Subject: WWII-L Digest - 10 Apr 1994 to 11 Apr 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 1994 00:01:08 -0400

There are 34 messages totalling 1434 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Memphis Belle (6)
  2. INF: USAAF 11 APR 44
  3. Yamato: Obituary (2)
  4. RCAF No. 424 Squadron
  5. HELP(IMHO...) (3)
  6. Pacific-inferior equipment?
  7. Hs-293
  8. GEN: BGen R.L. Scott, Jr (part 2)
  9. GEN: Lt Michael's Medal of Honor
 10. ADMIN: Intro to WWII-L (2)
 11. Roger Waters: When the Tigers Broke Free (3)
 12. A-4 (2)
 13. SPECULATION: No WWII for USA without Pearl Harbor? (3)
 14. Weap: Triumph of the Will (2)
 15. obsolete equipment
 16. "German soldier from 1936-49" ??
 17. Yamato : Obituary
 18. SPECULATION: US offensive to Moskva after 5.45?
 19. DDAY, NORMANDY OPERATION OVERLORD.....

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 02:15:18 -0500
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Memphis Belle

In message World War II Discussion List writes:
> >Date: Sun, 10 Apr 1994 22:01:17 -0500
> >From: Hans Werner <[email-masked]>
> >
> >A quick question which I am sure can be answered easily by the expert
> >knowledge represented on the list. My son and I just watched the movie
> >'Memphis Belle' and he is also building a model of the airplane. The movie
> >airplane has waist gunners and the Revell model apparently does not. Which
> >is correct?
> >
> >Hans
>
> Hans:
>      Last I knew, all B-17's had 2 waist guns.  The 'Belle' certainly did.
> Strange that a model wouldn't include them.

Indeed.  All B-17s had waist gun positions.

The first production B-17 (the B model) introduced them.  (The A model
was essentially the prototype which never saw production).

While the configuration of the waist gun positions changed throughout the
B through G life cycle of the aircraft, the gun positions were always
there.  (Early models had actual gun blisters.  These were quickly removed
and replaced with the more favored and simple "open window" design.  The
locations of these gun windows moved from time to time in model changes,
but no model ever shipped without those positions.

Are you sure they really aren't there?  An inaccurate model may have the
window scored into the fuselage, but not "cut out."  They are quite
non-descript when viewed from the outside at a distance (or on a model).

Any model of a production B-17 without waist guns is completely inaccurate
unless it was modeling the photo-recon version (F-9, I believe).  These
special purpose aircraft did not have armament, and the turrets and gun
positions would have been deleted and covered over.

--
Robert J. Granvin                                             [email-masked]
University of Minnesota, School of Statistics
         "I'm my father?  I'm my mother?  I'm chipped beef on toast?"

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 07:13:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USAAF 11 APR 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
TUESDAY, 11 APRIL 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
Ventura, Lockheed

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): Of 3 B-24s attempting to fly a photographic
and bombing run over Matsuwa Island installations, 2 must turn back; the
third bombs the runway area.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 17 P-51s and B-25s fly ground
support missions and bomb a road near Maungkan; Mogaung Valley targets are
pounded by 50+ fighter-bombers and 2 B-25s; targets include HQ and stores at
Sahmaw, HQ and ammunition dump SW of Mogaung, troops at Myitkyina, and
targets of opportunity to the S, a gun position S of Kamaing, and HQ at
Waingmaw.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In French Indochina, 3 B-25s hit railroad
targets of opportunity N of Vinh and seriously damage a bridge S of Thanh
Hoa.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (XX Bomber Command): Units arriving in India from the
US: HQ 444th Bombardment Group (Very Heavy) and 676th Bombardment Squadron
(Very Heavy) at Charra with B-29s (first mission is 5 Jun); and 25th
Bombardment Squadron (Very Heavy), 40th Bombardment Group (Very Heavy), at
Chakulia with B-29s (first mission is 5 Jun).

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 298: 917 bombers and 819
fighters are dispatched in 3 separate forces to bomb production centers
(primarily fighter aircraft factories) and targets of opportunity in N
Germany; 64 bombers are lost, one of the heaviest single-day losses of World
War II. The bombers also drop 2.4 million leaflets. Details are:
  1. 341 B-17s are dispatched to hit aviation industry targets at Sorau (108
bomb) and Cottbus (17 bomb); 127 hit Stettin, 20 hit Trechel, 16 hit
Dobberphel and 23 hit targets of opportunity; they claim 12-2-3 Luftwaffe
aircraft; 19 B-17s are lost, 3 damaged beyond repair and 190 damaged;
casualties are 12 KIA, 13 WIA and 200 MIA.
  2. Of 302 B-17s dispatched, 172 hit Rostock, 52 hit Politz, 35 hit the
industrial area at Arnimswalde and 15 hit targets of opportunity; they claim
34-20-19 Luftwaffe aircraft; 33 B-17s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and
153 damaged; casualties are 2 KIA, 9 WIA and 330 MIA.
  3. 274 B-24s are dispatched to hit aviation industry targets at
Oschersleben (121 bomb) and Berenburg (99 bomb); 9 bomb aviation industry
targets at Halberstadt, 9 bomb Eisleben and 5 hit targets of opportunity;
they claim 27-2-1 Luftwaffe aircraft; 12 B-24s are lost, 1 damaged beyond
repair and 63 damaged; casualties are 5 KIA, 9 WIA and 122 MIA.
  Escort is provided by 124 P-38s, 454 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s and
241 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-51s; the fighters claim 51-5-25 Luftwaffe
aircraft in the air and 65-0-67 on the grounds. Details are:
  1. P-38s: no losses.
  2. P-47s: 7 are lost and 16 damaged; 7 pilots are MIA.
  3. P-51s: 9 are lost and 13 damaged; 9 pilots are MIA.
  Mission 299: 5 of 5 B-17s drop 2 million leaflets on Paris, Rouen, Le Mans,
Rennes, Vichy, Lyon, Limoges and Toulouse between 2301 and 0055 hours local
without loss.
  12 B-24s are dispatched on CARPETBAGGER operations.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In Belgium, 229 B-26s and 36 A-20s,
including 3 dropping Window, attack Charleroi/Montignies, military
installations on the coast, and Chievres Airfield. 90+ P-47s dive-bomb
a military installation and Gael Airfield, France.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s hit the Montalto
di Castro railroad bridge, while B-26s hit marshalling yards at Ancona and
Siena; fighter-bombers concentrate on attacks against railroad targets NE of
Rome and buildings inland from the E coast; tracks are hit hard in the
Arezzo-Pontassieve area as are stations at Maccarese and Cesano; an overpass,
bridges, railroad cars and dumps throughout C Italy are attacked, as is the
town of Gaeta.
  488th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 340th Bombardment Group (Medium),
moves from Gaudo Airfield, Italy to Alesan, Corsica with B-25s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-25s from the Gilbert Islands
hit Ponape Island, rearm at Majuro Atoll, and carry out a shuttle mission
against Jaluit and Maloelap Atolls.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): Thirteenth Air Task Force
(Provisional) is created by General George C Kenney, Commanding General
Allied Air Force (Southwest Pacific Area), from elements of the Thirteenth
Air Force and other units.
  On New Britain Island, about 40 fighter-bombers hit the E section of Rabaul
while 12 others strike Talili Bay ammunition dump; 24 B-25s blast supply
areas at Ratawul. On Bougainville Island, 20+ fighter-bombers are dispatched
against coastal gun positions but fail to locate their objective; 12 of the
fighter-bombers bomb Aitara while 2 claim destruction of a bridge near
Mawareka.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 80+ A-20s and
B-25s, supported by 30 P-47s and P-40s, blast AA positions, stores, dumps and
personnel areas at Hollandia; 50+ B-24s bomb barges, AA guns, and other
targets along Hansa Bay which is also hit by 12 B-25s. 12 other B-25s bomb
targets on Karkar Island.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 12:26:53 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Yamato: Obituary

Browsing (as I do), the obituaries in the Daily Telegraph (April 9th 94)
I came across the announcement of the death of one
Kenneth Huntington of Santa Cruz, CA aged 72. The obituary says that
as a bomber pilot, he sank the Yamato with a single bomb.

Is this a spectacular feat of arms, or has the obituary writer omitted
to mention the countless other torpedoes and bombs that (as I have read)
hit the Yamato before she sank?

Steve Baldwin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 07:24:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: RCAF No. 424 Squadron

Last week, Alan Hepburn asked for some "biographical" information about his
father's old RCAF unit, No. 424 Squadron.  This is what I found.

No. 424 (Bomber) Squadron, Royal Canadian Air Force, was formed at
Topcliffe, Yorkshire, England on 15 Oct 42, the 23d RCAF squadron, and
sixth bomber squadron, formed overseas.  The squadron, nicknamed "Tiger",
was assigned to RAF No. 4 Group, RAF Bomber Command.  Wing Commander
(USAF Lieutenant Colonel) H.M. Carscallen took command of the squadron on
20 Oct 42; Carscallen had a long and distinguished career in the RCAF
retiring in Aug 63 as an Air Vice Marshall (USAF Major General).  The
squadron began equipping with Vickers Wellington B. Mk. III aircraft,
with the unit code QB, in Oct and embarked on an intensive training
regime.

On 1 Jan 43, No. 6 (RCAF) Group was activated to assume command of six
RCAF bomber squadrons at four stations in England, i.e., Croft, Dalton
and Dishforth, Yorkshire and Middleton St. George, Durham.  Two other
bases in Yorkshire were added on the next two days, Leeming on 2 Jan and
Topcliffe (with No. 424 Squadron) on 3 Jan.  No. 6 (RCAF) Group,
reporting directly to RAF Bomber Command, would eventually command all
RCAF bomber squadrons in Bomber Command.

On the evening of 15/16 Jan 43, five Wellington B. Mk III's of No. 424
Squadron flew the squadron's first mission of the war against Lorient,
France.  In February, the squadron started converting to Vickers
Wellington B. Mk. X's and the Mk. III aircraft were gone by Apr 43.  Also
in Apr 43, Wing Commander G.A. Roy, DFC succeeded Wing Commander H.M.
Carscallen as Officer Commanding.

In the Spring of 1943, the Allies were planning the invasion of Sicily
and Italy.  As part of these plans, three RCAF bomber squadrons, Nos.
420, 424 and 425 with Wellington B. Mk. X's, were detached from No. 6
(RCAF) Group and assigned to the RCAF's No. 331 (Medium Bomber) Wing
which had been formed to control these squadrons.  The 424th flew their
last night mission on 16 Apr 43 and then made preparations for transfer to
North Africa.  The ground crew departed England 16-27 May 43 and established
HQ at Kairouan/Pavillier, Tunisia on 23 Jun 43; the aircraft departed England
on 5-7 Jun.  The squadron flew their first mission on the night of 26/27
Jun 43 when ten Wellington B. Mk. IIIs bombed Sciacca, Sicily, the HQ of
the Italian Air Force's 150th Wing.  During their stay in the Mediterranean,
these three RCAF squadrons took part in the softening up of Sicily and Italy
for the invasions.  The squadrons sent out bombers almost nightly to bomb
airfields, harbors, freight yards and rail junctions and they became known
for their ability, even under cover of darkness, to hamper enemy road
movements in areas adjacent to the beachhead.  On 30 Sep, the squadron moved
to Hani East Landing Ground, Tunisia; on 3 Oct 43, Wing Commander J.P.
McCarthy relieved Wing Commander Roy as Officer Commanding; and the squadron
flew their last mission  in the Mediterranean 5 Oct 43.  When their tour was
over, the three  squadrons handed their Wellingtons over to RAF units and
departed for England.   No. 426 Squadron left Hani East LG on 26 Oct.

The squadron returned to Skipton-on Swale, Yorkshire, England on 6 Nov 43
and was assigned to No. 63 (Operational) Base, No. 6 (RCAF) Group; No. 63
Base controlled RCAF stations Leeming and Skipton-on-Swale, Yorkshire.  The
squadron began equipping with Handley Page Halifax B. Mk. III and after a
training period, resumed operational missions on 18 Feb 44.  Wing
Commander A.N. Martin relieved Wing Commander McCarthy as Officer Commanding
on 18 Dec 43; he was killed in action on 21 Jan 44 and was replaced as
Officer Commanding the next day by Wing Commander J.D. Blane; Blane was
killed on 28 Jul 44 and replaced by Wing Commander G.A. Roy, DFC; Roy was
shot down and became a POW on 9 Oct 44 and was replaced by Wing Commander
C.C.W. Marshall.  In Jan 45, the Halifax B. Mk. IIIs were replaced by Avro
B. Mk I and IIIs and Flight Lieutenant (USAF Captain) J.F. Thomas and crew
flew the squadron's 2,000th four-engine sortie on 21 Mar 45.  Wing Commander
R.W. Norris replaced Wing Commander Marshall as Officer Commanding on 27 Mar
45 and saw the squadron flew it's last mission on 25 Apr 45.  On that day, 10
Lancaster B. Mk. I and IIIs were dispatched to bomb gun positions on
Wangerooge Island, Germany; 9 bombed the primary and the tenth dropped its
bombs 3 miles (4.8 km) from the target when the pilot was hit the eye by a
splinter.

After the war, the squadron remained in England as part of RAF Bomber
Command's strike force and began flying liberated POWs from the Continent
to Europe.  The RCAF's No. 63 (Operational) Base was disbanded on 31 Aug
45 and No. 424 Squadron was reassigned to the RAF's No. 1 Group, RAF
Bomber Command.  Wing Commander R.D.P. Blagrave replaced Wing Commander
Norris as Officer Commanding on 1 Oct 45 and he oversaw the disbandment of
the squadron on 15 Oct 45.

The squadron statistics for World War II are:

1. Sorties: 3,257 including 668 from North Africa and 39 airlifting 884
   ex-POW's from Europe to England.
2. Operational flying hours: 17,478.
3. Non-operational flying hours: 7,106
4. Bomb tonnage dropped: 8,776 tons
5. Victories: 9 aircraft destroyed and 5 damaged in 60 engagements.
6. Operational casualties: 52 aircraft (including 12 in the
   Mediterranean), 37 KIA, 252 MIA, 14 POW and 10 injured.
7. Non-operational casualties: 4 aircraft; 9 KIA and 5 injured.
8. Decorations: 1 Companion of the Distinguished Service Order (DSO), 1
   bar to Distinguished Flying Cross (DFC), 49 DFC's, 1 Conspicuous
   Gallantry Medal (CGM), 11 Distinguished Flying Medals (DFM's) and 1
   Mentioned in Despatches (MiD).
9. Battle Honors: English Channel and North Sea 1943-1945; Baltic 1944-
   1945; Fortress Europe 1943-1944; France and Germany 1944-1945: Biscay
   Ports 1943-1944, Ruhr 1943-1945, Berlin 1944, German Ports 1943-1945,
   Normandy 1944 and Rhine; Biscay 1943-1944; Sicily 1943; Italy 1943:
   Salerno.

The squadron was reformed as No. 424 (Light Bomber) Squadron (Auxiliary)
without aircraft at Mount Hope Airport, Hamilton, Ontario on 15 Apr 46
assigned to No. 1 Air Command; the squadron nickname was "Hamilton Tigers."
Wing Commander D.H. Wigle was named Officer Commanding on 1 May 46.   The
squadron was reassigned to the Central Air Command on 1 Mar 47 and, still
without aircraft, was redesignated No. 424 (Fighter) Squadron (Auxiliary) on
1 Apr 47.  The first aircraft, a North American Harvard Mk. II with Unit Code
BA, was received in Nov 47 and the squadron would operate this type aircraft
for the next eleven years.  Wing Commander Wigle retired on 31 Aug 48 and
Wing Commander D.B. Annan, DFC, AFC, CD was named Officer  Commanding on 1
Sep 48.  The only other change in the 1940s was the  reassignment to the
Training Command on 1 Apr 49.

The start of the Korean War saw an expansion of the RCAF in late 1950 and the
auxiliary squadrons benefitted.  On 1 Oct 50, the RCAF (Reserve) Operational
Wing Hamilton was activated to administer and control No. 424 Squadron and a
new Officer Commanding, Wing Commander G.C. Frostad, CD was also named.  In
Nov, the squadron began receiving North American Mustang Mk IV's to
supplement the Harvard Mk. II's.  With the expansion of the Air Defence
Command in 1951, RCAF (Reserve) Operational Wing Hamilton was redesignated
No. 16 (Reserve) Wing and the wing and squadron were reassigned to the Air
Defence Command on 1 Aug 51; the wing was redesignated No. 16 Wing
(Auxiliary) on 1 Sep 51.

A trend for auxiliary squadrons was titling them after their home station
and on 19 Sep 52, the squadron was titled No. 424 "City of Hamilton"
(Fighter) Squadron and a new Officer Commanding, Wing Commander M.G.
Marshall, DFC, CD was assigned on 1 Dec 53.  New equipment arrived in Oct 54
in the form of a Canadair Silver Star Mk. 3.  With the buildup of the regular
Air Force in the mid 1950's, the role of the auxiliary units was changed to
support.  This was seen by the equipment changes in 1956; in May, Beechcraft
Expeditor Mk. 3's were received, the Mustang Mk. 4's were gone in Sep and the
Silver Star Mk. 3 was gone in Oct.  The change to a light transport squadron
became official on 1 Sep 57 when the squadron was redesignated No. 424 "City
of Hamilton" (Transport) Squadron (Auxiliary) and was reassigned to the
Training Command; a new Officer Commanding, Wing Commander R.C. Small was
also named on 15 Nov 57.  On 1 Apr 58, the mission of the auxiliary squadrons
was  removed from their designation and the squadron was redesignated No. 424
"City of Hamilton" Squadron (Auxiliary).  By the end of 1958, the Harvard Mk.
II's were gone and the squadron flew Expeditor Mk. 3's exclusively.

A new Officer Commanding, Wing Commander C.H. Forsyth, CD, was named on 1 Mar
59 and being a light transport unit, No. 16 Wing (Auxiliary) and the squadron
were reassigned to the Air Transport Command effective 1 Apr 60.  The
squadron added another role, emergency rescue, and a de Havilland Otter was
added to the roster in Oct 61 to supplement the Expeditor Mk. 3's.  The last
Officer Commanding was Wing Commander G.W. Johnson, DFC, CD, who assumed
command on 1 Mar 62.  A reduction in the Auxiliary Force in the early 1960's
led to the disbandment of the squadron on 1 Apr 64.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 07:47:17 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HELP(IMHO...)

On Fri, 8 Apr 1994 19:47:12 MET-1 Bognar Attila said:
>I got so many kind and funny answers that many times I was ROTFL.
>AFAIK the use of this many abbreviations is significant to (IST?)
>the practical mindedness of the American people.
>
>BTW here's a joke for you all (IAW all this): What would you have
>thought of me if I had not included this second part also?

Why, I would have guessed that you hadn't RTFM (-:

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 06:49:12 CDT
From:    jesse carnes <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Memphis Belle

The Memphis Belle had 2 waist gunners, whose names escape me, but whose
names and tally marks appear on the sides of the ol' girl.
She is about 80 per cent completely restored as I speak, a la Frank Donofrio,
head of the Memphis Belle group in Memphis, TN.

Jesse Carnes
"The B-17 is the most forgiving airplane in battle."

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 06:56:38 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Pacific-inferior equipment?

Hello, Archie!

Thanks for the note and I would like to comment on it.

> I think perhaps the Great Depression and the subsequent spending of large
> sums from the national treasury probably had much to do with the lack of
> equipment available near the beginning of WWII.

    Both these statements are certainly correct, but I think also a
cost-cutting, budget-minded Congress of the '3o's had much to do with
that. I am certain that you have seen footage of soldiers training in
the late 1930's, as late as 1939, training with broomsticks to
simulate rifles, trucks labeled tanks, etc. All that was associated
with Congress refusing to allocate funds, and enough of them, to
allow for the development and purchase of modern equipment.

    But you are correct when you say that the Great Depression had
much to with the lack of equipment available for our troops at the
beginning of the war. That which produced a Congress that wasn't
willing to spend the money.

> Some felt that the war to end all wars had obviated the need for a large
> military.  The failure of the US to join the League of Nations and the
> general isolationism of the nation at that time added to the reluctance
> to support the military in general and R&D in particular.  Look what happened
> to Gen. Billy Mitchell for his demonstration of air warfare potential.
> Zeitgeist most likely!

    I think these statements are all accurate. And the tragedy of it
all is that our soldiers were seriously shortchanged and had to pay
for it, much of it needlessly, with their lives.

    Thanks again.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 07:09:37 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Yamato: Obituary

Hello, Steve!

> Browsing (as I do), the obituaries in the Daily Telegraph (April 9th 94)
> I came across the announcement of the death of one
> Kenneth Huntington of Santa Cruz, CA aged 72. The obituary says that
> as a bomber pilot, he sank the Yamato with a single bomb.
>
> Is this a spectacular feat of arms, or has the obituary writer omitted
> to mention the countless other torpedoes and bombs that (as I have read)
> hit the Yamato before she sank?

    You are absolutely correct. It required many, many torpedoes to
sink the Yamato. I want to say 20-30, but am not certain about the
final total. The writer of that article had, obviously, not done his
homework.

   Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 07:42:34 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hs-293

Hello, Gudmundur!

Here goes with some more info.

                     A-3

Developed at Peenemuende, this was the first touse a central system
to maintain its flight attitude, the system used was gyroscope. It
was intended as the prototype and test vehicle for the next in the
series, the military A-4 rocket. One was successfully fired in 1938,
but others were not so successful and the A-3 was then abandoned. The
A-5 replaced it as a test vehicle for A-4. The design of this rocket
was originally based on the standard 7.92 mm. rifle bullet, because
of that bullet's good ballistic shape.

    Will send another installment this afternoon.

    Please let me know if you have been getting these.

    All the best.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 08:51:06 CET
From:    "LTC Donnell, Doug" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: BGen R.L. Scott, Jr (part 2)

Tim -
It's not too unusual for the AF to give orientation flights in high performance
aircraft (such as the F-15 and F-16), but always in a two seat (trainer)
version. The passenger is, of course, in the back seat.

While it's not unusual (in the sense that it's not particularly newsworthy),
it's dern near impossible to get authorization unless you're someone REALLY
special.  There was a photo in the Stars & Stripes newspaper last week
of our new Secretary of the Air Force, Dr Sheila Widnall, about to head
off into the wild blue yonder in a fighter.

                              Doug Donnell

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 09:12:44 CET
From:    "LTC Donnell, Doug" <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN: Lt Michael's Medal of Honor

I rec'd the following from the USAFE (USAF, Europe) news service:

11 Apr 44 - First Lt Edward Michoel received the Medal of Honor for
his action on this day.  His B-17 was riddled with cannon shells
wounding himself and his co-pilot as well as most of the crew.  Most of
the crew bailed out, but the bombardier's parachute was too badly damaged
and Michoel decided to try a crash landing.  After 45 minutes of evading
German fighters, Michoel took the crippled plane down to a few hundred
feet above the French countryside.  Amazingly, the aircraft flew across
the English Channel to an RAF base.  Both undercarriage and flaps were
inoperable, and the bomb bay doors jammed open.  Although seriously
wounded, Michoel insisted he had enough strength and skillfully brought
the bomber in on its belly.  The aircraft never flew again.

                               Doug Donnell
PS - My typing hasn't improved since my last post. . .his last name
is "Michael".

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 14:51:36 MET-1
From:    Bognar Attila <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HELP(IMHO...)

I only wanted to put the blame on you for TTFN. Of course I take the
responsibilty for the rest.

----------------------------

> > HE,
> >
> > IGSMKAFA TMTIW ROTFL. AFAIK TUOTMAIST (IST?) TPMOTAP.
> >
> > TYFYKH, IHAI.
> >
> > BTW HAJFYA (IAW AT): WWYHTOMII HNITSPA?
> >
> > TA, TTFN (BBFT)
> >
> >
> > Thanks again, TTFN (Blame Bill for this)
> >
> > Attila  [email-masked]
>
>
> It wasn't me, nobody saw me do it, you can't prove a thing!!! :-)
>
> Cheers, Bill Huber

 All the best,

Attila  [email-masked]

"We generally come to conclusions when we grow tired of thinking."

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 10:36:02 -0400
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: ADMIN: Intro to WWII-L

Revision: 8 April 1994
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Welcome to WWII-L, a list dedicated to the discussion of the greatest
cataclysm of the Twentieth century (and, hopefully, the last.) I am Joe
Barone and I'll be listowner until further notice.  I can be reached at
[email-masked].

        WWII-L will be self-moderated.  This means that each of you will
always try to remember that there is a human being on the other end of the
wire, and the "Golden Rule" is rule number one!

        Our subject is HUGE and not everyone will be interested in everything
that moves over the list.  To ease YOUR burden of sorting the items you wish
to read, I offer the following "flags".  They will go FIRST on the Subject:
line.  (This section will be enforced when traffic gets heavy, otherwise
members may use their discretion on the matter.)

EDU   For discussion of aspects of teaching about the war.
SCI   For discussion of science and technology; may overlap with WEAP.
WEAP  For talk of weapons, usage of weapons, and "My favorite weapon."
POL   Political discussions, such as the effects of the Yalta Conference.
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REF   References, review, where-to-buy, etc.
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GEN   "Let's find a category for this."
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      send more information via e-mail rather than posting an entire inventory.
MEDIA To review and report TV and other media "events".
NEWS  For reproductions of newspaper, magazine, and other articles from the
      period under discussion.  Present day news items should be post under
      "MEDIA".
ARC   For discussion of on-line resources and materials, such as those avail-
      able via ftp or gopher.  Discussion of the WWII-OLA (On-Line Archives
      should be posted under this flag.)
TROUBLE  Error messages from a site or address. Last chance to contact me
      before I'm forced to delete you! Anyone who knows the member in question
      is urged to contact them and have the problem corrected.

        Some items will overlap, of course, but the main thrust of the item
should be clear.  Try not to ask so many questions in a single post that the
flags become inoperative.  Several short posts are preferable to one long one,
and are easier to answer and quote.  You should change the flag in the subject
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the subject for people who have to download the mail via slow modem, one of
the main reasons for having the flags at all.)

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additions to this list.  Please keep this table handy until you're comfortable
with the flags.

        Abbreviations are another subject that needs attention.  While many
of us will be comfortable with the most arcane and obscure acronyms and
abbreviations, many of the readers of this list are here to learn more about
the war and will have trouble decyphering your articles if they are packed
with "LAH", "CinCUS", "StuG III", etc.  PLEASE expand these terms at least
once in your post.

        Similarly, since this list is primarily in English, could we please
translate the "foreign" terms?  A long discussion on "Kido Butai" or
"Wacht-am-Rhine" without an explantion of the terms isn't polite if we
exclude part of the list because they have no clue as to the meaning of
the terms.  The converse should also be remembered: English is not the
primary language of many members of the list.  Usenet short-hand should
also be expanded once to avoid redundant traffic explaining what such
abbreviations as BTW mean ("by the way").

        Now we come to the REALLY hard part.

        Some subjects have been beaten to death or evoke strong emotional
responses.  However, I realize that they'll come up from time to time.
If you feel that the following topics must be addressed, ensure that your
wording is precise; consider the responses that it might evoke; and use
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list, but these topics should be handled carefully.  Failure to do so may
result in "flame wars" which will *not* be tolerated on this list.  The
mailing list suffered through one flame war pertaining to the second topic
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tolerate another.  Also, in regards to the Holocaust, there is another
mailing-list, HOLOCAUS-L, devoted to the topic so readers should subscribe
to that list for a more thorough discussion of that topic.  The current
list of topics are:

        1. The Holocaust.
        2. Internment of Japanese-Americans in the US.

        Also, while conspiracy theories were all the rage during in the 1970s
and 1980s, they're rather passe now.  Their novelty is gone and there is little
or no evidence to support them.  Occam's razor applies here: don't attribute
to malice the results of ignorance.  Accordingly, the following topics are
discouraged:

        1. Did Roosevelt know about the coming attack on Pearl Harbor and
           intentionally do nothing in order to drag the US into the war?
        2. Did Churchill allow the bombing of Conventry to occur in order
           to protect the secret of Ultra?

        One last item, STATE YOUR REFERENCES!  You're in tough company here.
Some of the folks in this list are VERY sharp, and you'll end up with egg on
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        Normally the listserv will want you to subscribe from your own account
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's a tip on getting older messages from the listserver:

Date:         Wed, 16 Sep 1992 18:06:11 CDT
From: DONALD NEWCOMB <[email-masked]>
Subject:      Getting back articles and the database

  One of the "niftiest" features of the listserver is the database
search. This allows the user to search for any subject and print
either an index of the "hits" or the articles themselves. For
instance if you mail the command sequence below to "[email-masked]"
or "[email-masked]" it will send you an index of all
articles in the archive that deal with weapons (the WEAP: tag).
_
//Job
Database Search DD=Rules
//Rules DD *
sel * in wwii-l where subject contains ("weap:")
index
/*
_
If you change the word "index" to "print" it will return you a copy
of the articles themselves. I think you can start with the listserv
"help" command and find a complete set of instructions  for using the
database. The complete instructions are very complex and should only
be tackled by someone with experience with data searching experience.

Donald R. Newcomb - Univ. of Southern Mississippi - Gulf Park
   <[email-masked]>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Enough talking.  I can be reached at the following address:

Joe Barone, WWII-L Listowner
[email-masked]
W: (401) 842-4054
Always wit' da negative waves, Moriarty!  Always wit' da negative waves!

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 14:02:37 MET
From:    Ireneusz Jakobik <[email-masked]>
Subject: Roger Waters: When the Tigers Broke Free

Hi all,
read this:

Roger Waters: When The Tigers Broke Free
----------------------------------------

It was just before dawn
One miserable morning in black '44
When the forward commander
Was told to sit tight
When he asked that his men be withdrawn
And the generals gave thanks
As the other ranks
Held back the enemy tanks
For a while
And the Anzio bridgehead was held for the price
Of a few hundred ordinary lives.

And kind old King George sent Mother a note
When he heard that Father was gone.
It was, I recall, in the form of a scroll,
With gold leaf and all
And I found it one day
In a drawer of old photographs hidden away
And my eyes still grow damp
To remember His Majesty signed
With his own rubber stamp.

It was dark all around,
There was frost in the ground
When The Tigers Broke Free.
And no one survived
>From the Royal Fusiliers,
Company, "C"
They were all left behind,
Most of them dead,
The rest of them dying
And that's how the High Command
Took my Daddy
>From me.

Roger Waters was a "Pink Floyd" member and he wrote this song.
And about Laibach... John, I didn't know that "We shall fight on the
beaches" came from Churchil's speach. Laibach is very provocative group.
Watch their video for "Across the Universe" (originaly The Beatless song)
with young boys wearing Hitler Jugend-like uniforms.
Irek.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 09:27:07 -0500
From:    Stan Koper <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Memphis Belle

> She is about 80 per cent completely restored as I speak, a la Frank Donofrio,
> head of the Memphis Belle group in Memphis, TN.
>
Is this the same "Memphis Belle" that my kids and I visited last
year at the airport at Norwood, MA?

Stan Koper
[email-masked]
      "Never Let A Machine Know You're In A Hurry"
 This message brought to you by uqwk and Yarn 0.58

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 10:36:21 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: Intro to WWII-L

Bravo Barone!

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 17:13:52 MET-1
From:    Bognar Attila <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HELP(IMHO...)

On 11 April Ken Koestner wrote:

> >I got so many kind and funny answers that many times I was ROTFL.
> >AFAIK the use of this many abbreviations is significant to (IST?)
> >the practical mindedness of the American people.
> >
> >BTW here's a joke for you all (IAW all this): What would you have
> >thought of me if I had not included this second part also?
>
> Why, I would have guessed that you hadn't RTFM (-:

ssssssrrrrrrrrrtttttttttteeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaakkkkkkkkk!

(This was meant to be a scream)

 All the best,

Attila  [email-masked]

"We generally come to conclusions when we grow tired of thinking."

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 17:18:19 MET-1
From:    Bognar Attila <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Roger Waters: When the Tigers Broke Free

On 11 April Irek said:

> Hi all,
> read this:
>
> Roger Waters: When The Tigers Broke Free
> ----------------------------------------
>
>
> It was just before dawn
> One miserable morning in black '44

  **lyrics deleted**

>
> Roger Waters was a "Pink Floyd" member and he wrote this song.

This is a fantastic song. I love it. But why did you quote it here?
Did you want to ask something about it?

All the best,

Attila  [email-masked]

"We generally come to conclusions when we grow tired of thinking."

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 12:26:04 CDT
From:    jesse carnes <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Memphis Belle

Stan Koper et al ;

THE "Memphis Belle" which was piloted by Bob Morgan and C/P by Jim Verinnis,
is a "static" B-17 ... in that it does not fly, but stays 'put' w/in its
pavillion on Mud Island, Memphis, TN.

I am puzzed by what you saw, Stan!

I'veheard of female impersonators, but a 'Belle' impersonator?
;-)

Jesse Carnes
[email-masked]
B.R., LA
----------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 13:31:00 -0400
From:    DAVID WILMA 415-744-2485 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Memphis Belle

          The model may have the waist windows closed.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 14:58:01 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: A-4

Hello, Gudmundur!

Here goes with some more info.

                      A-4

A-4, generally know as V-2, being so labelled by Hitler as the 2nd of
his Vergeltungswaffen, but always known to the German Army as the A-
4. This was put on paper in 1936 as a design study for a rocket to
supplant heavy artillery. It was a long-range fin-stabilized rocket
weighing 13.6 tons at launch and carrying a warhead loaded with 1 ton
of high explosive. The rocket motor was a bi-fuel type using liquid
oxygen and alcohol and would burn for 70 seconds. Control was
performed by turning the rocket on to a pre-set trajectory after
launch, using programmed controls and then shutting off the motor at
some calculated point to allow the rocket to reach the target on a
ballistic trajectory.

The warhead was filled with 60/40 Amatol (60% TNT and 40% Ammonium
Nitrate) a fact which caused a great deal of head-scratching at
Allied agencies at the time. This is one of the weakest explosives
known and the Germans had plentiful supplies of far more powerful
compositions which would have increased the lethal area of the
warhead by a considerable amount. For some time,  it was assumed that
the answer lay in economics, though with the amount of money being
laid out for such a device, the cost of improving the explosive would
have been but a drop in the bucket. Post-war investigation revealed
that the answer was simply that the warhead underwent considerable
heating in its descent through the atmosphere and any more sensitive
filling would have given premature explosions. The warhead was fuzed
by a simple electrical contact system which closed on impact and had
a slight delay sufficient to allow the warhead to bury about 3 feet
into the ground before detonating.

The accuracy of the A-4 was such that rockets fired at London, with a
mean range of 18 miles could be expected to fall anywhere within a
rectangle 16 miles long by 13 miles wide.

Production of the A-4 began in early 1944 and by 8 Sep, when attacks
began against England, some 1800 were stockpiled. In all, about
10,000 were produced of which 1115 were fired against England, 1341
against Antwerp, 65 against Brussels, 98 against Liege, 15 against
Paris, 5 into Luxemburg and 11 against the Remagen bridge.

More tomorrow, Gudmundur.

All the best.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 15:08:24 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: SPECULATION: No WWII for USA without Pearl Harbor?

Hello, everyone!

I have one question for the list and would like to know your
thoughts. Would Japan have ever attacked the US if there had not been
an Adolf Hitler?

Reactions?

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 16:12:23 -0400
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Weap: Triumph of the Will

What, you all query, does the _Triumph of the Will_ have to do with
weapons? Well, when studying the 1934 Nazi propaganda film, I had always
read/heard that the reason that all of the "soldiers" were carrying
shovels was that Germany had not yet had time to re-arm themselves. This
always had seemed like a reasonable explanation, and I didn't question
it. Recently, however, I read a different version of the story. I'm
reading the book _Soldat_ which is a biography of Siegfried Knappe, a
German soldier from 1936-49. At the half-way mark, it's quite good, and I
recommend it as an interesting, quick, read. Anyway, I digress. In this
book, Knappe claims to have been at the Nuremberg rally in 1934 when the
_Triumph of the Will_ was filmed, representing the Labour Service who,
naturally, had parade spades rather than rifles (as they were not
fighting units). Does anyone know the truth to this? Was Germany so short
of weapons, that they "armed" their people with spades for parade
purposes, or were the vast majority of people at the 1934 Nuremberg rally
from the Labour Service? I guess a secondary question would be: were
people required to do Labour Service instead of military service
_because_ there were not enough weapons to go around at the time? Anyway,
I've babbled long enough.
David Rising
(BTW, still no video release date on _Stalingrad_)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 14:39:26 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: A-4

Yes, indeed, a technical marvel.
        One would be remiss not to add the *results* of such technology:
                German V2 rockets killed 2, 541 British
                   "   "    "       "    4, 683 Continental Europeans

Wehrner von Braun's biography was entitled, I AIM AT THE STARS.
Only, sometimes he hit London...

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 17:39:00 EST
From:    Don Bowden <[email-masked]>
Subject: obsolete equipment

        Just a little devils advocate type comments. Would the US have really
been better off manufacuring large numbers of Douglas Devastator's and Bell
Aircobras or P36s in the late 30's not to mention inferior, unreliable tor-
pedoes? While it is often attractive to blame the politicians the military
has often been the author of many of there own problems. Was the lack of an
effective anti-tank gun at the start of WWII the fault of lack of money or
lack of awareness in the planning and procurement of the armed forces. In
the Pacific, with not that many exceptions, existing US (Army) equipment
was the equal or superior to the Japanese counterpart. My impression is that
Japanese Naval equipment both on the water and in the air was superior to
what the USN had. Also, as I recall, Japanese Naval training was much more
rigorous and much better simulated actual battle conditions than that
carried out by the American surface fleet, with the corresponding poor
showing of US surface units through much of the first years of the war.
In spite of the storm clouds on the horizon the US was unprepared politically,
economically, and often militarily for the war and everyone contributed to
this unpreparedness.
        Also an aside about Billy Mitchell, he was arrogant and publicly
questioned the competence of his superiors. As you all know, this is not
the most productive way to influence opinion. In many ways his claims for
bombing/strategic bombing were not close to being technically possible.
He could be thought of as the godfather of the strategic bombing campaign
in WWII, but its impact on the final outcome of the war remains controver-
sial to this day. Enormous resources were spent on it and the losses were
horrific. Geoffrey Perret (sp) has also written a fascinating history of
the USAAF which, like his "There is a war to be won" is filled with often
hilariously acerbic comments. One thing he points out is that the "fighter
mafia" came to dominate the AF. Was that a defacto admission that strategic
bombing was not as important as the advocates suggested.
        A final thought: one of my favorite subjects is the supposed opera-
tional superiority of some Army's compared to the US. At the start of Ameri-
can campaigning in North Africa the British were upset that the American
command didn't accept British suzerainty when they had all the experience.
To paraphrase Geoffrey Perret, from the US point of view, British expertise
and experience to this time in land warfare consisted of defeat, retreat, and
surrender whenever they faced the Germans, which (for some reason) the Ameri-
cans seemed unwilling to emulate. From other reason I have gotten the imprs-
sion that the RAF and USAAF had a much better relationship; the RAF had been
successful and particularly in tactical thinking the Americans borrowed
extensively from the British.
Regards to all,
Don Bowden
Winston-Salem, NC

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 16:44:07 -0500
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: "German soldier from 1936-49" ??

Was this a typo, or was there some kind of German Army still in
  existence from 1945-49?

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 18:53:40 -0400
From:    Jim Broussard <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: SPECULATION: No WWII for USA without Pearl Harbor?

>I have one question for the list and would like to know your
>thoughts. Would Japan have ever attacked the US if there had not been
>an Adolf Hitler?

>Terry

        I would say yes.  The Japanese were so deeply involved
        in China  that they could not well pull out without huge
        loss of face by all concerned.  But at some point, even
        without Hitler, the US would have embargoed scrap iron &
        oil, & possibly frozen Japanese assets in the US.

        The Japanese would then have faced the same problem they
        actually did: see their economy & especially their military
        capability seriously damaged, or move into Southeast Asia
        to get more resources.

        This would then have posed the same question they actually
        faced: if you're going to do that, do you wait & hope the
        US doesn't respond, or do you try to take out the US
        capability with an attack at Pearl Harbor?  I think their
        decision would have been the same...

Jim Broussard

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 19:12:00 -0400
From:    DAVID WILMA 415-744-2485 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Weap: Triumph of the Will

          I believe that the party members with shovels were members of the
          labor corps rather than surrogate soldiers.  In 1934, the
          National Socialists were still pretending to be a workers' party
          and was not emphasizing military conquest.

          Another note:  I saw a documentary in which one of the film
          makers stated that the music was composed after editing.  the
          reason was that the cameras were still fairly unsophisticated and
          did not operate at the same speed.   As a result, the music had
          to be composed at the tempo of the marchers on the screen and
          each scene had a different tempo.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 15:22:59 CDT
From:    jesse carnes <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Roger Waters: When the Tigers Broke Free

Maybe it is more succinctly :

"We usually employ sweeping generalizations when we grow tired of thinking."

BTW Attila, is that your name or a 'moniker'... alias ... pseudonym... all the
above?   ;-)

Jesse Carnes

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 20:02:37 -0500
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Memphis Belle

In message World War II Discussion List writes:
>           The model may have the waist windows closed.

B-17 waist windows aren't closable (though they may be partially covered
in plexi...)

--
Robert J. Granvin                                             [email-masked]
University of Minnesota, School of Statistics
         "I'm my father?  I'm my mother?  I'm chipped beef on toast?"

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 20:59:04 EST
From:    "CARL WERNKE (TCWERNC@VCCSCENT)" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Yamato : Obituary

 X-TO: [email-masked]
 TO: Multiple recipients of list WWII-L([email-masked])

 Terry and Steve,

 On 10 Apr 1994, Terry wrote --> You are absolutely correct. It required
 many, many torpedoes to sink the Yamato.

 The last sortie of the Imperial Japanese Navy, and the ships involved, were
 used as diversionary bait. A dash was to be made by the battleship Yamato
 and accompanying ships , designed to draw off as many American planes as
 possible, thus leaving the Allied naval force vulnerable to a large-scale
 kamikaze raid.

 The composition of this last force was code-named TEN GO, which included
 Yamato, 1-CL, and 8-DDs. 6 April was designated TEN GO Day. The Japanese
 were so short of oil at home that the Yamato had only enough to make it to
 Okinawa. If she made it, the plan was to beach her and use her 18-inch
 guns in support of the ground fighting. Many of the ships' captains were
 against the operation, preferring to be let loose as sea raiders, but
 TEN GO was ordered by ADM Osami Nagano, chief of the Naval General Staff.
 At 1600 on 6 April the ships weighed anchor at Tokuyama and started what
 would be the last voyage for most.

 At 0400 on 7 April 1945 a report came stating that 250 planes of Task Force 58
 were headed for the TEN GO force. At 1220 the Yamato signalled the presence
 of many planes, 33,000 yards off her port bow. The fleet had been jumped only
 175 miles south of Kyushu, and the massacre of the last vestiges of the
 IJN had begun. The waves of hundreds of U.S. planes were virtually
 continuous. The Yamato was first hit by bombs at 1240, and then by torpedoes
 on her port side at 1250. She took eight more torpedoes on the port side and
 two starboard; by 1405 the listing ship could not be righted, and
 "Abandon Ship" was ordered. The last torpedo hit at 1417 and caused the
 Yamato's list to go to 20 degrees; finally the ship erupted, sending a cloud
 of smoke upward in a column, thousands of feet above her. From the Yamato,
 there had been 2,498 killed. With the sinking of the great battleship
 Yamato, the once-formidable Imperial Japanese Navy ceased to exist.

 Excerpts were obtained from *The Imperial Japanese Navy (1941-1945)*, by
 Paul S. Dull, 1978.

  EX SCIENTIA TRIDENT

  Carl Wernke

  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Apr 1994 03:05:17 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: SPECULATION: No WWII for USA without Pearl Harbor?

On Mon, 11 Apr 1994, Terry Moore wrote:

> I have one question for the list and would like to know your
> thoughts. Would Japan have ever attacked the US if there had not been
> an Adolf Hitler?

On one hand, it was Hitler who made the Japanese sign a non-agression
treaty with the USSR. Without German interference the Japanese might have
preferred to attack Vladivostok rather than Pearl Harbour. The debate on
it was still alive in 1941. And with no war in Europe, a British presence
in the Pacific would have made an attack in that direction less
attractive. The US or Britain would not, under that cirucmstances, have
been inclined to support the USSR in a war against Japan.

On the other hand, the Japanese were likely to attack even if they major
enemies hadn't been occupied with a war in Europe, because the decision
was based on national pride rather than on logic. Without a Hitler the
rearmament of the US would not have begun already in 1940, making the US
even weaker than it really was, and the conflict over China would still
have been there.

My guess: Yes, the Japanese would have attacked someone; but it might as
well have been the USSR instead of the US.

Emmanuel

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Apr 1994 01:50:05 +0000
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: SPECULATION: US offensive to Moskva after 5.45?

Hey all

        Didnt Patton wish to continue his 3rd army offensive well beyond
the Reich? I heard somewhere that he wished to take on the Russians
after the Reich would have been beaten. Is this true and if so did other
Western_allied commanders share that view?

        I see the Alliance of UK, USA, Canada and French on the one side
and the USSR on the other side as nothing more than the west sharing
enemy with the USSR.

        Just an idea, nothing to deep though :) I wonder how US, UK, CAN
attack on the USSR would have fared. Guess the public in these countries
would not have accepted that :)

bye for now

Gudmundur J. Helgason                      E-mail:    [email-masked]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Patriotism is the arrogance of assuming that your country is the greatest one
there is, simply because *you* were born there".
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 21:12:31 -0500
From:    Filiberto Farini <[email-masked]>
Subject: DDAY, NORMANDY OPERATION OVERLORD.....

DOES ANYBODY OF YOU KNOW where can I find in internet, texts about the dday?
I'm making a monografy, can somebody of you tell me some anecdotes...?

thanks a lot....
 =========================
 Filiberto Farini
 [email-masked]
 Quito - Ecuador
 ==========================

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End of WWII-L Digest - 10 Apr 1994 to 11 Apr 1994
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