Subject: WWII-L Digest - 5 Mar 1994 to 6 Mar 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 1994 00:01:11 -0500

There are 19 messages totalling 584 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. USMA faculty -> 25% civilian (?)
  2. INF: MILHST-L
  3. Rohm shot
  4. QUEST: Malmedy Massacre
  5. "Nazi": Offensive Word???? (5)
  6. Gen:  PC on my PC (2)
  7. WEAP: Peenemunde, V2 etc
  8. MEDIA: More Belgian WWII follow-ups...
  9. Eisenhower & German POWs (2)
 10. TAC: Convoys vs. U-Boats
 11. Civil Air Patrol
 12. Franco's Spain & The Axis Powers
 13. B-26s

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Date:    Sat, 5 Mar 1994 21:37:35 -0600
From:    Lou Coatney <[email-masked]>
Subject: USMA faculty -> 25% civilian (?)

So Con,  any slots for wargames-librarians/historians?  :-)

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Mar 1994 10:24:23 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: MILHST-L

The correct address:

[email-masked]

([email-masked] should also work)

To subscribe you should send mail to listserv at the above address(es).

Larry J

[email-masked]; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Mar 1994 10:39:25 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Rohm shot

> Hello, Christopher!
>
> Hope you are having a great weekend.

Tolerable, aside form a cold.  Likewise to you.

> > Why?  Because he was of insufficiently elevated circumstances?  That's a
> > question that I've wondered about.  Were there a lot of people from modest
> > backgrounds (middleclass, Jews, etc.) as commissioned officers in reserve
> > formations?
>
>     You ask about his having been commissioned during the war. I am
> not privy at this point in time to the exact date of his
> commissioning, but I would bet it was rather late in the war, I'd say
> after 1916. With casualties being what they were on both sides in
> WWI, standards had to be relaxed. They were in France, England and in
> Germany. Many people began to receive commissions who didn't fit the
> "profile" of the Prussian officer. Thus people like Roehm were able
> to obtain a commission that under other circumstances would have been
> denied him. If you remember, the only people allowed to be considered
> for commissioning before 1914 were only those of noble birth in
> Prussia. Those from Bavaria of noble birth for some reason usually
> wound up in the artillery, after commissioning. Again, this was
> before 1914.
>
I'm still wondering what the standards for reservists were.  Maybe I'll try to
find out when I get a chance.

> > I'll do a subject and title search of the Cuyahoga County Library
> system when > I finish here.
>
>     That would be most interesting, and please post. It would be
> revealing, I am certain, and thanks in advance.
>
I didn't find much directly related to him.  I think I found one or two
books that I didn't already know about.  The library computer left a message
on my answering machine, so I'll see what came in yesterday.

> > I consider it a classic.  Anyone who can read that book and claim that the
> > holocaust is a hoax, would have been euthanized by the nazis as a mental
> > defective himself.
>
>     Regarding your reference, I have no doubt about the validity of
> your high praise for this book. Have you also read George H. Stein's
> "Waffen-SS"? That is another that is worth reading. And I agree with

I'll check this one out.  Thanks.

> economy in 1932 in Germany, I can't see how Roehm and the SA could
> have maintained the status quo. The Army may have been able to
> control him or at least some sort of working agreement or a coalition
> would have had to have been formed to keep the country from falling
> apart.

It could have turned into a horrible botch, like most of Mussolini's
escapades.

>     Thanks, again, Christopher. You are an interesting conversation
> partner. Please write again, and please offer me your thoughts on
> mine.
>
Thanks for your suggestions.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Mar 1994 13:25:12 EST
From:    Chuck Weckesser <[email-masked]>
Subject: QUEST: Malmedy Massacre

I am familiar with the murder of American GI's by the Nazi's (Mr Saifen might
find the word "Nazi" objectionable, so I really mean "Germans") at Malmedy.

To the very best of anyone else's knowledge, were other American POW's either
murdered or mistreated by the Wehrmacht. Also, was Hitler's infamous "Nacht und
Nebel" decree ever carried out?

It is an established fact that our boys who were taken prisoner in the far east
were horribly mistreated by the "Japanese," although it seems that as time goes
on, how quickly some of us are willing to forget.

Regards,

Chuck

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Mar 1994 13:29:15 EST
From:    Chuck Weckesser <[email-masked]>
Subject: "Nazi": Offensive Word????

I just received a "private" e-mail that using the word "Nazi" is an "ethnic"
attack on present day Germans. FYI. . .

Regards,

CJW

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Mar 1994 13:58:08 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: "Nazi": Offensive Word????

>
> I just received a "private" e-mail that using the word "Nazi" is an "ethnic"
> attack on present day Germans. FYI. . .
>
> Regards,
>
> CJW
>
Discussion of WWII without using the word "Nazi"? Maybe the word "death"
should be banned to avoid offending people.

I do not allow slurs to be posted on this list (repeat offenders will be
deleted). If anyone equates the present German general population with
the Nazis I would agree that that is offensive. However, used in context
of the war, "Nazi" is a word that is both valid and accurate when speaking
of members of the National German Socialist Workers' Party.  If anyone calls
a living person, or a dead one for that matter, a "Nazi" then you had better
be  able to back that claim up with documentation.

The war was a brutal, ugly affair, something people tend to forget.
"Sanitizing" the war would result in making the deaths of so many people
futile.

Santayana must be spinning in his grave.

Larry J

[email-masked]; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Mar 1994 14:16:37 EST
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor,
         Marist Coll" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: "Nazi": Offensive Word????

> I just received a "private" e-mail that using the word "Nazi" is an "ethnic"
> attack on present day Germans. FYI. . .
>
> Regards,
>
> CJW
My God is there no end to the damage the acolytes of political
correctness will to do the truth and to the language? There are
plenty of WWII era Nazis alive today in Germany and there are
lots of neoNazis in Germany today. Just have your email sender
take a look at the recent newspapers. Germany deserves to be
ashamed of what it did just 50 short years ago and they (and we)
need to be reminded of it as often as possible so as to prevent that
butchery from happening again. I am amazed that someone would tell you
or imply that the term Nazi should no longer be used! Just my 2 cents.
I should probably have ignored it the way you have, but I can't
stand too much of this PC nonsense!
Regards-

Jonah Triebwasser
Adjunct Instructor
Marist College
Dyson Building (Adult Education)
Poughkeepsie, New York12601
Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
E-Mail: [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Mar 1994 13:57:00 LCL
From:    SCHERRER TIM A <[email-masked]>
Subject: Gen:  PC on my PC

Political Correctness on my Personal Computer.

If the Nazi offends Germans, then what is our option?  Germans with
Fascist leanings?  Middle European Hitlerites? Fascist sympathetic
Teutons?

 I would be interested to see who ever sent the mail speak up and state
their position to the group.   Whenever I use the word Nazi I am
referring to people during WWII, not today.  The Nazi's called themselves
Nazi's, and quite frankly, I don't care if I offend a Nazi by calling
them one.  It seems to me that it is more a comment on the person making
the claim of offensive language, and an unwillingness to accept the past
for what it was rather than a "PC foul".

On the other side,  I am a bit encouraged at the same time that Germans
are offended by the word Nazi.  In the day of growing xenophobia in
Germany, I  find it refreshing that at least one person refuses to
identify with the former regime.

I'm not sure how to take this one--it seems rather shocking to me that
the issue would even be raised by someone on a WWII conference.  Then
again, the older I get, the less I am surprised by anything.

Tim A. Scherrer
1LT, USAR
USTRANSCOM

PS--I'm trading my green suit for my grey one on Tuesday--I'll be back
where I normally am.  (Grey suit being my civilian, not my reenacting).

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Mar 1994 16:10:53 -0500
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Peenemunde, V2 etc

On Fri, 4 Mar 1994, Gudmundur Helgason wrote:

> Did any of the other "secret-weapons" exist or were under development?
> Like Death rays and stuff like that? Or was it just hype :) No chemical
> stuff?
>

One of the most "secret-weapons" which the Germans had just perfected by
the end of the war was the jet fighter (ME 262 if I remember correctly).
They were also working on the atomic bomb.
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Mar 1994 16:43:52 -0500
From:    Joshua Norton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: "Nazi": Offensive Word????

Jonah, I'm not sure what you mean by "ashamed".  I agree that the whole world
not just Germany should be reminded of the atrocities committed by the Nazis.
Should I be ashamed that Americans held men as slaves or killed American
Indians?  I think not.  I'm appalled at these acts, but I didn't commit them.
Maybe someday Americans will figure that out and quit the racially biased
quota system which denies many Americans of their equal rights.  I'm with
Martin Luther King when he says that a man should not be judged by the color of
   his skin.  A man should also not be judged by his ancestry or at least this i
   s
how I feel.  Still we must remember
the wrongs of the past so that we will not repeat them.

JPN

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Mar 1994 23:49:59 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA: More Belgian WWII follow-ups...

Amnesty for those convicted for collaboration during the post-WWII
repression is a long-standing demand of the Flemish nationilists. Partly
because many people were convinced to choose the side of the Germans
because of their attempts to take advantage of the Belgian language
conflict; partly because it has been known that many trials were less than
correct. Revenge was then more important than justice. The Walloon parties
tend to reject this, and so of course do former members of resistance
groups and many who lost family in WWII.  Recently, the new king Albert II
asked for a 'reconciliation'. He did so in public, and that implies that
the government agreed with it.

A proposal of the Volksunie (People's union, the moderate Flemish
nationalist party) involves total amnesty for three groups: People who
were minors when they were convicted; nurses who worked for the German Red
Cross, and -- far more controversial -- people who fought with the Germans
on the Eastern front; 'against communism' of course. It also asks for
automatic rehabilitation, i.e. reinstatement of civil rights and full
pensions, of all convicted in these years, without the recignition of
guilt that normally has to precede a rehabilitation.

Some headlines were made too when minister of justice Melchior Wathelet
asked for the revision of the trial of Irma Laplasse, who was convicted to
death on 21 December 1944 and shot on 30 May 1945. She had been accused of
informing the Germans of the presence of resistance members in a local
school.

On 8 September 1945, the Germans had left the village of Oostduinkerke,
and retired to a reinforced position nearby. A 'Secret Army' group had
then attempted to take over the city, and had captured 23 Germans and a
number of collaborators, including Frederik Laplasse, son of Irma, who was
a member of a paramilitary organization cooperating with the Luftwaffe.
They were imprisoned in the local boy's school. At four o'clock, a German
column arrived at the school, and a gunfire began.  Resistance leader
Counye ran away 'in search of reinforcements', one was killed, six other
resistance members were shot on the spot on the orders of the German
commanding officer, Major Corneille. Canadian soldiers arrived and
liberated the village the same night.  That day, Irma Laplasse had met a
German soldier, Josef Beyer, who on the look-out in the dunes. He new her
well, because he was quartermaster and the farm of the Laplasses daily
supplied food the Germans. He asked what all the excitement was about and
was told that her son had been arrested.  The case was later investigated
by Counye (a postman, BTW), and he concluded that Irma Laplasse had
betrayed the resistance to the Germans.  This conclusion was accepted
without much further inquiry by the military examiner, Vossen.

It has now been revealed that the timing of the events, as stated by
Vossen, was incorrect; that Vossen nor Counye (despite the latters claim
to the contrary) did interrogate Corneille (Vossen calls him 'Von
Gruendell'), that an allied investigation into the acts of Corneille (who
shot himself later) was never submitted to the court; that Beyer did not
inform his commander about having met Laplasse (he had left his post to
talk to her); that the Germans had already observed the activity in the
village; that the arrival of the Germans at the school was probably a
coincidence, because they probably did not know that prisoners were held
there; and so on.

I do not know what the effects reopening of the case will be. Anyway, the
courts are years behind on their normal work.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Mar 1994 18:46:03 EST
From:    Ray Kale <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: "Nazi": Offensive Word????

>
> Jonah, I'm not sure what you mean by "ashamed".  I agree that the whole world
> not just Germany should be reminded of the atrocities committed by the Nazis.
> Should I be ashamed that Americans held men as slaves or killed American
> Indians?  I think not.  I'm appalled at these acts, but I didn't com>    his
 skin.  A man should also not be judged by his ancestry or at least this i

Well put. I agree with your statesments.

Ray

   s
> how I feel.  Still we must remember
> the wrongs of the past so that we will not repeat them.
>
> JPN

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Mar 1994 19:50:18 EST
From:    BGF0000 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Eisenhower & German POWs

Greetings:

I'm currently working on a research project that was inspired by James Bacque's
book "Other Losses".  Its basic premise is that Eisenhower "quietly engineered
the deaths of one million German prisoners", who were capture during the last
weeks of the war.  By changing the status of these prisoners from POW to DEF
(Disarmed Enemy Forces), Eisenhower was able to avoid living up to the
standards of the Geneva convention and to keep the International Red Cross
away from the camps where conditions were bad.

As far as I can find out, the debate is pretty much at a stalemate with each
side accepting that there was atrocious conditions in these camps (No
argument there), but because statistics and interview interpretation is
subjective each side is able to bolster their own view point.

The Pro-Bacque side argues that the Other Losses is a story of "premeditated
atrocity and on-going conspiracy to prevent word of it ever leaking out."
It argues that Eisenhower's intense hatred of the German people and
willingness to carry out the "denazification" of Germany (Morganthau plan) was
at the origin of the horrible conditions.

The other side, led by Steven Ambrose, levies a great defense.  First by
disputing the statistics provided by Bacque then providing a "more likely
origins" and motivations of the conditions.  For instance, Harry Hinsley
thought it was more likely that administrative incompetence and sheer size
of the problem, millions taken in matter of weeks, produced the horrible camp
conditions.  Their argument continues to down size the atrocity and focuses
on the circumstances that were beyond human control, as well as recognizing
the callousness of the American and French commands.  They not only point to
the food shortages in Europe, but they also to the Morganthau plan, saying
that those above Eisenhower forced him to be tough on the Germans.

I don't want to get into the argument of interpretation of specific facts.
That doesn't seem to lead anywhere.  For instance, Bacque points to a damaging
situation where a train load of food from the International Red Cross and
earmarked for German POWs was forced turned back and return to Geneva.  Ambrose
retorts that the Allied Governments decided that the food would be fed to
Displaced Persons.  Yet, Bacque could respond saying that the fact that the
food was used someplace else does not refute the premise that these soldiers
were denied food/aid from the Red Cross.  As you can see we can continue the
circle.

What I would like hear:
1. Some opinions about the book and the debate.
2. The possible influence of the Morganthau Plan on the POW/DEF status.
3. The Soviet involvement in setting up the Morganthau Plan through.
   Morganthau's Assistant Secretary Harry Dexter White.
4. The issue of generalized responsibility vs. individual responsibility.
5. Location and conditions of British Camps.
6. The reasoning why German POWs were held for so long.
7. Why did American publishers resist publishing the book in the United States.
8. How extensive was the food shortages.

I look forward to hearing the debate.

Curt A. Klun
McGill University Undergraduate
[email-masked]
(Make sure the 0 in BGF0 is a zero and not the letter "O")

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Mar 1994 18:56:36 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Eisenhower & German POWs

Personally, I _don't_ look forward to the debate.

george bauer

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Mar 1994 21:01:38 -0500
From:    Bob Smart <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TAC: Convoys vs. U-Boats

> John Horner <[email-masked]> writes:
>
> This makes sense in terms of escaping detection, but I am still thinking
> back to earlier posts on the subject. It was said that captains didn't want
> to join convoys because they didn't want to take orders.  Given that they
> were used to giving orders and not taking them, I can understand this.
>
> But I *must* be missing something, because no one has said anything about
> the biggest obvious advantage of convoys - if your ship gets hit you have
> a chance at getting picked up.  If you are on your own in the North Atlantic
> and your ship goes down, your done.  With other ships around it would seem
> that you at least have a chance to get picked up by an escort or something.
>
> Lets see now, with a convoy you have an escort or three, you have someone
> to fish you out if you get sunk, and your chance of getting spotted in the
> first place is not much greater than if you were alone.  On the flip side,
> if you are on your own you have a slightly smaller chance of getting spotted,
> you die if you sink, and you don't have to take orders.  Wow what a choice.
>
> Is my argument flawed?  It would seem to me that a convoy would be the
> way to go.

There was a disadvantage to convoys. Convoys getting to port are like christmas
eve at the mall. Too many ships not enough offloading ( and onloading space)
This meant a serious loss of effiency at a time when shipping was in short
supply. And remember the merchant ships were operated as a business. Idle ships
means no revenue. Ship owners hated having a ship sit, fully loaded and manned
in a harbor waiting for a convoy to form.

Just another thing to consider,

Bob Smart ([email-masked])
> Jeff Dingbaum
> [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Mar 1994 21:59:59 -0500
From:    Joseph Wolm <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Civil Air Patrol

Hello there,
thank you for sumerizing the history of the CAP in a better way than
I could have.
sincerly,
Joseph M. E. Wolm

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Mar 1994 23:06:34 EST
From:    Chuck Weckesser <[email-masked]>
Subject: Franco's Spain & The Axis Powers

I am told that Hitler and Franco met but once when the former attempted to
induce the latter into joining the war on the side of the Axis. As I recall,
Hitler, for the *FIRST* time, was outfoxed and failed to "mesmerozie" Franco
with his verbal prowess. In fact, I think Hitler said he'd rather have a
"dentist pull some teeth" than meet with Franco again.

And that was the last of Germany's attempt to lure Franco into the coalition. I
wonder how the whole scheme of things would have changed had Franco cast his lot
in with his fellow facists.

On the same note, was Dr. Salazar in power in Portugal during the war. I can't
seem to recall. If not, who was, and what were diplomatic relations between
Lisbon and Berlin like?

Regards,

CJW

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Mar 1994 20:35:55 -0600
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: B-26s

In message <[email-masked]> World War II Discussion List
writes:
> Thanks Robert, I'll take 2 B-26s please.  Will you accept my Visa? :->

Gee... I dunno if my credit card verifier can take 7 digits before the
decimal point.  I'd be happy to try... :-)

--
Robert J. Granvin                                             [email-masked]
University of Minnesota, School of Statistics
         "I'm my father?  I'm my mother?  I'm chipped beef on toast?"

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Mar 1994 22:01:29 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Gen:  PC on my PC

>
> Political Correctness on my Personal Computer.
>
> If the Nazi offends Germans, then what is our option?  Germans with
> Fascist leanings?  Middle European Hitlerites? Fascist sympathetic
> Teutons?

It seems a bit well, odd to me.

Of course I recall a German in FidoNet (INTERUSER or ASIAN_LINK) who decided
he'd show what a clever chap he was by trying to "Vietnam" the Americans in
the group to death.

Imagine his surprise when I made sure to refer to Auschwitz in every post to
him.  I was of course being "unfair", and wasn't that all a LONG time ago, and
wasn't he FAR too young to be responsible?

He wasn't too interested in hearing that I as too young to have masterminded
the U.S. intervention in S.E. Asia, nor even to have fought in it.  He damned
me for a horrid, "unfair", American, then as I believe the Brit.s say,
"scoffed it", never to be heard from again.... :)

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End of WWII-L Digest - 5 Mar 1994 to 6 Mar 1994
***********************************************