Subject: WWII-L Digest - 24 May 1994 to 25 May 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 00:01:21 -0400

There are 38 messages totalling 1319 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Criteria of Greatness
  2. mortars
  3. WEAP: Anglo-American ArmoUr deficient? (11)
  4. [INF] USAAF 25 MAY 44
  5. Media: CNN Story today (3)
  6. Re[2]: Criteria of Greatness (6)
  7. Grim Reapers
  8. Fuehrer's Fireman
  9. D-Day: Which Is It?
 10. [GEN] Computer games and simulations (2)
 11. [MEDIA] Congressional Medal of Honor
 12. The B-26 Marauder at Utah Beach
 13. Nost: What the Hell
 14. NEWS: DUTCH WWII HERO DIES
 15. NEWS:D-DAY ARTIST GOES ON DISPLAY
 16. Blitzkrieg France 1940
 17. HELP!
 18. TAC:USS Johnston in Leyete Gulf (2)
 19. US Tank Destroyers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 May 1994 08:36:58 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Criteria of Greatness

>       Steve and others...
>
>       This is an interesting vein of discussion to me.
>
>       >I guess it is not possible to get a general who is both a great
>       >tactician and also personable, having a degree of compassion, and a
>       >grasp of the politics of war.
>
>       How about Bradley or Schwarzkopf (perhaps Doenitz)?
>
>       MAJ Stephen Ingalls
>       USMA, West Point
>       FLY ARMY!

Good morning Major Ingalls....
re
>       How about Bradley or Schwarzkopf (perhaps Doenitz)?

put their case then....

I for one don't know enough of either...
It got me thinking too...if there aren't any wars, then peace time
commanders remain unknown quantities. For what its worth, I had
always equated "greatness" with tactical/strategic details. Maybe
if I had served in the army and seen life from a soldier's viewpoint,
my views would change. This is what struck me at the meeting with
Alistair Horne on Monty & D Day - I put my questions regarding
Monty's claim to greatness expecting affirmations or not on his
tactical/strategic abilities. Instead, there came from Horne,
and other comments from the (generally 2nd world war serving)
audience, much on his motivating skills, his professionalism, and
his dedication. This made me think that maybe there was more than
just good strategy/tactics. I guess, the things that must be considered
are things that the commander himself can control-there are constraints
and every battle is unique.
Any commander is constrained
- by the terrain where he finds himself
- by the quality/quantity of his troops
- by the quality/quantity of his equipment
- by the domestic political scene
...and probably more...

BTW a chap who I heard described as "brilliant"
(at least as a tactician) is Max Hoffmann who was on the German general
staff in WWI and was responsible for drawing up the plans that
destroyed the Russians at Tannenberg...
Does anyone know any more about him?

steve baldwin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 May 1994 03:36:31 -0500
From:    GEARHEART DRAKE ERICK <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: mortars

I believe they mean hit buy the mortar shell.  It's just like saying you
got hit buy a grenade or buy aircraft.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 May 1994 11:07:41 +0100
From:    Yannick FRANCOIS Bozzo the Clone Yin Yang <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Anglo-American ArmoUr deficient?

Hi all!

All this discussion remembers me of a terrible word of Zukhov (if my memory
is rigth) comparing the German and Soviet war systems:

"They had a machine of killing. We had a machine of dying. Our machine was
better than their."

Well, comparing the American and German armour, I think someone said
(although here I can't remember who - maybe Guderian) something like this
concerning the losses of Patton in near Bastogne:

"We couldn't fight against an foe replacing its equipement losses faster
than we could destroy them."

To know if one or the other was deficient, I think that comparing the
losses shold give us a good idea of the quality of the equipment. So if
someone could answer those questions:

1) How many German tanks where destroyed between June 1944 and December
1944 by ground forces in France?
1 bis) The same with Allied tanks.
2) Same question with air forces.
2 bis) The same with Allied tanks.
3) Same question with tanks only.
3 bis) The same with Allied tanks.
It would be nice to express these numbers in quantities and in percentage
of the type of troops engaged on this theater (exemple: X german tanks
destroyed of the Y on the theater, that is X/Y*100 %, by Z potantial
airplanes).

This doesn't consider the quality of the troops, but in the begining of the
chosen period there where more Allied greens and in the end more Germans,
so I think it will tend to nullify the effects of troops quality over this
period.
This will be facts, upon them everyone will be able to make up it's mind
and draw the (good) conclusions.

By the way, I couldn't remember the name of the German general called "the
fireman of the fuhrer". Does anyone know?

Bye - Yannick

<=======================================================> O         |\
< Man is a tool-using animal....Without tools he is     >    0      | |
< nothing, with tools he is all. - T. Carlyle           >      o    | |
< Knowledge itself is power. - F. Bacon                 >   ____.___|/
< An expert is one who knows more and more about less   >  /  _   _  \
< and less. - N. Butler                                 >  | / \ / \ |
< Je pense, donc je suis. - R. Descartes                >  | O_  o_  |
<=======================================================>  |    |    |
                                                           \   / \   /
                                                            \ \___/ /
                                                             \_____/

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 May 1994 07:42:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 25 MAY 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
THURSDAY, 25 MAY 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 1 Shemya Island, Aleutian Islands-based B-24
flies reconnaissance and bombing mission in the C Kurile Islands; another
B-24 aborts due to equipment failure.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 28 P-38s sweep over the Mandalay
area; 12 of them hit about 10 railroad cars near Shwebo, leaving them
burning; B-24s hit targets in the Katha area, 6 of them bombing Indaw and 4
bombing the Naba rail junction area.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 370: 406 bombers and 604
fighters make visual attacks on rail installations and airfields in Belgium
and France; 4 bombers and 12 fighters are lost; the fighters claim 13-2-3
Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 3-0-5 on the ground; unless otherwise
indicated, all targets are in France:
  1. 307 B-24s are dispatched to marshalling yards at Belfort (74 bomb) and
Mulhouse (134 bomb); 12 hit Tonnere marshalling yard and 37 bomb Bretigny and
1 bombs Dijon Airfields; 2 B-24s are lost and 57 damaged; 20 airmen are MIA.
  2. 320 B-17s are dispatched to Nancy/Essey Airfield (75 bomb) and
marshalling yards at Metz (69 bomb), Saarguemines (36 bomb) and Blainville
(36 bomb); 56 B-17s hit Thionville marshalling yard and 3 bomb Liege
Airfield, Belgium; 14 B-17s are damaged.
  3. 103 B-24s bomb Montignies sur Sambre marshalling yard and 9 bomb Alos
marshalling yard; 3 B-24s are damaged.
  4. In Belgium 247 B-17s are dispatched against marshalling yards at
Brussels/Schaerbeck (52 bomb), Brussels/Midi (29 bomb) and Leige/Guillemines
(50 bomb); other marshalling yards hit are Brussels/Melsbroek (18 bomb) and
Liege/Renory (50 bomb); 2 B-18s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 71
damaged; 1 airman is KIA, 6 WIA and 28 MIA.
  5. 18 of 38 B-17s and 18 of 18 B-24s hit Fecamp gun battery without loss.
  6. 15 B-17s hit St Valery gun battery without loss.
Escort is provided by 136 P-38s, 181 P-47s and 287 P-51s; P-38s claim 3-1-0
Luftwaffe aircraft, 9 P-38s (pilots are MIA) are lost and 8 damaged; P-47s
claim 4-1-2 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 3-0-5 on the ground, 6 P-47s
are damaged; P-51s claim 6-0-1 Luftwaffe aircraft, 3 P-51s are lost (pilots
are MIA) and 1 damaged.
  MISSION 371: 4 of 4 B-17s drop leaflets in France without loss.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 225+ B-26s attack bridges near
Liege, Belgium and airfields at Lille/Nord and Monchy-Breton, France. About
250 P-47s dive-bomb various targets in W Europe.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 340+ bombers attack targets in
France and Italy; B-17s attack the marshalling yard at Lyon, France; B-24s
attack marshalling yards at Amberieux, Toulon and Givors, France, and in
Italy, the port area at Monfalcone, airfield at Piancenza and industrial area
at Porto Marghera; P-38s and P-51s fly 200+ sorties in support.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): Twelfth Air Force has it's most
active day to date against enemy forces in Italy; some medium bombers
continue to pound bridges in NC Italy, damaging several bridges and viaducts,
while others join light and fighter-bombers in close support of ground troops
in the battle area and behind enemy lines; motor transport N and S of Rome
and N of Anzio is hit hard by the air attacks; US Fifth Army achieves a solid
front with junction of VI Corps (Anzio force) and II Corps (advancing along W
coast) during the morning near Borgo Grappa.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-25s flying out of Engebi
Island bomb Ponape Island.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 3
B-24s bomb Rabaul, Lakunai, and Rapopo; 8 P-38s hit Vulcan Crater barge
hideout; 12 B-25s, clouded out of Vunakanau, hit the Talili Bay supply area.
On Bougainville Island, 15 B-25s, 32 P-39s and P-40s, and 25 US Navy (USN)
dive bombers hit supply areas at Porton; 4 other P-40s hit trucks at Monoitu
Mission; 16 P-39s attack several targets of opportunity, including the Cape
Lalahan radar station.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): B-24s attack shipping at
Halmahera Island and in New Guinea, hit Mokmer and targets in the Wakde area;
90+ fighter-bombers, A-20s, B-25s, and B-24s pound numerous targets in the
Wewak area.
  Units of the 71st Tactical Reconnaissance Group moving in New Guinea: air
echelon of 17th Reconnaissance Squadron (Bombardment), from Finschhafen to
Wakde Island with B-25s; 110th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron, based at
Gusap begins operating from Tadji with P-40s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 May 1994 07:48:53 CDT
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Media: CNN Story today

CNN this morning, on headline news, is running a story on the only
living Medal of Honor winner who is still living today.  He is attending
the ceremonies as part of the US presidential delegation.  He won his
Medal of Honor during the period after D-Day--the 9-11 of June I bleve.
Sorry but I don;t remember the gent's name.

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 May 1994 08:00:59 CDT
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re[2]: Criteria of Greatness

For anyone who thinks of Schwartzkopf as a compassionate general, read
the book "War in the Gulf"--I think that is the title--he pummeled
hisgenerals and staff constantly to the point many wanted to resign, and
morale in CENTCOM was unbelievably low.  I realize he was trying to get
a mission done, however he was abusive to his staff, which at many times
didn't deserve it.  His tactics and public relations image were
impeccible at the time, however he was feared and despised amoung the
CENTCOM staff.If the war would have had more trials and tribulations,
these cracks among the staff would have been more apparent.

Tim

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 May 1994 08:04:38 CDT
From:    Robert Hohlt <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Grim Reapers

Sidney and others,

> Is the GRIM REAPERS outfit you mention the same USAF
> squadron that flew B-26's on Interuder missions over
> North Korea?

No, VF-10 Grim Reapers was a Navy squadron started by
Jimmy Flatley (a friend of Jimmy Thach).  The original
VF-10 were only in existance from 1942 to 1945.  They had
3 WWII tours of duty the first 2 being on USS Enterprise
(CV-6) the last on the Intrepid. They flew all three Navy
fighters during their tours, the Wildcat, Hellcat and Corsair.

Give my regards to Mr. Lucien Thomas however.  All the WW2 vets
are heros IMO.

Robert Hohlt, Jr.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 May 1994 09:09:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Media: CNN Story today

 >CNN this morning, on headline news, is running a story on the only
 >living Medal of Honor winner who is still living today.

He is the only living grunt MOH winner WHO LANDED IN NORMANDY.
                                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 >He is attending the ceremonies as part of the US presidential
 >delegation.  He won his Medal of Honor during the period after
 >D-Day--the 9-11 of June I bleve.
 >Sorry but I don;t remember the gent's name.

He was a sergeant who attacked a German machinegun position and
killed (12 or 16) German soldiers attacking his squad.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 May 1994 11:01:38 -0400
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Media: CNN Story today

>CNN this morning, on headline news, is running a story on the only
>living Medal of Honor winner who is still living today.  He is attending
>the ceremonies as part of the US presidential delegation.  He won his
>Medal of Honor during the period after D-Day--the 9-11 of June I bleve.
>Sorry but I don;t remember the gent's name.

Am I to understand from this that there was only one Medal of Honor winner
who accepted his citation himself who is still alive today?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka                                         National Warplane Museum
Cornell University                                 Geneseo, New York
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 May 1994 10:03:54 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Fuehrer's Fireman

Yannick,

     I suppose that would be Model.

Lou Coatney, Western Illinois University Library

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 May 1994 11:35:40 EDT
From:    Doug McCabe <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: D-Day: Which Is It?

    Thank you Jim Benn for asking about where the Cornelius Ryan Collection
    is housed.  The following is a non-profit, self-promoting info-mercial:

    The Ryan Collection is in the Archives and Special Collections
    Department, Alden Library, Ohio University, Athens, OH 45701.  There
    are really two collections: Ryan's personal library; and his research,
    manuscripts, and screenplays for his books and articles.  Additionally,
    there is a special display room dedicated to Ryan and, from now until
    July 15, we have erected a major exhibit of materials from the Ryan
    Collection and other collections which contain items about WWII in the
    upper lobby of the Library.

    Athens is located SSE of Columbus and is about a 1 1/2 hour drive.  The
    Archives and Special Collections department is open Mon-Fri 8:00 to
    5:00 and, while University classes are in session, Sat 12:00 to 4:00.

    Doug McCabe
    University Records Manager
    Archives and Special Collections
    Alden Library
    Ohio University
    Athens, Ohio 45701
    (614) 593-2715 - work
    (614) 593-2959 - FAX
    (614) 592-5732 - home
    [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 May 1994 12:04:24 -0400
From:    "Mr. Scott Hannon" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Anglo-American ArmoUr deficient?

Ken writes:

> As for tactics, you are going to have to be a lot more detailed,
> because I just don't believe for a moment that a Panther was any slower
> than a Sherman.

Generally it was the lightly armored US TDs that were quickest....what
they lacked in armor (and thus weight) they made up in speed and agility.
These were the US tank hunters...not the Shermans. The Sherman tank's
greater mobility compared to Panther had much to do with the situation
than the individual merits of the two vehicles. For example, most US
tanks were in tank bns of armored divs. These were fully mechanized
units. In contrast, German tanks rarely operated in fully mechanized
units (in reality if not TOE). Also, while both the US and the German
forces in western europe suffered from poor supply situations in 1944,
the German situation was generlly worse (and Hitler's desperate attacks
to try and turn the tide of the war only made it even worse).

> I think I'd prefer a T34-85 to a PzIVh any day. With the JSIIs and IIIs
> in the wings, the Germans would have been in serious trouble on the field.
> I don't think there is any way they could have made quantity make up the
> difference.

The JS tanks were not a major issue IMO. To me the T-34/85 question is
the real problem. Right, the Pz IV/StuG were inferior (worse armor,
mobility, and even gun) but not greatly so. The JgPz IV was a bit better
in gun and armor/defense (although mobilty was quite poor). Panther was
not greatly superior to T-34/85. I think the right T-34/85 solution might
have been TDs (JgPz IV and Jagdpanther) rather than so many Panther tanks.

>> ...maximize production of ... [Pz IV & variants] ... as the MBT. These
>>  might have been produced at a 2-to-1 ratio over Panthers.

> Again, I'd like to see a rigorous analysis of production capability before
> buying that big a bulge--it certainly doesn't show up in my =Second Front=
> computer game! (-:

Sorry, looked last night and couldn't find a good measure of production
costs. In terms of raw materials, Panther was more than twice as much
(80-85 tons vs 37-40 tons). I found a price for Panther but not for
Pz IV/variants. Nothing on man-hours at all.

Any tank experts out there that can fill us in????

BTW, I don't trust _Second Front_...some of those production figures
look very odd to me.

Scott.
Scott Hannon, Wed May 25 1994 ([email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 May 1994 10:22:50 -0700
From:    Ed Kettler <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [GEN] Computer games and simulations

Robert,

360 is still working on the Intel version of Victory at Sea, and the
story is a fall release.  The Mac version did not get good reviews.  If
you are interesested in modern naval warfare, 360's Harpoon2 will be out
in June.

In the miniatures games arena, Clash of Arms Games will be publishing
Command at Sea in June, which is a World War 2 version of Harpoon.  The
game comes with scenarios and data for the Pacific for 1941-1943.

Hope that helps,
Ed
--

Ed Kettler                                       [email-masked]

On Tue, 24 May 1994, Robert Hohlt wrote:

> Emery Ford and others,
>
> Since too much is never enough, on the subject of computer
> games, I am interested in the Pacific war simulations.
>
> I already have and swear by Gary Grigsbys' Pac War.  I also
> have his Carrier Strike game.  Have any of you played the
> new version of Carriers at War, and Battles of the South
> Pacific by OOP(?).  How do they measure up?
>
> What is Action Stations like?
>
> Is 360s Victory at Sea still in the works?
>
>
> regards,
>
>
> Robert Hohlt, Jr.
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 May 1994 13:39:41 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Anglo-American ArmoUr deficient?

OK, I'll fess up my ignorance: What the !$## is a TD???

                                                        :-?Steve

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 May 1994 14:12:11 -0400
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Anglo-American ArmoUr deficient?

        For the defensive posture that Germany found herself during
the latter part of the war, I think they should have dumped turreted
tanks.  Turrets added to the complexity of the vehicle, increased the
time of production, and probably increased maintenance costs.  In
defensive positions, I'm not sure that the turret would help that
much.  (Jagd and Sturm variants of existing chasses did have limited
traversal abilities of their guns.)  Turretless vehicles could also
house larger guns.

        On an aside, a coworker asked what I was doing as I was reading
my mail.  I answered, "Eating some cheese, drinking some soda, and catching
some rays, man..." in my best Odd Ball impersonation.  (I really was
eating cheese and drinking soda.)  He looked around our bunker-like
cubicle and asked, "What rays?!"  "Cathode rays, baby!"  He groaned
(as everyone else on this list probably is!)
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
These tanks are faster than any other tanks in the European theater
of operations, forwards or backwards.  See, man, we like to feel that
we can get out of trouble quicker than we got into it.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 May 1994 11:15:38 PST
From:    "Jones, Scott T." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re[2]: Criteria of Greatness

     I don't think that "greatness" can truly be measured by comparison to
     some mysterious "yardstick". For example, one could measure greatness
     by the success of a commander, but then, how do you measure success?
     Enemy killed? territory taken? less friendly casualties?

     Greatness would change over time as well. Weaponry has become stronger
     and faster over time and, as a result, so has warfare in general.
     (WWII vs. Gulf War). Likewise, more territory could be taken in less
     time so Napoleon and Khan would lose out in that arena.

     Then one must consider the rank/level of the commander. For example, a
     buddy of mine serves under a battalion commander who is great to him.
     Does this battalion commander receive a fair comparison to the
     Eisenhowers and Pattons?

     As you can see, "greatness" is a relative quality and not a
     scalar/measurable one.

     Of course, you could always look at the person's name (e.g. Frederick
     the Great)! :)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
     Scott T. Jones                | "I come from a long line of greatness.
     Dahlgren, VA 22448  USA       |  My grandparent's parents were great, their
     Internet: [email-masked]  |  parents were great-great..."
_____________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 May 1994 14:43:47 -0400
From:    "Mr. Scott Hannon" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Anglo-American ArmoUr deficient?

> OK, I'll fess up my ignorance: What the !$## is a TD???

Sorry...TD = Tank Destroyer. These were armored vehicles built expressly
for the purpose of destroying enemy tanks....ie self-propelled anti-tank
weapons. They came in three general forms:
1) no armor (mounted on a truck or something)
2) light armor (proof against small arms only)
3) fully armored (hopefully enough to survive a hit from an enemy tank)

And of course there were also truck and tractor drawn AT guns.

Most US TDs in WW2 were of the "light armor" type...originally guns
mounted on half-tracks in 1942/43, and then specialized fully tracked
vehicles such as the M-10 and M-36 in 1944. These TDs generally mounted
larger guns than those found on the Sherman.

German TDs were more varied, ranging from the barely armored Marders to
the super-heavy armored Elefants and JagdTigers. Most of the designs
were based on variants of tanks...basically the same chassis with
a casemate and gun replacing the upper hull and turrent.

The Germans also built large number of assault guns (usually abbreviated
with the German StuG). These were originally intended as infantry support
weapons, but by 1944 were at the core of the German armored force along
with the Pz IV and Panther.

Scott.
Scott Hannon, Wed May 25 1994 ([email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 May 1994 14:50:16 -0400
From:    Kevin Kamphaus <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Anglo-American ArmoUr deficient?

Hopefully it is a tank destroyer, thats what I have been taking it as :/ .

Kevin Kamphaus
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 May 1994 14:53:08 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Anglo-American ArmoUr deficient?

On Wed, 25 May 1994 13:39:41 -0400 Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs. said:
>OK, I'll fess up my ignorance: What the !$## is a TD???
>
>                                                        :-?Steve
Tank Destroyer
-    -

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 May 1994 14:55:29 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Criteria of Greatness

On Wed, 25 May 1994 11:15:38 PST Jones, Scott T. said:
>     Greatness would change over time as well. Weaponry has become stronger
>     and faster over time and, as a result, so has warfare in general.
>     (WWII vs. Gulf War). Likewise, more territory could be taken in less
>     time so Napoleon and Khan would lose out in that arena.

Don't be too sure.  Dunnegan claims that no army has advanced as a whole
faster than the Khan/Subotai's, at a steady 20 miles per day for months
on end.  Sure, subunits have done 100 miles in a day, but not whole armies,
and not for more than a few days or so.

ken koester
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 May 1994 14:18:31 CDT
From:    Robert Hohlt <[email-masked]>
Subject: [MEDIA] Congressional Medal of Honor

Everyone,

I have a newspaper article on the living WW2 CMO heros
dated November 7, 1993. The newspaper is the Dallas
Morning News. the article is "Echoes of WWII, Medal of
Honor acts changed lives for heros."

related to the thread we are now pursuing, it says:

...
There remain only 98 Medal of Honor recipients from World War II,
including four Texans, four Oklahomans, four residents of Arkansas and one
from Louisiana.

The 13 listed in the article with job and acts were:

William E. Hall,  Navy pilot, 3 Japanese planes during Battle of Coral Sea.

Robert Galer,     Marine pilot, 11 1/2 kills in 29 days at Guadalcanal.

Jeff DeBlanc,     Marine pilot, 5 kills in 5 minutes in Solomons. Wow!!!

James Logan,      Pvt. 36th Inf Div., apparently attacked the entire
                  German Army single handedly in Salerno, Italy.

Ernest Childers,  Lt. 45th Inf Div., multiple German Machine gun nests
                  and one German he killed by throwing a rock.  Oliveto,
                  Italy.

Maurice Britt,    Cpt. 3rd Inf Div., blunted German counter attack and
                  was badly wounded in Mignano, Italy.

Jack C. Montgomery, Lt. 45th Inf Div., multiple heroics and captured 32
                    Germans in Italy.

Nathan G. Gordon, Navy PBY pilot, rescued total of 15 men from life rafts
                  while under fire in Bismark Sea area.

Lucian Adams,     Sgt. 30th Inf Div. 3 german MG nests single handedly in
                  Montagne forest near St. Die France.

Jose M. Lopez,    Pfc. 2nd Inf Div. cut down 35 german attackers with
                  heavy machinegun before being wounded, then while dazed
                  killed another 65 enemy soldiers until ran out of ammo.
                  Battle of Bulge.  Ardennes Forest, Belgium.

Wilson D. Watson, 3rd Marine Div. unspecified valor, Iwo Jima.

John R. Crews,    SSgt. 63rd Inf Div. 2 machine gun nests, caused several
                  enemy soldiers to surrender and the rest to flee, his
                  only weapon was an M1 rifle, near Lobenbacherhof, Germany.

Clarence B. Craft, Pfc. 96th Inf Div., carried out 1 man war against enemy
                   strong points. Okinawa.

Unless there has been something dreadfull happen to these 98 men, most of
them should still be alive today.

Apparently they are extremely hard to kill.

Regards to all,

Robert Hohlt, Jr.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 May 1994 15:18:32 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: The B-26 Marauder at Utah Beach

The cover story for the June issue of *Air&Space/Smithsonian* takes the
Martin B-26 Marauder to Utah Beach on 6 June 1944. It comes with a
gorgeous gatefold painting by William Philips and some good photos.

Of particular note is the fact that the story was researched in part
right here. I don't know if that's a first, but it was a first for me,
and given the time constraints I couldn't have done it otherwise.

Thanks to all of you who helped me do the job against a deadline. I hope
you enjoy the result.

- Dan           They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
                Age shall not weary them, nor time condemn.
                At the going down of the sun and in the morning
                We will remember them.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 May 1994 15:18:18 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Anglo-American ArmoUr deficient?

I thank you for your response.

I was under the impression that they were some sort of "rat patrol"
(Remember the old TV series?) squad. You have correct my ignorance.

                                                                Steve
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - [email-masked] |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 May 1994 15:22:25 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Anglo-American ArmoUr deficient?

>From: "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
>Subject:      Re: WEAP: Anglo-American ArmoUr deficient?
>X-To:         [email-masked]
>To: Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <[email-masked]>
>Status: RO
>
>OK, I'll fess up my ignorance: What the !$## is a TD???
>
>                                                        :-?Steve
>
 Steve,

        I believe that it stands for Tank Destroyer.  If I'm
wrong the experts here will gladly correct me.

Jim

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-8760
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-8760

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 May 1994 15:38:59 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Criteria of Greatness

>
>On Wed, 25 May 1994 11:15:38 PST Jones, Scott T. said:
>>     Greatness would change over time as well. Weaponry has become stronger
>>     and faster over time and, as a result, so has warfare in general.
>>     (WWII vs. Gulf War). Likewise, more territory could be taken in less
>>     time so Napoleon and Khan would lose out in that arena.
>
>Don't be too sure.  Dunnegan claims that no army has advanced as a whole
>faster than the Khan/Subotai's, at a steady 20 miles per day for months
>on end.  Sure, subunits have done 100 miles in a day, but not whole armies,
>and not for more than a few days or so.
>
>ken koester

And don't forget: The Mongols never lost a battle, they maintained resupply
lines across Asia, and only aborted a European conquest voluntarily.
                                                                Steve
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - [email-masked] |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 May 1994 15:51:37 EST
From:    Aldo <[email-masked]>
Subject: Nost: What the Hell

Hello all,

A few days ago someone inquired about WWII contemporary phrases,
popular music etc...

Just yesterday I was listening to Cab Calloway, whom I like a lot,
but there is one song that I can not figure out called " A Chicken
Ain't Nuthin But a Bird".   I am prideless & shamless enough to ask
anyone who will listen, "What the hell does this somg mean?"

I feel I should apologize to the more earnest for posing this query,
but I'm genuinely curious & have been for 3 yrs now (since I first
heard the song).

Sorry & thanks,

Aldo

Aldo M. Hubert
                                           [email-masked]
University of North Carolina at Greensboro
800 Oakland Ave.
Greensboro NC 27412

Sic Friatur Crustum Dulce

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 May 1994 15:33:26 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: NEWS: DUTCH WWII HERO DIES

>From EZ-Mail_PC_Mailbox
Date: Wed May 25 14:21:08 1994
From: SENDSAVE MAIL
To: [email-masked]
Subject: NEWS: Dutch Hero of WWII dies
Status: RO

Rest in Peace

>From the Associated Press, dateline Los Angeles, from the
Philadelphia Inquirer 25 May 1994.

Former Dutch Army Capt. John Henry Weidner, 81, whose
"Dutch-Paris" underground network rescued more than 1,000 Jews
and Allied servicemen from the Nazis during World War II, has
died.

Mr. Weidner died of heart failure at his Monterey Park home
Saturday, said his wife, Naomi.

Decorated by many nations for his war heroism, Mr. Weidner
helped form an organization that operated escape lines from
war-torn countries into Spain and Switzerland.  He was captured
twice and tortured, but he managed to escape.

"He was concerned with people as individuals, not as masses,"
Herbert Ford, author of the 1966 biography of Mr. Weidner, "Flee
the Captor."

The network was credited with saving at least 1,000 people.

Germany invaded the Netherlands while Mr. Weidner was in Paris
in 1940.  He tried to escape to England but was detained in
Lyons.  He then helped organize the underground network.  The
escape lines went from Holland through Belgium, France and
Andorra to Spain, and through France to Switzerland.  Mr.
Weidner's sister, Gabrielle, was among 40 members of the network
killed by the Nazis.

The United States awarded Mr. Weidner the Medal of Freedom.  He
also received honors from Britain, the Netherlands, France,
Belgium and Israel.

In California, Mr. Weidner and his wife estasblished a chain of
health-food stores.

In addition to his wife, he is survived by a sister, Annette
Hipleh, and a nephew, Charles Hipleh.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-8760
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-8760

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 May 1994 15:27:34 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: NEWS:D-DAY ARTIST GOES ON DISPLAY

>From the Military Newswire Service run by the PAO of the USAF Reserve HQ at
Robins AFB GA, dated 23 May 1994.

D-DAY ARTIST GOES ON DISPLAY

    West Orange, NJ -- Ugo Giannini died before he could get back to Omaha
    Beach.
        But his firsthand account of the D-Day invasion -- sketches
    penciled in foxholes and bunkers -- will be on display there next
    month when thousands of old soldiers gather to mark the 50th
    anniversary of D-Day.
        The military policeman with the U.S. Army's 29th Infantry Division
    was in the first wave of soldiers to hit "Bloody Omaha" on June 6,
    1944.
        "Somehow, he began drawing within 24 hours of the landing," says
    Giannini's 63-year-old widow, Maxine.
        His color sketches show soldiers top-heavy with ammunition, weapons
    and helmets struggling to stay afloat in rough seas; an MP on the beach
    solemnly passing the bodiless head of a friend; rows of slaughtered
    young men -- some of the 3,881 U.S. casualties in the great assault.
        Some of the works note the time, measured in hours after "H-Hour,"
    when the landing took place: H +7, H +70.
        Giannini, an art professor, was 74 when he died early last year of
    pulmonary fibrosis.  He had mentioned the sketches to his wife but
    never showed them to her.  After his death, Mrs. Giannini discovered 27
    D-Day drawings tucked into a folder buried amid other art in his home
    studio.
        "It's a mystery.  How he jumped into the water with a backpack.  He
    was soaking wet.  Where was this pencil?  Where was this pad?  How do
    you carry them back?"  Mrs. Giannini muses aloud, in questions really
    meant for her husband.
        "I became obsessed with the idea that I had to bring some part of
    him back to Normandy," she says.  Next month, her obsession bears fruit
    when 16-by-20-inch photographs of all Giannini's sketches will be
    displayed at the visitors' center erected for ceremonies at Omaha
    Beach.  Shipping costs prohibited sending the framed originals.
        "I think he'd be really happy that his work is being shown in the
    context of D-Day," Mrs. Giannini says.  "It meant a great deal for him
    to get back there."
        The artist tried to return in 1990 but was laid up in a Paris
    hospital with pneumonia.  "When he came out he was too weak to go to
    the beaches," Mrs. Giannini says.
        He returned to West Orange and Caldwell College, a nearby private
    school where he'd taught since 1965.
        As Giannini's respiratory illness progressed, so did his reborn
    interest in the war.
        The artist, who in half a century had produced hundreds of colorful
    abstracts and still lifes of flowers, turned to gray, black and white
    mixed-media collages rich with symbols from D-Day: the number 29 and
    the yin and yang circles that represent his infantry division, giant
    crosses and arrowed lines indicating landing maps.
        The artist's last painting, entitled "H-Hour," still rests
    unfinished on his easel.
        "This all bubbled out at the end of his life," Mrs. Giannini says.
    "The disease may have produced the same kind of dread he felt during
    the war.
        "For the last month of his life, every morning that I went into the
    hospital, he was in the invasion of Normandy.  He was landing again."

        Giann

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-8760
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-8760

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 May 1994 13:01:37 -0700
From:    Jim Benn <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [GEN] Computer games and simulations

On this topics, does anyone know if Avalon Hill ever brought out the IBM
computer version of THIRD REICH?
I originally started calling in late 93 when it was supposed to be
available, but it got put off so often that I gave up.  Thanks.

Jim Benn.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 May 1994 22:22:17 +0200
From:    Hans Steketee <[email-masked]>
Subject: Blitzkrieg France 1940

Does anyone know whether Flak-regiments attached to German Panzer
divisions during the 1940 Blitzkrieg campaign in France were equiped with
so called Horchgerate _  listening devices to measure range, azimuth and
bearing of enemy aircraft - for fire control purposes?

Hans Steketee
Defense editor, NRC Handelsblad, Rotterdam, the Netherlands

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 May 1994 16:47:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: HELP!

The following wants and reunions are from the latest issue of the AMERICAN
AVIATION HISTORICAL SOCIETY NEWSLETTER.

WANTED
------
"I am in need of photographs and information on the Douglas B-18, B-18A and
B-18B.  I am also looking for information about the 5th Reconnaissance
Squadron (Medium).  This squadron was designated the 395th Bombardment
Squadron (Medium) on April 22, 1942.  The squadron flew the B-18 from 1941
to 1943.  Photographs and any other information will aid in the restoration
of the B-18 at the Pima Air and Space Museum in Tucson, Arizona.  Please
contact:
  Hank Dykhuis
  2420 E. Agaphanthus Street
  Tucson, AZ 85737
  USA"

REUNIONS
--------
447TH BOMBARDMENT GROUP REUNION - Milwaukee, Wiconsin at the Marc Plaza
Hotel, June 29 to July 2.  Contact:
  Luther Isenhart
  143 Terrace Road
  Levittown, PA 19056
  (215) 946-7736

459th BOMBARDMENT GROUP (WWII), FIFTEENTH AIR FORCE - 12th Reunion in
Omaha, Nebraska on September 15-18, 1994 at the Holiday Inn Convention
Center.  Call (402) 393-3950.

WOMENS AIRFORCE SERVICE PILOTS, WWII - 1994 Washington, DC Convention on
October 16, 1994 at the Gateway Marriott, Crystal City, Virginia.  For more
information, contact:
  Chairwoman Jersh O'Rourke
  P.O. Box 2116
  Arlington, VA 22202
  (703) 521-1996

If any former flight instructors for Primary Flying School worked for any
of the following ORIGINAL CIVIL CONTRACT PRIMARY FLYING SCHOOLS OF 1939,
read this and please contact me for information on that school: (Jul-Sep
1939):
  1. Chicago Primary at Glenview, Illinois
  2. Dallas Primary at Dallas, Texas
  3. Grand Central Primary at Glendale, California
  4. Hancock College of Aero Primary at Santa Maria, California.
We are trying to locate these original primary school flight instructors so
we can invite them to attend the 1995 Class 40-A Reunion in San Antonio,
Texas.  Contact:
  Robert F. Schirmer, Colonel USAF-Ret
  Hisotrian Class 40-A Association
  8978 East Anna Place
  Tucson, AZ 85710
  (602) 886-0730

PATROL BOMBING SQUADRON 18 (VP-18/VPB-18) (PBN's) WWII 4TH ANNIVERSARY
REUNION - October 33 to o7, 1994 in Las Vegas, Nevada.  Contact:
  John J. McGann
  ADC USN Ret
  2008 Stockton Avenue
  Las Vegas, NV 89104-3838
  1-800-982-7642

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 May 1994 16:52:11 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: TAC:USS Johnston in Leyete Gulf

Was it the USS Johnston, a destroyer that attacked the japanese fleet in
Leyete gulf almost singlehandedly? I wonder what was her fate, and that
of the other tin can that joined in later.

Was this attack a key factor in the outcome?? Who were the princples
involved???

One curious fellow...                                   Steve

(Hi, Sid)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - [email-masked] |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 May 1994 16:11:22 -0500
From:    Joe Churman <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Criteria of Greatness

> And don't forget: The Mongols never lost a battle, they maintained resupply
> lines across Asia, and only aborted a European conquest voluntarily.

OOPS! The Mongol Khan Mamai was defeated in the 1380 Battle of Kulikovo by
Dmitrii "Donskoi" Ivanvich. While the victory did little immediately to
change Russo-Tatar relations, it shattered the myth of Mongol
invincibility.  Donskoi proclaimed himself "Grand Prince of all
Russia, but abandoned Moscow two years later to the avenging
Khan Tokhtamysh; Moscow and northern Rus again submitted to
Mongol overlordship. Victory at Kulikovo was nonetheless an important early
step on the path to Russia's unification and independence. You
know--"casting off the Tatar yoke" and all that.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 May 1994 18:30:49 -0400
From:    Emery Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Criteria of Greatness

Hello,

On Wed, 25 May Steve Pudlo wrote:
>
>And don't forget: The Mongols never lost a battle, they maintained resupply
>lines across Asia, and only aborted a European conquest voluntarily.

I read that Prince Dmitrii of Moscow defeated the Mongols in 1380 at the
Battle of Kulikovo.   And I thought I learned that the Moscow princes
gradually forced the Mongols out of what eventually became Russia, and
then conquered them, taking a significant portion of asia by the time
Peter the Great died in 1725.
        Are these the same Mongols?  Or are you referring to the Golden
Horde?
        I know I tuned into this debate late, *and* this is a major
stretch for a WWII related subject, but am I in the ballpark?

        --Emery

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 May 1994 18:22:55 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TAC:USS Johnston in Leyete Gulf

Johnston went down with her hard-fighting American Indian skipper.
  The U.S.S. Heermann(sp?), also Fletcher-class, went through the
  "suicide charge" with hardly a nick to her paint!  (My son did
  a thoroughly researched Heermann out of the RC Lindberg plastic
  Fletcher-class kit, so I/we learned about her.)

The main Japanese battle fleet was beaten off by continuous
  aerial harrassment and those DDs' and DEs' suicidal torpedo
  charge.  It gives me goose bumps, every time I read (about) it!

If Kurita hadn't lost his nerve and turned back at the last
  moment, it would have been known as the Leyte Gulf Massacre.

Lou Coatney, Western Illinois University Library (til 30Jn94)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 May 1994 22:30:55 EDT
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: US Tank Destroyers

Scott Hannon writes:

>>US tank doctrine and battlefield reality were two different
things, and the (over-) reliance on TDs was unpopular with the guys in the
Shermans for obvious reasons. While not exactly a failure, it wasn't seen
as entirely satisfactory either and after the war TDs were more-or-less
dropped from US thinking<<

     I'm puzzled by your comments.  Do you mean to imply that tankers
begrudged tank destroyers (TD) their doctrinal anti-tank mission?  As a
tanker myself, I'd much rather be turned loose in the enemy's rear area to
shoot up trucks than go toe to toe with enemy tanks.  I would be very
surprised if my military forefathers felt any different.

    As for why TDs disappeared after the war, a important part of the story
is missing.   The best history of US TDs in the war is Seek, Strike and
Destroy by Christopher Gabel.  He gets the credit for what follows.  The
author argues that TD doctrine was based on a flawed understanding of
combined arms warfare and the German threat.  US TD doctrine emphasized
mobility and firepower.  It called for towed TDs  to thicken the infantry's
defense and mobile TDs to operate en mass against the flanks and rear of a
enemy tank penetration.  In the rush to get into battle, the TD force was
saddled with stopgap weapons like the M3 half-track TD and the M10.  Neither
these weapons nor the others improvised TDs had the requisite mobility and
firepower to execute their doctrine.  Their poor performance doomed the TD
concept to failure.  By the time that numbers of specification built TDs (ex.
M18 Hellcat) finally reached the field, it was already to late.  In the
meantime, commanders did what they get paid to do when doctrine and weapons
fail them; they improvised and accomplished the mission.  Mobile TDs became
ersatz artillery, assault guns, and tank substitutes.  They lacked the fire
control systems and training needed to excel at the first job and they had
insufficient armored protection for the later two.   By the end of the war,
improvements in US tanks like the M-26 made the TDs superfluous.  A postwar
review of TD operations lauded their versatility but recognized the failure
of the concept.  Hence, the modern dual purpose MBT.  Optimized to defeat
enemy armor, it retains the capacity to ravage the enemy's softer parts.

Allons,

CPT V.J. Tedesco III
Cavalryman & Scholar
Pennsylvania State University
(814) 867-7006
E-Mail = [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 May 1994 22:43:50 -0400
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Anglo-American ArmoUr deficient?

Just a thought/question: How much did the lack of German tanks mobility
during the last years of the war have to do with the scarcity of petrol?
Could this account for some of the perceived differences between AA tank
mobility and German tank mobility? As I said, just a thought.
On another note, I think that the contraversy over the Pointe du Hoc may
be due to a language difference. In Normandy, they  call the Pointe du
Hoc, the Pointe du Hoc (i.e. in French). In English, perhaps it has become
called the Pointe du Hoe (much like Deutschland is called Germany and the
differences in the pronunciation of Paris etc.)
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 May 1994 22:46:58 -0500
From:    GEARHEART DRAKE ERICK <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Anglo-American ArmoUr deficient?

TD is a Tank Destroyer......smaller, faster, less armor but has a good
main gun....I'd guess about a 75mm or so

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 24 May 1994 to 25 May 1994
*************************************************