Subject: WWII-L Digest - 1 Mar 1994 to 2 Mar 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 1994 00:00:44 -0500

There are 43 messages totalling 1253 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. U Boats In USA Waters??
  2. Pol: World Monetary System
  3. INF: El Alamein strengths (2)
  4. <No subject given>
  5. WEAP: USAAF 2 MAR 44
  6. Boring ("sixties" & "childish naivete") (2)
  7. INF: Italian, German troops in N. Africa (3)
  8. U boats (2)
  9. Addr: RE: Monty
 10. ADMIN: Courtesy and Civility
 11. TRV? Top Nazis in WWI (was Roehm shot)
 12. GEN: Shameless Plug
 13. Chilling Einsatzgruppen Request, Read! (2)
 14. German vs Soviet Military Quality (CPT Steve Eden)
 15. GEN: Concentration camps
 16. GEN:  U-Boats in American waters
 17. Personalities:  Bill Winchell,
 18. POL(?) South American involvement in WWII (4)
 19. Boring? (2)
 20. POL: Brazil in WWII (4)
 21. INF: Mines in Flanders (2)
 22. GAME: German vs Soviet Military Quality (CPT Steve Eden)
 23. B-26s
 24. Nost:  Teddy Bears
 25. Italians vs. British in East Africa:  "Best of Enemies"
 26. GERMAN EAGLE VS. RUSSIAN BEAR, 2d ed., now avail. on ERIC
 27. Where have all t...
 28. U-Boats
 29. TRV: Education...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 00:45:33 EST
From:    Joseph Wolm <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: U Boats In USA Waters??

U-boats whhere seen and did complete missions (very successful) missions
during WWII.
I dont have it in me right this minute but there are two or three articles
in a magazine called WWII in which describe German sub groups in American
waters.
I may be wrong but i heard a few stories about wreckage and bodies floating
onto the east shore.  In two articles they talk about burning wrecks
off the coast????
sincerly,
Joseph Wolm.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 1 Mar 1994 13:48:18 -0500
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Pol: World Monetary System

On Tue, 1 Mar 1994 [email-masked] (Lou Coatney) wrote:

> David Rising,
>
>      How about the basis of the world monetary system?
>
> Lou Coatney
>
That was in response to my assertion that there was nothing of great
enough  importance in Switzerland to warrant a German invasion during
WWII. Which leads me to my next question--How about the basis of the
world monetary system? I'm not much on economic history, but I'd be
willing to bet that the Germans didn't give a hoot about the world
monetary system after 1939. Am I mistaken? Also, did the Swiss have
enough control/power to do anything to the Germans (economically) even if
they wanted to ?
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 01:19:06 CST
From:    Steve Alvin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: El Alamein strengths

Steve,

A couple of points about your total strength:  The tank strength
for each side is a bit misleading.  If you include just the 1942
equivelent of MBT's the British had 205 Grant/Lee's, 267 Shermans,
and 105 up-armed Crusaders with the 6 pounder.  The Germans had
slightly less than 250 Mk III's, some with the "long 50mm" and
Mk IV, a few with the "long 75's".  Also, you have to factor in
the German Anti-tank guns, as they played a major role in
Rommel
's battlefield tactics.

The numbers may have been similiar to those of the Tobruk battles,
but once again there is a major differnce:  The Germans werre
that much further from their supplyhead.  They were never really
able to rely on Tobruk as a port.

Also, another consideration was the Allied invasion of North
Africa, which occured at the same time.  Any supplies and
rienforcements that could have helped Rommel stabalize the line
after Alamein went to Tunis instead (which was much easier to
supply than Tripoli and ports further east.) Montgomery could
count on fresh shipments of tanks and had a unlimited supply of
munnitions and petrol.  Rommel could expect no reinforcements,
had petrol for 11 days of *normal* operations and 9 days of
ammunition.

In the air, not counting transports, the Germans had 350 planes,
the British 530.  In anti-tank guns the Germans had 550 and the
Italians 300.  The British had 1500.

--
Steve Alvin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 05:30:23 EST
From:    "Chuck Weckesser, M.A." <[email-masked]>
Subject: <No subject given>

Mail Chuck Weckesser

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 07:11:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: USAAF 2 MAR 44

THURSDAY, 2 MARCH 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 9 B-24s fly a futile shipping search over the
Kurile Islands; turned back by a weather front, they either jettison or bring
back their bombs.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 5 P-51s bomb artillery positions in
the Maingkwan area; 20 P-40s hit a fuel dump at Myitkyina, artillery at
Shingban, and trucks on a road near Walawbum; 8 A-36s and P-51s hit an
encampment on Pagoda Peak near Mogaung.
  HQ 81st Fighter Group arrives at Karachi, India from Italy.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In French Indochina, 4 B-25s sink a small
steamer near Mon Cay and bomb railroad shops and coal treating plant at
Campho. In China, 10 P-38s damage 2 bridges and strafe 2 barracks areas N of
Nanchang; 2 P-40s bomb and strafe the airfield and barracks at Kengtung.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 244:
  1. 327 B-17s are dispatched to the Franfurt am Main marshalling yard; only
101 hit the primary target because of PFF failures; 103 hit Frankfurt
Offenbach, 49 hit Ludwigshafen, 20 hit Limburg, 12 hit Fischbach and 8 hit
other targets of opportunity; 8 B-17s are lost with 1 KIA, 5 WIA and 80 MIA.
154 B-24s are also dispatched to the same target; 36 hit the primary and 46
hit targets of opportunity; 1 B-24 is lost and 3 damaged beyond repair;
casualties are 16 KIA, 4 WIA and 11 MIA. The bombers claim 2-0-2 Luftwaffe
aircraft. Escort is provided by 33 P-38s, 445 Eighth and Ninth Air Force
P-47s and 111 P-51s; 1 P-38 is damaged; the P-47s claim 13-2-3 Luftwaffe
aircraft, 3 P-47s are lost and 7 damaged, 2 pilots are MIA; the P-51s claim
4-0-1 Luftwaffe aircraft, 2 P-51s are damaged and 1 pilot is MIA.
  2. 84 of 106 B-17s dispatched hit the air depot at Chartres, France; 1 B-17
is lost and 12 damaged; casualties are 1 WIA and 10 MIA. This mission is
escorted by 89 P-38s, 145 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s and 47 Ninth Air
Force P-51s; they claim 2-0-0 Luftwaffe aircraft on the ground; 1 P-38 is
lost.
  Mission 245: 5 of 5 B-17s drop 250 bundles of leaflets on Caen, Amiens,
Rouen, Chartres and Rennes, France at 2015-2054 hours without loss.
  HQ 92d Combat Bombardment Wing (Heavy) moves from Camp Blainey to
Sudbury, England.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, 353 B-26s attack NOBALL
(V-weapon) targets, Tergnier, and Amiens/Glisy and Rosieres-en-Santerre
Airfields in morning and afternoon missions.
  Moves in England: 79th Troop Carrier Squadron, 436th Troop Carrier Group,
from Bottesford to Membury with C-47s; 391st Fighter Squadron, 366th
Fighter Group, from Membury to Thruxton with P-47s (first mission is 14
Mar).

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 459th Bombardment Group
(Heavy) (with B-24s) becomes operational, giving the Fifteenth Air Force 13
heavy bomber groups on combat status. In Italy, nearly 300 B-17s and B-24s,
escorted by 150+ P-38s and P-47s, support the US Fifth Army's Anzio
beachhead, bombing the Cisterna di Roma-La Villa area, Velletri, and troop
concentrations, guns and other military targets in the battle area at several
points, including the Stazione di Campoleone and Carroceto areas.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-26s attack an assembly
area E of Carroceto and, with B-25s, bomb guns and an assembly area NW of
Cisterna di Roma, A-20s hit troops in the beachhead battle area; P-40s and
A-36s blast troops and guns throughout the Anzio battle area, also hitting
Cisterna and Littoria; P-40s and A-36s fly uneventful cover over Anzio. P-47s
hit a motor vessel off Sibenik, Yugoslavia leaving it burning.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-24's from Makin and Abemama
Islands, Gilbert Islands bomb Ponape and Kusaie Islands, Caroline Islands.
B-25s bomb Maloelap Atoll.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island in
the Admiralty Islands, P-40s join US Navy (USN) fighters in covering a USN
dive bomber strike on shipping installations in the Keravia Bay area; 12
B-25s pound Rabaul while 11 others, with USN fighter support, bomb Rapopo;
shortly afterwards, 20 escorted B-24's blast the town area of Rabaul; 14
P-38s follow immediately with a strike on the same target. P-39s hit
Japanese-occupied Piano and Monoitu Missions on Bougainville Island.
  67th Fighter Squadron, 347th Fighter Group, based in the Russell Islands,
begins operating from Bougainville Island with P-39s; the squadron will
convert to P-38s in Apr.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 80+ B-24s and
P-40s hit the Hansa Bay area, the airstrip at Nubia, and the Madang-
Alexishafen area. 60+ B-25s and A-20s pound enemy forces on Los Negros
Island as Allied ground forces occupy Momote Airfield; P-47s providing cover
for the B-25s claim 7 enemy fighters shot down.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 07:48:20 EST
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Boring ("sixties" & "childish naivete")

On Tue, 1 Mar 1994 14:02:00 PST <[email-masked]> said:
>intelligent and spiritual beings. Listen to Dead Can Dance, the Beatles,

Actually, I'd prefer to listen to, and play, the original music the DCD
sometimes re-arranges (-:

>On pg. 24 in Michael Lyon's "WW2: A Short History" is the by-the-way fact that
>Germany actually profited from WW1.The American bankers Charles Dawes and Owen
>Young repaid Germany twice more in loans "to rebuild the German economy" than
>the $33 bil. that Germany was originally required to pay in reparations to the
>Allies. -Peace to all who live- -Dylan Fierro  "Facts, son, plain facts."

Fair's fair.  If you are going to cite a fact like that in isolation, you have
to explain Keynes' =The Economic Consequences of the Peace= as well.  For
those who haven't happened upon it, an engrossing explanation of why Versailles
was pretty much a crock, in terms of economics.

ken koester
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 07:56:36 EST
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: Italian, German troops in N. Africa

On Tue, 1 Mar 1994 20:40:06 EST5EDT you said:
>I was just reading a synopsis of Rommel's African campaign in a book
>entitled "German Generals of WWII" and the author's description of
>the Italian troops was negative verging on contemptuous. According
>to the book, it seems they were ineffectual in anything but static
>defense mode. The author described them as "slog-footed" with respect
>to their mobility and attack effectiveness.

The Italians suffered generally from poor leadership & poor equipment.
Officers in Ariete, Littorio, and Trieste don't seem to have really had a
"mobile war spirit", exacerbated by the poor state of their radio net.
When led by German officers, Italians fought a lot better than most would
give them credit for.  Also, some Italian units were pretty good.  The arty
put in a credible performance as a whole; the Bersiglieri regiments were
about up to German/British/Commonwealth standards.  On the other hand, the
pure infantry divisions didn't have any motor transport to speak of, so
they were automatically consigned to static defense, which was fairly
useless in the desert.

ken koester
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 08:12:28 EST
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: El Alamein strengths

On Wed, 2 Mar 1994 01:19:06 CST Steve Alvin said:
>A couple of points about your total strength:  The tank strength
>for each side is a bit misleading.  If you include just the 1942
>equivelent of MBT's the British had 205 Grant/Lee's, 267 Shermans,
>and 105 up-armed Crusaders with the 6 pounder.  The Germans had
>slightly less than 250 Mk III's, some with the "long 50mm" and
>Mk IV, a few with the "long 75's".  Also, you have to factor in
>the German Anti-tank guns, as they played a major role in
>Rommel
>'s battlefield tactics.

Skimming part of =The Rommel Papers= last night gives the Germans 38 tanks
armed with 75's.  Overall, the British are cited with 5.5 times the numbers
of German tanks, 2.5 times the number of German/Italian.  German tanks
overall is cited as 210.  The discrepancy from above may be runners vs.
deadlined.

>. . . . Montgomery could
>count on fresh shipments of tanks and had a unlimited supply of
>munnitions and petrol.  Rommel could expect no reinforcements,
>had petrol for 11 days of *normal* operations and 9 days of
>ammunition.

The =Papers= give the Afrika Korps 3 "issues" of petrol & further explain
that it would use an issue a day.  8 issues was considered the bare
minimum desirable for the Korps.  Arty ammo was in such short supply that
Stumme (commanding the first day at Alamein) did not allow any response to
the initial attack.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 09:08:34 EST
From:    Bill Vasilion <[email-masked]>
Subject: U boats

           Thanks Terry that is interesting. I remember the
        FBI would write storis about theier capturing sabotouers
       off the east coast, being dumped thier by uboats..

        Something for the list, I know what countries were at war
         but during WW-II what was happening in South America????

          I mean i dont remember hearing about George patton of brazil.
        my real question is did life go on there as normal, or were
        they affected by shortages and rationing also????
I know paraguay or argentina was somewhat used by the nazi's
        i think,,as a friendly port.... I have not run across anybooks
       on this so I thought i would run this by you.

            thanks bill

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 09:23:05 EDT
From:    RICHARD KING <[email-masked]>
Subject: Addr: RE: Monty

One quote (I don't know where it originated) I've heard concerning
Monty: "He was willing to fight the war to the last American."
****************************************************************
Richard King, [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 10:08:44 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: ADMIN: Courtesy and Civility

I'm a crusty retired sailor and my language has been discribed as "colorful"
by some kind souls. I force myself to read my postings carefully before sending
them to listserv.  Besides trying to obey the standards we've set for
ourselves on this list I have another rather important reason for watching
my language.  As the "veteran" members of the list know, all postings to
this list are saved and archived at byrd. People who wish to follow the
discussion, historians looking for the odd fact, and others of various
persuasions can check into back-issues of the lists postings and "poke around".
The fact that everything I say will be available for decades or more makes
me consider what I post before sending it.

The vast majority of postings to this list have been thoughtful and well
founded, or at the very least entertaining. I would ask you to keep this
tradition up and consider how you posting will look to people who may not
even be born yet. Courtesy and civility are the core elements that keep
this list workable and the continuation of these standards are essential.
Keep up the good work and please don't consider this post to be directed
at any one person, but rather as a reminder that your words are graven
in stone once you send them.

servabo fidem,
Larry J

[email-masked]; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 09:57:17 -0600
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: TRV? Top Nazis in WWI (was Roehm shot)

Chris Morton writes about Roehm being of the "old school"...

> Yes, you're totally wrong on that! :)
>
> Roehm was the antithesis of the Prussian junkers.
>
> He was a homosexual, had a reputation for child molestation and wanted
> to replace the Reichsweher/Wehrmacht with a working class party army using
> the SA as the base.

Hi Chris,

All true but there is also some truth to his "old school" background
as Roehm had been a Rittmeister (Captain) in a Cav outfit during the
First World War.

Interestingly, Hitler was one of the few enlisted men in the inner
circle of the Nazi Party.  As much as Hitler disliked officers he
certainly surrounded himself with them.  Goering was a Hauptmann -
Captain and last commander of the von Richtofen Jagtgeschwader where
he won his Pour le Merite (aka Blue Max) and Hess was a Lt. in the
Infantry and shot through the left lung at one point.  Roehm as
mentioned already, a Captain.  Julius Streicher had been a Sergeant in
Hitler's company during WWI.  Himmler was too young to have served in
WWI. Goebbles was exempt from military service due to his physical
conditions (4F in the States).  Sepp Dietrich had been a Sergeant in
the tank corps and even wore his WWI tanker badge all through WWII.

And during the early days Hitler courted the respected figures of
Germany's Imperial Army like Ludendorf to lend credibility to the
fledgling movement.  One of Wilhelm II's sons was even a General in
the SA - a Hohenzollern Crown Prince!

Ludendorf actually marched at the head of the column in Hitler's ill
fated attempt to take over the Bavarian Govt. in Munich 8/9 Nov. 1923.
And when I say marched I mean he marched right through the hail of
police gunfire and strolled right up to the police to be arrested
while everybody else was scrambling like cockroaches when the kitchen
light comes on!   This was when Goering was badly wounded being shot
in the leg and was taken to Sweden where he met his first wife Karin.
It was also during this time that he got hooked on morpheme.  Rumors
persisted within the Nazi party that he never kicked the habit but
they were just that - rumors.  Neat story.

The official Nazi version of the Putsch had Hitler diving on top of a
little girl to protect her from the police bullets with his own
body.... hmmmmm.

Ciao,  Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 10:02:38 CST
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN: Shameless Plug

Responding to the occasional requests for pictures of Miss Mitchell, our
B-25, I direct people to the April 1994 issue of Air Classics and an
article written by Chuck Sloat on the CAF's 30th Anniversary Airsho in
Midland, last October.  Nice article prominently featuring the Southern
Minnesota Wing throughout as well.  :-)

We now return you to your regularly scheduled non-self-promotion.  :-)

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
[email-masked]                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 10:46:13 EST
From:    Chuck Weckesser <[email-masked]>
Subject: Chilling Einsatzgruppen Request, Read!

I have just come across what is known as a "primary" source document. This
document chronicles how chillingly the German einsatzgruppen units murdered Jews
and, typically German, a "request" to make their killing more efficient. I shall
quote the entire document, which is not that long. *ALL* comments would be
appreciated as to your reaction reading something like this:

WHAT FOLLOWS IS AN ACTUAL WAR DOCUMENT:

Berlin 5 June 1942
no copies

Secret Reich Matter
        1. Memorandum:
        Concerns: Mechanical modifications on special vehicles currently in use
or being manufactured:

        Since December 1941, 97,000 were "processed" (quotation marks are mine,
and not in the document) in three vehicles in an exemplary manner without any
problems concerning the equipment. However, the following modifications are
suggested.

        1. To expedite entry of gas, two additional vents of approximately 10 cm
x 1 cm are suggested, with valves to avoid excessive pressure.
        2. It is suggested that the freight area be reduced to lighten the load
capacity. The problem is not in the strength of the undercarriage but in the
truck's cross-country capability. This refers to the trucks built by Saurer. The
shorter freight area might be thought to cause a problem in overloading the
front axle. In fact, this does not apply, because the freight tends to shift to
the rear, trying to reach the rear doors.
        3. The connecting hoses between exhaust and truck have been rusting
through due to collected fluid. Their position should be moved.
        4. Modifications (scuppers) are needed to facilitate the washing out of
the trucks inside rear, cleansing it of fluids and other matter.
        5. The "observation" (quotes are mine) peepholes can be eliminated, since
they are rarely used. This should save problems of making them leakproof and
shorten "PRODUCTION TIME" (emphasis mine).
        6. Inside lights are to be better shielded from vandalism and
destruction. The lights are needed only for the first few minutes to avoid a
"rush" (my quote marks) toward the rear in the darkness when the doors are first
closed and the processing begins.
        7. A grid on rollers would be desirable to facilitate faster unloading.
The company we asked to build it thought it "impracticable" (emphasis mine). Can
another supplier be found?

        There are ten Sauer special vehicles now on order. May we have one
"prototype" (emphasis mine) with all the above modifications?

                                        Head of Group II D
                                <signed> SS Colonel Rauff
                                Request For Acknowledment

-----------------------------------
This document speaks for itself. I couldn't possibly add a thing.

I feel sick to my stomach.

Sincerely,

CJW

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 10:11:25 -0600
From:    Lou Coatney <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: German vs Soviet Military Quality (CPT Steve Eden)

Good post, Steve Eden!  (Something we can agree on!  :-)  )

     The Soviets' "homegrown version of mobile warfare" was, of
course, the fulfillment of (the purged) Marshal Tukhachevskii's
"deep battle" doctrines.  (See the excellent writings by COL
David Glantz and Richard Simpkins, a John Erickson protegee.)

     I will NEVER forget a game of PANZERBLITZ I had in 1972, in
the Augustana College (Illinois) library.  A friend and I combined
two sets of the game.  He was the Germans and set up first,
meticulously positioning his armor and anti-tank weapons along
every possible portal in the rugged to the sides, while sowing the
open center with mines, backed by some 88s.

     As the Vatutin-in-residence, I then lined up my armor and,
ignoring the "safe," covered-and-concealed flanks, RACED my massed
armor full-bore right down the center.

     I lost about 1/3 of my tanks to mines and the 88s, but that
left more than enough to envelope and annihilate him from the
rear.

     He was aghast.  To Westerners, ignoring a minefield would
have been contrary to "doctrine" and "the value of human life,"
I suppose.  However, I probably lost less in the long run, and
that was the FASTEST AND MOST DECISIVE PANZERBLITZ game of my
life!

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 10:29:34 -0600
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: Italian, German troops in N. Africa

> Also, some Italian units were pretty good.  The arty
> put in a credible performance as a whole; the Bersiglieri regiments were
> about up to German/British/Commonwealth standards.
>
> ken koester
> [email-masked]

Ken brings out a good point that many are quick to dismiss with jokes
like: whats the worlds smallest book - Itlian war heros.

There were a number of elite Italian units like the Battalion San
Marco, the Alpini, the Bersagelleri (sp?) and the German midget
submariners were trained by the Italian Navy.  The Italian Air Force
and Navy are all volunteer services and very professional compared to
the Army which is made up of draftees.

Still in all its true that the top scoring Italian ace in North
Africa was shot down and killed by his own anti-aircraft artillery
while trying to land at his own airstrip.  Don't recall hearing if
the gun crew was decorated for being the first to log a confirmed
kill..... :-)

Ciao, Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 11:32:11 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN: Concentration camps

My two cents on concentration camps:

I was at Dachau in the late 70's, and the crematoriums are still
standing.  It may not have been an "extermination" camp, ala
Auschwitz, but they were surely preparing to dispose of the
inmates who did not make it.

I personally don't see a whole lot of difference between Dachau
and Auschwitz.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-8760
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-8760

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 11:41:22 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN:  U-Boats in American waters

A short story from my mother concerning German U-boats operating
off the East Coast of the US:

My mother lived in Pleasantville NJ, just outside of Atlantic
City, today's home of the casinos.  Atlantic City had their very
famous Boardwalk, remember Monopoly, and the merchants refused
to black out their emporiums.

Well, imagine you are a U-boat commander, and oil tankers are
moving up and down the coast from the refineries in the Gulf and
the South to New York, New England, and Canada for shipment to
England.  The tankers are silhouetted against the brightly lit
Boardwalk and New Jersey coast.  What a target!!  And since you,
the U-boat commander, are in the shadows of the ocean, the
tankers can't see you for the bright glare, and convoys are not
in operation, what a field day.  No wonder U-boat crews called
this "The Happy Time."

My mother remembers many a night seeing the explosions and fires
of merchant ships being torpedoed.  Yes, the U-boats were here!!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-8760
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-8760

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 10:22:00 LCL
From:    SCHERRER TIM A <[email-masked]>
Subject: Personalities:  Bill Winchell,

  This is the 14th time this has been sent, so I hope it makes oe I might
unsubscribe from life!!!!

Subject: Re: Bill Winchell, Waist Gunner
Date: Wed, 02 Mar 94 07:32
Return-Receipt-To: [email-masked]

Hi everybody---it's been a couple of days that have passed since I first
started trying to respond to this post---I've been learning a new e-mail
system on my Army Reserve annual training.

Several days ago someone said that then Sergeant Bill Winchell, of the
Memphis Belle was a ball turret  gunner.  I beg to differ.  In one of my
bedrooms I have hanging an autographed photo of him with the writing "Lt
Scherrer, Happy Landings, Lt Bill Winchell, Left Waist Gunner, Memphis
Belle".  I may have the left and right mixed up, but the rest I am
positive about.  He received a commission after he returned stateside.

I would look at it and tell you for sure which side he did gun on,
however I am 238 miles away from home.  When I get back, I can tell you
forsure.

Tim A. Scherrer
1LT, USAR

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 10:47:39 -0600
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: POL(?) South American involvement in WWII

>         Something for the list, I know what countries were at war
>          but during WW-II what was happening in South America????
>
>           I mean i dent remember hearing about George patton of brazil.
>         my real question is did life go on there as normal, or were
>         they affected by shortages and rationing also????
> I know paraguay or argentina was somewhat used by the nazi's
>         i think,,as a friendly port.... I have not run across anybooks
>        on this so I thought i would run this by you.
>
>             thanks bill

Hi Bill,

I saw a photograph in a 1944 issue of _Yank_ magazine that showed a
formation of soldiers from Brazil marching down a street in Naples.
I'll try to find it again and see if it accompanied an article but I
think Brazil did contribute a contingent of troops to fight Nazism.
They even have their own WWII victory medal as I recall.

US naval types were in South America flying anti-submarine patrols
too but I'm real fuzzy on the American Theater.  Somebody want to
jump in and bail me out???

cheers,  Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 12:11:06 -0500
From:    Bob Smart <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Boring?

> > By the way, what does a B-26 go for?
>
> Today?  Well over $1.5 million.

Are there any flyable B-26s left? I don't mean the A-26/B-26 Invader but the
original Middle River prostitute

Bob Smart ([email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 11:16:42 CST
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Boring?

> > > By the way, what does a B-26 go for?
> >
> > Today?  Well over $1.5 million.
>
> Are there any flyable B-26s left? I don't mean the A-26/B-26 Invader but the
> original Middle River prostitute

"One and a half."

The CAF has Carolyn, a true B-26 and is currently flying.  It is the only
one that really _is_ flying.

Tallichet also has a B-26 which is currently up for sale.  It is flyABLE,
I guess, but needs work.  Many of his airplanes arrived in semi-flying
condition, but not all got the attention required to keep it that way.
This airplane has been in various stages of restoration and has every
opportunity to fly again.  What makes this one particular interesting is
that it is the _short wing_ original model.

Until you've stood under the wings of Carolyn, you can't even conceive
of a short wing B-26.  It's almost unfathomable to think that they
actually made a wing SHORTER than one that still looks like it couldn't
lift a helium balloon into the air... :-)

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
[email-masked]                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 12:36:13 EST
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: Italian, German troops in N. Africa

On Italian fighting spirit - in the East African Theater - the Italians
who fought the British and Indian troops in Abyssinia and British
Somolia often fought bravely and with much skill.  While their equipment
was not up to snuff with the Allied forces, some units and officers
surprised the Allied forces with their fighting abilities.  The siege
of Keren cost the Allied forces nearly 5,000 casualties at Italian hands.

Ron Babuka

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 13:27:02 -0500
From:    "W. C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: POL(?) South American involvement in WWII

Ernest K. Gann's FATE IS THE HUNTER contains some little
vignettes about the military air transport service operating
out of Natal, Brazil on the southern Transatlantic run.  He
also has some interesting stories about flying in Brazil in
the days immediately before WWII when the War Department was
trying to coerce the South Americans into abandoning the
German equipment in favor of American Lodestars.  He has
a short section on how his plane was sabotaged.  And yet
another paragraph or two describing an American fighter
contingent guarding a bauxite mine somewhere in South
America.

Bill
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 13:33:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: POL: Brazil in WWII

Both Brazil and Mexico sent a fighter squadron equipped with P-47s to fight
with the Allies in WWII.  One squadron went to Italy and the second to the
Philippines; I think the Brazilians were in Italy but am open to negotiation.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 10:38:00 PST
From:    Stephen Fox <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: Mines in Flanders

I've been following this topic with more than the usual interest.
My brother-in-law lives in Poperinghe, Belgium, which is smack
in the middle of the Flanders fighting area.  In fact, the British
had (still have!) an R & R house in the town, called the "Talbot House,"
which is an interesting visit itself.

Back to the mines.  The crater left behind by one of these explosions
is now a "shrine" in the area, called the "Pool of Peace."  It's
a small pond, but you get the idea when you realize it's man-made.

In 1974 we visited one of the many private plots where farmers
have opened up their property to tourism.  This was one advertised
as the "place" where Hitler earned his Iron Cross 2d Class.  Don't
recall any irrefutable proof of this, though.  More interesting is the "mine
shaft," quite well preserved, which descends 60-70 feet, and is just wide
enough to admit a man on a rope.  In order to discover tunneling opera-
tions, a man would be lowered (a German in this case) into the shaft,
armed only with a stethoscope to do the listening.  The farmer told
us that he had discovered the shaft while rabbit-hunting one day; the
rabbit disappeared down the hole, by then overgrown with vegetation
(maybe even briar bushes!).

Can share lots more about the problem of unexploded shells in this
region of Belgium if you are interested.  This "problem," however,
is dwarfed by the situation existing in the Verdun region of France
that has been discussed recently.

********************************************
*       Steve Fox                          *
*       History Department                 *
*       Humboldt State University          *
*       Arcata, CA  95521                  *
*       (707) 826-4788                     *
*       FAX: (707) 826-4496                *
*       [email-masked]              *
********************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 13:19:39 EST
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: GAME: German vs Soviet Military Quality (CPT Steve Eden)

As this thread has changed direction, I have felt free to coin a new flag (-:

On Wed, 2 Mar 1994 10:11:25 -0600 Lou Coatney said:
>     I will NEVER forget a game of PANZERBLITZ I had in 1972, in
>the Augustana College (Illinois) library.  A friend and I combined
>two sets of the game.  He was the Germans and set up first,
>meticulously positioning his armor and anti-tank weapons along
>every possible portal in the rugged to the sides, while sowing the
>open center with mines, backed by some 88s.
>
>     As the Vatutin-in-residence, I then lined up my armor and,
>ignoring the "safe," covered-and-concealed flanks, RACED my massed
>armor full-bore right down the center.

Hmphf!  Obviously an amateur--mines need to be zeroed in by enough firepower
to create impassible terrain from the wrecks (-:  Now, *I* would have insured
that my AT weapons were sited to fire to the rear as well, covering the entire
board with an impenetrable curtain (-:

As long as we are reminiscing, tho, I played the computer a game of Kampfgruppe
a few years ago that was a perfect Kesselschlacht:  the Russians raced in
across open terrain towards a gap between two hills.  My spotters called in
a *perfect* TOT salvo that dusted the infantry off the tanks, the tanks
came behind the hills. . . and my AT and armor opened up on them from 360
degrees, scoring numerous hits on the flank and rear armor.  The computer
was game, rushing each of my positions in turn, but I wiped out several
regiments at the cost of about a company.

For that matter, the most perfect adaptation of Panzerblitz against humans
I ever played was a computer version on the Champaign-Urbana PLATO system
called PZK.  Simultaneous moves, limited spotting range, limited intelligence--
absolutely great stuff, made me give up on board tactical games.  I wound
up contributing 2 of the 12 published scenarios, too--one set in Dec. '41
at night, where the objective was to be sole possessor of a village (so
you didn't freeze to death), and one at dawn in '43, where the Russians
were raiding across a river & had to capture a supply dump & remove it to
their side again.

ken koester
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 13:35:58 -0400
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: B-26s

Thanks Robert, I'll take 2 B-26s please.  Will you accept my Visa? :->

John Horner
SUNY at Delhi, New York

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 12:38:00 LCL
From:    SCHERRER TIM A <[email-masked]>
Subject: Nost:  Teddy Bears

I went to Military Clothing Sales here at Scott AFB, and walked out with
the new model "Bear Force" Teddy bear.  The new one is a WWII Army Air
Force Aviator Bear.  He has brown shoes, khaki/pink pants, green shirt,
khaki tie, A-2 flyer's jacket, Green Crush cap, and Army Officer's
insignia.  The sales lady said that Ira Green, Inc., the manufacturer
just came out with them.  Mine cost $34.95 plus $.95 for the box.  I got
the only one they had at Scott AFB.  They are pretty cute, and a perfect
gift for the wife, girlfriend or daughter, (and yourself).  My girlfriend
was going to get a bear, but now she'll have to settle for an Army troll.

Tim A. Scherrer
1LT, USAR

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 12:53:18 -0600
From:    Lou Coatney <[email-masked]>
Subject: Italians vs. British in East Africa:  "Best of Enemies"

An excellent film, starring David Niven, among others.

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 13:59:53 -0500
From:    Joshua Norton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: POL: Brazil in WWII

        There was a Brazilian Expeditionary Force in Italy near the end of the
war at least.  At one point during the winter of 44-45 it was on 10th Mountain
Division's right flank.  It's in the Army Green Books.  I happened to be
checking out the 10th at the time and didn't really read much about the "BEF".

JPN

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 11:14:11 -0800
From:    Jim Benn <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Boring ("sixties" & "childish naivete")

>
> On pg. 24 in Michael Lyon's "WW2: A Short History" is the by-the-way fact that
>
> Germany actually profited from WW1. The American bankers Charles Dawes and Owen
>
> Young repaid Germany twice more in loans "to rebuild the German economy" than
>
> the  $33 bil. that Germany was originally required to pay in reparations to the
>
> Allies. -Peace to all who live- -Dylan Fierro  "Facts, son, plain facts."
>
My grandfather worked in the Hamburg shipyards in Germany until 1922 when
he came to America.  I remember his stories about the inflation which
followed WW1, and how he would need to take his pay and run to the
bakery, otherwise the week's wages might not be enough  to buy a few
loaves of bread.  He also hated the British, for how they came in and
stripped the shipyards of everything they could take.  He and many of his
friends left their homes and emigrated to the U.S. just to be able to
support their families.

As an aside, he also was associated with a Trotsyite revolutionary group,
and participated in the strike/mutiny which helped end the war.

In any case, he would have thought it amusing to hear Dylan's comment
that Germany profitted from the war.  I think this is an example of
taking an isolated fact out of context to support a political view of the
world.

It ain't that simple.

 *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*> Jim Benn  [[email-masked]] <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=*
 |-=[        Auto-Graphics, Inc.       ]=[      /~~)       /~~)           ]=-|
 |-=[        8 West Main Street        ]=[     (__(_UTO - (__/RAPHICS     ]=-|
 |-=[        Niantic, CT  06357        ]=[              .___/             ]=-|
 *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*>  PHONE: 800-733-6939 = FAX: 203-691-0183  <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=*

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 14:44:14 EST
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: POL(?) South American involvement in WWII

Bill,

With regards to the Brazilian involvement in WW2:

The Brazilian Army contributed an infantry division to the cause;
and it fought in the Italian theater, most of the time under Mark
Clark and the 5th US Army.

Barry

Barrett F. Lowe               RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, West Point  (e-mail:  [email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 11:48:37 -0800
From:    Jim Benn <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: Mines in Flanders

On Tue, 1 Mar 1994, Steve Alvin wrote:

> Probably the best known example of mine warfare in the US was
> the Battle of the Crater in Oct (?) 1864, when a Union mine
> was exploded under the CSA lines at Petersburg.  The resulting
> explosion was horrendus, but the Union was late in getting its
> assault underway.  By the time the a
> assault column waa in the crater, the Confederates had overcome
> their initial confusion to pour massive fire into the crate.
>
> Union losses were sever.

As  an aside (sorry to go so far afield from WWII, but Steve started it)
the main reason for the union failure at The Crater was a last minute
decision to replace the Black Union troops who has been specially trained
for the assault with a white formation.  The original troops had been
prepared for the noise, etc. which the explosion would produce, and had
been trained to fan out from the crater and take and hold a wide area for
other troops to pour through. The Union commanders thought thatthe plan
was too complicated for Black troops, and substituted an untrained unit.
Without preparation, they were stunned by the enormity of the explosion,
and grouped in the crater.  The Confederates ringed the crater, and I
guess had a turkey shoot.

 *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*> Jim Benn  [[email-masked]] <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=*
 |-=[        Auto-Graphics, Inc.       ]=[      /~~)       /~~)           ]=-|
 |-=[        8 West Main Street        ]=[     (__(_UTO - (__/RAPHICS     ]=-|
 |-=[        Niantic, CT  06357        ]=[              .___/             ]=-|
 *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*>  PHONE: 800-733-6939 = FAX: 203-691-0183  <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=*

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 16:06:19 EST
From:    Joseph Wolm <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: U boats

Hello
On the fact of South America I have a few things to say.
First of all South America was one of the hardest hit continents on the
planet by the depression and never recovered until after the war.
Each country in south America had different troubles but,
they almost all had one thing in common.
They all are dependent upon someone else for there economic survival.
When the ddepression hit the U.S. and Europe they stopped buying raw
goods from S.A.(South America) almost entirly.
Subsequently the governments of South America where nearly totaly unstable.
The people and governments ol many Latin American countries where too
busy dealing with there own problems to support (for thhe most part)
anybody else.
They may have been sympathetic many different causes.  Some of them even
with the NAZI'S.  But all in all South America had almost nothing to
give to anyone in support.
sincerly,
Joseph M. E. Wolm

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 14:47:56 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Chilling Einsatzgruppen Request, Read!

Please cite your _specific_ source for this document so that others can
examine the original source.

Thank you.

george bauer

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 15:51:59 -0600
From:    Lou Coatney <[email-masked]>
Subject: GERMAN EAGLE VS. RUSSIAN BEAR, 2d ed., now avail. on ERIC

OK, sports fans, get right over to your nearest university/
  research library.  The revised edition of my playable AND
  historical game is available on microfiche (only) for your
  perusal on the U.S. Govt.-sponsored Educational Resources
  Information Center (ERIC) collection.

The first edition was ED 287 786.  The second edition is
  ED 361 256.

I had submitted my own (suggested) abstract, but Fred Risinger's
  Social Studies Clearinghouse at Indiana University improved it
  considerably -- and I suffer editing not readily.

So, if you want an introductory "classic" boardgame on The
  Great Patriotic War on the Eastern Front in World War II, you
  know where to look at one.

Lou Coatney, 309-836-1447
  626 Western Ave.
  Macomb, IL  61455  USA

WARNING:  The microfiche for the new edition may not have been
  distributed yet.  :-)

ALSO:  This is an unassembled KIT.

Hjalmar Gerber, Kerry Anderson, Fred Baube, Richard Lechowich,
  What is your frankest opinion of the game?  (Assembly wasn't
  THAT bad, was it?  :-)  )

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 17:06:50 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: POL: Brazil in WWII

The South American nations also provided bases for sub-hunter groups. The
South Atlantic was patroled from these bases. Check "U.S. Naval Chronology
of WWII" at byrd for specific dates of establishment and locattions of bases.
When air units are credited with kills the operating base is named.

Larry J

[email-masked]; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 19:04:45 EST
From:    Kevin Brown <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Where have all t...

Re:Days of John Paul Jones - I think the writer made a slight misquote.  I
believe the brochure actually says "the first foreign warship captured by the
USN on the high seas since the War of 1812".

The U-505 is a really good tour, as is the entire Museum of Science and
Industry.  As a point of personal interest I had an uncle in the USS Jenks,
one of the ships in the force that captured the U-505.

K.B.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 14:25:43 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: POL(?) South American involvement in WWII

>
> >         Something for the list, I know what countries were at war
> >          but during WW-II what was happening in South America????
> >
> >           I mean i dent remember hearing about George patton of brazil.
> >         my real question is did life go on there as normal, or were
> >         they affected by shortages and rationing also????
> > I know paraguay or argentina was somewhat used by the nazi's
> >         i think,,as a friendly port.... I have not run across anybooks
> >        on this so I thought i would run this by you.
> >
> >             thanks bill
>
> Hi Bill,
>
> I saw a photograph in a 1944 issue of _Yank_ magazine that showed a
> formation of soldiers from Brazil marching down a street in Naples.
> I'll try to find it again and see if it accompanied an article but I
> think Brazil did contribute a contingent of troops to fight Nazism.
> They even have their own WWII victory medal as I recall.

Both the Brazilians and Mexicans took part in WWII.  There was an article
a year or two ago about Mexican airforce participation in "Air International".

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 19:43:28 EST
From:    Kevin Brown <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: U-Boats

<US ships refused to douse their lights
I have never heard of Merchant ships refusing to "darken ship".  The cities
and towns along the coast however resisted black outs for some time.  The
merchants were silhoutted(sp) against the light and made easy targets.
The Merchants DID however resist the convoy system as much as they could.  No
Captain likes to take orders from someone else, plus there is the danger of
collision, conflict of schedules, etc.
Also they pointed out there weren't enough USN ships to provide escort, so
why bother?  Of course convoys were instituted eventually and proved
effective.

K.B.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 02:31:57 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: TRV: Education...

Today the results of a study on public knowledge about WWII in Belgium
were published. Secondary school students were asked several questions
about WWII. Only 58% happened to know who was in power in Germany in 1944.
Even less could give the name of a concentration camp...

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 22:10:33 CST
From:    Steve Alvin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: POL: Brazil in WWII

The Brazilian 1 Grupo de Caca of the Brazilain Airforce and
equipped with P-47D-25-RE's was formed as the fourth squadron of
the 350th FG, the last P-47 group formed in the 12th Air Force.
They were initially based at Tarquinia, Italy.  They replaced the
"United States' star" in the roundel with a "Brazilain star" of
yellow, green, blue, and white.

--
Steve Alvin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 1 Mar 1994 to 2 Mar 1994
***********************************************