Subject: WWII-L Digest - 20 Mar 1994 to 21 Mar 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 1994 00:00:43 -0500

There are 29 messages totalling 1023 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. WWI-Mine Warfare
  2. INF: USAAF 21 MAR 44
  3. WEAP: Heavy A/C guns? (5)
  4. INF: Ike's prewar carreer (4)
  5. WWI-Mining(2)
  6. GEN: MODEL DECALS
  7. <No subject given>
  8. GEN: ELECTRONIC VERSION OF LETTERS HOME
  9. GEN: Mistreatment German POWs? (4)
 10. Wehrmacht troops killing Waffen-SS troops?
 11. Command cooperation between allies
 12. Nost:  Warbird's crash (2)
 13. TAC: Cooperation of forces. (2)
 14. Hist: Movie, "Piece of Cake"
 15. Nost: Warbird's crash
 16. INF: APO Addresses
 17. Unsubscribe

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 21 Mar 1994 10:01:32 GMT
From:    Stephen Baldwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: WWI-Mine Warfare

Rejoice with me...
After 1/2 hour's searching, I found the missing book that contained the
short section about missing mines.

My source is "The War Walk" by Nigel Jones - a book by a journalist
whose father served on Haig's staff during the Great War.

Anyway, the British started serious mining operations in 1915.
General Plumer, one of the few WWI commanders with imagination.
decided that this was the best way to take Messines Ridge, south
of Ypres. The
unreliability of mechanical diggers/drills meant that the work was
carried out "by hand". A total of 21 mines were dug under the ridge.

2 of them were deemed to be too wide of the ridge
to be of use and so were charged
but "held in reserve". Their positions were lost during the fighting of
1918. One of them, a mere snip at 20,000 pounds of explosives,
was detonated by lightning during the 1950s. The other one still
has a surprise for someone.

Of the remainder, they were blown at zero hour on June 7th 1917.
Sizes of these mines were 53,000 pounds, 70,000 pounds, and
a "big one" of 96,500 pounds at St. Eloi. In all a total exceeding
1,000,000 of high explosive was in place a hundred feet below
German lines, and in some cases stretching out over 1000 feet
from the British lines. The resultant explosion from this
lot blew the plunger officers, half a mile away, off their
feet, and the sound was even heard in Dublin!

The fighting that followed, was a non event. The advancing British
soldiers were met by huge numbers of shocked and bewildered Germans,
weeping and stumbling around. Between 10 and 20,000 men had been
entombed alive by the blasts and 7,300 prisoners were taken. By
midday, the ridge had fallen and a rare British success had been
achieved. Unfortunately, this success was followed by the
ghastly fighting in the mud of Flanders that was the British equivalent
of Verdun. They called this one Paschendaele.

In addition to finding this book, I also discovered an article
in the Imperial War Museum Annual Review entitled Tunnelers
of the Western Front. Anything of interest, I will let you know.

steve baldwin
[email-masked]

**********************************************************************
"Gentlemen, I don't know whether we are going to make history
tomorrow, but at any rate, we shall change geography"
Major-General "Tim" Harrington, Plumer's Chief of Staff on the
Messines attack
**********************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 21 Mar 1994 07:06:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USAAF 21 MAR 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
TUESDAY, 21 MARCH 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 25 B-25s and P-51s destroy 1
bridge and damage another near Meza, pound buildings and targets of
opportunity in the Mawlu area and hit a locomotive and several trucks in
the Banmauk-Indaw area; 6 P-38s bomb Monywa oil dumps, causing several large
fires; and 80+ fighter-bombers and 2 B-25s hit the town of Manywet, storage
area at Myitkyina, buildings at Kamaing and Myitkyina, and warehouses,
bypass, and bridge at Hopin.
  HQ 12th Bombardment Group (Medium) arrives at Tezgaon, India and 83d and
434th Bombardment Squadrons (Medium) arrive at Kurmitola, India from Italy
with B-25s; first mission is 27 Apr.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 270: 56 of 65 B-24s hit
V-weapon sites at Watten, France; 7 B-24s are damaged; escort is provided by
48 P-47s without loss.
  Mission 271: 41 P-51s carry out a sweep of the Bordeaux, France area; they
claim 12-0-0 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 9-0-4 on the ground; 7 P-51s
are lost and 2 damaged; casualties are 1 WIA and 7 MIA.
  Mission 272: 6 of 6 B-17s drop 300 bundles of leaflets on The Hague,
Amsterdam, Leeuwarden, Rotterdam and Utrecht, The Netherlands at 2102-2133
hours without loss.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): All B-26s dispatched to bomb NOBALL
(V-weapon) targets in France are recalled because of bad weather.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Bad weather limits operations
to photographic and weather reconnaissance missions.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s make an
unsuccessful attempt to bomb the Poggibonsi bridge; weather cancels other
B-25 missions and all A-20 operations; B-26s attack Arezzo and Bucine
viaducts and Poggibonsi and Cecina railroad bridges; P-47s hit railroad
bridges N of Rome while P-40s bomb targets in the Anzio area; and A-36s drop
food in the Cassino area.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-24s from Tarawa Atoll hit
Mille and Maloelap Atolls and Ponape Island. Tarawa-based B-25s also pound
Maloelap Atoll.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 30+
fighter-bombers and 24 B-25s pound the Lakunai Airfield area; 22 B-24s bomb
Vunakanau Airfield; and fighters carry out barge sweeps in the Rabaul area.
On Bougainville Island, 14 P-39s hit Numa Numa; small strikes are flown
against Monoitu and a bridge at Meive, and fighter-bombers support ground
forces and bomb a bivouac along Empress Augusta Bay.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 140+ B-24s,
B-25s, A-20s, P-38s and P-40s attack numerous targets in the Wewak-Tadji-
Hansa Bay-Schouten Island areas; and P-39s and Royal Australian Air Force
(RAAF) fighter-bombers blast Japanese positions in the Madang area. P-40s and
A-20s on armed reconnaissance attack targets on New Britain Island and on
Garove Island to the N.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 21 Mar 1994 08:12:17 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Heavy A/C guns?

>
> On Sun, 20 Mar 1994, Larry & Kim Jewell wrote:
>
> > This talk of AT guns on planes has me wondering if anything larger than
> > the 75 mm howitzers used in the Pacific were ever mounted on aircraft
> > during the war. I keeping getting flashes of something similar to HMS
> > Furious (light cruise in WWI that mounted 18" guns in single turrets.
> > Bizarre arrangement.)
>
> Larry,
>
>     The Italians fitted a 102mm gun in the nose of the four-engined Piaggio
> P.108A bomber, for anti-shipping purposes.  It was fixed with a slight
> depression (which required new shooting tables). I don't think that it was
> ever fired in anger. Not many P.108s were built, and most were 'normal'
> bombers. Before WWII, the USSR built an aircraft with a recoilless 102mm
> cannon (a weight was fired backwards) for air-to-air use, but common sense
> soon won.

I believe that the Germans did a number of experiments in this regard, mostly
in the anti-shipping role.

Some involved recoilling counterweights.  Others involved more normal
recoilless principles.  Some involved rockets as counter recoil devices, I
believe.

One of the tests involved a 128mm(?) gun, which when fired, blew the tail off
of the aircraft, a DO-X17(?).... :)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 21 Mar 1994 10:03:59 MET-1
From:    Bognar Attila <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: Ike's prewar carreer

Hello everybody,
Can anybody feed me with some information on Ike's prewar career,
please?
I would need to know what he was doing, where, when...
Just the basic facts, nothing serious.

Thanks.   Attila  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 21 Mar 1994 13:19:31 GMT
From:    Stephen Baldwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: WWI-Mining(2)

>From Imperial War Museum Annual Review Number 6:

The aims of mine warfare were
- to destroy opposing trench systems and strongpoints
- inflicting casualties
- breaking the morale of the enemy.

The Germans had initially seen the possibilities of mine warfare in 1914
offereed by the area's geology - the blue clay of Flanders & Northern France,
and the chalk further south. The British responded with countermining.
The Royal Engineers, already stretched with work, gave way to specialist
mininng units, formed primarily with men with civilian mining experience.
The speed with which this decision was reached caused the Inpsector of
Mines to comment that this was the quickest intentional decision taken
during the whole war! Five mining companies were formed in 2 weeks.
Between Feb 1915 and June 1916, 25 British and 8 Empire mining companies
were created.

A mining "section" usually consisted of one officer and about 50 other ranks.
A mining company consisted of 1 RE Officer, 12 NCOs, 8 other officers,
and 300 men.

Shallow mining consisted of a shaft of approx. 12 feet deep below the bottom
of eg a cellar. The tunnel itself was no larger than necessary for one man to
work at the face at a time. A hand pump was used to keep the water level down,
and other workers were engaged in filling and removing the spoil in sand bags.

This operation would continue for several weeks, slowly approaching the enemy
lines.

Deep mining would involve sinking considerably deeper shafts - sometimes as
much as 90 feet deep.

Regular officers often commanded the mining companies - much to
their disgust - "16th April: ...to be quite honest, I was disgusted..
but it came as an order" Major Cowan having been told to form the
175th mining company. He changed his mind however. On May 1st 1915, he
wrote: "I began by inspecting the new draft of men who seem just about
the healthiest lot of 'navvies' I've ever seen. A 'navvy' is in no
ways to be despised. It is quite a recognised trade, and a skilled man
can do wonders."

Men already serving with the army found themselves singled out
for transfer - in one stroke, 300 men were transferred from the
10th (Service) Battalion, Duke of Cornwall's L.I to the 251st
Mining Company. Civilian miners were also recruited specifically
for mining duties. Bill Bassett was 60 years old and serving in a
mining company. He was killed a few days after declining a chance to
go home. Miners got paid more than regular infantry. Tunneller
got 6 shillings a day, whilst the Tunneller's mate got 2/- 2d (Infantry
go 1/- a day).

Special mining courses were initialised where men "daily endured
3 mile early morning runs and spent the rest of the day comatose
missing out on the finer points of engineering warfare".

Deep mining required techniques associated with industrial mining.
Saps would be built out towards the enemy lines - often incorporating
"laterals". Laterals would run for hundreds of yards parallel to the enemy
line. Saps would also run out from the laterals towrds the enemy line as well as listening posts from which the mining activities of the enemy could be
monitored. There were often problems ensuring a sap was being built in
the right direction - proper surveying instruments later imrproved
accuracy. At the end of a sap driven under enemy lines, a chamber was
hollowed out and filled with explosives- usually ammonal or sometimes
blastine - both approx. 3.5 times more powerful than gunpowder. The
explosive was stacked in tins and was then "tamped". The entrance to
the chamber was sealed with sandbags to prevent the blast taking the
line of least resistance back through the workings. Electrical
switches were used to fire the mines.

Code of dress was very distinctive for the miners - one miner "was
several times arrested as a suspicious character as I emerged,
dusty and stained from underground and presented some alarmed sentry
with the view of a man clad in a dirty white sweater, stores issue
slacks, and dilapidated tennis shoes. This was standard rig for the
underground job".

Both sides used listenig devices to plot enemy underground movements.
It was a skilled job using a "geophone". The requirement was to be
able to distinguish a shell explosion from mining operations. Often,
the listener's task was boring and dangerously exposed to enemy
counter-mines. Comnbat underground, when one side broke into
another's gallery, was infrequent, but violent. Camouflets - charges
designed to ruin an enemy gallery without breaking the surface -
would be blown followed by hand-to-hand fighting - sometimes
with cut-down .303 rifles, other times, with whatever was close to hand.

The effect on the infantry of this underground cat-and-mouse is
profound. The history of the 163rd (German) infantry:
"These continual mine explosions in the end got on the nerves of the
men. The posts in the front trenches and the garrisons of the dug-outs
were always being buried alive. Even in  the quietist night there
was a dreadful feeling that in the next moment one might die a horrible
and cruel death...Against all other fighting methods there was some
protection - against this kind of warfare, valour was of no avail,
nor even the greatest foresight.

Estimates of losses of British tunnellers in WWI: at least
185 officers and 1,549 men.

selected from source: Imperial War Museum Review No. 6 "Military Mining on the
Western Front / Bryn Hammond

steve baldwin

[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 21 Mar 1994 08:39:00 EST
From:    Don Bowden <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: MODEL DECALS

George,
        I had the same query as Mick in Australia: is there a modeling-l.
Let us know more if there is.
Don Bowden
Winston-Salem, NC

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 21 Mar 1994 08:42:49 EST
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: <No subject given>

TELL LISTSERV REVIEW WWII-L

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Wild, LAN Mgr.  Father of 1.5             Voice:          (401) 792-2611
ACC - Lippitt - URI  American Legion Post 102. FAX:            (401) 792-5479
Kingston, RI  02881                            Bitnet:           AWild@URIACC
                                               Internet: [email-masked]

Murphy's Uncertainty Principle:    You can know something has gone wrong only
                                    when you make an odd number of mistakes.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 21 Mar 1994 08:46:43 -0500
From:    Daniel Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: Ike's prewar carreer

Well, he was Gen Doug MacArthur's aide. Figure how that made Doug feel,
when Ike became Supreme Commander.

There was a wonderful film sequence in the PBS Depression series last
fall showing Coxy's army being dispersed by the US Army. MacArthur, I
think in jodphurs, was flanked by two (light?) colonels. You saw them
from the back. One was recognizable by his posture: Patton. The other was
recognizable by the shape of his neck: Eisenhower. It was one of those
stunning pictures from which you feel that, had you seen it at the time,
you could have predicted the future.

(Actually, maybe Patton wasn't even a light colonel at the time.)

Dan Ford      <e-mail: [email-masked]>

              <postal: 433 Bay Road, Durham NH 03824 USA>
              <voice or fax: +1-603-868-5850>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 21 Mar 1994 08:35:11 +0100
From:    John Ausland <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN: ELECTRONIC VERSION OF LETTERS HOME

  Oslo, March 21.  As most users of this list know, I published last year a book
about my WWII experiences under the title LETTERS HOME: A WAR MEMOIR.  Due to
production and shipping costs, I had to set the price at $35, including
shipping.
  Despite this, the book has sold well, and my stock is running low.  For
various reasons, I have decided against a second printing.
  Instead, I have now put the book on disk, using the program WRITER'S DREAM,
which is both easy to work with and to use.  I have put the entire book on one
disk as a self-executing file, using LHARC, including pictures and maps.  For
those not wanting to take up space on their hard disk, I have also put it,
uncompressed, on two disks.
  WRITER'S DREAM permits text search within each chapter and printing.  It also
has a useful feature that permits automatic scrolling.
  I am well aware that the market for books on disk is limited but wanted to be
able to offer people something after the paper edition is exhausted.  (I have
also found putting the book on disk an interesting challenge, even fun.)
  One of the advantages of putting the book on disk is that I do not have to
decide in advance how many copies I want.
  If anyone is interested in getting a copy of this electronic book for $15, you
might send me an email message.
  Regards, John Ausland

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 21 Mar 1994 07:11:17 +0100
From:    John Ausland <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN: Mistreatment German POWs?

  Oslo, March 21.  A German correspondent, in a recent message, spoke of the
deliberate starvation of German POWs in camps near Wiesbaden (e.g. Bretzenheim).
He says that, as a boy, he talked with some of the survivors.
  He also mentioned orders from the Eisenhower headquarters to block from
August 1944 to May 8, 1945 the access of the Red Cross to allied POW camps.
  Can anyone throw any light on these claims?
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 21 Mar 1994 11:26:59 -0600
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Wehrmacht troops killing Waffen-SS troops?

> More stories if you are interested?
>                                                         Regards
>                                                           John

Hi John,

Re: your buddy the Fallschirmjaeger, you bet!!  I want to hear them
all!

Cheers, Bill Huber

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 21 Mar 1994 09:40:03 -0800
From:    Jim Benn <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Command cooperation between allies

Olaf:  On a recent visit to Newfoundland, I heard a story about a German
U-Board firing torpedoes into the harbor of St. John's.  Overlooking the
harbor from the hilltop, I could see a very narrow channel leading into
the harbor; almost like a fjiord.  If this happened, it must've been a
tough shot.  Can you enlighten, based on your research?

 On Sun, 20 Mar 1994,
OLAF wrote:

> I've been doing some reading on the Canadian and American military
> presence in Newfoundland during World War II. Canadian forces
> arrived there first to provide Newfoundland with defences against
> possible enemy attacks. The Leased Bases agreement between England
> and the USA led to the subsequent arrival of American forces as
> well. One of the problems that ensured from this was command
> cooperation between Canadian and American forces. Indeed, in a war
> that engaged so many allied, this was a fairly common problem in
> many different theatres.
>
> In Newfoundland, the local Canadian commander tried to bounce the
> problem back to his superiors outside Newfoundland. He was told
> that "the delicate problem of divided or unified command devolves
> on PJBD or Chiefs of Staff and not on local commanders." This was
> a reference to the Permanent Joint Board of Command which was set
> up in 1940 for purposes of coordinating Canadian and American
> defence strategy for all of North America. However, the higher
> staffs could not agree on coordinating arrangements, which left the
> ball, more or less, back in the local commanders' court.
>
> My question is this. Can anyone suggest sources (books or articles)
> which examine this problem of command cooperation between different
> Allies during World War II? I'd prefer sources which do not address
> this question incidentally, but as the main focus. Please post on
> WWII-L or else e-mail me.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Olaf Janzen
> Department of History
> Sir Wilfred Grenfell College
> Corner Brook, Newfoundland
> A2H 6P9
> tel: (709) 637-6282
> FAX: (709) 639-8125
> e-mail: [email-masked]
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 21 Mar 1994 14:30:19 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Heavy A/C guns?

> > This talk of AT guns on planes has me wondering if anything larger than
> > the 75 mm howitzers used in the Pacific were ever mounted on aircraft
> > during the war. I keeping getting flashes of something similar to HMS
> > Furious (light cruise in WWI that mounted 18" guns in single turrets.
> > Bizarre arrangement.)
>
>     The Italians fitted a 102mm gun in the nose of the four-engined Piaggio
> P.108A bomber, for anti-shipping purposes.  It was fixed with a slight
> depression (which required new shooting tables). I don't think that it was
> ever fired in anger. Not many P.108s were built, and most were 'normal'
> bombers. Before WWII, the USSR built an aircraft with a recoilless 102mm
> cannon (a weight was fired backwards) for air-to-air use, but common sense
> soon won.

I forgot to mention Gerat 104, a German invention. It was a 365mm (365!)
recoilless gun. It was shaped like a tube, open at both ends, 10m long,
rifled, with a breech in the middle. The idea was that it would be swung
out for firing, obviously to keep the aircraft clear of the blast. It was
intended for the Junkers Ju 288G twin-engined bomber, that never entered
service.

I've found that only one P.108A (Artigliere) was ever built, but the
Italians were planning to equip an anti-shipping unit when all was halted
in 1943. It is claimed that tests showed that firing this 102mm gun had no
deleterious effect on aircraft handling !

It seems that 75mm was the largest calibre ever used operationally: The
M-4 or T-13 houwitser of the B-25, the BK 7.5 anti-tank gun of the Junkers
Ju 88P-1, and and the Type 88 gun of the Japanese Ki-109. The BK 7.5 was
probably the most powerful of these.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 21 Mar 1994 11:27:34 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Heavy A/C guns?

Interesting, your mention of that experimental open ended gun of the
Luftwaffe in WW2.
The British had a similar design during the First World War. It was
a long tube slanted downwards, and actually was used in combat.
However, it was not continued.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 21 Mar 1994 13:54:10 CST
From:    Steve Alvin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Heavy A/C guns?

My understanding of the 75mm gun mounted on the B-25 is that it
wasn't well liked by the crews.  The recoil had a tendency to
shake the plane apart--weakening bolts, etc.  In the 5th AF in
the Pacific it was common practice to remove the gun and replace it
with two .50 cal. mg's firing down the gun's tunnel.

--
Steve Alvin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 21 Mar 1994 13:57:14 CST
From:    Steve Alvin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Nost:  Warbird's crash

The local news on saturday night mentioned that two warbirds
collided in the sky over Texas and crashed, destroying both planes
(and I think killing a couple of people).  I have not seen anythin
in the paper about this.  Does anyone on the list know more?
I assume they were part of the CAF, but I could be wrong.

--
Steve Alvin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 21 Mar 1994 09:57:51 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TAC: Cooperation of forces.

"... SOE and the competing SAS.. often betrayied each other to the
Germans..."
*Bizarre*, indeed.
Also complete nonsense.
Incidentally, Special Operations Executive and the Special Air Services
Regiment were not "competetivive" in any shape, manner, or form.
SOE was charged with subversions and sabotage. The SAS Regiment was and
still is a regular regiment of the British Army.
        Outside of comic-books or sensationalist fiction, I defy anyone
to present a shred of sensible evidence of these two units ever "betraying"
each other.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 21 Mar 1994 15:13:41 -0500
From:    Warren Thompson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Hist: Movie, "Piece of Cake"

For all subscribers: "Piece of Cake" is available from WGBH Educational
Foundation, P O Box 64428, St Paul MN 55164 (1-800-669-9696) @ $129.95
[6 volumes boxed, 312 minutes, VHS].

-- Warren Thompson
LEBANON VALLEY COLLEGE
Annville PA 17003

{1994 NCAA Division III Men's Basketball Champions}

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 21 Mar 1994 15:16:41 -0600
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Nost: Warbird's crash

> The local news on saturday night mentioned that two warbirds
> collided in the sky over Texas and crashed, destroying both planes
> (and I think killing a couple of people).  I have not seen anythin
> in the paper about this.  Does anyone on the list know more?
> I assume they were part of the CAF, but I could be wrong.
>
> --
> Steve Alvin
> [email-masked]

Hi Steve,

It happened about 2:30 PM Saturday 19 March 94 over San Antonio.
There was a formation of three light observation type WWII era planes
that fly out of a field here in town.  They are part of a group sort
of like the CAF but not affiliated with them.  They are a group of
retired airforce pilots who fly for fun.

Two of the planes touched wing tips and both went down killing the
occupants of both aircraft (total 4 people).  No one was hurt on the
ground in spite of the planes falling into residential areas.  One
smacked into an old Quonset hut building that is currently operating
as a transmission shop.

The pilots of both planes were decorated combat pilots and one of the
passengers was an award winning photographer named Beery.  He was well
known for his vintage aircraft shots taken while airborne.

Initial reports said they were combat aircraft but the planes they
showed in the filmclips were observation type planes.  The live shots
they took of the wreckage showed nothing remotely resembling an
airplane.

The formation was flying within the FAA regulations and were not doing
anything considered dangerous.  The cause of the disaster is not
known.

If any more news is available I will post it.  Cheers from San
Antonio,
           Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 21 Mar 1994 15:14:37 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: Ike's prewar carreer

Hello, Attila!

> Can anybody feed me with some information on Ike's prewar career,
> please?

    I have info on Ike's career. I read his book "At Ease" in which
he goes into much detail about his career, both prewar and somewhat
wartime. Will see what else I can find.

 > I would need to know what he was doing, where, when...
> Just the basic facts, nothing serious.

    How specific do you want? Even your remark above can require much
detail.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 21 Mar 1994 16:23:24 EST
From:    Richard Kaplan <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: APO Addresses

Is there an index or other reference tool that links APO addresses to a
specific cite, or was an APO address attached to a specific unit?  If it was
assigned to a specific unit, at what level; division, regiment, etc.?
In particular, my patron is looking for the location of APO 552 NY,
with the complete address being SV SQ 413 Air SVGP.  All of this of course
refers to WWII service.

As an aside, Her Majesty's Government Tourist office is organizing formal tours
of sites in Blighty and on the continent.

                                Richard Kaplan
                                Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh
                                [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 21 Mar 1994 15:22:38 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: Mistreatment German POWs?

Hello, John!

>   Oslo, March 21.  A German correspondent, in a recent message, spoke of the
> deliberate starvation of German POWs in camps near Wiesbaden (e.g. Bretzenheim).
> He says that, as a boy, he talked with some of the survivors.
>   He also mentioned orders from the Eisenhower headquarters to block from
> August 1944 to May 8, 1945 the access of the Red Cross to allied POW camps.
>   Can anyone throw any light on these claims?
>   Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

    Never heard of that, and in all my reading of Eisenhower's
attitudes at the end of the war, I would seriously discount that
story. Given the individuals and the times, it sounds like a case of
"sour grapes". I would like to see proof of that, and I don't think
there is any. It could be that given the situation at the time, and
the deteriorated state of the German wartime economy at the time, a
shipment of food, etc, may have been delayed and this may have been
taken as a deliberate attempt to starve POW's, but I have never seen
anything to support such an account, and doubt there is anything to
subtantiate this.

    My two cents' worth anyway.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 21 Mar 1994 15:38:11 CST
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Heavy A/C guns?

> My understanding of the 75mm gun mounted on the B-25 is that it
> wasn't well liked by the crews.  The recoil had a tendency to
> shake the plane apart--weakening bolts, etc.  In the 5th AF in
> the Pacific it was common practice to remove the gun and replace it
> with two .50 cal. mg's firing down the gun's tunnel.

Well, "like" is a relative term.

The cannon had the occasional tendency to jam, which is a real pain...
Climbing down the tunnel to clear the breach... There were also cases
where it suffered from a "delayed fire" problem.  The shell would fire
oh... minutes... :-) after the trigger was pulled.  Really a drag when
you're back in formation.  :-)

But for sea sweep operations, it was very much appreciated.  It was
a very accurate weapon and could do a lot of damage to intercepted
warships and cargo ships.  In the Med, it did a lot of damage to Rommel's
supply line.

(I also know of one case where a pilot, jumped by two Zeros attempting a
head on attack, accidentally flipped the control from "machine gun" to
"cannon" and in a million-to-one and unexpected shot, splashed one Zero
with a direct hit from the 75mm.  This surprised everyone about equally
(the pilot couldn't believe he selected the wrong gun and the surviving
Zero decided this wasn't the kind of fun he was at all interested in.)

The pilot reported that for some time after that, the Japanese fighters
kept some distance from the cannon bearing B-25s... Perhaps they believed
the Americans had installed a new targeting system giving them acceptable
air-to-air accuracy with a 75mm cannon -- a hit that is unlikely for any
aircraft to survive.

As far as shaking planes apart, the only Mitchells that truly suffered
were those that were field modified.  The aluminum and structure of the
aircraft was not designed for such a weapon.  While it worked just fine,
sheet metal repairs were common.  The factory equipped Mitchells were no
more prone to unusual field maintenance than any other traditional model
Mitchell.

The gun served a specific purpose, however, and when that purpose was
negated, the G models vanished from the field and were replaced by J's,
mostly (returning the Mitchell back to its medium altitude bombing role).

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
[email-masked]                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 21 Mar 1994 16:44:35 -0500
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: Mistreatment German POWs?

John Ausland <[email-masked]> writes:

>   Oslo, March 21.  A German correspondent, in a recent message, spoke of the
> deliberate starvation of German POWs in camps near Wiesbaden (e.g. Bretzenheim).
> He says that, as a boy, he talked with some of the survivors.
>   He also mentioned orders from the Eisenhower headquarters to block from
> August 1944 to May 8, 1945 the access of the Red Cross to allied POW camps.
>   Can anyone throw any light on these claims?

Curt Klun wrote to this list a very interesting message concerning this topic a
few weeks ago.  I reproduce pertinent parts for everyone who may have missed it
the first time.  -- Joe

Curt A. Klun BGF0000 <[email-masked]> writes:
> Greetings:
>
> I'm currently working on a research project that was inspired by James Bacque's
> book "Other Losses".  Its basic premise is that Eisenhower "quietly engineered
> the deaths of one million German prisoners", who were capture during the last
> weeks of the war.  By changing the status of these prisoners from POW to DEF
> (Disarmed Enemy Forces), Eisenhower was able to avoid living up to the
> standards of the Geneva convention and to keep the International Red Cross
> away from the camps where conditions were bad.
>
> As far as I can find out, the debate is pretty much at a stalemate with each
> side accepting that there was atrocious conditions in these camps (No
> argument there), but because statistics and interview interpretation is
> subjective each side is able to bolster their own view point.
>
> The Pro-Bacque side argues that the Other Losses is a story of "premeditated
> atrocity and on-going conspiracy to prevent word of it ever leaking out."
> It argues that Eisenhower's intense hatred of the German people and
> willingness to carry out the "denazification" of Germany (Morganthau plan) was
> at the origin of the horrible conditions.
>
> The other side, led by Steven Ambrose, levies a great defense.  First by
> disputing the statistics provided by Bacque then providing a "more likely
> origins" and motivations of the conditions.  For instance, Harry Hinsley
> thought it was more likely that administrative incompetence and sheer size
> of the problem, millions taken in matter of weeks, produced the horrible camp
> conditions.  Their argument continues to down size the atrocity and focuses
> on the circumstances that were beyond human control, as well as recognizing
> the callousness of the American and French commands.  They not only point to
> the food shortages in Europe, but they also to the Morganthau plan, saying
> that those above Eisenhower forced him to be tough on the Germans.
>
> I don't want to get into the argument of interpretation of specific facts.
> That doesn't seem to lead anywhere.  For instance, Bacque points to a damaging
> situation where a train load of food from the International Red Cross and
> earmarked for German POWs was forced turned back and return to Geneva.  Ambrose
> retorts that the Allied Governments decided that the food would be fed to
> Displaced Persons.  Yet, Bacque could respond saying that the fact that the
> food was used someplace else does not refute the premise that these soldiers
> were denied food/aid from the Red Cross.  As you can see we can continue the
> circle.
> ...
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
I cut you on everyt'ing; I don't need you!  Sixty
feet of bridge I can pick up almost anywhere!

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 21 Mar 1994 15:46:09 CST
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Nost:  Warbird's crash

> The local news on saturday night mentioned that two warbirds
> collided in the sky over Texas and crashed, destroying both planes
> (and I think killing a couple of people).  I have not seen anythin
> in the paper about this.  Does anyone on the list know more?
> I assume they were part of the CAF, but I could be wrong.

Not CAF.

The Alamo Liaison Squadron was flying three of their aircraft: A 1942
Taylorcraft L2M, a 1942 Interstate L6 and a 1939 Piper J3.  The J3 was
the subject of a photo shoot being done by the other two aircraft.  Each
aircraft was carrying two people (one pilot and one photographer each).
The L2M was flown by Col. William J. Houston (USAF, Ret.) and the L6 was
flown by Maj. Gen. Paul Straw (USAF, Ret.)

During the photo shoot, the L2 and L6 collided (AP says "touched wings").
One aircraft crashed into a mechanic's shop and caught fire and the other
crashed alongside a highway.  The J3 returned to base safely.  The four
onboard the L2 and L6 were killed.

The Alamo Liaison Squadron specializes in rebuiling the L-type birds.
As always, I refuse to speculate on the probable cause of the accident,
even though some reasons appear to be more likely than others...

(There was also another warbird loss over the weekend where an aircraft
caught fire during a fly-by.  I don't know the aircraft type, but was told
it may have been a P-51D.  A privately owned aircraft, I guess, the pilot
bailed out and parachuted to safety).

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
[email-masked]                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 21 Mar 1994 17:03:13 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: Ike's prewar carreer

> (Actually, maybe Patton wasn't even a light colonel at the time.)

  Both Ike and blood-and-guts were majors at the time.

Larry J

[email-masked]; Co-Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU (Historical docs)
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 21 Mar 1994 18:25:29 -0600
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: GEN: Mistreatment German POWs?

On Mon, 21 Mar 1994, Terry Moore wrote:

Hi John,

>
> >   Oslo, March 21.  A German correspondent, in a recent message, spoke of the
> > deliberate starvation of German POWs in camps near Wiesbaden (e.g. Bretzenhe
> ).
> > He says that, as a boy, he talked with some of the survivors.
> >   He also mentioned orders from the Eisenhower headquarters to block from
> > August 1944 to May 8, 1945 the access of the Red Cross to allied POW camps.
> >   Can anyone throw any light on these claims?
> >   Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway
>
>     Never heard of that, and in all my reading of Eisenhower's
> attitudes at the end of the war, I would seriously discount that
> story. Given the individuals and the times, it sounds like a case of
> "sour grapes". I would like to see proof of that, and I don't think
> there is any. It could be that given the situation at the time, and
> the deteriorated state of the German wartime economy at the time, a
> shipment of food, etc, may have been delayed and this may have been
> taken as a deliberate attempt to starve POW's, but I have never seen
> anything to support such an account, and doubt there is anything to
> subtantiate this.
>
>     My two cents' worth anyway.
>
>     Terry
>
> Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
> P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
> fax 806-371-5370
>
Just to add a couple of more cents to the pot.  I have to agree with
Terry that it sounds like "sour grapes."  I have know a number of men who
were held in German Prisoner of War camps and none of them have anything
bad to say about their time at the camps.  In fact one man, Glen Brown,
from Streator, Illinois, has had nothing but praise for his captors.  He
tells stories of sharing Red Cross packages with the guards, because the
prisoners actually had more to eat than the German soldiers when the
packages arrived.

I will agree that the prisoners went hungry, especially toward the end
of the war, but so did their captors.

C.K. Bryant
***************************************************
"The Riskier the road, the greater the profit."
        The 62nd Rule of Acquisition
***************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 21 Mar 1994 16:48:00 EST
From:    "Pete.Goldsmith" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Unsubscribe

Please remove me from the list. I have enjoyed my time, but time and storage
space mandate some change.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 21 Mar 1994 22:45:48 -0500
From:    William Eldridge <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TAC: Cooperation of forces.

Sidney Allinson, you wrote:

> "... SOE and the competing SAS.. often betrayied each other
> to the Germans..."
> *Bizarre*, indeed.
> Also complete nonsense.
[material deleted]
>        Outside of comic-books or sensationalist fiction, I defy anyone
> to present a shred of sensible evidence of these two units ever
> "betraying" each other.

Oh, boy... I had a feeling I shouldn't post such an unlikely assertion
without having my source in hand. I guess I'll have to trudge to the
library to see if I can find the book in which I read this, which was a
work of history and not a comic book or sensationalist novel.

BTW, you (within quotation marks!) paraphrased me inaccurately. I had
written "more than one instance", not "often".

-- Bill Eldridge

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 20 Mar 1994 to 21 Mar 1994
*************************************************