Subject: WWII-L Digest - 25 Mar 1994 to 26 Mar 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 1994 00:00:34 -0500

There are 21 messages totalling 540 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Spitfires in IAF?
  2. Hurricanes, Spitfires, and Reply-to addresses (4)
  3. Gen:Movies--Stalingrad (2)
  4. INFO: New USGPO Catalog (2)
  5. Remove name
  6. <No subject given>
  7. Panzerfaust
  8. Cradle of Aviation Museum
  9. Scott's P-43 (Was: Hurricanes, Spitfires etc) (2)
 10. Blackburn
 11. WEAP: Daimler-powered Spitfire
 12. ADMIN: Intro to WWII-L
 13. Vet (2)
 14. Cradle of Aviation M...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 25 Mar 1994 23:29:50 CST
From:    Steve Alvin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Spitfires in IAF?

At the end of the Second World War, the Czech squadrons in RAF
service flew their Spitfire Mk IX's back home (I've never determined
if this was done with or without the RAF's permission).  The Czech
government deceided that the problems keeping these planes in
operation would be too great, so they were put on the market.

At the same time, the Israeli govt. was desperate for planes and
munitions of all sorts and Czech. became one of their best
suppliers.  Israel bought two shipments of Spitfires, I don't
have the totals in front of me, but I think it was between
25 and 50 aircraft.  The Spits were used to great effect
against Egypt during the 1948 War of Independence.  The Egyptian
air force was also equipped with Spits and also with the
excellent Fiat G.55.

Israeli Spitfire's tangled at least twice with British
Griffon powered Spitfires who were trying to enforce a cease-
fire.  Surprisingly, the British Spits came out on the
lower end of the stick.

Israel accumilated a menageri of aircraft from many sources.
The Czechs sold them some of the first Avia S-199, the Jumo
powered Me-109, they built.  Four P-51's and 2 (?) B-17's
were bought from an American middlemen (one of the oddest
mission of the war was when Egyptian Spitfires intercepted
Israeli B-17's escorted by S-199's).  The strangest
acquisiton was of four Beaufighters.  The British govt.
would not sell arms to Israel, but they would sell 4
Beaufighters to a New Zealand firm who wanted to "use
them in a movie."  The NZ firm immediately sold them to
Israel.

--
Steve Alvin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 26 Mar 1994 08:41:45 -0500
From:    Bob Smart <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hurricanes, Spitfires, and Reply-to addresses

> Is anyone else having the same problem I am, replying to messages posted
> on the List? Before today, there was a "from" address and a "reply to"
> address, with one being the list and the other being the poster. At least
> with the software on my machine, this gave the option of replying on the
> list or off. Now the addresses are the same.

I haven't noticed any difference on my machine but will look closer in a few
minutes.
>
> With respect to Hurricanes winning the Battle of Birtain, I certainly
> think that was true, but not really because it was the better plane,
> merely because it was available in quantity in 1940.

I remember reading somewhere ( Heck of a reference isn't it :-)) that the
Hurricane was preferred for attacking bombers because of the placement of the
guns in the wing. In the Hurricane all 4 .303 Brownings in the wing were
grouped close together. In the Spit they were spread out ( I think one was
inboard then a spce then 2 then a space then 1) The grouping meant that in a
Hurricane you didn't have to be as precise a distance from the target to get a
reasonable amount of lead in the target.

Let me explain - I will assume everyone her knows that wing mounted guns are
set with 'convergence' at a certain distance ( the distance was prescribed in
Regs but many pilots had their own opinion about the 'best distance') If you
are either closer or further away than the set distance the bullet paths will
be spread out instead of in a single spot. Well with the grouped guns of the
Hurricane even if you were not at the proper distance you would have 4 guns
hitting in close proximity ( and another 4 guns in a group a little bit away)
In the Spit each gun had a little bit different convergence angle. This meant
that at any but the proper distance the hits would be spread over a bigger
area.  If the guns had been larger, especially firung explosive rounds (like
20MM) this may have been advantagous. but with the small .303 rounds they
needed high volume of rounds in one place to really be effective.  I can't
remember where I read this and it has been many years but it always made sense
to me so I accepted it.  If anyone has information that would support or refute
the idea I would like to hear about it.

I can also understand that it was better to use Hurricanes against bombers
because the Spit was more maneuverable and stood a better chance against
fighters.

> As late as the summer of 1942, there was a Mohawk (P-36) squadron based
> in India and flying missions into Burma. Canadian, I think. That shows
> the priority the RAF gave to Asia.

It also shows the theory of anything is better than nothing. Didn't Robert
Scott write about borrowing a P-43 in God Is My Copilot? That would have been
late 42 early 43 wouldn't it? Also what kind of missions were the Mohawks
flying? for ground support the Mohawk may have been netter than Hurricanes or
Spits ( radial engine, .50 cal weapons, fair visibility downward because of the
shorter nose?) but I'm sure the big reason was because they were there.

Bob Smart ([email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 26 Mar 1994 08:26:28 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Gen:Movies--Stalingrad

Hello, David!

I wasn't aware that the movie existed. I will be looking for it, and
if it is as good as you say it is, it will be well-received here,
just as Das Boot was.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 26 Mar 1994 09:34:50 -0500
From:    Bob Smart <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INFO: New USGPO Catalog

> WWII-L Listers:
>
> This just came out.  USGPO is offering a free catalog entitled
> "US Govt Books About Military History".

Even better than that one is
Subject Bibliography SB-098

It is the master Subject Bibliography for Military History. Mine is dated June
25,1993 and was the most recent as of a visit to the GPO in February. I will be
going over there again on April 7 (business takes me to that side of town,
a chance to pick up some more Green Books :-)) I will see if it has been
updated ( I doubt it)

Larry you scanned it in once before ( the previous edition) would you want to
do it again? the whole thing is 32 pages including several order forms. I might
be able to scan it in here and run it through an OCR ( we have one I have to
have someone show me how it works)

>
> You can obtain a copy by writing:
>
> Superintendent of Documents
> Military History Catalog
> Room 3095
> Mail Stop:  SM
> Washington, DC  20401

My subject bibliography has a different address ( one in Pittsburg)
But it also has a phone number (202) 783-3238. or Fax at (202) 512-2250
It says those are for orders but I beleive I was told you can request the
Subject bibliographies from the same number.  The GPO has over 200 subject
bibligraphies so you also may want to ask for their master listing so you can
see what other subjects you are interested in :-)

I go to the Laurel Md GPO bookstore since it is right at their main warehouse
It never takes more than 30 minutes or so (and then only if they have to go to
the second warehouse 'across the street') usually it is less than 15 minutes.
The folks in Laurel are always moderately pleasant and a couple are VERY
helpful.  Not like the reputation many government agencies have at all.
My big problem is keeping from spending TOO much ( I want them all, the whole
set of Green Books,and all the other ones too :-))

Bob Smart ([email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 26 Mar 1994 06:55:17 -0800
From:    Robert Wilson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Remove name

[email-masked]

Please take my name off WWII List, thanks.
Regards

Robert Wilson

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 26 Mar 1994 08:55:53 CST
From:    Steve Alvin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hurricanes, Spitfires, and Reply-to addresses

At the start of the BofB, there were 25 Hurrican sqds and 19
Spitfire sqds.  But these numbers were a little mis-leading
because for one reason or another 6 of the Spitfire sqds. were
not really operational yet (for example, the 19th sqdn was
equipped with the modifed Spit IB with the French designed
20mm guns--the guns were a failure).

Spitfires were also sent in great number to the Far East in late
1943, including the 17, 20, 28, 67, 81, 131, 132, 136, 152, 155,
352, 607, & 615 squdrons operating over Burma.  Also, 54, 528,
and 529 squadrons were based in Australia.  Two Australian
squadrons (at least) were re-deployed to Darwin from the Mid-
East in late 1942--they first saw combat on 6 feb 1943.

--
Steve Alvin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 26 Mar 1994 10:12:20 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INFO: New USGPO Catalog

>
>Even better than that one is
>Subject Bibliography SB-098
>
>It is the master Subject Bibliography for Military History. Mine is dated June
>going over there again on April 7 (business takes me to that side of town,
>a chance to pick up some more Green Books :-)) I will see if it has been
>updated ( I doubt it)
>
>Larry you scanned it in once before ( the previous edition) would you want to
>do it again? the whole thing is 32 pages including several order forms. I might
>be able to scan it in here and run it through an OCR ( we have one I have to
>have someone show me how it works)
>
I'll give it a shot. I like to keep these things on byrd to keep people up-to-
date on the material.

Larry J

[email-masked]; Co-Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU (Historical docs)
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 26 Mar 1994 10:54:22 EST
From:    Bill Vasilion <[email-masked]>
Subject: <No subject given>

Subject:Movies
          HI....I did not know they made a stalingrad movie.
           If anyone in the chicago area sees it in video stores let
         me know please.....

             I would like the address where I can send for cataloges
        for World war two documentaries, and movies.

                      thanks bill  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 26 Mar 1994 13:11:17 -0400
From:    John Horner <[email-masked]>
Subject: Panzerfaust

Hi friends!

I have a question that I hope others might know the answer to.  How was the
Panzerfaust aimed and fired?  Specifically, there seems to only be one sight
on it, so how did one line up the shot?  Also, was there a backblast like
a bazooka?

Thanks in advance,

John Horner
HORNERJA@SNYDELVA

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 26 Mar 1994 12:59:18 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <[email-masked]>
Subject: Cradle of Aviation Museum

CAn anybody tell me the address and telephone number of the Cradle of
AViation Museum?

Thanks.

  =========================================================================
  | DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
  |                                  | Computers in Business & Education. |
  | Recently returned from my second | Education:  Curriculum development.|
  |   extended stay in Prague.       |    International Education, TEFL.  |
  | Working on second book about     | Central Europe:  Post revolution   |
  |   Prague and new Czech Republic. |    economic, social, political     |
  |                                  |    problems and opportunities.     |
  |                                  |  B-25 in WWII.                     |
  | E-Mail:                          | Free lance writing and editing.    |
  |   USA:  [email-masked]    | Stamp collecting.                  |
  =========================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 26 Mar 1994 11:26:24 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hurricanes, Spitfires, and Reply-to addresses

The choice of .303 calibre ammunition by the Royal Air Force was a great
error in judgement.
        The American-designed Browning was selected as the best weapon
for arming the new series of RAF fighter, in 1930. Its original form
was .50 cal., of course, but the RAF decided that .303 was sufficient
for use use against current aircraft.  British trials, at the time,
found that there was disappointingly little difference in damage caused
by either calibre. That, plus the fact that the RAF still had huge stocks
of .303 available from the Great War, *and* a strict rule of financial
restraint by the government, put .303 guns into new RAF planes from then on.
        Evolution of metal-skinned aircraft and heavy German armour took
a lot of punch out of RAF armament. Introduction of the first-class
Hispano 20mm cannon later evened the odds for British fighters.  I recall
what a thrill it was to get the new Rose rear turret, which had four
Fifties...
The RAF's problem in this was yet another echo of the huge pressure at
the time for DISarmament.  The same people who made such a noise about
the need for pacifism in 1930, were amoung the loudest in criticising
the Chamberlain government for "weakness" over Czekoslovakia in 1938.
The RAF also suffered from the deleterious "Ten Year Rule" in 1930,
a British government instruction tothe armed forces to place a
moritorium on armaments dvelopment, under the assumption that no major war
was likely within the next 10 years. This moritorium was extended each
year right until the mid-1930s, when Nazi Germany made it clear it had
agressive war in mind.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 26 Mar 1994 17:02:07 -0500
From:    Daniel Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: Scott's P-43 (Was: Hurricanes, Spitfires etc)

On Sat, 26 Mar 1994, Bob Smart wrote:

Sorry, Bob, my machine is linked on 1200 baud and reacting so slowly that
I erased all your message instead of just the top!

Anyhow, you mentioned Col Robert Scott and his P-43:

Scott was an overage fighter pilot who was sent to India to fly C-47s for
the ferry command. He didn't much care for that and had his heart set on
joining Claire Chennault's 23rd Pursuit Group, slated to replace the
Flying Tigers in July 1942.

Meanwhile he intercepted a China-bound P-43 being ferried by the AVG and
a group of Chinese pilots. The P-43s were prone to burst into flames, and
the Chinese pilots were properly afraid of them, with the result that two
of them walked away from their planes at Assam. Scott grabbed these, or
rather his boss Caleb Haynes did, and Scott used one to fly recon
missions and (he claimed) strafing missions into Burma. It is a bit
difficult to know what Scott really did; if you read all of his books,
you realize that he is telling the story a bit differently each time.

But he definitely had the P-43. Then he intercepted a P-40 E model that
Bob Layher was flying to China. He named it Old Exterminator and again
flew missions into Burma that may or may not have involved combat with
the Japanese army air force.

Scott also flew at least one mission with the AVG Flying Tigers, as
wingman to a group of much younger (and of course civilian) pilots,
strafing a town in northern French Indochina (now Vietnam). I think that
was the mission in which Lewis Bishop of the AVG was lost.

Anyhow, Scott won his suit, and Chennault picked him as commander of the
23rd Fighter Group (as it was then called) in July 1942.

Oddly, Scott did not turn up at the AVG's forward combat base for nearly
two weeks. In the meantime, the 23rd FG was commanded by Bob Neale, a
civilian! As Scott told the story, Neale flew up to Chungking in the same
hour that Scott arrived, and they waved at each other from the doors of
their respective C-47s.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 26 Mar 1994 15:24:55 -0800
From:    George Diez <[email-masked]>
Subject: Blackburn

>From [email-masked] Sat Mar 26 15:22:56 1994
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 94 14:13:09 EST
From: sedwards <[email-masked]>
To: Multiple recipients of list <[email-masked]>
Subject: Tom Blackburn, former CO of VF-17, dies

>From a story in the Washington Post:

Tom Blackburn Dies; Commanded WWII Navy Fliers
----------------------------------------------

Tom Blackburn, 81, a retired Navy captain and World War II fighter pilot with
13 confirmed kills in Pacific combat, died of cancer March 21 at his home in
Jacksonville, Fla.

He was awarded a Navy Cross, the Navy's highest award for valor after the Medal
of Honor, for his wartime actions as commander of fighter squadron V-17, which
later became known as the Jolly Rogers. Flying F-4U Corsairs, his pilots
participated in 76 combat days at Guadalcanal, the Solomon Islands and the
Marianas and were credited with downing 155 Japanese aircraft, with a
kill-to-loss ratio of more than 11 to one. He also received the Distinguished
Flying Cross.

Capt. Blackburn was born in Washington. He graduated from Western High School
and the U.S. Naval Academy at Annapolis.

In 1989, he published a book about the squadron, "The Jolly Rogers," which
became and alternate selection of the Military Book Club.

His postwar Navy assignments included tours at the Pentagon and command of the
aircraft carrier Midway in 1958 and 1959. He retired from the Navy in 1962 and
had lived in Jacksonville since then.

----------------------------------------------

  - Steve "Auger" Edwards, FSAF
    313th FS, #6302                                 Forget real --
    GEnie: S.EDWARDS9                                 Get an EPIC!
    CI$: 71610,2736

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 26 Mar 1994 15:01:57 +0000
From:    John Behrens <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Daimler-powered Spitfire

On Fri, 25 Mar 1994, John Behrens wrote:

> On Fri, 25 Mar 1994, Dennis E. Sparks wrote:
>
> > Actually, there was one Spitfire powered by a German engine.
> > A captured Spitfire (I'm not sure if it was a Mk V or IX) was
> > re-engined by the Luftwaffe with a Daimler Benz DB601 or DB605
> > engine to compare its performance against a similarly powered
> > Bf 109.  This was not #K5054, the prototype Spitfire, which as
> > Steve points out, was powered from the start with a Merlin I.
> > If I remember correctly , there is a a photo of the Daimler-powered
> > Spitfire, replete with oversized German markings in the
> > Squadron/Signal "In Action" book on the Spitfire.

Well, I looked and couldn't find a picture of aSpit w/ German markings.
Anyone out there have the answer to the question regarding which was
better, the Bf or the Spit?

                                John

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 26 Mar 1994 15:46:24 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Scott's P-43 (Was: Hurricanes, Spitfires etc)

Scott's book, GOD IS MY CO-PILOT, was quickly made into a war-time
move. In it, Scott was portrayed by the acto, Robert Taylor.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 26 Mar 1994 07:36:58 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Gen:Movies--Stalingrad

> never lacks in it's 3hrs. Just surprised nobody's said anything about it
> on the list. Was it only released in a few cities? Anyway, it's well
> worth the 8 bucks or whatever a movie costs in your neck of the woods
> ($40.00 with girlfriend and confections here--aaak!)

I've never even heard of it.  Of course even "Gettysburg" was hardly released
in the Cleveland, OH area.  It was only in a couple of theaters here.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 26 Mar 1994 15:58:03 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: Intro to WWII-L

Hi, you came to mind, just now.
I have before me a New York Times photograph, published in late 1945.
        It is an aerial view, showing what appears to be several hundred
B-17 aircraft lined up for as the captions says, "earmarked as scrap metal for home industries". I lost count after 300 aircraft. The B-17 boneyard is
described as being at Walnut Ridge, Arkansas.
        An adjoining photo shows a tumbled mass of broken fuselages of
B-29 Super-Fortresses and USN torpedo bombers, described as being, "...on
Guam, US base in the Marianas, now scrap metal awaiting transformation to
peacetime needs..."
Try not to think what the items in the photos would fetch at today's
rate for vintage warbirds.
        'Just thought I'd make your day, Joe.
Regards.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 26 Mar 1994 16:02:14 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hurricanes, Spitfires, and Reply-to addresses

Robert L. Scott's book, GOD IS MY CO-PILOT, was quickly made into a
wartime movie. Scott was portrayed by the actor, Robert Taylor.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 26 Mar 1994 20:45:18 -0500
From:    "J.M.Ruel" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Vet

The 1994 reunion of the Burtonwood Assn. will be in Dayton Oh. on Oct. 12-15.
Trying to reach as many as possible that served at RAF Staa. Burtonwood in
Lancashire England during it's 50 years of service. There will be a plaque
dedication at USAF Air Museum. More info via E-Mail or snail mail to J.M. Ruel
302 E. Peach Orchard ave Dayton Ohio 45419-2644. Thanks

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 26 Mar 1994 19:27:44 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Vet

Ah,yes, RAF Burtonwood.  Just outside Wolverhampton. I visited there a couple
of times, but was not stationed there.  As I recall, USAAF first arrived
there in 1942, and left in 1945.  The American airforce was back, though,
only a couple of years later. Re-activated as an American base in 1948, I
think, though I could be off by a year on that.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 26 Mar 1994 23:16:14 EST
From:    John Sloan <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Cradle of Aviation M...

HI - answer to location of subject
Cradle of Aviation Museum is located near the Nassau Coliseum on the nassau
Community college campus in Garden City New York. it is at exit M4 offthe
Meadowbrook Parkway. address for mail is Museum Lane, Mitchell field, Garden
City New York, 11530. phone is 516 222 1191 - hours arenoon to 5PM Fri
through Sunday.
Let me know if you need more information on this place
John sloan
[email-masked]

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 25 Mar 1994 to 26 Mar 1994
*************************************************