Subject: WWII-L Digest - 25 May 1994 to 26 May 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 27 May 1994 00:00:07 -0400

There are 64 messages totalling 2033 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. [GEN] Computer games and simulations (2)
  2. REQUEST: WWII Airbone Operations (7)
  3. WEAP: Anglo-American ArmoUr deficient? (10)
  4. OddBall (2)
  5. INF: USN Chronology 05-26-94
  6. [INF] USAAF 26 MAY 44
  7. MEDIA: D-DAY FILM ON PBS (3)
  8. The B-26 Marauder at Utah Beach
  9. All aboard?
 10. Japanese-Americans' WWII Internment
 11. Is this list active???
 12. TRV: Tiger II yellow circle cross solution ...
 13. Kelly's Heroes for real?! (6)
 14. Clinton & D-Day:  Oxford avoidance  :-) (3)
 15. NEWS - "Double Cross" counterspy, LtCol "Tar" Robertson dies.
 16. Tank Destroyers (et.al.)
 17. *Geography* thesis on Nisei internment?! (2)
 18. Normandy
 19. Clinton/D-Day typo correction
 20. Archie's KABOOM!
 21. Clinton & D-Day: Oxford avoidance :-) (2)
 22. Standard US Helmet Paint
 23. Clinton's D-Day/UK Speech (2)
 24. Give Clinton a rest on D-Day?  :-)
 25. ADMIN: Clinton relevance
 26. ADMIN: Excerpt from WWII-L introduction
 27. WWII AIRBORNE OPS
 28. Re[2]: WEAP: Anglo-American ArmoUr deficient?
 29. Airshows in NE USA
 30. Hermann Goering Fallschrim Panzer Divison
 31. Clinton/D-Day (Forgive me Lou for I'm about to sin.)
 32. MEDIA: D-Day Program Alert!
 33. Lou, Steve, Clinton, etc. (2)
 34. WEAP: Anglo-American Armor deficient?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 May 1994 23:05:13 -0500
From:    GEARHEART DRAKE ERICK <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [GEN] Computer games and simulations

I grew up playing PANZER LEADER and SQUAD LEADER.  In addition to THIRD
REICH, does anyone know if any of these other two are on computer now?

                                        Drake

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 May 1994 22:16:43 -0800
From:    Joseph Boeke <[email-masked]>
Subject: REQUEST: WWII Airbone Operations

Okay, I just got a copy of Pegasus Bridge (got it from an auction).  Looks
like a pretty good little game.  But it got me thinking, how many
airborne/glider operations occurred during WWII?  What games were done to
cover them?

I compiled a list of Operation Market-Garden games last summer, so I can
attach it to this list, but first the history part.  Here is the (brief)
list of airborne drops that I know occured in WWII:

Location:        Year:     Airborne:   ####s:     Defenders:
--------         ----      --------    -----      ---------

Eben Emael       1940      German        500      Belgian
Rotterdam        1940      German      4,000      Dutch
Oslo             1940      German      1,500      Norwegian
Mercury          1941      German      7,000      British/Commonwealth
Sumatra          1942      Japanese    ?          Dutch
Normandy         1944      Allied      3x div     German
Holland          1944      Allied      3x div     German

####s = number of airborne troops or units involved.

Okay, I know there must have been more airbone operations.  Since I am not
an east-front afficiando, I really need help there -- I seem to recall a
Soviet operation in 1943 or there abouts.  Did the Itallian Airborne ever
perform a combat drop?  I also seem to recall that the Japanese may have
landed paras on Guam (from a propoganda poster I saw).

I want attach a list of games to these drops as well, so info on that
(except for Market-Garden) is much appreciated.

Regards,

- Joe Boeke
  [email-masked]

  "The day after tommorow is the third day, of the rest of your life."
     - George Carlin

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 08:26:33 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Anglo-American ArmoUr deficient?

Steven Pudlo writes...
>       OK, I'll fess up my ignorance: What the !$## is a TD???
> :-?Steve

Steven makes a valid point - in that several of us are not
walking dictionaries of military acronyms. Is there such a list
available on the net (I know there is one for naval terms...)

If subscribers could "explode" acronyms the first time they're used,
confusion will be minimised.

regards

steve baldwin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 08:33:26 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: OddBall

Joe Barone writes...
>               On an aside, a coworker asked what I was doing as I was reading
>       my mail.  I answered, "Eating some cheese, drinking some soda, and catching
>       some rays, man..." in my best Odd Ball impersonation.

funny you mention this Joe.
Said film Kelly's Heroes was on last night - peak viewing
(~2300-0040 :-) ). I always enjoy watching OddBall's antics...

I would like to ask the list how well the film in general, and OddBall
in particular represent the ethos and motivation of the American
soldier in Europe during WWII? Also noteworthy is the 2** General...

steve baldwin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 01:14:02 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 05-26-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
05/26 Fri. Destroyer bombard enemy shore batteries and
           installations on Mili Atoll, Marshall Islands.
            Japanese naval submarine sunk:
             RO-108, by destroyer escort ENGLAND (DE-635), north
              of Bismarck Archipelago,
              00 d.32' S., 149 d. 56' E.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 06:10:49 EDT
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: REQUEST: WWII Airbone Operations

Earlier Joe Boeke asked about other airborne operations in WWII.

Joe,

I've inserted a few more combat airborne operations in your list below:
(You missed a few).

>Okay, I just got a copy of Pegasus Bridge (got it from an auction).  Looks
>like a pretty good little game.  But it got me thinking, how many
>airborne/glider operations occurred during WWII?  What games were done to
>cover them?
>
>I compiled a list of Operation Market-Garden games last summer, so I can
>attach it to this list, but first the history part.  Here is the (brief)
>list of airborne drops that I know occured in WWII:
>
>Location:        Year:     Airborne:   ####s:     Defenders:
>--------         ----      --------    -----      ---------
>
>Eben Emael    May   1940      German        500      Belgian
                            Special Abn Engineer assault force:  actually,
                            the total force was closer to 50.

>Rotterdam     May   1940      German      4,000      Dutch
                            7th Flieger Division reinforced by Army 22nd Air
                            Landing Division
>Oslo         Apr    1940      German      1,500      Norwegian
                            Elements 7th Flieger Division
>Mercury          1941      German      7,000      British/Commonwealth
                             7th Flieger Division reinforced by 5th Mountain
                             Division in air landing role.

>Sumatra          1942      Japanese    ?          Dutch
>Normandy         1944      Allied      3x div     German
                            US 82nd, US 101st, UK 6th Abn
>Holland          1944      Allied      3x div     German
                            US 82nd, US 101st, UK 1st Abn
North Africa      Nov 1942  US    509th Abn Bn   seize Tafaraoui airfield from
                                                 Vichy French
                                     (this was part of TORCH)
North Africa      Nov 1942   US  509th Abn Bn    seize Youks les Bains airfield
                                     (1 week later, follow on to TORCH)
Sicily            Jul 43    US-UK  82nd ABN DIV/1st UK ABN DIV
                                     (support amphib landings)
Salerno            Sep 43   US    82nd units jump to reinforce beachhead
Avellino          Sep 43    US  509th Abn Bn    disrupt German rear area
                                                behind Salerno beachhead
ANVIL/DRAGOON     Aug 44   US/UK  1st Allied Abn TF   take Le Muy airfield
                                 in support of landings in Southern France
VARSITY           Mar 45    US/UK  17th ABN DIV/6th UK ABN DIV
                                    jump across Rhine River in support of
                                    river crossing near Wesel
Noemfoor Island    ___43    US     503rd Abn Regt jumps to reinforce beachhead
                                    (part of 11th ABN DIV)
Corrigidor         ___44    US     503rd Abn Regt jumps to re-take Corrigidor
                                     from Japanese (in Phillipines)
Leros               ____43   German  reinforced battalion takes island from
                                     British and Greeks in Aegean
Battle of the Bulge  Dec 44  German  one battalion under von der Heydte
                                 attempts to disrupt Allied rear area (fails)
Yugoslavia          ___44    German  SS parachute battalion almost catches
                                      Tito in his mountain HQ
Russia/Moscow Front  Jan 42   Russian  drop 4+ brigades behind lines of Army
                                       Group Center to disrupt German rear
                                       (overall a failure)  These operations
                                       were over a number of days and different
                                       locations
Russia/near Kiev      Sep 43   Russian  drop 3 brigades in attempt to widen
                                        Kremenchug (sp?) bridgehead, total
                                        failure, Germans wipe out forces

I'll have to check my references to make sure I didn't miss any.
All of yours are correct.

>Okay, I know there must have been more airbone operations.  Since I am not
>an east-front afficiando, I really need help there -- I seem to recall a
>Soviet operation in 1943 or there abouts.  Did the Itallian Airborne ever
>perform a combat drop?

>I also seem to recall that the Japanese may have
>landed paras on Guam (from a propoganda poster I saw).
>
My mother and grandparents were on Guam on 7 Dec 41:  there were no Japanese
paratroopers used there (no need to, island garrison too weak).

Hope this helps,

Barry

Barrett F. Lowe               RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, West Point  (e-mail:  [email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 07:45:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 26 MAY 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
FRIDAY, 26 MAY 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  P-61, Northrop Black Widow

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 2 B-24s off on an armed photo mission over
Shimushu Island turn back due to mechanical troubles.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 23 P-40s sink several supply boats
on the Yangtze River near Shihshow, strafe troops at Shasi, hit road traffic
near Loyang and strafe pontoon bridges, supply dumps and troops at Shanhsien;
7 P-40s bomb the town of Hsing-tzu; and 2 B-25s damage a small tanker N of
Swatow.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 372: 4 of 4 B-17s drop
leaflets in The Netherlands without loss.
  P-38s participate in 2 sweep over The Netherlands for familiarization
purposes without loss; 1 sweep consists of 30 aircraft, the second consists
of 28 aircraft.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, nearly 400 B-26s and
A-20s attack airfields at Beaumont-sur-Oise and Chartres and bridges at
Vernon and Poissy; 108 P-47 and P-51 fighter-bombers hit a bridge at Oissel
and airfields at Creil, Cormeilles-en-Vesin and Evreux/Fauville; P-47s and
P-38s dive-bomb targets in NW Europe.
  425th Night Fighter Squadron, Ninth Air Force, arrives at Chormy Down,
England from the US with P-61s; first mission is in Jul 44.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Almost 700 bombers hit targets
in France and Yugoslavia; B-17s bomb the marshalling yard at St Etienne,
France; B-24s hit a bridge over the Var River, marshalling yards at Lyon/
Vaise, Lyon/Mouche, Chambery, Grenoble and Nice, France and troop
concentrations at Bihac, Yugoslavia; fighters escort the bombers and strafe
and dive-bomb the airfield at Donji Zemunik, Yugoslavia.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium bombers hit
railway targets in the Florence area and bomb roads in the battle area with
good results; light bombers hit Frascati; other medium bombers join fighter-
bombers in an assault against motor transport achieving wide-spread enemy
vehicle destruction, especially on the Rome-Bracciano road over which the
enemy is pouring reinforcements S toward the battle area.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): 45 B-25s, flying out of Makin
Island, attack Emidj Island, Jaluit Atoll, Marshall Islands. 9 B-25s from
Engebi Island fly a successful search mission for a downed B-25 crew in the
vicinity of Ponape and Pakin Islands, Caroline Islands; after locating the
survivors, later picked up by US Navy (USN) destroyer, the B-25s attack Pakin
and Ponape Islands with cannon and machinegun fire.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 24
P-39s and P-40s hit the Rabaul area while 12 B-25s bomb supply areas at
Talili Bay. 40+ P-39s and P-40s hit barges NW of Ballale Island, Solomon
Islands, supply areas and other targets at Porton, and piers at Ratsua and
Soraken, all on Bougainville Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, B-24s bomb
Biak Island while B-25s hit Wakde Island and nearby coastal areas; other
B-25s bomb a variety of targets on Aroe Island; 100+ A-20s, B-25s and
fighter-bombers continue to blast the coastal region around Wewak; villages
and gun positions on Hansa Bay are also hit; and the 340th Fighter Squadron,
348th Fighter Group, moves from Saidor to Wakde Island with P-47s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 13:58:00 CET
From:    Peter de Lange <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: REQUEST: WWII Airbone Operations

For Joe, Barry and others.
There were two airborne actions in Holland in May 1940

> Earlier Joe Boeke asked about other airborne operations in WWII.
>
> >Location:        Year:     Airborne:   ####s:     Defenders:
> >--------         ----      --------    -----      ---------
> >Rotterdam     May   1940      German      4,000      Dutch
>                             7th Flieger Division reinforced by Army 22nd Air
>                             Landing Division
> Barry
>
The first airborne action was to conquer Den Haag (the Hague) with the
Dutch Government and our Queen.
The Germans dropped their "Fallschirm division" (Paradivision) on
3 airfields surrounding Den Haag, Valkenburg in the North, Ypenburg
in the East and Ockenburg in the South (in the West is the Northsea)
This became an complete disaster for the Germans, their troops were
wiped out, the most taken prison and sent to England as POW.

The second airborne action, at the same time was to occupy the bridges
to Rotterdam, the "Moerdijkbrug" in the South and the "Maasbruggen" in
Rotterdam. The first German troops were flown in by waterplanes on the
river close to the bridges, the next waves on the occupied airfield
"Waalhaven" close to the "Maasbruggen". This was a "Fliegerdivision"
This was a partly success, the German army was unable to use the bridges
but the bridges itself were in German hands and they were not wiped out
after a 5 days war. The Dutch surrender ended these battle.

Remark: the Germans had two different types of airborne divisions,
1e landed primary with parachutes and secondary in planes.
2e landed complete in their planes on airfields, no parachutes.
I am not sure of their names, but I suppose something like:
Fallschirm divisie    -   Parachute division
Flieger    divisie    -   Aircraft  division
Peter de Lange.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 07:51:57 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Anglo-American ArmoUr deficient?

On Wed, 25 May 1994 12:04:24 -0400 Mr. Scott Hannon said:
>Generally it was the lightly armored US TDs that were quickest....what
>they lacked in armor (and thus weight) they made up in speed and agility.

Were they faster than a swinging turret?  What I've been getting at the whole
time is that "mobility" and "agility" are umbrella labels--by themselves
they suggest much w/o actually saying anything.  The other thing is that
this thread began as a direct comparison of the vehicles themselves.  Shifting
ground to the availability of supplies, quality of supporting units,
strategic & operational "mobility", etc., while interesting in themselves
muddy the waters if you want to compare vehicle vs. vehicle.

>BTW, I don't trust _Second Front_...some of those production figures
>look very odd to me.

I don't trust it either--the damned computer *won't* let me produce "inferior"
goods once the "superior" models come along--keeps re-converting the factories
I convert in the first place!  Makes it near impossible to bring order out
of the chaos of so many tank models in service & keep units up to strength.
Doesn't matter, as it doesn't defend Moscow strongly enough, but does reduce
the utility of "studying" with it.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 07:39:24 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: D-DAY FILM ON PBS

 'Watched Charles Guggenheim's documentary. McCullough reported that
only about 15% of the American troops were combat experienced. That
would mean that a Hell of an education was gotten by most. From babes
in Brighton, to puking your gutts out on the high seas, to Omaha beach.

Did anyone see the footage of that sick soldier staggering before his
turn on the ropes boarding the landing craft. He faced 11 more miles of
high seas in a craft that could turn the stomach of a pot-bellied stove.

:-|   :-\   :-/   :-|

'Bless em.

But this 15% brings me back to the question about training. For how long,
and with what resource was the average infantry private trained? Benning,
obviously, but what other forts where used/best? Certainly the Drill Sgts
weren't bound to the constraints of today. The docu showed the to-scale
beach models, etc.. -Al

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Wild, LAN Mgr.  Father of 1.5             Voice:          (401) 792-2611
ACC - Lippitt - URI  American Legion Post 102. FAX:            (401) 792-5479
Kingston, RI  02881                            Bitnet:           AWild@URIACC
                                               Internet: [email-masked]
Murphy's Paradox:

  Doing it the hard way is always easier.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 08:34:54 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [GEN] Computer games and simulations

On Wed, 25 May 1994 23:05:13 -0500 GEARHEART DRAKE ERICK said:
>I grew up playing PANZER LEADER and SQUAD LEADER.  In addition to THIRD
>REICH, does anyone know if any of these other two are on computer now?
>
>                                        Drake
Yes and no.  PanzerBlitz/Leader got redesigned & implemented on the U.Ill.
PLATO mainframe system in the mid-'70s; it is the best computer game I
have ever played, or rather, the best 2-player wargame I have ever played,
mediated by computer.  SSI did a similar version of PB/L called Kampfgruppe
in the early '80s for DOS which allows solitaire play.  Neither of these
are called PB/L, and both had to incorporate some re-design to avoid
potential copyright hassles.  But you will definitely get the essential
flavor from either, although you may find it hard to hook up with PLATO
these days.

ken koester
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 09:41:38 -0400
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: D-DAY FILM ON PBS

Alan Wild <[email-masked]> writes:

>  'Watched Charles Guggenheim's documentary. McCullough reported that
> only about 15% of the American troops were combat experienced. That
> would mean that a Hell of an education was gotten by most. From babes
> in Brighton, to puking your gutts out on the high seas, to Omaha beach.

This was a fantastic documentary!  The footage was uninterrupted and matched
exactly the commentary and interviews.  The audio dubbing matched the action
quite well and was not intrusive.  It was immensely provactive.  Our very own
John Ausland was listed in the credits!

I noticed in the footage that some of the US infantry troops' helmets had
markings painted on them.  There was a group with a flattened diamond
painted on the back of their helmets, another group with a dot and
semi-circle above the dot on the front, and yet another group with an
arc painted on the front.  I suspect that this was for unit recognition
but I had never heard of this.  Can anyone shed light on this?  John
Ausland, do you recall this practice?  Thanks.
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
Your crabs will leave you now!

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 09:46:53 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: The B-26 Marauder at Utah Beach

There's also a big writeup in yesterday's SMITHSONIAN about the WW-II
glider operations. Very long and informative.

                                                                Steve

                                                                Steve

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 06:55:30 -0700
From:    "Mark S. Leff" <[email-masked]>
Subject: All aboard?

Research for a series of day-by-day "countdown" pieces for D-Day next
week has uncovered a discrepancy re the actual date that troop and
supply loading was completed in southern England.

Cross Channel Attack on byrd (thanks, Larry) says everybody/thing was
loaded by June 3.  That checks with orders issued from fleet hq in
Dartmouth on 31 May calling June 1 L-Day and saying loading is to be
completed by 2400 hrs 3 June.

Yet anecdotal information (using "unofficial" unit histories) has at
least one motorized artillery unit boarding its landing craft on June 4.

Does anyone have other evidence that the boarding continued through the
fourth?

I subscribe to the list as <[email-masked]>, but replies to THIS
account <[email-masked]> will reach me faster.  Many thanks!

Cheers,
Mark

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 08:43:43 CDT
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: REQUEST: WWII Airbone Operations

The list left out Kreta or Crete--probably the largest, and last serious
effort on the part of the Germans to use airborne forces en-mass.

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 10:27:27 -0400
From:    William Newbold Ely III <[email-masked]>
Subject: Japanese-Americans' WWII Internment

        Hi to all! Can you do me a favor?  I am doing a thesis on the
internment of Japanese-Americans in three selected camps: Topaz, Minidoka
and Heart Mountain for the Geography Department at my university. I am
looking for a discussion or listserve or newsgroup devoted to this
topic.  Anyone know anything about this?
        Thanks, Newby!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 May 1994 13:03:24 PDT
From:    Darren Harlow
         <SGT=DARREN=S.=[email-masked]>
Subject: Is this list active???

I haven't recieved anything from this list in quite a while.  Is it still
active?  If so, someone please respond via private e-mail.

Thanks,

Sgt Darren Harlow - Computer Security
MCTSSA, Camp Pendleton, USMC
Internet: [email-masked]
or another less reliable & slower: [email-masked]
or a third: [email-masked]
Voice: Comm: (619) 725-2970  DSN (Autovon): 365-2970
Fax:   Comm: (619) 725-9512  DSN (Autovon): 365-9512
PGP Public key available upon request
"The views expressed are my own, and always will be..."

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 10:54:17 -0400
From:    Akira Takiguchi <[email-masked]>
Subject: TRV: Tiger II yellow circle cross solution ...

     Greetings, thanks to Joe and Bill I'm now back on the list.

     As most Panzer buffs know, the Tiger II at Aberdeen Proving
Ground wore a small yellow circle/white cross marking.  This has
been a problem for many years, and nobody have been able to show
the solution.  Even famed Tom Jentz wrote in his recent _King Tiger_
(Osprey) that this was sPzAbt (heavy tank bataalion) 509 insignia
WITHOUT SHOWING ANY EVIDENCE.  But recently Bruce Culver posted the
following message in AFV news, volume 29, No.1.

  ... These were painteed on by O.T.I.T. when it was prepared for
  shipment.  I had originally thought they might be sPzAbt.506
  markings, as that unit did use a cross motif on their Tiger Is.
  BIG MISTAKE! These markings are actually center of gravity
  (balance) points for loading the vehicle onto a flatcar.  The
  one on the bow plate wouldn't be too important, but the side
  makkings would be critical.  It marks the point at which the
  tank will pivot on the center roadwheel set, and the nose
  would move downward (if driven off a ramp).  Naturally, know
  exactly when this 68 ton monster going rear up or come down
  was important for the guys loading and unloading it.

     I tend to agree him, because photographic evidence (_Der Koenigstiger
2 band_, Podzun-Pallas Verlag, p49) suggests that this marking was
NOT painted, but was something like a detachable seal.
     What makes me a little uneasy is that I have NEVER seen similar
markings.  Anyone (especially those who are/were in Army) can challenge?
The marking is about 15cm-20cm in diameter.  Painted on upper hull front,
side, upper hull rear.
--
      Akira Takiguchi  VP, ATSON, Inc.  (a subsidiary of the Asahi Shimbun)
             CANAL TOWER  9-3 Nihonbashi-Koamicho Chuo-ku Tokyo 103  Japan
   +81 3 3666 2881(voice) 2882(fax)  EMAIL TO <[email-masked]>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 09:57:37 -0500
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Anglo-American ArmoUr deficient?

In message World War II Discussion List writes:
> Steven Pudlo writes...
> >       OK, I'll fess up my ignorance: What the !$## is a TD???
> > :-?Steve
>
> Steven makes a valid point - in that several of us are not
> walking dictionaries of military acronyms. Is there such a list
> available on the net (I know there is one for naval terms...)

I need that list.

Geez.  We've got an airplane now that whenever I refer to the nose, I have to
call it a bow and instead of chalking the wheels, we have to look for an
anchor.

This is going to take some getting used to.  :-)

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 10:23:47 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Kelly's Heroes for real?!

Steve,

     I know a few WWII vets who laughed (hard) at KH.  Ask
them if that was typical of American soldiers in the ETO,
though, and I would suspect they would become *very* unpleasant!

     Can anyone *imagine* what Patton would have done, if he had
caught some of his "troopers" up to such mischief?  (Shudder)

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 10:34:37 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Clinton & D-Day:  Oxford avoidance  :-)

Has anyone noticed the upset about President Clinton deciding to
  give his Britain/D-Day speech at CAMBRIDGE, rather than his old
  alma mater (Oxford), as planned?

Apparently he (and/or his PR folks) do not want to remind anyone
  of his own un-dutiful (anti-Vietnam) antics as a student at
  Oxford.

The sublime hypocrisy of it all is boggling ... and *highly*
  entertaining.  :-)

He really needn't feel all that vulnerable, though:  The WWII
  generation is more responsible for (or defeat in) Indochina
  than credit for our victory in WWI (which was thanks to the
  integrity/efficiency of the World War *One* generation).

Let's see ... We have the WWII generation to thank for the budget
  deficit, the social/intellectual/etc. disintegration of our
  society, media dictatorship, (Indochina), ...  What else?

(Yes, they got us to the moon, with the help/technological
  creativity/leadership of a few *German* fellows....)

Descending *deeeeep* into my bunker, in anticipation of a
  *possible* counter-barrage....

Lou Coatney, Western Illinois University Library (til 30Jn94)

     Did I hear a sacred cow ... bleat?  :-)

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 08:47:44 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: NEWS - "Double Cross" counterspy, LtCol "Tar" Robertson dies.

Lt-Col T.A. "Tar" Robertson, has died in England, aged 84. He was the
architect of the "double cross system", one of the most successful
counter-spy operations fo WW2.
AS well as turning virtually all German agents in Britain, Robertson's
section of MI5 Counter-intelligence used them as double agents to send
misleading information to Germany. He created a special unit, the Wireless
Board, to supply inaccurate information to the Abwehr, German military
intelligence.
One of Lt.Col Robertson's subordinates, J.C. Masterman, chaired the
specialist sub-committee set up in January 1941 to co-ordinate the
XX Committee (Double Cross) activities. AS head of 1(a) Section, "B"
Division, MI5, controlled more than 40 German double-agents.
LtCol Robertson, who was first commissioned into the Seaforth Highlanders,
left MI5 after WW2, to head security for GCHQ, then retired to become a
farmer.  Always modest and humorous, LtCol Robertson was admired and liked
by all who worked with him. Long before his death, "Tar" had become a
legendary British counter-spy.
        -- Sidney Allinson.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 10:45:14 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Anglo-American ArmoUr deficient?

Ken, Scott, et al:

     Another advantage of (at least) *American* tanks (which I
don't think has been mentioned yet):

     Power-operated turrets, which enabled our tanks to get the
first shotS in, in most encounters.  True, many shots didn't
penetrate, but I'd certainly hate to be in a Panzer turret
taking large-round hits, while my gunner cranked ... and
cranked ... and cranked ...  :-)

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 11:51:02 EDT
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: REQUEST: WWII Airbone Operations

Tim,

The list did not leave that operation off.  The Germans called it
Merkur (Operation Mercury).

Barry

>The list left out Kreta or Crete--probably the largest, and last serious
>effort on the part of the Germans to use airborne forces en-mass.
>
>************************************************************************
>*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
>*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
>*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
>*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
>*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
>************************************************************************

Barrett F. Lowe               RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, West Point  (e-mail:  [email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 11:53:22 EDT
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: REQUEST: WWII Airbone Operations

Peter,

My histories show that the original German parachute division was
called the 7th Flieger Division and this was later changed to Fallschirmjager
Division (hence 1st, 2nd 3rd, etc. Fallschirmjager Divisions).

The 22nd Airlanding Division was called 22. Luftlande Division.

I think some of the confusion may have to do with the translations.

The Hermann Goering Division was officially called FallschrimPanzer Divison
even though there were no parachute qualified troops.

Barry

Barrett F. Lowe               RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, West Point  (e-mail:  [email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 10:57:20 -0700
From:    John Holtz <[email-masked]>
Subject: Tank Destroyers (et.al.)

For a detailed discussion of U.S. tank destroyer doctrine in WW2, may I
direct you to "Seek, Strike, and Destroy:  U.S. Army Tank Destroyer
Doctrine in World War II."  Gabel, Christopher R. (Leavenworth Papers,
no. 12, Sept. 1985).

On another list, Gary Charbonneau provided a very succinct synopsis of
what factors should be considered when weighing the merits of tanks in
WW2.  In a nutshell, the Sherman had to be moved, by sea, thousands of
miles and then maintained at the end of this extended supply line;
continental tanks were spared from this requirement.

As to its mobility vis-a-vis the Panther, the Sherman
is lighter, thus accelerates more quickly, had a much faster
traversing turret, and its smaller size permitted it to operate in
built-up areas and constricted terrain that the larger Panther (with its
long barreled 75mm) found all but impassable.  It also did not tear up
the roads as badly as its much heavier opponent.  All of which helped it
avoid the head-on types of encounters that the better gunned, more
heavily armored German PzKw Vs and VIs could dominate.

--
John W. Holtz, Asst. Professor       INTERNET: [email-masked]
Sangamon State University Library       PHONE: (217) 786-6633
Springfield, IL  62794-9243

  > Opinions subject to change upon reflection or dissipation <

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 10:51:56 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: *Geography* thesis on Nisei internment?!

OK, Newby, I'll bite:

     How (in the politically correct ... ) can the Nisei
internments be a topic appropriate to a *geography* thesis?
                     :-)

     Incidentally, we had quite a row (either here or on MILHST-L)
about how they should *not* be referred to as "concentration
camps", with the exterminatory connotations of that term, so be
advised.

Lou Coatney, who has just finished my thesis on the significance
  of the Katyn Massacre (1940) to the West at Western Illinois
  University (in Macomb) --  *History* thesis, that is.  :-)

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 12:05:53 EDT
From:    "Archie T. Smith" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Clinton & D-Day:  Oxford avoidance  :-)

MSLRC...
                    -
                  -   -
                -       -
              -    x x    -   x    x x
            -     x x x x   - x   x    x
          -      x    x x x - x  x
        -               x x - x x     0  0     0     0000    0      0   0     0
      I I                 xxxxxx      0 0     0 0    0  0   0  0   0  0 0 0 0 0
      I_I                  xxxx       00     00000   0000  0    0 0    00  0  0
                            xx        0  0   0   0   0  0   0  0   0  0 0     0
                                      0   0  0   0   0000     0      0  0     0

Archie T Smith Instructor
East Carolina University
Sociology
Brewster B-412 Greenville, NC 27858 (919) 757-6147
Bitnet: SOASMITH@ECUVM1 Internet: [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 17:30:00 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Kelly's Heroes for real?!

Lou "The Kat" Coatney writes...
>
>     I know a few WWII vets who laughed (hard) at KH.  Ask
>them if that was typical of American soldiers in the ETO,
>though, and I would suspect they would become *very* unpleasant!
>
>     Can anyone *imagine* what Patton would have done, if he had
>caught some of his "troopers" up to such mischief?  (Shudder)
>

Well, my questions were asked very tongue-in-cheek...
somehow, I found the yarn more believable coming from
entrepreneurial US soldiers than probably any other nationality :-)

steve

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 11:35:50 -0700
From:    John Holtz <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Kelly's Heroes for real?!

"Kelly's Heroes" is hardly REAL in terms of a unit freelancing its way
into a bank job.  However, the character types seem possible given the
ad hoc nature of the vastly expanded, conscript U.S. Army of the 1940s.
James Lucas, Edwin Hoyt (et.al.) have attempted to illustrate the
nature, motivations, and characters of men in combat and those depicted
in "KH" are not completely beyond the pale.  Hey, and where else can you
see a decent mock-up of a Tiger I and a column of Shermans?

jwh

--
John W. Holtz, Asst. Professor       INTERNET: [email-masked]
Sangamon State University Library       PHONE: (217) 786-6633
Springfield, IL  62794-9243

  > Opinions subject to change upon reflection or dissipation <

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 12:53:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Normandy

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Navy News Service - NAVNEWS BY EMAIL
-----------------------------------------------------------------
NAVY NEWS SERVICE - 25 MAY 94 - NAVNEWS 031/94
     TABLE OF CONTENTS FOR NAVNEWS 031/94
   Around the Fleet
NNS327.  USS George Washington JTG Departs for D-Day Commemoration
   Short Splices
NNS333.  WWII Veteran's Embark Aboard USS Normandy for D-Day Cruise
                                  -USN-
NNS327.  USS George Washington JTG Departs for D-Day Commemoration
NORFOLK (NNS) -- More than 12,000 Sailors and Marines comprising
elements of the USS George Washington Joint Task Group left their
homeports and bases May 20 for a six-month Mediterranean
deployment.  The deployment will be the first for the aircraft
carrier USS George Washington (CVN 73), which was commissioned July
4, 1992.
     The joint task group (JTG), commanded by RADM Alexander J.
Krekich, Commander, Cruiser Destroyer Group Two, includes units of
the USS George Washington carrier battle group and the USS Guam
(LPH 9) amphibious ready group.  The JTF will relieve USS Saratoga,
currently in the Mediterranean, which left in early January.
     Prior to arriving in the Mediterranean, USS George Washington
will participate in the 50th anniversary of D-Day in the United
Kingdom and France.  As part of the commemorations, President Bill
Clinton will join Secretary of the Navy John Dalton and Chief of
Naval Operations ADM Mike Boorda aboard USS George Washington and
travel with the ship across the English Channel, re-tracing the
path of the Allied invasion force from England to France.
     USS George Washington and the JTG ships will anchor off the
Normandy coast of France along with other naval ships from a
variety of nations, and will serve as the backdrop for the
commemorative events occurring ashore.
By CINCLANTFLT Public Affairs
                                  -USN-
         Short Splices
                                  -USN-
NNS333.  WWII Veterans Embark Aboard USS Normandy for D-Day Cruise
NORFOLK (NNS) -- Nine World War II veterans embarked aboard USS
Normandy (CG 60) for an historic trans-Atlantic crossing in order
to participate in D-Day commemorative events in the United Kingdom
and France.
     Of this group representing the Army, Navy, Marine Corps, Air
Force and Merchant Marine, five veterans fought at Normandy Beaches
on D-Day, four at Utah and one at Omaha.  Three of the veterans
have family members who now serve aboard USS Normandy.
     The veterans will participate in World War II commemorative
events to observe the 50th anniversary of the D-Day invasion.
By USS Normandy Public Affairs
                                  -USN-

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 12:50:58 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Clinton & D-Day:  Oxford avoidance  :-)

On Thu, 26 May 1994 10:34:37 -0500 Louis R. Coatney said:
>He really needn't feel all that vulnerable, though:  The WWII
>  generation is more responsible for (or defeat in) Indochina
>  than credit for our victory in WWI (which was thanks to the
>  integrity/efficiency of the World War *One* generation).
>
>Let's see ... We have the WWII generation to thank for the budget
>  deficit, the social/intellectual/etc. disintegration of our
>  society, media dictatorship, (Indochina), ...  What else?

Are we supposed to take this seriously?  The first paragraph doesn't even
parse.  And I would expect better reasoning from a professional historian in
the second.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 12:54:15 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Anglo-American ArmoUr deficient?

On Thu, 26 May 1994 10:45:14 -0500 Louis R. Coatney said:
>     Power-operated turrets, which enabled our tanks to get the
>first shotS in, in most encounters.  True, many shots didn't
>penetrate, but I'd certainly hate to be in a Panzer turret
>taking large-round hits, while my gunner cranked ... and
>cranked ... and cranked ...  :-)

Well, I read somewhere that it took an average of 13 hits to knock out
a tank in WWII, so I don't know that I would be all that alarmed (-:

Does anyone have a comparison of the profiles, both full and in defilade,
of the most common WWII AFVs?  (Armored Fighting Vehicles)

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 12:06:08 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Clinton/D-Day typo correction

That should be:
   ... than credit for our victory in WWI*I* (which was ...

Lou

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 13:11:06 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: *Geography* thesis on Nisei internment?!

On Thu, 26 May 1994 10:51:56 -0500 Louis R. Coatney said:
>     Incidentally, we had quite a row (either here or on MILHST-L)
>about how they should *not* be referred to as "concentration
>camps", with the exterminatory connotations of that term, so be
>advised.

Or, rather, how the inhabitants themselves referred to them as "concentration
camps".

ken koester
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 12:03:48 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Archie's KABOOM!

Thanks, Archie.  :-)  Have you seen/played the computer/arcade game?

Lou

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 13:25:20 -0400
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Anglo-American ArmoUr deficient?

I was going through the "In Action" series, searching for info on German
turrets and if they could be power-driven (I failed to find anything) when
I came upon this interesting tidbit from "Panther in Action" by Bruce Culver:

        "Despite its [Panther's] complexity and rather high manufacturing
cost, the Panther was a very successful design and is considered by many
ordinance experts to be the finest medium tank used in World War II.
Later during the war, its relative complexity and gasoline engine were
disadvantages, yet production continued well in 1945, and the vehicle
gave an excellent account of itself right up to the end.

        "An unofficial rule of thimb in the US Army was that it took
five Shermans to knock out a single Panther.  The Germans built 4814
Panther tanks; the US built 52,000 Shermans."
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
It's a Mark 6!  And we got her by the ass!

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 11:01:41 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Kelly's Heroes for real?!

Lou...
        Your comment, to the effect that "soldiers" in KE was laughable
is the most apt. yet
        KH is evidently a popular entertainment movie, but a documentary,
it ain't.
        As fow what General Patton's reaction would have been -- he used to
insist on neckties, shaving, and steel helmets worn at all times in combat.
Very sensible, well, the *helmets* part, anyway.  :-)  AS for shaving
whenever possible, it is a subtle but very real aspect of maintaining
troops' morale in battle.  In real life, scruffy does not a good soldier
make.
Regards -- Sidney.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 14:21:45 -0400
From:    Steven VEST <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Clinton & D-Day: Oxford avoidance :-)

Give it a rest will you Lou?

==========================[email-masked]===========================
= Steven Vest: Head, Off Campus Lib. Services: Nova University, Ft. Ldl, FL =
="You know that these are not the best of times.                           =
=                But they're the only times I've ever known."    Billy Joel=
================No statements made here reflect Nova University==============

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 11:36:54 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Anglo-American ArmoUr deficient?

There are two excellent books just out, written by David Fletcher, Librarian
of the Bovington Tank Museum (UK).
        THE GREAT TANK SCANDAL
Which was published last year.
His new, and broader study, is:
        THE UNIVERSAL TANK -- British Armour In The Second World War,
available from HMSO, London   (Her Majesty's Stationery Office)
        Fletcher mentions thar when Gen Bernard Montgomery took over the
8th Army, he discussed the idea of a single tank which would be easier to
produce, operate, repair, and maintain.
        The initial result, was adoption of the American "Sherman" --
thicker armour, 14lbr. gun, and two diesel engines.
        Fletcher's books are *must read* for tank enthusiasts.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 13:33:54 CDT
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Standard US Helmet Paint

The standard fromat for US helmet paint is as follows:

Officers: vertical white stripe on the back of the helmet, and rank
painted on the front of the helmet.

NCO's: horizontal white stripe painted on the back--rank insignia
sometimes on the front.

There were a lot of variations of helmet paint in the US Army in
WWII--the standard in the US Army was variations on a theme---other than
rank insignia (where present) unit insignia was painted--I believe 2nd
Rangers had an orange diamond on the back of their helmets.  Other units
had items painted on their helmets.  Most of it was done at a local
level and it usually was determined by the unit commander's tolerance
for such items.

I'm sure some soldiers hated it for making them more visible and lost or
repainted their helmets, some new troops would arrive unpainted and
stay that way--it just depends--standardization in the US is a rare
occurance among US units in combat in Europe during this period.

My WWII helmet has a verticle white stripe and a white lieutenant's bar
on the front.

TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 14:35:11 EDT
From:    Eliot K Friedman <[email-masked]>
Subject: Clinton's D-Day/UK Speech

Lou Coatney wrote>

> Has anyone noticed the upset about President Clinton deciding to
>   give his Britain/D-Day speech at CAMBRIDGE, rather than his old
>   alma mater (Oxford), as planned?
>
> Apparently he (and/or his PR folks) do not want to remind anyone
>   of his own un-dutiful (anti-Vietnam) antics as a student at
>   Oxford.

Was it any more undutiful (unpatriotic?) to oppose US government policy
on Vietnam in the 1960's than it is today to oppose US government policy
on abortion, gun control, health care, or any other issue?  Or is free
speech a right limited to those of us wise enough to agree with you?

Although I claim no inside information on site selection for Clinton's
speech (I didn't even know he was going), I doubt Cambridge was chosen
for the reason you suggest.  Most Americans are fully aware that Clinton
actively oppposed the war, and it didn't stop them from electing him.
I'm sure that Clinton's people have more important tasks than obscuring
his draft history.

> The sublime hypocrisy of it all is boggling ... and *highly*
>   entertaining.  :-)

Yes, your hypocrisy is boggling, but not at all entertaining.

El

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 15:04:25 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Kelly's Heroes for real?!

Sidney said,...

>        Your comment, to the effect that "soldiers" in KE was laughable
>is the most apt. yet
>        KH is evidently a popular entertainment movie, but a documentary,
>it ain't.
>        As fow what General Patton's reaction would have been -- he used to
>insist on neckties, shaving, and steel helmets worn at all times in combat.
>Very sensible, well, the *helmets* part, anyway.  :-)  AS for shaving
>whenever possible, it is a subtle but very real aspect of maintaining
>troops' morale in battle.  In real life, scruffy does not a good soldier
>make.
>Regards -- Sidney.

All of that is true, and although gas was not as threatening back then,
today lack of a shave means no seal on your mask. -Al

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Wild, LAN Mgr.  Father of 1.5             Voice:          (401) 792-2611
ACC - Lippitt - URI  American Legion Post 102. FAX:            (401) 792-5479
Kingston, RI  02881                            Bitnet:           AWild@URIACC
                                               Internet: [email-masked]
Murphy's Paradox:

  Doing it the hard way is always easier.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 14:02:18 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Give Clinton a rest on D-Day?  :-)

No way, Steve Vest!  This is a classic example of the (moral)
  relevance of history to the present.  If you noticed, there
  were some very pungent observations about Clinton by WWII vets
  who called into the CNN program on D-Day.

Katyn is another example of the longlasting implications/
  significance/relevance of such historical episodes.

You thought WWII-L was just for trivia, nostalgia, and buffing?
  Get real.

(Some of you folks are *really* touchy.  A few months in Alaska
  would do you good.  The mosquitos are *far* more formidable
  gadflies than *I* am.  :-)  )

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 14:09:02 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Clinton's D-Day/UK Speech

El,

     I think it was in U.S. NEWS I saw the questions about
the possible political motives for the "change of venue" speech
switch.

     Considering that anti-Vietnam agitation led to the betrayal
of the Indochinese and our own war dead, I would say that it
was considerably more serious/objectionable than taking one side
or the other on health reform.

     You find my opinion ... upsetting?  :-)

Lou

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 12:28:36 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: REQUEST: WWII Airbone Operations

You might want to add a few other airborne landings to complete your list:
        Operation PLUNDER, March 23/24, 1945.
        Mass attack across the Rhine River by Allied Forces, including
the last great attack by massed parachute troops -- British, Canadian, American.
        Several others, large and small, could be included, though your i
interest seems mainly in German airborne operations.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 15:21:21 -0400
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: ADMIN: Clinton relevance

        I'm willing to let this topic run its course provided that people
check their politics and tempers at the door.  Please don't turn this into
a free-for-all.  Thanks.
--
Joe Barone, WWII-L listowner
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 15:24:35 -0400
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: ADMIN: Excerpt from WWII-L introduction

        Some subjects have been beaten to death or evoke strong emotional
responses.  However, I realize that they'll come up from time to time.
If you feel that the following topics must be addressed, ensure that your
wording is precise; consider the responses that it might evoke; and use
the topics flag.  It is not my duty to censor any pertinent topic from this
list, but these topics should be handled carefully.  Failure to do so may
result in "flame wars" which will *not* be tolerated on this list.  The
mailing list suffered through one flame war pertaining to the second topic
below.  It nearly killed the list so I am loath to see if the list can
tolerate another.  Also, in regards to the Holocaust, there is another
mailing-list, HOLOCAUS-L, devoted to the topic so readers should subscribe
to that list for a more thorough discussion of that topic.  The current
list of topics are:

        1. The Holocaust.
        2. Internment of Japanese-Americans in the US.
--
Joe Barone, WWII-L listowner
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 12:37:18 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Anglo-American ArmoUr deficient?

Ke, Lou etc...
        There's a thorough review of good and bad points of tanks and
AFVs, usuing first-hand information from unit War Diaries, in:
        THE UNIVERSAL TANK, by David Fletcher, HMSO, London.
Fletcher is Librarian of the Bovington Tank Museum (UK) so he knows
his subject well.
Regards - Sidney.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 15:33:20 -0500
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: WWII AIRBORNE OPS

You can add to your list a battalion-size drop (800 men) by the Germans
on Italian HQ at Monte Rotondo outside Rome following Italian surrender
in Sept '43 (it ended badly with 300 paratroopers lost and the rest trapped
by Italian ground forces).  Also, in response to a question earlier, the
Italians did carry out one full-sized air drop, against Greek island of
Cephalonia late April '41 (rather anticlimatic, the Greeks holed up and
stayed put until the Germans landed by sea).  Finally, I believe I saw
reference to the two naval and one army paratroop drops by the
Japanese during the conquest of Indonesia in early '42 (naval drops were
at Palembang and Koepang, I forget where the Army drop was-- don't have
access to my sources at the moment), but did I also see listed the
Japanese attempt against U.S. airfields early in the Leyte campaign '44?
I can get details if you need them...

P.S. to John Holtz, re: Kelly's Heroes--  that wasn't a mock-up.  Several
war movies shot in Yugoslavia in the '70's apparently include a real Tiger I,
so they must have had at least one running back then (check out partisan
epics "Battle of the Neretva" w/Yul Brenner and "The Fifth Offensive"
w/Richard Burton.  A lot of authentic WWII German, Russian, Italian, and
U.S. equipment apparently soldiered on with the Yugoslavs decades after
the war (you still see Serbs wielding MG42's in recent news shots).  For
instance, for a real authentic-looking take on the Eastern Front see Sam
Peckinpah's "Cross of Iron"-- every piece of equipment authentic except
that the Soviets have SKS carbines (a Mosin-Nagant sniper's rifle makes
a brief appearance).

Hey, while I'm here flaming, can anyone suggest a good source on Italian
armor in WWII written from the Italian side. I'll plow through the
Italian as long as I can get my hands on it.  Specifics on Ariete,
Littorio, and Centauro Divisions in North Africa especially sought.
I'd take a good English-language source on the subject if there is one
out there as well....   thanks in advance

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 15:37:58 -0400
From:    Kevin Kamphaus <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: OddBall

One thing that seemed "odd" to me was Oddball. Oddball and the theme song of
the picture seemed to come from the late 60's early 70's and not from the 40's.
Using the terms "man", references to negative wave etc reek of the 60's. GrantedI'm only 37 and didn't live then, but from what I've seen this seems to be true.

Comments?????

Kevin Kamphaus
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 15:47:58 -0400
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Anglo-American ArmoUr deficient?

>
>Well, I read somewhere that it took an average of 13 hits to knock out
>a tank in WWII, so I don't know that I would be all that alarmed (-:
>
>Does anyone have a comparison of the profiles, both full and in defilade,
>of the most common WWII AFVs?  (Armored Fighting Vehicles)

I know I am a a couple of years off but I just finished reading "Battle
Tactics of the Civil War" by Paddy Griffith (sp?) and at Gettysburg it
worked out to over 200 balls were fired per casualty.  Intresting?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka                                         National Warplane Museum
Cornell University                                 Geneseo, New York
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 15:57:51 EDT
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor,
         Marist Coll" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re[2]: WEAP: Anglo-American ArmoUr deficient?

>Just a thought/question: How much did the lack of German tanks mobility
>during the last years of the war have to do with the scarcity of petrol?

Weren't the Germans trying to make motor fuel out of coal at the end
of the war? I seem to recall some talk of the US using our coal
supply to make motor fuel during the Oil crisis of the early 1970s,
based upon the German WWII experiments.

Jonah Triebwasser
Adjunct Instructor
Marist College
Dyson Building (Adult Education)
Poughkeepsie, New York12601
Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
E-Mail: [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 16:22:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Clinton & D-Day: Oxford avoidance :-)

 >Give it a rest will you Lou?
 >
 >==========================[email-masked]===========================
 >= Steven Vest: Head, Off Campus Lib. Services: Nova University, Ft. Ldl, FL =
 >="You know that these are not the best of times.                           =
 >=                But they're the only times I've ever known."    Billy Joel=
 >================No statements made here reflect Nova University==============
 >

As a person who grew up during WWII, I concur!

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 15:46:40 CDT
From:    Robert Hohlt <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: D-DAY FILM ON PBS

Did any of you stick around for the George Marshall story last
night after the Charles Guggenheim documentary?

I guess I really didn't know who this General Marshall was until
last night.

Both good shows.

Robert Hohlt, Jr.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 16:50:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Airshows in NE USA

           AIRSHOWS IN THE NORTHEASTERN UNITED STATES, 1994
                       ISSUE 4, 26 MAY 94

This is the latest list of airshows in the Northeastern U.S. that I have
been able to compose.  The list is sorted by state and any military aerobatic
team appearing is noted.  Also noted is any known telephone numbers; please
call the telephone number listed for further information. I will gladly
update this list with any additions, changes and/or deletions.  Just e-mail
me at [email-masked]

REASON FOR REISSUE
------------------
1. Add Owl's Head, Maine
2. Add five shows at Rhinebeck, New York
3. Change the telephone number for NAS South Weymouth, Massachusetts.

CONNECTICUT
-----------
Meriden: Aug 28, 14th Annual Police Union Airshow, Meriden Markham MAP,
  (203) 238-1911
New Haven: Sep 10-11, New Haven Airfest (203) 481-3769

DELAWARE
--------
New Castle: Oct 8-9, EAA East Coast Fly-In, Greater Wilmington Arpt featuring
  Mid Atlantic Air Museum

MAINE
-----
Bingham: Sep 24-25, 25th Gadabout Gaddis Fly-In, (207) 672-4135 or
  (207) 672-3978
Owls Head: Aug 6-7, Owls Head Annual Rally & Aerobatic Show featuring Julie
  Clark's American Aero

MARYLAND
--------
College Park: Sep 17-18, College Park Air Fair featuring Mid Atlantic Air
  Museum/Laser Airshows, (301) 864-5844
Georgetown: May 27, featuring US Army Golden Knights
Middle River: Sep 17-18, Chesapeake Airshow featuring Bob & Annette Hosking,
  (410) 686-2233
Ocean City: Sep 23-26, Gathering of Heroes, (410) 213-2471

MASSACHUSETTS
-------------
Andover: May 30, featuring US Army Golden Knights
NAS South Weymouth: Jun 11-12, Air Expo '94 featuring USAF Thunderbirds/US
  Army Golden Knights/Toyota AirSports/Redtail Aviation, (617) 786-2715
Otis ANGB: Aug 13-14, Cape Cod Air Show featuring US Army Golden Knights/Six
  of Diamonds Flight Team/Clearance Speal/Larry Rutt/G-M Productions, (508)
  540-1052
Westover AFB: Aug 27-28, Great New England Air Show featuring CAF Snowbirds
  /US Army Golden Knights, (413) 557-3587

NEW HAMPSHIRE
-------------
Concord: Jun 25-26, International Air Festival featuring US Army Golden
  Knights/Red Baron Squadron/Patty Wagstaff Airshows/Redtail Aviation, (603)
  225-4861

NEW JERSEY
----------
Atlantic City: Jun 2-3 featuring US Army Golden Knights
McGuire AFB: Oct 1-2 featuring USN Blue Angels
Millville: Jun 11-12, Millville Army Airfield featuring Mid Atlantic Air
  Museum
Pittstown: Aug 5-7, Magic of Alexandria
Readington: Jul 29-31, NJ Festival of Ballooning, Solberg Airport (908)
  534-5253
Sussex: Aug 26-28, Sussex Airshow featuring Mid Atlantic Air Museum/Laser
  Airshows/French Connection/Bud Light Laser/Jim Franklin/Patty Wagstaff
  Airshows/Six of Diamonds Flight Team/Oscar Boesch/Red Baron Squadron/Yankee
  Air Force, (201) 875-7337

NEW YORK
--------
Batavia: Aug 20-21, 1941 Wings Of Eagles Airshow featuring National Warplane
  Museum/Six of Diamonds Flight Team, (716) 243-0690
Brooklyn: Jul 2-4 featuring US Army Golden Knights
Elmira: Jul 2-3, New York State Internation Air Show/Air Festival featuring
  US Army Golden Knights/Patty Wagstaff Airshows/Oscar Boesch/TORA TORA TORA/
  Shockwave, (607) 732-9898
Monticello: Jul 30-31, Sullivan County Air Show, (914) 794-2211
Plattsburgh: Jul 16-17, Team Plattsburgh Air Show (518) 565-5923
Poughkeepsie: Oct 1-2, Autumn Warbird Fly-In featuring National Warplane
  Museum, (914) 462-2600
Rhinebeck: Jun 19, Cole Palen's Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome "Cole Palen
  Dedication & Memorial Air Show" (914) 758-8610
Rhinebeck: Jul 9-10, Cole Palen's Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome "Fleet & Travel
  Air Fly In Classic Golden Age Biplanes" (914) 758-8610
Rhinebeck: Jul 16-17, Cole Palen's Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome "de Havilland
  Tiger Moth Fly-In Great British Trainer" (914) 758-8610
Rhinebeck: Aug 20-21, Cole Palen's Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome "Pioneer Weekend
  Special Pioneer Display-Pioneer Flights" (914) 758-8610
Rhinebeck: Sep 10-11, Cole Palen's Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome "28th Annual
  Mid-Hudson Radio Control Model Meet" (914) 758-8610
Schenectady: Sep 10-11, Northeast Flight '94 Airshow featuring USAF
  Thunderbirds/Red Baron Squadron/Clearance Speal/Mike Goulian/Northeast
  Airshows/Larry Rutt/Redtail Aviation/Piper Aviation Museum/National
  Concession Co/G-M Productions, (518) 377-2191

PENNSYLVANIA
------------
Allentown: Sep 17, Queen City Airport Day featuring Mid Atlantic Air Museum
Avoca: May 28-29, Wilkes Barre/Scranton International Airshow, featuring USAF
  Thunderbirds/US Army Golden Knights/Mid Atlantic Air Museum/Larry Rutt,
  (717)-655-3077
Erie: Jul 16-17, Erie International Airshow featuring Mid Atlantic Air Museum/
  Larry Rutt/Redtail Aviation, (814) 833-7343
Franklin: Jun 25-26, Wings Over Venango featuring Dave Dacy Airshows/US Jet
  Team/Dan McCue/Susan Dacy/Jim Tomasino/National Warplane Museum, (814)
  432-5333
Johnstown: Aug 6-7, Cambria County Airshow '94 (814-255-2048)
Latrobe: Sep 3-4, Westmoreland County Airshow featuring USAF Thunderbirds/US
  Army Golden Knights, (412) 539-8100
Meadville: Sep 17-18, Meadville Air Expo, (814) 724-6000
Mifflintown: Jun 26, Liberty Weekend
NAS Willow Grove: Jun 18-19, Sounds of Freedom, featuring USAF Thunderbirds/
  Toyota AirSports, (215) 443-6035
Philadelphia: Jul 1-6, Confederate Air Force
Quakertown: Jun 3-5, Bucks County Balloon & Air Festival, (215) 997-9519
Toughkenamon: Jun 11-12, New Garden Airshow featuring Mid Atlantic Air
  Museum
Williamsport: Jun 25-26, Lycoming County Airshow featuring US Army Golden
  Knights/Laser Airshows/Larry Rutt, (717) 322-2426

RHODE ISLAND
------------
North Kingstown: Jun 4-5, Rhode Island National Guard Open House featuring
  Redtail Aviation/Larry Rutt, (401) 886-1423

VERMONT
-------
Burlington: Sep 17-18, Burlington International Charity Airshow featuring USN
  Blue Angels/US Army Golden Knights, (802) 496-3473

VIRGINIA
--------
Langley AFB: Aug 6, IFW Community Appreciation Day featuring US Army Golden
  Knights
Manassas: Sep 17-18, Manassas Air Show Classic '94 featuring US Army Golden
  Knights, (703) 361-0575
NAS Oceana: Sep 10-11, Open House featuring CAF Snowbirds/Sky Hawks/Shockwave/
  French Connection/Formula Air Racing Assoc/USPA Freedom Team, (804) 433-3131
Norfolk: Jul 16-17, Town Point Air Show "Wings Over Water", (804) 627-7809

WEST VIRGINIA
-------------
Beckley: Aug 6-7, Raleigh County Air Fair featuring US Army Golden Knights/
  Bob & Annette Hosking, (304) 255-0476
Charleston: Sep 10-11, Wings Over Charleston
Huntington: Jun 4-5, Tri-State Anti Drug Airshow featuring USN Blue Angels
  (614-377-9989)
.fi

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 22:52:15 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Anglo-American ArmoUr deficient?

On Wed, 25 May 1994, David Rising wrote:

> Just a thought/question: How much did the lack of German tanks mobility
> during the last years of the war have to do with the scarcity of petrol?

Other factors were probably allied air superiority over the battlefield,
disruption of supply lines, inferior quality of parts made in damp
underground factories and/or by slave labour, and lack of spare parts. The
strength of German tank divisions seems to have decreased continously
during the war; from an offical number of 240 in May 1940, to 160 for
Barbarossa, and often less than 60 after D-day. Thus must have made their
deployment less efficient. And to add just a suspicion: probably
maintenance suffered also, when technicians were lost in combat and
replacements were hastily trained or absent.

A related question: There seems to have been a number of Shermans in
Soviet service, probably lend-leased? I remember a photograph of a Russian
tank commander in front of a Sherman. How did the USSR rate the Sherman?
Why did they bother to get it --- they had the T-34, and seem to have had
enough production capacity? Does ayone know? A reverse lend-lease of T-34s
to the western allies would have been more sensible -- not that Stalin
would have allowed that.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 19:11:52 -0400
From:    "Robert F. Kieran" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hermann Goering Fallschrim Panzer Divison

Barry Lowe writes:

> The Hermann Goering Division was officially called FallschrimPanzer Divison
> even though there were no parachute qualified troops.

No, Barry, I think this means the Panzers were Airborne qualified. ;^)

                                                Bob Kieran
                                                [email-masked]

P.S. Please note the smiley, folks; Bear is right, the title is an
honorific.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 19:19:07 -0400
From:    "Robert F. Kieran" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Kelly's Heroes for real?!

>From: Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>

>As fow what General Patton's reaction would have been -- he used to
>insist on neckties, shaving, and steel helmets worn at all times in combat.
>Very sensible, well, the *helmets* part, anyway.  :-)  AS for shaving
>whenever possible, it is a subtle but very real aspect of maintaining
>troops' morale in battle.  In real life, scruffy does not a good soldier
>make.

Sidney,

     I think another primary reason for shaving was that it lessened
the probability of infection in the event of a facial wound. As for
ties, I think they make wonderful tourniquets and bandages. ;^)

                                                Bob Kieran
                                                [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 19:28:34 -0400
From:    Steven VEST <[email-masked]>
Subject: Clinton/D-Day (Forgive me Lou for I'm about to sin.)

>
>      Considering that anti-Vietnam agitation led to the betrayal
> of the Indochinese and our own war dead, I would say that it
> was considerably more serious/objectionable than taking one side
> or the other on health reform.
>
>      You find my opinion ... upsetting?  :-)

O.K. Lou that tears it.  I've tried to be reasonable about this but
you've finally gotten under my skin.

I don't find your opinion "upsetting".  I've learned to consider the
source.  I DO find it simplistic, myopic, non-sensible, and...listen very
very closely Lou:

UNAPPROPRIATE FOR THIS NEWS GROUP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 Why is this so difficult for you to understand?  You seem to be a
reasonable man on many issues.  I've admired your scholarship and
knowledge in a number of your posts.  What is your problem here?!  Are
you too close to this issue?  Did you lose a loved one in Vietnam?  If
so, I am genuinely sorry.  However, Vietnam and/or Clinton and/or the
home front during the Vietnam era are not the topic of discussion here.

Finally, I am sick and tired of hearing you blame a generation for our
loss in Vietnam!

__Note to the reader:  The remainder of this message has even LESS to do
with   WWII than the preceding.  Hit N now to get on with your life!___

   Let me continue by saying that I am a few years too young to have had
to go to Vietnam.  But it was too close for my tastes.  But would I have
gone had I been 18 in 1970?  No, I wouldn't have.  I WOULD have been at
the protests of that insane war; but I WOULDN'T have been waving the North
 Vietnamese flag and chanting "Hey, hey LBJ! How many kids did you kill
today?"  (But then again most of the protesters weren't.)  If I couldn't
have gone to college (and protested).  I'd have gone to Canada.
  There! I've said it.

   If you're looking for scapegoats for our loss there are many more
obvious ones than a bunch of young people who didn't want to be slowly
fed into a meat grinder for no real gain.   If you're looking for
scapegoats why not look at a military administration that used tactics
from WWII in a guerrilla war?  That for years used a tactic of
slowly feeding in more and more young men rather than making a decisive
commitment.  Or a legislative body that was more interested in the economic
 benefits to the military industrial complex than they were in either the
 Americans or the Vietnamese that were dying daily.  Incompetence, lack
of resolve and ignorance were the enemies of the American soldier.  Not
the protesters.

    There were, of course, protesters with warped perspectives and bizarre
 agendas.  There are people like this in every cause.  The worst of the
 movement was seen in the mistreatment of the returning Vets.  There is
 no excuse for this behavior.  You don't blame the soldier for the fault
 of the leaders.  I'm not defending these idiots.

     Finally, the South Vietnamese must shoulder part of the blame.  In
both my readings on the war and my talks with veterans one point keeps
coming up.  A very large portion of the South Vietnamese either didn't
care who won the war or actively supported the communists.  In the book
Tunnel Rats, Cliff Banks speaks of the very extensive tunnel complex
that was found just outside of Saigon.  How could this have been kept a
secret from the people who lived in the area?  How do you win a war FOR a
people who don't WANT you to win?  To make a very small connection to
WWII; do you think that England could have held out if enough of the
British had been Nazi sympathizers to allow the Nazis to have a huge
hospital/ammo dump/command bunker complex just outside London?

     I'm not trying to minimize the bloodbath that happened when the war
was lost.  Thousands of innocents died in the senseless carnage that was
perpetrated by the communists and there were thousands of Vietnamese who
valiantly fought and died for the South.  But would it have turned out
differently if we had continued for a few more years?  If a few thousand more
American boys had been killed or maimed?  Barring a drastic change in
the way the war was conducted it would have just delayed the inevitable.

    There comes a time when you have to realize that you've made a
mistake and cut your losses.  We should have done that years before we
did.  It was an untenable situation.

    The public didn't begin to clamor for the end of the war just because of
the protesters.  They clamored for an end when it went on longer than WWI and
WWII combined and we weren't even CLOSE to winning.  When it entered a
period when almost everybody knew someone who'd died (or at least been hurt)
over there.  When the ones who came back alive and sane kept talking
about how senseless it was and how very little was being accomplished.
When the Vietnam Veterans started showing up in reasonable numbers at the
protests.  And they clamored for an end when they kept seeing it on their
televisions night after night after night after night.  They called for
an end and it was long past due.  Too many men died so Americans could
say we "never walked away from a fight".  Precious comfort for a grieving
mother or a fatherless child.

   The clamor intensified when a group of scared patriotic, young men in Ohio
 were sent by an paranoid Governor to confront another group of scared,
 patriotic young people at Kent State; and ended up being goaded by their
 officers into shooting and stabbing them.  For many people (especially in
 Ohio where I grew up) this was the beginning of wondering just who and what
 we were fighting for.

    Lou, I know I'm not going to change your mind.  I feel certain some
personal event in your life led to your single mindedness on this issue.  I
wrote this to vent my spleen more than to win you over. But I do want you to
 take away just one point from my tirade.

  Repeat after me:

"It is inappropriate to discuss Vietnam war protesters in WWII-L"

"It is inappropriate to discuss Vietnam war protesters in WWII-L"

Keep repeating.

    Now remember this phrase every time you decide to post in this list.  If
the post contains the words Vietnam or protesters you'll want to post it
elsewhere.  That's all.  Thanks for your attention.  I feel much better now.

    I apologize for my own divergence from the topic of the list.  I also
apologize if I've offended anyone with my comments.  We now return you to
our regular programming.

(Does anyone else hear the sound of a soapbox about to snap from over use?)

==========================[email-masked]===========================
= Steven Vest: Head, Off Campus Lib. Services: Nova University, Ft. Ldl, FL =
="You know that these are not the best of times.                           =
=                But they're the only times I've ever known."    Billy Joel=
================No statements made here reflect Nova University==============

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 20:18:18 EDT
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor,
         Marist Coll" <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA: D-Day Program Alert!

I just looked at the TV page and discovered that CBS TV in the US
is offering a program at 9pm on D-Day, with "Stormin' Norman"
Schwarzkopf and Dan Rather (not exactly Ike and Edward R. Murrow,
but we have to make do with the personalities of the day). That's
9pm tonight (Thursday, 23 May).

On Monday 30 May the Discovery Channel has their D-Day program at
9pm, repeated Sunday 5 June at 9pm. Set your VCRs! Regards-

Jonah Triebwasser
Adjunct Instructor
Marist College
Dyson Building (Adult Education)
Poughkeepsie, New York12601
Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
E-Mail: [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 17:36:03 PST
From:    "Jones, Scott T." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Lou, Steve, Clinton, etc.

     Steve and Lou,

     please take this cr*p elsewhere. I am here to learn about WWII on a
     scholarly level or to be entertained by facts, opinions or comments
     REGARDING WORLD WAR TWO!! I do not care to waste my computer's
     resources witnessing a fight which belongs in a sand box. Take it to
     the private level or take a valium, just don't take up my modem time!!
     Your assistance is appreciated...

     Scott

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
     Scott T. Jones                | "All problems are simple, it's just that
     Dahlgren, VA 22448  USA       |  people are more simple."
     Internet: [email-masked]  |
_____________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 20:59:12 EDT
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: WEAP: Anglo-American Armor deficient?

Joe Barone writes:

>>  For the defensive posture that Germany found herself during
the latter part of the war, I think they should have dumped turreted
tanks.  Turrets added to the complexity of the vehicle, increased the
time of production, and probably increased maintenance costs.  In
defensive positions, I'm not sure that the turret would help that
much.  <<

     Didn't Rommel make the same argument somewhere in The Rommel Papers?
 Certainly there was a strong argument for the course you outline.  Most
Panzerjaegers and Strumgeschuetz were based on obsolete tank chassises.
 Continuing the production of these chassises saved retooling and increased
the raw number of armored fighting vehicles being shipped.

     On the down side, turretless armored vehicles had characteristics that
made them less than desirable.  One major tactical drawback was limited main
gun traverse - only 10 degrees right or left on the StuG III.  This makes for
real problems when tracking moving targets or when attacked from an
unexpected direction.  Only with experience could a crew learn to quickly and
accurately pivot their vehicle to lay the gun for gross deflection.  There
were similiar problems with their limited ability to depress their main guns.
 Another problem posed by turretless tanks was their limited ammunition
storage capacity.  Comparing the ammunition storage of the Pzkfw III and StuG
III models that both mounted the short 75mm gun, the former carried a third
more rounds than the latter.  In an austere logistical environment like the
Germans faced in 1944-45, ammunition on board were much more important than
ammunition in the pipeline or cached.  What is the old saying... a bird in
the hand.....  Finally, barrel overhang reduces the mobility of turretless
vehicles in close terrain.  All things considered, one can hardly fault the
Germans for trying to have the best of both worlds.

Scott Hannon writes:

>>  Generally it was the lightly armored US TDs that were quickest....what
they lacked in armor (and thus weight) they made up in speed and agility.<<

     You make your point to strongly.  The majority of US tank destroyer
units were not equipped with the highly mobile vehicles you describe.  The
mobility of the M10 and M36 tank destroyers that constituted the bulk of the
American force was only marginally better than the Sherman.  The few purpose
built TDs (M18s) were significantly more mobile with road speeds of 40-45mph
and a very low ground pressure.  They however made up only a small part of
the TD fleet.   After June 44, everybody was more interested in the TD's
armament anyway.

    Finally, this whole discussion suffers from an over emphasis on a single
factor in the effectiveness of armored forces.  Technology is important but,
its is rarely decisive in and of itself.  In my professional estimation,
crews and their training are a least equally important.  As the Iraqis and
other have demonstrated, a technologically capable tank - like the T-72 - is
of little value in the hands of poor or irresolute crewmen.  Comments?

Allons!

CPT V.J. Tedesco III
Cavalryman & Scholar
Pennsylvania State University
(814) 867-7006
E-Mail = [email-masked]

>>The instruments of battle are valuable only if one knows how to use them.<<
Ardant du Piq, 1870.

>>Historically, good men with poor ships are better than poor men with good
ships.<,  Cdr. J.K. Taussig, USN 1916

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 May 1994 21:16:18 -0400
From:    Steven VEST <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Lou, Steve, Clinton, etc.

>      Steve and Lou,
>
>      please take this cr*p elsewhere. I am here to learn about WWII on a
>      scholarly level or to be entertained by facts, opinions or comments
>      REGARDING WORLD WAR TWO!! I do not care to waste my computer's
>      resources witnessing a fight which belongs in a sand box. Take it to
>      the private level or take a valium, just don't take up my modem time!!

You're right of course.  I apologize once again!  I lost myself in the
moment.

==========================[email-masked]===========================
= Steven Vest: Head, Off Campus Lib. Services: Nova University, Ft. Ldl, FL =
="You know that these are not the best of times.                           =
=                But they're the only times I've ever known."    Billy Joel=
================No statements made here reflect Nova University==============

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 25 May 1994 to 26 May 1994
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