Subject: WWII-L Digest - 28 May 1994 to 29 May 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 30 May 1994 00:00:12 -0400

There are 13 messages totalling 424 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. TRV: Kelly's Heroes Redux
  2. Vet: Aussies? What Aussies?
  3. INF: USN Chronology 05-29-94
  4. NOST: 50 YEARS AGO THIS WEEK (3)
  5. GEN: FRENCH DAIRY FARMERS THREATEN D-DAY CEREMONIES
  6. GEN/MEDIA:Stalingrad Film?
  7. WWII Airbone Operations List (revised)
  8. Criteria of Greatness
  9. P-61B
 10. WEAP: Anglo-American ArmoUr deficient?
 11. Memorial Day, 1994

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Date:    Sat, 28 May 1994 23:59:50 -0400
From:    Joe Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: TRV: Kelly's Heroes Redux

Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]> writes:
> P.S. to John Holtz, re: Kelly's Heroes--  that wasn't a mock-up.  Several
> war movies shot in Yugoslavia in the '70's apparently include a real Tiger I,

        The fact that the faux Tiger can fool people with more than a
passing interest in tanks is a tribute to the fellows who did the work.
The Tigers in "Kelly's Heroes" are indeed mock-ups: simply look at the
road wheels.  The other telltale is that the turret ring is too far
forward.  The chassis are T-34s, a much more common tank in Yugoslavia.
Other mock-ups in the movie include some faux Hanomags from US M-3
half-tracks.

John Riegsecker <[email-masked]> writes:
> ... He requested 25 tons of sandbags, instead he was
> offered 2 tons of gold and 18 tons of silver.  Trout continued on patrol
> with its "ballast" and sank a 2.700 ton maru.
> ... But he had a problem as he came up one brick ($14,500.00) short.

        "Kelly's Heroes" even had the exchange rate of gold down: Crap
Game finds out that each bar is worth $16,000 on the Paris exchange.
Inflation over three war years could easily be attributed to the $1500
discrepency!
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
Crap Game: 14,000 gold bars!  Where are they?
    Kelly: In a bank...
Crap Game: In a bank?  Aren't you getting a little ambitious?
    Kelly: ...behind enemy lines.
Crap Game: Behind enemy lines... This could be the perfect crime!

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Date:    Sat, 28 May 1994 23:14:17 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Vet: Aussies? What Aussies?

> > Problem is I guess that all you yanks etc seem to forget Australia wa
> > actually involved in WWII :)

Not only the Yanks, but some (transplanted) Brits as well. Guenther
Rothenberg relates how the story of the Kokoda Trail was complete news
to him after the war. Of course, says he, he was rather busy in North
Africa and Italy during that period and had little time for reading ;-).
(Born in Germany, raised in Isreal, taught at Sandhurst, so the story
comes out in an accent you could cut with an axe.)

Larry J

[email-masked]; Co-Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU (Historical docs)
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

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Date:    Sun, 29 May 1994 01:14:27 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 05-29-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
05/29 Mon. Destroyers bombard enemy installations on northern
           coast of New Ireland.
            United States naval vessel sunk:
             Escort carrier BLOCK ISLAND (CVE-21), by submarine
              torpedo, northwest of Canary Islands,
              31 d. 13' N., 23 d. 03' W.
            United States naval vessel damaged:
             Destroyer escort BARR (DE-576), by submarine
              torpedo, northwest of Canary Islands,
              31 d. 13' N., 23 d. 03' W.
            German submarine sunk:
             U-549, by destroyer escorts ABRENS (DE-575), and
             EUGENE E. ELMORE (DE-686), by submarine torpedo,
             northwest of Canary Islands,
             31 d. 13' N., 23 d. 03' W.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

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Date:    Sun, 29 May 1994 14:27:21 +0200
From:    John Ausland <[email-masked]>
Subject: NOST: 50 YEARS AGO THIS WEEK

  Oslo, May 29.  After reading Jonah Triebwasser's list of events for this
coming week fifty years ago, I once again a left with admiration for Eisenhower.
With the weather against him and a terrible decision to be made about the
landing, he was plagued by two brilliant prima donnas, Churchill and de Gaulle.
Churchill, with his failure at Gallipoli on his conscience, wanted to play
soldier.  De Gaulle, preoccupied with politics, quarreled over who would
announce the invasion.
   In addition, Eisenhower's air commander, Leigh-Mallory, came to him at the
11th hour and questioned the whole invasion, warning that there would be
dreadful casualties.  (He later apologized to Eisenhower for adding to his
burdens.)
  But whoever said that coalition warfare is easy.
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 29 May 1994 14:47:04 +0200
From:    John Ausland <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN: FRENCH DAIRY FARMERS THREATEN D-DAY CEREMONIES

  According to the weekend International Herald Tribune, French dairy
farmers are threatening to block the road from Caen to Cherbourg on June 6.
They are unhappy over dairy plant plans to cut the prices paid them for
their milk.
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo, Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 29 May 1994 08:17:31 EST
From:    "ROBERT MARION, HISTORY DEPT." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: NOST: 50 YEARS AGO THIS WEEK

     This (Sun.) morning's NY Times Book Review Section (front page) examines a
work by Stephen Ambrose- "D-Day June 6, 1944."
     Thought it may be of interest to many of you.

 Robert L. Marion
 Indiana University
 [email-masked]

 "Si vis pacem, para bellum."

 Doctoral Student/ Balkan and Russian Studies

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 29 May 1994 11:34:41 -0400
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN/MEDIA:Stalingrad Film?

On Fri, 27 May 1994, Jones, Scott T. wrote:

>      Earlier this year there was discussion on the list about a movie about
>      the Battle for Stalingrad which was supposed to have been released in
>      Canada(?) earlier this year. Has anyone seen or heard of it's journey
>      toward the USA? Does anyone have any ideas for other methods to follow
>      to get my paws on a copy? Any help is appreciated...

It was released in Canada (Toronto--I don't know about other places) last
December. So far I haven't seen it in any video stores. It was called
_Stalingrad_ (go figure!) and produced by the same people who did _Das
Boot_. Hope this helps.
David Rising
BTW, can somebody send me the address of the listserv which runs the
Milhst-l list? I have somehow been bumped off it and I can't remember
where to send my re-subscription notice. Thanks in advance.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 29 May 1994 13:11:15 EDT
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor,
         Marist Coll" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: NOST: 50 YEARS AGO THIS WEEK

>Churchill, with his failure at Gallipoli on his conscience, wanted to play
>soldier.  De Gaulle, preoccupied with politics, quarreled over who would

John - I think WSC's desire to be in the thick of things was more than
just atonement for Gallipoli...all of his biographers, associates and
contemporaries write of his fearlessness. After all, this is the man
who wrote that there is nothing so exhilarating as being shot at without
result. WSC saw action in hot wars in two centuries. I think nothing
would have made him happier than to be the first one off of a landing
craft, cigar in mouth, walking stick in hand, to lead the march toward
Berlin! Kindest regards-

Jonah Triebwasser
Adjunct Instructor
Marist College
Dyson Building (Adult Education)
Poughkeepsie, New York12601
Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
E-Mail: [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 29 May 1994 15:01:31 -0500
From:    GEARHEART DRAKE ERICK <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WWII Airbone Operations List (revised)

  On the contrary, there are still quite a few of us who remember Lae,
Port Moresby, Buna, the Coast Watchers and so forth.  As well as the
bombing of Darwin.  The Ausie's role isn't forgotten or unappreciated. Nor
is the fact you were a lot closer to the threat of invasion than here in
the lower 48.

                                                Drake E. Gearheart
                                                History
                                                University of Kansas

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 29 May 1994 16:07:11 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Criteria of Greatness

Hello, Steve!

I may be getting myself in a real bind here, but, yes, I happen to
have access to General Hoffmann's military career. What do you need
on this officer?

Terry
----------------------------------------------------------

 > BTW a chap who I heard described as "brilliant"
> (at least as a tactician) is Max Hoffmann who was on the German general
> staff in WWI and was responsible for drawing up the plans that
> destroyed the Russians at Tannenberg...
> Does anyone know any more about him?
>
> steve baldwin
> [email-masked]
>

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

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Date:    Sun, 29 May 1994 16:34:18 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: P-61B

Hello, Aldo, Peter, Emmanuel and others!

Here goes with some more info on the P-61B. Sorry for the lapse, but
I have been out of town for a week and just returned yesterday.

Here goes:

    Normal routine for a P-61 crew was two nights on alert (you slept
during the day) and two nights off.  Since there had to be a P-61 in
the air at all times during the hours of darkness, the airborne alert
aircraft could not land until the ground alert aircraft was airborne.
Alert crews were assigned specific combat air patrol hours covering
the period of sunset to sunrise.  Crews would pre-flight their
aircraft during the late afternooon while wearing dark Red goggles.
These goggles acclimated their eyes to the dark and improved their
night vision.  A normal Combat Air Patrol usually lasted two hours
and they were usually very boring.  There were those missions,
however, that weren't.

    Captain Ernest Thomas of the 548th NFS relates one such mission:

"We were airborne on a regular CAP at 1830 and spent an
uneventful two hours.  Just as we were about to start for home at
2030, Agat 9 (Saipan GCI radar) notifited us that there wer Bogies
coming from the norht.  At about 2049, we had closed to minimum
range, but with flaps down, throttles closed, and flying less than 95
mph, I could not stay behind the Bogie.  As I overshot, Corporal Tew -
my Gunner - got a visual with his binoculars.  It was a Jap Betty
bomber.  After several tries, I still could not keep the aircraft
behind the Betty and finally stalled out.  After recovery, neither my
crew nor Agate 9 could locate the Bogie.

    Very shortly after, Agate 9 put us on another Bogie going south.
After closing to minimum range, Corporal Tew identified it as another
Betty.  I overshot this Betty three times, each time going a full 360
degrees to pick him up again.  The Betty had evidently seen us and
was trying to run as he was picking up speed.  On my fourth
intercept, the Betty was up to 19,000 feet and indicating 155 mph.
This time I closed on him and remained behind him without difficulty.
I got my visual at 1,200 feet.

    The Betty pilot apparently saw me, as he started a hard turn to
the left.  We closed to within 600 feet, where I was able to pull the
gunsight through the Betty for a deflection shot.  My first burst
(thirty-two rounds of 20MM and thirty-eight rounds of .50 caliber)
hit his left engine, which exploded immediately and burst into
flames.  I broke hard right and passed under the burning plane,
missing it by about 200 feet.  Orbiting to the right, I watched the
Betty go down.  A few seconds later, the whole sky was lit up by a
large explosion.  There was nothing where the Betty had been but a
large glow below the cloud deck.  Agate 9 vectored us back to the
base, about 95 miles away, and we pancaked on Saipan at 2235.  This
CAP had lasted over four hours."

    By the end of the Second World War, the Army Air Force had
fifteen of its sixteen night-fighter squadrons equipped with Northrop
P-61As or P-61Bs.  The last squadron to convert to the Black Widow
was the 416th NFS, which exchanged its deHavilland Mosquito NF Mk 30s
for P-61Bs during the Summer of 1945.

    It was a P-61B that scored the last kill of the Second World War.
 On the night of 14/15 August 1945, a 548th NFS P-61B named "Lady in
the Dark", flown by Lt Robert Clyde, with Lt Bruce Leford as his RO,
forced a Nakajima Ki-43 Oscar into the sea near Ie Shima.  Although
the war had officially ended at 0800 on 15 August 1945, the "Lady"
got a second kill the night of 15/16 August when Captain (Solie)
Soloman, with Lt John Scheerer as RO, forced a Ki-44 Tojo into the
Pacific.  Two kills without ever firing a shot!  The last operational
combat unit to fly the P-61 was the 68th F(AW)S, which had at least
one P-61B on strength as late as May of 1950.  Six weeks after
completing its conversion to F-82 Twin Mustangs, the unit was
involved in combat over Korea.

    What follows is some info on the FT-1/FT-1

The Northrop FT-1 was actually a P-61B redesignated by the Navy for
use by the Marine Corps.  FT-1s were a mixed bag of twelve P-61Bs
(BuNos 52750 to 52761) that were transferred to the Marine Corps
during September of 1945.  These were used to help train Marine night-
fighter crews in radar intercept tactics before they converted to the
Grumman F7F Tigercat night-fighter.  The FT-1s were unarmed, ex-
trainer aircraft from Hammer Field, California, the Army night-
fighter training base.

    Later, the aircraft were redesignated as F2T-1s.  Marine
training operations ceased on 1 May 1946, with the aircraft being
reassigned to Marine Corps Air Stations Cherry Point and El Toro.  On
31 August 1947, the last F2T-1 was retired from the Navy inventory.

    Specifications:

    NORTHROP P-61B BLACK WIDOW

    Wingspan......................66 feet
    Length........................49 feet 6 inches
    Height........................14 feet 8 inches
    Empty Weight..................27,000 pounds
    Maximum Weight................38,000 pounds
    Powerplants...................Two 2,000 hp Pratt & Whitney
                                  R-2800-65 radial engines.

    Armament......................Four 20mm cannon and four
                                  .50 caliber machine guns.

    Performance
     Maximum Speed................366 mph
     Service ceiling..............33,100 feet
     Range........................1,010 miles
    Crew..........................Two or three

    This concludes info on the P-61B. Tomorrow I will begin posting
info on the P-61C.

    Hope this has been of interest.

    More later.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 29 May 1994 16:37:32 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Anglo-American ArmoUr deficient?

Hello, Yannick!

See below for the answer to your question.

> By the way, I couldn't remember the name of the German general called "the
> fireman of the fuhrer". Does anyone know?

    Hitler's "fireman" was Field-Marshal Walter Model, the only
German field marshal buried in a soldier's cemetery.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 29 May 1994 22:31:57 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Memorial Day, 1994

For veterans everywhere and for absent friends:

               Day is done,
               Gone the Sun,
               From the land,
               From the sea,
               From the sky.

               All is well,
               Rest in peace,
               God is nigh.

Remember that some gave their all that you might have all you have.

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End of WWII-L Digest - 28 May 1994 to 29 May 1994
*************************************************