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There are 43 messages totalling 1253 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. U Boats In USA Waters??
  2. Pol: World Monetary System
  3. INF: El Alamein strengths (2)
  4. <No subject given>
  5. WEAP: USAAF 2 MAR 44
  6. Boring ("sixties" & "childish naivete") (2)
  7. INF: Italian, German troops in N. Africa (3)
  8. U boats (2)
  9. Addr: RE: Monty
 10. ADMIN: Courtesy and Civility
 11. TRV? Top Nazis in WWI (was Roehm shot)
 12. GEN: Shameless Plug
 13. Chilling Einsatzgruppen Request, Read! (2)
 14. German vs Soviet Military Quality (CPT Steve Eden)
 15. GEN: Concentration camps
 16. GEN:  U-Boats in American waters
 17. Personalities:  Bill Winchell,
 18. POL(?) South American involvement in WWII (4)
 19. Boring? (2)
 20. POL: Brazil in WWII (4)
 21. INF: Mines in Flanders (2)
 22. GAME: German vs Soviet Military Quality (CPT Steve Eden)
 23. B-26s
 24. Nost:  Teddy Bears
 25. Italians vs. British in East Africa:  "Best of Enemies"
 26. GERMAN EAGLE VS. RUSSIAN BEAR, 2d ed., now avail. on ERIC
 27. Where have all t...
 28. U-Boats
 29. TRV: Education...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 00:45:33 EST
From:    Joseph Wolm <JW2827@ACSPR1.ACS.BROCKPORT.EDU>
Subject: Re: U Boats In USA Waters??

U-boats whhere seen and did complete missions (very successful) missions
during WWII.
I dont have it in me right this minute but there are two or three articles
in a magazine called WWII in which describe German sub groups in American
waters.
I may be wrong but i heard a few stories about wreckage and bodies floating
onto the east shore.  In two articles they talk about burning wrecks
off the coast????
sincerly,
Joseph Wolm.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 1 Mar 1994 13:48:18 -0500
From:    David Rising <drising@IO.ORG>
Subject: Pol: World Monetary System

On Tue, 1 Mar 1994 mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU (Lou Coatney) wrote:

> David Rising,
>
>      How about the basis of the world monetary system?
>
> Lou Coatney
>
That was in response to my assertion that there was nothing of great
enough  importance in Switzerland to warrant a German invasion during
WWII. Which leads me to my next question--How about the basis of the
world monetary system? I'm not much on economic history, but I'd be
willing to bet that the Germans didn't give a hoot about the world
monetary system after 1939. Am I mistaken? Also, did the Swiss have
enough control/power to do anything to the Germans (economically) even if
they wanted to ?
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 01:19:06 CST
From:    Steve Alvin <salvin@HEARTLAND.BRADLEY.EDU>
Subject: Re: INF: El Alamein strengths

Steve,

A couple of points about your total strength:  The tank strength
for each side is a bit misleading.  If you include just the 1942
equivelent of MBT's the British had 205 Grant/Lee's, 267 Shermans,
and 105 up-armed Crusaders with the 6 pounder.  The Germans had
slightly less than 250 Mk III's, some with the "long 50mm" and
Mk IV, a few with the "long 75's".  Also, you have to factor in
the German Anti-tank guns, as they played a major role in
Rommel
's battlefield tactics.

The numbers may have been similiar to those of the Tobruk battles,
but once again there is a major differnce:  The Germans werre
that much further from their supplyhead.  They were never really
able to rely on Tobruk as a port.

Also, another consideration was the Allied invasion of North
Africa, which occured at the same time.  Any supplies and
rienforcements that could have helped Rommel stabalize the line
after Alamein went to Tunis instead (which was much easier to
supply than Tripoli and ports further east.) Montgomery could
count on fresh shipments of tanks and had a unlimited supply of
munnitions and petrol.  Rommel could expect no reinforcements,
had petrol for 11 days of *normal* operations and 9 days of
ammunition.

In the air, not counting transports, the Germans had 350 planes,
the British 530.  In anti-tank guns the Germans had 550 and the
Italians 300.  The British had 1500.


--
Steve Alvin
salvin@heartland.bradley.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 05:30:23 EST
From:    "Chuck Weckesser, M.A." <71233.677@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: <No subject given>

Mail Chuck Weckesser

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 07:11:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: WEAP: USAAF 2 MAR 44

THURSDAY, 2 MARCH 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 9 B-24s fly a futile shipping search over the
Kurile Islands; turned back by a weather front, they either jettison or bring
back their bombs.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 5 P-51s bomb artillery positions in
the Maingkwan area; 20 P-40s hit a fuel dump at Myitkyina, artillery at
Shingban, and trucks on a road near Walawbum; 8 A-36s and P-51s hit an
encampment on Pagoda Peak near Mogaung.
  HQ 81st Fighter Group arrives at Karachi, India from Italy.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In French Indochina, 4 B-25s sink a small
steamer near Mon Cay and bomb railroad shops and coal treating plant at
Campho. In China, 10 P-38s damage 2 bridges and strafe 2 barracks areas N of
Nanchang; 2 P-40s bomb and strafe the airfield and barracks at Kengtung.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 244:
  1. 327 B-17s are dispatched to the Franfurt am Main marshalling yard; only
101 hit the primary target because of PFF failures; 103 hit Frankfurt
Offenbach, 49 hit Ludwigshafen, 20 hit Limburg, 12 hit Fischbach and 8 hit
other targets of opportunity; 8 B-17s are lost with 1 KIA, 5 WIA and 80 MIA.
154 B-24s are also dispatched to the same target; 36 hit the primary and 46
hit targets of opportunity; 1 B-24 is lost and 3 damaged beyond repair;
casualties are 16 KIA, 4 WIA and 11 MIA. The bombers claim 2-0-2 Luftwaffe
aircraft. Escort is provided by 33 P-38s, 445 Eighth and Ninth Air Force
P-47s and 111 P-51s; 1 P-38 is damaged; the P-47s claim 13-2-3 Luftwaffe
aircraft, 3 P-47s are lost and 7 damaged, 2 pilots are MIA; the P-51s claim
4-0-1 Luftwaffe aircraft, 2 P-51s are damaged and 1 pilot is MIA.
  2. 84 of 106 B-17s dispatched hit the air depot at Chartres, France; 1 B-17
is lost and 12 damaged; casualties are 1 WIA and 10 MIA. This mission is
escorted by 89 P-38s, 145 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s and 47 Ninth Air
Force P-51s; they claim 2-0-0 Luftwaffe aircraft on the ground; 1 P-38 is
lost.
  Mission 245: 5 of 5 B-17s drop 250 bundles of leaflets on Caen, Amiens,
Rouen, Chartres and Rennes, France at 2015-2054 hours without loss.
  HQ 92d Combat Bombardment Wing (Heavy) moves from Camp Blainey to
Sudbury, England.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, 353 B-26s attack NOBALL
(V-weapon) targets, Tergnier, and Amiens/Glisy and Rosieres-en-Santerre
Airfields in morning and afternoon missions.
  Moves in England: 79th Troop Carrier Squadron, 436th Troop Carrier Group,
from Bottesford to Membury with C-47s; 391st Fighter Squadron, 366th
Fighter Group, from Membury to Thruxton with P-47s (first mission is 14
Mar).

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 459th Bombardment Group
(Heavy) (with B-24s) becomes operational, giving the Fifteenth Air Force 13
heavy bomber groups on combat status. In Italy, nearly 300 B-17s and B-24s,
escorted by 150+ P-38s and P-47s, support the US Fifth Army's Anzio
beachhead, bombing the Cisterna di Roma-La Villa area, Velletri, and troop
concentrations, guns and other military targets in the battle area at several
points, including the Stazione di Campoleone and Carroceto areas.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-26s attack an assembly
area E of Carroceto and, with B-25s, bomb guns and an assembly area NW of
Cisterna di Roma, A-20s hit troops in the beachhead battle area; P-40s and
A-36s blast troops and guns throughout the Anzio battle area, also hitting
Cisterna and Littoria; P-40s and A-36s fly uneventful cover over Anzio. P-47s
hit a motor vessel off Sibenik, Yugoslavia leaving it burning.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-24's from Makin and Abemama
Islands, Gilbert Islands bomb Ponape and Kusaie Islands, Caroline Islands.
B-25s bomb Maloelap Atoll.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island in
the Admiralty Islands, P-40s join US Navy (USN) fighters in covering a USN
dive bomber strike on shipping installations in the Keravia Bay area; 12
B-25s pound Rabaul while 11 others, with USN fighter support, bomb Rapopo;
shortly afterwards, 20 escorted B-24's blast the town area of Rabaul; 14
P-38s follow immediately with a strike on the same target. P-39s hit
Japanese-occupied Piano and Monoitu Missions on Bougainville Island.
  67th Fighter Squadron, 347th Fighter Group, based in the Russell Islands,
begins operating from Bougainville Island with P-39s; the squadron will
convert to P-38s in Apr.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 80+ B-24s and
P-40s hit the Hansa Bay area, the airstrip at Nubia, and the Madang-
Alexishafen area. 60+ B-25s and A-20s pound enemy forces on Los Negros
Island as Allied ground forces occupy Momote Airfield; P-47s providing cover
for the B-25s claim 7 enemy fighters shot down.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 07:48:20 EST
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Boring ("sixties" & "childish naivete")

On Tue, 1 Mar 1994 14:02:00 PST <HIST301306@AXE.HUMBOLDT.EDU> said:
>intelligent and spiritual beings. Listen to Dead Can Dance, the Beatles,

Actually, I'd prefer to listen to, and play, the original music the DCD
sometimes re-arranges (-:

>On pg. 24 in Michael Lyon's "WW2: A Short History" is the by-the-way fact that
>Germany actually profited from WW1.The American bankers Charles Dawes and Owen
>Young repaid Germany twice more in loans "to rebuild the German economy" than
>the $33 bil. that Germany was originally required to pay in reparations to the
>Allies. -Peace to all who live- -Dylan Fierro  "Facts, son, plain facts."

Fair's fair.  If you are going to cite a fact like that in isolation, you have
to explain Keynes' =The Economic Consequences of the Peace= as well.  For
those who haven't happened upon it, an engrossing explanation of why Versailles
was pretty much a crock, in terms of economics.

ken koester
maint2@ers.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 07:56:36 EST
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: INF: Italian, German troops in N. Africa

On Tue, 1 Mar 1994 20:40:06 EST5EDT you said:
>I was just reading a synopsis of Rommel's African campaign in a book
>entitled "German Generals of WWII" and the author's description of
>the Italian troops was negative verging on contemptuous. According
>to the book, it seems they were ineffectual in anything but static
>defense mode. The author described them as "slog-footed" with respect
>to their mobility and attack effectiveness.

The Italians suffered generally from poor leadership & poor equipment.
Officers in Ariete, Littorio, and Trieste don't seem to have really had a
"mobile war spirit", exacerbated by the poor state of their radio net.
When led by German officers, Italians fought a lot better than most would
give them credit for.  Also, some Italian units were pretty good.  The arty
put in a credible performance as a whole; the Bersiglieri regiments were
about up to German/British/Commonwealth standards.  On the other hand, the
pure infantry divisions didn't have any motor transport to speak of, so
they were automatically consigned to static defense, which was fairly
useless in the desert.

ken koester
maint2@ers.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 08:12:28 EST
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: INF: El Alamein strengths

On Wed, 2 Mar 1994 01:19:06 CST Steve Alvin said:
>A couple of points about your total strength:  The tank strength
>for each side is a bit misleading.  If you include just the 1942
>equivelent of MBT's the British had 205 Grant/Lee's, 267 Shermans,
>and 105 up-armed Crusaders with the 6 pounder.  The Germans had
>slightly less than 250 Mk III's, some with the "long 50mm" and
>Mk IV, a few with the "long 75's".  Also, you have to factor in
>the German Anti-tank guns, as they played a major role in
>Rommel
>'s battlefield tactics.

Skimming part of =The Rommel Papers= last night gives the Germans 38 tanks
armed with 75's.  Overall, the British are cited with 5.5 times the numbers
of German tanks, 2.5 times the number of German/Italian.  German tanks
overall is cited as 210.  The discrepancy from above may be runners vs.
deadlined.

>. . . . Montgomery could
>count on fresh shipments of tanks and had a unlimited supply of
>munnitions and petrol.  Rommel could expect no reinforcements,
>had petrol for 11 days of *normal* operations and 9 days of
>ammunition.

The =Papers= give the Afrika Korps 3 "issues" of petrol & further explain
that it would use an issue a day.  8 issues was considered the bare
minimum desirable for the Korps.  Arty ammo was in such short supply that
Stumme (commanding the first day at Alamein) did not allow any response to
the initial attack.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 09:08:34 EST
From:    Bill Vasilion <wvasilion@VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject: U boats

           Thanks Terry that is interesting. I remember the
        FBI would write storis about theier capturing sabotouers
       off the east coast, being dumped thier by uboats..

        Something for the list, I know what countries were at war
         but during WW-II what was happening in South America????

          I mean i dont remember hearing about George patton of brazil.
        my real question is did life go on there as normal, or were
        they affected by shortages and rationing also????
I know paraguay or argentina was somewhat used by the nazi's
        i think,,as a friendly port.... I have not run across anybooks
       on this so I thought i would run this by you.

            thanks bill

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 09:23:05 EDT
From:    RICHARD KING <RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Addr: RE: Monty

One quote (I don't know where it originated) I've heard concerning
Monty: "He was willing to fight the war to the last American."
****************************************************************
Richard King, RKING@VUNET.VINU.EDU

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 10:08:44 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: ADMIN: Courtesy and Civility

I'm a crusty retired sailor and my language has been discribed as "colorful"
by some kind souls. I force myself to read my postings carefully before sending
them to listserv.  Besides trying to obey the standards we've set for
ourselves on this list I have another rather important reason for watching
my language.  As the "veteran" members of the list know, all postings to
this list are saved and archived at byrd. People who wish to follow the
discussion, historians looking for the odd fact, and others of various
persuasions can check into back-issues of the lists postings and "poke around".
The fact that everything I say will be available for decades or more makes
me consider what I post before sending it.

The vast majority of postings to this list have been thoughtful and well
founded, or at the very least entertaining. I would ask you to keep this
tradition up and consider how you posting will look to people who may not
even be born yet. Courtesy and civility are the core elements that keep
this list workable and the continuation of these standards are essential.
Keep up the good work and please don't consider this post to be directed
at any one person, but rather as a reminder that your words are graven
in stone once you send them.

servabo fidem,
Larry J

JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 09:57:17 -0600
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: TRV? Top Nazis in WWI (was Roehm shot)

Chris Morton writes about Roehm being of the "old school"...

> Yes, you're totally wrong on that! :)
>
> Roehm was the antithesis of the Prussian junkers.
>
> He was a homosexual, had a reputation for child molestation and wanted
> to replace the Reichsweher/Wehrmacht with a working class party army using
> the SA as the base.

Hi Chris,

All true but there is also some truth to his "old school" background
as Roehm had been a Rittmeister (Captain) in a Cav outfit during the
First World War.

Interestingly, Hitler was one of the few enlisted men in the inner
circle of the Nazi Party.  As much as Hitler disliked officers he
certainly surrounded himself with them.  Goering was a Hauptmann -
Captain and last commander of the von Richtofen Jagtgeschwader where
he won his Pour le Merite (aka Blue Max) and Hess was a Lt. in the
Infantry and shot through the left lung at one point.  Roehm as
mentioned already, a Captain.  Julius Streicher had been a Sergeant in
Hitler's company during WWI.  Himmler was too young to have served in
WWI. Goebbles was exempt from military service due to his physical
conditions (4F in the States).  Sepp Dietrich had been a Sergeant in
the tank corps and even wore his WWI tanker badge all through WWII.

And during the early days Hitler courted the respected figures of
Germany's Imperial Army like Ludendorf to lend credibility to the
fledgling movement.  One of Wilhelm II's sons was even a General in
the SA - a Hohenzollern Crown Prince!

Ludendorf actually marched at the head of the column in Hitler's ill
fated attempt to take over the Bavarian Govt. in Munich 8/9 Nov. 1923.
And when I say marched I mean he marched right through the hail of
police gunfire and strolled right up to the police to be arrested
while everybody else was scrambling like cockroaches when the kitchen
light comes on!   This was when Goering was badly wounded being shot
in the leg and was taken to Sweden where he met his first wife Karin.
It was also during this time that he got hooked on morpheme.  Rumors
persisted within the Nazi party that he never kicked the habit but
they were just that - rumors.  Neat story.

The official Nazi version of the Putsch had Hitler diving on top of a
little girl to protect her from the police bullets with his own
body.... hmmmmm.

Ciao,  Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 10:02:38 CST
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: GEN: Shameless Plug

Responding to the occasional requests for pictures of Miss Mitchell, our
B-25, I direct people to the April 1994 issue of Air Classics and an
article written by Chuck Sloat on the CAF's 30th Anniversary Airsho in
Midland, last October.  Nice article prominently featuring the Southern
Minnesota Wing throughout as well.  :-)

We now return you to your regularly scheduled non-self-promotion.  :-)

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 10:46:13 EST
From:    Chuck Weckesser <71233.677@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: Chilling Einsatzgruppen Request, Read!

I have just come across what is known as a "primary" source document. This
document chronicles how chillingly the German einsatzgruppen units murdered Jews
and, typically German, a "request" to make their killing more efficient. I shall
quote the entire document, which is not that long. *ALL* comments would be
appreciated as to your reaction reading something like this:

WHAT FOLLOWS IS AN ACTUAL WAR DOCUMENT:

Berlin 5 June 1942
no copies

Secret Reich Matter
        1. Memorandum:
        Concerns: Mechanical modifications on special vehicles currently in use
or being manufactured:

        Since December 1941, 97,000 were "processed" (quotation marks are mine,
and not in the document) in three vehicles in an exemplary manner without any
problems concerning the equipment. However, the following modifications are
suggested.

        1. To expedite entry of gas, two additional vents of approximately 10 cm
x 1 cm are suggested, with valves to avoid excessive pressure.
        2. It is suggested that the freight area be reduced to lighten the load
capacity. The problem is not in the strength of the undercarriage but in the
truck's cross-country capability. This refers to the trucks built by Saurer. The
shorter freight area might be thought to cause a problem in overloading the
front axle. In fact, this does not apply, because the freight tends to shift to
the rear, trying to reach the rear doors.
        3. The connecting hoses between exhaust and truck have been rusting
through due to collected fluid. Their position should be moved.
        4. Modifications (scuppers) are needed to facilitate the washing out of
the trucks inside rear, cleansing it of fluids and other matter.
        5. The "observation" (quotes are mine) peepholes can be eliminated, since
they are rarely used. This should save problems of making them leakproof and
shorten "PRODUCTION TIME" (emphasis mine).
        6. Inside lights are to be better shielded from vandalism and
destruction. The lights are needed only for the first few minutes to avoid a
"rush" (my quote marks) toward the rear in the darkness when the doors are first
closed and the processing begins.
        7. A grid on rollers would be desirable to facilitate faster unloading.
The company we asked to build it thought it "impracticable" (emphasis mine). Can
another supplier be found?

        There are ten Sauer special vehicles now on order. May we have one
"prototype" (emphasis mine) with all the above modifications?

                                        Head of Group II D
                                <signed> SS Colonel Rauff
                                Request For Acknowledment

-----------------------------------
This document speaks for itself. I couldn't possibly add a thing.

I feel sick to my stomach.

Sincerely,

CJW

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 10:11:25 -0600
From:    Lou Coatney <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: German vs Soviet Military Quality (CPT Steve Eden)

Good post, Steve Eden!  (Something we can agree on!  :-)  )

     The Soviets' "homegrown version of mobile warfare" was, of
course, the fulfillment of (the purged) Marshal Tukhachevskii's
"deep battle" doctrines.  (See the excellent writings by COL
David Glantz and Richard Simpkins, a John Erickson protegee.)

     I will NEVER forget a game of PANZERBLITZ I had in 1972, in
the Augustana College (Illinois) library.  A friend and I combined
two sets of the game.  He was the Germans and set up first,
meticulously positioning his armor and anti-tank weapons along
every possible portal in the rugged to the sides, while sowing the
open center with mines, backed by some 88s.

     As the Vatutin-in-residence, I then lined up my armor and,
ignoring the "safe," covered-and-concealed flanks, RACED my massed
armor full-bore right down the center.

     I lost about 1/3 of my tanks to mines and the 88s, but that
left more than enough to envelope and annihilate him from the
rear.

     He was aghast.  To Westerners, ignoring a minefield would
have been contrary to "doctrine" and "the value of human life,"
I suppose.  However, I probably lost less in the long run, and
that was the FASTEST AND MOST DECISIVE PANZERBLITZ game of my
life!

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 10:29:34 -0600
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: INF: Italian, German troops in N. Africa

> Also, some Italian units were pretty good.  The arty
> put in a credible performance as a whole; the Bersiglieri regiments were
> about up to German/British/Commonwealth standards.
>
> ken koester
> maint2@ers.bitnet

Ken brings out a good point that many are quick to dismiss with jokes
like: whats the worlds smallest book - Itlian war heros.

There were a number of elite Italian units like the Battalion San
Marco, the Alpini, the Bersagelleri (sp?) and the German midget
submariners were trained by the Italian Navy.  The Italian Air Force
and Navy are all volunteer services and very professional compared to
the Army which is made up of draftees.

Still in all its true that the top scoring Italian ace in North
Africa was shot down and killed by his own anti-aircraft artillery
while trying to land at his own airstrip.  Don't recall hearing if
the gun crew was decorated for being the first to log a confirmed
kill..... :-)

Ciao, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 11:32:11 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: GEN: Concentration camps

My two cents on concentration camps:

I was at Dachau in the late 70's, and the crematoriums are still
standing.  It may not have been an "extermination" camp, ala
Auschwitz, but they were surely preparing to dispose of the
inmates who did not make it.

I personally don't see a whole lot of difference between Dachau
and Auschwitz.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-8760
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-8760

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 11:41:22 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: GEN:  U-Boats in American waters

A short story from my mother concerning German U-boats operating
off the East Coast of the US:

My mother lived in Pleasantville NJ, just outside of Atlantic
City, today's home of the casinos.  Atlantic City had their very
famous Boardwalk, remember Monopoly, and the merchants refused
to black out their emporiums.

Well, imagine you are a U-boat commander, and oil tankers are
moving up and down the coast from the refineries in the Gulf and
the South to New York, New England, and Canada for shipment to
England.  The tankers are silhouetted against the brightly lit
Boardwalk and New Jersey coast.  What a target!!  And since you,
the U-boat commander, are in the shadows of the ocean, the
tankers can't see you for the bright glare, and convoys are not
in operation, what a field day.  No wonder U-boat crews called
this "The Happy Time."

My mother remembers many a night seeing the explosions and fires
of merchant ships being torpedoed.  Yes, the U-boats were here!!!


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-8760
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-8760

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 10:22:00 LCL
From:    SCHERRER TIM A <SCHERRET.TRANSCOM@TRANSCOM.SAFB.AF.MIL>
Subject: Personalities:  Bill Winchell,

  This is the 14th time this has been sent, so I hope it makes oe I might
unsubscribe from life!!!!

Subject: Re: Bill Winchell, Waist Gunner
Date: Wed, 02 Mar 94 07:32
Return-Receipt-To: SCHERRET.TRANSCOM@transcom.safb.af.mil

Hi everybody---it's been a couple of days that have passed since I first
started trying to respond to this post---I've been learning a new e-mail
system on my Army Reserve annual training.

Several days ago someone said that then Sergeant Bill Winchell, of the
Memphis Belle was a ball turret  gunner.  I beg to differ.  In one of my
bedrooms I have hanging an autographed photo of him with the writing "Lt
Scherrer, Happy Landings, Lt Bill Winchell, Left Waist Gunner, Memphis
Belle".  I may have the left and right mixed up, but the rest I am
positive about.  He received a commission after he returned stateside.

I would look at it and tell you for sure which side he did gun on,
however I am 238 miles away from home.  When I get back, I can tell you
forsure.

Tim A. Scherrer
1LT, USAR

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 10:47:39 -0600
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: POL(?) South American involvement in WWII

>         Something for the list, I know what countries were at war
>          but during WW-II what was happening in South America????
>
>           I mean i dent remember hearing about George patton of brazil.
>         my real question is did life go on there as normal, or were
>         they affected by shortages and rationing also????
> I know paraguay or argentina was somewhat used by the nazi's
>         i think,,as a friendly port.... I have not run across anybooks
>        on this so I thought i would run this by you.
>
>             thanks bill

Hi Bill,

I saw a photograph in a 1944 issue of _Yank_ magazine that showed a
formation of soldiers from Brazil marching down a street in Naples.
I'll try to find it again and see if it accompanied an article but I
think Brazil did contribute a contingent of troops to fight Nazism.
They even have their own WWII victory medal as I recall.

US naval types were in South America flying anti-submarine patrols
too but I'm real fuzzy on the American Theater.  Somebody want to
jump in and bail me out???

cheers,  Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 12:11:06 -0500
From:    Bob Smart <bsmart@SMART.COM>
Subject: Re: Boring?

> > By the way, what does a B-26 go for?
>
> Today?  Well over $1.5 million.

Are there any flyable B-26s left? I don't mean the A-26/B-26 Invader but the
original Middle River prostitute

Bob Smart (bsmart@smart.com)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 11:16:42 CST
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Boring?

> > > By the way, what does a B-26 go for?
> >
> > Today?  Well over $1.5 million.
>
> Are there any flyable B-26s left? I don't mean the A-26/B-26 Invader but the
> original Middle River prostitute

"One and a half."

The CAF has Carolyn, a true B-26 and is currently flying.  It is the only
one that really _is_ flying.

Tallichet also has a B-26 which is currently up for sale.  It is flyABLE,
I guess, but needs work.  Many of his airplanes arrived in semi-flying
condition, but not all got the attention required to keep it that way.
This airplane has been in various stages of restoration and has every
opportunity to fly again.  What makes this one particular interesting is
that it is the _short wing_ original model.

Until you've stood under the wings of Carolyn, you can't even conceive
of a short wing B-26.  It's almost unfathomable to think that they
actually made a wing SHORTER than one that still looks like it couldn't
lift a helium balloon into the air... :-)

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 12:36:13 EST
From:    Ron Babuka <WRB@CORNELLC.BITNET>
Subject: Re: INF: Italian, German troops in N. Africa

On Italian fighting spirit - in the East African Theater - the Italians
who fought the British and Indian troops in Abyssinia and British
Somolia often fought bravely and with much skill.  While their equipment
was not up to snuff with the Allied forces, some units and officers
surprised the Allied forces with their fighting abilities.  The siege
of Keren cost the Allied forces nearly 5,000 casualties at Italian hands.


Ron Babuka

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 13:27:02 -0500
From:    "W. C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <ERCOUPE@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: POL(?) South American involvement in WWII

Ernest K. Gann's FATE IS THE HUNTER contains some little
vignettes about the military air transport service operating
out of Natal, Brazil on the southern Transatlantic run.  He
also has some interesting stories about flying in Brazil in
the days immediately before WWII when the War Department was
trying to coerce the South Americans into abandoning the
German equipment in favor of American Lodestars.  He has
a short section on how his plane was sabotaged.  And yet
another paragraph or two describing an American fighter
contingent guarding a bauxite mine somewhere in South
America.

Bill
N93774@vms.cis.pitt.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 13:33:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: POL: Brazil in WWII

Both Brazil and Mexico sent a fighter squadron equipped with P-47s to fight
with the Allies in WWII.  One squadron went to Italy and the second to the
Philippines; I think the Brazilians were in Italy but am open to negotiation.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 10:38:00 PST
From:    Stephen Fox <FOXS@AXE.HUMBOLDT.EDU>
Subject: Re: INF: Mines in Flanders

I've been following this topic with more than the usual interest.
My brother-in-law lives in Poperinghe, Belgium, which is smack
in the middle of the Flanders fighting area.  In fact, the British
had (still have!) an R & R house in the town, called the "Talbot House,"
which is an interesting visit itself.

Back to the mines.  The crater left behind by one of these explosions
is now a "shrine" in the area, called the "Pool of Peace."  It's
a small pond, but you get the idea when you realize it's man-made.

In 1974 we visited one of the many private plots where farmers
have opened up their property to tourism.  This was one advertised
as the "place" where Hitler earned his Iron Cross 2d Class.  Don't
recall any irrefutable proof of this, though.  More interesting is the "mine
shaft," quite well preserved, which descends 60-70 feet, and is just wide
enough to admit a man on a rope.  In order to discover tunneling opera-
tions, a man would be lowered (a German in this case) into the shaft,
armed only with a stethoscope to do the listening.  The farmer told
us that he had discovered the shaft while rabbit-hunting one day; the
rabbit disappeared down the hole, by then overgrown with vegetation
(maybe even briar bushes!).


Can share lots more about the problem of unexploded shells in this
region of Belgium if you are interested.  This "problem," however,
is dwarfed by the situation existing in the Verdun region of France
that has been discussed recently.


********************************************
*       Steve Fox                          *
*       History Department                 *
*       Humboldt State University          *
*       Arcata, CA  95521                  *
*       (707) 826-4788                     *
*       FAX: (707) 826-4496                *
*       FOXS@axe.humboldt.edu              *
********************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 13:19:39 EST
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: GAME: German vs Soviet Military Quality (CPT Steve Eden)

As this thread has changed direction, I have felt free to coin a new flag (-:

On Wed, 2 Mar 1994 10:11:25 -0600 Lou Coatney said:
>     I will NEVER forget a game of PANZERBLITZ I had in 1972, in
>the Augustana College (Illinois) library.  A friend and I combined
>two sets of the game.  He was the Germans and set up first,
>meticulously positioning his armor and anti-tank weapons along
>every possible portal in the rugged to the sides, while sowing the
>open center with mines, backed by some 88s.
>
>     As the Vatutin-in-residence, I then lined up my armor and,
>ignoring the "safe," covered-and-concealed flanks, RACED my massed
>armor full-bore right down the center.

Hmphf!  Obviously an amateur--mines need to be zeroed in by enough firepower
to create impassible terrain from the wrecks (-:  Now, *I* would have insured
that my AT weapons were sited to fire to the rear as well, covering the entire
board with an impenetrable curtain (-:

As long as we are reminiscing, tho, I played the computer a game of Kampfgruppe
a few years ago that was a perfect Kesselschlacht:  the Russians raced in
across open terrain towards a gap between two hills.  My spotters called in
a *perfect* TOT salvo that dusted the infantry off the tanks, the tanks
came behind the hills. . . and my AT and armor opened up on them from 360
degrees, scoring numerous hits on the flank and rear armor.  The computer
was game, rushing each of my positions in turn, but I wiped out several
regiments at the cost of about a company.

For that matter, the most perfect adaptation of Panzerblitz against humans
I ever played was a computer version on the Champaign-Urbana PLATO system
called PZK.  Simultaneous moves, limited spotting range, limited intelligence--
absolutely great stuff, made me give up on board tactical games.  I wound
up contributing 2 of the 12 published scenarios, too--one set in Dec. '41
at night, where the objective was to be sole possessor of a village (so
you didn't freeze to death), and one at dawn in '43, where the Russians
were raiding across a river & had to capture a supply dump & remove it to
their side again.

ken koester
maint2@ers.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 13:35:58 -0400
From:    HORNERJA%SDELVB@SNYBUFVA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU
Subject: B-26s

Thanks Robert, I'll take 2 B-26s please.  Will you accept my Visa? :->

John Horner
SUNY at Delhi, New York

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 12:38:00 LCL
From:    SCHERRER TIM A <SCHERRET.TRANSCOM@TRANSCOM.SAFB.AF.MIL>
Subject: Nost:  Teddy Bears

I went to Military Clothing Sales here at Scott AFB, and walked out with
the new model "Bear Force" Teddy bear.  The new one is a WWII Army Air
Force Aviator Bear.  He has brown shoes, khaki/pink pants, green shirt,
khaki tie, A-2 flyer's jacket, Green Crush cap, and Army Officer's
insignia.  The sales lady said that Ira Green, Inc., the manufacturer
just came out with them.  Mine cost $34.95 plus $.95 for the box.  I got
the only one they had at Scott AFB.  They are pretty cute, and a perfect
gift for the wife, girlfriend or daughter, (and yourself).  My girlfriend
was going to get a bear, but now she'll have to settle for an Army troll.

Tim A. Scherrer
1LT, USAR

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 12:53:18 -0600
From:    Lou Coatney <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Italians vs. British in East Africa:  "Best of Enemies"

An excellent film, starring David Niven, among others.

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 13:59:53 -0500
From:    Joshua Norton <NORTONJ@NORWICH.BITNET>
Subject: Re: POL: Brazil in WWII

        There was a Brazilian Expeditionary Force in Italy near the end of the
war at least.  At one point during the winter of 44-45 it was on 10th Mountain
Division's right flank.  It's in the Army Green Books.  I happened to be
checking out the 10th at the time and didn't really read much about the "BEF".

JPN

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 11:14:11 -0800
From:    Jim Benn <jrb@AGAVIION.AGFX.COM>
Subject: Re: Boring ("sixties" & "childish naivete")

>
> On pg. 24 in Michael Lyon's "WW2: A Short History" is the by-the-way fact that
>
> Germany actually profited from WW1. The American bankers Charles Dawes and Owen
>
> Young repaid Germany twice more in loans "to rebuild the German economy" than
>
> the  $33 bil. that Germany was originally required to pay in reparations to the
>
> Allies. -Peace to all who live- -Dylan Fierro  "Facts, son, plain facts."
>
My grandfather worked in the Hamburg shipyards in Germany until 1922 when
he came to America.  I remember his stories about the inflation which
followed WW1, and how he would need to take his pay and run to the
bakery, otherwise the week's wages might not be enough  to buy a few
loaves of bread.  He also hated the British, for how they came in and
stripped the shipyards of everything they could take.  He and many of his
friends left their homes and emigrated to the U.S. just to be able to
support their families.

As an aside, he also was associated with a Trotsyite revolutionary group,
and participated in the strike/mutiny which helped end the war.

In any case, he would have thought it amusing to hear Dylan's comment
that Germany profitted from the war.  I think this is an example of
taking an isolated fact out of context to support a political view of the
world.

It ain't that simple.


 *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*> Jim Benn  [jrb@agaviion.agfx.com] <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=*
 |-=[        Auto-Graphics, Inc.       ]=[      /~~)       /~~)           ]=-|
 |-=[        8 West Main Street        ]=[     (__(_UTO - (__/RAPHICS     ]=-|
 |-=[        Niantic, CT  06357        ]=[              .___/             ]=-|
 *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*>  PHONE: 800-733-6939 = FAX: 203-691-0183  <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=*

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 14:44:14 EST
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <hb9388@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: POL(?) South American involvement in WWII

Bill,

With regards to the Brazilian involvement in WW2:

The Brazilian Army contributed an infantry division to the cause;
and it fought in the Italian theater, most of the time under Mark
Clark and the 5th US Army.

Barry

Barrett F. Lowe               RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, West Point  (e-mail:  hb9388%usma6@trotter.usma.edu)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 11:48:37 -0800
From:    Jim Benn <jrb@AGAVIION.AGFX.COM>
Subject: Re: INF: Mines in Flanders

On Tue, 1 Mar 1994, Steve Alvin wrote:

> Probably the best known example of mine warfare in the US was
> the Battle of the Crater in Oct (?) 1864, when a Union mine
> was exploded under the CSA lines at Petersburg.  The resulting
> explosion was horrendus, but the Union was late in getting its
> assault underway.  By the time the a
> assault column waa in the crater, the Confederates had overcome
> their initial confusion to pour massive fire into the crate.
>
> Union losses were sever.

As  an aside (sorry to go so far afield from WWII, but Steve started it)
the main reason for the union failure at The Crater was a last minute
decision to replace the Black Union troops who has been specially trained
for the assault with a white formation.  The original troops had been
prepared for the noise, etc. which the explosion would produce, and had
been trained to fan out from the crater and take and hold a wide area for
other troops to pour through. The Union commanders thought thatthe plan
was too complicated for Black troops, and substituted an untrained unit.
Without preparation, they were stunned by the enormity of the explosion,
and grouped in the crater.  The Confederates ringed the crater, and I
guess had a turkey shoot.


 *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*> Jim Benn  [jrb@agaviion.agfx.com] <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=*
 |-=[        Auto-Graphics, Inc.       ]=[      /~~)       /~~)           ]=-|
 |-=[        8 West Main Street        ]=[     (__(_UTO - (__/RAPHICS     ]=-|
 |-=[        Niantic, CT  06357        ]=[              .___/             ]=-|
 *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*>  PHONE: 800-733-6939 = FAX: 203-691-0183  <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=*

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 16:06:19 EST
From:    Joseph Wolm <JW2827@ACSPR1.ACS.BROCKPORT.EDU>
Subject: Re: U boats

Hello
On the fact of South America I have a few things to say.
First of all South America was one of the hardest hit continents on the
planet by the depression and never recovered until after the war.
Each country in south America had different troubles but,
they almost all had one thing in common.
They all are dependent upon someone else for there economic survival.
When the ddepression hit the U.S. and Europe they stopped buying raw
goods from S.A.(South America) almost entirly.
Subsequently the governments of South America where nearly totaly unstable.
The people and governments ol many Latin American countries where too
busy dealing with there own problems to support (for thhe most part)
anybody else.
They may have been sympathetic many different causes.  Some of them even
with the NAZI'S.  But all in all South America had almost nothing to
give to anyone in support.
sincerly,
Joseph M. E. Wolm

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 14:47:56 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Chilling Einsatzgruppen Request, Read!

Please cite your _specific_ source for this document so that others can
examine the original source.

Thank you.

george bauer

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 15:51:59 -0600
From:    Lou Coatney <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: GERMAN EAGLE VS. RUSSIAN BEAR, 2d ed., now avail. on ERIC

OK, sports fans, get right over to your nearest university/
  research library.  The revised edition of my playable AND
  historical game is available on microfiche (only) for your
  perusal on the U.S. Govt.-sponsored Educational Resources
  Information Center (ERIC) collection.

The first edition was ED 287 786.  The second edition is
  ED 361 256.

I had submitted my own (suggested) abstract, but Fred Risinger's
  Social Studies Clearinghouse at Indiana University improved it
  considerably -- and I suffer editing not readily.

So, if you want an introductory "classic" boardgame on The
  Great Patriotic War on the Eastern Front in World War II, you
  know where to look at one.

Lou Coatney, 309-836-1447
  626 Western Ave.
  Macomb, IL  61455  USA

WARNING:  The microfiche for the new edition may not have been
  distributed yet.  :-)

ALSO:  This is an unassembled KIT.

Hjalmar Gerber, Kerry Anderson, Fred Baube, Richard Lechowich,
  What is your frankest opinion of the game?  (Assembly wasn't
  THAT bad, was it?  :-)  )

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 17:06:50 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: POL: Brazil in WWII

The South American nations also provided bases for sub-hunter groups. The
South Atlantic was patroled from these bases. Check "U.S. Naval Chronology
of WWII" at byrd for specific dates of establishment and locattions of bases.
When air units are credited with kills the operating base is named.

Larry J

JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 19:04:45 EST
From:    Kevin Brown <kevinb1350@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Where have all t...

Re:Days of John Paul Jones - I think the writer made a slight misquote.  I
believe the brochure actually says "the first foreign warship captured by the
USN on the high seas since the War of 1812".

The U-505 is a really good tour, as is the entire Museum of Science and
Industry.  As a point of personal interest I had an uncle in the USS Jenks,
one of the ships in the force that captured the U-505.

K.B.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 14:25:43 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: POL(?) South American involvement in WWII

>
> >         Something for the list, I know what countries were at war
> >          but during WW-II what was happening in South America????
> >
> >           I mean i dent remember hearing about George patton of brazil.
> >         my real question is did life go on there as normal, or were
> >         they affected by shortages and rationing also????
> > I know paraguay or argentina was somewhat used by the nazi's
> >         i think,,as a friendly port.... I have not run across anybooks
> >        on this so I thought i would run this by you.
> >
> >             thanks bill
>
> Hi Bill,
>
> I saw a photograph in a 1944 issue of _Yank_ magazine that showed a
> formation of soldiers from Brazil marching down a street in Naples.
> I'll try to find it again and see if it accompanied an article but I
> think Brazil did contribute a contingent of troops to fight Nazism.
> They even have their own WWII victory medal as I recall.

Both the Brazilians and Mexicans took part in WWII.  There was an article
a year or two ago about Mexican airforce participation in "Air International".

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 19:43:28 EST
From:    Kevin Brown <kevinb1350@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: U-Boats

<US ships refused to douse their lights
I have never heard of Merchant ships refusing to "darken ship".  The cities
and towns along the coast however resisted black outs for some time.  The
merchants were silhoutted(sp) against the light and made easy targets.
The Merchants DID however resist the convoy system as much as they could.  No
Captain likes to take orders from someone else, plus there is the danger of
collision, conflict of schedules, etc.
Also they pointed out there weren't enough USN ships to provide escort, so
why bother?  Of course convoys were instituted eventually and proved
effective.

K.B.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 02:31:57 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@NATS.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: TRV: Education...

Today the results of a study on public knowledge about WWII in Belgium
were published. Secondary school students were asked several questions
about WWII. Only 58% happened to know who was in power in Germany in 1944.
Even less could give the name of a concentration camp...

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 22:10:33 CST
From:    Steve Alvin <salvin@HEARTLAND.BRADLEY.EDU>
Subject: Re: POL: Brazil in WWII

The Brazilian 1 Grupo de Caca of the Brazilain Airforce and
equipped with P-47D-25-RE's was formed as the fourth squadron of
the 350th FG, the last P-47 group formed in the 12th Air Force.
They were initially based at Tarquinia, Italy.  They replaced the
"United States' star" in the roundel with a "Brazilain star" of
yellow, green, blue, and white.

--
Steve Alvin
salvin@heartland.bradley.edu

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 1 Mar 1994 to 2 Mar 1994
***********************************************

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There are 59 messages totalling 1927 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. U boats
  2. Addr: RE: Monty (2)
  3. POL(?) South American involvement in WWII (2)
  4. INF: Italian, German troops in N. Africa
  5. GEN: Re: Einsatz. document (2)
  6. INF: Mines in Flanders
  7. QUEST: FDR/Advance Knowledge of PH (7)
  8. Explosives (2)
  9. TRV: Education... (4)
 10. U-Boats (2)
 11. INF: USAAF 3 MAR 44
 12. GAME: German Eagle Vs. Russian Bear .. 1 (4)
 13. TAC: Re: Ardennes
 14. Ardennes (2)
 15. Off Limits Topics (8)
 16. GAME: RUSFront
 17. GAME: Any good FTP sites?
 18. MILHST-L@UKANSVM.BITNET (3)
 19. The 106th, the Ardennes, and a "friend" of von Manteuffel
 20. GAME: War in Russia (PC)
 21. The 106th, the Ardennes, and a friend of von
 22. Ben Olds flamed over Polesti
 23. The 106th, the Ardennes, and a "friend" of von Manteuff (2)
 24. Offline Mail Readers, HELP! :)
 25. Gen. Steiner: Defence of Berlin (3)
 26. QUEST: Sinking of the Indianapolis (2)
 27. Best Aredennes book (?)
 28. GEN: Concentration camps

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 21:22:44 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: U boats

For details about the stumble-bum Nazi agents who were landed (and
caught very quickly), read: THEY CAME TO BLOW UP AMERICA.
Incidentally, it was not "written by the FBI".

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 21:24:07 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Addr: RE: Monty

No, no. "He was willing to fight the war until the last American"
was said by *George Patton* !

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 21:26:08 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Addr: RE: Monty

*About* George Patton!
:-)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 21:54:56 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: POL(?) South American involvement in WWII

Mexico "joined" the Allies, in 1942, as I recall.
        However, their sole fighting contribution was to send two
squadrons of Mustang fighter planes to the South Pacific. How they
performed, I have no idea.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 21:58:13 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: POL(?) South American involvement in WWII

When news of Brazil joining the Allies was told to Hitler, he is said to
have roared with laughter, and hooted: "There will be Brazillian trooops
fighting me, when cobra's smoke pipes!"
        Sure enough, when the Brazillian troops landed in Italy, their
shoulder-flash had the design of a cobra smoking a pipe.
        Ever after, the Brazillians called themselves __ COBRAS FUMAS!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 2 Mar 1994 22:05:26 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: INF: Italian, German troops in N. Africa

The Italian Navy was generally first-class.
Particularly, their submarines and light coastal forces.
        Italian sub,arines were considered a particularly tough nut by
British aircraft. German subs always dived at sight of an enemy plane,
even in the med, where shallow water made a dave usually fatal.
On the other hand, Italian subs had a policy of always staying on the
surface to fight it out with attacking aircraft. The outcome was 50/50.
Brave men.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 01:28:48 CST
From:    Sly <mtlindem@MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU>
Subject: GEN: Re: Einsatz. document

Chuck Weckesser <71233.677@COMPUSERVE.COM> wrote:


>I have just come across what is known as a "primary" source document. This
>document chronicles how chillingly the German einsatzgruppen units murdered
>Jews and, typically German, a "request" to make their killing more
>efficient.  I shall quote the entire document, which is not that long. *ALL*
>comments would be appreciated as to your reaction reading something like this:

        Thanks.  Nice to know that as a German, I am the typical type
of efficient murderer.


*******************************************************************************
*       "Es gibt nicht viel Wissen, das Macht verschafft, aber es gibt viel   *
* Wissen, das nur durch Macht verschafft wird."  -Bertolt Brecht              *
********************Sly - mtlindem@midway.uchicago.edu*************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 08:14:31 GMT
From:    Stephen Baldwin <smb@NETMGRS.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: INF: Mines in Flanders

Hi Steve!
Thanks for your contributions...

>       Can share lots more about the problem of unexploded shells in this
>       region of Belgium if you are interested.  This "problem," however,
>       is dwarfed by the situation existing in the Verdun region of France
>       that has been discussed recently.
as far as I am concerned, keep talking. This is holding my attention
nicely!

steve baldwin
smb@netmgrs.co.uk

ps - ever been to Verdun?
I'm hoping to get to Flanders and Verdun eventually...

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 06:25:33 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN: Re: Einsatz. document

>
> Chuck Weckesser <71233.677@COMPUSERVE.COM> wrote:
>
>
> >I have just come across what is known as a "primary" source document. This
> >document chronicles how chillingly the German einsatzgruppen units murdered
> >Jews and, typically German, a "request" to make their killing more
> >efficient.  I shall quote the entire document, which is not that long. *ALL*
> >comments would be appreciated as to your reaction reading something like this:
>
>         Thanks.  Nice to know that as a German, I am the typical type
> of efficient murderer.
>

When I first read Chuck's posting I considered the "typically" to be in
reference to German efficiency, not German murder.

One of the reasons the Holocaust is officially "off-charter" (and also a
reason it's un-officially tolerated) is that the subject has such fierce
emotions attached to it. While we are able to discuss the events in a
rational manner we can continue the topic hear. When it turns into racial
characterization (or when ANY thread does so) it stops.

The posting falls under the category of "gentle reminder", with the other
end of the spectrum being "utter annihilation". What you do in private
e-mail is your business, what you do on the list is mine.

'Nuff said,
Larry J

JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 08:11:38 EST
From:    Chuck Weckesser <71233.677@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: QUEST: FDR/Advance Knowledge of PH

I am primarily interested in the European theater and thus know only the
"basics" regarding the Pacific theater. I have no doubt that my question has
already been asked long before I arrived, but I will ask other people for their
opinions nonetheless:

Did FDR deliberately sacrifice our boys at Pearl Harbor in order to defeat all
remanants of isolationism at home and enter the War. I ask because the American
people, in their fury, wanted the Japs punished, and quickly. But FDR quickly
adopted a "Europe first" policy that really did not make sense.

Meanwhile, Japan's "Greater Southeast Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere" or whatever the
hell they called it continued to grow unmolested.

Remember, if I recall correctly, our best ships were ordered put to sea just
days before Pearl Harbor and thus, were spared.

I think it's one of those questions that we will discover the answer to in about
50 years.

Regards,

Chuck

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 07:16:21 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Explosives

Hello, Christopher!

Here at the Amarillo Pantex plant, operations were begun last year,
November, 1993, to explode old warheads left over from WWII. The
Pantex plant here was a former ammunition plant that was converted to
nuclear weapons assembly in the 1950's.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 06:12:23 -0600
From:    Cheryl Bryant <muckb1@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: TRV: Education...

On Thu, 3 Mar 1994, Emmanuel Gustin wrote:

> Today the results of a study on public knowledge about WWII in Belgium
> were published. Secondary school students were asked several questions
> about WWII. Only 58% happened to know who was in power in Germany in 1944.
> Even less could give the name of a concentration camp...
>
> Emmanuel Gustin

Mr. Gustin,
        These statistics are frightening.  Having been educated in both
American and German schools I would be interested to know what the stats
are for these countries.  I know that the Germans would score higher than
the Americans.
        Does anyone out there on this list happen to know of similar
studies in the United States and/or Germany?

C.K. Bryant
************************************************
"The Riskier the road, the greater the profit."
        The 62nd Rule of Acquisition

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 08:59:34 EST
From:    Ron Babuka <WRB@CORNELLC.BITNET>
Subject: Re: U-Boats

> Also they pointed out there weren't enough USN ships to provide escort, so
> why bother?  Of course convoys were instituted eventually and proved
> effective.

Churchill wrote:

   The size of the sea is so vast that the difference between the size
of a convoy and the size of a single ship shrinks in comparsion almost to
insignificance. There was in fact very nearly as good a chance of a convoy
of forty ships in close order slipping unpercieved between the patrolling
U-Boats as there was for a single ship; and each time this happened,
forty ships escaped instead of one

Churchill, The World Crisis

Ron Babuka

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 08:47:43 -0600
From:    John Lundstrom <jl@CSD4.CSD.UWM.EDU>
Subject: Re: QUEST: FDR/Advance Knowledge of PH

The question of Pearl Harbor is one that generates more controversy than
understanding, but I'd like to offer my opinion:
        1) No one in the US knew Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked; the
blow was expected in the Far East; Pearl was considered relatively safe
because everyone greatly underestimated the power of the Japanese Navy,
especially their carriers
        2) Adm Kimmel hoped for a quick fleet action with the Japanese by
luring them out to battle near Wake (see Edward Miller's superb book War
Plan Orange for a superb analysis of Kimmel's battle plan).
        3) The absence of the carriers Enterprise and Lexington from Pearl
on 7 December 1941 were entirely fortuitous; their mission to deliver
aircraft to Wake and Midway were to facilitate Kimmel's battle plan, among
other things.
        4) The principal defect in US strategy was that everyone from FDR on
down refused to take the Japanese seriously and understand the real nature
of their threat in the Pacific.
                John Lundstrom jl@csd4.csd.uwm.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 09:39:08 EST
From:    Ron Babuka <WRB@CORNELLC.BITNET>
Subject: Re: QUEST: FDR/Advance Knowledge of PH

Chuck I would suggest you read Gordon Pranges "At Dawn we Slept" for
more insight into tthe Pearl Harbor raids.  Prange basically lays
fault on a large number of oversights and errors from the President,
to the Fourteenth Naval District, to the Hawaiian Department.

You are correct in that some our the most important ships used later
in the war were out to sea but you have to remember that in 1941 naval
thinking, the carrier still was secondary to the battlewagon.  In 1941
times, if FDR had wanted to pull out his most important ships he might
well have pulled out the battleships INSTEAD of the carriers (lucky he
didn't because those ships would not have been refloatable if caught
out at sea and then hit).  I can't imagine that FDR would want to sacrifice
the most important weapon (the fleet) in order to justify a declaration of war.

There are also claims that Churchill knew of the attack and did not say
anything in order to draw the US into the war.  I find this hard to believe
since the UK was cannibalizing its Pacific Fleet and its resources in
the east for its war against Germany.  A stong US fleet was the only thing
that many felt stopped the Japanese from marching into the weakened UK's
territories.   I can't imagine that Churchill
would want to be drawn into fighting in the east and face the fact that
America would need to reallocate resources towards rebuilding a Pacific
Fleet and towards fighting the Japanese.

Ron Babuka

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 16:02:09 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVS1.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: QUEST: FDR/Advance Knowledge of PH

On Thu, 3 Mar 1994, Chuck Weckesser wrote:

> Did FDR deliberately sacrifice our boys at Pearl Harbor in order to defeat all
> remanants of isolationism at home and enter the War.

Now this topic is really 'off-limits', but we will be allowed to discuss
it as long as we stay polite :-).

Probably the discussion is this will never end, but the mainstream answer
is: no. An attack on Pearl Harbour was not expected, and this despite the
numerous warnings before the war.  PH was considered by many to be well
defended and far away from the really dangerous areas; that's why the
local commanders neglected to take defensive measures, even when a 'war
warning' was issued by the USN. The Japanese attack and the succes of it
was a real surprise. In fact, it was more or less a surprise to the
Japanese too; they only did it because Yamamoto forcefully insisted ---
and they expected to lose half their carrier fleet in it.

One could argue that the FDR administration actively sought war with
Japan, by its harshness in negotations. The reality is that there was
nothing to negotiate: Japan wanted an empire in the Pacific, the US was
not going to allow that. Compromise impossible. The timing for creating a
conflict was really bad, however.

> I ask because the American
> people, in their fury, wanted the Japs punished, and quickly. But FDR quickly
> adopted a "Europe first" policy that really did not make sense.

On could defend the 'Europe first' policy on several grounds. To begin
with, Germany was a really dangerous enemy and Japan was not.  Despite its
aggressiveness and temporary succes, Japan was in fact a third-world
country with meagre industrial resources, a weak economy, and
technologically backward. The US could afford to wait with an attack on
Japan. And what's more, the US would have to wait anyway, until the
building program for the USN delivered the Essex-class carriers, the new
aircraft, and the other tools that made victory a certainity. Anyway, in
1942 the US did not yet have the army to fight one war, and certainly not
two.

> Meanwhile, Japan's "Greater Southeast Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere" or whatever the
> hell they called it continued to grow unmolested.

Not really. The growth of the Japanese 'Co-Prosperity Sphere' was
explosive, a series of quick successes about which nothing could really be
done --- the men and equipment were simply not there. After the first load
of Japanese victories the US concentrated on keeping the connections with
Australia open, with considerable succes.

> Remember, if I recall correctly, our best ships were ordered put to sea just
> days before Pearl Harbor and thus, were spared.

Yes, the carriers of the Pacific fleet were on sea. I wonder: Was it
really acknowledged by the USN in Dec. 1941 that these were the most
important ships? It always has been considered a coincidence. One was
simply ferrying aircraft, another was on excercise, I think.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 10:22:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: INF: USAAF 3 MAR 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
FRIDAY, 3 MARCH 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  Hurricane, Hawker (RAF)
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  Spitfire, Vickers Supermarine

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): In the Aleutian Islands, 9 B-24s take off from
Shemya Island to search for enemy shipping, but return due to heavy icing and
squalls; 6 P-40s fly a search mission between Shemya and halfway to Attu
Island; and HQ XI Bomber Command moves from Adak Island to Shemya Island.

  ZONE OF INTERIOR: President Franklin D Roosevelt announces that the Italian
Fleet will be divided equally among the US, UK and the USSR.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 22 B-25s, some supported by Royal
Air Force (RAF) Spitfires and Hurricanes, bomb the Ft White area; 10 B-25s
and 4 P-51s pound airfields at Katha, Mawlu and Shwebo; 12 B-25s and 8 P-51s
hit railroad targets and a warehouse at Kyaikthin and Kyunhla; 14 B-24s
covered by 22 P-40s hit airfields at Lashio, Hsenwi and Loiwing; 70+ P-40s,
A-36s, P-51s, and B-25s hit fuel storage, supply areas, roads, and other
targets over widespread areas of Burma, including Shingban, Myitkyina,
Zigyun, Mogaung, Manywet, and Washawng; 6 P-38s attack the Okshitpin bridge
but the target is not damaged.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): P-40s damage a coal grading building at
Campha Port, French Indochina.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 246: 555 B-17s and 193
B-24s are dispatched to industrial areas and aviation industry plants at
Berlin, Erkner and Oranienburg but deteriorating weather and dense contrails
force the formations to abort or seek targets of opportunity, i.e.:
  1. 9 of 555 B-17s are lost, 61 hit Wilhelmshaven and 14 hit targets of
opportunity; casualties are 2 KIA, 3 WIA and 83 MIA.
  3. 2 of 193 B-24s are lost and only 4 hit targets of opportunity;
casualties are 3 KIA, 8 WIA and 20 MIA.
  The bombers claim 3-1-1 Luftwaffe aircraft. Escort is provided by 89 P-38s,
484 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s and 130 Eighth and Ninth Air Force
P-51s; claim and loses are:
  1. 1 P-38 is lost and 1 damaged; 1 pilot is MIA.
  2. 1 P-47 is damaged beyond repair and 13 damaged; 1 pilot is WIA.
  3. P-51s claim 8-1-3 Luftwaffe aircraft; 6 P-51s are lost; 5 pilots are MIA.
  During a CARPETBAGGER mission on the night of 3/4 Mar, 2 B-24s are lost.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, 218 B-26s bomb airfields
at Laon/Couvron, Beauvais/Tille, Rosieres-en-Santerre, Roye/Amy and
Montdidier, and military installations at Juvincourt-et-Damary and
Berneval-le-Grand.
  Moves in England: HQ 434th Troop Carrier Group and 71st, 72d, 73d and 74th
Troop Carrier Squadrons from Fulbeck to Aldermaston with C-47s; HQ 436th
Troop Carrier Group and 80th, 81st and 82d Troop Carrier Squadrons from
Bottesford to Membury with C-47s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Around 200 B-17s and B-24s,
with 50+ P-47s as escort, hit targets in Italy; the B-17s hit the Rome,
Littorio and Tiburtina marshalling yards; the B-24s hit Canino landing ground
and Viterbo and Fabrica di Roma air depots; 80+ B-24s and 100+ P-38s abort
because of bad weather.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s bomb Rome/Ostiense
and railroad stations at San Benedetto de Marsi; weather cancels light and
other medium bomber operations; P-40s hit gun positions in the N Anzio
beachhead area while A-36s attack the train and tented area between Magliano
Romano and Rome; other P-40s fly patrol over the Anzio beachhead area.
  64th Fighter Squadron, 57th Fighter Group, moves from Amendola to Cercola,
Italy with P-40s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-24s out of Makin Island bomb
Ponape Island. B-25s from Tarawa Atoll, Gilbert Islands, hit Maloelap Atoll.
This date marks the beginning of Operation FORAGER, the capture of the S
Marianas Islands (Saipan, Tinian, and Guam Islands) for bases for B-29
strikes against Japan. Seventh Air Force aircraft maintain neutralization
strikes against airfields in the Caroline Islands and continue hitting Wake
Island and the bypassed Marshall Islands.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain island,
P-40s and US Navy (USN) fighters cover a USN dive bomber strike on Rabaul and
Simpson Harbor; 24 B-25s follow with an attack on Rabaul, which later in the
day is bombed by 20 B-24s. 5 P-38s bomb radar installations at Cape Saint
George on New Ireland Island, Admiralty Islands, while 10 bomb Buka Airfield,
Buka Island, Solomon Islands. P-39s hit targets of opportunity on the E part
of Shortland Island, Solomon Islands and the W part of Buka Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 30+ B-24s hit
the Hansa Bay and Alexishafen areas while 20 P-39s attack Madang and Bogadjim
and 22 A-20s pound Erima. 14 A-20s and B-25s hit enemy positions on Los
Negros Island.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 09:36:28 -0600
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: GAME: German Eagle Vs. Russian Bear .. 1

Lou writes:
> OK, sports fans, get right over to your nearest university/
>   research library.  The revised edition of my playable AND
>   historical game is available on microfiche (only) for your
>   perusal on the U.S. Govt.-sponsored Educational Resources
>   Information Center (ERIC) collection.

Thanks for the opening, Lou.  :-)

Speaking of games, did anyone download that rusfront.zip game from
byrd?  I tried to but it would not unzip properly.  I tried two
different versions of PKUNZIP with no luck.  Does byrd have the
correct version that I can use and if so where is it located?

Dazed and Confused, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 10:41:18 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: TRV: Education...

> Received: from MAILQUEUE by PCAD (Mercury 1.11); Thu, 3 Mar 94 7:24:06 GMT-6
> Return-path: <@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU:owner-wwii-l@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
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>  3 Mar 1994 08:20:27 -0500


Hello, Cheryl and Emmanuel!

Just a thought to add to your comment.
> Mr. Gustin,
>         These statistics are frightening.

    I absolutely agree. It is just indicative of the flaws occurring
in educational systems both here and abroad.


Having been educated in both
> American and German schools I would be interested to know what the stats
> are for these countries.  I know that the Germans would score higher than
> the Americans.

    I agree with that. I would think that Americans would come out on
the short end of any survey dealing with any intellectual subject
matter.

>         Does anyone out there on this list happen to know of similar
> studies in the United States and/or Germany?

    Wish I did, but you hear of teachers distributing surveys to
students to test their knowledge, and the results, as far as I have
seen and know of personally, show a dismal and disgraceful lack of
any knowledge dealing with the 1940's.

    Thanks, Cheryl.

    Terry



Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 10:59:42 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: QUEST: FDR/Advance Knowledge of PH

> Received: from MAILQUEUE by PCAD (Mercury 1.11); Thu, 3 Mar 94 7:27:55 GMT-6
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Hello, Chuck!

Will try to answer your questions.

> Did FDR deliberately sacrifice our boys at Pearl Harbor in order to defeat all
> remanants of isolationism at home and enter the War. I ask because the American
> people, in their fury, wanted the Japs punished, and quickly. But FDR quickly
> adopted a "Europe first" policy that really did not make sense.

    The answer to that is no. A book published in the 60's, I think,
took the approach, that FDR deliberately allowed PH to be bombed to
get us into the war. The book was called "Back Door to Pearl Harbor"
by Feis. It is tempting to take that approach, but according to
Gordon Prange's excellent book dealing with that subject and others,
BTW, there is no evidence which remotely suggests that FDR
deliberately sacrificed PH to get us into the war. Toland has gone on
record stating that FDR did have prior knowledge that it would be
bombed, as did General Marshall, but, as you know, many many things
occurred to prevent PH from being warned itself. Too many things
happened over too long a period to go into real detail on this. The
upshot was, we knew, that is to say, FDR, General Marshall, Admiral
Stark, etc., that PH would be bombed. The problem was discerning and
finding out precisely when and on what date.

The same was true on PH itself. PH was relying heavily on
communications from Washington that were never reliable, and the info
extant at the time was faulty in itself. By the time Washington could
even let PH know when it was to be bombed, it was too late to prevent
the attack, in fact, the telegram announcing the impending raid
arrived after the attack was already completed.

    The "Europe-first" policy was already decided upon well before
commencement of hostilities. In a war plan draft, that was eventually
accepted in 1940, had already designated Germany as the more serious
enemy and thus to be dealt with first. Admiral King wanted Japan
taken on first, because of his responsibility as CNO, and the fact
that the war against Japan would be primarily a naval war with ground
force support.

    Please read Albert C. Wedemeyer's book "A Soldier Reports". He
was instrumental in drawing up the scenarios involving the US in a
major war by 1940-1941. The plan had a name, but it slips my mind.
But, no, the decision to deal with Germany first had nothing to do
with PH being sacrificed to get us into war.


> Meanwhile, Japan's "Greater Southeast Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere" or whatever the
> hell they called it continued to grow unmolested.

    Up until 4 Jun 1942 with the advent of Midway. There and then it
was stopped and reversed beginning with the invasion of Guadalcanal
shortly after the battle of Midway. Midway was the turning point.
Coral Sea before that in May checked the Japs, but Midway saw the
beginning of the end for the Japs and their East Asia Co-Prosperity
Sphere.

> Remember, if I recall correctly, our best ships were ordered put to sea just
> days before Pearl Harbor and thus, were spared.

    No. The carriers had already taken to sea on maneuvers that had
already been scheduled. It had nothing to do with the impending
attack. They were, of course, spared, but not for the reasons your
statement implies.

    Please let me know if you have received this.

    Thanks.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 11:13:46 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: TAC: Re: Ardennes

> Received: from MAILQUEUE by PCAD (Mercury 1.11); Tue, 1 Mar 94 12:03:55 GMT-6
> Return-path: <@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU:owner-wwii-l@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
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>     Tue, 1 Mar 94 12:03:53 GMT-6
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>    with BSMTP id 1026; Tue, 01 Mar 94 13:00:05 EST
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>  UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9067; Tue,
>  1 Mar 1994 11:00:50 -0500


Hello, Stan!

Thanks for your reply. Will try to answer your question.

> Another question to consider:  why did units of the 106th
> Division abandon prepared positions?  Or did they?

    The 106th Division was not combat proven. It was a green outfit
that was placed in a "quiet" sector and the idea was to involve them
in combat gradually. They were completely overwhelmed at St.Vith, and
if they left prepared positions it was because they had no battle
experience and given the emotional climate at the time in the Bulge,
they felt justified.

  In the
> Korean War, it seems clear that the "rapid withdrawal" in the
> face of overwhelming numbers of Chinese troops was sound tactics,
> even if it looked suspiciously like a "rout".  But I don't know
> if it was in _Decision at St. Vith_, or _Death of a Division_,
> but the impression I had was that the 106th was just wandering
> around out there.

    Sounds like the former book.


    Please let me know if you received this message. I would
appreciate it very much. Also, please comment.

Thanks.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 11:32:23 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ardennes

Hello, Steve!

There was a mass surrender at St. Vith of the 106th Division led by
General Bruce Clark. The number was around 6000. They were simply
overwhelmed, and there wasn't much else to do. I think it was the
largest surrender since Bataan in WWII.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 12:38:39 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: QUEST: FDR/Advance Knowledge of PH

I personally know two researchers who are going through 30,000+ pages of
testimony and records regarding the Pearl Harbor debacle. After ten years
they still have no credible evidence that Roosevelt had foreknowledge of
the attack. (I will notify the list when they are ready to publish.)

The fundamental problem with Roosevelt "setting us up" for the attack is
that this was probably the worst possible way to get the U.S. involved
in the European war. I first started considering this question in 1964
and have read all the "expose" books I could find and none of them are
very satisfactory at makin even a thin case in the matter.  This is one
of the reasons I put this subject in the intro as "unwelcome". I've stretched
the rules to allow Holocaust discussion since "Schindler's List" has made
such a stir in the world, but just as I jumped on a potential flare-up
of acrimony, so will I limit conspiracy theories to lists devoted to them.
The traffic on factual matters is heavy enough without adding additional
items which, bottom-line, can't only be speculation.

Larry J

JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 12:42:37 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: GAME: German Eagle Vs. Russian Bear .. 1

>
> Lou writes:
> > OK, sports fans, get right over to your nearest university/
> >   research library.  The revised edition of my playable AND
> >   historical game is available on microfiche (only) for your
> >   perusal on the U.S. Govt.-sponsored Educational Resources
> >   Information Center (ERIC) collection.
>
> Thanks for the opening, Lou.  :-)
>
> Speaking of games, did anyone download that rusfront.zip game from
> byrd?  I tried to but it would not unzip properly.  I tried two
> different versions of PKUNZIP with no luck.  Does byrd have the
> correct version that I can use and if so where is it located?
>
> Dazed and Confused, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil
>
Try pkz204g.exe in the /pub/history/utils directory at byrd. I've uploaded
rusfront, tested it on Unix, downloaded it and tested it on my PC and
it seemed fine.

While we're on the topic, would a "simulations" directory be appropriate
for byrd? I have one or two other games that are fairly accurate and if
Lou's game can be archived we could add that (if there are no objections?)

Thoughts?

Larry J

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 11:41:27 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET>
Subject: Off Limits Topics

As a relatively new reader of this list, I have been consistently
impressed with the degree of scholarship provided by this list.  It is
by far the best list I have participated in.  (With occasional lapses,
of course.)

But I have questions about _topics_ that are off limits.

Would someone please expain to me what topics are off limits on this list,
and how such as list is created.

I can understand how certain _comments_ are inappropriate, because of their
tone or lack of scholarship.  But I am not sure what makes a
_topic_ _off limits_ to a scholarly discussion--unless of course it is
unrelated to WWII.

Help???

george bauer

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 12:50:16 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: TRV: Education...

It's interesting that the subject of knowledge of WWII should come up. I
have two children here, one in the 6th grade, one in the 11th. During the
first week of February the 6th grader's class was reading "Diary of Anne
Frank" and the other one was also doing WWII related work. Naturally the
attack on my library was akin to Barbarrosa, but I was impressed that the
subject got the time it did.

Maybe there's hope yet. (Maybe more if I ever graduate and get my teaching
certificate ;-).

Larry J

JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 13:17:48 -0500
From:    Steven VEST <vest@ALPHA.ACAST.NOVA.EDU>
Subject: Re: TRV: Education...

Emmanuel (and everyone):

     I don't know whether to be cheered that, in comparison, the American
Education system is only slightly more dismal or just be depressed that
historical ignorance is creeping around the globe.  They can't even whine
(as many of our students do) "Well it was a LONG time ago and it didn't
happen heeeeere."

==========================vest@alpha.acast.nova.ed===========================
= Steven Vest: Head, Off Campus Lib. Services: Nova University, Ft. Ldl, FL =
= Two broken tigers, on fire in the night, flicker their souls to the wind. =
=                                     Al Stewart--Past, Present and Future. =
===============No statements made here reflect Nova University===============

On Thu, 3 Mar 1994, Emmanuel Gustin wrote:

> Today the results of a study on public knowledge about WWII in Belgium
> were published. Secondary school students were asked several questions
> about WWII. Only 58% happened to know who was in power in Germany in 1944.
> Even less could give the name of a concentration camp...
>
> Emmanuel Gustin
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 18:30:50 GMT
From:    Stephen Baldwin <smb@NETMGRS.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Off Limits Topics

>       As a relatively new reader of this list, I have been consistently
>       impressed with the degree of scholarship provided by this list.  It is
>       by far the best list I have participated in.  (With occasional lapses,
>       of course.)
>
>       But I have questions about _topics_ that are off limits.
>
>       Would someone please expain to me what topics are off limits on this list,
>       and how such as list is created.
>
>       I can understand how certain _comments_ are inappropriate, because of their
>       tone or lack of scholarship.  But I am not sure what makes a
>       _topic_ _off limits_ to a scholarly discussion--unless of course it is
>       unrelated to WWII.
>
>       Help???
>
>       george bauer
As a follow-up to George's question, is WWI offlimits too? I have yet
to find a list dedicated to WWI and so have posted various bits&
pieces to MILHIST-L and WWII-L - since there are several relevant links
between the 2 wars. Ocassionally, as with the most excellent discussion
on ordnance on old battlefields (held under the auspices of WWII-L!)
, we have travelled round belgium
and France, through WWI and overto the USA for the civil war!

regards
steve baldwin
smb@netmgrs.co.uk

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 10:48:42 -0800
From:    Jim Benn <jrb@AGAVIION.AGFX.COM>
Subject: Re: GAME: RUSFront

>
> Speaking of games, did anyone download that rusfront.zip game from
> byrd?  I tried to but it would not unzip properly.  I tried two
> different versions of PKUNZIP with no luck.  Does byrd have the
> correct version that I can use and if so where is it located?
>
> Dazed and Confused, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil
>
Same here.  Any info on how to UNZIP it would be appreciated. :-(



 *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*> Jim Benn  [jrb@agaviion.agfx.com] <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=*
 |-=[        Auto-Graphics, Inc.       ]=[      /~~)       /~~)           ]=-|
 |-=[        8 West Main Street        ]=[     (__(_UTO - (__/RAPHICS     ]=-|
 |-=[        Niantic, CT  06357        ]=[              .___/             ]=-|
 *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*>  PHONE: 800-733-6939 = FAX: 203-691-0183  <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=*

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 13:55:49 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <kc5318@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ardennes

>Hello, Steve!
>
>There was a mass surrender at St. Vith of the 106th Division led by
>General Bruce Clark. The number was around 6000. They were simply
>overwhelmed, and there wasn't much else to do. I think it was the
>largest surrender since Bataan in WWII.
>
>Terry
>
>Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
>P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
>fax 806-371-5370


Terry,
After so many of your excellent posts, you should severely chastise yourself
for making a mistake with this one.(just kidding) The 106th was commanded by
Maj Gen Alan W. Jones, who has faded into well deserved obscurity.The surrender
of the bulk of the 106th happened in positions forward of St. Vith.  MG Jones
was there, but he abrogated his responsibilities to command most defenses to
Brig. Gen. Bruce Clarke of the 7th Armored Division, who became one of the
heroes of the Bulge.  Jones suffered a heart attack later in the battle.

                                                   Con

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 14:11:24 EST5EDT
From:    Jon Kay <JONKAY@MINMET.LAN.MCGILL.CA>
Subject: Re: GAME: Any good FTP sites?

Are there any good FTP sites that people know of for conflict
simulation games (preferably WWII)?




------------------------------------------------
above message from : JONKAY@MINMET.LAN.MCGILL.CA
------------------------------------------------

  "Oh, my God," Ignatius said, "you have powder all over your dress,
although that is probably one of Mrs. Battaglia's beauty hints."
  "Why are you always knocking Mrs. Battaglia, Ignatius?"
  "She appears to have been knocked a bit in her life already... Up
rather than down. If she ever nears me, however, the direction will
be reversed."

                            J.K. Toole, CONFEDERACY OF DUNCES

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 14:24:39 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Off Limits Topics

>
> As a relatively new reader of this list, I have been consistently
> impressed with the degree of scholarship provided by this list.  It is
> by far the best list I have participated in.  (With occasional lapses,
> of course.)
>
> But I have questions about _topics_ that are off limits.

  Off limit topics are listed in the intro. To date we have two, the
Holocaust and FDR's foreknowledge of the attack on Pearl Harbor.
The Holocaust was added to discourage the Neo-Nazi revistionists from
flooding the group with pseudo-documentation of their claims regarding
the events. The FDR thread is on the list for two reasons: 1. Every
piece of "evidence" regarding FDR's awareness of the attack lacks validity,
and 2. I'm sick of it.

  ALL of the Congressional testimony into the events prior to and immediately
after the attack will be available in electronic format within 24 months.
The people in charge of this project lurk on this list and have given me
permission to let that particular cat out of the bag.

> Would someone please expain to me what topics are off limits on this list,

  See above.

> and how such as list is created.

  I create the list. I'll entertain additions upon request, and make excep-
tions as appropriate.
>
> I can understand how certain _comments_ are inappropriate, because of their
> tone or lack of scholarship.  But I am not sure what makes a
> _topic_ _off limits_ to a scholarly discussion--unless of course it is
> unrelated to WWII.

  It's a matter of what I call "loading". Some topics take up so much "space"
that nothing else comes through. A dedicated list to the Holocaust already
exists. One for the FDR-PH thread could be started and have heavy traffic.
Allowing those two topics to monoplize a list dedicated to the whole war
would be a misrepresentation of the purposes of this list. I occasionally
watch a "what-if" thread start up here and when it gets too wild and hairy
I quietly ask the main proponents to take it private. Others, those I know
from the experience of running this list for years will get out of control,
I stifle from the start. I'm not saying these subjects can't be discussed,
I simply stating "not here". I don't consider it unreasonable that in a
war that affected the lives of nearly a billion people, directly or
indirectly, two out of the main possible topics of discussion are not
welcome.

To answer another question, "Which topics are OK?", I ask you to make one
judgement, "Is this relevant to WWII?" If your subject doesn't relate to
WWII I would ask you to find another forum for it. When in doubt, feel
free to e-mail me.

BTW, for WWI discussion, try MilHst-L@ukans.bitnet (I think I got the
address right.)

Larry J

JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 14:50:26 EST
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <hb9388@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: GAME: German Eagle Vs. Russian Bear .. 1

>Lou writes:
>> OK, sports fans, get right over to your nearest university/
>>   research library.  The revised edition of my playable AND
>>   historical game is available on microfiche (only) for your
>>   perusal on the U.S. Govt.-sponsored Educational Resources
>>   Information Center (ERIC) collection.
>
>Thanks for the opening, Lou.  :-)
>
>Speaking of games, did anyone download that rusfront.zip game from
>byrd?  I tried to but it would not unzip properly.  I tried two
>different versions of PKUNZIP with no luck.  Does byrd have the
>correct version that I can use and if so where is it located?
>
>Dazed and Confused, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil
>

Bill,

My pkunzip worked.  It's pretty good.  It's three scenarios from Panzerblitz.

Barry

Barrett F. Lowe               RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, West Point  (e-mail:  hb9388%usma6@trotter.usma.edu)

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 14:34:31 -0600
From:    Lou Coatney <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: MILHST-L@UKANSVM.BITNET

I think there's a "vm" in there, somewhere, Larry.

Lou

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 14:32:44 -0600
From:    Lou Coatney <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: The 106th, the Ardennes, and a "friend" of von Manteuffel

I hesitated to respond, assuming someone else would, re:
  Clarke vs. Jones.  I believe Jones had a son in combat, as
  well.

Considering its vulnerable position and the poor planning at
  corps level for a plausible eventuality like "Wacht am
  Rhein," the 106th did as well as could be expected.

Did anyone see the Bruce Clarke & Hasso von Mellenthin 2-part
  "Big Picture" coverage of the Bulge?  It was funny:  Here's
  big Bruce Clarke standing there with diminuitive Hasso
  standing on a tree stump to be at eye level with him for the
  camera!

Egon Weiss, former head of the West Point Library told me that
  he had been an Intelligence & Reconnaisance platoon leader
  (on OUR side -- he was an Austrian emigree --) in the Ardennes
  on the eve of the attack.

He had repeatedly warned of the presence of the elite Panzer
  and SS units building up on the other side of the Our, but
  had (like Major Soltis(sp?)) been ignored.

When the attack hit, his people were "retrograding" like everyone
  else.  He and (the remnants of) his people were in the upstairs
  of a house in Houffalize -- north of Bastogne -- when they
  heard BIG engines on the streets below.  Weiss peered out to
  see GERMAN tanks, SPs, etc. right below his window!

The tanks stopped, and who does he identify (from intelligence
  photos) in one of the turrets but Hasso himself!  Weiss
  lined up vM in his M-1 Garand sights at less than 30 meters.
  He decided not to get his men (and the Belgian family)
  massacred, and did not pull the trigger.

Years after the war, vM came to West Point to lecture.  At the
  following reception, Weiss walked up to vM and "re-introduced"
  himself.  vM couldn't remember him, of course, so Weiss
  explained the circumstances.  They became VERY good friends.

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 14:48:37 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Explosives

> Received: from MAILQUEUE by PCAD (Mercury 1.11); Mon, 28 Feb 94 7:31:41 GMT-6
> Return-path: <@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU:owner-wwii-l@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
> Received: from UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu by PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU (Mercury 1.11);


Hello, Jack!

I guess you saw my post on what is going on here in Amarillo. I was
wondering if you had received my messages dealing with the fighter
units employed on May 13 1944 on a raid on Poznan or Posen as the
Germans called it. Would appreciate a response on this.

Your post is most interesting.


Thanks.

Terry

---------------------------------------------------------------------

> Raritan Arsenal was built in what is now Edison, New Jersey during World
> War I.  It functioned as an Army arsenal during WWI, WWII, Korea and Vietnam.
> In the '70s or 80s it was closed and most of the land was sold to developers;
> Middlesex County College was also built on the land.  Unfortunately, the
> Army never got around to clearing the land and now they have to go in and
> retrieve numerous shells, some dating back to WWI.  There are even rumors
> that poison gas shells were buried there.  My wife works for a company that
> located in what is now called Raritan Center and she tells of hearing
> explosions all the time as shells are collected and then exploded.
> Fortunately, the rumors about poison gas shells have not been proven, YET!
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> |  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
> |  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
> |  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
> |  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 20:48:16 GMT
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <gummihe@ISMENNT.IS>
Subject: GAME: War in Russia (PC)

        Hey all

        I have here a PC based game called War In Russia that I think
you guys might enjoy. It is a board-like setup game that takes place
from June 22 1941 on the Eastern Front and either ends in Berlin
several years later or as in my case somewhere east of Moscow :)
        This one seams very advanced (it is the advanced version of a
game called Second Front of 91 or so) and has a lot of variables. The
computer has some AI and on my machine is not that easy to win (PC based
486/66, 16MB RAM).
        I played it not for land but to maul the Russians, especially
the tank armies and then when they were gone I was pretty safe for a bit
while they tried to rebuilt another force.
        I won the war for Hitler (in the east that it) in Nov 1941 +:)

This is commercial game but I dont know the US price for it

bye all



Gudmundur J. Helgason

E-mail:    gummihe@ismennt.is

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 16:06:51 EST
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <hb9388@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: The 106th, the Ardennes, and a friend of von

Lou,

Good story. Thanks for sharing it.

Bear



>I hesitated to respond, assuming someone else would, re:
>  Clarke vs. Jones.  I believe Jones had a son in combat, as
>  well.
>
>Considering its vulnerable position and the poor planning at
>  corps level for a plausible eventuality like "Wacht am
>  Rhein," the 106th did as well as could be expected.
>
>Did anyone see the Bruce Clarke & Hasso von Mellenthin 2-part
>  "Big Picture" coverage of the Bulge?  It was funny:  Here's
>  big Bruce Clarke standing there with diminuitive Hasso
>  standing on a tree stump to be at eye level with him for the
>  camera!
>
>Egon Weiss, former head of the West Point Library told me that
>  he had been an Intelligence & Reconnaisance platoon leader
>  (on OUR side -- he was an Austrian emigree --) in the Ardennes
>  on the eve of the attack.
>
>He had repeatedly warned of the presence of the elite Panzer
>  and SS units building up on the other side of the Our, but
>  had (like Major Soltis(sp?)) been ignored.
>
>When the attack hit, his people were "retrograding" like everyone
>  else.  He and (the remnants of) his people were in the upstairs
>  of a house in Houffalize -- north of Bastogne -- when they
>  heard BIG engines on the streets below.  Weiss peered out to
>  see GERMAN tanks, SPs, etc. right below his window!
>
>The tanks stopped, and who does he identify (from intelligence
>  photos) in one of the turrets but Hasso himself!  Weiss
>  lined up vM in his M-1 Garand sights at less than 30 meters.
>  He decided not to get his men (and the Belgian family)
>  massacred, and did not pull the trigger.
>
>Years after the war, vM came to West Point to lecture.  At the
>  following reception, Weiss walked up to vM and "re-introduced"
>  himself.  vM couldn't remember him, of course, so Weiss
>  explained the circumstances.  They became VERY good friends.
>
>Lou Coatney, WIU

Barrett F. Lowe               RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, West Point  (e-mail:  hb9388%usma6@trotter.usma.edu)

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 15:04:55 CST
From:    jesse carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject: Ben Olds flamed over Polesti

Dear All ;

My uncle was Ben Olds from a wealthy oil family in Oklahoma.
He died 9-10 years before I was born.  He, according to my adopted dad, was
apparently a fighter pilot during WW2.
However he was killed by the Germans and I do not know if it was FLAK or, say
a Me-109 or FW, etc.
I DO know that he was killed over Polesti in one of the raids on the oil
refinery.

Could someone refer me to some source by which I could obtain more info. on
this?  Like which AAF unit was he part of, when the specific mish took place,
and so forth.

Even a little direction would help.

Thanx!

Jesse Carnes
notjic@lsuvm.sncc.lsu.edu
Baton Rouge, LA

PS, my home tel. no. is (504) 383-8134
------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 16:23:00 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: MILHST-L@UKANSVM.BITNET

>
> I think there's a "vm" in there, somewhere, Larry.
>
> Lou
>

Here's one of the listowners' address, ask him for more details ;-).


Pat Hughes <@VM.CC.PURDUE.EDU:JPHUGHES@UKANVM>


Larry J

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 15:33:47 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: The 106th, the Ardennes, and a "friend" of von Manteuff

> Received: from MAILQUEUE by PCAD (Mercury 1.11); Thu, 3 Mar 94 14:40:44 GMT-6
> Return-path: <@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU:owner-wwii-l@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
> Received: from UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu by PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU (Mercury 1.11);
>     Thu, 3 Mar 94 14:40:39 GMT-6
> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU by UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2)
>    with BSMTP id 3199; Thu, 03 Mar 94 15:37:27 EST
> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@UBVM) by
>  UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6893; Thu,
>  3 Mar 1994 15:37:25 -0500


Hello, Lou!

Great post and very informative. Your heading is correct but you
mistakenly use the name of von Mellenthin rather than von Manteuffel
below.

> Considering its vulnerable position and the poor planning at
>   corps level for a plausible eventuality like "Wacht am
>   Rhein," the 106th did as well as could be expected.
>
> Did anyone see the Bruce Clarke & Hasso von Mellenthin 2-part
>   "Big Picture" coverage of the Bulge?  It was funny:  Here's
>   big Bruce Clarke standing there with diminuitive Hasso
>   standing on a tree stump to be at eye level with him for the
>   camera!

    Yes, I did many years ago. I really wish there was some way to
acquire that series on video cassette. That series is the best visual
record the army has ever produced on the war.


 > He had repeatedly warned of the presence of the elite Panzer
>   and SS units building up on the other side of the Our, but
>   had (like Major Soltis(sp?)) been ignored.

   I think you hit the crux of the problem here with the Bulge.
   It was an intelligence failure, and many in command failed to
appreciate the intelligence that was available.

    > The tanks stopped, and who does he identify (from intelligence
>   photos) in one of the turrets but Hasso himself!  Weiss
>   lined up vM in his M-1 Garand sights at less than 30 meters.
>   He decided not to get his men (and the Belgian family)
>   massacred, and did not pull the trigger.

    Most interesting!


    One more thing. Why didn't you stay in the army? I take it you
graduated from West Point. Just curious.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 17:03:05 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: MILHST-L@UKANSVM.BITNET

> >
> > I think there's a "vm" in there, somewhere, Larry.
> > Lou
> >
> Here's one of the listowners' address, ask him for more details ;-).
> Pat Hughes <@VM.CC.PURDUE.EDU:JPHUGHES@UKANVM>
>
> Larry J
>
Sorry, fell into "wizard" mode there. For those not familiar with Bitnet
addressing, you should send mail to:

JPHUGHES@UKANVM.bitnet

(I need to keep reminding myself of the times when I couldn't figure out
my OWN address ;-).

Larry J

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 22:09:10 GMT
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <gummihe@ISMENNT.IS>
Subject: Offline Mail Readers, HELP! :)

Hey all

        How do I use OffLine Mail Readers? I have several that I dont
know how to set up, any ideas? I think it is mainly the Unix server side
that is confusing me, seems I have to make some packege file that I'd
then download and feed my OS/2 reader

        any help would be appreciated :)

Thanks



Gudmundur J. Helgason

E-mail:    gummihe@ismennt.is

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 16:36:23 EST
From:    Chuck Weckesser <71233.677@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: Gen. Steiner: Defence of Berlin

I have recently finished an excellent book which deals strictly with the
"defence" of Berlin in April, 1945. One of the main "characters" for lack of a
better word is an SS General named Steiner.

Problem is that *before* reading this book, I had never heard of a "General
Steiner" and apparently, Hitler attached a great deal of hope on Steiner pulling
the fat out of the fire even though Field Marshall Henricci, who replaced
Guderian, was nominally in charge.

Can anyone else provide me with more *pre 1945* information on this very
interesting General Steiner? Unfortunately, the book does not discuss any
contributions he may have made prior to the defence of Berlin.

Kind Regards,

Chuck

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 17:11:52 EST
From:    Chuck Weckesser <71233.677@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: QUEST: Sinking of the Indianapolis

Recently, I saw a re-run on my satellite of a network film starring Richard
Thomas (Walton's) dealing with our greatest Naval loss ever, the sinking of the
Indianapolis by two Kaiten torpedos in July 1945 just after dropping off
extremely important cargo (the A-bomb).

I was absolutely horrified by two things. Could someone familar with how the
Navy works please explain. It would seem to me that "zig-zagging" or not, the
ship still would have sunk.

Why was Capt. McVay (sp?) made into a scapegoat by the Chief of Naval
Operations????? It wasn't his fault!!!!!!!! Captain McVay later killed himself -
actually, much later, say, around 1969 or so.

Second, I was *HORRIFIED* that during his court-martial the Navy would have the
unmitigated gall and audacity to besmirch the good name of Captain McVay based
on the testimony of the Jap submarine commander!!

I consider that nothing short of utter blasphemy. Maybe I'm overreacting here. I
don't know. But to bring this horrible miscretant from Tokyeo to testify against
one of our boys makes me absolutely ill. The very thought of it!

As it turns out, Capt. McVay was not warned that subs were operating in the
Leyote area. He did nothing wrong from what I can see and he was later pardoned
(I think).

Can anyone else shed some more details here? Why would the Navy try to trash
this man? Also, is it true that the Indianapolis was considered the "flag" ship
of the fleet? Is it true that FDR and Churchill once met on this ship?

Thanks for any info.

Kind Regards,

Chuck

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 14:44:47 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Off Limits Topics

I share your regrets there is little if any discussion of the First World War
on this list.
'Could be that simply isn't much considered an "American war", and many
contributors here prefer WW2 as a topic.
Virtually no discussion of any *other* conflict, come to think of it.
Not even about, say The Philippine Insurrection, Marines in Haiti (1915),
the Boer War, Boxer Rebellion, Crimea, Rorke'sDrift..... one could go on
for a while, indeed, about the choice of discussions.
'Just doesn't seem to be much interest in a wider wonderful world of
warfare...

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 16:53:14 -0600
From:    Roger Pinkston <rudiger@OCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject: Re: GAME: German Eagle Vs. Russian Bear .. 1

Where can I find this game? Every one is talking about it. Where can I
FTP it from?

Thanks,

Roger Pinkston

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 15:06:08 PST
From:    Alan Hepburn <alan@BERLIOZ.NSC.COM>
Subject: Re: Off Limits Topics

All this lamenting about the lack of discussion of wars other
than WWII is somewhat disturbing.  After all, this list is
dedicated to the discussion of WWII, not war in genaral.  If
people want to discuss other wars, then they should start another
list.  Do you go to a list dedicated to discussing firearms and
lament the lack of discussion of shovels?

---

Alan Hepburn            "Freedom is increasingly defined as the accumulation
National Semiconductor   of rights and entitlements, and as a license for any
Santa Clara, Ca          form of self-gratification."
alan@berlioz.nsc.com                                       Zbigniew Brzezinski

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 15:21:23 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Gen. Steiner: Defence of Berlin

Gen Steiner was just another one put in charge of the no-win job of
defending Berlin.
When events prevented Steiner from doing all that Hitler expected, Der
Fuhrer said, "Steiner has failed to move a single man to attack the Rusians
at Eberswalde... the war is lost".

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 15:36:51 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Off Limits Topics

You are right. of course, in pointing out this is a WW2 list.
Still, it needn't be considered all that "disturbing" that people comment
about other wars. Fair comment, after all. And we all admire fair comment,
don't we?

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 00:33:18 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVS1.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: Gen. Steiner: Defence of Berlin

On Thu, 3 Mar 1994, Chuck Weckesser wrote:

> Problem is that *before* reading this book, I had never heard of a "General
> Steiner" and apparently, Hitler attached a great deal of hope on Steiner pulling
> the fat out of the fire even though Field Marshall Henricci, who replaced
> Guderian, was nominally in charge.

Heinrici did not replace chief of staff Guderian; when Guderian was sent
away to look after his health he was replaced by Krebs. Heinrici
commanded the armies, or what was left of them, at the Oder. Steiner led
a disorganized group, probably created by collecting survivors of other
units. He had few men and little armament. That he was so important in
the mind of Hitler says more about the latter's mental health than about
anything else...

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 15:44:18 -0800
From:    "Office TH325, Extension 3566" <RIEGSECKER@UPS.EDU>
Subject: Re: QUEST: Sinking of the Indianapolis

Chuck,

Parts deleted

>Recently, I saw a re-run on my satellite of a network film starring Richard
>Thomas (Walton's) dealing with our greatest Naval loss ever, the sinking of the
>Indianapolis by two Kaiten torpedos in July 1945 just after dropping off
>extremely important cargo (the A-bomb).
>

Kaiten torpedos were human-manned (suicide) torpedos.  I-58, the sub
that sank her, was a kaiten-carrier sub, but she used regular torpedos to
sink Indianapolis

>
>Second, I was *HORRIFIED* that during his court-martial the Navy would have the
>unmitigated gall and audacity to besmirch the good name of Captain McVay based
>on the testimony of the Jap submarine commander!!
>
>I consider that nothing short of utter blasphemy. Maybe I'm overreacting here. I
>don't know. But to bring this horrible miscretant from Tokyeo to testify against
>one of our boys makes me absolutely ill. The very thought of it!
>

Miscretant? Do you mean miscreant?  My dictionary defines that as one
who behaves badly or criminally.  How does that apply to this sub
skipper?  The war was not over you know.

>Can anyone else shed some more details here? Why would the Navy try to trash
>this man? Also, is it true that the Indianapolis was considered the "flag" ship
>of the fleet? Is it true that FDR and Churchill once met on this ship?

Indianopolis was Spruance's flag ship when he commanded the 5th
fleet (which became 3rd fleet under Halsey).  If I remember correctly
Spruance was from Indiana.  I don't know about Churchill, but FDR was on
her in the 30's.

John Riegsecker
Riegsecker@ups.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 18:06:49 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Off Limits Topics

I guess I was trying to separate out the requirement of respectable
scholarship with the personal views of the _owner_ of the list.
Maybe the word _owner_ when applied to a list is what is throwing me...
I have seen moderated and unmoderated, but I'm not sure I have run into
_owner_ before.

But I am a new user and fast learner...

george bauer

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 18:32:28 -0600
From:    Lou Coatney <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: The 106th, the Ardennes, and a "friend" of von Manteuff

Terry,

     One reason for the successful surprise in the Ardennes,
of course, was that Hitler didn't (have to) use ULTRA.  Thus,
SHAEF's principle and most credible intelligence source gave
no clue to the impending avalanche.

     I resigned from the Academy after New Cadet "Beast"
Barracks and one academic semester.  Her name was Sylvia,
a winsome little Swedish-Danish nymph who put me back
together again in the Summer of '65.  (Remember the song?
That's EXACTLY the way it was.)

     Incidentally, I note in the CHRONICLE that West Point
is looking for a poly sci prof.  Bear?  Con?  Is the
Academy starting to hire civilian faculty now?

     As a cadet, I was a tie-up.  I would have probably
gotten 40 kids and myself killed quickly in VN.  I occasionally
wonder what it would have been like if I had stayed in (and
survived), but (as you know) I can be fairly impolitic and
suspect my career would have been accordingly short.  :-)

Lou

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 16:08:41 +0000
From:    John Behrens <jbehrens@DHM.COM>
Subject: Re: QUEST: FDR/Advance Knowledge of PH

I realize that this is an unwelcome topic, but seeing it reminds me of a
book I read in high school called The Paladin.

It was about a young boy that happened to grow up in a country cottage
that was close to the country home of Winston Churchill.  Appearently,
during the war, this boy did a lot of behind the lines work for
Churchill.  One of these jobs was to be flown half way around the world
and dropped into the Pacific to rendezvous with a Brittish sub.  His
stated job was to install new tips on the torpedos.  In reallity he was
installing time bombs that blew up the sub right after they dropped him
off.  The reason for this mission was because appearently the sub had
spotted a large Japanese armada steaming its way toward Hawaii in late
November early December 1941.  This sub had radioed this information
numerous times, being stalled each time.  Churchill decided, or was
advised, to blow up the sub so there was no way the information could be
given to the Americans.  The allies needed America in the war if there
was any chance of winning it.  He knew that a blatant attack by the
Japanese against the U.S. would do this and get the public behind the war
effort.

The book is appearently based on a true story.  How much of it is true, I
have no idea.  The boy was involved in other big areas like Belgium right
before the invasion.  North Africa right before the invasion, etc.
Regardless of fact or fiction, it was a good book and facinating read.

Now that I have broached the subject, would any of you full time
historians care to coment on this information.  I am curious if it is
true, and, if so, how much.

                                John

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 18:46:31 -0600
From:    Lou Coatney <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Best Aredennes book (?)

Incidentally, the best introductory book -- I think -- is
  John Toland's BATTLE.  You can see/feel the huge Tigers and
  Panthers sneaking through the pines.

Lou Coatney, WIU Library (until 30 Jun 94)

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 19:31:25 -0600
From:    Cheryl Bryant <muckb1@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN: Concentration camps

On Wed, 2 Mar 1994, James E Irwin wrote:

> My two cents on concentration camps:
>
> I was at Dachau in the late 70's, and the crematoriums are still
> standing.  It may not have been an "extermination" camp, ala
> Auschwitz, but they were surely preparing to dispose of the
> inmates who did not make it.
>
> I personally don't see a whole lot of difference between Dachau
> and Auschwitz.
__________________________________________________________________

Mr. Irwin,
  I went to the Konzentrationslager Dachau this past summer and I am sure
that little has changed since you visited it in the 1970s.  The
crematorium is still there and the musium still tells the story of Dachau.

  I am not sure how many people lost their lives at Auschwitz, but I do
know that from 1933-1945 the total Confirmed death toll was 31,591.  No
one knows how many people died in transport to or from Dachau.  There
were a total of 206,206 prisoners held in Dachau between 1933 and 1945.

The Prisoner Count of Dachau by Years:

1933     4,821
1934     1,990
1935     2,111
1936     2,323
1937     2,015
1938    18,681
1939     3,932
1940    22,675
1941     6,135
1942    12,572
1943    19,358
1944    78,635
1945    30,958
Total   206,206

You might also be interested in knowing the nationalities of the
prisoners held in Dachau between 1940-1945.

 1. Albanian            44      20. Letten (I don't know trans.)  230
 2. Americans           11      21. Lithuanian                  3,250
 3. Arabs                3      22. Luxemburg                     211
 4. Armanian             4      23. Norwegian                      77
 5. Belgian            989      24. Iranian                         1
 6. Bulgarian           54      25. Polish                     14,994
 7. Chinese              2      26. Portugese                       8
 8. Danish               1      27. Romanian                       69
 9. German *         6,118      28. Russian                    13,536
10. English             13      29. Swedish                         7
11. Esten (no trans.)    5      30. Swiss                          12
12. Finnish              1      31. Serbian                       516
13. French           5,706      32. Slovak                        244
14. Greek              338      33. Slovanian (?)               1,746
15. Dutch              836      34. Spanish                       286
16. Italian          3,388      35. Czech                       1,974
17. Japanese             1      36. Turkish                        86
18. Canadian             1      37. Hungarian                  12,067
19. Kroation           818      38. No Country                     17

        * Austrians were counted as German.

Sorry that I could not translate some of the countries.  I do not know
them in English.
__________________________________
Bibliography

Distel, Barbara.  _Konzentrationslager Dachau_. Haerne, Bruessel: Comite
        International de Dachau, 1972.

Neuhaeusler, Dr. Johann. _Wie war das in KZ Dachau?_.  Dillingen-Donau:
        G.J. Manz AG, 1973.

Segieth, Johannes. _Konzentrationslager Dachau: 1933-1945_.  Muenchen:
        Lipp GmbH, 1978.
________________________________________________________________________

Hope this gives some information on Dachau.

C.K. Bryant
*************************************************
"The Riskier the road, the greater the profit."
        The 62nd Rule of Acquisition
*************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 21:41:29 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Off Limits Topics

>
> I guess I was trying to separate out the requirement of respectable
> scholarship with the personal views of the _owner_ of the list.
> Maybe the word _owner_ when applied to a list is what is throwing me...
> I have seen moderated and unmoderated, but I'm not sure I have run into
> _owner_ before.

  I think "tender" would be more accurate, but all the terms mean is that
I went to work of starting the list, I'm the one who has his mailbox implode
at the end of every semester when students forget to unsub, and I'm the
one who gets a copy of every error from the list (311 such errors Monday
morning).
  I'm not grumbling, I've gotten a huge amount of satisfaction out of
running this zoo^H^H^Hlist. I think we have a rather unique group on this
list and I get a special kick out of seeing "I've lurked here for a while
and this is my first posting...". It's like having someone new join us by
the fire and add to the discussion.

> But I am a new user and fast learner...

  Learning fast is how I stayed alive 1970-72 :-/.

> george bauer
>

Larry J

JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 00:00:51 EST
From:    Kevin Brown <kevinb1350@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: U-Boats

<There was in fact very nearly as good a chance of a convoy
<of forty ships in close order slipping unpercieved between the <patrolling
U-Boats as there was for a single ship;

True; but my point was that the CAPTAINS (and even some USN types) felt
unescorted convoys weren't worth the bother.  The idea of the convoy getting
by as well as a single ship was not intuitively obvious.  I believe  a
research team at MIT worked it out mathematically and finally settled the
issue.

K.B.

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 2 Mar 1994 to 3 Mar 1994
***********************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 3 Mar 1994 to 4 Mar 1994
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Status: O

There are 57 messages totalling 2564 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. QUEST: Americans in concentration camps? (6)
  2. Monty
  3. U-Boats in American waters (3)
  4. The 106th, the Ardennes, and a friend of von (2)
  5. CO of the 91st Bomb Group
  6. INF: USAAF 4-6 MAR 44
  7. Gen. Steiner: Defence of Berlin (2)
  8. QUEST: Sinking of the Indianapolis (2)
  9. Bombing of Dresden /v1, v2 (2)
 10. The 106th, the Ardennes, and a "friend" of von Manteuff
 11. setting to nomail (2)
 12. The 106th, the Ardennes, and a "friend" of von Manteuffel
 13. TAC: Convoys vs. U-Boats (4)
 14. QUEST: FDR/Advance Knowledge of PH
 15. Info/ U-Boats
 16. Polesti raids misinformation (5)
 17. U boats
 18. Rohm shot (7)
 19. Ben Olds flamed over Polesti
 20. Best Aredennes book (?)
 21. Why I detest Ike
 22. WEAP: Peenemunde, V2 etc
 23. book excerpt RE: USAAF 4 March 1944
 24. TAC: Italian AT units
 25. INF: Japanese sub attacks on US mainland (2)
 26. GEN: Re: Einsatz. document (2)
 27. INF: More Mines in Flanders
 28. TAC: 106th Division in the Ardennes
 29. Attempt to contact B-25 crew
 30. Triv: re: Steiner

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 21:18:50 PST
From:    rod holmes <rholmes@DHVX20.CSUDH.EDU>
Subject: QUEST: Americans in concentration camps?

Howdy All,

Hope this doesn't explode. I was wodering if any citizens of the United
States of American were sent to any of the concentration camps?

Rod Holmes                      | I want to drive drunk on the information
rholmes@dhvx20.csudh.edu        | superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 12:27:54 +0700
From:    "Peter E. Beal" <beal@NWG.NECTEC.OR.TH>
Subject: Re: Monty

On Tue, 1 Mar 1994, Ken Koester wrote:

> On Mon, 28 Feb 1994 21:36:05 GMT Stephen Baldwin said:
> >ken koester and me write...
> >
> >ken>, shirked the blame for his foulups &
> >ken>    went out of his way to denigrate his ally in the Ardennes--in fact, he
> >ken>    made the whole thing worse on the northern flank.
> >did he? I know there was a bust up when one of the US generals had his
> >front sliced in half (not literally of course), and the logical thing
> >to do was to pass command to Monty. Ike had to settle the feud and
> >did the logical and correct thing much to the other's anger. As far
> >as I am aware, Monty's policy was to allow the Germans to run
> >themselves down and wait by the Meuse for the tattered remnants to
> >emerge and hit them there - in the meanwhile resting his own chaps...

One has to ask, how were they to be reduced to tattered remnants and by
whom?  Monty's contribution to the battle (I think it was the 30 Corps)
sat out the battle ("rested") on the west side of the Meuse while the 2nd
Armored and the 82nd Abn. reduced the 2nd Panzer Division to tatters.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 06:35:44 -0500
From:    "Max C." <maxc@URSUS1.URSUS.MAINE.EDU>
Subject: U-Boats in American waters

There were three landings of German agents on American shores by U-boat
during the war in Maine, Florida and on Long Island.  I think the
Florida landing was biggest in terms of number of agents and equipment.

There was a very interesting little book published locally a number of
years ago:

            Coffin, Harold W.
            ASSIGNMENT IN MILITARY INTELLIGENCE
            Old Town,Me: Penobscot Press, 1972


In this the author who was an intelligence coordinator for northern New
England tells of two major incidents with U-boats.

He claims that a German sub was sunk just outside of the harbor at
Portland, Maine (near the Diamond Island channel). If I remember the
account he implies that the sub struck a mine while trying to penetrate
the Navy anchorage since the only thing that called the coastal defenses
attention was a hellacious explosion.

He also gives an account of the sinking of one sub near the mouth of the
Kennebec River.  Evidently coast observers spotted the U-boat travelling
on the surface, going north toward Seguin Island.  Just starting around
Small Point the American coastal defense guns at Popham Battery were
swung about ready to blast her when she came around the point.  However,
the call came in for them to stand down since Navy destroyers were
speeding toward the area and a "skipped" shell could endanger them.  The
sub came around the point but began diving...the Navy did show up and
depth-charge the area...and claimed a kill.  I can remember the date but
it had to have been early in the war.  Had the battery at Popham had a
chance to fire they would have been the only engagement with an enemy by
shore batteries in the CONUS during the war.   A similar incident
happened in Oregon in 1942; a coastal battery had a Japanese submarine,
traveling on the surface, right in their sights but the order to fire
never came...I think the battery commander didnt want to give away their
position or something like that (I bet moral at that gun went to rock
bottom...OOOPPPS...I mean "morale").

The German agent was landed near the town of Machias but was quickly
apprehended as were the rest.  In the book mentioned above the author
also gives a number of incidents of German "sleeper" agents and fellow
travelers...it a quick and interesting read.

I can get the hard details on the above inicents for anyone
interested....all my books are at home.



Max C. Calderwood
University of Southern Maine
Gorham, ME
MAXC@URSUS1.URSUS.MAINE.EDU

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 06:33:57 EST
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <hb9388@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: The 106th, the Ardennes, and a friend of von

Earlier Lou had written this paragraph in a response
to Terry Moore:
>
>     Incidentally, I note in the CHRONICLE that West Point
>is looking for a poly sci prof.  Bear?  Con?  Is the
>Academy starting to hire civilian faculty now?
>
Yes, West Point is looking for civilian faculty.  The superintendents
of all three academies had a major meeting with congressional leaders and the
service chiefs awhile back (1-2 years ago) and a decision was made to
increase the civilian faculty at the academies.  West Point WILL NOT be going
to an all-civilian faculty if that is what you think (from your message).

The plan is over the next 15 years to increase the permanent (I say again
permanent) faculty to approximately 50% civilian.  There is no anticipated
change in the the rotating faculty (guys like me) because of the recognized
need for officer role models to teach the cadets.  The reason for the increase
in the civilian faculty is to gain the insight and experience of professional
educators, to maintain and/or improve the level of academic excellence; but at
the same time not change the overall academy experience.  Since the permanent
faculty is around 36% of the total faculty, this will mean that West Point
will reach about 18% civilian faculty by the year 2002.

Hope this clears up your question.

Bear

Barrett F. Lowe               RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, West Point  (e-mail:  hb9388%usma6@trotter.usma.edu)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 05:56:38 CST
From:    jesse carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject: CO of the 91st Bomb Group

Concerning the question of whether Lt. Col. Manny Klette was made the LAST
CO of the famous 91st BG (out of Bassingbourn), let me read a quote from a
biographical sketch given to me by Frank Donafrio, head of the Memphis Belle
Memorial Association had a telephone convo. with my twin, Bobby and he stated
that he knew Manny like a brother.
The sketch states :
"At the end of the war in Europe, he took command of the 91st Bomb Group as its
LAST commander (emphasis mine) prior to inactivation of that famous World War
II combat organization."

Apparently Roger Freeman had left this out of his "8th AF" book series, inad-
vertently, or was unaware of the event.

Obviously Manny's command of the 91st had to be between July and November of
1945.After November, the 91st went inactive.

Jesse Carnes
notjic@lsuvm.sncc.lsu.edu
Baton Rouge
"World's greatest lover of the Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress"

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 06:25:24 -0600
From:    Cheryl Bryant <muckb1@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: QUEST: Americans in concentration camps?

On Thu, 3 Mar 1994, rod holmes wrote:

> Howdy All,
>
> Hope this doesn't explode. I was wodering if any citizens of the United
> States of American were sent to any of the concentration camps?
>
> Rod Holmes                      | I want to drive drunk on the information
> rholmes@dhvx20.csudh.edu        | superhighway.

Hi Rod,
        The answer to you question about there being any Americans held
in concentration camps is Yes.  There were at least 11 Americans held
prisoner at the Concentration Camp Dachau.  I do not have the count on
any of the others.

C.K. Bryant
*************************************************
"The Riskier the road, the greater the profit."
        The 62nd Rule of Acquisition
*************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 07:43:00 EST
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: INF: USAAF 4-6 MAR 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
4 - 6 MARCH 1944

FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-24, Douglas Dauntless
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  Ventura, Lockheed

SATURDAY, 4 MARCH 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 60+ A-36s, P-51s and P-40s, and a
single B-25 bomb dumps, roads, bivouac area, and other targets in the Seton,
Sawnghka, Pinbaw and Walawbum areas; numerous fighters carry out patrol and
armed reconnaissance sorties in the Sumprabum area.
  459th Fighter Squadron, 80th Fighter Group, moves from Kurmitola to
Chittagong, India with P-38s.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 5 B-25s and 23 P-40s (16 of them
Chinese) pound the airfield at Kiungshan; the airfield is heavily damaged and
several parked aircraft are destroyed; 17 Japanese aircraft are claimed shot
down; 4 P-38s and 2 Chinese B-25s claim a freighter, a tanker, and a motor
launch sunk in the Shihhweiyao and Wuhu areas; 6 waves of Japanese aircraft
bomb the airfield at Suichwan, causing considerable damage. In French
Indochina, 6 B-25s bomb the Thanh Hoa chromium mine and Campha Port; 2 P-40s
strafe railroad yards and warehouses at Hongay and Campha Port; 5 P-40s are
dispatched to bomb Cao Bang but because of bad weather attack Chinese-held
Lungchow, China by mistake.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 247: 502 B-17s are
dispatched to hit industrial areas in the suburbs of Berlin; bad weather
forces aircraft to either turn back or hit targets of opportunity and only 1
wing attacks the primary target and a total of 249 bomb. 15 B-17s are lost, 1
is damaged beyond repair and 120 damaged; casualties are 3 KIA, 11 WIA and
141 MIA. Targets: 100 hit Bonn, 35 hit Cologne, 33 hit Dusseldorf, 30 hit
Berlin/Klein Machnow, 7 hit Frankfurt and 33 hit other targets of
opportunity. B-24s were also dispatched but abort because of the weather.
Escort is provided by 86 P-38s, 563 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s and 121
Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-51s; 24 fighters were lost. Details are:
  1. P-38s: 4 lost, 2 damaged beyond repair, 1 damaged; casualties are 1 KIA
and 4 MIA.
  2. P-47s claim 3-1-3 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 1-0-0 on the ground;
4 P-47s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 5 damaged; casualties are 3 MIA.
  3. P-51s claim 5-2-1 Luftwaffe aircraft; 16 P-51s are lost, 1 damaged beyond
repair and 1 damaged; casualties are 1 KIA and 16 MIA.
  CARPETBAGGER operations are flown during the night of 4/5 Mar.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, 251 B-26s and 21 A-20s
scheduled to bomb Malines marshalling yard and Bernay Saint Martin Airfield
abort the mission because of heavy cloud cover over the targets.
  HQ 84th Fighter Wing moves from Keevil to Beaulieu, England.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, weather cancels most
operations; P-40s fly a few sorties against gun emplacements in the battle
area, and others uneventfully patrol the Anzio area.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): P-40s from Makin Island bomb and
strafe runways at Mille Atoll. B-25s from Tarawa Atoll bomb airfield
installations and runways in Wotje Atoll, Marshall Islands.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island,
P-40s join US Navy (USN) fighters and dive bombers in a strike on AA
positions and targets of opportunity in the Rabaul area; 4 patrolling Royal
New Zealand Air Force (RNZAF) Venturas hit targets of opportunity along both
coasts and at Vunalama and Mandres Plantations; 48 B-25s and 12 P-38s, along
with 20+ USN fighters, hit the Rabaul town area in 3 closely spaced attacks.
P-38s also attack targets of opportunity on Duke of York Island, Admiralty
Islands. 12 P-39s hit Monoitu and targets of opportunity along the SW coast
of Bougainville Island. RNZAF Venturas join USN planes in attacks on Japanese
embarkation ports around Choiseul Bay, New Georgia Island, Solomon Islands.
Shortland Island targets of opportunity are hit by P-40s on patrol.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): 20+ A-20s and B-25s support
ground forces on Los Negros Island. In New Guinea, more than 30 B-24s with
fighter escort, pound airfields in the Wewak area; 20+ other B-24s bomb
Hollandia; and A-20s bomb buildings and gun positions in the Saidor area.
  Moves in New Guinea: HQ 38th Bombardment Group (Medium) from Port Moresby
to Nadzab; HQ 43d Bombardment Group (Heavy) from Dobodura to Nadzab.

SUNDAY, 5 MARCH 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): B-25s, A-36s, P-51s and P-40s fly more than
60 sorties against targets in Burma, including artillery positions, storage
areas, ground troops, roads, and a bridge; the targets are in the Zigon,
Shingban, and Myitkyina areas.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 8 B-25s bomb and strafe Chiengmai Airfield,
China, destroying 9 aircraft, the water tower and nearby railroad station;
the barracks area is also damaged.

  EASTERN AIR COMMAND (EAC): During the night, British Major General Orde C
Wingate's Special Force of long-range penetration troops begin dropping by
glider onto Japanese lines of communication in C Burma. US engineer troops
drop first, followed by the British 77 and 111 Brigades. USAAF Colonel Philip
G Cochran's Air Commando unit flies them in, dropping them on a strip
designated Broadway, about 50 miles (80 km) NE of Indaw. Another projected
drop site, Piccadilly, is unusable as the Japanese have blocked it with
fallen trees. Of 67 gliders dispatched, 32 reach Broadway. 539 men, 3 mules
and 65,972 pounds (29,925 kg) of supplies are safely put down, including such
items as bulldozers and lighting apparatus.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 248: 219 B-24s are
dispatched to hit airfields at Mont De Marsan, Cayeux and Bordeaux/Merignac,
France but bad cloud conditions force a target change and multiple aborts; 62
hit Bergerac Airfield, 60 hit Cognac/Chateaubernard Airfield, 41 hit Landes
de Bussac Airfield and 1 hits La Roche Airfield; they claim 14-2-5 Luftwaffe
aircraft; 4 B-24s are lost, 1 is damaged beyond repair and 23 damaged;
casualties are 1 WIA and 35 MIA. Escort is provided by 34 P-38s, 185 P-47s
and 88 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-51s; 2 P-38s are lost, 1 is damaged
beyond repair and 1 pilot is killed and another MIA; 1 P-47 is damaged and 1
pilot is KIA; the P-51s claim 14-0-6 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 0-0-6
on the ground; 3 P-51s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 1 damaged; 1
pilot is WIA and 4 MIA.
  Mission 249: 5 of 5 B-17s drop 250 bundles of leaflets on Le Mans, Paris,
Orleans and Reims, France at 2132-2152 hours without loss.
  A CARPETBAGGER mission is also flown.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 217 B-26s attack NOBALL (V-weapon)
targets in the Saint-Omer-Abbeville, France area.
  HQ 365th Fighter Group and 386th, 387th and 388th Fighter Squadrons move
from Gosfield to Beaulieu, England with P-47s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): HQ 451st Bombardment Group
(Heavy) moves from Gioia del Colle to San Pancrazio, Italy.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): XII Troop Carrier Command
(Provisional) is disbanded at Palermo. Weather again severely hampers
operations in Italy, but P-40s hit Pontecorvo and A-36s attack Formia.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): The Seventh Air Force continues
to hit the Marshall and Caroline Islands; P-40s from Makin Island carry out
fighter-bomber mission against runways and airfield installations at Mille
Atoll; B-25s hit Maloelap and Mille Atolls; B-24s bomb Ponape Island and last
resort targets at Kusaie Island and Mille Atoll.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 22
B-25s, with US Navy (USN) fighter escort, bomb Simpson Harbor; 4 Royal New
Zealand Air Force (RNZAF) Venturas on patrol hit barges anchored off a supply
dock at nearby Raulavat Plantation; 9 B-24s follow with a raid on the Rabaul
town area; 13 others, with USN fighters covering, blast the revetment area
and airstrip at Tobera; 11 P-38's hit Borpop Airfield, and P-40s and USN
fighters hit barges at Kabanga Bay and off the Warangoi River; 16 P-39s
attack AA positions at Monoitu bridge, and 3 P-38's hit Siar.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): About 30 B-24s bomb enemy
positions on Los Negros Island. In NE Nea Guinea, elements of the US 32d
Infantry Division land at Yaula; A-20s bomb and strafe the area; P-39's pound
the areas around Madang and Erima; Australian ground forces break out of the
Ramu Valley and retreat toward Madang.
  71st Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 38th Bombardment Group (Medium),
moves from Port Moresby to Nadzab, New Guinea with B-25s.

MONDAY, 6 MARCH 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 4 B-25s knock the center span out
of the Sittang bridge and blast 2 AA positions; 14 B-25s lay mines around
Kham Yai Island, bomb nearby Prong Island, and hit the marshalling yard at
Pegu; 18 P-51s and P-40s attack Sawnghka bridge with poor results, start
fires near Lalawng Ga, and bomb dumps near Walawbum.
  A flight of the 20th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron, AAF India-Burma
Sector (attached to Tenth Air Force), begins operating from Kisselbari, India
with P-40s; the squadron is based at Guskhara, India.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 250: 504 B-17s and 226
B-24s are dispatched to hit industrial areas in the suburbs of Berlin; fierce
fighter opposition claims 69 bombers (the highest number lost by the Eighth
Air Force in a single day) and 11 fighters; the bombers claim 97-28-60
Luftwaffe fighters; details are:
  1. 248 B-17s hit secondary targets in the Berlin area; 18 B-17s are lost, 2
damaged beyond repair and 172 damaged; casualties are 2 KIA, 8 WIA and 184
MIA.
  2. 226 B-17s hit targets of opportunity at Templin, Verden, Kalkeberge,
Potsdam, Oranienburg and Wittenberg; 35 B-17s are lost, 3 damaged beyond
repair and 121 damaged; casualties are 15 WIA and 354 MIA.
  3. 198 B-24s hit the primary target (Genshagen industrial area), secondary
targets in the Berlin area and targets of opportunity at Potsdam; 16 B-24s
are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 54 damaged; casualties are 15 KIA, 8 WIA
and 148 MIA.
  Escort is provided by 86 P-38s, 615 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s and
100 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-51s; results are:
  1. P-38s claim 3-0-1 Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 P-38 is lost, the pilot is MIA.
  2. P-47s claim 36-7-12 Luftwaffe aircraft; 5 P-47s are lost, 3 damaged
beyond repair and 4 damaged; casualties are 2 WIA and 5 MIA.
  3. P-51s claim 43-1-20 Luftwaffe aircraft; 5 P-51s are lost and 2 damaged;
casualties are 5 MIA.
  The fighters also claim 1-0-12 Luftwaffe aircraft on the ground.
  Mission 251: 5 of 5 B-17s drop 250 bundles of leaflets on Nantes, Cambrai,
Lille, Chateauroux and Lorient, France at 2029-2130 hours without loss.
  CARPETBAGGER missions are also flown.
  A detachment of 22d Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, 7th Photographic
Group (Reconnaissance), ceases operating from Attlebridge and returns to base
at Mount Farm, England with F-5s.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, 260 B-26s bomb NOBALL
(V-weapon) targets, Hirson marshalling yard, and Beauvais/Tille, Airfield;
heavy clouds cause 50+ B-26s and A-20s to abort missions.
  Arriving in England from the US are: 93d and 94th Troop Carrier Squadrons,
439th Troop Carrier Group, at Balderton; 510th and 511th Fighter-Bomber
Squadrons, 405th Fighter-Bomber Group, at Christchurch with P-47s (first
mission is 11 Apr).

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, P-40s pound gun
positions N of the Anzio beachhead (mostly NE of Ardea), and bomb Frosinone
and hit guns near Littoria; A-36s fly armed reconnaissance of roads and
railroad NE of Rome, hitting several vehicles and bombing railroad cars at
Capranica.
  302d Fighter Squadron, 332d Fighter Group, moves from Montecorvino to
Capodichino, Italy with P-39s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): A-24s and P-40s from Makin
Island bomb and strafe runways at Mille Atoll. B-25s from Tarawa Atoll pound
the airfield at Wotje Atoll.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On Bougainville Island,
P-39s hit Monoitu Mission and huts and bridge on the Miwo River. 24 B-25s
with fighter escort, pound Tobera, New Britain Island while 24 B-24s and 12
P-38s hit Kavieng and Panapai Airfield on New Ireland Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): B-25s continue to hit
Japanese forces on Los Negros Island. In New Guinea, B-24s bomb the airstrip
and other targets in the Awar-Nubia area; P-39s and Royal Australian Air
Force (RAAF) aircraft hit Japanese forces around Madang. On New Britain
Island, P-39s and P-38s strafe and dive-bomb the Cape Hoskins-Talasea area as
US Marines land about midway up the coast of the Willaumez Peninsula in
preparation for a drive on Talasea.
  405th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 38th Bombardment Group (Medium), moves
from Port Moresby to Nadzab, New Guinea with B-25s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 07:06:49 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gen. Steiner: Defence of Berlin

> Received: from MAILQUEUE by PCAD (Mercury 1.11); Thu, 3 Mar 94 16:45:54 GMT-6
> Return-path: <@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU:owner-wwii-l@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
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>     Thu, 3 Mar 94 16:45:48 GMT-6
> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU by UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2)
>    with BSMTP id 6728; Thu, 03 Mar 94 17:41:36 EST
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>  UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0143; Thu,
>  3 Mar 1994 17:33:47 -0500


Hello, Chuck!

No problem with General Felix Steiner. His final rank at the end of
the war was SS-Obergruppenfuehrer. General Steiner was an early
member of the Waffen-SS having been the first officer to form and
command what later became the 5th SS-Panzer-Grenadier Division
"Wiking". He later became a corps commander. I must mention to you
that the "Wiking" Division was staffed or manned with ethnic German
nationalities, namely Danish, Norwegian, Flemish and Finns, later on.
It was the first division of its kind to recruit and man, what
otherwise would have been an all-German force.

General Steiner was relied upon during the end battle in Berlin to
relieve the city and rescue the government. Hitler was relying not
only on Steiner but General der Panzertruppen Walther Wenck as well.
When Steiner's final attack failed almost from the start, Hitler gave
up, that is to say, he admitted that the war was lost.

General Felix Steiner died in 1966. He wrote a most interesting work
called "Die Freiwilligen" (The Volunteers) in the mid 50's that can
still be obtained.

Hope this helps.

Terry


> I have recently finished an excellent book which deals strictly with the
> "defence" of Berlin in April, 1945. One of the main "characters" for lack of a
> better word is an SS General named Steiner.
>
> Problem is that *before* reading this book, I had never heard of a "General
> Steiner" and apparently, Hitler attached a great deal of hope on Steiner pulling
> the fat out of the fire even though Field Marshall Henricci, who replaced
> Guderian, was nominally in charge.
>
> Can anyone else provide me with more *pre 1945* information on this very
> interesting General Steiner? Unfortunately, the book does not discuss any
> contributions he may have made prior to the defence of Berlin.
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Chuck
>

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 07:11:20 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: QUEST: Sinking of the Indianapolis

Hello, Chuck!

Will respond or add my two cents' worth on this topic later on today.
You must understand that the Navy's attitude is that it can do no
wrong. They are right and all others are wrong. Anytime, to my way of
thinking, the Navy is caught in a scandal or is perceived to be at
fault, they will go on the offensive, overlook or completely ignore
facts to the contrary of their position, and the blame will always be
placed on someone else's shoulders, in this case Captain McVay.

Will write more later.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 07:14:17 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: QUEST: Americans in concentration camps?

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Hello, Cheryl!

There were some American soldiers of Jewish origin held at
Buchenwald. I don't know the exact number, but I have a taped
interview of one who was there and gave a graphic account of his
incarceration and treatment.

Terry

----------------------------------------------------------------------

> > Hope this doesn't explode. I was wodering if any citizens of the United
> > States of American were sent to any of the concentration camps?
> >
> > Rod Holmes                      | I want to drive drunk on the information
> > rholmes@dhvx20.csudh.edu        | superhighway.
>
> Hi Rod,
>         The answer to you question about there being any Americans held
> in concentration camps is Yes.  There were at least 11 Americans held
> prisoner at the Concentration Camp Dachau.  I do not have the count on
> any of the others.
>
> C.K. Bryant
> *************************************************
> "The Riskier the road, the greater the profit."
>         The 62nd Rule of Acquisition
> *************************************************
>

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 14:17:26 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVS1.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: Bombing of Dresden /v1, v2

> thus spoke the keyboard of Jorrie S. Mackenzie:
> >
> > would it be safe to say that bombing england with the v-1 and v-2 was also
> > not morally deficient?
>
> In my opinion war itself is repugnant but the V1 & V2 weapond were actually
> aimed at military targets like airfields. Many missed their destination.

No, they were far to inaccurate to be aimed at something as small as an
airfield.  Most were fired at cities, and they often missed. London was
hit by 2419 V-1s out of about 8000 fired at the city. Antwerp was hit by
2448, but I don't know how many were fired this way...

Maybe Antwerp was some kind of military target, because it was important
for the supply lines of the allied armies; but London wasn't.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 07:17:30 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gen. Steiner: Defence of Berlin

Hello, again, Chuck!

One more thing I failed to mention about General Felix Steiner. He
was one of only 159 German soldiers during WWII who was awarded the
Knight's Cross with Oakleaves and Swords. His military rank, I
mentioned, is equivalent to a three-star general or lieutenant-
general.

I have much more info on this officer and will gladly provide it. I
can supply dates of promotion, employment and dates of award. Please
let me know.

Terry


Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 07:31:19 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: The 106th, the Ardennes, and a "friend" of von Manteuff

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Hello, Lou!

Thanks for the response and I would like to respond to the points you
raised.


>      One reason for the successful surprise in the Ardennes,
> of course, was that Hitler didn't (have to) use ULTRA.  Thus,
> SHAEF's principle and most credible intelligence source gave
> no clue to the impending avalanche.

    That is very very true. Hitler's penchant for absolute secrecy
worked both ways. It hindered us in obtaining reliable info on the
impending attack quickly, but it also hampered the Germans as
knowledge of the attack was on a need-to-know basis. However, if
memory serves me correctly, weren't there some defecting Germans who
forewarned the Allies of the attack? That knowledge was either
discounted, overlooked or stalled along the way to higher
headquarters. I had read that the Bulge was basically an intelligence
failure, a term easily used to cover-up mistakes. Would appreciate
your thoughts.

    You are of course correct. Ultra was not used and prevented us
from acquiring specific and detailed info on that attack.


 >      I resigned from the Academy after New Cadet "Beast"
> Barracks and one academic semester.  Her name was Sylvia,
> a winsome little Swedish-Danish nymph who put me back
> together again in the Summer of '65.  (Remember the song?
> That's EXACTLY the way it was.)

    What a shame!

>      Incidentally, I note in the CHRONICLE that West Point
> is looking for a poly sci prof.  Bear?  Con?  Is the
> Academy starting to hire civilian faculty now?

>      As a cadet, I was a tie-up.  I would have probably
> gotten 40 kids and myself killed quickly in VN.  I occasionally
> wonder what it would have been like if I had stayed in (and
> survived), but (as you know) I can be fairly impolitic and
> suspect my career would have been accordingly short.  :-)

    I think you sell yourself short. There is no reason to think that
you wouldn't have done well. However, I think it takes great personal
courage to admit shortcomings, and I know it must have been a tough
time for you to make that decision to leave the Academy.

    Thanks again for your note.

    Terry



Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 08:55:00 -0500
From:    GERHARD REMPEL <GREMPEL@WNEC.BITNET>
Subject: setting to nomail

Sorry,
Listserv tells me I am not subscribed, but I get tons of mail.

Larry where are you?? Can you help me set it to nomail for a while -
until I get up to snuff. Thanks.

Gerhard Rempel
GRempel@WNEC/Western New England College, Springfield, Ma 01119. USA

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 08:39:44 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: QUEST: Americans in concentration camps?

>
> Howdy All,
>
> Hope this doesn't explode. I was wodering if any citizens of the United
> States of American were sent to any of the concentration camps?

Considering all of the Americans who wound up in the Gulag, it'd be a real
stretch to believe none did.

British SOE operatives wound up in camps (one forged his own transfer/release
orders), so it's hard to believe that at least some OSS peopled weren't
there.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 10:31:14 EST
From:    GERMAN 101/102 LAB <GLAB@SLUMUS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: The 106th, the Ardennes, and a "friend" of von Manteuffel

In regards to the Austrian, Egon Weiss, I recently read a short
reference to a US Army unit made up of Austrian emigrees.  Does
anyone have any solid references to such a unit or other units
(probably INTEL types) made up of German or Italian refugees?
Any sort of TELNET or FTP references would be most appreciated.

Dale Lally
Carnegie Language Center
St. Lawrence University
Canton NY 13617
dlal@slumus

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 10:48:59 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: setting to nomail

>
> Sorry,
> Listserv tells me I am not subscribed, but I get tons of mail.
>
> Larry where are you?? Can you help me set it to nomail for a while -
> until I get up to snuff. Thanks.
>
> Gerhard Rempel
> GRempel@WNEC/Western New England College, Springfield, Ma 01119. USA
>
Only you can change you options. I can delete you, but not much more.

The most common problem is that listserv doesn't recognize your address.
To find out exactly how you are known to the list, send the command

review wwii-l

to

listserv@ubvm.bitnet


and you will get a listing of the current membership.

Sending

review wwii-l countries

will sort the membership by country of origin (of the address, not the
member ;-).

Once you have your listserv address in hand, show it to your wizards and
ask them why your not being recognized by listserv. This is purely a
function of the local software and requires a local solution.

If all else fails, I can remove you and you should re-subscribe when you
want to start receiving mail again.


Larry J

JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 11:00:48 -0400
From:    John Horner <HORNERJA%SDELVB@SNYBUFVA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU>
Subject: TAC: Convoys vs. U-Boats

Greetings!

There have been a number of interesting posts recently concerning U-Boats
and the convoy system and I thought some information that I just came
across would be helpful.  Its from "The Military History Of World War II"
(Consultant Ed. Barrie Pitt) from the Miltary Press, New York.  On page 157
under the heading "The Science of U-Boat Hunting," the following is printed:

"It could be simply demonstrated that a single group of ships was far less
likely to be detected than a number of independents.  Independents suffered
losses at two to three times the rate of ships in convoy, but the Admiralty's
belief that the latter should not exceed 40 ships came under scrutiny.  Escorts
were allocated (ideally, at least) at three to a very small convoy, plus one
for each additional 10 ships.  This principal was shown to be anomolous
for applying it, say, to two separate convoys of 20 ships each, each would
need to be accompanied by five escorts, yet by combining the two convoys into
one of 40 ships, onlyu seven escorts would be required."

"With escorts in desperately short supply, the reasoning was attractive.
It was also correct, for though twice as many ships occupied twice the area,
their perimeter (assumed circle) increased by less than 50 percent.  To
extrapolate further, 60 ships had less than twice the perimeter of 20 and
100 less than 2 1/2 times.  Thus to keep the same spacing, all else being
equal, only 12 or 13 escorts were required for a 100 ship convoy, where
25 would have been needed for five 20-ship convoys, together with a higher
risk of detection.  Larger convoys were instituted in 1943 and halved the
loss rate."

After studying the mathamatics, it makes obvious sense, but until I really
looked at the situation, I never really understood the advantages of the
convoy system.

Auf Wiedersehen,

John Horner
SUNY Delhi, New York

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 10:11:00 CDT
From:    Roger Safian <ROGER@NUACC.ACNS.NWU.EDU>
Subject: Re: QUEST: Sinking of the Indianapolis

Chuck,

> Recently, I saw a re-run on my satellite of a network film starring Richard
> Thomas (Walton's) dealing with our greatest Naval loss ever, the sinking of
> the Indianapolis by two Kaiten torpedos in July 1945 just after dropping off
> the extremely important cargo (the A-bomb).

The loss of the Indianapolis was a tragedy.  The lack of immediate rescue
compounded this.  I don't think that it is have ever been determined to
be "our greatest naval loss ever", despite what the movie implied.  It
was not sunk by Keiten's, but with conventional torpedos.

> I was absolutely horrified by two things. Could someone familar with how the
> Navy works please explain. It would seem to me that "zig-zagging" or not, the
> ship still would have sunk.

If the ship was zig-zagging, there is a chance that the sub might now have
been able to get the shot off, certainly it would have been more difficult.

> Why was Capt. McVay (sp?) made into a scapegoat by the Chief of Naval
> Operations????? It wasn't his fault!!!!!!!! Captain McVay later killed
> himself - actually, much later, say, around 1969 or so.

The Armed Forces have never taken kindly to an officer in his position.
If your command suffers, for lack of a better word, a great defeat, there
is an excellent chance that your career is over.  Witness the 106'th at the
Bulge, II corps at Kasserine, Kimmel at Pearl, etc.

> Second, I was *HORRIFIED* that during his court-martial the Navy would have
> the unmitigated gall and audacity to besmirch the good name of Captain McVay
> basedon the testimony of the Jap submarine commander!!

You watch to many Hollywood war movies from the 40's.  The war is over, and
"Jap" is an insult.  The word your looking for is "Japanese".  Do you
think it would be possible to take a less hostile attitude in your postings?

> I consider that nothing short of utter blasphemy. Maybe I'm overreacting
> here. I don't know. But to bring this horrible miscretant from Tokyeo to
> testify against one of our boys makes me absolutely ill. The very thought
> of it!

You are.  Your post is very insulting and unwarrented.  The
main reason I got off the .history newsgroups is because of the lack
of proffesionalism they exibit.  This list has been a joy to read,
mainly because the postings are not inflamitory or insulting.  I am
probably out of line here as well, and shall chastise myself for
responding, but I hope you give this some serious thought before your
next post.

                                                    Roger

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 10:53:50 -0600
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: QUEST: FDR/Advance Knowledge of PH

> I realize that this is an unwelcome topic, but seeing it reminds me of a
> book I read in high school called The Paladin.
>
> Now that I have broached the subject, would any of you full time
> historians care to coment on this information.  I am curious if it is
> true, and, if so, how much.

Hi John,

I guess what strikes me odd about it is that if the US was tipped off
of an imminent attack at Pearl, or anywhere else for that matter, why
would anyone think that the US would not declare war on the
perpetrator?

Suppose word had gotten thorough and we deployed against the Japanese
fleet.  I cannot believe that a battle would not have ensued thus
plunking us in the war anyway.  It defies logic.  Would we have just
thought that this was some kind of Japanese regatta out for an early
morning goldcup race?  One lap around Hawaii and back to Yokohama for
saki shooters?  FDR was president not Red Skelton!  We may not all be
geniuses but really... :-)

Have a good weekend,  Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 10:58:56 -0600
From:    Jeff Dingbaum <dingbaum@HEP.NET>
Subject: Re: TAC: Convoys vs. U-Boats

John Horner <HORNERJA%SDELVB@SNYBUFVA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU> writes:
> "With escorts in desperately short supply, the reasoning was attractive.
> It was also correct, for though twice as many ships occupied twice the area,
> their perimeter (assumed circle) increased by less than 50 percent.  To
> extrapolate further, 60 ships had less than twice the perimeter of 20 and
> 100 less than 2 1/2 times.  Thus to keep the same spacing, all else being
> equal, only 12 or 13 escorts were required for a 100 ship convoy, where
> 25 would have been needed for five 20-ship convoys, together with a higher
> risk of detection.  Larger convoys were instituted in 1943 and halved the
> loss rate."

This makes sense in terms of escaping detection, but I am still thinking
back to earlier posts on the subject. It was said that captains didn't want
to join convoys because they didn't want to take orders.  Given that they
were used to giving orders and not taking them, I can understand this.

But I *must* be missing something, because no one has said anything about
the biggest obvious advantage of convoys - if your ship gets hit you have
a chance at getting picked up.  If you are on your own in the North Atlantic
and your ship goes down, your done.  With other ships around it would seem
that you at least have a chance to get picked up by an escort or something.

Lets see now, with a convoy you have an escort or three, you have someone
to fish you out if you get sunk, and your chance of getting spotted in the
first place is not much greater than if you were alone.  On the flip side,
if you are on your own you have a slightly smaller chance of getting spotted,
you die if you sink, and you don't have to take orders.  Wow what a choice.

Is my argument flawed?  It would seem to me that a convoy would be the
way to go.


Jeff Dingbaum
dingbaum@hep.net

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 10:36:48 CST
From:    Michael P LaForge <mlaforge@SAVANNA-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Info/ U-Boats

 }very interested in getting in touch with an organization
called CAMP - Council on Abandoned Military Posts.

They used to be based in Arlington VA, but seem not to be
listed in the fone directories. Any assistance would be
greatly appreciated.

An interesting little book called "Defenses of Narragansett Bay
in World War II"; Walter K. Schroder, Rhode Island Bicentennial Foundation
1980, ISBN: 0-917012-22-4, LOC Cat Card # 80-51763, details the destruction
of several U-boats, notably the U-550 and the U-853. the book also gives
some details on the landing of spies by the U-202, U-1230, and the U-584.

******************************************************************************
* Mike LaForge, GS-12, QASAS                                                 *
* U.S. Army Technical Center for Explosive Safety (USATCES)                  *
* Explosive Safety Logistics Division (ESL)                                  *
* Defense Environmental Restoration Program - Formerly Used Defense Sites    *
* (DERP FUDS)                                                                *
* DSN: 585-8762  FAX: 585-8769  COMM: 815-273-8762                           *
******************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 11:36:07 CST
From:    jesse carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject: Polesti raids misinformation

Dear All ;

I spoke with Ed Kueppers, 8th Air Force Historical Society, and he gave me
some data which helped as concerns my lost uncle, Ben Olds who was purportedly
shot down over Polesti ... as a fighter pilot.

Novice that I am, I was unawares that the earliest raids over Polesti were
basically UNescorted sorties.
Makes sense, in that we did not set up bases in Italy until after late 1943.

What this boils down to is possibly this :  My uncle Ben may have flown for
for a FG out of England and he was shot down by the Luft. as he escorted
B-24s on their first leg of the trip, before having to turn back to England,
500-700 miles being the possible max range of his bird without an extra drop
tank.  So maybe the Luft. flamed him as the main force was entering Festung
Europa on their way, eventually unescorted, toward Polesti in '43 or 44.

Again, his family was the richest oil family in the US at c.1942 and I need
to check which are the three largest oil co.'s in Oklahoma today, let's say,
and see if his family still retains ownership and then take it from there.


Jesse Carnes

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 11:54:55 CST
From:    jesse carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Polesti raids misinformation

Could someone tell me WHEN the main raids over Polesti {Ploiesti) Rumania
occurred?

By doing this, I might be able to NARROW my search time of Oklahoma's
major newspaper(s).

Without a restricted list, I would virtually have to search ALL of microfilm
entries for 1943 and 1944 for an obituary of my uncle in 2 or 3 major Oklahoma
newspapers.

Thanx a million!


Jesse Carnes
notjic@lsuvm.sncc.lsu.edu
Baton Rouge, LA
"The world's greatest lover of the Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress"

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 12:08:34 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: U boats

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>  2 Mar 1994 09:07:25 -0500



Hello, again, Bill!

After reading this for the second time, I find I didn't answer all of
it the first time. My apologies.


         Something for the list, I know what countries were at war
>          but during WW-II what was happening in South America????

    My understanding is that the SA countries who did declare war on
the Axis did so rather late in the conflict, somewhere between late
1942-1943. Their contributions, and some have made excellent posts to
this effect, were not substantial, more on the line of small units
that offered more support than having any real impact on events.

>           I mean i dont remember hearing about George patton of brazil.
>         my real question is did life go on there as normal, or were
>         they affected by shortages and rationing also????

   Given the remoteness of SA from the main events going on in Europe
life was not all that affected and life was pretty near normal. One
advantage for us, anyway, was that we had access to airfields in
Argentina which were used as stop-overs for rest and refueling for
ferrying aircraft across the South Atlantic for use in the Far East.

> I know paraguay or argentina was somewhat used by the nazi's
>         i think,,as a friendly port.... I have not run across anybooks
>        on this so I thought i would run this by you.

    I haven't  either. My only knowledge of this subject is gleaned
from other accounts where the area of SA is dealt with as an
ancillary topic.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 12:23:26 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Rohm shot

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>  1 Mar 1994 23:55:21 -0500


Hello, Christopher!

I just wanted to add a comment to your own, and I would appreciate
your thoughts.

> >             rohm being shot had nothing to do with his partner in
> >           Bed...He had the Sa, Brown shirts... as opposed to HImmler who
> >         had the SS.... Himmler felt threatened by Rohm as Rohm still
> >          carried weight with the furher.........Also rohm if my memorey
> >         serves me correctly was of the old school of German officers
> >          though I admit I may be totally wrong on that....
>
> Yes, you're totally wrong on that! :)

> Roehm was the antithesis of the Prussian junkers.

    I agree with that statement that Roehm was the very antithesis of
the Prussian Junkers. The old officer corps would never have
tolerated a man such as Roehm within its ranks.

> He was a homosexual, had a reputation for child molestation and wanted
> to replace the Reichsweher/Wehrmacht with a working class party army using
> the SA as the base.

    True, but I have never heard of Roehm molesting children, nor his
having the reputation as such. Someone had posted that he preferred
young males between the ages 18-25 which is right on the money. I am
only curious as to where you got this info.

    Your last part of the comment is also correct, and that was the
ultimate dream of Roehm.

> The Army was even more appalled at the thought of Roehm than of the rest of
> the nazis.  When relations between Roehm and Hitler deteriorated, Roehm was
> eliminated as a bone to be thrown to the Army, which certainly shed no tears
> over his demise.

    That was the price to get the Army behind Hitler, i.e., Roehm had
to go, but Hitler really stewed over the sacrifice of his "friend" as
he was only one of two with whom he ever used the familar "Du". It
was not as easy a decision for him to take as your comment seems to
suggest. The Army was only too glad to see Roehm go.


    Thank you very much for allowing me to add my comments.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 12:28:49 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bombing of Dresden /v1, v2

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Hello, Emmanuel!

Your remarks are right on the money. Those missles were intended for
one thing and one thing only and that was to terrorize the civilian
population in London, and hopefully divert enough attention and
military hardware from the Western Front to give the Germans a
breathing space. From the standpoint of the Germans, if military
targets could be successfully attacked with those missles, then so
much the better.

    Thanks.

    Terry
------------------------------------------------------------------
 > would it be safe to say that bombing england with the v-1 and v-
2 was also > > > not morally deficient?
> >
> > In my opinion war itself is repugnant but the V1 & V2 weapond were actually
> > aimed at military targets like airfields. Many missed their destination.
>
> No, they were far to inaccurate to be aimed at something as small as an
> airfield.  Most were fired at cities, and they often missed. London was
> hit by 2419 V-1s out of about 8000 fired at the city. Antwerp was hit by
> 2448, but I don't know how many were fired this way...
>
> Maybe Antwerp was some kind of military target, because it was important
> for the supply lines of the allied armies; but London wasn't.
>
> Emmanuel Gustin
>

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 12:43:02 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Polesti raids misinformation

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Hello, Jesse!

 I would like to add my thoughts to your comments.

> Novice that I am, I was unawares that the earliest raids over Polesti were
> basically UNescorted sorties.
> Makes sense, in that we did not set up bases in Italy until after late 1943.

    Ploesti was bombed a total of 44 times during the course of the
war. There was even one raid of P-38's loaded down with bombs that
was sent to attack the refineries there. It had long been a juicy and
tempting target to American planners. The problem was always
distance and the fact that it was so heavily defended for obvious
reasons.

   The big raid on Ploesti in 1942, I think, in which we lost so many
B-24's were part of the IXth Air Force operating out of North Africa.
There were 5 combat cameramen that made the raid and only one
survived, and the only footage you will ever see of that raid, and I
think this cameraman shot a total of 526 feet of film during the
course of that raid, was all shot by this man. His name was Jerry
Joswick who wrote a fascinating book on this topic.

Talk about American ownership of properties in Nazi-occupied Europe,
this country had extensive interests, as you may well imagine, in
Ploesti, Rumania. I would have to recheck my source, but of the 5 (?)
refineries there, we owned 2 (?). They also had names, but they slip
my mind.

    Thanks.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 12:46:49 -0600
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: TAC: Convoys vs. U-Boats

> This makes sense in terms of escaping detection, but I am still thinking
> back to earlier posts on the subject. It was said that captains didn't want
> to join convoys because they didn't want to take orders.  Given that they
> were used to giving orders and not taking them, I can understand this.

Hi Jeff,

I can't resist this but your comment here has jarred loose an old
joke I heard a while back....

It seems this newly promoted Captain was out on his battlewagon on
night maneuvers when a light appeared dead ahead.

Calling his signalman to the bridge he orders the sailor to send a
message telling the oncoming ship to come about and get out of the
way "cuz we're comin' through".

After much mutual flashing the sailor reports that we are being
ordered to turn away.

Getting surly the Captain orders another message but this time
ordering him to turn away by order of Captain Soandso.

Much flashing and the sailor timidly reports that we are being
ordered to turn away by order of Chief Petty Office Thusandsuch.

Closer and closer the two come.

Livid, the Captain orders the sailor to signal a last chance come
about before collision "tell him were a battleship"

Much flashing and the sailor comes back and reports the Chiefs
reply: "Yes, sir, if you insist but I'm in a lighthouse". :-)


> Is my argument flawed?  It would seem to me that a convoy would be the
> way to go.
>
> Jeff Dingbaum

Good point about being rescued much easier in a convoy.  I don't see
why they wouldn't want to do that either.  One of my instructors at
Texas A&M, Richard Steffy, sailed on merchantmen during the war
having had 3 blown out from under him.  He said they used mattresses
to plug holes from torpedoes for damage control.

Another good friend was stuck in Scotland with his mother when war
broke out stranding him there.  His father was a merchant sailor and
they would write letters to try to stay in touch.  Months went by and
no letter from him which was not too unusual but then they got a
bundle of their letters back with a rubber stamp on them saying
"Return to Sender, Ship Sunk".  That was the only notice they
received of the his father's death.

Sorry for flim-flaming your emotions but that's the way war is.
Sometimes you laugh, sometimes you cry.

Regards,  Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 12:46:04 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ben Olds flamed over Polesti

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Hello, again, Jesse!

I will cite you two sources that I have seen on the Ploesti raids and
will provide them to you on Monday. One does come to mind:

    Combat Cameraman by Jerry Joswick
    Ploesti by (?)

    Will post to you on Monday or tomorrow, as I have to be up here
tomorrow.

    Terry



Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 12:50:48 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Best Aredennes book (?)

> Received: from MAILQUEUE by PCAD (Mercury 1.11); Thu, 3 Mar 94 18:53:29 GMT-6
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Hello, again Lou!

I would like to add some others.
> Incidentally, the best introductory book -- I think -- is
>   John Toland's BATTLE.  You can see/feel the huge Tigers and
>   Panthers sneaking through the pines.

    Amen to that. Another I liked very much was John S. D.
Eisenhower's book "The Bitter Woods".

   "The Battle of the Bulge" by Robert S. Merriam was also well done.

   Terry


 > Lou Coatney, WIU Library (until 30 Jun 94)
>

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 12:53:30 CST
From:    jesse carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Polesti raids misinformation

Professor Moore ;

Thanx so much!

Jesse Carnes

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 13:56:18 EST
From:    Robert E George <regeorge@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: QUEST: Americans in concentration camps?

>
> On Thu, 3 Mar 1994, rod holmes wrote:
>
> > Howdy All,
> >
> > Hope this doesn't explode. I was wodering if any citizens of the United
> > States of American were sent to any of the concentration camps?
> >
> > Rod Holmes                      | I want to drive drunk on the information
> > rholmes@dhvx20.csudh.edu        | superhighway.
>
> Hi Rod,
>         The answer to you question about there being any Americans held
> in concentration camps is Yes.  There were at least 11 Americans held
> prisoner at the Concentration Camp Dachau.  I do not have the count on
> any of the others.
>
> C.K. Bryant
> *************************************************
> "The Riskier the road, the greater the profit."
>         The 62nd Rule of Acquisition
> *************************************************
>

Were these American military/diplomatic/espionage/covert operations
personnel or were they Americans whose American status was not recognized/
acknowledged by the Germans (e.g., two Polish Jews emigrate to U.S. in
1905, have a child in 1910, return in 1920, and the child is later taken
to a concentration camp)?

Robert George

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 13:12:08 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: The 106th, the Ardennes, and a friend of von

> Received: from MAILQUEUE by PCAD (Mercury 1.11); Fri, 4 Mar 94 5:41:26 GMT-6
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>  4 Mar 1994 06:34:13 -0500

    Hello, Barry!

    Read your most interesting post relating to Lou's original. I
have some questions.

> Yes, West Point is looking for civilian faculty.  The superintendents
> of all three academies had a major meeting with congressional leaders and the
> service chiefs awhile back (1-2 years ago) and a decision was made to
> increase the civilian faculty at the academies.  West Point WILL NOT be going
> to an all-civilian faculty if that is what you think (from your message).

    Will the civilian faculty be required to wear uniforms? If
not, will this not send mixed messages to the cadets? What effect
will this have on discipline? The academy, it seems to me has access
to many highly-qualified officers with the necessary credentials to
offer quality instruction there. I am not so certain that many
professional educators would necessarily improve the level of
academic excellence. What sort of criteria would be implemented to
attract and employ civilian professionals. Would there be a tenure-
track system implemented? What about compensation? Would it be on a
level or exceeding the level currently used within the Army? Also, do
you or does the administration there envisage having two separate pay
scales, one for military and one for civilian? Do you for one really
think this will improve the quality of your graduates?

> The plan is over the next 15 years to increase the permanent (I say again
> permanent) faculty to approximately 50% civilian.  There is no anticipated
> change in the the rotating faculty (guys like me) because of the recognized
> need for officer role models to teach the cadets.  The reason for the increase
> in the civilian faculty is to gain the insight and experience of professional
> educators, to maintain and/or improve the level of academic excellence; but at
> the same time not change the overall academy experience.  Since the permanent
> faculty is around 36% of the total faculty, this will mean that West Point
> will reach about 18% civilian faculty by the year 2002.

    I really wonder if that goal is attainable, in that the academy
experience will not be affected by the inclusion of civilian
instructors. It seems to me that the Academy may employ civilian
instructors who may not fully understand what the Academy is all
about, and could affect discipline. I realize that I am prejudiced,
because I have always felt that all the service academies have access
to the very best of whatever is required to fulfill the mission, and,
I, for one, would need some convincing to fully support your
administration's position that professional civilian instructors can
do as better or better job than with the staff you have.

    Please let me know your thoughts or anyone else for that matter.

    All the best.

    Terry



Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 13:28:45 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Polesti raids misinformation

> Received: from MAILQUEUE by PCAD (Mercury 1.11); Fri, 4 Mar 94 12:07:49 GMT-6
> Return-path: <@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU:owner-wwii-l@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
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>  4 Mar 1994 13:02:55 -0500

Hello, again, Jesse!

> Could someone tell me WHEN the main raids over Polesti {Ploiesti) Rumania
> occurred?

    I can get that info for you too. If someone hasn't posted that to
you before tomorrow,  I will.

    Thanks.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 13:39:44 CST
From:    Steve Alvin <salvin@HEARTLAND.BRADLEY.EDU>
Subject: Re: TAC: Convoys vs. U-Boats

You might have a better chance of being picked up in a convoy.
But, (and it is a really big but), nobody in their right mind
would slow down and stop for you, particularly at night and
particularly with a U-boat, or possibly more, sitting out there
waiting.  Think back to what happen to the three British armored
cruisers at the beginning of WW I.  One was torpedo, so the other
two stop to pick up survivors--all they did was make themselves
easy targets and they were sunk as well!

--
Steve Alvin
salvin@heartland.bradley.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 13:47:56 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Why I detest Ike

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>  25 Feb 1994 16:53:14 -0500


Hello, again, Barry!

Heard you all had had another huge snow storm come through your area.
How about sending some of that down this way? We could use the
moisture. It's shirt-sleeve weather here.

> I think you answered the mail on that one very well.  Ike was the right man
> for the job of supreme allied commander.  Just as George Patton was the right
> man to command 3rd Army.

    Thank you for the kind words. I did my best, but there were other
things that could have been added in retrospect. As far as I am
concerned, Ike was the only man for that job, and the team he put
together was the best that could be found anywhere.

> I think I will leave my opinions of Monty to myself, especially after he
> destroyed a division's worth of good paratroopers at Arnhem in an ill conceived
> plan.

    Didn't he though? I think the real idea or impetus for that
operation came from General "Boy" Browning, and Monty capitalized on
it. The approval of the whole idea of Market-Garden, as I understand
it and view it, was as a sop to Monty and, above all, to Churchill.
Had it succeeded, I wonder if the Allies had been prepared to exploit
the victory. I don't think they were. I don't think they had the
immediate resources to follow through. Had the operation succeeded, I
can only see them holding on long enough to build up resources and
launch a final attack into the Ruhr, but this would have given the
Germans time to regroup and reinforce, and the going would have been
very difficult.


What do you or any others think?


Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 14:16:39 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: Rohm shot

>
> > Received: from MAILQUEUE by PCAD (Mercury 1.11); Tue, 1 Mar 94 22:59:23 GMT-6
> > Return-path: <@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU:owner-wwii-l@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
> > Received: from UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu by PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU (Mercury 1.11);
> >     Tue, 1 Mar 94 22:59:18 GMT-6
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> >  1 Mar 1994 23:55:21 -0500
>
>
> Hello, Christopher!
>
> I just wanted to add a comment to your own, and I would appreciate
> your thoughts.
>
> > >             rohm being shot had nothing to do with his partner in
> > >           Bed...He had the Sa, Brown shirts... as opposed to HImmler who
> > >         had the SS.... Himmler felt threatened by Rohm as Rohm still
> > >          carried weight with the furher.........Also rohm if my memorey
> > >         serves me correctly was of the old school of German officers
> > >          though I admit I may be totally wrong on that....
> >
> > Yes, you're totally wrong on that! :)
>
> > Roehm was the antithesis of the Prussian junkers.
>
>     I agree with that statement that Roehm was the very antithesis of
> the Prussian Junkers. The old officer corps would never have
> tolerated a man such as Roehm within its ranks.
>
Somebody posted a message that he'd been a captain during the war, but if
so, I don't know when he was commissioned.  The ranks of the enlisted
instructors at the Infantry School in 1981 were full to overflowing with
rifed former officers.  I suspect that he was commissioned during the war.
I don't have a biography of him.  Maybe I ought to find one, if one exists.

> > He was a homosexual, had a reputation for child molestation and wanted
> > to replace the Reichsweher/Wehrmacht with a working class party army using
> > the SA as the base.
>
>     True, but I have never heard of Roehm molesting children, nor his
> having the reputation as such. Someone had posted that he preferred
> young males between the ages 18-25 which is right on the money. I am
> only curious as to where you got this info.
>
"Order of the Death's Head".  It refers to his and his friends' recruiting
of sexual partners from a highschool.  As someone else pointed out, that
raises the question of what the age of consent was in Germany at the time.
I suppose it's a valid question.

> > The Army was even more appalled at the thought of Roehm than of the rest of
> > the nazis.  When relations between Roehm and Hitler deteriorated, Roehm was
> > eliminated as a bone to be thrown to the Army, which certainly shed no tears
> > over his demise.
>
>     That was the price to get the Army behind Hitler, i.e., Roehm had
> to go, but Hitler really stewed over the sacrifice of his "friend" as
> he was only one of two with whom he ever used the familar "Du". It
> was not as easy a decision for him to take as your comment seems to
> suggest. The Army was only too glad to see Roehm go.
>
As was Himmler who hated and feared him even more than the Wehrmacht leaders.
>
>     Thank you very much for allowing me to add my comments.
>
You're welcome.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 06:43:30 -0800
From:    "Office TH325, Extension 3566" <RIEGSECKER@UPS.EDU>
Subject: Re: U-Boats in American waters

>He also gives an account of the sinking of one sub near the mouth of the
>Kennebec River.  Evidently coast observers spotted the U-boat travelling
>on the surface, going north toward Seguin Island.  Just starting around
>Small Point the American coastal defense guns at Popham Battery were
>swung about ready to blast her when she came around the point.  However,
>the call came in for them to stand down since Navy destroyers were
>speeding toward the area and a "skipped" shell could endanger them.  The
>sub came around the point but began diving...the Navy did show up and
>depth-charge the area...and claimed a kill.  I can remember the date but
>it had to have been early in the war.  Had the battery at Popham had a
>chance to fire they would have been the only engagement with an enemy by
>shore batteries in the CONUS during the war.   A similar incident
>happened in Oregon in 1942; a coastal battery had a Japanese submarine,
>traveling on the surface, right in their sights but the order to fire
>never came...I think the battery commander didnt want to give away their
>position or something like that (I bet moral at that gun went to rock
>bottom...OOOPPPS...I mean "morale").
>

I read about the Oregon incident not long ago but I can't remember
where.  I do remember that the costal guns were so antiquated that the
subs guns outranged it.  All the sub had to do was stand out of range
and shell the costal guns with no danger to itself.  I've gone through
the remains of a costal battery here in the state of Washington.
Interesting.

John Riegsecker
Riegsecker@ups.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 14:32:35 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Rohm shot

> Received: from MAILQUEUE by PCAD (Mercury 1.11); Fri, 4 Mar 94 14:10:07 GMT-6
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> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@UBVM) by


Hello, again, Christopher!

Thanks for responding to my comments. I would like to respond to
yours.

> Somebody posted a message that he'd been a captain during the war, but if
> so, I don't know when he was commissioned.  The ranks of the enlisted
> instructors at the Infantry School in 1981 were full to overflowing with
> rifed former officers.  I suspect that he was commissioned during the war.
> I don't have a biography of him.  Maybe I ought to find one, if one exists.

    Roehm was indeed a captain in the German Army in WWI. I have no
details as to his employment, but it is known that he served as an
officer in WWI with the rank of captain. Yes, he had to have been
commissioned during the war.

    I have only seen Roehm's biography in relation to other contexts
that deal with the "Night of the Long Knives". I have not seen
anything that deals with Roehm in and of itself, and one would be
interesting, perhaps rather thin in size, bu interesting.

> "Order of the Death's Head".  It refers to his and his friends' recruiting
> of sexual partners from a highschool.  As someone else pointed out, that
> raises the question of what the age of consent was in Germany at the time.
> I suppose it's a valid question.

    Interesting. I hadn't read Hoehne's book, although I have it. I
have not had the time to access it. I will have to read it. I have
read several things on Roehm but that is the first reference I have
encountered that specifically nails Roehm as a pedephile.

> >     That was the price to get the Army behind Hitler, i.e., Roehm
had
> > to go, but Hitler really stewed over the sacrifice of his "friend" as
> > he was only one of two with whom he ever used the familar "Du". It
> > was not as easy a decision for him to take as your comment seems to
> > suggest. The Army was only too glad to see Roehm go.
> >
> As was Himmler who hated and feared him even more than the
Wehrmacht leaders.

    Also, so true. Himmler and Roehm were obvious rivals, and it only
made Himmler that much more desirous of helping Adolf to rid himself
of his liabilities. Perhaps but only from the standpoint of his
relationship to Hitler and the fact that Roehm controlled the largest
armed force (SA) in the Party.


    Thanks again for the source, and I will read this work.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 20:57:08 GMT
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <gummihe@ISMENNT.IS>
Subject: WEAP: Peenemunde, V2 etc

        Hey all

Does anyone  have any info on Peenemunde or the Projects concieved
there? Like on the development of the A-4 (later called V-2) and the
submerge-launched missles fired from U.511 (KorvKpt Fritz Steinhoff) on
the summer of 1942.

Also, what were V-3 and V-4? I know that either one was a huge cannon
aimed for London I think. Any info?

Did any of the other "secret-weapons" exist or were under development?
Like Death rays and stuff like that? Or was it just hype :) No chemical
stuff?


Bye



Gudmundur J. Helgason

E-mail:    gummihe@ismennt.is

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 15:05:38 -0400
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: book excerpt RE: USAAF 4 March 1944

I've typed an excerpt from the book "B-17s Over Berlin:  Personal
Stories from the 95th BG (H)", edited by Ian L. Hawkins, published
by Brassey's in 1990, ISBN #0-08-040569-X.  The excerpt recounts
an incident during the 4 March 1944 raid to Berlin.  Any typos
are mine.

But first, my explanatory notes...

Most of the 8th AF turned back that day, attacking targets of
opportunity.  29 B-17s of the 95th BG, plus elements of the
100th BG, ignored the recall and continued on to Berlin.  The
lead aircraft was "I'll Be Around", being flown that day by
Lt. Alvin Brown and crew.  Lt. Col. Griff Mumford was aboard
as mission commander.  The small formation made it to Berlin,
escorted by P-51s from the 367th FG.  The 357th's Chuck Yeager
was credited with his first victory that day over Berlin.
BTW, Brown's usual B-17 was named "Blues in the Reich", but
was not available that day.  Brown and crew returned to Berlin
two days later in "their" aircraft.  "I'll Be Around" earned
the distinction of being the first B-17 over Berlin, but
ironically, could not unload its lethal cargo.  The bomb bay
doors were frozen shut.  After the formation left Berlin, they
began a gradual descent due to a shortage of oxygen supplies.
Brown unloaded on a target of opportunity, a bridge, an
hour and a half later, from 12,500 feet.  "I'll Be Around"
was lost on 1 April 1944, with a different crew (all survived
as POWs).  Lt. Brown survived to complete his tour and now
lives in Florida.  In 1992, he graciously answered several of
my (telephoned) questions, and sent me an unpublished photograph
of the "I'll Be Around", so that I could correctly paint a
model of it.


Begin Quote:
Technical Sargent Frank Atterbury, radio operator, B-17 231320,
"I'll Be Around":  For the sake of brevity, I'll skip the details of
the horrendous weather conditions that day and how the 95th corralled
a small force of B-17s and took them to Berlin and back.  These
events, I believe, are well known.  What apparently isn't well
known is the story of the Berlin recall.  Hopefully, this will
clarify the conjecture.

The (my note: recall) message came in bomber code that consisted of
groups of four letters without any particular sequence but
corresponded to a particular word.  An example might be, PQAM, which
might have been the code word for "obscured".

The collective code word that day was RZNC (my note: with a bar over
the C) - the dash over the letter C meant that in our particular use
of the International Morse Code the letter C would have an extra
dash in it and to come across as "dash dot dash dot dash".  The
collective call sign RZNC (bar) was the call sign that our bas station
would use to call everyone on the mission.  It was the greeting or
salutation of the message.

The actual message came across as follows:  ABANDON OPS. RETURN TO
BASE 1200 HOURS. RZNC(bar).   The message came from a nearby source.
That was obvious from the clarity, sound, and tone of the signal.
The collective call sign was used as a signature to the message -
which was an error - and there was no greeting call sign used at
all.  The messages came across several times, but with a significant
interval.  There was no possibility that I could have mistaken
the signature for a greeting.

I reported the mesage as received to the cockpit and told the pilots
that the message as sent did not constitute a recall per standard
operating procedure.

Upon returning to Horham (my note: the 95th BG's base in England),
it was confirmed to me by Col. Chester Gilger, 95th BG CO at the time,
that there had not been a recall sent from England.  Where then, did
the message come from?  I am sure that it came from an enemy radio
transmitter in an almost successful attempt to turn back an
historic event.

The courageous decision to continue toward our assigned target,
Berlin, came from the cockpit, naturally.  If I may paraphrase
a famous newscaster:  "and that's the way it was for March 4, 1944."
End quote


Dennis E. Sparks
sparks@caer.uky.edu
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 15:07:37 -0600
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: Rohm shot

Chris writes:
> Somebody posted a message that he'd been a captain during the war, but if
> so, I don't know when he was commissioned.  The ranks of the enlisted
> instructors at the Infantry School in 1981 were full to overflowing with
> rifed former officers.  I suspect that he was commissioned during the war.

I looked it up in Robert Wistrich's book _Who's Who in Nazi Germany_
and he says that Roehm was wounded three times in WW1 once getting
half his nose shot off but didn't indicate what his rank was.  It
said he had been a Captain in the Reichswehr which goes against what
folks have been saying about him being so much apart from Prussian
Officer ideal.  To be allowed to remain in the 100,000 man Reichswehr
he had to have his ducks in a row to some extent.  Its sort of like
the military today in the US, very competitive.

Terry Moore writes:
> >     True, but I have never heard of Roehm molesting children, nor his
> > having the reputation as such. Someone had posted that he preferred
> > young males between the ages 18-25 which is right on the money. I am
> > only curious as to where you got this info.

The Who's Who says nothing about children either.  It further
mentioned that Hitler personnally arrived with the SS men to arrest
him but another book I had read indicated that Hitler sort of took
the weekend off.  Don't remember which one that was.

Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 13:39:46 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: QUEST: Americans in concentration camps?

Yes, numerous American citizens were sent the German convcentration camps.
Not only Jews -- severa hundred American airmen also ended up in places
like Buchenwald. The consequences of the Gestapo catching them,

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 14:06:02 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: U-Boats in American waters

A Japanese submarine shelled a lighthouse in Canada, too.
At a very isolated settlement, near Uclulet, on the west coast of
Vancouver Island. Some of the sheels whooshed over a nearby Indian
reserve. ("Sheels" ?  *Shells*) No casualties on land, but the
offending Japanese sub was believed sunk three or four days later.
'Serves him right, for drawing attention to himself.  :-)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 17:05:52 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: Rohm shot

>     Roehm was indeed a captain in the German Army in WWI. I have no
> details as to his employment, but it is known that he served as an
> officer in WWI with the rank of captain. Yes, he had to have been
> commissioned during the war.

Why?  Because he was of insufficiently elevated circumstances?  That's a
question that I've wondered about.  Were there a lot of people from modest
backgrounds (middleclass, Jews, etc.) as commissioned officers in reserve
formations?

>     I have only seen Roehm's biography in relation to other contexts
> that deal with the "Night of the Long Knives". I have not seen
> anything that deals with Roehm in and of itself, and one would be
> interesting, perhaps rather thin in size, bu interesting.

I'll do a subject and title search of the Cuyahoga County Library system when
I finish here.

> > "Order of the Death's Head".  It refers to his and his friends' recruiting
> > of sexual partners from a highschool.  As someone else pointed out, that
> > raises the question of what the age of consent was in Germany at the time.
> > I suppose it's a valid question.
>
>     Interesting. I hadn't read Hoehne's book, although I have it. I
> have not had the time to access it. I will have to read it. I have
> read several things on Roehm but that is the first reference I have
> encountered that specifically nails Roehm as a pedephile.
>
I consider it a classic.  Anyone who can read that book and claim that the
holocaust is a hoax, would have been euthanized by the nazis as a mental
defective himself.

> > As was Himmler who hated and feared him even more than the
> Wehrmacht leaders.
>
>     Also, so true. Himmler and Roehm were obvious rivals, and it only
> made Himmler that much more desirous of helping Adolf to rid himself
> of his liabilities. Perhaps but only from the standpoint of his
> relationship to Hitler and the fact that Roehm controlled the largest
> armed force (SA) in the Party.

I wonder what things would have been like if Roehm had gained control of the
armed forces.  The standards of the SA were quite low, certainly nothing like
those of the SS.

>
>     Thanks again for the source, and I will read this work.
>
Your welcome.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 17:20:26 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: Rohm shot

> I looked it up in Robert Wistrich's book _Who's Who in Nazi Germany_
> and he says that Roehm was wounded three times in WW1 once getting
> half his nose shot off but didn't indicate what his rank was.  It
> said he had been a Captain in the Reichswehr which goes against what
> folks have been saying about him being so much apart from Prussian
> Officer ideal.  To be allowed to remain in the 100,000 man Reichswehr
> he had to have his ducks in a row to some extent.  Its sort of like
> the military today in the US, very competitive.

That's why he had a striking resemblance to Oliver Hardy! :)

Roehm had a distinguished record in the War.  His personal life however, was
not to the liking of the Army.

> Terry Moore writes:
> > >     True, but I have never heard of Roehm molesting children, nor his
> > > having the reputation as such. Someone had posted that he preferred
> > > young males between the ages 18-25 which is right on the money. I am
> > > only curious as to where you got this info.
>
> The Who's Who says nothing about children either.  It further
> mentioned that Hitler personnally arrived with the SS men to arrest
> him but another book I had read indicated that Hitler sort of took
> the weekend off.  Don't remember which one that was.
>
Check out "Order of the Death's Head".

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 17:35:19 -0500
From:    Joe Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: TAC: Italian AT units

        The story of Italian units equipped with the famous German dual
purpose 88mm anti-aircraft/anti-tank gun is almost unknown.  It began
when Italy, after entering World War II with mostly World War I vintage
artillery, asked Germany for weapons and ammunition.  As a result, two
battalions of 88mm Flak guns were formed in Florence in September 1940.
These two units were strictly intended for an AA role since the 88's
AT role had not been fully developed at that time.  The 18th Battalion
was sent to North Africa in October, and the 29th followed in December.
(A third battalion was also formed and later sent to Tripoli where it
remained.)

        The guns of the 18th were truck-towed, which helped keep its
losses to no more than one battery during the Italian retreat to El
Agheila caused by the British offensive, "Operation Crusader."  In
January 1942, as part of the general Italian army reorganization in
Africa, the 18th was redesignated the 5th Anti-Aircraft/Anti-Tank
Battalion.  It spent some time assigned to the Brescia Infantry
Division before being transferred to the Ariete Armored Division.

        The first major anti-tank engagement for the 5th Battalion
occurred during the 1942 summer battle for Tobruk, called "Operation
Venezia" by the Italians and the "Battle of Gazala" by the British.
On May 29, the Italian 88 batteries were deployed as part of an
anti-tank screen to protect the rear area and lines of communications
for Ariete and the Afrika Korps.  That afternoon, and again on the
morning of the 30th, the British 2nd and 22nd Armored Brigades,
without prior artillery preparation, made gallant attacks against
the Italian anti-tank screen.  Both brigades suffered heavy losses,
the 2nd breaking off with only 30 tanks remaining out of a starting
compliment of 150.  The 5th Battalion had held firm and lost 49 men
and five of its guns after firing some 1,748 rounds.

        This was followed by a combined armored/infantry attack against
the Italian line on June 4 and 5.  This time the British did fire a
preparatory barrage, but it fell short of the defenders' positions
rather than within it.  Elements of the 15th Panzer Division moved to
support Ariete's left, and there helped defeat the assault of the
British 2nd Highland Light Infantry after the 156 tanks of the 22nd
Armored Brigade were thrown back by the AT line leaving much of its
armor burning on the field.  (During this fight, the remnant of the
British 2nd Armored Brigade received several contradictory orders and
effectively did nothing.)

        These actions, along with the defeat German units inflicted
on the attack of the 32nd Tank Brigade to the northwest, overcame
the British armor superiority, and Rommel was again able to gain the
initiative and advance toward Tobruk.

        Interestingly enough, both the "British Official History"
and historian Michael Carver, in his otherwise well researched book,
"Tobruk", simply refer to these actions as an attempt by the Commonwealth
tankers "to pierce the screen which lay west of them, thought to be
Rommel's rearguard."

        The fact is, this combat was part of what was an essentially
Italian defense -- a fact not noted in most Allied histories.  In other
works, *German* Flak units are often credited with supporting Ariete's
defense.  One might conclude that these oversights were an intentional
attempt to denigrate Italy's efforts in the desert war.
--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
Willard and me spent all day shining up this here barrel...
We take it out in the rain, it's gonna rust up on us...

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 17:44:25 -0500
From:    Joe Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: INF: Japanese sub attacks on US mainland

This is what I was able to find from Bill Thacker's 50YA postings
(boy, do I miss those!)

Monday, 22 June, 1942:
A Japanese submarine shells Fort Stevens, Oregon.  No serious damage
is inflicted.

Friday, 28 August, 1942:
A seaplane from the Japanese submarine I-25 drops incendiary bombs on a
forested region of the state of Oregon.

Wednesday, 9 September, 1942:
A Japanese submarine-based float plane drops bombs near Brookings, Oregon,
starting a small fire.
--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
I'll give you fifty bucks if you'll carry this 50 caliber machine gun.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 11:55:10 EST
From:    Archie Smith <SOASMITH@ECUVM1.BITNET>
Subject: Re: GEN: Re: Einsatz. document

Interesting response from MTLINDEM.  I am sure if one could dig around in
the archieves of the US, one would find documents detailing how to make the
atomic weapons used on Japan more efficient.  The use of air bursts to
maximize destruction was no accident.

I once wrote an Annex in an operations plan directing the effective handling
of US battlefield casualties.  Dispostion was to be a very sterile bureaucratic
operation, designed to limit the impact to combatants and non-combatants alike,
with "proper" solemnity.  Emotions, no; efficiency, yes.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 16:59:00 PST
From:    Stephen Fox <FOXS@AXE.HUMBOLDT.EDU>
Subject: Re: INF: More Mines in Flanders

Someone (Steve Baldwin) asked for more about Flanders, so here goes.

There are many places related to WWI to visit in Flanders (including the
portions of Belgium and Picardy that are ethnically Flemish).  Most of
them are cemeteries, but there are many with trenches, museums, etc.
Certainly a visit to Ieper (Yypres) would be high on your list.  The city
was virtually destroyed in the war, and one of the more remarkable re-
contructions is the Cloth Hall.  Interesting sidelight: a prewar photo-
grapher by the name of Antony had done such a comprehensive job of photo-
graphing the city and environs, that when the money was available for re-
construction the architects relied heavily on his photos to reproduce
the buildings.  They also had some blueprints.  There is a good museum
of the war in Ieper as well, and a MUST-SEE is the Menin gate in the old
city wall.  Therein are carved the names of roughly 53,000 (about the same
number as American dead in Vietnam) Commonwealth soldiers who had simply
disappeared!  It's an impressive reminder of the way people got ground up
in that war, and this is by no means the only tribute to the war's "dis-
appeared."

One of my favorite cemeteries is the German one (you have to work at finding
the German cemeteries in Flanders, just as you do at Normandy) at Langemarck.
Its dark, brooding simplicity is quite a contrast with the flowery Commonwaelth
cemeteries.  Don't miss this one.

You should also visit the French town of Arras, and be sure to see the unique
market square.  Outside is another impressive cemetery and battlefield (trenches,
etc.) where many Canadian troops died.  They planted a tree for each, and it is
a large woods today.  This is also a MUST-SEE.

While visiting the alleged spot where Hitler won his Iron Cross 2d Class, my
brother-in-law spoke alone at some length with the farmer who owns the
property.  This is the same place I wrote about earlier that has the well-
preserved mineshaft.  Seems the farmer told Rony that there are many undis-
closed ammo dumps that the Belgian government knows about but is fearful
of revealing lest it cause a public panic.  When farmers unearth the shells
they have been told by the gov't to put them alongside the road where the
gov't will pick them up.  Do you think the farmers do this?  Nope, they're
not crazy, said the farmer.  They rebury them!  Because of the frequency of
acidental explosions (lightning strikes and scared rabbits, etc.) the Belgian
gov't finally authorized overflights and infared photography to locate the
stuff.  What the pictures showed is why they kept it hush-hush, according to
the farmer: dumps under farms, towns, etc.  To remove the stuff would require
lots of relocation.  So, they have done nothing.  (This story, by the way, is
20 years old.)

Well, you get the picture.  If I can be of more help, say so.

        Steve


********************************************
*       Steve Fox                          *
*       History Department                 *
*       Humboldt State University          *
*       Arcata, CA  95521                  *
*       (707) 826-4788                     *
*       FAX: (707) 826-4496                *
*       FOXS@axe.humboldt.edu              *
********************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 16:27:54 -0800
From:    "Jackson, Christopher R. UC Davis" <crjackson@UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Rohm shot

Wistrich's book is usually pretty reliable, though for some of the more
obscure Nazis you should consult the Encyclopedia of the Third Reich,
published by MacMillan (it's a translation of the German "Das Grosse
Lexikon des Dritten Reiches.").
The Encyclopedia notes that Roehm made it to captain, but after the war
he joined the Epp Freikorps, and helped put down the Munich Republic in
1919.  He met Hitler in 1919 and joined the German Workers' Party (the
party that would later become the NSDAP).  He was given 15 months'
probabtion after the Beer Hall Putsch, and thereafter he aand Hitler
developed differences and split up; Roehm retired from political life.
He went to Bolivia to act as a military advisor there.
In the autumn of 1930 Hitler summoned Roehm back, and made him chief of
staff of the SA after the resignation of Ernst Pfeffer vno Salomon.  He
was appointed Reich Minister without portfolio in December 1933, but his
constatn rantings about a "Second Revolution" and the threat he posed to
the army resulted in his arrest and execution.

No mention about little boys in the encyclopedia, though.

Christopher R. Jackson, UC Davis

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 18:01:33 -0800
From:    "Office TH325, Extension 3566" <RIEGSECKER@UPS.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN: Re: Einsatz. document

Archie Smith wrote:

>Interesting response from MTLINDEM.  I am sure if one could dig around in
>the archieves of the US, one would find documents detailing how to make the
>atomic weapons used on Japan more efficient.  The use of air bursts to
>maximize destruction was no accident.

I just finished reading a biography of John Von Neumann that spent some
time describing how he used his understanding of explosions to determine the
best altitude for maximum destruction.

John Riegsecker

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 22:36:18 -0500
From:    Stan Koper <skoper@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: TAC: 106th Division in the Ardennes

>
> Hello, Stan!
>
> Thanks for your reply. Will try to answer your question.
>
> > Another question to consider:  why did units of the 106th
> > Division abandon prepared positions?  Or did they?
>
>     The 106th Division was not combat proven. It was a green outfit
> that was placed in a "quiet" sector and the idea was to involve them
> in combat gradually. They were completely overwhelmed at St.Vith, and
> if they left prepared positions it was because they had no battle
> experience and given the emotional climate at the time in the Bulge,
> they felt justified.

I understand that the troops themselves were "green", but I
don't know about the officers.  Looking at _Decision at St.
Vith_, the 106th had three regiments facing the German 18th
Volksgrenadier Division, the 422nd (Colonel Descheneaux) near
Schlausenbach, the 423rd (Colonel Cavender), near Bliealf, and
the 424th (Colonel Reid).

Whiting, describing the events on the morning of December 18,
1944, indicates that Colonel Cavender received a message from
division headquarters stating that there was a "Panzer regtl. CT
[?] on Elmerscheid-Sch nberg-St.Vith Rd..."  The message (to
Cavender) went on: "Our mission is to destroy by fire from
dug-in positions S of Sch nberg-St.Vith.  Am, food and water
will be dropped.  When mission accomplished, move to area
St.Vith-Wallerode-Weppler.  Organize and move to W."

Cavender shared the message with Descheneaux and "The two
colonels decided to move off at 10:00 A.M...Abandoning their
defensive positions at last, they were going to attack to their
rear, force the Sch nberg-St.Vith road, and with a bit of luck
break through to St.Vith itself.  It was a bold plan, more
especially as they did not know the terrain, had little room to
              ^^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^^^  ^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^^ ^^
maneuver, and lacked a joint commander for the six battalions of
^^^^^^^^      ^^^^^^ ^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^
infantry and one of artillery involved.  But being green troops,
                                             ^^^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^^
these considerations did not seem to enter their heads."

Whiting goes on to quote from several participants to the effect
that they felt as though they were just wandering around out
there, in the cold, hungry, with little idea of where they were
going or what was ahead (or behind, or to either side), and "by
later afternoon, the 422nd was lost."

The 423rd ran into Germans, and their advance "bogged down."

>   In the
> > Korean War, it seems clear that the "rapid withdrawal" in the
> > face of overwhelming numbers of Chinese troops was sound tactics,
> > even if it looked suspiciously like a "rout".  But I don't know
> > if it was in _Decision at St. Vith_, or _Death of a Division_,
> > but the impression I had was that the 106th was just wandering
> > around out there.
>
>     Sounds like the former book.

Yep.
>
>
>     Please let me know if you received this message. I would
> appreciate it very much. Also, please comment.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Terry
>
> Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
> P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
> fax 806-371-5370
>
Other points:

     Whiting puts the total of men who surrendered from the
106th at 10,000 (someone had mentioned 6,000).
     Alan Jones' son, Alan Jones Jr., was a Lieutenant with the
423rd Battalion, and was captured with the rest.
     Colonel Descheneaux had no combat experience, but
Colonel Cavender did (WWI).

One thing worth remembering about the structure of the army in
WWII was that it had a strong caste system, and the expression
"rank has its privileges" had *real* meaning.  There was a great
deal of resentment toward officers and their privileges on the
part of many enlisted men, particularly the better educated
draftees and enlistees that started coming in in 1941.  Thus,
when the Germans were forming up the captured soldiers to march
them to the rear, "...an unshaven infantryman...[said]...'I've
got a message for you, Colonel'...[and]...sticking out his
tongue, the GI gave his former commander a Bronx cheer."

James Jones' _From Here to Eternity_ gives a good account of the
pre-war situation, but I think he's too optimistic in the end,
when he suggests that the rapid expansion of the army after
Pearl Harbor would bring a halt to the system.  But that's
another topic!

Stan Koper
skoper@netcom.com

      This message brought to you by uqwk 1.7 and Yarn 0.57

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 21:00:08 -0600
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Attempt to contact B-25 crew

In message <01H9L3THHCL8DSXUVK@VX.CIS.UMN.EDU> World War II Discussion List
writes:
> I realize this is a long shot, but I am trying to contact anyone who was
> a crew member on a B-25 during the war.
>
> Can anyone help me?  Please respond privately.

How many would you like?  :-)

Do you want online people or USnail/phone type contacts?


--
Robert J. Granvin                                             rjg@stat.umn.edu
University of Minnesota, School of Statistics
         "I'm my father?  I'm my mother?  I'm chipped beef on toast?"

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 22:37:44 EST
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor,
         Marist Coll" <JZML@MARISTB.BITNET>
Subject: Re: INF: Japanese sub attacks on US mainland

>
> Friday, 28 August, 1942:
> A seaplane from the Japanese submarine I-25 drops incendiary bombs on a
> forested region of the state of Oregon.
> Joe Barone
> m1b@ssd.ray.com
> I'll give you fifty bucks if you'll carry this 50 caliber machine gun.

It was in response to the danger of such attacks and the loss of wood as
war material that the US Forest Service created the Smokey Bear
anti-forest fire
campaign. Smokey is 50 this year! Is there any US citizen on this list
who can not complete this phrase: "Remember only you....."

Jonah Triebwasser
Adjunct Instructor
Marist College
Dyson Building (Adult Education)
Poughkeepsie, New York12601
Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
E-Mail: jzml@maristb.marist.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 22:51:51 -0600
From:    Jon Stevens <jstevens@DAVID.WHEATON.EDU>
Subject: Triv: re: Steiner

This is worth about a Rouble but here is some trivia for the Steiner
discussion:

It has been a couple of years since I read _The Last 100 Days_
but I think it is reported in there that the last message sent from -the
bunker- was, 'where is Wenck, where is Steiner'

by the way, the game at the Byrd ftp site was quite enjoyable.  Any more
out there?

Jon Stevens e-mail jstevens@david.wheaton.edu

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 3 Mar 1994 to 4 Mar 1994
***********************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 4 Mar 1994 to 5 Mar 1994
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Status: O

There are 18 messages totalling 806 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Civil Air Patrol (2)
  2. GAME: German Eagle Vs. Russian Bear
  3. GAME: Simulations
  4. GAME: German Eagle Vs. Russian Bear .. 1
  5. Rohm shot (2)
  6. ARC: Simulation Games at byrd.
  7. GEN: Re: Einsatz. document (2)
  8. Ben Olds Flamed Over Ploesti
  9. WEAP: Peenemunde, V2 etc
 10. Polesti raids misinformation
 11. To Terry Moore about Peenemunde
 12. The 106th, the Ardennes, and a friend of von
 13. BOOKS: new books on WW II
 14. QUEST: FDR/Advance Knowledge of PH (2)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 23:36:50 -0600
From:    Jon Stevens <jstevens@DAVID.WHEATON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Civil Air Patrol

On Mon, 28 Feb 1994, Joseph Wolm wrote:

> I have some very interesting facts about U-boats on the East coast as
> well as Japanese subs on the wst coast.
>
> Two days before the bombing of pearl harbor a group was founded called
> the Civil Air Patrol.  This organization was founded by citizens who
> owned or had access to air planes and where concerned with the continentil
> United States
> They had many gaols and most of them still exist today.  When they where
> founded there where too different perposes .
> 1- to teach young people how to be good leaders and affective citizens.
> 2- to in times of war to field a force of communications and reconicence.
>
> I wont get into real deep details about the orginization if nobody is
> interested......
> But,
> during world war two the civil air patrol flew reconisence for the coast
> gaurd and airforce to locate submarines.
> They where VERY successfull in locating submarines.
> Unfortunatley the navy , airforce, and coast gaurd where VERY slow in
> responding to there findings.
> The people who ran civil air patrol became extremly annoyed with the
> slow reaction times of the military.
> They hounded the military to allow them to carry bombs on there tiny
> commercial air-craft....
> AMAZINGLY the govt. agrreed to allow this and subbsequently the civil
> air patrol bombed and recieved 5 confirmed HITS on enemy submarines.
> They now today are credited with 2 kills.
>
> Curiously enough the civil air patrol is the only instance I can find
> where American civilians actually participated in military operations.
> REMEMBER this organization at the time had no direct link to the military.
>
> if anyone is interested in this subject send me mail or reply,
>
> respecfully,
> Joseph M. E. Wolm
>


Joseph,

My Grandfather was a Col. in the CAP in Nebraska.  He was in training to
be a fighter pilot just when the Great War ended and after that always
kept his flying skills up.  While there wasn't much enemy action in the
middle of Nebraska the CAP was busy there too.  I will call my
Grandmother to find out more info but I think that he flew a number of
missions to find planes that had crashed on training missions.  My mom
was also in the CAP and accompanied him most of the time.

Another interesting note: at the airfield in North Platte, Neb, where my
Grandfather had two planes, his partner in one plane was a Japanese man.
They had purchased a plane that was not in very good shape and was
painted bright yellow.  His Japenese partner had christened it _The
Yellow Peril_ after a dangerous landing and they thought this to be a
pretty good joke.  Anyhow, after Pearl this man was prevented from
setting foot on the airfield even though he owned half the plane.

I would appreciate any info on the CAP. My address is

jstevens@david.wheaton.edu

Jon Stevens

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 23:05:46 -0600
From:    Jon Stevens <jstevens@DAVID.WHEATON.EDU>
Subject: Re: GAME: German Eagle Vs. Russian Bear

On Thu, 3 Mar 1994, Larry & Kim Jewell wrote:



> While we're on the topic, would a "simulations" directory be appropriate
> for byrd? I have one or two other games that are fairly accurate and if
> Lou's game can be archived we could add that (if there are no objections?)
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Larry J
>
That would be most excellent!
I have seen quite a few war games for the old Apple ii back in the stone
age but have not been able to locate many good ones for IBM type
machines.  Any suggestions from the list?

Jon Stevens e-mail jstevens@david.wheaton.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 5 Mar 1994 01:35:58 -0400
From:    John Horner <HORNERJA%SDELVB@SNYBUFVA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU>
Subject: Re: GAME: Simulations

Jon,
I agree, I would love to get anyone else's opinion on a computer simulation
before I shell out $50 to check it out.  I have had both good luck and bad
luck in reading the boxes and handing over the cash.  With that in mind,
I guess I'll start.

1.  Game "HIGH COMMAND" by Three-Sixty:  Grand Strategy game of WWII. In my
opinion, the game is both too complicated and too easy.  In terms of it's
complexity, I still can't figure out the production/research system.  I
think that this is potentially one of the most intersting aspect of any WWII
grand strategy game, and I am very dissapointed with the convoluted system
found here.  You can set the system to do manufacturing and research for
you, but then you can't control what you get.  Personally, I like to build
lots of paratroopers, but I can't really do that with out running the
country into a depression as I screw up the economy.  Also, while I'm on the
negative side, I also find that it's very tedious to transfer units from
one place to another - it takes forever.  On the "too easy" side, I have to
admit that I have never lost.  Even the first (learning) game that I played.
This has little to do with my tactical prowess, but rather the computer
seems incapable of making an intelligent move.  Even at the highest skill
setting, the computer still can't prevent Sealion from succeding (as it sends
much needed Inf and Arm units to Torch, just in time to let the Germans from
across the channel invade defenseless London).  In another odd example,
I just finished a (short) game in which I, as the allies, held the Germans
at bay in the low countries until Winter 1940, when the computer transfered
most of it's units to the Balkans to knock out my minor ally Bulgaria.  Berlin
was mine in two turns.  It was silly.

Well, I didn't mean to bash the good people who developed this game.  It IS
attractively portrayed and the graphics are well done (and they are very
nice on the phone), but all in all I would not recommend this game.  Maybe
HIGH COMMAND II will be better.

In closing, I would very much like to hear other comments on other WWII games
that are out there.  I can't yet download with our current computer system
here at my college, but PC games are very attractive to me.

Regards to all,

John Horner
SUNY Delhi, New York

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 4 Mar 1994 22:13:14 -0500
From:    Bob Smart <bsmart@SMART.COM>
Subject: Re: GAME: German Eagle Vs. Russian Bear .. 1

> >
> > Lou writes:
> > > OK, sports fans, get right over to your nearest university/
> > >   research library.  The revised edition of my playable AND
> > >   historical game is available on microfiche (only) for your
> > >   perusal on the U.S. Govt.-sponsored Educational Resources
> > >   Information Center (ERIC) collection.
> >
> > Thanks for the opening, Lou.  :-)
> >
> > Speaking of games, did anyone download that rusfront.zip game from
> > byrd?  I tried to but it would not unzip properly.  I tried two
> > different versions of PKUNZIP with no luck.  Does byrd have the
> > correct version that I can use and if so where is it located?
> >
> > Dazed and Confused, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil
> >
> Try pkz204g.exe in the /pub/history/utils directory at byrd. I've uploaded
> rusfront, tested it on Unix, downloaded it and tested it on my PC and
> it seemed fine.
>
> While we're on the topic, would a "simulations" directory be appropriate
> for byrd? I have one or two other games that are fairly accurate and if
> Lou's game can be archived we could add that (if there are no objections?)
>
> Thoughts?

Larry
there is a conflict simulation list being run out of (University of Alberta?)
I do not believe they have any archiving capability. I think archiving
historically oriented games would be appropriate for byrd if the space is
there. (We may find that simulations end up taking a fair amount of space for
each one)

Bob Smart (bsmart@smart.com)

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 5 Mar 1994 07:44:55 -0500
From:    "Max C." <maxc@URSUS1.URSUS.MAINE.EDU>
Subject: Civil Air Patrol

The Civil Air Patrol was officially created by the Office of Civilian
Defense on 1 December 1941.  The executive order was signed by OCD
director Fiorello H. LaGuardia. The missions of this organization from
the outset were designated as:
    Coastal Patrol: Antisubmarine patrols in light aircraft equipped
                    (if lucky enough) with bombs and depth charges.
    Forest Patrol: Early warning reporting of forest fires.
    Border Patrol: Security patrols fo the US-Mexican Border.
    Courier Service: Airlifting crucial parts, materiel and personnel.
                     Ferrying aircraft and flying emergency relief.
    Tow-target Duty: Towing target "sleeves" for anti-aircraft artillery
                     training.  Also training searchlight crews (even
                     more risky that target towing).
    Search and Rescue: Searching for downed aircraft and lost persons.
                       CAP ground teams would assist in rescuing the
                       crews.

Because it handled these missions well the organization was transferred
to the War Department on April 29, 1943 and attached to the Army Air
Corps.

CAP personnel wore regular US Army uniforms with red epaulets and
distinctive insignia.  Only those assigned to active duty with military
units were paid.

CAP aircraft were usually privately owned and donated for service by
their owner/pilots.  Only later in the war did CAP begin to recieve "war
weary" L-craft from the AAF.

Non-flying personnel served as guards for airfields, navigation aids and
downed military aircraft.  Others served as SAR ground teams...the
Nevada wing operated a large mounted unit for this duty.  Later in the
war CAP began actively training young people in aviation fundamentals to
provide future pilots for the AAF under a cadet program.

CAP is believed to have been instrumental in sinking two U-Boats and
summoning forces to sink many more.  But its real service was simply in
its deterent effect...those little yellow airplanes flitting all over
the place did indeed scare the sub commanders farther out to sea.

The History of the United States Naval Operations in WW2 (by S.E.
Morison) THE BATTLE OF THE ATLANTIC (SEPT.1939-MAY 1943} (1947 Little,
Brown & Co.) had this to say about the CAP:

"There was nothing temporary or token about the CAP. In the Eastern and
Gulf Sea Frontiers, the CAP flew 64,000 plane hours during the first
five months of 1943, as compared with 27,000 plane hours by the Army Air
Force, and 72,000 plane hours by Navy planes. If comparative statistics
were available for 1942, the would show an even greater relative
contrbution by the amateurs."

A footnote states that:

"The total number of hours flown by CAP on coastal patrol from 5 March
1942 to Sept. 1943 was 244,000; total number of missions flown, 86,685,
of which 5684 were convoy missions. It had reported the positions of 173
enemy submarines, reported 91 vessels in distress, and rafts or
lifeboats containing 363 survivors."

CAP became a peacetime relief organization in 1946 and became a
permanent civilian auxiliary to the US Air Force in May 1948.

It is one of the few WW2 organizations still in full operation.  Besides
its cadet program, military transport duties and search and rescue work
it is also currently active in the "war on drugs" flying border patrol
and providing airlift for the agencies concerned.

Max C. Calderwood
University of Southern Maine
Gorham, ME
MAXC@URSUS1.URSUS.MAINE.EDU

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 5 Mar 1994 08:20:51 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: Rohm shot

> In the autumn of 1930 Hitler summoned Roehm back, and made him chief of
> staff of the SA after the resignation of Ernst Pfeffer vno Salomon.  He
> was appointed Reich Minister without portfolio in December 1933, but his
> constatn rantings about a "Second Revolution" and the threat he posed to
> the army resulted in his arrest and execution.

Wasn't Pfeffer von Salomon Jewish, or from a Jewish background?  I vaguely
recall "Order of the Death's Head" mentioning this, but it could have been
another book instead.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 5 Mar 1994 08:33:42 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: ARC: Simulation Games at byrd.

I've had enough positive input to make me think that a simulations directory
would be a reasonable addition to byrd.

Requirements will be that the games be as historically accurate as possible
in order to reproduce the original campaign or battle and to allow
for "what if" scenarios. No commercial software which is not clearly labeled
"shareware" will be allowed.  All uploads of this type must be made to
byrd.mu.wvnet.edu, in /pub/history/submissions. Games for any platform
(MSDOS, MAC, UNIX, AMIGA, etc.) will be accepted and will be placed in their
own subdirectory. Each upload must be accompanied by a text file explaining
the game (the "readme" or intro from the game may suffice) or it goes into
the bit-bucket.

If you have something you want to submit and have questions about how to
upload or download, send me e-mail.  I'll keep the list updated as we
get items..

Larry J

JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 5 Mar 1994 10:43:37 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <kc5318@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN: Re: Einsatz. document

>Archie Smith wrote:
>
>>Interesting response from MTLINDEM.  I am sure if one could dig around in
>>the archieves of the US, one would find documents detailing how to make the
>>atomic weapons used on Japan more efficient.  The use of air bursts to
>>maximize destruction was no accident.
>
>I just finished reading a biography of John Von Neumann that spent some
>time describing how he used his understanding of explosions to determine the
>best altitude for maximum destruction.
>
>John Riegsecker
>

Archie and John,
     What you two are describing is the ultimate implication of the Operations
and Systems Analysis (ORSA) approach to war, especially the atomic stuff.  The
AAF in WWII really pioneers it with studies of ground support in North Africa
and Curtis LeMay's use of it to perfect tactics over Japan.  He had his ORSA
section analyze weather, target dispersal, and other conditions of key Japanese
urban targets and switched from precision bombing to mass fire raids to achieve
effectiveness and efficiency.  He did not initially resort to the raids to kill
civilians, he wanted to create big enough fires to leap fire breaks around key
factories, but that became the main effect.  In Robert Doughty's Leavenworth
Paper Number 1 THE EVOLUTION OF US ARMY TACTICAL DOCTRINE, he shows how
firepower formulas began to dominate land warfare, too, after WWII.  But the
USAF has remained the most committed to the technical ORSA approach to war,
which tends to ignore nonquantifiable human and historical factors.

                                        LTC Con Crane
                                        USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 5 Mar 1994 10:56:12 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <kc5318@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN: Re: Einsatz. document

Archie and John,
     I made a typo, ORSA stands for Operations Research and Systems Analysis.

                                             LTC Con Crane
                                             USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 5 Mar 1994 11:39:51 EST
From:    MR SKIP WILDER <PHSP11A@PRODIGY.COM>
Subject: Re: Ben Olds Flamed Over Ploesti

        An excellent book on the Ploesti raids is _Ploesti_ by James Dugan
and Carroll Stewart (Random House, New York:  1962).   It discusses all the
raids including the first big unescorted raid on 1 Aug 1943.
                        Skip
 -----------------------------------------------------------
 |    Skip Wilder              |                           |
 |    phsp11a@prodigy.com      |"The road to hell is paved |
 |    FAX (703)528-2103        | with good intentions."    |
 |    McLean, Virginia, U.S.A. |                           |
 -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 5 Mar 1994 10:48:31 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Rohm shot

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Hello, Christopher!

Hope you are having a great weekend.

> Why?  Because he was of insufficiently elevated circumstances?  That's a
> question that I've wondered about.  Were there a lot of people from modest
> backgrounds (middleclass, Jews, etc.) as commissioned officers in reserve
> formations?

    You ask about his having been commissioned during the war. I am
not privy at this point in time to the exact date of his
commissioning, but I would bet it was rather late in the war, I'd say
after 1916. With casualties being what they were on both sides in
WWI, standards had to be relaxed. They were in France, England and in
Germany. Many people began to receive commissions who didn't fit the
"profile" of the Prussian officer. Thus people like Roehm were able
to obtain a commission that under other circumstances would have been
denied him. If you remember, the only people allowed to be considered
for commissioning before 1914 were only those of noble birth in
Prussia. Those from Bavaria of noble birth for some reason usually
wound up in the artillery, after commissioning. Again, this was
before 1914.

> I'll do a subject and title search of the Cuyahoga County Library
system when > I finish here.

    That would be most interesting, and please post. It would be
revealing, I am certain, and thanks in advance.

> I consider it a classic.  Anyone who can read that book and claim that the
> holocaust is a hoax, would have been euthanized by the nazis as a mental
> defective himself.

    Regarding your reference, I have no doubt about the validity of
your high praise for this book. Have you also read George H. Stein's
"Waffen-SS"? That is another that is worth reading. And I agree with
you that those who would even hint that the "Holocaust" was a hoax
ought to be done away with themselves. I just can't imagine how
anyone can blatantly overlook the facts. It is like saying that WWII
never happened, and who knows, given the IQ level of some people in
this country, we may even hear that at some point.

 > > > As was Himmler who hated and feared him even more than the
> > Wehrmacht leaders.

> I wonder what things would have been like if Roehm had gained control of the
> armed forces.  The standards of the SA were quite low, certainly nothing like
> those of the SS.

    God only knows, but you can bet that standards would have fallen
to all-time lows. I have often wondered if WWII would have occurred,
had Roehm gained supremacy. He was wanting a "second revolution", and
it would be very difficult to imagine that Roehm and the SA would
have behaved normally after gaining all they had hoped for. It seems
to me that you would have to do something, because with such a large
force under arms, you wouldn't be allowed to stand still. Perhaps
conquest would have been the result, but, given the state of the
economy in 1932 in Germany, I can't see how Roehm and the SA could
have maintained the status quo. The Army may have been able to
control him or at least some sort of working agreement or a coalition
would have had to have been formed to keep the country from falling
apart.

    Thanks, again, Christopher. You are an interesting conversation
partner. Please write again, and please offer me your thoughts on
mine.

    Take care.

    Terry



Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 5 Mar 1994 10:55:18 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Peenemunde, V2 etc

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Hello, Gudmundur!

I have access to all the info on your questions, but you are asking
for a lot that cannot be posted to you in one sitting. I have a
breakdown of all the projects the Germans had on the drawing
boards,not counting what they had actually brought to a concrete
experimental level. Can you be a little more specific about the kinds
of weapons in which you are interested? I will try to post to you
some Alpha-Numeric designations of what I have and we can go for
there. If you want this in a private e-mail format, please advise, or
I will post to the list.

Please let me know.

Terry
-------------------------------------------------------------------
 >         Hey
all >
> Does anyone  have any info on Peenemunde or the Projects concieved
> there? Like on the development of the A-4 (later called V-2) and the
> submerge-launched missles fired from U.511 (KorvKpt Fritz Steinhoff) on
> the summer of 1942.
>
> Also, what were V-3 and V-4? I know that either one was a huge cannon
> aimed for London I think. Any info?
>
> Did any of the other "secret-weapons" exist or were under development?
> Like Death rays and stuff like that? Or was it just hype :) No chemical
> stuff?
>
>
> Bye
>
>
>
> Gudmundur J. Helgason
>
> E-mail:    gummihe@ismennt.is
>

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 5 Mar 1994 11:11:41 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Polesti raids misinformation

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Hello, Jesse!

Here goes with the info on the sources I have and the date for the
big raid on Ploesti, Rumania.

    Books:

        Low-Level Mission by Leon Wolff. Goes into great detail on
the history of all the raids on Ploesti.

       Combat Cameraman by Jerry J. Joswick. An excellent book, and I
stand corrected on one thing I posted yesterday. Mr. Joswick was the
only combat cameraman to survive the Ploesti Raid out of 16 who made
the trip. I had said 5 but 16 is the real number. This gives an
excellent idea of the impact of the losses suffered on that one raid.


    Ploesti by Carroll Stewart and James Dugan. This book goes into
quite a bit of detail of the incarceration and treatment of the
American airmen who were captured from their downed or damaged
aircraft. An excellent book to read with the other two.

    The date of the big raid on Ploesti, Rumania which originated
from Benghazi, North Africa was on 1 August 1943.


> Thanx so much

    You are quite welcome and if I can be of further service, please
let me know.

    Terry



Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 5 Mar 1994 18:11:03 +0000
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <gummihe@ISMENNT.IS>
Subject: To Terry Moore about Peenemunde

        Hey Terry Moore

Thanks for your great offer, I would be interested in almost anything
that you can get me, Peenemunde or not :) I have horrible times getting
any library info here and I only have money to get a dozen or so U-boat
books a year :) Peenemunde is a special interest to me for the V-2 and
the Laffenwertz(?) project. Can you send me both your e-mail address and
a list (if possible) of what you have? I would be most grateful to say
the least.

PS: How come do your posts look different than the others? Are you
e-mails re-routed to the list or something?

PS II: I also saw you offering something about Balck, my favorite
Wehrmacht officer, Could you also send me list of info in him/his
commands etc.?

I think that this would be best continued off the list as I dont think
most members care for this info :)


Thanks again.


Gudmundur J. Helgason

E-mail:    gummihe@ismennt.is

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 5 Mar 1994 15:24:18 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <kc5318@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: The 106th, the Ardennes, and a friend of von

Terry,
     Reference your questions about civilianization of the academies, the
argument being made by Sen. Nunn and others is that the Academies are too
"insular and isolated" from the educational mainstream with just military
faculty.  The pressure is being put on USAFA and USMA because the Naval Academy
now has more than 50% civilian faculty.  The initial Senate
legislation actually set that same goal for us, but it was changed later
after consultations with the Academies.    Our actual goal now is 25% civilian
faculty by the year 2002.

                                             LTC Con Crane
                                             USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 5 Mar 1994 18:38:51 -0230
From:    OLAF <olaf@KEAN.UCS.MUN.CA>
Subject: BOOKS: new books on WW II

Here are a few new books on the WW II-era which have either been
released recently or are coming out soon, according to some
publishers' catalogues that I just received.

>From Macmillan (in England) / St. Martin's Press (New York):

     Erik Levi, _Music in the Third Reich_ (ISBN 0-333-47116-4;
     March 1994); looks at the use of music as propaganda.

     Keith Sainsbury, _Churchill and Roosevelt at War: The War
     They Fought and the Peace They Hoped to Make_ (ISBN 0-333-
     48042-2; March 1994)

     Youli Sun, _China and the Origins of the Pacific War, 1931-
     1941_ (ISBN 0-31209010-2; January 1994)

     E. Bruce Reynolds, _Thailand and Japan's Southern Advance,
     1940-1945_ (ISBN 0-333-61496-8; March 1994)

     David Reynolds, Warren F. Kimball & A.O. Chubarian (eds.),
     _Allies At War: The Soviet, American, and British
     Experience, 1939-1945_ (ISBN 0-333-61503-4; February 1994)

     Stephen A. Garrett, _Ethics and Airpower in World War II:
     The British Bombing of German Cities_ (ISBN 0-31208683-0;
     January 1994); "analyzes the attitudes which various people
     and groups in Britain took toward this strategy as it was
     unfolding. It pays particular attention to the small band of
     dissenters against such bombing. At the same time the book
     offers its own moral critique of area bombing, not just on
     tradition ethical grounds but also in terms of its dubious
     military rationale."

from Routledge (London) / Routledge, Chapman, Hall (New York)

     David Cesarani (ed.), _The Final Solution: Origins and
     Implementation_ (ISBN 0-415-09954-4; February 1994); "The
     essays challenge many accepted notions about the behaviour
     of the German army, how much the Germans knew, and the
     response of the non-Jewish populations in Occupied Europe
     and the West."

from Naval Institute Press (Annapolis, MD)

     Paul Stillwell (ed.), _Assault on Normandy: First-Person
     Accounts from the Sea Services_ (ISBN 1-55750-781-3; May)

     Otto Giese & James E. Wise, Jr., _Shooting the War: Memoirs
     of a World War II U-Boat Officer_ (ISBN 1-55750-3079; March)

     Gaylord T.M. Kelshall, _The U-Boat War in the Caribbean_
     (ISBN 1-55750-452-0; May)

     Harry Holmes, _The Last Patrol_ (ISBN 1-85310-414-0; March);
     tells the story of the fifty-two US submarines lost during
     the war.

     John Winton, _ULTRA in the Pacific_ (ISBN 1-55750-856-9;
     March); "how breaking Japanese codes affected the naval
     campaigns in the Pacific."

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Mar 1994 09:56:50 +0700
From:    "Peter E. Beal" <beal@NWG.NECTEC.OR.TH>
Subject: Re: QUEST: FDR/Advance Knowledge of PH

On Thu, 3 Mar 1994, Terry Moore wrote:

>
> > Did FDR deliberately sacrifice our boys at Pearl Harbor in order to defeat all
> > remanants of isolationism at home and enter the War. I ask because the America
> n
> > people, in their fury, wanted the Japs punished, and quickly. But FDR quickly
> > adopted a "Europe first" policy that really did not make sense.
>
>     The answer to that is no. A book published in the 60's, I think,
> took the approach, that FDR deliberately allowed PH to be bombed to
> get us into the war. The book was called "Back Door to Pearl Harbor"
> by Feis. It is tempting to take that approach, but according to
> Gordon Prange's excellent book dealing with that subject and others,
> BTW, there is no evidence which remotely suggests that FDR
> deliberately sacrificed PH to get us into the war. Toland has gone on
> record stating that FDR did have prior knowledge that it would be
> bombed, as did General Marshall, but, as you know, many many things
> occurred to prevent PH from being warned itself. Too many things
> happened over too long a period to go into real detail on this. The
> upshot was, we knew, that is to say, FDR, General Marshall, Admiral
> Stark, etc., that PH would be bombed. The problem was discerning and
> finding out precisely when and on what date.
>
FDR, Marshall and Stark knew that PH would be bombed, but not exactly
when.  If that is so and the precautions taken were what they were, i.e.
next to nil, then somebody is at fault.  And who it was should be easily
decernable.

If the only question was when, then I cannot understand why, given the
importance of PH:

1.      Every possible means and avenue of attack had not been analyzed.
There is no evidence that this had been done.

2.      Every precaution was not taken, even in rudimentry form, e.g.
antisubmarine nets, or anti torpedo nets around the anchorages.

3.      A more intensive recon flight program instituted.

If these things, at relatively low cost, were not insituted, then either
FDR et al:

1.      Thought the attack would come some time far into the future (as
per Sun Tzu, I am giving you an out);

2.      Were incompetent;

3.      Were deliberately putting PH on the block (but an attack, even an
attempted attack or less than totally successful attack, would have
served the purpose);

4.      Didn't know or think it could happen.


> The same was true on PH itself. PH was relying heavily on
> communications from Washington that were never reliable, and the info
> extant at the time was faulty in itself. By the time Washington could
> even let PH know when it was to be bombed, it was too late to prevent
> the attack, in fact, the telegram announcing the impending raid
> arrived after the attack was already completed.
>

Yes, the telegram arrived after the attack was completed (or at least
while it was underway), but there were other means of communication.  It
was a poor choice of communications.  Or was that choice deliberate and
thus evidence of a conspiracy?

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 5 Mar 1994 23:12:47 EST
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor,
         Marist Coll" <JZML@MARISTB.BITNET>
Subject: Re: QUEST: FDR/Advance Knowledge of PH

Dear List Folk:
Those interested in this or other FDR subjects might want to inquire
of the fine folks at the FDR Library and Home in Hyde Park, New York
(just a hop, skip and a jump from where I sit tonight. Their new e-mail
address is:
fdrl@maristb.bitnet
or
fdrl@maristb>marist.edu
If you are ever in the area, spend a day...it is well worth a visit.
Tourist information is available at 1-800-FDR-VISIT (1-800-337-8474)
Regards to you all from the thawing Hudson River Valley of New York!

Jonah Triebwasser
Adjunct Instructor
Marist College
Dyson Building (Adult Education)
Poughkeepsie, New York12601
Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
E-Mail: jzml@maristb.marist.edu

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 4 Mar 1994 to 5 Mar 1994
***********************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 5 Mar 1994 to 6 Mar 1994
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Status: O

There are 19 messages totalling 584 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. USMA faculty -> 25% civilian (?)
  2. INF: MILHST-L
  3. Rohm shot
  4. QUEST: Malmedy Massacre
  5. "Nazi": Offensive Word???? (5)
  6. Gen:  PC on my PC (2)
  7. WEAP: Peenemunde, V2 etc
  8. MEDIA: More Belgian WWII follow-ups...
  9. Eisenhower & German POWs (2)
 10. TAC: Convoys vs. U-Boats
 11. Civil Air Patrol
 12. Franco's Spain & The Axis Powers
 13. B-26s

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 5 Mar 1994 21:37:35 -0600
From:    Lou Coatney <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: USMA faculty -> 25% civilian (?)

So Con,  any slots for wargames-librarians/historians?  :-)

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Mar 1994 10:24:23 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: INF: MILHST-L

The correct address:

MILHST-L@UKANVM.CC.UKANS.EDU

(MILHST-L@UKANVM.BITNET should also work)

To subscribe you should send mail to listserv at the above address(es).

Larry J


JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Mar 1994 10:39:25 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: Rohm shot

> Hello, Christopher!
>
> Hope you are having a great weekend.

Tolerable, aside form a cold.  Likewise to you.

> > Why?  Because he was of insufficiently elevated circumstances?  That's a
> > question that I've wondered about.  Were there a lot of people from modest
> > backgrounds (middleclass, Jews, etc.) as commissioned officers in reserve
> > formations?
>
>     You ask about his having been commissioned during the war. I am
> not privy at this point in time to the exact date of his
> commissioning, but I would bet it was rather late in the war, I'd say
> after 1916. With casualties being what they were on both sides in
> WWI, standards had to be relaxed. They were in France, England and in
> Germany. Many people began to receive commissions who didn't fit the
> "profile" of the Prussian officer. Thus people like Roehm were able
> to obtain a commission that under other circumstances would have been
> denied him. If you remember, the only people allowed to be considered
> for commissioning before 1914 were only those of noble birth in
> Prussia. Those from Bavaria of noble birth for some reason usually
> wound up in the artillery, after commissioning. Again, this was
> before 1914.
>
I'm still wondering what the standards for reservists were.  Maybe I'll try to
find out when I get a chance.

> > I'll do a subject and title search of the Cuyahoga County Library
> system when > I finish here.
>
>     That would be most interesting, and please post. It would be
> revealing, I am certain, and thanks in advance.
>
I didn't find much directly related to him.  I think I found one or two
books that I didn't already know about.  The library computer left a message
on my answering machine, so I'll see what came in yesterday.

> > I consider it a classic.  Anyone who can read that book and claim that the
> > holocaust is a hoax, would have been euthanized by the nazis as a mental
> > defective himself.
>
>     Regarding your reference, I have no doubt about the validity of
> your high praise for this book. Have you also read George H. Stein's
> "Waffen-SS"? That is another that is worth reading. And I agree with

I'll check this one out.  Thanks.

> economy in 1932 in Germany, I can't see how Roehm and the SA could
> have maintained the status quo. The Army may have been able to
> control him or at least some sort of working agreement or a coalition
> would have had to have been formed to keep the country from falling
> apart.

It could have turned into a horrible botch, like most of Mussolini's
escapades.

>     Thanks, again, Christopher. You are an interesting conversation
> partner. Please write again, and please offer me your thoughts on
> mine.
>
Thanks for your suggestions.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Mar 1994 13:25:12 EST
From:    Chuck Weckesser <71233.677@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: QUEST: Malmedy Massacre

I am familiar with the murder of American GI's by the Nazi's (Mr Saifen might
find the word "Nazi" objectionable, so I really mean "Germans") at Malmedy.

To the very best of anyone else's knowledge, were other American POW's either
murdered or mistreated by the Wehrmacht. Also, was Hitler's infamous "Nacht und
Nebel" decree ever carried out?

It is an established fact that our boys who were taken prisoner in the far east
were horribly mistreated by the "Japanese," although it seems that as time goes
on, how quickly some of us are willing to forget.

Regards,

Chuck

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Mar 1994 13:29:15 EST
From:    Chuck Weckesser <71233.677@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: "Nazi": Offensive Word????

I just received a "private" e-mail that using the word "Nazi" is an "ethnic"
attack on present day Germans. FYI. . .

Regards,

CJW

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Mar 1994 13:58:08 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: "Nazi": Offensive Word????

>
> I just received a "private" e-mail that using the word "Nazi" is an "ethnic"
> attack on present day Germans. FYI. . .
>
> Regards,
>
> CJW
>
Discussion of WWII without using the word "Nazi"? Maybe the word "death"
should be banned to avoid offending people.

I do not allow slurs to be posted on this list (repeat offenders will be
deleted). If anyone equates the present German general population with
the Nazis I would agree that that is offensive. However, used in context
of the war, "Nazi" is a word that is both valid and accurate when speaking
of members of the National German Socialist Workers' Party.  If anyone calls
a living person, or a dead one for that matter, a "Nazi" then you had better
be  able to back that claim up with documentation.

The war was a brutal, ugly affair, something people tend to forget.
"Sanitizing" the war would result in making the deaths of so many people
futile.

Santayana must be spinning in his grave.

Larry J

JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Mar 1994 14:16:37 EST
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor,
         Marist Coll" <JZML@MARISTB.BITNET>
Subject: Re: "Nazi": Offensive Word????

> I just received a "private" e-mail that using the word "Nazi" is an "ethnic"
> attack on present day Germans. FYI. . .
>
> Regards,
>
> CJW
My God is there no end to the damage the acolytes of political
correctness will to do the truth and to the language? There are
plenty of WWII era Nazis alive today in Germany and there are
lots of neoNazis in Germany today. Just have your email sender
take a look at the recent newspapers. Germany deserves to be
ashamed of what it did just 50 short years ago and they (and we)
need to be reminded of it as often as possible so as to prevent that
butchery from happening again. I am amazed that someone would tell you
or imply that the term Nazi should no longer be used! Just my 2 cents.
I should probably have ignored it the way you have, but I can't
stand too much of this PC nonsense!
Regards-

Jonah Triebwasser
Adjunct Instructor
Marist College
Dyson Building (Adult Education)
Poughkeepsie, New York12601
Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
E-Mail: jzml@maristb.marist.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Mar 1994 13:57:00 LCL
From:    SCHERRER TIM A <SCHERRET.TRANSCOM@TRANSCOM.SAFB.AF.MIL>
Subject: Gen:  PC on my PC

Political Correctness on my Personal Computer.

If the Nazi offends Germans, then what is our option?  Germans with
Fascist leanings?  Middle European Hitlerites? Fascist sympathetic
Teutons?

 I would be interested to see who ever sent the mail speak up and state
their position to the group.   Whenever I use the word Nazi I am
referring to people during WWII, not today.  The Nazi's called themselves
Nazi's, and quite frankly, I don't care if I offend a Nazi by calling
them one.  It seems to me that it is more a comment on the person making
the claim of offensive language, and an unwillingness to accept the past
for what it was rather than a "PC foul".

On the other side,  I am a bit encouraged at the same time that Germans
are offended by the word Nazi.  In the day of growing xenophobia in
Germany, I  find it refreshing that at least one person refuses to
identify with the former regime.

I'm not sure how to take this one--it seems rather shocking to me that
the issue would even be raised by someone on a WWII conference.  Then
again, the older I get, the less I am surprised by anything.

Tim A. Scherrer
1LT, USAR
USTRANSCOM

PS--I'm trading my green suit for my grey one on Tuesday--I'll be back
where I normally am.  (Grey suit being my civilian, not my reenacting).

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Mar 1994 16:10:53 -0500
From:    David Rising <drising@IO.ORG>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Peenemunde, V2 etc

On Fri, 4 Mar 1994, Gudmundur Helgason wrote:

> Did any of the other "secret-weapons" exist or were under development?
> Like Death rays and stuff like that? Or was it just hype :) No chemical
> stuff?
>

One of the most "secret-weapons" which the Germans had just perfected by
the end of the war was the jet fighter (ME 262 if I remember correctly).
They were also working on the atomic bomb.
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Mar 1994 16:43:52 -0500
From:    Joshua Norton <NORTONJ@NORWICH.BITNET>
Subject: Re: "Nazi": Offensive Word????

Jonah, I'm not sure what you mean by "ashamed".  I agree that the whole world
not just Germany should be reminded of the atrocities committed by the Nazis.
Should I be ashamed that Americans held men as slaves or killed American
Indians?  I think not.  I'm appalled at these acts, but I didn't commit them.
Maybe someday Americans will figure that out and quit the racially biased
quota system which denies many Americans of their equal rights.  I'm with
Martin Luther King when he says that a man should not be judged by the color of
   his skin.  A man should also not be judged by his ancestry or at least this i
   s
how I feel.  Still we must remember
the wrongs of the past so that we will not repeat them.

JPN

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Mar 1994 23:49:59 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVS1.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: MEDIA: More Belgian WWII follow-ups...

Amnesty for those convicted for collaboration during the post-WWII
repression is a long-standing demand of the Flemish nationilists. Partly
because many people were convinced to choose the side of the Germans
because of their attempts to take advantage of the Belgian language
conflict; partly because it has been known that many trials were less than
correct. Revenge was then more important than justice. The Walloon parties
tend to reject this, and so of course do former members of resistance
groups and many who lost family in WWII.  Recently, the new king Albert II
asked for a 'reconciliation'. He did so in public, and that implies that
the government agreed with it.

A proposal of the Volksunie (People's union, the moderate Flemish
nationalist party) involves total amnesty for three groups: People who
were minors when they were convicted; nurses who worked for the German Red
Cross, and -- far more controversial -- people who fought with the Germans
on the Eastern front; 'against communism' of course. It also asks for
automatic rehabilitation, i.e. reinstatement of civil rights and full
pensions, of all convicted in these years, without the recignition of
guilt that normally has to precede a rehabilitation.

Some headlines were made too when minister of justice Melchior Wathelet
asked for the revision of the trial of Irma Laplasse, who was convicted to
death on 21 December 1944 and shot on 30 May 1945. She had been accused of
informing the Germans of the presence of resistance members in a local
school.

On 8 September 1945, the Germans had left the village of Oostduinkerke,
and retired to a reinforced position nearby. A 'Secret Army' group had
then attempted to take over the city, and had captured 23 Germans and a
number of collaborators, including Frederik Laplasse, son of Irma, who was
a member of a paramilitary organization cooperating with the Luftwaffe.
They were imprisoned in the local boy's school. At four o'clock, a German
column arrived at the school, and a gunfire began.  Resistance leader
Counye ran away 'in search of reinforcements', one was killed, six other
resistance members were shot on the spot on the orders of the German
commanding officer, Major Corneille. Canadian soldiers arrived and
liberated the village the same night.  That day, Irma Laplasse had met a
German soldier, Josef Beyer, who on the look-out in the dunes. He new her
well, because he was quartermaster and the farm of the Laplasses daily
supplied food the Germans. He asked what all the excitement was about and
was told that her son had been arrested.  The case was later investigated
by Counye (a postman, BTW), and he concluded that Irma Laplasse had
betrayed the resistance to the Germans.  This conclusion was accepted
without much further inquiry by the military examiner, Vossen.

It has now been revealed that the timing of the events, as stated by
Vossen, was incorrect; that Vossen nor Counye (despite the latters claim
to the contrary) did interrogate Corneille (Vossen calls him 'Von
Gruendell'), that an allied investigation into the acts of Corneille (who
shot himself later) was never submitted to the court; that Beyer did not
inform his commander about having met Laplasse (he had left his post to
talk to her); that the Germans had already observed the activity in the
village; that the arrival of the Germans at the school was probably a
coincidence, because they probably did not know that prisoners were held
there; and so on.

I do not know what the effects reopening of the case will be. Anyway, the
courts are years behind on their normal work.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Mar 1994 18:46:03 EST
From:    Ray Kale <Ray.Kale@LAMBADA.OIT.UNC.EDU>
Subject: Re: "Nazi": Offensive Word????

>
> Jonah, I'm not sure what you mean by "ashamed".  I agree that the whole world
> not just Germany should be reminded of the atrocities committed by the Nazis.
> Should I be ashamed that Americans held men as slaves or killed American
> Indians?  I think not.  I'm appalled at these acts, but I didn't com>    his
 skin.  A man should also not be judged by his ancestry or at least this i
>


Well put. I agree with your statesments.

Ray










   s
> how I feel.  Still we must remember
> the wrongs of the past so that we will not repeat them.
>
> JPN

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Mar 1994 19:50:18 EST
From:    BGF0000 <BGF0@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA>
Subject: Eisenhower & German POWs

Greetings:

I'm currently working on a research project that was inspired by James Bacque's
book "Other Losses".  Its basic premise is that Eisenhower "quietly engineered
the deaths of one million German prisoners", who were capture during the last
weeks of the war.  By changing the status of these prisoners from POW to DEF
(Disarmed Enemy Forces), Eisenhower was able to avoid living up to the
standards of the Geneva convention and to keep the International Red Cross
away from the camps where conditions were bad.

As far as I can find out, the debate is pretty much at a stalemate with each
side accepting that there was atrocious conditions in these camps (No
argument there), but because statistics and interview interpretation is
subjective each side is able to bolster their own view point.

The Pro-Bacque side argues that the Other Losses is a story of "premeditated
atrocity and on-going conspiracy to prevent word of it ever leaking out."
It argues that Eisenhower's intense hatred of the German people and
willingness to carry out the "denazification" of Germany (Morganthau plan) was
at the origin of the horrible conditions.

The other side, led by Steven Ambrose, levies a great defense.  First by
disputing the statistics provided by Bacque then providing a "more likely
origins" and motivations of the conditions.  For instance, Harry Hinsley
thought it was more likely that administrative incompetence and sheer size
of the problem, millions taken in matter of weeks, produced the horrible camp
conditions.  Their argument continues to down size the atrocity and focuses
on the circumstances that were beyond human control, as well as recognizing
the callousness of the American and French commands.  They not only point to
the food shortages in Europe, but they also to the Morganthau plan, saying
that those above Eisenhower forced him to be tough on the Germans.

I don't want to get into the argument of interpretation of specific facts.
That doesn't seem to lead anywhere.  For instance, Bacque points to a damaging
situation where a train load of food from the International Red Cross and
earmarked for German POWs was forced turned back and return to Geneva.  Ambrose
retorts that the Allied Governments decided that the food would be fed to
Displaced Persons.  Yet, Bacque could respond saying that the fact that the
food was used someplace else does not refute the premise that these soldiers
were denied food/aid from the Red Cross.  As you can see we can continue the
circle.

What I would like hear:
1. Some opinions about the book and the debate.
2. The possible influence of the Morganthau Plan on the POW/DEF status.
3. The Soviet involvement in setting up the Morganthau Plan through.
   Morganthau's Assistant Secretary Harry Dexter White.
4. The issue of generalized responsibility vs. individual responsibility.
5. Location and conditions of British Camps.
6. The reasoning why German POWs were held for so long.
7. Why did American publishers resist publishing the book in the United States.
8. How extensive was the food shortages.

I look forward to hearing the debate.

Curt A. Klun
McGill University Undergraduate
BGF0@MusicB.McGill.Ca
(Make sure the 0 in BGF0 is a zero and not the letter "O")

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Mar 1994 18:56:36 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Eisenhower & German POWs

Personally, I _don't_ look forward to the debate.

george bauer

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Mar 1994 21:01:38 -0500
From:    Bob Smart <bsmart@SMART.COM>
Subject: Re: TAC: Convoys vs. U-Boats

> John Horner <HORNERJA%SDELVB@SNYBUFVA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU> writes:
>
> This makes sense in terms of escaping detection, but I am still thinking
> back to earlier posts on the subject. It was said that captains didn't want
> to join convoys because they didn't want to take orders.  Given that they
> were used to giving orders and not taking them, I can understand this.
>
> But I *must* be missing something, because no one has said anything about
> the biggest obvious advantage of convoys - if your ship gets hit you have
> a chance at getting picked up.  If you are on your own in the North Atlantic
> and your ship goes down, your done.  With other ships around it would seem
> that you at least have a chance to get picked up by an escort or something.
>
> Lets see now, with a convoy you have an escort or three, you have someone
> to fish you out if you get sunk, and your chance of getting spotted in the
> first place is not much greater than if you were alone.  On the flip side,
> if you are on your own you have a slightly smaller chance of getting spotted,
> you die if you sink, and you don't have to take orders.  Wow what a choice.
>
> Is my argument flawed?  It would seem to me that a convoy would be the
> way to go.

There was a disadvantage to convoys. Convoys getting to port are like christmas
eve at the mall. Too many ships not enough offloading ( and onloading space)
This meant a serious loss of effiency at a time when shipping was in short
supply. And remember the merchant ships were operated as a business. Idle ships
means no revenue. Ship owners hated having a ship sit, fully loaded and manned
in a harbor waiting for a convoy to form.

Just another thing to consider,

Bob Smart (bsmart@smart.com)
>
>
> Jeff Dingbaum
> dingbaum@hep.net

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Mar 1994 21:59:59 -0500
From:    Joseph Wolm <JW2827@ACSPR1.ACS.BROCKPORT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Civil Air Patrol

Hello there,
thank you for sumerizing the history of the CAP in a better way than
I could have.
sincerly,
Joseph M. E. Wolm

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Mar 1994 23:06:34 EST
From:    Chuck Weckesser <71233.677@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: Franco's Spain & The Axis Powers

I am told that Hitler and Franco met but once when the former attempted to
induce the latter into joining the war on the side of the Axis. As I recall,
Hitler, for the *FIRST* time, was outfoxed and failed to "mesmerozie" Franco
with his verbal prowess. In fact, I think Hitler said he'd rather have a
"dentist pull some teeth" than meet with Franco again.

And that was the last of Germany's attempt to lure Franco into the coalition. I
wonder how the whole scheme of things would have changed had Franco cast his lot
in with his fellow facists.

On the same note, was Dr. Salazar in power in Portugal during the war. I can't
seem to recall. If not, who was, and what were diplomatic relations between
Lisbon and Berlin like?

Regards,

CJW

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Mar 1994 20:35:55 -0600
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: B-26s

In message <01H9NS4WBCJEDZ6MQA@VX.CIS.UMN.EDU> World War II Discussion List
writes:
> Thanks Robert, I'll take 2 B-26s please.  Will you accept my Visa? :->

Gee... I dunno if my credit card verifier can take 7 digits before the
decimal point.  I'd be happy to try... :-)


--
Robert J. Granvin                                             rjg@stat.umn.edu
University of Minnesota, School of Statistics
         "I'm my father?  I'm my mother?  I'm chipped beef on toast?"

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Mar 1994 22:01:29 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: Gen:  PC on my PC

>
> Political Correctness on my Personal Computer.
>
> If the Nazi offends Germans, then what is our option?  Germans with
> Fascist leanings?  Middle European Hitlerites? Fascist sympathetic
> Teutons?

It seems a bit well, odd to me.

Of course I recall a German in FidoNet (INTERUSER or ASIAN_LINK) who decided
he'd show what a clever chap he was by trying to "Vietnam" the Americans in
the group to death.

Imagine his surprise when I made sure to refer to Auschwitz in every post to
him.  I was of course being "unfair", and wasn't that all a LONG time ago, and
wasn't he FAR too young to be responsible?

He wasn't too interested in hearing that I as too young to have masterminded
the U.S. intervention in S.E. Asia, nor even to have fought in it.  He damned
me for a horrid, "unfair", American, then as I believe the Brit.s say,
"scoffed it", never to be heard from again.... :)

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 5 Mar 1994 to 6 Mar 1994
***********************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 6 Mar 1994 to 7 Mar 1994
To: Recipients of WWII-L digests <WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Status: O

There are 53 messages totalling 2242 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Gen. Steiner: Defence of Berlin (2)
  2. TAC: Italian AT units (2)
  3. Eisenhower & German POWs (3)
  4. Gen:  PC on my PC (5)
  5. To Terry Moore about Peenemunde (2)
  6. Polesti raids misinformation (3)
  7. INF: El Alamein strengths (4)
  8. Son of PC on my PC (3)
  9. ADMIN: Intro to WWII-L
 10. Vietnam = Auschwitz ?  Hardly!
 11. <No subject given>
 12. QUEST: Americans in concentration camps?
 13. Vietnam = Auschwitz ? Hardly!
 14. Richest oil family
 15. INF: Vietnam Forums
 16. Bombing of Dresden /v1, v2 (4)
 17. WEAP: Peenemunde, V2 etc (6)
 18. Gen: Let's Drop PC and Get to WWII History
 19. "60 Minutes": Russian Hitler (Read!)
 20. AMERICAN concentration camps?  Wrong!!
 21. INF: Vietnam forums ELSEWHERE (2)
 22. Welcome, Dmitri!!
 23. AMERICAN concentration camps? Wrong!!
 24. "60 Minutes": Russian Hitler (R
 25. The 106th, the Ardennes, and a friend of von
 26. Rohm shot
 27. NOST Extant Rubble
 28. Eisenhower and German POWs

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 11:43:41 +0000
From:    WH GREENSLADE <W.H.Greenslade@BRADFORD.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Gen. Steiner: Defence of Berlin

A book that will shed laght onto this subject is called Wenck's 12th Army
unfornatly it is in German I have a copy and if anyone has any questions
I'd be happy to answer them. Alsothe book covers the so called disordered
mass of men.

W.GREENSLADE

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 12:25:14 +0000
From:    WH GREENSLADE <W.H.Greenslade@BRADFORD.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: TAC: Italian AT units

 What is your source?

W.GREENSLADE

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 06:52:24 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Eisenhower & German POWs

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> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@UBVM) by

Hello, Curt!

You ask many very interesting questions and I would like to respond.
Please permit me to respond to you tomorrow.

Terry
----------------------------------------------------------------------


> Greetings:
>
> I'm currently working on a research project that was inspired by James Bacque's
> book "Other Losses".  Its basic premise is that Eisenhower "quietly engineered
> the deaths of one million German prisoners", who were capture during the last
> weeks of the war.  By changing the status of these prisoners from POW to DEF
> (Disarmed Enemy Forces), Eisenhower was able to avoid living up to the
> standards of the Geneva convention and to keep the International Red Cross
> away from the camps where conditions were bad.
>
> As far as I can find out, the debate is pretty much at a stalemate with each
> side accepting that there was atrocious conditions in these camps (No
> argument there), but because statistics and interview interpretation is
> subjective each side is able to bolster their own view point.
>
> The Pro-Bacque side argues that the Other Losses is a story of "premeditated
> atrocity and on-going conspiracy to prevent word of it ever leaking out."
> It argues that Eisenhower's intense hatred of the German people and
> willingness to carry out the "denazification" of Germany (Morganthau plan) was
> at the origin of the horrible conditions.
>
> The other side, led by Steven Ambrose, levies a great defense.  First by
> disputing the statistics provided by Bacque then providing a "more likely
> origins" and motivations of the conditions.  For instance, Harry Hinsley
> thought it was more likely that administrative incompetence and sheer size
> of the problem, millions taken in matter of weeks, produced the horrible camp
> conditions.  Their argument continues to down size the atrocity and focuses
> on the circumstances that were beyond human control, as well as recognizing
> the callousness of the American and French commands.  They not only point to
> the food shortages in Europe, but they also to the Morganthau plan, saying
> that those above Eisenhower forced him to be tough on the Germans.
>
> I don't want to get into the argument of interpretation of specific facts.
> That doesn't seem to lead anywhere.  For instance, Bacque points to a damaging
> situation where a train load of food from the International Red Cross and
> earmarked for German POWs was forced turned back and return to Geneva.  Ambrose
> retorts that the Allied Governments decided that the food would be fed to
> Displaced Persons.  Yet, Bacque could respond saying that the fact that the
> food was used someplace else does not refute the premise that these soldiers
> were denied food/aid from the Red Cross.  As you can see we can continue the
> circle.
>
> What I would like hear:
> 1. Some opinions about the book and the debate.
> 2. The possible influence of the Morganthau Plan on the POW/DEF status.
> 3. The Soviet involvement in setting up the Morganthau Plan through.
>    Morganthau's Assistant Secretary Harry Dexter White.
> 4. The issue of generalized responsibility vs. individual responsibility.
> 5. Location and conditions of British Camps.
> 6. The reasoning why German POWs were held for so long.
> 7. Why did American publishers resist publishing the book in the United States.
> 8. How extensive was the food shortages.
>
> I look forward to hearing the debate.
>
> Curt A. Klun
> McGill University Undergraduate
> BGF0@MusicB.McGill.Ca
> (Make sure the 0 in BGF0 is a zero and not the letter "O")
>

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 07:05:50 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gen:  PC on my PC

> Received: from MAILQUEUE by PCAD (Mercury 1.11); Sun, 6 Mar 94 22:57:46 GMT-6
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Hello, Christopher and others!

I would like to add my two cents'worth to this. I do not like the
word "Nazi" any more than some. I have always preferred the term
"German" in all circumstances. I find the word "Nazi" inflammatory
and I think it creates barriers to viewing the war in an objective
light, which, after all, is what this list is attempting to do.

Thanks.

Terry
---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Political Correctness on my Personal Computer.
> >
> > If the Nazi offends Germans, then what is our option?  Germans with
> > Fascist leanings?  Middle European Hitlerites? Fascist sympathetic
> > Teutons?
>
> It seems a bit well, odd to me.
>
> Of course I recall a German in FidoNet (INTERUSER or ASIAN_LINK) who decided
> he'd show what a clever chap he was by trying to "Vietnam" the Americans in
> the group to death.
>
> Imagine his surprise when I made sure to refer to Auschwitz in every post to
> him.  I was of course being "unfair", and wasn't that all a LONG time ago, and
> wasn't he FAR too young to be responsible?
>
> He wasn't too interested in hearing that I as too young to have masterminded
> the U.S. intervention in S.E. Asia, nor even to have fought in it.  He damned
> me for a horrid, "unfair", American, then as I believe the Brit.s say,
> "scoffed it", never to be heard from again.... :)
>

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 07:32:15 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: To Terry Moore about Peenemunde

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>     Sat, 5 Mar 94 12:15:25 GMT-6
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>    with BSMTP id 7257; Sat, 05 Mar 94 13:11:31 EST
> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@UBVM) by



Hello, Gudmundur!

Glad you wrote me again. I think I will post a few things to you on
the list first. Those who would like additional info can contact me
in either format they desire. If the individual(s) do not want to
read it, then it can easily be deleted. There may be others who would
like to have access to the info or parts thereof to which I have
access.

What I will post is a partial listing at this time. I will try to
send all of it to you today.

Here goes.

 Experimental Fighters

 Blohm and Voss  Bv 155
                 Bv 237

 Focke-Wulf     Fw 159
                Fw 187 (Falke)
                Fw 283
                Volksjaeger
                Fw-VII

Heinkel         He 100
                He 112
                He 162 Salamander
                He 280

Horten          Ho 9 (Ho 229)
                Ho 13B Rochen

Messerschmitt   Me 263
                Me 309
                Me 328
                Me 329
                Me 109Z and Me 609

               Experimental Bombers

Arado   Ar 340

Blohm and Voss Bv 250

Focke-Wulf Fw 191
           Ta 400
           He 119
           He 274

Henschel   Hs 132

Junkers    Ju 287
           Ju 288
           Ju 488
           Me 264

Horten     Ho 18
           Mistel
           He 116 and He118
           Do 19 and Ju 89

           Missles

FZG 76 (Fieseler Fi l03)
A-4 (V-2)
Wasserfall C-2/E2

Henschel  Hs 117 Schmetterling
          Hs 293

Bachem    Ba 349 Natter (Viper)

              Other Missles

The missles designed or developed at Peenemuende were from A-1 to A-
12. In 1943, there were over 48 kinds of experimental anti-aircraft
missles in Germany. The German High Command planned to readjust them
into 12 kinds for mass production but there was not enough time to
bring them into mass production.

In any case, the Germans designed and test-manufactured a rich
assortment of missles quite original and epochal in ideas and
structure. Most of the missles now in service or in the final phase
of development are said to be originated in these German missles.

To mention a few, there were the A-9/A-10, the progenitor of the
ICBM; underwater A-11/12 missles; solid propellant rocket-powered
long range SSM, the Rheinbote; various kinds of SAM such as the
Rheintochter with solid rocket motor; the Hs 293 guided bomb; the Hs
294 AUM, etc.

I will stop here for the time being. If you want details of anything
mentioned here, send me the alpha-numeric designation, and I will
produce the info that I have. This goes for anyone else interested in
this aspect of German aviation development. All that I will post will
ultimately lead to a complete listing of everything the Germans had
at the time or were planning to develope had they had the time.
Please advise.

Thanks

Terry


Regarding my posts and why they may be different, I really don't
know. I have been having problems here, and I think that if I excise
a substantial part of the heading, my posts will make it to the
entire list, rather than be untransmittable. So far it seems to be
working.

Terry

---------------------------------------------------------------------

>         Hey Terry Moore
>
> Thanks for your great offer, I would be interested in almost anything
> that you can get me, Peenemunde or not :) I have horrible times getting
> any library info here and I only have money to get a dozen or so U-boat
> books a year :) Peenemunde is a special interest to me for the V-2 and
> the Laffenwertz(?) project. Can you send me both your e-mail address and
> a list (if possible) of what you have? I would be most grateful to say
> the least.
>
> PS: How come do your posts look different than the others? Are you
> e-mails re-routed to the list or something?
>
> PS II: I also saw you offering something about Balck, my favorite
> Wehrmacht officer, Could you also send me list of info in him/his
> commands etc.?
>
> I think that this would be best continued off the list as I dont think
> most members care for this info :)
>
>
> Thanks again.
>
>
> Gudmundur J. Helgason
>
> E-mail:    gummihe@ismennt.is
>

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 08:47:16 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Polesti raids misinformation

Prof. Moore says,...

>    Ploesti was bombed a total of 44 times during the course of the
>war. There was even one raid of P-38's loaded down with bombs that
>was sent to attack the refineries there. It had long been a juicy and
>tempting target to American planners. The problem was always
>distance and the fact that it was so heavily defended for obvious
>reasons.
>
>   The big raid on Ploesti in 1942, I think, in which we lost so many
>B-24's were part of the IXth Air Force operating out of North Africa.
>There were 5 combat cameramen that made the raid and only one
>survived, and the only footage you will ever see of that raid, and I
>think this cameraman shot a total of 526 feet of film during the
>course of that raid, was all shot by this man. His name was Jerry
>Joswick who wrote a fascinating book on this topic.

And as I recall from my readings many years ago now, they switched to low
level bombings, on the order of 200 feet. This was so they could avoid as
much flak and be as inconspicuous as possible. I believe their accuracy
increased as well. -Al

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Wild, LAN Mgr.  Father of 1.5             Voice:          (401) 792-2611
ACC - Lippitt - URI  American Legion Post 102. FAX:            (401) 792-5479
Kingston, RI  02881                            Bitnet:           AWild@URIACC
                                               Internet: AWild@URIACC.URI.EDU

Murphy's Uncertainty Principle:    You can know something has gone wrong only
                                    when you make an odd number of mistakes.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 14:12:10 GMT
From:    Stephen Baldwin <smb@NETMGRS.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: INF: El Alamein strengths

>       Steve,
>
>       I think your data is pretty accurate but you have to remember the VAST
>       disparity in combat effectiveness between the German and Italian units.
>
>       Of the Axis strengths, probably 50% or less of those numbers are German
>       soldiers and German tanks.  The Italian soldiers' fighting ability often
>       was a liability to the Afrika Korps, with the exception of the Folgore
>       parachute units and perhaps a few of the units in the Ariete tank division.
>
>       It is a well known fact the Italian M-13/40 and M-15/42 tanks were not as good
>       as the German Panzer IIIh/j models or the Panzer IVf/g models.
>
>       Bear
>
>       Barrett F. Lowe               RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
>       MAJ, IN
>       Dept of Physics, West Point  (e-mail:  hb9388%usma6@trotter.usma.edu)
Good morning Major Lowe!
Sorry I've been a bit late in replying re Ardennes/Monty et al.
I have been swamped by my "normal" job and have not been able to
respond...I am down but not out, however!

Having read a bit more on the net about fighting strengths,
(105,000 axis v 195,000 allied), it would appear that out of the
105,000 axis, 55,000 were German and 50,000 were Italian (or maybe
the numbers are reversed...I'll doublecheck). Anyway, from
what others have written, the Italians cannot be so lightly dismissed.
Sure a fair number were poor, but there were several units that knew
how to fight. Rommel had constructed defenses between 5km and 8km deep
and the defence was well planned. Some writers have commented on the
similarity between this and the Western Front 1915-18; others have
drawn comparisions between El Alamein and Kursk where the Russians
built similar, although I would expect much greater defenses compared with
El Alamein. The Germans failed at Kursk but the Allies triumphed
at El Alamein due to superior quantities of armour. As the allies found
out in the west, 1944-45, carefully positioned defenses (as per the
Siegfried Line) could seriously hamper attackers, whilst not being
manned by tremendously able fighters. (I have read that some of these
defences were manned by the german equivalent of the British Home Guard
due to manpower shortage?)

 Emmanuel Gustin pooh-poohed the excuse that the
weather hampered Monty's "mopping up" after "Supercharge". Whilst
fatigue / confusion also played a large part in the failure to
inflict a heavier defeat on the axis, the fact remains that the
weather did play a part and does/did hamper mobility. I'm sure he
would not dismiss the weather in such light terms when discussing
the German advance into the Soviet Union?

more later, in the meantime back to work :-(

steve baldwin
smb@netmgrs.co.uk

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 09:21:51 -0500
From:    Joe Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: TAC: Italian AT units

Command Magazine excerpted parts of a forthcoming book, entitled,
"The African Campaign", by Alessandro Massignani and Jack Greene,
which will be published by Combined Books.
--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
A Sherman can give you a very nice edge.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 09:21:08 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gen:  PC on my PC

> Hello, Christopher and others!
>
> I would like to add my two cents'worth to this. I do not like the
> word "Nazi" any more than some. I have always preferred the term
> "German" in all circumstances. I find the word "Nazi" inflammatory
> and I think it creates barriers to viewing the war in an objective
> light, which, after all, is what this list is attempting to do.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Terry
>
> Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
> P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
> fax 806-371-5370
>
Terry, my position if just the opposite, I don't lump all Germans in with
the Nazi's, any more than I lump all Russians in with the Communist, or
all Vietnamese in with the Viet Cong.

In each case we have a political system that has gained dominance and is
doing things that both internal and external observes may find reprehensible.
I'm currently working on a review of H. Zeigler's "Nazi Germany's New
Aristocracy" which tracks the demographics of the "average" SS-Fuehrer. I
have to determine where they came from and what motivated them to become
part of the "Order of the Death's Head". The statistics show that they had
much the same background as the "average" officer that graduated from West
Point (I'll get to Sandhurst later this year), so what makes an "average"
citizen into Amon Hoeth or Omar Bradley? No other time before or since has
produced another Hoeth in a Germany which wasn't ruled by a totalitarian state.

Now if we follow the careers of the SS-Fuehrers into a bifurcated Germany
and see how the two states employed the "rehabilitated" officers (or didn't
do so) we might find a clue as to what would make *anyone* into a Hoeth.

This is still in the early stages of work, so I can't give all the information
in nice, neat, tables, but when we see how people react under either a
totalitarian or liberal system of government it's clear to me which one I'd
rather live under.

To (finally) come to my point, I think that any system (government, religion,
whatever) that thinks it's "totally" right relieves its members of the need
to make moral and ethical evaluations of their conduct. This leads to the
sort of android we find in Amon Hoeth, or the guards along the Iron Curtain
(or atleast their commanders who issued the "shoot to kill" orders).

Babble mode off.

Larry J

JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 09:24:14 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <kc5318@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Eisenhower & German POWs

Curt,
     I know of no "respectable historians" who give the book much credance. And
until mass graves turn up with the massacred POWs, I doubt if anyone will.

                                             LTC Con Crane
                                             USMA

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 08:12:00 LCL
From:    SCHERRER TIM A <SCHERRET.TRANSCOM@TRANSCOM.SAFB.AF.MIL>
Subject: Son of PC on my PC

I have always tried to be sensitive about using the word Nazi.  I am the
guy who several times a year puts on his feldgrau uniform and tries to
relive the Wehrmacht.  I think there is a big difference between those
just serving their country, and those promoting the fascist regime.  At
the time, the lines were probably VERY blurred, for promoting the fascist
regime was propagandized  as serving Germany.

My drawing line is if it was done on both sides then it doesn't seem to
me to be "political" in nature, and doesn't qualify for the word Nazi.
One can argue about the U.S. Japanese concentration camps, but there is a
big difference between what the U.S. did, which was confinement, and the
Germans did, which was extermination.  The Waffen SS is really touch and
go when trying to decide what to call them.

  For the most part, I don;t consider the field formation to really
qualify, although they held those beliefs.  It is what people did that in
my determination, not what they believed.  What they did is what will be
remembered.  Their thoughts and beliefs at the time were important, but
they've evolved over time.  Their actions  make their legacy.

The Nazi's called themselves Nazi's, who are we to second guess them.


Tim A. Scherrer
1LT, USAR
USTRANSCOM

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 6 Mar 1994 16:37:47 -0600
From:    Tony Schuler <SCHULERE@UWSTOUT.EDU>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: Intro to WWII-L

confirm wwii-l

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 10:06:37 -0600
From:    mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: Vietnam = Auschwitz ?  Hardly!

Christopher,

     You might have pointed out to your friend that we
went into Indochina to try to prevent the genocide which
did indeed occur after we deserted the Indochinese -- for
"humanitarian/antiwar" reasons!

     Well-intentioned as they were, the anti-Vietnam activists
facilitated a worse holocaust than they ended.  What moral and
legal responsibility/guilt they have  has yet to be decided.

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 17:31:08 GMT
From:    Dmitri Brasoun <brasun@MFMJESSY.UNIV-MRS.FR>
Subject: <No subject given>

Hello everybody!
I subscibed only today and found the interesting discussion
here.
        I write from France, but really I am Russian and only
work here.
        Firstly, about word "Nazi". In russian literature, TV
and so on usually one says "German Nazi". I see nothing wrong
in this termin because now we have a lot of fascicts in Russia
and we call them "Russian Nazi". What is wrong here? Moreover,
these persons are proud to be "Nazi" (not speaking that Hitler
is one of the main heros in these circle).
        So, Nazi is very general ideology. By this reason the
official Russian propaganda always (early and now) divided the
"Germans" and "Nazi" saying "German Nazi".
        But I have to note that old generation (common people,
who participated in Great Patriotic War-russian name of WWII)
considers that it was war with namely with Germans (not Nazi).
My grandfather told me that before the WWII they beleived that
Nazi is one thing and the suppressed German people is absolutely
other thing (according the official propaganda). It was real shock
for him when after the war onset it had turned out that all (all!!!) Germans are fascists! Where were suppressed German work-people?-
he acked himself. During the first months of war (I mean after
22 of June) people in Soviet Union waited the revolt in Germany
to support "the first state of workers and peasants"(Now it seems
- the naive people!). But at that time Russians acked themself
every day - "may be it will happen tomorrow?"
        So, my grandfather (and I agree with him) was sure that
the turning-point in Russian company happened when people
understood: it was not war between Communists and Nuzi, but
between Russians and Germans. It's very strong opinion of old
generation.
        As for fascism (it's more distributed term in Russia)
itself, now I understand very well the situation in Germany in
20s-30s, because history is repeating, but now in Russia. And
the most terrible things here - it's impossible to do something
to keep country. Believe me - it's impossible.

Best regards,
                                        Dmitry Bratsoun.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 11:31:11 -0500
From:    "Sidney W. Kitchel" <kitchel@OCTOPUS.DPSI.COM>
Subject: Re: QUEST: Americans in concentration camps?

rod holmes writes:
|->
|-> Howdy All,
|->
|-> Hope this doesn't explode. I was wodering if any citizens of the United
|-> States of American were sent to any of the concentration camps?

        Yes, quite a few Nisei (Japanes born in America)! They were
American citizens and sent to U.S. concentration camps. An illegal and
shameful chapter in U.S. history.
                                                        --Sid


--
Sidney W. Kitchel           kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 11:18:05 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: Son of PC on my PC

> My drawing line is if it was done on both sides then it doesn't seem to
> me to be "political" in nature, and doesn't qualify for the word Nazi.
> One can argue about the U.S. Japanese concentration camps, but there is a
> big difference between what the U.S. did, which was confinement, and the
> Germans did, which was extermination.  The Waffen SS is really touch and
> go when trying to decide what to call them.

The Japanese internment was wrong by any standard, especially considering the
depths we sank to to do it.  On the other hand, of course we didn't slaughter
them.  Still, it's a national disgrace.

As for the Waffen SS, I've read a number of books on the subject, and they seem
to have been thoroughly schizophrenic in their conduct.  At one instant, they'd
treat British prisoners with honor, the next they'd murder French African
colonial troops who fought fiercely, then murder British or American POWS.  It
appeared to rest entirely upon the shoulders who happened to be in charge at
any given place at any given time.

Try Sydnor or Hoehne for specific examples.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 11:20:49 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: Gen:  PC on my PC

>
> > Received: from MAILQUEUE by PCAD (Mercury 1.11); Sun, 6 Mar 94 22:57:46 GMT-6
> > Return-path: <@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU:owner-wwii-l@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
> > Received: from UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu by PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU (Mercury 1.11);
> >     Sun, 6 Mar 94 22:57:37 GMT-6
> > Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU by UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2)
> >    with BSMTP id 2278; Sun, 06 Mar 94 23:53:56 EST
> > Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@UBVM) by
>
> Hello, Christopher and others!
>
> I would like to add my two cents'worth to this. I do not like the
> word "Nazi" any more than some. I have always preferred the term
> "German" in all circumstances. I find the word "Nazi" inflammatory
> and I think it creates barriers to viewing the war in an objective
> light, which, after all, is what this list is attempting to do.

When speaking tactically, I usually say "German", unless the SS is involved,
then it's CERTAINLY "NAZI" (or SS), since if the SS weren't nazis, then the
NKVD weren't communists!

At the national level, it's hardly rational to say anything BUT nazi.  It's
not like the Social Democrats were conducting the war.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 11:56:06 -0500
From:    Steven VEST <vest@ALPHA.ACAST.NOVA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Vietnam = Auschwitz ? Hardly!

Lou:

    This is inflammitory, simplistic and (most importantly) off topic.
Please don't get some sort of Vietnam flame fest going here.  I'm getting
too much peripherial stuff on this list anyway.  Why not send these kind
of comments direct e-mail?

Best,

   Steven

==========================vest@alpha.acast.nova.ed===========================
= Steven Vest: Head, Off Campus Lib. Services: Nova University, Ft. Ldl, FL =
="You know that these are not the best of times.                           =
=                But they're the only times I've ever known."    Billy Joel=
================No statements made here reflect Nova University==============

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 11:59:38 -0500
From:    "Sidney W. Kitchel" <kitchel@OCTOPUS.DPSI.COM>
Subject: Richest oil family

Jesse Carnes writes:
"Again, his family was the richest oil family in the US at c.1942 and I need
to check which are the three largest oil co.'s in Oklahoma today, let's say,
and see if his family still retains ownership and then take it from
there."

        As an Oklahoman you have attracted my curiosity. One would
assume that the richest oil bunch in Oklahoma ca. 1942 would be the
brothers Phillips of Phillips Petroleum fame. But there were other
possibilities. J. Paul Getty spent WWII in Tulsa managing Spartan
Aircraft. The Marlins and Skelly's also lived in Oklahoma. However,
one would imagine that the richest oil family then was still the
Rockefellers.
        The largest oil firms in Oklahoma ca. 1942 were probably
Phillips Petroleum, Cosden Mid-continent (which became DX then Sunray
DX, and eventually merged with Sunoco), Sinclair, and Warren
Petroleum. At some point, Kerr-McGee was formed but Kerr and McGee
were probably separate in 1940s.
        Currently, the largest ones are probably: Phillips, Cities
Service (Citgo), and Kerr-McGee.

        I'd look in the _Tulsa World_, _Tulsa Tribune_, and the _Daily
Oklahoman_. The large B-24 raid on Ploesti was on Aug. 1, 1943.

                                                        --Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel           kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 12:30:30 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: INF: Vietnam Forums

For those who wish to discuss the Vietnam war, may I suggest VWAR-L or
SIXTIES-L from the same listserv that brings you WWII-L.

The Vietnam war is germane to this group only as far as it can be related to
WWII.

Larry J

JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 12:58:55 EST
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Bombing of Dresden /v1, v2

On Fri, 4 Mar 1994 14:17:26 +0100 Emmanuel Gustin said:
>No, they were far to inaccurate to be aimed at something as small as an
>airfield.  Most were fired at cities, and they often missed. London was
>hit by 2419 V-1s out of about 8000 fired at the city. Antwerp was hit by
>2448, but I don't know how many were fired this way...

Anyone know offhand the CEP for a V2?  5 miles?  10?  Pretty bad, in any
case.  It's interesting to me that the V2 bombardment came much closer to
cracking civilian morale than the Blitz did, even though the actual effect
was much less.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 13:01:53 EST
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Peenemunde, V2 etc

On Fri, 4 Mar 1994 20:57:08 GMT Gudmundur Helgason said:
>Did any of the other "secret-weapons" exist or were under development?
>Like Death rays and stuff like that? Or was it just hype :) No chemical
>stuff?

I've actually seen a photograph of a secret weapon consisting of a giant
speaker/sound system that literally blasted attacking soldiers to bits.
It got a few tests on the eastern front, but the Germans never deployed it
because, well, it was several stories high & took several days to erect
before an attack.  Not a very feasible weapon, but it did apparently take
out nearly a company at a blast in its tests.

ken koester
maint2@ers.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 12:55:58 -0500
From:    Stan Koper <skoper@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Gen: Let's Drop PC and Get to WWII History

I hate to add to this discussion.  Although it may be useful to
some, I find it distracting.  If you are referring to the
Wahnnsee (sp?) Conference, or Einsatzgruppen, then I think it
would be appropriate to use the term "Nazi".  I would be less
sure when discussing construction of the Siegfried Line by the
Todt Organization, or regarding radar development, Wehrmacht
strategy, etc.  It should be clear (most of the time) from
context when it is appropriate and when not.  The late German
actor Gert Frobe was a member of the Nazi party.  He was a Nazi.
I don't know that actor Curt Jurgens was, nor were such
Germans as Willi Brandt or (someone will correct me if I'm
wrong), Adolph Galland.

Accuracy is relevant, PC is not.

Stan Koper
skoper@netcom.com
plus  a change, plus c'est la m me chose
     This message brought to you by uqwk and Yarn 0.58

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 11:00:39 EST
From:    Chuck Weckesser <71233.677@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: "60 Minutes": Russian Hitler (Read!)

Larry, this may seem a bit off topic, but I believe this post to be relevant to
your list. Last night, "60 Minutes" did a profile on, and darn it, I can't spell
his name, Vladimir Zhusskowski who absolutely sent *CHILLS UP MY SPINE* with his
plans for Mother Russia in two years hence when he becomes President of Russia.
Notice that I said "when" and not "if."

You heard it here first! This message is archived, than God. I believe that this
man will indeed become the next President of Russia and that he will crush
democracy there. Catherine the Great once commented that Russians "genuinely
appreciate the lash, as they will never understand any other way". I think she
may have been right.

I further predict that he will take back the Baltic States (except possibly
Latvia). I further predict that he shall protect the Bosnian Serbs and permit
the wholesale slaughter of innocent Muslims.

Was it not Santanaya (sp?) who said that those who forget the lessons of history
are doomed to repeat them? Remember, what Hitler did was *NOT* some big
surprise. He was extremely candid *UP FRONT* re: his intentions should he ever
come to power.

I believe that he has the support of the demoralized Russian Army and secret
police. I believe that NOW is the time for any Jew living in Russia to take his
advice (and he said this last night on 60 minutes) and move to Israel. Nothing
but pogroms await them in two years hence. Another Kristallnacht. But worse.
Pogroms have always been a part of Russian heritage.

If I am not mistaken, America has an Executive Order in effect (with good
reason) which states that the CIA or any other organ of the American government
shall not murder a Head of State (ala Salvador Allende).

Thus, the time to act is NOW, while he lacks any title.

People once thought Nassar (in particular, UK PM Eden) was another Hitler.
Nassar was nothing compared with this man. He will do *exactly* as he said he
would, secret weapons and all. Japan shall never receive the Kuril Islands and
in fact, should start building their defenses today.

Hitler came from the gutters of Europe. The industrialists, such as the Krupp
family, all thought that they could "control" Hitler, as did von Papen in
convincing the "old man" (Hindenburg) to appoint Hitler Chancellor and himself
Vice-Chancellor.

With the help of the second largest party (the Catholic Center Party), the
Enabling Act, which in theory was "temporary," was passed. Hitler was the
undisputed master of Germany following the death of Hindenburg who narrowly
defeated Hitler for President to begin with (e.g. Yeltsin narrowly defeated this
nut case).

After more than 600 years of Hohenzollern rule, the German people had a truly
Democratic nation for a bit more than 12 years. I believe the same fate awaits
Russia.

We must act NOW. Can we afford a return to a new Cold War? Just as the Germans
foolishly gave Lenin safe passage through Germany to help their war effort in
order that Lenin might ferment Revolution in Petrograd they opened a Pandora's
Box that they paid for in spades a generation later.

Let's not make the same mistake. It is against the law, as it should be, to kill
a head of state. Currently, like Hitler, he is a street-brawling, xenophobic
drug addict (well, to be accurate, Hitler was not a drug addict until 1943 -
good old Dr. Morell) whose star is on the rise.

We send a cleaner in now or never. We should all be grateful that the UN,
*finally*, has become the powerful entity that FDR had hoped for with the
collapse of the bipolar status-quo. We cannot allow the UN to become another
League of Nations. And I predict that the UN will become totally preoccupied
with this self-annoited savior of Mother Russia if he becomes the next
President. As everyone probably knows, Yeltsin has said he will not run again.

I don't know about the rest of you, but this man has me scared ****. I believe
he will do <EVERY> act he has uttered. There will be no Politburo or Central
Committee to act as a check and balance. Like Hitler, this man is a nihilist. He
will roll the dice no matter what the stakes. And the "stakes" could be the
safety of our great Republic.

May God have mercy on all of us if he becomes "Vladimir the Terrible" as I
forsee.

The man has already said he will murder 500,000 Estonians under the aegis of
"protecting" the Russian minority. Does that ring any bells folks?

CJW

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 12:22:10 -0600
From:    mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: AMERICAN concentration camps?  Wrong!!

Is this Sid Kolko on our net?

While a literal definition of "concentration camp" denotes
  a concentrating-point/detention-camp, which the detention camps
  for Japanese-Americans certainly were, the overall connotation
  is now EXTERMINATION CAMPS -- which ours obviously were not.

Let's maintain some vestige of intellectual integrity in this
  discussion, shall we?

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 12:27:19 -0600
From:    mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: Re: INF: Vietnam forums ELSEWHERE

OK, Larry, I'll terminate (my half of) the Vietnam=Auschwitz?!
  thread.

However, the experience of myself and others has been that
  objective moderation/discussion has not been characteristic
  of VWAR-L.

I had heard that another, more academic, Vietnam discussion
  group was going to be started up.  Will it be via UBVM?

Lou

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 12:31:35 -0600
From:    mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: Welcome, Dmitri!!

Wow!  A real, live Russian, folks!

Thank you for your "pulse of the people" observations on
  the Great Patriotic War generation in Russia, Dmitri.

We look forward to your active participation.  Any new
  books and historical interpretations in Russia are of great
  interest to us.

YYYPPPPPAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  nO6EDA!!!!!!!!!!!!!  :-)

Lou Coatney, Western Illinois University, Macomb, Illinois

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 13:46:11 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: INF: Vietnam forums ELSEWHERE

>
> OK, Larry, I'll terminate (my half of) the Vietnam=Auschwitz?!
>   thread.

  Thank you.

> However, the experience of myself and others has been that
>   objective moderation/discussion has not been characteristic
>   of VWAR-L.

  Different listowners have different styles of "tending" a list. The content
of VWAR-L can be inflamatory, but not nearly as much as WWII, if allowed to
go badly off topic and passions allowed to run unchecked (a not altogether
bad thing, for VWAR, as it was very cathartic for some people).

> I had heard that another, more academic, Vietnam discussion
>   group was going to be started up.  Will it be via UBVM?

  I beleive SIXTIES-L will be moderated (someone correct me?) and so the
discussion will be on a higher level (more Apollonian than Dionysian).

> Lou

Larry J


JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 19:16:55 GMT
From:    Stephen Baldwin <smb@NETMGRS.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: AMERICAN concentration camps? Wrong!!

>
>       While a literal definition of "concentration camp" denotes
>         a concentrating-point/detention-camp, which the detention camps
>         for Japanese-Americans certainly were, the overall connotation
>         is now EXTERMINATION CAMPS -- which ours obviously were not.
>
>       Let's maintain some vestige of intellectual integrity in this
>         discussion, shall we?
>
>       Lou Coatney, WIU

Ladies and Gentlemen!
a slight inference from Louis' mail...

does this mean that the British concentration camps of the Boer War
were not concentration camps either?

genuinely

steve baldwin
smb@netmgrs.co.uk

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 14:57:34 EST
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <hb9388@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: INF: El Alamein strengths

Steve,

I think the fighting ability of the Italian soldier, even though there are many
cases where he fought well, was still inferior to that of the German Afika
Korps.  Yes, in a set piece defense like El Alamein, the Italian soldier
could and did fight effectively.  However, since the Italian infantry divisions
in North Africa lacked the amount of organic transport the mobile German units
had, they were a liability, especially after the British broke through in the
north.

There are many reasons for the defeat of the Afrika Korps at El Alamein.
However, I still think, in a nutshell, the quanitative superiority of
Montgomery's 8th Army is what did Rommel in, plus the scarcity of supplies
reaching the Afrika Korps at the end of a VERY long supply line that was
quite effectively being interdicted by the British airpower on Malta
and along the coastal road (the via Balbia).

Bear

Barrett F. Lowe               RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, West Point  (e-mail:  hb9388%usma6@trotter.usma.edu)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 14:10:23 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Polesti raids misinformation

> Received: from MAILQUEUE by PCAD (Mercury 1.11); Mon, 7 Mar 94 7:51:41 GMT-6
> Return-path: <@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU:owner-wwii-l@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
> Received: from UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu by PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU (Mercury 1.11);
>     Mon, 7 Mar 94 7:51:33 GMT-6

Hello, Alan!

Your statement below is correct, and I can add nothing further to it.
Obviously Ploesti became more accessible once enemy airfields were
captured on the south European continent and in the Balkans,
particularly.

Thanks for the additional comment.

Terry

------------------------------------------------------------------
 > Prof. Moore says,...
>
> >    Ploesti was bombed a total of 44 times during the course of the
> >war. There was even one raid of P-38's loaded down with bombs that
> >was sent to attack the refineries there. It had long been a juicy and
> >tempting target to American planners. The problem was always
> >distance and the fact that it was so heavily defended for obvious
> >reasons.
> >
> >   The big raid on Ploesti in 1942, I think, in which we lost so many
> >B-24's were part of the IXth Air Force operating out of North Africa.
> >There were 5 combat cameramen that made the raid and only one
> >survived, and the only footage you will ever see of that raid, and I
> >think this cameraman shot a total of 526 feet of film during the
> >course of that raid, was all shot by this man. His name was Jerry
> >Joswick who wrote a fascinating book on this topic.
>
> And as I recall from my readings many years ago now, they switched to low
> level bombings, on the order of 200 feet. This was so they could avoid as
> much flak and be as inconspicuous as possible. I believe their accuracy
> increased as well. -Al
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Alan Wild, LAN Mgr.  Father of 1.5             Voice:          (401) 792-2611
> ACC - Lippitt - URI  American Legion Post 102. FAX:            (401) 792-5479
> Kingston, RI  02881                            Bitnet:           AWild@URIACC
>                                                Internet: AWild@URIACC.URI.EDU
>
> Murphy's Uncertainty Principle:    You can know something has gone wrong only
>                                     when you make an odd number of mistakes.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 15:16:55 -0500
From:    "John E. Kollar" <KILLAR@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Peenemunde, V2 etc

        There are also reports of a nerve gas that was developed, but
that Hitler thought that the Allies also had it so he did not use
it.  Air to Air Missiles where also developed, and saw extremely
limited like on or two usage, rocket glider bombs sunk an Italian
battleship, name to follow, and also punched a hole in an American
Light Cruiser, also name to follow.  Surface to Air missiles were on
the drawing board, the closed cycle submarine engine, a submarine
that was as capable, almost, as a modern soviet foxtrot/tango, homing
torpedoes for both surface and subsurface use, an A4, a V-2 on
with a second stage to hit the US, the list goes on, a bomber
capable of bombing the US but work didn't get too far.  That's
about all I can think of for the moment, I am new to this group,
so if sources are required just tells me and I'll provide, I used
to be on a modersated Mil-Hist group and almost everyone had to
quote at some point or other.
                                        John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 14:10:53 -0600
From:    muckb1@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: Re: Polesti raids misinformation

On Mon, 7 Mar 1994, Alan Wild wrote:
>
> And as I recall from my readings many years ago now, they switched to low
> level bombings, on the order of 200 feet. This was so they could avoid as
> much flak and be as inconspicuous as possible. I believe their accuracy
> increased as well. -Al
>

Mr. Wild,
        My grandfather, who was one of the looky few who survived the
later of the Polesti raids, has spoken of flying in a very low altitutes
to avoid radar contact, but he said that they would assend to bombing
altitute shortly before reaching the oil fields.
        I will be seeing him over break and will talk to him about the
bombings then.  If I get more specific information I will post it here.

C.K. Bryant
muchb1@uxa.ecn.bgu

"The Riskier the road, the greater the profit."
        The 62nd Rule of Acquisition

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 14:20:00 LCL
From:    SCHERRER TIM A <SCHERRET.TRANSCOM@TRANSCOM.SAFB.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: Bombing of Dresden /v1, v2

Don't forget there was an on-going deception plan that was feeding
information back to the Germans that the impact points were different
than expected so they would retarget them into the countryside, hopefully
only scaring cows into not producing milk, versus destroying buildings.
Again, I'm over 230+ from my references but I believe the Germans
retargeted which took some of the pressure off London.

>On Fri, 4 Mar 1994 14:17:26 +0100 Emmanuel Gustin said:
>>No, they were far to inaccurate to be aimed at something as small as an
>>airfield.  Most were fired at cities, and they often missed. London was
>>hit by 2419 V-1s out of about 8000 fired at the city. Antwerp was hit
by
>>2448, but I don't know how many were fired this way...

During the Gulf War I was giving a briefing about a SCUD strike, and the
General asked how a SCUD missile determines where it impacts.  I spent
the entire night researching the question and when I briefed the
information, the General was reading a message and basically ignoring me.
 I have a feeling if we were listening to air raid sirens in a bunker
rather than a cozy command center in the cornfields of Illinois, he would
have listened a lot closer.

The CEP of a V-2 can't be too far off that of a SCUD, or at least the
Iraqi variants.   A 5 or 10 mile CEP isn't so bad when you aren't
shooting at a pinpoint target.  The idea of the weapon was vengeance, and
it made it more effective as a psychological weapon if it wasn't targeted
at anything in particular.  If they only fell near military installations
then people would move away from them and feel secure.  When they fall
out of the sky at random, that is a terror weapon.

>>Anyone know offhand the CEP for a V2?  5 miles?  10?  Pretty bad, in
any
>>case.  It's interesting to me that the V2 bombardment came much closer
to
>>cracking civilian morale than the Blitz did, even though the actual
effect
>>was much less.

Our nickname for SCUD was "Sure could use directions", and the USAF song
at that time was "Looking for SCUD's in all the wrong places".

Tim A. Scherrer
1LT, USAR
USTRANSCOM

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 14:45:40 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Peenemunde, V2 etc

> Received: from MAILQUEUE by PCAD (Mercury 1.11); Fri, 4 Mar 94 15:18:38 GMT-6
> Return-path: <@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU:owner-wwii-l@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
> Received: from UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu by PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU (Mercury 1.11);
>     Fri, 4 Mar 94 15:18:30 GMT-6



Hello, again, Gudmundur and any others interested in this post!

Here goes the rest of the message from this morning.

                  Experimental Reconnaissance

Arado Ar 240
      Ar 440

Blohm and Voss Bv 141
               DFS 228

Fieseler Fi 256

Junkers Ju 8-635

Messerschmitt Me 261 Adolfine

Siebel Si 201


                Experimental Float Planes and Flying Boats

Arado  Ar 231
       Ar 233

Blohm and Voss Ha 140

Heinkel He 120

Blohm and Voss Bv 238

Dornier Do 214 and 216



                  Experimental Transport

Blohm and Voss Bv 144

Fieseler Fi 333

                   Helicopters

 Dohlhoff Wn 342

 Flettner FL 265
          FL 282 Kolibri (Humming Bird)

Focke-Achgelis FA 223 (Drache)
               FA 225
               FA 284
               FA 330 Bachstaltz

Nagler and Rolz NR 54

                      Experimental Aircraft

DFS 332
DFS 346

Focke-Achgelis EA 269

Heinkel He 112 (modified)
        He 176
        He 178

Henschel Hs 128
         Hs 130

Junkers EF 61

Lippisch  DM-1

Messerschmitt Me 209

                      Project Series (Drawing Board)

                        Arado Projects

E-381
E-530

                     Blohm and Voss Projects

Bv 40
P.163
P.170
P.188
P.194
P.196
P.202
P.203
P.204
P.205
P.208
P.209
P.211
P.212
P.213
P.215


                      Daimler-Benz Projects

Project A

                       Dornier Projects

P.247
P.252
P.256

                      Focke-Wulf Projects

Rotary Wing Ramjet Fighter


                       Gotha Projects

P.60

                        Heinkel Projects

P.1076
P.1077 Julia
P.1078A
P.1080
P.1095

                         Henschel Projects

P.122
P.135

                         Junkers Projects

EF 125
EF 126 Lilly
EF 127 Dolly
EF 128 Willi
EF 130

                          Messerschmitt Projects

P.1101
P.1104
P.1106
P.1107
P.1110/11
P.1111
P.1116

Focke-Wulf Fw 206
           Fw 300

Messerschmitt Me 208

Messerschmitt-Caudron MeC 164


                    Skoda Projects

 Skoda Ramjet Fighter


 All interested parties. That is it. If anyone wants what info I have
on any of these, please send me the alpha-numeric designation and I
will get what I have to you.

Hope this has been of help.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 14:46:50 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: To Terry Moore about Peenemunde

> Received: from MAILQUEUE by PCAD (Mercury 1.11); Sat, 5 Mar 94 12:15:27 GMT-6
> Return-path: <@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU:owner-wwii-l@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
> Received: from UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu by PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU (Mercury 1.11);
>     Sat, 5 Mar 94 12:15:25 GMT-6


Hello, Gudmundur!

Will get you what I have of General Balck. I had corresponded with
him several times before he died.

Will get back to you.

Terry
--------------------------------------------------------------------

     Hey Terry Moore
>
> Thanks for your great offer, I would be interested in almost anything
> that you can get me, Peenemunde or not :) I have horrible times getting
> any library info here and I only have money to get a dozen or so U-boat
> books a year :) Peenemunde is a special interest to me for the V-2 and
> the Laffenwertz(?) project. Can you send me both your e-mail address and
> a list (if possible) of what you have? I would be most grateful to say
> the least.
>
> PS: How come do your posts look different than the others? Are you
> e-mails re-routed to the list or something?
>
> PS II: I also saw you offering something about Balck, my favorite
> Wehrmacht officer, Could you also send me list of info in him/his
> commands etc.?
>
> I think that this would be best continued off the list as I dont think
> most members care for this info :)
>
>
> Thanks again.
>
>
> Gudmundur J. Helgason
>
> E-mail:    gummihe@ismennt.is
>

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 14:35:00 LCL
From:    SCHERRER TIM A <SCHERRET.TRANSCOM@TRANSCOM.SAFB.AF.MIL>
Subject: "60 Minutes": Russian Hitler (R

>Larry, this may seem a bit off topic, but I believe this post to be
relevant to
>your list. Last night, "60 Minutes" did a profile on, and darn it, I
can't spell
>his name, Vladimir Zhusskowski who absolutely sent *CHILLS UP MY SPINE*
with his
>plans for Mother Russia in two years hence when he becomes President of
Russia.
>Notice that I said "when" and not "if."

I watched this as well, and he scared the &*%$# out of me.  I just wonder
how much support he truly has and how much his supporters drum up and
manufacture when needed.

>I further predict that he will take back the Baltic States (except
possibly
>Latvia). I further predict that he shall protect the Bosnian Serbs and
permit
>the wholesale slaughter of innocent Muslims.

I believe if he ever gets in power he will probably incite a full blow
civil war across the former USSR.  The Baltics will not give up their
freedom without a fight, as will many of the other republics.  They were
ready to fight for it before they had it, and they won't give it up
cheaply.  Once someone has tasted freedom, they aren't going to want to
give it back without a fight--or at least I hope.

>I believe that he has the support of the demoralized Russian Army and
secret
>police. I believe that NOW is the time for any Jew living in Russia to
take his
>advice (and he said this last night on 60 minutes) and move to Israel.
Nothing
>but pogroms await them in two years hence. Another Kristallnacht. But
worse.
>Pogroms have always been a part of Russian heritage.

He claims support, and is trying to buy them of with offers of a country
house for every officer, chicken in every pot, etc.....

>If I am not mistaken, America has an Executive Order in effect (with
good
>reason) which states that the CIA or any other organ of the American
government
>shall not murder a Head of State (ala Salvador Allende).

>Thus, the time to act is NOW, while he lacks any title.

I can't argue that this guy has to be stopped, but killing him would just
make him a martyr--it would be much better if he somehow discredits
himself.  He is a loose cannn and may very well dothis himself.  Maybe he
should invest in Arkansas real estate?

To me he semed crazed, and perhaps even under the influence of drugs.
Any man who threatens to wipe out hundreds of thousands of people if they
harm his lackey in the Baltics has to be half insane.  At lease Saddam
has somebody he can confide with and be understood.

Tim A. Scherrer
1LT, USAR
USTRANSCOM

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 14:54:38 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bombing of Dresden /v1, v2

> Received: from MAILQUEUE by PCAD (Mercury 1.11); Mon, 7 Mar 94 12:30:40 GMT-6
> Return-path: <@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU:owner-wwii-l@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
> Received: from UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu by PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU (Mercury 1.11);
>     Mon, 7 Mar 94 12:30:32 GMT-6
> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU by UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2)
>    with BSMTP id 3686; Mon, 07 Mar 94 13:26:24 EST


Hello, Ken!

That may be due to the fact that it was the anticipation factor that
did a lot of people in as opposed to a bombing raid. One could hear
the bombers approaching and the ack-ack fire gave people a sense that
something at least was being done. With the V-2's you never knew and
the fear was always constant with no emotional relief.

Terry

>
> On Fri, 4 Mar 1994 14:17:26 +0100 Emmanuel Gustin said:
> >No, they were far to inaccurate to be aimed at something as small as an
> >airfield.  Most were fired at cities, and they often missed. London was
> >hit by 2419 V-1s out of about 8000 fired at the city. Antwerp was hit by
> >2448, but I don't know how many were fired this way...
>
> Anyone know offhand the CEP for a V2?  5 miles?  10?  Pretty bad, in any
> case.  It's interesting to me that the V2 bombardment came much closer to
> cracking civilian morale than the Blitz did, even though the actual effect
> was much less.
>

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 15:05:14 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gen:  PC on my PC

> Received: from MAILQUEUE by PCAD (Mercury 1.11); Mon, 7 Mar 94 8:34:40 GMT-6
> Return-path: <@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU:owner-wwii-l@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
> Received: from UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu by PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU (Mercury 1.11);


Hello, Larry!

Thanks for writing. I would like to respond.


> Terry, my position if just the opposite, I don't lump all Germans in with
> the Nazi's, any more than I lump all Russians in with the Communist, or
> all Vietnamese in with the Viet Cong.

    You may not, but what you say and what you may mean may be
misinterpreted. To me the Nazis will always be the card-carrying kind
associated with WWII. The term Nazis used these days in Germany and
elsewhere is misleading to me, and I simply don't like that word in
today's context, but too often that word has been used to
characterize a whole people when that simply wasn't so. Anyway, I
personally try to avoid the word, if it isn't appropriate.

 > To (finally) come to my point, I think that any system
(government, religion,
> whatever) that thinks it's "totally" right relieves its members of the need
> to make moral and ethical evaluations of their conduct. This leads to the
> sort of android we find in Amon Hoeth, or the guards along the Iron Curtain
> (or atleast their commanders who issued the "shoot to kill" orders).

    I agree with that, and that is always the challenge with any
system of government, because I think that it is very easy to fall
into that trap.

    Thanks, Larry!

    Terry

>

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 16:03:39 EST
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor,
         Marist Coll" <JZML@MARISTB.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Bombing of Dresden /v1, v2

> On Fri, 4 Mar 1994 14:17:26 +0100 Emmanuel Gustin said:
> >No, they were far to inaccurate to be aimed at something as small as an
> >airfield.  Most were fired at cities, and they often missed. London was
> >hit by 2419 V-1s out of about 8000 fired at the city. Antwerp was hit by
> >2448, but I don't know how many were fired this way...
>
> Anyone know offhand the CEP for a V2?  5 miles?  10?  Pretty bad, in any
> case.  It's interesting to me that the V2 bombardment came much closer to
> cracking civilian morale than the Blitz did, even though the actual effect
> was much less.
Please translate "CEP". Thank you

Jonah Triebwasser
Adjunct Instructor
Marist College
Dyson Building (Adult Education)
Poughkeepsie, New York12601
Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
E-Mail: jzml@maristb.marist.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 15:13:32 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Son of PC on my PC

> Received: from MAILQUEUE by PCAD (Mercury 1.11); Mon, 7 Mar 94 8:55:58 GMT-6
> Return-path: <@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU:owner-wwii-l@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
> Received: from UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu by PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU (Mercury 1.11);
>     Mon, 7 Mar 94 8:55:51 GMT-6

Hello, Tim!

I agree with your statements. I just want to comment on the last one.

>
> The Nazi's called themselves Nazi's, who are we to second guess them.

    That is true, but the less educated or less well-informed tend to
lump all Germans into that category when talking about the war. The
term Nazi is appropriate with the card-carrying kind but it is unfair
for some to use that word without really being aware of what it
really means.

    Thank you.

    Terry



Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 15:24:04 -0600
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: Gen. Steiner: Defence of Berlin

>
> Can anyone else provide me with more *pre 1945* information on this very
> interesting General Steiner? Unfortunately, the book does not discuss any
> contributions he may have made prior to the defence of Berlin.
>
> Chuck

Hi Chuck,

Felix Steiner was born 23 May 1896 in Ebenrode and was one officer of
the SS who saw combat during WWI as an officer.  Later he served with
boarder protection units and the Reichswehr but joined the SS
Verfuegungstruppe in 1935.  He was in charge of training while in the
SS at that time and his core belief was that "Sweat saves blood".

He served in Poland and France where he got his Knights Cross but in
Russia he came into his own.  He built a reputation as a leader by
being sent to faltering points of the line and attacking or holding in
situations that were generally deemed impossible.

At one point GenFM Model assigned him the key task of defending his
army from being encircled and Steiner's men held out for two weeks.
Model personally reviewed the remaining men of Steiner's command that
saved his army - there were 200 left to be reviewed.

During the Battle of Berlin he and Walther Wenck (Army General) both
realized that they had insufficient forces to effect a rescue so
Steiner directed his men to "avoid capture by the Soviets".  Steiner
was taken prisoner at Lueneburg, Germany, on 3 May 1945.  He died in
Munich 17  May 1966.

This is from Angolia's _On the Field of Honor_ Vol. 1.

Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 21:25:26 GMT
From:    Stephen Baldwin <smb@NETMGRS.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: INF: El Alamein strengths

Hi there Bear!

>       Steve,
>
>       I think the fighting ability of the Italian soldier, even though there are many
>       cases where he fought well, was still inferior to that of the German Afika
>       Korps.
Yes. I would not dispute that - but they have been virtually
dismissed as pizza topping by some, which is to underestimate them.

> Yes, in a set piece defense like El Alamein, the Italian soldier
>       could and did fight effectively.
And that _is_ what we're discussing :-)
...so you would agree with me that they did fight effectively...
or at least - a good number of Italian units were not a pushover.


> However, since the Italian infantry divisions
>       in North Africa lacked the amount of organic transport the mobile German units
>       had, they were a liability, especially after the British broke through in the
>       north.
That is a fair point. Once the line cracked, it was all over wasn't it.


>
>       There are many reasons for the defeat of the Afrika Korps at El Alamein.
>       However, I still think, in a nutshell, the quanitative superiority of
>       Montgomery's 8th Army is what did Rommel in, plus the scarcity of supplies
>       reaching the Afrika Korps at the end of a VERY long supply line that was
>       quite effectively being interdicted by the British airpower on Malta
>       and along the coastal road (the via Balbia).
This is where your superior knowledge comes to the fore...
I have never disputed the numerical superiority (and in a few instances
the technical superiority) of the Allies. I think you would argue
that it was obviously decisive. I would say "not necessarily".
That the axis had supply problems too I would not dispute. (I
also think I need to run off and sit in the library for a few days!).
Numerical and technical superiority can still be thwarted by
careful defence as I have tried to illustrate with
previous postings to the discussion. Rommel nevertheless achieved a good
deep defence. Sure, his line was
brittle since when it cracked, it disintegrated, but whilst it held,
Monty had to "crumble" it away and he also had to adapt his
plan to the conditions (which I think is a plus point for him).
This "crumbling" action was courageous for the reasons
spoken of before - risking high (by WWII standards) casualties
with a force that had been defeated earlier etc. BTW I haven't
read of any alternative strategies put forward by the Corelli
Barnett school. What does he suggest Monty should have done
vis-a-vis the attrition/wearing down part of the operation?

>       RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
How long have  you been  a fan of Scottish soccer?

best regards

Steve (Baldwin)
smb@netmgrs.co.uk

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 15:39:18 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: The 106th, the Ardennes, and a friend of von

> Received: from MAILQUEUE by PCAD (Mercury 1.11); Sat, 5 Mar 94 14:41:31 GMT-6
> Return-path: <@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU:owner-wwii-l@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>



Hello, Con!

Thanks for your note, but I still feel that some questions weren't
answered.

>      Reference your questions about civilianization of the academies, the
> argument being made by Sen. Nunn and others is that the Academies are too
> "insular and isolated" from the educational mainstream with just military
> faculty.

    It seems to me that Sen. Nunn has no right to mix into the
internal affairs or make judgements about matters that are
exclusively the domain of the USMA. After all, you and your
colleagues along with the administration there have the right to
decide just what changes need to be made, as I see it. Your situation
there reminds me of the similar situation we have here in Texas with
the controversy over public education. Too many administrators
without a teaching background have too much influence on what goes on
in the classroom. How can Sen. Nunn or anyone else in Washington
decide what is best for your institution when their business is to
govern, not decide what is best for the cadets at West Point or at
any of the other service academies.

essure is being put on USAFA and USMA because the Naval Academy
> now has more than 50% civilian faculty.

I am not all that convinced that that is a good thing. So what if the
NA has 50% civilian faculty. Those cadets there as at the USMA are
there to get the best possible military education available. I am not
convinced that a mixed faculty will enhance that. I grant you I am
prejudiced, but I think we are all seeing what is going on with the
navy. I am afraid that this "humanizing" or civilianization program
you mention is contrary to the nature of your schools, and will
ultimately lead to a diminution of discipline and a lowering of
standards.

he initial Senate
> legislation actually set that same goal for us, but it was changed later
> after consultations with the Academies.\

That was at least decent of them, but I still believe that the
business of Congress is to pass laws and govern, not mix in the
internal affairs of the service academies.

This is just my feeling, and I would welcome your comments or anyone
else's for that matter.


Our actual goal now is
25% civilian > faculty by the year 2002.

    I see that as a giant step backward. Sorry, but that is just the
way I feel.

    Thank you, Con, and all the best. Frankly, you have my deepest
sympathies.

    Terry


Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 15:44:35 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gen:  PC on my PC

> Received: from MAILQUEUE by PCAD (Mercury 1.11); Mon, 7 Mar 94 11:18:15 GMT-6
> Return-path: <@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU:owner-wwii-l@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>

Hello, Christopher!


> When speaking tactically, I usually say "German", unless the SS is involved,
> then it's CERTAINLY "NAZI" (or SS), since if the SS weren't nazis, then the
> NKVD weren't communists!

 I can accept that distinction, but many times I think some overlook
that difference.

> At the national level, it's hardly rational to say anything BUT nazi.  It's
> not like the Social Democrats were conducting the war.

    I agree with that and would only use that term in that context or
with those involved in the Holocaust or promoting the ideology of
Nazism.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 15:50:28 -0600
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Peenemunde, V2 etc

> I've actually seen a photograph of a secret weapon consisting of a giant
> speaker/sound system that literally blasted attacking soldiers to bits.
> It got a few tests on the eastern front, but the Germans never deployed it
> because, well, it was several stories high & took several days to erect
> before an attack.  Not a very feasible weapon, but it did apparently take
> out nearly a company at a blast in its tests.
>
> ken koester


I think there is a kid down the street from me that has one in is car.
You will never miss him coming down the road.  If only I could get him
not to beta test it at 0200 hours.... :-/

Bill Huber --

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 15:47:51 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Rohm shot

> Received: from MAILQUEUE by PCAD (Mercury 1.11); Sat, 5 Mar 94 7:30:20 GMT-6
> Return-path: <@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU:owner-wwii-l@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>


Hello, Chistopher!

> Wasn't Pfeffer von Salomon Jewish, or from a Jewish background?  I vaguely
> recall "Order of the Death's Head" mentioning this, but it could have been
> another book instead.

    He may have been. I remember reading a long while back that he
may have been of Jewish ancestry. I will have to check on that.

It has been a while since I have read anything on the early days of
Hitler and the NSDAP.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 16:40:42 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Eisenhower & German POWs

> Received: from MAILQUEUE by PCAD (Mercury 1.11); Sun, 6 Mar 94 18:53:16 GMT-6
> Return-path: <@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU:owner-wwii-l@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>

Hello, Curt!

Will try to respond to your post.

> I'm currently working on a research project that was inspired by James Bacque's
> book "Other Losses".  Its basic premise is that Eisenhower "quietly engineered
> the deaths of one million German prisoners", who were capture during the last
> weeks of the war.  By changing the status of these prisoners from POW to DEF
> (Disarmed Enemy Forces), Eisenhower was able to avoid living up to the
> standards of the Geneva convention and to keep the International Red Cross
> away from the camps where conditions were bad.

    That is all conjecture, unsubstantiated and opinion.

> As far as I can find out, the debate is pretty much at a stalemate with each
> side accepting that there was atrocious conditions in these camps (No
> argument there), but because statistics and interview interpretation is
> subjective each side is able to bolster their own view point.

    I'll go along with that.

> The Pro-Bacque side argues that the Other Losses is a story of
"premeditated
> atrocity and on-going conspiracy to prevent word of it ever leaking out."
> It argues that Eisenhower's intense hatred of the German people and
> willingness to carry out the "denazification" of Germany (Morganthau plan) was
> at the origin of the horrible conditions.

    Not so, in reality.

> What I would like hear:
> 1. Some opinions about the book and the debate.

    I have the book by Bacque and it cannot be obtained here in the
US, as far as I know. I have only looked through it and have not read
it carefully, but I think I know enough about it and through
interviews and reviews to make some statement on it. The figure of 1
million Germans being slowly and systematically starved to death
through Eisenhower's enmity toward the Germans is totally without
foundation. Bacque's book created a stir when it came out, but his
figures are way off, and his claim that Ike deliberately brought
about the death's of countless Germans has no basis in reality.
I fully support what Con Crane said and what Stephen Ambrose said
about Bacque's statistics. In Ambrose's own words, Bacque's figures
are "preposterous".

> 2. The possible influence of the Morganthau Plan on the POW/DEF status.

    I am not familiar with that distinction, and have never seen it
implemented anywhere under US Army jurisdiction during the war. To
the best of my knowledge, regardless of the politics in Washington at
the time, the status of POW's held in POW camps was never violated or
changed to accommodate the political climate in Washington.

> 3. The Soviet involvement in setting up the Morganthau Plan through.

    I am not familiar with that, and cannot make a determination on
that, however Stalin was wanting to have 40,000 German officers taken
out and shot after cessation of hostilities. I think this statement
was made in a conversation with Churchill at Yalta or one of his
visits to the Kremlin late in the war. I know of no active Soviet
participation or involvement in the implementation of the Morganthau
Plan, and thanks to Roosevelt, I think, it was never implemented.

 >    Morganthau's Assistant Secretary Harry Dexter White.

> 4. The issue of generalized responsibility vs. individual responsibility.

    Need to know what you mean here.

> 5. Location and conditions of British Camps.

    Do you mean those British POW camps located in Germany after the
end of the war?

 > 6. The reasoning why German POWs were held for so
long.

    Several reasons here. One, search for war criminals masquerading
as simple soldiers. Such processes took much time, depending on the
camp and the soldiers incarcerated there. Also, the attempt to
separate officers from the enlisted. Processing took much time. Also,
economic. It would have been ill-advised to turn loose hundreds of
thousands of former German soldiers onto an economy shattered by a
brutal war. Many more would have starved who didn't, and the economy
simply couldn't have supported the infusion of several hundred
thousand former POW's. Despite the careful search for German war
criminals, many slipped through the screening process.

> 7. Why did American publishers resist publishing the book in the United States.

    I don't know if it was. That is the first I have seen of that,
but then, I haven't kept up with the publishing history of Bacque's
book.

> 8. How extensive was the food shortages. >

    Substantial to say the least. See earlier response. I have talked
with many German's about this who were there when the war ended, and
all told me the same thing. They had nothing to eat at the time. They
said that the farmers fared the best as they had access to land on
which to grow food and raise cattle. What food was available to the
general populace was provided by the occupying troops.

 > I look forward to hearing the debate.

    Hope this is satisfactory.

    Terry



Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 00:35:45 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVSDS.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Peenemunde, V2 etc

On Mon, 7 Mar 1994, John E. Kollar wrote:

> rocket glider bombs sunk an Italian
> battleship, name to follow, and also punched a hole in an American
> Light Cruiser, also name to follow.

The Italian battleship was 'Roma', she was sunk by two Fritz-X guided
bombs on 9 September 1943. The battleship 'Italia' was damaged, and so was
the British 'Warspite', by the same weapon. The cruiser 'Spartan' was
sunk, 'Savannah' and 'Uganda' damaged. The destroyer Janus was sunk.
Fritz-X was not a 'glider' bomb, however.

Fritz-X was not the first guided weapon to sink a ship, however. The
British sloop 'Egret' was sunk by the Hs 293A-1 guided missile, on 27
August 1943... And Hs 293 was a rocket-powered glider bomb.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 00:44:48 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVSDS.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: INF: El Alamein strengths

On Mon, 7 Mar 1994, Stephen Baldwin wrote:

>  Emmanuel Gustin pooh-poohed the excuse that the
> weather hampered Monty's "mopping up" after "Supercharge". Whilst
> fatigue / confusion also played a large part in the failure to
> inflict a heavier defeat on the axis, the fact remains that the
> weather did play a part and does/did hamper mobility. I'm sure he
> would not dismiss the weather in such light terms when discussing
> the German advance into the Soviet Union?

You're right, I wouldn't. The situation is different, however. The
conditions were no more favourable for the Germans than for the British,
and Rommel had to deal with severe fuel shortages. And Rommel slowly
retreated for more than two months. So I find blaming it on the weather a
bit weak.

The main critisism on Monty has been that he failed to understand that
'mopping up' the enemy, as you put it, is equally or even more important
than winning the battle itself. Defeated armies can recover surprisingly
fast, unless something is done to prevent that. And I think that it was
this error, more than the weather, that determined his behaviour.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 19:45:50 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Peenemunde, V2 etc

Did the Soviets get it?  Or was Jerinovsky just talking???

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 3 Mar 1994 13:21:36 EST
From:    Aldo <HUBERT@PHYSICAL.UNCG.EDU>
Subject: NOST Extant Rubble

Does anyone know if to what extant the N. African battle fields were
cleaned-up.   Would there still be wounded tanks (which I would
imagine would be in good shape as things do not deteriorate as much
in the arid climes).




Aldo M. Hubert
                                           Aldo_Hubert@uncg.edu
University of North Carolina at Greensboro
800 Oakland Ave.
Greensboro NC 27412

Sic Friatur Crustum Dulce

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 23:53:08 EST
From:    BGF0000 <BGF0@MUSICB.MCGILL.CA>
Subject: Eisenhower and German POWs

Thank you for the great posting!  I have a few comments and questions.

LTC Crane:

You do have a good point about the mass graves.  Even though, as Ambrose
would say, the numbers may have been only a couple 100,000, Bacque has opened
another, if not a more realistic, perspective on our forces.  It is not that
I want to drag our ideas of how we conducted the war, but I want to understand
what truly happened and respect thoughs who may have died in our custody.


+++++++

Terry,

Thank you for taking the time to respond.  One thing that I have learned from
researching this project is that history is an art of interpretation, and that
is why taking a side on the debate is difficult.  Unfortunately, I the length
of the paper and time that I have on my hands doesn't allow me to take a look
at the primary sources myself, but I find that each side's arguments are
quite convincing.

The debate may still continue as to the degree of death in our camps, but from
reading the book, feeling repulsed over the description of camp conditions,
and talking with a friend of mine, who was in three of the camps, I'm finding
it hard to discount the callousness of those who were in charge.

It took nearly two years for a publisher to pick up the book, even though
it was selling like hot cakes in Europe and Japan.  I was shocked to hear
that such a controversial yet high selling book was not available in the
U.S.; however, I was able to find the book in Maryland last December.

I did some more research on the Morganthau Plan and found that at the second
Quebec conference in 1944 the Allies shut down this plan, so I can't see that
it would still have influence in 1945.

I wasn't too clear on the idea of individual responsibility, in which
individual leaders are seen as being able to influence circumstances and thus
should be held accountable, vs. generalized responsibility, in which
individuals are seen as just reacting to the current circumstances thus
not held accountable.  These are the theoretical arguments behind Bacque and
Ambrose.

One of Bacque's arguments is that the British balked at the plan to change
POWs to DEF status, and they upheld their commitment to the Geneva Convention.
So I was trying to find out how many British camps there were and their
location.

Thank you again!

Curt A. Klun
BGF0@MusicB.McGill.Ca
(Make sure the 0 in BGF0 is a zero and not the letter "O")

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 6 Mar 1994 to 7 Mar 1994
***********************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 7 Mar 1994 to 8 Mar 1994
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Status: O

There are 69 messages totalling 2490 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Rohm shot (2)
  2. "60 Minutes": Russian Hitler (fwd)
  3. Franco's Spain & The Axis Powers
  4. The Great Patriotic War
  5. WEAP: Peenemunde, V2 etc (9)
  6. Gen: Let's Drop PC and Get to WWII History
  7. v3 (3)
  8. Polesti raids misinformation (2)
  9. Russian Hitler, Fascism
 10. Bombing of Dresden /v1, v2 (3)
 11. INF: El Alamein strengths
 12. NOST Extant Rubble
 13. war in Russia
 14. GEN: AMERICAN concentration camps?  Wrong!! (2)
 15. GEN:  PC on my PC and Welcome
 16. Calling a club a spade? (4)
 17. Quest: Info on VB-16, VB-23, VS-16 or VS-23
 18. German vs Soviet Military Quality (2)
 19. Eisenhower and German POWs
 20. Bataan
 21. Bataan -- Ron Wilson's friend
 22. Hitler ancestry........ (6)
 23. ardennes
 24. Nisei "shot to death"?  Please elaborate, Ken K.
 25. Ploesti raids misinformation
 26. HOME: Nisei "shot to death"?  Please elaborate, Ken K. (4)
 27. INF: Strategic Bombing of Germany (2)
 28. Middle-east WWII battle fields
 29. final solution (2)
 30. Amarillo WWII Comemmorative Activities
 31. TAC: Italian AT units
 32. GAME: Simulations
 33. BIOG: Missing Years in Hitler's Life??
 34. ADMIN: Demise of Listowner... (3)
 35. ADMIN: Intro to WWII-L (no new items)
 36. Alcatraz vs. Lubyanka:  No difference?
 37. UNinterned Hawaiian Nisei
 38. Sound Weapon

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 22:12:19 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: Rohm shot

>
> > Received: from MAILQUEUE by PCAD (Mercury 1.11); Sat, 5 Mar 94 7:30:20 GMT-6
> > Return-path: <@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU:owner-wwii-l@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
>
>
> Hello, Chistopher!
>
> > Wasn't Pfeffer von Salomon Jewish, or from a Jewish background?  I vaguely
> > recall "Order of the Death's Head" mentioning this, but it could have been
> > another book instead.
>
>     He may have been. I remember reading a long while back that he
> may have been of Jewish ancestry. I will have to check on that.
>
> It has been a while since I have read anything on the early days of
> Hitler and the NSDAP.

I also believe that he was left alone and died of natural causes.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 22:37:04 MST
From:    Michael Markowsky <abe7@EDUC.UCALGARY.CA>
Subject: "60 Minutes": Russian Hitler (fwd)

Chuck wrote,

> his name, Vladimir Zhusskowski who absolutely sent *CHILLS UP
> MY SPINE* with his plans for Mother Russia in two years hence
> when he becomes President of Russia. Notice that I said "when"
> and not "if."

  No Doubt! On television a little while ago there was a show on
the ancient Prophets (I think it was called Ancient Prophicies)
that predicted the world would end May 5, 2000 when some
"anti-christ from Isreal emerges into the public with wealthy
supporters and has powerful weapons." It mentioned 1995 as the
time when he would gain power and appear to the world. He's
(if you believe this stufff anyway...) going to start a nuclear
war and destroy the earth.
  Now let's consider this Vlad (won't even try to spell his last
name!) as being this anti-christ... He said he was offered lot's
of money from some company in Japan, that would give him weathly
supporters... Power weapons, well this Vlad guy said he had
lasers, and being the (let's hope not) president of russia, he
would have access to tons upon tons of nuclear weapons...Chuck
mentioned two years is when he "will" become the russian
president. That would be 1996, not 1995 as predicted by the great
prophet Nostrodamus. But if something were to say..."happen" to
Boris Yeltsin, elections would be held early...

  The only thing that doesn't fit with this is the birth place as
Isreal. But the interpretation could be wrong and it could mean
something else....

  I know this is kind of silly to think about, but it COULD, just
COULD be true. All of the facts fit, it kind of sends a "CHILL UP
MY SPINE". If someone out there knows a little more about this
prophet stuff, I'd be real interested.

  Sorry to get everyone a little excited, I just thought of it
and it got me thinkin'.

> Was it not Santanaya (sp?) who said that those who forget the lessons of history
> are doomed to repeat them? Remember, what Hitler did was *NOT* some big
> surprise. He was extremely candid *UP FRONT* re: his intentions should he ever
> come to power.

  He said he'd bomb ANY country that bombed Bosnia. He said
something to the effect of, "you bomb bosnia, we bomb your
country and cities. It's only fair." Someone who threatens to
bomb another country because they are trying to help innocent
people is SICK.
  Hitler was very upfront about his plans, like Chuck said, he
wrote a book called "Mien Kampf" that described his intentions.
Well Vlad doesn't have to write a book, he has every reporter and
television camera listening to him. It scares me that there is
someone who is doing just what Hitler did, just 56 years later.
The world should take note.

> I believe that he has the support of the demoralized Russian Army and secret
> police.

 No doubt. Much like Napoleon did in 1795, Vlad is doing now. He
is gainning friends in the army. Napoleon had only his soldiers
to support him when he rose to power. Vlad may be crazy, but he
is not stupid. People don't realise what kind of power the armies
of a country hold. You get thier support and you often get a
countries support. Napoleon did this almost 200 years ago, so
take note. France went on to become an incredible world power,
crushing almost every army in it's midst. Not until 1815 was he
brought down by all of Europe and Russia. Imagine! It took all of
Europe to take this guy down. Now imagine a country already quite
powerful, like russia getting bigger, and bigger. There really
isn't a military threat in Europe now, this guy could possibly
take over Europe! The only one in his way is the USA and possibly
the Ukraine. If history repeats itself, we could be in one heck
of a jam.
  It's scary that a man who many people feel is absolutely crazy,
has access to the second most powerful country in the world.

> With the help of the second largest party (the Catholic Center Party), the
> Enabling Act, which in theory was "temporary," was passed. Hitler was the
> undisputed master of Germany following the death of Hindenburg who narrowly
> defeated Hitler for President to begin with (e.g. Yeltsin narrowly defeated t
> his nut case).

 Isn't it uncanny the resemblance? Keep in mind this guy has
lot's of german friends, most of which are Nazi's.

Chuck wrote something about "sending in a cleaner". I agree. Why
don't we just get the russian Mafia to fill him with lead like
our Mafia did to JFK.

> President. As everyone probably knows, Yeltsin has said he will
> not run again.

  He said that! YIKES!

> I don't know about the rest of you, but this man has me scared ****.
> I believe he will do <EVERY> act he has uttered. There will be no
> Politburo or Central Committee to act as a check and balance. Like
> Hitler, this man is a nihilist. He will roll the dice no matter what
> the stakes. And the "stakes" could be the safety of our great Republic.
>
> May God have mercy on all of us if he becomes "Vladimir the Terrible" as I
> forsee.
>
> The man has already said he will murder 500,000 Estonians under the aegis of
> "protecting" the Russian minority. Does that ring any bells folks?
>
> CJW
>

 There is no doubt that this guy is crazy. The guy told 60
Minutes he had "big light, er laser...that can make object
disapear". I can't remeber where I heard it, I think it was on
20/20, he said when asked if the world has a cause to be afraid
of him, "Absolutely."

 And we're about to give him control over a nuclear arsenal!
In Russia, a guy like that can president. In North America,
a guy like that can be commited, straight jacket, padded walls
and all.

Michael Markowsky (That's Ukranian...)
Abe7@educ.ucalgary.ca
Calgary, Alberta, Canada

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 22:05:51 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Franco's Spain & The Axis Powers

The Spanish army volunteers of the Blue Division did go to Russia,
and fought valiantly in the Nazi cause there.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 22:16:36 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: The Great Patriotic War

Greetings...
Your country's suffering in the Second World War was the greatest by
far.  The cruelties inflicted there by the German forces must be a
scar on the memory of everyone in what was then the Soviet Union,
including young people today who were then yet unborn.
Your comments will be welcomed, as the sheer scaale and distance of
the Eastern Front leaves details blurred somewhat.
Regards from Victoria, British Columbia, Canada.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 22:23:19 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Peenemunde, V2 etc

There was the giant Mimoyques Gun... A multi-stage cannon of very large
calibre, actually a barrel carved in rock, with propellant chambers
along its length to boost the sheel.  Its trajectory angle was aimed
vauguely in the direction of London, from the cliff of France.  Never
did actually fire, and the device was demolished by British Army
sappers in 1944.
(Sheel? Sheesh -- *shell*   :-) )

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 7 Mar 1994 22:28:42 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Gen: Let's Drop PC and Get to WWII History

Anti-Nazi German *actors* were avery special case, of course. There were
so many of them...The American movie industry benefitted enormously from
the mass exodus of German film people, actors, directors, cameramen...

Helmut Dantine, marlene Deitrich (Nazis put a price on her lovely head),
Conrad Veidt (the wicked colonel in Casablanca, who fled Germany as much
because he was homosexual as ant-Nazi...)  There were a host of wonderful
talents we were able to enjoy on the screen, courtesy of AH. (Ever notice
how *apt* that abbreviation is?  :-)   )

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 10:07:06 CET
From:    "LTC Donnell, Doug" <4atf@PIRMASENS-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Peenemunde, V2 etc

Gudmundur -
The simple answer to your question is "yes", the Germans were actively
working on many top secret weapons.

The big gun you refer to was an 800mm monster they called "Dora".  The
barrel was about 27 meters long and the range was somewhere in the
neighborhood of 50 km (not far enough to reach London).

The "V-3" was an experimental remotely piloted vehicle that had
enough problems to keep it out of production.

A follow on to the V-2 was called the A-9/A-10 which was designed to be
a two stage rocket capable of intercontinental range.  It was being
rushed to prototype production when the war ended, but obviously never
made it.

Another interesting development was the "hochdruckpumpe" which was a
sort of multiple charge cannon.  As the projectile moved down the
barrel, further charges were detonated which accelerated the projectile
to about 4500 ft/sec giving it a range of about 130km (enough to
reach London).  A prototype was built but was bombed before it was tested.

Also, with regard to chemical weapons, the Germans had done a tremendous
amount of research on various types of gasses, including some very
fast acting nerve agents.  Several factories actually produced a stockpile
of the weapons, but they were never used, probably for fear of retaliation
in kind.

Hope this helps.  There were quite a few more projects, and I have lots
more info which I'd be happy to dig out if anyone is interested.

                         Doug Donnell
                         Ruppertsweiler, Germany
                         (Home of a recycled Westwall bunker, now
                               used by NATO)

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 11:29:31 MET
From:    Ireneusz Jakobik <SCUD@PLSZUS11.BITNET>
Subject: v3

Hello all,
Doug Donnell writes:

>The "V-3" was an experimental remotely piloted vehicle that had
>enough problems to keep it out of production.

This vehicle wasn't V-3 weapon, V-3 was a multiple cannon buit at
French coast, Doug writes about it later:

>Another interesting development was the "hochdruckpumpe" which was a
>sort of multiple charge cannon.  As the projectile moved down the
>barrel, further charges were detonated which accelerated the projectile
>to about 4500 ft/sec giving it a range of about 130km (enough to
>reach London).  A prototype was built but was bombed before it was tested.

It was bombed just before the end of the war, but it wasn't completely
damaged. It could be used again and British government asked French to
destroy it. French didn't agree but British did it without French permission,
they sent a saboteur team, which blew the whole thing up.
  Irek.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 06:56:32 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Peenemunde, V2 etc

> Received: from MAILQUEUE by PCAD (Mercury 1.11); Tue, 8 Mar 94 3:14:18 GMT-6
> Return-path: <@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU:owner-wwii-l@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>


Hello, Doug!

There are one or two points to your post I want to comment on.

 The simple answer to your question is "yes", the
Germans were actively > working on many top secret weapons.

    That is true. Please see my post to the list on a list of the
projects the Germans were working on or had in various stages of
testing.

> The big gun you refer to was an 800mm monster they called "Dora".  The
> barrel was about 27 meters long and the range was somewhere in the
> neighborhood of 50 km (not far enough to reach London).

    If I am interpreting this part of your post correctly, the "Dora"
was, as you say, the ultimate in siege artillery. It was used
exclusively on the Russian Front, gaining fame during the siege of
Sevastopol in the Crimea. It was never used or even contemplated to
be used to bombard England. It required 1400 men to set and fire this
weapon and the whole unit was commanded by a general.


    Thank you for your post.


    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 07:40:55 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Polesti raids misinformation

Mr. Bryant writes,...

>        My grandfather, who was one of the looky few who survived the
>later of the Polesti raids, has spoken of flying in a very low altitutes
>to avoid radar contact, but he said that they would assend to bombing
>altitute shortly before reaching the oil fields.
>        I will be seeing him over break and will talk to him about the
>bombings then.  If I get more specific information I will post it here.
>
>C.K. Bryant
>muchb1@uxa.ecn.bgu

That sounds very interesting. He could probably tell of stupified people
looking up at the underbelly of his squadron thundering just overhead.
Ask him if they waved to each other.

I'm also trying to recall,... it seems to me they changed their tactics a
couple more times, like your grandfather says, attaining altitude for the
target, and (again, if I recall correctly) using delayed fuses and dropping
them literally right through the rooves. I believe they might've had to
learn to delay the fuses the hard way. Your grandfather could confirm or
refute that one. -Al

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Wild, LAN Mgr.  Father of 1.5             Voice:          (401) 792-2611
ACC - Lippitt - URI  American Legion Post 102. FAX:            (401) 792-5479
Kingston, RI  02881                            Bitnet:           AWild@URIACC
                                               Internet: AWild@URIACC.URI.EDU

Murphy's Uncertainty Principle:    You can know something has gone wrong only
                                    when you make an odd number of mistakes.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 08:25:12 EST
From:    Aldo <HUBERT@PHYSICAL.UNCG.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Peenemunde, V2 etc

Hello Terry,


Just curious if you (or anyone) would know what is the destructive
power one shell of "Dora"'s (as explaned below).   What kind of
affect did it make on opposing troops/buildings/equipment?

Thanks,

Just curious, Aldo

---------Previous Message Below---------

There are one or two points to your post I want to comment on.

 The simple answer to your question is "yes", the
Germans were actively > working on many top secret weapons.

    That is true. Please see my post to the list on a list of the
projects the Germans were working on or had in various stages of
testing.

> The big gun you refer to was an 800mm monster they called "Dora".  The
> barrel was about 27 meters long and the range was somewhere in the
> neighborhood of 50 km (not far enough to reach London).

    If I am interpreting this part of your post correctly, the "Dora"
was, as you say, the ultimate in siege artillery. It was used
exclusively on the Russian Front, gaining fame during the siege of
Sevastopol in the Crimea. It was never used or even contemplated to
be used to bombard England. It required 1400 men to set and fire this
weapon and the whole unit was commanded by a general.


    Thank you for your post.


    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370


Aldo M. Hubert
                                           Aldo_Hubert@uncg.edu
University of North Carolina at Greensboro
800 Oakland Ave.
Greensboro NC 27412

Sic Friatur Crustum Dulce

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 14:28:55 GMT
From:    Dmitri Brasoun <brasun@MFMJESSY.UNIV-MRS.FR>
Subject: Russian Hitler, Fascism

Dear Chuck and others!

I have read attentively your program of the preventive
actions and have to note that it will not work.
All what do you want - it's more and more confrontation.
O.K., but remember: the desire of the boys in the black
uniform is absolutely identical. So, you are going to
play according to the rules of opponents. Moreover, you
give all trumps to Nazi.
        You wrote:
>Just as the Germans foolishly gave Lenin safe passage
>through Germany to help their mar effort in order that
>Lenin might ferment Revolution in Petrograd they opened
>a Pandora's Box that they paid for in spades a generation
>later.

You, Americans beleive too in the force of one person in the history (a-la Stallone): it turns out it was
necessary only to stop Lenin and Russian Revolution
would not happen, it was necessary only to neutralize
Hitler WWII would not happen, it is necessary only
to take away Zhirinovsky ( two details for Michael:
1) V.Zhir. is Jew, 2) Of course, he had written already
book which is called something... "My struggle for
Great Russia"...I don't remember exactly. But it's
bestseller undoubtly) and everything will be wonderful.
Is it really?
        My strong opinion that nazism grows from bottom,
from common people. This is hurricane of the hatred.
Of course, always there are persons who would like to
control this hurricane. Successfully or not - it's
not important. Finally, the necessary figure appears.
What do we know about other candidates on the official
of "furer" in Germany in 30s?
        As for Russia now the proccess is begining only
and I am not sure that V.Z. is the finish leader. But
the hurricane of the hatred exists already and draws into
its vortex more and more people.
        What about to think about these people and not
to hear the crazy leader? For example, defend the rights
of Russians in Baltics states if you don't want that
it will be "done" by Bladimir Volfovich.

Best regards,
                                Dmitry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 14:36:10 CET
From:    "LTC Donnell, Doug" <4atf@PIRMASENS-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Re: v3

Irek -
My info on the V-3 came from the Ballantine book "German Secret Weapons" which
says ". . .another project was the Schmetterling rocket.  This was adapted from the design of the Hs-293 glider bomb, and once again waas fitted with four
strap-on boosters for an assisted takeoff.  About sixty of this weapon
(which some christened the V-3) were produced, although it never went into
service. . .".

I also seem to remember other references to V weapons, so I suspect that
some of the development efforts were given "V" nicknames -- just a
guess.

Anyway, thanks for the posting.

                           Doug Donnell
                           Ruppertsweiler, GE

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 08:35:18 EST
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Bombing of Dresden /v1, v2

On Mon, 7 Mar 1994 14:54:38 GMT-6 Terry Moore said:
>That may be due to the fact that it was the anticipation factor that
>did a lot of people in as opposed to a bombing raid. One could hear
>the bombers approaching and the ack-ack fire gave people a sense that
>something at least was being done. With the V-2's you never knew and
>the fear was always constant with no emotional relief.

Possibly.  I think it was the lack of warning, plus the crapshoot nature
of the beast:  there was absolutely nothing one could do to improve one's
chances, save move to Scotland (-:  One moment, you could be walking down
the street; the next, a collection of little pieces.

>> Anyone know offhand the CEP for a V2?  5 miles?  10?  Pretty bad, in any
>> case.  It's interesting to me that the V2 bombardment came much closer to
>> cracking civilian morale than the Blitz did, even though the actual effect
>> was much less.

I answered my own question last night.  Dunnegan gives the range as 360 km,
the CEP 6.5 km with a warhead of 1 ton.  Rather impressive, given the
state of the art, but not particularly military.  Incidentally, the SCUD
is a direct descendent of the V2, developed by some of the same people,
apparently.

ken koester
maint2@ers.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 14:41:51 CET
From:    "LTC Donnell, Doug" <4atf@PIRMASENS-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Peenemunde, V2 etc

Hi Terry,

Your're quite correct in stating that "Dora" was for the Eastern
Front.  It's my understanding that the long range goal of the research
that went into it was to produce (among other things) a gun that
could hit London.  Sorry for any misunderstanding.

TNX for the posting.

                          Doug Donnell
                          Ruppertsweiler, GE

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 08:46:42 EST
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: INF: El Alamein strengths

On Mon, 7 Mar 1994 21:25:26 GMT Stephen Baldwin said:
>This "crumbling" action was courageous for the reasons
>spoken of before - risking high (by WWII standards) casualties
>with a force that had been defeated earlier etc. BTW I haven't

"Courageous" is too strong.  Basically, it's all Monty could think of doing,
IMHO.

>read of any alternative strategies put forward by the Corelli
>Barnett school. What does he suggest Monty should have done
>vis-a-vis the attrition/wearing down part of the operation?

Well, =The Rommel Papers= suggest that Rommel was most afraid of a quick,
violent stab through his lines, a fanning out, and then a mobile battle he
wouldn't have the petrol to fight.  British tactics and strategy at Alamein
suggest they still hadn't completely mastered how to integrate arms, defeat
AT screens, and otherwise wage mobile war.  Alamein was a triumph of will
for the British commanders & 8th army men, but I wouldn't read much more
into it than that, except that, having to attack (Churchill (-: ), they
very sensibly cut their coats according to their cloth.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 08:08:18 -0600
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: NOST Extant Rubble

> Does anyone know if to what extant the N. African battle fields were
> cleaned-up.   Would there still be wounded tanks (which I would
> imagine would be in good shape as things do not deteriorate as much
> in the arid climes).
>
> Aldo M. Hubert

Hi Aldo,

I have a photograph of a German 88mm flak gun in near Tobruk that was
taken in 1967.  It was in very good condition judging from the photo.
Near El Alamein there is an out door museum of armored vehicles that
were found out in the desert.  It was established quite recently to
promote tourism of the old battle site.  I read of it in the "Stars &
Strips" in an article about the 50th anniversary of the battle.

In the book _Alamein and the Desert War_ there is a photograph (in
color) that shows an Arab with a German gas can and half his right
arm.  The caption reads something like "since the war an average of
one Arab a day is killed by mines from the war" that book was
published in 1967.

An Italian friend of mine bought a German helmet in Libya 3 years ago
for about $5.00.  It was perfect.  Nice leather liner and perfect
paint with a single army decal.  He saw it in a bazaar there, lucky
bugger....   Americans are still not real well thought of there so I
would not recommend going to see if there are any more.  Europeans
are free to travel there as far as I know, Lello had no trouble....

There is a book out called _Lady Be Good_ which is about a B-24
bomber that crash landed in the desert and was discovered in the
1960s in very good condition.  Its an amazing story surrounding the
crash and a wonderful read aside from the good information about the
plane and its condition.

So, yeah, there's a lot still out there but the tanks etc. were
probably pretty well messed up by armor-piercing ammunition which is
why they were left the in the first place.  The Germans also had a
nasty habit of boobytraping their equipment that got left behind so
beware of that too.

There is a lot of interesting things in German lakes too.  I have
seen photos of deuce and a half trucks loaded with German small arms
being dumped in lakes.  Has anybody else seen these photos?  I can't
remember where I saw them and would like to re-examine them.  They
are published in a book somewhere.

In a lake near the Austrian / German boarder there are a number of
German military vehicles that got dispatched by US forces during the
final days of the war.  It is off limits to US military personnel as
a dive site because somebody panicked while diving that site and
killed himself with an air embolism shooting to the surface from 90
feet down.

There are a lot of rivers and lakes with tons of stuff but most was
dumped deep and the rivers are generally polluted, murky and swift.
Lake Garda in Italy has a large amount of grenades, flares, mortar
ammo etc in fairly shallow water.  There is also a German truck with
the occupants still in it that apparently went off a bridge during an
air raid.

In France a good friend of mine found an Enfield revolver with 9mm
automatic ammunition in its chambers all showed signs of having been
hit by the hammer but it just shoved the round further into the
cylinder without going off.  He found it in a river that had been
dammed to build some kind of canal or something.  It was just stuck in
the mud along with lots of other stuff including a WWI German belt
buckle (brass) and an Imperial German cigarette lighter made from a
French shell casing.  He decided he had found enough souvenirs when
he came across a couple of boys throwing rocks at a potatomasher
grenade that was stuck in the mud to see if it would go off.


Well, I guess that's about enough of "Hazards with Huber" for this
episode. :-)

Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 08:55:56 -0600
From:    muckb1@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: Re: Polesti raids misinformation

On Tue, 8 Mar 1994, Alan Wild wrote:
>
> That sounds very interesting. He could probably tell of stupified people
> looking up at the underbelly of his squadron thundering just overhead.
> Ask him if they waved to each other.

        He has spoken of the people looking up at the low flying planes.  He
        said that you could see their faces quite clearly and I am sure
        the opposite was true for the people on the ground.  He says that he
        felt sorry for the people, because it had to be terrifying to see such
        a force flying directly over their farms and houses.
>
> I'm also trying to recall,... it seems to me they changed their tactics a
> couple more times, like your grandfather says, attaining altitude for the
> target, and (again, if I recall correctly) using delayed fuses and dropping
> them literally right through the rooves. I believe they might've had to
> learn to delay the fuses the hard way. Your grandfather could confirm or
> refute that one. -Al
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

C.K. Bryant
muckb1@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu
**************************************************
"The Riskier the road, the greater the profit."
        The 62nd Rule of Acquisition
**************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 16:13:57 GMT
From:    Dmitri Brasoun <brasun@MFMJESSY.UNIV-MRS.FR>
Subject: war in Russia

Hi Bill!
Thanks for support.
If you collector, Russia is the place in which
you need.
        Russians usually say: if thougth one soldier is not
buried, the war is not finished yet. By this reason the war is
continuing in Russia. Every year new and new battle fields are opened. It was true total war. The struggle happened even in
the wild places where any people was absent both before and after
the war. It concerns, in general, the nothern regions between
Moscow and Peterburg (Leningrad) - Kostroma, Rzhev, Vologda ones.
There are a lot of swamps here. Germans tried to go round Moscow
at autumn of 1941 (October, November) in this direction.
        The last case of the find of this kind was marked two
years ago. It happened occasionally - the pilot of plane noted
the strange colour of the some territory. The expedition was
organized to investigate it. It turns out that all field in the center of swampt was covered by the russian and german soldiers.
(the strange colour is explained correspondingly by colours of
great-coats).I don't remember exact place, but I remember the
many photos. It's a view not for people with weak nerves. You
can imagine the gray nothern sky, swampt and several thousand
of soldiers who is mixed between them. They laid 50 years with
full armament. Of course, all these people were buried in the
Brother Grave.
        By this reason there are lot of war things. But usually
it's possible to  buy it in Moscow, may be Peterburg.(I am from
Perm, by the way. It's 2000km  from Moscow, at the border between
Europe and Asia.)

Regards,
                                        Dmitry.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 10:47:59 -0500
From:    "Sidney W. Kitchel" <kitchel@OCTOPUS.DPSI.COM>
Subject: GEN: AMERICAN concentration camps?  Wrong!!

Lou Coatney writes:
_____________________________________________________________________

Is this Sid Kolko on our net?

While a literal definition of "concentration camp" denotes
  a concentrating-point/detention-camp, which the detention camps
  for Japanese-Americans certainly were, the overall connotation
  is now EXTERMINATION CAMPS -- which ours obviously were not.

Let's maintain some vestige of intellectual integrity in this
  discussion, shall we?
_____________________________________________________________________

        I'm afraid I don't know Sid Kolko from Adam's off ox. We are
historically minded folk here. Concentration camps are a fact of the
first half of the 20th Century. They were certainly not restricted to
German territory. The French had them ca. 1940 and were tossing aliens
into them. I think we should be honest about them in the U.S.
        I completely agree that we should differentiate between the
general occurrences of concentration camps and the death camps. But I
choose not to put my head in the sand with euphemisms -- a spade is a
spade.
                                                        --Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel           kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 10:57:25 -0500
From:    "Sidney W. Kitchel" <kitchel@OCTOPUS.DPSI.COM>
Subject: GEN:  PC on my PC and Welcome

        I'd like to say my "hello" and "welcome" to Dmitri Brasoun. I
hope you can stay with us and contribute about the Great Patriotic
War.
        In the matter of the use of "Nazi", Dmitri has either
brilliantly or accidentally offered an alternative. He writes:
__________________________________________________________________

        So, my grandfather (and I agree with him) was sure that
the turning-point in Russian company happened when people
understood: it was not war between Communists and Nuzi, but
between Russians and Germans. It's very strong opinion of old
generation.
__________________________________________________________________

        Maybe we should go with Dmitri's grandfather and call the
fascist Germans of WWII "Nuzis". It seems pretty appropriate.

                                                        --Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel           kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 10:20:49 -0600
From:    mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: Calling a club a spade?

Sid,

     When referring to the American internment (or detention)
camps for Japanese-Americans, please call them so.

     Calling them "concentration camps" -- with the exterminatory
connotations that carries, is inaccurate (if not rather dishonest).


Steve,

     It is my understanding that large numbers of Boer women and
children died in the British concentration camps in South Africa,
during the Boer War.  If that is true, they cannot be likened to
the American internment/detention camps for Nisei.

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 08:41:37 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Peenemunde, V2 etc

"... a kid down the street has one in his car..."
o o
 u
 U
Thanks for a touch of humour 'midst the stern stuff, this morning.
Regards.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 10:44:06 CST
From:    Benjamin H Schapiro <schapiro@NOTIS.COM>
Subject: Quest: Info on VB-16, VB-23, VS-16 or VS-23

Reply to: wwii-l@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu
X-Mailer: VersaTerm Link v1.1.4

To resolve a long standing family mystery I am seeking information on
squadrons VB-16, VS-16 and VB-23. Based on my uncle's flight log it seems
VB-16 became VS-16 and then became VB-23. This surmise is based on the
signatures of the C.O.s signing off on his monthly flight records. I am
fairly positive that VB-23 was assigned to the Lexington (CVA 16) but why it
was not designated VB-16 to coincide with the carrier's number is just one
of the questions to be resolved.

  Some of the officers associated with VB-23:
Lt. R.E.Riera, Commanding
Lt(jg)  J.W. Milam jr. USNR, executive officer?
Lt(jg) Cook Cleland USNR, Flight leader and reportedly pilot for the first
Lexington airman to shoot down a japanese aircraft
Ens. A.C. Hall USNR
Ens. Parks USNR

  Before joining the Lexington for her shakedown cruise the squadron was
stationed at Quonset Point R.I. and the this training period (Dec. 1942 -
May 1943) is of particular interest.

    I have found references to the squardon in Edward Stiechen's photo book
"Blue Ghost", including the comment about Lt. Cleland.

  Any information or suggestions of additional sources is greatly
appreciated. Unit histories or the Lexington Airgroup history references are
my immediate objectives. I have only just started on this and have not had a
chance to check the obvious sources, ie Morrison et al.. Any leads as to the
appropriate departments of the U.S. Navy are also welcome.

    I'll be glad to repost to this group any thing unusual or interesting
that this search uncovers.

Ben Schapiro,
NOTIS Systems, Inc.                     schapiro@notis.com
708-866-0187

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 08:53:26 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Rohm shot

On the thread of Nazis with some Jewish antecedents...
        There were strong indications of this in Reinhardt heydrich's
background.
        You seem to have studied Adolph a good deal. Can you recall
a couple of his biographies that mentioned his father, Alois Hitler,
was half-Jewish by relation to a family named Frankenberger, of
Gratz, Austria. 'Seemed quite serious, non-sensationalist references,
but I cannot recall the titles, offhand.  You?

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 11:51:20 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: Re: German vs Soviet Military Quality

In reply to the mail from <STU_JCOWENS%JMUVAX.bitnet@vm42.cso.uiuc.edu>...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>Date:         Tue, 8 Mar 1994 02:00:56 -0500
>Reply-To: Military History <MILHST-L%UKANVM.bitnet@vm42.cso.uiuc.edu>
>Sender: Military History <MILHST-L%UKANVM.bitnet@vm42.cso.uiuc.edu>
>From: James Owens <STU_JCOWENS%JMUVAX.bitnet@vm42.cso.uiuc.edu>
>Subject:      Re: German vs Soviet Military Quality
>To: Multiple recipients of list MILHST-L <MILHST-L%UKANVM.bitnet@vm42.cso.uiuc.edu>
>
>As further proof that my assertion about overextension was a valid point, the
>cable station A&E's "locomotive" had an episode about the train problems of the
>Germans in RUssia.  BAsically, to all those who missed it, the GErmans had to
>convert Russian raillines to the narrow German gauge, a slow process.  Also,
>since the Germans never rerailed much of the eastern front, the German supply
>trains came to a certain point, where all cargo was reloaded onto captured
>Russian trains--usually by hand.  This meant that the German penetration into
>the motherland merely destroyed their own supply network (or at least crippled
>it) while affecting the commies little.  THus, the Germans should have avoided t
>   heir deep penetrations in lieu of destroying the Soviet army nearer Europe---
>the supply drain weakened the Wehrmacht (sp?), allowing the Soviets to defeat
>the Germans when their army had thus weakened sufficiently.  The Moral: never
>leave your supply head a thousand miles behind without being able to move the
>supplies to the front easily and quickly.
>James Owens
>
James,

I am involved in logistics, and therefore, logistics in World
War II has become a recent interest.  Recently investigating the
role of logistics in the Russian campaign, I agree with what you
were saying about the railroads.  Some elaboration:

The Germans wanted to regauge the Russian railroads, but they
did not have enough specialized troops to accomplish this.  They
then decided to use captured Russian rolling stock, but this led
to the bottleneck you described off off-loading and on-loading,
again with not enough specialized troops.  The next bottleneck
occurred when the end of the line was reached.  The materiel had
to be off-loaded and moved forward to the troops.  The German
army was notoriously short of trucks to move supplies.

Another problem was that the German army was really two separate
and distinct animals.  First, the Panzers rolled out and moved
very quickly away from the ordinary infantry divisions.  Then,
the supply troops had to go through the infantry and try to
catch up to the Panzers, which were racing ahead.  A further
problem was that the supply troops were not under the control of
the army group commanders, so priorities of supply were not
being set by the commanders needing resupply.

With no specialized supply vehicles, i.e. trucks, anything and
everything was utilized, including horse-drawn and even
man-drawn wagons.  Not the most organized logistic situation!!

The real tribute is that the German army got as far as it did in
Russia!!

Jim Irwin

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-8760
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-8760

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 11:54:11 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: Re: German vs Soviet Military Quality

In reply to the mail from <STU_JCOWENS%JMUVAX.bitnet@vm42.cso.uiuc.edu>...

Sorry, all!!

Sent my reply to this message to the wrong list.  I can't even
keep two lists straight.  Losing my mind, and I really miss it.

Jim
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-8760
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-8760

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 09:17:23 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Eisenhower and German POWs

How odd, that professional historian should consider Bacque's verbiage
at all serious.
He is, I'm ashamed to say, a Canadian. After the compulsively anti-
American liberal set here had stopped clucking in glee over his "expose",
more level-headed people took a look, laughed, shrugged, and filed
it under "Oliver Stone genre".
        American historians should be able to track down the very
thorough refutation of Bacque's slander which was published after
a thorough examination of his nonsensical claims.
        Precise references elude me for the moment. However, anyone
actually iterested in studying the refutation should have no difficulty
tracking it down. The Eisenhower Foundation would be a good place to
start.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 12:22:56 -0500
From:    Ronald A Wilson <wilson@BATTELLE.ORG>
Subject: Bataan

Text item: Text_1

   I have a friend who survived the Bataan death march and a year
   in Japan as slave labor.  He is very spry at 76 and remembers
   the experience in great detail.  He was a P-40 crew chief who,
   when all their planes were lost, was converted to an infantry
   "shock" troop.  This means his entire AAF group were put into
   the front line to face the Japanese advance down the Bataan
   peninsula  His descriptions of the march, the POW camp, the
   7-week crossing to Japan (normally 7 days), and work in a
   steel mill are at once inspiring and horrible.  As a 27-year
   AF vet including 2 years in SEA as a medic and 3 months of
   Desert Storm, I find it hard to believe that any human could
   live through years of a concentration camp in Europe or POW
   camp such as those the Japanese had in Asia.  It speaks well
   for the will to live.  The books on the Death March are full
   of tactics and the politics of the event, my friend has
   supplied many details.

   This is my first posting to an outstanding list.  The manager
   is to be commended for his tact, restraint, and above all --
   his high principles that prevent the list from becoming a
   shouting forum.  Kudos.....................

   Ron Wilson, CMSgt, USAFR, Seattle
   <Wilson@Battelle.org>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 11:28:54 -0600
From:    mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: Re: Bataan -- Ron Wilson's friend

Your friend should write a book (too), Ron.

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 12:37:34 EST
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Calling a club a spade?

On Tue, 8 Mar 1994 10:20:49 -0600 <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU> said:
>     When referring to the American internment (or detention)
>camps for Japanese-Americans, please call them so.
>
>     Calling them "concentration camps" -- with the exterminatory
>connotations that carries, is inaccurate (if not rather dishonest).

Calling them anything else elides an extremely unpleasant moment in
American history and is equally dishonest, IMHO.

>     It is my understanding that large numbers of Boer women and
>children died in the British concentration camps in South Africa,
>during the Boer War.  If that is true, they cannot be likened to
>the American internment/detention camps for Nisei.

Death rates for the Nisei were elevated:  they didn't get proper food,
proper shelter, or proper medical care, and occasionally they were just
shot to death.  You would have preferred combat to living in one, as
did 10,000 or so who served in Europe in the Nisei units.  They were
better than Auschwitz, but that isn't saying much.

ken koester
maint2@ers.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 13:06:55 EST
From:    Bill Vasilion <wvasilion@VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject: Hitler ancestry........

       I have read the same thing but can remember the books or
         author. That was one reason given for HItler's orgins
       of his final solution.....

           Does anyone know if a certain period of HItler's life
      is still unaccountable ???? I beleive it is his teen years
       from when he was 16 or 17 till 22 or 23???? Supposedly
        what I remember is that no one knows what he really did
      or where he was......

           Also does anyone remember the controversy with
        Hitler's number two man..Martin borman....?? He supposedly
        escaped from Berlin the night HItler took his own life.
       ??? anyone want to shed more light on this..

           One last thought....In Albert Speers biography
        "inside the third reich"  Albert brought up one interesting
          point that when he was named armanents minister, he found
         the German army had so many different caliber guns
        that if they had just stuck to certain ones and had
        mass produced those, they would have done better in the
         war???????

            one last wild thought...........In books I found that
        pictures of churchill at times look totally different.
 were these pictures of a double???? or I am just
      reading too much into this.????

                       bill

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 11:56:14 +0100
From:    Gustin Dominiek <TE920051@BETA.UFSIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: ardennes

    Mr. dlally wrote for information about two possible routes in
the ardennes towards Luxembourg.

    I have been there a couple of times and there are some advises I
can give him to his benefit.

    The main roads mostly have cycle-paths that mostly allow you to
travel if not quickly, enjoyably. Smaller roads do not have this
luxury and the use of a back mirror doesn't seem to be such a bad
idea at all.

    Youth hostels are widelyt available, but should be booked in
time, let's say 48h before arrival to be sure. However certainly in
Germany bed and breakfast is available in most places.

    Due to geographic circumstances the terrain you will cross is
hilly, though the roads are well-kept. Luxembourg drivers are fast,
but tend to keep to the right side of the road, which can be a
nuisance. Towards the Mozel you'd be able to do more miles a day,
following it to the Rhein.

    The trip to Luxembourg city is not at all advisable for bikers.
Traffic elswhere in Luxembourg can be hectic, there it is chaos. The
city is not much more than a collection of large buildings, smell of
cars and Diesel engines, And so on.

    Further, for more specific information I could give you, please
write to TE920051 @ beta.UFSIA.ac.be, as I'm not a user of the list.

    Greetings,

                    Dominiek G.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 10:18:02 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Peenemunde, V2 etc

Yes, as you say, there was no need for a Dora, to shell England.
The German battery of conventional long-range artillery at Cap Gris Nez
was more than adequate o lob shells across the 21 miles of the English
Channel.
They were 14 inch guns, placed there to bombard the town of Dover --
which was under fire for 49 months. The guns fired a mix of armor-
piercing, high-explosive contact shells, and shrapnel.
A large part of the civilian population of Dover was evacuated at times,
during particularly severe bombardments. The people had the stubborn
habit of coming straight back to their homes right after the next lull.
        British counter-batteries of 11-inch and 14-inch guns sere set
up, manned by the Royal Marine Artilley.
It was the longest artillery duel of World War Two; four years, one month.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 12:19:19 -0600
From:    mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: Nisei "shot to death"?  Please elaborate, Ken K.

Your chance, Ken.

Lou

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 13:42:57 EST
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ploesti raids misinformation

>On Tue, 8 Mar 1994, Alan Wild wrote:
>>
>> That sounds very interesting. He could probably tell of stupified people
>> looking up at the underbelly of his squadron thundering just overhead.
>> Ask him if they waved to each other.
>
>        He has spoken of the people looking up at the low flying planes.  He
>        said that you could see their faces quite clearly and I am sure
>        the opposite was true for the people on the ground.  He says that he
>        felt sorry for the people, because it had to be terrifying to see such
>        a force flying directly over their farms and houses.
>
>C.K. Bryant

'Quite a sight. It brings to mind a quote from Patton on the road to Palermo.
He says, "Look at that, Codman", surveying his tank columns in the hills,
"Compared to warfare, all other forms of human endeavor shrink to insigni-
 ficance."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Wild, LAN Mgr.  Father of 1.5             Voice:          (401) 792-2611
ACC - Lippitt - URI  American Legion Post 102. FAX:            (401) 792-5479
Kingston, RI  02881                            Bitnet:           AWild@URIACC
                                               Internet: AWild@URIACC.URI.EDU

Murphy's Uncertainty Principle:    You can know something has gone wrong only
                                    when you make an odd number of mistakes.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 13:54:25 EST
From:    Martha Wheless <lingua@CCPO.ODU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hitler ancestry........

Well here goes my first post to the list.  I checked my three
major biographies of Hitler--Bullock, Toland and Fest.  Toland
goes into the most detail about Hitler's childhood and does
a fairly good job.

All three mention the possibility of Hitler's grandfather being
Frankenberger.  Bullock and Toland quickly dismiss the idea as
a "slight possibility" (Toland).

Fest says that this version of Hitler's ancestry came from
Hans Frank, Hitler's lawyer and later Governor General of Poland.
Frank had been assigned to look into the possibility when
Hitler received a letter from one of his nephews (a son
of his half-brother Alois).  Frank found no proof that
Frankenberger had, or had not, been Hitler's grandfather.
He felt that the lack of evidence made the possibility
seem unlikly.   The Gestapo investigated further in 1942 and
found nothing.  Fest concludes that Hitler did not know
who his grandfather was.  For Fest the importance of this
is that the issue caused Hitler to doubt his own descent.
Whether this contributed to the Final Solution is another
matter.

Forgive any typos--I haven't figured out how to edit this.

Martha L. Wheless
lingua@ccpo.odu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 13:08:11 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hitler ancestry........

> Received: from MAILQUEUE by PCAD (Mercury 1.11); Tue, 8 Mar 94 12:26:42 GMT-6
> Return-path: <@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU:owner-wwii-l@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>



Hello, Bill!

I will try to answer your questions as best I can.

>        I have read the same thing but can remember the books or
>          author. That was one reason given for HItler's orgins
>        of his final solution.....

    Not quite certain what you mean here.

>            Does anyone know if a certain period of HItler's life
>       is still unaccountable ???? I beleive it is his teen years
>        from when he was 16 or 17 till 22 or 23???? Supposedly
>         what I remember is that no one knows what he really did
>       or where he was......

    Yes, there has always been doubt as to his activities between the
years 1909-1914 in Vienna. I think these years are accurate. Hitler
himself avoided any discussion of those years, presumably as they
represented the zenith of his life.

>            Also does anyone remember the controversy with
>         Hitler's number two man..Martin borman....?? He supposedly
>         escaped from Berlin the night HItler took his own life.
>        ??? anyone want to shed more light on this..

    Bormann did not escape the hell of Berlin. He was killed while
trying to flee a location not far from the Bunker, I want to say
near the Anhalter train station. He had fled the bunker, I believe
in the company of two other people, the names of whom escape me for
the time being. His skull was found in 1973 (?) while workers were
doing some excavation in Berlin to expand the subway system there.

 >            One last thought....In Albert Speers biography
>         "inside the third reich"  Albert brought up one interesting
>           point that when he was named armanents minister, he found
>          the German army had so many different caliber guns
>         that if they had just stuck to certain ones and had
>         mass produced those, they would have done better in the
>          war???????

    Not really. Probably what is referred to here was the large
amount of captured weapons used by the Germans at that stage of the
war, particularly those on the fighting fronts. It was common practice
for the combatants to use their adversary's weapons because they were
handy and supply from the home front was tenuous.

 >             one last wild thought...........In books I found
that >         pictures of churchill at times look totally different.
>  were these pictures of a double???? or I am just
>       reading too much into this.????

    Possibly. He was known to have a double, but you may be reading
too much into Churchill's different appearance. I don't recall
Mr. Churchill ever using a double to portray himself in any event
that necessitated his participation. You would have to take into
consideration the time they were shot and the circumstances in which
the photos were taken.


Hope this helps.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 14:32:58 EST
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: HOME: Nisei "shot to death"?  Please elaborate, Ken K.

On Tue, 8 Mar 1994 12:19:19 -0600 <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU> said:
>Your chance, Ken.

Well, my silly county library isn't going to be much help here, I'm afraid,
but there is bound to be excellent primary and secondary source material
for the camps at this late date which some kind soul at a university can
probably easily locate.  If memory serves, the Smithsonian exhibit on the
camps of a year or two ago described a particular shooting & perhaps we
have one or two Smithsonian staffers on the list who could comment.
Shooting was not an every day occurence, but it did happen.

Let's face it:  this was a thoroughly reprehensible episode, unjustified
in any way by the facts, as shown by neither state nor private individual
returning the seized property of these unfortunates after the war.  Which,
as far as I am concerned, points to one of the key reasons for the
incarceration, that and simple race hatred.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 14:46:48 EST
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Bombing of Dresden /v1, v2

On Mon, 7 Mar 1994 16:03:39 EST Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor, Marist Co
>> Anyone know offhand the CEP for a V2?  5 miles?  10?  Pretty bad, in any
>> case.  It's interesting to me that the V2 bombardment came much closer to
>> cracking civilian morale than the Blitz did, even though the actual effect
>> was much less.
>Please translate "CEP". Thank you
>
"CEP" = Circular Error Probable.  It's an imaginary circle within which one
expects 50% of the ordnance to be delivered, centered on the target.  Obviously
the larger the circle, the more inaccurate the weapon.  As a comparison, the
latest ICBMs have a CEP of about 100 meters. . . although, never having
launched one over the polar regions, one wonders at the confidence level in
that measurement (-:

ken koester
maint2@ers.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 14:57:04 -0500
From:    "John E. Kollar" <KILLAR@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Peenemunde, V2 etc

The 'London Gun' also was not tested for a second reason other
than being bombed, it was discovered after several thousand shells
were made that the shells tended to tumble in flight because
they were not stable enough to endure the high muzzle velocity.
As they tumbled their range of course decreased, and Hitler, though
the project was shelved, told them to finish constructing the less
than half finished gun because it was good at attracting British bombs,
boy Hitler actually did something that worked !?  :{

I DO NOT SUPPORT Hitler-shit  DIE THOUGHT_POLICE

                                                John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 14:58:32 -0500
From:    "John E. Kollar" <KILLAR@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU>
Subject: Re: v3

The gun could not have been totally destroyed in that manner, because
J.V. Jones visited the area after the D-Day invasion and was able to
discern what it was.  Sorry, I hit reply to the previous version before
I read your reply.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 14:05:41 -0600
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: Hitler ancestry........

>        I have read the same thing but can remember the books or
>          author. That was one reason given for HItler's orgins
>        of his final solution.....

Hi bill,

If I may be permitted to throw in what I understand to be the case
with Hitler's ancestry.  It is the Grandfather that is in question,
Alois' father.  It seems Alois' mother worked as a cleaning woman for
a wealthy Jewish professional (don't recall which profession) but
there was some speculation that he was Alois' father and his mother
was an un-wed mother.

His mother's maiden name was Schicklgruber and that is the name he
had until he changed it to Hitler when he (Alois) was in his 20s.

Alois grew up and got into the Zoll (Customs) service and did well
for himself.  He married a couple of times before meeting and
marrying Klara (Adolf's mother) but he had some children before Adolf
one of which survived the war.  She lived in Austria by her Married
last name of Wolff.  I don't recall her first name but could find it
if anyone is interested.  She was taken by the Russians after the war
and returned to Austria in the 1950s.

Hitler's deep hatred of the Jews was subject to much speculation but
the best explanation I have heard was that when Klara Hitler
developed breast cancer and eventually died of it her doctor was
Jewish and was unable to save her life.  Adolf was very close to his
mother and his father had died years before leaving them a small
state pension to live on.  During his teen years Hitler lived with
his mother on this pension and dreamed of being an architect and
artist.  When she died after a protracted and painful fight with
cancer Adolf took it very hard.  He had been totally dependent on her
and now she was gone and he had no one.

In the following years he was found to be completely unsuitable for
training as an architect and his artistic goals had fallen to painting
postcards of famous buildings in Vienna and surrounding cities.  He
would not take a job as he felt that was beneath him.  He was an
artist and a very temperamental one at that.

He moved into a series of flop houses in Vienna during the 1900s just
before the First World War where he associated with the very dregs of
society and was said to be disturbingly vocal about his political
beliefs.  He was being sought after by the Austrian Army which was
trying to conscript him as he had been evading them for a couple of
years when he became of age to serve.  He fled to Bavaria in 1913 and
hid out there until he was again located by the Austrian authorities.
Paperwork was being processed to have him returned by force to
Austria when war broke out and Hitler volunteered for service in the
Bavarian Army.  He was accepted and the Austrians gave up on him.

That about covers the interval between the death of his mother and
WWI (his late teens to age 25).

>       is still unaccountable ???? I beleive it is his teen years
>        from when he was 16 or 17 till 22 or 23???? Supposedly
>         what I remember is that no one knows what he really did
>      or where he was......

He had a friend during that time that lived with him in the flop
houses who wrote a book entitled _I was Hitlers Friend_ or something
like that.  It was a love - hate type relationship with this guy and
he was something of an embarrassment to Hitler in the 1930s.  I don't
recall this guys name either.

Incidentally, during the 1930s and 1940s the SS was charged with
finding all of Hitler's postcards that he painted in his early days.
These works were collected and after the war they eventually ended up
in the hands of museums and collectors.  There was even an exhibition
of them in Florence, Italy (of all places) about two years ago.  It
went largely unnoticed but it seemed a stark contrast for a city
known for the works of daVince, Michaelangelo and Botticelli.

>            Also does anyone remember the controversy with
>         Hitler's number two man..Martin borman....?? He supposedly
>         escaped from Berlin the night HItler took his own life.
>        ??? anyone want to shed more light on this..

In the book _The Bunker_ the author (O'Donnel?) interviewed people who
claim to have seen Bormann and a diplomat who was very tall killed by
shell fire while running to the Wannsee U-bahn station.  The bodies
were not recovered but the interviewee was certain it was them.  If
it is the diplomat I am thinking of you could not mistake him.  He
was 6'9" tall and towered over Hitler and all the rest.  Every few
years they dig up a skull in Berlin while working on the streets and
claim to have fond Bormann.

The "Military Advisor" ran a series of articles that suggested that
Hitler and Bormann actually escaped with Eva Braun on a special
airplane piloted by his personal pilot Hans Baur.  He was supposedly
flown to Spain and then to South America.  If anyone is interested I
can dig them up too for more data.

There is much debate about Bormann's fate.

>            One last thought....In Albert Speers biography
>         "inside the third reich"  Albert brought up one interesting
>           point that when he was named armanents minister, he found
>          the German army had so many different caliber guns
>         that if they had just stuck to certain ones and had
>         mass produced those, they would have done better in the
>          war???????

Maybe so.

>             one last wild thought...........In books I found that
>         pictures of churchill at times look totally different.
>  were these pictures of a double???? or I am just
>       reading too much into this.????
>
>                        bill
>

Got me foxed :-)

Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 12:17:21 GMT+800
From:    "Joseph R. BOEKE" <JRBOEKE@UCI.EDU>
Subject: INF: Strategic Bombing of Germany

I am trying to find information on the strategic bombing campaign conducted
by the RAF and USAAF.  So far the day by day accounts of USAAF operations
have been useful, but I'd also like to find a couple of good general
overviews of the campaign and well as micro-detailed information like the
orders of battle and TO&Es for the RAF, USAAF and Luftwaffe squadrons that
took part in the campaign.

That said, I can find many books on the topic (especially when it comes to
the broad sweep of the campaign), but what I am looking for is some advice on
what I should definately read, what I might want to look at, and what I
should avoid like the plague.

I am just begining this research project, so any leads to information sources
would be very much appreciated.

Thanks,

- Joe
  jrboeke@uci.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 09:45:56 EST
From:    Ralph Marshall <rjm%macgreg@UUNET.UU.NET>
Subject: Middle-east WWII battle fields

   Does anyone know if to what extant the N. African battle fields were
   cleaned-up.   Would there still be wounded tanks (which I would
   imagine would be in good shape as things do not deteriorate as much
   in the arid climes).

   Aldo M. Hubert                     Aldo_Hubert@uncg.edu

I can't speak to your specific question, but I know that the Turkish
trains blown up by Lawrence of Arabia are still sitting on the east
coast of Saudi Arabia - I have a picture of my sister standing next to
a rusted but mostly intact tank engine.  However, this is in a very
humid (and salty, due to the gulf) environment - I wouldn't assume
that all of N. Africa is arid.

Ralph Marshall
Investment Systems Developer, The MacGregor Group
rjm@macgreg.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 15:21:56 EST
From:    Bill Vasilion <wvasilion@VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject: final solution

         Thanks terry........what I meant by the 'final solution'
        is HIlters dislike of the jewish people and how this may during
        this period may have sent him over the edge. I have seen
        references to this...
           that piece on borman was interesting..when did they find
       the skull???? I remember reading about a book about search for
       borman  in some south american country.........

          bill

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 15:06:38 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: final solution

Hello, Bill!

Thanks for your response.

>          Thanks terry........what I meant by the 'final solution'
>         is HIlters dislike of the jewish people and how this may during
>         this period may have sent him over the edge. I have seen
>         references to this...

     I think Hitler used the Jews as a focus to divert attention from
economic problems or other domestic woes which is a common feature of
totalitarian regimes. Hitler was a very shrewd politician and I think
it must not be forgotten that it was Hitler who was the master
propagandist in the Third Reich. What are your sources that refer to
his being pushed over the edge? I am just curious.



>            that piece on borman was interesting..when did they find
>        the skull???? I remember reading about a book about search for
>        borman  in some south american country.........

    I will have to check to make absolutely certain, but I think it
was in 1973. I have seen pix of it and a comparison of the skull with
a pic of Bormann. There is great similarity.

    You are probably thinking of Ladislas Farago's book "The Fourth
Reich" in which he maintained that Bormann was alive and well living
in South America. Came out in 1974, as best I can remember. I have
the book.

    There may have been others with the same tack that Borman was
living in South America, probably Argentina, but Farago's thesis is
pure garbage.

    Thanks again for the note, and please stay in touch.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 15:11:55 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: HOME: Nisei "shot to death"?  Please elaborate, Ken K.

Hello, Ken!'

> Well, my silly county library isn't going to be much help here, I'm afraid,
> but there is bound to be excellent primary and secondary source material
> for the camps at this late date which some kind soul at a university can
> probably easily locate.  If memory serves, the Smithsonian exhibit on the
> camps of a year or two ago described a particular shooting & perhaps we
> have one or two Smithsonian staffers on the list who could comment.
> Shooting was not an every day occurence, but it did happen.
>
> Let's face it:  this was a thoroughly reprehensible episode, unjustified
> in any way by the facts, as shown by neither state nor private individual
> returning the seized property of these unfortunates after the war.  Which,
> as far as I am concerned, points to one of the key reasons for the
> incarceration, that and simple race hatred.

    Just wanted to say that your last statement is absolutely
correct. Our version of concentration camps to house the Japanese was
a clear case of a violation of due process and a complete
circumvention of the constitution. A terribly regrettable episode.

    Thanks for your comment.


    Terry






Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 13:26:12 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@CCLINK.LOGICON.COM>
Subject: Re: Bombing of Dresden /v1, v2

>As a comparison, the latest ICBMs have a CEP of about 100 meters. . .
>although, never having launched one over the polar regions, one wonders at the
>confidence level in that measurement (-:

Approaching that imaginary "off topic" line, in the days of strictly
magnetic navigation this would obviously be a problem.  These days, with
stellar AND the satellite based Global Positioning System, I don't think
the polar regions are a problem.

Theron P. Keller
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 15:28:10 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Amarillo WWII Comemmorative Activities

> Hello, All!
>
> I was asked by the chairman of a community-wide committee here, which
> is devoted to initiating activities to comemmorate the 50th
> anniversary year of the end of WWII. This committee is interested in
> finding out if there are other locations involved in similar
> situations. If so, could any or all of you who are in the know here
> post to me the kinds of activities that will be held or scheduled
> within the very near future? I would greatly appreciate that. Any
> suggestions for such comemmorative activities either projected or
> actively pursured would be most helpful and greatly appreciated.
>
> Thank you very much.
>
> Terry
>
> Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
> P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
> fax 806-371-5370
>

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 17:03:16 -0500
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: Re: HOME: Nisei "shot to death"?  Please elaborate, Ken K.

In reply to the mail from <MAINT2%ERS.BITNET@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>...
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>Date:         Tue, 8 Mar 1994 14:32:58 EST
>Reply-To: World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
>Sender: World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
>From: Ken Koester <MAINT2%ERS.BITNET@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
>Subject:      HOME: Nisei "shot to death"?  Please elaborate, Ken K.
>To: Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
>In-Reply-To:  Message of Tue,
>              8 Mar 1994 12:19:19 -0600 from <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU. EDU>
>
>On Tue, 8 Mar 1994 12:19:19 -0600 <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU> said:
>>Your chance, Ken.
>
>Well, my silly county library isn't going to be much help here, I'm afraid,
>but there is bound to be excellent primary and secondary source material
>for the camps at this late date which some kind soul at a university can
>probably easily locate.  If memory serves, the Smithsonian exhibit on the
>camps of a year or two ago described a particular shooting & perhaps we
>have one or two Smithsonian staffers on the list who could comment.
>Shooting was not an every day occurence, but it did happen.
>
>Let's face it:  this was a thoroughly reprehensible episode, unjustified
>in any way by the facts, as shown by neither state nor private individual
>returning the seized property of these unfortunates after the war.  Which,
>as far as I am concerned, points to one of the key reasons for the
>incarceration, that and simple race hatred.
>
Ken,

By way of adding to your update, on April 13, at Camden County
Community College in Blackwood NJ, Grace Uyehara is to speak
about the camps.  She is a former internee.  I will be glad to
update the list after her talk.  Look for something on April 14.

As an aside to your post, the only Nisei who were imprisoned
came from the West Coast, mainly California.  But, there were
9000+ Japanese, Japanese-Americans in Hawaii.  They weren't
interned.  Interesting, no??

Jim


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-8760
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-8760

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 21:25:42 +0000
From:    WH GREENSLADE <W.H.Greenslade@BRADFORD.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: TAC: Italian AT units

I have been doing some reading up on the Italian AT/AA units and the two
battalions you list are incorrect. Indeed there where two Heavy AA/AT Bns,
but the unit numbering is incorrect Ariete 132nd Armoured Division had
31st Hvy AT/AA Bn (88L56 and 90L53) also the Brescia 27th Infantry had the
55th Artillery Regt which had a Bn of 88L56 in it. Littorio 133rd Armoured
Division had the 3rd Mobile Artillery Regt (100L17, 75L27 and 88L56). As
to the 18th AT Bn there was no such unit, and the 29th was a Company no a
Bn and it was the AT Co of the 29th Infantry division "Piedemonte". AS to
weither they could have been AA units it is possible because the 18th AA
is listed as a battery in the 1st AA Regt. And the 29th was a mobile Bn in
the 3rd AA Regt. Reference Italian Order of Battle 1940-44. W.Victor Madej
(ed) Valor Pub 1990.

 W.Greenslade

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 14:38:52 -0800
From:    Jim Benn <jrb@AGAVIION.AGFX.COM>
Subject: Re: GAME: Simulations

I've been calling Avalon Hill every month for the past six months about
the DOS version on THIRD REICH; it was supposed to be out several months
ago; now they're saying April 94.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 15:24:54 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: INF: Strategic Bombing of Germany

Couple of good ones from the RAF/RCAF perspective:
                REAP THE WHIRLWIND, by Spencer Dunmore
                RIGHT OF THE LINE, by John Terraine

Excellent overview of USAAF/ RAF efforts:
                THE ALLIED BOMBER WAR, 1939-45, by Maurice Harvey.

Well-balanced study of Sir Arthur Harris:
                'BOMBER' HARRIS, by Dudley Saward
who also wrote a definitive study of the use of radar in bombers:
                THE BOMBER'S EYE, by Group Captain Dudley Saward

You could also check, THE U.S. BOMBING SURVEY
and... THE TURN OF TIDE, by Arthur Bryant.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 18:23:48 EST
From:    Robert E George <regeorge@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Subject: BIOG: Missing Years in Hitler's Life??

>            Does anyone know if a certain period of HItler's life
>       is still unaccountable ???? I beleive it is his teen years
>        from when he was 16 or 17 till 22 or 23???? Supposedly
>         what I remember is that no one knows what he really did
>       or where he was......


     I have read Toland and Shirer (sorry, neither is committed to
memory :-) ) and have often felt that the immediate post-WWI period
of Hitler's life is dealt with in extremely sketchy terms. This time
is of considerable historical significance, since it marks Hitler's
entry into the profession of politics (as some sort of 'political
education officer' in the Reichsheer) .

     Robert George

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 18:27:10 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: ADMIN: Demise of Listowner...

I've received an ultimatum from my doctors. I have to give up tending the
list, or give up school. After a "mad moment" I made the sensible decision.

We now have two options, find someone to take over the list, or close it
down. Anyone who want to take over the list-tending duties should send me
private e-mail. Prospective tenders should have a robust mailbox and the
patience of Job. Knowledge of Unix is not critical, but you should have
a fair amount of experience with the Bitnet/Internet to puzzle out some
of the more bizarre messages.  I will be available as a "consultant" until
you've gotten the system down.

Larry J


JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Listowner: WWII-L; Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Mar 1994 09:36:01 AEST
From:    ccwilber@UQVAX.CC.UQ.OZ.AU
Subject: WEAP: Peenemunde, V2 etc

Terry,

>   Focke-Wulf Projects
>
>Rotary Wing Ramjet Fighter

This sounds interesting! Do you have some more description about this
project?

Thanks,
Wilber.

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Wilber WILLIAMS                            w.williams@cc.uq.edu.au      |
|Prentice Centre                            Telephone : +61 7 365 4232   |
|The University of Queensland               Facsimile : +61 7 365 4477   |
|Brisbane Qld 4072  AUSTRALIA                                            |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 15:42:12 -0600
From:    mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: Re: HOME: Nisei "shot to death"?  Please elaborate, Ken K.

Ken,

     When you refer to the Nisei detention centers as "conentra-
tion camps" and then say Nisei were shot to death there, it leaves
the impression of mass, Katyn-like killings.  Instead, the truth of
it seems to be that a few inmates were shot and killed.

     Why?  Were they trying to escape?  attack others?  Please
specify.

     Your suggestion that about 10,000 Japanese-Americans joined
the Army to escape the camps is also offensive, if their purpose was
to serve their/our? Country to prove their loyalty to their
frightened countrymen/-women (and help beat the Axis).  Japanese-
Americans are fiercely (and rightly) proud of the exploits of the
442nd "Go For Broke!" Infantry Regiment.  I wouldn't suggest to a
442nd vet (or one of his descendants) that he joined up to
escape the hardships of the camps and desert his loved ones, if I
were you.  (!)

     While it is true that German-Americans and Italian-Americans
weren't tossed into internment camps, Pearl Harbor was a JAPANESE
attack, and the Rape of Nanking and other Japanese atrocities had
been known/realized well before the war.

     The anti-Japanese fear/hysteria is entirely understandable.
It is unfortunate that loyal Americans were victimized in the
reaction, but now we all know the injustice/tragedy of it and
maybe can avoid repetitions.

     However, exaggerating what did happen by referring to the
camps as "concentration camps" or by denigrating the patriotism
of the Japanese-Americans who flocked to the Colors, does not
help the truthful learning of that unhappy lesson.

     You aren't a history teacher, are you?

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 19:13:06 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: ADMIN: Intro to WWII-L (no new items)

Revision: 1 November 93
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Welcome to WWII-L, a list dedicated to the discussion of the
greatest cataclysm of the Twentieth century (and, hopefully,
the last.)

I'm Larry W. Jewell and I'll be listowner until further
notice.  I can be reached at the addresses listed at the end
of this notice.

WWII-L will be self-moderated.  This means that each of you
will always try to remember that there is a human being on the
other end of the net, and the "Golden Rule" is rule number
one!

Our subject is HUGE and not everyone will be interested in
everything that moves over the mails.  To ease YOUR burden of
sorting the items you wish to read I offer the following
"flags".  They will go FIRST on the Subject: line.
(This section will be enforced when traffic get heavy, otherwise
members may use their discretion on the matter.)

EDU (For discussion of aspects of teaching about the war.)
SCI (for discussion of science and technology, may overlap
     with WEAP)
WEAP ( for talk of weapons, useage of weapons, and "My favorite
       weapon.")
POL (Political discussions, such as the effects of the Yalta
     Conference)
TAC (Tactical and Strategic discussions, "Island hopping vs.
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REF (References, review, where-to-buy, etc.)
INF (Tables of Organization, raw data, chronologies, etc.)
DOC (Reproductions of documents, Declarations of War,
     Speeches, Treaties, etc.)
GEN ("Let's find a category for this.")
TRV (For you trivia buffs. Try to stump everyone.)
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HOME (For discussions of events on the "Homefront".  To help distinguish
      WHICH homefront we're talking about, use the following format:
      HOME:US for the U.S.A.,
      HOME:GER for Germany, and so forth.)
NOST (For Nostalgia items, such as trips to battle sites, historical
      recreations, museum information, where to buy badges and hats, etc.)
ADMIN (For listowner use, to post introduction and related material.
       Responses to article are welcome, but only listowner should originate
       an "ADMIN" article.)
WANT (For trading, suggestion on stores worth visting, etc.  Please offer to
      send more information via e-mail rather than posting an entire inventory.)
MEDIA (To review and report tv and other media "events".)
NEWS (For reproductions of newspaper, magazine, and other articles from the
      period under discussion.  Present day news items should be post under
      "MEDIA".
ARC  (For discussion of on-line resources and materials, such as those avail-
      able via ftp or gopher.  Discussion of the WWII-OLA (On-Line Archives)
      should be posted under this flag.))
TROUBLE (Error messages from a site or address. Last chance to contact me
      before I'm forced to delete you! Anyone who knows the member in question
      is urged to contact them and have the problem corrected.)

Some items will overlap, of course, but the main thrust of the item
should be clear.  Try not to ask so many questions in a single post
that the flags become inoperative.  Several short posts are preferable
to one long one, and are easier to answer and quote.  You should change
the flag in the subject line if the thread takes a new direction.  If
you reply to a posting which didn't have a flag, please insert the proper
flag.  (This can help categorize the subject for people who have to down-
load the mail via slow modem, one of the main reasons for having the flags
at all.)

You'll be hearing from me if you "forget" this system.  I also
solicit additions to this list.  Please keep this table handy
until you're comfortable with the flags.

Abbreviations are another subject that needs attention.  While many of us
will be comfortable with the most arcane and obscure acronyms and abbreviations
many of the readers of this list are here to learn more about the war and
will have trouble decyphering your articles if they are packed with "LAH",
"CinCUS", "StuG III", etc.  PLEASE expand these terms at least once in your
post.  Similarly, since this list is primarily in English, could we please
translate the "foreign" terms?  A long discussion on "Kido Butai" or "Wacht-
am-Rhine" without an explantion of the terms isn't polite if we exclude part
of the list because they have no clue as to the meaning of the terms.


Now we come to the REALLY hard part.

Some subjects have been beaten to death, and I KNOW that they'll
come up almost as soon as the group gets started.  To save us
all time, I'll ask that the following subjects be covered by
private mail (in other words, talk to someone who CARES.)  I'm
not judging the validity of anyone's arguments one way or the
other in these subject, just that I have yet to see one person
change their mind about them.


1. The Holocaust
2. Did Roosevelt Know About The Coming Attack on Pearl Harbor?
3. (Watch this space...)

One last item, STATE YOUR REFERENCES!  You're in tough company
here.  Some of the folks in this list are VERY sharp, and
you'll end up with egg on your face if you haven't done your
homework.


Normally the listserv will want you to subscribe from you own account rather
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You can also get the files by ftp if you have access.  FTP into ubvm.cc.buffalo.
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sensitive.

If I haven't suffciently confused you, send me e-mail and I'll finish the job:-)


Larry J
Date:         Wed, 16 Sep 1992 18:06:11 CDT
From: DONALD NEWCOMB <NEWCOMB%USMCP6.BITNET@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
Subject:      Getting back articles and the database

From:Larry Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Larry,
  One of the "niftiest" features of the listserver is the database
search. This allows the user to search for any subject and print
either an index of the "hits" or the articles themselves. For
instance if you mail the command sequence below to "listserv@ubvm.bitnet"
or "listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" it will send you an index of all
articles in the archive that deal with weapons (the WEAP: tag).
_
//Job
Database Search DD=Rules
//Rules DD *
sel * in wwii-l where subject contains ("weap:")
index
/*
_
If you change the word "index" to "print" it will return you a copy
of the articles themselves. I think you can start with the listserv
"help" command and find a complete set of instructions  for using the
database. The complete instructions are very complex and should only
be tackled by someone with experience with data searching experience.

Donald R. Newcomb - Univ. of Southern Mississippi - Gulf Park
   <NEWCOMB@USMCP6.BITNET>


Enough talking.  I can be reached at the following addresses;

Larry W. Jewell                      jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu
2501 Soldier's Home Rd. #58B         JEWELLL@PURCCVM
W. Lafayette, IN, 47906-3571
(317)496-3234


#Larry W. Jewell (ex-USN)  WWII-L Listowner   jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu     #
#"Sunday's horoscope is noteworthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly#
#unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life." #
#--"Your Horoscope," L.A. Evening Herald Express, Saturday, Dec. 6, 1941.   #

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 12:34:18 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: Calling a club a spade?

>
> Sid,
>
>      When referring to the American internment (or detention)
> camps for Japanese-Americans, please call them so.
>
>      Calling them "concentration camps" -- with the exterminatory
> connotations that carries, is inaccurate (if not rather dishonest).
>
>
> Steve,
>
>      It is my understanding that large numbers of Boer women and
> children died in the British concentration camps in South Africa,
> during the Boer War.  If that is true, they cannot be likened to
> the American internment/detention camps for Nisei.

That seems a dubious distinction at best.  More people were killed in
the Lubyanka and the Butyrki than in Alcatraz and Folsom.  Does that
mean that the latter two aren't prisons?

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 12:42:14 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: GEN: AMERICAN concentration camps?  Wrong!!

>         I completely agree that we should differentiate between the
> general occurrences of concentration camps and the death camps. But I
> choose not to put my head in the sand with euphemisms -- a spade is a
> spade.

I agree completely.  Words DO mean things, popular opinion notwithstanding.

Death camps are a subset of concentration camps.  Manzanar was a concentration
camp.  The absence of "showers" and crematoria does nothing to change that.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 14:02:26 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: Hitler ancestry........

>
>        I have read the same thing but can remember the books or
>          author. That was one reason given for HItler's orgins
>        of his final solution.....
>
>            Does anyone know if a certain period of HItler's life
>       is still unaccountable ???? I beleive it is his teen years
>        from when he was 16 or 17 till 22 or 23???? Supposedly
>         what I remember is that no one knows what he really did
>       or where he was......

I believe that Michael Moorecock or some other fantasy writer wrote
a story about this period, called "Young Adolf" or something similar.
I've got it packed away in a box somewhere.

>            One last thought....In Albert Speers biography
>         "inside the third reich"  Albert brought up one interesting
>           point that when he was named armanents minister, he found
>          the German army had so many different caliber guns
>         that if they had just stuck to certain ones and had
>         mass produced those, they would have done better in the
>          war???????
>
Actually, the Germans were one of the BETTER ones in this regard, about on
a par with the US and Soviets.  They had:

Smallarms
7.92x57mm
9x19mm
7.65mm Browning
7.63x25mm (Small quantities)
7.92x33mm

Artillery
20mm (various types)
37mm
40mm
50mm
75mm
128mm
150mm
150+mm

This isn't too bad in comparison to the US:

Smallarms
.30-06
.30 Carbine
.45acp
.38special
.380acp (General Officers' pistols)

Artillery
20mm (various)
37mm
40mm
57mm
75mm
105mm
155mm
175mm
8"

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 14:03:57 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: Calling a club a spade?

> Death rates for the Nisei were elevated:  they didn't get proper food,
> proper shelter, or proper medical care, and occasionally they were just
> shot to death.  You would have preferred combat to living in one, as
> did 10,000 or so who served in Europe in the Nisei units.  They were
> better than Auschwitz, but that isn't saying much.

And they would have been WRONG had they been exact duplicates of San Simeon.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 19:07:51 -0600
From:    mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: Alcatraz vs. Lubyanka:  No difference?

You really can't see the difference between the two,
  Christopher?  (What really shakes me is that you may
  be typical.)

One is for criminals, convicted as such after due process.
  The other was(/is?) for POLITICAL prisoners, regardless of
  due process.

One was the scene of innumerable political EXTERMINATIONS.  The
  other was for (a finite number of) legal executions.

Amazing.

Lou

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 19:12:55 -0600
From:    mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: UNinterned Hawaiian Nisei

Jim,

     Many of the Pearl Harbor dockworkers (who, among other
things, miraculously repaired YORKTOWN in time for her final
performance in the Battle of Midway) were Nisei.

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 19:15:48 -0600
From:    mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: Re: ADMIN: Demise of Listowner...

I'd volunteer, Larry, but I'm not sure where I'll be after
  June 30.

You've done a magnificent job, exercising good judgement with
  good humor.

Well done.

Lou Coatney, Western Illinois University Library

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 21:39:16 EST
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor,
         Marist Coll" <JZML@MARISTB.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Hitler ancestry........

>
>             one last wild thought...........In books I found that
>         pictures of churchill at times look totally different.
>  were these pictures of a double???? or I am just
>       reading too much into this.????
>
>                        bill
Prof. Martin Gilbert (Churchill's official biographer) makes no mention*
of a double although there is a persistent story in other texts of
Churchill's war speeches in Parliament being read on the BBC radio
by actor Norman Shelley because Winston was too busy to go to the
studio. The most likely explanation regarding the varying photos
is that Churchill's health took the occasion dip during the war
(slight stroke, a few heart scares, pneumonia) but due to his
remarkable constitution, he bounced back!
(*No mention that I can recall at the moment!) For further information
I suggest you read "Churchill: Taken from the Diaries of Lord Moran"
who was Churchill's physician and who wrote a controversial tell-all
book right after Sir Winston's death.

Jonah Triebwasser
Adjunct Instructor
Marist College
Dyson Building (Adult Education)
Poughkeepsie, New York12601
Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
E-Mail: jzml@maristb.marist.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 22:02:43 EST
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor,
         Marist Coll" <JZML@MARISTB.BITNET>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: Demise of Listowner...

> I've received an ultimatum from my doctors. I have to give up tending the
> list, or give up school. After a "mad moment" I made the sensible decision.
>
> We now have two options, find someone to take over the list, or close it
> down. Anyone who want to take over the list-tending duties should send me
> private e-mail. Prospective tenders should have a robust mailbox and the
> patience of Job. Knowledge of Unix is not critical, but you should have
> a fair amount of experience with the Bitnet/Internet to puzzle out some
> of the more bizarre messages.  I will be available as a "consultant" until
> you've gotten the system down.
>
> Larry J
>
>
Larry - I don't have the requisite expertise and I'm not volunteering;
just want to say how much I have enjoyed the list and how much I have
appreciated your stewardship. Regards - Jonah

Jonah Triebwasser
Adjunct Instructor
Marist College
Dyson Building (Adult Education)
Poughkeepsie, New York12601
Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
E-Mail: jzml@maristb.marist.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 23:36:40 -0500
From:    William Eldridge <eldridge@WORLD.STD.COM>
Subject: Sound Weapon

Ken Koester writes:

> I've actually seen a photograph of a secret weapon consisting of a
> giant speaker/sound system that literally blasted attacking soldiers
> to bits. It got a few tests on the eastern front, but the Germans
> never deployed it because, well, it was several stories high & took
> several days to erect before an attack.  Not a very feasible weapon,
> but it did apparently take out nearly a company at a blast in its tests.

Ken, please provide any more information on this strange scheme that you
can. Has anyone else on the list ever heard of this? What kinds of sounds
at what frequencies were employed? Given that there's no such thing as a
perfectly unidirectional speaker, how were the weapon's operators and
other German forces supposed to avoid being "blasted"?

I sometimes teach a course entitled "Music and Technology", with one unit
devoted to the use of music technology as a weapon (propaganda such as the
WWI British playing Bulgarian music on Victrolas to Bulgarians in opposing
trenches, psychological warfare such as the U.S. Army bombarding Noriega
with Nancy Sinatra, etc.). If anyone can point me toward interesting uses
of music/sound technology in WWII, I would be grateful.

-- Bill Eldridge

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 7 Mar 1994 to 8 Mar 1994
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 60 messages totalling 2184 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. "60 Minutes": Russian Hitler (Read!)
  2. Alcatraz vs. Lubyanka:  No difference?
  3. HOME: Nisei "shot to death"?  Please elaborate, Ken K. (3)
  4. Hitler's Holidays: What Nations? (4)
  5. "60 Minutes": Russian Hitler (2)
  6. GEN:  West Point Faculty (esp. for Terry Moore) (2)
  7. ..
  8. WEAP: Peenemunde, V2 etc
  9. HOME FRONT: Japanese American concentration camps
 10. ADMIN: Demise of Listowner...
 11. NOST Extant Rubble (2)
 12. INF: El Alamein strengths (2)
 13. political (3)
 14. Hitler's family, Hitler's Money ??? (2)
 15. Sound Weapon
 16. Nisei Detention Camps ... and the alternatives (6)
 17. Burp guns with bent barrels (3)
 18. Russian Hitler (2)
 19. Teaching fast and loose with the truth.
 20. internment camps
 21. market garden
 22. HOME: Nisei "shot to death"? etc.... (2)
 23. To Terry Moore. Why wishlist :) (2)
 24. Subscribe
 25. Detention camps, Concentration camps, or Internment camps?
 26. PC History/Politics:  The Battle of Words
 27. Blitzkrieg (2)
 28. To Terry Moore: Surrender-time projects (2)
 29. WEAP: Tidbits on various German MPs
 30. Nisei Camps
 31. Hitler Ancestry
 32. Nisei Camps- My 2 cents worth
 33. INF: Vietnam Forums
 34. Kublinka Tank Museum (3)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 21:15:00 PST
From:    Carey Stephens <WAR2@AXE.HUMBOLDT.EDU>
Subject: Re: "60 Minutes": Russian Hitler (Read!)

      Whoever this Vladimir dude is, I don't know.  I would be
      interested in any of his policies that you might have
       gathered from '3,600 seconds' or elsewhere.  Where did
       he come from, who supports him, what doctrine (if any)
      does he adhere to?  Stuff like this.  To be honest, your
      message was more sensationalistic than anything.  There
      needs to be more real life detail and less prediction
      to catch my intrigue.
                       Thanks though,
                       John Shermer   Hist 301320

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 23:13:29 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: Alcatraz vs. Lubyanka:  No difference?

>
> You really can't see the difference between the two,
>   Christopher?  (What really shakes me is that you may
>   be typical.)

They're both prisons.  Or are you saying that Alcatraz isn't a prison?

> One is for criminals, convicted as such after due process.
>   The other was(/is?) for POLITICAL prisoners, regardless of
>   due process.

I believe that all manner of people passed through the Lubyanka and
Butyrki, probably even one or two who deserved to be there.  Does
that mean that Alcatraz wasn't a prison?

> One was the scene of innumerable political EXTERMINATIONS.  The
>   other was for (a finite number of) legal executions.

Probably a few non political ones too.

> Amazing.

The desire to devalue the internment of the Japanese Americans in
concentration camps?  Yeah.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 8 Mar 1994 23:20:29 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: HOME: Nisei "shot to death"?  Please elaborate, Ken K.

>      While it is true that German-Americans and Italian-Americans
> weren't tossed into internment camps, Pearl Harbor was a JAPANESE
> attack, and the Rape of Nanking and other Japanese atrocities had
> been known/realized well before the war.

1) The US was involved in an undeclared naval war with Germany BEFORE
Pearl Harbor.  No Germans interned.

2) JAPANESE weren't the primary internees, Japanese AMERICANS, some of
them WWI vets were.

>      The anti-Japanese fear/hysteria is entirely understandable.

Anti-Japanese hysteria in America is no more "understandable" than
anti-Jewish hysteria in Germany, or anti-Korean hysteria in Japan.

> It is unfortunate that loyal Americans were victimized in the
> reaction, but now we all know the injustice/tragedy of it and
> maybe can avoid repetitions.

If I was a Japanese American, you can bet I'd have plans for the next
such "understandable" internment.  They wouldn't involve peacefully
submitting either.

>      However, exaggerating what did happen by referring to the
> camps as "concentration camps" or by denigrating the patriotism
> of the Japanese-Americans who flocked to the Colors, does not
> help the truthful learning of that unhappy lesson.
>
They were concentration camps.  A "nice" concentration camp is still a
concentration camp.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Mar 1994 00:20:31 EST
From:    Chuck Weckesser <71233.677@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: Hitler's Holidays: What Nations?

9 March 1994

Can anyone give me an exact list of *every* nation that Hitler personally
stepped foot in during his lifetime. This is a difficult period as many of
Hitler's early years are simply unaccounted for. The memory of his one friend
from his early life cannot be depended upon.

Shires states firmly that Hitler never visited the USA. That much I will buy.
But it would have been so easy to visit England and given his secret admiration
for the English, it would have made sense.

I know that, besides the obvious (Austria, his birthplace, and Germany proper,
including East Prussia) Hitler visited Poland, France, Holland, Denmark, USSR,
*possibly* Finland, and maybe what is now the Czeck Republic, but not Slovakia.

I think he may have visited Switzerland and Norway as well. I myself have been
in all of these nations as it is really not that expensive to traverse the
continent of my ancestors in style.

I do know that Hitler's travelling stopped dramatically after he departed Wolf's
Lair for good in January, 1945. East Prussia fell soon thereafter.

Am I missing any countries anyone? Did Hitler secretly visit Japan as one
historian believes to prop up the Tojo government?

Any additional answers would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Chuck

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Mar 1994 00:17:14 MST
From:    Michael Markowsky <abe7@EDUC.UCALGARY.CA>
Subject: Re: "60 Minutes": Russian Hitler

John Shermer wrote,

>       Whoever this Vladimir dude is, I don't know.  I would be
>       interested in any of his policies that you might have
>        gathered from '3,600 seconds' or elsewhere.  Where did
>        he come from, who supports him, what doctrine (if any)
>       does he adhere to?  Stuff like this.  To be honest, your
>       message was more sensationalistic than anything.  There
>       needs to be more real life detail and less prediction
>       to catch my intrigue.
>                        Thanks though,
>                        John Shermer   Hist 301320

John,
  60 minutes is a television program that investigates current
and past affairs. On this show they interview Vladimir
Zhirvinovsky (or however you spell it), in which he continued his
comments on; powerful weapons, destruction of countries and major
cities, the threats on Ukranian and Estonian peoples, claims of
Laser guns and large amounts of money from the US government and
various companies from Japan, alledged support from the Russian
army (after promising to give a summer house ? to each of his
officers and many other bribes), defending his friendship with
several veteral and current Nazi's and defending his sanity (or
insanity!).
  Another thing people find fustrating and frightening of this
man is his says anything to get people on his side. He has told
out of country companies to invest in russia as he will support
them. But he told a group of Nationalists that he would prevent
out of country companies to invest, he would kick out companies
like McDonalds and Pepsi. I'm having trouble recalling other
examples but there are at least 5 or 6 other good examples.
People find it scary that this man is going around telling lies
to people to gain their votes. This man just pulls facts out of
his head, coming up with fantastic fictional ideas. Take his
laser weapons for example, he told 60 minutes that he had laser
guns that could make objects dissapear.
  Let's focus on that. Would a TOP SECRET weapon that NO ONE
knows about be revealed to him, a unknown and ordinary man? Would
the highest ranking military officials tell him about this
weapon, knowing full well the size of his mouth (ie, he says
EVERYTHING on his mind, going as far as threatening to kill
vast amounts of people in various cultures.) ? Would a sane
political official reveal military secrets to the world if they
really existed? He says he's even seen this weapon, and seen it
work! I know Russia has financial trouble, but showing civilians
Laser gun demonstration.
  In MY opinion (and I know I speak for many other people when I
say) Vlad is a sick and an unstable man. People have even said he is
under the influence of drugs, much like Adolph HItler. He is
constantly contradicting himself, lying compulsively and
threating peoples and countries, and that is an FACT, and
undisputable fact. Is this the kind of person that should
be leading the second most powerful country in the world.
 John asked who supports Vlad. THIS is the million dollar
question! We know he has one fourth of the russian popoulation
behind him, but we don't know who. He claims that he has the FULL
backing of the russian military. About the others who support
him, one would have to expect that ordinary people like him.
  Because he is a man who is challenging the world powers and
trying to give some respect to his country. For a country that is
in economic trouble, people in russia love him. I guarrantee that
he has gained alot of his votes from his contradicting claims. If
he tells one group something they like, he may gain their
confidence. But then he goes and tells another group with
opposing pollical views as the first group something they like,
then he gains their support too. Of course the serious voters
will realise this and be turned off, but he still get the votes
of the people who don't pay attention.
  About my last message sounding "sensationalistic" and needing
"less prediction", I was just trying to bring up an interesting
fact. I was merely speculating on something I myself am highly
improbable. Some people on the list found it interesting and
wrote me privately about the topic. To each his own.  I thought
that since all but one fact made sense, I just had to mention it.
 I got out some magazines and read further on Vlad to try and
answer your letter and some curiousities others may have.

 Michael Markowsky
 Abe7@educ.ucalgary.ca

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Mar 1994 01:32:26 CST
From:    Steve Alvin <salvin@HEARTLAND.BRADLEY.EDU>
Subject: Re: "60 Minutes": Russian Hitler

Excuse me for going of list for a minute.

While not downplaying the nuclear threat of Russia, it is import-
ant to point out that the Russian military is in many ways only
a shadow of itself.  The Army is mostly unprepared for sustained
operations (the exceptions being some elite units like the
Airborne divisions and maybe a few armored divisions), the
air force is already feeling a crimp in spare parts, and the navy
is being rapidly reduced.  For example, two of the Kiev class
V/STOL carriers are being scrapped, one is being retained for
spares for the surviving operational Kiev class.  The big Kirov
battlecruisers and the Slava crusiers are to be mothballed.
All remaining cruisers, the Kynda and Kara classes are to
be struck.  Only 49 modern destroyers (Udaloy class and
Sovremennys class) and frigates (Neustrashimys) are to be
kept in service.  All amphibs are to be laid up.  24 SSBN'
s, 7 SSGN (Oscars), and 28 SSN's (Sierra & Victor III's) will
remain in service.  The Russian ship building industry has
all but stopped, except in a few yards.  Many of the remaining
ships will spend fewer day at sea than they did during the
days of the USSR (and then it was very few).

--
Steve Alvin
salvin@heartland.bradley.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Mar 1994 06:32:12 EST
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <hb9388@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: GEN:  West Point Faculty (esp. for Terry Moore)

Terry,

Sorry this has taken awhile.  Things have been busy.  I will try
to answer your questions to the best of my knowledge.  Where I
have a personal opinion, I will clearly indicate.

Barry

*******************Message follows below*****************************
>
>    Read your most interesting post relating to Lou's original. I
>have some questions.

>> Yes, West Point is looking for civilian faculty.  The superintendents
>> of all three academies had a major meeting with congressional leaders and
>>the service chiefs awhile back (1-2 years ago) and a decision was made to
>> increase the civilian faculty at the academies.  West Point WILL NOT be
>>going to an all-civilian faculty if that is what you think (from your
>>message).

First, LTC Con Crane corrected my numbers.  Yes, the correct percentage
is to eventually get to 25% of the total faculty.

>    Will the civilian faculty be required to wear uniforms?

No, when we are in class A's, they are in coat and tie.  When
we are in class B's, they must wear a tie.  When we are in BDUs,
they do not have to wear a tie.

>If not, will this not send mixed messages to the cadets?

No, I don't think so.  The cadets will understand which of the
professors are civilians and which ones are not.  After all,
the "high and tight" haircut is dead giveaway :-)

>What effect will this have on discipline?

I don't think this will be a problem.  The newly arriving
instructors, whether they are military or civilian undergo
a "New Instructor Training" program in each department.  I will
use the acronym NIT because that is what my department (Physics)
does.  Other departments may call the program by a different name
but the effect is the same.  The purpose of NIT is to train the
new instructors in the standards of the academy, the methodology
that each department uses in its teaching, and to give the new
instructors a chance to teach in front of their peers before they
get in front of the cadets.  We have received high marks from
the American Association of Physics Teachers for our training
program because many universities just assume that a person can
teach. (We know this is not true.)

All of the academic departments here have this program so
that we ensure a certain level of teaching expertise before the
new instructor ever sets foot in the classroom.  This also includes
an awareness of the cadet regulations, since many officers assigned
here are not USMA grads (although many are).

>The academy, it seems to me has access to many highly-qualified
>officers with the necessary credentials to offer quality
>instruction there. I am not so certain that many
>professional educators would necessarily improve the level of
>academic excellence. What sort of criteria would be implemented to
>attract and employ civilian professionals. Would there be a tenure-
>track system implemented? What about compensation? Would it be on a
>level or exceeding the level currently used within the Army? Also, do
>you or does the administration there envisage having two separate pay
>scales, one for military and one for civilian? Do you for one really
>think this will improve the quality of your graduates?

The 4 areas that the selection committee looks at are:
(Depending on the candidate, the roughly equal weighting
might change, but the emphasis is on a well-rounded person.)
These are the same areas that will be looked at when a
short-term contracted professor attempts to gain a long-term
contract; as well as when a civilian professor is up for an
academic promotion to assistant professor, associate professor,
and full professor.

1.  Teaching:  how good is this candidate as a teacher.  (Not just
a researcher!!!!!!!!!!!)  What experience and excellence in the
classroom does this candidate have.

2.  Scholarship:  what has the candidate done in the realm of
scholarship/research/publication since earning the PhD.

3.  Mentorship:  what has the candidate done to mentor/develop
the junior faculty and/or students at the university where the
candidate had been working.

4.  Service: what extra-curricular activities has the candidate
assisted in/worked with (this can be anything from an athletic club,
an academic club, Boy Scouts, Sunday school, etc.)

The other details of how the compensation will work, and what type
of tenure and/or long-term contracts are still in the works.  This
stuff I do not know.

>> The plan is over the next 15 years to increase the permanent (I say again
>> permanent) faculty to approximately 50% civilian.  There is no anticipated
>> change in the the rotating faculty (guys like me) because of the recognized
>> need for officer role models to teach the cadets.  The reason for the
>>increase in the civilian faculty is to gain the insight and experience of
>>professional educators, to maintain and/or improve the level of academic
>>excellence; but at the same time not change the overall academy experience.
>>Since the permanent faculty is around 36% of the total faculty, this will
>>mean that West Point will reach about 18% civilian faculty by the year 2002.

Like I said above, LTC Crane corrected this figure.  25% of the total
faculty by the year 2002.

One thing that you must remember is that the Army as a whole is
drawing down.  The Corps of Cadets has been reduced from 4400 to
4000 by attrition and reducing the number of accessions in each plebe
class.  This was dictated by Congress a few years ago.  Likewise,
the faculty has taken a 10% hit.  In the era of the drawdown, there
are fewer officers to go around.  It is very "expensive" for the Army
to maintain a faculty of 550 officers (not counting other officers
on the staff here).  When the Army had a strength of 750,000; 550
officers was a bearable figure.  With the Army soon to be at 520,000;
550 is too many.  This can be reduced by having more civilian
instructors.

>    I really wonder if that goal is attainable, in that the academy
>experience will not be affected by the inclusion of civilian
>instructors. It seems to me that the Academy may employ civilian
>instructors who may not fully understand what the Academy is all
>about, and could affect discipline. I realize that I am prejudiced,
>because I have always felt that all the service academies have access
>to the very best of whatever is required to fulfill the mission, and,
>I, for one, would need some convincing to fully support your
>administration's position that professional civilian instructors can
>do as better or better job than with the staff you have.

The selection committee has been very careful in their selections.
They are picking highly qualified civilian professors that believe
in the same "Duty, Honor, Country" ideals that we do.  While I
do not know how the contract and tenure system will work, I do
know that the long-term contracts will not be given to professors
who cannot live up to the academy's ideals.

Remember, this is the academic faculty we are talking about.  Each
cadet company will still have a CPT or MAJ as a tactical officer
and a SSG or SFC as a tactical NCO.  This will not change.  I truly
think there will be no change in the level of discipline in the
Corps of Cadets.

However, one thing I do think will change is the exposure of the
cadets to the experiences of the instructor.  I don't spend every
minute of every class period discussing physics.  I often will talk
about things going in the Army, my experiences as a PLT LDR and
CO CDR, my experiences as a cadet, and current issues like the honor
code, duty concept, leadership traits, etc.

This is one area that unfortunately will be affected by more
civilian faculty.  I do not think there will be any reduction
in the academic excellence and performance that we expect from
the cadets.

>    Please let me know your thoughts or anyone else for that matter.

Overall, I do think this is a pretty good move, and an excellence
compromise that our Superintendent worked out with Sen. Nunn.
The fundamental character of the West Point experience will not
change.  The large majority of the faculty will still be officers.

The bottom line is that senior CPTs and junior MAJs are in great
demand in many places in the Army.  The Army cannot afford to have
550 highly qualified officers here.  A number around 450 is a cost
that has been decided that is reasonable. There are requirements
for more officers to work with the Reserve components to improve
their combat readiness and training, there are requirements for
officers on joint staffs and Allied staffs (especially as US Army
Europe is decreasing), and for officers to be more involved in the
acquisition process (hence the formation of the Army Acquisition
Corps).

I hope this answers some of your questions.

Barry

Barrett F. Lowe               RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, West Point  (e-mail:  hb9388%usma6@trotter.usma.edu)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Mar 1994 13:52:45 +0100
From:    Geert Beerens <Geert.Beerens@RUG.AC.BE>
Subject: ..

sub: WWII-L GEERT BEERENS

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Mar 1994 06:58:20 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Peenemunde, V2 etc

Hello, Wilber!

To answer your questions. Here goes:

   Focke-Wulf Projects
> >
> >Rotary Wing Ramjet Fighter
>
> This sounds interesting! Do you have some more description about this
> project?

    Yes, I do and I will be very happy to post the info to you.
However, it will be the first of next week before I can start sending
it to you, as I have to leave for a state meeting on Thursday.

I will write you on Monday.

Thank you very much.

Terry




Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Mar 1994 08:12:36 -0500
From:    "W. C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <ERCOUPE@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: HOME FRONT: Japanese American concentration camps

Perhaps one can better understand (and note the word UNDERSTAND which
is not the same as VALIDATE, EXCUSE, SUPPORT) the camps if one puts
themselves back into the setting.  History is done a disservice when
it is not examined in its own time.

Point #1.  WAR has always caused the Constitutional freedoms to be set
                aside in the interest of the larger threat.  If you
                look closely, you will see that there were many sanctions
                on free speech, free assembly, etc. during wartime.
                It is a sad fact of life.

Point #2.  There WAS a uniqueness about the perception of Japanese at
                the time.  Their religion and their nationality were
                seen as being intertwined.  Therefore, it was believed
                that Emperor-Worship was an intrinsic part of being
                "Japanese"...even though the other half may have been
                "American".  Imagine, if you will, a perception that
                any German-American or any Italian-American was, by
                exercise of their religion, worshipping Hitler or
                Mussolini.  I would postulate that their perceived
                'threat' would have been the same.  As it turns out,
                this perception was flawed and the general anti-Japanese
                hysteria was the operative factor.  But then again, that
                is a human reaction, not limited to Americans or Japanese
                or Germans.  The book WAR WITHOUT MERCY is a good (if
                slightly biased) source for some information on this
                phenomenon.  If you are looking for some real reprehensible
                stuff, look at the way the Native Americans were treated
                in the 19th century...and still are to a certain extent.

Them's just my two pennies worth....

Bill
N93774@vms.cis.pitt.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Mar 1994 07:03:35 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: Demise of Listowner...

Hello, Larry!

I'm shocked! When did all this come about?

I personally can't imagine this list without you.

Terry




Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Mar 1994 08:47:30 -0500
From:    "W. C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <ERCOUPE@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: NOST Extant Rubble

There is a book, published in Australia by the Kokaburra Press
entitled PACIFIC AIRCRAFT WRECKS AND WHERE TO FIND THEM.  It
was a limited publication, now out of print.  But if you can
get hold of a copy thru Interlibrary Loan, you will have a
field day.  Lots of interesting stuff, all limited to WWII
aircraft in the South Pacific.

Bill
N93774@vms.cis.pitt.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Mar 1994 09:42:25 EST
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <hb9388@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: INF: El Alamein strengths

Steve,

I've enjoyed this discussion on the fighting abilities of the Italian
soldier.

My own personal experience while being stationed in Vicenza, Italy
from 1982-85 showed me the same pretty much holds true today.

The Alpini units and airborne units we trained with were in general
quite good, and they also had a lower percentage of conscripts.

One of the first sergeants of the 3rd Alpini Company (who was of
Tyrolean ancestry) said the Alpini units were good because many
of the soldiers were of German/Austrian  descent.

I know the Bersaglieri and San MArco marines have good reps to.
I never trained with these units.

The standard mechanized infantry and armor units we sometimes
trained with were definitely not as good.  The motivation level
of the average conscript was pretty low.

Bear

P.S. I don't know much about Scottish soccer.  I presume the Rangers
are one of the premier teams?

Barrett F. Lowe               RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, West Point  (e-mail:  hb9388%usma6@trotter.usma.edu)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Mar 1994 10:05:03 -0400
From:    QUACK <MUSCORJ@HSDWL.UTC.COM>
Subject: Re: NOST Extant Rubble

I've got a copy of PACIFIC AIRCRAFT WRECKS ETC. and have often wondered
if there has been a sequel by Kokaburra or are there any other books of this
type dealing with aircraft wrecks in other countries. Perhaps, After The
Battle is the only other source of such info.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Mar 1994 10:15:52 EST
From:    Bill Vasilion <wvasilion@VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject: political

         Thanks for the information on Churchill.......I have seen
        references to Lord MOran's book, but I have not read it.
        I will have to do so. I remember hearing that the famous speech
        of "we will fight on the beaches, " was actually an actor's
         voice.... do you remember that after churchill broadcast the
         speech or actually gave the speech he was to have said
         and we will fight them with beer bottle if neccessary."

            I have seen the gilbert books but I have not sat down
        long enought to read them..... can anyone tell me if I can
        get a copy of winston Churchill's funeral. I remember seeing it
        on television when I was 13 and was fascinated by the pomp.
        On tv they referred to this as Churchill's own plan and he called
        it "OPERATION HOPENOT"

                    thanks.........bill

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Date:    Wed, 9 Mar 1994 15:27:40 GMT
From:    Stephen Baldwin <smb@NETMGRS.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: INF: El Alamein strengths

Hi there Bear!
(isn't it a rather informal title for one at West Point?)

Interesting last mail of yours.  Yes. I too have enjoyed the
"chat". I don't think I am that much nearer to arriving at
conclusions re Monty/El Alamein et al. However, certainly a lot to ponder
from yourself and the other subscribers...I will investigate
more when I can get more than half a waking hour away from my
work!

:-(

Best Regards

steve


>       P.S. I don't know much about Scottish soccer.  I presume the Rangers
>       are one of the premier teams?
Rangers are _the_ premier team in Scotland. They win nearly everything.
Their arch rivals, Celtic, are on the point of bankruptcy...


PS
I trust you will be supporting the new Terry Venables England
team tonight. Having let the USA beat us (again!) we are about to
drub those vikings from Denmark...well, no compensation for not making
it to the  world cup ... What's this got to do with WWII? Well, there
was a film on TV t'other week-end. Rather silly with loads of
1970s soccer stars as POWs playing Germany at soccer and spurning the
chance to escape so as to beat the Germans at soccer!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Mar 1994 15:43:00 GMT
From:    Stephen Baldwin <smb@NETMGRS.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: political

Bill Vasilion writes
.                   I have seen the gilbert books but I have not sat down
.               long enought to read them..... can anyone tell me if I can
.               get a copy of winston Churchill's funeral. I remember seeing it
If you sit down to read the lot Bill, take enough supplies to last
the year. Gilbert took up the baton after the death of Randolph
Churchill, WSC's son. Randolph only outlived his father by 3 or so
years and managed to cover the period 1874? - 1900? or sthg like that.
He _may_ have done the next one too - 1902?-1914. Certainly Gilbert
does 1914-1965.

There have been other, "cut down" series on WSC. I can't comment on
them though. Re WSC's death, the tribute paid to him in the House of
Commons from Harold Wilson is particularly moving.

Steve Baldwin
smb@nermgrs.co.uk

ps - speaking of these books reminds me to
commend secondhand bookshops. Back home (Isle of Wight) is a fine
s/h bookshop. I wandered in there and saw several of the Gilbert
books (hardback) @ 12 pounds each. Near the s/h bookshop is a "new" bookshop.
Enquiring there, they told me that the softback editions were 25 pounds
a volume and the h/b were 40 pounds. Being near Christmas, I rushed
home and ordered those interested in contributing to my Christmas
to go & buy s/h Gilberts. The hard bit came when I started to read...

Also picked up WSC/The Second World War 30 pounds for 6 volumes (h/b)

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Date:    Wed, 9 Mar 1994 10:00:29 -0600
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: Hitler's Holidays: What Nations?

> I know that, besides the obvious (Austria, his birthplace, and Germany proper,
> including East Prussia) Hitler visited Poland, France, Holland, Denmark, USSR,
> *possibly* Finland, and maybe what is now the Czeck Republic, but not Slovakia.
>
> I think he may have visited Switzerland and Norway as well.
> Lair for good in January, 1945. East Prussia fell soon thereafter.
>
> Am I missing any countries anyone?
>
> Chuck

Hi Chuck,

You missed the state visit to Italy in 1937.

As for Hitler's pre-Fuehrer travels I doubt he made many that the
Bavarian Army didn't foot the bill for.  Travel was for the well to
do at the turn of the century.  Hitler was living hand to mouth on a
government pension as an orphan.  I don't see him hanging with the
"in" crowd on the Riviera or checking out the shopping in Picadilly.

Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Mar 1994 10:57:05 EST
From:    Chuck Weckesser <71233.677@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: Hitler's family, Hitler's Money ???

Dear List Peers,

Is it true that Hitler personally spared the life of the Jewish doctor (assuming
that what I have been told is true and that her doctor was Jewish) who treated
Hitler's mother??? If so, interesting indeed. . .

Also, can anyone please tell me what ever became of Hitler's sister? I am sure
he had one. Did she survive the war? She was Geli Rabaul's (sp?) mother, was she
not?

Finally, I have been told that unlike *most* of the high ranking Nazi's, Goring
in particular (his Klarinhall estate was a disgrace given "total war"), Adolf
Hitler actually died penniless.

I find this hard to believe. He did not plunder any art or money or personally
profit in anyway from the war? Could someone please clear this question up?

Regards,

Chuck

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Date:    Wed, 9 Mar 1994 11:02:37 -0500
From:    Justin Gustainis SUNY-Plattsburgh <GUSTAIJJ@SPLAVA.CC.PLATTSBURGH.EDU>
Subject: Re: HOME: Nisei "shot to death"?  Please elaborate, Ken K.

This debate over whether the camps for Japanese Americans were "Concentration
camps" or not obviously hinges on how one defines one's terms, so let's
talk about terms explicitly.

MIRRIAM WEBSTER'S COLLEGIATE DICTIONARY defines a concentration camp as
"a camp where persons (as prisoners of war, p