Subject: WWII-L Digest - 29 Mar 1994 to 30 Mar 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 1994 00:01:16 -0500

There are 54 messages totalling 1590 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. INF: USAAF 30 MAR 44 (2)
  2. System Crash at West Point
  3. CFV: soc.history.war.{misc,world-war-ii} (2)
  4. Luftwaffe women pilots? (4)
  5. Tora Tora Tora (6)
  6. re : Early jets
  7. INF: TBO
  8. WEAP: Early Jets (3)
  9. WEAP: Fieseler Fi-103R
 10. Russian B-29
 11. Mystery B-17 (24)
 12. Re[2]: Tora Tora Tora (2)
 13. Dolittle Raiders (2)
 14. CFV: soc.history.war...
 15. Re[2]: Mystery B-17
 16. Daimler-powered Spitfire information
 17. Jets (Was: Re: MOVIE)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 07:01:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USAAF 30 MAR 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
THURSDAY, 30 MARCH 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): 6 P-51s hit Anisakan Airfield, Burma.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 2 B-24s fly a sea sweep from Kunming, China
around Hainan Island, and across the Gulf of Tonkin to Nam Dinh, French
Indochina; en route, a freighter is strafed; 1 B-24s bombs spinning mills at
Nam Sinh, causing considerable damage.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 285: In The Netherlands,
24 P-47 fighter-bombers escorted by 50 other P-47s dive-bomb Eindhoven and
Sosterburg, Airfields without loss; 22 other P-47s strafe Venlo and Deelen
Airfields and Twente/Enschede Airfield, Germany; they claim 1-0-0 Luftwaffe
aircraft in the air and 1-0-2 on the ground; 1 P-47 is lost and 3 damaged; 1
pilot is MIA.
  Mission 286: 6 of 6 B-17s drop 300 bundles of leaflets on Rouen, Rennes,
Reims, Paris and Amiens, France at 2125-2155 hours without loss.
  HQ 93d Combat Bombardment Wing (Heavy) moves from Elveden Hall to
Mendlesham, England; groups will be assigned in May 44.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): IX Engineer Command is formally
activated by the War Department with Brigadier General James B Newman as
Commanding General.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 463d Bombardment Group (Heavy)
with B-17s becomes the 15th bomber group declared operational by the
Fifteenth Air Force.
  Nearly 350 B-17s and B-24s bomb marshalling yards at Sofia, Bulgaria and an
industrial complex and airfield at Imotski, Yugoslavia. Escorting fighters
and the bombers claim 13 enemy fighters shot down; 4 bombers are lost.
  777th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 464th Bombardment Group (Heavy) arrives
at Pantanella Airfield, Italy from the US with B-24s; first mission is 30
Apr.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s hit the harbor at
Leghorn and railroad bridge NW of Orte; P-40s and A-36s attack an ammunition
dump NW of Roccasecca, trucks and supply dump NE of Tivoli and near Fumone
and Gaeta, railroad bridges SE of Civita Castellana and NW of Stimigliano and
Orvieto and motor transport N of Cori and at scattered points.
  64th Fighter Squadron, 57th Fighter Group, moves from Cercola, Italy to
Alto, Corsica with P-47s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-24s from Kwajalein and
Eniwetok Atolls hit Truk Atoll before dawn. B-25s from Kwajalein and Tarawa
Atolls strike Wotje, Mille, Jaluit and Maloelap Atolls.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): 11 B-24s fly a long-range
strike against Moen Island in Truk Atoll; the B-24s score damaging hits on
the airfield and claim 11 fighters shot down; 1 B-24 is lost; this raid
follows a snooper strike by 2 B-24s the previous night. In the Rabaul area of
New Britain Island, 10 P-38s hit the SW part of the town with incendiaries
while 24 B-25s pound nearby Wunapope. On Bougainville Island, fighters and
B-25s, operating mainly in pairs, hit a supply area on the Mupeka River and
Japanese-occupied areas at the mouths of Puriata and Mamaregu Rivers;
fighter-bombers continue to support ground forces along the Empress Augusta
Bay perimeter hitting a bivouac and truck park at Numa Numa, fords across the
Hongorai River, and a bridge across the Puriata River.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 60+ B-24s,
with support from more than 90 P-38s and P-47s, hit Hollandia in the first
big daylight raid; airfields and fuel dumps are bombed; a large number of
enemy aircraft are destroyed or damaged on the ground; escorting fighters
claim about 10 interceptors shot down; B-25s, A-20s, P-47s, P-40s, and P-39s
continue to blast Japanese installations and forces in areas around Wewak,
Tadji and Madang.
  Moves in New Guinea: HQ 91st Photographic Wing (Reconnaissance) to Nadzab
from the US; and 342d Fighter Squadron, 348th Fighter Group, from Finschhafen
to Saidor with P-47s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 07:18:29 EST
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <[email-masked]>
Subject: System Crash at West Point

wwii-listers,

Hi!  Our host crashed yesterday, and it ended up wiping out my mailbox.
So, if I didn't get a chance to respond to anyone, please accept my
apologies.

If you have a message for me, please re-post or send it b/c.

Thanks,

Bear

Barrett F. Lowe               RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, West Point  (e-mail:  [email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 06:50:03 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: CFV: soc.history.war.{misc,world-war-ii}

> > -=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> > soc.history.war.* Ballot    <SHW-0001> (Don't remove this marker)
> >
> > Give your real name here: Terry Moore
> >
> > [Your Vote]  Group
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > [  yes       ]  soc.history.war.world-war-ii (moderated)
> > [         ]  soc.history.war.misc
> > -=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 07:09:38 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Luftwaffe women pilots?

Hello, Gudmundur!

>         Terry Moore wrote about some Luftwaffe pilot who flew the manned
> version of the V-1 named HANNA Reitsch. I ask was that a woman? The
> first name seems to suggest so. If not, did the Luftwaffe employ women
> as pilots? The Russians did (2 made ace I think).

    Yes. Hanna Reitsch was a female pilot. She died at the age of 67
of stomach cancer some years ago. She was also the first woman to
pilot a helicopter and the only woman to hold the title of
"Flugkapitaen".

   Women were not employed, as a rule, to fly aircraft in the
Luftwaffe in WWII.

    All the best.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 08:20:48 -0500
From:    "W. C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Tora Tora Tora

I will have to go back thru my magazine collection but I have
a copy of (I think) AMERICAN CINEMATOGRAPHER that has a whole article
about Tora-Tora-Tora.  Most of the 'Pearl Harbor' destruction scenes
were done using 1/10 scale miniatures in a tank.  The 'ships' actually
had people in them, sometimes laying down and peering thru slits.
It was back-lot work in Hollywood.  But very impressive
in its conception.

The ariel footage was all shot over Pearl Harbor using replicas and
vintage models that staged from Barber's Point and also Ford Island.

The P-40's burned at Wheeler were mock ups placed on the Wheeler
flight line.

the movie was unique in that it was a co-production between US and
Japan.  There was a partial mock-up of the Akagi built as well as a
mock-up of a Japanese battleship.  The scenes of Japanese carriers on the
way to Pearl were all models (you can tell by the smoke).  I will have
to check to determine just where the Japanese mock-ups were built, but
I think it was in Tokyo Bay.

It was a grand production, and very costly.  It did not recoup production
costs for a long time.  A lot of the footage was spliced into MIDWAY...and
it also occasionally shows up in other movies and shows.  I recall seeing some
of it in the TV miniseries PEARL (starring Angie Dickinson and Dennis Weaver)
that came out back in 90.

Bill
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 15:30:00 CET
From:    Peter de Lange <[email-masked]>
Subject: re : Early jets

Here a list of the 32 first jet/rocket powered aircraft in the world.
supplemented with the first of other countries.

Source : Jet Aircraft of the world. Green & Cross
         80 years Rusian Aircraft.(Dutch) W.Schoenmaker
         RAF Flying Review

      Date Aircraft                     Ctr engine    remark

  -12-1910 Coanda                       Rum jet       1
  -06-1939 Heinkel He-176               D   rocket
24-08-1939 Heinkel He-178               D   jet
27-08-1940 Caproni-Campini N.1          I   jet
05-04-1941 Heinkel He-280               D   jet
   04-1941 Messerschmitt Me-163         D   rocket    2
15-05-1941 Gloster G-40 (E.28/39)       GB  jet
15-05-1942 Bereznjak & Isaev BI-1       SU  rocket
18-07-1942 Messerschmitt Me-262         D   jet       3
01-10-1942 Bell P-59 Airacobra          USA jet
05-03-1943 Gloster G-41 Meteor          GB  jet
26-09-1943 De Havilland DH-100 Vampire  GB  jet
10-06-1944 Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star  USA jet
15-06-1943 Arado Ar-234                 D   jet
  -04-1944 Fieseler Fi-103  ("V-1")     D   jet       4
  -06-1944 Messerschmitt Me-328         D   jet
05-07-1944 Northrop MX-324              USA rocket
16-08-1944 Junkers Ju-287               D   jet
   09-1944 Oka                          J   rocket    5
   09-1944 Junkers Ju-284               D   rocket
06-12-1944 Heinkel He-162               D   jet
   01-1945 Horton Ho-IX                 D   jet
25-01-1945 McDonnell FH-1 Phantom       USA jet
25-02-1945 Bell XP-83                   USA jet
   03-1945 Bachem Ba-349 Natter         D   rocket
07-08-1945 Nakajima J8N1 Kikka          J   jet
12-09-1945 Northrop P-79                USA jet
21-12-1945 Convair P-81                 USA jet
28-02-1945 Republic P-84 Thunderjet     USA jet
24-04-1946 Mikoyan Mig-9                SU  jet
24-04-1946 Yakovlev Yak-15              SU  jet       6

11-11-1946 Sud-Ouest  SO-6000           F   jet
10-03-1947 Saab-21R                     S   jet
09-08-1947 IAe-27 Pulqui                Ar  jet
10-08-1949 Avro Canada C-102            CND jet
  -10-1950 DAP (A93) Pika               Aus jet
20-05-1951 Fokker S-14 Machtrainer      NL  jet
     -1952 Type-451M                    Yu  jet

Ctr - Country : Ar    Argentinie
                Aus   Australia
                D     Deutschland / Germany
                CND   Canada
                F     France
                GB    Great Britain
                I     Italia
                J     Japon
                NL    Nederland
                Rum   Rumenia
                S     Sweden
                SU    Sovjet Union
                USA   USA
                Yu    Yugo-Slavia

rem-1 Coanda. He was a Rumenian and flew in France.
      His plane was showed in oct-1910 on the Parish salon.
      It was a biplane with engine in the nose.
      His first flight, comfirmed by Coanda himself, in December ended
      in a crash.

rem-2 Me-163, this is the 1e powered flight, the first flights were
      as a glider.

rem-3 Me-262, this is the 1e jet powered flight, the first flights
      were an year earlyer with a piston engine in the nose.

rem-4 Fi-103, this is a piloted version of the "V-1"

rem-5 Oka   , a kamikaze aircraft, over 700 built.

rem-6 Yak-15, flew a few hours later then the Mig-9 on the same airfield

Peter de Lange

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 08:29:12 EST
From:    Bill Vasilion <[email-masked]>
Subject: Tora Tora Tora

         Hi all a book you may want to get just to read about the movie
  making of Tora tora tora.. is Richard Fleischer, Tell Me when to
   cry. He was an excutive with the film and he writes about some of the
   problems with getting the movie boats to look right. He tells of
   problems with the Japanese director Kuraswa (sp) and what this director
    had built. It is toward the end of the book but worth looking for in
    your libraries as I found it in the new book section in my library.

                     bill  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 15:45:55 MET-1
From:    Bognar Attila <[email-masked]>
Subject: CFV: soc.history.war.{misc,world-war-ii}

-=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
soc.history.war.* Ballot    <SHW-0001> (Don't remove this marker)

Give your real name here: Attila Bognar

[Your Vote]  Group
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
[YES         ]  soc.history.war.world-war-ii (moderated)
[NO         ]  soc.history.war.misc
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------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 08:46:52 -0500
From:    "W. C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: TBO

The term TBO in the posting about jet engines referrs to
Time Between Overhaul.

For recips, it was up in around the 1000 hour mark.  For the
first jets, it was around 30-50 hours.  The current jet engines
go several thousand hours between full overhauls.

Interestingly, the WWI recips also had a TBO of 25-50 hours.

Bill
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 08:53:43 -0600
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Tora Tora Tora

> .......... Going back to "Tora Tora Tora" does anyone know
> where the actual battle sequencies where filmed? Was it actually Pearl Harbor
> itself or somewhere else?
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> John Davis                                             [email-masked]

Hi John,

TTT was filmed in Hawaii.  A friend of mine from high-school was
there during the filming.  There is even one scene where the Japanese
planes are flying by a mountain and you can see a white memorial
which stands out against the green mountain where one of the planes
>from the original raid had crashed.

He told me that for some of the people who were there the first time
were really creeped out when they saw those meatball bespeckled
planes buzzing around again.

Cheers, Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 09:27:11 EST
From:    Jorge Merino <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: Early Jets

Peter de Lange wrote:

> Here a list of the 32 first jet/rocket powered aircraft in the world.
> supplemented with the first of other countries.

------ list deleted ------

A very good list, but here are missing some of the aircraft mentioned in
Emmanuel Gustin list. For example:

- Bolkhovitinov BI (unpowered flight, as stated)
- Ryan FR-1 Fireball (mixed powered)
- Mikoyan-Gurevich I-250 (mixed powered)

Maybe these aircraft were not considered because they were either flown
unpowered or they were mixed-powered aircraft (not full jets). However,
the list includes the Convair XP-81. It was also a mixed powered aircraft.

Here are some other early jets. I don't remember dates, but I'm almost sure
they were first flown in the 40's:

- Arado E-337 (unmanned bomb, derivated from the Ar-234)
- Henschel He-132 (1945, dive bomber. I'm not sure if it was ever flown)
- Custiss XF15C (1945 mixed powered)
- Douglas XB-43
- North American B-45 Tornado
- Convair XB-46 (1947?)
- Boeing B-47 Stratojet (1947)
- Nortrop YB-49 (1949?)
- Grumman XF9F Panther (1947)
- McDonnell F2H Banshee (1947?)
- North American XP-86 Sabre (1947?)
- Curtiss XP-87 Blackhawk (1947?)
- Bell XS-1 (later X-1, rocket powered)
- Hawker Sea Hawk (1949?)

Three prototypes of the He-132 dive bomber were built, but they were captured
by the russian. I don't know if they have ever flown.

The Curtiss XF15C was a mixed powered fighter for the US Navy. It was powered
by a Pratt & Withney R-2800-34W, 2100 hp radial engine and an Allis-Chalmers
H-1B, 1225 kg jet engine. The first flight was made on February 27, 1945
(without the jet engine), and the tests continued until 1946, when the project
was abandoned.

The famed F-86 Sabre was first flown in the 40's (I think 1947). The XB-46
was abandoned because the Air Force prefered the Boeing B-47. The XP-87
(later XF-87) was also cancelled after competition with the Northrop F-89
Scorpion.

There were also the Hawker Hunter ancestors (P.xxxx, I don't remember the
numbers), that may be flown in late 40's or early 50's.

My two cents,

Jorge

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 10:09:06 EST
From:    Jorge Merino <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: Fieseler Fi-103R

The Fieseler Fi-103R (Reichemberg), was the manned version of the V-1 bomb.
It was intented to improve the accuracy of this missile, specially for high
priority targets. It was built in four versions:

Fi-103R-I   - Unpowered version
Fi-103R-II  - Basic trainer
Fi-103R-III - Advanced trainer
Fi-103R-IV  - Operational aircraft

It had to be flown near the target. Then, the pilot had to dive the missile
and eject. (I wonder about ejecting over enemy territory).

About 175 operational missiles were built, until the production and further
development was cancelled in late 1944, because of the unreliability of the
ejection system. The cockpit was just in front of the jet intake, so, after
ejection, the pilot would be in a very dangerous position.

My two cents,

Jorge

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 10:01:00 -0500
From:    DAVID WILMA 415-744-2485 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Russian B-29

          Couldn't this be a bomber from the campaign against Japan?  As I
          recall, there were B-29 crews interned by the Sovs after they
          landed in Siberia.  Maybe this is one the crew abandoned in the
          air.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 10:03:00 -0500
From:    DAVID WILMA 415-744-2485 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Luftwaffe women pilots?

          Hanna was protrayed in one of the films on the V-1 episode.  AS I
          recall she was, like Leni Riefenstahl, a favorite of Hitler and a
          very good pilot.  I even think she managed to be interviewed for
          a higher quality WWII documentary done in the 80's.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 09:35:06 -0600
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Tora Tora Tora

Wasn't the American-Japanese film cooperation supposed to
  continue in the Battle of Midway film, but the Japanese
  backed out?

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 17:43:50 CET
From:    "LTC Donnell, Doug" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: USAAF 30 MAR 44

Jack and all -
I absolutely love to read the daily USAAF reports -- thanks so much for
putting them on the list.  One little comment on today's summary --
Eindoven, Soesteberg, Venlo, Deelen, and Twente/Enschede are in the
Netherlands, not Germany (I'll bet you were just checking to see it
we really read it all).

I'm fascinated by the numbers of bombers in these attacks -- hundreds
every day.  Our current Air Force is moving rapidly toward a TOTAL
bomber population of about 100.  (Though, admitedly, "tactical" aircraft
tend to be able to carry a pretty potent bomb load these days).

Thanks again, Jack, for the effort.  BTW are you involved with the AACS
reunion group?  My father was in AACS and president of the reunion  gp
for a year.
                            Tschuss aus Deutschland,

                                 Doug Donnell

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 17:49:21 CET
From:    "LTC Donnell, Doug" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Tora Tora Tora

John,
As several people have said, it was filmed in Hawaii.  One of my former
bosses was there at the time and said that the film crew used quite a few
US military as extras (himself included).
                       Doug Donnell

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 08:27:40 PST
From:    "Jones, Scott T." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Mystery B-17

     Does anyone out there recall a story of a B-17 which landed at an
     airfield in England sans crew? Apparently the crew bailed out with the
     bomber on auto-pilot and the plane managed to make it back to the
     airfield. Can anyone convince me that I am not one tree short of a
     hammock? Does anyone know of any other bizarre tales of that nature
     from the war?

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 08:50:42 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Mystery B-17

You can safely stay in your hammock, as there was, indeed, such an
unmanned landing by a B-17 in England during WW2.
        Not really any "mystery", though. The plane's aircrew had
safely baled out some time before the B-17 somehow landed itself
on a British airfield.
        Later, of course, the "mystery" speculation started, with
stories hinting at a sort of airborne MARY CELESTE event.
        At the time, there was far more excitement about another
"runaway" B-17 -- the *intentionally* un-manned plane designed as
a flying bomb, aimed at Heligoland but which decided on its "own"
to fly the other direction, all across England, until finally shot
down by the RAF over the Irish Sea.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 08:15:51 PST
From:    "Jones, Scott T." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re[2]: Tora Tora Tora

     With regards to the re-use of film footage...

     I remember watching the TV series "Baa Baa Blacksheep" (with William
     Conrad as "Pappy" Boyington) and seeing the same wing mounted 50 cals
     shooting down the same Zeroes (actually T-6 Texans) each week.

     The movie "Final Countdown" has a nuke carrier (Enterprise?) going
     back through time to Pre-Pearl Harbor days and shooting down the same
     "Zeroes" again!

     You'd think that after having been shot down 50-plus times, the
     Emperor would find a desk for those Zero drivers!

     Scott Jones
     [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 09:07:51 -0800
From:    "Office TH325, Extension 3566" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Mystery B-17

Scott,

>     Does anyone out there recall a story of a B-17 which landed at an
>     airfield in England sans crew? Apparently the crew bailed out with the
>     bomber on auto-pilot and the plane managed to make it back to the
>     airfield. Can anyone convince me that I am not one tree short of a
>     hammock? Does anyone know of any other bizarre tales of that nature
>     from the war?

Martin Caidin in "Flying Forts: The B-17 in World War II", p10-11 of the
forward describes the incident.  He gives November 23, 1944 as the date
and the location as a few miles southeast of Brussels.  The witnesses
were a British antiaircraft unit and it landed in a plowed field.  This
accounts says that the parachutes were still found on board.

John Riegsecker
Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
University of Puget Sound

[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 11:31:43 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <[email-masked]>
Subject: Dolittle Raiders

Some years ago, crew number 13 was still intact.  Does anyone know if this
is still the case?  And where these people might be now?

Thanks.

  =========================================================================
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  =========================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 13:45:38 -0500
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Mystery B-17

Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]> writes:
> You can safely stay in your hammock, as there was, indeed, such an
> unmanned landing by a B-17 in England during WW2.
>         Not really any "mystery", though. The plane's aircrew had
> safely baled out some time before the B-17 somehow landed itself
> on a British airfield.

        I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to aircraft, but I find it rather
mysterious that a B-17 could land by itself.  It seems like many controls must
be adjusted in order to land successfully.  The wording of all the responses
so far implies that it didn't crash or run out of fuel.  I wouldn't think
that such a craft would be a very good glider in any event.  Were auto-pilot
mechanisms that sophisticated?  Also, why did the crew bail out if the plane
was "landable"?  This sounds like there's a pretty interesting story behind
the facts.
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
Look, when we was in the bocage country, we was assaulted by them Tigers!
You know what I mean by assaulted, hunh?!  Well, I mean assaulted!!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 14:14:43 EST
From:    Incredulous <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Mystery B-17

Re. the landing of a B-17 sans crew.
What we have here is an English Channel Triangle!  I would particularly
like additional substantiation on this one.  When, where, what, witnesses,
uzw?  Was there damage to the craft?  Was it powered or glide flight?  Landing
gear down?  Coffee pot still hot and dinner on the table?

Facts, we need facts.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 19:24:01 +0000
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Mystery B-17

Hey all

        Interesting stories about those "homesick" B-17's :) This seems
to be quite common in aviaton. There was an incident in Finland where a
MIG-23 (I think) was found after days of searching, The fighter was
found almost untouched on it's wheels :) Quite incredible really.

Did these B-17 land on their wheels?

Gudmundur J. Helgason                      E-mail:    [email-masked]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patriotism is the arrogance of assuming that your country is the greatest
one there is, simply because *you* were born there :)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 14:24:44 -0500
From:    "W. C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Mystery B-17

>        I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to aircraft, but I find it rather
>mysterious that a B-17 could land by itself.  It seems like many controls must

Not at all surprising.  Keep in mind that at bailout time, the pilot,
wanting to be one of the survivors, will trim the aircraft for level
flight.  Being inherently stable, the plane will fly itself and as
the engines start to cut out, will start to descend slowly, still in
generally level flight.  In a steady state situation power affects
altitude as much as it does airspeed.

These events are not unique to B-17's.  There have been many examples
of careless pilots hand-propping (pulling the prop to start) private
aircraft.  htey suddenly start up and take off with an empty cockpit...
fly around till fuel is exhausted...and land with little or no damage.
In fact, my first instructor intimated, after my first landing, that
the plane would have suffered less had it landed with the cockpit
empty.  :^)

Bill
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 14:44:38 -0500
From:    "John E. Kollar" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Tora Tora Tora

In the Final Countdown, the Carrier is removed back to present time
before anyone gets killed.  The strike is in the air, but the F14s don't
launch missiles, then they get sucked into the giant blue whirpool.

                        John E. Kollar
ps
        I wanted to see what a brace of Harpoons could do to the Akagi:)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 13:48:14 CST
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Dolittle Raiders

> Some years ago, crew number 13 was still intact.  Does anyone know if this
> is still the case?  And where these people might be now?

In two weeks, they should all be in Fresno, CA.

I know one of our B-25 crew members will be able to research who remains
of that crew and where they may be today...

The number is beginning to dwindle rapidly.  :-(

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
[email-masked]                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 14:59:11 EST
From:    RCC_SAR <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Mystery B-17

Re. Mystery B-17

I have been kicking around aircraft for some 35 years and have never known one
to land itself without major damage.  The only ones that survive relatively
intact that I have seen or known of were ridden down by pilot and/or crew.

Some years ago I was involved in a situation in which an aircraft was flying on
automatic pilot with both pilot and co-pilot rendered incapable because of a
problem with their oxygen.  The RCC sent up an F-16 to investigate.  The F-16
followed the aircraft until it ran out of fuel.  The engines did not lose power
gradually, they quit suddently as most of us have experienced with car engines
where there may be some spuddering but not gradual loss of power.  The aircraft
in consideration immediately went into a steep spiral and spun out of control
into the sea.

Also would not the loss of engine power shut down control systems, i.e.,
hydraulics, servo motors, and so forth?

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 15:35:03 -0500
From:    Ronald A Wilson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Mystery B-17

     Does anyone know of any other bizarre tales of that nature from the
     war?

     ***********************************************************

     I recall 2 stories from a great book re the B-17 about how one
     was damaged and landed on a stretch of
     Autobahn and taxied @80+ mph for some distance to get as far
     west as possible before evacuating the plane.  The other is the
     story of the tail gunner who rode the tail section of his
     bomber down to a smooth landing.  When he stepped out, only the
     vertical and horizontal stabilizers and a bit of plane body was
     to be seen.  Seems the tail would tumble some, then glide some,
     then tumble.  The book is super, hardback with lots of
     pictures. I'm sure the name and author are instantly known to
     most of the list; unfortunately though, I have forgotten the
     bibliographic details.

     Ron Wilson  [email-masked]
     Seattle

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 15:41:02 -0500
From:    "W. C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Mystery B-17

>followed the aircraft until it ran out of fuel.  The engines did not lose power
>gradually, they quit suddently as most of us have experienced with car engines
>where there may be some spuddering but not gradual loss of power.  The aircraft
>in consideration immediately went into a steep spiral and spun out of control
>into the sea.

I believe the B-17 did not feed all engines from the same fuel tank
simultaneously.  Therefore there would not be a simultaneous shut
down.  Somebody's gotta have a B-17 manual out there...look for fuel
crossfeed capabilities and the like, ok?

Many modern aircraft designers believed the ability to feed each
engine differently was inherently dangerous and complicated.  In
addition, there was no reason to believe that your fuel tanks
would be torn up with fast moving lead, either.  So most aircraft
now have much more simplified fuel systems and a multi-engine
craft could quire possibly lose all power at the same time.

As for gliding capability, it all depends on the aircraft....some are
more inherently stable than others.  The B-17 is exquisitely self-
stabilizing.  Of course, there is most probably an autopilot
involved with this B-17.  If it was electric (or electro-pneumatic)
it would work pretty well right up to the end.

>Also would not the loss of engine power shut down control systems, i.e.,
>hydraulics, servo motors, and so forth?

Probably...IF the engine power was lost completely, and if it was the
engine with the hydraulic pump.  But then again, those old birds did
not need all the frills and gadgets they have today.  And they all
did have an autopilot.

I think the conceptual problem we have here is with the landing.  Do
not imagine this as the equivalent of a controlled landing on Runway
28...

Looking at a wartime map of Merrie Ol' England, it would be hard to
imagine falling out of the sky and NOT hitting an airfield!  So what
we have here is a case where the aircraft came to earth on an airfield
and sustained minor damage.  In Wartime...'minor' damage was not the
same as it is now.  It could have been torn up rather bad...but still
serviceable and logged in as 'minor' damage.

Bill
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 12:50:54 -0800
From:    "Office TH325, Extension 3566" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Mystery B-17

>Re. the landing of a B-17 sans crew.
>What we have here is an English Channel Triangle!  I would particularly
>like additional substantiation on this one.  When, where, what, witnesses,
>uzw?  Was there damage to the craft?  Was it powered or glide flight?  Landing
>gear down?  Coffee pot still hot and dinner on the table?
>
>Facts, we need facts.

An elaberation of my previous post.  This is copied from Flying Forts:
The B-17 in World War II, by Martin Caidin.  I can't vouch for its
authenticity.  He is quoting John V. Crisp, a British officer.  Copied
without permission

On November 23, 1944, the aircraft-spotters of a British antiaricraft
unit, located a few miles southeast of Brussels were astonished to see a
B-17 Flying Fortress approaching ther gun site with its undercarriage
down and losing height rapidly.  They called the Troop Commander
immediately and almost at one the B-17 landed on the rough plowed field
where the guns were dug in, bouncing along to within thirty yards of
them  At the last moment one wing tip dipped, catching in the ground and
slewing the plane round.  The airscrew of the outerport engine bauckled
on impact, but the remaining three engines contined to tick over.

Expecting the crew to jump to the ground, the gunners waited to welcome
them but no one appeared and on walking round the plane no sign of life
could be seen.  It was at this point that the Tropp Commander put
through a call to me at my Operations Room at Erps-Querps, near
Cortonburg.  Within twenty minutes I was examining the B-17, not having
had any previous experince of flying machines, and eventually discovered
a way into it underneath the fuselage.  The whole craft was quite deviod
of occupants, althoug evidence of fairly reent occupation was
everywhere.

In order to converse with greater comfort, I climbed into the pilot's
seat with a view to switching off the three engines which continued to
run, and managed, with a certain amount of experiment, to find the
correct switches.  I next looked at the navigator's table.  The aircraft
log was opoen and the words, written some time before, were "Bad Flak."
With curiosity, I traced the flight back from the Ruhr to Letchworth in
Hertfordshire, which by coincidence was my home county, and I wondered
at what could have happened to the crew.

We now made a thorough search and our most remarkable find in the
fuselage was about *a dozen parachutes neatly wrapped and ready for
clipping on.*  This made the whereabouts of the crew even more
mysterious.  The Sperry boumbsight remained in the perspex nose, quite
undamaged, with its cover carefully folded beside it.  Back on the
navigator's desk was the code book giveing the Colours and Letter of the
day for identification purposes.  Various fur-lined flying jackets lay
in the fuselage together with a few bars of chocolate, partly consumed
in some cases.

On close inspection of the B-17 itself no damage could be discovered,
other than that of the port wing which was the result of the rough
landing.  I at once drove to the Operations Room of the 83 Tactical Air
Force situated near Everburg to report the landing and handed in the
navigator's log, the code book and various maps, but the story behind
the arrival of the B1-7, unoccupied, remains a mystery to me this day.

Caidin adds:

Attempts were made, through identification numbers and squadron
assignments, to discover what might have happened to the crew that had
occupied the B-17 prior to its unmanned landing in the open field.  They
have never been found.

John Riegsecker
Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
University of Puget Sound

[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 15:54:16 -0500
From:    Daniel Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Mystery B-17

On Wed, 30 Mar 1994, Gudmundur Helgason wrote:

> Did these B-17 land on their wheels?

I'll be that in Martin Caidin's account it not only landed on its wheels
but went out jitterbugging afterward :)

Regards - Dan Ford   <e-mail: [email-masked]>
                     <postal: 433 Bay Road, Durham NH 03824 USA>
                     <voice or fax: +1-603-868-5850>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 16:03:50 -0500
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Mystery B-17

> From:           "Office TH325, Extension 3566" <[email-masked]>
>
> Attempts were made, through identification numbers and squadron
> assignments, to discover what might have happened to the crew that had
> occupied the B-17 prior to its unmanned landing in the open field.  They
> have never been found.

Possibly a crew member had some type of breakdown? Forced everyone at gun
point to jump sans parachutes? But surely they would have put up a fight and
there would have been some evidence of this. Also, I wonder if any of the
cabin doors (or whatever they are called) were open, unlatched, etc. A really
strange story indeed. Shades of the twilight zone.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                                             [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.                     He's the boogie-woogie bugle boy of Company B.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 16:03:55 -0500
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Mystery B-17

Daniel Ford <[email-masked]> writes:
> > Did these B-17 land on their wheels?
>
> I'll be that in Martin Caidin's account it not only landed on its wheels
> but went out jitterbugging afterward :)

        I take it that Mr. Caidin's credibility is a bit, um, suspect?
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
To a New Yorker like you, a hero is some kind of weird
sandwich, not some nut who takes on three Tigers!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 15:02:23 CST
From:    jesse carnes <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Mystery B-17

But in THIS case, the Flying Fort in question landed in a soft field and
was stopped to a rest when one wheel hit a rut-likesituation in said field.
In fact, the stopping rut spun the plane around to some degree.

If you guys want some great stories to chew on, relate some of Manny Klette's
heroics.  Since I have a file of info. on Manny, I assume that others do as
well ... very seldom have I ever been the 'first-kid-on-the-block' when it
comes to anything!

Oh well.  :-(

Jesse Carnes
[email-masked]
B.R. LA

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 15:11:19 CST
From:    jesse carnes <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Mystery B-17

Dear All on WW@ ;

I stand corrected.
It was the dipping of the wing tip that helped to stop said maverick Flying
Fort.

I must have mixed two stories.  Yipe!

Jesse Carnes
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 23:20:42 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Early Jets

On Wed, 30 Mar 1994, Jorge Merino wrote:

> - Bolkhovitinov BI (unpowered flight, as stated)

This is the same as the Bereznjak & Isaev BI-1. I think that the
designation I gave is correct, but Bereznjak & Isaev is also often
mentioned. The BI made some powered flights too, but I didn't have the
date.

> - Henschel He-132 (1945, dive bomber. I'm not sure if it was ever flown)

Hs 132, of course.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 15:28:41 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Mystery B-17

Hello, Joe!

Martin Caidin in his book "Flying Fortress: The History of the B-17"
gives a very good account of the story you mention, but, I, too,
wonder how that aircraft could have landed itself with no one on
board and on an airfield, no less.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 15:35:08 -0600
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Mystery B-17

>
> If you guys want some great stories to chew on, relate some of Manny Klette's
> heroics.  Since I have a file of info. on Manny......
> Jesse Carnes

Hi Jesse,

Well, bring em out!  I'd like to hear them.

Cheers, Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 15:38:32 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Luftwaffe women pilots?

Hello, David!

>           Hanna was protrayed in one of the films on the V-1 episode.  AS I
>           recall she was, like Leni Riefenstahl, a favorite of Hitler and a
>           very good pilot.  I even think she managed to be interviewed for
>           a higher quality WWII documentary done in the 80's.

    The movie you are thinking of in which Hanna Reitsch was
portrayed, was the movie "Operation Crossbow" with George Peppard, et
al. That is the only movie I have seen that even goes so far as to
treat in a public format those secret manned V-1 trials, in which
several male pilots lost his life. It may be that the real Hanna
Reitsch may have been interviewed for one of the episodes of "World
at War", but I am not certain of that.

    She was a convinced Nazi to the day of her death. She never
married, and it has been said that her real love was Adolf Hitler,
and she was most jealous of Eva Braun.

    All the best.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 15:45:38 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Mystery B-17

Hello, Scott!

>      Does anyone out there recall a story of a B-17 which landed at an
>      airfield in England sans crew? Apparently the crew bailed out with the
>      bomber on auto-pilot and the plane managed to make it back to the
>      airfield. Can anyone convince me that I am not one tree short of a
>      hammock? Does anyone know of any other bizarre tales of that nature
>      from the war?

    Yes, I ran across one that I will have to relocate, which will
very easy to do. It will be a lengthy post, but it is interesting.

    More later.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 16:08:23 -0600
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Mystery B-17

>      ................  The other is the
>      story of the tail gunner who rode the tail section of his
>      bomber down to a smooth landing.  When he stepped out, only the
>      vertical and horizontal stabilizers and a bit of plane body was
>      to be seen.  Seems the tail would tumble some, then glide some,
>      then tumble.
>
>    Ron Wilson  [email-masked]

Hi Ron,

I think that guy lives two blocks away from my best friend's parents
house here in San Antonio.  My wife knew him and we were invited to
his house where he told me about the time his plane was shot in half
and he fell to earth inside the tail section.  It came down square on
a haystack and he walked out of it unharmed.

This just has to be the guy.  How many times could something like that
happen?

Cheers, Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 16:41:23 EST
From:    John Sloan <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: CFV: soc.history.war...

Hi folks,  We are getting a lot of votes for the new soc.history.war
newsgroup posted to this list.  I voted yes also. But unless I completely
misunderstand the address methods for the voting posting the ballot to this
list won't do it for you. Just want to warn anyone who otherwise will be
disappointed. I posted to the original notice, which I believe was
[email-masked].  And I got a computer response that the vote was
counted.  so I recommend all who posted to this check your proceedures.  I
could be wrong, but better safe than sorry (cliche of the day)
John sloan

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 16:20:21 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Mystery B-17

Hello, Jesse and Bill!

Jesse, I would like to second Bill's request. They would be
fascinating, I am sure.

Terry
-------------------------------------------------------------------
> > If you guys want some great stories to chew on, relate some of
Manny Klette's
> > heroics.  Since I have a file of info. on Manny......
> > Jesse Carnes
>
> Hi Jesse,
>
> Well, bring em out!  I'd like to hear them.
>
> Cheers, Bill Huber / [email-masked]
>

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 16:25:55 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Luftwaffe women pilots?

Hello, All!

> Terry, if I may....  Yes, Hanna Reitsch was a woman.  She was a sort
> of German Emilia Ehrhart except all her records were set in gliders
> during the 1930s.  She was appointed flight captain by Ernst Udet and
> employed as a test pilot.  She was awarded the Iron Cross 1st and 2nd
> classes by Hitler for her contributions.

    No, problem, Bill. She was the only woman in the Luftwaffe to be
so honored.

 > She piloted the He 293 rocket interceptor and the ME-363
Gigant
> transport (designation ??).  She also piloted versions of the V-1 and
> was instrumental in determining where it was deficient during flight
> tests.

    She was also the first woman to ever fly a helicopter. I have
that on video-tape.

> She was also awarded the only version of the pilots badge in diamonds
> for a female recipient.

    True.

> She accompanied Luftwaffe General von Greim when he was summoned to
> Berlin 26 April 1945 to be appointed Luftwaffe C-in-C.  Her wish was
> to die in the Fuhrerbunker with Hitler but he ordered her and von
> Greim to break out and continue resistance which they did in what can
> only be described as a miracle.
> After the war she continued competing in gliders and in 1962 set up a
> school for gliding in Ghana.  She died in Frankfurt in 1979.

    Yes, of stomach cancer.

> To my knowledge she was the only woman pilot in the Luftwaffe.  Terry
> would probably know better than I.  He probably has her autograph in
> his most impressive files.

    Yes, that is also true. I had the good fortune to correspond with
her shortly before she died. I have a personally and hand-signed
wartime portrait shot of her, wearing the decorations, Bill outlined
above, along with a one page typed letter she sent me at the time.
She was 67 years old.

    Thank you.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 16:27:50 CST
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re[2]: Mystery B-17

The guy who rode the B-17 tail down to a safe landing was Joe Jones, a
tailgunner.  I see in the last edition of 8th Air Force News that he
died on 13 January from a battle with cancer.  He was a major fundraiser
for the 8th AF Hertitage Center in Georgia near Savannah.

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 16:44:07 -0400
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Daimler-powered Spitfire information

Here's a little more information about the captured Spitfire that
was re-engined with a Daimler Benz engine.

The aircraft in question was a Spitfire V, serial number EN830.
It crash landed with minor damage in 1943 and was repaired and
flown by the Luftwaffe for evaluation purposes.  The aircraft
was repainted RLM 70 green on the top surfaces, RLM 65 light
blue undersides, with a yellow rudder and engine cowling and a
black spinner.  Oversized German markings were applied, plus the
radio call letters CJ + ZY added to the fuselage.

The aircraft was popular with the test pilots who flew it.
They reportedly flew it as a sport aircraft on their own time
They liked the improved pilot visibility, faster acceleration,
and smoother takeoff (no tendency to swing like the Bf 109).

After thorough testing with the original Merlin engine, it was
decided to resurrect a 1941 scheme of replacing the Merlin of a
previously captured Spitfire II with an engine from a Bf 109.  This
earlier attempt had been abandoned due to engine mounting problems.

The later attempt was successful, producing a hybrid aircraft
that was extensively tested and compared against a Bf 109G.
Fitted with the same engine and propeller, the Spitfire was found
to be some 25 km/hr slower than the Bf 109G below 3000 meters
altitude, and with equal speeds at higher altitudes.  The Spitfire
was rated the more manueverable of the two, and with more pleasant
handling characteristics.

The aircraft was destroyed during a bombing raid by 8th AF B-17s
on 17 August 1944.

This information came from an old IPMS Update; volume 14, no. 1,
(1978), which has line drawings, but no photographs.  I'm still
searching for the source of the photos.

Dennis E. Sparks
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 15:00:01 +0000
From:    John Behrens <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Tora Tora Tora

On Tue, 29 Mar 1994, DAVID WILMA 415-744-2485 wrote:

>           Although the Victory at Sea footage is genuine U.S. Navy etc.,
>           not all the footage in WWII was on-the-spot.  Lots of stuff was
>           posed or renacted since to get some of those shots the cameraman
>           would have had to been exposed to enemy fire.  If you look
>           closely, F6Fs and TBMs participate in Midway and even some
>           European shots are spliced in.  As for original Midway footage, I
>           think the only cameramen were on the U.S. Ships and on Midway.  I
>           do not recall ever seeing any footage of the Japanese fleet that
>           could have been real.  Don't forget, almost all their carriers
>           were lost.
>
>           I recall that in the U.S. Navy documentary on the Battles around
>           the Philippines, most of the footage was staged.  There are a few
>           real scenes.

I read somewhere,  in the Time-Life books the Epic of Flight series I
think, that, during the battle of Midway, the journalists from the
various mews media used models to simulate battles being fought.  They
would get information on the battle, then simulate it with the models and
photograph it.  I believe this was done due to the enormous distances
covered during the Battle of Midway, and the lack of frontline
journalists.  Anyone know any more?

                                John

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 15:15:02 +0000
From:    John Behrens <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Mystery B-17

On Wed, 30 Mar 1994, RCC_SAR wrote:

> Re. Mystery B-17
>
>
> Also would not the loss of engine power shut down control systems, i.e.,
> hydraulics, servo motors, and so forth?
>
There twarnt any of that stuff on the B-17, outside of the landing gear
and flaps I believe.  The biq question is was the gear up or down.

                                John

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 15:19:55 +0000
From:    John Behrens <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Mystery B-17

On Wed, 30 Mar 1994, Office TH325, Extension 3566 wrote:

> >Re. the landing of a B-17 sans crew.
> >What we have here is an English Channel Triangle!  I would particularly
> >like additional substantiation on this one.  When, where, what, witnesses,
> >uzw?  Was there damage to the craft?  Was it powered or glide flight?  Landing
> >gear down?  Coffee pot still hot and dinner on the table?
> >
> >Facts, we need facts.
>
> An elaberation of my previous post.  This is copied from Flying Forts:
> The B-17 in World War II, by Martin Caidin.  I can't vouch for its
> authenticity.  He is quoting John V. Crisp, a British officer.  Copied
> without permission
>
> On November 23, 1944, the aircraft-spotters of a British antiaricraft
> unit, located a few miles southeast of Brussels were astonished to see a
> B-17 Flying Fortress approaching ther gun site with its undercarriage
> down and losing height rapidly.  They called the Troop Commander
> immediately and almost at one the B-17 landed on the rough plowed field
> where the guns were dug in, bouncing along to within thirty yards of
> them  At the last moment one wing tip dipped, catching in the ground and
> slewing the plane round.  The airscrew of the outerport engine bauckled
> on impact, but the remaining three engines contined to tick over.
>
> Expecting the crew to jump to the ground, the gunners waited to welcome
> them but no one appeared and on walking round the plane no sign of life
> could be seen.  It was at this point that the Tropp Commander put
> through a call to me at my Operations Room at Erps-Querps, near
> Cortonburg.  Within twenty minutes I was examining the B-17, not having
> had any previous experince of flying machines, and eventually discovered
> a way into it underneath the fuselage.  The whole craft was quite deviod
> of occupants, althoug evidence of fairly reent occupation was
> everywhere.
>
> In order to converse with greater comfort, I climbed into the pilot's
> seat with a view to switching off the three engines which continued to
> run, and managed, with a certain amount of experiment, to find the
> correct switches.  I next looked at the navigator's table.  The aircraft
> log was opoen and the words, written some time before, were "Bad Flak."
> With curiosity, I traced the flight back from the Ruhr to Letchworth in
> Hertfordshire, which by coincidence was my home county, and I wondered
> at what could have happened to the crew.
>
> We now made a thorough search and our most remarkable find in the
> fuselage was about *a dozen parachutes neatly wrapped and ready for
> clipping on.*  This made the whereabouts of the crew even more
> mysterious.  The Sperry boumbsight remained in the perspex nose, quite
> undamaged, with its cover carefully folded beside it.  Back on the
> navigator's desk was the code book giveing the Colours and Letter of the
> day for identification purposes.  Various fur-lined flying jackets lay
> in the fuselage together with a few bars of chocolate, partly consumed
> in some cases.
>
> On close inspection of the B-17 itself no damage could be discovered,
> other than that of the port wing which was the result of the rough
> landing.  I at once drove to the Operations Room of the 83 Tactical Air
> Force situated near Everburg to report the landing and handed in the
> navigator's log, the code book and various maps, but the story behind
> the arrival of the B1-7, unoccupied, remains a mystery to me this day.
>
> Caidin adds:
>
> Attempts were made, through identification numbers and squadron
> assignments, to discover what might have happened to the crew that had
> occupied the B-17 prior to its unmanned landing in the open field.  They
> have never been found.
>
> John Riegsecker
> Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
> University of Puget Sound
>
> [email-masked]
>

That is too strange.  Is it just me, or is the Twilight Zone theme
playing in everyones head?

                                John

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 17:30:11 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Mystery B-17

Joe, cannot it be that the facts are themselves the story?
That an aircraft landed on its own is unusual, yes, but hardly mysterious.
There have been several other documented cases of planes somehow managing
to land unmanned. Hope the word "mysterious" does not hint at the occult,
at the paranormal, or whatever. If so, maybe the plane landed controlled
by tarot-cards....
AS for questioning why an aircrew would have baled out of a still-flyable
plane, believe me Joe, it wouldn't have been the first time... :-)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 22:00:13 -0500
From:    Bob Smart <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Early Jets

>
> BTW, If I'm not wrong, the first american jet to operate from an aircraft
> carrier was the McDonnell FH Phantom.
>

I believe the first American jet landing  on a carrier was in a Ryan
FR-1 Fireball.  It was on November 6 1945 on the USS Wake Island.

The FR-1 was equiped with both a jet and a piston engine the above landing toke
place when the piston engine had failed in flight. My reference says that this
was the first carrier landing by a jet propelled aircraft.  That leads me to
believe that it was also before the British.

Bob Smart ([email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 30 Mar 1994 22:04:50 -0500
From:    Bob Smart <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Jets (Was: Re: MOVIE)

> On Mon, 28 Mar 1994, John Behrens wrote:
>
> > missed.  As far as the Me 262 is concerned, I believe it was first
> > designed as a piston engined, prop driven fighter.  I have seen a picture
> > of it with a prop and engine on the front, and clean wings.  Whether it
> > wsa flown in that configuration or not I don't know.  That may explain
> > why the engines were podded instead of designed into the fuselage.  That
> > way they didn't have to do a major redesign on the fuselage.  Just

It sounds like you are remembering photos of the P-59A Airacomet. There was a
fake propeller that was put on it's nose when on the ground for security
purposes. I have seen several photos of it.

Bob Smart ([email-masked])

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 29 Mar 1994 to 30 Mar 1994
*************************************************