Subject: WWII-L Digest - 16 Apr 1994 to 17 Apr 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 18 Apr 1994 00:00:14 -0400

There are 19 messages totalling 598 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. BARBAROSSA (3)
  2. WWII specific list
  3. Van Nuys Stopover - Doolittle
  4. WW II Usenet Newsgroup
  5. Brandenburgers (4)
  6. TAC: Patton's phantom army (3)
  7. NOST: 50 years ago this week
  8. TAC: RE: Kasserine
  9. Re[2]: Russian front, end of war...? (2)
 10. Henning von Treschkow
 11. MEDIA: NBC's "When Lions Roared"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 17 Apr 1994 00:16:01 -0400
From:    Emery Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: BARBAROSSA

I was wondering if anyone out there might know where I can find a good
book on the Russo-German conflict.  I've read BARBAROSSA by Alan Clark,
I just found and bought a book called THE RUSSO=GERMAN WAR 1941-1945 by
Albert Seaton.  But both of these books were written before 1975.  Is
there anything more current?  I've read that Dmitrii Volkogonov released
an authoritative account of a Soviet version of that was very controversial
at the time it was released, ostensibly because it was close to the facts and
commissioned by the Communist Party in Gorbachev's final years.  I think
it was called something like THE OFFICIAL HISTORY OF THE SOVIET ARMED FORCES.
Has that ever been translated in English?  Even if it hasn't, I'm a novice
Russian linguist, where can I get a copy?
        Thanks,
                --H. E. Ford

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 17 Apr 1994 00:01:29 +22311624
From:    Monte Turner <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WWII specific list

On Sat, 16 Apr 1994, Vincent J. Tedesco III wrote:

> Does anyone know if there Is a list out there that only deals with the Second
> World War?  This list is to diverse and busy to follow through commercial
> access.

Absolutely.  [email-masked] is an outstanding list.  Be
forewarned, however, that when I finally dropped my subsciption to wwii-l
I was recieving sometimes 50+ messages a day.  I loved the list but was
unable to spend that much time on it.  You might want to check about
ubvm's "digest" mode.  Good Luck.

Monte Turner

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 17 Apr 1994 03:05:56 EDT
From:    John Sloan <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: BARBAROSSA

HI there,  Dmitri Volkogonov's book was to be the first volume of a new
multivolume history of the Great Patriotic War. It only was the opening part
but was denounced by the top generals and was withdrawn. As far as Iknow it
has not been published so far. For the opening phase of the war Bryan
Fugate's book on Operation Barbarossa is the best.  There are quite a few
books out now by David Glantz covering specific operations or phases. The two
books by John Erickson are good and Earl Ziemke's book on Stalingrad to
Berlin covers the last half ofthe war. Glanz wrote two books published by the
Army on the campaign in Manchuria. james Jucas has a book called War on the
eastern Front, that is s study of the German soldiers. Harold Shukman
published _Stalin's Generals_. Christopher Duffy has a book on the final
phase called _Red Storm on the Reich_. Michael Parrish edited a Soveit report
that has become available - _Battle for Moscow: soviet General Staff Study_.
And Louis Rotundo did the same for a similar report called _Battle for
Stalingrad. Paul Carell's _Hitler Moves East_ is a popularized version seen
from the German view point. YOu can read Zhukov's views in _From Moscow to
Berlin: Marshal Zhukov's Greatest Battles_. Avery publishes a commercial
version of the West Point military history atlases and one of them includes
good maps of the campaigns on the Russo-German front
Hope that will keep you busy for a while
John Sloan

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 17 Apr 1994 02:29:31 -0500
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Van Nuys Stopover - Doolittle

My first attempt apparently failed, but in either case, I personally think
this is appropriate for the list, but as I mentioned in that other copy,
after 2:00 a.m., I just don't think.  :-)

CNN also seems to be covering this event.  They had some footage on Headline
News, but I haven't yet seen it.  :-(

In message <Pine.3.85.9404161537.A2638-0100000@netcom2> Mark Stanford writes:
> Hello Robert;
>
> As promised here is my report on the festivities that occured today at
> Van Nuys. And what a day it was!
>
> There were a total of 6 b-25's and one F4U. A P51 was there earlier in
> the day, but I missed it. The crowd was probably 4 - 5000 at the peak and
> maybe 3000 at the time of take off.
>
> The planes were parked 2 abreast on the tarmac and all were looking good!
> But I will have to say that the "Miss Mitchell" was the cleanest and best
> restored plane there. I was very impressed with her. You could eat off of
> any surface on the plane, it was that nice. Got to look  inside the plane
> also, but did not get to sit in the cockpit. I was in line to do so, but
> they had to start loading about 1330 and just got to look in.
>
> Met Ray Ostlie, Jerry Dick and Robbie. They all said to say hello and
> Robbie said that they were enjoying the fine weather so much, they were
> going to stay longer! Bought a couple of shirts and a hat, so I guess I
> own a piece of the plane now :-). Ray said to tell you that all was going
> well.
>
> They finally started the engines about 1410 and the roar from 12 Wright
> Cyclone engines is something to be remembered to be sure! Miss Mitchell
> got in the air at 1426 and was the last to take off. They took off
> heading south  and had to bank to the west and the sun shining on the
> wings when they banked was a sight.
>
> The crowd was a bit disappointed that they did not do a fly over, but all
> went away satisfied.

I'm sure this either had to do with safety or logistics.  Having been
involved in some formation work (as a passenger), it can take a long time,
up to a half hour, to set up a large formation.  Six B-25s and miscellaneous
other planes need a lot of space and time to form up (especially in a
civilian setting when you're under the control of ATC and have to deal with
all that other equal priority stuff n the air...)

>
> By the way, before the crews departed, the ROTC Honor Guard from Manual
> Arts High School, (Doolittle's old school,) presented the color guard and
> an Army Chaplin said a prayer for the crews.

Excellent.

>
> All in all a touching and exciting day. Lots of vets there. As a matter
> of fact, when the Corsair took off, the guy standing next to me used to
> fly them in the Pacific Theater. He had a couple of stories to tell.

Oral History time.  The CAF has about 1,500 taped interviews on file and
thousands more are needed... Would be great to record everyone's history
who were around during those years...

>
> Thanks for letting the list know about the affair. I did not post this to
> the list, but if you think appropriate, be my guest to go ahead and do so.
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Mark C. Stanford
> Anaheim, California
> [email-masked]
> [email-masked]
>
> "There ain't no Coupe DeVille lying in the Bottom of
>  a Cracker Jack Box" - Jim Steinman
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

--
Robert J. Granvin                                             [email-masked]
University of Minnesota, School of Statistics
         "I'm my father?  I'm my mother?  I'm chipped beef on toast?"

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 17 Apr 1994 09:05:49 -0500
From:    John Davis - Mailing Lists <[email-masked]>
Subject: WW II Usenet Newsgroup

For those that haven't heard - the WW II Usenet newsgroup passed it's vote.
It will be newgrouped sometime toward the middle of next week. This will be
a moderated newsgroup (mainly to exclude the holocaust revisionists).

----------
John Davis ([email-masked])
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 17 Apr 1994 09:03:07 -0700
From:    Jim Benn <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Brandenburgers

>
>     Yes. But that came later. The Brandenburgers went on to be
> constituted as a division which became the sister division to the GD.
> A Colonel Hippel established this unit that operated under the
> auspices of the Abwehr, or German Intelligence. Alexander von
> Pfuhlstein later became the CO of the division.
>
>
I remember reading that while under command of the Abwehr, the
Brandenburg unit had many anti-Nazi troops transfered to it in order to
serve as unit in support of any potential coup.  I recall something about
plans for them to attack Hitler's HQ in Poland.  Can't remember where I
got this from.  Any truth in this?  It's widely known that the Abwehr and
Canaris were deep into anti-Hitler plotting, but I'd like to hear what
anyone may know about involvement of the Brandenburgers.   Thanks.

 *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*> Jim Benn  [[email-masked]] <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=*
 |-=[        Auto-Graphics, Inc.       ]=[      /~~)       /~~)           ]=-|
 |-=[        8 West Main Street        ]=[     (__(_UTO - (__/RAPHICS     ]=-|
 |-=[        Niantic, CT  06357        ]=[              .___/             ]=-|
 *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*>  PHONE: 800-733-6939 = FAX: 203-691-0183  <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=*

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 17 Apr 1994 16:39:33 +0000
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Brandenburgers

>
> >
> >     Yes. But that came later. The Brandenburgers went on to be
> > constituted as a division which became the sister division to the GD.
> > A Colonel Hippel established this unit that operated under the
> > auspices of the Abwehr, or German Intelligence. Alexander von
> > Pfuhlstein later became the CO of the division.
> >
> >
> I remember reading that while under command of the Abwehr, the
> Brandenburg unit had many anti-Nazi troops transfered to it in order to
> serve as unit in support of any potential coup.  I recall something about
> plans for them to attack Hitler's HQ in Poland.  Can't remember where I
> got this from.  Any truth in this?  It's widely known that the Abwehr and
> Canaris were deep into anti-Hitler plotting, but I'd like to hear what
> anyone may know about involvement of the Brandenburgers.   Thanks.
>
        Didnt Treschow offer to send his troops to attack the Lions
Lair? I seem to remember so but they cancelled that attack due to the
position of that Division of his (near Dnjepr perhaps?). What division
did Treschow command at that time?

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 17 Apr 1994 18:53:26 MET-1
From:    Bognar Attila <[email-masked]>
Subject: TAC: Patton's phantom army

In a message somebody wrote that one of the reasons for Hitler
anticipating the landing in the Pas de Calais was the phantom army
that Patton had. Was that not General McNair who had the phantom army
in the decisive project?

All the best,

Attila  [email-masked]

An aspect of East European existence: "How far to go which way when
we want to see where the wind sits?"

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 17 Apr 1994 13:25:26 EDT
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor,
         Marist Coll" <[email-masked]>
Subject: NOST: 50 years ago this week

I have obtained two calendars, one from the International Churchill
Society and one from the US Department of Defense which highlights
some of the events of WWII. As time permits, I will post some of
these events:

Fifty Years ago this week:
Sources: (c) = Churchill society; (d) = Defense Dept.

17 April - Churchill vetoes Monty's day of prayer (c)
20 April - Venice bombed (c).
21 April - Churchill's speech to the House (on the state of the
British Empire) is called a "masterpiece and gem" (c).
22 April - Allies land in New Guinea (c). US forces land in
Hollandia area, New Guinea (d).

In the US, set you video tape recorders for a two day film
called "WWII: When Lions Roared" with John Lithgow as FDR,
Michael Caine as Stalin and Bob Hoskins as Churchill. This is
being shown on the NBC network Tuesday and Wednesday. Times vary.
It will be interesting to see how these performances stack up to
Ralph Bellamy's FDR, Robert Hardy's Churchill and Jose Ferrer's Stalin!
Regards to all-

Jonah Triebwasser
Adjunct Instructor
Marist College
Dyson Building (Adult Education)
Poughkeepsie, New York12601
Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
E-Mail: [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 17 Apr 1994 12:36:03 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TAC: Patton's phantom army

Hello, Attila!

> In a message somebody wrote that one of the reasons for Hitler
> anticipating the landing in the Pas de Calais was the phantom army
> that Patton had. Was that not General McNair who had the phantom army
> in the decisive project?

    To my knowledge it was General Patton who headed that "phantom
army". Although General Leslie McNair was known to the Germans, he
was unknown to the British and American publics at large, whereas
Patton's name had been and was on everyone's lips at that time. He
was the perfect choice to head such a "phantom army", since he was
the one Allied general who was feared most by the Germans, and most
certainly to attract their attention.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 17 Apr 1994 12:39:02 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TAC: RE: Kasserine

Hello, Attila!

Thanks for the post about the BOB. There are some points you make
here that I want to take issue with you, and will do so at a later
time. I don't agree with you that Ike's plan was at fault. At the
time of the Bulge, the Allies had basically shot their wad and were
in bad need of regrouping before the final push.

    More later.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 17 Apr 1994 12:43:56 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: BARBAROSSA

Hello, Emery!

Maybe I can help.

> I was wondering if anyone out there might know where I can find a good
> book on the Russo-German conflict.  I've read BARBAROSSA by Alan Clark,
> I just found and bought a book called THE RUSSO=GERMAN WAR 1941-1945 by
> Albert Seaton.  But both of these books were written before 1975.  Is
> there anything more current?  I've read that Dmitrii Volkogonov released
> an authoritative account of a Soviet version of that was very controversial
> at the time it was released, ostensibly because it was close to the facts and
> commissioned by the Communist Party in Gorbachev's final years.  I think
> it was called something like THE OFFICIAL HISTORY OF THE SOVIET ARMED FORCES.
> Has that ever been translated in English?  Even if it hasn't, I'm a novice
> Russian linguist, where can I get a copy?

    I would highly recommend you get a copy of "Hitler Moves East,
1941-1943 by Paul Carell, the sequel "Scorched Earth" for starters.
These two excellent books really get to the point and to the nitty-
gritty of the conflict. There are others and I will get a reading
list ready for you.

    More later.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 17 Apr 1994 12:45:34 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Brandenburgers

Hello, Gudmundur!

Do you mean Henning von Treschkow? Please advise, or are you thinking
of someone else? If so, can you supply his full name?

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 17 Apr 1994 12:50:25 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Brandenburgers

Hello, Jim!

> I remember reading that while under command of the Abwehr, the
> Brandenburg unit had many anti-Nazi troops transfered to it in order to
> serve as unit in support of any potential coup.  I recall something about
> plans for them to attack Hitler's HQ in Poland.  Can't remember where I
> got this from.  Any truth in this?  It's widely known that the Abwehr and
> Canaris were deep into anti-Hitler plotting, but I'd like to hear what
> anyone may know about involvement of the Brandenburgers.   Thanks.

    I hadn't heard of that, and would doubt that. The Brandenburgers
were used as commando, behind the lines recon, and intelligence-
gathering forces.

    True, Canaris was deeply involved in the plot to kill Hitler, but
I have never run across anything that would suggest that this unit
was intimately involved in the plot to kill Hitler.

    I don't have immediate access to my sources on this, but by the
time this outfit became a division, control of this unit was removed
from the Abwehr.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 17 Apr 1994 13:04:14 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Russian front, end of war...?

Hello, Scott!

>      Wasn't the sole reason for Hitler's thinking of the invasion forces
>      hitting Pas de Calais simply because it was the shortest straight line
>      distance from the coasts of England and France? (I understand the
>      Allies had a few exercises or "attention getters" in that area to add
>      credibility to Hitler's beliefs.)

    Not originally, but with Allied help, he began to think that way.

>      As an additional question, why were the beaches of Normandy chosen as
>      the point of attack? Why not closer to Berlin or Paris? To what extent
>      did supplies logistics play into this decision? What was Spain doing
>      at this time?

    The beaches at Normandy were found to be more suitable for the
kind of invasion foreseen by the Allied planners, particulary by
General Sir Frederick Morgan. Although the tides there were more
unpredictable, the area lended itself to better access to the
continent, allowed military buildup, which was absolutely necessary
to a much larger push later on, and was found to be much more weakly
defended than the Pas de Calais area.

    Spain was neutral. Your question about choice of a more suitable
landing area closer to Berlin or Paris was considered. The thought
would be to go in at Antwerp, but this was scotched because of the
lengthier supply route and the greater possibility that those
supplies would be disrupted.

    Supplies and logistics were everything to ensure success and
bring about a successful end to an operation that was certain to cost
many casualties. This was also a factor in the consideration of
Normandy as an invasion area.

    One more thing. It was also mandatory for the Allies to gain
access to a port that would facilitate the buildup process before
breakout. That port was Cherbourg. It was within in relatively easy
striking distance from the Normandy beachhead, and stood the chance of
being captured with minimal damage, whereas Antwerp would have most
certainly been totally destroyed in the liberation process,
necessitating expensive and time-consuming repairs which would thus
throw off the Allied timetable.

    Normandy, itself, presented far more positives than negatives, to
say the least.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 17 Apr 1994 14:47:48 -0500
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: TAC: Patton's phantom army

On Sun, 17 Apr 1994, Bognar Attila wrote:

> In a message somebody wrote that one of the reasons for Hitler
> anticipating the landing in the Pas de Calais was the phantom army
> that Patton had. Was that not General McNair who had the phantom army
> in the decisive project?
>
It was indeed Patton who was placed in charge of the phantom army based
in Dover.  The army was composed of a few thousand simulating the
movements of over a million men.  This army's supplies, like trucks,
tanks, and planes, were made of heavy-duty rubber and assembled by a film
company specifically for the ruse.
There were constant "leaks" of official information about the invasion
that was to take place at Calais.  One night as he left a dinner party,
Patton waved to a friend and yelled, "See you in Calais!"  Another
incident involved the discovery of women on an army transport and the
radio man said to another, "What are we suppose to do with them, take
them to Calais?"  All of these incidents were part of the entire plan.
While the Germans concentrated on Patton, Ike was busy preparing for the
actual invasion plans for Normandy.

C.K. Bryant
[email-masked]
*******************************************************************
"The Riskier the road, the greater the profit."    / C.K. Bryant
        The 62nd Rule of Acquisition               / W.I.U. English
*******************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 17 Apr 1994 20:04:18 +0000
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <[email-masked]>
Subject: Henning von Treschkow

Yes, I mean Henning von Treschkow I think, he was heavily involved into
various plots against Hitler and sommitted suicide in 44 by walking out
of his Eastern Front HQ into Russian gunfire.

I think I saw somewhere that he offered his owb division to attack
Hitlers HQ in Prussia but it was cancelled as it would be inpossible to
move the div from it's location towards some fake location near Hitler
without waking up the RSHA.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 17 Apr 1994 19:12:20 -0400
From:    Joe Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA: NBC's "When Lions Roared"

Jonah Triebwasser writes:
> In the US, set you video tape recorders for a two day film
> called "WWII: When Lions Roared" with John Lithgow as FDR,
> Michael Caine as Stalin and Bob Hoskins as Churchill. This is
> being shown on the NBC network Tuesday and Wednesday. Times vary.
> It will be interesting to see how these performances stack up to
> Ralph Bellamy's FDR, Robert Hardy's Churchill and Jose Ferrer's Stalin!

        Apparently, the producers are so sure that their work will be
memorable that the series was filmed for high definition television.
As the name implies, HDTV offers greater detail using 1125 scan lines
compared to the convention 525 scan lines.  HDTV isn't even available
in the US but the producers assume that it will be in a decade or so
and they want this series to be compatible when it is available.  This
Tuesday, though, "When Lions Roared" will have the same clarity as any
other US program.
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
We are holding ourselves in reserve in case the Krauts mount a
counteroffensive that threatens Paris or, uh, New York.  Then we
can move in and stop them.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 17 Apr 1994 19:22:45 -0400
From:    Joe Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Russian front, end of war...?

Terry Moore writes:
>     The beaches at Normandy were found to be more suitable for the
> kind of invasion foreseen by the Allied planners, particulary by
> General Sir Frederick Morgan. Although the tides there were more
> unpredictable, the area lended itself to better access to the
> continent, allowed military buildup, which was absolutely necessary
> to a much larger push later on, and was found to be much more weakly
> defended than the Pas de Calais area.

        The one thing to which the Allied planners apparently gave little
thought was the bocage country of Normandy.  Tactics had to be learned "on
the job" to dislodge stiff German resistance that exploited these "natural"
(actually constructed by farmers) defensive positions.  Because of the
heavy canopies of foliage, visibility was very limited, which negated the
Allies' advantages of superior fire power and air superiority.  The Allies
were forced into deadly, frontal assaults.  As soon as one position became
untenable, the Germans simply fell back to the next.
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
Look, when we was in the bocage country, we was assaulted by them Tigers!
You know what I mean by assaulted, hunh?!  Well, I mean assaulted!!

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 16 Apr 1994 to 17 Apr 1994
*************************************************