Subject: WWII-L Digest - 3 Mar 1994 to 4 Mar 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 5 Mar 1994 00:00:42 -0500

There are 57 messages totalling 2564 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. QUEST: Americans in concentration camps? (6)
  2. Monty
  3. U-Boats in American waters (3)
  4. The 106th, the Ardennes, and a friend of von (2)
  5. CO of the 91st Bomb Group
  6. INF: USAAF 4-6 MAR 44
  7. Gen. Steiner: Defence of Berlin (2)
  8. QUEST: Sinking of the Indianapolis (2)
  9. Bombing of Dresden /v1, v2 (2)
 10. The 106th, the Ardennes, and a "friend" of von Manteuff
 11. setting to nomail (2)
 12. The 106th, the Ardennes, and a "friend" of von Manteuffel
 13. TAC: Convoys vs. U-Boats (4)
 14. QUEST: FDR/Advance Knowledge of PH
 15. Info/ U-Boats
 16. Polesti raids misinformation (5)
 17. U boats
 18. Rohm shot (7)
 19. Ben Olds flamed over Polesti
 20. Best Aredennes book (?)
 21. Why I detest Ike
 22. WEAP: Peenemunde, V2 etc
 23. book excerpt RE: USAAF 4 March 1944
 24. TAC: Italian AT units
 25. INF: Japanese sub attacks on US mainland (2)
 26. GEN: Re: Einsatz. document (2)
 27. INF: More Mines in Flanders
 28. TAC: 106th Division in the Ardennes
 29. Attempt to contact B-25 crew
 30. Triv: re: Steiner

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 21:18:50 PST
From:    rod holmes <[email-masked]>
Subject: QUEST: Americans in concentration camps?

Howdy All,

Hope this doesn't explode. I was wodering if any citizens of the United
States of American were sent to any of the concentration camps?

Rod Holmes                      | I want to drive drunk on the information
[email-masked]        | superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 12:27:54 +0700
From:    "Peter E. Beal" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Monty

On Tue, 1 Mar 1994, Ken Koester wrote:

> On Mon, 28 Feb 1994 21:36:05 GMT Stephen Baldwin said:
> >ken koester and me write...
> >
> >ken>, shirked the blame for his foulups &
> >ken>    went out of his way to denigrate his ally in the Ardennes--in fact, he
> >ken>    made the whole thing worse on the northern flank.
> >did he? I know there was a bust up when one of the US generals had his
> >front sliced in half (not literally of course), and the logical thing
> >to do was to pass command to Monty. Ike had to settle the feud and
> >did the logical and correct thing much to the other's anger. As far
> >as I am aware, Monty's policy was to allow the Germans to run
> >themselves down and wait by the Meuse for the tattered remnants to
> >emerge and hit them there - in the meanwhile resting his own chaps...

One has to ask, how were they to be reduced to tattered remnants and by
whom?  Monty's contribution to the battle (I think it was the 30 Corps)
sat out the battle ("rested") on the west side of the Meuse while the 2nd
Armored and the 82nd Abn. reduced the 2nd Panzer Division to tatters.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 06:35:44 -0500
From:    "Max C." <[email-masked]>
Subject: U-Boats in American waters

There were three landings of German agents on American shores by U-boat
during the war in Maine, Florida and on Long Island.  I think the
Florida landing was biggest in terms of number of agents and equipment.

There was a very interesting little book published locally a number of
years ago:

            Coffin, Harold W.
            ASSIGNMENT IN MILITARY INTELLIGENCE
            Old Town,Me: Penobscot Press, 1972

In this the author who was an intelligence coordinator for northern New
England tells of two major incidents with U-boats.

He claims that a German sub was sunk just outside of the harbor at
Portland, Maine (near the Diamond Island channel). If I remember the
account he implies that the sub struck a mine while trying to penetrate
the Navy anchorage since the only thing that called the coastal defenses
attention was a hellacious explosion.

He also gives an account of the sinking of one sub near the mouth of the
Kennebec River.  Evidently coast observers spotted the U-boat travelling
on the surface, going north toward Seguin Island.  Just starting around
Small Point the American coastal defense guns at Popham Battery were
swung about ready to blast her when she came around the point.  However,
the call came in for them to stand down since Navy destroyers were
speeding toward the area and a "skipped" shell could endanger them.  The
sub came around the point but began diving...the Navy did show up and
depth-charge the area...and claimed a kill.  I can remember the date but
it had to have been early in the war.  Had the battery at Popham had a
chance to fire they would have been the only engagement with an enemy by
shore batteries in the CONUS during the war.   A similar incident
happened in Oregon in 1942; a coastal battery had a Japanese submarine,
traveling on the surface, right in their sights but the order to fire
never came...I think the battery commander didnt want to give away their
position or something like that (I bet moral at that gun went to rock
bottom...OOOPPPS...I mean "morale").

The German agent was landed near the town of Machias but was quickly
apprehended as were the rest.  In the book mentioned above the author
also gives a number of incidents of German "sleeper" agents and fellow
travelers...it a quick and interesting read.

I can get the hard details on the above inicents for anyone
interested....all my books are at home.

Max C. Calderwood
University of Southern Maine
Gorham, ME
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 06:33:57 EST
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: The 106th, the Ardennes, and a friend of von

Earlier Lou had written this paragraph in a response
to Terry Moore:
>
>     Incidentally, I note in the CHRONICLE that West Point
>is looking for a poly sci prof.  Bear?  Con?  Is the
>Academy starting to hire civilian faculty now?
>
Yes, West Point is looking for civilian faculty.  The superintendents
of all three academies had a major meeting with congressional leaders and the
service chiefs awhile back (1-2 years ago) and a decision was made to
increase the civilian faculty at the academies.  West Point WILL NOT be going
to an all-civilian faculty if that is what you think (from your message).

The plan is over the next 15 years to increase the permanent (I say again
permanent) faculty to approximately 50% civilian.  There is no anticipated
change in the the rotating faculty (guys like me) because of the recognized
need for officer role models to teach the cadets.  The reason for the increase
in the civilian faculty is to gain the insight and experience of professional
educators, to maintain and/or improve the level of academic excellence; but at
the same time not change the overall academy experience.  Since the permanent
faculty is around 36% of the total faculty, this will mean that West Point
will reach about 18% civilian faculty by the year 2002.

Hope this clears up your question.

Bear

Barrett F. Lowe               RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, West Point  (e-mail:  [email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 05:56:38 CST
From:    jesse carnes <[email-masked]>
Subject: CO of the 91st Bomb Group

Concerning the question of whether Lt. Col. Manny Klette was made the LAST
CO of the famous 91st BG (out of Bassingbourn), let me read a quote from a
biographical sketch given to me by Frank Donafrio, head of the Memphis Belle
Memorial Association had a telephone convo. with my twin, Bobby and he stated
that he knew Manny like a brother.
The sketch states :
"At the end of the war in Europe, he took command of the 91st Bomb Group as its
LAST commander (emphasis mine) prior to inactivation of that famous World War
II combat organization."

Apparently Roger Freeman had left this out of his "8th AF" book series, inad-
vertently, or was unaware of the event.

Obviously Manny's command of the 91st had to be between July and November of
1945.After November, the 91st went inactive.

Jesse Carnes
[email-masked]
Baton Rouge
"World's greatest lover of the Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress"

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 06:25:24 -0600
From:    Cheryl Bryant <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: QUEST: Americans in concentration camps?

On Thu, 3 Mar 1994, rod holmes wrote:

> Howdy All,
>
> Hope this doesn't explode. I was wodering if any citizens of the United
> States of American were sent to any of the concentration camps?
>
> Rod Holmes                      | I want to drive drunk on the information
> [email-masked]        | superhighway.

Hi Rod,
        The answer to you question about there being any Americans held
in concentration camps is Yes.  There were at least 11 Americans held
prisoner at the Concentration Camp Dachau.  I do not have the count on
any of the others.

C.K. Bryant
*************************************************
"The Riskier the road, the greater the profit."
        The 62nd Rule of Acquisition
*************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 07:43:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USAAF 4-6 MAR 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
4 - 6 MARCH 1944

FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-24, Douglas Dauntless
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  Ventura, Lockheed

SATURDAY, 4 MARCH 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 60+ A-36s, P-51s and P-40s, and a
single B-25 bomb dumps, roads, bivouac area, and other targets in the Seton,
Sawnghka, Pinbaw and Walawbum areas; numerous fighters carry out patrol and
armed reconnaissance sorties in the Sumprabum area.
  459th Fighter Squadron, 80th Fighter Group, moves from Kurmitola to
Chittagong, India with P-38s.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 5 B-25s and 23 P-40s (16 of them
Chinese) pound the airfield at Kiungshan; the airfield is heavily damaged and
several parked aircraft are destroyed; 17 Japanese aircraft are claimed shot
down; 4 P-38s and 2 Chinese B-25s claim a freighter, a tanker, and a motor
launch sunk in the Shihhweiyao and Wuhu areas; 6 waves of Japanese aircraft
bomb the airfield at Suichwan, causing considerable damage. In French
Indochina, 6 B-25s bomb the Thanh Hoa chromium mine and Campha Port; 2 P-40s
strafe railroad yards and warehouses at Hongay and Campha Port; 5 P-40s are
dispatched to bomb Cao Bang but because of bad weather attack Chinese-held
Lungchow, China by mistake.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 247: 502 B-17s are
dispatched to hit industrial areas in the suburbs of Berlin; bad weather
forces aircraft to either turn back or hit targets of opportunity and only 1
wing attacks the primary target and a total of 249 bomb. 15 B-17s are lost, 1
is damaged beyond repair and 120 damaged; casualties are 3 KIA, 11 WIA and
141 MIA. Targets: 100 hit Bonn, 35 hit Cologne, 33 hit Dusseldorf, 30 hit
Berlin/Klein Machnow, 7 hit Frankfurt and 33 hit other targets of
opportunity. B-24s were also dispatched but abort because of the weather.
Escort is provided by 86 P-38s, 563 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s and 121
Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-51s; 24 fighters were lost. Details are:
  1. P-38s: 4 lost, 2 damaged beyond repair, 1 damaged; casualties are 1 KIA
and 4 MIA.
  2. P-47s claim 3-1-3 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 1-0-0 on the ground;
4 P-47s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 5 damaged; casualties are 3 MIA.
  3. P-51s claim 5-2-1 Luftwaffe aircraft; 16 P-51s are lost, 1 damaged beyond
repair and 1 damaged; casualties are 1 KIA and 16 MIA.
  CARPETBAGGER operations are flown during the night of 4/5 Mar.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, 251 B-26s and 21 A-20s
scheduled to bomb Malines marshalling yard and Bernay Saint Martin Airfield
abort the mission because of heavy cloud cover over the targets.
  HQ 84th Fighter Wing moves from Keevil to Beaulieu, England.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, weather cancels most
operations; P-40s fly a few sorties against gun emplacements in the battle
area, and others uneventfully patrol the Anzio area.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): P-40s from Makin Island bomb and
strafe runways at Mille Atoll. B-25s from Tarawa Atoll bomb airfield
installations and runways in Wotje Atoll, Marshall Islands.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island,
P-40s join US Navy (USN) fighters and dive bombers in a strike on AA
positions and targets of opportunity in the Rabaul area; 4 patrolling Royal
New Zealand Air Force (RNZAF) Venturas hit targets of opportunity along both
coasts and at Vunalama and Mandres Plantations; 48 B-25s and 12 P-38s, along
with 20+ USN fighters, hit the Rabaul town area in 3 closely spaced attacks.
P-38s also attack targets of opportunity on Duke of York Island, Admiralty
Islands. 12 P-39s hit Monoitu and targets of opportunity along the SW coast
of Bougainville Island. RNZAF Venturas join USN planes in attacks on Japanese
embarkation ports around Choiseul Bay, New Georgia Island, Solomon Islands.
Shortland Island targets of opportunity are hit by P-40s on patrol.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): 20+ A-20s and B-25s support
ground forces on Los Negros Island. In New Guinea, more than 30 B-24s with
fighter escort, pound airfields in the Wewak area; 20+ other B-24s bomb
Hollandia; and A-20s bomb buildings and gun positions in the Saidor area.
  Moves in New Guinea: HQ 38th Bombardment Group (Medium) from Port Moresby
to Nadzab; HQ 43d Bombardment Group (Heavy) from Dobodura to Nadzab.

SUNDAY, 5 MARCH 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): B-25s, A-36s, P-51s and P-40s fly more than
60 sorties against targets in Burma, including artillery positions, storage
areas, ground troops, roads, and a bridge; the targets are in the Zigon,
Shingban, and Myitkyina areas.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 8 B-25s bomb and strafe Chiengmai Airfield,
China, destroying 9 aircraft, the water tower and nearby railroad station;
the barracks area is also damaged.

  EASTERN AIR COMMAND (EAC): During the night, British Major General Orde C
Wingate's Special Force of long-range penetration troops begin dropping by
glider onto Japanese lines of communication in C Burma. US engineer troops
drop first, followed by the British 77 and 111 Brigades. USAAF Colonel Philip
G Cochran's Air Commando unit flies them in, dropping them on a strip
designated Broadway, about 50 miles (80 km) NE of Indaw. Another projected
drop site, Piccadilly, is unusable as the Japanese have blocked it with
fallen trees. Of 67 gliders dispatched, 32 reach Broadway. 539 men, 3 mules
and 65,972 pounds (29,925 kg) of supplies are safely put down, including such
items as bulldozers and lighting apparatus.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 248: 219 B-24s are
dispatched to hit airfields at Mont De Marsan, Cayeux and Bordeaux/Merignac,
France but bad cloud conditions force a target change and multiple aborts; 62
hit Bergerac Airfield, 60 hit Cognac/Chateaubernard Airfield, 41 hit Landes
de Bussac Airfield and 1 hits La Roche Airfield; they claim 14-2-5 Luftwaffe
aircraft; 4 B-24s are lost, 1 is damaged beyond repair and 23 damaged;
casualties are 1 WIA and 35 MIA. Escort is provided by 34 P-38s, 185 P-47s
and 88 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-51s; 2 P-38s are lost, 1 is damaged
beyond repair and 1 pilot is killed and another MIA; 1 P-47 is damaged and 1
pilot is KIA; the P-51s claim 14-0-6 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 0-0-6
on the ground; 3 P-51s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 1 damaged; 1
pilot is WIA and 4 MIA.
  Mission 249: 5 of 5 B-17s drop 250 bundles of leaflets on Le Mans, Paris,
Orleans and Reims, France at 2132-2152 hours without loss.
  A CARPETBAGGER mission is also flown.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 217 B-26s attack NOBALL (V-weapon)
targets in the Saint-Omer-Abbeville, France area.
  HQ 365th Fighter Group and 386th, 387th and 388th Fighter Squadrons move
from Gosfield to Beaulieu, England with P-47s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): HQ 451st Bombardment Group
(Heavy) moves from Gioia del Colle to San Pancrazio, Italy.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): XII Troop Carrier Command
(Provisional) is disbanded at Palermo. Weather again severely hampers
operations in Italy, but P-40s hit Pontecorvo and A-36s attack Formia.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): The Seventh Air Force continues
to hit the Marshall and Caroline Islands; P-40s from Makin Island carry out
fighter-bomber mission against runways and airfield installations at Mille
Atoll; B-25s hit Maloelap and Mille Atolls; B-24s bomb Ponape Island and last
resort targets at Kusaie Island and Mille Atoll.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 22
B-25s, with US Navy (USN) fighter escort, bomb Simpson Harbor; 4 Royal New
Zealand Air Force (RNZAF) Venturas on patrol hit barges anchored off a supply
dock at nearby Raulavat Plantation; 9 B-24s follow with a raid on the Rabaul
town area; 13 others, with USN fighters covering, blast the revetment area
and airstrip at Tobera; 11 P-38's hit Borpop Airfield, and P-40s and USN
fighters hit barges at Kabanga Bay and off the Warangoi River; 16 P-39s
attack AA positions at Monoitu bridge, and 3 P-38's hit Siar.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): About 30 B-24s bomb enemy
positions on Los Negros Island. In NE Nea Guinea, elements of the US 32d
Infantry Division land at Yaula; A-20s bomb and strafe the area; P-39's pound
the areas around Madang and Erima; Australian ground forces break out of the
Ramu Valley and retreat toward Madang.
  71st Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 38th Bombardment Group (Medium),
moves from Port Moresby to Nadzab, New Guinea with B-25s.

MONDAY, 6 MARCH 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 4 B-25s knock the center span out
of the Sittang bridge and blast 2 AA positions; 14 B-25s lay mines around
Kham Yai Island, bomb nearby Prong Island, and hit the marshalling yard at
Pegu; 18 P-51s and P-40s attack Sawnghka bridge with poor results, start
fires near Lalawng Ga, and bomb dumps near Walawbum.
  A flight of the 20th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron, AAF India-Burma
Sector (attached to Tenth Air Force), begins operating from Kisselbari, India
with P-40s; the squadron is based at Guskhara, India.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 250: 504 B-17s and 226
B-24s are dispatched to hit industrial areas in the suburbs of Berlin; fierce
fighter opposition claims 69 bombers (the highest number lost by the Eighth
Air Force in a single day) and 11 fighters; the bombers claim 97-28-60
Luftwaffe fighters; details are:
  1. 248 B-17s hit secondary targets in the Berlin area; 18 B-17s are lost, 2
damaged beyond repair and 172 damaged; casualties are 2 KIA, 8 WIA and 184
MIA.
  2. 226 B-17s hit targets of opportunity at Templin, Verden, Kalkeberge,
Potsdam, Oranienburg and Wittenberg; 35 B-17s are lost, 3 damaged beyond
repair and 121 damaged; casualties are 15 WIA and 354 MIA.
  3. 198 B-24s hit the primary target (Genshagen industrial area), secondary
targets in the Berlin area and targets of opportunity at Potsdam; 16 B-24s
are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 54 damaged; casualties are 15 KIA, 8 WIA
and 148 MIA.
  Escort is provided by 86 P-38s, 615 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s and
100 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-51s; results are:
  1. P-38s claim 3-0-1 Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 P-38 is lost, the pilot is MIA.
  2. P-47s claim 36-7-12 Luftwaffe aircraft; 5 P-47s are lost, 3 damaged
beyond repair and 4 damaged; casualties are 2 WIA and 5 MIA.
  3. P-51s claim 43-1-20 Luftwaffe aircraft; 5 P-51s are lost and 2 damaged;
casualties are 5 MIA.
  The fighters also claim 1-0-12 Luftwaffe aircraft on the ground.
  Mission 251: 5 of 5 B-17s drop 250 bundles of leaflets on Nantes, Cambrai,
Lille, Chateauroux and Lorient, France at 2029-2130 hours without loss.
  CARPETBAGGER missions are also flown.
  A detachment of 22d Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, 7th Photographic
Group (Reconnaissance), ceases operating from Attlebridge and returns to base
at Mount Farm, England with F-5s.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, 260 B-26s bomb NOBALL
(V-weapon) targets, Hirson marshalling yard, and Beauvais/Tille, Airfield;
heavy clouds cause 50+ B-26s and A-20s to abort missions.
  Arriving in England from the US are: 93d and 94th Troop Carrier Squadrons,
439th Troop Carrier Group, at Balderton; 510th and 511th Fighter-Bomber
Squadrons, 405th Fighter-Bomber Group, at Christchurch with P-47s (first
mission is 11 Apr).

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, P-40s pound gun
positions N of the Anzio beachhead (mostly NE of Ardea), and bomb Frosinone
and hit guns near Littoria; A-36s fly armed reconnaissance of roads and
railroad NE of Rome, hitting several vehicles and bombing railroad cars at
Capranica.
  302d Fighter Squadron, 332d Fighter Group, moves from Montecorvino to
Capodichino, Italy with P-39s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): A-24s and P-40s from Makin
Island bomb and strafe runways at Mille Atoll. B-25s from Tarawa Atoll pound
the airfield at Wotje Atoll.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On Bougainville Island,
P-39s hit Monoitu Mission and huts and bridge on the Miwo River. 24 B-25s
with fighter escort, pound Tobera, New Britain Island while 24 B-24s and 12
P-38s hit Kavieng and Panapai Airfield on New Ireland Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): B-25s continue to hit
Japanese forces on Los Negros Island. In New Guinea, B-24s bomb the airstrip
and other targets in the Awar-Nubia area; P-39s and Royal Australian Air
Force (RAAF) aircraft hit Japanese forces around Madang. On New Britain
Island, P-39s and P-38s strafe and dive-bomb the Cape Hoskins-Talasea area as
US Marines land about midway up the coast of the Willaumez Peninsula in
preparation for a drive on Talasea.
  405th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 38th Bombardment Group (Medium), moves
from Port Moresby to Nadzab, New Guinea with B-25s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 07:06:49 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Gen. Steiner: Defence of Berlin

> Received: from MAILQUEUE by PCAD (Mercury 1.11); Thu, 3 Mar 94 16:45:54 GMT-6
> Return-path: <@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU:[email-masked]>
> Received: from UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu by PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU (Mercury 1.11);
>     Thu, 3 Mar 94 16:45:48 GMT-6
> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU by UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2)
>    with BSMTP id 6728; Thu, 03 Mar 94 17:41:36 EST
> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@UBVM) by
>  UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0143; Thu,
>  3 Mar 1994 17:33:47 -0500

Hello, Chuck!

No problem with General Felix Steiner. His final rank at the end of
the war was SS-Obergruppenfuehrer. General Steiner was an early
member of the Waffen-SS having been the first officer to form and
command what later became the 5th SS-Panzer-Grenadier Division
"Wiking". He later became a corps commander. I must mention to you
that the "Wiking" Division was staffed or manned with ethnic German
nationalities, namely Danish, Norwegian, Flemish and Finns, later on.
It was the first division of its kind to recruit and man, what
otherwise would have been an all-German force.

General Steiner was relied upon during the end battle in Berlin to
relieve the city and rescue the government. Hitler was relying not
only on Steiner but General der Panzertruppen Walther Wenck as well.
When Steiner's final attack failed almost from the start, Hitler gave
up, that is to say, he admitted that the war was lost.

General Felix Steiner died in 1966. He wrote a most interesting work
called "Die Freiwilligen" (The Volunteers) in the mid 50's that can
still be obtained.

Hope this helps.

Terry

> I have recently finished an excellent book which deals strictly with the
> "defence" of Berlin in April, 1945. One of the main "characters" for lack of a
> better word is an SS General named Steiner.
>
> Problem is that *before* reading this book, I had never heard of a "General
> Steiner" and apparently, Hitler attached a great deal of hope on Steiner pulling
> the fat out of the fire even though Field Marshall Henricci, who replaced
> Guderian, was nominally in charge.
>
> Can anyone else provide me with more *pre 1945* information on this very
> interesting General Steiner? Unfortunately, the book does not discuss any
> contributions he may have made prior to the defence of Berlin.
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Chuck
>

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 07:11:20 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: QUEST: Sinking of the Indianapolis

Hello, Chuck!

Will respond or add my two cents' worth on this topic later on today.
You must understand that the Navy's attitude is that it can do no
wrong. They are right and all others are wrong. Anytime, to my way of
thinking, the Navy is caught in a scandal or is perceived to be at
fault, they will go on the offensive, overlook or completely ignore
facts to the contrary of their position, and the blame will always be
placed on someone else's shoulders, in this case Captain McVay.

Will write more later.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 07:14:17 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: QUEST: Americans in concentration camps?

> Received: from MAILQUEUE by PCAD (Mercury 1.11); Fri, 4 Mar 94 6:58:37 GMT-6
> Return-path: <@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU:[email-masked]>
> Received: from UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu by PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU (Mercury 1.11);
>     Fri, 4 Mar 94 6:58:33 GMT-6
> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU by UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2)
>    with BSMTP id 8225; Fri, 04 Mar 94 07:54:18 EST
> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@UBVM) by
>  UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3649; Fri,
>  4 Mar 1994 07:28:30 -0500

Hello, Cheryl!

There were some American soldiers of Jewish origin held at
Buchenwald. I don't know the exact number, but I have a taped
interview of one who was there and gave a graphic account of his
incarceration and treatment.

Terry

----------------------------------------------------------------------

> > Hope this doesn't explode. I was wodering if any citizens of the United
> > States of American were sent to any of the concentration camps?
> >
> > Rod Holmes                      | I want to drive drunk on the information
> > [email-masked]        | superhighway.
>
> Hi Rod,
>         The answer to you question about there being any Americans held
> in concentration camps is Yes.  There were at least 11 Americans held
> prisoner at the Concentration Camp Dachau.  I do not have the count on
> any of the others.
>
> C.K. Bryant
> *************************************************
> "The Riskier the road, the greater the profit."
>         The 62nd Rule of Acquisition
> *************************************************
>

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 14:17:26 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Bombing of Dresden /v1, v2

> thus spoke the keyboard of Jorrie S. Mackenzie:
> >
> > would it be safe to say that bombing england with the v-1 and v-2 was also
> > not morally deficient?
>
> In my opinion war itself is repugnant but the V1 & V2 weapond were actually
> aimed at military targets like airfields. Many missed their destination.

No, they were far to inaccurate to be aimed at something as small as an
airfield.  Most were fired at cities, and they often missed. London was
hit by 2419 V-1s out of about 8000 fired at the city. Antwerp was hit by
2448, but I don't know how many were fired this way...

Maybe Antwerp was some kind of military target, because it was important
for the supply lines of the allied armies; but London wasn't.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 07:17:30 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Gen. Steiner: Defence of Berlin

Hello, again, Chuck!

One more thing I failed to mention about General Felix Steiner. He
was one of only 159 German soldiers during WWII who was awarded the
Knight's Cross with Oakleaves and Swords. His military rank, I
mentioned, is equivalent to a three-star general or lieutenant-
general.

I have much more info on this officer and will gladly provide it. I
can supply dates of promotion, employment and dates of award. Please
let me know.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 07:31:19 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: The 106th, the Ardennes, and a "friend" of von Manteuff

> Received: from MAILQUEUE by PCAD (Mercury 1.11); Thu, 3 Mar 94 18:36:20 GMT-6
> Return-path: <@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU:[email-masked]>
> Received: from UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu by PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU (Mercury 1.11);
>     Thu, 3 Mar 94 18:36:15 GMT-6
> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU by UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2)
>    with BSMTP id 3745; Thu, 03 Mar 94 19:32:06 EST
> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@UBVM) by
>  UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3410; Thu,
>  3 Mar 1994 19:32:04 -0500

Hello, Lou!

Thanks for the response and I would like to respond to the points you
raised.

>      One reason for the successful surprise in the Ardennes,
> of course, was that Hitler didn't (have to) use ULTRA.  Thus,
> SHAEF's principle and most credible intelligence source gave
> no clue to the impending avalanche.

    That is very very true. Hitler's penchant for absolute secrecy
worked both ways. It hindered us in obtaining reliable info on the
impending attack quickly, but it also hampered the Germans as
knowledge of the attack was on a need-to-know basis. However, if
memory serves me correctly, weren't there some defecting Germans who
forewarned the Allies of the attack? That knowledge was either
discounted, overlooked or stalled along the way to higher
headquarters. I had read that the Bulge was basically an intelligence
failure, a term easily used to cover-up mistakes. Would appreciate
your thoughts.

    You are of course correct. Ultra was not used and prevented us
from acquiring specific and detailed info on that attack.

 >      I resigned from the Academy after New Cadet "Beast"
> Barracks and one academic semester.  Her name was Sylvia,
> a winsome little Swedish-Danish nymph who put me back
> together again in the Summer of '65.  (Remember the song?
> That's EXACTLY the way it was.)

    What a shame!

>      Incidentally, I note in the CHRONICLE that West Point
> is looking for a poly sci prof.  Bear?  Con?  Is the
> Academy starting to hire civilian faculty now?

>      As a cadet, I was a tie-up.  I would have probably
> gotten 40 kids and myself killed quickly in VN.  I occasionally
> wonder what it would have been like if I had stayed in (and
> survived), but (as you know) I can be fairly impolitic and
> suspect my career would have been accordingly short.  :-)

    I think you sell yourself short. There is no reason to think that
you wouldn't have done well. However, I think it takes great personal
courage to admit shortcomings, and I know it must have been a tough
time for you to make that decision to leave the Academy.

    Thanks again for your note.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 08:55:00 -0500
From:    GERHARD REMPEL <[email-masked]>
Subject: setting to nomail

Sorry,
Listserv tells me I am not subscribed, but I get tons of mail.

Larry where are you?? Can you help me set it to nomail for a while -
until I get up to snuff. Thanks.

Gerhard Rempel
GRempel@WNEC/Western New England College, Springfield, Ma 01119. USA

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 08:39:44 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: QUEST: Americans in concentration camps?

>
> Howdy All,
>
> Hope this doesn't explode. I was wodering if any citizens of the United
> States of American were sent to any of the concentration camps?

Considering all of the Americans who wound up in the Gulag, it'd be a real
stretch to believe none did.

British SOE operatives wound up in camps (one forged his own transfer/release
orders), so it's hard to believe that at least some OSS peopled weren't
there.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 10:31:14 EST
From:    GERMAN 101/102 LAB <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: The 106th, the Ardennes, and a "friend" of von Manteuffel

In regards to the Austrian, Egon Weiss, I recently read a short
reference to a US Army unit made up of Austrian emigrees.  Does
anyone have any solid references to such a unit or other units
(probably INTEL types) made up of German or Italian refugees?
Any sort of TELNET or FTP references would be most appreciated.

Dale Lally
Carnegie Language Center
St. Lawrence University
Canton NY 13617
dlal@slumus

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 10:48:59 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: setting to nomail

>
> Sorry,
> Listserv tells me I am not subscribed, but I get tons of mail.
>
> Larry where are you?? Can you help me set it to nomail for a while -
> until I get up to snuff. Thanks.
>
> Gerhard Rempel
> GRempel@WNEC/Western New England College, Springfield, Ma 01119. USA
>
Only you can change you options. I can delete you, but not much more.

The most common problem is that listserv doesn't recognize your address.
To find out exactly how you are known to the list, send the command

review wwii-l

to

[email-masked]

and you will get a listing of the current membership.

Sending

review wwii-l countries

will sort the membership by country of origin (of the address, not the
member ;-).

Once you have your listserv address in hand, show it to your wizards and
ask them why your not being recognized by listserv. This is purely a
function of the local software and requires a local solution.

If all else fails, I can remove you and you should re-subscribe when you
want to start receiving mail again.

Larry J

[email-masked]; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 11:00:48 -0400
From:    John Horner <[email-masked]>
Subject: TAC: Convoys vs. U-Boats

Greetings!

There have been a number of interesting posts recently concerning U-Boats
and the convoy system and I thought some information that I just came
across would be helpful.  Its from "The Military History Of World War II"
(Consultant Ed. Barrie Pitt) from the Miltary Press, New York.  On page 157
under the heading "The Science of U-Boat Hunting," the following is printed:

"It could be simply demonstrated that a single group of ships was far less
likely to be detected than a number of independents.  Independents suffered
losses at two to three times the rate of ships in convoy, but the Admiralty's
belief that the latter should not exceed 40 ships came under scrutiny.  Escorts
were allocated (ideally, at least) at three to a very small convoy, plus one
for each additional 10 ships.  This principal was shown to be anomolous
for applying it, say, to two separate convoys of 20 ships each, each would
need to be accompanied by five escorts, yet by combining the two convoys into
one of 40 ships, onlyu seven escorts would be required."

"With escorts in desperately short supply, the reasoning was attractive.
It was also correct, for though twice as many ships occupied twice the area,
their perimeter (assumed circle) increased by less than 50 percent.  To
extrapolate further, 60 ships had less than twice the perimeter of 20 and
100 less than 2 1/2 times.  Thus to keep the same spacing, all else being
equal, only 12 or 13 escorts were required for a 100 ship convoy, where
25 would have been needed for five 20-ship convoys, together with a higher
risk of detection.  Larger convoys were instituted in 1943 and halved the
loss rate."

After studying the mathamatics, it makes obvious sense, but until I really
looked at the situation, I never really understood the advantages of the
convoy system.

Auf Wiedersehen,

John Horner
SUNY Delhi, New York

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 10:11:00 CDT
From:    Roger Safian <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: QUEST: Sinking of the Indianapolis

Chuck,

> Recently, I saw a re-run on my satellite of a network film starring Richard
> Thomas (Walton's) dealing with our greatest Naval loss ever, the sinking of
> the Indianapolis by two Kaiten torpedos in July 1945 just after dropping off
> the extremely important cargo (the A-bomb).

The loss of the Indianapolis was a tragedy.  The lack of immediate rescue
compounded this.  I don't think that it is have ever been determined to
be "our greatest naval loss ever", despite what the movie implied.  It
was not sunk by Keiten's, but with conventional torpedos.

> I was absolutely horrified by two things. Could someone familar with how the
> Navy works please explain. It would seem to me that "zig-zagging" or not, the
> ship still would have sunk.

If the ship was zig-zagging, there is a chance that the sub might now have
been able to get the shot off, certainly it would have been more difficult.

> Why was Capt. McVay (sp?) made into a scapegoat by the Chief of Naval
> Operations????? It wasn't his fault!!!!!!!! Captain McVay later killed
> himself - actually, much later, say, around 1969 or so.

The Armed Forces have never taken kindly to an officer in his position.
If your command suffers, for lack of a better word, a great defeat, there
is an excellent chance that your career is over.  Witness the 106'th at the
Bulge, II corps at Kasserine, Kimmel at Pearl, etc.

> Second, I was *HORRIFIED* that during his court-martial the Navy would have
> the unmitigated gall and audacity to besmirch the good name of Captain McVay
> basedon the testimony of the Jap submarine commander!!

You watch to many Hollywood war movies from the 40's.  The war is over, and
"Jap" is an insult.  The word your looking for is "Japanese".  Do you
think it would be possible to take a less hostile attitude in your postings?

> I consider that nothing short of utter blasphemy. Maybe I'm overreacting
> here. I don't know. But to bring this horrible miscretant from Tokyeo to
> testify against one of our boys makes me absolutely ill. The very thought
> of it!

You are.  Your post is very insulting and unwarrented.  The
main reason I got off the .history newsgroups is because of the lack
of proffesionalism they exibit.  This list has been a joy to read,
mainly because the postings are not inflamitory or insulting.  I am
probably out of line here as well, and shall chastise myself for
responding, but I hope you give this some serious thought before your
next post.

                                                    Roger

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 10:53:50 -0600
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: QUEST: FDR/Advance Knowledge of PH

> I realize that this is an unwelcome topic, but seeing it reminds me of a
> book I read in high school called The Paladin.
>
> Now that I have broached the subject, would any of you full time
> historians care to coment on this information.  I am curious if it is
> true, and, if so, how much.

Hi John,

I guess what strikes me odd about it is that if the US was tipped off
of an imminent attack at Pearl, or anywhere else for that matter, why
would anyone think that the US would not declare war on the
perpetrator?

Suppose word had gotten thorough and we deployed against the Japanese
fleet.  I cannot believe that a battle would not have ensued thus
plunking us in the war anyway.  It defies logic.  Would we have just
thought that this was some kind of Japanese regatta out for an early
morning goldcup race?  One lap around Hawaii and back to Yokohama for
saki shooters?  FDR was president not Red Skelton!  We may not all be
geniuses but really... :-)

Have a good weekend,  Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 10:58:56 -0600
From:    Jeff Dingbaum <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TAC: Convoys vs. U-Boats

John Horner <[email-masked]> writes:
> "With escorts in desperately short supply, the reasoning was attractive.
> It was also correct, for though twice as many ships occupied twice the area,
> their perimeter (assumed circle) increased by less than 50 percent.  To
> extrapolate further, 60 ships had less than twice the perimeter of 20 and
> 100 less than 2 1/2 times.  Thus to keep the same spacing, all else being
> equal, only 12 or 13 escorts were required for a 100 ship convoy, where
> 25 would have been needed for five 20-ship convoys, together with a higher
> risk of detection.  Larger convoys were instituted in 1943 and halved the
> loss rate."

This makes sense in terms of escaping detection, but I am still thinking
back to earlier posts on the subject. It was said that captains didn't want
to join convoys because they didn't want to take orders.  Given that they
were used to giving orders and not taking them, I can understand this.

But I *must* be missing something, because no one has said anything about
the biggest obvious advantage of convoys - if your ship gets hit you have
a chance at getting picked up.  If you are on your own in the North Atlantic
and your ship goes down, your done.  With other ships around it would seem
that you at least have a chance to get picked up by an escort or something.

Lets see now, with a convoy you have an escort or three, you have someone
to fish you out if you get sunk, and your chance of getting spotted in the
first place is not much greater than if you were alone.  On the flip side,
if you are on your own you have a slightly smaller chance of getting spotted,
you die if you sink, and you don't have to take orders.  Wow what a choice.

Is my argument flawed?  It would seem to me that a convoy would be the
way to go.

Jeff Dingbaum
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 10:36:48 CST
From:    Michael P LaForge <[email-masked]>
Subject: Info/ U-Boats

 }very interested in getting in touch with an organization
called CAMP - Council on Abandoned Military Posts.

They used to be based in Arlington VA, but seem not to be
listed in the fone directories. Any assistance would be
greatly appreciated.

An interesting little book called "Defenses of Narragansett Bay
in World War II"; Walter K. Schroder, Rhode Island Bicentennial Foundation
1980, ISBN: 0-917012-22-4, LOC Cat Card # 80-51763, details the destruction
of several U-boats, notably the U-550 and the U-853. the book also gives
some details on the landing of spies by the U-202, U-1230, and the U-584.

******************************************************************************
* Mike LaForge, GS-12, QASAS                                                 *
* U.S. Army Technical Center for Explosive Safety (USATCES)                  *
* Explosive Safety Logistics Division (ESL)                                  *
* Defense Environmental Restoration Program - Formerly Used Defense Sites    *
* (DERP FUDS)                                                                *
* DSN: 585-8762  FAX: 585-8769  COMM: 815-273-8762                           *
******************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 11:36:07 CST
From:    jesse carnes <[email-masked]>
Subject: Polesti raids misinformation

Dear All ;

I spoke with Ed Kueppers, 8th Air Force Historical Society, and he gave me
some data which helped as concerns my lost uncle, Ben Olds who was purportedly
shot down over Polesti ... as a fighter pilot.

Novice that I am, I was unawares that the earliest raids over Polesti were
basically UNescorted sorties.
Makes sense, in that we did not set up bases in Italy until after late 1943.

What this boils down to is possibly this :  My uncle Ben may have flown for
for a FG out of England and he was shot down by the Luft. as he escorted
B-24s on their first leg of the trip, before having to turn back to England,
500-700 miles being the possible max range of his bird without an extra drop
tank.  So maybe the Luft. flamed him as the main force was entering Festung
Europa on their way, eventually unescorted, toward Polesti in '43 or 44.

Again, his family was the richest oil family in the US at c.1942 and I need
to check which are the three largest oil co.'s in Oklahoma today, let's say,
and see if his family still retains ownership and then take it from there.

Jesse Carnes

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 11:54:55 CST
From:    jesse carnes <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Polesti raids misinformation

Could someone tell me WHEN the main raids over Polesti {Ploiesti) Rumania
occurred?

By doing this, I might be able to NARROW my search time of Oklahoma's
major newspaper(s).

Without a restricted list, I would virtually have to search ALL of microfilm
entries for 1943 and 1944 for an obituary of my uncle in 2 or 3 major Oklahoma
newspapers.

Thanx a million!

Jesse Carnes
[email-masked]
Baton Rouge, LA
"The world's greatest lover of the Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress"

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 12:08:34 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: U boats

> Received: from MAILQUEUE by PCAD (Mercury 1.11); Wed, 2 Mar 94 8:26:05 GMT-6
> Return-path: <@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU:[email-masked]>
> Received: from UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu by PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU (Mercury 1.11);
>     Wed, 2 Mar 94 8:25:52 GMT-6
> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU by UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2)
>    with BSMTP id 9813; Wed, 02 Mar 94 09:21:52 EST
> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@UBVM) by
>  UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9428; Wed,
>  2 Mar 1994 09:07:25 -0500

Hello, again, Bill!

After reading this for the second time, I find I didn't answer all of
it the first time. My apologies.

         Something for the list, I know what countries were at war
>          but during WW-II what was happening in South America????

    My understanding is that the SA countries who did declare war on
the Axis did so rather late in the conflict, somewhere between late
1942-1943. Their contributions, and some have made excellent posts to
this effect, were not substantial, more on the line of small units
that offered more support than having any real impact on events.

>           I mean i dont remember hearing about George patton of brazil.
>         my real question is did life go on there as normal, or were
>         they affected by shortages and rationing also????

   Given the remoteness of SA from the main events going on in Europe
life was not all that affected and life was pretty near normal. One
advantage for us, anyway, was that we had access to airfields in
Argentina which were used as stop-overs for rest and refueling for
ferrying aircraft across the South Atlantic for use in the Far East.

> I know paraguay or argentina was somewhat used by the nazi's
>         i think,,as a friendly port.... I have not run across anybooks
>        on this so I thought i would run this by you.

    I haven't  either. My only knowledge of this subject is gleaned
from other accounts where the area of SA is dealt with as an
ancillary topic.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 12:23:26 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Rohm shot

> Received: from MAILQUEUE by PCAD (Mercury 1.11); Tue, 1 Mar 94 22:59:23 GMT-6
> Return-path: <@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU:[email-masked]>
> Received: from UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu by PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU (Mercury 1.11);
>     Tue, 1 Mar 94 22:59:18 GMT-6
> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU by UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2)
>    with BSMTP id 2567; Tue, 01 Mar 94 23:55:22 EST
> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@UBVM) by
>  UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8290; Tue,
>  1 Mar 1994 23:55:21 -0500

Hello, Christopher!

I just wanted to add a comment to your own, and I would appreciate
your thoughts.

> >             rohm being shot had nothing to do with his partner in
> >           Bed...He had the Sa, Brown shirts... as opposed to HImmler who
> >         had the SS.... Himmler felt threatened by Rohm as Rohm still
> >          carried weight with the furher.........Also rohm if my memorey
> >         serves me correctly was of the old school of German officers
> >          though I admit I may be totally wrong on that....
>
> Yes, you're totally wrong on that! :)

> Roehm was the antithesis of the Prussian junkers.

    I agree with that statement that Roehm was the very antithesis of
the Prussian Junkers. The old officer corps would never have
tolerated a man such as Roehm within its ranks.

> He was a homosexual, had a reputation for child molestation and wanted
> to replace the Reichsweher/Wehrmacht with a working class party army using
> the SA as the base.

    True, but I have never heard of Roehm molesting children, nor his
having the reputation as such. Someone had posted that he preferred
young males between the ages 18-25 which is right on the money. I am
only curious as to where you got this info.

    Your last part of the comment is also correct, and that was the
ultimate dream of Roehm.

> The Army was even more appalled at the thought of Roehm than of the rest of
> the nazis.  When relations between Roehm and Hitler deteriorated, Roehm was
> eliminated as a bone to be thrown to the Army, which certainly shed no tears
> over his demise.

    That was the price to get the Army behind Hitler, i.e., Roehm had
to go, but Hitler really stewed over the sacrifice of his "friend" as
he was only one of two with whom he ever used the familar "Du". It
was not as easy a decision for him to take as your comment seems to
suggest. The Army was only too glad to see Roehm go.

    Thank you very much for allowing me to add my comments.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 12:28:49 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Bombing of Dresden /v1, v2

> Received: from MAILQUEUE by PCAD (Mercury 1.11); Fri, 4 Mar 94 7:20:11 GMT-6
> Return-path: <@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU:[email-masked]>
> Received: from UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu by PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU (Mercury 1.11);
>     Fri, 4 Mar 94 7:20:00 GMT-6
> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU by UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2)
>    with BSMTP id 8302; Fri, 04 Mar 94 08:16:16 EST
> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@UBVM) by
>  UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7606; Fri,
>  4 Mar 1994 08:16:15 -0500

Hello, Emmanuel!

Your remarks are right on the money. Those missles were intended for
one thing and one thing only and that was to terrorize the civilian
population in London, and hopefully divert enough attention and
military hardware from the Western Front to give the Germans a
breathing space. From the standpoint of the Germans, if military
targets could be successfully attacked with those missles, then so
much the better.

    Thanks.

    Terry
------------------------------------------------------------------
 > would it be safe to say that bombing england with the v-1 and v-
2 was also > > > not morally deficient?
> >
> > In my opinion war itself is repugnant but the V1 & V2 weapond were actually
> > aimed at military targets like airfields. Many missed their destination.
>
> No, they were far to inaccurate to be aimed at something as small as an
> airfield.  Most were fired at cities, and they often missed. London was
> hit by 2419 V-1s out of about 8000 fired at the city. Antwerp was hit by
> 2448, but I don't know how many were fired this way...
>
> Maybe Antwerp was some kind of military target, because it was important
> for the supply lines of the allied armies; but London wasn't.
>
> Emmanuel Gustin
>

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 12:43:02 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Polesti raids misinformation

> Received: from MAILQUEUE by PCAD (Mercury 1.11); Fri, 4 Mar 94 11:51:46 GMT-6
> Return-path: <@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU:[email-masked]>
> Received: from UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu by PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU (Mercury 1.11);
>     Fri, 4 Mar 94 11:51:43 GMT-6
> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU by UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2)
>    with BSMTP id 8731; Fri, 04 Mar 94 12:47:42 EST
> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@UBVM) by
>  UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9482; Fri,
>  4 Mar 1994 12:46:05 -0500

Hello, Jesse!

 I would like to add my thoughts to your comments.

> Novice that I am, I was unawares that the earliest raids over Polesti were
> basically UNescorted sorties.
> Makes sense, in that we did not set up bases in Italy until after late 1943.

    Ploesti was bombed a total of 44 times during the course of the
war. There was even one raid of P-38's loaded down with bombs that
was sent to attack the refineries there. It had long been a juicy and
tempting target to American planners. The problem was always
distance and the fact that it was so heavily defended for obvious
reasons.

   The big raid on Ploesti in 1942, I think, in which we lost so many
B-24's were part of the IXth Air Force operating out of North Africa.
There were 5 combat cameramen that made the raid and only one
survived, and the only footage you will ever see of that raid, and I
think this cameraman shot a total of 526 feet of film during the
course of that raid, was all shot by this man. His name was Jerry
Joswick who wrote a fascinating book on this topic.

Talk about American ownership of properties in Nazi-occupied Europe,
this country had extensive interests, as you may well imagine, in
Ploesti, Rumania. I would have to recheck my source, but of the 5 (?)
refineries there, we owned 2 (?). They also had names, but they slip
my mind.

    Thanks.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 12:46:49 -0600
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TAC: Convoys vs. U-Boats

> This makes sense in terms of escaping detection, but I am still thinking
> back to earlier posts on the subject. It was said that captains didn't want
> to join convoys because they didn't want to take orders.  Given that they
> were used to giving orders and not taking them, I can understand this.

Hi Jeff,

I can't resist this but your comment here has jarred loose an old
joke I heard a while back....

It seems this newly promoted Captain was out on his battlewagon on
night maneuvers when a light appeared dead ahead.

Calling his signalman to the bridge he orders the sailor to send a
message telling the oncoming ship to come about and get out of the
way "cuz we're comin' through".

After much mutual flashing the sailor reports that we are being
ordered to turn away.

Getting surly the Captain orders another message but this time
ordering him to turn away by order of Captain Soandso.

Much flashing and the sailor timidly reports that we are being
ordered to turn away by order of Chief Petty Office Thusandsuch.

Closer and closer the two come.

Livid, the Captain orders the sailor to signal a last chance come
about before collision "tell him were a battleship"

Much flashing and the sailor comes back and reports the Chiefs
reply: "Yes, sir, if you insist but I'm in a lighthouse". :-)

> Is my argument flawed?  It would seem to me that a convoy would be the
> way to go.
>
> Jeff Dingbaum

Good point about being rescued much easier in a convoy.  I don't see
why they wouldn't want to do that either.  One of my instructors at
Texas A&M, Richard Steffy, sailed on merchantmen during the war
having had 3 blown out from under him.  He said they used mattresses
to plug holes from torpedoes for damage control.

Another good friend was stuck in Scotland with his mother when war
broke out stranding him there.  His father was a merchant sailor and
they would write letters to try to stay in touch.  Months went by and
no letter from him which was not too unusual but then they got a
bundle of their letters back with a rubber stamp on them saying
"Return to Sender, Ship Sunk".  That was the only notice they
received of the his father's death.

Sorry for flim-flaming your emotions but that's the way war is.
Sometimes you laugh, sometimes you cry.

Regards,  Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 12:46:04 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Ben Olds flamed over Polesti

> Received: from MAILQUEUE by PCAD (Mercury 1.11); Thu, 3 Mar 94 15:34:31 GMT-6
> Return-path: <@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU:[email-masked]>
> Received: from UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu by PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU (Mercury 1.11);
>     Thu, 3 Mar 94 15:34:23 GMT-6
> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU by UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2)
>    with BSMTP id 3278; Thu, 03 Mar 94 16:29:35 EST
> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@UBVM) by
>  UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0549; Thu,

Hello, again, Jesse!

I will cite you two sources that I have seen on the Ploesti raids and
will provide them to you on Monday. One does come to mind:

    Combat Cameraman by Jerry Joswick
    Ploesti by (?)

    Will post to you on Monday or tomorrow, as I have to be up here
tomorrow.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 12:50:48 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Best Aredennes book (?)

> Received: from MAILQUEUE by PCAD (Mercury 1.11); Thu, 3 Mar 94 18:53:29 GMT-6
> Return-path: <@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU:[email-masked]>
> Received: from UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu by PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU (Mercury 1.11);
>     Thu, 3 Mar 94 18:53:19 GMT-6
> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU by UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2)
>    with BSMTP id 7179; Thu, 03 Mar 94 19:48:46 EST
> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@UBVM) by
>  UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4234; Thu,
>  3 Mar 1994 19:44:59 -0500

Hello, again Lou!

I would like to add some others.
> Incidentally, the best introductory book -- I think -- is
>   John Toland's BATTLE.  You can see/feel the huge Tigers and
>   Panthers sneaking through the pines.

    Amen to that. Another I liked very much was John S. D.
Eisenhower's book "The Bitter Woods".

   "The Battle of the Bulge" by Robert S. Merriam was also well done.

   Terry

 > Lou Coatney, WIU Library (until 30 Jun 94)
>

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 12:53:30 CST
From:    jesse carnes <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Polesti raids misinformation

Professor Moore ;

Thanx so much!

Jesse Carnes

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 13:56:18 EST
From:    Robert E George <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: QUEST: Americans in concentration camps?

>
> On Thu, 3 Mar 1994, rod holmes wrote:
>
> > Howdy All,
> >
> > Hope this doesn't explode. I was wodering if any citizens of the United
> > States of American were sent to any of the concentration camps?
> >
> > Rod Holmes                      | I want to drive drunk on the information
> > [email-masked]        | superhighway.
>
> Hi Rod,
>         The answer to you question about there being any Americans held
> in concentration camps is Yes.  There were at least 11 Americans held
> prisoner at the Concentration Camp Dachau.  I do not have the count on
> any of the others.
>
> C.K. Bryant
> *************************************************
> "The Riskier the road, the greater the profit."
>         The 62nd Rule of Acquisition
> *************************************************
>

Were these American military/diplomatic/espionage/covert operations
personnel or were they Americans whose American status was not recognized/
acknowledged by the Germans (e.g., two Polish Jews emigrate to U.S. in
1905, have a child in 1910, return in 1920, and the child is later taken
to a concentration camp)?

Robert George

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 13:12:08 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: The 106th, the Ardennes, and a friend of von

> Received: from MAILQUEUE by PCAD (Mercury 1.11); Fri, 4 Mar 94 5:41:26 GMT-6
> Return-path: <@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU:[email-masked]>
> Received: from UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu by PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU (Mercury 1.11);
>     Fri, 4 Mar 94 5:41:18 GMT-6
> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU by UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2)
>    with BSMTP id 4596; Fri, 04 Mar 94 06:36:54 EST
> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@UBVM) by
>  UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0646; Fri,
>  4 Mar 1994 06:34:13 -0500

    Hello, Barry!

    Read your most interesting post relating to Lou's original. I
have some questions.

> Yes, West Point is looking for civilian faculty.  The superintendents
> of all three academies had a major meeting with congressional leaders and the
> service chiefs awhile back (1-2 years ago) and a decision was made to
> increase the civilian faculty at the academies.  West Point WILL NOT be going
> to an all-civilian faculty if that is what you think (from your message).

    Will the civilian faculty be required to wear uniforms? If
not, will this not send mixed messages to the cadets? What effect
will this have on discipline? The academy, it seems to me has access
to many highly-qualified officers with the necessary credentials to
offer quality instruction there. I am not so certain that many
professional educators would necessarily improve the level of
academic excellence. What sort of criteria would be implemented to
attract and employ civilian professionals. Would there be a tenure-
track system implemented? What about compensation? Would it be on a
level or exceeding the level currently used within the Army? Also, do
you or does the administration there envisage having two separate pay
scales, one for military and one for civilian? Do you for one really
think this will improve the quality of your graduates?

> The plan is over the next 15 years to increase the permanent (I say again
> permanent) faculty to approximately 50% civilian.  There is no anticipated
> change in the the rotating faculty (guys like me) because of the recognized
> need for officer role models to teach the cadets.  The reason for the increase
> in the civilian faculty is to gain the insight and experience of professional
> educators, to maintain and/or improve the level of academic excellence; but at
> the same time not change the overall academy experience.  Since the permanent
> faculty is around 36% of the total faculty, this will mean that West Point
> will reach about 18% civilian faculty by the year 2002.

    I really wonder if that goal is attainable, in that the academy
experience will not be affected by the inclusion of civilian
instructors. It seems to me that the Academy may employ civilian
instructors who may not fully understand what the Academy is all
about, and could affect discipline. I realize that I am prejudiced,
because I have always felt that all the service academies have access
to the very best of whatever is required to fulfill the mission, and,
I, for one, would need some convincing to fully support your
administration's position that professional civilian instructors can
do as better or better job than with the staff you have.

    Please let me know your thoughts or anyone else for that matter.

    All the best.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 13:28:45 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Polesti raids misinformation

> Received: from MAILQUEUE by PCAD (Mercury 1.11); Fri, 4 Mar 94 12:07:49 GMT-6
> Return-path: <@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU:[email-masked]>
> Received: from UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu by PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU (Mercury 1.11);
>     Fri, 4 Mar 94 12:07:37 GMT-6
> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU by UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2)
>    with BSMTP id 8766; Fri, 04 Mar 94 13:03:46 EST
> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@UBVM) by
>  UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1202; Fri,
>  4 Mar 1994 13:02:55 -0500

Hello, again, Jesse!

> Could someone tell me WHEN the main raids over Polesti {Ploiesti) Rumania
> occurred?

    I can get that info for you too. If someone hasn't posted that to
you before tomorrow,  I will.

    Thanks.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 13:39:44 CST
From:    Steve Alvin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TAC: Convoys vs. U-Boats

You might have a better chance of being picked up in a convoy.
But, (and it is a really big but), nobody in their right mind
would slow down and stop for you, particularly at night and
particularly with a U-boat, or possibly more, sitting out there
waiting.  Think back to what happen to the three British armored
cruisers at the beginning of WW I.  One was torpedo, so the other
two stop to pick up survivors--all they did was make themselves
easy targets and they were sunk as well!

--
Steve Alvin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 13:47:56 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Why I detest Ike

> Received: from MAILQUEUE by PCAD (Mercury 1.11); Fri, 25 Feb 94 16:15:45 GMT-6
> Return-path: <@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU:[email-masked]>
> Received: from UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu by PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU (Mercury 1.11);
>     Fri, 25 Feb 94 16:15:39 GMT-6
> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU by UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2)
>    with BSMTP id 4392; Fri, 25 Feb 94 17:11:12 EST
> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@UBVM) by
>  UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9597; Fri,
>  25 Feb 1994 16:53:14 -0500

Hello, again, Barry!

Heard you all had had another huge snow storm come through your area.
How about sending some of that down this way? We could use the
moisture. It's shirt-sleeve weather here.

> I think you answered the mail on that one very well.  Ike was the right man
> for the job of supreme allied commander.  Just as George Patton was the right
> man to command 3rd Army.

    Thank you for the kind words. I did my best, but there were other
things that could have been added in retrospect. As far as I am
concerned, Ike was the only man for that job, and the team he put
together was the best that could be found anywhere.

> I think I will leave my opinions of Monty to myself, especially after he
> destroyed a division's worth of good paratroopers at Arnhem in an ill conceived
> plan.

    Didn't he though? I think the real idea or impetus for that
operation came from General "Boy" Browning, and Monty capitalized on
it. The approval of the whole idea of Market-Garden, as I understand
it and view it, was as a sop to Monty and, above all, to Churchill.
Had it succeeded, I wonder if the Allies had been prepared to exploit
the victory. I don't think they were. I don't think they had the
immediate resources to follow through. Had the operation succeeded, I
can only see them holding on long enough to build up resources and
launch a final attack into the Ruhr, but this would have given the
Germans time to regroup and reinforce, and the going would have been
very difficult.

What do you or any others think?

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 14:16:39 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Rohm shot

>
> > Received: from MAILQUEUE by PCAD (Mercury 1.11); Tue, 1 Mar 94 22:59:23 GMT-6
> > Return-path: <@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU:[email-masked]>
> > Received: from UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu by PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU (Mercury 1.11);
> >     Tue, 1 Mar 94 22:59:18 GMT-6
> > Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU by UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2)
> >    with BSMTP id 2567; Tue, 01 Mar 94 23:55:22 EST
> > Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@UBVM) by
> >  UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8290; Tue,
> >  1 Mar 1994 23:55:21 -0500
>
>
> Hello, Christopher!
>
> I just wanted to add a comment to your own, and I would appreciate
> your thoughts.
>
> > >             rohm being shot had nothing to do with his partner in
> > >           Bed...He had the Sa, Brown shirts... as opposed to HImmler who
> > >         had the SS.... Himmler felt threatened by Rohm as Rohm still
> > >          carried weight with the furher.........Also rohm if my memorey
> > >         serves me correctly was of the old school of German officers
> > >          though I admit I may be totally wrong on that....
> >
> > Yes, you're totally wrong on that! :)
>
> > Roehm was the antithesis of the Prussian junkers.
>
>     I agree with that statement that Roehm was the very antithesis of
> the Prussian Junkers. The old officer corps would never have
> tolerated a man such as Roehm within its ranks.
>
Somebody posted a message that he'd been a captain during the war, but if
so, I don't know when he was commissioned.  The ranks of the enlisted
instructors at the Infantry School in 1981 were full to overflowing with
rifed former officers.  I suspect that he was commissioned during the war.
I don't have a biography of him.  Maybe I ought to find one, if one exists.

> > He was a homosexual, had a reputation for child molestation and wanted
> > to replace the Reichsweher/Wehrmacht with a working class party army using
> > the SA as the base.
>
>     True, but I have never heard of Roehm molesting children, nor his
> having the reputation as such. Someone had posted that he preferred
> young males between the ages 18-25 which is right on the money. I am
> only curious as to where you got this info.
>
"Order of the Death's Head".  It refers to his and his friends' recruiting
of sexual partners from a highschool.  As someone else pointed out, that
raises the question of what the age of consent was in Germany at the time.
I suppose it's a valid question.

> > The Army was even more appalled at the thought of Roehm than of the rest of
> > the nazis.  When relations between Roehm and Hitler deteriorated, Roehm was
> > eliminated as a bone to be thrown to the Army, which certainly shed no tears
> > over his demise.
>
>     That was the price to get the Army behind Hitler, i.e., Roehm had
> to go, but Hitler really stewed over the sacrifice of his "friend" as
> he was only one of two with whom he ever used the familar "Du". It
> was not as easy a decision for him to take as your comment seems to
> suggest. The Army was only too glad to see Roehm go.
>
As was Himmler who hated and feared him even more than the Wehrmacht leaders.
>
>     Thank you very much for allowing me to add my comments.
>
You're welcome.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 06:43:30 -0800
From:    "Office TH325, Extension 3566" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: U-Boats in American waters

>He also gives an account of the sinking of one sub near the mouth of the
>Kennebec River.  Evidently coast observers spotted the U-boat travelling
>on the surface, going north toward Seguin Island.  Just starting around
>Small Point the American coastal defense guns at Popham Battery were
>swung about ready to blast her when she came around the point.  However,
>the call came in for them to stand down since Navy destroyers were
>speeding toward the area and a "skipped" shell could endanger them.  The
>sub came around the point but began diving...the Navy did show up and
>depth-charge the area...and claimed a kill.  I can remember the date but
>it had to have been early in the war.  Had the battery at Popham had a
>chance to fire they would have been the only engagement with an enemy by
>shore batteries in the CONUS during the war.   A similar incident
>happened in Oregon in 1942; a coastal battery had a Japanese submarine,
>traveling on the surface, right in their sights but the order to fire
>never came...I think the battery commander didnt want to give away their
>position or something like that (I bet moral at that gun went to rock
>bottom...OOOPPPS...I mean "morale").
>

I read about the Oregon incident not long ago but I can't remember
where.  I do remember that the costal guns were so antiquated that the
subs guns outranged it.  All the sub had to do was stand out of range
and shell the costal guns with no danger to itself.  I've gone through
the remains of a costal battery here in the state of Washington.
Interesting.

John Riegsecker
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 14:32:35 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Rohm shot

> Received: from MAILQUEUE by PCAD (Mercury 1.11); Fri, 4 Mar 94 14:10:07 GMT-6
> Return-path: <@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU:[email-masked]>
> Received: from UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu by PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU (Mercury 1.11);
>     Fri, 4 Mar 94 14:09:58 GMT-6
> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU by UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2)
>    with BSMTP id 8736; Fri, 04 Mar 94 15:06:05 EST
> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@UBVM) by

Hello, again, Christopher!

Thanks for responding to my comments. I would like to respond to
yours.

> Somebody posted a message that he'd been a captain during the war, but if
> so, I don't know when he was commissioned.  The ranks of the enlisted
> instructors at the Infantry School in 1981 were full to overflowing with
> rifed former officers.  I suspect that he was commissioned during the war.
> I don't have a biography of him.  Maybe I ought to find one, if one exists.

    Roehm was indeed a captain in the German Army in WWI. I have no
details as to his employment, but it is known that he served as an
officer in WWI with the rank of captain. Yes, he had to have been
commissioned during the war.

    I have only seen Roehm's biography in relation to other contexts
that deal with the "Night of the Long Knives". I have not seen
anything that deals with Roehm in and of itself, and one would be
interesting, perhaps rather thin in size, bu interesting.

> "Order of the Death's Head".  It refers to his and his friends' recruiting
> of sexual partners from a highschool.  As someone else pointed out, that
> raises the question of what the age of consent was in Germany at the time.
> I suppose it's a valid question.

    Interesting. I hadn't read Hoehne's book, although I have it. I
have not had the time to access it. I will have to read it. I have
read several things on Roehm but that is the first reference I have
encountered that specifically nails Roehm as a pedephile.

> >     That was the price to get the Army behind Hitler, i.e., Roehm
had
> > to go, but Hitler really stewed over the sacrifice of his "friend" as
> > he was only one of two with whom he ever used the familar "Du". It
> > was not as easy a decision for him to take as your comment seems to
> > suggest. The Army was only too glad to see Roehm go.
> >
> As was Himmler who hated and feared him even more than the
Wehrmacht leaders.

    Also, so true. Himmler and Roehm were obvious rivals, and it only
made Himmler that much more desirous of helping Adolf to rid himself
of his liabilities. Perhaps but only from the standpoint of his
relationship to Hitler and the fact that Roehm controlled the largest
armed force (SA) in the Party.

    Thanks again for the source, and I will read this work.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 20:57:08 GMT
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: Peenemunde, V2 etc

        Hey all

Does anyone  have any info on Peenemunde or the Projects concieved
there? Like on the development of the A-4 (later called V-2) and the
submerge-launched missles fired from U.511 (KorvKpt Fritz Steinhoff) on
the summer of 1942.

Also, what were V-3 and V-4? I know that either one was a huge cannon
aimed for London I think. Any info?

Did any of the other "secret-weapons" exist or were under development?
Like Death rays and stuff like that? Or was it just hype :) No chemical
stuff?

Bye

Gudmundur J. Helgason

E-mail:    [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 15:05:38 -0400
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <[email-masked]>
Subject: book excerpt RE: USAAF 4 March 1944

I've typed an excerpt from the book "B-17s Over Berlin:  Personal
Stories from the 95th BG (H)", edited by Ian L. Hawkins, published
by Brassey's in 1990, ISBN #0-08-040569-X.  The excerpt recounts
an incident during the 4 March 1944 raid to Berlin.  Any typos
are mine.

But first, my explanatory notes...

Most of the 8th AF turned back that day, attacking targets of
opportunity.  29 B-17s of the 95th BG, plus elements of the
100th BG, ignored the recall and continued on to Berlin.  The
lead aircraft was "I'll Be Around", being flown that day by
Lt. Alvin Brown and crew.  Lt. Col. Griff Mumford was aboard
as mission commander.  The small formation made it to Berlin,
escorted by P-51s from the 367th FG.  The 357th's Chuck Yeager
was credited with his first victory that day over Berlin.
BTW, Brown's usual B-17 was named "Blues in the Reich", but
was not available that day.  Brown and crew returned to Berlin
two days later in "their" aircraft.  "I'll Be Around" earned
the distinction of being the first B-17 over Berlin, but
ironically, could not unload its lethal cargo.  The bomb bay
doors were frozen shut.  After the formation left Berlin, they
began a gradual descent due to a shortage of oxygen supplies.
Brown unloaded on a target of opportunity, a bridge, an
hour and a half later, from 12,500 feet.  "I'll Be Around"
was lost on 1 April 1944, with a different crew (all survived
as POWs).  Lt. Brown survived to complete his tour and now
lives in Florida.  In 1992, he graciously answered several of
my (telephoned) questions, and sent me an unpublished photograph
of the "I'll Be Around", so that I could correctly paint a
model of it.

Begin Quote:
Technical Sargent Frank Atterbury, radio operator, B-17 231320,
"I'll Be Around":  For the sake of brevity, I'll skip the details of
the horrendous weather conditions that day and how the 95th corralled
a small force of B-17s and took them to Berlin and back.  These
events, I believe, are well known.  What apparently isn't well
known is the story of the Berlin recall.  Hopefully, this will
clarify the conjecture.

The (my note: recall) message came in bomber code that consisted of
groups of four letters without any particular sequence but
corresponded to a particular word.  An example might be, PQAM, which
might have been the code word for "obscured".

The collective code word that day was RZNC (my note: with a bar over
the C) - the dash over the letter C meant that in our particular use
of the International Morse Code the letter C would have an extra
dash in it and to come across as "dash dot dash dot dash".  The
collective call sign RZNC (bar) was the call sign that our bas station
would use to call everyone on the mission.  It was the greeting or
salutation of the message.

The actual message came across as follows:  ABANDON OPS. RETURN TO
BASE 1200 HOURS. RZNC(bar).   The message came from a nearby source.
That was obvious from the clarity, sound, and tone of the signal.
The collective call sign was used as a signature to the message -
which was an error - and there was no greeting call sign used at
all.  The messages came across several times, but with a significant
interval.  There was no possibility that I could have mistaken
the signature for a greeting.

I reported the mesage as received to the cockpit and told the pilots
that the message as sent did not constitute a recall per standard
operating procedure.

Upon returning to Horham (my note: the 95th BG's base in England),
it was confirmed to me by Col. Chester Gilger, 95th BG CO at the time,
that there had not been a recall sent from England.  Where then, did
the message come from?  I am sure that it came from an enemy radio
transmitter in an almost successful attempt to turn back an
historic event.

The courageous decision to continue toward our assigned target,
Berlin, came from the cockpit, naturally.  If I may paraphrase
a famous newscaster:  "and that's the way it was for March 4, 1944."
End quote

Dennis E. Sparks
[email-masked]
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 15:07:37 -0600
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Rohm shot

Chris writes:
> Somebody posted a message that he'd been a captain during the war, but if
> so, I don't know when he was commissioned.  The ranks of the enlisted
> instructors at the Infantry School in 1981 were full to overflowing with
> rifed former officers.  I suspect that he was commissioned during the war.

I looked it up in Robert Wistrich's book _Who's Who in Nazi Germany_
and he says that Roehm was wounded three times in WW1 once getting
half his nose shot off but didn't indicate what his rank was.  It
said he had been a Captain in the Reichswehr which goes against what
folks have been saying about him being so much apart from Prussian
Officer ideal.  To be allowed to remain in the 100,000 man Reichswehr
he had to have his ducks in a row to some extent.  Its sort of like
the military today in the US, very competitive.

Terry Moore writes:
> >     True, but I have never heard of Roehm molesting children, nor his
> > having the reputation as such. Someone had posted that he preferred
> > young males between the ages 18-25 which is right on the money. I am
> > only curious as to where you got this info.

The Who's Who says nothing about children either.  It further
mentioned that Hitler personnally arrived with the SS men to arrest
him but another book I had read indicated that Hitler sort of took
the weekend off.  Don't remember which one that was.

Cheers, Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 13:39:46 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: QUEST: Americans in concentration camps?

Yes, numerous American citizens were sent the German convcentration camps.
Not only Jews -- severa hundred American airmen also ended up in places
like Buchenwald. The consequences of the Gestapo catching them,

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 14:06:02 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: U-Boats in American waters

A Japanese submarine shelled a lighthouse in Canada, too.
At a very isolated settlement, near Uclulet, on the west coast of
Vancouver Island. Some of the sheels whooshed over a nearby Indian
reserve. ("Sheels" ?  *Shells*) No casualties on land, but the
offending Japanese sub was believed sunk three or four days later.
'Serves him right, for drawing attention to himself.  :-)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 17:05:52 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Rohm shot

>     Roehm was indeed a captain in the German Army in WWI. I have no
> details as to his employment, but it is known that he served as an
> officer in WWI with the rank of captain. Yes, he had to have been
> commissioned during the war.

Why?  Because he was of insufficiently elevated circumstances?  That's a
question that I've wondered about.  Were there a lot of people from modest
backgrounds (middleclass, Jews, etc.) as commissioned officers in reserve
formations?

>     I have only seen Roehm's biography in relation to other contexts
> that deal with the "Night of the Long Knives". I have not seen
> anything that deals with Roehm in and of itself, and one would be
> interesting, perhaps rather thin in size, bu interesting.

I'll do a subject and title search of the Cuyahoga County Library system when
I finish here.

> > "Order of the Death's Head".  It refers to his and his friends' recruiting
> > of sexual partners from a highschool.  As someone else pointed out, that
> > raises the question of what the age of consent was in Germany at the time.
> > I suppose it's a valid question.
>
>     Interesting. I hadn't read Hoehne's book, although I have it. I
> have not had the time to access it. I will have to read it. I have
> read several things on Roehm but that is the first reference I have
> encountered that specifically nails Roehm as a pedephile.
>
I consider it a classic.  Anyone who can read that book and claim that the
holocaust is a hoax, would have been euthanized by the nazis as a mental
defective himself.

> > As was Himmler who hated and feared him even more than the
> Wehrmacht leaders.
>
>     Also, so true. Himmler and Roehm were obvious rivals, and it only
> made Himmler that much more desirous of helping Adolf to rid himself
> of his liabilities. Perhaps but only from the standpoint of his
> relationship to Hitler and the fact that Roehm controlled the largest
> armed force (SA) in the Party.

I wonder what things would have been like if Roehm had gained control of the
armed forces.  The standards of the SA were quite low, certainly nothing like
those of the SS.

>
>     Thanks again for the source, and I will read this work.
>
Your welcome.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 17:20:26 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Rohm shot

> I looked it up in Robert Wistrich's book _Who's Who in Nazi Germany_
> and he says that Roehm was wounded three times in WW1 once getting
> half his nose shot off but didn't indicate what his rank was.  It
> said he had been a Captain in the Reichswehr which goes against what
> folks have been saying about him being so much apart from Prussian
> Officer ideal.  To be allowed to remain in the 100,000 man Reichswehr
> he had to have his ducks in a row to some extent.  Its sort of like
> the military today in the US, very competitive.

That's why he had a striking resemblance to Oliver Hardy! :)

Roehm had a distinguished record in the War.  His personal life however, was
not to the liking of the Army.

> Terry Moore writes:
> > >     True, but I have never heard of Roehm molesting children, nor his
> > > having the reputation as such. Someone had posted that he preferred
> > > young males between the ages 18-25 which is right on the money. I am
> > > only curious as to where you got this info.
>
> The Who's Who says nothing about children either.  It further
> mentioned that Hitler personnally arrived with the SS men to arrest
> him but another book I had read indicated that Hitler sort of took
> the weekend off.  Don't remember which one that was.
>
Check out "Order of the Death's Head".

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 17:35:19 -0500
From:    Joe Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: TAC: Italian AT units

        The story of Italian units equipped with the famous German dual
purpose 88mm anti-aircraft/anti-tank gun is almost unknown.  It began
when Italy, after entering World War II with mostly World War I vintage
artillery, asked Germany for weapons and ammunition.  As a result, two
battalions of 88mm Flak guns were formed in Florence in September 1940.
These two units were strictly intended for an AA role since the 88's
AT role had not been fully developed at that time.  The 18th Battalion
was sent to North Africa in October, and the 29th followed in December.
(A third battalion was also formed and later sent to Tripoli where it
remained.)

        The guns of the 18th were truck-towed, which helped keep its
losses to no more than one battery during the Italian retreat to El
Agheila caused by the British offensive, "Operation Crusader."  In
January 1942, as part of the general Italian army reorganization in
Africa, the 18th was redesignated the 5th Anti-Aircraft/Anti-Tank
Battalion.  It spent some time assigned to the Brescia Infantry
Division before being transferred to the Ariete Armored Division.

        The first major anti-tank engagement for the 5th Battalion
occurred during the 1942 summer battle for Tobruk, called "Operation
Venezia" by the Italians and the "Battle of Gazala" by the British.
On May 29, the Italian 88 batteries were deployed as part of an
anti-tank screen to protect the rear area and lines of communications
for Ariete and the Afrika Korps.  That afternoon, and again on the
morning of the 30th, the British 2nd and 22nd Armored Brigades,
without prior artillery preparation, made gallant attacks against
the Italian anti-tank screen.  Both brigades suffered heavy losses,
the 2nd breaking off with only 30 tanks remaining out of a starting
compliment of 150.  The 5th Battalion had held firm and lost 49 men
and five of its guns after firing some 1,748 rounds.

        This was followed by a combined armored/infantry attack against
the Italian line on June 4 and 5.  This time the British did fire a
preparatory barrage, but it fell short of the defenders' positions
rather than within it.  Elements of the 15th Panzer Division moved to
support Ariete's left, and there helped defeat the assault of the
British 2nd Highland Light Infantry after the 156 tanks of the 22nd
Armored Brigade were thrown back by the AT line leaving much of its
armor burning on the field.  (During this fight, the remnant of the
British 2nd Armored Brigade received several contradictory orders and
effectively did nothing.)

        These actions, along with the defeat German units inflicted
on the attack of the 32nd Tank Brigade to the northwest, overcame
the British armor superiority, and Rommel was again able to gain the
initiative and advance toward Tobruk.

        Interestingly enough, both the "British Official History"
and historian Michael Carver, in his otherwise well researched book,
"Tobruk", simply refer to these actions as an attempt by the Commonwealth
tankers "to pierce the screen which lay west of them, thought to be
Rommel's rearguard."

        The fact is, this combat was part of what was an essentially
Italian defense -- a fact not noted in most Allied histories.  In other
works, *German* Flak units are often credited with supporting Ariete's
defense.  One might conclude that these oversights were an intentional
attempt to denigrate Italy's efforts in the desert war.
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
Willard and me spent all day shining up this here barrel...
We take it out in the rain, it's gonna rust up on us...

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 17:44:25 -0500
From:    Joe Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: Japanese sub attacks on US mainland

This is what I was able to find from Bill Thacker's 50YA postings
(boy, do I miss those!)

Monday, 22 June, 1942:
A Japanese submarine shells Fort Stevens, Oregon.  No serious damage
is inflicted.

Friday, 28 August, 1942:
A seaplane from the Japanese submarine I-25 drops incendiary bombs on a
forested region of the state of Oregon.

Wednesday, 9 September, 1942:
A Japanese submarine-based float plane drops bombs near Brookings, Oregon,
starting a small fire.
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
I'll give you fifty bucks if you'll carry this 50 caliber machine gun.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 11:55:10 EST
From:    Archie Smith <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: Re: Einsatz. document

Interesting response from MTLINDEM.  I am sure if one could dig around in
the archieves of the US, one would find documents detailing how to make the
atomic weapons used on Japan more efficient.  The use of air bursts to
maximize destruction was no accident.

I once wrote an Annex in an operations plan directing the effective handling
of US battlefield casualties.  Dispostion was to be a very sterile bureaucratic
operation, designed to limit the impact to combatants and non-combatants alike,
with "proper" solemnity.  Emotions, no; efficiency, yes.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 16:59:00 PST
From:    Stephen Fox <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: More Mines in Flanders

Someone (Steve Baldwin) asked for more about Flanders, so here goes.

There are many places related to WWI to visit in Flanders (including the
portions of Belgium and Picardy that are ethnically Flemish).  Most of
them are cemeteries, but there are many with trenches, museums, etc.
Certainly a visit to Ieper (Yypres) would be high on your list.  The city
was virtually destroyed in the war, and one of the more remarkable re-
contructions is the Cloth Hall.  Interesting sidelight: a prewar photo-
grapher by the name of Antony had done such a comprehensive job of photo-
graphing the city and environs, that when the money was available for re-
construction the architects relied heavily on his photos to reproduce
the buildings.  They also had some blueprints.  There is a good museum
of the war in Ieper as well, and a MUST-SEE is the Menin gate in the old
city wall.  Therein are carved the names of roughly 53,000 (about the same
number as American dead in Vietnam) Commonwealth soldiers who had simply
disappeared!  It's an impressive reminder of the way people got ground up
in that war, and this is by no means the only tribute to the war's "dis-
appeared."

One of my favorite cemeteries is the German one (you have to work at finding
the German cemeteries in Flanders, just as you do at Normandy) at Langemarck.
Its dark, brooding simplicity is quite a contrast with the flowery Commonwaelth
cemeteries.  Don't miss this one.

You should also visit the French town of Arras, and be sure to see the unique
market square.  Outside is another impressive cemetery and battlefield (trenches,
etc.) where many Canadian troops died.  They planted a tree for each, and it is
a large woods today.  This is also a MUST-SEE.

While visiting the alleged spot where Hitler won his Iron Cross 2d Class, my
brother-in-law spoke alone at some length with the farmer who owns the
property.  This is the same place I wrote about earlier that has the well-
preserved mineshaft.  Seems the farmer told Rony that there are many undis-
closed ammo dumps that the Belgian government knows about but is fearful
of revealing lest it cause a public panic.  When farmers unearth the shells
they have been told by the gov't to put them alongside the road where the
gov't will pick them up.  Do you think the farmers do this?  Nope, they're
not crazy, said the farmer.  They rebury them!  Because of the frequency of
acidental explosions (lightning strikes and scared rabbits, etc.) the Belgian
gov't finally authorized overflights and infared photography to locate the
stuff.  What the pictures showed is why they kept it hush-hush, according to
the farmer: dumps under farms, towns, etc.  To remove the stuff would require
lots of relocation.  So, they have done nothing.  (This story, by the way, is
20 years old.)

Well, you get the picture.  If I can be of more help, say so.

        Steve

********************************************
*       Steve Fox                          *
*       History Department                 *
*       Humboldt State University          *
*       Arcata, CA  95521                  *
*       (707) 826-4788                     *
*       FAX: (707) 826-4496                *
*       [email-masked]              *
********************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 16:27:54 -0800
From:    "Jackson, Christopher R. UC Davis" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Rohm shot

Wistrich's book is usually pretty reliable, though for some of the more
obscure Nazis you should consult the Encyclopedia of the Third Reich,
published by MacMillan (it's a translation of the German "Das Grosse
Lexikon des Dritten Reiches.").
The Encyclopedia notes that Roehm made it to captain, but after the war
he joined the Epp Freikorps, and helped put down the Munich Republic in
1919.  He met Hitler in 1919 and joined the German Workers' Party (the
party that would later become the NSDAP).  He was given 15 months'
probabtion after the Beer Hall Putsch, and thereafter he aand Hitler
developed differences and split up; Roehm retired from political life.
He went to Bolivia to act as a military advisor there.
In the autumn of 1930 Hitler summoned Roehm back, and made him chief of
staff of the SA after the resignation of Ernst Pfeffer vno Salomon.  He
was appointed Reich Minister without portfolio in December 1933, but his
constatn rantings about a "Second Revolution" and the threat he posed to
the army resulted in his arrest and execution.

No mention about little boys in the encyclopedia, though.

Christopher R. Jackson, UC Davis

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 18:01:33 -0800
From:    "Office TH325, Extension 3566" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: Re: Einsatz. document

Archie Smith wrote:

>Interesting response from MTLINDEM.  I am sure if one could dig around in
>the archieves of the US, one would find documents detailing how to make the
>atomic weapons used on Japan more efficient.  The use of air bursts to
>maximize destruction was no accident.

I just finished reading a biography of John Von Neumann that spent some
time describing how he used his understanding of explosions to determine the
best altitude for maximum destruction.

John Riegsecker

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 22:36:18 -0500
From:    Stan Koper <[email-masked]>
Subject: TAC: 106th Division in the Ardennes

>
> Hello, Stan!
>
> Thanks for your reply. Will try to answer your question.
>
> > Another question to consider:  why did units of the 106th
> > Division abandon prepared positions?  Or did they?
>
>     The 106th Division was not combat proven. It was a green outfit
> that was placed in a "quiet" sector and the idea was to involve them
> in combat gradually. They were completely overwhelmed at St.Vith, and
> if they left prepared positions it was because they had no battle
> experience and given the emotional climate at the time in the Bulge,
> they felt justified.

I understand that the troops themselves were "green", but I
don't know about the officers.  Looking at _Decision at St.
Vith_, the 106th had three regiments facing the German 18th
Volksgrenadier Division, the 422nd (Colonel Descheneaux) near
Schlausenbach, the 423rd (Colonel Cavender), near Bliealf, and
the 424th (Colonel Reid).

Whiting, describing the events on the morning of December 18,
1944, indicates that Colonel Cavender received a message from
division headquarters stating that there was a "Panzer regtl. CT
[?] on Elmerscheid-Sch nberg-St.Vith Rd..."  The message (to
Cavender) went on: "Our mission is to destroy by fire from
dug-in positions S of Sch nberg-St.Vith.  Am, food and water
will be dropped.  When mission accomplished, move to area
St.Vith-Wallerode-Weppler.  Organize and move to W."

Cavender shared the message with Descheneaux and "The two
colonels decided to move off at 10:00 A.M...Abandoning their
defensive positions at last, they were going to attack to their
rear, force the Sch nberg-St.Vith road, and with a bit of luck
break through to St.Vith itself.  It was a bold plan, more
especially as they did not know the terrain, had little room to
              ^^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^^^  ^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^^ ^^
maneuver, and lacked a joint commander for the six battalions of
^^^^^^^^      ^^^^^^ ^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^
infantry and one of artillery involved.  But being green troops,
                                             ^^^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^^
these considerations did not seem to enter their heads."

Whiting goes on to quote from several participants to the effect
that they felt as though they were just wandering around out
there, in the cold, hungry, with little idea of where they were
going or what was ahead (or behind, or to either side), and "by
later afternoon, the 422nd was lost."

The 423rd ran into Germans, and their advance "bogged down."

>   In the
> > Korean War, it seems clear that the "rapid withdrawal" in the
> > face of overwhelming numbers of Chinese troops was sound tactics,
> > even if it looked suspiciously like a "rout".  But I don't know
> > if it was in _Decision at St. Vith_, or _Death of a Division_,
> > but the impression I had was that the 106th was just wandering
> > around out there.
>
>     Sounds like the former book.

Yep.
>
>
>     Please let me know if you received this message. I would
> appreciate it very much. Also, please comment.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Terry
>
> Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
> P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
> fax 806-371-5370
>
Other points:

     Whiting puts the total of men who surrendered from the
106th at 10,000 (someone had mentioned 6,000).
     Alan Jones' son, Alan Jones Jr., was a Lieutenant with the
423rd Battalion, and was captured with the rest.
     Colonel Descheneaux had no combat experience, but
Colonel Cavender did (WWI).

One thing worth remembering about the structure of the army in
WWII was that it had a strong caste system, and the expression
"rank has its privileges" had *real* meaning.  There was a great
deal of resentment toward officers and their privileges on the
part of many enlisted men, particularly the better educated
draftees and enlistees that started coming in in 1941.  Thus,
when the Germans were forming up the captured soldiers to march
them to the rear, "...an unshaven infantryman...[said]...'I've
got a message for you, Colonel'...[and]...sticking out his
tongue, the GI gave his former commander a Bronx cheer."

James Jones' _From Here to Eternity_ gives a good account of the
pre-war situation, but I think he's too optimistic in the end,
when he suggests that the rapid expansion of the army after
Pearl Harbor would bring a halt to the system.  But that's
another topic!

Stan Koper
[email-masked]

      This message brought to you by uqwk 1.7 and Yarn 0.57

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 21:00:08 -0600
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Attempt to contact B-25 crew

In message <[email-masked]> World War II Discussion List
writes:
> I realize this is a long shot, but I am trying to contact anyone who was
> a crew member on a B-25 during the war.
>
> Can anyone help me?  Please respond privately.

How many would you like?  :-)

Do you want online people or USnail/phone type contacts?

--
Robert J. Granvin                                             [email-masked]
University of Minnesota, School of Statistics
         "I'm my father?  I'm my mother?  I'm chipped beef on toast?"

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 22:37:44 EST
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor,
         Marist Coll" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: Japanese sub attacks on US mainland

>
> Friday, 28 August, 1942:
> A seaplane from the Japanese submarine I-25 drops incendiary bombs on a
> forested region of the state of Oregon.
> Joe Barone
> [email-masked]
> I'll give you fifty bucks if you'll carry this 50 caliber machine gun.

It was in response to the danger of such attacks and the loss of wood as
war material that the US Forest Service created the Smokey Bear
anti-forest fire
campaign. Smokey is 50 this year! Is there any US citizen on this list
who can not complete this phrase: "Remember only you....."

Jonah Triebwasser
Adjunct Instructor
Marist College
Dyson Building (Adult Education)
Poughkeepsie, New York12601
Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
E-Mail: [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 22:51:51 -0600
From:    Jon Stevens <[email-masked]>
Subject: Triv: re: Steiner

This is worth about a Rouble but here is some trivia for the Steiner
discussion:

It has been a couple of years since I read _The Last 100 Days_
but I think it is reported in there that the last message sent from -the
bunker- was, 'where is Wenck, where is Steiner'

by the way, the game at the Byrd ftp site was quite enjoyable.  Any more
out there?

Jon Stevens e-mail [email-masked]

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 3 Mar 1994 to 4 Mar 1994
***********************************************