Subject: WWII-L Digest - 12 May 1994 to 13 May 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 14 May 1994 00:00:21 -0400

There are 34 messages totalling 1109 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. ADMIN: Flamebait alert (was: To Drop or not...) (2)
  2. To Drop or Not to Drop (4)
  3. INF: USN Chronology 05-13-94 (2)
  4. INF: USAAF 13-15 MAY 44
  5. colorization (2)
  6. Needs Help (2)
  7. TRIV Colorization (5)
  8. SS Capt. Erich Priebke (2)
  9. Churchill and Seagulls (2)
 10. P-61 Black Widow
 11. D-day program
 12. Nightline/Slapson Sands -- Operation Tiger (2)
 13. GEN RE: Colorization and loss of historic film (2)
 14. US Casualties Battle of Bulge vs. Pacific
 15. Leon Degrelle
 16. WEAP: P-61
 17. Grandfather's unit
 18. Movie Monkeying
 19. Op. Tiger and/or quality of boot! - 'Takers?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 00:26:48 -0400
From:    Joe Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: ADMIN: Flamebait alert (was: To Drop or not...)

As far as I can tell, this Dylan person is not a member of the mailing
list, and as such, I will assume that he intentionally posted in order
to bait list-members.  Please ignore this bozo.

I should mention that there are two entities from AXE.HUMBOLDT.EDU.  One
is Steve Fox who has contributed a great deal to this list (definitely
gives one the feel for the range of individuals associated with the same
organization -- Steve being the apex, Dylan the nadir) and the other is
"WAR2" belonging to Carey Stephens.  This WAR2 may actually be an internal
mail alias for that site.  I hope Carey Stephens can clarify what this
account truly is.  Thanks.
--
Joe Barone, WWII-L owner
[email-masked]
(Why do these anal-retentive types post so late in the day that I have
to deal with this garbage at midnight?!)

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 May 1994 22:45:17 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: To Drop or Not to Drop

Jonah...
        "the trough of political correctness".
*Love it!*
:-)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 01:24:13 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 05-13-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
05/13 Sat. Naval land-based and Army aircraft stage heavy
           bombing attack on Japanese installations at Jaluit
           Atoll, Marshall Islands; attack continues on 14 May.
            Japanese submarine sunk:
             RO-501 (ex German U-1224), by destroyer escort
              FRANCIS M. ROBINSON (DE-220), mid-Atlantic area,
              18 d. 08' N., 33 d. 13' W.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 06:52:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USAAF 13-15 MAY 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
SATURDAY, 13 MAY 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  SBD, Douglas Dauntless
  TBF, Grumman Avenger

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 1 B-25 flies a shipping strike and strafes 2
fishing vessels.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, nearly 100 P-40s and
P-51s over the Mogaung Valley hit gun positions, bridges, support ground
forces (near Nanyaseik) and hit numerous targets of opportunity throughout
the whole valley; 12 A-36s hit positions near Maungdaw; 19 B-25s pound
several points along the road and bomb troop concentrations at Bishenpur; 30+
B-24s, B-25s, A-36s, and P-51s hit Indaw, Taungbaw and Mohnyin; and 11 B-25s
bomb Monywa.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 19 B-25s hit storage and warehouse
areas at Mangshik and Lungling, a bridge at Hsenwi, truck and tank
concentrations SW of Loyang, and town area of Lungling; 39 P-40s hit military
installations at Mengta and Tating, a village N of Kaitou bridge at Tingka
and a truck concentration at Yingyangchen.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Twentieth Air Force): 771st Bombardment Squadron
(Very Heavy), 462d Bombardment Squadron (Very Heavy), arrives at Piardoba,
India from the US with B-29s; first mission is 5 Jun.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 355: 749 bombers and 737
fighters hit targets in Germany; 12 bombers and 5 fighters are lost; they
claim 58-5-13 Luftwaffe aircraft:
  1. 289 B-17s are dispatched to hit oil targets in W Poland but clouds
force 215 to bomb Stettin and 57 to hit Stralsund; 10 bombers are lost and
81 damaged; 1 airman is KIA, 1 WIA and 88 MIA.
  2. 199 B-17s are dispatched to hit the marshalling yard at Osnabruck; 178
hit the primary and 1 bomb a target of opportunity; 1 B-17 is lost and 61
damaged; 2 airmen are WIA and 10 MIA.
  3. 261 B-24s are dispatched to hit aviation industry targets at Tutow;
228 hit the primary and 12 hit targets of opportunity; 1 B-24 is lost and 2
damaged; 1 airman is WIA and 10 MIA.
  Escort is provided by 153 P-38s, 238 P-47s and 346 P-51s; the P-47s claim
14-2-9 Luftwaffe aircraft, the P-51s claim 33-1-4; 1 P-38, 2 P-47s and 2
P-51s are lost, 1 P-47 is damaged beyond repair and 5 P-38s and 7 P-51s are
damaged; 1 pilot is WIA and 5 MIA.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 300+ B-26s and A-20s bomb airfields,
coastal defenses, railway battery and V-weapon sites in France and Belgium.
P-47s carry out dive-bombing raids on various targets.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Italy, bombers continue
interdiction in support of the ground forces. 670+ B-17s and B-24s mostly
with fighter escort, attack marshalling yards at Trento, Bronzola, Fidenza,
Piacenza, Faenza, Imola, Cesena, Modena, Parma, San Rufillo, Borgo San
Lorenzo, Castel Maggiore and Bologna and hit railroad bridges at Bolzano and
Avisio; and fighters sweep the Bologna-Modena area.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium, light and
fighter-bombers continue to attack lines of communications but devote the
main effort to support of the Allied ground forces push against the Gustav
Line (French Expeditionary Force with US Fifth Army gains a spectacular
breakthrough by a fierce assault); A-20s hit a command post; B-26s damage
Cortona, Certaldo, Signa and Montepescali bridges; B-25s blast towns in the
rear of the battleline with good results at Pastena, Pico, Vallecorsa and
Itri; and fighter-bombers carry out armed reconnaissance and scheduled
attacks against communications, road and rail traffic and gun positions along
the immediate battleline and in areas around Esperia, Pico, Sant' Oliva,
Pignataro Interamna, Arce, Fondi, Perugia, Todi, Spoleto, Terni, Orvieto,
Chiusi, Rieti and N of Rome.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-24s. staging through Eniwetok
Atoll from Kwajalein Atoll, bomb Truk Atoll during the early morning hours.
Other B-24s from Kwajalein bomb Maloelap and Jaluit Atolls, Marshall Islands.
B-25s from Engebi Island hit Ponape Island.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On Bougainville Island, 50+
P-39s and P-40s attack piers at Ratsua, Porton, Chabai, and Tarlena; 30+
other fighter-bombers hit various targets, including a supply area SE of
Bonis, the town of Chabai, a village near Ibu, and huts and villages along
the Numa Numa trail; 3 B-25s hit coastal guns at Hahela Mission. On New
Britain Island, 21 B-25s and 40+ P-39s, P-40s, and P-38s pound supply areas
at Talili Bay. Fighter sweeps over N New Britain and New Ireland Islands
continue; many targets of opportunity are strafed.
  370th, 371st, 372d and 424th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), 307th
Bombardment Group (Heavy), move from Munda, New Georgia Island, Solomon
Islands and Guadalcanal Island (424th Bomb Squadron) to Los Negros Island
with B-24s.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, B-24s hit
dispersal areas on Jaspen Island, supply areas and AA guns at Bosnik and
airfields at Sorido, Namber and near the Moemi River; B-24s and B-25s hit
airfields in the Wakde-Maffin-Sawar-Arare area; 200+ fighter-bombers, A-20s,
and B-25s thoroughly pound airfields, bridges, fuel dumps, vehicles,
villages, AA guns, and supply areas in the Wewak-Hansa Bay area.
  89th Bombardment Squadron (Light), 3d Bombardment Group (Light), moves
from Nadzab to Hollandia, New Guinea with A-20s.

SUNDAY, 14 MAY 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 12 P-38s hit Tiddim road at
Tonzang, causing a roadblock; 11 P-40s hit a bridge and road at Kazu and
railroad shed at Myitkyina; 25 B-25s and P-51s hit troop positions at Hopin;
Meiktila and Heho Airfields are hit by 20+ P-51s and P-38s; the fighters
claim 4 aircraft downed in combat.
  528th Fighter-Bomber Squadron, 311th Fighter-Bomber Group, moves from
Dinjan, India to Tingkawk Sakan, Burma with P-51s.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 60 P-40s and P-51s hit trucks at
Yoyang, river shipping, boxcars, and trucks at Pailochi and Sienning and
a storage area at Shayang; 20 other P-40s bomb and strafe towns near Mamien
Pass, Pingkai and areas around Mengta and Tating; 6 Japanese bombers hit
Kienow, rendering the airfield temporarily unusable.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 435th Fighter Squadron, 479th
Fighter Group, arrives at Wattisham, England from the US with P-38Js; first
mission is 26 May.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 404th Fighter Squadron, 371st
Fighter Group, stops operating from Ibsley, England with P-47s and returns to
base at Bisterne.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Just over 700 bombers attack
targets in Italy; B-17s hit marshalling yards at Ferrara and Mantua and an
air depot at Piacenza; B-24s hit Vicenza marshalling yard and air depots at
Piacenza and Reggio Emilia; fighters fly 170+ sorties in escort; 48 P-38s
strafe Aviano and Villaorba airfields.
  HQ 52d Fighter Group and 4th and 5th Fighter Squadrons move from Corsica to
Madna Airfield, Italy with P-51s.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, support for the Allied
ground assault into the Gustav Line continues as aircraft hit at lines of
communications N and NW of Rome and blast targets in the immediate battle
area; medium bombers claim hits on bridges, bridge approaches, and viaducts
at Chiani, Marsciano, Monte Molino. Castiglione d'Orcia, San Giovanni
Valdarno, Poggibonsi, Tabianello and Arezzo; A-20s pound command posts in the
battle area; fighter-bombers hit stations, tracks, roads, town areas,
bridges, gun positions and targets of opportunity in the immediate battle
area and in or near Esperia, Terni, Narni, Itri, Terracina, Perugia, Chiusi,
Orvieto, San Giovanni Valdarno, Maranola and other locations N of Rome.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): 53 B-24s from Kwajalein Atoll
and 43 B-25s from Makin Island join US Navy (USN) aircraft in pounding Jaluit
Atoll.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 23
B-25s bomb Tobera Airstrip; 44 fighter-bombers pound supply and personnel
areas at Vunakanau; P-39s and P-40s strafe targets in N and E Gazelle
Peninsula, and fighter patrols over Rabaul area attack several targets of
opportunity. In the Buka-Bougainville Island area, 40+ P-39s and P-40s bomb
Hangan, Tsirogei, Tokiparo, a pier at Kessa Plantation, and near Ibu.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, B-24s bomb
Bosnik supply areas and Sorido runway; in the Wakde-Sawar-Maffin Bay area,
villages and AA positions are pounded by B-24s and B-25s; fighter-bombers,
A-20s, B-24s and B-25s maintain strikes against airfields, bridges, trucks,
villages, and other targets in the Wewak-Hansa Bay area.

MONDAY, 15 MAY 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 19 B-25s pound targets of
opportunity along the Tiddim road; 20+ B-25s and fighter-bombers hit gun
positions at Hopin and the airfield at Myitkyina; 17 P-38s attack Heho and
Kangaung Airfield, claiming 15 aircraft destroyed, most of them in the air; 7
B-24s bomb Myitkyina, Kalewa and Mandalay.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): B-25s strike Kengluang bridge, Siam and hit
installations near Wan Pa-Hsa, Burma. P-40s strafe troops near Pingkai,
Burma, and along Mamien Pass and in the Mengta area of China.
  92d Fighter Squadron, 81st Fighter Group, moves from Karachi, India to
Kwanghan, China with P-47s; first mission is 1 Jun.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 356: 166 bombers and 104
fighters hit V-weapon sites in France with 1 fighter lost; 38 of 58 B-17s
bomb Marquise/Mimoyecques with 5 B-17s damaged; 90 of 108 B-24s bomb
Siracourt with 8 B-24s damaged; escort is provided by 104 P-51s with 1 lost
(pilot is MIA).
  Mission 357: 3 of 3 B-17s drop 1.1 million leaflets on 10 towns in
Belgium and France; 1 B-17 crash lands on returning to base, 1 airman is
KIA, 3 WIA.
  5 B-24s are dispatched on CARPETBAGGER operations.
  HQ 479th Fighter Group and 434th and 436th Fighter Squadrons arrive at
Wattisham, England from the US with P-38Js; first mission is 26 May.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, 45 A-20s and B-26s bomb
airfields at Creil and Evreux/Fauville and Somain marshalling yard; 300+
others are forced to abandon missions because of thick clouds.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Weather cancels all operations
except fighter a sweep over the Toulon-Marseille, France area.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium and light bombers
again hit communications lines N and NW of the front while fighter-bombers in
close support of the Allied ground assault through the Gustav Line blast gun
positions, motor transport, ammunition supplies, bridges, rolling stock and
other military targets in the battle area; medium and light bombers also hit
harbors and vessels along coasts at Piombino, Talamone, Portoferraio and
Ancona.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): Operations are limited to photo
reconnaissance of Jaluit Atoll from Kwajalein Atoll.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On Bougainville Island, 24
B-25s and 40+ P-40s, P-38s, and P-39s, along with TBFs and SBDs, pound the
area N of Muguai and hit the Maika area between Muguai and Ebery's Lease;
40+ fighters on sweeps over Bougainville and Shortland Islands, Solomon
Islands, attack AA positions, trucks and huts at several locations including
the Kieta, Cape Friendship and Chabai areas. On New Britain Island, Allied
fighter sweeps continue over the Rabaul area; several targets of opportunity,
including a concentration of barges in Keravia Bay, are hit.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, the Wewak-
Hansa Bay area is again hit by A-20s, B-24s and fighter-bombers; B-24s and
B-25s attack numerous targets in the Wakde-Sawar-Sarmi-Maffin Bay areas and
on Biak Island. Thirteenth Air Task Force B-24s from Los Negros Island bomb
supply and bivouac areas on Mariaon and Tagaulap Islands and AA guns on
Woleai and Paliau Islands, all in Woleai Atoll.
  HQ 475th Fighter Group and 431st, 432d and 433d Fighter Squadrons move
from Nadzab to Hollandia, New Guinea with P-38s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 11:43:10 MET
From:    Ireneusz Jakobik <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: colorization

Just wait for a color version of a "Shindler's List" :)
Irek.
P.S. "Look at that guy! He's eating gray banana!" - Wayne from "Wonder
      Years" while watching B&W TV.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 07:13:43 -0400
From:    Kevin Kamphaus <[email-masked]>
Subject: Needs Help

I saw this on the genealogy discussion group list and thought some of the very
knowledgeable people on this list may be able to help.

Begin text.....

I know nothing about Genealogy so please pardon my ignorance.
Could anyone tell me the best way to try and trace someone who was an RAF
pilot based in Scotland during WW2. Is there some sort of database somewhere.
Any help/advice will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
--
Paul Porcelli
Technical Programmer
Dept of Aerospace Engineering
University of Glasgow
E-Mail: [email-masked]

End text.....

Thanks,

Kevin Kamphaus
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 08:14:11 EDT
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: To Drop or Not to Drop

I think what we may want to remember here is that war itself is immoral and
also that there is also only one objective in war and that is to win.
Grant knew this, Sherman andd Patton as well knew that winning is everything.
The only reason that we acknowledge atrocities is because we have "The Moral
Sense"  Those who may have trouble with my line of thought here may want to
reread "The Mysterious Stranger" by Mark Twain.
Am I being blunt well..... So sue me!   :)     I don't have time to argue
thw consequences of non combatants being in harms way.  IMHO its stupid.

Have a great weekend all!I will be in the Shenandoah catching Smallmouth!

H. A. Kurt Luginbyhl
Scientific Computer Specialist
National Museum of Natural History
Washington D.C. 20560

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 08:23:13 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRIV Colorization

On Thu, 12 May 1994 08:30:29 -0400 Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs. said:
>Whilst I have no problems with the preservation of WW-II films to
>prevent their being lost forever, why can't they re-print them in
>B&W? Why must it be color? Why can't they present both versions
>to the public, so we can have our choice???

They are.  AMC does not show any colorized films; it does show WWII films
from time to time.  Otherwise, the public has spoken:  it wants colorized
films, and colorized films it shall have.  If you want a *real* cause,
bitch about the lousy trimming of films to fit the lousy aspect ratio of
your TV.  IMHO, not showing all "letterbox" films on the tube is an infinitely
more serious offense than colorization, but it's only after 40 years that
it has finally become an issue.

ken koester
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 07:30:51 -0500
From:    Michael D Wallick <[email-masked]>
Subject: SS Capt. Erich Priebke

Erich Priebke, who was interviewed by Sam Donaldson on ABC's Primetime
Live, has been placed under house arrest by Argentine federal police.
He has suffered from depression since admitting that he participated in
the massacre of 335 Italian civilians in the Ardeatine Caves in Rome.
The Italian authorities have signed extradition orders for Priebke.
According to Primetime Live, the Argentine government will turn Priebke
over to Italy as soon as his papers are in order.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 13:50:20 +0100
From:    "H.G. Henry" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Needs Help

> I know nothing about Genealogy so please pardon my ignorance.
> Could anyone tell me the best way to try and trace someone who was an RAF
> pilot based in Scotland during WW2. Is there some sort of database somewhere.
> Any help/advice will be greatly appreciated.
> Thanks in advance.

May I suggest that you contact the Public Record Office, Kew, London.
They have the perssonel records of all RAF members.

Hugh Henry
St John's College, Cambridge U, UK

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 13:59:48 +0100
From:    "H.G. Henry" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: To Drop or Not to Drop

This issue has been covered in the standard texts so I don't think much
is left to discuss. When nations are at total war they will use what ever
means necessary to win, without endangering themselves (This is why gas
was not used in WWII). Thus when the Bomb was ready it was used
immediately. Estimates for the invasion of mainland Japan were a million
casualties. There was never any discussion of the moral implications of
its use. If the war had not been going well with Germany, and the Allies
had had the bomb, there is no doubt they would have used it on a German
city. We all know that more civilians died in the fire bombings of such
cities as Dresden, then at Hiroshima or Nagasaki.

Hugh Henry
St John's College, Cambridge U, UK

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 08:09:06 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Churchill and Seagulls

Hello, Sue!

> This may be a silly question but, in a history class a couple yrs.
> ago I read or was told by prof. the legend that Churchill was
> involved in a scheme to train seagulls to, ah, delicately put, "dirty"
> periscopes of German subs.  Could this possibly be true?  I am
> intrigued. I hope my ignorance isn't showing too badly.

    I haven't heard of that one, and would doubt that it is true. I
would like to know the source for this. Did he give one or did anyone
ask?

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 08:17:39 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: P-61 Black Widow

Hello, Emmanuel, Aldo, Peter and others!

Here goes with the last installment on the P-61A and the beginning of
comments on the P-61B.

In the Pacific, aircraft of the 6th NFS were also field modified with
four .50 caliber machine guns being mounted in the turret location
fixed to fire forward under the control of the pilot. The guns were
given a standard turret cover and looked identical to a standard P-
61A with a turret.

                               Specifications

                               P-61A Black Widow

Wingspan: 66 feet

Length: 48 feet 10 inches

Height: 14 feet 2 inches

Empty Weight: 20,965 pounds

Maximum Weight: 32,400 pounds

Powerplants: two 2000 hp Pratt and Whitney R-2800 10/65 radial engines

Armament: four 20mm cannon and (when turret installed) four .50
caliber machine guns.

                  Performance

Maximum Speed: 372 mph.

Service Ceiling: 34,000 feet

Range: 1210 miles

Crew:  3

                   P-61B

During early 1944, a new and more powerful Airborne Intercept (AI)
radar, the SCR-720C, became available for installation on the P-61.
The new radar had an increased range of nearly 100 miles and a
clearer image. Since the SCR-720C was larger than the earlier SCR-
720A used in the P-61A, it was necessary to modify the Black Widow's
nose section to house the new radar. As a result, the Army designated
the variant of the Black Widow as the P-61B.

More later or on Monday.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 09:20:18 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: To Drop or Not to Drop

> No you are not making sense. Japan was ready to fight to the last
> man, woman and child...to make the allies pay in blood for every inch
> of Japanese soil we stepped on if we invaded...until the A-Bombs
> were dropped. If you were in the Pacific theater instead of safe at
> home writing nonsense about white male power establishments (sic)
> you would have been damned glad the war was brought to a speedy end.

If he'd been a Korean living under the Japanese occupation, as some of my
friends and acquaintances have been, he'd likely have a different opinion too.
Something on the order of, "TWO bombs?  ONLY two bombs?  Why ONLY TWO bombs?
Why did you go so EASY on the Japanese...?"

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 09:56:28 EDT
From:    S214000 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: D-day program

NNS300.  A&E Production "Eye on History:  D-Day" Airs May 13
WASHINGTON (NNS) -- Film maker Lou Reda, who previously produced
the A&E film "Death Tide at Tarawa," has created another
documentary with the aid of the Navy-Marine Corps World War II
Commemorative Committee.
     The Arts and Entertainment Network will air "Eye on History:
D-Day" May 18 at 10 p.m. EDT and features on camera accounts from
veterans and historians.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 10:02:11 -0400
From:    Robert Hanks <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Churchill and Seagulls

Churchill, of course, was quite keen on exploiting new forms of
technology. Yet while his judgement was often unsound on matters of naval
strategy, it seems rather far-fetched that he would treat this rumoured
seagull scheme seriously. Martin Gilbert would be the source to check on
this. For Churchill on technology and strategy, see also: Tuvia Ben Moshe,
"Churchill's Strategic Conception during the First World War", Journal of
Strategic Studies Vol. 12(1). March 1989. However, crazy schemes like this
did emenate from the public during the First World War. For academic
sources on these schemes, see: Holger Herwig's book Luxury Fleet (2 or 3
relevant pages) and Lee Kennett's article:  "Military Inventions and
Popular Involvement" in War and Society, Vol. 3, #2, September 1985.

On Thu, 12 May 1994, Sue Hattabaugh, Valparaiso University wrote:

> This may be a silly question but, in a history class a couple yrs.
> ago I read or was told by prof. the legend that Churchill was
> involved in a scheme to train seagulls to, ah, delicately put, "dirty"
> periscopes of German subs.  Could this possibly be true?  I am
> intrigued. I hope my ignorance isn't showing too badly.
> Thanks,
> Sue
> [email-masked]
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 07:00:46 PST
From:    "Jones, Scott T." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: SS Capt. Erich Priebke

     Michael Wallick wrote...

     "Erich Priebke, who was interviewed by Sam Donaldson on ABC's
     Primetime Live, has been placed under house arrest by Argentine
     federal police. He has suffered from depression since admitting that
     he participated in the massacre of 335 Italian civilians in the
     Ardeatine Caves in Rome."

     - He's depressed about it NOW???!!!! Where has he been for the last 50
     years, working for an Italian orphanage??

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 09:48:45 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: colorization

> Just wait for a color version of a "Shindler's List" :)

Oof.  :-)

> Irek.
> P.S. "Look at that guy! He's eating gray banana!" - Wayne from "Wonder
>       Years" while watching B&W TV.

It is my personal opinion that if Ted Turner can colorize classic
B&W films, it is our right to force the DE-colorization of his cable
channels, such as Headline News, CNN, TBS, etc... :-)

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
[email-masked]                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 10:53:02 -0400
From:    Emery Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: Nightline/Slapson Sands -- Operation Tiger

Hello folks!
        Tonight on Nightline's Friday Night Special they will discuss
the disaster of Slapson Sands/ Operation TIger as a rehearsal for D-Day.

        Thought you all might want to know.
        --Emery

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 10:58:17 -0400
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRIV Colorization

Ken Koester writes:
> ... If you want a *real* cause,
> bitch about the lousy trimming of films to fit the lousy aspect ratio of
> your TV.  IMHO, not showing all "letterbox" films on the tube is an infinitely
> more serious offense than colorization, but it's only after 40 years that
> it has finally become an issue.

        From what I've read, this has been an issue for less than 40 years
because at one time movies and TV had the same aspect ratio.  (I believe
television was *designed* to have the aspect ratio of movies at the time.)
It was only after the movie industry perceived TV as a threat did they change
the ratio to offer something that TV couldn't provide.  For example, one does
not lose any of the picture of "Casablanca" when shown on TV because the
aspect ratio is the same.  I think the advent of CinemaScope (early 1960s?)
really changed things.  For some reason, people started complaining only
after the proliferation of VCRs.

        Concerning colorized movies, turning your TV's color down doesn't
give the exact same picture because the colorization process also screws
around with the brightness and contrast of the picture.

        I have a newspaper clipping from a few years ago about the Library
of Congress and its then newly-created National Film Registry.  The NFR's
purpose is to select movies that are "culturally, historically, or
esthetically significant" for preservation.  The NFR was created as part
of the National Film Preservation Act, which called for nameing 25 important
movies annuallu for three years to the registry.  The Library of Congress
will obtain a high-quality copy of the original version of each registry
film to add to its collection of more than 75,000 film and TV titles dating
from the 19th century.  The first 25 movies were:

        The Best Years of Our Lives, 1946
        Casablanca, 1942
        Citizen Kane, 1941
        The Crowd, 1928
        Dr. Strangelove; or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying
           and Love the Bomb, 1964
        The General, 1927
        Gone With the Wind, 1939
        The Grapes of Wrath, 1940
        High Noon, 1952
        Intolerance, 1916
        The Learning Tree, 1969
        The Maltese Falcon, 1941
        Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, 1939
        Modern Times, 1936
        Nanook of the North, 1922
        On the Waterfront, 1954
        The Searchers, 1956
        Singin' in the Rain, 1952
        Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, 1937
        Some Like it Hot, 1959
        Star Wars, 1977
        Sunrise, 1927
        Sunset Boulevard, 1950
        Vertigo, 1958
        The Wizard of Oz, 1939

        I admit that this is probably going far off-topic but I'm sure the
list owner won't mind this one time!  :-)
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
Don't fool around with the women -- their husbands carry
guns!  And don't forget the penalty for looting is death!

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 10:34:57 -0500
From:    "Sidney W. Kitchel" <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN RE: Colorization and loss of historic film

Steven Pudlo comments:
>Whilst I have no problems with the preservation of WW-II films to
>prevent their being lost forever, why can't they re-print them in
>B&W? Why must it be color? Why can't they present both versions
>to the public, so we can have our choice???

        I started this thread because I was outraged that _The Longest
Day_ had been colorized. My understanding is that _TLD_ was made in
black & white to allow inclusion of actual WWII footage. I think it is
quite presumptious of anyone (even if they are Ted Turner) to colorize
documenting footage.
        Old color film can be preserved by transfering the single
color print to three b&w prints holding the brightness information for
blue, red and green wavelengths. One would assume that important older
footage could also be digitized and sharpened by removing some of the
"noise" introduced by aging chemicals.
        As chance would have it, last night my wife and I were
watching Bob Ballard's National Geographic video on _The Lost Ships of
Guadalcanal_. It contains some historic footage that was quite
interesting and that I had never seen before. Some of it was shot by
Thayer Soule on Guadalcanal and some was taken on the ships. Are there
U.S. DOD efforts to preserve WWII historical footage? How about in the
UK and other WWII participants?? How about in Japan? Some of the most
interesting sequences in _The Lost Ships..._ appeared to be Japanese
Army film.

                                                        --Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel           [email-masked], [email-masked]
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 11:49:04 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRIV Colorization

What! Ben-Hur is not on the list???
                                                :-)Steve

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 12:40:12 -0400
From:    Emery Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: US Casualties Battle of Bulge vs. Pacific

        Hello folks,

        Is it true that there were more US casualties in the Battle of the
Bulge than US casualties in the entire Pacific theatre during WWII?

        Thanks,
                --Curious Em

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 12:43:56 EDT
From:    Richard Kaplan <[email-masked]>
Subject: Leon Degrelle

The May 2nd issue of Newsweek has end piece by George Will discussing Facism.
He mentions Degrelle passing away, and talks some about Zhirinovsky.  There is
also a picture of Degrelle a German uniform, though I don't see SS tabs on the
collar, or a death's head on the forage cap.

                                        Richard Kaplan
                                        Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 12:38:01 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRIV Colorization

On Fri, 13 May 1994 10:58:17 -0400 Barone said:
>Ken Koester writes:
>> ... If you want a *real* cause,
>> bitch about the lousy trimming of films to fit the lousy aspect ratio of
>> your TV.  IMHO, not showing all "letterbox" films on the tube is an
>infinitely
>> more serious offense than colorization, but it's only after 40 years that
>> it has finally become an issue.
>
>        From what I've read, this has been an issue for less than 40 years
>because at one time movies and TV had the same aspect ratio.  (I believe
>television was *designed* to have the aspect ratio of movies at the time.)
>It was only after the movie industry perceived TV as a threat did they change
>the ratio to offer something that TV couldn't provide.  For example, one does
>not lose any of the picture of "Casablanca" when shown on TV because the
>aspect ratio is the same.  I think the advent of CinemaScope (early 1960s?)
>really changed things.  For some reason, people started complaining only
>after the proliferation of VCRs.

Umm, I don't see how that can possibly work:  35mm is in the ratio of 2:3
(v:h) & I'm sure TV has never worked like that, although CinemaScope & its
offspring make it a lot worse.  I suspect one simply isn't noticing the
loss in earlier films--after all, we so rarely get to see them as
projections any more.  At any rate, here's a brand new one you can add to
your list of complaints:  picture compression.  You run the film faster
but run the sound through a pitch altering device to preserve the octaves.
You can get 25% speedup that way in some films that don't conveniently
fit the 2 hour-minus-commercials TV form.

ken koester
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 13:00:54 EDT
From:    Mike Long <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: P-61

Dr. Moore, Dennis Sparks, Irek, anybody...

Somehow I've blown away all of Dr. Moore's great posts on the P-61.
I'd been saving them all but somehow destroyed or lost the file.
Damn Friday 13th. If someone has a comprehensive version of the data
I would really appreciate it.

Dr. Moore, this IS GOOD STUFF, keep it coming.

Thanks,
Michael Long
UNIVERSITY OF CONNECTICUT
196 AUDITORIUM ROAD, U-138    |   BITNET: [email-masked]
STORRS, CONNECTICUT, USA      | INTERNET: [email-masked]
                   06269-3138 |    PHONE: (203) 486-1352

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 13:17:51 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Nightline/Slapson Sands -- Operation Tiger

>
> Hello folks!
>         Tonight on Nightline's Friday Night Special they will discuss
> the disaster of Slapson Sands/ Operation TIger as a rehearsal for D-Day.

Minor correction:  SlapTon Sands, rather than SlapSon Sands.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 12:53:52 -0500
From:    Greg Rutzen <[email-masked]>
Subject: Grandfather's unit

Did anyone happen to serve in HQ Co., 3rd Bn., 394th Infantry?  My grandfather
served in this unit and was killed in action on March 3, 1945.  His name was
Pfc. Edwin W. Bockbrader.  I know very little about him, but would like to know
much more.  Thank you.

Greg Rutzen
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 13:58:16 EST
From:    rick robinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Movie Monkeying

========================================================================
Umm, I don't see how that can possibly work:  35mm is in the ratio of 2:3
(v:h) & I'm sure TV has never worked like that, although CinemaScope & its
offspring make it a lot worse.  I suspect one simply isn't noticing the
loss in earlier films--after all, we so rarely get to see them as
projections any more.  At any rate, here's a brand new one you can add to
your list of complaints:  picture compression.  You run the film faster
but run the sound through a pitch altering device to preserve the octaves.
You can get 25% speedup that way in some films that don't conveniently
fit the 2 hour-minus-commercials TV form.

ken koester
[email-masked]
========================================================================

I can live with/without letterboxing; colorizing isn't the end of
  the world (quite); and compression (as long as they don't get
  carried away with it) hasn't yet driven me to homicide.

HOWEVER--- The choice practice of indiscriminate chopping of scenes
   etc., to make a piece fit the television time frame (and this
   does not limit itself to motion pictures) has already cost me
   one television set (combat boot throught the picture tube).
   This practice out to be declared a crime against humanity.

In reality, I believe broadcasters have missed the point completely,
   (and in the process, have assumed that the public in general are
   seriously stupid) and believe no one will 'notice the omission'.
   I think they could garner higher audiences by accomodating the
   <ENTIRE> production piece, instead of trying to see how many
   commercials they can stuff into a two hour time block (hasn't
   anyone told them that Guiness no longer accepts that as a valid
   world record?).

SOAPBOX MODE off

===>>> KARAOKE-- Japanese for tone-deaf drunk with a microphone <<<===

Rick Robinson/KD4GNK
Tape Librarian, DOIM
Fort Knox, Kentucky   40121-5000     (502) 624-8645
[email-masked]
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 09:43:13 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRIV Colorization

If "the public" will pay for colorized films, but not classics in B&W,
says a lot about "the public" doesn't it...

Kinda confirms my suspicions about them...

George Bauer
U.S.A.:  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 09:47:38 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: Flamebait alert (was: To Drop or not...)

Thanks for your comment about the bozo.

My personal opinion is that such postings should be responded to privately,
ideally by bombarding those who would inflame, and keeping the comments
OFF the list.

George Bauer
U.S.A.:  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 15:07:45 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Op. Tiger and/or quality of boot! - 'Takers?

Speaking of Training. In my service I had been housed in both old and
new barracks down in Ft. Benning, GA.. The old ones were easiest to clean;
you didn't have to kill yourself since they always looked a mess. But
as I attended ABN School in newer barracks ("Class #6! - Blacks Hats Make
Us Sick!" - our motto. "Oops. Must've pissed'em right off" - 'other motto)
I discovered the meaning of clean. I also figured that boot must've been
very different knowing that you were going into a world conflict during
a time before P.C., law suits against the federal government,... when
training casualties were expected. Any stories?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Wild, LAN Mgr.  Father of 1.5             Voice:          (401) 792-2611
ACC - Lippitt - URI  American Legion Post 102. FAX:            (401) 792-5479
Kingston, RI  02881                            Bitnet:           AWild@URIACC
                                               Internet: [email-masked]
Murphy's Mother's axioms:
 - Only errors exist.
 - One person's error is another person's data.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 14:44:31 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN RE: Colorization and loss of historic film

>         As chance would have it, last night my wife and I were
> watching Bob Ballard's National Geographic video on _The Lost Ships of
> Guadalcanal_. It contains some historic footage that was quite
> interesting and that I had never seen before. Some of it was shot by
> Thayer Soule on Guadalcanal and some was taken on the ships. Are there
> U.S. DOD efforts to preserve WWII historical footage? How about in the
> UK and other WWII participants?? How about in Japan? Some of the most
> interesting sequences in _The Lost Ships..._ appeared to be Japanese
> Army film.

Ouch.

Remember the scene at the end of the first Indiana Jones movie when the
Ark of the Covenent was being stored in that warehouse that went on and
on and on and on...?

I'm firmly convinced that was, in actuality, the film archive maintained
by the Air Force.  That one guy pushing the box along is also the only
person working on the storage and preservation of the archive.

In other words, yes... There is an effort to preserve the old footage,
but like any other entity, the DoD is finding itself without the funding
or manpower to preserve it.  Hollywood films are deteriorating into
blobs of plastic-like material and they don't have nearly the same amount
of film as the military.

A lot of film has already been lost to entropy and a lot more will be lost
to time.  While there is a concerted effort to preserve important footage,
much of the really _interesting_, yet less important stuff, is being
relegated to the "back burner" and may never get a chance to be
preserved.

We've been trying to locate a piece of specific footage (We know what it
is, where it was taken, approximately when it was shot) which is _known_
to be housed within the archives, but in the past 12 months, it has not
been able to be located.

I can't even imagine the costs of trying to preserve all that footage, much
less the time required...

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
[email-masked]                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 May 1994 20:16:19 -0600
From:    JOHN WRIGHT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: USN Chronology 05-13-94

From:   IN%"[email-masked]"  "John D. Wright" 22-APR-1994 10:48:18.37
To:     IN%"[email-masked]"
CC:

  ****************************************************************
  *  JOHN D. WRIGHT                    Phone 715 232-1607        *
  *  Department of Business              Fax 715 232-5004        *
  *  University of Wisconsin--Stout Internet [email-masked] *
  *  Menomonie, WI 54751                     [email-masked]   *
  *  ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   ***   *
  *  Remember--No matter where you go--there you are.--B. Banzai *
  *                                                              *
  ****************************************************************

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 12 May 1994 to 13 May 1994
*************************************************