Subject: WWII-L Digest - 18 Apr 1994 to 19 Apr 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 1994 00:01:21 -0400

There are 66 messages totalling 1972 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Definition of MOS
  2. USAAF Shuttle-Bombing
  3. Question: Night Vision (5)
  4. INF: USAAF 19 APR 44
  5. BIG 3 ON NBC-TV
  6. Operation Sea Lion: A Costly Mistake (5)
  7. TAC: Patton's phantom army
  8. Jets (3)
  9. Sea Lion (the RN part) (9)
 10. Heinz Guenther Guderian Jr. (2)
 11. The Balkans (7)
 12. WWII-L
 13. POL Lend-Lease (4)
 14. MOS
 15. Normandy as choice for Overlord
 16. Balkans
 17. Night Vision
 18. 20 July 1994: 50 year commemoration??
 19. Shuttle Bombing Problems?
 20. Re[2]: TAC: Patton's phantom army
 21. Yugoslavia? (3)
 22. INQ: Partisan Warfare Sources (3)
 23. Re[2]: Russian front, end of war...?
 24. weap:WWII nuclear capability (4)
 25. Rotary-Wing Ramjet Fighter
 26. BARBAROSSA
 27. Re[2]: Night Vision
 28. Request for obscure stuff
 29. Re[2]: Sea Lion (the RN part)
 30. History: 50 Years Ago Today
 31. D-Day

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 Apr 1994 14:56:15 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Definition of MOS

>
> This is probably the wrong place to ask this question, but I know that
> there are some Leathernecks out there who might be able to help me.
>
> A ex-marine student of mine used the term MOS in a recent essay.  I knew
> what he was speaking of, but I asked him to give the actual words instead
> of using MOS.  This way even people unfamiliar with the Corps would
> understand what it was he was refering to.  He did not know what MOS was
> short for and neither do I.  Could someone out there help us with this
> problem.

It means Military Occupational Specialty.  It's your basic task, such as
infantryman, tracked vehicle repairman, etc.

MOSes are different between officer and enlisted ranks, at least in the Army.
As a mechanized infantry officer, I was an 11C00.  An enlisted 11C is a
mortarman.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 Apr 1994 14:59:01 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: USAAF Shuttle-Bombing

>
> SUBJ:  AIR FORCE NEWS SERVICE FEATURES
> ELECTRONIC BULLETIN BOARD FILENAME:  94apr15
>                              &    &    &
>                              &    &    &
>                              &    &    &
> 050.  Army Air Forces' shuttle bombing missions -- 1944
> by Edward T. Russell
>      The idea of shuttle bombing, where bombers take off from a base
> in one country, bomb a target, and fly on to a base in a second
> country, appealed to American airmen as early as 1942.
>      They theorized that by acquiring bases in the Soviet Union they
> could attack Germany from different directions, have a choice of exit
> routes, and force the Germans to disperse their fighter defenses.
> After months of negotiations between the Soviet leader, Joseph Stalin,
> and the American ambassador, W. Averill Harriman, Stalin authorized
> the use of bases at Mirgorod, Piryatin and Poltava, located east of
> the Dnieper river and southeast of Kiev.

Wasn't former Senater George McGovern a participant in this campaign?

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 00:48:52 -0600
From:    Tony Schuler <[email-masked]>
Subject: Question: Night Vision

Fellow inhabitants of WWII,

After a recent windstorm that knocked the power out, I was amazed to be able
to see the detail in the neighborhood. Detail that I may have not seen unless
I was in a certain state of mind.

There was no nightvision during WWII. How dark was it in the countryside?
Did infantry prefer the dark over the light? Was it possible to see detail
in the dark? Can one be accustomed to the dark similar to a cat?

The man (or should I say child) that posted the good riddance message obviously
does not understand history, conversation, or curiousity.

All my best,

Tony Schuler
[email-masked]

P.S. "When the Tigers Broke Free," is exclusively on the movie "The Wall."
The lyrics are wonderful, but they are better when Roger Waters sings them.
I believe his father was killed during WWII, and he has written a lot of music
about war, most notably WWII. I would appreciate interpretations of "The Wall"
via private e-mail.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 06:37:00 EDT
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Question: Night Vision

Tony,

Reference your questions about night operations:

>
>There was no nightvision during WWII. How dark was it in the countryside?

A lot darker than it is today.  Many places did not have street lights and the
amount of ambient light in the countryside was less.  Have you ever been
outside out in the woods far away from any inhabited areas?  You can the stars
much more clearly, but the ground areas are VERY dark.

>Did infantry prefer the dark over the light?

It would depend on the unit and its level of training.  Generally, elite
units like the airborne and the rangers (British commandos, too) preferred the
darkness because enemy observation was significantly reduced.  The Japanese
used night attacks to great advantage early in the war in the Pacific until the
American and Allied soldiers learned to deal with these tactics. The Germans
conducted patrolling operations extensively at night.

>Was it possible to see detail in the dark? Can one be accustomed to the
>dark similar to a cat?
>
Yes, you can learn to see "better" in the dark.  I don't know about being
accustomed to the dark like a cat.  If your eyes have a chance to properly
dilate, and you don't look at any bright lights, you can see remarkably well on
a starlit night.  When it is overcast, well, even the best trained soldier is
going to be as blind as the next.  If you use a scanning technique to spot at
night, and do not stare at a fixed location, you will be able to see more.
This is based on the areas of the eye that are most sensitive to small amounts
of light (I can't remember all the details, I just know it works).  Also,
using a pair of binoculars at night can help a little bit since the binoculars
do "collect" light.

>Tony Schuler
>[email-masked]

Barrett F. Lowe               RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, West Point  (e-mail:  [email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 07:00:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USAAF 19 APR 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
WEDNESDAY, 19 APRIL 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 6 B-25s and 8 P-51s attack troops
and stores NW of Banmauk; 10 P-38s hit the airfield near Meiktila; and 5
P-51s attack troop positions near Mawlu and a bridge at Shweli.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 3 B-25s damage a bridge at Thanh Moi, French
Indochina and score hits on railroad and buildings S of the bridge. 4 P-40s
attack the village of Takaw, Burma, causing several fires and sink a ferry-
boat in the area.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Twentieth Air Force): XX Bomber Command is assigned
to HQ Twentieth Air Force.
  769th and 770th Bombardment Squadrons (Very Heavy), 462d Bombardment Group
(Very Heavy), arrive at Piardoba, India from the US with B-29s; first mission
is 5 Jun.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 308 Part 1: 772 bombers
and 697 fighters are dispatched in 3 forces to bomb Germany; they claim
17-1-6 Luftwaffe aircraft; 5 bombers and 2 fighters are lost:
  1. 271 of 277 B-17s hit the Kassel area, Eschwege Airfield, Limburg and a
target of opportunity; 5 B-17s are lost and 119 damaged; casualties are 1
KIA, 5 WIA and 47 MIA.
  2. 243 of 246 B-17s hit Lippstadt and Werl Airfields and a target of
opportunity; 21 B-17s are damaged; casualties are 2 KIA, 8 WIA and 55 MIA.
  3. 230 of 249 B-24s bomb Paderborn and Gutersloh Airfields, Soest, Koblenz,
Buren and targets of opportunity; 1 B-24 is damaged beyond repair and 10 are
damaged; casualties are 1 KIA, 3 WIA and 8 MIA.
  Escort is provided by 127 P-38s, 439 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s and
131 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-51s; they claim 16-1-2 Luftwaffe aircraft; 2
P-51s are lost and 4 P-47s and 5 P-51s are damaged; 2 pilots are MIA.
  Mission 308 Part 2: 27 of 27 B-24s bomb V-weapon sites at Watten, France; 1
B-24 is lost; escort is provided by 47 Ninth Air Force P-47s without loss.
  HQ 56th Fighter Group and 61st and 63d Fighter Squadrons move from
Halesworth to Boxted, England with P-47s.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): After several weeks of instruction,
a IX Air Forces Services Command training exercise (Operation BOOMERANG) in
waterproofing and landing motor vehicles gets under way. This exercise, in
preparation for a cross-channel movement lasts several weeks and involves 55
units, over 650 vehicles, and more than 2,500 men.
  350+ B-26s and A-20s bomb marshalling yards, city areas, and targets of
opportunity at Gunzburg, Ulm, Neu Ulm, Donauworth, and Schelklingen, Germany;
and fighters fly over 1,200 sorties against a variety of targets in NW Europe.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): Bad weather severely restricts
operations. In Italy, B-26s hit Cecina railroad bridge and Ancona marshalling
yard while B-25s hit a marshalling yard at Piombino; P-47s hit railroad
tracks, a marshalling yard, junction, and railway cars between Pontedera and
Empoli and between Figline Valdarno and San Giovanni Valdarno.
  487th and 498th Bombardment Squadrons (Medium), 340th Bombardment Group
(Medium), move from Gaudo Airfield, Italy to Alesan, Corsica with B-25s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-24s, staging through Eniwetok
Atoll, bomb Truk Atoll. B-25s from the Gilbert Islands strike Ponape Island.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): 21 B-24s bomb the airfield
at Satawan Atoll, hitting the target area with about 50 tons of high
explosives. On New Britain Island, 38 fighter-bombers hit Matupi supply areas
while 7 bomb Rapopo airstrip. Fighters hit the Numa Numa area on Bougainville
Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, B-24s hit
Urarom and Manokwari; B-25s, A-20s, and fighter aircraft strike a wide
variety of targets around Hollandia, Aitape, Bogia, Uligan, Bunabun, Madang
and Cape Croisilles. B-24s of the Thirteenth Air Task Force bomb Woleai Atoll.
  Unit moves in New Guinea: HQ 49th Fighter Group from Gusap to Finschhafen;
HQ 317th Troop Carrier Group from Port Moresby to Finschhafen; the detachment
of the 82d Reconnaissance Squadron (Fighter), 71st Reconnaissance Group,
ceases operating from Finschhafen with returns to base at Saidor with P-39s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 07:09:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: BIG 3 ON NBC-TV

For those of you in the U.S. and Canada, NBC-TV is broadcasting a four-hour
mini-series about The Big Three in World War II, i.e., Roosevelt, Stalin
and Churchill.  In the starring roles are John Lithgow as Roosevelt, Bob
Hoskins as Churchill and Michael Caine (old Alfie himself) as Joe Stalin.
Ed Begley, Jr appears in a supporting role as Harry Hopkins.  The
mini-series will be shown on NBC-TV on two nights at the times indicated
below (NOTE: all times are Eastern Daylight Time!).

Tuesday, 19 Apr, 2000-2200 hours
Wednesday, 20 Apr, 2100-2300

The show is getting good reviews so it may be worth a watch.

Enjoy!

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 07:03:36 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Operation Sea Lion: A Costly Mistake

Hello, David!

One project of which I am aware that was seriously contemplated at
the time and eventually led to the development of the project, was
the B-36, the long-range bomber which eventually became the strategic
mainstay of the Strategic Air Command in the early 1950's.

Originally this project was conceived as an alternative to bomb
England from American bases with this long-range bomber, if England
had fallen to the Germans.

Hope this helps.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 08:08:57 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TAC: Patton's phantom army

Mr. Bryant writes,...

>There were constant "leaks" of official information about the invasion
>that was to take place at Calais.  One night as he left a dinner party,
>Patton waved to a friend and yelled, "See you in Calais!"  Another
>incident involved the discovery of women on an army transport and the
>radio man said to another, "What are we suppose to do with them, take
>them to Calais?"  All of these incidents were part of the entire plan.
>While the Germans concentrated on Patton, Ike was busy preparing for the
>actual invasion plans for Normandy.

One fact I had read about Ike's business was that a dozen papers outlining
the actual Normandy plan blew off a desk and out an upper story window
while the crew was at lunch. Several pages were returned by house wives
and taxi cabs, while children carried some around for days before handing
them over to their parents for return. Ahem. (Sounds like D.C. to me.)
I don't think they ever recovered all of the pages.

;-) Al

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Wild, LAN Mgr.  Father of 1.5             Voice:          (401) 792-2611
ACC - Lippitt - URI  American Legion Post 102. FAX:            (401) 792-5479
Kingston, RI  02881                            Bitnet:           AWild@URIACC
                                               Internet: [email-masked]

Murphy's Uncertainty Principle:    You can know something has gone wrong only
                                    when you make an odd number of mistakes.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 07:16:33 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Jets

Hello, Tony!

You asked if there is a listing for helicopters similar to what I had
posted on German jets, rockets and experimental projects. I do have
such a listing for German helicopters along with data. Please advise
if you want that.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 07:10:10 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Sea Lion (the RN part)

Hello, Gudmundur!

I don't have access to the RN plans in the event of invasion,
however, the British Government was going to commit the entire Home
Fleet in the event of invasion, which, of course, would have resulted
in the sinking of most or all their vessels. Other than that, that is
all that I know specifically that would relate to  your question.
Regarding the submarine fleet, I would think, although I cannot vouch
for this, that they would have been subject to the same
considerations.

Hope this helps.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 08:18:59 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Question: Night Vision

Teh human eye has two different kinds of receptors, or the part that
allows us to see. The deluxe model are the ones which allow us to see
in color, while the back seat model let us see in black and white. (I'm
remembering this from HS biology).

The color vision is fine, but requires more light than B&W. As the darkness
descends, our eyes shift over to the black and white receptors. This allows us
to see more clearly in the dark, but not in color.

One's eyes can adjust greatly in the dark. I grew up in a small New England
farm town, and was often caught exploring the woods at night. While some
nights were darker than others, I was able to navigate well enough. Wouldn't
want to have sentry duty on some of those nights however.

As a point of information, the point of the optic nerve is a dead zone for
our night vision, which is why we are coached to look at things in the dark
from slightly off-center, a practice that I've never mastered.

                                                                $-) Steve

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 14:30:19 MET
From:    Ireneusz Jakobik <[email-masked]>
Subject: Heinz Guenther Guderian Jr.

I watch "Fields of Armour" series on Discovery Channel. Heinz Guderian Jr.
was interviewed for 2 or 3 episodes of this series. Does anybody know
something more about Guderian Jr.? What did he do during WWII?
Irek.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 07:39:51 -0600
From:    Tony Schuler <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Jets

Terry,

That would be great if you could provide infor on Helicopters.

Tony

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 14:04:05 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: The Balkans

Fellow historians of all grades of ace-ness!

I have been "commissioned" to write a very short article for, of all
things, my company magazine on the history of the Balkans with respect
to current horrors.

Whilst I am fairly familiar with the notorious 1914 Sarajevo incident,
and the power struggle of that period,
my grasp of the history of the Balkans between the wars, and during/after
the Second World War is very sketchy.

If any of the WWII-L recipients could "fill in" the gaps with a brief
summary of relevant events during this period, I'd be grateful.
Alternatively, if anyone has any book recommendations that provide
a general history of the Balkans, that would be good too.

Similarly, If any of the MILHST-L recipients could recommend books
that cover the period from the 15th Century onwards
after the conquest by the Ottomans, or if you have any comments /
suggestions, I'd be delighted to hear from you.

Thanks

steve baldwin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 09:07:00 EDT
From:    "Jansen, Raymond" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WWII-L

Hi, Larry

          My  name is  Ray Jansen, I am a librarian at the Western Campus
Cuyahoga Community College in Cleveland.  Our Campus is constructed on the
site of a U.S. military hospital, Crile Hospital, that occupied the site from
1943-1964.  The campus is the process of constructing a veterans' memorial,
and in conjunction with this one of our faculty members is collecting
reminiscences of persons who were either patients at Crile or were employed
there.  Anyone who has memories of Crile on knows of persons with memories
of Crile is requested to send either e-mail of smail adresses to me so that I
may refer them to Mary Hovenec who is the researcher.

     If you could post the above message to WWII-L, we would be most
grateful.  Thanks in advance.

Ray Jansen
Reference/Instruction Librarian
Western Campus Library
Cuyahoga Community College
11000 Pleasant Valley Road
Cleveland, Ohio  44130
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 09:42:25 EDT
From:    Ken Trimm <[email-masked]>
Subject: POL Lend-Lease

What were the bases that Great Britian used as collateral in the Lend-Lease
program? Were they returned after the war?

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 07:01:52 PDT
From:    Darren Harlow
         <SGT=DARREN=S.=[email-masked]>
Subject: MOS

MOS stands for Mission Occupation Specialty.  I hope this helps.

Sgt Darren Harlow - Computer Security
MCTSSA, Camp Pendleton, USMC
Internet: [email-masked]
or another less reliable & slower: [email-masked]
Voice: Comm: (619) 725-2970  DSN (Autovon): 365-2970
Fax:   Comm: (619) 725-9512  DSN (Autovon): 365-9512
PGP Public key available upon request
"The views expressed are my own, and always will be..."

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 09:34:01 -0500
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: The Balkans

Steve,

     I did a graduate project paper on Hitler's Balkans
operation -- something I had known little about.

     I think it was about 15 pages.  My conclusion was that
Hitler was wise in invading the Balkans, and the operation
did not delay "Barbarossa" decisively.

     Revisionism?  :-)

     Let me know if you'd be interested.  I'd appreciate
being credited, of course.

Lou Coatney, Western Illinois University (til 30Jun94)

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 11:16:16 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Normandy as choice for Overlord

>
>     Wasn't the sole reason for Hitler's thinking of the invasion forces
>     hitting Pas de Calais simply because it was the shortest straight line
>     distance from the coasts of England and France? (I understand the
>     Allies had a few exercises or "attention getters" in that area to add
>     credibility to Hitler's beliefs.)
>
>     As an additional question, why were the beaches of Normandy chosen as
>     the point of attack? Why not closer to Berlin or Paris? To what extent
>     did supplies logistics play into this decision? What was Spain doing
>     at this time?
>
>     Scott Jones
>     [email-masked]
>
Scott,

According to Prof. Russell Weigley, the planners under General
Morgan looked at a map of northern France, and Normandy leaps
out as the only real possibility.  Pas de Calais was ruled out
as Hitler expected it, also the beaches were unsuitable.
Netherlands and Belgian areas were eliminated, as they were
beyond the fighter cover range of the Spitfire, the best Allied
fighter at the time the planners were devising the Overlord
operation.  BTW, fighter cover range was an extremely important
factor - Normandy was just at the maximum range of Spitfires,
but it was the only real possibility.  The Atlantic coast of
France was ruled out as there are no real port, beaches, etc.
available.  Supply and logistics were an all-important factor.
The choice of invasion spot had to have a port nearby to bring
in all the required impedimenta of an invading army.  Cherbourg
was close to Normandy, but not too close, and yet not too far.

The deception plan was also devised because Morgan's planners
felt that if Normandy was the only logical possibility in their
minds, then it must be the only possibility to the German
defenders' minds, especially Rommel.

Jim

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-8760
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-8760

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 11:16:56 -0400
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Operation Sea Lion: A Costly Mistake

        It seems to be the list's consensus that the Royal Navy would have
been decimated in any attempt by the Germans to invade.  Regardless of the
outcome of the invasion, I would think that this would have been a tactical
victory for the Germans.  (I'm sure that the German Army would have had
something to say about being used to draw out the RN, but...)  Without the
Royal Navy, U-boat interdiction would have been more profound; also, Britain
would have been hard pressed to resupply her forces in Africa (and later the
Far East).

        If Great Britain capitulated, I don't think the Germans would have
needed a huge occupation force.  They would have set up a friendly government
similar to France's Vichy government and left enough troops to "keep the
peace."  The "Vichy" Brits would have had to deal with partisans.  If this
were to happen, the US couldn't very well invade Britain if this new British
government didn't want them to.  There would have had to have been (goofy
verb that!) a government-in-exile that the US still recognized.  Also,
Ireland was neutral, so the US couldn't invade that country, either.

        As for supporting the Soviet Lend-Lease program, would the
historically anti-communist United States (government and populace)
bothered to support a USSR-by-herself.  I think that without Lend-Lease
for Britain, that support would have tough to garner for the USSR (no
enemy-of-my-enemy logic to justify it).  Nazi Germany was getting some
positive press from the likes of Charles Lindberg (sp?).

        With Britain out of the war and supplies from the US questionable,
the USSR may have sued for peace.  I would say that Great Britain remaining
in the war was crucial to the survival of the USSR.
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
There you go!  More negative waves!  Have a
little faith, baby.  Have a little faith.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 08:33:32 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Question: Night Vision

'Matter of fact, there was a night-vision device used in the Second
World War. It was a night sight, infra-red I think, for use with
rifles and s.m.g.s. The British first introduced theirs in 1943, when
it was used by Commandos as a night-vision sight attached to a silenced
Sten machine-carbine. Useful against sentries...

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 17:38:38 +0200
From:    Anders Ehrnberg <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Balkans

>Fellow historians of all grades of ace-ness!
>things, my company magazine on the history of the Balkans with respect
>to current horrors.
that cover the period from the 15th Century onwards
after the conquest by the Ottomans, or if you have any comments /
suggestions, I'd be delighted to hear from you.

>steve baldwin
>[email-masked]

The novel  "The bridge across the Drina" by Ivo Andric spans almost the
whole history of the Ottoman rule over the Balkans and gives excellent
insights in the minds of people who lived that history. Horrors are not new
to Drina.
Anders Ehrnberg [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 11:46:01 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: POL Lend-Lease

In reply to the mail from <[email-masked]>...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>Date:         Tue, 19 Apr 1994 09:42:25 EDT
>Reply-To: World War II Discussion List <[email-masked]>
>Sender: World War II Discussion List <[email-masked]>
>From: Ken Trimm <[email-masked]>
>Subject:      POL Lend-Lease
>X-To:         [email-masked]
>To: Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <[email-masked]>
>
>What were the bases that Great Britian used as collateral in the Lend-Lease
>program? Were they returned after the war?
>
Ken,

I don't know all the bases we received, but two of them are
Bermuda and Ascension Island.  No, we didn't return them.
Roosevelt might have been prescient, knowing that now the US
would control the Atlantic in the future.

Bermuda is due to close through the Base Closure phase the US
military is now going through.  The British asked, and were
granted, access to Ascension Island during the Falklands War,
for the Vulcan bombing raid.  I know of no plan to return or
deactivate Ascension.

Hope this helps.

Jim

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-8760
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-8760

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 11:31:06 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Operation Sea Lion: A Costly Mistake

>
>On Mon, 18 Apr 1994 10:04:31 EDT Chuck Weckesser said:
>>        I disagree. I believe it would have worked although there would have
>>frightful casualties. On the whole, Ribbentrop, Hitler's "second Bismark," was
>>a
>>pathetic political hack who was unfit to hold the post he did but he quite
>>correct in insisting that England had to be neutralized before "lebensraum"
>>could be realized.
>
>I don't think Sea Lion would ever have worked, although it is just possible
>the attempt would have more or less destroyed the Royal Navy stopping it.
>The Germans simply didn't have a plan in place in the summer of 1940, and
>the German army didn't have a clue as to how to make a successful amphibious
>invasion--invading on a 250 mile front would most likely have gotten them
>defeated in detail, at least from the sea perspective.

> I agree with Ken Koester here.  The Germans did not even begin
to plan Operation Sea Lion until July 16, and they planned to
invade in September (at least at first).  There was no
amphibious doctrine in the German armed forces.  There was no
history of combined operations, Army and Navy, in the history of
the German armed forces.  The Army and Navy could not agree on a
strategy for the landing.  The Army wanted to attack on a broad
front, and the Navy wanted to establish a narrow beachhead.
Give the Germans air superiority over the Channel (which they
never achieved) and they still would have had problems.  The
landing craft were RHINE RIVER BARGES, not very suitable to the
open water of the Channel.  The German Navy did not have much in
the way of protective craft.  The Home Fleet would have taken a
beating from the Luftwaffe, but they had more than enough
strength to defeat any landing.  German U-boats would have been
a non-factor, as the there were only about 45 in existence at
that time, and the North Sea and the Channel are not ideal
submarine conditions.  I don't think that Sea Lion as planned
could have ever succeeded.

Jim

Much deleted

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-8760
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-8760

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 17:41:58 +0200
From:    Anders Ehrnberg <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Night Vision

>As a point of information, the point of the optic nerve is a dead zone for
>our night vision, which is why we are coached to look at things in the dark
>from slightly off-center, a practice that I've never mastered.
>
>                                                                $-) Steve

Steve got most of the facts right but the blind spot where the optic nerve=
=20
leaves the retina has no light receptors at all ; we are all blind in that=
=20
spot. Steve probably was thinking of the maculae (the yellow spot) which is=
=20
the the area of the retina to which central vision is focused. This area is=
=20
the area of sharpest vision but it is only provided with color receptors and=
=20
is therefore in need of bright light. In order to detect very faint light=20
sources during night it=B4s a very good idea to try to look slightly to the=
=20
side of the object. The black and white receptors (rods, color receptors are=
=20
called cones) increase their sensitivity to light 100fold when adapting to=
=20
darkness, this takes 20 minutes or more. They are least sensitive to red=20
light why you should use red light if you need some illumination and don=B4t=
=20
want to destroy your night vision.
Anders Ehrnberg [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 11:18:59 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Operation Sea Lion: A Costly Mistake

Hello, Joe.

You raise some interesting points in your discussion of this issue.

>         It seems to be the list's consensus that the Royal Navy would have
> been decimated in any attempt by the Germans to invade.  Regardless of the
> outcome of the invasion, I would think that this would have been a tactical
> victory for the Germans.

    I am not certain that I agree with this last statement. If the RN
had been sunk, and I mean the Home Fleet, in a last all-or-nothing
effort, that strikes me as being a strategic victory, in that there
would be nothing left, save for the RAF, that could have stopped the
Germans from carrying out a physical invasion of the country.

  (I'm sure that the German Army would have had
> something to say about being used to draw out the RN, but...)  Without the
> Royal Navy, U-boat interdiction would have been more profound; also, Britain
> would have been hard pressed to resupply her forces in Africa (and later the
> Far East).

    That is exactly right, and supports what I stated above. To me
the loss of the entire Home Fleet or any other attendant units would
have represented the unthinkable to the Brits.

>         If Great Britain capitulated, I don't think the Germans would have
> needed a huge occupation force.

    Also true. There was quite a following for a more moderate
approach to do business with the Germans.

  They would have set up a friendly government
> similar to France's Vichy government and left enough troops to "keep the
> peace."  The "Vichy" Brits would have had to deal with partisans.  If this
> were to happen, the US couldn't very well invade Britain if this new British
> government didn't want them to.  There would have had to have been (goofy
> verb that!) a government-in-exile that the US still recognized.  Also,
> Ireland was neutral, so the US couldn't invade that country, either.

    Perhaps, but there was a plan in the works here, should that
scenario transpire, to bomb English bases from this country.

>         As for supporting the Soviet Lend-Lease program, would the
> historically anti-communist United States (government and populace)
> bothered to support a USSR-by-herself.

    Good question, and I think yes. The US was not prepared at that
time to take on the world, and possibly a stalemate would have
resulted forcing the US to come to some sort of accommodation with
the Axis, had the Russians been forced out of the war. Given that
situation, with England out of the way, and the Soviets being the
only ones having physical contact with the Germans, it would have
been in our best interests to support the Russians as fully as
possible.

  I think that without Lend-Lease
> for Britain, that support would have tough to garner for the USSR (no
> enemy-of-my-enemy logic to justify it).  Nazi Germany was getting some
> positive press from the likes of Charles Lindberg (sp?).

    That would depend of course, but with anti-German feeling being
what it was in this country, the Soviets could have and would have
found support for their cause, if nothing else from a strategic
standpoint.

    Regarding Mr. Lindbergh, his tune changed when this country got
into the war, and his views were in a decided minority at that time,
not to mention the fact that his admiration of the Germans stemmed
from the fact that he was impressed with their resilience not being
able to see or not wanting to see beyond that.

  >         With Britain out of
the war and supplies from the US questionable,
> the USSR may have sued for peace.  I would say that Great Britain remaining
> in the war was crucial to the survival of the USSR.

    I will go along with you on that. It was in everyone's interest
for Britain to stay in the war.

    Thanks for allowing me my two cents' worth on this.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 11:25:38 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Heinz Guenther Guderian Jr.

Dear Irek!

> I watch "Fields of Armour" series on Discovery Channel. Heinz Guderian Jr.
> was interviewed for 2 or 3 episodes of this series. Does anybody know
> something more about Guderian Jr.? What did he do during WWII?

    I can help you with this. I will send you more detailed info H.G.
Guderian, Jr. tomorrow. I had corresponded with him. He was in WWII,
having won the Knight's Cross. In the postwar era, he reentered army
service and attained the rank of Generalmajor (Major General).

    I will get back to you tomorrow on more info on him.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 11:28:50 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: POL Lend-Lease

Hello, Ken!

There were several bases leased to the US for 99 years. Among those
were some located in the Gilberts, the South Seas, and I think
Kwajelein was one of them. These bases also later became the sites for
monitoring our space program efforts.

> What were the bases that Great Britian used as collateral in the Lend-Lease
> program? Were they returned after the war?

    Presumably they will be transferred to Britain when the leases
run out.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 11:38:57 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: The Balkans

Hello, Steve!

If you can read German, Otto Kumm's book "Die Geschichte der 7.
Gebirgsdivision, Prinz Eugen" would be an excellent read. This
division was exclusively employed in the Yugoslavia during the war,
and it goes into great detail on the fighting there, particularly
against Tito's forces.

You might also consult Dr. Walter H. Stein's book "The Waffen-SS"
that goes into some detail on this topic.

Also Hitler's Strategy, 1940-1941: The Balkan Clue by Martin van
Creveld is good.

The Brutal Friendship by F. W. Deakin is excellent.

Hope this helps.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 11:40:05 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Jets

Hello, Tony!

It will be a while before I can do that. I will send you a listing of
what I have and then you can tell me what you need.

    More later.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 09:39:35 PST
From:    "Jones, Scott T." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 20 July 1994: 50 year commemoration??

     Chuck Weckesser wrote...

     "I would bet my life that if I pulled 1,000 Americans at random off of
     the streets of America not one of them could tell me who Claus von
     Stauffenberg was."

     Chuck, I am sorry to say that you would have won the bet with me. I
     know the attempted assassination story well, but WAS ignorant as to
     the identity of some of the characters who were involved. Thanks for
     adding to my education!

     Scott Jones
     [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 09:39:39 PST
From:    "Jones, Scott T." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Shuttle Bombing Problems?

     I read the post about shuttle bombing with interest. I am curious as
     to whether or not there were problems with loading Russian bombs and
     such into American aircraft? Or were American armaments already
     located at the bases as could be inferred from the posting? If these
     were already there, how were they shipped there? Railroad from Asia?
     Murmansk Convoy?

     Thanks again!

     Scott Jones
     [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 09:40:39 PST
From:    "Jones, Scott T." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re[2]: TAC: Patton's phantom army

     Alan Wild wrote...

     "One fact I had read about Ike's business was that a dozen papers
     outlining the actual Normandy plan blew off a desk and out an upper
     story window while the crew was at lunch. Several pages were returned
     by house wives and taxi cabs, while children carried some around for
     days before handing them over to their parents for return. Ahem.
     (Sounds like D.C. to me.)
     I don't think they ever recovered all of the pages."

     This reminds me of the story about the NSA (No Such Agency) firing up
     their furnace to destroy SECRET documents. Apparently the furnace was
     not hot enough and the updraft was stronger than expected. They
     managed to pump out about 500-plus pounds of charred yet legible
     SECRET documents into the general area before they realized the
     problem! (The book "The Puzzle Palace" covers this story well.)

     Scott Jones
     [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 09:47:04 PDT
From:    Tim Torres <[email-masked]>
Subject: Yugoslavia?

An argument last night has raised the following questions about Bosnia/
Yugoslavia:

1.  How many men did the Germans have in Yugoslavia during WW2?

2.  How many German casualties were there from partisan activity?

3.  What type of tactics did they use to attempt to control the countryside?

Any help would be appreciated!

Tim T.

=============================================================
|    Timothy A. Torres         |  E-mail addresses:         |
| Computing Information Center |  -----------------         |
|   One Washington Square      |  [email-masked]  |
| San Jose State University    |  [email-masked]    |
|  San Jose, CA 95192-0017     |  [email-masked]           |
|-----------------------------------------------------------|
| Go Sharks!!  Barbecue the Wings! Stanley Cup!  Uuuulf!    |
| Go Giants!!  World Series Champions 1994!  Barry! Barry!  |
=============================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 12:53:35 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Sea Lion (the RN part)

On Tue, 19 Apr 1994 07:10:10 GMT-6 Terry Moore said:
Hello, Terry!

>I don't have access to the RN plans in the event of invasion,
>however, the British Government was going to commit the entire Home
>Fleet in the event of invasion, which, of course, would have resulted
>in the sinking of most or all their vessels.

Maybe yes, maybe no.  Depends on who controls the air, right?  Alternately,
does anyone believe that a) Germany could have launched Sea Lion w/o
command of the air, b) Germany could have gained command of the air?

On a temporary & localized basis, yes to b.  I think no to a.; it would
seem suicidal.  But I don't think any of this would have worked unless
the Germans had anticipated the contengency ahead of time & worked up a
plan that could be put into effect immediately after clobbering France.

ken koester
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 13:00:37 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Question: Night Vision

On Tue, 19 Apr 1994 06:37:00 EDT Lowe Barrett MAJ said:
>. . . .  When it is overcast, well, even the best trained soldier is
>going to be as blind as the next.

Although ground sources of light reflect very well off overcast.  Manteuffel
used this effect to great advantage by beaming hi powered spotlights off the
undersides of clouds to get the attack rolling during the Bulge.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 09:39:31 PST
From:    "Jones, Scott T." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INQ: Partisan Warfare Sources

     I recently came across an article in which a man was discussing his
     involvement with the partisan forces inside of occupied Russia. Can
     anybody recommend a good source of information on partisans? I am
     primarily interested in their tactics, communication methods, weaponry
     and any stories related to their operations. Also, if anyone out there
     feels comfortable with fielding a few "odd" questions about
     partisans/partisan activities, please let me know via private mail.
     Thanks!

     Scott Jones
     [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 12:15:52 -0700
From:    John Holtz <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Sea Lion (the RN part)

> I don't have access to the RN plans in the event of invasion,
> however, the British Government was going to commit the entire Home
> Fleet in the event of invasion, which, of course, would have resulted
> in the sinking of most or all their vessels. Other than that, that is

(SNIP!)

Excuse me, but exactly who would be sinking them?  By the time Seelowe
could be launched (mid to late September 1940 at the earliest), the
Luftwaffe had suffered a bloody nose and the U-boat fleet was still very
weak.  In addition, operating in the narrow waters of the channel or its
approaches would not be any submariners idea of fun.  The RAF and Fleet
Air Arm would have been much more capable of covering the fleet (this
isn't Crete) and inflicting additional losses on the Luftwaffe.

For comparative strengths, see John Ellis' _Brute Force_.  I suspect the
British surface and underwater fleets would have emerged bloodied but
victorious in the event of any ad hoc attempt by the Germans to cross
the Channel.

A colleague has asked for sources that outline "Sealion" and the overall
strategic situation at that time and I would welcome any suggestions.
Please post to my address below.

Thank you.

jwh

--
John W. Holtz, Asst. Professor       INTERNET: [email-masked]
Sangamon State University Library       PHONE: (217) 786-6633
Springfield, IL  62794-9243

  > Opinions subject to change upon reflection or dissipation <

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 13:04:36 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Russian front, end of war...?

On Tue, 19 Apr 1994 01:06:31 +0200 Emmanuel Gustin said:
>On Mon, 18 Apr 1994, Ken Koester wrote:
>
>> However, I have a map of Germany on my wall.  The Dutch coast has caught
>> my eye during this thread.  Why not invade from Amsterdam to Frisia? The
>
>Part of the problem is the 'flatness' of this coast, on both sides of the
>coastlines. The water is shallow, with obvious dangers for an invasion
>fleet; especially around these 'barrier islands' large pieces of land
>surface only at ebb.  The land is also flat, and large parts of it
>are/were below sea level; they can easily be flooded, making life easier
>for the defender. The Dutch defence of 1940 was based on the 'waterline'
>and the Germans and Canadians also made good use of it in 1945.

Yes, but there are fewer defenders/defenses to begin with.  I think I'd
rather deal with any amount of vagaries of terrain if there aren't many
people around than attack into a strong defense.  Use airborne troops to
drop on areas that can control the flooding; they won't have to face armored
opposition because the panzers are all in France, so they should be able to
hold out until relieved, unlike Market Garden.  There aren't mud flats
everywhere, but if you can go to the trouble of building artificial harbors,
why not lay down 8 miles of pontoons to the main coast?  Etc.  I see
difficulties, but the actual invasion had more than its share as it was.
I wonder if the problems associated with invading Holland might have been
exagerated a bit?

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 13:44:46 +0000
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: weap:WWII nuclear capability

On Mon, 18 Apr 1994, DAVID WILMA 415-744-2485 wrote:

--stuff deleted--
>           Nuclear weapons on missiles?  That is a bit of a reach.  Even the
>           U.S. going all out could produce only two airplane dropped
>           weapons by the middle of 1945 and then that was it.  All gone.
>           To expect that of Germany would be too much.  Besides, even with
>           Britain in Allied hands, Hitler was so confident of victory that
>           he discouraged things like new fighter development as a waste of
>           time.
Just out of interest (as is everything on this list I guess), how much of
a part did captured German scientists play in the Manhatten Project? I
always remember that line from Dr. Strangelove (I think) "Our Germans
were better than their Germans" (in reference to the Soviets).
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 13:20:47 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Rotary-Wing Ramjet Fighter

Hello, Gudmundur and Wilber!

Here goes with some more info.

                     Focke-Wulf Projects
                     Rotary-Wing Ramjet Fighter

One of the early convertiplanes developed by the Focke-Wulf Company,
the designing of the rotary-wing ramjet VTOL is quite revolutionary
even today.

Three rotors were connected with a ring in the central fuselage. As
the rotors were driven by ramjets (thrust 840kg or 1850lb each) the
wing rotated.

For take-off, the machine stood in a vertical position with the nose
pointing straight up. A large wheel in the tail of the fuselage and
small wheels at the tips of the 4 stabilizing fins kept the machine
in that position. After vertical take-off by the three rotors, the
machine begins horizontal flight by use of the stabilizing fins.

The VTOL machine was intended for use as a fighter, but only the
flying scale model was experimented with before the end of the war.

The machine was to have : diameter of rotors: 10.7 m; length: 9.20m;
disc area: 16.5 square meters; weight empty: 2800 kg; weight loaded:
5100 kg; max speed: 1100 km/h at sea level, 860 km/h at 15,000
meters; climb time: 8 sec to 1000 meters, 3 minutes to 10,000 meters;
service ceiling: 15,000 meters. Range: 2400 km at 650km/h at 15,000
meters.

Hope this helps.

Gudmundur, I will send you a list of the other projects the posting
of which you may have missed.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 11:29:26 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Sea Lion (the RN part)

As interesting background, THE LAST DITCH, by David Lampe describes the
prepartions made in Britain against the unlikely eventuality of the
German invasion attempt gaining a toehold in England.
Lampe describes the organization of resistance cells, construction of
secret bunkers, and the hiding of large caches of weapons, food, and
radios for use by an armed British underground movement.
As Mr Chuchill said at the time: "What kind of people do they think we
are?"

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 14:27:40 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Operation Sea Lion: A Costly Mistake

On Tue, 19 Apr 1994 11:16:56 -0400 Barone said:
>        If Great Britain capitulated, I don't think the Germans would have
>needed a huge occupation force.

It wouldn't have.  The British government had plans to evacuate to Canada
& continue fighting.

>        With Britain out of the war and supplies from the US questionable,
>the USSR may have sued for peace.  I would say that Great Britain remaining
>in the war was crucial to the survival of the USSR.

Well, supplies from the U.S. were not all that important to the USSR during
the war, not in an absolute sense, and even though people sweated blood to
get them across the Atlantic.  I feel that, given Hitler's approach to the
USSR, Stalin & countrymen would have fought to the bitter end.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 11:47:12 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Sea Lion (the RN part)

(For John Holtz)

        On 29 July, 1940, German Naval Headquarters informed Hitler
that "a landing on the British coast would not be possible until the
second half of September". The report went on to say that even then
the German Navy would not be able to support it [invasion] against
any sustained counter-attack.
        Admiral Schniewind, German Navy Chief of Staff, wrote:
                "It is impossible to accept responsibility for any
                such operation during the current year."

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 13:41:09 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Sea Lion (the RN part)

Hello, Ken!

> >I don't have access to the RN plans in the event of invasion,
> >however, the British Government was going to commit the entire Home
> >Fleet in the event of invasion, which, of course, would have resulted
> >in the sinking of most or all their vessels.
>
> Maybe yes, maybe no.  Depends on who controls the air, right?  Alternately,
> does anyone believe that a) Germany could have launched Sea Lion w/o
> command of the air, b) Germany could have gained command of the air?

    Yes, but, just as the RN was prepared to sacrifice itself, so was
Fighter Command, had it really come to the nuts and bolts of the
issue. What would have happened, is certainly open to speculation,
but you can be assured, that if the Germans were serious about it,
they would have employed everything that could have flown, sailed
everything that could have carried anything relating to the invasion.
In that event, the Germans had an overwhelming superiority of
aircraft, but, of course their surface navy would not have been that
much of a factor. In that case, absolute reliance on the Luftwaffe
would have been essential. I think that the RN would have been hard
put to stop a determined assault, had the attempt been made after the
fall of France.

 On a temporary & localized basis, yes to b.  I think no to a.; it
would
> seem suicidal.  But I don't think any of this would have worked unless
> the Germans had anticipated the contengency ahead of time & worked up a
> plan that could be put into effect immediately after clobbering France.

    I agree with that, and, as you carefully point out, they had no
contingency plans to follow up the invasion of Britain. The mistake
of Dunkirk was compounded with this fatal flaw in German planning.
One other thing, the idea that there was no tradition or experience
in German thinking that could decisively deal with an amphibious
operation may be traced to Hitler's influence as well as that of the
German High Command. Hitler was first and foremost a land animal. He
could not and would not comprehend naval matters, which, of course,
left the Navy high and dry.

    Thanks again. Please comment, if you have any additional thoughts.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 13:49:09 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: The Balkans

Hello, Lou!

I couldn't help but wish to comment on this, since you posted this to
the list, I feel free to comment on some of the aspects of your post.

My conclusion was that
> Hitler was wise in invading the Balkans

    Could you explain this and how did you come to that conclusion?
>From what I have read, it is difficult not to come to the conclusion
that Hitler's outrage over the demise of the pro-Nazi government
there cost Hitler the strategic advantage of time in conquering the
Soviet Union. Had Hitler stood behind his original timetable of
invading the SU on 15 May, in all likelihood, the Soviets would have
bought the farm. Certainly Moscow could have been taken sooner and
the total collapse of the SU would have been a real possibility.

, and the operation
> did not delay "Barbarossa" decisively.

    It may not have delayed "Barbarossa" or the start thereof, but
that 5 week delay, among other tactical mistakes, cost Hitler the war
with the SU, in other words, it did affect the outcome.

    Thanks for allowing me to add my two cents' worth to this.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 11:59:55 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Sea Lion (the RN part)

(John Holtz...)
        After the Royal Air Force defeated the Luftwaffe in the Battle
of Britain, it became even more obvious a German invasion was futile.
        On 17 September, 1940, Hitler postponed the invasion of Britain
"until further notice".
        Hitler told his naval adjutant, Lt Karl von Puttkamer: "We
conquored France at the cost of 30,000 men. During one night of crossing
the English Channel, we could lose many times that number -- and our
success is not certain."
SEELOWE sank as of that moment.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 13:56:05 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: BARBAROSSA

Hello, Emery!

I would highly recommend the Carrell works, I already mentioned to
you. I will cite a few others for you, even though they may seem
"dated" to you. They are nevertheless valuable from the standpoint of
research.

The German Army by Matthew Cooper
The Russo-German War by Albert Seaton
The Rise and Fall of the Luftwaffe by David Irving
A Genius for War by Col. T. N. Dupuy
Hitler and Stalin by Alan Bullock
German Rule in Russia by Alexander Dallin
Lost Victories by Erich von Manstein
German Strategy Against Russia, 1939-1941 by Barry Leach

There are others but these deal adequately with your topic.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 12:13:08 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INQ: Partisan Warfare Sources

There's an excellent new book just out:
        BEACONS IN THE NIGHT: With The OSS And Tito's Partisans
                In Watime Yugoslavia, by Franklin Lindsay, Stanford U Press.
Really a first-class study of how it was.
        As well, take a look at a classic: EASTERN APPROACHES, by
                Alistair Maclean.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 14:23:29 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Sea Lion (the RN part)

Hello, John!

> Excuse me, but exactly who would be sinking them?

    The Luftwaffe, what surface vessels could be brought to bear and
the submarine fleet, such as it was. Granted, all that would have
taken much much time to bring together, but, given the fact that all
that could have been pulled off, and if the situation had actually
occurred, I don't see how the Brits could have repulsed a determined
attempt, if all the other things had been in place.

 By the time Seelowe
> could be launched (mid to late September 1940 at the earliest), the
> Luftwaffe had suffered a bloody nose and the U-boat fleet was still very
> weak.

    True, but the Germans still possessed a most formidable air force
of approximately 2000 planes of all types, even with the losses
sustained over the British Isles. Regarding the U-Boat fleet, that is
also true, but those boats were staffed with very experienced crews
and commanders who were already battle-tested.

In addition, operating in the narrow waters of the channel or its
> approaches would not be any submariners idea of fun.  The RAF and Fleet
> Air Arm would have been much more capable of covering the fleet (this
> isn't Crete) and inflicting additional losses on the Luftwaffe.

    Perhaps, but they would have been hard put to do it, I think. Had
the thing come to pass, it would have had to be an all-out, all-or-
nothing effort for all concerned, and given the materiel superiority
of the Germans, at the time, the British would have really been
on the razor's edge. Also, given the fact that the invasion would
have taken place in Southern England, from what I have read on this
subject, the endurance of the German fighters, particularly, the Bf-
109's would have been longer thus permitting more to stay
over the battle area longer.

> For comparative strengths, see John Ellis' _Brute Force_.  I suspect the
> British surface and underwater fleets would have emerged bloodied but
> victorious in the event of any ad hoc attempt by the Germans to cross
> the Channel.

  Perhaps and certainly with the technology at hand that existed at
the time, the Germans would have faced a tough time, but I still feel
that, if a determined, and well-thought-out approach to this issue
had been accomplished and had the Germans had the time to get it all
together, I don't think that they could have been stopped. It would
have been one hell of a fight, to say the least.

> A colleague
has asked for sources that outline "Sealion" and the overall
> strategic situation at that time and I would welcome any suggestions.
> Please post to my address below.

    You might secure a copy of a book that came out some years ago,
called "Operation Sea Lion" by James (?) Fleming. Hitler Confronts
England is another one, but the author escapes me. I will get these
to you tomorrow. I have several in my library and will post to you
the names tomorrow.

    I also have in my possession, and have for many years, a partial
set of the various studies made by the Germans at the time, and these
are original, BTW, and organized into different volumes dealing with
different aspects of the proposed invasion of the British Isles. They
are, of course, in German, and all are labeled "Nur fuer den
Dienstgebrauch" "Only for Service Use". These comprise photos of
different parts of the British Isles, particularly those showing
terrain features, maps showing the main roads, railway lines, and
there is even a four-part map of London they prepared for study.

    Mr. Fleming's book is the only source I have seen that refers to
these documents.

    Hope this helps, and will write more tomorrow.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 15:25:12 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: The Balkans

On Tue, 19 Apr 1994 13:49:09 GMT-6 Terry Moore said:
>Soviet Union. Had Hitler stood behind his original timetable of
>invading the SU on 15 May, in all likelihood, the Soviets would have
>bought the farm. Certainly Moscow could have been taken sooner and
>the total collapse of the SU would have been a real possibility.

Umm, except that I thought the weather caused a three week delay in the
start of Barbarossa all by itself, ie, that the Balkan operation delayed
Barbarossa by only 2 weeks.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 12:36:11 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Yugoslavia?

More than a million and a half Yugoslavs were killed after the
German conquest.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 12:39:01 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: weap:WWII nuclear capability

No captured German scientists were involved with the Manhattan Project.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 12:34:31 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re[2]: Night Vision

Anders,

Thanks for that detailed explanation of the red light.  I've read many
accounts of submariners, and they always had only red lights (or red
goggles) on at night (even when submerged) so that if they had to do
surface battle unexpectedly, all eyes would already be adjusted.  I always
knew the reason, but now I know the REASON for the reason!  :-)

Thanks.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
P.O. Box 1420
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 17:33:00 -0230
From:    OLAF <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: POL Lend-Lease

X-News: leif mail.wwii-l:9239

>From: [email-masked] (Ken Trimm)
>Subject:POL Lend-Lease
>Date: 19 Apr 1994 11:17:53 -0230
>Message-ID:<[email-masked]>

>What were the bases that Great Britian used as collateral in the Lend-Lease
>program? Were they returned after the war?

There were no bases used as collateral by Great Britain in the Lend-Lease
program. The destroyers-for-bases deal was worked out between Roosevelt
and Churchill in September 1940. Lend-Lease (the "Aid to Democracies" Bill,
as FDR always preferred to call it) was introduced to Congress early in
January 1941 and signed by the President in March 1941.

The destroyers-for-bases deal was arranged without benefit (or interference
) of Congress. Churchill needed escort vessels to protect shipping in the
North Atlantic from German U-boats. FDR offered the fifty WWI-vintage
destroyers, but wanted something in return in order to avoid the need to
get Congress involved. Churchill offered two things. One was the promise
never to surrender the British fleet to Germany. The other was to lease
six bases in the western Atlantic to the US for 99 years. These bases
were in British Guiana and the Caribbean. Two other bases -- in Bermuda
and in Newfoundland -- were leased for 99 years as well without a quid
pro quo. The deal was acceptable to American isolationists at this time
because FDR could argue (and did) that the bases would contribute to
the security of the United States.

Lend-Lease was a fifferent kind of arrangement entirely. The legislation
allowed the US government to extend credit to Great Britain in the form
of materiel or cash with which to purchase supplies and equipment. The
loans were to be repaid, though most sensed that much of the lent
equipment would never be returned (I believe it was Senator Taft, a
critic of the FDR administration and of Lend-Lease, who likened the
arrangement to lending chewing gum: "you don't ask for it back once
the other guy is finished with it.")

Sorr for the typos ("fifferent" = "different", etc.)

Olaf Janzen
Dept. of History
Corner Brook, Newfoundland

e-mail: [email-masked]

wo '

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 16:34:39 -0400
From:    William Newbold Ely III <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Sea Lion (the RN part)

Hi! I'm Newby Ely from Springfield, Virginia.  I do have devout interest
in World War II.  Can anyone help me in locating English-language
accounts of the Germans' fierce defense of Konigsberg (surrendered April
1945 to Russia) and of Breslau, Silesia ( up to May 6, 1945 one day after
the Berlin surrender)?  I did check up the Library of Congress but no
English-language accounts although there are Polish and German language
accounts.  I feel those battles are among the most neglected battles of
World War II by historians! Thanks!

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 18:21:09 +0100
From:    WH GREENSLADE <[email-masked]>
Subject: Request for obscure stuff

Ok people, who can help me with ANY info on the following. It can be
references(In either English, Serbo Croat, Slovene, Italian, French or
German) to follow up or straight info.

                Brigate Nere (RSI Black Brigades)
                Domobran (NDH (Croat) Home Army)
                Ustasche (NDH (Croat) SS/Police)
                Bella Guarda (Slovene White Guards)
                Black Brigade (Part of the Ustasche)
                Guardia Nazionale Repubblicana (RSI Civil militia)

  I have all of the Osprey books on the subject so save ya time people. I
hope people like challenges.

                                Thanks in advance

                                  Bill Greenslade

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 16:31:36 EDT
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor,
         Marist Coll" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re[2]: Sea Lion (the RN part)

>As Mr Churchill said at the time: "What kind of people do they think we
>are?"
Which brings to mind the story of WSC at the dinner table announcing
that if England was invaded and the Germans came for him he
intended to "take one with him" using a pistol he had obtained
from his police bodyguard. When his daughter in law Pamella
(now Ambassador to France) said "Papa, I couldn't possibly use a gun!"
the old lion took the carving knife from the roast beef, held it
high above his head with the point down and roared "You can use a knife
can't you?" and he plunged the knife into the roast beef which stood in
as an imaginary German. I don't remember where I read this...my Gilbert
bios of WSC are at home. Regards-

Jonah Triebwasser
Adjunct Instructor
Marist College
Dyson Building (Adult Education)
Poughkeepsie, New York12601
Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
E-Mail: [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 14:28:21 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: weap:WWII nuclear capability

>Just out of interest (as is everything on this list I guess), how much of
>a part did captured German scientists play in the Manhatten Project? I
>always remember that line from Dr. Strangelove (I think) "Our Germans
>were better than their Germans" (in reference to the Soviets).
>David Rising

I don't think caputured German scientists played any part in the Manhatten
Project.  I would guess that line above (wherever it came from) was in
reference to the German rocket scientists who worked for the the Americans
and Russians after WWII

John Riegsecker                                 (206) 756-3566
Dept of Math and Computer Science               [email-masked]
University of Puget Sound

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 17:35:38 -0500
From:    Ronald A Wilson <[email-masked]>
Subject: History: 50 Years Ago Today

Text item: Text_1

   The following is posted verbatim from an Air Force Reserve
   Newservice "paperboy" article.
   Ron Wilson   [email-masked]
   Seattle

   ************************************************************
    50 YEARS AGO, BOMB HIT LONDON HOSPITAL

      Fifty years ago Tuesday, Allied bombers pounded military
   and industrial targets in Germany, and the Luftwaffe struck
   back with an air raid on London that severely damaged a
   hospital housing nearly 2,000 patients.
      The Allied air assault continued a campaign against German
   industrial plants involved in manufacturing warplanes. In the
   36 hours preceding sundown April 19, some 6,000 British and
   American bombers dropped about 8,000 tons of bombs on  German
   military targets from northwestern France to the Berlin area.
      Some of the heaviest bombing raids took place in
   northwestern France, with Allied fliers striking at airfields
   and railway yards as part of the coordinated effort to cripple
   the Luftwaffe and disrupt German lines of communication and
   transport in advance of D-Day.
      About 125 German warplanes staged an air raid on London in
   the early morning of April 19, and dropped a number of bombs
   on the city, damaging a large hospital housing some 2,000
   patients.  Three houses and a second building were destroyed
   by other bombs.
      Allied fighters and antiaircraft fire downed 14 of the
   Luftwaffe planes. It was the last air raid in the so-called
   "Little Blitz."
      A prominent American combat flier died April 19. Lt. Col.
   Thomas Hitchcock was killed in a crash in England. Hitchcock
   had been approved for combat flying despite being 44, well
   beyond the age of most fighter pilots.
      Hitchcock had fought in World War I as a member of the
   Lafayette Escadrille after he was denied entry to the U.S.
   Army because he was only 17. He was also a well-known polo
   player in the United States.

   -AFRES Newservice
   **************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 17:45:34 -0400
From:    Walter O'Hara <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: The Balkans

Steve was trolling for good sources for books/articles on the Balkans.

Believe it or not, try COMMAND magazine's issue 23.  There is a great
summary article on the Balkans in WWI.

Also, try A HISTORY OF THE BALKANS, by Ferdinand Schevill (Barnes & Noble) and
THE SERBS: GUARDIANS OF THE GATES, by R. Laffan (also a B&N reprint).

Walt
[email-masked]
[email-masked]
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 16:14:51 -0500
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: The Balkans

Terry,

     Ken knows my point.  The weather would have been terrible in
any case.  What's more, if Hitler had allowed Yugoslavia and
Greece to do their thing, the British could have inflicted another
Balkan abcess on the Germans, as they did in WWI.

     Had the British been left to clear North Africa, they could
have significantly reinforced the Greeks (and Yugoslavs), perhaps
threatening Rumania and the oilfields.  Hitler HAD to act ...
quickly.

     True, another 2 weeks of good weather MIGHT have gotten
Moscow, unless significant ground and air forces would have been
diverted.

Lou

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 18:21:23 EDT
From:    Robert E George <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: weap:WWII nuclear capability

> Just out of interest (as is everything on this list I guess), how much of
> a part did captured German scientists play in the Manhatten Project? I
> always remember that line from Dr. Strangelove (I think) "Our Germans
> were better than their Germans" (in reference to the Soviets).
> David Rising
>

     Refugees from Nazi-dominated Europe (e.g., Fermi and Einstein,
plus a number of others) played a considerable role in developing the
atomic bomb in the Manhattan Project - era. Also, some German rocket
scientists (e.g., von Braun) played a major in the U.S. missile/space
program. I doubt that the German scientists captured at the end of
the European war made any direct contribution to the Manhattan Project.
Captured in May or April, a German scientist would not have had much
time to make a contribution.

Rob

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 15:37:09 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Yugoslavia?

I read a summary some years ago, called:
                SOVIET PARTISANS IN THE SECOND WORLD WAR, author's
name was John (?) Armstrong. It was an American published book, so
you should be able to find it there.
Regards from Canada.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 15:41:08 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INQ: Partisan Warfare Sources

Re my previous...
EASTERN APPROACHES was written by *Fitzroy* Maclean, of course (not
'Alistair'....fickle fingers... :-)

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Apr 1994 22:42:25 EDT
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: D-Day

My father was D-Day at Normandy H+6, a member of the Third Medical Auxiliary
of the First Army.  His team leader and lifelong friend was Reynold Church.
Wren had a son my age (54).  I'm interested in learning more about this
aspect of the war and contacting Wren and others.  I would like to visit
Omaha Beach someday.

John McClintock, Chicago, formerly of Albany, New York

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 18 Apr 1994 to 19 Apr 1994
*************************************************