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There are 42 messages totalling 1329 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Tirpitz
  2. Schindler's List (3)
  3. Re[2]: INF: USAAF 28 APR 44 (4)
  4. WEAP: Weird Weapons (5)
  5. INF: USAAF 2 MAY 44
  6. Martin B-10 in SWPA
  7. US nightfighters
  8. USAAF: D-DAY
  9. TAC: River Platte (Graf Spee) (5)
 10. Toland's "INFAMY"
 11. P-61 Black Widow
 12. night fighters and attack aircraft
 13. INF: USAAF 28 APR 44 (now nightfighters)
 14. ULTRA in BARAROSSA (4)
 15. Smooth bore guns
 16. Question: Cannon/Machine Gun
 17. INF: USAAF 28 APR 44
 18. D-Day (2)
 19. INF: USN Chronology 2 May 1944
 20. Blitzkrieg France 1940
 21. German Navy 1936
 22. INF: USN Chronologies
 23. Spam in Europe
 24. MOnte Cassino
 25. Bomber Crewman survives (fighter pilot too)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 1 May 1994 22:52:31 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Tirpitz

BILL ELY..
        For solid information about the tunneling at Stalag Luft III,
see THE GREAT ESCAPE, by Paul Brickhill. Very authentic. Published
soon after the actual events, with first-hand accounts of the RAF/RCAF
participants. I knew Wally Floody (he died a few years ago), who had
been a hard-rock miner in Northern Ontario before he joined the RCAF.
Wally planned the Stalag Luft III tunnel, and helped excavate it. He
later was the technical advisor on the movie version. (You should have
heard his language whenever mention was made of that fictional Steve
McQueen USAAF character in he movie!  :-)  )  Anyway, Wally Floody
spoke highly of the Brickhill book, especially for the way it captured
the actual atmosphere in the Stalag at the time.
Regards.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 18:45:26 +1000
From:    Richard Ashley John Tidyman <Richard.Tidyman@MQ.EDU.AU>
Subject: Schindler's List

Hello WWII-L,

        Being a new subscriber I don't know of you have already gone over
this, but what did people on WWII-L think of Spielberg's Schindler's List.
I thought that it was gripping (all three and a bit hours of it).

Best Wishes,

*************************
Richard Tidyman
School of History
Macquarie University
NSW 2109 Australia
*************************

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 12:06:00 CET
From:    Peter de Lange <MIMHCC@RULMVS.LEIDENUNIV.NL>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: INF: USAAF 28 APR 44

> I am currently posting privately some info on this aircraft. It is my

Terry, I am very interrested in this kind of information and I
suppose a lot of others are, please post it to the list.
Peter de Lange

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 06:25:41 EDT
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <hb9388@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Weird Weapons

Steve,

The device is a Bangalore Torpedo.  Each section of pipe is filled with
explosive.  You slide the sections of pipe together through a barbed
wire fence and then blow it up. This clears a lane in the barbed wire so the
troops can move through the obstacle.

Bear


>In the movie "The Big Red One" the troops landing at Normandy had to setup
>a large pipe-like weapon for some purpose not made clear in the movie. The
>device seemed to be a series of pipe 2.5 or so inches in diameter that had
>to be screwed into each other to form a long tube. I think it shot off some
>explosive or something.
>
>The commentator mentioned wanting to meet "the asshole that invented it".
>
>Does anybody know what that was, and how it operated, how many were used,
>under what conditions, etc.?
>
>Sounds wierd enough to me...
>
>Thanx                                                           Steve
>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Steven E. Pudlo  - sep@trctc.commnet.edu |"Life may be a drag BUT
>STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
>Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
>574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
>Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>

Barrett F. Lowe               RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, West Point  (e-mail:  hb9388%usma6@trotter.usma.edu)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 06:27:41 EDT
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <hb9388@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Weird Weapons

Alan,

This device is called a Fuel-Air Explosive.

Bear


>Now,... this is definitely off topic, but does anyone know the name
>of the weapon/shell used in Desert Storm to crush/collapse the Iraqi
>tunnels and bunkers? It detonated into a petro-checmical ring of fluid
>about 100' off the ground and ignited around the edge to burn inward
>with a concussion that was said, on CNN, to be equivalent to a tac-nuke.
>
>Does anyone know of this device?
>
>(Sorry for the off topic, Big Joe, but my curiosity has got me here.)
>
>-Alan
>
>"Woof woof woof. That's my other dog impression." -Sutherland
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Alan Wild, LAN Mgr.  Father of 1.5             Voice:          (401) 792-2611
>ACC - Lippitt - URI  American Legion Post 102. FAX:            (401) 792-5479
>Kingston, RI  02881                            Bitnet:           AWild@URIACC
>                                               Internet: AWild@URIACC.URI.EDU
>Murphy's First Two Political Principles:
>1. No matter what they're telling you, it's not the whole truth.
>2. No matter what they're talking about, they're talking about money.
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

Barrett F. Lowe               RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, West Point  (e-mail:  hb9388%usma6@trotter.usma.edu)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 07:07:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: INF: USAAF 2 MAY 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
TUESDAY, 2 MAY 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CARIBBEAN (Sixth Air Force): 10th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), VI
Bomber Command, begins a movement from France Field, Canal Zone to the US
where it will be disbanded on 17 Jun 44.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 3 B-24s claim 2 freighters sunk in the S end
of Formosa Straits.

  EASTERN AIR COMMAND (EAC): Troop Carrier Command, until this date a major
subordinate component of EAC, is placed under Third Tactical Air Force,
another EAC component.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 335: 50 of 50 B-24s bomb
V-weapon sites in the Pas de Calais area of France without loss; escort is
provided by 50 P-47s and 52 P-51s.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 250+ B-26s and A-20s bomb
marshalling yards at Busigny, Valenciennes and Blanc-Misseron, France. 400+
P-47s and P-51s dive-bomb airfields and marshalling yards in France and the
Low Countries.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 250+ bombers hit targets in
Italy; B-17s hit the marshalling yard at Bolzano; B-24s, most with fighter
escort, attack Castel Maggiore and a railroad bridge at Faenza; 300+ bombers
are forced to abort because of weather.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, attacks against rail
lines and bridges in N Italy continue; medium bombers bomb an approach to a
bridge in N Oriveto, bridges in S Ficulle and in Marsciano, and marshalling
yards in Florence/Campo di Marte and W and NW Florence; light bombers hit
an ammunition dump NE of Rome; P-40s and P-47s hit rail lines N of Rome,
bridges SW of Rome, guns N of Anzio, a road at Montefiascone, a road bridge
at Cecina, trucks and planes at Malignano landing ground and several other
dumps, roads, and rail lines in N Italy.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-24s, staging through Eniwetok
Atoll, Marshall Islands from Kwajalein Atoll, Marshall Islands, bomb Truk
Atoll, Caroline Islands, during the night. During the day B-25s based on
Makin Island hit Jaluit and Wotje Atolls, Marshall Islands, using Majuro
Atoll, Marshall Islands as a shuttle base to rearm between strikes. B-25s
from Engebi Island, Eniwetok Atoll pound Ponape Island, Caroline Islands.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On Bougainville Island,
22 P-39s bomb a village N of Kieta, airstrip and buildings of Koromira and
Rigu Missions and 8 P-40s also hit the Kieta area. On New Britain Island,
fighter sweeps over the Rabaul area continue; fighter-bombers hit the
Vunakambi Plantation supply area with incendiaries and B-25s pound the Talili
area.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 140+ A-20s and
fighter-bombers hit bridges, barges, gun positions, roads, personnel,
supplies, huts and tent areas from Wewak to Hansa Bay throughout the day; 2
B-25s bomb airfields at Wewak and Boram; 8 others hit Wakde Island oil
stores, huts, AA positions, trucks, and other targets of opportunity; and
the airfield on Biak Island is bombed by 2 B-24s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 07:25:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Martin B-10 in SWPA

Last week, Jorge Merino asked about the use of Martin B-10s by the
USAAF in World War II.  Several people responded with information
about use of the Martin Model 139, export version of the B-10, by
the Netherlands East Indies Air Force early in the war.  One of
these aircraft, a Model 139WH-3A, made it to Australia and was
"drafted" (conscripted) by the USAAF in Jul 42 as an RB-10-MA in the
restricted category; on 8 Oct 42, the aircraft was assigned the USAAF
serial number 42-68358.  I have a source that states that this
aircraft was used by the USAAF in the Southwest Pacific Area until
Aug 44 and was subsequently ferried from Australia to an unknown
location (I assume the USA) with the ferry registration "NC139."

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 14:10:00 CET
From:    Peter de Lange <MIMHCC@RULMVS.LEIDENUNIV.NL>
Subject: US nightfighters

Here some data about US nightfighter squdrons.

P-70 in service with 6 NFS, 418 NFS, 419 NFS, 421 NFS and together with
     the P-39 in 24 FS at Panama.
     Total number off kills was 2.

P-61 in service with
     5 AF, 418 NFS, 421 NFS, 547 NFS, 550 NFS
     7 AF,   6 NFS, 548 NFS, 549 NFS
     9 AF, 422 NFS, 425 NFS
    12 AF, 414 NFS, 415 NFS
    13 AF, 419 NFS
    14 AF, 426 NFS
           427 NFS, transferred from Italy to India
    a crew of 418 NFS had the record of 5 kills.

P-38M in service with 451 NFS, 547 NFS and 550 NFS.
    In the Pacific were 2 x P-38F converted with SCR540 radar.
    Later the same with 3 x P-38J models.
    This were all single seaters, but it seemed two full-tasks,
    pilot and operator so 1 x P-38L as twoseater with AN/APS-6 radar.
    This was successfull and Lockheed was asked to convert
    75 x P-38L into P-38M.
    The P-38M speed was 406 mph, compared with 369 mph of the P-61
    The P-38M became operational the last few days of the war
    in the Pacific area and succeeded the P-61 in a few squadrons.
Peter de Lange

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 08:15:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: USAAF: D-DAY

FROM THE AIR FORCE NEWS AGENCY


Part I
052.  Army Air Forces and the Normandy Invasion, 1 Apr - 12 Jul 44
053.  D-Day remembered
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
052.  Army Air Forces and the Normandy Invasion, 1 Apr - 12 Jul 44
12, 1944
by Frederick J. Shaw
     On 1 Apr 44, more than 10,000 British and American aircraft within range
of western European targets began operations in support of Operation Overlord,
the Allied invasion of Nazi-occupied Europe set for early June.
     Preparatory efforts consisted of isolating and weakening the Nazi
defenses on the coast of Normandy.  Over the next two months, American B-24
and B-17 heavy bombers, B-26 medium bombers, and P-47 and P-51 fighters, and
RAF aircraft struck transportation targets in France, Belgium and Germany.
Their raids ended daylight railroad traffic in France and rendered impassable
critical Seine River crossings below Paris leading to Normandy.
     Denying the skies to the German air force was as important as denying
roads to the German army.  Although few German aircraft were based within a
350-mile combat radius of Normandy, they might deploy to approximately 100
empty bases within this radius.  During the last three weeks before D-Day,
Allied heavy bombers, medium bombers, and fighters struck vacant airfields
throughout France, hitting more targets outside the 350-mile radius than
within it to avoid disclosure of the invasion area.
     The Allies rendered the enemy bases within range of Normandy incapable of
sustaining major operations.  Allied heavy and medium bombers employed similar
deceptions while damaging coastal batteries guarding the invasion beaches.
During early June, Allied reconnaissance aircraft photographed the invasion
area from various altitudes and distances.
     The invasion of Normandy began before dawn on June 6 (D-Day) when 900
aircraft and 100 gliders of the IX Troop Carrier Command dropped the 101st
and 82d Airborne divisions behind enemy lines.  As Eighth and Ninth Air Force
P-38s covered convoys approaching the Normandy beaches, more than 2,300 B-17
and B-24 heavy bombers loosed 2,944 tons of bombs on coastal batteries and
other shore defenses.  B-26s and fighters supplemented the work of the heavies,
also attacking transportation targets and airfields.  Later in the day, the
heavy bombers struck major choke points close to the invasion beaches.
     Forward air controllers landing with the infantry directed fighter-
bombers to enemy targets with pinpoint accuracy.  Other fighter bombers flew
armed reconnaissance against trucks, armor, and troop concentrations.
Advancing under this friendly canopy, the Allied armies placed the invasion
beaches beyond the range of enemy artillery, obtained room for maneuver, and
linked their beachheads by mid-June.
     The D-Day effort of the Army Air Forces and its Allies was one of the
mightiest demonstrations of air power.  Nearly 13,000 aircraft, 8,722 of them
American, directly supported the invasion.  Their work yielded impressive
results.  Allied air superiority was so overwhelming that only three German
fighters challenged the invasion convoys.  An additional 12 German fighter
bombers sortied against the invasion beaches, most jettisoning their bombs
as Allied fighters intercepted them.
     The interdiction of the transportation network delayed the timely arrival
of German reinforcements.  One German commander described the route over which
his armor traveled as a "racecourse" for American fighter bombers.  Forced to
travel in small units over secondary roads at night, German divisions arrived
in the battle area exhausted, disorganized, and demoralized.  Unable to drive
the Allies from the beaches, the German army now faced an unequal, two-front
war against powerful foes.  (Shaw is a historian with the Air Force Research
Agency, Maxwell AFB, Alabama)
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
053.  D-Day remembered
by TSgt. David P. Masko
     It is appropriate that after 50 years, Vito Pedone should return to
Normandy for the anniversary of D-Day.
     In 1944, Pedone was 22 and a captain in the Army Air Forces.  He
completed pilot training a few months after the attack on Pearl Harbor, and
prior to D-Day was directing C-47 "pathfinder" training for the Ninth Air
Force in England.
     On 6 Jun 44, Pedone and Lieutenant Colonel Joel Crouch, led the tactical
beginning for the liberation of Europe.  Their mission was to cross the enemy
coast on the west shore of the Cherbourg Peninsula, France at 0006 hours on 6
Jun.  At 0016 hours, their C-47 dropped 18 paratroopers on Normandy beach.
     The specially trained crews of airborne infantry set up radio
navigational aids on six drop zones, along with marker lights to guide the
main column of assault planes.
     Pedone said the weather varied throughout the operation, but overall it
was favorable.  Air Force historical reports say the "pathfinders" had no
way of knowing what to expect from the Germans who guarded the Normandy
beaches with heavy defenses.
     Today, Pedone still has a dauntless air about him.  At 74, the retired
Air Force colonel -- who served in three wars and completed 35 years on
active duty -- is the owner of a successful wine import company in Arlington,
Virginia.
     But wine is not on Pedone's mind these days.  He's more interested in
plans for the second Normandy invasion; when he and other veterans will
return to France and celebrate the 50th anniversary.
     Tall, with an easy smile, Pedone says World War II is still a vivid
experience.
     On the eve of D-Day, moonlight flooded the cockpit where Pedone and
Crouch readied their C-47.  Like everybody else on the English airfield,
Pedone was looking at his watch and waiting for the signal to go.
     "As we neared the English Channel, I remember turning the planes lights
off," Pedone said.  "We stayed dark until we hit the drop zones and were
headed back over England."
     Following Pedone and Crouch was an armada of 1,500 other C-47s and a
couple hundred gliders.  The task of this advance invasion party was to mark
drop zones in a 55-mile-square area on the Cherbourg Peninsula behind Utah
beach for the 82nd and 101st Airborne Division paratroopers.
     During the early hours of Operation Overlord, 18,000 airborne troops
would be dropped from planes and land in gliders brought to the drop zones
by a never ending stream of C-47 transport aircraft.
     All over England, state historical records, people watched the airplanes
in wave after wave passing overhead.
     During the assault, 8th Air Force bombers were neutralizing the coastal
defenses and attacking German front-line troops.  Other missions were
directed at severing communication lines between the beachhead defenders and
reserve elements.
     Meanwhile, fighter operations over the battle area became the
responsibility of the Ninth Air Force and the RAF 2nd Tactical Air Force.
     According to Air Force history reports, Pedone and other C-47 pathfinder
crews swept in over the targets so fast that the Germans at first thought
they were fighter planes.  Surprised by the suddenness of the attack, the
German missed their opportunity to shoot down many of the C-47s.
     Pedone remembers seeing explosions and streams of tracer bullets all
around his aircraft.
     "Many of our transport pilots worked in the airlines before the war...
up until D-Day they'd never seen combat before," said Pedone with a
compassionate, yet troubled look.
     "You have no time to think about the big picture -- D-Day," he said.
"You think about the people in your plane and do your job.  There's no time
to be scared.
     "But if you are afraid, you might as well get right out of the (expletive)
airplane and go back to the BAQ because you must take control of your senses."
     Pedone explains that a pilot who experiences combat is "always
anticipating," and must keep a positive attitude.  "Only when you get back
and sit down can you be scared and say what (expletive) happened?"
     After Pedone and Crouch finished their pathfinder mission, they were
ordered back to London.  With all Allied aircraft ready and invasion troops
on their ships, Supreme Allied Commander General Dwight D. Eisenhower wanted
a first-hand assessment of the conditions on Normandy beach.
     "We reported to Eisenhower and told him the pathfinders did their job,
and explained what we saw," Pedone said.
     After seeing Eisenhower, Pedone and Crouch got their C-47 back in the
invasion line so they could carry more troops to the invasion beaches.
     Prior to their D-Day assault, Eisenhower had told the C-47 aircrews and
grease-painted paratroopers that "the eyes of the world are on you tonight."
     Air Force history records show how all Allied aircraft were painted with
"invasion stripes" of alternating black and white bands completely around
fuselages and wings.  Pedone said the stripes on his C-47 and other aircraft
would easily identify them as friendly to ships and troops below.
     He said both the aircraft markings and the pathfinders lighting the
beaches were important because of lessons learned from previous invasions.
For example, during the Sicilian invasion, U.S. forces had tragic losses due
to friendly fire and missed drop zones.
     Although there were some mistakes with airborne landings on D-Day,
history records it as a huge success.  In fact, Air Force history states
aircraft losses as "not inordinately high."
     Of the 821 troop carriers dispatched, 805 reached their dropping zone
and 21 were lost.  Of the 104 tugs and gliders, all but one reached the
landing zone and only two aircraft tugs were lost.
     From the outbreak of World War II in September 1939 and the subsequent
enslavement of most of Europe by Nazi Germany, an invasion of western Europe
leading to the complete defeat of Germany had been a prized goal of Great
Britain.  It also became a goal of the United States when it entered the war
in December 1941.
     The purpose of Overlord was simple, state history reports.  The goal was
to free Europe of Nazi forces. Now, 50 years later, the anniversary of this
"unanimity of purpose" is celebrated.
     But for Pedone, surrounded by artifacts and photographs of D- Day in his
comfortable home, the anniversary is bittersweet because many of his war
buddies are gone.
     "A lot of the people I used to serve with have died," said Pedone, who
was a friend of General Curtis E. LeMay, one of the D-Day planners.
     Pedone is especially mournful for his wife, Geraldine, who died a few
years ago.  He met and married Geraldine when she was a second lieutenant
serving in England.
     "She was a nurse and assigned to the 806th Air Evacuation Squadron...
her squadron was the first to support the buildup for the war."
     Although saddened by losses of family and friends, Pedone's philosophy
is to move on and be thankful.  For example, he said he's thankful to the Air
Force for giving him a rewarding career.
     "When I was growing up in New York City in the 1930s, the only choice I
had for an education, being a minority, was to be a gangster, a priest or a
musician -- in that order."
     Pedone went to music school for two years, which at the time, was enough
college to become an aviation cadet with the Army Air Corps.
     "After I was commissioned, we went from a few thousand to almost a
million people.  In those days you'd fly one mission as a first lieutenant and
in a few months you'd be a lieutenant colonel."
     Although Pedone did make rank fast during World War II, he didn't put on
full colonel until his 12th year of service.
     "It was only because of World War II that we developed all the concepts,
the traditions, the historical data, the heroes that we honor today," he said.
     "This war was the legacy of the Air Force tradition.  It's the basis of
the Air Force and how we split off from the Army."
     He went on to explain the importance of D-Day in this context and
challenged Air Force people to keep this history alive.
     For Pedone, and other World War II veterans in their twilight years, the
D-Day anniversary might be their last great assembly.  (Masko is assigned to
Air Force News Service in the Pentagon)
--

      // \\
    //     \\                    Air Force News Agency
   |         |              Kelly Air Force Base, Texas, USA
   \  CMSgt  /      ___________________ /____________________________________
   \  Mike   /
   \ Bergman /
     \     /

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 14:55:52 +0200
From:    Bengt Nilsson <BenNi@BIBL.LIU.SE>
Subject: Re: TAC: River Platte (Graf Spee)

>Yes, the significance of Capt Langsdorff making the Nazi raised-arm salute
>reflects the official Nazification of the German Navy that early (1939)
>in WW2.
>Capt Langsdorff was following the offcial leadership credo of Admiral
>Doenitz, who frequently circulated his reminder that: "It is nonsense
>to say that the soldier or officer must be non-political. The soldier or
>sailor embodies the State in which he lives; he is its representative,
>the outspoken advocate of the States. Therefore. he has to stand behind
>this State with all his might."

Thus wrote Sidney Allinson.

Isn't the truth that Capt. Langsdorff didn't make the Nazi salute. I am
right now looking at the picture from the funeral mentioned earlier and
its showing him making the usual military salute.

If I'm not mistaken that's also what Capt Lindemann did just before the
Bismarck sank.

So I'm sure the nazification was not as complete as Sidney Allinson seems
to suggest.

Bengt Nilsson
Benni@Bibl.LiU.SE

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 14:59:00 CET
From:    Fred van Wetten <CRIPFW@RULMVS.LEIDENUNIV.NL>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: INF: USAAF 28 APR 44

> Hello, Scott!
>
> I am currently posting privately some info on this aircraft. It is my
> intention to answer questions such as yours, also radar development,
> and anything else associated with the development of the P-61. Are
> you interested? If you are, I will post all my info to the list. It
> will be lengthy and will take time, but if you want it I will post it
> to the list.
>
> Please advise.
>
> Terry
>
> Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
> P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
> fax 806-371-5370

I, for one, would greatly apprieciate the info Terry.

Kind regards, Fred.

Fred van Wetten           Netadress:CRIPFW@rulmvs.LeidenUniv.nl
CRI, instituut voor telecommunicatie en computerdienstverlening
RijksUniversiteit Leiden, PO BOX 9512, 2300 RA LEIDEN, The Netherlands
Tel: +31 (0)71 276933     Fax: +31 (0)71 276967

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 09:00:34 -0400
From:    QUACK <MUSCORJ@HSDWL.UTC.COM>
Subject: Toland's "INFAMY"

On Page 255 Safford says that he didn't prove the "winds execute" existed.
I'm confused,as he tried to convince the Congressional hearings that the
message was received in Washington and decoded in plenty of time to warn
him at Pearl Harbor.
Much has been made of this message and I'm wondering why it has been given
so much attention in other books and at the time (1946) nobody wanted to
say it existed.
Comments please.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 19:58:47 +0700
From:    "Peter E. Beal" <bealp@MORAKOT.NECTEC.OR.TH>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Weird Weapons

On Fri, 29 Apr 1994, Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs. wrote:

> In the movie "The Big Red One" the troops landing at Normandy had to setup
> a large pipe-like weapon for some purpose not made clear in the movie. The
> device seemed to be a series of pipe 2.5 or so inches in diameter that had
> to be screwed into each other to form a long tube. I think it shot off some
> explosive or something.
>
> The commentator mentioned wanting to meet "the asshole that invented it".
>
> Does anybody know what that was, and how it operated, how many were used,
> under what conditions, etc.?
>
It was called a Bangalore Torpedo.  I don't know how it got the name but
it was designed to blow holes in barbed wire obstacles (and maybe bunkers
and mine fields).  About this I am not sure, but I think one could
assemble it from one or more of each of the explosive and non-explosive
sections.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 07:06:04 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: P-61 Black Widow

Hello, Aldo, Emmanuel and others!

Here goes with the next installment of info on the P-61.

During late Nov 1940, the design reverted to its original 3 man/twin
rudder/vertical stabilizer configuration. The Air Corps wanted more
firepower and directed that the lower fuselage gun turret be replaced
by 4 wing-mounted 20MM cannon. This proposal was submitted on 5 Dec
1940. With some minor changes, the Northrup NS-8A proposal met all
the Army's requirements and a Letter of Authority For Purchase was
issued to Northrup on 17 Dec 1940 with a formal contract calling for
2 experimental aircraft and 2 small scale models of the proposed
aircraft (not to exceed $1,367,000) awarded on 10 Jan 1941. The
contract assigned the military designation XP-61.

With the award of the experimental contract, Northrup began work on
the first prototype. The prototype was immediately followed (on 10
Mar 1941) with a second contract calling for 13 YP-61 service test
aircraft. The XP-61 aircraft was powered by two 2000 hp Pratt and
Whitney R-2800-25S air-cooled, radial engines equipped with 2-stage,
2 speed mechanical superchargers. It was felt that turbosuperchargers
were not needed for the XP-61's proposed mission, even though the
addition of turbosupercharger would have added about 50 mph in top
speed and 10,000 feet to the aircraft's ceiling.

On 2 April 1941, the Aircraft Mockup Board met at Northrup to review
the XP-61 mockup. As a result of their review, several changes were
made to the aircraft. The wing guns were relocated to the underside
of the fuselage, flame arrestors were added to the engine exhausts
and some of the radio equipment was relocated. With the removal fo
the guns and ammunition from the wings, the capacity of the wing fuel
tanks was increased from 540 to 646 gallons. Additionally, the board
required that provision be made for the use of external fuel tanks.

That is is it for today. Will post more tomorrow. The question was
asked just as the employment of the three-man crew. There was a
pilot, radar operator and turret gunner/operator.

    I will be posting combat info, squadrons, commanders, other
performance data on this aircraft. Will also discuss its use after
WWII.

 More later.

 Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 08:55:56 CDT
From:    Robert Hohlt <rhohlt@MGMSERV1.MGM.SAIC.COM>
Subject: night fighters and attack aircraft

Bob Smart wrote:

> The Navy even tried having an entire carrier air group of night operative
> aircraft, both fighters and strike aircraft. I beleive the concept was tried
> out on the Enterprise in late '44 or early '45. I think an Independence class
> CVL was tried also, forming an entire Task Group for night ops.




You can include the U.S.S. Saratoga in that late '44 or early '45 group
as well.  That is, in-between its many torpedoings.




Peter de Lange gave us a USAAF squadron and kill tally.

Peter,

Do you have any information on the records of the carrier based night
fighters and attack aircraft?


Robert Hohlt, Jr.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 21:01:22 +0700
From:    "Peter E. Beal" <bealp@MORAKOT.NECTEC.OR.TH>
Subject: Re: Schindler's List

On Mon, 2 May 1994, Richard Ashley John Tidyman wrote:

> Hello WWII-L,
>
>         Being a new subscriber I don't know of you have already gone over
> this, but what did people on WWII-L think of Spielberg's Schindler's List.
> I thought that it was gripping (all three and a bit hours of it).
>
> Best Wishes,
>
I haven't seen the movie since it has yet to appear here in Bangkok (it
will open on May 7th) but I just finished the book.  It appears to me
that Spindler may have started off as a smart businessman (healthy
workers are productive and thus profitable workers) and then got caught
up in what he was doing and enjoying the fact that he was outwitting the
system.

Opinions please.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 06:47:48 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: INF: USAAF 28 APR 44 (now nightfighters)

Hello, Bob, Emmanuel and others!

Very interesting post!

> And just a little point, The P-38M was set up to carry a radar operator above
> and behind the pilot. ( I believe he had to be above because of the way the
> wing structure came through the center pod, not because they wanted the
> visibility)

    And all the more reason to push for a purpose-dedicated night
fighter, as the P-38M, a good machine, left much to be desired for
the night-fighting role.

Terry




Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 10:48:26 -0400
From:    "John E. Kollar" <KILLAR@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU>
Subject: Re: ULTRA in BARAROSSA

They knew something was up (Britain and USA) and they told the
Russians, but Stalin thought it was a plot to get him to turn
against Hitler. :)

He learned the truth later the hard way.

John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 11:05:51 -0400
From:    "John E. Kollar" <KILLAR@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU>
Subject: Re: Smooth bore guns

A rifled gun has a groove cut in it to spin it's projectile in flight
which will increse its accuracy and it's range.  A smoothbore gun does
not have the groove and lacks both range and accuracy(bear with me for a
minute) smoothbore guns came out first, then rifled guns, and now many
modern tanks use smoothbores again, but for a different reason. The main
tank killing piece of ammunition is either the FSDSDU round or the HEAT round.
The FSDSDU is a Fin-Stabilizied Discarding Sabot Depleted Uranium penetrator,
a long thing piece of metal which is surrounded by blocks to hold it in the
cannon until it is fired when they drop awa in flight, so that the entire
force of the very heavy penetrator (depleted uranium is very dense) is
exerted on a tiny section of the tank, this kind of penetrator has no problem
in going through several feet of sand and a Soviet T-72 tank as shown
by Desert Storm.  The do not need to be spun (ie from a rifled gun)
because they have fins that stabilize them after launch.  The HEAT
round is High Explosive Anti-Tank round, it uses the Monroe Effect, a
specific characteristics of explosives, to fire a superheated jet
of metal, gas, and other things so as to melt it's way into the tank,
if this shell is spun (ie from a rifled gun) the jet is disbursed because
it gets thrown out to the sides which is why it is much easier to fire
it from a smoothbore gun.  With the high power, long barrel, and computer
fire control their really is no loss in accuracy with the current
smoothbore guns mounted on the M1A1 tank.

John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 11:06:42 -0400
From:    "John E. Kollar" <KILLAR@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU>
Subject: Re: Question: Cannon/Machine Gun

Canon are 20mm and larger, machineguns are smaller

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 11:13:33 -0400
From:    "John E. Kollar" <KILLAR@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Weird Weapons

Bangalore Torpedoe.

Explosive in first end, other section of pipe screwed together to move
explosive section further toward the obstacle, when the explosive is
next to obsatacle (west wall in movie) blow the explosives and you have
an opening in the obstacle.  But torpedoe was a straight line (roughly)
and you could walk machinegun fire along the length of it (also
shown in movie).

John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 11:05:19 EDT
From:    Archie <SOASMITH@ECUVM1.BITNET>
Subject: Re: ULTRA in BARAROSSA

The question of how much Stalin knew of the intended German attack is
addressed in a recent book about Molotov.  He said that the treaty with
Germany in 1939 was a way to gain time before the Germans attacked Russia.
Molotov is speaking from a particular perspective but it would seem that
such a major military undertaking would provide spys many opportunities to
ascertain information. As such, it would be unlikely that nothing was known
by the Russians.

Perhaps some of the previously secret materials now being made public by the
Russians will shed some light on this subject.
Opinions from others on the list.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 11:15:49 -0400
From:    "John E. Kollar" <KILLAR@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Weird Weapons

FAE bombs, Fuel Air Explosive, gives off a spray of
an inflammable explosive, then lights it off, a tremendously
effective weapon (it doesn't burn from out in CNN is wrong, it gets
ignited from the middle and it happens almost all at once) same
principle as a coal dust explosion.


John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 08:21:59 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Schindler's List

Excellent, of course.
        And all the more so from having been written by an Australian.
o o
 "
 U

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 11:21:45 -0400
From:    "John E. Kollar" <KILLAR@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU>
Subject: Re: INF: USAAF 28 APR 44

Don't forget the F4U also with a radar pod used for night fighting

John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 08:30:26 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: TAC: River Platte (Graf Spee)

1) My comment was in response to someone else on here saying they had seen a photograph of Capt Langsdorff making the Nazi salute at the funeral of some
of his crew at Montevideo.
2) If anyone has quibbles about the degree of Nazification of he WW2 German
Navy, they would be better employed taking up the matter with Adm Doenitz.
It was his idea, not mine.  :-)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 11:31:55 -0400
From:    "John E. Kollar" <KILLAR@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU>
Subject: D-Day

I've looked through my books, but can't find relief, can anyone
give me a casualty count on German deaths on June 6, 1944 just a
quickl count is needed, also one of the Allied deaths, rounding
to thousands is ok, I just need some quick numbers to fire off to my
local paper that is bitching that the Germans shouldn't be invited
to the DDay celeberation (never mind that we invited a Japanese rep.
to Pearl Harbour...) and I need to correct her history.  She says that
6.6 thousand Americans died on DDay, that is fully half a division, and
casualties are almost always at least 1.5 times the number of deaths, so
that means that only one half to three quarters of a division would be
able to engage in combat, which I can't believe, especially since only one
beach was hotly contested.

John E. Kollar
(I think maybe 6.6 thou might be for all allies)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 13:48:34 EST
From:    "Theron P. Keller" <tkeller%smtplink@RELAY.NSWC.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 2 May 1944

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr44.txt

05/02 Tue.  United States naval vessel damaged:
             Destroyer PARROTT (DD-218), by collision off
              Norfolk, Va.,
              36 d. 41' N., 76 d. 18' W.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 08:45:54 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: TAC: River Platte (Graf Spee)

Bengtt...
        August 11, 1943.
                Announcement from Adm Doenitz to all German Naval Forces:
        "The enormous strength which the Fuhrer radiates, his unwavering confidence, and his far-sighted appraisal, have made it very clear that we are all
very insignificant in comparison to the Fuhrer..."
        December 17, 1943.
                Speech by Admiral Doenitz to an assembly of Kreigsmarine
officers at Weimar:
        "It is nonsense to say that the soldier, sailor, or officer, must
be non-political. The sosldier embodies the State in which he lives, he is
its representative, the outspoken advocate of the State. Therefore he has
to stand behind this State with all his might." -- Adm Doenitz.

'Pretty clear signal of Nazification as Navy policy, right from the top.
*Doentiz's* words by the way. Please don't keep shooting the messengers. :-)
        After all, even Adm Doenitz said, "Anyone who believes he can do
better than the Fuhrer is silly..."

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 21:22:31 +0200
From:    Hans Steketee <Hans.Steketee@NRC.NL>
Subject: Re: Blitzkrieg France 1940

On Tue, 22 Mar 1994, Hans Steketee wrote:

> Does anyone know whether Flak-regiments attached to German Panzer
> divisions during the 1940 Blitzkrieg campaign in France were equiped with
> so called Horchgerate _  listening devices to measure range, azimuth and
> bearing of enemy aircraft - for fire control purposes?
>
> Hans Steketee
> Defense editor, NRC Handelsblad, Rotterdam, the Netherlands
>

On Mon, 2 May 1994, Hans Steketee send the same message.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 15:22:59 -0400
From:    Norrin M Ripsman <nripsman@SAS.UPENN.EDU>
Subject: German Navy 1936

I know this is before WWII, but I thought I'd give it a shot.  Does anyone
know where I can find sources on both the composition of the German navy
[and in particular U-boats] and the relative naval balance between France
and Germany in 1936?

Thanks in advance,

Norrin M. Ripsman

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 18:15:24 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@NAT2.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: TAC: River Platte (Graf Spee)

On Mon, 2 May 1994, Bengt Nilsson wrote:
>
> Isn't the truth that Capt. Langsdorff didn't make the Nazi salute. I am
> right now looking at the picture from the funeral mentioned earlier and
> its showing him making the usual military salute.

I've also read that he wrapped himself in the flag of the old Imperial
Navy, not that of the 'Third Reich' navy with the swastika, before
committing suicide.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 15:09:14 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: ULTRA in BARAROSSA

Hello, Archie!

See below.

> The question of how much Stalin knew of the intended German attack
is
> addressed in a recent book about Molotov.  He said that the treaty with
> Germany in 1939 was a way to gain time before the Germans attacked Russia.
> Molotov is speaking from a particular perspective but it would seem that
> such a major military undertaking would provide spys many opportunities to
> ascertain information. As such, it would be unlikely that nothing was known
> by the Russians.

    Interesting.

> Perhaps some of the previously secret materials now being made public by the
> Russians will shed some light on this subject.

    Agree with that, and wish research in this area could be
expedited. I am certain that there is much there that could
significantly affect the interepretation of the conflict. I,
personally, would like very much to know all was involved with Rote
Kappelle in Switzerland, besides Rudolf Roessler, and just who his
contacts were inside the German High Command. To my knowledge that
has never been established nor has the identity of his top agent
there been revealed.

    Terry


Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 15:13:59 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: TAC: River Platte (Graf Spee)

Hello, Bengt!

See below.

> Isn't the truth that Capt. Langsdorff didn't make the Nazi salute. I am
> right now looking at the picture from the funeral mentioned earlier and
> its showing him making the usual military salute.

    Yes. From all I have seen, your statement is correct. In fact,
Captain Langsdorff wrapped himself in the old Imperial War Flag of
Prussia before he shot himself. Langsdorff saw himself as a
representative of the old Imperial naval officer of the old class. He
did his duty as he saw it without regard to politics in Berlin.

> If I'm not mistaken that's also what Capt Lindemann did just before the
> Bismarck sank.

    That is also correct.

> So I'm sure the nazification was not as complete as Sidney Allinson seems
> to suggest.

     That is also true. Of all the services, the German Navy was the
least politicized and nazified.

        Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 15:19:07 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: INF: USAAF 28 APR 44

Hello, Fred!

Please check your e-mail each day for awhile. I will post something
on this aircraft during that time. If you or anyone else has a
question, please drop me a line.

More later.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 19:14:39 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@NAT2.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: ULTRA in BARAROSSA

> The question of how much Stalin knew of the intended German attack is
> addressed in a recent book about Molotov.  He said that the treaty with
> Germany in 1939 was a way to gain time before the Germans attacked Russia.
> Molotov is speaking from a particular perspective but it would seem that
> such a major military undertaking would provide spys many opportunities to
> ascertain information. As such, it would be unlikely that nothing was known
> by the Russians.

In fact, quite a lot was known to the Russians, but Stalin simply refused
to believe it. The German troop movements were observed, spies reported on
the German plans, the British sent a warning, even some Germans
(reportedly including the German ambassador in Moscow, von Schulenburg)
warned for the coming attack. Some Red Army generals did attempt to alert
their units, but were quickly ordered not to do so. Molotov himself was a
little worried (He asked the Germans what he could do to remove their
'irritation') but probably did rely on Stalin's opinion.

Stalin probably thought that it was not logical for Germany to attack the
USSR at that time -- of course he was right, but Hitler wasn't being
logical. In general, the USSR adhered to the 1939 treaty, delivering
products and materials to Germany. Some of the Soviet movements in the
Balkan had upset Hitler, however.

Meanwhile, the USSR was preparing for war, but the plans were far too
gradiose in design and too slowly executed --- in 1941, the USSR was
basically still unprepared.

The 1939 treaty can be explained in several ways. At the time, the USSR
had three options: (1) Staying out of the conflict: relatively safe, but
without immediaty profit. (2) Becoming an ally of France and Britain, and
fighting Germany:  highly dangerous, with the bad condition of the Red
Army, and the French and British were offering nothing in return. (3)
Making an agreement with Hitler to be good friends: safe and highly
profitable. Stalin simply selected the best option.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 15:47:02 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: INF: USAAF 28 APR 44

Hello, Peter!

Glad to hear from you again, too. Please check your e-mail daily. I
will be sending much info on this aircraft to the whole list.

More later.


Terry

 > Terry, I am very interrested in this kind of information and I
> suppose a lot of others are, please post it to the list.
> Peter de Lange
>

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 14:24:16 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@CCLINK.LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronologies

After reading many posts by Jack McKillop on the USAAF chronologies, I
finally decided that it would be worth the effort to try to find and post a
US Navy version of the same.  I found a chronology file at the byrd ftp
site, and I plan to be posting each day's summary.  Most of these
chronologies aren't even close to being as long as their USAAF
counterparts.  I suppose that's because there were tens of thousands of
planes, but only hundreds of ships.  (These numbers are certainly a guess,
if anyone has any kind of a concrete figure, that would be kind of
interesting to know.)

If the post seems incomplete, well it probably is.  I've already received
one comment on today's post: "With whom or what did the destroyer collide?"
Unfortunately, what you read is what I've got.  If you have questions about
content, I'd recommend posting them to the list, as there are MANY here
with resources that must rival a small college library!  :-)

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 15:26:08 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: D-Day

Hello, John!

> I've looked through my books, but can't find relief, can anyone
> give me a casualty count on German deaths on June 6, 1944 just a
> quickl count is needed, also one of the Allied deaths, rounding
> to thousands is ok,

    I have seen the figure 10,000 casualties for the Allies on 6 June
1944. That may be deaths, but I am not certain. Will have to check on
that.

I just need some quick numbers to fire off to my
> local paper that is bitching that the Germans shouldn't be invited
> to the DDay celeberation (never mind that we invited a Japanese rep.
> to Pearl Harbour...) and I need to correct her history.  She says that
> 6.6 thousand Americans died on DDay, that is fully half a division, and
> casualties are almost always at least 1.5 times the number of deaths, so
> that means that only one half to three quarters of a division would be
> able to engage in combat, which I can't believe, especially since only one
> beach was hotly contested.

    German losses were higher, but I cannot vouch for any figures I
may quote you on that. Will have to check that for you as well.

    More later, if someone else hasn't gotten it to you first.

    Terry




Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 17:50:38 -0400
From:    Emery Ford <eford@DELPHI.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Spam in Europe

Hello all!
        Hopefully nobody will get too upset at my excusion into the obscure.
I was wondering if our national pride and glory, Spam, was exported in
massive quantities to Europe and the Soviet Union during WWII.  Also,
was Spam included in the rations for U.S. GIs?  Does anybody have any
quotations of comments from foreign nationals who tried Spam?  I'm sure if
the Russians tried it they may have converted from Communism long ago.

        An annual Spam eater,

                --Emery

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 15:06:14 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET>
Subject: MOnte Cassino

I have gotten the impression that Monte Cassino was considered an important
battle in WWII.  Something about destroying the monastery occupied by
German artillery.  However, I have also heard that the Germans were not
actually there and that the story was invented.

Can anybody cite a reference for me concerning the truth about MOnte
Cassino?

Thank you.


  =========================================================================
  | DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
  |                                  | Computers in Business & Education. |
  | Recently returned from my second | Education:  Curriculum development.|
  |   extended stay in Prague.       |    International Education, TEFL.  |
  | Working on second book about     | Central Europe:  Post revolution   |
  |   Prague and new Czech Republic. |    economic, social, political     |
  |                                  |    problems and opportunities.     |
  |                                  |  B-25 in WWII.                     |
  | E-Mail:                          | Free lance writing and editing.    |
  |   USA:  BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET    | Stamp collecting.                  |
  =========================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 16:11:00 PST
From:    Stephen Fox <FOXS@AXE.HUMBOLDT.EDU>
Subject: Bomber Crewman survives (fighter pilot too)

A few months ago I spoke with a P-51 (Mustang) pilot who had
bailed out, but his chute was what we navy fliers called a "Roman
Candle."  (Maybe the AF called it the same?)

He came down through a tree, as I remember it, breaking several bones
in his legs.  Hospitalized, he was eventually exchanged in January
1945 for hundreds of civilian German internees that were being
repatriated to Germany.

He lives in Washington State, but I don't feel at liberty
in giving out hjis name and hometown.


****************************************************************************
 Steve Fox                     "I ask myself, where is the man or woman,
 History Department            standing before lifeless porpoises strangled
 Humboldt State University     and bloated in a beachcast driftnet, or
 Arcata, CA  95521             standing on farmland ankle deep in soil gone
 (707) 826-4788                to flour dust, or flying over the Cascade
 FAX: (707) 826-4496           Mountains and seeing the clear cuts stretching
 FOXS@axe.humboldt.edu         for forty miles, the sunbaked earth, the streams
                               running with mud, who does not want to say,
                               'Forgive me, thou bleeding earth, that I am
                               meek and gentle with these butchers'?"
                                        --Barry Lopez
***************************************************************************

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 1 May 1994 to 2 May 1994
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 46 messages totalling 1332 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Question: Cannon/Machine Gun (5)
  2. Spam in Europe (13)
  3. P-61 Black Widow (4)
  4. re : B-10
  5. TAC: River Platte (Graf Spee) (2)
  6. German Rifle Grenades
  7. INF: USAAF 3 MAY 44
  8. MOnte Cassino (2)
  9. C-SPAN D-Day Show (2)
 10. INF: USN Chronologies (2)
 11. night fighters and attack aircraft
 12. INF: D-Day Casualties
 13. INF: USN Chronology 3 May 1944 (2)
 14. German Navy 1936 (3)
 15. Bangalore Torpedos
 16. P-61 radar
 17. WWII-L Meeting at Jefferson Barracks
 18. INF: USN Chronology 05-03-94
 19. Tirpitz
 20. five rules

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 15:24:25 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: Question: Cannon/Machine Gun

>
> Canon are 20mm and larger, machineguns are smaller

No, there are 15mm cannon.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 00:23:13 -0500
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spam in Europe

In message World War II Discussion List writes:
> Hello all!
>         Hopefully nobody will get too upset at my excusion into the obscure.
> I was wondering if our national pride and glory, Spam, was exported in
> massive quantities to Europe and the Soviet Union during WWII.  Also,
> was Spam included in the rations for U.S. GIs?  Does anybody have any
> quotations of comments from foreign nationals who tried Spam?  I'm sure if
> the Russians tried it they may have converted from Communism long ago.
>
>         An annual Spam eater,

Unfortunately, SPAM was widely exported to the allies, including Russia.

Also, unfortunately, I have a quote by Stalin regarding SPAM, but can't locate
it at the moment, it seems.

The opinion in Russia is about the same as it was here (and still is).  About
the best they could say is that it kept you alive.  :-)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 21:28:21 +0100
From:    John Behrens <jbehrens@DHM.COM>
Subject: Re: P-61 Black Widow

On Sat, 30 Apr 1994, Terry Moore wrote:

> The following morning, Pavlecka went with Jack Northrup to discuss

Interesting information. Just one correction.  The name is spelled with
an O, not a U.  Its Jack Northrop.  It amazes me how many people think it
is the other way.  That is all.

                                John

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 10:07:00 CET
From:    Peter de Lange <MIMHCC@RULMVS.LEIDENUNIV.NL>
Subject: re : B-10

In the USAAF serie of 9 DECEMBER 1941 I found:

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Far East Air Force):
and close to 30 other aircraft (B-10's, B-18's and observation airplanes)
have been lost in aerial combat or destroyed on the ground.

I do not see them in squadron service, but some must be around there.

Peter de Lange

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 10:20:01 +0200
From:    Bengt Nilsson <BenNi@BIBL.LIU.SE>
Subject: Re: TAC: River Platte (Graf Spee)

>                Announcement from Adm Doenitz to all German Naval Forces:
>        "The enormous strength which the Fuhrer radiates, his unwavering confid
ence, and his far-sighted appraisal, have made it very clear that we are all
>very insignificant in comparison to the Fuhrer..."
>        December 17, 1943.
>                Speech by Admiral Doenitz to an assembly of Kreigsmarine
>officers at Weimar:
>        "It is nonsense to say that the soldier, sailor, or officer, must
>be non-political. The sosldier embodies the State in which he lives, he is
>its representative, the outspoken advocate of the State. Therefore he has
>to stand behind this State with all his might." -- Adm Doenitz.
>
>'Pretty clear signal of Nazification as Navy policy, right from the top.
>*Doentiz's* words by the way. Please don't keep shooting the messengers. :-)
>        After all, even Adm Doenitz said, "Anyone who believes he can do
>better than the Fuhrer is silly..."

Thus wrote Sidney Allinson.

I would like to say to this that it may say something about Doenitz, but it
doesn't say much about the nazification of the German Navy.

Did these statements change the actions and convictions of the average
German sailor? I'm sure you could find similar statements from Goering,
but if you did, would that say anything about the political opinions of
the pilots of the Luftwaffe? I think not.

I can't back this up with any figures, but I would think that many of the
officers of the Kriegsmarine were men who had fought in the old Imperial
Navy. So it wouldn't surprise me if they had very little sympathy for
the Nazis. The fact that a man like Langsdorff rose to command a ship that
at the time was the pride of the German Navy must say something about the
failure to nazify the navy.

Besides, was there ever during the 1930's or during the war a serious
attempt to remove Non-Nazi officers from the Wehrmacht and to promote
Party members instead? I don't know, but perhaps someone else does?

Bengt Nilsson
Benni@Bibl.LiU.SE

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 00:42:05 EDT
From:    Matthew Gajkowski <gruppen@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Spam in Europe

 A Polish veteran that fought under the Russians told me that they were given
2 types of canned meat that were prepared for the Russians by the U.S.
1. Hard smoked pieces of ham
2. Corned beef with bay leafs.

Matthew Gajkowski

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 00:47:09 EDT
From:    John Sloan <johns426@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Spam in Europe

Emery,
There are some famous comments about spam in the Gulag but I don't have them
in front of me at the moment. Will try to find time to check for you. Think
it was served when Wallace visited or else some other American VIP.
JOhn sloan

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 00:50:28 EDT
From:    Matthew Gajkowski <gruppen@AOL.COM>
Subject: German Rifle Grenades

Does anyone have any information regarding the penetrating

capabilities of the Gewehrpanzergranate 46 & 61, Grosse
Gewehr-Panzergranate 40, and the Gewehr Panzergranate 30?

How about the blast radius of the Gewehrsprenggranate and the
Gewehrsprenggranate "Weitschuss"?

Matthew Gajkowski

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 07:09:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: INF: USAAF 3 MAY 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
WEDNESDAY, 3 MAY 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 12 B-25s hit Kohima and Kalewa; 28
fighter-bombers pound ammunition dumps and other supplies at Mohnyin and N of
Nanyaseik; 9 P-38s hit airfields in the Meiktila area; and 7 P-40s attack
Lakatkawng and support ground forces in the area.
  88th Fighter Squadron, 80th Fighter Group, moves from Mokelbari, India to
Shingbwiyang, Burma with P-40s; during the month, a detachment begins
operating from Myitkyina, Burma.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 7 Chinese-American Composite Wing
(CACW) B-25s bomb the Mihsien town area and also hit numerous vehicles and
troops NE of Mihsien, between Yochou and Hsuchang, at Chihsien and N of
Yenling; the B-25s also strafe the town of Hsiangcheng; 4 B-25s and 8 P-40s
pound storage area at Tangyang airfield; 10 CACW P-40s score 11 direct hits
on a bridge over the Yellow River NW of Chenghsien, and destroy 15 trucks and
many troops between Loyang and Luchou. In French Indochina, 10 other P-40s on
armed reconnaissance sink 9 sampans near Cat Ba Island, knock out a bridge at
Bac Le, damage another at Kep, and pound Na Cham railroad yards.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 336: 47 of 51 B-24s bomb
the V-weapon site at Wizernes, France; 33 are damaged; 3 airmen are WIA.
Escort is provided by 48 P-47s and 53 P-51s without loss.
  Mission 337: 5 of 5 B-17s drop 960,000 leaflets on 26 towns in France,
Belgium and The Netherlands; 1 B-17 is damaged.
  9 B-24s are dispatched on CARPETBAGGER operations.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  AAF, MTO: 16th Reconnaissance Squadron (Heavy, Special), AAF, MTO, moves
from Foch Field, Tunisia to Foggia, Italy with B-17s; a detachment is
operating from Borgo, Corsica. The 16th serves as a radar detection and
countermeasures unit in the MTO.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s and B-26s pound
railway bridges at Monte Molino, Orvieto, and Taggia, bridge approaches at
Ficulle and Imperia, and Ventimiglia marshalling yards; A-20s attack
ammunition dumps; P-40s and P-47s attack rail lines, bridge, dump, guns and
buildings in the battle area and score 4 direct hits on an observation post S
of Cassino; vessels and docks at Civitavecchia and Montalto di Castro and
road bridges and rail lines in the area; town of Fondi and rail lines and
bridges nearby; railway bridges at Foligno, Sant'Elpidio a Mare and Grosseto;
viaduct at Terni; and numerous vehicles, dumps, railroads, vessels, and other
targets in the battle areas and in N Italy.
  447th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 321st Bombardment Group (Medium),
moves from Gaudo Airfield, Italy to Solenzara, Corsica with B-25s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-25s from Kwajalein Atoll bomb
Wotje Atoll while others, based at Makin Island, strike both Jaluit and Wotje
Atolls, using Majuro Atoll as a rearming base between raids.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On Bougainville Island, 8
P-39s bomb buildings at Monoitu; 17 others, in the course of 6 missions, hit
targets of opportunity, including Japanese-occupied huts and buildings at
Toiemonapu, Tinputs and Sisiruai, and bivouacs at Tarlena, Ratsua and
Mawareka. On New Britain Island, 24 B-25s bomb Kulon Plantation and a
personnel concentration to the NE. Allied fighter sweeps over the N Solomons
and the Bismarck Archipelago continue. P-40s returning from the New Britain
Island area bomb Pororan, Bougainville Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 72 B-24s,
B-25s and A-20s thoroughly blast Wewak and Boram Airfields in a single raid;
about 120 A-20s, B-25s and fighter-bombers, operating throughout the day, hit
the Wewak and Hansa Bay areas, including targets at Nubia, Uligan, Mushu
Island, Wewak and Boram; airfields at Maffin Bay are bombed by B-25s.
  Moves in New Guinea: 7th and 8th Fighter Squadrons, 49th Fighter Group,
from Finschhafen and Gusap respectively to Hollandia with P-40s; 65th Troop
Carrier Squadron, 433d Troop Carrier Group, based at Nadzab with C-47s,
begins operating from Tadji.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 07:33:14 EDT
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <hb9388@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: MOnte Cassino

George,

I think one of the best recent works is FATAL DECISION by Carlo d'Este.
It covers the battles of Cassino and Anzio up to the fall of Rome.

AT the time of the bombing, the German commander did not have any
soldiers in the abbey itself.  There were some artillery
spotters on the hills close by, but no German troops occupied the
abbey until after the Allies bombed it.

Barry


>I have gotten the impression that Monte Cassino was considered an important
>battle in WWII.  Something about destroying the monastery occupied by
>German artillery.  However, I have also heard that the Germans were not
>actually there and that the story was invented.
>
>Can anybody cite a reference for me concerning the truth about MOnte
>Cassino?
>
>Thank you.
>
>
>  =========================================================================
>  | DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
>  |                                  | Computers in Business & Education. |
>  | Recently returned from my second | Education:  Curriculum development.|
>  |   extended stay in Prague.       |    International Education, TEFL.  |
>  | Working on second book about     | Central Europe:  Post revolution   |
>  |   Prague and new Czech Republic. |    economic, social, political     |
>  |                                  |    problems and opportunities.     |
>  |                                  |  B-25 in WWII.                     |
>  | E-Mail:                          | Free lance writing and editing.    |
>  |   USA:  BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET    | Stamp collecting.                  |
>  =========================================================================

Barrett F. Lowe               RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, West Point  (e-mail:  hb9388%usma6@trotter.usma.edu)

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 07:55:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: C-SPAN D-Day Show

For those of you in the US and Canada, a show entitled REMEMBERING D-DAY
will be shown on C-SPAN on Saturday and Sunday, May 7 and 8, at 1:00 PM
EDT.  I have not seen it so have no idea of what it is about.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 14:30:00 CET
From:    Peter de Lange <MIMHCC@RULMVS.LEIDENUNIV.NL>
Subject: Re: INF: USN Chronologies

> After reading many posts by Jack McKillop on the USAAF chronologies, I
> finally decided that it would be worth the effort to try to find and post a
> US Navy version of the same.  I found a chronology file at the byrd ftp
> site, and I plan to be posting each day's summary.  Most of these
>
> Theron P. Keller
> Logicon, Inc.
> Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
> tkeller@logicon.com

To be honest, my first thought was not so enthousiast, everyone who
want the USN-Chron can get them from Byrd.

My second thought: may be not everyone is able to FTP to Byrd, then
this is a good solution.

My third thought is very enthousiast, now we can do a day by day
discussion about the war at sea, very nice, very handsom.
I am sure Larry Jewell is glad to see how we use his work.

Theron Success!!
Peter de Lange

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 14:47:00 CET
From:    Peter de Lange <MIMHCC@RULMVS.LEIDENUNIV.NL>
Subject: Re: night fighters and attack aircraft

Robert Hohlt, asked:
>
> Peter,
>
> Do you have any information on the records of the carrier based night
> fighters and attack aircraft?
>
Answer : no.

In fact I am looking for such info too.
But my handicap is, nobody on the list gives a day by day record of
the USN squdrons.
I'll asked around here, if I found somewhat you get the data.
Peter de Lange

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 09:02:40 EDT
From:    Richard Kaplan <kaplanr@CLP2.CLPGH.ORG>
Subject: INF: D-Day Casualties

John;
        Looking at John Polmar's encyclopedic World War II: America at War,
1941-1945, casualties (killed and wounded) were about even at 15,000 for each
side on June 6th.  Rommel's assessment for the entire month of June was "28
Generals, 354 Commanders, and approximately 250,000 men."

                                Richard Kaplan
                                Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 06:06:48 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@CCLINK.LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 3 May 1944

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr44.txt

05/03 Wed.  United States naval vessels damaged:
             Destroyer escort DONNELL (DE-56), by submarine
              torpedo, North Atlantic area.
             Destroyer escort MENGES (DE-320), by submarine
              torpedo, western Mediterranean area.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 09:14:45 EDT
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor,
         Marist Coll" <JZML@MARISTB.BITNET>
Subject: Re: C-SPAN D-Day Show

>For those of you in the US and Canada, a show entitled REMEMBERING D-DAY
>will be shown on C-SPAN on Saturday and Sunday, May 7 and 8, at 1:00 PM
>EDT.  I have not seen it so have no idea of what it is about.
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
>|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
>|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
>|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
>-------------------------------------------------------------------
C-Span also just visited the FDR Home and Library here in Hyde Park
New York. I don't know when the program will air, but the FDR library
has an excellent new CD-ROM interactive display where you pretend to
be FDR and have to make decisions as to whether or not (and to what
extent) American aid should go to Britain (pre-12/7/41). I believe
C-Span will cover this display and the other WWII related displays.

Jonah Triebwasser
Adjunct Instructor
Marist College
Dyson Building (Adult Education)
Poughkeepsie, New York12601
Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
E-Mail: jzml@maristb.marist.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 09:32:25 EDT
From:    MNHAD007@SIVM.SI.EDU
Subject: Spam in Europe

Emery,  I recently saw a television news fluff on Spam and Hormel's effort to
make SPam the taste of the 90s.  My words not Hormel's.  Growing up we had Spam
instead of lunch meat sometimes.  We had Spam for scrapple sometimes.  And
sometimes my mother would add Spam to chicken soup.  We probly had Spam more
maybe less than 6 time a month.  I bought some Spam for my family recently
and I was the only one to eat it.  I made Spam omelettes, Spam sandwiches and
Spam with linguini.  My childhood revisited.  Just remebered a CNN 10 second
piece this past or earlier on the Spam cookoff.  Don't remember where it was
held.  My father rode in B-17s later flew em during WWII.

H. A. Kurt Luginbyhl
Scientific Computer Specialist
National Museum of Natural History
Washington D.C. 20560

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 07:58:42 EDT
From:    Ingalls Steven MAJ <is8206@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: German Navy 1936

In response to your question regards the German/French naval balance and
composition of the German navy in 1936...

Of course, all my references are at home.  However, most comprehensive
bookstores (how do you know which are comprehensive?) have a reasonable section
on military history.  Almost any volume discussing U-boats of World War II
begins with their origins in WWI.  Most have some mention in the title
referring back to the 191-s.

It may require another reference to make the comparison with France.

A last source you might check is Jane's Fighting Ships for that year.  We are
fortunate to have a complete collection here and don't know how common that is.

MAJ Stephen A. Ingalls
USMA
West Point

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 10:07:41 EDT
From:    MR SKIP WILDER <PHSP11A@PRODIGY.COM>
Subject: Re: INF: USN Chronologies

        Bravo, Theron!  Appreciate your efforts.  Perhaps CAPT Tim Taylor,
USN (tim.taylor@ncts.navy.mil) can suggest other resources for your labors.

 -----------------------------------------------------------
 |    Skip Wilder              |                           |
 |    phsp11a@prodigy.com      |"The road to hell is paved |
 |    FAX (703)528-2103        | with good intentions."    |
 |    McLean, Virginia, U.S.A. |                           |
 -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 07:04:16 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: German Navy 1936

Hello, Norrin!

> I know this is before WWII, but I thought I'd give it a shot.  Does anyone
> know where I can find sources on both the composition of the German navy
> [and in particular U-boats] and the relative naval balance between France
> and Germany in 1936?

    Consult Cajus Bekker's book "Hitler's Navy".
There some tables and appendices that deal with that topic.

    There are others, and I will get these to you tomorrow.

    More later.

    Terry





Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 07:00:43 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: MOnte Cassino

Hello, George!

> I have gotten the impression that Monte Cassino was considered an important
> battle in WWII.

    Monte Cassino became the linchpin in the defense line of the
Germans in Italy. If it fell, then the whole German defense line
became untenable, and Monte Cassino was located in country ideal for
defense.


  Something about destroying the monastery occupied by
> German artillery.  However, I have also heard that the Germans were not
> actually there and that the story was invented.

    True, but given the Allied frustrations at being stalemated for
so long there, the story began to gain credence and was finally
believed and cogent arguments began to be heard about bombing the
monastery. A tragic mistake, because after it was bombed, then the
Germans did move into the monastery ruins and used it as an
observation post.

> Can anybody cite a reference for me concerning the truth about MOnte
> Cassino?

    There are several. Fred Majdalany's book "The Battle for Monte
Cassino.

    "The Race for Rome by Dan Kurzman


  There are others I have and will have to get their titles for you,
and will send them to you tomorrow.

    More later.

    Terry




Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 09:32:54 -0500
From:    Jon Stevens <jstevens@DAVID.WHEATON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spam in Europe

On Mon, 2 May 1994, Emery Ford wrote:

> Hello all!
>         Hopefully nobody will get too upset at my excusion into the obscure.
> I was wondering if our national pride and glory, Spam, was exported in
> massive quantities to Europe and the Soviet Union during WWII.  Also,
> was Spam included in the rations for U.S. GIs?  Does anybody have any
> quotations of comments from foreign nationals who tried Spam?  I'm sure if
> the Russians tried it they may have converted from Communism long ago.
>
>         An annual Spam eater,
>
>                 --Emery
Emery,

My uncle who was at Gaum in WWII said that he loved spam and his buddies
hated it.  That made him glad as he always got enough spam while he was
in the army.  In fact he still loves spam.  I think he told me this was
part of the "C-Ration".  He also mentioned another ration that he
liked which was in the form of a high protein candy bar.  Again he said
that few people liked it but him.

Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, a wonderful spam.
Jon Stevens

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 07:17:25 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: P-61 Black Widow

Hello, Aldo, Emmanuel, Peter and others!

Here goes with the next installment on the history of the P-61.

  The heart of the XP-61 would be its Airborne Interception (AI)
Radar System. The AI radar evolved from a modified SCR 268
Searchlight Control Radar which had been flight tested iin a modified
Douglas B-18A. By 18 Jun 1941, the National Defense Research
Committee's Radiation Laboratory had completed its initial
development work on the AI radar which was slated for installation in
the XP-61. This radar designated the SCR-720 was produced by Western
Electric Company.

Production SCR-720A radars had a scanning radio transmitter mounted
in the nose of the aircraft with a range of almost 5 miles in the AI
mode. The SCR-720A could also be used as an airborne beacon or homing
service, a navigational aid and for operations in conjunction with
interrogator-responder (IFF) equipment. The radar operator in the XP-
61 would locate and track the target and once within range, the pilot
would close for the kill using a scope mounted in the center of his
instrument panel. The upper turret on the XP-61 could be controlled
and fired by any member of the three-man crew. The RO could traverse
the turret 180 degrees to fire on targets approaching from the rear
or elevate the guns 90 degrees to engage targets above the P-61. The
forward firing cannon, however, could only be fired by the pilot.

Construction of the XP-61 prototypes continued through the summer of
1941, although not without problems. The dorsal turret mounting ring
was impossible to mount in the aircraft, so Northrop opted to use a
pedastal mount like that used on the upper turret of the B-17. Then,
the turret itself became unavailable from the sub-contractor.
Experimental aircraft came second in priority to operational aircraft
and the same turret was used in the B-29. As a result, a dummy turret
was installed for flight testing. During Feb 1942, Curtiss notified
Northrop that the C5425-A10 automatic, full-feathering propellors
slated for installation on the XP-61 would not be available in time
for either the prototype's rollout or early flight tests. As a
result, Hamilton Standard Propellors were used until the Curtiss
units became available. Finally, on 8 May 1942, the first XP-61
prototype  (41-19509) rolled off the Hawthorne assembly line.

More tomorrow.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 10:56:34 EST
From:    Peter Storey <storey@VAX.LIBRARY.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject: Re: Spam in Europe

-------------------------- ORIGINAL MESSAGE ---------------------------
> From: Emery Ford <eford@DELPHI.UMD.EDU>
>
> Hello all!
>         Hopefully nobody will get too upset at my excusion into the obscure.
> I was wondering if our national pride and glory, Spam, was exported in
> massive quantities to Europe and the Soviet Union during WWII.  Also,
> was Spam included in the rations for U.S. GIs?  Does anybody have any
> quotations of comments from foreign nationals who tried Spam?  I'm sure if
> the Russians tried it they may have converted from Communism long ago.
>
>         An annual Spam eater,
>
>                 --Emery

My father served in the RCAF in WW II.  He was stationed in the Yukon
and Nova Scotia.  Every once in a while he would tell me certain
experiences that he had in the services.  According to my father, Spam was
served quite frequently in the mess hall, so much so that it was universally
despised.  One night at dinner time one of his associates came into the
mess hall from the cold.  When he saw that Spam was being served again
for the umteenth time he wrang his hand and exclaimed with glee:  "OH BOY!!
 SPAM!!"  He was of course being very ironic.  He was acting as if he
was about to sit down to a steak dinner.  This vaudevillian bit of
humour apparently caused a great deal of humour amoungst his colleagues.
*************************************************************************
 Peter Storey                                      Phone (416) 978-3397
 Information Technology Services
 University of Toronto Library
 Internet: storey@library.utoronto.ca
*************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 16:34:00 CET
From:    Peter de Lange <MIMHCC@RULMVS.LEIDENUNIV.NL>
Subject: Re: Question: Cannon/Machine Gun

> When dealing in aircraft, what is the difference between a cannon and
> a machine gun. Both are rapid fire? Is it a question of accuracy or rifle
> barrling?
>
This problem was discussed in 1940.
Both are rapid fire, but the mg much rapier (new word?)
The cannon gives a heavier bullet.
That means, with a mg a bigger chance to hit then with a cannon.
If you are fighting against fighters the most prefere mg, a better
chance to hit and a fighter cannot take so much damage.
If you are fighting against bombers, the most prefere cannon, a
bomber is easier to hit and a connon gives much more damage.
So it depend on the target.
In 1940 one Spitfire sqd (605 ?) flew with cannon but this was a
failure against the 109 and after a month they were converted back
to mg.
Peter de Lange

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 16:49:25 GMT,BST
From:    John Gillies <JOHNG@PSY.GLA.AC.UK>
Subject: Spam in Europe

I well remember people eating Spam - especially Spam fritters - in
(immediate) post- war Scotland. Three (disconnected) thoughts occur
to me on the subject:

1. One focus of controversy here in Britain about the D-Day
"Celebrations"  (many veterans' groups were angry that the British
government had planned to turn what should, in the vets' view, be a
solemn occasion into a series of frivolous "celebrations", including
a large "piss-up" in Hyde Park) - was one of the planned "sideshow"
events - a "Spam-cooking contest".

2. When I was a kid, the area of my home town where the upwardly-
mobile settled was known disparagingly as "Spam Valley" - a
reference to the supposed fact that the inhabitants spent all their
income on the outward trappings of social success and were,
accordingly, only able to dine on Spam instead of "real" meat.

3. The old philosophical dictum (origin unknown - to me):
    "I'm pink, therefore I'm Spam."

Forgive these random musings!
John


John Gillies
Department of Psychology
Adam Smith Building
University of Glasgow
Glasgow  G12 8RT                      Tel: (0)41 339 8855 ext.5351
Scotland
                         johng@psy.gla.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 17:05:25 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <smb@NETMGRS.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Spam in Europe

Err Gentlemen,

Having only known Spam through Monty Python sketches, could anyone inform
the community about the ingredients of said product, and give the
reasons why it is the elixir of life?

Frankly I'm a faggot man myself.

Steve Baldwin
smb@netmgrs.co.uk

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 12:16:57 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Spam in Europe

All this spam reminds me of a (probably apocryphal) story about Vienna
sausages I picked up out of Reader's digest 20 years ago.  Seems in early
'45, a British unit in northern Italy had been living on cans of Vienna
sausages as the mainstay of its food ration for entirely too long.  One
night while listening to the radio, the BBC broadcast that allied bombers
had struck at Vienna.  A voice arose out of the darkness, "I hope to hell
they got that bloody factory!" (-:

ken koester
maint2@ers.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 11:32:59 CDT
From:    Robert Hohlt <rhohlt@MGMSERV1.MGM.SAIC.COM>
Subject: Bangalore Torpedos

Ok experts,


Has there ever been a mixed drink named after this device (Bangalore Torpedo)?


Robert Hohlt, Jr.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 12:51:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: P-61 radar

One of the things us old Bell System types heard many years ago was that
the P-61 had to be a big aircraft to house and carry the original Western
Electric Co radar which was a very large piece of gear.  (It was one of the
first, if not the first, AI radar to go into mass production in the US.)
Then four years later, they were hanging AI radar in little radomes on
P-38Ms, F6Fs, F4Us, etc.  Makes you stop and think about the rapid technical
develpments during the war.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 12:49:34 -0400
From:    Emery Ford <eford@DELPHI.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spam in Europe

>
>
>Unfortunately, SPAM was widely exported to the allies, including Russia.
>
>Also, unfortunately, I have a quote by Stalin regarding SPAM, but can't locate
>it at the moment, it seems.
>
>The opinion in Russia is about the same as it was here (and still is).  About
>the best they could say is that it kept you alive.  :-)

I'm particularly interested in a Stalin quote on Spam.   It would seem to me
that the Russians should love the stuff since I thought they had a shortage of
adequate meat in their diets.

By the way, are there books out there that cover most of Stalin's famous, as
well as infamous, quotes?

--Emery
.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 10:22:46 CDT
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: WWII-L Meeting at Jefferson Barracks

The WWII event went well at Jefferson Barracks, despite the poor
weather.  Unfortunately, no one met me at the 11th Panzer campsite at
11am.  If you were at the event, we missed each other.

The weather dominated the events on Saturday.  The normal German
encampment area was so waterlogged that my unit chose a site next to the
horse stables.  Friday night unit members moved into the hayloft of the
barn due to the stream of water flowing through their Zeltbahn tents.
It made for a more interesting and realiztic setting for the 11th
Panzer, for that is a more realistic choice for a long term stay.

The weather Saturday poured all morning until about 10am, and then broke
becoming a light drizzle.  It stayed like that all afternoon.  It was
decided to hold only one battle, which kicked off around 1:30.  The
battle went well, however the small number of attendees in the crowd and
poor weather made for a quick battle.  The displays went on for the rest
of the afternoon.

The USO Show and dance was the one of the best I've seen--the facility
used, the JB mess hall is huge, and well suited for the dance.  It is
about the soze of three basketball courts, and about 1/3 of that was a
dance floor.  All the tables were filled to capacity.  The big band
Sentimental Journey played and did a terriffic job.  My only complaint
was for the second song of the Jitterbug Contest they played Elvis
Presley's "Jailhouse Rock", which prompted several reenactor to boo, and
several ask--"Elvis who?" If you are going to have a jitterbug,
jitterbug to swing music.  The other low point of the evening was the
Achey Breaky Heart polka line dance.  Can't we ever escape from this
song even in 1944?

Despite those two detractors, the jitterbug contest had several terriffi
c couples and the winners deserved to win.  They also did a line march
to the various organizational themes ("As the caisson's go rolling
along") which got all the reenactors involved and mixed with the general
public.  It was a hoot to say the least.

One particularly unusal part of this event was the appearance of two
prostitutes who were soliciting reenactors.  I've never seen anything
like this before, or heard of anything like it before at an event.  They
ended up coming back to the campsites and trying to get business
there--they even went into the hayloft, however no one was interested
and they left frustrated.  I was shocked that they were at this event,
however it didadd an element of realism I've never seen before.

Sunday was a terriffic day, and I went to the militaria show.  It was
quite good, however pricey.  I purchased a WWII officers notebook, with
an Army Eagle and branch insignia all around the sides for $5, two
framed Varga cards for $25, and an aircraft recognition manual for $25.

The schedule was for one battle on Sunday at 1:00pm.  The battle went
well, and lasted for about 45 minutes because the 11th Panzer Armored
car crew wanted to drain their propane tanks for their MG and
cannon--they just refused to die for about 15 minutes longer than
expected which dragged the battle out--much to everyone's enjoyment.

Overall it was a good event and I am sorry that others missed it.  The
scuttlebut was that the event may be held twice a year, to include the
USO show.  I hope this is true, and it happens, for it was a good time.

I'm hoping to try again next year to have a meeting, so mark your
calenders.  TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 18:45:05 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVSDS.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: Question: Cannon/Machine Gun

On Tue, 3 May 1994, Peter de Lange wrote:

> When dealing in aircraft, what is the difference between a cannon and
> a machine gun. Both are rapid fire? Is it a question of accuracy or rifle
> barrling?

It is a complicated decision, based on muzzle velocity (determining range,
accuracy, and to some extent the damage inflicted), the damage inflicted by
larger or explosive bullets, rate of fire (important because the enemy
aircraft is only in the gunsight for a very brief time), weight, drag,
ammunition supply, and reliability. During WWII several policies were
adopted.

Before WWII, the British tested a number of guns to select a new one to
replace the old 0.303 (7.7mm) Vickers mg still fitted in most of their
aircraft. At that time they found that the .50 (12.7mm) mg did little more
damage than the .303, and was less reliable. The 20mm cannon was slow-firing,
heavy and unreliable. So they decided to fit eight .303 Colt guns in their
new fighters.  As the war went on it became increasingly clear that the .303
lacked hitting power; the new, fast aircraft were much sturdier than that of
WWI. It was considered to fit 12 .303 mgs in the fighters, but finally the
20mm cannon was adopted. The first experiments with 20mm had been a failure;
they were too heavy, unreliable, and drum-fed -- the drum contained only a
small number of cartridges and caused much drag. Later the 20mm Hispano
cannon was developed into a much better weapon, and it became the standard
weapon for RAF fighters. The Hawker Tempest carried four 20mm cannon,
completely buried in a rather thin wing.

The USAF had adopted the .50 mg for its fighters, usually six guns, eight in
the P-47. The .50 was also found in the gun turrets of its bombers.  The .50
was unable to damage the structure of modern aircraft; you had to hit the
fuel tanks, ammunition or pilot with it. It was acceptable for the US because
it mainly had to deal with enemy fighters, --- and that included the Japanese
aircraft with their light construction and lack of armor. The .50 was
certainly not entirely satisfactory, but its deficiency was not clear until
the Korean war.

The Luftwaffe began the war with a mix of 7.9mm and 13mm mgs and 20mm cannon.
The early 20mm MG FF cannon had a low muzzle velocity; later weapons as the
MG 151/20 were much better. It was found out, however, that even 20mm cannon
were not powerful enough to bring down the B-17s in a single firing pass.
Towards the end of the war, many German fighters had 30mm cannon. They were
designed to be light, had a low muzzle velocity, but great hitting power.  A
problem for the Luftwaffe was that its fighters were not suitable for such
heavy armament; especially the performance and handling of the Me 109
suffered badly.

The Japanese and Russians built relatively light and small aircraft, so
they had to fit less armament. The USSR quickly adopted 20mm cannon, but
fitted only one or two to most fighters, and added a few mgs. The Japanese
basically took the same decision, but were somewhat slower in their
development.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 13:04:42 -0400
From:    "J.M.Ruel" <ad388@DAYTON.WRIGHT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spam in Europe

SPAM is mostlt composed og pork shoulder, ground and seasoned. It is sold as
aluncheon loaf under the disguise of " Spiced Luncheon Loaf." It has a high
fat content along with pleanty of salt and nitrates and nitrites. I never
thought it so bad. Fried with scrambled eggs it takes the place of bacon or
ham. I have had worse from "c" rations. Corned beef hash was my all time bad
meal. I usually tried to get the pork and beans or spaghetti.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 11:41:47 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: P-61 Black Widow

Hello, John!

Thanks for the note.

> Interesting information. Just one correction.  The name is spelled with
> an O, not a U.  Its Jack Northrop.  It amazes me how many people think it
> is the other way.  That is all.

    Yeah! I didn't really pay attention to the spelling. Northrup is
the Norwegian spelling and -op is the Anglicized version.

    Thanks again.

    Terry


Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 11:33:34 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: TAC: River Platte (Graf Spee)

Hello, Bengt!

> I would like to say to this that it may say something about Doenitz, but it
> doesn't say much about the nazification of the German Navy.

    I agree with that sentiment. It was very difficult for the Nazi
Party to make itself felt in a submarine that is thousands of miles
away from home base away from such influences.

> Did these statements change the actions and convictions of the average
> German sailor? I'm sure you could find similar statements from Goering,
> but if you did, would that say anything about the political opinions of
> the pilots of the Luftwaffe? I think not.

    Not really.

> I can't back this up with any figures, but I would think that many of the
> officers of the Kriegsmarine were men who had fought in the old Imperial
> Navy. So it wouldn't surprise me if they had very little sympathy for
> the Nazis. The fact that a man like Langsdorff rose to command a ship that
> at the time was the pride of the German Navy must say something about the
> failure to nazify the navy.

    Many of the submariners came to the German Navy in 1935 at the
time of the rearmament and expansion of the service. Many of those
selected for the duty were idealists and not motivated out of
political intent.


> Besides, was there ever during the 1930's or during the war a serious
> attempt to remove Non-Nazi officers from the Wehrmacht and to promote
> Party members instead? I don't know, but perhaps someone else does?

    After 1944 and the bomb plot attempts were made to ensure loyalty
and security. You might consider the case of FM Walther Model who,
happened not only to be a competent officer, but a zealous Nazi. So
was FM Ferdninand Schoerner. Consider the appointment of Heinrich
Himmler as C-in-C of Army Group Vistula after July 20, 1944. All
these were top political appointments based on their Party loyalty.
Model and Schoerner were both good officers, whereas Himmler was a
different case entirely.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 15:47:24 +0000
From:    David Rising <drising@IO.ORG>
Subject: Re: Spam in Europe

On Tue, 3 May 1994, Stephen Baldwin wrote:

> Err Gentlemen,
>
> Having only known Spam through Monty Python sketches, could anyone inform
> the community about the ingredients of said product, and give the
> reasons why it is the elixir of life?

I was waiting for somebody to bring up that sketch. I haven't been able
to read my E-Mail these days without thinking of it. FYI, SPAM is an
acronym for _Spiced Ham_. It's really made of pork products (not your
finest Black Forest variety) and spices and packed neatly into a can.
IMHO it's terrible, but I guess it beats starving.
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 13:32:24 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Spam in Europe

A more 'memorable' (as in, hideous) item of wartime food was POWDERED EGG.
The word "Yuk!" cannot possibly do justice to that well-meaning abomination.
Intended to help the hapless British public (and military) augment their
weekly ration of one real egg, powdered egg was supplied by the Ministry
of Food. This yellow powder, purportedly made from dried eggs, was mixed
with water for cooking in various ways.  When fried, powdered egg resulted
in a rubberoid object that would have performed quite well as a repair-patch
for automobile tires.  :-)

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 15:04:27 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: German Navy 1936

Hello, again, Norrin!

Just a quick note to tell you that the correct title for the book I
quoted you earlier today is entitled: "Hitler's Naval War" by Cajus
Bekker. It is thorough and there are many appendices that deal with
specific aspects of German naval developments. Will try to find
others.

More later.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 15:08:40 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@CCLINK.LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 05-03-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr44.txt

1944
05/03 Wed.  United States naval vessels damaged:
             Destroyer escort DONNELL (DE-56), by submarine
              torpedo, North Atlantic area.
             Destroyer escort MENGES (DE-320), by submarine
              torpedo, western Mediterranean area.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 16:38:48 -0400
From:    Ron Babuka <wrb1@CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: Re: INF: USN Chronology 3 May 1944

>UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
>from:
>//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr44.txt
>


I decided to cruise this site and looked up some info relating to my father
and the vessel he served on and found:

- 12/03  Sun  United States naval vessel sunk:
- Destroyer COOPER (DD-695), by torpedo from undetermined source, Ormoc
Bay, P. - I., 10 d. 54'N., 124 d. 36'E.
- United States naval vessels damaged, Ormoc Bay, P. I.:
- Destroyer ALLEN M. SUMNER (DD-691), by horizontal bomber.
-                                10 d. 54'N., 124 d. 36'E.
-                        Destroyer MOALE (DD-693), by naval gunfire,
-                                10 d. 54'N 124 d. 36'E.

Only problem is that the ALLEN M. SUMNER was DD-692 NOT DD-691 so I am
curious as to who created and is maintaining this post? Is this official
Naval History or is this a post created from "unofficial" naval histories?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka                                         National Warplane Museum
Cornell University                                 Geneseo, New York
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 15:47:30 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Tirpitz

For William Ely III --
        Re: Stalag Luft III...

There are two new books just out that may be of interest to you, both
no doubt sparked by the recent 50th anniversary of the Great Escape from
Stalag Luft III and the Gestapo murders of 50 of the RAF escapers.
        BOLDLY TO THE FOE: ALLIED AIRCREW PRISONERS-OF-WAR IN GERMANY,
                1939-1942, by Charles Rollings.
        MOONLESS NIGHT: ONE MAN'S STRUGGLE FOR FREEDOM, 1940-1945,
                by B.A. Jimmy James.
Rollings is an excellent author, with several other well-researched
books to his credit.
        Pilor Officer James' is a more personal story. He escaped repeatedly
from German PW camps, finally from Luft III in March, 1944. He was one of
the few not shot in reprisal after recapture.  Instead, he was sent to the
infamous Sachsenhausen concentration camp. P/O James even managed to escape
from there, but was caught again, and put in the Death Block. He was reprieved
only by being taken by the SS as a hostage, along with many 'political
prominenten', to be held in Hitler's Tyrolean Redoubt. There, he was
finally liberated by American troops.
        Both books from: Sentinel Publishing, 38 St. Ann's Road,
                         London N15 6DU, England.
Rollings' study is 1000 (one thousand) pages long, so it costs 35 pounds STLG
James' costs only US$23, trade paperback.
Both fascinating reading, how it was to be a 'Kriegie'.
(Not a bit as merry a time as they showed on "Hogan's Heroes")

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 15:57:54 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Question: Cannon/Machine Gun

Nice summary, Emmanuel...
        One odd factor in the RAF's decision to stick with .303 calibre
(oops, sorry, caliBER, to you) in 1930, was the fact the British then
still had an enormous stock of .303 ammo from the First World War.
The RAF chose the American Colt/Browning m.g. design, but had it
re-tooled for .303 -- something we all had reason to regret throughout
WW2. Rifle-calibre m.g. ammo proved awfully inadequate in a modern air
war. It was not until late 1944 that RAF gunners got what we deserved,
the Rose Turret with four Fifties  (.50's)

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 17:29:42 -0700
From:    Gerry Walker <GWALKER@CRC.SD68.NANAIMO.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: P-61 Black Widow

This is super stuff, Peter.

Thanks,

Cheers,

Gerry Walker

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 03:07:28 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVSDS.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: Question: Cannon/Machine Gun

On Tue, 3 May 1994, Sidney Allinson wrote:

>         One odd factor in the RAF's decision to stick with .303 calibre
> (oops, sorry, caliBER, to you) in 1930, was the fact the British then
> still had an enormous stock of .303 ammo from the First World War.
> The RAF chose the American Colt/Browning m.g. design, but had it
> re-tooled for .303 -- something we all had reason to regret throughout
> WW2. Rifle-calibre m.g. ammo proved awfully inadequate in a modern air
> war. It was not until late 1944 that RAF gunners got what we deserved,
> the Rose Turret with four Fifties  (.50's)

To be precise: the gun retooled for .303 ammunition was the .30 Colt, not
the .50 Colt. Had also something to do with the type of cartridge; I
think British cartridges were rimmed and US cartridges not, or the other
way around.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 21:53:52 EDT
From:    John Mcclintock <johnthev@AOL.COM>
Subject: five rules

I don't know if this is an item of personal or general army lore.  My father,
who served in Europe from 1943 to 1946, told me about "five rules."  I can
only remember three for sure:

1. move your bowels once a day
2. make five copies
3. stay out of headquarters

a fourth may have been : 4. never volunteer

Does anyone have a similar set?

Thanks.  John McClintock

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 2 May 1994 to 3 May 1994
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 48 messages totalling 2103 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. NOST: "The War Without SPAM"
  2. Question: Cannon/Machine Gun (2)
  3. Spam in Europe (4)
  4. TAC: River Platte (Graf Spee)
  5. INF: USAAF 4 MAY 44
  6. USAAF Night Fighter Squadrons
  7. USMC Night Fighter Units
  8. P-61 radar
  9. unsubbing
 10. N American Aerobatic Team Skeds
 11. German Navy 1936
 12. MOnte Cassino
 13. P-61 Black Widow
 14. MEDIA: Combat! marathon (13)
 15. INF: USN Chronology 05-04-94
 16. World War II U.S. Radio Traitors--Berlin Calling
 17. OK!  That DOES it!  SUBJECT HEADINGS (2)
 18. GEN: Spielberg Certificate.
 19. ADMIN: Vacation
 20. INF: German uniform question (2)
 21. MEDIA: WWII TV shows (4)
 22. Re[2]: INF: German uniform question
 23. TRV: World War II Television (2)
 24. German paratroopers dropped sans chutes? (2)
 25. German paratroopers ...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 23:18:09 -0500
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: NOST: "The War Without SPAM"

The following was a UPI article written in 1991.  I had received permission
then to reprint it once, so I'm sure they won't worry about me not asking
this time.  :-)

There's no comment here from Stalin, but there is one (fairly complimentary
and bland) from Kruschev.  I'm begining to think that the Stalin quote might
be anecdotal.

And no, I also don't know any book(s) dedicated to the spoken "words of wisdom"
of Josef Stalin... :-)





THE WAR WITHOUT SPAM
Jack Lesar
United Press International

If an army truly travels on its stomach, U.S. troops in the Persian
Gulf are traveling light. At the request of the Saudi government,
Americans are going to war without SPAM, a staple of the military diet
since World War II.

`A war without SPAM is like a day without grumbling,' said a Marine
cook at Camp Lajeune, N.C. `It's the meat grunts (infantry) love to
hate.'

`They like to gripe about it but they appreciate it,' a Marine Corp
spokesman said. `It tastes pretty good when you haven't got anything
else. Some of them'll probably miss it.'

Produced by Geo. A. Hormel & Co. of Austin, Minn., SPAM is a tinned
luncheon meat made from ham and pork shoulder. It keeps indefinitly
without refrigeration -- an attribute which has made it a military
mainstay since World War II.

But Saudi Arabia, where U.S. troops are assembled for operations
against Iraqi occupation forces in Kuwait, is a Muslim country. Islamic
dietary rules forbid pork, so the Saudis asked the Americans leave their
SPAM behind.

`We're complying with their wishes,' a Defense Department spokesman
said.

So when the Defense Department started handing out contracts to
supply the troops, there was nothing in the coffer for SPAM. But Hormel
did land a $44 million contract for its `Top Shelf' packaged meals,
which resemble frozen dinners but require no refrigeration.

A longtime Army cook who served in Vietnam and was preparing to
depart for Saudi Arabia, and his second war, said the SPAM ban was
`sort of a break with tradition -- a break with history.'

SPAM is undoubtedly a part of military history. Introduced in 1937,
tons of the canned meat were eaten by allied troops during World War II.
It was also a staple for troops in Korea and Vietnam.

`During World War II, of course, I ate my share of SPAM along with
millions of other soldiers,' the late President Dwight D. Eisenhower,
supreme commander of the allied troops during World War II, said in a
1966 letter to the company.

`I'll even confess to a few unkind remarks about it -- uttered during
the strain of battle, you understand,' Eisenhower wrote. `But as
former commander in chief, I believe I can still officially forgive you
your only sin: sending us so much of it.'

Even the late Soviet Premier Nikita Khrushchev, who was a soldier
during World War II, had fond memories of SPAM.

`There were many jokes going around in the army, some of them off-color,
about American SPAM,' he wrote in his memoirs, "Khrushchev Remembers."
`It tasted good, nonetheless.  Without SPAM, we wouldn't have been able
to feed our army.'

Former British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher recalled SPAM as a
`wartime delicacy.'

That was underscored by Edward R. Morrow in a 1942 Christmas broadcast
from war-ravaged Britain.

`This is London,' the famed correspondent reported. `Although the
Christmas table will not be lavish, there will be SPAM for everyone.'

Reprinted at one time with permission.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 21:33:55 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Question: Cannon/Machine Gun

Emmanuel...
It was British ammunition that was rimmed.
BTW: Early in the war, a big shipment of US-made Lee-Enfield rifles was
sent to Britain, and issued to the Home Guard units. Though the Lee-Enfield
was a British design, and the then-standard rifle of the British Army, it
was in .303 calibre. The US made Lee Enfields were .30 cal. So a red band
was painted around the muzzle of the American LEs, to indicate they used
different ammunition.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 22:49:40 +0200
From:    John Ausland <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: Re: Spam in Europe

This is the text of a message on the list:
Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 17:50:38 -0400
From:    Emery Ford <eford@DELPHI.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Spam in Europe

Hello all!
        Hopefully nobody will get too upset at my excusion into the obscure.
I was wondering if our national pride and glory, Spam, was exported in
massive quantities to Europe and the Soviet Union during WWII.  Also,
was Spam included in the rations for U.S. GIs?  Does anybody have any
quotations of comments from foreign nationals who tried Spam?  I'm sure if
the Russians tried it they may have converted from Communism long ago.

        An annual Spam eater,

                --Emery

Comment:  Now there is a subject one can really sink his teeth into.  While I
was in England during the preparations for our landing in Normandy, I had
a meal once with an English girl in a hotel in Exeter.  When I asked for a menu,
she just laughed.  The only thing offered was spam, spuds, and brussels
sprouts.  She commented that she would never forgive us for spam.  (Sorry,
Emery, but that is what she said.  You asked for it.)

If spam was served to us in meals, I do not recall it.  Hence, it could not have
been very often.  At night, when in combat, we enjoyed K rations.  These
sometimes contained a piece of spam-like meat, as I recall, along with some
crackers, a couple of cigarettes, a bit of chocolate, and toilet paper.
(The Army, if nothing else, was thorough.)

The ten-in-one rations (food for ten men for one day), which were not bad, may
also have contained spam or something like it.

  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 10:03:08 +0200
From:    Bengt Nilsson <BenNi@BIBL.LIU.SE>
Subject: Re: TAC: River Platte (Graf Spee)

>> Besides, was there ever during the 1930's or during the war a serious
>> attempt to remove Non-Nazi officers from the Wehrmacht and to promote
>> Party members instead? I don't know, but perhaps someone else does?
>
>    After 1944 and the bomb plot attempts were made to ensure loyalty
>and security. You might consider the case of FM Walther Model who,
>happened not only to be a competent officer, but a zealous Nazi. So
>was FM Ferdninand Schoerner. Consider the appointment of Heinrich
>Himmler as C-in-C of Army Group Vistula after July 20, 1944. All
>these were top political appointments based on their Party loyalty.
>Model and Schoerner were both good officers, whereas Himmler was a
>different case entirely.
>
>Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
>P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
>fax 806-371-5370

Hello, Terry!

When discussing the nazification of the Wehrmacht the events of July
1944 certainly are an interesting example. The conspiracy against
Hitler involved a large number of people from the very highest rank
all the way down. If there had been a succesful nazification, how
could these men have remained in the Wehrmacht?

Look at what happened in the Soviet Union during the 1930's when Stalin
executed most of his top military men and also many on the lower levels
and compare that with Germany. I would think that Hitler couldn't
possibly have attempted to do the same because he needed a well
functioning miltary machine for his purposes and also because the
Wehrmacht would not have accepted it. They just weren't nazified
enough to swallow something like that.

Bengt Nilsson
Benni@Bibl.LiU.SE

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 07:03:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: INF: USAAF 4 MAY 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
THURSDAY, 4 MAY 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, a single B-24 bombs Akyab; 12
B-25s damage a bridge at Kalemyo and bomb Tiddim; 24 B-24s bomb Mandalay
marshalling yard and barracks and the general area at Maymyo; 2 P-51s knock
out a bypass bridge near Shweli.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 8 P-40s hit gun positions at
Pailochi; 2 B-25s strafe 12 sampans between Hong Kong and the Luichow
Peninsula, killing many soldiers on board.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 338: 591 bombers and 516
fighters are dispatched to Berlin, Brunswick and targets in C Germany; the
mission is recalled due to cloud cover but 40 B-17s bomb Bergen/Alkmaar
Airfield, The Netherlands; 1 B-17 is damaged beyond repair and 15 damaged;
2 airmen are KIA and 1 WIA. Escort is provided by 50 P-38s, 179 P-47s and
287 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-51s; the P-47s claim 8-2-5 Luftwaffe
aircraft and the P-51s claim 1-0-1; 2 P-47s and 1 P-51 are lost, 3 P-47s
and 2 P-51s are damaged beyond repair and 1 P-38 and 8 P-47s are damaged; 1
airman is WIA and 3 MIA.
  HQ 95th Combat Bombardment Wing (Heavy) moves from Ketteringham to
Halesworth, England.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, 170+ B-26s and 36 A-20s
bomb gun emplacements and other military targets at Etretat/Sainte-Marie-Au-
Bosc, Etaples, Le Treport, Ault, Fecamp and Ouistreham.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, main effort again is
against lines of communications; medium bombers hit bridges, tracks and
marshalling yards; P-40s, A-36s and P-47s hit rail lines in and around
Priverno, guns and radar station N of Anzio, railroad cars, rail lines, and
bridge in the Orte-Attigliano and Orte-Narni areas, motor transport and
stores E of Frascati, marshalling yards at Colleferro and Follonica, and
trucks and personnel on the Fondi-Pico road; vessels at Leghorn and numerous
railroad targets at scattered points are attacked.
  Flight of the 5th Combat Mapping Squadron, 3d Photographic Group
(Reconnaissance), operating from San Severo, Italy returns to base at
Pomigliano, Italy with F-5s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): 12 B-25s, based at Makin Island,
pound Jaluit and Wotje Atolls, using Majuro Atoll as a shuttle base for
rearming between the strikes. 39 B-24s from Kwajalein and Eniwetok Atolls hit
Ponape Island.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 24
B-25s bomb the Talili Bay area; 43 fighter-bombers hit Vunakanau Airfield;
Allied fighter sweeps over the Bismarck Archipelago continue. 38 P-39s, flying
18 missions, hit several targets on Bougainville Island, including buildings
at Sovele, Tinputs, the Reboine Bay area, Monoitu and in the area N of Taki;
targets of opportunity in the Koromira area are also attacked.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 26 B-24s of
the Thirteenth Air Task Force bomb Mokmer Airfield; 60+ B-24s, B-25s, A-20s
and P-47s pound airfields, road, bridges, shipping, barges and other targets
in the Wewak area; A-20s attack bridges over the Awar River and targets of
opportunity in the Hansa Bay area while fighter-bombers hit targets of
opportunity in the Ramu River Valley and on the Hansa Bay coast.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 07:12:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: USAAF Night Fighter Squadrons

                          US ARMY AIR FORCES NIGHT
                          FIGHTER SQUADRONS IN WWII


6th NIGHT FIGHTER SQUADRON
--------------------------
On 9 Jan 43, the 6th Fighter Squadron, which had been in Hawaii since 1917,
was redesignated the 6th Night Fighter Squadron.
  STATIONS:
    1943: Hawaii (one detachment operated from Guadalcanal Island, Solomon
          Islands, Feb-Sep 43; a second detachment operated from New
          Guinea, Apr-Sep 43)
    1944: Hawaii (detachment operated from Saipan, Marianas Islands,
          Jun-Dec)
    1945: Hawaii (Jan and May-Sep) and Saipan, Marianas Islands (Jan-May);
          detachments operated from Saipan (Jan) and Hawaii (Jan-May 45)
  AIRCRAFT:
    1943: P-70, P-38 and P-47
    1944: P-70, P-47 and P-61
    1945: P-47 and P-61
  OPERATIONS: Combat in Central, South and Southwest Pacific,  Dec 41-14
    Aug 45.


414th NIGHT FIGHTER SQUADRON
----------------------------
Activated on 26 Jan 43.
  STATIONS:
    1943: Florida (Jan-Apr), Algeria (May-Nov) and Sardinia (Nov-Dec); air
          echelon in England, Mar-Jul; detachment in Tunisia (Jul 43)
    1944: Sardinia (Jan-Sep), Corsica (Sep-Oct) and Italy (Oct-Dec);
          detachments operated from Corsica (Jan-Jul) and Sardinia
          (May-Jun)
    1945: Italy (Jan-Aug); detachments operated from Belgium (Jan-Apr) and
          Germany (Apr)
  AIRCRAFT:
    1943: A-20, P-70 & Beaufighter
    1944: Beaufighter
    1945: Beaufighter and P-38
  OPERATIONS: Combat in MTO and ETO, 24 Jul 43-29 Apr 45


415th NIGHT FIGHTER SQUADRON
----------------------------
Activated 10 Feb 43.
  STATIONS:
    1943: Florida (Feb-Apr); Algeria (May-Jun); Tunisia (Jun-Sep); Sicily
          (Sep-Dec); Italy (Dec); air echelon in England (Mar-Jun);
          detachments operated from Italy, Nov-Dec).
    1944: Italy (Jan-Jul); Corsica (Jul-Aug); France (Sep-Dec); detachment
          operated from Italy (Jul-Aug).
    1945: France (Jan-Apr); Germany (Apr-May)
  AIRCRAFT:
    1943: A-20, P-70 and Beaufighter
    1944: Beaufighter
    1945: Beaufighter and P-61
  OPERATIONS: Combat in MTO and ETO, 9 Jul 43-7 May 45


416th NIGHT FIGHTER SQUADRON
----------------------------
Acitvated 20 Feb 43.
  STATIONS:
    1943: Florida (Feb-Apr); England (May-Aug); Algeria (Aug-Sep); Tunisia
          (Sep); Sicily (Sep); Italy (Sep-Dec); detachment operated from
          Algeria (Dec)
    1944: Italy (Jan-Dec); detachments at Algeria (Jan), Sicily (Aug) and
          Corsica (Aug)
    1945: Italy (Jan-May); detachment in France (Jan-Feb)
  AIRCRAFT:
    1943: A-20, P-70 and Beaufighter
    1944: Beaufighter and Mosquito
    1945: Mosquito, A-36 and P-61
  OPERATIONS: Combat in MTO and ETO, 4 Sep 43-3 May 45


417th NIGHT FIGHTER SQUADRON
----------------------------
Activated 20 Feb 43.
  STATIONS:
    1943: Florida (Feb-Apr), Scotland (May), England (May-Aug), Algeria
          (Aug-Dec); detachment in Scotland (May-Jun)
    1944: Algeria (Jan-Apr), Corsica (Apr-Sep), France (Sep-Dec)
    1945: France (Jan-Apr), Germany (Apr-May); detachment in Belgium (Jan)
  AIRCRAFT:
    1943: P-70 and Beaufighter
    1944: Beaufighter
    1945: Beaufighter and P-61
  OPERATIONS: Combat in MTO, 8 Aug 43-28 Mar 45 and in ETO, 25 Apr-9 May 45


418th NIGHT FIGHTER SQUADRON
----------------------------
Activated 1 Apr 43.
  STATIONS:
    1943: Florida (Apr-Sep), New Guinea (Nov-Dec)
    1944: New Guinea (Jan-Sep), Owi, Schouten Islands (Sep-Oct), Morotai
          (Oct-Dec), Mindoro, Philippine Is (Dec)
    1945: Mindoro (Jan-Jul), Okinawa (Jul-Sep)
  AIRCRAFT:
    1943: P-70 and P-38
    1944: P-70, P-38, B-25 and P-61
    1945: P-61 and B-25
  OPERATIONS: Combat in Southwest and Western Pacific, 2 Jan 44-14 Aug 45


419th NIGHT FIGHTER SQUADRON
----------------------------
Activated on 1 Apr 43.
  STATIONS:
    1943: Florida (Apr-Oct), Guadalcanal Is, Solomon Is (Nov-Dec)
    1944: Guadalcanal Is (Jan-Aug), Middleburg Is, New Guinea (Aug-Dec);
          detachments operated from Bougainville Is, Solomon Is (Jan-May),
          New Guinea (Jun-Jul), Noemfoor Is, New Guinea (Jul-Nov), Los Negros
          Is, Admiralty Is (Jun-Aug) and Morotai (Nov-Dec)
    1945: Middleburg Is (Jan-Mar), Palawan, Philippine Is (Mar-Sep);
          detachments operated from Morotai (Jan-Mar), Mindanao, Philippine
          Is (Mar-Jul) and Sulu (Jun-Jul)
  AIRCRAFT:
    1943: P-70 and P-38
    1944: P-70, P-38, A-24 and P-61
    1945: P-38 and P-61
  OPERATIONS: Combat in South and Southwest Pacific, 10 Dec 43-14 Aug 45


420th NIGHT FIGHTER SQUADRON
----------------------------
Activated on 1 Jun 43; disbanded on 31 Mar 44.
  STATIONS:
    1943: Florida
    1944: Florida (Jan), California (Jan-Mar)
  AIRCRAFT
    1943: AT-11, A-20, P-70, BT-13 and C-78
    1944: AT-11, A-20, P-70, BT-13, C-78 and P/YP-61
  OPERATIONS: Replacement training unit, Jun 43-Mar 44


421st NIGHT FIGHTER SQUADRON
----------------------------
Activated 1 May 43.
  STATIONS:
    1943: Flordia (May-Nov)
    1944: New Guinea (Jan-Jun), Owi, Schouten Is (Jun-Oct), Leyte,
          Philippine Is (Oct-Dec); detachment operated from Wakde Is, New
          Guinea (May-Sep)
    1945: Leyte (Jan-Feb), Luzon, Philippine Is (Feb-Jul), Ie Shima Is,
          Ryukyus Is (Jul-Sep); detachment operated from Leyte, Philippine
          Is (Feb-Mar)
  AIRCRAFT
    1943: P-70
    1944: P-70, P-38 and P-61
    1945: P-38 and P-61
  OPERATIONS: Combat in Southwest and Western Pacific, 29 Feb 44-14 Aug 45


422d NIGHT FIGHTER SQUADRON
---------------------------
Activated 1 Aug 43.
  STATIONS:
    1943: Florida (Aug-Dec)
    1944: Florida (Jan-Feb), England (Mar-Jul), France (Jul-Sep), Belgium
          (Sep-Dec)
    1945: Belgium (Jan-Apr), Germany (Apr-May)
  AIRCRAFT
    1943: DB-7 P-70 and YP-61
    1944: P-61, L-6, Oxford, C-78 and A-20
    1945: P-61 and A-20
  OPERATIONS: Combat in ETO, 3 Jul 44-4 May 45


423d NIGHT FIGHTER SQUADRON
---------------------------
Activated 1 Sep 43; redesignated 155th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron
on 22 Jun 44.
  STATIONS:
    1943: Florida (Oct-Dec)
    1944: Florida (Jan), California (Jan-Mar), England (Apr-Jun)
  AIRCRAFT
    1943-44 P-70 and A-20
  OPERATIONS: None


424th NIGHT FIGHTER SQUADRON
----------------------------
Activated 24 Nov 43; disbanded 31 Mar 44.
  STATIONS:
    1943: Forida (Nov-Dec)
    1944: Florida (Jan), California (Jan-Mar)
  AIRCRAFT:
    1944: P-70
  OPERATIONS: Replacement training, Feb-Mar 44


425th NIGHT FIGHTER SQUADRON
----------------------------
Activated 1 Dec 43.
  STATIONS:
    1943: Florida (Dec)
    1944: Florida (Jan), California (Jan-May), England (May-Aug), France
          (Aug-Dec)
    1945: France (Jan-Apr), Germany (Apr-May)
  AIRCRAFT:
    1944: YP-61, A-20, P-70 and P-61
    1945: P-61
  OPERATIONS: Combat in ETO, Jul 44-8 May 45


426th NIGHT FIGHTER SQUADRON
----------------------------
Activated 1 Jan 44.
  STATIONS:
    1944: California (Jan-Jun), India (Aug-Nov), China (Nov-Dec)
    1945: China (Jan-Sep)
  AIRCRAFT:
    1944: P-70 and P-61
    1945: P-61
  OPERATIONS: Combat in CBI, 21 Nov 44-13 Aug 45


427th NIGHT FIGHTER SQUADRON
----------------------------
Activated on 1 Feb 44.
  STATIONS:
    1944: California (Feb-Jul), Italy (Aug-Sep), India (Oct-Dec), Burma
          (Dec); detachment operated from Burma (Nov-Dec) and China (Dec)
    1945: Burma (Jan-May), India (May-Aug), China (Aug); detachments
          operated from China (Jan-Aug)
  AIRCRAFT
    1944: P-70 and P-61
    1945: P-61
  OPERATIONS: Combat in MTO, Sep 44, and in CBI, 23 Nov 44-14 Aug 45.


-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 07:13:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: USMC Night Fighter Units

                    U.S. MARINE CORPS NIGHT FIGHTER
                        UNITS IN WORLD WAR II

MARINE AIRCRAFT GROUP 53 (MAG-53)
---------------------------------
MAG-53 was commissioned 1 Apr 43 at MCAS Cherry Point, New Bern, North
Carolina, the Marine Corps' first night-figter group.  During Mar 44 the
group went to NAS Vero Beach, Vero Beach, Florida for training for night
operations.  The group transferred to MCAS Eagle Mountain Lake, Newark,
Texas in Nov 44 and remained there until VJ Day.  The group trained a total
of eight night-fighter squadrons and sent seven into combat.


MARINE NIGHT-FIGHTER SQUADRON 531 [VMF(N)-531]
----------------------------------------------
VMF(N)-531 was commissioned on 16 Nov 42 at Cherry Point, North Carolina.
The squadron trained with Lockheed PV-1 Venturas' that had been modified as
night-fighters.  This modification consisted of reducing the crew of five
to three, equipping the aircraft with six forward-firing 50 caliber (12.7
mm) machine-guns and fitting them with British A.I. Mk. IV radar.  The
squadron transferred to MCAS El Centro, El Centro, California.  On 31 Jul
43, they embarked in USS Long Island (CVE-1) at San Diego, California for
Hawaii where the PV-1s were prepared for flight.  The squadron left Hawaii
on 19 Aug 43 for Espiritu Santo Island, New Hebrides Islands, arriving on
25 Aug.  The aircrew arrived in the Russell Islands, Solomon Islands on 11
Sep 43 and they were joined by the ground echelon on 23 Sep 43.
VMF(N)-531 was the first naval-aviation night-fighter squadron in the
South Pacific Area (SOPAC).  (Detachment B of the USAAF's 6th Night Fighter
Squadron began operating from Guadalcanal on 28 Feb 43 with P-70s and was
relieved by the Marines.)  The squadron operated their PV-1s from various
islands in the Solomon Islands including the Russell Islands, Vella Lavella
Island and Bougainville Island until Summer 1944.  The squadron returned to
MCAS Cherry Point, North Carolina in Aug 44 where it was disbanded on 3 Sep
44.  On 9 Oct 44, the squadron was again commissioned as part of Marine
Aircraft Wing 9 (MAW-9).  The squadron transferred to MCAS Eagle Mountain
Lake, Texas on 29 Nov 44 where it remained until VJ Day.


MARINE NIGHT FIGHTER SQUADRON 532 [VMF(N)-532]
----------------------------------------------
VMF(N)-532 was commissioned at MCAS Cherry Point, North Carolina on 1 Apr
43.  The squadron transferred to the West Coast on 24 Dec 43 and departed
San Diego two days later for MCAS Ewa, Oahu, Territory of Hawaii.  They
arrived on Tarawa Atoll, Gilbert Islands with Vought F4U-2 Corsairs on 13
Jan 44 and began flying night combat air patrols (NCAP's).  [NOTE: 12
F4U-1s had been converted to F4U-2s by the Naval Aircraft Factory,
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania by adding a radar pod on the starboard wing and
reducing the six 50 caliber machine guns to four.  These aircraft were used
by the Navy's Night Fighter Squadron 75, VF(N)-75; VF(N)-101 and VMF(N)-532.)
The squadron flew to Roi Island, Kwajalein Atoll, Marshall Islands via Makin
Island, Gilbert Islands on 15 Feb 44; twelve days later, the air echelon went
to Engebi Island, Eniwetok Atoll, Marshall Islands to provide night cover
until 11 Jun 44 and then rejoined the ground echelon on Roi Island.  In
Jun 44, the squadron began night raids against Wotje Atoll, Marshall Islands.
The squadron transferred to Saipan Island, Marianas Islands in Jul 44 and
began NCAP's in the area and later over Guam Island, Marianas Islands.  The
squadron operated in the Marianas Islands until Fall 1944 when they
departed for the US and arrived at MCAD Miramar, San Diego, California, on
25 Oct 44.  In early Dec 44, the squadron transferred to MCAS Eagle
Mountain Lake, Texas where it continued routing training until VJ Day.


MARINE NIGHT FIGHTER SQUADRON 533 [VMF(N)-533]
----------------------------------------------
VMF(N)-533 was commissioned on 1 Oct 43 at MCAS Cherry Point, North
Carolina.  The squadron transferred to the West Coast in early Apr 44 and
on 16 Apr 44, embarked on USS Long Island (CVE-1) for Eniwetok Island,
Eniwetok Atoll, Marshall Islands via Hawaii on 6 May 44 and relieved
VMF(N)-532 on 11 Jun 44.  By this time, the squadron was equipped with
Grumman F6F-5N Hellcats and they were used for night defense of the Eniwetok
area.  The squadron moved to Engebi Island, Eniwetok Atoll on 30 Nov 44 and
continued night operations.  The air echelon flew to Yontan Airfield,
Okinawa Island, Ryukyus Islands on 14 May 45; the ground echelon arrived on
Ie Shima Island, Ryukyus Islands on 20 May and the air echelon transferred
to Ie Shima on 15 Jun 45.  On 14 Jul 45, the squadron moved to Chimu
Airfield, Okinawa where it ended the war.


MARINE NIGHT FIGHTER SQUADRON 534 [VMF(N)-534]
----------------------------------------------
VMF(N)-534 was commissioned on 1 Oct 43 at MCAS Cherry Point, North
Carolina.  The squadron transferred to the West Coast in early Apr 44 and
departed San Diego on 19 Apr 44 in USS Breton (CVE-23) and arrived at
Espiritu Santo Island, New Hebrides Islands on 4 May 44 and trained with
their Grumman F6F-3N Hellcats.  The squadron departed for the Central
Pacific in Jun 44 arriving at Guam Island, Marianas Islands on 4 Aug.  They
flew their first NCAP three days later.  In May 45, part of the squadron
moved to Kobler Airfield, Saipan Island, Marianas Islands, to provide night
air defense of the Saipan-Tinian Islands area, and another section was sent
to Eniwetok Island, Eniwetok Atoll, Marshall Islands to assume night air
defense of the Gilbert-Marshall Islands area.  The squadron continued to
operated at Guam, Eniwetok and Saipan until VJ Day.


MARINE NIGHT FIGHTER SQUADRON 541 [VMF(N)-541]
----------------------------------------------
VMF(N)-541 was commissioned at MCAS Cherry Point, North Carolina on 15 Feb
44.  The squadron sailed from North Island, San Diego on 9 Aug 44 in USS
Long Island (CVE-1) arriving Espiritu Santo Island on 24 Aug.  The ground
echelon sailed for Palau Islands, Caroline Islands, arriving 15 Sep 44.
The air echelon flew their Grumman F6F-3N Hellcats to Emirau Island off
New Guinea and remained there until 24 Sep when the first aircraft were
flown into Peleliu Island, Palau Islands.  The flight ecehlon transferred
to Leyte Island, Philippine Islands at the request of Gneral MacArthur on 3
Dec 44; they returned to Peleliu on 11 Jan 45.  Elements of a flight
echelon were base at Ulithi Atoll, Caroline Islands until 28 Aug 45.


MARINE NIGHT FIGHTER SQUADRON 542 [VMF(N)-542]
----------------------------------------------
VMF(N)-542 was commissioned on 6 Mar 44 at MCAS Cherry Point, North
Carolina.  The air echelon transferred to San Diego and departed in USS
Kitty Hawk (AKV-1) on 29 Aug 44.  The ground echelon departed the West
Coast on 9 Sep 44 in SS Dashing Wave.  The flight echelon arrived at Manus
Island, Admiralty Islands with Grumman F6F-5N Hellcats on 18 Sep 44; on 26
Sep 44, they moved to Pityilu Island off Manus Island.  The ground echelon
arrived Ulithi Atoll, Caroline Islands on 9-12 Oct 44 to be joined by the
air echelon on 29 Oct.  The assault echelon departed Ulithi on 15 Feb 45
for Leyte Island, Philippine Islands; they then proceeded to Okinawa,
Ryukyus Islands where they landed on 8 Apr.  The air echelon departed Ulithi
and arrived Yonton Airfield, Okinawa on 7 Apr 45; the ground echelon
arrived on 1 May.  The squadron moved to Chimu Airfield, Okinawa on 1 Jul
and continued strikes in the Ryukyus area until VJ Day.
moved to Engebi Island, Eniwetok Atoll


MARINE NIGHT FIGHTER SQUADRON 543 [VMF(N)-543]
----------------------------------------------
VMF(N)-543 was commissioned at MCAS Cherry Point, North Carolina on 15 Apr
44.  The squadron transferred to MCAS El Centro, El Centro, California on
30 Sep 44 and departed for MCAS Ewa, Oahu, Territory of Hawaii on 4 Jan 45
with their Grumman F6F-5N Hellcats.  The squadron was divided into three
echelons; the assault echelon departed for Okinawa Island, Ryukyus Islands
on 18-21 Feb 45 in USS Achernar (AKA-53) and USS Meriwether (APA-203); they
arrived at Okinawa on 7 Apr 45 where they were joined two days later by the
air echelon.  The rear echelon arrived 1 May 45.  The squadron moved to Awase
Airfield, Okinawa on 15 Jul 45 where they ended the war.


MARINE NIGHT FIGHTER SQUADRON 544 [VMF(N)-544]
----------------------------------------------
VMF(N)-544 was commissioned at MCAS Cherry Point, North Carolina on 1 May
44.  In late Oct 44, the squadron departed for the West Coast; the air
echelon arrived on 3 Nov joined a week later by the ground echelon.  During
the next two months some pilots were detached from the Squadron and
assigned to carrier duty.  The remainder of the squadron transferred to
MCAS Eagle Mountain Lake, Newark, Texas for duty late in Feb 45 where
training continued until VJ Day.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 07:14:37 -0400
From:    Bob Smart <Bob.Smart@SMART.COM>
Subject: Re: P-61 radar

> One of the things us old Bell System types heard many years ago was that
> the P-61 had to be a big aircraft to house and carry the original Western
> Electric Co radar which was a very large piece of gear.  (It was one of the
> first, if not the first, AI radar to go into mass production in the US.)
> Then four years later, they were hanging AI radar in little radomes on
> P-38Ms, F6Fs, F4Us, etc.  Makes you stop and think about the rapid technical
> develpments during the war.

Jack, don't sell yourselves so short. I wish I could remember where it was but
I remember a book hat discussed the early nightfighters and their radar.

The APS-6 used in the F6F-5N, F4U-4N, etc was much less capable than the
SCR-720 used in the P-61. The SCR-720 formed the basis for most of the
development into the early jet age.

Bob Smart (bsmart@smart.com)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 07:22:08 +0500
From:    douglas g prosser <admindgp@SN571.UTICA.GE.COM>
Subject: unsubbing

could someone send me the unsub info?
I seem to have deleted it

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 08:25:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: N American Aerobatic Team Skeds

J.D. Delancy has kindly updated the U.S. team schedules for this list and
I publically thank him for his efforts.




          NORTH AMERICAN MILITARY AEROBATIC TEAM SCHEDULE, 1994
                           ISSUE 6, 22 MAR 94

The following is the combined schedules for the North American military
aerobatic teams for the 1994 show season and includes schedules for shows
in:

  Canada
  Guam
  Indonesia
  Japan
  Korea
  Malaysia
  Singapore
  Thailand
  United States

This list is sorted by country and Province and State.  The four teams
covered in this post are:

  Canadian Armed Forces Snowbirds
  U.S. Air Force Thunderbirds
  U.S. Army Golden Knights
  U.S. Navy Blue Angels

Any additions, corrections, etc. would be appreciated.  Please e-mail them
to me at jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com.

REASON FOR REISSUE
  1. Add show at Eielson AFB, Alaska.
  2. Add show at Seoul, ROK.
  3. Change the date of the show at Osan AB, ROK.
  4. Add Bangkok, Thailand.
  5. Change the date of the show at Singapore.
  6. Add Indonesia.
  7. Add Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.
  8. Add Andersen AFB, Guam.
  9. Change location of show in Hawaii.
 10. Change date and add location of show in Washington, DC.
 11. Add show at Livermore, California.
 12. Change date for Daytona, Florida show.
 13. Change date for Beale AFB, California.
 14. Add show at Redmond, Oregon.
 15. Change date for Traverse City, Michigan.
 16. Add another show at NAS Pensacola
 17. Add show at Miami, Florida.

I. CANADA
---------

ALBERTA
-------
Edmonton: Snowbirds, 21-22 May
Lethbridge: Golden Knights, 20-21 Aug
Peace River: Snowbirds, 26 Jul
Slave Lake: Snowbirds, 10 May

BRITISH COLUMBIA
----------------
Abbotsford: Snowbirds, 12-14 Aug and Blue Angels, 13-14 Aug
Comox: Snowbirds, 7 Aug
Fort Nelson: Snowbirds, 12 May
Kelowna: Snowbirds, 18 May
Penticton: Snowbirds, 28 Jul
Prince George: Snowbirds, 14-15 May
Sandspit: Snowbirds, 5 May
Vanderhoff: Snowbirds, 23-24 Jul
Victoria: Snowbirds, 17 Aug

MANITOBA
--------
Grand Beach: Snowbirds, 8 Jul
St Andrews (Winnipeg): Snowbirds, 30-31 Jul

NEW BRUNSWICK
-------------
Chatham: Snowbirds, 28 May
Shediac: Snowbirds, 24 Aug

NOVA SCOTIA
-----------
Greenwood: Snowbirds, 29 May
Shearwater: Snowbirds, 17-18 Sep

ONTARIO
-------
Cobden: Snowbirds, 31 May
Hamilton: Snowbirds, 18-19 Jun
London: Snowbirds, 4-5 Jun
Ottawa: Snowbirds, 2-3 Jul
Parry Sound: Snowbirds, 28 Jun
Toronto: Snowbirds, 3-5 Sep
Trenton: Snowbirds, 25-26 Jun

QUEBEC
------
Bagotville: Snowbirds, 11-12 Jun
Gaspe: Snowbirds, 7 Sep
Montmagny: Snowbirds, 15 Jun
Rimouski: Snowbirds, 9 Jun
St George De Beauce: Snowbirds, 5 Jul
St Jean: Snowbirds, 20 Aug
Sept-Iles: Snowbirds, 30 Aug
Sherbrooke: Snowbirds, 21 Aug
Thetford Mines: Snowbirds, 6 Jul
Val D'Or: Snowbirds, 7 Jun

SASKATCHEWAN
------------
Moose Jaw: Snowbirds, 9-10 Jul and 14 Oct

YUKON TERRITORY
---------------
Whitehorse: Snowbirds, 8 May



II. GUAM, MARIANAS ISLANDS
--------------------------
Andersen AFB: Thunderbirds, 23 Aug


III. INDONESIA
--------------
??: Thunderbirds, 20 Aug


IV. JAPAN
---------
Kadena AB (Okinawa): Thunderbirds, 14 Aug
Misawa: Thunderbirds, 10 Aug


V. KOREA
--------
Osan AB: Thunderbirds, 14 Aug
Seoul: THunderbirds, 13 Aug


VI. MALAYSIA
------------
Kuala Lumpur: Thunderbirds, 21 Aug


VII. SINGAPORE
--------------
Singapore: Thunderbirds, 19 Aug


VIII. THAILAND
 -------------
Bangkok: Thunderbirds, 18 Aug


IX. UNITED STATES
-----------------

ALASKA
------
Eielson AFB: Thunderbirds, 7 Aug
Elmendorf AFB: Thunderbirds, 6 Aug

ALABAMA
-------
Anniston: Golden Knights, 15-16 Oct

ARIZONA
-------
Davis-Monthan AFB: Golden Knights, 22 Oct
Glendale: Thunderbirds, 5-6 Nov

ARKANSAS
--------
Little Rock: Snowbirds, 28 Sep

CALIFORNIA
----------
Beale AFB: Golden Knights, 14 May
Castle AFB: Golden Knights, 8 Oct and Thunderbirds, 9 Oct
Livermore: Golden Knights, 10-11 Sep
NAS Lemoore: Thunderbirds, 14-15 May
NAS Miramar: Blue Angels, 19-21 Aug
Redding: Thunderbirds, 25-26 Jun
Salinas: Blue Angels, 15-16 Oct
San Francisco: Blue Angels, 8-9 Oct
Travis AFB: Thunderbirds, 8 Oct
Ukiah: Golden Knights, 11-12 Jun
Van Nuys: Golden Knights, 20-21 Aug

COLORADO
--------
Air Force Academy, Colorado Springs: Thunderbirds, 1 Jun
Broomfield: Thunderbirds & Golden Knights, 30-31 Jul
Sterling: Golden Knights, 18 Jun

DELAWARE
--------
Dover AFB: Thunderbirds & Golden Knights, 7-8 May

DISTRICT OF COLUMBA
-------------------
Washington (Georgetown Univ): Golden Knights, 27 May

FLORIDA
-------
Daytona: Golden Knights, 1-2 Oct
Kissimmee: Snowbirds, 8-9 Oct
Miami: Blue Angels, 5-6 Nov
NAS Jacksonville: Blue Angels, 24-25 Sep
NAS Pensacola: Blue Angels, 16 Jul and 11-12 Nov
Patrick AFB: Golden Knights, 13 Nov
Pensacola Beach: Blue Angels, 16 Jul
Sanford: Thunderbirds, 29-30 Oct

GEORGIA
-------
Ft. Stewart: Golden Knights, 28 Jun
Warner Robins AFB: Thunderbirds & Golden Knights, 22-23 Oct

HAWAII
------
Waikiki Beach: Thunderbirds, 27 Aug

IDAHO
-----
Lewiston: Snowbirds, 21 Jul

ILLINOIS
--------
Chicago: Blue Angels, 27-28 Aug
De Kalb: Golden Knights, 9-10 Jul
Springfield: Blue Angels, 30-31 Jul
West Chicago: Golden Knights, 23-24 Jul

INDIANA
-------
Elkhart: Golden Knights, 3-5 Jun

IOWA
----
Davenport: Blue Angels, 25-26 Jun
Dubuque: Snowbirds, 21 Sep
Sioux City: Golden Knights, 29-31 Jul

KANSAS
------
McConnell AFB: Blue Angels, 18-19 Jun

KENTUCKY
--------
Bowling Green: Thunderbirds & Golden Knights, 24-25 Sep

LOUISIANA
---------
Lake Charles: Thunderbirds, 12-13 Nov
NAS New Orleans: Blue Angels, 29-30 Oct

MARYLAND
--------
Andrews AFB: Blue Angels & Golden Knights, 20-21 May
Georgetown: Golden Knights, 27 May
U.S. Naval Academy, Annapolis: Blue Angels, 23-25 May

MASSACHUSETTS
-------------
Andover: Golden Knights, 30 May
NAS South Weymouth: Thunderbirds & Golden Knights, 11-12 Jun
Otis ANGB: Golden Knights, 13-14 Aug
Westover AFB: Snowbirds & Golden Knights, 27-28 Aug

MICHIGAN
--------
Battle Creek: Thunderbirds, 4 Jul
K.I. Sawyer AFB: Thunderbirds, 2 Jul
Muskegon: Golden Knights, 16-17 Jul
Selfridge ANGB: Blue Angels, 11-12 Jun
Traverse City: Blue Angels, 4-5 Jul

MINNESOTA
---------
Alexandria: Golden Knights, 13-14 Aug

MISSOURI
--------
Columbia: Golden Knights, 28-29 May
St Louis: Snowbirds, 24-25 Sep

NEVADA
------
Nellis AFB: Thunderbirds, 20 Nov

NEW HAMPSHIRE
-------------
Concord: Golden Knights, 25-26 Jun

NEW JERSEY
----------
Atlantic City: Golden Knights, 2-3 Jun
McGuire AFB: Blue Angels, 1-2 Oct

NEW MEXICO
----------
Cannon AFB: Golden Knights, 27 Aug
Roswell: Blue Angels, 7-8 May
Tucumcari: Golden Knights, 8 Oct

NEW YORK
--------
Brooklyn: Golden Knights, 2-4 Jul
Elmira: Golden Knights, 2-3 Jul
Scotia: Thunderbirds, 10-11 Sep

NORTH CAROLINA
--------------
Fayetteville: Golden Knights, 13 Sep
Ft. Bragg: Golden Knights, 4 Jul
Morganton: Golden Knights, 8 Oct

NORTH DAKOTA
------------
Minot: Blue Angels, 23-24 Jul

OHIO
----
Cleveland: Blue Angels & Golden Knights, 3-5 Sep
Dayton: Thunderbirds & Golden Knights, 23-24 Jul
Hamilton: Golden Knights, 4-5 Jun

OKLAHOMA
--------
Muskogee: Thunderbirds, 1-2 Oct
Oklahoma City: Snowbirds & Golden Knights, 16-17 Jul

OREGON
------
Portland: Thunderbirds, 16-17 Jul
Redmond: Blue Angels, 7-8 May

PENNSYLVANIA
------------
Avoca: Thunderbirds & Golden Knights, 28-29 May
Latrobe: Thunderbirds & Golden Knights, 3-4 Sep
NAS Willow Grove: Thunderbirds, 18-19 Jun
Williamsport: Golden Knights, 25-26 Jun

SOUTH CAROLINA
--------------
Florence: Snowbirds, 5 Oct
Myrtle Beach: Thunderbirds, 5 Jun

TENNESSEE
---------
Chattanooga: Blue Angels, 28-29 May
Gray: Golden Knights, 22-25 Aug
NAS Memphis: Blue Angels & Golden Knights, 10-11 Sep

TEXAS
-----
El Paso: Snowbirds & Golden Knights, 1-2 Oct
Ft. Worth: Blue Angels, 22-23 Oct
Goodfellow AFB: Thunderbirds, 22 May
Houston: Thunderbirds, 15-16 Oct
Kelly AFB: Thunderbirds & Golden Knights, 21 May
Laughlin AFB: Thunderbirds, 18 Sep
NAS Corpus Christi: Blue Angels, 14-15 May
Sheppard AFB: Thunderbirds, 17 Sep

VERMONT
-------
Burlington: Blue Angels & Golden Knights, 17-18 Sep

VIRGINIA
--------
Langley AFB: Golden Knights, 6 Aug
Manassas: Golden Knights, 17-18 Sep
NAS Oceana: Snowbirds, 10-11 Sep

WASHINGTON
----------
Pasco: Golden Knights, 24-25 Sep
Seattle: Blue Angels, 6-7 Aug and Snowbirds, 6 Aug

WEST VIRGINIA
-------------
Beaver: Golden Knights, 6-7 Aug
Huntington: Blue Angels, 4-5 Jun

WISCONSIN
---------
Eau Claire: Blue Angels & Golden Knights, 9-10 Jul

WYOMING
-------
F.E. Warren AFB: Thunderbirds, 27 Jul

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 13:37:25 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <smb@NETMGRS.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Spam in Europe

>       > Err Gentlemen,
>       >
>       > Having only known Spam through Monty Python sketches, could anyone inform
>       > the community about the ingredients of said product, and give the
>       > reasons why it is the elixir of life?
>
>       I was waiting for somebody to bring up that sketch. I haven't been able
>       to read my E-Mail these days without thinking of it. FYI, SPAM is an
>       acronym for _Spiced Ham_. It's really made of pork products (not your
>       finest Black Forest variety) and spices and packed neatly into a can.
>       IMHO it's terrible, but I guess it beats starving.
>       David Rising
>
I am most grateful to David for this information, and to everyone
for raising this much ignored feature of the War. Is it Spam
Vera Lynn had in mind when she sang "We'll meat again etc"? No -
don't answer that...

I shall most certainly raise the issue of Spam
on WWI-L when it gets going.

Anyway, the mystery tis solved, and I can rest easy in my bed...

BTW - to answer another question from Scott Jones...
>     Just out of curiosity, what did you mean when you wrote:
>
>     "Frankly I'm a faggot man myself."
I have to urge Scott to rectify this gap in his knowledge ASAP.
Brain's Faggots are an institution that I simply cannot bring myself to
describe. All I can say is, blame your forefathers for booting the
Brits out of the colonies thereby causing you to forego this
gastronomic experience. OTOH, search out Faggots if you ever come over
this side....

I thank you (c) Clan Wolf @ CONSIM-L

Steve Baldwin
smb@netmgrs.co.uk

PS - I received a couple of private replies to my question -
attached for your information, edification, and enjoyment.

From: Burt Knight
=================
Smoked Pork and hAM.  As to elixir of life, Vegamite or Marmite has a lot better
flavor and I much prefer eating cardboard to SPAM


From: Jones, Scott T.
=====================
     Steven;

     I will be glad to pass on the list of ingredients to you tomorrow if
     you wish. Personally, I do not think SPAM is as bad as most people
     like to say it is. Of course, this comes from a man who has eaten
     around 500  pounds of it during his 29 years on Planet Earth! Anyway,
     tomorrow I will post what the SPAM makers CLAIM are the ingredients.

     Just out of curiosity, what did you mean when you wrote:

     "Frankly I'm a faggot man myself."

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 07:52:03 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: German Navy 1936

Hello, again, Norrin!

I have found a few sources that may be of interest to you in
reference to the German Navy and its composition in 1936.


The History of the German Navy by Edward P. von der Porten

My Life by Grand Admiral Erich Raeder

Ten Years and Twenty Days by Grand Admiral Karl Doenitz

Hope these help.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 14:02:40 GMT,BST
From:    John Gillies <JOHNG@PSY.GLA.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Spam in Europe

Steve Baldwin writes:
> I am most grateful to David for this information, and to everyone
> for raising this much ignored feature of the War. Is it Spam
> Vera Lynn had in mind when she sang "We'll meat again etc"? No -
> don't answer that...

Sorry, but I'm going to. Dame Vera (Gawd bless 'er) had a quite
different wartime meat substitute in mind when she sang feelingly..
("Whale meat again!...)

John


John Gillies
Department of Psychology
Adam Smith Building
University of Glasgow
Glasgow  G12 8RT                      Tel: (0)41 339 8855 ext.5351
Scotland
                         johng@psy.gla.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 07:06:37 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: MOnte Cassino

Hello, George!

I have a couple of references for you on the Monte Cassino battle
that should answer your questions.

The Battle of Cassino by Fred Majdalany
Cassino by Dominich Graham
Return to Cassino by Harold L. Bond

Hope this helps.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 07:05:08 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: P-61 Black Widow

Hello, Aldo, Emmanuel, Peter and others!

Here goes with the next installment on the P-61.

During the construction of the prototypes, the XP-61's weight had
increased. The prototypes had an empty weight of 22,392 pounds and a
takeoff weight of 29,673 pounds. The prototype was powered by 2 2000hp
R-2800-25S Double Wasp radial engines driving Curtiss Electric C5425-
A10 12ft 2in diameter four blade propellors. In addition to the
Western Electric SCR-720A radar set, the XP-61 carried two command
radios (SCR-522As) and three other radios (SCR-695A, AN/APG-1 and
AN/APG-4). The central fire control system for the gun turret was the
General Electric GE2CFR/2A3 similar to that used on the B-29.

Taxi tests began almost immediately and it was during the high speed
taxi test on 21 May 1942 that the XP-61 lifted off the runway for the
first time. Northrop test pilot Vance Breese officially conducted the
XP-61'sd first flight five days later on 26 May. Following an
uneventful 15 minute flight, Breese told Jack Northop that "you've
got a damn fine airplane".

Flight tests revealed that the XP-61 had a stall speed of 75 mph
(power on) and 80 mph (power off), a maximum speed of 380 mph, the
takeoff roll was slightly over 1500 feet, rate of climb was 2000
ft/min and range was approximately 1200 miles. The test pilots
reported that the aircraft had to be deliberately put into a spin and
it recovered by simply relaxing the controls.

More tomorrow.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 08:53:53 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: Question: Cannon/Machine Gun

>
> On Tue, 3 May 1994, Sidney Allinson wrote:
>
> >         One odd factor in the RAF's decision to stick with .303 calibre
> > (oops, sorry, caliBER, to you) in 1930, was the fact the British then
> > still had an enormous stock of .303 ammo from the First World War.
> > The RAF chose the American Colt/Browning m.g. design, but had it
> > re-tooled for .303 -- something we all had reason to regret throughout
> > WW2. Rifle-calibre m.g. ammo proved awfully inadequate in a modern air
> > war. It was not until late 1944 that RAF gunners got what we deserved,
> > the Rose Turret with four Fifties  (.50's)
>
> To be precise: the gun retooled for .303 ammunition was the .30 Colt, not
> the .50 Colt. Had also something to do with the type of cartridge; I
> think British cartridges were rimmed and US cartridges not, or the other
> way around.

.303 is rimmed.  .30-06 (7.62x63mm) is rimless.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 10:20:06 -0400
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: MEDIA: Combat! marathon

        While watching Monday night's episode of Combat! on Nostalgia
Television, an ad aired that Nostalgia would be airing a two-day marathon
of Combat! episodes to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the Normandy
invasion.  But not any episodes: they are the last season episodes that
were filmed in color!  This will be the only time Nostalgia will show them.
The date and time of this event are June 4th at 1:00PM EST.  (Nostalgia TV
is a cable station available in the US and perhaps Canada.)  So make sure
you have a large supply of videotapes!

        I have faithfully been watching this show (weeknights at 10PM EST)
and I am amazed with the production values and plots.  (OK, the one nit is
that the Germans shoot as well as Imperial stormtroopers in Star Wars!)
What I didn't realize when I first watched this show as a kid is that the
stories progressed from one to another.  That is, the earliest episodes
have the squad at the breakout of Normandy while later ones show their
drive to Paris, etc.  The squad was much larger in the early episodes
(Braddock, Billy Nelson, Kelly, a different Doc) and these "regulars" were
killed off!  This was unheard of in a 1960s TV show.  Some of the more
interesting plots are those dealing with moral dilemmas, e.g., whether
they should execute prisoners, etc.  It's also interesting to see so many
young actors who would later move on to bigger and better things.
--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
It was a wasted trip, baby.  Nobody said
nothing about locking horns with no Tigers.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 07:43:48 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@CCLINK.LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 05-04-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr44.txt

1944
05/04 Thu. United States Naval Base and Naval Air Facility,
           Majuro Atoll, Marshall Islands, are established.
            German submarine sunk:
             U-371, by destroyer escorts JOSEPH E. CAMPBELL (DE-
              70), PRIDE (DE-323), and British and French
              surface craft, western Mediterranean.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  2

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 10:55:16 EDT
From:    John Edwards <JEDWARDS@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
Subject: World War II U.S. Radio Traitors--Berlin Calling

National Public Radio affiliate WUGA (University of Georgia) will uplink its
hour-long program, Berlin Calling, on May 17, 1994.  This program will consist
of the lives of eight Americans who broadcast for the Nazis during WWII.  The
show will include original recordings, period music, and observations of
scholars and individuals who knew these radio traitors.  The program is based
on the book, Berlin Calling (Praeger Publishers) by John Carver Edwards.  For
air time please consult local NPR affiliate.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 11:34:33 EST
From:    Mike Oaks <moaks@KSCMAIL.KENNESAW.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Combat! marathon

On Wed, 4 May 1994 10:20:06 -0400,
Barone  <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu> wrote:

>        While watching Monday night's episode of Combat! on Nostalgia
>Television, an ad aired that Nostalgia would be airing a two-day marathon
>of Combat! episodes to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the Normandy
>invasion.  But not any episodes: they are the last season episodes that
>were filmed in color!  This will be the only time Nostalgia will show them.
>The date and time of this event are June 4th at 1:00PM EST.  (Nostalgia TV
>is a cable station available in the US and perhaps Canada.)  So make sure
>you have a large supply of videotapes!
>
>        I have faithfully been watching this show (weeknights at 10PM EST)
>and I am amazed with the production values and plots.  (OK, the one nit is
>that the Germans shoot as well as Imperial stormtroopers in Star Wars!)
>What I didn't realize when I first watched this show as a kid is that the
>stories progressed from one to another.  That is, the earliest episodes
>have the squad at the breakout of Normandy while later ones show their
>drive to Paris, etc.  The squad was much larger in the early episodes
>(Braddock, Billy Nelson, Kelly, a different Doc) and these "regulars" were
>killed off!  This was unheard of in a 1960s TV show.  Some of the more
>interesting plots are those dealing with moral dilemmas, e.g., whether
>they should execute prisoners, etc.  It's also interesting to see so many
>young actors who would later move on to bigger and better things.
>--
>Joe Barone
>m1b@ssd.ray.com
>It was a wasted trip, baby.  Nobody said
>nothing about locking horns with no Tigers.

thus from the keyboard of Joe Barone...

Joe,
a question to you through the group so please anybody/everybody jump in. In
the past we have talked about uniforms and their accuracy in movies and tv
shows, on this vein I've a question. In some "COMBAT" shows as well as
other video media some Germans are wearing a type of "breastplate" shaped
sort of like a halfmoon, while in other "COMBAT" episodes, and other wwii
videos, the breast-plate is not visible. The breastplate looks to be about
6 to 8 inches wideand about 3 + inches deep. Anyone got any ideas as to
what this is??? I'd hate to think it was a dog-tag, the size being that big
and it's being worn outside the uniform but...

Thank you Joe for letting us know about the "COMBAT" marathon. I'll start
buying extra video tapes asap!!

     Many thanks in advance,
 ___________________________________________________________________
|                                                                   |
|    Michael Oaks                           In Computers we Trust   |
|    Kennesaw State College                          but...         |
|    moaks@kscmail.kennesaw.edu              I ALWAYS BACKUP !!!    |
|    Tel: (404) 423-6049  Fax (404) 423-6541   ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~    |
|___________________________________________________________________|

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 10:39:29 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: OK!  That DOES it!  SUBJECT HEADINGS

Whipping through my 100 msgs per day, I happened upon the
  "Tirpitz" heading, which I decided to check upon, to see
  the progress/direction of discussion.

What I found were prisoner-of-war-escape books!!

Could we all PLEASE use more descriptive subject headings and
  save each other some significant/accumulated time?!

As important as the abbreviations may be to Joe, just having
  relevant subject headings of ANY kind would be useful.

Thanks.  :-)

Lou Coatney

(This was on the WWII-L@UBVM.BITNET usergroup, but there
  are one or two other nets which could do better, as
  well.)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 11:04:14 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: GEN: Spielberg Certificate.

Instead of copying a clarinet article without permission, clari.news.military
has an AP newswire report (also carried on CNN and various local stations)
about Spielberg receiving a certificate of appreciation from the WWII
Commemorative Committee at the Pentagon for his movie "Shindler's List."

I just wanted to mention it because the Southern Minnesota Wing of the
Confederate Air Force received the same recognition from the committee
and General Kicklighter earlier this year for its activities in preserving
WWII history, increasing public awareness and interest in WWII history and
our role in the General Doolittle memorial at Arlington.  WE didn't get any
press, though... I think I'm going to go back to our local media and remind
them of this... :-)

The WWII Commemorative Committee is a Pentagon committee designed to support
organizations commemorating the 50th Anniversary of WWII.  You have to meet
certain requirements to be officially recognized and in return they supply
you with a lot of information and various levels of support to help.
Although the anniversary period is rapidly coming to a close (only a bit
more than a year remain) and after that the committee (apparently) goes
away, organizations that hold several events per year commemorating WWII
might want to look into them.  If nothing else, you get a cool flag and
some pins.  :-)

Now... Where did I put that number for CNN...?

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 14:30:29 -0400
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: ADMIN: Vacation

        This a just a quick note to let everyone know that I will be on
vacation from May 5 to May 9.  Jack McKillop (jem3@PYUXF.CC.BELLCORE.COM) has
kindly accepted the job of keeping youse guys in line during my absence! (:-)
Since this list is pretty mellow, I don't really expect any problems, but I
wanted everyone to know why I wasn't answering mail, etc.  In the unlikely
event that some silliness brews (such as a Green Card Lottery posting), I
hope everyone affords Jack the same courtesies that they have extended to
me.  Thanks.
--
Joe Barone, WWII-L owner
m1b@ssd.ray.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 14:31:57 EDT
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <hb9388@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Combat! marathon

Michael,

The German soldiers wearing what you call a "breastplate" is called
a gorget.  It was worn as a badge of office for the military field
police (MP's in our army), which the Germans called the
"feldgendarmerie".  SO, in those COMBAT episodes, they were dealing with
German MPs or soldiers assigned to traffic control points along a supply route.

I'm sure Bill Huber will add more info to this.

Barry

Barrett F. Lowe               RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, West Point  (e-mail:  hb9388%usma6@trotter.usma.edu)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 14:37:15 -0400
From:    "Robert F. Kieran" <rkieran@NIC.NEAR.NET>
Subject: Re: INF: German uniform question


        Joe,
        a question to you through the group so please anybody/everybody jump in. In
        the past we have talked about uniforms and their accuracy in movies and tv
        shows, on this vein I've a question. In some "COMBAT" shows as well as
        other video media some Germans are wearing a type of "breastplate" shaped
        sort of like a halfmoon, while in other "COMBAT" episodes, and other wwii
        videos, the breast-plate is not visible. The breastplate looks to be about
        6 to 8 inches wideand about 3 + inches deep. Anyone got any ideas as to
        what this is??? I'd hate to think it was a dog-tag, the size being that big
        and it's being worn outside the uniform but...

        Thank you Joe for letting us know about the "COMBAT" marathon. I'll start
        buying extra video tapes asap!!

             Many thanks in advance,
         ___________________________________________________________________
        |                                                                   |
        |    Michael Oaks                           In Computers we Trust   |
        |    Kennesaw State College                          but...         |
        |    moaks@kscmail.kennesaw.edu              I ALWAYS BACKUP !!!    |
        |    Tel: (404) 423-6049  Fax (404) 423-6541   ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~    |
        |___________________________________________________________________|

Michael,

     I believe you are refering to what is known as a gorget. In the
German Army, they were used for two purposes:

        A. One design was worn by flagbearers (fahnentraegers),
        who also wore a special shoulder patch.

        B. Military police also wore a gorget. They were known as
        "Chained Dogs" by the regular German soldiers.

     The two gotgets were of different design, too. I believe that the
MPs version had a large German eagle on it, and that the flag bearers
had crossed flags on it, as did their shoulder patch. Sorry I can't be
more precise, but the books are at home, ya see.

                                                Regards
                                                Bob Kieran
                                                rkieran@near.net

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 15:28:01 -0400
From:    Emery Ford <eford@DELPHI.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spam in Europe

On May 3, John Sloan wrote:

>
>Emery,
>There are some famous comments about spam in the Gulag but I don't have them
>in front of me at the moment. Will try to find time to check for you. Think
>it was served when Wallace visited or else some other American VIP.
>JOhn sloan

Now, I believe we have beaten this Spam thing almost to death, but JOhn,
I would particularly like to know about these Spam comments in the Gulag.

My overall impression is that Spam may have contributed to European resentment
toward Americans that lingers to this very day.

Thanks all,

--Emery

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 15:08:37 EDT
From:    MNHAD007@SIVM.SI.EDU
Subject: MEDIA: Combat! marathon

Does anyone have a list of the television shows about WWII from the 50s - 90s?

I could only come up with a few.

Combat! 60s drama

12 O'clock High drama 60s

Hogan's Heros comedy 60s

Rat Patrol 60s drama

Mchale's Navy 60s comedy

Dirty Dozen 80s comedy :) It was really bad and not worth watching! INHO.

I can't think of any more but I sure y'all will let me know what I missed.

H. A. Kurt Luginbyhl
Scientific Computer Specialist
National Museum of Natural History
Washington D.C. 20560

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 16:26:35 -0400
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: WWII TV shows

H. A. Kurt Luginbyhl writes:
> Does anyone have a list of the television shows about WWII from the
> 50s - 90s?
>
> I could only come up with a few.
> Combat! 60s drama
> 12 O'clock High drama 60s
> Hogan's Heros comedy 60s
> Rat Patrol 60s drama
> Mchale's Navy 60s comedy
> Dirty Dozen 80s comedy :) It was really bad and not worth watching! INHO.
>
> I can't think of any more but I sure y'all will let me know what I missed.

Here's one that probably no one else has heard of:

Campo 44, a Hogan's Heroes knock-off set in an Italian POW camp.  It
lasted all of four episodes or so.  My father (an Italian vet) and I
watched in faithfully.  It came out shortly after Hogan's Heroes (mid
1960s).
--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
Booker, get me my uniform!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 16:53:54 EDT
From:    GERMAN 101/102 LAB <GLAB@SLUMUS.BITNET>
Subject: Re[2]: INF: German uniform question

In regards to the breast plate worn in some of the WW II movies, what
you are referring to is the FELDJAEGER or Military Police breastplate.

Dale Lally
St. Lawrence University
Canton NY 13617
dlally@stlawu.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 16:54:36 -0400
From:    Peter Smith <psmith@WELLSPRING.US.DG.COM>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Combat! marathon

Kurt Luginbyhl <MNHAD007@SIVM.SI.EDU> asked:
> Does anyone have a list of the television shows about WWII from the 50s - 90s?
> I could only come up with a few.
> Combat! 60s drama
> 12 O'clock High drama 60s
> Hogan's Heros comedy 60s
> Rat Patrol 60s drama
> Mchale's Navy 60s comedy
> Dirty Dozen 80s comedy :) It was really bad and not worth watching! INHO.

The Gallant Men (60's drama -- infantry in Italy)

Ba Ba Black Sheep (70's drama -- Marine aviation in Solomons)

Mister Roberts (60's comedy descended from good 50's film descended from
outstanding 40's book -- Naval transport in Pacific)

There was also a 50's drama about a submarine in the Pacific who's name
I've been trying to remember forever.  All I can remember about it was
that Forrest Tucker was one of the actors.  Anyone?
--
Peter Smith -- Data General Corp., Westboro, MA
psmith@wellspring.us.dg.com (preferred) or Peter_Smith@dgc.ceo.dg.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 15:58:20 -0500
From:    Jon Stevens <jstevens@DAVID.WHEATON.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: WWII TV shows

On Wed, 4 May 1994, Barone wrote:

> H. A. Kurt Luginbyhl writes:
> > Does anyone have a list of the television shows about WWII from the
> > 50s - 90s?
> >
> > I could only come up with a few.
> > Combat! 60s drama
> > 12 O'clock High drama 60s
> > Hogan's Heros comedy 60s
> > Rat Patrol 60s drama
> > Mchale's Navy 60s comedy
> > Dirty Dozen 80s comedy :) It was really bad and not worth watching! INHO.
> >
> > I can't think of any more but I sure y'all will let me know what I missed.
>
> Here's one that probably no one else has heard of:
>
> Campo 44, a Hogan's Heroes knock-off set in an Italian POW camp.  It
> lasted all of four episodes or so.  My father (an Italian vet) and I
> watched in faithfully.  It came out shortly after Hogan's Heroes (mid
> 1960s).
> --
> Joe Barone

What about "Black Sheep Squadron"?  This was probably the best WWII tv
series besides "Combat!"   My dad, a USMC vetern of WWII, never
missed it. It was quite disappointing when it was cancelled.  Actual
Corsairs and imitation Zeros were great to watch.

Jon Stevens

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 15:24:56 CDT
From:    Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Combat! marathon

Do not forget to add the short-lived show :

"The Gallent Men"

Jesse

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 17:19:00 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: INF: German uniform question

>
>
>         Joe,
>         a question to you through the group so please anybody/everybody jump in.
>  In
>         the past we have talked about uniforms and their accuracy in movies and
> tv
>         shows, on this vein I've a question. In some "COMBAT" shows as well as
>         other video media some Germans are wearing a type of "breastplate" shape
> d
>         sort of like a halfmoon, while in other "COMBAT" episodes, and other wwi
> i
>         videos, the breast-plate is not visible. The breastplate looks to be abo
> ut
>         6 to 8 inches wideand about 3 + inches deep. Anyone got any ideas as to
>         what this is??? I'd hate to think it was a dog-tag, the size being that
> big
>         and it's being worn outside the uniform but...
>
That is the gorget of the military police.  It is the equivalent of the U.S.
"MP" arm brassard, or the British red cap cover.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 18:22:41 EDT
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor,
         Marist Coll" <JZML@MARISTB.BITNET>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Combat! marathon

>Does anyone have a list of the television shows about WWII from the 50s - 90s?
>
>I could only come up with a few.
>
Victory at Sea and The Valiant Years (the series about Winston
Churchill's contribution to WWII) are my favorites!

Jonah Triebwasser
Adjunct Instructor
Marist College
Dyson Building (Adult Education)
Poughkeepsie, New York12601
Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
E-Mail: jzml@maristb.marist.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 19:15:25 EDT
From:    Richard Kaplan <kaplanr@CLP2.CLPGH.ORG>
Subject: TRV: World War II Television

I am an afficianado of Combat, 12 O'clock High, and Rat Patrol.  But there was
an espionage show with Robert Goulet portraying a double agent.  I don't
remember the show's name or station.  Does it ring a bell with anyone?  Also
wasn't there a series in the 70s with David Jansen or Ben Gazzara about the
Red Ball Express?

                                Richard Kaplan
                                Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh

P.S.  On its way to creating a modern army, or maybe thats what distinguishes
a modern army; the Israelis adopted a Kosher SPAM with the appropriated British
name of loof. (Thats how the Hebrew is transliterated from loaf.)  Every bit as
loved or distained as the original.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 19:11:00 -0400
From:    DAVID WILMA 415-744-2485 <WILMA.DAVID@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Combat! marathon

          How is the word "gorget" pronounced?

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 16:18:11 -0700
From:    Joshua A Fleming <jfleming@HARP.AIX.CALPOLY.EDU>
Subject: German paratroopers dropped sans chutes?

     A Question.....

Somewhere I read that the Germans dropped paratroopers into the snow out
of lowflying aircraft on the Russian front sans parachutes.   Is this true?

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 19:14:00 -0400
From:    DAVID WILMA 415-744-2485 <WILMA.DAVID@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Combat! marathon

          Gallant Men, a Quinn Martin Production, infantry squad in Italy.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 18:51:10 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET>
Subject: Re: OK!  That DOES it!  SUBJECT HEADINGS

I agree with Lou about the importance of subject lines.

I personally think they are considerably more important than the abbreviations.
You have to have a dictionary to use them, and to intrepret them when mail
is received, so I rely considerably on the subject headings.

Unfortunately, I have to read a lot of messages unnecessarily, and I am
afraid I miss messages I would consider important because the subject
heading is no longer relevant.

Personally, I second the motion for more accurate subject headings.

George Bauer
U.S.A.:  BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 17:01:00 -0700
From:    Jim Benn <jrb@AGAVIION.AGFX.COM>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Combat! marathon

"The BLUE LIGHT"; about an American turncoat working for the Nazis who
was  really a spy; Mid 60's.

Jim Benn.

On Wed, 4 May 1994, Peter Smith wrote:

> Kurt Luginbyhl <MNHAD007@SIVM.SI.EDU> asked:
> > Does anyone have a list of the television shows about WWII from the 50s - 90s?
> > I could only come up with a few.
> > Combat! 60s drama
> > 12 O'clock High drama 60s
> > Hogan's Heros comedy 60s
> > Rat Patrol 60s drama
> > Mchale's Navy 60s comedy
> > Dirty Dozen 80s comedy :) It was really bad and not worth watching! INHO.
>
> The Gallant Men (60's drama -- infantry in Italy)
>
> Ba Ba Black Sheep (70's drama -- Marine aviation in Solomons)
>
> Mister Roberts (60's comedy descended from good 50's film descended from
> outstanding 40's book -- Naval transport in Pacific)
>
> There was also a 50's drama about a submarine in the Pacific who's name
> I've been trying to remember forever.  All I can remember about it was
> that Forrest Tucker was one of the actors.  Anyone?
> --
> Peter Smith -- Data General Corp., Westboro, MA
> psmith@wellspring.us.dg.com (preferred) or Peter_Smith@dgc.ceo.dg.com
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 17:24:01 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Combat! marathon

That half-moon chestplate is the symbol of German Military Police.
Known to ordinary soldiers as "chain dogs".
(More polite than what our side called MPs  :-)  )

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 17:30:23 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: TRV: World War II Television

For Robert Kaplan...
        That Robert Goulet espionage show was entitled:
                THE BLUE LAMP.
Got cancelled just when it was getting good.
Or, was it THE BLUE LIGHT?  :-)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 17:33:57 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: German paratroopers dropped sans chutes?

Yes, and the last thing their Felbwebel said was:
        OKAY MEN, WHEN YOU HIT THE GROUND -- SPREAD OUT!

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 10:17:43 +1000
From:    John Foster <PHS1A@CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Combat! marathon

Hi Kurt
      You wrote the folowing.
>Does anyone have a list of the television shows about WWII from the 50s - 90s?

   My favourite was "The Gallant Men" a "Combat" rival

   By the way you guys I'm a happy little vegemiter but as a kid I really
thought it was a treat when we had Spam with a salad(which I didn't like).
                                                             Regards
                                                              John

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 18:00:48 -0700
From:    Gerry Walker <GWALKER@CRC.SD68.NANAIMO.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: WWII TV shows

Seems to me I remember a show called "The Silent Service" but, I think the
it may have been more of a documentary type...

Cheers,

Gerry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 18:17:49 -0400
From:    Bob Smart <Bob.Smart@SMART.COM>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Combat! marathon

> Kurt Luginbyhl <MNHAD007@SIVM.SI.EDU> asked:
> > Does anyone have a list of the television shows about WWII from the 50s - 9
0s?
> > I could only come up with a few.
> > Combat! 60s drama
> > 12 O'clock High drama 60s
> > Hogan's Heros comedy 60s
> > Rat Patrol 60s drama
> > Mchale's Navy 60s comedy
> > Dirty Dozen 80s comedy :) It was really bad and not worth watching! INHO.
>
> The Gallant Men (60's drama -- infantry in Italy)
>
> Ba Ba Black Sheep (70's drama -- Marine aviation in Solomons)
>
> Mister Roberts (60's comedy descended from good 50's film descended from
> outstanding 40's book -- Naval transport in Pacific)
>
> There was also a 50's drama about a submarine in the Pacific who's name
> I've been trying to remember forever.  All I can remember about it was
> that Forrest Tucker was one of the actors.  Anyone?

I don't remember a TV show about a sub but I do remember a movie about a
submarine (Operation Petticoat?) subamrine in the Philipines damaged in initial
Japnese attack is put back together with scrounged parts. It then attempts to
escape to Australia on balky engines . Along the way it picks up some nurses,
Philipinos, and gets painted pink ( They got some red lead paint & some white
lead paint  but not enough of eather to paint the whole ship.)

As far as TV shows there was

'Wackiest ship in the Army' ( take off of the movie)

A Mchales navy type show about a navy motor pool run by some WAVEs. (Can't
remember the name - mid to late 60's

Bob Smart (bsmart@smart.com)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 21:27:09 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: WWII TV shows

The Black Sheep were my favorites too...

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 23:44:09 EDT
From:    Matthew Gajkowski <gruppen@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: German paratroopers ...

Funny, but I heard that the Russians tried jumping out of low flying aircraft
in deep snow.

Matthew Gajkowski

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 3 May 1994 to 4 May 1994
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 46 messages totalling 1141 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Re[2]: INF: German uniform question
  2. machine guns vs cannons. (3)
  3. Spam: Final Shot
  4. INF: USN Chronology 05-05-94
  5. MEDIA: Combat! marathon (9)
  6. German paratroopers dropped sans chutes? (5)
  7. USAAF & USMC Night Fighter Units
  8. TAC: River Platte (Graf Spee) (3)
  9. INF: USAAF 5 MAY 44
 10. MEDIA: WWII TV shows
 11. MEDIA: COLDITZ
 12. MEDIA: Hunt for the last Nazi's (4)
 13. Please remove user from list
 14. Military/Naval TV shows ... and submarines
 15. TRV:  entertaining yet useless WWII trivia
 16. Spam in Europe
 17. SPAM  :-P (2)
 18. P-61 Black Widow
 19. [TRIV] Costal defense guns (3)
 20. Question: Cannon/Machine Gun
 21. D-Day Decoy
 22. Sir Dr. Archibald McIndoe
 23. (Graf Spee)
 24. Japanese Interwar CV Air Group Compositions:

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 14:55:33 +1000
From:    Mick Fauchon <ulmjf@DEWEY.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: INF: German uniform question

        Dale,

            It's called the "Ringkragen", and standard-bearers as well as
field-police wore them. I believe "Feldj"ager" is the modern term, at
least in the Bundeswehr; the Wehrmacht term was "Feldgendarmerie".

                                                        Cheers,

                                                        Mick.

--                                                                          --
Mick Fauchon                          | Internet: ulmjf@dewey.newcastle.edu.au
Reference Section, Auchmuty Library   | Ph  (intl+61+49) 215861
University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA    | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833

On Wed, 4 May 1994, GERMAN 101/102 LAB wrote:

> In regards to the breast plate worn in some of the WW II movies, what
> you are referring to is the FELDJAEGER or Military Police breastplate.
>
> Dale Lally
> St. Lawrence University
> Canton NY 13617
> dlally@stlawu.bitnet
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 23:25:18 -0700
From:    Gerry Walker <GWALKER@CRC.SD68.NANAIMO.BC.CA>
Subject: machine guns vs cannons.

Have we come to any concensus about the difference?

I still hold to my opinion about the explosive vs non-explosive projectile
being the defining factor.

Cheers,

Gerry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 08:18:42 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <smb@NETMGRS.CO.UK>
Subject: Spam: Final Shot

Ladies and Gentlemen!

It has come to my attention that some linguistic confusion may have resulted
from my mention of British "Faggots" in aforementioned debate. I feel it
is my duty to inform our North American colleagues (who form the majority
on the list) that despite the mass onslaught of American linguistic
imperialism, the term Faggot has no official "other" connotations in English -
it merely means either a bundle of firewood, or a particular
culinary delight to which I was referring. However, if it did cause some
wry amusement over the water, well, wot's wrong with that?

yours for propa inglish

vote Labor

steve baldwin
smb@netmgrs.co.uk

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 01:18:44 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@CCLINK.LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 05-05-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr44.txt

1944
05/05 Fri. Admiral S. Toyoda's appointment as Commander in Chief
           of Japanese Combined Fleet is announced; he succeeds
           Admiral Koga, killed in an airplane crash on 31 March
           1944.
            United States naval vessels sunk:
             Destroyer escort FECHTELER (DE-157), by submarine
              torpedo, western Mediterranean area,
              36 d. 07' N., 02 d. 40' W.
             PT-247, by coastal defense gun, Solomon Islands
              area,
              06 d. 38' s., 156 d. 01' E.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 06:26:00 EDT
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <hb9388@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Combat! marathon

Kurt,

I remember a show called "Garrison's Guerrillas" in the late 60s or early 70s.

The Phil Silver's Show was about the Army, even if not WWII.

Barry


>Does anyone have a list of the television shows about WWII from the 50s - 90s?
>
>I could only come up with a few.
>
>Combat! 60s drama
>
>12 O'clock High drama 60s
>
>Hogan's Heros comedy 60s
>
>Rat Patrol 60s drama
>
>Mchale's Navy 60s comedy
>
>Dirty Dozen 80s comedy :) It was really bad and not worth watching! INHO.
>
>I can't think of any more but I sure y'all will let me know what I missed.
>
>H. A. Kurt Luginbyhl
>Scientific Computer Specialist
>National Museum of Natural History
>Washington D.C. 20560
>

Barrett F. Lowe               RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, West Point  (e-mail:  hb9388%usma6@trotter.usma.edu)

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 06:32:35 EDT
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <hb9388@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: German paratroopers dropped sans chutes?

>     A Question.....
>
>Somewhere I read that the Germans dropped paratroopers into the snow out
>of lowflying aircraft on the Russian front sans parachutes.   Is this true?
>

Joshua,

Actually, it was the other way around.  The Russians dropped some paratroops
into deep snow drifts behind German lines during the winter counteroffensive of
1941-42.  This was not a successful experiment.  I'll try to find my reference.

Barry

Barrett F. Lowe               RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, West Point  (e-mail:  hb9388%usma6@trotter.usma.edu)

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 11:56:01 GMT,BST
From:    John Gillies <JOHNG@PSY.GLA.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: German paratroopers dropped sans chutes?

I'm reminded of an anecdote I read (sorry - can't remember where) to
the effect that Himmler was once bragging about how rigorous the
training for his SS was going to be: "They will have to take part in
three combat training exercises in which live ammunition will be
used!"
"Yes," Goering is said to have replied with a straight face - "and
I have decided that all Luftwaffe pilots will have to make three
training jumps - the first two with parachute, the third without!"
John




John Gillies
Department of Psychology
Adam Smith Building
University of Glasgow
Glasgow  G12 8RT                      Tel: (0)41 339 8855 ext.5351
Scotland
                         johng@psy.gla.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 06:56:29 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Combat! marathon

Hello, All!

Don't forget "Navy Log", a series that aired in the mid-fifties.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 08:24:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: USAAF & USMC Night Fighter Units

Several people have asked me about my references for my posts on the USAAF
and USMC night fighter squadrons so here is what I used:

Data for USAAF night fighter squadrons are from COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR
FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Maxwell AFB, Ala.: USAF Historical Division, Dept of
the Air Force, 1969.  A reprint of this book is avaiable from Smithmark
Publishers, Inc, 16 East 32nd Street, New York, NY 10016, ISBN
0-8317-1801-4.

The major source for data about USMC night fighter squadrons is HISTORY OF
MARINE CORPS AVIATION IN WORLD WAR II, Robert Sherrod, ISBN 0-89141-111-9.
This book was originally published in 1952; the second edition was published
in 1980.  Information about the aircraft used by the USMC is from:

GRUMMAN AIRCRAFT SINCE 1929 by Rene J Francillon, ISBN 0-87021-246-X.  This
book was extremely helpful in determining what squadrons flew what version
of the Hellcat.

LOCKHEED AIRCRAFT SINCE 1913 by Rene J. Francillon, ISBN 0-807021-897-2.

U.S. MILITARY AIRCRAFT DESIGNATIONS AND SERIALS SINCE 1909 compiled by John
M. Andrade, ISBN 0-904597-21-0 (hardback) and ISBN 0-904597-22-0 (soft
cover).  I AM DESPERATELY LOOKING FOR A NEW COPY OF THIS ONE BECAUSE MINE
         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
LOOKS LIKE IT WENT THROUGH WWII.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

UNITED STATES NAVY AIRCRAFT SINCE 1911, Third Edition by Gordon Swanborough
and Peter M Bowers, ISBN 0-87021-792-5

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 06:58:58 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Combat! marathon

Hello, David!

>           How is the word "gorget" pronounced?

    Gorget is pronounced "gore-zhay".

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 08:25:34 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: German paratroopers dropped sans chutes?

On Thu, 5 May 1994 06:32:35 EDT Lowe Barrett MAJ said:
>>Somewhere I read that the Germans dropped paratroopers into the snow out
>>of lowflying aircraft on the Russian front sans parachutes.   Is this true?
>
>Joshua,
>
>Actually, it was the other way around.  The Russians dropped some paratroops
>into deep snow drifts behind German lines during the winter counteroffensive of
>1941-42.  This was not a successful experiment.  I'll try to find my reference.
It would have been tough.  I imagine the idea is to land spreadeagled on the
back, but then, where does the equipment go?  Also, you can't kill the forward
velocity from a low jump; jump a little higher, and you reach terminal
velocity in atmosphere of roughly 125mph.  Now, if they had first dropped
some of those Hollywood air bags out & made a second pass. . . . (-:

ken koester
maint2@ers.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 08:20:47 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <sep@TVSS2.COMMNET.EDU>
Subject: Re: TAC: River Platte (Graf Spee)

The real purpose of the Gref Spee was one at which she succeeded. The
real purpose was to draw the English fleet away from the theatre of
conflict for a period of time to leave the door open, so to speak for
the rest of the German navy to wreak havoc on allied shipping.

Don't forget the Ajax, Achillies and Exeter weren't the only allied vessels
involved. I understand that several other warships were diverted to Uraguay
in the event Langsdorf managed to get by the blockade.

The germans used a similar tactic in WW-I, off the east coast of Africa.

The british were attracted to the big, sacrificial warships of the germans
like moths to a flame. While something may be said about the necessity of
neutralizing enemy warships, sometimes it requires a disporportionate number
of 'our' vessels to do the task. It's easier to tie up warships then to sink
them...

Anybody ever figure that angle yet, or am I unrealistic?
                                                                Steve
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - sep@trctc.commnet.edu |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 08:30:52 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Combat! marathon

On Wed, 4 May 1994 17:01:00 -0700 Jim Benn said:
>"The BLUE LIGHT"; about an American turncoat working for the Nazis who
>was  really a spy; Mid 60's.

More precisely, was really an *Allied* spy.  When the series opens, he is the
last surviving member (and director) of his network.

ken koester
maint2@ers.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 08:36:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: INF: USAAF 5 MAY 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
FRIDAY, 5 MAY 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 15 P-38s hit targets along Tiddim
road; 3 B-25s bomb the Thayaung Airfield area; 80+ P-40s, P-51s, A-36s and
B-25s carry out support of ground forces, hit gun positions and supply dumps,
attack troop concentrations and blast numerous targets of opportunity
throughout the Mogaung Valley; 3 B-25s and 6 fighter-bombers hit an
ammunition dump N of Mohnyin; and 12 P-38s bomb a large warehouse E of Monywa.
6 B-24s lay mines in the harbor off Koh Si Chang Island, Thailand.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 11 B-24s bomb docks and shipping at Haiphong,
French Indochina. In Burma, P-40s damage bridges at Hsenwi and Wan Pa-Hsa and
hit barracks and destroy several trucks at Kentung. In China, 8 B-25s and 23
fighter-bombers attack the warehouse area at Chiuchiang, causing large fires;
25 Chinese-American Composite Wing (CACW) B-25s and P-40s thoroughly pound
Sinyang marshalling yard and storage area; and 10 P-40s sweep the road from
Loyang to Juchou, claiming 40-50 vehicles and numerous troops destroyed.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 339: 33 of 46 B-24s hit
the V-weapon site at Sottevast, France; 1 B-24 is damaged beyond repair and 6
damaged; 4 airmen are KIA. Escort is provided by 52 P-51s without loss.
  Duing the night, 21 B-24s are dispatched on CARPETBAGGER missions; 1 B-24
is lost.
  HQ 95th Combat Bombardment Wing (Heavy) moves from Ketteringham to
Halesworth, England.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Brigadier General Myron R Wood
assumes command of the IX Air Forces Services Command.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 465th Bombardment Group (Heavy)
with B-24s becomes operational, making a total of 20 heavy bomber groups
operational in the Fifteenth Air Force.
  640+ bombers (the largest force to date) attack targets in Rumania and
Yugoslavia; the B-17s hit marshalling yards at Ploesti/Campina and Brasnov,
Rumania; the B-24s hit the marshalling yard at Ploesti and troop
concentrations at Podgoricu, Yugoslavia; fighters fly 240+ sorties in support.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, A-20s bomb a supply dump
W of Albano Laziale; XII Tactical Air Command A-36s, P-47s and P-40s fly 24
missions cutting rail lines N and NE of Rome, and hitting guns N of the Anzio
beachhead and N of Gaeta and a dump near Frascati; bridges at Orvieto and W
of Lake Bolsena are damaged by direct hits, a barge at San Stefano al Mare is
hit, several trucks destroyed or damaged, rail lines are cut in several
places near Sesti Bagni and aircraft are hit at the Canino landing ground.
  A flight of the 5th Combat Mapping Squadron, 3d Photographic Group
(Reconnaissance), operating from San Severo, Italy returns to base at
Pomigliano, Italy with F-5s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): During the night of 4/5 May
B-24s from Kwajalein Atoll stage through Eniwetok Atoll and bomb Truk Atoll.
During the day B-25s from Eniwetok Atoll strike Ponape Island, and 10 from
Makin Island hit Jaluit and Wotje Atolls, Marshall Islands, using Majuro
Atoll as a rearming base between the attacks.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): In the Solomon Islands, 24
B-25s bomb gun positions at Buka on Buka Island and 34 P-39s hit various
targets on Bougainville and Buka Islands, including buildings at Porton,
Chabai and Kohiso, a pillbox on Pau Island and a road near Tsundawan; supply
area at Chabai is bombed by 12 other P-39s; P-40s bomb buildings at Kieta and
at nearby Rigu Mission. Fighter patrols continue over the N Solomons Islands
and the Bismarck Archipelago.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, B-24s bomb
Mokmer Airfield while B-25s hit supply areas at Wakde Island and along the
coast of Maffin Bay; A-20s and fighter-bombers again pound targets around
Wewak and along the coast of Hansa Bay, hitting supply and personnel areas,
warehouses and occupied villages.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 08:48:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: WWII TV shows

 >Seems to me I remember a show called "The Silent Service" but, I think the
 >it may have been more of a documentary type...
 >
 >Cheers,
 >
 >Gerry

THE SILENT SERVICE was a 30-minute syndicated show; 78 episodes
were produced in 1956-58 and first released in March 1957.  The
series consisted of documentary-style dramas about US subs and all
the stories were based on fact.  The show was the brainchild of
retired Rear Admiral Thomas M. Dykers who retired in 1949 after 22
years in the Navy, most in subs.  The Navy even loaned him the USS
Sawfish for filming.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 07:46:48 EDT
From:    MNHAD007@SIVM.SI.EDU
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Combat! marathon

According to my old Random HouseCollege Dict.  gorget it pronounced goor jit
Apologies from this system that won't allow diacritcals.

H. A. Kurt Luginbyhl
Scientific Computer Specialist
National Museum of Natural History
Washington D.C. 20560

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 09:24:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Combat! marathon

 >On Wed, 4 May 1994 17:01:00 -0700 Jim Benn said:
 >>"The BLUE LIGHT"; about an American turncoat working for the Nazis who
 >>was  really a spy; Mid 60's.
 >
 >More precisely, was really an *Allied* spy.  When the series opens, he is the
 >last surviving member (and director) of his network.
 >
 >ken koester
 >maint2@ers.bitnet

THE BLUE LIGHT was a spy drama broadcast on ABC on Wednesdays
between 2030 and 2100.  First broadcast was 12 Jan 66; last
broadcast was 31 Aug 66.  The show starred Robert Goulet and
Christine Carere.  It was filmed in Germany and was the story of US
spy David March who posed as a foreign correspondent who had
officially renounced his US citizenship.  Of course that was a
cover story; he was really a spy assigned to a TOP SECRET US
government intelligence organization.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 14:23:00 +0100
From:    "H.G. Henry" <hgh10@CUS.CAM.AC.UK>
Subject: MEDIA: COLDITZ

BRITISH 60'S SEREIS ABOUT THE SUPPOSEDLY ESCAPE-PROOF COLDITZ CASTLE

Hugh Henry, St John's College, University of Cambridge

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 09:49:57 -0400
From:    QUACK <MUSCORJ@HSDWL.UTC.COM>
Subject: Re: TAC: River Platte (Graf Spee)

Amazing, and all I asked for what happened to the sunken wreck?

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 09:52:19 -0400
From:    Kevin Kamphaus <usr5066a@TSO.UC.EDU>
Subject: MEDIA: Hunt for the last Nazi's

On either Prime Time tonight or 20/20 tomorrow night (both ABC) they are
having a show about the hunt for the last Nazi's, involving Germany,
Argentina, and I think Spain. Check your local listings. I can't remember
which one is doing the piece.

Kevin Kamphaus
usr5066a@tso.uc.edu
kamphaus@petsys.ge.ae.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 09:52:00 EST
From:    Mail Postmaster <POSTMASTER@A1.TCH.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: Please remove user from list

Please unsubscribe user ZULLO@A1.TCH.HARVARD.EDU from this list.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 09:41:41 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Military/Naval TV shows ... and submarines

What I remember about "Navy Log" is the great theme music, sort
  of like "Patton."  Some of the installments are on video, and
  the one I looked at had Martin Milner, in a pre-Route-66 role.

What I remember about "Silent Service" is the sub coming
  straight up out of the water, at the beginning -- similar to
  the broaching in "Hunt for Red October."

What happens in or to a sub when it performs such a radical
  maneuver.  Does special strength have to be designed into it,
  so that it can do that?

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 08:34:34 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: German paratroopers dropped sans chutes?

They used to tell this story in Egypt...
        'Seems that a battalion of Ghurkas were required to be sent
quickly to help stem an attack by the Afrika Korps far away in the
desert.  The British Lt. Colonel paraded his Ghurkas, "Men,I am asking
for volunteers for a very desperate, possibly even suicidal, combat
mission. All volunteers, step forward."
        About half the men promptly stepped forward. The LtCol was
quietly furious. "Men, you are Ghurkas! Yet, I ask for you to parachute
behind eny lines, and only half of you volunteer!"
        "Oh, sir," the Ghurka Sergeant Major shouted. "If we're getting
*parachutes* when we jump, then we'll ALL go!"

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 08:48:01 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Hunt for the last Nazi's

Recently, I finished reading a remarkable book:
        "AN EYE FOR AN EYE: The Untold Story Of Jewish Revenge"
                by John Sack, Basic Books, NY.
Tells about numerous individual Jews who went after German war
criminals in 1945, and either killed them or ensured they were
arrested for trial for murder. Excellently written, but painful
to read.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 08:54:36 PST
From:    "Jones, Scott T." <sjones@CCLINK.LOGICON.COM>
Subject: TRV:  entertaining yet useless WWII trivia

     As received over the INTERNET:

     "...in TORA TORA TORA Richard Loo, when interrogating an American
     officer in "Japanese" was really asking him things like "Do you want
     duck sauce with your egg roll?!" in Chinese. (He used to work in a
     Chinese restaurant)"

     As read in "The Best, Worst and Most Unusual" (Fenton and Fowler):

     "MOST UNUSUAL BLITZKRIEG: Students of the OSS, America's wartime
     counterpart to the CIA, may know of its thwarted efforts to sneak
     estrogen into Hitler's salads, thus turning him into a squeeky-voiced
     eunuch. That, however, was not the only attempt to play havoc with the
     Fuhrer's emotional stability. During the early days of the war, an OSS
     staff psychologist theorized that, despite the dictator's now well
     know deviant sexual predilections, Hitler was unwilling to admit to
     himself that pornography was rampant throughout Germany, and that if a
     heavy dose of Aryan lewdness were to be pushed in his face, he would
     suffer a mental breakdown and the leaderless German's would lose the
     war. The plan, then: arm a squadron of RAF fliers with several tons of
     the ripest pornographic art and literature available in Germany, and
     have them drop it on Hitler's home.
        Unfortunately, the plan fell apart, essentially because the RAF
     fliers, ordinarily willing to carry out the orders of their
     government, refused to risk life and limb carpet bombing Adolf Hitler
     with photographs of women copulating with Shetland ponies. The war,
     they said, would have to won through less inventive means"


     MY ADDITION: The above referenced hormone plan consisted of bribing
     Hitler's personal gardener to inject large amounts of Estrogen into
     his carrots. The goal was to have Hitler's mustache fall out and his
     voice become soprano, which would cause the German people to dislike
     him and boot him from power. Needless to say, it did not work. I will
     pass on the details if anyone is interested.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
     Scott T. Jones                | "They say its automatic, but you
     Dahlgren, VA 22448  USA       |  have to press a button."
     Internet: Sjones@LOGICON.COM  |
_____________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 11:11:28 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Hunt for the last Nazi's

Hello, Kevin!

Thanks for the tip. That should be very interesting.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 11:14:41 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spam in Europe

Hello, All!

I was wondering how may ways there are or were in preparing spam.
Let's see, there are spam-burgers, spam-sandwiches, fried spam,
boiled spam, etc. Any others?

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 11:18:53 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: SPAM  :-P

Personally, I find this topic tasteless.

Lou Coatney, Western Illinois University Library ('til 30Jun94)

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 11:30:50 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: P-61 Black Widow

Hello, Aldo, Emmanuel, Peter and others!

Sorry for the delay, but I am busy at this time. Here goes with the
next installment.

As enthusiastic as the flight tests were, the problems with as complex
design as the XP-61 began to overwhelm the program. The XP-61 had
been designed and built to incorporate the "Zap" flap: a full-span,
retractable flap. Additionally, the aircraft did not use conventional
ailerons of any type. Problems were soon encountered with too
critical production line tolerances and the test pilot began
reporting unfavorable flying characteristics associated with the
"Zap" flap. As a result, these were replaced with four (2 inboard and
2 outboard) conventional flaps and small ailerons. To augment lateral
control, Northrop developed the "Northrop retractable ailerons", or
wing spoilers. The spoilers were large ventral panels that acted in
conjunction with the ailerons, moving into the air from the upper
wing surface and increasing the aircraft's roll rate.

On 1 Sep 1941, the Army ordered the P-61 into production with an
order for some 150 aircraft under the designation P-61 Black Widow.
This was before the first XP-61 was completed and reflected the
pressing need for night fighters in all theaters of war.

What follows are some brief comments on the YP-61.

Most of the changes ordered by the Army from the test of the XP-61
were incorporated in the 13 service test YP-61s, which began coming
off the assembly line during the early summer of 1943. Externally,
they differed little from the 2 XP-61 prototypes. The major
difference was a change in engines with the P and W R-2800-25s being
replaced by R-2800-10s. The YP-61s were delivered in a flat black
night fighter paint scheme. The Army took delivery of the first YP-61
on 6 Aug 1943 with the last aircraft being delivered by September of
1943 as $649,584.00 per aircraft.

On 12 Feb 1943, the Army ordered an additional 410 P-61s and followed
these with additional orders for some 1200 P-61s to be built by
Northrop at Hawthorne, CA and a second plant which was to be built in
Denver, CO.

More tomorrow.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 13:02:45 -0400
From:    Norrin M Ripsman <nripsman@SAS.UPENN.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Hunt for the last Nazi's

Kevin Kamphaus wrote:
>
> On either Prime Time tonight or 20/20 tomorrow night (both ABC) they are
> having a show about the hunt for the last Nazi's, involving Germany,
> Argentina, and I think Spain. Check your local listings. I can't remember
> which one is doing the piece.
>
> Kevin Kamphaus
> usr5066a@tso.uc.edu
> kamphaus@petsys.ge.ae.com
>

I think it's Prime Time tonight.

Norrin M. Ripsman

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 13:02:38 EDT
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <hb9388@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: German paratroopers dropped sans chutes?

Sidney,

Seems this story is traditional folklore in the Army.
I read this in John Master's book, BUGLES AND A TIGER.

Barry


>They used to tell this story in Egypt...
>        'Seems that a battalion of Ghurkas were required to be sent
>quickly to help stem an attack by the Afrika Korps far away in the
>desert.  The British Lt. Colonel paraded his Ghurkas, "Men,I am asking
>for volunteers for a very desperate, possibly even suicidal, combat
>mission. All volunteers, step forward."
>        About half the men promptly stepped forward. The LtCol was
>quietly furious. "Men, you are Ghurkas! Yet, I ask for you to parachute
>behind eny lines, and only half of you volunteer!"
>        "Oh, sir," the Ghurka Sergeant Major shouted. "If we're getting
>*parachutes* when we jump, then we'll ALL go!"
>

Barrett F. Lowe               RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, West Point  (e-mail:  hb9388%usma6@trotter.usma.edu)

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 13:40:11 -0400
From:    Steven VEST <vest@ALPHA.ACAST.NOVA.EDU>
Subject: [TRIV] Costal defense guns

> UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
>              PT-247, by coastal defense gun, Solomon Islands
>               area,
>               06 d. 38' s., 156 d. 01' E.
> Theron P. Keller


   This is an interesting little tidbit.  Does anyone have an offhand
idea of how common it was for a naval vessel to be sunk by a coastal
defense gun?

==========================vest@alpha.acast.nova.ed===========================
= Steven Vest: Head, Off Campus Lib. Services: Nova University, Ft. Ldl, FL =
=  Baby if you want to dance.  You gotta pay the band!                     =
=                                   Michael Stanley Band: Heartland        =
================No statements made here reflect Nova University==============

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 15:11:50 -0400
From:    "John E. Kollar" <KILLAR@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU>
Subject: Re: machine guns vs cannons.

The only real person who makes the decision is the designer, who calls
the gun either a machine gun or a cannon.  I myself like the definition
I posted before about 20mm and up being a cannon, and smaller being
a machine gun, but as another member said that there have been 15mm
cannons, and their have also probably been machine guns larger than 20mm,
but it seems a nice place to divide them.

John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 15:09:56 -0400
From:    "John E. Kollar" <KILLAR@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU>
Subject: Re: TAC: River Platte (Graf Spee)

Steve, you might be right in the specific, but it is a very costly
use of an expensive warship.  The entire British fleet was not drawn off,
only a fraction, while the rest of the navy still sat outside the
German Navy and kept them from escaping into the Atlantic.  The
idea of using a surface ship as a commerce raider, and a slow one at
that, is not really a useful naval or military advantage.  The Graf
Spee was hunted down and eleminated without the loss of a single
warship, except for damage to some cruisers, which to the British
symbolized a small use of naval strength, while to the Germans this
was one of their few capital warships, outside of the Graf Spee
class 'pocket battleship' Germany had two battleships, Bismark class,
and two battlecruisers.  The manpower, expertise, and stell used in
her construction would probably been better spent on Uboats before
the war, for early in the war is when they had their greatest
advantage.  If the war had been delayed til the entire naval building
plan was finished, they might have been important as a naval
threat to shipping because of the other heavier German warships tying
down the British fleet, but as it was there were never enough Germna
fleet units to tie down a significant number of British units, so
the British units that had the speed went after the Graf Spee, and
the British battlecruiser captains were probably dying to lob some
15" shells into one of the slow 'pocket battleship'

John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 15:38:23 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: [TRIV] Costal defense guns

>
> > UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
> >              PT-247, by coastal defense gun, Solomon Islands
> >               area,
> >               06 d. 38' s., 156 d. 01' E.
> > Theron P. Keller
>
>
>    This is an interesting little tidbit.  Does anyone have an offhand
> idea of how common it was for a naval vessel to be sunk by a coastal
> defense gun?

I don't know how common it was, but the Polish defenses at Danzig gave the
Kriegsmarine hell.  The defenders were even somewhat recognized by the Germans
for their skill and heroism.

During the Falklands Island War, a Royal Marine recoilless rifle section
severely damaged and nearly sank and Argentine corvette(?).  The ship had to
return to the mainland for extensive repairs.

I believe that this story was published in "International Defense Review".

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 15:46:08 -0400
From:    "J.M.Ruel" <ad388@DAYTON.WRIGHT.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Combat! marathon

I think there could have been one called " Sharkey USN " with Don Rickles.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 15:19:27 -0500
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: SPAM  :-P

In message World War II Discussion List writes:
> Personally, I find this topic tasteless.

I'd say it's more in bad taste... :-)

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 13:33:11 +0100
From:    John Behrens <jbehrens@DHM.COM>
Subject: Re: Question: Cannon/Machine Gun

I once read a quote by a German fighter pilot that went something like this:

"In the time it takes me to blow him up (a US fighter) with my cannon, he
can cut me in half with his machine gun."

Thought that was kind of interesting.

                                        John

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 17:57:30 -0400
From:    Walter O'Hara <wohara@CAP.GWU.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Combat! marathon

That was "CPO Sharkey" and it was set in the 70s (e.g. "present day" back
then).

Walt O'Hara
wohara@cap.gwu.edu
oharaw@netcom.com
oharaw@cpark.bah.com



On Thu, 5 May 1994, J.M.Ruel wrote:

> I think there could have been one called " Sharkey USN " with Don Rickles.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 15:13:32 -0700
From:    Patrick Charles <pchuck@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Combat! marathon

        I think it was called "CPO Sharkey" and it did star Don Rickles.
I also think it was about the U.S. Navy during the 1970's.

        Patrick J. Charles


On Thu, 5 May 1994, J.M.Ruel wrote:

> I think there could have been one called " Sharkey USN " with Don Rickles.
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 15:44:24 -0700
From:    Jim Benn <jrb@AGAVIION.AGFX.COM>
Subject: Re: [TRIV] Costal defense guns

Didn't the coastal defense guns at Wake Island turn back a Japanese
landing attempt and sink/damage some vessels?
I'm not sure; can somebody enlighten?


Jim Benn.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 16:27:42 -0700
From:    Gerry Walker <GWALKER@CRC.SD68.NANAIMO.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: machine guns vs cannons.

Interesting article in the April issue of Air International about gun develop-
ment for aviation...there is apparently now a cannon of 12.7 m.m. I guess that
this is an issue which will never be settled to everyone's satisfaction.

Cheers,

Gerry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 May 1994 09:31:51 +1000
From:    George PISZCZUK <phgpi@CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU>
Subject: D-Day Decoy

        I understand that an elaborated plan was devised to create a phantom
invasion force by using decoys.

        I believe that a number of radar stations were left intact prior to
the invasion so that they could see the echoes of a number of small ships,
barage balloons, and aircraft. Aircraft, from a number of squadrons,
including the famous 617 Squadron, dropped window material to to created the
illusion that a substantial fleet was approaching the Pas de Calais. It
appears that shore batteries, aiming 12-shells by radar preditions, actually
opened fire on the ghost fleet.

        How was it that the aircraft, which must have been travelling at 200
hundred miles an hour, were not detected by the radar?  Even if the radar
was in it early stages of development I would have thought night fighters
would have sent to investigate.


  -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Piszczuk                          Email: PHGPI@cc.newcastle.edu.au
  University of Newcastle                  Phone: (049) 215440
  Australia                                Fax  : (049) 216907
  -------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 19:26:39 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET>
Subject: Sir Dr. Archibald McIndoe

I would like to communicate with someone in England to ask a few questions
about Dr. McIndoe, a surgeon during WWII.

I would appreciate the help very much.


  =========================================================================
  | DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
  |                                  | Computers in Business & Education. |
  | Recently returned from my second | Education:  Curriculum development.|
  |   extended stay in Prague.       |    International Education, TEFL.  |
  | Working on second book about     | Central Europe:  Post revolution   |
  |   Prague and new Czech Republic. |    economic, social, political     |
  |                                  |    problems and opportunities.     |
  |                                  |  B-25 in WWII.                     |
  | E-Mail:                          | Free lance writing and editing.    |
  |   USA:  BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET    | Stamp collecting.                  |
  =========================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 21:07:14 -0400
From:    "Mark A. Campbell" <marka@WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: (Graf Spee)

Regarding the use of the Graf Spee as a decoy:

She was NOT being used as a decoy; her mission was to hunt down and destroy
as many allied merchantmen as possible, tie up as many allied warships as
possible, but NOT to get caught or sunk herself.  It is wise to remember that
in August 1939 the 3 "Pocket Battleships" of the Kriegsmarine formed the
MAJORITY of that navy's large (cruiser-class) warship strength.  The two
German Battlecruisers Sharnhorst and Gneisnau were barely operational (not
fully worked up), and of the eventual 3 heavy cruisers, I believe only one
had been fully worked up.  The Germans had some obsolescent light cruisers
and destroyers, and THAT's IT (aside from the submarines, of course); thus
it would have made no sense for the Germans to have "sacrificed" one of
their few capital ship units in return for . . . what?

It may be useful to remember that when the PB's were designed and built (c.
1932-1935), the 3rd generation battleships (i.e., post-Washington Treaty)
battleships had not yet appeared, and the only ships which could both
outgun *and* outrun the PB's were the 3 BR. battlecruisers (Hood, Repulse,
Renown), and the three extant Japanese fast BBs (Kongo, Haruna, Kirishima)
(Hiei had been demilitarized according to the provisions of the London
Treaty).  Thus the PB's looked like considerably better bargains in 1932
than they actually turned out to be in 1939.  That's the advance of
technology for you!

                                    Sincerely
                                    Mark A. Campbell

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 21:17:20 -0400
From:    "Mark A. Campbell" <marka@WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Japanese Interwar CV Air Group Compositions:

Dear all WWII subscribers:
    I have scoured the literature looking for information on the precise
composition of Japanese Carrier air groups.  I believe I have hit all the
standard, and some not-so-standard, English-language sources, but there
may be some I have missed.  In addition, some subscribers may have access
to Japanese-language sources I cannot work with (due to lack of Japanese!)


I would deeply appreciate any information you can  send me.  Thanks.

A Sampling of Sources Already Consulted:

1.  Samuel Eliot Morison, _United States Naval Operations in WW2_ (15 vols.)

2.  John Lundstrom, _The First Team_ (truly excellent work).

3.  Fuchida and ? (forget 2nd name), _Midway_.

4.  Paul Dull, _A Battle History of the Imperial Japanese Navy in WW2_

5.  (authors forgotten), _Japanese Naval Aces and Fighter Units in WW2_

6.  Rene Francillon, _Japanese Aircraft of WW2_

Some of the titles above are paraphrased, because I can't get to my
computerized bibliography while I'm typing this message, and I didn't plan
to send out this message until I got the impulse while replying to another
message!  Sorry for the imprecision.  Hope you can help.

                                    Sincerely,
                                    Mark A. Campbell

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 4 May 1994 to 5 May 1994
***********************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 5 May 1994 to 6 May 1994
To: Recipients of WWII-L digests <WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Status: O

There are 27 messages totalling 875 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. MEDIA: Combat! marathon (3)
  2. MISC. Feldgendarmerie Gorget
  3. NAVY: 1936 U-boat listing (2)
  4. INF: USN Chronology 05-06-94
  5. INF: USAAF 6-8 MAY 44 (3)
  6. [TRIV] Costal defense guns
  7. HELP!! (2)
  8. P-61 Black Widow
  9. ref:channel islands
 10. Looking for WWII aircraft model repro (2)
 11. Sir Dr. Archibald McIndoe
 12. machine guns vs cannons.
 13. Spam in Europe (2)
 14. MEDIA:Prime Time Search for Nazis (2)
 15. The Army / Navy 'E'  award
 16. Prime Time
 17. Re[2]: MEDIA: Combat! marathon
 18. "E" AWARDS

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 May 1994 18:43:32 MET
From:    Ireneusz Jakobik <SCUD@PLSZUS11.BITNET>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Combat! marathon

Are you guys talking only about American shows? There's a British comedy
TV series 'Allo 'Allo. It's got crazy English sense of humor.
Irek.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 May 1994 01:23:39 -0500
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: MISC. Feldgendarmerie Gorget

Michael,

The German soldiers wearing what you call a "breastplate" is called
a gorget.  It was worn as a badge of office for the military field
police (MP's in our army), which the Germans called the
"feldgendarmerie".  SO, in those COMBAT episodes, they were dealing with
German MPs or soldiers assigned to traffic control points along a supply route.

I'm sure Bill Huber will add more info to this.

Barry

Barrett F. Lowe               RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
 -----------------------------

     The two gotgets were of different design, too. I believe that the
MPs version had a large German eagle on it, and that the flag bearers
had crossed flags on it, as did their shoulder patch. Sorry I can't be
more precise, but the books are at home, ya see.

                                                Regards
                                                Bob Kieran
                                                rkieran@near.net

 -----------------------------
End of WWII-L Digest - 3 May 1994 to 4 May 1994
***********************************************


Hi Folks,

Not much I can really add to this except to point out that the
beginning of Joe & my favorite movie, "Kelly's Heros" there is a
feldgendarmerie NCO directing traffic with his "lollypop" and he is
correctly wearing the gorget.  Kelly mounts him on the hood of his
jeep when the NCO noticed that Kelly was not a German and reached for
his pistol.  Gorgets are worn by the guards at the train yard that
Oddball shoots up later in the movie but they probably should have
been Bahnhofswache rather than Feldgendarmerie but what the heck.
The uniforms in that movie were quite good with minor exceptions which
was due to the technical advisor, Brian L. Davis.

Max Hastings in his book _Das Reich_ mentions that two partisans were
captured and executed because one of them had in his possession three
of these gorgets and the German Field Police were not in the habit of
giving these away as souveniers.

Gorgets go back a long way in military heraldry and are traced back to
knights in armor by some authors.  You see them depicted in 18th
century British uniforms for officers quite often.  The Germans used
the idea and there are numerous different ones but the most common are
for the field police and the flag carriers as pointed out quite well
in earlier messages.

The ones for the field police served a functional purpose too.  The
eagle, two round discs and the words Feldgendarmerie were painted in a
luminescent paint so they would be visible at night.  The "lollypop"
was painted that way too.

Cheers,  Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 May 1994 01:41:19 -0500
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: NAVY: 1936 U-boat listing

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 15:22:59 -0400
>From:    Norrin M Ripsman <nripsman@SAS.UPENN.EDU>
Subject: German Navy 1936

I know this is before WWII, but I thought I'd give it a shot.  Does anyone
know where I can find sources on both the composition of the German navy
[and in particular U-boats] and the relative naval balance between France
and Germany in 1936?

Thanks in advance,

Norrin M. Ripsman

 -----------------------------

Hi Norrin,

I'm not sure if this is what you are looking for but I have a 1937
rank list of the Kriegsmarine which lists every U-boat in service at
that time and provides a listing of the officers aboard each one.  If
that would be helpful let me know.

Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 May 1994 01:23:26 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@CCLINK.LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 05-06-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr44.txt

1944
05/06 Sat.  United States naval vessel damaged:
             Destroyer escort BUCKLEY (DE-51), by intentional
              ramming of German submarine, mid-Atlantic area,
              17 d. 17' N., 32 d. 24' W.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 May 1994 07:45:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: INF: USAAF 6-8 MAY 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
6 TO 8 MAY 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT Air Force (RAF)T MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  P-61, Northrop Black Widow
  Vengeance, Vultee

SATURDAY, 6 MAY 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 14 B-25s bomb Indainggyi,
destroy the Sibong bridge and damage a road at Hpaungzeik; 90+ P-40s, Royal
Air Force (RAF) Vengeances, P-51s and B-25s attack a wide variety of targets
throughout the Mogaung Valley; 18 fighter-bombers and 6 B-25s support ground
forces at Mawlu while 3 B-25s and 4 P-51s hit positions at Nalong.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 61 P-40s and 5 B-25s attack targets
throughout S China and French Indochina. In China, numerous vehicles and
troops are destroyed in the Hsiangcheng, Loyang and Luchou areas; main
buildings at Nanchang mines are destroyed, Sienning bridge is damaged and
several railroad cars and vehicles are destroyed near Puchi; and 14 B-25s
and 25 fighter-bombers pound the airfield and surrounding area at Hankow. In
French Indochina, 8 boxcars are destroyed and 70 more damaged between Thanh
Moi and Bac Le and between Phu Lang Thuong and Lang Son; a barge is sunk at
Campha Port and numerous sampans and small craft sunk or damaged at Cat Ba
Island.
  Detachment of 22d Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 341st Bombardment Group
(Medium), operating from Yunnani, China with B-25s returns to base at
Yangkai.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 340: 168 bombers and 185
fighters are dispatched to hit NOBALL (V-weapon) targets in France; 90 B-17s
dispatched to the Pas de Calais area return to base with bombs due to cloud
cover over the target; 70 of 78 B-24s hit Siracourt; 48 B-17s are damaged.
Escort is provided by 57 Ninth Air Force P-38s, 47 P-47s and 81 P-51s without
loss.
  Mission 341: 5 of 5 B-17s drop 3.22 million leaflets on 19 towns in
France and Belgium; 1 B-17 encounters a night fighter and claims 0-1-0; the
B-17 is damaged.
  22 B-24s are dispatched on CARPETBAGGER operations.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 75 B-26s and A-20s dispatched to
attack coastal defenses abort the mission because of weather.
  422d Night Fighter Squadron, 71st Fighter Wing, moves from Charmy Down to
Scorton, England with P-61s; first mission is 3 Jul.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): About 300 B-17s and B-24s,
escorted by P-51s and P-38s, hit targets in Rumania; the B-17s attack an
aircraft factory at Brasov and marshalling yard at Turnu Severin; the B-24s
bomb Ploesti/Campina marshalling yard and an aircraft factory at Brasov.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, A-20s pound a storage
area at Itri; A-36s hit rail lines in the Viterbo area; P 40s hit guns,
tracks and railroad station in and around Frosinone, and rail lines,
stations, roads and town area in and near Itri, Colleferro and Sezze; P-47s
hit Certaldo marshalling yard and numerous railroad and highway targets,
including several bridges.
  HQ 324th Fighter Group and 314th Fighter Squadron move from Cercola to
Pignataro Maggiore, Italy with P-40s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-25s from Makin Island and
Kwajalein Atoll hit Wotje and Jaluit Atolls. B-24s, staging through Eniwetok
Atoll, escort US Navy (USN) aircraft on a photo reconnaissance of Guam
Island, Marianas Islands. The B-24s bomb Guam from 20,000 ft (6,096 m),
scoring hits on 2 airfields and a town area and proceed to Los Negros
Island, Admiralty Islands to prepare for the return flight; the B-24s claim
4 enemy aircraft shot down.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): 24 B-25s and 12 P-39s pound
the Talili Bay area on New Britain Island. 37 P-39s and 19 P-40s attack
targets in the Porton area, Bougainville Island.
  HQ 4th Photographic Group (Reconnaissance) moves from Espiritu Santo
Island, New Hebrides Islands to Guadalcanal Island, Solomon Islands.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): B-24s bomb Penfoei, Timor
Island, Lesser Sunda Islands and Biak Island off New Guinea. In New Guinea,
150+ B-25s, A-20s and fighter-bombers, operating almost continuously
throughout the day, blast a variety of targets from Wewak to the shores of
Hansa Bay. B-24s of the Thirteenth Air Task Force again bomb Woleai Atoll.

SUNDAY, 7 MAY 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 15 P-38s hit the Kangaung area; 4
P-40s hit targets of opportunity along the road from N of Nanyaseik to
Kamaing. 4 B-24s lay mines in the Gulf of Siam off Sattahib, Thailand.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 4 B-25s hit vehicle concentrations
W and NW of Hsiangcheng and bomb the town of Chiahsien and 4 P-40s destroy at
least 25 trucks between the 2 towns; 8 P-40s destroy or damage 40-60 trucks,
tanks and other vehicles during road sweeps from Loyang to Yenshih and from
Yehhsien to Paofeng; 8 P-40s strafe forces and equipment E of Luchou, while 4
hit railroad targets of opportunity at Lang Son, French Indochina.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 342: In the morning, 922
bombers and 764 fighters are dispatched to bomb targets in Germany; 9 bombers
and 4 fighters are lost; 1 Luftwaffe aircraft is claimed shot down:
  1. 600 B-17s are dispatched on a PFF attack on Berlin; 514 bomb the
primary and 39 hit targets of opportunity; 8 B-17s are lost, 2 are damaged
beyond repair and 265 damaged; 8 airmen are KIA, 14 WIA and 83 MIA.
  2. Of 322 B-24s dispatched, 147 bomb Munster and 165 bomb Osnabruck; 1
B-24 is lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 22 damaged; 1 airman is KIA, 2
WIA and 6 MIA.
  Escort is provided by 153 P-38s, 317 P-47s and 284 P-51s; 2 P-38s, 1 P-47
and 1 P-51 are lost, 1 P-51 is damaged beyond repair and 5 P-38s, 3 P-47s
and 1 P-51 damaged; 3 pilots are MIA.
  In the afternoon, 29 of 67 B-24s bomb the marshalling yard at Liege,
Belgium without loss; escort is provided by 24 P-47s and 51 P-51s without
loss.
  Mission 343: 3 of 4 B-17s drop 1.6 million leaflets on 16 towns in C
France without loss.
  14 B-24s are dispatched on CARPETBAGGER missions without loss.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 420+ B-17s and B-24s bomb
targets in Rumania and Yugoslavia; the B-17s and B-24s hit marshalling
yards at Bucharest, Rumania and 38 B-17s also hit a railroad bridge at
Belgrade, Yugoslavia; 62 P-51s escort heavy bombers to the target and 53
provide withdrawal escort; 84 P-38s fly target cover.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, weather remains poor and
precludes medium bomber operations; A-20s hit a dump SW of Albano Laziale;
fighter-bombers hit communications, especially roads, with excellent results;
roads, motor transports, trains, gun positions, bridges, tracks, marshalling
yards, harbor areas and other targets are attacked in areas around
Stimigliano, Vetralla, Viterbo, Bracciano, Anzio, Manziana, Acquapendente,
Civitavecchia, Terracina, Rome and Elba Island.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-24s, staging through Eniwetok
Atoll, bomb Truk Atoll during the night of 6/7 May. B-25s from Engebi Island
hit Ponape Island during the following day. Makin Island-based B-25s bomb
Jaluit and Wotje Atolls.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): 15 B-25s, hampered by bad
weather, attack a coastal gun on Cape Friendship, Bougainville Island and
bomb the west coast of Rantan Island, Solomon Islands; 70+ P-39s, P-38s and
P-40s bomb numerous targets throughout Buka and Bougainville Islands
including shipping and supply area at Chabai and Tsirogei, huts at Hiru
Hiru, near Tonu, and at Monoitu and bridges W of Haigi and on the Miwo
River.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, B-24s, B-25s
and P-40s hit Urarom, Biak Island, the Hollandia-Wakde coast, and Sawar-
Maffin Bay area; A-20s, B-25s and fighter-bombers again attack targets of
opportunity from Wewak to the area around Hansa Bay and strafe villages along
the Sepik River.
  90th Bombardment Squadron (Light), 3d Bombardment Group (Light), moves
from Nadzab to Hollandia, New Guinea with A-20s.

MONDAY, 8 MAY 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 9 B-24s and 9 B-25s bomb Moirang
and a village to the N, causing considerable damage including the destruction
of a road bridge; 12 P-38s hit Kangaung Airfield.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO): General Dwight D Eisenhower sets D-Day
for the Normandy invasion as 5 Jun; the date subsequently will be changed to
6 Jun.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 344: In the morning, 807
bombers and 729 fighters are dispatched to hit targets in Germany in a PFF
mission; the bombers claim 76-16-16 Luftwaffe fighters, the fighters claim
55-4-20; 36 bombers and 13 fighters are lost:
  1. 500 B-17s are dispatched to bomb Berlin; 386 B-17s hit the primary, 42
bomb Brunswick, 17 bomb Brandenburg and 8 bomb Magderburg; 25 B-17s are lost,
1 is damaged beyond repair and 169 damaged; 1 airman is KIA, 7 WIA and 261
MIA.
  2. 307 B-24s are dispatched to Brunswick; 288 hit the primary and 1 hits a
target of opportunity; 11 B-24s are lost, 7 are damaged beyond repair and 28
damaged; 7 airmen are KIA, 8 WIA and 112 MIA.
  Escort is provided by 152 P-38s, 295 P-47s and 282 P-51s; the P-38s claim
6-0-3 Luftwaffe aircraft, the P-47s claim 9-1-5 and the P-51s claim 40-3-12;
4 P-38s, 4 P-47s and 5 P-51s are lost; 1 P-47 and 1 P-51 are damaged beyond
repair; 3 P-47s and 1 P-51 are damaged; 1 pilot is WIA and 13 MIA.
  Mission 345: In the afternoon, 164 bombers and 97 fighters are dispatched
against targets in France and Belgium; 5 bombers are lost:
  1. 92 of 101 B-17s bomb V-weapon sites at Glacerie and Sottevast, France; 5
B-17s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 29 damaged; 28 airmen are MIA.
  2. 57 of 63 B-24s hit Brussels/Schaerbeck marshalling yard, Belgium; 29
B-24s are damaged; 2 airmen are KIA, 2 WIA and 19 MIA.
  Escort is provided by 97 P-47s without loss.
  Mission 346: 3 of 4 B-17s drop 1.6 million leaflets on 10 towns in France
without loss.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): About 450 B-26s and A-20s bomb
marshalling yards, coastal defenses, bridges, airfields and V-weapons sites
in France and Belgium.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, fighter-bombers hit
roads and railroads N of Rome, a supply dump N of Anzio beachhead, and the
station at Colleferro; numerous trucks and railroad cars are destroyed and
many troops killed; Attacks against rolling stock on the Rome-Orte rail line
are especially effective.
  Unit moves in Italy: HQ 62d Troop Carrier Group and 4th, 7th and 8th Troop
Carrier Squadrons from Ponte Olivo, Sicily to Gaudo Airfield (4th Troop
Carrier Squadron is operating from bases in India); 524th Fighter-Bomber
Squadron, 27th Fighter-Bomber Group, from Castel Volturno to Santa Maria with
P-40s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-25s from Engebi Island strike
Ponape Island while Makin Island-based B-25s pound Jaluit and Wotje Atolls,
using Majuro Atoll as a shuttle base between strikes. B-24s that landed at
Los Negros Island after the strike on Guam Island on 6 May return to the
Marshall Islands, bombing Ponape Island en route.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): Fighter-bombers pound
Tobera Airfield, New Britain Island and strafe targets of opportunity in the
area. 2 squadrons of B-24s bomb gun positions at Sohano Island, Solomon
Islands and Hahilia, New Britain Island while on Bougainville Island, 30+
P-39s and P-40s hit areas around Porton, Tsimba, Tarara, Kieta, Numa Numa,
Tsirogei and at several other points and B-25s blast the coast near Banin,
hit Sohano Island, and bomb airfield areas at Bonis and Buka on Buka Island.
  390th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 42d Bombardment Group (Medium), based
in the Russell Islands, Solomon Islands with B-25s, ceases operating from
Stirling Island, Solomon Islands.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, B-24s and
P-40s operating in the Geelvink Bay area attack Mokmer Airfield and nearby
shipping; A-20s and fighter-bombers continue to pound targets of opportunity
along the NE New Guinea coast from Wewak to Hansa Bay and along the Sepik
River.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 May 1994 06:47:54 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: [TRIV] Costal defense guns

Hello, Jim!

Glad to hear from you again.

> Didn't the coastal defense guns at Wake Island turn back a Japanese
> landing attempt and sink/damage some vessels?
> I'm not sure; can somebody enlighten?
>
    Yes. Consult the book "Wake Island Command" by Commander Daniel
C. Cunningham, the commander of the garrison there.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 May 1994 08:02:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: HELP!!

i am looking for help in three areas and you should also be aware that
the ftp feature is inoperative at our location.

1. I believe the 5-star rank was created in the US military in 1944 but
does anyone have an exact date?  And were all the recipients (Marshall,
Arnold, Nimitz, etc.) confirmed by the Congress on the same day?

2. Does anyone have any information on the TINY TIM rocket of WWII?

3. Some time ago, there was a discussion about replying to mail received
over the net.  Several persons said that when they reply, their mail went
back to the originator and not to the list; someone then suggested a solution
for this problem.  Well, I have the problem and I thought I saved the
solution but now I cannot find it.  Will whomever suggested a solution
please send it again.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 May 1994 07:06:01 -0500
From:    Michael D Wallick <msmdw@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: INF: USAAF 6-8 MAY 44

What were the Carpetbagger Operations?

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 May 1994 07:12:16 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: P-61 Black Widow

Hello, Aldo, Emmanuel, Peter and others!

Here goes with the more info on the P-61.

Flight tests with the YP-61s revealed a problem with the dorsal
turret which caused severe tail buffeting whenever the turret was
moved (elevated or rotated). So severe was the problem, that
consideration was given to completely delete the turret from
production P-61s. Several quick fix solutions were tried including
adding small air foils over the guns, deletion of two of the guns and
reinforcing the turret. The easiet solution was to fix (lock) the
turret to fire forward. The problem ironed itself out during the P-
61A program when the turret became unavailable and the aircraft were
built without them.

The YP-61s went into service during October 1943, being issued to the
422nd Night Fighter Squadron at Orlando Air Base, Florida. The
aircraft served as trainers and no YP-61 ever saw combat. The two XP-
61s were relegated to trainer duties at Hawthorne to train mechanics
on the P-61.

What follows now are some remarks about the P-61A program.

                P-61A

Externally, the production P-61A was quite similar to the XP-61
prototype and YP-61 service test aircraft, differing in the slope of
the windscreen/canopy and in the camouflage scheme in which it was
delivered. The sloped windscreen in the pilot and gunner's canopies
used in the XP-61 and YP-61 were replaced by sharply angled
windscreens that featured armored glass panels.

More tomorrow.

Terry






Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 May 1994 08:28:15 EDT
From:    MNHAD007@SIVM.SI.EDU
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Combat! marathon

Oh you mean how is gorget pronounced in German? :) I thought you meant in
English.....:(  Imagine my embarrassment because of my Fox Pass :)

Please no flames Terry I am only joking and my family is originally from the
panhandle so I would'nt kid you would I?      ;)

H. A. Kurt Luginbyhl
Scientific Computer Specialist
National Museum of Natural History
Washington D.C. 20560

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 May 1994 09:06:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: INF: USAAF 6-8 MAY 44

 >What were the Carpetbagger Operations?

CARPETBAGGER Operations were the dropping of personnel and supplies
to partisan organizations in Europe.  There was a similar operation
in the Med but I don't know if it had a specific name.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 May 1994 09:20:38 -0400
From:    Norrin M Ripsman <nripsman@SAS.UPENN.EDU>
Subject: Re: NAVY: 1936 U-boat listing

WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA wrote:
>
> I'm not sure if this is what you are looking for but I have a 1937
> rank list of the Kriegsmarine which lists every U-boat in service at
> that time and provides a listing of the officers aboard each one.  If
> that would be helpful let me know.
>
> Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil
>

Hi Bill:

Thanks for your post.  This list would indeed be helpful.

Norrin

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 May 1994 10:17:30 -0400
From:    David Rising <drising@IO.ORG>
Subject: ref:channel islands

I was talking with a friend yesterday and he was telling me that there
was soon to be a book released about the Channel Islands under German
occupation (specifically about a certain individual I think). Does anyone
know what book he was talking about (i.e. title?) and when the publishing
date is? Thanks in advance,
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 May 1994 08:09:08 -0700
From:    George Diez <radicus@KAIWAN.COM>
Subject: Looking for WWII aircraft model repro

Subject says it all, need to find a company that specializes in warbirds
and makes prebuilt collectible scaled reproductions of WWII aircraft.

Thanks in advance,

 George

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 May 1994 08:38:42 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Sir Dr. Archibald McIndoe

There was a most moving account of Dr McIndoe in a book entitled:
        THE GUINEAPIG CLUB.
Published a long time ago, so may be difficult to find now, but
it contained a good deal of information about the man and his
restorative sugery with burned aircrew.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 May 1994 11:39:30 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: machine guns vs cannons.

>
> Interesting article in the April issue of Air International about gun develop-
> ment for aviation...there is apparently now a cannon of 12.7 m.m. I guess that
> this is an issue which will never be settled to everyone's satisfaction.

I'm not sure that it is really a cannon.  I haven't read the article yet, but
the current "Soldier of Fortune" describes an explosive projectile for the
.50BMG which contains a PETN filling.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 May 1994 12:25:09 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>
Subject: Re: HELP!!

On Fri, 6 May 1994, mc killop wrote:
> 1. I believe the 5-star rank was created in the US military in 1944 but
> does anyone have an exact date?  And were all the recipients (Marshall,
> Arnold, Nimitz, etc.) confirmed by the Congress on the same day?

According to Eisenhower's EISENHOWER, his grandfather learned on 16 Dec
1944 that he had been placed on the five-star promotion list along with
Pershing, Leahy, Marshall, King, MacArhur, Nimitz, Arnold, and Halsey.

> 3. Some time ago, there was a discussion about replying to mail received
> over the net.  Several persons said that when they reply, their mail went
> back to the originator and not to the list; someone then suggested a solution
> for this problem.  Well, I have the problem and I thought I saved the
> solution but now I cannot find it.  Will whomever suggested a solution
> please send it again.

I had this problem but it went away by itself.

Cheers - Dan     <dan.ford@unh.edu>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 May 1994 12:31:20 -0400
From:    Emery Ford <eford@DELPHI.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spam in Europe

On May5, Terry Moore wrote---
>
>
>Hello, All!
>
>I was wondering how may ways there are or were in preparing spam.
>Let's see, there are spam-burgers, spam-sandwiches, fried spam,
>boiled spam, etc. Any others?
>
>Terry
>
>Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
>P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
>fax 806-371-5370

Once when I was in the mountains of the Sierra Nevada a bear secured a
significant portion of our food supplies, forcing us to become
innovative in our meal preparation.  It was our last night of a four day
hike.  We had Spam, cheese, tomato sauce and noodles.  We put it all
together and, voila! Spam Parmegian.  It was pretty hideous, and I like
Spam.
        --Em

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 May 1994 13:24:33 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <sep@TVSS2.COMMNET.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spam in Europe

I sometimes dice the SPAM, and immerse it in a cheese omelet. Enough cheese
and garlic salt, and it'e not bad.

SPAM: The Rodney Dangerfield of cuisine. Many love it, but it gets no respect!

                                                                :-))Steve

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 May 1994 13:37:44 -0400
From:    QUACK <MUSCORJ@HSDWL.UTC.COM>
Subject: Re: Looking for WWII aircraft model repro

Check the back pages of Aviation Week & Spy Technology.
If the mag is unavailable, let me know and I'll send you the addresses.

Ron

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 May 1994 14:28:07 -0400
From:    Kevin Kamphaus <usr5066a@TSO.UC.EDU>
Subject: MEDIA:Prime Time Search for Nazis

Anyone else catch the Prime Time on The Search for Nazis last night? I found
it interesting how Argentina has opened up thier files on German immigration
right after the war. It also delt with the OSS dept of the USA and the Vatican
supporting the operations because they felt that these ex-Nazis would be
useful in the fight against the Russians and Communist. They also tracked down
a couple of ex-Nazis who had worked in concentration camps and/or committed
murder of civilians. They asked one gent if he thought he was a war criminal,
he responded "no".  Which made me wonder why then was he living in Argentina?
And, why was he living under a different name?


Kevin Kamphaus
usr5066a@tso.uc.edu
kamphaus@petsys.ae.ge.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 May 1994 14:25:04 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Combat! marathon

Hello, Kurt!

Glad to hear from you once again, and hope you are well.

> Oh you mean how is gorget pronounced in German? :) I thought you meant in
> English.....:(  Imagine my embarrassment because of my Fox Pass :)

    In German, I guess it would be pronounced Gor-get with hard g's
on both syllables. The French is Gor zhay with hard g on the first
syllable with a soft g on the second with an ay (as in hay) finish.


> Please no flames Terry I am only joking and my family is originally from the
> panhandle so I would'nt kid you would I?      ;)

    Glad to know that. I am certain that it hasn't changed much since
your family was here. Where are they from? I know you wouldn't kid me
(ha! ha!). Nor I you, Kurt.

All the best, and please stay in touch.

Terry




Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 May 1994 15:25:10 EDT
From:    WCAM0046@URIACC.URI.EDU
Subject: The Army / Navy 'E'  award

hello
     Does anyone know how many "E" awards were given for war prduction?
  My grand uncle recived one for his machine shop production. His crew also
 recieved individual awards as well.  Within the past year at yard sales I
    managed to pick up for pennies two Army Navy "E" award pins.  Is there a
     way to tell if they are authentic?
    Someone mentioned to me that there was a documentary on the "E" awards that
   was on the Discovery Channel.  Does anyone know what the name of the program
 was, or when it will be aired again.  I heard that my grand uncle was mentione
d in it. Thank you.  Could you please send your replies to
                     wcam0046@uriacc.uri.edu

                                B. Cameron

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 May 1994 15:37:13 -0400
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: Prime Time

Kevin asks if anyone else watched the Nazi hunting segment of the
TV show "Prime Time" last night.  I saw it.  I was interested to
learn about Argentina opening their files, and about the OSS
and Vatican connections, but I thought that those were the more
interesting parts of the segment.  I'm not partial to Sam Donaldson
and his ambush style of journalism.  Confronting a man as he's
trying to get in his car and drive away doesn't often lead to a
balanced presentation, IMHO.  A less adversarial interview,
conducted in a studio or in his home would have probably been
more illuminating.  Instead, Donaldson made it into a sensationalist
piece more suited for the pages of the National Enquirer than
a broadcast national news program.  I would like to have seen more
on the exact hows and whys of what was apparently an organized
escape route, and certainly more on Mengele, than to see a microphone
pointed at a former SS captain while Donaldson asked him penetrating
questions like "Are you a Nazi?"

Just my two cents worth....

Dennis E. Sparks
sparks@caer.uky.edu
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 May 1994 16:15:35 EDT
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor,
         Marist Coll" <JZML@MARISTB.BITNET>
Subject: Re[2]: MEDIA: Combat! marathon

>Are you guys talking only about American shows? There's a British comedy
>TV series 'Allo 'Allo. It's got crazy English sense of humor.
>Irek.
Not to mention the hysterically funny "Dad's Army" about the British
Home Guard.

Jonah Triebwasser
Adjunct Instructor
Marist College
Dyson Building (Adult Education)
Poughkeepsie, New York12601
Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
E-Mail: jzml@maristb.marist.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 May 1994 18:29:42 -0500
From:    Ronald A Wilson <wilson@BATTELLE.ORG>
Subject: "E" AWARDS

Text item: Text_1

   The "E" stood for EXCELLENCE and was used by the War
   Department to give a pat to war materials producers for jobs
   well done.  I have the program from, I think, 1942, on the day
   Boeing in Seattle received their "E" pennant.  The program is
   signed by Wm. Boeing, the WA governor, Seatle mayor, and
   several others including a general or two. Was a great $10
   find at an antique store though the signatures are fading.
   Magazine ads from the war years often show the "E" award
   pennant somewhere on their copy.

   Ron Wilson  Wilson@Battelle.org
   Seattle

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 May 1994 23:30:53 +0000
From:    David Rising <drising@IO.ORG>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Prime Time Search for Nazis

On Fri, 6 May 1994, Kevin Kamphaus wrote:

--non-contextual material deleted--
> They asked one gent if he thought he was a war criminal,
> he responded "no".  Which made me wonder why then was he living in Argentina?
> And, why was he living under a different name?

To give a speculative answer to this hypothetical question, could it be
perhaps that he had been a member of the Nazi party or SS or any other
organization deemed criminal by the allies? While many in these
organizations were indeed criminals (before you hit that reply key
Sidney), many others (read Oskar Schindler et. al.) were not. They were,
nonetheless, guilty by association, but not of any "war crime". Just a
thought.
David Rising

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 5 May 1994 to 6 May 1994
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 11 messages totalling 545 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Russo-Japanese Border Clashes (3)
  2. machine guns vs cannons.
  3. MEDIA:Prime Time Search for Nazis
  4. INF: FDR Online (fwd from H-Teach)
  5. REF: TIME LIFE BOOKS ON WWII? (2)
  6. NOST: 50 years ago this week
  7. YTRIV" Coastal Defense Guns
  8. ARC: German Antiguerrilla Operations in the Balkans (1941-1944)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 7 May 1994 00:01:26 -0400
From:    Emery Ford <eford@DELPHI.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Russo-Japanese Border Clashes

Howdy folks,

        I'm reading _A_World_At_Arms_ and the author describes briefly
the border clashes between the Soviet and Japanese Armies.  Can anyone
give a clear picture as to the scale, duration and intensity of these
skirmishes?  Wasn't Zhukov in charge of the Soviet forces?  These clashes
were known as the Nomonhan Incident, and alternatively as the Khalkin-gol
Incident.  The author cites a book by someone named Coox called _Nomonhan_
Has anybody read, or heard of, this book?
        Also, does anyone know what rank and the circumstances surrounding
Zhukov at the time of, and subsequent to,  Stalin's purge of the military?

        Thanks,
                --Emery

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 7 May 1994 04:09:28 -0400
From:    "Mark A. Campbell" <marka@WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Russo-Japanese Border Clashes

Alvin Coox's _Nomonhon_ is the standard account of the Russo-Japanese
encounter; 2 volumes, about a thousand pages, as I recall!
A superb work.
                         Mark A. Campbell

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 7 May 1994 07:23:31 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Russo-Japanese Border Clashes

Hello, Emery!


>         I'm reading _A_World_At_Arms_ and the author describes briefly
> the border clashes between the Soviet and Japanese Armies.  Can anyone
> give a clear picture as to the scale, duration and intensity of these
> skirmishes?  Wasn't Zhukov in charge of the Soviet forces?  These clashes

    Yes. Zhukov was in charge of those border forces at the time of
Khalkin-Gol. That was in 1939, I believe.

 > were known as the Nomonhan Incident, and alternatively
as the Khalkin-gol
> Incident.  The author cites a book by someone named Coox called _Nomonhan_
> Has anybody read, or heard of, this book?

    No, not familiar with that one.

>         Also, does anyone know what rank and the circumstances surrounding
> Zhukov at the time of, and subsequent to,  Stalin's purge of the military?

    Zhukov was a Colonel-General at the time of that clash with the
Japanese. BTW, Zhukov beat the Japanese so severely at that time,
that they never again posed a serious threat to the Russians
thereafter.

    Will have to research an answer to your last question. I know
that Rokossovski was imprisoned during the purges but rehabilitated
quickly because of the worsening political situation in the West. I
am not certain that Zhukov was, either, but if not, then he was sent
to command in areas as remote as the Chinese-Russian border, which
amounted, I suppose, to a sort of exile. I will check on that.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry



Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 7 May 1994 08:58:42 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: machine guns vs cannons.

>
> >
> > Interesting article in the April issue of Air International about gun develop-
> > ment for aviation...there is apparently now a cannon of 12.7 m.m. I guess that
> > this is an issue which will never be settled to everyone's satisfaction.
>
> I'm not sure that it is really a cannon.  I haven't read the article yet, but
> the current "Soldier of Fortune" describes an explosive projectile for the
> .50BMG which contains a PETN filling.

Correction, make that RDX instead of PETN.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 7 May 1994 21:17:27 +0700
From:    "Peter E. Beal" <bealp@MORAKOT.NECTEC.OR.TH>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Prime Time Search for Nazis

On Fri, 6 May 1994, David Rising wrote:

> On Fri, 6 May 1994, Kevin Kamphaus wrote:
>
> --non-contextual material deleted--
> > They asked one gent if he thought he was a war criminal,
> > he responded "no".  Which made me wonder why then was he living in Argentina?
> > And, why was he living under a different name?
>
> To give a speculative answer to this hypothetical question, could it be
> perhaps that he had been a member of the Nazi party or SS or any other
> organization deemed criminal by the allies? While many in these
> organizations were indeed criminals (before you hit that reply key
> Sidney), many others (read Oskar Schindler et. al.) were not. They were,
> nonetheless, guilty by association, but not of any "war crime". Just a
> thought.

Nah.  They were just following orders!

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 7 May 1994 12:04:58 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: INF: FDR Online (fwd from H-Teach)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 May 1994 10:19:53 -0500
From:    "H-Teach (Mark Kornbluh)" <hteach@artsci.wustl.edu>
Subject: FYI: INFORMA conference & FDR on line (fwd)

Date: Thu, 5 May 1994 14:48:41 -0600
From: H-NET (Richard Jensen) <CAMPBELLD%APSU.bitnet@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu>

IMAGE INFORMATION RESOURCE FOR HISTORIANS

INFORMA is a forum for users of IBM technology in libraries. This
year's INFORMA Conference, titled "Images as Information
Resources--Moving Ahead of the Curve," explored the opportunities and
problems of integrating image information into electronic library
collections and services. While the Internet is a great resource for
bibliographical and textual information collections, there are few
image collections currently available. Based on what I saw at the 1994
INFORMA Conference, we should expect, in the next couple of years, more
projects combining image information storage with online delivery.

One of the projects presented at the conference was "FDR: Day by Day,"
a joint undertaking between the Franklin D. Roosevelt Library, Marist
College, and IBM. The project will present a chronology of FDR's
presidency and deliver, via telecommunications technology, texts of
speeches (including images of original drafts with FDR's handwritten
changes), newspaper accounts, handwritten letters received by FDR,
newsreel footage of FDR's speeches, and other documentary film from the
World War II era.

The project will be a model for how other presidential libraries may
someday make their research materials available to students, teachers,
and researchers. March 1995 is the target date for getting the first
stage of the chronology on the Internet. Nearly 1000 scholars have been
invited to submit additions, annotations, or challenges to entries. An
email address has been set up for historians who are interested in this
project. If you would like to be included, send email to:
FDRL@MaristB.Marist.edu

==========================================================


JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Co-Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU (Historical docs)
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 7 May 1994 17:36:19 EDT
From:    Robert E George <regeorge@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Subject: REF: TIME LIFE BOOKS ON WWII?

Some time ago(circa 1976?) Time Life published a multivolume set
of books ( 9.5" by 11.5" ) on the 2nd World War. Lavish illustrations,
short articles, et cetera. Titles like "Battle of Britain" "Prelude to
War", "The Rising Sun", "Home Front U.S.A." and so forth.

     Can anybody please give me a list of all the titles and/or tell me how
many volumes there were?


     Thanks,

          Rob George

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 7 May 1994 18:01:40 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET>
Subject: Re: REF: TIME LIFE BOOKS ON WWII?

I recommend you check your local library for the series on WWII.

They should have it.

George Bauer
U.S.A.:  BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 7 May 1994 22:31:35 EDT
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor,
         Marist Coll" <JZML@MARISTB.BITNET>
Subject: NOST: 50 years ago this week

I have obtained two calendars, one from the International Churchill
Society and one from the US Department of Defense which highlights
some of the events of WWII. As time permits, I will post some of
these events:

Fifty Years ago this week:
Sources: (c) = Churchill society; (d) = Defense Dept.

8 May - Eisenhower sets June 5 for D-Day (c).
9 May - Churchill says of the Soviets: "I fear that very great evil
may come upon the world." (c)
11 May - 8th Army attacks at Cassino. (c)
12 May - Germans abandon Crimea. (c)
13 May - Allied bombing cuts Brenner Pass Railway (c).

Happy Mothers Day all (Is Mothers Day celebrated outside of the US?)

Jonah Triebwasser
Adjunct Instructor
Marist College
Dyson Building (Adult Education)
Poughkeepsie, New York12601
Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
E-Mail: jzml@maristb.marist.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 7 May 1994 22:52:26 EST
From:    "CARL WERNKE (TCWERNC@VCCSCENT)" <TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET>
Subject: Re: YTRIV" Coastal Defense Guns

 X-TO: WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu
 TO: Multiple recipients of list WWII-L (WWII-L@UBVM.BITNET)
 In-Reply-To: (9405052021.AA22267@agaviion.agfx.com)


 On Thu, 5 May 1994 15:44:24 -0700, Jim Benn wrote:
 > Didn't the coastal defense guns at Wake Island turn back a Japanese landing
 > attempt and sink/damage some vessels ? I'm not sure; can somebody enlighten?

 What is called Wake is actually a group of three islands: Peale, Wilkes, and
 Wake islands, the last being a low-ground atoll formed by a volcano with all
 its top submerged. The circumference of Wake (the three-island group) is less
 than three miles. The Japanese wanted Wake so that it could not serve as a
 base for American attacks on the Japanese-held MarshallIslands. Furthermore,
 the capture of Wake, along with Guam, would block the United States'
 mid-Pacific line of supply to the Philippines. In addition, possession of
 Wake would give the Japanese another link in their defense perimeter, and
 would provide a base for air reconnaissance and a possible steppingstone in
 an invasion of Midway Island.

 THe Fourth Fleet at Truk assigned the following ships to the Wake Island
 invasion: the light cruiser YUBARI (flagship of RADM Sadamichi Kajioka), the
 destroyers MUTSUKI, KISAGARI, YAOI,MOCHIZUKI, OITE, and HAYATE, escorting two
 transports (converted destroyers) with 450 Special Naval Landing Force (SNLF)
 personnel and two MARU transports carrying garrison troops. The light cruisers
 TENRYU and TATSUTA, OLD cruisers commissioned in 1919, would act as a support
 group. This definitely was not the Japanese first team, as events were soon to
 prove. The Wake Invasion Force sailed from Ruotta anchorage, Kwajalein,
 Marshall Islands, on 8 December, arriving off Wake two days later. The
 cruisers' Action Reports and the tactics of the invading force indicate little
 resistance was anticipated; the Japanese apparently assumed that the two days
 of bombing had rendered Wake relatively defenseless. The Japanese ships began
 their approach on 11 December shortly before 0500. In a typical destroyer
 squadron, the YUBARI would have been at the head of her six destroyers;
 this arrangement was modified, however, by situating the light cruisers
 TATSUTA and TENRYU between the YABURI and the destroyers, in a column
 formation. On the starboard side of the column were the two converted
 destroyers, on the port side were the two MARUS. Seas were running high, which
 would make the launching of assault craft slower and more difficult.

 The defenders at Wake had been blinking lights to the south shortly after
 midnight, so available defenses had been readied. The four remaining
 Grummanans took to the air as the approach was spotted, and the Marines stood
 to their three batteries of 5-inch guns, on battery on each of the three
 islands.

 The Japanese column opened fire at 0522, after having turned to port to make
 its firing run, paralleling Wake's southern perimiter at 6,000 yards from
 shore. The Marines on Wake held their fire, and the records of the TENRYU
 indicate that the Japanese bombardment target was the "Wake residential area"
 and "housing in the West area." Their target was definitely not the defense
 batteries. Oil tanks at the southwest end of Wake Island were hit, however,
 and set on fire. As the column advanced to the west, the transports began to
 prepare to land their troops. After twenty minutes, having reached the west
 edge of Wilkes Island, the YUBARI closed range to 4,500 yards  and reversed
 for another firing run. The Marine defenders still held their fire. At 0600
 the YUBARI reversed again, once more closing range for a third firing run,
 and at 0610, the island's batteries opened fire. Battery A, at southeast tip
 of Wake Island claimed to have hit the YUBARI with its second salvo,
 although the YUBARI's Action Report makes no mention of any damage. One of the
 conerted destroyers, carrying half of the SNLF troops, received a fatal hit
 from Battery A, at about the same time, and eventually drifted ashore at
 Wake Island.

 RADM Kajioka immediately retired his command ship to the southwest, escorting
 the remaining converted destroyers. The transports came under the fire of
 Battery L on Wilkes Island, and one of the MARUS was hit. The destroyers
 HAYATE, OITE, and MOCHIZUKI, in order to screen the transports and to deliver
 counterbattery fire, charged directly toward Battery L and thus proved once
 again the truth of an old naval dictum: fixed ground defense guns can usually
 outshoot attacking ships. The HAYATE, in the lead, was hit squarely by three
 salvos and blew up, with no survivors: 168 men were killed. The OITE was hit,
 with nineteen men wounded; along with the MOCHIZUKI, she turned
 south-southwest of Wilkes Island.

  Meanwhile, a reconstructed column made up of the YAYOI, MATSUKI, and
  KISARAGI, backed up by the TATSUTA and TENRYU, got into a fire fight with
  Battery B on Peale Island. the YAYOI was hit (one man killed, seventeen
  wounded), but she returned fire and did considerable damage to Battery B.

  The YUBARI's Action Report sums up the battle succinctly. "Although the
  enemy sustained heavy damage from the numerous attacks by the medium-attack
  bombers of the 24th Air Flotilla, he still retained intact several fighters,
  ground batteries, etc.-- he fiercely counterattacked and we were temporarily
  forced to retire." The total Japanese casualty list was 340 killed, 65
  wounded, and one converted destroyer transport, returned to Ruotta anchorage
  to repair its damages and to await reinforcements before a new effort. On
  Wake, the defense batteries were still intact, but there were only two planes
  left. Amazingly, only one U.S.Marine was killed. This battle certainly showed
  that warships should not charge into the point-blank range of 5-inch guns.


  Carl Wernke
  TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 7 May 1994 22:29:33 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: ARC: German Antiguerrilla Operations in the Balkans (1941-1944)

I have uploaded to

byrd.mu.wvnet.edu, /pub/history/military/wwii/special.studies

the U.S. publication

GERMAN ANTIGUERRILLA OPERTIONS IN THE BALKANS (1941-1944).

The text is available now, maps and charts will be made available as soon
as I get them. I have included the foreword and index for those who wish to
get an idea of the content of the booklet.

The names of the towns will be familiar to anyone who watches the news
these days, and the situation will be familiar to anyone who has read much
about Vietnam. And since this booklet was written in 1954 I can only
shake my head in wonder.

Larry J

JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Co-Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU (Historical docs)
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41
Page i



GERMAN ANTIGUERRILLA OPERATIONS IN THE BALKANS (1941-1944)

SUDOC D 114.19/3:G31/7

* This Publication replaces DA Pam 20-243, August 1954

For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government
Printing Office, Washington, DC 20402

Page ii

Facsimile Edition, 1989

Center of Military History
United States Army
Washington, D.C.

Page iii

FOREWORD

The purpose of this study is to describe briefly the German
campaign against the guerillas in the Balkans during the period
of the European Axis occupation, from the end of hostilities
against Greece and Yugoslavia in April 1941 to the capture of
Belgrade by the Soviet forces and the Partisans in October 1944.
The activities of Germany s Italian, Bulgarian, Croatian, and
other allies, as well as the British, Soviet, and United States
forces in the area, are treated only to the extent that they
affected German operations. In sequence of time, this study is a
continuation of Department of the Army CMH Pub 104-18, The
German Campaign in the Balkans (Spring 1941), of November 1953.

The material for this study was obtained from German military
records now in the custody of The Adjutant General, Department
of the Army. In addition to these official records, monographs
by former German officers who participated in these operations
furnished considerable general information and were of
assistance in supplementing the terse official reports of
specific actions. The authors of these monographs, prepared for
the Historical Division, United States Army, Europe, include
General der Gebirgstruppen (Lieutenant General) Hubert Lanz,
former commander of the XXII Mountain Corps, and Polizeioberst
(Colonel of Police) Karl Gaisser, German technical adviser to
the Croatian Police.

The work of preparing this study was done by Major Robert M.
Kennedy of the Office of the Chief of Military History. In its
presentation, every effort was made to give an accurate account
of the protracted attempt by the German occupation forces to
destroy their elusive guerrilla enemy in this secondary theater
of war from 1941 through 1944.

Page iv Blank

Page v

Part One. THE BALKAN AREA AND ITS PEOPLES................  1

Chapter 1. Physical Geography.

  I. Topography..........................................  2
 II. Climate.............................................  3

        2. National States

  I. General.............................................  4
 II. Greece..............................................  4
III. Yugoslavia..........................................  5
 IV. Albania.............................................  6
  V. Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania, and Turkey..............  7

        3. Transportation and Communications

  I. General.............................................  8
 II. Main Rail Lines.....................................  8
III. Principal Highways..................................  9
 IV. Waterways, Airfields, and Signal Facilities.........  9

Part Two. THE OCCUPATION OF THE BALKANS AND THE RISE OF
          THE GUERRILLA MOVEMENT (1941-42)............... 10

Chapter 4. The Occupation Zone and Forces

  I. Division and Dismemberment.......................... 13
 II. The Italians........................................ 13
III. The Germans......................................... 15
 IV. The Bulgarians and Hungarians....................... 17
  V. The Puppet Governments.............................. 18

        5. The Early Movement and Axis Countermeasures

  I. Yugoslavia.......................................... 20
 II. Greece.............................................. 27

        6. Organization of Guerrilla Units

  I. Unit and Command Structure.......................... 31
 II. Communications and Supply........................... 32
III. Training and Tactics................................ 33

Part Three. THE GUERRILLA MOVEMENT IN GREECE, YUGOSLAVIA,
            AND ALBANIA (1943-44)........................ 35

Chapter 7. Operations (January-August 1943)

  I. Yugoslavia.......................................... 36
 II. Greece.............................................. 38
III. The German Situation by Mid-1943.................... 40

        8. The Defection of Italy and its Effects

  I. General............................................. 44
 II. Yugoslavia and Albania.............................. 44
III. Greece.............................................. 45

Page vi

Part Three. THE GUERRILLA MOVEMENT IN GREECE, YUGOSLAVIA,
AND ALBANIA (1943-44)-Continued

Chapter 9. Operations to the End of 1943

  I. General............................................. 47
 II. Yugoslavia and Albania.............................. 50
III. Greece.............................................. 52

        10. Operations in 1944

  I. General............................................. 53
 II. The Area of Army Group E............................ 54
III. The Area of Army Group F............................ 64

        11. GEMSBOCK and STEINADLER...................... 70

Part Four. RESULTS AND CONCLUSIONS....................... 73

Appendix I. Chronology of Events......................... 79
        II. Bibliographical Note......................... 82

MAPS

No.
1. General Reference Map...........................Facing  1
2. The Partition of Greece............................... 12
3. The Partition of Yugoslavia........................... 14
4. German Dispositions in the Balkans as of
   Mid-August 1944....................................... 53
5. German Estimate of Guerrilla Strength and Dispositions
   in Greece as of Mid-August 1944....................... 61
6. German Estimate of Guerrilla Strength and Dispositions in
   in Yugoslavia and Albania as of Mid-August 1944.Facing 67
7. Operation GEMSBOCK..............................Facing 70
8. Operation STEINADLER............................Facing 72

CHARTS

No.

1. German Ground Force in Occupied Greece and Yugoslavia
   as of July 1941....................................... 17
2. German Ground Forces in Occupied Greece and Yugoslavia
   as of 1 December 1942................................. 27
3. German and Bulgarian Ground Forces in Occupied Greece,
   Yugoslavia and Albania as of 26 December 1943......... 51
4. German Ground Forces in Occupied Yugoslavia and Albania
   as of the Fall of Belgrade 20 October 1944............ 68

Page vii Map 1. General reference map.

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 6 May 1994 to 7 May 1994
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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 7 May 1994 to 8 May 1994
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There are 8 messages totalling 182 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. INF: USN Chronology 05-08-94
  2. Number of Airplanes Made 41-45
  3. Number of aircraft produced
  4. REF: TIME LIFE BOOKS ON WWII?
  5. D-Day Decoy
  6. HELP!!
  7. Sir Dr. Archibald McIndoe
  8. V-E Day

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 8 May 1994 01:35:54 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@CCLINK.LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 05-08-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr44.txt

1944
05/08 Mon. Carrier TICONDEROGA (CV-14), is commissioned at
           Newport News, Va.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 8 May 1994 10:12:01 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET>
Subject: Number of Airplanes Made 41-45

Can anybody tell me the number of airplanes manufactured from Pearl Harbor
to V-J day?  A specific reference would be much appreciated.

Thank you.

George Bauer
U.S.A.:  BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 8 May 1994 14:31:19 -0400
From:    Thomas Seay <SEAYT@COFC.EDU>
Subject: Number of aircraft produced

****George Bauer writes***********************************************

Can anybody tell me the number of airplanes manufactured from Pearl Harbor
to V-J day?  A specific reference would be much appreciated.

Thank you.

George Bauer
U.S.A.:  BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I get the following statistics from "Brute Force" by John Ellis (1990)
from table 55 on page 558:

Axis and Allied production of military aircraft from 1939-1945

COMBAT AIRCRAFT
Italy: 5,942
Japan: 45,363
Germany: 94,279

UK: 84,111
USSR: 128,847
USA: 197,760
Can & E. Gp.:6,501

Total Combat Aircraft produced:
        Axis: 145,584
        Allied: 417, 219

This table also has breakdowns for training aircraft and transport
aircraft.

Hope this helps, George.


Jerry Seay
College of Charleston, SC
seayt@cofc.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 8 May 1994 11:50:50 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: REF: TIME LIFE BOOKS ON WWII?

One TIME special edition on WW2, published in 1984, was laughably
superficial. It succeeded in producing a pictorial "history of WW2"
without any mention whatsoever of Canada.
When the understandable outrage from Canada registered in terms of
very low sales here, and therefore loss of revenue, the book's deficiencies
finally caught the attention at TIME's head office.
However, when the young "editor" responsible was asked how come, he\
shrugged, "Welll, you sort of take Canada for granted."
The experience did not exactly enhance TIME's reputation as being an
authority on the Second World War.  :-)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 May 1994 00:13:42 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVSDS.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: D-Day Decoy

>         How was it that the aircraft, which must have been travelling at 200
> hundred miles an hour, were not detected by the radar?  Even if the radar
> was in it early stages of development I would have thought night fighters
> would have sent to investigate.

Probably they were detected, but then, you expect some aircraft to fly
above the invasion fleet, just as air cover -- so there was nothig
suspicious about that. And there was little that the Germans could do
about it. First, they had very few aircraft at the Atlantic coast; the
allied had achieved complete air superiority. The Germans calculated the
relative strenghts in the air as 50 to 1. There were plans to detach 500
fighters from the defense of the 'Reich' and sent them to France once the
invasion had begun; but these were unavailable when time was there.

Second, electronic warfare had made a considerable advance during the
war. A large effort was made by aircraft carrying jamming equipment, to
disturb both the German radars and the comunications and command system
of the nightfighters, along the length of the Atlantic coast.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 May 1994 00:17:34 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVSDS.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: HELP!!

On Fri, 6 May 1994, mc killop wrote:

> 2. Does anyone have any information on the TINY TIM rocket of WWII?

The Tiny Tim rocket entered service late in 1944.  It had a cross-section
of 11.75in (298mm), a length of 10ft 3in (3124mm) and firing weight of
1284lb (582.4kg). The warhead had an explosive charge weighing 68kg. Tiny
Tim was subsonic.

Grumman F7F Tigercats could carry three, and Chance-Vought F4U-1D Corsairs
two (photographs show how the latter carried two under the wing centre
section).  In mid-1944 it was considered to use the F4Us of MAG-51 to
attack V-2 sites in Europe with the 'Tiny Tim' missile.  This plan was
called 'Project Danny'.  But Tiny Tim was not ready in time and the plan
was abandoned. Later the weapon saw limited use in the Pacific.

> over the net.  Several persons said that when they reply, their mail went
> back to the originator and not to the list; someone then suggested a solution

The mail should arrive with both a 'From:' and a 'Reply To:' address in
the header. If your mailer does not offer you the option of using the
latter address, then get another one, or manually edit the address...

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 8 May 1994 16:38:58 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Sir Dr. Archibald McIndoe

Do I have a deal for *you* !
AS of now, rest assured that most of the speade-work has been done for
you.
`The reference that will help your researches enormously is:
        FACES IN THE FIRE: THE BIOGRAPHY OF SIR ARCHIBALD MCINDOE.
        by Leonard Mosely, pub. by Wiedenfield & Nicholson, London, 1962.
Go sicc!
Regards -- Sidney Allinson, Vancouver island, Canada.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 8 May 1994 18:16:39 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: V-E Day

Today marks the 49th anniversary of V-E Day -- Victory in Europe by
the Allies in the Second World War. Today marks the end of Nazi
tyrrany, the worst occupation the Europe ever endured in history.
Yet, this momentous day gets scarcely a mention in North American
media.
Sic transit gloria...

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 7 May 1994 to 8 May 1994
***********************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 8 May 1994 to 9 May 1994
To: Recipients of WWII-L digests <WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Status: O

There are 33 messages totalling 947 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. World War 1 List
  2. INF: USN Chronology 05-09-94
  3. P-61 Black Widow
  4. REF: TIME LIFE BOOKS ON WWII?
  5. German paratroopers dropped sans chutes?
  6. MASONS IN WW-II (2)
  7. The Great Escape
  8. HIST: "Freemasonry" (2)
  9. Recoilless guns (10)
 10. HIST: More on Freemasonry and Nazis
 11. WWI-L
 12. Tiny Tim rocket
 13. SYMPOSIUM:  CALL FOR PEOPLE AND PAPERS
 14. SYMPOSIUM: CALL FOR PEOPLE AND PAPERS
 15. C-SPAN D-Day Show
 16. P-61 radar
 17. recoilless guns and misc. (3)
 18. remove user from list
 19. Order of Battle
 20. Leon Degrelle

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 May 1994 08:41:02 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <smb@NETMGRS.CO.UK>
Subject: World War 1 List

Ladies and Gentlemen!

I understand an "advert" was sent out to MILHIST-L and WWII-L for
WWI-L. There is a slight (but vital) correction to be made.
The name of the list is WWI-L and NOT WWI.

I know several have tried to subscribe to WWI and have had rather
a distressing experience. If you try again and subscribe to WWI-L,
the floodgates of blessing will engulf you....

If anyone continues to experience problems, give me a shout (privately
of course).

best wishes,

Steve Baldwin
smb@netmgrs.co.uk
list co-owner, WWI-L

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 May 1994 01:34:18 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@CCLINK.LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 05-09-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr44.txt

1944
05/09 Tue.  United States naval vessel sunk:
             Submarine chaser PC-558, by submarine torpedo,
              38 d. 41' N., 13 d. 43' E.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 May 1994 07:26:00 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: P-61 Black Widow

Hello, Aldo, Emmanuel and Peter!

Here goes with some more info on the P-61A.

With tests still going on as to what color was best for night
fighters, the first P-61As off the assembly line were delivered in
the standard Army Air Corps camouflage of olive drab uppersurfaces
over neutral gray undersurfaces. Internally, the P-61A had the welded
magnesium alloy tail booms of the XP/YP-61 replaced by booms made of
aluminum. The first production P-61A rolled off the Hawthorne
assembly line during October 1943 fitted with the four-gun dorsal
turret.

With the serious tail buffet problem still unsolved and with a
pressing requirement for the turrets for the B-29 program making them
increasingly difficult to obtain, Northrop decided to delete the
dorsal turret from production P-61As beginning with the 38th
aircraft. Although the turret was not fitted, the aircraft were
completed with all necessary wiring installed so that the turret
could be refitted if they became available later.

Removal of the turret gunner's seat, the turret and the gun-sighting
equipment saved over 1600 pounds giving the P-61A an additional three
miles per hour in speed over the YP-61. Minor changes took place
throughout the P-61A production. Beginning with the 46th production
aircraft, the 2000 hp R-2800-10 engines with the 2250 hp R-2800-65
engines and aircraft with the new engines were designated P-61A-5s.
The P-61A-10 featured engines with water injection to boost power for
short periods in combat. The P-61A-11 was the first Black Widow to
have provision for underwing pylons (capable of carrying 165 gallon
fuel tanks or 1000 lb bombs).

More later or tomorrow.


Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 May 1994 08:45:21 EDT
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <hb9388@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: REF: TIME LIFE BOOKS ON WWII?

>Some time ago(circa 1976?) Time Life published a multivolume set
>of books ( 9.5" by 11.5" ) on the 2nd World War. Lavish illustrations,
>short articles, et cetera. Titles like "Battle of Britain" "Prelude to
>War", "The Rising Sun", "Home Front U.S.A." and so forth.
>
>     Can anybody please give me a list of all the titles and/or tell me how
>many volumes there were?
>
>
>     Thanks,
>
>          Rob George
>

Rob,

I got all of these way back when.  There are 39 titles, in order:

Prelude to War
Blitzkrieg
The Battle of Britain
The Rising Sun
The Battle of the Atlantic
The War in the Desert
Russia Besieged
The Home Front:  USA
China-Burma-India
Island Fighting
The Italian Campaign
Partisans and Guerrillas
The Second Front
Liberation
Return to the Phillipines
The Air War in Europe
The Resistance
The Battle of the Bulge
The Road to Tokyo
Red Army Resurgent
The Nazis
Across the Rhine
War Under the Pacific
War in the Outposts
The Soviet Juggernaut
Japan at War
The Mediterranean
Battles for Scandinavia
The Secret War
Prisoners of War
The Commandos
The Home Front:  Germany
Italy at War
Bombers Over Japan
The Neutrals
Victory in Europe
The Fall of Japan
The Aftermath:  Europe
The Aftermath:  Asia


Hope this helps,

Barry

Barrett F. Lowe               RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, West Point  (e-mail:  hb9388%usma6@trotter.usma.edu)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 May 1994 08:47:51 EDT
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <hb9388@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: German paratroopers dropped sans chutes?

>     A Question.....
>
>Somewhere I read that the Germans dropped paratroopers into the snow out
>of lowflying aircraft on the Russian front sans parachutes.   Is this true?
>

I rechecked all of my sources, and couldn't find this. I do know I saw it
somewhere.

In David Glantz's special study (published by the COmbat Studies Institute
at Ft. Leavenworth), mentioned the Soviets doing an air landing operation
in the snow where the aircraft didn't have skiis so once they went in they were
stuck, but nothing about jumping without parachutes in the snow.

Sorry,

Barry

Barrett F. Lowe               RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, West Point  (e-mail:  hb9388%usma6@trotter.usma.edu)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 May 1994 08:50:38 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <sep@TVSS2.COMMNET.EDU>
Subject: MASONS IN WW-II

Does anyone have any knowledge on how freemasons were treated on both
sides during the war?

I undertstand there were many who fought on both sides with distinction.

I also heard a rumor that Hitler was a mason. Any confirmation/denials?

Thanx                                                           Steve


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - sep@trctc.commnet.edu |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 May 1994 09:04:23 -0400
From:    William Newbold Ely III <wely@GLUE.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Great Escape

On Sun, 1 May 1994, Sidney Allinson wrote:

> BILL ELY..
>         For solid information about the tunneling at Stalag Luft III,
> see THE GREAT ESCAPE, by Paul Brickhill. Very authentic. Published
> soon after the actual events, with first-hand accounts of the RAF/RCAF
> participants. I knew Wally Floody (he died a few years ago), who had
> been a hard-rock miner in Northern Ontario before he joined the RCAF.
> Wally planned the Stalag Luft III tunnel, and helped excavate it. He
> later was the technical advisor on the movie version. (You should have
> heard his language whenever mention was made of that fictional Steve
> McQueen USAAF character in he movie!  :-)  )  Anyway, Wally Floody
> spoke highly of the Brickhill book, especially for the way it captured
> the actual atmosphere in the Stalag at the time.
> Regards.
>
        Hi! Thanks for your reply!  Also to others who have replied,
especially Dr. Moore!  I will reply to each of them at my earliest
convenience.
        Yes, I do have all the books mentioned, as such as Brickhill's
The Great Escape (1950) and Durand's Stalag Luft III.  It looks like that
I was not clear enough on what I am looking for.  I need information or
maps that pinpoint the location of the three tunnels before I go to Sagan
(now Zagan, Poland about 3 hours east of Berlin) again.  Each of the two
times I went there, I could not locate the tunnels' openings although
they have been sealed. Perhaps the surviving Stalag Luft III'ers may help
with this.  I asked everyone there but no one knew where the tunnels were.
        I also visited the Sagan train station where many of the 76 camp
escapees boarded trains.  In 1987 (under Communist rule), no photos were
allowed there.  Later in 1992, the "no photos" sign was found to be removed.
I do have the local map of Polish Zagan (German Sagan) but it but it does
not mention or pinpoint the exact location of the three tunnels.
        Back to the point, I need to have the right information before
returning to Sagan and touching exactly where the openings of the 3
tunnels were. Help me out?  Thanks to all who reply!

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 May 1994 09:18:34 -0400
From:    Warren Thompson <THOMPSON@ACAD.LVC.EDU>
Subject: HIST: "Freemasonry"

The Nazis officially banned Freemasonry, in part because they thought it had
Jewish origins. Hitler likely was never a member, though he had connections
to other "secret" organizations.

-- Warren Thompson

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 May 1994 14:30:13 GMT
From:    Johannes van Vuren <VANVUREN_J@SND02.PCR.CO.UK>
Subject: Recoilless guns

Some expert please explain the principle behind the recoilless gun. Why were
these guns developed and to what extent were they used in ww2. I was always
puzzled by how the rearward momentum is dissipated so as to make the gun
truely recoilless.
Many thanks,
Johannes van Vuren.
Canterbury, England.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 May 1994 10:00:35 -0400
From:    Warren Thompson <THOMPSON@ACAD.LVC.EDU>
Subject: HIST: More on Freemasonry and Nazis

In Oct 1934, Adolf Eichmann went to work in the main office of the
Sicherheitsdienst in Berlin. His first assignment there was in the
Amt or Abteilung that dealt with Freemasons.

-- Warren Thompson

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 May 1994 10:13:59 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: Recoilless guns

>
> Some expert please explain the principle behind the recoilless gun. Why were
> these guns developed and to what extent were they used in ww2. I was always
> puzzled by how the rearward momentum is dissipated so as to make the gun
> truely recoilless.

They were developed precisely because there were applications where a
conventional closed breach cannon couldn't be effectively used.

Davis guns were mounted on flying boats during WWII.  A 1" gun on a flex mount
would likely demolish a Martin in flight!  The Davis gun was a way to get an
effective and reasonably accurate weapon on board which could be used against
surfaced submarines.

Another example is Jeep mounted guns.  You aren't going to fire a conventional
106mm gun from a Jeep.

The drawback is of course SERIOUS backblast plus lower velocity.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 May 1994 15:18:37 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <smb@NETMGRS.CO.UK>
Subject: WWI-L

FYI
to subscribe to WWI-L
please email listserv@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu
leave the subject line blank
and type the following message

SUBSCRIBE WWI-L your name

eg

SUBSCRIBE WWI-L Stephen Mark Baldwin


that's it.

Steve Baldwin
list co-owner
smb@netmgrs.co.uk

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 May 1994 16:04:06 GMT
From:    Johannes van Vuren <VANVUREN_J@SND02.PCR.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Recoilless guns

Thanks Cristopher, for that reply. But please explain how these guns
actually work. I can imagine that various holes are needed in the rear part
of the barrel etc. Probably very simple once one gets the hang of it.

Johannes van Vuren


<They were developed precisely because there were applications where a
<conventional closed breach cannon couldn't be effectively used.

<Davis guns were mounted on flying boats during WWII.  A 1" gun on a flex mount
<would likely demolish a Martin in flight!  The Davis gun was a way to get an
<effective and reasonably accurate weapon on board which could be used against
<surfaced submarines.

<Another example is Jeep mounted guns.  You aren't going to fire a conventional
<106mm gun from a Jeep.

<The drawback is of course SERIOUS backblast plus lower velocity.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 May 1994 11:10:14 -0400
From:    "John E. Kollar" <KILLAR@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU>
Subject: Re: Recoilless guns

When a projectile is fired, a force acts on the shell to send it spirally
of to its doom (or someone elses), because of the law of equal yet
opposite reactions, an equal force is expended against the place from
where the shell was fired from, which is normally the chamber of a gun,
and thus is shown in recoil from the weapon.  With a recoilless gun, the
chamber does not have a rear end, instead there is a solid chunk of
material, call it the anti-projectile, which is seated in it's own short
'barrel', so that the force that acts against the projectile to shoot it
acts against the anti-projectile to send it out the other end of the
rifle.  Because the recoil force is used to move the anti-projectile
it is not expended against the weapon, and thus causes no recoil.

Same principle applies why rocket and missile launchers have no recoil.


John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 May 1994 16:50:31 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <smb@NETMGRS.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Recoilless guns

John E. Kollar writes
>       When a projectile is fired, a force acts on the shell to send it spirally
>       of to its doom (or someone elses), because of the law of equal yet
>       opposite reactions, an equal force is expended against the place from
>       where the shell was fired from, which is normally the chamber of a gun,
>       and thus is shown in recoil from the weapon.  With a recoilless gun, the
>       chamber does not have a rear end, instead there is a solid chunk of
>       material, call it the anti-projectile, which is seated in it's own short
>       'barrel', so that the force that acts against the projectile to shoot it
>       acts against the anti-projectile to send it out the other end of the
>       rifle.  Because the recoil force is used to move the anti-projectile
>       it is not expended against the weapon, and thus causes no recoil.
>
Hi John!
Thanks for an informative post. A good explanation for the "non techies"
amongst us. The anti-recoil must itself move in it's barrel yes?
This must surely reduce the efficiency of the forward thrust of the
shell?? What sort of efficiency loss ratio would we be talking about?
(if that's how it is measured)?

Steve Baldwin
smb@netmgrs.co.uk

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 May 1994 12:19:30 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: Recoilless guns

>
> When a projectile is fired, a force acts on the shell to send it spirally
> of to its doom (or someone elses), because of the law of equal yet
> opposite reactions, an equal force is expended against the place from
> where the shell was fired from, which is normally the chamber of a gun,
> and thus is shown in recoil from the weapon.  With a recoilless gun, the
> chamber does not have a rear end, instead there is a solid chunk of
> material, call it the anti-projectile, which is seated in it's own short
> 'barrel', so that the force that acts against the projectile to shoot it
> acts against the anti-projectile to send it out the other end of the
> rifle.  Because the recoil force is used to move the anti-projectile
> it is not expended against the weapon, and thus causes no recoil.

That is ONE method of recoilless operation, used in the current Armbrust,
WWI Davis gun and pre-war German aviation experiments.

In actual practice, a SOLID counter mass is usually NOT used as it would
present nearly as much danger as the projectile.  What is USUALLY used is
a mass of material which disentegrates or disperses quickly, so as to
lessen the danger to friendly troops and equipment.  The Armbrust uses
shards of plastic.  The Davis gun used lead shot packed in grease.

One of the German large aircraft mounted guns used a very heavy steel cartridge
case.  I believe that that was the system which when test, blew the tail off
of the aircraft on which it was mounted.

Most common systems use blowout panels in the cartridge case which divert a
portion of the propellant gases rearward.  U.S. systems usually use panels
in the walls of the case.   I believe the German and British systems used a
blowout section in the base.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 May 1994 10:12:50 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: HIST: "Freemasonry"

Hitler did ban Freemasonry in his Germany, as you say.
However, his main reason was because of Freemasonry's high ideals,
its international collectiveness, and standards of good behaviour.
There was story extant in Masonic circles, that the Hamburg Lodge of
Masons arranged to save its historic memorabilia by somehow getting
it to the Main Lodge of the Scottish Rite (FM) in Edinburgh, Scotland.
Rumor had it that this was contrived by dropping the memorabilia and
records by parachute from a Luftwaffe aircraft in 1940, with a message
to the effect, "Please hold these for us in safe-keeping until after
the war is over".  However, that sounds so hazardous for the health of
any german airman involved, as to be questionable. Still, the story
stands that the Hamburg Lodge's records etc. were 'somehow' sent and
held by the Edinburgh Lodge until after the war, when they were returned
for re-opening of German Freemason's lodges.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 May 1994 10:16:12 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: MASONS IN WW-II

AH definitely was not a Freemason.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 May 1994 13:11:16 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: Recoilless guns

>
> Thanks Cristopher, for that reply. But please explain how these guns
> actually work. I can imagine that various holes are needed in the rear part
> of the barrel etc. Probably very simple once one gets the hang of it.

There are two basic versions.

The British and German guns used large nozzles to direct the backblast.

The U.S. and Soviet guns used much smaller and less obtrusive venting.

The base or side panels blow out of the cartridge, and the gas and debris
are vented rearward like a rocket thrust, neutralizing recoil.

>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 May 1994 10:22:15 -0400
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: Tiny Tim rocket

Adding to Emmanuel Gustin's reply regarding the Tiny Tim rocket...

This information was taken from the book "Marine Mitchells in WWII"
by Jerry Scutts (1993, Phalanx Publishing, ISBN 0-9625860-9-9).

The Tiny Tim was used operationally by Marine squadron VMB-612,
who flew PBJ-1Js (Marine designation for the B-25J).  Their aircraft
were rigged with locally produced external mounts to carry two of
the rockets underneath the fuselage, directly under the bomb bay.

On 30 May 1945, the squadron received TDY movement orders for
Okinawa (from Iwo) to initiate the Tiny Tim in combat.  Six PBJs
had been modified for Tiny Tim operation by June, and calibration
and test firings commenced.  Training flights with live Tim firings
on a rock situated at the NE end of Iwo had exhausted all stocks
by 16 July.  The firings of these 27 Tims indicated that the
previously determined launch range of 1000 yards at 500 feet altitude
were optimistic, as aircraft were being hit by debris.  The launch
range was modified to 1350 yards at 700 feet.  Trials indicated that
carrying the two rockets imposed a 10 knot penalty on the Mitchell.

The first Tiny Tim mission was conducted on the night of 21/22 July,
but no suitable targets were found.  Tiny Tim missions began in
earnest on 11 August (after Nagasaki).  About ten such missions were
flown before the end of the war.  Hostilities ceased on 15 August,
and after four days of stand-down, the Tiny Tim program continued.
Nine more Tiny Tims were expended to compile range tables and
confirm rocket trajectories for future training use.  The other
Marine PBJ squadrons were decommisioned in November 1945, leaving
VMB-612 as the last PBJ squadron.  After returning to the US, the
squadron was decommissioned on 14 March 1946 at USMC Auxiliary Air
Station Oak Grove in North Carolina.

Dennis E. Sparks
sparks@caer.uky.edu
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 May 1994 13:24:19 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: Recoilless guns

> Hi John!
> Thanks for an informative post. A good explanation for the "non techies"
> amongst us. The anti-recoil must itself move in it's barrel yes?
> This must surely reduce the efficiency of the forward thrust of the
> shell?? What sort of efficiency loss ratio would we be talking about?
> (if that's how it is measured)?

To give you an idea, I'm unaware of ANY recoilless weapon which relies upon
kinetic energy for a kill.  Almost all of the use HEAT or HESH(HEP) warheads
for target effect on armored targets.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 May 1994 13:58:37 -0400
From:    "Mr. Scott Hannon" <hannon@UMBC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Recoilless guns

> ... please explain the principle behind the recoilless gun. ...
> I was always puzzled by how the rearward momentum is dissipated so as
> to make the gun truely recoilless.

Momentum is a vector; ie it has magnitude and direction. Thus to make
a recoilless gun, you must balence the forward and rearward momuntums.

One way to do thus is to use two projectiles in the barrel with the
expanding gas between them...one projectile comes out the front and the
other comes out the rear. Obviously this technique isn't too popular.

Another way to do it is to use one projectile, but balances forward
momentum by redirecting most of the propellnmg gas out the rear.
Sort of like:

        -----------------------------\
                 exhust               \
        -----------------------------\ \-----------------
        | breech                    vents             muzzle
        -----------------------------/ /-----------------
                 exhust               /
        -----------------------------/

When the cartridge is fired, the gas expands and starts propelling
the projectile forward (pushed by the expanding gas, also going forwards).
Due to inertia, the reward travel of the gun is minimal at this time.
After some brief period of time, the projectile has achieved much of
its final velocity and travels down the barrel past the vents. At that
time, most/much of the expanding gas now enters the vents and reverses
direction, heading toward the rear. This basically provides a rocket-like
forward thrust which acts to counter the rearward recoil imparted during
the initial portion of the firing. By careful consideration of projectile
and gas mass and velocity, it is possible to acheive a balance (ie
recoilless).

This type of weapon is of limited popularity due to the huge back-blast
and limited projectile velocity. However, due to the lack of much recoil
they do not need heavy mechanical recoil mechanisms and thus the guns
can be installed on lighter mounts. They are thus frequently used by
"light" troops....they were poplar in Vietnam with the NVA for providing
direct fire support.

Scott.
Scott Hannon, Mon May 9 1994 (hannon@umbc.edu)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 May 1994 10:44:05 -0700
From:    MJL1@NAUVAX.BITNET
Subject: SYMPOSIUM:  CALL FOR PEOPLE AND PAPERS

>sorry for any cross-posts
>
>
>                               CALL FOR PAPERS
>
>"EXPLORING THE CHALLENGES OF CONFLICT:  ISSUES AND ALTERNATIVES IN THE 20TH
>CENTURY WORLD"
>
>AN INTERDISCIPLINARY GRADUATE STUDENT/FACULTY SYMPOSIUM
>Northern Arizona University, Flagstaff, AZ
>November 4-5, 1994
>
>The theme of the fourth annual NAU Graduate Student Interdisciplinary
>Symposium (GSIS) is CONFLICT IN THE 20TH CENTURY. GSIS organizers invite
>graduate students, faculty, and non-academics to attend and to submit
>abstracts of papers you would like to present at this year's symposium.
>
>possible topic areas include, but are not limited to:
>
>Conflict and Community in Urban Areas
>Violence and Non-violence as Means of Social Change
>Power Relations:  Social, Economic, and/or Political
>Environmental Conflict, Problems, and Alternatives
>"Legitimate" Violence:  Language, Institutions, and/or War
>Gender Conflicts, Issues, and Alternatives
>Technologies for Violent and Non-violent Uses
>Crime and Societies Response to Crime
>Racial and Ethnic Identities and Conflict
>International Conflict: Military, Economic, and Otherwise
>Conflict as Witnessed in Art, Music, or Literature
>
>THE DEADLINE FOR ABSTRACTS IS AUGUST 1, 1994
>
>
>Please send abstracts (250 words plus title) and requests for additional
>information on the symposium to:
>
>     Matt Lindstrom, Co-Chair, GSIS
>     Department of Political Science, NAU Box 15036
>     Flagstaff, AZ 86011
>     (602)  779-5695
>     Email:  MJL1@NAUVAX.UCC.NAU.ECU
>
>THANKS, MATT

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 May 1994 10:09:13 -0700
From:    MJL1@NAUVAX.BITNET
Subject: SYMPOSIUM: CALL FOR PEOPLE AND PAPERS

>sorry for any cross-posts
>
>
>                               CALL FOR PAPERS
>
>"EXPLORING THE CHALLENGES OF CONFLICT:  ISSUES AND ALTERNATIVES IN THE 20TH
>CENTURY WORLD"
>
>AN INTERDISCIPLINARY GRADUATE STUDENT/FACULTY SYMPOSIUM
>Northern Arizona University, Flagstaff, AZ
>November 4-5, 1994
>
>The theme of the fourth annual NAU Graduate Student Interdisciplinary
>Symposium (GSIS) is CONFLICT IN THE 20TH CENTURY. GSIS organizers invite
>graduate students and faculty to attend and to submit abstracts of papers you
>would like to present at this year's symposium.
>
>possible topic areas include, but are not limited to:
>
>Conflict and Community in Urban Areas
>Violence and Non-violence as Means of Social Change
>Power Relations:  Social, Economic, and/or Political
>Environmental Conflict, Problems, and Alternatives
>"Legitimate" Violence:  Language, Institutions, and/or War
>Gender Conflicts, Issues, and Alternatives
>Technologies for Violent and Non-violent Uses
>Crime and Societies Response to Crime
>Racial and Ethnic Identities and Conflict
>International Conflict: Military, Economic, and Otherwise
>Conflict as Witnessed in Art, Music, or Literature
>
>THE DEADLINE FOR ABSTRACTS IS AUGUST 1, 1994
>
>
>Please send abstracts (250 words plus title) and requests for additional
>information on the symposium to:
>
>     Matt Lindstrom, Co-Chair, GSIS
>     Department of Political Science, NAU Box 15036
>     Flagstaff, AZ 86011
>     (602)  779-5695
>     Email:  MJL1@NAUVAX.UCC.NAU.ECU
>
>THANKS, MATT

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 May 1994 15:05:24 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: C-SPAN D-Day Show

Hello, Jack!


> For those of you in the US and Canada, a show entitled REMEMBERING D-DAY
> will be shown on C-SPAN on Saturday and Sunday, May 7 and 8, at 1:00 PM
> EDT.  I have not seen it so have no idea of what it is about.

    I saw it all. It was great and I recorded much of it. Thanks for
the tip.

    Terry



Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 May 1994 15:06:16 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: P-61 radar

Hello, Jack!

I will be posting some info on that radar unit installed on the P-61
that resulted in its nose being extended 8 inches.

More later.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 May 1994 15:48:14 CDT
From:    Robert Hohlt <rhohlt@MGMSERV1.MGM.SAIC.COM>
Subject: recoilless guns and misc.

1. It sounds as if the recoilless rifles and cannons could have
found a good home on the Navy dirigibles used for ASW duty along
the coasts.  Certainly if any craft would have been susceptible to the
recoil of regular weapons it would have been the lightly constructed
Navy blimps. Opinions?

Also, anyone know how much airspeed was lost everytime a B-25
(special construction) fired its nose mounted 75mm cannon in flight?


2. In the WW2 era, the Navy used to have dedicated antiaircraft ships,
i.e., the Atlanta class and the Oakland class cruisers.  In the modern
day navy, are the antiaircraft weapons so good (computer guided chain
driven rapid fire guns and surface to air missiles) that there is no
need for an antiaircraft ship?  Hypothetical: Given 2 modern CV task
forces launching air/missile strikes against each other.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 May 1994 15:16:11 CDT
From:    "Shirley N. Daniels" <sndaniel@SAVANNA-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: remove user from list

Please remove my name from subscriber list

                          Shirley N. Daniels

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 May 1994 15:30:15 +0200
From:    YARBROUGH James L <yarbrough_james_l@OSLMAC.OSL.OR.GOV>
Subject: Order of Battle

Does anybody outthere have an order of battle for the US and Soviet
forces at the end of WWII?

Yarbrough James L@oslmac.osl.or.gov
________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 10 May 1994 00:45:11 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVSDS.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: Recoilless guns

On Mon, 9 May 1994, Stephen Baldwin wrote:

> Thanks for an informative post. A good explanation for the "non techies"
> amongst us. The anti-recoil must itself move in it's barrel yes?
> This must surely reduce the efficiency of the forward thrust of the
> shell?? What sort of efficiency loss ratio would we be talking about?
> (if that's how it is measured)?

If we limit ourselves to basic physics, leaving aside pratical
considerations as drag, friction, barrel rifling, limited length of
barrels, gas leaks and others, the energy transfer is determined by the
law of conservation momentum: ms * vs + mr * vr = 0, and the law of
conservation of energy:  1/2 ms vs^2 + 1/2 mr vr^2 = E. The speed of the
shell is can then be written as :

                   E(explosion)
  vs = sqrt(   --------------------  )
                1              ms
                - * ms * ( 1 + -- )
                2              mr

where E is the energy supplied by the explosion, ms the mass of the shell,
and mr the mass of the recoil weight. So you see that the heavier the mass
that absorbs the recoil, the better the efficiency --- normals guns have
always an advantage, because then the entire aircraft absorbs the recoil.
If you expell backwards a weight equal to that of the shell, the speed of
the shell will be 30% lower; if the recoil weight is half of that of the
shell, the loss is 42%, and so on. To reduce your losses to 10%, you have
to use a weight 4.25 times as heavy as the shell...

Of course, if you are considering recoilless guns, then these are big
guns, with heavy shells... And you don't really want to double the weight
of your ammunition supply.  An alternative is to expell the hot gases
backwards, instead of a special recoil weight; then you are reducing,
rather than eliminating, the recoil. But the more you reduce the recoil,
the worse your efficiency.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 May 1994 16:01:24 +0200
From:    YARBROUGH James L <yarbrough_james_l@OSLMAC.OSL.OR.GOV>
Subject: Re: recoilless guns and misc.

1.  The back-blast just might have poked holes in the blimp.
1a.  Not exactly, but a friend of mine told me he thought the plane was
hit and going to crash the first time the pilot fired.  (He was a
turret-gunner.)
2.  The Aegis-class ships are dedicated ack-ack (so to speak) ships.
At least that's according to the Navywho uses that excuse for building
more.
2h.  Take the US forces in any modern Carrier duel.  9 out of 10 at
least.  Who else has a carrier worth a hoot anyway???
________________________________________________________
1. It sounds as if the recoilless rifles and cannons could have
found a good home on the Navy dirigibles used for ASW duty along
the coasts.  Certainly if any craft would have been susceptible to the
recoil of regular weapons it would have been the lightly constructed
Navy blimps. Opinions?

Also, anyone know how much airspeed was lost everytime a B-25
(special construction) fired its nose mounted 75mm cannon in flight?


2. In the WW2 era, the Navy used to have dedicated antiaircraft ships,
i.e., the Atlanta class and the Oakland class cruisers.  In the modern
day navy, are the antiaircraft weapons so good (computer guided chain
driven rapid fire guns and surface to air missiles) that there is no
need for an antiaircraft ship?  Hypothetical: Given 2 modern CV task
forces launching air/missile strikes against each other.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 May 1994 19:38:50 -0700
From:    "Office TH325, Extension 3566" <RIEGSECKER@UPS.EDU>
Subject: Leon Degrelle

I have just finished reading John Toland's "The Last 100 Days".  He
talks about a man named Leon Degrelle who was the leader of the Rexist
party in Belgium and volunteered for the SS.  At the end of the war he
escaped to Norway where he had a meeting with Quisling.  Following
Toland's account, a pilot wearing a high Gernan decoration picked him up
and flew him to Spanmin where they crashed for lack of fuel.

1.  Who was Degrelle that he was given such preferential treatment?

2.  What happened to him?

My apologies if this has been discussed before, but I don't recall
seeing it on the list before.

John Riegsecker
Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
University of Puget Sound

riegsecker@ups.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 May 1994 23:20:53 -0400
From:    "Mark A. Campbell" <marka@WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: recoilless guns and misc.

In response to the 2nd part of your message:

The problem of sea-skimming anti-ship missile attack against modern warships
is considered to remain the most serious problem facing surface warships
today.  While slow-speed missiles like Exocet and Harpoon remain difficult
to counter even by such modern anti-missile systems like the British
"Seawolf" anti-missile missile, European "Goalkeeper" 30mm gatling gun,
and U.S. "Phalanx" 20mm system, current and future high-speed missiles
(mach 2+) promise to be nearly impossible to intercept.  The problem with
previous and current generations of Russian (ex-Soviet) anti-ship missiles
is less acute, because they fly at altitudes sufficient for AEGIS to
destroy them.  In fact, multiple reports suggest that the USSR was so
scared of AEGIS that it prompted them to develop their notorious (and
apparently quite effective) type 65 "wake-following" torpedoes largely
to get "under" the AEGIS air defense umbrella.
   So, yes, there is still a need for air defense ships; one, could, I
suppose, see the current generation of USN cruisers and destroyers
("Ticonderoga" and "Arleigh Burke") AEGIS ships as the equivalent of the
WW2 class AA cruisers of the Atlanta and Juneau classes, but I think that
any such parallel breaks down due to the different technologies involved.
                             Cordially,
                              Mark.

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 8 May 1994 to 9 May 1994
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 9 messages totalling 932 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. INF: USN Chronology 05-10-94
  2. D-DAY PART II
  3. D-DAY PART I
  4. INF: USAAF 9-10 MAY 44
  5. Recoilless guns
  6. Leon Degrelle
  7. MEDIA: Silent Service
  8. Fate of Leon Degrelle (2)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 10 May 1994 01:16:04 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@CCLINK.LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 05-10-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
05/10 Wed. United States Naval Base, Eniwetok, Marshall Islands,
           is established.
            Japanese naval vessel sunk:
             Old destroyer KARUKAYA, by submarine COD (SS-224),
              Philippine Islands area,
              15 d. 38' N., 119 d. 25' E.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 10 May 1994 07:51:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: D-DAY PART II

This is Pat II of the USAF's D-Day series published by the Air
Force New Agency.


Part II
060.  D-Day celebrations
061.  Schweinfurt-Regensburg raids
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
060.  D-Day celebrations
by TSgt. David P. Masko
     No military group in the United States has been as relentless or
successful as D-Day veterans in enhancing a positive reputation
about their encounters during World War II.
     The veterans' focus is on the all-important invasion of
Normandy, on June 6, 1944, forever remembered as "D-Day."
     The invasion featured one of the largest air forces ever
assembled under one command.  It included 250,000 people and
3,500 planes in 1,500 units consisting of fighters, bombers, troop
carriers, air defense, engineers and service commands.
     The key anniversary ceremonies range from parades to a re-
enactment of a mass parachute drop by 70- and 80-year-old vets,
to GIs getting another chance to wade ashore on Utah Beach, at
dawn, on D-Day.
     While it is expected that tens of thousands of vets will travel to
England and France for the 50th, no organization is making a
bigger splash than the Ninth Air Force Association.
     On May 29, more than 300 Ninth AFA vets and families will sail
from New York to England on the superliner Queen Elizabeth 2.
     "This must be some sort of a military landmark, because many
of us sailed to England in 1943 aboard the original Queen
Elizabeth," said Edward MacLean, president of the Ninth AFA.
     MacLean, a D-Day P-47 pilot, said that after the five-day
crossing, the ship will dock at Southampton -- a focal point in
south England for the massive buildup of men and materials prior
to the invasion.
     The Air Force veterans will tour a well-preserved Allied
command headquarters, including the building where General
Dwight D. Eisenhower agonized the decision whether to go
forward with the invasion on June 6, 1944.
     Numerous ceremonies also are scheduled for England, where
Overlord was planned and launched.  In addition, vintage Air
Force aircraft, as well as modern aircraft, will stage fly-bys over
the English countryside.
     On June 5, the royal Yacht Britannia -- with Queen Elizabeth
on board -- will lead the QE-2 and hundreds of other ships across
the English Channel to Normandy.
     After ceremonies at an air base near Cherbourg, some vets will
visit Ste. Mere Eglise, the first French town liberated by the U.S.
paratroopers.  Later in the day, Air Force leaders will host a
Franco-American Ball aboard the QE-2.
     On June 6, the vets will participate in memorial ceremonies at
the U.S. cemetery at Colleville-sur-Mer honoring the 9,386
soldiers buried there with the remains of 1,000 unidentified men
who also fell in battle.
     After D-Day, Ninth AFA officials said vets will visit other areas
in France on what will probably be their last look at the geography
they liberated 50 years ago.  (Masko is assigned to Air Force
News Service in the Pentagon)
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
061.  Schweinfurt-Regensburg raids
     Little more than half a century ago, the United States Eighth Air
Force conducted its largest daylight bombing raid over Germany
to that time.  The historian of the 91st Bombardment Group wrote,
"The target required a deeper penetration and more time over
enemy territory than any mission yet assigned to the entire Eighth Air
Force."
     Committed to precision bombing, American military leaders
had sought a vital target, a vulnerable spot in the Nazi war
machine.  As part of Operation Pointblank, an attempt to break the
power of the Luftwaffe (German air force), the U.S. Army Air
Forces planned virtually simultaneous raids on the German ball-
bearing industry at Schweinfurt and the Messerschmitt aircraft
complex at Regensburg.
     On the morning of Aug. 17, 1943, 376 B-17 Flying Fortresses
departed the United Kingdom for the two-pronged raid deep into
Germany.  P-47 Thunderbolt and Royal Air Force Spitfire fighters
escorted these bombers across the English Channel.  Unfortunately,
soon after crossing the Channel, the fighters reached their range
and returned to their bases, leaving the bombers to continue
unescorted.  Prior to reaching the target area, German Bf 109s and
Fw 190s continually attacked the Flying Fortresses.
     At Regensburg, the Eighth Air Force bombers dropped 300 tons of
bombs, severely damaging the Messerschmitt works while destroying
numerous new fighters.  Bombing was less accurate at Schweinfurt,
but the B-17s did make 80 bomb hits on the ball-bearing factories.
Unfortunately, the raids cost the Eighth Air Force 60 bombers, 16
percent of those launched.  Approximately 85 percent of the losses
were to enemy fighters.
     Almost two months later, on Oct. 14, 1943, the Eighth Air Force
again staged a raid on Schweinfurt, dropping 483 tons of bombs
and extensively damaging the German ball-bearing industry.  But,
the Eighth lost 60 additional Flying Fortresses, just under 20 percent
of its force.  Well over half of the losses were to German fighters.
     The Regensburg and Schweinfurt raids produced valuable
lessons that the U.S. Army Air Forces successfully applied to the
strategic bombing campaign.  The high losses convinced the
leaders of the Army Air Forces to end unescorted daylight
bombing raids into Germany as a general practice.  To provide the
needed escorts, the Army Air Forces developed external gasoline
tanks which could be released as soon as the fuel was consumed.
These extended the range of P-51 escorts, allowing them to
accompany bombers all the way to their targets.  Protected by
escorts, American bombers probed deep into Germany, forcing
the dispersal of German factories.  This dispersal caused a
temporary but serious decline in German industrial production.
     More importantly, strategic bombing paralyzed German
transportation and seriously attrited the growing number of
fighters assigned to air defense, contributing to the collapse of the
German war machine.  (Courtesy Air Force Historical Research
Agency, Maxwell AFB, Ala.)
--

      // \\
    //     \\                    Air Force News Agency
   |         |              Kelly Air Force Base, Texas, USA
   \  CMSgt  /      ___________________ /____________________________________
   \  Mike   /
   \ Bergman /
     \     /

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 10 May 1994 07:45:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: D-DAY PART I

The following, Part I of the USAF's D-Day series, was published by
the Air Force News Agency.



Part I
057.  D-Day's airpower:  On the wings of history
058.  D-Day reflections
059.  Twenty-five missions to glory
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
057.  D-Day's airpower:  On the wings of history
by TSgt. David P. Masko
"The Allies owe the success of the (Normandy) invasion to the air
forces.  They prepared the invasion; they made it possible; they
carried it through.  Without the U.S. Air Force, the war would still
be going on elsewhere, but certainly not on German soil."  -- Reich
Marshal Hermann Goering following his surrender in May 1945.
     Air Force B-17 and B-24 bombers "hammered" German
communication targets prior to Operation Overlord, said Lieutenant
General Carl Spaatz in his assessment of the June 6, 1944, Normandy
Invasion.
     "This hammering has been a continuous process, the tempo of
which has risen to a peak during the month previous to D-Day,"
said Spaatz, who served as commanding general for U.S. Strategic
Forces on D-Day.
     In the month prior to the invasion of Normandy, say Air Force
historians, the Eighth and Ninth Air Forces and the Royal Air Force
flew 33,000 sorties and destroyed more than 1,000 German aircraft.
     Historians point to the B-24 Liberator and the B-17 Flying
Fortress as the spearhead of the Army Air Forces in its raids over
Europe from 1942 onward.  They also said "airpower" gave the
Allies the momentum to win the battle.
     "Perhaps the most important phase of these operations on and
after D-Day was the destruction of the bridges across the Seine and
Loire, the Ninth taking care of the Seine and the Eighth taking care
of the Loire," Spaatz said.
     "These attacks on the communications system harassed the
enemy to the extent the whole system was pretty well confused."
     Unfortunately, Lieutenant General Jimmy Doolittle's death last
year prevented yet another Air Force pioneer from seeing the "friendly
invasion" that's planned for D-Day's 50th.  It was the Eighth Air
Force commanded by Doolittle who helped lead the bombers into
Normandy.
     Historical records show that Eighth Air Force B-17s and B-24s
bombed German defenses behind the beaches where U.S. and
British forces would land.
     Half a century ago, 3.4 million troops assembled to attack the
coast of Normandy.  About a million and a half were Americans.
On June 6, 1944, the opening shots of "Overlord" were fired,
launching Europe's liberation from Nazi-occupation and the
beginning of the end of World War II.
     But even before the waves of GIs first waded ashore on Utah
and Omaha beachs at dawn on D-Day, historians say the Air Force
was there.
     To remember and pay tribute to these airmen, a new air war
museum is being built at Ecausseville, France, in the drop zone
behind Utah Beach.  The museum will be located in a renovated
aircraft hangar.
     As one part of the 50th anniversary commemoration, the Ninth Air
Force Association will lay a symbolic cornerstone at the old hangar.
     Ninth Air Force officials believe the countdown to this
ceremony and other 50th anniversary events hold a special
anticipation, a special poignancy, because the Air Force was at the
center of the D-Day forces.
     Writing in his 1948 memoirs "Crusade in Europe," General Dwight
D. Eisenhower said, "Our only effective counteraction, during
preparatory months of 1944, was by bombing."
     "We sent intermittent raids against every spot in Europe where
the scientists believed that the Germans were attempting either to
manufacture new types of weapons or where they were building
launching facilities along the coast."
     Eisenhower, who served as D-Day's supreme allied commander,
said the air assault would also be a vital part of Overlord.
     An Army Air Forces intelligence report, located in the archives
of the Smithsonian's Air and Space Museum, states that airpower
on D-Day was "a sky black with an umbrella of Allied aircraft."
The report shows a B-17 returning to England for another bomb
load as it passes over the invasion beaches of Normandy.
     On D-Day, more than 13,000 Allied aircraft of all types would
take part in Overlord.
     In addition, nine squadrons of fighters were to cover the assault
beaches throughout the day.  The squadrons included three
American P-47s and six Royal Air Force "Spitfires," while four
more squadrons of U.S. P-38s patrolled the English Channel
protecting shipping convoys.  Other Army Air Forces squadrons
escorted the massive airlift of Troop Carrier Command and the
U.S. glider force.
     As D-Day worn on, it was clear that Allied airpower had
"virtual control of the skies," having beaten the German Luftwaffe
both in the air and on the ground with endless streams of bomber
and fighter aircraft, historians said.
     They explained how the main German fighter activity on D-Day
was concentrated against landing operations.
     "There was no immediate fighter reaction on 6 June, when
provisional estimates amounted to only about 70 sorties against the
Allied beach heads.  There are strong indications that after four
days of fairly intensive single-engine fighter operations and night
and day bombing, enemy strength was considerably reduced."
     On the Allied side of the story, Eisenhower said the first
critical objective of the Normandy campaign -- which was to establish
a secure bridgehead with adequate avenues of supply -- was fully
accomplished by the end of June.
     History's greatest military operation was over, but not forgotten
was the devastating effect of airpower.  (Masko is assigned to Air
Force News Service in the Pentagon)
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
058.  D-Day reflections
by SMSgt. Denton Lankford
     "Our rendezvous altitude was 12,500 feet and, as I recall, we
broke into the clear about 10-11,000 feet.  The sky was becoming
light in the east -- but the sun was well below the horizon.  There
was a full moon directly overhead, which did give some useful
light.  As we orbited at Friston (England), there was mass
confusion.  Flares were used by all lead aircraft -- but it was very
difficult for each aircraft to find the right place in the right
formation."
     So begin the D-Day recollections of former Air Force Vice
Chief of Staff General William V. McBride, who is retired and now
living in San Antonio, Texas.
     Although in his 70s now, McBride, in a recent interview with
AFNS Features, vividly recounted his recollections of events
surrounding the 556th Bombardment Squadron's participation in what
he calls "the greatest battle of the century."
     As a young, inexperienced second lieutenant he joined the
556th at Chipping Ongar, England (Station 162), in early August
1943 as a "replacement" navigator/bombardier.  "As part of the
387th Bombardment Group, the 556th was a combat-experienced
unit that had been very successful largely due to its good
leadership," McBride explained.  He said by the spring of 1944,
most of the crew members had flown 50-plus missions in their B-26
Marauders.
     By May 1944 McBride was serving as squadron navigator of
the 556th, which was daily bombing German logistics centers in
the enemy interior.
     "It was evident D-Day was approaching; our targets began
including many of the marshaling yards and railway centers
connecting the German anti-invasion coastal defenses with the
troop and logistic centers in the enemy interior," McBride said.
     He recalled that by the middle of May, the 54-plane group was
daily bombing highway and railway bridges across the Seine River
from Le Havre to Paris -- and by D-Day, few if any of these were
standing.  "The Marauders, among other Ninth Air Force aircraft, had
effectively isolated Normandy and Brittany from other German
forces by the first of June," he said.
     "We all knew it (D-Day) was coming, we just didn't know
when," McBride said.
     As a lead crew member, two days prior to the invasion he, Major
Glenn Grau, squadron commander, and Lieutenant Carl Cooper, squadron
bombardier, were summoned and briefed that the hour was near
and what the general target area would be -- several coastal gun
batteries at Utah Beach.  He reminisces that, from that moment
until after the mission, lead crews were restricted to the base.
     General McBride said that late on the evening of June 5 it
became apparent that preliminary operations for the invasion had
already begun.  "At dusk," he said, "we could see large formations
of troop carrier aircraft, C-47s, beginning to form in the west -- it
became apparent the night of June 5 was going to be very short.
     "The mood was quiet excitement and silent apprehension with
the crews," he recalls.  "Everyone wanted on this mission, because
this was 'THE' mission."
     Shortly after midnight he was awakened and told to report to
Group Operations at Chipping Ongar.  On his way to the briefing,
he noticed the weather was very poor.
     "All through the night a low ceiling had produced intermittent
rain showers," he said.
     "We were told at the briefing that because of the low ceiling, we
would climb in single trail formation through the clouds and then
form-up on top.  To complicate matters, we would be doing this at
night -- nearly all of our previous missions were daylight
missions."  He said that, looking back, the night take-off and
forming-up was far more hazardous than the actual bombing run
itself.
     And if all that wasn't enough, because of the weather the B-26s
would have to drop their bombs at a low altitude of 5,500 feet,
rather than at the standard altitude of 10,000 to 12,000 feet.
     "Our crew members were apprehensive about this altitude
because our bombardiers had not dropped bombs from this altitude
since they were in bombardier school," McBride said.  They were
fearful of becoming "sitting-ducks" for the German air defenses
because of the low altitude.
     Reading from his actual navigation/flight log, he said his B-26's
engines were started on time, but it was delayed taking off for 19
minutes.  The 54-plane group of B-26s was comprised of three 18-
plane squadrons.  All were to climb on instruments through the bad
weather to Gravesend and then proceed to Friston to form up while
circling the "racetrack."
     "Our B-26, tail number 612, took off at 0438, according to the
log," the former navigator said.
     "As I reminisce, the climb to altitude through the clouds and ice
may have been the most dangerous part of our mission.  There was
no air traffic control.  Each aircraft navigated solely by flight plan
and there was no practical way to do accurate navigation.  On
instruments, it is quite disconcerting to know you have aircraft
immediately ahead of you that you can't see and immediately
behind you who can't see you," said McBride.
     Each pilot had been instructed during the mission briefing to
"under no circumstances" turn back south to England for
"whatever" reason.  Rather, the pilots were instructed to fly on to
France and, if necessary, bail out there.  The skies were filled with
every combat-ready aircraft stationed at more than 250 Allied air
bases in England -- and all headed in the same general direction.
     After forming-up for 27 minutes, the 54-plane group left Friston
and headed west to Selsey Bill.  It encountered headwinds causing
a 10-minute delay in arriving at Selsey Bill.  McBride said,
because of the delay, the group "cut the corner" at St. Catherines
Point and headed south along the English Coast toward the coastal
defenses at Utah Beach.
     As his B-26 proceeded along the English Coast toward
Cherbourg Peninsula, he could see breaks in the clouds south over
the English Channel.  At that point, his formation began looking
for a break in the clouds that would permit the group to proceed in
formation.
     Although below the clouds after descending to its assigned
altitude of 5,500 feet, the formation found visibility still restricted
by a dark gray haze.  Through the haze, however, McBride could
see heavy naval traffic in the Channel in all directions and the
firing of guns from Allied warships and German coastal defenses.
     "As we approached the target, numerous landing craft were
approximately a quarter of a mile out, heading for the beaches --
and the firing of coastal guns was more evident," he said.
     Hampered by low visibility, the B-26s approached the firing
coastal gun complex, located about 200 yards inland from the Utah
Beach coast line.  "My log indicates we dropped our bombs at
0620 -- seven minutes late -- but well before the 'drop dead' time of
0630," McBride said.
     "As we made landfall and crossed the target, we expected
fighters and flak.  However, we encountered no fighters -- and the
ground fire was unexpectedly light and only moderately accurate in
comparison to other missions.  I do not believe we had any losses
in the 387th.  As briefed, we continued to head south some 25
miles before turning west over the Channel to the Guernsey Islands
and then north, returning to base.  While over France, one could
see the parachutes our airborne troops had left in the fields only a
few hours before.
     "We landed back at Chipping Ongar at 0748 -- eight minutes
late," he related.
     General McBride attributes the low enemy air resistance to the
air superiority of the Allied forces, which was gained 12 months
preceding the invasion.  During the entire invasion, two lone
German fighters were seen and 15 bombers.
     "We had already paid the price in the 12 months preceding the
invasion while we were gaining air superiority in Europe," he said.
     "The German army was somewhat surprised and totally
confused by the invasion," McBride stresses.  In fact, he said,
history shows that Field Marshal Erwin Rommel, who had left the
day before to go home to celebrate his wife's birthday, was not
notified of the invasion until 10 a.m. June 6, and Adolph Hitler
was not notified until 2 p.m.  (Lankford is a reservist assigned to
the Air Force News Agency at Kelly AFB, Texas)
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
059.  Twenty-five missions to glory
by TSgt. Chris Costanzo
     The early days of WW II found our nation ill-prepared for war.
     Following the attack on Pearl harbor and the defeats of Bataan,
Wake Island and Corregidor, the United States devised a strategy
against the Axis powers on the two fronts:  island hopping across
the Pacific against the Japanese and an air war against Nazi
Germany.
     Recently, I interviewed three veterans of those early battles
fought high in the air over occupied Europe.
     Their goal -- to survive 25 missions...
     Two made it and returned to the States with a hero's welcome;
...the third was shot down on his 25th mission and spent the rest of
the war in a German prisoner-of-war camp.
     These are their stories...
                             &    &    &
The two who made it...
Colonel Robert Morgan and Sergeant C E. "Bill" Winchell
     Almost everyone has heard of the Memphis Belle, the first
plane and aircrew to complete 25 missions at a time when aircrew
were lucky to survive three to five missions.
     In early 1943, the air war was going badly for the U.S. Army's
Eighth Air Force flying out of England. Moral was low and early
losses were high.  For more than a year, the bombers flew over
Europe alone, relying only on the defensive firepower of their
formations to ward off German fighters.
     Some squadrons lost half their aircraft on a single mission!
     "You wised up fast," Colonel Robert Morgan, pilot of the Memphis
Belle, said.  "The thing was to have -- the attitude."
     "We're going out, and we're going to come back," he continued.
"Even though we'd lost 80 percent (of the 91st Heavy
Bombardment Group) after only three months, we still believed."
     "I was the left waist gunner," Sergeant Winchell continued.
"Bob (Colonel Morgan) flew the plane and my job was to keep the
enemy fighters of our tail!"
     Morgan pointed out that the early U.S. Army Air Forces was
made up of "young kids."  The older ones (officers) had just
finished college; and the younger ones (enlisted) had just finished
high school.
     "We were so young...we fussed and argued with each other, but
when you were on a mission, everyone fell into the puzzle and did
their job," he said.
     Morgan and the crew of the Memphis Belle earned their place
in history as the first group to complete 25 missions in the same B-
17 while keeping their entire team intact.
     "Also, the B-17 could take an awful lot of punishment, more so
than any other aircraft of that time," Col. Morgan said.
     During the Memphis Belle's 25 missions, at least seven engines
had been shot out and the wings of the Belle so shattered from
shrapnel and machine-gun fire that they had to be replaced.
     "All the time we flew," he continued, "none of us knew the
others had good luck charms.  Later, when we got home it turned
out that all of us had one but kept it to ourselves.
     "My girl's picture (his fiancee at the time, Margaret Polk, from
Memphis, gave the plane her namesake) was my good luck charm.
I kept it on the instrument panel.  We didn't depend on these
things, but we had to have something to hang on to."
     The crew of the Memphis Belle flew their  25th mission on May
17, 1943.  Soon afterward, they were ordered back to the U.S. to
publicize a nationwide war bond drive.
     For surviving 25 missions, each crewmember was given his
choice of assignment.
     Morgan wanted to fly the new B-29 Superfortress heavy
bomber beginning to be used against the Japanese in the Pacific.
     In 1944, he took command of a B-29 squadron deployed to
Saipan and led the first full-scale bombing raid over Tokyo,
surviving an additional 25 missions against Japan from the cockpit
of his B-29.  Following WWII, Morgan remained active in the U.S.
Air Force Reserve until 1965, when he retired as a Colonel.
     He was recently married in a red-carpet ceremony under the
wing of the original Memphis Belle aircraft, now on permanent
display in Memphis, Tenn.
     Included in the wedding party were James Verinis, Morgan's
co-pilot, and retired General Paul Tibbetts, who piloted the Enola
Gay, the B-29 which dropped the first atomic bomb on Hiroshima.
     In 1944, an hour-long documentary film was made about the
"Memphis Belle," WWII's most famous bomber and crew.  And a
full-length motion picture, produced in Hollywood, was released in
1990.
     "The movie serves to keep the 'Memphis Belle' in focus,"
Morgan said.  "The 'Memphis Belle' really stands for the Eighth Air
Force.  It's representative of a group of men and planes who flew
and fought over Europe.
     "We were very pleased with the movie," he continued.  "It
didn't portray us so much as it portrayed the team effort, although
90 percent of the combat shots actually took place.
     "The 'Memphis Belle' represents all those that got back and
especially those that didn't make it," Morgan concluded.
                             &    &    &
And the one who did not come back till later...
Capt. Burton M. Joseph
     In researching this story, I asked the Retirees Affairs Office at
O'Hare who had flown B-17s during the early years of WWII,
primarily in Europe.
     As always, they came through for me.  A week later I received a
call from Captain Burton M. Joseph from Chicago, who had been a
B-17 navigator with the Eighth Air Force.
     Like the crew members of the Memphis Belle,  Joseph flew 25
missions over Germany; but, unfortunately, his aircraft was shot
down on its 25th mission.
     "I was a member of the 100th Bomb Group," Joseph said,
"which was the same unit that the movie, '12 O'Clock High' was
made about.
     "When I first got to England, we didn't have radar yet and we
didn't have any long-range escort fighters that could keep up with
us, either.  The Royal Air Force got us across the English Channel
and then the Luftwaffe fighters took over from there."
     The German fighters weren't the only things working against
the Allied air crews.  Flak (explosions from anti-aircraft shells) and
rough weather also contributed to heavy losses.
     "They (the German fighters) flew right through our formation
and you either broke formation or risked a mid-air collision.  But
by the time I was shot down, tactics were different.  We had more
firepower, flew tighter formations and we were more experienced,"
he continued.
     "My 24th mission, the one that preceded my last mission, was
the first full-scale daylight bombing attack over Berlin.
     "During what would have been our final mission with "My
Achin' Back", our aircraft was hit by 88mm flak over
Braunschweig, Germany."  The explosion hit the B-17, midship,
directly below the pilot's and co-pilot's seats.
     Out of a crew of 10, Joseph was one of only three survivors.  He
was severely burned in the explosion and spent the remainder of
the war in a German prisoner-of-war camp.
     "I probably wouldn't have survived if not for the fact that I was
taken to a German hospital which was staffed by British Royal
Army doctors captured four years before at Dunkirk who looked
out for me."
     Among the British physicians was a plastic surgeon who
reconstructed Joseph's severely burned face.  "Being British, they
took extra care with me." he concluded.  "Without them, I wouldn't
have made it!"
     Joseph was liberated on April 19, 1945, by members of General
George S. Patton's Third Army.  He recently received his Purple
Heart medal in a ceremony held at O'Hare, and remains active with
the U.S. Air Force as a member of the Retiree Affairs Office, here.
(Costanzo edits the Air Carrier for the 928th Airlift Group at
O'Hare IAP ARS, Ill.)
--

      // \\
    //     \\                    Air Force News Agency
   |         |              Kelly Air Force Base, Texas, USA
   \  CMSgt  /      ___________________ /____________________________________
   \  Mike   /
   \ Bergman /
     \     /

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 10 May 1994 06:51:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: INF: USAAF 9-10 MAY 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
9 - 10 MAY 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  F-6, North American Mustang
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  Vengeance, Vultee

TUESDAY, 9 MAY 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 100+ Royal Air Force (RAF)
Vengeances, P-51s and B-25s hit positions and occupied areas at Moirang,
Kanglatongbi, Myothit and SE of Palel, and severely damage a bridge over the
Uyu River near Nawngpu-awng; Mogaung Valley targets, including targets in
support of ground forces near Kamaing, are pounded by 60+ B-25s, A-36s, P-51s
and P-40s; 9 P-51s hit troops and gun positions at Mawlu and Namkwin and hit
the Nalong area; 3 B-24s blast the barracks area at Nagorn Sawarn while 3
P-51s hit Anisakan Airfield, destroying or damaging 20+ trucks, 2 aircraft
and a locomotive; 8 B-24s lay mines in the Moulmein area, 2 others make a
diversionary strike on Martaban, and 5 mine the Mergui waterfront.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): HQ 33d Fighter Group moves from Shwangliu to
Pungchacheng, China.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 347: 823 bombers and 668
fighters are dispatched to hit marshalling yards and airfields in France,
Belgium and Luxembourg; this is the beginning of the pre-invasion bombing of
enemy installations; 6 bombers and 7 fighters are lost:
  1. Of 220 B-17s, 75 hit St Dizier Airfield, 53 hit Thionville Airfield and
37 hit Thionville marshalling yard, France and 53 hit Luxembourg marshalling
yard, Luxembourg; 38 B-17s are damaged.
  2. 242 B-17s are dispatched to bomb airfields in France; 113 hit
Laon/Athies, 71 hit Juvincourt, 43 hit Laon/Couvron, 10 hit Lille/Vendeville
and 1 hits Chievres; 2 B-17s are lost and 44 damaged; 1 airman is KIA, 1 WIA
and 20 MIA.
  3. Of 361 B-24s, 101 hit St Trond Airfield, 96 hit Florennes Airfield, 63
hit Liege marshalling yard and 6 hit Hody Airfield, Belgium and 68 hit
Laon/Couvron Airfield and 10 hit Nivelles Airfield, France; 2 B-24s are lost,
and 35 damaged; 2 airmen are KIA, 1 WIA and 44 MIA.
  Escort is provided by 144 P-38s, 277 P-47s and 247 P-51s; the P-47s claim
2-0-1 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 1-0-4 on the ground, the P-51s claim
1-0-0 in the air; 1 P-38 and 6 P-51s are lost; 1 P-38 is damaged beyond
repair and 1 P-51 is damaged; 6 pilots are MIA.
  Mission 348: 3 of 3 B-17s drop 1.34 million leaflets on 4 towns in The
Netherlands and 3 in Belgium.
  13 B-24s are dispatched on CARPETBAGGER missions without loss.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 367th and 406th Fighter Groups
become operational, the 17th and 18th operational groups.
  40+ B-26s attack marshalling yards, railway batteries, coastal defense
batteries, bridges, and NOBALL sites in France.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-26s hit Incisa in
Valdarno railroad bridge and viaduct while A-20s attack fuel dumps; fighter-
bombers again blast roads and railroads and other targets at various
locations N of Rome, including Lake Bolsena, Civitavecchia, Colleferro,
Civita Castellana, Orte and San Giovanni Valdarno.
  Unit moves: HQ 87th Fighter Wing from Bastia to Vescovato, Corsica; 111th
Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron, 68th Tactical Reconnaissance Group,
attached to XII Tactical Air Command, from Pomigliano to Santa Maria, Italy
with F-6s; 522d and 523d Fighter-Bomber Squadrons, 27th Fighter-Bomber Group,
from Castel Volturno to Santa Maria, Italy with A-36s and P-40s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): During the night of 8/9 May
B-24s stage through Kwajalein Atoll to bomb Truk Atoll. Makin Island-based
B-25s hit Wotje and Jaluit Atolls, using Majuro Atoll as a rearming point
between attacks.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): 33 fighter-bombers pound
the airfield at Lakunai, New Britain Island; fighter sweeps over New Ireland
and New Britain Islands, Bismarck Archipelago, continue. On Bougainville
Island, 30+ P-39s and P-38s hit barges in the Porton-Chabai area, huts at
Kieta and an ammunition dump S of Aitara Mission; 10 other P-38s and 12 B-25s
bomb Bonis Airfield and nearby targets of opportunity in Buka Passage.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 50+ B-24s and
B-25s bomb Langgoer and Faan airstrips, Bosnik supply area and Mokmer
Airfield; 220+ A-20s and fighter-bombers continue to blast numerous targets
of opportunity along the NE coastline from Wewak to the Hansa Bay area. 12
B-24s of the Thirteenth Air Task Force bomb Woleai Atoll.

WEDNESDAY, 10 MAY 1944

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): The Eleventh directs its components to place
more emphasis on photographing and bombing of specific targets instead of
general reconnaissance.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS: In a drive to free the Burma
Road, Chinese troops cross the Salween River on a 100-mi (160 km) front and
attack Japanese positions in N Burma.

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 70+ B-25s, A-36s, P-51s, P-40s and
10 B-24s blast numerous targets, concentrating on barracks and storage in the
Myitkyina-Mogaung vicinity and also hitting gun positions and bridges at
Kamaing and railroad siding and buildings at Mohnyin; 16 P-38s destroy
several aircraft in strikes on Aungban and Kangaung Airfields.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): P-40s sink 6 large junks and damage several
others in Fan Tou Bay, China and destroy several trucks between Wan Pa-Hsa
and Mong Ho Pung, Burma. 28 P-40s bomb Tengchung, China town area, strafe
a nearby truck convoy, damage bridges at Tingka, China; Bac Le, French
Indochina; and Hsenwi, Burma; hit a power dam at Tasa, French Indochina; bomb
a tank and truck dispersal area at Hsiangcheng, China; and hit 30+ railroad
cars at Lang Giai, Dong Dang and Na Cham, French Indochina.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): A bomber mission to Germany is
abandoned dur to deteriorating weather.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): About 300 B-26s attack marshalling
yards, airfields, and NOBALL targets in France and Belgium. P-47s and P-51s
dive-bomb targets in NW Europe for the sixth straight day. Bad weather causes
a large number of aborts.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 485th Bombardment Group
(Heavy) with B-24s is declared operational, giving the Fifteenth Air Force
its planned operational strength of 21 bomber groups. The 52d Fighter Group
with P-51s  also begins operations with the Fifteenth on this date, making
a total of 6 fighter groups.
  Around 400 bombers attack targets at Wiener Neustadt Austria; B-17s bomb
aviation industry targets; B-24s bomb the industrial area and an air depot;
200+ fighters provide support; 300+ bombers are forced to abort due to bad
weather which has halted operations for the past few days; opposition is
fierce; 21 bombers and 1 fighter are lost; US aircraft claim 50 aircraft.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, weather permits medium
bomber operations for first time in several days; B-25s hit bridges near San
Giovanni Valdarno, Orvieto and Monte Molino, and the Terni viaduct; B-26s
attack bridges W of Arezzo; fighter-bombers continue attacks on roads and
railroads N of Rome; targets in the areas of Avezzano, Civitavecchia,
Furbara, Terni, Todi, Orvieto, Manciano, Perugia, Monte San Savino and La
Saezia, and near Rome are attacked.
  Units moving from Cercola to Pignataro Maggiore, Italy with P-40s: 99th
Fighter Squadron, 332d Fighter Group, attached to 324th Fighter Group: 315th
and 316th Fighter Squadrons, 324th Fighter Group.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-24s from Kwajalein Atoll bomb
Wake Island during the night of 9/10 May. During the day, B-25s from Engebi
Island bomb Ponape Island while Makin Island-based B-25s raid Jaluit and
Wotje Atolls.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 41
fighter-bombers attack Tobera Airfield; 11 B-25s hit Matupi Island, Bismarck
Archipelago; fighters on a sweep, hit trucks W of Keravat. On Bougainville
Island, 4 B-25s bomb Majuai Mission; 61 P-39s (some back from the Tobera
strike) and 12 P-40s attack targets throughout the Buka-Bougainville
Islands area, including a bridge over the Crepers River, a supply area at
Mawareka, a barge at Chabai, a village on Schwarze Point, a pillbox at Gohi
and the general area of Porton Plantations.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 120+ B-24s,
A-20s and fighter-bombers, along with Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF)
aircraft, maintain attacks on targets of opportunity along the NE coast from
the Hansa Bay area to Wewak; 2 B-24s hit Mokmer Airfield. 45 B-24s of the
Thirteenth Air Task Force bomb the airfield on Eten Island and warehouse area
at Dublon Island, both in Truk Atoll.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 10 May 1994 14:54:31 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVS1.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: Recoilless guns

On Mon, 9 May 1994, Johannes van Vuren wrote:

> Some expert please explain the principle behind the recoilless gun. Why were
> these guns developed and to what extent were they used in ww2. I was always
> puzzled by how the rearward momentum is dissipated so as to make the gun
> truely recoilless.

I know of three really big recoilless guns that were developed before and
during WWII, but as far as I know, these werer never used in combat.
There were two German attempts and one Soviet:

MK 115: This was an 55mm gun that fired self-propelling cartridges, 0.5m long,
       at 300 rds/min; it weighed 180kg and was nearly recoilless -- part of
       the gas was ejected backwards.

G 104 : Gerat 104 was a 365mm, rifled tube, 10m long, and open at both ends;
       it fired a shell forward and a weight backward. Intended for the
       Junkers Ju 288G.

Kurcheyevskii : This was a 102mm recoilless gun that was installed in the
       Tupolev ANT-29 attack aircraft. The ANT-29 was built around this gun,
       with the two open ends of the barrel protruding from nose and tail.
       Flown in 1935, never entered production.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 10 May 1994 19:21:54 +0000
From:    Gudmundur Helgason <gummihe@ISMENNT.IS>
Subject: Re: Leon Degrelle

>
> I have just finished reading John Toland's "The Last 100 Days".  He
> talks about a man named Leon Degrelle who was the leader of the Rexist
> party in Belgium and volunteered for the SS.  At the end of the war he
> escaped to Norway where he had a meeting with Quisling.  Following
> Toland's account, a pilot wearing a high Gernan decoration picked him up
> and flew him to Spanmin where they crashed for lack of fuel.
>
> 1.  Who was Degrelle that he was given such preferential treatment?
>
> 2.  What happened to him?
>
> My apologies if this has been discussed before, but I don't recall
> seeing it on the list before.
>
> John Riegsecker

Leon Degrelle was the leader of the Degrelle batallion which was part of
the waffen SS (at least fought along it's divisions). He was one of a
handful of the batallion's men which escaped the Cherkassy pocket in Feb
1944 along with a part of the SS V. Wiking division. Degrelle was one of
only 3 men of his batallion which survived the war (they were some
thousands if I recall).
He retired into Spain (that plane trip I didnt know about) and I think
he lived into the 90's.

This is from memory but it should be very close :)



Gudmundur J. Helgason                      E-mail:    gummihe@ismennt.is
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Patriotism is the arrogance of assuming that your country is the greatest
 one there is, simply because *you* were born there".
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 10 May 1994 15:28:18 -0400
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: MEDIA: Silent Service

Jack McKillop writes:
> THE SILENT SERVICE was a 30-minute syndicated show; 78 episodes
> were produced in 1956-58 and first released in March 1957.  The
> series consisted of documentary-style dramas about US subs and all
> the stories were based on fact.  The show was the brainchild of
> retired Rear Admiral Thomas M. Dykers who retired in 1949 after 22
> years in the Navy, most in subs.  The Navy even loaned him the USS
> Sawfish for filming.

        Does anyone know if this show is available on videotape?
I've been looking for this for quite a while with no luck.  Thanks.
--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
The avalanche has already started; it is too late for the pebbles to
vote.  (I know it's not Kelly's Heroes, but I liked it when I heard it!)

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 10 May 1994 13:07:00 PST
From:    Stephen Fox <FOXS@AXE.HUMBOLDT.EDU>
Subject: Fate of Leon Degrelle

From:   HSUVAX::FOXS          3-APR-1994 08:23:03.04
To:     @WAR2FOX
CC:
Subj:   MEDIA: Belgium's Fascist Leader Dies

Brussels -- AP

Leon Degrelle, 87, Belgium's foremost Nazi collaborator and an unrepentant
admirer of Adolf Hitler, died in Malaga, Spain, on Thursday, almost 40 years
after his native country sentenced him to death.

Mr. Degrelle, who founded a fascist party and rode it to electoral success in
the 1930s, headed the Walloon Legion, a Belgian unit in the German army
during the war.

He was condemned to death in 1944, but escaped to Spain and the protection
of the right-wing dictator Francisco Franco.  Belgium tried to kidnap him
a year later but failed.

Mr. Degrelle was naturalized in 1954 and his new Spanish citizenship ruled out his
extradition to Belgium.

Living close to Malaga, he was host for meetings with Euroipean right-wing
extremists and neo-Nazis as long as hius health allowed.

"I used to be a Hiterlite and I still am one--up to the day I die," he said
in a 1977 interview.  He denied the existence of the Holocaust in which more
than 6 million Jews were killed by the Nazis before and during World War II.

SF Chronicle, April 2, 1994, A22

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 May 1994 01:27:28 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVS1.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: Fate of Leon Degrelle

On Tue, 10 May 1994, Stephen Fox wrote:

> Mr. Degrelle, who founded a fascist party and rode it to electoral success in
> the 1930s, headed the Walloon Legion, a Belgian unit in the German army
> during the war.
>
> He was condemned to death in 1944, but escaped to Spain and the protection
> of the right-wing dictator Francisco Franco.  Belgium tried to kidnap him
> a year later but failed.

The death sentence for Degrelle was extended twice, each time by ten
years, after its expiration date. Later he was forbidden by law to enter
Belgium (rumor has it that he nevertheless was in the country once or
twice). After his death, it was forbidden to bury him in Belgium --- but
it said that his supporters nevertheless have brought his ashes here, and
disposed of them in the valley of the Maas / Meuse, at a place called
'Tombeau du geant' (grave of the giant). Criminal investigations are under
way... Degrelle was never forgotten.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 9 May 1994 to 10 May 1994
************************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 10 May 1994 to 11 May 1994
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Status: O

There are 13 messages totalling 450 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. INF: USN Chronology 05-11-94
  2. INF: USAAF 11 MAY 44
  3. MEDIA: Silent Service (2)
  4. Order of Battle
  5. P-61 Black Widow
  6. GEN: Horrors of WWII -- are they over? (2)
  7. military brats wanted
  8. Kit Carson
  9. How To Locate Croutier's Forbidden Diary
 10. TRIV Colorization
 11. Zhukov shoots Beria?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 May 1994 01:17:39 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@CCLINK.LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 05-11-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
05/11 Thu. Submarine CREVALLE (SS-291) evacuates 28 women and
           children from Negros, P. I.
           United States Naval Advanced Amphibious Base,
           Southampton, England, is established.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 May 1994 06:57:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: INF: USAAF 11 MAY 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
THURSDAY, 11 MAY 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  Beaufighter, Bristol
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 70+ B-25s, A-36s, P-51s and P-40s,
attack the Myitkyina and Pinbaw areas, Sahmaw, targets NW of Kamaing, gun
positions at Nsopzup and targets of opportunity along the road from
Inkangahtawng to Kamaing; 24 P-51s attack the airfield at Meiktila, Anisakan
and Heho, shooting down 13 aircraft in the area; 14 B-24s pound Maymyo
railroad station; 12 B-25s attack the railroad in the Shwebo-Sagaing area;
and 12 other B-25s knock out bridges at Pyu, Thawatti, Ela and 7 mi (11.2 km)
S of Ela.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 24 P-40s knock out the main bridge
N of Mangshih, bomb the town area of Lungchwanchiang, and in French
Indochina, damage a radio station on Cat Ba Island and destroy several large
junks off shore, and attack a power dam W of Cao Bang, buildings at Dong
Dang, and boxcars and oil drums at Lang Giai. In China, 6 B-25s and 24 P-40s
(some firing rockets) pound railroad yards and depot at Sinyang, blast a
warehouse area 30 mi (48 km) to the N and sink a small freighter, 3 motor
launches and several sampans between Siaokan and Chienli; 2 B-25s and 4 P-40s
hit troops, tanks and trucks in the Yenshih-Tengfeng-Mihsien area and in the
Luchou-Hsiangcheng vicinity; 6 P-40s pound supply dumps at Mienchih and 13
P-40s sink at least 5 supply boats on the Yangtze River in the Hosueh area.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 350: 364 B-24s and 536
fighters are dispatched to bomb marshalling yards in France; 8 B-24s and 5
fighters are lost:
  1. 144 are dispatched to hit Mulhouse; 94 bomb the primary, 19 hit Belfort,
13 bomb Orleans/Bricy Airfield and 2 hit Mezidon/Pithiviers; 1 B-24 is lost,
2 damaged beyond repair and 17 damaged; 1 airman is KIA, 7 WIA and 40 MIA.
  2. 74 are dispatched to Belfort; 33 bomb the primary and 24 hit Chaumont;
1 B-24 is lost.
  3. 76 are dispatched to Epinal; 68 hit the primary and 1 bombs Caen
Airfield; 3 B-24s are lost.
  4. 70 are dispatched to Chaumont but none bomb; 3 B-24s are lost, 1
damaged beyond repair and 30 damaged; 1 airman is WIA and 31 MIA.
  Escort is provided by 147 P-38s, 188 P-47s and 201 P-51s; the P-38s claim
2-0-0 Luftwaffe aircraft on the ground, the P-47s claim 3-0-2 in the air
and 2-0-6 on the ground and the P-51s claim 3-0-0 on the ground; 2 P-4s and
3 P-51s are lost, 1 P-51 is damaged beyond repair and 2 P-38s, 6 P-47s and
2 P-51s are damaged; 5 pilots are MIA.
  Mission 351: In the afternoon, 609 B-17s and 471 fighters are dispatched
to hit marshalling yards in Belgium, France, Germany and Luxembourg; 8 B-17s
and 4 fighters are lost; primary targets are Brussels/Midi (55 bomb),
Brussels (49 bomb) and Liege, Belgium (119 bomb, 2 lost); Saarbrucken (58
bomb, 5 lost), Kons Karthaus (55 bomb) and Ehrang (60 bomb, 1 lost), Germany;
and Luxembourg (53 bomb); 12 hit the secondary target at Thionville, France;
and 16 hit Volkingen, Germany; 19 hit Bettembourg, Luxembourg and 51 hit
other targets of opportunity; 8 B-17s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and
172 damaged; 2 airmen are KIA, 23 WIA and 83 MIA. Escort is provided by 99
P-38s, 182 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s and 190 Eighth and Ninth Air
Force P-51s; the P-51s claim 11-0-4 Luftwaffe aircraft; 4 P-51s are lost,
the pilots are MIA.
  Mission 352: 4 of 5 B-17s drop 2.4 million leaflets over Denmark; 2
airmen are KIA and 3 WIA.
  4 B-24s are dispatched on CARPETBAGGER missions.
  850th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), VIII Air Force Composite Command
attached to 801st Bombardment Group (Provisional), moves from Eye to
Cheddington, England with B-24s; the squadron is flying CARPETBAGGER
missions.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 330+ B-26s attack airfields at
Beaumont-le-Roger and Cormeilles-en-Vexin and marshalling yard at Mezieres/
Charleville, France and Aerschot, Belgium. Bad visibility and failure to
rendezvous with fighters cause 100+ aborts. This is start of Ninth Air
Force's participation in AAF pre-invasion offensive against airfields.
  14th Liaison Squadron, XIX Tactical Air Command attached to Third Army,
moves from Alderley Edge to Knutsford, England with L-5s; first mission is
in Jul 44.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium bombers, hampered
by weather, attack Portoferraio, bridges near Orvieto and Ficulle, tracks at
Piombino, viaduct at Poggibonsi and bridges at Certaldo and Signa; fighter-
bombers hit Fondi, rail lines NE of Rome, Littoria Airfield, rail facilities
in the Perugia area, barge, harbor area, and factory in the Portoferraio
area, and tracks near Castiglione d'Orcia; other fighter-bombers attack
numerous positions along the main front as the US Fifth and British Eighth
Armies begin an assault through the Gustav Line and the drive toward Rome.
  414th Night Fighter Squadron, 63d Fighter Wing, based at Elmas, Sardinia,
sends a detachment to Alghero, Sardinia with Beaufighters; other detachments
are at Borgo and Ghisonaccia, Corsica.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-24s, staging through Eniwetok
Atoll, bomb Truk Atoll during the night of 10/11 May. During the day B-25s
from Engebi Island hit Ponape Island while others, based on Makin Island,
pound Jaluit Atoll.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 8
P-38s bomb a supply-personnel area W of Tobera; 12 B-25s, 12 P-40s and 3
B-24s hit Vunakanau Airfield; fighters on sweeps and bombing missions hit
various targets at Kabanga Plantation, the Gazelle Peninsula area, N of the
Sae River and at Labout. On Bougainville Island, 70+ P-39s, P-40s, and
P-38s (flying a total of 18 missions) attack a variety of targets, including
piers at Chabai, Ratsua and Porton, wooded area near Pipipaia, town of
Siruluna, bridge at Tokinotu, and Buka Airfield on Buka Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 190+ B-24s and
B-25s bomb gun emplacements and supply areas on Wakde Island and Mokmer
Airfield and targets of opportunity on Biak Island; 220+ fighter-bombers,
A-20s, B-24s and B-25s continue to pound coastal bridges and villages, fuel
dumps, vehicles, gun positions, supply areas, bivouacs and various targets
along the shoreline from Hansa Bay to Wewak.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 May 1994 08:01:39 EDT
From:    MNHAD007@SIVM.SI.EDU
Subject: MEDIA: Silent Service

Joe,  If anyone would still have this " The Silent Service " produced in the
late 50s.  Here are some ideas... Naval Academy, Electric Boat, UCLA and or
USC Media Libraries.  Check even for the names of people associated with the sh
ow.....  The Pentagon used to have a media office that actually made films and
later tried to manage others who made them for the Services ie. training films,
health films, even civilian dos and don't distributed to local theatres.
And when all else fails try the Smithsonian Instituion's National Museum of
American History, Military History.  Or call American History Library branch of
the Smithsonian Libraries.  Good Luck!  or should I say Good Hunting!

H. A. Kurt Luginbyhl
Scientific Computer Specialist
National Museum of Natural History
Washington D.C. 20560

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 May 1994 07:21:35 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Order of Battle

Hello, James!

I can check on that for you, bu it may be some time before I can get
it to you. Please be patient. I won't forget you.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 May 1994 07:36:26 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: P-61 Black Widow

Hello, Emmanuel, Peter and Aldo!

Here goes with some more info on the P-61A.

On 20 July 1943, the Army activated the 481st Night Fighter
Operational Training Group at Orlando Field, Florida. Not only was
the 481st responsible for training night fighter crews for
operational units, it also conducted the service tests for the YP-61
and was responsible for night air defense of Florida and the southern
US. Initially the group had one squadron assigned-the 384th NFS. As
the training program developed, squadrons would form as part of the
481st, train their crews, then be issued new aircraft and rotated
overseas on their respective combat assignments.

Only 2 USAAF NF squadrons did not have their crews trained at
Orlando. The 6th NFS and the 414th NFS were operational night fighter
units equipped with either P-70s or Beaufighters and their P-61As
were ferried to them in the combat zone. Initial pilot training for
new units was carried out in the Douglas P-70. They trained in ground
gunnery, both day and night gunnery, skip bombing and night
interception tactics. Radar operators received their first training
in Beech AT-11s followed by the yp-61s. The training course was four
months long. During January, 1944, the 481st NFOTG moved from Orlando
Field to Hammer Field, California.

Before the P-61s had become available the Army had tried several
different aircraft in the night fighter role. Mosquitoes and
Beaufighters had been obtained from the RAF under a kind of reverse
Lend-Lease. These aircraft were fitted with SCR-520 AI radars and
assigned to units in England. In the Pacific, several P-38Js were
fitted with SCR-540 AI radars in an attempt to augment the aging
Douglas P-70s.

The first unit to take the P-61A into combat was the 6th NFS in
Hawaii. The 6th NFS had been a night fighter squadron since late
1942, flying Douglas P-70s and P-38J conversions. On 1 May 1944, the
6th NFS received its first P-61A Black Widow at Hickam Field on Oahu.
Once all the squadron's aircraft were assembled and checked out, the
6th began the long flight to Saipan. Two days later, the 419th NFS
based on Guadalcanal exchanged its war-weary P-70s and P-38
conversions for P-61s.

In Europe, the first unit to take delivery of the P-61A was the 422nd
NFS which had been trained at Orlando Field in YP-61s. On 9 May 1944,
the 422nd brought their P-61As to Scorton RAF Station. They were
followed a month later by the 425th NFS. Combat operations in both
theaters began almost immediately. Although it was the 6th NFS on
Saipan that scored the first Black Widow kill.

More tomorrow.


Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 May 1994 08:39:24 -0400
From:    Kevin Kamphaus <kamphaus@PETSYS.AE.GE.COM>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Silent Service

Another possibility is the Television Museum in New York City. I doubt that they will give you copies but they may be able to tell you who to contact.

Kevin Kamphaus
kamphaus@petsys.ge.ae.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 May 1994 08:35:52 -0500
From:    "Sidney W. Kitchel" <kitchel@OCTOPUS.DPSI.COM>
Subject: GEN: Horrors of WWII -- are they over?

        My wife gets _Travel & Leisure_, a magazine associated with
American Express. The most recent issue came with a smaller magazine
commemorating D-Day. As could be expected this add-on was mainly a
vehicle for travel ads. It was also the vehicle for collateral ads for
stuff like WWII videos. One of these was for _The Longest Day_, the
color version! When will this plague of colorization stop? When will
the WWII horrors end??
                                                        --Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel           kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 May 1994 14:29:01 EDT
From:    S-ENDER@BSS1.UMD.EDU
Subject: military brats wanted

          VOLUNTEER BRATS WANTED

          VOLUNTEER BRATS WANTED to participate in a paper and
          pencil survey of military/civilian/missionary/state
          department/international business Brats...We are
          conducting a study of American adults who spent any
          time between birth and 12th grade overseas during
          the Cold War.  If you meet this criteria, send a
          postcard to Morten G. Ender, Department of Sociology,
          University of Maryland, College Park, MD, 20742 or
          e-mail S-ENDER@BSS1.UMD.EDU for more information.
          The study is completely confidential.  We simply
          want to learn more about your experience overseas
          and your life today.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 May 1994 15:23:35 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN: Horrors of WWII -- are they over?

Hello, Sid!

>         My wife gets _Travel & Leisure_, a magazine associated with
> American Express. The most recent issue came with a smaller magazine
> commemorating D-Day. As could be expected this add-on was mainly a
> vehicle for travel ads. It was also the vehicle for collateral ads for
> stuff like WWII videos. One of these was for _The Longest Day_, the
> color version! When will this plague of colorization stop? When will
> the WWII horrors end??

    Amen to that. And the real culprit in most cases is Ted Turner.
I, too, will never understand why any artist worth his salt would
want to take a masterpiece film made in black and white and colorize
it. Can you imagine "Twelve O'clock High" in living color?

    My thoughts anyway.

    Terry






>

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 May 1994 16:25:29 -0400
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <SPARKS@CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: Kit Carson

Noted in the May 1994 issue of 8th AF News, the quarterly journal
of the 8th AF Historical Society...

Leonard K. "Kit" Carson, died at Long Beach, CA sometime during the
last three months.  He was an ace with the Yoxford Boys, the 357th FG
of the 8th AF during WWII, flying several P-51s named "Nooky Booky",
and wrote a book titled "Pursue and Destroy", which I recommend.
Notice of his death had previously escaped my attention, or perhaps
never made the local paper.

On a different subject, I would like to hear from anyone with
information on the markings of any of the aircraft flown by Vermont
Garrison, an ace with the 4th FG.  A Kentucky native, he went on to
score several more victories while flying F-86s during the Korean War.
I would like to build a series of models of his aircraft for display
at the local airport, but haven't had a lot of success finding
photographs of his aircraft.

Dennis E. Sparks
sparks@caer.uky.edu
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 May 1994 16:51:20 -0400
From:    William Newbold Ely III <wely@GLUE.UMD.EDU>
Subject: How To Locate Croutier's Forbidden Diary

        Hi to all WWII buffs! My wife, Patty needs to get a good copy of
the following book related to the Philippines during World War II. To
quote her:
"I'm trying to find a out-of-print book called "The Forbidden Diary"
written by Natalie Croutier. It was published either in the late 1970's
or early 1980's and it's about an American woman who was captured by the
Japanese Army and imprisoned in the Philippines during the World War II.
Is there anyone who'd like to unload this book to me?  I'd be very happy
to buy it." unquote.
        Please feel free to e-mail me back or fax me at 703-866-4480.
Thanks, Newby!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 May 1994 20:01:17 -0400
From:    Steven VEST <vest@ALPHA.ACAST.NOVA.EDU>
Subject: TRIV Colorization

        There is a faint silver lining to colorization.  Before they
perform the procedure, they search and splice to get the absolute best,
most complete print of the film.  This means that a number of films (such
as 12:00 high) that might have had large sections lost due to breaks etc.
now exist once again in a "new" copy like it was when they showed it in
the theater.  I just turn down the color in my set, grab a beer and
enjoy it the way God intended.

Steven

==========================vest@alpha.acast.nova.ed===========================
= Steven Vest: Head, Off Campus Lib. Services: Nova University, Ft. Ldl, FL =
= Two broken tigers, on fire in the night, flicker their souls to the wind. =
=                                     Al Stewart--Past, Present and Future. =
===============No statements made here reflect Nova University===============

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 May 1994 21:41:26 -0400
From:    Emery Ford <eford@DELPHI.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Zhukov shoots Beria?

        Hello folks:

        I'm reading a 1990 vintage history of the Soviet Union by
MacKenzie and Curran.  In it, it says that Beria attempted a coup to
overthrow Malenkov after Stalin's death in 1953.  It says this was
thwarted and they speculate that Beria was shot by Zhukov.  Does anyone
know whether it was Zhukov, have any surrounding details, or know of
any other more factual account of the fate of Lavrentii Beria?

        --Emery

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 10 May 1994 to 11 May 1994
*************************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 11 May 1994 to 12 May 1994
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Status: O

There are 33 messages totalling 1223 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Leon Degrelle (2)
  2. U-boats as of 1937 (4)
  3. TRY again knight's cross
  4. knights cross winners photos (2)
  5. INF: USAAF 12 MAY 44
  6. TRIV Colorization (5)
  7. Zhukov shoots Beria?
  8. P-61 Black Widow
  9. <No subject given>
 10. Recoilless guns
 11. recoilless guns and misc.
 12. Bye
 13. military brats wanted
 14. TRIV: Colorization of Films
 15. Churchill and Seagulls (3)
 16. REF: Battling Buzzards
 17. To Drop or Not to Drop (4)
 18. To Drop or Not to Drop ... Dylan.  :-)
 19. Re[2]: To Drop or Not to Drop

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 May 1994 23:53:26 -0500
From:    Jon Stevens <jstevens@DAVID.WHEATON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Leon Degrelle

On Mon, 9 May 1994, Office TH325, Extension 3566 wrote:

> I have just finished reading John Toland's "The Last 100 Days".  He
> talks about a man named Leon Degrelle who was the leader of the Rexist
> party in Belgium and volunteered for the SS.  At the end of the war he
> escaped to Norway where he had a meeting with Quisling.  Following
> Toland's account, a pilot wearing a high Gernan decoration picked him up
> and flew him to Spanmin where they crashed for lack of fuel.
>
> 1.  Who was Degrelle that he was given such preferential treatment?
>
> 2.  What happened to him?>

Sometime last December there was discussion about Degrelle on the list.  You
might want to check the archives of the list for this information.

Degrelle wrote a biography of his life during WWII called (I think)
_Front de l'Est_, which has been translated into english.  It is a quite
fascinating account of life on the Eastern Front and the various foreign
volunteers in the German military.  If you would like I will find out the
english title of the book.

I have heard a rumor that Degrelle had spent the last few years writing a
longer version (7 vols.) of his life and exploits in WWII.  Anyone heard
this?

Jon Stevens -- jstevens@david.wheaton.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 May 1994 00:08:04 -0500
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: U-boats as of 1937

> Date:    Fri, 6 May 1994 09:20:38 -0400
> >From:    Norrin M Ripsman <nripsman@SAS.UPENN.EDU>
> Subject: Re: NAVY: 1936 U-boat listing
>
> > I'm not sure if this is what you are looking for but I have a 1937
> > rank list of the Kriegsmarine which lists every U-boat in service at
> > that time and provides a listing of the officers aboard each one.  If
> > that would be helpful let me know.
> >
> > Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil
> >
>
> Hi Bill:
>
> Thanks for your post.  This list would indeed be helpful.
>
> Norrin


Hi Norrin,

OK, Here it is:


Unterseeboote

Leader of U-boats  Kapitain zur See Doenitz


U-boat flottille 1  (Kiel)

U9, U13, U15, U17, U19, U21 and 23

reserve boats U7 and U11



U-boat flottille 2 (Wilhelmshaven)

U25, U26, U27, U28, U29, U30, U31, U32, U33, U34, U35 and U36



U-boat flottille 3 (Kiel)

U10, U12, U14, U16, U18, U20 and U22

reserve boats U8 and U24

Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 May 1994 15:39:14 +1000
From:    John Foster <PHS1A@CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU>
Subject: TRY again knight's cross

--Boundary (ID He79FnM0BT8HVb5B66eA9w)
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN

[**** Insert text here ****]

--Boundary (ID He79FnM0BT8HVb5B66eA9w)
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Date: Thu, 12 May 1994 13:43:23 +1000
From: John Foster <PHS1A@cc.newcastle.edu.au>
Subject: knights cross winners photos
To: wwii-l@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu
Message-id: <01HC96II2MF895S8YM@cc.newcastle.edu.au>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Hi All, Some time back there was a thread on folklore and a lot of stories
centered on caches of uniforms either found or irretreivably lost. I came
 across an account that may be of interest (especially to Terry)
in a book I found in a box of books I bought at auction.The title of the book
is "women of Berlin" and deals with Berlin in the last few weeks of the war and
the few weeks after under Russian occupation and is supposedly the diary of one
woman. This woman is trying to get food and start anew and finds a fellow who is
trying to get a newspaper or magazine started and having lots of dificulty
getting virtually anything as everything is being shipped off to Russia.They
have a supply of paper (a goldmine) and lots of great intentions. One of the
 great needs at this time was glass as every window was broken
letting draughts etc in.The women mentions she knows where to get some(to
consolidate her employment) and she heads off with two men to her previous
employers place(a publishing house).Down in the basement which is in bad shape
they hide behind a crate when the lady of the house appears.When
the lady goes they unpack the crate and carefully take the glass out of all the
picture frames therein and discard the photos and take off with their precious
 booty. It seems the crate contained the prizes for a competition which had been
run by the publishing house and never concluded.It was full of signed photos of
all the Knights cross winners. Wowsers! Regards John Foster






--Boundary (ID He79FnM0BT8HVb5B66eA9w)--

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 May 1994 15:46:32 +1000
From:    John Foster <PHS1A@CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU>
Subject: knights cross winners photos

Hi All,
      Some time back there was a thread on folklore and a lot of stories
centered on caches of uniforms either found or irretreivably lost. I came
 across an account that may be of interest (especially to Terry)
in a book I found in a box of books I bought at auction.The title of the book
is "women of Berlin" and deals with Berlin in the last few weeks of the war and
the few weeks after under Russian occupation and is supposedly the diary of one
woman. This woman is trying to get food and start anew and finds a fellow who is
trying to get a newspaper or magazine started and having lots of dificulty
getting virtually anything as everything is being shipped off to Russia.They
have a supply of paper (a goldmine) and lots of great intentions. One of the
 great needs at this time was glass as every window was broken
letting draughts etc in.The women mentions she knows where to get some(to
consolidate her employment) and she heads off with two men to her previous
employers place(a publishing house).Down in the basement which is in bad shape
they hide behind a crate when the lady of the house appears.When
the lady goes they unpack the crate and carefully take the glass out of all the
picture frames therein and discard the photos and take off with their precious
 booty. It seems the crate contained the prizes for a competition which had been
run by the publishing house and never concluded.It was full of signed photos of
all the Knights cross winners. Wowsers!
 Regards John Foster

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 May 1994 07:07:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: INF: USAAF 12 MAY 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
FRIDAY, 12 MAY 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  P-70, Douglas
  SBD, Douglas Dauntless
  TBF, Grumman Avenger

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 1 B-24 reconnoiters and bombs installations
on Matsuwa Island, Kurile Islands, concentrating on the airfield on Tagan
Cape.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 4 B-25s strike the Tiddim road NNW
of Tonzang; 50+ B-25s and fighter-bombers knock out a railroad bridge at
Pinbaw, pound gun positions and supply area at Myitkyina and hit defensive
positions near Kazu-Tiangsup; 4 B-25s damage Myothit bridge while 8 P-38s
bomb Kyaukye; 21 P-51s hit airfields at Meiktila and Heho, claiming 8
Japanese aircraft downed; 4 B-25s knock out a bridge at Daga while 2 others
bomb a camp at Taungbaw.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): 16 P-40s and 11 B-25s hit several targets in
S China and in French Indochina. In China, military installations, artillery
positions and tank concentrations are pounded in the Yoyang area, a bridge
and several trucks are damaged at Sienning, a naval vessel is attacked at
Hong Kong and in French Indochina, a radio station on Cat Ba Island is bombed
and railroad yards, supply dump, and river junks are blasted in the Phu Langi
Thuong area.
  HQ 81st Fighter Group moves from Karachi, India to Kwanghan, China.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 353: 886 bombers and 735
fighters are dispatched to hit oil production facilities in Germany and
Czechoslovakia; there is strong Luftwaffe fighter reaction and 46 bombers and
7 fighters are lost:
  1. 326 B-17s are dispatched to Mersenburg (224 bomb) and Lutzkendorf (87
bomb); 1 hits Hedrongen and 1 bombs Bullstadt; 2 B-17s are lost, 3 damaged
beyond repair and 189 damaged; 4 airmen are KIA, 6 WIA and 20 MIA.
  2. 295 B-17s are dispatched to Brux, Czechoslovakia (140 bomb) and Zwickau
(74 bomb); 11 hit Chemnitz, 14 hit Gera marshalling yard, 15 hit Hof and 4
hit targets of opportunity; 41 B-17s are lost, 1 is damaged beyond repair and
162 damaged; 3 airmen are KIA, 8 WIA and 377 MIA.
  3. 265 B-24s are dispatched to Zeitz (116 bomb) and Bohlen (99 bomb); 14
hit Mersenburg, 1 hits Ostend Airfield, Belgium and 12 hit targets of
opportunity; 3 B-24s are lost, 5 damaged beyond repair and 61 damaged; 7
airmen are WIA and 33 MIA.
  Escort is provided by 153 P-38s, 201 P-47s and 381 P-51s; P-38s claim 2-0-0
Luftwaffe aircraft, P-47s claim 26-0-8 and P-51s claim 33-0-3 in the air and
5-0-2 on the ground; 4 P-47s and 3 P-51s are lost and 4 P-47s and 9 P-51s are
damaged; 7 pilots are MIA.
  Mission 354: 5 of 5 B-17s drop 1.74 million leaflets on Denmark; 1 aircraft
is damaged; 2 airmen are KIA and 3 WIA.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): IX Troop Carrier Command carries out
Operation EAGLE, a full-scale exercise of the tactics and techniques of
paradrop, glider tow, parapack in resupply, air landing of supplies and
medical evacuation as a dress rehearsal for the airborne invasion of
Normandy.
  450+ B-26s attack coastal defenses, airfields, bridges, railroads and
railroad guns, and V-weapon sites in France and Belgium; thick haze impedes
visibility and causes many aborts.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Italy, around 730 B-17s and
B-24s (largest force to date) attack German HQ at Massa d'Albe and Monte
Soratte; town of Civitavecchia; airfields at Tarquinia and in the surrounding
area; marshalling yards at Chivasso, Piombino, Marina di Carrara, Viareggio
and Ferrara; Orbetello Island; Piombino harbor; docks and communications at
San Stefano al Mare ; harbor, marshalling yard and railroad bridge at
Chiavari; La Spesia marshalling yard and harbor; and several targets of
opportunity; 25 P-38s strafe Piacenza Airfield; other fighters fly 250+
sorties in support of bombing missions.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, A-20s blast command
posts along the main battlefront as Allied ground forces seek to break
through the Gustav Line; medium bombers hit a concentration near Fondi,
attack forces at Vallecorsa and Pastena and bomb numerous positions along the
main front; fighter-bombers pound command posts, guns, bridges, road and rail
traffic and troops along the assault front and in the rear areas,
concentrating especially on the Monte Cassino Benedictine Abbey and
surrounding area.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): 12 Makin Island-based B-25s bomb
Nauru Island. A single B-24 from Kwajalein Atoll bombs Jaluit Atoll.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 12
B-25s and 20+ P-40s and P-38s pound Tobera Airstrip and nearby personnel
areas; some of the B-25s returning from Tobera bomb Sohano Island, Solomon
Islands; 12 P-39s and about 70 US Navy (USN) SBDs and TBFs sink numerous
barges throughout the Rabaul area, especially at Simpson Harbor and Keravia
Bay; gun positions in the Matupi area are also attacked.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): B-24s bomb Mokmer Airfield,
New Guinea, and attack targets on Ceram Island, Moluccas Islands; Amboina,
Ambon Island, Moluccas Islands; and Timor Island. In New Guinea, A-20s, B-25s
and fighter-bombers blast villages, coastal bridges and roads, vehicles, the
airstrip at Boram and other targets throughout the Wewak-Hansa Bay region.
  Unit moves in New Guinea: HQ 3d Bombardment Group (Light) from Nadzab to
Hollandia; 66th Troop Carrier Squadron, 433d Troop Carrier Group, based at
Nadzab begins operating from Tadji with C-47s; 418th Night Fighter Squadron,
310th Bombardment Wing (Medium), from Finschhafen to Hollandia with B-25Hs,
P-38s and P-70s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 May 1994 08:26:27 -0500
From:    "W.C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <ERCOUPE@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: TRIV Colorization

>        There is a faint silver lining to colorization.  Before they
>perform the procedure, they search and splice to get the absolute best,
>most complete print of the film.  This means that a number of films (such
>as 12:00 high) that might have had large sections lost due to breaks etc.
>now exist once again in a "new" copy like it was when they showed it in
>the theater.  I just turn down the color in my set, grab a beer and.
>enjoy it the way God intended.

Good point, Steve.  While we have discussed the 'loss' of much information
(oral history) due to mortality stats closing in on the participants in
WWII, the loss of much of the film media is also a real concern.  The old
nitrate films just don't stand the test of time....and much has already
been lost.  So while 'colorization' is certainly an affront to the artistic
mind, it DOES provide a venue for preservation.  And whether or not we
like it, we are living in a world that cries for color media.

It is disturbing, however, that so much of the filmed record is passing
into the hands of a few moguls.  Hopefully their sense of posterity will
prevent these items from being taken out of general circulation.


#### W.C. (Rusty) Divens ####
####    Access Services  ####       |__*__|        N93774+@pitt.edu
#### Falk Library of the ####  =======( )=======   ERCOUPE+@pitt.edu
####   Health Sciences   ####      |   |   |                   /|\
####   200 Scaife Hall   #### (Echo Romeo Charlie)           /  |) \
####   U of Pittsburgh   ####                              /    |)   \
####   Pgh, PA  15261    ####  wcd@icarus.lis.pitt.edu   /_____ |)    )
####  FAX: 412-648-9020  ####  DIVENS@shrsys.hslc.org    ---~~~~~~~----
####  VOX: 412-648-1013  ####                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
#### ARIEL:136.142.56.30 ####
####  GPS: 40:27N 80 W   ####

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 May 1994 07:30:04 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Zhukov shoots Beria?

Hello, Emery!

Glad to hear from you again.

>         I'm reading a 1990 vintage history of the Soviet Union by
> MacKenzie and Curran.  In it, it says that Beria attempted a coup to
> overthrow Malenkov after Stalin's death in 1953.  It says this was
> thwarted and they speculate that Beria was shot by Zhukov.  Does anyone
> know whether it was Zhukov, have any surrounding details, or know of
> any other more factual account of the fate of Lavrentii Beria?

    I have some info on L. Beria and will check it out for you. Will
post it to you if someone else hasn't gotten it to you before.

    Beria was very quickly eliminated after the death of Stalin. Will
get more details.

    More later.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 May 1994 08:30:29 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <sep@TVSS2.COMMNET.EDU>
Subject: Re: TRIV Colorization

Whilst I have no problems with the preservation of WW-II films to
prevent their being lost forever, why can't they re-print them in
B&W? Why must it be color? Why can't they present both versions
to the public, so we can have our choice???

                                                        Steve
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - sep@trctc.commnet.edu |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 May 1994 07:38:00 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: knights cross winners photos

Hello, John!

Thanks for the info on this below. All I can say is that I wish I
could have been there to help her open that crate.

Thanks for posting this.

Terry

----------------------------------------------------------------------


>       Some time back there was a thread on folklore and a lot of stories
> centered on caches of uniforms either found or irretreivably lost. I came
>  across an account that may be of interest (especially to Terry)
> in a book I found in a box of books I bought at auction.The title of the book
> is "women of Berlin" and deals with Berlin in the last few weeks of the war and
> the few weeks after under Russian occupation and is supposedly the diary of one
> woman. This woman is trying to get food and start anew and finds a fellow who is
> trying to get a newspaper or magazine started and having lots of dificulty
> getting virtually anything as everything is being shipped off to Russia.They
> have a supply of paper (a goldmine) and lots of great intentions. One of the
>  great needs at this time was glass as every window was broken
> letting draughts etc in.The women mentions she knows where to get some(to
> consolidate her employment) and she heads off with two men to her previous
> employers place(a publishing house).Down in the basement which is in bad shape
> they hide behind a crate when the lady of the house appears.When
> the lady goes they unpack the crate and carefully take the glass out of all the
> picture frames therein and discard the photos and take off with their precious
>  booty. It seems the crate contained the prizes for a competition which had been
> run by the publishing house and never concluded.It was full of signed photos of
> all the Knights cross winners. Wowsers!
>  Regards John Foster
>

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 May 1994 07:40:47 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Leon Degrelle

Hello, Jon and others!

Yes, DeGrelle was discussed in some detail earlier on this list.

> Degrelle wrote a biography of his life during WWII called (I think)
> _Front de l'Est_, which has been translated into english.  It is a quite
> fascinating account of life on the Eastern Front and the various foreign
> volunteers in the German military.  If you would like I will find out the
> english title of the book.
>
> I have heard a rumor that Degrelle had spent the last few years writing a
> longer version (7 vols.) of his life and exploits in WWII.  Anyone heard
> this?

    No, but it wouldn't surprise me given the magnitude of his ego.

    He died within the past 6 months.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 May 1994 08:01:23 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: P-61 Black Widow

Hello, Aldo, Emmanuel, Peter and others!

Here goes with some more info on the P-61A.

One of the first units to begin operations from recently secured
Isley Field on Saipan, the 6th NFS arrived on 21 June 1944. Nine days
later on 30 June, 2nd LT. Dale Haberman and his Radar Operator (RO)
Flight Officer, Raymond Mooney intercepted two bogies in their P-61A
MOONHAPPY. It took some thirty minutes for Mooney to vector the P-61
into position so that Haberman could make the kill. The bogies were
identified as a Mitsubishi G4M Betty bomber with a Zero fighter
escort. Haberman hit the Betty in the port engine, then dove the P-
61A away from the Zero. Haberman later recalled "We left him like he
was in reverse." The Betty was later seen exploding in the sea near
Saipan.

The first European kill went to the 422nd NFS-but it was not a manned
aircraft. On the night of 15/16 July 1944, LT. Herman Ernst, with LT.
Edward Kopsel acting as RO, was vectored to intercept a German V-1
Buzz Bomb over the English Channel. LT. Ernst brought the P-61A
BORROWED TIME to within 900 feet of the flying bomb before he opened
fire with his 20mm cannon, scoring hits on the V-1s propulsion unit.
The rocket went into a steep dive and exploded while still over the
Channel.

The 422nd NFS introduced the use of Gloss Black as a camouflage for
the P-61. The unit found that Gloss Black was a much better night
scheme than either the Olive Drab/Neutral Gray or Flat Black schemes.
Flat Black paint absorbed light making the P-61 appear as a "hole" in
the glare of searchlights while Gloss Black reflected the searchlight
beams. The light colored radome on some aircraft came from the
unpainted fiberglass. Later the radomes were painted using RAF
paints, most of which were light colors such as yellow. When the
aircraft were repainted Gloss Black, lead was often sprayed on the
underside of the nose and radome to eliminate ground clutter, giving
the nose a light gray color.

The 425th NFS decided to move the radar operator from the rear of the
aircraft to the gunner's position behind the pilot. Even though the P-
61As used by the 425th had no dorsal turrets, the gunner's seat was
often retained for use by observers or for training other crew
members. The 425th decided to move the RO into this vacant position
in the aircraft. Thid woudl bring another pair of eyes into the
cockpit which would greatly assist the pilot during night intruder
missions.

The 9th Air Force brass originally vetoed the idea, however, one
aircraft was modified "on the sly" and the results proved the
concept. After flight testing the modified aircraft, 9th AF officials
changed their minds and authorized the conversion for all turretless
P-61As.

That is it for today. More tomorrow.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 May 1994 10:04:58 -0400
From:    Norrin M Ripsman <nripsman@SAS.UPENN.EDU>
Subject: Re: U-boats as of 1937

Thanks for the list Bill.

I now have a related question.  I have read in Cajjus Bekker's HITLER'S
NAVY (courtesy of Terry Moore), V. E. Tarrant's U-BOATS AND T-BOATS and
other sources that while Donitz was gaining support for using the wolfpack
strategy to employ the U-boat as a commerce raiding weapon [at night on
the surface like it was used successfully in 1918], the British Royal Navy
discounted the U-boat as strategically significant.  Their calculation was
based primarily upon the convoy system and ASDIC.  This seems like a
foolish determination, especially since ASDIC could only be helpful in
detecting submerged submarines.

Is anyone aware of any British or French military opinion before the war
which was concerned about German U-boats?  [Under the terms of the 1935
Anglo-German Naval Treaty, Germany was allowed, at its discretion, to
reach parity in tonnage with the British submarine fleet].  In addition
did the British or French view the German bomber force [which possessed a
numerical superiority vis-a-vis both the British and the French] as a
threat to commerce?

Thanks in advance,

Norrin M. Ripsman

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 May 1994 10:26:38 EDT
From:    Joe Cafaro <jcafaro@MENTOR.LGC.PEACHNET.EDU>
Subject: <No subject given>

This is my first posting to this list.  I must say that I am thoroughly
enjoying it!  I would like to add to the discussion on Leon Degrelle
by pointing out that a recent book on Degrelle and the Rexist Movement
in Belgium has been published.  The citation is as follows:
"Collaboration In Belgium: Leon Degrelle And The Rexist Movement
1940-1944".  By Martin Conway, Yale Univ. Press, 1993.  ISBN #
0-300-05500-5.  Once again, many thanks to all of you for the
quality of this list.

                                        Joe Cafaro
                                        History Dept.
                                        LaGrange College
                                        LaGrange, Ga. 30240
                                        e-mail JCafaro@Mentor.
                                        LGC.Peachnet.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 May 1994 11:39:43 -0400
From:    "John E. Kollar" <KILLAR@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU>
Subject: Re: Recoilless guns

Steve, you're right,
the gun losses alot of efficiency in the turm of muzzle velocity, but
I don't know of the effiency lost.  In early version, the anti-recoil
was a solid shot that fell out the rear of the gun, but more advanced
version vented gas and smaller projectiles out of tubes in the rear
of the gun, causing huge backblast.  The lost of efficiency is shown
in the lack of modern systems that use the recoilless gun, either
a modern gun is made, or a rocket/missile is created, the recoilless
gun basically fits between the two and is not as good as either.

BTW, I consider myself a techie, just because I don't use terms like
that people don't understand, but I believe in being a 'gentle' techie,

John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 May 1994 11:55:41 -0400
From:    "John E. Kollar" <KILLAR@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU>
Subject: Re: recoilless guns and misc.

Also, Mark, the current generation of American ships could be seen as the
parallel to the Dido, Atlanta, et al classes of AA cruisers, but the
vertical launch system that the US ships employ can also be used for the
Tomahawk ASM, and the ships also carry 8 Harpoon missiles, which gives
them a potent anti-surface capability, and the Standard missiles also
have a secondary anti-ship capability, which while it won't sink anyone,
it will shred all their topside fittings.
Note: I played out once a battle between the Kirov and the Tico VLS
version, the Tico shot down all of the Kirovs missiles, and the Kirov
shot down all of the Ticos ASMs, but then the Tico got close enough
to use her Standards as ASMs and took every radar and fitting of the
Kirov, then closed and used her five inch guns on the now defenceless
hulk.  Weird scenario.

John E. Kollar
(ps I'll write soon)

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 May 1994 12:26:44 -0400
From:    "John E. Kollar" <KILLAR@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU>
Subject: Bye

Thanks for an engrossing semester people, I'll see you in september,
thanks for all the help to,

John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 May 1994 10:17:03 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: U-boats as of 1937

Norrin...
When the Anglo-German Naval Treaty concluded in 1935, the British agreed
to an expansion of the German fleet to 35% of the total tonnage of the
Royal Navy -- 45% for submarines.
        At that time, the German Naval High Command believed (like the
British) that Sonar/ASDIC would render the submarine obsolete as a serious
weapon. A German Navy directive in October 1936 announced, "... The
unrestricted submarine warfare that led to American entry into World War
One could no longer be considered". For the next year or so. all Raeder's
plans were towards the expectation of surface raiding.
        Perhaps the failure to attain the ambitious naval-building "Plan Z"
had sosmething to do with swerving back to emphasis on U-boat undersea
operations. Or maybe by 1939 both sides had come around to seeing that
even ASDIC would likely only change U-boat warfare, not necessarily end it.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 May 1994 10:39:37 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: U-boats as of 1937

Norrin...
        You ask, did the British/French consider the German bomber
force as a threat to commerce?
        Probably. However, there was far more apprehension about the
German bomber force as threat to the civilian population. Ever since
indiscriminate bombing of cities from the air was introduced by Germany
in the First World War, that prospect haunted British and French politicians
and military leaders.
        Their fear, and that of the population of London and Paris remained
from the terror of bombing raids by German Zeppelins, and heavy Giant and
Gotha bombers, which had raided the two capitals repeatedly in 1917 and 1918.
German bomber aircraft then inflicted almost 5000 civilian casualties in
London alone.  By 1938, knowledge of great advances in German aircraft
technology seemed a hideously dangerous threat.

See:   THE SKY ON FIRE: The First Battle Of Britain,
        by Raymond H. Fredette, Harcourt Brace, NY, 1966.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 May 1994 13:01:51 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: TRIV Colorization

> Whilst I have no problems with the preservation of WW-II films to
> prevent their being lost forever, why can't they re-print them in
> B&W? Why must it be color? Why can't they present both versions
> to the public, so we can have our choice???

A year or so ago, Congress actually enacted legislation calling for the
creation of a permanent archive of historical and classic American films
(via the Smithsonian, perhaps?)

These films are required to be preserved in their _original_ form.

This was prompted by the mass undertaking of colorization and, in fact,
sparked at least in part by the fears that a black and white copy of
Casablanca may eventually be lost to time in the colorization world.

A number of films were marked for required preservation and the concept
was apparently to add to that list on an annual basis.

Since that time, I've heard nothing about this process.

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 May 1994 13:05:50 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: TRIV Colorization

> >        There is a faint silver lining to colorization.  Before they
> >perform the procedure, they search and splice to get the absolute best,
> >most complete print of the film.  This means that a number of films (such
> >as 12:00 high) that might have had large sections lost due to breaks etc.
> >now exist once again in a "new" copy like it was when they showed it in
> >the theater.  I just turn down the color in my set, grab a beer and.
> >enjoy it the way God intended.
>
> Good point, Steve.  While we have discussed the 'loss' of much information
> (oral history) due to mortality stats closing in on the participants in
> WWII, the loss of much of the film media is also a real concern.  The old
> nitrate films just don't stand the test of time....and much has already
> been lost.  So while 'colorization' is certainly an affront to the artistic
> mind, it DOES provide a venue for preservation.  And whether or not we
> like it, we are living in a world that cries for color media.

Logic says that these films, of which the original nitrate stock will
eventually be destroyed (you can't stop the entropy), should be digitally
transferred to a medium that will withstand time and suffer little or no
signal loss.

These digital copies can be colorized to your hearts content easier than
film (at least it will be within a reasonable amount of time).

While I sometimes find colorized films intriguing, (all the color details
going into someone you _know_ will only be seen black and white), the black
and white original _must_ be preserved.  If not on original film stock, at
least on an acceptable digital method.

> It is disturbing, however, that so much of the filmed record is passing
> into the hands of a few moguls.  Hopefully their sense of posterity will
> prevent these items from being taken out of general circulation.

Ted Turner, one of the moguls, _wants_ you to see these films.  Unfortunately,
it has to be by his rules.

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 May 1994 15:10:31 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: military brats wanted

Did someone say "volunteers"? 'Gotta go now,... ;-)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Wild, LAN Mgr.  Father of 1.5             Voice:          (401) 792-2611
ACC - Lippitt - URI  American Legion Post 102. FAX:            (401) 792-5479
Kingston, RI  02881                            Bitnet:           AWild@URIACC
                                               Internet: AWild@URIACC.URI.EDU
Murphy's Mother's axioms:
 - Only errors exist.
 - One person's error is another person's data.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 May 1994 12:27:01 PST
From:    "Jones, Scott T." <sjones@CCLINK.LOGICON.COM>
Subject: TRIV: Colorization of Films

     Robert Granvin wrote...

        "Ted Turner, one of the moguls, _wants_ you to see these films.
        Unfortunately, it has to be by his rules."


     And also his prices. Makes you wonder, when is enough money enough?
     Think he'll add white and blue to his "red" wife, Jane Fonda?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
     Scott T. Jones                | "Even a blind dog finds a bone
     Dahlgren, VA 22448  USA       |  once in a while."
     Internet: Sjones@LOGICON.COM  |
_____________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 May 1994 14:55:32 -0500
From:    "Sue Hattabaugh, Valparaiso University" <SHATTABAUGH@EXODUS.VALPO.EDU>
Subject: Churchill and Seagulls

This may be a silly question but, in a history class a couple yrs.
ago I read or was told by prof. the legend that Churchill was
involved in a scheme to train seagulls to, ah, delicately put, "dirty"
periscopes of German subs.  Could this possibly be true?  I am
intrigued. I hope my ignorance isn't showing too badly.
Thanks,
Sue
shattabaugh@exodus.valpo.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 May 1994 13:11:11 -0700
From:    Jim Benn <jrb@AGAVIION.AGFX.COM>
Subject: Re: REF: Battling Buzzards

I just finished the following book:
Battling Buzzards; the odyssey of the 517th Parachute Regimental Combat
Team 1943-1945, by Gerald Astor.  Donald I. Fine, 1993.

I'd recommend the book as a good unit and combat history of this RCT.
With this List's affinity for Kelley's Heroes, I thought some might enjoy
this tidbit from the book (p.198).  The author is describing how a
replacement officer (Lt. John Saxion) made his way to the unit in
southern France.

Saxion had a history of going AWOL already, but while he was waiting in a
repple depple in Sicily, he found out his wife and child had been killed
in a car crash.  He flipped out, and here's what happened:

QUOTE

Saxion went AWOL again, and on this occasion hitched a ride with two
pilots to northern Italy in an observation plane. "They had only two
parachutes, none for me.  I joined a ragtag group of about twenty men,
all AWOL.  There were black Americans from service companies, some truck
drivers and quite a few British, including a lieutenant who acted as CO.
They had four jeeps, a weapons carrier and two 75mm howitzers.  Their
self-appointed mission was to fire  at targets of opportunity while
avoiding the MPs".

ENDQUOTE

Sounds like Kelley's Heroes without the gold.  Upon hearing of the
invasion of southern France, Saxion returned to the repple depple.  He
was court martialed, but came out with only a $500 fine and orders to
join the 517th ASAP.  A Colonel in charge of the depot confined him to
barracks thought, so he solved that problem by going AWOL again, finding
a C-47 that was due to fly a supply mission over southern France, and
jumping out over the general area where the 517th was deployed.  He found
them and presented his orders.

The book is full of fascinating stories of the men who made up this
unit.  The only odd note in the book was in the last chapter when the
author offered the opinion that "there was no great incidence of post
traumatic stress syndrome, the catch-all of the ills seemingly incurred
by participants in Vietnam".

After saying that (p. 321) he goes on the talk about the 517th vets who
have "nightmares, disturbing dreams..., flashbacks", and how the wife of
one vet said her husband often weeps when scenes of WWII are on TV.
Sounds like PST to me.  I was disturbed by this cheap shot at the Vietnam
generation of soldiers and the lack of understanding by the author as to
what the surviving vets were describing.

Otherwise, a worthwhile read.


 *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*> Jim Benn  [jrb@agaviion.agfx.com] <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=*
 |-=[        Auto-Graphics, Inc.       ]=[      /~~)       /~~)           ]=-|
 |-=[        8 West Main Street        ]=[     (__(_UTO - (__/RAPHICS     ]=-|
 |-=[        Niantic, CT  06357        ]=[              .___/             ]=-|
 *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*>  PHONE: 800-733-6939 = FAX: 203-691-0183  <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=*

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 May 1994 16:31:12 EDT
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor,
         Marist Coll" <JZML@MARISTB.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Churchill and Seagulls

>This may be a silly question but, in a history class a couple yrs.
>ago I read or was told by prof. the legend that Churchill was
>involved in a scheme to train seagulls to, ah, delicately put, "dirty"
>periscopes of German subs.  Could this possibly be true?  I am
>intrigued. I hope my ignorance isn't showing too badly.
>Thanks,
>Sue
>shattabaugh@exodus.valpo.edu
Sue - I will check my Churchill books and other sources from the
International Churchill Society, but this story is a new one on me.
If you can wait a week or two, I am in correspondence (via snail
mail) with Prof. Martin Gilbert of Oxford University in England
(he is Churchill's official biographer and a WWII historian.) I'll
ask him if he ever heard of this story.
Regards-

Jonah Triebwasser
Adjunct Instructor
Marist College
Dyson Building (Adult Education)
Poughkeepsie, New York12601
Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
E-Mail: jzml@maristb.marist.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 May 1994 14:01:41 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Churchill and Seagulls

:-)
        :-)
                :-)
!!!

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 May 1994 17:06:00 PST
From:    HIST301306@AXE.HUMBOLDT.EDU
Subject: To Drop or Not to Drop

From:   HSUVAX::WAR2         12-MAY-1994 16:57:39.94
To:     HIST301306
CC:
Subj:   bigbomb

From:   HIST301306    6-MAY-1994 16:42  6-MAY-1994 16:42:00.00
To:     WAR2
CC:
Subj:   To Drop or Not to Drop

Hi,

        Anyone notice that U.S. war policy is that of destroying nonmilitary,
civilian targets? Discounting the White Male Establishment, who keep foaming at
the mouth about saving 'American boys', it doesn't seem logical to kill
hundreds of thousands of noncombatants to terminate a war. Am I making any
sense? Look at WW2 bombing policy. Was it mostly aimed at military targets?
Maybe. But a hell of a lot was intended to "demoralize the citizenry". That
means killing them. The firebombings of Japanese cities, German cities (Dresden,
Hamburg, etc.), the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were all DELIBERATELY aimed
at civilian targets---'collateral damage' in Gulf War lingo. It's just like in
Panama, Vietnam, Iraq, and countless other "Just Causes" and "Good Wars". You
can't rationally justify it, but if you let Ruling Class apologists like Henry
Stimson or George Bush do your thinking for you, then it's easy to "feel proud
to be an American".   --Hoorah! Hoorah!--

                                                                -Dylan

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 May 1994 20:04:09 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: To Drop or Not to Drop ... Dylan.  :-)

Was there an earthquake near a zoo, somewhere, folks?  :-)

Well, Dylan, I am pleased to tell you that we have a *West
  Point* history instructor on this list (by the name of
  Conrad Crane) who has just authored a book *defending*
  U.S. bombing policy,
                       and I am confident he will be able
  and eager to answer your every concern.  :-)

Incidentally, you aren't one of those ... who opposed our
  defense of the Indochinese and are now responsible for
  our desertion of them and the GENOCIDE which resulted,
  are you?  (OK.  I didn't think so.  :-)  )

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 03:06:59 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVSDS.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: To Drop or Not to Drop

>         Anyone notice that U.S. war policy is that of destroying nonmilitary,
> civilian targets? Discounting the White Male Establishment, who keep foaming at
> the mouth about saving 'American boys', it doesn't seem logical to kill
> hundreds of thousands of noncombatants to terminate a war. Am I making any
> sense? Look at WW2 bombing policy. Was it mostly aimed at military targets?
> Maybe. But a hell of a lot was intended to "demoralize the citizenry". That
> means killing them. The firebombings of Japanese cities, German cities (Dresden,
> Hamburg, etc.), the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were all DELIBERATELY aimed
> at civilian targets---'collateral damage' in Gulf War lingo. It's just like in
> Panama, Vietnam, Iraq, and countless other "Just Causes" and "Good Wars". You
> can't rationally justify it, but if you let Ruling Class apologists like Henry
> Stimson or George Bush do your thinking for you, then it's easy to "feel proud
> to be an American".   --Hoorah! Hoorah!--

I don't know whether we should actually reply to such claims -- common
sense tells me that it is a waste of time to talk to conspiracy
theorists. Nevertheless...

It is certainly true that the US has bombed civilians at certain times,
especially during WWII. But it is not very clear if there was ever a
consensus in the US goverment to do this. Stimson insisted that the US
should and would only bomb military targets. Nevertheless, the USAAF could
freely admit that it policy in bombing Japan was to destroy the main
cities, not leaving one stone upon another. And while the USAAF in Europe
concentrated more on precision bombing, it did participate in attacks on
cities. Stimson seems not have approved this, but there was little that
he could do about it. He did rescue Kyoto from nuclear destruction, not
because of its population, but because of its art treasures...

It is important to remember that this was not the result of a deliberate
decision to kill civilians. But I do not consider it unlikely, in the
psychology of wartime, that there would have been widespread support for
such decision in the allied populations, had the subject ever been raised;
anything to end and win the war. For a long period, boming was to only
way to hit the Germans back.  (Likewise, if the killing of Iraqi civilans
was more or less accepted during the Gulf War, this had more to do with
the fact that the US population values the life of one American higher
than that of hundred Iraqi citizens, than with the moral standards of
George Bush.)

Rather, this bombing policy came to be as a consequence of the limitations
of WWII bombing. It simply was almost impossible for the average bomber
crew to hit a 'small' target such as a factory or bridge.  The destruction
of such targets would involve numerous attacks, heavy losses, and only a
very small percentage of bombs would actually hit the target. Cities are
large and vulnerable targets; they became the aiming point for most most
bombs more by default than by decision. You are quite right that the
'destruction of the morale' was an euphemism for the killing of
civilians. Such things are all too easy to justify --- after all, the
worker in a war factory is just as important to the war effort as a
soldier on the battlefield. General Le May justified the fire-bombing of
Japanese cities by pointing out that many people were producing small
items at home.

After WWII it was acknowledged that the effects this city-bombing had on
the enemy war effort had been overestimated. In general, this kind of
bombing is considered ineffective.

Off the topic of this list: A lot of 'carpet-bombing' was done in Vietnam,
primarily intended to hit factories and ports, but many of these bombs
must have hit civilians. In Panama and Iraq, all bombing was intended for
military targets. Of course civilians were hit; some as a result of bad
intelligence, some because they just happened to be at the wrong place at
the wrong time, and probably most because the bombs missed their real
target. (Despite all videos shown on CNN, most bombs dropped in this war
were 'dumb', unguided weapons.) The civilian damage was of course (and you
can hardly blame them for it) over-published by the government of Iraq,
and mis-interpreted by journalists.

The single most important fact about war journalism is that most
journalists know very little about wars, and that their conclusions are
very unreliable --- they are prone to repeat what some other journalist
dreamed up after he saw a Pentagon video. Identifying a KC-135 as a
'bomber' can be forgiven, but sometimes their errors are more serious.
Here in Belgium one journalist concluded from the damaged houses in
Baghdad that the USAF had 'area-bombed' the city -- probably she had never
seen a picture of Berlin in 1945. Also in the other direction: A rather
large number of journalists has forgotten, or has never known, all about
the politics, strategy and tactics of the Gulf War, and is know praising
smart bombs as the answer to the problems of the world, beginning in
Bosnia, Somalia, Ruanda, Sudan, and a few other places.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 May 1994 18:47:45 +0000
From:    Julian E Gomez <jeg@APPLE.COM>
Subject: Re: TRIV Colorization

>Whilst I have no problems with the preservation of WW-II films to
>prevent their being lost forever, why can't they re-print them in
>B&W? Why must it be color? Why can't they present both versions
>to the public, so we can have our choice???

They have. The public won't pay for B&W. The public WILL pay for colorized
B&W films. You don't think Ted Turner is colorizing films out of the
goodness of his heart, do you?



"I was a precocious child and obviously destined to be a scientist."

        Dr. Julian "a tribble took it" Gomez
        Apple Computer, Inc.  408/862-1289 or 996-1010
        jeg@apple.com  julian.g@applelink.apple.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 May 1994 22:48:56 EDT
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor,
         Marist Coll" <JZML@MARISTB.BITNET>
Subject: Re: To Drop or Not to Drop

>
>        Anyone notice that U.S. war policy is that of destroying nonmilitary,
>civilian targets? Discounting the White Male Establishment, who keep foaming at

Hitler was nothing without the German people behind him. Demoralize
them and you begin to win the war. England survived the first two
years of the war precisely because their morale was strong. Churchill
spent a great deal of time and energy bucking up British morale.

>the mouth about saving 'American boys', it doesn't seem logical to kill
>hundreds of thousands of noncombatants to terminate a war. Am I making any
>sense? Look at WW2 bombing policy. Was it mostly aimed at military tar ets?

No you are not making sense. Japan was ready to fight to the last
man, woman and child...to make the allies pay in blood for every inch
of Japanese soil we stepped on if we invaded...until the A-Bombs
were dropped. If you were in the Pacific theater instead of safe at
home writing nonsense about white male power establishments (sic)
you would have been damned glad the war was brought to a speedy end.


>Stimson or George Bush do your thinking for you, then it's easy to "feel proud
>to be an American".   --Hoorah! Hoorah!--

And who does your thinking for you? Have you actually read any history,
or are you just spouting what some college professor* has spoon fed you
from the trough of political correctness?
I hope you appreciate that our right to exchange these views right
here, right now was paid for in the blood of those "American Boys"
and I applaud any action that brought WWII to a quicker end.

 *Not that there is anything wrong with teaching in College (see below!)

Jonah Triebwasser
Adjunct Instructor
Marist College
Dyson Building (Adult Education)
Poughkeepsie, New York12601
Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
E-Mail: jzml@maristb.marist.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 May 1994 22:58:36 EDT
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor,
         Marist Coll" <JZML@MARISTB.BITNET>
Subject: Re[2]: To Drop or Not to Drop

>target. (Despite all videos shown on CNN, most bombs dropped in this war
>were 'dumb', unguided weapons.) The civilian damage was of course (and you

Emanuel's post reminds me of a conversation I had during the Gulf War
with my late father, a much decorated bombardier in WWII
with 25+ missions over Germany and other fun places in Europe. I asked
him if he had seen on CNN one of the smart bombs fly right through the
window of a building (as seen through the nose camera.) The Old Man
was not impressed and said that his crew did that routinely! When
I expressed some doubt he said "Look, we dropped so many bombs that one
must have gone through a window somewhere!"

Jonah Triebwasser
Adjunct Instructor
Marist College
Dyson Building (Adult Education)
Poughkeepsie, New York12601
Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
E-Mail: jzml@maristb.marist.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 May 1994 20:11:45 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: To Drop or Not to Drop

You make excellent points, Emmanuel.
        Something that often strikes me in viewing commentary or this list
is the selective amnesia of some people. There's endless 'compassion" for
or then-enemies, yet scarcely a thought or mention given to the suffering
of the victims of German bombing raids. Virtually every major city in
Europe had already been bombed ruthlessly by the Luftwaffe, with considerable
relish and efficiency, long before the RAF and USAAF were able to declare
"pay-back time". Bombing their cities was nothing more than a case of
"he
who sows the wind, must reap the whirlwind".

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 11 May 1994 to 12 May 1994
*************************************************

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Status: O

There are 34 messages totalling 1109 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. ADMIN: Flamebait alert (was: To Drop or not...) (2)
  2. To Drop or Not to Drop (4)
  3. INF: USN Chronology 05-13-94 (2)
  4. INF: USAAF 13-15 MAY 44
  5. colorization (2)
  6. Needs Help (2)
  7. TRIV Colorization (5)
  8. SS Capt. Erich Priebke (2)
  9. Churchill and Seagulls (2)
 10. P-61 Black Widow
 11. D-day program
 12. Nightline/Slapson Sands -- Operation Tiger (2)
 13. GEN RE: Colorization and loss of historic film (2)
 14. US Casualties Battle of Bulge vs. Pacific
 15. Leon Degrelle
 16. WEAP: P-61
 17. Grandfather's unit
 18. Movie Monkeying
 19. Op. Tiger and/or quality of boot! - 'Takers?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 00:26:48 -0400
From:    Joe Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: ADMIN: Flamebait alert (was: To Drop or not...)

As far as I can tell, this Dylan person is not a member of the mailing
list, and as such, I will assume that he intentionally posted in order
to bait list-members.  Please ignore this bozo.

I should mention that there are two entities from AXE.HUMBOLDT.EDU.  One
is Steve Fox who has contributed a great deal to this list (definitely
gives one the feel for the range of individuals associated with the same
organization -- Steve being the apex, Dylan the nadir) and the other is
"WAR2" belonging to Carey Stephens.  This WAR2 may actually be an internal
mail alias for that site.  I hope Carey Stephens can clarify what this
account truly is.  Thanks.
--
Joe Barone, WWII-L owner
m1b@ssd.ray.com
(Why do these anal-retentive types post so late in the day that I have
to deal with this garbage at midnight?!)

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 May 1994 22:45:17 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: To Drop or Not to Drop

Jonah...
        "the trough of political correctness".
*Love it!*
:-)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 01:24:13 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@CCLINK.LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 05-13-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
05/13 Sat. Naval land-based and Army aircraft stage heavy
           bombing attack on Japanese installations at Jaluit
           Atoll, Marshall Islands; attack continues on 14 May.
            Japanese submarine sunk:
             RO-501 (ex German U-1224), by destroyer escort
              FRANCIS M. ROBINSON (DE-220), mid-Atlantic area,
              18 d. 08' N., 33 d. 13' W.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 06:52:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: INF: USAAF 13-15 MAY 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
SATURDAY, 13 MAY 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  SBD, Douglas Dauntless
  TBF, Grumman Avenger

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 1 B-25 flies a shipping strike and strafes 2
fishing vessels.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, nearly 100 P-40s and
P-51s over the Mogaung Valley hit gun positions, bridges, support ground
forces (near Nanyaseik) and hit numerous targets of opportunity throughout
the whole valley; 12 A-36s hit positions near Maungdaw; 19 B-25s pound
several points along the road and bomb troop concentrations at Bishenpur; 30+
B-24s, B-25s, A-36s, and P-51s hit Indaw, Taungbaw and Mohnyin; and 11 B-25s
bomb Monywa.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 19 B-25s hit storage and warehouse
areas at Mangshik and Lungling, a bridge at Hsenwi, truck and tank
concentrations SW of Loyang, and town area of Lungling; 39 P-40s hit military
installations at Mengta and Tating, a village N of Kaitou bridge at Tingka
and a truck concentration at Yingyangchen.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Twentieth Air Force): 771st Bombardment Squadron
(Very Heavy), 462d Bombardment Squadron (Very Heavy), arrives at Piardoba,
India from the US with B-29s; first mission is 5 Jun.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 355: 749 bombers and 737
fighters hit targets in Germany; 12 bombers and 5 fighters are lost; they
claim 58-5-13 Luftwaffe aircraft:
  1. 289 B-17s are dispatched to hit oil targets in W Poland but clouds
force 215 to bomb Stettin and 57 to hit Stralsund; 10 bombers are lost and
81 damaged; 1 airman is KIA, 1 WIA and 88 MIA.
  2. 199 B-17s are dispatched to hit the marshalling yard at Osnabruck; 178
hit the primary and 1 bomb a target of opportunity; 1 B-17 is lost and 61
damaged; 2 airmen are WIA and 10 MIA.
  3. 261 B-24s are dispatched to hit aviation industry targets at Tutow;
228 hit the primary and 12 hit targets of opportunity; 1 B-24 is lost and 2
damaged; 1 airman is WIA and 10 MIA.
  Escort is provided by 153 P-38s, 238 P-47s and 346 P-51s; the P-47s claim
14-2-9 Luftwaffe aircraft, the P-51s claim 33-1-4; 1 P-38, 2 P-47s and 2
P-51s are lost, 1 P-47 is damaged beyond repair and 5 P-38s and 7 P-51s are
damaged; 1 pilot is WIA and 5 MIA.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 300+ B-26s and A-20s bomb airfields,
coastal defenses, railway battery and V-weapon sites in France and Belgium.
P-47s carry out dive-bombing raids on various targets.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Italy, bombers continue
interdiction in support of the ground forces. 670+ B-17s and B-24s mostly
with fighter escort, attack marshalling yards at Trento, Bronzola, Fidenza,
Piacenza, Faenza, Imola, Cesena, Modena, Parma, San Rufillo, Borgo San
Lorenzo, Castel Maggiore and Bologna and hit railroad bridges at Bolzano and
Avisio; and fighters sweep the Bologna-Modena area.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium, light and
fighter-bombers continue to attack lines of communications but devote the
main effort to support of the Allied ground forces push against the Gustav
Line (French Expeditionary Force with US Fifth Army gains a spectacular
breakthrough by a fierce assault); A-20s hit a command post; B-26s damage
Cortona, Certaldo, Signa and Montepescali bridges; B-25s blast towns in the
rear of the battleline with good results at Pastena, Pico, Vallecorsa and
Itri; and fighter-bombers carry out armed reconnaissance and scheduled
attacks against communications, road and rail traffic and gun positions along
the immediate battleline and in areas around Esperia, Pico, Sant' Oliva,
Pignataro Interamna, Arce, Fondi, Perugia, Todi, Spoleto, Terni, Orvieto,
Chiusi, Rieti and N of Rome.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-24s. staging through Eniwetok
Atoll from Kwajalein Atoll, bomb Truk Atoll during the early morning hours.
Other B-24s from Kwajalein bomb Maloelap and Jaluit Atolls, Marshall Islands.
B-25s from Engebi Island hit Ponape Island.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On Bougainville Island, 50+
P-39s and P-40s attack piers at Ratsua, Porton, Chabai, and Tarlena; 30+
other fighter-bombers hit various targets, including a supply area SE of
Bonis, the town of Chabai, a village near Ibu, and huts and villages along
the Numa Numa trail; 3 B-25s hit coastal guns at Hahela Mission. On New
Britain Island, 21 B-25s and 40+ P-39s, P-40s, and P-38s pound supply areas
at Talili Bay. Fighter sweeps over N New Britain and New Ireland Islands
continue; many targets of opportunity are strafed.
  370th, 371st, 372d and 424th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), 307th
Bombardment Group (Heavy), move from Munda, New Georgia Island, Solomon
Islands and Guadalcanal Island (424th Bomb Squadron) to Los Negros Island
with B-24s.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, B-24s hit
dispersal areas on Jaspen Island, supply areas and AA guns at Bosnik and
airfields at Sorido, Namber and near the Moemi River; B-24s and B-25s hit
airfields in the Wakde-Maffin-Sawar-Arare area; 200+ fighter-bombers, A-20s,
and B-25s thoroughly pound airfields, bridges, fuel dumps, vehicles,
villages, AA guns, and supply areas in the Wewak-Hansa Bay area.
  89th Bombardment Squadron (Light), 3d Bombardment Group (Light), moves
from Nadzab to Hollandia, New Guinea with A-20s.

SUNDAY, 14 MAY 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 12 P-38s hit Tiddim road at
Tonzang, causing a roadblock; 11 P-40s hit a bridge and road at Kazu and
railroad shed at Myitkyina; 25 B-25s and P-51s hit troop positions at Hopin;
Meiktila and Heho Airfields are hit by 20+ P-51s and P-38s; the fighters
claim 4 aircraft downed in combat.
  528th Fighter-Bomber Squadron, 311th Fighter-Bomber Group, moves from
Dinjan, India to Tingkawk Sakan, Burma with P-51s.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 60 P-40s and P-51s hit trucks at
Yoyang, river shipping, boxcars, and trucks at Pailochi and Sienning and
a storage area at Shayang; 20 other P-40s bomb and strafe towns near Mamien
Pass, Pingkai and areas around Mengta and Tating; 6 Japanese bombers hit
Kienow, rendering the airfield temporarily unusable.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 435th Fighter Squadron, 479th
Fighter Group, arrives at Wattisham, England from the US with P-38Js; first
mission is 26 May.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 404th Fighter Squadron, 371st
Fighter Group, stops operating from Ibsley, England with P-47s and returns to
base at Bisterne.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Just over 700 bombers attack
targets in Italy; B-17s hit marshalling yards at Ferrara and Mantua and an
air depot at Piacenza; B-24s hit Vicenza marshalling yard and air depots at
Piacenza and Reggio Emilia; fighters fly 170+ sorties in escort; 48 P-38s
strafe Aviano and Villaorba airfields.
  HQ 52d Fighter Group and 4th and 5th Fighter Squadrons move from Corsica to
Madna Airfield, Italy with P-51s.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, support for the Allied
ground assault into the Gustav Line continues as aircraft hit at lines of
communications N and NW of Rome and blast targets in the immediate battle
area; medium bombers claim hits on bridges, bridge approaches, and viaducts
at Chiani, Marsciano, Monte Molino. Castiglione d'Orcia, San Giovanni
Valdarno, Poggibonsi, Tabianello and Arezzo; A-20s pound command posts in the
battle area; fighter-bombers hit stations, tracks, roads, town areas,
bridges, gun positions and targets of opportunity in the immediate battle
area and in or near Esperia, Terni, Narni, Itri, Terracina, Perugia, Chiusi,
Orvieto, San Giovanni Valdarno, Maranola and other locations N of Rome.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): 53 B-24s from Kwajalein Atoll
and 43 B-25s from Makin Island join US Navy (USN) aircraft in pounding Jaluit
Atoll.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 23
B-25s bomb Tobera Airstrip; 44 fighter-bombers pound supply and personnel
areas at Vunakanau; P-39s and P-40s strafe targets in N and E Gazelle
Peninsula, and fighter patrols over Rabaul area attack several targets of
opportunity. In the Buka-Bougainville Island area, 40+ P-39s and P-40s bomb
Hangan, Tsirogei, Tokiparo, a pier at Kessa Plantation, and near Ibu.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, B-24s bomb
Bosnik supply areas and Sorido runway; in the Wakde-Sawar-Maffin Bay area,
villages and AA positions are pounded by B-24s and B-25s; fighter-bombers,
A-20s, B-24s and B-25s maintain strikes against airfields, bridges, trucks,
villages, and other targets in the Wewak-Hansa Bay area.

MONDAY, 15 MAY 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 19 B-25s pound targets of
opportunity along the Tiddim road; 20+ B-25s and fighter-bombers hit gun
positions at Hopin and the airfield at Myitkyina; 17 P-38s attack Heho and
Kangaung Airfield, claiming 15 aircraft destroyed, most of them in the air; 7
B-24s bomb Myitkyina, Kalewa and Mandalay.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): B-25s strike Kengluang bridge, Siam and hit
installations near Wan Pa-Hsa, Burma. P-40s strafe troops near Pingkai,
Burma, and along Mamien Pass and in the Mengta area of China.
  92d Fighter Squadron, 81st Fighter Group, moves from Karachi, India to
Kwanghan, China with P-47s; first mission is 1 Jun.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 356: 166 bombers and 104
fighters hit V-weapon sites in France with 1 fighter lost; 38 of 58 B-17s
bomb Marquise/Mimoyecques with 5 B-17s damaged; 90 of 108 B-24s bomb
Siracourt with 8 B-24s damaged; escort is provided by 104 P-51s with 1 lost
(pilot is MIA).
  Mission 357: 3 of 3 B-17s drop 1.1 million leaflets on 10 towns in
Belgium and France; 1 B-17 crash lands on returning to base, 1 airman is
KIA, 3 WIA.
  5 B-24s are dispatched on CARPETBAGGER operations.
  HQ 479th Fighter Group and 434th and 436th Fighter Squadrons arrive at
Wattisham, England from the US with P-38Js; first mission is 26 May.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, 45 A-20s and B-26s bomb
airfields at Creil and Evreux/Fauville and Somain marshalling yard; 300+
others are forced to abandon missions because of thick clouds.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Weather cancels all operations
except fighter a sweep over the Toulon-Marseille, France area.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium and light bombers
again hit communications lines N and NW of the front while fighter-bombers in
close support of the Allied ground assault through the Gustav Line blast gun
positions, motor transport, ammunition supplies, bridges, rolling stock and
other military targets in the battle area; medium and light bombers also hit
harbors and vessels along coasts at Piombino, Talamone, Portoferraio and
Ancona.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): Operations are limited to photo
reconnaissance of Jaluit Atoll from Kwajalein Atoll.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On Bougainville Island, 24
B-25s and 40+ P-40s, P-38s, and P-39s, along with TBFs and SBDs, pound the
area N of Muguai and hit the Maika area between Muguai and Ebery's Lease;
40+ fighters on sweeps over Bougainville and Shortland Islands, Solomon
Islands, attack AA positions, trucks and huts at several locations including
the Kieta, Cape Friendship and Chabai areas. On New Britain Island, Allied
fighter sweeps continue over the Rabaul area; several targets of opportunity,
including a concentration of barges in Keravia Bay, are hit.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, the Wewak-
Hansa Bay area is again hit by A-20s, B-24s and fighter-bombers; B-24s and
B-25s attack numerous targets in the Wakde-Sawar-Sarmi-Maffin Bay areas and
on Biak Island. Thirteenth Air Task Force B-24s from Los Negros Island bomb
supply and bivouac areas on Mariaon and Tagaulap Islands and AA guns on
Woleai and Paliau Islands, all in Woleai Atoll.
  HQ 475th Fighter Group and 431st, 432d and 433d Fighter Squadrons move
from Nadzab to Hollandia, New Guinea with P-38s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 11:43:10 MET
From:    Ireneusz Jakobik <SCUD@PLSZUS11.BITNET>
Subject: Re: colorization

Just wait for a color version of a "Shindler's List" :)
Irek.
P.S. "Look at that guy! He's eating gray banana!" - Wayne from "Wonder
      Years" while watching B&W TV.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 07:13:43 -0400
From:    Kevin Kamphaus <kamphaus@PETSYS.AE.GE.COM>
Subject: Needs Help

I saw this on the genealogy discussion group list and thought some of the very
knowledgeable people on this list may be able to help.

Begin text.....


I know nothing about Genealogy so please pardon my ignorance.
Could anyone tell me the best way to try and trace someone who was an RAF
pilot based in Scotland during WW2. Is there some sort of database somewhere.
Any help/advice will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
--
Paul Porcelli
Technical Programmer
Dept of Aerospace Engineering
University of Glasgow
E-Mail: gnaa38@aero.gla.ac.uk


End text.....


Thanks,

Kevin Kamphaus
kamphaus@petsys.ae.ge.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 08:14:11 EDT
From:    MNHAD007@SIVM.SI.EDU
Subject: To Drop or Not to Drop

I think what we may want to remember here is that war itself is immoral and
also that there is also only one objective in war and that is to win.
Grant knew this, Sherman andd Patton as well knew that winning is everything.
The only reason that we acknowledge atrocities is because we have "The Moral
Sense"  Those who may have trouble with my line of thought here may want to
reread "The Mysterious Stranger" by Mark Twain.
Am I being blunt well..... So sue me!   :)     I don't have time to argue
thw consequences of non combatants being in harms way.  IMHO its stupid.

Have a great weekend all!I will be in the Shenandoah catching Smallmouth!

H. A. Kurt Luginbyhl
Scientific Computer Specialist
National Museum of Natural History
Washington D.C. 20560

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 08:23:13 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: TRIV Colorization

On Thu, 12 May 1994 08:30:29 -0400 Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs. said:
>Whilst I have no problems with the preservation of WW-II films to
>prevent their being lost forever, why can't they re-print them in
>B&W? Why must it be color? Why can't they present both versions
>to the public, so we can have our choice???

They are.  AMC does not show any colorized films; it does show WWII films
from time to time.  Otherwise, the public has spoken:  it wants colorized
films, and colorized films it shall have.  If you want a *real* cause,
bitch about the lousy trimming of films to fit the lousy aspect ratio of
your TV.  IMHO, not showing all "letterbox" films on the tube is an infinitely
more serious offense than colorization, but it's only after 40 years that
it has finally become an issue.

ken koester
maint2@ers.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 07:30:51 -0500
From:    Michael D Wallick <msmdw@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: SS Capt. Erich Priebke

Erich Priebke, who was interviewed by Sam Donaldson on ABC's Primetime
Live, has been placed under house arrest by Argentine federal police.
He has suffered from depression since admitting that he participated in
the massacre of 335 Italian civilians in the Ardeatine Caves in Rome.
The Italian authorities have signed extradition orders for Priebke.
According to Primetime Live, the Argentine government will turn Priebke
over to Italy as soon as his papers are in order.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 13:50:20 +0100
From:    "H.G. Henry" <hgh10@CUS.CAM.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Needs Help

> I know nothing about Genealogy so please pardon my ignorance.
> Could anyone tell me the best way to try and trace someone who was an RAF
> pilot based in Scotland during WW2. Is there some sort of database somewhere.
> Any help/advice will be greatly appreciated.
> Thanks in advance.

May I suggest that you contact the Public Record Office, Kew, London.
They have the perssonel records of all RAF members.

Hugh Henry
St John's College, Cambridge U, UK

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 13:59:48 +0100
From:    "H.G. Henry" <hgh10@CUS.CAM.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: To Drop or Not to Drop

This issue has been covered in the standard texts so I don't think much
is left to discuss. When nations are at total war they will use what ever
means necessary to win, without endangering themselves (This is why gas
was not used in WWII). Thus when the Bomb was ready it was used
immediately. Estimates for the invasion of mainland Japan were a million
casualties. There was never any discussion of the moral implications of
its use. If the war had not been going well with Germany, and the Allies
had had the bomb, there is no doubt they would have used it on a German
city. We all know that more civilians died in the fire bombings of such
cities as Dresden, then at Hiroshima or Nagasaki.

Hugh Henry
St John's College, Cambridge U, UK

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 08:09:06 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Churchill and Seagulls

Hello, Sue!


> This may be a silly question but, in a history class a couple yrs.
> ago I read or was told by prof. the legend that Churchill was
> involved in a scheme to train seagulls to, ah, delicately put, "dirty"
> periscopes of German subs.  Could this possibly be true?  I am
> intrigued. I hope my ignorance isn't showing too badly.


    I haven't heard of that one, and would doubt that it is true. I
would like to know the source for this. Did he give one or did anyone
ask?

    Terry



Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 08:17:39 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: P-61 Black Widow

Hello, Emmanuel, Aldo, Peter and others!

Here goes with the last installment on the P-61A and the beginning of
comments on the P-61B.


In the Pacific, aircraft of the 6th NFS were also field modified with
four .50 caliber machine guns being mounted in the turret location
fixed to fire forward under the control of the pilot. The guns were
given a standard turret cover and looked identical to a standard P-
61A with a turret.


                               Specifications

                               P-61A Black Widow

Wingspan: 66 feet

Length: 48 feet 10 inches

Height: 14 feet 2 inches

Empty Weight: 20,965 pounds

Maximum Weight: 32,400 pounds

Powerplants: two 2000 hp Pratt and Whitney R-2800 10/65 radial engines

Armament: four 20mm cannon and (when turret installed) four .50
caliber machine guns.

                  Performance

Maximum Speed: 372 mph.

Service Ceiling: 34,000 feet

Range: 1210 miles

Crew:  3


                   P-61B

During early 1944, a new and more powerful Airborne Intercept (AI)
radar, the SCR-720C, became available for installation on the P-61.
The new radar had an increased range of nearly 100 miles and a
clearer image. Since the SCR-720C was larger than the earlier SCR-
720A used in the P-61A, it was necessary to modify the Black Widow's
nose section to house the new radar. As a result, the Army designated
the variant of the Black Widow as the P-61B.

More later or on Monday.

Terry






Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 09:20:18 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: To Drop or Not to Drop

> No you are not making sense. Japan was ready to fight to the last
> man, woman and child...to make the allies pay in blood for every inch
> of Japanese soil we stepped on if we invaded...until the A-Bombs
> were dropped. If you were in the Pacific theater instead of safe at
> home writing nonsense about white male power establishments (sic)
> you would have been damned glad the war was brought to a speedy end.

If he'd been a Korean living under the Japanese occupation, as some of my
friends and acquaintances have been, he'd likely have a different opinion too.
Something on the order of, "TWO bombs?  ONLY two bombs?  Why ONLY TWO bombs?
Why did you go so EASY on the Japanese...?"

>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 09:56:28 EDT
From:    S214000 <S214@NMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: D-day program

NNS300.  A&E Production "Eye on History:  D-Day" Airs May 13
WASHINGTON (NNS) -- Film maker Lou Reda, who previously produced
the A&E film "Death Tide at Tarawa," has created another
documentary with the aid of the Navy-Marine Corps World War II
Commemorative Committee.
     The Arts and Entertainment Network will air "Eye on History:
D-Day" May 18 at 10 p.m. EDT and features on camera accounts from
veterans and historians.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 10:02:11 -0400
From:    Robert Hanks <rhanks@EPAS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject: Re: Churchill and Seagulls

Churchill, of course, was quite keen on exploiting new forms of
technology. Yet while his judgement was often unsound on matters of naval
strategy, it seems rather far-fetched that he would treat this rumoured
seagull scheme seriously. Martin Gilbert would be the source to check on
this. For Churchill on technology and strategy, see also: Tuvia Ben Moshe,
"Churchill's Strategic Conception during the First World War", Journal of
Strategic Studies Vol. 12(1). March 1989. However, crazy schemes like this
did emenate from the public during the First World War. For academic
sources on these schemes, see: Holger Herwig's book Luxury Fleet (2 or 3
relevant pages) and Lee Kennett's article:  "Military Inventions and
Popular Involvement" in War and Society, Vol. 3, #2, September 1985.

On Thu, 12 May 1994, Sue Hattabaugh, Valparaiso University wrote:

> This may be a silly question but, in a history class a couple yrs.
> ago I read or was told by prof. the legend that Churchill was
> involved in a scheme to train seagulls to, ah, delicately put, "dirty"
> periscopes of German subs.  Could this possibly be true?  I am
> intrigued. I hope my ignorance isn't showing too badly.
> Thanks,
> Sue
> shattabaugh@exodus.valpo.edu
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 07:00:46 PST
From:    "Jones, Scott T." <sjones@CCLINK.LOGICON.COM>
Subject: Re: SS Capt. Erich Priebke

     Michael Wallick wrote...

     "Erich Priebke, who was interviewed by Sam Donaldson on ABC's
     Primetime Live, has been placed under house arrest by Argentine
     federal police. He has suffered from depression since admitting that
     he participated in the massacre of 335 Italian civilians in the
     Ardeatine Caves in Rome."


     - He's depressed about it NOW???!!!! Where has he been for the last 50
     years, working for an Italian orphanage??

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 09:48:45 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: colorization

> Just wait for a color version of a "Shindler's List" :)

Oof.  :-)

> Irek.
> P.S. "Look at that guy! He's eating gray banana!" - Wayne from "Wonder
>       Years" while watching B&W TV.

It is my personal opinion that if Ted Turner can colorize classic
B&W films, it is our right to force the DE-colorization of his cable
channels, such as Headline News, CNN, TBS, etc... :-)

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 10:53:02 -0400
From:    Emery Ford <eford@DELPHI.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Nightline/Slapson Sands -- Operation Tiger

Hello folks!
        Tonight on Nightline's Friday Night Special they will discuss
the disaster of Slapson Sands/ Operation TIger as a rehearsal for D-Day.

        Thought you all might want to know.
        --Emery

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 10:58:17 -0400
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: TRIV Colorization

Ken Koester writes:
> ... If you want a *real* cause,
> bitch about the lousy trimming of films to fit the lousy aspect ratio of
> your TV.  IMHO, not showing all "letterbox" films on the tube is an infinitely
> more serious offense than colorization, but it's only after 40 years that
> it has finally become an issue.

        From what I've read, this has been an issue for less than 40 years
because at one time movies and TV had the same aspect ratio.  (I believe
television was *designed* to have the aspect ratio of movies at the time.)
It was only after the movie industry perceived TV as a threat did they change
the ratio to offer something that TV couldn't provide.  For example, one does
not lose any of the picture of "Casablanca" when shown on TV because the
aspect ratio is the same.  I think the advent of CinemaScope (early 1960s?)
really changed things.  For some reason, people started complaining only
after the proliferation of VCRs.

        Concerning colorized movies, turning your TV's color down doesn't
give the exact same picture because the colorization process also screws
around with the brightness and contrast of the picture.

        I have a newspaper clipping from a few years ago about the Library
of Congress and its then newly-created National Film Registry.  The NFR's
purpose is to select movies that are "culturally, historically, or
esthetically significant" for preservation.  The NFR was created as part
of the National Film Preservation Act, which called for nameing 25 important
movies annuallu for three years to the registry.  The Library of Congress
will obtain a high-quality copy of the original version of each registry
film to add to its collection of more than 75,000 film and TV titles dating
from the 19th century.  The first 25 movies were:

        The Best Years of Our Lives, 1946
        Casablanca, 1942
        Citizen Kane, 1941
        The Crowd, 1928
        Dr. Strangelove; or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying
           and Love the Bomb, 1964
        The General, 1927
        Gone With the Wind, 1939
        The Grapes of Wrath, 1940
        High Noon, 1952
        Intolerance, 1916
        The Learning Tree, 1969
        The Maltese Falcon, 1941
        Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, 1939
        Modern Times, 1936
        Nanook of the North, 1922
        On the Waterfront, 1954
        The Searchers, 1956
        Singin' in the Rain, 1952
        Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, 1937
        Some Like it Hot, 1959
        Star Wars, 1977
        Sunrise, 1927
        Sunset Boulevard, 1950
        Vertigo, 1958
        The Wizard of Oz, 1939

        I admit that this is probably going far off-topic but I'm sure the
list owner won't mind this one time!  :-)
--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
Don't fool around with the women -- their husbands carry
guns!  And don't forget the penalty for looting is death!

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 10:34:57 -0500
From:    "Sidney W. Kitchel" <kitchel@OCTOPUS.DPSI.COM>
Subject: GEN RE: Colorization and loss of historic film

Steven Pudlo comments:
>Whilst I have no problems with the preservation of WW-II films to
>prevent their being lost forever, why can't they re-print them in
>B&W? Why must it be color? Why can't they present both versions
>to the public, so we can have our choice???

        I started this thread because I was outraged that _The Longest
Day_ had been colorized. My understanding is that _TLD_ was made in
black & white to allow inclusion of actual WWII footage. I think it is
quite presumptious of anyone (even if they are Ted Turner) to colorize
documenting footage.
        Old color film can be preserved by transfering the single
color print to three b&w prints holding the brightness information for
blue, red and green wavelengths. One would assume that important older
footage could also be digitized and sharpened by removing some of the
"noise" introduced by aging chemicals.
        As chance would have it, last night my wife and I were
watching Bob Ballard's National Geographic video on _The Lost Ships of
Guadalcanal_. It contains some historic footage that was quite
interesting and that I had never seen before. Some of it was shot by
Thayer Soule on Guadalcanal and some was taken on the ships. Are there
U.S. DOD efforts to preserve WWII historical footage? How about in the
UK and other WWII participants?? How about in Japan? Some of the most
interesting sequences in _The Lost Ships..._ appeared to be Japanese
Army film.

                                                        --Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel           kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 11:49:04 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <sep@TVSS2.COMMNET.EDU>
Subject: Re: TRIV Colorization

What! Ben-Hur is not on the list???
                                                :-)Steve

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 12:40:12 -0400
From:    Emery Ford <eford@DELPHI.UMD.EDU>
Subject: US Casualties Battle of Bulge vs. Pacific

        Hello folks,

        Is it true that there were more US casualties in the Battle of the
Bulge than US casualties in the entire Pacific theatre during WWII?

        Thanks,
                --Curious Em

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 12:43:56 EDT
From:    Richard Kaplan <kaplanr@CLP2.CLPGH.ORG>
Subject: Leon Degrelle

The May 2nd issue of Newsweek has end piece by George Will discussing Facism.
He mentions Degrelle passing away, and talks some about Zhirinovsky.  There is
also a picture of Degrelle a German uniform, though I don't see SS tabs on the
collar, or a death's head on the forage cap.

                                        Richard Kaplan
                                        Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 12:38:01 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: TRIV Colorization

On Fri, 13 May 1994 10:58:17 -0400 Barone said:
>Ken Koester writes:
>> ... If you want a *real* cause,
>> bitch about the lousy trimming of films to fit the lousy aspect ratio of
>> your TV.  IMHO, not showing all "letterbox" films on the tube is an
>infinitely
>> more serious offense than colorization, but it's only after 40 years that
>> it has finally become an issue.
>
>        From what I've read, this has been an issue for less than 40 years
>because at one time movies and TV had the same aspect ratio.  (I believe
>television was *designed* to have the aspect ratio of movies at the time.)
>It was only after the movie industry perceived TV as a threat did they change
>the ratio to offer something that TV couldn't provide.  For example, one does
>not lose any of the picture of "Casablanca" when shown on TV because the
>aspect ratio is the same.  I think the advent of CinemaScope (early 1960s?)
>really changed things.  For some reason, people started complaining only
>after the proliferation of VCRs.

Umm, I don't see how that can possibly work:  35mm is in the ratio of 2:3
(v:h) & I'm sure TV has never worked like that, although CinemaScope & its
offspring make it a lot worse.  I suspect one simply isn't noticing the
loss in earlier films--after all, we so rarely get to see them as
projections any more.  At any rate, here's a brand new one you can add to
your list of complaints:  picture compression.  You run the film faster
but run the sound through a pitch altering device to preserve the octaves.
You can get 25% speedup that way in some films that don't conveniently
fit the 2 hour-minus-commercials TV form.

ken koester
maint2@ers.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 13:00:54 EDT
From:    Mike Long <MLONG@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>
Subject: WEAP: P-61

Dr. Moore, Dennis Sparks, Irek, anybody...

Somehow I've blown away all of Dr. Moore's great posts on the P-61.
I'd been saving them all but somehow destroyed or lost the file.
Damn Friday 13th. If someone has a comprehensive version of the data
I would really appreciate it.

Dr. Moore, this IS GOOD STUFF, keep it coming.

Thanks,
Michael Long
UNIVERSITY OF CONNECTICUT
196 AUDITORIUM ROAD, U-138    |   BITNET: MLONG@UCONNVM.BITNET
STORRS, CONNECTICUT, USA      | INTERNET: MLONG@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU
                   06269-3138 |    PHONE: (203) 486-1352

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 13:17:51 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: Nightline/Slapson Sands -- Operation Tiger

>
> Hello folks!
>         Tonight on Nightline's Friday Night Special they will discuss
> the disaster of Slapson Sands/ Operation TIger as a rehearsal for D-Day.

Minor correction:  SlapTon Sands, rather than SlapSon Sands.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 12:53:52 -0500
From:    Greg Rutzen <RUTZENG@VMS.CSD.MU.EDU>
Subject: Grandfather's unit

Did anyone happen to serve in HQ Co., 3rd Bn., 394th Infantry?  My grandfather
served in this unit and was killed in action on March 3, 1945.  His name was
Pfc. Edwin W. Bockbrader.  I know very little about him, but would like to know
much more.  Thank you.

Greg Rutzen
rutzeng@vms.csd.mu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 13:58:16 EST
From:    rick robinson <LIBRARY@KNOX-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Movie Monkeying

========================================================================
Umm, I don't see how that can possibly work:  35mm is in the ratio of 2:3
(v:h) & I'm sure TV has never worked like that, although CinemaScope & its
offspring make it a lot worse.  I suspect one simply isn't noticing the
loss in earlier films--after all, we so rarely get to see them as
projections any more.  At any rate, here's a brand new one you can add to
your list of complaints:  picture compression.  You run the film faster
but run the sound through a pitch altering device to preserve the octaves.
You can get 25% speedup that way in some films that don't conveniently
fit the 2 hour-minus-commercials TV form.

ken koester
maint2@ers.bitnet
========================================================================

I can live with/without letterboxing; colorizing isn't the end of
  the world (quite); and compression (as long as they don't get
  carried away with it) hasn't yet driven me to homicide.

HOWEVER--- The choice practice of indiscriminate chopping of scenes
   etc., to make a piece fit the television time frame (and this
   does not limit itself to motion pictures) has already cost me
   one television set (combat boot throught the picture tube).
   This practice out to be declared a crime against humanity.

In reality, I believe broadcasters have missed the point completely,
   (and in the process, have assumed that the public in general are
   seriously stupid) and believe no one will 'notice the omission'.
   I think they could garner higher audiences by accomodating the
   <ENTIRE> production piece, instead of trying to see how many
   commercials they can stuff into a two hour time block (hasn't
   anyone told them that Guiness no longer accepts that as a valid
   world record?).

SOAPBOX MODE off


===>>> KARAOKE-- Japanese for tone-deaf drunk with a microphone <<<===

Rick Robinson/KD4GNK
Tape Librarian, DOIM
Fort Knox, Kentucky   40121-5000     (502) 624-8645
LIBRARY@KNOX-EMH1.ARMY.MIL
ROBINSR@IGLOU.COM

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 09:43:13 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET>
Subject: Re: TRIV Colorization

If "the public" will pay for colorized films, but not classics in B&W,
says a lot about "the public" doesn't it...

Kinda confirms my suspicions about them...

George Bauer
U.S.A.:  BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 09:47:38 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: Flamebait alert (was: To Drop or not...)

Thanks for your comment about the bozo.

My personal opinion is that such postings should be responded to privately,
ideally by bombarding those who would inflame, and keeping the comments
OFF the list.

George Bauer
U.S.A.:  BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 15:07:45 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Op. Tiger and/or quality of boot! - 'Takers?

Speaking of Training. In my service I had been housed in both old and
new barracks down in Ft. Benning, GA.. The old ones were easiest to clean;
you didn't have to kill yourself since they always looked a mess. But
as I attended ABN School in newer barracks ("Class #6! - Blacks Hats Make
Us Sick!" - our motto. "Oops. Must've pissed'em right off" - 'other motto)
I discovered the meaning of clean. I also figured that boot must've been
very different knowing that you were going into a world conflict during
a time before P.C., law suits against the federal government,... when
training casualties were expected. Any stories?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Wild, LAN Mgr.  Father of 1.5             Voice:          (401) 792-2611
ACC - Lippitt - URI  American Legion Post 102. FAX:            (401) 792-5479
Kingston, RI  02881                            Bitnet:           AWild@URIACC
                                               Internet: AWild@URIACC.URI.EDU
Murphy's Mother's axioms:
 - Only errors exist.
 - One person's error is another person's data.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 14:44:31 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN RE: Colorization and loss of historic film

>         As chance would have it, last night my wife and I were
> watching Bob Ballard's National Geographic video on _The Lost Ships of
> Guadalcanal_. It contains some historic footage that was quite
> interesting and that I had never seen before. Some of it was shot by
> Thayer Soule on Guadalcanal and some was taken on the ships. Are there
> U.S. DOD efforts to preserve WWII historical footage? How about in the
> UK and other WWII participants?? How about in Japan? Some of the most
> interesting sequences in _The Lost Ships..._ appeared to be Japanese
> Army film.

Ouch.

Remember the scene at the end of the first Indiana Jones movie when the
Ark of the Covenent was being stored in that warehouse that went on and
on and on and on...?

I'm firmly convinced that was, in actuality, the film archive maintained
by the Air Force.  That one guy pushing the box along is also the only
person working on the storage and preservation of the archive.

In other words, yes... There is an effort to preserve the old footage,
but like any other entity, the DoD is finding itself without the funding
or manpower to preserve it.  Hollywood films are deteriorating into
blobs of plastic-like material and they don't have nearly the same amount
of film as the military.

A lot of film has already been lost to entropy and a lot more will be lost
to time.  While there is a concerted effort to preserve important footage,
much of the really _interesting_, yet less important stuff, is being
relegated to the "back burner" and may never get a chance to be
preserved.

We've been trying to locate a piece of specific footage (We know what it
is, where it was taken, approximately when it was shot) which is _known_
to be housed within the archives, but in the past 12 months, it has not
been able to be located.

I can't even imagine the costs of trying to preserve all that footage, much
less the time required...

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 20:16:19 -0600
From:    JOHN WRIGHT <WRIGHTJD@CNSVAX.UWEC.EDU>
Subject: Re: INF: USN Chronology 05-13-94

From:   IN%"WRIGHTJ@UWSTOUT.EDU"  "John D. Wright" 22-APR-1994 10:48:18.37
To:     IN%"wrightjd@CNSVAX.UWEC.EDU"
CC:

  ****************************************************************
  *  JOHN D. WRIGHT                    Phone 715 232-1607        *
  *  Department of Business              Fax 715 232-5004        *
  *  University of Wisconsin--Stout Internet WRIGHTJ@UWSTOUT.EDU *
  *  Menomonie, WI 54751                     WRIGHTJD@UWEC.EDU   *
  *  ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   *
  *  Remember--No matter where you go--there you are.--B. Banzai *
  *                                                              *
  ****************************************************************

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 12 May 1994 to 13 May 1994
*************************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 13 May 1994 to 14 May 1994
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There are 7 messages totalling 312 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. reply (4)
  2. ARC: German Antiguerrilla Operations in the Balkans (1941-1944)
  3. TRIV: Hitler's bad feet
  4. NOST: 50 years ago this week

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Date:    Sat, 14 May 1994 00:06:39 -0400
From:    Joe Canepa <GREYCAT@DELPHI.COM>
Subject: reply

         Re: To drop or not to drop

         An important distinction seems to lost in comparisons
         between the tactics used and morality in WWII and in
         the Gulf War or Panama.

         World War II was an effort to defeat racist right-wing regimes
         engaged in genocide in a path towards world domination.
         To stop these effort extreme measures had to be used,
         including the bombing of civilian populations. Not a
         happy choice, but the alternative: the systematic extermination
         of groups of innocents was much worse.

         This country's role, as an intervenor, was to this country's
         credit and those who participated can stand with any group
         in the history of man as persons of principle and persons`
         possessing the highest moral standards.

         Panama and Iraq were no Third Reichs. There was no genocide in
         Panama. Panama did not threaten its neighbors. The genocide
         in Iraq, comparable to that in Syria or to the British
         military in India in 20's, was not the same as Hitler's.
         Iraq's real crime was attempting to control oil.

         Panama's crime was?

         The "collateral damage" of 7,000 civilians dead in Panama and
         200,000 civilians brings little glory to the perpetrators and
         shame to those who stood by without protest. Where was the
         religious right? Is abortion an issue and the killing of say
         a one year old by a smart bomb or burnt to death to be ignored?
         Where are the bar associations when a foreign national is brought
         by force to our courts, has his assets frozen so as to limit his
         legal defense and has the attorney-client conversations bugged
         by the government?

         Where is the press when the Kuwait ambassador's daughter
         gives widely disseminated horror stories of alleged Iraqi
         atrocities, when she was quite safe in Washington and acting
         with the advice and assistance of Hill and Knowlton?

         This government armed Iraq and Panama. This government paid
         Noriega substantial amounts and was thus his sponsor. Saddam
         Hussien received no objection from our ambassador two days
         before his invasion of Kuwait.

         Panama and Iraq were orchestrations by propagandists. If
         anyone man could be held responsible it must be George Bush.

         This is ironic as Bush was one of those who risked his life
         and voluntarily fought the Fascists.

         An accidental after-effect of the WW-II was the evolution
         of the intelligence community into an annual 30 billion
         dollar operation with a 300 billion dollar military base.
         Its thinking that means had no importance only the end
         result, is the same thinking as that which fueled Hitler.

         Bush was well schooled in this thinking, even to the
         extent of ignoring his oath of office to uphold
         the constitution. This was a great dishonor to those
         who fought because the United States was free and subject
         to the rule of law, and wished that others could have
         similar protrection.

         Now the drums are beaten to invader Haiti. What will be
         an acceptable level of "collateral damage" in Haiti? The
         answer is zero, although I am quite confident that neither
         our politicians, press, or clergy will ever voice a similar
         opinion. The only issue at stake in Haiti is American pride;
         not worth a single non-combatant's life.

         The Haitian people have the responsibility to bring democracy
         to themselves. Aristede should attempt to gain his power back
         via his own people not via foreign invaders.

         Haiti is not another Third Reich. If this country must see
         "action" for its military, is it not time to disarm? If
         the 30 billion dollar bureaucracy cannot dispose of an
         unpopular penny-anti Haitian military junta, is what the
         spy recently said, the intelligence community is
         really a "self-serving sham", true?


         Joe Canepa

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 22:35:57 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: reply

"Genocide by the British in India..."
?
Surely you jest.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 14 May 1994 08:44:18 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: reply

>
>          Re: To drop or not to drop
>
>          An important distinction seems to lost in comparisons
>          between the tactics used and morality in WWII and in
>          the Gulf War or Panama.

To be honest with you, the only difference which is apparently IMPORTANT to
SOME people is that the Soviet Union was in mortal danger.  THAT justifies
ANY "defensive" action taken, to SOME people.

>          World War II was an effort to defeat racist right-wing regimes
>          engaged in genocide in a path towards world domination.

To SOME people the only important part was that they were "right-wing" regimes.
When they were allied to Stalin, there was no reason to be concerned about
them....

>          To stop these effort extreme measures had to be used,
>          including the bombing of civilian populations. Not a
>          happy choice, but the alternative: the systematic extermination
>          of groups of innocents was much worse.

Then you believe that the Soviet Union should have been bombed to stop their
systematic destruction of Ukrainian and Islamic culture?

>          Panama and Iraq were no Third Reichs. There was no genocide in
>          Panama. Panama did not threaten its neighbors. The genocide
>          in Iraq, comparable to that in Syria or to the British
>          military in India in 20's, was not the same as Hitler's.
>          Iraq's real crime was attempting to control oil.

"Genocide in Iraq"?  I was unaware that it was ever stated, implied or even
demonstrated by action that it was a policy to ELIMINATE or even substantially
LESSEN the population of Iraq.

Sydney Allinson has already mentioned it, but I will again: Britain's
domination was unjust and even cruel, but to call it genocide is a term used in
ignorance.  Compared to what the Japanese did in China, the Raj was practically
benevolent rule of BRITAIN by INDIA.

Iraq's attempt to contol OTHER PEOPLE'S oil is akin to the lesson learned by
basic trainee at Ft. Knox who fired a practice law with the rear of the tube
pressed against his shoulder.  It can best be summarized by the quote, "I'll
bet he doesn't do THAT again".

>          Panama's crime was?
>
Panama AND the United States' crime was to put Manuel Noriega into power.  The
Panamanians weren't able to correct their role in the fiasco, so we did.

>          The "collateral damage" of 7,000 civilians dead in Panama and

>From whence does the "7,000" figure derive?  Ramsey Clark?  You might as well
quote Alfred Rosenberg on Judaica.

>          Where is the press when the Kuwait ambassador's daughter
>          gives widely disseminated horror stories of alleged Iraqi
>          atrocities, when she was quite safe in Washington and acting
>          with the advice and assistance of Hill and Knowlton?

Probably in the same place they were when the British were shipping munitions
on the Lusitania, Walter Duranty was reporting on the idyllic conditions in
the Soviet Union during collectivization and the purges, and Stalin was
deporting the Volga Tatars.

>          This government armed Iraq and Panama. This government paid
>          Noriega substantial amounts and was thus his sponsor. Saddam
>          Hussien received no objection from our ambassador two days
>          before his invasion of Kuwait.
>
Please cite SPECIFIC weapons which were provided to Iraq.  Please use
descriptive terms, such as "M113A1 armored personnel carrier", and "M16A1
rifle".  The only weapons shipments of which I've ever seen ANY documentation
were a small quantity of HANDGUNS under a law enforcement assistance program.
This is from "Smallarms Today" by Ezell.

>          An accidental after-effect of the WW-II was the evolution
>          of the intelligence community into an annual 30 billion
>          dollar operation with a 300 billion dollar military base.

It was obviously a RETROACTIVE evolution, since the Soviet "organs of state
security" had been there already, and for twenty years in the bargain.

>          Its thinking that means had no importance only the end
>          result, is the same thinking as that which fueled Hitler.
>
And the Soviet Union from 1917 until 1992.

>          Bush was well schooled in this thinking, even to the
>          extent of ignoring his oath of office to uphold
>          the constitution. This was a great dishonor to those
>          who fought because the United States was free and subject
>          to the rule of law, and wished that others could have
>          similar protrection.
>
It's a good thing that Clinton isn't like that... sorry that was the BATF
wanting to do a warrantless search and burn my home to the ground.  I'll
have to be going soon.

>          Now the drums are beaten to invader Haiti. What will be
>          an acceptable level of "collateral damage" in Haiti? The
>          answer is zero, although I am quite confident that neither
>          our politicians, press, or clergy will ever voice a similar
>          opinion. The only issue at stake in Haiti is American pride;
>          not worth a single non-combatant's life.
>
So what about Raoul Cedras do you think makes him a good leader and all around
humanitarian?

>          The Haitian people have the responsibility to bring democracy
>          to themselves. Aristede should attempt to gain his power back
>          via his own people not via foreign invaders.
>
An interesting concept.  The Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto had the responsibility
to defend themselves from German genocide.  "Fortunately", Stalin and the Red
Army took your attitude and allowed them to stand on their own two feet....

>          Haiti is not another Third Reich. If this country must see

It's a miniature Third Reich run by Himmler.  He was into "voodoo" also....

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 14 May 1994 08:20:55 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: reply

Another of the enduring myths created by leftist college "educators" is
that the Nazi regime was "right wing".
NAZI is an abbreviation of National *Socialist* German Workers Party.
Its fundamental credo was class-hatred, directed at aristocrats, intellectuals,
and the prosperous middle-class. Scarcely the charicteristics of the Right.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 14 May 1994 08:54:56 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: ARC: German Antiguerrilla Operations in the Balkans (1941-1944)

Thank you, Larry, for loading the description of this booklet.
        I have a question...
Recently I wrote to the GPO Washington, requesting a catalog of available
military history publications.
In reply, they sent me an eight-page brochure describing about a dozen
books. All fine-looking, but I was a little disappointed that there was
not a much more detailed listing. I am particularly interested in books
and reports which were published 1945-1960.
Do you know of any source of a listing of such military publications
put out by the GPO?
For instance, whick list of publications would have described the Anti-
Guerilla book you posted?
I would be most grateful for any suggestions.
BTW: I do hope that because you no longer have to cope withe the day-to-day
s