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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 1 Apr 1994 to 2 Apr 1994
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There are 6 messages totalling 148 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. INF: Environmental effects of WWII
  2. Weap: B-17 vs B-24
  3. INF: USAAF 30 MAR 44
  4. Hs-117
  5. Spain's Franco (compared with Hitler/Muss.):  Good Guy? (2)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 1 Apr 1994 21:49:04 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@CCLINK.LOGICON.COM>
Subject: Re: INF: Environmental effects of WWII

Interesting thing, this idea of "total war".  Everything else takes a
back seat.  I can't even BEGIN to imagine the political repercussions
of attacking an oil tanker in this day of "environmentalism" (if
that's a word).  Perhaps "environmentality".

Don't forget though that today's tankers are *orders of magnitude*
larger than those used then.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
PO Box 1420
Dahlgren, VA 22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 2 Apr 1994 06:03:59 -0500
From:    Daniel Ford <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Weap: B-17 vs B-24

On Fri, 1 Apr 1994, DAVID WILMA 415-744-2485 wrote:

>           could.  The selection of the Liberator for the lion's share of
>           the work in the Pacific may be instructive.  I don't recall ever
>           hearing the exact reasons for this.  Performance?  Numbers?
>
At least at the beginning, the Pacific Theater got the inferior and older
weapons to hold the line while the major war effort was pressed against
Germany.

What about rough-field capability? That was one reason the B-25 replaced
the B-26 in the Pacific in 1943.

Regards - Dan Ford   <e-mail: dan.ford@unh.edu>
                     <postal: 433 Bay Road, Durham NH 03824 USA>
                     <voice or fax: +1-603-868-5850>

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 2 Apr 1994 10:04:31 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: INF: USAAF 30 MAR 44

Hello, Jim!

Glad to oblige, although I am certain that others will answer this.

>  Ww> Germany; they claim 1-0-0 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 1-0-2 on
>
> Could someone brief me as to how we read the claim counts, please?

    1-0-0 means one shot down (verified), 1st 0 means no probables,
and the 2nd 0 means none damaged. Thus 1-0-2 means that one was
definitely shot down, no probably shot-down aircraft and 2 were
damaged. Damaged in the sense that in all likelihood they got back to
base.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 2 Apr 1994 11:51:24 EST
From:    S214000 <S214@NMUMUS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Hs-117

Hello Mr. Moore,
I just read your post about the Hs-239 and was wondering if you could
send me the post about the Hs-117. I don't think I saw that one. If you
have anymore of such posts in the future I'd very much like to see them
as my interest in Military history includes aviation. Thank you.
Mike Wilson<S214@NMUMUS.bitnet>

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 2 Apr 1994 17:04:39 -0600
From:    mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: Spain's Franco (compared with Hitler/Muss.):  Good Guy?

Hitler was a former corporal (who got his much-beloved Iron
  Cross only thanks to the fair-mindedness and compassion of a
  Jewish-German officer, I understand) and Mussolini had no
  military experience at all (I believe).

Spain's fascist leader, Francisco Franco, was a professional
  army officer -- a colonel when he began his takeover/struggle?

Overall, Franco seems to have been a much more judicious leader.
  Did his professional military background make him MORE cautious
  about the risks of military adventuring?

Other than Guernica, were the Spanish fascists any worse than the
  Republicans, in regard to atrocities during the Spanish Civil War?

Franco seemed to begin his takeover because of the social problems/
  disintegration and corruption of Spain.  Considering how he paved
  the way to the Spanish democracy we seem to have now, didn't his
  military takeover/junta HELP Spain?  He seems to have had a higher
  sense of duty -- loyalty -- than the officer corps of Germany and
  Italy  who (rather than getting involved politically/realistically)
  allowed their countries to fall into the hands of infinitely less
  responsible politicians like Hitler and Mussolini.

(Of course, once Hitler and Mussolini got into power, their control
  of their media made their dictatorships irreversible.  Media
  dictatorships indeed!)

Why has Franco gotten such "bad press," considering the beneficial
  outcome of his leadership?

Lou Coatney, Western Illinois University Library ('til 30Jun94)

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 2 Apr 1994 20:00:07 -0800
From:    "Office TH325, Extension 3566" <RIEGSECKER@UPS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spain's Franco (compared with Hitler/Muss.):  Good Guy?

>coatneyl@ccmail.wiu.bgu.edu

>Hitler was a former corporal (who got his much-beloved Iron
>  Cross only thanks to the fair-mindedness and compassion of a
>  Jewish-German officer, I understand) and Mussolini had no
>  military experience at all (I believe).
>

Robert Leckie in "Delivered From Evil" says that Mussolini saw 17 months
of action in the Alps during WWI, first as a private and later as a
corporal.  He was injured in some kind of an accident (my sources
disagree on what).

John Riegsecker
Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
University of Puget Sound

riegsecker@ups.edu

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 1 Apr 1994 to 2 Apr 1994
***********************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 2 Apr 1994 to 3 Apr 1994
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There are 9 messages totalling 216 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. SPECULATION: No WWII for USA without Pearl Harbor? (3)
  2. Weap: B-17 vs B-24
  3. Re-2-: AF Guardian
  4. D-DAY: French Scandal
  5. Jets (3)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 3 Apr 1994 07:09:48 EST
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor,
         Marist Coll" <JZML@MARISTB.BITNET>
Subject: SPECULATION: No WWII for USA without Pearl Harbor?

My wife's supervisor, hearing of the WWII list but without access
to the Internet, has asked me to post this question: "If the Japanese
had not attacked Pearl Harbor, but went after the Dutch West Indies and
Malaysia instead (but not the Philippines) would the US have still
entered the war, and if so, when?"
IMHO FDR would have found a way to enter the war at some point
because of his relationship to Winston Churchill and because Hitler's
continued aggression in Europe would have made FDR increasing concerned.
What is your opinion?

Jonah Triebwasser
Adjunct Instructor
Marist College
Dyson Building (Adult Education)
Poughkeepsie, New York12601
Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
E-Mail: jzml@maristb.marist.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 3 Apr 1994 12:03:21 EST
From:    Ingalls Steven MAJ <is8206@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Weap: B-17 vs B-24

On 1 April, David Wilma wrote...

>          In a way the only people who may be entitled to this discussion
>          are the crews who flew the Liberator and the Fort.

In a way you're right.  In a way you're also wrong.  Anyone with anything
whatsoever to say about this has as much right as anyone else.  One's
experience with the aircraft (personal or technical) will likely bear out where
that comment rates on the accuracy or importance scale.

I'm interested in someone providing me a -1 or other technical document so I
can calculate the stability of the aircraft and use those numbers as examples
in the aircraft performance and stability courses I teach cadets here at West
Point.  Any takers?  I'll return the books as soon as I'm done.  What would
help more are 3-Views, Engine, and Propeller Data, if available.

As for performance, I can certainly calculate the theoretical values, albeit
they will differ somewhat from the -1 (-10 for us Army folks nowadays).  There
always seems to be a little fudge in most aircraft performance charts.

MAJ Stephen Ingalls
USMA, West Point
FLY ARMY!

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 3 Apr 1994 14:14:24 EST
From:    S214000 <S214@NMUMUS.BITNET>
Subject: Re-2-: AF Guardian

Hello everyone,
Happy Easter!! I really enjoyed the list of early jets the
Emmanual(sp?)posted, But I thought the Grumman AF Guardian aircraft were
recips. It'sbeen awhile since I read about these planes, and my
reference material is at home, so I'm working from memory.
Thanks, again
Mike Wilson<S214@NMUMUS.bitnet>
Northern Michigan University

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 3 Apr 1994 14:31:54 -0700
From:    Eric Fenster <efenster@IGC.APC.ORG>
Subject: D-DAY: French Scandal

Today the French "requisitioned" two hotels in Normandy for
the purpose of housing heads of state and high French government
officials during the D-Day commemoration.

The problem is that the rooms had been reserved for more than a
year by Canadian veterans who made the landing in 1944.  So what
happened?  The Canadians were told they could just go elsewhere!

All the French TV stations have been covering this scandal.  The
heros, the ones who risked their lives to save the country are
kicked out by the arrogance of the current government which is
making its plans at the last minute and expects everybody to
kowtow to it.

The mayor of Deauville and the hotel management promise the
Canadians will be taken in to private homes, but it doesn't
eliminate the insult that the subjects of the commemoration
are treated this way.

The people who did this:

Ministere des Affaires Etrangeres
37, Quai d'Orsay
75007 Paris FRANCE

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 3 Apr 1994 12:51:54 -0500
From:    Stan Koper <skoper@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: SPECULATION: No WWII for USA without Pearl Harbor?

> My wife's supervisor, hearing of the WWII list but without access
> to the Internet, has asked me to post this question: "If the Japanese
> had not attacked Pearl Harbor, but went after the Dutch West Indies and
> Malaysia instead (but not the Philippines) would the US have still
> entered the war, and if so, when?"

>From what I've read elsewhere regarding lack of preparedness for
Pearl Harbor, the U.S. "expected" a war with Japan in the spring
of 1942, but it's not clear how they expected a state of war to occur.

Since Roosevelt didn't "manufacture" an event, perhaps he and
his advisers expected to reach some point of confrontation over
the Japanese elsewhere.  Or maybe they figured they'd have to
go to Congress and ask for a declaration of war.

But did the U.S. have some sort of mutual defense treaty with
the Dutch, or with the British, vis-a-vis the Southwest Pacific
area?

Stan Koper
skoper@netcom.com
         "Never Let A Machine Know You're In A Hurry"
      This message brought to you by uqwk 1.7 and Yarn 0.60

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 3 Apr 1994 18:41:06 -0400
From:    Daniel Ford <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>
Subject: Re: SPECULATION: No WWII for USA without Pearl Harbor?

> > to the Internet, has asked me to post this question: "If the Japanese
> > had not attacked Pearl Harbor, but went after the Dutch West Indies and
> > Malaysia instead (but not the Philippines) would the US have still
> > entered the war, and if so, when?"
>
But does the question make sense? The Japanese were golden as long as
they stuck to China and Indochina, but there was no way they could invade
Malaya without a shooting war with British forces, or the Dutch Indies
without a shooting war with the Dutch colonial government that would
bring in the British. (And it was the Indies that the Japanese needed
above all else, for their oil fields.)

Looking at the map, one understands how risky war would have been in
Malaya and the Indies with a huge American presence in the Philippines.
Just as northern Indochina served as an unsinkable aircraft carrier for
the Japanese in their efforts to subdue the Chinese government, so would
the Phillipines have served as an unsinkable aircraft carrier for the
British and Dutch. And no question that we would have provided that sort
of assistance, just as we were assisting Britain at the time.

So I think that the Japanese options were either: 1) withdraw from
Indochina and from mainland China, or 2) destroy the European forces in
Southeast Asia, prevent the Americans from coming to their defense, and
stoke up on Indonesian oil.

Put another way, the alternatives were natioanl humilation or a suicidal
war. How many governments would have opted for humiliation?

Cheers - Dan Ford   <e-mail: dan.ford@unh.edu>
                    <postal: 433 Bay Road, Durham NH 03824 USA>
                    <voice/fax: +1-603-868-5850>

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 3 Apr 1994 16:49:24 -0600
From:    Tony Schuler <SCHULERE@UWSTOUT.EDU>
Subject: Jets

WWII List,

The jet aircraft discussion has been most fascinating. The only thing
missing from the lists of jet aircraft that would interest me is the
top speed of the aircraft, and if they went into production.

Another interest would be that of helicopters. I believe that they were
developed during the war, but I am not sure. Did anyone use them in their
airforce? Were they used in any combat operations? Does anyone have a similar
list of helicopters that were displayed on the jets?

Thanks,

Tony Schuler
Schulere@uwstout.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 3 Apr 1994 16:19:57 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Jets

Helicopters...
        The most widespread use of helicopters during WW2 was in
Burma. Choppers there were used mainly for medical evacuation of
British casualties from jungle clearings.
Most of the these early medecvac helicopter pilots were American.
One well-known (at the time) pilot on this duty was the ex-child
movie star, Jackie Cooper.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 3 Apr 1994 16:40:12 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Jets

Another thought on helicopters in WW2...
        As well as the US made early helicopters, I think the Germans
also had a chopper then. Called the 'Kolibri', as I recall (which
means something like 'hummingbird'.)

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 2 Apr 1994 to 3 Apr 1994
***********************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 3 Apr 1994 to 4 Apr 1994
To: Recipients of WWII-L digests <WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Status: O

There are 21 messages totalling 876 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. SPECULATION: No WWII for USA without Pearl Harbor? (3)
  2. INF: USAAF 4 APR 44
  3. D-DAY: French Scandal
  4. Spain's Franco (compared with Hitler/Muss.):  Good Guy?
  5. WEAP:  B-17 vs B-24 performance
  6. POL: Unconditional Surrender (Fwd)
  7. B-17 vs. B-24
  8. WEAP: Helicopters in WWII (2)
  9. Re[2]: Weap: B-17 vs B-24 (4)
 10. Re[3]: Weap: B-17 vs B-24 (2)
 11. WEAP: Early Jets
 12. Weap: B-17 vs B-24
 13. Hs-293
 14. D-DAY

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 3 Apr 1994 10:14:37 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: SPECULATION: No WWII for USA without Pearl Harbor?

>
> My wife's supervisor, hearing of the WWII list but without access
> to the Internet, has asked me to post this question: "If the Japanese
> had not attacked Pearl Harbor, but went after the Dutch West Indies and
> Malaysia instead (but not the Philippines) would the US have still
> entered the war, and if so, when?"
> IMHO FDR would have found a way to enter the war at some point
> because of his relationship to Winston Churchill and because Hitler's
> continued aggression in Europe would have made FDR increasing concerned.
> What is your opinion?

I generally agree.  It would have been tough for FDR.  Even as things happened,
were it not for Hitler's declaration of war against the United States, we
might NOT have fought Germany, even AFTER Pearl Harbor.  A similar situation
prevailed between Japan and the Soviet Union until shortly before the dropping
of the atomic bombs.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Apr 1994 07:07:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: INF: USAAF 4 APR 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
TUESDAY, 4 APRIL 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ZONE OF INTERIOR: HQ Twentieth Air Force is activated in Washington, DC.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 120+ fighter-bombers and 4 B-25s
hit rail lines, storage areas and Japanese held villages around Mogaung and
Myitkyina and support ground forces near Kamaing and Myitkyina; during the
night of 4/5 Apr, 14 B-24s bomb the Moulmein railroad yards and jetties and
hit a Japanese HQ nearby at Nagorn Sawarn; and 25 P-51s and P-38s attack
Aungban and Anisakan Airfields.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): P-38s on armed reconnaissance strafe and
destroy 2 big fuel dumps, 12 fuel trucks, and 15-20 troops in the Wan Mong
Kang, Burma area.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Units arriving in England from the
US: HQ 339th Fighter Group at Fowlmere; and 836th, 837th, 838th and 839th
Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), 487th Bombardment Group, at Lavenham with
B-24s (first mission is 7 May).

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Units arriving in England from the
US: HQ 373d Fighter Group and 410th Fighter Squadron at Woodchurch with P-47s
(first mission is 8 May); HQ 404th Fighter-Bomber Group at Winkton; HQ 406th
Fighter-Bomber Group at Ashford; HQ 410th Bombardment Group (Light) and
644th, 645th, 646th and 647th Bombardment Squadrons (Light) at Birch with
A-20s (first mission is 4 May); and 393d and 394th Fighter Squadrons, 367th
Fighter Group, at Stony Cross with P-38s (first mission is 9 May).

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 300+ B-17s and B-24s attack
Bucharest, Rumania; both hit marshalling yards and the B-24s also hit an air
depot; fighters fly nearly 120 sorties in support of the mission; between 150
and 200 enemy fighters attack the bombers, shooting down 10; the bombers and
escorts claim 50+ aircraft destroyed in combat.
  309th Fighter Squadron, 31st Fighter Group, moves from Castel Volturno to
San Severo, Italy with P-51s.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium bomber missions
are aborted due to weather but light bombers manage to bomb an ammunition
dump and fighter-bombers bomb Terracina and Formia, attack a bridge and
several vehicles during armed reconnaissance of the Rome-Orte area, bomb Itri
and Fondi, hit numerous gun positions, a railway station, a bivouac area, and
a vehicle concentration, and attack targets of opportunity between Atina and
Cassino.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-24s, flying out of the
Gilbert Islands, bomb Truk Atoll during the night. B-25s, from Abemama Island
and Tarawa Atoll, followup during the day with raids on Ponape Island, and
Jaluit and Maloelap Atolls

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On Bougainville Island, 12
P-40s hit a barge hideout in Gazelle Harbor; 10 B-25s (rained out of Rabaul,
New Britain Island) bomb Buka Airfield on Buka Island, 23 P-39s hit the
Aitara area, and 11 P-40s bomb the Mamaregu barge hideout; 24 P-38s pound
Mamagata, Dio Dio, and the Miwo River area; and ground support missions along
Empress Augusta Bay are carried out by a variety of fighters.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 50+ B-24s
pound the Wewak area; and 12 P-39s hit villages, bridges and wooded areas
along the coast from Cape Gourdon to Bogia.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Apr 1994 04:38:47 -0700
From:    Eric Fenster <efenster@IGC.APC.ORG>
Subject: Re: D-DAY: French Scandal

First, two corrections:

The British veterans were affected by the requisitions as well as
the Canadians.

The reservations were made up to three years ago.

The British were pretty furious and a boycott of the ceremonies.
seemed possible.
Of course there was no interest in being scattered in different
houses. They wanted to be with their comrades-in-arms of 50 years
ago.

Second, the French Foreign Ministry, thoroughly embarrassed by
the publicity, set a spokesman before the TV cameras today to
lie--denying there was ever any requisition or "obligatory"
cancellation of the reservations.  So, they couldn't own up
to their mistake, but the veterans will keep their rooms at
the hotels and the bigshots (the "liberated") will be put in
hotels in Paris.

(What are they doing "requisitioning" in peacetime anyway?)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Apr 1994 07:51:52 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Spain's Franco (compared with Hitler/Muss.):  Good Guy?

On Sat, 2 Apr 1994 17:04:39 -0600 <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU> said:
>Other than Guernica, were the Spanish fascists any worse than the
>  Republicans, in regard to atrocities during the Spanish Civil War?

Yes, if for no other reason than they wound up in control of, and purging,
the entire country.  I don't know how instructive an atrocity-by-atrocity
account would be; I am sure someone has put one together by now.

>Franco seemed to begin his takeover because of the social problems/
>  disintegration and corruption of Spain.  Considering how he paved
>  the way to the Spanish democracy we seem to have now, didn't his
>  military takeover/junta HELP Spain?

I don't agree with this.  Spain was in no sense disintegrating before Franco's
pronunciamento; Franco & the right simply couldn't stomach Spanish democracy
nor even a centrist government taking power.  Originally, Franco expected the
Republic to roll over as had every other government of Spain when an army
officer "pronounced"; it did, in fact, but the real shocker was that elements
ranging from urban bourgeoisie with a centrist outlook all the way to the
Anarcho-Syndicalists on the left finally got sick and tired of these episodes
and took up arms.

As for "paving the way" for Spanish democracy--you must surely be speaking
tongue in cheek.  Franco was an unchecked dictator for over 40 years; he did
*nothing* to "pave the way" for democracy except to die.  One could with
equal logic claim that Brezhnev or even Stalin paved the way for Russian
democracy, or Hitler for German.

>Why has Franco gotten such "bad press," considering the beneficial
>  outcome of his leadership?

Why has Hitler gotten such "bad press"--after all, he put Germans to work,
didn't he?  And poor old Mussolini made the trains run on time--we shouldn't
criticize him too severely, should we?

My library is at home, and my research projects buried in some forgotten
trunk, but I can suggest one well-respected volume on modern Spanish history
off the top of my head:  =The Spanish Labyrinth=, by Brennan (if memory has
not entirely failed).  I believe you will not find any evidence for the
suggestion that Franco paved the way for democracy in Spain in that volume.

ken koester
maint2@ers.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Apr 1994 08:46:04 -0500
From:    "Sidney W. Kitchel" <kitchel@OCTOPUS.DPSI.COM>
Subject: Re: SPECULATION: No WWII for USA without Pearl Harbor?

Stan Koper writes:
|->But did the U.S. have some sort of mutual defense treaty with
|->the Dutch, or with the British, vis-a-vis the Southwest Pacific
|->area?

        There was a so-called ABCD alliance. If the Japanese had
chosen to only attack Malaysia or the Dutch East Indies, it would have
come into effect. However, lost here at the office I don't know what
the provision were.
        I agree with the folks saying that the Japanese knew they
could not leave the Phillipines or, if they'd read their Hector
Bywater, Guam unattended to. I think that the U.S. expected these
assets to be attacked. There was more surprise in a simultaneous
attack on the Pacific Fleet while at Pearl.
                                                        --Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel           kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Apr 1994 09:05:31 -0400
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: WEAP:  B-17 vs B-24 performance

Regarding the questions about the choice of aircraft in the Pacific...

The B-24, as pointed out earlier, was a later design than the B-17.
The Liberator had a slightly higher service ceiling, faster cruise
speed, and larger payload.  The difference in cruising speed (only
about 5-10 mph more than the Fortress) was sufficient to cause
problems in maintaining defensive formations when operating together,
prompting the 8th AF to usually segregate them, even when attacking
the same target.

The B-17 was used in the Pacific theater early in the war, but was
supplanted by the B-24 not because the Liberator was the inferior,
but more correctly the reverse; the B-24 had a longer range, allowing
it to reach targets beyond the reach of the Fortress.

Final production totals for the two aircraft were about 12,700 for the
B-17 and almost 18,000 for the B-24.  I believe the B-24 was produced
in larger numbers than any other American-built aircraft in WWII.

But I still like the B-17 best!  :-)

Dennis E. Sparks
sparks@caer.uky.edu
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Apr 1994 10:13:14 -0400
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: POL: Unconditional Surrender (Fwd)

I received this over the weekend.  Please respond to Prof. Lederberg directly
or Cc: him into the discussion.  (I wouldn't mind hearing what others have to
say about the topic as well.)  -- Joe

 Subject: World War II: Unconditional Surrender
 Reply-To: lederberg@rockvax.ROCKEFELLER.EDU (J. Lederberg)
 Date: Sat, 02 Apr 94 18:45:09 EST
 From: Joshua Lederberg <jsl@rockvax.ROCKEFELLER.EDU>

> I noted the following on a listserver list (U/Buffalo):
> * WWII-L is a list dedicated to the discussion of World War II.
> * Tactical, strategic, techological, and political discussions are,
> * in general, welcome.
>
> I have only an amateur interest, and have not subscribed.  However,
> since the event 50+ years ago, I've been intrigued by how FDR
> came to the policy of Unconditional Surrender, enunciated at
> Casablanca -- and by what it may have cost us in undercutting
> the potential underground resistance to Hitler.  I have read
> Peter Hofmann and Kecskemeti; but would be interested to know
> of any more recent analysis or discussion.     Thank you.
>
> Prof. Joshua Lederberg
> Suite 400 (Founders Hall)
> The Rockefeller University
> 1230 York Avenue
> New York, NY   10021-6399

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Apr 1994 10:19:14 -0400
From:    Ron Babuka <wrb1@CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: B-17 vs. B-24

If you ever get a chance to see a B-17 and a B-24 together (and to do that
all you have to do is attend the 1994 Wings of Eagle airshow in Batavia New
York this August <Shamless Plug...>) - just examine the wings of both and
you will have a clear understanding of why the Liberator was able to
outperform the B-17.  The B-24 used a laminar-flow wing called the "Davis
Wing"  - if you compare the wing cord of the Liberator to the Fortress you
would swear that the Fortress's wing is twice as thick.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka                                         National Warplane Museum
Cornell University                                 Geneseo, New York
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Apr 1994 09:23:28 EST
From:    Jorge Merino <jmerino@VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject: WEAP: Helicopters in WWII

Hello,

The german Flettner factory was developing some helicopters before and during
WWII. One of the most advanced of its time was the Kolibri (I don't remember
the designation). Before WWII, there were also some Focke-Achgelis helicopter
designs. One of them was a twin-rotor helicopter.

I think US Bell 47 and Hiller helicopters were first flown during WWII. I
will try to find more information at home.

Don't forget the autogyros. As I remember, some Cierva and Avro models have
operated during WWII.

Have a nice day,

Jorge

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Apr 1994 09:05:05 PST
From:    "Jones, Scott T." <sjones@CCLINK.LOGICON.COM>
Subject: Re[2]: Weap: B-17 vs B-24

     On 2 April, 1994 Dan Ford wrote regarding the B-17/B-24 debate:

     "At least at the beginning, the Pacific Theater got the inferior and
     older weapons to hold the line while the major war effort was pressed
     against Germany."

        Could anyone please explain this statement (Dan?). I would think
     that the United States would be more concerned for the safety of
     "Mainland America" than the well being of the Allies in Europe. Seeing
     as to how the West Coast was preparing for an invasion, I would think
     that the better equipment would go to them instead of Europe.

        I am not saying that the Allies in Europe were not important, far
     from it. I am merely pointing out that the PTO was "closer to home"
     than was the ETO and, as a result, would have SENSIBLY taken higher
     priority in the quality of weapons selection. The only point that I
     can think of which would explain this addresses the fact that we (the
     USA) were involved with the war in Europe prior to Pearl Harbor via
     the "Lend Lease" deals and such with Great Britain.

        Am I making sense or am I missing the boat completely?

     Scott Jones
     Sjones@LOGICON.COM

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Apr 1994 14:01:00 -0400
From:    DAVID WILMA 415-744-2485 <WILMA.DAVID@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV>
Subject: Re: SPECULATION: No WWII for USA without Pearl Harbor?

          FDR was ready for war in Europe and Pearl Harbor was definitely
          not in his plans.  If the Japanese had gone south without
          neutralizing the Pacific Fleet, I doubt very much if FDR would
          have taken on the Japanese AND the Germans.  This is supported by
          the "Europe First" policy and by the general focus of the world
          at that time on Europe.

          In other words, as brilliant as the Pearl Harbor attack was, The
          Japanese could have walked in and taken the Dutch East Indies
          (for the oil) and FDR would have protested vigourously.  In
          addition, FDR would have been robbed of a DAy of Infamy on which
          to base a declaration of war.

          IMHO, the Japanese were simply replacing a European colonial
          power with an Asian colonial power.  Maybe the last of the
          colonial wars.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Apr 1994 14:18:40 EDT
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <hb9388@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Weap: B-17 vs B-24

Scott,

In a nutshell, the answer to your question is that when FDR got with
Churchill to determine the overall course of strategy (with a LOT
of advice from George C. Marshall), they decided that the German
Armed Forces were a much greater threat than the Japanese (regardless
of the near panic surrounding a possible invasion of California).

When you look at the relative industrial strengths between the Japanese
and the Germans, as well as the performance of their forces in the field,
this becomes more evident.

In Dec 41, the Germans were at the gates of Moscow, and even though
the Russian army stopped the Germans that winter, there was a LOT
of uncertainty whether the Russians would survive the German offensive
in 1942.

The Japanese Navy was not threatening the lifeline to England with
her submarines.  The U-Boat fleet came pretty darn close to shutting
England down.

Hope this helps.

Barry

ALso, don't discount the fact that by Dec 41 FDR was aware that the
Germans were also working on the atomic bomb.


>     On 2 April, 1994 Dan Ford wrote regarding the B-17/B-24 debate:
>
>     "At least at the beginning, the Pacific Theater got the inferior and
>     older weapons to hold the line while the major war effort was pressed
>     against Germany."
>
>        Could anyone please explain this statement (Dan?). I would think
>     that the United States would be more concerned for the safety of
>     "Mainland America" than the well being of the Allies in Europe. Seeing
>     as to how the West Coast was preparing for an invasion, I would think
>     that the better equipment would go to them instead of Europe.
>
>        I am not saying that the Allies in Europe were not important, far
>     from it. I am merely pointing out that the PTO was "closer to home"
>     than was the ETO and, as a result, would have SENSIBLY taken higher
>     priority in the quality of weapons selection. The only point that I
>     can think of which would explain this addresses the fact that we (the
>     USA) were involved with the war in Europe prior to Pearl Harbor via
>     the "Lend Lease" deals and such with Great Britain.
>
>        Am I making sense or am I missing the boat completely?
>
>     Scott Jones
>     Sjones@LOGICON.COM

Barrett F. Lowe               RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, West Point  (e-mail:  hb9388%usma6@trotter.usma.edu)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Apr 1994 15:16:58 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Weap: B-17 vs B-24

Hello, Scott!

   Thanks for the post, and I would like to add my two cents' to this.


>      "At least at the beginning, the Pacific Theater got the inferior and
>      older weapons to hold the line while the major war effort was pressed
>      against Germany."

    I don't think it can be said that the Pacific Theater got the
inferior weapons on purpose, because that was all we had there at the
time in Pearl Harbor, Bataan, Corregidor, Wake Island, etc. You must
remember that supply to those areas took a long time because of
distance and availability. This country had not completely awakened to
the fact that the war that was to be fought required more modern
weaponry and such items were not generally available. Thus the
soldiers on those outposts had to really suffer with outdated
weapons and maps.

    Also, don't forget the cost-conscious Congress of the 1930's who
failed to give Marshall more of a budget. This, I think, had the
gravest consequences in what happened at the beginning of the war.
Such an expanded budget early-on would have allowed more money to be
spent on updated equipment, and so on.

>         Could anyone please explain this statement (Dan?). I would think
>      that the United States would be more concerned for the safety of
>      "Mainland America" than the well being of the Allies in Europe. Seeing
>      as to how the West Coast was preparing for an invasion, I would think
>      that the better equipment would go to them instead of Europe.

    Not really. It was correctly believed in Washington that the
Japanese represented the weaker of the two opponents, and, given the
distances involved and the technology required, which didn't exist at
the time, it would have been a physical impossiblity for the Japanese
to have invaded mainland America. Preparations for an invasion of the
mainland USA, I feel, were more to boost morale in those areas in
which the Japanese "might" threaten an invasion.

    Hitler was a "horse of a different character". He was militarily
the stronger and his agression had to be stopped, not only for
military purposes but especially for political reasons. Besides, we
didn't have to worry about recapturing England to gain a foothold for
a planned invasion of the European Continent, as would have been the
case to have invaded Japan. Geographically, militarily and
politically, our reasons for taking on Germany first were correct
from the beginning, despite the dark days this country faced in 1941-
early 1942.

>         I am not saying that the Allies in Europe were not important, far
>      from it. I am merely pointing out that the PTO was "closer to home"
>      than was the ETO and, as a result, would have SENSIBLY taken higher
>      priority in the quality of weapons selection. The only point that I
>      can think of which would explain this addresses the fact that we (the
>      USA) were involved with the war in Europe prior to Pearl Harbor via
>      the "Lend Lease" deals and such with Great Britain.

    Perhaps.

>         Am I making sense or am I missing the boat completely?

    No. Your questions are valid and completely logical.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Apr 1994 15:49:06 EDT
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor,
         Marist Coll" <JZML@MARISTB.BITNET>
Subject: Re[3]: Weap: B-17 vs B-24

>     On 2 April, 1994 Dan Ford wrote regarding the B-17/B-24 debate:
>
>     "At least at the beginning, the Pacific Theater got the inferior and
>     older weapons to hold the line while the major war effort was pressed
>     against Germany."
>
>        Could anyone please explain this statement (Dan?). I would think

Winston Churchill convinced FDR, and the US and UK top military brass
agreed, that the European Theatre of Operations was first in their think
ing, with the Pacific Theater a close but definite second. My source for
this is a book called "Churchill and the Generals" which is at home so
I do not have the author's name handy (not to be confused with
"Churchill's Generals" edited by John Keegan.) Regards-

Jonah Triebwasser
Adjunct Instructor
Marist College
Dyson Building (Adult Education)
Poughkeepsie, New York12601
Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
E-Mail: jzml@maristb.marist.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Apr 1994 22:01:23 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVSDS.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Early Jets

On Fri, 1 Apr 1994, Terry Moore wrote:

> One question about your update. How is it possible that the Lockheed
> P-80 was first flown in Germany in 1944? Is this the design from
> which our P-80 was derived and you are denoting that this design had
> its origins in Germany and was flown then?

Obviously a typing error, Terry. Forget it quickly :-)

Emmanuel

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Apr 1994 22:35:10 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVSDS.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: Weap: B-17 vs B-24

> On Fri, 1 Apr 1994, DAVID WILMA 415-744-2485 wrote:
>
> >           could.  The selection of the Liberator for the lion's share of
> >           the work in the Pacific may be instructive.  I don't recall ever
> >           hearing the exact reasons for this.  Performance?  Numbers?

Range. The B-24 had very long range and was favoured for naval patrol --
an effect of that slender wing. It probably was also important that the
B-24 had its best performance at a lower altitude than the B-17;  thus it
was better suitable for the Pacific than for Europe, were most of the
combat was at high altitude.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Apr 1994 14:17:30 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Weap: B-17 vs B-24

On Mon, 4 Apr 1994 09:05:05 PST Jones, Scott T. said:
>     On 2 April, 1994 Dan Ford wrote regarding the B-17/B-24 debate:
>
>     "At least at the beginning, the Pacific Theater got the inferior and
>     older weapons to hold the line while the major war effort was pressed
>     against Germany."
>
>        Could anyone please explain this statement (Dan?). I would think
>     that the United States would be more concerned for the safety of
>     "Mainland America" than the well being of the Allies in Europe. Seeing
>     as to how the West Coast was preparing for an invasion, I would think
>     that the better equipment would go to them instead of Europe.

Scott, early in the war the US decided that Europe would have top priority
over the Pacific--I recall a (possibly apocryphal) anecdote to the effect
of one of the planners spreading his fingers and saying 9 of them to Europe,
1 to the Pacific.  Although FDR was constrained politically from starting a
war until attacked, there is little doubt that he felt the US should be in
it, on the side of the British.  The Japanese attack & Hitler's declaration
of war gave him his chance.  The invasion scares weren't as effective
motivators because it was difficult to see how the Japanese could carry one
off across the whole Pacific.  Threats to Australia were more real, but
Australia is an awfully big place to try to conquer.

If you think about it, it was not necessary to commit large numbers of
ground troops to the Pacific war, compared to the European theater.
Planes & ships were more valuable, but range considerations minimized the
disadvantage of being behind in the air.  One could more successfully
fight a holding action in the Pacific, but Germany was on the doorstep of
Britain & deep in the Soviet Union & a more terrifying prospect as a whole.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Apr 1994 16:40:19 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hs-293

Hello, Emmanuel!

Great to hear from you again, and hope all is well with you.

> That is not correct. Roma was sunk by 'Fritz-X', a different kind of
> guided bomb; and the damage to the other listed warships is also usually
> attributed to Fritz-X. I think that the armour-penetrating warhead of
> Fritz-X was more dangerous to warships.

   That is certainly correct, and I knew that. I simply wrote you
what was contained in that book from which I derived the info. In
fact, I had corresponded with the fellow who had commanded that
bomber squadron responsible for sinking those vessels. His name was
Bernhard Jope.

> BTW, after all this talk about German guided weapons... Few people are
> aware that the USA also had a guided weapon program at that time. At least
> two were used operationally; GB-4 entered service in July 1944 and the
> 'Azon' bomb destroyed the Pyinmana bridge in Burma, in December 1944.

    Outside of you and one other, I think, that is the first I had
heard of our efforts in this area. Do you have more info on this that
could easily be posted?

    Thanks again.

    Terry



Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Apr 1994 16:44:43 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re[3]: Weap: B-17 vs B-24

Hello, Jonah!

See below.

> Winston Churchill convinced FDR, and the US and UK top military brass
> agreed, that the European Theatre of Operations was first in their think
> ing, with the Pacific Theater a close but definite second. My source for
> this is a book called "Churchill and the Generals" which is at home so
> I do not have the author's name handy (not to be confused with
> "Churchill's Generals" edited by John Keegan.) Regards-

    I would highly recommend General Albert C. Wedemeyer's book
"Wedemeyer Reports" for additional insight into that. Wedemeyer was
intimately involved with the planning of the various scenarios in the
1930's that came up with the recommendations to the Chief of Staff
and FDR as to our posture in the event of our involvement in a global
war. I can't think of the name of the plan it was called, but, like
you, I am not at home near my source. Anyway, I would highly
recommend that one for your consideration. Wedemeyer, BTW, knew
everyone. His book is filled with info on all sorts of people not
only here but abroad as well.

    Thanks for the post.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Apr 1994 16:37:41 CDT
From:    CMSgt Mike Bergman <bergman@AFNEWS.PA.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: D-DAY

mc killop writes
>
> Hello Mr. Bergman,
> I'm to bother you again, but this is a copy of the article I received
> from the World War II list. Do you have any more information about D-day
> and did this come from a different source than the Air Force news?
> I hope you had a happy Easter, and Thank you for your help.
> Mike Wilson<S214@NMUMUS.bitnet>

Following is the original post, from an Air Force News Service "features
package".  Hopefully, we'll see more products in the coming months.
The article you inquired about was written by a Air Force Reserve
Public Affairs assigned to the (joint) U.S. Strategic Command:


038.  A "MUST" win
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
038.  A "MUST" win

"This is a MUST. . . Destroy the enemy Air Force wherever you
find them, in the air, on the ground and in the factories."
           Dec. 27, 1943
           Gen. H.H. "Hap" Arnold, Commander, Army Air Force
By Maj. Al Matecko
     They lost friends.
     They endured the cold, the damp, the flak and the enemy
fighters.
     They made friendships still standing 50 years later.
     They were known as the Army Air Forces, and under Arnold's
command, they destroyed the enemy air force, paving the way for
the Normandy D-Day (Operation Overlord) invasion.
     Before Normandy could ever be reclaimed for the Allies, the
Army Air Forces flew long and difficult missions deep into
Germany.  The price paid was often high.
     On a mission against the Schweinfurt ball-bearing factories in
Oct. '43, 60 of the 291 B-17s sent to battle were shot down.
     Subsequently, and leading up to "Big Week" in February 1944,
more missions and more aircraft were sent against German
strongholds.
     Lt. Col. Al Buehler (USAF-Ret.), then a captain and B-17
bombardier with the 390th Bomb Group,  remembers, "Combat
was the hardest part of being there.  On most flights enemy fighters
and flak filled the sky.
     "It seemed all we were doing was flying, eating and sleeping.
The English winters were cold and damp, and we didn't have much
heat in any of the buildings."
     But they did apply the heat to the German industrial base,
particularly the aircraft industry during the week of Feb. 20-25,
1944.  Flying against a dozen factories, the Army Air Forces
launched more than 3,800 bomber sorties and 3,500 fighter sorties
during the week.  Known officially as "Big Week,"  Buehler recalls
"We called it Messerschmitt Week.  Our goal was to stop their
aircraft production."
     As D-Day came closer, air crews targeted oil refineries,
railways and other areas to stop or slow down the German supply
lines.
     Brig. Gen. Bob Waltz  (USAF-Ret.)  was a B-17 aircraft
commander  with the 390th Bomb Group.  Flying out of
Framlingham, England, Waltz says, "When we flew in the fall of
'43,  losses were heavy.  But as our fighter support picked up after
the start of '44, we gained momentum.  We  weren't comfortable,
but we had the Germans on the run.  Towards the latter part of
April, we started covered bombings in France."
     Waltz, who went to England as a second lieutenant and left a
lieutenant colonel as the deputy group commander, flew 42
missions.  During those missions, the general logged 506 hours.
     "We knew as time went on, we were preparing for other things,"
he says.  "Our loss rate had lowered, the German pilots we were
flying against kept getting younger  and the Army was pouring into
England."
     As June approached, more and more missions targeted the
Normandy coast and rail lines leading to the coast.  In the three
weeks preceding D-Day, 6,700 tons of bombs were dropped on
targets within 130 miles of the proposed invasion landing sites.
     According to Buehler, "We didn't know when D-Day was going
to happen, but we knew something was going to happen.  The
Army was stockpiling equipment along the British roadsides.  We
just kept flying."
     By D-Day, the German supply lines had been effectively cut, as
every bridge over the Seine River below Paris had been destroyed.
The railway had been so crippled German reinforcements had to
walk  into the Normandy region.
     On D-Day itself, the Army Air Forces owned the skies.  Eighth
Army Air Force, commanded by Lt. Gen. James Doolittle, put
more than 1,300 bombers over the Normandy area by daybreak.
The Ninth Army Air Force, commanded by Lt. Gen. Lewis  H.
Brereton, launched P-47 and P-51 fighters at German coastal
strongholds.
     All told, between the two numbered air forces more than 8,722
combat sorties were flown.  The British Royal Air Force flew
another 5,676 sorties.  The German Luftwaffe could muster only
319 sorties.
     By the end of the day, the Allies had captured the Normandy
beaches, gaining an important strategic and moral victory.
    Fifty years later, Waltz recalls not only the war, but also the
lessons learned.  He believes, "Acceptance of responsibility was
the biggest thing you learned.  You learned responsibility for
yourself, your unit, your country.
     "I lost friends over there.  There was a great uncertainty of not
knowing if you were going to be the next one not to come back.
But you kept going.  We flew for each other.  We flew for the
group and you never wanted to embarrass the group.  There was a
great sense of pride in our organization, and today, there remains
the great sense of pride in our 390th Bomb Group."
    Buehler echoes the general's sentiments.
     "Responsibility was unquestionably assumed.  Everybody
matured in a hurry.  We did a tremendous amount of good.
     "We reduced the morale of Germans.  We reduced the German
fighter force.  We led to D-Day forces receiving little if any air
attacks.  We were loyal to each other, our country and our allies."
(Matecko is a Reserve public affairs officer with U. S. Strategic
Command)

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 12:27:51 +1000
From:    George PISZCZUK <PHGPI@CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Helicopters in WWII

Hello,

:The german Flettner factory was developing some helicopters before and during
:WWII. One of the most advanced of its time was the Kolibri (I don't remember
:the designation). Before WWII, there were also some Focke-Achgelis helicopter
:designs. One of them was a twin-rotor helicopter.

:I think US Bell 47 and Hiller helicopters were first flown during WWII. I
:will try to find more information at home.

:Don't forget the autogyros. As I remember, some Cierva and Avro models have
:operated during WWII.

:Have a nice day,

:Jorge

An interesting example of an autogyro was the Focke-Achgelis Fa 330 BACHSTELZE
(Water Wagtail). 200 or so examples were delivered from June 1942. These were
designed to be towed by U-boats so as to provide an observation platform. The
visual radius was improved from a typical 5 miles (8 km) from the conning tower
to 25 miles (40 km) at a height of 120 m.

A cra shdive inevitably caused the Fa 330 to be cast adrift, with the probable
loss othe pilot. I beleive that these were little used in operations.s.

George

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 3 Apr 1994 to 4 Apr 1994
***********************************************

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There are 37 messages totalling 1370 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Spain's Franco (compared with Hitler/Muss.):  Good Guy?
  2. D-DAY:FS (5)
  3. INF: USAAF 5 APR 44
  4. Re[2]: Weap: B-17 vs B-24 (6)
  5. Manny Klette and the 91st BG
  6. U.S. Occupation of Japan
  7. D-Day (2)
  8. Re-2-: AF Guardian
  9. INF: German uniforms (3)
 10. WEAP: Helicopters in WW-II
 11. TRV:French diplomatic blunders
 12. WEAP: Early Jets
 13. France & Reservations
 14. Re[2]: Re[2]: Weap: B-17 vs B-24 (2)
 15. Hs-294
 16. Heinz Dittmar over mach 1? Me-163v-1 (2)
 17. Re[2]: D-DAY:FS
 18. Chuck Yeagers Kills in wwii
 19. MEDIA: Degrelle is dead
 20. TRV:  DeGaulle's faux pas
 21. Hs-293
 22. SPECULATION: No WWII for USA without Pearl Harbor?
 23. NOST: 50 years ago this week

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Apr 1994 09:48:39 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: Spain's Franco (compared with Hitler/Muss.):  Good Guy?

> >Franco seemed to begin his takeover because of the social problems/
> >  disintegration and corruption of Spain.  Considering how he paved
> >  the way to the Spanish democracy we seem to have now, didn't his
> >  military takeover/junta HELP Spain?
>
> I don't agree with this.  Spain was in no sense disintegrating before Franco's
> pronunciamento; Franco & the right simply couldn't stomach Spanish democracy
> nor even a centrist government taking power.  Originally, Franco expected the
> Republic to roll over as had every other government of Spain when an army
> officer "pronounced"; it did, in fact, but the real shocker was that elements
> ranging from urban bourgeoisie with a centrist outlook all the way to the
> Anarcho-Syndicalists on the left finally got sick and tired of these episodes
> and took up arms.

I don't think there's much good to be said either about Franco or the
Stalinists who took over the Republican side after the war started.  Neither
one gave a tinker's damn about anything resembling "democracy", and were
more than willing to kill LOTS of people to ensure that democracy didn't
happen in Spain.  The myth of the heroic "democratic" Republicans was just
that, a MYTH, especially after the Stalinists began purging and KILLING the
democrats and anarchists.  Franco of course is self explanatory.  The best
thing which can be said for him is that he wasn't Hitler, not an especially
enthusiastic epitaph.  He WAS smarter than Mussolini, which explains why
he died of old age.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 09:29:47 +0100
From:    Yannick FRANCOIS Bozzo the Clone Yin Yang <francois@TOULOUSE.INRA.FR>
Subject: Re: D-DAY:FS

Hum!!

>All the French TV stations have been covering this scandal.  The
>heros, the ones who risked their lives to save the country are
>kicked out by the arrogance of the current government which is
>making its plans at the last minute and expects everybody to
>kowtow to it.

What do you really mean by arrogance? I'd like to remember you that some of
the people of this governement were in concentration camp, others were
fighting as resistants or FFL.

>cancellation of the reservations.  So, they couldn't own up
>to their mistake, but the veterans will keep their rooms at
>the hotels and the bigshots (the "liberated") will be put in
>hotels in Paris.

I'm preatty happy that you also consider your president (Clinton) as a
liberated (and a bigshot)! Sure he won't appreciate the whole fun of this
affair!

>The people who did this:
>Ministere des Affaires Etrangeres
>37, Quai d'Orsay
>75007 Paris FRANCE

This is the correct address if you want to validate a passport, or
whatever, not for some protests.

>(What are they doing "requisitioning" in peacetime anyway?)

Maybe you should be french to have a more accurate point of vue on all this...

You should also read this morning's english papers that say: the french
have no hospitality. I'm sure we haven't, but in this case nobody has an
atom of hospitality.

Well, I'm sad that this affair went this way, but I'm also disgusted of
what was said on it (and only a very small part was true). I really hate
the reporters, and I also dislike people who can't have a discernment in
front of their biased information.

A la revoyure.
Je suis un pauvre petit francais egare sur le reseau...

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 07:17:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: INF: USAAF 5 APR 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
WEDNESDAY, 5 APRIL 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 13 B-24s bomb the railroad from
Moulmein to Kanchanaburi, destroying 3 bridges, damaging several others, and
causing much damage to track and railroad cars.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): P-40s from Yungning, China pound a railroad
siding at Na Cham, French Indochina, destroying 8 boxcars and a considerable
amount of track.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 288: 21 of 50 B-24s
dispatched hit V-weapon sites at St Pol/Siracourt, France without loss; heavy
clouds and the failure of blind-bombing equipment cause other B-24s to return
to base without bombing. 50 P-47s escort the B-24s without loss.
  Mission 289: 96 P-38s, 236 P-47s and 124 P-51s are dispatched to attack
airfields in Germany; heavy cloud hinders most groups; results are:
  1. P-38s: 1 is lost and 4 damaged; 1 pilot is MIA.
  2. P-47s claim 2-0-2 Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 P-47 is lost and 4 damaged; 1
pilot is MIA.
  3. P-51s claim 96-4-120 Luftwaffe aircraft; 7 P-51s are lost and 3 damaged;
casualties are 1 KIA and 6 MIA.
  During the night of 5/6 Apr, 801st Bombardment Group (Provisional)
dispatches 17 B-24s on CARPETBAGGER (air operations to drop supplies to
guerillas in Europe) missions; 1 B-24 is lost.
  Units arriving in England from the US: HQ 487th Bombardment Group (Heavy)
at Lavenham; 503d, 504th and 505th Fighter-Bomber Squadrons, 339th Fighter-
Bomber Group at Fowlmere with P-51s (first mission is 30 Apr); and 832d,
833d, 834th and 835th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), 486th Bombardment Group
(Heavy), with B-24s (first mission is 7 May).

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Units arriving in England from the
US: HQ 36th Fighter Group and 22d Fighter Squadron at Kingsnorth with P-47s
(first mission is 8 May); HQ 50th Fighter Group and 10th, 81st and 313th
Fighter Squadrons at Lymington with P-47s (first mission is 1 May); HQ 367th
Fighter Group and 392d Fighter Squadron at Stony Cross with P-38s (first
mission is 9 May); HQ 397th Bombardment Group (Medium) and 596th, 597th,
598th and 599th Bombardment Squadrons (Medium) at Gosfield with B-26s (first
mission is 20 Apr); 411th and 412th Fighter Squadrons, 373d Fighter Group at
Woodchurch with P-47s (first mission is 8 May); 506th, 507th and 508th
Fighter-Bomber Squadrons, 404th Fighter-Bomber Group, at Winkton with P-47s
(first mission is 1 May); and 513th Fighter-Bomber Squadron, 406th Fighter-
Bomber Group, at Ashford with P-47s (first mission is 9 May).

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 334 B-17s and B-24s hit targets
in Rumania and Yugoslavia; the B-17s bomb a marshalling yard at Ploesti,
Rumania and Nis, Yugoslavia; the B-24s hit a marshalling yard at Ploesti and
Leskovac, Yugoslavia; fighters and AA shoot down 13 bombers.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, weather precludes all
light and medium bomber action; P-40s hit the Colleferro railway station,
several fuel dumps, and gun positions in the US Fifth Army battle areas;
A-36s bomb Formia, and railway stations NW of Rome and in the Frosinone area.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-25s from Tarawa Atoll hit
Maloelap Atoll, bomb up again at Majuro Atoll, Marshall Islands, and hit
Jaluit Atoll during the return trip.
  HQ 11th Bombardment Group (Heavy) moves from Tarawa Atoll to Kwajalein
Atoll.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): 12 B-25s pound Kara,
Bougainville Island. Bad weather cancels all missions against targets in the
Bismarck Archipelago.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 270+ B-24s,
B-25s, A-20s and P-38s hit Hollandia town and dock area and villages and
stores around Humboldt Bay; P-47s and P-40s blast numerous targets in the
Hansa Bay-Bogia and Wewak areas; and B-24s hit Kaimana and Efman Island.
B-25s bomb Koepang on Timor Island.
  Units moving from Dobodura to Saidor, New Guinea: 82d Reconnaissance
Squadron (Fighter), 71st Reconnaissance Group, with P-39s; and 311th Fighter
Squadron, 58th Fighter Group, with P-47s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 07:26:25 -0400
From:    Daniel Ford <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Weap: B-17 vs B-24

>     I don't think it can be said that the Pacific Theater got the
> inferior weapons on purpose, because that was all we had there at the
> time in Pearl Harbor, Bataan, Corregidor, Wake Island, etc. You must

Very much so! The P-40s so closely associated with the image of the 14th
Air Force in China were all sent there long after the war began. My
Flying Tiger T-shirt from NASM shows 2nd Lt Don Lopez in front of Lope's
Hope at Henghang in Dec 1943 and I think he flew it until well into 1944.

The weapons were second rate and the men were few. Maybe the Navy did
better. (Are you there, John Lundstrom?)
>
> >         Could anyone please explain this statement (Dan?). I would think
> >      that the United States would be more concerned for the safety of
> >      "Mainland America" than the well being of the Allies in Europe. Seeing
> >      as to how the West Coast was preparing for an invasion, I would think
> >      that the better equipment would go to them instead of Europe.
>
Good point. And it is a fact that our first B-26 group went to California
and ultimately to Australia. Perhaps I am overly influenced by the
griping of the people who served in the Pacific, and they had to fight
earlier and with essentially prewar equipment.

But Roosevelt from the first day wanted essentially a holding action in
the Pacific while we went to war against Germany wherever she could be
hit, which meant in North Africa and by long-range "strategic" bombing.
Does anybody know if he had a reaction to say the Battle of Midway?
Looking back, it's clear that we stopped losing the Pacific War in June
1942, and if Roosevelt was as smart as everything seems to believe,
perhaps he saw that and understood it would be safe to look to Europe first.

Cheers - Dan Ford   <e-mail: dan.ford@unh.edu>
                    <postal: 433 Bay Road, Durham NH 03824 USA>
                    <voice/fax: +1-603-868-5850>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 06:59:53 CDT
From:    jesse carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject: Manny Klette and the 91st BG

Dear All ;

I will have that post on Manny Klette and his exploits with the 91st BG
(Bassingbourne, UK) for THURSDAY ... my REGRETS for the lateness of this.

I have been rather tired lately and like ALL of us on the list, rather busy
to boot.

Again, Thursday will by my date to post the Manny Klette dittie.



Apologies ;

Jesse Carnes
notjic@lsuvm.sncc.lsu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 08:19:30 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: D-DAY:FS

On Tue, 5 Apr 1994 09:29:47 +0100 Yannick FRANCOIS Bozzo the Clone Yin Yang said
>>heros, the ones who risked their lives to save the country are
>>kicked out by the arrogance of the current government which is
>>making its plans at the last minute and expects everybody to
>>kowtow to it.
>
>What do you really mean by arrogance? I'd like to remember you that some of
>the people of this governement were in concentration camp, others were
>fighting as resistants or FFL.

I can't speak for the original writer.  But where I come from, it would be
pretty arrogant to use one's position/power/money to boot someone else out
of his/her long-standing reservations, just for one's own comfort.  The point
of this celebration is to honor the living and dead that did a difficult
& crucial job at the place where they did it.  I don't see anything wrong
with honoring any Maquis or FFL that participated; that's just & proper.
But not at the expense of their brothers in arms, surely.

>>cancellation of the reservations.  So, they couldn't own up
>>to their mistake, but the veterans will keep their rooms at
>>the hotels and the bigshots (the "liberated") will be put in
>>hotels in Paris.
>
>I'm preatty happy that you also consider your president (Clinton) as a
>liberated (and a bigshot)! Sure he won't appreciate the whole fun of this
>affair!

I'm not sure what you are saying here, but given Clinton's eagerness to
mend his military PR fences, I'd bet a week's wages that he'd have changed
his hotel as soon as he found out what had happened.

>>The people who did this:
>>Ministere des Affaires Etrangeres
>>37, Quai d'Orsay
>>75007 Paris FRANCE
>
>This is the correct address if you want to validate a passport, or
>whatever, not for some protests.

Well, given that we can't all go to Paris to organize a manif, what do *you*
suggest?

>You should also read this morning's english papers that say: the french
>have no hospitality. I'm sure we haven't, but in this case nobody has an
>atom of hospitality.

That just isn't true; I was always made welcome everywhere I travelled in
France. . . outside of Paris, of course, but then, my French friends from
outside of Paris tended to feel the same about Parisians (-:

>. . . . and I also dislike people who can't have a discernment in
>front of their biased information.

Yes.  Very correct--but make sure that your own information is never biased,
d'accord? (-:

ken koester, Paris, 6/72-6/73
maint2@ers.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Apr 1994 16:35:05 -1000
From:    * <SHERMANS@EWC.BITNET>
Subject: U.S. Occupation of Japan

Dear Mr. Jewell:

I am hoping you will post this notice on the WWII-L. Thank you for your
kind attention.

Subj:   U.S. Occupation of Japan

NOTICE: I am a researcher at the East-West Center in Honolulu. I am working
on a documentary film project on the occupation of Japan from 1945 through
1952. I am attempting to track down film footage (in any format) that
was shot in Japan during the occupation. If anyone knows of the location
of any film of this sort, could you please contact me at my bitnet
address "shermans@ewc.bitnet." Thanks you. Spencer Sherman, visiting fellow,
East West Center, Honolulu.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 15:36:00 +0100
From:    Yannick FRANCOIS Bozzo the Clone Yin Yang <francois@TOULOUSE.INRA.FR>
Subject: Re: D-DAY:FS

>I can't speak for the original writer.  But where I come from, it would be
>pretty arrogant to use one's position/power/money to boot someone else out
>of his/her long-standing reservations, just for one's own comfort.  The poi=
nt
>of this celebration is to honor the living and dead that did a difficult
>& crucial job at the place where they did it.  I don't see anything wrong
>with honoring any Maquis or FFL that participated; that's just & proper.
>But not at the expense of their brothers in arms, surely.

Exactly, that's what I meant.

>I'm not sure what you are saying here, but given Clinton's eagerness to
>mend his military PR fences, I'd bet a week's wages that he'd have changed
>his hotel as soon as he found out what had happened.

Oh! I really don't know anything about Clinton's life. What I understood
from the original phrase was that it was from the "bigshots" and
"liberated" fault that the problem arose. And I wasn't sure what really was
behind those 2 words,...

>Well, given that we can't all go to Paris to organize a manif, what do *you=
*
>suggest?

Come with me and let's make a manif! Well, I'm not a foreign affair
specialist, so I really don't know. Maybe a letter sent directly to the
Secretary could do something, although I don't think it was his decision.

>That just isn't true; I was always made welcome everywhere I travelled in
>France. . . outside of Paris, of course, but then, my French friends from
>outside of Paris tended to feel the same about Parisians (-:

I had just read this on an english newspaper and "ca m'a fait voir rouge."
I really hate all this affair because it gives a bad image of France,
because it's built upon a misunderstanding rather than a will to do the
bad, and most of all because of these reporters who made a world of it
while it needn't.

>Yes.  Very correct--but make sure that your own information is never biased=
,
>d'accord? (-:

Je pense qu'ne source internationale est un minimum dans ce genre
d'affaires. C'est pourquoi, je me suis base sur des nouvelles fran=E7aises
(abondantes et de tous les bords politiques), anglaises (qui m'ont outre),
allemandes (succintes), canadiennes (probablement les plus justes sur le
fond et sur la forme). Enfin, c'est une triste affaire dont je ne souhaite
qu'une chose: la fin (c'est pourquoi je n'en parlerai plus).

        Salut - Yannick

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 09:33:46 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <sep@TVSS2.COMMNET.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Weap: B-17 vs B-24

I've been patiently wading thru all the postings inre: the Pacific Theatre
versus the European Theatre with regards to the priority Washington has
given to each. The answer is obvious on two points:
        From whence came the majority of American citizens?
        Which is closer to WASHINGTON DC?

My two cents, which is probably worth less...                   Steve

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 09:54:59 -0400
From:    Jim Broussard <BROUSSARD@ACAD.LVC.EDU>
Subject: Re: D-Day

Question: Why are the boulevards in Paris lined with big shady trees?

Answer: The German Army hates to march in the sun.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 00:16:34 +1000
From:    Ray Fairall <ASRGF@CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Weap: B-17 vs B-24

Surely the point is that the Japanese posed a much lesser threat than the
Germans. How about the notion that the Germans could have been developing
nuclear weapons? Germany was a first rate industrial power, Japan was not!
Besides the U.S Navy Submarines were able to do to the Japanese what the
German U-Boats could not.
My $Aus 0.02 worth,
Regards Ray.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 10:21:43 EST
From:    Mike Oaks <moaks@KSCMAIL.KENNESAW.EDU>
Subject: Re: D-DAY:FS

On Tue, 5 Apr 1994 09:29:47 +0100,
Yannick FRANCOIS Bozzo the Clone Yin Yang  <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.ed wrote:

>Hum!!
>
>>All the French TV stations have been covering this scandal.  The
>>heros, the ones who risked their lives to save the country are
>>kicked out by the arrogance of the current government which is
>>making its plans at the last minute and expects everybody to
>>kowtow to it.
>
>What do you really mean by arrogance? I'd like to remember you that some of
>the people of this governement were in concentration camp, others were
>fighting as resistants or FFL.
>
>>cancellation of the reservations.  So, they couldn't own up
>>to their mistake, but the veterans will keep their rooms at
>>the hotels and the bigshots (the "liberated") will be put in
>>hotels in Paris.
>
>I'm preatty happy that you also consider your president (Clinton) as a
>liberated (and a bigshot)! Sure he won't appreciate the whole fun of this
>affair!
>
>>The people who did this:
>>Ministere des Affaires Etrangeres
>>37, Quai d'Orsay
>>75007 Paris FRANCE
>
>This is the correct address if you want to validate a passport, or
>whatever, not for some protests.
>
>>(What are they doing "requisitioning" in peacetime anyway?)
>
>Maybe you should be french to have a more accurate point of vue on all this...
>
>You should also read this morning's english papers that say: the french
>have no hospitality. I'm sure we haven't, but in this case nobody has an
>atom of hospitality.
>
>Well, I'm sad that this affair went this way, but I'm also disgusted of
>what was said on it (and only a very small part was true). I really hate
>the reporters, and I also dislike people who can't have a discernment in
>front of their biased information.
>
>A la revoyure.
>Je suis un pauvre petit francais egare sur le reseau...

Frogs and war never did mix. Look at their track record in WWII, French
North Africa, the Maginot Line, Paris, etc... Like you said, "Others
fighting as resistants or FFL" Some, but not the majority.
   France is still taking a back seat as far as involvement in world peace.
They're just sitting there, isolationist as ever, while everyone else is
trying to keep the world on an even keel, aqnd when that is done France
will step in and reap the benefits like they did with, and after, WWII.

    Michael Oaks
    Kennesaw State College
    moaks@kscmail.kennesaw.edu
    Tel: (404) 423-6049  Fax (404) 423-6541

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 16:32:38 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVS1.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: Re-2-: AF Guardian

On Sun, 3 Apr 1994, S214000 wrote:

> Happy Easter!! I really enjoyed the list of early jets the
> Emmanual(sp?)posted, But I thought the Grumman AF Guardian aircraft were
> recips. It'sbeen awhile since I read about these planes, and my
> reference material is at home, so I'm working from memory.

Yes, for the production aircraft. But the prototypes had a jet engine in
the tail; they were mixed-power aircraft.

Emmanuel

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 11:31:09 -0400
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: INF: German uniforms

Real quick question:

        What is the historical significance of the Roman numeral twos on
the collars of German tunics?  I seem to recall some Prussian tradition
dating back to the Napoleonic era but the details escape me (not to mention
that I'm probably misremembering!).  Thanks.
--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
It's a Mark 6!  And we got her by the ass!

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 10:36:11 EST
From:    Jorge Merino <jmerino@VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject: WEAP: Helicopters in WW-II

Here is a little list of some interesting early helicopters. Some of them
have participated in some way during WW-II.

- Bell 30 (1943)
- Bell 47/H-13 (December 8, 1945)
- Bell 48/R-12/H-12 (1946)
- Bell 61 (March 4, 1953, twin rotor)
- Brantly-Hynes B-1 (1946)
- Brantly-Hynes B-2 (February 21, 1953)
- Bratukhin Omega (1942, based on the german Fa-61)
- Bratukhin Omega II (1944)
- Bratukhin B-9, B-10 (1947)
- Bratukhin B-11 (1948)
- Breguet-Dorand Gyroplane Laboratoire (1933)
- Breguet-Richet Gyroplane No.1 (1947)
- Breguet-Richet Gyroplane No.2 (1948)
- Bristol 171 Sycamore (July 27, 1947)
- Bristol 173 Belvedere (January 3, 1952)
- Cierva C-1 (1920, Autogyro. Many other models were developed in the 20s)
- Cierva W.9 (1945)
- Cierva W.11 (December 7, 1948)
- Fairey Gyrodyne (December 1946)
- Firestone XR-9B (March 1946)
- Flettner early helicopters (1932, designation unknown)
- Flettner Fl-184 (1935)
- Flettner Fl-185 (1936)
- Flettner Fl-265 (March 1939)
- Flettner Fl-282 Kolibri (1942, used operationally by the german Navy)
- Focke-Achgelis Fa-61 (June 26, 1936. Often refered as Focke-Wulf Fw-61.
  On June 25, 1937, it made a static flight at 2440m for 1:20:49 hours)
- Focke-Achgelis Fa-223 Drache (1940)
- Focke-Achgelis Fa-266 Hornisse (1940)
- Focke-Achgelis Fa-330 Bachstelze (1942, Autogyro, used by german Navy)
- Gyrodyne 2, 7 Helidyne (1950s)
- Hafner R.I (1930)
- Hafner R.II (1932)
- Hafner AR.III Gyroplane (1937, Autogyro)
- Hafner Rotabuggy (1943, Flying car for military use)
- Kaman K-125A (January 15, 1947)
- Kaman K-190 (1948)
- Kaman K-225 (1950)
- Kamov-Skrzhinskii KaSkr-I (1930s)
- Kamov-Skrzhinskii KaSkr-II (1930s)
- Kamov Ka-8 (1945)
- Kamov Ka-10 "Hat" (1948)
- Kayaba Ka-1, Ka-2 (March 26, 1941, Autogyro)
- Kellet K-2, K-3, K-4 (1930s)
- Kellet KD-1 (1934)
- Kellet XR-8 (1943)
- Landgraf H-2 (November 2, 1944)
- Liore-et-Olivier LeO CL-10 (1932)
- Liore-et-Olivier LeO C.30 (1936)
- Liore-et-Olivier LeO C.301 (1938)
- Liore-et-Olivier LeO C.34 (1936)
- Mil Mi-1 "Hare" (1948)
- Yakovlev Yak-100 "Horse" (1948)

In addition, the early Sikorsky, Piasecki-Vertol, Bell, Hiller, Hughes
and many other US helicopters were flown during the 40s and early 50s.

My two cents,

Jorge

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 11:36:23 -0400
From:    David Rising <drising@IO.ORG>
Subject: TRV:French diplomatic blunders

I read in the NY Times a few weeks ago a story which seems appropriate to
share at this time:
During the Kennedy administration, Charles de Gaulle demanded that all
American troops be removed from France immediately. To this, secretary of
state Dean Rusk replied: "Oh, would you like us to exhume the bodies from
the cemetaries too?"
Just an interesting anecdote.
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 11:02:40 EST
From:    Jorge Merino <jmerino@VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject: WEAP: Early Jets

Hello,

The german factory DFS has developed some rocket-powered prototypes during
WW-II. However, these aircraft didn't made any powered flight during the
conflict. These prototypes are:

- DFS-228 (One Walter 109-509A-1, 1500 kg rocket). It made many unpowered
  flights, launched from the top of a Dornier Do-217K bomber.
- DFS-346 (Two Walter 109-509, 2000 kg rockets). It has never flown during
  the war. The russians captured the prototype, and continued the development.
  In 1947, it reached 1100 km/h at 10000m.

The famed US Bell XS-1 (later redesignated X-1) made her maiden unpowered
flight on January 19, 1946. The first powered flight was made on December
12, 1946 (Launched from a modified B-29). On October 14, 1947, Charles "Chuck"
Yeager crossed for the first time the speed of sound.

My two cents,

Jorge

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 12:57:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: France & Reservations

Hey Guys,
The discussion about the Canadians and Brits having their reservations
revoked in France started out as an intelligent discussion.  It sounds to
me as if it is erupted into a flame war and I for one have had enough.

Please save your flame wars for e-mail.

Thank you.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 12:17:48 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: D-Day

Hello, Jim!



> Question: Why are the boulevards in Paris lined with big shady trees?
>
> Answer: The German Army hates to march in the sun.

    That's beautiful! :-)

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 12:22:57 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Weap: B-17 vs B-24

Hello, Steve!


> given to each. The answer is obvious on two points:
>         From whence came the majority of American citizens?
>         Which is closer to WASHINGTON DC?

    I highly recommend the book "Wedemeyer Reports" by General Albert
C. Wedemeyer who was a member of the War Plans Division of the
General Staff who was intimately involved in the recommendations and
studies made to decide this point. He discusses this in great detail,
and your two questions above did not enter into the discussion, I can
assure you.


    Terry







Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 13:27:44 -0400
From:    Daniel Ford <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Weap: B-17 vs B-24

On Wed, 6 Apr 1994, Ray Fairall wrote:
> Surely the point is that the Japanese posed a much lesser threat than the
> Germans. How about the notion that the Germans could have been developing

Doubt you would have said that if you were living in Oz in February 1942!

When MacArthur left Corregidor and escaped to Australia, he apparently
really expected to take command of a huge American army with which to
come to the aid of the Philippines. He was somewhat disheartened upon his
arrival in Darwin to learn that there were exactly 25,000 Americans in
Oz, and that not one of them was an infantryman!

As for the Australian combat forces, they totaled 7,000 men in Oz. (These
figures from Toland, BUT NOT IN SHAME.)

Cheers - Dan Ford   <e-mail: dan.ford@unh.edu>
                    <postal: 433 Bay Road, Durham NH 03824 USA>
                    <voice/fax: +1-603-868-5850>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 12:22:14 CST
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re[2]: Re[2]: Weap: B-17 vs B-24

Hey--what about my original question--if I were an operational planner
in the 8th Air Force, what operational considerations of a B-17 and a
B-24 would make me look at a target, and think, "Hmmm--looks like a B-17
target to me," or "Hmmm, looks like a B-24 target to me." That was my
original question.  TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 12:26:48 CST
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: INF: German uniforms

They are called collar tabs.  I would look up the information in my
references, however I am moving next week, and they are already packed
away in some nameless box in my apartment.  When I get settled into my
house I can pull them out and tell you, if you can wait a little while.
TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 12:31:12 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hs-294

Hello, Gudmundur!

Here goes with some more info and this time on the HS-294. I may make
some mistakes here as I am having to associate the proper English
idea here from the Japanese. There was no write-up on this; only
technical data.

                         HS-294

The HS-294 was an AUM. Weight at firing: 2170 kg. Weight of
propellant: 239kg. Length: 6.1 meters. Diameter: 0.76m. Range:4-14
km. Max Speed: 864 km/h. This missle was fired from an He-177.

That is all that I have on this one. If I run across anything else, I
will let you know, or there may someone else on this list who has
more detail than I at this time.

Will send more tomorrow.

All the best.

Terry







Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 13:53:42 -0400
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: D-DAY:FS

Let's all take a deep breath before posting anymore about the D-Day
vets being bumped by government officials.  Passions are starting
to run high and I don't want to see a flame-war started.  I ask that
everyone simply ignore any previous messages that have been inflamatory.
Thanks.
--
Joe Barone, WWII-L list-owner
m1b@ssd.ray.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 18:33:13 +0000
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <gummihe@ISMENNT.IS>
Subject: Heinz Dittmar over mach 1? Me-163v-1

        Hello all

ONe thing has puzzled me for a while. I have here Guinnes Book of
Records that states that Captain Heinz Dittmar in the Luftwaffe flew the
Me-163V-1 at Peenemunde on October 2 1941 at the speed of 1004km/ph.

Did Dittmar then not reach mach 1 before mr. Yeager? Or is Mach one more
than 1000kmph?

Bye for now

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 14:15:01 CDT
From:    Steve Alvin <salvin@HEARTLAND.BRADLEY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Weap: B-17 vs B-24

I missed the beginning of this thread because I've been on
"nomail" for  a while.  I think it needs to be remembered that
in the first year or so of the war, the Americans did not have
a first rate fighter in production!  The P-40 was basically it.
It was used in all theaters, not just in the Pacific.  The P-40
w2as an ok fighter, but it was not a match for the German fighters.
American even flew Spitfires received as "reverse Lend-lease" in
North Africa as a stop gap.

As more modern fighters were produced in numbers, the P-38, 47,
and 51 they were naturally sent to the front where the biggest
threat was evidence--the European theater.  The P-40 could continue
to serve adequately in the Pacific, especially in China, where
its ruggedness was important and because, with training, the P-40
could still fight the Japanese fighters.

Eventually, more modern fighters did serve in large numbers in
the Pacific and in China as well.  Also, don't forget that the
best heavy bomber of World War II served exclusively in the Pacific.

--
Steve Alvin
salvin@heartland.bradley.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 14:10:15 -0400
From:    Ron Babuka <wrb1@CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Re[2]: Weap: B-17 vs B-24

>Hey--what about my original question--if I were an operational planner
>in the 8th Air Force, what operational considerations of a B-17 and a
>B-24 would make me look at a target, and think, "Hmmm--looks like a B-17
>target to me," or "Hmmm, looks like a B-24 target to me." That was my
>original question.  TAS
>
>************************************************************************
>*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
>*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
>*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
>*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
>*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
>************************************************************************


That is exactly what happened in the raid on Ploesti (sp?) where range was
the main factor.  As in if the planners looked at anti-aircraft and enemy
fighter dispersion on the route to the target - I couldn't fathom a guess.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 12:39:44 PST
From:    "Jones, Scott T." <sjones@CCLINK.LOGICON.COM>
Subject: Re[2]: D-DAY:FS

     Whoa Gang!

     This topic was a bit touchy to begin with but with Mr. Oaks
     introducing derogatory terms for the French and his anti-French
     opinions, I think it is best to take this into a personal mailing
     level or remove it altogether. I am a subscriber of this list so that
     I may learn about history and gain different viewpoints, not to add to
     my dictionary of insulting terms and comments! Granted, I am not the
     List manager, but I do think that common sense and good taste would
     dictate a different arena for this behavior. I, too, am not a fan of
     the French fighting history but this OPINION is not something which
     should be presented in an immature manner which resorts to name
     calling and insulting comments.

     I think we can all agree on the following:

     1) The people who had hotel reservations and were then bumped got a
     raw deal.

     2) The D-Day invaders fought on to liberate France from the German
     army after France fell to the Germans in the beginning of WWII.

     3) France is in Europe.

     4) The French have a different word for everything.

     Anything else should be presented in a responsible, sensible and FAIR
     manner or be taken out to the playground.

     Two more of my pennies in the pot...

     Scott Jones
     Sjones@LOGICON.COM

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 15:43:54 -0400
From:    John Peterson <PETERSJL3522@SNYONEVA.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Heinz Dittmar over mach 1? Me-163v-1

>Date: Tue, 05 Apr 1994 18:33:13 +0000
>From: Gudmundur Helgason <gummihe@ISMENNT.IS>
>
>        Hello all
>
>ONe thing has puzzled me for a while. I have here Guinnes Book of
>Records that states that Captain Heinz Dittmar in the Luftwaffe flew the
>Me-163V-1 at Peenemunde on October 2 1941 at the speed of 1004km/ph.
>
>Did Dittmar then not reach mach 1 before mr. Yeager? Or is Mach one more
>than 1000kmph?
>
>Bye for now

The speed of sound in air at 20 C and 1 atm. is 343 m/s, or 1234.8 km/h,
or 767 mi/h.  Straight from an old Physics text.
Don't try to start any conspiracies against Yeager!! :-)

John Peterson
PETERSJL3522@snyoneva.cc.oneonta.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 18:38:47 +0000
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <gummihe@ISMENNT.IS>
Subject: Chuck Yeagers Kills in wwii

Hello all

Can someone tell me how many kills mr. Yeager did score in wwii? He got
5 Me-109's in one day so he must have at least 10-15 kills (1 Me-262 and
Me-163 I think). So, how many did he score? Did he fight also in Korea?

Bye for now



Gudmundur J. Helgason                      E-mail:    gummihe@ismennt.is
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Patriotism is the arrogance of assuming that your country is the greatest
 one there is, simply because *you* were born there". :)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 16:34:37 -0500
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: INF: German uniforms

> Real quick question:
>
>         What is the historical significance of the Roman numeral twos on
> the collars of German tunics?  I seem to recall some Prussian tradition
> dating back to the Napoleonic era but the details escape me (not to mention
> that I'm probably misremembering!).  Thanks.
> --
> Joe Barone


Hi Joe,

Here's the real quick answer:

The design is traceable back to Napoleonic times but they were
originally functional.  That function dates even further back to the
days of knights and castles.

Back when people were running around hacking at each other with swords
it became apparent that some protection was needed and so armor was
developed to deflect blows from various weapons.  The battle of
Agincourt proved that fancy armor was not the answer (especially to
the English longbow) and so armor had to be developed to protect
vulnerable areas where one might be struck with a sword while still
providing mobility needed for cavalry warfare of that time. It was
designed more for cavalry since the sword was their close combat
weapon during the 1500s to the 1870s.

The neck and shoulder protection from chain and plate armor gave way
to heavy wire embroidered uniform collars and thick epaulettes often
made of metal.  The old Prussian uniforms from the 1800 had that
characteristic design but it went all the way around the collar.

As time marched forward these details lost functionality and
with that became smaller and more decorative than functional.
In the German Army of 1914 these collar patches and epaulettes
became badges of rank and branch.  By 1939 they had shrunk still
further but maintained their traditional lineage and more recent
function.

US Army uniforms still have epaulets which can be traced to this
same heritage.

One funny thing about uniforms and the heavy wire embroidery,
Frederick the Great of Prussia developed sleeve insignias because he
was sick of seeing soldiers wipe their runny noses on their uniforms.

Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 23:41:39 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVSDS.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: MEDIA: Degrelle is dead

Friday, 1 April 1994, Leon Jose de Ramirez Reina, alias Leon Degrelle,
former Belgian collaborator, died in Malaga, Spain, aged 87.

Before WWII, Degrelle was the leader of the extremist right-wing 'Rex'
movement, that won 21 seats in the Belgian Upper House and 8 in the
senate in the 1936 elections. In 1939, Rex lost all but 5 seats. When
Germany attacked Belgium in May 1940, Degrelle was arrested and sent to
Spain; later he was liberated by the Germans from his prison in Caen.

In 1941, after the German attack on the USSR, Degrelle encouraged his
followers fight with the Germans, in the SS-unit Wallonie. Degrelle
himself became SS-Sturmbahnfuhrer and was awarded the Iron Cross and the
Knight's Cross.

In 1944, Degrelle was sentenced, by default, to death for his
collaboration. He escaped from Norway to Spain, that received him well
enough. Spain refused to grant him asylum in 1946, but he nevertheless
acquired the Spanich nationality, and a new name, in 1954. He lived in
hiding until 1975, when he was seen at Franco's funeral.

In 1964, the period of limitation of Degrelle's sentence was extended by
ten years, In 1974, a Royal Decree was signed that declared Degrelle
persona non grata -- an unique event in Belgian law.  In 1991, Degrelle
was convicted in Spain for denying the holocaust.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 16:51:47 -0500
From:    mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: Re: TRV:  DeGaulle's faux pas

Being given a tour of the heroic Stalingrad battlefield
  memorial, DeGaulle surveyed the panorama from Mamaev Kurgan
  (the old Tartar hill/cemetery) and exclaimed:

    My God!  What a people!

With great Soviet pride, his guide thanked him for that tribute,
  but then DeGaulle said:

    Non!  Non!  I meant the GERMANS!  ... that they could have
      come so far!

He was hustled away, appropriately.  :-)

Lou Coatney, Western Illinois University

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 00:14:41 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVSDS.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: Hs-293

On Mon, 4 Apr 1994, Terry Moore wrote:

> Great to hear from you again, and hope all is well with you.

Thanks, Terry. Well, I have a cold. April here in Belgium means that you
have sunshine on monday, heavy rain on tuesday and hailstorms on wednesday
--- at least it is varied.

> > BTW, after all this talk about German guided weapons... Few people are
> > aware that the USA also had a guided weapon program at that time. At least
> > two were used operationally; GB-4 entered service in July 1944 and the
> > 'Azon' bomb destroyed the Pyinmana bridge in Burma, in December 1944.
>
>     Outside of you and one other, I think, that is the first I had
> heard of our efforts in this area. Do you have more info on this that
> could easily be posted?

Well, a little bit. There was a series of articles on the development of
AAMs in Air International, beginning in December 1986. There also is a
brief historical overview in the books of the inevitable Bill Gunston,
'Aircraft Armament' and 'Rockets and Missiles'.

Development of air-to-air missiles in the USA began in May 1941.
Development was slow, because of lack of interest and rivalry between Army
and Navy. But there were several impressive results, and a large number of
projects, indicating that the missile development probably suffered from a
lack of concentration of efforts too.

The least sophisticated were the BQs. The BQ series of the USAAF were
remotely-controlled aircraft, loaded with explosives; take off was, in the
case of the BQ-7 and BQ-8, done by pilots that baled out afterwards.  The
BQ-1 and BQ-2 were designed for this role by Fleetwings, and the BQ-4,
BQ-5 and BQ-6 by Interstate. The Interstate aircraft was also used by the
USN as the TDR, and was used by the USN in some attacks in the Pacific.
Other aircraft in the BQ-series were conversions of 'normal' aircraft:
the BQ-3 was a Fairchild AT-21, the BQ-7 a B-17 and the BQ-8 a B-24.  The
BQ-7 was used in combat from summer 1944 onwards, and about 27 were
converted; there were eight operational missions.  Results were poor; the
BQ-7 carried no less than 9072kg of explosives, but was vulnerable and
unreliable.  The BQ-8 was even more ambitious, with a 'warload' of
11340kg, but required two aircraft to control it.  Only two BQ-8s were
built.  One mission on 12 August 1944 failed when the aircraft exploded
before the crew had left it (killing Joseph Kennedy, the older brother of
JFK); the other hit a German airfield on 3 September 1944 --- the only
successful allied operation of this nature during WWII.

The JB or 'Jet Bomb' program was created as a reaction on the appeareance
of the German V-1 in 1944.  The V-1 itself was copied as the JB-2, and 330
were delivered for use against Japan, but none saw action.  The USAAF also
experimented with air-launching of the JB-2.  After the war the USN fired
many navalized JB-2s, 'Loons', from two submarines.  The JB-1 was a design
of Northrop, a flying wing with two small General Electric jet engines in
the center section, and carrying two 907kg bombs.  JB-3 'Tiamat' was
unique in the series because it was intended for air-to-air use, with a
rocket engine, a semi-active radar seeker, and a fragmentation warhead. It
shaped like a fuel tank with three large tail fins.  JB-4 was a pulse-jet
powered missile, JB-5 and JB-6 were wingless rockets, JB-7 was a pilotless
bomber, and JB-10 was the final flying-wing bomb made by Northrop.  The
whole program was halted in March 1946.

Less ambitious was the GB series of 'Guided Bombs', development of which
began in 1940.  The GBs were winged glider bombs.  In the early years of
the war only the GB-1 was produced, essentially a 907kg bomb with wings, a
simple radio control and an autopilot.  The GB-1 was used operationally in
its _unguided_ form; the only advantage it had was that the bomber could
avoid the heavy 'flak'.  About 1000 were dropped above Germany, but with
very poor accuracy.  The GB-4 was far more advanced, with a vidicon camera
for the guidance.  It became operational in July 1944. The experimental
CEP of 61m was not achieved in combat, because the bombs were not handled
with enough care.  GB-8 had an infrared seeker, GB-8 was remotely
controlled, GB-12 steered on light contrast, GB-13 homed on a flare, and
GB-14 had active radar homing; but none of these entered service.

The VB series were free-fall weapons, in contrast with the winged GB
series. Early models in this series were based on existing bombs, with
guidance added. The only that saw widespread wartime was VB-1, called Azon
because it had AZimuth ONly guidance. It was based on a 454kg M-44 bomb,
with a radio receiver, an octogonal tail ring with rudders, a gyro to
stabilize it with the right side up, and a tracking flare.  It was ready
in early 1944.  The 8th AF rejected it -- because it considered that the
bombing run would be too long, increasing losses -- and Azon entered
service with the 15th AF in Italy first.  Azon was claimed to be 29 times
more accurate than unguided bombs.  It was used mainly against viaducts
and bridges, and 12 to 15 percent of the dropped bombs hit the target.
VB-2 had similar guidance as VB-1, but was based on a 907kg bomb. There
were many later developments, but none entered service in WWII.  The final
VB-13 Razon (named so because it had Range and Azimuth control) was a
5443kg bomb, 6.4m long, that was used in large numbers in Korea.

An interesting weapon with a protracted development was 'Bat', a winged
bomb with active radar homing. The program began in 1941 under the name
'Dragon', and was intended against surface ships. In 1942 Dragon became
'Pelican', with a depth charge as weapons load, but in 1943 switched back
to attack on surface targets. It became 'Bat' in 1944; it was called that
way because it steered on reflected radar pulses. Bat had a slightly swept
wing with a span of 3.05m, and weighed 853kg. It was carried by the PB4Y-2
Privateer and entered service in May 1945, sinking several Japanese ships.
It was -- with a modified radar -- also effective against bridges. A
similar weapon, Gargoyle, never entered service.

Another important program was the 'Gorgon', a very diverse series of Navy
missiles, mostly AAMs. The devices in this series had different
configuration and engines; that included ramjets, 9.5-in turbojet engines,
and rocket engines.  Guidance was by radio command link, and some Gorgons
had a TV camera in the nose.  The camera was of little use, because it was
impossible to see the target in time to steer the missile to it. The
Gorgon program, proposed as early as 1937, continued until 1953, but none
entered service.

A SAM project that had a brief life was 'Little Joe', started in summer
1944 by the USN to create a weapon against the Kamikaze attacks.  It was a
550kg rocket, with a blunt appereance, large cruciform tail fins and small
canards, a rocket engine, and a 45kg warhead with a proximity fuse.  It
was cancelled in February 1945.  Developed at the same time, 'Little Lark'
was twice as large and more streamlined, and was continued after the war.
The achievements of Little Joe and Little Lark were very limited, and thus
the Navy gave the development of shipboard SAMs top priority in late 1944,
starting a very successful R&D program.  The first ramjet powered missile
in the 'Talos' project flew in June 1945 and was 'fashioned from the
exhaust piping of a P-47'.  Talos entered service in 1958.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 18:59:32 MET-1
From:    Bognar Attila <MOTEL@BTKSTUD.JPTE.HU>
Subject: Re: SPECULATION: No WWII for USA without Pearl Harbor?

I absolutely agree with Dan.

Let me add one more thing, though. As far as my understanding goes the
US would have had to enter the war if Japan - for whatever reason -
had not attacked. (Let's not talk about what FDR had thought about
Pearl Harbor!)
See, the point is that the US had become the leading power of the
world after the WW-I. Europe had lost this role and the US took it
over, it's just that neither Europe (esp. Britain and France) nor the
US did understand it.
But take this: who helped Europe to stand up again and recover from
the losses of the war? The US did. Home politics denied the chance
from Wilson, he had to send the troops home, for Senate said: OK,
enough of that, let's bring the boys back home and mind our own
business. The spirit of isolation prevailed, as we all know.
Still, economically the US dominated. And when WW-II came FDR saw the
opportunity to make political use of the leading role.
Let's just call the spade a spade: He had to enter the war to make
his nation the leader of not only world economy but also politics.
Without the second he certainly would have lost the first.

--------------------------------

> > > to the Internet, has asked me to post this question: "If the Japanese
> > > had not attacked Pearl Harbor, but went after the Dutch West Indies and
> > > Malaysia instead (but not the Philippines) would the US have still
> > > entered the war, and if so, when?"
> >
> But does the question make sense? The Japanese were golden as long as
> they stuck to China and Indochina, but there was no way they could invade
> Malaya without a shooting war with British forces, or the Dutch Indies
> without a shooting war with the Dutch colonial government that would
> bring in the British. (And it was the Indies that the Japanese needed
> above all else, for their oil fields.)
>
> Looking at the map, one understands how risky war would have been in
> Malaya and the Indies with a huge American presence in the Philippines.
> Just as northern Indochina served as an unsinkable aircraft carrier for
> the Japanese in their efforts to subdue the Chinese government, so would
> the Phillipines have served as an unsinkable aircraft carrier for the
> British and Dutch. And no question that we would have provided that sort
> of assistance, just as we were assisting Britain at the time.
>
> So I think that the Japanese options were either: 1) withdraw from
> Indochina and from mainland China, or 2) destroy the European forces in
> Southeast Asia, prevent the Americans from coming to their defense, and
> stoke up on Indonesian oil.
>
> Put another way, the alternatives were natioanl humilation or a suicidal
> war. How many governments would have opted for humiliation?
>
> Cheers - Dan Ford   <e-mail: dan.ford@unh.edu>
>                     <postal: 433 Bay Road, Durham NH 03824 USA>
>                     <voice/fax: +1-603-868-5850>
>

All the best,

Attila  motel@btkstud.jpte.hu

PS.: Look at my new address, please.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 22:51:43 EDT
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor,
         Marist Coll" <JZML@MARISTB.BITNET>
Subject: NOST: 50 years ago this week

I have obtained two calendars, one from the International Churchill
Society and one from the US Department of Defense which highlights
some of the events of WWII. As time permits, I will post some of
these events:

Fifty Years ago this week:

3 April - Allied bombs disable Tirpitz. (c)
4 April - British Empire casualties exceed 667,000. De Gaulle assumes
single control of Free French. (c)
5 April - US Army Air Corps bombers raid Ploesti, Rumania. (d)
6 April - British Communists purged from D-Day planning. (c)
7 April - Churchill addresses senior officers on D-Day plans. (c)
8 April - War policy against Japan discussed at Chequers (c)
9 April - Churchill dines with Polish Prime Minister (c)
Sources: (c) = Churchill society; (d) = Defense Dept.

Note- This was originally sent on April 3, 1994, but since I did not
see it on the list, and my helpdesk here at Marist indicated to me that
our Internet connection was wobbly for the last few days, I am reposting
-sorry if it is a duplicate for some.

Jonah Triebwasser
Adjunct Instructor
Marist College
Dyson Building (Adult Education)
Poughkeepsie, New York12601
Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
E-Mail: jzml@maristb.marist.edu

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 4 Apr 1994 to 5 Apr 1994
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 52 messages totalling 1749 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. WEAP: Helicopters in WWII
  2. SPECULATION: No WWII for USA without Pearl Harbor?
  3. Re[2]: Weap: B-17 vs B-24 (5)
  4. INF: German uniforms
  5. re : French ships.
  6. re : early jets. (2)
  7. INF: USAAF 6 APR 44
  8. Chuck Yeagers Kills in wwii (2)
  9. Heinz Dittmar over mach 1? Me-163v-1
 10. INF: P-51 loss
 11. Re : WEAP Early Jets.
 12. Mystery B-17
 13. Hs-293 (2)
 14. Defending the Philippines
 15. D-DAY:FS
 16. RCAF (7)
 17. INF: UK reading rooms
 18. 84th Infantry Division - The Railsplitters (2)
 19. Spain's Franco and "Killerati" -- Reply to Ken K.
 20. Re[2]: INF: German uniforms (4)
 21. help (4)
 22. Hear of Paul Revere?
 23. WWII videos for sale
 24. WEAP: Early Jets
 25. Re[2]: help
 26. INF: USAAF 1-3 APR 44
 27. INF: 8th Air Force Patches
 28. WWII German radio tech, size, range ...
 29. SPECULATION: No WWII for USA without Pearl Harbor
 30. MEDIA: America and the Holocaust
 31. EDU: Graf Zeppelin (2)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 10:40:20 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Helicopters in WWII

> An interesting example of an autogyro was the Focke-Achgelis Fa 330 BACHSTELZE
> (Water Wagtail). 200 or so examples were delivered from June 1942. These were
> designed to be towed by U-boats so as to provide an observation platform. The
> visual radius was improved from a typical 5 miles (8 km) from the conning tower
> to 25 miles (40 km) at a height of 120 m.

You don't state it explicitly, but the FA330 was unpowered, like the 60's
unpowered Bensons.

I believe that the Japanese used a number of powered Cierva type autogyros.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 10:51:03 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: SPECULATION: No WWII for USA without Pearl Harbor?

>           IMHO, the Japanese were simply replacing a European colonial
>           power with an Asian colonial power.  Maybe the last of the
>           colonial wars.

And in many ways emulating the worst of the Belgian excesses in the Congo.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 10:58:39 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Weap: B-17 vs B-24

>
>      On 2 April, 1994 Dan Ford wrote regarding the B-17/B-24 debate:
>
>      "At least at the beginning, the Pacific Theater got the inferior and
>      older weapons to hold the line while the major war effort was pressed
>      against Germany."
>
>         Could anyone please explain this statement (Dan?). I would think
>      that the United States would be more concerned for the safety of
>      "Mainland America" than the well being of the Allies in Europe. Seeing
>      as to how the West Coast was preparing for an invasion, I would think
>      that the better equipment would go to them instead of Europe.

The Philippines got outright crap for weapons and equipment, including old,
shot out M1917 rifles.  The U.S. just convinced itself that Japan would
wait to attack until we were ready, just as Stalin convinced himself that
Hitler would occupy himself elsewhere, until Stalin was ready to fight.

We were both wrong.

This seems traditional.  When I was in the 2nd Infantry Division in Korea in
'80 and '81, we had the most horrific mish mash of junk you've ever seen.  I
saw things I'd never even HEARD of.  We didn't even have MOPP suits to start.
We had bags of a tar like substance that we were supposed to boil with water
in 55gal. drums and dunk our fatigues in.  When we got MOPP suits, nobody in
Korea knew what we were supposed to do with the crap.  Chemical Corps stateside
wouldn't believe we even had it.

Most of our stuff was beat, and a lot of it didn't work.  We had an M113 that
kept busting torsion bars.  We checked and found out that it had been in
Vietnam and run over a mine.  Apparently the hull was warped.

MacArthur's comments to Roosevelt about not wanting a GI to die with a curse
of him on his lips, comes to mind.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 00:21:39 CDT
From:    Steve Alvin <salvin@HEARTLAND.BRADLEY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Weap: B-17 vs B-24

But the Phillipines did not just get "crap."  They recieved the
first squadrons of P-40E's the most advanced fighter in the inventory.
They also received 35 B-17's--the largest concentration of
the Fortress in the AAC.  They were in the process of receiving
the first B-26's and A-24's, but the war broke out first.

Of course the infantry was armed with the 1917 rifle--so was
almost every other unit in the army.  The famed M-1 was just
being introduced!

The U. S. military was unprepared for war, period.

--
Steve Alvin
salvin@heartland.bradley.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 19:07:52 +1000
From:    Mick Fauchon <ulmjf@DEWEY.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: INF: German uniforms

        Joe,

           They're not roman numerals, they're what's called "Litzen".
The tradition stems from the frogging the Frederick the Great's Guards
Regiments carried on their collars and around their button-holes (as
did some other infantry regiments).

                                                        Cheers,

                                                        Mick.

--                                                                          --
Mick Fauchon                          | Internet: ulmjf@dewey.newcastle.edu.au
Reference Section, Auchmuty Library   | Ph  (intl+61+49) 215861
University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA    | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833

On Tue, 5 Apr 1994, Barone wrote:

> Real quick question:
>
>         What is the historical significance of the Roman numeral twos on
> the collars of German tunics?  I seem to recall some Prussian tradition
> dating back to the Napoleonic era but the details escape me (not to mention
> that I'm probably misremembering!).  Thanks.
> --
> Joe Barone
> m1b@ssd.ray.com
> It's a Mark 6!  And we got her by the ass!
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 12:12:00 CET
From:    Peter de Lange <MIMHCB@RULMVS.LEIDENUNIV.NL>
Subject: re : French ships.

Hoi Silvio,
here some date about French ships, you asked for.

French Navy

============= Mogador-class  6 ships ================================

Destroyers-classed as "contre-torpilleurs"
Mogador       Mogador-class   1932-programme
                 12-1934 laid down
              09-06-1937 launched
              00-06-1938 completed
              03-06-1940 badly damaged at Oran, but was afterwards repaired.
              27-11-1942 scuttled at Toulon
Volta         Mogador-class   1934-program
                 01-1935 laid down
              26-11-1936 launched
              15-09-1938 completed
              27-11-1942 scuttled at Toulon
Desaix        Mogador-class   1938-program
                    1940 laid down
                    1946 will probably never built
                    1946, there was a Desaix, ex-German Paul Jacobi
Hoche         Mogador-class   1938-program
                    1940 laid down
                    1946 will probably never built
                    1946, there was a Hoche, this was ex-German Z-25
Marceau       Mogador-class   1938-program
                    1940 laid down
                    1946 will probably never built
                    1946, there was a Marceau, this was ex-German Z-31
Kleber        Mogador-class   1938-program
                    1940 laid down
                    1946 will probably never built
                    1946, there was a Kleber, ex-German Theodor Rieder

============= Aigle class , 8 ships ======================

Destroyers-classed as "contre-torpilleurs"
Aigle         Aigle-class    1927-programme
                   -1929 laid down
              19-02-1931 launched
                    1932 completed
              27-11-1942 scuttled at Toulon ???
Gerfaut       Aigle-class    1927-programme
                   -1929 laid down
              14-06-1930 launched
                    1932 completed
              27-11-1942 scuttled at Toulon ???
Vautour       Aigle-class    1927-programme
                   -1929 laid down
              26-08-1930 launched
                    1932 completed
              27-11-1942 scuttled at Toulon ???
Milan         Aigle-class    1927-programme
                 06-1930 laid down
              13-10-1931 launched
                    1933 completed
              09-11-1942 totally disabled at Casablanca
Cassard       Aigle-class    1928-programme
                 11-1930 laid down
              08-11-1931 launched
                    1932 completed
              27-11-1942 scuttled at Toulon ???
Kersaint      Aigle-class    1928-programme
                 09-1930 laid down
              14-11-1931 launched
                    1933 completed
              27-11-1942 scuttled at Toulon ???
Tartu         Aigle-class    1928-programme
                   -1930 laid down
              07-12-1931 launched
                    1932 completed
              27-11-1942 scuttled at Toulon ???
Vauquelin     Aigle-class    1928-programme
                   -1929 laid down
              19-02-1931 launched
                    1932 completed
              27-11-1942 scuttled at Toulon ???

============= Guepard-class , 5 ships

Destroyers-classed as "contre-torpilleurs"
Guepard       Guepard-class  1925-programme
                 02-1927 laid down
              19-04-1928 launched
                   -1929 completed
              27-11-1942 scuttled at Toulon
Lion          Guepard-class  1925-programme
                 04-1927 laid down
              05-08-1929 launched
                   -1931 completed
              27-11-1942 scuttled at Toulon
Vauban        Guepard-class  1926-programme
                    1927 laid down
              01-02-1929 launched
                   -1931 completed
              27-11-1942 scuttled at Toulon
Verdun        Guepard-class  1926-programme
                    1927 laid down
              04-07-1928 launched
                   -1930 completed
              27-11-1942 scuttled at Toulon
Valmy         Guepard-class  1926-programme
                    1927 laid down
              19-05-1929 launched
                   -1930 completed
              27-11-1942 scuttled at Toulon

============  Simoun-class , 5 ships

Simoun, Mistral, Ouragan, Tempete, Trombe
Destroyers-classed as "torpilleurs"
ordered in 1922
finished between 1926-27
These vesssels lose their speed rapidly in a seaway
Trombe was temporaly in Italian hands between Nov.1942 and Oct.1943

============= Chacal-class , 6 ships ==============================

Chacal, Jaguar, Leopard, Lynx, Panthere, Tigre
Destroyers-classed as "contre-torpilleurs"
1922 programme
finished between 1926-27
Classified on a tonnage basis, these ships would rank as cruisers
   being above 2000 tons standard displacement.
These are employed in divisions and not as flotilla leaders.
The Tigre was temporarly in Italian hands during part of 1943.
The Tigre had a complete refit during 1944,45

============  Melpomene-class , 5 ships =============================

you asked for La Pomone-class , a mixed up ??, I found only Melpomene
La Melpomene, La Flore, Bouclier, L'Incomprise, La Cordeliere
Destroyers-classed as "torpilleurs"
Provided under 1931 and 1932 programme
All completed during 1936-38
They have not proved very satisfactory in service.
In 1946 they were laid up in reserve

============  Elan-class , 9 ships ==================================

Elan, La Moqueuse, La Boudeuse, Commandant Bory, Commandant Delage,
La Capricieuse, Commandant Domine, Commandant Duboc, La Gracieuse
Minesweepers
Built under 1934,36 and 37 programme
finished between 1938-1940

============  Ardent-class , 27 ships ===============================

Dedaigneuse, Tapagueuse , etc
Gunboats
built under 1916 war programme
I found nothing about these ships in Janes'fighting ships of WWII,
so they do not exist at that time ?????

The other ships you asked for ??? I do't found them.

Are there members on the list who have data about french ships in
US harbours, I know a lot of English and Dutch warships enterd US
harbours for a complete overhaul in US docks, but only for a few
French ships.

Peter de Lange

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 12:34:00 CET
From:    Peter de Lange <MIMHCB@RULMVS.LEIDENUNIV.NL>
Subject: re : early jets.

Hoi Emmanuel, here some data about the J8M & J8N as I understand them.
it were two complete different planes from different factories.

Both were a kind of copies of German fighters.

Me-163 , rocket fighter built in Japan as :
     Mitsubishi Ki-200 Shusei for the Japanese Air Force
     no prototype finished.
     Mitsubishi J8M1 for the Japanese Navy.
     at least one prototype finished, but not flown.

Me-262 , twin engined jet fighter built in Japan as :
     Nakajima Ki-201 Karyu for the Japanese Air force.
     no prototype finished.
     Nakajima J8N1 Kikka for Japanese Navy, this was a very simplified
     version of the Ki-201, with straight wing and smaller engines.

The following is from the book "Jet Aircraft of the world" by Green

Nakajima J8N1 Kikka

span       : 32 ft 10 in.
length     : 30 ft  4 in.
wing area  : 142.14 sq.ft.
weight emp.: 5070 ib.
   loaded  : 7826 ib.
motor      : 2 x 1050 ib. Ne-20 axial-flow jet
             ( scaled down BMW-003 )
speed max  : 422 m.p.h.
range      : 345 miles
1e flight  : 7-08-1945
# built    : 2     only 1e prot flown.
                        2e prot. to USA
The Kikka was the only gas-turbine-propelled fighter to be produced
by Japan during WWII. The Kikka was designed by the Nakajima company in
colloboration with the Naval Air Research Establishment to meet a
specification for a twin-jet fighter-bomber issued by the Imperial
Japanese Navy in December 1944.
The design of the Kikka was strongly influenced by that of the Me-262,
a slightly modified version of the Me-262 was, in fact, under construction
in Japan at the end of the war under the designation Ki-201 Karyu
(Fire-Dragon) and simplicity of construction was a major feature.
The first of 2 prototypes was completed on June 25,1945, and was flown for
the first time on August 7 by Lt.Comdr.Takaoka at Kisazuru Naval Air Base.
This flight, which had a duration of eleven minutes, was successful, but
the second flight (August 11) resulted in the destruction of the
prototype.
The second prototype was not test-flown and was later taken to the USA.
Quantity production of the Kikka had been ordered in Feb.1945 and it
was planned that 49 machines would have been produced during the period
Juli-September. However, damage to the factories and shortage of
materials precluded the completion of any aircraft.

Peter de Lange

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 07:10:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: INF: USAAF 6 APR 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
THURSDAY, 6 APRIL 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CARIBBEAN (Sixth Air Force): 3d Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), VI Bomber
Command, moves from David, Panama to Howard Field, Canal Zone with B-24s; the
squadron serves as a replacement training unit.

  ZONE OF INTERIOR:  General of the Army Henry H "Hap" Arnold assumes command
of the Twentieth Air Force at Washington, DC where HQ will remain until Jul
45. Chief of Staff is Brigadier General Haywood S Hansell, Jr (currently
Deputy Chief of Air Staff), with Colonel Cecil E Combs as his deputy for
operations.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 6 B-25s damage railroad and
rolling stock at Shwebo. 80+ fighter-bombers and 2 B-25s hit troops in the
Namti area, support ground forces NE of Kamaing, damage a bridge near
Myitkyina, and hit troops, oil dumps, and supplies at Mogaung and Manywet.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, P-40s from Suichwan pound a barrack
SW of Nanchang, causing heavy damage; a B-25 strike during the night of 6/7
Apr on airfields near Canton is curtailed by bad weather; only 1 B-25 reaches
the target, dropping fragmentation bombs on revetments.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 290: 12 of 12 B-24s hit
V-weapon sites at Watten, France without loss. Escort is provided by 27 P-47s
without loss.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Units arriving in England from the
US with P-47s: 23d Fighter Squadron, 36th Fighter Group, at Kingsnorth (first
mission is 8 May); and 512th Fighter-Bomber Squadron, 406th Fighter-Bomber
Group, at Ashford (first mission is 9 May).

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): B-24s bomb the airfield at
Zagreb, Yugoslavia; numerous other B-24s and B-17s abort because of weather;
escorting fighters and the bombers claim 17 enemy fighters destroyed in
combat; 6 US aircraft are shot down.
  HQ 451st Bombardment Group (Heavy) and 724th, 725th, 726th and 727th
Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy) move from San Pancrazio and Manduria to
Castelluccio Airfield, Italy with B-24s.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s hit Perugia
Airfield while B-26s bomb a bridge and its approaches NW of Orvieto; weather
prevents other medium bomber operations; fighter-bombers attack the railroad
stations at Capronica and Maccarese, guns SE of Littoria, a road bridge E of
Pescasseroli, railroad bridges in the Arezzo area, other rail facilities in C
Italy, and small transport vessels in the Aegean Sea.
  10th Troop Carrier Squadron, 60th Troop Carrier Group, moves from
Pomigliano to Brindisi, Italy with C-47s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-24s from Kwajalein Atoll bomb
Wake Island. B-25s from Eniwetok Atoll hit Ponape Island twice. B-25s from
Abemama Island bomb Jaluit Atoll, rearm at Majuro Atoll, and hit Maloelap
Atoll during the return flight.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): 34 B-24s pound Dublon
Island, Truk Atoll. On New Britain Island, 22 B-25s bomb Lakunai Airfield and
revetment area; 30+ fighter-bombers bomb the vicinity of Toboi wharf with
incendiaries while 20+ others carry out incendiary strike on Wunapope,
causing severe destruction to several buildings; and fighters maintain a
sweep over Rabaul and New Ireland Island areas.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, P-39s, P-40s
and P-47s continue to pound coastal targets in the Wewak, Aitape, and Madang
areas and at numerous other points along the coast. B-25s bomb Koepang, Timor
Island.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 13:52:28 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVS1.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: re : early jets.

On Wed, 6 Apr 1994, Peter de Lange wrote:

> Hoi Emmanuel, here some data about the J8M & J8N as I understand them.
> it were two complete different planes from different factories.

Thanks, this is good information. I was just nitpicking: I doubt the
designation of J8N for the Kikka; I've never seen it before and I don't
think that this was official. The IJN already had used the J8M
designation, and would not normally use the J8N designation except if this
was a very similar aircraft, built for the same requirement. J9N would be
more logical.

Emmanuel

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 07:01:04 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Chuck Yeagers Kills in wwii

Hello, Gudmundur!

Chuck Yeager shot down 11 aircraft in WWII. He did not fly in Korea.

Will be in touch.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 07:05:09 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Heinz Dittmar over mach 1? Me-163v-1

Hello, again, Gudmundur!

Chuck Yeager was the first man to break the sound barrier. The Me-
163, at least from what I have read, was not designed to pierce the
sound barrier. I think it would have disintegrated if it had done so,
because the buffeting would have torn it apart. Mr. Dittmar may have
been the first to fly at 1000 km/h plus but I don't think that figure
would mean that it was fast enough to pierce the sound barrier.

Any other thoughts?

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 08:12:29 -0500
From:    "W.C. DIVENS" <ERCOUPE@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: INF: P-51 loss

News report this morning of a P-51 crash in California where
the pilot had to put down in a dairy farm cow corral.  Probably
one of the few times when the infamous final words usually heard
on cockpit voice recordings was 100% accurate.  Reports were that
the landing was effectively so soft that damage was minimal.

Anybody have more details?

Bill
N93774@vms.cis.pitt.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 15:01:00 CET
From:    Peter de Lange <MIMHCB@RULMVS.LEIDENUNIV.NL>
Subject: Re : WEAP Early Jets.

Thanks Jorge for your comment on my list of early jets.

You are right, I excluded the mixed powered planes, that means
   planes with a piston engine and a jet.
The XP-81 is included because this plane had a turboprop and a jet.
The Arado E-337, I do'nt know.
The Henschel Hs-132 is a dive bomber with the pilot in prone position,
but had never flown.
I also excluded a lot of testbeds, if someone liked it, I will
compile a list of the early testbeds for jet-engines or is that better
for the aircraft-list ??
Peter de Lange

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 10:16:31 -0400
From:    "John E. Kollar" <KILLAR@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mystery B-17

I also remember reading about a B-24 crew who saw a V-2 launched from below
them, thinking that it was an anti-aircraft weapon all the gunners opened
fire, as the story goes the V-2 flew into one of the streams from a 50cal,
took hits and blew up!  Early Star Wars :)

John Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 11:09:52 -0400
From:    "John E. Kollar" <KILLAR@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hs-293

Besides the American 'Azon' bomb, there was also the 'Bat'
anti shipping missile, radar head.  And also a homing torpedoe nicknamed
the 'Cutie' because he liked to get up close to people larger than he
was :), used by an American sub to kill a Japanese Escort craft, I
think the sub was the Batfish.

                                John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 11:49:42 -0400
From:    "John E. Kollar" <KILLAR@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Weap: B-17 vs B-24

        Well, both.

True the West coast was preparing for an invasion, but this was done to
give them something to do.  There never was a realistic chance that the
Japanese could invade the West Coast.  The first thing they would have had
to do would be to take Hawaii, toherwise any kind of supply route they would
have set up would have had an awfully big crick in it.  Also conmsider
the size of the Pacific, even for the Island attacks, incredible fleets
of sepcialized craft were needed to supply what was needed for an invasion,
the Japanese had none of this support.  Also the American pacific fleet,
as longf as it was aflot, meant that the Japanese could not afford to send
an invasion fleet in harms way.  And of course American subs would have
had a field day with all that shipping on the surface, as it was by
1944 they were chasing cargo ships INTO harbous to get to them, and
Subs even started to specifically go after Japanese destroyers,
one sunk five DDs in one patrol!
        The PTO got the older stuff because of the decision to do
Europe first, but even with second hand stuff and few land troops,
they managed to push the Japanese back, and by the time the nation
could turn around it's full might against Japan, Japan was already
beaten.
                        John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 10:39:00 -0400
From:    DAVID WILMA 415-744-2485 <WILMA.DAVID@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV>
Subject: Defending the Philippines

          The discussion of the Europe First strategy has reminded me that
          IMHO the PI are basically indefensible.  Everyone who has
          proposed to invade those islands, especially Luzon, has made it.
          I was not troubled at the closure of Clark and Subic (the volcano
          decided that) because it an invader chose to close them, he
          could.

          Even though some of the best U.S. assets (P-40Es, B-17s etc.)
          were sent there in the last months of 1941, it was a waste.  The
          multitude of amphibious landing sites and the proximity to Taiwan
          made the U.S. forces sitting ducks.  In 1944-45 the same thing
          happened to the Japanese.

          As brilliant as MacArthur was, he was no team player and did not
          grasp that in the clinch, FDR had to choose to deal with Germany
          while there was still time.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 12:02:28 -0400
From:    "John E. Kollar" <KILLAR@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Weap: B-17 vs B-24

But, on the other hand they got most of the P-38s becuase the
Europe commanders wanted other planes, and also the Navy recieved
the excellant Hellcat and Corsair midway through the war.  In the
end though, it was not the planes themselves, but the pilots and the
tactics that beat Japanese airpower, it was the Wildcat that
held back the Japanese, and that put the first holes in the
supply of Japanese pilots (the construction of the Zero caused
many pilot deaths), and eventually just numbers triumphed, although
technology helped alot, but by the end, even Biplanes could have bombed
Japan as there was none to sporadic fighter defenses.
                        John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 12:06:34 -0400
From:    "John E. Kollar" <KILLAR@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU>
Subject: Re: D-DAY:FS

Talk about misunderstandings in the media, I live on Long Island in
New York, home of Joey Buttafuocoooisodudooi...(you know who) Amy Fisher,
and the Radilroad Gunman, everyone else in America thinks we are all
crazy, gun toting, call-girl using, wakos who spend all our spare time
shopping.  People in Ohio found out about a shooting on Long Island
before I did.
        Oy
                        John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 12:28:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: RCAF

I received e-mail from Joe Churman in Manitoba yesterday with a comment and
a question.  I'm glad he did this because it gives me an opportunity to
vent my spleen although I am approaching the age when I don't remember if I
have a spleen.

< Stuff deleted.
<On a related matter, I've been meaning to ask you for some time if you
<know of any compilations of daily British air and/or naval activity similar to
<the wonderful summaries that you've been posting to the List. Any ideas?
<
<Thanks,
<
<Joe

I am glad to talk to a serving Canadian officer because it gives me a
chance to castigate you Canadians about something that has bothered me a
long time.  To put it another way, you Canadians piss me off.  Why you
rightfully ask?  Simple, the ROYAL CANADIAN AIR FORCE, and that is the only
Canadian unit I am familiar with and therefore the only one I will talk
about, had one of the greatest combat records in the world during World War
II and you guys say nothing about it; to top it off, you let the Brits take
all the credit for what you guys did and that's what pisses me off most of
all!

Lets look at the record.

1. On 1 Sep 39, the RCAF was a joke!  There were 8 Permanent Force squadrons
and 12 Auxiliary squadrons.  No. 1 (Fighter) Squadron at Calgary had
Hurricane Mk Is but the other 7 Permanent Force squadrons were equipped
with junk!  Of the Auxiliary Squadrons, 4 did not have any aircraft and the
other 8 had biplane trainers.  You guys were in worse shape than the US
Army Air Corps!

2. On 6 Jun 44, things had changed a little, i.e, there were:
 - In Canada, 23 squadrons, i.e.:
   - 13 bomber reconnaissance squadrons with Venturas, Cansos and Liberators
     plus 1 that was TDY in Iceland with Cansos,
   - 6 fighter squadrons with Hurricanes and Kittyhawks,
   - 2 communications squadrons with various aircraft, and
   - 2 composite squadrons with various aircraft
 - In England and Ireland, there were 38 squadrons, i.e.:
   - 14 bomber squadrons with Halifax's and Lancasters,
   - 10 fighter squadrons with Spitfires,
   - 3 fighter bomber squadrons with Typhoons,
   - 3 fighter reconnaissance squadrons with Spitfires and Mustangs,
   - 3 general reconnaissance squadrons with Sunderland IIIs and Wellingtons,
   - 3 night fighter squadrons with Beaufighters and Mosquitos,
   - 1 intruder squadron with Mosquitos, and
   - 1 torpedo bomber squadron with Wellingtons and Albacores.
 - 1 general reconnaissance squadron in Ceylon with Catalinas
 - 1 fighter squadron in Italy with Spitfires

At the end of the war, the RCAF was scheduled to contribute 8 squadrons
with Lancaster B Mk Xs and 3 transport squadrons with Liberators to ship
out to the Pacific and bomb Japan; the war ended before the troop left
Canada.

A total of 249,662 men and women served in the RCAF during WWII and 93,844 of
them served overseas, nearly 60% of them in RAF UNITS!!!!!  At least 1 in 4
of the fighter pilots in the Battle of Malta were Canadian; 20% of Coastal
Command were Canadian; at the end of the war, 25% of RAF Bomber Command were
Canadian.  17,100 members of the RCAF were killed, 2 won the VC and four
won George Crosses.  THAT IS A RECORD TO BE DAMNED PROUD OF AND YOU PEOPLE
PISS ME OFF BECAUSE YOU NEVER MENTION IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Closer to my home, in 1942 and 1943 RCAF units served under the USAAF's
Eleventh Air Force in Alaska and the Aleutian Islands.  RCAF ("X") Wing was
formed at Elmendorf Field, Anchorage on 2 Jun 42 as part of the RCAF
reinforcement to the USAAF in Alaska and flew air defense and anti-shipping
missions until 15 Sep 43. Under this wing, the following squadrons operated
from Alaska and the Aleutian Islands and the airmen won 8 US Air Medals:

  No. 8 (Bomber Reconnaissance) Squadron with Bolingbroke Mk IVs
  No. 14 (Fighter) Squadron with Kittyhawk Mk Is and P-40K-1-CUs
  No. 111 (Fighter) Squadron with Kittyhawk Mk Is and P-40K-1-CUs

RCAF ("Y") Wing was formed at Annette Island, Alaska on 14 Jun 42 and was
employed in the defense of Prince Rupert, BC, the main supply harbor for US
forces in Alaska until disbanded on 18 Nov 43.  Under this wing were the
following squadrons flying from Annette Island:

  No. 118 (Fighter) Squadron with Kittyhawk Mk Is
  No. 135 (Fighter) Squadron with Hurricane Mk XIIs
  No. 149 (Bomber Reconnaissance) Squadron with Ventura GR Mk Vs

Every air force operated hand-me-down aircraft but you guys had two
winners.  Between Dec 40 and Dec 41, No. 118 (Fighter) Squadron flew Grumman
Goblins (equivalent to the USN Grumman FF-1 two-seat biplane) from Rockcliffe,
Ontario and then flew air-defense missions from Dartmouth, Nova Scotia.  And
then look at the odyssey of 20 ex-USAAF Douglas B-18A Bolos transferred to
the RCAF in 1940 as Douglas Digbys.  They equipped No. 10 (Bomber
Reconnaissance) Squadron between Apr 40 and Apr 43 when they flew ASW missions
from Halifax and Dartmouth, Nova Scotia and Gander, Newfoundland.   They were
then passed off to No. 161 (Bomber Reconnaissance) Squadron who flew them
between May 43 and Jan 44 from Dartmouth, NS.

And then there was Korea.  On 25 Jun 50, the RCAF was down to 9 Permanent
Force and 10 Auxiliary squadrons.  Two Permanent Force squadrons had
Vampire Mk 3s and the rest operated WWII prop jobs (Lancasters, Cansos and
Dakotas); 5 of the Auxiliary squadrons had Vampire Mk 3s and the rest had
Harvards and Mitchells.  Shades of 1939!  No RCAF units served in Korea but
between Nov 50 and Jul 53, 22 RCAF pilots were attached to the USAF Fifth Air
Force and flew North American F-86 Sabres.  Nine RCAF pilots were credited
with 9-2-10 MiG-15s; the USAF awarded these 22 airmen 9 Distinguished Flying
Crosses and 4 Air Medals.  Thirteen medals for 22 airmen; not bad!

And then when I was in the USAF in the late 50s, we formed another outfit
called the North American Air Defense Command (NORAD) which has done a
pretty good job for almost 40 years!

Let me say it one more time!

THE ROYAL CANADIAN AIR FORCE HAS A RECORD THAT ANYONE WHO IS CONVERSANT
WITH WORLD WAR II REALIZES IS SOMETHING TO BE DAMNED PROUD OF AND YOU PEOPLE
PISS ME OFF BECAUSE YOU NEVER MENTION IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YOU GOTTA TOOT YOUR OWN HORN OR YOU WILL BE RUN OVER!!!

Well, here is one Yank who is lifting the lid of secrecy and letting the
world (or at least this list) know that the RCAF was a major force in WWII
and it is about time they got the credit they deserve!

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 12:15:16 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: INF: UK reading rooms

Thought the list might find this of interest. Haven't explored it yet, so
I don't know what's on it, etc.

Larry J


Forwarded message:
> From defence-all-request@mailbase.ac.uk Wed Apr  6 09:27:41 1994
> X-Version: Mailbase (TM) Enhanced List Manager Version 2.3
> Date: Wed, 06 Apr 1994 11:01:50 EDT
> From: GLEN SEGELL <udrj004@bay.cc.kcl.ac.uk>
> To: defence-all@mailbase.ac.uk
> Message-Id: <0097C8C4.CFAEE580.23566@bay.cc.kcl.ac.uk>
> Subject: new services
> X-List: defence-all@uk.ac.mailbase
> Reply-To: GLEN SEGELL <udrj004@bay.cc.kcl.ac.uk>
> Sender: defence-all-request@mailbase.ac.uk
> Precedence: list
>
> telnet rsl.ox.ac.uk
> login: lynx
>
> The above provides a www client with extensive links.
>
> The British Library OPAC is now available to any site which has JANET IP
> connectivity, and a 486 PC running Windows. A software disk is required.
> If any-one is intersted in testing this out please contact me. The OPAC
> is the same service available in the Reading rooms of the BL in London
>
>
> Glen Segell
> Department of War Studies
> e-mail: g.segell@kcl.ac.uk
> tel:  0956 304012
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 12:58:15 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: Hs-293

>
> Besides the American 'Azon' bomb, there was also the 'Bat'
> anti shipping missile, radar head.  And also a homing torpedoe nicknamed
> the 'Cutie' because he liked to get up close to people larger than he
> was :), used by an American sub to kill a Japanese Escort craft, I
> think the sub was the Batfish.

Acoustic homing on the torpedo?

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 11:52:19 CDT
From:    Michael P LaForge <mlaforge@SAVANNA-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: 84th Infantry Division - The Railsplitters

 }
Greetings WWII netters!!
                        I am seeking any and all information on
the 84th Infantry Division "The Railsplitters" campaigns during
the war years. I know they trained in the South (what a surprise)
and went to the ETO. Specifically interested in squad  and platoon level
actions and or any memoirs or written accounts of the unit.
Please reply directly to me. Anything gleaned of interest to all
will of course be reposted immediately. Thanks.

******************************************************************************
* Mike LaForge, GS-12, QASAS                                                 *
* U.S. Army Technical Center for Explosive Safety (USATCES)                  *
* Explosive Safety Logistics Division (ESL)                                  *
* Defense Environmental Restoration Program - Formerly Used Defense Sites    *
* (DERP FUDS)                                                                *
* DSN: 585-8762  FAX: 585-8769  COMM: 815-273-8762                           *
******************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 13:05:21 -0500
From:    mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: Spain's Franco and "Killerati" -- Reply to Ken K.

Ken,

     I suspect the Communists would have been infinitely worse,
had they won the Spanish Civil War.  They were already devouring
themselves, as it was.  Westerners couldn't believe that, in the
midst of desperate fighting, the (Moscow-directed) Communists
were executing/assassinating non-Stalinists.  See "Intellectuals
and Assassins:  Annals of Stalin's `killerati' [European intellec-
tuals who aided forerunner of the KGB in terrorist activities],"
NEW YORK TIMES BOOK REVIEW 24Jan88, pp. 3+

     Western intellectuals, some of whom were in Sigmund Freud's
circle, also helped frame Soviet Marshal Tukhachevskii, so that
Stalin could have him purged.  Stephen Schwartz, the article's
author, remarks at the viciousness of intellectuals given
political/assassination powers.

     The now-famous quote by Vladislav Krasnov, in his RUSSIA
BEYOND COMMUNISM (p. 187?), about Western intellectuals enthused
about the Russian people being experimented upon by Marxist-
Leninists -- the operative euphemism being "social engineering."

     Better Franco won than the "killerati."

     Incidentally, Peter Beal, the book by Keith Sword is THE
SOVIET TAKEOVER OF THE POLISH EASTERN PROVINCES, 1939-41, St.
Martin's Press, 1991.  It contains chapters by specialists,
like John Erickson's piece on the Soviet Army's military
operations against the Poles.  (This is the piece wherein
John acknowledged Soviet responsibility for Katyn, unequivo-
cally.)

     Personally, I think the Vietnam generation in this
country is rife with "killerati."  They still think they were
right about (pushing for) our desertion of the Indochinese.
"The Killing Fields" didn't seem to have daunted their self-
righteousness in the least.

     If you think Tukhachevski and the 33,000 Red Army officers
purged with him were "politically incorrect," imagine what our
zealots would like to do to our national/domestic security
people who have been trying to keep a lid on South and Central
America!

     The pressures continue to build ...

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 11:15:30 PDT
From:    Alan Hepburn <alan@BERLIOZ.NSC.COM>
Subject: Re: RCAF

Jack McKillop praises the RCAF and their role in WWII and, on
behalf of my father, an old WO3 with the 6th Bomb Group, 424
Squadron (Bluenose Squadron), I must say "Thank you!".

On a related note:  does anybody know how to get "biographical"
information on an RCAF squadron?  I'd love to have a book on the
history of my Dad's unit.  I know he was stationed at Croft
Air Base, and flew pathfinder missions (he was a wireless operator
in a Lanc), but that's all I know.  Alas, he passed away 11 years
ago, so I can't pump him for information.

Thanks,

---

Alan Hepburn            "Freedom is increasingly defined as the accumulation
National Semiconductor   of rights and entitlements, and as a license for any
Santa Clara, Ca          form of self-gratification."
alan@berlioz.nsc.com                                       Zbigniew Brzezinski

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 12:23:11 CST
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re[2]: INF: German uniforms

I thought litzen was the braid around the collar that NCO's wore.  All
enlisted wore the same collar tabs.  Thos enlisted Unterofficier an
above wore litzen on their collar to show they were nsco's, as well as
braid specific to their rank on their shoulder boards.  Officers wore a
larger version of the collar tabs with no litzen.  I believe
Stabsfeldwebels wore officer's tabs, and their SFW boards--they were
considered quasi commissioned.  For those of you who don;t know, a SFW
is below that of Leutnant, but above all other NCO's.

Damn, which box are those books in....

TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 13:27:18 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: RCAF

> I received e-mail from Joe Churman in Manitoba yesterday with a comment and
> a question.  I'm glad he did this because it gives me an opportunity to
> vent my spleen although I am approaching the age when I don't remember if I
> have a spleen.

I know I don't... Someone wanted to take it a few years ago and I let them.
:-)

> Well, here is one Yank who is lifting the lid of secrecy and letting the
> world (or at least this list) know that the RCAF was a major force in WWII
> and it is about time they got the credit they deserve!

We've got a Harvard Mark IV (Canadian Car and Foundry Built AT-6D)... Will
that help?  (Of course, it also happens to be in Minnesota, not Canada... :-)

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 12:09:07 PST
From:    "Jones, Scott T." <sjones@CCLINK.LOGICON.COM>
Subject: Re: RCAF

     Jack;

     I think that true class and respect comes not from bellowing aloud how
     great you are nor how well you did, but rather in the tranquil and
     quiet reflection of knowing you did what had to be done and you did it
     well. Anybody can blow there own horn, but it takes a person (group)
     of great character and courage to say nothing and let someone else
     blow the horn in your honor. My hat is off to the RCAF for a job well
     done and to their dignity in not "shoving it down the throats" of
     others. In the meantime, Jack, don't get "...pissed off..." about it,
     instead, admire the fact that there still exists a level of class and
     respect such as that which is exercised by the Canadians.

     Scott Jones
     Sjones@LOGICON.COM

     That will be another two cents please...

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 19:59:04 MET-1
From:    Bognar Attila <MOTEL@BTKSTUD.JPTE.HU>
Subject: help

Please anybody, I might be ignorant but let me know what on Earth
is IMHO standing for?

Thanks in advance.

All the best,

Attila  motel@btkstud.jpte.hu

PS.: Look at my new address, please.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 13:17:25 CDT
From:    jesse carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject: Hear of Paul Revere?

Hey guys on WW2 ;

Ever hear of a list of billboards called 'Paul Revere'?
I saw this on the tellie.

Any leads?

Jesse Carnes
LSU
Baton Rouge
NOTJIC@LSUVM.SNCC.LSU.EDU

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 16:31:23 -0400
From:    Daniel Ford <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>
Subject: Re: RCAF

On Wed, 6 Apr 1994, Alan Hepburn wrote:

> On a related note:  does anybody know how to get "biographical"
> information on an RCAF squadron?  I'd love to have a book on the
> history of my Dad's unit.  I know he was stationed at Croft

I've seen a few. Telnet locis.loc.gov and you will get the screen of the
Library of Congress Information System. Go thru the menu to get books,
then all books (both US recent and foreign-old), then type b royal
canadian air force or b rcaf or b world war, 1939-1945--Aerial
Operations, Canadian, and see what comes up.

B for browse. D for displaying what you get. If you screw up, start
again. It only works when the main reading room is open, which is much of
the time.

Cheers - Dan Ford   <e-mail: dan.ford@unh.edu>
                    <postal: 433 Bay Road, Durham NH 03824 USA>
                    <voice/fax: +1-603-868-5850>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 16:36:25 -0400
From:    Daniel Ford <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>
Subject: WWII videos for sale

I used these videos in research and would like them to go to
somebody who'd enjoy them:

"Way of the Warhawk" - The Curtiss-Wright training film for the
P-40, plus Ronald Reagan as a new fighter pilot in "Recognition
of the Japanese Zero" (Historic Aviation; films are from WWII)

"China Crisis" and "Angels in Overalls" - WWII documentaries (ARP
Video's Global Military Action series)

"The Call to Glory: Chennault and the Flying Tigers" - The
authorized version of the AVG legend, with Duane Schultz as on-
camera historian; some good WWII footage (J.B. Media, 1990)

"Martin B-26 Marauder" - (Pacific Arts Flight series, 1989)

$30 takes them all, shipped by UPS or Priority Mail. Send e-mail
to confirm they're still available.

Cheers - Dan Ford   <e-mail: dan.ford@unh.edu>
                    <postal: 433 Bay Road, Durham NH 03824 USA>
                    <voice/fax: +1-603-868-5850>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 15:42:48 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: help

Hello, Attila!


IMHO stands for In My Honest Opinion.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 15:29:20 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: 84th Infantry Division - The Railsplitters

Hello, Mike!

I can supply you with all you need on that outfit. I will post it to
you tomorrow if someone hasn't already gotten it to you.

More later.

Terry


Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 15:59:50 EST
From:    Jorge Merino <jmerino@VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject: WEAP: Early Jets

Peter de Lange wrote:

> I also excluded a lot of testbeds, if someone liked it, I will
> compile a list of the early testbeds for jet-engines or is that better
> for the aircraft-list ??

That list will be very interesting. Remember also the early Leduc ramjets.
The first were tested in the 30s (ground tests only). Only after the war,
Leduc could continue his studies and developed his post-war designs (0.10,
0.20 and 0.21). These designs were intended as interceptors, where the cockpit
was located at the center of the jet intake, with the pilot in prone position.
I think the first Leduc ramjets were tested in some kind of ground testbeds.

Have a nice day,

Jorge

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 14:46:16 -0700
From:    Jim Benn <jrb@AGAVIION.AGFX.COM>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Weap: B-17 vs B-24

The answer may be obvious to some, but not to me:
Why weren't B-29s used in the ETO?

BTW (by the way), in answer to a separate question
IMHO means, IMHO, In My Humble Opinion.



 *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*> Jim Benn  [jrb@agaviion.agfx.com] <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=*
 |-=[        Auto-Graphics, Inc.       ]=[      /~~)       /~~)           ]=-|
 |-=[        8 West Main Street        ]=[     (__(_UTO - (__/RAPHICS     ]=-|
 |-=[        Niantic, CT  06357        ]=[              .___/             ]=-|
 *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*>  PHONE: 800-733-6939 = FAX: 203-691-0183  <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=*

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 17:04:00 CDT
From:    Roger Safian <ROGER@NUACC.ACNS.NWU.EDU>
Subject: Re: help

Terry and, Attila,

> IMHO stands for In My Honest Opinion.

I think you'll find more people use it for In My Humble Opinion,
at least that's my not so humble opinion!  :-)

                                              Roger

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 15:24:55 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@CCLINK.LOGICON.COM>
Subject: Re[2]: help

Honest?  I always thought it meant "Humble".  Now there's a debate for you!
:-)

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
P.O. Box 1420
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________


IMHO stands for In My Honest Opinion.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 17:39:43 EDT
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor,
         Marist Coll" <JZML@MARISTB.BITNET>
Subject: Re: help

Atilla - it means "In my humble opinion." Regards - Jonah
>Please anybody, I might be ignorant but let me know what on Earth
>is IMHO standing for?
>
>Thanks in advance.
>
>All the best,
>
>Attila  motel@btkstud.jpte.hu
>
>PS.: Look at my new address, please.

Jonah Triebwasser
Adjunct Instructor
Marist College
Dyson Building (Adult Education)
Poughkeepsie, New York12601
Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
E-Mail: jzml@maristb.marist.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 15:46:13 -0400
From:    Ron Babuka <wrb1@CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: Re: INF: USAAF 1-3 APR 44

>
>EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)
>
>  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 287: 440 bombers are
>dispatched to bomb the chemical industry at Ludwigshafen, Germany (the
>largest in Europe).
>  1. The 245 B-17s dispatched of the lead force abandon the mission over the
>French coast due to heavy clouds; 7 B-17s are damaged.
>  2. The 195 B-24s in the second force became widely dispersed and bomb
>targets of opportunity; 101 hit Pforzheim; 38 hit Schaffhausen, Switzerland;
>17 hit Strasbourg, France; and 9 hit Grafenhausen; Schaffhausen and
>Strasbourg were mistaken as German towns; they claim 1-1-0 Luftwaffe aircraft;
>12 B-24s are lost, 3 damaged beyond repair and 42 damaged; casualties are 9


        This posting brings up a couple of questions - How frequently was
neutral territory "hit" in this manner?  How many casualties were suffered?
 What was the "normal" reaction of the nuetral nations?  Were statements or
reperations offered to the neutrals by the Allies?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka                                         National Warplane Museum
Cornell University                                 Geneseo, New York
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 17:50:41 -0500
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: INF: German uniforms

> I thought litzen was the braid around the collar that NCO's wore.  All
> enlisted wore the same collar tabs.  Thos enlisted Unterofficier an
> above wore litzen on their collar to show they were nsco's, as well as
> braid specific to their rank on their shoulder boards.  Officers wore a
> larger version of the collar tabs with no litzen.

Hi Tim,

The braid is called "Tresse".  The litzen were worn by all German
army personnel except for general officers who had their own
distinctive collar tabs.  Shore bases Kriegsmarine folks also had
these kind of litze tabs as did most of the police formations.

Army personnel that departed from the litze pattern were general and
sonderfuehrer ranks.  Additionally, the administrative and high
command branches of the army had litze with "teeth" or serrated edges
to the central bars.  Admin tabs of senior officers had 7 "teeth" and
officers of the OKH and OKW (Oberkommando der Heer & Wehrmacht
respectively) had tabs that had 13 "teeth" on their litzen.

The Stabsfeldwebel, often called "Der Spiess", had double rows of
tresse on the cuff to denote being the first shirt which being a
Spiess meant.  Der Spiess could be lower rank than the Stabsfeldwebel
too.

There was a warrant officer and officer candidate designation too but
the Stabsfeldwebel was not considered an officer any more than a US
Army Command Sergeant Major would and never let them hear you say
they are officers!  They will generally abruptly correct you by
saying they *work* for a living.  :-)

Exceptions abound in the German Army.  Generalfeldmarschal Gerd von
Rundstedt opted not to use the distinctive red general's collar tabs
and kept the parade dress Litzen of the infantry officer on his
marschal's uniform.  His shoulderboards also had the regimental
numbers 18 affixed over his crossed batons indicating that even
though he commanded much larger formations he was the honorary
commander of the 18th Infantry Regiment (a colonel's command).
Rommel even wore British dust goggles on his visor hat - where will it
all end....... :-D

> I believe
> Stabsfeldwebels wore officer's tabs, and their SFW boards--they were
> considered quasi commissioned.  For those of you who don;t know, a SFW
> is below that of Leutnant, but above all other NCO's.

I think what you are alluding to here is the "Portepee Unteroffizier"
who were NCOs that were permitted to wear officer quality bullion
breast eagles on their uniforms and the silver cords on their visor
hats rather than the standard leather strap of the EM and other NCOs.
In theory they were still not to wear bullion hat insignia but they
did anyway.

If you had cured your "throat ache", ie won the Knights Cross of the
Iron Cross, you could get away with a lot of things.

Not trying to be nit-picky but this is a topic that is near and dear
to my heart.  I have collected these uniforms for almost 20 years now
and have learned a thing or two in this pursuit.  Still learning
though....

Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 16:32:48 CST
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: INF: 8th Air Force Patches

I'm not much into insignia myself, so I'm asking the list.  The 8th Air
Force had two patches.  The early war patch is commonly called the
"stubby wing" patch, because the wings spread out and do not go high on
the 8.  The later patch the wings are closer to the 8.

Why did the patch change, and when did it change?  Was it considered a
status symbol to have a stubby wing patch, because it showed you weren;t
a green member of the 8th.  Were troops required to change from the old
style to the new style when it appeared?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Akira---could you contact me--thanks---

TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 15:22:40 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET>
Subject: Re: RCAF

Alan's comment about wanting a book about his father's unit, and his regret
that he cannot now question about his experiences in the war struck a
responsive chord in me.

(Alan, I hope you will not take offense at my personal reference.)

Last year, I became acquainted with three Czechs who had escaped occupied
Germany and went to England to fly against the Germans.  I have tape
recorded the stories of three of these _quiet heroes_ and hope to include
them in a book I am writing about the new Czech Republic.  Needless to say,
their stories are fascinating, and give considerable insight not into their
own lives but also into the times in which they lived.

I believe very strongly that the decade of the 40s is rapidly
passing beyond the memories and the very lives of those who lived through it.
As one who has been interested in oral history for some time, I have just
begun research on a book about those who built and flew airplanes during
the war.  The book will rely heavily on oral histories.  So far, I have
made several tapes, and hope to complete a great many more before my
project is finished.

I realize that reading history books is interesting, but I feel strongly
that the _quiet heroes_ among us need to be recognized and remembered quickly
before it is too late.  I have found local historical societies and museums
very much intersted in archiving these tapes, which I hope to donate when
I am finished with them.

Tomorrow, I have the honor of meeting Colonel Travis Hoover and look forward
to hearing his story in person.  As I talk with him, I will be thinking
about the people who can no longer tell their story.

I hope that some of you will also recognize -- or have recognized already --
the value of tape recording the story of your father or mother or neighbor
who served in World War II.  It will soon be too late.

Thank you for indulging me...


  =========================================================================
  | DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
  |                                  | Computers in Business & Education. |
  | Recently returned from my second | Education:  Curriculum development.|
  |   extended stay in Prague.       |    International Education, TEFL.  |
  | Working on second book about     | Central Europe:  Post revolution   |
  |   Prague and new Czech Republic  |    economic, social, political     |
  |   and a book about building and  |    problems and opportunities.     |
  |   flying bombers in WWII.        |                                    |
  | E-Mail:                          | Free lance writing and editing.    |
  |   USA:  BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET    | Stamp collecting.                  |
  =========================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 23:17:06 +0000
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <gummihe@ISMENNT.IS>
Subject: WWII German radio tech, size, range ...

Hey all

        I would greatly appreciate if someone here could tell me
something detailed about German radio/sensor technology in wwii.
I am looking for info on CrossAtlantic transmitter; How big, size,
range, battery consumption etc..

        Like could a sensor have been built to sence approaching
propeller sounds (convoy) that would then transmit a pre-recorded
message to Germany? And how long would that device run on WWII
batteries? I am looking for a combo radio-sensor/battery that would last
like a month or two (such a device would be no trouble at all in our
days but then?).


        Huff-Duff searches: How long time did the Allied need to get a
firm fix on a radio message from a U.boat, 5 mins?

        Also, could the sonars of the WWII hunters have been "drowned"
in high frequency noise from a U.boat decoy? The PillenWerfer was German
decoy but I have no info on it.

This is a tall order I know but info would be great :)



Gudmundur J. Helgason                      E-mail:    gummihe@ismennt.is
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Patriotism is the arrogance of assuming that your country is the greatest
 one there is, simply because *you* were born there". So, Iceland rules! :)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 18:39:35 EST
From:    "CARL WERNKE (TCWERNC@VCCSCENT)" <TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET>
Subject: Re: SPECULATION: No WWII for USA without Pearl Harbor

 To: Multiple recipients of list WWII (WWII-L@UBVM.BITNET)

 Stan Koper writes:
 |--> But did the U.S. have some sort of mutual defense treaty with the Dutch
 |--> or with the British, vis_a_vis the Southwest Pacific area ?

 Sidney Kitchel wrires:
 |-->There was a so-called ABCD alliance

 The real planning problem was what to do about the regions known to be coveted
 by Japan, where everyone expected her to strike first. The vital planning
 conference for the Far East took place at Singapore between 21 and 27 April
 1941.  Precided over by the British Commander in Chief Far East (Air Chief
 Marshall Sir Robert Brooke-Popham), it was attended by Commander in Chief
 China (Vice Admiral Sir Geoffrey Layton RN), Chief of the General Staff
 Netherlands East Indies (Major General H.ter Poorten), representatives of the
 Australian, New Zeland and British Indian armed forces, and Captain William R.
 Purnell, Admiral Hart's chief of staff (CinC Asiatic Fleet).

 Obstacles to arriving at a working "ADB" (American-Dutch-British Commonwealth)
 War Plan for Far East were insuperable. But in the Far East at the time of the
 Singapore Conference everything was fluid and uncertain except the fact of
 Japan's war with China. Would Japan continue her southward advance, and at
 whose expense ? If she did, where would she strike first -- at Manila or
 Hong Kong , at Thailand or the Malay Peninsula, at Borneo or some of the
 Dutch possessions ? Nobody then believed the Japanese to be capable of more
 than one or possibly two such thrusts at a time, although attacks on the
 Portuguese Timor or French New Caledonia were regarded as distinct
 probabilities.

 The ABD Conference at Singapore dissolved on 27 April 1941 after a week's
 session and agreeing upon a combined operating plan of local defense forces
 only in case war came with Japan.


  The conference also made certain recommendations to the governments
  represented, of which the most important was to fight Japan in any one
  of the following contingencies:--
  A "direct act of war" by Japan armed forces against American, British or
  Dutch territory.
  A movement of Japanese forces into Thailand west of the meridian of Bangkok
  or south of the Kra Isthmus.
  Occupation of Portuguese Timor or the Loyalty Islands off New Caledonia.

  The "ADB Plan," at the conclusion and resolutions of the Singapore
  Conference were called.

  Excerpts were obtained from *The Rising Sun In The Pacific, 1931--April 1942*
  Volume III, by Samuel Eliot Morison.

  Carl Wernke
  TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 16:26:21 PDT
From:    Alan Hepburn <alan@BERLIOZ.NSC.COM>
Subject: Re: RCAF

Thanks for the info, Dan.  I'll give the Information System
a try!

regards,

Alan Hepburn

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 19:09:50 -0500
From:    Jeff Dingbaum <dingbaum@HEP.NET>
Subject: MEDIA: America and the Holocaust

I know this is short notice for almost everyone on the list, but Chicago`s
PBS station, channel 11 is broadcasting a show at 9:00pm called America and
the Holocaust: Deceit and Indifference.  Judging solely from the TV guide
it looks interesting to me, considering I just saw Shindler`s List.  Please
note, this is just an announcement to inform everyone about a WWII topic.
I am not trying to fan any flames. ;)

Jeff Dingbaum
dingbaum@hep.net

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 19:23:50 -0500
From:    Jeff Dingbaum <dingbaum@HEP.NET>
Subject: EDU: Graf Zeppelin

Can anyone clear up a question that I have?  I am reading "The Rise and Fall
of the Third REich" by William L. Shirer.  On pages 60 and 61 there is a
picture of the aircraft carrier Graf Zeppelin.  The quotation on the following
page says:
        "The New Germany." The launch ceremony for the aircraft carrier
        Graf Zeppelin in 1938.  In the event the ship was never completed
        during the war.

The second sentence does not make any sense.  "In the event?"  WAS this
ship ever completed?  Does anyone know the scoop?

Jeff Dingbaum
dingbaum@hep.net

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 00:44:51 +0000
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <gummihe@ISMENNT.IS>
Subject: Re: EDU: Graf Zeppelin

>
> Can anyone clear up a question that I have?  I am reading "The Rise and Fall
> of the Third REich" by William L. Shirer.  On pages 60 and 61 there is a
> picture of the aircraft carrier Graf Zeppelin.  The quotation on the following
> page says:
>         "The New Germany." The launch ceremony for the aircraft carrier
>         Graf Zeppelin in 1938.  In the event the ship was never completed
>         during the war.
>
> The second sentence does not make any sense.  "In the event?"  WAS this
> ship ever completed?  Does anyone know the scoop?
>
> Jeff Dingbaum
> dingbaum@hep.net
>
I think the completion of the ship was cancelled during 1941 or 1942,
partly due to Goerings resistance to having the Kriegsmarine form it's
owbn flight wing.  I believe it was "parked" somewhere in the Baltic.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 10:51:47 +1000
From:    Mick Fauchon <ulmjf@DEWEY.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: INF: German uniforms

        Tim,

           My understanding is that Litzen are the tabs, the braid lace,
as on the collars of Unteroffiziere, is referred to as "Tressen", but
I'll delve deeper into it when I get home tonight.
        BTW, the original purpose of the Litzen was to stop the metal
buttons wearing the rough cloth of the uniform away at the button-holes.

                                                                Cheers,

                                                                Mick.


--                                                                          --
Mick Fauchon                          | Internet: ulmjf@dewey.newcastle.edu.au
Reference Section, Auchmuty Library   | Ph  (intl+61+49) 215861
University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA    | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833

On Wed, 6 Apr 1994, Tim not Timothy Scherrer wrote:

> I thought litzen was the braid around the collar that NCO's wore.  All
> enlisted wore the same collar tabs.  Thos enlisted Unterofficier an
> above wore litzen on their collar to show they were nsco's, as well as
> braid specific to their rank on their shoulder boards.  Officers wore a
> larger version of the collar tabs with no litzen.  I believe
> Stabsfeldwebels wore officer's tabs, and their SFW boards--they were
> considered quasi commissioned.  For those of you who don;t know, a SFW
> is below that of Leutnant, but above all other NCO's.
>
> Damn, which box are those books in....
>
> TAS
>
> ************************************************************************
> *  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
> *  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
> *  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
> *  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
> *  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
> ************************************************************************
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 12:36:30 +1000
From:    Mick Fauchon <ulmjf@DEWEY.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: INF: German uniforms

        Thanks, Bill. That was everything I would have said if I'd had
my references handy (toungue-in-cheek).
        I didn't think I was wrong, but there are times when it's
better not to fire until you've got your guns run out.

                                                        Cheers,

                                                        Mick.

--                                                                          --
Mick Fauchon                          | Internet: ulmjf@dewey.newcastle.edu.au
Reference Section, Auchmuty Library   | Ph  (intl+61+49) 215861
University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA    | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 23:04:03 -0500
From:    Stan Koper <skoper@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Chuck Yeagers Kills in wwii

> Can someone tell me how many kills mr. Yeager did score in wwii? He got
> 5 Me-109's in one day so he must have at least 10-15 kills (1 Me-262 and
> Me-163 I think). So, how many did he score? Did he fight also in Korea?
>

This is from Tom Wolfe's _The Right Stuff_:

     "In his first eight missions, at the age of twenty, Yeager
shot down two German fighters.  On his ninth he was shot down
over German-occupied French territory, suffering flak wounds; he
bailed out, was picked up by the French underground, which
smuggled him across the Pyrenees into Spain disguised as a
peasant.  In Spain he was jailed briefly, then released,
whereupon he made it back to England and returned to combat
during the Allied invasion of France.  On October 12, 1944,
Yeager took on and shot down five German fighter planes in
succession.  On November 6, flying a propeller-driven P-51
Mustang, he shot down one of the new jet fighters the Germans
had developed, the Messerschmitt-262, and damaged two more, and
on November 20 he shot down four FW-190s."

     That's twelve.

     I didn't see anything indicating that he saw combat in
Korea.

Stan Koper
skoper@netcom.com
         "Never Let A Machine Know You're In A Hurry"
      This message brought to you by uqwk 1.7 and Yarn 0.60

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 5 Apr 1994 to 6 Apr 1994
***********************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 6 Apr 1994 to 7 Apr 1994
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Status: O

There are 51 messages totalling 1658 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. help
  2. Re[2]: Weap: B-17 vs B-24
  3. EDU: Graf Zeppelin
  4. VET: Search for German vet by name? (2)
  5. IMHO (2)
  6. INF: USAAF 7 APR 44
  7. Manny Klette and the 91st BG
  8. Re[2]: INF: German uniforms (5)
  9. 84th Infantry Division - The Railsplitters
 10. GEN: Article on BGen Scott (3)
 11. RCAF (4)
 12. Re[2]: Re[2]: INF: German uniforms
 13. TRV Children in camps (3)
 14. INF: German II collar tabs. (2)
 15. WWI: Mine Obituary
 16. Wasserfall
 17. Chuck Yeagers Kills in wwii
 18. Hs-293
 19. WWI-L PLEASE READ
 20. TRV "Joy Division" - Children in camps (3)
 21. WEAP:V1 as nuke
 22. <No subject given>
 23. vietnam war (2)
 24. USAAF Regulations Question (2)
 25. INF: Great Lakes Aircraft Carriers
 26. Seek Bowater Corp. Archives
 27. request for information (2)
 28. Heinz Dittmar over mach 1? Me-163v-1
 29. WWII air show in Baton Rouge, LA
 30. Moscow, May:last chance
 31. SPAIN'S FRANCO AND "K
 32. Pacific-inferior equipment?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 17:25:43 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: help

>
> Please anybody, I might be ignorant but let me know what on Earth
> is IMHO standing for?

In My Humble Opinion

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 22:22:19 -0700
From:    Bill Shatzer <bshatzer@EDNET1.OSL.OR.GOV>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Weap: B-17 vs B-24

>
>The answer may be obvious to some, but not to me:
>Why weren't B-29s used in the ETO?
>
>BTW (by the way), in answer to a separate question
>IMHO means, IMHO, In My Humble Opinion.
>
>
>
> *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*> Jim Benn  [jrb@agaviion.agfx.com] <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=*
> |-=[        Auto-Graphics, Inc.       ]=[      /~~)       /~~)           ]=-|
> |-=[        8 West Main Street        ]=[     (__(_UTO - (__/RAPHICS     ]=-|
> |-=[        Niantic, CT  06357        ]=[              .___/             ]=-|
> *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*>  PHONE: 800-733-6939 = FAX: 203-691-0183  <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=*
>
>
The B-29's weren't needed.  The B-29's principal asset was its extreme long
range and by the time the B-29 became operational, the USAAF was bombing
German targets with B-25's and B-26's.  Indeed, I think the B-29 was
reserved exclusively for the Pacific even before the allies captured the
bases in Italy and France.  After all the distance from Manila to
Tokyo is almost 1900 miles while Berlin is less than 600 miles from
London.

--
Bill Shatzer  - bshatzer@ednet1.osl.or.gov - bshatz@aol.com
"Please don't honk as you pass me on the information superhighway;
I'm pedaling as fast as I can!"

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 01:27:47 CDT
From:    Steve Alvin <salvin@HEARTLAND.BRADLEY.EDU>
Subject: Re: EDU: Graf Zeppelin

Graf Zepplin was launched 12/08/38 by the Deutsche Werke at
Kiel.  Displacement was to be 23,200 tons, dimensions 820x88.5x
18.5 ft.  She was origianlly planned to carry 12 Ju87's and 30
Me109's modified for carrier use (The Me109T was built in small
numbers), later this was amended to 28 Ju87's and 12 Me109's.
Work was suspended in April, 1940, recommenced in July, but
construction was slow due to production difficulties with the
catapults, arresting gear, and the general dis-interest Hitler
had for the surface fleet.  Work finally stopped in 1943.  The
ship was scuttled at Settin on 4/24/45, the hull was raised in
1947 and towed to Swinemunde.  She capsized while being towed
to Lenningrad and was broken up in 1948/49.

The hull of a sister ship was completed to the armored deck before
work stopped and the hull broken up on the stocks.  Some printed
sources give her the name Peter Strasser, but there is no
evidence to support this.

--
Steve Alvin
salvin@heartland.bradley.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 01:43:18 -0500
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: VET: Search for German vet by name?

Hey -- Want a really hard project that can only be considered a longshot
under the best of situations?

Did the Luftwaffe during WWII ever maintain a simple roster of all its
pilot or aircrew personnel?  Basically, I wonder if a list of names may
exist with any information that may assist in cross-checking and locating
individuals, their history or family.

The reason I ask is that we are in possession of a German flight suit from
WWII.  By tradition, the last name (and last name only) of the owner is
sewn into the suit.

The last name of the person who owned this flightsuit is "Brohm."

I'm not well versed in German names, but that doesn't strike me as a common
name.  I could be wrong, of course.

However, I'd be interested in beginning the difficult task of seeing if I can
track down the service record(s) of anyone with the last name Brohm.

Told ya this would be a doozy.  :)   Anyone with German connections and
research in this area know if such a thing is possible with so little info?


--
Robert J. Granvin                                             rjg@stat.umn.edu
University of Minnesota, School of Statistics
         "I'm my father?  I'm my mother?  I'm chipped beef on toast?"

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 17:42:06 SST
From:    LEE YU JIN <yujin@EMTDS1.NSC.COM>
Subject: IMHO

>Honest?  I always thought it meant "Humble".  Now there's a debate for you!
>:-)
>
>Theron P. Keller
>Logicon, Inc.
>P.O. Box 1420
>Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
>tkeller@logicon.com



I'll second that!



Lee Yu Jin
yujin@emtds1.nsc.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 07:00:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: INF: USAAF 7 APR 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
FRIDAY, 7 APRIL 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  F-7, Consolidated Liberator
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 8 B-24s dispatched to destroy a convoy,
believed SE of Matsuwa Island, Kurile Islands, turn back due to engine,
navigation and weather difficulties. A flight of F-7As of the 2d
Photographic Charting Squadron, 1st Photographic Charting Group, 311th
Photographic Wing (Mapping and Charting), arrives in the Aleutian Islands;
its mission is mapping of the Kurile Islands. The squadron is based at
Peterson Field, Colorado Springs, Colorado and sends detachments to various
parts of the world to photo map.

  CARIBBEAN (Sixth Air Force): 74th and 397th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy),
VI Bomber Command, move from Guatemala City, Guatemala and the Galapagos
Islands respectively to Rio Hato, Panama with B-24s.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 20+ P-51s and B-25s hit gun
positions at Mawlu; throughout the Mogaung Valley 100+ fighter-bombers and 2
B-25s hit numerous targets including fuel and ammunition stores near Manywet,
supplies and a railroad station at Myitkyina, supplies and radio station at
Sahmaw, the Kamaing area, bridges at Nsopzup and supply dumps W of Mogaung;
30+ of the fighter-bombers carry out ground support missions at Shaduzup.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 7 P-40s strafe 3 barges and several junks at
Saint John Island, China, leaving them burning. 2 B-24s on a sweep from Hong
Kong to Formosa claim a large river boat and a small freighter sunk and 2
other freighters damaged; 1 B-24 is lost. 4 P-40s attack a large
concentration of small vessels at Haiphong, French Indochina, sinking at
least 4.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (XX Bomber Command): HQ 462d Bombardment Group (Very
Heavy) arrives at Piardoba, India from the US.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Italy, 400+ B-17s and B-24s
attack marshalling yards; the B-17s bomb Treviso; the B-24s hit Mestre and
Bologna; almost 100 P-38s provide escort; P-47s fly a sweep over the Gorizia-
Udine area; the bombers and fighters claim almost 20 aircraft shot down.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium bombers attack
bridges, tracks and a viaduct at Attigliano, Ficulle, Certaldo, Pontassieve
and Incisa in Valdarno, and hit Prato marshalling yard; light bombers hit
an ammunition dump; Ausonia, Pignataro Interamna, San Apollinare and
Terracina are bombed by P-40s along with a dump and several gun positions SE
of Rome; P-47s also hit bridges and trucks in this same area and attack the
Empoli marshalling yard while A-36s hit gun emplacements, train and tracks in
the Orvieto area and vicinity and approaches to the Montalto di Castro
bridge.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-25s from Tarawa Atoll hit
Maloelap Atoll, rearm at Majuro Atoll, and bomb Jaluit Atoll on the return
flight.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 50+
fighter-bombers pound supply areas at Ratawul; 9 B-25s hit Talili Bay, 11
bomb Vunakanau Airfield and 13 blast Tobera Airfield; 6 B-25s maintain night
heckling of the Rabaul area. On Bougainville Island, 4 P-40s bomb pillboxes
near the Reini River while 2 B-24s bomb Monoitu Mission.
  HQ 5th Bombardment Group (Heavy) moves from Munda, New Georgia Island to
Momote Airfield, Los Negros Island, Admiralty Islands.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, B-25s, A-20s
and P-39s hit villages, barges, a supply area, and coastal road in areas
around Madang, Tadji, Bogia, and Uligan Harbor; and B-24s bomb Langgoer and
Wakde Island. Other B-25s bomb barracks at Penfoei, Timor Island.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 06:58:53 CDT
From:    jesse carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject: Manny Klette and the 91st BG

OK guys ;

Due that my twin cannot find my envelope from Frank Donofrio of the Memphis
Belle group, it is stated to me that I will have the info. in about a week ...
as my twin and his wife are moving and things are in a disarray.

I will not post any more things on this until I post the REAL stuff next week
sometime -- hopefully -- when I get the info. from Bobby.

Deepest regrets guys for the inconvenience ;

Jesse Carnes
LSU
BR, LA
notjic@lsuvm.sncc.lsu.edu
-------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 08:09:21 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: INF: German uniforms

On Wed, 6 Apr 1994 17:50:41 -0500 WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA said:
>Rommel even wore British dust goggles on his visor hat - where will it
>all end....... :-D

Quick curiosity:  did Rommel continue to do so after leaving Africa?

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 07:17:22 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: 84th Infantry Division - The Railsplitters

Hello, Mike!

Here goes with the first installment of this info on the 84th.

The 84th Inf. Div was activated on 15 Oct 1942 at Camp Howtze, Texas
and moved to the La Maneuvre Area on 17 Sep 1943 where it particpated
in the III Army No 4 Louisiana Maneuvers. It then moved to Camp
Claiborne, Louisiana on 16 Nov 1943 and staged at Camp Kilmer, New
Jersey on 5 Sep 1944. It departed New York Port of Entry on 20 Sep
1944 and arrived in England on 4 Oct 1944. It landed in France on 1
Nov 1944, crossed Holland on 5 Nov 1944 and entered Germany on 17 Nov
1944. It crossed into Belgium on 21 Dec 1944 and returned to Holland
on 3 Feb 1945 and Germany on 7 Feb 1945. It returned to New York Port
of Entry on 20 Jan 1946 and was inactivated at Camp Kilmer, NJ on 21
Jan 1946.


Campaigns: Rhineland, Ardennes-Alsace, Central Europe. In August
1945, it was located at Salzwedel, Germany.

Overseas' Wartime Assignments:

Ninth Army- 10 Sep 1944
III Corps-21 Sep 1944
XIX Corps-4 Nov 1944
XIII Corps-8 Nov 1944
British 30 Corps (attached)-11 Nov 1944
XIII Corps-23 Nov 1944
XVIII (A/B) Corps (attached)-20 Dec 1944
VII Corps-21 Dec 1944
XVIII Corps (A/B)-21 Dec 1944
XIII Corps-3 Feb 1945


Tomorrow I will post to you all the commanding generals' names, and a
combat narrative. Do you want a table of organization? I can supply
that with no problem, if you need it. Just wanted to know.

Hope this helps.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 12:33:59 CET
From:    "LTC Donnell, Doug" <4atf@PIRMASENS-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: GEN: Article on BGen Scott

The following is an excerpt from the USAF Airman magazine that I thought
might be of interest to the list:

Introducing retired BGen Robert Lee Scott Jr., who these days can be found
working at the Museum of Aviation, Robins AFB, GA.  He may not appear
your typical hero, but then, he's never been your typical anything.

Scott flew with Maj Gen Claire L Chennault and the famed "Flying Tigers"
in Burma, China, from 1941-1942 and he said he was credited with 22 kills.
Chennault referred to him as a "one-man Air Force".  An accomplished author
as well as pilot, the 85-year old wrote the bestseller "God is My Co-Pilot,"
which was first printed in 1943.  More recently, he published a second
big hit, "The Day I Owned the Sky."

"I've had people ask me if I had a co-author for my books," Scott said,
in his heavy southern accent. "I tell them, 'Yes suh.  The same guy
who served as my co-pilot all those years -- God.'"

Looking for a teasing grin or peering under his bushy eyebrows for a hing
of humor in those bright blue eyes, noe comes.  Suddenly the realizations
hits. . .to Scott, "God Is My Co-Pilot" is more than just a catch title
for his book.  It's a phrase he lives by.

He recalls how the title came to him.

"It was Oct 25, 1942," he began.  "We had just engaged 20 enemy aircraft and
shot down 19.  During the exchange, I heard something rattle behind me,
and then it felt like someone hit me in the back with their fist.
Japanese bullets had struck the armor plate in my P-40 cockpit, and one
bullet hit the Plexiglas.

"The impact of the bullets drove some Plexiglas into the back of my head
and slammed a rivet from the 5/8-inch armor plate into my back.  I'd
never been impressed by a pint of blood.  But a pint of blood looks
like a hell of a lot in a cockpit -- especially when it's yours.

"When it was all over, I made it back to home base later than the rest
of our squadron.  We had taken cover inside a cave, and a missionary,
who served as the doctor there, worked on my wounds.  Somebody commented
that I came back alone, alive.  The word 'alone' struck me as funny, and
I replied, 'I'm a fighter pilot -- I'm always alone.'"

When Scott said this, everybody got quiet.  He could hear the water
dripping in the cave.  The missionary/doctor walked up with the last
rivet head in his tweezers and dropped it into a metal box.  The
rivet clanged loudly.

"Then hat missionary looks at me and says, 'Oh no son, you're never alone
or you wouldn't come baack at all,'" Scott asid, nodding in agreement with
the revelation.

Sorry for the typos -- there's a bit more, which I'll add later when I
get a break.              Doug Donnell

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 08:30:22 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <sep@TVSS2.COMMNET.EDU>
Subject: Re: RCAF

I too am impressed with the class of the Canadians. I remember how they
risked their own embassy sheltering U.S. citizens in Iran a few short years
ago.

Should I have the money, I would dearly love to visit old Quebec with my
daughter. I have always wanted to see the old fort that Washington sent
Benidict Arnold (A native of this town of Norwich CT)!

Ah, though I remain poor, my respect for the Canadians is legion.

Let us remember, and not have to be constantly reminded via bravado.

                                                                Steve

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 07:43:22 CST
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re[2]: Re[2]: INF: German uniforms

Bill's correct---I knew there was a distinction between a Stabsfeldwebel
and other NCO's--the cord is it.

Tresse--that's right.  One more week until I unpack-----urrrgggh.

TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 08:28:00 -0400
From:    JOHN NEMETH 404-347-4216 <NEMETH.JOHN@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV>
Subject: TRV Children in camps

          A few years ago I bought a tape by a band called "Joy Division".
          A friend of mine told me that the Nazis would organize children
          in concentration camps into groups called "Joy Divisions" (A form
          of doublespeak if you will).  In the approx 8 years since he's
          told me this, I haven't found ANY reference to this.  Is my
          friend crazy or am I?  You can just email me privately.

          Thanks!
          John N.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 08:48:40 EDT
From:    Richard Kaplan <kaplanr@CLP2.CLPGH.ORG>
Subject: INF: German II collar tabs.

Well I'll muddle the waters even more; though I don't profess to know squat
about German military uniforms except I like the Luftwaffe winter coat, and the
U-Boat crushed white cap :)

In looking through a copy of Manchester's American Ceasar, there is a photo of
then Chief of Staff MacArthur watching Austrian Army manuevers in 1932.  In the
photo, Mac is standing next to an Austrian officer who has the same horizontal
IIs on his left collar tab.  Incidentally the officer could be a dead ringer
for Eric von Stroheim.


                                        Richard Kaplan
                                        Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 08:51:50 -0500
From:    "W.C. DIVENS" <ERCOUPE@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: RCAF

>I too am impressed with the class of the Canadians. I remember how they
>risked their own embassy sheltering U.S. citizens in Iran a few short years
>ago.

Indeed...but one group that is also often ignored, probably due to
all the negative publicity in this era of 'political correctness over
historical study' is the South African contingent of the Commonwealth
forces.  Were there not a number of South Africans in the RAF during the
Battle of Britain?  Were not their contributions worthy of praise too?

Bill
N93774@vms.cis.pitt.edu


Aside:

Does anyone know if there were any black regiments recruited from the
Commonwealth's African states?  It is pretty clear that indigineous
native troops were recrutied in the Pacific theater by the British
Commonwealth, but what of Africa?  In one of the VICTORY AT SEA tapes
they show a scene where there is a victory parade and there are a
large number of black troops marching.  Any info on this?

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 08:06:17 CST
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN: Article on BGen Scott

I met Gen Bob Scott at Warner Robbins AFB in December.  He lives in
Macon, GA.  He came in and gave a talk about his experiences in China.
He wanted to be a fighter pilot all his life, and ended up flying
transports to China, where he hooked up with Gen Chenault.  He talked
Chenault into letting him fly fighters, and his legend took off.

He published God Is My Co-pilot during the war, and the movie was
produced shortly thereafter.  The Museum of Aviation at Warner Robbins
has a number of relics of "God Is my Co-pilot", to include movie
marque's used for the opening--although I believe they may be
reproductions.

As for Bob Scott, he is alive and well.  He has a heavy southern accent,
and it took some effort to understand him.  He seems to love being in
the spotlight, and likes to tell some tall tales, but all or most of
them are true.  We thought we were going to have lunch with him, however
he wasn't feeling too well and left earlier than expected.  He is very
tall, and lanky, and overall a great guy.

The shop located at the Museum of Aviation at Warner Robbins has a
section of "God Is My Co-Pilot" items for sale.  I have an autographed
copy of the book, which will sit proudly next to John Ausland's book, my
Memphis Belle Book autographed by Bill Winchell, and my autographed copy
of Platoon Leader by James McDonald.

TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 09:19:54 -0500
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: INF: German uniforms

>         Thanks, Bill. That was everything I would have said if I'd had
> my references handy (toungue-in-cheek).
>         I didn't think I was wrong, but there are times when it's
> better not to fire until you've got your guns run out.
>
>                                                         Mick.

Hi Mick,

I'm sure you are not wrong.  There is rarely one singular reason for
any given uniform feature.  I had not heard that about preventing
buttons from wearing through.  I bet it would on those old uniforms.
During the 20th century those details were more decorative than
functional (particularly WWII German uniforms).

By WWII the only uniforms the Germans wore that had buttons or cuff
decoration were police formations, parade dress army and kriegsmarine
uniforms and formal diplomatic apparel.  Elite units had cuff
titles and foreign volunteers had sleeve shields indicating the
unit's nationality.  The only function of these accoutrements was
either to denote membership in an elite unit (like the
Grossdeutschland, Afrika Korps, Das Reich etc.) or as awards for
participation in certain campaigns (like Spanien 36/39, Kreta,
Afrika, Metz 1944 and Kurland).

Cheers, Bill Huber  /  whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 10:19:44 -0400
From:    Ron Babuka <wrb1@CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: Re: RCAF

>THE ROYAL CANADIAN AIR FORCE HAS A RECORD THAT ANYONE WHO IS CONVERSANT
>WITH WORLD WAR II REALIZES IS SOMETHING TO BE DAMNED PROUD OF AND YOU PEOPLE
>PISS ME OFF BECAUSE YOU NEVER MENTION IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>YOU GOTTA TOOT YOUR OWN HORN OR YOU WILL BE RUN OVER!!!
>
>Well, here is one Yank who is lifting the lid of secrecy and letting the
>world (or at least this list) know that the RCAF was a major force in WWII
>and it is about time they got the credit they deserve!
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
>|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
>|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
>|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
>-------------------------------------------------------------------


In my duties at working our museums annual "Wings of Eagle" airshow, I have had
the honor of getting to meet and know several members of the Canadian
Warbird Heritage Museum from Hamilton, Ontario and all I can say is that
are on one       group of exceptional individuals.  The Canadians have
always seemed to work with the general public in a quiet and proud manner.
I am not alone in KNOWING that without the Candians attending our airshow
and letting us Americans know of the
proud history (with a great deal of class) that our airshow whould be
nowhere as near succesful that is is.  I would encourage anyone traveling
within driving distance of Hamilton to stop in and see their fine
collection of warbirds.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka                                         National Warplane Museum
Cornell University                                 Geneseo, New York
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 15:47:34 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <smb@NETMGRS.CO.UK>
Subject: WWI: Mine Obituary

Ladies and Gentlemen!

apologies for this non-WW2 post - I am migrating future WWI stuff to
the MILHIST list in the absence of a dedicated WWI list - but just to
close off the discussion we had on mining activities during the Great War,

I came across an obituary in the Daily Telegraph 24/03/94===>

[i've posted this already on MILHIST before remembering that the original
discussion was on WWII-L]

Joe Murray, aged 97, one of the last surviving sailors to have fought with
the Royal Naval Division in the trenches of Gallipoli and the Western Front.

In 1915, Murray was serving with the Hood battalion in the Gallipoli
campaign, landing on W beach, Cape Helles on 28th April. The Western Front
style stalemate soon set in with added problems of heat, dust, flies, a chronic
shortage of drinking water as well as enemy fire. As a former Durham miner,
Murray was one of those engaged in mining activities under Turkish trenches.
Countermining carried out by the Turks resulted in Murray being buried alive
 together with another man. Given up for dead, they dug themselves out
65 hours later using their bare hands and Murray's seaman's knife.

Born in 1896, Murray, a miner's son went down the pit aged 12
doing a 10 hour day for 1 penny an hour.. On October 6th 1914, he
completed his shift and walked 8 miles to enlist into the Navy,
following his brother who was already serving.

He also took part in the last stages of the Somme campaign, being
a machine gunner in the attack on Beaumont Hamel.

He published 2 books, Gallipoli As I Saw It (1965), and Call To Arms -
>From Gallipoli To The Western Front (1980). They remain among the most
poignant memoirs of life in the trenches during WWI


Steve Baldwin
smb@netmgrs.co.uk

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 09:54:27 -0500
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: VET: Search for German vet by name?

> Did the Luftwaffe during WWII ever maintain a simple roster of all its
> pilot or aircrew personnel?  Basically, I wonder if a list of names may
> exist with any information that may assist in cross-checking and locating
> individuals, their history or family.

Hi Robert,

If such a list exists I would give my .... well I'd give a lot to get
it. :-)

I may be able to help you though.  There are a number of references
that list the officer corps of the various services called
"Ranglisten" and "Dienstalterslisten".  Part of my hobby is to
collect these references because as a uniform collector it is very
gratifying to be able to cross check items in my collection against
published references.

Unfortunately, the Luftwaffe is a very difficult branch to research.
Until recently the only Rangliste that had been published covered
only general officers but thanks to Akira I have been fortunate
enough to get ahold of a Rangliste that lists all Luftwaffe officers
down to the rank of Hauptmann as of 1945.   The bad thing about these
type of reference is that if the man in question was killed in 1944
he will not appear in the 1945 rangliste unless it has a "in memory"
section and most do not.

Another and perhaps better approach would be to check against lists
of those who won high awards as books have been published listing the
recipients of the Knights Cross, German Cross, Ehrenpokal (Honor
goblet) and others.

> The reason I ask is that we are in possession of a German flight suit from
> WWII.  By tradition, the last name (and last name only) of the owner is
> sewn into the suit.

That is a common thing to find in German uniforms and always a bonus
for collector/researchers like myself.  Sometimes you can get first
name if the item is tailor made and you are lucky but mostly all you
find is the last name if anything.

> The last name of the person who owned this flightsuit is
> "Brohm."

I will see what I can find out.

> I'm not well versed in German names, but that doesn't strike me as a common
> name.  I could be wrong, of course.

There may be a few.  Did the suit have any rank insignia on the
sleeve or evidence of award loops etc.  Any details like that can
make the search simpler.

> However, I'd be interested in beginning the difficult task of seeing if I can
> track down the service record(s) of anyone with the last name Brohm.

Checking books like mine are the best way to start because if he is
listed you can get details like first name and sometimes unit
assigned.  The problem you run into with researching Luftwaffe
members or Germans in general is that Germany has very strict privacy
laws.  Another problem, particularly with Luftwaffe guys, is that
most of the Luftwaffe records were destroyed in the bombing of the
Berlin personnel center during the war.  90% of Luftwaffe personnel
records were destroyed.  A third problem is that the archives
generally require full name and birthdate plus a statement that the
individual being researched is either dead or believed to be dead.
In your case they may comply since you represent an institution and
if the guy is still alive you may be able to reunite him with the
flightsuit in a ceremony at your museum.  They would probably go for
something like that.

> Told ya this would be a doozy.  :)   Anyone with German connections and
> research in this area know if such a thing is possible with so little info?
>
> Robert J. Granvin                                             rjg@stat.umn.edu

I'll give it my best shot.

Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 10:21:41 -0500
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: INF: German uniforms

> On Wed, 6 Apr 1994 17:50:41 -0500 WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA said:
> >Rommel even wore British dust goggles on his visor hat - where will it
> >all end....... :-D
>
> Quick curiosity:  did Rommel continue to do so after leaving Africa?

Hi Ken,

I don't think so.  All the photos I've seen of him in Italy and at
Normandy have him wearing the visor hat without his Brit dust goggles.

According to Rommel's son, Manfred, he liked to wear his Africa
uniform because it was more comfortable.  The collar was open rather
then high and stiff as on continental general officer uniforms.
Manfred said he would wear the Africa uniform in Germany at home but
all you see of him in the "field" he is wearing the same as everybody
else and without those Joe cool shades.

Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 10:47:32 -0500
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: TRV Children in camps

>           A few years ago I bought a tape by a band called "Joy Division".
>           A friend of mine told me that the Nazis would organize children
>           in concentration camps into groups called "Joy Divisions" (A form
>           of doublespeak if you will).  In the approx 8 years since he's
>           told me this, I haven't found ANY reference to this.  Is my
>           friend crazy or am I?  You can just email me privately.
>
>           Thanks!
>           John N.

Hi John,

Others on the list my be of help here so I will throw out what I know
in hopes of striking some familiar chords with folks.

Only thing that comes to mind is the Hitler Youth gatherings under the
"Kraft durch Freude" (strength through joy) program.  The HJ took
over as the lead youth organization after the Boy Scouts were banned
in Germany.   They organized huge gatherings designed to get the boys
used to military like regimen and lifestyle.  Physical fitness was
stressed as was paramilitary training.  Part of the athletic
competition included seeing who could throw the stick grenade the
furthest.  Shooting, marching, designing gliders, fixing motorcycles,
sailing were all things the HJ were involved in.  Pretty much
everything the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts do was done but the HJ or
BDM (Bund der Deutsches Madchen - League of German Girls) except it
was more military and certainly politically oriented.

I would not call the gatherings concentration camps because they were
more like big campouts or what the US army calls field exercises.  If
what you are talking about is something different I am not familiar
with it.  They were not permanent gatherings like concentration
camps.  The only long term Hitler Jugend (HJ) program was the
Landjahr which took city kids (boys and girls) and literally farmed
them out.  If you were selected for the program you would move to the
country and live with a farm family for a year helping with crops and
cattle.  The program had is drawbacks though as some of the girls
ended up getting more experience as mothers than as farmers :-)
If you successfully completed the Landjahr it was a good mark in your
book and promotions within the HJ came easier.

Anybody else got any other ideas?

Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 11:10:12 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: INF: German uniforms

Hello, Bill and Ken!

I would like to add a comment to that below.

> On Wed, 6 Apr 1994 17:50:41 -0500 WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA said:
> >Rommel even wore British dust goggles on his visor hat - where will it
> >all end....... :-D
>
> Quick curiosity:  did Rommel continue to do so after leaving Africa?

    Rommel's command car was also British, not just the goggles. He
liked the British goggles because they allowed better protection not
to mention better peripheral vision.

    After leaving Africa, Rommel dispensed with the goggles and
tropical uniform and went back to the stiff-collared uniform.

    Thanks for allowing my two cents' worth to this.

    All the best.

    Terry


Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 11:26:08 -0500
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: INF: German II collar tabs.

> In looking through a copy of Manchester's American Ceasar, there is a photo of
> then Chief of Staff MacArthur watching Austrian Army manuevers in 1932.  In the
> photo, Mac is standing next to an Austrian officer who has the same horizontal
> IIs on his left collar tab.  Incidentally the officer could be a dead ringer
> for Eric von Stroheim.
>                                         Richard Kaplan

Hi Richard,

I'll have to have a look at that.  All the Austrian uniforms I have
seen have seven pointed stars on their collars where the Germans wear
Litzen.  I have never seen an Austrian uniform with Litze that was not
converted to Wehrmacht use after the Anschluss.  Their helmets were
essentially the same but the uniforms were decidedly different.

>From your description, it sounds like Mac and a German officer were
watching Austrian Army maneuvers.  Did it say the guy next to Mac was
Austrian?

Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 11:27:21 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Wasserfall

Hello, Gudmundur!

Here goes with some more info.

                    Wasserfall

Among the masterpieces developed at Peenemuende was the SAM
"Wasserfall". It was designed to have a range of 50 km (164,000 ft)
and to reach 18,000m (59,100 ft), to destroy enemy aircraft flying at
900km/h (560mph). The envisaged performance was higher than that for
the American Nike-Ajax. The German High Command expected much from
this SAM in the counterattack against the streams of Allied bombers.
But only 14 Waterfalls had been completed before the surrender, 12 of
which were test flown. The Waterfall brought to the US was developed
into the Hermes SAM by General Electric. The same missle captured by
the Russians was developed into the M-2 SAM.

Developed from the experimental A-5, the Waterfall was powered by a
BMW liquid propellant motor. The guidance for the world's first SAM
was to be either the beam-rider or the command system. There was also
a plan to use an infra-red homing system on the Waterfall.


Wasserfall C2/E2: length: 7.62m. diameter: 0.812m. span of the
stabilizing fin: 2.38m (central section) and 2.5m (tail section).
Thrust:7800 kg x 40 sec. Fuel: visol, nitric acid 90%, sulfuric acid
10%. Weight at firing: 1955kg. Weight of warhead: 900kg. weight of
propellant: 1955kg. speed 2340km/h. Height: 19,500m. Range: 50km.

Hope this helps.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 12:46:16 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <sep@TVSS2.COMMNET.EDU>
Subject: Re: IMHO

IMHO means I'll Make it Home for October. A battle cry used in D day.

Actually, that is a rather bald face lie in bad taste, and apoligies to
anybody who actually believed it. How's that for generating 'discussion'?.

I thought it meant In My Honourable Opinion, which is a cousin to IMHE,
In My honourable Estimation. (Here I go again).

Either way, I hope by now that you get the picture...
                                                        Steve

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 12:59:46 -0400
From:    "John E. Kollar" <KILLAR@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU>
Subject: Re: Chuck Yeagers Kills in wwii

Charles Lindberg flew combat in the Pacific, I think he got
5 planes, and of course he flew the best fighter, the P-38....:)

                                John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 13:17:05 -0400
From:    "John E. Kollar" <KILLAR@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hs-293

>Acoustic homing on the torpedo?

I'm really not sure, the book I read it in was an eyewitness account of
the action, and all he mentions is loading the torpedoe, firing it
when an escort was directly overhead(and dropping depth charges, cool
crew, they even waited several runs for the right set-up) fired the
torpedoe, hurd an explosion, and the destroyers screws stopped.  I
do not know if the can was sunk, but the other destroyers were slightly
peeved to say the least and the Batfish(?) spent another couple
of hours under attack.  I'll get documentation next week, but the book
was called 'Submarine' (very original)  From the way it was used
I would assume it was acoustic, they don't mention any active sonar
which they could have detected, and emphasised the sound of the
screws, but it is possible that the crew didn't know how it homed.
They only had the one torpedoe, and they fired it our an AFT tube.
,it was also shorter than a normal torpedoe, maybe for maneouver?
If anyone can give me more info,please help, I haven't seen any
other references to this.
                                        John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 12:27:15 -0500
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: INF: German uniforms

>
>     Rommel's command car was also British, not just the goggles. He
> liked the British goggles because they allowed better protection not
> to mention better peripheral vision.
>
> Terry Moore

Hi Terry,

Not to mention they looked really cool on his visor hat. :-D

Cheers, Bill Huber

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 18:26:11 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <smb@NETMGRS.CO.UK>
Subject: WWI-L PLEASE READ

Ladies and Gentlemen!

taking a deep breath, a pile of prozac, and a risk, I have decided to
launch a register of those interested in joining a discussion list dedicated
to World War 1 (known hereafter as WWI-L). There seems to be a number out
there that are interested in this subject, and it is a trifle tedious as
we migrate between MILHIST and WWII looking for a place to discuss this
appallingly overlooked subject.

Instead of this Children of Israel-like wandering, I think we need to
get our heads down and do something about it. I have to say from the outset
that I know nothing of managing lists, am a humble software engineer by
profession, and think that if setting up a list requires lots of
disk space etc, I am unlikely to be able to site it here.

That said, nothing ventured, nothing gained, so I propose the following:

1. Interested parties please email me with the following details:

Subject Line: WWI-L
Body: Full Internet Address followed by your name

then send it to smb@netmgrs.co.uk
I will dump the stuff in a file "for future reference" and for
communicating with you re success/failure of the project.

2. Those who may be able to help please email me with subject line
WWI-L: HELP (as an offer, not an explanation!) and detail me with
how you might be able to help (site, moderator, or whatever)

3. I would be particularly interested to hear from MILHIST-L and
WWII-L list owners as to where/how one can get hold of information
regarding how to set up a list.

This is a very long shot, and frankly, wonder whether it can/will
get off the ground, but here goes...

regards

Steve Baldwin
smb@netmgrs.co.uk

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 18:30:15 GMT,BST
From:    John Gillies <JOHNG@PSY.GLA.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: TRV "Joy Division" - Children in camps

> >           A few years ago I bought a tape by a band called "Joy Division".
> >           A friend of mine told me that the Nazis would organize children
> >           in concentration camps into groups called "Joy Divisions" (A form
> >           of doublespeak if you will).  In the approx 8 years since he's
> >           told me this, I haven't found ANY reference to this.  Is my
> >           friend crazy or am I?  You can just email me privately.
> >
> >           Thanks!
> >           John N.

Bill Huber replies:
> Hi John,
>
> Others on the list my be of help here so I will throw out what I know
> in hopes of striking some familiar chords with folks.
>
> Only thing that comes to mind is the Hitler Youth gatherings under the
> "Kraft durch Freude" (strength through joy) program.

[Description of HJ activities deleted]

>  Pretty much
> everything the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts do was done but the HJ or
> BDM (Bund der Deutsches Madchen - League of German Girls) except it
> was more military and certainly politically oriented.

I think that BDM was (technically) "Bund Deutscher Madel" (sorry, my
editor doesn't do umlauts!) which has something of the same "quaint"
flavour as the usual English translation - "League of German Maidens".

> I would not call the gatherings concentration camps because they were
> more like big campouts or what the US army calls field exercises.

I thought John's friend was suggesting that it was children *in
concentration camps* (i.e. Jewish and other children) who were
organised into these "Joy Divisions". I've never heard the term used
in this context myself, but that's what I took John to mean. The
group "Joy Division" (like "New Order" and, more notoriously,
"Skrewdriver") certainly have the reputation (here in the UK at
least) of being sympathetic to Nazi ideology.
Maybe someone on HOLOCAUS-L could shed some light on the existence of
"Joy Divisions" in the concentration camps - I will post the
question there. The camps were certainly rich in ironical titles,
both "official" and unofficial".

John




John Gillies
Department of Psychology
Adam Smith Building
University of Glasgow
Glasgow  G12 8RT                      Tel: (0)41 339 8855 ext.5351
Scotland
                         johng@psy.gla.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 13:46:39 -0400
From:    "John E. Kollar" <KILLAR@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU>
Subject: WEAP:V1 as nuke

I found it, the throw weight of a V-2 was around 1 ton,
the US did not develop a nuclear weapon of one ton or less
until 1952, with the Mk7 a 20kiloton device (same as Hiroshima)
with a weight of 1600lbs, or 0.8 tons.
        The History of the U.S. Nuclear Arsenol
        James Norris Gibson
        Brompton

                                JOHN E KOLLAR

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 13:46:08 EDT
From:    Joe Cafaro <jcafaro@MENTOR.LGC.PEACHNET.EDU>
Subject: <No subject given>

subscribe Joe Cafaro LaGrange College

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 14:40:49 -0400
From:    RAYMOND CRAIG MCINTURFF <rcmcin@UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU>
Subject: vietnam war

I have just recently became aware of the milhis and wwii lists and seems
like a new list is being formed for wwi.  Being a babyboomer, I am
interested in reading and discussing the Vietnam War. Not the politics,
but the battles, weapons, and strategy.  Who out there in cyberspace are
interested?

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 12:03:27 PST
From:    "Jones, Scott T." <sjones@CCLINK.LOGICON.COM>
Subject: USAAF Regulations Question

     During a recent bout of insomnia, I was afforded the opportunity ot
     view a movie which was apparently filmed during WWII as a morale
     booster. It showed an attack on a Japanese convoy by a group of B-17s
     and what appeared to be torpedo carrying Dauntlesses(?). There were a
     number of shots of the B-17 waist gunners and their mascot, a
     miniature collie. What was the "official" policy regarding mascots on
     aircraft during a mission? What about non-crew personnel? Were these
     strictly enforced or were they as relaxed about it as they appeared? I
     understand that this movie was produced to boost the morale of the
     homefront and not as an educational tool, but I am curious as to how
     acurate the film makers really were.

     Thanks,

     Scott Jones
     Sjones@LOGICON.COM

     Interesting quote I heard from a man who was in Bastogne as told to
     him by an instructor...
     "If they yell 'Aaaah!', you just shot an American. If they yell
     'Ach!', you just shot a Kraut."

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 15:18:54 -0500
From:    "W.C. DIVENS" <ERCOUPE@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: INF: Great Lakes Aircraft Carriers

The following was forwarded from the alt.great.lakes
newsgroup.

May be interesting to some....

Bill
N93774@vms.cis.pitt.edu

------------------- forwarded text ----------------------


Newsgroups: alt.great-lakes
Subject: WWII Lake Michigan Navy
Message-ID: <1994Mar30.074031.49050@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu>
Date: 30 Mar 94 07:40:31 GMT
Organization: Illinois State University
Lines: 41
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0]

Summary:Carrier Operations-Carrier Qualification
Keywords:


Even though it may be unbelievable to some, two converted paddlewheel
steamships did serve as training  carriers during WWII.  These two vessels, USS
Wolverine and USS Sable, operated in conjunction with flight training
operations at Glenview Naval Airstation, which is just north/northwest of
Chicago.  Prior to assignment to the fleet air arm, pilots needed to qualify in
landing and take-off operations.  Pilots would fly from Glenview NAS out to
these vessels in Lake Michigan and practice landings and take-offs.

These flat tops were small.  Just large enough for one aircraft to land and
capture with arresting cables and then take-off.  When an aircraft was damaged
upon landing the pilot became a shipboard visitor for the remainder of the day.
 Why?  There was no room for aircraft to remain on board until the ship
returned to port...any bird incapable of being re-launched went to the bottom
of Lake Michigan.  This allowed for the carrier to continue operations and
accounts for @165 to 400 WWII aircraft on the bottom of Lake Michigan.  I give
these numbers for two reasons.  First I cannot remember the exact numbers
quoted in literature in the last ten years.  Secondly, all aircraft that went
over the side were not listed in the ship's logs.

The benefits were simple.  These two vessels were converted quickly and this
required less time than if they were built from the keel up.  The Great Lakes
are inland waters that cover a large expanse of area allowing for operations of
this type.  More importantly,I believe, was the fact that these vessels did not
require a screening destroyer and crusier group.  This freed vessels of these
types for other duties.  Additionally, the potential for losing even a training
carrier was high if it would have been unescorted along any of our ocean coast
areas.  At the time of Pearl Harbor there were five carriers(US) in the
Pacific(Lexington, Yorktown, Hornet, Enterprise, and Langley).

There is much more, but I think this sheds some light on some history of the
Great Lakes and how they played a big role in WWII.

Richard Rinchich
rinchich@ilstu.edu

PS.  Mark, hopes this gives you and other readers a glimpse of Sable's and
Wolverine's worthiness.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 15:33:21 EST
From:    Chuck McCormick <chuckm@AREC.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: TRV Children in camps

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: TRV Children in camps
Author:  NEMETH.JOHN@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV at AREC@UMD.EDU
Date:    4/7/94 8:28 AM


          A few years ago I bought a tape by a band called "Joy Division".
          A friend of mine told me that the Nazis would organize children
          in concentration camps into groups called "Joy Divisions" (A form
          of doublespeak if you will).  In the approx 8 years since he's
          told me this, I haven't found ANY reference to this.  Is my
          friend crazy or am I?  You can just email me privately.

          Thanks!
          John N.
----End included message----

Unfortunately the 'Joy Divison' is what the SS called the in-camp whore-house
(where the prisioners were forced to be the prostitutes*), which was used by
guards and their officers.  I have forgotten what the German translation of Joy
Division is.  I do not know if children were employed in this way but given the
perversity of the concentration camp system I do not doubt it.  I think the band
Joy Division chose their name to be dark and ironic.

*I don't know if prostitute is the right term...I don't think the women working
there were paid and they were obviously forced to work there.

Chuck
chuckm@arec.umd.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 14:55:00 -0400
From:    JOHN NEMETH 404-347-4216 <NEMETH.JOHN@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV>
Subject: Re: TRV "Joy Division" - Children in camps

          Sorry, I guess I wasn't too clear the first time around.  I did
          mean children, Jewish & other, in the various concentration
          camps.

          (side note. In the States I had never heard about Joy Division or
          New Order being sympathetic to Nazism, If I realized that I
          wouldn't have bought the tape.  But enough about that, my musical
          tastes have about as much to do with WWII as model decals) :-)

          John N.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 15:08:03 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: USAAF Regulations Question

Hello, Scott!



>      miniature collie. What was the "official" policy regarding mascots on
>      aircraft during a mission?

    Such mascots on missions were not allowed, and anyone caught with
them stood to be punished.

 What about non-crew personnel? Were these
>      strictly enforced or were they as relaxed about it as they appeared?

    There were specific regulations regarding mascots, personal pets,
etc. Regulations regarding non-crew personnel was a matter that
required going through channels. Others who "stowed away" or somehow
managed an unauthorized ride could be punished along with the crew of
the aircraft.


I
>      understand that this movie was produced to boost the morale of the
>      homefront and not as an educational tool, but I am curious as to how
>      acurate the film makers really were.

    That segment sounds as though it may have been staged and spliced
in to give the viewers on the home front a morale boost. After all,
it looks so "homey" to see a dog or a mascot of some sort in combat
to give the appearance that all was well and that the war was far
from the home front. Such uses of animals as you suggest, would also
tend to calm the viewers in that the horrors of war could somehow be
made more palatable if the plane contained some mascot.

    Anyway, that is my two cents' worth on this.

    All the best.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 15:11:34 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN: Article on BGen Scott

Hello, Tim!

How fortunate you were to have made General Scott's acquaintance. I
have read the books already mentioned but it is all the more
impressive that you have his autographed book.

I appreciate your sharing that info with the list. It really adds a
personal touch to the discussions.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 16:18:12 -0400
From:    Daniel Ford <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>
Subject: Re: RCAF

On Thu, 7 Apr 1994, W.C. DIVENS wrote:

> Indeed...but one group that is also often ignored, probably due to
> all the negative publicity in this era of 'political correctness over
> historical study' is the South African contingent of the Commonwealth
> forces.  Were there not a number of South Africans in the RAF during the
> Battle of Britain?  Were not their contributions worthy of praise too?
>
RAF 17 Sq which served in Rangoon from mid-January until it fell in
March, and later was stationed at Magwe and at Loiwing in China, was I
suspect a fairly typical "British" squadron. It had four Americans, two
of them called Tex (they were shown in the roster as RCAF); six
Canadians; two Australians; two South Africans (both it would seem of
British ancestry); and nine British pilots. (The British may have
included Irish nationals.)

Interesting to note, it was the South African Air Force, not Royal as in
the case of Canada, Australia, and New Zealand.

Also interesting is that the AVG Flying Tigers, which flew beside these
men for two months and off and on after that, never realized that their
were Americans in the Hurricanes.

The last pilot lost in the defense of Ragoon was one of those Americans:
Sgt Tex Wisrodt on March 3. (By this time, the AVG had left Rangoon.) The
other Tex, Sgt Barrick, was one of the most successful 17 Sq pilots in
Burma. He was alive a few years ago.

Cheers - Dan Ford   <e-mail: dan.ford@unh.edu>
                    <postal: 433 Bay Road, Durham NH 03824 USA>
                    <voice/fax: +1-603-868-5850>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 16:50:50 -0230
From:    OLAF <olaf@KEAN.UCS.MUN.CA>
Subject: Seek Bowater Corp. Archives

Help! I need to get in touch with Bowater House in London,
England. This is the corporate headquarters of the Bowater
Corporation, which is (or was) a major pulp & paper manufacturer.
Specifically, I wish to make contact with their corporate
archives for some information concerning one of the ships they
owned in the 1930s and '40s to transport paper between
Newfoundland and England, and which was torpedoed by a German
submarine in 1940. Can anyone provide me with a mailing address?
Many thanks in advance.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 14:45:05 -0400
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: request for information

Can anyone offer a date or further corroboration to an account
I've just read about the German u-boat U-43 entering the
harbor at Port of Spain, Trinidad and sinking three tankers?
The account is in a book titled "In Defiance", written by
Walter Boener.

According to this account, the event occurred sometime in 1942.
U-43 got past the anti-sub nets by following a liner named
Cabo de Buena Esperanza, which was being escorted in by a
British corvette or destroyer.  After lying low till after dark,
the u-boat torpedoed two tankers in the harbor.  When the same
liner departed the next morning, a tanker accompanied it through
the nets, and U-43 went along with them, torpedoing the tanker
about a mile offshore.  Several hours later, further at sea and
after the British had given up their search, U-43 briefly
surfaced alongside the liner to prove that the u-boat had survived.
The liner was carrying a load of German diplomats from South
America and was enroute to Lisbon.

Dennis E. Sparks
sparks@caer.uky.edu
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 17:16:37 -0400
From:    Walter O'Hara <wohara@CAP.GWU.EDU>
Subject: Re: TRV "Joy Division" - Children in camps

I believe that the Joy Division was the nickname for SS Liebstandarte
Adolph Hitler.  Again, a case of doublespeak, as this particular division
was guilty of some horrific atrocities.

Walt
wohara@cap.gwu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 12:35:38 +0100
From:    John Behrens <jbehrens@DHM.COM>
Subject: Re: Heinz Dittmar over mach 1? Me-163v-1

The speed of sound is very easy to calculate.  It is nothing more than
the squareroot of gamma*R*T, where:

gamma = 1.4

R = universial gas constant

T = absolute temperature

Remember, the units have to match.  The results are in either feet per
second or meters per second, depending on the units.

But these are pure numbers.  The physics of crossing the sound barrier
are much more difficult to overcome.  As you approach, shocks begin to
form on the wings, and later on the fuselage also.  This creates the
buffeting you were refering to.

                                John

On Wed, 6 Apr 1994, Terry Moore wrote:

> Hello, again, Gudmundur!
>
> Chuck Yeager was the first man to break the sound barrier. The Me-
> 163, at least from what I have read, was not designed to pierce the
> sound barrier. I think it would have disintegrated if it had done so,
> because the buffeting would have torn it apart. Mr. Dittmar may have
> been the first to fly at 1000 km/h plus but I don't think that figure
> would mean that it was fast enough to pierce the sound barrier.
>
> Any other thoughts?
>
> Terry
>
> Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
> P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
> fax 806-371-5370
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 15:29:38 CDT
From:    jesse carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject: WWII air show in Baton Rouge, LA

Hey Guys ;

We in Baton Rouge are going to have a FREE show of vintage WW2 warbirds
on April 23 from 10 am to 3 pm. at Ryan Airport.

If anyone is interested, please come.  My brother Robert and I and about
4-5 others will dress as WW2 bomber and fighter pilots in the real gear.
Loads of fun!

By the way, Randy Holden, a local public relations man, told me that
the THEN Harding Field was one of the initial homes of the famous 91st bomb
group of Twelve O'Clock fame.
Did not know THAt one until today ... nice!


Jesse Carnes
NOTJIC@LSUVM.SNCC.LSU.EDU

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 14:43:58 -0700
From:    Eric Fenster <efenster@IGC.APC.ORG>
Subject: Moscow, May:last chance

Anybody still interested in the study trip to Moscow which Eastern Michigan
University is sponsoring from 19 May-18 June should contact me immediately
for details because it is closing in a few days.

The subject is Russia's political, economic and social situation. You don't
have to be a "student," and you don't have to be from North America.

/ex

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 16:19:37 LCL
From:    jim.brady@CHRYSALIS.ORG
Subject: SPAIN'S FRANCO AND "K

To: Wwii-l@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu

LC> Personally, I think the Vietnam generation in this
LC> country is rife with "killerati."  They still think they were
LC> right about (pushing for) our desertion of the Indochinese.
LC> "The Killing Fields" didn't seem to have daunted their self-
LC> righteousness in the least.

LC> If you think Tukhachevski and the 33,000 Red Army officers
LC> purged with him were "politically incorrect," imagine what our
LC> zealots would like to do to our national/domestic security
LC> people who have been trying to keep a lid on South and Central
LC> America!

LC> Lou Coatney


Please, Lou...

     This is the World War II discussion, not the place to denegrate a whole
generation that wasn't alive during WWII -- my generation, of which I will tell
anyone I have not the slightest shame and a good deal of pride. I would kindly
suggest there must be some other place where those remarks would be appropriate
or at least on topic.

     Thank you for endulging my interruption... Now, where were we?

     Jim Brady

___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 22:40:13 -0400
From:    David Rising <drising@IO.ORG>
Subject: Re: vietnam war

On Thu, 7 Apr 1994, RAYMOND CRAIG MCINTURFF wrote:

> I have just recently became aware of the milhis and wwii lists and seems
> like a new list is being formed for wwi.  Being a babyboomer, I am
> interested in reading and discussing the Vietnam War. Not the politics,
> but the battles, weapons, and strategy.  Who out there in cyberspace are
> interested?

Sorry to send this to the whole list, but I feel obligated to jump in
quickly. Stay away from the Vietnam-L mailing list!! It has very little
to do with Vietnam (as most of the discussion time is spent welcoming new
members and discussing tatoos), and for some unknown reason, it was very
hard to unsubscribe to. I decided to subscribe just to peruse, and got
stuck on it for about a week. Beware!!!
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 22:36:03 CDT
From:    Steve Alvin <salvin@HEARTLAND.BRADLEY.EDU>
Subject: Re: request for information

Dennis,

I've checked every entry for the U-43 in Rohwer's *Chronology of
the War at Sea*, and was unable to confirm this story.  I also
looked up the Cabo de Buena Esperanza and could not find an
entry for her.  The story sounds possible, but maybe by a diferent
boat?

BTW, this will probably be my last post to this list as I'll be
unsubing over the weekend.  My mailbox is shrinking and, while
I enjoy this list, it has so many short notes (that take up a
lot of space when you include headers and footers) that should
be sent to individuals instead of the list as a whole (for example
thank you's or I'll check that tomorrow) that I can't justify
staying subscribed.  This is not meant to be a final "flame"
just an observation--If people asked themselves "would the whole
list enjoy this post" before sending it, there would be a lot
less traffic and maybe I wouldn't have to unsub.

Take care all and continued good luck with the list.

--
Steve Alvin
salvin@heartland.bradley.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 22:48:33 -0500
From:    Jon Stevens <JSTEVENS@DAVID.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Pacific-inferior equipment?

Regarding the discussion on inferior equipment going to the Pacific Theater,
My dad, USMC 2nd Div, WWII, was not issued a bayonet or a knife before
shipping out for the Pacific.  He had to write home and ask his mom to
send him one.  She bought a bayonet at a surplus store in Chicago  that had
been chromed.  Needless to say he got it but spent a long time trying to
get rid of that shine by plunging it into a bucket of sand.

My question is --  was basic equipment like this simply not available in
large amounts in 1942?  Did the Marine Corps recieve less material than
the Army or even inferior material than the Army? Or was what happened to
my dad just a fluke?

Jon Stevens jstevens@david.wheaton.edu

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 6 Apr 1994 to 7 Apr 1994
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 40 messages totalling 1378 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. vietnam war
  2. war & music: Laibach (5)
  3. GEN: BGen R.L. Scott, Jr (part 2) (3)
  4. INF: USAAF 8-10 APR 44
  5. WWII air show in Baton Rouge, LA (5)
  6. Hs-293
  7. Black Widow
  8. INF: Collar Tabs (2)
  9. Pacific-inferior equipment? (4)
 10. SPAIN'S FRANCO AND "K
 11. VET: Search for German vet by name?
 12. HELP: CONTACT
 13. RCAF (4)
 14. WWII German radio tech, size, range ...
 15. INF: German II collar tabs.
 16. USAAF Regulations Question (5)
 17. HELP(IMHO...) (2)
 18. War and Music

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Apr 1994 02:51:01 EDT
From:    John Sloan <johns426@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: vietnam war

HI Raymond,  Guess what, there is a Vietnam war list as well run from Univ of
Buffalo also. same listserv as this but put SUBSCRIBE VWAR-L
John Sloan

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Apr 1994 11:03:45 MET
From:    Ireneusz Jakobik <SCUD@PLSZUS11.BITNET>
Subject: war & music: Laibach

Someone on the list wrote about Joy Division. I remember that few months ago
someone else mentioned song titled "Tigers are burning" (I don't recall
who recorded it). Other group Alien Sex Fiend recorded song "Hurricane
Fighter Plane"; I'll have to listen to it to get words. (lots of song texts
from many, many singers and bands are available at cs.uwp.edu ftp site,
directory: /pub/music/lyrics/ ).
There's also group Laibach, which image is very nazi-like. They wore dark
brown shirts and ties and their music is very totalitary. Guys are from
Slovenia (former Yugoslavia).
Here's text from their song "The Great Seal" from "Opus Dei" CD:
  We shall go on to the end
  We shall fight on the sees and the oceans
  We shall fight in the growing confidence and growing strength in the air
  We shall defend our island whatever the cost may be
  We shall fight on the beaches
  We shall fight on the landing ground
  We shall fight in the fields and in the streets
  We shall fight in the hills
  We shall never surrender...
That's all. Sorry if anyone was annoyed by my mail :)
Irek.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Apr 1994 11:58:07 GMT,BST
From:    John Gillies <JOHNG@PSY.GLA.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: war & music: Laibach

Irek Jakobik writes:

> Someone on the list wrote about Joy Division. I remember that few months ago
> someone else mentioned song titled "Tigers are burning" (I don't recall
> who recorded it). Other group Alien Sex Fiend recorded song "Hurricane
> Fighter Plane"; I'll have to listen to it to get words. (lots of song texts
> from many, many singers and bands are available at cs.uwp.edu ftp site,
> directory: /pub/music/lyrics/ ).
> There's also group Laibach, which image is very nazi-like. They wore dark
> brown shirts and ties and their music is very totalitary. Guys are from
> Slovenia (former Yugoslavia).
> Here's text from their song "The Great Seal" from "Opus Dei" CD:
>   We shall go on to the end
>   We shall fight on the sees and the oceans
>   We shall fight in the growing confidence and growing strength in the air
>   We shall defend our island whatever the cost may be
>   We shall fight on the beaches
>   We shall fight on the landing ground
>   We shall fight in the fields and in the streets
>   We shall fight in the hills
>   We shall never surrender...
> That's all. Sorry if anyone was annoyed by my mail :)
> Irek.

OK - I'll bite. A band with a "nazi" image sings a song based on
Churchill's "We shall fight on the beaches" speech? - What is the
message here, Irek?
John



John Gillies
Department of Psychology
Adam Smith Building
University of Glasgow
Glasgow  G12 8RT                      Tel: (0)41 339 8855 ext.5351
Scotland
                         johng@psy.gla.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Apr 1994 12:58:12 CET
From:    "LTC Donnell, Doug" <4atf@PIRMASENS-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: GEN: BGen R.L. Scott, Jr (part 2)

Here's the second, and last, excerpt from the article I mentioned
yesterday:

Scott said his most memorable mission happened around Christmas 1942.

They had received word that a Japanese bomber strike force was en route.
Scott's unit scrambled 18 aircraft and climbed to 19,000 feet.

"Coming out of the sun, we could see the Japanese formation," he said.
"Pure arrogance -- they didn't even bring a fighter escort.  We went straight
in and shot down every one of their bombers (19 of them).  But we lost
the battle because we lost two pilots and two airplanes and just didn't
have the resources to replace them."

In that exchange, Scott personally had one of his best flying days,
which he highlights in his book, "The Day I Owned the Sky".

"I went for the lead ship," he said, recreating the scene with hand
gestures.  "I got so close, the enemy bomber filled my windshield.
That way you don't have to aim.  I just did a short burst and dove under
the Janapese ship.  He went down in flames.  Then I went after his
wingman and shot him down.  A lot of them were going down by this time,
and I went after the ones trying to get away."

Scott credits his combat success to two things: advice from his grandpa
and Chennault.

"My grandpa always told me that when you're hunting quail, never shoot
at the covey," the fighter pilot explained. "He siad you need to pick out
one quail and take him out.  Then concentrate on another.  The same thing
goes for air combat. Don't shoot at the formation.  Pick out one aircraft
at a time."  Scott said Chennault was a master at this.

"Chennault's units had a 14-1 kill ratio," he pointed out.  "He was a great
commander.  I met him, and I lived happily ever after."

Chennault's advice came in handy on more than one occasion.  "One time
I was flying and heard an unidentified noise," Scott said.  "I went
to the top of the clouds to check it out.  I saw a lone airplane in
front of me so I got my guns ready and started to go for it.  Then I
remembered something General Chennault told me.  He said, "Scotty, if
you ever see a lone airplane, always look up into the sun to see if
there's an escort.'"

Too late, he looked up and spotted two zeros."

"I was already committed so I wentr in," he said, shaking his head at
the error.  "I shot down the bomber, hitting it in exactly the right
place -- where the wing and fuselage meet.  Then I headed for the
clouds.  As I went into this thick overcast, I knew the Zeros were
right behind me.  So just as I came out of the cloud cover, I did
the fastest turn I'd ever done in my life.  A Zero was headed right
for me, and I shot it down.  Then I took out the other."

Quoted from AIRMAN magazine, Mar 94.   Scott also said "The cockpit of
the P-40 was the only office I ever liked and the only desk I ever
appreciated".
                         Doug Donnell

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Apr 1994 07:14:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: INF: USAAF 8-10 APR 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
SATURDAY, 8 APRIL 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  F-7, Consolidated Liberator
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, nearly 100 fighter-bombers and 2
B-25s again pound Mogaung Valley targets, including Manywet, storage areas
and railroad at Mogaung, positions at Shaduzup and general targets of
opportunity around Kamaing; 4 B-25s damage bridge and track at Sittang.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 11 B-24s bomb railroad yards at Hanoi, French
Indochina. In China, 6 B-25s damage several small ships in Yulinkan Bay; 2
others strafe an airfield on Weichow Island; 8 P-40s pound oil dumps at
Wanling, leaving the target area in flames. 9 B-24s bomb the airfield on
Samah Bay, Hainan Island; 4 others lay mines in the bay.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 291: 3 separate forces, a
total of 664 bombers divided into 13 combat wings, escorted by 780 fighters,
are dispatched against airfields in NW Germany and aircraft factories in the
Brunswick area; 34 bombers and 23 fighters are lost.
  1. 59 of 59 B-17s hit Oldenburg Airfield; 32 B-17s are damaged; casualties
are 5 WIA.
  2. 255 B-17s are dispatched to Achmer, Quakenbruck and Rheine Airfields; 83
hit Quakenbruck, 60 hit Achmer, 41 hit Rheine, 22 hit Twente Enschede, 21 hit
Hesepe, 19 hit Handorf and 3 hit targets of opportunity; 4 B-17s are lost and
128 damaged; casualties are 1 KIA, 3 WIA and 40 MIA.
  3. 350 B-24s are dispatched to aviation industry targets in Brunswick; 190
hit the primary, 59 hit Rosslingen, 48 hit Langenhagen Airfield and 6 hit
targets of opportunity; they claim 58-9-32 Luftwaffe aircraft; 30 B-24s are
lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 87 damaged; casualties are 8 KIA, 23 WIA
and 300 MIA.
  Escort is provided by 136 P-38s, 438 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s and
206 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-51s; the fighters claim 88-3-46 Luftwaffe
aircraft in the air and 49-6-38 on the ground. Details are:
  1. P-38s: 5 as lost and 3 damaged; 5 pilots are MIA.
  2. P-47s: 4 are lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 12 damaged; 4 pilots are
MIA.
  3. P-51s: 14 are lost and 3 damaged; 14 pilots are MIA.
  Mission 292: 5 of 5 B-17s drop 1 million leaflets on Liege, Brussels,
Ghent, Antwerp, and Mont-sur-Sombre, Belgium at 2215-2227 hours without loss.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In Belgium, 198 B-26s attack Hasselt
marshalling yard and hit Coxyde Airfield; and 32 P-47s bomb the area around
Hasselt.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): HQ 484th Bombardment Group
(Heavy) and 824th and 827th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy) arrive at Torretto
Airfield, Italy from the US with B-24s; first mission is 29 Apr.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium bombers attack a
bridge NW of Orte while A-20s successfully attack supply stores; fighter-
bombers hit several bridges, motor transport, and supply dumps in C Italy,
and bomb railroad tracks at Sesti Bagni and Maccarese.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-24s flying out of Kwajalein
Atoll, strike Truk Atoll; Abemama Island-based B-25s pound Ponape Island;
B-25s from Tarawa Atoll hit Maloelap Atoll, rearm at Majuro Atoll and bomb
Jaluit Atoll during the return flight.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): During the night of 7/8 Apr
6 B-25s heckle the Kavieng Airfield area on New Ireland Island. On New
Britain Island, 50+ fighter-bombers hit the NE section of Rabaul and 24 B-25s
bomb the center of Lakunai Airfield. 4 B-24s again pound Monoitu Mission on
Bougainville Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, P-40s attack
targets of opportunity in the Aitape-Wewak area; and A-20s hit targets in the
Hansa Bay area, firing a fuel dump and destroying several warehouses and
other buildings at 3 plantations and strafing and bombing roads and bridges
along the coast.
  HQ 417th Bombardment Group (Light) moves from Dobodura to Saidor, New
Guinea.

SUNDAY, 9 APRIL 1944

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): A weather sortie over Matsuwa Island is
negative due to low clouds and fog.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, the Mogaung Valley is pounded by
100+ fighter-bombers and a few B-25s; the aircraft hit town areas, bridges,
storage areas, support ground forces, and hit targets of opportunity in
general in or near Mogaung, Kamaing, Laban, Hopin, Myitkyina, and Nsopzup; 25
B-25s and P-51s hit fuel dumps at Indaw, bomb a road near Manhton and support
ground forces at Lasai; 6 B-24s bomb Mandalay railroad yards, another bombs
nearby Maymyo, and 13 others mine areas near Mandalay and Magwe; also in the
Mandalay area, 11 P-38s damage several locomotives, numerous railroad cars
and set a steamer afire near Ywataung.
  The detachment of the 24th Combat Mapping Squadron, Tenth Air Force,
operating from Hsinching, China transfers to Jorhat, India with F-7s; the
squadron is based at Guskhara, India.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 2 B-25s claim a 200-ft (61 m)
tanker sunk off Cape Bastion and 3 fighters shot down over Yulinkan Bay.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 293: 542 bombers and 719
fighters are dispatched against aircraft factories and airfields in Germany
and Poland; the bombers claim 45-8-14 Luftwaffe aircraft; 32 bombers and 10
fighters are lost; 10 bombers are damaged beyond repair. Details are:
  1. 145 B-17s are dispatched to aviation industry at Rahmel, Poland and
Marienburg, Germany; 96 hit Marienburg, 41 hit Rahmel and 3 hit targets of
opportunity; 6 B-17s are lost and 44 damaged; casualties are 8 KIA, 9 WIA and
60 MIA.
  2. 151 B-17s are dispatched to hit the Focke-Wulf plant at Poznan, Poland
and the Heinkel plant at Warnemunde, Germany; 85 hit Warnemunde, 33 hit
Poznan and 18 hit Marienehe Airfield; 12 B-17s are lost and 93 damaged;
casualties are 6 WIA and 120 MIA.
  3. 246 B-24s are dispatched to hit an assembly plant at Tutow, Germany; 106
hit the primary, 14 hit Parchim, Germany and 6 hit targets of opportunity; 14
B-24s are lost and 30 damaged; casualties are 17 KIA, 6 WIA and 140 MIA.
  Escort is provided by 119 P-38s, 387 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s and
213 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-51s; the fighters claim 20-1-6 Luftwaffe
aircraft in the air and 19-0-8 on the ground; no fighter support is available
over the targets because of bad weather or distance; details are:
  P-38s: 2 are lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 9 damaged; casualties are 1
KIA and 2 MIA.
  P-47s: 4 are lost, 1 is damaged beyond repair and 2 damaged; casualties are
2 KIA, 2 WIA and 3 MIA.
  P-51s: 4 are lost and 1 damaged beyond repair; 1 pilot is MIA.
  Mission 294: 5 of 5 B-17s drop 2.752 million leaflets on Rouen, Paris,
Amiens and Caen, France at 2224-2338 hours without loss.
  23 B-24s are dispatched on CARPETBAGGER operations.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 14th Liaison Squadron, US Strategic
Air Forces in Europe (attached to US Third Army), arrives at Alderley Edge,
England from the US with L-5s; first mission is in Jul.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 815th, 816th, 817th and 840th
Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), 483d Bombardment Group (Heavy), arrive at
Sterparone Airfield, Italy from the US with B-17s; first mission is 12 Apr.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, P-40 and A-36 fighter-
bombers bomb the railroad line between Rome and Bracciano, hitting tracks, a
station, and a warehouse; attack Littoria and Terracina, repair shops NW of
Valmontone and several gun positions; and bomb scattered motor transport
during armed reconnaissance of the Avezzano-Sora-Pontecorvo-Ceprano areas.
  379th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 310th Bombardment Group (Medium),
moves from Ghisonaccia, Corsica to Fano, Italy with B-25s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-24s on a photo reconnaissance
mission over Maloelap, Wotje, and Mille Atolls, Marshall Islands, and a
single Tarawa Atoll-based B-25 bombs Taroa Island, Maloelap Atoll; B-25s, in
a shuttle mission from Abemama Island, bomb Jaluit Atoll, rearm at Majuro
Atoll, and then hit Maloelap Atoll.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 23
B-25s bomb Lakunai; 31 fighter-bombers hit Ralum supply areas while 22 others
strike Wunapope; and during the night of 8/9 Apr, 7 B-25s fly heckling
missions against Rabaul.
  394th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 5th Bombardment Group (Heavy), ceases
operating from Munda, New Georgia Island; the squadron is based on
Guadalcanal Island with B-24s.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 55 B-25s bomb
the Aitape area while B-24s and A-20s hit Wewak, Boram, Cape Moem, AA
positions along Hansa Bay, and barges SE of Mushu Island and in the Wagol
River; and P-39s hit troops, barges, and bridges in the Madang, Awar, Bogia
and Bunabun areas.
  675th Bombardment Squadron (Light), 417th Bombardment Group (Light), moves
from Dobodura to Saidor, New Guinea with A-20s.

MONDAY, 10 APRIL 1944

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): In the Kurile Islands, 3 B-24s fly armed
reconnaissance over Matsuwa and Onnekotan Islands.

  CARIBBEAN (Sixth Air Force): 29th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), VI Bomber
Command, moves from the Galapagos Islands to Howard Field, Canal Zone with
B-24s.

  ZONE OF INTERIOR (First Air Force): 1st Search Attack Group and 2d, 3d
and 4th Search Attack Squadrons (Heavy) are disbanded at Langley Field,
Virginia; these units tested equipment and developed techniques and tactics
for ASW, flew ASW patrols and served as an OTU for radar training.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, about 100 fighter-bombers and a
few B-25s pound numerous targets, including an encampment SW of Mogaung,
positions near Kazu, a railroad and truck park at Myitkyina, a supply area S
of Myitkyina, and a bivouac area and supplies at Kamaing; some of the fighter-
bombers carry out support of ground forces NE of Kamaing; 40+ fighter-bombers
and B-25s over the Katha area hit a bridge at Thityabin, troops and supplies
at Shwegu, gun positions and troops S of Mawlu, and targets of opportunity
including a fuel dump; and 9 B-24s bomb the railroad station and jetty area
at Moulmein while 4 others mine the mouth of the Tavoy River.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 3 B-25s damage 2 bridges at Phu Dien Chau,
French Indochina, and destroy several buildings and some railroad track. 10
P-40s pound roads N and S of Wanling, Burma.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (XX Bomber Command): The Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS)
informally approve Operation MATTERHORN, the plan for the bombing of Japan by
B-29s based in the Calcutta, India area and staging through advanced fields
in the Chengtu, China area, which had been approved in principle by
President Franklin D Roosevelt on 10 Nov 43. The operational vehicle is to be
the 58th Bombardment Wing (Very Heavy) (4 bombardment groups) of the XX
Bomber Command, soon to be assigned to the newly activated Twentieth Air
Force, operating under General of the Army Henry H "Hap"  Arnold as executive
agent for the JCS.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 295: 729 bombers and 496
fighters are dispatched to hit aviation industry targets and airfields in
Belgium and France; 3 bombers and 2 fighters are lost.
  1. 238 B-17s are dispatched to bomb aviation industry targets in Belgium;
123 bomb the aviation industry and airfield at Evere, 52 hit Brussels/
Melsbroek Airfield, 39 hit aviation industry targets at Brussels, and 20 hit
Bergen op Zoom; 1 B-17 is lost and 99 damaged; casualties are 4 WIA and 10
MIA.
  2. 248 B-17s are dispatched to hit aviation industry targets and airfields
in Belgium and France; in Belgium, 62 hit Maldagem Airfield, 60 hit Diest/
Schaffen Airfield and 42 hit Florennes/Juzaine Airfield; in France, 21 hit
Courcelles and 21 hit Beaumont sur Oise Airfield; they claim 0-2-1 Luftwaffe
aircraft; 1 B-17 is lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 19 damaged; casualties
are 10 MIA.
  3. 243 B-24s are dispatched to hit the airfield and aviation industry
targets; in Belgium, 151 hit the airfield and aviation industry at Bourges;
in France, 28 hit Orleans/Bricy Airfield, 21 hit Romarantin Airfield and 15
hit V-weapon sites at Marquise/Mimoyecques; they claim 6-0-0 Luftwaffe
aircraft; 1 B-24 is lost and 3 damaged; casualties are 1 WIA and 10 MIA.
  Escort is provided by 51 P-38s, 295 P-47s and 150 Eighth and Ninth Air
Force P-51s; details are:
  1. P-38s: no claims or losses.
  2. P-47s claim 12-0-7 Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 P-47 is lost and 4 damaged; 1
pilot is MIA.
  3. P-51s claim 40-0-16 Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 P-51 is lost and 1 damaged; 1
pilot is MIA.
  Mission 296: Three forces are dispatched on fighter-bomber missions; all
include P-38 Droopsnoot aircraft:
  1. 39 P-38s are dispatched to attack Florennes/Juzaine Airfield, Belgium;
no losses or claims.
  2. 51 P-38s and 7 P-47s are dispatched to attack St Dizier, France; the
primary is cloud covered and 16 P-38s attack Coulommiers Airfield, France; 2
P-38s are lost and 1 damaged; 2 pilots are MIA; the P-47s claim 2-0-1
Luftwaffe aircraft on the ground.
  3. 28 P-38s and 46 P-47s are dispatched to bomb Gutersloh, Germany; 1 P-38
is lost, the pilot is MIA.
  Mission 297: 5 of 5 B-17s drop 2 million leaflets on Lille, Le Mans,
Chartres, Reims and Orleans, France at 2212-2258 hours local without loss.
  23 B-24s are dispatched on CARPETBAGGER operations.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 258 B-26s and 41 A-20s, including 12
aircraft dropping Window, attack coastal batteries at Le Harve/Le Grand
Hameau, France and military installation nearby. In Belgium during the
afternoon 267 B-26s and A-20s bomb the marshalling yard, airfield, coastal
defenses, and NOBALL targets at Charleroi/Montignies, Namur, Coxyde, Nieuport
and other points on the N coast of W Europe. 47 P-47s dive-bomb the airfield
at Evreux, France.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 776th Bombardment Squadron
(Heavy), 464th Bombardment Group (Heavy), arrives at Pantanella Airfield,
Italy from the US with B-24s; first mission is 30 Apr.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, A-20s hit an ammunition
dump at Gallicano nel Lazio; B-25s bomb the Orvieto marshalling yard and 2
bridges; B-26s hit Poggibonsi and Cecina railroad bridges and tracks, and
viaducts at Bucine and W of Arezzo; fighter-bombers operating over wide areas
of C Italy and in the battle zones hit railroad bridges, railroad cars, motor
transport, barracks, and troop concentrations with good effect.
  522d, 523d and 524th Fighter-Bomber Squadrons, 27th Fighter-Bomber Group,
move from Pomigliano to Castel Volturno, Italy with A-36s and P-40s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-24s, staging through Eniwetok
Atoll, bomb Truk Atoll (1 hits Ponape Island) while B-25s, based on Abemama
Island, strike Ponape. B-25s, flying a shuttle mission between Tarawa and
Majuro Atolls, pound Maloelap and Jaluit Atolls.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 22
B-25s bomb the Ratawul supply area and 40+ fighter-bombers hit the runway at
Tobera, both strikes causing considerable damage; night harassment of the
Rabaul area continues.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): About 60 B-24s, teaming with
US destroyers offshore, bombard the Hansa Bay, New Guinea area, concentrating
on AA positions guarding airfields.
  672d Bombardment Squadron (Light), 417th Bombardment Group (Light), moves
from Dobodura to Saidor, New Guinea with A-20s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Apr 1994 06:48:32 CDT
From:    jesse carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: WWII air show in Baton Rouge, LA

Sorry guys ;

I MEANT that Ryan (formerly Harding Field) airport was the activation point
for the 91st BGof ... (correction follows now) ...Twelve O'Clock HIGH fame.

SNAFU mine.


Jesse Carnes
notjic@lsuvm.sncc.lsu.edu
Baton Rouge, LA

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Apr 1994 07:02:37 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hs-293

Hello, Gudmundur!

Here goes with some more info, and I was able to locate more info on
the Hs-294 and will post that to you. Anyway, here goes with the A-1
and A-2.

                     A-1


This was Werner von Braun's first design developed at Kummersdorf.
Accounts are conflicting and about all that can be said with
certainty is that it never left the ground.




                    A-2

Werner von Braun's second try. Two were successfully launched on the
island of Borkum in the Baltic in Dec 1934 and gave the first
encouragement to the liquid fuel school of thought.




    More later. I didn't have much time last night to do more than
the above.

    All the best.

    Terry






Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Apr 1994 08:07:19 -0500
From:    "W.C. DIVENS" <ERCOUPE@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: WWII air show in Baton Rouge, LA

>I MEANT that Ryan (formerly Harding Field) airport was the activation point
>for the 91st BGof ... (correction follows now) ...Twelve O'Clock HIGH fame.

>SNAFU mine.


>Jesse Carnes


I'm confused here...

The following is from WHEN HOLLYWOOD RULED THE SKIES:

"The character of Frank Savage, for example, closely paralleled that of
Colonel Frank Armstrong, Jr., commander of the first 8th AF bomber group
based in England.  It was Armstrong who was ordered, early in 1943, to
take command of and rebuild the battered 306th bomb group based in
Thurleigh.  In three months of bomber operations over Eutope, the unit
had suffered some of the highest losses in the ETO.  The group later
became the model for the fictitious 918th Bomber Group"

So there never was a 918th, was there?

Bill
N93774@vms.cis.pitt.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Apr 1994 07:18:30 CDT
From:    jesse carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: WWII air show in Baton Rouge, LA

Guys ;

>From what Frank Donofrio of the Memphis Belle group in Memphis TN tells me,
it was partly the heroics of Manny Klette, the heroics of the Memphis Belle
crewe, and the 91st BG that partly went to create Twelve O'Clock High, the
book, the motion picture and the television series.

If the 306 BG out of Thurleigh contributed a share, I have no data to refute
that claim ... I just know what Frank Donofrio told me.

However, I could ask Jim Verinnis, co-pilot of the Belle and pilot of his own
plane, the Connecticut Yankee if there is anything to the 306 theory.

BTW gentlemen, as you WELL know already I am sure, the 91st also had some of
the most costly losses during its tenure over Festung Europa (Nov '42-Apr '45).


Jesse Carnes
notjic@lsuvm.sncc.lsu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Apr 1994 08:38:10 EST
From:    Aldo <HUBERT@PHYSICAL.UNCG.EDU>
Subject: Black Widow

I'm just curous if anyone has any combat info. on the Black Widow
airplane?  From the specs I've seen it looks like a there were fast,
well armed versions, but you never hear anything about it.  For
example how did it fair against Zeros (it was mainly in the PTO,
right ?) at night?

Any info would be interesting.



Aldo M. Hubert
                                           Aldo_Hubert@uncg.edu
University of North Carolina at Greensboro
800 Oakland Ave.
Greensboro NC 27412

Sic Friatur Crustum Dulce

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Apr 1994 08:53:36 EDT
From:    Richard Kaplan <kaplanr@CLP2.CLPGH.ORG>
Subject: INF: Collar Tabs

Bill,
        The photo of Mac doesn't identify the officer, though a second one
behind Mac has the same type of tabs.  The peaked caps have what look like
roundels on the upper angled front of the cap (where we have the eagle) and on
a vertical strip above the visor.



                                        Richard Kaplan
                                        Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh


(Mac is pretty as a picture too, in Jodphurs, boots, and enough decoratio
 to start a museum.)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Apr 1994 07:59:16 CST
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: war & music: Laibach

I heard of a band called "Ghost of an American Airman".  It is a
Britishgroup, and they sound a lot like "The Crash Test
Dummies"--no---not the two guys on the commercial, but the band.  My
memory is pretty fuzzy of them, because I heard them on a Sunday morning
driving to drill at o-dark-something, but they were pretty good.


TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Apr 1994 08:04:54 CST
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN: BGen R.L. Scott, Jr (part 2)

I've never read "The Day I owned the Sky", but it has a picture of BGen
Scott in a current flight suit, leaning up against an F-16 single
seater.  Did they let this guy fly one recently?  Did he go solo?  I
knew he flew jets in the '50's, but letting him fly an F-16?  Letting a
man in his 60's fly a very hot fighter, while not on active duty?  It
seems possible, but unlikely--sounds like Sam Nunn pulled some strings
or something (Sam Nunn lives about 5 minutes from Warner Robbins).

TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Apr 1994 06:45:26 -0700
From:    "Office TH325, Extension 3566" <RIEGSECKER@UPS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Pacific-inferior equipment?

>From:         Jon Stevens <JSTEVENS%DAVID.BITNET@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>

>Regarding the discussion on inferior equipment going to the Pacific Theater,
>My dad, USMC 2nd Div, WWII, was not issued a bayonet or a knife before
>shipping out for the Pacific.  He had to write home and ask his mom to
>send him one.  She bought a bayonet at a surplus store in Chicago  that had
>been chromed.  Needless to say he got it but spent a long time trying to
>get rid of that shine by plunging it into a bucket of sand.
>
>My question is --  was basic equipment like this simply not available in
>large amounts in 1942?  Did the Marine Corps recieve less material than
>the Army or even inferior material than the Army? Or was what happened to
>my dad just a fluke?
>
>Jon Stevens jstevens@david.wheaton.edu

I'm reading a book now titled "There's a War to be Won -- The United
States Army in World War II" by Geoffrey Perret.  He talks about the
Germany first stategy and says:

     For all that, Germany First turned out to be something of an illusion.
     For the next eighteen months more troops and materiel were shipped
     across the Pacific than across the Atlantic.  It proved impossible not
     to respond to Japanese expansion.

His source for this remark is:

Richard M. Leighton and Robert W. Coakley, "Global Logistics and Strategy
1940-1943 (Washington D.D. 1955) 662.

>From what I've read, all branches were short of good equipment, and
each was sure the other branches (or the British and Russions) were
getting it all (sometimes with good reason it would appear.)

On a slightly different topic, it's instructive to read books describing
an incident from the two perspectives.  For example a navy perspective
and an army perspective.  Most accounts of Sicily that I've seen talk
about navy ship gunfire breaking up a tank attack and saving the day so
to speak.  Perret never mentions the navy's role.  In fact about the
only time he mentions the navy is to say that they had a monopoly on
engines and had the pick of the best draftees.

John Riegsecker
Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
University of Puget Sound

riegsecker@ups.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Apr 1994 10:47:58 -0400
From:    Steven VEST <vest@ALPHA.ACAST.NOVA.EDU>
Subject: Re: SPAIN'S FRANCO AND "K

(Another one of Lou's diatribes against Vietnam protesters deleted.)

> Please, Lou...
>
>      This is the World War II discussion, not the place to denegrate a whole
> generation that wasn't alive during WWII -- my generation, of which I will tell
> anyone I have not the slightest shame and a good deal of pride. I would kindly
> suggest there must be some other place where those remarks would be appropriate
> or at least on topic.
>
>      Thank you for endulging my interruption... Now, where were we?
>
>      Jim Brady
>

Well said Jim.  I agree wholeheartedly.  Thanks!

==========================vest@alpha.acast.nova.ed===========================
= Steven Vest: Head, Off Campus Lib. Services: Nova University, Ft. Ldl, FL =
= Two broken tigers, on fire in the night, flicker their souls to the wind. =
=                                     Al Stewart--Past, Present and Future. =
===============No statements made here reflect Nova University===============

Yes I'm back.  I couldn't stay unsubscribed when I heard Joe was running
the list.  I couldn't stand to miss out on those Kelly's quotes!

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Apr 1994 08:34:56 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: war & music: Laibach

> > There's also group Laibach, which image is very nazi-like. They wore dark
> > brown shirts and ties and their music is very totalitary. Guys are from
> > Slovenia (former Yugoslavia).

I remember the first time I saw one of their videos, "Life is Life", late at
night on MTV.

"I didn't know that Leni Riefenstahl did any videos.  Cool" :)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Apr 1994 10:30:21 -0500
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: VET: Search for German vet by name?

> However, I'd be interested in beginning the difficult task of seeing if I can
> track down the service record(s) of anyone with the last name Brohm.
>
> Robert J. Granvin

Hi Robert,

I didn't find an exact match but this is what I did find:

BROHME Hans Joachim  Uffz    Beobachter    13/09/43

what this means:

I found a fellow who is named Hans Joachim Brohme who was an
Unteroffizier (corporal) and flew as a Beobachter (observer).
He was awarded the Ehrenpokal (Honor Goblet) on 13 Sept. 1943.

This reference came from Horst Schiebert's book _Die Traeger
Ehrenblattspange des Heeres und der Waffen SS; Die Traeger der
Ehrentafelspange der Kriegsmarine; Die Inhaber des Ehrenpokals fur
besondere Leistung im Luftkrieg_ 1986.  Ain't that a mouth full?

Kinda reminds me of Hitler's first title to his book that eventually
became known as _Mein Kampf_.  It was something like "Seven years of
struggle against stupidity, ignorance and bureaucracy" but Hitler was
finally convinced that the text should be longer than the title. 8^o

Anyway, to your request again, I can't say with any degree of
certainty that this is your man but it could be.  I have tunics in my
collection where the name is mis-spelled in this fashion because the
names were not put in by the owners but by their tailors.  If the man
was away from home the tailor there may not be familiar enough with
the man to spell the name correctly (they use lots of umlauts and
sometimes they swap an o" for an oe etc.).  If the tailor is not
German then the sky is the limit on how the name will be spelled!.
Sure makes researching folks a real joy when that happens....

Brohme has an extra syllable than Brohm so they may be two different
people.  There were no matches in the Luftwaffe rank list of 1945
which means he never made it as high as Captain or died prior to 1945.
The Ehrenpokal book was the best bet since it lists all winners of
that award and most pilots and aircrew in the Luftwaffe seemed to be
enlisted types as in this case.  I also checked the German Cross and
Knights Cross books with no matches or near matches.

Where to go from here:

Step 1)  check the flightsuit again to ensure the name is correct and
note any rank insignia (or evidence thereof ie missing patches on the
sleeves that will give some idea of how many "gulls" were there).

Step 2)  If we still believe this could be our boy then we compose
letters to the Bundesarchiv in Koblenz, the Bundesarchiv-Zentralnach-
weisstelle in Aachen and the Krankenbuchlager in Berlin.  Explain who
you are and what you are looking for and provide all the data you
have which in this case is first and last name rank and his job.  He
may have been promoted subsequent to his pokal award so they may have
a higher rank for him in their records.  Be sure to specify that
this man was in the Luftwaffe.   The Berlin Document Center would not
be likely to have anything on him unless he was a Nazi party member.
BDC deals mainly with political people rather than military but they
have extensive files on the entire SS.

Step 3)  Sit back and wait.


That's about it.  If you would like the addresses to these archives
say the word and I'll e-mail them to you.

Best of luck,  Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Apr 1994 11:23:50 LCL
From:    jim.brady@CHRYSALIS.ORG
Subject: HELP: CONTACT

Message to Terry Moore: did my direct emails earlier this week reach you going
to RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU ?

Sorry for the interruption, fellow listers..
     --JVB

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Apr 1994 12:25:33 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: WWII air show in Baton Rouge, LA

Hello, Jesse!

I would only add that my feeling was that the history of the "Bloody"
100th became the basis for the movie "12 O'clock High". There was
much juxtapositioning by Hollywood to come across with such a story,
but, it seems to me that the writers borrowed much from different
sources to produce this movie, but the setting and moods definitely
seem to me have come from the sad tale of the 100th Bomb Group.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Apr 1994 12:31:44 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Pacific-inferior equipment?

Hello, John!

I would only like to comment that the basic reason for the inferior
equipment being available in 1940-1941 was due to the cost conscious
and budget-cutting Congress of the 1930's. Nothing has really been
said about this, but I think that was the crux of the problem. By the
time this country became aware of the fact that we were going to go
to war at some point in the near future, it was too late to update
and upgrade equipment to a level that would have compared favorably
with the other warring nations. Thus, the poor folks in the Pacific
had to make do with WWI rifles, ammo, etc. The same arguments we hear
nowadays and have heard about cutting the military were the same in
1939. I think, more than anything, this contributed to this most
unfortunate situation that found our forces in the Pacific so lacking.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Apr 1994 10:51:04 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: RCAF

Your pungent if incoherent post about being "pissed off" at Canadians
because the "Canadians allow the British to take all the RCAF's credit"
reads oddly, to say the least.
We RCAF-ers take a backseat to no-one, in our combat record, or in retaining
full credit for it, from the British or anyone else. It's probably certain
of your shallwesay ancient prejudices speaking [ :-) ]
        If you are sincerely interested, though, I suggest you do some
reading of actual history of air-war in WW2, beyond that of the gallant
USAAF.  An excellent starting point for you would be REAP THE WHIRLWIND
by Spencer Dunmore, 1992.  It's the story of RCAF 6 Group, RAF Bomber
Command in the Second World War.  Your Celtic outrage may be getting in
the way of understanding that Canadian units fought as a component of
the Royal Air Force.  As well, many other Canadian volunteers from the
RCAF served in various other RAF squadrons. So many, that there were at
times as high as 30% of RAF aircrews being from Canada. We certainly got
a good deal of "credit" from the British, from extensive and grateful
press coverage at the time to a lavish number of medals and awards for
bravery in air combat.  WE don't feel slighted in the least. But then,
you had to have *been* there to know how it really was....

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Apr 1994 11:06:38 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: WWII German radio tech, size, range ...

In the early 1970s, a German automatic radio weather transmitter was
discovered intact on the coast of Labrador, Canada.
The unit was designed to record wind and temperature then radio the
information across the Atlantic to German monitoring stations. The
information was useful for german naval and air operations.
The radio beacon had apparently been secretly set up by a U-Boat around
1942, and remained there in an isolated spot in Labrador until
accidentally discovered.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Apr 1994 13:05:00 CDT
From:    jesse carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: WWII air show in Baton Rouge, LA

BTW, Terry ;

I was only transliterating what I had read from a book on the MemphisBelle,
as well as some dialogue with Frank Donofrio (head of the Memphis Belle Mem.
Assoc. and former of the 8th AAF.


Jesse

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Apr 1994 11:26:57 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: RCAF

Thank you, sir, for your gentlemanly post... "no need for bravado..."
        It's comical, to see the occasional comic-book effusion on here,
a yearning for schoolboy war-stories, not to mention excitable folk who
trumpet about "ripping the lid off" some so-called unknown fact or other
-- usually when the facts concerned are quite widely known to everyone
else.... :-)
        A Maple-leaf accolade to you for characterizing those more
modest Yanks the rest of us prefer.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Apr 1994 14:24:56 EDT
From:    Archie <SOASMITH@ECUVM1.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Pacific-inferior equipment?

Terry
I think perhaps the Great Depression and the subsequent spending of large
sums from the national treasury probably had much to do with the lack of
equipment available near the beginning of WWII.
Some felt that the war to end all wars had obviated the need for a large
military.  The failure of the US to join the League of Nations and the
general isolationism of the nation at that time added to the reluctance
to support the military in general and R&D in particular.  Look what happened
to Gen. Billy Mitchell for his demonstration of air warfare potential.
Zeitgeist most likely!

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Apr 1994 11:43:18 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: RCAF

You raise two excellent areas...
        I share your distress that present-day obesssions with apartheit
quite onscure the magnificent contributions of South African forces in
two world wars.
        The South African army fought with tremendous courage and ability
on the Western Front during the First World War. So gallantly, that the
segment of land at Deville Wood, France, is ceded to South Africa in
perpetuety, recognizing the SA Division's bravery there.  The Deville
Wood Memorial honors all South Africans who fell in battle during the
1914-1918 war; not only in France, but in Flanders, Palestine, East
Africa, and other theatres of war.
        During the SEcond World War, South Africans served in East
Africa against the Italians, in Ethiopia and Somaliland, and against the
germans in North Africa, Italy, and Northwest Europe. There were many
South African airmen serving also in RAF squadrons.
        South African losses numbered over 21,000 dead in the two world
wars (9,3000 in WW1, and 11, 900 in WW2).
        With the accession of a predominantly "Boer" government in the
Union oif South Africa in 1948, the country left the Britisg Commonwealth,
and is now the South African Republic.  With all its current problems,
one should not forget that South Africa did previously serve in democracy's
cause.
lest We Forget...

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Apr 1994 11:56:37 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: RCAF

Your second point, black units in British service...
        A wide variety of "black" regiments and units served with British
forces in both world wars.  They mainly were raised in East and West Africa.
        The Kings African Rifles, for instance. Other "African" regiments
were recruited in what was then Nigeria, Gold Coast, Kenya, etc.  Many of them served as infantry in Burma alongside British army regiments, and in North
Africa as part of the British Eighth Army.
        Similar origins were those of various West Indian regiments, from
Jamaica, Trinidad, Barbados, and so on.  Also, there was a sprinkling of
black airmen who served creditiably as pilots and navigators in RAF bombers.
I myself, met a Jamaican who had been a navigator with RAF Bomber Command,
and had survived a tour of 30 raids over Germany and France.
        Black regiments are an interesting study all of themselves.
Regards.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Apr 1994 12:04:15 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: INF: German II collar tabs.

Your mentioning Erich von Stroheim...
        I came across some details about the real background of that actor
who "typified the Prussian officer".
        The reality is to some degree hilarious.  It seems "von Stroheim"
was in fact an Austro-Hungarian Jew, who was aprivate soldier in a pre-
WW One cavalry regiment in Vienna, who deserted at the first signs of
a war in the offing.  He made his way to Hollywood, where he enjoyed a
vastly entertaining, and profitable, life terrorizing studio executives
and movie-goers alike with his portrayal of a fearsome Junker...
        No wonder "von Stroheim" always kept his face so straight...
:-)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Apr 1994 12:21:45 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: USAAF Regulations Question

Re mascots aloft.
You asked "what was the official policy" regarding taking up mascots.
FORBIDDEN.
Which some aircrew ignored, and took along their mascots.
I know of one cocker spaniel that survived several hundred hours on
anti-submarine air patrols.
Not to mention certain two-legged "mascots" in skirts that are whispered
to have been taken up for joyrides.... :-)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Apr 1994 19:47:12 MET-1
From:    Bognar Attila <MOTEL@BTKSTUD.JPTE.HU>
Subject: Re: HELP(IMHO...)

HE,

IGSMKAFA TMTIW ROTFL. AFAIK TUOTMAIST (IST?) TPMOTAP.

TYFYKH, IHAI.

BTW HAJFYA (IAW AT): WWYHTOMII HNITSPA?

TA, TTFN (BBFT)








Hi everybody,

I got so many kind and funny answers that many times I was ROTFL.
AFAIK the use of this many abbreviations is significant to (IST?)
the practical mindedness of the American people.

Thank you for your kind help, I highly appreciate it.

BTW here's a joke for you all (IAW all this): What would you have
thought of me if I had not included this second part also?

Thanks again, TTFN (Blame Bill for this)


All the best,

Attila  motel@btkstud.jpte.hu

PS.: Look at my new address, please.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Apr 1994 12:26:19 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: USAAF Regulations Question

In the segment of THE WORLD AT WAR series, showing the Germans high-tailing
it out of Tunisia, one sees a large Alsatian dog struggling to get aboard
a Luftwaffe plane through the belly-hatch. No airman likes to leave his
mascot buddy behind.  :-)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Apr 1994 12:39:51 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: USAAF Regulations Question

A classic bit of politically-correct outrage regarding a wartime mascot
happened last year in Britain.  A clutch of PC twits aimed retrospective
outrage at Wing Commander Guy Gibson (killed in action in WW2), and wanted
his memory villified -- because he had named his mascot labrador dog,
"Nigger".  Not a very sensitive name for a black dog, of course, but some
people were unselfconsciously like that back then. Anyway, the long-gone
dog's moniker was considered grounds for PC concern. 'Bit futile, considering
man and dog have been dead some 50 years.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Apr 1994 16:33:22 -0400
From:    Daniel Ford <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN: BGen R.L. Scott, Jr (part 2)

On Fri, 8 Apr 1994, LTC Donnell, Doug wrote:

> Scott said his most memorable mission happened around Christmas 1942.
>
[deletions]
>
> "I was already committed so I wentr in," he said, shaking his head at
> the error.  "I shot down the bomber, hitting it in exactly the right
> place -- where the wing and fuselage meet.  Then I headed for the
> clouds.  As I went into this thick overcast, I knew the Zeros were
> right behind me.  So just as I came out of the cloud cover, I did
> the fastest turn I'd ever done in my life.  A Zero was headed right
> for me, and I shot it down.  Then I took out the other."
>
> Quoted from AIRMAN magazine, Mar 94.

If General Scott shot down a retractable-gear Japanese fighter that day,
it would have been a Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa of the army air force, called
Oscar by Allied pilots.

There were no Zeros over the mainland of China in 1942. During the Pacific
War, in fact, Japanese navy fighters attacked the interior There were no
Zeros over the mainland of China in 1942. During the Pacific War, in fact,
Japanese navy fighters went inland on only one occasion that I know of, to
Nanning on 5 Apr 1944. (One of the few occasions that Japanese losses and
American claims tallied exactly: 9 Zeros lost out of 32.)

Cheers - Dan Ford   <e-mail: dan.ford@unh.edu>
                    <postal: 433 Bay Road, Durham NH 03824 USA>
                    <voice/fax: +1-603-868-5850>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Apr 1994 15:57:06 -0500
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: USAAF Regulations Question

Hi folks,

This talk of mascots fired a synapse in the void I use to keep my ears
apart.  I have a book that shows photo of a little scotty dog fitted
out with his own parachute.  He was owned by a German Fallschirmjaeger
unit commander.  From the caption, as I recall, the dog had made a few
combat assaults.

It didn't say if he qualified for his parachutist badge :-I

Have a good weekend, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Apr 1994 16:01:36 -0500
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: INF: Collar Tabs

>         The photo of Mac doesn't identify the officer, though a second one
> behind Mac has the same type of tabs.  The peaked caps have what look like
> roundels on the upper angled front of the cap (where we have the eagle) and on
> a vertical strip above the visor.
>                                         Richard Kaplan

Hi Richard,

Yeah, I'm sure they are German officers.  The hats you describe are
just exactly the style worn by the Reichswehr up to 1934.

Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Apr 1994 16:09:05 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Pacific-inferior equipment?

> I would only like to comment that the basic reason for the inferior
> equipment being available in 1940-1941 was due to the cost conscious
> and budget-cutting Congress of the 1930's. Nothing has really been
> said about this, but I think that was the crux of the problem. By the
> time this country became aware of the fact that we were going to go
> to war at some point in the near future, it was too late to update
> and upgrade equipment to a level that would have compared favorably
> with the other warring nations. Thus, the poor folks in the Pacific
> had to make do with WWI rifles, ammo, etc. The same arguments we hear
> nowadays and have heard about cutting the military were the same in
> 1939. I think, more than anything, this contributed to this most
> unfortunate situation that found our forces in the Pacific so lacking.

One of the major examples for why history and understanding of history
is so important.

Santayana...

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Apr 1994 16:18:26 -0500
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: HELP(IMHO...)

> HE,
>
> IGSMKAFA TMTIW ROTFL. AFAIK TUOTMAIST (IST?) TPMOTAP.
>
> TYFYKH, IHAI.
>
> BTW HAJFYA (IAW AT): WWYHTOMII HNITSPA?
>
> TA, TTFN (BBFT)
>
>
> Thanks again, TTFN (Blame Bill for this)
>
> Attila  motel@btkstud.jpte.hu


It wasn't me, nobody saw me do it, you can't prove a thing!!! :-)

Cheers, Bill Huber

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Apr 1994 19:25:48 -0400
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: USAAF Regulations Question

> Not to mention certain two-legged "mascots" in skirts that are whispered
> to have been taken up for joyrides.... :-)

Actually, when on leave and keeping current (i.e. "back home") it was
permitted to take up a wife or other family member in a trainer or some
other aircraft, but the opportunities were quite limited.

However, while there was actually a sanctioned policy to _allow_ this
type of rare event, the unknown forbidden version clearly outnumbered
the legal ones.

I love war stories.  :-)

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Apr 1994 22:09:21 -0500
From:    Jon Stevens <JSTEVENS@DAVID.BITNET>
Subject: Re: War and Music

Check out Iron Maiden,  "Aces High"  It is about the Battle of Britain.
Nothing to do with Nazis...

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Apr 1994 23:20:40 EDT
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor,
         Marist Coll" <JZML@MARISTB.BITNET>
Subject: Re: war & music: Laibach

>There's also group Laibach, which image is very nazi-like. They wore dark
>brown shirts and ties and their music is very totalitary. Guys are from
>Slovenia (former Yugoslavia).
>Here's text from their song "The Great Seal" from "Opus Dei" CD:
>  We shall go on to the end
>  We shall fight on the sees and the oceans
>  We shall fight in the growing confidence and growing strength in the air
>  We shall defend our island whatever the cost may be
>  We shall fight on the beaches
>  We shall fight on the landing ground
>  We shall fight in the fields and in the streets
>  We shall fight in the hills
>  We shall never surrender...
>That's all. Sorry if anyone was annoyed by my mail :)
>Irek.
Irek - This is part of a speech Winston Churchill made to the British
House of Commons on 4 June 1940 after the Dunkirk evacuation.
I find it to be amusing that this group would plagiarize the words
of the great anti-nazi Churchill (or as he would have put it; "anti-
narrrrzzzi."

Jonah Triebwasser
Adjunct Instructor
Marist College
Dyson Building (Adult Education)
Poughkeepsie, New York12601
Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
E-Mail: jzml@maristb.marist.edu

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 7 Apr 1994 to 8 Apr 1994
***********************************************

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There are 4 messages totalling 64 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Franko...
  2. USAAF Regulations Question
  3. WWI-L PLEASE READ
  4. General Scott and the F-16

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 9 Apr 1994 15:20:44 MET-1
From:    Bognar Attila <MOTEL@BTKSTUD.JPTE.HU>
Subject: Re: Franko...

A good reading on the Republicans and Stalinists would be Orwell's
Hommage To Catalonia (I have retranslated the title again, but I'm
sure you'll find it). He was there actually fighting on the
Republican side and could miracolously (sp?) escape the purges.

All the best,

Attila  motel@btkstud.jpte.hu

PS.: Look at my new address, please.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 9 Apr 1994 11:02:44 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: USAAF Regulations Question

Dogs were actually trained in parachuting with the US Airborne during
WW2. Several K9 Corps scout dogs dropped by chute into combat.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 9 Apr 1994 11:19:13 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: WWI-L PLEASE READ

Good to read you wish to start a Great War list.
Count me in, when you go over the top.
meanwhile, I'll remain at Stand To.   :-)
Regards.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 9 Apr 1994 17:00:41 -0400
From:    Daniel Ford <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>
Subject: General Scott and the F-16

A previous post asked about BG Robert Lee Scott Jr and his flight
in a F-16 Falcon jet. Scott tells the story in THE DAY I OWNED
THE SKY. (He was never handicapped by modesty: he owned the sky,
and God was his co-pilot!) Though regulations forbade anyone over
60 from flying a jet fighter, an exception was granted by Gen
Charles Gabriel, USAF chief of staff. Scott went through the
flight simulator and had a medical check. Then, on July 19, 1984,
he took off as the rear-seat passenger in a F-16 Falcon jet with
Col Rick High in the front seat. Scott took the controls after
takeoff, and by his account made one turn and a simulated rocket
attack on a ground target. After some simulated combat, evidently
with Col High flying, Scott made two touch-and-go landings and
perhaps finally landed the plane. The F-16 had taken him as fast
as 400 knots, as high as 46,000 feet, and (according to a
certificate bestowed by Col High) subjected him to 9 Gs. He was
76 years old.

Cheers - Dan Ford   <e-mail: dan.ford@unh.edu>
                    <postal: 433 Bay Road, Durham NH 03824 USA>
                    <voice/fax: +1-603-868-5850>

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 8 Apr 1994 to 9 Apr 1994
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 7 messages totalling 149 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. NOST: 50 years ago this week
  2. RCAF
  3. help
  4. Yes!  There IS a Navarone! (2)
  5. Memphis Belle (2)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 9 Apr 1994 22:22:50 EDT
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor,
         Marist Coll" <JZML@MARISTB.BITNET>
Subject: Re: NOST: 50 years ago this week

I have obtained two calendars, one from the International Churchill
Society and one from the US Department of Defense which highlights
some of the events of WWII. As time permits, I will post some of
these events:

Fifty Years ago this week:

11 April - Jock Colville (Churchill's Private Secretary at 10 Downing
Street) notes how Churchill is "tired and worn out." (c)
12 April - Germans begin evacuation of Crimea. (c)
13 April - Churchill questions policy of bombing France. (c)
14 April - Churchill hopes to unite Serbs, Croats and Slovenes in
Yugoslavia. (c)
16 April - Red Army captures Yalta. (c)

Sources: (c) = Churchill society; (d) = Defense Dept.



Jonah Triebwasser
Adjunct Instructor
Marist College
Dyson Building (Adult Education)
Poughkeepsie, New York12601
Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
E-Mail: jzml@maristb.marist.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 10 Apr 1994 13:19:46 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: RCAF

Bill Devens...
        'Thought of you just now, when I came across EAST AND WEST
AFRICANS IN BURMA.
        Article written in 1947. Says in part:
        "... African regiments had performed magnificently against the
Italians in the Abyssinian campaign, but how would the reacts to the
Japanese? ... Early in 1942, the East African Brigade sailed for Ceylon,
leaving the West African Brigade, stillneeded to protect against French
attacks through Vicy-controlled territory in West Africa.... Later, the
Vicy danger having gone, the WAs were released to join their fellow-
Africans for training to fight the Japanese. Two complete African
Divisions were formed; the 81st Div. completed in April 1943, and the
82nd Div. in October, 1943..."
Have a bit more along these lines, if you are at all interested.
Regards.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 10 Apr 1994 21:06:43 -0400
From:    William Eldridge <eldridge@WORLD.STD.COM>
Subject: Re: help

On Wed, 6 Apr 1994, Terry Moore wrote:

>
> IMHO stands for In My Honest Opinion
>

I thought it was In My Humble Opinion...?

-- Bill Eldridge

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 10 Apr 1994 21:24:42 -0500
From:    mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: Yes!  There IS a Navarone!

OK, all you people:

A while back, some of you (gently) laughed at my question
  about whether/where there was/is a Navarone, as in
  "Guns of Navarone."

Wellllll, I am here to tell YOU that there is an entire 1-page
  "Navarone" subchapter in Charles W. Koburger, JR., -'s 1993
  book NAVAL WARFARE IN THE EASTERN MEDITERRANEAN, 1940-1945,
  p. 112.  (... well, 3/4s of a page, anyway.)

Obviously, SOME members of this list are not QUITE as well-read
  as other members are.

:-)

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 10 Apr 1994 19:41:13 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Yes!  There IS a Navarone!

Perhaps, but what does the half-page SAY about Navarone?
        BTW: There's an actual *Mars*, too, but one scarcely takes
Jules Verne's stories to be anthing other than fiction.  :-)

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 10 Apr 1994 22:01:17 -0500
From:    Hans Werner <werner@CC.UMANITOBA.CA>
Subject: Memphis Belle

A quick question which I am sure can be answered easily by the expert
knowledge represented on the list. My son and I just watched the movie
'Memphis Belle' and he is also building a model of the airplane. The movie
airplane has waist gunners and the Revell model apparently does not. Which
is correct?

Hans
_____________________________________________________________________________
Hans Werner                             | "The boogey man is goin to git'im!"
University of Manitoba                  |               -Clay
Department of History                   |

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 10 Apr 1994 23:48:58 -0400
From:    John Peterson <PETERSJL3522@SNYONEVA.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Memphis Belle

>Date: Sun, 10 Apr 1994 22:01:17 -0500
>From: Hans Werner <werner@CC.UMANITOBA.CA>
>
>A quick question which I am sure can be answered easily by the expert
>knowledge represented on the list. My son and I just watched the movie
>'Memphis Belle' and he is also building a model of the airplane. The movie
>airplane has waist gunners and the Revell model apparently does not. Which
>is correct?
>
>Hans

Hans:
     Last I knew, all B-17's had 2 waist guns.  The 'Belle' certainly did.
Strange that a model wouldn't include them.

Cheers,
John Peterson
PETERSJL3522@snyoneva.bitnet

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 9 Apr 1994 to 10 Apr 1994
************************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 10 Apr 1994 to 11 Apr 1994
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Status: O

There are 34 messages totalling 1434 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Memphis Belle (6)
  2. INF: USAAF 11 APR 44
  3. Yamato: Obituary (2)
  4. RCAF No. 424 Squadron
  5. HELP(IMHO...) (3)
  6. Pacific-inferior equipment?
  7. Hs-293
  8. GEN: BGen R.L. Scott, Jr (part 2)
  9. GEN: Lt Michael's Medal of Honor
 10. ADMIN: Intro to WWII-L (2)
 11. Roger Waters: When the Tigers Broke Free (3)
 12. A-4 (2)
 13. SPECULATION: No WWII for USA without Pearl Harbor? (3)
 14. Weap: Triumph of the Will (2)
 15. obsolete equipment
 16. "German soldier from 1936-49" ??
 17. Yamato : Obituary
 18. SPECULATION: US offensive to Moskva after 5.45?
 19. DDAY, NORMANDY OPERATION OVERLORD.....

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 02:15:18 -0500
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Memphis Belle

In message World War II Discussion List writes:
> >Date: Sun, 10 Apr 1994 22:01:17 -0500
> >From: Hans Werner <werner@CC.UMANITOBA.CA>
> >
> >A quick question which I am sure can be answered easily by the expert
> >knowledge represented on the list. My son and I just watched the movie
> >'Memphis Belle' and he is also building a model of the airplane. The movie
> >airplane has waist gunners and the Revell model apparently does not. Which
> >is correct?
> >
> >Hans
>
> Hans:
>      Last I knew, all B-17's had 2 waist guns.  The 'Belle' certainly did.
> Strange that a model wouldn't include them.

Indeed.  All B-17s had waist gun positions.

The first production B-17 (the B model) introduced them.  (The A model
was essentially the prototype which never saw production).

While the configuration of the waist gun positions changed throughout the
B through G life cycle of the aircraft, the gun positions were always
there.  (Early models had actual gun blisters.  These were quickly removed
and replaced with the more favored and simple "open window" design.  The
locations of these gun windows moved from time to time in model changes,
but no model ever shipped without those positions.

Are you sure they really aren't there?  An inaccurate model may have the
window scored into the fuselage, but not "cut out."  They are quite
non-descript when viewed from the outside at a distance (or on a model).

Any model of a production B-17 without waist guns is completely inaccurate
unless it was modeling the photo-recon version (F-9, I believe).  These
special purpose aircraft did not have armament, and the turrets and gun
positions would have been deleted and covered over.


--
Robert J. Granvin                                             rjg@stat.umn.edu
University of Minnesota, School of Statistics
         "I'm my father?  I'm my mother?  I'm chipped beef on toast?"

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 07:13:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: INF: USAAF 11 APR 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
TUESDAY, 11 APRIL 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
Ventura, Lockheed

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): Of 3 B-24s attempting to fly a photographic
and bombing run over Matsuwa Island installations, 2 must turn back; the
third bombs the runway area.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 17 P-51s and B-25s fly ground
support missions and bomb a road near Maungkan; Mogaung Valley targets are
pounded by 50+ fighter-bombers and 2 B-25s; targets include HQ and stores at
Sahmaw, HQ and ammunition dump SW of Mogaung, troops at Myitkyina, and
targets of opportunity to the S, a gun position S of Kamaing, and HQ at
Waingmaw.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In French Indochina, 3 B-25s hit railroad
targets of opportunity N of Vinh and seriously damage a bridge S of Thanh
Hoa.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (XX Bomber Command): Units arriving in India from the
US: HQ 444th Bombardment Group (Very Heavy) and 676th Bombardment Squadron
(Very Heavy) at Charra with B-29s (first mission is 5 Jun); and 25th
Bombardment Squadron (Very Heavy), 40th Bombardment Group (Very Heavy), at
Chakulia with B-29s (first mission is 5 Jun).

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 298: 917 bombers and 819
fighters are dispatched in 3 separate forces to bomb production centers
(primarily fighter aircraft factories) and targets of opportunity in N
Germany; 64 bombers are lost, one of the heaviest single-day losses of World
War II. The bombers also drop 2.4 million leaflets. Details are:
  1. 341 B-17s are dispatched to hit aviation industry targets at Sorau (108
bomb) and Cottbus (17 bomb); 127 hit Stettin, 20 hit Trechel, 16 hit
Dobberphel and 23 hit targets of opportunity; they claim 12-2-3 Luftwaffe
aircraft; 19 B-17s are lost, 3 damaged beyond repair and 190 damaged;
casualties are 12 KIA, 13 WIA and 200 MIA.
  2. Of 302 B-17s dispatched, 172 hit Rostock, 52 hit Politz, 35 hit the
industrial area at Arnimswalde and 15 hit targets of opportunity; they claim
34-20-19 Luftwaffe aircraft; 33 B-17s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and
153 damaged; casualties are 2 KIA, 9 WIA and 330 MIA.
  3. 274 B-24s are dispatched to hit aviation industry targets at
Oschersleben (121 bomb) and Berenburg (99 bomb); 9 bomb aviation industry
targets at Halberstadt, 9 bomb Eisleben and 5 hit targets of opportunity;
they claim 27-2-1 Luftwaffe aircraft; 12 B-24s are lost, 1 damaged beyond
repair and 63 damaged; casualties are 5 KIA, 9 WIA and 122 MIA.
  Escort is provided by 124 P-38s, 454 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s and
241 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-51s; the fighters claim 51-5-25 Luftwaffe
aircraft in the air and 65-0-67 on the grounds. Details are:
  1. P-38s: no losses.
  2. P-47s: 7 are lost and 16 damaged; 7 pilots are MIA.
  3. P-51s: 9 are lost and 13 damaged; 9 pilots are MIA.
  Mission 299: 5 of 5 B-17s drop 2 million leaflets on Paris, Rouen, Le Mans,
Rennes, Vichy, Lyon, Limoges and Toulouse between 2301 and 0055 hours local
without loss.
  12 B-24s are dispatched on CARPETBAGGER operations.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In Belgium, 229 B-26s and 36 A-20s,
including 3 dropping Window, attack Charleroi/Montignies, military
installations on the coast, and Chievres Airfield. 90+ P-47s dive-bomb
a military installation and Gael Airfield, France.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s hit the Montalto
di Castro railroad bridge, while B-26s hit marshalling yards at Ancona and
Siena; fighter-bombers concentrate on attacks against railroad targets NE of
Rome and buildings inland from the E coast; tracks are hit hard in the
Arezzo-Pontassieve area as are stations at Maccarese and Cesano; an overpass,
bridges, railroad cars and dumps throughout C Italy are attacked, as is the
town of Gaeta.
  488th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 340th Bombardment Group (Medium),
moves from Gaudo Airfield, Italy to Alesan, Corsica with B-25s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-25s from the Gilbert Islands
hit Ponape Island, rearm at Majuro Atoll, and carry out a shuttle mission
against Jaluit and Maloelap Atolls.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): Thirteenth Air Task Force
(Provisional) is created by General George C Kenney, Commanding General
Allied Air Force (Southwest Pacific Area), from elements of the Thirteenth
Air Force and other units.
  On New Britain Island, about 40 fighter-bombers hit the E section of Rabaul
while 12 others strike Talili Bay ammunition dump; 24 B-25s blast supply
areas at Ratawul. On Bougainville Island, 20+ fighter-bombers are dispatched
against coastal gun positions but fail to locate their objective; 12 of the
fighter-bombers bomb Aitara while 2 claim destruction of a bridge near
Mawareka.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 80+ A-20s and
B-25s, supported by 30 P-47s and P-40s, blast AA positions, stores, dumps and
personnel areas at Hollandia; 50+ B-24s bomb barges, AA guns, and other
targets along Hansa Bay which is also hit by 12 B-25s. 12 other B-25s bomb
targets on Karkar Island.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 12:26:53 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <smb@NETMGRS.CO.UK>
Subject: Yamato: Obituary

Browsing (as I do), the obituaries in the Daily Telegraph (April 9th 94)
I came across the announcement of the death of one
Kenneth Huntington of Santa Cruz, CA aged 72. The obituary says that
as a bomber pilot, he sank the Yamato with a single bomb.

Is this a spectacular feat of arms, or has the obituary writer omitted
to mention the countless other torpedoes and bombs that (as I have read)
hit the Yamato before she sank?

Steve Baldwin
smb@netmgrs.co.uk

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 07:24:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: RCAF No. 424 Squadron

Last week, Alan Hepburn asked for some "biographical" information about his
father's old RCAF unit, No. 424 Squadron.  This is what I found.

No. 424 (Bomber) Squadron, Royal Canadian Air Force, was formed at
Topcliffe, Yorkshire, England on 15 Oct 42, the 23d RCAF squadron, and
sixth bomber squadron, formed overseas.  The squadron, nicknamed "Tiger",
was assigned to RAF No. 4 Group, RAF Bomber Command.  Wing Commander
(USAF Lieutenant Colonel) H.M. Carscallen took command of the squadron on
20 Oct 42; Carscallen had a long and distinguished career in the RCAF
retiring in Aug 63 as an Air Vice Marshall (USAF Major General).  The
squadron began equipping with Vickers Wellington B. Mk. III aircraft,
with the unit code QB, in Oct and embarked on an intensive training
regime.

On 1 Jan 43, No. 6 (RCAF) Group was activated to assume command of six
RCAF bomber squadrons at four stations in England, i.e., Croft, Dalton
and Dishforth, Yorkshire and Middleton St. George, Durham.  Two other
bases in Yorkshire were added on the next two days, Leeming on 2 Jan and
Topcliffe (with No. 424 Squadron) on 3 Jan.  No. 6 (RCAF) Group,
reporting directly to RAF Bomber Command, would eventually command all
RCAF bomber squadrons in Bomber Command.

On the evening of 15/16 Jan 43, five Wellington B. Mk III's of No. 424
Squadron flew the squadron's first mission of the war against Lorient,
France.  In February, the squadron started converting to Vickers
Wellington B. Mk. X's and the Mk. III aircraft were gone by Apr 43.  Also
in Apr 43, Wing Commander G.A. Roy, DFC succeeded Wing Commander H.M.
Carscallen as Officer Commanding.

In the Spring of 1943, the Allies were planning the invasion of Sicily
and Italy.  As part of these plans, three RCAF bomber squadrons, Nos.
420, 424 and 425 with Wellington B. Mk. X's, were detached from No. 6
(RCAF) Group and assigned to the RCAF's No. 331 (Medium Bomber) Wing
which had been formed to control these squadrons.  The 424th flew their
last night mission on 16 Apr 43 and then made preparations for transfer to
North Africa.  The ground crew departed England 16-27 May 43 and established
HQ at Kairouan/Pavillier, Tunisia on 23 Jun 43; the aircraft departed England
on 5-7 Jun.  The squadron flew their first mission on the night of 26/27
Jun 43 when ten Wellington B. Mk. IIIs bombed Sciacca, Sicily, the HQ of
the Italian Air Force's 150th Wing.  During their stay in the Mediterranean,
these three RCAF squadrons took part in the softening up of Sicily and Italy
for the invasions.  The squadrons sent out bombers almost nightly to bomb
airfields, harbors, freight yards and rail junctions and they became known
for their ability, even under cover of darkness, to hamper enemy road
movements in areas adjacent to the beachhead.  On 30 Sep, the squadron moved
to Hani East Landing Ground, Tunisia; on 3 Oct 43, Wing Commander J.P.
McCarthy relieved Wing Commander Roy as Officer Commanding; and the squadron
flew their last mission  in the Mediterranean 5 Oct 43.  When their tour was
over, the three  squadrons handed their Wellingtons over to RAF units and
departed for England.   No. 426 Squadron left Hani East LG on 26 Oct.

The squadron returned to Skipton-on Swale, Yorkshire, England on 6 Nov 43
and was assigned to No. 63 (Operational) Base, No. 6 (RCAF) Group; No. 63
Base controlled RCAF stations Leeming and Skipton-on-Swale, Yorkshire.  The
squadron began equipping with Handley Page Halifax B. Mk. III and after a
training period, resumed operational missions on 18 Feb 44.  Wing
Commander A.N. Martin relieved Wing Commander McCarthy as Officer Commanding
on 18 Dec 43; he was killed in action on 21 Jan 44 and was replaced as
Officer Commanding the next day by Wing Commander J.D. Blane; Blane was
killed on 28 Jul 44 and replaced by Wing Commander G.A. Roy, DFC; Roy was
shot down and became a POW on 9 Oct 44 and was replaced by Wing Commander
C.C.W. Marshall.  In Jan 45, the Halifax B. Mk. IIIs were replaced by Avro
B. Mk I and IIIs and Flight Lieutenant (USAF Captain) J.F. Thomas and crew
flew the squadron's 2,000th four-engine sortie on 21 Mar 45.  Wing Commander
R.W. Norris replaced Wing Commander Marshall as Officer Commanding on 27 Mar
45 and saw the squadron flew it's last mission on 25 Apr 45.  On that day, 10
Lancaster B. Mk. I and IIIs were dispatched to bomb gun positions on
Wangerooge Island, Germany; 9 bombed the primary and the tenth dropped its
bombs 3 miles (4.8 km) from the target when the pilot was hit the eye by a
splinter.

After the war, the squadron remained in England as part of RAF Bomber
Command's strike force and began flying liberated POWs from the Continent
to Europe.  The RCAF's No. 63 (Operational) Base was disbanded on 31 Aug
45 and No. 424 Squadron was reassigned to the RAF's No. 1 Group, RAF
Bomber Command.  Wing Commander R.D.P. Blagrave replaced Wing Commander
Norris as Officer Commanding on 1 Oct 45 and he oversaw the disbandment of
the squadron on 15 Oct 45.

The squadron statistics for World War II are:

1. Sorties: 3,257 including 668 from North Africa and 39 airlifting 884
   ex-POW's from Europe to England.
2. Operational flying hours: 17,478.
3. Non-operational flying hours: 7,106
4. Bomb tonnage dropped: 8,776 tons
5. Victories: 9 aircraft destroyed and 5 damaged in 60 engagements.
6. Operational casualties: 52 aircraft (including 12 in the
   Mediterranean), 37 KIA, 252 MIA, 14 POW and 10 injured.
7. Non-operational casualties: 4 aircraft; 9 KIA and 5 injured.
8. Decorations: 1 Companion of the Distinguished Service Order (DSO), 1
   bar to Distinguished Flying Cross (DFC), 49 DFC's, 1 Conspicuous
   Gallantry Medal (CGM), 11 Distinguished Flying Medals (DFM's) and 1
   Mentioned in Despatches (MiD).
9. Battle Honors: English Channel and North Sea 1943-1945; Baltic 1944-
   1945; Fortress Europe 1943-1944; France and Germany 1944-1945: Biscay
   Ports 1943-1944, Ruhr 1943-1945, Berlin 1944, German Ports 1943-1945,
   Normandy 1944 and Rhine; Biscay 1943-1944; Sicily 1943; Italy 1943:
   Salerno.

The squadron was reformed as No. 424 (Light Bomber) Squadron (Auxiliary)
without aircraft at Mount Hope Airport, Hamilton, Ontario on 15 Apr 46
assigned to No. 1 Air Command; the squadron nickname was "Hamilton Tigers."
Wing Commander D.H. Wigle was named Officer Commanding on 1 May 46.   The
squadron was reassigned to the Central Air Command on 1 Mar 47 and, still
without aircraft, was redesignated No. 424 (Fighter) Squadron (Auxiliary) on
1 Apr 47.  The first aircraft, a North American Harvard Mk. II with Unit Code
BA, was received in Nov 47 and the squadron would operate this type aircraft
for the next eleven years.  Wing Commander Wigle retired on 31 Aug 48 and
Wing Commander D.B. Annan, DFC, AFC, CD was named Officer  Commanding on 1
Sep 48.  The only other change in the 1940s was the  reassignment to the
Training Command on 1 Apr 49.

The start of the Korean War saw an expansion of the RCAF in late 1950 and the
auxiliary squadrons benefitted.  On 1 Oct 50, the RCAF (Reserve) Operational
Wing Hamilton was activated to administer and control No. 424 Squadron and a
new Officer Commanding, Wing Commander G.C. Frostad, CD was also named.  In
Nov, the squadron began receiving North American Mustang Mk IV's to
supplement the Harvard Mk. II's.  With the expansion of the Air Defence
Command in 1951, RCAF (Reserve) Operational Wing Hamilton was redesignated
No. 16 (Reserve) Wing and the wing and squadron were reassigned to the Air
Defence Command on 1 Aug 51; the wing was redesignated No. 16 Wing
(Auxiliary) on 1 Sep 51.

A trend for auxiliary squadrons was titling them after their home station
and on 19 Sep 52, the squadron was titled No. 424 "City of Hamilton"
(Fighter) Squadron and a new Officer Commanding, Wing Commander M.G.
Marshall, DFC, CD was assigned on 1 Dec 53.  New equipment arrived in Oct 54
in the form of a Canadair Silver Star Mk. 3.  With the buildup of the regular
Air Force in the mid 1950's, the role of the auxiliary units was changed to
support.  This was seen by the equipment changes in 1956; in May, Beechcraft
Expeditor Mk. 3's were received, the Mustang Mk. 4's were gone in Sep and the
Silver Star Mk. 3 was gone in Oct.  The change to a light transport squadron
became official on 1 Sep 57 when the squadron was redesignated No. 424 "City
of Hamilton" (Transport) Squadron (Auxiliary) and was reassigned to the
Training Command; a new Officer Commanding, Wing Commander R.C. Small was
also named on 15 Nov 57.  On 1 Apr 58, the mission of the auxiliary squadrons
was  removed from their designation and the squadron was redesignated No. 424
"City of Hamilton" Squadron (Auxiliary).  By the end of 1958, the Harvard Mk.
II's were gone and the squadron flew Expeditor Mk. 3's exclusively.

A new Officer Commanding, Wing Commander C.H. Forsyth, CD, was named on 1 Mar
59 and being a light transport unit, No. 16 Wing (Auxiliary) and the squadron
were reassigned to the Air Transport Command effective 1 Apr 60.  The
squadron added another role, emergency rescue, and a de Havilland Otter was
added to the roster in Oct 61 to supplement the Expeditor Mk. 3's.  The last
Officer Commanding was Wing Commander G.W. Johnson, DFC, CD, who assumed
command on 1 Mar 62.  A reduction in the Auxiliary Force in the early 1960's
led to the disbandment of the squadron on 1 Apr 64.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 07:47:17 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: HELP(IMHO...)

On Fri, 8 Apr 1994 19:47:12 MET-1 Bognar Attila said:
>I got so many kind and funny answers that many times I was ROTFL.
>AFAIK the use of this many abbreviations is significant to (IST?)
>the practical mindedness of the American people.
>
>BTW here's a joke for you all (IAW all this): What would you have
>thought of me if I had not included this second part also?

Why, I would have guessed that you hadn't RTFM (-:

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 06:49:12 CDT
From:    jesse carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Memphis Belle

The Memphis Belle had 2 waist gunners, whose names escape me, but whose
names and tally marks appear on the sides of the ol' girl.
She is about 80 per cent completely restored as I speak, a la Frank Donofrio,
head of the Memphis Belle group in Memphis, TN.


Jesse Carnes
"The B-17 is the most forgiving airplane in battle."

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 06:56:38 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Pacific-inferior equipment?

Hello, Archie!

Thanks for the note and I would like to comment on it.

> I think perhaps the Great Depression and the subsequent spending of large
> sums from the national treasury probably had much to do with the lack of
> equipment available near the beginning of WWII.

    Both these statements are certainly correct, but I think also a
cost-cutting, budget-minded Congress of the '3o's had much to do with
that. I am certain that you have seen footage of soldiers training in
the late 1930's, as late as 1939, training with broomsticks to
simulate rifles, trucks labeled tanks, etc. All that was associated
with Congress refusing to allocate funds, and enough of them, to
allow for the development and purchase of modern equipment.

    But you are correct when you say that the Great Depression had
much to with the lack of equipment available for our troops at the
beginning of the war. That which produced a Congress that wasn't
willing to spend the money.

> Some felt that the war to end all wars had obviated the need for a large
> military.  The failure of the US to join the League of Nations and the
> general isolationism of the nation at that time added to the reluctance
> to support the military in general and R&D in particular.  Look what happened
> to Gen. Billy Mitchell for his demonstration of air warfare potential.
> Zeitgeist most likely!

    I think these statements are all accurate. And the tragedy of it
all is that our soldiers were seriously shortchanged and had to pay
for it, much of it needlessly, with their lives.

    Thanks again.

    Terry


Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 07:09:37 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Yamato: Obituary

Hello, Steve!

> Browsing (as I do), the obituaries in the Daily Telegraph (April 9th 94)
> I came across the announcement of the death of one
> Kenneth Huntington of Santa Cruz, CA aged 72. The obituary says that
> as a bomber pilot, he sank the Yamato with a single bomb.
>
> Is this a spectacular feat of arms, or has the obituary writer omitted
> to mention the countless other torpedoes and bombs that (as I have read)
> hit the Yamato before she sank?


    You are absolutely correct. It required many, many torpedoes to
sink the Yamato. I want to say 20-30, but am not certain about the
final total. The writer of that article had, obviously, not done his
homework.

   Terry




Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 07:42:34 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hs-293

Hello, Gudmundur!

Here goes with some more info.

                     A-3

Developed at Peenemuende, this was the first touse a central system
to maintain its flight attitude, the system used was gyroscope. It
was intended as the prototype and test vehicle for the next in the
series, the military A-4 rocket. One was successfully fired in 1938,
but others were not so successful and the A-3 was then abandoned. The
A-5 replaced it as a test vehicle for A-4. The design of this rocket
was originally based on the standard 7.92 mm. rifle bullet, because
of that bullet's good ballistic shape.

    Will send another installment this afternoon.

    Please let me know if you have been getting these.

    All the best.

    Terry










Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 08:51:06 CET
From:    "LTC Donnell, Doug" <4atf@PIRMASENS-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Re: GEN: BGen R.L. Scott, Jr (part 2)

Tim -
It's not too unusual for the AF to give orientation flights in high performance
aircraft (such as the F-15 and F-16), but always in a two seat (trainer)
version. The passenger is, of course, in the back seat.

While it's not unusual (in the sense that it's not particularly newsworthy),
it's dern near impossible to get authorization unless you're someone REALLY
special.  There was a photo in the Stars & Stripes newspaper last week
of our new Secretary of the Air Force, Dr Sheila Widnall, about to head
off into the wild blue yonder in a fighter.

                              Doug Donnell

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 09:12:44 CET
From:    "LTC Donnell, Doug" <4atf@PIRMASENS-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: GEN: Lt Michael's Medal of Honor

I rec'd the following from the USAFE (USAF, Europe) news service:

11 Apr 44 - First Lt Edward Michoel received the Medal of Honor for
his action on this day.  His B-17 was riddled with cannon shells
wounding himself and his co-pilot as well as most of the crew.  Most of
the crew bailed out, but the bombardier's parachute was too badly damaged
and Michoel decided to try a crash landing.  After 45 minutes of evading
German fighters, Michoel took the crippled plane down to a few hundred
feet above the French countryside.  Amazingly, the aircraft flew across
the English Channel to an RAF base.  Both undercarriage and flaps were
inoperable, and the bomb bay doors jammed open.  Although seriously
wounded, Michoel insisted he had enough strength and skillfully brought
the bomber in on its belly.  The aircraft never flew again.

                               Doug Donnell
PS - My typing hasn't improved since my last post. . .his last name
is "Michael".

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 14:51:36 MET-1
From:    Bognar Attila <MOTEL@BTKSTUD.JPTE.HU>
Subject: Re: HELP(IMHO...)

I only wanted to put the blame on you for TTFN. Of course I take the
responsibilty for the rest.

----------------------------

> > HE,
> >
> > IGSMKAFA TMTIW ROTFL. AFAIK TUOTMAIST (IST?) TPMOTAP.
> >
> > TYFYKH, IHAI.
> >
> > BTW HAJFYA (IAW AT): WWYHTOMII HNITSPA?
> >
> > TA, TTFN (BBFT)
> >
> >
> > Thanks again, TTFN (Blame Bill for this)
> >
> > Attila  motel@btkstud.jpte.hu
>
>
> It wasn't me, nobody saw me do it, you can't prove a thing!!! :-)
>
> Cheers, Bill Huber

 All the best,

Attila  motel@btkstud.jpte.hu

"We generally come to conclusions when we grow tired of thinking."

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 10:36:02 -0400
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: ADMIN: Intro to WWII-L

Revision: 8 April 1994
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Welcome to WWII-L, a list dedicated to the discussion of the greatest
cataclysm of the Twentieth century (and, hopefully, the last.) I am Joe
Barone and I'll be listowner until further notice.  I can be reached at
m1b@ssd.ray.com.

        WWII-L will be self-moderated.  This means that each of you will
always try to remember that there is a human being on the other end of the
wire, and the "Golden Rule" is rule number one!

        Our subject is HUGE and not everyone will be interested in everything
that moves over the list.  To ease YOUR burden of sorting the items you wish
to read, I offer the following "flags".  They will go FIRST on the Subject:
line.  (This section will be enforced when traffic gets heavy, otherwise
members may use their discretion on the matter.)

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WEAP  For talk of weapons, usage of weapons, and "My favorite weapon."
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        Some items will overlap, of course, but the main thrust of the item
should be clear.  Try not to ask so many questions in a single post that the
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the main reasons for having the flags at all.)

        You'll be hearing from me if you "forget" this system. I also solicit
additions to this list.  Please keep this table handy until you're comfortable
with the flags.

        Abbreviations are another subject that needs attention.  While many
of us will be comfortable with the most arcane and obscure acronyms and
abbreviations, many of the readers of this list are here to learn more about
the war and will have trouble decyphering your articles if they are packed
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once in your post.

        Similarly, since this list is primarily in English, could we please
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also be expanded once to avoid redundant traffic explaining what such
abbreviations as BTW mean ("by the way").


        Now we come to the REALLY hard part.

        Some subjects have been beaten to death or evoke strong emotional
responses.  However, I realize that they'll come up from time to time.
If you feel that the following topics must be addressed, ensure that your
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        1. The Holocaust.
        2. Internment of Japanese-Americans in the US.

        Also, while conspiracy theories were all the rage during in the 1970s
and 1980s, they're rather passe now.  Their novelty is gone and there is little
or no evidence to support them.  Occam's razor applies here: don't attribute
to malice the results of ignorance.  Accordingly, the following topics are
discouraged:

        1. Did Roosevelt know about the coming attack on Pearl Harbor and
           intentionally do nothing in order to drag the US into the war?
        2. Did Churchill allow the bombing of Conventry to occur in order
           to protect the secret of Ultra?

        One last item, STATE YOUR REFERENCES!  You're in tough company here.
Some of the folks in this list are VERY sharp, and you'll end up with egg on
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        Normally the listserv will want you to subscribe from your own account
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's a tip on getting older messages from the listserver:

Date:         Wed, 16 Sep 1992 18:06:11 CDT
From: DONALD NEWCOMB <NEWCOMB%USMCP6.BITNET@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
Subject:      Getting back articles and the database

  One of the "niftiest" features of the listserver is the database
search. This allows the user to search for any subject and print
either an index of the "hits" or the articles themselves. For
instance if you mail the command sequence below to "listserv@ubvm.bitnet"
or "listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" it will send you an index of all
articles in the archive that deal with weapons (the WEAP: tag).
_
//Job
Database Search DD=Rules
//Rules DD *
sel * in wwii-l where subject contains ("weap:")
index
/*
_
If you change the word "index" to "print" it will return you a copy
of the articles themselves. I think you can start with the listserv
"help" command and find a complete set of instructions  for using the
database. The complete instructions are very complex and should only
be tackled by someone with experience with data searching experience.

Donald R. Newcomb - Univ. of Southern Mississippi - Gulf Park
   <NEWCOMB@USMCP6.BITNET>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Enough talking.  I can be reached at the following address:

Joe Barone, WWII-L Listowner
m1b@ssd.ray.com
W: (401) 842-4054
Always wit' da negative waves, Moriarty!  Always wit' da negative waves!

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 14:02:37 MET
From:    Ireneusz Jakobik <SCUD@PLSZUS11.BITNET>
Subject: Roger Waters: When the Tigers Broke Free

Hi all,
read this:

Roger Waters: When The Tigers Broke Free
----------------------------------------


It was just before dawn
One miserable morning in black '44
When the forward commander
Was told to sit tight
When he asked that his men be withdrawn
And the generals gave thanks
As the other ranks
Held back the enemy tanks
For a while
And the Anzio bridgehead was held for the price
Of a few hundred ordinary lives.

And kind old King George sent Mother a note
When he heard that Father was gone.
It was, I recall, in the form of a scroll,
With gold leaf and all
And I found it one day
In a drawer of old photographs hidden away
And my eyes still grow damp
To remember His Majesty signed
With his own rubber stamp.

It was dark all around,
There was frost in the ground
When The Tigers Broke Free.
And no one survived
>From the Royal Fusiliers,
Company, "C"
They were all left behind,
Most of them dead,
The rest of them dying
And that's how the High Command
Took my Daddy
>From me.

Roger Waters was a "Pink Floyd" member and he wrote this song.
And about Laibach... John, I didn't know that "We shall fight on the
beaches" came from Churchil's speach. Laibach is very provocative group.
Watch their video for "Across the Universe" (originaly The Beatless song)
with young boys wearing Hitler Jugend-like uniforms.
Irek.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 09:27:07 -0500
From:    Stan Koper <skoper@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Memphis Belle

> She is about 80 per cent completely restored as I speak, a la Frank Donofrio,
> head of the Memphis Belle group in Memphis, TN.
>
Is this the same "Memphis Belle" that my kids and I visited last
year at the airport at Norwood, MA?

Stan Koper
skoper@netcom.com
      "Never Let A Machine Know You're In A Hurry"
 This message brought to you by uqwk and Yarn 0.58

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 10:36:21 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: Intro to WWII-L

Bravo Barone!

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 17:13:52 MET-1
From:    Bognar Attila <MOTEL@BTKSTUD.JPTE.HU>
Subject: Re: HELP(IMHO...)

On 11 April Ken Koestner wrote:

> >I got so many kind and funny answers that many times I was ROTFL.
> >AFAIK the use of this many abbreviations is significant to (IST?)
> >the practical mindedness of the American people.
> >
> >BTW here's a joke for you all (IAW all this): What would you have
> >thought of me if I had not included this second part also?
>
> Why, I would have guessed that you hadn't RTFM (-:

ssssssrrrrrrrrrtttttttttteeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaakkkkkkkkk!

(This was meant to be a scream)

 All the best,

Attila  motel@btkstud.jpte.hu

"We generally come to conclusions when we grow tired of thinking."

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 17:18:19 MET-1
From:    Bognar Attila <MOTEL@BTKSTUD.JPTE.HU>
Subject: Re: Roger Waters: When the Tigers Broke Free

On 11 April Irek said:

> Hi all,
> read this:
>
> Roger Waters: When The Tigers Broke Free
> ----------------------------------------
>
>
> It was just before dawn
> One miserable morning in black '44

  **lyrics deleted**

>
> Roger Waters was a "Pink Floyd" member and he wrote this song.

This is a fantastic song. I love it. But why did you quote it here?
Did you want to ask something about it?

All the best,

Attila  motel@btkstud.jpte.hu

"We generally come to conclusions when we grow tired of thinking."

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 12:26:04 CDT
From:    jesse carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Memphis Belle

Stan Koper et al ;

THE "Memphis Belle" which was piloted by Bob Morgan and C/P by Jim Verinnis,
is a "static" B-17 ... in that it does not fly, but stays 'put' w/in its
pavillion on Mud Island, Memphis, TN.

I am puzzed by what you saw, Stan!

I'veheard of female impersonators, but a 'Belle' impersonator?
;-)


Jesse Carnes
notjic@lsuvm.sncc.lsu.edu
B.R., LA
----------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 13:31:00 -0400
From:    DAVID WILMA 415-744-2485 <WILMA.DAVID@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV>
Subject: Re: Memphis Belle

          The model may have the waist windows closed.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 14:58:01 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: A-4

Hello, Gudmundur!

Here goes with some more info.

                      A-4

A-4, generally know as V-2, being so labelled by Hitler as the 2nd of
his Vergeltungswaffen, but always known to the German Army as the A-
4. This was put on paper in 1936 as a design study for a rocket to
supplant heavy artillery. It was a long-range fin-stabilized rocket
weighing 13.6 tons at launch and carrying a warhead loaded with 1 ton
of high explosive. The rocket motor was a bi-fuel type using liquid
oxygen and alcohol and would burn for 70 seconds. Control was
performed by turning the rocket on to a pre-set trajectory after
launch, using programmed controls and then shutting off the motor at
some calculated point to allow the rocket to reach the target on a
ballistic trajectory.

The warhead was filled with 60/40 Amatol (60% TNT and 40% Ammonium
Nitrate) a fact which caused a great deal of head-scratching at
Allied agencies at the time. This is one of the weakest explosives
known and the Germans had plentiful supplies of far more powerful
compositions which would have increased the lethal area of the
warhead by a considerable amount. For some time,  it was assumed that
the answer lay in economics, though with the amount of money being
laid out for such a device, the cost of improving the explosive would
have been but a drop in the bucket. Post-war investigation revealed
that the answer was simply that the warhead underwent considerable
heating in its descent through the atmosphere and any more sensitive
filling would have given premature explosions. The warhead was fuzed
by a simple electrical contact system which closed on impact and had
a slight delay sufficient to allow the warhead to bury about 3 feet
into the ground before detonating.

The accuracy of the A-4 was such that rockets fired at London, with a
mean range of 18 miles could be expected to fall anywhere within a
rectangle 16 miles long by 13 miles wide.

Production of the A-4 began in early 1944 and by 8 Sep, when attacks
began against England, some 1800 were stockpiled. In all, about
10,000 were produced of which 1115 were fired against England, 1341
against Antwerp, 65 against Brussels, 98 against Liege, 15 against
Paris, 5 into Luxemburg and 11 against the Remagen bridge.

More tomorrow, Gudmundur.

All the best.

Terry


























Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 15:08:24 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: SPECULATION: No WWII for USA without Pearl Harbor?

Hello, everyone!

I have one question for the list and would like to know your
thoughts. Would Japan have ever attacked the US if there had not been
an Adolf Hitler?

Reactions?

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 16:12:23 -0400
From:    David Rising <drising@IO.ORG>
Subject: Weap: Triumph of the Will

What, you all query, does the _Triumph of the Will_ have to do with
weapons? Well, when studying the 1934 Nazi propaganda film, I had always
read/heard that the reason that all of the "soldiers" were carrying
shovels was that Germany had not yet had time to re-arm themselves. This
always had seemed like a reasonable explanation, and I didn't question
it. Recently, however, I read a different version of the story. I'm
reading the book _Soldat_ which is a biography of Siegfried Knappe, a
German soldier from 1936-49. At the half-way mark, it's quite good, and I
recommend it as an interesting, quick, read. Anyway, I digress. In this
book, Knappe claims to have been at the Nuremberg rally in 1934 when the
_Triumph of the Will_ was filmed, representing the Labour Service who,
naturally, had parade spades rather than rifles (as they were not
fighting units). Does anyone know the truth to this? Was Germany so short
of weapons, that they "armed" their people with spades for parade
purposes, or were the vast majority of people at the 1934 Nuremberg rally
from the Labour Service? I guess a secondary question would be: were
people required to do Labour Service instead of military service
_because_ there were not enough weapons to go around at the time? Anyway,
I've babbled long enough.
David Rising
(BTW, still no video release date on _Stalingrad_)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 14:39:26 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: A-4

Yes, indeed, a technical marvel.
        One would be remiss not to add the *results* of such technology:
                German V2 rockets killed 2, 541 British
                   "   "    "       "    4, 683 Continental Europeans

Wehrner von Braun's biography was entitled, I AIM AT THE STARS.
Only, sometimes he hit London...

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 17:39:00 EST
From:    Don Bowden <BOWDEN@MGRP.BGSM.WFU.EDU>
Subject: obsolete equipment

        Just a little devils advocate type comments. Would the US have really
been better off manufacuring large numbers of Douglas Devastator's and Bell
Aircobras or P36s in the late 30's not to mention inferior, unreliable tor-
pedoes? While it is often attractive to blame the politicians the military
has often been the author of many of there own problems. Was the lack of an
effective anti-tank gun at the start of WWII the fault of lack of money or
lack of awareness in the planning and procurement of the armed forces. In
the Pacific, with not that many exceptions, existing US (Army) equipment
was the equal or superior to the Japanese counterpart. My impression is that
Japanese Naval equipment both on the water and in the air was superior to
what the USN had. Also, as I recall, Japanese Naval training was much more
rigorous and much better simulated actual battle conditions than that
carried out by the American surface fleet, with the corresponding poor
showing of US surface units through much of the first years of the war.
In spite of the storm clouds on the horizon the US was unprepared politically,
economically, and often militarily for the war and everyone contributed to
this unpreparedness.
        Also an aside about Billy Mitchell, he was arrogant and publicly
questioned the competence of his superiors. As you all know, this is not
the most productive way to influence opinion. In many ways his claims for
bombing/strategic bombing were not close to being technically possible.
He could be thought of as the godfather of the strategic bombing campaign
in WWII, but its impact on the final outcome of the war remains controver-
sial to this day. Enormous resources were spent on it and the losses were
horrific. Geoffrey Perret (sp) has also written a fascinating history of
the USAAF which, like his "There is a war to be won" is filled with often
hilariously acerbic comments. One thing he points out is that the "fighter
mafia" came to dominate the AF. Was that a defacto admission that strategic
bombing was not as important as the advocates suggested.
        A final thought: one of my favorite subjects is the supposed opera-
tional superiority of some Army's compared to the US. At the start of Ameri-
can campaigning in North Africa the British were upset that the American
command didn't accept British suzerainty when they had all the experience.
To paraphrase Geoffrey Perret, from the US point of view, British expertise
and experience to this time in land warfare consisted of defeat, retreat, and
surrender whenever they faced the Germans, which (for some reason) the Ameri-
cans seemed unwilling to emulate. From other reason I have gotten the imprs-
sion that the RAF and USAAF had a much better relationship; the RAF had been
successful and particularly in tactical thinking the Americans borrowed
extensively from the British.
Regards to all,
Don Bowden
Winston-Salem, NC

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 16:44:07 -0500
From:    mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: "German soldier from 1936-49" ??

Was this a typo, or was there some kind of German Army still in
  existence from 1945-49?

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 18:53:40 -0400
From:    Jim Broussard <BROUSSARD@ACAD.LVC.EDU>
Subject: Re: SPECULATION: No WWII for USA without Pearl Harbor?

>I have one question for the list and would like to know your
>thoughts. Would Japan have ever attacked the US if there had not been
>an Adolf Hitler?

>Terry

        I would say yes.  The Japanese were so deeply involved
        in China  that they could not well pull out without huge
        loss of face by all concerned.  But at some point, even
        without Hitler, the US would have embargoed scrap iron &
        oil, & possibly frozen Japanese assets in the US.

        The Japanese would then have faced the same problem they
        actually did: see their economy & especially their military
        capability seriously damaged, or move into Southeast Asia
        to get more resources.

        This would then have posed the same question they actually
        faced: if you're going to do that, do you wait & hope the
        US doesn't respond, or do you try to take out the US
        capability with an attack at Pearl Harbor?  I think their
        decision would have been the same...

Jim Broussard

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 19:12:00 -0400
From:    DAVID WILMA 415-744-2485 <WILMA.DAVID@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV>
Subject: Re: Weap: Triumph of the Will

          I believe that the party members with shovels were members of the
          labor corps rather than surrogate soldiers.  In 1934, the
          National Socialists were still pretending to be a workers' party
          and was not emphasizing military conquest.

          Another note:  I saw a documentary in which one of the film
          makers stated that the music was composed after editing.  the
          reason was that the cameras were still fairly unsophisticated and
          did not operate at the same speed.   As a result, the music had
          to be composed at the tempo of the marchers on the screen and
          each scene had a different tempo.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 15:22:59 CDT
From:    jesse carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Roger Waters: When the Tigers Broke Free

Maybe it is more succinctly :

"We usually employ sweeping generalizations when we grow tired of thinking."

BTW Attila, is that your name or a 'moniker'... alias ... pseudonym... all the
above?   ;-)


Jesse Carnes

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 20:02:37 -0500
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Memphis Belle

In message World War II Discussion List writes:
>           The model may have the waist windows closed.

B-17 waist windows aren't closable (though they may be partially covered
in plexi...)


--
Robert J. Granvin                                             rjg@stat.umn.edu
University of Minnesota, School of Statistics
         "I'm my father?  I'm my mother?  I'm chipped beef on toast?"

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 20:59:04 EST
From:    "CARL WERNKE (TCWERNC@VCCSCENT)" <TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Yamato : Obituary

 X-TO: WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu
 TO: Multiple recipients of list WWII-L(WWII-L@UBVM.BITNET)

 Terry and Steve,

 On 10 Apr 1994, Terry wrote --> You are absolutely correct. It required
 many, many torpedoes to sink the Yamato.

 The last sortie of the Imperial Japanese Navy, and the ships involved, were
 used as diversionary bait. A dash was to be made by the battleship Yamato
 and accompanying ships , designed to draw off as many American planes as
 possible, thus leaving the Allied naval force vulnerable to a large-scale
 kamikaze raid.

 The composition of this last force was code-named TEN GO, which included
 Yamato, 1-CL, and 8-DDs. 6 April was designated TEN GO Day. The Japanese
 were so short of oil at home that the Yamato had only enough to make it to
 Okinawa. If she made it, the plan was to beach her and use her 18-inch
 guns in support of the ground fighting. Many of the ships' captains were
 against the operation, preferring to be let loose as sea raiders, but
 TEN GO was ordered by ADM Osami Nagano, chief of the Naval General Staff.
 At 1600 on 6 April the ships weighed anchor at Tokuyama and started what
 would be the last voyage for most.

 At 0400 on 7 April 1945 a report came stating that 250 planes of Task Force 58
 were headed for the TEN GO force. At 1220 the Yamato signalled the presence
 of many planes, 33,000 yards off her port bow. The fleet had been jumped only
 175 miles south of Kyushu, and the massacre of the last vestiges of the
 IJN had begun. The waves of hundreds of U.S. planes were virtually
 continuous. The Yamato was first hit by bombs at 1240, and then by torpedoes
 on her port side at 1250. She took eight more torpedoes on the port side and
 two starboard; by 1405 the listing ship could not be righted, and
 "Abandon Ship" was ordered. The last torpedo hit at 1417 and caused the
 Yamato's list to go to 20 degrees; finally the ship erupted, sending a cloud
 of smoke upward in a column, thousands of feet above her. From the Yamato,
 there had been 2,498 killed. With the sinking of the great battleship
 Yamato, the once-formidable Imperial Japanese Navy ceased to exist.

 Excerpts were obtained from *The Imperial Japanese Navy (1941-1945)*, by
 Paul S. Dull, 1978.


  EX SCIENTIA TRIDENT

  Carl Wernke

  TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Apr 1994 03:05:17 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@NAT2.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: SPECULATION: No WWII for USA without Pearl Harbor?

On Mon, 11 Apr 1994, Terry Moore wrote:

> I have one question for the list and would like to know your
> thoughts. Would Japan have ever attacked the US if there had not been
> an Adolf Hitler?

On one hand, it was Hitler who made the Japanese sign a non-agression
treaty with the USSR. Without German interference the Japanese might have
preferred to attack Vladivostok rather than Pearl Harbour. The debate on
it was still alive in 1941. And with no war in Europe, a British presence
in the Pacific would have made an attack in that direction less
attractive. The US or Britain would not, under that cirucmstances, have
been inclined to support the USSR in a war against Japan.

On the other hand, the Japanese were likely to attack even if they major
enemies hadn't been occupied with a war in Europe, because the decision
was based on national pride rather than on logic. Without a Hitler the
rearmament of the US would not have begun already in 1940, making the US
even weaker than it really was, and the conflict over China would still
have been there.

My guess: Yes, the Japanese would have attacked someone; but it might as
well have been the USSR instead of the US.

Emmanuel

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Apr 1994 01:50:05 +0000
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <gummihe@ISMENNT.IS>
Subject: Re: SPECULATION: US offensive to Moskva after 5.45?

Hey all

        Didnt Patton wish to continue his 3rd army offensive well beyond
the Reich? I heard somewhere that he wished to take on the Russians
after the Reich would have been beaten. Is this true and if so did other
Western_allied commanders share that view?

        I see the Alliance of UK, USA, Canada and French on the one side
and the USSR on the other side as nothing more than the west sharing
enemy with the USSR.

        Just an idea, nothing to deep though :) I wonder how US, UK, CAN
attack on the USSR would have fared. Guess the public in these countries
would not have accepted that :)

bye for now



Gudmundur J. Helgason                      E-mail:    gummihe@ismennt.is
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Patriotism is the arrogance of assuming that your country is the greatest one
there is, simply because *you* were born there".
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 21:12:31 -0500
From:    Filiberto Farini <afarini@EMBSMOMUIO.INT.EC>
Subject: DDAY, NORMANDY OPERATION OVERLORD.....

DOES ANYBODY OF YOU KNOW where can I find in internet, texts about the dday?
I'm making a monografy, can somebody of you tell me some anecdotes...?

thanks a lot....
 =========================
 Filiberto Farini
 afarini@embsmomuio.int.ec
 Quito - Ecuador
 ==========================

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 10 Apr 1994 to 11 Apr 1994
*************************************************

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Status: O

There are 36 messages totalling 1250 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. A-4
  2. GEN: Rides in Fighters
  3. SPECULATION: No WWII for USA without Pearl Harbor? (2)
  4. Weap: Triumph of the Will (3)
  5. Re[2]: Weap: Triumph of the Will (3)
  6. Roger Waters When the Tigers Broke Free (5)
  7. INF: USAAF 12 APR 44
  8. obsolete equipment (3)
  9. SPECULATION: US offensive to Moskva after 5.45? (2)
 10. A-4B and A-5 (2)
 11. re : weap : early jets
 12. re : RCAF (2)
 13. "German soldier from 1936-49" ?? (4)
 14. Re[2]: Roger Waters When the Tigers Broke Free (2)
 15. info? Prinz von Blucher battleship
 16. Roger Waters: When the Tigers Broke Free
 17. INFO Zerstorer Groups.
 18. New here, please reply?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 19:45:36 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: A-4

> Production of the A-4 began in early 1944 and by 8 Sep, when attacks
> began against England, some 1800 were stockpiled. In all, about
> 10,000 were produced of which 1115 were fired against England, 1341
> against Antwerp, 65 against Brussels, 98 against Liege, 15 against
> Paris, 5 into Luxemburg and 11 against the Remagen bridge.

I don't think that the firings against Paris are popularly known.  What were
the results?

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
> P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
> fax 806-371-5370
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Apr 1994 23:07:04 -0400
From:    Bob Smart <Bob.Smart@SMART.COM>
Subject: Re: GEN: Rides in Fighters

>Tim -
>It's not too unusual for the AF to give orientation flights in high performance
>aircraft (such as the F-15 and F-16), but always in a two seat (trainer)
>version. The passenger is, of course, in the back seat.
>
>While it's not unusual (in the sense that it's not particularly newsworthy),
>it's dern near impossible to get authorization unless you're someone REALLY
>special.  There was a photo in the Stars & Stripes newspaper last week
>of our new Secretary of the Air Force, Dr Sheila Widnall, about to head
>off into the wild blue yonder in a fighter.
>
>                               Doug Donnell

You don't even want to get me started on this one. I worked on F-15s at
Langley AFB ( TAC HQ as well as 1st TFW) for 6 years. The political nature
of 'Eagle Elite' rides ( supposedly doled out as a moral builder for superior
performers) was sickening. And let a celebrity or a Politico from Washington
come down and watch the brass fall all over themselves.  Only thing that pissed
me off more was having to work on holidays just so every request for a Fly-By
could be filled  to keep all the congressmen happy. In six years on the
flightline I worked 5 veterans days, 4  Memorial days & 4th of July and 3 Labor
Days ( and spent one Labor day and one Memorial day either TDY or returning
from a TDY) Oh and I was on the eagle Elite list 3 times and had the list
'put on hold because of operational commitments ( One time was so all the
Air Force Academy cadets that were at Langley for their summer training could
get at least two rides each) Each time the list went on hold it was eventualy
canceled because it was too large to manange and it was started over again.
Each time it started over TAC HQ had their quota's filled first.

Oh when I crosstrained to computer programming and transfered to the Computer
Squadron I was considered ineligable to be put on the list. I was told
"You had plenty of chances when you were in the Fighter Wing and should let
others have a chance to get a ride"

Bob Smart (bsmart@smart.com)

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Apr 1994 10:37:37 CET
From:    "LTC Donnell, Doug" <4atf@PIRMASENS-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Re: SPECULATION: No WWII for USA without Pearl Harbor?

Terry -

I love to speculate. . .it's impossible to be wrong.  My two cents:

I think events in the Pacific were fairly independent of those in
Europe, and that, even without the war in Europe, the Japanese attack
on the US would have taken place.  The Japanese were in the process of
expanding their empire, viewing themselves as the military and economic
leader of the region.  Standing in their way were western powers  -- to
achieve Japanese aims a showdown was inevitable.  While it's quite
possible that the Japanese thought the war in Europe would keep the
European powers otherwise occupied and open the door to their basically
unopposed expansion, I don't think that was a primary factor.  It seems
to me, it was a matter of national pride, a feeling that expansion and
hegemony was vital to their economic future, and that militarily they
would prevail over any opponent.

It's an interesting question and I'll be interested in seeing what
others have to say.
                       Tschuss,
                           Doug

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Apr 1994 10:48:27 CET
From:    "LTC Donnell, Doug" <4atf@PIRMASENS-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Re: Weap: Triumph of the Will

David -
I recall reading in Albert Speer's "Inside the Third Reich" that the
Nuremberg rallies to a huge percentage of the Reich's materiel to stage.
In particular, I think virtually every anti-aircraft spotlight in
Germany was at Nuremberg.  I'm sure there were plenty of other examples,
so it's possible that the spades could have been introduced to make up
for a lack of rifles.

That having been said, I doubt doubt that there was that critical a
shortage of rifles, and, even if there had been, I suspect that the
Nazis would have stripped rifles from units around Germany rather that
publicly demonstate a "weakness".

                           Doug Donnell

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Apr 1994 03:29:08 PST
From:    "Jones, Scott T." <sjones@CCLINK.LOGICON.COM>
Subject: Re[2]: Weap: Triumph of the Will

     This is probably an "Off the wall" comment regarding the use of Spades
     at the Nuremberg Rally but here goes anyway...

     Did the Treaty of Versailles not limit Germany's production of
     offensive weapons? Would it not be prudent for the Germans to hide the
     fact that they are breaking the treaty by NOT bringing these
     "violation weapons" into the open for as long as possible? As a
     result, would it not be in their best interest to show the Nazi party
     as a peace seeking organization ("Look! We have shovels with which we
     farm our land!") instead of the military power ("Look! Now we have
     rifles to farm YOUR land!") they were?

     Please be kind with your disagreements...

     Scott Jones
     Sjones@LOGICON.COM

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Apr 1994 11:52:43 MET
From:    Ireneusz Jakobik <SCUD@PLSZUS11.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Roger Waters When the Tigers Broke Free

Atilla and Scott,
I ftp'ed that song from cs.uwp.edu ftp site and thought that I would
mail it to the WWII list. That's all. I don't know if Waters or any
other Pink Floyd member lost someone during war but according to this song
(and not only this one) it could be true.
Irek.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Apr 1994 07:14:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: INF: USAAF 12 APR 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
WEDNESDAY, 12 APRIL 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 90+ P-40s, A-36s, P-51s, and B-25s
over the Mogaung Valley support ground forces, bomb supply areas, and hit
numerous targets of opportunity in areas around Mogaung, Myitkyina, Kamaing,
Taungni, and Shaduzup; 5 B-25s knock out a bridge at Natmauk while 2 others
damage the Pyu bridge near Rangoon; 5 B-24s bomb Nagorn Sawarn while 7 hit
the Moulmein railroad station and jetties and bomb the SE part of Prome.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 300: 455 bombers and 766
fighters dispatched to bomb industrial targets at Schweinfurt, Zwickau,
Oscheresleben, Schkeuditz, Halle and Leipzig are forced to abandon the
mission because of haze and multilayer clouds; Luftwaffe fighter opposition
is concentrated over N France and the bombers claim 10-6-7 fighters; 6
B-17s are lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 1 damaged; 25 B-24s are
damaged; casualties are 12 KIA, 16 WIA and 56 MIA. Escort is provided by
124 P-38s, 449 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s and 193 Eighth and Ninth
Air Force P-51s; they claim 18-1-3 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 1-0-8
on the ground; 3 P-38s and 2 P-51s are lost, 2 P-47s are damaged beyond
repair and 3 P-38s, 17 P-47s and 1 P-51 are damaged; 5 pilots are MIA.
  HQ 353d Fighter Group moves from Metfield to Raydon, England.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 231 B-26s and 20 A-20s attack
railroad, shore batteries, radar installations, airfields, and V-weapon sites
at Dunkirk and Courtrai/Wevelghem, France; Coxyde/Furnes, De Pannes-Bains,
Saint Ghislain and Ostend, Belgium; and points along the coast. 70+ P-47s
dive-bomb military installations in N France.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 483d Bombardment Group (Heavy)
with B-17s becomes operational, increasing the number of combat status bomber
groups to 17.
  Bad weather lifts, permitting bomber operations; almost 450 B-17s and B-24s
attack targets in Austria and Yugoslavia; the B-17s hit aircraft factories at
Fischamend Markt, Austria and Split, Yugoslavia; the B-24s hit the industrial
area at Wiener Neustadt and Bad Voslau, Austria and the marshalling yard and
air depot at Zagreb, Yugoslavia; 200+ P-38s and P-47s provide escort; the
bombers and fighters claim 30+ enemy aircraft shot down; 8 US airplanes are
known lost and several more fail to return.
  HQ 465th Bombardment Group (Heavy) and 783d Bombardment Squadron (Heavy)
arrive at Pantanell Airfield, Italy from the US with B-24s; first mission is
5 May.
  122d Liaison Squadron, 68th Tactical Reconnaissance Group, moves from
Manduria, Italy to Blida, Algeria with B-17s; the squadron, which has been
transporting supplies to partisans and dropping leaflets in the MTO, will be
redesignated 885th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy) on 12 May and was re-equipped
with B-24s.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium bombers bomb rail
lines approaching the Monte Molino bridge and at a nearby junction to the
Viterbo line, railroad and road bridges S of Orvieto and at Certaldo, tracks
approaching a bridge at Impeda, and railroad bridges over the Var River and
at Albenga; light bombers pound the Zagarolo supply dump; fighter-bombers and
fighters (some operating with British aircraft) hit communications (mainly
railroad bridges), vehicles, supply dumps at various places, including
Arezzo, the island of Elba, Orvieto, NE of Grosseto, NW of Bracciano, Civita
Castellana, Montalto di Castro, between Piombino and Viterbo, in the
Castiglioncello area, NW of Montepescali and S of Cecina.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-25s, flying out of Abemama
Island, bomb Maloelap Atoll, rearm at Majuro Atoll, and hit Jaluit Atoll on
the return trip.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): HQ 5th Bombardment Group
(Heavy) is ordered to move from Guadalcanal Island and New Georgia Island to
Los Negros Island where it will form the nucleus of the Thirteenth Air Task
Force.
  On New Britain Island, 23 B-25s and 11 P-39s pound the W section of Rabaul,
7 other B-25s cause considerable damage in the Ratawul supply area; 23
fighter-bombers blast the concrete airstrip at Vunakanau. On Bougainville
Island 12 fighter-bombers bomb and strafe the Numa Numa trail and pound the
harbor area.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 180+ B-24s,
B-25s, and A-20s, supported by 60+ P-38s, bomb AA positions, airfields,
supply areas and shipping construction; B-24s, B-25s, A-20s, and P-39s bomb
and strafe various targets at Wewak, Madang, along Hansa Bay and on Karkar
Island; other P-39s fly a barge sweep from Alexishafen up the coast as far as
the mouth of the Sepik River. 2 B-25s bomb Penfoei on Timor Island.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Apr 1994 07:13:16 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>
Subject: Re: obsolete equipment

On Mon, 11 Apr 1994, Don Bowden wrote:
>         Just a little devils advocate type comments. Would the US have really

And very good comments they were. When it comes to Japanese navy fighter
operations, though, Don omits the factor that made the navy pilots (and
to a lesser extent the army pilots) such deadly opponents: most of them
were combat veterans. In China, they'd strafed, bombed, and engaged
Chinese and Russian pilots in close combat.

There is no substitute for experience, as the Japanese navy discovered
after it lost many of these pilots at Midway and had to replace them with
boys with a few hours and no combat behind them.

The Japanese army had been through the same seasoning, of course, but
except for two fighter groups their pilots were flying a distinctly
inferior aircraft (the fixed-gear Nakajima Ki-27 "Nate") at the outbreak
of war.

Cheers - Dan     <dan.ford@unh.edu>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Apr 1994 07:03:06 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Weap: Triumph of the Will

Hello, David!

Just a quick response to your questions.

> What, you all query, does the _Triumph of the Will_ have to do with
> weapons? Well, when studying the 1934 Nazi propaganda film, I had always
> read/heard that the reason that all of the "soldiers" were carrying
> shovels was that Germany had not yet had time to re-arm themselves. This
> always had seemed like a reasonable explanation, and I didn't question
> it. Recently, however, I read a different version of the story. I'm
> reading the book _Soldat_ which is a biography of Siegfried Knappe, a
> German soldier from 1936-49. At the half-way mark, it's quite good, and I
> recommend it as an interesting, quick, read. Anyway, I digress. In this
> book, Knappe claims to have been at the Nuremberg rally in 1934 when the
> _Triumph of the Will_ was filmed, representing the Labour Service who,
> naturally, had parade spades rather than rifles (as they were not
> fighting units). Does anyone know the truth to this? Was Germany so short
> of weapons, that they "armed" their people with spades for parade
> purposes, or were the vast majority of people at the 1934 Nuremberg rally
> from the Labour Service?

    Perhaps, but the real reason, I think, behind the use of spades
and shovels was for propaganda purposes to begin with. It was far
more palatable to the public and foreign viewers of that film to see
uniformed people marching with spades and shovels than with rifles
and machine guns. The dual nature of such a spectacle, i.e. an army
marching off to conquer the fields to produce food, build waterways,
rebuild infrastructure would be the public perception of such
"troops", whereas the real underlying idea was to use this perception
to hide the fact that such "training" was in reality used to foster
discipline and engender the spirit associated with military service.
When the time came to do away with this charade, it was a simple task
to convert such "troops" to actual military employment.


    I guess a secondary question would be: were
> people required to do Labour Service instead of military service
> _because_ there were not enough weapons to go around at the time? Anyway,

    Not really. At the time, 1934, Hitler hadn't been in power for
more than a year, and Germany was still tied to the provisions of the
Versailles Treaty which, among other things, limited Germany's
military services. Again, the RAD or Workers' Service was really one
organization used by the Nazis to circumvent this Treaty provision.
It allowed the Germans, under the pretext of a civilian organization,
divorced from military affiliation, to train large numbers of men for
military service. There was nothing in the Versailles Treaty to
prevent this.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry


Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Apr 1994 07:11:32 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: SPECULATION: US offensive to Moskva after 5.45?

Hello, Gudmundur!



>         Didnt Patton wish to continue his 3rd army offensive well beyond
> the Reich?

    Yes.

I heard somewhere that he wished to take on the Russians
> after the Reich would have been beaten. Is this true and if so did other
> Western_allied commanders share that view?

    No. Ike, for one was forced to relieve Patton of his command with
the controversy this aroused.

>         I see the Alliance of UK, USA, Canada and French on the one side
> and the USSR on the other side as nothing more than the west sharing
> enemy with the USSR.
>
>         Just an idea, nothing to deep though :) I wonder how US, UK, CAN
> attack on the USSR would have fared. Guess the public in these countries
> would not have accepted that :)

    It wouldn't have been easy to say the least. Russia possessed a
well-armed and huge military machine and their factories were still
cranking out military equipment. Access or bombing of those factories
would have been accessible only by the use of B-29's, and they were
still tied down in a war in the Far East.

    Also,  a ground war at that time would have been difficult to
maintain because of the devastation of the Russian interior due to
the rigors of the war with Hitler. We would have been faced with the
same problems Hitler had to confront and there was no indication that
the Russian populace would have welcomed us as liberators, in light
of the treatment they received from the Germans.

    And, as you correctly point out, the American public, and the
publics of the other Allied nations, were worn out from the war and
all that was wanted at that time was peace and to get the boys home.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Apr 1994 07:25:03 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: A-4B and A-5

Hello, Gudmundur and all others interested in this topic!

    Here goes with some more info.

                     A-4B

This was very similar to the A-4 but with the addition of wings
introduced to increase the range to 280 miles by the ability to
glide. A number of wing and tail designs were wind-tunnel tested and
two rockets were actually built and fired at Peenemuende but both
trials failed-one due to a control fault and one to a structural
failure-and the war ended before the project could be followed up. It
was considered likely that the A-4B would go into production to
supersede the A-4 in due course.



                    A-5

Test vehicle for the A-4 control systems. About 16 ft long and 2 ft
in diameter, it was powered by a Walther hydrogen peroxide rocket
motor. Several were used in trials, both ground launched and launched
from aircraft. A certain amount of confusion exists over this rocket
since there were a number of experimental sub-models with change in
fin design, which were given the appellation V-1, V-2, V-3, etc. to V-
16. In this case the "V" stands for "Versuchs" i.e. "experiment".


    More tomorrow.

    All the best, and will respond to the questions posed on A-4.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Apr 1994 16:20:00 CET
From:    Peter de Lange <MIMHCB@RULMVS.LEIDENUNIV.NL>
Subject: re : weap : early jets

Last week I wrote about the Mitsubishi J8M1 and Nakajima J8N1 Kikka.
Emmanuel had problems with J8N1 numbering, I think he is right.

In Air Pictorial I found an article "Japanese Navy Aircraft 1940-1945"
by Richard M.Bueschel.

He gives some interesting and conflicting data about these two planes,
a different type number for the Nakajima plane, same plane as Kikka?
a first flight date for the Mitsubishi plane  and
a glider version of the J8M1, built by Maeda

Nakajima MXN1 Kitsuka
Partially based on the Me-262 through German assistance in drawings
and data, works on the Nakajima MXN1 Kitsuka (Orange Blossom) Special
Attack Plane began in the summer of 1944 following Japanese
agreement to safeguard Messerschmitt patent and priority rights.
Conceived as a Kamikaze attack type, the Kitsuka was armed with a
1.100-ib bomb that could be released by the pilot with the planned
purpose of making hits with bomb and plane.
Power was two 1.045-ib thrust NE-20 turbojets.
Production was assigned to Nakajima, Kyushu, Sasebo and Yokosuka.
Fighter as well as two-seat trainer and recco versions were also
projected.

Mitsubishi J8M1 Shusui
based on the Me-163b, the advanced Mitsubishi J8M1 Shusei (Swinging
Sword) Special Fighter was powered by a Yokosuka Toku Ro.2 (Kr-10)
rocket engine of 3.300-ib. thrust. Armament was two 17-shi 30-mm
canon in the wing roots. Production was assigned to Mitsubishi, Fuji
and Nisson before completion of the prototypes in order to have service
delivery of this last-ditch intercepter fighter as soon as possible.
The first test flight was conducted on 7th July 1945 at Yokosuka.
Engine failure led to a crash landing and the pilot was killed.
The fuel system was redesigned. The war ended before the modified sixth
and seventh prototypes were completed. On the morning of Japan's
surrender the decision was made to remove one cannon and replace the
weight with fuel, the new model to be known as the J8M2 Shusui-Kai.

Maeda MXY7 Akigusa Trainer, model 11
A light wood-and-fabric tailless glider identical in outline to
the Shusui rocket fighter, the Maeda MXY7 Akigusa (Autumn Grass)
Traner Glider was produced to build up a reserve of J8M1 pilots prior
to service delivery of the Mitsubishi fighter.
MXY7 prototype was completed in November 1944 and production was
sub-contracted to a number of small woodworking manufacturers.
Two were assigned to Mitsubishi for experimental work on the Shusai
project. Plans were made to modify the Akigusa by mounting a 100-hp
Hitachi GK4A Hatsukaze II in-line as a pusher to give the pilot
the "feel" of a tailless craft under power.
None were completed.

Can someone confirm these data?

Peter de Lange


------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Apr 1994 16:34:00 CET
From:    Peter de Lange <MIMHCB@RULMVS.LEIDENUNIV.NL>
Subject: re : RCAF

Knowing that I am far from compleet, I give here a list of "allied" and
"commonwealth" squadrons of the RAF

Cnt  : Po    Polen
       Ts    Chsecho-Slavakia
       Ne    Netherland
       Be    Belgium
       No    Norge
       Fr    France
       RCAF  Canada
       RAAF  Australie
       RNZAF New Zealand

Cnt    sqd date    code  aircraft & remarks
            operat.
Po     300 14-09-40  BH  Battle, Wellington, Lancaster
Po     301 14-09-40  GR  Battle, Wellington, Halifax, Liberator, Warwick
Po     302 24-08-40  WX  Hurricane, Spitfire
Po     303 31-08-40  RF  Hurricane, Spitfire, Mustang
Po     304 24-04-41  NZ  Battle, Wellington
Po     305 24-04-41  SM  Battle, Wellington, Mitchell, Mosquito
Po     306 08-11-40  UZ  Hurricane, Spitfire, Mustang
Po     307 10-09-40  EW  Defiant, Beaufighter, Mosquito
Po     308 01-12-40  ZF  Hurricane, Spitfire IX
Po     309 11-11-41  WC  Lysander, Mustang, Hurricane
Ts     310       40  NN  Hurricane, Spitfire
Ts     311       41      Wellington
Ts     312       41      Spitfire
Ts     313       41      Spitfire
Po     315 18-03-41  PK  Hurricane, Spitfire, Mustang
Po     316 25-03-41  SZ  Hurricane, Spitfire, Mustang
Po     317    03-41  JH  Hurricane, Spitfire
Po     318 20-03-43  LW  Hurricane, Spitfire
Ne     320    06-40  ND  Fokker T-8W, Hudson, Mitchell
Ne     321               Anson, Catalina, Liberator
Ne     322           3W  Spitfire
No     330               Northrop, Catalina, Sunderland
No     331               Hurricane, Spitfire
No     332       42      Spitfire
Fr     340       41  GW  Spitfire    ex GC-2 Ile de France sqd
Fr     341       43  NL  Spitfire    ex GC-1 Alsace sqd
Fr     342       43  OA  Boston      ex GB-1 Lorraine sqd
Fr     345       44  2Y  Spitfire            Berry sqd
Fr     346       44  H7  Halifax             Guyenne sqd
Fr     347       44  L8  Halifax             Tunesie sqd
Be     349       42      Spitfire
Be     350       42      Spitfire
RCAF   401               Spitfire
RCAF   402               Spitfire
RCAF   403               Spitfire
RCAF   405               Halifax, Lancaster
RCAF   408               Hampden, Lancaster, Halifax
RCAF   410               Mosquito
RCAF   411               Spitfire
RCAF   412               Spitfire
RCAF   418               Boston
RCAF   419           VR  Lancaster
RCAF   420           PT  Hampden, Lancaster
RCAF   421               Spitfire
RCAF   422               Catalina, Sunderland
RCAF   423               Sunderland
RCAF   424           QB  Lancaster
RCAF   425           KW  Wellington, Halifax
RCAF   426           OW  Wellington, Lancaster
RCAF   438               Typhoon
RCAF   439               Typhoon
RCAF   440               Typhoon
RCAF   441               Spitfire
RCAF   442               Spitfire, Mustang
RCAF   443               Spitfire
RAAF   450               Kittyhawk
RAAF   453               Buffalo
RAAF   460           UV  Lancaster
RAAF   461               Sunderland
RAAF   462           Z5  Halifax
RAAF   463           JO  Lancaster
RAAF   466           HD  Wellington, Halifax
RAAF   467           PO  Lancaster
RNZAF  485               Spitfire
RNZAF  488       41  ME  Wirraway, Buffalo, Hurricane, Beaufighter, Mosquito
Po     663 08-09-44      Auster

Who has more information ?
PS There were also British squadrons.
Peter de Lange

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Apr 1994 10:35:01 -0500
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: Roger Waters When the Tigers Broke Free

> Atilla and Scott,
> I ftp'ed that song from cs.uwp.edu ftp site and thought that I would
> mail it to the WWII list. That's all. I don't know if Waters or any
> other Pink Floyd member lost someone during war but according to this song
> (and not only this one) it could be true.
> Irek.

Hi Guys,

The movie "The Wall" staring Pink Floyd alluded to this very
strongly.  The band was heavily influenced by WWII in its members
developmental years.  Same thing for Jethro Tull.  The Tull album "War
Child" has a song (I think the title track) that is about the blitz of
London.  While the Al Stewart music is based on research I think Pink
Floyd and Jethro Tull were there.

Maybe that's why they are my two favorite rock bands.....  Al Stewart
is pretty good too!

Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Apr 1994 11:31:26 -0500
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Weap: Triumph of the Will

>
>      Did the Treaty of Versailles not limit Germany's production of
>      offensive weapons? Would it not be prudent for the Germans to hide the
>      fact that they are breaking the treaty by NOT bringing these
>      "violation weapons" into the open for as long as possible?
>
>      Please be kind with your disagreements...
>
>      Scott Jones
>      Sjones@LOGICON.COM

Hi Scott,

Congratulations! You and Terry Moore are the winners of the contest.
You were the first to mention the key to the mystery (the Versailles
Treaty) but Terry hit it dead on the money.

The film "Triumph des Willens" was designed to be shown throughout
Germany to show the German people that they have overcome the
difficulties of the post war era and are once again a strong and
vigorous nation (due to the Nazis, of course).  During the first
years of Hitler's assumption of power he moved quickly to rearm
Germany but at the same time he was reluctant to publicly refute the
VT until he was ready to back it up.  Germany was still vulnerable in
1934 and could have been occupied by France and Britain under
specifications of the VT by virtue of German violations.

Germany was permitted a standing army of not more than 100,000 men.
The SA at that time numbered into the millions.  The Labor Corps (the
guys with the shovels) was an organization called the RAD or Reichs
Arbeits Dienst and their function was to perform public works.  It
was similar to the Works Projects Administration in Roosevelts
attempts to pull the US out of the Depression.  The Civilian
Conservation Corps even wore surplus WWI US uniforms so that is
probably a closer example of the US version of the RAD.

The RAD built the Autobahn network in Germany but what good was that
when so few Germans owned cars?  Well, it sure came in handy when it
came time to transport tanks and artillery from one front to the
next.  Gosh, maybe that's why they poured the concrete so thick!
Hmmm.......

When the Pzkfw I was first introduced it had no turret and was
unveiled as a tractor.  The NSKK was the organization that drove
these tractors.  The NSKK (National Socialist Kraftfahr Korps) was a
subset of the SA that dealt with motorized vehicles and provided the
training ground for a future generation of tank drivers.  When these
Pzkfw I tractors went to Spain in 1936 they went with a turret and
two 7.92mm machine guns in each vehicle.

The NSFK (National Socialist Flieger Korps) who flew gliders in the
early 1930s provided the early training for many future fighter
pilots.  Lufthansa trained their share of transport and bomber pilots
as well.  U-boat crews were trained under the cover of providing
these vessels for foreign customers and legions of men carried
shovels in parades with the same precision of trained armies.  Of
course these were not military men, clearly they are civilians but by
the time Hitler was prepared to throw off the yoke of the VT once and
for all these civilians changed from RAD uniforms to Army uniforms
and became instant soldiers - well trained soldiers, tank drivers,
pilots and submarine crews.

It has been argued that the VT helped Germany in that when Germany
rearmed they had no obsolete weapons to issue their troops.  The new
air cooled multipurpose MG-34 machine-gun that replaced the heavy 08
Maxim and Spandaus of the First World War where better than anything
the world had seen.  Same for the new airplanes with their highspeed
and metallic air frames.  U-boats right off the assembly line
initially faced WWI veteran ships of the British and French navies.
Allied powers facing a modern army with vintage weaponry was at a
distinct disadvantage.

Anyway, the answer to the shovel question is that in 1934 Hitler
wanted the world to think that he was in compliance with the VT while
at the same time showing the German people that they had overcome
their First War defeat.  Rifles were not that rare.  Hitler was still
treading lightly among the world community in 1934.  By 1938 we would
see the *real* Hitler begin to emerge.

Good question.  Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Apr 1994 13:05:57 -0400
From:    David Rising <drising@IO.ORG>
Subject: Re: "German soldier from 1936-49" ??

On Mon, 11 Apr 1994 mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU wrote:

> Was this a typo, or was there some kind of German Army still in
>   existence from 1945-49?
>
> Lou Coatney, WIU
>
I haven't finished the book yet Lou, but that's the subtitle. I assume
that since Knappe was in Soviet captivity after the war, he was still
considered a "soldier" until he resumed civilian life. If this assumption
is proved wrong upon completion of the book, I'll let you know.
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Apr 1994 12:07:43 -0500
From:    "Robert K. Brunner" <rkbg2554@UXA.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: "German soldier from 1936-49" ??

   Date:         Mon, 11 Apr 1994 16:44:07 -0500
   From: mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU

   Was this a typo, or was there some kind of German Army still in
     existence from 1945-49?

   Lou Coatney, WIU

---- _Soldat_ spoiler ---
 (if you are reading the book, this gives away the end)






The author of Soldat was a POW in the USSR until '49, so I guess he
still considered himself a member of the Wehrmacht.  My mom got me a
signed copy of the book last Christmas.  I recommend it.  The
author had an incredible luck in surviving the campaigns he was
involved in.

I was under the impression (from the book) that the Labor Service was
devised to give teen-aged boys military basic training, without
putting them in the army, which would have violated the Versailles
Treaty.

Robert Brunner

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Apr 1994 12:17:44 CST
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re[2]: Roger Waters When the Tigers Broke Free

Let's not forget "California Uber Alles" by the Dead Kennedys, and
"Blitzkreig Bop" by the Ramones.  Just thought I'd chime in those WWII
related songs.  TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Apr 1994 11:41:00 -0400
From:    DAVID WILMA 415-744-2485 <WILMA.DAVID@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV>
Subject: Re: obsolete equipment

          In reply to Don Bowden's post, the U.S. definitely would not have
          been better off with more Devastators and P-36s and defective
          torpedoes, but was that the only possibility.  Don't forget that
          after the FAll of France, the U.S. did engage in a major buildup
          which, in addition to ending the Great Depression, gave industry
          the headstart with aircraft plants and other developments.

          Even given an earlier buildup, I doubt that it would have swayed
          the Japanese away from expansion.  The decision to attach the
          colonial powers was brough on by economic pressures and internal
          Japanese politics.  I also doubt that it would have changed the
          U.S. Navy's surface doctrines and capabilities.

          I think that the way the U.S. entered the war was about the best
          way possible.  The Pearl Harbor attack was a wonderful way to
          galvanize the country.  I am confident that FDR did not in any
          way "set up" Hawaii and the PI like some historians would allege,
          but he could not have planned it better.

          As it was, what little obsolete equipment there was got confirmed
          as obsolete.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Apr 1994 13:41:54 -0400
From:    David Rising <drising@IO.ORG>
Subject: Re: SPECULATION: US offensive to Moskva after 5.45?

A Western allied offensive wouldn't have been as hard as Terry suggested
IMO. Remember, at this time we had the bomb and the Soviets didn't. I
think the real reason that we didn't pursue an anti-Soviet campaign is
because the governments of the West had just spent the last 5 years
convincing their populations that the Soviets were out friends. The
Western public were tired of war, and it would have been hard to convince
them to attack a former ally.
As I just typed the above, another thought came to me. At the end of the
war in Europe, the Americans were not yet sure how well the bomb would
work and desperately wanted Soviet help in fighting the Japanese. Think
of this post as reverse chronology. :-)
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Apr 1994 13:45:24 +0500
From:    douglas g prosser <admindgp@SN571.UTICA.GE.COM>
Subject: info? Prinz von Blucher battleship

Hi,

I've just finished the first book of a trilogy by Burke Wilkinson
about Geoffrey Mildmay where he sinks the above ship (or maybe he
doesn't but that'd give the book away). My questions are:

Did this ship actually exist and get sabotaged in port?

Did the allies ever use one man subs for sabotage?


thanx

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Doug Prosser                                    Email: admindgp@utica.ge.com
Martin Marietta                                 Phone:        (315) 793-7383
French Road MD 061                              Dial Comm:        8*252-7383
Utica NY 13502                                  Fax:          (315) 793-5778
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It's about secrets." - David Lynch.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Apr 1994 13:39:52 EDT
From:    Jim Barr <ER676C@GWUVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Roger Waters When the Tigers Broke Free

Come now Tim;  if we're going to talk about Dead Kennedys songs, we shouldn't
forget "Nazi Punks F*** Off".  Truly a touching song...

                                                      Jim Barr
                                                      er676c@gwuvm.gwu.edu
                                                      er676c@gwuvm.bitnet
                                                      ec566x@unix1.circ.gwu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Apr 1994 13:57:48 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <sep@TVSS2.COMMNET.EDU>
Subject: Re: Roger Waters When the Tigers Broke Free

Which events influenced Dire Straits? Sounds almost likt the Faulklands.

                                                        Steve

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Apr 1994 14:07:23 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: "German soldier from 1936-49" ??

Hello, Lou and others!

Soldate by Knappe is an excellent work and highly recommended. He was
in captivity until 1949 and the work chronicles his life up to the
point where he is rejoined with his family.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Apr 1994 14:25:54 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: SPECULATION: No WWII for USA without Pearl Harbor?

Hello, Jim!

Thanks for the response and after reading it, I would agree that the
Japanese were faced with some tough choices that eventually would
have led them into conflict with the US. However, I think that it
would have taken them longer to make the decision to go to war with
the US, as they well knew, that had the US had its full undivided
attention with the absence of a Hitler loose in Europe, it would have
faced a most formidable enemy in much less time that would have and
could have easily taken them on much sooner and more effectively. The
Japanese would have been forced to reconsider much before they
attacked the US. IMHO, Their timetable, their overall strategic
planning, etc, would have forced them to give much more careful
consideration of those components, than happened with our attention
being divided at that time.


    Thanks again, and if you have any further comment regarding the
above, please do.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Apr 1994 14:52:16 -0500
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: "German soldier from 1936-49" ??

>
> I was under the impression (from the book) that the Labor Service was
> devised to give teen-aged boys military basic training, without
> putting them in the army, which would have violated the Versailles
> Treaty.
>
> Robert Brunner

Hi Robert,

That was the role of the Hitler Jugend and it had been around since
the 1930s (I want to say 1932 but I'll have to look it up to be sure)
and a boy could become a member of that organization from age 12 to
age 18 whereupon he would then go into the Wehrmacht or to university.

If you study photos of RAD men you see that they are mostly of
military age or older.  The RAD was a jobs organization rather than a
youth group.  Its stated goal was to provide work for German men and
organize them such that they could accomplish useful projects for
Germany.  The unstated purpose was to prepare large numbers of men for
military service.

After 1936 the RAD lost membership in favor of the Army and continued
to serve in a minor role from that point on.  Some members of the RAD
actually went into combat particularly in the last days against the
Russians in Berlin.  I have a press release photograph of an RAD man
having been awarded the Knights Cross and another of a DAF man
wearing the same award.   The DAF was the Deutsche Arbeits Front and
were mainly people involved as industrial workers in factories.

Regards, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Apr 1994 13:15:39 +0000
From:    Julian E Gomez <jeg@APPLE.COM>
Subject: Re: Roger Waters When the Tigers Broke Free

>Which events influenced Dire Straits? Sounds almost likt the Faulklands.

Dire Straits was formed in the late '70s, many years before the Falklands war.



"I was a precocious child and obviously destined to be a scientist."

        Dr. Julian "a tribble took it" Gomez
        Apple Computer, Inc.  408/862-1289 or 996-1010
        jeg@apple.com  julian.g@applelink.apple.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Apr 1994 19:33:15 MET-1
From:    Bognar Attila <MOTEL@BTKSTUD.JPTE.HU>
Subject: Re: Roger Waters When the Tigers Broke Free

If you are talking about "Brothers in Arms" then as I recall it was
something to do with Nelson Mandela.
I'm not quite sure though...

----------------------------

> Which events influenced Dire Straits? Sounds almost likt the Faulklands.
>
>                                                         Steve
>

All the best,

Attila  motel@btkstud.jpte.hu

"We generally come to conclusions when we grow tired of thinking."

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Apr 1994 14:35:01 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: obsolete equipment

Could it be that one reluctance of the green US army in North Africa to
accept British military advice (months after British victory at El Alamein)
was the American debacle at Kasserine Pass?
##E

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Apr 1994 14:56:41 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Weap: Triumph of the Will

As you'll know, Terry, 1934 was "lift-off time" for Adolph.
Ten days after assuming power in 1933, he was making speeches to the
tame generalks and the German cabinet which made his warlike ("lebensraum")
intentions clear. Initially, rearmament was disguised, same as with the so-called "mefo Bills" and Krupp's euphemistic "agricultural tractor progamme" which
manufactured tanks from July 1933.
By 1934, explosives, ships, and aircraft were in production by Germany, all
against provisions of the Versailles Treaty, but strongly aproved by the
army.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Apr 1994 15:06:45 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: A-4B and A-5

.... Then there was the A-9.
A long-distance rocket designed to bomb New York City.
The A-9 rockets, with their A-10 boosters, was intended to be fired across
the Atlantic. The idea was to shoot the warhead device in a long shallow
flight-path after a passage at great height. At a set moment, the boosters
would drop away, and the winged bomb-comonent would fall on NYC at a speed
of about 8,000 m.p.h.
It was planned that the A-9 could fly the Atlantic in less than an hour, and
some versions even provided for a human "pilot" to go along.
Just as well, that this ultimate Peenemunde goodie was not completed by
war's end. Otherwise, American perception of the German V-weapons might
be a trifle less academic today...

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Apr 1994 20:14:34 MET-1
From:    Bognar Attila <MOTEL@BTKSTUD.JPTE.HU>
Subject: Re: Roger Waters: When the Tigers Broke Free

Hi Jesse,

> Maybe it is more succinctly :
>
> "We usually employ sweeping generalizations when we grow tired of thinking."
>
> BTW Attila, is that your name or a 'moniker'... alias ... pseudonym... all the
> above?   ;-)

It has been my name for the last thirty years and I feel quite
comfortable with it. Have you never heard of anybody having this name?



All the best,

Attila  motel@btkstud.jpte.hu

"We generally come to conclusions when we grow tired of thinking."

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Apr 1994 15:38:16 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: re : RCAF

Yes, you'd find at least two or three British squadrons in the RAF.
:-)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Apr 1994 08:48:55 +1000
From:    Derek Monz <gldrm@JCU.EDU.AU>
Subject: INFO Zerstorer Groups.

I would like to know if anyone has anyinformation they are willing to
share on the oprations of zerstorer ( destroyer) groups ( bf110's and Me
410's) in the defence of the Reich. Of particualr interest are colour
schemes/markings.

Secondly, does any list member have or know of a book or series of books
called "The Luftwaffe war diaries"?. I would realy like to get a
copy of it/them.

thanks in advance

Derek.Monz@jcu.edu.au Msc (Geology) 1994.
disclaimer: - I didn't do it!.

" In the beginning Boeing created the B-17 and they were pleased. It came to
pass that the United States Army Air Corps saw what Boeing had wrought and
they too were pleased, and they praised the big bird that Boeing had
brought forth. And it also came to pass that the Luftwaffe saw the B-17
and they were sorely afraid exclaiming loudly "oh woe is me, oh woe is
me"".
                            ((-------))
                                \o/
                                 |
                               _/ \_

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Apr 1994 20:51:33 -0500
From:    Filiberto Farini <afarini@EMBSMOMUIO.INT.EC>
Subject: New here, please reply?

What can you talk here, can you make questions?????
Like where are ftp computers that have WWII texts, like The Normandy (6 june
1944)

Also was the Normandy battle impossible to be won the Germans?
Was the German force no well organizated in France?
Allied wins beacause German Luftwaffe failed in the defensive (no one) of
the 6 june 1944?


thanks..
 =========================
 Filiberto Farini
 afarini@embsmomuio.int.ec
 Quito - Ecuador
 ==========================

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Apr 1994 20:02:42 MET-1
From:    Bognar Attila <MOTEL@BTKSTUD.JPTE.HU>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Weap: Triumph of the Will

Hi Scott and Bill,

Maybe another few words to this.

> >
> >      Did the Treaty of Versailles not limit Germany's production of
> >      offensive weapons? Would it not be prudent for the Germans to hide the
> >      fact that they are breaking the treaty by NOT bringing these
> >      "violation weapons" into the open for as long as possible?

Yes, it did.

  Germany was still vulnerable in
> 1934 and could have been occupied by France and Britain under
> specifications of the VT by virtue of German violations.


Three things:

1., France did occupy Germany (at least parts), the Ruhr in 1923. The
objective was obviously different, but they could not achive it
(forcing the repercussions that Germany did not pay) and had to draw
their troops back. It was a shock for France, a `victory' for the
Germans and a source of tensions for Britain. Britain did not support
France on this step, for they wanted Germany to recover as fast as
she can. Ergo: it is highly debatable whether or not France would
have endeavoured another occupation (public opinion might have been
against that) and it seems almost obvious that Britain would not have
tried at all.

2., The French army was not capable of performing such an action in
the mid-30's. Gamelin himself admitted this when Hitler invaded
Czechoslovakia. They had a treaty saying France would defend
Czechoslovakia if she was attacked. They did not carry this out -
partly - for the above mentioned reason.

3., The `appeasers' thought - and it was widely shared - that it's a
natural right of every country to see to her capacity of defence.
They did not see anything wrong in Hitler's rearmament, for he always
persuaded them that he was only setting up a relatively small army
and that he only wanted to make Germany strong enough to defend
herself.

As for the rest I absolutely agree with what Bill said.

Thanks,

 All the best,

Attila  motel@btkstud.jpte.hu

"We generally come to conclusions when we grow tired of thinking."

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 11 Apr 1994 to 12 Apr 1994
*************************************************

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There are 28 messages totalling 930 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Re[2]: Weap: Triumph of the Will
  2. Prinz von Blucher battleship
  3. TRIVIA: Treaty of Versailles and Wine (11)
  4. INF: USAAF 13 APR 44
  5. "German soldier from 1936-49" ?? (2)
  6. New here, please reply? (3)
  7. INFO Zerstorer Groups.
  8. WEAP - Midget Subs
  9. Help National Geographic #1
 10. Help National Geographic #2
 11. A-6 - A-8
 12. NOST: Mitchell Hunters...
 13. MISC RUSFRONT.ZIP
 14. WEAP: Early Jets
 15. call for papers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Apr 1994 10:22:37 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Weap: Triumph of the Will

>
>      This is probably an "Off the wall" comment regarding the use of Spades
>      at the Nuremberg Rally but here goes anyway...

If you're talking about people marching with shovels, they were more than
likely the Reich Arbeits Dienst (RAD), the National Labor Service.  They
were a CCC type organization for young men.  They were SUPPOSED to carry
shovels.

As an aside, Michael Wittmann, the Tiger ace, was a member of the RAD before
joining the SS.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Apr 1994 09:59:41 +0200
From:    Bengt Nilsson <BenNi@BIBL.LIU.SE>
Subject: Re: Prinz von Blucher battleship

>
>I've just finished the first book of a trilogy by Burke Wilkinson
>about Geoffrey Mildmay where he sinks the above ship (or maybe he
>doesn't but that'd give the book away). My questions are:
>
>Did this ship actually exist and get sabotaged in port?
>
>Did the allies ever use one man subs for sabotage?

As far as I know the German Navy had two major warships called Bluecher.
The first one, an armored cruiser, was sunk in the Dogger Bank action in
 1915.

The second one, a heavy cruiser, was sunk by the Norwegians on 9 April 1940
just outside Oslo. It's still there and there have been several reports
that it's leaking oil and that the Norwegians are considering raising
the wreck.

Bengt Nilsson
Link|ping University Library
Benni@bibl.liu.se

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Apr 1994 02:36:25 PST
From:    "Jones, Scott T." <sjones@CCLINK.LOGICON.COM>
Subject: TRIVIA: Treaty of Versailles and Wine

     This question is right up Terry's alley...

     I was in Germany in the Christmas Season of 1991. I enjoyed the snow,
     skiing, white lights, beer and "Gluhewein"(sp?) along with other
     wonderful German things but I could not find a bottle of "German
     Champagne" which a friend had requested. It turned out the  German
     EQUIVALENT of champagne cannot be called "champagne" due to a clause
     in the Treaty of Versailles which gave the French "sole use" of the
     term. The Germans had to use there own term which escapes me.
     Something along the line of "senf"(mustard??!)? Terry?

     Scott Jones
     Sjones@LOGICON.COM

     "This is full of omissions!"

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Apr 1994 11:27:01 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <smb@NETMGRS.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: TRIVIA: Treaty of Versailles and Wine

>            This question is right up Terry's alley...
>
>            I was in Germany in the Christmas Season of 1991. I enjoyed the snow,
>            skiing, white lights, beer and "Gluhewein"(sp?) along with other
>            wonderful German things but I could not find a bottle of "German
>            Champagne" which a friend had requested. It turned out the  German
>            EQUIVALENT of champagne cannot be called "champagne" due to a clause
>            in the Treaty of Versailles which gave the French "sole use" of the
>            term. The Germans had to use there own term which escapes me.
>            Something along the line of "senf"(mustard??!)? Terry?
>
>            Scott Jones
>            Sjones@LOGICON.COM
>
>            "This is full of omissions!"
It may also be something to do with the European Community in its
unbelievable and unworkable stupidity. There was a case recently
of a British wine company which also was forbidden to use the word
"Champagne" in the product name since Champagne refers to a specific
drink originating from a specific area (ie Champagne in France).

As another example of the banalities eminating from Brussels, they
have declared in the last few days,
that snails (as in the things that crawl up drainpipes and
eat lettuces etc) are Land Fish - thereby enabling the French to qualify
for Fisheries subsidies...

Please! Can't the UK join NAFTA? Save us from these jerks!

steve baldwin
smb@netmgrs.co.uk

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Apr 1994 07:02:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: INF: USAAF 13 APR 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
THURSDAY, 13 APRIL 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 3 B-24s fly armed reconnaissance and bombing
runs over the airfield on Matsuwa Island and installations on Onnekotan
Island.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 90+ P-40s, P-51s and A-36s and a
few B-25s carry out ground support missions near Kamaing and hit assorted
targets throughout the Mogaung Valley; 12 B-25s and 11 P-51s support ground
forces at Mawlu.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 28 fighters attempt to intercept but fail to
make contact with 13 Japanese airplanes which bomb Namyung, China.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (XX Bomber Command): Units arriving in India with
B-29s from the US: HQ 468th Bombardment Group (Very Heavy) and 792d, 793d,
794th and 795th Bombardment Squadrons (Very Heavy) at Kharagpur; 677th and
679th Bombardment Squadrons (Very Heavy), 444th Bombardment Group (Very
Heavy), at Charra; first mission for all units is 5 Jun 44.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 301: 626 bombers and 871
fighters are dispatched to hit targets in Germany; the bombers claim 22-13-34
Luftwaffe aircraft and the fighters claim 42-8-10 in the air and 35-0-21 on
the ground; 38 bombers and 9 fighters are lost; the bombers also drop 5.2
million leaflets on Germany; this mission is flown in conjunction with a raid
on Hungary by 500+ Fifteenth Air Force bombers and a Ninth Air Force B-26
raid in S The Netherlands; details are:
  1. 154 of 172 B-17s hit the industrial area at Schweinfurt and 1 hits a
target of opportunity; 14 B-17s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 127
damaged; casualties are 11 WIA and 139 MIA.
  2. 207 of 243 B-17s bomb aviation industry targets at Augsburg and 20 hit
the city of Augsburg; 18 B-17s are lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 178
damaged; casualties are 3 KIA, 16 WIA and 170 MIA.
  3. 211 B-24s are dispatched to hit Lechfeld Airfield; 93 hit the primary,
60 bomb aviation industry targets at Oberpfaffenhofen; 29 hit Lauffern and 2
hit targets of opportunity; 6 B-24s are lost and 45 damaged; casualties are 1
KIA, 3 WIA and 60 MIA.
  Escort is provided by 134 P-38s, 504 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s and
233 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-51s; 3 P-38s are lost and 1 damaged beyond
repair; 2 P-47s are lost; and 4 P-51s are lost and 1 damaged beyond repair;
a total of 11 fighters are damaged; casualties are 2 WIA and 8 MIA.
  Mission 302: 4 of 5 B-17s dispatched drop 800,000 leaflets on Amsterdam,
The Hague and Eindhoven, The Netherlands at 2235-2252 hours without loss.

  SUPREME HEADQUARTERS ALLIED EXPEDITIONARY FORCE (SHAEF): General of the
Army Dwight D Eisenhower formally assumes direction of air operations out of
the UK at 0000 hours (though he began informal exercise of this authority in
late Mar 44). This assumption of authority gives Eisenhower direction over
the Allied Expeditionary Air Force (AEAF), Royal Air Force (RAF) Bomber
Command, and US Strategic Air Forces in Europe (USSTAF) (the Fifteenth Air
Force retains some degree of independence) along with the US 1st Army Group,
British 21 Army Group, and Allied Naval Forces.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 121 B-26s and 37 A-20s attack
a marshalling yard, coastal batteries, airfields and V-weapon sites at Namur,
Chievres and Nieuport, Belgium; Le Havre, France; and along the N coast of
France in general; nearly 175 other aircraft abort missions mainly because of
weather; and 48 P-47s also dive-bomb V-weapon sites.
  Moves in England: HQ 358th Fighter Group and 365th, 366th and 367th Fighter
Squadrons from Raydon to High Halden with P-47s; HQ 362d Fighter Group from
Wormingford to Headcorn.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 535 heavy bombers (largest
bomber mission to date) bomb targets in Hungary; the B-17s bomb an aircraft
plant and depot at Gyor; the B-24s bomb an aircraft factory at Budapest and
air depots at Budapest, Tokol and Vecses; fighter opposition and AA account
for 14 US bombers and 1 fighter shot down; 40 enemy fighters are claimed shot
down and 120+ aircraft destroyed on the ground.
  779th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 464th Bombardment Group (Heavy),
arrives at Pantanella Airfield, Italy from the US with B-24s; first mission
is 30 Apr.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s attack Terni and
a bridge at Marsciano while B-26s bomb Ancona marshalling yard and a nearby
railroad bridge; fighter-bombers again strike mainly at communications, the
town of Itri, Cesano station, a factory at Fontana Liri, a railroad overpass
at Fara in Sabina, Anguillara, and bridges, trucks and other targets at
points throughout C Italy.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-24s out of Eniwetok Atoll
strike Truk Atoll; B-25s from Abemama Island hit Ponape Island; B-25s from
Tarawa Atoll bomb Jaluit Atoll, rearm at Majuro Atoll and hit Maloelap Atoll.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 24
B-25s blast Talili Bay and Ratawul supply areas and the town of Rabaul; 40+
fighter-bombers strike the Malaguna area NW of Rabaul; 17 fighter-bombers hit
personnel and supply areas at Mosigetta, Mawareka, Meive, and Maririei.
During the early morning 23 B-24s bomb Truk Atoll.
  394th Bombardment Group (Heavy), 5th Bombardment Group (Heavy), moves from
Guadalcanal Island to Momote Airfield, Los Negros Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 80+ B-24s and
A-20s pound the airfields at Dagua and But on the N coast of New Guinea; 33
A-20s hit Aitape; P-39s, B-25s, and B-24s fly light strikes against a variety
of targets along Hansa Bay, on Wakde Island, at Uligan, and several other
points along the coast.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Apr 1994 07:08:47 -0400
From:    Kevin Kamphaus <usr5066a@TSO.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: "German soldier from 1936-49" ??

How did she get a signed copy? I read this about a year ago, I really enjoyed
it. Knappe was a very lucky man. I believe he lives in Xenia Ohio now. Which
is only 70-80 miles north of Cincinnati, where I live.


Its great to be back. The powers that be moved Tri State Online to another
system(It will be better for all involved) and we lost the Internet connection
for about 2 weeks. What happened to Larry? Is he ok?


Kevin Kamphaus

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Apr 1994 07:13:22 -0400
From:    Bob Smart <Bob.Smart@SMART.COM>
Subject: Re: "German soldier from 1936-49" ??

> >
> > I was under the impression (from the book) that the Labor Service was
> > devised to give teen-aged boys military basic training, without
> > putting them in the army, which would have violated the Versailles
> > Treaty.
> >
> > Robert Brunner
>
> Hi Robert,
>
> That was the role of the Hitler Jugend and it had been around since
> the 1930s (I want to say 1932 but I'll have to look it up to be sure)
> and a boy could become a member of that organization from age 12 to
> age 18 whereupon he would then go into the Wehrmacht or to university.
>
> If you study photos of RAD men you see that they are mostly of
> military age or older.  The RAD was a jobs organization rather than a
> youth group.  Its stated goal was to provide work for German men and
> organize them such that they could accomplish useful projects for
> Germany.  The unstated purpose was to prepare large numbers of men for
> military service.

Sounds like the New Deal's CCC here in the U.S.  Take young unemployed men put
them in a paramilitary organization and put them to work on Federal projects.
A lot of our National Parks and other recreation areas owe their improvements
to the CCC.

Bob Smart (bsmart@smart.com)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Apr 1994 06:52:54 CDT
From:    jesse carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: New here, please reply?

Dear Filiberto Farini ;

>From OUR human perspective, the Germans were mainly outgunned via our larger
war munitions production capibilities (Estados Unidos, id est)... even though
they DID have some superior items of war (later model tanks and their early
Messerschmitt262 jets, eg.).

The fact that Hitler would not listen to reasoning from the German High Command
but rather went the route of superstitious mysticism, aided in the German
defeat.

MORE knowledgable people on this net than I can say more, indeed much more to
give you an adequate answer, Filiberto.

However, from the HEAVENLY perspective, it was just not meant to be for
Germany to rule the world in its Nazi guise.  God had different plans.


Jesse Carnes
Baton Rouge
Louisiana
(Louisiana State University)
United States of America
NOTJIC@LSUVM.SNCC.LSU.EDU
-------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Apr 1994 07:02:59 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: INFO Zerstorer Groups.

Hello, Derek!

> Secondly, does any list member have or know of a book or series of books
> called "The Luftwaffe war diaries"?. I would realy like to get a
> copy of it/them.

    The book you are inquiring about is "The Luftwaffe War Diaries"
by Cajus Bekker. It is an excellent book, and would highly recommend
it. I don't know if it is still in print, but it shouldn't be too
difficult to find a copy of it, as, if it is out of print, it hasn't
been long. I have a paperback copy of it that was published by
Ballantine Books and I think it came out in the 1980's.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Apr 1994 07:11:41 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: New here, please reply?

Hello, Filiberto!

To answer your questions and give you my two cents' worth on it.

> Also was the Normandy battle impossible to be won the Germans?

    I don't think it was impossible for the Germans to successfully
defend the Normandy beachhead. The whole question, to my mind, would
center on timing. If the Germans had had sufficient tank forces, gun
emplacements of sufficient calibres and numbers, adequate mine
fields, which Rommel was wanting to increase, and sufficient numbers
of troops, it would have been possible to defend Normandy
successfully. Rommel correctly foresaw the problem, and recognized
that the first 24 hours would be decisive. If he had had his way and
given the time, the Allies would have found it much rougher going to
gain a foothold at Normandy.


    However, even if the Allies had been repulsed, they would have
come again and, to my mind, given Allied air and naval supremacy at
the time, I don't think Germany could have held on, coupled with the
determination of the Western Allies to liberate France. Thus, in the
end, IMHO, the area would have been occupied.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Apr 1994 08:09:45 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: TRIVIA: Treaty of Versailles and Wine

On Wed, 13 Apr 1994 02:36:25 PST Jones, Scott T. said:
>     I was in Germany in the Christmas Season of 1991. I enjoyed the snow,
>     skiing, white lights, beer and "Gluhewein"(sp?) along with other
>     wonderful German things but I could not find a bottle of "German
>     Champagne" which a friend had requested. It turned out the  German
>     EQUIVALENT of champagne cannot be called "champagne" due to a clause
>     in the Treaty of Versailles which gave the French "sole use" of the
>     term. The Germans had to use there own term which escapes me.
>     Something along the line of "senf"(mustard??!)? Terry?

This sounds moderately apocryphal.  By French law, only wines made in the
province (now department, I guess) of Champagne by the champagne method can
be called champagne; every other sparkling wine can only call itself "made
by the champagne method".  I believe the French have managed to gain this
point with all other European countries, probably long before WWI.

ken koester
maint2@ers.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Apr 1994 07:17:53 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: TRIVIA: Treaty of Versailles and Wine

Hello, Scott!

Thanks for the query. The only thing that comes to mind about the
German idea of Champagne would be the word "Port". I am no wine
expert, but that is the only thing that comes to mind with the
Germans being forced to find another term for the French "Champagne".

Any other thoughts?

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Apr 1994 08:16:52 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: New here, please reply?

On Tue, 12 Apr 1994 20:51:33 -0500 Filiberto Farini said:
>What can you talk here, can you make questions?????

Questions are always welcome here, I find--and the answers are often
useful, too (-:

>Like where are ftp computers that have WWII texts, like The Normandy (6 june
>1944)

Can't help you there; don't have FTP, so I usually skip those notes.  Someone
else on the list is bound to know, though.

>Also was the Normandy battle impossible to be won the Germans?

In what sense?  Once the Allies won a lodgement, yes; the Germans would
never have had the strength to lock them up forever.  Could they have stopped
a lodgement?  Probably not, on the scale the Allies assaulted, but given more
preparation and giving Rommel a freer hand, they might well have forced one
or more beaches to have been evacuated & abandoned--as it was, Omaha was a
close-run thing.

>Was the German force no well organizated in France?

The command structure was confusing, but that didn't lose the battle (unless
you are counting Hitler as part of that (-: )

>Allied wins beacause German Luftwaffe failed in the defensive (no one) of
>the 6 june 1944?

No.  I don't think the use of air power alone could have reversed the results
of the battle on either side, though its absence was/would have been a big
disadvantage.

ken koester
maint2@ers.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Apr 1994 06:34:09 MDT
From:    Dan Strottman <dds@T2.LANL.GOV>
Subject: Re: TRIVIA: Treaty of Versailles and Wine

I do not know if the Versailles treaty bans the use of
the label Champagne for german sparkling wine - Sekt.
I do know a decision of the European court several
years ago effectively banned it.  E.g., when Spain
joined the E.C., they had to switch to calling their
champagne cave.  Their are intermittent threats
to California and other producers.  Similarly, cognac
is a protected name.
As the Japanese say, trade is war.

Dan

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Apr 1994 08:20:33 EST
From:    Collins Steven CPT <ks2213@USMA7.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: TRIVIA: Treaty of Versailles and Wine

>On Wed, 13 Apr 1994 02:36:25 PST Jones, Scott T. said:
>>     I was in Germany in the Christmas Season of 1991. I enjoyed the snow,
>>     skiing, white lights, beer and "Gluhewein"(sp?) along with other
>>     wonderful German things but I could not find a bottle of "German
>>     Champagne" which a friend had requested. It turned out the  German
>>     EQUIVALENT of champagne cannot be called "champagne" due to a clause
>>     in the Treaty of Versailles which gave the French "sole use" of the
>>     term. The Germans had to use there own term which escapes me.
>>     Something along the line of "senf"(mustard??!)? Terry?
>
>This sounds moderately apocryphal.  By French law, only wines made in the
>province (now department, I guess) of Champagne by the champagne method can
>be called champagne; every other sparkling wine can only call itself "made
>by the champagne method".  I believe the French have managed to gain this
>point with all other European countries, probably long before WWI.
>
>ken koester
>maint2@ers.bitnet
>

Ken Koester is correct on all accounts.  The word we are looking for here is
"der Sekt".  In general, Europeans are much more precise with the labeling and
manufacture of beers, wines, etc.

                                    CPT Steve Collins
                                    USMA
                                    ks2213@usma7.usma.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Apr 1994 09:40:31 LCL
From:    Tom Shirhall <tshirhal@IDA.ORG>
Subject: Re: TRIVIA: Treaty of Versailles and Wine

>Thanks for the query. The only thing that comes to mind about the
>German idea of Champagne would be the word "Port". I am no wine
>expert, but that is the only thing that comes to mind with the
>Germans being forced to find another term for the French "Champagne".

>Any other thoughts?

>Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College

Well, I know more about wine than I do about most things. Although I don't
drink German "seckt" as I think they call it, it is made by the same
"methode champagnoise" but uses the reisling grape rather than the
traditional chardonnay and the pinot noir.

Forgive my French and German.

Tom Shirhall
tshirhal@ida.org

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Apr 1994 17:51:28 CET
From:    "LTC Donnell, Doug" <4atf@PIRMASENS-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Re: TRIVIA: Treaty of Versailles and Wine

Hi all,
German "champagne" is called sekt.  It's very good, and very, very popular.
I'm no wine expert, so the main difference I see is an order of magnitude
in price.
                         Doug Donnell

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Apr 1994 09:33:51 -0700
From:    "Office TH325, Extension 3566" <RIEGSECKER@UPS.EDU>
Subject: WEAP - Midget Subs

Someone asked if the British used one-man subs.  Since I haven't seen an
answer, I thought I would post what I have.

This is taken from the book "Suicide Squads", by Richard O'neill.

The British had midget subs of the X-5 class.  Their best known
operation was in attacking the German battleship Tirpitz at anchor.
Tirpitz was not sunk but was heavily damaged.  The X-5 was a 4-man
sub (so was not really a 1-man sub).


The XE class was used in the Pacific.  It had a crew of 4 or 5.  They
were used to cut some communications cable and attacked the Japanese
carrier Takao which was badly damaged.

The Welman midget sub was a 1-man sub.  It was used by Norwegian
volunteers to attack a floating dock but all failed.

More if anyone is interested.

John Riegsecker
Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
University of Puget Sound

riegsecker@ups.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Apr 1994 12:55:45 -0400
From:    David Rising <drising@IO.ORG>
Subject: Re: TRIVIA: Treaty of Versailles and Wine

On Wed, 13 Apr 1994, Jones, Scott T. wrote:

>      This question is right up Terry's alley...

>      EQUIVALENT of champagne cannot be called "champagne" due to a clause
>      in the Treaty of Versailles which gave the French "sole use" of the
>      term. The Germans had to use there own term which escapes me.
>      Something along the line of "senf"(mustard??!)? Terry?
>
>      Scott Jones
>      Sjones@LOGICON.COM
 The word is "sekt" Scott, and it's generally quite good. I think,
however, the French monopoly on the word "champagne" dates back further
than that. In order to be truly "champagne", the sparkling wine has to
come from the Champagne region of France. Recently, however, I've seen
many others called "champagne" too. What is this world coming to?
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Apr 1994 12:50:12 EST
From:    Aldo <HUBERT@PHYSICAL.UNCG.EDU>
Subject: Re: TRIVIA: Treaty of Versailles and Wine

> Similarly, cognac is a protected name.

I recall hearing on NPR the other day that GAT or some other global
alliance has plans afoot to strengthen and enforce the limit on all
beverage appellations related to a region (e.g. Scotch, Kentucky
Bourbon etc...).  Technically, it is illegal in the US for a


sparkeling wine made here (in the US) to advertise as "champagne".



Aldo M. Hubert
                                           Aldo_Hubert@uncg.edu
University of North Carolina at Greensboro
800 Oakland Ave.
Greensboro NC 27412

Sic Friatur Crustum Dulce

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Apr 1994 13:56:38 -0400
From:    "Nat. Geo. Magazine Art" <magart@CAPCON.NET>
Subject: Help National Geographic #1

National Geographic Magazine wishes to communicate with people who
recall listening to President Roosevelt's radio address on Feb. 23,
1942,  and who also referred to a National Geographic Society map
of any kind during the course of that radio address. For an article
on the use of NGS maps during World War II. Via E-Mail, contact
David Wooddell, Senior Researcher at magart@capcon.net. Or via
telephone, (202) 857-7003.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Apr 1994 13:57:28 -0400
From:    "Nat. Geo. Magazine Art" <magart@CAPCON.NET>
Subject: Help National Geographic #2

National Geographic Magazine wishes to contact U.S. soldiers or
sailors who served in the field during World War II, and who recall
using or referring to National Geographic Society maps while
overseas. For a story on the use of NGS maps during World War II.
Via E-Mail, contact David Wooddell, Senior Researcher at
magart@capcon.net. Or via telephone, (202) 857-7003.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Apr 1994 15:21:39 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: TRIVIA: Treaty of Versailles and Wine

Hello, Captain Collins, Ken and others!

Thanks for jarring my memory. Of course, Sekt is the word instead of
the word "Port" which I used. I am no wine expert and, overseas,
certainly beer is the mainstay.

Thanks again.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Apr 1994 15:30:03 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: A-6 - A-8

Hello Gudmundur!

Here goes with some more info on the A-weapons.


                  A-6

A project only. This was to have been similar to the A-4 but to be
propelled by a bi-fuel motor using 90% sulfuric acid and 10% mixed
hydrocarbons as fuel.

                 A-7

A winged version of the A-5 used as a test vehicle on the A-9
project. It was air-launched from about 40,000 ft in order to study
the aerodynamic aspects of the glide component of the A-9's proposed
trajectory.

              A-8

A design study at about the same time as the A-6 with which it was
almost identical. The only difference lay in the fuel system which
was intended to be a liquid-oxygen/alcohol system as in the A-4.


           More tomorrow.

           All the best.

           Terry










Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Apr 1994 15:35:51 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: NOST: Mitchell Hunters...

Miss Mitchell departs at 0'dark:30 tomorrow (Thursday, 14 April) for
California (weather permitting).  She's flying out to attend the Annual
Doolittle Raiders Reunion -- the first year without Jimmy Doolittle.

According to the current schedule, she's supposed to arrive in Chino, CA
late afternoon 4/14 (perhaps as early as 16:00).  The flight route will
probably see stops in Goodland, KS and Albuquerque, NM on the way
there.  If she's forced to overnight somewhere, she's scheduled to
arrive in Chino no later than noon on Friday, 4/15.

She'll depart Chino at 15:00 on 4/15 and arrive Van Nuys at 16:00.
On Saturday 4/16, she'll depart Van Nuys at 14:00 and arrive Fresno at 15:30.
Sunday 4/17 sees a Fresno departure at 10:00 and arrival at Beale AFB 13:00.
Departure on 4/17 is from Beale at about 15:00. Probably overnight in Fresno.

Van Nuys appears to be a fairly major stop at this point, too... Lots of
activity there.

She'll be carrying PX, hats, T-shirts, stuff like that.  All the little
trinkets that keep her flying.  :-)

Last I heard, 8 B-25s and several (12?) Mustangs will be taking part in
this little gathering.  Should be quite a sight.

As noted earlier, I'm hoping people may have the opportunity to visit the
airplane and crew.  If you do, mention my name (I'm the Wing's Exec and
PIO).  I'm trying real hard to confuse the flight crews right now because
I won't be able to attend... My name being mentioned by a bunch of people
will start that ball rolling... :-)

I'd also like to see postings or email back from people who may otherwise
have the opportunity to witness this rare and probably last-time-ever
mass gathering of flying B-25s.

I'll be getting daily updates from the flight crew on the CA scheduling
and activities.  What they do is basically a reflection of what all the
other aircraft will be doing once they muster.  Is anyone interested in
these updates if they really do become available to me?  I realize this
only truly affects those in California and/or region...

I haven't heard who all is sending B-25s... Ron: Is NWM/Panchito sending
any people and/or aircraft?  (We _need_ to design an Internet Air Corp
patch... :-)

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Apr 1994 16:09:24 EST
From:    Aldo <HUBERT@PHYSICAL.UNCG.EDU>
Subject: MISC RUSFRONT.ZIP

Does anyone know if RUSFRONT.ZIP (the game Russian Front) is still
available on Byrd?   I looked around & did not see it & even checked
in the index.


Thanks in advance



Aldo M. Hubert
                                           Aldo_Hubert@uncg.edu
University of North Carolina at Greensboro
800 Oakland Ave.
Greensboro NC 27412

Sic Friatur Crustum Dulce

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Apr 1994 23:21:19 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVSDS.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Early Jets

Peter,

> Nakajima MXN1 Kitsuka

The 'Nakajima MXN-1 Kitsuka' is probably the 'Kikka'. The translation
usually given for 'Kikka' is also 'Orange Blossom'. The designation MXN
would indicate an experimental aircraft built by Nakajima; that is not
unlikely -- but only other MX aircraft I know are the MXY-5, -6, -7 and
-8.  It is also correct that the 'Kikka' was primarily an attack
aircraft, with fighter versions under development.

> Misubishi J8M1 Shusui

The disastrous first powered flight of the J8M was also its last. The
first unpowered flight had been made on 8 January 1945. The Toku Ro.2
engine was a copy of the German Walther HWK 509. The J8M1 itself was
not an exact copy of the Me 163B. It was lighter (max weight 3885kg,
against 4110kg for the Me 163B), and had a greater wing span (9.50m vs.
9.30m), reflecting the Japanese preference for a smaller wing loading.
It was also slower (900km/h instead of 960km/h).

The translation 'Swinging Sword' for Shusui, or Shusei, is common.
Sometimes you find it translated as 'Sword Stroke'. Designations of
Japanese aircraft could be unreliable (the most notable example is
"Demon" for "Shoki".)

> Maeda MXY7 Akigusa

The unpowered, wooden training version of the J8M was the Yokosuka MXY-8
Akikusa. The MXY-7 was the Ohka, also known as 'Baka', suicide aircraft;
model 11 was rocket-powered, model 22 jet-powered. The Y in the
designation indicates the Yokosuka naval arsenal; maybe Maeda was a
subcontractor?

> None were completed.

Of the MXY-8, or of the powered version?

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Apr 1994 15:04:42 -0700
From:    MJL1@NAUVAX.BITNET
Subject: call for papers

>
>                               CALL FOR PAPERS
>
>"EXPLORING THE CHALLENGES OF CONFLICT:  ISSUES AND ALTERNATIVES IN THE 20TH
>CENTURY WORLD"
>
>AN INTERDISCIPLINARY GRADUATE STUDENT/FACULTY SYMPOSIUM
>Northern Arizona University, Flagstaff, AZ
>November 4-5, 1994
>
>The theme of the fourth annual NAU Graduate Student Interdisciplinary
>Symposium (GSIS) is CONFLICT IN THE 20TH CENTURY. GSIS organizers invite
>graduate students and faculty to attend and to submit abstracts of papers you
>would like to present at this year's symposium.
>
>possible topic areas include, but are not limited to:
>
>Conflict and Community in Urban Areas
>Violence and Non-violence as Means of Social Change
>Power Relations:  Social, Economic, and/or Political
>Environmental Conflict
>"Legitimate" Violence:  Language, Institutions, and/or War
>Gender Conflict
>Technologies for Violent and Non-violent Uses
>Crime and Societies Response to Crime
>Racial and Ethnic Identities and Conflict
>International Conflict
>Conflict as Witnessed in Art, Music, or Literature
>
>THE DEADLINE FOR ABSTRACTS IS AUGUST 1, 1994
>
>Please send abstracts and requests for additional information on the symposium
>to:  Matt Lindstrom, Co-Chair, GSIS
>     Department of Political Science, NAU Box 15036
>     Flagstaff, AZ 86011
>     (602)  779-5695
>     Email:  MJL1@NAUVAX.UCC.NAU.ECU
>
>THANKS, MATT

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 12 Apr 1994 to 13 Apr 1994
*************************************************

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Status: O

There are 24 messages totalling 1252 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. INF: USAAF 14-17 APR 44
  2. TRIVIA: Treaty of Versailles and Wine
  3. INF: USN 19 APR 44
  4. TRV: champagne (3)
  5. Kasserine (7)
  6. A-9 and A-10
  7. NOST: Mitchell Hunters... (2)
  8. good riddance (2)
  9. Champagne vs. Sekt
 10. Ricky's Lament (2)
 11. USAAF (2)
 12. MISC RUSFRONT.ZIP

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Apr 1994 07:31:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: INF: USAAF 14-17 APR 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
14 - 17 APRIL 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  L-4, Piper Cub/Grasshopper
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

FRIDAY, 14 APRIL 1944

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 3 B-24s fly armed photo reconnaissance mission
during early the morning over Matsuwa, Onnekotan, and Paramushiru Islands,
Kurile Islands. Photographs taken are negative due to cloud cover.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 20 P-40s over the Mogaung Valley
attack a camp at Manywet; 20 P-51s and 3 B-25s support ground forces in the
Mawlu area.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 350th and 351st Fighter Squadrons,
353d Fighter Group, move from Metfield to Raydon, England with P-47s.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Moves in England: HQ 363d Fighter
Group and 380th, 381st and 382d Fighter Squadrons from Rivenhall to
Staplehurst with P-51s; 355th Fighter Squadron, 354th Fighter Group, from
Boxted to Lashenden with P-51s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s attack Viterbo
Airfield and Leghorn marshalling yard, B-26s strike at Poggibonsi, Certaldo,
Cecina and Magra, attacking mostly rail facilities and hit Arezzo bridge and
viaduct and Bucine viaducts; fighter-bombers also concentrate on rail lines
and bridges and hit many supply dumps, gun positions and factories, generally
located NE of Rome.
  HQ 340th Bombardment Group (Medium) moves from Paestum, Italy to Corsica.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): A single B-24, enroute from
Kwajalein Atoll to Tarawa Atoll, bombs Jaluit Atoll; B-25s from Eniwetok
Atoll bomb Ponape Island while B-25s from Abemama Island strike Jaluit and
Maloelap Atolls, using Majuro Atoll as an arming station between strikes;
Japanese bombers carry out an ineffective raid on Eniwetok Atoll.
  26th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 11th Bombardment Group (Heavy), moves
from Tarawa Atoll to Kwajalein Atoll with B-24s.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): 19 B-24s on a mission to
the Caroline Islands bomb Eten, Param, and Kuop Islands and targets of
opportunity in Truk Atoll. On New Britain Island, 24 B-25s and 40+ fighter-
bombers blast a supply area at Ratawul; and 8 other fighter-bombers hit
Wunapope. 20+ fighter-bombers strike various targets in the NE part of
Bougainville Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, B-25s and
P-39s hit barges and luggers in Vanimo Harbor and at Bogia.
  673d Bombardment Squadron (Light), 417th Bombardment Group (Light), moves
from Dobodura to Saidor, New Guinea with A-20s.

SATURDAY, 15 APRIL 1944

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): During the night of 14/15 Apr 3 B-24s on armed
reconnaissance mission over Matsuwa and Onnekotan Islands hit several targets
including Matsuwa Airfield; reconnaissance over Paramushiru Island fails due
to overcast.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): 12 B-24s over the Andaman Islands attack
shipping and other targets at Port Blair. 12 P-38s hit Heho Airfield, Burma,
destroying several parked airplanes.
  19th Liaison Squadron, US Army Forces, CBI, arrives at Kanchrapara, India
with L-5s (first mission is in Jun 44).

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 3 B-25s knock out a bridge at Viet Tri,
French Indochina, and damage another.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 303: 616 fighters are
dispatched on strafing sweeps of C and W Germany, airfields being the primary
objectives; 33 fighters are lost. Details are:
  1. 132 P-38s claim 7-0-2 Luftwaffe aircraft; 11 P-38s are lost and 16
damaged; 11 pilots are MIA.
  2. 262 P-47s claim 20-1-23 Luftwaffe aircraft; 7 P-47s are lost, 1 damaged
beyond repair and 13 damaged; 7 pilots are MIA.
  3. 222 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-51s claim 30-0-10 Luftwaffe aircraft;
15 P-51s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 5 damaged; 12 pilots are MIA.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Moves in England: HQ 100th Fighter
Wing from Ibsley to Lashenden; HQ 397th Bombardment Group (Medium) and 596th,
597th, 598th and 599th Bombardment Squadrons (Medium) from Gosfield to
Rivenhall with B-26s (first mission is 20 Apr); 377th, 378th and 379th
Fighter Squadrons, 362d Fighter Group, from Wormingford to Headcorn with
P-47s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Clearing weather again permits
bomber operations. 448 B-17s and B-24s attack marshalling yards; B-17s hit
Ploesti, Rumania and Nis, Yugoslavia; B-24s hit Bucharest, Rumania; 150+
fighters provide escort.
  A special group, led by Lieutenant Colonel Louis A Neveleff, flies from
HQ at Bari, Italy to Medeno Polji, Yugoslavia and from there the group
proceeds to Marshall Tito's HQ at Drvar, where Colonel Neveleff confers with
Tito and spends several days laying the groundwork for the evacuation of
downed US airmen in Yugoslav hands. Also, much information is gathered
regarding the military organization and political trend of the partisan
movement. The mission returns to Italy on 2 May and 122 men, mostly Fifteenth
Air Force airmen, are also evacuated.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium bombers strike a
marshalling yard at Leghorn and a tunnel and railroad bridges in C Italy;
P-47s attack rail lines, bridges and ammunition dumps NE of Rome with good
results; other P-47s, P-40s and A-36s hit numerous targets, including rail
lines, motor transport shop, vehicles, tanks and gun positions, in C Italy
and in the US Fifth Army battle areas.
  XII Air Support Command is redesignated XII Tactical Air Command.
  Moves in Italy: HQ 332d Fighter Group and 301st Fighter Squadron from
Montecorvino to Capodichino with P-39s; 486th Bombardment Squadron (Medium),
340th Bombardment Group (Medium), from Gaudo Airfield to Alesan, Corsica with
B-25s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): Major General Robert W Douglass
Jr becomes Commanding General Seventh Air Force.
  B-25s, based on Tarawa Atoll, bomb Maloelap Atoll, rearm at Majuro Atoll
and hit Jaluit and Mille Atolls on the return trip.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 24
B-25s bomb an ammunition dump on Talili Bay; 11 P-39s follow with a strike on
the same target; 3 P-38s fire the Wunapope supply area; other fighter-bomber
strikes on the same area are cancelled by weather. A few P-38s hit targets
in the NE part of Bougainville Island.
  72d Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 5th Bombardment Group (Heavy), moves from
Munda, New Georgia Island to Momote Airfield, Los Negros Island with B-24s.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 180+ B-24s,
B-25s and A-20s bomb landing strips, off-shore islands and the entire coastal
area in the vicinity of Aitape; 16 P-40s strafe barges at nearby Seleo
Island; 20 P-39s hit villages, supply dumps, trucks and other targets along
Hansa Bay and in the Alexishafen area.

SUNDAY, 16 APRIL 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 12 B-25s hit a bridge over the
Mogaung River while 9 others, along with 12 P-51s, hit a warehouse and
railroad station at Mohnyin; 9 P-38s destroy 3 medium bombers at Zayatkwin
near Rangoon while 2 P-51s in the Mandalay area hit Anisakan Airfield,
destroying 2 airplanes.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (XX Bomber Command): 768th Bombardment Squadron (Very
Heavy), 462d Bombardment Group (Very Heavy), arrives at Piardoba, India with
B-29s; first mission is 5 Jun.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): HQ 55th Fighter Group and 338th
and 343d Fighter Squadrons move from Nuthampstead to Wormingford, England
with P-38s.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): HQ 410th Bombardment Group (Light)
and 644th, 645th, 646th and 647th Bombardment Squadrons (Light) move from
Birch to Gosfield, England with A-20s; first mission is 4 May.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 31st Fighter Group with P-51s
(transferred from Twelfth Air Force on 1 Apr) begins operations. It becomes
the fifth operational fighter group of the Fifteenth Air Force.
  432 B-17s and B-24s hit targets in Rumania and Yugoslavia; B-17s bomb the
industrial area at Belgrade, Yugoslavia and an aircraft plant at Brasov,
Rumania; B-24s hit marshalling yards at Brasov and Turnu Severin, Rumania;
90+ fighters fly escort while 50+ others, failing to rendezvous with the
bombers, strafe trains on the Craiova line E of Turnu Severin.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s bomb approaches to
Ficulle and Todi railway bridges; A-20s blast fuel supplies; P-40s, P-47s and
A-36s hit the Capranica viaduct, town of Zagarolo, railway at Spigno
Monferrato, marshalling yard at Orte-Terni, tunnel at Capranica and tracks,
vehicles, railway cars, ammunition dump, bridge, and targets of opportunity
at various points in C Italy.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-25s, staging through Eniwetok
Atoll, strike Truk Atoll; B-25s from Abemama Island hit Maloelap and Mille
Atolls, using Majuro Atoll as a rearming base between the strikes.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): 15 B-24s bomb the runway at
Satawan Atoll, Caroline Islands. On New Britain Island, 24 B-25s hit the
Ratawul supply area and alternate target of Raluana; at Rabaul 30+ fighter-
bombers attack area inland from Toboi wharf.
  23d Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 5th Bombardment Group (Heavy), moves from
Munda, New Georgia Island to Momote Airfield, Los Negros Island with B-24s.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 170+ B-24s,
B-25s and A-20s bomb Hollandia town and airfield and numerous other targets
in the area; P-39s hit a wooded area and communications targets along Hansa
Bay and attack villages and supply dumps from Bogia to Uligan Harbor; P-38s
hit Madang area; B-24s fly a light strike against Wakde Island; other
aircraft, operating singly or in pairs, attack targets of opportunity on the
N coast of New Guinea and SE coast of New Britain Island. Other B-25s bomb
Koepang on Timor Island.

MONDAY, 17 APRIL 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 6 P-51s support ground forces near
Meza; 9 P-38s destroy several airplanes at Heho Airfield while 5 B-24s bomb
Ywataung; 26 B-25s and 36 P-51s support ground forces at Mawlu and bomb a
fuel dump at Kin; 13 other P-51s are diverted to intercept a Japanese force
over the Imphal, India area and claim 3 airplanes shot down.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 304: 14 of 15 B-24s bomb
the V-weapon site at Wizernes, France without loss; escort is provided by 33
P-47s.
  Mission 305: 5 of 5 B-17s drop 1.48 million leaflets on Rennes, Brest,
Nantes, Lorient and St Nazaire, France at 2248-2258 hours without loss.
  HQ 493d Bombardment Group (Heavy) and 860th, 861st, 862d and 863d
Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy) move from Elveden Hall to Debach, England with
B-24s; first mission is 6 Jun.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Unit moves in England: HQ 70th
Fighter Wing from Boxted to Ibsley; and HQ 354th Fighter Group and 353d and
356th Fighter Squadrons from Boxted to Lashenden with P-51s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  AAF, MTO: 121st Liaison Squadron, AAF, MTO moves from Oran to Telergma,
Algeria with L-4s and L-5s; first mission is in Sep 44.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 470 B-17s and B-24s hit targets
in Bulgaria and Yugoslavia; B-17s bomb the industrial area, air depot and
marshalling yard at Belgrade, Yugoslavia; B-24s bomb the marshalling yard at
Sofia, Bulgaria; 200+ fighters escort the missions; US aircraft claim 25
enemy aircraft downed in combat.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s attack bridges N
of Orte and at Monte Molino, while A-20s pound a fuel dump NE of Rome; P-40,
P-47 and A-36 fighter-bombers hit motor transport stores and gun positions N
of Anzio, bomb Fara in Sabina station, hit tracks, trains and guns in the
Orte and Narni area and at other points N of Rome.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-25s, based on Tarawa Atoll,
strike Maloelap and Mille Atolls, rearming at Majuro Atoll between the raids.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): 20 B-24s bomb the airfield
at Satawan Atoll. On New Britain Island, 24 B-25s pound runway and revetments
at Rapopo Airfield; 40+ fighter-bombers hit Matupi with incendiaries while 10
others pound the runway at Keravat.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): 20+ B-24s bomb storage areas
and troop concentrations in Kai Island, Moluccas Islands. In New Guinea,
P-39s attack AA positions at Bogia; other planes, operating individually or
in pairs, attack Hollandia, Uligan Harbor and vicinity and the Madang area.
  674th Bombardment Squadron (Light), 417th Bombardment Group (Light), moves
from Dobodura to Saidor, New Guinea with A-20s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Apr 1994 07:57:38 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: TRIVIA: Treaty of Versailles and Wine

On Wed, 13 Apr 1994 15:21:39 GMT-6 Terry Moore said:
>Hello, Captain Collins, Ken and others!

To you, too!

>Thanks for jarring my memory. Of course, Sekt is the word instead of
>the word "Port" which I used. I am no wine expert and, overseas,
>certainly beer is the mainstay.

I found while abroad the more "brut" & "sec", the better I liked the champagne
(which is why I have a problem with most American brands:  far too sweet).
Does anyone remember if the Germans have an "extra" sekt?  Maybe "kraftwertig"
sekt, or some such (-:

ken koester
maint2@ers.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Apr 1994 08:22:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: INF: USN 19 APR 44

FROM THE NAVY NEWS SERVICE

NNS241.  This Week in the Navy:  Apr. 19, 1944 -- Allied naval
force, including the carrier USS Saratoga and 3 US destroyers,
strikes enemy positions at Sabang, Netherlands East Indies.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Apr 1994 08:47:00 EST
From:    Don Bowden <BOWDEN@MGRP.BGSM.WFU.EDU>
Subject: TRV: champagne

        One thing that wasn't mentioned was that the Germans drink their
champagne (seckt?) with orange juice added. Put in that context it may be
more understandable why the French would want a lock on the name.
Don Bowden
Winston-Salem, NC

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Apr 1994 09:14:00 EST
From:    Don Bowden <BOWDEN@MGRP.BGSM.WFU.EDU>
Subject: Kasserine

        Sidney Allenson mentioned the Kasserine Pass battle as a debacle which
(the inference was) demonstrated how the American Army could have learned from
British experience. There is an example of what I have found baffling in the
discussion of the capacities of various armies in WWII. In the great scheme of
things the Kasserine Pass battle was a tactical defeat at the divisional, corps
level for the Americans in their first large scale action in WWII. My recollec-
tion is that it pretty well trashed one or two combat commands of a US armored
division and several thousand prisoners were taken by the Germans. The strate-
gic impact was nil and probably had the positive effect of winnowing out some
of the less effective American officers. Compared with our allies and enemies
such an action wouldn't even have gotten a footnote in their official his-
tories. What the Americans could have learned from the British to prevent it
is questionable.
        I think a great deal in how a battle is viewed is the post-action
marketing. For example, I would call the surrender of Tobruk (40,000-50,000
men) a debacle, or the Dunkirk evacuation (not the evacuation, but what lead
up to it) was a debacle. Need we go on?... Singapore, Greece, Crete, etc.
The major genuine defeat of the American Army in WWII was in the Phillipines
which I believe only had 1-2 US Army divisions. If it hadn't been for the
political pull of McArthur, even these men wouldn't have been lost in what
was considered a strategically indefensible position by the American Chiefs
of Staff for years. Other American defeats were the 45th Div. attempt to
cross the Rapido in Italy and the surrender of two regiments of the 106th
ID in the initial stages of the Battle of the Bulge. Remember that one
regiment of the 106th was not surrounded, did not surrender, and contributed
significantly to the defense of St. Vith. Heaven knows that in the Germna
and Russian armies merely losing a division was just another day at the
office. They only got upset when say they 30 or 40 divisions could get
surrounded and annihilated. I would assert that the American war machine
responded much more flexibly and learned much quicker. Of course we didn't
have the ability of Montgomery to lose 200 tanks in a day no ground
 and gain no ground
in front of Caen, or annihilate an airborne division at Arnhem, and come back
and say it was exactly what we had planned.

PS. I have been reading a book which keeps talking about the SS Gross Deutsch-
land division. I thought the divsion of this name was not SS, but a more or
less elite division of the Wehrmacht. Anyone know for sure?

Don Bowden
Winston-Salem, NC

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Apr 1994 09:23:35 -0400
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: TRV: champagne

        For a while, this was marginally associated with WWII (with the
Treaty of Versailles connection).  That doesn't seem to be the case anymore.
Perhaps the topic could be moved to the wine connosisseur mailing list? :-)
Thanks.
--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
Oh, man, don't hit me with those negative waves so early in the morning.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Apr 1994 10:30:19 EDT
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <hb9388@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kasserine

Don Bowden,

Good post!  Nice succinct analysis.  I'm in agreement with most of your
comments.

As far as the Grossdeutschland Division: it was an elite Heer unit, did NOT
belong to the Waffen SS.  Early in the war it was a motorized infantry
regiment, became a motorized infantry division, then a panzergrenadier division
but with the same amount of tanks as a regular panzer division.

Many other units were affiliated with the Grossdeutschland:

the Brandenburgers, later Pz Gren Div Brandenburg
Pz Div Kurmark
the Fuhrer Begleit (Escort) brigade
the Fuhrer Grenadier brigade

Barry

Barrett F. Lowe               RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, West Point  (e-mail:  hb9388%usma6@trotter.usma.edu)

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Apr 1994 10:40:27 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kasserine

Hello, Don!

    Great post and I heartily concur with your comments.

> PS. I have been reading a book which keeps talking about the SS Gross Deutsch-
> land division. I thought the divsion of this name was not SS, but a more or
> less elite division of the Wehrmacht. Anyone know for sure?

    Yes, the Grossdeutschland Division was an elite ARMY division
that was composed of the Fuehrer Begleit Brigade and two others that
don't come to mind right now. The SS had no such division named
"Grossdeutschland" and the author of your book has certainly not done
his homework. Such an error as this would make me suspicious of
anything credible he might say.

    Hope this helps. BTW, it was the 36th "Texas" Division which was
virtually wiped out trying to cross the Rapido. This division never
recovered psychologically from that fiasco.

    Terry



Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Apr 1994 10:51:01 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: A-9 and A-10

Hello Gudmundur!

Here goes with some more info.

                    A-9

Similar to the the A-4b, but built of much lighter material and
fitted with the A-6 fuel system in order to achieve a range of 400
miles. The control was to be by accelerometer during the early part
of the trajectory and then by radio during the glide phase. The
missle was to be continuously monitored by 2 radar stations to give a
constant fix on its location and when directly above the target,
would be commanded into a vertical dive. It was hoped that this
configuration of trajectory would make detection and interception
more difficult.

The design was to go into production until, in 1943, the military
situation demanded a quicker and more easily manufactured solution
and it was abandoned in favor of the A-4. Some reports speak vaguely
about a piloted version to be fitted with a pressurized cabin,
retractable landing gear and controls to permit it to be manually
landed at the end of its flight, but there could have been little
military importance in such a project, and this was probably a post-
war intention rather than a definite project.


                  A-10

A project for a 2-stage rocket conceived in mid-1940. This was a
trans-Atlantic bombardment missle. The A-10 was the first stage and
and A-4 or A-9-the proposals varied-was to be the second stage. The
expected range was in the region of 2800 miles, but, although,
preliminary calculations were carried out, no detailed design work
was done.

    More later.

    All the best.

    Terry






Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Apr 1994 08:58:25 -0700
From:    Mark Stanford <markstan@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: NOST: Mitchell Hunters...

On Wed, 13 Apr 1994, Robert J. Granvin wrote:

> Miss Mitchell departs at 0'dark:30 tomorrow (Thursday, 14 April) for
> California (weather permitting).  She's flying out to attend the Annual
> Doolittle Raiders Reunion -- the first year without Jimmy Doolittle.
>
> According to the current schedule, she's supposed to arrive in Chino, CA
> late afternoon 4/14 (perhaps as early as 16:00).  The flight route will
> probably see stops in Goodland, KS and Albuquerque, NM on the way
> there.  If she's forced to overnight somewhere, she's scheduled to
> arrive in Chino no later than noon on Friday, 4/15.
( Stuff Deleted)
> --
> Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
> rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force
>

I live in Anaheim and I am VERY interested in seeing the "Miss Mitchell".
Due to my work schedule, I won't be able to go to the Chino field on Friday.
I plan on going to Van Nuys and would like to get the updates, if
possible. Also, are there going to be any other aircraft at Van Nuys, and
how firm is the arrival/departure times? Would it be possible to get the
merchandise prices (email?)?. I want to bring plenty of $$$$!

Mark Stanford
markstan@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Apr 1994 12:26:09 -0400
From:    Ricky Prado <prado@LIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: good riddance

        I am glad to say that I have unsubscribed to this listserv. It
typified many listservs in that it was a personal sounding board for a
select few on a subject they imagine themselves authorities. I was
receiving so many e-mail messages a day that it was clogging up my
account. Just how much of the Internet bandwidth do you use by including
entire messages just to correct a single sentence, or make some such
uninteresting point? And how many times must I look at the message below?
Is it posted on a daily basis? Should I memorize it to save you the
trouble of posting the d**n thing?

        On the whole, my experience with this listserv has been very dis-
appointing. I say good riddance and helloooo disk space!

> COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
> 14 - 17 APRIL 1944
> FTP SITES
>   1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
>   2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
>      wwii_chronology
>
> AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
>   A-20, Douglas Havoc
>   A-36, North American Apache
>   B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
>   B-24, Consolidated Liberator
>   B-25, North American Mitchell
>   B-26, Martin Marauder
>   B-29, Boeing Superfortress
>   L-4, Piper Cub/Grasshopper
>   L-5, Stinson Sentinel
>   P-38, Lockheed Lightning
>   P-39, Bell Airacobra
>   P-40, Curtiss
>   P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
>   P-51, North American Mustang
>
> FRIDAY, 14 APRIL 1944
>
> AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS
>
>   ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 3 B-24s fly armed photo reconnaissance mission
> during early the morning over Matsuwa, Onnekotan, and Paramushiru Islands,
> Kurile Islands. Photographs taken are negative due to cloud cover.
>
> CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS
>
>   BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 20 P-40s over the Mogaung Valley
> attack a camp at Manywet; 20 P-51s and 3 B-25s support ground forces in the
> Mawlu area.
>
> EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)
>
>   STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 350th and 351st Fighter Squadrons,
> 353d Fighter Group, move from Metfield to Raydon, England with P-47s.
>
>   TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Moves in England: HQ 363d Fighter
> Group and 380th, 381st and 382d Fighter Squadrons from Rivenhall to
> Staplehurst with P-51s; 355th Fighter Squadron, 354th Fighter Group, from
> Boxted to Lashenden with P-51s.
>
> MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)
>
>   TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s attack Viterbo
> Airfield and Leghorn marshalling yard, B-26s strike at Poggibonsi, Certaldo,
> Cecina and Magra, attacking mostly rail facilities and hit Arezzo bridge and
> viaduct and Bucine viaducts; fighter-bombers also concentrate on rail lines
> and bridges and hit many supply dumps, gun positions and factories, generally
> located NE of Rome.
>   HQ 340th Bombardment Group (Medium) moves from Paestum, Italy to Corsica.
>
> PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): A single B-24, enroute from
> Kwajalein Atoll to Tarawa Atoll, bombs Jaluit Atoll; B-25s from Eniwetok
> Atoll bomb Ponape Island while B-25s from Abemama Island strike Jaluit and
> Maloelap Atolls, using Majuro Atoll as an arming station between strikes;
> Japanese bombers carry out an ineffective raid on Eniwetok Atoll.
>   26th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 11th Bombardment Group (Heavy), moves
> from Tarawa Atoll to Kwajalein Atoll with B-24s.
>
> SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): 19 B-24s on a mission to
> the Caroline Islands bomb Eten, Param, and Kuop Islands and targets of
> opportunity in Truk Atoll. On New Britain Island, 24 B-25s and 40+ fighter-
> bombers blast a supply area at Ratawul; and 8 other fighter-bombers hit
> Wunapope. 20+ fighter-bombers strike various targets in the NE part of
> Bougainville Island.
>
> SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, B-25s and
> P-39s hit barges and luggers in Vanimo Harbor and at Bogia.
>   673d Bombardment Squadron (Light), 417th Bombardment Group (Light), moves
> from Dobodura to Saidor, New Guinea with A-20s.
>
> SATURDAY, 15 APRIL 1944
>
> AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS
>
>   ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): During the night of 14/15 Apr 3 B-24s on armed
> reconnaissance mission over Matsuwa and Onnekotan Islands hit several targets
> including Matsuwa Airfield; reconnaissance over Paramushiru Island fails due
> to overcast.
>
> CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS
>
>   BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): 12 B-24s over the Andaman Islands attack
> shipping and other targets at Port Blair. 12 P-38s hit Heho Airfield, Burma,
> destroying several parked airplanes.
>   19th Liaison Squadron, US Army Forces, CBI, arrives at Kanchrapara, India
> with L-5s (first mission is in Jun 44).
>
>   CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 3 B-25s knock out a bridge at Viet Tri,
> French Indochina, and damage another.
>
> EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)
>
>   STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 303: 616 fighters are
> dispatched on strafing sweeps of C and W Germany, airfields being the primary
> objectives; 33 fighters are lost. Details are:
>   1. 132 P-38s claim 7-0-2 Luftwaffe aircraft; 11 P-38s are lost and 16
> damaged; 11 pilots are MIA.
>   2. 262 P-47s claim 20-1-23 Luftwaffe aircraft; 7 P-47s are lost, 1 damaged
> beyond repair and 13 damaged; 7 pilots are MIA.
>   3. 222 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-51s claim 30-0-10 Luftwaffe aircraft;
> 15 P-51s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 5 damaged; 12 pilots are MIA.
>
>   TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Moves in England: HQ 100th Fighter
> Wing from Ibsley to Lashenden; HQ 397th Bombardment Group (Medium) and 596th,
> 597th, 598th and 599th Bombardment Squadrons (Medium) from Gosfield to
> Rivenhall with B-26s (first mission is 20 Apr); 377th, 378th and 379th
> Fighter Squadrons, 362d Fighter Group, from Wormingford to Headcorn with
> P-47s.
>
> MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)
>
>   STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Clearing weather again permits
> bomber operations. 448 B-17s and B-24s attack marshalling yards; B-17s hit
> Ploesti, Rumania and Nis, Yugoslavia; B-24s hit Bucharest, Rumania; 150+
> fighters provide escort.
>   A special group, led by Lieutenant Colonel Louis A Neveleff, flies from
> HQ at Bari, Italy to Medeno Polji, Yugoslavia and from there the group
> proceeds to Marshall Tito's HQ at Drvar, where Colonel Neveleff confers with
> Tito and spends several days laying the groundwork for the evacuation of
> downed US airmen in Yugoslav hands. Also, much information is gathered
> regarding the military organization and political trend of the partisan
> movement. The mission returns to Italy on 2 May and 122 men, mostly Fifteenth
> Air Force airmen, are also evacuated.
>
>   TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium bombers strike a
> marshalling yard at Leghorn and a tunnel and railroad bridges in C Italy;
> P-47s attack rail lines, bridges and ammunition dumps NE of Rome with good
> results; other P-47s, P-40s and A-36s hit numerous targets, including rail
> lines, motor transport shop, vehicles, tanks and gun positions, in C Italy
> and in the US Fifth Army battle areas.
>   XII Air Support Command is redesignated XII Tactical Air Command.
>   Moves in Italy: HQ 332d Fighter Group and 301st Fighter Squadron from
> Montecorvino to Capodichino with P-39s; 486th Bombardment Squadron (Medium),
> 340th Bombardment Group (Medium), from Gaudo Airfield to Alesan, Corsica with
> B-25s.
>
> PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): Major General Robert W Douglass
> Jr becomes Commanding General Seventh Air Force.
>   B-25s, based on Tarawa Atoll, bomb Maloelap Atoll, rearm at Majuro Atoll
> and hit Jaluit and Mille Atolls on the return trip.
>
> SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 24
> B-25s bomb an ammunition dump on Talili Bay; 11 P-39s follow with a strike on
> the same target; 3 P-38s fire the Wunapope supply area; other fighter-bomber
> strikes on the same area are cancelled by weather. A few P-38s hit targets
> in the NE part of Bougainville Island.
>   72d Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 5th Bombardment Group (Heavy), moves from
> Munda, New Georgia Island to Momote Airfield, Los Negros Island with B-24s.
>
> SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 180+ B-24s,
> B-25s and A-20s bomb landing strips, off-shore islands and the entire coastal
> area in the vicinity of Aitape; 16 P-40s strafe barges at nearby Seleo
> Island; 20 P-39s hit villages, supply dumps, trucks and other targets along
> Hansa Bay and in the Alexishafen area.
>
> SUNDAY, 16 APRIL 1944
>
> CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS
>
>   BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 12 B-25s hit a bridge over the
> Mogaung River while 9 others, along with 12 P-51s, hit a warehouse and
> railroad station at Mohnyin; 9 P-38s destroy 3 medium bombers at Zayatkwin
> near Rangoon while 2 P-51s in the Mandalay area hit Anisakan Airfield,
> destroying 2 airplanes.
>
>   STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (XX Bomber Command): 768th Bombardment Squadron (Very
> Heavy), 462d Bombardment Group (Very Heavy), arrives at Piardoba, India with
> B-29s; first mission is 5 Jun.
>
> EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)
>
>   STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): HQ 55th Fighter Group and 338th
> and 343d Fighter Squadrons move from Nuthampstead to Wormingford, England
> with P-38s.
>
>   TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): HQ 410th Bombardment Group (Light)
> and 644th, 645th, 646th and 647th Bombardment Squadrons (Light) move from
> Birch to Gosfield, England with A-20s; first mission is 4 May.
>
> MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)
>
>   STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 31st Fighter Group with P-51s
> (transferred from Twelfth Air Force on 1 Apr) begins operations. It becomes
> the fifth operational fighter group of the Fifteenth Air Force.
>   432 B-17s and B-24s hit targets in Rumania and Yugoslavia; B-17s bomb the
> industrial area at Belgrade, Yugoslavia and an aircraft plant at Brasov,
> Rumania; B-24s hit marshalling yards at Brasov and Turnu Severin, Rumania;
> 90+ fighters fly escort while 50+ others, failing to rendezvous with the
> bombers, strafe trains on the Craiova line E of Turnu Severin.
>
>   TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s bomb approaches to
> Ficulle and Todi railway bridges; A-20s blast fuel supplies; P-40s, P-47s and
> A-36s hit the Capranica viaduct, town of Zagarolo, railway at Spigno
> Monferrato, marshalling yard at Orte-Terni, tunnel at Capranica and tracks,
> vehicles, railway cars, ammunition dump, bridge, and targets of opportunity
> at various points in C Italy.
>
> PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-25s, staging through Eniwetok
> Atoll, strike Truk Atoll; B-25s from Abemama Island hit Maloelap and Mille
> Atolls, using Majuro Atoll as a rearming base between the strikes.
>
> SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): 15 B-24s bomb the runway at
> Satawan Atoll, Caroline Islands. On New Britain Island, 24 B-25s hit the
> Ratawul supply area and alternate target of Raluana; at Rabaul 30+ fighter-
> bombers attack area inland from Toboi wharf.
>   23d Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 5th Bombardment Group (Heavy), moves from
> Munda, New Georgia Island to Momote Airfield, Los Negros Island with B-24s.
>
> SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 170+ B-24s,
> B-25s and A-20s bomb Hollandia town and airfield and numerous other targets
> in the area; P-39s hit a wooded area and communications targets along Hansa
> Bay and attack villages and supply dumps from Bogia to Uligan Harbor; P-38s
> hit Madang area; B-24s fly a light strike against Wakde Island; other
> aircraft, operating singly or in pairs, attack targets of opportunity on the
> N coast of New Guinea and SE coast of New Britain Island. Other B-25s bomb
> Koepang on Timor Island.
>
> MONDAY, 17 APRIL 1944
>
> CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS
>
>   BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 6 P-51s support ground forces near
> Meza; 9 P-38s destroy several airplanes at Heho Airfield while 5 B-24s bomb
> Ywataung; 26 B-25s and 36 P-51s support ground forces at Mawlu and bomb a
> fuel dump at Kin; 13 other P-51s are diverted to intercept a Japanese force
> over the Imphal, India area and claim 3 airplanes shot down.
>
> EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)
>
>   STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 304: 14 of 15 B-24s bomb
> the V-weapon site at Wizernes, France without loss; escort is provided by 33
> P-47s.
>   Mission 305: 5 of 5 B-17s drop 1.48 million leaflets on Rennes, Brest,
> Nantes, Lorient and St Nazaire, France at 2248-2258 hours without loss.
>   HQ 493d Bombardment Group (Heavy) and 860th, 861st, 862d and 863d
> Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy) move from Elveden Hall to Debach, England with
> B-24s; first mission is 6 Jun.
>
>   TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Unit moves in England: HQ 70th
> Fighter Wing from Boxted to Ibsley; and HQ 354th Fighter Group and 353d and
> 356th Fighter Squadrons from Boxted to Lashenden with P-51s.
>
> MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)
>
>   AAF, MTO: 121st Liaison Squadron, AAF, MTO moves from Oran to Telergma,
> Algeria with L-4s and L-5s; first mission is in Sep 44.
>
>   STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 470 B-17s and B-24s hit targets
> in Bulgaria and Yugoslavia; B-17s bomb the industrial area, air depot and
> marshalling yard at Belgrade, Yugoslavia; B-24s bomb the marshalling yard at
> Sofia, Bulgaria; 200+ fighters escort the missions; US aircraft claim 25
> enemy aircraft downed in combat.
>
>   TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s attack bridges N
> of Orte and at Monte Molino, while A-20s pound a fuel dump NE of Rome; P-40,
> P-47 and A-36 fighter-bombers hit motor transport stores and gun positions N
> of Anzio, bomb Fara in Sabina station, hit tracks, trains and guns in the
> Orte and Narni area and at other points N of Rome.
>
> PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-25s, based on Tarawa Atoll,
> strike Maloelap and Mille Atolls, rearming at Majuro Atoll between the raids.
>
> SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): 20 B-24s bomb the airfield
> at Satawan Atoll. On New Britain Island, 24 B-25s pound runway and revetments
> at Rapopo Airfield; 40+ fighter-bombers hit Matupi with incendiaries while 10
> others pound the runway at Keravat.
>
> SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): 20+ B-24s bomb storage areas
> and troop concentrations in Kai Island, Moluccas Islands. In New Guinea,
> P-39s attack AA positions at Bogia; other planes, operating individually or
> in pairs, attack Hollandia, Uligan Harbor and vicinity and the Madang area.
>   674th Bombardment Squadron (Light), 417th Bombardment Group (Light), moves
> from Dobodura to Saidor, New Guinea with A-20s.
>
> SOURCES:
> AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
>   Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
> COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
>   History, Headquarters USAF 1982
> THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
>   Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
> THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2
>
> Jack McKillop
> USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
> 1955-59
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> |  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
> |  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
> |  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
> |  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Apr 1994 12:04:11 -0500
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: TRV: champagne

In message World War II Discussion List writes:
>         For a while, this was marginally associated with WWII (with the
> Treaty of Versailles connection).  That doesn't seem to be the case anymore.
> Perhaps the topic could be moved to the wine connosisseur mailing list? :-)
> Thanks.

Are you saying that WWII research and discussion doesn't drive you to drink
every now and then?

:-)


--
Robert J. Granvin                                             rjg@stat.umn.edu
University of Minnesota, School of Statistics
         "I'm my father?  I'm my mother?  I'm chipped beef on toast?"

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Apr 1994 13:32:07 -0400
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: good riddance

Mr. Prado,

        Simply unsubscribing would have been sufficient.  Considering that
several members lived through and a few actually fought in this conflict,
while others have made the topic a lifetime advocation and vocation, I must
point out that you are way off base.  I don't recall you contributing much
to this list except for this imflammatory message.  I find your premise that
being helpful and willing to share information is nothing more than an
opportunity to show off truly bizarre.  Do you resent the knowledge that
others have?  Only on one point are we in agreement: good riddance.

--
Joe Barone, WWII-L owner
m1b@ssd.ray.com

PS: Since I haven't received your unsubscribe notification yet, I've
taken the liberty of honoring your wish.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Apr 1994 13:49:02 -0400
From:    "Mr. Scott Hannon" <hannon@UMBC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kasserine

Don Bowden writes:
> ... Kasserine Pass battle was a tactical defeat at the divisional, corps
> level for the Americans in their first large scale action in WWII. ...
> The major genuine defeat of the American Army in WWII was in the
> Phillipines which I believe only had 1-2 US Army divisions.

Right, basically one US Army div and a couple independent battalions of
cavalry, tanks, etc. But there were about 10 Philippine divisions!

> If it hadn't been for the political pull of McArthur, even these men
> wouldn't have been lost in what was considered a strategically
> indefensible position by the American Chiefs of Staff for years.

I doubt it. The folks in Washington DC were against the idea of MacArthur
forming a large Philippine army (10-12 divisions). The one US division
would almost surely have stayed...where else you gonna deploy The
Philippine Scouts?  :-)
All Mac's whining got out of DC was a couple extra battalions.

Mac's plan was to form a large force that could crush any invaders (Luzon
would be held by maybe 6 divisions). The Japanese could probably not land
more than about 2-3 division before the US Luzon forces could arrive at
the landing site to fight them at overwhelming odds (Japanese performance
against the USSR and Chinese had lead most folks to rate Japanese skill as
less than that of US troops). The Philippines would be somewhat self-
sufficient, and thus if ammo/medical supplies/etc were stockpiled, the US
forces might hold out for a couple years until the US Navy was once again
able to get thru.

But there were problems with this plan. The folks in DC were against it,
and thus Mac had a real battle to get any support for the Philippine
army (equipment was in extremely short supply...lacking in basics like
rifles and uniforms let alone artillery, radios, etc). The only folks
in DC interested in the Philippines were the USAAF, and they had their
own plan (basically they viewed the islands as a nice base for a strategic
airwar against Japan rather than as something they were there to defend).
But the main problem was probably that of timing...Mac had grossly mis-
estimated the time he had available to get his army together...the war
came about 2 years too soon. The Philippine troops entered battle grossly
under-trained and under-equipped, and thus performed poorly. And Mac
made some un-timely changes in the command structure leading to lots
of confusion.

Mac had over-estimated the effectiveness of his troops and thus went ahead
with his attack to drive the Japanese into the sea. Not only was this a
disaster for the attacking troops, but Mac had started redeploying his
supplies forward to support the attack, and thus when the rout came he had
a very hard time getting them moved into Bataan. So he ended up on the
Bataan penninsula with a mix of good and worthless troops (mouths to feed
and deserters to guard against), reduced supplies, etc...

> ... the 45th Div. attempt to cross the Rapido in Italy
          ^^ 36th I think

> PS. I have been reading a book which keeps talking about the SS Gross
> Deutschland division. I thought the divsion of this name was not SS, but
> a more or less elite division of the Wehrmacht. Anyone know for sure?

There was more than one GD division. In late 1944 or early 1945 a GD Panzer
Div was formed for the defense of Germany and used in the fighting along the
Oder river. I think much of this div was SS.

The famous GD division was not SS, but it was organized more like an SS
div than an army div.

Scott.
Scott Hannon, Thu Apr 14 1994 (hannon@umbc.edu)

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Apr 1994 12:02:14 -0500
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: NOST: Mitchell Hunters...

In message <Pine.3.85.9404140825.A28771-0100000@netcom2> Mark Stanford writes:
>
>
> On Wed, 13 Apr 1994, Robert J. Granvin wrote:
>
> > Miss Mitchell departs at 0'dark:30 tomorrow (Thursday, 14 April) for
> > California (weather permitting).  She's flying out to attend the Annual
> > Doolittle Raiders Reunion -- the first year without Jimmy Doolittle.
> >
> > According to the current schedule, she's supposed to arrive in Chino, CA
> > late afternoon 4/14 (perhaps as early as 16:00).  The flight route will
> > probably see stops in Goodland, KS and Albuquerque, NM on the way
> > there.  If she's forced to overnight somewhere, she's scheduled to
> > arrive in Chino no later than noon on Friday, 4/15.
>
> I live in Anaheim and I am VERY interested in seeing the "Miss Mitchell".
> Due to my work schedule, I won't be able to go to the Chino field on Friday.
> I plan on going to Van Nuys and would like to get the updates, if
> possible. Also, are there going to be any other aircraft at Van Nuys, and
> how firm is the arrival/departure times? Would it be possible to get the
> merchandise prices (email?)?. I want to bring plenty of $$$$!

Van Nuys is really the start of the big airplane event.  The times are very
firm (weather dependent) for Saturday and Sunday.

Apparently, the schedule at Van Nuys starts about 10:00 a.m.  The "no later
than" departure time for the aircraft of 2:00 p.m. Saturday is actually the
time when all aircraft will be ordered to start engines -- simultaneously.

Current word is that there should be about 8 B-25s and a dozen or so Mustangs.
I haven't heard any recent updates to those numbers.

The flight leader is Carl Scholl from Chino.  Someone at Chino or Eagle
Field Museum should have all the scheduling details to the minute.  :-)

PX stuff varies in price.  :-)  I know that we are carrying Miss Mitchell
hats ($8.00) and T-shirts ($20) along with some books and other "stuff."
I have no idea what other people are carrying, but you can be fairly certain
that some of them are carrying trinkets, beads and bells.  :-)

I'm hoping to hear (either via email or the list if it's globally interesting)
any witness reports this weekend...

(BTW: Miss Mitchell left on schedule at legal dawn this morning via the
northern route, taking it into Colorado Springs and then Chino... Mountain
hopping.  Cool... :-)


--
Robert J. Granvin                                             rjg@stat.umn.edu
University of Minnesota, School of Statistics
         "I'm my father?  I'm my mother?  I'm chipped beef on toast?"

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Apr 1994 14:09:07 -0400
From:    "Mr. Scott Hannon" <hannon@UMBC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kasserine

Terry Moore writes:
> BTW, it was the 36th "Texas" Division which was virtually wiped out
> trying to cross the Rapido. This division never recovered
> psychologically from that fiasco.

The 36th ID went on to fight in France and Germany in 1944/45 with the
US 7th Army, where it was probably second in effectiveness only to the
elite 3rd ID. But right, the div never forgot about Italy. There is at
least one book just on the Rapido river crossing fiasco, and another on
the div in Italy. Plus the divisional history.

The 45th ID had also fought in Italy for a while before ending up in the
US 7th Army (w/36th ID).


Scott.
Scott Hannon, Thu Apr 14 1994 (hannon@umbc.edu)

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Apr 1994 14:12:06 -0400
From:    Walter O'Hara <wohara@CAP.GWU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kasserine

> the Brandenburgers, later Pz Gren Div Brandenburg
> Pz Div Kurmark
> the Fuhrer Begleit (Escort) brigade
> the Fuhrer Grenadier brigade
>
> Barry
>
> Barrett F. Lowe               RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
> MAJ, IN
> Dept of Physics, West Point  (e-mail:  hb9388%usma6@trotter.usma.edu)

Barry:

Weren't the Brandenburgers some form of WW2 German Special Warfare group?
Some form of Commando, maybe?  I seem to recall the existence of some
special group under that name that specialized in infiltration tactics on
the Eastern Front.

Walt
oharaw@cpark.bah.com
oharaw@netcom.com
wohara@cap.gwu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Apr 1994 10:20:02 CDT
From:    Michael P LaForge <mlaforge@SAVANNA-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Champagne vs. Sekt

the word you are looking for is Sekt

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Apr 1994 13:48:42 -0400
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ricky's Lament

Regarding Ricky Prado's last (only?) post to the list....

Well, jeez, what'd we say to tee him off?  What the heck did he
*expect* from a discussion list - textbooks?  I'm sorry if I/we
offended him somehow, but on the other hand, I don't recall him
posting any witty repartee either.

And Jack, keep those USAAF 50 years ago posts coming if you please;
I *like* reading them.

Dennis E. Sparks
sparks@caer.uky.edu
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Apr 1994 15:54:00 -0400
From:    Ron Babuka <wrb1@CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: USAAF

I wish I had kept the last posting from Mr. McKillop (sometimes one is
quick to discard when one should not be) but If I recall properly that days
fighter sweeps seemed to be quite costly in terms of Luftwaffe aircraft
destroyed versus USAAF aircraft lost/damaged.  Was that days numbers
representative of most fighter sweeps in ETO?  If so I can understand a
little bit better why these sweeps were not the most loved missions with
pilots.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka                                         National Warplane Museum
Cornell University                                 Geneseo, New York
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Apr 1994 15:20:16 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kasserine

Hello, Walt!
>
> Weren't the Brandenburgers some form of WW2 German Special Warfare group?
> Some form of Commando, maybe?  I seem to recall the existence of some
> special group under that name that specialized in infiltration tactics on
> the Eastern Front.

    Yes. But that came later. The Brandenburgers went on to be
constituted as a division which became the sister division to the GD.
A Colonel Hippel established this unit that operated under the
auspices of the Abwehr, or German Intelligence. Alexander von
Pfuhlstein later became the CO of the division.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Apr 1994 15:22:04 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ricky's Lament

Hello Dennis and others!

> And Jack, keep those USAAF 50 years ago posts coming if you please;
> I *li