Subject: WWII-L Digest - 15 Apr 1994 to 16 Apr 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 17 Apr 1994 00:00:47 -0400

There are 16 messages totalling 509 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Not at all Re: MAKE.MONEY.FAST :-)
  2. MAKE.MONEY.FAST
  3. Fighter Firepower Convergence (2)
  4. Hitler corpse found?!! (4)
  5. Wright-Patterson AFB (2)
  6. Memphis Belle
  7. DDAY the longest day....
  8. TAC: RE: Kasserine
  9. Russian front, end of war...?
 10. Re[2]: Russian front, end of war...? (2)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 16 Apr 1994 00:57:35 -0500
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Not at all Re: MAKE.MONEY.FAST :-)

In message World War II Discussion List writes:
> Well, enough of that.  Back to WWII, please!  Wish I was in CA for the

Daily report from the crew indicates that 6 B-25s and 10 P-51s are currently
present.

Ours, of course, can track the others with its top turret... :-) :-)

> beautiful shows this weekend--8 B-25's, what a sight!  Bob G., let me know
> if Miss Mitchell finds her way to Central NY someday!

Was shooting for Batavia (former Geneseo show), but that looks more likely
for next year.

Wonder if CNN is there... Hmmm...

(BTW: Thanks to the Internet, at least one professional cameraman is
present working on our behalf to try and record some of this... Cool...)

--
Robert J. Granvin                                             [email-masked]
University of Minnesota, School of Statistics
         "I'm my father?  I'm my mother?  I'm chipped beef on toast?"

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 16 Apr 1994 06:31:47 -0500
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: MAKE.MONEY.FAST

A few weeks ago my University posted a warning about this posting on its
e-mail.  The posting was sent out by the FBI and said that it was
illegal to send the message and that people should not pass it on if they
were to receive it.  The thing I found comical about the whole thing was
that the man who originally started the entire scheme is now inprisoned
at a Federal Penitentiary and that a number of others were being
investigated.
Personally, I am getting tired of receiving it.  I know that it has come
through my e-mail some fifty times.

C.K. Bryant
[email-masked]
*******************************************************************
"The Riskier the road, the greater the profit."    / C.K. Bryant
        The 62nd Rule of Acquisition               / W.I.U. English
*******************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 16 Apr 1994 05:12:26 PST
From:    "Jones, Scott T." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Fighter Firepower Convergence

     This is a question that I came up with about two weeks ago and have
     been unsuccessful with finding my own answers...HELP!

     I have read numerous accounts of fighter pilots commenting on their
     aircraft's cannon/guns being pointed in slightly to cause the rounds
     to converge at a certain distance. Hence my questions...

     1) Was the distance from the aircraft to the convergence point a fixed
     value or could individual pilots/crews adjust them to the pilot's
     liking?

     2) Did this distance vary from aircraft to aircraft? (e.g. P-51- 300
     yards, P-47- 350 yards)

     3) How was the optimum ("best fit"?) distance determined. I would
     imagine that this was related to the skill of the pilot and the degree
     of comfort he had in closing in on an aircraft not to mention the
     weapon employed.)

     Thanks for any help/guidance.

     Scott Jones
     [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 16 Apr 1994 08:19:28 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hitler corpse found?!!

>
> >Do you know that 1 or 2 weeks ago was found the Hittler corpse?
> >
> >What are the versions of its death?
> >
>
> Hitler is supposed to have killed himself. His corpse was burned
> at his orders just outside the Bunker in Berlin...or so I thought.

The story is that the Soviets found his body and that of Eva Braun, as described
above and that they were taken for identification.  After positive ID, they
were secretly disposed of at the location allegedly found recently.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 16 Apr 1994 10:20:38 EDT
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Wright-Patterson AFB

George,

Sorry I cannot provide an e-mail listing, but the snail mail address is:

Curator
US Air Force Museum
Wright-Patterson AFB, OH  45433

Hope this helps.

Barry

(P.S. I went to grad school at the Air Force Institute of Technology at
Wright-Patterson).

>Is anyone on the list associated with Wright Patterson, or have contacts
>there?
>
>I am looking for the history of a particular aircraft, and  would like to
>get it via internet if possible.  If not, can someone give me a mailing
>address?
>
>Thanks
>
>
>  =========================================================================
>  | DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
>  |                                  | Computers in Business & Education. |
>  | Recently returned from my second | Education:  Curriculum development.|
>  |   extended stay in Prague.       |    International Education, TEFL.  |
>  | Working on second book about     | Central Europe:  Post revolution   |
>  |   Prague and new Czech Republic. |    economic, social, political     |
>  |                                  |    problems and opportunities.     |
>  |                                  |  B-25 in WWII.                     |
>  | E-Mail:                          | Free lance writing and editing.    |
>  |   USA:  [email-masked]    | Stamp collecting.                  |
>  =========================================================================
>

Barrett F. Lowe               RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, West Point  (e-mail:  [email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 16 Apr 1994 09:14:03 -0500
From:    Hans Werner <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Memphis Belle

Thanks to all both on the list and by e-mail for responses to query about
waist gunners on the Memphis Belle. Upon further inspection and progress
on young Werner's model it has been determined that the model has waist
gunners as it should have. The posts were informative and educational for
both father and son.

Hans
_____________________________________________________________________________
Hans Werner                             |
University of Manitoba                  |
Department of History                   |

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 16 Apr 1994 10:27:09 -0400
From:    "J.M.Ruel" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Wright-Patterson AFB

The best place to start is the Air Force Museum. The phone no is 513-255-3284
if you want info on older planes. If they don't have it they can direct you to
person or persons necessary. I know this is not an internet address. BTW the
B-25's are flying in California this weekend. There are six restored B-25's
flying in tribute to Gen. Doolittle and the flyers of the Tokyo Raid. JMR

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 16 Apr 1994 09:59:14 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: DDAY the longest day....

Hello, Filiberto!

> After the first day of invasion was the allied air force maneuvers as heavy
> as it was,

    Yes. The Allies had gone to much trouble to attain air supremacy
over the invasion area. The only aircraft flying over the beachhead
were Allied. Josef "Pips" Priller of JG-26 and his wingman were the
only German aircraft to make an attack on the beachhead itself on D-
Day. 2 aircraft and that was it. Reinforcements, being what they were
and facing the odds that they did, arrived later.

 or was possible to germans to attack the beachhead through
the
> air, bombing the provissory ports or supply places, and attacking the naval
> innofensive part of americans, supplies of food, guns, munitions, etc...?

    Yes, if they had had the men and materiel in sufficient numbers
and quantities, but the reality was that they didn't. The only
surface attack on D-Day against the Allied armada was carried out by
Commander Heinrich Hoffmann who commanded a surface force of E-boats.
I think his unit did hit a cruiser, but I can't be certain of that. I
know that one such vessel was sunk during his attack.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 16 Apr 1994 17:02:08 MET-1
From:    Bognar Attila <[email-masked]>
Subject: TAC: RE: Kasserine

Hi Scott,

> > why is that noone speaks about the Battle of the Bulge as a catastrophy?
>
> Because at least here in the USA The Battle of the Bulge is seen as a
> great victory for US troops (troops, not SHAEF!) and a near complete
> defeat for the Germans.

It really turned into a great victory of (let's be precise) the
Allied troops and a near complete defeat for the Germans. I agree.
What I wanted to emphasise was that the possibilty of a counterattack
for the Germans (and I'm also talking about the measures of it now)
was largely due to unfortunate Allied strategy. (If I understand
your message well you say that too, am I right?) It is possible that
I again failed to make myself clearly understood. I am sorry for
that.
What I also wanted to say was that someone should take the blame for
an unfortunate plan. But who speaks about that?

> A German counter-offensive was seen as a possibility, but the Wacht Am
> Rhein plan combined with a lack of "Ultra" derived intel fooled the
> Allies into believe the Germans had decided to save their forces for a
> defensive fight. It was certainly a big intel failure.

Was it only an intel failure? What has the Wacht Am Rhein plan got to
do with it? Does it have anything?
On the other hand, I'll check my sources but at the moment I can not
remember either Ike or Bradley saying that the Germans were only
capable of a defensive fight. (I recall Monty announcing this on a
press conference on 15th December if my memory does not cheat me.)

> That is such a drastic change in Allied strategy that IMO it would be
> difficult to speculate in a meaningful way on what might have been the
> overall course of the war on the western front.

I think I see this somewhat differently. What we call Allied strategy
now was an almost constantly debated, very general outline of what
the armies wanted to do in Europe. I believe that it should and could
have been different from what had actually happened. Then the Battle
of the Bulge (BOB) would not possibly taken place. At least I believe
this. I know that there might have been other, maybe worse Battles so
I'm not sure which would have been better.
I'm only saying that BOB showed how vulnerable Ike's plan was. Had it
been safer (I cant think of a better word now) the losses would have
been lesser.

 All the best,

Attila  [email-masked]

An aspect of East European existence: "How far to go which way when
we want to see where the wind sits?"

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 16 Apr 1994 10:12:50 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Russian front, end of war...?

Hello, again, Filiberto!

I will try to answer one of your questions. The others require
answers from sources which I have at home.

> The russian won the germans, entirely with American armament, right??
>
> What was the german organization in Calais during the 6 june 1944 (Battle of
> Normandy)......?
>
> the 6 june 1944 was Mont Saint Michelle attacked in some form, or was a
> german base, or rebeld base, or what was it?
>
> What was he reaction of Rommel whern received the notice of the
invassion?

    Rommel was visiting his wife in Herrlingen on 6 June, which also
was his wife's birthday. His first reaction was "How stupid of me!"
He set out to return as quickly as possible to his HQ. He was strafed
and severely wounded in the attempt.

> Do you think that Hitler had a bad strategy, or was he an idiot military
> talking?

    Hitler was forced by circumstances, i.e. taking on too much for
too small a force, to denude his defences in France. He was fooled
into thinking that the invasion would come at the Pas de Calais, with
much Allied help, BTW, which forced to him to station large numbers
of tanks and troops in that area under the command of General der
Panzertruppen Freiherr Geyr von Schweppenburg.

    Your question is not easy to answer. If the Allies had come into
the Pas de Calais, as Hitler thought, then his strategy would have
been correct. It would have been very difficult for the Allies to
have entered France that way with all those troops and tanks there.

    Hitler's fault in this area was his rigidity and refusal to trust
the commanders in the field. He insisted on personal authorization to
release those tanks in the PdC area, and he stubbornly refused to
allow their employment at Normandy until it was too late. Therein
lies the rub, and then it became a situation in which the Germans
were thrown off balance, kept off balance and they never recovered
from this. All this was brought about by Allied air supremacy over
the invasion area. This Allied air supremacy made it virtually
impossible for the Germans to insert sufficient reinforcements into
the invasion area to stop the Allied invasion. Of course, the Germans
were forced to move at night, but even that slowed the Germans down.

    Again, your question may be looked at in different ways, but
fate, circumstances, combined with Hitler's obstinancy and insistence
on personal command down to battalion level, in some cases,  all
meshed to bring about the downfall of the German forces in the West.
The same can be said for what happened in the East.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry
 >  =========================
>  Filiberto Farini
>  [email-masked]
>  Quito - Ecuador
>  ==========================
>

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 16 Apr 1994 09:21:24 PST
From:    "Jones, Scott T." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hitler corpse found?!!

     Are UFO's or Elvis involved with this in any way? I am reminded of a
     "story" in the National Inquirer (or some other educational source)
     which claimed Soviet cosmonauts found the remains of a B-29 on the
     MOON! I know full well that the Moon is out of the range of a B-29!!

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 16 Apr 1994 09:21:28 PST
From:    "Jones, Scott T." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re[2]: Russian front, end of war...?

     Terry Moore wrote of Hitler:

     "He was fooled into thinking that the invasion would come at the Pas
     de Calais, with much Allied help, BTW, which forced to him to station
     large numbers of tanks and troops in that area under the command of
     General der Panzertruppen Freiherr Geyr von Schweppenburg."

     Wasn't the sole reason for Hitler's thinking of the invasion forces
     hitting Pas de Calais simply because it was the shortest straight line
     distance from the coasts of England and France? (I understand the
     Allies had a few exercises or "attention getters" in that area to add
     credibility to Hitler's beliefs.)

     As an additional question, why were the beaches of Normandy chosen as
     the point of attack? Why not closer to Berlin or Paris? To what extent
     did supplies logistics play into this decision? What was Spain doing
     at this time?

     Scott Jones
     [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 16 Apr 1994 11:47:02 -0500
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hitler corpse found?!!

In message World War II Discussion List writes:
>      Are UFO's or Elvis involved with this in any way? I am reminded of a
>      "story" in the National Inquirer (or some other educational source)
>      which claimed Soviet cosmonauts found the remains of a B-29 on the
>      MOON! I know full well that the Moon is out of the range of a B-29!!

Well, once it attains and breaks orbit, all it has to do is coast... :-)

On the other hand, are we sure it's a B-29 and not a Tu-4 Bull?

:-)

--
Robert J. Granvin                                             [email-masked]
University of Minnesota, School of Statistics
         "I'm my father?  I'm my mother?  I'm chipped beef on toast?"

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 16 Apr 1994 16:56:57 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Fighter Firepower Convergence

On Sat, 16 Apr 1994, Jones, Scott T. wrote:

>      I have read numerous accounts of fighter pilots commenting on their
>      aircraft's cannon/guns being pointed in slightly to cause the rounds
>      to converge at a certain distance. Hence my questions...
>
>      1) Was the distance from the aircraft to the convergence point a fixed
>      value or could individual pilots/crews adjust them to the pilot's
>      liking?

As I understand it, "harmonizing" guns was done on a firing range with
the tail jacked up level. Not something that would be done more than once
or twice.

>      2) Did this distance vary from aircraft to aircraft? (e.g. P-51- 300
>      yards, P-47- 350 yards)
>
>      3) How was the optimum ("best fit"?) distance determined. I would
>      imagine that this was related to the skill of the pilot and the degree
>      of comfort he had in closing in on an aircraft not to mention the
>      weapon employed.)

More likely it varied by the opinion of the commander. Claire Chennault
had the guns harmonized at 300 yards for the AVG P-40s, close range by
the standards of the time, because he thought his pilots should get in close.

Not always the best idea, to judge by an anecdote told of Tex Hill, who
supposedly came home from a mission with holes stitched through both
wings. As the story went, a Japanese pilot had fired at him from too
great a distance, with the bullets crossing halfway and Tex remaining
unharmed in the middle of the spread.

Cheers - Dan     <[email-masked]>

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 16 Apr 1994 17:51:04 +0000
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Russian front, end of war...?

On Sat, 16 Apr 1994, Jones, Scott T. wrote:
>
>      Wasn't the sole reason for Hitler's thinking of the invasion forces
>      hitting Pas de Calais simply because it was the shortest straight line
>      distance from the coasts of England and France? (I understand the
>      Allies had a few exercises or "attention getters" in that area to add
>      credibility to Hitler's beliefs.)

That was one of the reasons, but as I understand it, Hitler's belief that
the attack would come at Calais had a lot to do with the success of the
allied deception. Hitler, and many others in the German high command,
assumed that since Patton was the best Allied commander (their opinion at
the time, I won't debate it now), he would naturally lead the invasion of
France. Knowing that this was the German opinion, the Allies built a fake
army around Patton, targeting it towards Calais. They even went so far as
to have Patton occasionally blurt out things like "I'll meet you in
Calais" etc., to to add to the  deception. The majority of the Germans
bought this bluff hook-line and sinker. Hitler was among those convinced.
This was another reason that he didn't want to release the Panzers from
Calais. He was convinced that since Patton's 1st army was still in
England, that the invasion at Normandy was a diversion to allow Patton
easier access to Calais.
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 16 Apr 1994 15:47:09 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hitler corpse found?!!

After the victorious Soviet troops discovered and identified the burned
corpeses of Adolph Hitler and Mrs Hitler, they were buried in the
grounds of a NKVD barracks just outside Berlin, in July 1945.
Buried along with Mr & Mrs Hitler, were the corpses of Mr & Mrs Goebbels
and their four children (who had been murdered by their parents before their
own suicides).
Grisly as it sounds, these eight human remains were exhumed and re-buried
no less than eight times over the next 30 years, being taken along every time
the Soviet secret police unit moved.
Documentary evidence about these facts, plus speken testimony by male and
female ex-officers of the Soviet army and secret police, was revealed in
1992.

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 15 Apr 1994 to 16 Apr 1994
*************************************************