Subject: WWII-L Digest - 6 Apr 1994 to 7 Apr 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 1994 00:00:25 -0400

There are 51 messages totalling 1658 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. help
  2. Re[2]: Weap: B-17 vs B-24
  3. EDU: Graf Zeppelin
  4. VET: Search for German vet by name? (2)
  5. IMHO (2)
  6. INF: USAAF 7 APR 44
  7. Manny Klette and the 91st BG
  8. Re[2]: INF: German uniforms (5)
  9. 84th Infantry Division - The Railsplitters
 10. GEN: Article on BGen Scott (3)
 11. RCAF (4)
 12. Re[2]: Re[2]: INF: German uniforms
 13. TRV Children in camps (3)
 14. INF: German II collar tabs. (2)
 15. WWI: Mine Obituary
 16. Wasserfall
 17. Chuck Yeagers Kills in wwii
 18. Hs-293
 19. WWI-L PLEASE READ
 20. TRV "Joy Division" - Children in camps (3)
 21. WEAP:V1 as nuke
 22. <No subject given>
 23. vietnam war (2)
 24. USAAF Regulations Question (2)
 25. INF: Great Lakes Aircraft Carriers
 26. Seek Bowater Corp. Archives
 27. request for information (2)
 28. Heinz Dittmar over mach 1? Me-163v-1
 29. WWII air show in Baton Rouge, LA
 30. Moscow, May:last chance
 31. SPAIN'S FRANCO AND "K
 32. Pacific-inferior equipment?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 17:25:43 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: help

>
> Please anybody, I might be ignorant but let me know what on Earth
> is IMHO standing for?

In My Humble Opinion

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Apr 1994 22:22:19 -0700
From:    Bill Shatzer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Weap: B-17 vs B-24

>
>The answer may be obvious to some, but not to me:
>Why weren't B-29s used in the ETO?
>
>BTW (by the way), in answer to a separate question
>IMHO means, IMHO, In My Humble Opinion.
>
>
>
> *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*> Jim Benn  [[email-masked]] <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=*
> |-=[        Auto-Graphics, Inc.       ]=[      /~~)       /~~)           ]=-|
> |-=[        8 West Main Street        ]=[     (__(_UTO - (__/RAPHICS     ]=-|
> |-=[        Niantic, CT  06357        ]=[              .___/             ]=-|
> *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*>  PHONE: 800-733-6939 = FAX: 203-691-0183  <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=*
>
>
The B-29's weren't needed.  The B-29's principal asset was its extreme long
range and by the time the B-29 became operational, the USAAF was bombing
German targets with B-25's and B-26's.  Indeed, I think the B-29 was
reserved exclusively for the Pacific even before the allies captured the
bases in Italy and France.  After all the distance from Manila to
Tokyo is almost 1900 miles while Berlin is less than 600 miles from
London.

--
Bill Shatzer  - [email-masked] - [email-masked]
"Please don't honk as you pass me on the information superhighway;
I'm pedaling as fast as I can!"

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 01:27:47 CDT
From:    Steve Alvin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: EDU: Graf Zeppelin

Graf Zepplin was launched 12/08/38 by the Deutsche Werke at
Kiel.  Displacement was to be 23,200 tons, dimensions 820x88.5x
18.5 ft.  She was origianlly planned to carry 12 Ju87's and 30
Me109's modified for carrier use (The Me109T was built in small
numbers), later this was amended to 28 Ju87's and 12 Me109's.
Work was suspended in April, 1940, recommenced in July, but
construction was slow due to production difficulties with the
catapults, arresting gear, and the general dis-interest Hitler
had for the surface fleet.  Work finally stopped in 1943.  The
ship was scuttled at Settin on 4/24/45, the hull was raised in
1947 and towed to Swinemunde.  She capsized while being towed
to Lenningrad and was broken up in 1948/49.

The hull of a sister ship was completed to the armored deck before
work stopped and the hull broken up on the stocks.  Some printed
sources give her the name Peter Strasser, but there is no
evidence to support this.

--
Steve Alvin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 01:43:18 -0500
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: VET: Search for German vet by name?

Hey -- Want a really hard project that can only be considered a longshot
under the best of situations?

Did the Luftwaffe during WWII ever maintain a simple roster of all its
pilot or aircrew personnel?  Basically, I wonder if a list of names may
exist with any information that may assist in cross-checking and locating
individuals, their history or family.

The reason I ask is that we are in possession of a German flight suit from
WWII.  By tradition, the last name (and last name only) of the owner is
sewn into the suit.

The last name of the person who owned this flightsuit is "Brohm."

I'm not well versed in German names, but that doesn't strike me as a common
name.  I could be wrong, of course.

However, I'd be interested in beginning the difficult task of seeing if I can
track down the service record(s) of anyone with the last name Brohm.

Told ya this would be a doozy.  :)   Anyone with German connections and
research in this area know if such a thing is possible with so little info?

--
Robert J. Granvin                                             [email-masked]
University of Minnesota, School of Statistics
         "I'm my father?  I'm my mother?  I'm chipped beef on toast?"

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 17:42:06 SST
From:    LEE YU JIN <[email-masked]>
Subject: IMHO

>Honest?  I always thought it meant "Humble".  Now there's a debate for you!
>:-)
>
>Theron P. Keller
>Logicon, Inc.
>P.O. Box 1420
>Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
>[email-masked]

I'll second that!

Lee Yu Jin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 07:00:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USAAF 7 APR 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
FRIDAY, 7 APRIL 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  F-7, Consolidated Liberator
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 8 B-24s dispatched to destroy a convoy,
believed SE of Matsuwa Island, Kurile Islands, turn back due to engine,
navigation and weather difficulties. A flight of F-7As of the 2d
Photographic Charting Squadron, 1st Photographic Charting Group, 311th
Photographic Wing (Mapping and Charting), arrives in the Aleutian Islands;
its mission is mapping of the Kurile Islands. The squadron is based at
Peterson Field, Colorado Springs, Colorado and sends detachments to various
parts of the world to photo map.

  CARIBBEAN (Sixth Air Force): 74th and 397th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy),
VI Bomber Command, move from Guatemala City, Guatemala and the Galapagos
Islands respectively to Rio Hato, Panama with B-24s.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 20+ P-51s and B-25s hit gun
positions at Mawlu; throughout the Mogaung Valley 100+ fighter-bombers and 2
B-25s hit numerous targets including fuel and ammunition stores near Manywet,
supplies and a railroad station at Myitkyina, supplies and radio station at
Sahmaw, the Kamaing area, bridges at Nsopzup and supply dumps W of Mogaung;
30+ of the fighter-bombers carry out ground support missions at Shaduzup.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 7 P-40s strafe 3 barges and several junks at
Saint John Island, China, leaving them burning. 2 B-24s on a sweep from Hong
Kong to Formosa claim a large river boat and a small freighter sunk and 2
other freighters damaged; 1 B-24 is lost. 4 P-40s attack a large
concentration of small vessels at Haiphong, French Indochina, sinking at
least 4.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (XX Bomber Command): HQ 462d Bombardment Group (Very
Heavy) arrives at Piardoba, India from the US.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Italy, 400+ B-17s and B-24s
attack marshalling yards; the B-17s bomb Treviso; the B-24s hit Mestre and
Bologna; almost 100 P-38s provide escort; P-47s fly a sweep over the Gorizia-
Udine area; the bombers and fighters claim almost 20 aircraft shot down.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium bombers attack
bridges, tracks and a viaduct at Attigliano, Ficulle, Certaldo, Pontassieve
and Incisa in Valdarno, and hit Prato marshalling yard; light bombers hit
an ammunition dump; Ausonia, Pignataro Interamna, San Apollinare and
Terracina are bombed by P-40s along with a dump and several gun positions SE
of Rome; P-47s also hit bridges and trucks in this same area and attack the
Empoli marshalling yard while A-36s hit gun emplacements, train and tracks in
the Orvieto area and vicinity and approaches to the Montalto di Castro
bridge.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-25s from Tarawa Atoll hit
Maloelap Atoll, rearm at Majuro Atoll, and bomb Jaluit Atoll on the return
flight.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 50+
fighter-bombers pound supply areas at Ratawul; 9 B-25s hit Talili Bay, 11
bomb Vunakanau Airfield and 13 blast Tobera Airfield; 6 B-25s maintain night
heckling of the Rabaul area. On Bougainville Island, 4 P-40s bomb pillboxes
near the Reini River while 2 B-24s bomb Monoitu Mission.
  HQ 5th Bombardment Group (Heavy) moves from Munda, New Georgia Island to
Momote Airfield, Los Negros Island, Admiralty Islands.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, B-25s, A-20s
and P-39s hit villages, barges, a supply area, and coastal road in areas
around Madang, Tadji, Bogia, and Uligan Harbor; and B-24s bomb Langgoer and
Wakde Island. Other B-25s bomb barracks at Penfoei, Timor Island.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 06:58:53 CDT
From:    jesse carnes <[email-masked]>
Subject: Manny Klette and the 91st BG

OK guys ;

Due that my twin cannot find my envelope from Frank Donofrio of the Memphis
Belle group, it is stated to me that I will have the info. in about a week ...
as my twin and his wife are moving and things are in a disarray.

I will not post any more things on this until I post the REAL stuff next week
sometime -- hopefully -- when I get the info. from Bobby.

Deepest regrets guys for the inconvenience ;

Jesse Carnes
LSU
BR, LA
[email-masked]
-------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 08:09:21 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: INF: German uniforms

On Wed, 6 Apr 1994 17:50:41 -0500 WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA said:
>Rommel even wore British dust goggles on his visor hat - where will it
>all end....... :-D

Quick curiosity:  did Rommel continue to do so after leaving Africa?

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 07:17:22 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 84th Infantry Division - The Railsplitters

Hello, Mike!

Here goes with the first installment of this info on the 84th.

The 84th Inf. Div was activated on 15 Oct 1942 at Camp Howtze, Texas
and moved to the La Maneuvre Area on 17 Sep 1943 where it particpated
in the III Army No 4 Louisiana Maneuvers. It then moved to Camp
Claiborne, Louisiana on 16 Nov 1943 and staged at Camp Kilmer, New
Jersey on 5 Sep 1944. It departed New York Port of Entry on 20 Sep
1944 and arrived in England on 4 Oct 1944. It landed in France on 1
Nov 1944, crossed Holland on 5 Nov 1944 and entered Germany on 17 Nov
1944. It crossed into Belgium on 21 Dec 1944 and returned to Holland
on 3 Feb 1945 and Germany on 7 Feb 1945. It returned to New York Port
of Entry on 20 Jan 1946 and was inactivated at Camp Kilmer, NJ on 21
Jan 1946.

Campaigns: Rhineland, Ardennes-Alsace, Central Europe. In August
1945, it was located at Salzwedel, Germany.

Overseas' Wartime Assignments:

Ninth Army- 10 Sep 1944
III Corps-21 Sep 1944
XIX Corps-4 Nov 1944
XIII Corps-8 Nov 1944
British 30 Corps (attached)-11 Nov 1944
XIII Corps-23 Nov 1944
XVIII (A/B) Corps (attached)-20 Dec 1944
VII Corps-21 Dec 1944
XVIII Corps (A/B)-21 Dec 1944
XIII Corps-3 Feb 1945

Tomorrow I will post to you all the commanding generals' names, and a
combat narrative. Do you want a table of organization? I can supply
that with no problem, if you need it. Just wanted to know.

Hope this helps.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 12:33:59 CET
From:    "LTC Donnell, Doug" <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN: Article on BGen Scott

The following is an excerpt from the USAF Airman magazine that I thought
might be of interest to the list:

Introducing retired BGen Robert Lee Scott Jr., who these days can be found
working at the Museum of Aviation, Robins AFB, GA.  He may not appear
your typical hero, but then, he's never been your typical anything.

Scott flew with Maj Gen Claire L Chennault and the famed "Flying Tigers"
in Burma, China, from 1941-1942 and he said he was credited with 22 kills.
Chennault referred to him as a "one-man Air Force".  An accomplished author
as well as pilot, the 85-year old wrote the bestseller "God is My Co-Pilot,"
which was first printed in 1943.  More recently, he published a second
big hit, "The Day I Owned the Sky."

"I've had people ask me if I had a co-author for my books," Scott said,
in his heavy southern accent. "I tell them, 'Yes suh.  The same guy
who served as my co-pilot all those years -- God.'"

Looking for a teasing grin or peering under his bushy eyebrows for a hing
of humor in those bright blue eyes, noe comes.  Suddenly the realizations
hits. . .to Scott, "God Is My Co-Pilot" is more than just a catch title
for his book.  It's a phrase he lives by.

He recalls how the title came to him.

"It was Oct 25, 1942," he began.  "We had just engaged 20 enemy aircraft and
shot down 19.  During the exchange, I heard something rattle behind me,
and then it felt like someone hit me in the back with their fist.
Japanese bullets had struck the armor plate in my P-40 cockpit, and one
bullet hit the Plexiglas.

"The impact of the bullets drove some Plexiglas into the back of my head
and slammed a rivet from the 5/8-inch armor plate into my back.  I'd
never been impressed by a pint of blood.  But a pint of blood looks
like a hell of a lot in a cockpit -- especially when it's yours.

"When it was all over, I made it back to home base later than the rest
of our squadron.  We had taken cover inside a cave, and a missionary,
who served as the doctor there, worked on my wounds.  Somebody commented
that I came back alone, alive.  The word 'alone' struck me as funny, and
I replied, 'I'm a fighter pilot -- I'm always alone.'"

When Scott said this, everybody got quiet.  He could hear the water
dripping in the cave.  The missionary/doctor walked up with the last
rivet head in his tweezers and dropped it into a metal box.  The
rivet clanged loudly.

"Then hat missionary looks at me and says, 'Oh no son, you're never alone
or you wouldn't come baack at all,'" Scott asid, nodding in agreement with
the revelation.

Sorry for the typos -- there's a bit more, which I'll add later when I
get a break.              Doug Donnell

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 08:30:22 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: RCAF

I too am impressed with the class of the Canadians. I remember how they
risked their own embassy sheltering U.S. citizens in Iran a few short years
ago.

Should I have the money, I would dearly love to visit old Quebec with my
daughter. I have always wanted to see the old fort that Washington sent
Benidict Arnold (A native of this town of Norwich CT)!

Ah, though I remain poor, my respect for the Canadians is legion.

Let us remember, and not have to be constantly reminded via bravado.

                                                                Steve

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 07:43:22 CST
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re[2]: Re[2]: INF: German uniforms

Bill's correct---I knew there was a distinction between a Stabsfeldwebel
and other NCO's--the cord is it.

Tresse--that's right.  One more week until I unpack-----urrrgggh.

TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 08:28:00 -0400
From:    JOHN NEMETH 404-347-4216 <[email-masked]>
Subject: TRV Children in camps

          A few years ago I bought a tape by a band called "Joy Division".
          A friend of mine told me that the Nazis would organize children
          in concentration camps into groups called "Joy Divisions" (A form
          of doublespeak if you will).  In the approx 8 years since he's
          told me this, I haven't found ANY reference to this.  Is my
          friend crazy or am I?  You can just email me privately.

          Thanks!
          John N.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 08:48:40 EDT
From:    Richard Kaplan <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: German II collar tabs.

Well I'll muddle the waters even more; though I don't profess to know squat
about German military uniforms except I like the Luftwaffe winter coat, and the
U-Boat crushed white cap :)

In looking through a copy of Manchester's American Ceasar, there is a photo of
then Chief of Staff MacArthur watching Austrian Army manuevers in 1932.  In the
photo, Mac is standing next to an Austrian officer who has the same horizontal
IIs on his left collar tab.  Incidentally the officer could be a dead ringer
for Eric von Stroheim.

                                        Richard Kaplan
                                        Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 08:51:50 -0500
From:    "W.C. DIVENS" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: RCAF

>I too am impressed with the class of the Canadians. I remember how they
>risked their own embassy sheltering U.S. citizens in Iran a few short years
>ago.

Indeed...but one group that is also often ignored, probably due to
all the negative publicity in this era of 'political correctness over
historical study' is the South African contingent of the Commonwealth
forces.  Were there not a number of South Africans in the RAF during the
Battle of Britain?  Were not their contributions worthy of praise too?

Bill
[email-masked]

Aside:

Does anyone know if there were any black regiments recruited from the
Commonwealth's African states?  It is pretty clear that indigineous
native troops were recrutied in the Pacific theater by the British
Commonwealth, but what of Africa?  In one of the VICTORY AT SEA tapes
they show a scene where there is a victory parade and there are a
large number of black troops marching.  Any info on this?

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 08:06:17 CST
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: Article on BGen Scott

I met Gen Bob Scott at Warner Robbins AFB in December.  He lives in
Macon, GA.  He came in and gave a talk about his experiences in China.
He wanted to be a fighter pilot all his life, and ended up flying
transports to China, where he hooked up with Gen Chenault.  He talked
Chenault into letting him fly fighters, and his legend took off.

He published God Is My Co-pilot during the war, and the movie was
produced shortly thereafter.  The Museum of Aviation at Warner Robbins
has a number of relics of "God Is my Co-pilot", to include movie
marque's used for the opening--although I believe they may be
reproductions.

As for Bob Scott, he is alive and well.  He has a heavy southern accent,
and it took some effort to understand him.  He seems to love being in
the spotlight, and likes to tell some tall tales, but all or most of
them are true.  We thought we were going to have lunch with him, however
he wasn't feeling too well and left earlier than expected.  He is very
tall, and lanky, and overall a great guy.

The shop located at the Museum of Aviation at Warner Robbins has a
section of "God Is My Co-Pilot" items for sale.  I have an autographed
copy of the book, which will sit proudly next to John Ausland's book, my
Memphis Belle Book autographed by Bill Winchell, and my autographed copy
of Platoon Leader by James McDonald.

TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 09:19:54 -0500
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: INF: German uniforms

>         Thanks, Bill. That was everything I would have said if I'd had
> my references handy (toungue-in-cheek).
>         I didn't think I was wrong, but there are times when it's
> better not to fire until you've got your guns run out.
>
>                                                         Mick.

Hi Mick,

I'm sure you are not wrong.  There is rarely one singular reason for
any given uniform feature.  I had not heard that about preventing
buttons from wearing through.  I bet it would on those old uniforms.
During the 20th century those details were more decorative than
functional (particularly WWII German uniforms).

By WWII the only uniforms the Germans wore that had buttons or cuff
decoration were police formations, parade dress army and kriegsmarine
uniforms and formal diplomatic apparel.  Elite units had cuff
titles and foreign volunteers had sleeve shields indicating the
unit's nationality.  The only function of these accoutrements was
either to denote membership in an elite unit (like the
Grossdeutschland, Afrika Korps, Das Reich etc.) or as awards for
participation in certain campaigns (like Spanien 36/39, Kreta,
Afrika, Metz 1944 and Kurland).

Cheers, Bill Huber  /  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 10:19:44 -0400
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: RCAF

>THE ROYAL CANADIAN AIR FORCE HAS A RECORD THAT ANYONE WHO IS CONVERSANT
>WITH WORLD WAR II REALIZES IS SOMETHING TO BE DAMNED PROUD OF AND YOU PEOPLE
>PISS ME OFF BECAUSE YOU NEVER MENTION IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>YOU GOTTA TOOT YOUR OWN HORN OR YOU WILL BE RUN OVER!!!
>
>Well, here is one Yank who is lifting the lid of secrecy and letting the
>world (or at least this list) know that the RCAF was a major force in WWII
>and it is about time they got the credit they deserve!
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
>|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
>|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
>|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
>-------------------------------------------------------------------

In my duties at working our museums annual "Wings of Eagle" airshow, I have had
the honor of getting to meet and know several members of the Canadian
Warbird Heritage Museum from Hamilton, Ontario and all I can say is that
are on one       group of exceptional individuals.  The Canadians have
always seemed to work with the general public in a quiet and proud manner.
I am not alone in KNOWING that without the Candians attending our airshow
and letting us Americans know of the
proud history (with a great deal of class) that our airshow whould be
nowhere as near succesful that is is.  I would encourage anyone traveling
within driving distance of Hamilton to stop in and see their fine
collection of warbirds.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka                                         National Warplane Museum
Cornell University                                 Geneseo, New York
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 15:47:34 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: WWI: Mine Obituary

Ladies and Gentlemen!

apologies for this non-WW2 post - I am migrating future WWI stuff to
the MILHIST list in the absence of a dedicated WWI list - but just to
close off the discussion we had on mining activities during the Great War,

I came across an obituary in the Daily Telegraph 24/03/94===>

[i've posted this already on MILHIST before remembering that the original
discussion was on WWII-L]

Joe Murray, aged 97, one of the last surviving sailors to have fought with
the Royal Naval Division in the trenches of Gallipoli and the Western Front.

In 1915, Murray was serving with the Hood battalion in the Gallipoli
campaign, landing on W beach, Cape Helles on 28th April. The Western Front
style stalemate soon set in with added problems of heat, dust, flies, a chronic
shortage of drinking water as well as enemy fire. As a former Durham miner,
Murray was one of those engaged in mining activities under Turkish trenches.
Countermining carried out by the Turks resulted in Murray being buried alive
 together with another man. Given up for dead, they dug themselves out
65 hours later using their bare hands and Murray's seaman's knife.

Born in 1896, Murray, a miner's son went down the pit aged 12
doing a 10 hour day for 1 penny an hour.. On October 6th 1914, he
completed his shift and walked 8 miles to enlist into the Navy,
following his brother who was already serving.

He also took part in the last stages of the Somme campaign, being
a machine gunner in the attack on Beaumont Hamel.

He published 2 books, Gallipoli As I Saw It (1965), and Call To Arms -
>From Gallipoli To The Western Front (1980). They remain among the most
poignant memoirs of life in the trenches during WWI

Steve Baldwin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 09:54:27 -0500
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: VET: Search for German vet by name?

> Did the Luftwaffe during WWII ever maintain a simple roster of all its
> pilot or aircrew personnel?  Basically, I wonder if a list of names may
> exist with any information that may assist in cross-checking and locating
> individuals, their history or family.

Hi Robert,

If such a list exists I would give my .... well I'd give a lot to get
it. :-)

I may be able to help you though.  There are a number of references
that list the officer corps of the various services called
"Ranglisten" and "Dienstalterslisten".  Part of my hobby is to
collect these references because as a uniform collector it is very
gratifying to be able to cross check items in my collection against
published references.

Unfortunately, the Luftwaffe is a very difficult branch to research.
Until recently the only Rangliste that had been published covered
only general officers but thanks to Akira I have been fortunate
enough to get ahold of a Rangliste that lists all Luftwaffe officers
down to the rank of Hauptmann as of 1945.   The bad thing about these
type of reference is that if the man in question was killed in 1944
he will not appear in the 1945 rangliste unless it has a "in memory"
section and most do not.

Another and perhaps better approach would be to check against lists
of those who won high awards as books have been published listing the
recipients of the Knights Cross, German Cross, Ehrenpokal (Honor
goblet) and others.

> The reason I ask is that we are in possession of a German flight suit from
> WWII.  By tradition, the last name (and last name only) of the owner is
> sewn into the suit.

That is a common thing to find in German uniforms and always a bonus
for collector/researchers like myself.  Sometimes you can get first
name if the item is tailor made and you are lucky but mostly all you
find is the last name if anything.

> The last name of the person who owned this flightsuit is
> "Brohm."

I will see what I can find out.

> I'm not well versed in German names, but that doesn't strike me as a common
> name.  I could be wrong, of course.

There may be a few.  Did the suit have any rank insignia on the
sleeve or evidence of award loops etc.  Any details like that can
make the search simpler.

> However, I'd be interested in beginning the difficult task of seeing if I can
> track down the service record(s) of anyone with the last name Brohm.

Checking books like mine are the best way to start because if he is
listed you can get details like first name and sometimes unit
assigned.  The problem you run into with researching Luftwaffe
members or Germans in general is that Germany has very strict privacy
laws.  Another problem, particularly with Luftwaffe guys, is that
most of the Luftwaffe records were destroyed in the bombing of the
Berlin personnel center during the war.  90% of Luftwaffe personnel
records were destroyed.  A third problem is that the archives
generally require full name and birthdate plus a statement that the
individual being researched is either dead or believed to be dead.
In your case they may comply since you represent an institution and
if the guy is still alive you may be able to reunite him with the
flightsuit in a ceremony at your museum.  They would probably go for
something like that.

> Told ya this would be a doozy.  :)   Anyone with German connections and
> research in this area know if such a thing is possible with so little info?
>
> Robert J. Granvin                                             [email-masked]

I'll give it my best shot.

Cheers, Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 10:21:41 -0500
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: INF: German uniforms

> On Wed, 6 Apr 1994 17:50:41 -0500 WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA said:
> >Rommel even wore British dust goggles on his visor hat - where will it
> >all end....... :-D
>
> Quick curiosity:  did Rommel continue to do so after leaving Africa?

Hi Ken,

I don't think so.  All the photos I've seen of him in Italy and at
Normandy have him wearing the visor hat without his Brit dust goggles.

According to Rommel's son, Manfred, he liked to wear his Africa
uniform because it was more comfortable.  The collar was open rather
then high and stiff as on continental general officer uniforms.
Manfred said he would wear the Africa uniform in Germany at home but
all you see of him in the "field" he is wearing the same as everybody
else and without those Joe cool shades.

Cheers, Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 10:47:32 -0500
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRV Children in camps

>           A few years ago I bought a tape by a band called "Joy Division".
>           A friend of mine told me that the Nazis would organize children
>           in concentration camps into groups called "Joy Divisions" (A form
>           of doublespeak if you will).  In the approx 8 years since he's
>           told me this, I haven't found ANY reference to this.  Is my
>           friend crazy or am I?  You can just email me privately.
>
>           Thanks!
>           John N.

Hi John,

Others on the list my be of help here so I will throw out what I know
in hopes of striking some familiar chords with folks.

Only thing that comes to mind is the Hitler Youth gatherings under the
"Kraft durch Freude" (strength through joy) program.  The HJ took
over as the lead youth organization after the Boy Scouts were banned
in Germany.   They organized huge gatherings designed to get the boys
used to military like regimen and lifestyle.  Physical fitness was
stressed as was paramilitary training.  Part of the athletic
competition included seeing who could throw the stick grenade the
furthest.  Shooting, marching, designing gliders, fixing motorcycles,
sailing were all things the HJ were involved in.  Pretty much
everything the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts do was done but the HJ or
BDM (Bund der Deutsches Madchen - League of German Girls) except it
was more military and certainly politically oriented.

I would not call the gatherings concentration camps because they were
more like big campouts or what the US army calls field exercises.  If
what you are talking about is something different I am not familiar
with it.  They were not permanent gatherings like concentration
camps.  The only long term Hitler Jugend (HJ) program was the
Landjahr which took city kids (boys and girls) and literally farmed
them out.  If you were selected for the program you would move to the
country and live with a farm family for a year helping with crops and
cattle.  The program had is drawbacks though as some of the girls
ended up getting more experience as mothers than as farmers :-)
If you successfully completed the Landjahr it was a good mark in your
book and promotions within the HJ came easier.

Anybody else got any other ideas?

Cheers, Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 11:10:12 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: INF: German uniforms

Hello, Bill and Ken!

I would like to add a comment to that below.

> On Wed, 6 Apr 1994 17:50:41 -0500 WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA said:
> >Rommel even wore British dust goggles on his visor hat - where will it
> >all end....... :-D
>
> Quick curiosity:  did Rommel continue to do so after leaving Africa?

    Rommel's command car was also British, not just the goggles. He
liked the British goggles because they allowed better protection not
to mention better peripheral vision.

    After leaving Africa, Rommel dispensed with the goggles and
tropical uniform and went back to the stiff-collared uniform.

    Thanks for allowing my two cents' worth to this.

    All the best.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 11:26:08 -0500
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: German II collar tabs.

> In looking through a copy of Manchester's American Ceasar, there is a photo of
> then Chief of Staff MacArthur watching Austrian Army manuevers in 1932.  In the
> photo, Mac is standing next to an Austrian officer who has the same horizontal
> IIs on his left collar tab.  Incidentally the officer could be a dead ringer
> for Eric von Stroheim.
>                                         Richard Kaplan

Hi Richard,

I'll have to have a look at that.  All the Austrian uniforms I have
seen have seven pointed stars on their collars where the Germans wear
Litzen.  I have never seen an Austrian uniform with Litze that was not
converted to Wehrmacht use after the Anschluss.  Their helmets were
essentially the same but the uniforms were decidedly different.

>From your description, it sounds like Mac and a German officer were
watching Austrian Army maneuvers.  Did it say the guy next to Mac was
Austrian?

Cheers, Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 11:27:21 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Wasserfall

Hello, Gudmundur!

Here goes with some more info.

                    Wasserfall

Among the masterpieces developed at Peenemuende was the SAM
"Wasserfall". It was designed to have a range of 50 km (164,000 ft)
and to reach 18,000m (59,100 ft), to destroy enemy aircraft flying at
900km/h (560mph). The envisaged performance was higher than that for
the American Nike-Ajax. The German High Command expected much from
this SAM in the counterattack against the streams of Allied bombers.
But only 14 Waterfalls had been completed before the surrender, 12 of
which were test flown. The Waterfall brought to the US was developed
into the Hermes SAM by General Electric. The same missle captured by
the Russians was developed into the M-2 SAM.

Developed from the experimental A-5, the Waterfall was powered by a
BMW liquid propellant motor. The guidance for the world's first SAM
was to be either the beam-rider or the command system. There was also
a plan to use an infra-red homing system on the Waterfall.

Wasserfall C2/E2: length: 7.62m. diameter: 0.812m. span of the
stabilizing fin: 2.38m (central section) and 2.5m (tail section).
Thrust:7800 kg x 40 sec. Fuel: visol, nitric acid 90%, sulfuric acid
10%. Weight at firing: 1955kg. Weight of warhead: 900kg. weight of
propellant: 1955kg. speed 2340km/h. Height: 19,500m. Range: 50km.

Hope this helps.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 12:46:16 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: IMHO

IMHO means I'll Make it Home for October. A battle cry used in D day.

Actually, that is a rather bald face lie in bad taste, and apoligies to
anybody who actually believed it. How's that for generating 'discussion'?.

I thought it meant In My Honourable Opinion, which is a cousin to IMHE,
In My honourable Estimation. (Here I go again).

Either way, I hope by now that you get the picture...
                                                        Steve

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 12:59:46 -0400
From:    "John E. Kollar" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Chuck Yeagers Kills in wwii

Charles Lindberg flew combat in the Pacific, I think he got
5 planes, and of course he flew the best fighter, the P-38....:)

                                John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 13:17:05 -0400
From:    "John E. Kollar" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hs-293

>Acoustic homing on the torpedo?

I'm really not sure, the book I read it in was an eyewitness account of
the action, and all he mentions is loading the torpedoe, firing it
when an escort was directly overhead(and dropping depth charges, cool
crew, they even waited several runs for the right set-up) fired the
torpedoe, hurd an explosion, and the destroyers screws stopped.  I
do not know if the can was sunk, but the other destroyers were slightly
peeved to say the least and the Batfish(?) spent another couple
of hours under attack.  I'll get documentation next week, but the book
was called 'Submarine' (very original)  From the way it was used
I would assume it was acoustic, they don't mention any active sonar
which they could have detected, and emphasised the sound of the
screws, but it is possible that the crew didn't know how it homed.
They only had the one torpedoe, and they fired it our an AFT tube.
,it was also shorter than a normal torpedoe, maybe for maneouver?
If anyone can give me more info,please help, I haven't seen any
other references to this.
                                        John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 12:27:15 -0500
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: INF: German uniforms

>
>     Rommel's command car was also British, not just the goggles. He
> liked the British goggles because they allowed better protection not
> to mention better peripheral vision.
>
> Terry Moore

Hi Terry,

Not to mention they looked really cool on his visor hat. :-D

Cheers, Bill Huber

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 18:26:11 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: WWI-L PLEASE READ

Ladies and Gentlemen!

taking a deep breath, a pile of prozac, and a risk, I have decided to
launch a register of those interested in joining a discussion list dedicated
to World War 1 (known hereafter as WWI-L). There seems to be a number out
there that are interested in this subject, and it is a trifle tedious as
we migrate between MILHIST and WWII looking for a place to discuss this
appallingly overlooked subject.

Instead of this Children of Israel-like wandering, I think we need to
get our heads down and do something about it. I have to say from the outset
that I know nothing of managing lists, am a humble software engineer by
profession, and think that if setting up a list requires lots of
disk space etc, I am unlikely to be able to site it here.

That said, nothing ventured, nothing gained, so I propose the following:

1. Interested parties please email me with the following details:

Subject Line: WWI-L
Body: Full Internet Address followed by your name

then send it to [email-masked]
I will dump the stuff in a file "for future reference" and for
communicating with you re success/failure of the project.

2. Those who may be able to help please email me with subject line
WWI-L: HELP (as an offer, not an explanation!) and detail me with
how you might be able to help (site, moderator, or whatever)

3. I would be particularly interested to hear from MILHIST-L and
WWII-L list owners as to where/how one can get hold of information
regarding how to set up a list.

This is a very long shot, and frankly, wonder whether it can/will
get off the ground, but here goes...

regards

Steve Baldwin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 18:30:15 GMT,BST
From:    John Gillies <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRV "Joy Division" - Children in camps

> >           A few years ago I bought a tape by a band called "Joy Division".
> >           A friend of mine told me that the Nazis would organize children
> >           in concentration camps into groups called "Joy Divisions" (A form
> >           of doublespeak if you will).  In the approx 8 years since he's
> >           told me this, I haven't found ANY reference to this.  Is my
> >           friend crazy or am I?  You can just email me privately.
> >
> >           Thanks!
> >           John N.

Bill Huber replies:
> Hi John,
>
> Others on the list my be of help here so I will throw out what I know
> in hopes of striking some familiar chords with folks.
>
> Only thing that comes to mind is the Hitler Youth gatherings under the
> "Kraft durch Freude" (strength through joy) program.

[Description of HJ activities deleted]

>  Pretty much
> everything the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts do was done but the HJ or
> BDM (Bund der Deutsches Madchen - League of German Girls) except it
> was more military and certainly politically oriented.

I think that BDM was (technically) "Bund Deutscher Madel" (sorry, my
editor doesn't do umlauts!) which has something of the same "quaint"
flavour as the usual English translation - "League of German Maidens".

> I would not call the gatherings concentration camps because they were
> more like big campouts or what the US army calls field exercises.

I thought John's friend was suggesting that it was children *in
concentration camps* (i.e. Jewish and other children) who were
organised into these "Joy Divisions". I've never heard the term used
in this context myself, but that's what I took John to mean. The
group "Joy Division" (like "New Order" and, more notoriously,
"Skrewdriver") certainly have the reputation (here in the UK at
least) of being sympathetic to Nazi ideology.
Maybe someone on HOLOCAUS-L could shed some light on the existence of
"Joy Divisions" in the concentration camps - I will post the
question there. The camps were certainly rich in ironical titles,
both "official" and unofficial".

John

John Gillies
Department of Psychology
Adam Smith Building
University of Glasgow
Glasgow  G12 8RT                      Tel: (0)41 339 8855 ext.5351
Scotland
                         [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 13:46:39 -0400
From:    "John E. Kollar" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP:V1 as nuke

I found it, the throw weight of a V-2 was around 1 ton,
the US did not develop a nuclear weapon of one ton or less
until 1952, with the Mk7 a 20kiloton device (same as Hiroshima)
with a weight of 1600lbs, or 0.8 tons.
        The History of the U.S. Nuclear Arsenol
        James Norris Gibson
        Brompton

                                JOHN E KOLLAR

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 13:46:08 EDT
From:    Joe Cafaro <[email-masked]>
Subject: <No subject given>

subscribe Joe Cafaro LaGrange College

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 14:40:49 -0400
From:    RAYMOND CRAIG MCINTURFF <[email-masked]>
Subject: vietnam war

I have just recently became aware of the milhis and wwii lists and seems
like a new list is being formed for wwi.  Being a babyboomer, I am
interested in reading and discussing the Vietnam War. Not the politics,
but the battles, weapons, and strategy.  Who out there in cyberspace are
interested?

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 12:03:27 PST
From:    "Jones, Scott T." <[email-masked]>
Subject: USAAF Regulations Question

     During a recent bout of insomnia, I was afforded the opportunity ot
     view a movie which was apparently filmed during WWII as a morale
     booster. It showed an attack on a Japanese convoy by a group of B-17s
     and what appeared to be torpedo carrying Dauntlesses(?). There were a
     number of shots of the B-17 waist gunners and their mascot, a
     miniature collie. What was the "official" policy regarding mascots on
     aircraft during a mission? What about non-crew personnel? Were these
     strictly enforced or were they as relaxed about it as they appeared? I
     understand that this movie was produced to boost the morale of the
     homefront and not as an educational tool, but I am curious as to how
     acurate the film makers really were.

     Thanks,

     Scott Jones
     [email-masked]

     Interesting quote I heard from a man who was in Bastogne as told to
     him by an instructor...
     "If they yell 'Aaaah!', you just shot an American. If they yell
     'Ach!', you just shot a Kraut."

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 15:18:54 -0500
From:    "W.C. DIVENS" <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: Great Lakes Aircraft Carriers

The following was forwarded from the alt.great.lakes
newsgroup.

May be interesting to some....

Bill
[email-masked]

------------------- forwarded text ----------------------

Newsgroups: alt.great-lakes
Subject: WWII Lake Michigan Navy
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>
Date: 30 Mar 94 07:40:31 GMT
Organization: Illinois State University
Lines: 41
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0]

Summary:Carrier Operations-Carrier Qualification
Keywords:

Even though it may be unbelievable to some, two converted paddlewheel
steamships did serve as training  carriers during WWII.  These two vessels, USS
Wolverine and USS Sable, operated in conjunction with flight training
operations at Glenview Naval Airstation, which is just north/northwest of
Chicago.  Prior to assignment to the fleet air arm, pilots needed to qualify in
landing and take-off operations.  Pilots would fly from Glenview NAS out to
these vessels in Lake Michigan and practice landings and take-offs.

These flat tops were small.  Just large enough for one aircraft to land and
capture with arresting cables and then take-off.  When an aircraft was damaged
upon landing the pilot became a shipboard visitor for the remainder of the day.
 Why?  There was no room for aircraft to remain on board until the ship
returned to port...any bird incapable of being re-launched went to the bottom
of Lake Michigan.  This allowed for the carrier to continue operations and
accounts for @165 to 400 WWII aircraft on the bottom of Lake Michigan.  I give
these numbers for two reasons.  First I cannot remember the exact numbers
quoted in literature in the last ten years.  Secondly, all aircraft that went
over the side were not listed in the ship's logs.

The benefits were simple.  These two vessels were converted quickly and this
required less time than if they were built from the keel up.  The Great Lakes
are inland waters that cover a large expanse of area allowing for operations of
this type.  More importantly,I believe, was the fact that these vessels did not
require a screening destroyer and crusier group.  This freed vessels of these
types for other duties.  Additionally, the potential for losing even a training
carrier was high if it would have been unescorted along any of our ocean coast
areas.  At the time of Pearl Harbor there were five carriers(US) in the
Pacific(Lexington, Yorktown, Hornet, Enterprise, and Langley).

There is much more, but I think this sheds some light on some history of the
Great Lakes and how they played a big role in WWII.

Richard Rinchich
[email-masked]

PS.  Mark, hopes this gives you and other readers a glimpse of Sable's and
Wolverine's worthiness.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 15:33:21 EST
From:    Chuck McCormick <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRV Children in camps

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: TRV Children in camps
Author:  [email-masked] at [email-masked]
Date:    4/7/94 8:28 AM

          A few years ago I bought a tape by a band called "Joy Division".
          A friend of mine told me that the Nazis would organize children
          in concentration camps into groups called "Joy Divisions" (A form
          of doublespeak if you will).  In the approx 8 years since he's
          told me this, I haven't found ANY reference to this.  Is my
          friend crazy or am I?  You can just email me privately.

          Thanks!
          John N.
----End included message----

Unfortunately the 'Joy Divison' is what the SS called the in-camp whore-house
(where the prisioners were forced to be the prostitutes*), which was used by
guards and their officers.  I have forgotten what the German translation of Joy
Division is.  I do not know if children were employed in this way but given the
perversity of the concentration camp system I do not doubt it.  I think the band
Joy Division chose their name to be dark and ironic.

*I don't know if prostitute is the right term...I don't think the women working
there were paid and they were obviously forced to work there.

Chuck
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 14:55:00 -0400
From:    JOHN NEMETH 404-347-4216 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRV "Joy Division" - Children in camps

          Sorry, I guess I wasn't too clear the first time around.  I did
          mean children, Jewish & other, in the various concentration
          camps.

          (side note. In the States I had never heard about Joy Division or
          New Order being sympathetic to Nazism, If I realized that I
          wouldn't have bought the tape.  But enough about that, my musical
          tastes have about as much to do with WWII as model decals) :-)

          John N.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 15:08:03 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: USAAF Regulations Question

Hello, Scott!

>      miniature collie. What was the "official" policy regarding mascots on
>      aircraft during a mission?

    Such mascots on missions were not allowed, and anyone caught with
them stood to be punished.

 What about non-crew personnel? Were these
>      strictly enforced or were they as relaxed about it as they appeared?

    There were specific regulations regarding mascots, personal pets,
etc. Regulations regarding non-crew personnel was a matter that
required going through channels. Others who "stowed away" or somehow
managed an unauthorized ride could be punished along with the crew of
the aircraft.

I
>      understand that this movie was produced to boost the morale of the
>      homefront and not as an educational tool, but I am curious as to how
>      acurate the film makers really were.

    That segment sounds as though it may have been staged and spliced
in to give the viewers on the home front a morale boost. After all,
it looks so "homey" to see a dog or a mascot of some sort in combat
to give the appearance that all was well and that the war was far
from the home front. Such uses of animals as you suggest, would also
tend to calm the viewers in that the horrors of war could somehow be
made more palatable if the plane contained some mascot.

    Anyway, that is my two cents' worth on this.

    All the best.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 15:11:34 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: Article on BGen Scott

Hello, Tim!

How fortunate you were to have made General Scott's acquaintance. I
have read the books already mentioned but it is all the more
impressive that you have his autographed book.

I appreciate your sharing that info with the list. It really adds a
personal touch to the discussions.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 16:18:12 -0400
From:    Daniel Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: RCAF

On Thu, 7 Apr 1994, W.C. DIVENS wrote:

> Indeed...but one group that is also often ignored, probably due to
> all the negative publicity in this era of 'political correctness over
> historical study' is the South African contingent of the Commonwealth
> forces.  Were there not a number of South Africans in the RAF during the
> Battle of Britain?  Were not their contributions worthy of praise too?
>
RAF 17 Sq which served in Rangoon from mid-January until it fell in
March, and later was stationed at Magwe and at Loiwing in China, was I
suspect a fairly typical "British" squadron. It had four Americans, two
of them called Tex (they were shown in the roster as RCAF); six
Canadians; two Australians; two South Africans (both it would seem of
British ancestry); and nine British pilots. (The British may have
included Irish nationals.)

Interesting to note, it was the South African Air Force, not Royal as in
the case of Canada, Australia, and New Zealand.

Also interesting is that the AVG Flying Tigers, which flew beside these
men for two months and off and on after that, never realized that their
were Americans in the Hurricanes.

The last pilot lost in the defense of Ragoon was one of those Americans:
Sgt Tex Wisrodt on March 3. (By this time, the AVG had left Rangoon.) The
other Tex, Sgt Barrick, was one of the most successful 17 Sq pilots in
Burma. He was alive a few years ago.

Cheers - Dan Ford   <e-mail: [email-masked]>
                    <postal: 433 Bay Road, Durham NH 03824 USA>
                    <voice/fax: +1-603-868-5850>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 16:50:50 -0230
From:    OLAF <[email-masked]>
Subject: Seek Bowater Corp. Archives

Help! I need to get in touch with Bowater House in London,
England. This is the corporate headquarters of the Bowater
Corporation, which is (or was) a major pulp & paper manufacturer.
Specifically, I wish to make contact with their corporate
archives for some information concerning one of the ships they
owned in the 1930s and '40s to transport paper between
Newfoundland and England, and which was torpedoed by a German
submarine in 1940. Can anyone provide me with a mailing address?
Many thanks in advance.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 14:45:05 -0400
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <[email-masked]>
Subject: request for information

Can anyone offer a date or further corroboration to an account
I've just read about the German u-boat U-43 entering the
harbor at Port of Spain, Trinidad and sinking three tankers?
The account is in a book titled "In Defiance", written by
Walter Boener.

According to this account, the event occurred sometime in 1942.
U-43 got past the anti-sub nets by following a liner named
Cabo de Buena Esperanza, which was being escorted in by a
British corvette or destroyer.  After lying low till after dark,
the u-boat torpedoed two tankers in the harbor.  When the same
liner departed the next morning, a tanker accompanied it through
the nets, and U-43 went along with them, torpedoing the tanker
about a mile offshore.  Several hours later, further at sea and
after the British had given up their search, U-43 briefly
surfaced alongside the liner to prove that the u-boat had survived.
The liner was carrying a load of German diplomats from South
America and was enroute to Lisbon.

Dennis E. Sparks
[email-masked]
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 17:16:37 -0400
From:    Walter O'Hara <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRV "Joy Division" - Children in camps

I believe that the Joy Division was the nickname for SS Liebstandarte
Adolph Hitler.  Again, a case of doublespeak, as this particular division
was guilty of some horrific atrocities.

Walt
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 12:35:38 +0100
From:    John Behrens <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Heinz Dittmar over mach 1? Me-163v-1

The speed of sound is very easy to calculate.  It is nothing more than
the squareroot of gamma*R*T, where:

gamma = 1.4

R = universial gas constant

T = absolute temperature

Remember, the units have to match.  The results are in either feet per
second or meters per second, depending on the units.

But these are pure numbers.  The physics of crossing the sound barrier
are much more difficult to overcome.  As you approach, shocks begin to
form on the wings, and later on the fuselage also.  This creates the
buffeting you were refering to.

                                John

On Wed, 6 Apr 1994, Terry Moore wrote:

> Hello, again, Gudmundur!
>
> Chuck Yeager was the first man to break the sound barrier. The Me-
> 163, at least from what I have read, was not designed to pierce the
> sound barrier. I think it would have disintegrated if it had done so,
> because the buffeting would have torn it apart. Mr. Dittmar may have
> been the first to fly at 1000 km/h plus but I don't think that figure
> would mean that it was fast enough to pierce the sound barrier.
>
> Any other thoughts?
>
> Terry
>
> Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
> P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
> fax 806-371-5370
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 15:29:38 CDT
From:    jesse carnes <[email-masked]>
Subject: WWII air show in Baton Rouge, LA

Hey Guys ;

We in Baton Rouge are going to have a FREE show of vintage WW2 warbirds
on April 23 from 10 am to 3 pm. at Ryan Airport.

If anyone is interested, please come.  My brother Robert and I and about
4-5 others will dress as WW2 bomber and fighter pilots in the real gear.
Loads of fun!

By the way, Randy Holden, a local public relations man, told me that
the THEN Harding Field was one of the initial homes of the famous 91st bomb
group of Twelve O'Clock fame.
Did not know THAt one until today ... nice!

Jesse Carnes
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 14:43:58 -0700
From:    Eric Fenster <[email-masked]>
Subject: Moscow, May:last chance

Anybody still interested in the study trip to Moscow which Eastern Michigan
University is sponsoring from 19 May-18 June should contact me immediately
for details because it is closing in a few days.

The subject is Russia's political, economic and social situation. You don't
have to be a "student," and you don't have to be from North America.

/ex

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 16:19:37 LCL
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: SPAIN'S FRANCO AND "K

To: [email-masked]

LC> Personally, I think the Vietnam generation in this
LC> country is rife with "killerati."  They still think they were
LC> right about (pushing for) our desertion of the Indochinese.
LC> "The Killing Fields" didn't seem to have daunted their self-
LC> righteousness in the least.

LC> If you think Tukhachevski and the 33,000 Red Army officers
LC> purged with him were "politically incorrect," imagine what our
LC> zealots would like to do to our national/domestic security
LC> people who have been trying to keep a lid on South and Central
LC> America!

LC> Lou Coatney

Please, Lou...

     This is the World War II discussion, not the place to denegrate a whole
generation that wasn't alive during WWII -- my generation, of which I will tell
anyone I have not the slightest shame and a good deal of pride. I would kindly
suggest there must be some other place where those remarks would be appropriate
or at least on topic.

     Thank you for endulging my interruption... Now, where were we?

     Jim Brady

___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 22:40:13 -0400
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: vietnam war

On Thu, 7 Apr 1994, RAYMOND CRAIG MCINTURFF wrote:

> I have just recently became aware of the milhis and wwii lists and seems
> like a new list is being formed for wwi.  Being a babyboomer, I am
> interested in reading and discussing the Vietnam War. Not the politics,
> but the battles, weapons, and strategy.  Who out there in cyberspace are
> interested?

Sorry to send this to the whole list, but I feel obligated to jump in
quickly. Stay away from the Vietnam-L mailing list!! It has very little
to do with Vietnam (as most of the discussion time is spent welcoming new
members and discussing tatoos), and for some unknown reason, it was very
hard to unsubscribe to. I decided to subscribe just to peruse, and got
stuck on it for about a week. Beware!!!
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 22:36:03 CDT
From:    Steve Alvin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: request for information

Dennis,

I've checked every entry for the U-43 in Rohwer's *Chronology of
the War at Sea*, and was unable to confirm this story.  I also
looked up the Cabo de Buena Esperanza and could not find an
entry for her.  The story sounds possible, but maybe by a diferent
boat?

BTW, this will probably be my last post to this list as I'll be
unsubing over the weekend.  My mailbox is shrinking and, while
I enjoy this list, it has so many short notes (that take up a
lot of space when you include headers and footers) that should
be sent to individuals instead of the list as a whole (for example
thank you's or I'll check that tomorrow) that I can't justify
staying subscribed.  This is not meant to be a final "flame"
just an observation--If people asked themselves "would the whole
list enjoy this post" before sending it, there would be a lot
less traffic and maybe I wouldn't have to unsub.

Take care all and continued good luck with the list.

--
Steve Alvin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Apr 1994 22:48:33 -0500
From:    Jon Stevens <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Pacific-inferior equipment?

Regarding the discussion on inferior equipment going to the Pacific Theater,
My dad, USMC 2nd Div, WWII, was not issued a bayonet or a knife before
shipping out for the Pacific.  He had to write home and ask his mom to
send him one.  She bought a bayonet at a surplus store in Chicago  that had
been chromed.  Needless to say he got it but spent a long time trying to
get rid of that shine by plunging it into a bucket of sand.

My question is --  was basic equipment like this simply not available in
large amounts in 1942?  Did the Marine Corps recieve less material than
the Army or even inferior material than the Army? Or was what happened to
my dad just a fluke?

Jon Stevens [email-masked]

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 6 Apr 1994 to 7 Apr 1994
***********************************************