Subject: WWII-L Digest - 26 Apr 1994 to 27 Apr 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 1994 00:00:56 -0400

There are 28 messages totalling 971 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Nazi Bombers (2)
  2. Japanese Underground? (2)
  3. Re[2]: Tirpitz (2)
  4. REF: Battleship TX
  5. Tirpitz (5)
  6. Query for Barry Lowe ref COL Hartle
  7. INF: USAAF 27 APR 44
  8. PLOESTI, ROMANIA
  9. TRV: Off Beat Weapons...
 10. German Helicopters
 11. Exercise Tiger
 12. USS TEXAS
 13. GEN: Lindburgh
 14. U.S.S. Buckley (2)
 15. TAC: Graf Spee (Was: Tirpitz)
 16. Stalag Luft III
 17. TRV:French diplomatic blunders
 18. Lindbergh
 19. Otto Skorzeny
 20. ULTRA in BARAROSSA

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 26 Apr 1994 09:38:13 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Nazi Bombers

>
> On Tue, 26 Apr 1994 14:07:09 +0200 Emmanuel Gustin said:
> >The only enemy bombs dropped on the North American continent during WWII
> >were four Japanese 76kg firebombs, dropped by a Yokosuka E14Y 'Glenn'
> >reconaissance aircraft for submarines.
>
> ?  Didn't a few of the balloon-bombs actually make it across the Pacific to
> Oregon?

Yes, but no meaningful result was achieved.

I believe the only casualties were a few people who found the balloons and
tampered with them, setting off the self destruct devices.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 26 Apr 1994 10:03:18 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Japanese Underground?

>
> Hello, Johannes!
>
> > It is well known that in Germany there was an underground movement trying to
> > depose Hitler. Was there any underground to speak of in Japan? It would be
> > incredible to conclude that all Japanese supported their warlords
> > absolutely. So, who were the Japanese dissidents and what happened to them?
>
>     Perhaps so in Europe and to the Western mind. However, I think
> there was no underground opposition group to the policy makers in
> Japan. I can't vouch for this, but given the nature of the Oriental
> mind, I would think that the Japanese Gov't could completely rely on
> the support of the Japanese people. After all, they were taught to
> obey authority, particularly that of the state.

That's incorrect.  There was an opposition to the Japanese wartime government,
although it was weak and fragmented.

Considerable numbers of intellectuals and political liberals were prosecuted
under the "thought crimes" legislation.

This is covered in some detail in "Japan at War, an Oral History".

>     That may also be the reason why the Japanese did not protest the
> trial and execution of their war leaders by the Allies at the end of
> the war. The same could not be said of those tried and executed in
> Europe.
>
The wartime leadership had so to speak, "lost the mandate of heaven".  They'd
failed and lost face in the process.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 26 Apr 1994 23:08:31 -0700
From:    Gerry Walker <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Tirpitz

Scott

The Graf Spee was one of what were referred to as pocket battleships or
panzerschiffe (SP?). They were of about 10,000 tons, I believe and had a
main armament of 11 in. guns (6, I believe in 2 turrets).

Designed as commerce raiders, they strong suit was speed.

The Graf Spee was scuttled at Montevideo harbor by her skipper, Langsdorf, aafteafter being chased there by a force of Commonwealth ships. Ajax, Achilles &
Exeter are the names that come to mind of the pursuing ships.

Been a while since I used my naval history but I remember that a movie was
made called The Battle of the River Plate which was done in a fashion only
creditable to the British...historically accurate to large extent but a bit
too nostalgic of the glory days of the Royal Navy.

If you need more info, I can probably dig up a bit more detail so, just let me
know

Cheers,

Gerry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Apr 1994 09:28:00 CET
From:    Peter de Lange <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: REF: Battleship TX

> Hello all.  I am interested in finding out all possible information regarding
> the Battleship Texas during WWII.  I have never come accross anything here in

Look with ftp at byrd.mu.wvnet.edu
directory pub/history/maritime/american_bat_dir and under
bb35.txt you find all information about the BB Texas.
And the compliments to Larry Jewell for this excellent job.
(If you do'nt have ftp contact me!)
Peter de Lange
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Apr 1994 18:22:23 SST
From:    LEE YU JIN <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Tirpitz

> Here are some books about the TIRPITZ:
>
> Gallagher, Thomas Michael.  The X-Craft Raid.  New York: Harcourt Brace
>   Jovanovich, 1971.
>
> Kennedy, Ludovic Henry Coverly.  Menace, the Life and Death of the Tirpitz.
>   London: Sidgwick & Jackson, 1979.
>
> Woodward, David.  The Tirpitz and the Battle for the North Atlantic.  New
>   York: Norton, 1954.
>
> Read more about it.
>
> Michael Wallick
>

I own a comic called "TARGET TIRPITZ", which tells the story  :)

Lee Yu Jin

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Apr 1994 06:44:49 EDT
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <[email-masked]>
Subject: Query for Barry Lowe ref COL Hartle

WWII-L:

My system dumped my messages this morning. Would whowever asked me
about COL Hartle please send me a b/c message.  I have his e-mail address
for you.

Thanks,

barry

Barrett F. Lowe               RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, West Point  (e-mail:  [email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Apr 1994 07:15:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USAAF 27 APR 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
THURSDAY, 27 APRIL 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  F-7, Consolidated Liberator
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): A B-25 bombs a submarine without success.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 12 B-25s hit the Kalemyo storage
area; 12 B-25s hit the railroad at 4 points around Shwebo; nearly 150 P-40s,
P-51s, A-36s and B-25s blast troops, fuel dumps, gun positions and railroad
yard at several locations in the Mogaung Valley, including Myitkyina,
Mogaung, Namti, Kamaing, Mohnyin, Hopin, Nanyaseik, Chaungwa and Myothit.
  24th Combat Mapping Squadron, 8th Photographic Reconnaissance Group, based
at Guskhara, India, sends a detachment to Hsinching, China with F-7s.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): Rocket-firing P-40s attack 20 junks S of
Shasi, China.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 322: 596 bombers and 357
fighters are dispatched to bomb V-weapon sites in the Pas de Calais and
Cherbourg areas of France; 4 bombers and 2 fighters are lost; the fighters
claim 0-0-2 Luftwaffe aircraft on the ground; 307 of 393 B-17s and 169 of
203 B-24s hit the target; 3 B-17s are lost and 227 damaged; 1 B-24 is lost, 2
damaged beyond repair and 25 damaged; B-17s casualties are are 7 WIA and 30
MIA; B-24 casualties are 3 KIA, 9 WIA and 10 MIA; escort is provided by 47
P-38s, 262 P-47s and 48 P-51s; 1 P-47 and 1 P-51 are lost; both pilots are
MIA.
  Mission 323: 486 bombers and 543 fighters are dispatched to bomb airfields,
marshalling yards and targets of opportunity in France and Belgium; 4 bombers
and 4 fighters are lost.
  1. 168 B-17s are dispatched to bomb Nancy/Essay Airfield (103 bomb) and
Toul/Croix de Metz landing ground (60 bomb), France; 2 B-17s are lost and 33
damaged; 20 airmen are MIA.
  2. Of 120 B-17s, 98 bomb Le Culot Airfield and 20 bomb Ostend/Middelkerke
Airfield, Belgium; 2 B-17s are lost and 29 damaged; 1 airman is KIA and 20
MIA.
  3. Of 198 B-24s, 118 bomb Blainville sur L'eau marshalling yard and 72 bomb
Chalons sur Marne marshalling yard, France; 2 B-24s are damaged beyond repair
and 22 damaged; casualties are 24 KIA, 6 WIA and 1 MIA.
  Escort is provided by 106 P-38s, 283 P-47s and 154 P-51s; the fighters
claim 3-0-1 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 4-0-5 on the ground; 4 P-47s
are lost and 2 P-47s and 1 P-51 are damaged; 3 airmen are MIA.
  Mission 324: 5 of 5 B-17s drop 3.36 million leaflets on 23 towns in France
including Cambrai, Orleans, Rennes, Nantes, Brest, Tours, Lorient, Caen, Le
Mans, Limoges and Chatearuoux without loss.
  Other missions:
  1. 21 B-24s are dispatched on CARPETBAGGER operations; 1 B-24 is lost.
  2. 52 P-38s, using the Droopsnoot method, attack Roye Amy Airfield, France
without loss.
  3. 36 P-38s, using the Droopsnoot method, attack Albert/Meaulte Airfield,
France; 6 P-38s are damaged.
  4. 17 P-51s dive bomb Cormeilles-en-Vexin Airfield, France without loss.
  849th and 850th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), 490th Bombardment Group
(Heavy), arrive at Eye, England from the US with B-24s; first mission is 31
May.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): About 450 B-26s and A-20s and 275+
P-47 and P-51 dive bombers attack gun emplacements, marshalling yards,
coastal batteries, airfields and several military installations in France and
Belgium.
  Unit moves in England: 24th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, III
Tactical Air Command, to Chalgrove from the US with F-5s (first mission is 23
May); 302d Troop Carrier Squadron, 441st Troop Carrier Group from Langar to
Merryfield with C-47s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, weather again severely
restricts operations; P-40s attack a supply dump N of Rome, scoring 7 hits in
the target area.
  12th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, 3d Photographic Group
(Reconnaissance), based at Pomigliano, Italy, sends a detachment to operate
from Nettuno, Italy with F-5s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-24s, staging through Eniwetok
Atoll, bomb Truk Atoll during the night of 26/27 Apr. B-25s from Eniwetok
follow up during the day with 3 raids on Ponape Island; Makin Island-based
B-25s hit Jaluit, Wotje and Mille Atolls. 1 B-24 from Kwajalein Atoll, using
Makin Island as a rearming base, bombs Jabor and Emidj and Enybor Islands,
Jaluit Atoll.
  820th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 41st Bombardment Group (Medium), moves
from Tarawa Atoll to Makin Island with B-25s.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): 16 B-24s bomb Dublon, Eten,
Moen, and Fefan Islands, Truk Atoll in the early morning. On New Britain
Island, 24 B-25s blast the Talili Bay supply area; later a few P-39s hit the
same target.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, Babo is bombed
by 9 B-24s; 100+ B-24s, B-25s and A-20s attack Mushu and Kairiru Islands and
airfields at Wewak, Boram, Dagua and But; 120+ A-20s and fighter-bombers
blast the coastal areas of Hansa Bay and nearby villages, personnel areas NW
of Bunabun, and AA positions, villages and bridges from Bunabun to Cape
Croisilles.
  7th Fighter Squadron, 49th Fighter Group, moves from Gusap to Finschhafen,
New Guinea with P-40s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Apr 1994 07:32:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: PLOESTI, ROMANIA

THE FOLLOWING IS FROM THE AIR FORCE NEWS AGENCY

264.  Return to Ploesti
by TSgt. David P. Masko
Air Force News Service
     WASHINGTON -- For the 50th anniversary of D-Day, thousands of Air Force
veterans will hit the beaches of Normandy 6 June.  But even before the D-Day
celebration, some veterans will celebrate another key event -- the Ploesti,
Romania raid.
     A group of 17 Air Force World War II fliers -- many of them once held in
Romania as prisoners of war -- will return to Romania 4-11 May for a nostalgic
look back.  The veterans will visit former POW camps in Timisul de Jos and
Bucharest, and see targets they bombed at Ploesti.
     For World War II buffs who served the Army Air Forces, Ploesti holds a
special poignancy.  The men who participated in the raid, say Air Force
historians, have survived not only the rigors of the battlefield but the
decades of life ever since.
     On 1 Aug 43, 177 B-24 Liberator bombers of the Ninth Air Force took off
from bases in Africa on a 2,400-mile round-trip flight to bomb the important
oil fields at Ploesti.
     Historians say it was to be a low-level surprise attack, but on the way
in some of the planes got lost and the oil fields' strong defenses were
alerted.  Fifty-four of the B-24s failed to return.
     For the first time, five Medals of Honor were awarded to men in the same
military operation.  As a result of the attack, production in the Ploesti oil
fields was cut 40 percent.
     Summing up the mission, one B-24 pilot said, "We were dragged through the
mouth of hell."
     Although last August marked Ploesti's 50 anniversary, B-24s made even
more extensive bombings of Ploesti between April and August 1944.  Historians
believe the bombings helped to "soften- up" Germany for the 6 June D-Day
assault.
     Veterans returning to Ploesti are members of the "Association of Former
Romanian POWs."  Their sponsor, both during the war and in the intervening
years, was the Romanian Princess Catherine Caradja, who died last year at the
age of 100.
     For more information about Ploesti, interested persons may visit the Air
Force Museum at Dayton, Ohio, or the Pentagon -- both have World War II
exhibits commemorating the raid.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Apr 1994 06:30:01 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRV: Off Beat Weapons...

Hello, Jonathan!

I will corroborate your statement below. I am currently reading that
work, and I well remember the incident you mention that is detailed
in Carell's book. One German tank was disabled, as a result of this
unconventional attack, as I remember. But after it was seen what was
going on, it didn't take the Germans long to foil any further
attempts to blow up their tanks.

Thanks.

Terry

----------------------------------------------------------------------
> It was the Soviets that trained dogs to do this. See Paul Carrel _Hitler
> Moves East_ ,(I don't have it handy but I am fairly certain this info is
> in there).  The Germans soon learned to shoot any stray dogs
> wandering near their tanks.  It is doubtful that very many German tanks were
> destroyed and Carrel even says that some of these dogs would blow Russian
> tanks by mistake.
>
> my $.02 worth,
> Jonathan Stevens
>

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Apr 1994 06:35:18 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Tirpitz

Hello, Scott!

Great to hear from you again.

>      Does anybody know the history of the "Graf Spee"?

    This has already been posted to you. Captain Langsdorff, as you
know, committed suicide shortly after the scuttling of his ship. A
truly honorable officer. He was so highly respected that the British
themselves, sent a representation to his funeral.

 As I recall, it was
>      a "pocket battleship" which was expected to perform miracles of
>      warfare but ended up being a tin can target for the Royal Navy. Is it
>      true that the "Graf Spee" was the most heavily armed and armored of
>      all German ships sans the Bismarck?

    As you know, the Germans possessed three such ships, the Graf
Spee, the Deutschland, later renamed the Luetzow, and the Admiral
Scheer. These ships were created to get around the clauses of
Versailles forbidding the Germans to possess capital ships. Thus the
Germans used cruiser hulls and mounted large caliber weapons, which
was permitted under the Versailles Treaty.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Apr 1994 06:50:30 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: German Helicopters

Hello, Tony!

Great to hear from you once again.

Will answer your questions as best I can.

> I would appreciate information on helicopters that flew during the War. Perfor-
> mance data and if they were involved in any missions.

    The info I posted to you are all helicopters which flew in WWII.
Do you want info on all of them? I will send you what you need.

> I don't want you to dig too deep, so if you don't have the data on a specific
> helocopter just say so.

    That will be no problem. I will send you what you require to the
best of my ability.

 > Thanks much,

    You are very welcome. Please advise.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Apr 1994 08:01:22 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Exercise Tiger

>As RAdm Moon was serving in the Mediterranean at time of his suicide,
>the TIGER disaster seems a bit remote from him.  Wonder what the
>connection was.  ?

The article mentioned that he had orchestrated the training exercise, and
that he had been reassigned to the Med, probably in disgrace.

-Al

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Wild, LAN Mgr.  Father of 1.5             Voice:          (401) 792-2611
ACC - Lippitt - URI  American Legion Post 102. FAX:            (401) 792-5479
Kingston, RI  02881                            Bitnet:           AWild@URIACC
                                               Internet: [email-masked]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Apr 1994 08:16:42 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Tirpitz

Professor Moore writes,...

>Hello, Alan!
>
>However, don't forget that the Tirpitz was first bombed in its fjord
>at Trondheim by the Dambuster Squadron of the RAF, Number 617. That
>raid brought about the only recorded court martial of a Knight's
>Cross holder in the Wehrmacht. A scapegoat was needed and Heinrich
>Ehrler's squadron was blamed for not reacting fast enough to save the
>ship.

In reading the material (years ago) I remember being amazed by the fact
that they had to deal with the Earth's geometry with their 16" guns. It
seems that when they shot North or South to any substantial degree, the
shell would lose radius with respect to the Earth axis of rotation. The
loss of radius resulted in greater speed in the direction of spin,
eastward. The error became greater, the greater the range, and resulted
in a correcting formula that varried in terms of latitude and direction.
An interesting fact is that the affect is lesser near the equator.

'Regards, Alan

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Wild, LAN Mgr.  Father of 1.5             Voice:          (401) 792-2611
ACC - Lippitt - URI  American Legion Post 102. FAX:            (401) 792-5479
Kingston, RI  02881                            Bitnet:           AWild@URIACC
                                               Internet: [email-masked]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Apr 1994 08:46:30 -0500
From:    "W.C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Tirpitz

>In reading the material (years ago) I remember being amazed by the fact
>that they had to deal with the Earth's geometry with their 16" guns. It
>seems that when they shot North or South to any substantial degree, the
>shell would lose radius with respect to the Earth axis of rotation. The
>loss of radius resulted in greater speed in the direction of spin,
>eastward. The error became greater, the greater the range, and resulted
>in a correcting formula that varried in terms of latitude and direction.
>An interesting fact is that the affect is lesser near the equator.

Yep...'tis true...the "coriolis force" or the "force that isn't but
is".  Same reason that the winds generally go counterclockwise around a
low pressure area and that that little whirlpool around your drain
goes counterclockwise in the Northern Hemisphere.

Bill

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Apr 1994 08:14:18 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: USS TEXAS

The Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships entry for USS TEXAS is
in the Battleship directory (look under /pub/history/maritime at
byrd.mu.wvnet.edu) along with many other bios on US BB's.  Byrd is mirrored
in the marshall directory at sunsite.unc.edu.

Larry J

[email-masked]; Co-Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU (Historical docs)
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Apr 1994 07:58:41 -0500
From:    Joe Pohlmann <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Tirpitz

        The "Graf Spee" was the most heavily armed ship on the water at
the time, FOR ITS SIZE.  It carried six 11 inch guns, and was approximately
the size of a heavy cruiser (approx. 12,100 tons displacement).
        This configuration would have made it quite deadly in ship to ship
combat against the same size ships of the Royal Navy.  For example, the
Norfolk CA had a displacement of approx. 10,300 tons and carried 8 inch guns
(9 of them, I believe).  At most battle ranges, the 11 inch guns would
penetrate the lightly armored Norfolk, while the Graf Spee would be
relatively well protected by the significantly weaker 8 inch guns of the
Norfolk.
        Unfortunately for the Germans, the British did not fight a one on
one battle, as was mentioned before.

        In comparing the Graf Spee to all surface vessels of the German
navy, the Bismarck and Tirpitz were most heavily armed (eight 15 inch
main guns), the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were second (nine 11 inch
main guns), and the Graf Spee and her sister ships came in third.

        With regards to speed, although the Graf Spee was designed from
a cruiser's hull, the heavy turrets caused the Graf Spee to have very poor
acceleration and top speed (around 24 knots).  This was no match for the
cruisers of the RN, which most often had top speeds of 30-32 knots and
much better acceleration.  This speed was slow, even compared with some
of the British battleships and battlecruisers, which had speeds ranging
from 21 to 32 knots.

        In summary, the Germans could say, "Any ship I can't outrun, I
can outgun."  This was true.  But it was a freak occurrence when the
British and the Germans fought at 1:1 odds.

Joe Pohlmann
[email-masked]
(513) 467-2106

"The big gun, whiat's that?"
"It's a weapon, powerful enough to blow up the whole world!"
"Who are we going to use it on?"
"The Russians."

(from the movie 'Real Men')

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Apr 1994 09:01:04 -0500
From:    "Sidney W. Kitchel" <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN: Lindburgh

Bill Huber writes:
>He ended his days exploring remote jungles looking for undiscovered
>populations of native peoples and found some in New Guinea, I think.
>He was a most interesting person.

        I believe that after the war he got involved in
medical/biological research. He was on some project investigating the
causes of ageing or some such. I remember hearing in biology class
that they had kept a heart alive for some number of years after the
owner had perished.
        I concur "a most interesting person".

                                                        --Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel           [email-masked], [email-masked]
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 26 Apr 1994 12:45:38 -0400
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: U.S.S. Buckley

        My wife picked up a Revell model kit of the U.S.S. Buckley at a
yard sale over the weekend for me (for $0.25, she figured she couldn't
go wrong!).  I justed flipped through the instructions and the story
included was pretty interesting.  I hope others can add to it.  I've
reprinted the entire text below:

        Not since the days of of Stephen Decatur, had the order, "Stand
by to repel boarders" echoed over the decks of an American warship, but
on May 6, 1944, the astounded sailors of the U.S.S. Buckley heard just
such an order.  It turned out to be one of the outstanding incidents of
World War II.

        Task Group 21.11, led by the new escort carrier Block Island, and
including four 24 knot DEs, the Buckley among them, was working in the
Cape Verdes area.  A German wolfpack had been reported in the vicinity,
and it was Task Group 21.11's duty to track it down.

        At 0216 on the morning of May 6th, the Buckley made contact with
a Nazi submarine running on the surface.  The sub made no effort to evade
the attacking DE, and shortly thereafter at a range of 2,200 yards, the
Buckley let go a salvo, which was returned immediately by the U-boat.  For
a short time, the two vessels ran along side by side, firing salvo after
salvo.  At this point, Lieutenant Commander B. M. Abel ordered the helmsman
to throw the helm hard over, and Buckley rammed the U-66.  The two ships
were locked together, and the sailors on the sub poured out of the hatches
and conning tower with a shower of small arms and rifle fire.  The
surprised seamen on the Buckley were again startled to see some of the
Nazi sailors clambering over the bow.  Hand-to-hand fighting on the deck
continued, with any sort of loose odds and ends used for ammunition.
Coffee cups, shell cases, and fists became the order of the day.

        Finally, hand grenades lobbed from the Buckley's deck found their
marks in the conning tower and hatch of the U-66, and the ensuing damage
was enough to send her once and for all to the well known locker of Davey
Jones.

        The Buckley was commissioned April 30, 1943, and has an overall
length of 306 feet, and a beam of 37 feet.  When originally launched, she
had three 3-inch guns, two 40mm., and eight 20mm. anti-aircraft guns.
Her power was developed by turbo-electric engines, and her fuel was oil.
At her maximum speed of 24 knots, 12,000 shaft horsepower was used.
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
I thought you said three Shermans.  Those
nuts have brought half the army with them.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Apr 1994 10:35:50 -0400
From:    Peter Smith <[email-masked]>
Subject: TAC: Graf Spee (Was: Tirpitz)

Joe Pohlmann <[email-masked]> writes:
...
>         With regards to speed, although the Graf Spee was designed from
> a cruiser's hull, the heavy turrets caused the Graf Spee to have very poor
> acceleration and top speed (around 24 knots).  This was no match for the
> cruisers of the RN, which most often had top speeds of 30-32 knots and
> much better acceleration.

With regard to accelleration, the diesel-powered Graf Spee did have a
partial advantage over steam-powered cruisers.  Under normal cruising
conditions, it took some time to bring all the boilers of a steam ship up
to full pressure where they could generate full power.  The Graf Spee's
diesels, on the other hand, could be brought from cruising to full power
more or less immediately.  It has been speculated that despite its ultimate
speed disadvantage due to smaller engineering plant and foul bottom, the
Graf Spee had a decent chance to evade HMS Norfolk et al had Ludendorf
acted immediately upon sighting them.
--
Peter Smith -- Data General Corp., Westboro, MA
[email-masked] (preferred) or [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Apr 1994 11:00:47 +0000
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Stalag Luft III

For Info on this subject, try book _Stalag Luft III_ by Arthur A. Durand.
I'm only half way through it right now (as I am with about 50 books at
the moment) but it's pretty good and does have a tom/dick/harry diagram.
hope this helps,
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 12:17:08 EST
From:    Aldo <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRV:French diplomatic blunders

I read in the NY Times a few weeks ago a story which seems appropriate to
share at this time:
During the Kennedy administration, Charles de Gaulle demanded that all
American troops be removed from France immediately. To this, secretary of
state Dean Rusk replied: "Oh, would you like us to exhume the bodies from
the cemetaries too?"
Just an interesting anecdote.

The above sounds like it might be interesting, do you still have the
date?

Thank you

Aldo

Aldo M. Hubert
                                           [email-masked]
University of North Carolina at Greensboro
800 Oakland Ave.
Greensboro NC 27412

Sic Friatur Crustum Dulce

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Apr 1994 11:57:38 CDT
From:    Robert Hohlt <[email-masked]>
Subject: Lindbergh

TO Sidney W. Kitchel, John E. Kollar, Sidney Allinson
and to you all regarding Mr. Lindbergh, I forget the name of the recent
show which told of his dealings with the Germans but didn't it state
he was convinced that Germany would be be unstoppable in the war to
come and that we would be best advised to keep our noses out of the
European war?

Didn't it also say he (Lindbergh) predicted an early demise of
Great Britan?  It also stated that he very much believed (paranoid about)
that our main concern should be the "Yellow Peril".  I don't know whether
or not he meant the Japanese only or all Asian peoples.  At any rate
with his attitudes the Pacific was probably the best place for him to
collect his P-38 combat performance information.

A bit of irony, at the end of his life, he moved to Maui, Hawaii.
He died and is bured there on Maui.  A state a good bit of which is
owned by the Japanese.  ;-).

Robert Hohlt, Jr.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Apr 1994 08:05:05 -0500
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Japanese Underground?

In message World War II Discussion List writes:
> >
> > Hello, Johannes!
> >
> > > It is well known that in Germany there was an underground movement trying
> > > to
> > > depose Hitler. Was there any underground to speak of in Japan? It would
> > > be
> > > incredible to conclude that all Japanese supported their warlords
> > > absolutely. So, who were the Japanese dissidents and what happened to
> > > them?
> >
> >     Perhaps so in Europe and to the Western mind. However, I think
> > there was no underground opposition group to the policy makers in
> > Japan. I can't vouch for this, but given the nature of the Oriental
> > mind, I would think that the Japanese Gov't could completely rely on
> > the support of the Japanese people. After all, they were taught to
> > obey authority, particularly that of the state.
>
> That's incorrect.  There was an opposition to the Japanese wartime
> government,
> although it was weak and fragmented.
>
> Considerable numbers of intellectuals and political liberals were prosecuted
> under the "thought crimes" legislation.

I think a distinction of terms is probably needed.

The "Underground" (capital U) is traditionally a military or paramilitary
organization (usually well organized) that has as its purpose the liberation
of their lands from that of an invading or opposing occupation force or
regime.  The functions of the Underground are insurgency, disruption of
routine, damage to infastructure, sabotage, etc.  Nine times out of ten, the
Underground is working with another force intent on aiding its liberation.

This is radically different (though sometimes only in grey terms) from a
political opposition group, even if that group has been forced "underground"
(lower case u) by persecution and prosecution.

The U.S. has several "opposition parties," such as the Republicans, Democrats,
Libertarians, etc.  Some parties (well organized or not) may attempt to
disrupt the political system or public complacency enough to advance their
own ideals, but i don't recall many instances where the Republicans mined a
bridge that was frequented by Democrats (although I wonder if I'll hear that
from Ted someday... :-) :-).

In any case, I think a distinction of terms, or at least a rough definition
seems to be in order here so that the question can be properly answered.

Since my father spent more than six years within the Underground in Europe,
I know something (not nearly enough!) as to the role of the Underground
there.  There was no political agenda at all -- the whole purpose was to
effect and aid in the ejection of an unwanted system forced upon them.

While some political systems may choose extreme measures to aid their cause
(the recent assassination in Mexico is an example), this isn't the same as
what is being asked about.

Another obvious difference between the Underground and an underground political
opposition is what happens when you actually "win".  The Underground disbands.
No political opposition party would willingly and happily cease to exist once
they have reached their goals and objectives.

Was there an Underground in Japan?  Basically, "no."  Was there an opposition
in Japan?  Absolutely.  Are some of these activities forced "underground" by
the system they are objecting to?  Yes.  Was there outside influence to try
and undermine the political system?  I can't think of a place where this
hasn't been happening in some form or another for centuries.

--
Robert J. Granvin                                             [email-masked]
University of Minnesota, School of Statistics
         "I'm my father?  I'm my mother?  I'm chipped beef on toast?"

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Apr 1994 12:56:34 CDT
From:    Robert Hohlt <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: U.S.S. Buckley

Isn't this why United States Navy ships of any size
(maybe not patrol craft or submarines?), keep a small
contingent of Marines aboard?

Robert Hohlt, Jr.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Apr 1994 15:24:17 -0400
From:    Kevin Kamphaus <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Tirpitz

The are a couple of book on the subject of Stalag Luft III, "Stalag Luft
III" and "The Longest Tunnel" both of which have drawings showing the layout
of the tunnels etc.

Kevin Kamphaus

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Apr 1994 16:41:07 -0400
From:    Emery Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: Otto Skorzeny

I'm sorry to bring this up again, but my mail system died over the
weekend, shortly after I sent the following message.  Did someone reply?

>From eford Fri Apr 22 12:01:31 1994
>To: [email-masked]
>Subject: Otto Skorzeny

>       He seems like he must have been quite a colorful character.
>Can somebody provide me with some detail about the actions he was involved
>in?  I know amongst his numerous exploits he led a daring raid to recover
>Mussolini.  Wasn't he also the Commander of the German 150th Brigade during
>the Battle of the Bulge that comprised of German Soldiers in U.S. uniforms
>that spoke a minimal amount of English?  How successful was their infiltration?
>       Thanks,
>               --Emery

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Apr 1994 16:51:11 -0400
From:    Emery Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: ULTRA in BARAROSSA

        To what extent did Britain and the US pass on the ULTRA radio intercept
intel to the Soviets?  Did Stalin even know that they possessed this?  Also,
what kind of SIGINT (Signal Intelligence) did the Soviets possess?
        I know they were woefully deficient of adequate numbers of radios
until the last couple of years in the war.  In fact, I read somewhere that
their aircraft lacked radios and had to rely on hand signals to
communicate with other squadron aircraft.  Also, I read that a division
would only have one radio.  Anybody know anything more about this?
        (I believe the lack of radio information I'm referring to came
in the designer notes of the wargame VELIKYE LUKI by 360 Pacific)
        Thanks,
                --Emery

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Apr 1994 18:00:50 EST
From:    "CARL WERNKE (TCWERNC@VCCSCENT)" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Nazi Bombers

 X-TO: [email-masked] edu
 TO: Multiple recipients of list WWII-L ([email-masked])

 Christopher, Emery, Emmanuel, Ken, and all,

 Recent posts stated:
 > Japanese 76kg firebombs, dropped by a Yokosuka E14Y 'Glen' reconaissance
 > aircraft for submarines.

 The Yokosuka E14Y, 'Glen', Navy TYpe 0 small reconnaissance seaplane was an
 excellent aircraft for this type of mission. Designed by Mitsuo Yamada of the
 Dai-Ichi Kaigun Koku Gijitsusho (First Naval Air Technical Arsenal) to meet
 the requirements of a 12-Shi specification calling for a small submarine-borne
 reconnaissance seaplane, the E14Y1 became the only enemy aircraft to drop
 bombs on the American mainland when an aircraft of this type, flown by
 Warrant Officer Fujita operating from the submarine I-25, dropped four 76kg
 phosphorus bombs in two attacks along the wooded Oregon coast.

 Powered by a 340 hp Hitashi Tempu 12 nine-cylinder air-cooled radial engine,
 the prototype E14Y1 was completed in 1939 at Yokosuka, and comparative trials
 with the Watanabe E14W1, designed to meet the same 12-Shi specification, took
place soon after. Designed to be carried in a watertight hangar, the E14Y1
 could easily be dismantled for storage aboard the submarine. For this purpose
 the twin floats and supporting struts were used.

 Material obtained from *Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War*, by
 F.J.Francillion, 1979.

 Carl Wernke
 [email-masked]

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 26 Apr 1994 to 27 Apr 1994
*************************************************