Subject: WWII-L Digest - 13 Mar 1994 to 14 Mar 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 1994 00:00:10 -0500

There are 97 messages totalling 3265 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. HOME: Re: Rosey The Riveter (4)
  2. MEDIA: "Rosey The Riveter"
  3. Von Paulus: General or Field Marshall? (3)
  4. Military disrespect OR Academic freedom
  5. QUEST: Explain USA Officer Ranks (4)
  6. INF: USAAF 14 MAR 44
  7. HOME: Detention centers vs. Concentration camps (2)
  8. Rosie the Riveter
  9. 8 Dec '41: Any "NO" Votes For War? (9)
 10. HOME:  Shintoism
 11. swastikas on book covers and decals (2)
 12. INF: Flying Tigers Turn 51
 13. N. AMERICAN AEROBATIC TEAM SCHEDULES
 14. AIRSHOWS IN NE USA
 15. Military Disrespect For the President (2)
 16. Poland Defeated The Red Army! (2)
 17. Should We Cancel The Draft? (2)
 18. WWII in film, etc.
 19. Where can I find electronic maps? (especially of WWII)
 20. Bombing Of Coventry, UK's Response (4)
 21. FDR: Did He Know He Won Before Dying?
 22. Swastika decals, etc. (2)
 23. test
 24. rosie
 25. Hitler's family, Hitler's Money ???
 26. WWI in film (3)
 27. VOTE AGAINST WWII (6)
 28. Political
 29. movies (8)
 30. TOPIC ELSEWHERE:  Military disrespect OR Academic freedom
 31. Re[2]: Bombing Of Coventry, UK's Response (4)
 32. Re[2]: Nisei Detention Camps ... and the alternatives
 33. Soviet Armored Trains:  Book AND MODELS
 34. Removing swastikas (2)
 35. ELECTRONIC MAPS
 36. MOVIES
 37. H-NET and this list; we may start our own later
 38. Maps (2)
 39. German POW's in Russia
 40. Amarillo WWII Comemmorative Activities
 41. WANT: PBY Catalina graphic
 42. Greetings
 43. Reinstating the Draft
 44. ADMIN: WWII-L Closing on 18 March. (2)
 45. INF: Alternative forums...
 46. VMI Alumni
 47. Unsubscribe WWII-L (Bye Folks)
 48. ADMIN: How to unsub...
 49. GEN: model decals
 50. Re[2]: U-Boats In USA Waters??
 51. ADMIN: Where are you?
 52. ADMIN: Where is anybody please!

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Date:    Sun, 13 Mar 1994 23:29:48 -0500
From:    Stan Koper <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HOME: Re: Rosey The Riveter

Sidney Kitchel said:

>         My mother was a Rosy at the Douglas bomber plant in Tulsa. She
> worked first as a mechanic and then as an inspector. Don't be fooled
> into thinking that everything was all happy and ERAish about women's
> employment. They had trouble with acceptance by male employees and by
> discimination by bosses. My mother became an inspector after a
> dispute with Douglas. She like many other women were carrying a full
> load but not being credited for doing so. She was performing all the
> duties of an "A mechanic", but only being paid as a "B". In fact, no
> woman during the war ever was recognized as an "A" at the plant. My
> mother finally had had enough and said either pay me for what I'm
> doing or I'll quit. Douglas never gave in, but my mother did not quit
> because of the war needs. Rather, she became an inspector -- a job
> in which women often could perform better than men.
>

I believe it was GE in Schenectady, NY, that took a "hit" after
the war because they had established a two-track pay setup, one
for men and another, lower for women--although the work was the
same.  Some women filed suit, and after a number of years, they
won.

Stan Koper
[email-masked]

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Date:    Sun, 13 Mar 1994 23:33:04 -0500
From:    Stan Koper <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: "Rosey The Riveter"

> Chuck,
>
> >This post concerns the Home Front. As a junior high school child, I distinctly
> >recall our history teacher (a male, BTW) showing us a war film called "Rosey Th
> e
> >Riveter." (or something like that).
>
>
>         I definitely remember "Rosey The Riveter" from about 1981-82 time period
> .
> I didn't see the movie, but remember my girlfriend going to see it at the theatr
> e
> here at uni. I'll see if I can dig up something about it, from my movie guide.
>
>
> Wilber
>

Are you sure you aren't thinking of a commercial film called
"Swing Shift", with Goldie Hawn?

Stan Koper
[email-masked]

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------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 13 Mar 1994 23:38:19 -0500
From:    Stan Koper <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Von Paulus: General or Field Marshall?

> Terry, you pointed out that Stalingrad prisoners were held for 13 years.
> This lead me back to a short speech I was asked to give last week
> regarding treatment of PW's in German camps; of course you can find much
> documentation on that, and (although considerably less) on German PW's in
> America, but what I've not stumbled upon is documentation regarding German
> PW's in Russian hands.  Suggestions?
>
> Andy Charrier
> Lakeville High School
>

You might find some information from memoirs, but I would
suggest looking at the works of novelist Theodor Plevier (sp?),
who wrote _Stalingrad_ _Moscow_, and _Berlin_, among other works.
He touches on the lives of individuals who were captured and
later returned to Germany.  I think Berlin carries up to the
riots of the 1950's.

Stan Koper
[email-masked]

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------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 13 Mar 1994 23:41:27 -0500
From:    Stan Koper <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Military disrespect OR Academic freedom

> WAIT a minute, Chuck!  You mean an Academy faculty member who
>   is a serving officer shouldn't be allowed to criticize our
>   (current) amoral/idiot President?
>
> What about academic freedom?
>

It's not a question of academic freedom when the speaker is a
serving officer.  The commander-in-chief is the
commander-in-chief, whatever else you may think of him, as a
civilian.

> What about (the increasing number of) civilian members of
>   academy faculties?  Because their paychecks are U.S. tax
>   dollars, would you deny their academic freedom also?

Presumably, they would have the right to criticize the President
publicly.  They are civilians, not serving members of the
military.

>
> Should faculty in state institutions be prohibited from
>   criticizing their state governments' decisions and policies,
>   in class or public?
>
> (ad absurdum ... )

It's not an ad absurdum situation.  Don't confuse military
officers with civilians.  There *IS* a difference, and one of
them is obedience to the chain of command.

>
> Or is it just leftwing/PC presidents, etc., who shouldn't be
>   criticized?

>  Lou Coatney

This is supposed to be WW-II, not politics or current events.

Stan Koper
[email-masked]

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------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 13 Mar 1994 23:48:38 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HOME: Re: Rosey The Riveter

It is interesting that the democracies like the US, Canada, and Britain
as well as the Soviet Union, employed very large numbers of women in
munitions production, yet Nazi Germany did not.
Adolph Hitler had some kind of fixed idea that womenfolk should be
kept in cooking and childbirth activities, even during a world war.
It was only after AH's declaration of waging "total war", in early 1943,
that German females began to be employed in war industries.  Mind you,
all along germany had no inhibitions against importing millions of
foreign women as virtual slave-laborers in munitions plants.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 10:38:37 CET
From:    "LTC Donnell, Doug" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: QUEST: Explain USA Officer Ranks

Hi Chuck and all,

Scanning through the messages this morning it looks like most of your
questions regarding officer ranks have been answered, but I thought I'd
add a little that might clear up a few loose ends.

First, one thing that's important to know is that each service has
different personnel policies and handles their training, assignments,
career progression, etc differently.  Things such as pay scales are
set by law and do not differ among the services, but, for example,
organization of the medical establishment differs considerably.
Recognizing this, congress passed a law some years back called the
Defense Officer Policy and Management Act (DOPMA) [I think that's
what the acronym stands for -- like so many things in the military,
we use the acronym to the point where we forget what it originally
stood for].  Anyway, the purpose of DOPMA was to more or less
standardize officer management policies among the services, so that
someone in the AF, for example, could expect to get promoted at
roughly the same time in service as someone in the Army.

BTW is was DOPMA that brought back the Commodore rank.  The other
services were none to happy with the Navy policy of making all of
their 1 star general equivalents, 2 star admirals.  Thus, in any
joint duty situation, the navy came out ahead at the general officer
level.  As some else posted, that situation has been resolved and
commodore is once again a rank for the history books.

In the AF, most officers are "line" officers, meaning they're all lumped
together for promotion purposes.  We do have a number of non-line
career tracks, such as the Medics, bio-medical, chaplains, and JAG.
These folks compete for promotion within their own groups.   Thus,
medics do not compete with pilots for promotion.

Certain officers are direct commissioned at a grade higher than the
normal entry level (2nd Lt).  Doctors and chaplains normally come in
as captains.  Certain medical specialists can come on active duty as
higher ranks (Maj or higher), depending on their level of training.
JAGs (lawyers) used to be commissioned as capts, but current policy
has them coming in as 1st Lts.

Doctors coming on active duty in the AF go to a short training course
in San Antonio before being assigned to their first military hospital.
The course is designed to teach the basics of "officership" -- how
to wear the uniform, military customs and courtesies, structure, etc.
Most line officers have a few doctor stories (some of which are even
true) relating to the sometimes non-military demeanor of certain medics.

Regarding sidearms, I know that officers (at least in the AF) are
required to be qualified (for certain duty assignments) in the use of
the sidearm (.38 cal pistol or 9mm handgun), and are not normally
trained in the care and feeding of the M-16.  (I always had to con
our training NCO into getting an M-16 slot for me at the range).

One story I heard (and this is TOTALLY unconfirmed, but makes for a
good story) about why officers carry handguns, relates to the days of
yore when the officers would ride up and down the ranks to rally the
troops.  They carried sidearms to shoot anyone who broke ranks and
tried to run.  As I said, don't know if it's true but . . .

Hope this helped answer your questions.  I now return you to WWII.

                        Doug Donnell

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 06:48:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USAAF 14 MAR 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
TUESDAY, 14 MARCH 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  F-6, North American Mustang
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 90+ P-51s, A-36s, and P-40s, along
with 3 B-25s, hit Japanese troops, bridges, dumps, and villages in the
Mogaung Valley.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 20 Japanese bombers hit airfields
at Hengyang and Suichwan; surprise prevents effective interception by AAF
fighters.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 12th Tactical Reconnaissance
Squadron, 67th Tactical Reconnaissance Group, moves from Chilbolton to Middle
Wallop, England with F-6s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-26s bomb Prenestina
marshalling yard and nearby chemical plant; B-25s strike Terni and Orte
marshalling yards, causing considerable damage, while A-20s attack tank
repair facilities unsuccessfully; P-40s attack guns in the Anzio beachhead
area and also hit a supply dump; and A-36s and P-47s hit railway stations and
the town of Ortia.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-25s from Engebi Island,
Eniwetok Atoll bomb Kusaie Island. B-25s from Tarawa Atoll hit Wotje Atoll.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 22
P-40s and P-39s hit Wunapope; 23 B-24s, with US Navy (USN) fighter cover,
bomb the N waterfront area of Simpson Harbor; and 22 B-25s, with USN fighter
escort, bomb the E section of town of Rabaul. P-39s, P-38s, P-40s, and USN
fighters hit barges and other targets of opportunity around the coast of
Bougainville Island and along the NE coast of New Ireland Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 80+ B-24s,
B-25s, and A-20s, supported by Allied fighters, pound the Wewak area; 17
other B-24s bomb the airfield at Tadji; and 8 A-20s carry out a sweep over
the Madang area while 12 bomb the airstrip at Alexishafen.
  HQ 8th Fighter Group and 35th and 36th Fighter Squadrons move from Cape
Gloucester, New Britain Island to Nadzab, New Guinea with P-40s and P-47s
respectively.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 07:10:38 -0500
From:    Daniel Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HOME: Detention centers vs. Concentration camps

> >
> >      If you had to choose between being sent to a detention
> > /internment center or a concentration camp, which would you
> > choose?
>
> Would you rather be shot with a machinegun or an automatic weapon?
>

Oh, horseplop. If you are still yammering about internment of Japanese
civilians in the US in WWII, what percentage of them died in internment,
and how many of those died from starvation or maltreatment?

For the record, 27 percent of Anglo-American prisoners in Japanese camps
died. For Americans, the death rate was considerably higher. (Canadians,
BTW, fared the best.)

Comparing the internment of Japanese civilians with German concentration
(better: extermination) camps is an insult to every Jew, Gipsy, homosexual,
or anti-Nazi who died in those abominations.

Regards -

Dan Ford      <e-mail: [email-masked]>

              <postal: 433 Bay Road, Durham NH 03824 USA>
              <voice or fax: +1-603-868-5850>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 07:33:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Rosie the Riveter

I was a kid during WWII and one thing I remember was my mother's attitude
towards women working at the Eastern Aircraft plant in West Trenton, NJ.
Eastern Aircraft, a division of General Motors, made TBM Avengers at the W.
Trenton plant.  I remember overhearing my mother talking to another women
about the alleged "activities" at the plant.  For alleged activities read
SEX!  So in addition to trying to fit into a male world, these women also
had to overcome ridiculous stories about sexual escapades during working
hours at least at this one plant.

One other thing you should remember.  Prior to WWII, most if not all
aircraft built in the US were hand-built one at a time and the men who worked
on them considered themselves craftsmen.  Along comes the war and mass
production and I am sure these guys took a real hit to the ego when they
saw that airplanes could be mass produced and BY WOMEN!

The movie SWING SHIFT with Goldie Hawn and Kurt Russel, released in 1984,
attempts to show this at a plant making SBDs.  You may want to take a look
at hit.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 08:04:03 EST
From:    Chuck Weckesser <[email-masked]>
Subject: 8 Dec '41: Any "NO" Votes For War?

When Congress declared war on Japan, did anyone vote no? I realize this is an
obscure question but I can't find the actual state-by-state roll call anywhere.

Did anyone vote "NO." I would be fascinated to know who and even why if anyone
knows.

Regards,

Chuck

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 08:13:20 -0500
From:    "W. C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <[email-masked]>
Subject: HOME:  Shintoism

In all this discussion so far, I have not seen anyone address
whether it should be considered 'threatening' if people worship,
as a diety, the political head of a country with which you are
at war?  Folks, in my humble opinion, this is certainly something
worth considering when one discusses how Japanese-Americans were
handled in WWII.

Also, in DECEMBER 7TH: THE MOVIE, there are statistics given about
Japanese Americans and how 50% of the babies born to Japanese-Americans
(on Hawaii only?) were registered as Japanese citizens as WELL as
having their American citizenship.  Two questions come to mind:

1) How was a 'Japanese-American' defined?  Were a significant number
of internees actually people with 'dual' citizenship?  Were these
people only first generation Japanese-Americans?

2) Did the US recognize 'dual citizenship' at this time?

Bill
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 14:04:24 MET
From:    Ireneusz Jakobik <[email-masked]>
Subject: swastikas on book covers and decals

Hi all,
Is it just PC thinking not to print swastikas on book covers and decals?
I've heard that German law banned swastikas and that some publishers
had problems with selling books with swastika on covers to Germany.
And about swastikas on decals for models... Hasegawa's Bf-109 models
contain decals with swastikas, but you won't note them on a box cover,
model photos and even on camouflage schemes!
Fujimi also prints decals with swastikas for its Ju-87, but unfortunately
I bought Ju-87 G with swastikas cut out of decal sheet. I guess it came
from German dealer. Other Ju-87 model kit I bought, D variant contained
all necessary decals.
Oh, I've almost forgotten. Signal/Squadron is not afraid to publish drawings
of German aircraft with swastikas on covers of its "In Action" series.
Irek.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 08:35:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: Flying Tigers Turn 51

The following is from the Air Force News Agency

146.  Flying Tigers turn 51
     VANDENBERG AFB, California (AFNS) -- Flying Tigers of yesterday and today
will gather at Vandenberg March 12 to celebrate the 51st anniversary of
the Fourteenth Air Force.
     Famed for painted aircraft noses with grinning mouths of sharks and
bloody tongues, the Flying Tigers trace their roots back to the battle for
Burma in 1941 and their first leader, a retired Army Air Force captain, Clair
L. Chennault.
     In March 1943, Chennault -- then a major general -- brought the Flying
Tigers nickname to the Fourteenth Air Force when it was activated in Kunming,
China.
     Since the end of World War II, the Fourteenth Air Force has served Air
Defense Command, Continental Air Command, the Air Force Reserve, Aerospace
Defense Command and now Air Force Space Command.  (Courtesy Fourteenth Air
Force public affairs)

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 08:52:23 EST
From:    Claire Culleton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HOME: Re: Rosey The Riveter

Chuck, I remember the Rosie the Riveter film--I saw it about six years ago.
It's a great compilation of interviews, oral histories, recordings, photos,
etc.  I've looked for a reference for you and can't find one this morning but
will keep trying.  The recent *Smithsonian* featured Rosie on the cover.

Women workers were treated just as terribly during WWI, and when demobilization
set in, some went mad, others fell into despair, etc.  In London, women marched
at the end of the war for the rights to keep their jobs.  *Out of the Cage* by
Braybon and Summerfield has two wonderful chapters on demob. after WW I and II.
I'll keep checking for the film info.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 08:20:17 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Von Paulus: General or Field Marshall?

Hello, Christopher!

Thanks for the note. I made one mistake last night in my post to
the list about GFM Paulus. He did commit suicide in 1957. I had
stated that he had died of natural causes, but it had been awhile
since I had read anything dealing with von Paulus particularly. He
was an absolutely tragic figure. Nothing he did was right, and his
luck after Stalingrad simply went downhill. At one point during his
career he was considered to be the top candidate to become Chief of
the German General Staff, but that was certainly not to be.

> > Terry, you pointed out that Stalingrad prisoners were held for 13 years.
> > This lead me back to a short speech I was asked to give last week
> > regarding treatment of PW's in German camps; of course you can find much
> > documentation on that, and (although considerably less) on German PW's in
> > America, but what I've not stumbled upon is documentation regarding German
> > PW's in Russian hands.  Suggestions?

    You are correct in all the above. I, too, have been preoccupied
with finding out something about the treatment of Germans at the
hands of the Russians. All I have seen in print are German sources. I
do have one, but it is in German. The entire problem is discussed in
detail and it makes fascinating reading to say the least, but, alas,
it is all in German.

    When I corresponded with Genlt. Artur Schmidt, I secured his
permission to ask him a series of specific questions relating to this
topic of POW's in Russian camps, and he did answer my questions
regarding his treatment and the reason why so many Germans died in
Russian captivity. Although a general, he spent those 13 years in a
POW camp. He, for his part, was treated rather well, considering the
circumstances, but the enlisted ranks and other officer ranks below
the rank of colonel, he said, "died like flies", because they had 1)
given up all hope of ever seeing the homeland again, 2) Russian food
rations were poor, 3) they were put to work with those meager rations
and slowly starved to death, 4) those who could adapt themselves to
the living conditions survived, those who couldn't died, 5) the
Russians regarded the German POW's as war booty and were considered
"reparations" to help rebuild the SU.

> Try looking for Italian sources.  I believe there have been several books
> and films regarding Italian POWs in Russia.

    Also, Alexander Werth's book "Russia at War" says a a little
about German POW's, but not much. There is a book I have, and the
title and author escape me momentarily which deals with the account
of the Stalingrad battle. I think it is "The Gates of Stalingrad" by
Gordon Craig. I realize that this is a really big help, but I
know
I have it and I read some years ago. I can check it out for you, and
will.

Thanks again for writing.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 15:18:00 CET
From:    "LTC Donnell, Doug" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: swastikas on book covers and decals

German law prohibits the public displayof swastikas and the law is
strictly enforced.  Even at flea markets where old medals, decorations,
etc are traded, the swastika is normally taped over.
                        Doug Donnell

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 08:31:00 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: QUEST: Explain USA Officer Ranks

Hello, again, Christopher!

I would like to add my two cents' worth to this. Most of what has
been said is correct. I want to add a comment or two to this.

> > I think the rank of "Field Marshal" has a certain aura of panache and class. A
> s
> > I have not personally served before, could a current or retired officer of any
> > branch of our Armed Forces explain why America never created the rank of Field
> > Marshal?

> 1) It sounds to "european".
>
> 2) It has political connotations which make Americans uncomfortable.

    All correct. Not only that, but it had come to be associated too
much with militarism, and this country did not want to continue that
tradition or perpetuate that connotation in a free society.

> > In our Army, is Colonel-General (five stars) the highest rank? How many five
> > star Generals do we still have? Also, when the President appoints a new JCS,
> > does that person automatically receive an additional star? I would appreciate
> it
> > if someone could list the different ranks of Generals we have and how many sta
> rs
> > each rank has.
>
> The U.S. Army doesn't have "colonel-generals".  That's a German/Soviet/etc.
> title.  I believe that five star general is "General of the Army".  I also seem
> to recall George Washington having been made a SIX star general to ensure that
> he was the highest ranking U.S. officer in history.

    All correct. General Pershing was considered to be this nation's
only 6-star officer being given the title "General of the Armies"
although he never wore 6 stars.

    Also, one thing that has not been pointed out. A serving 5-star
officer cannot retire in the true sense of the word. A FM in Germany
or England could not retire. They were considered to be permanently on
active duty whether they held a command or not.

   Thanks, Christopher.

   Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 09:31:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: N. AMERICAN AEROBATIC TEAM SCHEDULES

          NORTH AMERICAN MILITARY AEROBATIC TEAM SCHEDULE, 1994
                           ISSUE 4, 14 MAR 94

REASON FOR REISSUE
1. The Miami, Florida show scheduled for 5-6 Nov has been cancelled
according to Mark Hornacek in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida.

The following is the combined schedules for the North American military
aerobatic teams for the 1994 show season and includes schedules for shows
in:

  Canada
  Japan
  Korea
  Malaysia
  Singapore
  Thailand
  United States

This list is sorted by country and Province and State.  The three teams
covered in this post are:

  Canadian Armed Forces Snowbirds
  U.S. Air Force Thunderbirds
  U.S. Navy Blue Angels

Any additions, corrections, etc. would be appreciated.  Please e-mail them
to me at [email-masked].

I. CANADA
---------

ALBERTA
-------
Edmonton: Snowbirds, 21-22 May
Peace River: Snowbirds, 26 Jul
Slave Lake: Snowbirds, 10 May

BRITISH COLUMBIA
----------------
Abbotsford: Snowbirds, 12-14 Aug and Blue Angels, 13-14 Aug
Comox: Snowbirds, 7 Aug
Fort Nelson: Snowbirds, 12 May
Kelowna: Snowbirds, 18 May
Penticton: Snowbirds, 28 Jul
Prince George: Snowbirds, 14-15 May
Sandspit: Snowbirds, 5 May
Terrace: Snowbirds, 3 May
Vanderhoff: Snowbirds, 23-24 Jul
Victoria: Snowbirds, 17 Aug

MANITOBA
--------
Grand Beach: Snowbirds, 8 Jul
St Andrews (Winnipeg): Snowbirds, 30-31 Jul

NEW BRUNSWICK
-------------
Chatham: Snowbirds, 28 May
Shediac: Snowbirds, 24 Aug

NORTHWEST TERRITORY
-------------------
CFS Yellowknife: Snowbirds, 1 May

NOVA SCOTIA
-----------
Greenwood: Snowbirds, 29 May
Shearwater: Snowbirds, 17-18 Sep

ONTARIO
-------
Cobden: Snowbirds, 31 May
Hamilton: Snowbirds, 18-19 Jun
London: Snowbirds, 4-5 Jun
Ottawa: Snowbirds, 2-3 Jul
Parry Sound: Snowbirds, 28 Jun
Toronto: Snowbirds, 3-5 Sep
Trenton: Snowbirds, 25-26 Jun

QUEBEC
------
Bagotville: Snowbirds, 11-12 Jun
Gaspe: Snowbirds, 7 Sep
Montmagny: Snowbirds, 15 Jun
Rimouski: Snowbirds, 9 Jun
St George De Beauce: Snowbirds, 5 Jul
St Jean: Snowbirds, 20 Aug
Sept-Iles: Snowbirds, 30 Aug
Sherbrooke: Snowbirds, 21 Aug
Thetford Mines: Snowbirds, 6 Jul
Val D'Or: Snowbirds, 7 Jun

SASKATCHEWAN
------------
Moose Jaw: Snowbirds, 29 Apr, 9-10 Jul and 14 Oct

YUKON TERRITORY
---------------
Whitehorse: Snowbirds, 8 May

II. JAPAN
---------
Kadena AB (Okinawa): Thunderbirds, 14 Aug
Misawa: Thunderbirds, 10 Aug

III. KOREA
----------
Osan AB: Thunderbirds, 13 Aug

IV. MALAYSIA
------------
??: Thunderbirds, 20 Aug

V. SINGAPORE
------------
??: Thunderbirds, 23 Aug

VI. THAILAND
------------
??: Thunderbirds, 18 Aug

VII. UNITED STATES
------------------

ALASKA
------
Elmendorf AFB: Thunderbirds 6 Aug

ARIZONA
-------
Glendale: Thunderbirds, 5-6 Nov
Luke AFB: Blue Angels, 16 Apr
Mesa: Thunderbirds, 19-20 Mar

ARKANSAS
--------
Little Rock AFB: Blue Angels, 26-27 Mar
Little Rock: Snowbirds, 28 Sep

CALIFORNIA
----------
Castle AFB: Thunderbirds, 9 Oct
Miramar: Blue Angels, 19-21 Aug
MCAS El Toro: Blue Angels, 29 Apr-1 May
NAF El Centro: Blue Angels, 12 Mar
NAS Lemoore: Thunderbirds, 14-15 May
Redding: Thunderbirds, 25-26 Jun
Salinas: Blue Angels, 15-16 Oct
San Francisco: Blue Angels, 8-9 Oct
Travis AFB: Thunderbirds, 8 Oct

COLORADO
--------
Air Force Academy, Colorado Springs: Thunderbirds, 1 Jun
Broomfield: Thunderbirds, 30-31 Jul

DELAWARE
--------
Dover AFB: Thunderbirds, 7-8 May

FLORIDA
-------
Kissimmee: Snowbirds, 8-9 Oct
MacDill AFB: Thunderbirds, 22-27 Mar
NAS Jacksonville: Blue Angels, 24-25 Sep
NAS Pensacola: Blue Angels, 11-12 Nov
Pensacola Beach: Blue Angels, 16 Jul
Punta Gorda: Blue Angels, 9-10 Apr
Sanford: Thunderbirds, 29-30 Oct
Tyndall AFB: Thunderbirds, 16 Apr

GEORGIA
-------
NAS Atlanta: Blue Angels, 1-2 Oct
Robins AFB: Thunderbirds, 22-23 Oct

HAWAII
------
NAS Barbers Point: Thunderbirds, 27 Aug

IDAHO
-----
Lewiston: Snowbirds, 21 Jul

ILLINOIS
--------
Chicago: Blue Angels, 27-28 Aug
Springfield: Blue Angels, 30-31 Jul

IOWA
----
Davenport: Blue Angels, 25-26 Jun
Dubuque: Snowbirds, 21 Sep

KANSAS
------
McConnell AFB: Blue Angels, 18-19 Jun

KENTUCKY
--------
Bowling Green: Thunderbirds, 24-25 Sep

LOUISIANA
---------
Barksdale AFB: Thunderbirds, 17 Apr
Lake Charles: Thunderbirds, 12-13 Nov
NAS New Orleans: Blue Angels, 29-30 Oct

MARYLAND
--------
Andrews AFB: Blue Angels, 20-21 May
U.S. Naval Academy, Annapolis: Blue Angels, 23-25 May

MASSACHUSETTS
-------------
NAS South Weymouth: Thunderbirds, 11-12 Jun
Westover AFB: Snowbirds, 27-28 Aug

MICHIGAN
--------
Battle Creek: Thunderbirds, 4 Jul
K.I. Sawyer AFB: Thunderbirds, 2 Jul
Selfridge ANGB: Blue Angels, 11-12 Jun
Traverse City: Blue Angels, 2-3 Jul

MISSOURI
--------
St Louis: Snowbirds, 24-25 Sep

NEVADA
------
Nellis AFB: Thunderbirds, 20 Nov

NEW MEXICO
----------
Roswell: Blue Angels, 7-8 May

NEW YORK
--------
Scotia: Thunderbirds, 10-11 Sep

NORTH CAROLINA
--------------
Wilmington: Thunderbirds, 9-10 Apr

NORTH DAKOTA
------------
Minot: Blue Angels, 23-24 Jul

OHIO
----
Cleveland: Blue Angels, 3-5 Sep
Dayton: Thunderbirds, 23-24 Jul

OKLAHOMA
--------
Muskogee: Thunderbirds, 1-2 Oct
Oklahoma City: Snowbirds, 16-17 Jul

OREGON
------
Portland: Thunderbirds, 16-17 Jul

PENNSYLVANIA
------------
Avoca: Thunderbirds, 28-29 May
Latrobe: Thunderbirds, 3-4 Sep
NAS Willow Grove: Thunderbirds, 18-19 Jun

SOUTH CAROLINA
--------------
Florence: Snowbirds, 5 Oct
MCAS Beaufort: Blue Angels, 23-24 Apr
McEntire ANGB: Thunderbirds, 1 May
Myrtle Beach: Thunderbirds, 5 Jun
Shaw AFB: Thunderbirds, 30 Apr

TENNESSEE
---------
Chattanooga: Blue Angels, 28-29 May
NAS Memphis: Blue Angels, 10-11 Sep

TEXAS
-----
Dyess AFB: Blue Angels, 19 Mar
El Paso: Snowbirds, 1-2 Oct
Ft. Worth: Blue Angels, 22-23 Oct
Goodfellow AFB: Thunderbirds, 22 May
Houston: Thunderbirds, 15-16 Oct
Kelly AFB: Thunderbirds, 21 May
Laughlin AFB: Thunderbirds, 18 Sep
NAS Corpus Christi: Blue Angels, 14-15 May
Sheppard AFB: Thunderbirds, 17 Sep

VERMONT
-------
Burlington: Blue Angels, 17-18 Sep

VIRGINIA
--------
NAS Norfolk: Thunderbirds, 23-24 Apr
NAS Oceana: Snowbirds, 10-11 Sep

WASHINGTON
----------
Seattle: Blue Angels, 6-7 Aug and Snowbirds, 6 Aug

WEST VIRGINIA
-------------
Huntington: Blue Angels, 4-5 Jun

WISCONSIN
---------
Eau Claire: Blue Angels, 9-10 Jul

WYOMING
-------
F.E. Warren AFB: Thunderbirds, 27 Jul

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 09:32:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: AIRSHOWS IN NE USA

           AIRSHOWS IN THE NORTHEASTERN UNITED STATES, 1994
                       ISSUE 2, 14 MAR 94

This is the latest list of airshows in the Northeastern U.S. that I have
been able to compose.  The list is sorted by state and any military aerobatic
team appearing is noted.  Also noted is any known telephone numbers; please
call the telephone number listed for further information. I will gladly
update this list with any additions, changes and/or deletions.  Just e-mail
me at [email-masked]

REASON FOR REISSUE
------------------
1. Change the location of the 1941 Wings Of Eagles Airshow from Geneseo to
   Batavia, New York; the dates remain the same.

CONNECTICUT
-----------
Meriden: Aug 28, 14th Annual Police Union Airshow, Meriden Markham MAP

DELAWARE
--------
Dover: May 7-8, Dover AFB Airshow '94, featuring USAF Thunderbirds,
  (302) 677-3281
New Castle: Oct 8-9, EAA East Coast Fly-In, Greater Wilmington Arpt

DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
--------------------
May 19-21, Joint Services Open House/Kodak Balloon Race, featuring the USN
  Blue Angels, (904) 223-4362

MAINE
-----
Bingham: Sep 24-25, 25th Gadabout Gaddis Fly-In, (207) 672-4135 or
  (207) 672-3978

MARYLAND
--------
Andrews AFB: May 20-21, Open House, featuring the USN Blue Angels,
  (301) 981-4511
College Park: Sep 17-18, College Park Air Fair
Middle River: Sep 17-18, Chesapeake Airshow
Ocean City: Sep 23-26, Gathering of Heroes

MASSACHUSETTS
-------------
NAS South Weymouth: Jun 11-12,  Air Expo '94 featuring the USAF Thunderbirds,
  (617) 786-2875
Westover AFB: Aug 27-28, Great New England Air Show, (413) 557-3587

NEW HAMPSHIRE
-------------
Concord: Jun 25-26, International Air Festival, 603) 225-8747
Portsmouth: Jul 23-24, New England Escadrille Warbird Airshow

NEW JERSEY
----------
Millville: Jun 11-12, Millville Army Airfield
Pittstown: Aug 5-7, Magic of Alexandria
Sussex: Aug 26-28, Sussex Airshow

NEW YORK
--------
Batavia: Aug 20-21, 1941 Wings Of Eagles Airshow, (716) 243-0690
Elmira: Jul 2-3, New York State Internation Air Show/Air Fest, (607) 732-9898
Fulton: Jul 9-10, Central New York International Air Show
Monticello: Aug 6-7, Air-O-Dynamics, Air Expo & Show, (914) 794-2212
Plattsburgh: Jul 9, Clinton County Airshow
Poughkeepsie: May 13-15, Great Hudson Valley Balloon Race, 914) 462-2600
Poughkeepsie: Oct 1-2, Autumn Warbird Fly-In, (914) 462-2600
Schenectady: Sep 10-11, Schenectady Airshow "Empire State Heroscience
  Museum" featuring the USAF Thunderbirds, (518) 377-2191

PENNSYLVANIA
------------
Allentown: Sep 17, Queen City Airport Day
Avoca: May 28-29, Wilkes Barre/Scranton International Airshow, featuring USAF
  Thunderbirds, (717)-655-3077
Erie: Jul 16-17, Erie International Airshow, 814) 833-7343
Franklin: Jun 25-26, Wings Over Venango
Latrobe: Sep 3-4, Westmoreland County Airshow featuring the USAF
  Thunderbirds, (412) 539-8100
Meadville: Sep 17-18, Meadville Air Expo
NAS Willow Grove: Jun 18-19, Sounds of Freedom, featuring the USAF
  Thunderbirds, (215) 443-6035
Philadelphia: Jul 1-6, Confederate Air Force
Quakertown: Jun 3-5, Bucks County Balloon & Air Festival, 215) 997-9519
Toughkenamon: Jun 11-12, New Garden Airshow
Williamsport: Jun 25-26, Lycoming County Airshow

RHODE ISLAND
------------
North Kingstown: Jun 4-5, Rhode Island National Guard Open House
  (401) 886-1423

VERMONT
-------
Burlington: Sep 17-18, Burlington International Charity Airshow
  featuring the USN Blue Angels, (802) 496-3473

VIRGINIA
--------
Langley AFB: Aug 6, IFW Community Appreciation Day
Manassas: Sep 17-18, Manassas Air Show Classic '94, (703) 361-0575
NAS Norfolk: Apr 23-24, International Azalea Festival featuring USAF
  Thunderbirds, (804) 445-4774
NAS Oceana: Sep 10-11, Open House featuring the CAF Snowbirds,
  (804) 433-3131
Norfolk: Jun 4-5, Harborfest

WEST VIRGINIA
-------------
Beckley: Aug 6-7
Charleston: Sep 10-11, Wings Over Charleston
Huntington: Jun 4-5, Tri-State Anti Drug Airshow featuring USN Blue Angels

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 09:04:40 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HOME: Detention centers vs. Concentration camps

>
> > >
> > >      If you had to choose between being sent to a detention
> > > /internment center or a concentration camp, which would you
> > > choose?
> >
> > Would you rather be shot with a machinegun or an automatic weapon?
> >
>
> Oh, horseplop. If you are still yammering about internment of Japanese
> civilians in the US in WWII, what percentage of them died in internment,
> and how many of those died from starvation or maltreatment?

The Japanese Americans were imprisoned in CONCENTRATION CAMPS.

If you want to ask an HONEST question, ask if you'd rather be in Manzanar or
Dachau.

Don't keep up this pretense that the former wasn't a concentration camp.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 08:35:48 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 8 Dec '41: Any "NO" Votes For War?

Hello, Chuck!

    Yes. One woman from Maine, I think. I used to know her name. She
also voted no in declaring war on Germany in WWI. She was a senator,
I believe.

    Chuck, I will be writing you about the pix.

    Terry

----------------------------------------------------------------------

> When Congress declared war on Japan, did anyone vote no? I realize this is an
> obscure question but I can't find the actual state-by-state roll call anywhere.
>
> Did anyone vote "NO." I would be fascinated to know who and even why if anyone
> knows.
>
> Regards,
>
> Chuck
>

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 06:36:45 PST
From:    "Jones, Scott T." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Military Disrespect For the President

     I am resisting the urge to respond to your electronic bovine
     excrement, Chuck, for the simple reason that this is a WWII list and
     not an arena in which to spew forth your political beliefs.

     I would, however, like to remind you that respect is EARNED and not
     GIVEN. The same is true for DISRESPECT.

     I would be more than happy to discuss this topic with you privately if
     you care to contact me.

     Until then...

     Scott Jones
     [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 08:51:39 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Poland Defeated The Red Army!

Hello, Chuck!

> The fact that the Poles defeated the Red Army is the real reason that Stalin
> murdered the Polish Officer Corps at Katyn. That's my opinion anyway. . .

    An interesting post. From what I have read of the murder of
14000+ Polish officers in three separate camps after the successful
occupation of their part of the country by Russia, the Russians
massacred these officers and intellectuals to cut off the head of any
potential resistance movement in the country either then or at a
later date. I think it was Stalin's ultimate task to absorb Poland
into Russian domination permanently, and the only way to do that was
to kill off the intelligentsia as rapidly as possible.

    However, I wouldn't overlook that possibility you mention.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 08:55:54 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Should We Cancel The Draft?

Hello, Chuck!

Yes, I think that Selective Service registration should be
maintained, because this world is still an unsafe place and there
will always be a need for military manpower. One can never tell what
lies over the hill and to dispense with the draft would be
shortsighted and irresponsible.

My opinion.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 10:00:56 EST
From:    Aldo <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WWII in film, etc.

On the subject of WWII films, has anyone any thougts on Hell is for
Heros with Steve McQueen, Tely, Bob Newhart and a ton of others--a
very dark & ugly film.

Aldo M. Hubert
                                           [email-masked]
University of North Carolina at Greensboro
800 Oakland Ave.
Greensboro NC 27412

Sic Friatur Crustum Dulce

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 09:53:02 EST
From:    Aldo <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Where can I find electronic maps? (especially of WWII)

Reguarding the below, please send a copy to the list;  I, for one,
would find the info usefull.

----------------------------------------------------------

Hi, I'm not a reader of this list, so please respond to me directly, not
to the list.

I'm about to begin teaching WWII to a high school class.  Does anyone
know where I can get electronic maps (gif, pcx, jpg, bmp formats) of WWII
Europe and Asia?  I'd like to get maps that illustrate Germany's
expansion, for example.
--

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
(carlos) Miguel Borges - [email-masked], [email-masked]

Aldo M. Hubert
                                           [email-masked]
University of North Carolina at Greensboro
800 Oakland Ave.
Greensboro NC 27412

Sic Friatur Crustum Dulce

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 10:01:35 EST
From:    Robert E George <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 8 Dec '41: Any "NO" Votes For War?

>
> When Congress declared war on Japan, did anyone vote no? I realize this is an
> obscure question but I can't find the actual state-by-state roll call anywher
e.
>
> Did anyone vote "NO." I would be fascinated to know who and even why if anyon
e
> knows.

Yes, Representative Rankin of [ ? ? a Western state, possibly Montana or
Wyoming?]

She had also voted against war in 1917.
> Regards,
> Chuck
Rob George

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 09:02:14 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Bombing Of Coventry, UK's Response

Hello, Chuck!

> The bombing of Dresden is well known. What is not well known is how badly
> Coventry was bombed. I read somewhere that Churchill was absolutely ballistic
> when the news of Coventry arrived.
>
> I've often wondered if the complete and total destruction of Dresden was a quid
> pro quo response for the destruction of Coventry.

    No. Dresden was bombed because, 1) it had become a refugee
center, and 2) as a city it had not been decisively bombed. There was
more of a reason to bomb Dresden than there was Coventry, in my
opinion. The Coventry raid was purely terroristic in nature. One view
I have read is that Coventry was allowed to be bombed to protect the
secret of "Enigma". The British had known that Coventry would be
bombed and had the English made appropriate countermeasures to ensure
the safety of the city, the Germans may have become wise to the fact
that the English had access to Enigma.

    My opinion.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 09:06:59 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: FDR: Did He Know He Won Before Dying?

Hello, Chuck!

Will try to answer your post.

> How tragic that fate cheated FDR of the official victory over Nazi Germany and
> Imperial Japan. I think he died on 12 April 1945 (his mistress was with him in
> Warm Springs by the way) while his portrait was painted. His last words were
> something like, "I have a terrible headache." He was only 63 or so.

    Perhaps, and yes to all the above.

> Truman was only a year or two younger yet he lived until 1972 or so (I can't
> remember if Johnson died first or Truman, as their deaths came within about a
> month of each other's).

   I think Johnson died first, but I could be mistaken.

> It's too bad that FDR did not live to hear that Hitler, in the ultimate act of
> selfish nihilism, killed himself (and by the way, I think he was a coward and
> did himself in with cyanide and not a bullet).

    No, but FDR knew that Hitler would lose. Make no mistake about
that.

> Did FDR receive daily military briefs like Stalin and Hitler? Did FDR personally
> conduct the war in anyway or did he leave the job up to War Department entirely
> (e.g. did he ever say, "I want Kiel or Dresden bombed on such and such a date")?

    Yes. Not in a dictatorial way. He was briefed on all military
operations and if it came to an impasse, as it did with MacArthur and
Nimitz in the final stages of the war in the Pacific, FDR had to make
the final decision as to which tack to take.

> Finally, I wonder if the party bosses knew in '44 that they had to dump Wallace
> because there was a good chance of FDR dying. I do know that the day *after*
> FDR's death Wallace went to the Oval Office and said to Truman: "I should be
> sitting in that chair."
>
> Truman said "Maybe so. But you aren't, and you won't for at least four years."
>
> Interesting tidbit. Wallace was a bit of a flake. Uncle Joe would have eaten him
> alive.

    Perhaps, but we will never know. Truman was by far and away the
man to deal with Molotov.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 10:08:30 EST
From:    Jorge Merino <[email-masked]>
Subject: Swastika decals, etc.

I'm also a modeller, ans I find it very stupid to eliminate the swastikas
from the decal sheets. I think, if the real plane did have tha swastika, why
not the model? If you want to have an accurate german WW-II model, you will
need to get swastikas from somewhere.

Fortunatelly, there are some companies that make swastikas in different sizes
and scales. One is Microscale, with 1/48 and 1/72 swastika decal sheets.

Hasegawa includes the swastikas in the decal sheets, but the swastika is not
printed on the box. The DML He-162 Salamander has swastikas in two diagonal
parts, so you have to put them together to make a complete swastika, however,
the box picture doesn't have swastikas. Fujimi includes the swastika in both
the decal sheet and the box drawing. Jo-han does the same. I have an old
Lindberg kit of the Ar-234B-2, and it has also swastikas in the decal sheet.
The MPM Me-262 bomber version kit has also swastika decals.

One interesting fact is that Hasegawa (I'm talking about my Fw-190A-8) has
printed the swastikas in a separate section of the decal sheet, so, anyone
who doesn't like the swastikas, may cut them away, and the rest of the sheet
will keep untouched.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 09:37:38 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: test

Hello, David!

I read you loud and clear.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 10:20:16 EST
From:    Bill Vasilion <[email-masked]>
Subject: rosie

          yes that is the documentary that I watched also.The high school
       I went to was one mile from the old Ford plant used in World War II
        to build airplane engines.....Later this was the plant used by
        Tucker to try to build his torpedo car....
         Now part of it has been converted into a shoping center called
        Ford city.......

           The goldie hawn movie was good in that he gave a little glimpse
     into what life was like on the assembly line.

         I am tired of reading about the japanense interment camps
     versus the Nazi concentration camps.....there is no comparison.
     The japanese could walk out ........they were not skin and bone.
      the women did not fight each other over soap in the shower..
     they did not get food the size of one's thumb.... to work on all day.
     they were not thrown in frozen water........and have naked women
      thrown on them to see if this would make them warmer.........

           read read....Ed murrows entry into buchenwald..........
       he broadcast about it... and it is on record....
       read all the other books on this and then see if you think
      what the japanese people went thru was so terrible.........
        remember we were at war.......we did not know the outcome.....
       the germans had the bund......

                       bill

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 09:40:38 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hitler's family, Hitler's Money ???

Hello, Emmanuel!

> Yet in his last will he demanded that the paintings that had been 'plundered'
> on his behalf would be put in a museum in Linz. I wonder how the
> collection of the Fuhrer compared to that of the Reichsmarschall...

Hitler's art collection was reputed to rank right along side that of
Hermann Goering's. Hitler was no slouch in trying to get his hands on
plundered art works.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 09:42:57 -0600
From:    Ann Shillinglaw <[email-masked]>
Subject: WWI in film

I wanted to drop a line re: Beau Geste -- as some have correctly noted,
its subject is not WWII.  But because it was released in 1939 (what month,
I don't know), it certainly had a strong effect on the imagination and
spirit of at least one young man who felt that going to war was going to
be the adventure of a lifetime ... like going off to join the French
Foreign Legion.  Fims, art, etc. inspiring participation in a war might
be as interesting to look at as depictions of the war.

Ann Shillinglaw
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 09:43:37 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Should We Cancel The Draft?

Hello, George!

 See below.

> Personally, I am in favor of reinstating the draft, and requiring one year of
> public service for everyone, which could be served in the military or in
> a whole list of public service activities.  I really favor everyone
> serving in the military, but I doubt if I could sell that, what with
> the gods which we worship in this day and age.
>
> But I believe doing away with the draft was a serious mistake, and I would
> be opposed to any further dismantling of the system.
>
> I could give a number of reasons for my position but will refrain as I
> suspect I am roughly a minority of one.

    I absolutely agree with you. The draft needs to be retained and I
have always thought it very shortsighted that the the draft was done
away with. Mandatory service either in the military or public domain
would reinstill the discipline somehow lost or eroded since the end
of the Vietnam War.

    Thanks.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 10:38:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: VOTE AGAINST WWII

There is one woman, I believe her name was Jeanette Rankin, a Representative
from Montana, who voted against declaring war on Japan in Dec 41.  She also
voted against WWI.  She ran for her seat again in the next election but the
voters rejected her.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 09:13:49 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 8 Dec '41: Any "NO" Votes For War?

>
> When Congress declared war on Japan, did anyone vote no? I realize this is an
> obscure question but I can't find the actual state-by-state roll call anywhere.
>
> Did anyone vote "NO." I would be fascinated to know who and even why if anyone
> knows.

Yes, Janine(sp) Rankine(sp).  An example of the triumph of principle over
reason.  She's lionized on National Public Radio periodically for her "stand".

I don't know if she's still alive or not.  If so, she'd probably be very old.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 10:10:43 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: QUEST: Explain USA Officer Ranks

> > 1) It sounds to "european".
> >
> > 2) It has political connotations which make Americans uncomfortable.
>
>     All correct. Not only that, but it had come to be associated too
> much with militarism, and this country did not want to continue that
> tradition or perpetuate that connotation in a free society.

Nor would I wish to be associated too closely with General Field Marshall Sir
Douglas Hague, the one of the century's greatest serial killers! (of the
British army) :)

>     Also, one thing that has not been pointed out. A serving 5-star
> officer cannot retire in the true sense of the word. A FM in Germany
> or England could not retire. They were considered to be permanently on
> active duty whether they held a command or not.

And interesting point, which I'd never heard.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 10:02:48 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 8 Dec '41: Any "NO" Votes For War?

Hello, Rob!

Thank you for that post. It jarred my memory a little and her name
was Jeanette Rankin.

Thanks.

Terry

> Yes, Representative Rankin of [ ? ? a Western state, possibly Montana or
> Wyoming?]
>
> She had also voted against war in 1917.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Chuck
> >
> Rob George
>

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 10:55:36 EST
From:    Bill Vasilion <[email-masked]>
Subject: Political

            Someone in the mistaken notion that keeping the naaazzzi
         (like churchill said it) would not continue any hate or
          glorification of war. Huh. IT does not erase what happened
          in the war years .......it does not stop anyone from learning
          what happened... it does not mean that all germans were
        nazis and that all nazis were of German ancestry.........
              It is a shame that it appears a very small group
        of political correct and  people who want to be fair
         are trying to make up for all the injustices of the world.
          It will not help..........  bill

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 11:23:32 -0500
From:    William Eldridge <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: VOTE AGAINST WWII

>From David Brinkley's book *Washington Goes To War* (New York: Knopf,
1988, p. 91):

     "Forty-eight minutes after the president arrived, the Senate declared
war, by a vote of 82 to 0. Thirty-two minutes later the House followed
with a vote of 388 to 1.
     The one was Representative Jeannette Rankin of Montana, who had also
voted (but not alone) against World War I. She cast her "no" vote and then
ran into an anteroom, closed herself inside a telephone booth, and sat
there crying. The police insisted that for her own safety they would have
to escort her across the street to her office. Her state reacted with a
burst of hury and telegrams poured in accusing her of "staining the honor
of Montana." It was the end of her career in Congress."

-- Bill Eldridge

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 11:24:09 -0500
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Poland Defeated The Red Army!

Terry Moore <[email-masked]> writes:

>     ... From what I have read of the murder of
> 14000+ Polish officers in three separate camps after the successful
> occupation of their part of the country by Russia, the Russians
> massacred these officers and intellectuals to cut off the head of any
> potential resistance movement in the country either then or at a
> later date. I think it was Stalin's ultimate task to absorb Poland
> into Russian domination permanently, and the only way to do that was
> to kill off the intelligentsia as rapidly as possible.

        Stalin succeeded quite well in that regard!  Russia still retains
the territory it annexed from Poland in 1939.  Present day Poland is made
up of that portion annexed by the Germans in 1939, (most of) East Prussia
(Gdansk was Danzig), and chunks of what had been eastern Germany (I can't
name the regions, though).
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
When we go into battle, we like to play music.
Loud music.  We find that it calms us...

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 08:34:13 PST
From:    Alan Hepburn <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Military Disrespect For the President

Chuck Weckesser wrote:

"I even wrote a terse note to Colin Powell within a month of Clinton
becoming the President because I was appalled at the blatant disrespect.
I need not remind many of you that our *best* war leader, FDR, did NOT
serve even though he was fit and his post, Assistant Secretary of the
Navy was obscure and his duties could easily have been filled by someone
else (so what if the "other" Roosevelt was also Assistant Secretary
of the Navy?)."

On the other hand, did FDR evade the draft by moving to another country,
and did he actively campaign against his War while in that foreign
country?

Chuck continues:

"It is absolutely crucial that our traditional respect for the civilian
chain-of-command be kept intact and that we feret out all officers
currently serving who state offensive things about the President
(although feel free to say what you will about Hilary, who has no title
and is thus fair game to criticism from officers)."

Respect breeds respect.  Clinton has done nothing thus far to earn the
respect you ask for.  On the contrary, when he refuses to allow uniforms
on Air Force One, and now speaks out in favor of the Selective Service,
he does much to earn disrespect.

One of the benefits of living in this country is being able to speak our
minds without fear of reprisal.  Disagreeing with the Commander in Chief's
politics does not imply treason, and no member of the Armed forces should
be prohibited from freely speaking.  As with civilians, when the speech
steps over the line and approaches treason, then punish that person, but
until that happens, we are all free to, and encouraged to, speak what's
on our minds.  After all, that's what many of us have fought for over the years, is it not?

---

Alan Hepburn            "Freedom is increasingly defined as the accumulation
National Semiconductor   of rights and entitlements, and as a license for any
Santa Clara, Ca          form of self-gratification."
[email-masked]                                       Zbigniew Brzezinski

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 17:33:47 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Bombing Of Coventry, UK's Response

On Mon, 14 Mar 1994, Terry Moore wrote:

> opinion. The Coventry raid was purely terroristic in nature. One view

Coventry was the center of the British car manufacturing industry.
There was damage to the factories, but the production capacity wasn't
reduced significantly. On the other hand, the centre of the city was
severely hit. Given the problems and inaccuracy of WWII bombing, that
doesn't say much about the planned targets, however.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 11:45:44 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: VOTE AGAINST WWII

>
> There is one woman, I believe her name was Jeanette Rankin, a Representative
> from Montana, who voted against declaring war on Japan in Dec 41.  She also
> voted against WWI.  She ran for her seat again in the next election but the
> voters rejected her.

I recall hearing a story on this on National Public Radio.  They seemed utterly
baffled that the voters would have rejected her on this basis.... :)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 11:20:33 EST
From:    Bill Vasilion <[email-masked]>
Subject: movies

          i have not seen JOhn wayne in Sands of Iwo Jima but that
          movie sticks in my mind.. also the bridge on the river kwai
          was a very good movie.

           One movie that will stick in my mind was I believe the
         William Wyler film, where Fredrick March, Dana Andrews
         and Harold Russell are flying back home in the same army airforce
         plane to the same town.
          Fredrick March comes home and the children see him..but
         he tells them to be quiet as myrna loy ask's who is at the door.
         See finally comes to the hallway and sees her husband back
          from the war...........it was an excellent movie........

                               bill

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 10:49:33 -0600
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: TOPIC ELSEWHERE:  Military disrespect OR Academic freedom

I have been tersely -- and convincingly -- informed by Larry that
  this topic is not within the WWII-L charter.  I don't quite
  understand why, but I DO want to remain on WWII-L and a "Befehl
  [from Larry] ist [ein] Befehl."

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 09:22:32 PST
From:    "Jones, Scott T." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re[2]: Bombing Of Coventry, UK's Response

     Terry;

     I realize I am late in joining this conversation but I get the
     impression that you feel the Allies bombed Dresden because it wasn't
     bombed yet? I seem to recall that there was an unwritten but mutually
     understood agreement between Britain and Germany that if Oxford(?) was
     not bombed then Dresden would not be bombed. I also recall that
     Dresden, at the time, was a seat of education and arts in Germany as
     was Oxford for England, thus the pact was formed. Have you ever heard
     of this *agreement* between the two powers?

     Also, any idea of how many refugees were present during the bombing? I
     would believe there would be many since the Eastern Front was
     collapsing and Dresden was a sort of crossroads for those escaping the
     Soviet hoard.

     Once again, I thank you for your enlightenment.

     Scott Jones

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 09:47:51 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Bombing Of Coventry, UK's Response

Terry, you are a history professor... Surely, you don't promulgate
a myth simply because you had "read about it".  :-)
As I remarked to someone else here last week, the "Churchill allowed
Coventry to be bombed to protect ENIGMA" myth was born of a single
senstaionalist book in 1968. Despite the most enthusiastic and probing
research, there has never been the slightest shred of evidence to
support such a fairy-story.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 09:54:28 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WWI in film

Ah, Beau Geste...
Great movie; the original Gary Cooper version, not that poor re-make.
BG was from one of series of French Foreign Legion novels by the English
author, P.C. Wren.
His books were very popular sellers in the 1920s and early 30s. Entertaining
to read, despite the fact that Wren never left England, much less ever
visited Morocco.  :-)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 12:43:02 EST
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Nisei Detention Camps ... and the alternatives

On Sat, 12 Mar 1994 16:22:39 EST Chuck McCormick said:
>There were, sadly,
>some Japanese-Americans who worked as spys.  And Tokyo Rose was
>an American citizen.

Some particulars, please.  What I've read states flatly that there were no
acts of sabotage or espionage by Japanese-Americans in CONUS during WWII.

Paul Harvey, by coincidence, had "the rest of the story" on Tokyo Rose today.
Seems she had been dragooned into visiting Japan by her relatives before the
war, hated it, got trapped by the war, got pressured into giving up her
citizenship, got the choice of working in a munitions factory or on radio
(for about $7/month) to keep alive.  The moral, if any, is left for the
listener.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 09:55:06 -0800
From:    "Office TH325, Extension 3566" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: VOTE AGAINST WWII

>From David Brinkley's book *Washington Goes To War* (New York: Knopf,
>1988, p. 91):
>
>     "Forty-eight minutes after the president arrived, the Senate declared
>war, by a vote of 82 to 0. Thirty-two minutes later the House followed
>with a vote of 388 to 1.
>     The one was Representative Jeannette Rankin of Montana, who had also
>voted (but not alone) against World War I. She cast her "no" vote and then
>ran into an anteroom, closed herself inside a telephone booth, and sat
>there crying. The police insisted that for her own safety they would have
>to escort her across the street to her office. Her state reacted with a
>burst of hury and telegrams poured in accusing her of "staining the honor
>of Montana." It was the end of her career in Congress."
>
>-- Bill Eldridge

Although the Congressional Record will never be a best seller, I
found that the week following Pearl Harbor does make some interesting
reading.  There is of course FDR's "Day of Infamy" speech, and although
it's been awhile since I read it, I think Rankin made a speech too.

Some things never change.  Many of the Senators and Representatives were
out of town that weekend, and airline travel not being as well developed
as it is today, some of them could not get back in time to vote.  The
record has many "I was unavoidbly out of town, but if I had been here I
would have voted for war" speeches.  You could probably win some triva
bets by betting that some well-known Congressmen did not vote "YES" on
the war.  If my memory is correct, Washington State's Magnusum (sp) and
Scoop Jackson (who were both in the house I believe) were not in town to
vote.

John Riegsecker
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 10:08:25 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WWI in film

Probably the best war movie ever produced was the 1930 version of
ALL QUIET ON THE WESTERN FRONT.
Interestingly, its star, a then-unknown actor, Lew Ayres, registered
as a conscientious objector in 1941. Then, to demonstrate his integrity,
Ayres volunteered to serve as a medical corpsman with the United States
Navy.  He acted with natable bravery under fire during several Marine
landings in the Pacific.
The film was adapted from the novel of the same name, by a German
author, Erich Maria Remarque. He had been a front-line soldier in
the German army in WWOne. His book/film was such an effective voice
against war, that he became very unpopular with the Nazis, and left
Germany in the mid-1930s. 'Glad to record, Remarque spent a long and
comfortable life, married to an American movie-actress, in sunny
Spain.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 12:05:03 -0600
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Soviet Armored Trains:  Book AND MODELS

Athol,

     Yes!  A book would be very popular.  Even some wargames
played/sold in the West include armored train units.  This makes
such games especially interesting to (model) train hobbyists.

     In the 1970s and 1980s, the Soviets produced some beauti-
ful 1:87 and 1:43 -scale model tanks, trucks, guns, etc.  Only
now are many of these products -- which fell out of production
in the 1980s because of Cold War boycotts, etc. -- becoming
available in the West and they are very popular.  (Prices are
going up!  as they become scarce.)

     With all their military manufacturing capability inactive,
maybe the Russians could start producing MODEL armored trains,
as well.  The scenes in the film "Dr. Zhivago" were
fascinating!

Lou Coatney, Western Illinois University, Macomb

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 13:06:26 -0500
From:    "W. C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: movies

>           One movie that will stick in my mind was I believe the
>         William Wyler film, where Fredrick March, Dana Andrews
>         and Harold Russell are flying back home in the same army airforce
>         plane to the same town.

THE BEST YEARS OF OUR LIVES it is called.  Regularly shows up on the
American Movie Classics channel.  Winner of several Academy Awards.
The most heartbreaking scene is when Dana Andrews is wandering among
the de-militarized aircraft stacked on their noses...and climbs
in an old B-17 right before the wreckers get to her.  Wonder if
those people ever knew that these aircraft would be near priceless
in a few decades?

A great movie, by any standards.

Bill
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 12:08:26 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: movies

Hello, Bill!
>
>            One movie that will stick in my mind was I believe the
>          William Wyler film, where Fredrick March, Dana Andrews
>          and Harold Russell are flying back home in the same army airforce
>          plane to the same town.
>           Fredrick March comes home and the children see him..but
>          he tells them to be quiet as myrna loy ask's who is at the door.
>          See finally comes to the hallway and sees her husband back
>           from the war...........it was an excellent movie........
>
    Quite right! That movie was "The Best Years of Our Lives". A
movie to be seen again and again. It was one of the best of the
postwar movies. As were most at the time that used the military as a
backdrop, movies then were used to instruct as well as entertain.
That one was devoted to the public and how it might best handle
dealing with the returning serviceman. The cast was terrific and the
plot was superb.

    A great one indeed.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 12:12:58 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Bombing Of Coventry, UK's Response

Hello, Emmanuel!

Thanks for the small correction. Believe it or not, I actually talked
with and still have contact with a former bomber pilot that made that
raid and was 11 times over London.

It has been awhile since I read about the Coventry raid, but I am
certain that you are correct on this. Given the circumstances, I am
certain that the Germans, particularly Hitler, by that time, weren't
too concerned with military targets. If they were there, then so much
the better.

    Thanks again.

    Terry

> Coventry was the center of the
British car manufacturing industry.
> There was damage to the factories, but the production capacity wasn't
> reduced significantly. On the other hand, the centre of the city was
> severely hit. Given the problems and inaccuracy of WWII bombing, that
> doesn't say much about the planned targets, however.
>
> Emmanuel Gustin
>

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 16:41:08 GMT
From:    Johannes van Vuren <[email-masked]>
Subject: Removing swastikas

There was a (politically correct) bookshop in London which specilised in books
on socialism. When I was there once I asked them if they had a copy of
'Mein Kampf'. I was informed, very indignantly, "...look here, we only stock
books on socialism, not fascism".

Funny me. I always though that Mein Kampf was about the former and not the
latter. Then I remembered what the late Ayn Rand used to say: "The difference
between socialism and fascism is only a matter of time".

Johannes van Vuren,
Canterbury, England.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 13:24:00 EST
From:    Don Bowden <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: movies

        The movie you mentioned with Frederick March etc. is "Best Years of
Our Lives" I believe. It won an Academy Award as I recall. I remember seeing
it over 20 years ago for the first time and thought it was fantastic, dealing
with many of the difficulties and readjustments of the returning veterans.
They don'tmake movies like much anymore: no sleazy sex, bad language etc and
the characters really cared for each other, particularly the bonds bwteen the
returning vets.
Don Bowden
Winston-Salem, NC

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 12:23:36 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Bombing Of Coventry, UK's Response

Hello, Scott!

Thanks for the reply and your response is very interesting. I want to
comment on some of the points you mention.

>      I realize I am late in joining this conversation but I get the
>      impression that you feel the Allies bombed Dresden because it wasn't
>      bombed yet?

    True. Up until that time, Berlin was the primary civilian target,
naturally, and Dresden possessed no targets of military significance,
save the Meissen factory outside the city. Other than that there was
nothing there worth bombing until 1944, when the Russians began to
penetrate into Poland and East Prussia and other areas close to
Saxony. Up until that time, Dresden had not been attacked and soon
began to be looked upon by the Germans as a "safe-haven" for refugees
fleeing the Germans, which in fact it became: a haven for refugees.
I think I have read that there were eventually 500,000 refugees
located there at the time that it was bombed, also, given the time of
year, the weather conditions, all combined to make Dresden a tempting
target and hopefully create fire-storm conditions there.

I seem to recall that there was an unwritten but mutually
>      understood agreement between Britain and Germany that if Oxford(?) was
>      not bombed then Dresden would not be bombed. I also recall that
>      Dresden, at the time, was a seat of education and arts in Germany as
>      was Oxford for England, thus the pact was formed. Have you ever heard
>      of this *agreement* between the two powers?

    I have never heard of that, and given the nature of WWII combat
and war as a whole, such a "gentleman's agreement" regarding Dresden
and Oxford would have sounded ludicrous to most at that time. The
idea was to win as quickly as possible with all the means at hand,
and such an "agreement" would have gone counter to the aims of the
war effort of both countries.

>      Also, any idea of how many refugees were present during the bombing? I
>      would believe there would be many since the Eastern Front was
>      collapsing and Dresden was a sort of crossroads for those escaping the
>      Soviet hoard.

    See above. There was also widespread thought in Dresden at the
time, that the British would not bomb Dresden because there was a
British POW camp nearby.

 >      Once again, I thank you for your enlightenment.

    Glad to oblige, and thanks again for writing.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 10:30:49 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Bombing Of Coventry, UK's Response

Pardon me for protrudin' ...
There were no agreements or "understandings" of any kind between
Germany and Britain during the Secord World War about avoiding
bombing targets.
In April, 1942, the Luftwaffe bombed selected medieval city centres
throughout England -- the "Baedeker Raids".  So called referring
to the Baedekker tourism guides which described these historic
British cities.  The raids' destruction of historic buildings
caused almost as much damage to morale as did the deaths -- Bath,
400 civilians killed, for instance.  Luftwaffe planes hit all
historic English towns that month; Norwich, several raids; York,
where the 15th century Guildhall was destroyed.
On April 26, Hitler told Goebbels, he would "repeat these raids
night after night until the English were sick and tired...."
About the same time, Churchill told the War Cabinet, "
"... disproportionate publicity should not be given to the Baedekker
raids. Our attacks on germany were inflicting much greater damage,
and it is important to avoid giving the impression that the Germans
were making full reprisal..."

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 10:52:54 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: movies

It was, indeed, a splendid movie...
THE BEST YEARS OF OUR LIVES.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 11:02:10 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: movies

Your mention of the scene of hundreds of WW2 bombers discarded in a field, reminded me.
        Around 1946, I saw that very scene often in England.  Row upon row
of Lancasters, Spitfires, Typhoons... run over by bulldozers, and the wreckage
shipped off to the smelter.  'Easy to criticize in retrospect, I know, but
still you'd think the authorities in Britain and the States would have had
the foresight to have preserved many samples of aircraft, for historical
purposes.
PS:  Still see that great roiling pall of black smoke marking a huge
bonfire of deHavilland Mosquito bombers -- their glued plywood fuselages
burned fiercely.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 14:08:58 EST
From:    Mike Oaks <[email-masked]>
Subject: ELECTRONIC MAPS

I don't remember who asked for information on electronic maps and that they
be shipped to their private address but I for one would be interested in
that information also!!

      Thanks,
            Mike Oaks
            Kennesaw State College

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 11:31:20 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: movies

Yes, there were a lot of quite excellent "war" movies produced in
the States and Britain during the 10 years after 1945.  There was
still an audience for them -- and a very *knowledgeable* audience,
at that.
All through WW2, Hollywood turned our numerous war movies, of course.
Some awful, some quite good.  It's fashionable now to purse the lips
disapprovingly about those movies, with PC squeals about them being
"propaganda".  'Fact is, Hollywood has always been a commercial
private enterprise.  Those Hollywood war movies popularized "our side"
naturally.  For obvious reasons: one always roots for the home team,
anyway, and besides, nobody was going pay to see any movies about
"nice Nazis".:-)
Adolph Hitler was a great admirer of Hollywood movies. He'd watch a
couple a week, and bring Goebbels along, to shout at him -- "Why
can't *we* make movies like that?"

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 11:43:19 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Removing swastikas

That's a comical story you tell, about the PC bookstore scorning
Mein Kampf.
All through the Second World War, MEIN KAMPF was freely available on
library shelves anywhere in Britain. T
The only books I ever heard of being banned in Britain then were of
a British humorist, stragely enough.  P.H. Wodehouse ("Jeeves", etc.)
stayed on in France after Dunkirk, and foolishly made three radio
broadcasts from Berlin to Britain. He actually thought there'd be no
harm in telling the folks back home how respectfully he was being
treated by the Nazis.  Innocuous enough, but it drove people in the
UK wild. Having your old mum bombed every night and on near-starvation
food rationing didn't quite jibe with comfortable stories from well-
fed collaborationists.  There was a good deal of resentment, at the
individual and local level, and poor old Wodehouse's books were banned
from the shelves of many local libraries.  Later on, PGW's books
gradually came back onto the shelves, though.
PS: Wodehouse was investigated after the Liberation, but no action
against him was deemed necessary. However, he never set foot in Britain
again (the land he loved), and he died at 93 in upper-state New York.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 14:06:01 EST
From:    Bill Vasilion <[email-masked]>
Subject: MOVIES

          HI  Yes I that is the movie...very touching with Harold russell
        playing himself....for those who don't know the movie...harold was
         in the navy and had his hands blown off......so it dealt with
       part of his problems of coming home to his girl.......
          I found the movie very moving....and this was when I was still
       a teen.....and not affected by much emotions from the movies.....
          I hear that at the Ford plant in chicago where they made engines
         it was rumored by never confirmed.....that thier were airplane
        engines were still down in the tunnels. the plant had tunnels
        and huge rooms where work was done on the engines....
        Sometimes they would test the engines in a building away from
        the plant, and people who lived there remember the huge
         noise when an engine would explode.........the walls of the building
        were very thick...
        bill

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 14:46:47 -0500
From:    Daniel Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 8 Dec '41: Any "NO" Votes For War?

>
>     Yes. One woman from Maine, I think. I used to know her name. She
> also voted no in declaring war on Germany in WWI. She was a senator,
> I believe.
>
> > When Congress declared war on Japan, did anyone vote no? I realize this is an
> > obscure question but I can't find the actual state-by-state roll call anywhere
> >
> > Did anyone vote "NO." I would be fascinated to know who and even why if anyone
> > knows.
> >

That doesn't sound right. The woman from Maine would have been Margaret
Chase Smith, too bright a bulb I think to have voted no. But I am sure
there were no votes. Not mentioned in RANDOM HOUSE ENCLYC, however.

Regards -

Dan Ford      <e-mail: [email-masked]>

              <postal: 433 Bay Road, Durham NH 03824 USA>
              <voice or fax: +1-603-868-5850>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 14:48:49 -0500
From:    Justin Gustainis SUNY-Plattsburgh <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: VOTE AGAINST WWII

I can't say for sure whether there were any negative votes on the
Declaration of War in the House--I bow to others on that one.  But
I'm fairly sure that there was one negative vote in the Senate, cast
by Senator Margaret Chase Smith or Maine.

Justin Gustainis

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 14:51:20 -0500
From:    Daniel Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 8 Dec '41: Any "NO" Votes For War?

> >
> > When Congress declared war on Japan, did anyone vote no? I realize this is an
> > obscure question but I can't find the actual state-by-state roll call anywher
> e.
> Yes, Representative Rankin of [ ? ? a Western state, possibly Montana or
> Wyoming?]
>
That's it! Jeanette Rankin of Montana, first woman to serve in Congress,
elected 1917 and voted against war with Germany, which caused her to be
defeated for reelection. Reelected 1940 and cast the only House vote
against war on Dec 8 1941. How's that for consistency?

Dan Ford      <e-mail: [email-masked]>

              <postal: 433 Bay Road, Durham NH 03824 USA>
              <voice or fax: +1-603-868-5850>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 13:50:00 -0600
From:    H-NET <[email-masked]>
Subject: H-NET and this list; we may start our own later

       H-Net is not able right now to take over wwii-L.
       Sorry--we're just too overwhelmed with other projects.

       HOWEVER, we would like to start a new list in military
       history over the summer. It would be moderated and have a
       scholarly orientation. Look for an announcement--and write
       me if you would like to help out.

       Thanks,
       Richard Jensen
       Director of H-NET
       [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 14:54:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Maps

Speaking of electronic maps, does anyone have, or know where I can get,
good paper maps of the major Solomon Islands, Admiralty Islands, etc.  By
good, I mean maps that show (and name) the rivers, plantations, villages,
etc.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 14:23:11 -0600
From:    Jon Stevens <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: German POW's in Russia

During the summer of 1991 I was visiting Moscow State University.  A
couple of students informed me that M.S.U. was built by German POW's.
They were refering to the main building on the campus of the university,
which is quite HUGE.  I think the style of the building is described as
"wedding cake architecture".  I was also informed that this information
was very recently made public in the Soviet Union, at least in 1991.  Is
there any documentation concerning this information?  I assume that German's
built or rebuilt quite a bit of Russia after the war.

Jon Stevens - e-mail [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 12:29:59 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Maps

For the maps you want, contact:
        National geographic Society,
        17 & M Street, NW,
        Washington, DC 20036.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 09:58:21 -0600
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Amarillo WWII Comemmorative Activities

> > Hello, All!
> >
> > I was asked by the chairman of a community-wide committee here, which
> > is devoted to initiating activities to comemmorate the 50th
> > anniversary year of the end of WWII. This committee is interested in
> > finding out if there are other locations involved in similar
> > situations. If so, could any or all of you who are in the know here
> > post to me the kinds of activities that will be held or scheduled
> > within the very near future? I would greatly appreciate that. Any
> > suggestions for such comemmorative activities either projected or
> > actively pursured would be most helpful and greatly appreciated.
> >
> > Thank you very much.
> >
> > Terry
> >
> > Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College

Sounds like a group within the membership of the WWII Commemorative
Committee (as are we).  You have to submit an application to be approved
by the organization which is operated by the Navy, primarily (though the
executive in charge is a retired Army General.  :-)

What they see as "activities" is just about anything that brings WWII
back to life for the public.  As examples, we send our aircraft all over
the region all summer long (we would anyways :-), but that counts.  We
have two 1940's style hangar dances (in a WWII hangar and live band) where
people are strongly encouraged to come in uniform or civilian dress.
Sending vintage vehicles to parades and holding an airshow are all events
the group supports.  Symposiums, museum displays in malls, WWII "Fashion
Shows", book signing parties at a mall book store, etc.

Just about anything can be made into a commemorative event.

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
[email-masked]                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 14:42:38 CST
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WANT: PBY Catalina graphic

I'm looking for a GIF/JPEG/whatever of a PBY Catalina.  Line drawing
would be great, artsy drawing equally great or a scanned photo would be
great, though maybe not as usable.  :-)

Have been unable to locate one on any of the servers I've plodded through.
Anyone have one?

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
[email-masked]                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 13:10:00 PST
From:    "David J. Weightman" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Greetings

Hello, my name is David Weightman and I am joining this list as
of 14th March. I am taking a class in 20th century American
Foreign Policy and thought that this would be a good list to
sign up to. Hope to hear from you.

                                     Dave

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 12:27:26 -0500
From:    Stan Koper <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 8 Dec '41: Any "NO" Votes For War?

Jeanette Rankin, representative from Montana, voted "no".  She
also voted "no" to participation in WW I.

Stan Koper
[email-masked]
plus  a change, plus c'est la m me chose
     This message brought to you by uqwk and Yarn 0.58

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 13:35:00 PST
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Reinstating the Draft

George,
        Are you saying that you would like to give the state more power to
control our bodies? You believe everyone should give 1 year of public service
and that everyone should serve in the military? What about my rights as an
individual? America was founded on the basis that the state serves the people,
you are proposing that it should be the opposite. How is serving in the military
a "public service"? I would say it's a disservice because the military is what
devours about $270 bil. of our hard-earned tax dollars. For what? To support
more advanced missile systems, to establish military bases on every corner of
the Earth, to bomb Middle Eastern countries back into the stone age, to arm
with deadly technology the same tyrants whose countries "we" bomb, to support
both sides of a horrible war which killed millions of people doing "public
service" for their respective totalitarian states (Iraqgate & Irangate)? Yes, I
know this doesn't correlate with WW2, but people who want the state to control
my body need another viewpoint. -Dylan Fierro

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 16:36:54 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: ADMIN: WWII-L Closing on 18 March.

This list will be closed as of 18 March. After that date there will be no
WWII-L. I will store a copy of the membership list on the 17th. This list
will be forwarded to H-Net to be used to notify you of the formation of
the new H-WWII (or whatever they choose to call it) when and if it's formed
during summer/fall. If you wish notification of the new list, stay sub'ed
to WWII-L and you'll be on the list. If not interested I suggest you unsub
prior to the 17th.

Thanks to everyone for an interesting couple of years and keep the candles
lit until the light come back on, on Broadway.

servabo fidem,
Larry J

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 16:40:13 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: Alternative forums...

Date:     Sat, 13 Nov 1993 00:03:55 -0600
Sender: H-Net Teaching History discussion list
              <@VM.CC.PURDUE.EDU:H-TEACH@UICVM>

Moderator's note (CF): What follows is H-Net's guide to history lists
on bitnet and internet in all areas of history. It's long, but I
thought it might be useful to you.

===========================================================================
         [copy freely & circulate & send along updates]

    "H-Net Guide to History Lists on Bitnet/Internet"
         from [email-masked]  November 12, 1993

    =============================================================
    [how to subscribe? read section C first; for lists marked "see
    UK" go to section E below for subscription information]
    -------------------------------------------------------------

 A. Lists, by topic:
         listname@node (where node = name of computer host)
                    ** = H-Net sponsored list at UICVM [Bitnet] and
                         UICVM.UIC.EDU [Internet]
       [about half the lists are inactive, or have < 1 message week]
       [at present, none of the lists charge for subscriptions.]
       ----------------------------------------------

    1. Afro-American, Ethnicity, Latino, Third World
       a) AfAm-L@UMCVMB     African-American Research
       b) AfAS-L@KENTVM     African American Studies and Librarianship
       c) AfroAm-L@harvarda African-American Studies
       d) CANALC@YORKVM1    Latin America and the Caribbean
       e) China@PUCC        Chinese Studies
       f) EMedCh-L@uscvm    Early medieval China
       g) EthnoHis@hearn    Ethnohistory
       h) H-Ethnic@uicvm    ** ethnicity, immigration
       i) H-Judaic@uicvm    ** Judaica and Jewish Studies
       j) H-LatAm@uicvm     ** Latin American
       k) Islam-L@ulkyvm    History of Islam
       l) [email-masked] Latin American Studies Network
       m) MCLR-L@MSU        Latino Research
       n) ORTRAD-L@MIZZOU1  Oral traditons
       o) SEAsia-L@MSU      Southeast Asian Studies

    2. Ancient and Medieval History
       a) [email-masked]   AGORA = e-journal in classics
       b) Ancien-L@ULKYVM   History of the Ancient Mediterranean
       c) ANE               Ancient Near East.
          send SUB message to:    [email-masked]
       d) AnSax-L@WVNVM     Anglo Saxon
       e) [email-masked]  Bryn Mawr Classics Review (ejournal)
       f) [email-masked]  Bryn Mawr Medieval Review (ejournal)
       g) Classics@UWAVM    Classical Greek and Latin [very active]
       h) IBYCUS-L@uscvm    Ibycus (Ancient Greek)
       i) [email-masked]      Medieval seminar topics
       j) IOUDAIOS@yorkvm1  First Century Judaism
       k) MedFem-L@UWAVM    Medievalist feminists
       l) MEDIEV-L@ukanvm   Medieval
       m) MEDTEXTL@uiucvmd  Medieval Texts, Philology, Codicology

    3. European History
       a) [email-masked]   French culture  [send e-note to
          [email-masked] ]
       b) C18-L@psuvm       18th century history & culture [active]
       c) [email-masked]  German lit & culture [send
          e-note to owner at: [email-masked] ]
       d) EMHist-L@uscvm    early modern Europe [low activity]
       e) ESPORA-L@ukanvm   Spain/Portugal [low activity]
       f) Ficino            Renaissance/Reformation
          enquiries to  [email-masked]
       g) FranceHs@UWAVM    French history [inactive]
       h) GrmnHist@uscvm    German history
       i) H-Albion@uicvm    ** British History
       j) [email-masked]   European social thought
          Send request to: [email-masked]
       k) HABSBURG@purccvm  Austrian History since 1500
       l) HISLAW-L@ulkyvm   History of Law (Feudal, Common, Canon)
       m) history-vasco [see UK]  15-16c Portugal
       n) Low Countries  [medieval & early modern; interdisciplinary]
          apply to [email-masked]
       o) RENAIS-L@ULKYVM   Renaissance

    4. Economic History
       a) EconHist          Economic; Cliometric History Assoc.
          write [email-masked]
       b) Essex-history [see UK]  Historical data archives at ESRC
       c) H-Labor@uicvm     ** labor History
       d) history-econ  [see UK]  Economic history; excellent newsletter

    5. Military History, Wars
       a) H-CivWar@uicvm    ** US Civil War
       b) MilHst-L@ukanvm   Military History [active; semi-popular]
       c) VWar-L@UBVM       Vietnam War [history, pop culture very active]

    6. General; National & Professional Groups
       a) AHC-L@DGOGWDG1    (European) Association for History & Computing
       b) CLIONET           Australian quarterly e-journal
          reach it through HNSOURCE (see section B1 below) under
               RESOURCES/ Europe and Asia
       c) history-ihr [see UK]    Intitute of Historical Reseach
       d) history@psuvm     Generic history [active; semi-pop]
       e) L-CHA@uqam        Canadian Historical Association
       f) OMHR              Online Modern History Review
          send e-note to editor at [email-masked]

    7. Religion
       a) AmerCath@UKCC     History of American Catholicism
       b) HISTEC-L@ukanvm   History of Evangelical Christianity
       c) HOLOCAUS@uicvm    ** Holocaust studies, anti-Semitism
       d) Shaker@ukcc       Shakers

    8. Science, Technology, Computing
       a) ASEH-L@TTUVM1     Am. Soc. of Environmental Historians
       b) Caduceus          Medical history; email to ibowman@utmbeach
       c) EPP-L@BUACCA      Albert Einstein Papers and Discussion
       d) HOPOS-L@UKCC      History of Philosophy of Science [active]
       e) HOST              History of Science & Tech (ejournal)
          contact editor at [email-masked]
       f) HTech-L@SIVM      History of Technology [active]
       g) MedSci-L@brownvm  Medieval and Renaissance science
       h) SHOTHC-L@SIVM     History of Computing

    9. Teaching, Public History & Ancillary Fields
       a) [email-masked]    Archives [very active]
       b) CTICH             Computers in teaching history
          ewrite: [email-masked]
       c) H-Grad@uicvm      ** graduate students only
       d) H-Teach@uicvm     ** teaching History
       e) history-methods [see UK]
       f) history-teaching [see UK]
       g) HUMANIST@brownvm  Humanists [active, famous]
       h) MUSEUM-L@unmvma   Museums
       i) Humgrad [see UK]  Graduate students in Humanities
       j) PUBLHIST          Public history list
          To subscribe, send SUB to [email-masked]
       k) Roots-L@NDSUVM1   Genealogy [very active]
       l) SEdit-L@UMDD      Editors of scholarly editions [active]
       m) SHARP-L@IUBVM     History of Authorship, Reading

   10. US History
       a) American-studies [see UK]
       b) AmWest-H@uscvm    American West
       c) EarAm-L@KENTVM    Society of Early Americanists
       d) H-AmStdy@uicvm    ** American Studies
       e) H-CivWar@uicvm    ** US Civil War
       f) H-South@uicvm     ** US South
       g) H-Pol@uicvm       ** US Political History
       h) IEAHCnet@uicvm    ** Early American History & Culture
       i) [email-masked] [Internet]  US Presidential History,
          PrezHist%kasey.umkc.edu@umkcvax1 [Bitnet]          1789-1992

   11. Other Topical List
       a) AERA-F@asuacad    Education History [nb capitalization]
       b) H-Diplo@uicvm     ** diplomatic; foreign affairs
       c) H-Film@uicvm      ** scholarly studies & uses of media
       d) H-Law@uicvm       ** legal & constitutional
       e) H-Rhetor@uicvm    ** history of rhetoric
       f) H-Rural@uicvm     ** rural, agricultural history
       g) H-Urban@uicvm     ** Urban History
       h) H-Women@uicvm     ** Women's History
       i) [email-masked]  Kansas History and Life
       j) Poli-Sci@RUTVM1   Political Science Digest
       k) PSRT-L@MIZZOU1    Pol Science/ constl law book reviews
       l) Victoria@IUBVM    Victorian studies
       m) WHIRL@PSUVM       Women's History in Rhetoric & Language
       n) World-L@UBVM      World History

 B. Gopher Services to History Textbases
    1. HNSOURCE          history gopher service at U Kansas (="MALIN")
       telnet   hnsource.cc.ukans.edu
    2. the menu option RESOURCES: DATA BASES includes direct access to
       databases, including CARL (periodical literature) and LOCIS
       (Library of Congress catalog)
    3. Byrd Historical Data Archives (e-texts)
       use gopher through HNSOURCE under RESOURCES/America
    4. GHETA             History ftp service at U of Groningen
       reach it from HNSOURCE under RESOURCES/ Europe and Asia
    5. Mississippi State History Data Archive
       via HNSOURCE under RESOURCES/America

 C. How to subscribe to a LIST via Bitnet (use H-TEACH as example).
    Do NOT send a message directly to the list. Instead send it to
    the "listserv" that handles the list. (Note spelling of
    LISTSERV). The Listserv program on the mainframe computer at the
    other end will figure out your e-address from the message header
    it gets from your computer.
    1.  Thus to subscribe to H-TEACH (that is, H-TEACH@uicvm)
       send a message to its listserv, which will be
            LISTSERV@uicvm
       for H-TEACH@uicvm.
       --no "subject" line
       --the text of your message should be:
       SUBSCRIBE H-TEACH Your Name School
       for example:
       SUBSCRIBE H-TEACH Leslie Jones, U of Southern Nebraska
    2. To unsubscribe:
       send this message to Listserv@node
       UNSUBSCRIBE listname Your Name
    3. To put messages on hold for a while, send this message to
       listserv@node:
       SET listname NOMAIL
       that is, SET H-TEACH NOMAIL
       a) To resume messages:     SET listname MAIL

 D. Internet is, in general, a better system than Bitnet. [They are
    actually two different systems, but they interconnect.  Half the
    subscription problems occur because of confusion regarding the
    two.]  Bitnet addresses are short and look like xxxx@yyyy.
    Internet addresses are longer and look like [email-masked]
    If your mainframe uses Internet only, use this tip: if the
    Bitnet address is xxxx@zzzz, send the message to
    [email-masked]  (Internet then uses its gateway to Bitnet.)

 E. UK lists at [email-masked]
       for all British lists, send e-note (no subject) to
       [email-masked]
       containing the single line:
       JOIN list Firstname Surname
       (i.e. JOIN History-econ Jane Doe
       to exit:       LEAVE History-methods
       a) if you are inside Britain, email to
          JANET%"[email-masked]"
          -----------------------------------

 F. How to post a message for everyone on list
    (be sure to sign it, & give your own e-address; and keep a
    copy--most lists do not automatically send you a copy of your
    own message.)
    send it to listname@node     that is, H-TEACH@uicvm [Bitnet]
         or to [email-masked] [Internet]
    --depending on your mainframe, you may have to use one of
    several variants: check with your computer center on how to send
    an email message to a bitnet address
              one variant: (IBM CMS mainframes)
                           NOTE H-TEACH@uicvm
          three more variants (VAX VMS systems)
    in%"H-TEACH@uicvm"
    jnet%"H-TEACH@uicvm"
    po%"[email-masked]"

 -----------------------------

End of H-TEACH Digest - 11 Nov 1993 to 12 Nov 1993
**************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 13:57:17 PST
From:    "Jones, Scott T." <[email-masked]>
Subject: VMI Alumni

     Is anybody on this list either an alumnus of the Virginia Military
     Institutue or know anybody who is? I am also curious if anybody knows
     any VMI Alumni who served in WWII?

     Scott Jones
     [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 17:29:15 EST
From:    Robert E George <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: VOTE AGAINST WWII

>
> I can't say for sure whether there were any negative votes on the
> Declaration of War in the House--I bow to others on that one.  But
> I'm fairly sure that there was one negative vote in the Senate, cast
> by Senator Margaret Chase Smith or Maine.

     No -- Margaret Chase  Smith did not enter the Senate until 1949.
> Justin Gustainis

     Margaret Chase Smith was a Representative prior to entering
the Senate. I believe she was in office at the time of the Pearl Harbor
attack. She was ( and is incidentally still living ) very much an armed
forces sort of legislator: Navy Committee, then Armed Services Committee;
Air Force Reserve, et cetera.

     Rob George

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 14:25:25 -0500
From:    Steven VEST <[email-masked]>
Subject: Unsubscribe WWII-L (Bye Folks)

Unsubscribe WWII-L

Larry:

   I hope I'm doing this right.  If not send me e-mail and I'll do a
proper job.  I don't have my documentation here at work.  I just wanted
to thank you for all you've done and give you a bit of advice.

   Don't give control of the list to anyone.  Let it die.  It's flailing
about in its last death throes even as we speak.  I've never been on such
a good list and never seen a list go bad so quickly.

   In the last couple of months the list has gone from an excellent,
adult, discussion on WWII that produced 10-12 messages a day, to a circus
producing 20-50 messages a day.  The real problem is that most of these
messages have little or nothing to do with a serious discussion of WWII.

   On one side we have a couple of people wrapping themselves in the flag
and grinding axes on everything from the president to (of all things)
Vietnam War protesters.  On the other side we have people willing to
argue the political semantics of every word to the last iota of phosphor
on their screens ("We shouldn't call them Nazis, Ethically challenged
Aryans would be nicer." or "They weren't concentration camps they were
more like guest camps for our Japanese friends.")  In between we seem to
have people that have no filter between their minds and their keyboards.
("Did you know the Polish Army whomped the Red Army?" {Yes but NOT during
WWII} or "Should the draft be killed, kept, or made mandatory for everyone
 over four?")

    I just don't have the time for this kind of crap.  I read my mail
at work and I have a hard enough time justifying the time I spend to
myself without being inundated with endless argument and useless
conjecture.  I'm out of here kids.

    Larry, best of luck with your health.  And if you decide to run
another list or find another WWII list you recommend (one run with an
iron hand) drop me a note.  Joe Barone, if you ever get a tape player
I'll send you a copy of my KH audio.  To all you reasonable, dedicated
amateur and professional historians I've met out there, best of luck.
I'll miss you.  To the rest of you.............. oh what the hell, best
of luck to you too.  It was fun while it lasted and like Camelot it had
it's "shining moment in the sun".

==========================[email-masked]===========================
= Steven Vest: Head, Off Campus Lib. Services: Nova University, Ft. Ldl, FL =
="You know that these are not the best of times.                           =
=                But they're the only times I've ever known."    Billy Joel=
================No statements made here reflect Nova University==============

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 16:59:29 -0600
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: QUEST: Explain USA Officer Ranks

> One story I heard (and this is TOTALLY unconfirmed, but makes for a
> good story) about why officers carry handguns, relates to the days of
> yore when the officers would ride up and down the ranks to rally the
> troops.  They carried sidearms to shoot anyone who broke ranks and
> tried to run.  As I said, don't know if it's true but . . .
>
>                         Doug Donnell

Hi Folks,

Good post Doug, I had always heard that officers were not issued
rifles so as not to distract them from their combat role, ie direction
of the platoon's activities.  I was told that in combat there was a
natural tendency for anyone with a rifle to return fire and in the
case of officers they were supposed to be organizing flanking
movements or calling in support on the (hopefully) correct
coordinates.

My $0.01 worth (don't know enough to be worth more).

Cheers, Bill Huber  /  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 18:29:13 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: ADMIN: How to unsub...

To unsubscribe from WWII-L, send:

unsub wwii-l

to:

[email-masked]

Write to me if this doesn't work for you.

Larry J

[email-masked]; Co-Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU (Historical docs)
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 17:56:43 -0600
From:    Louise Barak <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 8 Dec '41: Any "NO" Votes For War?

On Mon, 14 Mar 1994, Chuck Weckesser wrote:

> When Congress declared war on Japan, did anyone vote no? I realize this is an
> obscure question but I can't find the actual state-by-state roll call anywhere.
>
> Did anyone vote "NO." I would be fascinated to know who and even why if anyone
> knows.
>
> Regards,
>
> Chuck
>
I don't have any books here, but to the best of my memory, Congresswoman
Jeanette  Rankin of Montana abstained, and no one voted "No". I am typing
this on my wife's number...

Jim Barak

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 15 Mar 1994 10:08:57 +1000
From:    Mick Fauchon <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: model decals

        Sidney,

                It isn't that Revell "prefer" not to supply swastikas on
their decals; they are forbidden by law not to. As far as I understand, this
applies to all EEC counties at least.

                                                                Cheers,

                                                                Mick.

--                                                                          --
Mick Fauchon                          | Internet: [email-masked]
Reference Section, Auchmuty Library   | Ph  (intl+61+49) 215861
University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA    | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833

On Fri, 11 Mar 1994, Sidney Allinson wrote:

> Interesting, if absurd, that Revell and most other mfrs. prefer not to
> supply decals with Nazi insignia.
>         Quite the opposite in the publishing business.  Last year, I
> was at a publishing conference in New York, and one of the seminars
> was on the importance of book covers in marketing.
> One point was how the use of a Swastika logo on book covers was the
> most powerful in sales-grabbing terms of any design.
> The fact that publishers take this so seriously get pretty silly
> sometimes, like when you see a huge Swastika on a book whose story
> is actually from the "other side's" point of view.  :-)
>         A lot of publishing people are almost ostentatiously
> "politically correct" -- but not when it comes to $$$$$.
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 18:40:42 -0600
From:    Lakeville Senior High <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Von Paulus: General or Field Marshall?

Terry, go ahead and post the German source, it's the one other language I
can read.

Andy Charrier

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 20:01:43 EST
From:    Crane Conrad LTC <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Bombing Of Coventry, UK's Response

Terry,
     I know I mentioned this before, but Dresden was bombed because the
Russians requested raids in that sector to stop reinforcements, it fit into
Allied operations against transportation centers, and it did still have some
viable military targets.  Panicking refugees was one expected spinoff, since
it was also tied into THUNDERCLAP operations.

                                                  Con Crane

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 20:36:58 EST
From:    "Rode, Eric K." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re[2]: U-Boats In USA Waters??

>I was told by a person who flew escort duty and sub patrols off the coast
>of Canada that U-boat crew actually came ashore and mingled undetected.
>Of course I can't confirm it, but it makes an interesting story.
>
>
>  =========================================================================
>  | DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
>  |                                  | Computers in Business & Education. |
>  | Recently returned from my second | Education:  Curriculum development.|
>  |   extended stay in Prague.       |    International Education, TEFL.  |
>  |                                  | Central Europe:  Post revolution   |
>  | Working on second book about     |    economic, social, political     |
>  |   Prague and new Czech Republic. |    problems and opportunities.     |
>  | E-Mail:                          | Free lance writing and editing.    |
>  |   USA:  [email-masked]    | Stamp collecting.                  |
>  =========================================================================
There was a movie made about such an occurance.  It was pretty
interesting.  They had landed a half a dozen or so crewmembers
and while they were on shore their U-boat was sunk.  They went to
a nearby village and took a hostage (and killed him eventually).
They headed towards America( I think they were planning to conduct
some sabotage operations).  The last one,that avoided death or
capture, was crossing the St. Lawrence River in a freight train,
but was stopped by (I think) a deserting U.S service man or a
draft dogger.  I believe that is how it all went, it has been
several years and many movies ago.  I can not say whether any of
it is true, but it was a good movie.  Maybe someone will remember
the flick and write about its validity.
St.Lawrence Univ.  X7lw.slumus.bitnet          Eric Rode '97

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 21:24:45 -0500
From:    William Eldridge <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: movies

Rusty Divens writes of William Wyler's 1946 masterpiece, "The Best Years
of Our Lives":

> The most heartbreaking scene is when Dana Andrews is wandering
> among the de-militarized aircraft stacked on their noses...and climbs
> in an old B-17 right before the wreckers get to her.

One of the many great things about this movie is the classic musical score
by Hugo Friedhofer. In one of the longest musical sequences in the film,
Friedhofer uses the nostalgic, bittersweet, "heroic" title theme as
Andrews' bombardier character climbs into the stripped plane. When he sits
in the nose, the camera views the plane from outside. In closeup shots,
the propeller-less engines cseem to START UP -- but the effect is purely
orchestral. As the camera zooms in on a sweating Andrews, the music gets
more and more intense (with a theme heard 2 hours before during Andrews'
war nightmares) and the plane seems to TAKE OFF. Suddenly the spell is
broken as a foreman shouts something like, "Hey, Buddy! What are you doing
in there?"

Of course, the foreman gives him a job.

-- Bill Eldridge

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 21:01:52 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: WWII-L Closing on 18 March.

Larry:

I am very disappointed to hear of the closing of this list.

When I first joined, I was very much impressed with the high level of
scholarhsip I could count on -- much better than on any other list.
But I must admit that I believe the list has gone to h... in just the
last few weeks.  It has degenerated into semantic arguments, and would
better be called trivia 101.  That I regret very much.

I learned a great deal from the list, and enjoyed communicating personally
with individuals who were eager to help me.

Best wishes to you and I eagerly look forward to joining its successor --
hoping that the high degree of scholarship which once characterized this
list will return.

George Bauer
U.S.A.:  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 21:38:17 CST
From:    Steve Alvin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Swastika decals, etc.

As someone has pointed out, the swastika is banned in Germany.
Modeling is an international business and also very popular
in Germany.  Many of the Revell/Monogram kits you buy at the
hobbyshop are from a German franchise.  It makes economic
sense to either "split" the swastika as Hasegawa does or
just eliminate it completely, as Revell has done.

As a hard-core modeler this doesn't bother me.  I have plenty
os swastikas in my spares box and, if necessary there are
after market decal sheets avaliable.  Most modelers I've
talked to at IPMS meeting feel the same.  For the person just
getting into the hobby the lack of the swastika will not
detract from the challenge of building the kit.  As they
mature as a modeler, they can get a after market decal sheet
to supply any needs they have.

--
Steve Alvin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 13 Mar 1994 16:24:42 EST
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor,
         Marist Coll" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: Where are you?

Hi List Folks: I have not received any messages for the past two
days which is very unusual since I have been getting 30 to 40 a day
as topics heat up. Is the list in a glitch or is the problem on my end
with the Marist mainframe? Would someone in the know please advise?
Thank you

Jonah Triebwasser
Adjunct Instructor
Marist College
Dyson Building (Adult Education)
Poughkeepsie, New York12601
Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
E-Mail: [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 14 Mar 1994 20:21:45 EST
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor,
         Marist Coll" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: Where is anybody please!

Larry (aka the list-meister): I know that you wanted to retire
but have you shut down the list? I have not seen any list messages for
3 days. I would ask my campus computer people if the problem is local,
but they seem to be away for spring break.
Please advise - Thank you - Jonah

Jonah Triebwasser
Adjunct Instructor
Marist College
Dyson Building (Adult Education)
Poughkeepsie, New York12601
Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
E-Mail: [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 13 Mar 1994 23:29:48 -0500
From:    Stan Koper <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HOME: Re: Rosey The Riveter

Sidney Kitchel said:

>         My mother was a Rosy at the Douglas bomber plant in Tulsa. She
> worked first as a mechanic and then as an inspector. Don't be fooled
> into thinking that everything was all happy and ERAish about women's
> employment. They had trouble with acceptance by male employees and by
> discimination by bosses. My mother became an inspector after a
> dispute with Douglas. She like many other women were carrying a full
> load but not being credited for doing so. She was performing all the
> duties of an "A mechanic", but only being paid as a "B". In fact, no
> woman during the war ever was recognized as an "A" at the plant. My
> mother finally had had enough and said either pay me for what I'm
> doing or I'll quit. Douglas never gave in, but my mother did not quit
> because of the war needs. Rather, she became an inspector -- a job
> in which women often could perform better than men.
>

I believe it was GE in Schenectady, NY, that took a "hit" after
the war because they had established a two-track pay setup, one
for men and another, lower for women--although the work was the
same.  Some women filed suit, and after a number of years, they
won.

Stan Koper
[email-masked]

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------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 13 Mar 1994 to 14 Mar 1994
*************************************************