Subject: WWII-L Digest - 4 Apr 1994 to 5 Apr 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 1994 00:00:44 -0400

There are 37 messages totalling 1370 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Spain's Franco (compared with Hitler/Muss.):  Good Guy?
  2. D-DAY:FS (5)
  3. INF: USAAF 5 APR 44
  4. Re[2]: Weap: B-17 vs B-24 (6)
  5. Manny Klette and the 91st BG
  6. U.S. Occupation of Japan
  7. D-Day (2)
  8. Re-2-: AF Guardian
  9. INF: German uniforms (3)
 10. WEAP: Helicopters in WW-II
 11. TRV:French diplomatic blunders
 12. WEAP: Early Jets
 13. France & Reservations
 14. Re[2]: Re[2]: Weap: B-17 vs B-24 (2)
 15. Hs-294
 16. Heinz Dittmar over mach 1? Me-163v-1 (2)
 17. Re[2]: D-DAY:FS
 18. Chuck Yeagers Kills in wwii
 19. MEDIA: Degrelle is dead
 20. TRV:  DeGaulle's faux pas
 21. Hs-293
 22. SPECULATION: No WWII for USA without Pearl Harbor?
 23. NOST: 50 years ago this week

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Apr 1994 09:48:39 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Spain's Franco (compared with Hitler/Muss.):  Good Guy?

> >Franco seemed to begin his takeover because of the social problems/
> >  disintegration and corruption of Spain.  Considering how he paved
> >  the way to the Spanish democracy we seem to have now, didn't his
> >  military takeover/junta HELP Spain?
>
> I don't agree with this.  Spain was in no sense disintegrating before Franco's
> pronunciamento; Franco & the right simply couldn't stomach Spanish democracy
> nor even a centrist government taking power.  Originally, Franco expected the
> Republic to roll over as had every other government of Spain when an army
> officer "pronounced"; it did, in fact, but the real shocker was that elements
> ranging from urban bourgeoisie with a centrist outlook all the way to the
> Anarcho-Syndicalists on the left finally got sick and tired of these episodes
> and took up arms.

I don't think there's much good to be said either about Franco or the
Stalinists who took over the Republican side after the war started.  Neither
one gave a tinker's damn about anything resembling "democracy", and were
more than willing to kill LOTS of people to ensure that democracy didn't
happen in Spain.  The myth of the heroic "democratic" Republicans was just
that, a MYTH, especially after the Stalinists began purging and KILLING the
democrats and anarchists.  Franco of course is self explanatory.  The best
thing which can be said for him is that he wasn't Hitler, not an especially
enthusiastic epitaph.  He WAS smarter than Mussolini, which explains why
he died of old age.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 09:29:47 +0100
From:    Yannick FRANCOIS Bozzo the Clone Yin Yang <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: D-DAY:FS

Hum!!

>All the French TV stations have been covering this scandal.  The
>heros, the ones who risked their lives to save the country are
>kicked out by the arrogance of the current government which is
>making its plans at the last minute and expects everybody to
>kowtow to it.

What do you really mean by arrogance? I'd like to remember you that some of
the people of this governement were in concentration camp, others were
fighting as resistants or FFL.

>cancellation of the reservations.  So, they couldn't own up
>to their mistake, but the veterans will keep their rooms at
>the hotels and the bigshots (the "liberated") will be put in
>hotels in Paris.

I'm preatty happy that you also consider your president (Clinton) as a
liberated (and a bigshot)! Sure he won't appreciate the whole fun of this
affair!

>The people who did this:
>Ministere des Affaires Etrangeres
>37, Quai d'Orsay
>75007 Paris FRANCE

This is the correct address if you want to validate a passport, or
whatever, not for some protests.

>(What are they doing "requisitioning" in peacetime anyway?)

Maybe you should be french to have a more accurate point of vue on all this...

You should also read this morning's english papers that say: the french
have no hospitality. I'm sure we haven't, but in this case nobody has an
atom of hospitality.

Well, I'm sad that this affair went this way, but I'm also disgusted of
what was said on it (and only a very small part was true). I really hate
the reporters, and I also dislike people who can't have a discernment in
front of their biased information.

A la revoyure.
Je suis un pauvre petit francais egare sur le reseau...

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 07:17:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USAAF 5 APR 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
WEDNESDAY, 5 APRIL 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 13 B-24s bomb the railroad from
Moulmein to Kanchanaburi, destroying 3 bridges, damaging several others, and
causing much damage to track and railroad cars.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): P-40s from Yungning, China pound a railroad
siding at Na Cham, French Indochina, destroying 8 boxcars and a considerable
amount of track.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 288: 21 of 50 B-24s
dispatched hit V-weapon sites at St Pol/Siracourt, France without loss; heavy
clouds and the failure of blind-bombing equipment cause other B-24s to return
to base without bombing. 50 P-47s escort the B-24s without loss.
  Mission 289: 96 P-38s, 236 P-47s and 124 P-51s are dispatched to attack
airfields in Germany; heavy cloud hinders most groups; results are:
  1. P-38s: 1 is lost and 4 damaged; 1 pilot is MIA.
  2. P-47s claim 2-0-2 Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 P-47 is lost and 4 damaged; 1
pilot is MIA.
  3. P-51s claim 96-4-120 Luftwaffe aircraft; 7 P-51s are lost and 3 damaged;
casualties are 1 KIA and 6 MIA.
  During the night of 5/6 Apr, 801st Bombardment Group (Provisional)
dispatches 17 B-24s on CARPETBAGGER (air operations to drop supplies to
guerillas in Europe) missions; 1 B-24 is lost.
  Units arriving in England from the US: HQ 487th Bombardment Group (Heavy)
at Lavenham; 503d, 504th and 505th Fighter-Bomber Squadrons, 339th Fighter-
Bomber Group at Fowlmere with P-51s (first mission is 30 Apr); and 832d,
833d, 834th and 835th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), 486th Bombardment Group
(Heavy), with B-24s (first mission is 7 May).

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Units arriving in England from the
US: HQ 36th Fighter Group and 22d Fighter Squadron at Kingsnorth with P-47s
(first mission is 8 May); HQ 50th Fighter Group and 10th, 81st and 313th
Fighter Squadrons at Lymington with P-47s (first mission is 1 May); HQ 367th
Fighter Group and 392d Fighter Squadron at Stony Cross with P-38s (first
mission is 9 May); HQ 397th Bombardment Group (Medium) and 596th, 597th,
598th and 599th Bombardment Squadrons (Medium) at Gosfield with B-26s (first
mission is 20 Apr); 411th and 412th Fighter Squadrons, 373d Fighter Group at
Woodchurch with P-47s (first mission is 8 May); 506th, 507th and 508th
Fighter-Bomber Squadrons, 404th Fighter-Bomber Group, at Winkton with P-47s
(first mission is 1 May); and 513th Fighter-Bomber Squadron, 406th Fighter-
Bomber Group, at Ashford with P-47s (first mission is 9 May).

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 334 B-17s and B-24s hit targets
in Rumania and Yugoslavia; the B-17s bomb a marshalling yard at Ploesti,
Rumania and Nis, Yugoslavia; the B-24s hit a marshalling yard at Ploesti and
Leskovac, Yugoslavia; fighters and AA shoot down 13 bombers.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, weather precludes all
light and medium bomber action; P-40s hit the Colleferro railway station,
several fuel dumps, and gun positions in the US Fifth Army battle areas;
A-36s bomb Formia, and railway stations NW of Rome and in the Frosinone area.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-25s from Tarawa Atoll hit
Maloelap Atoll, bomb up again at Majuro Atoll, Marshall Islands, and hit
Jaluit Atoll during the return trip.
  HQ 11th Bombardment Group (Heavy) moves from Tarawa Atoll to Kwajalein
Atoll.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): 12 B-25s pound Kara,
Bougainville Island. Bad weather cancels all missions against targets in the
Bismarck Archipelago.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 270+ B-24s,
B-25s, A-20s and P-38s hit Hollandia town and dock area and villages and
stores around Humboldt Bay; P-47s and P-40s blast numerous targets in the
Hansa Bay-Bogia and Wewak areas; and B-24s hit Kaimana and Efman Island.
B-25s bomb Koepang on Timor Island.
  Units moving from Dobodura to Saidor, New Guinea: 82d Reconnaissance
Squadron (Fighter), 71st Reconnaissance Group, with P-39s; and 311th Fighter
Squadron, 58th Fighter Group, with P-47s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 07:26:25 -0400
From:    Daniel Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Weap: B-17 vs B-24

>     I don't think it can be said that the Pacific Theater got the
> inferior weapons on purpose, because that was all we had there at the
> time in Pearl Harbor, Bataan, Corregidor, Wake Island, etc. You must

Very much so! The P-40s so closely associated with the image of the 14th
Air Force in China were all sent there long after the war began. My
Flying Tiger T-shirt from NASM shows 2nd Lt Don Lopez in front of Lope's
Hope at Henghang in Dec 1943 and I think he flew it until well into 1944.

The weapons were second rate and the men were few. Maybe the Navy did
better. (Are you there, John Lundstrom?)
>
> >         Could anyone please explain this statement (Dan?). I would think
> >      that the United States would be more concerned for the safety of
> >      "Mainland America" than the well being of the Allies in Europe. Seeing
> >      as to how the West Coast was preparing for an invasion, I would think
> >      that the better equipment would go to them instead of Europe.
>
Good point. And it is a fact that our first B-26 group went to California
and ultimately to Australia. Perhaps I am overly influenced by the
griping of the people who served in the Pacific, and they had to fight
earlier and with essentially prewar equipment.

But Roosevelt from the first day wanted essentially a holding action in
the Pacific while we went to war against Germany wherever she could be
hit, which meant in North Africa and by long-range "strategic" bombing.
Does anybody know if he had a reaction to say the Battle of Midway?
Looking back, it's clear that we stopped losing the Pacific War in June
1942, and if Roosevelt was as smart as everything seems to believe,
perhaps he saw that and understood it would be safe to look to Europe first.

Cheers - Dan Ford   <e-mail: [email-masked]>
                    <postal: 433 Bay Road, Durham NH 03824 USA>
                    <voice/fax: +1-603-868-5850>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 06:59:53 CDT
From:    jesse carnes <[email-masked]>
Subject: Manny Klette and the 91st BG

Dear All ;

I will have that post on Manny Klette and his exploits with the 91st BG
(Bassingbourne, UK) for THURSDAY ... my REGRETS for the lateness of this.

I have been rather tired lately and like ALL of us on the list, rather busy
to boot.

Again, Thursday will by my date to post the Manny Klette dittie.

Apologies ;

Jesse Carnes
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 08:19:30 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: D-DAY:FS

On Tue, 5 Apr 1994 09:29:47 +0100 Yannick FRANCOIS Bozzo the Clone Yin Yang said
>>heros, the ones who risked their lives to save the country are
>>kicked out by the arrogance of the current government which is
>>making its plans at the last minute and expects everybody to
>>kowtow to it.
>
>What do you really mean by arrogance? I'd like to remember you that some of
>the people of this governement were in concentration camp, others were
>fighting as resistants or FFL.

I can't speak for the original writer.  But where I come from, it would be
pretty arrogant to use one's position/power/money to boot someone else out
of his/her long-standing reservations, just for one's own comfort.  The point
of this celebration is to honor the living and dead that did a difficult
& crucial job at the place where they did it.  I don't see anything wrong
with honoring any Maquis or FFL that participated; that's just & proper.
But not at the expense of their brothers in arms, surely.

>>cancellation of the reservations.  So, they couldn't own up
>>to their mistake, but the veterans will keep their rooms at
>>the hotels and the bigshots (the "liberated") will be put in
>>hotels in Paris.
>
>I'm preatty happy that you also consider your president (Clinton) as a
>liberated (and a bigshot)! Sure he won't appreciate the whole fun of this
>affair!

I'm not sure what you are saying here, but given Clinton's eagerness to
mend his military PR fences, I'd bet a week's wages that he'd have changed
his hotel as soon as he found out what had happened.

>>The people who did this:
>>Ministere des Affaires Etrangeres
>>37, Quai d'Orsay
>>75007 Paris FRANCE
>
>This is the correct address if you want to validate a passport, or
>whatever, not for some protests.

Well, given that we can't all go to Paris to organize a manif, what do *you*
suggest?

>You should also read this morning's english papers that say: the french
>have no hospitality. I'm sure we haven't, but in this case nobody has an
>atom of hospitality.

That just isn't true; I was always made welcome everywhere I travelled in
France. . . outside of Paris, of course, but then, my French friends from
outside of Paris tended to feel the same about Parisians (-:

>. . . . and I also dislike people who can't have a discernment in
>front of their biased information.

Yes.  Very correct--but make sure that your own information is never biased,
d'accord? (-:

ken koester, Paris, 6/72-6/73
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Apr 1994 16:35:05 -1000
From:    * <[email-masked]>
Subject: U.S. Occupation of Japan

Dear Mr. Jewell:

I am hoping you will post this notice on the WWII-L. Thank you for your
kind attention.

Subj:   U.S. Occupation of Japan

NOTICE: I am a researcher at the East-West Center in Honolulu. I am working
on a documentary film project on the occupation of Japan from 1945 through
1952. I am attempting to track down film footage (in any format) that
was shot in Japan during the occupation. If anyone knows of the location
of any film of this sort, could you please contact me at my bitnet
address "[email-masked]." Thanks you. Spencer Sherman, visiting fellow,
East West Center, Honolulu.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 15:36:00 +0100
From:    Yannick FRANCOIS Bozzo the Clone Yin Yang <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: D-DAY:FS

>I can't speak for the original writer.  But where I come from, it would be
>pretty arrogant to use one's position/power/money to boot someone else out
>of his/her long-standing reservations, just for one's own comfort.  The poi=
nt
>of this celebration is to honor the living and dead that did a difficult
>& crucial job at the place where they did it.  I don't see anything wrong
>with honoring any Maquis or FFL that participated; that's just & proper.
>But not at the expense of their brothers in arms, surely.

Exactly, that's what I meant.

>I'm not sure what you are saying here, but given Clinton's eagerness to
>mend his military PR fences, I'd bet a week's wages that he'd have changed
>his hotel as soon as he found out what had happened.

Oh! I really don't know anything about Clinton's life. What I understood
from the original phrase was that it was from the "bigshots" and
"liberated" fault that the problem arose. And I wasn't sure what really was
behind those 2 words,...

>Well, given that we can't all go to Paris to organize a manif, what do *you=
*
>suggest?

Come with me and let's make a manif! Well, I'm not a foreign affair
specialist, so I really don't know. Maybe a letter sent directly to the
Secretary could do something, although I don't think it was his decision.

>That just isn't true; I was always made welcome everywhere I travelled in
>France. . . outside of Paris, of course, but then, my French friends from
>outside of Paris tended to feel the same about Parisians (-:

I had just read this on an english newspaper and "ca m'a fait voir rouge."
I really hate all this affair because it gives a bad image of France,
because it's built upon a misunderstanding rather than a will to do the
bad, and most of all because of these reporters who made a world of it
while it needn't.

>Yes.  Very correct--but make sure that your own information is never biased=
,
>d'accord? (-:

Je pense qu'ne source internationale est un minimum dans ce genre
d'affaires. C'est pourquoi, je me suis base sur des nouvelles fran=E7aises
(abondantes et de tous les bords politiques), anglaises (qui m'ont outre),
allemandes (succintes), canadiennes (probablement les plus justes sur le
fond et sur la forme). Enfin, c'est une triste affaire dont je ne souhaite
qu'une chose: la fin (c'est pourquoi je n'en parlerai plus).

        Salut - Yannick

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 09:33:46 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Weap: B-17 vs B-24

I've been patiently wading thru all the postings inre: the Pacific Theatre
versus the European Theatre with regards to the priority Washington has
given to each. The answer is obvious on two points:
        From whence came the majority of American citizens?
        Which is closer to WASHINGTON DC?

My two cents, which is probably worth less...                   Steve

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 09:54:59 -0400
From:    Jim Broussard <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: D-Day

Question: Why are the boulevards in Paris lined with big shady trees?

Answer: The German Army hates to march in the sun.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 00:16:34 +1000
From:    Ray Fairall <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Weap: B-17 vs B-24

Surely the point is that the Japanese posed a much lesser threat than the
Germans. How about the notion that the Germans could have been developing
nuclear weapons? Germany was a first rate industrial power, Japan was not!
Besides the U.S Navy Submarines were able to do to the Japanese what the
German U-Boats could not.
My $Aus 0.02 worth,
Regards Ray.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 10:21:43 EST
From:    Mike Oaks <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: D-DAY:FS

On Tue, 5 Apr 1994 09:29:47 +0100,
Yannick FRANCOIS Bozzo the Clone Yin Yang  <[email-masked] wrote:

>Hum!!
>
>>All the French TV stations have been covering this scandal.  The
>>heros, the ones who risked their lives to save the country are
>>kicked out by the arrogance of the current government which is
>>making its plans at the last minute and expects everybody to
>>kowtow to it.
>
>What do you really mean by arrogance? I'd like to remember you that some of
>the people of this governement were in concentration camp, others were
>fighting as resistants or FFL.
>
>>cancellation of the reservations.  So, they couldn't own up
>>to their mistake, but the veterans will keep their rooms at
>>the hotels and the bigshots (the "liberated") will be put in
>>hotels in Paris.
>
>I'm preatty happy that you also consider your president (Clinton) as a
>liberated (and a bigshot)! Sure he won't appreciate the whole fun of this
>affair!
>
>>The people who did this:
>>Ministere des Affaires Etrangeres
>>37, Quai d'Orsay
>>75007 Paris FRANCE
>
>This is the correct address if you want to validate a passport, or
>whatever, not for some protests.
>
>>(What are they doing "requisitioning" in peacetime anyway?)
>
>Maybe you should be french to have a more accurate point of vue on all this...
>
>You should also read this morning's english papers that say: the french
>have no hospitality. I'm sure we haven't, but in this case nobody has an
>atom of hospitality.
>
>Well, I'm sad that this affair went this way, but I'm also disgusted of
>what was said on it (and only a very small part was true). I really hate
>the reporters, and I also dislike people who can't have a discernment in
>front of their biased information.
>
>A la revoyure.
>Je suis un pauvre petit francais egare sur le reseau...

Frogs and war never did mix. Look at their track record in WWII, French
North Africa, the Maginot Line, Paris, etc... Like you said, "Others
fighting as resistants or FFL" Some, but not the majority.
   France is still taking a back seat as far as involvement in world peace.
They're just sitting there, isolationist as ever, while everyone else is
trying to keep the world on an even keel, aqnd when that is done France
will step in and reap the benefits like they did with, and after, WWII.

    Michael Oaks
    Kennesaw State College
    [email-masked]
    Tel: (404) 423-6049  Fax (404) 423-6541

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 16:32:38 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re-2-: AF Guardian

On Sun, 3 Apr 1994, S214000 wrote:

> Happy Easter!! I really enjoyed the list of early jets the
> Emmanual(sp?)posted, But I thought the Grumman AF Guardian aircraft were
> recips. It'sbeen awhile since I read about these planes, and my
> reference material is at home, so I'm working from memory.

Yes, for the production aircraft. But the prototypes had a jet engine in
the tail; they were mixed-power aircraft.

Emmanuel

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 11:31:09 -0400
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: German uniforms

Real quick question:

        What is the historical significance of the Roman numeral twos on
the collars of German tunics?  I seem to recall some Prussian tradition
dating back to the Napoleonic era but the details escape me (not to mention
that I'm probably misremembering!).  Thanks.
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
It's a Mark 6!  And we got her by the ass!

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 10:36:11 EST
From:    Jorge Merino <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: Helicopters in WW-II

Here is a little list of some interesting early helicopters. Some of them
have participated in some way during WW-II.

- Bell 30 (1943)
- Bell 47/H-13 (December 8, 1945)
- Bell 48/R-12/H-12 (1946)
- Bell 61 (March 4, 1953, twin rotor)
- Brantly-Hynes B-1 (1946)
- Brantly-Hynes B-2 (February 21, 1953)
- Bratukhin Omega (1942, based on the german Fa-61)
- Bratukhin Omega II (1944)
- Bratukhin B-9, B-10 (1947)
- Bratukhin B-11 (1948)
- Breguet-Dorand Gyroplane Laboratoire (1933)
- Breguet-Richet Gyroplane No.1 (1947)
- Breguet-Richet Gyroplane No.2 (1948)
- Bristol 171 Sycamore (July 27, 1947)
- Bristol 173 Belvedere (January 3, 1952)
- Cierva C-1 (1920, Autogyro. Many other models were developed in the 20s)
- Cierva W.9 (1945)
- Cierva W.11 (December 7, 1948)
- Fairey Gyrodyne (December 1946)
- Firestone XR-9B (March 1946)
- Flettner early helicopters (1932, designation unknown)
- Flettner Fl-184 (1935)
- Flettner Fl-185 (1936)
- Flettner Fl-265 (March 1939)
- Flettner Fl-282 Kolibri (1942, used operationally by the german Navy)
- Focke-Achgelis Fa-61 (June 26, 1936. Often refered as Focke-Wulf Fw-61.
  On June 25, 1937, it made a static flight at 2440m for 1:20:49 hours)
- Focke-Achgelis Fa-223 Drache (1940)
- Focke-Achgelis Fa-266 Hornisse (1940)
- Focke-Achgelis Fa-330 Bachstelze (1942, Autogyro, used by german Navy)
- Gyrodyne 2, 7 Helidyne (1950s)
- Hafner R.I (1930)
- Hafner R.II (1932)
- Hafner AR.III Gyroplane (1937, Autogyro)
- Hafner Rotabuggy (1943, Flying car for military use)
- Kaman K-125A (January 15, 1947)
- Kaman K-190 (1948)
- Kaman K-225 (1950)
- Kamov-Skrzhinskii KaSkr-I (1930s)
- Kamov-Skrzhinskii KaSkr-II (1930s)
- Kamov Ka-8 (1945)
- Kamov Ka-10 "Hat" (1948)
- Kayaba Ka-1, Ka-2 (March 26, 1941, Autogyro)
- Kellet K-2, K-3, K-4 (1930s)
- Kellet KD-1 (1934)
- Kellet XR-8 (1943)
- Landgraf H-2 (November 2, 1944)
- Liore-et-Olivier LeO CL-10 (1932)
- Liore-et-Olivier LeO C.30 (1936)
- Liore-et-Olivier LeO C.301 (1938)
- Liore-et-Olivier LeO C.34 (1936)
- Mil Mi-1 "Hare" (1948)
- Yakovlev Yak-100 "Horse" (1948)

In addition, the early Sikorsky, Piasecki-Vertol, Bell, Hiller, Hughes
and many other US helicopters were flown during the 40s and early 50s.

My two cents,

Jorge

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 11:36:23 -0400
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: TRV:French diplomatic blunders

I read in the NY Times a few weeks ago a story which seems appropriate to
share at this time:
During the Kennedy administration, Charles de Gaulle demanded that all
American troops be removed from France immediately. To this, secretary of
state Dean Rusk replied: "Oh, would you like us to exhume the bodies from
the cemetaries too?"
Just an interesting anecdote.
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 11:02:40 EST
From:    Jorge Merino <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: Early Jets

Hello,

The german factory DFS has developed some rocket-powered prototypes during
WW-II. However, these aircraft didn't made any powered flight during the
conflict. These prototypes are:

- DFS-228 (One Walter 109-509A-1, 1500 kg rocket). It made many unpowered
  flights, launched from the top of a Dornier Do-217K bomber.
- DFS-346 (Two Walter 109-509, 2000 kg rockets). It has never flown during
  the war. The russians captured the prototype, and continued the development.
  In 1947, it reached 1100 km/h at 10000m.

The famed US Bell XS-1 (later redesignated X-1) made her maiden unpowered
flight on January 19, 1946. The first powered flight was made on December
12, 1946 (Launched from a modified B-29). On October 14, 1947, Charles "Chuck"
Yeager crossed for the first time the speed of sound.

My two cents,

Jorge

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 12:57:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: France & Reservations

Hey Guys,
The discussion about the Canadians and Brits having their reservations
revoked in France started out as an intelligent discussion.  It sounds to
me as if it is erupted into a flame war and I for one have had enough.

Please save your flame wars for e-mail.

Thank you.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 12:17:48 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: D-Day

Hello, Jim!

> Question: Why are the boulevards in Paris lined with big shady trees?
>
> Answer: The German Army hates to march in the sun.

    That's beautiful! :-)

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 12:22:57 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Weap: B-17 vs B-24

Hello, Steve!

> given to each. The answer is obvious on two points:
>         From whence came the majority of American citizens?
>         Which is closer to WASHINGTON DC?

    I highly recommend the book "Wedemeyer Reports" by General Albert
C. Wedemeyer who was a member of the War Plans Division of the
General Staff who was intimately involved in the recommendations and
studies made to decide this point. He discusses this in great detail,
and your two questions above did not enter into the discussion, I can
assure you.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 13:27:44 -0400
From:    Daniel Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Weap: B-17 vs B-24

On Wed, 6 Apr 1994, Ray Fairall wrote:
> Surely the point is that the Japanese posed a much lesser threat than the
> Germans. How about the notion that the Germans could have been developing

Doubt you would have said that if you were living in Oz in February 1942!

When MacArthur left Corregidor and escaped to Australia, he apparently
really expected to take command of a huge American army with which to
come to the aid of the Philippines. He was somewhat disheartened upon his
arrival in Darwin to learn that there were exactly 25,000 Americans in
Oz, and that not one of them was an infantryman!

As for the Australian combat forces, they totaled 7,000 men in Oz. (These
figures from Toland, BUT NOT IN SHAME.)

Cheers - Dan Ford   <e-mail: [email-masked]>
                    <postal: 433 Bay Road, Durham NH 03824 USA>
                    <voice/fax: +1-603-868-5850>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 12:22:14 CST
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re[2]: Re[2]: Weap: B-17 vs B-24

Hey--what about my original question--if I were an operational planner
in the 8th Air Force, what operational considerations of a B-17 and a
B-24 would make me look at a target, and think, "Hmmm--looks like a B-17
target to me," or "Hmmm, looks like a B-24 target to me." That was my
original question.  TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 12:26:48 CST
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: German uniforms

They are called collar tabs.  I would look up the information in my
references, however I am moving next week, and they are already packed
away in some nameless box in my apartment.  When I get settled into my
house I can pull them out and tell you, if you can wait a little while.
TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 12:31:12 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hs-294

Hello, Gudmundur!

Here goes with some more info and this time on the HS-294. I may make
some mistakes here as I am having to associate the proper English
idea here from the Japanese. There was no write-up on this; only
technical data.

                         HS-294

The HS-294 was an AUM. Weight at firing: 2170 kg. Weight of
propellant: 239kg. Length: 6.1 meters. Diameter: 0.76m. Range:4-14
km. Max Speed: 864 km/h. This missle was fired from an He-177.

That is all that I have on this one. If I run across anything else, I
will let you know, or there may someone else on this list who has
more detail than I at this time.

Will send more tomorrow.

All the best.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 13:53:42 -0400
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: D-DAY:FS

Let's all take a deep breath before posting anymore about the D-Day
vets being bumped by government officials.  Passions are starting
to run high and I don't want to see a flame-war started.  I ask that
everyone simply ignore any previous messages that have been inflamatory.
Thanks.
--
Joe Barone, WWII-L list-owner
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 18:33:13 +0000
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <[email-masked]>
Subject: Heinz Dittmar over mach 1? Me-163v-1

        Hello all

ONe thing has puzzled me for a while. I have here Guinnes Book of
Records that states that Captain Heinz Dittmar in the Luftwaffe flew the
Me-163V-1 at Peenemunde on October 2 1941 at the speed of 1004km/ph.

Did Dittmar then not reach mach 1 before mr. Yeager? Or is Mach one more
than 1000kmph?

Bye for now

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 14:15:01 CDT
From:    Steve Alvin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Weap: B-17 vs B-24

I missed the beginning of this thread because I've been on
"nomail" for  a while.  I think it needs to be remembered that
in the first year or so of the war, the Americans did not have
a first rate fighter in production!  The P-40 was basically it.
It was used in all theaters, not just in the Pacific.  The P-40
w2as an ok fighter, but it was not a match for the German fighters.
American even flew Spitfires received as "reverse Lend-lease" in
North Africa as a stop gap.

As more modern fighters were produced in numbers, the P-38, 47,
and 51 they were naturally sent to the front where the biggest
threat was evidence--the European theater.  The P-40 could continue
to serve adequately in the Pacific, especially in China, where
its ruggedness was important and because, with training, the P-40
could still fight the Japanese fighters.

Eventually, more modern fighters did serve in large numbers in
the Pacific and in China as well.  Also, don't forget that the
best heavy bomber of World War II served exclusively in the Pacific.

--
Steve Alvin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 14:10:15 -0400
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Re[2]: Weap: B-17 vs B-24

>Hey--what about my original question--if I were an operational planner
>in the 8th Air Force, what operational considerations of a B-17 and a
>B-24 would make me look at a target, and think, "Hmmm--looks like a B-17
>target to me," or "Hmmm, looks like a B-24 target to me." That was my
>original question.  TAS
>
>************************************************************************
>*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
>*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
>*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
>*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
>*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
>************************************************************************

That is exactly what happened in the raid on Ploesti (sp?) where range was
the main factor.  As in if the planners looked at anti-aircraft and enemy
fighter dispersion on the route to the target - I couldn't fathom a guess.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 12:39:44 PST
From:    "Jones, Scott T." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re[2]: D-DAY:FS

     Whoa Gang!

     This topic was a bit touchy to begin with but with Mr. Oaks
     introducing derogatory terms for the French and his anti-French
     opinions, I think it is best to take this into a personal mailing
     level or remove it altogether. I am a subscriber of this list so that
     I may learn about history and gain different viewpoints, not to add to
     my dictionary of insulting terms and comments! Granted, I am not the
     List manager, but I do think that common sense and good taste would
     dictate a different arena for this behavior. I, too, am not a fan of
     the French fighting history but this OPINION is not something which
     should be presented in an immature manner which resorts to name
     calling and insulting comments.

     I think we can all agree on the following:

     1) The people who had hotel reservations and were then bumped got a
     raw deal.

     2) The D-Day invaders fought on to liberate France from the German
     army after France fell to the Germans in the beginning of WWII.

     3) France is in Europe.

     4) The French have a different word for everything.

     Anything else should be presented in a responsible, sensible and FAIR
     manner or be taken out to the playground.

     Two more of my pennies in the pot...

     Scott Jones
     [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 15:43:54 -0400
From:    John Peterson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Heinz Dittmar over mach 1? Me-163v-1

>Date: Tue, 05 Apr 1994 18:33:13 +0000
>From: Gudmundur Helgason <[email-masked]>
>
>        Hello all
>
>ONe thing has puzzled me for a while. I have here Guinnes Book of
>Records that states that Captain Heinz Dittmar in the Luftwaffe flew the
>Me-163V-1 at Peenemunde on October 2 1941 at the speed of 1004km/ph.
>
>Did Dittmar then not reach mach 1 before mr. Yeager? Or is Mach one more
>than 1000kmph?
>
>Bye for now

The speed of sound in air at 20 C and 1 atm. is 343 m/s, or 1234.8 km/h,
or 767 mi/h.  Straight from an old Physics text.
Don't try to start any conspiracies against Yeager!! :-)

John Peterson
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 18:38:47 +0000
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <[email-masked]>
Subject: Chuck Yeagers Kills in wwii

Hello all

Can someone tell me how many kills mr. Yeager did score in wwii? He got
5 Me-109's in one day so he must have at least 10-15 kills (1 Me-262 and
Me-163 I think). So, how many did he score? Did he fight also in Korea?

Bye for now

Gudmundur J. Helgason                      E-mail:    [email-masked]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Patriotism is the arrogance of assuming that your country is the greatest
 one there is, simply because *you* were born there". :)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 16:34:37 -0500
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: German uniforms

> Real quick question:
>
>         What is the historical significance of the Roman numeral twos on
> the collars of German tunics?  I seem to recall some Prussian tradition
> dating back to the Napoleonic era but the details escape me (not to mention
> that I'm probably misremembering!).  Thanks.
> --
> Joe Barone

Hi Joe,

Here's the real quick answer:

The design is traceable back to Napoleonic times but they were
originally functional.  That function dates even further back to the
days of knights and castles.

Back when people were running around hacking at each other with swords
it became apparent that some protection was needed and so armor was
developed to deflect blows from various weapons.  The battle of
Agincourt proved that fancy armor was not the answer (especially to
the English longbow) and so armor had to be developed to protect
vulnerable areas where one might be struck with a sword while still
providing mobility needed for cavalry warfare of that time. It was
designed more for cavalry since the sword was their close combat
weapon during the 1500s to the 1870s.

The neck and shoulder protection from chain and plate armor gave way
to heavy wire embroidered uniform collars and thick epaulettes often
made of metal.  The old Prussian uniforms from the 1800 had that
characteristic design but it went all the way around the collar.

As time marched forward these details lost functionality and
with that became smaller and more decorative than functional.
In the German Army of 1914 these collar patches and epaulettes
became badges of rank and branch.  By 1939 they had shrunk still
further but maintained their traditional lineage and more recent
function.

US Army uniforms still have epaulets which can be traced to this
same heritage.

One funny thing about uniforms and the heavy wire embroidery,
Frederick the Great of Prussia developed sleeve insignias because he
was sick of seeing soldiers wipe their runny noses on their uniforms.

Cheers, Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 23:41:39 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA: Degrelle is dead

Friday, 1 April 1994, Leon Jose de Ramirez Reina, alias Leon Degrelle,
former Belgian collaborator, died in Malaga, Spain, aged 87.

Before WWII, Degrelle was the leader of the extremist right-wing 'Rex'
movement, that won 21 seats in the Belgian Upper House and 8 in the
senate in the 1936 elections. In 1939, Rex lost all but 5 seats. When
Germany attacked Belgium in May 1940, Degrelle was arrested and sent to
Spain; later he was liberated by the Germans from his prison in Caen.

In 1941, after the German attack on the USSR, Degrelle encouraged his
followers fight with the Germans, in the SS-unit Wallonie. Degrelle
himself became SS-Sturmbahnfuhrer and was awarded the Iron Cross and the
Knight's Cross.

In 1944, Degrelle was sentenced, by default, to death for his
collaboration. He escaped from Norway to Spain, that received him well
enough. Spain refused to grant him asylum in 1946, but he nevertheless
acquired the Spanich nationality, and a new name, in 1954. He lived in
hiding until 1975, when he was seen at Franco's funeral.

In 1964, the period of limitation of Degrelle's sentence was extended by
ten years, In 1974, a Royal Decree was signed that declared Degrelle
persona non grata -- an unique event in Belgian law.  In 1991, Degrelle
was convicted in Spain for denying the holocaust.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 16:51:47 -0500
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: TRV:  DeGaulle's faux pas

Being given a tour of the heroic Stalingrad battlefield
  memorial, DeGaulle surveyed the panorama from Mamaev Kurgan
  (the old Tartar hill/cemetery) and exclaimed:

    My God!  What a people!

With great Soviet pride, his guide thanked him for that tribute,
  but then DeGaulle said:

    Non!  Non!  I meant the GERMANS!  ... that they could have
      come so far!

He was hustled away, appropriately.  :-)

Lou Coatney, Western Illinois University

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 00:14:41 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hs-293

On Mon, 4 Apr 1994, Terry Moore wrote:

> Great to hear from you again, and hope all is well with you.

Thanks, Terry. Well, I have a cold. April here in Belgium means that you
have sunshine on monday, heavy rain on tuesday and hailstorms on wednesday
--- at least it is varied.

> > BTW, after all this talk about German guided weapons... Few people are
> > aware that the USA also had a guided weapon program at that time. At least
> > two were used operationally; GB-4 entered service in July 1944 and the
> > 'Azon' bomb destroyed the Pyinmana bridge in Burma, in December 1944.
>
>     Outside of you and one other, I think, that is the first I had
> heard of our efforts in this area. Do you have more info on this that
> could easily be posted?

Well, a little bit. There was a series of articles on the development of
AAMs in Air International, beginning in December 1986. There also is a
brief historical overview in the books of the inevitable Bill Gunston,
'Aircraft Armament' and 'Rockets and Missiles'.

Development of air-to-air missiles in the USA began in May 1941.
Development was slow, because of lack of interest and rivalry between Army
and Navy. But there were several impressive results, and a large number of
projects, indicating that the missile development probably suffered from a
lack of concentration of efforts too.

The least sophisticated were the BQs. The BQ series of the USAAF were
remotely-controlled aircraft, loaded with explosives; take off was, in the
case of the BQ-7 and BQ-8, done by pilots that baled out afterwards.  The
BQ-1 and BQ-2 were designed for this role by Fleetwings, and the BQ-4,
BQ-5 and BQ-6 by Interstate. The Interstate aircraft was also used by the
USN as the TDR, and was used by the USN in some attacks in the Pacific.
Other aircraft in the BQ-series were conversions of 'normal' aircraft:
the BQ-3 was a Fairchild AT-21, the BQ-7 a B-17 and the BQ-8 a B-24.  The
BQ-7 was used in combat from summer 1944 onwards, and about 27 were
converted; there were eight operational missions.  Results were poor; the
BQ-7 carried no less than 9072kg of explosives, but was vulnerable and
unreliable.  The BQ-8 was even more ambitious, with a 'warload' of
11340kg, but required two aircraft to control it.  Only two BQ-8s were
built.  One mission on 12 August 1944 failed when the aircraft exploded
before the crew had left it (killing Joseph Kennedy, the older brother of
JFK); the other hit a German airfield on 3 September 1944 --- the only
successful allied operation of this nature during WWII.

The JB or 'Jet Bomb' program was created as a reaction on the appeareance
of the German V-1 in 1944.  The V-1 itself was copied as the JB-2, and 330
were delivered for use against Japan, but none saw action.  The USAAF also
experimented with air-launching of the JB-2.  After the war the USN fired
many navalized JB-2s, 'Loons', from two submarines.  The JB-1 was a design
of Northrop, a flying wing with two small General Electric jet engines in
the center section, and carrying two 907kg bombs.  JB-3 'Tiamat' was
unique in the series because it was intended for air-to-air use, with a
rocket engine, a semi-active radar seeker, and a fragmentation warhead. It
shaped like a fuel tank with three large tail fins.  JB-4 was a pulse-jet
powered missile, JB-5 and JB-6 were wingless rockets, JB-7 was a pilotless
bomber, and JB-10 was the final flying-wing bomb made by Northrop.  The
whole program was halted in March 1946.

Less ambitious was the GB series of 'Guided Bombs', development of which
began in 1940.  The GBs were winged glider bombs.  In the early years of
the war only the GB-1 was produced, essentially a 907kg bomb with wings, a
simple radio control and an autopilot.  The GB-1 was used operationally in
its _unguided_ form; the only advantage it had was that the bomber could
avoid the heavy 'flak'.  About 1000 were dropped above Germany, but with
very poor accuracy.  The GB-4 was far more advanced, with a vidicon camera
for the guidance.  It became operational in July 1944. The experimental
CEP of 61m was not achieved in combat, because the bombs were not handled
with enough care.  GB-8 had an infrared seeker, GB-8 was remotely
controlled, GB-12 steered on light contrast, GB-13 homed on a flare, and
GB-14 had active radar homing; but none of these entered service.

The VB series were free-fall weapons, in contrast with the winged GB
series. Early models in this series were based on existing bombs, with
guidance added. The only that saw widespread wartime was VB-1, called Azon
because it had AZimuth ONly guidance. It was based on a 454kg M-44 bomb,
with a radio receiver, an octogonal tail ring with rudders, a gyro to
stabilize it with the right side up, and a tracking flare.  It was ready
in early 1944.  The 8th AF rejected it -- because it considered that the
bombing run would be too long, increasing losses -- and Azon entered
service with the 15th AF in Italy first.  Azon was claimed to be 29 times
more accurate than unguided bombs.  It was used mainly against viaducts
and bridges, and 12 to 15 percent of the dropped bombs hit the target.
VB-2 had similar guidance as VB-1, but was based on a 907kg bomb. There
were many later developments, but none entered service in WWII.  The final
VB-13 Razon (named so because it had Range and Azimuth control) was a
5443kg bomb, 6.4m long, that was used in large numbers in Korea.

An interesting weapon with a protracted development was 'Bat', a winged
bomb with active radar homing. The program began in 1941 under the name
'Dragon', and was intended against surface ships. In 1942 Dragon became
'Pelican', with a depth charge as weapons load, but in 1943 switched back
to attack on surface targets. It became 'Bat' in 1944; it was called that
way because it steered on reflected radar pulses. Bat had a slightly swept
wing with a span of 3.05m, and weighed 853kg. It was carried by the PB4Y-2
Privateer and entered service in May 1945, sinking several Japanese ships.
It was -- with a modified radar -- also effective against bridges. A
similar weapon, Gargoyle, never entered service.

Another important program was the 'Gorgon', a very diverse series of Navy
missiles, mostly AAMs. The devices in this series had different
configuration and engines; that included ramjets, 9.5-in turbojet engines,
and rocket engines.  Guidance was by radio command link, and some Gorgons
had a TV camera in the nose.  The camera was of little use, because it was
impossible to see the target in time to steer the missile to it. The
Gorgon program, proposed as early as 1937, continued until 1953, but none
entered service.

A SAM project that had a brief life was 'Little Joe', started in summer
1944 by the USN to create a weapon against the Kamikaze attacks.  It was a
550kg rocket, with a blunt appereance, large cruciform tail fins and small
canards, a rocket engine, and a 45kg warhead with a proximity fuse.  It
was cancelled in February 1945.  Developed at the same time, 'Little Lark'
was twice as large and more streamlined, and was continued after the war.
The achievements of Little Joe and Little Lark were very limited, and thus
the Navy gave the development of shipboard SAMs top priority in late 1944,
starting a very successful R&D program.  The first ramjet powered missile
in the 'Talos' project flew in June 1945 and was 'fashioned from the
exhaust piping of a P-47'.  Talos entered service in 1958.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 18:59:32 MET-1
From:    Bognar Attila <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: SPECULATION: No WWII for USA without Pearl Harbor?

I absolutely agree with Dan.

Let me add one more thing, though. As far as my understanding goes the
US would have had to enter the war if Japan - for whatever reason -
had not attacked. (Let's not talk about what FDR had thought about
Pearl Harbor!)
See, the point is that the US had become the leading power of the
world after the WW-I. Europe had lost this role and the US took it
over, it's just that neither Europe (esp. Britain and France) nor the
US did understand it.
But take this: who helped Europe to stand up again and recover from
the losses of the war? The US did. Home politics denied the chance
from Wilson, he had to send the troops home, for Senate said: OK,
enough of that, let's bring the boys back home and mind our own
business. The spirit of isolation prevailed, as we all know.
Still, economically the US dominated. And when WW-II came FDR saw the
opportunity to make political use of the leading role.
Let's just call the spade a spade: He had to enter the war to make
his nation the leader of not only world economy but also politics.
Without the second he certainly would have lost the first.

--------------------------------

> > > to the Internet, has asked me to post this question: "If the Japanese
> > > had not attacked Pearl Harbor, but went after the Dutch West Indies and
> > > Malaysia instead (but not the Philippines) would the US have still
> > > entered the war, and if so, when?"
> >
> But does the question make sense? The Japanese were golden as long as
> they stuck to China and Indochina, but there was no way they could invade
> Malaya without a shooting war with British forces, or the Dutch Indies
> without a shooting war with the Dutch colonial government that would
> bring in the British. (And it was the Indies that the Japanese needed
> above all else, for their oil fields.)
>
> Looking at the map, one understands how risky war would have been in
> Malaya and the Indies with a huge American presence in the Philippines.
> Just as northern Indochina served as an unsinkable aircraft carrier for
> the Japanese in their efforts to subdue the Chinese government, so would
> the Phillipines have served as an unsinkable aircraft carrier for the
> British and Dutch. And no question that we would have provided that sort
> of assistance, just as we were assisting Britain at the time.
>
> So I think that the Japanese options were either: 1) withdraw from
> Indochina and from mainland China, or 2) destroy the European forces in
> Southeast Asia, prevent the Americans from coming to their defense, and
> stoke up on Indonesian oil.
>
> Put another way, the alternatives were natioanl humilation or a suicidal
> war. How many governments would have opted for humiliation?
>
> Cheers - Dan Ford   <e-mail: [email-masked]>
>                     <postal: 433 Bay Road, Durham NH 03824 USA>
>                     <voice/fax: +1-603-868-5850>
>

All the best,

Attila  [email-masked]

PS.: Look at my new address, please.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Apr 1994 22:51:43 EDT
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor,
         Marist Coll" <[email-masked]>
Subject: NOST: 50 years ago this week

I have obtained two calendars, one from the International Churchill
Society and one from the US Department of Defense which highlights
some of the events of WWII. As time permits, I will post some of
these events:

Fifty Years ago this week:

3 April - Allied bombs disable Tirpitz. (c)
4 April - British Empire casualties exceed 667,000. De Gaulle assumes
single control of Free French. (c)
5 April - US Army Air Corps bombers raid Ploesti, Rumania. (d)
6 April - British Communists purged from D-Day planning. (c)
7 April - Churchill addresses senior officers on D-Day plans. (c)
8 April - War policy against Japan discussed at Chequers (c)
9 April - Churchill dines with Polish Prime Minister (c)
Sources: (c) = Churchill society; (d) = Defense Dept.

Note- This was originally sent on April 3, 1994, but since I did not
see it on the list, and my helpdesk here at Marist indicated to me that
our Internet connection was wobbly for the last few days, I am reposting
-sorry if it is a duplicate for some.

Jonah Triebwasser
Adjunct Instructor
Marist College
Dyson Building (Adult Education)
Poughkeepsie, New York12601
Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
E-Mail: [email-masked]

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 4 Apr 1994 to 5 Apr 1994
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