Subject: WWII-L Digest - 14 Apr 1994 to 15 Apr 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 16 Apr 1994 00:00:47 -0400

There are 26 messages totalling 1172 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. good riddance (2)
  2. WEAP: Early Jets
  3. Oh, Ricky He's So Fine...
  4. Kasserine (4)
  5. Hs-294
  6. good riddance TO YOU!!!! (2)
  7. Daimler-powered Spitfire photo
  8. 36th Infantry Division (was Kasserine)
  9. Riddance and Gross Deutschland
 10. Walter Boerner book, question
 11. Russian front, end of war...?
 12. Hitler corpse found?!! (2)
 13. DDAY the longest day....
 14. MAKE.MONEY.FAST (6)
 15. Wright-Patterson AFB

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Apr 1994 00:09:34 EDT
From:    John Sloan <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: good riddance

HI Joe and all,  Thanks Joe for the quick reply to whomever that was who did
not have the grace to fade away as quietly as he observed the list.  I
personally find the WWII air force chronologies one of the most interesting
items I get from over a dozen different lists. I am carefully saving them all
into a special file.
Keep up the good work
John sloan

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Apr 1994 08:48:53 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Early Jets

>
> Peter,
>
> > Nakajima MXN1 Kitsuka
>
> The 'Nakajima MXN-1 Kitsuka' is probably the 'Kikka'. The translation
> usually given for 'Kikka' is also 'Orange Blossom'. The designation MXN

KI tsu KA is an orthographic convention.  It's not pronounced KI TSU KA,
it's pronounced KIK KA.  The character "tsu" indicates that the consonant
succeeding it is to be repeated, ergo "Kikka" instead of merely "Kika".

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Apr 1994 00:54:28 PST
From:    "Jones, Scott T." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Oh, Ricky He's So Fine...

     Ricky Prado wrote..."  "

     "I am glad to say that I have unsubscribed to this listserv."

     SO AM I...

     "It typified many listservs in that it was a personal sounding board
     for a select few on a subject they imagine themselves authorities."

     COMING FROM A LISTSERV AUTHORITY, NO DOUBT...

     "I was receiving so many e-mail messages a day that it was clogging up
     my account."

     ALL TOGETHER, NOW... WAAAAAAAAA! WHOEVER SAID "WAR IS HELL" NEVER HAD
     A LOT OF E-MAIL LIKE ME!!!

     "Just how much of the Internet bandwidth do you use by including
     entire messages just to correct a single sentence..."

     OOOPS!

     "...or make some such uninteresting point?"

     UMMMMMMM, LIKE THIS ONE?

     "And how many times must I look at the message below?"

     KEY WORD IS "LOOK". (LOOKING, NOT READING.)

     "Is it posted on a daily basis?"

     UMMMMMMMMMM.....

     "Should I memorize it to save you the trouble of posting the d**n
     thing?

     On the whole, my experience with this listserv has been very dis-
     appointing. I say good riddance and helloooo disk space!"

     IT MUST BE NICE TO KNOW THE ANSWER TO "WHAT ARE YOU, SOME KIND OF
     MORON?"

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Apr 1994 13:20:35 MET-1
From:    Bognar Attila <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Kasserine

Hi Don,

I have read your post and also of those who agreed with `every word'
of it. This inspired me to put a word or two in the discussion.

 [part of the message deleted]

> What the Americans could have learned from the British to prevent it
> is questionable.

I'm not near my notes at the moment but I am definitely sure that Ike
does admit in his `Crusade' that they were inexperienced. You, too,
have said that. So did Rommel. May I refer to his invaluable `Krieg
Ohne Haas' (I don't speak German and I quoted from my memory - hope
the spelling is OK). This has appeared in Hungarian so I presume it
can be read in English too.
But once the greeness of the American forces (what is no shame at
all!) is admitted then what is this sentence about? It contains
nothing FOR the Americans but something AGAINST the British. Fair?

        [parts deleted again]

> Of course we didn't
> have the ability of Montgomery to lose 200 tanks in a day no ground
>  and gain no ground
> in front of Caen, ...

Excuse me, but I find these remarks very embarrasing. Let me, please,
refer to the strategic plans made long before D-day that exactly said
that the British forces would tie down German armour so that the
Americans on the right will be able to break out relatively easy. If
it meant the loss of 200 tanks a day then that's it. (Still I have
the feeling that 200 is a little-bit exaggerated.) Let me suggest
Hasting's `Overlord', Wilmot's `The Struggle For Europe', Ike's
`Crusade' or any honest report on Normandy as references.
I know that the battle for/around Caen is a very controversial issue,
but I believe that a huge part of it was originally generated by
those officers who grew impatient about Monty's achievements, largely
on grounds of american public opinion discontentment. (As Bradley
himself said: `We must be patient and grin'.)

>... or annihilate an airborne division at Arnhem, and come back
> and say it was exactly what we had planned.

Could you, please, state a reference for this? I think this never
happened. Market-Garden was a catastrophy and it had many reasons.
Monty was responsible for many of those reasons but not all. Ike was
also to be blamed (at least in my view) and Monty did admit it was
not successful. We can discuss the extent to which this or that
person was responsible but to put the blame on one guy only is not
honest. Especially not this way.
I have had a private discussion with Doug McCabe who is an expert on
this, if you're interested I can provide you with the essence that
we have been talking and arguing about.

On the other hand why is that noone speaks about the Battle of the
Bulge as a catastrophy? Even Ike admits that they have anticipated a
German counterattack and that the Ardennes seemed to be a very likely
area for that, still he did not act accordingly and was much taken
aback when the Germans did launch their assault.

It's an argument that might never end. I believe had Ike not been so
much eager to advance on a wide front the Battle of the Bulge would
never have happened. It costed 80.000 men....

Sorry for the lenght, I promise I'll try to learn how to keep it
shorter.

All the best,

Attila  [email-masked]

An aspect of East European existence: "How far to go which way when
we want to see where the wind sits?"

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Apr 1994 08:14:40 EDT
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Kasserine

Walt,

Earky in the war, the Brandenburgers were indeed a German Army special
long range recon and commando unit.  As the war progressed, and Admiral
Canaris grew out of favor with Hitler, the Brandenburgers role was
taken over by other units like Skorzeny's commandos, etc.

The training element of the Brandenburgers and the rest of the active
units were formed into a Pz Gren Div, which at that late stage was
probably never more than a kampfgruppe in size (according to my
history of the Grossdeutschland division by Helmuth Spaeter, a Knight's Cross
holder from Grossdeutschland who commanded the division's recon battalion in
Russia).

Barry

>> the Brandenburgers, later Pz Gren Div Brandenburg
>> Pz Div Kurmark
>> the Fuhrer Begleit (Escort) brigade
>> the Fuhrer Grenadier brigade
>>
>> Barry
>>
>> Barrett F. Lowe               RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
>> MAJ, IN
>> Dept of Physics, West Point  (e-mail:  [email-masked])
>
>Barry:
>
>Weren't the Brandenburgers some form of WW2 German Special Warfare group?
>Some form of Commando, maybe?  I seem to recall the existence of some
>special group under that name that specialized in infiltration tactics on
>the Eastern Front.
>
>Walt
>[email-masked]
>[email-masked]
>[email-masked]
>

Barrett F. Lowe               RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, West Point  (e-mail:  [email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Apr 1994 07:00:26 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Hs-294

Hello, Gudmundur!

Here goes with some more info on a previously post dealing with the
Hs-294.

                            Hs-294

A controlled glide-bomb for the attack on shipping developed in 1940
by Henschel. No record of its use in operations is in existence. In
general construction, it was similar to the Hs-293 but had a warhead
of more ogival shape to permit underwater entry and penetration of a
vessel's skin. The wings and propulsion guidance unit were grooved so
as to shear off on entry into the water and leve the warhead to
travel like a torpedo relying on its impetus to carry it to the
target. The warhead was impact fuzed but also had a water-log self-
destruction fuze set to the average underwater range  so as to
salvage something from a near miss. Launch weight was 2176 kg with
1250 kg warhead carrying 650 kg of high explosive. It used the Kehl-
Strassburg radio link guidance system and was to be dropped from a
Heinkel He-177 aircraft.

The following variations of the Hs-294 are recorded:

  V1-the first test vehicle. Only a few of which were made.

  A0- Principally used for hydrodynamic tests.

  V2- The A0 improved with spoiler control. Only 36 were completed to
contracts which required 300.

  294A- A model for aerodynamic testing.

  294B- The A0 converted to wire guidance.

  294D-The A0 converted to television control.

  294A-1: An experimental project of which few details are known.

  More later.

  All the best.

  Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Apr 1994 07:30:58 -0400
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: good riddance TO YOU!!!!

I say good riddance to you!!! You obviously don't know a good board when you
see one. If you were in the middle of a good conversation, would you tell
everyone to shut up, you've heard enough or your ears are full?

Kevin

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Apr 1994 09:26:23 -0400
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Daimler-powered Spitfire photo

Regarding my earlier posts about the Spitfire that was captured
by the Germans and re-engined with a Daimler Benz engine....

I finally found a photograph of the aircraft.  It's in volume one
of William Green's "Famous Fighters of the Second World War".
The text mentions that the aircraft was stripped of armament,
and a 1475 hp DB605A engine installed, with the resulting aircraft
weighing in at 6000 lbs, compared to 6417 lbs for an operational
Spitfire V, from which the hybrid was derived.  At 22,000 feet,
the aircraft acheived 379 mph, compared to the 385 mph for a
similarly powered Bf 109G at the same altitude.

I promise that this is the last time I'll mention the aircraft
on this list.  Unless, of course, someone else brings it up first!
:-)

Dennis E. Sparks
[email-masked]
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Apr 1994 10:13:47 -0400
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: 36th Infantry Division (was Kasserine)

"Mr. Scott Hannon" <[email-masked]> writes:
> The 36th ID went on to fight in France and Germany in 1944/45 with the
> US 7th Army, where it was probably second in effectiveness only to the
> elite 3rd ID. But right, the div never forgot about Italy. There is at
> least one book just on the Rapido river crossing fiasco, and another on
> the div in Italy. Plus the divisional history.
>
> The 45th ID had also fought in Italy for a while before ending up in the
> US 7th Army (w/36th ID).

        In May 1944, the 36th was shipped to Anzio during the breakout,
driving east toward an undefended gap between Velletri and Valmontone
toward Highway 6, when Clark ordered it to change directions and hit
the Alban Hills for Operation Turtle because Clark was so obsessed with
capturing Rome.  The logistics of having several divisions (34th, 45th,
36th) make a hard left turn during an offensive delayed all operations
including the remaining, weakened force still driving eastward.  This
allowed the Hermann Goring division to fill the gap and block the capture
of Valmontone long enough for the German Tenth Army to escape to the north.
Since Highway 6 was the only major N/S artery available to the Germans,
its loss to them would have been catastrophic.

        In the meantime, the 36th along with the other divisions hit the
German Fourteenth Army at its strongest point in the Alban Hills, south of
Rome.

        Not only did Clark not bag a German army which may have shortened
the Italian campaign, but in ordering the turn, he disobeyed direct orders
from Alexander.  Further, the capture of Rome was actually delayed since
the capture of Highway 6 would have made the German Caesar line untenable
and would have forced the Germans to withdraw north of the city.
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
I'm not interested in defenders, I'm interested in hotels, OK?  Hey,
look, you have to think of us as tourists.  I don't want any military
information, I just want to know which hotel is the most comfortable.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Apr 1994 10:17:44 EDT
From:    Richard Kaplan <[email-masked]>
Subject: Riddance and Gross Deutschland

I feel mildly embarrassed because Mr. Prado is a student, or at least has a
mailer at the Library School of which I'm only partially proud to be an alum
of; SLIS at the University of Pittsburgh.  Many of the classes require their
students to monitor an active list, so I don't rightly know if he was wall-
flowering out of interest or because he had to, and selected us.

As for the Gross Deutschland being confused as an SS division, Charles
MacDonald devotes some discussion to this in A Time for Trumpets which I'm
reading at the bedside for what seems to be forever.  In the chapter concern-
ing Kampfgruppe Peiper (Joachim), MacDonald specifically states that there was
confusion around the participation of the Gross Deutschland because the Fuhrer
Bigleit Brigade was expanded with veterans of the GD (a panzer battalion and
panzer grenadiers); the implication being they didn't get identifying documents
or unit insignia when they came over.  This caused Allied intelligence some
confusion and concern since they had (correctly) pegged the GD to be on the
Eastern Front.  (Time For Trumpets, p.470)

                                        Richard Kaplan
                                        [email-masked]

P.S. I have nothing against lurkers, I've been there.
     But if he thinks we're bad, he oughta try a library
     list.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Apr 1994 10:53:10 EDT
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: good riddance TO YOU!!!!

Hey Group,  Before this gets even more out of control calm down.  :)
He is gone so don't waste your breath... I really had a hard time trying
not to flame at 1. that guy and 2. the rest of the fine folks who lost it
trying to defend the list & owner.  It is superfluous even to write at all
to someone who doesn't "get it" Why bother? Life is too short!  Although I
I must admit I am not always overjoyed to read about fighter engines or the
like......BUT! there is a wealth of information that is important to me
and I get to have that as well.

I don't flame over what is said on lists or on BBs anymore.  I don't even
defend Texas or (other things dear) to mewith my magic keyboard.  Course
if ya want to come here and say em to my face.....  :)   Have a great Weekend!

H. A. Kurt Luginbyhl
Scientific Computer Specialist
National Museum of Natural History
Washington D.C. 20560

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Apr 1994 08:44:24 -0700
From:    Mark Stanford <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: good riddance

On Thu, 14 Apr 1994, Ricky Prado wrote:

>         I am glad to say that I have unsubscribed to this listserv. It
> typified many listservs in that it was a personal sounding board for a
> select few on a subject they imagine themselves authorities. I was
> receiving so many e-mail messages a day that it was clogging up my
> account. Just how much of the Internet bandwidth do you use by including
> entire messages just to correct a single sentence, or make some such
> uninteresting point? And how many times must I look at the message below?
> Is it posted on a daily basis? Should I memorize it to save you the
> trouble of posting the d**n thing?
>
>         On the whole, my experience with this listserv has been very dis-
> appointing. I say good riddance and helloooo disk space!
>
Although I disagree with the gentlemans analysis of this listserv, I
think he brings up a valid point when it comes to using entire messages
when replying to a post. Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't Net
protocol call for just including enough of the original message to make
the reply meaningful or recognizable to the reader? I realize that there
is a lot of traffic here and this would be helpful for those of us that
have to pay for our disk space. To those of you who do post, unlike
"lurkers" like myself, keep up the good work, I am learning a lot!

Mark Stanford
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Apr 1994 09:59:27 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Kasserine

You've probably already read it, but there's a good study of the
Brandenburgers in KOMMANDO: German Special Forces In WW2, by James Lucas.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Apr 1994 15:45:03 -0400
From:    "Mr. Scott Hannon" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Kasserine

Bognar Attila writes:

> why is that noone speaks about the Battle of the Bulge as a catastrophy?

Because at least here in the USA The Battle of the Bulge is seen as a
great victory for US troops (troops, not SHAEF!) and a near complete
defeat for the Germans.

> Even Ike admits that they have anticipated a German counterattack ...

A German counter-offensive was seen as a possibility, but the Wacht Am
Rhein plan combined with a lack of "Ultra" derived intel fooled the
Allies into believe the Germans had decided to save their forces for a
defensive fight. It was certainly a big intel failure.

> I believe had Ike not been so much eager to advance on a wide front
> the Battle of the Bulge would never have happened.

That is such a drastic change in Allied strategy that IMO it would be
difficult to speculate in a meaningful way on what might have been the
overall course of the war on the western front.

Scott.
Scott Hannon, Fri Apr 15 1994 ([email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Apr 1994 15:26:19 -0400
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Walter Boerner book, question

I've just finished reading Walter Boerner's book, "In Defiance".

As I mentioned in an earlier post to the list, Boerner was a guest
speaker at the USAF museum at Wright Patterson AFB last autumn.
Briefly, Boerner was the son of a German diplomat living in S. America.
When they returned to Germany, Boerner eventually became a fighter ace
in the Luftwaffe, before being condemned as a traitor and sentenced to
be executed.  He escaped prison during a bombing raid and made his way
to Allied lines, and ended the war flying P-47s for the French against
the Germans, all before his 17th birthday.

I wish I could recommend the book because it's an account from inside
the Third Reich.  It describes in detail his pilot training, the general
population's fear of the Nazis, the hardships imposed by the war, etc.
But I have questions about some of the events Boerner describes, which
leaves me a little reluctant to recommend the book wholeheartedly.

An incident that Boerner described in his book that seemed rather odd
to me involved what he claims to be first aerial combat.  To be
charitable, I believe this account to be either badly mis-remembered
or an attempt by his publisher to enliven the book.

Boerner claims that he was based at Bucharest, Romania, and that his
first combat was on 2 July 1944.  He states that he and his rotte
(element) leader Berghoff had just bounced a pair of P-51 Mustangs.
Boerner claims to have shot down one of the two, while Berghoff
damaged the other.  Berghoff's Bf 109 was also damaged and he had to
break off the engagement, leaving the second kill to Boerner.  He
claims that he eventually outmanuvered the remaining P-51 and shot it
down.

He states that the second P-51 had a personal insignia on the
fuselage under the cockpit, consisting of a man in a circle with
two words painted around the outside of the circle.  He goes on
to claim that the first word was "Salem", but he could not read
the other word.  He claims that he later found out that the
second P-51 was a 20-victory ace with the 4th FG, which he
incorrectly identifies as belonging to the 15th AF of the USAAF.
(The 4th FG was formed from the three Eagle squadrons of the RAF.
Manned by American volunteers, they were re-inducted into the
the 8th AF in Sept. 42, one of the oldest FG in the 8th AF.)

Boerner does not name the pilot.  But this can only be an account
of the shooting down of Lt. Ralph K. (aka "Kid") Hofer.  Hofer
had 15 aerial victories (and probably some strafing victories)
before being shot down on the date Boerner claims, 2 July 1944.
Hofer's personal aircraft was named "Salem Representative".

*HOWEVER*, Hofer was not shot down in this aircraft.  "Salem
Representative" was a P-51B, serial number 42-106924, and was
coded QP-L.  But Hofer was flying a brand new P-51D that day, which
is reported to have not carried any nose art.  Hofer's P-51B
survived and was later re-assigned and given a new name.

Hofer is generally thought to have been shot down by Erich Hartmann,
the highest scoring ace of WWII.  Also, Hofer was shot down over
Czechoslovakia, not Romania.  These are well documented facts
about Hofer; in fact I have a photostat of the Missing Air Crew
Report (MACR) filed for Hofer's loss.

Can anyone on the list shed any light on this?  Has anyone else
read Boerner's book or know of any other accounts of his life?

Dennis E. Sparks
[email-masked]
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Apr 1994 17:12:41 -0500
From:    Filiberto Farini <[email-masked]>
Subject: Russian front, end of war...?

The russian won the germans, entirely with American armament, right??

What was the german organization in Calais during the 6 june 1944 (Battle of
Normandy)......?

the 6 june 1944 was Mont Saint Michelle attacked in some form, or was a
german base, or rebeld base, or what was it?

What was he reaction of Rommel whern received the notice of the invassion?

Do you think that Hitler had a bad strategy, or was he an idiot military
talking?
 =========================
 Filiberto Farini
 [email-masked]
 Quito - Ecuador
 ==========================

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Apr 1994 17:12:51 -0500
From:    Filiberto Farini <[email-masked]>
Subject: Hitler corpse found?!!

Do you know that 1 or 2 weeks ago was found the Hittler corpse?

What are the versions of its death?

How was involved Russia in this fact?
 =========================
 Filiberto Farini
 [email-masked]
 Quito - Ecuador
 ==========================

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Apr 1994 17:13:01 -0500
From:    Filiberto Farini <[email-masked]>
Subject: DDAY the longest day....

This day was very important for the decision of the war, how did the allied
or where attacked to German supplies?

After the first day of invasion was the allied air force maneuvers as heavy
as it was, or was possible to germans to attack the beachhead through the
air, bombing the provissory ports or supply places, and attacking the naval
innofensive part of americans, supplies of food, guns, munitions, etc...?
 =========================
 Filiberto Farini
 [email-masked]
 Quito - Ecuador
 ==========================

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Apr 1994 17:13:11 -0500
From:    Filiberto Farini <[email-masked]>
Subject: MAKE.MONEY.FAST

: ATTENTION ALL FAST MONEY MAKING SKEPTICS!
: PLEASE READ AND ANALYZE THE FOLLOWING AND DETERMINE
: IF $5 IS WORTH KNOWING IF THIS IS REALLY POSSIBLE!
:
: Forward from others,
:
: ---------------------------------------------------------
: Dear Friends,
:
:      My name is Dave Rhodes.  In September 1988 my car was
: reposessed and the bill collectors were hounding me like
: you wouldn't believe.  I was laid off and my unemployment
: checks had run out.  The only escape I had from the
: pressure of failure was my computer and my modem.  I
: longed to turn my advocation into my vocation.
:      This January 1989 my family and I went on a ten day
: cruise to the tropics.  I bought a Lincoln Town Car for
: CASH in Feburary 1989.  I am currently building a home on
: the West Coast of Florida, with a private pool, boat slip,
: and a beautiful view of the bay from my breakfast room
: table and patio.  I will never have to work again. Today I
: am rich!  I have earned over $400,000.00 (Four Hundred
: Thousand Dollars) to date and will become a millionaire
: within 4 or 5 months.  Anyone can do the same.  This money
: making program works perfectly every time, 100% of the
: time.  I have NEVER failed to earn $50,000.00 or more
: whenever I wanted.  Best of all you never have to leave
: home except to go to your mailbox or post office.
:      In October 1988, I received a letter in the mail
: telling me how I could earn $50,000 dollars or more
: whenever I wanted.  I was naturally very skeptical and
: threw the letter on the desk next to my computer.  It's
: funny though, when you are desperate, backed into a
: corner, your mind does crazy things.  I spent a frustating
: day looking through the want ads for a job with a future.
: The pickings were sparse at best.  That night I tried to
: unwind by booting up my computer and calling several
: bulletin boards.  I read several of the message posts and
: than glanced at the letter next to the computer.  All at
: once it came to me, I now had the key to my dreams.
:       I realized that with the power of the computer I
: could expand and enhance this money making formula into
: the most unbelievable cash flow generator that has ever
: been created.  I substituted the computer bulletin boards
: in place of the post office and electronically did by
: computer what others were doing 100% by mail.  Now only a
: few letters are mailed manually.  Most of the hard work is
: speedily downloaded to other bulletin boards throughout
: the world.  If you believe that someday you deserve that
: lucky break that you have waited for all your life, simply
: follow the easy instructions below.  Your dreams will come
: true.
:
:      Sincerely yours,
:
:      Dave Rhodes
:
:
:       INSTRUCTIONS
: Follow these instructions EXACTLY, and in 20 to 60 days
: you will have received well over $50,000.00 cash, all
: yours.  This program has remained successful because of
: the honesty and integrety of the participants.  Please
: continue its success by carefully adhering to the
: instructions.
:
: Welcome to the world of Mail Order!  This little business
: is a little different than most mail order houses.  Your
: product is not solid and tangible, but rather a service.
: You are in the business of developing Mailing lists.  Many
: large corporations are happy to pay big bucks for quality
: lists.
:
: (The money made from the mailing lists are secondary to
: the income which is made from people like yourself
: requesting that they be included in that list.)
:
:   1)  Immediately mail $1.00 to the first 5 (five) names
: listed below starting at number 1 through number 5.  Send
: CASH only please (total investment $5.00). Enclose a note
: with each letter stating: "Please add my name to your
: mailing list." For other countries the equvielent amount
: may be sent, e.g. in Hong Kong Send HK$10 as this is the
: lowest denomination note.
:
:   (This is a legitimate service that you are requesting
: and you are paying $1.00 for this service).
:
:   2)  Remove the name that appears number 1 on the list.
: Move the other 9 names up one position. (Number 2 will
: become number 1 and number 3 will become number 2, etc.)
: Place your name, address and zip code in the number 10
: position.
:
:   3)  Post the new letter with your name in the number 10
: position into 10 (Ten) separate bulletin boards in the
: message base or to the file section, call the file,
: MAKE.MONEY.FAST.
:
:   4)  Within 60 days you will receive over $50,000.00 in
: CASH.  Keep a copy of this file for yourself so that you
: can use it again and again whenever you need money. As
: soon as you mail out these letters you are automatically
: in the mail order business and people are sending you
: $1.00 to be placed on your mailing list. This list can
: than be rented to a list broker that can be found in the
: Yellow Pages for additional income on a regular basis.
: The list will become more valuable as it grows in size.
: This is a service.  This is perfectly legal. If you have
: any doubts, refer to Title 18, Sec. 1302 & 1341 of the
: postal lottery laws.
:
:        NOTE: Make sure you retain EVERY Name and Address
: sent to you, either on computer or hard copy, but do not
: discard the names and notes they send you.  This is PROOF
: that you are truely providing a service and should the IRS
: or some other Government Agency question you, you can
: provide them with this proof!
:
:    Remember as each post is downloaded and the
: instructions carefully followed, five members will be
: reimbursed for their participation as a List Developer
: with one dollar each.  Your name will move up the list
: geometrically so that when your name reaches the number
: five position you will be receiving thousands of dollars
: in cash.
:
:   1. Patrick Wong
:      9A Fung Yau Street North,
:      Grd Flr Shop 19,
:      Yuen Long,N.T.,
:      Hong Kong
:
:   2. Willis Clingaman
:      820 Michigan Avenue
:      East Lansing, MI  48823
:
:   3. Robert A. Decker
:      307 S. Division #4
:      Ann Arbor, MI 48104-2203
:
:    4. Olivier Hopp
:       3 allie de la Florida
:       91800 Brunoy
:       FRANCE
:
:    5. Darren Govoni
:       13704 Winding Oak Cir #303
:       CentreVille, Va. 22020
:       USA
:
:    6. Lombrano Antonio
:       Viale Stazione 37
:       54100 MASSA
:       ITALY
:
:    7. Kok-Wah Liew
:       P.O.Box 6752,
:       East Lansing, MI 48826
:       USA
:
:    8. Jason Matthews
:       16696 Parklane
:       Livonia, MI 48154
:       USA
:
:    9. Kiel C. Wilson
:       45 N. Belvedere #202
:       Memphis, TN  38104
:       USA
:
:   10. Filiberto Farini
:       Calle Saa y Sodiro # 118
:       Edificio Daniel Cadena
:       QUITO, ECUADOR.
:       SUD AMERICA

: The following letters were written by participating
: members in this program.
:
: To Whom It May Concern:
:
:      About six months ago I received the enclosed post in
: letter form.  I ignored it.  I received about five more of
: the same letter within the next two weeks.  I ignored them
: also.  Of course, I was tempted to follow through and
: dreamed of making thousands, but I was convinced it was
: just another gimmick and could not possibly work.  I was
: wrong!  About three weeks later I saw this same letter
: posted on a local bulletin board in Montreal.  I liked the
: idea of giving it a try with my computer.  I didn't expect
: much because I figured, if other people were as skeptical
: as I, they wouldn't be too quick to part with Five
: Dollars.  But, I buy lottery tickets weekly in my province
: and have nothing to show for it but ticket stubs.  This
: week I decided to look at this as my weekly lottery
: purchase. I addressed the envelopes and mailed out one
: dollar in each as directed.  Two weeks went by and I
: didn't recieve anything in the mail.  The fourth week
: rolled around and I couldn't believe what happened!  I
: can't say I received $50,000, but it was definitely well
: over $35,000!  For the first time in ten years, I got out
: of debt.   It was great.  Of course, it didn't take me
: long to go through my earnings so I am using this
: excellent money opportunity once again.  Follow the
: instructions and get ready to enjoy.
:
:      Please send a copy of this letter along with the
: enclosed letter so together we can convince people who are
: skeptical that it really works!
:
:       Good Luck,
:
:       Charles Kust
:       St Agathe Que.
:
: Another letter:
:   I tried a similar program in which the cost was $5.00
: per response.  In that one the return was about 3%.  Since
: I did not have a modem I sent out letters regular mail.  I
: created a few mailing labels and printed out all of the
: labels on pressure sensitive tape.  The first mailing that
: I used the $1.00 dollar per reponse approach I started to
: get return mail in just over one week!  I sent out 200
: letters instead of 100 that is required if you use the
: mail instead of the bulletion boards.  Additionally, I
: included as many friends, relatives, classmates, that I
: could think of in order to encourage their participation
: if they happened to recognize my name, so my percentage of
: gain was higher.  I am trying again with 500 letters to
: see if I surpass the $141,000 of the last time. You just
: won't believe it until you try.
:       Best Wishes,
:       Mark Garner
:       Dallas Texas
:
:
: Additional Notes:
:
:      This system works equally well if mailed out
: manually.  Mind you it takes more effort to hand address
: the envelopes and the cost goes up proportionately to
: cover the postage and envelopes. You must also photo copy
: the instructions, cross out the name in number one
: position, write in your name in the number ten slot and
: change the rest of the numbers accordingly. (It might be
: neater to use white out or paste over the names.) In order
: to achieve the same results you must send out the $1.00
: dollar to the first five names and then send out another
: 100 letters with copies of the program enclosed.  It has
: been suggested not to put a return address on the outside
: of the envelope in order to encourage the recipient to
: open it.  The return will approximate that then received
: from the posts listed on the bulletin boards.
:
:
:      Hello, my name is Steve Prester.  As you may have
: noticed I'm the tenth name on this list, so I do not have
: a rags-to-riches story to tell here.  However, I did make
: a phone call to the 2nd name on this list, Ernest Goyette.
: Did he have a rags to riches story to tell? Not exactly,
: but then I found out that he did not follow the
: instructions precisely.  You see, Ernest lost faith in
: the program before he had finished following instructions.
: He only uploaded this file on one BBS, which happens to be
: operated by Darryl McGinnis, the 3rd name on this list.
: Ernest told me that he has received $92.00 to date
: (1/6/90).  I realize this is far from the $50,000.00
: promised at the first of this file, yet one must keep
: two things in mind:
:
:  1. $92.00 is almost 10 times his initial investment, and
:     it only took about an hour of his time (there's
:     nothing to lose).
:
:  2. This program works mathematically on an exponential
:     scale.  In other words, for every one BBS that this
:     file is uploaded onto, it should spread to at least ten
:     other BBSs and possibly a whole lot more. So, if Ernest
:     had uploaded his file on all ten BBSs, he should have at
:     least gotten a hundred-fold of what he has, which would
:     be $9200.00.  Not bad for a few hours work and a $6.25
:     investment (including postage).
:
: Finally, I would like to exhort those who become involved
: in this program to maintain its integrity by being honest.
: It is the only way that it can possibly pay off.  In other
: words, be sure to enter your name at the bottom of the
: list and not in one of the top five positions (actually
: this would be robbing yourself since it is while your name
: is in the lower positions that it gets multiplied
: exponentially over hundreds of BBSs).  And, of course,
: send your $1.00 off to the first five names.  As I write
: this I have not made a penny (that's because I have not
: uploaded this yet), but I thought you might like to hear
: from someone at the bottom of the list, instead of someone
: claiming rags-to-riches.  I hope such is true, and I'm
: sure it will be if we all stick with it.  The potential is
: definitely here!
:
:    P.S. Call me if you get rich.
:
: Hello,
: I am the current #10 on the list, I too am sceptical.
: Well what do we  all have to lose.  It is worth a try
: in order to realize some substantial gain.  Don't any of you
: out there want to upgrade your PC's.  I certainly do, but
: can't afford to.  I hope that this program will make enough
: cash in order to buy a super system.
:                                  Nua Nicaj
: ----------------------------------------------------
: Hey There! Glad your thinking about this seriously because
: I am! If all these people are making money then why not be
: included with them and get some also? I'm going to be #10 on
: this list, and Im uploading it everywhere! If you have the
: access :) then follow through, upload it, and see what happens!
: Hey, Imagine earning enough to buy a 486? or one of those high
: speed modems that cost hundreds of dollars? What about buying
: your OWN BBS ? Who wouldnt want to be the Sys-Op of their VERY
: OWN board? I know I wouldnt mind :) What do you have to lose
: but 5 bucks compared to the hundreds and thousands you CAN make?
: I know Im down.. Will you be the very next to EARN some cash?
:                                            Talib Khan
: ----------------------------------------------------
: Hello, I'm Stephanie Kemach and I am now the tenth person on
: this list.  I'm trying out this idea in the hopes that it will
: pan out, but I've never seen anything like this before.  Still,
: for a meager investment of $5.00, what do any of us have to lose?
: It's worth a try and I'm trying it out now.  Good luck to everyone
: else who uses this great-looking money-making idea.
: ----------------------------------------------------
: This is John Gibbs, call me Gibber.  Stephanie is no longer the
: last on this list, hopefully I can say the same soon.  I agree that
: the investment is quite meager, let's see if everybody can benefit
: from it.  Just a note that Canadians will be happy to accept
: American money at par if it is possible.  Good luck to all!  Bon
: Chance, Au Revoir.
: ----------------------------------------------------
: Hi this is Jurgen Kreisel, please add my name to the mailing list.
: I am the new kid on the block as the last person on this list. I have
: always been told that if it sounds to good to be true it probably
: is, but what the hay I can blow 5.00 at the video store and get
: nothing for my money either. Well here goes nothing.
: ----------------------------------------------------
: Hi! I guess I'm now No#10. I have never done anything like this before.
: I never even reply to chain letters. I guess I am doing this one coz I
: think its actually gonna work. If it doesn't I simply lose a bit of
: money (which I probably would have lost at the race meet tommorow
: anyways). Time to find out if this thing really works....
: ----------------------------------------------------
: Well gee shucks! ...i guess i'm now the 10th dude on this list, as always
: u might feel that this is NOT going to work and that people are not gonna
: start doing this crap and mailing people money, but hey! ...it's only 5
: bucks
: US isn't it? ...what've u got to lose eh? i'm certainly gonna try since
: right
: now a bit of money wouldn't be bad while trying to get into a good
: university
: with all the hassles of school!
: ...seeya lateR! =)
:                             Sanjay Purswani
:                                    09/02/94
: ---------------------------------------------------
:       I am compelled to investigate this! I'm skeptical but
: it's worth a try.

:                                       Darren 3/21/1994

: -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
:         Why not ? I want to try this, it might work !!! Don't be skeptical,
: try it NOW !!!   Ah, one last thing: I'm Italian, but I appreciate all kind
: of foreign money. So don't worry and send your dollar !!!
:
:                                          Antonio 23/March/1994

: -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
:       Hey I've got nothing better to do with my five dollars.
: What the hey?                         Jason March 28, 1994
 =========================
 Filiberto Farini
 [email-masked]
 Quito - Ecuador
 ==========================

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Apr 1994 19:09:42 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MAKE.MONEY.FAST

This appears to be a classis pyramid scheme, and if so, illegal by Federal
law. In either event, it has NO place on a WWII list.

Suggest the FBI be contacted for clarification...
                                                                Steve:-(

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Apr 1994 20:50:22 -0400
From:    John Peterson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MAKE.MONEY.FAST

It seems to me this is not only illegal, but a waste of net resources and
inappropriate for this list.  I suggest immediate removal from the list,
and send a letter to the postmaster at that site.  In the last few months,
it seems that more and more often crap like this finds its way into even
quiet little corners like ours.  I hope this isn't the way of the future, or
I'll be in line to trade in my modem for something more useful.
Well, enough of that.  Back to WWII, please!  Wish I was in CA for the
beautiful shows this weekend--8 B-25's, what a sight!  Bob G., let me know
if Miss Mitchell finds her way to Central NY someday!

Cheers all

John Peterson
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Apr 1994 22:40:21 -0400
From:    Joe Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MAKE.MONEY.FAST

Mr. Farini,

        Because of your location in South America which may not be
as well connected to the Internet as other parts of the world, you
may not be aware that this message has caused some serious problems
in recent weeks on the Internet, especially Usenet.  You've
demonstrated a sincere curiosity about World War II in general,
and the Normandy invasion in particular so I'll assume that it
was naivete that prompted you to post this message.  Therefore,
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt for this SERIOUS
infraction of posting an illegal, immoral, inappropriate, and just
plain dumb message to this mailing list.  Just don't let something
like this happen again -- otherwise, you'll find yourself off this
list very quickly.

        To the other members of this list: let's remember that this
is completely off-topic and that some people are paying for their mail
so let's forego any responses you wish to make to the list.  If you
feel the urge, please modify the To: line and move it to private email.
Thanks.
--
Joe Barone, WWII-L owner
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Apr 1994 23:07:25 EDT
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor,
         Marist Coll" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hitler corpse found?!!

>Do you know that 1 or 2 weeks ago was found the Hittler corpse?
>
>What are the versions of its death?
>

Hitler is supposed to have killed himself. His corpse was burned
at his orders just outside the Bunker in Berlin...or so I thought.

Jonah Triebwasser
Adjunct Instructor
Marist College
Dyson Building (Adult Education)
Poughkeepsie, New York12601
Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
E-Mail: [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Apr 1994 22:46:52 -0500
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MAKE.MONEY.FAST

In message World War II Discussion List writes:
> : ATTENTION ALL FAST MONEY MAKING SKEPTICS!
> : PLEASE READ AND ANALYZE THE FOLLOWING AND DETERMINE
> : IF $5 IS WORTH KNOWING IF THIS IS REALLY POSSIBLE!

Please cease forwarding this junk mail to every mailing list you can find.

Irregardless of the fact that pyramid schemes are illegal, this garbage has
been irritating the network for more than a decade.

Keep it off the mailing lists.

--
Robert J. Granvin                                             [email-masked]
University of Minnesota, School of Statistics
         "I'm my father?  I'm my mother?  I'm chipped beef on toast?"

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Apr 1994 22:47:36 -0500
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MAKE.MONEY.FAST

Sorry.  That was supposed to be private only... :-)

--
Robert J. Granvin                                             [email-masked]
University of Minnesota, School of Statistics
         "I'm my father?  I'm my mother?  I'm chipped beef on toast?"

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Apr 1994 22:50:10 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <[email-masked]>
Subject: Wright-Patterson AFB

Is anyone on the list associated with Wright Patterson, or have contacts
there?

I am looking for the history of a particular aircraft, and  would like to
get it via internet if possible.  If not, can someone give me a mailing
address?

Thanks

  =========================================================================
  | DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
  |                                  | Computers in Business & Education. |
  | Recently returned from my second | Education:  Curriculum development.|
  |   extended stay in Prague.       |    International Education, TEFL.  |
  | Working on second book about     | Central Europe:  Post revolution   |
  |   Prague and new Czech Republic. |    economic, social, political     |
  |                                  |    problems and opportunities.     |
  |                                  |  B-25 in WWII.                     |
  | E-Mail:                          | Free lance writing and editing.    |
  |   USA:  [email-masked]    | Stamp collecting.                  |
  =========================================================================

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 14 Apr 1994 to 15 Apr 1994
*************************************************