being an air defense unit, would normally have been equipped with the North American F-86D Sabre but the Sabre Dog was two years behind production schedule however, by the end of 1953, 600 Sabre Dog's had been delivered so the 47th converted from the D-model Jug to the D-model Sabre in 1953. Since there seemed to be some interest in Jugs flying after WWII, I did some more checking and came up with the following. After World War II, the USAF was constructed around funtional commands rather than theater air forces. The following major commands were activated after World War II; the information I have found on each is also listed: AIR DEFENSE COMMAND (ADC) ------------------------- Activated on 27 Mar 46. Became an operational command of Continental Air Command (CONAC) and on 1 Sep 49, the Eastern and Western Air Defense Forces (EADF and WADF), reporting directly to CONAC, assumed control over US air defense forces and ADC was discontinued on 1 Jul 50. ADC was again organized on 1 Jan 51 and again assumed responsibility for air defense which it continued until inactivated on 31 Mar 80. The following ADC wings operated Jugs after WWII: 14th Fighter Wing, Dow Field, Maine: 1947-49 33d Fighter-Interceptor Wing, Otis AFB, Massachusetts: 1951-52 (I think this was the 133d Fighter Squadron, an activated ANG unit) 52d Fighter-Interceptor Wing, McGuire AFB, New Jersey: 1951-52 (I think this was an activated ANG squadron that was assigned) 56th Fighter-Interceptor Wing, Selfridge AFB, Michigan: 1951-52 (I think this was an activated ANG squadron that was assigned) ALASKAN AIR COMMAND (AAC) ------------------------- The Eleventh Air Force was redesignated Alaska Air Command on 18 Dec 45. I have no information on piston-engine fighter usage by AAC. CONTINENTAL AIR COMMAND (CONAC) ------------------------------- Organized on 1 Dec 48 and assumed jurisdiction over ADC and the Tactical Air Command (TAC) plus all Air Force reserve units because most of these forces were to be used in either air defense or tactical operations. On 1 Dec 50, TAC was reestablished as a major command and removed from assignment to CONAC followed by ADC on 1 Jan 51 when CONAC ceased to handle the air defense mission. After 1 Jan 51, CONAC was primarily responsible for administering the Air Force Reserve and Air National Guard until CONAC was inactivated on 1 Aug 68. Details on ANG piston-engine fighter units are included below; I have no information on piston-engine Air Force Reserve units. FAR EAST AIR FORCES (FEAF) -------------------------- Pacific Air Command, U.S. Army was redesignated FEAF on 1 Jan 47. The three air forces assigned to FEAF were the Fifth Air Force in Japan, the Thirteenth Air Force in the Philippines and the Twentieth Air Force on Okinawa. Prior to the Korean War, the following units operated Jugs: 18th Fighter Wing, Clark AFB, Philippines: 1948 23d Fighter Wing, Northwest Guam AFB, Guam: 1948-49 301st Fighter Wing, Naha AAB, Okinawa: 1944-48 As of 25 Jun 50 (the invasion of South Korea), the only piston-engine fighters operated by these three air forces were North American F-82 Twin Mustang all-weather fighters by the following units: 4th Fighter-All Weather Squadron (atttached to 51st Fighter-Interceptor Wing) at Naha, Okinawa 68th Fighter-All Weather Squadron (attached to 8th Fighter-Bomber Wing) at Itazuke, Japan. 339th Fighter-All Weather Squadron at Yokota, Japan. PACIFIC AIR COMMAND (PAC) ------------------------- Seventh Air Force was redesignated PAC on 15 Dec 47 and inactivated on 31 May 49. The 81st Fighter Wing at Wheeler AFB, Territory of Hawaii operated Jugs in 1948-49. STRATEGIC AIR COMMAND (SAC) --------------------------- The Continental Air Forces were redesignated SAC on 21 Mar 46. Between 1946 and 1948, SAC operated P/F-51's; the number assigned in each year was: 1946: 85 1947: 230 1948: 131 SAC did not operate any P/F-47's during these years. All single-engine piston fighters were gone by 1949. The 108th Fighter-Bomber Wing, an ANG unit with Jugs, was assigned to SAC as a training outfit after being called-up in 1951 but was transferred to TAC. TACTICAL AIR COMMAND (TAC) -------------------------- TAC was activated on 21 Mar 46 and was reassigned to CONAC as an operational command on 1 Dec 48 and TAC became involved primarily in Air Force Reserve and Air National Guard training programs and field exercises. On 20 Sep 50, TAC became an operational and administrative command under CONAC, and on 1 Dec 50, again became a major command. The following TAC units operated Jugs: 332d Fighter Wing at Lockbourne AAB/AFB, Ohio; 1947-49. 405th Fighter-Bomber Wing, Godman AFB, Ky: 1952 (The 405th replaced the 108th Fighter-Bomber Wing, an ANG outfit, at Godman AFB in Dec 52. Some of the Jugs were probably left over from the ANG.) UNITED STATES AIR FORCES IN EUROPE (USAFE) ------------------------------------------ US Strategic Air Forces (USSTAF) was redesiganted USAFE on 7 Aug 45. USAFE operated both P-51's and P/F-47's after World War II. The information I have is that as of 31 Dec of the year indicated, USAFE had: 1945: Both P-47's and P-51's 1946: P-47's 1947-49: F-47's By Sep/Oct 50, USAFE became a complete jet fighter unit when the last Jugs were delivered to Erding AB for termporary storage. They were later delivered to the Italian Air Force under MDAP. One wing that operated Jugs was the 86th Fighter Wing at Neubiberg AB, Germany which operated them during 1948-50. AIR NATIONAL GUARD ------------------ Connecticut ANG --------------- 118th Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended Federal recognition on 7 Aug 46 at Bradley Field, Windsor Locks and received P-47N's. Activated 1 Feb 51 and served as ADC unit at Suffolk Co AFB, NY. Returned to state control 1 Dec 52 and converted to F-51H's and then to F-84D's in Jan 53. Delaware ANG ------------ 142d Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended Federal recognition on 6 Sep 46 at New Castle Co Airport (now Greater Wilmington Airport); received P-47N's in Feb 47. Conveted to F-84C's in Feb 50. District of Columbia ANG ------------------------ 121st Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended Federal recognition on 20 Oct 26 at Andrews AAFld, Md; received P-47D's in Feb 47. Converted to F-84C's in Dec 49. Georgia ANG ----------- 128th Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recognition at Marietta AB (now Dobbins AFB); soon equipped with P-47N's. Activated 10 Oct 50 and began transitioning to F-84D's. Returned to state control 10 Jul 52 without aircraft and re-equipped with F-51H's; converted to F-84D's in Winter 1952. 158th Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recogniation 13 Oct 46 at Chatham Field, Savannah; soon equipped with P-47N's. Converted to F-80C's in Summer 1948. Activated 10 Oct 50; returned to state control 10 Jul 52 without aircraft and re-equipped with F-51H's and converted to F-84D's in Jul 53. Hawaii ANG ---------- 199th Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recogniation 4 Nov 46 at Bellow Field, Oahu; received F-47N's in Jul 47. Converted to F-86E's in Feb 54, the last USAF unit to fly the Jug. Maine ANG --------- 132d Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recognition 5 Feb 47 at Dow Field, Bangor; soon equipped with P-47D's. Converted to F-80C's in Summer 1948. Activated 1 Feb 51 and converted to F-51D's to provide air defense from Dow AFB. Returned to state control but remained at Dow AFB and converted to F-51H's until transitioning to F-94A's in Jun 54. Maryland ANG ------------ 104th Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recognition 17 Aug 46 at Harbor Field, Baltimore; soon equipped with P-47D's. Converted to F-51H's in Aug 51 and back to F-51D's in Fall 1954. Last F-51D phased out by Sep 55 and left with T-33A's; re-equipped with F-86E's which were operated from Friendship Airport (now BWI). Massachusetts ANG ----------------- 101st Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recogniation 15 Oct 46 at Logan Airport, Boston; soon equipped with P-47N's. Converted to F-84B's in Spring 1950; to F-51H's in Nov 51; and to F-94A/B's in Jul 54. 131st Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recognition 24 Feb 47 at Barnes Field, Westfield; soon equipped with P-47D's. Converted to F-51H's in Nov 51 and to F-94A/B's in Spring 1954. Mississipppi ANG ---------------- 153d Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recognition 12 Sep 46 at Key Field, Meridian; soon equipped with P-47N's. Activated 1 Mar 51 and assigned to SAC at Turner AFB, Ga and then TAC at Godman AFB, Ky. Returned to state control on 27 Nov 52 without aircraft. Re-equipped with RF-51D's on 1 Dec 52; converted to RF-80A's in Jun 55. New Hampshire ANG ----------------- 133d Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recognition 4 Apr 47 at Grenier Field, Manchester; soon equipped with P-47D's. Activated 1 Feb 51 but remained at Grenier Field with Jugs as an ADC unit. Returned to state control 1 Nov 52 without aircraft and converted to F-51H's then to F-94A/B's in Jun 54. New Jersey ANG -------------- 119th Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recogniation 29 Jan 47 at Newark MAP; soon equipped with P-47D's. Converted to F-51H's in Feb 52; to F-51D's in Jul 54; and to F-86E's in May 55. 141st Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recogniation 26 May 49 at Mercer Co Airport, West Trenton equipped with F-47D's; activated 1 Mar 51 and assigned to SAC at Turner AFB, Ga and then TAC at Godman AFB, Ky. Returned to state control 1 Dec 52 without aircraft and soon re-equipped with F-51H's. Converted to F-86A's Feb 54. New York ANG ------------ 136th Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recognition 8 Dec 48 at NAS Niagara Falls; soon equipped with F-47D's. Activated 1 Mar 51 but remained at Niagara Falls as an ADC unit. Returned to state control 1 Dec 52 without aircraft and soon converted to F-51H's and then to F-94B's in Feb 54. 137th Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recognition 24 Jun 48 at Westchester Co Airport, White Plains; soon equipped with F-47D's; Converted to F-51H's in Sep 52 and to F-94A/B's in Jun 53. 138th Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recognition 28 Oct 47 at Hancock Field, Syracuse; soon equipped with F-47D's. Converted to F-84B's in Jan 50; to F-51H's in Nov 50 and F-94A/B's in Feb 54. 139th Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recognition 18 Nov 48 at Schenectady Airport; soon equipped with F-47D's. Converted to F-51H's in 1951 and to F-94B's in 1954. North Carolina ANG ------------------ 156th Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recognition 15 Mar 48 at Morris Field, Charlotte; soon equipped with F-47D's. Converted to F-51D's in Dec 49. Activated 10 Oct 50 and converted to F-84D's and then F-84E's. Returned to state control at Morris Field 10 Jul 52 without aircraft and re-equipped with F-51D's. Converted to F-86A's in Summer 1955. Pennsylvania ANG ---------------- 146th Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recognition 18 Jun 48 at Greater Pittsburgh Airport with F-47N's. Converted to F-51H's in May 51 and F-84F's in Oct 54. 147th Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recognition 22 Apr 49 at Greater Pittsburgh Airport with F-47N's. Converted to F-51H's in Oct 52 and to F-84F's in Jul 55. 148th Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recognition 27 Feb 47 at Spaatz Field, Reading with P-47D's. Converted to F-51D's in Aug 50. Activated 1 Feb 51 and sent to Dover AFB, Del as an ADC unit where it converted to F-86A's and later F-94B's. Returned to state control 1 Nov 52 withut aircraft and re-equipped with F-51D's. The last F-51D was retired 27 Jan 57 and the unit was inactivated on 31 Oct 57. Puerto Rico ANG --------------- 198th Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recognition 23 Nov 47 at Isla Grande Airport, San Juan; soon equipped with F-47N's. Converted to F-86E's in Jul 54. Rhode Island ANG ---------------- 152d Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recognition 15 Sep 48 at TF Green Airport, Warwick with F-47D's. Converted to F-51D/H's Summer 52. Partially converted to F-84D's early 1954 but since TF Green could not support jet operations, the unit was inactivated on 19 Nov 55. Tennessee ANG ------------- 105th Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recognition 3 Feb 47 at Berry Field, Nashville MAP; soon equipped with P-47D's. Activated 1 Mar 51 and converted to F-51D's in Apr 51 and to F-82F's in May 51. Returned to state control 1 Dec 52 without aircraft and re-equipped with RF-51D's; converted to RF-80A's in Sep 54. Vermont ANG ----------- 134th Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recognition 14 Aug 46 at Burlington MAP; P-47D's assigned Apr 47. Converted to F-51D's in Jul 50 and activated 1 Feb 51. Returned to state control 31 Oct 52 with F-51D's and converted to F-94A/B's in Apr 54. Virginia ANG ------------ 149th Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recognition 21 Jun 47 at Byrd Field, Richmond; soon equipped with P-47D's. Acitvated 1 Mar 51 and served with SAC at Turner AFB, Ga and TAC at Godman Field, Ky. Returned to state control 1 Dec 52 without aircraft and re-equipped with B-26B/C's. West Virginia ANG ----------------- 167th Fighter Squadron (Single Engine) extended federal recognition 1 Mar 47 at Kanawha Co Airport, Charleston; soon equipped with P-47D's. Converted to F-51D's in Aug 48. Activated 10 Oct 50 and converted to F-84B's. Returned to state control 10 Jul 52 without aircraft and re-equipped with F-51D's. Moved to Martinsburg MAP Dec 55. Partially equipped with T-28A's in Oct 56; last F-51D donated to American Legion Post on 1 Mar 57. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 08:44:15 -0400 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Dennis E. Sparks" Subject: Re: Schindler's List At the risk of incurring Larry's ire, I too would like to recommend the movie "Schindler's List". I am not Jewish, and have no family history that is touched by the Holocaust. I did not grow up, as Spielberg did, with older relatives recounting the events. I am not even a big Steven Spielberg fan; I've always thought his movies were okay, but didn't see what the big fuss was about. But this movie is powerful. I sat in a tiny little cramped theater with two hundred or so others, in seats that were smaller than a commuter airliner's, for three+ hours in utter silence. When the movie was over, the entire audience filed out of the theater, past the noisy throngs waiting to enter, still in utter silence. I have never experienced anything quite like it. Only several days afterwards did it occur to me to realize that a movie, no matter how well crafted, can only impart to the viewer the tiniest fraction of the horror, grief, and hatred that was the Holocaust. I leave it to others to judge the historical accuracy. I can tell you that it is one of the best examples of the cinematic art that I've ever seen. Dennis E. Sparks SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU Lexington, Kentucky ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 08:51:12 EDT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: RICHARD KING Subject: Addr: Help (quote) George: This sounds like it may be what you are looking for: "How horrible, fantastic, incredible, it is that we should be digging trenches and trying on gas-masks here because of a quarrel in a far-away country between people of whom we know nothing." --(Of Germany's annexation of the Sudetenland.) Radio broadcast, 27 Sept. 1938. K. Feilin g, LIFE OF NEVILLE CHAMBERLAIN, bk.iv ch.28 (from THE OXFORD DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS, 3rd ed.) Richard King, Reference Librarian, Vincennes (IN) Univ. RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 09:06:16 EDT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: RICHARD KING Subject: Addr: Lost Ships of Guadalcanal If anyone is interested, I'm reading a fascinating book that just came in. It is called THE LOST SHIPS OF GUADALCANAL, by Robert D. Ballard, and contains extremely beautiful underwater photographs (and some beautiful paintings) of all the ships that lie in deep water near Guadalcanal. The ships lie just like they did on the day they sank, with their guns pointing in all directions ready to fire. I find it unusual that there don't seem to be very many aircraft. A few lie there, but really one would think there would be many. There also are a few photos of remains of the land battles. For some reason, I have always been drawn to before and after photos of the war (hence my posting last summer of the AFTER THE BATTLE magazine that attempts to juxtapose WWII era photos with modern shots at the same location). You know the war has been over a long time when the book I mentioned is cataloged under the heading Guadalcanal Island (Solomon Islands)--Antiquities. Has anyone read this one? ************************************************************* Richard King (RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 14:51:04 GMT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Stephen Baldwin Subject: Re: Addr: Lost Ships of Guadalcanal > If anyone is interested, I'm reading a fascinating book > that just came in. It is called THE LOST SHIPS OF GUADALCANAL, > by Robert D. Ballard, and contains extremely beautiful underwater > photographs (and some beautiful paintings) of all the ships that > lie in deep water near Guadalcanal. The ships lie just like they > did on the day they sank, with their guns pointing in all directions > ready to fire. I find it unusual that there don't seem to be very > many aircraft. A few lie there, but really one would think there > would be many. There also are a few photos of remains of the land > battles. For some reason, I have always been drawn to before and > after photos of the war (hence my posting last summer of the > AFTER THE BATTLE magazine that attempts to juxtapose WWII era > photos with modern shots at the same location). > You know the war has been over a long time when the book > I mentioned is cataloged under the heading Guadalcanal Island > (Solomon Islands)--Antiquities. Has anyone read this one? > ************************************************************* > Richard King (RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU) I've seen some of Robert D. Ballard's books before - The fellow is incredible. It seems that if there's anything underwater, he can find it. He found the Titanic, and also um The Bismarck or the Scharnhorst (can't remember which). Re After The Battle, I've heard about this magazine, (but have never read it - is it commonly available in the UK?). They produced a very good book on the Somme, and several others on WWI, "Then and Now" type books. Do they do similar for WWII? steve baldwin smb@netmgrs.co.uk ********************************************************************** Quotation "We wear Wranglers, very tight Wranglers. You gotta pack everything in there, like a freaking sardine, man. Because if there's one thing I've learned in the business, it's at least have your package looking good." Stephen Baldwin on the cowboy outfits he wears in his next film, Eight Seconds to Glory, quoted in "More!" magazine ********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 10:02:15 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Sidney W. Kitchel" Subject: Re: Schindler's List In-Reply-To: from "Dennis E. Sparks" at Feb 8, 94 08:44:15 am Dennis E. Sparks writes: |-> |-> But this movie is powerful. I sat in a tiny little cramped theater |-> with two hundred or so others, in seats that were smaller than |-> a commuter airliner's, for three+ hours in utter silence. When |-> the movie was over, the entire audience filed out of the theater, |-> past the noisy throngs waiting to enter, still in utter silence. I have |-> never experienced anything quite like it. You have described my own viewing experience except in one particular -- tears. Most of the silent left with tears in their eyes. |-> |-> I leave it to others to judge the historical accuracy. I can tell you |-> that it is one of the best examples of the cinematic art that I've |-> ever seen. I'm not an expert on occurrences in Poland during WWII, but I did not detect any gross historical problems. I could not help thinking during the movie that the slave labor commandant must have been trained by Josef Stalin. Both were experts at random terror. --Sid -- Sidney W. Kitchel kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com Data Parallel Systems, Inc. ============|| DPSI ||=============== 4617 E. Morningside Drive (812) 334-8100 Bloomington, Indiana, 47408 USA FAX: (812) 334-8121 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 09:39:59 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Alan Wild Subject: Re: Death Notice Hats off to Col. Smith. Any brave souls going fight the crowds for the 50th D-Day anniversary? I hear the region hasn't accomodations for the crowd expected. I imagine it will be tough around the 3rd-7th. -Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ALAN WILD, LAN MGR. FATHER OF 1 TERRESTRIAL VOICE: (401) 792-2611 ACC - LIPPITT - URI AND 1 STILL IN THE WOMB. FAX: (401) 792-5479 KINGSTON, RI 02881 AMERICAN LEGION POST 102 INTERNET: AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 10:19:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "W. C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" Subject: Re: Addr: Lost Ships of Guadalcanal And the video, marketed also by National Geographic is one of the very best, both from a contemporary perspective AND from a historical one, since it contains much footage from the actual Guadalcanal campaign. Well worth having in your collection. Bill @ PITT N93774@vms.cis.pitt.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 11:08:21 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Sloan Subject: Bataan Death March HI all, I have a student I am trying to assist, who is writing a term paper on the Bataan Death March. If anyone would be so kind as to provide a couple of favorite bibliographical references, their help would be much appreciated. If possible the references should be reasonably available in libraries we can get to. Sincerely John Sloan JohnS426@AOL.COM ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 10:09:34 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A." Subject: Re[2]: Addr: Lost Ships of Guadalcanal In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of TUE 08 FEB 1994 08:51:04 CST After the Battle is readily available through Globe Militaria in Keene, NH. Also, they sell Militaria Magazine, which is an incredible publication----If you read French. I heard that it may be published in English as well starting this year for approximately $80 a year. TAS ************************************************************************ * Tim A. Scherrer "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of * * Facilities Supervisor your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971 * * WP:816-785-5253 * * HP:816-665-6704 * * ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU * ************************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 10:41:01 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR Subject: Re: Death Notice > Any brave souls going fight the crowds for the 50th D-Day anniversary? > I hear the region hasn't accomodations for the crowd expected. I imagine > it will be tough around the 3rd-7th. -Al > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ALAN WILD, LAN MGR. FATHER OF 1 TERRESTRIAL VOICE: (401) 792-2611 > ACC - LIPPITT - URI AND 1 STILL IN THE WOMB. FAX: (401) 792-5479 > KINGSTON, RI 02881 AMERICAN LEGION POST 102 INTERNET: AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hi Alan, I had planned to but we just had a baby and she will still be too young to travel by that time. One idea for those who, like me, always come up a day late and a dollar short on things like this on the hotel situation. You might try this idea. If there are no hotels available or they are too expensive jump on a train and go anywhere, turn around and come back. If you check the schedules you can time it just right. Having a Eurail Pass helps too but you can buy the tickets at any station and the price for last minute trips is the same as if you buy in advance. You can get a sleeper if they are not all taken and they are ok. I always just crashed in 2nd class and made do. Saved a hundred bucks a night that way on many occasions. Those days may be done now that we have a baby but if your wild and free you might take it for what its worth. I always felt I could use the money more effectively at the auction or museums than for overpriced hotels. If you suspect the train will be crowded just get a reservation. You will probably have to for a sleeper. I don't know cuz the seats in 2nd class always folded down into a bed (of sorts) anyway. One word of caution, if you do this do not wear jewelry, flash money or display any neat electronics or photographic equipment. There are people who ride trains looking to share the wealth of unsuspecting tourists without their permission. Some of them use chloroform. I never had a problem because I did not flash any of the above desirable things and my luggage consisted of a beat up gym bag that housed my video camera and a WWII German ruck sack that had clothes, snacks and a canteen. Don't shave in a couple of days and generally try to look like a hard target and you won't be bothered. Get a 220/110 electric razor and clean up before arriving at your destination and you are good to go. Even the trains in Italy had electricity in the bathrooms good enough to run a razor. Just a few helpful hints from a poor historian who spent 3 years in Italy making all the fun spots of Europe on a shoestring. Maybe we can make the 50th anniversary of the Battle of the Bulge! Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 11:45:28 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Warren Thompson Subject: AFTER THE BATTLE It would be very helpful to have the exact postal address for Globe Militaria in Keene NH. -- Warren Thompson ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 11:12:18 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR Subject: Re: Addr: Lost Ships of Guadalcanal > I've seen some of Robert D. Ballard's books before - The fellow > is incredible. It seems that > if there's anything underwater, he can find it. He found the Titanic, > and also um The Bismarck or the Scharnhorst (can't remember which). Hi Steve, It was the Bismark and your right about Ballard. Man, what a job. Wouldn't that be a hoot just cruising around looking for all kind of neat shipwrecks and such on Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute's nickle! I'd do it. > Re After The Battle, I've heard about this magazine, (but have never > read it - is it commonly available in the UK?). They produced a > very good book on the Somme, and several others on WWI, "Then and Now" > type books. Do they do similar for WWII? > > steve baldwin > smb@netmgrs.co.uk After the Battle is published in Britain so you should be able to find it. They have done then and now books on the Battle of the Bulge, Normandy (D-Day) and even the Battle of Britain. They are massive books and a bit on the pricy side so I have never bought one, but they are still in print and available through military book dealers. The magazines do good studies of battlefields, museums and other historic places from WWII. Back issues are available from them too. Seems like I saw an ad for them in the back of a _World War II_ magazine. I can dig around at home and come up with better title and publisher data if anybody is interested. BC me for further info. Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 12:46:19 -0400 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: QUACK Subject: Re: AFTER THE BATTLE After The Battle is handled by Sky Books International out of the NYC area also. All back issues are available but their price has risen over the years. I remember when they were $3.50 each. I don't understand how they can jack up the price on material already on the shelves. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 09:49:55 -0800 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: crjackson@UCDAVIS.UCDAVIS.EDU Subject: Re: Schindler's List In-Reply-To: <9402080551.AA14541@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> It's true that the WWII discussion list has ignored the film, but the Holocaust list has been buzzing with comments on the film; most have been quite positive regarding its accuracy. Christopher R. Jackson, UC Davis On Mon, 7 Feb 1994, John Behrens wrote: > Everyone has been talking about good war movies recently. I finally went > to see Schindler's List last night. Then it occured to me that the film > has been out for about a month, yet no one on this list has brought it up > as a topic of conversation. I thought this was strange because the > Holocaust has not been avoided in the past as a topic. Anyway, I was > wondering what all you historians and history buffs thought of the film. > Was it as historically accurate as it could have been? Did they leave to > much out, or put to much in (3 1/2 hrs.)? I personally thought it was > one of the most powerful films I have ever seen. Surely there is someone > out there that is familiar with this epic story and can give their two > cents worth. Comments? > > John > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 13:32:31 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Ron Babuka Subject: Re: P-47's post WWII In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 8 Feb 1994 07:33:00 EST from Question - were any of the F-47 used operationally in Korea? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 15:04:51 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Doug McCabe Subject: Normandy on the 50th Ohio University Electronic Communication Date: 08-Feb-1994 02:41pm EST To: Remote Addressee ( _MX%"WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU" ) From: Doug McCabe Dept: Library MCCABE Tel No: (614) 593-2715 Subject: Normandy on the 50th An unsubstantiated rumor (which nevertheless rings true like all unsub rumors) has it that French hoteliers cancelled all British reservations, raised their prices, and sat back waiting for rich Americans to fill up their rooms. C'est la guerre. Those of you who still would like to get to the scenes of the ETO may want to wait until September when things will be more quiet, prices lower, and travel easier. Might I humbly suggest using The Netherlands for headquarters: all is within easy driving/flying/train distances to England, France, Belgium, and Germany. (OK, KLM, did I earn my guilder commission for that plug?) While plans are still sketchy, I have a tentative schedule from the American Embassy in The Hague which notes things will begin on 14 September with a memorial service at the American cemetery near Maastricht. (If anyone wants rubbings from stones or markers let me know and I will see they are done: Dennis Sparks - your rubbing will be done at that time.) After the 14th there will be a number of services, memorials, and celebrations right up Hell's Highway to Arnhem. I plan to be at most of these as I will be in Holland from about the 3rd to who knows when. The embassy has promised to keep me up-to-date on events as they firm up and I'll be happy to post these to the List. Anyone wishing to get started now planning a trip and would like a contact in the tourism department in Nijmegen, contact me backchannel. (BTW, it looks like the Ryan Collection will be on display in three locations for the 50th anniversary of MARKET-GARDEN.) Doug McCabe Received: 08-Feb-1994 03:04pm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 14:17:35 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR Subject: Re: Schindler's List > It's true that the WWII discussion list has ignored the film, but the > Holocaust list has been buzzing with comments on the film; most have been > quite positive regarding its accuracy. > > Christopher R. Jackson, UC Davis I guess because I am on the Holocaust list too I didn't notice that we had not discussed it on WWII-L. I have yet to see the film but am anxious yet apprehensive at the same time. I nearly cry just thinking about the Holocaust let alone seeing a film as powerful as this. Criticisms on the other list seem to be highly technical like the Jews speaking in Hebrew rather than Yiddish at certain parts. This would have gone right past me. I would notice uniform details and >from the clips if have seen they did a good job. I thought I was seeing newsreel footage. There was an article in Newsweek about the movie and stills from that article showed an Army officer who's uniform was questionable but the SS ones looked good. Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 12:23:37 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: Ref: Royal Winnepeg Rifles It is debatable whether Canadians had any "extreme distaste for Germans" more than other combatants. However, after repeated murder of Canadian prisoners by the Hitler Jugend formation, an unofficial "no-quarter" attitude did prevail for about a month or so between the two. This attitude waned away when the Canadians became faced with less vicious opponent units. As for the "treatment at Dieppe", that would refer to the Dieppe raid of 1942, during which the Canadians lost 950 dead and over 2000 captured. I myself never came across any particular desire for retaliation for the Dieppe raid. To soldiers then, you won some, you lost some. C'est la guerre... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 12:53:24 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: Schindler's List From all accounts, SCHINDLER'S LIST, is an accurate depiction of Nazi extermination policies. I intend to see it, soon. There is abundant film footage available, of actual concentration camps, filmed right after liberation in 1945. One of the most powerful, is TESTIMONY OF THE CAMPS, filmed at Belsen by the British army. Its producers were prescient enough to anticipate revisionists, in that every person who spoke on camera, camp inmates and liberating soldiers, had his/her name identified for authenticity and future reference. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 15:47:52 EDT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List Comments: Forwarding note of 08 Feb 94 15:46:53 EDT from From: RICHARD KING Subject: Addr: GUADALCANAL SHIPS At the request of one member of our list, I am forward this order information to anyone who may be interested. Richard King *** Forwarding note from RKING --VUNET 02/08/94 15:46 *** Date: 08 Feb 94 15:46:53 EDT From: To: Subject: Addr: GUADALCANAL SHIPS Warren: Here is the information I found from Books in Print: >The Lost Ships of Guadalcanal.< New York: Warner Books, 1993. ISBN 0-446-51636-8 $39.95. Hope you like it. Richard King (RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 10:55:00 PST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Carey Stephens Subject: Re: Schindler's List Keep it in mind that Keneally's book, on which the film is based, is a "novel/history." From: FOXS 4-FEB-1994 15:56 4-FEB-1994 15:56:00.00 To: WAR2 CC: Subj: -Steve Fox- foxs@axe.humboldt.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 19:13:00 PST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: ALCIATIC@AXE.HUMBOLDT.EDU Subject: German H-Bomb??? To Whom it may concern, I am looking for any info I can related to the progross the Nazis were making on atomic bomb development. How close were they really getting?? Were the Japanese doing any of this type of research?? If you can help just post it on the wwii list or send it direct to me at IN%"alciatic@axe.humboldt.edu" Thanks CA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 23:15:30 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: David Rising Subject: Re: Bataan Death March In-Reply-To: <94Feb8.112912est.32858(4)@spectre.uunet.ca> I don't know if you have an A.V. library available, bu t if you do, I seem to recall the documentary "Bataan, the forgotten hell" to be excellent. David Rising ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 06:31:54 GMT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Gudmundur Helgason Subject: Re: German H-Bomb??? In-Reply-To: <9402090314.AA02370@rvik.ismennt.is>; from "ALCIATIC@AXE.HUMBOLDT.EDU" at Feb 8, 94 7:13 pm > > To Whom it may concern, I am looking for any info I can related > to the progross the Nazis were making on atomic bomb development. How > close were they really getting?? Were the Japanese doing any of this > type of research?? If you can help just post it on the wwii list or send > it direct to me at IN%"alciatic@axe.humboldt.edu" > Thanks CA > I recently saw a movie called "the last U-boat" that was supposed to be based on true events. In it an XXI U-boat sailed from Norway on April 15th 1945 towards Japan with two Japanese officers and a lot of Uranium oxide. I find this very unbelieveable as only two XXI actually sailed (as far as I have ever seen) and both returned to the Reich. Anyway in the movie the XXI surrendered in the Atlantic shortly after the war in Europe ended. I have seen somewhere that the Germans were very close and yet in other sources they are supposed to have been very far from it. Dont know. Gudmundur J. Helgason E-mail to: gummihe@ismennt.is ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 03:56:21 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Christopher Morton Subject: Re: German H-Bomb??? In-Reply-To: <9402090634.AA10216@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> from "Gudmundur Helgason" at Feb 9, 94 06:31:54 am > > > > > To Whom it may concern, I am looking for any info I can related > > to the progross the Nazis were making on atomic bomb development. How > > close were they really getting?? Were the Japanese doing any of this > > type of research?? If you can help just post it on the wwii list or send > > it direct to me at IN%"alciatic@axe.humboldt.edu" > > Thanks CA > > > > I recently saw a movie called "the last U-boat" that was > supposed to be based on true events. In it an XXI U-boat sailed from > Norway on April 15th 1945 towards Japan with two Japanese officers and a > lot of Uranium oxide. I find this very unbelieveable as only two XXI > actually sailed (as far as I have ever seen) and both returned to the > Reich. Anyway in the movie the XXI surrendered in the Atlantic shortly > after the war in Europe ended. I believe that WBBM TV (ABC) in Chicago did a story on this some years ago (10-15?). They claimed that when the Germans refused to continue the mission, the Japanese committed suicide and the cargo was jettisoned over the side. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 08:39:36 GMT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Stephen Baldwin Subject: After The Battle > After the Battle is published in Britain so you should be able to > find it. They have done then and now books on the Battle of the > Bulge, Normandy (D-Day) > and even the Battle of Britain. The last one must be a laugh. This is a picture taken in 1940 of the bit of sky where Sir Douglas Bader shot down his first plane. This other modern picture shows how that bit of sky has changed in the last 50 years....they don't make cloud formations like that anymore... smb ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 08:11:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Alan Wild Subject: Re: Crowded Normandy Bill says,... >I had planned to but we just had a baby and she will still be too >young to travel by that time. One idea for those who, like me, always >come up a day late and a dollar short on things like this on the hotel >situation. You might try this idea. If there are no hotels available >or they are too expensive jump on a train and go anywhere, turn around >and come back. If you check the schedules you can time it just right. >Having a Eurail Pass helps too but you can buy the tickets at any >station and the price for last minute trips is the same as if you buy >in advance. >You can get a sleeper if they are not all taken and they are ok. I >always just crashed in 2nd class and made do. Saved a hundred bucks >a night that way on many occasions. You know Bill, that's a good idea. But I'm the type who would probably end up somewhere (no where) after a train ride, and want to explore a bit. Of course that would make me late for whatever I'd planned. It always happens to me. I get interrupted at least twice at work,... while I'm being interrupted! Crisis management. :-/ Al I'm going to have to remember that one though. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ALAN WILD, LAN MGR. FATHER OF 1 TERRESTRIAL VOICE: (401) 792-2611 ACC - LIPPITT - URI AND 1 STILL IN THE WOMB. FAX: (401) 792-5479 KINGSTON, RI 02881 AMERICAN LEGION POST 102 INTERNET: AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 01:22:21 CST Reply-To: salvin@heartland.bradley.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Steve Alvin Subject: Re: P-47's post WWII I was surprised at the number of F-47's still in service in either the National Guard or regular Air Force in the early 1950's. Many books I've read on the Korean War state that the Air Force would have prefered the Jug over the Mustang in the close support role because of its greater firepower and greater reliability of it's radial engine. But, they say, since the Jug was no longer in service it wasn't avaliable. I guess this post brings that argument into question. -- Steve Alvin salvin@heartland.bradley.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 08:01:53 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A." Subject: Re: AFTER THE BATTLE In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of TUE 08 FEB 1994 00:45:28 CST Globe Militaria is located at Box 2019, Keene, NH 03431-2036, phone number 1-603-352-1961. In their last listing they had both After the Battle and Militaria Magazine listed. Please contact them for more information. Once you get on their mailing list, you will receive info from them for the rest of your life (which is good!). ************************************************************************ * Tim A. Scherrer "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of * * Facilities Supervisor your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971 * * WP:816-785-5253 * * HP:816-665-6704 * * ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU * ************************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 10:05:18 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: MR SKIP WILDER Subject: Bataan Death March John, Strongly recommend the following: BATAAN AND BEYOND, by John S. Coleman, Jr., Texas A&M University Press, College Station, TX, 1978, ISBN 0-89096-055-0 Skip ----------------------------------------------------------- | Skip Wilder | | | phsp11a@prodigy.com |"The road to hell is paved | | FAX (703)528-2103 | with good intentions." | | McLean, Virginia, U.S.A. | | ----------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 08:54:38 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A." Subject: Ref: Jefferson Barracks WWII-L Meeting In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of TUE 01 FEB 1994 09:44:35 CST A meeting will be held of the WW-II Discussion List at Jefferson Barracks, Missouri on 30 April and 1 May, 1994. Please forward this information to any other lists or indiviudals who might be interested. Jefferson Barracks: Jefferson Barracks is located on the west bank of the Mississippi River in South St. Louis County, Missouri. The southern portion of the post is still an active Reserve Forces base, with National Guard/ Air National Guard, and Naval Reserve units assigned. The northern most portion of the post is now a park maintained by the St. Louis County Parks Department. Jefferson Barracks was established in 1826 to serve as the site of the first Infantry School of Practice in the U.S., and to replace Fort Bellefontaine as the main training ground for the Army of the West. Although the Infantry School was abandonded in 1828, Jefferson Barracks continued to plat a vital role in the westward expansion and military success of the nation. In the years before the Civil War, troops were g athered at the post to pacify hostile Indian tribes, to protect merchants and emigrants heading west on the various trails, and to establish and garrison other frontier outposts. By the time of the Civil War, nearly ever reigment of the U.S. Army had been stationed, at least in part, at Jefferson Barracks. The barracks were disestablished in 1946. The Event: The Gateway Military Historical Society is sponcering the 1994 WWII Weekend at Jefferson Barracks on 30 April and 1 May. The event is to include WWII Battle reenactment, WWII living history campsites, displays of WWII hardware, a militaria show and sale, and on Saturday night, a USO style show. Schedule of events (approximate): 30 April 10am: park opens, militaria show at Grant Pavilion opens, living history displays in reenactor campsites open noon-1pm: first reenactment battle (Stable-House-Gift Shop Area) 2:30-3pm: second reenactment battle 5pm: militaria show closes, living history displays close 7pm:(estimated): USO Show and Dance, Jefferson Barracks post mess hall 11pm: USO show ends 1 May 10am: Park opens, living history campsites open, militaria show and sale opens noon-1pm: battle reenactment 2:30-3pm: possible battle reenactment (depending upon how many reenactors are left) 5pm: event closes, militaria show closes The reenacting units that display include German/Commonwealth/American. A large number of Allied vehicles are usually present. The past two years has also had a Stuart tank, which is used in the battle scenario. The Stuart has not yet been confirmed. Approximately 100 reenactor from a dozen states attend this event. The living history campsites usually portray a typical bivoac site of the soldiers the reenactors are portraying. They usually include sldiers eating authentic food, and using authentic or reproduction gear, making the campsites smell and look as real as possible. The militaria show and sale is held in the Grant Pavilion, which is about the size of a basketball court. The vendors generally have good wares since the reenactors are there. There typically is an admission price of about $5 to enter the show and sale. The USO Show and Dance is being held in a new location, the post old mess hall. In the past, a live big band has performed, however this past year a DJ playing 40's music provided the entertainment. It has no t been confirmed yet as to the entertainment. It lasts from 7pm -11pm. Admission with the big band cost $6 and was free for reenactors. Last year, the event was free. Depending upon what the entertainment is this year, there maybe a similar fee as in the past or it may be free. Directions to the mess hall can be obtained at the reenactment area. WWII-L meeting: The 11th Panzer Divison, WWIIHRS will be hosting the get together. The unit Commander, Oberleutnant George Krupa is glad to help out. The 11th Panzer area will be the muster area. Generally we are camped just to the west of the three building that make up the battlefield area. Just ask any reenactor where the 11th is located, and you should get good directions. I suggest that people meet at 11am, since we will be bsuy with the first battle starting at noon. The event is located in a county park, so please dress for the weather. Food along the hot dog/burger variety is available at the event. I suggest that blankets be brought to watch the battle since there is no seating available. Directions: Anyone traveling into the St Louis area I suggest using the I-270-255 loop around the city. JB is located on the west bank of the Mississippi near the Jefferson Barracks bridge of I-255. Do not let the terms I-255 and I-270 confuse you--it is the same road. The same road is called tow different numbers--east of I-55 in south county it is I-255, west of I-55 it is I-270, however this is the same highway. Take the Telegraph Road exit from I-270/I-255. This is the second exit west of the bridge. Take Telegraph Road north for 1.25 miles until you came to a Y in the road---veer to to the right road, which is Kingston Road. Follow Kingston Road for 1.1 miles. You should reach a point where Kingston veers to the left and becomes Broadway Street. At this juncture, there is a street to the right called CCC. Take this street and you should come to the gate of Jefferson Barracks. Follow this street for a short distance and take the first left. After this turn, you are in the battle area, which should be on your right near the stone buildings. Parking should be available on the grass, or in a lot furthe r down the road after it veers to the right. There are three entrances to Jefferson Barracks. The route I have described is the third and last entrance to the Park. Do not let the previous two signs on Telegraph and Kingston confuse you. The first leads to the reserve base, the second to the cemetary. The third one, at the joining of Broadway and Kingston is the correct entrance. I will send a second portion later today describing the billeting/campin options. I am the point of contact for this, so please contact me for more details. TAS ************************************************************************ * Tim A. Scherrer "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of * * Facilities Supervisor your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971 * * WP:816-785-5253 * * HP:816-665-6704 * * ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU * ************************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 11:11:29 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: GERMAN 101/102 LAB Subject: Re: Ref: Jefferson Barracks WWII-L Meeting In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of WED 09 FEB 1994 09:54:38 EST Does anyone on the net know if the Jefferson barracks is the same location of a famous incident at the start of the Civil War? I am not sure of the date, but 5 regiments of German Turners surrounded and took prisoner the ENTIRE Missouri militia (approximately 700 men). As far as I can see, that single action deprived the Copperhead Missouri govt of its military force and effectively prevented the secessionists from occupying the junction of the Missouri & Mississippi rivers. Dale Lally St. Lawrence University dlally@stlawu.bitnet ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 13:48:00 CET Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Peter de Lange Subject: Re: Ref : Royal Winnepeg Rifles Tim wrote a story about Canadians who strapped a german ss officer on the front of a leading tank in attack. The way I red the story it was a Canadian "invention" and a warcrime. I do not want to say that it was good what they did, but here in Holland we had the expression "paying someone back with his own money" and this was exact what the Canadians did. On 10 Mai 1940 the German Airborne troops that invaded the "Waalhaven" AFB used the local Colonel as POW on the same way to surrender all the troops on the field. On 10 Mai 1940 the German special troops used civilians strapped on the front of there boats to cross the river Maas between Netherland and Belgium as part of their attack on the Belgium fort Ebenhaezer (Were this the Brandenburgers????) On 11 and 12 Mai the SS used POW as shield while attacking the "Grebbe". This donot mean that all the german troops were criminals, but there was a big difference between Wehrmacht and SS soldiers. Also a Razzia by Wehrmacht soldiers was something else than a Razzia by SS or "Grune Polizei". I know, all this do not make good the Canadian behaviour, but as some others mentioned before, fighting against the germans, special fighting against the SS makes it understandeble and of a quite different dimension and can you blame someone for fighting back and using the same arms??? Yes , the germans can! On 10 Mai 1940 between 04.00 and 04.30 their was a big dogfight over AFB "de Kooi" between 9 x Messerschmitt Bf-109 and 8 x Fokker D-21. 2 Bf-109 were shot down against 0 D-21. One 109 disappeared in the Waddenzee the other made a wheel-up landing on the airfield, the german officer was taken prisoner. His shouting words against the Dutch pilot who downed him were very clear for the german way of thinking. He was furious that the Dutch were shooting back on him, a first class war-crime. The german was send to England as POW together with the major part of the german airborne division. Later they were send to Canada and spend there their wartime. The Dutch pilot sailed in 1941 for England and became Spitfire pilot. After the war they met again in Germany and this time they had a nice tolk,they met also their both families and became close friends. Let that be the way we discuss wwii. Peter de Lange ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 11:16:22 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A." Subject: Ref: WWII-L Meeting-Jefferson Barracks, Part 2 In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of TUE 01 FEB 1994 09:44:35 CST This is the second psoting for information regarding the WWII-L meeting to be held at Jefferson Barracks, Missouri on 30 April-1 May, in conjunction with the WWII History days held at the park. Off-base food: On Telegraph Road between I-255 and the Jefferson Barracks entrance there is a Hardees and Jack-in-the-Box. South of I-255 on Telegraph Road there is a wide variety of fast food, bar and grill type places, and finer resturants. These are about a mile or so south of I-255. There also are grocery stores in this area. A second area for food would be Lindbergh Blvd near the I-55 junction. This is easily accessed from I-255 heading west by taking the Lindberg exit west. There is a mall in this area, and many choices. From I-55 take the Lindbergh exit either east or west and you are in the middle of it. Camping: Camping is an option many reenactors choose, and anyone interested is more than welcome to colocate with the 11th Panzer site. There is a men's and women's restroom located about 50' from our normal site (assuming we set up where we have). There is also a public shower facility within walking distance, however my experience is that the building is too cold to be of use. A couple of basic guidlines for those who want to camp. Please do not set up before the living history sites close at 5pm. Neon orange camping gear does not lend itself to historical authenticity, and the unit you set up with will probably be heckled as "Farbes" (reenacting term for someone incorect) or the new politically correct term--"Historically challenged". After 5pm is fine, as several reenactors may have unathentic camping gear which will be set up then as well. Please coordinate with the unti to insure you aren;t in a vehicle parking site, or worse, driving area. Most campsites will have a fire, and you are more than welcome to join any campfire, as most reeanctors will enjoy the company. Expect to hear some wonderful "war stories". Please strike your campsites before 10am, to insure historical authenticity for the next days event. Please police up any unauthentic items, and please insure you do not leave any pepsi cans, or cheetos bags laying around "Farbing Up" someone's campsite. Alcohol is permitted, however do not bring it out until after nightfall. The USO show usually has a bar, however BYOB is permitted and recommended. Billeting Off Base: I recommend the hotels located near Lindbergh Blvd and I-55 junction. They are reasonably close, nice and there are plenty of eating places nearby. To get to these hotels, from I-255 heading west, take the Lindbergh west exit (the one after Telegraph), follow it past the mall and the hotels are near the I-55 junction. Coming from I-255/270 take I-55 north to the first exit, which is Lindbergh. Go east or west depending upon where your hotel is. I recommend using the Oak Grove Inn, on Bi-State Industrial Drive, which is just west of the I-55/Linbergh Junction to the south. I stayed there 1 weekend a month for 2 years from drills when it was a Super 8 motel. There is a Bob Evans and Ponderosa within walking distance of the hotel. The rates are $38.44 for a single, and $42.95 for a double. For reservations, call 314-894-9449. Another hotel next to the Oak Grove in is the Motel 6. Directions are the same for the Oak Grove Inn. It's rates are $33.84 for a single, and $40.61 for a double. For reservations call 314-892-3364. East of the I-55/Lindbergh Junction is the Holiday Inn. It's rates are $70.50 for a single, and $80.50 for a double room. For reservations call 314-892-3600. Another hotel is the Holiday Inn South. It is located 1 mile south of the I-55/I-270/255 junction south on I-55. Take the Butler Hill exit, and head east--it should be on the right. Rates are $76 for a single room. For reservations call 314-894-0700. Other options include hotels at the I-44/Lindbergh Junction. From Jefferson Barracks, take I-255/270 west until you reach the I-44 junction. Head east on I-44 toward the city until you reach I-44. The Days Inn is located 3 blocks south of the I-44/Lindbergh junction. It costs $35 for a single and $40 for a double. For reservations call 314-821-3000. There is also a Howard Johnson's at 314-821-3950 and the Stafford House at 314-821-4300 in this area. One final option is the Drury in, located 5 minutes south of the I-55/I-270/255 junction at the junction of I-55 and US 141. For reservations, call 314-296-9600. Other instructions: I will be receiving a packet of information from the event corrdinator, and I will post any follow-up changes. Anybody got a VCR-TV combination? I have a copy of Kelly's Heroes. If someone has a generator, we could watch it in our campsite--not authentic, but fun. Be sure to bring plety of warm clothing if you are camping. It generall is greatcoat weather by nightfall, even if the temperature is in the 60's during the day. I can send highlighted maps to anyone interested. Please contact me direct for any questions or additonal information. I am looking forward to seeing you there. TAS ************************************************************************ * Tim A. Scherrer "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of * * Facilities Supervisor your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971 * * WP:816-785-5253 * * HP:816-665-6704 * * ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU * ************************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 08:58:34 -0800 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: crjackson@UCDAVIS.UCDAVIS.EDU Subject: Re: German H-Bomb??? In-Reply-To: <9402090315.AA15214@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> An excellent book on the subject came out a couple of years ago: Mark Walker, German National Socialism and the Quest for Nuclear Power, 1939-1949 (Cambridge UP, 1989). The short answer is "not very close." The scientists in Germany were probably as good as the scientists in the west, but for a variety of reasons, the atomic project was down-graded in terms of priorities during the war (in early 1942), and they never gained the resources necessary to go ahead and make a stab at such a huge project. More recently the transcript of post-war discussions between captured German scientists has been published. Immediately after Hiroshima these physicists, gathered together under detention in Britain, were told of the bomb. Their conversations were secretly recorded; it makes for interesting eavesdropping. Part of it was printed last year(or perhaps earlier) in the New York Review of Books. David Irving wrote a book on the German atomic bomb project, but you shouldn't trust David Irving. Christopher R. Jackson, UC Davis On Tue, 8 Feb 1994 ALCIATIC@AXE.HUMBOLDT.EDU wrote: > To Whom it may concern, I am looking for any info I can related > to the progross the Nazis were making on atomic bomb development. How > close were they really getting?? Were the Japanese doing any of this > type of research?? If you can help just post it on the wwii list or send > it direct to me at IN%"alciatic@axe.humboldt.edu" > Thanks CA > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 18:29:48 +0100 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Emmanuel Gustin Subject: Re: German H-Bomb??? On Tue, 8 Feb 1994 ALCIATIC@AXE.HUMBOLDT.EDU wrote: > To Whom it may concern, I am looking for any info I can related > to the progross the Nazis were making on atomic bomb development. How > close were they really getting?? Were the Japanese doing any of this > type of research?? If you can help just post it on the wwii list or send > it direct to me at IN%"alciatic@axe.humboldt.edu" German scientists were still experimenting with their first nuclear reactor, with heavy water as moderator and natural uranium. The Japanese were trying to enrich uranium with a technique (thermal gaseous diffusion) that did not work. Both efforts were relatively small-scale and never near producing a bomb. BTW, the nuclear fission bomb is the A-bomb; the hydrogen fusion H-bomb is a post-war development. "The making of the atomic bomb" by Rhodes has a lot of info (it is a thick book, too). Emmanuel Gustin ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 13:26:28 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Warren Thompson Subject: New book on war I received today a brochure for the following title: Lawrence Freedman, ed. WAR. AN OXFORD READER. March 1994, Oxford University Press. @ $13.95 paper. This is the first of a series. Contents as follows: The Experience of War; The Causes of War; War and the Military Establishment; The Ethics of War; Strategy; Total War and the Great Powers; Limited war and developing Countries. -- Warren Thompson LEBANON VALLEY COLLEGE Annville PA 17003 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 12:48:45 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Christopher Morton Subject: Re: Ref: Jefferson Barracks WWII-L Meeting In-Reply-To: <9402091712.AA01834@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> from "GERMAN 101/102 LAB" at Feb 9, 94 11:11:29 am > > Does anyone on the net know if the Jefferson barracks is the same > location of a famous incident at the start of the Civil War? I am > not sure of the date, but 5 regiments of German Turners surrounded > and took prisoner the ENTIRE Missouri militia (approximately 700 > men). As far as I can see, that single action deprived the Copperhead > Missouri govt of its military force and effectively prevented the > secessionists from occupying the junction of the Missouri & Mississippi > rivers. For a MORE interesting story, research Calloway County, MO and its secession to form a KINGDOM, and subsequent invasion and garrisoning by a German speaking army of occupation.... :) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 11:44:12 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: German H-Bomb??? Though the Germans did not get very far along with their A-bomb, it was still a worrisome project to the Allies at the time. Two military strikes against German atomic facilities finished them. The Nazi heavy water (deuterium oxide) intended for use in an A-bomb, was being processed at vemork, near Oslo, Norway. On the night of 19 November 1942, two gliders containing 38 uniformed members of the British Parachute Regiment landed near the plant. The gliders crashed on landing, killing half the soldiers. The rest of the soldiers, in full uniform, 19 of them, were shot by the germans next day. An expedition by Special Operations Executive agents was more successful, and the Norske Hydro Plant was dynamited, delaying the heavy water project and not much work was ever done there further. There'sa good account of this raid in SLIS AGAINST THE ATOM, by Knut Haukelid. (that's SKIS, of course). Several books about the SOE also describe the enterprise. Then, on 15 March, 1945, American bomber aircraft were sent to flatten a thorium ore processing plant at Oranienburg,at the direct reqquest of MGen Leslie Groves, head of the "Manhatten Project". "Just to be sure..." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 16:44:03 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Jacques tremblay Subject: British Army Dear members of the list, I am trying to identify a work that is considered as "the" official military history of the British army during WWII. Can someone help? Thank you in advance. Jacques Tremblay Chicoutimi, Quebec Canada. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 17:38:06 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Ken Koester Subject: Re: German H-Bomb??? In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 8 Feb 1994 19:13:00 PST from On Tue, 8 Feb 1994 19:13:00 PST said: > To Whom it may concern, I am looking for any info I can related >to the progross the Nazis were making on atomic bomb development. How >close were they really getting?? Were the Japanese doing any of this >type of research?? If you can help just post it on the wwii list or send >it direct to me at IN%"alciatic@axe.humboldt.edu" > Thanks CA A review in =Science= a year ago of a book about Heisenberg & the bomb effort leads me to conclude they never would have made it: when news of Hiroshima was given to the Germans (now detained by the British), the explanation that Heisenberg ingeniously cooked up on the spot (recorded secretly by his jailors) shows he had missed the boat on several important points about what happens in the chain reaction. He was still thinking in terms of tons of uranium instead of kilos, to boot, so I doubt the Germans would have been able to deliver the thing even had they been able to build it. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 19:04:34 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Kevin Brown Subject: Re: Death Notice I am going to try to get to Normandy this fall - don't want to fight the crowds! Plus I have heard scuttlebutt that the French government is going to restrict access to the beaches to veterans only during the ceremonies. K.B. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 18:58:42 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Kevin Brown Subject: Re: Addr: Lost Ships of ... Richard - I have "Lost Ships of Guadalcanal", saw the TV documentary that complements it also. I must say the book is better than the TV show. Aside from the great photography, the TV show was not very well put together and tended to give a false impression of the Guadalcanal campaign. Several co-workers who also saw it commented to me that they got the impression that Guadalcanal was a "walkover" for the U.S. Anyone who knows the subject realizes that was not the case. Also, there are still several ships in Ironbottom that remain to be discovered. The planes are there also, the book just didn't cover them as it's emphasis is on the ships. K.B. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 22:38:15 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: MR SKIP WILDER Subject: German H-Bomb??? Probably the best book on the German a-bomb effort is HEISENBERG'S WAR - THE SECRET HISTORY OF THE GERMAN BOMB, by Thomas Powers, Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 1993, ISBN 0-394-51411-4. It tells the story of Werner Heisenberg (of Uncertainty Principle fame) who headed Hitler's a-bomb project during WWII. The author tries to make the case that Heisenberg purposely misled the Nazis, thus effectively sabotaging the a-bomb effort. ----------------------------------------------------------- | Skip Wilder | | | phsp11a@prodigy.com |"The road to hell is paved | | FAX (703)528-2103 | with good intentions." | | McLean, Virginia, U.S.A. | | ----------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 07:05:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: USAAF 9-10 FEB 44 COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES WEDNESDAY, 9 FEBRUARY TO THURSDAY, 10 FEBRUARY 1944 FTP SITES 1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf 2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/ wwii_chronology AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT: A-20, Douglas Havoc A-24, Douglas Dauntless A-36, North American Apache B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress B-24, Consolidated Liberator B-25, North American Mitchell B-26, Martin Marauder P-38, Lockheed Lightning P-39, Bell Airacobra P-40, Curtiss P-51, North American Mustang P-51, North American Mustang WEDNESDAY, 9 FEBRUARY 1944 CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, B-25s, P-51s, P-38s, P-40s, and A-36s carry out 75 attack sorties against Seinnyinba, bivouac and supply areas in the Mogaung-Loilaw area, bivouac and buildings at Pyindaw, camps at Kumnyen and near Maingkwan and Shingban, and storage area and bivouac on the Mogaung-Kamaing road near Sawnghka; a bridge over the Namtamng River near Maingkwan also is destroyed. CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 16 P-40s strafe and bomb large barracks and oil storage at Chefang and pound town areas of Homun and Mangshih. 2 B-25s demolish a radio station SW of Haiphong, French Indochina. EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO) TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 133 B-26s bomb V-weapon sites in coastal France, marshalling yards at Tergnier, France and targets of opportunity in the area. This marks the first of the IX Bomber Command raids on marshalling yards. HQ 344th Bombardment Group (Medium) arrives at Stansted, England from the US. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Weather grounds all aircraft with exception of 1 P-38 which flies a weather reconnaissance mission. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s and B-26s, in close support to US Fifth Army forces, attack motor transport and troop concentrations in the Campoleone area while A-20s blast another troop concentration to the W; P-40s hit Cisterna di Latina and gun positions; A-36s and P-40s pound concentration points of a counterattack against the Fifth Army beachhead in the Anzio area, strike along the main Fifth Army front, and attack the villages of Piedimonte and Aquino and gun positions near Cassino and Ausonia. HQ 87th Fighter Wing transfers from Nouvion, Algeria to Caserta, Italy. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): AAF aircraft from the Gilbert Islands attack targets in the Marshall Islands, i.e., A-24s from Makin Island along with supporting P-40s, bomb and strafe oil storage and gun positions on Jaluit Atoll; during a dusk-to-dawn operation on 9/10 Feb B-24s operating at intervals from Tarawa Atoll maintain strikes against Wotje Atoll and Taroa Island in Maloelap Atoll. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, P-40s and US Navy (USN) fighters cover a USN dive-bomber attack on Vunakanau Airfield, scoring many hits on AA positions, buildings, and runways; 24 B-24s with USN fighter escort follow with a strike on the same target hitting runways and revetment area; 19 B-24s. with 20 P-38s supporting, hit Tobera Airfield, thoroughly saturating the runway. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): On New Guinea, the occupation of the Huon Peninsula is completed as US and Australian forces meet SE of Saidor; A-20s pound the village of Mindiri. B-24s bomb Amboina, Ambon Island and Lautem, Timor Island. THURSDAY, 10 FEBRUARY 1944 CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Thailand, 9 B-24s bomb the Ban Mah arsenal at Bangkok and Don Maung Airfield immediately to the N. In Burma, 3 B-24s bomb Prome and Akyab, 9 B-25s pound Chiradan and Godusara, and 16 P-51s hit barracks and a road at Chishidu. CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 8 P-40s bomb Wanling and vicinity while 3 others fly top cover; the target area, a supply staging and training center, is heavily damaged; 5 B-24s during the night of 9/10 Feb mine the mouth of the Yangtze River; B-25s on sea sweeps claim 2 freighters sunk near Hainan Island and SW of Hong Kong; 12 P-51s and P-38s strafe boats and parked aircraft in the Chiuchiang area; 12 P-40s strafe power boats and sampans along the Yangtze River from Puchi to Yoyang. EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 216: 141 of 169 B-17s hit the industrial area at Brunswick, Germany and 2 hit targets of opportunity; they claim 42-30-61 Luftwaffe aircraft; 29 B-17s are lost, 1 is damaged beyond repair and 52 damaged; casualties are 2 KIA, 3 WIA and 295 MIA; escort is provided by 64 P-38s, 357 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s and 45 Ninth Air Force P-51s; they claim 56-1-40 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 0-0-2 on the ground; 5 P-38s and 4 P-47s are lost, 1 P-38 and 1 P-51 are damaged beyond repair and 6 P-47s are damaged; casualties are 1 KIA, 1 WIA and 9 MIA. 27 of 81 B-24s hit the Gilze-Rijen Airfield, The Netherlands; dense contrails and frost prevent most aircraft from attacking; 4 B-24s are damaged beyond repair; casualties are 26 KIA and 14 WIA; escort is provided by 91 P-47s without loss. Mission 217: In a CARPETBAGGER mission, 5 of 5 B-17s drop 260 bundles of leaflets on Rennes, Caen, Rouen and Amiens, France and Antwerp, Belgium at 2111-2145 hours without loss. HQ 364th Fighter Group and 383d, 384th and 385th Fighter Squadrons arrive at Honington, England from the US with P-38J's; first mission is 2 Mar. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 114 B-26s attack V-weapon sites in coastal France, airfields at Poix and Beauvais/Tille, a bridge at Le Crotoy, and a coastal battery N of the Conch River. 496th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 344th Bombardment Group (Medium), arrives at Stansted, England from the US with B-26s; first mission is 29 Feb. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Italy, B-17s bomb Albano Laziale, Cisterna di Latina and Cecina; B-24s strike Campoleone and Velletri; P-38s bomb and strafe the Tivoli, Vicovaro, and Monterotondo area; P-47s fly uneventful sweeps over Cisterna di Roma and Albano; numerous heavy bombers are forced to abort operations because of unsafe flying conditions. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): Light and medium bomber missions are aborted because of bad weather. In Italy, P-40s and A-36s support an unsuccessful attempt of the US Fifth Army's 1st Infantry Division to stem an attack in the Carroceto area; P-47s fail to locate their target (Sora) and drop bombs on targets of opportunity. 347th Fighter Squadron, 350th Fighter Group, based on Corsica with P-39s, sends a detachment to Capodichino, Italy. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): AAF aircraft from Gilbert Island bases attack targets in the Marshall Islands, i.e., B-25s from Tarawa Atoll hit Wotje and Maloelap Atolls; 9 B-24s from Abemama Island, sent to bomb a weather and radio station on Rongelap Island, abort due to a fuel leak in the lead B-24; an attempt to bomb Jaluit Atoll during the return flight is unsuccessful. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, P-40s and USN fighters cover a USN dive-bomber attack on Vunakanau Airfield; B-25s with fighter escort bomb Vunakanau later in the day; Tobera is pounded by 21 B-24s supported by P-38s and USN fighters; the Allied aircraft claim 30+ aircraft downed in the New Britain area. P-39s hit buildings at Bonis and barges in Matchin Bay on Bougainville Island and near Green Island. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): 50+ B-24s bomb Boram Airfield and harbor at Wewak. 6 B-25s and a B-24 hit Momote Airfield on Los Negros Island and jetties at Manus Island. P-39s strafe targets of opportunity during a sweep over wide areas of New Britain Island. The junction of Allied forces from Arawe and Cape Gloucester marks the completion of the campaign for the W end of New Britain Island; occasional missions will still be flown in the area, but most will be restricted to barge sweeps and patrols. SOURCES: AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1 COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF 1982 THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973 THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2 Jack McKillop USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service) 1955-59 ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jack McKillop | Those who have long enjoyed such | | Bellcore | privileges as we enjoy forget in | | Piscataway, NJ USA | time that men have died to win | | jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com | them. FDR | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 07:28:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: 10 FEB 42: SS NORMANDIE CAPSIZES On this date (10 Feb) 52 years ago, the former French ocean liner SS NORMANDIE, capsized at a pier on the Hudson River in New York City. Details are listed below. I was almost 6-years old at the time but do not remember it but it was covered in all New York City newspapers at the time including photographs on the front page. What about security during World War II? The answer is simple. How can you hide a ship over 1,000 feet (305m) long lying on it's starboard side at a New York City pier when it an be viewed by anyone passing by? The military must have gone nuts about security for this event but there was nothing they could do about it. The following is from Volume IV of the DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN NAVAL FIGHTING SHIPS, US Navy Department, 1969. LAFAYETTE, Transport Number 53 (AP-53) (ex SS NORMANDIE) Displacment: 53,400 tons (estimated) Length: 1,029 feet 4 inches (313.74 m) Beam: 117 feet 9 inches (35.9 m) Draft: 37 feet 6 inches (11.5 m) Speed: 29 knots French luxury liner SS NORMANDIE was laid down in 1931 by Compagnie General Transatlantique, St. Nazarire, France; launched 29 Oct 32; and completed her first Atlantic crossing in 1935. Interned in New York City at the beginning of World War II, NORMANDIE was seized on 12 Dec 41; formally requistioned by the Maritime Commission on 16 Dec 41; transferred to the US Navy on 24 Dec 41; and named LAFAYETTE and designated Transport Number 53 (AP-53). A contract for her conversion to a troop transport was awarded to Robins Dry Dock & Repair Co., a subsidiary of Todd Shipyards, Inc., 27 Dec 41. During conversion she caught fire at 1430 hours local on 9 Feb 42 and capsized at 0245 hours local on 10 Feb 42. After one of the largest salvage operations in history, LAFAYETTE was righted 7 Aug 43. She was classified Transport and Aircraft Ferry Number 4 (APV-4) on 15 Sep 43 and placed in drydock in Oct 43. However, extensive damage to her hull, deterioration of her machinery, and the necessity for employing manpower on other critical war products prevented resumption of the conversion program. Her hull remained in the custody of the US Navy until her name was struck from the Navy list 11 Oct 45. She was sold as scrap 3 Oct 46 to Lipsett, Inc., New York City. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 04:45:39 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: German H-Bomb??? Surely. the most effective "sabotaging" of the Nazi A-bomb project was done by agents of Special Operations Executive in 1942, when they destroyed the heavy-water plant in Norway. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 05:20:17 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: ADMIN: Intro to WWII-L (no change since last posting) Larry, I notice there seem to be few messages using the "flag" system you describe in your intro to the list. Is it just a matter of people forgetting, or has the requirement for flags been dropped? Regards. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 08:24:07 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: David Spencer Subject: Re: British Army I am trying to identify a work that is considered as "the" official military history of the British army during WWII. The British Official History is published by Her Majesty's Stationery Office. It runs many volumes in several series. There are 6 volumes in Grand Strategy series, one on Norway, 6 (actually 8, as some "volumes" are in "parts") in The Mediterranean and the Middle East series, 5 in the War against Japan series, one on The War in France and Flanders, 1939-40, and 2 in the Victory in the West series. There are also series on British Intelligence (covering the ULTRA operation), on the RAF, on the War at Sea and on foreign affairs. The Grand Strategy and Mediterranean series are detailed and excellent. I am now reading the first volumes in the War against Japan series; so far it too is quite good in reporting a thoroughly dismal performance. The Victory in the West series is poor. But for the nice maps, it's ignorable. My impression is that the Army decided that the other series should fill the traditional role of Official Histories, but that the NW Europe volumes were likely to be read by non-specialists. So it's at the level of a good one-volume popular history published before ULTRA was revealed. I have not been able to find a copy of the France and Flanders volume or the Norway volume. The books are expensive; dealers usually get US$60 to US$100 per volume -- more for a complete series. HMSO has representatives in the US and Canada. I don't know who the Canadian rep is; you could try writing HMSO at Her Majesty's Stationery Office St Crispins Duke Street Norwich NR3 1PD England When I ordered books, the US rep was Bernan Associates 10033-F M.L. King Highway Lanham, Maryland 20706-4391 You can also find used volumes from Military Bookman in New York, Jack Faber in Millwood, NY, and Peter L Jackson in Toronto. You have to go to a dealer to get the out of print volumes, and you will surely get any in-print volumes these dealers have available faster than you would get them from HMSO. However, their availability is spotty and the dealers get a hefty premium over the HMSO list. The London military booksellers generally have these in stock, also at hefty premiums. I have a list of London dealers that publish catalogs if anyone's interested. It's a little old, as I get to London often enough now that I don't need to order. dhs spencer@panix.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 05:32:23 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: 10 FEB 42: SS NORMANDIE CAPSIZES As I recall, there were allegations that the NORMANDIE was deliberately set afire by saboteurs in Nazi pay. Irish sympathizers were prime suspects, I think. However, it would be best to further research this, for facts, rather than to accept yet another "conspiracy" theory. Probably the info is available. I'll have to look into this. Regards. 1 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 09:08:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: 19 Feb 45 - Iwo Jima FROM THE NAVY NEWS SERVICE ----------------------------------------------------------------- Navy News Service - NAVNEWS BY EMAIL ----------------------------------------------------------------- NAVY NEWS SERVICE - 09 Feb 94 - NAVNEWS 008/94 TABLE OF CONTENTS FOR NAVNEWS 008/94 Around the Fleet NNS097. This Week in the Navy: Feb. 19, 1945 -USN- NNS097. This Week in the Navy: Feb. 19, 1945 -- The Marines were landed on Iwo Jima. It took 26 days of bitter fighting to secure the island. ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jack McKillop | Those who have long enjoyed such | | Bellcore | privileges as we enjoy forget in | | Piscataway, NJ USA | time that men have died to win | | jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com | them. FDR | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 09:19:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: SS NORMANDIE >As I recall, there were allegations that the NORMANDIE was deliberately >set afire by saboteurs in Nazi pay. Irish sympathizers were prime suspects, >I think. However, it would be best to further research this, for facts, >rather than to accept yet another "conspiracy" theory. Probably the info >is available. I'll have to look into this. >Regards. To the best of my memory (Which is not the greatest anymore!), a fire was started by a welder on 9 Feb and since the ship was dead, there were no pumps to put out the fire. And by the time the NYFD got there, they had a raging, uncontrollable fire on their hands. The NYFD pumped a lot of water into her and this was the cause of her capsizing. As far as Irish sympathizers were concerned, as an Irish-American I think that is typical (censored)! In Feb 42, the US was at war with the Axis powers and I have never heard any sentiments, stories, facts, etc. in the Irish-American community for sabotage against the US. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 06:35:17 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: SS NORMANDIE A welder... Far more believable. Thanks for the info. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 08:44:27 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Lundstrom Subject: Re: Addr: Lost Ships of ... In-Reply-To: <9402100100.AA10153@csd4.csd.uwm.edu> from "Kevin Brown" at Feb 9, 94 06:58:42 pm I agree with Kevin that the National Geographic special presented Guadalcanal as an `inevitable' Allied victory. The script pretty much went just where Dr. Ballard was looking and said very little about the carrier battles, for example. It is often forgotten that the total surprise achieved on 7 August 1942 by the landing force was entirely fortuitous. In light of Japanese air search patterns from Tulagi experienced during the Battle of the Coral Sea, the USN expected to be sighted on the 5th or certainly the 6th and have to fight their way in. Unknown to them, the Japanese cut their searches down from 650-700 miles to 400 miles. On 6 August a band of bad weather effectively hindered the Japanese search. A second surprise to me in researching Guadalcanal was that the Allies almost ran out of aircraft in the South Pacific in mid October 1942. Another battleship bombardment as occurred on 14 October 1942 could easily have crippled the CACTUS Air Force, with very little to send in from the nearest air bases. Thirdly, the escape of the damaged ENTERPRISE on 26 October 1942 from the Battle of Santa Cruz was terrifically important. Losing at Guadalcanal would not have cost the Allies the Pacific War, but it could have provided powerful arguments for those pushing the Europe-first strategy. John Lundstrom jl@csd4.csd.uwm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 09:51:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "W. C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" Subject: Re: Addr: Lost Ships of ... >I agree with Kevin that the National Geographic special presented >Guadalcanal as an `inevitable' Allied victory. The script pretty much went >just where Dr. Ballard was looking and said very little about the carrier >battles, for example. Geez...I sure didn't get that message from the video. What I did see for the first time, however, was that the Japanese troops were in bad shape towards the end of the campaign. What portions of the presentation gave the impression of the 'inevitability' of the allied victory? Bill N93774@vms.cis.pitt.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 10:16:01 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Warren Thompson Subject: Aerial bombing and morality Subscribers may be interested in this title: Stephen Garrett. ETHICS AND AIRPOWER IN WORLD WAR II: THE BRITISH BOMBING OF GERMAN CITIES. St Martin's, 1993. ISBN: 0-2312-08683-0 @ $45.00 list ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 10:10:38 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Warren Thompson Subject: Another new title on war Subscribers may be interested in this: Daniel Pick. WAR MACHINE: THE RATIONALIZATION OF SLAUGHTER IN THE MODERN AGE. Yale Univ Press, 1993. ISBN: 0-300-05417-3 hardbound -- Warren Thompson ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 10:44:49 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Larry & Kim Jewell Subject: TROUBLE: West Point! > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- > Connected to usma6.usma.edu: > >>> RCPT To: > <<< 550 /usr6/is8206/.forward: line 0: 4335... Never heard of this userid! > 550 ... User unknown Someone at the Point, please pass this to your wizards! I don't want do delete anyone since this seems to be a transient problem but I'm getting a mailbox full of error messages from this account. Thanks, Larry J ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 17:30:25 +0100 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Emmanuel Gustin Subject: Re: German H-Bomb??? On Wed, 9 Feb 1994, Sidney Allinson wrote: > Though the Germans did not get very far along with their A-bomb, it was > still a worrisome project to the Allies at the time. > Two military strikes against German atomic facilities finished them. > The Nazi heavy water (deuterium oxide) intended for use in an A-bomb, Small correction: Heavy water, or any other moderator, is not used in a A-bomb. It is only used in a nuclear reactor (The U.S. used purified graphite for this purpose), but this was directly relevant to the A-bomb project because running a reactor gives important data and produces plutonium. The Vemork plant had also been bombed at another time. Emmanuel Gustin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 13:38:03 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Michael Cotter Subject: Re: British Army In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 10 Feb 1994 08:24:07 -0500 from An added note: The series title of the official British army history of WWII is: History of the Second World War. (If you were to search it by title (and not specify "series" title) in some libraries, you might not find all volumes of the series.) Each sub-series has its own title, e. g. British Foreign Policy in the Second World War; Victory in the West; Grand Strategy; The Mediterranean and Middle East; The War at Sea; Civil Affairs and Military Government . . . .;Casualties and Medical Statistics; The War in France and Flanders; Economic Blockade; The War against Japan; and Studies of Overseas Supply (all of the titles in our library). Also, The War in France and Flanders was published in 1953, so that is one reason that you might not have located a reference to it. I did not locate the Norway volume in our library's catalog. Hope this helps. Michael Cotter Documents Librarian Joyner Library East Carolina University Greenville NC 27858 919/757-6533 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 15:53:42 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Crane Conrad LTC Subject: Re: TROUBLE: West Point! >> ----- Transcript of session follows ----- >> Connected to usma6.usma.edu: >> >>> RCPT To: >> <<< 550 /usr6/is8206/.forward: line 0: 4335... Never heard of this userid! >> 550 ... User unknown > >Someone at the Point, please pass this to your wizards! I don't want do >delete anyone since this seems to be a transient problem but I'm getting >a mailbox full of error messages from this account. > >Thanks, Larry J Larry, That address is for CPT Stephen Ingalls here. I have passed word on to his department about the problem, since he is not registering on the system at this location either. There must be some network problem with his computer. Con Crane ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 1994 09:11:23 +1100 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Foster Subject: Re: Addr: Lost Ships of ... In-Reply-To: Your message dated "Thu, 10 Feb 1994 09:51:00 -0500 (EST)" <01H8QQC5F01U8WWG8M@cc.newcastle.edu.au> >I agree with Kevin that the National Geographic special presented >Guadalcanal as an `inevitable' Allied victory. The script pretty much went >just where Dr. Ballard was looking and said very little about the carrier >battles, for example. >Geez...I sure didn't get that message from the video............. Me either.The message I received was the US troops were extremely lucky due to unexplainable tactics and blunders by the Japanese commander(s) which seemed to depart from everything they had learned and brought them success up to this point.This hapened not once but on seperate occasions.It seemed like the commander risked losing face after the first failure and just bashed on regardless to get back his and his troops pride.Again the message was the men on the island were very very lucky in addition to very very brave. My 2 cents worth John Bill N93774@vms.cis.pitt.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 18:49:53 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Larry & Kim Jewell Subject: ARC: WWII files at NAVPALIB The following is a list of files available from the U.S. Navy's new ftp site, ftp.ncts.navy.mil. (These are the files of direct interest to this list, there's a lot more there for those who want them. LWJ) ----------------------------------------------------------------- NAVY & MARINE CORPS WORLD WAR II COMMEMORATIVE COMMITTEE A service of Navy Chief of Information Office (703)695-3161/DSN 225-3161 ----------------------------------------------------------------- INDEX INDEX OF WORLD WAR II FILES (Includes subdirectory name, file name and short description of file contents.) NEWS News Anzio.txt Text of message from Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Frank B. Kelso II commemorating the Jan. 22 50th anniversary of Allied landings at Anziio and Nettuno near Rome. Taranews.txt Nov. 20-23, 1993, is 50th anniversary of Battle for Tarawa, the Japanese stronghold in the Gilbert Islands. 2nd Marine Division victory in the face of great odds. At Tarawa, the Navy-Marine Corps team developed the methods of amphibious assault used thereafter to defeat Japan. Marshall.txt Jan. 3l, 1994, is 50th anniversary of Marshall Islands campaign. 4th Marine Division and Army 7th Division seize Japanese soil for first time in Pacific war. EVENTS Commemorative Events WW2event.txt Lists reunions, exhibits, airshows, etc. in commemoration of World War II. PROGRAM Commemorative Community Program WhatItIs.txt A description of the World War II Commemorative Community Program and how to qualify for its benefits. Aplicatn.txt The form that must be completed and mailed to the Navy-Marine Corps World War II Commemorative Committee. Ideas.txt A list (not all-inclusive) of the kinds of events that qualify a group to be a Commemorative Community. FACTS Fact Sheets 63rdBees.txt Unit history of 63rd Seabee battalion. Served at Guadalcanal and Emirau islands. ArmGuard.txt Sailors assigned to man guns on merchant vessels. Blimps.txt Lighter-than-air contribution to anit-sub, minesweeping and rescue operations. Bougnvil.txt Battle of Bougainville (Nov. 1943) isolates Japanese at Rabaul; wins the Solomon Islands. Convoys.txt North Russia convoy runs during Battle of the Atlantic. Severe weather and U-boat threats. CVE.txt Escort carriers' anti-submarine missions, battle group and amphibious landing support. Kamikaze.txt Development and effectiveness of the Japanese suicide pilot force. Lantbttl.txt Battle of the Atlantic (1939-1945). U.S. and Brittain beat the German U-boats. Magic.txt Navy intel cracks the Japanese naval code, assisting Pacific wins at Midway, Tarawa. Sidebar on death of Yamamoto, due to Magic. Marshlls.txt Jan. 3l, 1994, is 50th anniversary of Marshall Islands campaign. 4th Marine Division and Army 7th Division seize Japanese soil for first time in Pacific war. MCinWW2.txt Personnel strength, combat losses, aces, weapons, boats, aircraft, events and more. MCLant.txt Summary of Marine service in the Atlantic, Europe and Africa. MCRaider.txt Development, operations of the Marine Raider battalions (special missions forces). MCWomen.txt Women in the Marine Corps -- founding, rates, leaders. Navajos.txt The story of Marine Navajo Code Talkers, who created a code that was never broken. NavinWW2.txt Overview of Navy's two-ocean victory. Info on battles, hardware, personnel strength. Seabee.txt History of WWII Naval Construction Battalions with founding, duties, some demographics. Subs.txt Exploits of "the Silent Service," conditions aboard submarines, sub triumphs and losses. Tarawa.txt Nov. 20-23, 1943. 2nd Div. Marines prevail in the Gilbert Islands. V12Prgm.txt Navy's officer training program, designed to increase the ranks. Prominent participants. WAVES.txt Brief history of women's service; info on numbers, training, jobs, uniforms, housing. YamaDies.txt Sidebar to American Magic. Navy intel causes death of Japanese fleet commander Yamamoto. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Navy & Marine Corps World War II Commemorative Committee Navy Office of Information (CHINFO) The Pentagon, Room 2E352 Washington, DC 20350-1200 ----------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 20:23:30 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: CAPT Tim Taylor USN Subject: Re: ARC: WWII files at NAVPALIB In-Reply-To: <9402102356.AA28110@gate.ncts.navy.mil> On Thu, 10 Feb 1994, Larry & Kim Jewell wrote: > The following is a list of files available from the U.S. Navy's new ftp site, > ftp.ncts.navy.mil. > > (These are the files of direct interest to this list, there's a lot more > there for those who want them. LWJ) [ long listing deleted ] And it's also worth noting that a web server overlays the same hierarchy of files. If you have access to a web client, you can get to our home page (and ultimately to all our files) through this URL: http://www.ncts.navy.mil/navpalib/.www/welcome.html CAPT Tim Taylor, USN Email: Tim.Taylor@ncts.navy.mil Navy Office of Information Phone: 703-695-2078 DSN 225-2078 Washington, DC 20350-1200 Fax: 703-697-2767 DSN 227-2767 - Please send NavNews email to navnews@opnav-emh.navy.mil - ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 22:14:20 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: cuf@AOL.COM Subject: Computer & health The Computer User Family (CUF) is concerned about the health problem associated with computers. Video Display Terminals, emit UV and ELF radiation and may cause cancer, immune system irregularities, miscarriages and eye fatigue. Computer noise from fans, disk and CD drives is also becoming a source of anxiety, stress and general discomfort . We usually don't realize how loud our computers are: 50dB and more. These problems should be dealt with and add-ons should be provided for present computers to avoid putting us at risks. Some safe screens and quiet power supplies are coming out but they are marginal and prices are prohibitive. Meanwhile the general guidelines for the users are: 1. Position yourself approximately 22 inches to 28 inches (arm's length) from the screen and four feet from the sides and rear of other terminals. 2. Eliminate sources of glare and lower light levels in the room. Don't sit facing a bright window. If necessary, use screen hoods, glare shields over the screen or wear anti-UV/anti-glare glasses. 3. Put a noise absorbing mat under your computer. Pull your computer away from the wall or any hard surface that reflects noise and vibration back to you. 4. Rest occasionally during periods of intense concentration. Closing your eyes helps. 5. Turn off the VDT when not in use. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 1994 07:22:05 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Kevin Kamphaus Subject: Readers Digest Story I meant to send this a couple of weeks ago. In the Feb issue of Readers Digest there is a story called "Ray Hamleys Bravest Mission". Hamley was a RAF bomber and returns to one of the cities in Germany (Kleve I think) he knows for sure he was responsible for bombing. There is much more to the story than this but I don't want to spoil it. It is a very touching story in the end. Worth the read. Kevin Kamphaus usr5066a@tsol.uc.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 1994 09:34:13 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Joe Barone Subject: TRV: The Kissing Sailor The Newport Daily News (RI) has a weekly column called the "Grist Mill". It's written by Leonard Panaggio who spends his time rummaging through local archives and writes about interesting bits of history of the area. In his February 9 installment, Panaggio received a copy of a local girl's essay concerning famous people who had graduated from her grade school. One of these people was apparently the "kissing sailor" whose photo was made famous by Life magazine and can always be found in American History textbooks. I now quote from the article: "[Katie Ritchie, the schoolgirl] learned that George Mendonsa's claim to fame is that he is the kissing sailor on the Life magazine cover showing a Times Square scene on V-J Day. "The way he tells the story, he served on the destroyer, USS The Sullivans, and was attending Radio City Music Hall that day. The program was stopped to announce the end of the war, and everyone was so excited they ran to Times Square, wrote Katie. There Mendonsa kissed a nurse and was photographed by the famous Alfred Eisenstaedt. Mendonsa's future wife, Rita, was in the distance. A search was made in 1980 to identify the sailor. He identified himself by a tattoo 'G.M.' on his right arm, by his hair line, and by a lump on his arm that could be seen in a close up. 'Even though Life magazine never officially said that George Mendonsa is the Kissing Sailor, I think he really is. It's nice to have met a celebrity,' the young student concluded." -- Joe Barone m1b@ssd.ray.com Trading uniforms with the Germans I can understand, but buying this Tiger is going too far! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 1994 11:44:09 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Steven VEST Subject: Re: TRV: The Kissing Sailor In-Reply-To: <9402111512.AA03813@solar.nova.edu> Joe: You may not be aware that there is a certain amount of dispute as to the exact identity of the couple in the "kissing sailor" picture. The magazine has apparently had numerous people write to them claiming to be one of the people in the picture. I'm not sure it has ever been (or can be resolved). Just more trivia. ==========================vest@alpha.acast.nova.ed=========================== = Steven Vest: Head, Off Campus Lib. Services: Nova University, Ft. Ldl, FL = ="It seems I woke up in the bathtub, in an undignified position. My scepter= =and my holy henchmen gone." Dave Gordon, I dreamed I was Cardinal Richelieu= ================No statements made here reflect Nova University============== ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 1994 11:48:30 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: LBSCOTT@ECUVM1.BITNET Subject: Re: ARC: WWII files at NAVPALIB In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 11 Feb 94 08:55:56 EST from WWW or World wide webb is a gopher server. It is on Mosaic and sunsite among ot her places. Enjoy. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 1994 10:51:14 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: CAPT Tim Taylor USN Subject: Re: ARC: WWII files at NAVPALIB In-Reply-To: <9402111659.AA28695@gate.ncts.navy.mil> On Fri, 11 Feb 1994 LBSCOTT%ECUVM1.BITNET@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu wrote: > WWW or World wide webb is a gopher server. It is on Mosaic and sunsite among ot > her places. Enjoy. Need to be careful with the jargon here. Both WWW and gopher are client-server schemes. The server lives with data and responds to inquiries from the client, which lives with the user. The Navy Public Affairs Library employs a WWW server and an FTP server but not a gopher server. The only requirement for your client program is that it must know how to interact properly with our WWW or FTP servers: For WWW: http://www.ncts.navy.mil/navpalib/.www/welcome.html For anonymous FTP: log in to ftp.ncts.navy.mil then cd to pub/navpalib Anyone with questions or problems concerning NAVPALIB should send email to navpalib@opnav-emh.navy.mil. We will help you make it work. Thank you. CAPT Tim Taylor, USN Email: Tim.Taylor@ncts.navy.mil Navy Office of Information Phone: 703-695-2078 DSN 225-2078 Washington, DC 20350-1200 Fax: 703-697-2767 DSN 227-2767 - Please send NavNews email to navnews@opnav-emh.navy.mil - ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 1994 13:34:21 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Ronald A Wilson Subject: Request for Information Text item: Text_1 Does anyone know of a gopher with a line into the Pentagon? I'm an AF Reserve CMSgt and want to communicate with the office of the Chief Master Sergeant of the AF. I found, through the World Health Organization (I think), a list-serv for government/military but have not been able to access it. Are there offices at the Pentagon on any of the civil nets? Appreciate any help or advice.... Ron Wilson ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 1994 13:04:34 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Bob Smart Subject: Re: Army Green Book Series question In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 04 Feb 94 12:58:09 -0500. <9402042052.AA20812@beetle.hq.Verdix.COM> > Bob, > I have a suggestion for you. Rather than get BREAKOUT AND PURSUIT, buy > Martin Blumenson's new version THE BATTLE OF THE GENERALS. It just came out. > He told me that this version would be more critical of Allied leadership, and > it surely is. It is published by William Morrow. It does not have the tactic al > detail of the Green Book, but I still highly recommend it. > > LTC Con Crane > USMA thanks for the recommendation. One thing I like about the Green books is the Maps. There are so few books with good maps with them. I understand why, it raises the cost of publishing substantialy. Especially when done as full color foldouts as the Green books do. I will look forBlemensons book. I guess it is easier to be critical when the subject of the criticism isn't the one paying the bills :-) Bob Smart 6+" of snow on top of 1" of ice, still snowing and another storm heading this way on Sunday. Good time to settle in the basement and catch up on e-mail. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 1994 14:50:00 -0800 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Jim Benn Subject: Re: Schindler's List In-Reply-To: <9402081513.AA11272@agaviion.agfx.com> I haven't seen the movie yet; plan to this weekend if the snow lets up. I do recommend the book of the same title, by Thomas Kenneally. He's a great author, and the story is incredible and well told. I don't know if its in the movie, but one memorable chapter was set near the end of the war, when Schindler and his workers were jointly sabatoging the war materials he was contracted to build. Many of his workers died of natural causes, and the description of a Jewish funeral ceremony, for Jews who died of natural causes in Nazi Germany, 1945, has always stayed with me as a powerful symbol of what Schindler did. As a half-German, Schindler also represents the too-small minority of Germans who held onto their honor and goodness for all Germans. *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*> Jim Benn [jrb@agaviion.agfx.com] <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=* |-=[ Auto-Graphics, Inc. ]=[ /~~) /~~) ]=-| |-=[ 8 West Main Street ]=[ (__(_UTO - (__/RAPHICS ]=-| |-=[ Niantic, CT 06357 ]=[ .___/ ]=-| *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*> PHONE: 800-733-6939 = FAX: 203-691-0183 <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 1994 15:01:00 -0800 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Jim Benn Subject: D-Day Anniversary In-Reply-To: <9402081518.AA11306@agaviion.agfx.com> Yes, I,m planning a trip to Europe in October 1994 which includes Normandy and Arnhem. Any recommendations for historical sites, museums, etc.? *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*> Jim Benn [jrb@agaviion.agfx.com] <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=* |-=[ Auto-Graphics, Inc. ]=[ /~~) /~~) ]=-| |-=[ 8 West Main Street ]=[ (__(_UTO - (__/RAPHICS ]=-| |-=[ Niantic, CT 06357 ]=[ .___/ ]=-| *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*> PHONE: 800-733-6939 = FAX: 203-691-0183 <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 1994 23:29:39 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Kevin Brown Subject: Re: Addr: Lost Ships... Re the "inevitability of Japanese victory". It has been a while since I've seen the video. What sticks in my mind was the coverage of the land fighting, esp. Edson's Ridge. As I recall the fighting was a lot tougher than the impression given in the video. Kevin Brown ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 1994 06:41:11 +22311624 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Monte Turner Subject: Re: D-Day Anniversary In-Reply-To: <01H8RZ44RP4Y9PML0S@KU9000.CC.UKANS.EDU> On Fri, 11 Feb 1994, Jim Benn wrote: > Yes, I,m planning a trip to Europe in October 1994 which includes > Normandy and Arnhem. Any recommendations for historical sites, museums, > etc.? > Jim, The paratroopers museam in Arnhem is worth going through, though it is small. I stayed with friends there and possibly the most fascinating part of my visit was the guided tour by an elder who was an eyewitness to the events. A startling number of homeowners have elected to leave the marks of that war a half century ago. i.e. There were two holes in my friend's home's exterior of substantial size. Another interesting item pointed out by my aspect made by my tourguide was two sites where kids had been injured along the river when they had unearthed, in 1987, unexploded gernades or shells. Have fun, Monte Turner ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 1994 10:18:25 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: GEORGE BAUER Organization: Rockhurst College; Kansas City, MO Subject: Re: D-Day Anniversary I'd be interested in recommendations for museums, historical sites, in Europe this spring too. george bauer ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 1994 11:30:59 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: David Rising Subject: Re: D-Day Anniversary In-Reply-To: On Fri, 11 Feb 1994, Jim Benn wrote: > Yes, I,m planning a trip to Europe in October 1994 which includes > Normandy and Arnhem. Any recommendations for historical sites, museums, > etc.? Obviously see all the beaches & don't miss Point Du Hoc. There are various museums along the way (one called _Normandy D-Day Museum_ if I remember correctly. Also make sure to visit the American Military Cemetary. If you are at all interested in any other periods of history, you should also visit the museum in Bayeux and see the original tapestry. In Arnhem, I found the most interesting was just walking around the bridges and surrounding area rather than visiting the museum. Make sure you have at least a day and lots of film though. David Rising ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 1994 15:34:01 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Jonah Triebwasser, Esq." Subject: Re: D-Day Anniversary In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of FRI 11 FEB 1994 02:01:00 EST > Yes, I,m planning a trip to Europe in October 1994 which includes > Normandy and Arnhem. Any recommendations for historical sites, museums, > etc.? > > > > > > > *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*> Jim Benn [jrb@agaviion.agfx.com] <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=* > |-=[ Auto-Graphics, Inc. ]=[ /~~) /~~) ]=-| > |-=[ 8 West Main Street ]=[ (__(_UTO - (__/RAPHICS ]=-| > |-=[ Niantic, CT 06357 ]=[ .___/ ]=-| > *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*> PHONE: 800-733-6939 = FAX: 203-691-0183 <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=* Jim - If you get to London, try the Cabinet War Rooms and a trip to Chartwell (Churchill's home.) Both played a substantial role in WWII. The Imperial War Museum has a Blitz simulation and is excellent over all - Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor, Marist College, Poughkeepsie, New York (30" of snow so far and counting!) jzml@maristb.marist.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 1994 15:45:27 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Sloan Subject: Re: D-Day Anniversary Jim Benn was asking for information on museums and places to visit in Normandy. The recent issue of the Army Historian carries an excellent account of a professional "staff ride" conducted to Normandy by officers from Ft Benning under direction of retired General Smith, who was a participant i nthe landing. The article mentions a great many places to visit and why. John Sloan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 1994 15:27:58 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: "CARL WERNKE (TCWERNC@VCCSCENT)" Subject: Re: GEN: Re: A General Douglas MacArthur quote X-To: WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu To: Multiple recipients of list WWII-L (WWII-L@UBVM.BITNET Larry and Kim, You recently requested a General MacArthur quote. I obtained this quote from the last page of Gen.MacArthur's autobiography *Reminiscences*, which stated: On May 12, 1962, I was awarded the Sylvanus Thayer Medal, the highest honor of the United States Military Academy. That day, I reviewed the Corps of Cadets on the Plain at West Point, lunched with them at the mess hall, and responded to the presentation. The General concluded his presentation with the following comments: The shadows are lengthening for me. The twilight is here. My days of old have vanished tone and tint; they have gone glimmering through the dreams of things that were. Their memory is one of wondrous beauty, watered by tears, and coaxed and caressed by the smiles of yesterday. I listen vainly, but with thirsty ear, for the witching melody of faint bugles blowing reveille, of far drums beating the long roll. In my dreams I hear again the crash of guns, the rattle of musketry, the strange mornful mutter of the battlefield. But in the evening of my memory, always I come back to West Point. Always there echoes and re-echoes in my ears - Duty - Honor - Country. Today marks my final roll call with you. But I want you to know that when I cross the river my last conscious thoughts will be of the Corps - and the Corps - and the Corps. Larry, I'm glad to see that you are back in "battery" again. May you always have "Fair winds and following seas." Another poignant quote was obtained from *The Years of MacArthur,Volume Two, 1941-1945*,author, D.Clayton James, Houghton Mifflin Co., 1975. This statement was made by the General on the quarter-deck of the U.S.S.Missouri (BB-63) , 2 Sept 1945, which had been arranged for him to broadcst a radio message to the world. A portion of his broadcast follows: Men since the beginning of time have sought peace . . . Military alliances, balances of power, leagues of nations, all in turn failed, leaving the only path to be by way of the crucible of war. We have had our last chance. If we do not now devise some greater and more equitable system, Armageddon will be at our door. The problem basically is theological and involves a spiritual recrudescence and improvement of human character that will synchronize with our almost matchless advances in science, art, literature and all material and culture developments of the past two thousand years. It must be of the spirit if we are to save the flesh. Carl Wernke TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 1994 13:43:52 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Crane Conrad LTC Subject: Re: GEN: Re: A General Douglas MacArthur quote Carl and Larry, If you are interested, that MacArthur speech at West Point is available on tape from the Accociation of Graduates here. That is the same speech that Paul Fussell uses in WARTIME as an example of military bombast with no redeeming value or inspiration. I sometimes wonder if he does not really understand the military culture, though he admits he writes from the perspective of a "pissed-off infantryman," or if we just don't understand him. LTC Con Crane USMA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 1994 19:29:00 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: MacArthur's speech. In-Reply-To: <199402131851.AA05117@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu> from "Crane Conrad LTC" at F I remember when I arrived at the Academy on 1 July 1964, how that speech set the tenor of the place. Bracing there on (Old) Central Area, you could almost hear the echoes of it, still. MacArthur really evoked Academy-spawned professional service -- maybe for all time. Fussell apparently does not understand the call to Duty and other martial ideals. Such ignorance/insensitivity often produces the ingratitude/betrayal we have seen so often in our history. Considering the inevitability of some one nation/culture gaining absolute strategic hegemony -- and soon -- such an attitude is as self-dooming as it is unworthy. Lou Coatney, x1968 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 1994 07:17:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: USAAF 11-13 FEB 44 COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES FRIDAY, 11 FEBRUARY 1944 FTP SITES 1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf 2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/ wwii_chronology AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT: A-20, Douglas Havoc A-24, Douglas Dauntless A-36, North American Apache B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress B-24, Consolidated Liberator B-25, North American Mitchell B-26, Martin Marauder C-47, Douglas Skytrain L-5, Stinson Sentinel P-38, Lockheed Lightning P-39, Bell Airacobra P-40, Curtiss P-47, Republic Thunderbolt P-51, North American Mustang SBD, Douglas Dauntless (USN) TBF, Grumman Avenger (USN) AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 77th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 28th Bombardment Group (Composite), moves from Amchitka Island to Attu Island with B-25s. CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 10 A-36s and P-51s hit the supply area at Sawnghka; 12 A-36s and P-51s and a single B-25 bomb a supply and bivouac area at Pyindaw; 8 P-51s hit a road junction near Mogaung and nearby supply area; 8 P-51s and P-40s on armed reconnaissance strafe a large river steamer and a launch in the Mandalay-Shwebo area. CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 12 P-38s knock out 1 bridge and damage another at Sheklung; 6 B-25s, escorted by 20 US and Chinese P-40s, bomb the storage area at Kai Tek Airfield; the P-40s claim 5 Japanese fighters shot down; Japanese aircraft bomb and strafe Namyung putting the field out of use for several days. EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 218: 94 of 201 B-24s bomb the Siracourt V-weapon site in France with PFF equipment; the remaining aircraft were assigned individual targets without PFF and were unable to locate their targets; 1 B-24 is lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 17 damaged; casualties are 1 KIA, 1 WIA and 10 MIA; escort is provided by 85 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47's and 41 P-51s without loss. The primary target for 223 B-17s is the marshalling yard at Frankfurt, Germany; 157 hit the primary, 32 hit Ludwigshafen, 19 hit Saarbrucken and 4 hit other targets of opportunity; they claim 3-0-2 Luftwaffe aircraft; 5 B-17s are lost, 3 damaged beyond repair and 124 damaged; casualties are 1 KIA, 26 WIA and 51 MIA; escort is provided by 82 P-38s, 486 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47's and 38 Ninth Air Force P-51s; they claim 30-2-28 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 2-1-4 on the ground; 8 P-38s, 4 P-47's and 2 P-51s are lost, 2 P-47's and 1 P-51 are damaged beyond repair and 2 P-38s and 4 P-47's are damaged; casualties are 14 MIA. Mission 219: 5 of 5 B-17s drop 250 bundles of leaflets on Ghent, Brussels and Antwerp, Belgium at 2118-2146 hours without loss. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Most of the 139 B-26s dispatched to attack NOBALL (V-weapon) targets in N France are recalled because of bad weather; 35 manage to bomb the marshalling yard at Amiens. 495th and 497th Bombardment Squadrons (Medium), 344th Bombardment Group (Medium), arrives at Stansted, England from the US with B-26s; first mission is 29 Feb. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): HQ 460th Bombardment Group (Heavy) and 760th, 761st, 762d and 763d Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy) arrive at Spinazzola, Italy from the US with B-24s; first mission is 19 Mar. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): P-40s and P-39s dive-bomb and strafe hangar, airfield installations and gun positions on Mille Atoll. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, P-40s join US Navy (USN) fighters in covering a USN dive-bomber strike on Wunapope; 22 B-25s, escorted by USN fighters, pound Vunakanau Airfield; Tobera Airfield is bombed by 15 B-24s with P-38 and USN fighter escort. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): About 50 B-24s pound the airfield at Kavieng, New Ireland Island, and 2 bomb Garove Island. 7 B-24s bomb Kendari Airfield, Celebes Island and Dili, Timor Island. P-40s and Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) aircraft pound Japanese forces still remaining in the Saidor, New Guinea area. Fighter sweeps and armed reconnaissance continue over wide areas of the SWPA. 25th Liaison Squadron, 512th Photographic Wing (Provisional), arrives at Lae, New Guinea from Brisbane, Australia with L-5s. SATURDAY, 12 FEBRUARY 1944 CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 8 P-40s hit the town of Ransa and motor convoys S of Sumprabum; 40 P-51s and A-36s attack bivouacs at Walawbum, bivouac and motor pool at Padaw, storage area at the road junction near Chishidu and the town of Chishidu; 30+ P-51s and B-25s hit camps between Tsumhpawng Ga and Walawbum, storage area and motor pool S of Kamaing, motor convoy on the Myitkyina-Sumprabum road, the town of Namting and bridges at Meza and Kanni. 59th Fighter Squadron, 33d Fighter Group, arrives at Karachi, India from Italy; they will be equipped with P-47Ds. CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 9 P-40s pound the warehouse area at Wanling, Burma. In French Indochina, 6 P-40s bomb the barracks at Vinh and strafe Dong Cuong Airfield, railroad yards at Cam Duong, and sampans at Phu Tho; 5 B-25s on a sea sweep in the Gulf of Tonkin claim 2 trawlers sunk and hit shore targets of opportunity SW of Haiphong; a single B-25 damages a bridge at Ha Trung. 24 P-38s, P-51s, and P-40s intercept 25 Japanese fighters near Suichwan, China, claiming 7 shot down; 2 US fighters are lost. EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 220: 97 of 99 B-24s hit the V-weapon site at St Pol/Siracourt, France; 29 B-24s are damaged; no losses or casualties; escort is provided by 84 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47's and 41 P-51s; no claims, losses or casualties. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): HQ 370th Fighter Group and 401st, 402d and 485th Fighter Squadrons arrive at Aldermaston, England from the US with P-47's; the unit will transition to P-38s and fly their first mission on 1 May. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Italy, B-17s and B-24s strike troop concentrations and highways in the Cecina area and near Lake Nemi. Bad weather causes all other missions to abort. HQ 459th Bombardment Group (Heavy) and 756th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy) arrive at Giulia Airfield, Italy from the US with B-24s; first mission is 2 Mar. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s attack gun positions at Campoleone and the surrounding area; B-26s hit Cecina; A-36s hit aircraft and trucks on the landing ground and in the area near Fahrica di Rorila, attack troops in the area, bomb gun positions SW of Roccasecca, and hit the towns of Fondi and Lanuvio; P-40s attack Gisterna di Roma, Sezze station and road junction, Cori and gun positions NW of Atina. HQ 61st Troop Carrier Group and 14th and 15th Troop Carrier Squadrons begin a movement from Sciacca, Sicily to England with C-47s. HQ 62d Troop Carrier Group and 7th Troop Carrier Squadron move from Ponte Olivo, Sicily to Brindisi, Italy with C-47s. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-25s from Tarawa Atoll and Abemama Island hit Wotje and Maloelap Atolls; A-24s and P-39s from Makin Island bomb and strafe Mille Atoll. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 23 B-25s, with US Navy (USN) fighters in support, bomb Tobera Airfield; 21 B-24s, escorted by P-39s and USN fighters, pound Vunakanau Airfield; P-40s join USN fighters in covering a USN dive-bomber strike on Lakunai. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): Brigadier General Carl W Connell resumes command of the V Air Force Services Command. About 50 A-20s blast occupied areas SE of Wewak, New Guinea. SUNDAY, 13 FEBRUARY 1944 AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS ZONE OF INTERIOR: The Combined Chiefs of Staff (CCS) accepts revision of the Combined Bomber Offensive (CBO) Plan. The targets are reduced to a number that can be decisively attacked and target lists are revised to keep up with the effort of the Germans to relocate vital industrial plants. Disruption of communication lines and reduction of the Luftwaffe are high priority aims included in the CCS directive on this date. CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 6 P-51s and a B-25 damage a road bridge and 2 warehouses in the Wuntho area; 32 P-51s and A-36s hit the supply area and radio installations S of Kamaing and blast bivouacs S of Walawbum; 18 P-51s hit the road and railroad junction N of Sahmaw, a bivouac N of Kamaing and a camp between Tsumhpawng Ga and Walawbum; during the night, 16 B-24s bomb Heho Airfield. CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In French Indochina, 23 B-24s pound railroad shops at Vinh; 4 B-25s hit a convoy E of Foochow, China claiming 3 freighters and a transport sunk; 4 other B-25s damage 2 vessels off SW Hainan Island and bomb dock, railroad, and oil dump at Bakli on Hainan Island; 6 P-40s bomb and strafe barracks and hangars at Phu Tho and strafe freight cars at Yen Bay and Suo Ha. EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 221: V-weapon sites in the Pas de Calais area of France are hit; 266 of 277 B-17s hit 12 sites and 138 of 192 B-24s hit 5 sites; 12 B-24s hit targets of opportunity; they claim 0-1-0 Luftwaffe aircraft; 4 B-17s are lost, 2 B-17s and 2 B-24s are damaged beyond repair, and 74 B-17s and 57 B-24s are damaged; casualties are 7 KIA, 23 WIA and 24 MIA. Escort is provided by 189 P-47s and 43 P-51s; they claim 6-1-4 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 0-0-4 on the ground; 1 P-51 is lost and 4 P-47s damaged; no casualties. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 182 B-26s attack V-weapon sites in the coastal area of France; 16 others bomb secondary targets in the area. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Operations are restricted to weather reconnaissance. 757th and 758th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), 459th Bombardment Group (Heavy), arrive at Giulia Airfield, Italy from the US with B-24s; first mission is 2 Mar. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-26s bomb the Bucine viaduct; B-25s and A-20s support Fifth Army forces N and E of the Anzio beachhead, blasting an ammunition dump and troop and vehicle concentrations; P-40 and A-36 fighter-bombers give support in the same areas, hitting troop concentrations, a railway tunnel, buildings, vehicles, a supply dump, and gun positions. Units moving from Sicily to England: HQ 52d Troop Carrier Wing from Agrigento; HQ 314th Troop Carrier Group and 32d Troop Carrier Squadron from Castelvetrano with C-47s. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): During the night of 13/14 Feb, B-24s from Tarawa Atoll operating individually at intervals, bomb Wotje and Mille Atolls and Taroa Island in Maloelap Atoll. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 20 B-25s bomb Tobera Airfield and 23 B-24s bomb Lakunai Airfield; both forces are escorted by fighters; P-40s and USN fighters escort USN SBDs and TBFs dive-bombing runway and AA positions at Vunakanau. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): 24 A-20s hit Aitape, New Guinea. 70+ B-25s pound Momote Airfield on Los Negros Island and 35 B-24s bomb Kavieng Airfield on New Ireland Island. SOURCES: AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1 COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF 1982 THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973 THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2 Jack McKillop USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service) 1955-59 ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jack McKillop | Those who have long enjoyed such | | Bellcore | privileges as we enjoy forget in | | Piscataway, NJ USA | time that men have died to win | | jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com | them. FDR | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 1994 07:25:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: USAAF 14 FEB 44 COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES MONDAY, 14 FEBRUARY 1944 FTP SITES 1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf 2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/ wwii_chronology AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT: A-20, Douglas Havoc A-36, North American Apache B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress B-24, Consolidated Liberator B-25, North American Mitchell F-5, Lockheed Lightning F-7, Consolidated Liberator P-40, Curtiss P-47, Republic Thunderbolt P-51, North American Mustang TBF, Grumman Avenger (USN) CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): P-51s and A-36s carry out 70+ sorties against a variety of targets in Burma; targets include the supply area at Shingban, a truck convoy N of Maingkwan, supply dumps and motor transport in the Kamaing area, a bivouac near Mogaung, troop and vehicle concentrations between Mogaung and Kamaing, artillery positions at Laawn Ga, and railroad station and warehouses at Lundaung. EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO): General Dwight D Eisenhower establishes HQ Supreme Headquarters Allied Expeditionary Force (SHAEF). Chief of Staff, Supreme Allied Commander (COSSAC) comes under control of SHAEF. STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 222: 48 P-47s are dispatched to Eindhoven Airfield in the Netherlands; the primary target is overcast and 46 of 48 hit Gilze-Rijen Airfield without loss. 22d Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, 7th Photographic Group (Reconnaissance) based at Mount Farm, England, sends a detachment to operate from Attlebridge, England with F-5s. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Italy, B-17s attack the marshalling yards at Modena, Brescia, and Verona and several targets of opportunity including the airfield and Piaggio aircraft factory at Pontedera and railroad bridges and lines at Parma, Sassuolo, Rubiera, and S of Vicenza; B-17s and escorting P-47s claim 20 fighters shot down; B-24s bomb the marshalling yards at Mantua, Verona, Massa Lombarda, Fenara and Arezzo, and targets of opportunity including the Pisa and Prato marshalling yards, airfields at Pisa and Pontedera, and road-rail junction near Vaiano. 759th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 459th Bombardment Group (Heavy), arrives at Giulia Airfield from the US with B-24s; first mission is 2 Mar. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): The Twelfth Air Force loses several of its operational units, the 12th Bombardment Group (Medium) and 33d and 81st Fighter Groups being moved to India, and the 52d Troop Carrier Wing and its 4 groups being sent to England. In Italy, B-25s bomb the Perugia marshalling yard, A-20's hit Grottaferrata; A-36s attack guns in the Pontecorvo area, railway yards at Civita Castellana and Frosinone, motor transport near Genzano di Roma, airfield at Furbara, and Ferentino railway station, some of the missions being in direct support of the US Fifth Army main front; P-40s bomb and strafe troop concentrations N and E of the Anzio beachhead, scoring hits on tanks, motor transport and guns near Cisterna di Roma, Cori and Rocca di Papa; P-47s hit Colleferro and dump at Valmontone; P-40s score direct hits on a vessel and fuel dump in the Rogoznica area. 92d Fighter Squadron, 81st Fighter Group, begins a movement from Capodichino, Italy to India. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): 40+ B-24s from the 11th and 90th Bombardment Groups (Heavy), flying out of Makin Island and Tarawa Atoll strike Ponape Island in the first Seventh Air Force raid on the Caroline Islands; 2 of the B-24s hit the alternate target of Emidj Island. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, B-24s bomb the Rabaul area in a diversionary strike while US Navy (USN) TBFs lay mines in Simpson Harbor; 30 escorted B-25s pound Vunakanau Airfield while 28 B-24s, also with escort, bomb Rapopo Airfield; P-40s and USN fighters escort a USN dive-bomber raid on Tobera gun positions and airfield revetments; 4 B-25s also bomb Tobera. On Bougainville Island weather clears, permitting the first attacks, by 19 B-25s, on Kara and Kahili, in recent weeks; P-39s attack Puriata River bridges. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): A-20s with P-40 support, bomb and strafe Dagua airfield, New Guinea, destroying and damaging 20+ aircraft. 80+ plus B-25s pound Momote Airfield on Los Negros Island. 40+ B-24s bomb the airfields at Kavieng and Panapai on New Ireland Island. 20th Combat Mapping Squadron, 6th Photographic Group, moves from Port Moresby to Nadzab, New Guinea with F-7s; first mission is 5 Apr. SOURCES: AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1 COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF 1982 THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973 THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2 Jack McKillop USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service) 1955-59 ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jack McKillop | Those who have long enjoyed such | | Bellcore | privileges as we enjoy forget in | | Piscataway, NJ USA | time that men have died to win | | jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com | them. FDR | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 1994 07:32:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: AIRSHOWS IN NE USA AIRSHOWS IN THE NORTHEASTERN UNITED STATES, 1994 ISSUE 1, FEBRUARY 14, 1994 This is the latest list of airshows in the Northeastern U.S. that I have been able to compose. The list is sorted by state and any military aerobatic team appearing is noted. Also noted is any known telephone numbers; please call the telephone number listed for further information. I will gladly update this list with any additions, changes and/or deletions. Just e-mail me at jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com CONNECTICUT ----------- Meriden: Aug 28, 14th Annual Police Union Airshow, Meriden Markham MAP DELAWARE -------- Dover: May 7-8, Dover AFB Airshow '94, featuring USAF Thunderbirds, (302) 677-3281 New Castle: Oct 8-9, EAA East Coast Fly-In, Greater Wilmington Arpt DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA -------------------- May 19-21, Joint Services Open House/Kodak Balloon Race, featuring the USN Blue Angels, (904) 223-4362 MAINE ----- Bingham: Sep 24-25, 25th Gadabout Gaddis Fly-In, (207) 672-4135 or (207) 672-3978 MARYLAND -------- Andrews AFB: May 20-21, Open House, featuring the USN Blue Angels, (301) 981-4511 College Park: Sep 17-18, College Park Air Fair Middle River: Sep 17-18, Chesapeake Airshow Ocean City: Sep 23-26, Gathering of Heroes MASSACHUSETTS ------------- NAS South Weymouth: Jun 11-12, Air Expo '94 featuring the USAF Thunderbirds, (617) 786-2875 Westover AFB: Aug 27-28, Great New England Air Show, (413) 557-3587 NEW HAMPSHIRE ------------- Concord: Jun 25-26, International Air Festival, 603) 225-8747 Portsmouth: Jul 23-24, New England Escadrille Warbird Airshow NEW JERSEY ---------- Millville: Jun 11-12, Millville Army Airfield Pittstown: Aug 5-7, Magic of Alexandria Sussex: Aug 26-28, Sussex Airshow NEW YORK -------- Elmira: Jul 2-3, New York State Internation Air Show/Air Fest, (607) 732-9898 Fulton: Jul 9-10, Central New York International Air Show Geneseo: Aug 20-21, 1941 Wings Of Eagles Airshow, (716) 243-0690 Monticello: Aug 6-7, Air-O-Dynamics, Air Expo & Show, (914) 794-2212 Plattsburgh: Jul 9, Clinton County Airshow Poughkeepsie: May 13-15, Great Hudson Valley Balloon Race, 914) 462-2600 Poughkeepsie: Oct 1-2, Autumn Warbird Fly-In, (914) 462-2600 Schenectady: Sep 10-11, Schenectady Airshow "Empire State Heroscience Museum" featuring the USAF Thunderbirds, (518) 377-2191 PENNSYLVANIA ------------ Allentown: Sep 17, Queen City Airport Day Avoca: May 28-29, Wilkes Barre/Scranton International Airshow, featuring USAF Thunderbirds, (717)-655-3077 Erie: Jul 16-17, Erie International Airshow, 814) 833-7343 Franklin: Jun 25-26, Wings Over Venango Latrobe: Sep 3-4, Westmoreland County Airshow featuring the USAF Thunderbirds, (412) 539-8100 Meadville: Sep 17-18, Meadville Air Expo NAS Willow Grove: Jun 18-19, Sounds of Freedom, featuring the USAF Thunderbirds, (215) 443-6035 Philadelphia: Jul 1-6, Confederate Air Force Quakertown: Jun 3-5, Bucks County Balloon & Air Festival, 215) 997-9519 Toughkenamon: Jun 11-12, New Garden Airshow Williamsport: Jun 25-26, Lycoming County Airshow RHODE ISLAND ------------ North Kingstown: Jun 4-5, Rhode Island National Guard Open House (401) 886-1423 VERMONT ------- Burlington: Sep 17-18, Burlington International Charity Airshow featuring the USN Blue Angels, (802) 496-3473 VIRGINIA -------- Langley AFB: Aug 6, IFW Community Appreciation Day Manassas: Sep 17-18, Manassas Air Show Classic '94, (703) 361-0575 NAS Norfolk: Apr 23-24, International Azalea Festival featuring USAF Thunderbirds, (804) 445-4774 NAS Oceana: Sep 10-11, Open House featuring the CAF Snowbirds, (804) 433-3131 Norfolk: Jun 4-5, Harborfest WEST VIRGINIA ------------- Beckley: Aug 6-7 Charleston: Sep 10-11, Wings Over Charleston Huntington: Jun 4-5, Tri-State Anti Drug Airshow featuring USN Blue Angels ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jack McKillop | Those who have long enjoyed such | | Bellcore | privileges as we enjoy forget in | | Piscataway, NJ USA | time that men have died to win | | jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com | them. FDR | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 1994 08:10:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: N AMERICAN MILITARY AEROBATIC TEAM SKED NORTH AMERICAN MILITARY AEROBATIC TEAM SCHEDULE, 1994 ISSUE 3, 14 FEB 94 The following is the combined schedules for the North American military aerobatic teams for the 1994 show season and includes schedules for shows in: Canada Japan Korea Malaysia Singapore Thailand United States This list is sorted by country and Province and State. The three teams covered in this post are: Canadian Armed Forces Snowbirds U.S. Air Force Thunderbirds U.S. Navy Blue Angels Any additions, corrections, etc. would be appreciated. Please e-mail them to me at jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com. I. CANADA --------- ALBERTA ------- Edmonton: Snowbirds, 21-22 May Peace River: Snowbirds, 26 Jul Slave Lake: Snowbirds, 10 May BRITISH COLUMBIA ---------------- Abbotsford: Snowbirds, 12-14 Aug and Blue Angels, 13-14 Aug Comox: Snowbirds, 7 Aug Fort Nelson: Snowbirds, 12 May Kelowna: Snowbirds, 18 May Penticton: Snowbirds, 28 Jul Prince George: Snowbirds, 14-15 May Sandspit: Snowbirds, 5 May Terrace: Snowbirds, 3 May Vanderhoff: Snowbirds, 23-24 Jul Victoria: Snowbirds, 17 Aug MANITOBA -------- Grand Beach: Snowbirds, 8 Jul St Andrews (Winnipeg): Snowbirds, 30-31 Jul NEW BRUNSWICK ------------- Chatham: Snowbirds, 28 May Shediac: Snowbirds, 24 Aug NORTHWEST TERRITORY ------------------- CFS Yellowknife: Snowbirds, 1 May NOVA SCOTIA ----------- Greenwood: Snowbirds, 29 May Shearwater: Snowbirds, 17-18 Sep ONTARIO ------- Cobden: Snowbirds, 31 May Hamilton: Snowbirds, 18-19 Jun London: Snowbirds, 4-5 Jun Ottawa: Snowbirds, 2-3 Jul Parry Sound: Snowbirds, 28 Jun Toronto: Snowbirds, 3-5 Sep Trenton: Snowbirds, 25-26 Jun QUEBEC ------ Bagotville: Snowbirds, 11-12 Jun Gaspe: Snowbirds, 7 Sep Montmagny: Snowbirds, 15 Jun Rimouski: Snowbirds, 9 Jun St George De Beauce: Snowbirds, 5 Jul St Jean: Snowbirds, 20 Aug Sept-Iles: Snowbirds, 30 Aug Sherbrooke: Snowbirds, 21 Aug Thetford Mines: Snowbirds, 6 Jul Val D'Or: Snowbirds, 7 Jun SASKATCHEWAN ------------ Moose Jaw: Snowbirds, 29 Apr, 9-10 Jul and 14 Oct YUKON TERRITORY --------------- Whitehorse: Snowbirds, 8 May II. JAPAN --------- Kadena AB (Okinawa): Thunderbirds, 14 Aug Misawa: Thunderbirds, 10 Aug III. KOREA ---------- Osan AB: Thunderbirds, 13 Aug IV. MALAYSIA ------------ ??: Thunderbirds, 20 Aug V. SINGAPORE ------------ ??: Thunderbirds, 23 Aug VI. THAILAND ------------ ??: Thunderbirds, 18 Aug VII. UNITED STATES ------------------ ALASKA ------ Elmendorf AFB: Thunderbirds 6 Aug ARIZONA ------- Glendale: Thunderbirds, 5-6 Nov Luke AFB: Blue Angels, 16 Apr Mesa: Thunderbirds, 19-20 Mar ARKANSAS -------- Little Rock AFB: Blue Angels, 26-27 Mar Little Rock: Snowbirds, 28 Sep CALIFORNIA ---------- Castle AFB: Thunderbirds, 9 Oct Miramar: Blue Angels, 19-21 Aug MCAS El Toro: Blue Angels, 29 Apr-1 May NAF El Centro: Blue Angels, 12 Mar NAS Lemoore: Thunderbirds, 14-15 May Redding: Thunderbirds, 25-26 Jun Salinas: Blue Angels, 15-16 Oct San Francisco: Blue Angels, 8-9 Oct Travis AFB: Thunderbirds, 8 Oct COLORADO -------- Air Force Academy, Colorado Springs: Thunderbirds, 1 Jun Broomfield: Thunderbirds, 30-31 Jul DELAWARE -------- Dover AFB: Thunderbirds, 7-8 May FLORIDA ------- Kissimmee: Snowbirds, 8-9 Oct MacDill AFB: Thunderbirds, 22-27 Mar Miami: Blue Angels, 5-6 Nov NAS Jacksonville: Blue Angels, 24-25 Sep NAS Pensacola: Blue Angels, 11-12 Nov Pensacola Beach: Blue Angels, 16 Jul Punta Gorda: Blue Angels, 9-10 Apr Sanford: Thunderbirds, 29-30 Oct Tyndall AFB: Thunderbirds, 16 Apr GEORGIA ------- NAS Atlanta: Blue Angels, 1-2 Oct Robins AFB: Thunderbirds, 22-23 Oct HAWAII ------ NAS Barbers Point: Thunderbirds, 27 Aug IDAHO ----- Lewiston: Snowbirds, 21 Jul ILLINOIS -------- Chicago: Blue Angels, 27-28 Aug Springfield: Blue Angels, 30-31 Jul IOWA ---- Davenport: Blue Angels, 25-26 Jun Dubuque: Snowbirds, 21 Sep KANSAS ------ McConnell AFB: Blue Angels, 18-19 Jun KENTUCKY -------- Bowling Green: Thunderbirds, 24-25 Sep LOUISIANA --------- Barksdale AFB: Thunderbirds, 17 Apr Lake Charles: Thunderbirds, 12-13 Nov NAS New Orleans: Blue Angels, 29-30 Oct MARYLAND -------- Andrews AFB: Blue Angels, 20-21 May U.S. Naval Academy, Annapolis: Blue Angels, 23-25 May MASSACHUSETTS ------------- NAS South Weymouth: Thunderbirds, 11-12 Jun Westover AFB: Snowbirds, 27-28 Aug MICHIGAN -------- Battle Creek: Thunderbirds, 4 Jul K.I. Sawyer AFB: Thunderbirds, 2 Jul Selfridge ANGB: Blue Angels, 11-12 Jun Traverse City: Blue Angels, 2-3 Jul MISSOURI -------- St Louis: Snowbirds, 24-25 Sep NEVADA ------ Nellis AFB: Thunderbirds, 20 Nov NEW MEXICO ---------- Roswell: Blue Angels, 7-8 May NEW YORK -------- Scotia: Thunderbirds, 10-11 Sep NORTH CAROLINA -------------- Wilmington: Thunderbirds, 9-10 Apr NORTH DAKOTA ------------ Minot: Blue Angels, 23-24 Jul OHIO ---- Cleveland: Blue Angels, 3-5 Sep Dayton: Thunderbirds, 23-24 Jul OKLAHOMA -------- Muskogee: Thunderbirds, 1-2 Oct Oklahoma City: Snowbirds, 16-17 Jul OREGON ------ Portland: Thunderbirds, 16-17 Jul PENNSYLVANIA ------------ Avoca: Thunderbirds, 28-29 May Latrobe: Thunderbirds, 3-4 Sep NAS Willow Grove: Thunderbirds, 18-19 Jun SOUTH CAROLINA -------------- Florence: Snowbirds, 5 Oct MCAS Beaufort: Blue Angels, 23-24 Apr McEntire ANGB: Thunderbirds, 1 May Myrtle Beach: Thunderbirds, 5 Jun Shaw AFB: Thunderbirds, 30 Apr TENNESSEE --------- Chattanooga: Blue Angels, 28-29 May NAS Memphis: Blue Angels, 10-11 Sep TEXAS ----- Dyess AFB: Blue Angels, 19 Mar El Paso: Snowbirds, 1-2 Oct Ft. Worth: Blue Angels, 22-23 Oct Goodfellow AFB: Thunderbirds, 22 May Houston: Thunderbirds, 15-16 Oct Kelly AFB: Thunderbirds, 21 May Laughlin AFB: Thunderbirds, 18 Sep NAS Corpus Christi: Blue Angels, 14-15 May Sheppard AFB: Thunderbirds, 17 Sep VERMONT ------- Burlington: Blue Angels, 17-18 Sep VIRGINIA -------- NAS Norfolk: Thunderbirds, 23-24 Apr NAS Oceana: Snowbirds, 10-11 Sep WASHINGTON ---------- Seattle: Blue Angels, 6-7 Aug and Snowbirds, 6 Aug WEST VIRGINIA ------------- Huntington: Blue Angels, 4-5 Jun WISCONSIN --------- Eau Claire: Blue Angels, 9-10 Jul WYOMING ------- F.E. Warren AFB: Thunderbirds, 27 Jul ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jack McKillop | Those who have long enjoyed such | | Bellcore | privileges as we enjoy forget in | | Piscataway, NJ USA | time that men have died to win | | jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com | them. FDR | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 1994 15:01:38 +0100 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Richard Cummings Organization: Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty Inc. Subject: Dresden I thought this would be interesting to the List: British, US officials mark anniversary of Dresden bombing DRESDEN, Feb 13 (nca/AFP) - British and U.s. officials today commemorated the death of tens of thousands of people during Allied air raids which started on February 13-14, 1945 in the eastern german city of dresden. They marked the 49th anniversary of the carpet-bombing of the saxony capital with a wreath-laying cermony this morning in front of the monument to the victims. The ceremony was attended by Saxony's state prime minister Kurt Biedenkopf, the mayor of dresden, and British and u.s. officials. At the time of the bombing, Dresden was the temporary home of 500,000 refugees who were fleeing the soviet army coming from the east. Because of the large number of refugees in the city it was never firmly established how many people got killed in the raids, which continued until april 17. estimates have put the number of civilian dead in the Dresden raids at between 35,000 and 135,000 --==oo00oo==-- cummingsr@rferl.org RFE/RL Inc Munich,Germany ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 1994 09:12:29 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Ron Babuka Subject: Re: AIRSHOWS IN NE USA In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 14 Feb 1994 07:32:00 EST from In regards to the postings on airshows in the northeast: >> NEW YORK >> -------- >> Elmira: Jul 2-3, New York State Internation Air Show/Air Fest, >> Fulton: Jul 9-10, Central New York International Air Show >> Geneseo: Aug 20-21, 1941 Wings Of Eagles Airshow, (716) 243-0690 >> Monticello: Aug 6-7, Air-O-Dynamics, Air Expo & Show, (914) 794-2212 Due to some contractual problems, the 1941 Wings of Eagles airshow will NOT be held in Geneseo this year. The WOE airshow will be held in Batavia, New York on the above dates. The National Warplane Museum, which sponsors the airshow, still continues to operate from Geneseo, New York. In case anyone is not familiar with the WOE airshow this year, it is a fly-in of WWII-era warbirds. Traditionally there number from 100 to 150 warbirds along with demonstrations by some aircraft in our nations current inventory. If anyone would like more information feel free to contact me anytime. National Warplane Museum Ron Babuka Geneseo, New York Cornell University ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 1994 08:48:37 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: Dresden It is accepted that most authoritative estimate of the number of persons killed during the 1945 bombing of Dresden was in the report issued by the Chief of Police of Dresden -- approximately 35,000. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 1994 15:31:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Don Bowden Subject: Re: D-Day Anniversary I would recommend visiting Mortain, the site of the 30th Divisions stand against the German attach toward Avranches in August 1944. There is a very nice book out about this battle: "Saving the Breakout" by Allwyn Feather- ston which give a detailed discussion of the battle based on interviews with veterans. I was in France last fall and spent several days in Mortain using the maps in the book as a guide-- it was quite enjoyable driving around and not so overwhelming as the D-Day beaches in scope. From the church atop Hill 314 you can literally see to Mont St. Michel (over ten miles away) which gives you a sense of the importance of the position. There is a retired Engish tanker who runs a bed-and-breakfast in the community (he was out of town when I was there, but I spoke with him on the phone and he was quite enthusiastic about visitors interested in the battle. I can get his name if you want. Sincerely, Don Bowden Winston-Salem, NC bowden@mgrp.bgsm.wfu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 1994 17:33:11 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: GEORGE BAUER Organization: Rockhurst College; Kansas City, MO Subject: Bombing of Japan Can anyone tell me the first time and the conditions when Japan and Tokyo were bombed after the Dolittle raid? Thanks. ========================================================================= | DR. GEORGE R. BAUER | INTERESTS: | | | Computers in Business & Education. | | Recently returned from my second | Education: Curriculum development.| | extended stay in Prague. | International Education, TEFL. | | | Central Europe: Post revolution | | Working on second book about | economic, social, political | | Prague and new Czech Republic. | problems and opportunities. | | E-Mail: | Free lance writing and editing. | | USA: BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET | Stamp collecting. | ========================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 02:09:35 +22311624 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Monte Turner Subject: Journal of Military History Could someone give me the lowdown on obtaining a subscription to the _Journal of Military History_ for the Society for Military History. In addition, I would like to pose a question that might raise some dispute. My two minor field for my PhD are Modern US with an emphasis on World War II, and Military (Primarily Early Modern). My budget allows me to join a limited number of organizations, and thus I ask for opinions concerning which organizations and journals would best suit my academic interests and development. As a pertinant note, my detailed interests are in the area of military technology. Thanks ahead of time, Monte Turner (By the way I have posted this note to both Milhst and WWII, so those of you subscribing to both please excuse the double posting.) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 07:02:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: USAAF 15 FEB 44 COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES TUESDAY, 15 FEBRUARY 1944 FTP SITES 1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf 2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/ wwii_chronology AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT: A-20, Douglas Havoc A-36, North American Apache B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress B-24, Consolidated Liberator B-25, North American Mitchell B-26, Martin Marauder C-47, Douglas Skytrain P-40, Curtiss P-47, Republic Thunderbolt P-51, North American Mustang CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): P-40s, P-51s, and A-36s hit targets in Burma, including rice mill and radio station at Waingmaw, targets of opportunity along the Hukawng-Walawbum road, motor pool and dumps in the Kamaing area, troops and supplies at Padi Ga and a canal bridge at Ye-u; P-40s also drop land mines on Nampaung. HQ 443d Troop Carrier Group is moved from the US to Sylhet, India without personnel and equipment. The 1st, 2d and 27th Troop Carrier Squadrons, already in the theater, will be assigned on 6 Mar. CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 4 B-25s on a sweep in N French Indochina score a direct hit on a steamer at Haiphong and nearby railroad station, damage bridges near Viet Tri and a patrol launch at Hanoi, and hit engine sheds at Thanh Hoa. EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 223: 52 of 54 B-24s hit V-weapon sites at St Pol/Siracourt, France; 29 B-24s are damaged; no losses or casualties. Mission 224: 95 P-47s are dispatched to bomb 2 airfields in France but are recalled; 1 P-47 is damaged; no casualties Mission 225: 6 of 6 B-17s drop 300 bundles of leaflets on Orleans, Chartres, Cambrai, Le Mans, Lille and Reims, France at 2124-2155 hours without loss. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 194 B-26s bomb V-weapon sites, Cherbourg/Maupertus Airfield and targets of opportunity during a morning mission. 122 B-26s again bomb V-weapon construction sites in the coastal area of N France during the afternoon. HQ IX Air Support Command moves from Middle Wallop to Uxbridge, England. HQ 316th Troop Carrier Group arrives at Cottesmore, England from Sicily. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Italy, around 100 B-17s bomb the Monte Cassino Benedictine Abbey. 60+ B-24s attack the Poggibonsi marshalling yard, Campoleone and Porto d'Ascoli; heavy cloud cover causes numerous aborts; all the missions are unescorted. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-26s and B-25s bomb the Monte Cassino Benedictine Abbey in support of the New Zealand Corps assault to establish a bridgehead across the Rapido River S of Cassino; other B-26s bomb the railroad at Monte Molino and marshalling yard at Montepescali; A-20s attack motor transport, roads and road junction in the Albano Laziale area and NW of Valmontone; P-40s bomb concentrations near Cisterna di Roma and dumps in the Valmontone and Rocca di Papa areas; A-36s hit concentrations N of the Anzio beachhead, strafe trucks and barracks in the Frosinone-Rieti areas, bomb the Tiburtina and Trastevere marshalling yards in the Rome area and hit buildings N of Velletri. Units beginning a movement from Sicily to England with C-47s: 29th Troop Carrier Squadron, 313th Troop Carrier Group, from Trapani/Milo Airfield; 36th and 37th Troop Carrier Squadrons, 316th Troop Carrier Group, and 62d Troop Carrier Squadron, 314th Troop Carrier Group, from Castelvetrano. 91st Fighter Squadron, 81st Fighter Group, begins a movement from Montecorvino Airfield, Italy to India. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-24s from Tarawa Atoll and Makin Island pound Mille Atoll and Ponape Island; 10 P-40s from Makin Island bomb and strafe runways and a disabled vessel at Mille Atoll. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): 23 B-25s, with fighter cover, bomb the runway and dispersal area of Vunakanau Airfield on New Britain Island; 20 B-24s hit Borpop Airfield on New Ireland Island causing heavy damage in the runway and revetment areas. In ground action, US and New Zealand troops land on Nissan Island in the Green Islands, 40 mi (64 km) NW of Buka on Buka Island; opposition is weak and organized resistance will end on 23 Feb. 424th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 307th Bombardment Group (Heavy), ceases operating from Munda, New Georgia Island with B-24s and returns to base on Guadalcanal Island. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): On New Ireland Island, 70+ B-24s, A-20s, and B-25s bomb the Kavieng town area, harbor, and shipping and Panapai Airfield; 17 other B-24s, prevented by weather from reaching Panapai, bomb Talasea on New Britain Island. SOURCES: AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1 COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF 1982 THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973 THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2 Jack McKillop USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service) 1955-59 ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jack McKillop | Those who have long enjoyed such | | Bellcore | privileges as we enjoy forget in | | Piscataway, NJ USA | time that men have died to win | | jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com | them. FDR | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 09:41:57 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Crane Conrad LTC Subject: Re: Bombing of Japan >Can anyone tell me the first time and the conditions when Japan and Tokyo >were bombed after the Dolittle raid? > >Thanks. > > > ========================================================================= > | DR. GEORGE R. BAUER | INTERESTS: | > | | Computers in Business & Education. | > | Recently returned from my second | Education: Curriculum development.| > | extended stay in Prague. | International Education, TEFL. | > | | Central Europe: Post revolution | > | Working on second book about | economic, social, political | > | Prague and new Czech Republic. | problems and opportunities. | > | E-Mail: | Free lance writing and editing. | > | USA: BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET | Stamp collecting. | > ========================================================================= > George, The first raid against Japan after the Doolittle mission was conducted by XX Bomber Command B-29s that took off from Bengal and refueled in China. 75 were dispatched, 68 actually got airborne, and only 47 actually bombed the target at Yawata. Arnold really pushed for the raid too early, the long flight and lack of proper preparation resulted in the 28 aircraft that did not make it to the target. The B-29s had been rushed to the field and the bugs wouldn't really be worked out of them until mid-1945. Oops, I forgot to mention that the date of the raid was 7 June 1944. Bombing results were dismal. The first B-29 strike on Tokyo came on 24 November 1944. It was the first strategic mission for B-29s of the XXI Bomber Command in the Marianas. 111 bombers took off, but due to a number of difficulties only 24 bombed the main target. 64 others hit secondary targets in the city. Carrier strikes scheduled for the same time were cancelled. LTC Con Crane USMA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 10:10:43 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Sloan Subject: Re: Journal of Military ... HI Monte, The Journal of Military History is the quarterly you get by being a member of the Society for Military History. The Journal is the only refereed scholarly journal in the field and the society has a large membership of folks active in this field. You can send annual membership fee of $25 to the society at the George Marshall Library, Lexington VA 24450 1600. Write to Henry Bausum the editor. You can also order a great membership directory that will clue you in on who many of the active folks are. But as a student you get a discount, sorry I don't know how much. Then come to the annual meeting in DC in April. The World War II Studies Association is a much smaller and less active group in the sense that they do not have as an large annual meeting or a full fledged quarterly. The dues are $15. They publish a very fine quarterly newsletter, however, that contains much news of scholarly activity on the subject, especially notes on what is coming out of archives lately. The newly elected chairman is Donald Detwiler and secretary is Robert Wolfe. He is at the Battle of Normandy Foundation 1730 Rhode Island Ave NW, Washington DC 20036 Those two organizations would be the ones I suggest you look into. Cheers John Sloan. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 09:59:28 -0600 Reply-To: "Robert J. Granvin" Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Robert J. Granvin" Subject: Re: Bombing of Japan > >Can anyone tell me the first time and the conditions when Japan and Tokyo > >were bombed after the Dolittle raid? > > George, > The first raid against Japan after the Doolittle mission was conducted > by > XX Bomber Command B-29s that took off from Bengal and refueled in China. 75 Given some time (we are planning to take care of this a little later this year anyways because of the timeliness), I will be able to provide a first hand account of the first mission back to Tokyo (not to be confused with the first mission back to Japan as above...) As a short summary, our B-25 is restored in the colors of the 310th Bomb Group, aka "Doolittle's Boys." It made it's maiden flight in honor of the 50th anniversary of the Doolittle Raid on Tokyo (and coincidentally happened less than two days prior to that anniversary). With the request to have our B-25 fly over the Doolittle funeral at Arlington last year, we've also made better contacts with the Doolittle family (including John himself). Bud Faktor is also now a member who will be helping us crew the airplane (Bud is the brother of one of the three who were killed in the raid (three others were captured and executed)). Bud may very well be onboard during the hoped-for mass B-25 flyover at Fresno this April for the Doolittle Reunion. But back to the return to Tokyo, our B-25 has two chief mechanics -- Ray Ostlie was the original Crew Chief of Miss Mitchell in Corsica and Italy. He is primarily charged with coordinating restoration and authenticity. The man who is charged with mechanical perfection of the aircraft is Gene Andreotti. He found himself given a choice between B-17s and B-29s. Since he knew the war was nearly over in Europe, the B-17 was a very well known aircraft, the flighter threat was becoming non-existent, he had been fully trained for months on the B-17 systems exclusively and the general concensus was that the B-29 was a stupid airplane that would never fly, he chose B-17s. This, of course, guaranteed his assignment to the Pacific and B-29s. :-) To make a longer story without all the details yet short, Gene found himself onboard a B-29 during the first raid back to Tokyo. He has vivid memories of those nighttime missions and the "inaccurate" Japanese flak guns blowing B-29s out of the air, watching B-29s collide in the dark and even watching B-29s bombing other B-29s. It was not a safe place to be, and he contends the USAAF technique early on did much more damage to the fleet than the Japanese ever did. Hank Potter (Doolittle's Navigator) and Gene met for the first time a couple of years ago. "Gene, this is Hank Potter. He was on the first raid against Tokyo." "Hi, I'm Gene. You got there only one mission ahead of me..." :-) We've got a lot of little projects in the fire -- but not enough people to take care of them. Anyone in the upper-midwest area want to do some oral history interviews? -- Robert J. Granvin rjg@stat.umn.edu University of Minnesota, School of Statistics "I'm my father? I'm my mother? I'm chipped beef on toast?" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 10:48:32 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List Comments: Resent-From: "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A." Comments: Originally-From: "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A." From: "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A." Subject: Re: WWIIHRS and WWIIAPS schedules In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of TUE 01 FEB 1994 14:28:00 CST I have several events and updates to the calender. The Weldon Springs event is still up in the air--no confirmation on it yet. New events to add: April 23, Aurora , IL, WWII Commemorative Fundraiser--USO show May 21, Fleming Field, MN, USO Dance (contact Rob Granvin) May 26-29, Ft. Bragg, NC, All-American week living history display June 12 Aurora, IL, Living History display and Spectator Battle August 5-7, Holoman Fld, St Paul, MN, 17th Annual Airpower Display (contact Rob Granvin) Sept 10-11, Danville, IL, Illiana Remembers-50 years of Change, Vermillion County Airport, Battles and Displays Sept 17, Fleming Field, MN, USO Dance, (contact Rob Granvin) All the new events are WWIIHRS, except for the Minnesota event which are CAF. If anyone has any events they'd like to add to the calender in the next iteration, please send the info directly to me. I have points of contact for most events if you need further information. Tanks in Advance! TAS ************************************************************************ * Tim A. Scherrer "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of * * Facilities Supervisor your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971 * * WP:816-785-5253 * * HP:816-665-6704 * * ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU * ************************************************************************ ------------------------------- Original Message ------------------------------- The Jefferson Barracks event is scheduled for April 30-1 M. I am posting the WWII Historical Reenactment Society and WWII Airman's Preservation Society schedule of events, as they stand today. March (date unspecified) WWIIHRS, Weldon Springs, MO, Weldon Springs Reeanctment, This event is presently up in the air. Weldon is the birthplace of WWII reenacting, and has been closed for several years due to toxic and radioactive waste cleanup. The HRS is presently working with the Army reserve to get the site opened for reenacting again. More details will follow, if they develop. March 27-28, WWIIHRS, Rosemont, MN, Western Front Battle April 30-1 May, WWIIHRS, Jefferson Barracks (South St Louis County), MO battle reeanctments and displays, Saturday night includes a USO show and dance. WWIIAPS members will be present as well. May 27-30, WWIIHRS and WWIIAPS, Columbia, MO, Salute to Veterans, display on Saturday and Sunday, parade on Monday, A very large airshow with many aircraft. Blue Angels performed Memorial Day '93. 4 June, WWIIHRS, Chicago (lakefront), IL, D-Day reenactment, to include landing craft provided by the USN, event to be covered live by WGN. 4 June Weekend, WWIIHRS (event sponcered by WWII Historical Reemactment Federation), 5 day D-day event, includes 2 days of spectator landings, 1 day of tactical combat village battle, and a USO show. (this one is supposed to be the reenactment to end all reenactments) More details to follow. June 11-12, WWIIAPS, Dyersburg, TN, airshow June 25-26 (date not confirmed), WWIIHRS (sponcered by 11th Panzer), New Lenox, IL, Airshow and battle reenactments, small event but good campsites and the public can get up close to the reenactors July 15-17 WWIIAPS, Oklahoma City, OK, airshow July 28-August 2, WWIIAPS, Oshkosh, WI, EAA Fly Inn (need I say anymore? September 3-5, WWIIAPS, Louisville, KY, Clark County Airport, Airshow September 21-24, WWIIAPS, Oklahoma City, OK, 91st Bomb Group Reunion, (WWIIAPS portrays the 91st, so this is a big event) September (no date specified), Chesterfield, MO, Spirit of St Louis Apt, Airshow (this event was canceled last year due to floating lear jets) December 17, WWIIAPS, Chicago, IL, Christmas Party, probably to be held at 91st Aero Squadron near O'Hare Airport, St Louis members last year took the train to and from the event. As you can see, the WWIIHRS calender has not filled up yet--more info should be coming later about events. If anyone has any questions, please contact me direct. TAS ************************************************************************ * Tim A. Scherrer "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of * * Facilities Supervisor your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971 * * WP:816-785-5253 * * HP:816-665-6704 * * ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU * ************************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 11:42:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: Robert L Sherrod According to the New York Times, Robert L. Sherrod, author of: TARAWA: THE STORY OF A BATTLE (1944, available through the Admiral Nimitz Foundation), ON TO WESTWARD; THE BATTLES OF SAIPAN AND IWO JIMA (1945, Nautical & Aviation), and HISTORY OF MARINE CORPS AVIATION IN WORLD WAR II (1952, Nautical & Aviation) died of emphysema yesterday, 14 Feb 94, in Washington, DC. He was 85. Sherrod went ashore with the Marines at Tarawa and stayed until the island was secured. At the time, Sherrod was an associated editor of TIME magazine and had covered various phases of the war in the Pacific. His book about Saipan and Iwo Jima has been praised as one of the outstanding books of reporting on World War II. Sherrod was also a co-author of the text of: LIFE'S PICTURE HISTORY OF WORLD WAR II (1950) and APOLLO EXPEDITIONS TO THE MOON (1975. Requiescat in pace. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 14:34:41 EST Reply-To: arowden@crassus.onu.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was arowden@[140.228.26.1] From: ANDREW ROWDEN Subject: Time Line Event To all World War II reenactors, There will be a Time Line encampment sponsered by the Smoke and Fire News to be held on June 18-19 at Ft. Meigs, Perrysburg, Ohio (10 minutes south of Toledo). All impressions are welcome to come. The Time Line will have represented periods from the days of the Vikings to 1945. There will be living history demonstrations from each period. If you and your unit are interested, contact Smoke and Fire News at 1-800-766-5334 or write Smoke and Fire News P.O. Box 166 Grand Rapids, OH 43522 Andrew Rowden arowden@crassus.onu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 14:46:20 EST Reply-To: arowden@crassus.onu.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was arowden@[140.228.26.1] From: ANDREW ROWDEN Subject: World War II Reenacting Could someone recommend to me a U.S. WW II unit in Ohio - possibly the Cincinnati, Dayton, Columbus, or Toledo areas - to join. I was a member of the WWII HRS about 10 years ago in Northern California but was not active with any unit at the time. I would be very interested in starting up again now that I live in Ohio. Also, are there any events to be held in the Ohio, Indiana, and Kentucky areas this season. Thank you for your help. Andrew Rowden arowden@crassus.onu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 15:51:52 EST5EDT Reply-To: JONKAY@MINMET.LAN.MCGILL.CA Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Jon Kay Organization: McGill University - Mining Engineer Subject: WWII sites in Greece. Since people are talking about WWII historical spots in Normandy, I thought I might ask if anybody knows any interesting spots in Greece? My friends are going to Greece this summer and I'm going along. I would like to incorporate some WWII historical sites in my itinerary. I know that Crete was the site of the first (only?) all-airborne assault in WWII - are there any good sites or museums there? What about the rest of Greece? ------------------------------------------------ above message from : JONKAY@MINMET.LAN.MCGILL.CA ------------------------------------------------ "...In perpetrating a revolution, there are two requirements: someone or something to revolt against and someone to actually show up and do the revolting. Dress is usually casual and both parties may be flexible about time and place but if either faction fails to attend, the whole ennterprise is likely to come off badly. In the Chinese revolution of 1650 neither party showed up and the deposit on the hall was forfeited...." - Woody Allen, from WITHOUT FEATHERS. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 17:03:44 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR Subject: Re: WWII sites in Greece. > Since people are talking about WWII historical spots in Normandy, I > thought I might ask if anybody knows any interesting spots in > Greece? My friends are going to Greece this summer and I'm going > along. I would like to incorporate some WWII historical sites in my > itinerary. I know that Crete was the site of the first (only?) > all-airborne assault in WWII - are there any good sites or museums > there? What about the rest of Greece? > > ------------------------------------------------ > above message from : JONKAY@MINMET.LAN.MCGILL.CA > ------------------------------------------------ Hi Jon, I know of no particular battlefields or museums about the Second World War in Greece that are set up for visitors. I had friends stationed on Crete and one even lived in the house that the German commander used as his billet but nobody was able to find out much about the battle outside the base library. Greece is more interested in showing off its Classical history rather than its more recent history. Italy is the same way. There is a market section of Athens called the Plaka and there are dealers who sell souvenirs of WWII for (typically) astronomic prices. A friend of mine reported his neighbor finding a German helmet on a hill outside Athens on a visit there in 1991 (a far better price than at the Plaka). I went to Corfu in 1992 and there were some military looking ships rusting in the harbors near Paleokastritsas and Corfu city. Corfu, a resort island near the Greek mainland, was the only successful operation of conquest in Greece by the Italian Army. The only other military items I saw on the island were brass vases and lamps made >from British and German artillery casings. A lot happened there (especially Crete) but nothing has been done about it that I could discover. I think there are some cemeteries there but that's about it. :-( Sorry, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 23:08:01 CST Reply-To: salvin@heartland.bradley.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Steve Alvin Subject: Re: Bombing of Japan Con, I'd like to mildly disagree with your statement that it wasn't untill June 1944 that Japan was bombed after the Doolittle raid. Bombing attacks on the Kuriles from bases in Alaska occured beroe (before) that date. For that matter, on 4 February, 1944, a TF under Rear-Adm Baker comprising the cruisers Detroit and Raleigh and the DD's Meade, Frazier, Gansevoort, and Edwards, bombarded Paramushiro in the Kuriles. The raid by the XX's B-29's should be called the first attack on the main islands since Doolittle. -- Steve Alvin salvin@heartland.bradley.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 23:17:12 CST Reply-To: salvin@heartland.bradley.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Steve Alvin Subject: Re: USAAF 15 FEB 44 The raid on Monte Cassino, mentioned in this post, destroyed one of the most important historical site in Europe--the home abbey of the Benedictine order. It was thought by the Allies that the Germans were using it as part of their very stubborn reisistance on that sector of the front. Unfortunately, the Germans had made a point of scrupulously staying out of the abbey. But, they moved into the rubble and found it made an excellent defensive position. Hindsight is 20-20. I'm not blaming the Allies for the decision for the attack, but as a medieval/early modern scholar, I'm eulogizing the loss. -- Steve Alvin salvin@heartland.bradley.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 16:35:18 AEST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: ccwilber@UQVAX.CC.UQ.OZ.AU Subject: RAF Pathfinders I've a friend who is doing some research into the RAF Pathfinders. I told her that this group would be an *excellent* place to find some information... Can anybody help me with - 1. Any refernces on the subject, 2. Any possible contacts who may have flown missions, or been associated with them, 3. Any other sources of information that I haven't thought of. Thanks Wilber. +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Wilber WILLIAMS w.williams@cc.uq.edu.au | |Prentice Centre Telephone : +61 7 365 4232 | |The University of Queensland Facsimile : +61 7 365 4477 | |Brisbane Qld 4072 AUSTRALIA | +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 01:23:48 CST Reply-To: salvin@heartland.bradley.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Steve Alvin Subject: Re: Bombing of Japan A correction to my earlier post. The composition of the TF that bombarded Paramushiro was taken from Rohwer & Hummelchen's *Chronology of the War at Sea, 1939-1945. According to the article "First Surface Strike on Japan" in this month's Naval Institute's *Proceedings*, the TF actually was comprised of the CL's Richmond & Raleigh and the DD's Picking, Sproston, Wickes, Young, Charles J. Badger, Luce, and Kimberly. The article also mentions that the first raid on the Kurile's was on 20 Dec, 1943 by Ventura's and Catalina's of Fleet Air Wing Four. -- Steve Alvin salvin@heartland.bradley.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 10:15:00 CET Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Peter de Lange Subject: Lady Be Good Lady Be Good Kevin Kamphaus asked some info about this plane a week ago. In the December 1959 volume of RAF Flying Review I found the story of the "Lady Be Good" as told by Captain James M.Paule, first USAF flight sergeon at the scene to Larry Ruddock. Here some lines: In April 1943 was she member of the 376 BG based at Solluch, on the coastle trip south of Benghazi. Twenty-five Liberators of the 376 th took of for their mission against airfields around Naples, 750 miles to the north. Take-off time was 1330 hours, tot at twilight and be back at base 2400 hours. The mission was not one of the great of the war, only 11 planes hit the primery target, the others clobbered the secondary. Almost all the machines had engine trouble, caused by sand getting into the engines, but by midnight all were accounted for. Except one - "Lady Be Good" At twelve minutes past midnight on the morning of April 5, "Lady Be Good" called Benina for a fix. The records show that Benina tower gave the fix as requested, and that the message was received by the "Lady Be Good" That was the last contact between the Liberator and its base. She did not return. She was thought to have crashed in the sea. The next-of-kin of her nine crew members received a "lost in action" telegram. No further clue to the mystery was revealed until the discovery, sixteen and a half year later, of the "Lady Be Good" wreckage 440 miles from the coast in the heart of the Sahara desert. Radio still working, coffee still drinkable- but no trace of any human being. The crew of the "Lady Be Good" 1 lt William J.Hatton, New York, N.Y. 2 lt Robert F.Toner, North Attleboro, Mass. 2 lt D.P. Hays, Lee's Summit, Mo 2 lt John S.Woravka, Cleveland, Ohio T/Sgt Harold S.Ripslinger, Saginaw, Mich. T/Sgt Robert E.Lamotte, Lake Linden, Mich. S/Sgt Guy E.Shelley, New Cumberland, Pa. S/Sgt Vernon L.Moore, New Boston, Ohio S/Sgt Samuel R.Adams, Eureka, Ill. Peter de Lange ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 07:10:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: USAAF 16 FEB 44 COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES WEDNESDAY, 16 FEBRUARY 1944 FTP SITES 1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf 2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/ wwii_chronology AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT: A-20, Douglas Havoc A-24, Douglas Dauntless A-36, North American Apache B-24, Consolidated Liberator B-25, North American Mitchell B-26, Martin Marauder Baltimore, Martin (RAF) C-47, Douglas Skytrain F4U, Vought Corsair (USN) L-5, Stinson Sentinel P-40, Curtiss P-51, North American Mustang Spitfire, Vickers Supermarine CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, A-36s and P-51s hit supply dumps, troop concentrations and an encampment area near Myitkyina, Kamaing, Tonkin and Walawbum; B-25s and P-51s destroy 3 locomotives at Kyaingkwin. 118th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron, AAF, India-Burma Sector (attached to Tenth Air Force), arrives at Gushkara, India from the US with P-51s. CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 2 B-25s knock out a railroad bridge at Yen Bay, French Indochina and damage 2 other bridges to the S near the coast. 74th Fighter Squadron, 23d Fighter Group, based at Kweilin with P-40s, sends a detachment to Liuchow. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Italy, B-24s, unescorted, bomb marshalling yards at Pontassieve, Siena, Poggibonsi and Prato, a bridge at Cecina, and a railroad and highway near Rieti. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s bomb the Orte marshalling yard and attack the Campoleone area; B-26s bomb San Stefano al Mare and hit the area near the Perugia railroad bridge, a bridge N of Orvieto, a factory near the Marsciano bridge and a bridge at Albinia Station; A-20s, with Royal Air Force (RAF) and South African Air Force (SAAF) Baltimores and Spitfires, hit concentrations in the Anzio battle area; A-36s bomb the Rome/Tiburtina and Rome/Ostiense marshalling yards in the Rome area; P-40s attack Monte Cassino Abbey, pound tanks, trucks, and troop concentrations along the US Fifth Army front, and hit the towns of Fondi and Roccasecca; fighters over Anzio encounter increased air effort in conjunction with an all-out ground offensive against the Allied beachhead. 61st Troop Carrier Squadron, 314th Troop Carrier Group, begins a movement from Castelvetrano, Sicily to England with C-47s. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-24s from Tarawa Atoll bomb Wotje Atoll and Taroa Island in Maloelap Atoll; P-40s from Makin Island fly 2 bombing-strafing strikes against Jaluit Atoll; A-24s bomb Mille Atoll. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): 12 B-24s, with 30+ P-38s and US Navy (USN) F4Us, pound the runway at Vunakanau Airfield on New Britain Island. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): 40+ B-25s attack a convoy off New Hanover Island. 30+ B-24's bomb Panapai Airfield and Kavieng on New Ireland Island, and some hit Cape Balangori and Talasea, New Britain Island. 19 B-24s and B-25s bomb Halong in the Celebes Islands. P-40s hit shipping and barges in the Wewak, New Guinea area. Transfers in New Guinea: HQ 345th Bombardment Group (Medium) from Dobodura to Nadzab; 25th Liaison Squadron, 5212th Photographic Wing (Provisional), from Lae to Nadzab with L-5s. SOURCES: AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1 COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF 1982 THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973 THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2 Jack McKillop USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service) 1955-59 ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jack McKillop | Those who have long enjoyed such | | Bellcore | privileges as we enjoy forget in | | Piscataway, NJ USA | time that men have died to win | | jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com | them. FDR | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 08:37:16 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Sidney W. Kitchel" Subject: GEN re: Bombing of Japan In-Reply-To: from "Steve Alvin" at Feb 15, 94 11:08:01 pm Steve Alvin writes: |-> |-> Con, |-> |-> I'd like to mildly disagree with your statement that it wasn't |-> untill June 1944 that Japan was bombed after the Doolittle raid. |-> Bombing attacks on the Kuriles from bases in Alaska occured beroe |-> (before) that date. For that matter, on 4 February, 1944, a TF |-> under Rear-Adm Baker comprising the cruisers Detroit and Raleigh |-> and the DD's Meade, Frazier, Gansevoort, and Edwards, bombarded |-> Paramushiro in the Kuriles. |-> |-> The raid by the XX's B-29's should be called the first attack on the |-> main islands since Doolittle. Well, all my good sources are at home. I seem to recall that there were carrier strikes against Japan at some point. The question is whether they came before the AAF returned to bombing. --Sid -- Sidney W. Kitchel kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com Data Parallel Systems, Inc. ============|| DPSI ||=============== 4617 E. Morningside Drive (812) 334-8100 Bloomington, Indiana, 47408 USA FAX: (812) 334-8121 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 09:05:47 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Crane Conrad LTC Subject: Re: Bombing of Japan >Con, > >I'd like to mildly disagree with your statement that it wasn't >untill June 1944 that Japan was bombed after the Doolittle raid. >Bombing attacks on the Kuriles from bases in Alaska occured beroe >(before) that date. For that matter, on 4 February, 1944, a TF >under Rear-Adm Baker comprising the cruisers Detroit and Raleigh >and the DD's Meade, Frazier, Gansevoort, and Edwards, bombarded >Paramushiro in the Kuriles. > >The raid by the XX's B-29's should be called the first attack on the >main islands since Doolittle. > >-- >Steve Alvin >salvin@heartland.bradley.edu > Steve, You are correct. I was only looking at the main islands. Con ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 09:16:26 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Crane Conrad LTC Subject: Re: GEN re: Bombing of Japan >Steve Alvin writes: >|-> >|-> Con, >|-> >|-> I'd like to mildly disagree with your statement that it wasn't >|-> untill June 1944 that Japan was bombed after the Doolittle raid. >|-> Bombing attacks on the Kuriles from bases in Alaska occured beroe >|-> (before) that date. For that matter, on 4 February, 1944, a TF >|-> under Rear-Adm Baker comprising the cruisers Detroit and Raleigh >|-> and the DD's Meade, Frazier, Gansevoort, and Edwards, bombarded >|-> Paramushiro in the Kuriles. >|-> >|-> The raid by the XX's B-29's should be called the first attack on the >|-> main islands since Doolittle. > > Well, all my good sources are at home. I seem to recall that >there were carrier strikes against Japan at some point. The question >is whether they came before the AAF returned to bombing. > > --Sid >-- >Sidney W. Kitchel kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com >Data Parallel Systems, Inc. ============|| DPSI ||=============== >4617 E. Morningside Drive (812) 334-8100 >Bloomington, Indiana, 47408 USA FAX: (812) 334-8121 > Sidney, I checked those, and the carrier strikes against the home islands started after the initial B-29 raids. Operation HOTFOOT, carrier raids on Tokyo, was supposed to go with the November raid, SAN ANTONIO I, but was cancelled. Con Crane ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 10:35:24 EST Reply-To: Aldo_Hubert@uncg.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Aldo Subject: Re: USAAF 16 FEB 44 I pose the following question reguardless of the risk of sounding a twit: I tried to FTP to 129.71.32.152, connected, but like some dumb suitor, was refused. I tried anonymous & guest & nothing. Do you need to have an account to connect or just know what you are doing? Thanks in advance. >>><<< >>><<>><<>><<>><<< 1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf >>><<< 2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/ >>><<< wwii_chronology >>><< Aldo M. Hubert Aldo_Hubert@uncg.edu University of North Carolina at Greensboro 800 Oakland Ave. Greensboro NC 27412 Sic Friatur Crustum Dulce ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 09:43:04 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Guns of Navarone site/memorial? In-Reply-To: <199402151648.AA08724@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu> from "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET OK, stop laughing, everybody. WAS there a German coastal gun emplacement that interdicted Royal Navy support/rescue of the abortive Dodecanese landings. (And when were they -- 1944?) Anybody know? Wasn't there a wargame about the operation, as well? Lou Coatney, WIU ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 10:42:04 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Crane Conrad LTC Subject: Re: RAF Pathfinders >I've a friend who is doing some research into the RAF Pathfinders. I told >her that this group would be an *excellent* place to find some >information... > >Can anybody help me with - > > 1. Any refernces on the subject, > 2. Any possible contacts who may have flown missions, or been > associated with them, > 3. Any other sources of information that I haven't thought of. > >Thanks > >Wilber. > >+------------------------------------------------------------------------+ >|Wilber WILLIAMS w.williams@cc.uq.edu.au | >|Prentice Centre Telephone : +61 7 365 4232 | >|The University of Queensland Facsimile : +61 7 365 4477 | >|Brisbane Qld 4072 AUSTRALIA | >+------------------------------------------------------------------------+ > Wilber, I can recommend some sources. Gordon Musgrove's PATHFINDER FORCE would probably be the best book for your friend. Some other good sources are Martin Middlebrook's BERLIN RAIDS and John Terraine's TIME FOR COURAGE. There are some excellent videos that I have seen on PBS dealing with RAF night bombing, but I can't remember the names right now. Derek Monz, a countryman of yours, should be on this net someplace, and he has done a lot of work on radar bombing that should also be useful to you. I think his E-Mail is gldrm@manta.jcu.edu.au. LTC Con Crane USMA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 09:36:48 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Michael P LaForge Subject: Camp Fannin|IRTC, Texas i would be interested in corresponding with anyone who trained or was cadre at Camp Fannin IRTC during the period May 1943-Dec 1945. please respond directly, as therer seems to be a lot of action on this list already and this is not of much intrest to most. thanks in advance ******************************************************************************* Mike LaForge, QASAS USADACS,USATCES,ESL,DERP-FUDS EMAIL: mlaforge@savanna-emh1.army.mil DSN: 585-8762 COMM: 815-273-8762 IN PARTIBUS INFIDELIUM ******************************************************************************* ZZ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 08:54:11 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: Guns of Navarone site/memorial? Nope. Fiction, is all. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 09:05:38 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: RAF Pathfinders AS you'll know, there were a notably large number of Australians in Pathfinder Force, RAF. So there'll be a goodly amount of research material available right in your own back yard. Incidentally, for a slightly "different" insight in to the mind of courage required to be a Pathfinder, I recommend you read: NO PASSING GLORY, by Andrew Boyle, UK, 1955. Its the biography of Group Captain Leonard Cheshire, VC, DSO, DFC. After war service leading Pathfinders (and British Observer at Nagasaki) he turned to helping the terminally ill and destitute, founded the Cheshire Homes, and died just last year, a very well-loved man. Regards from the "other Victoria", British Columbia -- just across the Pacific from you. :-) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 11:23:09 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR Subject: Cassino Operations > The raid on Monte Cassino, mentioned in this post, destroyed one > of the most important historical site in Europe--the home abbey > of the Benedictine order. It was thought by the Allies that the > Germans were using it as part of their very stubborn reisistance > on that sector of the front. Unfortunately, the Germans had made > a point of scrupulously staying out of the abbey. But, they > moved into the rubble and found it made an excellent defensive > position. > > Hindsight is 20-20. I'm not blaming the Allies for the decision > for the attack, but as a medieval/early modern scholar, I'm > eulogizing the loss. > > -- > Steve Alvin > salvin@heartland.bradley.edu Hi Steve, Don't feel to bad. It looks as good as new now. I was there in 1992 and I can see why it had to go. Cassino is one of the most misunderstood battles of modern times. While true that the Germans had no guns at the abbey they certainly had observers for the guns that were dug into the surrounding hills. The observers did not even have to be in the abbey itself to call down fire on any part of the valley below, in fact, the entire mountain it sits on dominates the valley below on 3 sides. It was no accident that this site was picked as the cornerstone for the Gustav line. It has been discussed as *the* example of an ideal defensive position in German military texts for over 100 years. Add to all this the fact that the dams on the Volturno and Rapido Rivers were destroyed and the flood plane of those rivers turned into a morass of sticky mud and the *really* pissy weather they have there this time of year - drizzly rain with subfreezing temps in the hills and gusty winds and you get a hell of a nasty place to try to attack. Also, while the abbey was not fortified the town of Cassino certainly was. Buildings were turned into pillboxes with tanks and concrete reinforced bunkers being positioned *inside* buildings completely masking them from the outside. Now consider the allied position, multinational forces arrayed against this objective which on the surface appear to be able to roll over the German defenders except for the key factor that they could only be committed piecemeal due to the narrow avenues of approach which were completely under German observation (and pre-zeroed artillery). The US 36th Division was given the assignment of crossing the Rapido which cost the division dearly getting across only to be unsupported and the remnants that did make it across were ordered back or risk being captured. The battle was reviewed by congress at the request of the 36th Division with the goal of having action taken against General Mark Clark for incompetence (he was found not to be at fault - but Clark was never welcome in the State of Texas after that). After weeks of fighting allied forces began day and night attacks against German positions in the hills only to loose personnel by falling to their deaths on the steep drop-offs in those hills and German artillery smashing into the rocks that multiplied the effect of shrapnel by spraying the blast area with rock fragments as well as steel shards from the shells. For days the troops never saw the sun. US artillery fired countless rounds of smoke during the course of the battle in hopes of obscuring the exposed troops on the valley floor from German observation. Allied armor was completely useless against dug-in, zeroed-in 88s in the hills that the tanks couldn't elevate enough to engage let alone spot or even penetrate if they did see what to shoot at and could elevate. The only avenue of approach for the tanks was right up the Naples - Rome highway as everything else was a swamp. To relieve the months long stalemate of Cassino, Churchill pushed for and got the Anzio landings which were hoped to pull defenders from the Cassino area and save that action from total collapse. The landing caught the Germans completely cold and the commanding general of the landing force dug in and built a strong bridgehead. The road to Rome was completely open and he could have occupied it that day and he had been criticized by some historians for not doing this but his orders were to relieve Cassino by drawing off German units, not take Rome. If he had stretched his units out to do that Kesselring would have diced them up very quickly. In fact, Kesselring later commented that the allied commander at Anzio did just what Kesselring feared the most, a solid force landing behind the Gustav line and not allowing itself to be pushed back into the sea. This too was a part of the German plan as their strategy was to fall >from one line to the next and stall the allies as long as possible tying up units and supplies. The Germans realized that they could not hold indefinitely and were buying time with the Gustav Line, the Adolf Hitler Line and the rest. The Germans wanted to set up a line that would cause the allies to have to amass for an attack and then the Germans would fall back to the next prepared line costing the allies months in preparation for offensives that (while successful) bought the Germans valuable time with acceptable losses. It has been suggested that the Italian campaign was Churchill's baby and that is why he pushed premature operations like Cassino and Anzio. He wanted to have "The soft underbelly of Europe" under allied control and attack Germany from the South rather than through France. As it turned out, Italy proved to be no pushover and even when all effective German resistance broke down after the Po River crossing by allied forces, seasoned units like the US 36th had been pulled out of the Italian campaign to attack Southern France just when it looked like the Germans were finished in Italy. Anyway, that's my thoughts on the subject. What was the question?? :-) Oh yea, the abbey and its treasures. It has been completely rebuilt and the manuscripts and artifacts had been evacuated before the allied bombing which, by the way, the allied first "bombed" with leaflets saying they would be bombing the abbey and to move anything they didn't want to loose which the Germans took as a propaganda opportunity to "rescue" the abbeys treasures. The German fallschirmjaegers (paratroops) put up an amazing defence and had the respect of the allied units they fought. Truces were arranged so both sides could recover the killed and wounded and it was an operation that was carried out with a relatively high degree of civility. This is evidenced by the fact that this year (May) there is going to be a 50th anniversary of the battle attended by participants of all countries who fought there Axis and Allied. The Germans who fought there invited the 36th Division specifically to share the reunion with them. Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 12:43:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: Col Vermont Garrison According to the New York Times today (16 Feb), Colonel Vermont Garrison, US Air Force Retired, died of a heart attack at his home in Mountain Home, Idaho on Monday, 14 Feb. He was 78. Garrison was a fighter pilot in World War II, Korean and Vietnam and was credited with 17 kills. He was born in Mount Victory, Kentucky and enlisted in the Royal Air Force during World War II where he trained as a fighter pilot. Transferring to the US Army Air Forces in 1943, he flew P-47s and P-51s and was credited with 7 victories. He was shot down by ground fire in early 1944 and spent a year as a POW. In 1953 during the Korean War, he was the commander of the 335th Fighter Squadron flying F-86s and was credited with 10 kills. In Vietnam, he flew F-4s until retiring in 1973. Requiescat in pace. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 19:16:59 GMT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Gudmundur Helgason Subject: USN/RN Jargon, Comm, bases etc... In-Reply-To: <9402161549.AA29517@rvik.ismennt.is>; from "mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU" at Feb 16, 94 9:43 am Hi all, I need to know the following for a book project: USN/RN Communications (between ships, to coastal bases etc) The Jargon used by the commanders/crews The Bases used and info on them (mines, etc) USN/RN Anti-submarine weapons If anyone could point toward some top-of-the-line books on the subjects above it would be great :) Gudmundur J. Helgason E-mail to: gummihe@ismennt.is ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 19:20:34 GMT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Gudmundur Helgason Subject: USN cmdr L RON HUBBARD, anybody? In-Reply-To: <9402161553.AA29848@rvik.ismennt.is>; from "Crane Conrad LTC" at Feb 16, 94 10:42 am Hi all, Can anyone here on the list locate on which USN destroyers/frigates L RON HUBBARD commanded in WWII? He was commanding some sub hunter in the Atlantic but ended WWII in the Pacific commandind another sub hunter I think. Gudmundur J. Helgason E-mail to: gummihe@ismennt.is ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 13:36:44 CST Reply-To: rjg@umnstat.stat.umn.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Robert J. Granvin" Subject: WANT: Trading Card Collectors/Help Well, a mildly unusual request... :-) I'm looking for people who have an interest in collecting non-sport trading cards OR who are willing to make a few phone calls/visits in their area to help me complete a set. In 1992, a set of 50 cards were released which feature the artwork of Alberto Vargas (the Varga Girl which was very popular as WWII nose art). In late 1993, a second set of 50 cards were released which is still fairly plentiful (though the sources are all drying up). The SERIES I cards are still available, but difficult to find. I have a complete set of series II, but need to complete Series I. (The Gatefold that inspired the nose art for Miss Mitchell is apparently both in Series I and part of the ones I'm missing... Typical... I STILL can't find a copy of the December '43 Esquire...) Our intention is to collect as much Varga art as possible, even in the recently printed card variety, to be used as a display comparing the original art to that as it appeared on the noses of Liberators, Mitchells, Forts and a zillion other planes. The cards are actually a great way to do it, because they are a lot cheaper than the originals (ouch!) and they are a lot smaller, which is great when you are VERY space deprived. The packs, when they can be found, sell for $1.00 each (for a set of 8 cards). I'm missing probably about 30 of them, and willing to purchase up to 50 packs (at present time). If anyone can assist me in tracking down some Series I packs, I'd appreciate the effort and will reimburse all expenses (please check with me before putting me in debt, though... :-) The card set is known as "The Pin Up Girls" (or very similar) and published by 21st Century Archives. Keep in mind -- I am not interested in Series II, which is easy to find... Any help out there? -- Robert J. Granvin Southern Minnesota Wing rjg@stat.umn.edu Confederate Air Force ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 13:24:13 -0230 Reply-To: olaf@kean.ucs.mun.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: OLAF Subject: Q: Curtis Aircraft Company This question is not directly related to WW II, but a number of people on this list might be able to provide an answer. A colleague is working on the development of the Curtis flying boats of the *First* World War era (she's particularly interested in the flying boats of the type involved in the first trans-Atlantic flight in 1919). She's trying to track down the company's papers, if they still exist. The "Curtis Papers" at the Library of Congress turned out to be nothing more than newspaper clippings. Can anyone suggest where the company papers might be found today? With thanks in advance, Olaf Janzen Dept. of History Sir Wilfred Grenfell College Corner Brook, Newfoundland e-mail: olaf@kean.ucs.mun.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 16:30:18 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Archie Smith Subject: Re: USN cmdr L RON HUBBARD, anybody? In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 16 Feb 1994 19:20:34 GMT from L Ron Hubbard as commander of a USN warship is a frightening thought! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 08:23:56 +1000 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Derek Monz Subject: Re: RAF Pathfinders In-Reply-To: <199402160638.AA28811@marlin.jcu.edu.au> On Wed, 16 Feb 1994 ccwilber@UQVAX.CC.UQ.OZ.AU wrote: > I've a friend who is doing some research into the RAF Pathfinders. I told > her that this group would be an *excellent* place to find some > information... > > Can anybody help me with - > > 1. Any refernces on the subject, > 2. Any possible contacts who may have flown missions, or been > associated with them, > 3. Any other sources of information that I haven't thought of. > > Thanks > > Wilber. Well Wilber, There are a few books that you can look at. 1. The Berlin Raids, by MArtin middlebrook. 2. The Strategic air offensive in Europe 1939-45 ( the official history). But the authors names escape me. 3. The bombing of Dresden, by David Irving ( its not all that bad). 4. The right of the line: The air war in europe 1939-45 by Max Hastings. If you want further info, e-mail me direct and I'll give you chapter and page no.'s.etc. cheers Derek MOnz. EMail: Derek.Monz@jcu.edu.au Msc (Geology)@ JCU 1993 Disclamer: - I didn't do it! " If there is anything more important than my Ego..... I want it taken out and shot!" (Zaphod Beablbrox (HHGTTG)). ((-------)) \o/ | _/ \_ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 14:57:26 -0800 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Jim Benn Subject: Re: Lockheed Ventura In-Reply-To: <9402162234.AA07635@agaviion.agfx.com> My boss flew in the Pacific during WWII; he told me he flew anti-shipping strikes in Lockheed Venturas. I'm not familiar with this plane- is it a light bomber, or more like a Catalina? Any background info on Venturas would be appreciated; it's always nice to be able to speak intelligently with the boss! Thanks. *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*> Jim Benn [jrb@agaviion.agfx.com] <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=* |-=[ Auto-Graphics, Inc. ]=[ /~~) /~~) ]=-| |-=[ 8 West Main Street ]=[ (__(_UTO - (__/RAPHICS ]=-| |-=[ Niantic, CT 06357 ]=[ .___/ ]=-| *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*> PHONE: 800-733-6939 = FAX: 203-691-0183 <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 15:06:14 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: Cassino Operations Cassino was finally captured by Polish troops. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 00:31:42 CST Reply-To: salvin@heartland.bradley.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Steve Alvin Subject: Re: Lockheed Ventura The Lockheed Ventura was a militarized version of the Model 81 Lodestar civil transport. The British approached Lockheed in 1939 about the conversion of the Lodestar. They already were will plsed with the Lockheed Hudson, which was based on the Super-Electra airliner. In Feb, 1940, the British Purchasing Commision placed an initial order for 25 aircraft. Lockheed subcontracted the airplane to Vega. The first bomber flew on 7/31/41 and the British ordered 650, but only 394 were delievered, the rest were retained by the Americans for their own use after the U. S. became involved in the war. In British service, the Ventura served as a daylight bomber with mediocre success until August, 1943, when the last Ventura equipped squadron war re-equipped with Mosquitoes or Mitchells. (Ooops, S/B Sept, 1943) In American service, the Ventura was called the B-34 by the Army Air Corps and the PV-1 by the Navy. I'm not familiar with the operations of the B-34, but the PV-1 saw most of its operations in the Pacific, especially in the Aleutians where it served as a recon plane, a bomber, and as a anti-submarine aircraft. Some PV-1 were converted into gunships by increasing the number of machineguns in to the nose and by installing a belly pack. New Zealand and, I think, Australia also operated the Ventura. Late in the war, an improved Ventura, the PV-2 was introduced. Specifications for the Ventura I: Crew 5; power plant two 2,000 hp Pratt & Whitney Double Wasp Gr2800 S1A4-G; span 65' 6"; length 51' 5"; wing area 551 sq ft; empty weight 17,275 lbs, loaded weight 27,250 lbs; bomb load 2,500; max speed 315 mph at 15,500'; service ceiling 25,000'; range 925 miles with max bomb load; armament two fixed forward firing .50 mg's and 2 depressable .303 mg's in nose, two or four .303 mg's in dorsal turret, and two .303 mg's in ventral position. The most obvious difference in the American aircraft when compared to the British is that the British had a Boulton Paul Turret, while the U. S. planes had the standard American turret. -- Steve Alvin salvin@heartland.bradley.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 07:08:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: USAAF 17 FEB 44 COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES THURSDAY, 17 FEBRUARY 1944 FTP SITES 1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf 2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/ wwii_chronology AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT: A-20, Douglas Havoc A-36, North American Apache B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress B-24, Consolidated Liberator B-25, North American Mitchell C-47, Douglas Skytrain F-5, Lockheed Lightning P-40, Curtiss P-47, Republic Thunderbolt P-51, North American Mustang CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 38 A-36s and P-51s on armed reconnaissance hit troops and supplies from Lonkin to Kamaing; 6 P-51s hit supply areas along roads around Lonton and Manywet; 2 others hit a road junction near Maingkwan; 2 B-25s and 6 P-51s strike a road bridge, railroad station, and rail cars in the Pyingaing area; 2 B-25s and 6 P-51s attack but fail to damage a bridge near Ye-u. CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In French Indochina, 4 B-25s on a sweep of the Gulf of Tonkin score 2 direct hits on a freighter at Vinh, damage a bridge approach and locomotive at Yen Xuon Station, and destroy a locomotive at Yen Ly Station. EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO) TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Advanced HQ, Ninth Air Force, is opened at Hillingdon House, Uxbridge. It is later joined in the area by advanced units of the IX Fighter Command and by troop carrier units, all of which form a nucleus of advanced echelons so as to centralize tactical operations in anticipation of combat on the Continent. Arrivals in England from Sicily: HQ 52d Troop Carrier Wing at Cottesmore; 15th Troop Carrier Squadron, 61st Troop Carrier Group, at Bardston with C-47s. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): The 455th and 456th Bombardment Groups (Heavy) become operational giving the Fifteenth Air Force 12 B-24 groups. In Italy, unescorted B-17s and B-24s attack Campoleone and Grottaferrata, motor transport parks in the Campoleone junction and Rocca di Papa areas, a troop concentration near Frascati, stores depots in the Grottaferrata area, and other targets in advance of the US Fifth Army's Anzio battle line which is under heavy counterattack by German forces. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s bomb the Campoleone and Lanuvio area, B-25s hit dumps SW of Rome and N of Anzio, and also hit guns nearby; A-20s blast a dump and troop concentrations in the Anzio area; P-47s bomb dumps near Valmontone; A-36s hit Carroceto, concentrations SE of Rome, and a railroad underpass and a factory N of Anzio; P-40s blast enemy transport, guns, and assembly areas N of Cisterna di Latina, trucks N of Anzio and N of the beachhead battleline, railroad stations at Campoleone and Carroceto, and bivouac areas, dumps, a factory, and bridge in the battle area; this entire air effort (the heaviest to date in support of troops) is aimed at helping prevent a breakthrough at the beachhead, where the Germans are committed to a full-strength counter- offensive; A-36s bomb Monte Cassino Abbey in the only air action on the US Fifth Army main front. Detachment of 23d Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, 5th Photographic Reconnaissance Group, operating from San Servero, Italy with F-5, returns to base at Alghero, Sardinia. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-24s from Tarawa Atoll and Abemama Island hit Ponape and Kusaie Islands, and Jaluit Atoll. P-40s strafe floatplanes off Emidj Island, as a US Navy (USN) Task Force begins a heavy attack on Truk Atoll. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): 20 P-40s join 40+ USN fighters in covering an attack by 70 USN dive bombers on shipping in Keravia Bay, New Britain Island; 8 Japanese aircraft are claimed shot down; 2 USN fighters are lost. In the N Solomons Allied fighters hit Queen Carola Harbor, Kessa Plantation and a bridge N of Kahili. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): 40 B-24s bomb Panapai Airfield, New Ireland Island and Talasea, New Britain Island. 16 B-25s claim 2 surface vessels and a submarine sunk off New Hanover Island. 16 P-47's strafe targets of opportunity in the Alexishafen, New Guinea area. HQ 6th Photographic Reconnaissance Group moves from Port Moresby to Nadzab, New Guinea. SOURCES: AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1 COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF 1982 THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973 THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2 Jack McKillop USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service) 1955-59 ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jack McKillop | Those who have long enjoyed such | | Bellcore | privileges as we enjoy forget in | | Piscataway, NJ USA | time that men have died to win | | jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com | them. FDR | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 07:10:03 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Bob Smart Subject: Re: RAF Pathfinders In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 17 Feb 94 08:23:56 +1000. <9402162237.AA00482@beetle.hq.Verdix.COM> > On Wed, 16 Feb 1994 ccwilber@UQVAX.CC.UQ.OZ.AU wrote: > > > I've a friend who is doing some research into the RAF Pathfinders. I told > > her that this group would be an *excellent* place to find some > > information... > > > > Can anybody help me with - > > > > 1. Any refernces on the subject, > > 2. Any possible contacts who may have flown missions, or been > > associated with them, > > 3. Any other sources of information that I haven't thought of. > > > > Thanks > > > > Wilber. > > > Well Wilber, There are a few books that you can look at. > > 1. The Berlin Raids, by MArtin middlebrook. Middlebrook also did a book on The bombing of Hamburg & Nuremburg that would be worth looking at. Bob Smart (bsmart@smart.com) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 07:17:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: Re: Lockheed Ventura >The Lockheed Ventura was a militarized version of the Model 81 Steve, good post. I think you fat-fingered the keyboard because I believe the Ventura was a Model 18. If you read my USAAF posts, the RNZAF used Venturas in the Solomons campaign as bombers. I did some checking one time and found that the RAF had 3 squadrons of Ventura bombers in the UK during 1943(?). I believe one squadron was RAF, one RAAF and one RNZAF. I will be nice to the aircraft and just say that it left a lot to be desired as a light bomber and the Brits finally got smart and relieved them of that job and gave them a maritime recon job they could handle. ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jack McKillop | Those who have long enjoyed such | | Bellcore | privileges as we enjoy forget in | | Piscataway, NJ USA | time that men have died to win | | jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com | them. FDR | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 23:28:22 +1100 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Ray Fairall Subject: Re: Lockheed Ventura I don't know anything about Locheed Venturas except that the Royal Australian Air Force has a magnificantly restored flying example with turrents etc. I have only seen pictures but I have seen an equally magnificantly restored Lockheed Loadstar at a local airshow! Regards Ray. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 08:19:39 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Crane Conrad LTC Subject: Re: WANT: Trading Card Collectors/Help >Well, a mildly unusual request... :-) > >I'm looking for people who have an interest in collecting non-sport >trading cards OR who are willing to make a few phone calls/visits in >their area to help me complete a set. > >In 1992, a set of 50 cards were released which feature the artwork of >Alberto Vargas (the Varga Girl which was very popular as WWII nose art). >In late 1993, a second set of 50 cards were released which is still >fairly plentiful (though the sources are all drying up). > >The SERIES I cards are still available, but difficult to find. I have a >complete set of series II, but need to complete Series I. (The Gatefold that >inspired the nose art for Miss Mitchell is apparently both in Series I and >part of the ones I'm missing... Typical... I STILL can't find a copy of the >December '43 Esquire...) > >Our intention is to collect as much Varga art as possible, even in the >recently printed card variety, to be used as a display comparing the >original art to that as it appeared on the noses of Liberators, Mitchells, >Forts and a zillion other planes. The cards are actually a great way to >do it, because they are a lot cheaper than the originals (ouch!) and they >are a lot smaller, which is great when you are VERY space deprived. > >The packs, when they can be found, sell for $1.00 each (for a set of 8 >cards). I'm missing probably about 30 of them, and willing to purchase >up to 50 packs (at present time). > >If anyone can assist me in tracking down some Series I packs, I'd appreciate >the effort and will reimburse all expenses (please check with me before >putting me in debt, though... :-) > >The card set is known as "The Pin Up Girls" (or very similar) and published >by 21st Century Archives. Keep in mind -- I am not interested in Series II, >which is easy to find... > >Any help out there? > >-- >Robert J. Granvin Southern Minnesota Wing >rjg@stat.umn.edu Confederate Air Force > Robert, I checked one of my son's card catalogues, and one company offers the whole 1992 set for $15. Address is: Faraday Baseball Co. 17 South Morton Ave. Morton, Pa. 19070 Phone : 215-328-6864 If they don't have anymore, I think that there were one or two others listed who might. Good luck. LTC Con Crane USMA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 08:31:13 EDT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: RICHARD KING Subject: Addr: Casino Operations Bill Huber's interesting account of the Casino operations is the only place I've ever heard a defense/vindicatino of the Anzio landings (of which my uncle took part in a tank). I've heard the battle highly criticized as a failure of the commanders to move inland fast and that their digging in to form a beach head was a drastic mistake. My uncle said the 88s would pierce their tank and one man in his tank had his hands shot off from the 88s. I wonder, Bill, is your account of this generally the prevailing view? I would like to read more of this (not that I am disagreeing with what you say here, just intrigued at new -- to me --information). *************************************************************** Richard King, Reference Librarian, Vincennes (IN) Univ. RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 08:38:14 EDT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: RICHARD KING Subject: Addr: WANT: Trading card collectors I am not answering directly to Robert's query, but I am interested in Vargas--especially the ESQUIRE centerfolds. I have been told it is rare to find an intact vintage ESQUIRE of the WWII period (or exactly when the Vargas art appeared, I'm not sure--does anyone know) with the centerfold still in the magazine. A friend (one of those guys who pokes around estate sales, buying boxes of junk, etc.) recently bought for about 50 cents a big box of ESQUIRES WITH the Vargas centerfolds in them. He said they probably run about $75 each with the centerfold, virtually nothing without it. Robert: What does it cost to obtain either of the sets of Vargas cards you mentioned, and how can I pursue getting them? ************************************************************* Richard L. King, Reference Librarian, Vincennes (IN) Univ. RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 08:49:41 EDT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: RICHARD KING Subject: Addr: Armed Services Editions Speaking of WWII art, I have next to my terminal two of the Armed Services Editions published for soldiers. They were supposed to fit in the part of a soldier's pack that carries a shovel, and measure 3 13/16ths by 5 1/2 inches (which would certainly fit). The Library of Congress Center for the Book published a nice history of these WWII artifacts, which I obtained by ordering direct (even though it was supposed to be out of print). I guess (without the book in front of me) there were over a thousand different books published (lots of classics and works popular in the 1940s), and a worthy goal for a (rich) book collector would be to obtain a copy of each. They run in prices ranging from about $5 to $10, unless they are considered especially rare or collectible. Although mint condition Armed Services Editions would be highly prized, I kind of like the old battered ones. WHO KNOWS where these books MAY have been? Is anyone interested in this topic? Does anyone have any of these hard to find relics from WWII? ************************************************************ Richard L. King, Reference Librarian, Vincennes (IN) Univ. RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 10:29:37 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR Subject: Re: Addr: Armed Services Editions > Is anyone interested in this topic? Does anyone have any of these > hard to find relics from WWII? > ************************************************************ > Richard L. King, Reference Librarian, Vincennes (IN) Univ. > RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU Hi Richard, I have one that I picked up in Italy. I think its Konrad Heiden's _Der Fuhrer_. My uncle told me that _Life_ magazine was available in a condensed version for troops in the field. It had all the articles and none of the advertising. He was a marine in the Pacific wounded at Iwo Jima. I have a nearly complete set of _Yank_ magazines but have never seen one of these issues of _Life_. Has anybody else? Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 12:52:52 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: James E Irwin Subject: Re: WANT: Trading Card Collectors/Help Bob I'll call the Faraday Baseball Co. for you. They're right in my neighborhood. I'll get availability and price and let you know asap. Jim Irwin Defense Personnel Support Center Philadelphia PA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 12:53:05 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: James E Irwin Subject: Re: WANT: Vargas Cards Bob, I checked with Faraday Baseball Co. as suggested by Col. Crane, and yes, they have the 1992 Series I Alberto Vargas cards for sale. They are in stock, $15.00/set, they will ship to you for a $2.00 shipping charge. They accept Visa, Mastercard, and Discover. Hope this is of help. Jim Irwin Defense Personnel Support Center Philadelphia PA jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 11:21:55 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR Subject: Re: Addr: Casino Operations > Bill Huber's interesting account of the Casino operations is the > only place I've ever heard a defense/vindicatino of the Anzio > landings (of which my uncle took part in a tank). I've heard the > battle highly criticized as a failure of the commanders to > move inland fast and that their digging in to form a beach head > was a drastic mistake. My uncle said the 88s would pierce their > tank and one man in his tank had his hands shot off from the 88s. > I wonder, Bill, is your account of this generally the prevailing > view? I would like to read more of this (not that I am disagreeing > with what you say here, just intrigued at new -- to me --information). > *************************************************************** > Richard King, Reference Librarian, Vincennes (IN) Univ. > RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU Hi Richard, I did a lot of reading on the Italian campaign while I was living there. I will have to dig around and find out which sources provided what information that I knitted into yesterdays epistle on Anzio and the Italian Campaign. I know that the 36th Division is pissed at Mark Clark because I've spoken with vets of the 36th. If you ever want to start a barroom brawl the two best ways are to go to Australia and say that RAAF stands for Ragedy Ann's Air Force or go to Texas and talk about what a wonderful General Mark Clark was in Italy. I'll check on those books. One was titled _Anzio_ and I think the author was Fuller but I'm not sure. There is also _The Road to Rome_ and I can't even guess the author of that one. There are two schools of thought on Anzio. There is Churchill on one hand saying he thought he threw a wildcat on the beach at Anzio and instead got a beached whale and on the other hand the mission outlined for the 34th Division (I think -- I hate not having my references with me) to relieve the Casino battle by drawing off units from that area by landing in its rear. One author suggested that Churchill pushed the point for face saving reasons in opposition to Eisenhauer who fought Churchill all along the way on the Anzio landing because the landing craft were needed for the Overloard operation. Churchill's glory at taking Rome that May was short lived because two weeks later the papers were full of headlines about the landings in France and the Italian campaign came under the heading of "in other news" for the rest of the war. Some of the criticism of Anzio also lay in that they were slow to relieve the Casino salient but their mission was not to attack from the rear at Monte Casino but to draw German units away from that battle to engage this new threat in their rear. The force was not strong enough to open an offensive and odds are better for a weaker force in the defence which is why I believe the Anzio operation came off the way it did and why that did the most damage in Kesselring's opinion. It was a failure in that no German units were pulled from Casino BUT it did force Kesselring to commit his reserves who then could not be sent to Casino. In that sense the Anzio operation fulfilled its mission. Kesselring was put in the position to have to ask Rommel (then chief of forces in Northern Italy) to release his units to bolster subsequent defensive lines in the central mountains in front of Bologna, Florence and the Po river. In looking at this evidence I have come to the conclusion that the commander at Anzio did exactly what needed to have been done. I suspect a commander like Patton would not have been able to resist the temptation to take Rome which would have made a big splash in the headlines but could well have jeopardized the mission of the landing. Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 12:20:32 EDT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: RICHARD KING Subject: Addr: Help I am trying to find information about a civil war general about which not much is written. Can anyone on this list point me to a name and address of a list that concerns civil war history? I am trying to assist a professor who is writing a book and want to ask historians what they know. Since this is off the list topic (non WWII), please respond to me privately. Thanks for any help. ************************************************************ Richard L. King, Reference Librarian, Vincennes (IN) Univ. RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 10:01:50 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: Addr: WANT: Trading card collectors I have a copy of a book called CLASSY CHASSIS; a collection of color illustrations of WW2 bomber-nose art. Might be interesting for your project. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 10:01:38 PST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: rod holmes Subject: Re: Addr: Casino Operations The generally held opinion of the Anzio operation was that the Allied commander Gen. Lucas should have moved quickly inland and possibally taken Rome. But I disagree with this for a number of reasons. The exact orders that Lucas received are open to debate. If I remember right the offical orders talked about forming a solid beachhead and then exploit inland but Lucas's unofficals order were along the line of don't get driven back into the sea. And he acted in the way he thought was best. It should also be remembered that Lucas was the expert in amphibous operations in the Med at the time. He had participated in all the landings that had occured up to this point and had helped to write the Army's manual on amphibous operations before the war. Bill Huber also mentioned that if the Allies had driven quickly inland they probably would have be destroyed piece meal which is probably true. The couter attacks that German lauched almost drove the Allies back into the sea. If the Allies hadn't been dug-in they would have in all likely hood been driven back into the sea. The landing at Anzio was supposed to help draw of German troops from the south in order to help an attack that the Allies were about to launch there. This didn't work, the German troops that did attack the beachhead came mostly from northern Italy and other fronts. That's about it. Rod Holmes | The maggots are falling like rain. rholmes@dhvx20.csudh.edu | --GWAR ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 10:05:59 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: Addr: Armed Services Editions Somewhere around here, I still have three or four copies of Armed Services Editions. SEE HERE, PRIVATE HARGROVE would be my favorite. A popular comic look at life in the (US) army; sold millions of copies. Also have a couple by James M. Cain, and, as I recall, GOD'S LITTLE ACRE, by Erskine Caldwell -- considered a *very* racy book at the time. :-) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 13:14:23 EST Reply-To: Aldo_Hubert@uncg.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Aldo Subject: Re: Addr: WANT: Trading card collectors Reguarding WWII era mags, downtown (in Greensbroro NC USA strangly enough) there is a pretty-good usedbook store; he also has tons of mags that are let go with no real attention to collector's value (i.e. cheap). And if he does not have what you're looking for, the owner also frequents estate sales & has other inside tracks & is usually willing to look for stuff for you. I do not konw how he deals with long distance transactions though, and I've never checked specifically for the items in question. Here it is if anybody wants to risk a buck to call: The Browsery (910)-370-4648 I'd wait till 2pm Eastern Standard as he usually is a bit slow in the am. Sort of in response to: **I am not answering directly to Robert's query, but I am interested **in Vargas--especially the ESQUIRE centerfolds. I have been told **it is rare to find an intact vintage ESQUIRE of the WWII period **(or exactly when the Vargas art appeared, I'm not sure--does **anyone know) with the centerfold still in the magazine. A friend **(one of those guys who pokes around estate sales, buying boxes **of junk, etc.) recently bought for about 50 cents a big box **of ESQUIRES WITH the Vargas centerfolds in them. He said they **probably run about $75 each with the centerfold, virtually nothing **without it. ** Robert: What does it cost to obtain either of the sets of **Vargas cards you mentioned, and how can I pursue getting them? *************************************************************** **Richard L. King, Reference Librarian, Vincennes (IN) Univ. **RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU Aldo M. Hubert Aldo_Hubert@uncg.edu University of North Carolina at Greensboro 800 Oakland Ave. Greensboro NC 27412 Sic Friatur Crustum Dulce ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 12:48:29 CST Reply-To: salvin@heartland.bradley.edu Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Steve Alvin Subject: Re: Lockheed Ventura Yes, s/b Model 18 Lodestar. The three British squadrons were the 21st, 464th (RAAF), and 487th (RNZAF) and were part of the 2nd Group. From November, 1942 to Sept 1943 they took part in daylight raids and "circus" operations (offensive operations aimed at getting German fighters into the air so they could be attacked by RAF fighters). Probably the most famous Ventura raid s were on the Philips radio and valve factory at Eindhoven 12/06/42 and a raid on Amsterdam, in support of city workers on strike, on 5/03/43. The Amsterdam rraid was a debacle because the German governorof Holland was paying a state visit to Haarlem, right on the Ventura's flight path, and he was well protected with extra flack batteries and fighters. To make matters worse, the RAF fighter diversion force arrived 20 minutes early, was then re-called but not before Germand air defenses were warned. The 11 Ventura's of the 487th and their escort of 6 Spitfires were jumped by over 70 FW-190's and Me-109's! Ten of the 11 bombers were lost. As a bomber, the British found the Ventura to be ok, except it was " too slow, too heavy, unmaneuverable, and lacking in defensive armament"! They switched over to Mosquitoes ASAP. -- Steve Alvin salvin@heartland.bradley.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 13:01:33 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Cheryl Bryant Subject: B-17 Pilots I hope that there is someone who can help me on this channel. My Grandfather was a B-17 pilot in the 9th Air Corp during the second World War. Recently I saw a student who was reading a book about B-17 pilots and I have been looking for it ever since. The name of the book was something like "The Lucky Bastard's Club." Have any of you ever heard of this book? If so, who is the author and do you happen to know the publisher? Thanks in advance. C.K. Bryant ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 08:42:41 CST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List Comments: Resent-From: "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A." Comments: Originally-From: Archie Smith From: "AD16000@NEMOMUS.BITNET. --Scherrer, Tim A." Subject: Re: USN cmdr L RON HUBBARD, anybody? In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 16 Feb 1994 19:20:34 GMT from Didn't he write "DESTROYERNETICS"? this is a joke, incase you hadn;t figured that out yet. ************************************************************************ * Tim A. Scherrer "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of * * Facilities Supervisor your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971 * * WP:816-785-5253 * * HP:816-665-6704 * * ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU * ************************************************************************ ------------------------------- Original Message ------------------------------- L Ron Hubbard as commander of a USN warship is a frightening thought! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 15:07:00 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Joe Barone Subject: Re: Addr: Casino Operations I'll probably regret doing this, especially with references at home but as Major Blesse said: "No guts, no glory." Bill Huber writes: > ... the mission outlined > for the 34th Division (I think -- I hate not having my references with > me) to relieve the Casino battle by drawing off units from that area > by landing in its rear. The problem was that the beachhead was so shallow that there were absolutely no spots that were safe from artillery. One might argue that a Dieppe style raid would be successful if it managed to divert German resources but the troops who were chosen for such an assignment can be understandably upset. While one can argue over the feasibility of taking Rome, one must still wonder why the beachhead wasn't expanded before the arrival of German units. I still have to classify the leadership of the operation as timid. -- Joe Barone m1b@ssd.ray.com No guts, no glory. If you're going to shoot him down, you have to get in there and mix it up with him. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 21:28:28 GMT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Gudmundur Helgason Subject: To Archie Smith about Hubbard In-Reply-To: <9402172051.AA21398@rvik.ismennt.is>; from "WILLIAM HUBER - SCDR" at Feb 17, 94 11:21 am Hey Archie Smith Could you explain you strange to me comment about Hubbard? I did not understand the reason behind that remark. L Ron Hubbards Father was also in the USN (Naval MAn all his adult years, commander I think). Please write me privately and explain. Gudmundur J. Helgason E-mail to: gummihe@ismennt.is ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 15:50:07 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: Addr: Casino Operations Rome fell to the Allies on June 4, 1944 (not "May"), 36 hours before D-Day. 'Took much of the spotlight away from freeing the Eternal City. Gen Mark Clark was *very* annoyed by this, which he saw as lost glory. The man is said to have travelled with more photographers NCOs.He had his photo taken (left profile)standing beside a large highway sign bearing the magic name, "ROMA". This, the sign, Clark had uprooted and sent to his home in the States). Cassino was one of the very great battles of WW2, actually *four* battles over a six-month period. Horrendous casulaties: 105,000 Allied, 80,000 German. Cassino was the fulcrum of the German's Gustav Line, perfectly sited to act as a classic "killing ground". ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 15:51:33 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: Addr: Casino Operations Aaaah -- "If". ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 16:11:45 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: Addr: Casino Operations A fighting patrol (couple of jeeps) of the Canadian/US Special Service Force is said to have actually reached streets on the outskirts of Rome. Their recon report that the way was open was apparenly ignored by the commander at Anzio. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 19:08:27 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Larry & Kim Jewell Subject: INF: Ian Kershaw obit? Can anyone confirm or deny the recent passing of Ian Kershaw? For those not familiar with his work, he authored "Hitler" in the Profiles In Power series. TIA, Larry J ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 16:02:36 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: Addr: Casino Operations One of the most impartial definitive studies is: CASSINO: THE HOLLOW VICTORY by John Ellis (pub. Andre Deutch). ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 19:27:48 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Joel Furr Subject: Moderators wanted for soc.history.war.world-war-ii As you all on this list are probably aware, a move is afoot to create a moderated newsgroup called soc.history.war.world-war-ii. It'll be moderated to keep out the insane "holocaust never happened" revisionists and others, and this means we need moderators. We're talking about group moderation, where a post is randomly sent to one of several moderators for posting. Anyone want to volunteer? I'm looking for people who've been On The Net for at least two years, and who've got very reliable net access, and don't mind taking on a very, very thankless job. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 13:39:10 AEST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: ccwilber@UQVAX.CC.UQ.OZ.AU Subject: Re: Lockheed Ventura Jim Benn writes - >My boss flew in the Pacific during WWII; he told me he flew anti-shipping >strikes in Lockheed Venturas. Just for interest, there's one flying around Australia. I think it is owned and operated by the RAAF Museum. It turns up at the local air shows, and looks great! +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Wilber WILLIAMS w.williams@cc.uq.edu.au | |Prentice Centre Telephone : +61 7 365 4232 | |The University of Queensland Facsimile : +61 7 365 4477 | |Brisbane Qld 4072 AUSTRALIA | +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 13:52:41 AEST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: ccwilber@UQVAX.CC.UQ.OZ.AU Subject: Re: RAF Pathfinders Thanks to all those who gave me help on sources or contacts. I'll pass them on to my friend doing the research. Much appreciated, Wilber. +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Wilber WILLIAMS w.williams@cc.uq.edu.au | |Prentice Centre Telephone : +61 7 365 4232 | |The University of Queensland Facsimile : +61 7 365 4477 | |Brisbane Qld 4072 AUSTRALIA | +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 22:23:40 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Bruce Sheehan Subject: Re: Addr: Help Richard, Try H-CIVWAR@UICVM it is a civial war history listserv, good luck. Bruce On Thu, 17 Feb 1994, RICHARD KING wrote: > I am trying to find information about a civil war general about > which not much is written. Can anyone on this list point me to > a name and address of a list that concerns civil war history? > I am trying to assist a professor who is writing a book and > want to ask historians what they know. Since this is off the > list topic (non WWII), please respond to me privately. Thanks > for any help. > ************************************************************ > Richard L. King, Reference Librarian, Vincennes (IN) Univ. > RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 23:43:19 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Stan Koper Organization: None at the moment Subject: Re: Cassino Operations In-Reply-To: <199402161749.JAA11089@mail.netcom.com> > > The raid on Monte Cassino, mentioned in this post, destroyed one > > of the most important historical site in Europe--the home abbey > > of the Benedictine order. It was thought by the Allies that the > > Germans were using it as part of their very stubborn reisistance > > on that sector of the front. Unfortunately, the Germans had made > > a point of scrupulously staying out of the abbey. But, they > > moved into the rubble and found it made an excellent defensive > > position. > > > > Hindsight is 20-20. I'm not blaming the Allies for the decision > > for the attack, but as a medieval/early modern scholar, I'm > > eulogizing the loss. > > > > -- > > Steve Alvin > > salvin@heartland.bradley.edu > > Hi Steve, > > Don't feel to bad. It looks as good as new now. I was there in 1992 > and I can see why it had to go. Cassino is one of the most > misunderstood battles of modern times. While true that the Germans > had no guns at the abbey they certainly had observers for the guns > that were dug into the surrounding hills. The observers did not even > have to be in the abbey itself to call down fire on any part of the > valley below, in fact, the entire mountain it sits on dominates the > valley below on 3 sides. It was no accident that this site was picked > as the cornerstone for the Gustav line. It has been discussed as > *the* example of an ideal defensive position in German military texts > for over 100 years. > Bill-- I hope when you say, "[w]hile true that the Germans had no guns at the abbey tehy certainly had observers for the guns..." you don't mean that they had observers in the abbey. The information I have is quite to the contrary, and clearly indicates that destruction of the Monastery was not only senseless, but in fact counter productive. Here is B.H. Liddell Hart on the subject, from his _History of the Second World War_: "...there was no evidence that German troops were using the monastery--and ample proof subsequently that they abstained from entering it..." However, once it had been destroyed by allied bombardment, "The German troops then felt justified in moving into the rubble, which enabled them to establish a still firmer defence." Similarly, Martin Blumenson in _Bloody River_, referring to preparations to force a crossing of the Rapido at Monte Cassino states: "Above them, on the height of Monte Cassino, apparently staring at the troops, was the imposing structure of the Benedictine abbey, occupied, the men were certain, by German observers who had telephone lines to artillery battalions ready to pour down death and destruction on those who attempted to break into the Gustav defenses. The troops were wrong about the Germans being in the abbey; German artillery observers had no need to use the abbey, for they could see just as well from the hill itself and from other pieces of high ground nearby" (p.85). > Add to all this the fact that the dams on the Volturno and Rapido > Rivers were destroyed and the flood plane of those rivers turned into > a morass of sticky mud and the *really* pissy weather they have there > this time of year - drizzly rain with subfreezing temps in the hills > and gusty winds and you get a hell of a nasty place to try to attack. > > Also, while the abbey was not fortified the town of Cassino certainly > was. Buildings were turned into pillboxes with tanks and concrete > reinforced bunkers being positioned *inside* buildings completely > masking them from the outside. These were the real problems. A brief scan of both books above indicates that the crossing was forced further east first. I believe Blumenson quotes extensively from General Frank Walker, who blamed Mark Clark for ordering what was essentially a series of frontal assaults on well-fortified positions. > [excellent description of battle conditions deleted] > To relieve the months long stalemate of Cassino, Churchill pushed for > and got the Anzio landings which were hoped to pull defenders from > the Cassino area and save that action from total collapse. The > landing caught the Germans completely cold and the commanding general > of the landing force dug in and built a strong bridgehead. The road I don't have any immediate sources to draw on, but I'm sure at least several would take exception to calling Anzio a "strong bridgehead". "Holding on by its fingernails" would probably be more apt. > to Rome was completely open and he could have occupied it that day > and he had been criticized by some historians for not doing this but > his orders were to relieve Cassino by drawing off German units, not > take Rome. If he had stretched his units out to do that Kesselring > would have diced them up very quickly. In fact, Kesselring later Perhaps the question was not so much whether there should have been an allied breakout from Anzio toward Rome, but rather whether, by advancing a little farther, the allies might have obtained better defensive positions, and had less of the beach itself exposed to German fire. > Adolf Hitler Line and the rest. The Germans wanted to set up a line > that would cause the allies to have to amass for an attack and then > the Germans would fall back to the next prepared line costing the > allies months in preparation for offensives that (while successful) > bought the Germans valuable time with acceptable losses. And it seems to have worked, for the most part. > > > Anyway, that's my thoughts on the subject. What was the question?? :-) > Oh yea, the abbey and its treasures. It has been completely rebuilt > and the manuscripts and artifacts had been evacuated before the > allied bombing which, by the way, the allied first "bombed" with > leaflets saying they would be bombing the abbey and to move anything > they didn't want to loose which the Germans took as a propaganda > opportunity to "rescue" the abbeys treasures. > [more painful deletions in the interest of brevity] Stan Koper skoper@netcom.com This message brought to you by uqwk 1.7 and Yarn 0.57 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 07:27:53 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Chuck Weckesser <71233.677@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Admiral Doenitz 18 February 1994 This is my first post to the list and I hope it is received as I am brand new to Internet. I have a bet with a friend, please help me settle it. As we all know, Hitler, in a final act of revenge against the Army, took Borman's advice and named Doenitz as his successor and even had the audacity to hand-pick his cabinet before finally stop the delay tactics and taking his poison (as a brief aside, I think he was too much of a coward to have shot himself first). Didn't the Allies allow Admiral Doenitz to in effect conduct "business as usual" for like a month or so before arresting him and the rest of his "government"? I am almost certain of it. I don't know why the Allies didn't arrest all of them on the spot, but as I recall reading somewhere, Cabinet meetings were even held. Where did Doenitz set up his government? I cannot recall. I know the surrender took place at Reims but it would seem to me that since he had previously commanded the U-Boat Division of the Navy, he probably would have gone to Kiel. Can anyone else shed some light on this for me? Kind and Warm Regards, Chuck ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 07:57:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: mc killop Subject: USAAF 18-21 FEB 44 COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES FRIDAY, 18 FEBRUARY 1944 FTP SITES 1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf 2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/ wwii_chronology AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT: A-20, Douglas Havoc A-36, North American Apache B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress B-24, Consolidated Liberator B-25, North American Mitchell B-26, Martin Marauder Beaufighter, Bristol C-47, Douglas Skytrain F-5, Lockheed Lightning Hurricane, Hawker (RAF) P-38, Lockheed Lightning P-39, Bell Airacobra P-40, Curtiss P-47, Republic Thunderbolt P-51, North American Mustang Spitfire, Vickers Supermarine (RAF) CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 40+ B-25s, A-36s and P-51s attack the town of Ye-u and nearby bridge, bivouacs N of Laban, bridges in the Pyingaing area and along the Mu River, supply and troop concentrations at Waingmaw radio station and a supply area near Kamaing and gun emplacements SE of Taihpa Ga; the strikes are generally successful. 58th Fighter Squadron, 33d Fighter Group, arrives at Karachi, India from Italy; they will be equipped with P-47Ds. CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In French Indochina, 4 B-25s on a sweep of the Gulf of Tonkin damage 2 large boats N of Bakli Bay on Hainan Island, destroy an ammunition dump at Phu Ly and knock out a nearby railroad bridge. EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): HQ Eighth Air Force issues orders to establish a photographic reconnaissance wing [8th Reconnaissance Wing (Provisional)] in Cheddington. The purpose is to make the Eighth independent in aerial reconnaissance and to consolidate the efforts of units presently engaged in this and related activities. Colonel Elliott Roosevelt, the President's son and currently Director of Reconnaissance for the Ninth Air Force, is named Commanding Officer. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): HQ 61st Troop Carrier Group arrives at Barkston, England from Sicily. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Operations are restricted to photographic and weather reconnaissance. 764th, 765th, 766th and 767th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), 461st Bombardment Group (Heavy), arrive at Venosa, Italy from the US with B-24s; first mission is 2 Apr. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, A-20s hit a troop concentration near Piedimonte; XII Air Support Command P-40s and A-36s fly 17 missions in support of US Fifth Army troops resisting the German counteroffensive which reaches its deepest penetration into the Anzio beachhead on this day; objectives include tanks, vehicles, gun positions, troop concentrations, and a railroad underpass along the Anzio-Albano Laziale axis; fighters over Anzio successfully intercept air strikes on the beachhead; New Zealand troops capture Cassino Station. HQ 321st Bombardment Group (Medium) and 445th, 446th, 447th and 448th Bombardment Squadrons (Medium) move from Vincenzo Airfield to Gaudo Airfield, Italy with B-25s. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): P-40s from Makin Island bomb and strafe Jaluit and Mille Atolls. US forces land on Engebi Island in Eniwetok Atoll. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 34 B-25s and 18 B-24s, both forces with fighter escorts, pound Vunakanau Airfield; 2 B-25s and 4 P-38s hit Tobera. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): B-25s and Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) Beaufighters hit Koepang, Timor Island. P-39s strafe targets of opportunity at Madang, New Guinea and Cape Raoult, New Britain Island. 499th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 345th Bombardment Group (Medium), moves from Dobodura to Nadzab, New Guinea with B-25s. SATURDAY, 19 FEBRUARY 1944 CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): 60+ A-36s and P-51s and a few B-25s hit a variety of targets in Burma; targets include fuel and supply dumps at Manywet and in the Shaduzup area, the Tonkin-Kansi road and a junction W of Manywet, the Mu River bridge at Ye-u, railroad cars and tracks, locomotives, and river traffic between Monywa and Natyekan and between Alon and Segyi; rail and road traffic in the Bhamo and Hukawng Valley-Kamaing areas is also hit. CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): B-24s, B-25s, and P-40s fly sea sweeps over wide-spread coastal areas from the Formosa Straits to French Indochina, claiming 3 ships sunk and others damaged; railroad bridges, trains, and other targets of opportunity near coastal areas are also attacked. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Operations are again limited to reconnaissance flights. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): Colonel Peter S Rask becomes acting Commanding Officer of the XII Troop Carrier Command (Provisional) until its disbandment on 5 Mar 44. In Italy, B-25s blast troop concentrations to the N of Anzio beachhead; A-36s and P-40s keep troops, tanks, and motor transport in the beachhead battle area under attack, flying 200+ sorties in 20+ missions as an Allied counterattack turns the tide of battle; fighters maintain control over the N part of the battle area. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-24s from Tarawa Atoll and Makin Island pound Ponape and Kusaie Islands; B-25s from Tarawa hit Wotje Atoll while Makin-based P-40s bomb and strafe Mille Atoll. US forces land on Eniwetok Island in Eniwetok Atoll. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 20 P-40s and 40+ US Navy (USN) fighters escort about 70 USN dive bombers in an attack on Lakunai Airfield; fighter cover claims 22 Japanese aircraft shot down; 6 B-24s bomb the same target immediately afterward; 14 B-24s, with P-38 and USN fighter escort, hit Tobera Airfield. 12th Fighter Squadron, 18th Fighter Group, based on Guadalcanal Island with P-38s, begins operating from Treasury Island. 69th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 42d Bombardment Group (Medium), moves from the Russell Islands to Stirling Island with B-25s. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): 12 B-25s attack shipping SW of New Ireland Island, claiming a small freighter and a patrol boat sunk and other vessels damaged. 7 A-20s hit shipping at Kavieng, New Ireland Island. Single B-24s and B-25s carry out armed reconnaissance over wide areas of the Bismarck Sea. Movements in New Guinea: 26th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, 6th Photographic Reconnaissance Group, from Dobodura to Finschhafen with F-5s (a detachment is at Port Moresby); 35th Fighter Squadron, 8th Fighter Group, from Finschhafen to Cape Gloucester, New Britain Island with P-40s. SUNDAY, 20 FEBRUARY 1944 CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): Bad weather limits operations to a routine patrol over Sumprabum, Burma. HQ 33d Fighter Group and 60th Fighter Squadron arrive at Karachi, India from Italy; they will be equipped with P-47Ds. EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 226: The Eighth Air Force begins "Big Week," attacks on German aircraft plants and airfields. For the first time, over 1,000 bombers are dispatched; 21 bombers and 4 fighters are lost hitting 3 areas in Germany, i.e.: 1. 417 B-17s are dispatched to Leipzig/Mockau Airfield, and aviation industry targets at Heiterblick and Abnaundorf; 239 hit the primary targets, 37 hit Bernburg, 44 hit Oschersleben and 20 hit other targets of opportunity; they claim 14-5-6 Luftwaffe aircraft; 7 B-17s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 161 damaged; casualties are 7 KIA, 17 WIA and 72 MIA. 2. 314 B-17s are dispatched to the Tutow Airfield; 105 hit the primary and immediate area, 76 hit Rostock and 115 hit other targets of opportunity; they claim 15-15-10 Luftwaffe aircraft; 6 B-17s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 37 damaged; casualties are 3 KIA and 60 MIA. 3. 272 B-24s are dispatched to aviation industry targets at Brunswick, Wilhelmtor and Neupetritor; 76 hit the primary, 87 hit Gotha, 13 hit Oschersleben, 58 hit Helmstedt and 10 hit other targets of opportunity; they claim 36-13-13 Luftwaffe aircraft; 8 B-24s are lost, 3 damaged beyond repair and 37 damaged; casualties are 10 KIA, 10 WIA and 77 MIA. Missions 1 and 3 above are escorted by 94 P-38s, 668 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s and 73 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-51s; they claim 61-7-37 Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 P-38, 2 P-47s and 1 P-51 is lost, 2 P-47s are damaged beyond repair and 4 aircraft are damaged; casualties are 4 MIA. Mission 227: 4 of 5 B-17s drop 200 bundles of leaflets on Tours, Nantes, Brest and Lorient, France at 2123-2200 hours without loss. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 35 B-26s bomb Haamstede Airfield, The Netherlands, as a target of opportunity, after about 100 B-26s abort attacks on other airfields because of weather. HQ 314th Troop Carrier Group and 32d Troop Carrier Squadron arrive at Saltby, England from Sicily with C-47s. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): B-24s blast troop concentrations in the Anzio, Italy beachhead area as the Axis efforts end. HQ 461st Bombardment Group (Heavy) arrives at Torretto Airfield, Italy from the US. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-26s hit troop concentrations along roads in the Vallalta area; B-25s hit dumps and assembly areas at the N edge of the Anzio beachhead, and A-20s bomb a troop and motor transport concentration SE of Carroceto; A-36s and P-40s hit troops, trucks and tanks NE of Carroceto, bomb the town of Fondi, a factory E of Carroceto, the town of Piedimonte, and hit guns and targets of opportunity along the N line of the beachhead; an Axis attempt to achieve a breakthrough is decisively defeated in the center of the salient created by a counteroffensive and their efforts end. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): 9 B-25s from Tarawa Atoll bomb the airfield at Wotje Atoll; P-40s from Makin Island strafe and bomb runways and small vessels at Mille Atoll. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): 35 B-25s, with fighter escort, pound Lakunai Airfield on New Britain Island. P-39s attack barge traffic, which has greatly increased off SE and NW Bougainville Island, claiming 20 of the craft sunk. 18th Combat Mapping Squadron, 4th Photographic Group (Reconnaissance), is inactivated on Espiritu Santo Island. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 38 B-24s bomb the Alexishafen-Hansa Bay area. 18 B-24s bomb the airfield at Laha, Ambon Island and 12 others hit shipping off Kavieng, New Ireland Island. Transfers in and out of New Guinea: HQ Fifth Air Force advance echelon and HQ V Bomber Command from Port Moresby to Nadzab; HQ 8th Fighter Group from Finschhafen to Cape Gloucester, New Britain Island; 498th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 345th Bombardment Group (Medium), from Dobodura to Nadzab with B-25s. MONDAY, 21 FEBRUARY 1944 CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 50+ P-51s and A-36s and a few B-25s hit a command post at Shingban, the town of Mohnyin, a bridge at Loilaw, a camp at Shaduzup, 2 bridges at Namkwin, and warehouses and other buildings at Kawlin and Wuntho; fighter-bombers attacking a fuel dump at Pin Hmi drop bombs in the wrong area; B-25s, escorted by Royal Air Force (RAF) Spitfires and Hurricanes, score effective hits on a tunnel on the Maungdaw- Buthidaung road. EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO) STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 228: "Big Week" continues with 3 areas in Germany targetted with the loss of 16 bombers and 5 fighters: 1. 336 B-17s are dispatched to the Gutersioh, Lippstadt and Werl Airfields; because of thick overcast, 285 hit Achmer, Hopsten, Rheine, Diepholz, Quakenbruck and Bramsche Airfields and the marshalling yards at Coevorden and Lingen; they claim 12-5-8 Luftwaffe aircraft; 8 B-17s are lost, 3 damaged beyond repair and 63 damaged; casualties are 4 KIA, 13 WIA and 75 MIA. 2. 281 B-17s are dispatched to Diepholz Airfield and Brunswick; 175 hit the primaries and 88 hit Alhorn and Verden Airfields and Hannover; they claim 2-5-2 Luftwaffe aircraft; 5 B-17s are lost, 3 damaged beyond repair and 36 damaged; casualties are 20 KIA, 4 WIA and 57 MIA. 3. 244 B-24s are dispatched to Achmer and Handorf Airfields; 11 hit Achmer Airfield and 203 hit Diepholz, Verden and Hesepe Airfields and Lingen; they claim 5-6-4 Luftwaffe aircraft; 3 B-24s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 6 damaged; casualties are 3 WIA and 31 MIA. Escort for Mission 228 is provided by 69 P-38s, 542 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s and 68 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-51s; the P-38s claim 0-1-0 Luftwaffe aircraft, 1 P-38 is damaged beyond repair; the P-47s claim 19-3-14 Luftwaffe aircraft, 2 P-47s are lost, 2 are damaged beyond repair, 3 are damaged and 2 pilots are MIA; the P-51s claim 14-1-4 Luftwaffe aircraft, 3 P-51s are lost and the pilots are MIA. Mission 229: 5 of 5 B-17s drop 250 bundles of leaflets on Rouen, Caen, Paris and Amiens, France at 2215-2327 hours without loss. TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 18 B-26s bomb Coxyde Airfield, Belgium; weather causes almost 190 aborts. The Ninth Air Force's Pathfinder Squadron (provisionally activated on 13 Feb) takes part in this operation, its first venture into combat. 185 aircraft scheduled to attack other airfields in the Netherlands and France in the afternoon are recalled because of bad weather. Arrivals in England from the US: HQ 10th Photographic Group (Reconnaissance) at Chalgrove; HQ 439th Troop Carrier Group and 91st and 92d Troop Carrier Squadrons at Balderton with C-47s. MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO) TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s bomb Orte marshalling yard, and B-26s hit Imperia docks; A-20s pound troop concentrations near Campoleone, along with P-40s and A-36s which also hit a fuel dump, tank and truck concentrations, and gun positions in the area; fighter-bombers also bomb and block the Itri-Gaeta road. 100th Fighter Squadron, 332d Fighter Group, moves from Montecorvino to Capodichino, Italy with P-39s. PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-24s from Tarawa Atoll and Abemama Island hit Ponape and Kusaie Islands and Jaluit Atoll. B-25s from Abemama bomb Maloelap Atoll. P-40s from Makin Island hit Mille Atoll. US forces gain complete control of Eniwetok Island in Eniwetok Atoll. 9th Troop Carrier Squadron, Seventh Air Force, arrives at Hickam Field, Territory of Hawaii from the US with C-47s. SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 15 B-24s bomb Lakunai Airfield; 4 others, with fighter support, attack the airfield at Rapopo; 20 P-38s join USN fighters in covering a USN dive bomber strikes on Lakunai gun positions. In the Bougainville Island area 3 B-24s bomb Kara airfield while P-39s hit buildings at Tsundawan and in the area S of Tabut, and bomb barges and jetty in the Matchin Bay area. SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, almost 30 A-20s hit Madang and the Hansa Bay area. On New Britain Island, P-39s hit Raiven Plantation; 40+ B-24s bomb the Rein Bay and Eleonora Bay areas; others attack shipping off New Hanover Island. SOURCES: AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1 COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF 1982 THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973 THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2 Jack McKillop USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service) 1955-59 ------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jack McKillop | Those who have long enjoyed such | | Bellcore | privileges as we enjoy forget in | | Piscataway, NJ USA | time that men have died to win | | jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com | them. FDR | ------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 14:06:58 CET Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "LTC Donnell, Doug" <4atf@PIRMASENS-EMH1.ARMY.MIL> Subject: Re: Admiral Doenitz Referring to Chuck's posting on the German "government" after the surrender, as I recall Albert Speer's book "Inside the Third Reich" describes the activities by Doenitz and the "government". Several of the leaders of the third Reich went into hiding, but the Allies let Doenitz and crew carry on for a while -- doing little more than shuffling papers -- until they finally figured out what to do with everybody. It has been years since I read the book, so I'm a little fuzzy on the facts, but I do seem to recall that it was, in fact, at Kiel or somewhere nearby. It seems to me (my opinion only) that with the bulk of the Allies effort directed toward winning the war, that when the end finally came, the leadership, like the proverbial dog who finally catches the car, took some time to shift gears and figure out just what to do next. In all fairness, there were unbelievably complex problems with refugees, repatriations, etc. What to do with a few former leaders of the Reich (who, as I recall were under a sort of "house arrest" while carrying out their day to day business) was not a problem that begged for immediate resolution. Doug Donnell Ruppertsweiler, Germany ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 08:25:32 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Ingalls Steven CPT Subject: Re: Admiral Doenitz Chuck, Although I don't have the answer with me, it lies in Doenitz' memoirs (Ten Years and Twenty Days? - even the title escapes me now). CPT Stephen Ingalls USMA West Point FLY ARMY! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 09:11:20 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Sidney W. Kitchel" Subject: Re: Moderators wanted for soc.history.war.world-war-ii In-Reply-To: from "Joel Furr" at Feb 17, 94 07:27:48 pm Joel Furr writes: |-> |-> As you all on this list are probably aware, a move is afoot to create a |-> moderated newsgroup called soc.history.war.world-war-ii. It'll be |-> moderated to keep out the insane "holocaust never happened" revisionists |-> and others, and this means we need moderators. We're talking about group |-> moderation, where a post is randomly sent to one of several moderators |-> for posting. |-> |-> Anyone want to volunteer? |-> |-> I'm looking for people who've been On The Net for at least two years, and |-> who've got very reliable net access, and don't mind taking on a very, |-> very thankless job. How about providing an email address so we don't have to flood the group with replies and requests for more info?? --Sid -- Sidney W. Kitchel kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com Data Parallel Systems, Inc. ============|| DPSI ||=============== 4617 E. Morningside Drive (812) 334-8100 Bloomington, Indiana, 47408 USA FAX: (812) 334-8121 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 11:32:22 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Justin Gustainis SUNY-Plattsburgh Organization: SUNY at Plattsburgh, New York, USA Subject: Re: USN cmdr L RON HUBBARD, anybody? I don't think Hubbard wrote "DESTROYERNETICS," but I'm fairly certain he later founded the religion known as "DEPTHCHARGEOLOGY." Hey, it could happen. Justin Gustainis ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 11:59:00 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Don Bowden Subject: Re: Admiral Doenitz Doenitz set up his government at Flensburg-- which I believe is on the Baltic coast up close to Denmark. Don Bowden ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 12:14:31 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Larry & Kim Jewell Subject: INF: Moderators for soc.history.etc (address) Those wishing more information regarding moderation of the proposed Internet list, soc.history.war.world-war-ii, should contact: jkfurr@snarf.eecs.umich.edu (Joel Furr) His .sig evidently got cut off by the mail software. Larry J ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 12:11:25 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Archie Smith Subject: Re: USN cmdr L RON HUBBARD, anybody? In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 18 Feb 1994 11:32:22 -0500 from I have not heard of Depthchargeology but knowing the lack of stability of Destroyers in heavy seas, maybe Regurgicology. Possible? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 21:06:24 +0100 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: John Ausland Subject: ENGLAND: GETTING SETTLED Oslo, Norway. February 18, 1994 I have previously posted an article which described my voyage from New York to England in January, 1944. The following book excerpt continues the story. ENGLAND: GETTING SETTLED AN EXCERPT FROM CHAPTER 3 OF JOHN C. AUSLAND'S LETTERS HOME: A WAR MEMOIR After a couple of years training in the US, the 4th Division moved to England in January, 1944. This was a part of Operation Bolero, the buildup of allied forces for the invasion of the continent. Lt. Col. Joel F. (Tommy) Thomason chose me to represent the battalion on the advance party, along with a sergeant. Tommy says he chose me because I was the best man for the job, but I suspect it was partly because I was single and the married officers wanted to delay as long as possible. Although I wrote copious letters home during the war, there are none about our crossing on the Queen Elizabeth. Probably we were under orders not to write about this, for security reasons. Nevertheless, my memories of the voyage are vivid. Who could forget a crossing of the Atlantic in mid-winter with 17,999 others? Fortunately, I do not get seasick, but there were not many who were so lucky. The enlisted men suffered most. They were supposed to alternate between sleeping below and being on deck. The difficulty was that few could stand their dark and smelly quarters. There were two companies of nurses on board, and the roughness of the sea did not prevent romance from blooming in the officers lounge. Everyone was happy when the Queen entered a quiet bay near Greenock, in Scotland. From there we traveled by train to Devon, in southwestern England, where we spent several weeks in Collipriest, a large home near the village of Tiverton. My task was to make arrangements for the 29th Field Artillery Battalion to move into the village of Axminster, not far from Exeter. Since no troops had previously been quartered there, this was a nice challenge. In retrospect, I can only marvel at my self-confidence. (Some would call it brashness.) At that time I was twenty-three and dealing with men at least twice my age. In retrospect, I am grateful for the tact with which they dealt with this demanding Yank. Before going on, a little family background may be in order. As mentioned in Chapter 1, my father went into the Army in the summer of 1941. However, he became ill in 1944 during his second tour in China. My letters indicate that I was not aware how serious this illness was, and I am now ashamed of the flippant tone I took when writing to him. My brother, Bud, joined the US Marines before Pearl Harbor and spent most of the war in the South Pacific. Although he saw a lot of combat, he escaped being wounded. My sister, Sis, married Carlton Tilton, who became a First Lieutenant in the Air Force. To his regret, he spent the war as an instructor in the US. Ironically, during a tour of duty in Germany after the war he became ill with rheumatic fever, which plagued his health thereafter. With the family scattered to the four winds, my mother returned to her family home in Philadelphia. There she was kept busy reading my flood of letters and meeting my constant demands for packages. For several months after arriving in England, I also kept a diary. Since this was rather voluminous, what you will see in this chapter and the next are only excerpts. Diary, January 11, 1944 During a visit to Tiverton, I went into a bakery. When I asked the woman storekeeper whether I needed a ration stamp to buy something, she replied, "No, of course not." "How do you sell them," I asked, "by the pound, piece, or dozen?" "Any way you like. You can buy the whole store if you wish, except the staff, of course." Then she and several ladies looking on enjoyed a good laugh. (During a visit to a pub that night, I met Margo Southy, an English girl who drives for an American motor pool.) When the place closed up, I suggested that I be allowed to walk home with her. She kept trying to discourage me, saying it was quite a distance. It was. We walked every foot of the way, three miles. Dear Mother, January 13, 1944, APO 9366 c/o Postmaster, New York Despite the fact that this is my first letter to you from overseas, there is not much to say. We are quartered just now in a rather large home, just outside of a village. Most of us have been into town several times already. We've been here only since Sunday, so naturally we are just getting settled down. Oh, I've already had time to meet a rather attractive young lady, but then that always receives a high priority. Give my love to all. John Without the cooperation of a number of people, it would never have been possible to prepare Axminster for the arrival of the battalion. Fortunately, there were a number of empty buildings, which could be used as officers quarters and as barracks for the enlisted men. The George Hotel, in the middle of the town, served as headquarters. Although it was no doubt painful for the locals, I chose the Guildhall to serve as the enlisted men's mess. The trick was to provide it with the necessary stoves and other kitchen equipment. The only real problem arose when it came to finding a drill field. I found what seemed to me the ideal place, a large even meadow with thick green grass. When I went to see Mr. Kirby, the Town Clerk, he hesitated and then took me to the football field. While not as good as the one I had found, it was adequate. I only later learned that the one I had chosen was the cricket field. There are limits to an Englishman's patriotism. A more embarrassing incident occurred when a British officer admired my automatic. While showing it to him, I inadvertently fired it into his book case. His secretary rushed into the room, screaming "The Yank has shot the major." END ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 17:04:35 -0700 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: GENCI Subject: The Southeast Asian campaign. Hey, there. I'm new here so forgive me if I sound like a fool. My name is Genci, and I like WWII, as a matter of fact I prefer it to the Great War for several reasons...1)Hitler, because hey, he was no Bismarck. 2)Espionage, 'nuf said. 3)The brilliance of the Japanese campaign in the Pacific. 4)No other war was so well documented in it's historical context by each side. 5)My eighth grade history teacher, Mr Irving Gluckman. Well, that's why I like discussing WWII. I've gotta go, so once more, I look forward to interesting discussions and will be back regularly eith some little tid bit you all may find vaguely interesting. So long.... Genci ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 20:53:27 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Richard Kaplan Subject: WEAP: B-17 Chin Turrets Basic question here; I just joined the Military Book Club, and as one of my selections, I chose The Mighty Eighth in Color. Its been very enjoyable, and I never realized the extent of color usage beyond olive and polished aluminium. One of the interesting excerpts I ran across involved a bomb group with B-17Gs, who removed their planes' chin turrets...why? I always assumed that the G was a marked improvement over the earlier model Forts because of the forward twin 50s. Richard Kaplan Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 22:43:48 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Larry & Kim Jewell Subject: ENEWS (fwd) > Sender: Project Gutenberg Email List > <@VM.CC.PURDUE.EDU:GUTNBERG@UIUCVMD> > From: "Michael S. Hart" > Subject: ENEWS > To: Multiple recipients of list GUTNBERG > <@VM.CC.PURDUE.EDU:GUTNBERG@UIUCVMD> John asked me for this info a while back and I thought other people might find it useful as well. > ELECTRONIC NEWSSTAND. To use the Internet as a way to take a look at Educom > Review, The New Yorker, The New Republic, and many other national > magazines, connect through gopher internet.com or telnet internet.com and > login as "enews." Larry J JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU "Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life." Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 23:27:30 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: Admiral Doenitz Chuck, I'm afraid you're a bit off with your chronology. The Allies did not "allow Adm. Doenitz to carry on business as usual for about a month", as you said. Hitler shot himself at 3:30 p.m., April 30, 1945. The German armed forces, under command of Reichsfuhrer Adm. Doenitz, continued to fight for eight more days. The Allies didn't "allow" Doenitz and co. to do anything. The Germans continued to fight, and kill, for just over a week, futile as it seems now. Various surrender documents were finally signed by a number of German commanders, including Add. Doenitz. When Doenitz's surrender delegation arrived at Field Marshal Montgomery's HQ, Monty said, "Who are thesemen? What do they want?" When he found out that Doenitz proposed to surrended three german armies facing the Russians, Montgomery refused, and sent them packing back to Doenitz. The new 8-day Fuhrer acquiesed to Monty's demands, that he do any surrendering to Russians *to* the Russians -- what Montgomery insisted on surrender of only those armies facing the British; all German forces in Holland, northwest Germany and Denmark. The Germans came back to Monthy, and at half-past five p.m., May 4, 1945, signed the German surrender in the northwest. Then, at 6:00 p.m. May 6, 1945, Field Marshal Jodl under orders from Doenitz, flew from Flensburg to Reims, France, to surrender to Supreme Allied Commander, Gen Eisenhower, capitulating all German forces still fighting or facing the western Allies. May 8, 1945 -- Victory in Europe. Doenitz and the Third Reich was kaput. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Feb 1994 08:20:39 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "C. J. Weckesser" <71233.677@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Hanging Keitel and Jodl This post might stir up a great deal of debate. I'll keep it short. That Goring deserved to be *hanged* goes without even saying or bothering to debate. Keitel was more independent minded than Jodl; both, however, were Army lackey's who rarely left Hitler's presence. Keitel in particular, especially after Kursk, worked on Hitler and tried to get him to see the logic of negotiating an end to the War. Should they have been hanged? Remember, it was Jodl who signed the Instrument of Surrender at Reims. Both were Junker's. Neither had SS connections that I am aware of. I am now simply not aware of any war crimes these two men committed other than having knowledge. What was the official charge in which they executed - I don't even know? Finally, if you say, "yes" they should have been executed, I am of the opinion that officers deserve to be shot by a firing squand than hanged like a petty criminal. Any comments on this thought? We all know what a coward Goring was in taking a cyanide capsule and killing himself. Which brings up another question: wasn't it a bit gross hanging Goring's body anyway? I know the Russians would done that, but we (the Americans) carried out the executions. Comments would be appreciated. Regards, Chuck 17 February 1994 - The Sunshine State ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Feb 1994 09:34:20 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Larry & Kim Jewell Subject: GAME: Russian Front II at byrd. In-Reply-To: <9402191323.AA05813@mace.cc.purdue.edu>; from "C. J. Weckesser" at Feb 19, 94 8:20 am I don't normally do this but this is the rare exception. In the submissions directory at byrd is a zip file called rusfront.zip. This is an IBM-based game based on the Avalon Hill board games. There are three scenarios and anyone who's played the A-H games will pick up quickly on this one. You'll need EGA and 80286 at a minimum (it's sloooow on a 286). You can choose sides, play the computer, play another person, or have the computer play itself. I'll decide later whether or not to add it as a permanent part of the collection at byrd. Until then it will be at: byrd.mu.wvnet.edu /pub/history/submissions Send me e-mail for ftp help file. Larry J JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU "Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life." Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Feb 1994 18:58:19 GMT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Gudmundur Helgason Subject: Re: Hanging Keitel and Jodl In-Reply-To: <9402191325.AA15161@rvik.ismennt.is>; from "C. J. Weckesser" at Feb 19, 94 8:20 am I dont know. I feel that the allied went a bit far when "punishing" the Reich personnel after the war. Kptlt Heinz Eck was executed along with his machine gunner after killing survivors of a sunken ship while no such charges were brought up against the allied soldiers who committed similar acts. How long did Doenitz serve in prison (Spandau?) after the surrender? Can anyone point me to a really good book(s) about the Nurnberg trials and if any trials were done before that one, like right after the war? Thank you. Gudmundur J. Helgason E-mail: gummihe@ismennt.is ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Feb 1994 17:07:40 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Lakeville Senior High <0194lsh@TIES.K12.MN.US> Subject: Re: Hanging Keitel and Jodl In-Reply-To: <199402191853.AA05895@tiesnet.ties.k12.mn.us> On Sat, 19 Feb 1994, Gudmundur Helgason wrote:> > Can anyone point me to any really good book(s) about the Nurnberg trials I just finished just reading JUSTICE AT NURNBERG -- very complete and many neat details about the mechanics of the whole proceeding. Andy Charrier ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Feb 1994 19:41:35 PST Reply-To: ub076@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Sidney Allinson Subject: Re: Hanging Keitel and Jodl It was too bad that Goering took cyanide just before his date with the hangman. Perhaps even worse, was that an officer of the United States Army supplied Goering with the suicide pill. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Feb 1994 10:33:55 +0700 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Peter E. Beal" Subject: Re: Admiral Doenitz In-Reply-To: <9402190722.AA49158@nwg.nectec.or.th> Actually, Doenitz's government "functioned" in Flensburg for a couple of days after they surrendered before they were rounded up by Allied MPs. The charge against Keitel and Jodl was "waging agressive war". Telford Taylor and others have good books about the trials. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Feb 1994 10:38:26 +0700 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Peter E. Beal" Subject: Re: Hanging Keitel and Jodl In-Reply-To: <9402191323.AA19290@nwg.nectec.or.th> The charge against them was "waging agressive war". Goering's body was not hung, but merely displayed on a stretcher after the others were hung. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Feb 1994 23:15:56 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Jonah Triebwasser, Esq." Subject: Re: Hanging Keitel and Jodl In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of SAT 19 FEB 1994 13:58:19 EST > The Telford Taylor book comes highly recommended to me, but I have not yet had a chance to read it; it languishes on the pile with a few others that I am waiting to get to! Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor Marist College, Poughkeepsie New York USA jzml@maristb.marist.edu > Can anyone point me to a really good book(s) about the Nurnberg trials > and if any trials were done before that one, like right after the war? > > Thank you. > > > > Gudmundur J. Helgason > > E-mail: gummihe@ismennt.is ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Feb 1994 18:12:04 +0700 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Peter E. Beal" Subject: Re: Hanging Keitel and Jodl In-Reply-To: <9402200340.AA17175@nwg.nectec.or.th> On Sat, 19 Feb 1994, Sidney Allinson wrote: > It was too bad that Goering took cyanide just before his date with the > hangman. Perhaps even worse, was that an officer of the United States > Army supplied Goering with the suicide pill. > This last is news to me. Please let us know your source. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Feb 1994 12:37:21 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Chuck Weckesser <71233.677@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Colonel-General Guderian 20 February 1994 Before I begin this missive, I would like to state that I received two or three private e-mail messages which all but stated that I must be a neo-fascist of some sort because of an earlier post regarding Field Marshall Keitel and Jodl. Please note that my *real* objection was that they were hanged rather than shot. I don't know why, but officers should be shot by firing squad and not hanged. Others may take a different viewpoint. At any rate, victor's justice always prevails because the principles of Nuremberg have been flouted since World War II, both in America and abroad yet the word community does nothing. With respect to Colonel-General Guderian, I recently read an account, where, immediately before his dismissal as Commander of Army Group Vistula *he* actually *lectured* Hitler and told him he was the fool, and not the General Staff, for Germany's precarious plight in April 1945. Hitler foolishly insisted that final assualt would come in Prague and that Berlin was a Russian diversionary tactic. Guderian all but begged him to remove 17 Panzer Divisions in Prague to Berlin immediately as well as the 20 Divisions in Latvia. Hitler refused both requests and suggested to the General that he "take to the bath's" as he was overworked. It must be remembered that Hitler was, without question a complete *COCAINE ADDICT* by April (thanks to "Doctor" Morell) and unable to think rationally. The indignity of men of such brilliance as Guderian taking tactical orders from the little Corporal must have been extremely demeaning. What I would have given to be a fly on the wall during their last conference. Of course, at that time, the SS was settling accounts. Admiral Canaris and many other fine, decent and brave German resisters were executed. In fact, Patton arrived at Buchenwald just two days after Dietrich Boehnoffer was executed. Can anyone answer this question for me: the conference that I have just described took place. The little pet spider, Bormann and Himmler were both present (the latter being only to anxious to turn over his military command so the ensuing disaster would not be blamed on him). Guderian's adjutant, General Krebs, was also present and later wrote that he was certain that since Guderian told Hitler that everything was his fault to begin with for wagin a two front war, he would be shot immediately. Yet he was spared. Does anyone care to speculate as to why Hitler (and especially the toad Bormann and Himmler) allowed Guderian to live? Regards, Chuck Weckesser ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Feb 1994 13:48:00 -0600 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Lakeville Senior High <0194lsh@TIES.K12.MN.US> Subject: Re: Hanging Keitel and Jodl In-Reply-To: <199402201705.AA17391@tiesnet.ties.k12.mn.us> On Sun, 20 Feb 1994, Peter E. Beal wrote: > On Sat, 19 Feb 1994, Sidney Allinson wrote: > > > It was too bad that Goering took cyanide just before his date with the > > hangman. Perhaps even worse, was that an officer of the United States > > Army supplied Goering with the suicide pill. > > > This last is news to me. Please let us know your source. I've read a bunch of explanation for this, but have never cared to find the truth -- if it will ever be known. These are a couple that come to mind: 1. Hide pill inside a false tooth. 2. Hide pill in bellybutton (but I've also read that is where some was found when he was captured). 3. Slipped to him during proceedings. Andy Charrier ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Feb 1994 19:58:39 GMT Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Gudmundur Helgason Subject: Irving's Hitlers's War 1942-1945 In-Reply-To: <9402200506.AA13576@rvik.ismennt.is>; from "Peter E. Beal" at Feb 20, 94 10:38 am Hey All :) I recently rented this seemingly brilliantly written and researced book by David Irving. Could you tell me what you think about this one? The Holocaust is clearly admitted in the book on several occations (well at least the "Jew Problem" and the purging of them). This bokk is copyrighted in 1977. When did mr. Irving change his view in the Holocaust in writing? Isnt he merely saying that no documents can be found that order the Holocayst? I dont know. please privately e-mail me as I dont want to start Holocaust fight on the list (or in private either, just asking). Wasnt Irving one of the most driving forces that uncovered the fake "Hitler Diaries"? I saw a 2 episode show that seemed to give that conclusion. Did Hugh-Trevor Roper ever recover after endorsing the "diaries"? bye all Gudmundur J. Helgason E-mail: gummihe@ismennt.is ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Feb 1994 01:51:10 +0700 Reply-To: "Peter E. Beal" Sender: World War II Discussion List From: "Peter E. Beal" Subject: Re: Colonel-General Guderian In-Reply-To: <9402201743.AA43816@nwg.nectec.or.th> On Sun, 20 Feb 1994, Chuck Weckesser wrote: > > With respect to Colonel-General Guderian, I recently read an account, where, > immediately before his dismissal as Commander of Army Group Vistula *he* > actually *lectured* Hitler and told him he was the fool, and not the General > Staff, for Germany's precarious plight in April 1945. Guderian did not then and never did command AG Vistula. He was Chief of the General Staff. And this "discussion" took place earlier, I think February (but I am too lazy to get out my references, including Hitler's Generals. > > Hitler foolishly insisted that final assualt would coome in Prague and that > Berlin was a Russian diversionary tactic. Guderian all but begged him to remove > 17 Panzer Divisions in Prague to Berlin immediately as well as the 20 Divisions > in Latvia. I don't think the Germans had as many as 17 Panzer (or Panzer and PzG) divisions in Czechoslovakia or its approaches February, 1945 or latter. But there were about 20 divisions in AG Kurland. > > Hitler refused both requests and suggested to the General that he "take to the > bath's" as he was overworked. It must be remembered that Hitler was, without > question a complete *COCAINE ADDICT* by April (thanks to "Doctor" Morell) and > unable to think rationally. > > The indignity of men of such brilliance as Guderian taking tactical orders from > the little Corporal must have been extremely demeaning. What I would have given > to be a fly on the wall during their last conference. > > Of course, at that time, the SS was settling accounts. Admiral Canaris and many > other fine, decent and brave German resisters were executed. In fact, Patton > arrived at Buchenwald just two days after Dietrich Boehnoffer was executed. > > Can anyone answer this question for me: the conference that I have just > described took place. The little pet spider, Bormann and Himmler were both > present (the latter being only to anxious to turn over his military command so > the ensuing disaster would not be blamed on him). > > Guderian's adjutant, General Krebs, was also present and later wrote that he was > certain that since Guderian told Hitler that everything was his fault to begin > with for wagin a two front war, he would be shot immediately. > > Yet he was spared. > > Does anyone care to speculate as to why Hitler (and especially the toad Bormann > and Himmler) allowed Guderian to live? > > Regards, Those present thought it might result in that. I think, however, that they stepped into a private room for the climax of their discussion. Then Hitler recovered his composure and told Guderian to take sick leave but be ready to resume his duties in six weeks because "the situation would be critical by then and I will need you" (or something close to that). With that kind of send-off, I think Guderian was immune to the machinations of Himmler and Borman. It would be interesting to ask where was the cut-off point, and why it was wherever that was, between the highest ranks (like Keitel) who could be accused of waging "aggressive war" and others (like Guderian), who were not so accused? Anybody know? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Feb 1994 08:20:46 +1000 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Derek Monz Subject: Re: WEAP: B-17 Chin Turrets In-Reply-To: <199402190203.AA07490@marlin.jcu.edu.au> On Fri, 18 Feb 1994, Richard Kaplan wrote: > Basic question here; I just joined the Military Book Club, and as one of my > selections, I chose The Mighty Eighth in Color. Its been very enjoyable, and I > never realized the extent of color usage beyond olive and polished aluminium. > One of the interesting excerpts I ran across involved a bomb group with B-17Gs, > who removed their planes' chin turrets...why? I always assumed that the G was > a marked improvement over the earlier model Forts because of the forward twin > 50s. > > > Richard Kaplan > Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh. Richard, Hi, well according to my inforamtion some groups removed the chin and or ball turrets to gain a speed advantage due to the removed weight. It was only done in the later months of the war when fighter oposition was considered as less of a danger than flak. This is my 2 cents worth anyway. EMail: Derek.Monz@jcu.edu.au Msc (Geology)@ JCU 1993 Disclamer: - I didn't do it! " If there is anything more important than my Ego..... I want it taken out and shot!" (Zaphod Beablbrox (HHGTTG)). ((-------)) \o/ | _/ \_ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Feb 1994 17:45:49 -0500 Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Mark Stanford Subject: Re: B-17 Pilots > I hope that there is someone who can help me on this channel. My >Grandfather was a B-17 pilot in the 9th Air Corp during the second World >War. Recently I saw a student who was reading a book about B-17 pilots >and I have been looking for it ever since. The name of the book was >something like "The Lucky Bastard's Club." Have any of you ever heard of >this book? If so, who is the author and do you happen to know the >publisher? I have the book and am currently reading it. I obtained it from the Military Book Club and think it was around $30 with shipping. The title is "The Lucky Bastard Club" and it is written by Eugene Fletcher. It is his story about the training and combat he experienced from 1943 - 1945. The publiser is the University of Washington Press in Seattle. The book is quite interesting with Mr. Fletcher going into a lot of detail. Lots of good photo's too. ******************************************************** Mark C. Stanford Internet: MARKSTANFORD@delphi.com Delphi : MARKSTANFORD "There ain't no Coupe DeVille lying in the bottom of a Cracker Jack Box" - Jim Steinman ******************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Feb 1994 18:28:29 EST Reply-To: World War II Discussion List Sender: World War II Discussion List From: Chuck Weckesser <71233.677@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Hitler: Peace in '43? I realize that "what if" questions (o