Subject: WWII-L Digest - 16 May 1994 to 17 May 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 18 May 1994 00:00:41 -0400

There are 47 messages totalling 1438 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Nazis - left or ...
  2. Netiquette
  3. D-day Re-enactment Notice (3)
  4. Air Power in Southwest Pacific (2)
  5. MUSSOLINI (3)
  6. Nazis - left or right? (4)
  7. INF: USAAF 17 MAY 44
  8. INF: USN Chronology 05-17-94
  9. Post Traumatic Stress
 10. Bombing (3)
 11. [TRIV] Police Dogs and Victory Cabbages (5)
 12. INFO ME 410 and B-24 (2)
 13. Air Power in Southwest Pacific (Self-Sealing Tanks) (2)
 14. Bombing of Rails to Camps (2)
 15. Massacre of Italians near Rome
 16. Churchill and Seagulls and mock battleships
 17. INF:  394th Inf Regt (99th Inf Div) WW2
 18. Mussolini
 19. Airpower comparisons ... and VERDICT (2)
 20. GEN: RE: reply (3)
 21. SCI (Psyops WWII) (2)
 22. REF: Claim about Pacfic/Battle of the Bulge causulaties
 23. Guam (2)
 24. ARC: A byrd in the internet is worth...
 25. Nazis Right or Left

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 May 1994 00:21:04 EDT
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Nazis - left or ...

I know 4 former members of the Nazi party during WWII (including one from the
Hungarian Arrow Cross party).  Today, they are all right wing republicans.

Matthew Gajkowski

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 16 May 1994 23:52:03 -0500
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Netiquette

In message World War II Discussion List writes:
> I am not the Owner of this list, so perhaps I should not be commenting
> here, but I'll take the risk of offending to air a pet peeve of mine
> concerning messages replying to previous messages.

In the same boat, I also risk the same... :-)

> It is the habit of many people to copy the ENTIRE previous message, then
> merely append a single line or two.  It seems to me that this is
> inappropriate at best, because:

[Reasonable notes deleted for brevity per request... :-)]

While I agree wholeheartedly that it makes sense to delete as much text as
possible, I caution people when they _do_ do this.

I have seen several examples, every week in fact, where the desire to delete
(or not include at all!) is excessive.  If you were in a closed environment
where new readers do not come in unexpectedly and daily, a few "cue" words
are acceptable.

However, you have readers coming and going all the time as well as existing
readers which select on certain messages, at least for a while.

When trimming text, it is important to leave as much as necessary not only to
"remind" the regular reader of the conversation, but also to make the first
time reader aware of what the discussion topic is.  In these cases, it is
more important to include text than it is to delete it, even at the cost of
some mail or news readers.

The standard net response would be to "upgrade your mailer" in regards to
other issues, such as screen wrap and performance, which we know is not
always acceptable or rational.  At least you're not having to deal with
32 columns.  :-)

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 May 1994 00:54:26 EDT
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: D-day Re-enactment Notice

On June 4, 1994 in Chicago IL at the Montrose Wilson beach there will be a
D-day reactment.

Present will be;   4 LCMS(landing craft), 5 DUKWS, 1 "Higgins boat".
     2 B-25's  3 P-51s    1L2B  1 C47 4 SNJ Trainers

 USS Estonian Guided Missile Frigate some other ships and possibly 1 French
warship

Tanks and other military vehicles

American and British troops will be arriving on the beach from landing craft
after an aerial and naval bombardment (simulated with $20,000 of
pyrotechnics).  The troops arrival will be countered by the German Heer in
prepared beach positions.

The re-enactors will be using the orginal weapons of the time firing blanks
(if the state of Illinois allows there will be machine guns) The re-enactors
will be dressed in authentic uniforms.  There will also be displays of WWII
equipment.

For all of those who only read about WWII this will give you a taste of what
it might have been like to be there.  An event like this will add much to
your knowledge of WWII.

Matthew Gajkowski

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 May 1994 02:24:11 -0600
From:    Tony Schuler <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Air Power in Southwest Pacific

Emmanuel,

I have seen "self sealing tanks" tonight and tonight only. I did not realize
(although it makes sense) that US aircraft had self sealing tanks. How was
this accomplished?

Thanks,

Tony Schuler
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 May 1994 10:01:31 +0200
From:    Stefano Ruberto <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MUSSOLINI

On Mon, 16 May 1994, Stephen Baldwin wrote:

> >       Was Benito Mussolini the greatest politic of this century???
> No.
> (Otherwise he wouldn't have got himself strung up on a butcher's hook.
>
> smb

But Mussolini saved Italy, in the twenteen years, from the economical,
political and social crisis.
The mistake of war was determinated by the idea that the conflict would
have been last a few time.
He wanted to do a Great Italy.

~RRN~

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 May 1994 10:51:02 MET-1
From:    Bognar Attila <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Nazis - left or right?

Jon writes:
>
> According to The 25 Point Program of the NSDAP,
>
> 11. We demand the abolition of income unearned by work.
> 12. ...We demand ruthless confiscation of all war profits.
> 13. We demand nationalization of all trusts.
> 16. We demand...immediate communalization of department stores....
> 22. We demand the abolition of a paid army and formation of a national
> peoples army.
> 25. ...We demand the creation of a strong central state power.
>
> Admittedly, this was in 1920 but still shows the socialist orientation
> of the Nazis.
  Socialist is the word that should
> be focused on in the NSDAP.  Any one else have a comment?

As far as I know Hitler joined the DAP (Deutcher Arbeiter Partei -
sp?) German Workers Party which he later turned into NSDAP. I believe
he had two reasons to add Nazional Sozialistische (sp?) to the name:

1., he wanted to emphasise the kinship of his movement to the already
long lasting Austrian nazi movement;

2., it was a part of his general strategy namely to promise something
to everybody so that he can get more and more supporters for the
party from various classes of the society.

On the other hand, again as far as I know, there's no sign of Hitler's
taking the 25 point Program seriously at any time. He agreed issuing
it because a program was needed but he did not refer to it in any of
his speeches. I'll check my sources on this but what is definitely
sure that the national was a lot more important to him than the
social. Not to speak about socialism. BTW if I remember well he was
put this question once. And he said the word socialist meant social
to him. I presume he was talking about the welfare of the working
class.
No doubt he was an extreem nationalist and that, to my knowledge, can
not be comprised with the notion of socialism very easily.

All the best,

Attila  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 May 1994 07:04:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USAAF 17 MAY 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
WEDNESDAY, 17 MAY 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 18 B-25s bomb Chauk oil
installations while 20 P-38s hit Kangaung Airfield; B-25s and fighter-bombers
fly 90 sorties against Mogaung Valley targets, hitting targets of opportunity
at Kazu and Namti and a bridge at Kamaing and supporting ground forces in the
Myitkyina area.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, P-40s support ground forces at
Mamien Pass, hit Japanese positions at Tatangtzu, damage a bridge and several
trucks at Shweli, Burma, strafe troops at Luchiangpa and bomb and strafe
a horse pack train near Tengchung; 7 B-25s and 13 P-40s pound the Shayang
barracks area and hit troops and vehicles NE of Shasi.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 30th Photographic Reconnaissance
Squadron, 10th Photographic Group (Reconnaissance), moves from Chalgrove to
Middle Wallop, England with F-5s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 450+ bombers hit targets in
Italy and Yugoslavia; the B-17s bomb the marshalling yard at Ancona, Italy
and troop concentrations at Bihac, Yugoslavia; the B-24s bomb the port areas
at San Stefano al Mare, Piombino, Portoferraio and Orbetello, Italy; P-38s
strafe airfields at Ghedi, Villafranca di Verona, Modena, Forli and Reggio
Emilia, Italy while other fighters fly 130+ sorties of escort duty.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, operations continue in
support of the Allied ground assault; B-26s bomb road bridges in the
immediate battle area with generally fair results; roads are blocked in
Frosinone; B-25s bomb the landing ground at Viterbo while A-20s bomb a
command post near Valmontone and drop supplies to French troops on Monte
Revole; fighter-bombers hit railroads, bridges, trucks, and gun positions
behind and along the battle front with good results, destroying or severely
damaging 6 bridges, creating road blocks in the towns of Vallecorsa and Pico,
blasting gun emplacements at Cassino and hitting numerous targets of
opportunity.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-24s from Kwajalein Atoll bomb
Wake Island while Engebi Island-based B-25s hit Ponape Island.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 25
B-25s bomb the airfield at Tobera while 43 P-39s, P-40s and P-38s, in
conjunction with 40+ US Navy (USN) dive bombers, blast the Vunakanau area;
fighters on sweeps hit a Nubai River bridge and strafe targets on Gazelle
Peninsula. 39 fighter-bombers hit numerous targets in Bougainville Island
area, including the Muguai area, a bridge N of Numa Numa, barges at Banin
Harbor and the area around Ratsua.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, Allied forces
land without opposition near Arare after a naval bombardment; B-24s and B-25s
hit targets in the general vicinity at Sawar, Sarmi and the mouth of the Orai
River; 100+ B-24s, with P-38 escort, pound AA positions at Bosnik, Sorido and
Mokmer, and supply areas and airfield on Noemfoor Island; 120+ fighter-
bombers, A-20s, B-25s and B-24s continue to hit the Wewak-Hansa Bay area; and
HQ 49th Fighter Group moves from Finschhafen to Hollandia.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 May 1994 04:32:36 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 05-17-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
05/17 Wed. Army troops land at Wakde-Toem area, New Guinea,
           preceded by cruiser and destroyer bombardment (Rear
           Adm. R. S. Berkey).
           Allied task force (Adm. J. F. Somerville, RN)
           including United States carrier SARATOGA (CV-3) bombs
           enemy shipping and harbor installations at Surabaya,
           Java.
           Destroyers bombard Japanese defenses on Eniben
           Island, Maloelap Atoll in the Marshall Islands.
            German submarine sunk:
             U-616, by destroyers GLEAVES (DD-423), HILARY P.
              JONES (DD-427), ELLYSON (DD0454), HAMBLETON (DD-
              455), RODMAN (DD-456), EMMONS (DD0457), MACOMB
              (458), NIELDS (DD-616), and British aircraft,
              western Mediterranean area,
              36 d. 46' N., 00 d. 52' E.

Comment by TPK:  Boy, that poor U-Boat captain must have wondered what he
did wrong that day...  Does anyone know more about how or why EIGHT
destroyers plus a plane were in on one U-Boat kill?

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 May 1994 07:35:00 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Air Power in Southwest Pacific

Weren't American pilots in early WW-II told "Do not attempt to dogfight
the Zero"?

I recall reading that the zero managed to set some prop records that
still stand today. Have I been reading gibberish AGAIN!!?

                                                        Steve

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - [email-masked] |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 May 1994 07:29:37 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Post Traumatic Stress

>every veteran fights his war for the rest of his life.
>
>Cheers - Dan     <[email-masked]>

I had this acute perception, Dan, that violence is one of the easiest
things to learn. Evolution would tune a brain for it. You know the
gaulkers around a car wreck; they're there for their education. And
television execs understand it better than we. I have never been to
war, but found my training entirely consuming. We've got to hope and
work so that something good comes out of such memories.

'Non-reticent, -Al

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Wild, LAN Mgr.  Father of 1.5             Voice:          (401) 792-2611
ACC - Lippitt - URI  American Legion Post 102. FAX:            (401) 792-5479
Kingston, RI  02881                            Bitnet:           AWild@URIACC
                                               Internet: [email-masked]
Murphy's Mother's axioms:
 - Only errors exist.
 - One person's error is another person's data.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 May 1994 07:58:34 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Bombing

On Mon, 16 May 1994 17:39:01 -0400 Christopher Morton said:
>> >Yeah, but it accomplished enough other objectives that I'm not picking
>> >cotton without pay in Alabama, for Afrika Korps uniforms.
>>
>> There was never any danger of that, with or without strategic bombing.
>> It didn't win the war, and it couldn't have lost it, either.
>
>I wouldn't be willing to risk it at ANY level.  BOMB! :)

You wouldn't be of the "nuke 'em till they glow, then shoot 'em in the
dark school," by any chance, would you?  (-:

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 May 1994 07:52:47 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [TRIV] Police Dogs and Victory Cabbages

>On Mon, 16 May 1994, Steven VEST wrote:
>
>> Folks:
>>
>>      With all of the "heavy" subjects we've been discussing, here's
>> something of a bit less importance.   It has been the habit of the
>> English and Americans to change the names of obviously German named
>> objects during the World Wars.  Sauerkraut became Victory Cabbage, German
>> Shepherds became Police Dogs.  At one time I'd heard the name that was
>> adopted for the Dachshund but I've since forgotten that name.  Does
>> anybody remember that name?  Also what other things were renamed during
>> the war years?  Did the German Measles become the European Spots etc.?
>>

I've allways thought that American cowboys more aptly named the Dachshund.
They were allways talling somebody to "Get a long little doggie..."

On the other hand, some things die hard. It was not till fairly recently
that I discovered that Sauerkraut was Sauerkraut. The one I allways buy
just says KRAUT, which was a rather disparging label for Germans. I remember
being told that this not too sweet food was named after the german army after
the war "SOUR KRAUT". They were so sour not only because they lost the war,
but also because they had nothing else to eat... Imagine my chagrin! I love
this new SAUERKRAUT, especially with fried SPAM!
                                                        :-))Steve
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - [email-masked] |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 May 1994 08:12:54 -0400
From:    Bob Smart <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [TRIV] Police Dogs and Victory Cabbages

> Folks:
>
>      With all of the "heavy" subjects we've been discussing, here's
> something of a bit less importance.   It has been the habit of the
> English and Americans to change the names of obviously German named
> objects during the World Wars.  Sauerkraut became Victory Cabbage, German
> Shepherds became Police Dogs.  At one time I'd heard the name that was
> adopted for the Dachshund but I've since forgotten that name.  Does
> anybody remember that name?  Also what other things were renamed during
> the war years?  Did the German Measles become the European Spots etc.?
>

I believe that renaming of 'Thing German' was done more during WW 1 than during
WW 2. I know that in Baltimore Hamburg street becam Light Street. In WW 2 the
big animosity was towards the Japanese.  I am actually somewhat surprised that
the Cherry Trees in DC were not cut down as a gesture. ( I am glad they were
not but that doesn't reduce my surprise.) I will ask my mother about
dauschhounds ( She has a Kennel and was a teenager  during WW 2) I will also
see if I can ask my Inlaws about the issue. It may be touchy, my Father inlaw
emigrated as a child from Alsace, arriving in NY in 1908, not speaking anything
but German ( He was 4 then) You couldn't tell it now though, 84 years on the
Easter shore has made sure he sounds just like all the other locals. I don't
even think he remembers any German.

Another point about the Anti-japanese sentiment- A friend of our family was a
veteran of the Pacific Campaign ( He was in Hawaii in 1941) The last time I saw
him he was still using an older RCA color TV. He refuses to buy any product
made in Japan or labeled with a Japanese brand name ( You should have heard him
when they began importing Mitsubishi cars!) Old feelings die hard.

I remember growing up in the sixties and having a Japanese-American family move
into the neighborhood for a couple years. ( They were an Army Family based at
nearby Ft Holibard) The wife had spent time in the 'relocation camps' In
looking back that was Mom's first contact with Japanese-Americans who were not
'the enemy' The boys and I were real good friends And I think Mom and their
mother were but from what little I remember about when they first moved in I
think it was touchy at first.

Bob Smart ([email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 May 1994 08:10:32 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MUSSOLINI

On Tue, 17 May 1994 10:01:31 +0200 Stefano Ruberto said:
>But Mussolini saved Italy, in the twenteen years, from the economical,
>political and social crisis.

But Italy & Italians paid a very high price for being "saved"--who's to
say that someone else wouldn't have done a better job at lower cost?
"Saving" a country by giving it a giant dose of castor oil is overrated,
IMHO; you've merely papered over the existing problems for a decade or two.

>The mistake of war was determinated by the idea that the conflict would
>have been last a few time.
>He wanted to do a Great Italy.

So?  A great country solves its problems from within, rather than adventuring
among its neighbors.  Starting wars for greed just because you think you can
get away with it is contemptible, IMHO.

ken koester
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 May 1994 14:34:37 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INFO ME 410 and B-24

On Tue, 17 May 1994, Derek Monz wrote:

> Secondly, I have a picture book on german a/c in WWII and its ays that
> the Me410 was used as a Night fighter!. I never knew this, is it true and
> if so what radar systems did it have?.

I have two sources that claim that the Me 410A-2/U2 was a nightfighter
version, equipped with Lichtenstein SN-2 radar, and armed with two MG 151
and two MK 108 cannon. One, by Bill Gunston, claims that this was an
'important' version.

I have some doubts about this. Most other sources simply don't mention
this version. The A-2 was a day 'Zerstorer' and the /U2 suffix seems only
to indicate the fitting of cannon in the bomb bay. A list of the strength
of the Luftwaffe night fighter units, in March 1944, does not mention the
Me 410 at all. I have not seen any photograph. Maybe this version remained
a prototype?

I doubt that the installation of the SN-2 radar on the Me 410 would be
very practical; the clearance between the nose and propellers looks to
small for the antenna masts of the radar.

There seems to have been some talk of building a nightfighter version in
the C-series; that had longer wings, more powerful engines, and twin-wheel
main landing gear. But no C-series aircraft were built.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 May 1994 08:05:31 CDT
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: D-day Re-enactment Notice

Me and my roomate are planning on attending this event as GI's.  If
anyone is planning on attending let me know--maybe we can get together
there.  TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 May 1994 08:55:15 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Bombing

>
> On Mon, 16 May 1994 17:39:01 -0400 Christopher Morton said:
> >> >Yeah, but it accomplished enough other objectives that I'm not picking
> >> >cotton without pay in Alabama, for Afrika Korps uniforms.
> >>
> >> There was never any danger of that, with or without strategic bombing.
> >> It didn't win the war, and it couldn't have lost it, either.
> >
> >I wouldn't be willing to risk it at ANY level.  BOMB! :)
>
> You wouldn't be of the "nuke 'em till they glow, then shoot 'em in the
> dark school," by any chance, would you?  (-:

Nah, I'm of the "Slap another magazine, in my trusty M16, all I want to see is,
bodies - bodies - bodies" school.... :)

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 May 1994 10:02:30 -0400
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Nazis - left or right?

On Mon, 16 May 1994, Jon Stevens wrote:

> 11. We demand the abolition of income unearned by work.
> 12. ...We demand ruthless confiscation of all war profits.
> 13. We demand nationalization of all trusts.
> 16. We demand...immediate communalization of department stores....
> 22. We demand the abolition of a paid army and formation of a national
> peoples army.
> 25. ...We demand the creation of a strong central state power.

They never followed this program.

> Admittedly, this was in 1920 but still shows the socialist orientation
> of the Nazis.  If they had won the war, IMHO, they probably would have
> gone much futher than these earlier points.  I think that Hitler held
> Hugenberg and other right-wingers in contempt also.  What happened to
> him after the Nazis gained power?  Hugenburg or any other right-winger
> had no place in the Nazi government.  Socialist is the word that should
> be focused on in the NSDAP.  Any one else have a comment?

With the night of the long knives, Hitler not only eliminated opposition
from the SA and Roehm, but also from Gregor Strasser and the "left-wing"
of the Nazi party. I think that most of the Nazi policies from this point
on were geared towards preparing Germany for war. They may be interpreted
as socialist, but I would label them simply as pragmatic. They also, of
course, were aimed at eliminating the Jews from German society (not
extermination--yet).

Just an aside on another note. It is not known exactly when the decision for
the Final Solution was made. Christopher Browning suggests that it was
probably during the euphoria initially following the invasion of the
Soviet Union in 1941. Scholars in this school of thought are labelled
"functionalists", believing that the decision for the Final Solution was
a 'function' of circumstances. Other Holocaust scholars (labelled
"intentionalists") such as Lucy Dawidovitz (sp?) suggest that it was made
as  early as Hitler's days in Vienna (I happen to disagree with this).
Regardless, after the
Wansee conference in Jan. 1942, it was clear that the decision had been
made to exterminate the European Jews. Thus, in answer to Emmanual's
question: yes, by May 1942 the decision had been made.
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 May 1994 10:05:52 -0400
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MUSSOLINI

On Mon, 16 May 1994, Stefano Ruberto wrote:

> Was Benito Mussolini the greatest politic of this century???
>
no

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 May 1994 08:58:05 -0500
From:    Joe Pohlmann <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Air Power in Southwest Pacific (Self-Sealing Tanks)

Tony,

    In response to your question about "self sealing tanks," usually the tanks
were coated with a layer of rubber, that obviously would expand as aviation
fuel came in contact with it.

    It sounds a little crude, but it worked.

    From what I remember seeing, it looked like this:

                        Outer Metal Casing
                        ------------------
                          Rubber Sealant
                        ------------------
                        Inner Metal Casing

Joe Pohlmann
Systems Engineer
Monsanto Port Plastics
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 May 1994 10:19:52 -0400
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Bombing of Rails to Camps

On Mon, 16 May 1994, Joshua A Fleming wrote:

>    I just watched Schindler's list a few nights ago and I believe there
> was a part in it where the Jews were wondering why the Allies did not
> bomb the railroad lines which led to the death camps.
>      Did the United States or Britain have reliable knowledge of the
> systematic genocide and if so, did we abstain from these types of attacks
> because they would have been a drain on the war effort?
>     I would be interested to hear about this.

There is a _huge_ debate over this issue. It is pretty clear that by the
time of the deportation of the Hungarian Jews, the allies did know what
was going on but chose not to bomb. There were several plans discussed
(mostly about the boming of Auschwitz), but none were acted on for
several reasons. Let me mention again that there is a great debate over
this issue but I believe that the allies were probably justified in
deciding not to bomb. The Germans had proven that they were able to
reconstruct rail lines overnight, therefore bombing them would not slow
down the extermination process for long. As for the discussions of boming
the camps, the Allies didn't have the  precision bombing capability
necessary to hit the SS barracks, Gas Chambers and Cremitoria without
wiping out the whole camp. Even if they did hit all of these targets and
thus free all of the prisoners, where would they have gone? Finally,
while I say earlier that the Allies _knew_ what was going on, I mean that
they had reports from individuals who had been in Auschwitz and other
sources. Given the unprecidented nature of the Holocaust, however, it is
easy to understand why they weren't sure whether or not to believe these
reports.
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 May 1994 10:22:40 -0400
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Bombing of Rails to Camps

On Mon, 16 May 1994, Sidney Allinson wrote:

> The German concetraion camps were bombed on occasion; mostly camps
> situated in Germany, that is, within bomber range. Camps in Poland were virtuall
> y unreachable by RAF/USAAF airvraft, owing to the extreme long distance,
> and the fact that Russia would not allow us facilities to land there, to
> refuel for the return flight to bases.

This is untrue. After the Allies had a foothold in Italy, they were able
to bomb Monowitz, a subcamp of Auschwitz where I.G. Farben (I think) was
set up for business. The camps in Poland were not bombed for other
reasons (see previous post).
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 May 1994 09:45:12 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Massacre of Italians near Rome

Hello, Scott!

Great to hear and read that you are back on-line.

All the best and please stay in touch.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 May 1994 09:56:03 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Nazis - left or right?

Bengt,

     You raise some good points, but controlled breeding, anti-
Christian dogma, etc., are hardly "conservative," in the classical/
international *or* American/liberal sense.

     If "right-wing" means *extremely* conservative, the NAZIs
were hardly that.  They were nationalist and socialist.  The NAZI
German economy was hardly free and open.  Totalitarianism -- of
any kind -- is NOT conservative.

Lou Coatney, Western Illinois University Library (til 30Jun94)

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 May 1994 09:57:55 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Churchill and Seagulls and mock battleships

The British mocked up a couple of ships as battleships -- rather
  convincingly, from the photographs.

Does anyone know of a case where such an effort actually *misled*
  the enemy?  :-)

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 May 1994 11:03:48 EDT
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF:  394th Inf Regt (99th Inf Div) WW2

A little while back someone posted a question about his grandfather's
unit, the 394th Inf Regt assigned to the 99th Inf Div.

Here's what I have:

394th Inf Regt
15 Nov 42  Organized at Camp Van Dorn, Mississippi
14 Sep 43  Moved to Louisiana Maneuver Area
17 Nov 43  Moved to Camp Maxey, Texas
30 Sep 44  Departed Boston Port of Embarkation
11 Oct 44  Arrived England
 1 Nov 44  Landed in France
12 Nov 44  Entered Germany, positionas along Elsenborn Ridge
16 Dec 44 - 29 Jan 45  Battle of the Bulge
10 Mar 45  Crossed Rhine River at Remagen
   Aug 45  Located in Kitzingen, Germany
20 Sep 45  Arrived Hampton Roads, Virginia
29 Sep 45  Deactivated at Camp Patrick Henry, Virginia

Campaigns:

Rhineland
Ardennes-Alsace
Central Europe

Decorations:

Presidential Unit Citation (1st Battalion cited)
     War Dept General Order #58, 1945

Belgian Fourragere (99th Inf Div cited)
     Dept of Army General order #43, 1950
     unit cited for actions in the Siegfried Line and defense at Elsenborn

Hope this helps,

Barry

Barrett F. Lowe               RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, West Point  (e-mail:  [email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 May 1994 11:14:47 -0400
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Mussolini

David Rising writes:
> On Mon, 16 May 1994, Stefano Ruberto wrote:
>> Was Benito Mussolini the greatest politic of this century???
>
> no

        This type of response is indicative of the short shrift that Italy's
role always receives.  Personally, I wouldn't mind hearing some discussion on
Mussolini's political achievements as well as his (obvious) failures.  From
my limited reading, Italy was a mess after World War I.  For being one of the
victors, this comes as a bit of a surprise.  Italy was slighted at the peace
conference, acquiring a token parcel of territory from Austria-Hungary.
Further, one of the reasons for creating the Kingdom of Croats, Serbs, and
Slovenes (Yugoslavia) was to counter Italian domination of the Adriatic.  This
is not the best way to make an ally happy.  The foci of his political career
seems to always fall on the invasion of Ethiopia, his role at Munich, and,
of course, World War II.  Remember, Mussolini came to power in 1922 and
people didn't seem to be too upset with his reign.  He created public works
projects (Rome still has the "SPQR" man-hole covers from one of his projects).
Sure, the fellow was a demagogue and ultimately ruined his country, but that
shouldn't mean that discussions should be treated lightly.  As I said, though,
my reading and knowledge are limited so I would appreciate any elaborations
from others rather than simply dismissing Mussolini and Italy out-of-hand.
Thanks.
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
As much as I like Big Joe, I don't want to spend the rest of the war
in a prison camp.  Besides which, I'm a first generation Italian.  They
would shoot me as a traitor.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 May 1994 11:28:11 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: D-day Re-enactment Notice

>Me and my roomate are planning on attending this event as GI's.  If
>anyone is planning on attending let me know--maybe we can get together
>there.  TAS

Hi Tim,... I'm running the idea past my wife (Who is 5.5 months pregnant).
           I'd like to attend, but circumstances are likely to keep us
           from going. We drove out to the tower for coffee one boring
           3 day weekend so it's not beyond our capabilities. :-)

Alan from Rhode Island

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Wild, LAN Mgr.  Father of 1.5             Voice:          (401) 792-2611
ACC - Lippitt - URI  American Legion Post 102. FAX:            (401) 792-5479
Kingston, RI  02881                            Bitnet:           AWild@URIACC
                                               Internet: [email-masked]
Murphy's Mother's axioms:
 - Only errors exist.
 - One person's error is another person's data.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 May 1994 10:47:47 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Airpower comparisons ... and VERDICT

My son -- the genius who has decided to decline attending his
  high school classes back in Juneau, because he is going to make
  all the money he needs with this Remote/Control model airplane
  V-weapon he is designing/producing/marketing -- has played his
  Microprose/soft? "Aces of the Pacific" computer game
  exhaustively.

His aerial weapon of choice is the Hayabusa, the radial-engined
  Japanese Army fighter -- and this in preference to the P-51,
  etc.!  (Of course, against B-29s ... )

Although lightly armed and unarmored, the plane's overall
  performance characteristics have endeared it to him.

Incidentally, Robert was in the top 5 (out of 90) in his high
  school science fair, with his (model) aircraft design project.
  He is using new design approaches and materials.  With his
  ModelCAD program, he does the most unorthodox things possible.

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 May 1994 11:13:25 -0500
From:    "Sidney W. Kitchel" <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN: RE: reply

Emmanuel Gustin wrote:
> Joe Canepa wrote:
>>  This government armed Iraq
>
>Because this is repeated time and time again, and I would like to know:
>what weapons did the US actually sell/send to Iraq? I had the impression
>that most of their armament had Soviet origins, with some French
>contributions.

        I'm not an expert on this part of Bush's foreign policy. But
my understanding is that when he thought Iraq was in danger of defeat
by Iran that the U.S. passed them considerable aid. It was not in direct
weapons shipments, rather it consisted in several million bucks of
"agricultural" aid. Anybody know more details?

                                                        --Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel           [email-masked], [email-masked]
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 May 1994 12:54:18 -0400
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: RE: reply

Sidney W. Kitchel writes:
>         I'm not an expert on this part of Bush's foreign policy. But
> my understanding is that when he thought Iraq was in danger of defeat
> by Iran that the U.S. passed them considerable aid. It was not in direct
> weapons shipments, rather it consisted in several million bucks of
> "agricultural" aid. Anybody know more details?

        Please move this to private email since this is not relevant to
the list.  Thanks.
--
Joe Barone, WWII-L owner
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 May 1994 13:17:11 EDT
From:    Martha Wheless <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [TRIV] Police Dogs and Victory Cabbages

Hello all,
>From my reading, I think Bob is correct that renaming of German sounding
things was done more in WWI than WWII.  I believe that dachshunds were
renamed "liberty dogs", while frankfurters were called "hot dogs." (both
in WWI.)
Nice topic for a change of pace :-)
Regards,
Martha Wheless

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 May 1994 13:19:14 EDT
From:    "Archie T. Smith" <[email-masked]>
Subject: SCI (Psyops WWII)

SCI
Questions for the list.  Did the Allied powers use psychology operations
during WWII?  If so, which theaters of operations? If both European and
Pacific, were there any differences in methodology, delivery, etc?

I am familiar with Allied disinformation such as the phantom army of Gen.
Patton but not of psychology operations similar to later military engagements.

Comments?

SCI

Archie T Smith Instructor
East Carolina University
Sociology
Brewster B-412 Greenville, NC 27858 (919) 757-6147
Bitnet: SOASMITH@ECUVM1 Internet: [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 May 1994 13:55:05 -0400
From:    QUACK <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Airpower comparisons ... and VERDICT

Wasn't this the plane that the Allies put the same octane gas in as a P-38
and took them both up to the service ceiling of the-38 and the Japanese job
left the -38 in the atmosphere?
As an aside, vandals broke into a storge area of the New England Air Museum
at Bradley International Airport this past weekend.
Destroyed were windscreens, gauges, and parts strewn around. This was a sep-
arate storage area from the main complex.
Also Dick Rutan was there Saturday night for a speech.

Ron

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 May 1994 15:09:31 EDT
From:    Robert E George <[email-masked]>
Subject: REF: Claim about Pacfic/Battle of the Bulge causulaties

> >
> > Hello, Emery!
> >
> > >
> > >         Is it true that there were more US casualties in the Battle of th
e
> > > Bulge than US casualties in the entire Pacific theatre during WWII?
> > >
>
      I remember reading an assertion to this effect in William Manchester's
 "American Caesar", his hagiographic life of General of the Army Douglas
 MacArthur.
> >     No. Total casualty figures for the US during the Battle of the
> > Buldge did not nearly come close to the total casualties suffered by
> > this country in the Pacific. The reason for that is, is that American
> > combat troops were in physical contact with the Japanese longer than
> > they were with the Germans. Thus casaulties were greater.
> >
>
     But weren't there far more U. S. troops fighting in Europe?
>
> >     I think you may claim that the Bulge cost us more casualties than
> > any single other action in WWII, but certainly not in comparison with
> > the entire Pacific Theater of Operations.
> >
> >     Hope this helps.
> >
> >     Terry
> >
> > Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
> > P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
> > fax 806-371-5370
> >
>
      At any rate, if I recall correctly Manchester's assertion, it related
 to the casualties incurred by forces directly under MacArthur's command
 during the offensive (post-Philippine) phase.

      Can somebody please post Manchester's original claim?

      Rob

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 May 1994 14:20:25 CDT
From:    Robert Hohlt <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [TRIV] Police Dogs and Victory Cabbages

Bob, today you wrote,

>...A friend of our family was a
>veteran of the Pacific Campaign ( He was in Hawaii in 1941)....

Please forgive me if you have seen my previous posts but I don't
know any Pacific campaign or Pearl Harbor vets to ask this of.

In one of my previous posts I asked for information about a band leader
named Harry Owens that was in Hawaii or maybe his music was very popular
there at the time.  Next time you have the oportunity to speak with your
family friend would you please ask him if he remembers this Harry Owens
and if his music is still available anywhere?

Thanks in advance,

Robert Hohlt, Jr.

P.S. I have asked the Smithsonian Institution and they referred me
to the Library of Congress.  Oh boy.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 May 1994 13:19:52 -0700
From:    Steve Schoenherr <[email-masked]>
Subject: Guam

Do you know that Guam was the first American territory to be occupied by
Japan in World War II.  Do you know who was the only American not captured
by the Japanese occupation force?  Do you realize that that this American
was hid by a Guamanian family on property which was seized by the U.S.
after liberation and has remained off-limits to Guamanians until this year?
 Guam is an interesting case study of the conflicting legacies of World War
II that are rearing their hoary heads in many commemorations of
"liberation".

I have upoaded to byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/submissions an
undergraduate paper on the proposed 50th anniversary commemoration of the
liberation of Guam on July 21, 1944.  The student in my history class is
Hannah Gutierrez, a native Guamanian.  The 8-page plain ASCII text paper
and 2 jpegs are in a MacIntosh Stuffit archive.  Use Stuffit Lite 3.03 to
unstuff the archive, BBEdit Lite or any word processor to read the text,
and a jpeg viewer such as JPEGView 3.21 from any Info-Mac mirror (my
favorite is metten.fenk.wau) in the directory /info-mac/grf/util.

Hannah has other illustrations and a map, mostly from the Guam Visitors
Bureau.  If there is interest, I can upload a few more jpegs to the byrd
archive which apparently has a 100k limit on submissions.

Steve Schoenherr
Associate Professor of History
University of San Diego, San Diego, CA 92110
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 18 May 1994 08:14:59 +1000
From:    "Wilber Williams, Prentice Centre" <[email-masked]>
Subject: ARC: A byrd in the internet is worth...

Larry Jewell writes -

>Byrd is accessible via FTP, gopher, or WWW. Ask you wizards or service
>provider about reaching byrd.mu.wvnet.edu.

Ummm... I'm supposed to be one of the "wizards" or "service providers"!
Can you tell me the World Wide Web URL for Byrd?

thanks,
Wilber.

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Wilber WILLIAMS                            [email-masked]      |
|Prentice Centre                            Telephone : +61 7 365 4232   |
|The University of Queensland               Facsimile : +61 7 365 4477   |
|Brisbane Qld 4072  AUSTRALIA                                            |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 May 1994 14:43:11 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [TRIV] Police Dogs and Victory Cabbages

Bob Smart...
        Askyour father-in-law... I bet *he* prefers to call
        German Shepherds, "Alsatians".
:-)
Regards.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 May 1994 14:56:23 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: SCI (Psyops WWII)

Yes, there was a very active psy-ops program by the Allies.
Setting up bogus "German" radio stations was one aspect.
There was a strong broadcast from England, of radio progams
in German, callitself "Soldaten Sender Calais"
There's one good account of Allied efforts of this type in
BLACK BOOMERANG,by Sefton Delmer.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 May 1994 19:12:08 -0500
From:    "It's but a flesh wound." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INFO ME 410 and B-24

>I doubt that the installation of the SN-2 radar on the Me 410 would be
>very practical; the clearance between the nose and propellers looks to
>small for the antenna masts of the radar.
>
>There seems to have been some talk of building a nightfighter version in
>the C-series; that had longer wings, more powerful engines, and twin-wheel
>main landing gear. But no C-series aircraft were built.
>
>Emmanuel Gustin

    ----------  End of Original Message  ----------

No, the Me 410 was used in the war, but it was used in the evening, so it
wasn't realy classified as a night fighter.  I don't remember if it had radar,
or it's specififc arament, but it was rather impresive.
        --  Mad Hatter

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 May 1994 19:25:34 -0500
From:    "It's but a flesh wound." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: RE: reply

>>Because this is repeated time and time again, and I would like to know:
>>what weapons did the US actually sell/send to Iraq? I had the impression
>>that most of their armament had Soviet origins, with some French
>>contributions.
>
>        I'm not an expert on this part of Bush's foreign policy. But
>my understanding is that when he thought Iraq was in danger of defeat
>by Iran that the U.S. passed them considerable aid. It was not in direct
>weapons shipments, rather it consisted in several million bucks of
>"agricultural" aid. Anybody know more details?
>
>                                                        --Sid
>--
>Sidney W. Kitchel           [email-masked], [email-masked]

Well, I'm not much oh an expert either, but does stinger missles, and pretty
much anything carried by hand by a Vietnam era US shoulder ring a bell?
Alot of this stuff was marked as destroied in the '80's, yea right!

        --  Mad Hatter

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 May 1994 21:11:24 -0500
From:    "Well I'm here. Now what do you want?" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Bombing

>> >I wouldn't be willing to risk it at ANY level.  BOMB! :)
>>
>> You wouldn't be of the "nuke 'em till they glow, then shoot 'em in the
>> dark school," by any chance, would you?  (-:
>
>Nah, I'm of the "Slap another magazine, in my trusty M16, all I want to see is,
>bodies - bodies - bodies" school.... :)

    ----------  End of Original Message  ----------
Brother I hear you, but give me something that is even more American, and more
forgiving than a '16 in rain, my trusty, (but not rusty) M1 carbines!!

to the tune "have you driven a f**d lately?)
Have you killed an commie lately?

        --  Mad Hatter

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 May 1994 21:13:41 -0500
From:    "Well I'm here. Now what do you want?" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Air Power in Southwest Pacific (Self-Sealing Tanks)

>Tony,
>
>    In response to your question about "self sealing tanks," usually the tanks
>were coated with a layer of rubber, that obviously would expand as aviation
>fuel came in contact with it.
>
>    It sounds a little crude, but it worked.
>
>    From what I remember seeing, it looked like this:
>
>                        Outer Metal Casing
>                        ------------------
>                          Rubber Sealant
>                        ------------------
>                        Inner Metal Casing
>
>
>Joe Pohlmann
>Systems Engineer
>Monsanto Port Plastics
>[email-masked]

    ----------  End of Original Message  ----------

from what I recal also this was the general,simple, idea, and it work rather
well, just not 100%!
        --  Mad Hatter

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 May 1994 20:32:08 -0500
From:    Lakeville Senior High <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Nazis - left or right?

I've got jump in here.  Part of the "left or right" debate is that people
collapse politcal & social freedoms with economic systems.  That's why
high school students think that the Nazis and Communists are the same
thing.  We explain the differences by drawing a box where political and
social freedoms run across the horizontal and economic system is measured
on the vertical.  This seems to work well.  (Actually, we give students a
card with a country on it and they must place themselves properly on a
huge grid we've taped on the floor).

Andy Charrier
Lakeville High School

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 May 1994 20:02:04 EDT
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Guam

Earlier, Steve Schoenherr wrote:

>Do you know that Guam was the first American territory to be occupied by
>Japan in World War II.

Yes, my mother and her family are Guamanians and she suffered through
two and a half years of the Japanese occupation.  My grandfather was
a chief petty officer in the US Navy Insular Force and was a POW for
about 6 months before the Japanese released the native Guamanians as
they tried to bring them in their "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere".
My uncle and most of the family still live on Guam.  My mother visits
about every two to three years.  As a kid, I lived there from 1969-72
when my father was stationed at the main Naval Base at Orote and he worked
as the XO for the Dental Clinic.

> Do you know who was the only American not captured
>by the Japanese occupation force?

Yes, his name was George Tweed.  Cliff Robertson starred in the movie
"No Man is an Island" about this man.

>  Do you realize that that this American
>was hid by a Guamanian family on property which was seized by the U.S.
>after liberation and has remained off-limits to Guamanians until this year?

I wouldn't exactly say seized.  The US Army Air Corps built two very large
air bases on the north end of the island to house the B-29s that were used
to bomb Japan.  There are abandoned airfields on Saipan and Tinian also.
One of them remains active to this day, Anderson Air FOrce Base which used
to be home to a wing of B-52s.  With the downsizing of the military, I do
not know for sure if these squadrons are still there. I would presume so,
since Clark Air FOrce Base in the Phillipines is now closed.  The other base,
Northwest Airbase was limited access when I lived on Guam.  It was basically
an abandoned B-29 base from WWII.

The US Navy and US Air FOrce still maintain a large presence on the island.
However, as some of the bases are consolidated, the government is turning
that land back over to the Guamanian government.

> Guam is an interesting case study of the conflicting legacies of World War
>II that are rearing their hoary heads in many commemorations of
>"liberation".

Yes, it's true, but most Guamanians I know are very proud of the service their
fathers and sons did for the US military. They are a very patriotic people.
While often the Navy and the Air Force may have taken the Guamanians for
granted, the Navy and the Air FOrce are the largest employers on the island.

I can tell you that as far as my family is concerned, they were all VERY
grateful for the liberation, even with the damage that the fierce fighting
caused. If the Japanese had stayed too much longer, many more executions
would have taken place.  My family was fortunate enough to have found a safe
place in the hills above Talafofo to hide out until the main fighting was over.

I cannot verify this, but I read somewhere that on a PER CAPITA basis, more
Guamanian soldiers were killed in Vietnam than any other state in the union.

>
>I have upoaded to byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/submissions an
>undergraduate paper on the proposed 50th anniversary commemoration of the
>liberation of Guam on July 21, 1944.  The student in my history class is
>Hannah Gutierrez, a native Guamanian.  The 8-page plain ASCII text paper
>and 2 jpegs are in a MacIntosh Stuffit archive.  Use Stuffit Lite 3.03 to
>unstuff the archive, BBEdit Lite or any word processor to read the text,
>and a jpeg viewer such as JPEGView 3.21 from any Info-Mac mirror (my
>favorite is metten.fenk.wau) in the directory /info-mac/grf/util.

Thanks, I will take a look at this. We were on Guam for the 25th Anniversary
in 1969.  That was a great time for a kid with lots of fireworks, fiestas, etc.
At the time, I was too young to understand the politics of it all, but I'm
more informed now.

My middle name is Franquez, my mother's maiden name.  My uncle runs a store
in Agana Heights.

Barry

Barrett F. Lowe               RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, West Point  (e-mail:  [email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 May 1994 22:40:45 -0500
From:    Jon Stevens <[email-masked]>
Subject: Nazis Right or Left

On Tuesday I hastily posted a few lines a couple of minutes
before I had to catch a train.  These were a few notes I had sitting near
my computer from a recent class.  I think it is obivious that the Nazis
had both leftist and rightist parts.  Thanks for the discussion
WWII List.

In _The Reichswehr and Politics 1918-1933_ Carsten says that Hindenburg
became a "substitute for the monarch" or a "royal shield" for many of the
Reichswehr officers and rightists.  The same could also be said for
Hitler.  He promised the rightists to end the "chaos" that was Weimar (ie
Bolsheviks, inflation, unstable governments etc...) by returning
the military to its foremost place in German society, rearmament, etc...  I
think this was more the reason for the appeal of Hitler to "rightists"
Without the support of the Reichswehr and conservative elements Hitler
could not have gained power and could possibly have been defeated.  The
conservative, rightist appearance of Hitler and Nazi party which hid the
totalitarian (socialist) real nature of it was necessary to gain and
maintain power until the German government was permeated by Nazis.
While Hitler was not a strict Marxist or anything like that his "statist"
ideas classify him as a socialist --  the state does everything for you,
you obey the state, and everyone is happy as long as you don't have any
independent thoughts.

Another point, extreme leftists (Communists) supported the Nazis in
elections before 1933.  I think this information can be found in the book
_THe Nazi Seizure of Power_ in an analysis of some election returns.  A
couple of people pointed out that extremism on the left and right ends
up in the same place, a totalitarian state.  Nazism was extremeism and
can not be said to be only rightist and conservative.

Didn't these rightist, conservatives try to kill Hitler in July 1944?
Didn't many people who had joined the Nazi Party before 1933, who were
middle class, conservative types, become more and more dissalusioned with
the whole mess as the real nature of the Nazis became more evident?

Usally, my motto is "you ain't learnin when yer talkin".   Sorry for this
long post but I am interested in this subject.  Thanks for letting me try
to clarify my thoughts.

Jon Stevens  --

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End of WWII-L Digest - 16 May 1994 to 17 May 1994
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