Subject: WWII-L Digest - 2 Apr 1994 to 3 Apr 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 1994 00:20:43 -0400

There are 9 messages totalling 216 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. SPECULATION: No WWII for USA without Pearl Harbor? (3)
  2. Weap: B-17 vs B-24
  3. Re-2-: AF Guardian
  4. D-DAY: French Scandal
  5. Jets (3)

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Date:    Sun, 3 Apr 1994 07:09:48 EST
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor,
         Marist Coll" <[email-masked]>
Subject: SPECULATION: No WWII for USA without Pearl Harbor?

My wife's supervisor, hearing of the WWII list but without access
to the Internet, has asked me to post this question: "If the Japanese
had not attacked Pearl Harbor, but went after the Dutch West Indies and
Malaysia instead (but not the Philippines) would the US have still
entered the war, and if so, when?"
IMHO FDR would have found a way to enter the war at some point
because of his relationship to Winston Churchill and because Hitler's
continued aggression in Europe would have made FDR increasing concerned.
What is your opinion?

Jonah Triebwasser
Adjunct Instructor
Marist College
Dyson Building (Adult Education)
Poughkeepsie, New York12601
Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
E-Mail: [email-masked]

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Date:    Sun, 3 Apr 1994 12:03:21 EST
From:    Ingalls Steven MAJ <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Weap: B-17 vs B-24

On 1 April, David Wilma wrote...

>          In a way the only people who may be entitled to this discussion
>          are the crews who flew the Liberator and the Fort.

In a way you're right.  In a way you're also wrong.  Anyone with anything
whatsoever to say about this has as much right as anyone else.  One's
experience with the aircraft (personal or technical) will likely bear out where
that comment rates on the accuracy or importance scale.

I'm interested in someone providing me a -1 or other technical document so I
can calculate the stability of the aircraft and use those numbers as examples
in the aircraft performance and stability courses I teach cadets here at West
Point.  Any takers?  I'll return the books as soon as I'm done.  What would
help more are 3-Views, Engine, and Propeller Data, if available.

As for performance, I can certainly calculate the theoretical values, albeit
they will differ somewhat from the -1 (-10 for us Army folks nowadays).  There
always seems to be a little fudge in most aircraft performance charts.

MAJ Stephen Ingalls
USMA, West Point
FLY ARMY!

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Date:    Sun, 3 Apr 1994 14:14:24 EST
From:    S214000 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re-2-: AF Guardian

Hello everyone,
Happy Easter!! I really enjoyed the list of early jets the
Emmanual(sp?)posted, But I thought the Grumman AF Guardian aircraft were
recips. It'sbeen awhile since I read about these planes, and my
reference material is at home, so I'm working from memory.
Thanks, again
Mike Wilson<[email-masked]>
Northern Michigan University

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Date:    Sun, 3 Apr 1994 14:31:54 -0700
From:    Eric Fenster <[email-masked]>
Subject: D-DAY: French Scandal

Today the French "requisitioned" two hotels in Normandy for
the purpose of housing heads of state and high French government
officials during the D-Day commemoration.

The problem is that the rooms had been reserved for more than a
year by Canadian veterans who made the landing in 1944.  So what
happened?  The Canadians were told they could just go elsewhere!

All the French TV stations have been covering this scandal.  The
heros, the ones who risked their lives to save the country are
kicked out by the arrogance of the current government which is
making its plans at the last minute and expects everybody to
kowtow to it.

The mayor of Deauville and the hotel management promise the
Canadians will be taken in to private homes, but it doesn't
eliminate the insult that the subjects of the commemoration
are treated this way.

The people who did this:

Ministere des Affaires Etrangeres
37, Quai d'Orsay
75007 Paris FRANCE

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Date:    Sun, 3 Apr 1994 12:51:54 -0500
From:    Stan Koper <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: SPECULATION: No WWII for USA without Pearl Harbor?

> My wife's supervisor, hearing of the WWII list but without access
> to the Internet, has asked me to post this question: "If the Japanese
> had not attacked Pearl Harbor, but went after the Dutch West Indies and
> Malaysia instead (but not the Philippines) would the US have still
> entered the war, and if so, when?"

>From what I've read elsewhere regarding lack of preparedness for
Pearl Harbor, the U.S. "expected" a war with Japan in the spring
of 1942, but it's not clear how they expected a state of war to occur.

Since Roosevelt didn't "manufacture" an event, perhaps he and
his advisers expected to reach some point of confrontation over
the Japanese elsewhere.  Or maybe they figured they'd have to
go to Congress and ask for a declaration of war.

But did the U.S. have some sort of mutual defense treaty with
the Dutch, or with the British, vis-a-vis the Southwest Pacific
area?

Stan Koper
[email-masked]
         "Never Let A Machine Know You're In A Hurry"
      This message brought to you by uqwk 1.7 and Yarn 0.60

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Date:    Sun, 3 Apr 1994 18:41:06 -0400
From:    Daniel Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: SPECULATION: No WWII for USA without Pearl Harbor?

> > to the Internet, has asked me to post this question: "If the Japanese
> > had not attacked Pearl Harbor, but went after the Dutch West Indies and
> > Malaysia instead (but not the Philippines) would the US have still
> > entered the war, and if so, when?"
>
But does the question make sense? The Japanese were golden as long as
they stuck to China and Indochina, but there was no way they could invade
Malaya without a shooting war with British forces, or the Dutch Indies
without a shooting war with the Dutch colonial government that would
bring in the British. (And it was the Indies that the Japanese needed
above all else, for their oil fields.)

Looking at the map, one understands how risky war would have been in
Malaya and the Indies with a huge American presence in the Philippines.
Just as northern Indochina served as an unsinkable aircraft carrier for
the Japanese in their efforts to subdue the Chinese government, so would
the Phillipines have served as an unsinkable aircraft carrier for the
British and Dutch. And no question that we would have provided that sort
of assistance, just as we were assisting Britain at the time.

So I think that the Japanese options were either: 1) withdraw from
Indochina and from mainland China, or 2) destroy the European forces in
Southeast Asia, prevent the Americans from coming to their defense, and
stoke up on Indonesian oil.

Put another way, the alternatives were natioanl humilation or a suicidal
war. How many governments would have opted for humiliation?

Cheers - Dan Ford   <e-mail: [email-masked]>
                    <postal: 433 Bay Road, Durham NH 03824 USA>
                    <voice/fax: +1-603-868-5850>

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Date:    Sun, 3 Apr 1994 16:49:24 -0600
From:    Tony Schuler <[email-masked]>
Subject: Jets

WWII List,

The jet aircraft discussion has been most fascinating. The only thing
missing from the lists of jet aircraft that would interest me is the
top speed of the aircraft, and if they went into production.

Another interest would be that of helicopters. I believe that they were
developed during the war, but I am not sure. Did anyone use them in their
airforce? Were they used in any combat operations? Does anyone have a similar
list of helicopters that were displayed on the jets?

Thanks,

Tony Schuler
[email-masked]

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Date:    Sun, 3 Apr 1994 16:19:57 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Jets

Helicopters...
        The most widespread use of helicopters during WW2 was in
Burma. Choppers there were used mainly for medical evacuation of
British casualties from jungle clearings.
Most of the these early medecvac helicopter pilots were American.
One well-known (at the time) pilot on this duty was the ex-child
movie star, Jackie Cooper.

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Date:    Sun, 3 Apr 1994 16:40:12 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Jets

Another thought on helicopters in WW2...
        As well as the US made early helicopters, I think the Germans
also had a chopper then. Called the 'Kolibri', as I recall (which
means something like 'hummingbird'.)

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End of WWII-L Digest - 2 Apr 1994 to 3 Apr 1994
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