Subject: WWII-L Digest - 29 May 1994 to 30 May 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 31 May 1994 00:00:19 -0400

There are 13 messages totalling 439 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. [GEN] Computer games and simulations
  2. GEN/MEDIA:Stalingrad Film?
  3. They Shall Grow Not Old
  4. Criteria of Greatness
  5. TRV: QUESTION REGARDING DEATH OF GENERAL STUMPFF
  6. D-DAY: Which is it?
  7. Media: CNN Story today
  8. P-61C Black Widow
  9. MEDIA: NOST: D-Day Programs
 10. *Geography* thesis on Nisei internment?! (3)
 11. Battle of Bulge 11th Armored Div.

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Date:    Mon, 30 May 1994 00:26:33 -0400
From:    Walter O'Hara <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [GEN] Computer games and simulations

Robert:

I have most of those you mentioned except CAW II and Action Stations.
Battles of the South Pacific is very entertaining but not remotely as
detailed as PACWAR.  THink of it as "Pacwar Lite."  I've played Action
Stations from RAW Entertainment and found it to be an excellent fleet
simulation marred by woefully outdated graphics.  I still haven't seen
enough of Victory in the Pacific to want to buy it yet.

Walt O'Hara
[email-masked]
[email-masked]
[email-masked]

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Date:    Sun, 29 May 1994 15:44:04 -0700
From:    Patrick Charles <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN/MEDIA:Stalingrad Film?

        _Stalingrad_ was shown yesterday, 5/28, at the Seattle
International Film Festival.  I didn't get a chance to see it: however,
they are going to show it again tomorrow, 5/30.

Patrick J. Charles
University of Washington
Seattle, WA

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Date:    Mon, 30 May 1994 07:32:16 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: They Shall Grow Not Old

For the poster who asked, here is the information on the poem that last
week I had put in my .sig file: It was the 4th stanza of "For the Fallen"
by Laurence Binyon, 1869-1943. So it was a WWI poem, tho traditionally
read at memorials for RAF pilots during WWII. Thanks to David Cohn and
Robert Means for that information, and apologies if it is old news to you.

And here are the lines, which seem especially appropriate today:

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor time condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.

            - Dan      <[email-masked]>

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Date:    Mon, 30 May 1994 09:11:54 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Criteria of Greatness

Hello, Steve!

I know this may have been touched upon, but I couldn't let this pass.

> How about Bradley or Schwarzkopf (perhaps Doenitz)?

    Very definitely Admiral Doenitz. He would certainly fit all the
criteria you mention. As you well know, Admiral Doenitz is still held
in great esteem by those vets whom he saved from the Russians in
1945. His grasp of the politics of war led to his being named
Hitler's successor. As a tactician, his development of the "Wolf
Pack" idea very nearly brought England to her knees, and caused us
great consternation here at home.

    Thanks for allowing me to add my two cents' worth to this
discussion.

    All the best to you and your colleagues.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

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Date:    Mon, 30 May 1994 09:17:45 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRV: QUESTION REGARDING DEATH OF GENERAL STUMPFF

Hello, John!

At long last I can answer your question below.

>   When Keitel signed the surrender documents at Berlin, General Hans Juergen
> Stumpff was sitting to his right.  He was at that time Commander of the Air
> Force.  Could anyone give me the date and circumstances of his death?

    I will add the relevant dates and commands he had during WWII.

    Generaloberst Hans-Juergen Stumpff

    Born 15 Jun 1889 in Kolberg, East Prussia

    19 July 1940-promoted Generaloberst

    11 May 1940-Chief of Air Fleet 5 (Norway)

    6 Jan 1940- Chief of Air Fleet Center

    9 Feb 1944-Chief of Air Fleet Reich

    6 May 1945-1948- POW

    Died on 9 Mar 1968 in Bonn of heart failure.

    Hope this helps. If you need any more info on this officer,
please don't hesitate to ask. I have the dates of his commands,
decorations, and positions held.

    Sorry it took so long.

    All the best to you and your family.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 30 May 1994 09:24:42 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: D-DAY: Which is it?

Hello, Kevin!

> I am reading Bradleys book "A Generals Life" and he refers to it as Point du Hoe
>  also.

    Great book and interesting read. Compare it with his first book,
actually written by his aide, Colonel Chet Hansen.

    One thing that struck me as a major difference between the two
was the fact that in his first book "A Soldier's Story", Bradley
doesn't make any biting comments about General B. L. Montgomery. In
the second one, he really comes down hard on him.

    Do you or others have any thoughts on this?

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 30 May 1994 09:36:46 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Media: CNN Story today

Hello, Jack and others!

>  >Sorry but I don;t remember the gent's name.

    I believe his name is Walter "Walt" Ehlers.

> He was a sergeant who attacked a German machinegun position and
> killed (12 or 16) German soldiers attacking his squad.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

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Date:    Mon, 30 May 1994 10:07:16 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: P-61C Black Widow

Hello, Aldo, Emmanuel, Peter and others!

Here goes with the info on the P-61C.

    Both the P-61A and P-61B were felt to have a deficiency in top
speed and operational service ceiling and the Army sought to improve
both these areas of performance by installing turbo-supercharged
engines on the P-61.  On 11 November 1943, the Army Air Force
authorized the Air Technical Service Command and Northrop to begin
development of a high performance P-61 under the designation XP-61C.
The XP-61C would be powered by turbo-supercharged 2,800 hp Pratt &
Whitney R-2800C engines.  With this increase in power, the XP-61C was
estimated to have a top speed of near 430 mph at an altitude of
30,000 feet.

    With Northrop heavily involved in production of both P-61As and
the Vengeance, in addition to development work on the XB-35 Flying
Wing bomber program, a subcontractor was needed to do the
modification on the P-61A airframes selected for conversion to the XP-
61C configuration.  Goodyear Aircraft in Akron, Ohio, was selected
and a pair of P-61As were delivered to the company.  The XP-61C was
to be powered by R-2800-27 engines; however, Army demands for these
engines were so heavy that Goodyear had to install R-2800-14W engines
(the Navy equivalent).  By the time the two aircraft were ready for
testing, they were powered by still a third engine type, the R-2800-
57.  On 27 April 1944, the Army redesignated both aircraft as XP-61Ds.

    The Army envisioned that the two XP-61D prototypes would serve as
the test aircraft for the production variant which would be
designated the P-61C.  Goodyear faced a number of problems with the
program, not the least of which was Northrop's inability to help
because of the priority placed on the XB-35 program.  Most of the
problems centered around the engines.  The piston clearances were too
strict and had to be opened up, exhaust gases freom the turbo-
supercharger gates burned the bottom of the engine nacelle leading to
a redesign of the gate.  Finally, the aircraft were once again re-
engined when the proposed production power plants, the R-2800-77s,
finally arrived.

    Flight tests proved that the performance of the XP-61D was what
the Army expected and the aircraft was ordered into production
(Contract W535 ac-29319 for 207 aircraft) under the designation P-
61C.  The first production P-61C rolled off the Hawthorne assembly
line during July of 1945.  The production contract was later amended
to six P-61B-25s and 201 P-61Cs.  The performance of the P-61C led
the Army to place additional production orders bringing the ttoal to
over 400 P-61Cs.  With the end of the Second World War, howwever,
these orders were cancelled and the P-61C production line was shut
down.  A total of fifty-four P-61Cs were built, thirteen of which
were scrapped right off the assembly line.

    The P-61C differed from the P-61B in the engine nacelle,
propellers and in the use of "fighter brakes" in place of the wing
spoilers.  The P-61C had a redesigned engine nacelle and cowling with
air intakes on each side of the cowling for the carburetors.  The
supercharger was housed in a large bulged fairing under the nacelle.
The P-61C replaced the earlier Hamilton Standard narrow chord four
blade propellers with A.O. Smith four blade wide chord (paddle blade)
propellers.

    The "fighter brakes" were large, perforated hydraulically
oeprated panels fitted on both the upper and lower outer wing panels
in front of the wing flaps.  These deployed into the airstream over
the wing, similar to the way a speed/dive brake was used.  The
"fighter brakes," however, were also used to increase the aircraft's
rate of turn, alloweing the P-61C to turn much tighter than either
the P-61A or P-61B and avoid overshooting targets.  The armament,
radar and other electronics was the same as a late production P-61B.

    Performance of the P-61C was greatly improved over previous P-61
variants -- maximum speed rose from 370 mph to 430 mph and the
service celing went from 33,000 feet to 41,000 feet.

    With the end of the war, however, the P-61C was not used in its
intended role.  Besides the twelve aricraft that were briefly
assigned to the Air Defense Command at McChord Field outside Seattle,
Washington, the majority of P-61Cs were relegated to research and
test missions.  The biggest of these was the thunderstorm research
program conducted under Air Material Command.  The mission of Project
THUNDERSTORM was to penetrate thunderstorms at various altitudes and
take instrument readings.  A number of P-61Cs were also used for test
missions with NACA and the Navy.  A few were used as chase aircraft
at Northrop for various Northrop aircraft projects.  By April of
1949, however, all P-61Cs had been stricken from the active Air Force
inventory.

    This is the final posting on the development and use of the P-61
Black Widow. I think all questions relating to this aircraft are
answered. However, if there are still questions, please do not
hesitate to ask.

    I shall post squadrons, CO's and aces who flew this aircraft.

    More later.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 30 May 1994 17:23:14 EDT
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor,
         Marist Coll" <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA: NOST: D-Day Programs

Set those VCR's and Satellite dishes (in the US and Canada, I
don't know about the rest of the world) for the following
D-Day programming:
C-Span (the Cable Satellite Public Affairs Network) is having
hour upon hour of D-Day programming, including fascinating interviews
with Vets, the French civilians, Nurses, Generals, an Aide de Camp
to Churchill...you name them and C-Span is interviewing them.

Tonight at 9pm (eastern Time) Discovery Channel is showing a D-Day
special narrated by actor Charles Durning, who was there on the longest
day.

Regards-

Jonah Triebwasser
Adjunct Instructor
Marist College
Dyson Building (Adult Education)
Poughkeepsie, New York12601
Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
E-Mail: [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 30 May 1994 20:26:46 -0400
From:    William Newbold Ely III <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: *Geography* thesis on Nisei internment?!

On Thu, 26 May 1994, Louis R. Coatney wrote:

> OK, Newby, I'll bite:
>
>      How (in the politically correct ... ) can the Nisei
> internments be a topic appropriate to a *geography* thesis?
>                      :-)
>
>      Incidentally, we had quite a row (either here or on MILHST-L)
> about how they should *not* be referred to as "concentration
> camps", with the exterminatory connotations of that term, so be
> advised.
>
> Lou Coatney, who has just finished my thesis on the significance
>   of the Katyn Massacre (1940) to the West at Western Illinois
>   University (in Macomb) --  *History* thesis, that is.  :-)
>
        Thanks for your reply.  In his countless works dedicated to the
internment of the Japanese Americans, Roger Daniels has referred to them
as concentration camps.  There is even a book called CONCENTRATION CAMPS
USA.  President Franklin Roosevelt used the term, "concentration camps"
to refer to those camps holding approximately 120,000
Japanese-Americans.
        One tragic note is that millions of white Americans failed to
distinguish between Japanese-born and American-born citizens.  Why didn't
it stop there after all suspicious Japanese-Americans were rounded up by
the FBI and taken to detention centers all over America?  Why did white
Americans want all Japanese Americans to be interned behind barbed wires
and under armed guard?
        One central point of my thesis is that the white American
government, namely the WRA camp inspectors neglected the environmental
hazards posed by sites.  For example, dust storms sweeping Topaz. I can
go on and on. Want me to continue this friendly debate?

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 30 May 1994 20:33:05 -0400
From:    William Newbold Ely III <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: *Geography* thesis on Nisei internment?!

On Thu, 26 May 1994, Ken Koester wrote:

> On Thu, 26 May 1994 10:51:56 -0500 Louis R. Coatney said:
> >     Incidentally, we had quite a row (either here or on MILHST-L)
> >about how they should *not* be referred to as "concentration
> >camps", with the exterminatory connotations of that term, so be
> >advised.
>
> Or, rather, how the inhabitants themselves referred to them as "concentration
> camps".
>
> ken koester
> [email-masked]
>
        Hi!  Yes, the interned Japanese Americans felt that the camps
were concentration camps.  The camps were often officially (and glossed
over) referred to as "relocation centers".  The internment is classified
as "evacuation and relocation", according to library subheadings,
although it doesn't sound appropriate.
        President FDR referred to the camps for Japanese-Americans as
"concentration camps" on five separate occassions.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 30 May 1994 22:43:27 -0400
From:    "Arthur D. Venzin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Battle of Bulge 11th Armored Div.

Just joined listserver for wwii.  Looking for information and pictures for
11th Armored Div.  We are having a REUNION in Pittsburgh, PA. Sept 9-11'94
and would like to hav some new stuff for the VETS.

In 1992 I visited Bastogne with my father and brother and had a short article published and would be happy to share it with anyone who wants its.  The 11th
was part of the reinforcements sent to Bastogne and arrived on the 23rd DEC.'94
they were West of Bastogne and had their first fighting in Acul, Belgium.

If anyone can help I'd surely appreciate it.  Thanks in advance.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 30 May 1994 22:38:10 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: *Geography* thesis on Nisei internment?!

Sure, Newby, continue away!  :-)

My point, which you have not addressed, is that "concentration
  camp" has come to have the connotation of "extermination camp"
  -- an installation designed and run for the extermination/
  killing of its (temporary) inmates.

Obviously, any of us would feel like we had been put into a
  "concentration camp," if the experience had happened to us, and
  obviously the internment camps for Nisei were -- with a hindsight
  which hopefully will teach us a lesson for similar crises in the
  future -- a terrible injustice.  OBVIOUSLY.

However, for an (objective?) historian to describe the Nisei
  internment camps as "concentration camps" is misleading and
  intellectually dishonest.  OBVIOUSLY.

Lou Coatney, Western Illinois University Library (til 30Jun94)

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End of WWII-L Digest - 29 May 1994 to 30 May 1994
*************************************************