Subject: WWII-L Digest - 11 Mar 1994 to 12 Mar 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 1994 00:00:07 -0500

There are 24 messages totalling 772 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Poland Defeated The Red Army! (5)
  2. Von Paulus: General or Field Marshall?
  3. Soviet Armoured Trains (2)
  4. HOME: Americans in concentration camps (2)
  5. "Rosey The Riveter"
  6. Military Disrespect For the President
  7. Rosie the riveter (2)
  8. Should We Cancel The Draft? (2)
  9. "Nazi": Offensive Word????
 10. QUEST: Explain USA Officer Ranks (3)
 11. Re[2]: Nisei Detention Camps ... and the alternatives (3)
 12. WEAP: Last "Kelly" Helmet

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 11 Mar 1994 19:23:29 EST
From:    Chuck Weckesser <[email-masked]>
Subject: Poland Defeated The Red Army!

There is a false myth surrounding the Red Army (1917-1991) which should be
shattered once and for all. First, everyone knows how terribly the Red Army
handled the invasion and rape of Finland in 1939. The Finns under Mannerstein,
skis and all, did an incredible job.

But Poland - yes Poland! - actually *DEFEATED* the Red Army in 1920. The Polish
Army did what Napolean and Hitler could not do! They were literally at the gates
of Moscow when the Soviets had the good sense to sue for peace.

The fact that the Poles defeated the Red Army is the real reason that Stalin
murdered the Polish Officer Corps at Katyn. That's my opinion anyway. . .

Regards,

Chuck

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 11 Mar 1994 23:26:12 CST
From:    Steve Alvin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Von Paulus: General or Field Marshall?

I don't think the German Government tried to hide the disaster
at Stalingrad, but they did try, to use a 90's phrase, to put
a spin on it.  I remeber looking at old issues of Signal (I think
that the title), a magazine put out by the German Govt in many
foreign languages, including English, drawing of the "heroic"
last stand of Germans (all looking like perfect aryans and not
to worse the ware from being halfed starved--sort of like the
300 pound re-enactors I've seen on various battlefields :-))
in the ruins of Stalingrad.  One represented the final defense
of a divisional headquaters, etc.

--
Steve Alvin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 12 Mar 1994 16:02:22 +1000
From:    Athol Yates <[email-masked]>
Subject: Soviet Armoured Trains

I am considering producing a book on Soviet Armoured Trains in
conjunction with the Russian Military History Institute. However, I am
unconvinced that there is a market for such a book. The only similar book
I've seen is one on German WW2 trains out of USA and translated in German.
I would welcome any comments on whether this proposed book would attract
an audience. Athol Yates

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 12 Mar 1994 08:25:11 -0500
From:    Daniel Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HOME: Americans in concentration camps

> camps. For my part, I'm actually raising a question about early 20th
> Century civilization. These camps, whatever you call them, appeared in
> several countries. It interests me that they would show up in a more
> liberal democracy such as the U.S. and in countries more prone to have
> strong police powers. I'm not as concerned about the rhetoric
> dimension as trying to delimit and understand a facet of life during
> and before WWII. So what bothers me is the quick move to claim that
>                                                         --Sid

I believe that concentration camps were instituted by, and named by, the
British during the Boer War. They concentrated the population that might
otherwise have aided the Boers.

We did the same in Vietnam with the "strategic hamlet" program, though
the intent was somewhat different. (There was an element of defense as
well as of denying a population base to the Viet Cong.)

Further to the difference between the internment of Japanese-Americans
and not of German-Americans, I still see a radical difference in the
populations. The eastern seaboard did not have large, unassimilated
populations of German-Americans who (in the paranoia of the time) could
have supported a German invasion. California had such a population in the
case of Japanese-Americans. Furthermore, there was no possibility that
Germany could have mounted an invasion of the U.S. east coast (they
couldn't even get their act together to cross the channel to invade
England) while the Japanese army and navy seemed unstoppable in the
winter of 1941-42 not only to the U.S. but also to themselves.

If you take note of U.S. military measures in December of 1941, you will
note that they all have to do with the defense of California. That's
where we sent Stilwell, and that's where we sent our only operational
B-26 bomber group--not to the relief of the Philippines, for example.

Regards -

Dan Ford      <e-mail: [email-masked]>

              <postal: 433 Bay Road, Durham NH 03824 USA>
              <voice or fax: +1-603-868-5850>

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 12 Mar 1994 09:41:05 EST
From:    Chuck Weckesser <[email-masked]>
Subject: "Rosey The Riveter"

This post concerns the Home Front. As a junior high school child, I distinctly
recall our history teacher (a male, BTW) showing us a war film called "Rosey The
Riveter." (or something like that).

Does anyone else remember this film? I for one find it amazing how quickly the
US Government reversed gears and fired women to make room for returning GI's (it
was like slapping them in the face - after all, their war effort was
invaluable).

I was only 13 when I saw that movie. But I became an "Alan Alda" ERA type of guy
immediately thereafter. I was impressed.

Regards,

Chuck

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 12 Mar 1994 08:56:59 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Poland Defeated The Red Army!

> handled the invasion and rape of Finland in 1939. The Finns under Mannerstein,
> skis and all, did an incredible job.

Mannerheim.

> But Poland - yes Poland! - actually *DEFEATED* the Red Army in 1920. The Polish
> Army did what Napolean and Hitler could not do! They were literally at the gates
> of Moscow when the Soviets had the good sense to sue for peace.

1) Some of this had to do with the incompetance of Stalin as I recall.  One of
the predictors of Bolshevik success on a front was the ABSENCE of Stalin.

2) The French put a great deal of effort into ensuring the success of the
Poles, supplying arms, advisors, and even some combat units, I believe.

> The fact that the Poles defeated the Red Army is the real reason that Stalin
> murdered the Polish Officer Corps at Katyn. That's my opinion anyway. . .

By that time, destruction of the social infrastructure of a conquered nation
was SOP for the Soviets.  Hell, by then they'd destroyed their OWN several
times over.  Read Nikolai Tolstoy's accounts of NKVD activity in Lvov.  Even
the SS were taken aback.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 12 Mar 1994 08:51:23 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Soviet Armoured Trains

>
> I am considering producing a book on Soviet Armoured Trains in
> conjunction with the Russian Military History Institute. However, I am
> unconvinced that there is a market for such a book. The only similar book
> I've seen is one on German WW2 trains out of USA and translated in German.
> I would welcome any comments on whether this proposed book would attract
> an audience. Athol Yates

I don't see why it wouldn't be popular, especially if you covered the entire
topic of armed trains in Russia, etc., especially the travels of the Czech
Legion and Trotsky.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 12 Mar 1994 10:00:16 EST
From:    Chuck Weckesser <[email-masked]>
Subject: Military Disrespect For the President

Shockingly, I am still seeing *written* instances of members of the Armed Forces
publically attacking the President's politics. That's fine *if* you are a
private citizen, but not if you wear the uniform of our country and believe in,
and respect, the civilian-chain-of-command.

I even wrote a terse note to Colin Powell within a month of Clinton becoming the
President because I was appalled at the blatant disrespect. I need not remind
many of you that our *best* war leader, FDR, did NOT serve even though he was
fit and his post, Assistant Secretary of the Navy was obscure and his duties
could easily have been filled by someone else (so what if the "other" Roosevelt
was also Assistant Secretary of the Navy?).

FDR did not contract polio until 1922. So there is *no excuse* for his lack of
service. None. Therefore, it is unfair to attack the President on these grounds.
I for one find it *refreshing* to have a non-military perspective for a change.
I assure you, the President is in no way discounting the advice he receives from
JCS (as I rudely discovered in January when he reversed himself on gays in the
military - the *only* reason why I voted for him; if I had known that, I would
have voted for Bush).

At any rate, if Jesse Jackson were to become President in 1997 I would *still*
be writing this post. It is absolutely crucial that our traditional respect for
the civilian chain-of-command be kept intact and that we feret out all officers
currently serving who state offensive things about the President (although feel
free to say what you will about Hilary, who has no title and is thus fair game
to criticism from officers).

The bottom line is that once you are the President, that's it, it's over (e.g.
the military grumbling). It's time to wait until Noon on 20 January 1997 if a
new man or woman becomes President before officers can feel free to attack Mr.
Clinton's politics.

Just my opinion. . .

Regards,

Chuck

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 12 Mar 1994 09:47:18 -0400
From:    george urbaniak F <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Poland Defeated The Red Army!

        What exactly is the false myth you are trying to debunk?  Every
historian knows that the Polish Army under Pilsudski defeated the Red Army
under Tukhashevsky in 1920.  I would also have thought that a historian would
have known that the Poles defeated it closer to the gates of Warsaw than
Moscow.  Indeed, at no point in the 1920 campaign were the Polish forces near
the gates of Moscow which should not surprise anyone since Poland's main
thrust was towards Kiev.  The Poles had occupied Moscow twice before but
not in the twentienth century.
        It is not surprising that Napoleon did not defeat the Red Army
because it did not exist in his time.
        The Finns under Mannerheim (not Mannerstein!) did well against the
local Red Army forces that invaded Finland in 1939.  They did not however
initially face any elite troops but rather the local troops of the
Leningrad region which underestimated Finnish abilities.  The Finns had a
much harder time in 1940 and 1944 against better Red Army formations.  If
anything the myth in 1939/40 was that the Finns could defeat the Red Army.
This may have given Hitler and the General Staff added confidence but
Hitler would have undoubtedly invaded the Soviet Union regardless of the
outcome of the sideshow with Finland.
        Neither the Polish defeat of the Red Army in 1920 nor the
difficulties in Finland in 1939 should in any way detract from the Red
Army's achievement in defeating the Axis forces in the Second World War.
The Red Army took on the bulk of Axis forces and crushed the Nazi beast.
This crushing is no myth and the western world owes a debt of gratitude to the
Red Army for this accomplishment.  While it is true that the Red Army
abused its recruits more than most armies and was an instrument of Soviet
domination over many unwilling people, it is important to give credit where
it is due and not consign all of the Red Army's victories to the realm of
mythology.
        George Urbaniak

On Fri, 11 Mar 1994, Chuck Weckesser wrote:

> There is a false myth surrounding the Red Army (1917-1991) which should be
> shattered once and for all. First, everyone knows how terribly the Red Army
> handled the invasion and rape of Finland in 1939. The Finns under Mannerstein,
> skis and all, did an incredible job.
>
> But Poland - yes Poland! - actually *DEFEATED* the Red Army in 1920. The Polish
> Army did what Napolean and Hitler could not do! They were literally at the gates
> of Moscow when the Soviets had the good sense to sue for peace.
>
> The fact that the Poles defeated the Red Army is the real reason that Stalin
> murdered the Polish Officer Corps at Katyn. That's my opinion anyway. . .
>
> Regards,
>
> Chuck

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 12 Mar 1994 10:21:10 EST
From:    Bill Vasilion <[email-masked]>
Subject: Rosie the riveter

         Chuck...rosie was the 'name' of all the women who worked in
        the war plants....getting the airplanes and other essential
        products ready for war......I think thier may have been a
         song written also but I may be wrong..(corrections please)
             Also remember in 1946 it was still a mans world.
        In that a majority of the women were at home with families
and if they did work..they did not carry the clout or respect
   that some do today. so no I think a few of the women were happy to
     go back to the life they were leading then.. because so many were
    brought up to be in the househould... that is what was happening
   then.

       It was an interesting era...

                            bill

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 12 Mar 1994 10:29:04 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HOME: Americans in concentration camps

> Further to the difference between the internment of Japanese-Americans
> and not of German-Americans, I still see a radical difference in the
> populations. The eastern seaboard did not have large, unassimilated
> populations of German-Americans who (in the paranoia of the time) could
> have supported a German invasion. California had such a population in the
> case of Japanese-Americans. Furthermore, there was no possibility that
> Germany could have mounted an invasion of the U.S. east coast (they
> couldn't even get their act together to cross the channel to invade
> England) while the Japanese army and navy seemed unstoppable in the
> winter of 1941-42 not only to the U.S. but also to themselves.

How do you define "assimilated"?  The Japanese have been one of the groups
MOST integrated into mainstream U.S. society.  Certainly as much so as the
Italians and Irish.  The difference is of course they LOOK different.

As far as large German populations in the East, I suggest you look again.
Even TODAY there are numbers of organized German cultural groups in the
Cleveland area ALONE.  Hell, I live no more than a mile or two from one of
them, the "Vereinigung der Donau Schwaben".  There's also another large
German cultural association in the vicinity of Seven Hills.

And rather than the speculative "reservists associations" attributed to the
Japanese, there was the German-American Bund.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 12 Mar 1994 10:30:15 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Should We Cancel The Draft?

Personally, I am in favor of reinstating the draft, and requiring one year of
public service for everyone, which could be served in the military or in
a whole list of public service activities.  I really favor everyone
serving in the military, but I doubt if I could sell that, what with
the gods which we worship in this day and age.

But I believe doing away with the draft was a serious mistake, and I would
be opposed to any further dismantling of the system.

I could give a number of reasons for my position but will refrain as I
suspect I am roughly a minority of one.

george bauer

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 12 Mar 1994 12:31:13 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Poland Defeated The Red Army!

>         Neither the Polish defeat of the Red Army in 1920 nor the
> difficulties in Finland in 1939 should in any way detract from the Red
> Army's achievement in defeating the Axis forces in the Second World War.
> The Red Army took on the bulk of Axis forces and crushed the Nazi beast.
> This crushing is no myth and the western world owes a debt of gratitude to the
> Red Army for this accomplishment.  While it is true that the Red Army
> abused its recruits more than most armies and was an instrument of Soviet
> domination over many unwilling people, it is important to give credit where
> it is due and not consign all of the Red Army's victories to the realm of
> mythology.

The problem is that because of the simultaneous decapitation and disemboweling
of the Red Army, the COST of the victory was VASTLY greater than would have
been the case otherwise, even WITH Soviet assistance to Nazi Germany.

The best minds of the Red Army were slaughtered like so many steers, including
the virtual inventors of combat airborne operations.  Remember, the FIRST
combat airborne jump was carried out in Soviet Central Asia.

The Tukhachevskis and Paukers were wiped out (down to battalion level) and
replaced alternately with clones of those idiots and mediocrities like
Voroshilov or thoroughly cowed junior officers, whose central concern was
merest survival.

As well, Stalin helped to CREATE the force which devastated the Soviet Union
and almost toppled HIM from power.  By siding with Hitler in the partition
of Eastern Europe, and materially aiding the rearmament of Germany, he handed
a loaded and cocked pistol to the person who hated him more than virtually
anyone else.

Stalin's paralysis during the early stages of the German attack was only the
frosting on the cake.

While one should be proud I suppose, of one's ability to win a prizefight with
one hand tied behind one's back, the question inevitably arises what the point
of tying one's own hand in that position was in the first place.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 12 Mar 1994 11:26:53 -0600
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: "Nazi": Offensive Word????

In message <[email-masked]> World War II Discussion List
writes:
> I just received a "private" e-mail that using the word "Nazi" is an "ethnic"
> attack on present day Germans. FYI. . .

Ouch.  "Nazi" is the name of a political party and an idiological doctrine
associated with the party.  The name was self-applied and still used today
by those who adhere to those doctrines.

As far as Germans, not all Germans were (are) Nazis, neither are all Nazis
German.

Unlike terms that are truly derogatory, the name was not assigned to the
group by those wishing to degrade them.  Therefore, the name is completely
valid and doesn't fit under the overactive "Political Correctness" movement.

The term can be _used_ in a derogatory manner (just like you can offend a
Republican by telling him that he has the military funding attitudes of a
Democrat... :-) but the word itself is not offensive except to your own
sensitivies and beliefs.

Political Correctness.  Shudder.

--
Robert J. Granvin                                             [email-masked]
University of Minnesota, School of Statistics
         "I'm my father?  I'm my mother?  I'm chipped beef on toast?"

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 12 Mar 1994 15:01:23 EST
From:    Martha Wheless <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Rosie the riveter

There is a song named "Rosie the Riveter".  It goes something like
        All the day long whether rain or shine
        She's a part of the assembly line
        She's making history, working for victory
        Rosie (pause) the Riveter.

I believe I saw a reissue of a film in one of the media catalogs
my Social Studies Dept. received last year.

I'm not sure how to follow that up however.

Regards,
Martha Wheless
lingua@ccpo,odu,edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 12 Mar 1994 14:03:38 CST
From:    Steve Alvin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Poland Defeated The Red Army!

The role of the French in helping Poland repel the Soviet invasion
of consisted primarily of sending officers to help train the
Polish troops.  At its height, the French Mission consisted of
9 generals, 29 cocolonels, 63 majors, about 200 captains, and
400 lts.  France also supplied arms and amm
ammunition, but never enough of either.

Polish supply problems were imense.  One division might find itself
equipped with four different rifles, the French Lebel, the Austrian
Mannlicher, the Russian Berdan, and the German Mauser--each used
different ammuntion.

General Weygand was in Warsaw during the critical battle of Warsaw.
The advise he gave was based on Western Front tactics and basically
ignored by Pilsudski, who used his own plan to defeat the Soviets.

As far as I know, no French combat units fought in this war.

A good book on Poland between the wars  is
Bitter Glory by Richard Watt.

--
Steve Alvin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 12 Mar 1994 15:13:16 EST
From:    Martha Wheless <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Should We Cancel The Draft?

Okay Chuck you pushed a few buttons here.

Don't assume that women "dodge" the draft.  For hundreds of years
women have been considered, by men, to be inferior beings, incapable
of serving in combat situations.  The military is beginning to open
their eyes on this one.  However, most fighter pilots I know do not
want women in their squadrons.

The idea of everyone performing either community or national public
service has a lot of merit.  Some people have even suggested making
such service a requirement for citizenship; 1 year of part-time service
for the right to vote, etc.  I personally would not go that far.
However, think of all that could be done with a large supply of
volunteer labor.  The idea of volunteerism might get a firm
foothold in the minds of young Americans.

You do need to be careful of making broad generalizations.  Remember
sometimes the shoe can be on the other foot.

Martha Wheless
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 12 Mar 1994 15:09:00 -0600
From:    "Richard H. Miller" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: QUEST: Explain USA Officer Ranks

>On Fri, 11 Mar 1994 12:58:25 EST Chuck Weckesser <[email-masked]>
wrote
>Subject:  QUEST:  Explain USA Officer Ranks
>I think the rank of "Field Marshal" has a certain aura of panache and
>class. As I have not personally served before, could a current or retired
>officer of any branch of our Armed Forces explain why America never created
>the rank of Field Marshal?

AS other have indicated it may have been due to being too 'European'.  It is
also part of the folklore that General Marshall had somewhat of an objection
to Marshal Marshall.

>Was it even considered?  Also, I recently read somewhere that the American
>rank of "Commodore" (sp?) is once again in use in our Navy.  What is the
>difference between a Commodore and a "Admiral Lower Half" (I met such an
>individual once and I am fairly certain that I am correctly quoting his
>rank).

The one-star rank of Commmodore was an emrgency rank (during WWII). (I
remember seeing a picture of Arleigh Burke as a commodore)  The usual
pattern for USN was to promote from CAPT to RADM (into the lower half) so
only the paymaster and the officers contemporaries knew whether he was lower
half or upper half.  This automatically made a new naval flag officer
superior
to every one star in the Army, Air Force and Marines.  In the early
seventies,
a decision was made to revive the rank of Commodore as the one-star rank and
every officer was promoted to Commodore from CAPT.  This was the practice for
several years in the late seventies and early eighties.  The nacal officers
then objected because they were no longer admirals (unlike the other services
in which they became generals).  Legislation was passed and the pattern now
became O7 was aRADM (lower) and the rank insignia finally reflected this (one
star and one broad stripe).  Although for a year or so, the rank of commodore
actually was commodore admiral.

--
Richard H. Miller                 Email: [email-masked]
Asst. Dir. for Technical Support  Voice: (713)798-3532
Baylor College of Medicine        US Mail: One Baylor Plaza, 302H
                                           Houston, Texas 77030

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 12 Mar 1994 16:22:39 EST
From:    Chuck McCormick <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re[2]: Nisei Detention Camps ... and the alternatives

I have a few things to add to this episode and rather than send
off one large post I'll do this in parts.  This one is mostly a
comment on German Americans (since I am one).

______________________________ Reply Separator ________________
Subject: Re: Nisei Detention Camps ... and the alternatives
Author:  [email-masked] at [email-masked]
Date:    3/10/94 8:02 PM

>> COMMON SENSE?  How come "common sense" didn't dictate interning the
>GERMAN > Americans when GERMAN spies had been discovered?
>>
>I think you will find that in WWI German-Americans were rather
badly

Yes.  During WWI German shops in several cities were destroyed
by militant Americans.

>treated. In another generation, however, they had become
sufficiently
>integrated into the larger society that there was no
>large-scale German
>bashing. (I am sure there were individual
>cases.)

There certainly were individual cases.  The University I
attended was founded by Austrain monks.  Some of the oldest
buildings on campus had doors and windows decorated with
swastikas.  Swastikas are an ancient religious symobol for
Christians (as well as Hindus--if you ever visit India you will
see swastikas everywhere).  The decorations at this University
were vandalized by US Army troops who were trained at the
University and the government never compensated the University
for the damage.

Keep in mind that German-Americans are the largest ethnic group
in the US--in 1990 there were 57.9 German-Americans.  By
contrast, there were 38.7 Irish-Americans, and 32.6
Anglo-Americans (these numbers are from the 1992 Statistical
Abstract of the US).  I don't think that the war effort would
have gone very far if you had locked-up 50 million
German-Americans.  That would have included Gen. Eisenhower (he
was 2nd generation) and Gen. Smith (who was first generation and
his grandfather was a Prussian general).  Both Eisenhower and
Smith hated the Nazis.  If German-Americans were locked up, the
first to go should be the most recent immigrants which would
include Albert Einstein.

I am not aware of a single German-American who worked as a
German spy (Charles Lindberg doesn't count since he was
Norweijan ;-).  There were indeed Nazi agents landed on the East
Coast, but they were not German-Americans.  There were, sadly,
some Japanese-Americans who worked as spys.  And Tokyo Rose was
an American citizen.  This doesn't justify internment but it's
important to keep in mind both the logistics of interning people
as well as the national mood.

>It is easy to condemn the treatment of Japanese Americans, but
>recall that in the winter of 1941-42 there seemed no reason to
>believe that California was safe from invasion, and not much
>reason to think that an indigenous Japanese-American population
>would not rally to the "Four Corners of the World Under One
>Roof" program of Japanese imperialism.
>
>Since we won the war, it is easy to overlook the fact that for
six months
>we were very decisively losing it.

My mother can recall asking her mother early in the war if
we were losing.  My grandmother said "Yes, we are losing."
It was a frightening time.

I'll send another post soon.

Chuck McCormick
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 12 Mar 1994 16:53:16 -0500
From:    Max Calderwood <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: Last "Kelly" Helmet

Gang,

The World War 1 style of "soupbowl" helmet was used up to the start of
WW2, as Im sure you all know, until the "pot" came into general issue.

My question is....what was the official designation for this last issue
of "kelly" helmet.  Was it M1940?  Or was it M1935 or something
different..???

Any helmet experts out there?

Max C. Calderwood
University of Southern Maine
Gorham, ME
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 12 Mar 1994 19:14:38 EST
From:    Robert E George <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: QUEST: Explain USA Officer Ranks

>
> >
> > I think the rank of "Field Marshal" has a certain aura of panache and class
. As
> > I have not personally served before, could a current or retired officer of
any
> > branch of our Armed Forces explain why America never created the rank of Fi
eld
> > Marshal?
>
> 1) It sounds to "european".
>
> 2) It has political connotations which make Americans uncomfortable.
>

     What are they??

     Regards,
     Rob

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 12 Mar 1994 16:32:27 -0800
From:    "Office TH325, Extension 3566" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Nisei Detention Camps ... and the alternatives

Chuck McCormick wrote:
>
>I have a few things to add to this episode and rather than send
>off one large post I'll do this in parts.  This one is mostly a
>comment on German Americans (since I am one).
>

I'm also Swiss/German American, so I would also like to make some
comments.

[Parts deleted here to save space}

>I am not aware of a single German-American who worked as a
>German spy (Charles Lindberg doesn't count since he was
>Norweijan ;-).  There were indeed Nazi agents landed on the East
>Coast, but they were not German-Americans.  There were, sadly,
>some Japanese-Americans who worked as spys.  And Tokyo Rose was
>an American citizen.  This doesn't justify internment but it's
>important to keep in mind both the logistics of interning people
>as well as the national mood.
>
I suppose we can argue what it means to be a German-American, but two of
those German agents landed on the East Coast were naturalized American
citizens.  Ernest Burger, member of the Michigan National Guard, was one
and George Dasch was another.  I don't know if becoming a citizen was
part of the "master spy plan" or not.

Max Stephan, a naturalized cititzen was sentenced to death for helping
escaping German POWs from Canada.  It was later commuted to life.

Anthony Cramer, a naturalized citizen met with the east coast saboteurs
and was convicted of treason but it was overturned by the Supreme Court.

Hans Max Haupt, a naturalized citizen and father of one of the the
agents mentioned above was convicted of treason.  He had sheltered his
son for six days, helped him buy a car and tried to get him a job
building the Norden Bombsight.

Source:  World War II America at War 1941-1945

John Riegsecker
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 12 Mar 1994 21:23:58 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: QUEST: Explain USA Officer Ranks

> > 1) It sounds to "european".
> >
> > 2) It has political connotations which make Americans uncomfortable.
> >
>
>
>      What are they??

1) It has an excess of grandiosity, which is historically out of place in
the U.S. military.

2) It harkens back to Napoleonic and other traditions, which are at odds with
the myth of the citizen soldier.

3) It also has too much of the air of the French and British conduct of WWI,
ie. the mass slaughter and the obliviousness of the military and political
structure to the carnage.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 12 Mar 1994 21:27:00 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Nisei Detention Camps ... and the alternatives

> Coast, but they were not German-Americans.  There were, sadly,
> some Japanese-Americans who worked as spys.  And Tokyo Rose was
> an American citizen.  This doesn't justify internment but it's

Who were they, and where were they?

You are aware that Ezra Pound was ALSO a U.S. citizen...?

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End of WWII-L Digest - 11 Mar 1994 to 12 Mar 1994
*************************************************