Subject: WWII-L Digest - 9 Mar 1994 to 10 Mar 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 1994 00:00:04 -0500

There are 61 messages totalling 2342 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. HOME FRONT: Japanese American concentration camps
  2. internment camps
  3. Teaching fast and loose with the truth. (2)
  4. Burp guns with bent barrels (3)
  5. Nisei Detention Camps ... and the alternatives (7)
  6. Sound Weapon (2)
  7. HOME: Nisei "shot to death"? Please elaborate, Ken K.
  8. Blitzkrieg (6)
  9. INF: USAAF 7-9 MAR 44
 10. Computer Simulations (2)
 11. Nisei Camps- My 2 cents worth (3)
 12. INF: USAAF 10-13 MAR 44
 13. B-17 computer programme (5)
 14. Polesti raids misinformation
 15. Kublinka Tank Museum
 16. political
 17. ADMIN: Demise of Listowner...
 18. internment camps again (3)
 19. Hitler's Holidays: What Nations?
 20. Hitler's family, Hitler's Money ??? (2)
 21. NOST Extant Rubble
 22. Nisei Concentration Camps (3)
 23. Suspension of mail
 24. Red Ball Express
 25. <No subject given>
 26. B-17 flight simulator
 27. WW-II flight simulators
 28. Detention camps, Concentration camps, or Internment camps?
 29. B-17 computer simulation (is this on-topic?)
 30. propagandexhibit
 31. PC History/Politics:  The Battle of Words (2)
 32. Nisei camps
 33. INF: Strategic Bombing of Germany

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Mar 1994 11:12:36 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HOME FRONT: Japanese American concentration camps

>
> Perhaps one can better understand (and note the word UNDERSTAND which
> is not the same as VALIDATE, EXCUSE, SUPPORT) the camps if one puts
> themselves back into the setting.  History is done a disservice when
> it is not examined in its own time.

Sorry, I can't see ANY rational reason for it, ESPECIALLY in light of the
failure to treat German, Italian, Hungarian, Romanian, and Bulgarian
Americans in a similar fashion.

It was racism pure and simple.  "War Without Mercy" goes into great detail
describing the racial basis for Pacific War on both sides.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Mar 1994 13:52:05 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: internment camps

>
>         Sorry, but I just can't agree with Justin Gustainis that
> US internment camps for citizens of Japanese ancestry were only
> different in degree and not in kind from German concentration camps.
> US intent was not to kill, slaughter or otherwise exterminate its
> own citizens.

Not ALL German concentration camps were intended to exterminate.  That
didn't make them any less concentration camps.  That didn't make Manzanar
any less of a concentration camp.

>         Americans obviously have a deep-seated fear of any kind of
> terrorism happening on its soil.  We are clearly comfortable
> rounding up and herding out any kind of challenge to our domain,
> especially our own citizens if they can be perceived as a threat to
> national security, despite our equally deep-seated drive for freedom
> and equality.  But to say that the internment camps, which were
> clearly wrong but clearly driven by that self-protective American
> paranoia that probably made some Arabs' lives difficult after the
> bombing of the World Trade Center in New York City, were similar to
> extermination-oriented imprisonment centers seems to be missing a
> very real distinction.

But so far we haven't moved all of the Lebanese American or Jordanian American,
or Arab American in general citizens into concentration camps.  It's not like
there aren't people, and people in GOVERNMENT who'd like to, but so far they
haven't.

>         Of course, it raises the question of why German-Americans
> were not likewise rounded up, but I think perceptions of Japanese
> kamikazi-ism, "it's an honor to kill yourself in service of Japan",as with
> middle Eastern truck bombers' willingness to martyr themselves in the
> act of annihilating Americans, drove an especially strong paranoi in
> America.  Boy, we run screaming from the notion of self-annihilation,
> and if you can convince us that a people will kill themselves to kill us,
> we will completely freak out.  Germans weren't perceived as holding those
> beliefs by the general population the way the Japanese were.

WHAT "kamakaziism"?  The Japanese were WINNING when the Japanese Americans were
interned.  Such things weren't necessary and only became an identifiable pattern
when the war turned against Japan.

No, the Japanese Americans were interned because they were an easily
identifiable group, because they were the victims of vicious stereotyping,
and because there was ECONOMIC GAIN to be had in dispossessing them.  Just
as Jewish property in Germany wound up in the hands of non-Jews, Japanese
American property wound up in the hands of non-Japanese.  I suggest that
you watch the Spencer Tracy movie, "Bad Day at Black Rock".  It's fiction
of course, but it accurately portrays the atmosphere extant at the time.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Mar 1994 13:55:27 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Teaching fast and loose with the truth.

>
> Yes, the U.S. used propaganda, as did the Nazis.

And of course there is black and white propaganda.  TRUTHFULLY
broadcasting to the Japanese that they lost the battle for
Guadalcanal is PROPAGANDA.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Mar 1994 13:59:01 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Burp guns with bent barrels

>
> Weren't burp guns with bent barrels issued to tankers, to shoot
>   Chicom infantry off their tanks?

They were designed and tested.  I don't know that they were issued.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Mar 1994 14:17:47 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Nisei Detention Camps ... and the alternatives

> In other words, using an unfair term like "concentration camp"
>   is an injustice itself, which provokes a sense of indifference
>   and contempt from the people whose consciences you are
>   attempting to stir/reach/touch.

"Unfair"?  In what way?  It seems to me that you and others are attempting
to lessen feelings of guilt over the terrible wrong that was done by
substituting euphemisms which dilute the moral nature of the act.

And assume for a moment that it IS "unfair", to SOMEONE.  Is it LESS fair
than to take an entire ethnic group, label them TRAITORS without evidence,
dispossess them, and herd them at gunpoint behind barbed wire...?

> For example, when Whites are accused of "racism" for not knowing
>   the latest PC terminology, their/our reaction can easily
>   become:  "Fine, I'm a racist, so to Hell with you people!"
>
> Is that what you fellows really want?  That is what you are
>   doing, and you are setting yourselves up for the coming firestorm.
>   (Perot was just the comedic intro.)

Sorry, that's not a good or even a relevant analogy.  An ACCURATE anology
would be a comparison between racial discrimination in hiring and LYNCHING.
The fact that your refusal to hire Blacks, or Jews or Japanese doesn't KILL
anyone doesn't make it good, or even harmless.  It's BAD in its own right
and doesn't become good in comparison to hanging someone from a tree.

I'm sorry, I can't criticize the Japanese in soc.culture.japan who try to
dismiss Nanking and the Bataan Death March, while pretending that we didn't
go at least PART way down the same path.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Mar 1994 14:26:19 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Sound Weapon

> Oh lord, it must have been 20 years ago when I saw the book & skimmed through
> it--might possibly have been in the Pentagon library, in fact, as I managed
> to scarf down a lot of generally unavailable info from there when I spent a
> summer working for the AF.  Memory tells me the sound horn somewhat resembled
> a microwave horn, which would give one some directional capability.  If you
> think on the scheme, you can see more and more flaws with it aside from the
> bulkiness & lack of flexibility, which is certainly why the Germans never
> went further than one or two tests on the east front with the device.  The

According to Brian Ford in "German Secret Weapons" (Ballantine) it functioned
not by electronics, but rather by the detonation of a methane and oxgyen and
the focussing of the resultant soundwaves.  It was described as lethal at
50 yards, but certainly nothing on a par with a "deathray" or even the Ark of
the Covenant scene in "Raiders of the Lost Ark". :)

> only other thing I can recall clearly about the book was a discussion of
> & pictures of the Elefant & Maus.  Generally, the book was about "secret"
> or specialized ground weapons.  Umm, memory is stirring.  There was also a
> gun with a bent barrel & periscope to shoot around corners in city fighting.

It was an StG44 with a muzzle attachment.  Such things by their nature wear
quickly and destroy accuracy.  Of course great precision isn't needed to
shoot someone off of the back of an armored vehicle.  The Bundeswehr
neatly sidestepped the issue by mounting MG3s(MG42/56) on the backs of their
Marder APCs in a protected remote mount.  Of course U.S. doctrine is for tanks
and APCs to use mutually supporting rifle caliber machinegun fire against
closely engaged infantry, especially those physically on the vehicles.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Mar 1994 18:09:59 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Nisei Detention Camps ... and the alternatives

> I didn't want to jump into this, but now I have to.
> Were the Nisei hated by the government? the majority of citizens?  I don't
> think so.  Were people wary of them?   Probably.  Consider them threats to
> the state?  Possibly some people.  But the Nisei hated by everyone?

They were widely hated on the West coast.  They were viewed as economic
competitors, in addition to the racial animosity.  This only compounded
things.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Mar 1994 00:09:57 -0500
From:    Stan Koper <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HOME: Nisei "shot to death"? Please elaborate, Ken K.

>      While it is true that German-Americans and Italian-Americans
> weren't tossed into internment camps, Pearl Harbor was a JAPANESE
> attack, and the Rape of Nanking and other Japanese atrocities had
> been known/realized well before the war.
>
Ummm...careful.  I don't know for sure about German-Americans,
but "some" Italian-Americans *were* "tossed into internment
camps".  There's a book out (part of an oral history series)
about it.

>      The anti-Japanese fear/hysteria is entirely understandable.
> It is unfortunate that loyal Americans were victimized in the
> reaction, but now we all know the injustice/tragedy of it and
> maybe can avoid repetitions.

Amen.

Stan Koper
[email-masked]

      This message brought to you by uqwk 1.7 and Yarn 0.57

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 9 Mar 1994 23:40:20 -0500
From:    Stan Koper <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Burp guns with bent barrels

> Weren't burp guns with bent barrels issued to tankers, to shoot
>   Chicom infantry off their tanks?
>
> (There was an article in one of my old war comics.  Of course,
>   Mom threw all of them away, when I was in USAREUR.  They'd be
>   worth $25 apiece, now!)
>
> Lou Coatney

A long time ago I saw a book of infantry weapons, and one
photograph showed a "grease gun" with a barrel attachment that
had a 90 degree angle in it.  As the bullets came out of the
barrel, they hit this bent piece of metal, and essentially
ricocheted to the side.

Stan Koper
[email-masked]

      This message brought to you by uqwk 1.7 and Yarn 0.57

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 01:38:00 CST
From:    Steve Alvin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Teaching fast and loose with the truth.

Gee, Lou, talk about running fast and loose with the truth!
You said:  "Yes, the U. S. bombed civilians, but UNLIKE the
Nazis, usually UNintentionally."

Curtis LeMay ordered the 314th Very Heavy Bomb Wing of the 21st
Bomber Command on February 25, 1945 to make a "maximum effort"
attack on Tokyo.  Each plane was loaded with one 500 lbs GP
bomb and the remaining load consisted of E46 incendiaries.  172
bombers dropped 450 tons of bombs by radar over the city.  Because
they were bombing from high altitude, the reseults were scattered
But, a post mission recon photo showed that were the bombs
were not scattered a square mile of the city was leveled.

The results of this mission convinced LeMay to switch from the
precision high altitude bombing to medium level bombing at
night with E-46 incendiaries, M47 (napalm), M69 (oil) bombs.
On the night of March 9/10, 325 B-29's attacked Tokyo.  Pathfinders
dropped napalm at intervals of 100 feet to mark a flaming
"X" to mark the target.  Within 30 minutes the city was engulfed
in flames.  As Edward Jablonski wrote:  "No city on earth--
not Warsaw, or Rotterdam or London, or Hamburg, or Berlin, not
even Dresden (or to come:  Hiroshima and Nagasaki)--sufferd so
great a disaster, so much agony, so much human despair and loss
of life."  An report from the Japanese Home Affairs Ministry summed
it up:  "People were unable to escape.  They were found later
piled upon the bridges, roads, and in the canals, eighty thousand
dead and twice as many injuried.  We were instructed to report
on actual conditions.  Most of us were unable to do this because
of the horrifying conditions beyond imagination."  Offical
figures list 83,793 dead, 40,918 injuried, 16 square miles of
the city destroyed and a million left homeless.

This mission was follewed by others:  on Nagoya, Osaka, and
Kobe, then Tokyo again.  Then medium sized cities were hit:
Tsu, Aomori, Ichinomiya, Toyama (pop. 127,860, the raid
destroyed over 95 percent of the town.  To its credit, the
21st started to drop warning leaflets, but they seem to have
been mostly ignored.

This statement, by the 5th Air Force, sums up the decision to
strike at the cities:  "There are no civilians in Japan.  We are
making War [capitalized in the original] and making it in the
all-out fashion which saves American lives, shorten the agony
which War is and seeks to bring about an enduring Peace.  WE
intend to seek out and destroy the enemy wherever he or she is,
in the greatest possible numbers, in the shortest possible time."

This is Clauewitz's Total War fulfilled.

I prefer the qoute by William T. Sherman:  "I am sick and
tired of war.  Its glory is all moonshine . . . War is hell."

--
Steve Alvin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 09:54:09 CET
From:    "LTC Donnell, Doug" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Blitzkrieg

A few thoughts that may help out concerning blitzkrieg. . .

Last Spring I had the good fortune to take a trip retracing the route
of the German offensive into France with a group of international officers.
One of the key points that one of the German generals made was that
"blitzkrieg" was not actually a fully developed doctrine at the beginning
of the war.  Commanders were, by and large, given equipment (which at the
beginning of the war was certainly not superior in quality to the Allies),
and objectives and told to attack.  My opinion is that the key to success
was that there was a standing order to ALWAYS be on the move.  This
ran contrary to the French approach of sitting and waiting for orders
from above.  The German commanders were given considerable latitude to
exploit the situation, whereas their opponants fed info up the chain and
waited for orders to come back down.  Thus, "blitzkrieg" as we know it
now more or less evolved on the battlefield rather than in the general
staff.

Another interesting point -- and a real drawback to blitzkrieg warefare
was that it was backed up by a sort of blitzkrieg logistics system.  The
German economy was not fully mobilized for war until 1943.  During the
campaigns of 39/40 it was possible for factories to turn out materiel
at a slow, steady pace to be used up in a quick, high intensity campaign,
then regroup, replenish, and do it all again.  This didn't work when
the Wehrmacht got bogged down in a protracted land war on the eastern
front.  There's a good deal about blitzkrieg economics in "The Ordeal
of Total War" by Gordon Wright.

I would be glad to dig out more info if anyone is interested, but I've
to to scoot off to a meeting.

                      Doug Donnell
                      Ruppertsweiler Germany

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 05:55:19 EST
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Blitzkrieg

>I am writing a 30 page paper for my Nazi/WWII history class
>on the sucesses and failures of the German Blitzkrieg.
>If you did not already guess where this is leading....
>I could use any pieces of information and suggestions
>for good sources.  I already have a few good ones, but I always could
>use more.  Maybe throughout my research, if anyone is
>interested, I could post some facts.  Thanks.
>[email-masked]
>
>ERIC RODE
>SAINT LAWRENCE UNIV.
>

Eric,

Let us know what sources you have found, and maybe we can direct you to
a few others.

Off the top of my head, I would recommend:

Lost Victories by Field Marshal von Manstein
Panzer Battles by von Mellenthin
Panzer Leader by Guderian
The Blitzkrieg Story by Charles Messenger
On Infantry by John English (Chapters on WWII German Infantry)
The History of the German General Staff by Wlater Goerlitz

Barry

Barrett F. Lowe               RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, West Point  (e-mail:  [email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 05:17:03 -0600
From:    Lakeville Senior High <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Blitzkrieg

> >I am writing a 30 page paper for my Nazi/WWII history class
> >on the sucesses and failures of the German Blitzkrieg.
> >If you did not already guess where this is leading....
> >I could use any pieces of information and suggestions
> >for good sources.  I already have a few good ones, but I always could
> >use more.  Maybe throughout my research, if anyone is
> >interested, I could post some facts.  Thanks.
> >[email-masked]
> >
> >ERIC RODE
> >SAINT LAWRENCE UNIV.
> >
>

I just finished reading The German Army by Matthew Cooper.  His standpoint
is that "blitzkrieg" tactics were *not* followed by most of the german
army -- even Rommel after he takes over the defense of West -- but instead
a number of tanks commanders made such tremendous gains in 1939 to 1941
that their exceptional methods became known at the rule.  Cooper goes so
far as to research the history and orgin of the word "blitzkrieg" to
further his claim.  Finally, he documents the *lack* of motorized
transport that plauges the army from to 1939-45; great statistics and the
number of horses used in Russia and how the army at one point lacked not
horses, but gear needed to hitch them to pull equipment.

Cooper holds that blitzkrieg tactics are necessary for modern warfare and
claims that the failure of OKW to grasp the imortance of mobility lead
to the loss of much manpower and ground.

 Andy Charrier Lakeville High School

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 12:36:56 GMT
From:    Dmitri Brasoun <[email-masked]>
Subject: Blitzkrieg

Among russian sources (about eastern Blietzkrieg) the best are:

Marshal Zhukov "Memory and thinking"
        I don't know - is there translation this book in English?
        But anyway it's very important thing for the understanding
        of actions of Russian Army Top.
        It's interesting that two years ago the new edition was
        pablished, in which namaly pages concerning first months of
        war were completed (ealer it was cuted by ideolodical reason).
Volkogonov (former adviser of Yeltsin)"Triumth and Tragedy (biography
        of Stalin)"
        In this book the author used a lot of facts from secret ealer
        sources (KGB archive, SA archive and so on). It is published
        two years ago too. It is considered that it's fullest Stalin
        biography. The part concerning of the war onset does strong
        impression.
Of course, there are other books.
                                        Dmitry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 07:22:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USAAF 7-9 MAR 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
7 - 10 MARCH 1944

FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-24, Douglas Dauntless
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  P-61, Northrop Black Widow

TUESDAY, 7 MARCH 1944

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): In the Aleutian Islands, B-24s and B-25s fly
a negative search mission for an enemy submarine.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 20+ P-51s and A-36s on armed
reconnaissance hit targets of opportunity from Walawbum to Shaduzup; 2 B-25s
hit troop concentrations NW of Shaduzup and another attacks road bridge and
barges near Shwebo and along the Irrawaddy River; offensive reconnaissance
over several airfields in Burma results in no major action.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): HQ 466th Bombardment Group (Heavy)
arrives at Attlebridge, England from the US.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, 112 B-26s and 18 A-20s
attack V-weapon sites on the Channel coast, military installations near
Criel-sur-Mer and Greny, and targets of opportunity in the area; bad weather
causes the recall of 150+ B-26s before they attack targets.
  Units arriving in England from the US: HQ 371st Fighter Group and 404th,
405th and 406th Fighter Squadrons at Bisterne with P-47s (first mission is 12
Apr); HQ 405th Fighter-Bomber Group and 509th Fighter-Bomber Squadron at
Christchurch with P-47s (first mission is 11 Apr); HQ 409th Bombardment Group
(Light) and 640th, 641st, 642d and 643d Bombardment Squadrons (Light) at
Little Walden with A-20s (first mission is 13 Apr); 422d Night Fighter
Squadron, Ninth Air Force, at Charmy Down with P-61s (first mission is 3 Jul).
  34th Troop Carrier Squadron, 315th Troop Carrier Group, ceases operating
from Blida, Algeria with C-47s and returns to base at Spanhoe, England.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Around 300 B-17s and B-24s hit
targets in France and Italy; the B-17s bomb the Toulon, France submarine
base; in Italy, B-24s hit marshalling yards at Poggibonsi, Pontassieve and
Prato and air depots at Orvieto, Rome and Viterbo. P-47s and P-38s fly about
150 sorties in support of the bombers.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s bomb the Rome/
Ostiense marshalling yard while other B-25s hit the Littoria marshalling yard;
A-20s strike the Zagarolo railroad station; P-40s attack enemy positions in
the Anzio beachhead area with good results, while A-36s hit communication at
Montebello, railroad station near Civitavecchia, gun emplacements near
Littoria Airfield, and a train at Monterotondo; P-40s over the Anzio beachhead
encounter no air opposition.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-24s from Abemama Island hit
Kusaie Island and Jaluit Atoll. P-40s bomb and strafe the airfield at Mille
Atoll. B-25s pound runways, AA positions, storage areas, and barracks on
Taroa Island, Maloelap Atoll.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 24
B-25s, with US Navy (USN) fighter support, hit Tobera Airfield; 19 P-40s bomb
and strafe Rabaul. 24 B-24s and 14 P-38s hit Panapai Airfield, New Ireland
Island. Fighter aircraft pound tactical targets on Bougainville Island
including Koromira Mission, a supply area on the Jaba River, and bivouac S of
the Maririei River near Menoavi.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): B-24s and B-25s continue to
hit targets on Los Negros Island and other of the Admiralty Islands and bomb
Boram Airfield, New Guinea. P-38s and Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF)
aircraft attack targets in the Talasea area of New Britain Island.
  823d Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 38th Bombardment Group (Medium), moves
from Port Moresby to Nadzab, New Guinea with B-25s.

WEDNESDAY, 8 MARCH 1944

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): In the Aleutian Islands, bombers fly negative
search and patrol missions for an enemy submarine; B-24s fly cover for a
convoy en route from Adak to Shemya Islands.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 28 P-51s hit the airfields at
Anisakan, Shwebo, and Onbauk, destroying 30+ Japanese aircraft; later 5 B-25s
and 2 P-51s hit Shwebo, scoring hits along the runway and in the dispersal
area and leaving several Japanese aircraft aflame; 3 B-25s hit 2 bridges at
Lalawng Ga and Warazup, knocking out the latter; and 16 A-36s and P-51s hit
targets of opportunity from Chanmoi to Shaduzup.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 26th Fighter Squadron, 51st Fighter Group,
based at Kunming, China with P-51s sends a detachment to operate from
Nanning.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 252: The primary target
is the ball bearing plant at Erkner, a suburb of Berlin; enemy opposition
is fierce and 37 bombers and 16 fighters are lost; 320 of 414 B-17s and 150
of 209 B-24s dispatched hit the primary; 36 B-17s hit Wildau and targets of
opportunity; 33 B-24s hit Berlin and targets of opportunity; the bombers
claim 63-17-19 Luftwaffe aircraft; 28 B-17s and 9 B-24s are lost, 1 B-17 and
2 B-24s are damaged beyond repair; casualties are 4 KIA, 14 WIA and 364 MIA.
Escort is provided by 104 P-38s, 613 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s and 174
Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-51s; claims/losses are:
  1. P-38s claim 9-2-5 Luftwaffe aircraft; 3 P-38s are lost, 1 is damaged
beyond repair and 2 damaged; casualties are 1 KIA and 4 MIA.
  2. P-47s claim 49-6-18 Luftwaffe aircraft; 10 P-47s are lost, 13 damaged
beyond repair and 4 damaged; casualties are 2 KIA, 2 WIA and 10 MIA.
  3. P-51s claim 29-4-9 Luftwaffe aircraft; 5 P-51s are lost, 2 damaged
beyond repair and 1 damaged; casualties are 4 MIA.
  An additional 8-4-7 Luftwaffe aircraft are claimed on the ground.
  786th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 466th Bombardment Group (Heavy),
arrives at Attlebridge, England from the US with B-24s; first mission is 22
Mar.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In the Netherlands, 225+ B-26s
attack Volkel Airfield once and Soesterberg Airfield twice in morning and
afternoon missions.
  Units arriving in England from the US: HQ 303d Fighter Wing at Ashford;
95th, 97th and 98th Troop Carrier Squadrons, 440th Troop Carrier Group, at
Bottesford with C-47s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Moves in Italy: HQ 306th
Bombardment Wing (Heavy) from Lucera to Torremaggiore; 724th, 725th, 726th
and 727th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), 451st Bombardment Group (Heavy),
from Gioia del Colle to San Pancrazio with B-24s.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s strike at the Orte
marshalling yard and Orte-Fabrica di Roma railroad; B-26s hit the Rome/
Tiburtina marshalling yard and dock area at Porto Santo Stefano; P-40 fighter-
bombers hit gun positions and a road junction near Rome while A-36s attack a
road junction near Montalto di Castro, also hitting a bridge and a train, and
guns and a castle SW of Celano; P-47s hit gun emplacements; P-40s strafe
vehicles near Rome/Via Appia.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-24s, striking from Makin
Island, bomb Ponape and Kusaie Islands. A-24s and P-40s, also from Makin
Island, bomb and strafe runways and AA positions at Mille Atoll. Tarawa
Atoll-based B-25s pound Wotje Atoll.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 23
B-24s and 23 B-25s pound Rabaul, blasting Chinatown and the wharf area; 46
P-40s and P-39s pound the dock area E of Rabaul; 9 P-38s, turning back from
Rabaul bomb Buka Airfield on Buka Island.
  In the Solomon Islands, 390th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 42d
Bombardment Group (Medium), based in the Russell Islands with B-25s begins
operating from Stirling Island

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): B-25s carry out a number of
low-level strikes as Allied ground forces capture Lombrun Plantation on Los
Negros Island, virtually completing the capture of the island. In New
Guinea, 70+ B-24s, B-25s, and A-20s bomb Nubia and Awar airstrips; the
bombers and escorting fighters claim 17 aircraft shot down in the Wewak area.
Fighters continue to strafe coastal targets in NE New Guinea and on New
Britain Island.
  822d Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 38th Bombardment Group (Medium),
moves from Port Moresby to Nadzab, New Guinea with B-25s.

THURSDAY, 9 MARCH 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 6 B-24s bomb Tavoy Airfield and
office area while 8 others hit the town of Mogaung; the town area, supply
dumps and road bridge at Kamaing are pounded by 10 B-24s, 16 P-51s, and 10
P-40s; the bridge is knocked out; 10 B-25s score numerous hits on airstrips
at Indaw and Katha; and P-51s, P-40s, and A-36s hit storage at Pyindaw, and
support ground forces at Walawbum and Shaduzup.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 18 Chinese-American Composite Wing (CACW)
B-25s and 24 Chinese P-40s pound a foundry and floating docks at Shihhweiyao,
China. In French Indochina, 40+ P-40s carry out several sea sweeps off the
coast and fly armed reconnaissance over the NE; the fighters damage vessels
off Campha Port, strafe the airfield at Mon Cay, bomb the airfield at Weichow
Island (causing heavy damage), hit barracks at Luc Nam, damage vessels at
Hongay and bomb military installations at Cao Bang.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 253: 8 bombers and 1
fighter are lost on missions to Germany; the bombers claim 1-0-0 Luftwaffe
aircraft; 221 bombers are damaged; details are:
  1. 339 of 361 B-17s dispatched hit Berlin; 6 B-17s are lost and 1 is
damaged beyond repair; casualties are 10 KIA, 6 WIA and 43 MIA.
  2. 150 of 165 B-24s hit secondary targets at Hannover, Brunswick and
Nienburg; 2 B-24s are lost and 1 damaged beyond repair; casualties are 12
WIA and 20 MIA.
  Escort is provided by 83 P-38s, 572 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s and
153 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-51s; no claims are made; 1 P-38 is lost, 2
P-38s and 1 P-51 are damaged beyond repair; casualties are 1 KIA, 1 WIA and
1 MIA.
  784th, 785th and 787th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), 466th Bombardment
Group (Heavy), arrive at Attlebridge, England from the US with B-24s; first
mission is 22 Mar.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): HQ 463d Bombardment Group
(Heavy) arrives at Celone Airfield, Italy from the US.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s strike the dock
area of Porto Stefano, some bombs falling in the Port'oErcole area; B-25s
bomb a bridge at Montalto di Castro; A-20s hit a tank repair depot N of
Tivoli; P-40s blast gun positions W of Campoleone, W of Pratica di Mare, and
S of Ciampino; A-36s bomb Capranica railroad station and targets nearby;
and fighters fly uneventful patrols over Anzio.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-25s based on Abemama Island
attack Taroa Island, Maloelap Atoll. B-24s from Tarawa Atoll hit Ponape and
Kusaie Islands.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 24
B-25s bomb the dock area along the N shore of Simpson Harbor at Rabaul; 19
B-24s follow with a strike on Rabaul town and wharf area and also hit
airfields in the vicinity; and 40+ P-39s and P-40s hit the dock area E of
Simpson Harbor. At Empress Augusta Bay, Bougainville Island, 2 squadrons of
B-25s hit Japanese installations on the nearby hills.
  Detachment of 17th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, 4th Photographic
Group (Reconnaissance), begins operating from Munda, New Georgia Island
with F-5s; the squadron is based on Guadalcanal Island, Solomon Islands.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): B-25s pound Lorengau and
other targets on Manus Island. Numerous other Fifth Air Force aircraft carry
out armed reconnaissance over wide reaches of the SWPA, attacking a variety
of targets.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 08:01:31 EDT
From:    Bob Rooks x7257 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Computer Simulations

Years ago (20+) loved to play the Avalon Hill wargames(board
series). Was thinking of trying a computer wargame simulator, but
there are several commercial offerings. Can anyone suggest some
good choices before I fork out $50 plus on a dud? Of course
interested in WWII era but would not rule out Civil War period or a
fictional conflict scenario. Realize this is not a gaming forum, but
remember some of the old games really brought to life the strategy
and tactics involved in many conflicts so hope this post is not to far
off the mark!
Bob Rooks
Brookhaven National Laboratory
Upton, New York
[email-masked]
Phone 516-282-7257, FAX 516-282-5822

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 04:16:22 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Nisei Camps- My 2 cents worth

>
>      I am relatively new to this list. I am enjoying the discussion
>      regarding the Nisei camps due to the fact that many valid points are
>      being introduced as are some very interesting opinions.
>      One thing which is bothering me is that I am forming the opinion that
>      everyone who has entered this discussion is doing so with the belief
>      that the Unites States CITIZENS approved of the internment of the
>      Japanese-Americans into these camps. It was the GOVERNMENT which
>      performed this act and, for some part, without the support of the
>      citizens.

It was also done contrary to the opinion of J. Edgar Hoover, hardly a bleeding
heart liberal.  If he could find no justification for it at the time, one
wonders how anyone did.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 07:19:52 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Blitzkrieg

Hello, again, Erik!

Here are some more books for your consideration dealing with the
Blitzkrieg:

                  Paperbacks

 Hitler Directs His War by Felix Gilbert
 Battles Lost and Won by Hanson W. Baldwin
 Barbarossa by Alan Clarke

                  Hardbacks

  The German Army by Matthew Cooper
  The History of the German General Staff by Walter Goerlitz
  Hitler and His Generals by Harold C. Deutsch
  Die Deutsche Panzerwaffe by General Walther K. Nehring (German)
  A Genius for War by Col. T. N.Dupuy, USA, Ret.
  The Road to Stalingrad by John Ericson
  Hitler's Generals by Correlli Barnett
  The Blitzkrieg Era and the German General Staff 1865-1941 by Larry
H. Addington
  Codeword Barbarossa by Barton Whaley
  German Strategy Against Russia 1939-1941 by Barry A. Leach
  Lost Victories by Erich von Manstein
  Hitler's Strategy 1940-1941 by Martin van Creveld

  Hope this helps.

  Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 08:20:27 EST
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Computer Simulations

>Years ago (20+) loved to play the Avalon Hill wargames(board
>series). Was thinking of trying a computer wargame simulator, but
>there are several commercial offerings. Can anyone suggest some
>good choices before I fork out $50 plus on a dud? Of course
>interested in WWII era but would not rule out Civil War period or a
>fictional conflict scenario. Realize this is not a gaming forum, but
>remember some of the old games really brought to life the strategy
>and tactics involved in many conflicts so hope this post is not to far
>off the mark!
>Bob Rooks
>Brookhaven National Laboratory
>Upton, New York
>[email-masked]
>Phone 516-282-7257, FAX 516-282-5822
>

Bob,

Two that I would recommend are by SSI (Strategic Simulations Inc.)

1)  Western Front:  The liberation of Europe 1944-45

This is a division/corps level game that includes both the Italian and French
theaters.  Germans and Allies can select production, change commanders, etc.

I really like it.

2)  Second Front:  The war in Russia 1941-45  and it's newer version
called Russian Front.

This is a corps (german) and army (russian) level game.  Same production and
commanders as above.

Bear

Barrett F. Lowe               RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, West Point  (e-mail:  [email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 08:28:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USAAF 10-13 MAR 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
10-13 MARCH 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-24, Douglas Dauntless
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

FRIDAY, 10 MARCH 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 23 B-24s pound the town areas of
Mogaung and Kamaing during the afternoon, following an earlier B-25 raid on
Kamaing; 40+ P-40s, P-51s, and P-38s hit gun positions S of Walawbum, troops
and storage areas W of Mogaung at Pahok, trains near Myitnge and Anisakan,
the airfield at Anisakan, and the town area of Laban.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 6 B-24s bomb Kowloon Docks; B-25s
from Suichwan sink a motor launch and damage 2 cargo vessels and a barge in
the Anking area; escorting P-38s shoot down several interceptors; P-40s and
P-51s on armed reconnaissance bomb or strafe barracks and shipping at
Foochow, airfield and barracks at Nanchang, factory, barracks, and bridge
near Sienning, and in French Indochina, freighters at Hongay and Campha Port,
barracks at Ha Coi, and the area E of Lang Son.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 254: 5 of 5 B-17s drop
250 bundles of leaflets on Brussels, Antwerp, Ghent and Monceau-sur-Sambre,
Belgium at 2127-2137 hours without loss.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Units arriving in England from the
US: 96th Troop Carrier Squadron, 440th Troop Carrier Group, at Bottesford
with C-47s; 585th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 394th Bombardment Group
(Medium), at Boreham with B-26s (first mission is 23 Mar).

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-26s bomb the Rome/
Tiburtina marshalling yard and unsuccessfully attack the Orvieto railroad
bridge, while B-25s hit the Littoria marshalling yard; P-40s and A-36s strike
at enemy positions on the coast at San Felice Circeo, gun positions E of
Littoria, guns and tanks at Cisterna di Roma, railroad at Montalto di Castro,
train at Monte Libretti station and railway buildings at Zagarolo; and
fighters patrol the Anzio area without incident.
  Flight of the 5th Combat Mapping Squadron, 3d Photographic Group
(Reconnaissance), begins operating from San Severo, Italy with F-5s; the
squadron is based at Pomigliano, Italy.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): A-24s and P-40s from Makin
Island and B-25s from Tarawa Atoll attack airfields, AA positions and radio
installations at Mille and Wotje Atolls. B-25s, operating out of Engebi
Island in Eniwetok Atoll, Marshall Islands (secured by invading forces on 22
Feb) for the first time, bomb Kusaie Island.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island,
P-40s and P-39s attack the Wunapope supply area; 19 B-24s pound the Rabaul
area, starting several large fires. On Bougainville Island, 40 B-25s hit
Japanese positions in the hills near Empress Augusta Bay; P-39s attack
targets at Kepiai Plantation.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): 11 B-25s bomb Lorengau and
several targets of opportunity on Manus Island. B-24s and P-39s, operating
singly or in pairs, attack numerous scattered targets of opportunity
throughout the SWPA during armed reconnaissance flights.

SATURDAY, 11 MARCH 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 70+ fighter-bombers (P-40s, P-51s
and A-36s) and 2 B-25s hit fuel and ammunition dumps, gun positions, roads
and general targets of opportunity in or near Saungka, Pandaw, Walawbum,
Labang Gahtawng, Shaduzup and Mogaung.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In French Indochina, 10 P-40s damage 3 barges
at Campha Port, hit buildings on Weichow Island, China and attack the town
area at Ha Coi.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 255: France and Germany
are hit in two raids; 1 B-17 and 4 fighters are lost; both forces use
blind-bombing techniques due to thick overcast:
  1. 120 of 124 B-17s dispatched hit the marshalling yard at Munster; 1 B-17
drops on Bentheim as a target of opportunity and 3 drop on Burgsteinfurt
accidentally; 1 B-17 is lost and 24 damaged; casualties are 10 MIA. Escort
is provided by 90 P-47s and 50 P-51s; 2 P-51s are lost and 2 P-47s are
damaged; casualties are 2 MIA.
  2. 34 of 51 B-24s hit V-weapon sites at Wizernes, France; 1 B-24 is
damaged. Escort is provided by 40 P-38s and 213 P-47s; 2 P-47s are lost, 1
damaged beyond repair and 2 damaged; casualties are 1 WIA and 2 MIA.
  HQ 467th Bombardment Group (Heavy) and 789th, 790th and 791st Bombardment
Squadrons (Heavy) arrive at Rackheath, England from the US with B-24s; first
mission is 10 Apr.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 61 B-26s bomb V-weapon sites in N
France; 53 abort because of weather and navigational difficulties.
  Arrivals in England from the US: HQ 53d Troop Carrier Wing at Greenham
Common; HQ 394th Bombardment Group (Medium) and 584th, 586th and 587th
Bombardment Squadrons (Medium) with B-26s at Boreham (first mission is 23
Mar); HQ 440th Troop Carrier Group at Bottesford.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): About 100 B-24s, escorted by
30+ P-38s, bomb the harbor at Toulon, France. In Italy, 100+ B-17s, escorted
by 50+ P-47s, hit the marshalling yard at Padua; other B-24s bomb the
marshalling yards at Pontassieve and Prato and hit the airfield at Iesi.
The bombers and fighters claim destruction of 30+ enemy aircraft in the air.
  772d Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 463d Bombardment Group (Heavy), arrives
at Celone Airfield, Italy with B-17s; first mission is 16 Mar.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium bombers strike at
Florence, Orvieto and Fabriano marshalling yards with good results; P-40,
A-36, and P-47 fighter-bombers attack a supply depot, railroad station, and
factory in areas NE of Monterotondo, and numerous other targets, including
gun positions in the battle areas, railroad facilities, and 2 supply trains.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-24s, operating out of
Kwajalein Atoll, for first time, carry out the Seventh's first raid from the
Marshall Islands against Wake Island. P-40s and B-25s, operating from bases
in the Gilbert Islands, pound Mille and Maloelap Atolls.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 40+
B-24s and B-25s, supported by 20+ P-38s, pound Rabaul town area; and 20 P-40s
bomb Wunapope. On Bougainville Island, 43 P-40s bomb the Mosigetta area while
4 B-24s pound Monoitu Mission.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): 12 B-25s pound Lorengau,
Manus Island while 7 B-24s bomb enemy positions to the W of the town, as
the preliminaries for invasion of Manus increase. In New Guinea, 80+ B-24s,
B-25s, and A-20s hit Boram Airfield while 40+ A-20s and P-39s attack targets
in the Madang area; P-47s strafe the Hansa Bay area; other aircraft carry out
armed reconnaissance and sweeps over wide reaches of NE New Guinea and the
New Britain coastal areas.
  64th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 43d Bombardment Group (Heavy), moves
from Dobodura to Nadzab, New Guinea with B-24s.

SUNDAY, 12 MARCH 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 50+ P-40s, A-36s, and P-51s,
along with a single B-25, pound troops and supply areas at Shedwiyang and
near Kamaing, bomb the town of Shaduzup, and hit storage areas near Manywet
and Malakawng.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 256: 46 of 52 B-24s
dispatched hit a V-weapon site at St Pol/Siracourt, France and 6 hit targets
of opportunity, all using blind-bombing techniques; 1 B-24 is lost and 26
damaged; casualties are 1 WIA.
  788th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 467th Bombardment Group (Heavy),
arrives at Rackheath, England from the US with B-24s; first mission is 10
Apr.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): HQ 474th Fighter Group and 428th,
429th and 430th Fighter Squadrons arrive at Moreton, England from the US with
P-38s; first mission is 25 Apr.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): 345th Fighter Squadron, 350th
Fighter Group, ceases operating form Corsica with P-39s and returns to base
on Sardinia.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-24s from Tarawa Atoll bomb
Mille, Wotje and Maloelap Atolls and Nauru Island, Gilbert Islands. B-25s hit
Jaluit Atoll.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 22
B-25s, with US Navy (USN) fighter cover, pound the Rabaul area, concentrating
on the N rim of Simpson Harbor; 18 B-24s, with USN fighter cover, follow with
a strike against Rabaul customs wharf area; the B-24 strike is followed by an
attack on the town area of Rabaul by 64 P-40s, P-38s, and P-39s.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): 12 B-25s hit enemy positions
and communication at Lorengau, Manus Island as landings on small offshore
islands continue with a beachhead being established on Hauwei Island. 40+
B-24s B-25s, and A-20s hit the Wewak, New Guinea area.
  403d Bombardment Squadron, 43d Bombardment Group, moves from Dobodura to
Nadzab, New Guinea with B-24s.

MONDAY, 13 MARCH 1944

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CARIBBEAN (Sixth Air Force): 32d Fighter Squadron, XXVI Fighter Command,
moves from Hato Field, Curacao to France Field, Canal Zone with P-39s.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 140+ P-40s, A-36s, and P-51s along
with 2 B-25s pound numerous targets of opportunity in the Shaduzup area,
knock out a span of a bridge in Shaduzup, hit the town of Loilaw, pound
supply and ammunition dumps near Warazup and Seton, and bomb a building area
N of Namti.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 8 B-24s and 4 P-40s attack the
airfield and seaplane anchorage at Kiungshan on Hainan Island; and 16 P-40s
bomb a bridge at Puchi, scoring direct hits on both approaches.
  HQ 312th Fighter Wing is activated at Kunming, China.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 257: 127 B-17s and 144
B-24s are dispatched to bomb V-weapon sites in the Pas de Calais, France area
but the strike is cancelled due to bad weather; 7 B-17s bomb Poix Airfield as
a target of opportunity; 2 B-17s are lost, 1 B-24 is damaged beyond repair
and 61 B-17s and 13 B-24s are damaged; casualties are 6 KIA, 1 WIA and 20
MIA. Escort is provided by 213 P-47s; 1 P-47 is damaged.
  Mission 258: 7 of 7 B-17s drop 350 bundles of leaflets on Reims, Orleans,
Paris, Amiens, Rouen and Chartres, France at 2104-2137 hours without loss.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 40 B-26s attack a V-weapon site at
Lottinghen/Les Grands Bois, France; 37 abort due to bad weather.
  Moves in England: HQ 97th Combat Bombardment Wing (Medium) from Marks Hall
to Little Walden; 153d Liaison Squadron, IX Fighter Command (attached to
First Army), from Keevil to Erlestokes with L-5s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 775th Bombardment Squadron
(Heavy), 463d Bombardment Group (Heavy), arrives at Celone Airfield, Italy
from the US with B-17s; first mission is 18 Mar.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-26s bomb railway
bridges NW and W of Sarzana and at Viareggio. hit tracks S of the latter,
and, along with South African Air Force (SAAF) light bombers, bomb Fabriano
marshalling yard; B-25s bomb Spoleto marshalling yard, hitting E and W
chokepoints and line to Terni, and also attack Perugia marshalling yard with
less successful results; and A-36s bomb a railroad station between Orte and
Orvieto while P-40s hit a supply dump near Velletri and gun positions along a
beachhead line directly S of Rome.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-25s from Engebi Island,
Eniwetok Atoll, bomb Kusaie Island while B-24s from Tarawa Atoll hit Ponape
Island. B-25s from Abemama Island and Tarawa Atoll pound Mille Atoll.
  38th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 30th Bombardment Group (Heavy), moves
from Nanumea Island, Ellice Islands to Kwajalein Atoll; the squadron
continues operating from Makin Island with B-24s until 22 Mar.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 2
B-24s, with USN fighter escort, and 22 B-25s bomb the Rabaul area, hitting
the NW part of Rabaul and harbor and waterfront section; and 27 P-39s, P-40s,
and P-38s pound the Wunapope supply area.
  31st Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 7th Bombardment Group (Heavy), ceases
operating from Munda, New Georgia Island with B-24s and returns to base on
Guadalcanal Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): 160+ B-24s, B-25s, A-20s,
P-47s, and P-40s thoroughly pound the Wewak, New Guinea area; US aircraft
claim 8 interceptors shot down. Other aircraft, operating singly or in
flights of 2 or 3, attack several targets in the NE New Guinea-New Britain
area. In the Admiralty Islands, Hauwei Island is cleared of enemy opposition
and artillery is brought ashore.
  340th Fighter Squadron, 348th Fighter Group, moves from Finschhafen to
Saidor, New Guinea with P-47s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 07:33:35 CST
From:    jesse carnes <[email-masked]>
Subject: B-17 computer programme

Dear All on WW2 :

Have any of you guys heard of a video game entitled "B-17, Flying Fortress"?
Frank Donofrio, head of the Memphis Belle group in Memphis, sent to me a flyer
which advertised it (guess he really knows how much I DO love the Fortress).
The copyright on the computer game was 1993, so it is not antiquated.

Anyone hear of this game?  Any specs. on it?  How much memory is needed?
How good the graphics?

Jesse Carnes
[email-masked]
Baton Rouge
LSU

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 07:42:09 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Polesti raids misinformation

Hello, Jesse!

The main raid over Ploesti, Rumania occurred on 1 August 1943. You
may already have that info, but was just making sure.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 09:03:55 EST
From:    Aldo <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Kublinka Tank Museum

I'm sure the list would like it, but if you don't post it, please e-
mail me a copy too (my address is below); it sounds interesting.

> Recently I visited the Russian tank museum at Kublinka on the outskirts
> of Moscow. I was most impressed by the collection of Soviet prototypes
> and the Maus on display. I am currently writing an article on it for an
> Australian newspaper and rather than posting it on the server, if anyone
> would like to read it, please mail me. Athol Yates

Hi Athol,

I would liketo read it. Could you email it to me?

Thanks,

Roger Pinkston

Aldo M. Hubert
                                           [email-masked]
University of North Carolina at Greensboro
800 Oakland Ave.
Greensboro NC 27412

Sic Friatur Crustum Dulce

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 09:26:53 EST
From:    Aldo <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: political

Reguarding Churchill, has anyone read the Manchester bio (vols I &
II), if this has allready been discussed, please mutter expletives to
yourselves; if not, please do comment.  Does anyone know when the 3rd
volume is due?

Aldo M. Hubert
                                           [email-masked]
University of North Carolina at Greensboro
800 Oakland Ave.
Greensboro NC 27412

Sic Friatur Crustum Dulce

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 08:50:38 EST
From:    Ralph Marshall <[email-masked]>
Subject: Nisei Camps- My 2 cents worth

        [ Discussion of grandfather's opposition to internment of
          Japanese-Americans]

        I hope that I have made my point that not ALL American citizens
        approved of the act of imprisoning American citizens due to their
        ancestry.

This is the challenge of democracy - heeding the wishes of the
majority without opressing minorities.  I doubt anybody thinks that
ALL Americans have ever agreed about ANYTHING, but it is clear that
the majority of Americans did not disapprove of the arrests.  WWII was
presented as a fight against the Japanese _race_, not just their
current government (compare to the Gulf war where George was careful
to make that distinction), and thus the fact of American citizenship
wasn't as important as heritage.

Think about the situation much more recently during the Iranian
embassy hostage crisis.  Muslims in general and fundamentalists with
beards in particular living in this country were generally despised
without regard to their personal views on the situation.  While we
didn't lock them up to prevent terrorism, there were numerous
instances of private citizens assaulting people who looked like the
enemy; people never really change that much.

Ralph Marshall
Investment Systems Developer, The MacGregor Group
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 09:10:41 -0600
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Burp guns with bent barrels

>
> Just a quick question. Was that weapon you mention, the MP-44, and
> American or German one? The Germans also had invented a submachine
> gun with a curved barrel for use with the infantry. It's primary
> function was to allow the user to shoot around corners.
>
> Terry
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > I don't know about US weapons like that but Ken was referring to the
> > MP-44 that had a barrel curved to about 45 degrees with a special
> > periscope kind of aim point on the front.  Seemed to me like it would
> > be ok for a while but if you ever had to shoot straight your natural
> > reflexes would work against you with that particular weapon.
> >
> > Cheers, Bill Huber / [email-masked]

Hi Terry,

The MP-44 was a German assault rifle.  It fired the 7.92 mm Kurz round
and was the prototype assault rifle that led to the Kalashnikov AK47
and AK74 series as well as the US M-16 series rifles.  One of its
versions was adapted with the curved barrel.

MP-44s are fun to shoot but my personal favorite is the FG-42.  The
FG-42 is the paratroop rifle specifically designed for them as a
result of the disaster they suffered at Crete at the hands of the
Brits.  The German paras were equipped with MP-40s and were not able
to engage the Brits who were using their .303 rifles and Bren Guns
with devastating effect.  The FG-42 (Fallschirm Gewehr model 1942)
fired the same ammunition as the K-98 rifle and the MG-34 machine gun
ie. a full size cartridge comparable to the US .30 cal and the Brit
.303.

The FG-42 had two models and both are sweet to shoot.  If you ever
get a chance to try one (and you enjoy that sort of thing) then by all
means do it.  The MP-44 feels like a toy (to me).  You can feel the
and hear the recoil spring going back and forth and it just sounds
like a toy machine gun I used to play with when I was 8 years old.

Cheers, Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 10:34:21 -0500
From:    "W. C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Nisei Camps- My 2 cents worth

>From: Ralph Marshall <[email-masked]>

>This is the challenge of democracy - heeding the wishes of the
>majority without opressing minorities.  I doubt anybody thinks that
>ALL Americans have ever agreed about ANYTHING, but it is clear that
>the majority of Americans did not disapprove of the arrests.  WWII was
>presented as a fight against the Japanese _race_, not just their
>current government (compare to the Gulf war where George was careful
>to make that distinction), and thus the fact of American citizenship
>wasn't as important as heritage.

But keep in mind that this mindset was not just the result of an
America that did not understand the Japanese...it was fully promoted
by the powers in Japan.  They called for all Japanese to me mindful
of their nationality, and made it VERY clear that to be a Japanese
meant that they owed allegiance to a Divine Emperor, regardless of
the place in which you lived.  This simply added fuel to a fire that
was already burning.  Look at some pre-war travel books on Japan to
see what we believed to be true.  What might be most enlightening
would be to see what the Japanese High Command expected of the
Japanese Americans.  Did they fully expect mass cooperation?  Did
THEY expect that the heritage would be more powerful than the
citizenship?  What would be the basis for this belief?

>Think about the situation much more recently during the Iranian
>embassy hostage crisis.  Muslims in general and fundamentalists with
>beards in particular living in this country were generally despised
>without regard to their personal views on the situation.  While we
>didn't lock them up to prevent terrorism, there were numerous
>instances of private citizens assaulting people who looked like the
>enemy; people never really change that much.

Again, keep in mind that there was more than one reference to the
internment camps as being 'protective custody'.  Whether just
rhetorical justification or true empathy, many saw the camps as a
way to protect the Japanese-Americans from an angry, uninformed
public.  I seem to recall numerous incidents (some fatal) where
Japanese Americans were attacked after Dec. 7th.  If memory serves,
the Police Chief of LA stated that he would be unable to guarantee
the safety of Japanese Americans within his jurisdiction and this
was given as a justification for the relocation.

It is truly a complex question...to write it off as immorality, or
racism, or any other 'singular' explanation is improper.  I have
always held that for it to have happened with little or no loud
opposition *seems* to indicate that many people accepted it as the
right thing to do for the Japanese-Americans, in their best interest.
Clearly this segment of the population could not be accused of
racism as the motivating factor.  Well-meaning people have often done
grave wrongs, that is nothing new.  Perhaps a look at some editorials
from the LA TIMES of the period might be enlightening.  Anybody have easy
access to these?

Bill
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 09:35:44 -0600
From:    Jeff Dingbaum <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Nisei Detention Camps ... and the alternatives

Justin,

At the risk of extending this discussion...
It is my humble opinion - and just my opinion - that they were locked up
out of fear.  Fear that they would help Japan win the war by doing any
number of things here in the US.  Were those fears justified?  Common
sense says yes, there were probably a handful of people to watch out for.
Hell of a price to pay, though.

Jeff Dingbaum
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 09:21:45 CST
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: B-17 computer programme

I believe I've seen this game---if it is the one I am thinking of, it
was quite good--it allowed you to fly in any of the positions of the
B-17, from ball turret, tail gunner, navigator, and pilot.  It also
allowed you to fly in a variety of aircraft, to include the ME-262,
ME-163, ME-109, FW-190, and allied aircraft as well.  A friend of mine
has it---I was very impressed by it.  I can call my friend and find out
more details if this sounds like the same game you are referring to.
TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 11:23:55 -0500
From:    "W. C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: B-17 computer programme

The game sounds like SECRET WEAPONS OF THE LUFTWAFFE, available with
many different aircraft variants, including an F-80 if I am not
mistaken.

Bill
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 08:35:14 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: Demise of Listowner...

Larry, I am sorry to hear of the stress of administering this board plus
your schoolwork.
You have done such a good job... setting up this list, and diplomatically
handling us querulous folk who haunt your creation.
My very best wishes and regards.
--- Sidney.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 17:32:39 GMT
From:    Dmitri Brasoun <[email-masked]>
Subject: Blitzkrieg

Dear Eric,

If you are interested I could tell you some remember of
my grand father about German Eastern Blitzkrieg. To onset
of war he was a colonel of Soviet Army and served not far
from border (in Belorussia, 20km from Brest to south).
22, June (black sunday) he was in division.
        But firstly, I would like to cite Marshal Zhukov
(by memory, becouse I have not russian books with me). One
year before war he commanded by Ukranian War District (it
practically coinside with present-day Ukraine). The
neighbouring Belorussian War District are headed by General
Pavlov. In view of to check the readiness of army Stalin
desided to do War Game in 1940. The head of "blue" (western
enemy) was Zhukov,and head of "red" was Pavlov.
Zhukov:
"When I estimated the desposition of "reds", the natural
conditions, the proximity of "reds" to border, absence of
any good fortresses (Soviet border was changed in 1939) on
the new place, I understood that there is only one way to
attack: narrow tank breakout forward, surrounding,  and the
destruction of opponent." The "reds" were destroyed during
several days! After game Pavlov said that it was "unfair",
it was strong discussion between Pavlov and Zhukov, Stalin
said nothing. One of the reason was the soviet war doctrine,
which concluded - the quick reply strike and the following
strugle on the territory of enemy (and small blood, of course).
By this reason the army was concentrated practically on the
border itself. "Why at that time I didn't insist on the
change in desposition? It's complex question for me. May be
I was afraid Stalin? Not. I always said truth in the face
to him. May be main reason was all of us believed in the
genius of Stalin."
        Germans used the situation on 100%:
What is blitzkrieg? My opinin:
1.Strong cloud of desinformation. Up to last
moment Hitler wrote very "confidential" letters to Stalin,
explaining, for example, consentration of corps on border by
the desinformation company opposite England. And Stalin
believed! Why? May be it's Friendship pact, may be his old
symphathy to Germans (he didn't like England-Americans), may be
simple phsycology. It is not known. But NKVD reported all facts
about german activity.
2.Propaganda. For example, Gebbels wrote in everyday
own notions: "I am
satisfied by our work. We have set three radiostation: one
with Russian nationalist direction (opposite to communist
who slaved Russia), second with trotskist direction (opposite
the stalinists who destroyed Revolution ideals), third with
nationalist direction on different languages (opposite Russians
who slaved other peoples)." It's devil flexibility.(And some
people speak about the "limited" Nazi).
3.Tactics of quick, mobil and consentrated strike on the definite
directions. Surrounding enemy and following destruction.

        My grandfather served in Pavlov district. At 22 of June
all was repeated as in 1940' games. He told me  that they couldn't
dress, not speaking to run up to position. The massive air bomb
strike and tanks, tanks... The struggle was begining directly
at the  threshold of houses. Germans didn't stop at points where
was resistance and simple avoided it, remaining its to second
ehelon of attack. My grandfather, fan to say, without trousers
at the fire collected live people and leaded them in wood.
        Of course, it was full catastrothy.
        After Some  day of retreating, they viewed the following
picture (from wood): the German column moved along the road (German
bombed all things exepting roads). Fofward the car with loud-speaker
went (absolutely undefendent - Germans were sure so) and declaired:
"You can exit yet from woods and unite to us to struggle with
Bolshevics. Who will not do it, those will be destructed by forces
which go after us". Of course, there were some people who exit.
Also after first days there were a lot of people who became mad.
        It was full chaos. Practically the main part of Western
Russian Army was be destroyed during two weeks.
        As for my grandfather, he and 6 soldiers yet (from polk~
1000!) transfered front only in September. In any case I have to
note that banner of polk was kept.

And General Pavlov was executed by order of Stalin for "criminal
mistakes".

I am glad if I heled you in something.
Regards,
                                                Dmitry.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 10:32:32 -0600
From:    Ann Shillinglaw <[email-masked]>
Subject: internment camps again

I thank Christopher Morton for his reply to my opinions about the
internment camps question.  But I feel there is probably a gulf in
perceptions about this issue that will never be breached from either side.

While not all concentration camps in Nazi Germany were death camps, all
death camps were also concentration campus.  Hence the fuzzy perception of
the phrase "concentration camp."

While concentration camps in Germany were not created SOLELY to
exterminate humans, you know, of course, that mass extermination of humans
occurred at concentration or internment campus -- mass killing did not only
take place in the more focused death campus.

To compare the operation and purpose, or, more importantly, the death,
destruction, suffering, and loss which took place within the confines
of German concentration or internment camps and that which occured in
American concentration or internment camps for Japanese-Americans strikes
me, still after all this discussion, as a crucially flawed misreading of
history.

I suspect a comparison of numbers of deaths that occurred in
German concentration or internment camps with the death figure for
American concentration or internment camps would show how appropriate or
inappropriate it is to compare the two as wrongs committed by society.

Maybe we'll have to agree to disagree on this one!

Ann Shillinglaw
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 10:43:41 CST
From:    jesse carnes <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: B-17 computer programme

Dear All ;

No, actually the name of the software IS "B-17, Flying Fortress" ... unless
the advertising flyer was a misprint.
I am open for correction, if need be.

Jesse Carnes

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 08:58:38 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Sound Weapon

Perhaps the most universal use of a piece of music during WW2 was the
tune LILI MARLENE.  ('Hope you consider this to be on topic. If not,
by all means ignore.)
        Originally an Afrika Korps song, it was taken up by the British
Eighth Army, and became the soldier's song of the Mediterranean theatre
of war.
        The lyrics were written by a german poet, Hans Lipp, and first
recorded in 1938, but sold only a few hundred discs.  When the war came
along, the song was retiltled ( would you believe) "Lied eines jungen...
somthing ot other", oh yeah "Wachtpostens".  Hardly a grabber.
        The officer in charge of programming for Radio Belgrade, which
beamed music to the Afrika Korps, put the "Young Guard" song on one
night as a 'lights-out'.  It became an instant hit, not only with the
germans, but with the British, and the Italians.
        It was sung by Lale Anderson, a berlin cabaret performer. Despite
her recording's huge success, she made very little money, as so few discs
had been sold.  Lale Anderson moved to Canada after the war, and died in
Winnipeg, Manitoba, in the 1970s.
        Though not exactly a sound-weapon, there surely never was a more
successful humanizing of the soldier on the other side than, "My own
Lilli Marlene..."

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 09:01:00 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hitler's Holidays: What Nations?

Hitler did not visit Japan, secretly or otherwise.
Hitler did not set foot in England, though his brother lived there
for many years.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 09:16:03 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hitler's family, Hitler's Money ???

While Hitler was not a plunderer like Goering, Der Fuhrer by no means
"died penniless".  His income from (compulsory) sales of MEIN KAMPF,
alone, made him a fortune. However, AH's personal lifestyle was quite
frugal, joyless my most standards, but then he had thar rare compensation
of living a magnificent obsession.
His family... he was oddly cocldtowards them. Ignored his sister and brother,
Alois, who spend the war in obscurity, with no "influence" at all, as
owner of a small country inn.
Maybe Adolph never forgave his brother for siring an English nephew. :-)

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 09:33:37 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: NOST Extant Rubble

You might enjoy, AVIATION ARCHEOLOGY, by Bruce Robertson, published
by Patrick Stevens, UK, 1977.
It's a collectors guide to aircraft wrecks, airfields, and research.
Mainly covers Britain and Europe.
Ecellent treatment of the whole subject or a/c recovery, etc.,

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 12:40:08 -0500
From:    "John E. Kollar" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Nisei Detention Camps ... and the alternatives

Besides noting the different use of terms, we all admit that
this was a dark age in the history of American, from the internment
of the Japanese to the firebombing and nuking of enemy cities.
I have tried to reflect on what we are discussing and I find that
besides us all saying how bad it is, we are not saying too much.  True
there has been a large discussion about the words used to describe the
camps, but once someone finds out the truth about the camps, the
term used is incosequential. 'A rose by any other name is still a rose'
paraphrasing(?) Shakespeare(?), but once someone knows the nature
of a rose, regardless of the name the nature is still known.  My point
is that could anything be done about the past?  Besides trying to be
on our guard against what could happen in the future, and teaching
the next generation the difference between what is right and what
is expedient(?) (I want a spell check on this thing!!!!!) is an important
lesson.  As long as the truth is used in describing the internment
camps in CA, I see no problem in using the term 'concentration camp'
but what I object to is people just using the term in passing and
allowing people to get the wrong idea.   Concentration camp means
something to the populous, so if they hear this term they
immediately think of gas chambers, furnaces, and other implements,
but when one hears the term internment camp, nothing comes to mind,
and I hope that it would lead people to look up the facts for themselves
rather than just jump to a conclusion based on little evidence.
I am sorry for this rambling post, but I am not clear on what we are
trying to acomplish beyond getting annoyed at each other.  I
don't want to end the discussion, I just want to know if there is
a point to it.  I again state that I deplore the internment camps
for there was no real reason to do this, but on the other hand I
let the bombings go because it was a world war, and we were fitting
fighting for our nation's very survival, I don't condone it but
I see why it might have been neccessary.

Note:When the term 'Nisei shot to death'  I thought that you
        were talking about many people to, and your comment to
        the person who responded to your post I believe was gross
        and unfair.  You made a comment without any explanation,
        then shot down someone else because you didn't like their
        comment.  Then you have the gall to say that you don't have
        the source near you and can't mention the facts behind
        your comment.  This is irresponsible and if you can't
        find your source you should not make the comment here
        but in the Enquirer.
        To:You know who you are.

John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 09:41:00 PST
From:    Julie Jenkins <[email-masked]>
Subject: Nisei Concentration Camps

I know that people are totally sick of this question but I just have to respond
to the saugnuiness (if I can say that) of some remarks.

We can't try to soften the crime by hoping that we were acting out of fears for
Japanese Americans' safety.  Some people are responding as if the inmates enter
ed some kind of time warp when they were rounded up and that time started again
when they were released.  Those people were dispossessed.  Cleaned out. Lost
everything.  You don't impoverish people and simultaneously say, we're doing
this to protect you.  You especially don't quote the mayor of LA in the 1940s
or the LA Times--the MOST ignorant, conservative paper in the country and the
police chief of one of the most racist, conservative cities in the country at
that time.  The LA of the 1940s is not today's LA neither is the Times.  There
were no Pulitzers and bigtime foreign coverage back then.  Don't forget we're
talking Zoot Suit Riots time.

And of course, no one went as far as the Germans, but I agree with everyone who
keeps insisting that a camp where people are concentrated against their will is
a concentration camp.  People died behind barbed wire.  The pyschology of the
camp commanders would be interesting to investigate.  They acted like normal
prison wardens.  But they had those people at their mercy.  The fact that they
weren't sadists doesn't mean that they couldn't have been.  As we all know,
people are capable of doing whatever they can imagine.  There could have been
horrific situations that would have come out afterwards; and people would have
been stunned afterwards.  But the damage would have been done.  As the more
limited damage was done.

It's not a misreading of history to see the parallels.  What it reminds us is
that people have the same propensities:  to round up the "Other," take the pro-
perty and hope the problem disappears.  It also keeps forcing us to admit how
dificult it is to protest or do anything constructive when the state has deci-
ded to act.  Did any whites protect Japanese American property?
I know the ACLU took the case to the Supreme Court--the very fact that there
was a case, of course, points up the difference between the US  and Germany,
but the ACLU lost and the Supreme Court voided its responsibility--and where
is the QUALITATIVE difference between that and a German court reviewing and
upholding the race laws?

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 09:59:14 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Nisei Detention Camps ... and the alternatives

Yes, as you say, the Nisei detention was the outcome of simple fear,
and rage.
It is pointless to judge Americans of 1941 who had been suddenly
attacked, by the detached standards of 1994. An interval of 50
years tends to cool heads more than a bit.
The same internment of Japanese happened in Canada at the time. (A
point that may possibly of little interest here  :-)  )  The same
moral hand-wringings are discussed often in Canada, too.  But, other
than to express regret, to what real purpose?
As you implied, passions ran hot in December 1941. There was a national
paranoia that Japanese residents may commit sabotage. The fact they
did not do anything of the kind, only became evident later.
        THough not typical in any way, it might be of passing interest
that one of very few Japanese soldiers executed for atrocities against
Canadian prisoners of war was a Canadian-born Japanese. Not meant as a
"slur", but a minor point relating back to racial tensions, on both sides,
at the time.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 10:03:25 PST
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: internment camps again

The debate about the purpose/result of Nazi concentration camps is an
echo of the very purpose of that name being used in the first place.
"Concentration camp" was chosen by the Nazis for its very ordinariness.
The phrase sounded innocuous, ambiguous. From some of the misconceptions
still voiced today, the semantic ploy worked very effectively.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 13:04:47 -0500
From:    "John E. Kollar" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Nisei Concentration Camps

Julie,
        I read your post with great interest, but I also want to know,
what should we do then?  I believe I speak for all when I say that
this was a dark section of US history, but is there anything left that
we can do to change it, or should we just watch out for the future?
Should we right to the supreme court or our senators (this is not a joke
but a serious suggestion) telling them that the abortion of justice
evident in this decision is abhorent to all Americans?  But, should
we then decide to make the American government pay them for their
sufferings, or should a personal apology to all concerned be ok?
I am not sure that I like the money idea, because to put a dolloar
value on a human being is not something that I like, but maybe
a memorial at one of the camps, with say the LA mayor and the LA times
giving support and apologies might help?  But I really don't know.
Should an apology to expected or not, I think that we are covering
new ground here with the idea that a state should try to right the
wrongs that they committed.  I am serious in all aspects of this
post and am looking for serious ideas about how we could either
(strike either)(we meaning our country et al) make amends for
the wrongs that we committed.  Or maybe no state should have to make
amends, but only let the next generation say how bad that was then turn
around and make their own atrocities?  I really am not sure?

Note:This only applies to Internment camps for Americans of Japanese
        descent.(I use this term because this is what they proved
        themselves to be.)

John E. Kollar

p.s. I think we might have an interesting idea on how a state should
        be responsible, like a person, for it's misdeeds.  Does
        anyone have any information about this happening in other
        states or previously in our country.

p.s.s.  Till after spring break fellow WWIIbuffs.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 12:40:45 CST
From:    Phyllis Soybel <[email-masked]>
Subject: Suspension of mail

Once again, please stop posting to my account until April 15th, 1994; I
will be abroad and will be unable to check my mail.
Thank you,
Phyllis L. Soybel

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 08:39:56 -0500
From:    Robin Hood <[email-masked]>
Subject: Red Ball Express

Greetings...

Can anyone out there supply information about General Patton's Red
Ball Express situated in North Africa...A friends father served in it
and is interested in finding out more info...

Regards...

JIM

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 14:01:17 -0500
From:    "W. C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <[email-masked]>
Subject: <No subject given>

>this to protect you.  You especially don't quote the mayor of LA in the 1940s
>or the LA Times--the MOST ignorant, conservative paper in the country and the
>police chief of one of the most racist, conservative cities in the country at
>that time.  The LA of the 1940s is not today's LA neither is the Times.  There
>were no Pulitzers and bigtime foreign coverage back then.  Don't forget we're.
>talking Zoot Suit Riots time.

Julie...think long and hard about what you have posted in this paragraph.
You have stereotyped the people of LA, you have attacked both the mayor
and the chief of police (neither of which, I would bet, that you knew)
based on a perception of the city in which they worked.

You have denounced a whole city based on the supposed deeds of a few...all of
which is secondhand knowledge at best.

Isn't that exactly what some did with the Japanese Americans?

Bill
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 14:11:17 -0500
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Nisei Concentration Camps

> From:           Julie Jenkins <[email-masked]>

> I know that people are totally sick of this question but I just have to respond
> to the saugnuiness (if I can say that) of some remarks.

>From a lurker stepping out of the shadows -

What can I say, I'm very sorry the internment of the Japanese Americans
happened.  Yes, it was very unjust.  I'm also sorry the bombing of
Hiroshima took place. And I'm also tired of having to apologize for our
for our country's past. It was war and during war events occur that would
not occur at any other time; like the deaths of many thousands of brave
American service men. We didn't start the war and had no choice but
participating. I'm not trying to condon anything that we did that was
immoral or otherwise; but a lot of people, other than the interned
Japanese Americans, suffered during World War II and lot's of families
were disrupted and split apart so that we have the luxury today of sitting
before our computer screens and communicating like we are doing now.

Just my 2 cents worth, also.

Stepping back in the shadows ...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis                                            [email-masked]
Raleigh, N.C.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 14:11:11 EST
From:    Jorge Merino <[email-masked]>
Subject: B-17 flight simulator

I know there is one from Microprose. I've seen a picture of it in some
screen of F-15 Strike Eagle III.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 21:01:21 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hitler's family, Hitler's Money ???

On Thu, 10 Mar 1994, Sidney Allinson wrote:

> While Hitler was not a plunderer like Goering, Der Fuhrer by no means
> "died penniless".

Yet in his last will he demanded that the paintings that had been 'plundered'
on his behalf would be put in a museum in Linz. I wonder how the
collection of the Fuhrer compared to that of the Reichsmarschall...

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 14:55:33 EST
From:    Jorge Merino <[email-masked]>
Subject: WW-II flight simulators

Here is a list of some flight simulators that resemble WW-II aircraft:

Dambusters            - Avro Lancaster simulator
                        (Very old. CGA mode only)

Night Raider          - TBF Avenger simulator
                        (Very old. CGA & EGA modes)

Ace of Aces           - De Havilland Mosquito simulator
(Accolade)              (Very old. CGA mode only)

Battlehawks 1942      - Includes F4F Wildcat, SBD Dauntless, TBF Avenger,
(Lucasfilm Games)       A6M "Zero", D3A "Val" and B5N "Kate"
                        (EGA/VGA mode)

Battle of Britain     - Includes Spitfire, Hurricane, Bf-109, Bf-110, He-111,
(Lucasfilm Games)       Ju-87, Ju-88 and Do-17
                        (EGA/VGA mode)

Secret Weapons of the - Includes B-17, P-47, P-51 (I'm not very sure),
Luftwaffe               Me-163, Me-262 and Go-229 (Horten flying wing)
(Lucasfilm Games)       (EGA/VGA mode)

B-17 Flying Fortress  - B-17 Flying Fortress simulator (I've not tested it)
(Microprose)            (full VGA mode, 256 colors)

And here are some WW-II ships and submarine simulators:

Gato class submarine  - Gato-class submarine simulator (USS Gato, I supose)
(Spectrum Holobyte)     (Very old. CGA mode only)

Sub-battle simulator  - A WW-II submarine (I don't know what kind of sub)
(EPYX)                  (Very old. CGA mode only)

Destroyer             - A WW-II destroyer
(EPYX)                  (Very old. CGA mode only)

There is also a Sherman tank simulator, I don't know who produces it.
I hope this list could help those guys interested out there.

Have a nice day,

Jorge

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 15:19:24 EST
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Detention camps, Concentration camps, or Internment camps?

On Wed, 9 Mar 1994 15:27:50 -0600 <[email-masked]> said:
>Ken, I am concerned that the "PC generation" may be trying to
>  perpetuate the falsehoods/exaggerations it is being taught
>  by the/my Vietnam generation.  That is why I am curious to
>  know if you are a teacher.

It is undoubtedly clever of you to allow the inference that I am "perpetuating
the falsehoods/exaggerations. . . being taught by the/my Vietnam generation"
but ultimately bootless, as I am not of the "'PC generation'" nor am I a
teacher, nor have you shown that there are any such falsehoods, nor that
they are relevant to WWII.

>I agree with one and all that the incarceration of Japanese-
>  Americans during World War II was illegal and immoral --
>  obviously.  However, I challenge the mentality and motives
>  prompting others to distort the issue as one of "concentra-
>  tion camps."

You haven't proven that the issue is distorted.  One might, using your logic,
challenge those who would distort the issue by using pale euphemisms.  But in
fact, challenging motives is no substitute for good reasoning.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 13:05:19 -0800
From:    Jim Benn <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: B-17 computer programme

The game Tim describes sounds like SECRET WEAPONS OF THE LUFTEWAFFE.
It's a fun game which does allow you to fly in a number of US and German
planes, and in various B-17 positions as described.  Great graphics.  You
do need some arcade skills, but their is also a campaign component which
allows you to select production of V weapons, jet fighters, etc (as the
German)  or bombing targets as theAllies.  I like it.  Just bought ACES
OVER EUROPE, but it's maddeningly slow on my 386.  You'd need a 486 and
lots of storage forAOE.

I am looking for a good strategy game for my laptop; is there a toll free
order  number for Strategic Simulations, mentioned in an earlier post?

Thanks.

 *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*> Jim Benn  [[email-masked]] <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=*
 |-=[        Auto-Graphics, Inc.       ]=[      /~~)       /~~)           ]=-|
 |-=[        8 West Main Street        ]=[     (__(_UTO - (__/RAPHICS     ]=-|
 |-=[        Niantic, CT  06357        ]=[              .___/             ]=-|
 *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*>  PHONE: 800-733-6939 = FAX: 203-691-0183  <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=*

On Thu, 10 Mar 1994, Tim not Timothy Scherrer wrote:

> I believe I've seen this game---if it is the one I am thinking of, it
> was quite good--it allowed you to fly in any of the positions of the
> B-17, from ball turret, tail gunner, navigator, and pilot.  It also
> allowed you to fly in a variety of aircraft, to include the ME-262,
> ME-163, ME-109, FW-190, and allied aircraft as well.  A friend of mine
> has it---I was very impressed by it.  I can call my friend and find out
> more details if this sounds like the same game you are referring to.
> TAS
>
> ************************************************************************
> *  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
> *  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
> *  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
> *  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
> *  ID# [email-masked]                             *
> ************************************************************************
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 16:46:52 -0500
From:    Stan Koper <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: B-17 computer simulation (is this on-topic?)

>Dear All ;
>
>No, actually the name of the software IS "B-17, Flying Fortress" ... unless
>the advertising flyer was a misprint.
>I am open for correction, if need be.
>
>Jesse Carnes
>
I haven't played it, but it's recent, which means it requires
lots of hard disk space, at least 4 megs of memory, VGA graphics
or *better*, and don't forget a sound card, and a joystick.

I may regret mentioning this, but what the heck:  there is a
bundle of B-17 Flying Fortress, Aces of the Pacific, and Secret
Weapons of the Luftwaffe, all *three* together, for about $50 at
Computer City.  If there's one near you, and they didn't sell
them all out at Christmas (I think not), they might have some
left.

This is *not* to be confused with that inferior 3-game bundle
that includes Secret Weapons, "1942", and I think
"Battlehawks", or some other equally inferior game.

Also, be advised that when games are bundled for cheap like
this, it usually means that  *new* and *improved* (tm) versions
are on the way.

Just my 2 cents

Stan Koper
[email-masked]
plus  a change, plus c'est la m me chose
     This message brought to you by uqwk and Yarn 0.58

p.s.  I picked up Heroes of the 357th for $16 last year at
Egghead, and I haven't seen a new version *yet*.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 16:27:07 -0600
From:    Ann Shillinglaw <[email-masked]>
Subject: propagandexhibit

I wasn't sure if everyone on THIS list knows of the following item
which appeared on another list I belong to.  If interested, the other
list also had a description of a center for propaganda research in
Canterbury (England).If anyone wants to see THAT one as well, let me know
and I will forward it to this list.

From:   SMTP%"H-WOMEN Women's History discussion list <[email-masked]>"    10-MAR-1994 14:39
To:     ASHILLINGLAW
Subj:   Propaganda exhibit (fwd)

The National Archives in Washington has just opened a new exhibit,
"Powers of Persuasion." It's basically an exhibit of World War II
American propaganda. The exhibit runs through Feb. 28, 1995.
================== RFC 822 Headers ==================

Return-Path: [email-masked]
Received: by lfmail.lfc.edu (UCX V2.0-08)
        Thu, 10 Mar 1994 14:39:16 -0600

Ann Shillinglaw
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 18:00:08 -0500
From:    Justin Gustainis SUNY-Plattsburgh <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: PC History/Politics:  The Battle of Words

Dear Lou,

What can I say?  You've unmasked me.

It's true, I'm part of the Great Conspiracy of academics/media/social
workers/Anarcho-Syndicalists/effete snobs for peace who are dedicated
to bringing this nation to its knees.  I'm only a minor cog in the
machine, but my cover story has held up pretty well--until now.

We've been doing pretty well so far haven's we? We caused America to
lose Vietnam (some folks claim it was because we were trying to fight
a guerrilla war with conventional means, but you and I know better,
don't we, Lou?)

We pretty much figure that if we can get enough Americans to start
referring to the "internment camps" as "concentration camps," then
the revolution will be but a heartbeat away.  After we've taken over, I
hope to be named Commissar of South Miami Beach--someplace warm, anyway.

In a way, it's kind of a relief that you've blown my cover, Lou.  One
gets so tired of living a lie all the time.  Gotta go--it's almost
time for my shift in our basement bomb factory.

VIVA LA HUELGA!

Justin

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 12:16:38 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Nisei Detention Camps ... and the alternatives

>
> Justin,
>
> At the risk of extending this discussion...
> It is my humble opinion - and just my opinion - that they were locked up
> out of fear.  Fear that they would help Japan win the war by doing any
> number of things here in the US.  Were those fears justified?  Common
> sense says yes, there were probably a handful of people to watch out for.
> Hell of a price to pay, though.

COMMON SENSE?  How come "common sense" didn't dictate interning the GERMAN
Americans when GERMAN spies had been discovered?

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 12:56:30 -0500
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: internment camps again

> To compare the operation and purpose, or, more importantly, the death,
> destruction, suffering, and loss which took place within the confines
> of German concentration or internment camps and that which occured in
> American concentration or internment camps for Japanese-Americans strikes
> me, still after all this discussion, as a crucially flawed misreading of
> history.

You have to consider too the similarities:

1) Victims targeted by race or ethnicity, irrespective of any ACTS.

2) Dispossession of the victims, and profiting by the victimizers from the
property of the victims.

3) Subsequent attempts at "revisionism".  Watch "The FBI Story" with Jimmy
Stewart.  There's a claim that ONLY spies, etc. were imprisoned.  My mother
pointed that out to me as a lie, the ONLY sagacious political assessment she's
EVER made, so it can't be THAT hard to figure out, especially for someone
alive at the time.

> I suspect a comparison of numbers of deaths that occurred in
> German concentration or internment camps with the death figure for
> American concentration or internment camps would show how appropriate or
> inappropriate it is to compare the two as wrongs committed by society.
>
I've never claimed that the mortality figures were comparable.  But then to
me, ONE U.S. citizen imprisoned OR killed because he belonged to the "wrong"
ethnic group is too many, and makes us uncomfortably similar to the Germans
and Japanese.

> Maybe we'll have to agree to disagree on this one!
>
No doubt.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 19:05:28 -0400
From:    John Peterson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Nisei camps

Haven't we heard enough of this discussion?  It's obvious Lou will continue
to call the camps "internment camps" and Justin will call them "concentration
camps", and no amount of argument will change that.  As far as I'm concerned,
what is important is not the name, but the knowledge of what happened during
the war.  Which is why I'm on this list, not to hear you two flaming each
other.  Please make your attacks on the personal level and keep the list to
more important things.  I think (hope!) I speak for more than myself.  This
is only semantics, people.  Words is words.  Knowledge is power.  (So what if
it's a cliche?) :-)

Sincerely,
John Peterson
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 20:02:20 -0500
From:    Daniel Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Nisei Detention Camps ... and the alternatives

> COMMON SENSE?  How come "common sense" didn't dictate interning the GERMAN
> Americans when GERMAN spies had been discovered?
>
I think you will find that in WWI German-Americans were rather badly
treated. In another generation, however, they had become sufficiently
integrated into the larger society that there was no large-scale German
bashing. (I am sure there were individual cases.)

It is easy to condemn the treatment of Japanese Americans, but recall
that in the winter of 1941-42 there seemed no reason to believe that
California was safe from invasion, and not much reason to think that an
indigenous Japanese-American population would not rally to the "Four
Corners of the World Under One Roof" program of Japanese imperialism.

Since we won the war, it is easy to overlook the fact that for six months
we were very decisively losing it.

Regards -

Dan Ford      <e-mail: [email-masked]>

              <postal: 433 Bay Road, Durham NH 03824 USA>
              <voice or fax: +1-603-868-5850>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 21:37:41 -0500
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: INF: Strategic Bombing of Germany

> I am trying to find information on the strategic bombing campaign conducted
> by the RAF and USAAF.  So far the day by day accounts of USAAF operations
> have been useful, but I'd also like to find a couple of good general
> overviews of the campaign and well as micro-detailed information like the
> orders of battle and TO&Es for the RAF, USAAF and Luftwaffe squadrons that
> took part in the campaign.
>
> That said, I can find many books on the topic (especially when it comes to
> the broad sweep of the campaign), but what I am looking for is some advice on
> what I should definately read, what I might want to look at, and what I
> should avoid like the plague.
>
> I am just begining this research project, so any leads to information sources
> would be very much appreciated.

I'll put in my two cents worth for all of Martin Middlebrook's books
'The Battle Of Hamburg' 'The Nurenburg Raid' an ones on Schweinfurt & Berlin.
Each book takes the single battle apart in detail as well as providing
organizational information and technical data.  They also are what I consider
very readable.

>From a different perspective I also liked 'Combat Crew' by (john?) Comer. This
is in diary format and covers the combat tour of a B-17 top turret gunner
during 43. For a pilot and unit commander's perspective there is 'Screaming
Eagle' written by a Squadron Commander in the 8th AF (can't remember the name
right now and can't find the book) I got both in Paperback in the last couple
years.

Good Luck

Bob Smart ([email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 10 Mar 1994 22:14:07 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: PC History/Politics:  The Battle of Words

This seems like a good time to put the PC discussion behind us...

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 9 Mar 1994 to 10 Mar 1994
************************************************