Subject: WWII-L Digest - 27 Mar 1994 to 28 Mar 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 1994 00:00:24 -0500

There are 72 messages totalling 2220 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Biannual Army history conference
  2. Naval Institute 120th Annual Meeting
  3. MEDIA: Battle of Britain (2)
  4. Is there a 'Montgomery AFB'? (4)
  5. MOVIE (12)
  6. INF: USAAF 25-27 MAR 44
  7. INF: USAAF 28 MAR 44
  8. Veteran aircraft: to fly or to display
  9. Blackburn
 10. MEDIA: Kwai, the real story (2)
 11. Re[2]: Is there a 'Montgomery AFB'?
 12. Jets (Was: Re: MOVIE) (7)
 13. Gen:Movies--Stalingrad (4)
 14. Heinkel He-112 (3)
 15. INF: AVAILABILITY OF LETTERS HOME
 16. early jets (2)
 17. Panzerfaust (2)
 18. MEDIA: THE FINAL WORD ON D-DAY?
 19. Jets
 20. jets (5)
 21. Schindlers List (2)
 22. NOST: Mitchell spotters out west? (5)
 23. FILM: Stalingrad (4)
 24. Brahms
 25. Jets (Was: Movie)
 26. Aerosphere 1939
 27. Early Jets
 28. Hurricane, Spitfire, P-51, Bf 109
 29. Re[2]: MOVIE (2)
 30. Utah Beach

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Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 00:18:33 EST
From:    John Sloan <[email-masked]>
Subject: Biannual Army history conference

Hi all
The Winter issue of Army Historian has announcement about the 1994 Conference
of Army Historians. It will be 13-16 June in Wash DC area. The contact person
is Dr Judith Bellafaire - Rm 320 US Army Center of Military history, 1099
14th St NW WashDC 20005. phone is 202504 5368.
The theme is US Army in War against Japan 43-45. But there are many sessions
on joint operations as well and participation by marine, air and navy
historians. Most of the conference is open to the public for people who wil
lregister ahead. I attended last one in 92 and found it excellent.
 That issue of Army Historian also has a 11 page bibliography on Desert
Shield - Desert Storm
also a short WWII chronology for April - june 44 and other articles of
interest.
There is an announcement of a WWII Symposium for 20-22 Oct at macArthur
Memorial Museum in Norfold Va. Call Dr Preston Burton at 804-441 2965 for
information.

John Sloan

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Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 00:00:56 CST
From:    Steve Alvin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Naval Institute 120th Annual Meeting

People on the list might be interested in the following sessions
of the Naval Institute's Annual Meeting, to be held at the U. S.
Naval Academy on 27-28 April:

To the Far Shore:  Assault on Normandy
Moderator:  Townsend Hoopes
Panel:  Stephen Ambrose
        John Keegan
        Paul Stillwell
cost:  $40 member, $50 non-member
Time 1:30, $/27

REception, Banquet, & Address:

Overload:  Normandy and Today's Military
John Keegan
Cost:  As above
Time:  6pm

--
Steve Alvin
[email-masked]

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Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 10:32:28 CET
From:    "LTC Donnell, Doug" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Battle of Britain

As several folks have commented, the destroyed planes were mock ups.  However,
the attack on the airfield (filmed at RAF Duxford) involved blowing up an
authentic WWI hanger.
                               Doug Donnell

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Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 10:40:29 CET
From:    "LTC Donnell, Doug" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Is there a 'Montgomery AFB'?

Jesse -
There is no Montgomery AFB, however Maxwell AFB is located about 1 mile
from Montgomery AL.  The base was activated in 1918 and was named for
Lt Wm Maxwell who was killed in an accident in 1920, so it's possible
that the airfield could have been named "Montgomery Field" for a
short time.  Also near Montgomery is Maxwell AFB, Gunter Annex (formerly
called Gunter AFB).  Hope this helps.
                             Doug Donnell

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Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 10:59:46 CET
From:    "LTC Donnell, Doug" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MOVIE

Jonah -
As I recall the Germans were not all that close to getting the A-bomb.
Part of the emphasis on the Manhattan project was fear that the Nazis
would develop an atomic weapon before we did.  It turns out that the
fears were unfounded as they were much farther behind than the Allies
thought.

IMHO, I think the Nazi's biggest gaffe WRT technology was not developing
a jet fighter earlier in the war.  Despite the fact that an ME-262
prototype was flow in (I think??) 1939, Hitler insisted on making it
into a bomber, which was a disaster.  It was not produced as a fighter
until 1944 (at least in any sizable quantities) and by that time
limitations on fuel reduced its impact enormously.  My two cents. . .

                         Doug Donnell

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Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 06:34:23 -0500
From:    Graham Kehily 28-Mar-1994 1310 <"jura::kehily"@JURA.ENET.DEC.COM>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Battle of Britain

I think it was RAF Kenley that was used for the hanger scenes. It's just
south of London, near Croydon (also the site of my first nervous solo
flight, in a Slingsby T.31 open-cockpit glider, half a lifetime ago :-)

Cheers,

Graham.

|    Graham Kehily                                                  |
|    Work:    [email-masked]                              |
|    Home:    [email-masked]                                  |
|    Phone (GSM): [+33] 09 41 23 14   Home/Fax: [+33] 50 42 77 95   |
|    Digital Equipment Corporation, Ferney-Voltaire, 01210 France   |

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 06:58:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USAAF 25-27 MAR 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
25-27 MARCH 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  Beaufighter, Bristol
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

SATURDAY, 25 MARCH 1944

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 2 Shemya Island-based B-24s bomb Kurabu Cape
and the N coast of Onnekotan Island.

  CARIBBEAN (Sixth Air Force): 29th and 31st Fighter Squadrons, XXVI Fighter
Command, begin a movement from Casa Larga, Panama and Howard Field, Canal
Zone respectively, to the US.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 8 B-24s hit Mogaung supply dumps,
causing fires and much smoke; 12 P-40s bomb the Kamaing area; Japanese
aircraft (5 medium bombers and 30 fighters) attack Allied airstrips at
Chittagong and Cox's Bazaar, India and Anisakan, Burma; Tenth Air Force and
Royal Air Force (RAF) interceptors claim 7 aircraft shot down.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 6 B-24s from Chengkung bomb a motor
pool and fuel dump at Mangshih, demolishing a sizeable portion of the target
area.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 406th Bombardment Squadron
(Heavy), VIII Air Force Composite Command (attached to 328th Service Group),
moves from Watton to Harrington, England with B-24s; the squadron began
flying CARPETBAGGER missions in Jan 44.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 140+ B-26s attack the Hirson, France
marshalling yard.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): Weather severely curtails
operations. In Italy, B-26s bomb the Leghorn dockyard and town of Rignano
sull' Amo; P-40 fighter-bombers attack gun positions in the Anzio beachhead
battle area; and fighters fly cover over the Anzio and Cassino areas.
  Moves in Italy: 28th Troop Carrier Squadron, 60th Troop Carrier Group, from
Gerbini, Sicily to Brindisi with C-47s; 415th Night Fighter Squadron, 64th
Fighter Wing, from Marcianise to Pomigliano with Beaufighters.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): Advanced HQ Seventh Air Force in
Tarawa Atoll is disbanded and the Seventh's operations in the C Pacific
forward area are placed under the VII Bomber Command at Kwajalein Atoll.
B-25s from Eniwetok Atoll pound Ponape Island and claim 4 fighters shot down.
B-25s from Abemama Island bomb Maloelap Atoll.
  HQ VII Bomber Command moves from Tarawa Atoll to Kwajalein Atoll.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 23
B-25s pound the Ratawul supply area while 34 fighter-bombers hit Keravia Bay
fuel stores. On Bougainville Island, 20+ fighter-bombers hit a Miwo River
bridge and nearby bivouac area and bomb a truck park W of the Omoi River.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 100+ B-24s,
B-25s, and A-20s continue pounding of the Wewak area, destroying supply dumps
along the coast from Wewak Point to the airfield, a fuel dump W of Boram, and
targets along the Sauri road and in the Cape Wom area; other A-20s attack the
coastal area around Bunabun Harbor; and B-24s bomb the Babo-Urarom area. On
New Britain Island, P-40s attack a Japanese HQ at Cape Hoskins. On Manus
Island, the last major battle takes place; isolated enemy positions remain to
be eliminated.
  Moves in New Guinea with P-38s: 80th Fighter Squadron, 8th Fighter Group,
from Cape Gloucester, New Britain Island to Nadzab; 432d Fighter Squadron,
475th Fighter Group from Dobodura to Nadzab.

SUNDAY, 26 MARCH 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 3 B-24s and 3 B-25s bomb troops
along the Imphal-Tiddim road near Chindwin; 70+ fighter-bombers and a lone
B-25 attack targets in the Mogaung Valley area, including airfields at
Manywet and Myitkyina, and bridges, roads, railroads and targets of
opportunity at Mogaung, Kamaing and Myitkyina; in the Katha area 8 P-51s and
3 B-25s hit a Japanese bivouac NE of Bhamo and claim 6 warehouses destroyed
at Nankan.
  20th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron, Tenth Air Force [attached to 5320th
Air Defense Wing (Provisional)] moves from Guskhara to Kisselbari, India with
P-40s.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 4 B-25s hit the Bakli Bay area on Hainan
Island; 2 merchant vessels are claimed sunk, and damage is done to tracks and
loading equipment. 4 P-40s on a sweep of the N coast of the Gulf of Tonkin
sink an ore boat and damage 4 barges.           '

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 280: V-weapon sites in
France are hit.
  1. 234 of 243 and 138 of 185 B-24s hit 9 sites in the Pas de Calais area; 4
B-17s and 1 B-24 are lost, 1 B-17 is damaged beyond repair and 134 B-17s and
38 B-24s are damaged; casualties are 2 KIA, 15 WIA and 50 MIA.
  2. 128 of 145 B-17s hit 7 sites in the Cherbourg area; 64 B-17s are
damaged.
  Escort is provided by 266 P-47s; they claim 1-1-4 Luftwaffe aircraft on the
ground; 1 P-47 is lost (pilot is MIA) and 5 damaged.
  Mission 281: 6 of 6 B-17s drop 300 bundles of leaflets on Caen, Rennes,
Amiens, Paris and Rouen, France at 2114-2206 hours without loss.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 338 B-26s and 35 A-20s attack the
Ijmuiden, The Netherlands torpedo-boat pens. In France, nearly 140 P-47s and
P-51s dive-bomb Creil marshalling yard and other military installations.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 60+ B-17s and B-24s hit targets
in Italy; the B-17s bomb Fiume docks and shipping; the B-24s hit Maniago
Landing Ground, Udine air depot and Rimini marshalling yard; P-47s and P-38s
provide escort; 150+ other B-17s and B-24s abort missions because of bad
weather.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): Operations are at a minimum as bad
weather continues. In Italy, B-26s score numerous hits on Arezzo viaducts,
B-25s attack the Perugia railway bridge, scoring near misses, and A-20s
successfully bomb troop concentrations N of Velletri; P-47s achieve direct
hits on a railway bridge NW of Stimigliano and near misses on a railway
bridge SW of Tarquinia; and P-40s hit guns near Fontana Liri and N of the
Anzio beachhead with good results.
  HQ 60th Troop Carrier Group moves from Gerbini, Sicily to Brindisi, Italy.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): Eniwetok Atoll-based B-25s
strike Ponape Island; B-25s from Tarawa Atoll hit Jaluit Atoll, rearm at
Majuro Atoll, and hit Jaluit again on the return flight to Tarawa.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 23
B-25s hit Vunakanan Airfield and 37 fighter-bombers attack supply areas along
Talili Bay; B-25s continue to heckle the Rabaul area during the night. In the
Bougainville Island area 3 B-24s and 20 fighter-bombers hit pillboxes and
targets of opportunity on islands off the Tekessi River mouth and near
Monoitu; fighter-bombers again support ground forces along Empress Augusta
Bay, hitting a supply dump N of the Reini River and enemy positions near the
mouths of the Tekessi and Maririei Rivers; the fighter-bombers claim
destruction of a bridge over the Puriata River. 24 B-24s on a mission against
Truk Atoll fail to reach the target and bomb Pulusuk Island, Caroline Islands
instead; several of the B-24s are forced to land on Green Island, Solomon
Islands because of fuel shortages.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 220+ B-24s,
B-25s, A-20s and fighters hit Wewak, Boram, Cape Wom, Aitape, the Hansa Bay
coast, Mushu Island, and the general area along the N coast of NE New Guinea,
blasting storage areas, barges, shipping, grounded aircraft, fuel dumps and
enemy troops; other A-20s hit Bunabun Harbor while P-39s hit the Madang area.
On New Britain Island, P-39s and P-40s attack Cape Hoskins and troops in the
Talasea area. On Manus Island, A-20s hit buildings and Japanese positions
on the S shore.
  431st Fighter Squadron, 475th Fighter Group, moves from Dobodura to Nadzab,
New Guinea with P-38s.

MONDAY, 27 MARCH 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 8 B-24s hit supply dumps at
Kamaing, while about 50 fighter-bombers and 2 B-25s hit troops in in the
Myitkinya area and support ground forces near Kamaing; in the Katha area 12
B-25s and 16 P-38s and P-51s hit a bridge and railroad facilities near Meza
and a railroad near Kawlin.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 6 B-25s pound the Viet Tri, French Indochina
area, damaging 2 factories, a bridge and several railroad cars. In China 60+
P-40s, P-38s, and P-51s attack troops and buildings at Sienning and
Kwanyinchow, hit a bridge, warehouse, and general area at Anyi, damage
bridges at Kienchang and Puchi and pound Nanchang Airfield and surrounding
areas.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 282: Airfields in France
are attacked by 701 bombers.
  1. 285 of 290 B-17s hit the following airfields: St Jean D/Angely (55), La
Rochell/La Leu (59), Chartres (60), Tours/Parcay Meslay Air Depot (74), Usine
Liotard Air Depot (35) and targets of opportunity (2); 1 B-17 is lost and 37
damaged; casualties are 1 WIA and 10 MIA.
  2. 248 of 256 B-17s hit the following airfields: Bordeaux/Merignac (123),
Cayeux (118) and Chartres (7); 2 B-17s are lost and 51 damaged; casualties
are 11 KIA, 2 WIA and 20 MIA.
  3. All 168 B-24s hit the following airfields: Pau/Ont Long (72), Biarritz
(49) and Mont de Marsan (47); 3 B-24s are lost, 4 damaged beyond repair and
18 damaged; casualties are 20 KIA, 1 WIA and 31 MIA.
  Escort is provided by 132 P-38s, 706 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s and
122 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-51s; results are:
  P-38s: 2 lost and 1 damaged beyond repair; 2 pilots are MIA.
  P-47s claim 6-0-2 Luftwaffe aircraft; 5 P-47s are lost, 1 damaged beyond
repair and 4 damaged; 1 pilot is WIA and 5 are MIA.
  P-51s claim 2-0-3 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 30-1-11 on the ground;
3 P-51s are lost and 1 damaged; 3 pilots are MIA.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 18 B-26s attack V-weapon sites in N
France; 35 others abort due primarily to failure of blind-bombing equipment.
The onset of bad weather makes this the last B-26 mission until 8 Apr.
  303d, 305th and 306th Troop Carrier Squadrons, 442d Troop Carrier Group,
arrives at Fulbeck, England from the US with C-47s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, A-20s successfully bomb
the Sesti Bagni railway station; B-26s hit Poggibonsi railway bridge, and
tracks and train cars in the area; and B-25s attack bridges at Marsciano,
Perugia and Grosseto railroad bridges, scoring damaging hits at Grosseto;
P-40s hit a command post and supply dumps, and fly road reconnaissance SE of
Rome with good results; A-36s bomb Sesti Bagni railway station and nearby
trucks, while P-47s attack a bridge, junctions and train cars on the Rome-
Orvieto railroad; and P-47s and P-40s maintain cover over the Cassino and
Anzio battle areas.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-25s and B-24s from Tarawa
Atoll hit Maloelap, Mille and Wotje Atolls; B-25s from Eniwetok Atoll bomb
Jaluit Atoll and strafe and cannonade Ponape Island; and a single B-24 from
Tarawa Atoll bombs Jabor in Jaluit Atoll.
  9th Troop Carrier Squadron, Seventh Air Force, moves from Hickam Field,
Oahu, Territory of Hawaii to Abemama Island with C-47s.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 23
B-25s hit Wunapope with incendiaries; and 34 fighter-bombers follow in rapid
succession with another incendiary strike, leaving the entire vicinity in
flames. 9 P-40s hit fuel dump at the mouth of Tekessi River on Bougainville
Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 200+ B-24s,
B-25s, A-20s, P-47s, P-40s and P-39s attack storage areas, shipping, bridges,
fuel dumps, enemy troop concentrations and other targets in areas around
Wewak, Hansa Bay, Ulipan Harbor, and Madang. Other aircraft carry out sweeps
and armed reconnaissance over New Britain Island and the Bismarck Sea.
  341st Fighter Squadron, 348th Fighter Group, moves from Finschhafen to
Saidor, New Guinea with P-47s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 07:04:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USAAF 28 MAR 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
TUESDAY, 28 MARCH 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  P-61, Northrop Black Widow

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 18th Fighter Squadron, 343d Fighter Group,
moves from Amchitka Island to Attu Island, Aleutian Islands with P-38s.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In the Mogaung Valley of Burma, 8 B-24s bomb
the Kamaing storage area, while 60+ fighter-bombers and 9 B-25s furnish
ground support in the Sumprabum, Mogaung, and Kamaing areas, and bomb storage
and town areas of Manywet, Mohnyin and Kamaing.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 4 B-25s bomb the barracks area at Vinh Yen,
French Indochina, scoring direct hits on 4 buildings.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (XX Bomber Command): HQ XX Bomber Command arrives at
Kharagpur, India from the US.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 283: 2 formations of B-17s
are dispatched to hit airfields in France while B-24s are dispatched to The
Netherlands.
  1. 182 B-17s are dispatched to Dijon/Longvic Airfield (117 bomb) and
Reims/Champagne Airfield (59 bomb); 1 B-17 is damaged beyond repair and 60
damaged; casualties are 3 KIA and 1 WIA.
  2. 191 B-17s are dispatched to Chateaudun Airfield (127 bomb) and Chartres
Airfield (61 bomb); 2 B-17s are lost and 59 damaged; casualties are 1 WIA and
28 MIA.
  3. 77 B-24s are dispatched to the Ijmuiden, The Netherlands E-boat pens but
they are recalled due to excessive clouds and failure of the escort to
takeoff.
  Escort for the B-17s is provided by 46 P-38s, 284 P-47s and 123 P-51s;
details are:
  P-38s: no claims or losses
  P-47s claim 0-0-1 Luftwaffe aircraft.
  P-51s claim 30-1-32 Luftwaffe aircraft on the ground; 3 P-51s are lost; the
pilots are MIA.
  36th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), VIII Air Force Composite Command
[attached to 801st Bombardment Group (Provisional)] moves from Watton to
Harrington, England with B-24s; the squadron flies CARPETBAGGER missions.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Almost 400 B-17s and B-24s, the
largest attack to date, bomb marshalling yards in Italy; the B-17s hit
Verona; the B-24s hit Mestre and Verona marshalling yards and railway and
highway bridges at Fano and Cessno; P-38s and P-40s provide excellent
coverage and no bombers are lost; the bombers and escorts claim 12 fighters
destroyed; 5 US fighters are lost.
  16th Reconnaissance Squadron (Bomber), 68th Tactical Reconnaissance Group
(attached to AAF, MTO), based at Foch Field, Tunisia begins operating from
Foggia, Italy with B-17s.
  781st Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 465th Bombardment Group (Heavy),
arrives at Pantanella Airfield, Italy from the US with B-24s; first mission
is 5 May.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s knock out the
bridge approach E of Perugia and bomb the railway junction and marshalling
yard at Montepescali; B-25s bomb a railway bridge S of Mignano and viaduct to
the SE, and hit Certaldo railway bridge; A-20s attack a tank factory N of
Tivoli; P-40s strike guns in the Anzio area; guns, trucks, and roads during
armed reconnaissance of the Cassino-Giulianello area; and supply dumps and
truck parks near Velletri and Sora; A-36s attack 2 railroad bridges and
tracks at Montalto di Castro and near Orvieto; and fighters carry out a
patrol over the Anzio and Cassino areas.
  Moves in Italy: HQ 87th Fighter Wing from Caserta to Bastia, Corsica; and
HQ 57th Fighter Group and 65th and 66th Fighter Squadrons from Cercola to
Alto, Corsica with P-47s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-25s from Abemama Island and
Tarawa Atoll pound Jaluit, Mille and Maloelap Atolls; a single B-24 from
Kwajalein Atoll, en route to Eniwetok Atoll, bombs Rongelap Atoll, Marshall
Islands; and B-24s, flying a night mission from Kwajalein, bomb targets at
Truk Atoll.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 24
B-25s bomb Tobera Airfield, causing considerable damage to the landing strip;
fighter-bombers hit the Ratawul supply area and SW part of Rabaul. On
Bougainville Island, a few P-40s attack the Numa Numa supply area, a single
B-24 scores damaging hits on the Japanese-held mission at Monoitu, and other
planes hit scattered targets of opportunity.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): B-24s hit Hollandia, New
Guinea and Penfoei, Timor Island.
  Moves in New Guinea: 26th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, 6th
Photographic Reconnaissance Group, from Finschhafen to Nadzab with F-5s;
and 418th Night Fighter Squadron, 308th Bombardment Wing, from Dobodura to
Finschhafen with P-61s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 07:57:56 -0400
From:    QUACK <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Veteran aircraft: to fly or to display

This past Saturday a C-47 was spotted taxing at Bradley International
Airport in Windsor Locks, Connecticut.  Painted brown over-all and had
large white letters on its nose; either BY or PY. Anyone know who owns
this?  As an aside, there is another C-47 or DC-3 flying out of Bradley
probably belonging to a small freight operator as its occasionally seen
flying over my house in Windsor.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 07:58:50 EST
From:    Kurt Luginbyhl <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Is there a 'Montgomery AFB'?

Maxwell AFB in Montgomerey AL. was where the Air War College was 1964-66.
We were stationed there then. Fun time to be in that locale.  Is the A. W.
College still there?   Curious.

H. A. Kurt Luginbyhl
Scientific Computer Specialist
National Museum of Natural History
Washington D.C. 20560

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 07:14:37 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Blackburn

Hello, George!

Sorry to hear about Captain Blackburn. That is an all too frequent
occurrence these days.

Thanks for note.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 07:34:20 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MOVIE

Hello, Jonah!

I would say that the Germans were 3-5 years behind American efforts
to develop the A-bomb. Their research efforts were directed at "heavy
water" experiments which would have given them the bomb in time, but
this process was longer and the product would have had a lower yield
than the uranium bombs we developed.

My two cents' worth anyway.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 07:37:37 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MOVIE

Hello, Doug!

Thanks for the post.

> IMHO, I think the Nazi's biggest gaffe WRT technology was not developing
> a jet fighter earlier in the war.  Despite the fact that an ME-262
> prototype was flow in (I think??) 1939, Hitler insisted on making it
> into a bomber, which was a disaster.  It was not produced as a fighter
> until 1944 (at least in any sizable quantities) and by that time
> limitations on fuel reduced its impact enormously.  My two cents. . .

    Agreed! The Germans actually flew the first jet aircraft ever
developed. It flew in 1937 and was the He-112. The Me-262 was
developed from a glider, but flew early on. It wasn't seriously
considered as a potential jet fighter until 1942.

    Thanks for letting me add my two cents' worth to this.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 08:47:51 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MOVIE

>
> Jonah -
> As I recall the Germans were not all that close to getting the A-bomb.
> Part of the emphasis on the Manhattan project was fear that the Nazis
> would develop an atomic weapon before we did.  It turns out that the
> fears were unfounded as they were much farther behind than the Allies
> thought.
>
> IMHO, I think the Nazi's biggest gaffe WRT technology was not developing
> a jet fighter earlier in the war.  Despite the fact that an ME-262
> prototype was flow in (I think??) 1939, Hitler insisted on making it

Wasn't that the Heinkel, which looked like a straight wing Me262?

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 08:47:54 -0500
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MOVIE

Strange you say the germans flew the first jet plane. I recall (dimly) reading
an article in the National Air/Space Museum about some Frenchman building and
"flying" (Some controversy here) a jet-ish plane long before then.

Am I alone in my memories, or has anybody else read this story?

                                                                Steve

(Liking to read this stuff, never intending to post...Too much of a coward)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 08:51:56 -0500
From:    Daniel Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MOVIE

On Sun, 27 Mar 1994, Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor, Marist Coll wrote:

> Bill - Check out the V1, V2 and the Nazi Jet Bomber exhibits. It is
> frightening how advanced German engineering was at the end of the war.
> Anyone want to speculate how close the Nazi's came to getting the A-Bomb
> and perhaps winning the war? Can you imagine a Nazi A-Bomb at the tip of
> a V2? <Shudder!!!!!!!!!!>
>
Hang on! (as they say in New Zealand). I'm glad you said "German
engineering," but I am always unhappy to see locutions like "Nazi Jet
Bomber exhibit" and "Nazi A-Bomb."

You wouldn't call the US A-Bomb a "Democratic A-Bomb," or a Spitfire a
"monarchist fighter."

If the Germans had built an A-bomb, it would have been launched by German
engineers on behalf of the German army. Though they had a fascist
government that called itself "National Socialist," the vast majority of
Germans were not Nazis, and the Nazis would have gotten nowhere without
the enterprise, energy, patriotism--and gullibility--of the German
nation, however widely defined.

(My two pfennigs worth!)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 09:04:19 -0500
From:    "W. C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA: Kwai, the real story

The A&E "Time Machine" series had/has a rather interesting presentation
running that tells the real story of the 'Bridge on the River Kwai" and
the entire railroad project that was involved.  Pretty nasty stuff, to
local natives and to P.O.W.'s.

What struck me was the somewhat cavalier attitude shown by the Japanese
that were interviewed for the production of this show.  I believe one
was an engineer and one was a guard.  They still showed pride in the
completion of the project (or so it seemed) despite the brutality and
inhumane treatment of the workers.  I suppose this may be natural as the
memories of the inhumane treatment fade, but it was still rather disturbing.
Again, this may be due to some judicious editing on the part of the
film-makers.

What was also interesting was the contemporary shots of the area.  There
is still some 50-60 miles of the railroad in operation, but the remainder of
the original roadbed has fallen in disrepair.  It apparently became nearly
unusable shortly after its opening due to maintenance problems.  It is
also apparently frequently visited by the ex-POW's.

I would recommend that anyone interested in the Pacific war or the CBI theater
have a look at this excellent production.

Bill
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 08:15:23 CST
From:    jesse carnes <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Is there a 'Montgomery AFB'?

Ron ;

Thanx for your help!!

Apprecieate it!

Jesse

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 08:31:25 CST
From:    jesse carnes <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Is there a 'Montgomery AFB'?

Thanx to Doug and others for their kind help as tomy "Montgomery AFB" query.

Muchly appreciated!!

Jesse
[email-masked]
LSU at B.R., LA
----------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 09:32:48 -0500
From:    Daniel Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: Jets (Was: Re: MOVIE)

I think the first jet-type aircraft to fly was Italian. It contained a
piston engine inside a fuselage that was essentially one huge blowtorch.
The piston engine drove a blower. (I am not an engineer!) It was hugely
inefficient and except for some giddy press releases was never heard from
again.

Frank Whittle of the RAF had conceived of such an engine some years
earlier. His genius was to release that it was inefficient and that a
better system was required. Then "the penny dropped," as he put it, and
the turbine came into his mind. That led in time to the Whittle engine
and the Gloucester jets (and the Bell P-59).

Whittle's patents were published, but evidently the German inventor
(whose name escapes me) knew nothing about them, and devised the Heinkel
engine on the same lines, contemporaneously, and because of government
encouragement faster.

When Messerschmitt got the contract for the Me-262 he did not know which
of several engines would actually power it (in the event, I believe it
was the Junkers Jumo) so he devised the "pod" arrangment whereby twin
engines would be hung below the wings, now standard in jetliners! The
British by contrast designed their engines into the fuselage or wings.

There were jet projects also in Switzerland, possibly France, and
somewhat later in the U.S. None of these got anywhere: it was Whittle's
(and the German's) design that prevailed.

Dan Ford      <e-mail: [email-masked]>
              <postal: 433 Bay Road, Durham NH 03824 USA>
              <voice or fax: +1-603-868-5850>

On Mon, 28 Mar 1994, Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs. wrote:

> Strange you say the germans flew the first jet plane. I recall (dimly) reading
> an article in the National Air/Space Museum about some Frenchman building and
> "flying" (Some controversy here) a jet-ish plane long before then.
>

(Steve, that may have been my article, written on the occasion of the
50th anniversay of the first flight of the P-59!)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 08:38:59 -0600
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Gen:Movies--Stalingrad

Dave Rising says about the movie Stalingrad.

> ........... Just surprised nobody's said anything about it
> on the list. Was it only released in a few cities?

Hi Dave,

It never appeared in San Antonio that I am aware of.  I just saw
Schindler's List Friday and was pretty damn impressed.  Very minor
uniform flaws except for Amon Goeth wearing a rally day badge through
the entire war.....  That struck me as odd.

Subtle details like Schindler's golden Nazi party badge and his "Ost"
licence plates on his car -- well done!  One thing that stuck in my
mind was at the end when he said he could have saved one more Jew if
he had traded his golden party badge because it was gold - only if it
was a jewelers piece cuz the issue ones were not *real* gold.  That
or he was able to sell it to a collector 50 years after the fact. :-)
Only now are they worth the kind of money Schindler spent rescuing
his workers.

Anyway, so far no Stalingrad.  We are standing by though....

cheers, Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 09:37:14 EST
From:    Jorge Merino <[email-masked]>
Subject: Heinkel He-112

Terry Moore wrote:

>     Agreed! The Germans actually flew the first jet aircraft ever
> developed. It flew in 1937 and was the He-112. The Me-262 was
> developed from a glider, but flew early on. It wasn't seriously
> considered as a potential jet fighter until 1942.

If I'm not crazy, the He-112 was a propeller fighter, developed from the
He-100. It was developed to compete with the Bf-109, but obviously, the
Bf-109 won the competition, so, the He-112 was produced in limited quantities
and used by Heinkel to defend its own factory. I understand that by that
time, the He-112 was quite superior than the Bf-109.

I will review my sources to confirm this. I don't remember the first german
jet aircraft, but I think it was a Henschel prototype. I will try to find
some information about it anyway.

Have a nice day,

Jorge

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 09:56:06 EST
From:    Mike Oaks <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: AVAILABILITY OF LETTERS HOME

On Fri, 25 Mar 1994 08:20:35 +0100, John Ausland wrote:

>  Oslo, March 25.  There have been a number of queries, both on and off the
>list, about how to get my book LETTERS HOME, following my posting the FRANCE
>Magazine article about it.  Briefly, it is available in the US through Sidney
>Kramer Books in Washington, DC, toll free number 1 800 423 2665.
>  Anyone outside the US should send an EMAIL message to me.  I am now also
>offering it on disk at half the price of the paper version, or $15.  This
>contains all the text, photos, and maps.  The text can be printed.  I have used
>the program Writer's Dream, which is very easy to use.
>  Regards, John Ausland

John,
   For the "nets" benefit, as well as my own: If we order the disk version
of your book does the Writers Dream program come with it so we can view the
book or do we need some other software product??
                                                Thanks,

  Michael Oaks
  Kennesaw State College
  Kennesaw, Georgia
  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 09:26:00 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MOVIE

Please, let's not get back in the German - Nazi hassle again...

We all know by now what others think...  And what we think...
I don't think much can be added here...

George Bauer
U.S.A.:  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 10:26:27 -0400
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <[email-masked]>
Subject: early jets

Working from memory again, and you know how reliable that can be :-)
I hope I haven't botched it too badly, and I know that Steve,
Emmanuel, or others can amplify and correct as needed.

The German Heinkel He 178 is usually credited with being the first
jet to fly.  It had stubby shoulder-mounted straight wings, and
was barely capable of flight.  If memory serves, its first attempts
at flight were unfruitful, with successful flight possible only after
the wingspan was increased.  This was c.1939, I believe.

The Italian Caproni Campini sort-of jet also flew at about this time.
It had a traditional reciprocating engine to turn the jet's
compressor stage, and had a top speed of only about 200 mph, well
below propellor-driven aircraft of the period.

The British Gloster Whittle Pioneer was a more advanced jet aircraft
than either of these two.  It had tricycle landing gear, and a
straight wing low-mounted on a somewhat rotund fuselage, the diameter
dictated by the centrifugal-flow Whittle engine.  It first flew c.1940.

Heinkel's He 280 twin-engine jet first flew c.1941.  Its wings had
a straight leading edge and a graceful curved trailing edge, very
reminiscent of the Spitfire's wing planform.  It had a twin tail,
tricycle landing gear, and was the first aircraft with an ejection
seat.  It's axial-flow engines were smaller in diameter, allowing
them to be hung underneath the low-mounted wing.  The He 280
eventually lost out to the Me 262, due both to the higher performance
potential of the swept-wing Me 262, and to Willi Messerschmitt's
political influence.

I think the potential impact of the Me 262 has been overemphasized.
The discussions always seem to start with, "If the Luftwaffe had
the Me 262 in combat a year earlier...", and indicate that it was
a strategic mistake to have ignored the aircraft.  The truth is that
the Germans couldn't have had the Me 262 much earlier than they did.
Not the fault of the aircraft, or of the planners, but that the
engines simply were not ready for mass production.  Shortages of
critical alloys forced the designers to develop much less durable
substitutes.  Typical jet engine life was about five hours between
complete overhaul.

Dennis E. Sparks
[email-masked]
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 09:03:07 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Panzerfaust

>
> I have a reproduction Panzerfaust sitting in my living room right now
> (PVC pipe and wood), so I'll try to answer your questions.
>
> The Panzerfaust had several different models.  They were considered a
> one shout weapon, and issued as a round of ammunition.  They were a
> recoilless rocket, so there was no recoil to speak of.  I have read
> accounts of soldiers who received minor powder burns from them.  The
> Panzerschreck had a small shield for the operator, and the crew members
> were issued a face shield.  The Panzerfaust was not afforded such
> equipment.  The operator took his chances when he pulled the trigger.

The difference is that the Panzerschreck was essentially a copy of the 2.36"
Bazooka, with the far more effective R4M aircraft rocket substituted for the
original projectile.  The powerful propellant charge of the R4M made the
shield virtually mandatory.

> As for the sighting system, I believe there was a pop up sight that was
> used to target the weapon.  (I'll have to make sure I am correct on this
> one).  The weapon was not easy to hit something with, but once you did
> if one of the later models, it was devastating.

There was a stripe painted on the ogive of the warhead to use in conjunction
with the sight.

As an aside, my armorer in Korea was a reinactor in North Carolina.  He had
what he thought was a dewatted original Panzerfaust.  One day, he was up in
his room on the second floor of his parents' house aiming it out of his window.
He pressed the trigger and it went off!  Fortunately, the warhead and the main
propellant charge HAD been removed, leaving some sort of initiater/booster.
The warhead landed in the middle of his backyard.  He changed his shorts, then
went outside and retrieved the warhead.... :)

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 29 Mar 1994 00:07:33 +0100
From:    John Ausland <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA: THE FINAL WORD ON D-DAY?

  Oslo, March 28.  While there are many publishers capitalizing on D-Day to
publish books, of those I have seen thus far the one that must come closest to
being the final word is THE D-DAY ENCYCLOPEDIA, edited by David G. Chandler and
James Lawton Collins Jr.
  Only the price tag of $75 enabled me to resist buying it.
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 23:15:38 +0700
From:    "Peter E. Beal" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Kwai, the real story

On Mon, 28 Mar 1994, W. C. (RUSTY) DIVENS wrote:

> The A&E "Time Machine" series had/has a rather interesting presentation
> running that tells the real story of the 'Bridge on the River Kwai" and
> the entire railroad project that was involved.  Pretty nasty stuff, to
> local natives and to P.O.W.'s.
>
> What struck me was the somewhat cavalier attitude shown by the Japanese
> that were interviewed for the production of this show.  I believe one
> was an engineer and one was a guard.  They still showed pride in the
> completion of the project (or so it seemed) despite the brutality and
> inhumane treatment of the workers.  I suppose this may be natural as the
> memories of the inhumane treatment fade, but it was still rather disturbing.
> Again, this may be due to some judicious editing on the part of the
> film-makers.
>
> What was also interesting was the contemporary shots of the area.  There
> is still some 50-60 miles of the railroad in operation, but the remainder of
> the original roadbed has fallen in disrepair.  It apparently became nearly
> unusable shortly after its opening due to maintenance problems.  It is
> also apparently frequently visited by the ex-POW's.
>
> I would recommend that anyone interested in the Pacific war or the CBI theater
> have a look at this excellent production.
>
What one should have a look at is the cemetary in Kanchanaburi, the town
nearest the bridge over the River Kwai.  It is maintained at the expense
of the British government and consists of row upon row of small
headstones with the name, birth date and date of death and arm of
service of the person interred there.  In some cases there is no name. Most
were under 25.

There is talk about reviving the railway and linking the Thai railway
system to the Burmese system.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 11:37:44 -0500
From:    "John E. Kollar" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MOVIE

Well, 1 point was that the Nazis were not even close to the A-bomb,
2:I'll have to look up the weight, but I dont't think an A-bomb could
fit in the V-2, I think an A-bomb was around 10

-20 tons and the
weight was not decreased til the 50s and 60s.
                                        John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 11:04:34 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Jets (Was: Re: MOVIE)

>
> I think the first jet-type aircraft to fly was Italian. It contained a
> piston engine inside a fuselage that was essentially one huge blowtorch.
> The piston engine drove a blower. (I am not an engineer!) It was hugely
> inefficient and except for some giddy press releases was never heard from
> again.

That was the Caproni-Campini.  It was just a ducted fan, rather than a
"blowtorch".  Such arrangements are relatively common in model aircraft,
especially replicas of jet aircraft.  A ducted piston engine is easier,
cheaper, and safer to operate in a model than a real jet, although I've
seen miniature pulsejets for sale.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 08:53:20 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MOVIE

The Italians also flew a jet-fighter in the 1930s. I have never been
able to pin down the dates of the first jet-flights by Italy/Germany.
        Do you know?

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 09:01:02 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MOVIE

Wonderdul post of yours!
Straightforward as one expects from a Kiwi.  :-)
        This recent vintage pussyfooting about "Nazi not German" is sheer
PC. From 1939-1945, western Europe was under German occupation, a singularly
brutal one at that, and the occupiers' ideology at the time was Nazi.
To allude to that, in that time frame, if perfectly accurate and not in the
least derogatory of present-day Germans. However, I predict flames of horror
aimed at your outspokenness....
Regards from Canada.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 18:55:55 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Jets (Was: Re: MOVIE)

On Mon, 28 Mar 1994, Christopher Morton wrote:

> > I think the first jet-type aircraft to fly was Italian. It contained a
> > piston engine inside a fuselage that was essentially one huge blowtorch.
> > The piston engine drove a blower. (I am not an engineer!) It was hugely
> > inefficient and except for some giddy press releases was never heard from
> > again.
>
> That was the Caproni-Campini.  It was just a ducted fan, rather than a
> "blowtorch".  Such arrangements are relatively common in model aircraft,
> especially replicas of jet aircraft.  A ducted piston engine is easier,
> cheaper, and safer to operate in a model than a real jet, although I've
> seen miniature pulsejets for sale.

Probably some confusion. The Stipa-Caproni was a simple duct, with a De
Havilland Gipsy engine in it, drving a two-bladed propeller. It looked
very odd, and flew in 1932. The Caproni-Campini N-1 was, as said, a
'blowtorch' design; it flew in 1940.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 10:55:46 -0600
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Jets

My son (in Juneau, Alaska) is completing his design of a VSTOL
  ducted fan remote-control model aircraft.

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 09:05:50 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Gen:Movies--Stalingrad

Yes, what a first-class movie, SCHINDLER'S LIST.
        Almost unbearably moving, and meticulously accurate.
        As my son remarked, SCHINDLER'S LIST should be required viewing
in universities.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 19:50:16 MET-1
From:    Bognar Attila <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: jets

If I remember well (I have read this in Dan Leighton's book about the
Battle of Britain - the Hungarian title was `Fighters', I don't know
the original) Willi Messerschmidt did build (or at least design) a
jet fighter as early as 1939 or 1940. Fortunately Goering claimed it
a stupid idea and ordered Willi to stop the experiments.
I believe Humanity is much indebted to the "genie" of Hermann...
Correct me, please if my memory or my source cheated me!

All the best,

Attila  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 12:52:32 -0500
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Schindlers List

I know it might be a minor technicality and I don't want to start a flame
war (so you can send your coments to me) but I really hate hearing people
say that Schindlers List should be "required" viewing at any level.  I saw
the movie, I was deeply moved by it but I would never go any farther than
making the movie available for viewing and encouraging it.  I don't think
the movie was set up for any form of formal educational purpose but purley
as "entertainment" (for lack of a better word) and for expressed purpose of
the director telling a story from which hopefully the audiance can come
build some own personal insights.

Onto another subject - I just recently read where the swept wings on the
Me-262 were designed not for aerodynamics and increased speed but to move
the center of gravity back on the aircraft without a major redesign of the
fuselage.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 12:19:51 -0600
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: jets

Obviously, some of the famous Kremlin gremlins were
  advising "Der Dicke" in matters of R & D.  :-)

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 12:58:19 CST
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: NOST: Mitchell spotters out west?

One of the biggest collections of flying B-25 Mitchells in a long, long
time is going to take place in just over two weeks.

On April 15, 16 and 17th, the Doolittle Raiders will be holding their
annual reunion in Fresno, CA.  In respect for these men and to honor the
late General Doolittle, another large formation flight is being set up
to travel around the area on the 16th and 17th.

Currently, it appears this will consist of 8 B-25 Mitchells and about a
dozen P-51 Mustangs.  There will be a few other airplanes in the mix too
(right now I think we might have a C-130 chase plane with our cameramen
on board... :-)

In any case, attached below is the TENTATIVE schedule (assuming no weather
or other problems) for Miss Mitchell.  This will also reflect the plan
followed by a number of other aircraft as well, especially the 16th and
17th.

I'd be interested in knowing if there are any list-lurkers in these areas.
If there are, I'll update our own schedule as we get closer and encourage
you to try and find the airplane.  Our people onboard would really, really,
love to sell you an official Miss Mitchell hat.  :-)

THURSDAY, APRIL 14TH:
        Depart Fleming Field, MN (D97) at dawn.
                (_Possible_ stop in Pueblo, CO for fuel).
                Arrive Colorado Springs, CO approximately 12:00 (Peterson AFB).
        Depart Colorado Springs no later than 14:00.
                (Buzz a few passes and the Hoover Dam with camera ship :-)
                Arrive Chino, CA no later than 19:00.

FRIDAY, APRIL 15TH:
        Depart Chino no later than 15:00.
                Arrive Van Nuys Airport approx. 16:30.

SATURDAY, APRIL 16TH:
        Depart Van Nuys at 14:00.
                Arrive Fresno, CA approx. 15:30.

SUNDAY, APRIL 17TH:
        Depart Fresno at 10:00.
                Arrive Beale AFB at 13:00
        Depart Beale AFB at 15:00.
                Probable return to Fresno for overnight.

MONDAY, APRIL 18TH:
        Depart (Fresno?) at O'DARK:30 for return to South St. Paul, MN.

Since I can't go with on this flight, I'm hoping that a whole bunch of
Colorado and West Coast types will make the effort to spot and visit
Miss Mitchell, buy a hat and tell the crew "Ya know, that Granvin guy
is one hell of a P.R. wizard."

I REALLY need to confuse our crew on this flight.  :-)

Anyone planning to be in the area for this event?  I'm curious.  Email...

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
[email-masked]                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 11:13:27 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Jets (Was: Re: MOVIE)

Your comment on the Whittle jet-plane reminded me...
        It is nigh impossible now to convey the wonder of first sight of
a jet aircraft.
        Around the summer of 1942, I was walking on a beach at Southport,
England, on the Irish Sea coast.  Suddenly, a black twin-engined aircraft
sped past, at near wave-top height -- noiseless except for a slight
whistle. Its rate of speed seemed incredibly fast. It shot away into the
distance, leaving a high-pitched 'whooshing' sound.
        We stood mouths agape, unable to believe our eyes.
        All we could say, was an admiring -- "What the hell was THAT?"
Later on, we learned it was one of the still-experimental Whittle-jet
planes being tested from the secret factory at English Electric, near
Preston, Lancs.
        To this day, I still stare up into the sky when a jet screams
over.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 11:37:31 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Gen:Movies--Stalingrad

There was an excellent book entitled STALINGRAD, by the German writer,
Theodor Plieven. Written as a novel, but tremendously accurate from the
viewpoint of the ordinary German soldier, as Plieven had served there
throughout the battle.
STALINGRAD was written in the 1950s, so is probably long out of print.
If you haven't yet read it, I recommend you keep an eye open for a copy.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 14:52:11 -0500
From:    Walter O'Hara <[email-masked]>
Subject: FILM: Stalingrad

There were many references to this film on the list in the last two days.
Can anyone tell me anything about it?  Was/is it out on video, or is it
too recent?  Is it reasonably accurate from a historical perspective?

What POV did it take?  German? Russian?

Also, does anyone know if ADVANCE AND RETREAT, describing the Italian
experience on the Eastern Front, is available on video?

Thanks,

Walt
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 15:11:07 EST
From:    Aldo <[email-masked]>
Subject: Brahms

Does anyone know if the theme to ~The World at War~ was one of
Brahms' Hungarian Dances?  Just Curious.

Thank You in Advance,

Aldo

Aldo M. Hubert
                                           [email-masked]
University of North Carolina at Greensboro
800 Oakland Ave.
Greensboro NC 27412

Sic Friatur Crustum Dulce

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 12:31:26 +0000
From:    Julian E Gomez <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MOVIE

>Strange you say the germans flew the first jet plane. I recall (dimly) reading
>an article in the National Air/Space Museum about some Frenchman building and
>"flying" (Some controversy here) a jet-ish plane long before then.
>
>Am I alone in my memories, or has anybody else read this story?

The Czechs claim to have flown a jet in 1910. This was at an exhibit at the
1986 World Expo in Vancouver. Very little documentation accompanied the
exhibit.

"I was a precocious child and obviously destined to be a scientist."

        Dr. Julian "a tribble took it" Gomez
        Apple Computer, Inc.  408/862-1289 or 996-1010
        [email-masked]  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 22:25:21 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Jets (Was: Movie)

> Whittle's patents were published, but evidently the German inventor
> (whose name escapes me) knew nothing about them, and devised the Heinkel
> engine on the same lines, contemporaneously, and because of government
> encouragement faster.

Pabst von Ohain ran his first jet engine in 1935. It had been built at
his own expense, with the help of an automotive and railway engineer,
Hahn. Later he joined Heinkel, but the jet engine was purely a private
venture, and had little official support.

I've read that the Heinkel team was aware of the British and Swedish
developments. I'm not suprosed that they were aware of the British work,
but what was the Swedish contribution?

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 15:55:28 -0500
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: NOST: Mitchell spotters out west?

Robert J. Granvin, ([email-masked]) writes:

> One of the biggest collections of flying B-25 Mitchells in a long, long
> time is going to take place in just over two weeks.
>
> On April 15, 16 and 17th, the Doolittle Raiders will be holding their
> annual reunion in Fresno, CA.  In respect for these men and to honor the
> late General Doolittle, another large formation flight is being set up
> to travel around the area on the 16th and 17th.
>
> Currently, it appears this will consist of 8 B-25 Mitchells and about a
> dozen P-51 Mustangs.  There will be a few other airplanes in the mix too
> (right now I think we might have a C-130 chase plane with our cameramen
> on board... :-)

        Are there plans to do any video of the event?  I wouldn't mind
shelling out a few sheckles for a nicely edited, 60 minutes (or longer!)
video of the event.  It would be a shame to not record it and it might
generate some revenue for the CAF.  Just a thought...
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
Hey!  Did you lose my aerial photographs?

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 22:57:44 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: jets

On Mon, 28 Mar 1994, Bognar Attila wrote:

> jet fighter as early as 1939 or 1940. Fortunately Goering claimed it
> a stupid idea and ordered Willi to stop the experiments.
> I believe Humanity is much indebted to the "genie" of Hermann...
> Correct me, please if my memory or my source cheated me!

For some reason, it has always been fashionable to laugh at Hermann
Goering. That is underestimating him, however. Despite all his eccentric
behaviour, Goering was an intelligent and dangerous man, who was one of
the most important builders of the nazi state. Of course some of his
actions were stupid, but they had more to do with his admiration for
Hitler and his struggle for power. [One could argue that to raise to power
in Nazi Germany you had to be either a genius (Speer, Doenitz, Guderian,
Goebbels,...) or a fool (Rosenberg, Hess, Keitel, von Ribbentrop, ...) and
that Goering was both...]

It is true that at some time (don't remember exactly when) it was ordered
to stop all long-term development projects. That was a mistake, but it was
far less obvious so then than it is now. The German belief that the war
would be over soon was not completely unfounded. From the summer of 1940
to the winter of 1941 all seemed quite well for them: The English
beleagered on their island, the US isolationist, and the USSR nearly
defeated.

The scepticism towards jet engines was not limited to Goering; it was
shared by Udet and Milch. It is true that if a concentrated development
effort towards jet engines had been started in 1939, things would have
looked different. That this was not done is not the consequence of some
stupid decision by Hitler, Goering or someone else; instead, it seems
that this was simply the view of the majority.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 23:04:55 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MOVIE

On Mon, 28 Mar 1994, Julian E Gomez wrote:

> >Strange you say the germans flew the first jet plane. I recall (dimly) reading
> >an article in the National Air/Space Museum about some Frenchman building and
> >"flying" (Some controversy here) a jet-ish plane long before then.
>
> The Czechs claim to have flown a jet in 1910. This was at an exhibit at the
> 1986 World Expo in Vancouver. Very little documentation accompanied the
> exhibit.

I think that both memories could refer to the biplane built by Coanda;
instead of a propeller it had a dustbin-like structure fitted to the nose;
it is rumoured to have been some kind of reaction engine. But I know
little of it.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 13:58:15 EST
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: jets

No no no. It was the SWEDES who had the first jet. Only kidding. ;-)

                       *            *             *

An aircraft carrier, the Roosevelt, was launched from NY just prior to
the end of the war. It made it South to Trinidad sometime in the later half
of 1945 since it was too large to pass though Panama and it's mission was
in the Pacific. I think it made it home for Christmas.

My father sailed on it and reports the first carrier landing/take-off of
a jet on a carrier. 'Said it sounded like a vacuum cleaner when it landed,
and took off without great fanfare. But this speck came back from the
horizon and did a "fly-by". He said it was enormously loud, and quite
fast. He was a gunner of a 5-54, as he called them, and he had no idea
how the ship would defend itself if it were attacked with these types of
aircraft.

His name was Frederic Hadley Wild Jr. if anyone might possibly have known
him.

Alan Wild

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Wild, LAN Mgr.  Father of 1.5             Voice:          (401) 792-2611
ACC - Lippitt - URI  American Legion Post 102. FAX:            (401) 792-5479
Kingston, RI  02881                            Bitnet:           AWild@URIACC
                                               Internet: [email-masked]

Murphy's Uncertainty Principle:    You can know something has gone wrong only
                                    when you make an odd number of mistakes.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 13:16:51 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <[email-masked]>
Subject: Aerosphere 1939

I am trying to locate a copy of Aerosphere dated 1939 to either examine
or buy.

Can anybody tell me if this is possible?  Is the book available anywhere?

Thanks.

  =========================================================================
  | DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
  |                                  | Computers in Business & Education. |
  | Recently returned from my second | Education:  Curriculum development.|
  |   extended stay in Prague.       |    International Education, TEFL.  |
  | Working on second book about     | Central Europe:  Post revolution   |
  |   Prague and new Czech Republic. |    economic, social, political     |
  |                                  |    problems and opportunities.     |
  |                                  |  B-25 in WWII.                     |
  | E-Mail:                          | Free lance writing and editing.    |
  |   USA:  [email-masked]    | Stamp collecting.                  |
  =========================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 15:06:44 CST
From:    jesse carnes <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: NOST: Mitchell spotters out west?

Hey ... I'm in for a video of the B-25s if one is to be made.
Thanx, Joe Barone for the idea!!

By the way, does anyone KNOW approximately how many flyable B-17s there are
in the US?
Just curious.

Jesse Carnes
[email-masked]
BR LA
-----------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 22:12:55 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Early Jets

On Mon, 28 Mar 1994, Dennis E. Sparks wrote:

> The German Heinkel He 178 is usually credited with being the first
> jet to fly.  It had stubby shoulder-mounted straight wings, and
> was barely capable of flight.  If memory serves, its first attempts
> at flight were unfruitful, with successful flight possible only after
> the wingspan was increased.  This was c.1939, I believe.

No, no such problems. The He 178 flew on 27 August 1939, three days after
the beginning of taxiing trials. (A hop was made on 24 August). Probably
you were confused by the longer wings that were fitted to the second
He 178, but that was never flown. They had to repair the engine twice in
these three days, however. And the He 178 never reached its predicted
performance. For the first test flights, the retractable undercarriage
was fixed.

The Heinkel HeS 3 jet engine was first test flown under the He 118V2, the
prototype of a dive bomber. (The He 118 had been rejected in favour of the
Ju 87). It seems that later one was flown in a Heinkel He 100 fighter.
Not in a He 112, as Terry wrote; the He 112 was used, however, for rocket
engine trials. BTW, the He 100 (alias He 113) was a later design than the
He 112, and it was this fighter that was used the defend the Heinkel
factory. (To make things even more complicated, the He 112 was built in two
versions that had little in common.)

Messerschmitt had begun studies for a jet-engined fighter in 1938, and
submittted a proposal in June 1939. This triggered the development of the
He 280 twin-jet fighter. The He 280 was the first to fly, and made its
first powered flight on 2 April 1941. It had been flown as a glider
before. The He 280 was never built in series because engine development
was delayed. At a certain time 300 He 280Bs with Jumo 004B engines were
ordered, but they were cancelled because the Jumo engine was not available.

The Me 262 made its first flight on 18 April 1941, powered by a Jumo 210G
piston engine in the nose. Jet engines were added on 25 March 1942, and
the first all-jet Me 262 was the second prototype, flown on 18 July 1942.
By then, the RLM judged that it was premature to start production before
1944. Even then, the engines had a time before overhaul of 10 hours and a
total lifetime of 25 hours; together with a high single-engine safety
speed this made the Me 262 a very dangerous aicraft.

> The Italian Caproni Campini sort-of jet also flew at about this time.

27 August 1940.

> The British Gloster Whittle Pioneer was a more advanced jet aircraft
> than either of these two.  It had tricycle landing gear, and a
> straight wing low-mounted on a somewhat rotund fuselage, the diameter
> dictated by the centrifugal-flow Whittle engine.  It first flew c.1940.

The Gloster E28/39 first flew on 14 May 1941. The Bell P-59A Airacomet
followed on 21 October 1942.

> Heinkel's He 280 twin-engine jet first flew c.1941.  Its wings had
> a straight leading edge and a graceful curved trailing edge, very
> reminiscent of the Spitfire's wing planform.  It had a twin tail,
> tricycle landing gear, and was the first aircraft with an ejection
> seat.

Ejection seats were fitted in the He 219 Uhu and Do 335, but I don't know
wich was the first aircraft to have them.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 15:29:53 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: jets

Hello, Attila!

See below.

> If I remember well (I have read this in Dan Leighton's book
about the
> Battle of Britain - the Hungarian title was `Fighters', I don't know
> the original) Willi Messerschmidt did build (or at least design) a
> jet fighter as early as 1939 or 1940. Fortunately Goering claimed it
> a stupid idea and ordered Willi to stop the experiments.
> I believe Humanity is much indebted to the "genie" of Hermann...
> Correct me, please if my memory or my source cheated me!

    Fritz Wendel was at the controls of the first jet-powered flight
in 1937. It was the German He-117. I will have to check the details
on the alpha-numeric designation, but I think I am correct. The
pilot's name is accurate. I have his autograph.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 15:31:31 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: early jets

Hello, Dennis!

Thanks for jogging my memory. It was the He-178 and was piloted by
Fritz Wendel. That aircraft flew in 1937.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 23:40:27 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Hurricane, Spitfire, P-51, Bf 109

I have coma across an article written by Roland Beamont, who was able to
fly a number of allied and German aicraft in the summer of 1945. These
included the P-51D and Bf 109G; he had previously flown Spitfires and the
Hawker Tempest Mk.V.

He found that the Bf 109G-6 had 'primitive cockpit layout' and 'severely
restricted all-round vision' with 'non existent rearwards vision'. Up to
25000ft, the 109G-6 was 80km/h slower than the Tempest Mk.V; above 30000ft
the gap was closed. The Bf 109G had better climb above 15000ft.  The
ailerons were frozen solid at speeds over 724mk/h (obviously in a dive)
which compared unfavourably with the Tempest, that was still controllable
at 875km/h. The Bf 109G was a good gun platform, but its landing
characteristics were unforgiving. His conclusion was that the Bf 109G-6
'had little to commend it by comparison with its allied contemporaries,
with the exception of its famous fuel injection system'.

Beamont had flown a Allison engined P-51, one of the first to arrive in
the UK, in February 1944. The Allison engine lacked automatic boost
control, and required constant attention; it was also underdeveloped and
'rather too failure-prone for comfort'. Handling was fine, but cockpit
vision was 'appalling', unacceptable for a fighter.  The P-51D had
obviousle excellent combat vision. Handling was excellent, with 'nothing
to criticise', up to the Vne of 780km/h. Conclusion was the the P-51D was
'the most straightforward and viceless fighter of its time', with an
unique combination of range and performance. Beamont added that the later
marks of Spitfire were superior at short range and above 30000ft, and the
Tempest was better below 20000ft.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 15:39:42 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Heinkel He-112

Hello, Jorge!

I didn't make a mistake on the aircraft, only on the alpha-numeric
designation. It was the He-178 and was piloted by Fritz Wendel. I
will have to check the exact date, but the year was 1937. I have an
autogrphed envelope cover with his original autograph on it and the
cover is depicted with a pic of the aircraft taking off.

Sorry about the confusion.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 16:40:05 EST
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor,
         Marist Coll" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re[2]: MOVIE

Col. Doug- Thanks for the enlightening post. It was much appreciated.
- Jonah

>Jonah -
>As I recall the Germans were not all that close to getting the A-bomb.
>Part of the emphasis on the Manhattan project was fear that the Nazis
>would develop an atomic weapon before we did.  It turns out that the
>fears were unfounded as they were much farther behind than the Allies
>thought.
>
>IMHO, I think the Nazi's biggest gaffe WRT technology was not developing
>a jet fighter earlier in the war.  Despite the fact that an ME-262
>prototype was flow in (I think??) 1939, Hitler insisted on making it
>into a bomber, which was a disaster.  It was not produced as a fighter
>until 1944 (at least in any sizable quantities) and by that time
>limitations on fuel reduced its impact enormously.  My two cents. . .
>
>                         Doug Donnell

Jonah Triebwasser
Adjunct Instructor
Marist College
Dyson Building (Adult Education)
Poughkeepsie, New York12601
Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
E-Mail: [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 16:46:42 EST
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor,
         Marist Coll" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re[2]: MOVIE

Terry - Thanks for your $.02 which is worth a great deal more - Jonah

>Hello, Jonah!
>
>I would say that the Germans were 3-5 years behind American efforts
>to develop the A-bomb. Their research efforts were directed at "heavy
>water" experiments which would have given them the bomb in time, but
>this process was longer and the product would have had a lower yield
>than the uranium bombs we developed.
>
>My two cents' worth anyway.
>
>Terry
>
>Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
>P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
>fax 806-371-5370

Jonah Triebwasser
Adjunct Instructor
Marist College
Dyson Building (Adult Education)
Poughkeepsie, New York12601
Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
E-Mail: [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 17:09:26 -0500
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: FILM: Stalingrad

On Mon, 28 Mar 1994, Walter O'Hara wrote:

> There were many references to this film on the list in the last two days.
> Can anyone tell me anything about it?  Was/is it out on video, or is it
> too recent?  Is it reasonably accurate from a historical perspective?
>
> What POV did it take?  German? Russian?

The film is a German film which was released in a subtitled version in
Toronto (I don't know about other cities) in December 1993. It is
produced by the same people as Das Boot (so I read). Having seen it, I
would call it _very_ accurate from a historical prespective, and from a
technical perspective. The POV was German, following basically a single
squad through the battle. It runs about 3 hours, and I would highly
recommend it if you can find anyplace showing/renting it.
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 16:12:58 -0600
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Is there a 'Montgomery AFB'?

> Maxwell AFB in Montgomerey AL. was where the Air War College was 1964-66.
> We were stationed there then. Fun time to be in that locale.  Is the A. W.
> College still there?   Curious.
>
> H. A. Kurt Luginbyhl

Hi Kurt,

It is still there as far as I know.  Most folks here take the course
by correspondence.  TDY funds are not what they used to be. :-(

cheers, Bill Huber / [email-masked]

PS this is a good time to correct my other message stating that the
Air Force history office was at Gunter.  Its actually across the
street from Gunter at Maxwell.  My bad, sorry.

cheers, Bill

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 16:11:00 CDT
From:    Roger Safian <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: FILM: Stalingrad

Greetings,

> Also, does anyone know if ADVANCE AND RETREAT, describing the Italian
> experience on the Eastern Front, is available on video?

I thought this was called "Attack and Retreat", at any rate, I would like
a copy if anyone knows where to purchase one.

What a movie.  I remember seeing it with a friend, 15 or 20 years ago.
Propaganda is putting it mildly!

                                            Roger

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 16:46:50 -0600
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Panzerfaust

> The Panzerfaust had several different models.  They were considered a
> one shout weapon, and issued as a round of ammunition.  They were a
> recoilless rocket, so there was no recoil to speak of.  I have read
> accounts of soldiers who received minor powder burns from them.
>
> As for the sighting system, I believe there was a pop up sight that was
> used to target the weapon.  (I'll have to make sure I am correct on this
> one).  The weapon was not easy to hit something with, but once you did
> if one of the later models, it was devastating.
>
>  Tim A. Scherrer

Tim is right on both counts.  It was a hollow charge weapon designed
to take out tanks and worked well.  It had the instructions on how to
fire it on the weapon itself.  The earlier model called the "Gretchen"
had a smaller head and had an unfortunate tendency to detonate upon
firing.  This made them immensely unpopular with the troops.
The later model was much more reliable and saw wide use.

The movie "Bridge at Remagen" showed Panzerfausts in use early in
the movie.  It was an excellent movie and used several real German
vehicles.

There is an interesting photograph of several Hitler Youth boys in
Berlin with bicycles each one with two panzerfausts secured to them.
They were to use them against the Russian tanks as they entered the
city.  I've seen newsreel footage showing women being shown how to
fire them too.

When the trigger was engaged the propellant fired the head off.  After
it left the tube stabilizer fins popped out and made the warhead fly
straight.  It was similar in concept to the current LAW rocket used by
the US Army in Viet-Nam and still I use today (isn't it?).  Flip up
the sights, fire, pitch it - easy as pie.

Cheers, Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 16:50:08 -0500
From:    Walter O'Hara <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Gen:Movies--Stalingrad

On Mon, 28 Mar 1994, Sidney Allinson wrote:

> There was an excellent book entitled STALINGRAD, by the German writer,
> Theodor Plieven. Written as a novel, but tremendously accurate from the
> viewpoint of the ordinary German soldier, as Plieven had served there
> throughout the battle.
> STALINGRAD was written in the 1950s, so is probably long out of print.
> If you haven't yet read it, I recommend you keep an eye open for a copy.

I believe I have read this one, Sidney.  There was a re-release of
STALINGRAD in trade edition back in the 80s.  I picked up a copy in a used
bookstore a while back, but I've since lost it.  I was hoping that the
recent movie might have been based on that novel.

Apparently, STALINGRAD is the second book in a trilogy by Plieven, the
first title being MOSCOW and the last being BERLIN.  I have my eyes peeled
for the trilogy in the used bookstores in this area....

Walt

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 17:21:00 -0500
From:    DAVID WILMA 415-744-2485 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Schindlers List

          Spielberg wanted to tell a story about the holocaust and he did
          it well.  As far as required viewing, I think that other accounts
          of the Final Solution would be more appropriate.  Schindler's
          List tells how individuals survive against all the horror.  For
          that, the film succeeds and excells.  I think the message of this
          episode in history is how so many normal people could be caught
          up in this process under the guise of warfare or patriotism or
          whatever.  Heros such as Schindler or Raoul Wallenberg need to be
          remembered, but we need to study Aemon Goert and Adolph Eichmann
          so that it doesn't happen again.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 13:13:18 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Jets (Was: Re: MOVIE)

>
> On Mon, 28 Mar 1994, Christopher Morton wrote:
>
> > > I think the first jet-type aircraft to fly was Italian. It contained a
> > > piston engine inside a fuselage that was essentially one huge blowtorch.
> > > The piston engine drove a blower. (I am not an engineer!) It was hugely
> > > inefficient and except for some giddy press releases was never heard from
> > > again.
> >
> > That was the Caproni-Campini.  It was just a ducted fan, rather than a
> > "blowtorch".  Such arrangements are relatively common in model aircraft,
> > especially replicas of jet aircraft.  A ducted piston engine is easier,
> > cheaper, and safer to operate in a model than a real jet, although I've
> > seen miniature pulsejets for sale.
>
> Probably some confusion. The Stipa-Caproni was a simple duct, with a De
> Havilland Gipsy engine in it, drving a two-bladed propeller. It looked
> very odd, and flew in 1932. The Caproni-Campini N-1 was, as said, a
> 'blowtorch' design; it flew in 1940.

I've seen the Caproni-Campini described as a ducted fan.  I can't speak for
the correctness of those sources.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 15:38:32 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Utah Beach

After your recent question here, as to how Utah Beach came to be so
named, I made some enquiries.
I am reliably informed that "Utah" (and "Omaha") were taken at random
from the extensive standby-list of operational code-names compiled and
held ready at Supreme Allied Headquarters. It seems that the British and
Canadian invasion beach names -- Sword, Juno, and Gold -- were similarly
selected at random.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 16:39:48 +0000
From:    John Behrens <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Jets (Was: Re: MOVIE)

On Mon, 28 Mar 1994, Daniel Ford wrote:

> I think the first jet-type aircraft to fly was Italian. It contained a
> piston engine inside a fuselage that was essentially one huge blowtorch.
> The piston engine drove a blower. (I am not an engineer!) It was hugely
> inefficient and except for some giddy press releases was never heard from
> again.
>
> Frank Whittle of the RAF had conceived of such an engine some years
> earlier. His genius was to release that it was inefficient and that a
> better system was required. Then "the penny dropped," as he put it, and
> the turbine came into his mind. That led in time to the Whittle engine
> and the Gloucester jets (and the Bell P-59).
>
> Whittle's patents were published, but evidently the German inventor
> (whose name escapes me) knew nothing about them, and devised the Heinkel
> engine on the same lines, contemporaneously, and because of government
> encouragement faster.
>
> When Messerschmitt got the contract for the Me-262 he did not know which
> of several engines would actually power it (in the event, I believe it
> was the Junkers Jumo) so he devised the "pod" arrangment whereby twin
> engines would be hung below the wings, now standard in jetliners! The
> British by contrast designed their engines into the fuselage or wings.
>
> There were jet projects also in Switzerland, possibly France, and
> somewhat later in the U.S. None of these got anywhere: it was Whittle's
> (and the German's) design that prevailed.
>
> Dan Ford      <e-mail: [email-masked]>
>               <postal: 433 Bay Road, Durham NH 03824 USA>
>               <voice or fax: +1-603-868-5850>
>
> On Mon, 28 Mar 1994, Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs. wrote:
>
> > Strange you say the germans flew the first jet plane. I recall (dimly) reading
> > an article in the National Air/Space Museum about some Frenchman building and
> > "flying" (Some controversy here) a jet-ish plane long before then.
> >
>
> (Steve, that may have been my article, written on the occasion of the
> 50th anniversay of the first flight of the P-59!)
>

There is an article in the October/November 1992 issue of Air and Space
Magazine on Whittle and his engine.  It is an intersting read, but you
have to read the following issue's letters section, which contains a
letter from Whittle himself, to get some of the facts that the article
missed.  As far as the Me 262 is concerned, I believe it was first
designed as a piston engined, prop driven fighter.  I have seen a picture
of it with a prop and engine on the front, and clean wings.  Whether it
wsa flown in that configuration or not I don't know.  That may explain
why the engines were podded instead of designed into the fuselage.  That
way they didn't have to do a major redesign on the fuselage.  Just
speculation.

                                John

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 16:42:00 +0000
From:    John Behrens <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Heinkel He-112

> I will review my sources to confirm this. I don't remember the first german
> jet aircraft, but I think it was a Henschel prototype. I will try to find
> some information about it anyway.

It was the Henkel 178, according to the Air and Space article.

                        John

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 16:47:58 +0000
From:    John Behrens <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Jets (Was: Re: MOVIE)

> Such arrangements are relatively common in model aircraft,
> especially replicas of jet aircraft.  A ducted piston engine is easier,
> cheaper, and safer to operate in a model than a real jet, although I've
> seen miniature pulsejets for sale.

As a quick aside, there are now at least two actual gas turbine engines
on the market.  Each has a single stage compressor and single stage
turbine.  They produce upwards of 10 pounds static thrust and go for
around $3000 each.

                                John

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 19:52:41 -0600
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: NOST: Mitchell spotters out west?

In message World War II Discussion List writes:
> Hey ... I'm in for a video of the B-25s if one is to be made.
> Thanx, Joe Barone for the idea!!

There are a number of B-25 videos out already, but we're in the middle of
professionally producing one about Miss Mitchell which we hope to have
available before Thanksgiving (Christmas rush and all that).

We've also got a camera crew standing by in Colorado to fly chase and a
crew in California to capture film for our project.

The Reunion crew also shot video of last year's flight, so I'm sure they'll
shoot one this time.  I don't know what the availability is (or was) or
whether it was publicly available or not.  I'll definitely know this time
because we'll be there.  :)  I'll alert the net to what is available after
the flight is over.

> By the way, does anyone KNOW approximately how many flyable B-17s there are
> in the US?
> Just curious.

6 or 7 at any particular time.

--
Robert J. Granvin                                             [email-masked]
University of Minnesota, School of Statistics
         "I'm my father?  I'm my mother?  I'm chipped beef on toast?"

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 21:09:18 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: NOST: Mitchell spotters out west?

Second the motion on the B-25 video!!!

George Bauer
U.S.A.:  [email-masked]
Prague:  None currently in use.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 28 Mar 1994 21:51:46 -0500
From:    Stan Koper <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: FILM: Stalingrad

> The film is a German film which was released in a subtitled version in
> Toronto (I don't know about other cities) in December 1993. It is
> produced by the same people as Das Boot (so I read). Having seen it, I
> would call it _very_ accurate from a historical prespective, and from a
> technical perspective. The POV was German, following basically a single
> squad through the battle. It runs about 3 hours, and I would highly
> recommend it if you can find anyplace showing/renting it.
> David Rising
>
A quick check of the New York Times' Sunday Arts & Leisure
section for March 27, 1994, did not show any ads for it.
Nothing has been seen of it here in Boston, to the best of my
knowledge.  Strange.  I wonder if that means it will be out on
videotape soon.

BTW, does anyone know if "The Sorrow and the Pity" is available
on videotape?

Stan Koper
[email-masked]
         "Never Let A Machine Know You're In A Hurry"
      This message brought to you by uqwk 1.7 and Yarn 0.58

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 27 Mar 1994 to 28 Mar 1994
*************************************************