Subject: WWII-L Digest - 2 Mar 1994 to 3 Mar 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 00:00:52 -0500

There are 59 messages totalling 1927 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. U boats
  2. Addr: RE: Monty (2)
  3. POL(?) South American involvement in WWII (2)
  4. INF: Italian, German troops in N. Africa
  5. GEN: Re: Einsatz. document (2)
  6. INF: Mines in Flanders
  7. QUEST: FDR/Advance Knowledge of PH (7)
  8. Explosives (2)
  9. TRV: Education... (4)
 10. U-Boats (2)
 11. INF: USAAF 3 MAR 44
 12. GAME: German Eagle Vs. Russian Bear .. 1 (4)
 13. TAC: Re: Ardennes
 14. Ardennes (2)
 15. Off Limits Topics (8)
 16. GAME: RUSFront
 17. GAME: Any good FTP sites?
 18. [email-masked] (3)
 19. The 106th, the Ardennes, and a "friend" of von Manteuffel
 20. GAME: War in Russia (PC)
 21. The 106th, the Ardennes, and a friend of von
 22. Ben Olds flamed over Polesti
 23. The 106th, the Ardennes, and a "friend" of von Manteuff (2)
 24. Offline Mail Readers, HELP! :)
 25. Gen. Steiner: Defence of Berlin (3)
 26. QUEST: Sinking of the Indianapolis (2)
 27. Best Aredennes book (?)
 28. GEN: Concentration camps

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 21:22:44 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: U boats

For details about the stumble-bum Nazi agents who were landed (and
caught very quickly), read: THEY CAME TO BLOW UP AMERICA.
Incidentally, it was not "written by the FBI".

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 21:24:07 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Addr: RE: Monty

No, no. "He was willing to fight the war until the last American"
was said by *George Patton* !

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 21:26:08 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Addr: RE: Monty

*About* George Patton!
:-)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 21:54:56 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: POL(?) South American involvement in WWII

Mexico "joined" the Allies, in 1942, as I recall.
        However, their sole fighting contribution was to send two
squadrons of Mustang fighter planes to the South Pacific. How they
performed, I have no idea.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 21:58:13 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: POL(?) South American involvement in WWII

When news of Brazil joining the Allies was told to Hitler, he is said to
have roared with laughter, and hooted: "There will be Brazillian trooops
fighting me, when cobra's smoke pipes!"
        Sure enough, when the Brazillian troops landed in Italy, their
shoulder-flash had the design of a cobra smoking a pipe.
        Ever after, the Brazillians called themselves __ COBRAS FUMAS!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 22:05:26 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: Italian, German troops in N. Africa

The Italian Navy was generally first-class.
Particularly, their submarines and light coastal forces.
        Italian sub,arines were considered a particularly tough nut by
British aircraft. German subs always dived at sight of an enemy plane,
even in the med, where shallow water made a dave usually fatal.
On the other hand, Italian subs had a policy of always staying on the
surface to fight it out with attacking aircraft. The outcome was 50/50.
Brave men.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 01:28:48 CST
From:    Sly <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN: Re: Einsatz. document

Chuck Weckesser <[email-masked]> wrote:

>I have just come across what is known as a "primary" source document. This
>document chronicles how chillingly the German einsatzgruppen units murdered
>Jews and, typically German, a "request" to make their killing more
>efficient.  I shall quote the entire document, which is not that long. *ALL*
>comments would be appreciated as to your reaction reading something like this:

        Thanks.  Nice to know that as a German, I am the typical type
of efficient murderer.

*******************************************************************************
*       "Es gibt nicht viel Wissen, das Macht verschafft, aber es gibt viel   *
* Wissen, das nur durch Macht verschafft wird."  -Bertolt Brecht              *
********************Sly - [email-masked]*************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 08:14:31 GMT
From:    Stephen Baldwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: Mines in Flanders

Hi Steve!
Thanks for your contributions...

>       Can share lots more about the problem of unexploded shells in this
>       region of Belgium if you are interested.  This "problem," however,
>       is dwarfed by the situation existing in the Verdun region of France
>       that has been discussed recently.
as far as I am concerned, keep talking. This is holding my attention
nicely!

steve baldwin
[email-masked]

ps - ever been to Verdun?
I'm hoping to get to Flanders and Verdun eventually...

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 06:25:33 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: Re: Einsatz. document

>
> Chuck Weckesser <[email-masked]> wrote:
>
>
> >I have just come across what is known as a "primary" source document. This
> >document chronicles how chillingly the German einsatzgruppen units murdered
> >Jews and, typically German, a "request" to make their killing more
> >efficient.  I shall quote the entire document, which is not that long. *ALL*
> >comments would be appreciated as to your reaction reading something like this:
>
>         Thanks.  Nice to know that as a German, I am the typical type
> of efficient murderer.
>

When I first read Chuck's posting I considered the "typically" to be in
reference to German efficiency, not German murder.

One of the reasons the Holocaust is officially "off-charter" (and also a
reason it's un-officially tolerated) is that the subject has such fierce
emotions attached to it. While we are able to discuss the events in a
rational manner we can continue the topic hear. When it turns into racial
characterization (or when ANY thread does so) it stops.

The posting falls under the category of "gentle reminder", with the other
end of the spectrum being "utter annihilation". What you do in private
e-mail is your business, what you do on the list is mine.

'Nuff said,
Larry J

[email-masked]; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 08:11:38 EST
From:    Chuck Weckesser <[email-masked]>
Subject: QUEST: FDR/Advance Knowledge of PH

I am primarily interested in the European theater and thus know only the
"basics" regarding the Pacific theater. I have no doubt that my question has
already been asked long before I arrived, but I will ask other people for their
opinions nonetheless:

Did FDR deliberately sacrifice our boys at Pearl Harbor in order to defeat all
remanants of isolationism at home and enter the War. I ask because the American
people, in their fury, wanted the Japs punished, and quickly. But FDR quickly
adopted a "Europe first" policy that really did not make sense.

Meanwhile, Japan's "Greater Southeast Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere" or whatever the
hell they called it continued to grow unmolested.

Remember, if I recall correctly, our best ships were ordered put to sea just
days before Pearl Harbor and thus, were spared.

I think it's one of those questions that we will discover the answer to in about
50 years.

Regards,

Chuck

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 07:16:21 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Explosives

Hello, Christopher!

Here at the Amarillo Pantex plant, operations were begun last year,
November, 1993, to explode old warheads left over from WWII. The
Pantex plant here was a former ammunition plant that was converted to
nuclear weapons assembly in the 1950's.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 06:12:23 -0600
From:    Cheryl Bryant <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRV: Education...

On Thu, 3 Mar 1994, Emmanuel Gustin wrote:

> Today the results of a study on public knowledge about WWII in Belgium
> were published. Secondary school students were asked several questions
> about WWII. Only 58% happened to know who was in power in Germany in 1944.
> Even less could give the name of a concentration camp...
>
> Emmanuel Gustin

Mr. Gustin,
        These statistics are frightening.  Having been educated in both
American and German schools I would be interested to know what the stats
are for these countries.  I know that the Germans would score higher than
the Americans.
        Does anyone out there on this list happen to know of similar
studies in the United States and/or Germany?

C.K. Bryant
************************************************
"The Riskier the road, the greater the profit."
        The 62nd Rule of Acquisition

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 08:59:34 EST
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: U-Boats

> Also they pointed out there weren't enough USN ships to provide escort, so
> why bother?  Of course convoys were instituted eventually and proved
> effective.

Churchill wrote:

   The size of the sea is so vast that the difference between the size
of a convoy and the size of a single ship shrinks in comparsion almost to
insignificance. There was in fact very nearly as good a chance of a convoy
of forty ships in close order slipping unpercieved between the patrolling
U-Boats as there was for a single ship; and each time this happened,
forty ships escaped instead of one

Churchill, The World Crisis

Ron Babuka

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 08:47:43 -0600
From:    John Lundstrom <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: QUEST: FDR/Advance Knowledge of PH

The question of Pearl Harbor is one that generates more controversy than
understanding, but I'd like to offer my opinion:
        1) No one in the US knew Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked; the
blow was expected in the Far East; Pearl was considered relatively safe
because everyone greatly underestimated the power of the Japanese Navy,
especially their carriers
        2) Adm Kimmel hoped for a quick fleet action with the Japanese by
luring them out to battle near Wake (see Edward Miller's superb book War
Plan Orange for a superb analysis of Kimmel's battle plan).
        3) The absence of the carriers Enterprise and Lexington from Pearl
on 7 December 1941 were entirely fortuitous; their mission to deliver
aircraft to Wake and Midway were to facilitate Kimmel's battle plan, among
other things.
        4) The principal defect in US strategy was that everyone from FDR on
down refused to take the Japanese seriously and understand the real nature
of their threat in the Pacific.
                John Lundstrom [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 09:39:08 EST
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: QUEST: FDR/Advance Knowledge of PH

Chuck I would suggest you read Gordon Pranges "At Dawn we Slept" for
more insight into tthe Pearl Harbor raids.  Prange basically lays
fault on a large number of oversights and errors from the President,
to the Fourteenth Naval District, to the Hawaiian Department.

You are correct in that some our the most important ships used later
in the war were out to sea but you have to remember that in 1941 naval
thinking, the carrier still was secondary to the battlewagon.  In 1941
times, if FDR had wanted to pull out his most important ships he might
well have pulled out the battleships INSTEAD of the carriers (lucky he
didn't because those ships would not have been refloatable if caught
out at sea and then hit).  I can't imagine that FDR would want to sacrifice
the most important weapon (the fleet) in order to justify a declaration of war.

There are also claims that Churchill knew of the attack and did not say
anything in order to draw the US into the war.  I find this hard to believe
since the UK was cannibalizing its Pacific Fleet and its resources in
the east for its war against Germany.  A stong US fleet was the only thing
that many felt stopped the Japanese from marching into the weakened UK's
territories.   I can't imagine that Churchill
would want to be drawn into fighting in the east and face the fact that
America would need to reallocate resources towards rebuilding a Pacific
Fleet and towards fighting the Japanese.

Ron Babuka

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 16:02:09 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: QUEST: FDR/Advance Knowledge of PH

On Thu, 3 Mar 1994, Chuck Weckesser wrote:

> Did FDR deliberately sacrifice our boys at Pearl Harbor in order to defeat all
> remanants of isolationism at home and enter the War.

Now this topic is really 'off-limits', but we will be allowed to discuss
it as long as we stay polite :-).

Probably the discussion is this will never end, but the mainstream answer
is: no. An attack on Pearl Harbour was not expected, and this despite the
numerous warnings before the war.  PH was considered by many to be well
defended and far away from the really dangerous areas; that's why the
local commanders neglected to take defensive measures, even when a 'war
warning' was issued by the USN. The Japanese attack and the succes of it
was a real surprise. In fact, it was more or less a surprise to the
Japanese too; they only did it because Yamamoto forcefully insisted ---
and they expected to lose half their carrier fleet in it.

One could argue that the FDR administration actively sought war with
Japan, by its harshness in negotations. The reality is that there was
nothing to negotiate: Japan wanted an empire in the Pacific, the US was
not going to allow that. Compromise impossible. The timing for creating a
conflict was really bad, however.

> I ask because the American
> people, in their fury, wanted the Japs punished, and quickly. But FDR quickly
> adopted a "Europe first" policy that really did not make sense.

On could defend the 'Europe first' policy on several grounds. To begin
with, Germany was a really dangerous enemy and Japan was not.  Despite its
aggressiveness and temporary succes, Japan was in fact a third-world
country with meagre industrial resources, a weak economy, and
technologically backward. The US could afford to wait with an attack on
Japan. And what's more, the US would have to wait anyway, until the
building program for the USN delivered the Essex-class carriers, the new
aircraft, and the other tools that made victory a certainity. Anyway, in
1942 the US did not yet have the army to fight one war, and certainly not
two.

> Meanwhile, Japan's "Greater Southeast Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere" or whatever the
> hell they called it continued to grow unmolested.

Not really. The growth of the Japanese 'Co-Prosperity Sphere' was
explosive, a series of quick successes about which nothing could really be
done --- the men and equipment were simply not there. After the first load
of Japanese victories the US concentrated on keeping the connections with
Australia open, with considerable succes.

> Remember, if I recall correctly, our best ships were ordered put to sea just
> days before Pearl Harbor and thus, were spared.

Yes, the carriers of the Pacific fleet were on sea. I wonder: Was it
really acknowledged by the USN in Dec. 1941 that these were the most
important ships? It always has been considered a coincidence. One was
simply ferrying aircraft, another was on excercise, I think.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 10:22:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USAAF 3 MAR 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
FRIDAY, 3 MARCH 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  Hurricane, Hawker (RAF)
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  Spitfire, Vickers Supermarine

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): In the Aleutian Islands, 9 B-24s take off from
Shemya Island to search for enemy shipping, but return due to heavy icing and
squalls; 6 P-40s fly a search mission between Shemya and halfway to Attu
Island; and HQ XI Bomber Command moves from Adak Island to Shemya Island.

  ZONE OF INTERIOR: President Franklin D Roosevelt announces that the Italian
Fleet will be divided equally among the US, UK and the USSR.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 22 B-25s, some supported by Royal
Air Force (RAF) Spitfires and Hurricanes, bomb the Ft White area; 10 B-25s
and 4 P-51s pound airfields at Katha, Mawlu and Shwebo; 12 B-25s and 8 P-51s
hit railroad targets and a warehouse at Kyaikthin and Kyunhla; 14 B-24s
covered by 22 P-40s hit airfields at Lashio, Hsenwi and Loiwing; 70+ P-40s,
A-36s, P-51s, and B-25s hit fuel storage, supply areas, roads, and other
targets over widespread areas of Burma, including Shingban, Myitkyina,
Zigyun, Mogaung, Manywet, and Washawng; 6 P-38s attack the Okshitpin bridge
but the target is not damaged.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): P-40s damage a coal grading building at
Campha Port, French Indochina.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 246: 555 B-17s and 193
B-24s are dispatched to industrial areas and aviation industry plants at
Berlin, Erkner and Oranienburg but deteriorating weather and dense contrails
force the formations to abort or seek targets of opportunity, i.e.:
  1. 9 of 555 B-17s are lost, 61 hit Wilhelmshaven and 14 hit targets of
opportunity; casualties are 2 KIA, 3 WIA and 83 MIA.
  3. 2 of 193 B-24s are lost and only 4 hit targets of opportunity;
casualties are 3 KIA, 8 WIA and 20 MIA.
  The bombers claim 3-1-1 Luftwaffe aircraft. Escort is provided by 89 P-38s,
484 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s and 130 Eighth and Ninth Air Force
P-51s; claim and loses are:
  1. 1 P-38 is lost and 1 damaged; 1 pilot is MIA.
  2. 1 P-47 is damaged beyond repair and 13 damaged; 1 pilot is WIA.
  3. P-51s claim 8-1-3 Luftwaffe aircraft; 6 P-51s are lost; 5 pilots are MIA.
  During a CARPETBAGGER mission on the night of 3/4 Mar, 2 B-24s are lost.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, 218 B-26s bomb airfields
at Laon/Couvron, Beauvais/Tille, Rosieres-en-Santerre, Roye/Amy and
Montdidier, and military installations at Juvincourt-et-Damary and
Berneval-le-Grand.
  Moves in England: HQ 434th Troop Carrier Group and 71st, 72d, 73d and 74th
Troop Carrier Squadrons from Fulbeck to Aldermaston with C-47s; HQ 436th
Troop Carrier Group and 80th, 81st and 82d Troop Carrier Squadrons from
Bottesford to Membury with C-47s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Around 200 B-17s and B-24s,
with 50+ P-47s as escort, hit targets in Italy; the B-17s hit the Rome,
Littorio and Tiburtina marshalling yards; the B-24s hit Canino landing ground
and Viterbo and Fabrica di Roma air depots; 80+ B-24s and 100+ P-38s abort
because of bad weather.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s bomb Rome/Ostiense
and railroad stations at San Benedetto de Marsi; weather cancels light and
other medium bomber operations; P-40s hit gun positions in the N Anzio
beachhead area while A-36s attack the train and tented area between Magliano
Romano and Rome; other P-40s fly patrol over the Anzio beachhead area.
  64th Fighter Squadron, 57th Fighter Group, moves from Amendola to Cercola,
Italy with P-40s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-24s out of Makin Island bomb
Ponape Island. B-25s from Tarawa Atoll, Gilbert Islands, hit Maloelap Atoll.
This date marks the beginning of Operation FORAGER, the capture of the S
Marianas Islands (Saipan, Tinian, and Guam Islands) for bases for B-29
strikes against Japan. Seventh Air Force aircraft maintain neutralization
strikes against airfields in the Caroline Islands and continue hitting Wake
Island and the bypassed Marshall Islands.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain island,
P-40s and US Navy (USN) fighters cover a USN dive bomber strike on Rabaul and
Simpson Harbor; 24 B-25s follow with an attack on Rabaul, which later in the
day is bombed by 20 B-24s. 5 P-38s bomb radar installations at Cape Saint
George on New Ireland Island, Admiralty Islands, while 10 bomb Buka Airfield,
Buka Island, Solomon Islands. P-39s hit targets of opportunity on the E part
of Shortland Island, Solomon Islands and the W part of Buka Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 30+ B-24s hit
the Hansa Bay and Alexishafen areas while 20 P-39s attack Madang and Bogadjim
and 22 A-20s pound Erima. 14 A-20s and B-25s hit enemy positions on Los
Negros Island.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 09:36:28 -0600
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: GAME: German Eagle Vs. Russian Bear .. 1

Lou writes:
> OK, sports fans, get right over to your nearest university/
>   research library.  The revised edition of my playable AND
>   historical game is available on microfiche (only) for your
>   perusal on the U.S. Govt.-sponsored Educational Resources
>   Information Center (ERIC) collection.

Thanks for the opening, Lou.  :-)

Speaking of games, did anyone download that rusfront.zip game from
byrd?  I tried to but it would not unzip properly.  I tried two
different versions of PKUNZIP with no luck.  Does byrd have the
correct version that I can use and if so where is it located?

Dazed and Confused, Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 10:41:18 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRV: Education...

> Received: from MAILQUEUE by PCAD (Mercury 1.11); Thu, 3 Mar 94 7:24:06 GMT-6
> Return-path: <@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU:[email-masked]>
> Received: from UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu by PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU (Mercury 1.11);
>     Thu, 3 Mar 94 7:24:04 GMT-6
> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU by UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2)
>    with BSMTP id 5839; Thu, 03 Mar 94 08:20:28 EST
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>  UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2777; Thu,
>  3 Mar 1994 08:20:27 -0500

Hello, Cheryl and Emmanuel!

Just a thought to add to your comment.
> Mr. Gustin,
>         These statistics are frightening.

    I absolutely agree. It is just indicative of the flaws occurring
in educational systems both here and abroad.

Having been educated in both
> American and German schools I would be interested to know what the stats
> are for these countries.  I know that the Germans would score higher than
> the Americans.

    I agree with that. I would think that Americans would come out on
the short end of any survey dealing with any intellectual subject
matter.

>         Does anyone out there on this list happen to know of similar
> studies in the United States and/or Germany?

    Wish I did, but you hear of teachers distributing surveys to
students to test their knowledge, and the results, as far as I have
seen and know of personally, show a dismal and disgraceful lack of
any knowledge dealing with the 1940's.

    Thanks, Cheryl.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 10:59:42 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: QUEST: FDR/Advance Knowledge of PH

> Received: from MAILQUEUE by PCAD (Mercury 1.11); Thu, 3 Mar 94 7:27:55 GMT-6
> Return-path: <@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU:[email-masked]>
> Received: from UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu by PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU (Mercury 1.11);
>     Thu, 3 Mar 94 7:27:50 GMT-6
> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU by UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2)
>    with BSMTP id 2169; Thu, 03 Mar 94 08:23:23 EST
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>  UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2356; Thu,
>  3 Mar 1994 08:14:00 -0500

Hello, Chuck!

Will try to answer your questions.

> Did FDR deliberately sacrifice our boys at Pearl Harbor in order to defeat all
> remanants of isolationism at home and enter the War. I ask because the American
> people, in their fury, wanted the Japs punished, and quickly. But FDR quickly
> adopted a "Europe first" policy that really did not make sense.

    The answer to that is no. A book published in the 60's, I think,
took the approach, that FDR deliberately allowed PH to be bombed to
get us into the war. The book was called "Back Door to Pearl Harbor"
by Feis. It is tempting to take that approach, but according to
Gordon Prange's excellent book dealing with that subject and others,
BTW, there is no evidence which remotely suggests that FDR
deliberately sacrificed PH to get us into the war. Toland has gone on
record stating that FDR did have prior knowledge that it would be
bombed, as did General Marshall, but, as you know, many many things
occurred to prevent PH from being warned itself. Too many things
happened over too long a period to go into real detail on this. The
upshot was, we knew, that is to say, FDR, General Marshall, Admiral
Stark, etc., that PH would be bombed. The problem was discerning and
finding out precisely when and on what date.

The same was true on PH itself. PH was relying heavily on
communications from Washington that were never reliable, and the info
extant at the time was faulty in itself. By the time Washington could
even let PH know when it was to be bombed, it was too late to prevent
the attack, in fact, the telegram announcing the impending raid
arrived after the attack was already completed.

    The "Europe-first" policy was already decided upon well before
commencement of hostilities. In a war plan draft, that was eventually
accepted in 1940, had already designated Germany as the more serious
enemy and thus to be dealt with first. Admiral King wanted Japan
taken on first, because of his responsibility as CNO, and the fact
that the war against Japan would be primarily a naval war with ground
force support.

    Please read Albert C. Wedemeyer's book "A Soldier Reports". He
was instrumental in drawing up the scenarios involving the US in a
major war by 1940-1941. The plan had a name, but it slips my mind.
But, no, the decision to deal with Germany first had nothing to do
with PH being sacrificed to get us into war.

> Meanwhile, Japan's "Greater Southeast Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere" or whatever the
> hell they called it continued to grow unmolested.

    Up until 4 Jun 1942 with the advent of Midway. There and then it
was stopped and reversed beginning with the invasion of Guadalcanal
shortly after the battle of Midway. Midway was the turning point.
Coral Sea before that in May checked the Japs, but Midway saw the
beginning of the end for the Japs and their East Asia Co-Prosperity
Sphere.

> Remember, if I recall correctly, our best ships were ordered put to sea just
> days before Pearl Harbor and thus, were spared.

    No. The carriers had already taken to sea on maneuvers that had
already been scheduled. It had nothing to do with the impending
attack. They were, of course, spared, but not for the reasons your
statement implies.

    Please let me know if you have received this.

    Thanks.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 11:13:46 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TAC: Re: Ardennes

> Received: from MAILQUEUE by PCAD (Mercury 1.11); Tue, 1 Mar 94 12:03:55 GMT-6
> Return-path: <@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU:[email-masked]>
> Received: from UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu by PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU (Mercury 1.11);
>     Tue, 1 Mar 94 12:03:53 GMT-6
> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU by UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2)
>    with BSMTP id 1026; Tue, 01 Mar 94 13:00:05 EST
> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@UBVM) by
>  UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9067; Tue,
>  1 Mar 1994 11:00:50 -0500

Hello, Stan!

Thanks for your reply. Will try to answer your question.

> Another question to consider:  why did units of the 106th
> Division abandon prepared positions?  Or did they?

    The 106th Division was not combat proven. It was a green outfit
that was placed in a "quiet" sector and the idea was to involve them
in combat gradually. They were completely overwhelmed at St.Vith, and
if they left prepared positions it was because they had no battle
experience and given the emotional climate at the time in the Bulge,
they felt justified.

  In the
> Korean War, it seems clear that the "rapid withdrawal" in the
> face of overwhelming numbers of Chinese troops was sound tactics,
> even if it looked suspiciously like a "rout".  But I don't know
> if it was in _Decision at St. Vith_, or _Death of a Division_,
> but the impression I had was that the 106th was just wandering
> around out there.

    Sounds like the former book.

    Please let me know if you received this message. I would
appreciate it very much. Also, please comment.

Thanks.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 11:32:23 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Ardennes

Hello, Steve!

There was a mass surrender at St. Vith of the 106th Division led by
General Bruce Clark. The number was around 6000. They were simply
overwhelmed, and there wasn't much else to do. I think it was the
largest surrender since Bataan in WWII.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 12:38:39 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: QUEST: FDR/Advance Knowledge of PH

I personally know two researchers who are going through 30,000+ pages of
testimony and records regarding the Pearl Harbor debacle. After ten years
they still have no credible evidence that Roosevelt had foreknowledge of
the attack. (I will notify the list when they are ready to publish.)

The fundamental problem with Roosevelt "setting us up" for the attack is
that this was probably the worst possible way to get the U.S. involved
in the European war. I first started considering this question in 1964
and have read all the "expose" books I could find and none of them are
very satisfactory at makin even a thin case in the matter.  This is one
of the reasons I put this subject in the intro as "unwelcome". I've stretched
the rules to allow Holocaust discussion since "Schindler's List" has made
such a stir in the world, but just as I jumped on a potential flare-up
of acrimony, so will I limit conspiracy theories to lists devoted to them.
The traffic on factual matters is heavy enough without adding additional
items which, bottom-line, can't only be speculation.

Larry J

[email-masked]; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 12:42:37 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GAME: German Eagle Vs. Russian Bear .. 1

>
> Lou writes:
> > OK, sports fans, get right over to your nearest university/
> >   research library.  The revised edition of my playable AND
> >   historical game is available on microfiche (only) for your
> >   perusal on the U.S. Govt.-sponsored Educational Resources
> >   Information Center (ERIC) collection.
>
> Thanks for the opening, Lou.  :-)
>
> Speaking of games, did anyone download that rusfront.zip game from
> byrd?  I tried to but it would not unzip properly.  I tried two
> different versions of PKUNZIP with no luck.  Does byrd have the
> correct version that I can use and if so where is it located?
>
> Dazed and Confused, Bill Huber / [email-masked]
>
Try pkz204g.exe in the /pub/history/utils directory at byrd. I've uploaded
rusfront, tested it on Unix, downloaded it and tested it on my PC and
it seemed fine.

While we're on the topic, would a "simulations" directory be appropriate
for byrd? I have one or two other games that are fairly accurate and if
Lou's game can be archived we could add that (if there are no objections?)

Thoughts?

Larry J

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 11:41:27 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <[email-masked]>
Subject: Off Limits Topics

As a relatively new reader of this list, I have been consistently
impressed with the degree of scholarship provided by this list.  It is
by far the best list I have participated in.  (With occasional lapses,
of course.)

But I have questions about _topics_ that are off limits.

Would someone please expain to me what topics are off limits on this list,
and how such as list is created.

I can understand how certain _comments_ are inappropriate, because of their
tone or lack of scholarship.  But I am not sure what makes a
_topic_ _off limits_ to a scholarly discussion--unless of course it is
unrelated to WWII.

Help???

george bauer

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 12:50:16 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRV: Education...

It's interesting that the subject of knowledge of WWII should come up. I
have two children here, one in the 6th grade, one in the 11th. During the
first week of February the 6th grader's class was reading "Diary of Anne
Frank" and the other one was also doing WWII related work. Naturally the
attack on my library was akin to Barbarrosa, but I was impressed that the
subject got the time it did.

Maybe there's hope yet. (Maybe more if I ever graduate and get my teaching
certificate ;-).

Larry J

[email-masked]; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 13:17:48 -0500
From:    Steven VEST <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRV: Education...

Emmanuel (and everyone):

     I don't know whether to be cheered that, in comparison, the American
Education system is only slightly more dismal or just be depressed that
historical ignorance is creeping around the globe.  They can't even whine
(as many of our students do) "Well it was a LONG time ago and it didn't
happen heeeeere."

==========================[email-masked]===========================
= Steven Vest: Head, Off Campus Lib. Services: Nova University, Ft. Ldl, FL =
= Two broken tigers, on fire in the night, flicker their souls to the wind. =
=                                     Al Stewart--Past, Present and Future. =
===============No statements made here reflect Nova University===============

On Thu, 3 Mar 1994, Emmanuel Gustin wrote:

> Today the results of a study on public knowledge about WWII in Belgium
> were published. Secondary school students were asked several questions
> about WWII. Only 58% happened to know who was in power in Germany in 1944.
> Even less could give the name of a concentration camp...
>
> Emmanuel Gustin
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 18:30:50 GMT
From:    Stephen Baldwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Off Limits Topics

>       As a relatively new reader of this list, I have been consistently
>       impressed with the degree of scholarship provided by this list.  It is
>       by far the best list I have participated in.  (With occasional lapses,
>       of course.)
>
>       But I have questions about _topics_ that are off limits.
>
>       Would someone please expain to me what topics are off limits on this list,
>       and how such as list is created.
>
>       I can understand how certain _comments_ are inappropriate, because of their
>       tone or lack of scholarship.  But I am not sure what makes a
>       _topic_ _off limits_ to a scholarly discussion--unless of course it is
>       unrelated to WWII.
>
>       Help???
>
>       george bauer
As a follow-up to George's question, is WWI offlimits too? I have yet
to find a list dedicated to WWI and so have posted various bits&
pieces to MILHIST-L and WWII-L - since there are several relevant links
between the 2 wars. Ocassionally, as with the most excellent discussion
on ordnance on old battlefields (held under the auspices of WWII-L!)
, we have travelled round belgium
and France, through WWI and overto the USA for the civil war!

regards
steve baldwin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 10:48:42 -0800
From:    Jim Benn <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GAME: RUSFront

>
> Speaking of games, did anyone download that rusfront.zip game from
> byrd?  I tried to but it would not unzip properly.  I tried two
> different versions of PKUNZIP with no luck.  Does byrd have the
> correct version that I can use and if so where is it located?
>
> Dazed and Confused, Bill Huber / [email-masked]
>
Same here.  Any info on how to UNZIP it would be appreciated. :-(

 *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*> Jim Benn  [[email-masked]] <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=*
 |-=[        Auto-Graphics, Inc.       ]=[      /~~)       /~~)           ]=-|
 |-=[        8 West Main Street        ]=[     (__(_UTO - (__/RAPHICS     ]=-|
 |-=[        Niantic, CT  06357        ]=[              .___/             ]=-|
 *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*>  PHONE: 800-733-6939 = FAX: 203-691-0183  <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=*

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 13:55:49 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Ardennes

>Hello, Steve!
>
>There was a mass surrender at St. Vith of the 106th Division led by
>General Bruce Clark. The number was around 6000. They were simply
>overwhelmed, and there wasn't much else to do. I think it was the
>largest surrender since Bataan in WWII.
>
>Terry
>
>Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
>P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
>fax 806-371-5370

Terry,
After so many of your excellent posts, you should severely chastise yourself
for making a mistake with this one.(just kidding) The 106th was commanded by
Maj Gen Alan W. Jones, who has faded into well deserved obscurity.The surrender
of the bulk of the 106th happened in positions forward of St. Vith.  MG Jones
was there, but he abrogated his responsibilities to command most defenses to
Brig. Gen. Bruce Clarke of the 7th Armored Division, who became one of the
heroes of the Bulge.  Jones suffered a heart attack later in the battle.

                                                   Con

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 14:11:24 EST5EDT
From:    Jon Kay <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GAME: Any good FTP sites?

Are there any good FTP sites that people know of for conflict
simulation games (preferably WWII)?

------------------------------------------------
above message from : [email-masked]
------------------------------------------------

  "Oh, my God," Ignatius said, "you have powder all over your dress,
although that is probably one of Mrs. Battaglia's beauty hints."
  "Why are you always knocking Mrs. Battaglia, Ignatius?"
  "She appears to have been knocked a bit in her life already... Up
rather than down. If she ever nears me, however, the direction will
be reversed."

                            J.K. Toole, CONFEDERACY OF DUNCES

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 14:24:39 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Off Limits Topics

>
> As a relatively new reader of this list, I have been consistently
> impressed with the degree of scholarship provided by this list.  It is
> by far the best list I have participated in.  (With occasional lapses,
> of course.)
>
> But I have questions about _topics_ that are off limits.

  Off limit topics are listed in the intro. To date we have two, the
Holocaust and FDR's foreknowledge of the attack on Pearl Harbor.
The Holocaust was added to discourage the Neo-Nazi revistionists from
flooding the group with pseudo-documentation of their claims regarding
the events. The FDR thread is on the list for two reasons: 1. Every
piece of "evidence" regarding FDR's awareness of the attack lacks validity,
and 2. I'm sick of it.

  ALL of the Congressional testimony into the events prior to and immediately
after the attack will be available in electronic format within 24 months.
The people in charge of this project lurk on this list and have given me
permission to let that particular cat out of the bag.

> Would someone please expain to me what topics are off limits on this list,

  See above.

> and how such as list is created.

  I create the list. I'll entertain additions upon request, and make excep-
tions as appropriate.
>
> I can understand how certain _comments_ are inappropriate, because of their
> tone or lack of scholarship.  But I am not sure what makes a
> _topic_ _off limits_ to a scholarly discussion--unless of course it is
> unrelated to WWII.

  It's a matter of what I call "loading". Some topics take up so much "space"
that nothing else comes through. A dedicated list to the Holocaust already
exists. One for the FDR-PH thread could be started and have heavy traffic.
Allowing those two topics to monoplize a list dedicated to the whole war
would be a misrepresentation of the purposes of this list. I occasionally
watch a "what-if" thread start up here and when it gets too wild and hairy
I quietly ask the main proponents to take it private. Others, those I know
from the experience of running this list for years will get out of control,
I stifle from the start. I'm not saying these subjects can't be discussed,
I simply stating "not here". I don't consider it unreasonable that in a
war that affected the lives of nearly a billion people, directly or
indirectly, two out of the main possible topics of discussion are not
welcome.

To answer another question, "Which topics are OK?", I ask you to make one
judgement, "Is this relevant to WWII?" If your subject doesn't relate to
WWII I would ask you to find another forum for it. When in doubt, feel
free to e-mail me.

BTW, for WWI discussion, try [email-masked] (I think I got the
address right.)

Larry J

[email-masked]; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 14:50:26 EST
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GAME: German Eagle Vs. Russian Bear .. 1

>Lou writes:
>> OK, sports fans, get right over to your nearest university/
>>   research library.  The revised edition of my playable AND
>>   historical game is available on microfiche (only) for your
>>   perusal on the U.S. Govt.-sponsored Educational Resources
>>   Information Center (ERIC) collection.
>
>Thanks for the opening, Lou.  :-)
>
>Speaking of games, did anyone download that rusfront.zip game from
>byrd?  I tried to but it would not unzip properly.  I tried two
>different versions of PKUNZIP with no luck.  Does byrd have the
>correct version that I can use and if so where is it located?
>
>Dazed and Confused, Bill Huber / [email-masked]
>

Bill,

My pkunzip worked.  It's pretty good.  It's three scenarios from Panzerblitz.

Barry

Barrett F. Lowe               RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, West Point  (e-mail:  [email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 14:34:31 -0600
From:    Lou Coatney <[email-masked]>
Subject: [email-masked]

I think there's a "vm" in there, somewhere, Larry.

Lou

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 14:32:44 -0600
From:    Lou Coatney <[email-masked]>
Subject: The 106th, the Ardennes, and a "friend" of von Manteuffel

I hesitated to respond, assuming someone else would, re:
  Clarke vs. Jones.  I believe Jones had a son in combat, as
  well.

Considering its vulnerable position and the poor planning at
  corps level for a plausible eventuality like "Wacht am
  Rhein," the 106th did as well as could be expected.

Did anyone see the Bruce Clarke & Hasso von Mellenthin 2-part
  "Big Picture" coverage of the Bulge?  It was funny:  Here's
  big Bruce Clarke standing there with diminuitive Hasso
  standing on a tree stump to be at eye level with him for the
  camera!

Egon Weiss, former head of the West Point Library told me that
  he had been an Intelligence & Reconnaisance platoon leader
  (on OUR side -- he was an Austrian emigree --) in the Ardennes
  on the eve of the attack.

He had repeatedly warned of the presence of the elite Panzer
  and SS units building up on the other side of the Our, but
  had (like Major Soltis(sp?)) been ignored.

When the attack hit, his people were "retrograding" like everyone
  else.  He and (the remnants of) his people were in the upstairs
  of a house in Houffalize -- north of Bastogne -- when they
  heard BIG engines on the streets below.  Weiss peered out to
  see GERMAN tanks, SPs, etc. right below his window!

The tanks stopped, and who does he identify (from intelligence
  photos) in one of the turrets but Hasso himself!  Weiss
  lined up vM in his M-1 Garand sights at less than 30 meters.
  He decided not to get his men (and the Belgian family)
  massacred, and did not pull the trigger.

Years after the war, vM came to West Point to lecture.  At the
  following reception, Weiss walked up to vM and "re-introduced"
  himself.  vM couldn't remember him, of course, so Weiss
  explained the circumstances.  They became VERY good friends.

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 14:48:37 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Explosives

> Received: from MAILQUEUE by PCAD (Mercury 1.11); Mon, 28 Feb 94 7:31:41 GMT-6
> Return-path: <@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU:[email-masked]>
> Received: from UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu by PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU (Mercury 1.11);

Hello, Jack!

I guess you saw my post on what is going on here in Amarillo. I was
wondering if you had received my messages dealing with the fighter
units employed on May 13 1944 on a raid on Poznan or Posen as the
Germans called it. Would appreciate a response on this.

Your post is most interesting.

Thanks.

Terry

---------------------------------------------------------------------

> Raritan Arsenal was built in what is now Edison, New Jersey during World
> War I.  It functioned as an Army arsenal during WWI, WWII, Korea and Vietnam.
> In the '70s or 80s it was closed and most of the land was sold to developers;
> Middlesex County College was also built on the land.  Unfortunately, the
> Army never got around to clearing the land and now they have to go in and
> retrieve numerous shells, some dating back to WWI.  There are even rumors
> that poison gas shells were buried there.  My wife works for a company that
> located in what is now called Raritan Center and she tells of hearing
> explosions all the time as shells are collected and then exploded.
> Fortunately, the rumors about poison gas shells have not been proven, YET!
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> |  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
> |  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
> |  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
> |  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 20:48:16 GMT
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <[email-masked]>
Subject: GAME: War in Russia (PC)

        Hey all

        I have here a PC based game called War In Russia that I think
you guys might enjoy. It is a board-like setup game that takes place
from June 22 1941 on the Eastern Front and either ends in Berlin
several years later or as in my case somewhere east of Moscow :)
        This one seams very advanced (it is the advanced version of a
game called Second Front of 91 or so) and has a lot of variables. The
computer has some AI and on my machine is not that easy to win (PC based
486/66, 16MB RAM).
        I played it not for land but to maul the Russians, especially
the tank armies and then when they were gone I was pretty safe for a bit
while they tried to rebuilt another force.
        I won the war for Hitler (in the east that it) in Nov 1941 +:)

This is commercial game but I dont know the US price for it

bye all

Gudmundur J. Helgason

E-mail:    [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 16:06:51 EST
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: The 106th, the Ardennes, and a friend of von

Lou,

Good story. Thanks for sharing it.

Bear

>I hesitated to respond, assuming someone else would, re:
>  Clarke vs. Jones.  I believe Jones had a son in combat, as
>  well.
>
>Considering its vulnerable position and the poor planning at
>  corps level for a plausible eventuality like "Wacht am
>  Rhein," the 106th did as well as could be expected.
>
>Did anyone see the Bruce Clarke & Hasso von Mellenthin 2-part
>  "Big Picture" coverage of the Bulge?  It was funny:  Here's
>  big Bruce Clarke standing there with diminuitive Hasso
>  standing on a tree stump to be at eye level with him for the
>  camera!
>
>Egon Weiss, former head of the West Point Library told me that
>  he had been an Intelligence & Reconnaisance platoon leader
>  (on OUR side -- he was an Austrian emigree --) in the Ardennes
>  on the eve of the attack.
>
>He had repeatedly warned of the presence of the elite Panzer
>  and SS units building up on the other side of the Our, but
>  had (like Major Soltis(sp?)) been ignored.
>
>When the attack hit, his people were "retrograding" like everyone
>  else.  He and (the remnants of) his people were in the upstairs
>  of a house in Houffalize -- north of Bastogne -- when they
>  heard BIG engines on the streets below.  Weiss peered out to
>  see GERMAN tanks, SPs, etc. right below his window!
>
>The tanks stopped, and who does he identify (from intelligence
>  photos) in one of the turrets but Hasso himself!  Weiss
>  lined up vM in his M-1 Garand sights at less than 30 meters.
>  He decided not to get his men (and the Belgian family)
>  massacred, and did not pull the trigger.
>
>Years after the war, vM came to West Point to lecture.  At the
>  following reception, Weiss walked up to vM and "re-introduced"
>  himself.  vM couldn't remember him, of course, so Weiss
>  explained the circumstances.  They became VERY good friends.
>
>Lou Coatney, WIU

Barrett F. Lowe               RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, West Point  (e-mail:  [email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 15:04:55 CST
From:    jesse carnes <[email-masked]>
Subject: Ben Olds flamed over Polesti

Dear All ;

My uncle was Ben Olds from a wealthy oil family in Oklahoma.
He died 9-10 years before I was born.  He, according to my adopted dad, was
apparently a fighter pilot during WW2.
However he was killed by the Germans and I do not know if it was FLAK or, say
a Me-109 or FW, etc.
I DO know that he was killed over Polesti in one of the raids on the oil
refinery.

Could someone refer me to some source by which I could obtain more info. on
this?  Like which AAF unit was he part of, when the specific mish took place,
and so forth.

Even a little direction would help.

Thanx!

Jesse Carnes
[email-masked]
Baton Rouge, LA

PS, my home tel. no. is (504) 383-8134
------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 16:23:00 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [email-masked]

>
> I think there's a "vm" in there, somewhere, Larry.
>
> Lou
>

Here's one of the listowners' address, ask him for more details ;-).

Pat Hughes <@VM.CC.PURDUE.EDU:JPHUGHES@UKANVM>

Larry J

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 15:33:47 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: The 106th, the Ardennes, and a "friend" of von Manteuff

> Received: from MAILQUEUE by PCAD (Mercury 1.11); Thu, 3 Mar 94 14:40:44 GMT-6
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Hello, Lou!

Great post and very informative. Your heading is correct but you
mistakenly use the name of von Mellenthin rather than von Manteuffel
below.

> Considering its vulnerable position and the poor planning at
>   corps level for a plausible eventuality like "Wacht am
>   Rhein," the 106th did as well as could be expected.
>
> Did anyone see the Bruce Clarke & Hasso von Mellenthin 2-part
>   "Big Picture" coverage of the Bulge?  It was funny:  Here's
>   big Bruce Clarke standing there with diminuitive Hasso
>   standing on a tree stump to be at eye level with him for the
>   camera!

    Yes, I did many years ago. I really wish there was some way to
acquire that series on video cassette. That series is the best visual
record the army has ever produced on the war.

 > He had repeatedly warned of the presence of the elite Panzer
>   and SS units building up on the other side of the Our, but
>   had (like Major Soltis(sp?)) been ignored.

   I think you hit the crux of the problem here with the Bulge.
   It was an intelligence failure, and many in command failed to
appreciate the intelligence that was available.

    > The tanks stopped, and who does he identify (from intelligence
>   photos) in one of the turrets but Hasso himself!  Weiss
>   lined up vM in his M-1 Garand sights at less than 30 meters.
>   He decided not to get his men (and the Belgian family)
>   massacred, and did not pull the trigger.

    Most interesting!

    One more thing. Why didn't you stay in the army? I take it you
graduated from West Point. Just curious.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 17:03:05 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [email-masked]

> >
> > I think there's a "vm" in there, somewhere, Larry.
> > Lou
> >
> Here's one of the listowners' address, ask him for more details ;-).
> Pat Hughes <@VM.CC.PURDUE.EDU:JPHUGHES@UKANVM>
>
> Larry J
>
Sorry, fell into "wizard" mode there. For those not familiar with Bitnet
addressing, you should send mail to:

[email-masked]

(I need to keep reminding myself of the times when I couldn't figure out
my OWN address ;-).

Larry J

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 22:09:10 GMT
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <[email-masked]>
Subject: Offline Mail Readers, HELP! :)

Hey all

        How do I use OffLine Mail Readers? I have several that I dont
know how to set up, any ideas? I think it is mainly the Unix server side
that is confusing me, seems I have to make some packege file that I'd
then download and feed my OS/2 reader

        any help would be appreciated :)

Thanks

Gudmundur J. Helgason

E-mail:    [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 16:36:23 EST
From:    Chuck Weckesser <[email-masked]>
Subject: Gen. Steiner: Defence of Berlin

I have recently finished an excellent book which deals strictly with the
"defence" of Berlin in April, 1945. One of the main "characters" for lack of a
better word is an SS General named Steiner.

Problem is that *before* reading this book, I had never heard of a "General
Steiner" and apparently, Hitler attached a great deal of hope on Steiner pulling
the fat out of the fire even though Field Marshall Henricci, who replaced
Guderian, was nominally in charge.

Can anyone else provide me with more *pre 1945* information on this very
interesting General Steiner? Unfortunately, the book does not discuss any
contributions he may have made prior to the defence of Berlin.

Kind Regards,

Chuck

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 17:11:52 EST
From:    Chuck Weckesser <[email-masked]>
Subject: QUEST: Sinking of the Indianapolis

Recently, I saw a re-run on my satellite of a network film starring Richard
Thomas (Walton's) dealing with our greatest Naval loss ever, the sinking of the
Indianapolis by two Kaiten torpedos in July 1945 just after dropping off
extremely important cargo (the A-bomb).

I was absolutely horrified by two things. Could someone familar with how the
Navy works please explain. It would seem to me that "zig-zagging" or not, the
ship still would have sunk.

Why was Capt. McVay (sp?) made into a scapegoat by the Chief of Naval
Operations????? It wasn't his fault!!!!!!!! Captain McVay later killed himself -
actually, much later, say, around 1969 or so.

Second, I was *HORRIFIED* that during his court-martial the Navy would have the
unmitigated gall and audacity to besmirch the good name of Captain McVay based
on the testimony of the Jap submarine commander!!

I consider that nothing short of utter blasphemy. Maybe I'm overreacting here. I
don't know. But to bring this horrible miscretant from Tokyeo to testify against
one of our boys makes me absolutely ill. The very thought of it!

As it turns out, Capt. McVay was not warned that subs were operating in the
Leyote area. He did nothing wrong from what I can see and he was later pardoned
(I think).

Can anyone else shed some more details here? Why would the Navy try to trash
this man? Also, is it true that the Indianapolis was considered the "flag" ship
of the fleet? Is it true that FDR and Churchill once met on this ship?

Thanks for any info.

Kind Regards,

Chuck

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 14:44:47 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Off Limits Topics

I share your regrets there is little if any discussion of the First World War
on this list.
'Could be that simply isn't much considered an "American war", and many
contributors here prefer WW2 as a topic.
Virtually no discussion of any *other* conflict, come to think of it.
Not even about, say The Philippine Insurrection, Marines in Haiti (1915),
the Boer War, Boxer Rebellion, Crimea, Rorke'sDrift..... one could go on
for a while, indeed, about the choice of discussions.
'Just doesn't seem to be much interest in a wider wonderful world of
warfare...

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 16:53:14 -0600
From:    Roger Pinkston <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GAME: German Eagle Vs. Russian Bear .. 1

Where can I find this game? Every one is talking about it. Where can I
FTP it from?

Thanks,

Roger Pinkston

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 15:06:08 PST
From:    Alan Hepburn <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Off Limits Topics

All this lamenting about the lack of discussion of wars other
than WWII is somewhat disturbing.  After all, this list is
dedicated to the discussion of WWII, not war in genaral.  If
people want to discuss other wars, then they should start another
list.  Do you go to a list dedicated to discussing firearms and
lament the lack of discussion of shovels?

---

Alan Hepburn            "Freedom is increasingly defined as the accumulation
National Semiconductor   of rights and entitlements, and as a license for any
Santa Clara, Ca          form of self-gratification."
[email-masked]                                       Zbigniew Brzezinski

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 15:21:23 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Gen. Steiner: Defence of Berlin

Gen Steiner was just another one put in charge of the no-win job of
defending Berlin.
When events prevented Steiner from doing all that Hitler expected, Der
Fuhrer said, "Steiner has failed to move a single man to attack the Rusians
at Eberswalde... the war is lost".

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 15:36:51 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Off Limits Topics

You are right. of course, in pointing out this is a WW2 list.
Still, it needn't be considered all that "disturbing" that people comment
about other wars. Fair comment, after all. And we all admire fair comment,
don't we?

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 00:33:18 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Gen. Steiner: Defence of Berlin

On Thu, 3 Mar 1994, Chuck Weckesser wrote:

> Problem is that *before* reading this book, I had never heard of a "General
> Steiner" and apparently, Hitler attached a great deal of hope on Steiner pulling
> the fat out of the fire even though Field Marshall Henricci, who replaced
> Guderian, was nominally in charge.

Heinrici did not replace chief of staff Guderian; when Guderian was sent
away to look after his health he was replaced by Krebs. Heinrici
commanded the armies, or what was left of them, at the Oder. Steiner led
a disorganized group, probably created by collecting survivors of other
units. He had few men and little armament. That he was so important in
the mind of Hitler says more about the latter's mental health than about
anything else...

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 15:44:18 -0800
From:    "Office TH325, Extension 3566" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: QUEST: Sinking of the Indianapolis

Chuck,

Parts deleted

>Recently, I saw a re-run on my satellite of a network film starring Richard
>Thomas (Walton's) dealing with our greatest Naval loss ever, the sinking of the
>Indianapolis by two Kaiten torpedos in July 1945 just after dropping off
>extremely important cargo (the A-bomb).
>

Kaiten torpedos were human-manned (suicide) torpedos.  I-58, the sub
that sank her, was a kaiten-carrier sub, but she used regular torpedos to
sink Indianapolis

>
>Second, I was *HORRIFIED* that during his court-martial the Navy would have the
>unmitigated gall and audacity to besmirch the good name of Captain McVay based
>on the testimony of the Jap submarine commander!!
>
>I consider that nothing short of utter blasphemy. Maybe I'm overreacting here. I
>don't know. But to bring this horrible miscretant from Tokyeo to testify against
>one of our boys makes me absolutely ill. The very thought of it!
>

Miscretant? Do you mean miscreant?  My dictionary defines that as one
who behaves badly or criminally.  How does that apply to this sub
skipper?  The war was not over you know.

>Can anyone else shed some more details here? Why would the Navy try to trash
>this man? Also, is it true that the Indianapolis was considered the "flag" ship
>of the fleet? Is it true that FDR and Churchill once met on this ship?

Indianopolis was Spruance's flag ship when he commanded the 5th
fleet (which became 3rd fleet under Halsey).  If I remember correctly
Spruance was from Indiana.  I don't know about Churchill, but FDR was on
her in the 30's.

John Riegsecker
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 18:06:49 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Off Limits Topics

I guess I was trying to separate out the requirement of respectable
scholarship with the personal views of the _owner_ of the list.
Maybe the word _owner_ when applied to a list is what is throwing me...
I have seen moderated and unmoderated, but I'm not sure I have run into
_owner_ before.

But I am a new user and fast learner...

george bauer

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 18:32:28 -0600
From:    Lou Coatney <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: The 106th, the Ardennes, and a "friend" of von Manteuff

Terry,

     One reason for the successful surprise in the Ardennes,
of course, was that Hitler didn't (have to) use ULTRA.  Thus,
SHAEF's principle and most credible intelligence source gave
no clue to the impending avalanche.

     I resigned from the Academy after New Cadet "Beast"
Barracks and one academic semester.  Her name was Sylvia,
a winsome little Swedish-Danish nymph who put me back
together again in the Summer of '65.  (Remember the song?
That's EXACTLY the way it was.)

     Incidentally, I note in the CHRONICLE that West Point
is looking for a poly sci prof.  Bear?  Con?  Is the
Academy starting to hire civilian faculty now?

     As a cadet, I was a tie-up.  I would have probably
gotten 40 kids and myself killed quickly in VN.  I occasionally
wonder what it would have been like if I had stayed in (and
survived), but (as you know) I can be fairly impolitic and
suspect my career would have been accordingly short.  :-)

Lou

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 16:08:41 +0000
From:    John Behrens <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: QUEST: FDR/Advance Knowledge of PH

I realize that this is an unwelcome topic, but seeing it reminds me of a
book I read in high school called The Paladin.

It was about a young boy that happened to grow up in a country cottage
that was close to the country home of Winston Churchill.  Appearently,
during the war, this boy did a lot of behind the lines work for
Churchill.  One of these jobs was to be flown half way around the world
and dropped into the Pacific to rendezvous with a Brittish sub.  His
stated job was to install new tips on the torpedos.  In reallity he was
installing time bombs that blew up the sub right after they dropped him
off.  The reason for this mission was because appearently the sub had
spotted a large Japanese armada steaming its way toward Hawaii in late
November early December 1941.  This sub had radioed this information
numerous times, being stalled each time.  Churchill decided, or was
advised, to blow up the sub so there was no way the information could be
given to the Americans.  The allies needed America in the war if there
was any chance of winning it.  He knew that a blatant attack by the
Japanese against the U.S. would do this and get the public behind the war
effort.

The book is appearently based on a true story.  How much of it is true, I
have no idea.  The boy was involved in other big areas like Belgium right
before the invasion.  North Africa right before the invasion, etc.
Regardless of fact or fiction, it was a good book and facinating read.

Now that I have broached the subject, would any of you full time
historians care to coment on this information.  I am curious if it is
true, and, if so, how much.

                                John

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 18:46:31 -0600
From:    Lou Coatney <[email-masked]>
Subject: Best Aredennes book (?)

Incidentally, the best introductory book -- I think -- is
  John Toland's BATTLE.  You can see/feel the huge Tigers and
  Panthers sneaking through the pines.

Lou Coatney, WIU Library (until 30 Jun 94)

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 19:31:25 -0600
From:    Cheryl Bryant <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: Concentration camps

On Wed, 2 Mar 1994, James E Irwin wrote:

> My two cents on concentration camps:
>
> I was at Dachau in the late 70's, and the crematoriums are still
> standing.  It may not have been an "extermination" camp, ala
> Auschwitz, but they were surely preparing to dispose of the
> inmates who did not make it.
>
> I personally don't see a whole lot of difference between Dachau
> and Auschwitz.
__________________________________________________________________

Mr. Irwin,
  I went to the Konzentrationslager Dachau this past summer and I am sure
that little has changed since you visited it in the 1970s.  The
crematorium is still there and the musium still tells the story of Dachau.

  I am not sure how many people lost their lives at Auschwitz, but I do
know that from 1933-1945 the total Confirmed death toll was 31,591.  No
one knows how many people died in transport to or from Dachau.  There
were a total of 206,206 prisoners held in Dachau between 1933 and 1945.

The Prisoner Count of Dachau by Years:

1933     4,821
1934     1,990
1935     2,111
1936     2,323
1937     2,015
1938    18,681
1939     3,932
1940    22,675
1941     6,135
1942    12,572
1943    19,358
1944    78,635
1945    30,958
Total   206,206

You might also be interested in knowing the nationalities of the
prisoners held in Dachau between 1940-1945.

 1. Albanian            44      20. Letten (I don't know trans.)  230
 2. Americans           11      21. Lithuanian                  3,250
 3. Arabs                3      22. Luxemburg                     211
 4. Armanian             4      23. Norwegian                      77
 5. Belgian            989      24. Iranian                         1
 6. Bulgarian           54      25. Polish                     14,994
 7. Chinese              2      26. Portugese                       8
 8. Danish               1      27. Romanian                       69
 9. German *         6,118      28. Russian                    13,536
10. English             13      29. Swedish                         7
11. Esten (no trans.)    5      30. Swiss                          12
12. Finnish              1      31. Serbian                       516
13. French           5,706      32. Slovak                        244
14. Greek              338      33. Slovanian (?)               1,746
15. Dutch              836      34. Spanish                       286
16. Italian          3,388      35. Czech                       1,974
17. Japanese             1      36. Turkish                        86
18. Canadian             1      37. Hungarian                  12,067
19. Kroation           818      38. No Country                     17

        * Austrians were counted as German.

Sorry that I could not translate some of the countries.  I do not know
them in English.
__________________________________
Bibliography

Distel, Barbara.  _Konzentrationslager Dachau_. Haerne, Bruessel: Comite
        International de Dachau, 1972.

Neuhaeusler, Dr. Johann. _Wie war das in KZ Dachau?_.  Dillingen-Donau:
        G.J. Manz AG, 1973.

Segieth, Johannes. _Konzentrationslager Dachau: 1933-1945_.  Muenchen:
        Lipp GmbH, 1978.
________________________________________________________________________

Hope this gives some information on Dachau.

C.K. Bryant
*************************************************
"The Riskier the road, the greater the profit."
        The 62nd Rule of Acquisition
*************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 21:41:29 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Off Limits Topics

>
> I guess I was trying to separate out the requirement of respectable
> scholarship with the personal views of the _owner_ of the list.
> Maybe the word _owner_ when applied to a list is what is throwing me...
> I have seen moderated and unmoderated, but I'm not sure I have run into
> _owner_ before.

  I think "tender" would be more accurate, but all the terms mean is that
I went to work of starting the list, I'm the one who has his mailbox implode
at the end of every semester when students forget to unsub, and I'm the
one who gets a copy of every error from the list (311 such errors Monday
morning).
  I'm not grumbling, I've gotten a huge amount of satisfaction out of
running this zoo^H^H^Hlist. I think we have a rather unique group on this
list and I get a special kick out of seeing "I've lurked here for a while
and this is my first posting...". It's like having someone new join us by
the fire and add to the discussion.

> But I am a new user and fast learner...

  Learning fast is how I stayed alive 1970-72 :-/.

> george bauer

Larry J

[email-masked]; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 00:00:51 EST
From:    Kevin Brown <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: U-Boats

<There was in fact very nearly as good a chance of a convoy
<of forty ships in close order slipping unpercieved between the <patrolling
U-Boats as there was for a single ship;

True; but my point was that the CAPTAINS (and even some USN types) felt
unescorted convoys weren't worth the bother.  The idea of the convoy getting
by as well as a single ship was not intuitively obvious.  I believe  a
research team at MIT worked it out mathematically and finally settled the
issue.

K.B.

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 2 Mar 1994 to 3 Mar 1994
***********************************************