Subject: WWII-L Digest - 31 May 1994 to 1 Jun 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 1994 00:00:51 -0400

There are 33 messages totalling 1485 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. *Geography* thes...
  2. INF: USN Chronology 06-01-94
  3. USAAF 27-31 MAY 1944 (2)
  4. They Shall Grow Not Old (3)
  5. D-DAY: Which is it?
  6. Can someone help this guy?
  7. INF: 50 Years Ago Today - 01-JUN-1944 (2)
  8. Lt. Col's article in Denver paper
  9. Restoration of Dolittle's B-25B
 10. MEMOIR - Edward Beattie, Diary of a Kriegie
 11. Black Widow Squadrons and CO's
 12. [INF] USAAF 1 JUN 44
 13. WEAPONS/Mauser 98 (2)
 14. U.S. NAVY PHOTOS & SHIP INFO
 15. WEAP: tank destroyers
 16. Bob Hope on D-Day
 17. Re[2]: WEAPONS/Mauser 98
 18. D-DAY, 6 JUN 44 (3)
 19. INF: Regia Marina, Part 6
 20. U.S. Casualties
 21. D-DAY CEREMONIES (2)
 22. I-80 & WWII
 23. Doug MacArthur
 24. Criteria of Greatness
 25. Battle of Bulge 11th Armored Div.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 31 May 1994 23:35:00 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: *Geography* thes...

*I* get it:  demographics, etc.  Ahhhhh.  :-)

(Thanks, John.)

Lou

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Jun 1994 01:36:33 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 06-01-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
06/01 Thu. Submarine NARWHAL (SS-167), lands men and supplies on
           southwest coast of Mindanao, P. I.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Jun 1994 11:22:27 CET
From:    "LTC Donnell, Doug" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: USAAF 27-31 MAY 1944

Hi Joe,

Ref your question on claiming half an aircraft. . .yep, you've got it,
when you shoot off one, and only one wing, that's a half a kill :-)

Actually, it has to do with who gets credit for destroying the airplane.
If two aircraft engaged another and it appeared that both contributed
lead to the shootdown, the official credit would be split between the
two engaging aircraft (1/2 kill each).  It's also possible to split
(or give credit to) bomber gunners.

Now, having said all that, I'm still at a loss to explain how someone
ended up with that extra 1/2.  Maybe it was shot just before midnight
and crashed just after :-).

                              Doug

Doug Donnell
Ruppertsweiler, Germany

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Jun 1994 05:52:20 -0400
From:    "dan.ford" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: USAAF 27-31 MAY 1944

On Wed, 1 Jun 1994, LTC Donnell, Doug wrote:
> Ref your question on claiming half an aircraft. . .
> If two aircraft engaged another and it appeared that both contributed
> lead to the shootdown, the official credit would be split between the
>
> Now, having said all that, I'm still at a loss to explain how someone
> ended up with that extra 1/2.  Maybe it was shot just before midnight
> and crashed just after :-).

Well, the Royal Air Force over Rangoon on 25 Dec 1941 came out with a half
a Japanese bomber to the good. They also lost 5 pilots & 5 Buffaloes. I
figured that one of the downed pilots got the other half-claim, and the
RAF either didn't know which one or didn't have a mechanism to put in a
claim for a dead pilot.

            - Dan      <[email-masked]>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Jun 1994 11:27:48 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: They Shall Grow Not Old

Dan Ford writes...
>       For the poster who asked, here is the information on the poem that last
>       week I had put in my .sig file: It was the 4th stanza of "For the Fallen"
>       by Laurence Binyon, 1869-1943. So it was a WWI poem, tho traditionally
>       read at memorials for RAF pilots during WWII. Thanks to David Cohn and
>       Robert Means for that information, and apologies if it is old news to you.
>
>       And here are the lines, which seem especially appropriate today:
>
>       They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
>       Age shall not weary them, nor time condemn.
>       At the going down of the sun and in the morning
>       We will remember them.

In the UK, these lines are spoken every Remembrance Sunday (the Sunday
closest to Armistice Day, 11th November). In Churches and gathered
around war memorials, the priest or whoever, will say these words.
The "congrgation" repeats "We will remember them" after the priest has
spoken that last line. The Last Post is then sounded followed by
the silence. The silence is ended by the sounding of the
"Reveille".

Thanks for the info Dan. I've said these words many times without knowing
the source.

steve baldwin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Jun 1994 07:19:15 -0400
From:    Kevin Kamphaus <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: D-DAY: Which is it?

>From what I have read so far, it would seem Monty was on the verge of being     sacked on several occasions(rightfully so). His over-cautious attitude IMO costsmay lives, mostly American. My opinion of Monty dropped quite a bit while
reading this book. It seems he spent more time trying to become overall ground  commander than conducting war. What a disaster that would have been. We may
have been pushed back to the sea had he been running the show.

Kevin Kamphaus
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Jun 1994 07:35:42 -0400
From:    Kevin Kamphaus <[email-masked]>
Subject: Can someone help this guy?

From:   SMTP%"William Albert Davis <[email-masked]>" 31-MAY-1994 20:08:37.70
To:     kamphaus
CC:
Subj:   WWII Liberty Ship sources?

It seems like somewhere I saw a reference to sources on Liberty Ships, or
to an organization of Liberty Ship veterans. There's nothing about it in
a book I have on Military records. Does any one know of a source? I'd
like to know what happened to the GUS DARNELL, named after a Liberty Ship
skipper who lost one ship to U-Boats, and was killed when his second ship
was destroyed.

--
William A. Davis
*****************************************************************************
[email-masked] * 1424 Arcade Avenue #3 * Louisville * KY * 40215-2256
*****************************************************************************
================== RFC 822 Headers ==================
Date:         Tue, 31 May 1994 23:30:48 GMT
Reply-To: William Albert Davis <[email-masked]>
Sender: ROOTS-L Genealogy List <[email-masked]>
Comments:     Warning -- original Sender: tag was [email-masked]
From: William Albert Davis <[email-masked]>
Organization: The Internet Gateway of Louisville, KY
Subject:      WWII Liberty Ship sources?
To: Multiple recipients of list ROOTS-L <[email-masked]>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Jun 1994 07:35:42 -0500
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago Today - 01-JUN-1944

On 01-JUN-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Prelude to Operation Overlord - The first code message, giving a general
     warning to the French resistance that invasion is imminent, is
     transmitted by the BBC at 9:00 p.m. The Germans understand the rough
     significance of this verse which is part of the poem "Chanson d'Automne"
     by the French poet Paul Verlaine and on June 2nd will alert some units.

Eastern Front - Russian counter-attacks are succeeding in retaking and holding
     disputed ground near Jassy.

Italian Front - The German 14th Army continues to hold in the Albano sector
     and near Lanuvio despite strong pressure. After a strong struggle, the
     U.S. 36th Division takes Velletri. The U.S. II Corps opens the final
     offensive towards Rome, making for Highway 6. The 85th Division attacks
     Monte Ceraso on the left flank. On the right flank the U.S. II Crops
     launches a push towards Valmontone. Field-Marshal Kesselring,
     Commander-in-Chief of Army Group C, orders the 10th and 14th armies to
     carry out a fighting withdrawal to the Gothic line. This is ordered after
     the Gustov line is breached.

New Guinea - U.S. troops resume the offensive on Biak Island and break out of
     their beachhead. The 168th Infantry Regiment moves north towards the
     center of the island, repulsing several strong Japanese counter-attacks.
     Units of the 162nd Infantry move out from their smaller beachhead and
     head across the jungle towards the center, hoping to join up with the
     168th. In the Aitape area, the 1st battalion of the 126th Infantry are
     forced back slightly.

Burma/China - The Chinese 22nd Division overcomes Japanese resistance and cuts
     the Kamaing road in the Mogaung valley. Since the Chinese 38th Division
     is already blocking the road at Seton, below Kamaing the Japanese
     garrison in the town is under serious threat. American reinforcements are
     sent to the Myitkyina area. The monsoons continue to slow down
     operations. This causes the Allied supply situation to worsen. The
     Americans only have rations for 24 hours; the Chinese for 2 days. On the
     Salween front, Chinese units reach the Shweli valley and join up with a
     regiment of the Chinese 198th Division coming from Mamien Pass. Two
     regiments of the Chinese cross the Salween. Chiang Kai-shek has finally
     decided to send adequate forces to Burma.

Air Operations
--------------
Europe - The first Me 262 jet fighters enter operational service with the
     Luftwaffe. Although they are vastly superior to all the Allied aircraft
     there will never be enough of them to cause any significant damage. They
     will be hindered by the continuing drop in fuel production and by attacks
     on their bases of operation.

Naval Dispatches
----------------
Submarine NARWHAL (SS-167) lands men and supplies on the southwest coast of
     Mindanao.

The Homefront
-------------
Hull Pledge to Small Nations - Sec. of State Cordell Hull states that small
     nations will be kept on an equal level with all others in the postwar
     United Nations.

Rationed Products - The Office of Price Administration has made canned citrus
     juices and cheese products ration-free effective June 4.

Baseball Standings - The American League leader is St. Louis with 24 wins and
     19 losses. The National League leader is St. Louis with 26 wins and 13
     losses.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Jun 1994 08:43:39 EST
From:    Aldo <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: 50 Years Ago Today - 01-JUN-1944

On 01-JUN-1944, the following occurred -

<much deleted>

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John,

I like this posting.  I was thnking it would be nice either every day,
or maybe more practically, once a week. However, it is a lot of
typing (unless someone has a scanner)--maybe a few persons could take
turns, like a pitching rotation (I'd offer my services).

Aldo M. Hubert
                                           [email-masked]
University of North Carolina at Greensboro
800 Oakland Ave.
Greensboro NC 27412

Sic Friatur Crustum Dulce

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Jun 1994 08:13:42 CDT
From:    jesse carnes <[email-masked]>
Subject: Lt. Col's article in Denver paper

Can someone tell me of a certain Lt. Col. who wrote an article in a Denver
paper.  This man had obviously been in WW2.

Specs. on it please?

Jesse

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Jun 1994 23:32:17 +1000
From:    Ray Fairall <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: They Shall Grow Not Old

 In Australia this is called "the ode". It is read at 9 p.m. in all
the Returned Service League (R.S.L.) clubs. These are for "returned"
servicemen and women. The R.S

.L. representives also read the ode at
the funeral of my dad, as they do for all deceased members. It is a
nice touch especially since they also provide some financial support as
well.
Regards Ray.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Jun 1994 09:32:41 EDT
From:    Alex M Spencer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Restoration of Dolittle's B-25B

The B-25 in the Air and Space Museum's collection is a TB-25M or B-25J.  The
aircraft served in training squadrons during the war and never saw combat.
The aircraft was restored and flown by a group down in Florida prior to its
donation to the Museum.  The aircraft was restored to look like an plane that
served with the 486th Bombardment Squadron in the Mediterranean.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Jun 1994 07:25:57 -0700
From:    "Office TH325, Extension 3566" <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEMOIR - Edward Beattie, Diary of a Kriegie

Forward with permission

From:   SMTP%"[email-masked]"  1-JUN-1994 05:53:40.49
To:     RIEGSECKER
CC:
Subj:   Edward Beattie

Date:         Wed, 1 Jun 1994 07:41:34 CST
Reply-To:     First-Hand Accounts <[email-masked]>
Sender:       First-Hand Accounts <[email-masked]>
From:         "Bobs M. Tusa" <[email-masked]>
Subject:      Edward Beattie
To:           Multiple recipients of list MEMOIR-L <[email-masked]>

     An American reporter in a German P.O.W. camp ...

     Edward W. Beattie, Jr., "Diary of a Kriegie" (NY: Thomas Y. Crowell,
1946).  This deserved a better publisher and illustrator.  It is an
excellent diary of a United Press reporter's captivity in German P.O.W.
camps.  Beattie was captured in France as the Allies pushed eastward
after D-Day.  Although he was treated as an officer, the conditions
were pretty appalling, especially toward the end near Berlin in a
huge camp which they couldn't leave even though the war was over because
of the chaos in Germany.  Suddenly a jeep full of U.S. reporters shows
up to rescue him and that evening he is sleeping between sheets in Paris.
Beattie spoke German and had spent some 12 years all over Europe; he is
resourceful, caring, and generally maintains his sense of humor.  He
says that 'kriegie' is short for the German word for 'prisoner.'
     "If the Germans protest at these activities, (his fellow French
prisoner Henri) shrugs off the protests.  If pushed, he says in
atrocious German -- just the sort of German a Frenchman is expected to
speak:  'Let me ask you; just who's winning this war, you or we?'"

     Hey, Bob Shuster, many thanks for Peter Drucker.  Will look that
one up.

Bobs M. Tusa                                          Phone:(318)257-2935
Head, Special Collections, Manuscripts and Archives   Fax:(318)257-2447
Prescott Memorial Library                             Bitnet:TUSA@LATECH
Louisiana Tech University                 Internet:[email-masked]
Ruston, LA  71272

End forward

John Riegsecker
Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
University of Puget Sound

[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Jun 1994 10:38:12 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Black Widow Squadrons and CO's

Hello, Emmanuel, Aldo, Peter and others!

Here goes with some more info on two more BW squadrons.

                   414th NFS

 CO's       Major Arden W. Cowgill
            Major Earl T. Smith
            Lt.-Col. Carroll H. Bolender

First P-61 received: 20 Dec 1944

First enemy aircraft destroyed by P-61 crew: 4 Feb 1945

Squadron total of enemy aircraft destroyed by P-61 crew: 5

               415th NFS

CO's       Capt. Gordon D. Timmons
           Major Harold F. Augspurger

First P-61 received: 20 Mar 1945

First enemy aircraft destroyed by P-61 crew: None

Squadron total of enemy aircraft destroyed by P-61 crew: 0

More tomorrow.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Jun 1994 08:46:19 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: They Shall Grow Not Old

> It was the 4th stanza of "For the Fallen" by Laurence Binyon, 1869-1943.

Hi Dan,

OK, I've been waiting for someone to ask, do you have the other stanzas as
well?  Sounds like a decent poem.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Jun 1994 11:55:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 1 JUN 44

WEDNESDAY, 1 JUNE 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 2 B-24s from Shemya Island, Aleutian Islands
photograph and bomb installations at Buroton Bay, Kurile Islands, including a
suspected seaplane base and the harbor area. Of 2 B-25s and 4 P-38s taking
off for a guardship cover mission, 3 aircraft abort with engine trouble; 2
other B-25s fly a negative antishipping sweep.

  ZONE OF INTERIOR (ZI, HQ AAF): The AAF Redistribution Center, HQ at
Atlantic City, New Jersey, is redesignated AAF Personnel Distribution
Command.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 7 B-25s pound bridges at Songon
and Bongyaung and hit the Imphal, India-Tiddim road; 20+ others fly
ammunition into the Imphal area. 19 P-40s hit targets in the Myitkyina area.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 25 fighter-bombers hit the
Chenghsien railroad yards; 18 fighter-bombers bomb docks, a gunboat, and
barracks in the Chiuchiang area and strafe about 300 troops at Sanyenchiao;
76th Fighter Squadron, 23d Fighter Group, moves from Suichwan to Lingling
with P-51s; 91st Fighter Squadron, 81st Fighter Group, moves from Karachi,
India to Fungwanshan with P-47s; and during Jun, the 449th Fighter Squadron,
51st Fighter Group, moves from Suichwan to Kweilin with P-38s.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, around 100 B-26s bomb
airfields and coastal defense batteries from the Belgian border to the
Cherbourg Peninsula.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): HQ 464th Bombardment Group
(Heavy) and 776th, 777th, 778th and 779th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy) move
from Gioia to Pantanell Airfield, Italy with B-24s.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium, light and
fighter-bombers continue support of ground troops, striking concentrations,
bivouac areas, motor transport, railways and roads, bridges, trains and other
targets; fighters fly sweeps over the battle areas, escort medium bombers and
carry out sweeps along the E coast; 345th Fighter Squadron, 350th Fighter
Group, moves from Sardinia to Pomigliano with P-39s; and during Jun, HQ 64th
Fighter Wing moves from Frattamaggiore to Orbetello.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-25s from Eniwetok Atoll,
Marshall Islands, hit Ponape Island, Caroline Islands.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): HQ XIII Bomber Command
moves from Guadalcanal Island, Solomon Islands to Los Negros Island,
Admiralty Islands.
  In the Bismarck Archipelago, 9 B-25s bomb Matupi Island and on New Britain
Island, 3 hit the SE part of Rabaul and 12 others pound personnel and the
supply area NE of Tobera; 30+ P-38s and P-40s hit Talili Bay supply areas;
and 5 medium bombers hit a barge hideout and buildings on Duke of York
Island. In the Solomon Islands, 30+ P-39s attack Tonolai, Arigua and Arawa
on Bougainville Island and barges at Sohano Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): B-24s bomb Amboina on Ambon
Island and Kai Island in the Moluccas Islands and Boeroe Island in the Sunda
Islands. In New Guinea, B-25s and A-20s attack targets of opportunity in
the Kaukenau area, at Ransiki and on Noemfoor and Biak Islands; A-20s, B-25s
and P-39s hit villages, bivouac, and other targets of opportunity in the
coastal area from Wakde Island to Hollandia; the bombing of the Wewak-Hansa
Bay coast continues.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Jun 1994 08:53:52 -0700
From:    Jim Benn <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAPONS/Mauser 98

I just received an early Father's Day gift from my two sons; a model 98
Mauser, and the gun dealer they got it from says it's an authentic WWII
piece.  Here's his story- the rifle comes from Yugoslavia, where it was
captured/obtained from the Germans in 1944.  To the rear of the sight, on
the barrel, there is the imprint of a crest with a red star, and below
that the imprint PREDUZECE 44.  The dealer said the Yugoslavs (Tito?)
marked their captured arms this way, and this shows it is an actual WWII
piece.  It also has F4800 and 4800 stamped on both the barrel and stock
in various places.

Can anybody knowledgeable in this area comment?  I'd like to be sure this
is an authentic WWII Mauser.

BTW, it is very accurate and a lot of fun to shoot, but with 8mm ammo at
70 cents a shell, I won't be firing it a whole lot.

Actually handling a Mauser for the first time, I also was struck by how
long it takes to load five (only!) bullets one by one, as opposed to a
Garand or Carbine clip.  The same with firing; working the bolt action
and re-acquiring the target took some time, although I guess with
practice that would come easier.

Any comments in general about this weapon would be appreciated.  Thanks.

Jim Benn.

 *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*> Jim Benn  [[email-masked]] <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=*
 |-=[        Auto-Graphics, Inc.       ]=[      /~~)       /~~)           ]=-|
 |-=[        8 West Main Street        ]=[     (__(_UTO - (__/RAPHICS     ]=-|
 |-=[        Niantic, CT  06357        ]=[              .___/             ]=-|
 *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*>  PHONE: 800-733-6939 = FAX: 203-691-0183  <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=*

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Jun 1994 12:16:00 -500
From:    "THOMAS CANNON JR." <[email-masked]>
Subject: U.S. NAVY PHOTOS & SHIP INFO

I am doing some research for my dad, who served on the U.S.S. Swanson
(DD443) during WWII in the Pacific Theater.  I wanted to get
information concerning the address, hours of operation, and other
pertinent info for the U.S. Navy Archives in Washington D.C. and the
U.S. Naval Institute in Annapolis, MD.  We may travel down from his
home in PA and visit these locations.  His ship was scrapped in the
last 5-10 years so he is gathering info about the ship (including
photos that may be available).  Any assistance is greatly
appreciated!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Jun 1994 12:50:23 -0400
From:    "Mr. Scott Hannon" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: tank destroyers

re: tank destroyers
(from various messages posted late last week...I've been out of town)

***

I wrote:
>>US tank doctrine and battlefield reality were two different
>>things, and the (over-) reliance on TDs was unpopular with the guys in the
>>Shermans for obvious reasons.

CPT V.J. Tedesco III writes:
>     I'm puzzled by your comments.  Do you mean to imply that tankers
>begrudged tank destroyers (TD) their doctrinal anti-tank mission?

No. I meant to imply they begrudged the USA equipping them with tanks
outclassed by German tanks in both gun and armor. Regardless of what
doctrine may have said to do, US tankers sometimes found themselves in
situations where they had to deal with German tanks in head-to-head
combat. When this happened, the cost was typically a few Shermans per
German tank. This is bad for morale, even if a costs-to-benefits analysis
shows that US tanks "won" those battles.

>By the end of the war,
>improvements in US tanks like the M-26 made the TDs superfluous.

Hmmm, I sort of disagree here. I don't think the US fielded a good MBT
(main battle tank) until the Pattons around 15 years later. The Pershing
probably rates as a failure. IMO the thing that made TDs unnecessary was
the lack of a large ongoing mechanised war; this gave the USA time to
develop a true MBT and reorganize the tank force without having too
many combat considerations interfere.

***

I wrote:
>Generally it was the lightly armored US TDs that were quickest....what
>they lacked in armor (and thus weight) they made up in speed and agility.

Ken Koester writes:
> ... "mobility" and "agility" are umbrella labels--by themselves
>they suggest much w/o actually saying anything.  The other thing is that
>this thread began as a direct comparison of the vehicles themselves.
>Shifting ground to the availability of supplies, quality of supporting
>units, strategic & operational "mobility", etc., while interesting in
>themselves muddy the waters if you want to compare vehicle vs. vehicle.

Right, but I didn't want to restrict the discussion to mere vehicle-to-
vehicle comparisons; IMO that is a flawed means of measuring the worth of
a tank. It is fine if "all other factors being equal" holds; but clearly
it does not.

***

Joe Barone wrote:

>>For the defensive posture that Germany found herself during
>>the latter part of the war, I think they should have dumped turreted
>>tanks.  Turrets added to the complexity of the vehicle, increased the
>>time of production, and probably increased maintenance costs.

CPT V.J. Tedesco III writes:

>Certainly there was a strong argument for the course you outline.  Most
>Panzerjaegers and Strumgeschuetz were based on obsolete tank chassises.
>Continuing the production of these chassises saved retooling and increased
>the raw number of armored fighting vehicles being shipped.

>On the down side, turretless armored vehicles had characteristics that
>made them less than desirable.  One major tactical drawback was limited
>main gun traverse - only 10 degrees right or left on the StuG III.
>This makes for real problems when tracking moving targets or when
>attacked from an unexpected direction.

I agree it was a limitation, but I doubt it was a serious enough to undo
the advantages of the casemate assault guns and TDs (heavier armor, bigger
guns, lower profile, cheaper production).

A target moving at 16 km/hour (about 10 MPH), a gut busting speed for cross
country in WW2, moves around 260 meters (a meter is about one yard) per
minute. At around 500 meters, 10 degrees covers about 85 meters....that is
about 20 seconds of travel for the target, assuming it is moving across
the line of sight (ie tangentially). Thats certainly not a leisurely amount
of time to aim and get a shot off, but it is probably a "worst case"
estimate for that range.

>Another problem posed by turretless tanks was their limited ammunition
>storage capacity.  Comparing the ammunition storage of the Pzkfw III and
[Pz IV I think]
>StuG III models that both mounted the short 75mm gun, the former carried
>a third more rounds than the latter.

I'm not sure this is a helpful comparison for 1944 Germany, as these
models were obsolete infantry support weapons (nearly useless for AT
purposes) and no longer in production. The Pz IVH w/L48 75mm gun vs the
StuG III/IV with the same gun would be a better comparison.

I agree more is generally better, but its a question of how much more and
at what costs.

>In an austere logistical environment like the Germans faced in 1944-45,
>ammunition on board were much more important than ammunition in the
>pipeline or cached.

Hmmm....I don't know that I'd agree with that. I would think caching
ammo behind the lines and distributing a limited on-vehicle load makes
better use of a limited supply than topping everyone off and having no
reserve to draw from. Better to have a reserve available where you need
it rather than diffuse your resources.

>Finally, barrel overhang reduces the mobility of turretless
>vehicles in close terrain.

True. If you're on the defense, you're surely not going to site your
vehicle where it can't traverse enough to aim its weapon; the effect is
thus to limit your choice of position. However, the smaller vehicle size
of the StuGs and Hetzer may allow other deployments not open to larger
tanks like Panther.

>All things considered, one can hardly fault the
>Germans for trying to have the best of both worlds.

Ageed...I find more fault with the ratio of casemate vs turret vehicles,
and what those turreted vehicles were: too many Panthers, not enough TDs
and StuGs, and silly wastes like King Tiger and the other mammoths.

I also think the time of the non-turreted armored vehicle has probably
come on gone. Today, shooting on the move (with a fair chance of hitting
what you're aimming at) is a real consideration, and here turreted
vehicles have a *great* advantage over limited traverse weapons.

I wrote:
>>Generally it was the lightly armored US TDs that were quickest....what
>>they lacked in armor (and thus weight) they made up in speed and agility.

CPT V.J. Tedesco III writes:
>You make your point too strongly.  The majority of US tank destroyer
>units were not equipped with the highly mobile vehicles you describe.
>The mobility of the M10 and M36 tank destroyers that constituted the bulk
>of the American force was only marginally better than the Sherman.

Perhaps it was overstated. But not only were the TDs a bit quicker and
had lower ground pressure, they were also lighter. This made them easier
to move, and allowed them to cross weaker bridges. I've read of TDs being
attached to recon battalions, but not Shermans; I would think this
suggests more than just doctrine considering the relative number of
vehicles.

BTW, I have as yet not obtained the Leavenworth booklet on TDs...I will
try again. Is it still available from the GPO?

>After June 44, everybody
>was more interested in the TD's armament anyway.

I think I can agree with that, but I suspect the reasons have more to do
with the inadaquacy of the Sherman cannon for AT purposes rather than a
decline in the usefulness of the superior mobility of TDs.

>    Finally, this whole discussion suffers from an over emphasis on a single
>factor in the effectiveness of armored forces.  Technology is important but,
>its is rarely decisive in and of itself.

I entirely agree...that's why I jumped into this discussion! I wanted
to bring logistics, economics, and even tank doctrine into the disussion.

>In my professional estimation, crews and their training are a least
>equally important.  As the Iraqis and other have demonstrated, a
>technologically capable tank - like the T-72 - is of little value in the
>hands of poor or irresolute crewmen.  Comments?

Well, I agree with the idea, but not with this particular example. Air
supremacy and superior weapons were vital compenents in the defeat
of the Iraqis IMO. When I hear stories of T-72s shooting M1s at
point blank range and the rounds just bounce off...well, that kind
of makes it hard to blame poor training.   :-)

Scott.
Scott Hannon, Wed Jun 1 1994 ([email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Jun 1994 13:04:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Bob Hope on D-Day

FROM THE AIR FORCE NEWS AGENCY

062.  Hope's D-Day greeting
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
062.  Hope's D-Day greeting
     SOMEWHERE OFF NORMANDY BEACH -- For veterans of World War II, Bob Hope
is remembered as someone who went in harm's way to entertain the troops.
     As dawn breaks on June 6, Bob Hope will be at it again.  He will appear
onboard the oceanliner Queen Elizabeth 2 in a USO-style nightclub show for
veterans who are returning to Normandy for the 50th anniversary of D-Day.
     Hope with his wife, Dolores, will sail on the QE 2 from Southhampton
June 5 to Cherbourg and Le Havre, France.  On June 6, Hope will salute the
veterans with a special QE 2 show off the famous Normandy beaches.
     Commemorating Hope's contribution to the war effort, Hope Enterprises
released his "D-Day monologue" from June 6, 1944.
     "How could you forget.  You sat up all night by the radio and heard the
bulletins, the flashes, the voices coming across from England, the
commentators, the pilots returning from their greatest of all missions...
newsboys yelling on the street... And it seemed that one world was ending
and a new world beginning... that history was closing one book and opening
a new one, and somehow we knew it had to be a better one.
     "You sat there, and dawn began to sneak in, and you thought of the
hundreds of thousands of kids who scream and whistle when they hear a gag and
a song.  And now you could see all of them again... in 4,000 ships on the
English Channel... tumbling out of thousands of planes over Normandy and the
occupied coast... in countless landing barges crashing the Nazi gate and
going on through to do the job that's the job of all of us.
     "The sun came up and you sat there looking at that one great black word
with the exclamation point, 'Invasion!'  The one word that the whole world
has waited for.  We knew we'd wake up one morning and have to meet it face to
face, the word in which America has invested everything these 30 long months...
the effort of millions of Americans building planes and weapons... the
shipyards and the men who took the stuff across...little kids buying war
stamps, and housewives straining bacon grease... farmers working round the
clock... millions of young men sweating it out in camps, and fighting the
battles that paved the way for that headline this morning.  Now the investment
must pay -- for this generation and all generations to come.
     "And folks, what a wonderful thing it is that no matter the price, the
reward will be greater than the sacrifice.  We hope that thought can go along
with a prayer tonight... the prayer of a whole nation...  God bless those kids
across the English Channel."  (Bob Hope's remarks courtesy of Hope Enterprises
Inc.)
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
--

      // \\
    //     \\                    Air Force News Agency
   |         |              Kelly Air Force Base, Texas, USA
   \  CMSgt  /      ___________________ /____________________________________
   \  Mike   /
   \ Bergman /
     \     /

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Jun 1994 12:23:02 CDT
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re[2]: WEAPONS/Mauser 98

I have the book _Backbone of the Wehrmacht", which is the everything you
ever wanted to know about the kar98(k).  I'll look it up.  Also, German
troops did not have to put shells in one at a time--ammo came issued on
stripper clips which were stuch in the back slot of the opened bolt and
the rounds were slid into the magazine very quickly.  I've done this
many a time under "reenacting fire" and it works pretty well, but not as
well as an interchangeable magazine by any means.  TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Jun 1994 13:15:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: D-DAY, 6 JUN 44

FROM THE AIR FORCE NEWS AGENCY

Commentary

A Prayer for Overlord

     When Allied troops invaded Normandy on 6 June 1944, President Franklin
D. Roosevelt led the nation in prayer.
     "Almighty God: Our sons, pride of our nation, this day have set upon a
mighty endeavor, a struggle to preserve our Republic, our religion and our
civilization, and to set free a suffering humanity."
     Operation Overlord -- the invasion of Normandy -- was the supreme effort
in Europe. More than a million men, more than 5,000 ships, more than 12,000
aircraft were necessary to establish the foothold in Normandy.
     From the vantage point of 50 years, the success of the Normandy invasion
looks inevitable. It was not.
     Field Marshal Erwin Rommel, the German commander in Normandy, wanted to
stop the Allies at the low-water mark. He envisioned an impassable zone 100
meters (328 feet) deep all along the English Channel coast.  By mid-May 1944,
the Germans had planted more than 4 million mines.  In addition, the Germans
erected more than 500,000 obstacles on the beaches and in likely airborne
drop zones and glider landing fields.
     But Rommel did not depend on this simple armored belt. Adolf Hitler
issued a preinvasion alert for forces in France. The number of German
divisions in France rose from 46 to 55. Their quality rose as well.
     "Lead them straight and true; give strength to their arms, stoutness to
their hearts, steadfastness in their faith. They will need Thy blessings.
Their road will be long and hard. For the enemy is strong. He may hurl back
our forces. Success may not come with rushing speed, but we shall return
again and again; and we know by Thy grace, and by the righteousness of our
cause, our sons will triumph."
     The Allied leaders of the Normandy invasion were well aware of the risks.
U.S. Army General Dwight D. Eisenhower, the supreme Allied commander, was
tailor-made for waging coalition warfare, according to many historians. When
Roosevelt named Eisenhower Overlord commander in December 1943, planning for
the operation was already well under way. Original plans called for a
three-division assault, the numbers being limited by a critical shortage of
landing craft. Eisenhower immediately pushed for a five-division assault,
coupled with a three-division airborne landing. He carried the day.
          "Some will never return. Embrace these, Father, and receive them, Thy
heroic servants, into Thy kingdom."
     Just after 0000 hours local 6 June, thousands of British and American
airborne troops landed in Normandy. However, weather, German flak and
inexperience combined to disperse the drops. Some troops landed as many as 35
miles (56 km) from their drop zones. Still, no matter where they were and no
matter how few they were, the paratroopers contributed to a sense of growing
confusion in the German high command.
          American troops landed on Omaha and Utah beaches at 0630 hours local.
On Utah Beach, fortune smiled. A strong current off the beach swept the first
wave 2,000 yards (1,829 m) south of their intended beachhead. The landing
craft touched down on one of the weakest defended sections in Normandy.
     On Omaha, infantrymen ran into a cyclone. German strongpoints in and
atop the 200-foot (61 m) bluffs behind the beach were hardly touched by the
preinvasion bombardment. German artillery hit many landing craft well before
they reached the beach. When other craft reached the beach and lowered ramps,
well-aimed machine-gun fire cut down GIs. Soon, dead and wounded GIs littered
the beach.
     Some soldiers reached the comparative safety of a sea wall, where many
remained pinned down. Subsequent landing waves faced the same onslaught as
the first, and soon the beach was in chaos.
     First U.S. Army Commander Lieutenant General Omar Bradley received
reports from Omaha and contemplated diverting American troops to other
beaches. But even as he struggled with the decision, the courage and plain
moxie of the American soldier decided the battle.
     By ones, twos and in small squads, GIs climbed the bluffs, outflanking
and eliminating German positions. On the beach, inspirational leadership from
senior officers got the soldiers moving. By noon, troops began moving inland,
and while soldiers still died on the beach and the handhold on shore was
tenuous, the crisis was past. The price: more than 2,000 dead.
     "And for us at home -- fathers, mothers, children, wives, sisters and
brothers of brave men overseas, whose thoughts and prayers are ever with
them -- help us, Almighty God, to rededicate ourselves in renewed faith in
Thee in this hour of great sacrifice. ..."
     "... Give us strength, too -- strength in our daily tasks, to redouble
the contributions we make in the physical and the material support of our
armed forces."
     On 6 June 1944, Americans across the country paused in their work to
pray for service members invading France. Their work made the invasion
possible. In 1939, the United States had the 17th largest army in the world,
behind even Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia. But during World War II, American
production workers -- including women in great numbers for the first time --
turned out 296,429 warplanes, 102,351 tanks, 372,431 artillery pieces,
2,455,964 trucks, 87,620 warships, 5,425 cargo ships, 5,822,000 tons of
bombs, more than 20 million small arms and around 44 billion rounds of
ammunition.
     The United States delivered the tools of war. Those praying for the
safety of those in Normandy won the production battle of the Home Front.
     "With Thy blessing, we shall prevail over the unholy forces of our
enemy. Help us to conquer the apostles of greed and racial arrogances.  Lead
us to the saving of our country, and with our sister nations into a world
unity that will spell a sure peace -- a peace invulnerable to the schemings
of unworthy men. And a peace that will let all men live in freedom, reaping
the just rewards of their honest toil."
     The men and women who served during World War II are old now.  Tempered
by the Depression and steeled in the fires of World War II, these men and
women did not come home to peace. Instead, they had further work to do. They
helped rebuild the shattered economies of Europe and Japan. They confronted
Soviet aggression, and their sons and daughters fought in Korea and Vietnam.
Their generation did have, as Franklin Roosevelt said, a "rendezvous with
destiny." And the world became a better place due to their sacrifices.
-- By Jim Garamone American Forces Information Service
--

      // \\
    //     \\                    Air Force News Agency
   |         |              Kelly Air Force Base, Texas, USA
   \  CMSgt  /      ___________________ /____________________________________
   \  Mike   /
   \ Bergman /
     \     /

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Jun 1994 14:38:52 -0400
From:    Kevin Kamphaus <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: D-DAY, 6 JUN 44

WOW.....

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Jun 1994 14:40:50 -0400
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: Regia Marina, Part 6

        Malta continued to hold out but the supply situation continued to
worsen.  Meanwhile, the Italian lack of fuel grew steadily more serious as
only intermittent supplies from Germany were being received.  At times, oil
was pumped for the major warships to supply escorts for convoys to Africa.

        In August 1942, the British ran a massive convoy operation, code-
named Pedestal, to Malta.  This was a key battle of the campaign.  The
Italian heavy units were unable to intercept, though, because of the lack
of fuel.  The "Doria", "Duilio", and "Cesare" were now all in reserve.
Despite heavy attacks by aircraft, submarines, and torpedo boats, some
ships got through.  British losses were significant with the loss of an
aircraft carrier and two cruisers.  Malta was now resupplied and once
again began to launch offensive strikes against Axis convoys.  The failure
to take Malta was now being felt.

        On October 23, the British 8th Army launched its offensive in North
Africa and on November 8 Allied forces landed in Algeria and Morocco.  Axis
forces in North Africa were quickly squeezed from the west and east into
Tunisia.  Italian light forces and mercantile units suffered great losses
to supply these units, which finally surrendered in May 1943.

        On June 10, 1943, Allied landings were made in Sicily.  At this
time "Veneto" was under repair for damage suffered in a U.S. air attack
on June 5.  "Roma" and "Littorio" were available and "Dorio" and "Duilio",
which been been reactivated, began being refitted which would take two
months.  "Cesare" was attached to the naval school at Pola.  Nine light
cruisers and a few destroyers also remained in service.  It was decided
to preserve the remaining units, if possible, as bargaining chips for an
armistice, which most Italians favored.  If this was not possible, the
ships would seek one final battle.

        On July 25, 1943, Mussolini's government fell and a new government
was installed headed by Marshal Pietro Badoglio.  Badoglio played a dangerous
game of conducting secret negotiations with the Allies while appeasing his
German allies' fears that Italy would drop out of the Axis.  Because Badoglio
indicated that Italian forces would not support an Allied airborne assault
around Rome, Eisenhower announced Italy's surrender on September 8, a day
before the agreed upon date.  Badoglio's government was caught completely
flat-footed as were the armed services.  As a result, Italian contingency
plans were ruined and the attendant German response were swift.

        At this time, the Italian Navy's main battle force was stationed
in ports of the northern Tyrrhenian, including La Spezia and Genoa.  Instead
of receiving the anticipated order to intervene against an Allied invasion,
the ships were ordered to sail south to ports under Allied control.  In
conformity with the armistice agreement, the ships were to be disarmed,
but would retain their crews and remain under the Italian flag.  The order
to sail applied to all units except those under repair or otherwise
incapacitated.  If threatened with capture by the Germans, these ships
were to be sabotaged, scuttled, or abandoned.

        The main battle force, at this time, was made up of "Roma", which
had recently become flagship of Admiral Carlo Bergamini, the fleet commander,
"Vittorio Veneto", and "Italia" (this was the "Littorio" which had been
renamed with the fall of Mussolini's government).  These three ships made
up the 9th Division.  Leaving La Spezia on the night of September 8-9,
accompanied by the other ships in port capable of sailing, they were joined
by three cruisers and a destroyer escort from Genoa.  The total force
included three battleships, six light cruisers, eight destroyers, and six
destroyer escorts.

        At 3:37 PM on September 9, the force was off the island of Asinara,
near the La Maddalena Naval Base in Sardinia.  German Dornier 217 bombers,
based in southern France, began attacking.  These aircraft were equipped
with a new type of radio-controlled, anti-ship bomb, the FX-1400.  This
massed over 1,800 kg and was designed for use against armored warships.  The
Italian ships began evasive maneuvers and raised a curtain of anti-aircraft
fire.  Despite this the Germans registered hits.  At 3:42PM, the "Roma" was
hit amidships on the starboard side.  After penetrating the hull, the bomb
exploded, opening a large gash in the ship's side, forcing the after engines
to shut down.  A second bomb hit a few minutes later, on the port side,
between the number two main turret and the forward secondary turret, near
the forward magazine.  The ensuing explosion caused the remaining engines
to shut down.  The ship was immobilized and a furious fire broke out between
the bow and the midship section.  The forward magazine caught fire and the
powder charges within ignited, causing a massive explosion, blowing turret
number two into the sea.  She took on large amounts of water, listed, and
at 4:11 PM broke in two, forward of the bridge, and sank.  She took 1,167
crewmen and 86 officers with her, including Admiral Bergamini and his staff.
Only 622 crew members were rescued by the escorts.  Most were burned or
wounded and they were landed in the Balaeric Islands (Spanish territory)
for treatment.  The "Italia" was hit once, causing minor damage.  She took
on 800 tons of water, but her performance was unhindered.

        The fleet came under the command of Admiral R. Oliva, the senior
officer present, on the cruiser "Eugenio Di Savoia".  The ships continued
south and reached Malta on the morning of September 11.  Awaiting them were
other units, including the 5th Division with "Doria" and "Duilio".  They
had arrived the previous day from Taranto; on their voyage they were also
attacked but suffered no damage.  The "Cesare" was also attached to the
5th Division but for some months prior to the armistice, she had been
assigned to the naval school in Pola with a reduced crew.  She successfully
sailed to Malta after a brief stop in Taranto.  Her trip was marred when,
on September 9, some of the crew, wishing to scuttle the ship, mutinied.
This uprising was quickly controlled by the officers, who convinced those
involved that they had to carry out the provisions of the armistice.

        Command of the units in Malta was assumed by Admiral A. Da Zara,
commander of the 5th Division.  Because of the large number of ships in
the anchorage, the "Italia" and "Veneto" were sent to Alexandria, Egypt,
along with some cruisers and destroyers.  The other capital ships remained
in Malta.
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
We have our own ammunition -- it's filled with paint.  When we
fire it, it makes pretty pictures -- scares the hell out of people!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Jun 1994 15:28:35 -0400
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: D-DAY, 6 JUN 44

>WOW.....

What am I supposed to infer from mailfiles like this?  Not to be a pain but
when there is a heavy volume of mailfiles such as there is on this list I
think we need to be a little bit more aware of what we are sending out to
the world.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka                                         National Warplane Museum
Cornell University                                 Geneseo, New York
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Jun 1994 12:48:11 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: U.S. Casualties

As a matter of interest...
        British Commonwealth forces battle deaths in the Second World War:

        United Kingdom          383,474
        Canada                   45,316
        Australia                40,397
        New Zealand              11,899
        South Africa             11,895
        India                    87,101

        Total British Commonwealth battle deaths:  580,082

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Jun 1994 15:47:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: D-DAY CEREMONIES

FROM THE AIR FORCE NEWS SERVICE

341.  D-Day ceremonies
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
341.  D-Day ceremonies
by TSgt. David P. Masko
Air Force News Service
     WASHINGTON -- Ceremonies for the 50th anniversary of D-Day begin this
month and continue through the end of June with more than 30,000 veterans
and their families returning to Europe.
     Pentagon officials said 30,000 is only a fraction of the hundreds of
thousands expected to relive one of the great stories in history.
     In addition, another 9 million World War II veterans will share in the
commemoration through extensive live media coverage and associated events
planned in cities across the United States.
     Operation Overlord, code named D-Day, served as the beginning of the
end of World War II.  Although 6 June 1944 marks invasion day, the buildup
for D-Day actually began in 1942 and took on new momentum in early-1944.
     The "buildup" for D-Day commemoration events begins 30 May 30 with the
annual Memorial Day ceremony in Nettuno, Italy.  This year's ceremony honors
members of the Allied Forces who sacrificed their lives during operations in
Italy during World War II.
     On 3 June, also at Nettuno, a special 50th anniversary event
commemorates all of the Allied amphibious operations in Italy during the war.
On 4 June, the government of Italy commemorates the 1944 entry of Allied
forces in Rome.
     According to historians, U.S. military operations in Italy were
considered a pre-launch for Overlord and important to the Allies' momentum
in launching the full liberation of Europe.
     Air Force specific events begin June 4 during a memorial ceremony at
the Cambridge American Military Cemetery in England.  The ceremony, to be
attended by Secretary of the Air Force Secretary Shiela E. Widnall and Air
Force Chief of Staff General Merrill A. McPeak, will honor aircrews of the
Army Air Forces who participated in the D-Day invasion.
     At the same time, a number of commemoration events are planned for
Normandy.
     On 5 June, approximately 600 Army paratroopers will jump from Air Force
aircraft into one of the original D-Day landing zones, and then march to the
town of St. Mere Eglise for a special commemoration ceremony.
     On 6 June, the United States and France will host a bilateral
commemoration at Utah Beach.  Later in the day, France will also host an
international ceremony at Omaha Beach for nine Allied nations that
participated in D-Day operations.
     Also on 6 June, the United States will host a memorial ceremony at the
cemetery near Omaha Beach at Colleville Sur Mer in honor of service members
who lost their lives during the assault.
     On 7 June, there will be a special memorial for Ninth Air Force veterans
at the airport in Cherbourg, France.
     In addition to military leaders, President Clinton is planning to attend
many of these ceremonies, said White House officials.
     Pentagon officials said in keeping with the 50th anniversary themes of
reconciliation and remembrance, commemoration events are not to be considered
victory celebrations.
     "They recognize the extraordinary courage and accomplishments of
individual veterans and their units," said one official.  "They honor the
sacrifices of the thousands of men and women of the Allied forces who were
killed, wounded and injured during operations."
     After 6 June, England and France will host various other ceremonies to
commemorate the 50th anniversary of D-Day.
--

      // \\
    //     \\                    Air Force News Agency
   |         |              Kelly Air Force Base, Texas, USA
   \  CMSgt  /      ___________________ /____________________________________
   \  Mike   /
   \ Bergman /
     \     /

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Jun 1994 16:17:28 -0400
From:    "Steven C. Salina" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: D-DAY CEREMONIES

Does anyone know of any D-Day Ceremonies taking place around the Boston area,
or in New England as a whole?  I would like to be able to attend some sort
of commemoration, but have yet to hear of any ceremonies being held.  Any
info would be most appreciated.

Thanx in advance,
Steve Salina
SSALINA@BENTLEY
Bentley College Media Services
Waltham, MA 02154

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Jun 1994 17:02:55 -0400
From:    John Peterson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: I-80 & WWII

>Date: Tue, 31 May 1994 22:24:30 -0500
>From: Jon Stevens <[email-masked]>
>
>While driving on US Innerstate Highway 80 out west this past week I saw a
>few places that might be of interest to people in this group.
>
[stuff deleted]
>
>4. Every so often there was sign with five stars that read
>something like "Eisenhower Memorial Highway System".
>

I can explain this, because I saw a plaque detailing it at a rest stop on
I-70 in Maryland just last week.  Ike was President when the Interstate
legislation was first passed (1953?).  Since then, several of the routes
have been designated as above (EMHS).  I-80 and I-70 are 2 of them, I don't
remember the others.  They are the large cross-country routes, keeping
with the "spirit" of the Interstate system, making it easy to travel across
the fruited plain, and all that happy stuff! :-)
Hope that explains it!

Cheers-
John Peterson
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Jun 1994 17:12:45 -0400
From:    "Mr. Scott Hannon" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Doug MacArthur

re: General Douglas MacArthur

Kevin Noonan <[email-masked]> writes:

>[MacArthur's] total disregard for the achievements of Aussie troops
>in New Guinea colours the Official US histories where the lies about
>"poor" quality of the Australia soldier are repeated. Lies relating to the
>Kokoda Trail are prime, but are followed by Buna/Gona.

The only "official" US history of this campaign I can recall is _The US
Army in WW2: Victory in Papua New Guinea_. As with almost all the other
books in "the green series", it focuses attention on the operations of US
Army ground forces to the general exclusion of everything else. But that
is why the series is called "The US Army in WW2"; the limited coverage
of operations of other allied forces (including other US armed forces like
the Army Air Force, Navy, and Marines) is due to this focus.

There was also a booklet published by the Army (in 1945?) just on the
fight at Buna (with minor coverage of Gona and Sanananda). Sorry, I
forget the title...._Buna-Sanananda_? It barely deals with Australians at
all, as they played only a minor part of the fighting at Buna (minor but
important: the artillery and especially the tanks!).

In mid/late 1942 MacArthur et al thought poorly of Australian troops (and,
BTW, US troops as well) in New Guinea, but that view was soon seen to be
a result of a profound lack of understanding on the part of these generals
of the atrocious conditions and un-preparedness (in terms of both equipment
and jungle warfare training) of the troops. By the end of 1942, things were
getting sorted out and the old opinions were generally dropped as wrong (at
least amoung the US...Australians still seem to think poorly of the US 32nd
infantry division). I can't recall these opinions showning up in the US
Army official histories as anything other than as a slap at MacArthur et al
for being out of touch with reality. What "lies" do you think are present?

>For an interesting honest view of the relative merits of USA vs Australian
>troops and low level officers read
>
>McAuley, L. "Blood and Iron", 1991, Random House -- on the Kokoda Trail
>and
>McAuley, L. "To the Bitter End", 1992, Random House -- Buna and Gona

Unfortunately the Australian histories are not generally available in the
USA. And I was recently told _Blood and Iron_ is now out of print. I've
been unable to obtain any of these (or the official Australian histories),
so I imagine others have a hard time as well.

About the only books available are the two US Army books (both are quite
good in my opinon) and L. Mayo's _Bloody Buna_ (fairly good but not as
detailed as I like). E. Hoyt also wrote a book called _The Jungles of
New Guniea_ (as a paper-pack only?); I briefly looked it over and was
not impressed.

Scott.
Scott Hannon, Wed Jun 1 1994 ([email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Jun 1994 19:00:19 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAPONS/Mauser 98

Hello, Jim!

I am no expert on German arms by any means, but your piece sounds
very interesting.

> Can anybody knowledgeable in this area comment?  I'd like to be sure this
> is an authentic WWII Mauser.

    I don't think you have to worry about it not being an authentic
Mauser rifle from your discription. The thing I would look for would
be an attempt by any other owner to have made over the markings or
carved their initials in the stock to "prevent" theft, and so on. As
long as all the serial numbers match, and the Germans went to
painstaking efforts to number every part with the same serial number,
you have a fine collectors' item.

> BTW, it is very accurate and a lot of fun to shoot, but with 8mm ammo at
> 70 cents a shell, I won't be firing it a whole lot.

    I agree with you. It is a fun weapon to shoot. You might look at
investing in reloading equipment, if you plan to do a lot of shooting.
In some cases, you might run across some ammo sales in which whole
cases of 8mm ammo may be had for a relatively nominal sum. However,
such lot sales of such ammo may be of such that it could contain
corrisive priming which would make it mandatory that you clean the
weapon more often. You might talk to a gun dealer and seek his
advice, and I am certain that there are others on this list who can
provide you with much more invaluable advice than I.

> Actually handling a Mauser for the first time, I also was struck by how
> long it takes to load five (only!) bullets one by one, as opposed to a
> Garand or Carbine clip.  The same with firing; working the bolt action
> and re-acquiring the target took some time, although I guess with
> practice that would come easier.

    I would think that there may be a clip system that would
facilitate the loading of those shells. We had them with the Garand
and it strikes me that the Germans wouldn't have overlooked this
either.

> Any comments in general about this weapon would be appreciated.  Thanks.

    You are welcome and I hope my comments have been of help. Anyway,
that is my two cents' worth on it.

    All the best.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Jun 1994 19:21:54 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Criteria of Greatness

Hello, Steve!

Thanks for your note and the reply.

> well, I never _need_ anything. These subjects are my hobby rather
> than my profession (unfortunately). I was just wondering what happened
> to Hoffmann after Tannenberg/Mazurian Lakes, and whether he went on to
> greater things...

    I can certainly provide that info. I would ask you to be patient,
as I have been asked to provide similar info on 4 other officers to
other people on this net. I will try to post all this to the list.

 > If my memory serves me correctly, there was a degree of panic
> when Samsonov & Rennenkamp came over the boarder. The top bod
> (can't remember his name) was sacked, and Ludendorff I believe was
> sent East to replace him. When he arrived, Hoffmann had already
> analysed the situation, and planned the destruction of the 2 armies
> "to a tee"...thereafter, he seems to disappear into history.

    True, and his name escapes me for the time being. Also von
Hindenburg was called out of retirement at about that time to stem
the Russian tide. More than likely, Hoffmann was reassigned to the
Army High Command. It also just occurred to me that Hoffmann was also
associated with the diplomatic dealings with the German delegation to
Brest-Litovsk to bring about the exit of the Russians  from the war.
Will check on this, but somehow his name sticks in my mind. I will
get back to you. Please be patient.

More later.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Jun 1994 22:38:38 -0400
From:    "Arthur D. Venzin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Battle of Bulge 11th Armored Div.

Looking forward to sending you the article but I have a slight problem...
I don't know how to download a file so I'll have to send it to you via the
US Mail.  Please give me your address.  I'll be going back this year to
Belgium and Germany and got to learn the language soon so I can talk this
time.  Please contact me since the article I've had a number of letters
from my article from VETS from the 28th Div and 29th Div.  I've got to find
out about a group in Belgium that studies the Battle any help would be
appreciated.  Take care hope to hear from you soon.

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 31 May 1994 to 1 Jun 1994
************************************************