Subject: WWII-L Digest - 27 Apr 1994 to 28 Apr 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 1994 00:01:00 -0400

There are 37 messages totalling 1003 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Exercise Tiger (2)
  2. TAC: Graf Spee (Was: Tirpitz) (3)
  3. Solution for hydraulic fluid loss on bomber (4)
  4. Otto Skorzeny
  5. INF: USAAF 28 APR 44 (5)
  6. GEN: MUTINY IN 95TH DIVISION? (2)
  7. TRV: B-17 in reverse (2)
  8. WEAP: Weird Weapons (7)
  9. JUNK: Pope AFB or Ft. Bragg??
 10. Re[2]: Solution for hydraulic fluid loss on bomber
 11. Spins as offensive tactics (was:Re: TRV: B-17 in reverse)
 12. TAC: River Platte (Graf Spee) (2)
 13. world war II newsgroups
 14. Smooth bore guns
 15. Martin B-10 bombers in WW-II
 16. WWII-L Digest - 25 Apr 1994 to 26 Apr 1994 (2)
 17. Tirpitz

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Apr 1994 22:40:16 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Exercise Tiger

Thanks for the follow-up.
How on earth RAdm Moon -- or anyone else -- could think his having
planned Exercise TIGER had anything at all to do with German S-Boats
sinking the convoy, is ludicrous.
However, it seems it must have preyed on his mind. Another casualty.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 28 Apr 1994 10:14:01 +0200
From:    Bengt Nilsson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TAC: Graf Spee (Was: Tirpitz)

>Graf Spee had a decent chance to evade HMS Norfolk et al had Ludendorf
>acted immediately upon sighting them.
>--
>Peter Smith -- Data General Corp., Westboro, MA
>[email-masked] (preferred) or [email-masked]

I haven't been following this discussion closely, but was the Norfolk actually
involved in the battle with the Graf Spee? Wasn't the British ships involved
the Exeter, the Achilles and the Ajax?

Bengt Nilsson
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 28 Apr 1994 07:39:17 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Solution for hydraulic fluid loss on bomber

I was reading an Industrial Safety textbook yesterday. It mentioned in an
anecdotal way a line about a WW-II bomber that could not land due to no
fluid in hydraulic resivoir. Problem was temporarily solved when one of
the crew "Urinated" into the resivior, enabling the system to lower the
landing gear.

Is this a true story? Has anyone heard of this?

                                                                Steve

Reply to:"sep@trctc/commnet.edu"

Thanx!

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 28 Apr 1994 07:52:29 EDT
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor,
         Marist Coll" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Solution for hydraulic fluid loss on bomber

This story gives new meaning to the phrase that all aviators are
full of "piss and vinegar!" Regards-

>anecdotal way a line about a WW-II bomber that could not land due to no
>fluid in hydraulic resivoir. Problem was temporarily solved when one of
>the crew "Urinated" into the resivior, enabling the system to lower the
>landing gear.
>

Jonah Triebwasser
Adjunct Instructor
Marist College
Dyson Building (Adult Education)
Poughkeepsie, New York12601
Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
E-Mail: [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 28 Apr 1994 07:02:50 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Otto Skorzeny

Hello, Emery!

I did reply to that and assumed that you had received the post. Here
goes again.

Skorzeny was involved in several exploits that made him famous. The
Allies at one time had labeled him "the most dangerous man in Europe".

Otto Skorzeny was made famous, of course, by leading the German force
which liberated Mussolini from the Badoglio Government on 23 Sep 1943
at the sports hotel located in the Gran Sasso Mountains.

He was also involved in the attempt to capture the son of Admiral
Horthy, the regent of Hungary, in 1944. This did not come off.

Finally, he was placed in command of Sonderkommando 150, which was
charged with the task of creating havoc behind the Allied lines
during the initial phases of the Battle of the Ardennes in 1944. This
unit was composed of English-speaking Germans dressed in American
uniforms and supplied with captured American equipment.

Although not charged with the capture of General Eisenhower,
Skorzeny did not discourage such rumors, as he felt that any such
rumors would only add to the confusion and consternation in the
Allied camp.

Skorzeny was decorated with the Knight's Cross with Oakleaves. He
survived the war, emigrated to Spain where he became head of the
Mercedes-Benz Corporation in Madrid. He died in 1967 of a massive
heart attack.

His wife is still living and maintains a residence in Germany and one
in Madrid, Spain.

Hope this helps.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 28 Apr 1994 08:23:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USAAF 28 APR 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
FRIDAY, 28 APRIL 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  F-5, Lockeed Lightning
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  P-70, Douglas

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 12 P-38s blast the Tiddim road,
causing a roadblock; in the Mogaung Valley 80+ A-36s, P-40s, P-51s, and a
single B-25 pound the same general targets hit on the 27 Apr; in the Mandalay
area 7 B-25s knock out a railroad bridge S of Myingatha and a canal bridge
between Ye-u and Kinu.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 26 B-24s, escorted by 10 P-51s,
damage 2 bridges over the Yellow River N of Chengchow (the capture of which
by Japanese troops is acknowledged by the Chinese who evacuate Hulaokuan),
and pound a nearby storage area; 2 P-40s on armed reconnaissance strafe a
troop column NE of Tengchung; 3 B-25s on reconnaissance damage a small
steamer off the E coast of Hainan Island; 16 P-40s and 6 B-25s pound Yangsin
while 18 P-40s, P-38s, and P-51s strafe Nanchang barracks.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): MORNING OPERATIONS: Mission 325:
223 bombers are dispatched:
  1. 116 of 117 B-17s hit Avord Airfield, France; 2 B-17s are lost and 38
damaged; 20 airmen are MIA. Escort is provided by 118 P-47s and 87 P-51s;
they claim 0-0-2 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 8-0-3 on the ground; 2
P-51s are lost and 2 damaged; 2 pilots are MIA.
  2. 18 of 106 B-17s bomb the Sottevast, France V-weapon site and targets
of opportunity; clouds prevent most B-17s from bombing; 2 B-17s are lost and
47 damaged; 3 airmen are WIA and 21 MIA. Escort is provided by 46 P-47s
without loss.
  2 fighter-bomber missions are also flown against airfields in France:
    1. 34 P-38s using the Droopsnoot method, bomb Tours Airfield; 11 P-38s
fly escort; 1 P-38 is lost and 1 damaged; 1 pilot is MIA.
    2. 49 P-38s using the Droopsnoot method, bomb Chateaudun Airfield while 3
P-38s fly escort; 1 P-38 is damaged; 32 P-47s, with 4 P-47 escorts, dive-bomb
the same target; they claim 1-0-1 aircraft on the ground.
  AFTERNOON OPERATIONS: Mission 325: 47 of 47 B-24s bomb the Marquise/
Mimoyecques, France V-weapon sites; 1 B-24 is damaged beyond repair and 6
damaged; 9 airmen are WIA.  Escort is provided by 50 P-47s without loss.
  16 P-47s, with 8 escorts, dive bomb an unidentified airfield near Paris
without loss.
  NIGHT OPERATIONS: Mission 326: 5 of 5 B-17s drop 1.64 million leaflets on
17 towns in Belgium, France and The Netherlands including Antwerp, Brussels,
Paris, Tours, Lorient, Nantes, Orleans, Zwolle, Leeuwarden, Turnhout and
Amersfoort without loss.
  21 B-24s are dispatched on CARPETBAGGER missions without loss.
  848th and 851st Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), 490th Bombardment Group
(Heavy), arrive at Eye, England from the US with B-24s; first mission is 4
Jun and 31 May respectively.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 18 B-26s bomb the airfield at
Cormeilles-en-Vexin, France as a secondary target. Nearly 250 B-26s
dispatched to bomb marshalling yards are recalled because of heavy cloud
cover over the targets.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Clearing weather again permits
bomber operations; 450+ B-17s and B-24s attack targets in Italy; 188 B-17s
bomb Piombino Steel Works and port; 168 B-24s bomb the port area at San
Stefano al Mare; and 108 B-24s bomb the port area at Orbetello; P-38s, P-51s
and P-47s provide escort.
  32d Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, 90th Photographic Wing
(Reconnaissance), arrives at San Severo, Italy from the US with F-5s; first
mission is 18 May.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium bombers attack
Piombino, railway bridges N of Orvieto, Ficulle, and W of Arezzo, and hit
viaducts at Incisa in Valdarno and Piteccio; A-20s score hits on a fuel dump;
P-40s and P-47s hit a fuel dump NW of Ferentino, warehouses S of Avezzano,
several railway lines and targets of opportunity N of Rome, the Orbetello
railroad yards, San Stefano al Mare harbor, rail lines at points between Rome
and Avezzano, several gun emplacements, Follonica and Chiusi marshalling
yards, and cut railroad lines at several points NW of Rome; fighter-bombers
also hit Chiusi marshalling yard, tracks around Castiglione della Valle,
Cortona marshalling yard, Grosseto railroad bridge, scattered motor transport
and a barge near Follonica.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-25s, based on Makin Island,
strike Jaluit and Mille Atolls, using Majuro Atoll as a shuttle base between
strikes. A single B-24 from Kwajalein Atoll bombs islands in Jaluit Atoll,
hitting Emidj first, then rearming at Makin Island, and attacking Jabor and
Enybor during the return flight.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 24
B-25s bomb the Wunapope supply area and Rapopo airfield; and 30 fighter-
bombers hit the runway and revetments at Vunakanau. On Bougainville Island,
15 P-39s pound gun positions near Mamagata and hit nearby bivouac and supply
areas.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 160+ B-24s and
B-25s bomb Wakde, Biak and Efman Island airfields; 180+ P-47s, P-39s, A-20s
and P-70s hit a variety of targets along the N and NE New Guinea coast
including villages and supply areas in the Wewak and Boram areas, barges and
troops at the mouth of the Sepik River and at Murik Lakes, and enemy
communications and hideouts from the Sepik River to Cape Croisilles.
  21 B-24s of the Thirteenth Air Task Force bomb the airfield on Woleai
Atoll.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 28 Apr 1994 19:11:06 +0200
From:    John Ausland <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN: MUTINY IN 95TH DIVISION?

  Oslo, April 28.  A friend told me recently that he was assigned to the 95th
Division after it returned from Europe and was on its way to the Pacific.  There
was mass resistance against having to participate in the attack on Japan.
Finally, the division had to be disbanded.
  Does anyone know anything about this?
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 28 Apr 1994 08:41:17 -0500
From:    "W.C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <[email-masked]>
Subject: TRV: B-17 in reverse

Here's one for the aviation buffs:

A B-17 had props that were featherable but non reversable.

A B-17 could back up under its own power.

How was this accomplished?

Bill
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 28 Apr 1994 09:43:29 -0400
From:    Peter Smith <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TAC: Graf Spee (Was: Tirpitz)

Bengt Nilsson <[email-masked]> noted:

> Subject:      Re: TAC: Graf Spee (Was: Tirpitz)
> To: Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <[email-masked]>
> Content-Type: text
> Content-Length: 464
>
> >Graf Spee had a decent chance to evade HMS Norfolk et al had Ludendorf
> >acted immediately upon sighting them.
> >--
> >Peter Smith -- Data General Corp., Westboro, MA
> >[email-masked] (preferred) or [email-masked]
>
> I haven't been following this discussion closely, but was the Norfolk actually
> involved in the battle with the Graf Spee? Wasn't the British ships involved
> the Exeter, the Achilles and the Ajax?
>
> Bengt Nilsson
> [email-masked]
>
--
Peter Smith -- Data General Corp., Westboro, MA
[email-masked] (preferred) or [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 28 Apr 1994 09:44:38 -0400
From:    Peter Smith <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TAC: Graf Spee (Was: Tirpitz)

Bengt Nilsson <[email-masked]> noted:

> I haven't been following this discussion closely, but was the Norfolk actually
> involved in the battle with the Graf Spee? Wasn't the British ships involved
> the Exeter, the Achilles and the Ajax?

He's correct, of course.  Sorry.
--
Peter Smith -- Data General Corp., Westboro, MA
[email-masked] (preferred) or [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 28 Apr 1994 09:49:07 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Exercise Tiger

Sidney Allinson writes,...
>
>Thanks for the follow-up.
>How on earth RAdm Moon -- or anyone else -- could think his having
>planned Exercise TIGER had anything at all to do with German S-Boats
>sinking the convoy, is ludicrous.
>However, it seems it must have preyed on his mind. Another casualty.

The error made on the distributed op order in radio frequecy was
probably overlooked by a very slack staff. At least someone in the
chain of command should have picked it up at the briefing, which I
assume took place, prior to the exercise. If the error only appeared
on the copies sent to the fated convoy, then the lucky babies weren't.

-Al

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Wild, LAN Mgr.  Father of 1.5             Voice:          (401) 792-2611
ACC - Lippitt - URI  American Legion Post 102. FAX:            (401) 792-5479
Kingston, RI  02881                            Bitnet:           AWild@URIACC
                                               Internet: [email-masked]
Murphy's First Two Political Principles:
1. No matter what they're telling you, they're not telling you the whole
2. No matter what they're talking about, they're talking about money.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 28 Apr 1994 10:15:48 -0400
From:    "J.M.Ruel" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Solution for hydraulic fluid loss on bomber

I would have liked to see that mans bladder. A B-17's hydraulics system held
several gallons of fluid. Any liquid could have been substituted but when it
was it played havoc with the system and caused the ground crews hours of work
as the system had to be changed and-or cleansed and flushed.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 Apr 1994 23:03:24 -0500
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: Weird Weapons

Hi Folks,

Continuing the thread about weird weapons, it was the Russians that took
Pavlov's dogs to their logical heroic conclusion but they forgot that smart
as they are, they are still dogs and if you train them using Russian tanks
those are the ones they will run to.  I guess it was a case of the dogs being
smarter than the trainers.

Along similar lines B. F. Skinner, the American Psychologist, developed a bomb
guidance system whereby pigeons were taught to peck at ship outlines on a
screen.  This screen was then stuck on the nose of an aerial bomb and rigged
such that the pigeon could "steer" the bomb by pecking the screen and elec-
tronic impulses would move the fins to center the ship in the screen.  Mean-
while the pigeon is pecking like heck at this ship outline expecting some
bird seed to magically appear as it had before.  It probably would have worked
too but the govt. scrapped the idea before it was implemented.  I guess they
thought it would take all the fun out of it for the pilots.

Cheers, Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 28 Apr 1994 09:20:12 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRV: B-17 in reverse

> Here's one for the aviation buffs:
>
> A B-17 had props that were featherable but non reversable.
>
> A B-17 could back up under its own power.
>
> How was this accomplished?

Backing up a B-17, you mean?

Apply full right brake and surge power on right engine(s).  The castering
nature of the aircraft will try to turn the aircraft to the left.  With
the right wheels locked, the left wheel will actually move _backwards_
as the aircraft tries to pivot (in this case, it pivots on the locked
wheel ... the least resistance to movement coming from the free left main
and tailwheel which really wants to help the aircraft turn...)

Return engines to normal ground idle and repeat for other side.

Lather, rinse and repeat as necessary until B-17 has backed onto its
hardstand.

Do I get a cookie?  :-)

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
[email-masked]                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 28 Apr 1994 11:00:19 EST
From:    Chuck McCormick <[email-masked]>
Subject: JUNK: Pope AFB or Ft. Bragg??

Text item: Text_1

     This is way off the subject of the list but if there is anyone on this
     last at Pope AFB or Ft. Bragg could you please contact me??

     Thanks and sorry about the 'JUNK' message.

     Chuck McCormick
     [email-masked]
     [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 28 Apr 1994 11:42:30 -0400
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Weird Weapons

Bill Huber writes:
> Continuing the thread about weird weapons, it was the Russians that took
> Pavlov's dogs to their logical heroic conclusion but they forgot that smart
> as they are, they are still dogs and if you train them using Russian tanks
> those are the ones they will run to.  I guess it was a case of the dogs being
> smarter than the trainers.

        Didn't it also have to do with the scent of the different fuels?
Soviet armor used diesel fuel while the Germans used gasoline.  Also, the
Soviet tanks would normally be closer to the dogs than the German tanks.
I recall reading that the use of these dogs infuriated the Germans for the
inhumane treatment of such fine animals.
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
Crap Game: And who are those bunch of refugees over there?
 Odd Ball: Hey, it's the band!
Crap Game: The band? What do we need a band for?
 Odd Ball: Have a little faith, Crap Game, they're beautiful people!

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 28 Apr 1994 11:56:23 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Weird Weapons

Does anyone have a comprehensive list of the special singular purpose
machines design for the Normandy beach assault? I can remember Mulberry
Harbors, and some chain flailing mechanized mine clearing vehicles, but
weren't there more? -Al

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Wild, LAN Mgr.  Father of 1.5             Voice:          (401) 792-2611
ACC - Lippitt - URI  American Legion Post 102. FAX:            (401) 792-5479
Kingston, RI  02881                            Bitnet:           AWild@URIACC
                                               Internet: [email-masked]
Murphy's First Two Political Principles:
1. No matter what they're telling you, it's not the whole truth.
2. No matter what they're talking about, they're talking about money.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 28 Apr 1994 09:14:32 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Weird Weapons

Another decidedly far-out idea was that of a warship made of ice and
sand. Proposal was to mold a large ship's hull from a combination of
the materials, said to be impervious to torpedos and shells. A British
scientist by the name of Magnus Pike devised it, and as some of his
previous inventions had worked well, the project was well along before
being finally abandoned.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 28 Apr 1994 11:26:01 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: MUTINY IN 95TH DIVISION?

Hello, John!

Will check it out for you. Sounds interesting!

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 28 Apr 1994 11:32:00 CST
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re[2]: Solution for hydraulic fluid loss on bomber

I've had some serious cases of having to go, but so bad you can fill a
hydraulic fluid tank-that's impressive!  I've never heard the story
before, so I can't confirm or deny it.  TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 28 Apr 1994 11:13:27 -0500
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Solution for hydraulic fluid loss on bomber

In message World War II Discussion List writes:
> I was reading an Industrial Safety textbook yesterday. It mentioned in an
> anecdotal way a line about a WW-II bomber that could not land due to no
> fluid in hydraulic resivoir. Problem was temporarily solved when one of
> the crew "Urinated" into the resivior, enabling the system to lower the
> landing gear.
>
> Is this a true story? Has anyone heard of this?

I'd have to say that it would depend on the altitude, for one thing.

It took about a half hour to dress for high-altitude bomber operations.  It
was literally impossible to unzip enough to ... Um... well, not embarass
yourself.  A lot of the anecdotes about "pissing in your boots" weren't
anecdotes.

Also, if you were doing this at altitude, you might just freeze something you
would prefer not to... :-)  It would also have to be something done quite a
ways away from base, else you'll be circling for a while.

But the main reason this seems like an urban legend is that the gear has two
redundant hydraulic systems.  If the main system is shot away, the emergency
system can be electrically or hand operated.  If this is also shot away, then
adding all the hydraulic fluid (which has a completely different viscosity :-)
isn't going to do you a lick of good.  The only time when this may be even
remotely possible is if the main system is destroyed beyond inflight repair
and the emergency system is only lightly damaged (i.e., slow leak).

In these cases, one of the things the movies don't like to point out, many
gear systems can be free dropped -- just release everything and hope that the
swinging action will set the downlocks.  This didn't work often.

It is also MUCH safer to belly land an aircraft than land on unsure wheels.
If you do not have all wheels down and locked, you risk serious injury or
worse.  If you belly land, the odds are very high you will all walk away.
If you risk dropping the gear and don't get all three, you've just made an
annoying situation dangerous -- you can't take that decision back and you
can't raise the gear again.

The other reason it seems like a legend is the amount of fluid required.
Remembering that the line is already charged with fluid, the reservoir holds
several quarts to gallons, depending on the system or aircraft.  If someone's
bladder is capable of holding 4 quarts... well... :-)

Not that I doubt said action may have taken place, but I would chalk it up to
editorial comment of a crew member rather than any serious effort to make a
shot up system work.  :-)

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 28 Apr 1994 09:58:45 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Weird Weapons

I think you would find that the German tanks usualy used diesel fuel.
American and British tanks used gasoline engines.
This was such an advantage to the Germans that Wehrmacht troops called
such tanks, "Tommy-cookers".
PS: How endearing that Germans in Russia were infuraited by the inhumane
treatment of war-dogs. Finer feelings were rare, indeed, during that
conquest.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 28 Apr 1994 10:04:32 -0700
From:    George Diez <[email-masked]>
Subject: Spins as offensive tactics (was:Re: TRV: B-17 in reverse)

This message about B-17s in reverse  prompted me to write if anyone knows
wether pilots of WWII prop planes (any nationality) ever deliberately
used spins as an offensive tactic against an enemy. I have read an
account where sometimes as a last resort they would spin as a defensive
maneuver but really hated to do that.

Any references would be great also.

George

 [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 28 Apr 1994 10:22:44 PST
From:    "Jones, Scott T." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Weird Weapons

     Bill Huber wrote...

     "Mean- while the pigeon is pecking like heck at this ship outline
     expecting some bird seed to magically appear as it had before.  It
     probably would have worked too but the govt. scrapped the idea before
     it was implemented.  I guess they thought it would take all the fun
     out of it for the pilots."

     Actually, I think the government thought that they had enough
     "peckers" working for them already. (Lord knows they do now!)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
     Scott T. Jones                |"Screw the rules, and they will multiply."
     Dahlgren, VA 22448  USA       |
     Internet: [email-masked]  |
_____________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 28 Apr 1994 14:25:35 EDT
From:    Richard Kaplan <[email-masked]>
Subject: TAC: River Platte (Graf Spee)

Before continuing the current thread of the Graf Spee's demise; the original
post questioned the effectiveness of the pocket battleship.  Keeping in mind
that the primary mission of the Graf Spee was to serve as a commerce raider,
and not as fleet combatant, then she was successful.  Before the Battle of the
River Platte (with Ajax, Achilles, and Exeter), the Graf Spee sank 9 ships with
a combined tonnage of 50,089 tons from  Sept. 30 to Dec. 2, 1939.  The Doric
Star successfully radioed the Spee's position before sinking on the 2nd.

Captain Langsdorff made one important tactical mistake in his running gun
battle with the 3 RN cruisers.  The British formed two forces, the Exeter by
itself, and the Achilles and Ajax together.  Using his greater range,
Langsdorff succeeded in disabling the Exeter inside of 90 minutes.  All the
while, he kept closing on the British, cancelling out his range advantage.  The
Achilles and Ajax continued to close at high speed, probably saving the Exeter,
and convincing Langsdorff that he was being driven into an even larger RN
force.  At that point the Graf Spee broke contact and headed for Montevideo.

Overall I think he was a gallant sort, the British did too, as they sent
representitives to his crew's funeral and to his.  If he was overmatched, it
would be by the collective knowledge of Kreigsmarine history and tradition, as
opposed to RN history and tradition.  Langsdorff overestimated his own battle
damage, te capability of his enemy, and the ability of the Graf Spee to put too
sea again and challange two damaged cruisers (Exeter had retired towards the
Falklands for repair, and Cumberland hadn't arrived from there yet).

The picture that describes Captain Langsdorff to me is one taken in Montevideo
at the funerals for his dead; the priest and/or minister have their hands
raised in the Nazi salute, while Captain Langsdorff offers a traditional Naval
salute.

                                        Richard Kaplan
                                        Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh

                                       S

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 28 Apr 1994 14:36:04 -0500
From:    "Sean J. Wright" <[email-masked]>
Subject: world war II newsgroups

Dear Sir or Madam,

I was told that this was the address that I needed to contact to receive
information about the world war II news groups.  Can you please assist
me in gaining this information.  I have attempted to find this information
in other ways and have failed.  Thank you in advanc for your time.

Sean

----------------------------------------------------------------------
|          Sean Wright             |                                 |
|                                  |  "Never play beer games with    |
| [email-masked] |   someone who used to disarm    |
| [email-masked]  |   bombs for a living"           |
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Note:  These opinions are mine and mine alone.                     |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 28 Apr 1994 14:43:58 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: USAAF 28 APR 44

> Much deleted
>SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 160+ B-24s and
>B-25s bomb Wakde, Biak and Efman Island airfields; 180+ P-47s, P-39s, A-20s
>and P-70s hit a variety of targets along the N and NE New Guinea coast
>including villages and supply areas in the Wewak and Boram areas, barges and
>troops at the mouth of the Sepik River and at Murik Lakes, and enemy
>communications and hideouts from the Sepik River to Cape Croisilles.
>  21 B-24s of the Thirteenth Air Task Force bomb the airfield on Woleai
>Atoll.
>
>SOURCES:
>AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
>  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
>COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
>  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
>THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
>  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
>THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2
>
>Jack McKillop
>USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
>1955-59
Jack,

I thought I was fairly familiar with World War II combat
aircraft, especially fighters, but a P-70?  What was that?  I
plead ignorance and anxiously await guidance!
Jim

>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
>|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
>|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
>|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-8760
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-8760

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 28 Apr 1994 17:29:13 GMT
From:    Johannes van Vuren <[email-masked]>
Subject: Smooth bore guns

Could one of you experts please explain the principles behind the smooth bore
gun.

Why was it developed and what was its advantage over rifled guns. How widely
was it used in ww2. Are they still used today?

Many thanks,
Johannes van Vuren,
Canterbury, England.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 28 Apr 1994 23:40:50 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: USAAF 28 APR 44

On Thu, 28 Apr 1994, James E Irwin wrote:

> I thought I was fairly familiar with World War II combat
> aircraft, especially fighters, but a P-70?  What was that?  I
> plead ignorance and anxiously await guidance!

It was a nightfighter version of the A-20 twin-engined bomber. Not very
successfull, because it lacked the climb and ceiling to intercept
Japanese night bombers.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 28 Apr 1994 17:02:57 EST
From:    Jorge Merino <[email-masked]>
Subject: Martin B-10 bombers in WW-II

I would be interested in hearing any information about the activity of
the Martin B-10 bombers during WW-II. I've read somewhere that there
were some in service during the conflict, and at least until 1944.
What kind of missions have these aircraft acomplished during the conflict?
Where were they stationed?

Thanks for your comments,

Jorge Merino

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 29 Apr 1994 08:20:09 AEST
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: WWII-L Digest - 25 Apr 1994 to 26 Apr 1994

Emmanuel Gustin write s-

>The Junkers Ju 390 flew to within 20km of New York, then turned back. It
>was a long-range development of the Ju 290, itself a military development
>of the four-engined long-range Ju 90 airliner. There was no Heinkel 215;
>the number 215 was allocated to Dornier for their Do 215 twin-engined
>bomber.

>From Emmanuel's comments, does this mean that there was a central authority
which allocated numbers to German aircraft? And so, does the number also mean we
can uniquely determine the manufacturer?

 Wilber.

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Wilber WILLIAMS                            [email-masked]      |
|Prentice Centre                            Telephone : +61 7 365 4232   |
|The University of Queensland               Facsimile : +61 7 365 4477   |
|Brisbane Qld 4072  AUSTRALIA                                            |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 29 Apr 1994 01:42:46 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WWII-L Digest - 25 Apr 1994 to 26 Apr 1994

On Fri, 29 Apr 1994 [email-masked] wrote:
>
> >From Emmanuel's comments, does this mean that there was a central authority
> which allocated numbers to German aircraft? And so, does the number also mean we
> can uniquely determine the manufacturer?

In theory, the numbers were unique, if you count only aircraft that were
actually built and flown.

The numbers were allocated by the RLM, the Reichsluftministerium. This
allocated numbers for engines, aircraft, guns, etc. Part of the official
designation was also a prefix number; I believe that it was 8 for aircraft
and 9 for aircraft engines. So the Me 109 was officially the 8-109. An
aircraft that was moved from one manufacturer to another, as the Me 155/
Bv 155, could keep its number.

The RLM allocated blocks of numbers to manufacturers for their projects;
so aircraft made by a single manufacturer could have increasing numbers.
E.g.  Focke-Wulf had 186--200, Messerschmitt 261-264, Blohm und Voss
137--144.  Sometimes numbers were 'traded'; Kurt Tank acquired the 152-154
series for his aircraft from another manufacturer, because he disliked the
original numbers allocated to him. Also, numbers that had been assigned
previously to aircraft that had not been built, were often reused.

Another common practice was to use the old number +100, for a development
or replacement: The Me 210 was to replace the 110, and the 310 and 410
were developments of the 210. The Ju 188 was a development of the Ju 88,
and so was the Ju 388, but the 288 was an all-new design, and the 488 a
four-engined bomber.

There is at least on example when a number was used for two completely
different aircraft, both built and flown: Messerschmitt used 209 for a
high-speed record-setting aircraft and for a high-altitude fighter.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 28 Apr 1994 16:59:50 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Weird Weapons

The best overall account describing the special devices/weapons used
on D-Day is: SECRET WEAPONS, by Neville Shute.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 28 Apr 1994 17:08:45 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TAC: River Platte (Graf Spee)

Yes, the significance of Capt Langsdorff making the Nazi raised-arm salute
reflects the official Nazification of the German Navy that early (1939)
in WW2.
Capt Langsdorff was following the offcial leadership credo of Admiral
Doenitz, who frequently circulated his reminder that: "It is nonsense
to say that the soldier or officer must be non-political. The soldier or
sailor embodies the State in which he lives; he is its representative,
the outspoken advocate of the States. Therefore. he has to stand behind
this State with all his might."

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 28 Apr 1994 17:18:03 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Tirpitz

Probably the best account of Stalag Luft II is still:
        THE GREAT ESCAPE, by Paul Brickhill.
As you probably know, the 50th anniversary of the breakout ocurred
earlier this month.  I just got off the 'phone with a friend of mine,
W/C Jim Lang, who attended the memorial service in St Clents Dane Church,
London. (say again, better spelled) St. Clements Dane Church, London, the
RAF Church. A huge turnout, and moving religious service of remembrance.
For the escape itself, but even more for those 50 RAF/RCAF airmen escapers
who were murdered by the Gestapo.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 28 Apr 1994 20:19:06 EDT
From:    MR SKIP WILDER <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: USAAF 28 APR 44

        The Douglas P-70 was a 3-seat nightfighter version of the A-20 and
was first produced in 1942.  Its purpose was to provide the USAAF with an
interim night fighter until the specially developed Northrop P-61 Black
Widow became available.

 -----------------------------------------------------------
 |    Skip Wilder              |                           |
 |    [email-masked]      |"The road to hell is paved |
 |    FAX (703)528-2103        | with good intentions."    |
 |    McLean, Virginia, U.S.A. |                           |
 -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 28 Apr 1994 21:28:23 -0500
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: USAAF 28 APR 44

In message World War II Discussion List writes:
> > Much deleted
> >SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 160+ B-24s
> and
> >B-25s bomb Wakde, Biak and Efman Island airfields; 180+ P-47s, P-39s, A-20s
> >and P-70s hit a variety of targets along the N and NE New Guinea coast
> >including villages and supply areas in the Wewak and Boram areas, barges and
> >troops at the mouth of the Sepik River and at Murik Lakes, and enemy
> >communications and hideouts from the Sepik River to Cape Croisilles.
> >  21 B-24s of the Thirteenth Air Task Force bomb the airfield on Woleai
> >Atoll.
>
> Jack,
>
> I thought I was fairly familiar with World War II combat
> aircraft, especially fighters, but a P-70?  What was that?  I
> plead ignorance and anxiously await guidance!
> Jim

The P-70 was a night-fighter version of the Douglas A-20 Havoc (twin engined
attack aircraft).

The first verions carried a 20 mm cannon and later versions basically just
bristled with .50 caliber machine guns, converting the bomb nose into the
radar dome.

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 27 Apr 1994 to 28 Apr 1994
*************************************************