Subject: WWII-L Digest - 2 May 1994 to 3 May 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 4 May 1994 00:01:39 -0400

There are 46 messages totalling 1332 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Question: Cannon/Machine Gun (5)
  2. Spam in Europe (13)
  3. P-61 Black Widow (4)
  4. re : B-10
  5. TAC: River Platte (Graf Spee) (2)
  6. German Rifle Grenades
  7. INF: USAAF 3 MAY 44
  8. MOnte Cassino (2)
  9. C-SPAN D-Day Show (2)
 10. INF: USN Chronologies (2)
 11. night fighters and attack aircraft
 12. INF: D-Day Casualties
 13. INF: USN Chronology 3 May 1944 (2)
 14. German Navy 1936 (3)
 15. Bangalore Torpedos
 16. P-61 radar
 17. WWII-L Meeting at Jefferson Barracks
 18. INF: USN Chronology 05-03-94
 19. Tirpitz
 20. five rules

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 15:24:25 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Question: Cannon/Machine Gun

>
> Canon are 20mm and larger, machineguns are smaller

No, there are 15mm cannon.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 00:23:13 -0500
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Spam in Europe

In message World War II Discussion List writes:
> Hello all!
>         Hopefully nobody will get too upset at my excusion into the obscure.
> I was wondering if our national pride and glory, Spam, was exported in
> massive quantities to Europe and the Soviet Union during WWII.  Also,
> was Spam included in the rations for U.S. GIs?  Does anybody have any
> quotations of comments from foreign nationals who tried Spam?  I'm sure if
> the Russians tried it they may have converted from Communism long ago.
>
>         An annual Spam eater,

Unfortunately, SPAM was widely exported to the allies, including Russia.

Also, unfortunately, I have a quote by Stalin regarding SPAM, but can't locate
it at the moment, it seems.

The opinion in Russia is about the same as it was here (and still is).  About
the best they could say is that it kept you alive.  :-)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 May 1994 21:28:21 +0100
From:    John Behrens <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: P-61 Black Widow

On Sat, 30 Apr 1994, Terry Moore wrote:

> The following morning, Pavlecka went with Jack Northrup to discuss

Interesting information. Just one correction.  The name is spelled with
an O, not a U.  Its Jack Northrop.  It amazes me how many people think it
is the other way.  That is all.

                                John

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 10:07:00 CET
From:    Peter de Lange <[email-masked]>
Subject: re : B-10

In the USAAF serie of 9 DECEMBER 1941 I found:

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC THEATER OF OPERATIONS (Far East Air Force):
and close to 30 other aircraft (B-10's, B-18's and observation airplanes)
have been lost in aerial combat or destroyed on the ground.

I do not see them in squadron service, but some must be around there.

Peter de Lange

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 10:20:01 +0200
From:    Bengt Nilsson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TAC: River Platte (Graf Spee)

>                Announcement from Adm Doenitz to all German Naval Forces:
>        "The enormous strength which the Fuhrer radiates, his unwavering confid
ence, and his far-sighted appraisal, have made it very clear that we are all
>very insignificant in comparison to the Fuhrer..."
>        December 17, 1943.
>                Speech by Admiral Doenitz to an assembly of Kreigsmarine
>officers at Weimar:
>        "It is nonsense to say that the soldier, sailor, or officer, must
>be non-political. The sosldier embodies the State in which he lives, he is
>its representative, the outspoken advocate of the State. Therefore he has
>to stand behind this State with all his might." -- Adm Doenitz.
>
>'Pretty clear signal of Nazification as Navy policy, right from the top.
>*Doentiz's* words by the way. Please don't keep shooting the messengers. :-)
>        After all, even Adm Doenitz said, "Anyone who believes he can do
>better than the Fuhrer is silly..."

Thus wrote Sidney Allinson.

I would like to say to this that it may say something about Doenitz, but it
doesn't say much about the nazification of the German Navy.

Did these statements change the actions and convictions of the average
German sailor? I'm sure you could find similar statements from Goering,
but if you did, would that say anything about the political opinions of
the pilots of the Luftwaffe? I think not.

I can't back this up with any figures, but I would think that many of the
officers of the Kriegsmarine were men who had fought in the old Imperial
Navy. So it wouldn't surprise me if they had very little sympathy for
the Nazis. The fact that a man like Langsdorff rose to command a ship that
at the time was the pride of the German Navy must say something about the
failure to nazify the navy.

Besides, was there ever during the 1930's or during the war a serious
attempt to remove Non-Nazi officers from the Wehrmacht and to promote
Party members instead? I don't know, but perhaps someone else does?

Bengt Nilsson
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 00:42:05 EDT
From:    Matthew Gajkowski <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Spam in Europe

 A Polish veteran that fought under the Russians told me that they were given
2 types of canned meat that were prepared for the Russians by the U.S.
1. Hard smoked pieces of ham
2. Corned beef with bay leafs.

Matthew Gajkowski

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 00:47:09 EDT
From:    John Sloan <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Spam in Europe

Emery,
There are some famous comments about spam in the Gulag but I don't have them
in front of me at the moment. Will try to find time to check for you. Think
it was served when Wallace visited or else some other American VIP.
JOhn sloan

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 00:50:28 EDT
From:    Matthew Gajkowski <[email-masked]>
Subject: German Rifle Grenades

Does anyone have any information regarding the penetrating

capabilities of the Gewehrpanzergranate 46 & 61, Grosse
Gewehr-Panzergranate 40, and the Gewehr Panzergranate 30?

How about the blast radius of the Gewehrsprenggranate and the
Gewehrsprenggranate "Weitschuss"?

Matthew Gajkowski

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 07:09:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USAAF 3 MAY 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
WEDNESDAY, 3 MAY 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 12 B-25s hit Kohima and Kalewa; 28
fighter-bombers pound ammunition dumps and other supplies at Mohnyin and N of
Nanyaseik; 9 P-38s hit airfields in the Meiktila area; and 7 P-40s attack
Lakatkawng and support ground forces in the area.
  88th Fighter Squadron, 80th Fighter Group, moves from Mokelbari, India to
Shingbwiyang, Burma with P-40s; during the month, a detachment begins
operating from Myitkyina, Burma.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 7 Chinese-American Composite Wing
(CACW) B-25s bomb the Mihsien town area and also hit numerous vehicles and
troops NE of Mihsien, between Yochou and Hsuchang, at Chihsien and N of
Yenling; the B-25s also strafe the town of Hsiangcheng; 4 B-25s and 8 P-40s
pound storage area at Tangyang airfield; 10 CACW P-40s score 11 direct hits
on a bridge over the Yellow River NW of Chenghsien, and destroy 15 trucks and
many troops between Loyang and Luchou. In French Indochina, 10 other P-40s on
armed reconnaissance sink 9 sampans near Cat Ba Island, knock out a bridge at
Bac Le, damage another at Kep, and pound Na Cham railroad yards.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 336: 47 of 51 B-24s bomb
the V-weapon site at Wizernes, France; 33 are damaged; 3 airmen are WIA.
Escort is provided by 48 P-47s and 53 P-51s without loss.
  Mission 337: 5 of 5 B-17s drop 960,000 leaflets on 26 towns in France,
Belgium and The Netherlands; 1 B-17 is damaged.
  9 B-24s are dispatched on CARPETBAGGER operations.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  AAF, MTO: 16th Reconnaissance Squadron (Heavy, Special), AAF, MTO, moves
from Foch Field, Tunisia to Foggia, Italy with B-17s; a detachment is
operating from Borgo, Corsica. The 16th serves as a radar detection and
countermeasures unit in the MTO.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s and B-26s pound
railway bridges at Monte Molino, Orvieto, and Taggia, bridge approaches at
Ficulle and Imperia, and Ventimiglia marshalling yards; A-20s attack
ammunition dumps; P-40s and P-47s attack rail lines, bridge, dump, guns and
buildings in the battle area and score 4 direct hits on an observation post S
of Cassino; vessels and docks at Civitavecchia and Montalto di Castro and
road bridges and rail lines in the area; town of Fondi and rail lines and
bridges nearby; railway bridges at Foligno, Sant'Elpidio a Mare and Grosseto;
viaduct at Terni; and numerous vehicles, dumps, railroads, vessels, and other
targets in the battle areas and in N Italy.
  447th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 321st Bombardment Group (Medium),
moves from Gaudo Airfield, Italy to Solenzara, Corsica with B-25s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-25s from Kwajalein Atoll bomb
Wotje Atoll while others, based at Makin Island, strike both Jaluit and Wotje
Atolls, using Majuro Atoll as a rearming base between raids.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On Bougainville Island, 8
P-39s bomb buildings at Monoitu; 17 others, in the course of 6 missions, hit
targets of opportunity, including Japanese-occupied huts and buildings at
Toiemonapu, Tinputs and Sisiruai, and bivouacs at Tarlena, Ratsua and
Mawareka. On New Britain Island, 24 B-25s bomb Kulon Plantation and a
personnel concentration to the NE. Allied fighter sweeps over the N Solomons
and the Bismarck Archipelago continue. P-40s returning from the New Britain
Island area bomb Pororan, Bougainville Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, 72 B-24s,
B-25s and A-20s thoroughly blast Wewak and Boram Airfields in a single raid;
about 120 A-20s, B-25s and fighter-bombers, operating throughout the day, hit
the Wewak and Hansa Bay areas, including targets at Nubia, Uligan, Mushu
Island, Wewak and Boram; airfields at Maffin Bay are bombed by B-25s.
  Moves in New Guinea: 7th and 8th Fighter Squadrons, 49th Fighter Group,
from Finschhafen and Gusap respectively to Hollandia with P-40s; 65th Troop
Carrier Squadron, 433d Troop Carrier Group, based at Nadzab with C-47s,
begins operating from Tadji.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 07:33:14 EDT
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MOnte Cassino

George,

I think one of the best recent works is FATAL DECISION by Carlo d'Este.
It covers the battles of Cassino and Anzio up to the fall of Rome.

AT the time of the bombing, the German commander did not have any
soldiers in the abbey itself.  There were some artillery
spotters on the hills close by, but no German troops occupied the
abbey until after the Allies bombed it.

Barry

>I have gotten the impression that Monte Cassino was considered an important
>battle in WWII.  Something about destroying the monastery occupied by
>German artillery.  However, I have also heard that the Germans were not
>actually there and that the story was invented.
>
>Can anybody cite a reference for me concerning the truth about MOnte
>Cassino?
>
>Thank you.
>
>
>  =========================================================================
>  | DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
>  |                                  | Computers in Business & Education. |
>  | Recently returned from my second | Education:  Curriculum development.|
>  |   extended stay in Prague.       |    International Education, TEFL.  |
>  | Working on second book about     | Central Europe:  Post revolution   |
>  |   Prague and new Czech Republic. |    economic, social, political     |
>  |                                  |    problems and opportunities.     |
>  |                                  |  B-25 in WWII.                     |
>  | E-Mail:                          | Free lance writing and editing.    |
>  |   USA:  [email-masked]    | Stamp collecting.                  |
>  =========================================================================

Barrett F. Lowe               RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, West Point  (e-mail:  [email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 07:55:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: C-SPAN D-Day Show

For those of you in the US and Canada, a show entitled REMEMBERING D-DAY
will be shown on C-SPAN on Saturday and Sunday, May 7 and 8, at 1:00 PM
EDT.  I have not seen it so have no idea of what it is about.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 14:30:00 CET
From:    Peter de Lange <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: USN Chronologies

> After reading many posts by Jack McKillop on the USAAF chronologies, I
> finally decided that it would be worth the effort to try to find and post a
> US Navy version of the same.  I found a chronology file at the byrd ftp
> site, and I plan to be posting each day's summary.  Most of these
>
> Theron P. Keller
> Logicon, Inc.
> Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
> [email-masked]

To be honest, my first thought was not so enthousiast, everyone who
want the USN-Chron can get them from Byrd.

My second thought: may be not everyone is able to FTP to Byrd, then
this is a good solution.

My third thought is very enthousiast, now we can do a day by day
discussion about the war at sea, very nice, very handsom.
I am sure Larry Jewell is glad to see how we use his work.

Theron Success!!
Peter de Lange

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 14:47:00 CET
From:    Peter de Lange <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: night fighters and attack aircraft

Robert Hohlt, asked:
>
> Peter,
>
> Do you have any information on the records of the carrier based night
> fighters and attack aircraft?
>
Answer : no.

In fact I am looking for such info too.
But my handicap is, nobody on the list gives a day by day record of
the USN squdrons.
I'll asked around here, if I found somewhat you get the data.
Peter de Lange

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 09:02:40 EDT
From:    Richard Kaplan <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: D-Day Casualties

John;
        Looking at John Polmar's encyclopedic World War II: America at War,
1941-1945, casualties (killed and wounded) were about even at 15,000 for each
side on June 6th.  Rommel's assessment for the entire month of June was "28
Generals, 354 Commanders, and approximately 250,000 men."

                                Richard Kaplan
                                Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 06:06:48 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 3 May 1944

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr44.txt

05/03 Wed.  United States naval vessels damaged:
             Destroyer escort DONNELL (DE-56), by submarine
              torpedo, North Atlantic area.
             Destroyer escort MENGES (DE-320), by submarine
              torpedo, western Mediterranean area.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 09:14:45 EDT
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor,
         Marist Coll" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: C-SPAN D-Day Show

>For those of you in the US and Canada, a show entitled REMEMBERING D-DAY
>will be shown on C-SPAN on Saturday and Sunday, May 7 and 8, at 1:00 PM
>EDT.  I have not seen it so have no idea of what it is about.
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
>|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
>|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
>|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
>-------------------------------------------------------------------
C-Span also just visited the FDR Home and Library here in Hyde Park
New York. I don't know when the program will air, but the FDR library
has an excellent new CD-ROM interactive display where you pretend to
be FDR and have to make decisions as to whether or not (and to what
extent) American aid should go to Britain (pre-12/7/41). I believe
C-Span will cover this display and the other WWII related displays.

Jonah Triebwasser
Adjunct Instructor
Marist College
Dyson Building (Adult Education)
Poughkeepsie, New York12601
Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
E-Mail: [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 09:32:25 EDT
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Spam in Europe

Emery,  I recently saw a television news fluff on Spam and Hormel's effort to
make SPam the taste of the 90s.  My words not Hormel's.  Growing up we had Spam
instead of lunch meat sometimes.  We had Spam for scrapple sometimes.  And
sometimes my mother would add Spam to chicken soup.  We probly had Spam more
maybe less than 6 time a month.  I bought some Spam for my family recently
and I was the only one to eat it.  I made Spam omelettes, Spam sandwiches and
Spam with linguini.  My childhood revisited.  Just remebered a CNN 10 second
piece this past or earlier on the Spam cookoff.  Don't remember where it was
held.  My father rode in B-17s later flew em during WWII.

H. A. Kurt Luginbyhl
Scientific Computer Specialist
National Museum of Natural History
Washington D.C. 20560

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 07:58:42 EDT
From:    Ingalls Steven MAJ <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: German Navy 1936

In response to your question regards the German/French naval balance and
composition of the German navy in 1936...

Of course, all my references are at home.  However, most comprehensive
bookstores (how do you know which are comprehensive?) have a reasonable section
on military history.  Almost any volume discussing U-boats of World War II
begins with their origins in WWI.  Most have some mention in the title
referring back to the 191-s.

It may require another reference to make the comparison with France.

A last source you might check is Jane's Fighting Ships for that year.  We are
fortunate to have a complete collection here and don't know how common that is.

MAJ Stephen A. Ingalls
USMA
West Point

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 10:07:41 EDT
From:    MR SKIP WILDER <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: USN Chronologies

        Bravo, Theron!  Appreciate your efforts.  Perhaps CAPT Tim Taylor,
USN ([email-masked]) can suggest other resources for your labors.

 -----------------------------------------------------------
 |    Skip Wilder              |                           |
 |    [email-masked]      |"The road to hell is paved |
 |    FAX (703)528-2103        | with good intentions."    |
 |    McLean, Virginia, U.S.A. |                           |
 -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 07:04:16 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: German Navy 1936

Hello, Norrin!

> I know this is before WWII, but I thought I'd give it a shot.  Does anyone
> know where I can find sources on both the composition of the German navy
> [and in particular U-boats] and the relative naval balance between France
> and Germany in 1936?

    Consult Cajus Bekker's book "Hitler's Navy".
There some tables and appendices that deal with that topic.

    There are others, and I will get these to you tomorrow.

    More later.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 07:00:43 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MOnte Cassino

Hello, George!

> I have gotten the impression that Monte Cassino was considered an important
> battle in WWII.

    Monte Cassino became the linchpin in the defense line of the
Germans in Italy. If it fell, then the whole German defense line
became untenable, and Monte Cassino was located in country ideal for
defense.

  Something about destroying the monastery occupied by
> German artillery.  However, I have also heard that the Germans were not
> actually there and that the story was invented.

    True, but given the Allied frustrations at being stalemated for
so long there, the story began to gain credence and was finally
believed and cogent arguments began to be heard about bombing the
monastery. A tragic mistake, because after it was bombed, then the
Germans did move into the monastery ruins and used it as an
observation post.

> Can anybody cite a reference for me concerning the truth about MOnte
> Cassino?

    There are several. Fred Majdalany's book "The Battle for Monte
Cassino.

    "The Race for Rome by Dan Kurzman

  There are others I have and will have to get their titles for you,
and will send them to you tomorrow.

    More later.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 09:32:54 -0500
From:    Jon Stevens <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Spam in Europe

On Mon, 2 May 1994, Emery Ford wrote:

> Hello all!
>         Hopefully nobody will get too upset at my excusion into the obscure.
> I was wondering if our national pride and glory, Spam, was exported in
> massive quantities to Europe and the Soviet Union during WWII.  Also,
> was Spam included in the rations for U.S. GIs?  Does anybody have any
> quotations of comments from foreign nationals who tried Spam?  I'm sure if
> the Russians tried it they may have converted from Communism long ago.
>
>         An annual Spam eater,
>
>                 --Emery
Emery,

My uncle who was at Gaum in WWII said that he loved spam and his buddies
hated it.  That made him glad as he always got enough spam while he was
in the army.  In fact he still loves spam.  I think he told me this was
part of the "C-Ration".  He also mentioned another ration that he
liked which was in the form of a high protein candy bar.  Again he said
that few people liked it but him.

Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, a wonderful spam.
Jon Stevens

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 07:17:25 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: P-61 Black Widow

Hello, Aldo, Emmanuel, Peter and others!

Here goes with the next installment on the history of the P-61.

  The heart of the XP-61 would be its Airborne Interception (AI)
Radar System. The AI radar evolved from a modified SCR 268
Searchlight Control Radar which had been flight tested iin a modified
Douglas B-18A. By 18 Jun 1941, the National Defense Research
Committee's Radiation Laboratory had completed its initial
development work on the AI radar which was slated for installation in
the XP-61. This radar designated the SCR-720 was produced by Western
Electric Company.

Production SCR-720A radars had a scanning radio transmitter mounted
in the nose of the aircraft with a range of almost 5 miles in the AI
mode. The SCR-720A could also be used as an airborne beacon or homing
service, a navigational aid and for operations in conjunction with
interrogator-responder (IFF) equipment. The radar operator in the XP-
61 would locate and track the target and once within range, the pilot
would close for the kill using a scope mounted in the center of his
instrument panel. The upper turret on the XP-61 could be controlled
and fired by any member of the three-man crew. The RO could traverse
the turret 180 degrees to fire on targets approaching from the rear
or elevate the guns 90 degrees to engage targets above the P-61. The
forward firing cannon, however, could only be fired by the pilot.

Construction of the XP-61 prototypes continued through the summer of
1941, although not without problems. The dorsal turret mounting ring
was impossible to mount in the aircraft, so Northrop opted to use a
pedastal mount like that used on the upper turret of the B-17. Then,
the turret itself became unavailable from the sub-contractor.
Experimental aircraft came second in priority to operational aircraft
and the same turret was used in the B-29. As a result, a dummy turret
was installed for flight testing. During Feb 1942, Curtiss notified
Northrop that the C5425-A10 automatic, full-feathering propellors
slated for installation on the XP-61 would not be available in time
for either the prototype's rollout or early flight tests. As a
result, Hamilton Standard Propellors were used until the Curtiss
units became available. Finally, on 8 May 1942, the first XP-61
prototype  (41-19509) rolled off the Hawthorne assembly line.

More tomorrow.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 10:56:34 EST
From:    Peter Storey <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Spam in Europe

-------------------------- ORIGINAL MESSAGE ---------------------------
> From: Emery Ford <[email-masked]>
>
> Hello all!
>         Hopefully nobody will get too upset at my excusion into the obscure.
> I was wondering if our national pride and glory, Spam, was exported in
> massive quantities to Europe and the Soviet Union during WWII.  Also,
> was Spam included in the rations for U.S. GIs?  Does anybody have any
> quotations of comments from foreign nationals who tried Spam?  I'm sure if
> the Russians tried it they may have converted from Communism long ago.
>
>         An annual Spam eater,
>
>                 --Emery

My father served in the RCAF in WW II.  He was stationed in the Yukon
and Nova Scotia.  Every once in a while he would tell me certain
experiences that he had in the services.  According to my father, Spam was
served quite frequently in the mess hall, so much so that it was universally
despised.  One night at dinner time one of his associates came into the
mess hall from the cold.  When he saw that Spam was being served again
for the umteenth time he wrang his hand and exclaimed with glee:  "OH BOY!!
 SPAM!!"  He was of course being very ironic.  He was acting as if he
was about to sit down to a steak dinner.  This vaudevillian bit of
humour apparently caused a great deal of humour amoungst his colleagues.
*************************************************************************
 Peter Storey                                      Phone (416) 978-3397
 Information Technology Services
 University of Toronto Library
 Internet: [email-masked]
*************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 16:34:00 CET
From:    Peter de Lange <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Question: Cannon/Machine Gun

> When dealing in aircraft, what is the difference between a cannon and
> a machine gun. Both are rapid fire? Is it a question of accuracy or rifle
> barrling?
>
This problem was discussed in 1940.
Both are rapid fire, but the mg much rapier (new word?)
The cannon gives a heavier bullet.
That means, with a mg a bigger chance to hit then with a cannon.
If you are fighting against fighters the most prefere mg, a better
chance to hit and a fighter cannot take so much damage.
If you are fighting against bombers, the most prefere cannon, a
bomber is easier to hit and a connon gives much more damage.
So it depend on the target.
In 1940 one Spitfire sqd (605 ?) flew with cannon but this was a
failure against the 109 and after a month they were converted back
to mg.
Peter de Lange

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 16:49:25 GMT,BST
From:    John Gillies <[email-masked]>
Subject: Spam in Europe

I well remember people eating Spam - especially Spam fritters - in
(immediate) post- war Scotland. Three (disconnected) thoughts occur
to me on the subject:

1. One focus of controversy here in Britain about the D-Day
"Celebrations"  (many veterans' groups were angry that the British
government had planned to turn what should, in the vets' view, be a
solemn occasion into a series of frivolous "celebrations", including
a large "piss-up" in Hyde Park) - was one of the planned "sideshow"
events - a "Spam-cooking contest".

2. When I was a kid, the area of my home town where the upwardly-
mobile settled was known disparagingly as "Spam Valley" - a
reference to the supposed fact that the inhabitants spent all their
income on the outward trappings of social success and were,
accordingly, only able to dine on Spam instead of "real" meat.

3. The old philosophical dictum (origin unknown - to me):
    "I'm pink, therefore I'm Spam."

Forgive these random musings!
John

John Gillies
Department of Psychology
Adam Smith Building
University of Glasgow
Glasgow  G12 8RT                      Tel: (0)41 339 8855 ext.5351
Scotland
                         [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 17:05:25 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Spam in Europe

Err Gentlemen,

Having only known Spam through Monty Python sketches, could anyone inform
the community about the ingredients of said product, and give the
reasons why it is the elixir of life?

Frankly I'm a faggot man myself.

Steve Baldwin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 12:16:57 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Spam in Europe

All this spam reminds me of a (probably apocryphal) story about Vienna
sausages I picked up out of Reader's digest 20 years ago.  Seems in early
'45, a British unit in northern Italy had been living on cans of Vienna
sausages as the mainstay of its food ration for entirely too long.  One
night while listening to the radio, the BBC broadcast that allied bombers
had struck at Vienna.  A voice arose out of the darkness, "I hope to hell
they got that bloody factory!" (-:

ken koester
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 11:32:59 CDT
From:    Robert Hohlt <[email-masked]>
Subject: Bangalore Torpedos

Ok experts,

Has there ever been a mixed drink named after this device (Bangalore Torpedo)?

Robert Hohlt, Jr.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 12:51:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: P-61 radar

One of the things us old Bell System types heard many years ago was that
the P-61 had to be a big aircraft to house and carry the original Western
Electric Co radar which was a very large piece of gear.  (It was one of the
first, if not the first, AI radar to go into mass production in the US.)
Then four years later, they were hanging AI radar in little radomes on
P-38Ms, F6Fs, F4Us, etc.  Makes you stop and think about the rapid technical
develpments during the war.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 12:49:34 -0400
From:    Emery Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Spam in Europe

>
>
>Unfortunately, SPAM was widely exported to the allies, including Russia.
>
>Also, unfortunately, I have a quote by Stalin regarding SPAM, but can't locate
>it at the moment, it seems.
>
>The opinion in Russia is about the same as it was here (and still is).  About
>the best they could say is that it kept you alive.  :-)

I'm particularly interested in a Stalin quote on Spam.   It would seem to me
that the Russians should love the stuff since I thought they had a shortage of
adequate meat in their diets.

By the way, are there books out there that cover most of Stalin's famous, as
well as infamous, quotes?

--Emery
.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 10:22:46 CDT
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WWII-L Meeting at Jefferson Barracks

The WWII event went well at Jefferson Barracks, despite the poor
weather.  Unfortunately, no one met me at the 11th Panzer campsite at
11am.  If you were at the event, we missed each other.

The weather dominated the events on Saturday.  The normal German
encampment area was so waterlogged that my unit chose a site next to the
horse stables.  Friday night unit members moved into the hayloft of the
barn due to the stream of water flowing through their Zeltbahn tents.
It made for a more interesting and realiztic setting for the 11th
Panzer, for that is a more realistic choice for a long term stay.

The weather Saturday poured all morning until about 10am, and then broke
becoming a light drizzle.  It stayed like that all afternoon.  It was
decided to hold only one battle, which kicked off around 1:30.  The
battle went well, however the small number of attendees in the crowd and
poor weather made for a quick battle.  The displays went on for the rest
of the afternoon.

The USO Show and dance was the one of the best I've seen--the facility
used, the JB mess hall is huge, and well suited for the dance.  It is
about the soze of three basketball courts, and about 1/3 of that was a
dance floor.  All the tables were filled to capacity.  The big band
Sentimental Journey played and did a terriffic job.  My only complaint
was for the second song of the Jitterbug Contest they played Elvis
Presley's "Jailhouse Rock", which prompted several reenactor to boo, and
several ask--"Elvis who?" If you are going to have a jitterbug,
jitterbug to swing music.  The other low point of the evening was the
Achey Breaky Heart polka line dance.  Can't we ever escape from this
song even in 1944?

Despite those two detractors, the jitterbug contest had several terriffi
c couples and the winners deserved to win.  They also did a line march
to the various organizational themes ("As the caisson's go rolling
along") which got all the reenactors involved and mixed with the general
public.  It was a hoot to say the least.

One particularly unusal part of this event was the appearance of two
prostitutes who were soliciting reenactors.  I've never seen anything
like this before, or heard of anything like it before at an event.  They
ended up coming back to the campsites and trying to get business
there--they even went into the hayloft, however no one was interested
and they left frustrated.  I was shocked that they were at this event,
however it didadd an element of realism I've never seen before.

Sunday was a terriffic day, and I went to the militaria show.  It was
quite good, however pricey.  I purchased a WWII officers notebook, with
an Army Eagle and branch insignia all around the sides for $5, two
framed Varga cards for $25, and an aircraft recognition manual for $25.

The schedule was for one battle on Sunday at 1:00pm.  The battle went
well, and lasted for about 45 minutes because the 11th Panzer Armored
car crew wanted to drain their propane tanks for their MG and
cannon--they just refused to die for about 15 minutes longer than
expected which dragged the battle out--much to everyone's enjoyment.

Overall it was a good event and I am sorry that others missed it.  The
scuttlebut was that the event may be held twice a year, to include the
USO show.  I hope this is true, and it happens, for it was a good time.

I'm hoping to try again next year to have a meeting, so mark your
calenders.  TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 18:45:05 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Question: Cannon/Machine Gun

On Tue, 3 May 1994, Peter de Lange wrote:

> When dealing in aircraft, what is the difference between a cannon and
> a machine gun. Both are rapid fire? Is it a question of accuracy or rifle
> barrling?

It is a complicated decision, based on muzzle velocity (determining range,
accuracy, and to some extent the damage inflicted), the damage inflicted by
larger or explosive bullets, rate of fire (important because the enemy
aircraft is only in the gunsight for a very brief time), weight, drag,
ammunition supply, and reliability. During WWII several policies were
adopted.

Before WWII, the British tested a number of guns to select a new one to
replace the old 0.303 (7.7mm) Vickers mg still fitted in most of their
aircraft. At that time they found that the .50 (12.7mm) mg did little more
damage than the .303, and was less reliable. The 20mm cannon was slow-firing,
heavy and unreliable. So they decided to fit eight .303 Colt guns in their
new fighters.  As the war went on it became increasingly clear that the .303
lacked hitting power; the new, fast aircraft were much sturdier than that of
WWI. It was considered to fit 12 .303 mgs in the fighters, but finally the
20mm cannon was adopted. The first experiments with 20mm had been a failure;
they were too heavy, unreliable, and drum-fed -- the drum contained only a
small number of cartridges and caused much drag. Later the 20mm Hispano
cannon was developed into a much better weapon, and it became the standard
weapon for RAF fighters. The Hawker Tempest carried four 20mm cannon,
completely buried in a rather thin wing.

The USAF had adopted the .50 mg for its fighters, usually six guns, eight in
the P-47. The .50 was also found in the gun turrets of its bombers.  The .50
was unable to damage the structure of modern aircraft; you had to hit the
fuel tanks, ammunition or pilot with it. It was acceptable for the US because
it mainly had to deal with enemy fighters, --- and that included the Japanese
aircraft with their light construction and lack of armor. The .50 was
certainly not entirely satisfactory, but its deficiency was not clear until
the Korean war.

The Luftwaffe began the war with a mix of 7.9mm and 13mm mgs and 20mm cannon.
The early 20mm MG FF cannon had a low muzzle velocity; later weapons as the
MG 151/20 were much better. It was found out, however, that even 20mm cannon
were not powerful enough to bring down the B-17s in a single firing pass.
Towards the end of the war, many German fighters had 30mm cannon. They were
designed to be light, had a low muzzle velocity, but great hitting power.  A
problem for the Luftwaffe was that its fighters were not suitable for such
heavy armament; especially the performance and handling of the Me 109
suffered badly.

The Japanese and Russians built relatively light and small aircraft, so
they had to fit less armament. The USSR quickly adopted 20mm cannon, but
fitted only one or two to most fighters, and added a few mgs. The Japanese
basically took the same decision, but were somewhat slower in their
development.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 13:04:42 -0400
From:    "J.M.Ruel" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Spam in Europe

SPAM is mostlt composed og pork shoulder, ground and seasoned. It is sold as
aluncheon loaf under the disguise of " Spiced Luncheon Loaf." It has a high
fat content along with pleanty of salt and nitrates and nitrites. I never
thought it so bad. Fried with scrambled eggs it takes the place of bacon or
ham. I have had worse from "c" rations. Corned beef hash was my all time bad
meal. I usually tried to get the pork and beans or spaghetti.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 11:41:47 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: P-61 Black Widow

Hello, John!

Thanks for the note.

> Interesting information. Just one correction.  The name is spelled with
> an O, not a U.  Its Jack Northrop.  It amazes me how many people think it
> is the other way.  That is all.

    Yeah! I didn't really pay attention to the spelling. Northrup is
the Norwegian spelling and -op is the Anglicized version.

    Thanks again.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 11:33:34 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TAC: River Platte (Graf Spee)

Hello, Bengt!

> I would like to say to this that it may say something about Doenitz, but it
> doesn't say much about the nazification of the German Navy.

    I agree with that sentiment. It was very difficult for the Nazi
Party to make itself felt in a submarine that is thousands of miles
away from home base away from such influences.

> Did these statements change the actions and convictions of the average
> German sailor? I'm sure you could find similar statements from Goering,
> but if you did, would that say anything about the political opinions of
> the pilots of the Luftwaffe? I think not.

    Not really.

> I can't back this up with any figures, but I would think that many of the
> officers of the Kriegsmarine were men who had fought in the old Imperial
> Navy. So it wouldn't surprise me if they had very little sympathy for
> the Nazis. The fact that a man like Langsdorff rose to command a ship that
> at the time was the pride of the German Navy must say something about the
> failure to nazify the navy.

    Many of the submariners came to the German Navy in 1935 at the
time of the rearmament and expansion of the service. Many of those
selected for the duty were idealists and not motivated out of
political intent.

> Besides, was there ever during the 1930's or during the war a serious
> attempt to remove Non-Nazi officers from the Wehrmacht and to promote
> Party members instead? I don't know, but perhaps someone else does?

    After 1944 and the bomb plot attempts were made to ensure loyalty
and security. You might consider the case of FM Walther Model who,
happened not only to be a competent officer, but a zealous Nazi. So
was FM Ferdninand Schoerner. Consider the appointment of Heinrich
Himmler as C-in-C of Army Group Vistula after July 20, 1944. All
these were top political appointments based on their Party loyalty.
Model and Schoerner were both good officers, whereas Himmler was a
different case entirely.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 15:47:24 +0000
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Spam in Europe

On Tue, 3 May 1994, Stephen Baldwin wrote:

> Err Gentlemen,
>
> Having only known Spam through Monty Python sketches, could anyone inform
> the community about the ingredients of said product, and give the
> reasons why it is the elixir of life?

I was waiting for somebody to bring up that sketch. I haven't been able
to read my E-Mail these days without thinking of it. FYI, SPAM is an
acronym for _Spiced Ham_. It's really made of pork products (not your
finest Black Forest variety) and spices and packed neatly into a can.
IMHO it's terrible, but I guess it beats starving.
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 13:32:24 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Spam in Europe

A more 'memorable' (as in, hideous) item of wartime food was POWDERED EGG.
The word "Yuk!" cannot possibly do justice to that well-meaning abomination.
Intended to help the hapless British public (and military) augment their
weekly ration of one real egg, powdered egg was supplied by the Ministry
of Food. This yellow powder, purportedly made from dried eggs, was mixed
with water for cooking in various ways.  When fried, powdered egg resulted
in a rubberoid object that would have performed quite well as a repair-patch
for automobile tires.  :-)

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 15:04:27 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: German Navy 1936

Hello, again, Norrin!

Just a quick note to tell you that the correct title for the book I
quoted you earlier today is entitled: "Hitler's Naval War" by Cajus
Bekker. It is thorough and there are many appendices that deal with
specific aspects of German naval developments. Will try to find
others.

More later.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 15:08:40 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 05-03-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr44.txt

1944
05/03 Wed.  United States naval vessels damaged:
             Destroyer escort DONNELL (DE-56), by submarine
              torpedo, North Atlantic area.
             Destroyer escort MENGES (DE-320), by submarine
              torpedo, western Mediterranean area.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 16:38:48 -0400
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: USN Chronology 3 May 1944

>UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
>from:
>//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr44.txt
>

I decided to cruise this site and looked up some info relating to my father
and the vessel he served on and found:

- 12/03  Sun  United States naval vessel sunk:
- Destroyer COOPER (DD-695), by torpedo from undetermined source, Ormoc
Bay, P. - I., 10 d. 54'N., 124 d. 36'E.
- United States naval vessels damaged, Ormoc Bay, P. I.:
- Destroyer ALLEN M. SUMNER (DD-691), by horizontal bomber.
-                                10 d. 54'N., 124 d. 36'E.
-                        Destroyer MOALE (DD-693), by naval gunfire,
-                                10 d. 54'N 124 d. 36'E.

Only problem is that the ALLEN M. SUMNER was DD-692 NOT DD-691 so I am
curious as to who created and is maintaining this post? Is this official
Naval History or is this a post created from "unofficial" naval histories?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka                                         National Warplane Museum
Cornell University                                 Geneseo, New York
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 15:47:30 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Tirpitz

For William Ely III --
        Re: Stalag Luft III...

There are two new books just out that may be of interest to you, both
no doubt sparked by the recent 50th anniversary of the Great Escape from
Stalag Luft III and the Gestapo murders of 50 of the RAF escapers.
        BOLDLY TO THE FOE: ALLIED AIRCREW PRISONERS-OF-WAR IN GERMANY,
                1939-1942, by Charles Rollings.
        MOONLESS NIGHT: ONE MAN'S STRUGGLE FOR FREEDOM, 1940-1945,
                by B.A. Jimmy James.
Rollings is an excellent author, with several other well-researched
books to his credit.
        Pilor Officer James' is a more personal story. He escaped repeatedly
from German PW camps, finally from Luft III in March, 1944. He was one of
the few not shot in reprisal after recapture.  Instead, he was sent to the
infamous Sachsenhausen concentration camp. P/O James even managed to escape
from there, but was caught again, and put in the Death Block. He was reprieved
only by being taken by the SS as a hostage, along with many 'political
prominenten', to be held in Hitler's Tyrolean Redoubt. There, he was
finally liberated by American troops.
        Both books from: Sentinel Publishing, 38 St. Ann's Road,
                         London N15 6DU, England.
Rollings' study is 1000 (one thousand) pages long, so it costs 35 pounds STLG
James' costs only US$23, trade paperback.
Both fascinating reading, how it was to be a 'Kriegie'.
(Not a bit as merry a time as they showed on "Hogan's Heroes")

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 15:57:54 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Question: Cannon/Machine Gun

Nice summary, Emmanuel...
        One odd factor in the RAF's decision to stick with .303 calibre
(oops, sorry, caliBER, to you) in 1930, was the fact the British then
still had an enormous stock of .303 ammo from the First World War.
The RAF chose the American Colt/Browning m.g. design, but had it
re-tooled for .303 -- something we all had reason to regret throughout
WW2. Rifle-calibre m.g. ammo proved awfully inadequate in a modern air
war. It was not until late 1944 that RAF gunners got what we deserved,
the Rose Turret with four Fifties  (.50's)

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 17:29:42 -0700
From:    Gerry Walker <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: P-61 Black Widow

This is super stuff, Peter.

Thanks,

Cheers,

Gerry Walker

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 May 1994 03:07:28 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Question: Cannon/Machine Gun

On Tue, 3 May 1994, Sidney Allinson wrote:

>         One odd factor in the RAF's decision to stick with .303 calibre
> (oops, sorry, caliBER, to you) in 1930, was the fact the British then
> still had an enormous stock of .303 ammo from the First World War.
> The RAF chose the American Colt/Browning m.g. design, but had it
> re-tooled for .303 -- something we all had reason to regret throughout
> WW2. Rifle-calibre m.g. ammo proved awfully inadequate in a modern air
> war. It was not until late 1944 that RAF gunners got what we deserved,
> the Rose Turret with four Fifties  (.50's)

To be precise: the gun retooled for .303 ammunition was the .30 Colt, not
the .50 Colt. Had also something to do with the type of cartridge; I
think British cartridges were rimmed and US cartridges not, or the other
way around.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 May 1994 21:53:52 EDT
From:    John Mcclintock <[email-masked]>
Subject: five rules

I don't know if this is an item of personal or general army lore.  My father,
who served in Europe from 1943 to 1946, told me about "five rules."  I can
only remember three for sure:

1. move your bowels once a day
2. make five copies
3. stay out of headquarters

a fourth may have been : 4. never volunteer

Does anyone have a similar set?

Thanks.  John McClintock

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 2 May 1994 to 3 May 1994
***********************************************