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There are 57 messages totalling 1920 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. INF: Axis troop distribution, 6 June, 1944
  2. INF: USN Chronology 06-02-94
  3. MEDIA: CNN COVERAGE OF D-DAY (3)
  4. U.S. NAVY PHOTOS & SHIP INFO (2)
  5. MEDIA: ASSOCIATE PRESS INTERVIEW
  6. Doug MacArthur
  7. [INF] USAAF 2 JUN 44
  8. USN News
  9. INF: 50 Years Ago Today - 02-JUN-1944
 10. GEN:  Research and Interlibrary loan (2)
 11. U.S. NAVY PHOTOS & SHIP INFO -Reply
 12. PREDUZECE Marling on Kar98(k)
 13. MEDIA: "D-Day + 50 . . .Normandy"
 14. Re[2]: WEAPONS/Mauser 98
 15. WEAPONS/Mauser 98 (2)
 16. Greetings from Moscow (2)
 17. C-47 and para drops (3)
 18. MEDIA: Disturbing Trend (5)
 19. INF: Regia Marina, Part 7
 20. Black Widow Squadrons and CO's
 21. <No subject given>
 22. TRV:D-Day (11)
 23. WANT: Boatswain's Whistle
 24. Italian Marines (2)
 25. Re[2]: TRV:D-Day
 26. Insignia (4)
 27. subscription
 28. Chicago D-Day Reenactment
 29. Re[2]: Insignia
 30. Battle of Bulge
 31. ARC: Utah Beach to Cherbourg at byrd.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Jun 1994 23:09:09 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: INF: Axis troop distribution, 6 June, 1944

UNITED STATES ARMY IN WORLD WAR II: The European Theater of
Operations, CROSS CHANNEL ATTACK, by Gordon A. Harrison, Office
of the Chief of Military History, Department of the Army,
Washington, D.C., 1951

(5) Divisons Available to Germany on 6 June 1944 (Based on
German Situation Maps)

Theater                 Inf type       Pz type       Misc
----------------------------------------------------------------
Denmark                   2             1 + 2 Brig    3
Norway                   11
Finland                  10
Eastern Front           122            25 + 1 Brig   17 + 1 Brig
OB SUEDOST  (Balkans)    20             2             3
OB SUEDWEST  (Italy)     17 + 1 Brig    7             1
OB WEST (France and
         Low Countries   41 + 1 Rgt    11             9
Zone of Interior          3 + 1 Brig    1 + 2 Brig    4 + 2 Brig
----------------------------------------------------------------
Total German Divisions  226 + 2 Brig,  47 + 5 Brig   37 + 3 Brig
                              1 Rgt

AXIS SATELLITES
Finnish, Eastern Front   14 + 8 Brig    1             1 Brig
 and Finland
Romanian, Eastern Front  17 + 5 Brig    1             2
 and Romania
Hungarian, Eastern Front  9 + 2 Brig    2             5
 and Hungary
Bulgarian, Occupation    11
 Duty in Balkans and
 Bulgaria
Italian, In Zone of       4
 Interior
----------------------------------------------------------------
Total Axis Satellite     55 + 16 Brig   4             7 + 1 Brig
 Divisions

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 01:24:33 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@CCLINK.LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 06-02-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
06/02 Fri.  Japanese naval vessel sunk:
             Frigate AWAJI, by submarine GUITARRO (SS-363), off
              Formosa,
              22 d. 34' N., 121 d. 51' E.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 13:57:32 +0200
From:    John Ausland <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: MEDIA: CNN COVERAGE OF D-DAY

  Oslo, June 2.  CNN began its buildup to D-Day yesterday.  A number of newscast
carried the first of Mark Leff's "On this day...", which portrayed what was
happening on June 1 around the world.  These will continue until June 6.
  Hilary Bowker announced on the International Hour that live coverage would
begin tomorrow.  According to the White House press schedule, there will be
ceremonies commemorating the liberation of Italy at Nettuno Beach, at which
President Clinton will speak.
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 10:52:00 CET
From:    Peter de Lange <MIMHCC@RULMVS.LEIDENUNIV.NL>
Subject: Re: U.S. NAVY PHOTOS & SHIP INFO

> I am doing some research for my dad, who served on the U.S.S. Swanson
> (DD443) during WWII in the Pacific Theater.  I wanted to get

In the USN-chronology I found the next about the USS DD-443 Swanson
11/16/42 Mon : U-173 sunk by destroyers Woolsey, Swanson and Quick
               off Casablanca, Marocco
 7/10/43 Sat : Sicily landings, Swanson damaged by collisson.
Hopes this helps and give your father my greetings.
Peter de Lange

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 13:59:25 +0200
From:    John Ausland <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: MEDIA: ASSOCIATE PRESS INTERVIEW

  Oslo, June 2.  An Associated Press journalist interviewed me the other day
about my book LETTERS HOME.  Heaven knows what will happen to this.  If anyone
sees anything in the press, I would appreciate a copy.
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 06:33:21 -0400
From:    "dan.ford" <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Doug MacArthur

On Wed, 1 Jun 1994, Mr. Scott Hannon wrote:
> Unfortunately the Australian histories are not generally available in the
> USA. And I was recently told _Blood and Iron_ is now out of print. I've
> been unable to obtain any of these (or the official Australian histories),
> so I imagine others have a hard time as well.

I haven't tried it with these books, but I have borrowed New Zealand air
force histories thru inter-library loan. If you can telnet, go to
locis.loc.gov (Library of Congress) and get the full publisher's
information. Their collection is extensive, and they *will* loan books
despite what your local inter-library-loan dictator may tell you. He or
she (probably she!) may well go to Ausralia rather than borrow from LOC,
and then tell you when the book arrives that it is already overdue, but
with persistence you can win through.

            - Dan      <dan.ford@unh.edu>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 07:10:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 2 JUN 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
THURSDAY, 2 JUNE 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): In the Kurile Islands, 2 B-24s, finding
Shimushiru Island overcast, bomb and photograph Matsuwa Island (the
secondary) during dawn.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): B-25s continue to fly ammunition into the
Imphal, India area. 12 B-24s airborne against Yenangyaung, Burma fail to hit
the primary but unload against alternates in the area.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 80+ P-40s and P-51s pound troops
and vehicles at Tungcheng and Chungyang and strafe a concentration of about
75 sampans on Tungting Lake.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): The role of the heavy bombers from
2-5 Jun in preparation for the invasion of Normandy on 6 Jun includes
continuation of attacks against transportation and airfield targets in N
France and the institution of a series of blows against coastal defenses,
mainly located in the Pas de Calais coastal area, to deceive the enemy as to
the sector to be invaded (Operation COVER).
  Mission 384: In the morning, 521 of 633 B-17s and 284 of 293 B-24s hit V-
weapon sites in the Pas de Calais area; 11 B-17s are damaged; 1 airman is
KIA, 1 WIA and 1 MIA.
  Mission 385: In the afternoon, 242 B-17s are dispatched to railroad targets
in the Paris area; 163 hit the primaries, 49 hit Conches Airfield, 12 hit
Beaumont-sur-Oise Airfield and 1 hits Caen/Carpiquet Airfield; 77 B-24s are
dispatched to Bretigny Airfield in France; 13 hit the primary target, 47 hit
Creil Airfield and 14 hit Villeneuve Airfield; 2 B-17s and 5 B-24s are lost,
2 B-24s are damaged beyond repair and 90 B-17s and 37 B-24s damaged; 1 airman
is KIA, 4 WIA and 68 MIA.
  3 of 7 P-38s hit the Ostend Bridge, Belgium without loss.
  3 B-17s fly weather reconnaissance over the Atlantic.
  During the evening, 5 B-17s drop leaflets on targets in Belgium and
France; and 18 B-24s fly CARPETBAGGER operations.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): A special conference for ground
liaison officers is held by 21 Army Group officers who present a detailed
exposition of the plan for the landings in Normandy.
  In France, about 350 B-26s and A-20s bomb NOBALL (V-weapon) targets and
coastal defense batteries along the English Channel coast; P-38s and P-47s
dive-bomb targets in the area, including V-weapon sites, fuel dump, railroad
junctions and bridges.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Shuttle-bombing between Italy
and the USSR (Operation FRANTIC) is started. Under command of Lieutenant
General Ira C Eaker, 130 B-17s, escorted by 70 P-51s, bomb the marshalling
yard at Debreczen, Hungary and land in the Soviet Union-the B-17s at Poltava
and Mirgorod, the P-51s at Piryatin. 1 B-17 is lost over the target; 27 other
B-17s, forced off course en route to the Oradea, Rumania marshalling yard,
also hit Debreczen. Nearly 400 other B-24s attack marshalling yards at
Szeged, Miskolc and Szolnok, Hungary and Simeria, Rumania. P-51s and P-38s
provide escort.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium bombers attack
road and rail bridges from N of the battle area just below Rome to areas N of
Rome; fighter-bombers continue to blast motor transport, railways, trains,
command posts, roads, and bridges in the battle area, having particularly
good success against vehicles.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): In the Gilbert Islands, B-25s
based on Makin Island, strike Nauru Island.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 24
B-24s pound the Nordup area and 48 P-38s, P-39s, and P-40s attack the
Vunakanau area. 30+ P-39s attack the airfield at Buka, Buka Island, Solomon
Islands, and supplies in the Kara-Kahili area of Bougainville Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, B-25s bomb
the Kaukenau-Timoeka area while B-24s bomb positions N of Mokmer Airfield;
B-24s and B-25s hit bivouacs NE of Sawar airfield and near the Wiske River
and bomb roads along W bank of the Orai River; B-24s, P-39s, and Royal
Australian Air Force (RAAF) airplanes hit the Wewak area; C-47s of the 65th
and 66th Troop Carrier Squadrons, 433d Troop Carrier Group, cease operating
from Tsili Tsili and return to base at Nadzab. Thirteenth Air Task Force
B-24s bomb Dublon Island, Truk Atoll, Caroline Islands.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 07:26:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: USN News

FROM THE NAVY NEWS SERVICE



-----------------------------------------------------------------
Navy News Service - NAVNEWS BY EMAIL
-----------------------------------------------------------------
NAVY NEWS SERVICE - 01 JUN 94 - NAVNEWS 032/94

NNS336.  President to Attend D-Day Events on USS George Washington
NNS348.  This Week in the Navy:  June 6, 1944
                              -    USN-
NNS336.  President to Attend D-Day Events on USS George Washington
LONDON (NNS) -- President Bill Clinton and a group of D-Day
veterans will travel with the aircraft carrier USS George
Washington (CVN 73) across the English Channel to participate in
the commemoration of the 50th anniversary of D-Day June 6.
Accompanying President Clinton will be Secretary of Defense William
Perry, Secretary of the Navy John H. Dalton, Chairman of the Joint
Chiefs of Staff GEN John M. Shalikashvili, Chief of Naval
Operations ADM Mike Boorda and Commandant of the Marine Corps GEN
Carl E. Mundy Jr.
      The official ceremonies will begin with a sunrise memorial
service on USS George Washington at sea off Omaha Beach and Pointe
du Hoc, where Americans landed on D-Day.
     The activities mark the June 6, 1944 Allied invasion of
Normandy, the largest amphibious assault in history.  Allied naval
forces landed more than 200,000 troops and their equipment on the
Normandy beaches in 48 hours, a feat that led to the liberation of
Europe and is regarded as the turning point of World War II.
     Thirteen U.S. Navy ships, led by USS George Washington in its
first overseas deployment, will form "U.S. D-Day Fleet '94" and
join with European Allies in commemorative events afloat.
Retracing the historic voyage from ports in Great Britain to
Normandy, the D-Day fleet ships and some 14,000 U.S. Sailors and
Marines will visit Plymouth, Portsmouth, Southampton, Torquay,
Portland, Weymouth and Milford-Haven from June 2 to 5.
                                  -USN-
NNS348.  This Week in the Navy:  June 6, 1944 -- The Allies invade
Europe at Normandy.  Nearly 2,500 U.S. Navy ships and craft were
involved in the largest amphibious assault ever.  At one beach
alone, 21,328 troops, 1,742 vehicles and 1,695 tons of supplies
were landed in 12 hours.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 07:42:35 -0500
From:    John Davis <JBDML@OSBM6.OSBM.STATE.NC.US>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago Today - 02-JUN-1944

On 02-JUN-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Prelude to Operation Overlord - General Dwight Eisenhower, from a caravan in
     the woods near Portsmouth, issues orders for the invasion of France. He
     has under his command 1,700,000 Americans, 1,000,000 British and
     Canadians and 300,000 Free French, Poles, Belgians, Dutch, Norwegians and
     Czechs. The planned invasion date is Monday, June 5th. After intercepting
     the poem by Verlaine, the German 15th Army is alerted. Due to a
     misunderstanding between the Army Supreme Command (Jodl), Western General
     Headquarters (Rundstedt) and the Army Group B headquarters (Rommel), the
     German 7th Army which is guarding the Normandy coast never gets the
     warning.

Italian Front - The German forces are gradually disengaging along the entire
     Allied front. Units of the 85th Division capture Maschio d'Ariano, Monte
     Fiore and Monte Ceraso. The 7th and 39th Regiments of the U.S. 3rd
     Division advance in the Palestina and Valmontone areas which have been
     recently abandoned by the Germans.

New Guinea - The 186th Infantry attacks westward towards the airfields on
     Biak. In the coastal sector the battalions of the 162nd block a road that
     leads to the interior and force the Japanese out of one of their
     postitions.

Burma/China - The final siege of Myitkyina begins. The Chinese dig tunnels to
     get inside the Japanese lines. On the Salween river front, the Chinese
     36th Division captures the village of Kaitou and surrounds Chiaotou in
     the valley of the Shweli.

India - On the Arakan front, Indian divisions have re-established contact and
     resumed the initiative against the Japanese. On the Indian front the 7th
     Indian Division succeeds in breaking through the lines of the Japanese
     31st Division north of Kohima. The Japanese begin to withdraw slowly.

Naval Dispatches
----------------
Japanese frigate AWAJI sunk by submarine GUITARRO (SS-363), off of Formosa.

The Homefront
-------------
Six Sentenced in Nazi Agent Case - Federal Judge Thomas F. Meaney has
     sentenced six former officials of the German-American Vocational League
     to two years imprisonment. All were convicted on May 18th of conspiring
     to evade registration as Nazi propoganda agents.

$1,500,000,000 Road Program - The House Committee on Roads has approved a bill
     providing $1,500,000,000 for the construction of roads, bridges and
     railroad crossings.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  jbd@osbm.state.nc.us
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 08:17:04 -0500
From:    "W.C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <ERCOUPE@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: GEN:  Research and Interlibrary loan

>I haven't tried it with these books, but I have borrowed New Zealand air
>force histories thru inter-library loan. If you can telnet, go to
>locis.loc.gov (Library of Congress) and get the full publisher's
>information. Their collection is extensive, and they *will* loan books
>despite what your local inter-library-loan dictator may tell you. He or
>she (probably she!) may well go to Ausralia rather than borrow from LOC,
>and then tell you when the book arrives that it is already overdue, but
>with persistence you can win through.
>
>            - Dan      <dan.ford@unh.edu>

Tell you what, Dan...next time maybe your ILL 'dictator' should tell
you to go packing and get it yourself.  It is comments like this,
reflecting on those who have one of the most thankless jobs in
libraries, that makes their job even more difficult.  I hope you
meant it lightly....else I just may have to forward your posting
to the ILL-L listserver ;^).

I think there are many on this list who owe a great deal to those
people who facilitate the retrieval of material, more often than
not from obscure references.  Yes, DLC (that's the real ID for
the Library of Congress) will lend, but they are selective and
their policies about lending are not at all predictable based on the
type of material requested.  An ILL department cannot 'shotgun' requests
out to 20 sites hoping for one response.  They usually go to
the 'most likely' source that will permit borrowing.  They then route
the request to other likely sources in order of probable fill.  There are
enough negative responses coming back from the Library of Congress to
warrant putting it way down on the list of potential suppliers.

Further, there are people out there who listen to the media about
this 'information superhighway' and come away with the perception that
EVERYTHING in print is available at a moments notice, so the ILL
department should get it immediately for them and let them keep
it forever.

ILL people are not 'dictators' rather they are like the ubiquitous
saloon piano players, trying to please everyone, but dodging bullets
from all those rowdies who do not like the tune being played.

And as an aside...recent research has shown that the cost of a completed
ILL transaction is probably in excess of $30.00 when all factors are
considered.  So unless you are paying this amount for each of those
sources obtained, you are getting a real deal.  I sure wouldn't complain.

Forgive the tirade..but since the folks on this list are seem to be
quite academically inclined, it was worth mentioning...IMHO.


Bill


#### W.C. (Rusty) Divens ####
####    Access Services  ####       |__*__|        N93774+@pitt.edu
#### Falk Library of the ####  =======( )=======   ERCOUPE+@pitt.edu
####   Health Sciences   ####      |   |   |                   /|\
####   200 Scaife Hall   #### (Echo Romeo Charlie)           /  |) \
####   U of Pittsburgh   ####                              /    |)   \
####   Pgh, PA  15261    ####  wcd@icarus.lis.pitt.edu   /_____ |)    )
####  FAX: 412-648-9020  ####  DIVENS@shrsys.hslc.org    ---~~~~~~~----
####  VOX: 412-648-1013  ####                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
#### ARIEL:136.142.56.30 ####
####  GPS: 40:27N 80 W   ####

   Mine is a most peacable disposition.  My wishes are: a humble cottage
   with a thatched roof, but a good bed, good food, the freshest milk and
   butter, flowers before my window, and a few fine trees before my door;
   and if God wants to make my happiness complete, he will grant me the joy
   of seeing some six or seven of my enemies hanging from those trees.
   Before their death I shall, moved in my heart, forgive them all the wrong
   they did in their lifetime.  One must, it is true, forgive one's
   enemies--but not before they have been hanged.
                        Heine in Freud's "Civilization and its Discontents"

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 08:15:00 -500
From:    "THOMAS CANNON JR." <CANNONT@CEDARNET.CEDARVILLE.EDU>
Subject: Re: U.S. NAVY PHOTOS & SHIP INFO -Reply

Thanks Peter for your input!

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 08:48:34 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <sep@TVSS2.COMMNET.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN:  Research and Interlibrary loan

Dan Ford vented some frustration with;(I'm trying to be diplomatic, Dan)

[some stuff deleted]
>with persistence you can win through.
>
>            - Dan      <dan.ford@unh.edu>

Bill responded with two screens of rebuttal about being more considerate of
Library personnel, which is ALSO understandable.

>#### W.C. (Rusty) Divens ####
>####    Access Services  ####       |__*__|        N93774+@pitt.edu
>#### Falk Library of the ####  =======( )=======   ERCOUPE+@pitt.edu
>####   Health Sciences   ####      |   |   |                   /|\
>####   200 Scaife Hall   #### (Echo Romeo Charlie)           /  |) \
>####   U of Pittsburgh   ####                              /    |)   \
>####   Pgh, PA  15261    ####  wcd@icarus.lis.pitt.edu   /_____ |)    )
>####  FAX: 412-648-9020  ####  DIVENS@shrsys.hslc.org    ---~~~~~~~----
>####  VOX: 412-648-1013  ####                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>#### ARIEL:136.142.56.30 ####
>####  GPS: 40:27N 80 W   ####
>
>   Mine is a most peacable disposition.  My wishes are: a humble cottage
>   with a thatched roof, but a good bed, good food, the freshest milk and
>   butter, flowers before my window, and a few fine trees before my door;
>   and if God wants to make my happiness complete, he will grant me the joy
>   of seeing some six or seven of my enemies hanging from those trees.
>   Before their death I shall, moved in my heart, forgive them all the wrong
>   they did in their lifetime.  One must, it is true, forgive one's
>   enemies--but not before they have been hanged.
>                        Heine in Freud's "Civilization and its Discontents"
>

All this from a guy with a 25 line SIG file???

                                                                ;-)Steve
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - sep@trctc.commnet.edu |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 08:03:53 CDT
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: PREDUZECE Marling on Kar98(k)

I looked in my reference, "Backbone of the Wehrmacht" by Richard Law,
which is an incredible source of information and could not find anything
regarding the markings.

I checked with a friend of my roomate who own a PREDUZCE mauser.  He
said that Preduzce is actually an armory in Yugoslavia, and that older
captured Mausers were reconditioned there before being reissued to
troops.  It would be much like a US weapon being sent back to
Springfield Armory, or a Kar98(k) being sent back to Erma for
reconditioning.  My friend also asked if it was an early production
Mauser since he though most of the ones were.  His is a 1937 German
production, and then a 44 Preduzce reconditioning.  Unfortunately, he
could not remember where he hear the information, although I suspect it
is from National Rifleman, or some publication like that.

I hope this helps---TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 09:28:16 -0400
From:    Martha Wheless <lingua@CCPO.ODU.EDU>
Subject: MEDIA: "D-Day + 50 . . .Normandy"

Hello all,
I'm not sure if this has already been mentioned, but there is a new
video out, titled "D-Day + 50 . . . Normandy".  The reviewer from
our local paper says that this documentary "does a neat job of
tying past to present"  and basically showing why D-Day is so
important.  The film uses a lot of archival footage and minimal
narration.  The film is 106 minutes long.

You can order D-Day + 50 by calling 1-800-868-1188.  It's
$35 + 4 shipping and handling.  you can get a reprint of
Michelin's 1947 Battle of Normandy map for $3 more.

Hope this is of interest.
Martha Wheless
lingua@ccpo.odu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 09:15:55 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: WEAPONS/Mauser 98

>
> I have the book _Backbone of the Wehrmacht", which is the everything you
> ever wanted to know about the kar98(k).  I'll look it up.  Also, German
> troops did not have to put shells in one at a time--ammo came issued on
> stripper clips which were stuch in the back slot of the opened bolt and
> the rounds were slid into the magazine very quickly.  I've done this
> many a time under "reenacting fire" and it works pretty well, but not as
> well as an interchangeable magazine by any means.  TAS

Of course at the same time you're not schlepping large box magazines all
over the place either.  Many of the early modern semi-auto rifles, such as
the M14 and FN-FAL allowed you to reload from stripper clips, with the box
magazine in place.

People who shoot highpower rifle with bolt guns use stripper clips to load.
It's highly effective if you learn the technique.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 09:21:21 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: WEAPONS/Mauser 98

>
> I just received an early Father's Day gift from my two sons; a model 98
> Mauser, and the gun dealer they got it from says it's an authentic WWII
> piece.  Here's his story- the rifle comes from Yugoslavia, where it was
> captured/obtained from the Germans in 1944.  To the rear of the sight, on
> the barrel, there is the imprint of a crest with a red star, and below
> that the imprint PREDUZECE 44.  The dealer said the Yugoslavs (Tito?)
> marked their captured arms this way, and this shows it is an actual WWII
> piece.  It also has F4800 and 4800 stamped on both the barrel and stock
> in various places.

I used to have one.  The Yugoslavs did EXCELLENT refurb. work.

> Can anybody knowledgeable in this area comment?  I'd like to be sure this
> is an authentic WWII Mauser.

Is the bolt handle bent down?

Is there a roughly rectangular cutout in the stock for the bolt handle?

If so, it's almost certainly a reworked German gun.

When I bought mine at the Pennsylvania Gun Collectors' Assoc. gunshow, in
Monroeville (since moved), they were selling them out of a big ordnance chest.
You could pick the configuration of stock and furniture you wanted!

> BTW, it is very accurate and a lot of fun to shoot, but with 8mm ammo at
> 70 cents a shell, I won't be firing it a whole lot.
>
Learn to reload.  It's the only way.  Mine had an EXQUISITE trigger pull,
better than most commercial rifles.  I shot it quite a bit.

> Actually handling a Mauser for the first time, I also was struck by how
> long it takes to load five (only!) bullets one by one, as opposed to a
> Garand or Carbine clip.  The same with firing; working the bolt action
> and re-acquiring the target took some time, although I guess with
> practice that would come easier.
>
I shot mine in a match once, and forgot my stripper clips.  You'd be surprised
how fast you can reload without them.  Of course I didn't hit crap.... :)

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 17:39:00 +0400
From:    efenster@GLAS.APC.ORG
Subject: Greetings from Moscow

>From efenster Thu Jun  2 17:38:13 1994
Return-Path: <efenster>
Received: by glas.apc.org (Smail3.1.28.1 #7)
        id m0q9CyG-000702N; Thu, 2 Jun 94 17:38 +0400
Message-Id: <m0q9CyG-000702N@glas.apc.org>
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 94 17:38 +0400
From: efenster ( )
To: efenster
Subject: )Greetings from Moscow
Status: R

Greetings from Moscow!

  We arrived 12 days ago on a one month study trip exploring the
political and economic situation in Russia and have been submerged
in this puzzle day and night.
  There are 11 in the group, and last evening they were wondering
why these trips aren't greatly oversubscribed instead of being
cancelled for lack of interest. This discussion occurred after a full
day which included a lecture on the Russian work ethic and a meeting
with six graduate students from Siberia and elsewhere who are
involved in unemployment and other social issues.

  There is one more trip possible, from 28 Jul-23 Aug. I have mentioned
it before, but there are not enough participants and it will be
cancelled unless people make commitments over the next week.
  I recently learned that a major statewide American university system
with a long history of sending groups to study Russia turned up only
four people this year, and even they later withdrew.  To me, this lack
of interest is dangerous. It presumes that one can be indifferent to
what goes on in Russia at a time when the reality is greater instability
(and thus danger) than during the Cold War and when the world's whole
geopolitical balance is changing.

  I'll reproduce our current daily schedule below so you can have an
idea of what will take place in July-August. You can request practical
details, but I can only find time to get on Email occasionally so an
immediate response is necessary. Reply to: efenster@glas.apc.org
not to the list!

Eric Fenster
------------

Moscow study trip schedule

May

21   Arrival, accommodation

22   City tour, Kremlin churches
     How to use mass transit demonstration

23   Opening of course, discussion of program
     Lecture: Problems of CIS and regional relationships (Pelitsin,
     Inst. of Int'l Relations)
     Video documentaries

24   Lecture: Political pluralism in Russia today (Matveev, Gorbachev Institute)
     Meeting with principal and students of secondary school

25   Lecture: The social-economic crisis and the programs of the various
     political forces (Buzgalin, Moscow State Univ.)
     Video documentaries
     Ballet

26   Lecture: The civilizational destiny of Russia (Erasov, Oriental Institute)
     Video documentaries
     Ballet (self-organized)

27   Lecture: Problems of Russian history in the 20th century (Zasorin,
     Moscow Pedagogical Univ)
     Discussion with directors of social security programs (attending
     conference in Moscow)

28   Izmailovsky Park
     Group discussion
     Circus

29   Central House of Artists
     Boat ride

30   Lecture: Russia's new constitutional system (Baglai, Academy of Labor)
     Field visit to children's books publishing company
     Folk dancing concert

31   Lecture: Russia and relations with the East and Islamic countries
     (Erasov)
     Group discussion

June

01   Lecture: Labor ethics in Russia (Lapitsky)
     Video documentaries
     Meeting with students of Academy of Labor

02   Lecture: Trade unions in Russia, present and future (Milovidov,
     Academy of Labor)
     Visit to Novodevichy convent

03   Participation in international conference on present and future
     situation of democratic socialism

04   Continuation of conference
     Option of visit to WW2 memorial

05   Visit to monastery and churches in Sergeev-Posad

06   Lecture: Development of parliamentarianism in modern Russia (Zasorin)
     Visit to farm

07   All-day visit to agricultural machinery factory: tour,
     discussion with production director and workers, factory museum,
     meeting with editor of factory newspaper

08   Discussion: The Russian economy,present and future (Voeykov)
     Group discussion

09   Problems of transition to market economy (Voeykov)
     Visit to Pushkin Museum

10-  Visit to Vladimir, Suzdal, Gus-Khrustalny
12

13   Discussion: National harmony or social struggle (Matveev)
     Discussion: Russia and the ideology of the new age (Kemelbekova)

14   Criminality and the activities of law enforcement agencies (Vorontsov,
     Interior Ministry)
     Reserved for subject at participants' request

15   Discussion at request of participants (Matveev)
     or participation in seminar for French group from Bordeaux
     political science institute (under patronage of mayors of Paris
     and Bordeaux and foreign ministers of Russia and France)
     First day: Constitutional and party situation in Russia

16   Continuation of conference: Economic situation in Russia, views of
     Abalkin, Communists, Gaidar

17   Closing of course
     Optional continuation of French seminar

18   Return to USA

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 09:50:38 -0400
From:    Ron Babuka <wrb1@CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: C-47 and para drops

Last night (6/01) there was a broadcast of "D-Day: A Soldiers Story" (I
think) and there was some footage of a C-47s taking off on what appeared to
be a airborne troop drop.  Underneath the C-47s there seemed to be some
containers.  My question is did the C-47s drop equipment from hard points?
I thought that the standard method of dropping equipment was to kick it out
the door?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka                                         National Warplane Museum
Cornell University                                 Geneseo, New York
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 09:52:57 -0400
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: MEDIA: Disturbing Trend

        With all of the pomp and fanfare commerating the 50th anniversary
of D-Day, many press releases include lines such as, "this marked to
beginning of the liberation of Europe" or "this ensured the downfall of
Germany" and other such soundbites.  Since many people don't know the
details of the war, the context in which these lines should be is lost
on them.  As a result, if they're even aware of the Soviet Union's
contribution to the defeat of Germany, these lines reinforce a bias that
it mustn't have been significant.  While I'm not belittling the heroic
efforts of the many Western Allied troops involved in the liberation of
Western Europe, I do think the media has a duty to mention, even in
passing, that the Soviets had been taking the brunt of the war for nearly
three years.  A British historian on one program said something like,
"Great Britain had been fighting the war alone since 1940.  When the US
entered the war in December 1941, we knew we would win."  Both sentences
are true but the context isn't present allowing one to infer that Great
Britain fought alone from 1940 to December 1941.  I guess my point is that
it really was a team effort to take out Germany and all of the players
should be mentioned when key events are remembered.
--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
He may be nuts, but he's not crazy enough to put Shermans up against Tigers!

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 10:22:16 -0400
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: INF: Regia Marina, Part 7

        At the time of the armistice, "Impero" and "Cavour" were docked
in Trieste.  "Impero" was still under construction and a further 18 months
were needed to complete her.  "Cavour" was still undergoing repairs from
damage inflicted at Taranto, nearly three years before, and would need
another six months before she was completely repaired.  The Germans captured
these ships and suspended all work on them.  Dismantling of the ships
commenced in order to provide materials for the German war effort.  What
remained of the hulls of "Cavour" and "Impero" were sunk in Trieste by
Allied bombers on February 15 and February 20, 1945, respectively.  "Cavour"
was salvaged in 1946 and "Impero" in 1947 and they were scrapped.

        On September 23, 1943, an agreement of cooperation was reached
between the Allied and Italian navies concerning the fate of the Italian
fleet.  This was formulated by Admiral A.B. Cunningham, Chief of Allied
naval forces in the Mediterranean and Admiral Raffaele De Courten, Chief
of the Italian Naval Staff and Minister of the Navy.  The accord called
for the use of nearly all remaining warships, excluding the battleships,
against the Germans.  On October 13, 1943, Italy officially declared war
on Germany, formalizing the state of hostilities which had existed in
actuality since the armistice.  Except for the battleships, the units
returned to ports in Southern Italy and commenced operations.

        "Italia" (formerly "Littorio") and "Veneto" were interned in the
Great Bitter Lake, in the Suez Canal, with greatly reduced crews.  They
remained there, inactive, from October 1943 through February 1947.
"Cesare", "Doria", and "Duilio" remained in Malta with reduced crews
until June 1944 when they were returned to Italy.  "Cesare" remained
inactive in Taranto until the end of the war while the other two were
used on a limited basis, for training, in the waters of Southern Italy.

        The Italian government made vigorous efforts to have "Italia"
and "Veneto" returned to Italy and put back into service.  A proposal
was made to use the ships in the Pacific as carrier escorts.  However,
the Allies would not accede to such suggestions.  Instead the two ships
remained in Egypt, in the middle of the desert, like hostages, symbolizing
a vanquished nation.  They were finally allowed to sail home in February
1947, to face an even more denigrating fate.

        In 1944, the Russians had requested the immediate division of the
surviving Italian fleet, so they could take possession of their share.
While hostilities continued, this was not practical.  To placate their
ally, Great Britain and the US loaned a number of ships to the Soviets,
including the battleship, "Royal Sovereign", and the cruiser, "Milwaukee".
When the war was over, the Soviets again demanded the Italian ships due
them.

        Italy was obliged to sign a peace agreement in Paris on February
10, 1947.  This granted the "Cesare" (and other small units) to the Soviets,
"Veneto" to Britain, and "Italia" to the US.  "Doria" and "Duilio" were
to remain part of a reduced Italian Fleet.

        Separately negotiating with the countries in question, Italy
obtained renunciation of the ceding of the ships to the US and Britain
and a reduction in the number of ships assigned to France, which was
not scheduled to receive any battleships.  However, the ships in question
were to be scrapped.

        The "Cesare" was overhauled and decommissioned.  Given the number
Z-11, and crewed by and sailing under the flag of the Italian Merchant
Marine, the ship was transferred to the Soviet Union, at Valone, Albania,
on February 6, 1949.  The "Cesare" was renamed "Novorossik" in Soviet
service and was used as a training ship.  It is believed that she was
sunk in October, 1955, following the detonation of a mine.

        Despite Italian efforts to procrastinate on scrapping her modern
battleships until the clause in the treaty lapsed, "Veneto" and "Italia"
had their 15-inch guns sheared off and their machinery was destroyed.
These once-potent ships remained in this forlorn state for some years,
until October 1955, when they were scrapped.

        "Doria" and "Duilio" were of limited value due to their age and
design short-comings.  They were used as training ships and alternated
as the flagship of the commander-in-chief of the Italian Naval Squadron.
"Duilio" left active service in 1953 and was laid up at La Spezia.  "Doria"
was based at Taranto and was used for some years as a training and barrack
ship for the local naval school.  "Duilio" was scrapped between 1957-1958
and "Doria" between 1961-1962.  With their demise, the Italian battleship
passed into history.
--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
To a New Yorker like you, a hero is some kind of weird
sandwich, not some nut who takes on three Tigers!

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 09:26:58 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Black Widow Squadrons and CO's

Hello, All Interested Parties!

Here goes with some more info on the CO's of BW squadrons.

              418th NFS

CO's: Major Carroll C. Smith
      Capt. William B. Sellers

      1st P-61 received: early Sep 1944
      1st enemy aircraft destroyed by P-61 crew: 7 Oct 1944
      Squadron total enemy aircraft destroyed by P-61 crew: 18


               419th NFS

CO's: Capt John J. McClusky
      Major Ralph F. Jones
      Capt. Emerson Y. Barker
      Capt. Howard G. Daniel
            Al Lukas
      Major Andrew J. Bing
            Joseph R. Schulmistras
      Capt. Richard O. Stewart
      Lt-Col Norman M. Mahl

      1st P-61 received: 3 May 1944
      1st enemy aircraft destroyed by P-61 crew: 5 Aug 1944
      Squadron total enemy aircraft destroyed by P-61 crew: 5


                    421st NFS

CO's: Major Walter S. Pharr
      Capt. William T. Bradley
            Paul R. Zimmer
      Lt. Dorrie E. Jones
      Capt. Richard D. Klick

      1st P-61 received: 1 Jun 1944
      1st enemy aircraft destroyed by P-61 crew: 7 July 1944
      Squadron total enemy aircraft destroyed by P-61 crew: 13


              422nd NFS

 CO's: Lt-Col Orin B. Johnson

       1st P-61 received: 23 May 1944
       1st enemy aircraft destroyed by P-61 crew: 16 July 1944 (V-1)
                      7 Aug 1944 (manned enemy aircraft)
       Squadron total of enemy aircraft destroyed by
       P-61 crew: 43 manned, 5 V-1s



       Will post more later.

       Hope this has been of interest.

       Terry




Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 10:09:00 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Disturbing Trend

Hello, Joe!

Would like to offer my two cents' worth to this.

>         With all of the pomp and fanfare commerating the 50th anniversary
> of D-Day, many press releases include lines such as, "this marked to
> beginning of the liberation of Europe" or "this ensured the downfall of
> Germany" and other such soundbites.  Since many people don't know the
> details of the war, the context in which these lines should be is lost
> on them.  As a result, if they're even aware of the Soviet Union's
> contribution to the defeat of Germany, these lines reinforce a bias that
> it mustn't have been significant.

    Absolutely correct, and what frustrates me, as I listen to this
reportage of the D-Day landings, two things occur to me. Firstly, the
shortcomings of the media you cite above regarding the Soviet
contribution to the general Allied war efforts. And secondly, you
don't hear anything, or at best, very little, of the other side. You
know it takes two to tango, and to portray only one side of this
issue is to create a bias. It is all very well and so easy to query
and interview vets who were there. All well and good, but the overall
picture is distorted and viewers are left with a the feeling that, 1)
we carried the ball, all our other allies were second rate and their
contributions were negligible; 2) the enemy, although present, was
not really seen, and those seen, were shown surrendering or already
in captivity.

While I'm
not belittling the heroic
> efforts of the many Western Allied troops involved in the liberation of
> Western Europe, I do think the media has a duty to mention, even in
> passing, that the Soviets had been taking the brunt of the war for nearly
> three years.

    Absolutely correct, but will they? I don't think they will. The
war on the Russian Front was another war to most Americans, and since
our boys weren't directly involved in significant numbers, then, for
all practical purposes it didn't exist.



    A British historian on one program said something like,
> "Great Britain had been fighting the war alone since 1940.  When the US
> entered the war in December 1941, we knew we would win."

    I agree with the first but not necessarily with the second. In
1940-1941, the issue was still in doubt. There was no guarantee that
Russia would stay in the war through 1942, and if they had bowed out,
what then? It would have been a very different situation for the
Western Allies, if that had happened.


Both sentences
> are true but the context isn't present allowing one to infer that Great
> Britain fought alone from 1940 to December 1941.  I guess my point is that
> it really was a team effort to take out Germany and all of the players
> should be mentioned when key events are remembered.

    I agree, but the media's reasoning is, space and time. Everything
can't be mentioned or discussed in a 15 minute program or even a 90
minute one for that matter. Their idea is that their program is not a
history lesson, but, yes, I think they are obligated to report the
truth, as objectively and fairly as possible, not just for our
efforts, but also those of our Allies and those of our enemies at
that time.

    Thanks for allowing me my two cents' worth on this. I have been
concerned about this too, and the reporting thus far has been
interesting but biased.

    All the best.

    Terry



Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 10:22:25 EST
From:    "ROBERT MARION, HISTORY DEPT." <RMARION@UCS.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Disturbing Trend

     A hearty "Here! Here!", Joe. To this day, the successor-Soviet media
is filled with controversy over what they perceive to be a calculated Allied
hesitation to mount an invasion of Western Europe.

Bob Marion
Doctoral student
Dept. of History
Indiana University

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 11:26:54 -0400
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: <No subject given>

QUIET DEL WWII-L v-steca@MICROSOFT.COM

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 11:40:58 +0000
From:    David Rising <drising@IO.ORG>
Subject: TRV:D-Day

This may seem a bit simple, but can anyone tell me what the "D" in D-Day
stands for? I was just asked this question by a friend, and cannot
believe that I don't know the answer. Thanks,
David Rising

P.S. I'm still trying to figure out how to re-subscribe to Milhst-l.
Could someone forward me the pertinant info? Thanks in advance.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 08:48:30 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: CNN COVERAGE OF D-DAY

Ahem, yes, President Clinton has already "spoken".
Showing his awessome grasp of military matters, he grandly took complete
credit for America's victory in WW2, with no need of mention of a little
help from a few friends.
Perhaps a brisk jog along Gold, Sword, and Juno could broaden his perspective.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 10:41:39 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: TRV:D-Day

I just asked that of Don Daudelin, here at WIU.

He and I both suspect it means "Debarkation Day," and was used
  for (any) other landings, as well.  It is just that *this* one
  was the most important one, of course.

MILHST-L@UKANVM.BITNET

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 09:13:51 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Greetings from Moscow

"Drazwitzia..."
>From Victoria, British Columbia, Canada.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 09:18:24 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Disturbing Trend

As you so deftly put it, Joe... "... the players should be mentioned...."
Perhaps you should be a speechwriter for President Clinton on D+50.
:-)

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 11:33:54 -0500
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: WANT: Boatswain's Whistle

Any (current?) Navy types out there that know where to (or can) get current
_real_ Boatswain's whistles?  Lots of Army and Navy surplus stores have them,
but they are all cheap replicas.

With the PBY Catalina showing up in less than 3 weeks (and actually may fly
down to meet it this coming weekend), it seems like a total blast of silliness
to have whistles to "pipe aboard" those ever important tour people.  :-)

I'll NEVER get used to an airplane with an anchor...

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 17:32:35 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <smb@NETMGRS.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: CNN COVERAGE OF D-DAY

I share concern at the current coverage of the D Day events, and
the impression given, that it was a straight fight between 2
cojntries.

I am
pleased to announce that US veterans have received (as far as I can make
out) from the media over here, generous and friendly coverage as they
travel vast distances to return to the beaches.

Yesterday, special
tribute was paid to all the intelligence/espionage officers who were
dropped into France days/weeks/months before Overlord took place. These
are yet another band of unsung heroes of that period whose deeds have gone
unnoticed...

All this has got me thinking about how much of my own country's history
is "masked" by the deeds of our allies. I got to thinking how much
I have read/seen on TV re eg the Battle of the Bulge, and yet
one hears absolutely nothing on say, the British/Commonwealth victory
at Imphal Kohima....

yours for the full picture and balanced views...

steve baldwin
smb@netmgrs.co.uk

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 12:51:04 -0400
From:    Mike Bechthold <mbechtho@MACH1.WLU.CA>
Subject: Re: TRV:D-Day

David,

I have been asked the same question by groups of high school students
over the last few days.  The simple answer is that the "D" doesn't stand
for anything.  The Code Names Dictionary states that "D Day" is a
"General military term, with specific applications, for day on which
hostilities, an operation, or an exercise commences, or is planned to
commence."  It states the term originated during the First World War.

Hope this helps

Mike Bechthold
Wilfrid Laurier University
Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
mbechtho@mach1.wlu.ca

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 12:58:37 -0400
From:    Ron Babuka <wrb1@CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: Re: TRV:D-Day

I was listening to a D-DAY special report on NPR and they stated that "D"
stood for .... "DAY"  and also that H as in "H+1 hour" stood for ....
"HOUR"

Oh well I can't confirm their source but that what I hear - and NPR could
never be wrong ;)



>This may seem a bit simple, but can anyone tell me what the "D" in D-Day
>stands for? I was just asked this question by a friend, and cannot
>believe that I don't know the answer. Thanks,
>David Rising
>
>P.S. I'm still trying to figure out how to re-subscribe to Milhst-l.
>Could someone forward me the pertinant info? Thanks in advance.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka                                         National Warplane Museum
Cornell University                                 Geneseo, New York
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 13:00:45 -0400
From:    Norrin M Ripsman <nripsman@SAS.UPENN.EDU>
Subject: Re: TRV:D-Day

In French it is referred to as "la debarquement".  I assume in English it
must stand for Debarkment, Debarkation or Disembarkment.

Norrin M. Ripsman

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 12:59:35 -0400
From:    "Mr. Scott Hannon" <hannon@UMBC.EDU>
Subject: Re: TRV:D-Day

re: What's the D in D-Day?, Lou writes:
>...suspect it means "Debarkation Day"

No. I heard on the radio this morning it means "Day", the Center for
Military History having supplied the answer. Thus "D-Day" is "Day Day".
While it sounds silly, the purpose is to allow shorthand notations
such as "D+3" to mean the 3rd day after D-Day, etc. In a similar way,
"H-Hour" means "Hour Hour".

Scott.
Scott Hannon, Thu Jun 2 1994 (hannon@umbc.edu)

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 13:55:50 -0400
From:    "Harold J. Cohen." <COHEN@ITHACA.BITNET>
Subject: Italian Marines

                        First, I would like to thank Joe Barone for his
fascinating series of messages on the Regia Marina. On a related subject,
can either Joe or anyone else provide information on Italian Marines
during the Second World War? Thanks in advance.

                                       Harold Cohen
                                       Ithaca College

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 13:14:47 CDT
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re[2]: TRV:D-Day

I gotta agree with Scott Harmon on this one---D-Day is just
that---D-Day--or day day.  There are many other terms that are used like
that---H-Hour.  There are others that correlate dirctly--like C-Day,
which means commencement day--which is used in the transportation
business in the military to determine when movement starts and schedule
off of a C-day schedule.  There is also G-Day, which is the day ground
forces begin operations.  I also heard the term D-Day thrown around
during the Somlaia operation prior to the landing, with items in the
plan referring to D+1, D+5, etc.  The are used to set up a plan that is
immaterial to calender dates so if the operation is set off sooner, or
put off, you don;t have to replan the entire operation's timing.  TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 14:44:50 -0400
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Disturbing Trend

> Perhaps you should be a speechwriter for President Clinton on D+50.

Shouldn't that really be D+18,262?  :-)

        Joe

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 15:00:14 EDT
From:    Doug McCabe <mccabe@OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Insignia

                   Ohio University Electronic Communication


   Date:  02-Jun-1994 02:55pm EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject:  Insignia


    A uniform insignia patch worn on the left arm by Cornelius Ryan was
    round and had the capital letter "A" in blue in the center.  I've been
    asked by his daughter what the "A" means.  Anyone know?  [I think it's
    for a reporter who is doing a story on Ryan and his daughter for the
    local Rochester, NY paper.]

    Doug
    mccabe@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu



Received:  02-Jun-1994 03:00pm

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 15:36:13 -0400
From:    "dan.ford" <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>
Subject: Re: TRV:D-Day

D is the Day, H is the Hour, and has been noted the idea was to gain the
ability to plan complicated scenarios around a time that had yet to be
decided upon.

But you know, I've always suspected that we got the inspiration from the
Germans, who referred to a forthcoming and momentous event as *Der Tag*.
If so, then D-Day simply means The Day. Wouldn't that be a symmetrical
and fitting beginning to the ending of the occupation of France and the
Low Countries?

            - Dan      <dan.ford@unh.edu>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 12:38:00 -0700
From:    Patrick Charles <pchuck@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: TRV:D-Day

        On 6/2's Morning Edition on National Public Radio, not really the
bastion of military history or knowledge, they had a piece about what the "D" in
 D-Day stands
for.  They claimed that it the D stood for "Day".  I know this sounds
strange, they certainly pointed that out, but that is what THEY said it
stood for.  They also claimed the the "H" in H-Hour stood for "Hour".  I
don't know, that is just what I heard on the radio.

        Patrick Charles
        University of Washington

On Thu, 2 Jun 1994, David Rising wrote:

> This may seem a bit simple, but can anyone tell me what the "D" in D-Day
> stands for? I was just asked this question by a friend, and cannot
> believe that I don't know the answer. Thanks,
> David Rising
>
> P.S. I'm still trying to figure out how to re-subscribe to Milhst-l.
> Could someone forward me the pertinant info? Thanks in advance.
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 13:33:01 -0700
From:    Ed Kettler <deradler@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: U.S. NAVY PHOTOS & SHIP INFO

The following is from Chronology of the War at Sea 1939-1945, J. Rohwer:

5-6 Nov 1941:  Convoy HX.158 escorted by US TU.4.1.8 witht the destroyers
Buck, Ludlow, Swanson, McCormick and Greer supported by Woolsey and Wilkes.

2 Dec 1941:  ON.37 (46 ships) escorted by EG.8, escort group relieved by
US TU.4.1.8 (includes Swanson).

10 Dec 15 Jan 1942:  US TU.4.1.8 escorts HX.165 and ON.51. Swanson is
part of TU.4.1.8

14-19 Mar 1942 Swanson and Nicholson escort two transports with 5000 British
and Canadian troops.  On 19 Mar, these transports are turned over to
British escorts and two other transports are escorted westward to Halifax.

23 Oct - 7 Nov 1942:  TG.34.9/Centre Attack Group (Capt Emmet) with
cruisers Augusta and Brooklyn, destroyers Wilkes, Swanson, Ludlow and
Murphy, 112 transports, three freighters and escorts participate in Torch
landings in North Africa.

16 Nov 1942:  U-173 is sunk by destroyers Woolsey, Swanson and Quick

Late Nove 1942:  Swanson part of returning convoy to Norfolk.

25 Jan 1943:  Convoy UGF.4 (18 transports escorted by TF.34:  Texas,
Buck, Wilkes, Swanson, Ludlow, Roe, Woolsey, Edison, Bristol and Butler)
arrives off Gibraltar, relieved by British escort group.


21 April 1943:  U129 sinks three ships of 26950t but is driven off from
an NG convoy by Swanson.

June July 1943:  Swanson participated in convoy escort duties in
preparation for Husky landings on Sicily.  Swanson part of support group
for landing of US 3rd Inf Div  and parts of 2nd Armored Div off Licata.

September 1943:  Swanson part of escort of US-Gibraltar convoys GUS.13

October 1943:  UGS.18, escorted by TF.63 with USCG cutters Bibb and
Ingham, destroyers Wilkes, Swanson and Roe, and 4 DEs.

5 Mar 1944:  1410 troops land as 3rd wave on Los Negros Island, escorted
by TG.76.1 consisting of Flusser, Drayton, Smith, Wilkes, Swanson,
Nicholson, Stevenson, Thorn, RAN Arunta, APDs Humphreys, Brooks and Sands.

22-28 April 1944:  US landings at Aitape, escorted by Hobby, Nicholson,
wilkes, Grayson, Gillespie, Kalk and Swanson.

6-17 October 1944:  TF.38 operations off Formosa and Luzon.  TG.38.4
(REar Adm Davison) comprises carriers Franklin, Enterprise, San jacinto
and Bellau Wood, cruisers New Orleans and Biloxi, destroyers Maury,
Gridley, Helm, McCall, Mugford, Bagley, Patterson, Ralph Talbot, Wilkes,
Nichiolson and Swanson.

--
 Ed
Kettler                                       deradler@netcom.com


On Thu, 2 Jun 1994, Peter de Lange wrote:

> > I am doing some research for my dad, who served on the U.S.S. Swanson
> > (DD443) during WWII in the Pacific Theater.  I wanted to get
>
> In the USN-chronology I found the next about the USS DD-443 Swanson
> 11/16/42 Mon : U-173 sunk by destroyers Woolsey, Swanson and Quick
>                off Casablanca, Marocco
>  7/10/43 Sat : Sicily landings, Swanson damaged by collisson.
> Hopes this helps and give your father my greetings.
> Peter de Lange
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 13:44:11 -0700
From:    Ed Kettler <deradler@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: C-47 and para drops

Many of the C-47 series planes were equipped to drop cargo containers
from hardpoints on the belly during the drop of troops.  These containers
were about 1' in diameter and 4-5' long.  An example can be seen in
'A Bridge Too Far" where the para is shot retrieving one filled with berets.

--

Ed Kettler                                       deradler@netcom.com


On Thu, 2 Jun 1994, Ron Babuka wrote:

> Last night (6/01) there was a broadcast of "D-Day: A Soldiers Story" (I
> think) and there was some footage of a C-47s taking off on what appeared to
> be a airborne troop drop.  Underneath the C-47s there seemed to be some
> containers.  My question is did the C-47s drop equipment from hard points?
> I thought that the standard method of dropping equipment was to kick it out
> the door?
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ron Babuka                                         National Warplane Museum
> Cornell University                                 Geneseo, New York
> CIT - Information Resources
> Ithaca, New York 14850
> (607) 254-6492
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 16:00:46 CDT
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Insignia

A red and blue patch with a large White A in the middle is the Third
Army patch.  The A represents army, while the ring of blue or red
represents O for occupation--hence Army of Occupation from WWI days.
That's the story I've always heard.  Third Army was Patton's command in
WWII, and it was also Yeosock's command and Army Echelon's Above Corps
level for Operation Desert Storm.

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 17:12:42 -0400
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: Italian Marines

Harold J. Cohen <COHEN%ITHACA.BITNET@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> writes:
> ... On a related subject,
> can either Joe or anyone else provide information on Italian Marines
> during the Second World War? Thanks in advance.

        The Jan 1993 issue of Command magazine has a write-up of the
planned invasion of Malta.  I haven't gotten around to reading it yet
(I only recently bought the issue through their back issue service),
but they have a chart of the forces involved in the invasion.

        Three hundred "Nuotatori" (swimmers) of the San Marco Marines,
in small groups (30 was the usual number) were to take part in the
invasion.  These swimmers were some of the 500 Special Naval Force
swimmers trained by Admiral Tur.  They were trained for ocean swimming
and beach assault.

        Another two battalions (totalling about 2000 men) of the San
Marco Marines were also going to participate.  Each battalion had four
infantry companies, one headquarters company, one 81mm mortal company,
and one 47/32mm anti-tank company.

        Two other infantry divisions (Friuli and Livorno) were earmarked
as well as 1900 men of three Blackshirt battalions.  Thirty L-3 light
tanks and 19 47mm Semovente (self-propelled) guns were to accompany to
infantry divisions.

        That's about it from me.  Can anyone else add to this?
--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
How can you be the communications officer when you aren't communicatin'?
You're more like a military censor!

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 16:24:27 -0700
From:    John Holtz <holtz@EAGLE.SANGAMON.EDU>
Subject: Re: TRV:D-Day

The "D" in D-Day stands for "Day."  This info is straight from the
Center for Military History, Carlisle Barracks.  It's a mnemonic and
grammatical device which simplifies references to the moment
itself...now you can say things like "D minus one" or "D plus 4" (H, by
the way, stands for "Hour" in H-hour).

Cheers.

jwh

--
John W. Holtz, Asst. Professor       INTERNET: holtz@eagle.sangamon.edu
Sangamon State University Library       PHONE: (217) 786-6633
Springfield, IL  62794-9243

  > Opinions subject to change upon reflection or dissipation <

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 19:15:28 EDT
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <hb9388@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: C-47 and para drops

Ron,

Reference your question about containers under C-47 aircraft:

Yes, the US Army did drop equipment from hard points under the C-47.
This was equipment that was too big to get out the door, mostly like
the 75mm pack howitzer (broken into its constutuent parts).  Things that
were kicked out the door were things like ammo, rations, and mortars all
set up as a door bundle.

These days, over large equipment is dropped by using a heavy drop parachute
and the equipment goes off the back ramp of a C-141 or C-130.

Hope this helps,

Barry

>Last night (6/01) there was a broadcast of "D-Day: A Soldiers Story" (I
>think) and there was some footage of a C-47s taking off on what appeared to
>be a airborne troop drop.  Underneath the C-47s there seemed to be some
>containers.  My question is did the C-47s drop equipment from hard points?
>I thought that the standard method of dropping equipment was to kick it out
>the door?
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Ron Babuka                                         National Warplane Museum
>Cornell University                                 Geneseo, New York
>CIT - Information Resources
>Ithaca, New York 14850
>(607) 254-6492
>

Barrett F. Lowe               RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, West Point  (e-mail:  hb9388%usma6@trotter.usma.edu)

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 16:16:35 -0700
From:    "Leo J. Sifflet M.D." <leo1932@SVPAL.ORG>
Subject: subscription

Please enter my name on your mailing list


thank you   leo1932@svpal.org

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 16:24:46 -0700
From:    Jim Benn <jrb@AGAVIION.AGFX.COM>
Subject: Re: WEAPONS/Mauser 98

Thanks to Tim and Christopher and others for info on the Mauser.  As some
asked, yest it does have a turned down bolt and a small depression in the
stock under the bolt, which seems further proof it is an authentic German
WWII rifle.

And I will take the good advice about reloading my own ammo; this weapon
is too much fun to fire to not have a good supply of ammo on hand.

Thanks again...



 *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*> Jim Benn  [jrb@agaviion.agfx.com] <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=*
 |-=[        Auto-Graphics, Inc.       ]=[      /~~)       /~~)           ]=-|
 |-=[        8 West Main Street        ]=[     (__(_UTO - (__/RAPHICS     ]=-|
 |-=[        Niantic, CT  06357        ]=[              .___/             ]=-|
 *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*>  PHONE: 800-733-6939 = FAX: 203-691-0183  <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=*

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 19:26:29 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: Insignia

>    From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
>           MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715
>
> Subject:  Insignia
>
>
>     A uniform insignia patch worn on the left arm by Cornelius Ryan was
>     round and had the capital letter "A" in blue in the center.  I've been
>     asked by his daughter what the "A" means.  Anyone know?  [I think it's
>     for a reporter who is doing a story on Ryan and his daughter for the
>     local Rochester, NY paper.]

I believe it stands for "army" as in 1st Army, 5th Army, etc.....

There are a number of "army" patches with the "A" included in the design.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 20:37:05 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Insignia

Hello, Doug!

Your insignia sounds as though it is a "Third" Army patch? "A" would
certainly stand for "Army".

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 20:41:26 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: TRV:D-Day

Hello, Dan!

If I understand you correctly, I think you are trying to give some
idea as to what D in the expression D-Day stands for.

It stands for the French: Debarquement or debarcation. It seems that
French, being an internationally-recognized language, it was
necessary to use abbreviations which corresponded to the French idea.
In this case, it neatly coincided with the English D.


> But you know, I've always suspected that we got the inspiration from the
> Germans, who referred to a forthcoming and momentous event as *Der Tag*.
> If so, then D-Day simply means The Day. Wouldn't that be a symmetrical
> and fitting beginning to the ending of the occupation of France and the
> Low Countries?

    Yes, but, alas, not in the reality of it.

    Thanks.

    Terry


Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 20:42:52 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: TRV:D-Day

Hello, David!

Please see my post to Dan Ford. I have explained it there. If it was

not received, please advise. I will re-post it to you.


> This may seem a bit simple, but can anyone tell me what the "D" in D-Day
> stands for? I was just asked this question by a friend, and cannot
> believe that I don't know the answer. Thanks,
> David Rising
>
> P.S. I'm still trying to figure out how to re-subscribe to Milhst-l.
> Could someone forward me the pertinant info? Thanks in advance.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 20:55:27 CDT
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Chicago D-Day Reenactment

Well--I'm in the final stages of packing here at D-2 for the Chicago
D-Day Reenactment.  It is supposed to be covered live on WGN channel 9,
although I haven;t seen a cable guide yet to see if this is true.

I decided to go as a General Staff Captain, for as of 25 May that is my
real rank and branch in the USAR.  Huuurah.  Look for me---I'll have a
set of Captain's Bars painted on the front of my helmet, general staff
insignia on the left collar, and carrying an M-1 Garand.  I have no idea
which craft I will be on.

Well--got more planning to do before leaving the point of embarcation
here at D-1, so I gotta run.  I'll give a full rundown here soon.

Tim A. Scherrer CPT, GS, USAR

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 21:04:38 CDT
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re[2]: Insignia

Speaking of the Third Army patch---these yahoos I used to reenact when I
was 18 tryed to convince the world that their unit was authorized two
patches---they reenacted 6th Cavalry Group, which was Patton's Household
Cavalry.  They claimed the unit wore a left shoulder 6th Cav patch, and
a right shoulder 3rd Army patch.  The 6th Cav patch was the black and
silver/bronze colored design (which I believe is correct).  However the
left shoulder perplexes me.  The right shoulder patch is the combat
patch, but why wouldn;t they also wear a right shoulder 6th Cav patch.
The only answer I can come up with is that maybe 6th Cav Group was too
small to be authorized to wear a combat patch, so the next higher
headquarters patch, 3rd Army was worn.  Tha makes sense to me---this two
patch is the correct way for all members of the unit, whether they are
combat vet's or not.  I believe that only the left shoulder was
authorized as a unit patch, and the right shoulder was the higher HQ
combat patch since theirs wasn;t authorized.  Is this correct?

Sometimes reeanactors hear something from one or two vets, or see it in
pictures and believe that is correct, and I am looking for a sound
regulation reason to correct this mistake.  All the guys in the unit
areprimarily USN vet's, which explains why they got it stuck in their
head to begin with, because anyone USA would automatically know
something was rotten in Luxenbourg.

Anybody got any ideas?

Tim

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 23:11:16 -0400
From:    "Arthur D. Venzin" <VENZIN@CALVIN.CC.DUQ.EDU>
Subject: Battle of Bulge

Hi All.  Looking for all sorts of info.  Hope someone can help.

1.  Looking for a Belgium group that studies the Battle of the Bulge.
    It does exisit because one of the men from the 55th AIB met with a
    gentleman in Belgium in '92.  Need to find this group because I'm going
    back in Oct. '94.

2.  Looking for info on Co "B' 301st Sig. Opn (?) Bat (?).  My Uncle was part of this unit and was to have landed in Normandy 10 Days prior to Invasion???
    They also liberated a concentration camp and received a Presidential
    citation.

3.  Looking for 28th Div 110th Inf. and their involment in the Bulge and
    Hurtegen Forest.

4.  Looking for German historians and their knowledge of 26th Inf. Div. and
    their activity in the Kronach county (?) area of Germany.

Thanks to all in advance.  I know it's a big request hope you can help.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 2 Jun 1994 22:56:39 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: ARC: Utah Beach to Cherbourg at byrd.

The AMERICAN FORCES IN ACTION SERIES book, "Utah Beach to Cherbourg"

has been added to the D-Day directory at byrd.mu.wvnet.edu, path
/pub/history/military/wwii/D-Day. The orignal was 200 pages+, but I'm
not ready to add the photos and maps yet, so the total file is just
under 500K.

Several other files, and two complete books (less graphics) are available
in the D-Day directory.

Bryd is accessible via FTP, and is mirrored by sunsite.unc.ed (which is
reachable by WWW and gopher, but ask them if you need to know how.)

Larry J

JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Co-Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU (Historical docs)
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 1 Jun 1994 to 2 Jun 1994
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 25 messages totalling 1196 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. TRV:D-Day (2)
  2. Greetings from Moscow (2)
  3. INF: 50 Years Ago Today - 03-JUN-1944
  4. U.S. NAVY PHOTOS & SHIP INFO -Reply (2)
  5. INF: USN Chronology 06-03-94
  6. [INF] USAAF 3-6 JUN 44
  7. INF: Axis troop distribution, 6 June, 1944
  8. MEDIA: Combat! marathon reminder (2)
  9. Any B-17s Over Omaha Beach?
 10. Insignia (4)
 11. MEDIA/D-Day
 12. A question of patches
 13. TRV: John Ausland.
 14. D for Day
 15. USN Paint Equivalents
 16. D-Day Events
 17. D-Day Facts
 18. Greetings from M...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Jun 1994 09:30:17 CET
From:    "LTC Donnell, Doug" <4atf@PIRMASENS-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Re: TRV:D-Day

Hi David and All,

Mike Bechtold hit the nail on the head as far as the meaning of D-Day
is concerned.  The D doesn't stand for anything.  D-Day is simply the
day an operation kicks off.  The terminology is still in use.

BTW, the French call it "Jour-J" (and "Le debarquement" (the disembarkment))

                              Doug

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Jun 1994 02:54:18 -0500
From:    GEARHEART DRAKE ERICK <gearhart@FALCON.CC.UKANS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Greetings from Moscow

  I think the reason most students or those otherwise academically
inclined hesitate to go on trips to the CIS right now is either the
precarious situation over there or stories of others who have made the
trip.  About 7 friends of mine here from KU went to St. Petersburg 2 years
ago and after hearing how rough it was, I don't think I'd go now.  The
food was inedible unless you bought it fresh, you had to drink bottled
water and the problems with the farsovshiki (mafia) were pretty bad.  Two
of my female friends were mobbed by a group of soldiers, they all had to
wash their clothes in dirty water.  It's a wonder people can survive in
such third world conditions.

  I would love to take such a trip but I don't think most students would
like to pay high price for such trouble.  But I would encourage you to
keep putting the word out though.  Best of luck.

                                        Drake E. Gearheart
                                        History
                                        University of Kansas

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Jun 1994 07:31:27 -0500
From:    John Davis <JBDML@OSBM6.OSBM.STATE.NC.US>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago Today - 03-JUN-1944

On 03-JUN-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Eastern Front - The Germans make little progress against fierce Russian
     resistance on the Rumanian front.

Italian Front - The Allied advance continues along the entire front. Albano,
     Lanuvia and Frascati are all captured by Allied forces. Units of the
     American 3rd Division and the French Expeditionary Corps advance along
     Highway 6. The Canadian I Corps reaches Anagni. Kesselring is given
     authorization by Hitler to evacuate Rome. Fighting south and southeast of
     Rome must be kept up as long as possible to give the German troops in
     Rome time to be evacuated. Respecting the agreement that Rome was an
     "open city" the German troops leaving the city do not blow up the bridges
     over the river Tiber nor any other structures. In exchange, the partisans
     do not harass the retiring troops.

New Guinea - The U.S. 186th Infantry continues its movement west on Biak. The
     162nd Infantry which is also moving west is halted by the Japanese in the
     Ibdi area.

Burma/China - The Chinese and American forces launch an assault on the
     Japanese positions, but are driven back with heavy losses (especially to
     the American forces).

Naval Dispatches
----------------
U.S. destroyer REID (DD-369) damaged by dive bomber in the western New Guinea
     area.

The Homefront
-------------
Peace Role Sought for Congress - A resolution is introduced in the House
     calling for a joint Senate-House committee to participate in future peace
     conferences.

155 Cargo Ships in May - The Maritime Commission reports the delivery of 155
     new cargo ships in May, raising the year's total to 719 vessels. This
     figure for May includes 16 new Victory ships.

Field Buys Station WSAI - Radio station WSAI in Cincinnati has been purchased
     by Marshall Field.

Bounding Home Wins Belmont Stakes - Bounding Home won the $72,570 Belmont
     Stakes by half a length from favored Pensive.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  jbd@osbm.state.nc.us
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Jun 1994 08:12:00 -500
From:    "THOMAS CANNON JR." <CANNONT@CEDARNET.CEDARVILLE.EDU>
Subject: Re: U.S. NAVY PHOTOS & SHIP INFO -Reply

Thanks Ed for your kindness and answering my inquiry!  Thanks for
your time and effort in sending me this info.  I will give it to my
dad, and he will greatly appreciate it!

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Jun 1994 05:38:32 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@CCLINK.LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 06-03-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
06/03 Sat.  United States naval vessel damaged:
             Destroyer REID (DD-369), by dive bomber, western
              New Guinea area,
              01 d. 13' S., 136 d. 13' E.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Jun 1994 09:03:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 3-6 JUN 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
3 TO 6 JUNE 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  C-53, Douglas Skytrooper
  F-6, North American Mustang
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

SATURDAY, 3 JUNE 1944

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 2 B-25s and 2 P-38s fly guardship cover; 2
other B-25s fly a negative shipping search.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 15 B-25s pound the Imphal, India-
Tiddim road while a few P-40s hit the Mogaung area; the B-25 ammunition lift
to the Imphal area continues.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, P-40s support ground forces at
Watien and Tatangtzu, destroy 2 barges and damage others in the Gulf of
Tonkin, and strafe 40 barges carrying horses and troops in the Tungting Lake
area N of Nanhsien; B-25s, P-40s, and P-51s pound the Pingkiang area.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): In Operation COVER, two missions,
both designated Mission 388, are flown. In the first, 219 of 238 B-17s and
120 of 124 B-24s attack coastal defenses in the Pas de Calais, France area,
bombing a total of 22 targets; 21 B-17s and 24 B-24s are damaged; no
casualties. Escort is provided by 91 P-38s and 129 P-47s. In the second raid,
97 of 102 B-17s and 98 of 104 B-24s hit 16 of the same targets hit in the
morning; 2 B-17s are damaged. Escort is provided by 102 P-38s, 34 P-47s and
83 P-51s; 1 P-51 is lost and 1 P-38 is damaged; 1 airman is MIA.
  During the night, 23 B-24s participate in CARPETBAGGER operations in
France.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 250+ B-26s and A-20s bomb airfields,
highway bridges, and coastal defense batteries in N France; 400+ P-38s and
P-47s dive-bomb targets in NW Europe.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Bad weather drastically
curtails operations. In Yugoslavia, 36 B-24s bomb the waterfront area of
Omis and 38 hit the port area and W part of Split. Fighters sent to strafe
targets of opportunity in the target areas abandon the mission because of low
clouds over the targets.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium bombers pound
bridges in C Italy, further damaging the enemy's communications system;
fighter-bombers continue close support of embattled ground forces immediately
S of Rome and attack several bridges N of the city to hinder a possible
withdrawal of enemy forces; light bombers attack ammunition and fuel dumps.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-24s staging through Eniwetok
Atoll, strike Truk Atoll in a pre-dawn raid; B-25s from Engebi Island,
Eniwetok Atoll, bomb Nauru Island. HQ 15th Fighter Group moves from Wheeler
Field to Bellows Field, Oahu, Territory of Hawaii.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): All scheduled strikes on
the Rabaul area of New Britain Island are cancelled due to weather conditions.
20+ P-39s, turned back from the Rabaul area, hit the Tsundawan-Porton road,
vehicles in the Komai area, and AA position at Kara on Bougainville Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, B-25s, A-20s
and B-24s hit Timoeka Airfield and nearby villages, shipping off Manokwari,
Seroei Village on Japen Island, positions N of Mokmer, and strafe Mokmer,
Sorido and Kamiri Airfields; P-38s and P-47s battle fighters over Biak Island
and over the Babo area; P-47s and P-40s hit Sawar Airfield, supplies and fuel
dumps in the Sarmi and Orai River areas, and hideouts and occupied areas
along the coast; B-24s and fighter-bombers maintain consistent pounding of
numerous targets in the Wewak-Hansa Bay coastal region; HQ 49th Fighter Group
moves from Hollandia to Biak Island; and the ground echelon of the 82d
Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron, 71st Tactical Reconnaissance Group, begins
a movement from Saidor to Biak Island; the air echelon operates from Saidor
with P-39s. B-24s of the Thirteenth Air Task Force bomb Eten and Dublon
Islands, Truk Atoll.

SUNDAY, 4 JUNE 1944

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 2 B-24s fly an uneventful reconnaissance over
Shimushiru Island; fuel shortage and equipment failure prevent flying to
Matsuwa Island (the secondary). Later, a B-25 and 2 P-38s fly a guardship
cover mission.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 20+ P-40s hit the Myitkyina area
while 19 others hit various points in N Burma, including Haka, Kamaing,
Kamasaing, Tagwin, and Bilumyo. B-25s continue the ammunition lift to Imphal,
India.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, P-40s bomb artillery positions and
targets of opportunity in the Watien area of the Salween battle front. Others
bomb railroad targets of opportunity in NE French Indochina.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Three mission are flown to France.
In the first mission (Mission 389), the effort is to be divided between the
Pas de Calais (COVER) area and the Normandy assault (NEPTUNE) area, however,
D-Day is postponed 24 hrs and the NEPTUNE force is cancelled. 183 of 201
B-17s and 51 of 56 B-24s attack 7 targets in the Pas de Calais area; 10 B-17s
are damaged; no casualties. Escorting are 130 P-47s and 42 P-51s; 2 P-51s are
lost; no casualties. In the second mission (Mission 390) 222 of 246 B-17s and
53 of 68 B-24s bomb 8 coastal defense positions in the same area using PFF; 1
B-17 is damaged beyond repair and 12 B-17s and 6 B-24s are damaged; 1 airman
is KIA. The third mission consists of 263 B-17s and 185 B-24s hitting
airfields, railway junctions and bridges; of the B-17s, 96 hit the Massey/
Palaiseau railroad bridge, 50 hit the Versailles/Metelots railroad bridge and
34 hit the Villeneuve/St George railroad bridge; of the B-24s, 23 hit
Brourges Airfield, 72 hit the Romorantin/Prunieres Airfield, 56 hit the Avord
Airfield, 55 hit the Bretigny Airfield and 8 hit the Melun bridges; 1 B-17
and 3 B-24s are damaged beyond repair; 34 B-17s and 27 B-24s are damaged; 10
airmen are KIA and 4 WIA. Escort is 135 P-47s and 277 P-51s; they claim 1-0-0
Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 P-51 is lost, 1 is damaged beyond repair and 1 damaged;
no casualties.
  2 B-17s fly weather reconnaissance over the UK and the Atlantic.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, 300+ B-26s and A-20s
bomb highway bridge and coastal batteries; almost 200 P-47s and P-51s dive-
bomb bridges, railroad junction, rolling stock and targets of opportunity.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 550+ B-17s and B-24s attack
communications in NW Italy and on both sides of the Franco-Italian frontier.
In France, B-17s hit the Antheor railroad viaduct and Var River railroad
bridges. In Italy, B-24s hit the marshalling yards at Genoa, Turin, Savona
and Novi Ligure, the viaduct at Recco, and the railroad bridges at Orelle and
Gad. Fighters fly 200+ sorties in support of the heavy bombers.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium bombers hit
railroad bridges in NC Italy; fighter-bombers concentrate on motor transport
on roads N of Rome over which the enemy is retreating as US Fifth Army
columns converge on the city amidst an enthusiastic welcome by the populace;
a record number of 600+ motor transport are claimed destroyed and almost as
many more damaged by AAF and Royal Air Force (RAF) units of the Mediterranean
Allied Tactical Air Force (MATAF).

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): During the night B-24s, staging
through Eniwetok Atoll, hit Truk Atoll; B-25s from Engebi Island, Eniwetok
Atoll, follow with a daylight raid on Ponape Island.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): Bad weather again prevents
strikes against the Rabaul area of New Britain Island. On Bougainville
Island, P-39s flying a total of 55 sorties, blast a truck park near Komai,
strafe huts at Doure, and attack a pier at Tunuru; 9 P-38s weathered out of
the Rabaul strike the Tonolai supply area; and a lone B-25 bombs Kahili.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, A-20s bomb
the town and harbor at Manokwari and shipping to the E in Geelvink Bay;
B-24s bomb Namber and Borokoe Airfields while fighters battle enemy
airplanes in the general area; B-24s bomb the area near the Orai River mouth
while A-20s hit Wewak and fighter-bombers pound the Hansa Bay coast; a
detachment of the 68th Troop Carrier Squadron, 433d Troop Carrier Group,
ceases operating from Tadji with C-47s and returns to base at Nadzab.

MONDAY, 5 JUNE 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 9 B-25s bomb Bhamo and 4 hit the
bridge at Ledan Chaung, while others continue ammunition haul into Imphal,
India; 50 fighter-bombers pound the Myitkyina area and 20+ others hit Loilaw,
Tagwin, Namti, and Mogaung. In India, HQ 3d Combat Cargo Group and 9th, 10th,
11th and 12th Combat Cargo Squadrons are activated at Sylhet with C-47s. With
this activation, the following squadrons, which have been operating from
bases in India since Apr 44, will shortly return to their bases in Italy and
Sicily: 4th Troop Carrier Squadron, 62d Troop Carrier Group, to Gaudo
Airfield, Italy and 16th, 17th, 18th and 35th Troop Carrier Squadrons, 64th
Troop Carrier Group, to Comiso, Sicily.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 12 P-40s support ground forces at
Watien and Lameng on the Salween front; 18 B-24s and 12 P-40s bomb Lashio;
7 B-24s blast the barracks and warehouse area at Namhkam; 8 P-40s hit 15
tanks at Taying; 29 P-40s attack numerous oil barges near Yuankiang, leaving
16 of them burning.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Twentieth Air Force): The Twentieth Air Force flies
its first B-29 combat mission. Of 98 B-29s airborne from India, 77 bomb the
primary target-the railroad shops at Bangkok, Siam; 5 B-29s are lost to
non-battle causes.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 392: 423 of 464 B-17s and
203 of 206 B-24s hit coastal defenses in the Le Havre, Caen, Boulogne and
Cherbourg, France areas; 4 B-17s and 2 B-24s are lost, 1 B-24 is damaged
beyond repair and 37 B-17s and 39 B-24s are damaged; 1 airman is KIA, 10 WIA
and 47 MIA. Escorting are 127 P-47s and 245 P-51s; 1 P-47 and 1 P-51 are lost
and 1 P-47 is damaged beyond repair.
  Mission 393: In France, 7 of 8 P-51 fighter-bomber attack a truck convoy
near Lille; the 8th P-51 bombs Lille/Vendeville Airfield; no losses.
  In preparation for D-Day, 3 B-17s fly weather reconnaissance over the UK
and the Atlantic Ocean.
  During the night, 11 B-24s fly CARPETBAGGER missions; 1 B-24 is lost over
Belgium.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, 100+ B-26s bomb coastal
defense batteries; 100+ P-47s dive-bomb targets in the same area.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Italy, 440+ B-17s and B-24s
hit targets; B-17s hit railroad bridges at Pioppi and Vado; and B-24s hit
marshallying yards at Bologna, Castel Maggiore, Forli, Ferrara, Faenza and 4
railroad bridges; P-38s and P-51s fly escort; 53 P-38s strafe Ferrara and
Poggio Renatico Airfields and 40 strafe and dive-bomb airfields at Bologna
and Reggio Emilia.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium bombers pound
road bridges just N of the forces retreating from Rome while fighter-bombers
continue attacks against motor transport, railway lines and roads in the
battle areas and N of Rome, destroying many vehicles and train cars, and
scoring numerous hits on bridges, tracks, and roads, as most of the US Fifth
Army assault forces cross the Tiber River in pursuit of the enemy and British
Eighth Army forces E of Rome prepare to advance astride the Tiber River
against Terni and Rieti.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-25s from Makin Island, hit
Nauru Island; B-24s from Eniwetok Atoll escort photo aircraft over Guam
Island, Marianas Islands, bomb the island, and proceed to Los Negros Island
for rearming. B-25s from Engebi Island, Eniwetok Atoll strike Ponape Island.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 23
B-25s bomb a truck park at Rabaul; 22 P-39s strike Ratawul; 11 P-38s hit
barges and buildings in the Vulcan Crater area. On Bougainville Island, 30+
P-39s hit vehicles in the Komai-Tobago vicinity, a wooded supply area N of
Buka airfield, Buka Island, and Cape Tanabom and Kangu Hill areas.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, P-39s and
Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) airplanes attack the Wewak area; B-24s
bomb the area N of Sorido airfield; during the night of 5/6 Jun an all-night
series of harassing raids by Japanese airplanes destroy several Allied
aircraft on Wakde Island; 7th Fighter Squadron, 49th Fighter Group, moves
from Hollandia to Biak Island with P-38s; and 110th Tactical Reconnaissance
Squadron, 71st Tactical Reconnaissance Group, moves from Gusap to Tadji with
P-39s.

TUESDAY, 6 JUNE 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 24 B-25s attack the Waingmaw,
Wuntho-Hopin area, and Imphal, India-Tiddim road; others maintain ammunition
lift into Imphal; 24 A-36s, 11 P-51s, and 45 P-40s pound Myitkyina; about 40
A-36s and P-40s hit the Mogaung, Mohnyin, Lachigahtawng, Pakhren-Sakan and
Kadu areas. In India, HQ 443d Troop Carrier Group moves from Sylhet to
Sookerating; and 11th and 12th Combat Cargo Squadron, 3d Combat Cargo Group,
move from Sylhet to Dinjan and Fenny respectively with C-47s.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 50 P-40s attack shipping, horses,
and troops in the Fulinpu Kweiyi vicinity, 10 P-51s and 6 B-25s pound Tayang
Chiang, and 5 B-25s bomb Pailochi Airfield; 9 P-40s hit road and rail targets
of opportunity in the Yellow River area; 2 others sink a junk and damage
others at Kwangchow Wan.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): The Eighth Air Force reaches its
top strength as the 493d Bombardment Group (Heavy) becomes operational,
making a total of 40 heavy bomber groups now operational.
  Heavy bombers fly 4 missions in support of the Normandy invasion:
  1. Mission 394: At first light, 659 of 882 B-17s and 418 of 543 B-24s hit
coastal targets in the area of the invasion beaches between Le Havre and
Cherbourg; overcast and inability of the bombers to locate (or absence of)
PFF leaders causes failure of some units to attack; 1 B-24 is lost, 1 B-24 is
damaged beyond repair and 14 B-17s and 1 B-24 are damaged; 12 airmen are KIA,
2 WIA and 13 MIA.
  2. Mission 394: The second mission strikes at transportation chokepoints in
towns immediately around the assault area; total cloud cover causes 84 B-17s
and 259 B-24s dispatched to return with their bombs but 37 B-24s manage to
bomb secondary target of Argentan; 2 B-24s are lost and 1 B-17 is damaged;
no casualties.
  3. Mission 395: The third mission is dispatched against the important
communications center of Caen; 58 of 73 B-24s bomb through overcast skies
without loss.
  4. Mission 395: Transportation chokepoints in towns immediately S and E of
the assault area are the objectives of the fourth mission; 325 of 409 B-17s
and 125 of 300 B-24s hit targets including Vire, Saint-Lo, Coutances,
Falaise, Lisieux, Thury-Harcourt, Pont-l'Eveque, Argentan, and Conde-sur-
Noireau; 1 B-24 is lost, 1 B-24 is damaged beyond repair and 11 B-24s and 5
B-17s are damaged; 10 airmen are KIA.
  In all, 1,729 bombers drop 3,596 tons of bombs during D-Day.
  The VIII Fighter Command has the threefold mission of escorting bombers,
attacking any movement toward the assault area, and protecting Allied
shipping. The fighters fly 1,880 sorties including fighter-bomber attacks
against 17 bridges, 10 marshalling yards, and a variety of other targets
including convoy, railroad cars, siding, rail and highway junctions, tunnel,
and a dam. Very little air opposition is encountered. The fighters claim
26-0-8 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 4-0-9 on the ground. Also destroyed
are 21 locomotives and 2 carloads of ammunition. Numerous targets are damaged
including locomotives, trucks, tank cars, armored vehicles, goods carriers,
barges, and tugboats. Targets attacked with unreported results include
warehouses, radar towers, barracks, troops, artillery, staff cars, 85 trains,
and a variety of other targets. 25 fighters are lost.
  Mission 396: During the night, 12 B-17s drop leaflets in France and the
Low Countries.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 800+ A-20s and B-26s bomb coastal
defense batteries, rail and road junctions and bridges, and marshalling yards
in support of the invasion; 2,000+ fighters fly sweeps, escort for B-26s and
C-47s, ground support, and dive-bombing missions over W France. During the
preceding night and during the day over 1,400 C-47s, C-53's, and gliders
deliver glider troops and paratroops, including 3 full airborne divisions,
which are to secure beach exits to facilitate inland movement of seaborne
assault troops. A total of about 30 aircraft are lost.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Shuttlebombing (Operation
FRANTIC) continues as 104 B-17s and 42 P-51s (having flown to the USSR from
Italy on 2 Jun) attack the airfield at Galati, Rumania and return to Soviet
shuttle bases; 8 enemy fighters are shot down and 2 P-51s are lost. 570+
other bombers, with fighter escort, hit targets from bases in Italy, i.e., in
Yugoslavia, B-17s hit the Belgrade marshalling yard and Turnu-Severin canal
installations, and in Rumania, B-24s hit Ploesti oil refineries and the
marshalling yard at Brasov.
  100th Fighter Squadron, 332d Fighter Group, moves from Capodichino to
Ramitelli Airfield, Italy with P-47s.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium, light and
fighter-bombers, and fighters all hit communications lines N of Rome to slow
the enemy retreat; bridges, road junctions, rail lines, roads, and motor
transport are continually attacked throughout the day, as British Eighth Army
forces W of the Tiber River reach Civita Castellana and US Fifth Army forces
push N and W toward Viterbo and Civitavecchia; HQ 324th Fighter Group and
314th Fighter Squadron move from Pignataro Maggiore to Le Banca Airfield with
P-40s; 111th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron, XII Tactical Air Command,
moves from Santa Maria to Nettuno with F-6s; and 523d Fighter Squadron, 27th
Fighter Group, moves from Santa Maria to Le Banca Airfield with P-47s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-24s returning to Eniwetok
Atoll from Los Negros Island (where they rearmed after bombing Guam Island
the previous day) hit Ponape Island.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): P-38s bomb a supply dump
near Nordup, New Britain Island. On Bougainville Island, P-39s and US Navy
(USN) aircraft hit vehicles near Hari; other P-39s pound a pier and buildings
in SE Kahili.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, B-24s and
B-25s bomb shipping near Efman and Waigeo Islands; A-20s hit the airfield
at Babo, and A-20s and B-25s hit Namber Airfield and tanks near Mokmer; and
P-39s, A-20s and RAAF aircraft continue to pound the Wewak-Hansa Bay area,
hitting supply dumps and hideouts. Thirteenth Air Task Force B-24s hit
islands in Truk Atoll.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Jun 1994 08:10:17 CDT
From:    Robert Hohlt <rhohlt@MGMSERV1.MGM.SAIC.COM>
Subject: INF: Axis troop distribution, 6 June, 1944

Of all of the great posts I have read on this list, yesterdays from
Larry & Kim Jewell really knocked my socks off.

Specifically :

> (5) Divisons Available to Germany on 6 June 1944 (Based on
> German Situation Maps)

> Theater                 Inf type       Pz type       Misc
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> Denmark                   2             1 + 2 Brig    3
> Norway                   11
> Finland                  10
> Eastern Front           122            25 + 1 Brig   17 + 1 Brig
...
rest deleted

To me, this speaks volumes about the Soviet Union's participation in
defeating Nazi Germany.   Also about they're contribution to the Allies
being able to successfully invade France.

I would like to see, if possible(Larry & Kim; anyone), how the Germans
had adjusted their resources around 2 (two) weeks after D-Day, and then again
after they had retreated from France.

 Fantastic stuff.



Robert Hohlt, Jr.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Jun 1994 08:15:00 EST
From:    Daniel Malepart <MALEPART@A1.ATMONT.MRGATE.ATOTT2.NRC.CA>
Subject: Re: TRV:D-Day

From:   NAME: Daniel Malipart
        FUNC: PARI/CPA/Montreal
        TEL: (514) 283-0348                   <MALEPART@A1@ATMONT>
To:     NAME: IN%"WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu <IN%"WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu"@NRCNET@MRGATE@ATOTT2>

    If I can add my two-cent worth to the "meaning of the D in D-Day"...

    In French, D-Day is translated as "Jour J".  So I would tend to think
    that the D stands for Day.

    Daniel Malepart, Computer specialist, Montreal, Qc, Canada
    malepart@a1.atmont.nrc.ca

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Jun 1994 09:40:08 -0400
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: MEDIA: Combat! marathon reminder

        This is just a quick reminder for the North American members that
The Nostalgia Channel (Cable) will be broadcasting a 48-hour Combat! marathon
starting at 1PM EST on June 4.  The episodes to be shown are from the last
season that had been filmed in color.  Apparently, these episodes were never
syndicated and Nostalgia claims that they will never show them again.  I
suspect that there will be repeats of some of these color episodes since
TV shows typically produced 26 episodes for any one season (which would
account for only 26 of the 48 hours).  Anyway, stock up on some blank tapes
and record, record, record!
--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
Have a little faith, baby...  Have a little faith.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Jun 1994 06:43:24 -0700
From:    Eric Fenster <efenster@IGC.APC.ORG>
Subject: Greetings from Moscow

>From efenster  Fri Jun  3 06:38:47 1994
>From efenster  Fri Jun  3 06:38:48 1994
Received: by igc.apc.org (8.6.9/Revision: 1.158 )
        id GAA00201; Fri, 3 Jun 1994 06:38:47 -0700
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 1994 06:38:47 -0700
From: Eric Fenster <efenster>
Message-Id: <199406031338.GAA00201@igc.apc.org>
To: efenster
Subject: Greetings from Moscow
Status: R

Greetings from Moscow!

  We arrived 12 days ago on a one month study trip exploring the
political and economic situation in Russia and have been submerged
in this puzzle day and night.
  There are 11 in the group, and last evening they were wondering
why these trips aren't greatly oversubscribed instead of being
cancelled for lack of interest. This discussion occurred after a full
day which included a lecture on the Russian work ethic and a meeting
with six graduate students from Siberia and elsewhere who are
involved in unemployment and other social issues.

  There is one more trip possible, from 28 Jul-23 Aug. I have mentioned
it before, but there are not enough participants and it will be
cancelled unless people make commitments over the next week.
  I recently learned that a major statewide American university system
with a long history of sending groups to study Russia turned up only
four people this year, and even they later withdrew.  To me, this lack
of interest is dangerous. It presumes that one can be indifferent to
what goes on in Russia at a time when the reality is greater instability
(and thus danger) than during the Cold War and when the world's whole
geopolitical balance is changing.

  I'll reproduce our current daily schedule below so you can have an
idea of what will take place in July-August. You can request practical
details, but I can only find time to get on Email occasionally so an
immediate response is necessary. Reply to: efenster@glas.apc.org
not to the list!

Eric Fenster
------------

Moscow study trip schedule

May

21   Arrival, accommodation

22   City tour, Kremlin churches
     How to use mass transit demonstration

23   Opening of course, discussion of program
     Lecture: Problems of CIS and regional relationships (Pelitsin,
     Inst. of Int'l Relations)
     Video documentaries

24   Lecture: Political pluralism in Russia today (Matveev, Gorbachev Institute)
     Meeting with principal and students of secondary school

25   Lecture: The social-economic crisis and the programs of the various
     political forces (Buzgalin, Moscow State Univ.)
     Video documentaries
     Ballet

26   Lecture: The civilizational destiny of Russia (Erasov, Oriental Institute)
     Video documentaries
     Ballet (self-organized)

27   Lecture: Problems of Russian history in the 20th century (Zasorin,
     Moscow Pedagogical Univ)
     Discussion with directors of social security programs (attending
     conference in Moscow)

28   Izmailovsky Park
     Group discussion
     Circus

29   Central House of Artists
     Boat ride

30   Lecture: Russia's new constitutional system (Baglai, Academy of Labor)
     Field visit to children's books publishing company
     Folk dancing concert

31   Lecture: Russia and relations with the East and Islamic countries
     (Erasov)
     Group discussion

June

01   Lecture: Labor ethics in Russia (Lapitsky)
     Video documentaries
     Meeting with students of Academy of Labor

02   Lecture: Trade unions in Russia, present and future (Milovidov,
     Academy of Labor)
     Visit to Novodevichy convent

03   Participation in international conference on present and future
     situation of democratic socialism

04   Continuation of conference
     Option of visit to WW2 memorial

05   Visit to monastery and churches in Sergeev-Posad

06   Lecture: Development of parliamentarianism in modern Russia (Zasorin)
     Visit to farm

07   All-day visit to agricultural machinery factory: tour,
     discussion with production director and workers, factory museum,
     meeting with editor of factory newspaper

08   Discussion: The Russian economy,present and future (Voeykov)
     Group discussion

09   Problems of transition to market economy (Voeykov)
     Visit to Pushkin Museum

10-  Visit to Vladimir, Suzdal, Gus-Khrustalny
12

13   Discussion: National harmony or social struggle (Matveev)
     Discussion: Russia and the ideology of the new age (Kemelbekova)

14   Criminality and the activities of law enforcement agencies (Vorontsov,
     Interior Ministry)
     Reserved for subject at participants' request

15   Discussion at request of participants (Matveev)
     or participation in seminar for French group from Bordeaux
     political science institute (under patronage of mayors of Paris
     and Bordeaux and foreign ministers of Russia and France)
     First day: Constitutional and party situation in Russia

16   Continuation of conference: Economic situation in Russia, views of
     Abalkin, Communists, Gaidar

17   Closing of course
     Optional continuation of French seminar

18   Return to USA
sorry for russian phone statixDc

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Jun 1994 12:18:28 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>
Subject: Any B-17s Over Omaha Beach?

I note in the most recent "chronology" posting that the first morning
mission of D-Day involved 659 B-17s and 418 B-24s bombing from Le Harve
to Cherbourg. Anybody got the Omaha Beach "Green Book" handy? I'd like to
know if B-17s were assigned to Oamha, or only to the British Commonwealth
beaches.

BTW, the only French book I've seen on D-Day was *J-Jour a Utah-Beach,"
so I doubt that the D came from the French. I still favor my Der Tag
hypothesis :-)

            - Dan      <dan.ford@unh.edu>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Jun 1994 12:31:57 -0400
From:    Kevin Kamphaus <kamphaus@PETSYS.AE.GE.COM>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Combat! marathon reminder

If I sent you a tape, would or could you dup it? I'll pay postage etc.

Thanks,

Kevin Kamphaus
kamphaus@petsys.ae.ge.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Jun 1994 13:00:11 EDT
From:    Richard Kaplan <kaplanr@CLP2.CLPGH.ORG>
Subject: Re: Insignia

As long as Tim brought up the two shoulder patches puzzle, I have a question
about when two patches were worn.  Was it a normal practice, and was it
restricted class A clothing?  Better yet, what patches were to be worn?  My
dad's Eisenhower jacket has two patches; one for the 45th Div. and one for XX
Corps.  The 45th was the divisional unit he was discharged from, but he
maintains that he never left active detached status with the 69th Signal Bn.

                                        Richard Kaplan
                                        Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Jun 1994 10:28:36 -0700
From:    Jim Benn <jrb@AGAVIION.AGFX.COM>
Subject: Re: MEDIA/D-Day

The morning paper today reported that CNN will provide live coverage,
Sunday, June 5th, 8:00 a.m. EST, of the parachute drop by American
veterans of the 82nd and 101st in Normandy.  God bless them, and prayers
that there are no injuries.

Jim Benn.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Jun 1994 14:58:25 -0400
From:    Kevin Kamphaus <kamphaus@PETSYS.AE.GE.COM>
Subject: A question of patches

A 2 part question: Part 1, Would a signal battalion have its own patches and/or would they have patches
assigned to them based on which infantry/armored/rifle etc group they were
traveling with. Part 2, Would they travel with some other ground pounding
organization following their progress or would they march to they beat of
their own drummer.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Jun 1994 16:29:46 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Insignia

On Fri, 3 Jun 1994, Richard Kaplan wrote:
> As long as Tim brought up the two shoulder patches puzzle, I have a question
> about when two patches were worn.  Was it a normal practice, and was it
> restricted class A clothing?  Better yet, what patches were to be worn?  My
> dad's Eisenhower jacket has two patches; one for the 45th Div. and one for XX
> Corps.  The 45th was the divisional unit he was discharged from, but he
> maintains that he never left active detached status with the 69th Signal Bn.

In the U.S. Army of the 1950s, you wore the patch of your present unit on
your left shoulder. If you had been in combat, you could wear the path of
your old wartime outfit on your right shoulder. There were a lot of 1st
Cav patches on right shoulders around Orleans, France, legacy of the
Korean War.

            - Dan      <dan.ford@unh.edu>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Jun 1994 13:50:22 -0700
From:    Ed Kettler <deradler@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: U.S. NAVY PHOTOS & SHIP INFO -Reply

My pleasure.  Thank your dad for me.

Regards,
Ed

Ed Kettler                                       deradler@netcom.com


On Fri, 3 Jun 1994, THOMAS CANNON JR. wrote:

> Thanks Ed for your kindness and answering my inquiry!  Thanks for
> your time and effort in sending me this info.  I will give it to my
> dad, and he will greatly appreciate it!
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Jun 1994 13:55:59 PST
From:    "Jones, Scott T." <sjones@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: TRV: John Ausland.

     Had an interesting coincidence yesterday...

     Friend and I were discussing the D-Day observations and such and he
     mentioned seeing a "Captain(?) John Ausland from Norway" on CNN
     discussing the topic. "I know him!", I said.

     I went home and read my small town rag of a newspaper (the Free-Lance
     Star) and there on the front page...John Ausland discussing his
     collection of letters home, his book, and a variety of other D-Day/ETO
     related things.

     Way to go, John! Keep up the great work with getting the word out and
     letting people know how it was!


     Scott

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
     Scott T. Jones                | "If it weren't for lawyers,
     Dahlgren, VA 22448  USA       |  we wouldn't need them!"
     Internet: Sjones@LOGICON.COM  |
_____________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Jun 1994 17:02:49 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>
Subject: D for Day

Nothing like a reality check! I looked at *Webster's New Collegiate* and
the *Shorter Oxford English Dictionary* and both agree that the phrase
derives from (as the Oxford puts it) "D for Day."

            - Dan      <dan.ford@unh.edu>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Jun 1994 16:50:26 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: Insignia

>
> As long as Tim brought up the two shoulder patches puzzle, I have a question
> about when two patches were worn.  Was it a normal practice, and was it
> restricted class A clothing?  Better yet, what patches were to be worn?  My
> dad's Eisenhower jacket has two patches; one for the 45th Div. and one for XX
> Corps.  The 45th was the divisional unit he was discharged from, but he
> maintains that he never left active detached status with the 69th Signal Bn.

Ordinarily (I can't think of another case) if you're talking about one on each
shoulder, the one on the left shoulder is the unit you're in NOW.  The one on
the right is the previous unit in which you saw COMBAT.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Jun 1994 14:26:51 -0700
From:    Ed Kettler <deradler@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: USN Paint Equivalents

Does anyone have a list of equivalent FS numbers for the following USN
WW2 paint colors?  Thanks in advance!

Light gray (5-L)
Dark gray (5-D)
Ocean gray (5-O)
Haze gray (5-H)
Sea Blue (5-S)
Deck blue (20-B)
Thayer Blue (5-B)
Aircraft carrier flight deck stain
Navy blue (5-N)
Pale gray (5-P)
Pale green (5-PG)
Light green (5-LG)
Haze green (5-HG)
Ocean green (5-OG)
Navy green (5-NG)
Deck green (20-G)
Green 2 (G-2)
Green 3 (G-3)

--
Ed Kettler                                       deradler@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Jun 1994 17:55:53 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: D-Day Events

>From the DoD Newswire 3 June 1994

:D DAY COMMEMORATION EVENTS

   Scores of events are scheduled Saturday through Monday to mark the
50th anniversary of D-Day. A partial list of some significant
ceremonies, with tentative times EDT.
   ------

   SATURDAY

   --CAMBRIDGE, England -- Clinton visits American cemetery, 7 a.m.
   --PORTSMOUTH, England -- Beat Retreat ceremony to symbolize
embarkation of invasion force, 1 p.m., followed by dinner with Queen
Elizabeth II.
   ------

   SUNDAY

   --SOUTHSEA, England -- Queen Elizabeth II, President Clinton,
12,000 veterans at Drumhead Service to commemorate commitment of
forces on D-Day, 7 a.m.
   --SPITHEAD, England -- Heads of state on royal yacht review
veterans embarking for Normandy, 9 a.m.
   --PORTSMOUTH, England -- Royal Yacht, USS George Washington and
rest of Normandy flotilla embark, 11 a.m.
   --SAINTE-MERE-EGLISE, France -- A group of U.S. veterans will
parachute again at the first village liberated in France, preceded by
active-duty paratroops. French Premier Edouard Balladur honors them
afterward, 8:30 a.m.
   --PEGASUS BRIDGE, France -- Active-duty British, Canadian and
French paratroops jump near the famed bridge over the Orne River,
under the gaze of Prince Charles, 10 a.m.
   --CAEN, France -- Wall listing names of U.S. servicemen who served
in the European theater will be dedicated, as will a campus for U.S.
students studying the Battle of Normandy, 11 a.m.
   ------

   MONDAY

   --POINTE du HOC, France -- U.S. President Clinton visits rubble of
the German coastal shore battery seized by U.S. Rangers on D-Day and
meets survivors, 2:30 a.m.
   --UTAH BEACH, France -- President Francois Mitterrand officially
welcomes Clinton to France in presence of several thousand U.S.
veterans at the northernmost D-Day beachhead, 3:45 a.m.
   --BAYEUX, France -- Mitterrand greets Queen Elizabeth II of
Britain, King Harald V of Norway and prime ministers of Britain,
Australia and New Zealand at the British military cemetery, 5 a.m.
   --HERMANVILLE, DOUVRES LA DELIVRANDE, RANVILLE, RYES, France --
Prince Charles and other royal members honor veterans at cemeteries at
the British beachheads of Sword and Gold. All at 5 a.m.
   --COURSELLES, France -- Prime Minister Jean Chretien of Canada pays
tribute to Canadian veterans whose comrades buried at this cemetery
near Juno Beach, 4:30 a.m.
   --OMAHA BEACH, France -- Fifteen leaders from the Allied nations
gather at D-Day's bloodiest battlefield for international ceremony.
Boats will bring ashore colors from D-Day military units, 8 a.m.
   --U.S. CEMETERY, France -- Some 8,000 U.S. veterans hear Clinton
speak at the U.S. military cemetery overlooking Omaha Beach, 11 a.m.
   --CAEN, France -- Following an official dinner for national
leaders, a spectacular sound, light and actors' show for 60,000 people
will be held at the Caen Memorial, 4 p.m.
======

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-8760
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-8760

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Jun 1994 17:57:13 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: D-Day Facts

>From the DoD Newswire  3 June 1994


:FACTS ON THE D DAY INVASION

   A sketch of Operation Overlord, the Allied invasion at Normandy:
   ------

   STRATEGIC GOAL: Allied commanders wanted to grab nearly
60-mile-wide foothold on Nazi-occupied Atlantic coast, opening way for
push across France to western Germany.
   ------

   WHY NORMANDY: Its coastal terrain favored invasion, offering
sloping beaches and relatively easy access inland. Closer to air bases
and ports in southern England. Less obvious choice than more heavily
defended site expected by Germans -- the Pas de Calais, strip of
French coast closest to England.
   ------

   FORCES: Allied first wave included about 160,000 men in three
paratroop and six infantry divisions, tank and commando units; more
than 1 million more waited in England. Invasion fleet was biggest
armada in history -- five battleships, 23 cruisers, 105 destroyers,
2,700 troop ships, 2,500 landing craft. Air units provided 3,500 heavy
bombers, 1,700 medium and light bombers, 5,500 fighters, 2,400
transport planes.
   Germans had one armored and six infantry divisions on Normandy
front, mostly undermanned, poorly equipped. Also, four destroyers, 31
torpedo boats and 15 submarines and less than 200 aircraft with novice
pilots.
   ------

   FIGHTING: U.S. 82nd and 101st airborne divisions secured approaches
to westernmost landing beach, "Utah." Britain's 6th Parachute Division
captured Orne River and Caen Canal bridges and guarded flank of
eastern beaches. Troopers came down scattered, complicating
coordination but also confusing Germans. About 20,000 men landed by
parachute or glider.
   Utah Beach, U.S. 4th and part of 90th infantry divisions landed on
eastern shoulder of Cotentin Peninsula. First wave mistakenly put
ashore more than mile south of target; error was good luck because
landing site less defended, enabling soldiers to push inland quickly.
About 23,250 ashore by nightfall.
   Omaha Beach, U.S. 1st and 29th infantry divisions had worst fight,
landing between Vierville sur Mer and Ste. Honorine to face intense
fire from Germans atop 150-foot bluffs. Early in battle, Lt. Gen. Omar
Bradley, commander of U.S. 1st Army, concluded, "our troops had
suffered an irreversible catastrophe." But troops finally broke
defenses. About 34,250 landed.
   Gold Beach, British 50th Infantry Division and 8th Armored Brigade
easily cleared landing zone from Arromanches to La Riviere, aided by
special tanks developed by British for peculiarities of amphibious
fighting; U.S. Army spurned the "funnies" to its regret. About 25,000
men got ashore.
   Juno Beach, Canadian 3rd Infantry Division and 2nd Armored Brigade
also faced light resistance on beach from La Riviere to St. Aubin.
Troops moved inland toward Breteville and Caen. About 21,400 men were
ashore.
   Sword Beach, British 3rd Infantry Division, 27th Armored Brigade
and four commando battalions landed between Lion sur Mer and mouth of
Orne River. Routes leading from beach quickly cleared, but congestion
and pockets of German resistance slowed advance. About 28,850 men
landed.
   ------

   CASUALTIES: Confusion of landing prevented definitive count;
estimated 2,500 Allied dead, about one-fourth the expected toll, and
7,500 wounded. Germans had 4,000-8,000 killed and wounded.
   ------

   RESULTS: Allied troops reached almost none of first-day objectives
-- Caen not taken for 33 days. But with 155,000 men ashore by
nightfall, Germans had no chance to drive them back into sea. By July
1, Allies had 1 million soldiers in Normandy. Armies broke out of
peninsula July 25 and began race across France.
=====

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-8760
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-8760

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Jun 1994 20:28:28 -0500
From:    GEARHEART DRAKE ERICK <gearhart@FALCON.CC.UKANS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Insignia

That is a patch for one of the Army Groups.  I think it's 3rd army.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 3 Jun 1994 22:52:13 EDT
From:    JohnS426@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Greetings from M...

Hi all,
Drake posted some genuine concerns about travel conditions in Russia, but
from my experience considerably over stated. I have been to Russia and
Ukraine 5 times in past 2 years for over 3 months total. I personally led two
tours - 54 people and 12 people - I went solo the other times.  We were from
Vyborg to Balaclava and Kiev to Vladimir with many cities and towns in
between.I organized a number of other smaller tours for others and am in the
process of sending some folks at this very month. One has to exercise the
usual precautions on crime, but I would certainly rather walk and did walk
around in Moscow where I would never do so in Wash DC or NYC. The food was
copiously supplied and excellent - because it was special for visitors of
course. True, one never drinks the water, especially in St. Petersburg, but
bottled water and soda was plentiful and cheap. My personal visits are with
Russian and Ukrainian military officers and historians and the tours are
focused on military history as well as general cultural sightseeing, so it is
not living on the economy in any sense. I have visited a number of Russians
in their apartments and can attest to the appaling living conditions -
another legacy of socialism in action.
At the moment I have been invited to attend the annual reenactment of
Borodino - first Sunday in Sept - and stay a couple of days in the camp,
under canvas. Am looking for sturdy souls who would like to share a unique
experience - especially if they are historical reenactors who would bring
their uniforms of whatever period. My Russian friends have also organized a
summer school for foreign students being held in one of the space ministry
academic buildings. I know several American students who very much
appreciated full year study programs within the last couple of years, living
in Russian student accomodations.
For WWII students we have prepared several special itineraries for "staff
rides" to battles of Kursk, Leningrad, Smolensk. Stalingrad and others. Next
year will the the commemoration of the 300th anniversary of the founding of
the Russian navy and special programs and tours are being planned now that
will take participants to places and on board naval vessels in an
unprecedented way. Also there will be commemorations of the 50 year end of
WWII next summer.  So I urge everyone with a taste for adventure to go to
Russia whenever they can, but if you want to go but feel you need a little
security and assistance, then let me know and I will arrange for it.
Best wishes
John Sloan
johns426@aol.com

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 2 Jun 1994 to 3 Jun 1994
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 6 messages totalling 253 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. MEDIA: THANKS AND REQUEST FOR HELP
  2. INF: USN Chronology 06-04-94
  3. INF: 50 Years Ago Today - 04-JUN-1944
  4. TRV: John Ausland.
  5. Re[2]: MEDIA: CNN COVERAGE OF D-DAY
  6. NOST: 50 years ago this week

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 4 Jun 1994 14:13:14 +0200
From:    John Ausland <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: MEDIA: THANKS AND REQUEST FOR HELP

  Oslo, June 4.
The following message appeared on my screen this morning:

Date:    Fri, 3 Jun 1994 13:55:59 PST
From:    "Jones, Scott T." <sjones@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: TRV: John Ausland.

     Had an interesting coincidence yesterday...

     Friend and I were discussing the D-Day observations and such and he
     mentioned seeing a "Captain(?) John Ausland from Norway" on CNN
     discussing the topic. "I know him!", I said.

     I went home and read my small town rag of a newspaper (the Free-Lance
     Star) and there on the front page...John Ausland discussing his
     collection of letters home, his book, and a variety of other D-Day/ETO
     related things.

     Way to go, John! Keep up the great work with getting the word out and
     letting people know how it was!

COMMENT:  Now that I have been caught, I have to confess that I am appearing
occasionally on Mark Leff's programs "On this day..." on CNN.  These are
excerpts from an interview in Washington, DC in April.  I believe, however, I am
listed as Lt., the rank I held on the landing.  As I recall, I got my captain's
bars shortly after the breakout, as a result of moving to an infantry battalion
as artillery liaison.  The reason for this move was not a happy one.  It came
about as a part of a resuffle of officers in the battalion, following the loss
of one of our batteries to a mine on the landing.

As to the newspaper story, this is the first sign I have seen that any paper
picked up the Associated Press interview with me last week.  (Several list users
have now been kind enough to send me the text of the AP story that went out on
the wires.)  I would be grateful if Scott, and anyone else who sees a story
based on the AP story, would send me the clipping, so I can add it to my
scrapbook.  My mailing address is: Sondreveien 4 Entry 2, 0378 Oslo, Norway.

  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 4 Jun 1994 04:33:59 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 06-04-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
06/04 Sun. German submarine U-505 is captured by hunter-killer
           group 150 miles off the coast of Rio de Oro, Africa.
           Hunter-killer group (Capt. D. V. Gallery) consists of
           escort carrier GUADALCANAL (CVE-60, Capt. D. V.
           Gallery), and escort division (Comdr. F. S. Hall),
           composed of destroyer escorts PILLSBURY (DE-133, Lt.
           G. W. Casselman), POPE (DE-134, Lt. Comdr. E. H.
           Headland), FLAHERTY (De-135, Lt. Comdr. M. Johnston),
           CHATELAIN (DE-149, Lt. Comdr. D. S. Knox), and JENKS
           (DE-665, Lt. Comdr. J. F. Way).
           Japanese aircraft attack Allied cruiser and destroyer
           force (Rear Adm. V. A. C. Crutchley, RN) off Biak,
           New Guinea; two United States light cruisers area
           damaged.
            United States naval vessels damaged:
             Light cruiser NASHVILLE (CL-43), by horizontal
              bomber, western New Guinea area,
              01 d. 05' S., 136 d. 05' E.
             Light cruiser PHOENIX (CL-46), by horizontal
              bomber, western New Guinea area,
              01 d. 00' S., 136 d. 00' E.
            Japanese naval vessel sunk:
             Transport No. 128, by Army aircraft, Philippine
              Sea,
              04 d. 09' N., 129 d. 45' E.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 4 Jun 1994 07:53:04 -0500
From:    John Davis <JBDML@OSBM6.OSBM.STATE.NC.US>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago Today - 04-JUN-1944

On 04-JUN-1944, the following occurred -

Rome Liberated!!

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Prelude to Operation Overlord - Convoys for the invasion of France are at sea
     but have to turn back because of bad weather in the channel. After
     consultation with the meteorological staff, General Dwight Eisenhower
     decides that the invasion will take place on June 6th when a break in the
     weather is expected. If the invasion can not take place on the 6th it
     will be sometime in July before the combination of moon and tides are
     correct for a succesfull invasion to take place. The bad weather has
     helped put the Germans off their guard. Rommel has decided to take this
     opportunity to go to Germany for his wife's birthday. Other more junior
     officers are also away from their posts, attending a training exercise in
     Brittany. At midnight of June the 4th the invasion convoys reform and set
     off again for France.

Italian Front - The U.S. 9th Army captures Rome. The first of General Mark
     Clark's units enter the suburbs in the south just as the last of the
     German rearguards are leaving the city. At 7:15 pm the American 88th
     Division reaches the Piazza Venezia.

New Guinea - Preparations are made for the invasion of Numfoor Island, west of
     Biak. Numfoor contains 3 airfields that can be used as jumping-off places
     against the central Pacific and also to control the sea routes west of
     Biak.

Burma/China - Chinese artillery silence the Japanese batteries which have been
     shelling the Huei-jen bridge on the river Salween. The village of Lameng
     is occupied by the Chinese 28th Division.

India - The 20th Indian Division advances north towards Ukhrul in the Imphal
     area and joins up with the 7th Indian Division.

Naval Dispatches
----------------
German submarine U-505 is captured 150 miles off the coast of Rio de Oro,
     Africa. The U-505 is captured by a group composed of the escort carrier
     GUADALCANAL (CVE-60) captained by Capt. D.V. Gallery and destroyer
     escorts PILLSBURY (DE-133), POPE (DE-134), FLAHERTY (DE-135), CHATELAIN
     (DE-149) and JENKS (DE-665).

U.S. light cruisers NASHVILLE (CL-43) and PHOENIX (CL-46) are damaged by
     horizontal bombing in the western New Guinea area.

The Homefront
-------------
Ku Klux Klan Disbands - The Atlanta Georgian reports that the KKK which had a
     membership of more than 5,000,000 some 20 years ago has disbanded and
     that Imperial Wizard J.A. Colescott, head of the order since 1938, has
     left Atlanta.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  jbd@osbm.state.nc.us
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 4 Jun 1994 07:50:54 -0500
From:    John Davis <JBDML@OSBM6.OSBM.STATE.NC.US>
Subject: Re: TRV: John Ausland.

>      Had an interesting coincidence yesterday...
>
>      Friend and I were discussing the D-Day observations and such and he
>      mentioned seeing a "Captain(?) John Ausland from Norway" on CNN
>      discussing the topic. "I know him!", I said.

If you have access to the Usenet and your provider carries the Clarinet news
service, they also had two AP articles about John yesterday. One was an
interview and one was a reprint of one of his letters home. They appeared in
the clari.living.history newsgroup.

----------
John Davis (jbd@osbm.state.nc.us)
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 4 Jun 1994 21:04:47 EDT
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor,
         Marist Coll" <JZML@MARISTB.BITNET>
Subject: Re[2]: MEDIA: CNN COVERAGE OF D-DAY

>
>All this has got me thinking about how much of my own country's history
>is "masked" by the deeds of our allies. I got to thinking how much
>I have read/seen on TV re eg the Battle of the Bulge, and yet
>one hears absolutely nothing on say, the British/Commonwealth victory
>at Imphal Kohima....


>steve baldwin
>smb@netmgrs.co.uk
Steven - Some of the non-network D-Day television retrospectives,
such as the ones on our non-commercial public broadcasting system,
have given some measure of credit to British troops and to Australians
and Canadians (to a lesser extent) but I agree, not nearly enough!
Regards-

Jonah Triebwasser
Adjunct Instructor
Marist College
Dyson Building (Adult Education)
Poughkeepsie, New York12601
Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
E-Mail: jzml@maristb.marist.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 4 Jun 1994 21:39:35 EDT
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor,
         Marist Coll" <JZML@MARISTB.BITNET>
Subject: NOST: 50 years ago this week

I have obtained two calendars, one from the International Churchill
Society and one from the US Department of Defense which highlight
some of the events of WWII. As time permits, I will post some of
these events:

Fifty Years ago this week:
Sources: (c) = Churchill society; (d) = Defense Dept.

5 June - Churchill (WSC) visits Eisenhower (Ike) and Montgomery (Monty)
at Southwick Park. Ike on invasion: "OK< let's go." (c)

6 June - D-DAY. British land on Gold and Sword; Canadians on Juno;
Americans on Utah and Omaha. WSC lunches with the King and waits (c).
Allies land at Normandy (Operation Overlord) (d).

7 June - 250,000 troops ashore. (c)

8 June - WSC and Mrs. Churchill accompany King to the Map Room (c).

9 June - Hitler still believes that the main attack will come at
Pas-de-Calais (c).

10 June - Spitfires begin using bases in France (c).

11 June - Monty: "We have won the battle of the beaches." (c)

Jonah Triebwasser
Adjunct Instructor
Marist College
Dyson Building (Adult Education)
Poughkeepsie, New York12601
Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
E-Mail: jzml@maristb.marist.edu

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 3 Jun 1994 to 4 Jun 1994
***********************************************

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There are 4 messages totalling 247 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. WEAP US Tank Destroyers
  2. INF: USN Chronology 06-05-94
  3. INF: 50 Years Ago Today - 05-JUN-1944
  4. SUBSCRIBE

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Jun 1994 01:28:40 EDT
From:    VJT@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: WEAP US Tank Destroyers

Scott and others,

Thanks for the thoughtful repsonses.  I've been away for the past week and
apologize for my late reply.  Because it has been so long, I've repeated more
of the discussion than I'd like.

I wrote
>By the end of the war, improvements in US tanks like the M-26 made the TDs
superfluous.

Scott responded:
>Hmmm, I sort of disagree here. I don't think the US fielded a good MBT
(main battle tank) until the Pattons around 15 years later. The Pershing
probably rates as a failure. IMO the thing that made TDs unnecessary was
the lack of a large ongoing mechanised war; this gave the USA time to
develop a true MBT and reorganize the tank force without having too
many combat considerations interfere.<

The M26 was not perfect, but is solved the crucial problems of sufficient
firepower and adequate protection that plagued US tanks in their real world
employment. You are right, the TD concept was based on a threat that never
really materialized (except maybe in the Ardennes) large formations of German
armor penetrating the crust of the American infantry defense.  But remember,
US tanks were never deisgned or intended to be close combat systems.  Their
high mobility and low-velocity cannon were part of a weapon optimized for
exploitation and pursuit, not for deliberate attacks or main line defense.
 The problem was none of the senior US generals except Patton seemed to
notice this.  The result - much as in the case of the TDs - was a weapons
system and attendent force structure tailored to execute a doctrine of which
the senior leadership was largely ignorant.  Frankly, many Americans died
because the senior Army leadership didn't have its feces collated on armored
warfare.  Once Ft Knox figured out that the generals weren't using tanks
according to the school solution, we start seeing tanks like the M26 that can
fight like a true main battle tank and go toe to toe with the Tiger and
Panther.

I wrote:
>On the down side, turretless armored vehicles had characteristics that
>made them less than desirable.  One major tactical drawback was limited
>main gun traverse - only 10 degrees right or left on the StuG III.
>This makes for real problems when tracking moving targets or when
>attacked from an unexpected direction.


Scott responds,
>A target moving at 16 km/hour (about 10 MPH), a gut busting speed for cross
country in WW2, moves around 260 meters (a meter is about one yard) per
minute. At around 500 meters, 10 degrees covers about 85 meters....that is
about 20 seconds of travel for the target, assuming it is moving across
the line of sight (ie tangentially). Thats certainly not a leisurely amount
of time to aim and get a shot off, but it is probably a "worst case"
estimate for that range.<

I agree with your figures but....  500 meters was probably a good average
engagement range in northwest Europe.  Sure there are places where you can
see and shoot farther, but the problem of target acquistion remains.  High
power optics were not the order of the day in WW2 tanks.  Poor weather
conditions, crew fatigue, rolling terrain, vegetation, and confusion on the
battlefield all worked aginst long range tank aquisition.  In my mind, the
biggest drawback to a limited traverse cannon is the problem of major
deflection changes - reorienting the entire platform to engage targets in an
unexpected direction.  In this situation, that short 500m engagement range
would only make things worse for the poor guy stuck in a turretless vehicle.
 10 degree of traverse would alow to you cover a reasonably wide sector of
fire in long range   85m is n't very wide at all.  To cover a wider
enangement area, you'd have to repostion with your fighting position.  If you
have to reposition, you increase the chance of giving your own position away
(for example: exhaust plume, foliage movement, reflections off optics,
movement etc.)


I wrote:
>In an austere logistical environment like the Germans faced in 1944-45,
>ammunition on board were much more important than ammunition in the
>pipeline or cached.

Scott responds:
>Hmmm....I don't know that I'd agree with that. I would think caching
ammo behind the lines and distributing a limited on-vehicle load makes
better use of a limited supply than topping everyone off and having no
reserve to draw from. Better to have a reserve available where you need
it rather than diffuse your resources.<

I think you miss my admittedly small point.   Resupply cannot be taken for
granted when you logistical tail is subjected to frequent air attacks, a
shortage of trucks (and spare parts) etc.  Caches only work in prepared
defensive positiosn, they are vulnerable to enemy fires, and can be time and
manpower intensive to construct.    Also, the mix of ammunition types a
vehicle carries makes a difference in certain situations.   The less
ammunition you can carry, the more difficult the decisions about how you
allocate that precious resource between anti-tank, high-explosive, and smoke
rounds.  Also don't forget that it takes time for a tank crew to rearm.  The
vehicle usually has to leave the fight and find its cache or resupply  (for
inexperienced crews that finding part can be especially tough).  Shell
casings have to be discarded, new ammunition dsitributed, uncrated, uploaded
and secured etc. before you can rejoin the fight.  All other things being
equal, having another dozen rounds on board can mean the difference between
being able to hold you position and having to withdraw.


Scott adds
 >Air supremacy and superior weapons were vital compenents in the defeat
of the Iraqis IMO. When I hear stories of T-72s shooting M1s at
point blank range and the rounds just bounce off...well, that kind
of makes it hard to blame poor training.   :-)<

First, I agree about the air power and general weapons superiority being
essential parts of the Allied victory.  Don't believe everything you hear
about the Gulf.  The T-72 has a reasonable chance to defeating the M1A1 under
most circumstances.  The point being, crew training and tactics are equally
as important as technology in the outcome.   BTW, did you hear that Bradley
25mm APDS-T rounds penetrated the flanks of Iraqi T-55 series tanks in the
Gulf?  That one _is_ true.  Technology does make a diference, but not all the
time.  I think I saw Gabel's _Seek Strike and Destroy_ at the latest GPO
catalog.  I really recommend it highly.  It is concise, well written, and
convincingly argued.


Allons!

CPT V.J. Tedesco III
Cavalryman & Scholar
Pennsylvania State University
(814) 867-7006
E-Mail = vjt@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Jun 1994 01:19:58 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 06-05-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
06/05 Mon. Submarine NAUTILUS (SS-168) lands supplies at
           Tucuran, Mindanao, P. I.
            United States naval vessel sunk:
             Minesweeper OSPREY (AM-56), by mine, off Normandy,
              France,
              50 d. 12 N., 01 d. 20' W.
            United States naval vessel damaged:
             LST 981, by mine, off Normandy, France,
              50 d. 45' N., 00 d.43' E.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Jun 1994 07:50:53 -0500
From:    John Davis <JBDML@OSBM6.OSBM.STATE.NC.US>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago Today - 05-JUN-1944

On 05-JUN-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Prelude to Operation Overlord - Beginning in the early morning hours the
     invasion convoys have set off for France. At 10:15 pm the second half of
     the Verlaine poem is sent out to the French resistance. Shortly after
     10:00 pm the airborne troops take off. A vast fleet is in-route to the
     French coast. Some 2,727 ships of every kind carry or tow more than 2,500
     landing craft. They are escorted by over 700 warships, including 5
     battleships (British WARSPITE and RAMILLIES, American TEXAS, ARKANSAS and
     NEVADA), 23 cruisers and 104 destroyers. Convoys total 21 American and 38
     British and Canadian. As midnight of June 5th comes around the sky over
     Normandy, bright as day with flares is filled with the rumble of aircraft
     and German anti-aircraft guns as Allied night bombing opens the assault.

Italian Front - The Allied troops enter Rome and are given a tremendous
     welcome by the population. The Allies continue through Rome and take up
     the pursuit of the German 14th Army. Problems of traffic congestion
     prevent the allies from using their full strength however. The German
     retreat makes full use of skillful rearguard actions.

New Guinea - On Biak, the 186th Infantry Regiment advances as far as the
     biggest hill on the island, north-east of the Mokmer airfield. The 162nd
     Infantry wipes out the Japanese blocking the track that leads to the
     interior of Biak and makes contact with the 186th. The Japanese
     resistance is still unbroken however. In the Aitape area, American forces
     have to evacuate the Yakamul area by sea. Additional units are sent
     inland from Aitape with the plan of getting behind the Japanese which are
     advancing from the east and to try take them from the rear.

Burma/China - The Chinese 71st Army has now crossed the river Salween with
     20,000 troops.

India - The battle of Kohima ends in Allied victory with the British 2nd
     Division finishing off Japanese resistance on the Aradura spur, south of
     Kohima. The road from Kohima to Imphal is still closed however.

Thailand - The first bombing mission against Bangkok is carried out by B-29
     Superfortresses from the U.S. XX Bomber Group.

Naval Dispatches
----------------
Submarine NAUTILUS (SS-168) lands supplies at Tucuran, Mindanao.

U.S. minesweeper OSPREY (AM-56) is sunk by a mine off Normandy, France.

U.S. LST 981 is damaged by a mine off Normandy, France.

The Homefront
-------------
Senate Votes OPA Extension - The Senate has approved a bill that would extend
     wartime price, wage and rent controls through the end of 1945.

Polish Premier in U.S. -  Premier Mikolajczyk has arrived in Washington at the
     invitation of the U.S. government for discussions with President
     Roosevelt and Sec. of Stae Hull on issues involved in the boundary
     dispute with Russia.

Bestselling Books - "Return Of The Traveller" by Rex Warner, "The Rest Of Your
     Life" by Leo Cherne, "Tailor's Progress" by Benjamin Stolberg and "Leave
     Her To Heaven" by Ben Williams.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  jbd@osbm.state.nc.us
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Jun 1994 18:01:31 -0500
From:    "TOM BROWN...LAKE_TPB@VXC.UNCWIL.EDU" <LAKE_TPB@UNCWIL.BITNET>
Subject: SUBSCRIBE

SUBSCRIBE Tom Brown

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 4 Jun 1994 to 5 Jun 1994
***********************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 5 Jun 1994 to 6 Jun 1994
To: Recipients of WWII-L digests <WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Status: O

There are 35 messages totalling 1841 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. ARC: German Airborne Operations (2)
  2. Chicago D-Day Reenactment
  3. TRV: D-Day & USS George Washington (4)
  4. INF: USN Chronology 06-06-94
  5. INF: 50 Years Ago Today - 06-JUN-1944
  6. TRV:D-Day
  7. Ref: D-Day Reenactment, AAR
  8. Ref: Chicago D-Day Reenactment, part 2
  9. D-DAY (7)
 10. Ref: Chicago D-Day reenactment, part 3
 11. John Lundstrom:  Request for your 22Jun41 Sov. O/B (fwd)
 12. Ref: Chicago D-Day reenactment, part 4
 13. MEDIA: D-Day/American Experience
 14. U.S. Army Manuals (3)
 15. "Why D-Day Lives" (2)
 16. Black Widow Squadrons and CO's
 17. John's 22 Jun 41 Sov. O/B
 18. The "D" in D-Day
 19. ARC: FTP SITES (LONG)
 20. E-mail to Scotland
 21. Re[2]: ARC: German Airborne Operations
 22. Re[2]: D-DAY

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Jun 1994 11:33:54 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: ARC: German Airborne Operations

The study listed below is now avaiable from:

byrd.mu.wvnet.edu

in directory:

/ftp/pub/history/military/wwii/special.studies/german.airborne.ops

AIRBORNE OPERATIONS

A German Appraisal

[snip]

PREFACE

This study was written for the Historical Division, EUCOM, by a
committee of former German officers. It follows an outline prepared by
the Office of the Chief of Military History, Special Staff, United
States Army, which is given below:

1. a. A review of German airborne experience in World War II.
   b. An appraisal of German successes and failures.
   c. Reasons for the apparent abandonment of large-scale German
        airborne operations after the Crete operation.

2. a. German experience in opposing Allied and Russian airborne
        operations.
   b. An appraisal of the effectiveness of these operations.

3. The probable future of airborne operations.

[snip]

THE CONTRIBUTORS

Generalmajor (Brigadier General) Hellmuth Reinhardt, committee chairman
and principal author, was Deputy Chief, General Army Office, 1941-43,
and later Chief of Staff, Eighth Army, on the southern front in the
Ukraine and Romania.

Contributors on German airborne operations:

Generalleutant (Major General) Werner Ehrig, operations officer of the
22d (Army Air Landing) division during the attack on Holland.

Oberst (Colonel) Freiherr von der Heydte, an outstanding field commander
of German parachute troops, author of the  Appendix.

Generalfeldmarschall (Field Marshal) Albert Kesselring, commander of the
German Second Air Force during the Netherlands campaign, and later
Commander in Chief, Southwest.

General der Fallschirmtruppen (Lieutenant General) Eugen Meindl,
regimental commander during the attack on Crete, later airborne division
and corps commander.

Generalleutant (Major General) Max Pemsel, Chief of Staff, XVIII Corps,
which included the ground forces committed in the attack on Crete.

Generaloberst (General) Kurt Student, the chief of German parachute
troops during the entire war.

Contributors on Allied airborne operations, and on German defense
measures against them:

General der Infanterie (Lieutenant General) Guenther Blumentritt, Chief
of Staff, OB West.

Oberst (Colonel) Albert Emmerich, G-3, German First Army.

General der Flakartillerie (Lieutenant General) August Schmidt, in 1944
commander of Luftgau VI, which provided the mobile troops to combat
Allied airborne landings at Nijmegen and Arnhem.

General der Kavallerie (Lieutenant General) Siegfried Westphal, the
chief of staff of OB Southwest in Sicily and Italy, and later of OB
West.

Oberst (Colonel) Fritz Ziegelmann, G-3, 352d Infantry Division.

Byrd is available via FTP and through gopher. Byrd is mirrored at
sunsite.unc.edu in the "Marshall" directory. sunsite is available via
WWW. Contact your service provider for information on accessing these
sites.

Larry J

JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Co-Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU (Historical docs)
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Jun 1994 23:03:30 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: Re: Chicago D-Day Reenactment

This is a "just wondering":

I was returning today (Sunday) from a weekend trip to Indianapolis
back home to Virginia.  During mid-afternoon, while somewhere in Ohio
or West Virginia, on Interstate 70, I passed a convoy which was
hauling several WWII pieces of equipment.  There was one half track,
one Sherman tank, and one other tank that was smaller. (Love that
detail? :-) )

I assume they were on their way home from the Chicago Reenactment.
Anybody know for sure, or where they were headed?

Thanks.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA 22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Jun 1994 08:53:22 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <smb@NETMGRS.CO.UK>
Subject: TRV: D-Day & USS George Washington

Whilst watching the commemorations on TV yesterday (well, the highlights
put on BBC TV between 2350-0050 [and then we wonder why no-one knows any
history in the UK...]), I watched with interest the service held on
Southsea Common and the mini fleet review afterwards.

This part of the world is where I studied, and, being a native of the
Isle of Wight, I have watched all sorts of ships coming and going.
Anyway, the USS George Washington was described as the largest warship
in the world, and it certainly is a most impressive and awe-inspiring
piece of apparatus. (The RN in comparison has 3 rowing boats
Ark Royal, Illustrious, Invincible) with hand-powered paper jets...]

I always thought the USS Nimitz took the top spot in the "biggest in
the world" competition. I can remember that ship anchored in the Solent
and completely dominmating the sea (there was no way it could fit into
Portsmouth Harbour)

Can anyone confirm or correct the statement on the Geoarge Washington?

best regards

steve baldwin
smb@netmgrs.co.uk

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Jun 1994 01:39:55 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 06-06-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
06/06 Tue. Allied Expeditionary Force under the supreme command
           of Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower, USA, invades Western
           Europe. Landings are made on beaches of Normandy,
           France, following pre-invasion minesweeping and
           bombardment by Allied warships, and under the cover
           of Allied aircraft and naval gunfire.  The invasion
           fleet of thousands of naval vessels, merchant ships,
           and landing craft under the command of Adm. Sir
           Bertram H. Ramsay, RN, is divided into a Western
           (American) Task Force and an Eastern (British) Task
           Force.  The Western Task Force, commanded by Rear
           Adm. A. G. Kirk, USN, and composed to two assault
           forces, "O" under the command of Rear Adm. J. L Hall,
           USN, and "U" under the command of Read Adm. D. P.
           Moon, USN, lands the First United States Army
           commanded by Lt. Gen. O. N. Bradley, USA, on "Omaha"
           and "Utah" beaches.  Naval gunfire support groups
           commanded by Rear Adm. M. L. Deyo, USN, and Rear Adm.
           C. F. Bryant, USN effectively prevent the Germans
           from moving up reinforcements and cover the troops
           advancing inland.  After the beachheads are
           established, the primary naval responsibility is the
           landing of men and supplies.
            United States naval vessels sunk, Normandy invasion:
             Destroyer CORRY (DD-463) by mine,
              49 d. 31' N., 01 d. 12' W.
             Submarine chaser PC-1261, by mine,
              49 d. 30' N., 01 d. 10' W.
            United States naval vessel damaged, Normandy
             invasion:
             LST 375, by collision,
              42 d. 31' N., 00 d. 50' W.
            [United States naval vessels listed as sunk or
            damaged in the Normandy invasion do not include
            amphibious types smaller than the LST.]
             Japanese naval vessels sunk:
              Destroyer MINAZUKI, by submarine HARDER (SS-257),
               Celebes Sea,
               04 d. 05' N., 119 d. 30' E.
              Coastal defense vessel No. 15, by submarine RATON
              (SS-270), South China Sea,
              08 d. 58' N., 109 d. 30' E.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Jun 1994 07:35:39 -0500
From:    John Davis <JBDML@OSBM6.OSBM.STATE.NC.US>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago Today - 06-JUN-1944

On 06-JUN-1944, the following occurred -

D-DAY!!

Operation Overlord - The Invasion of France
-------------------------------------------
The Allies land in Normandy on the north coast of France during the early
hours of June 6th. The long awaited second front has finally arrived. The
Allied Expeditionary Force is headed by General Dwight D. Eisenhower, U.S.
Army. The invasion is composed of landings by airborne troops and along five
beachheads: Utah, Omaha, Gold, Juno and Sword. Utah and Omaha are in the
American 1st Army sector; while Gold, Juno and Sword located further east are
in the British 2nd Army sector.

Airborne Landings - The airborne forces are composed of three airborne
     divisions, the American 82nd and 101st and the British 6th for a total of
     about 20,000 troops. The 82nd and 101st are to be dropped inland between
     Ste Mere Eglise and Carentan in support of the Utah beach landings; while
     the British 6th is to be dropped east of the river Orne in the Caen area
     in support of the Sword beach landings. The two American divisions begin
     to land shortly after midnight. Due to a combination of the inexperience
     of the pilots, anti-aircraft fire and also some cloud cover the men of
     both the 82nd and 101st are dropped in a widely scattered area. In
     addition, many men are lost due to drowning in the swamps which have been
     intentionally flooded by Rommel. Because of the wide scattering it is
     difficult for the various units to join up. At dawn, the 101st only has
     1,100 under command out of 6,600. Small groups of men are having to
     attempt tasks planned for battalions. In a multitude of small gallant and
     successful actions the Americans capture Ste Mere Eglise by dawn. This is
     the first French village liberated. In the British sector, many of the
     troops are not landed in their correct places also. The drops are
     successful though and all the British objectives are achieved and where
     necessary held until reinforcements can fight their way in from the
     beaches.

Utah Beach - The Utah assault is carried out by the U.S. 4th Infantry
     Division. The assault force encounters some problems due to rough seas
     but this is partially offset by the landing craft commander who orders
     the craft in closer than normally allowed. The landings occur by mistake
     on the southern sector of the beach and there is little resistance. The
     troops advance quickly inland held up more by the marshy swamp land
     rather than German defenses. By the end of the day 23,250 men have gone
     ashore at Utah; which is described as an unqualified success. Less than
     200 men are listed as dead at Utah beach.

Omaha Beach - The Omaha beach, east of Utah, runs from Pointe de la Percee to
     St Honorine and has been assigned to the U.S. V Corps. The Omaha beach
     terrain is not at all easy. Low hills just inland from the beaches are
     interspersed with heavily defended gullies. The assault begins poorly. To
     begin with the landing craft are loaded way off shore in rough seas. In
     addition, 446 Liberator bombers are sent to attack but only 329 actually
     arrive to carry out the bombing and most of these release their bombs too
     far inland. The rocket craft which are supposed to provide a final
     curtain of fire are largely aiming short. Return fire from the German
     defenses is strong and immediately there are heavy casualties. The first
     wave is totally disorganized. The attack is held at the water's edge in
     the beginning. As subsequent waves of troops occur, some forward momentum
     begins. This slow forward momentum combined with very short range
     bombardment by destroyers is the story for the rest of the day. As dusk
     arrives, some 34,250 American troops are ashore at Omaha but none are
     more than a mile from the beach. More than 1,000 men are dead on Omaha
     beach and many more wounded.

Gold Beach - The Gold beach runs from Arromanches to La Riviere and is
     assigned to the British 50th Infantry Division and the 8th Armored
     Brigade of the XXX Corps. Due to the tides, the landings here and on the
     other British assigned beaches occur later than at Utah and Omaha. This
     means that there is no possibility of meeting a surprised enemy. These
     beaches are heavily fortified and many of the German gun emplacements and
     strongholds survive the initial bombardment. The landings west of Le
     Hamel suffer the most but with the help of the armored brigade are
     quickly cleared. The advance inland occurs fairly rapidly. The designated
     objectives of Bayeux and the road to Caen are not reached however.
     Altogether 25,000 men are landed at Gold beach with 500 men killed.

Juno Beach - Juno beach runs from La Riviere to St Aubin and is assigned to
     the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division and the 2nd Canadian Armored Brigade.
     Due to the late start of landing and the higher tides the underwater
     obstacles are particularly bothersome. Amphibious tanks play an important
     part in silencing strongpoints. Once off the beach the tanks and infantry
     move inland quickly heading for Breteville and Caen. Some 21,400 men go
     ashore at Juno beach on June 6th.

Sword Beach - Sword beach is assigned to the British 3rd Infantry Division,
     27th Armored Brigade and several Marine and Commando units. Sword beach
     runs from Lion sur Mer to the Orne. The amphibious tanks are launched
     from too far offshore but most do reach the shore with no problems. By
     10:00 a.m. most of the exits from the beach are clear after strong
     fighting. Commando units hurry inland to relive the airborne troops
     olong the Orne. The main problem at the beach is one of congestion and
     supporting tanks are unable to make much forward progress. This causes
     the regular infantry to move at a slower pace against the German
     resistance at Hermanville. By late afternoon, Bieville has been reached.
     At that point the counterattack from the German 21st Panzer comes in.
     The counterattack is beaten off but it is able to reach the sea dividing
     the Juno and Sword beaches. It is not strong enough to achieve much
     though at this point. Some 28,850 men are landed at Sword beach. All of
     the day's objectives are not met but the Orne bridges have been seized
     and protected.

As dusk arrives, the fighting dies down along the entire front. The Allies are
too exhausted to think of following up their offensive immediately, while the
Germans have neither the men or equipment to mount a strong counterattack.
>From a tactical standpoint, the Allies have not reached most of their main
targets but D-Day is still a great success. Almost 150,000 have been put
ashore, a tremendous force for the Germans to have to drive back into the sea.

Naval Dispatches
----------------
U.S. destroyer CORRY (DD-463) sunk by mine at Normandy.

U.S. submarine chaser PC-1261 sunk by mine at Normandy.

U.S. LST 375 damaged by collision at Normandy.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  jbd@osbm.state.nc.us
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Jun 1994 14:49:00 CET
From:    Peter de Lange <MIMHCC@RULMVS.LEIDENUNIV.NL>
Subject: Re: TRV:D-Day

> This may seem a bit simple, but can anyone tell me what the "D" in D-Day

Many years ago I learned Decision-Day or as the Yanks said D-Day.
Peter de Lange

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Jun 1994 08:08:04 CDT
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Ref: D-Day Reenactment, AAR

I attended the Chicago D-Day Reenactment this past weekend.  It turned
out to be one of the best and most interesting events.  The crowd was
300,000 strong according to the Chicago Sun-Times, and about 550
reenactors showed up.

Montrose beach had been transformed from a public beach into a mock
Festung Europa.  Mock metal (actually wood) beach obstacles, and mines
were strewn all over the beach, which was about 3-400 meters long.
Behind the beach obstacles was a trench system with bunkers, and machine
gun nests.  The final barrier was a mock bunker constructed out of the
concrete concession stand normally used to sell sodas and food for the
beach.  These bunkers were quite impressive looking.  From water's edge
to the concrete bunkers was about 100 meters.

The reenacting force was one of the best sights I've seen at events---of
the 550 that attended, about 150 were dressed as Germans, 100 as
Commonwealth, and 300 as GI's.

For landing craft, the navy provided 4 landing craft---3 of them LCT's I
believe (about 40 meters from bow to stern, 15 meters from side to
side), and one larger landing craft, about double the size of the LCT's.
Also, two DUKW's landed troops and 1 Original Higgens boat was used.
Compared to the current USN ladning craft, the Higgens boat was tiny and
bobbed about the water quite a bit.  I saw easily how people got sick at
the real D-Day.

Of note and interest was the appearance of a General Eisenhower look
alike.  I did a double take when I first saw him because I thought it
was Eisenhower at first sight.  In the morning he wandered among the
troops wishing us well, and then stood on a reviewing stand as we passed
in review on the way to board landing craft.  His apprearance was uncann
y to the real Eisenhower, and it added an interesting twist to the
event.  He boarded the larger landing craft, and watched the landing
from theLake, to keep his role correct.

Large campsites were set up, and a large number of vehicles were present
and on display.  This included a plethora of Jeeps, several half tracks,
the German 247 (c) armored car, and a Stuart tank.  There were no
Sherman's present.

Aircraft participating included a C-47, B-25, 5 Texan's and 5 P-51's.
It was quite a sight to see the planes flying over our landing craft.
Naval activity included a USN Guided Missle Cruiser off shore firing
it's ceremonial cannon.

end of part 1.  TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Jun 1994 08:50:32 CDT
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Ref: Chicago D-Day Reenactment, part 2

I attended the event with my roomate, Mike.  We were both dressed as
GI's--me a General Staff Captain, and Mike a PFC infantryman.  We formed
up with members of the 30th infantry division (about 5 strong), who were
wearing 29th ID patches.  This unit formed upon the 1st infantry divison
reenactors, who were about 45 strong.

The GI's were organized into 4 companies, each commanded by a captain,
with a designated battalion commander appointed.  The Commonwealth
troops were all organized into one company.  I was in D company.  My
platoon sergeant was a real USA SGM, and the platoon leader was a real
USA SFC, so these guys knew what they were doing and played it to the
hilt.

We formed up for our authenticity, and safety inspection, and then
formed the companies for the pass in review and parade to the landing
crafts.  This was a real hurry up and wait operation.  We formed up at
about 9am and didn;t load landing craft until about 11:15am.  During
this hurry up and wait, I did get to meet several vet's of the USS
Indianapolis (or rather survivors) and Harry Conner, founder of the Shar
khunters, who was leading his group to the seating area.

We arrived at the landing craft after marching about half a mile.  Our
companies were our boat teams, and each company moved neatly onto each
boat.  Once we arrived on the boats, we had to don life
vests--fortunatelymine had the Navy gray vests,and not the orange ones
that other craft had.  It took me about 15 minutes to get my vest
together and on corrects for it was a twisted mess.

We finally got underway about a half hour later.  The Brits had loaded
on the Higgens boat and the Dukw's, and they were bobbing around.  We
had a mild sea state of maybe 2 feet, however it really bounced the
smaller craft around.  It turned out that the USN crews for the ships we
re US Navy Reservists, and they were extremely friendly, and seemed to
having as much fun as we were.

We slowly moved out to the rally point/holding area around the corner
from the beach.  At this time the air activity and naval activity had
already started.  A C-47 was flying over the area and made several
passes---the pyro people had set up some simulated AAA and on one pass
we held our breath as the simulated AAA almost became real AAA when it
went off about 100 years in front of the C-47--fortunately the aircraft
was fine thought.  Next came the B-25--this one appeared to be black.
AS he flew over the flotilla, he waggled his wings twice, and then went
in for his bomb run--the doors of the bomb bay opened as he passed over
us.  He made several passes over us and then disappeared.

At this time the naval bombardment began, with several salvoes from the
cruiser/frigate (I'm an army guy---OK?), with pyro exploding on the
beach in time with the shelling.  We really couldn't see this that well.
Next came the fighters.  First was a 5-6 ship formation of AT-6 Texans.
Mike spotted them first and said--"Look--a group of Zeroes" jokingly and
then they passed over our fleet and into the beach for their run.  They
made several simulated passes (which is all they could do anyway) and
left the area.  Next we saw a 5-6 ship formation (single line) coming
from the lake---they were coming pretty fast---turned out to be 5 P-51's
and a Sea Fury.  They buzzed over us, one waggling his wings, and then
moved in to attack the beach.  They made a second pass over the beach,
flew over us, and disappeared.

At about this time we began to realize what an effort this event had
become---the crowd stretched about 1 mile along the beach and seemed to
be huge.  Later I found out it was estimated to be 300,000.  The Chicago
police had their craft out keeping private boats and ships out of the
landing area, as well as the Coast Guard had smaller craft with swimmers
prepared in case anything went wrong.  Chicago police were out in force
to help keep the beach secure and safe from people wandering around on
it.

We had been "to sea" for about an hour, and we were told to prepare to
landing.  We were told to get down, find a position to brace for shock,
and prepare to land.

end of part 2.  TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Jun 1994 09:21:56 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <sep@TVSS2.COMMNET.EDU>
Subject: D-DAY

The new spin being put on D-Day:

The French got along just fine with the Germans, who were well
educated intellectuals, and treated them well.

Then those @!#$@ Americans came over, invaded France, bombed
the civilian population, and conquored France with their
culture, which was neither wanted nor appreciated.

I gleaned this from watching CBS news reports, and CNN reports
over the weekend.

Historic revisionism.

I for one, am !@#$%@ glad that the Nazi (I said Nazi, not german)
agenda was stopped when it was. I for one am grateful for those
who served, and owe them. I for one am offended by this new spin
on D-day, and WW-II in general.

NExt thing, we'll hear is that D-day, like the holocaust, 'never
happened'
                                                        :-(Steve

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - sep@trctc.commnet.edu |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Jun 1994 16:33:49 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVS2.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: TRV: D-Day & USS George Washington

On Mon, 6 Jun 1994, Stephen Baldwin wrote:

> Anyway, the USS George Washington was described as the largest warship
> in the world, and it certainly is a most impressive and awe-inspiring
> piece of apparatus. (The RN in comparison has 3 rowing boats
> Ark Royal, Illustrious, Invincible) with hand-powered paper jets...]
>
> I always thought the USS Nimitz took the top spot in the "biggest in
> the world" competition. I can remember that ship anchored in the Solent

There are eight carriers of the 'Nimitz' class:  CVN-68 Nimitz, CVN-69
Dwight D. Eisenhower, CVN-70 Carl Vinson, CVN-71 Theodore Roosevelt,
CVN-72 Abraham Lincoln, CVN-73 George Washington, CVN-74 John Stennis, and
CVN-75 United States. The latter two are still under construction, I
think. I assume that they all have (approximately) the same size.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Jun 1994 09:41:14 CDT
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Ref: Chicago D-Day reenactment, part 3

The engine of the LCT roared and we were underway towards the beach---I
was grabbing anything I could hold onto because the USN types said when
they had practiced the landing the day before they had hit pretty hard.
about 100 yards out we were told to remove our life jackets and toss
them in the middle of the craft.  The craft began touching bottom quite
gentily--I expected to roll when we hit but it wasn't difficult at all
to keep my balance.  The engine of the craft pushed harder to get us
further ashore.  A swimmer was placed near the ramp to help anybody if a
problem developed.  The ramp dropped and 75 of us began leaving the
craft.  I was about 2/3 the way back, and when I stood up I realized my
map case had come unsnapped, and spent about 1/3 of the walking out of
the craft getting that straightened out.  The movement out of the craft
was suprisingly orderly and efficient.

Once I hit the ramp I could see we were on the northern side of the
beach--I went down the right side (I'm an army guy---OK?) and stepped
off into about 3 1/2' of water.  My roomate Mike wa right behind me,
although the last time I saw him in the vent was going off the ramp.  I
grabbed the ramp cable for support,as did about everyone else in front o
f me did.  When I got in the water I realized I the cable was covered in
a black grease which now made for a black hand.  I looked at it for a
second and then moved on.  We were the first wave.

We waded ashore, our feet weighing a ton, and I went down as soon as I
hit dry sand, however my feet were still in the water.  I was inside the
first obstacle belt, crawled up to the metal I-bean obstacle.  The crowd
was about 20 feet to my right, and you could hear them yelling.  I
cralwed up about 20 meters to get into a small hole with another guy to
get some cover--as I looked over the beach, it seemed like a mass of
humanity was crawling, slithering, and laying still on the beach.  I
looked around and didn't recognize a single person I was with on the
craft.

After about 5 minutes, I crawled over to an obstacle and realized that
one of the guys in my squad was there.  Pat was laying there not moving.
We had had it to the last line of obstacles.  Occasionally a few GI's
would do a mad dash for the trenches and get cut down---a cheer would
rise from the crowd when they went up and stopped just as suddenly as
they hit the sand dead.  I looked at Pat and saw a dead GI about 10
yards out, and suggested that we try to crawl and use him as cover.  Pat
agreed and we began crawling up there.  Along the way, a moved a "dead"
guy's arm out of the way, and a helmet that had fallen off of someone,
and we crawled up there.

Upon reaching this position, I fired a few shots, and spotted the next
place to go to---it looked like there was a trench about another 15
yards out, so we began crawling towards that---when we got closer we
realized it looked like a trench but it wasonly about 3" deep.  We
crawled up to that point.

 Shortly after that some more GI's made it up to where we were.  They
decided to try to make it into the trench line, which was about 20 yards
in front of us.  About 5 of them got up and ran for it, only to get cut
down about 5 yards from the trench.  It looked like we could make it
into the trench if we tried again.  I looked around and the second wave
was landing.  There were about 4 or 5 of us who then made an attempt
to get into the trenches, and we made it to the berm in front and I was
about half way into them when I realized they were full of Germans, and
a fusilade of fire broke out in our direction.  There was no way to
survive this and I fell over backwards dead.  This ended my
participation in D-Day.  Fortunately I fell where I could watch the
second wave coming in.  The larger landing craft seemed to be having
trouble getting it's troops off.

What was happening in the second wave was a drama in itself.  The larger
craft couldn;t get that close to shore, and the first two men off the
craft went in under their heads in about 6-7 feet of water.  I heard
people say they had their rifles over their head-- one started walking
towards shore and got his head above water shortly after that--the other
one paniced and started trying to swim.  They had to pull him back onto
the landing craft--he lost both his helmet and his M-1 Garand in the wat
er.  They got the craft in a little closer and dropped them in about 5
feet of water.

By the time this happened, the defenses were beginning to fall apart--he
had guys in the trench line.  I watched some engineers set up a
Bangalore torpedo sections, and then hook the wire up.  The wire runner
then went running back to an obstacle, however the wire came undone, and
someone had to bring it and reconnect it.  I watched the second wave
cross the beach and move into the trench line.  At about that time,
probably 30-45 minutes after we landed the entire affair was over, and
we were told to stop firing.

I stood up and realized what a mess I was.  I had sand everywhere, to
include caked on my face, in my mouth, ears, and many other places too
numerable to mention.  My nice officer's Arrow original WWII short is
probably ruined from the grease from the ladning craft chain.  My hand
was caked with the black grease, as well as sand stuck to it.  My patns
had just about dried by then, but they were caked with sand as well.

 As happens at all reenactments the kids wanted spent brass from our
blanks, and it turned into quite the crowd control problem.  The crowd
tried to make it onto the beach from the lake side between the obstacle
belt and the lake--and they were about 30 yards in before they police
got it under control, for there was unexploded blanks and pyro still on
the beach.  The little kids were begging for brass, so I went around and
picked some up and handed it to some very thanksfull kids.  It seemed
like some were desperate for brass, and would dart onto the beach past t
he police line.  Reeactors were sort of the second line of defence and
we had to chase them off the beach.  The situation was getting kind of
unruley--we had gals in bikini's wanting their pictures taken with
reenactors, and people getting really pushy.  CPD got a mounted police
officer who started pushing the crowd back and finally got them back in
line.

We formed up on the beach and marched off to head to the campsites.  The
crowd had pressed near the concrete bunkers to the point there was only
about a 5' wide path, and as we marched through we received cheers,
applause and high fives.  I felt kinda guilty receiving this for it was
really meant for the vet's, and that was why we did the event.

I went back to the campsite, socialized a bit, cleaned more sand off
of me, talked to the crowd, cleaned sand off of me, packed my gear,
cleaned sand off of me, and cleaned sand off of me.  I had 1" in my
pants pockets.  I wondered why I could barely run why I got up to take
the trench---between this and the water explained why I had gained so
much weight.

The crowd was in the campsite area asking lots of questions, and
reencators were sharing thir war stories with each other.  My "widow"
was getting kind of bored, having sat for three hours before we landed,
and wanted to leave so we packed up and departed at about 2:30.

end of part 3.  TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Jun 1994 16:12:35 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <smb@NETMGRS.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: TRV: D-Day & USS George Washington

Dear All,
Thanks for the info re Nimitz class carriers.
Interesting stuff. *Eight* carriers of this size...that is staggering...

steve baldwin
smb@netmgrs.co.uk

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Jun 1994 10:44:15 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET>
Subject: Re: D-DAY

What more can you expect from CNN?  They have their own view of both
history and current events, which to my mind frequently has little
relationship to reality.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Jun 1994 11:59:10 EDT
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <hb9388@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: ARC: German Airborne Operations

An outstanding little text!

It has been reprinted and is available from the Center for Military History.
(thru US GPO).

I highly recommend any of the German Report series to get a look at how the
Germans viewed operations in WWII.

Barry

Barrett F. Lowe               RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, West Point  (e-mail:  hb9388%usma6@trotter.usma.edu)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Jun 1994 11:09:04 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: John Lundstrom:  Request for your 22Jun41 Sov. O/B (fwd)

Forwarded message:
>From owner-consim-l@VM.UCS.UALBERTA.CA Mon Jun  6 11:04 CDT 1994
Message-Id: <199406061604.AA17523@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu>
Date:         Mon, 6 Jun 1994 10:59:10 -0500
Reply-To: Conflict simulation Games <CONSIM-L@UALTAVM.BITNET>
Sender: Conflict simulation Games <CONSIM-L@UALTAVM.BITNET>
From: "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc>
Subject:      John Lundstrom:  Request for your 22Jun41 Sov. O/B
To: Multiple recipients of list CONSIM-L <CONSIM-L@UALTAVM.BITNET>
In-Reply-To:  <199406030020.AA13076@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu> from "Andrew or Patti
              Webber" at Jun 2, 94 02:47:03 pm
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 805

John,

     Years ago, with the help of your Ukrainian colleague there
at the Milwaukee Public Museum as I remember, you published in
Don Lowry's PANZERFAUST an *excellent* Soviet 22Jun41 O/B which
I *still* find accurate/useful in some details.  I remember you
and I were *both* exasperated with the typos in the article.

     Would you mind putting it on CONSIM-L (before I go off)?

     I would expect there to be enough changes that there
shouldn't be any copyright questions (even if Don is still
alive, after the Guidon bankruptcy?/debacle).

     And what happened to your Ukrainian friend?  Did he live
to see the Soviet Empire's breakup?

     Have you seen Jim Goff's O/B in the back of Bryan Fugate's
Barbarossa book?  There is also Poirier's, but that has been
criticized.

Lou Coatney, WIU

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Jun 1994 11:21:22 CDT
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Ref: Chicago D-Day reenactment, part 4

Looking back on it--several things became very clear to me.

The first was the mass of people involved---we landed about 400 on the
beach, and it was a mass of humanity.  It was impressive while marching
to our landing craft to looks back and see a WWII Battalion on parade.
It was pretty awe inspiring.

The second was the coordination that happened to pull the event off.
Between the aircraft, navy, ships, reenactors, pyro, CPD, Coast
Guard--it was impresive it went as well as it did.

The crowd was truly excited and interested in the event--when you have
almost 1/3 of a million people show up to watch, I think maybe we did a
lot to educate people about WWII and D-Day.  The crowd wasn;t exactly
sure how to handle the killing involved, so they cheered like it was a
football game or something.  I hope that they went away thinking it was
more than just a football game, and that this was no game.  Even if some
just barely understood what happened, I think they went away with a
greater sense of what happened.  It was wonderful to feel the patriotism
exhibited by the crowd, and the thanks and praise we recieved, however
it was misguided towards us.  People like John Ausland should have been
receiving the praise, not us.

Several things struck me about the event and things I've read about it.

-I saw how easy it was for people to drown---the people on the larger
LCT almost had this happen in front of their eyes--without the
safeguards there was a distinct possibility of a real drowning to have
occurred.  -the fragility of the higgens boat--after the event it sprung
a leak and had to be rescued by the USN.  This particular craft is going
to the Imperial War Museum soon to be on display, so look for it over
there.  -the absolute and utter confusion when we hit the beach.  I saw
one member of my squad from the time we left the landing craft until the
end of the event--Ididn;t even see my "buddy" until we were in the
campsite.  The chain of command ceased to exist, and any actions were
taken by small groups of people from different sections and squads who
got together and decided to do something.  Rank ceased to exist on the
beach.  -the absolute vulnerability on the beach---there was nothing to
hide behind.  -the difficulty of moving on the beach--when I finally did
get up to run, after crawling 75 meters or so in the sand, I was so
heavy with sand and water plus my gear I took about 4 steps stumbling
before I was able to actually get my balance, and then it was strained.
-how much the smaller craft bobbed around the water---I see why guys got
seasick.  -the beauty of the M-1 Garand--my garand was full of sand and
kept functioning flawlessly--It is going into the bathtub tonight to get
cleaned--that's how dirty it is.  -the absolute filth I was covered with
by the end of the event--I got undressed in the bathtub in the hotel, an
d it looked like the bottom of the tub was a beach. -the most important
lesson I learned is DON'T GRAB THE CABLE ON THE LANDING CRAFT--I've stil
l got some small traces of grease on my hand today--which scrubbing
about 4 times didn't remove.

If any of you have access to the Chicago Tribune and SunTimes from
Sunday, 5 June, look for them for we are on the cover of both of them.
My Landing Craft #502 is on the cover.  I don;t know if it was covered
live on Channel 9 like I had heard, but there was media out the yazoo,
to include to helicopters hovering over the battle site.

I felt fortunate to have participated.  The most important thing I
learned is that I would never want to participate in such an event for
real.  We had enough things go wrong, and add in enemy fire, and it is a
formula for disaster.  It gave me respect for D-Day on a much higher
level and made me appreciate the sacrifice and effort even more than
I did before.

My film should be ready at the end of the this week (all B&W) and I
should have some good images of the event.

TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Jun 1994 13:12:09 -0400
From:    Martha Wheless <lingua@CCPO.ODU.EDU>
Subject: MEDIA: D-Day/American Experience

Hello all,
Did anyone tape the D-Day show that was on PBS (American Experience)?
If so, could I send a tape and get a copy.  I missed the show,
we stayed too long at the church fair.  I'll gladly pay for all
postage and expenses.

Thanks in advance.

Regards on D-Day,
Martha Wheless
lingua@ccpo.odu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Jun 1994 00:33:38 +0700
From:    "Peter E. Beal" <bealp@MORAKOT.NECTEC.OR.TH>
Subject: Re: U.S. Army Manuals

The US Army published manuals on both friendly (I think) and enemy forces
during WWII.  The number of the that covering Germany forces was TM-450E
or 451E.  I think the one on the Russian forces was TM-480.

Copies of both which I know were held by the NYPL disappeared years ago.
Were they ever reprinted, either by the government or privately and, if
so, by whom?  And sold at what price?

Any help appreciated.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Jun 1994 13:53:32 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>
Subject: Re: D-DAY

On Mon, 6 Jun 1994, Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs. wrote: > The new
spin being put on D-Day: > The French got along just fine with the
Germans, who were well > educated intellectuals, and treated them well. >
Then those @!#$@ Americans came over, invaded France, bombed

That reminds me of Louis Hudon, a New Hampshireman of French-Canadian
extraction, telling how he marched across Europe in 1944-45: "The
Americans looked into the French bathrooms and thought, My God, these
people *stand up* to do their business! What animals! So they treated the
French like we'd just conquered them. Then we got to Germany, and guess
what? *Flush toilets just like home!* So we treated the Germans like
friends."

But the revisionism that really bothers me is the phrase: "Nazi-occupied
France." I heard that a dozen times this morning on the radio. You get the
impression, from National Public Radio, that 150 divisions of aliens from
the Planet Nazi landed on Europe in 1939 and occupied it. Then, except for
a few oddballs like Martin Bormann, they got back in their spaceships in
July 1945 and were never seen again.

My 2 centimes' worth :-)

(And how about that 82-yr-old paratrooper who jumped on Normandy
yesterday? Wow! Can you imagine what it was like, standing in the door of
a DC-3 50 years later?)

dan

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Jun 1994 15:52:55 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>
Subject: "Why D-Day Lives"

This story from today's Wall St Journal is long but worth the read. The
author is Dorothy Rabinowitz

  NORMANDY -- ". . . Gentlemen in England now a-bed shall think themselves
accursed they were not here."
  The British soldier who had been moved to recite these lines from "Henry
V" while being carried toward the invasion beaches on June 6, 1944, would
years later recall the dawn of D-Day, as the fantastic armada heading
toward the enemy stood revealed in the morning light.
  For all his forebodings and those of his comrades, this witness wrote,
there was no suppressing the excitement -- the recognition, tinged with
pride, that one was a participant in an event that would live in history.
Still, it is a question whether even someone with so acute a sense of
occasion could have anticipated the extraordinary drama and symbolism that
would attach to D-Day 50 years later.
  That drama and symbolism have, to be sure, reached a critical mass on
this anniversary -- but it is also a fact that, as historic battles go,
this one has scarcely languished in neglect over the years. To understand
why requires only looking at a few of its dramatic components (putting
aside for a moment the moral and political ones): the buildup, the plan so
intricate and daring, the generals, the weather, the Mulberry portable
harbors conceived by an Allied strategist while lying in his bathtub, and
above all the phenomenal feats of deception through which the Germans were
gulled into deploying armies where no invader would land.
  This is, as they say, some story. Anyone who doubts it should note the
uncharacteristic absorption in the historical details evidenced by the 20-
and 30-something TV publicists promoting the D-Day programs. Ten years
ago, on the 40th anniversary, which also brought forth huge commemorative
assemblages and visits to Omaha Beach by world leaders, it was said that
this would have to be the great D-Day remembrance because the veterans of
Omaha and Utah were aging and there might not b e terribly many around for
the 50th anniversary. Those prognosticators should see what is going on
here in Europe. The former invaders of Normandy -- many of them looking
extremely hale and hearty and on occasion still trim enough to wear their
old uniforms -- have re-entered in numbers far exceeding those of 10 years
ago.
  Today, in a huge ceremony, hundreds of thousands of Americans, British,
Canadian and other Allied veterans will be gathered on Omaha Beach for
tributes from heads of government. Before their arrival in France, large
numbers of the former servicemen last week journeyed to the English port
towns where they had been billeted prior to the invasion.
  They were trailed by a substantial army of reporters and camera crews
who found indeed plenty to record.
  Weymouth, from which so many American troops departed for the shores of
Normandy -- particularly the First Infantry Division (the "Big Red One")
-- is festooned now with the Union Jack and Stars and Stripes. Everywhere
on the beaches assorted fresh-faced young American and British servicemen
stand by, near some tank display or other, and watch quietly as busloads
of the older Americans come and go.
  One bus carrying members of the First Division -- which stormed Omaha
Beach at H-hour -- rolls in on a sun-filled day. A military parade has
just ended and the strains of marching music are still to be heard as the
passengers look around for the war memorial where they are to lay a
wreath.
  Among the British vacationers in this pleasant, slightly garish, holiday
town is a handsome man, perhaps 40, who has paused near the bus with the
First Infantry Division sign on it to explain who these visitors are to
his preteen daughters. After the veterans lay their wreath, the father
stands his girls close by as he reads aloud, slowly, every word of the
inscription to the Americans killed in the invasion. He explains later
that since the family had previously taken a holiday in a nearby town, he
feels guilty ab. out not making the trip before now to educate his
daughters about the meaning of this memorial. He hopes they will learn
something from all the D-Day talk and ceremonies. It concerns him, he
explains, that his daughters never ask about such things on their own.
  If D-Day ceremonies could do the trick, this father's concerns would be
over -- for everywhere there are ceremonies, small and large. The next
morning, as a band strikes up, a wet wind blasts the crowd gathered
bravely outside the town theater for what is described as a "train-naming
ceremony." No one can get quite clear the full details of the train to be
christened -- except for the central fact that it is to be called the
Omaha-something. Inside the cavernous theater, which is a center for D-Day
visitors and displays -- including a somber and very large quantity of
photographs and death notices of town boys killed in World War II --
locals and honored guests mill about.
  Most notable among the locals is a grizzled man who goes from group to
group searching for Americans from the First Division. A lecturer at a
local college, he hopes to find and say thanks to the Americans who
befriended his mother during the war. It is a story that he has clearly
heard all his life, one that tells how his mother, burdened with a
seriously infirm small child and with little money and food in a time of
strict rationing, survived thanks to the Americans who helped out with
food and medical attention. He has no names but hopes by asking to get
clues as to who those benefactors were.
  The search is made no easier by the fact that numerous D-Day veterans
traveling with the First Division today in fact come from another outfit
-- namely the 147th Engineers, Combat Infantry Division. Their job was to
use explosives to clear exits from the beaches. The trouble was, explains
Robert Baldwin, a genial white-haired man nearing 80 who had once been
Maj. Baldwin, the troops kept pouring in too fast. "Too fast! We would
have had to b. low them up, too. They kept on coming. There was no room to
do the work." The quietest of the group, his voice grows hard and urgent
for a moment -- as though that desperate quandary so long ago is again his
to solve. Did he, himself, have any close calls? He waves the question off
until, with a laugh, he lifts a mass of hair covering a huge scar from
shrapnel running across his skull. "That close enough for you?" inquires
the major in the kindliest of voices.
  Present in the group, as well, is retired policeman Dan Bowman, who had,
as a member of the 82nd Airborne Division, parachuted into Normandy the
night before the landings. He is, like the majority of the veterans here,
most at ease recalling what he considers a light moment, i.e., how he and
his buddy, starving for food sometime after the drop, competed with the
Germans in lobbing grenades to frighten a farmer's pig into range of their
guns. The Americans won. Mr. Bowman can also be eloquent, nevertheless, on
the uses of piano wire as a deadly weapon, if need be -- a weapon he
remembers and wishes never to think about.
  Soon they will all be on their way to Normandy, where others who made
the D-Day landings are already settled in. Among these is former First
Sgt. Leonard G. Lomell, acting platoon leader in D Company, Second Ranger
Battalion. A retired lawyer, Mr. Lomell and his staff sergeant, Jack Kuhn,
were among the Rangers who survived the climb up the cliffs of Pointe du
Hoc to achieve their prime mission -- the destruction of the huge German
guns aimed at the beaches.
  For finding the guns, which had been moved, and destroying them with
thermite grenades while Sgt. Kuhn covered him, First Sgt. Lomell received
the Distinguished Service Cross and a battlefield promotion. Sgt. Kuhn,
who would go on to become police chief of Altoona, Pa., would for other
actions beyond the call of duty receive the Silver Star. "We had made a
vow to the death to succeed in our mission," Mr. Lomell matter-of-factly
notes. . "We knew that many would die but also that one of us at least
would survive and get the job done."
  It is the kind of comment that might nowadays sound unconvincing --
except from such men as these. These words are, in that sense, similar to
those spoken by a British naval officer, Adm. Edward Gueritz, who said 10
years ago: "I thought, if I were to die in the attack on Normandy, then it
would be a good way for it all to end."
  To hear these men talk is to grasp how central the experience of D-Day
has been in the lives of those who arrived on the beaches that sixth of
June, 1944 -- and perhaps to grasp as well something of the reason the
world's memory of this event has had so enduring a life.

(The story is illustrated by break-your-heart drawings of Sgt Kuhn and Lt
Lomell then and now.)


            - Dan      <dan.ford@unh.edu>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Jun 1994 16:46:25 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <sep@TVSS2.COMMNET.EDU>
Subject: Re: D-DAY

>On Mon, 6 Jun 1994, Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs. wrote: > The new
>spin being put on D-Day: > The French got along just fine with the
>Germans, who were well > educated intellectuals, and treated them well. >
>Then those @!#$@ Americans came over, invaded France, bombed

Dan Ford, world renowned author and historian replied;
>That reminds me of Louis Hudon, a New Hampshireman of French-Canadian
>extraction, telling how he marched across Europe in 1944-45: "The

>But the revisionism that really bothers me is the phrase: "Nazi-occupied
>France." I heard that a dozen times this morning on the radio. You get the

>(And how about that 82-yr-old paratrooper who jumped on Normandy
>yesterday? Wow! Can you imagine what it was like, standing in the door of
>a DC-3 50 years later?)

I don't know about anybody else, but my hat's off to those guys. I don't
drink enough to get on a plane at all, let alone jump out of it. When
you add those guys jumping out into enemy territory, in the dark!

Now they're doing it at 80+ years. Such moxie!

Actually those WERE aliens. I call to mind seemingly related postings from
this very list: "Foo fighters, actually alien spaceships", mysterious
crew dissapearances in England (Plane landing sans crew) in which there
HAD to be unseen forces at work, The recent finding of Hitler's body,
in Argentina, I know there were more. UNRELATED HUH? ;-)

Actually they are all in Hangar 18, along with the crew of the USS Eldridge.
Every one.

Elvis too!

All in all, how can any of us really appreciate the events of 50 years ago?
What we all owe those guys! Geez, thanx fellas. I know I cannot really
understand what it was all like, but some of us younger types actually
appreciate the freedoms we have, thanx to youse guys.
                                                        :-)Steve
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - sep@trctc.commnet.edu |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Jun 1994 17:45:35 -0400
From:    "Mr. Scott Hannon" <hannon@UMBC.EDU>
Subject: Re: U.S. Army Manuals

> The US Army published manuals on both friendly ... and enemy forces
> during WWII...Were they ever reprinted

The Japanese handbook was republished around 2-3 years ago...it's still
widely available; I think I saw it in the current Barnes&Noble catlog
for around $20. I suspect its be on its way out of print, so get it
soon if you want it.

The German handbook was re-published about a year before the Japanese
handbook; I think by Lousianna State University Press. I think it is
still available...around $35.

The other handbooks are a lot harder to find. Valour Press/Game Marketing
republished (in a different format) the handbooks on Italian and south
eastern European forces (Bulgarian/Romanian/Hungarian). I know some of
these are out of print...perhaps all.

Greenhill Press/Brassey's republished the handbook on British forces
(the 1942 edition) about 3 years ago. It seem to still be available; price
is about $35. IMO this volume is significantly weaker than the German and
Japanese handbooks.

These are the only ones I know of. I don't think the US GPO ever bothered
to re-issue them. But as they were originally US Gov't publications, they
are "public domain" works and are not copyrighted.

Scott.
Scott Hannon, Mon Jun 6 1994 (hannon@umbc.edu)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Jun 1994 17:24:43 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Black Widow Squadrons and CO's

Hello, Emmanuel, Peter, Aldo and others!

Here goes with the final installment on the P-61 saga.

                    425th NFS

CO's- Capt Leon G. Lewis
           Russell Glasser
           Morris T. McDonald

1st P-61 received- 15 Jun 1944

1st enemy aircraft destroyed by P-61 crew: 5 Aug 1944 (V-1); 24 Dec
1944 (manned enemy aircraft)

Squadron total enemy aircraft destroyed by P-61 crew: 10 manned; 4 V-
1s


                 426th NFS

CO's- Major William C. Hellriegel

1st p-61 received- 25 Sep 1944

1st enemy aircraft destroyed by P-61 crew: 29 Oct 1944

Squadron total enemy aircraft destroyed by P-61 crew: 5



                    427th NFS

CO's- Lt-Col James S. Michael
      Major Thomas N. Wilson
            Edwin J. Witzenburger

1st P-61 received: Mid-Aug 1944

1st enemy aircraft destroyed by P-61 crew: 0

Squadron total enemy aircraft destroyed by P-61 crew: 0


                    547th NFS

CO's- Lt-Col William C. Odell
      Capt William C. Behnke

1st P-61 received: 7 Oct 1944

1st enemy aircraft destroyed by P-61 crew: 25 Dec 1944

Squadron total enemy aircraft destroyed by P-61 crew: 6


                    548th NFS

CO's- Major Robert D. Curtis


1st P-61 received: Sep 1944

1st enemy aircraft destroyed by P-61 crew: 22 Jun 1945

Squadron total enemy aircraft destroyed by P-61 crew: 5



                 549th NFS

CO's- Major Joseph E. Payne
      Capt  William R. Charlesworth


1st P-61 received: Oct 1944

1st enemy aircraft destroyed by P-61 crew: 23 Jun 1944

Squadron total enemy aircraft destroyed by P-61 crew: 1


                550th NFS

CO's- Major Robert A. Tyler

1st P-61 received: 6 Jan 1945

1st enemy aircraft destroyed by P-61 crew: 0

Squadron total enemy aircraft destroyed by P-61 crew: 0


                Black Widow Aces

Lt. Hermann E. Ernst
Major Carroll C. Smith-8 (top scoring)
Lt. Eugene D. Axtell
Lt. Robert F. Graham
Lt. Robert O. Elmore


Hope this has been of interest. If there are any more questions about
this, please advise.

All the best.

Terry





Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Jun 1994 17:58:35 -0500
From:    mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: John's 22 Jun 41 Sov. O/B

John,

     Believe me, it is *still* worthwhile.  :-)

     Maybe we could start a revised/standardized Soviet 22Jun41
O/B file for CONSIM-L and WWII-L (and Byrd).

     Come onnnnnnnnn, John.  :-)

Lou

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Jun 1994 15:42:48 CST
From:    PATRICIA HERRLING <PHERRLING@VMS2.MACC.WISC.EDU>
Subject: The "D" in D-Day

I read an article recently that said the "D" didn't stand for anything. It
is simply a military designation for something happening on that day...as in
it's going to happen on C-Day, etc. Can anyone more knowledgeably verify
this?

Patricia Herrling
Patricia Herrling
University of Wisconsin-Madison  Steenbock Memorial Library
Information Services Librarian   550 Babcock Dr. Madison, WI 53706
PHerrling@wiscmaac.bitnet        (608)263-6373
PHerrling@macc.wisc.edu          Plant Pathology Library
                                 1630 Linden Dr. Madison, WI 53706
                                 (608)262-8698

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Jun 1994 18:24:29 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: ARC: FTP SITES (LONG)

Below is a general listing of ftp sites that may be of interest to the list.
(I have not rearranged the list in any way, despite the order they are
in. It's just the way I got it :-). The list is long, but with members in
28 countries on this list I hope everyone will find something close.

Larry J

Message-Id: <9406031045.AA24869@hubbard.ph.kcl.ac.uk>
X-Mailer: Glen_Segell_Mailer 2.3 BETA
X-Personal_Name:
Subject: FTP SITES - Main Directory
Reply-To: war-research-sources@mailbase.ac.uk


     _________________________________________________________________

Host byrd.mu.wvnet.edu

     * Location: /pub/history
          + DIRECTORY drwxrwxr-x 512 May 25 22:52 military


     _________________________________________________________________

Host mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu

     * Location: /pub/faq/usenet-by-hierarchy/rec/aviation
          + DIRECTORY drwxr-xr-x 1024 Apr 25 23:54 military
     * Location: /pub/faq/usenet-by-hierarchy/alt
          + DIRECTORY drwxr-xr-x 1024 Apr 25 17:47 military


     _________________________________________________________________

Host nysernet.org

     * Location: /israel/aliyah-info
          + DIRECTORY drwxr-xr-x 512 Apr 19 14:20 military


     _________________________________________________________________

Host byrd.mu.wvnet.edu

     * Location: /pub/history/military/nato
          + DIRECTORY drwxrwxr-x 512 Apr 8 12:22 military


     _________________________________________________________________

Host unix.hensa.ac.uk

     * Location: /pub/uunet/doc/literary/obi/History
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------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Jun 1994 16:59:00 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: "Why D-Day Lives"

Tanks for your post, Dan...
        For me, the most moving moments of today's D-Day ceremonies began
when that British regimental sergeant major saluted Queen Elizabeth II, then
turned and shouted orders, by the riiiiight -- quiiiiik *march*!"
        Ten thousand elderly men, British veterans of the Invasion, backs
still straight, arms swinging high -- all in step -- marched by in column
of three, eye's left, saluting their Queen.  "Pack Up Your Troubles" being
sung in the background by the crowd. I tell you... there was not a dry
eye in this house.
Regards   --  Sidney Allinson, ex-RAF, Victoria, British Columbia.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Jun 1994 17:01:55 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: D-DAY

Dan...
        "... aliens from Planet Nazi...."
*Marvellous* line.   :-)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Jun 1994 19:24:57 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET>
Subject: E-mail to Scotland

Can anybody tell me what list would be most productive to contact someone
in Scotland?  Specifically Kilmarnock Ayrshire.

Thank you.


  =========================================================================
  | DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
  |                                  | Computers in Business & Education. |
  | Recently returned from my second | Education:  Curriculum development.|
  |   extended stay in Prague.       |    International Education, TEFL.  |
  | Working on second book about     | Central Europe:  Post revolution   |
  |   Prague and new Czech Republic. |    economic, social, political     |
  |                                  |    problems and opportunities.     |
  |                                  |  B-25 in WWII.                     |
  | E-Mail:                          | Free lance writing and editing.    |
  |   USA:  BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET    | Stamp collecting.                  |
  =========================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Jun 1994 17:25:24 EDT
From:    GERMAN 101/102 LAB <GLAB@SLUMUS.BITNET>
Subject: Re[2]: ARC: German Airborne Operations

IRT the German operations manual, does anyone know whether any of these
or other WWII documents are in the original language (German)?

Any information on original language documents will be sincerely
appreciated!

Dale Lally
St. Lawrence University

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Jun 1994 21:15:55 EDT
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor,
         Marist Coll" <JZML@MARISTB.BITNET>
Subject: Re: TRV: D-Day & USS George Washington

>piece of apparatus. (The RN in comparison has 3 rowing boats
>Ark Royal, Illustrious, Invincible) with hand-powered paper jets...]
>
>
>steve baldwin

But Steve...you folks have the best names for your ships...
HMS Courageous
HMS Venomous
HMS Revenge
HMS Victorious
HMS Renown

....while we name ours after states (such as USS New Jersey, or as they
say it in this area "New Joisey"!) Regards-

Jonah Triebwasser
Adjunct Instructor
Marist College
Dyson Building (Adult Education)
Poughkeepsie, New York12601
Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
E-Mail: jzml@maristb.marist.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Jun 1994 21:23:34 EDT
From:    JohnS426@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: D-DAY

Speaking of George's comment on CNN's own take on affairs - I happened to see
the 60min show last night on relation of Ultra to D day and they had to put
in the business about the bombing raid on Coventry. I thought the idea that
Churchill purposely did not warn Coventry of a pending raid to preserve Ultra
was pretty much relegated to myth by now.  Am I wrong?
John Sloan
johns426@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Jun 1994 21:29:37 EDT
From:    JohnS426@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: U.S. Army Manuals

HI all
It turns out that I reprinted 1000 copies of the TM on the Soviet army and
sold them out long ago. It is a massive document. Now with industrial
strength xerox machines it would be cheaper to make copies one at a time as
required rather than offset printing a batch. That was expensive even in the
late 1970's.  I have the camera ready photos for offset but have not found a
publisher interested and I am not about to reprint it again.  But for those
really interested in a good xerox, I can be persuaded:)  :)
Best wishes to all
John Sloan
johns426@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Jun 1994 21:42:52 EDT
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor,
         Marist Coll" <JZML@MARISTB.BITNET>
Subject: Re[2]: D-DAY

>Speaking of George's comment on CNN's own take on affairs - I happened to see
>the 60min show last night on relation of Ultra to D day and they had to put
>in the business about the bombing raid on Coventry. I thought the idea that
>Churchill purposely did not warn Coventry of a pending raid to preserve Ultra
>was pretty much relegated to myth by now.  Am I wrong?
>John Sloan
>johns426@aol.com

John- The late Sir John Colville, Churchill's Private Secretary
during WWII, wrote in his book "Winston Churchill and His Inner
Circle" that the only thing Churchill knew was that there was going to
be a major air operation which the Germans referred to as "Moonlight
Sonata" but did not know where it would be. Churchill assumed that the
target would be London. As Colville put it "There is not even the
thinnest shred of truth in [the] story of Coventry."

Jonah Triebwasser
Adjunct Instructor
Marist College
Dyson Building (Adult Education)
Poughkeepsie, New York12601
Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
E-Mail: jzml@maristb.marist.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Jun 1994 19:41:59 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: D-DAY

Yes, John, that Churchill/Coventry silliness has been relegated to
myth -- Mith Jane Fonda-Turner.  :-)

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 5 Jun 1994 to 6 Jun 1994
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 38 messages totalling 1364 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. D-DAY (3)
  2. INF: USN Chronology 06-07-94
  3. [INF] USAAF 7 JUN 44
  4. Philadelphia Experiment (5)
  5. INF: 50 Years Ago Today - 07-JUN-1944
  6. TRV: D-Day & USS George Washington (3)
  7. New Joisey
  8. Command confirmation request (5459C1)
  9. E-mail to Scotland
 10. MISC:  New Joisy (2)
 11. INFO ME 410
 12. World War II French humor <translated> (2)
 13. Could the Soviets alone have beaten the Nazis? (3)
 14. MEDIA: Video tapes
 15. Re[2]: ARC: German Airborne Operations
 16. Re[2]: D-DAY (2)
 17. U.S. Army Manuals
 18. Re[2]: TRV: D-Day & USS George Washington
 19. MEDIA: D-Day Chronology
 20. MEDIA:D-DAY Jump
 21. USS Arkansas (2)
 22. MEDIA:D-Day Ranger Reclimb
 23. Cossack (Destroyer)
 24. MEDIA: NOST: Why We Fight!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 6 Jun 1994 22:25:18 -0700
From:    Terry Yeung <terryy@CRL.COM>
Subject: Re: D-DAY

>
> Yes, John, that Churchill/Coventry silliness has been relegated to
> myth -- Mith Jane Fonda-Turner.  :-)

        One thing I remember from watching that piece was that the story
they aired was actually made 20 years ago and at that time I'm not sure if
this Coventry business was very clear at the time.  I for the longest time
had heard this story and had not heard anything to the contrary till reading
this list.  I guess that's what makes me like this list so much, you learn
something new everyday. :)

--
Terry Yeung                             \ Internet: terryy@crl.com
Anime Expo '94 Registration Supervisor   \ Expo: reg@anime-expo.org

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Jun 1994 01:22:25 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 06-07-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
06/07 Wed. Construction of artificial harbors and sheltered
           anchorages from sunken blockships and concrete
           caissons begins off Normandy beachheads.
           United States Naval Advanced Base, Hollandia, New
           Guinea, is established.
            United States naval vessels sunk:
             Submarine GUDGEON (SS-211), Pacific Ocean area,
              reported as presumed lost.
             Minesweeper TIDE (AM-125), by mine, Normandy area,
              49 d. 37' N., 01 d. 05' W.
             Transport SUSAN B. ANTHONTY (AP-72), by mine,
              Normandy area,
              49 d. 33' N., 00 d. 49' W.
            United States naval vessels damaged, Normandy area:
             Destroyer HARDING (DD-625), by grounding,
              49 d. 31' N., 00 d. 50' E.
             Minesweeper PHEASANT (AM-61), by collision,
              49 d. 37' N., 01 d. 05' W.
             PT-505, by mine,
              49 d. 30' N., 01 d., 09' W.
            Japanese naval vessel sunk:
             Destroyer HAYANAMI, by submarine HARDER (SS-257),
              Celebes Sea,
              04 d. 43' N., 120 03' E.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Jun 1994 07:01:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 7 JUN 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
WEDNESDAY, 7 JUNE 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  C-53, Douglas Skytrooper
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 11 B-24s bomb Wuntho and Kalemyo;
9 B-25s hit the Wuntho-Shwebo railroad and bridge at Thityabin; other B-25s
continue flying ammunition to Imphal, India; and a few P-51s hit
Lachigahtawng.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 10 B-25s bomb Lashio and targets
of opportunity along the Salween front; 3 B-25s and 15 fighter-bombers bomb
tank concentrations at Taying, destroy several locomotives at Linfen, and
pound railroad yards at Chenghsien; and P-40s and B-25s strafe sampans at
Fort Bayard and sink a schooner off Nampang Island. 2 rocket-firing P-40s
damage a processing building at the carbide mines at Na Duonp, French
Indochina.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): The Allied Expeditionary Air Force
(AEAF) directs air attacks against congested points to delay movement of more
enemy forces into the assault area. In the first mission (Mission 397) in
the morning, 182 B-17s and 291 B-24s, including 20 PFFs, are dispatched; of
the B-17s, 58 hit Conde sur Noireau, 60 hit Flers, and 54 hit Falaise; of the
B-24s, 66 hit Argentan, 19 hit Vascoeuil, 61 hit Laigle and 83 hit Lisieux;
1 B-24 is damaged beyond repair and 17 B-17s are damaged; 8 airmen are KIA
and 3 WIA.
  In the second mission (Mission 398) in the afternoon, 487 B-17s and 88
B-24s are dispatched; the primary targets for the B-17s are Nantes (190 bomb)
and the Kerlin/Bastard Airfield (132 bomb); 23 B-17s hit Niort and 40 hit the
Nantes Bridge; the primary target for the B-24s is Tours/La Roche (12 bomb)
and 13 hit Pouance, 13 hit Blain, 13 hit Chateaubriand, 25 hit Laval
Airfield, 12 hit Vitre and 3 hit Tours; 1 B-17 and 1 B-24 are lost, 1 B-17
and 7 B-24s are damaged beyond repair and 78 B-17s and 96 B-24s are damaged;
21 airmen are KIA, 12 WIA and 12 MIA. Heavy cloud prevents almost 100 others
from bombing targets.
  VIII Fighter Command furnishes area support for beachhead areas in the
early morning and to heavy bomber operations at midday and in the late
afternoon, at the same time maintaining harassment of communications and
flying shipping patrol. 526 P-38s and 294 P-51s patrol the beachhead and
provide escort in N France; they claim 2-0-1 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air
and 0-0-2 on the ground; 8 P-51s are lost; 1 airman is KIA and 7 MIA. 505
P-47s and 148 P-51s engage in general strafing over N France and claim
29-1-12 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 25-0-12 on the ground; 10 P-47s and
4 P-51s are lost and 3 P-51s are damaged beyond repair; 1 airman is KIA and
12 MIA.
  Mission 399: 10 B-17s drop leaflets over The Netherlands, France and
Belgium.
  14 B-24s participate in CARPETBAGGER operations in France.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 600+ B-26s hit bridges, junctions,
trestles, coastal and field batteries, and marshalling yards in France in
support of the invasion; 1,100+ fighters support ground troops by dive
bombing and strafing, escort B-26s and C-47s, and make sweeps throughout the
battle area as Bayeux is liberated and the Bayeux-Caen road is cut; and 400+
C-47s, C-53's, and gliders resupply paratroops in the assault area.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): The Fifteenth Air Force reaches
its planned operational strength of 21 heavy bomber groups and 7 fighter
groups as the 332d Fighter Group begins operations with P-47s.
  In Italy, 340 B-17s and B-24s, some with fighter cover, hit Leghorn dock
and harbor installations, Voltri shipyards, Savona railroad junction, and
Vado Ligure marshalling yard; 42 P-38s bomb the Recco viaduct and 32 P-47s
fly an uneventful sweep over the Fenara-Bologna area. In France, the Antheor
viaduct and Var River bridge are hit.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, weather hampers medium
bomber operation but several rail and road bridges and viaducts are attacked;
fighter-bombers blast retreating motor transport and troops, and hit bridges
N of Rome; numerous vehicles are destroyed immediately N of Rome and
especially in the Subiaco area near Rome; many hits are scored on roads and
railroads, and several railroad cars and gun emplacements are destroyed; the
US Fifth Army captures Civitavecchia; 315th and 316th Fighter Squadrons,
324th Fighter Group, move from Pignataro Maggiore to Le Banca Airfield with
P-40s; and 522d and 524th Fighter Squadrons, 27th Fighter Group, move from
Santa Maria to Le Banca Airfield with P-47s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-25s from Makin Island bomb
Ponape Island.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): All scheduled strikes in
the Rabaul area of New Britain Island are weathered out. P-39s and P-38s
hit several targets of opportunity on Bougainville Island, including occupied
areas at Monoitu.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, B-25s bomb
Biak Island, hitting pun positions near Bosnik, the airstrip at Sorido, and
Borokoe road; A-20s hit shipping in the Manokwari area; B-25s blast supply
areas near the Orai River; fighter-bombers and A-20s continue pounding the
Wewak-Hansa Bay coast. Thirteenth Air Task Force B-24s hit various targets
in Truk Atoll (weather permits only 10 of the 48-airplane force to reach the
target area).

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Jun 1994 12:10:33 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <smb@NETMGRS.CO.UK>
Subject: Philadelphia Experiment

D+1 greetings to you all.

some chaps here read sthg about the Philadelphia experiment during, I believe
WWII? I my self have no knowledge of it, but am led to believe that it
involved the attempted "invisibility" of ships by blasting them with
electromagnetic forces? It apparently led to some rather serious side-effects
for the crew of the respective ships. Can anyone fill in with more details?

with apologies for my vagueness

steve baldwin
smb@netmgrs.co.uk

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Jun 1994 07:23:50 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: D-DAY

On Mon, 6 Jun 1994 13:53:32 -0400 Dan Ford said:
>But the revisionism that really bothers me is the phrase: "Nazi-occupied
>France."

I don't understand "revisionism" in this sentence:  I've never heard anything
in the appropriate context other than "Nazi-occupied France", or Greece, or
Holland, or Europe.  That's over a 30 year period of reading on the subject.
I hardly call it "revisionist" to say such a thing.

>You get the
>impression, from National Public Radio, that 150 divisions of aliens from
>the Planet Nazi landed on Europe in 1939 and occupied it. Then, except for
>a few oddballs like Martin Bormann, they got back in their spaceships in
>July 1945 and were never seen again.

Didn't hear the broadcast, so can't comment on this aspect.  But I've always
found Nazism to be pretty alien, myself (-:

ken koester
maint2@ers.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Jun 1994 07:31:34 -0500
From:    John Davis <JBDML@OSBM6.OSBM.STATE.NC.US>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago Today - 07-JUN-1944

On 07-JUN-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
France - As dawn comes about fighting begins anew after the lull during the
     night. The most pressing problem of the Allies it to consolidate the
     beachheads and reaching the previous day's objectives as soon as
     possible. For the German defenders it is a matter of life or death to
     drive the Allies back before the breach can be widened. The American 4th
     Division (II Corps) advances north in the direction of a line between
     Quineville and Montebourg. It is halted by strong German resistance on
     the line of fortifications from Crisbecq to Azeville. Columns from the
     8th Infantry converge on Ste Mere Eglise to support the 82nd Airborne
     against a strong German counter-attack which is coming from the north.
     Additional units of the 82nd reach the east bank of the Merderet, where
     they meet strong opposition at the La Fiere bridge. South of Ste Mere
     Eglise units of the 101st Airborne hold up their attacks to establish a
     bridgehead over the river Douve. German units at Le Port and La Barquette
     surrender to the 101st. The U.S. V Corps advances toward Isigny and
     Bayeux. Units of the 29th Division reach the St Laurent area and head on
     towards Louvieres and Montigny. On the right of the sector the 26th
     Regiment fails to capture Formigny; while in the center of the sector the
     18th Regiment pushes on towards Engranville, Manderville and Mosles. The
     16th Regiment captures Huppain. The Germand defenders are maintaining a
     solid grip on the corrider separating the British and American forces.
     In the evening units of the U.S. 2nd Division begin landing ashore. In
     the British sector, Bayeux is taken by the 50th Division and some units
     press on south towards Route 13 which links Bayeux and Caen. Construction
     of the artificial harbors and sheltered anchorages begins off the
     Normandy beachheads.

Italian Front - Units of the U.S. 43rd Division occupy Bracciano and
     Civitavecchia. The docks are in good enough condition to be used
     immediately. In the evening General Clark withdraws the 85th and 88th
     Divisions (II Corps) from the front and sends in the French Expeditionary
     Corps to take their place. The South African 6th Armoured Division,
     followed by the 78th Division of the British XIII Corps heads towards
     Orvieto which is an important road junction.

New Guinea - On Biak, the U.S. 186th Infantry Regiment captures the Mokmer
     airfield and reaches the south coast of the island without opposition.
     Later on the entire area is subjected to intense Japanese artillery and
     machinegun fire. The 162nd Infantry begins the transfer by sea of the
     bulk of its forces to the coastal sector south of the airfield. American
     artillery begins to neutralize the Japanese fortifications in caves in
     the eastern part of the island. Fighting continues in the areas around
     the Hollandia and Aitape beachheads.

Burma/China - The Americans and Chinese prepare to mount a fresh offensive
     against Myitkyina. On the Salween front the Chinese 88th Division reaches
     the eastern edge of Lungling. The Chinese 87th Division, advancing along
     the Burma Road is also approaching the town.

Naval Dispatches
----------------
U.S. submarine GUDGEON (SS-211) is sunk in the Pacific Ocean.

Minesweeper TIDE (AM-125) is sunk by mine at Normandy.

Transport SUSAN B. ANTHONY (AP-72) is sunk by mine at Normandy.

Destroyer HARDING (DD-625) is damaged by grounding at Normandy.

Minesweeper PHEASANT (AM-61) is damaged by grounding at Normandy.

Japanese destroyer HAYANAMI is sunk by submarine HARDER (SS-257) in Celebes
     Sea.

The Homefront
-------------
U.S. General Demoted for Loose Talk - Maj. Gen. J.F. Miller, former commander
     of the U.S. 9th Air Force Service Command in Great Britain has been sent
     back home and demoted to a permanent rank of Lt. Colonel for careless
     talk about the invasion date of France at a London cocktail party.

Soldiers' Pay Increase Bill - The House Military Affairs Committee has
     approved a bill increasing the pay of skilled infantrymen from $5 a month
     to $10 a month.

Exchanges Arrive - The liner Gripsholm has reached Jersey City, N.J. with 51
     wounded American soldiers, 37 Canadian soldiers and 37 civilians who have
     been exchanged for Axis prisoners. AP correspondent Larry Allen is one of
     those exchanged and warns against expecting a quick internal collapse of
     Germany.

NBC Drops Stokowski - NBC has decided not to renew Leopold Stokowski's
     contract to share direction of the NBC Symphony Orchestra with Arturo
     Toscanini. NBC refused to discuss reports that this was done after
     objections to renewal by Toscanini.

Polygamists Sentenced - Nine members of the Fundamentalist sect have been
     convicted of the Mann Act and kidnapping charges and have been sentenced
     to prison terms raning from one to four years.

Judy Garland Divorced - Judy Garland, film actress, has won a divorce suit in
     Los Angeles court against Dave Rose, composer and orchestra leader who is
     with the U.S. Air Forces overseas.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  jbd@osbm.state.nc.us
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Jun 1994 07:31:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: TRV: D-Day & USS George Washington

 >>piece of apparatus. (The RN in comparison has 3 rowing boats
 >>Ark Royal, Illustrious, Invincible) with hand-powered paper jets...]
 >>
 >>
 >>steve baldwin
 >
 >But Steve...you folks have the best names for your ships...
 >HMS Courageous
 >HMS Venomous
 >HMS Revenge
 >HMS Victorious
 >HMS Renown
 >
 >....while we name ours after states (such as USS New Jersey, or as they
 >say it in this area "New Joisey"!) Regards-
 >
 >Jonah Triebwasser
 >Adjunct Instructor
 >Marist College
 >Dyson Building (Adult Education)
 >Poughkeepsie, New York12601
 >Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
 >E-Mail: jzml@maristb.marist.edu

New Joisey!  That's what you idiot New Yorkers say; I am a native
of New Jersey and am sick and tired of you assholes from New Yawk
badmouthing us.  If you have nothing usefull to say, then shut the
hell up.

Jack McKillop

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Jun 1994 12:53:59 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <smb@NETMGRS.CO.UK>
Subject: New Joisey

> >....while we name ours after states (such as USS New Jersey, or as they
> >say it in this area "New Joisey"!) Regards-
> >
> >Jonah Triebwasser
> >Adjunct Instructor
> >Marist College
> >Dyson Building (Adult Education)
> >Poughkeepsie, New York12601
> >Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
> >E-Mail: jzml@maristb.marist.edu
>
>New Joisey!  That's what you idiot New Yorkers say; I am a native
>of New Jersey and am sick and tired of you assholes from New Yawk
>badmouthing us.  If you have nothing usefull to say, then shut the
>hell up.
>
>Jack McKillop

This strikes me as being a trifle brusque....apart from that, as a
neutral outsider, what's the problem over there?

having nothing else useful to say, i'll "shut the hell up."

pass the valium someone...

Steve Baldwin
smb@netmgrs.co.uk

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Jun 1994 08:08:12 EDT
From:    MC <NAPEM007@SIVM.SI.EDU>
Subject: Command confirmation request (5459C1)

ok 5459C1

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Jun 1994 08:36:54 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <sep@TVSS2.COMMNET.EDU>
Subject: Re: TRV: D-Day & USS George Washington

To all my friends from Noo Joisey, New Yawek, Roe Dyland, Massashoosets, etc;

As my mother-in-law is from Rhode Island, which is neither a road, nor an
Island, I appreciate state jokes very muchly, and pray that all receive
them with good humor.

I hate to see frineds fight...

As for me, I'm told that I have a heavy Maine accent, although I was neither
born nor raised 'Down East'...I'm a native Connecticutup. Nutmegger they
say.

Noo Joisey! New Yawek! Just plain nuts, if you ask me. I wonder what our
European/Canadian/et al friends think? Must think we're ALL nuts...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - sep@trctc.commnet.edu |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                        :-))Steve

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Jun 1994 14:03:55 GMT,BST
From:    John Gillies <JOHNG@PSY.GLA.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: E-mail to Scotland

Hello, George! I am based at the University of Glasgow - about 30
miles from Kilmarnock. I'm not sure how one would select a particular
List in order to try to contact an individual, unless one knew wwhat
their interests, etc were. If you need a postal address or a phone
number, I could certainly check the Kilmarnock phone book for you, if
that's any help - or are you just hoping to find ANYONE who lives in
Kilmarnock?
John

> Can anybody tell me what list would be most productive to contact someone
> in Scotland?  Specifically Kilmarnock Ayrshire.
>
> Thank you.
>
>
>   =========================================================================
>   | DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
>   |                                  | Computers in Business & Education. |
>   | Recently returned from my second | Education:  Curriculum development.|
>   |   extended stay in Prague.       |    International Education, TEFL.  |
>   | Working on second book about     | Central Europe:  Post revolution   |
>   |   Prague and new Czech Republic. |    economic, social, political     |
>   |                                  |    problems and opportunities.     |
>   |                                  |  B-25 in WWII.                     |
>   | E-Mail:                          | Free lance writing and editing.    |
>   |   USA:  BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET    | Stamp collecting.                  |
>   =========================================================================
>

John Gillies
Department of Psychology
Adam Smith Building
University of Glasgow
Glasgow  G12 8RT                      Tel: (0)41 339 8855 ext.5351
Scotland
                         johng@psy.gla.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Jun 1994 15:06:07 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@NAT2.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: Philadelphia Experiment

On Tue, 7 Jun 1994, Stephen Baldwin wrote:

> some chaps here read sthg about the Philadelphia experiment during, I believe
> WWII? I my self have no knowledge of it, but am led to believe that it
> involved the attempted "invisibility" of ships by blasting them with
> electromagnetic forces? It apparently led to some rather serious side-effects
> for the crew of the respective ships. Can anyone fill in with more details?

You are more likely to find more info on this 'experiment' in books on
UFOs, Atlantis, or Great Mysteries. The story is that USS Eldridge (a
destroyer, if I remember well) was made invisible by the application of
electromagnetic forces, designed according to a secret theory created by
Einstein :-). It is an old hoax, that has gained wide popularity and
became the subject of a movie.

There is no way to make ships 'invisible' by using electromagnetic fields;
light is to a good approximation not influenced by such fields, because
photons have no electric charge. The origin of this story is mysterious,
but the most likely sources of it are (i) the use of degaussing cables to
make ships 'invisible' to magnetic mines, and (ii) an experiment to reduce
the visibility of ships by illuminating them (on sea ships appear dark
against a light background.)

Emmanuel gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Jun 1994 09:39:54 -0400
From:    Max Calderwood <maxc@URSUS1.URSUS.MAINE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Philadelphia Experiment

Carlos Allen the notorious hoaxer, responsible for this BS story,
completely confessed in person to Coral Lorenzen director of the Aerial
Phenomena Research Organization almost 20 years ago.

Still, this story continues to resurface every few years, a tribute to
the tenacity of rumor.  People who have even done additional research,
locating Allen's neighbors and even then they have said this guy was a
dedicated hoaxer. "If he said the sky was blue, I'd look up to see if it
was so..."

A lot of hack writers continue to crank our books on this for a stricly
cultist audience.  It proves to be a money maker year after year even
though the originator confessed decades ago.

You can file it with Nazi North Pole UFO bases etc.
Max C. Calderwood
University of Southern Maine
Gorham, ME
MAXC@URSUS1.URSUS.MAINE.EDU

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Jun 1994 09:51:50 -0400
From:    Peter Smith <psmith@WELLSPRING.US.DG.COM>
Subject: Re: Philadelphia Experiment

Emmanuel said:
> ... The origin of this story is mysterious,
> but the most likely sources of it are (i) the use of degaussing cables to
> make ships 'invisible' to magnetic mines, and (ii) an experiment to reduce
> the visibility of ships by illuminating them (on sea ships appear dark
> against a light background.)

This topic comes up at least once a year in the Usenet groups sci.skeptic and
alt.folklore.urban.  The origin of the story has been traced back to one
Carlos Allende (aka Carl Allen), who sold it to Morris Jessup, a publisher
of several UFO pulps in the 1950's.  Allende/Allen seems to have focussed
on the Philadelphia Navy Yard because of a high-security area there that
involved very high electrical consumption and physicists.  As I remember,
some sort of accellerator was set up there for the use of the Manhatten
Project scientists still residing at Princeton and Columbia, the Navy Yard
having the required electrical capabilities and tight security.  This,
combined with unrelated experiments in de-gaussing ships to defeat magneticly-
triggered mines & torpedoes was the basis for the hoax.

By the way, the USS Eldridge (DE 173) finished WWII in the Pacific and was
transferred to Greece in 1951 where she was still serving in the 1980's.
--
Peter Smith -- Data General Corp., Westboro, MA
psmith@wellspring.us.dg.com (preferred) or Peter_Smith@dgc.ceo.dg.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Jun 1994 10:19:20 -0500
From:    mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: MISC:  New Joisy

Steve,

     Basically, New Jersey is the garbage dump and Mafia front
for New York(ers).

     Sort of like what Scotland is for England?  :-)

     *Who*'s a provocationist?!

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Jun 1994 10:20:26 EST
From:    "ROBERT MARION, HISTORY DEPT." <RMARION@UCS.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: TRV: D-Day & USS George Washington

     I too am from New York, Jack, and I resent your tone to my compatriot.
Gentlemanly dissent is always welcome, but I feel you are well out of line
with your vulgarisms. The remark was not intended to slur anyone from New
Jersey, I am sure!

 Bob Marion
 Rochester, New York
 Dept. of History
 Indiana University

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Jun 1994 11:32:00 -0400
From:    Joe Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: MISC:  New Joisy

        While this thread may be entertaining to some, let's remember the
charter of this list.  If one feels the need to add their humor to this
discussion, please put it in a postscript to a note that *is* related to
WWII.  Thanks.
--
Joe Barone, WWII-L owner
m1b@ssd.ray.com
PS: And Rhode Island does have some islands -- I live on one!

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Jun 1994 10:39:04 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: INFO ME 410

Hello, Derek!

Here goes with the long-promised info on the Me-410.

The Me-410 differed little from the Me-210 in that it had a fuselage
longer by 19.7 inches (50cm) and different engines. The Me-410 went
into quantity production in 1942. 291 machines were produced in 1943
and 722 in 1944. Me-410A-1 was a high-speed bomber version with 2 DB-
603A (1750 hp) engines. The A-1/U2 had 4 20 mm cannon in the nose and
ventral position, in addition to the standard armament of the Me-210.
A-1/U3 on the other hand, had 4 20mm cannon in the bomb bay. The
Me-410A-2  was armed with 2 30mm MK-103 cannon accommodated in the
bomb bay. The A-2/UT was a radar-equipped night fighter. A-2/U4 had 1
50mm cannon and the Me-410A-3 was a reconnaissance plane.



Me-410A-1

Power plant: 2 DB-603A (1750 hp) engines

Span: 16.33 m (53.5 feet)

Length: 12.75 m (41.8 feet)

Weight loaded: 10,650 kg (23,500 pounds)

Maximum speed: 620km/h (385 mph)

Standard armament: MG 151 (20mm) cannon x 2, MG 17 (7.9 mm) guns x 2,
                   MG 131 (13 mm) guns x 2

Bomb load: 500 kg (1100 pounds)


Hope this helps and sorry to have taken so long. If you need anything
else, please let me know.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Jun 1994 09:11:15 -0700
From:    George Diez <radicus@KAIWAN.COM>
Subject: World War II French humor <translated>

Warning: potentially offensive!


     This has to be in the original for the pun at the end:
"Comment sera gagnee la guerre?  'Par l'or americain, la tenacite
anglaise, ... et la comedie francaise.'"  ("How will the war be
won?  'With American money, British tenacity, ... and French
ridiculousness.'"'La Comedie Francaise' is the famous Paris
theatrical company, whose name Jean Galtier-Boissiere uses as a
pun for his criticism of the way the French do anything,
including fight a war.)

Source: Bobs M. Tusa, Louisiana Tech University

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                  |
    radicus@kaiwan.com            |    "The Harder they come, the Harder
    George L. Diez III            |     they fall, One and All"
                                  |                          ---Jimmy Cliff
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Jun 1994 11:33:11 -0500
From:    mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: Could the Soviets alone have beaten the Nazis?

[WWII-L members, this is on MILHST-L@UKANVM.BITNET]

In reply to the question posed by Robert Marion of Indiana
  University:

Yes.  If we hadn't landed in Northwest Europe the Soviets
  probably *could* have defeated the Nazis, anyway.

However, they probably would *not* have, without our Lend-
  Lease support (particularly in aircraft and trucks, as well
  as foodstuffs and raw materials), our aerial bombing
  diversion of much of the Luftwaffe aerial and ground
  strength, our "Second Front" in the Med, etc.!

"Allied Victory" over the Axis was very much that, although it
  may seem to some -- with all the D-Day fanfare -- that we are
  indulging in *excessive* self-gratification.

23 June 1994 is the 50th anniversary of the showpiece Soviet
  field victory in The Great Patriotic War, "Operation Bagration,"
  wherein an entire German *army group*(!) was annihilated in
  White Russia/Byelorussia in a classic double envelopment
  masterminded/prosecuted by the brilliant, iconoclastic Red Army
  Marshal K.K. Rokossovskii.

It might be nice if our media balanced its coverage of the War,
  a little.

Lou Coatney, Member, World War II Studies Association
  Western Illinois University Library (til 30Jun94)

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Jun 1994 11:40:59 EST
From:    "ROBERT MARION, HISTORY DEPT." <RMARION@UCS.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Could the Soviets alone have beaten the Nazis?

     Thanks for your response Lou.
 Bob Marion.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Jun 1994 11:40:40 -0500
From:    mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: Re: World War II French humor <translated>

George,

     It was exactly that kind of cynical attitude that prepared
the French, psychologically, for defeat in 1940.

     The rest of the Allies -- and certainly the Axis -- were less
afflicted by this "malaise."

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Jun 1994 13:30:55 -0400
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: MEDIA: Video tapes

        I have received a couple of requests for copies of the Combat!
marathon and I have read one request for a copy of the PBS "American
Experience".  I have all 27 hours of the color Combat! episodes on tape
(barring cable outages that I am not aware of) as well as the American
Experience.  I also have ABC's 2 hour "Turning Point" on D-Day.  I will
make copies for those interested but I should mention that it would be
a time-consuming venture and people shouldn't expect quick turn-around
times.  The format would be VHS using the NTSC standard (sorry, Europe).
The originals were recorded at EP speed over cable so the quality may
not be the greatest.  The best method would be for people to mail me a
check for the video tapes and sufficient return postage, indicate what
tape brand and quality are preferred, recording speed, etc.  I will then
buy the tapes, make the copies, and mail them out.  Concerning the Combat!
episodes, I really won't be able to copy "the six best ones"; I will copy
the first six ones, though.  Also, Nostaglia aired the premier episode
(B&W) last night which features our heroes starting in England and
landing at Omaha.  I didn't get the first few minutes, though.

        If interested, please email me directly rather than respond to
the list.  You may have to modify the To: line to my address.
--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
Woof woof WOOF! That's my other dog impression.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Jun 1994 13:35:47 -0400
From:    "Mr. Scott Hannon" <hannon@UMBC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: ARC: German Airborne Operations

Dale Lally asks:
>IRT the German operations manual, does anyone know whether any of these
>or other WWII documents are in the original language (German)?

If you are refering to the various booklets like the Airborne Appraisal,
Warfare in the Far North, Combat in Russian Forests and Swamps, etc, then
I doubt they are readily available in German. The series was based on
de-briefings of German officiers while they were still locked up shortly
after the war. They were prepared by Americans for Americans, and as such
I doubt anything other than the original interviews and manuscripts (by
the individual German officiers) are in German...the rest is probably
english. But I'm not 100% sure.

Many of these (a dozen or more) were re-printed by the US GPO just a few
years ago...I think many are still available. Also, I think I saw somewhere
that some publisher has recently collected many of these booklets and
published them as a hard-cover book. IMO, they are worth getting ahold of.

Scott.
Scott Hannon, Tue Jun 7 1994 (hannon@umbc.edu)

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Jun 1994 13:40:30 EDT
From:    JohnS426@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Re[2]: D-DAY

Thanks Jonah for the quick reply. I had thought I read somewhere that the
Coventry raid story was a myth. We ought to bombard those 60 min people about
perpetrating yet another calumny.
Thanks again
John Sloan
johns426@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Jun 1994 18:42:29 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <smb@NETMGRS.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Could the Soviets alone have beaten the Nazis?

This is an interesting question, to which I don't think I can add anything.
I would, however, be interested to know more the assumptions behind
Lou "The Kat" Coatney's view that the Russians could still have won.

If Germany had invaded Poland in 1939 without causing the western allies'
declaration of war, and, suppose for the sake of argument, he still
invaded Russia on 22/06/41 (European date format!!) (given the
first assumption, I don't see why he would have held off a year before
"doing the business"), and given that the Germans almost made it in
1941, surely without the sideshows of France, the Battle of Britain,
etc etc, he would have pushed the Russians over?

Another scenario - assume the US didn't enter the war in 1941. The
western allies would have been greatly weakened allowing Hitler to
pursue his real enemy, the Soviet Union. Would he have had enough
force to resume the attack in front of Moscow?

steve baldwin
smb@netmgrs.co.uk

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Jun 1994 14:02:34 EDT
From:    Gruppen@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: U.S. Army Manuals

I'm interested in getting a copy of the Soviet TM.  What year was it
orginally done and how many pages are there?

Matthew Gajkowski

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Jun 1994 14:24:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: D-DAY

 >Thanks Jonah for the quick reply. I had thought I read somewhere that the
 >Coventry raid story was a myth. We ought to bombard those 60 min people about
 >perpetrating yet another calumny.
 >Thanks again
 >John Sloan
 >johns426@aol.com
 >

As was stated in the segment of 60 MINUTES, the Enigma portion was
a repeat of a segment originally broadcast 20 years ago.  Morley
Safer introduced the segment and the differences between Morley
today and the Morley in the Enigma segment are very evident.

Jack McKillop

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Jun 1994 15:29:14 EDT
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor,
         Marist Coll" <JZML@MARISTB.BITNET>
Subject: Re[2]: TRV: D-Day & USS George Washington

>     I too am from New York, Jack, and I resent your tone to my compatriot.
>Gentlemanly dissent is always welcome, but I feel you are well out of line
>with your vulgarisms. The remark was not intended to slur anyone from New
>Jersey, I am sure!
>
> Bob Marion
> Rochester, New York
> Dept. of History
> Indiana University
Bob- Thanks for your comment. I have not responded to Jack because his
other postings are so interesting, but I am mystified as to his
reaction to what was clearly a humorous remark. Oh well, everyone
is entitled to a bad day now and then. Regards-

Jonah Triebwasser
Adjunct Instructor
Marist College
Dyson Building (Adult Education)
Poughkeepsie, New York12601
Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
E-Mail: jzml@maristb.marist.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Jun 1994 15:29:03 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA: D-Day Chronology

>From the DoD Newswire 6 June 1994

:CHRONOLOGY OF D-DAY EVENTS

    OMAHA BEACH, France, June 5  - The outcome of World War
Two depended largely on the success of the first day of Operation
Overlord, the June 6, 1944 Allied landing on five Normandy beaches.
     Following is a chronology of D-Day events:
     JUNE 5
     0430 (French time): Allied commander U.S. General Dwight D.
Eisenhower gives Operation Overlord his go-ahead "OK, let's go."
     2200: Eisenhower attends departure of paratroopers. The BBC
broadcasts the coded message warning French resistance of the
impending landing.
     JUNE 6:
     0005 : Warplanes start dropping 5,000 tonnes of bombs on German
defences between Le Havre and Cherbourg
     0010: Pathfinders drop to mark out dropping zones
     0015: U.S. paratroopers jump over Cotentin peninsula, the western
end of the invasion zone
     0020: British commandos land in gliders to seize bridges on the
eastern flank of the invasion zone
     0145: German soldiers alert headquarters to major operation
underway
     0430: U.S. 82nd airborne division enters Sainte-Mere-Eglise
     0550: Allied warships' big guns start pounding German coastal
defences
     0625: Bombing stops five minutes from landing
     0631: U.S. 4th division starts landing at Utah Beach. The U.S.
1st and 2nd divisions land at Omaha Beach and are pinned down by heavy
fire.
     0710: U.S. Rangers start attack on the area's most powerful
German artillery batteries, atop sheer cliffs at Pointe du Hoc
     0730: Britain's 3rd and 50th divisions land at Gold and Sword
Beach
     0745: U.S. troops start advancing inland from Utah Beach
     0800: Canadian troops land at Juno Beach
     0930: Operation Overlord is officially announced to press
     1000: U.S. troops reach top of Omaha Beach hills
     1030: First German reinforcements, the 21st Panzerdivision, set
off for Caen and Bayeux
     1330: U.S. troops start moving inland from Omaha Beach
     1332: Lord Lovat's British Green Berets commandos relieve Red
Berets holding Pegasus Bridge
     1600: First tanks drive off from Omaha Beach. Hitler and his
chiefs of staff still believe the landing is a trick to divert German
forces from the Pas-de-Calais region
     1630: 21st Panzerdivision attacks British troops behind Sword
Beach
     1800: Germans halt British advance towards Caen
     2030: British troops take Arromanches, where Allies will build
artificial port to bring in reinforcements, equipment
     2100: Gliders land reinforcements in Utah, Omaha areas
     0000: Fighting dies down in Normandy. Hitler gathers top generals
to study response to Overlord
     The Battle of Normandy continued until August 22 when German
troops were surrounded at Falaise, opening the road to Paris.
======

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-8760
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-8760

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Jun 1994 15:32:18 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA:D-DAY Jump

>From the DoD Newswire 6 June 1994


:JUMP HIGHLIGHTS EVE OF D DAY

   SAINTE-MERE-EGLISE, France  -- Parachute failure made for a
hard landing for one U.S. veteran and capricious winds pushed others
miles off course on Sunday in an all-too-real recreation of the D-Day
drop that freed the first village in France.
   Across the channel, an Allied flotilla set sail for Normandy as the
weather finally broke -- just as it did 50 years ago -- providing
sunny skies for the thousands who gathered to commemorate the start of
history's greatest amphibious invasion.
   At least two of the veteran paratroopers were injured in Sunday's
jump in Normandy, neither seriously.
   Most of the 41 pumped-up vets -- ranging from their late 60s to
early 80s -- described the jump as a piece of cake, despite the
shifting winds and their advanced years.
   "When you make a combat jump, you come out at 900 (feet), you're
loaded down with ammunition, it's night and somebody's shooting at
you," said Everett Hall, 74, of Kingston, R.I. "Why be afraid today?"
   About 700 U.S. and French paratroopers followed the vets, landing
on a pasture of grass and yellow buttercups, mushy after several days
of rain.
   Elsewhere in Normandy, about 1,100 British, Canadian, Australian
and Polish paratroopers jumped at Ranville, near Pegasus Bridge, the
first to fall in the D-Day assault.
   They were greeted Sunday by Prince Charles and autograph-seekers
instead of German army defenders as they marched across the bridge,
where the first house liberated in France, the Gondree Cafe, was
filled Sunday with partying Britons.
   In Portsmouth, England, some 80 ships, including the aircraft
carrier USS George Washington, and dozens of smaller boats set off to
retrace the nighttime D-Day invasion that started the yearlong battle
to free Europe from the Nazis.
   Two million red poppies, symbolizing remembrance, fluttered over
the armada from a low-flying Lancaster bomber.
   The day started with an ecumenical service at a seaside war
memorial in Portsmouth, attended by about 40,000 veterans.
   Afterward, President Clinton, Queen Elizabeth II and six other
heads of state boarded the Royal Yacht Britannia to review the
flotilla and watch a flyby of more than 100 vintage and modern Allied
aircraft. Twenty Hawk jet trainers formed the number "50" in the sky.
   They were then joined by 60 other major vessels including the
aircraft carrier USS George Washington, later boarded by Clinton.
   While the Washington remained off the French coast, the Brittania
arrived late Sunday night in the commercial port of Caen, where the
royal family spent the night.
   The parachuting veterans -- many of whom landed on D-Day -- had
made three practice jumps in San Diego to get the official nod from
reluctant U.S. and French authorities, who worried about their safety.
   In the most serious incident, the last jumper, 70-year-old Earl
Draper of Inverness, Fla., narrowly escaped serious injury when the
cords on his main parachute tangled. He released it and opened his
smaller emergency chute, which is harder to control and makes for a
faster, rougher landing.
   Draper slammed hard into the mud less than a yard behind a row of
parked cars. But he raised his fist in a victory salute nonetheless as
he was carried on a stretcher to a helicopter for the ride to a
Cherbourg hospital, where he was in stable condition with back
injuries.
   "It was one hell of a step out there ... one hell of a jump," he
said.
   Army spokesman Col. Richard N. Bridges said Draper followed normal
emergency jump procedures. "He did exactly the right thing," Bridges
said.
   Another paratrooper, wearing a Mohawk hairpiece, suffered bloody
scratches to his face that medics described as minor.
   Despite helicopters watching overhead, the oldest veteran, Rene
Dussac, 83, of Encino, Calif., was lost far from the drop zone and was
eventually found by French firefighters.
   His wife, Charlotte, was frantic until she was informed that
Dussac, a former movie stuntman, was OK and having a drink in
Sainte-Mere-Eglise, two hours after he disappeared.
   On D-Day, most of the 13,000 other American paratroops were also
widely scattered, victims of poor weather and pilots trying to evade
antiaircraft fire.
   Despite Sunday's mishaps, the veterans were elated over returning
to the scene where many of them landed 50 years ago in the opening
hours of D-Day, capturing the first French town and blocking Nazi
reinforcements.
   Most ended up with mud on their uniforms, but even those blown off
course wore ecstatic smiles.
   "I'm overcome by the love of the people and the way they greeted
us," said Harold Taylor, 74, of Huntsville, Ala., who made his first
trip back since parachuting into town on D-Day. "I can't say anymore,"
he said, choking with emotion.
   From two planes, the veterans' red, white and blue parachutes
unfurled over the green countryside and landed amid a smoke marker to
wild applause from some 30,000 spectators, many of whom brought picnic
baskets and lawn chairs.
   Heavy rain and gusty wind lashed both sides of the English Channel
in recent days, reminiscent of conditions in 1944 that prompted Gen.
Dwight D. Eisenhower to delay D-Day, originally scheduled June 5,
until the following day.
   But on Sunday, sun burst through the clouds and the wind died down.
   Parking areas were still swamped from the rain, forcing people to
park their cars along the road and walk for miles. French officials
broadcast radio appeals for people to stay away.
   But spirits remained high.
   "It's super!" said Michele Genet, 67. He and four buddies, former
French paratroopers, gave a thumbs-up to the vets' jump.
   "Only the Americans could do this," Genet said. "The French
authorities would never let people like us do it."
====

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-8760
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-8760

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Jun 1994 15:58:11 -0500
From:    Bill Smith <bismith@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: USS Arkansas

In the June 5 almanac listing posted for the prelude to Overlord, the
note was made of five battleships which escorted the fleet.  One of these
was the Arkansas.  Can someone advise me of the fate of this ship?  I'm a
little surprised (*NOT*) that our state media didn't pick up on the ship
as an angle for D-Day coverage.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Jun 1994 15:34:34 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA:D-Day Ranger Reclimb

>From the DoD Newswire 6 June 1994

:RANGER RE SCALES D DAY CLIFF

   POINTE DU HOC, France  -- In a Ranger helmet and old black
jeans, smiling more than he did 50 years ago and met by a cheering
family instead of Germans, Don Pechacek scaled the dreaded cliff.
   "Aw, heck," he said Sunday, as freshly minted Rangers helped him
scramble over the top and clucked at blood streaming from a scrape on
his right hand. "I just got sensitive skin."
   Weathered and fit, he did not look fragile. For the little crowd
clustered around him, the 72-year-old farmer from Ellsworth, Wis.,
symbolized the spirit of the men who came back to honor D-Day.
   Pechacek, of Czech Bohemian stock, was born near Minneapolis and
has never lived more than five miles away from his first home. In the
1940s, he took time out from the crops to go help win a war.
   On June 6, his job was to fling a grappling hook above the
120-foot-high cliff face and climb straight up into withering gunfire.
He was among the first to make it. A lot of others died trying.
   He was with the 2nd Ranger Battalion, assigned to take out six
155-mm guns which threatened the invasion fleet from a hardened bunker
which naval artillery could not dent.
   "It was no big deal at the time," he recalled on the eve of his
fresh assault. "When you're 20, nothing bothers you. Hell, we thought
the 225 of us could win the whole war."
   The guns, in fact, were in a nearby barn. The Germans had not
installed them. But the Rangers had little time to fret over the
needless sacrifice.
   Pechacek's unit pressed on into a 21-day stretch of combat, a trial
of nerves that brings a shudder to anyone who has gone to war. For
decades afterward, he could not talk about it.
   Back with his buddies for a final catharsis, surrounded by two
daughters, a son, grandkids and his wife, Elizabeth -- 12 people in
all -- the old Ranger relived his war for a reporter.
   From Normandy, he moved on through France and into Germany. He was
one of the first to reach the extermination camps at Buchenwald, and
he was at Auschwitz.
   Pechacek talked of death and pain and fear as matter-of-factly as
if describing a corn blight. With no bravado, he told of death and
pain and fear a long way from home. Suddenly, he was sobbing.
   His daughters moved in gently, each nuzzling a cheek. He kept on
talking, though inaudible for long moments, and soon the steady,
detached tone returned. But tears kept streaming down his cheeks.
   At his side, two other Pechacek generations weeped along with him.
   Pechacek met his Welsh wife in England. They'd had only six dates,
and she was engaged to someone else. He sent a ticket, and she came to
settle on the farm. The war was over.
   "My dad never bragged, never brought up his experiences," Donna
Pechacek said, describing a peaceable man who managed to raise eight
children on a stretched budget.
   "Sometimes he'd kill a woodchuck with one shot or win a turkey at a
contest for the family, and we'd just laugh," she added. "Shooting
seemed so out of character."
   Despite what he had faced, Pechacek said he could not hate Germans.
"They were doing what we were: trying to win a war," he said.
   In 1989, Pechacek came back and climbed up Pointe du Hoc with other
Rangers. This year he decided to do it one last time.
   "Some of these young guys, they don't want us to climb," he said
with a laugh that suggested nothing would stop him. "I ain't going to
put on special gear, just tennis shoes and old clothes."
   The next morning, a young Ranger public affairs officer declared
that no old-timers would be making the climb. It was too strenuous and
dangerous, he explained.
   But at the cliff, a stout rope hung down to the beach, anchored
securely by a metal stave. Just as backup, a half dozen Rangers held a
safety line attached to Pechacek's waist.
   Spectators, kept behind barbed wire, saw only the twitching rope.
Then Donna heard her father's voice. "Go, dad!" she yelled, the rope
twitched harder.
   Finally, the old Ranger appeared, grinning. After pausing for the
photographers, he went to have someone treat the hand he cut on the
rock.
   Asked if he thought about D-Day on the way up, he laughed hard.
"Hell, no," he said. "I was just thinking about making it to the top."
======

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-8760
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-8760

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Jun 1994 10:00:26 +1523847
From:    Kevin Noonan <knoonan@CLEESE.APANA.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Philadelphia Experiment

Steve uttered the following immortal words
>
> D+1 greetings to you all.
>
> some chaps here read sthg about the Philadelphia experiment during, I believe
> WWII? I my self have no knowledge of it, but am led to believe that it
> involved the attempted "invisibility" of ships by blasting them with
> electromagnetic forces? It apparently led to some rather serious side-effects
> for the crew of the respective ships. Can anyone fill in with more details?
>
> with apologies for my vagueness
>
> steve baldwin
> smb@netmgrs.co.uk
>

Giggle, mirth, merriment in extreme!

The whole Philadelphia experiment was a movie pretending to be based on
real events. The same sort of lunatic trash as the Bermuda Triangle (imagine
spooky music here).

Don't believe what you see in movies _all_ the time :)


Kevin Noonan
knoonan@cleese.apana.org.au

You seem to be batting into sticky water

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Jun 1994 10:07:08 +1523847
From:    Kevin Noonan <knoonan@CLEESE.APANA.ORG.AU>
Subject: Cossack (Destroyer)

Can anyone help me with my silly interest in the WWII Tribal Class
Destroyer COSSACK?

I have copies of what I am told are the only _two_ photos of the Cossack.
Can anyone point me to more info on the Cossack?

I am aware of most of the gross information, but would like some detail

Thanks


Kevin Noonan
knoonan@cleese.apana.org.au

You have a real feel for the history of the past, don't you?

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Jun 1994 17:38:28 -0700
From:    Ed Kettler <deradler@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: USS Arkansas

Bill,

Arkansas was expended in the Bikini atom bomb test on 7/25/46.

Regards,
Ed

Ed Kettler                                       deradler@netcom.com


On Tue, 7 Jun 1994, Bill Smith wrote:

> In the June 5 almanac listing posted for the prelude to Overlord, the
> note was made of five battleships which escorted the fleet.  One of these
> was the Arkansas.  Can someone advise me of the fate of this ship?  I'm a
> little surprised (*NOT*) that our state media didn't pick up on the ship
> as an angle for D-Day coverage.
>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Jun 1994 22:09:48 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET>
Subject: Re: D-DAY

Since when have facts slowed down TV when they thought they had a good story?

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Jun 1994 23:21:28 EDT
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor,
         Marist Coll" <JZML@MARISTB.BITNET>
Subject: MEDIA: NOST: Why We Fight!

Media Alert! The Arts and Entertainment cable channel in the US
is showing the Frank Capra classic series "Why We Fight!"
These were produced during the war years. Check your newspapers
for dates and times. Regards-


Jonah Triebwasser
Adjunct Instructor
Marist College
Dyson Building (Adult Education)
Poughkeepsie, New York12601
Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
E-Mail: jzml@maristb.marist.edu

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 6 Jun 1994 to 7 Jun 1994
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 41 messages totalling 1377 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. ARC: St. Lo, new at byrd. (2)
  2. ARC: USS Arkansas
  3. MEDIA: NOST: Why We Fight! (2)
  4. Philadelphia Experiment (2)
  5. The war (comedy)
  6. [INF] USAAF 8 JUN 44
  7. INF: 50 Years Ago Today - 08-JUN-1944
  8. INF: USN Chronology 06-08-94
  9. Re[2]: TRV: D-Day & USS George Washington
 10. World War II French humor <translated> (2)
 11. Command confirmation request (400136)
 12. Cossack (Destroyer)
 13. GEN: BRITISH ORDERS TO TAKE NO PRISONERS? (6)
 14. TAC: Encirclement of Army Group Center
 15. Living History magazine (3)
 16. GEN: _American Experience_: D-Day Remembered (was: MEDIA: Video tapes) (3)
 17. Jesse out from THUR.-MON.
 18. RIP John Wilhelm (2)
 19. SBD-2, BuNo 2106 (2)
 20. TAC: Encirclement of...
 21. Congrats to Tim Scherrer! (2)
 22. Living History
 23. TRV: Volkswagens
 24. Henning von Treschkow
 25. Is the KAYTN Thesis at BYRD?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Jun 1994 23:04:26 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: ARC: St. Lo, new at byrd.

St.Lo, one of the AMERICAN FIGHTING FORCES IN ACTION SERIES, from the
Center for Military History, has been uploaded to

byrd.mu.wvnet.edu

in directory

/pub/history/military/wwii/U.S.Army.campaigns/St.Lo

Below is an excerpt from the book:

There had been nothing glamorous about First Army's painful battle
through the hedgerows. With use of air power limited by weather, and the
effectiveness of tanks reduced by the terrain, the fighting came down to
a matter of the artillery bludgeoning and the infantry pushing through
an endless series of defended fields and orchards. In this close
country, with so much cover and concealment, there was endless
opportunity for superior forces to be tied down by a handful of resolute
enemy snipers. In modern warfare, with modern weapons, battles are
fought ordinarily at such ranges that opposing forces may seldom see
each other. Here, in Normandy, bitter actions were often fought by units
only 50 to 100 yards apart, with tanks and self-propelled guns in the
front lines. But, even so, the American and German troops might not see
each other in the course of a day's fight-except for the bodies left
behind in a withdrawal. Whole squads, as well as individual snipers,
could hide in the leafy embankments, and there was opportunity for use
of daring tactics, such as might have been used in Indian fighting, by
patrols and scouts on either side. A soldier story-not authenticated,
but wholly plausible-relates the experience of an officer who joined a
unit up front as replacement, in the course of the battle. After
inspection of the outpost line, he came back to the company CP to
complain that there was no contact with the enemy; the Germans must have
retired. A guttural voice, using cultured English accents, immediately
spoke from the hedgerow above the CP dugout: "Evidently the Herr
Lieutenant is a recent arrival."


Byrd is available via FTP, and is mirrored in the "Marshall" directory
at sunsite.unc.edu. which is accessible via WWW (or so I'm told, I know
diddly about 3W.) Byrd in available via gopher in the Academic Reading Rooms
under HNSource.

Larry J

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Jun 1994 23:08:29 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: ARC: USS Arkansas

For whoever asked for the bio on the ARKANSAS, see byrd.mu.wvnet.edu
in directory /pub/history/maritime/american.bat.dir (Individual bios
and a monster file with everything you never wanted to know about
BB's that did or did not sail.)

Larry J

JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Co-Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU (Historical docs)
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 7 Jun 1994 23:33:08 -0500
From:    Ian Wingfield <iwingfie@MINET.GOV.MB.CA>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: NOST: Why We Fight!

These are absolutely classic propaganda films. They paint the German's as
gangsters so that people would rally round the war effort. They are
classics and are very instructive as far as blitzkrieg warfare tactics and
strategy!

On Tue, 7 Jun 1994, Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor, Marist Coll wrote:

> Media Alert! The Arts and Entertainment cable channel in the US
> is showing the Frank Capra classic series "Why We Fight!"
> These were produced during the war years. Check your newspapers
> for dates and times. Regards-
>
>
> Jonah Triebwasser
> Adjunct Instructor
> Marist College
> Dyson Building (Adult Education)
> Poughkeepsie, New York12601
> Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
> E-Mail: jzml@maristb.marist.edu



***************************************************************
*  Ian Wingfield                                              *
*  447 Emerson Ave.                                           *
*  Winnipeg, R2G 1G8        "A closed mouth gathers no feet"  *
*  Manitoba, Canada                                           *
*  Internet   iwingfie@minet.gov.mb.ca                        *
***************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Jun 1994 08:24:27 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <smb@NETMGRS.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Philadelphia Experiment

>       Steve uttered the following immortal words
>       >
>       > D+1 greetings to you all.
>       >
>       > some chaps here read sthg about the Philadelphia experiment during, I believe
>       > WWII? I my self have no knowledge of it, but am led to believe that it
>       > involved the attempted "invisibility" of ships by blasting them with
>       > electromagnetic forces? It apparently led to some rather serious side-effects
>       > for the crew of the respective ships. Can anyone fill in with more details?
>       >
>       > with apologies for my vagueness
>       >
>       > steve baldwin
>       > smb@netmgrs.co.uk
>       >
>
>       Giggle, mirth, merriment in extreme!
>
>       The whole Philadelphia experiment was a movie pretending to be based on
>       real events. The same sort of lunatic trash as the Bermuda Triangle (imagine
>       spooky music here).
>
>       Don't believe what you see in movies _all_ the time :)
>
>
>       Kevin Noonan
>       knoonan@cleese.apana.org.au
>
>       You seem to be batting into sticky water

Err well, glad to have brightened your day Kevin :-)
As I was only passing on to the list an RFI (request for information)
I view myself somewhat detached from the debate. The chap in question
here was well aware that it was a hoax...but was wondering whether
there was any basis in fact...

BTW with an email address of "cleese", maybe we shouldn't mention the
war at all...

regards
steve (baldwin)
smb@netmgrs.co.uk

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Jun 1994 17:37:37 +1523847
From:    Kevin Noonan <knoonan@CLEESE.APANA.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: The war (comedy)

> >       Giggle, mirth, merriment in extreme!
> >
> >       The whole Philadelphia experiment was a movie pretending to be based on
> >       real events. The same sort of lunatic trash as the Bermuda Triangle (ima
> gine
> >       spooky music here).
> >
> >       Don't believe what you see in movies _all_ the time :)
> >
> >
> >       Kevin Noonan
> >       knoonan@cleese.apana.org.au
> >
> >       You seem to be batting into sticky water
>
> Err well, glad to have brightened your day Kevin :-)
> As I was only passing on to the list an RFI (request for information)
> I view myself somewhat detached from the debate. The chap in question
> here was well aware that it was a hoax...but was wondering whether
> there was any basis in fact...
>
> BTW with an email address of "cleese", maybe we shouldn't mention the
> war at all...
>
> regards
> steve (baldwin)
> smb@netmgrs.co.uk


The War? You started it :) (americans can ignore these Fawlty references)



Kevin Noonan
knoonan@cleese.apana.org.au

You have a real feel for the history of the past, don't you?

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Jun 1994 06:58:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 8 JUN 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
THURSDAY, 8 JUNE 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): B-24s mine the Bangkok, Siam and Mergui,
Burma areas. B-25s maintain the ammunition supply to Imphal, India. In Burma,
9 B-25s pound the Imphal, India-Tiddim road and a few A-36s and P-51s hit the
enemy in the Mogaung area.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 19 P-40s bomb docks, warehouses and
military installations at Ichang and Shasi and strafe 2 cavalry units at
Nanying; 4 P-51s attack railroad traffic in the Singtai-Chengting area.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 400: 1,178 bombers and
1,353 fighter sorties are flown on communications in France to isolate German
forward elements, and airfields are bombed to prevent Luftwaffe support.
Cloud conditions prevent 400+ bombers from executing attacks.
  1. 640 B-17s are dispatched to La Frilliere (66 bomb), Orleans (36 bomb),
Rennes Airfield (30 bomb), Orleans/Les Aubrais marshalling yard (60 bomb),
Nantes (25 bomb), La Huchetiere (31 bomb), Tours/La Riche (61 bomb) and Cinq
Mars bridge (57 bomb); 18 hit Bruz, 2 hit Rennes and 13 hit targets of
opportunity; 1 B-17 is lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 63 damaged; 11
airmen are KIA and 10 MIA.
  2. 538 B-24s are dispatched to Pontaubault (67 bomb), Angers/St Laud (24
bomb), Angers (19 bomb), Le Mans/Arnage Airfield (14 bomb), Pontaubault (13
bomb), Nantes (42 bomb) and Cinq Mars bridge (55 bomb); 5 hit Dinon, 1 hits
Precey, 1 hits Cinq Mars bridge, 30 hit Grandville Harbor, 19 hit a bridge at
Rennes, 9 hit Precey and 26 hit targets of opportunity; an attack on the
Melun bridge by an Azon unit is foiled by clouds; 2 B-24s are lost, 3 damaged
beyond repair and 73 damaged; 17 airmen are KIA, 4 WIA and 20 MIA.
  Escort for the bombers is provided by 116 P-51s; they claim 3-0-1 Luftwaffe
aircraft; 2 P-51s are lost and 1 is damaged beyond repair.
  Other fighter-bomber missions are:
  1. 381 P-38s, 24 P-47s and 89 P-51s fly sweeps and patrols along the
Normandy beachhead and the Channel area; P-47s claim 1-0-0 Luftwaffe
aircraft; 3 P-51s are lost; 1 P-38 and 1 P-51 are damaged beyond repair.
  2. 333 P-47s and 526 P-51s fly fighter-bomber missions against
communications in NW France; they claim 27-2-4 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air
and 21-0-11 on the ground; 6 P-47s and 11 P-51s are lost; 1 P-51 is damaged
beyond repair.
  Overall, the fighters fly 1,405 sorties and attack nearly 75 targets; 1
pilot is KIA and 21 MIA during the day.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Around 400 B-26s attack rail and
road bridges and junctions, rail sidings, marshalling yards, town areas, fuel
storage tanks, ammunition dumps, troop concentration and strong points in the
Calais, France area. Around 1,300 fighter sorties provide support to B-26s
and high cover over the assault area, and bomb and strafe bridges,
marshalling yards, gun batteries, rail facilities, vehicles, towns, and troop
concentrations.
  125th Liaison Squadron, Ninth Air Force (attached principally to
Headquarters Command, ETO), arrives at Cheltenham, England from the US with
L-5s; first mission is in Aug 44.

  US STRATEGIC AIR FORCES IN EUROPE (USSTAF): General Carl Spaatz, Commanding
General, places oil as the first priority target for USSTAF as a result of
the destructive effect achieved by several missions against oil centers in
May 44.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 52 B-17s, with P-47 escort,
bomb the navy yard and drydocks at Pola, Yugoslavia.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, weather again restricts
activity; many medium bomber missions are abortive, though several bridges,
railroad lines, and guns are attacked; A-20s hit the town of Bolsena and
targets in the surrounding areas; fighter-bombers and fighters continue to
patrol battle areas destroying motor transport, and attacking train cars,
roads, rail lines, and enemy concentrations, as the US Fifth Army approaches
Viterbo and the British Eighth Army pushes toward Orvieto.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): During the night of 7/8 Jun,
B-24s from Eniwetok Atoll bomb Truk Atoll and Ponape Island. B-25s from Makin
Island follow up during the day with a strike against Nauru Island. In
Hawaii, 72d Fighter Squadron, 318th Fighter Group, moves from Haleiwa Field
to Mokuleia Field with P-38s; 78th Fighter Squadron, 15th Fighter Group,
moves from Mokuleia Field to Bellows Field with P-47s.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): 24 B-25s bomb a supply area
at Ratawul, New Britain Island. On Bougainville Island, 32 P-39s bomb
Tsirogei and a supply area N of Buka, Buka Island and 6 P-38s hit Monoitu
Mission.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, B-25s, P-38s,
B-24s and A-20s battle enemy fighters over Manokwari and Efman-Schouten
Island areas, bomb a small freighter off Manokwari and hit gun emplacements
and occupied areas at Kamiri, at Namber, and near Sorido; P-40s hit supply
areas and villages in the vicinity of Sarmi; and A-20s again hit Wewak area.
Thirteenth Air Task Force B-24s from the Admiralty Islands hit Truk Atoll.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Jun 1994 07:26:29 -0500
From:    John Davis <JBDML@OSBM6.OSBM.STATE.NC.US>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago Today - 08-JUN-1944

On 08-JUN-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
France - The second wave of Allied troops has finished landing. The US 1st
     Army and the British 2nd Army join up near Port-en-Bessin. Units of the
     US 4th Division and the 82nd Airborne advance towards Cherbourg. The 22nd
     Regiment of the 4th Division fail in their attempt to cross the line of
     German fortifications from Azeville to Crisbecq. The 82nd Airborne is in
     a strong fight with the German 243rd Division along the banks of the
     river Merderet. On the southern sector the 101st Airborne begins the
     battle for Carentan, trying to join up with the American V Corps as
     quickly as possible. The V Corps reaches Isigny and its 115th Regiment
     pushes south of the river Aure passing Longueville. The 26th Regiment of
     the 1st Division takes Tour-en-Bessin and Ste Anne. The Germans are able
     to withdraw most of their forces from Port-en-Bessin between the US and
     British sectors. In the British sector the 47th Regiment Royal Marines
     enter Port-en-Bessin in the early hours of the morning.

Italian Front - German resistance slows down the American advance by the US VI
     Corps (5th Army). The US II Corps is nearing Viterbo. In the British
     sector on the Adriatic coast, the British V Corps continues marching
     north as the Germans retreat. In the center of the Allied line, the South
     African 6th Armoured Division makes quick progress towards Orvieto. The
     British 6th Armoured Division is stopped west of Monte Maggiore at the
     Corese Pass.

Eastern Front - The Russian 23rd and 21st Armies of the Leningrad Front attack
     the Finnish positions in the Mannerheim line in the isthmus of Karelia,
     between Lake Ladoga to the east and the Gulf of Finland to the west. The
     Russians have been trying to negotiate Finland out of the war without
     success.

New Guinea - The islets south of Biak have been completely occupied by
     American forces. A major PT base is activated at one of the islets. On
     Biak the US 186th Infantry consolidates its positions around the
     airfield. The US 162nd Infantry encounters strong Japanese resistance in
     the area of the eastern caves on the island. In the Parai Defile area the
     Japanese put up a strong resistance to combined units of the US 163rd,
     186th and 162nd Regiments. Advance guards of the 162nd reach the
     outskirts of Mokmer. Near Aitape the Americans go on the offensive and
     come within a mile of the river Tirfoam. During the night an Allied naval
     squadron commanded by British RADM Crutchley intercepts five Japanese
     destroyers off the Schouten Islands and forces them to retire. The
     squadron is composed of 2 US light cruisers and destroyers.

Burma/China - On the Salween Front, the Chinese 88th Division achieves a
     limited penetration into the defences of Lungling. The Chinese 87th
     Division reaches the north gate of the town and breaks the Japanes supply
     route between Tengchung and Lungling.

Naval Dispatches
----------------
US submarine HARDER (SS-257) evacuates coast-watchers from the northeast
     corner of North Borneo.

US destroyer escort RICH (DE-695) sunk by mine in Normandy area.

LST 499 sunk by mine in Normandy area.

Destoyer GLENNON (DD-620) damaged by mine in Normandy area.

Destroyer MEREDITH (DD-726) damaged by mine in Normandy area.

Japanese destroyer HARUSAME sunk by Army aircraft near Biak Island, New
     Guinea.

Japanese destroyer KAZAGUMO sunk by submarine HAKE (SS-256) near
     Mindanao, P.I.

The Homefront
-------------
Labor Department Denounced -  George Meany, AFL secretary, says that the US
     Department of Labor "no longer represents the views of labor".

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  jbd@osbm.state.nc.us
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Jun 1994 07:32:24 -0500
From:    John Davis <JBDML@OSBM6.OSBM.STATE.NC.US>
Subject: Re: ARC: St. Lo, new at byrd.

> Byrd is available via FTP, and is mirrored in the "Marshall" directory
> at sunsite.unc.edu. which is accessible via WWW (or so I'm told, I know
> diddly about 3W.) Byrd in available via gopher in the Academic Reading Rooms
> under HNSource.

Larry - Byrd is available via FTP from sunsite.unc.edu also. The directory is
/pub/academic/history/marshall. Plus you can also get to it via gopher on
Sunsite. I use Sunsite because they are only 20 miles away from me.

Also, if you'd like to store my 50 Year Ago Today columns at Byrd it would be
fine with me. I can either mail you the monthly concatentated file or you can
ftp from vnet.net (/pub/jbd/50ya).

----------
John Davis (jbdml@osbm.state.nc.us)
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Jun 1994 04:50:30 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 06-08-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
06/08 Thu. Beginning shortly before midnight and continuing on 9
           June, an Allied naval force (Rear Adm. V. A. C.
           Crutchley, RN), including 2 United States light
           cruisers and destroyers, intercepts and turns back 5
           Japanese destroyers attempting to reinforce Biak
           Island, in the Schouten Islands off New Guinea.
           Submarine HARDER (SS-257) evacuates coast-watchers
           from northeast coast of North Borneo.
            United States naval vessels sunk, Normandy area:
             Destroyer escort RICH (DE-695), by mine,
              49 d. 31' N., 01 d. 10' W.
             LST-499, by mine,
              49 d. 30' N., 01 d. 10' W.
            United States naval vessels damaged, Normandy area:
             Destroyer GLENNON (DD-620), by mine,
              50 d. 32' N., 01 d. 12' W.
             Destroyer MEREDITH (DD-726), by mine,
              49 d. 33' N., 01 d. 06' W.
            Japanese naval vessels sunk:
             Destroyer HARUSAME, by Army aircraft, Biak area,
              New Guinea.
            Destroyer KAZAGUMO, by submarine HAKE (SS-256),
             Mindanao, P. I.,
             06 d. 03' N., 125 d. 57' E.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Jun 1994 07:51:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: TRV: D-Day & USS George Washington

 >>     I too am from New York, Jack, and I resent your tone to my compatriot.
 >>Gentlemanly dissent is always welcome, but I feel you are well out of line
 >>with your vulgarisms. The remark was not intended to slur anyone from New
 >>Jersey, I am sure!
 >>
 >> Bob Marion
 >> Rochester, New York
 >> Dept. of History
 >> Indiana University
 >Bob- Thanks for your comment. I have not responded to Jack because his
 >other postings are so interesting, but I am mystified as to his
 >reaction to what was clearly a humorous remark. Oh well, everyone
 >is entitled to a bad day now and then. Regards-
 >
 >Jonah Triebwasser
 >Adjunct Instructor
 >Marist College
 >Dyson Building (Adult Education)
 >Poughkeepsie, New York12601
 >Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
 >E-Mail: jzml@maristb.marist.edu

Yesterday, Jonah Triebwasser hit my VERY hot button and I responded in kind.
Some of you chastised me and I responded to several explaining my position.
Now that my VERY hot button is back in it's normal position, I would like to
take this opportunity to explain my position and reasoning to the whole
group.

I was born in the State of New Jersey and have spent 43 of my 58 years
living in a state that I am proud of.  Many of us in New Jersey are very
angry about the arrogant and condescending attitude of many New Yorkers,
especially those from New York City (NYC), towards our state.  Let me give
you two examples of this:

1. Several years ago, I was listening to a radio station in New York City
that featured recordings by Frank Sinatra.  Co-hosting the show that day was
Mario Cuomo, the Governor of New York State.  During the show, Cuomo, who
was born and raised in NYC, stated, "It's too bad that Frank Sinatra was
born in New Jersey."  This from the Governor of New York State on a radio
show that could be heard by 14 million people.  Wars have been started by
less.

2. Tony Guida is a newsperson on WCBS-TV, Channel 2 in NYC.  Several years
ago, he had the same job on WNBC-TV, Channel 4 in NYC.  One day he was in
Pennsylvania Station in NYC reporting on train delays involving trains to
New Jersey.  He did not realize the camera was on him and he had a "hot"
microphone and stated, "Who cares about New Jersey."  (Yesterday, I told
someone that he said "I don't care about New Jersey."  My dear wife corrected
me!)

This is what we get over the public airwaves from New Yorkers.  Arrogance?
Contempt?  Insensitivity?  What about "average" New Yorkers?  I have worked
with many New Yorkers over the years, most who have moved out of New York
to New Jersey, who have used the term JERSEY when talking about NEW
JERSEY.  There are many of us who find this extremely offensive.  When I ask
them if they use Hampshire for New Hampshire, Mexico for New Mexico or York
for New York, they usually just give me a blank stare as if I was speaking
Martian.  They just don't "get it."  So if there are any of you out there
who don't get it, let me explain in detail: JERSEY is one of the Channel
Islands in the English Channel off the NW coast of France; it is part of the
United Kingdom.  NEW JERSEY is that place where one-third of the battles in
the American Revolution were fought and it was the third state to approve the
US Constitution.

The terms JOICEY and NEW JOICEY are not only offensive but are usually
meant as a term of disrespect because many New Yorkers think this is the way
we talk and this is how they  usually ridicule us.  In my 43 years in this
state, I have never heard a native say JOICEY.  Jonah Triebwasser used the
term NEW JOICEY yesterday as a "humerous remark" and it really hit my VERY
hot button.  I wonder what Mr. Triebwasser and the rest of the members of
this list would say if I made some anti-Semitic remarks and called them
humerous remarks?  "Get it" now?

To those of you who were offended by my remarks yesterday, I apologize.
For those of you who have used these offensive terms in the past, please
read my remarks above; for those of you who use them in the future, be
prepared to have your paint blistered.

Jack McKillop

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Jun 1994 14:17:00 CET
From:    Fred van Wetten <CRIPFW@RULMVS.LEIDENUNIV.NL>
Subject: Re: World War II French humor <translated>

>      It was exactly that kind of cynical attitude that prepared
> the French, psychologically, for defeat in 1940.
>
> Lou Coatney

Hear, hear; a scolar on psychology and French attitude.
You have certainly convinced me that their taste for humor is directly
related to their defeat in 1940!!!!

IMO, a more cynical approache to their military strategy would have
done wonders in 1940.

Fred van Wetten           Netadress:CRIPFW@rulmvs.LeidenUniv.nl
CRI, instituut voor telecommunicatie en computerdienstverlening
RijksUniversiteit Leiden, PO BOX 9512, 2300 RA LEIDEN, The Netherlands
Tel: +31 (0)71 276933     Fax: +31 (0)71 276967

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Jun 1994 08:33:24 EDT
From:    MC <NAPEM007@SIVM.SI.EDU>
Subject: Command confirmation request (400136)

ok

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Jun 1994 08:51:39 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cossack (Destroyer)

Kevin,

     Almark Publications (London) did one of their colorful
booklets just on the Tribal class destroyers.  It is long out
of print and rare, but copies are *still* available (for $12?)
at Articles of War in Skokie, Illinois.

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Jun 1994 21:51:04 +0200
From:    John Ausland <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: GEN: BRITISH ORDERS TO TAKE NO PRISONERS?

  Oslo, June 8.  A Norwegian friend told me that a BBC film about D-Day had
stated that British troops had orders not to take any prisoners during the first
48 hours after the landing.  I have never heard this before and am wondering if
there is anything to it.  Can anyone help me?
  Since I will soon be going into a NOMAIL mode in order to catch my breath
after the emotional stress of the 50th anniversary of our landing, I would be
grateful if any reply is repeated to my EMAIL address.
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Jun 1994 09:01:23 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: World War II French humor <translated>

Careful, Fred.  You are tempting my observations on the *Dutch*
  mindset/performance against the Germans ... and Japanese.

Something about cynicism vs. naivete ....

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Jun 1994 10:06:24 -0400
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: TAC: Encirclement of Army Group Center

Lou Coatney (mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU) writes:
> 23 June 1994 is the 50th anniversary of the showpiece Soviet
>   field victory in The Great Patriotic War, "Operation Bagration,"
>   wherein an entire German *army group*(!) was annihilated in
>   White Russia/Byelorussia in a classic double envelopment
>   masterminded/prosecuted by the brilliant, iconoclastic Red Army
>   Marshal K.K. Rokossovskii.

        This encirclement was facilitated by that Hilter sycophant, Field
Marshall Ernst Busch, who seemed incapable of independent thought.  When
Hitler ordered him not to retreat, he obligingly obeyed this suicidal order.
It is a matter of debate if the Soviets would have been as successful if
they had been opposed by a competent commander.  Regardless, though, it was
a crushing defeat for the Germans and should be commemorated accordingly.
--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
It was a wasted trip, baby.  Nobody said
nothing about locking horns with no Tigers.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Jun 1994 09:11:16 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Living History magazine

If it isn't listed in any other section, I am thinking of
  putting the magazine LIVING HISTORY -- which covers Civil
  War and WWII reenacting -- with "wargames."

*Is* reenacting open-ended?  Can battles *really* be re-fought
  to different possible outcomes?

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Jun 1994 09:26:30 -0500
From:    muckb1@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: Re: GEN: BRITISH ORDERS TO TAKE NO PRISONERS?

On Wed, 8 Jun 1994, John Ausland wrote:

>   Oslo, June 8.  A Norwegian friend told me that a BBC film about D-Day had
> stated that British troops had orders not to take any prisoners during the fir
> 48 hours after the landing.  I have never heard this before and am wondering i
> there is anything to it.  Can anyone help me?
>   Since I will soon be going into a NOMAIL mode in order to catch my breath
> after the emotional stress of the 50th anniversary of our landing, I would be
> grateful if any reply is repeated to my EMAIL address.
>   Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway
>

Mr. Ausland,
        I would say that your Norwegian friend is correct.  My
grandfather has spoken of D-Day and say that the paratroopers he dropped
over France were ordered to take no prisoners.  I don't think my
grandfather approved of this because he said he wonders how many Germans
never returned home, because instead of being taken prisoner, they were
executed on the spot.

C.K. Bryant
muckb1@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu
*******************************************************************
"The Riskier the road, the greater the profit."    / C.K. Bryant
        The 62nd Rule of Acquisition               / W.I.U. English
*******************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Jun 1994 09:56:30 -0500
From:    "Sidney W. Kitchel" <kitchel@OCTOPUS.DPSI.COM>
Subject: GEN: _American Experience_: D-Day Remembered (was: MEDIA: Video tapes)

        Thanks, Joe, for the offer to copy video tapes. I was going to
write about getting the _American Experience_ episode on D-Day. But
before I wrote, I called our PBS affiliate here, WTIU. They claim that
"D-Day Remembered" will be shown on June 12th at 3:00 p.m. The thing I
don't know is whether that is strictly here in Bloomington or on the
whole PBS network.
        If you missed the episode and are located in the U.S., you
might want to check your PBS station to see if it is showing "D-Day
Remembered" again.
                                                        --Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel           kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Jun 1994 09:56:42 CDT
From:    jesse carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject: Jesse out from THUR.-MON.

Guys ;

I will be out of the office Thursday -- Monday.
Will return on Tuesday.

Jesse Carnes
(greatest lover of the B-17 Flying Fortress)
notjic@lsuvm.sncc.lsu.edu
------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Jun 1994 16:01:47 GMT,BST
From:    John Gillies <JOHNG@PSY.GLA.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: GEN: BRITISH ORDERS TO TAKE NO PRISONERS?

> On Wed, 8 Jun 1994, John Ausland wrote:
>
> >   Oslo, June 8.  A Norwegian friend told me that a BBC film about D-Day had
> > stated that British troops had orders not to take any prisoners during the fir
> > 48 hours after the landing.  I have never heard this before and am wondering i
> > there is anything to it.  Can anyone help me?
> >   Since I will soon be going into a NOMAIL mode in order to catch my breath
> > after the emotional stress of the 50th anniversary of our landing, I would be
> > grateful if any reply is repeated to my EMAIL address.
> >   Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway
> >
>
> Mr. Ausland,
>         I would say that your Norwegian friend is correct.  My
> grandfather has spoken of D-Day and say that the paratroopers he dropped
> over France were ordered to take no prisoners.  I don't think my
> grandfather approved of this because he said he wonders how many Germans
> never returned home, because instead of being taken prisoner, they were
> executed on the spot.
>
> C.K. Bryant
> muckb1@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu
> *******************************************************************
> "The Riskier the road, the greater the profit."    / C.K. Bryant
>         The 62nd Rule of Acquisition               / W.I.U. English
> *******************************************************************

I was at a most interesting colloquium here in Glasgow to commemorate
D-Day. Among the participants was Professor N. Grist, who - as a
medical officer - landed with the British forces at H+2 on the
morning of 6th June, 1944. A questioner asked specifically about
this rumour and Prof. Grist denied any knowledge of such a policy. He
said that, almost as soon as they had landed, his team were treating
wounded German troops as well as their own casualties. It is possible
that the paratroops had such orders but, according to this witness at
least, there was no such general policy in operation.
John


John Gillies
Department of Psychology
Adam Smith Building
University of Glasgow
Glasgow  G12 8RT                      Tel: (0)41 339 8855 ext.5351
Scotland
                         johng@psy.gla.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Jun 1994 10:08:18 CDT
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Living History magazine

Is Living History back in publication?  I had a subscription to it
several years back, and ti went defunct, and I ended up getting another
magazine for a couple of months until we were "even" with my
subcription?  If it is up and running again I'd like an address.

I would list it with History rather than wargames---reenactments really
aren;t trying to refight the battle, they are to educate people and
creats some fun for the participant.  I'm sure battles could be refought
to different out comes, but that is assuming that all factors are equal.
Reenacting can;t really take into account firepower and fear.  It also
doesn;t really play morale into the formula as well--all reenactors are
happy to be there--not some unhappy draftee who has been defeated in
about a dozen battles previously.

BTW, I saw listed in the latest Globe Militaria cataloge the French
Magazine Militaria is now being published in English.  They had the
first edition listed.  I am going to order it from Globe and then
subscribe to it in English.  Even if you can't read French, the back
editions of Militaria are incredible just for the phots of uniforms and
equipment.  It is well worth the money (about $12 an edition).  I'm
guessing in English it is pretty pricey for a subscription, but it is
the BEST magazine on the market for uniforms and equipment.  I'm
guessing a subscription is about $100 or more a year.

I also discovered that National Capital Historical Sales in the DC area
is selling reproduction US M-38/41 Field Jackets for $125.  They are
made somewhere in the orient, and they look pretty good, although I
haven;t seen the lining of one.  I'll probably pick one up in the next
couple months.

TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Jun 1994 11:35:15 -0400
From:    Max Calderwood <maxc@URSUS1.URSUS.MAINE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Living History magazine

Tim,

Could you please post the address of National Capital Sales?

I have been looking for a repro M38/41 field jacket for AGES and not
even New Columbia makes one (at least they didnt the last time I
checked).

I hate to drag the few originals through the mud since they are getting
so scarce.

Thanks
Max C. Calderwood
University of Southern Maine
Gorham, ME
MAXC@URSUS1.URSUS.MAINE.EDU

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Jun 1994 12:07:08 EDT
From:    Doug McCabe <mccabe@OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: RIP John Wilhelm

                   Ohio University Electronic Communication


   Date:  08-Jun-1994 12:06pm EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject:  RIP John Wilhelm


    John Remsen Wilhelm, 78, dean emeritus of the College of Communication
    at Ohio University and an American correspondent assigned to cover the
    D-Day invasion for the British news agency Reuters, died at 6:45 a.m.
    EST, June 6, 1994, the 50th anniversary of D-Day.  [This was exactly 50
    years from his posting in a landing craft just off the beach in
    Normandy.]
    His death, at the Creighton Center of Collington Epsicopal Life Care
    Community, was due to pneumonia and asthma complications, according to
    his relatives.
    Although in poor health in recent years, he had filed one last story in
    May for Reuters recalling his experiences landing on the "Easy Red"
    sector of Omaha Beach.  The story was transmitted world-wide from the
    Reuters London features desk May 29.
    "John Wilhelm was a legendary war correspondent and a great character
    who will be sadly missed," said Anthony Winning, Reuters News Editor
    for Europe.  "We were delighted to get his gripping memoir which ran on
    the Reuter wire as one of the center pieces of our D-Day anniversary
    package of stories."
    Seaghan Maynes, a Reuter D-Day correspondent at Utah Beach, said
    Wilhelm was "a terribly likable and courageous fellow who knew he was
    putting his life at risk covering the war the way he did.  I will never
    forget the lead he wrote when the Allies crossed the Siegfried Line
    into Germany: 'In a Wagnerian scene of mist and flames, American troops
    smashed into the Seigfried Line today.'"
    Wilhelm continued with Allied units across the European theater to the
    meeting with Soviet forces at the Elbe River.
    Wilhelm had been a correspondent in the post-war period in England,
    Argentina, and Mexico for the _Chicago Sun_, and later for McGraw-Hill
    publications.  Previously he had been a reporter for the _Chicago
    Tribune_ and editorial employee for the United Press in Detroit and New
    York.  He graduated from the University of Minnesota School of
    Journalism.  He was also the Director of OU's School of Journalism and
    Dean of the College of Communication.
    Wilhelm created "Normandy Park," believed to be the only memorial to
    World War II correspondents, on the Ohio University campus.  A grove of
    apple trees from Normandy were sent for the June 6, 1981 dedication of
    the park by the France-Amerique Society of Paris.
    Wilhelm is also remembered for securing the Cornelius Ryan Collection
    for the University library through his wartime friendship with Ryan,
    the WWII correspondent and author of _The Longest Day_, the classic
    account of the D-Day invasion.  The collection is believed to be the
    largest grouping of D-Day archives outside of official government
    records and contains the recollections of several thousand veterans and
    civilians about the invasion and the two other battle books of Ryan's,
    _A Bridge Too Far_ and _The Last Battle_.  Ryan introduced Wilhelm to
    his future wife, Peggy Maslin, when she was a Red Cross worker in
    France.  Their war-time wedding in the Dutch town of Maastricht was
    featured in _Life_ magazine in January 1945.
    The family requests that in lieu of flowers, contributions be made to
    the John R. Wilhelm Foreign Correspondent Internship Fund, E.W. Scripps
    School of Journalism, Ohio University, Athens, Ohio 45701.  A memorial
    service will be conducted Thursday, June 9, 1994 at the Collington
    Episcopal Life Care Community, 10450 Lottsford Road, Mitchellville,
    Maryland 20721.
              -- End of Press Release --

    I can add a few things:

    Wilhelm crossed the beach on D+1, first getting a good dunking in the
    surf and losing his typewriter.  Working his way through the water he
    had to work around still-floating bodies.  He was the reporter who
    broke the story of the first visit to the Continent after D-Day by
    Eisenhower, General Marshal, and Churchill.  Later, flying in an
    observation plane to see the beginning of COBRA he watched as the
    signal bomb fell short and set up the massive bombing of our own
    troops.  In another incident, he nearly lost his clearance when he
    drove through the lines and was the first American to enter the French
    town of Vannes, freshly wrested from the Germans by the Maquis.  He was
    one of the first reporters to enter Paris and "captured" the old
    Reuters bureau in that city before moving on.  For some time he was
    assigned to cover the American Third Army and got along so well with
    Patton that he received his own jeep, driver, and a nickname, "Chicago
    Kid."  Wilhelm was also one of the first correspondents at the Remagen
    Bridge after its capture and reported how a Chicago native was the GI
    who shot the detonator cord, saving the bridge.  Just days later
    Wilhelm returned to the bridge and got out an early report on the
    bridge's collapse, killing 100 American engineers.  Later, he was one
    of eight men (half of them reporters) who liberated the infamous
    Buchenwald concentration and extermination camp.

    A long and fruitful life - may he rest in peace.

    Doug McCabe
    mccabe@ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu



Received:  08-Jun-1994 12:07pm

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Jun 1994 09:50:11 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: NOST: Why We Fight!

WHY WE FIGHT wartime series "paint the Germans as gangsters..." someone
said  here.
How absolutely *awful*.
'Makes one wonder whatever *gave* Capra such an idea...

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Jun 1994 09:57:01 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: GEN: BRITISH ORDERS TO TAKE NO PRISONERS?

Ah, hearsay. Gospel, you know.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Jun 1994 13:17:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: SBD-2, BuNo 2106

The following is from SHIPMATE, a publication for the alumni of the US
Naval Academy.

HISTORIC AIRCRAFT AT NAVAL AIRCRAFT MUSEUM
------------------------------------------

A most historic World War II aircraft has recently arrived at the National
Museum of Naval Aviation in Pensacola, Florida.

The aircraft, a Douglas SBD-2 Dauntless dive bomber, was recovered from
Lake Michigan recently.  While on a training mission in Jun 43, Donald A.
Douglas, a Marine Aviator, crashed the Dauntless into the lake where it
rested on the bottom in the cold, fresh water for almost 50 years.

The aircraft, USN BuNo 2106, was flown in several significant battles
including the Battle of Midway, during World War II.

Captain Mark T. Whittier, USN (Retired), recently wrote that a check of his
log book reveals that he flew a total of 149 hours in this SBD-2 while
assigned to Bombing Squadron Two (VB-2) in USS Lexington (CV-2).  Included
among these flights was the "prize ride" of his career, a 1942 mission
across the Owen Stanley Mountains of New Guinea to attack a Japanese
cruiser and two transports at Lae and Salamaua.  Pushing over into a dive,
Whittier pickled his 1,000-pound (453.5 kg) bomb, and was rewarded with a
hit on a Japanese cruiser and an eventual awarding of the Navy Cross.

On 4 Jun 42, BuNo 2106 rumbled into the early morning sky over Midway
Island with 16 other SBD-2s of Marine Scout- or Dive Bomber Squadron Two
Forty One (VMSB-241).  Flying in the aircraft that day was First Lieutenant
Daniel Iverson, USMC, and his gunner Private First Class (PFC) Wallace J.
Reid, USMC.  Spotting the Japanese fleet about two hours later, Iverson and
his squadronmates commenced their bombing runs.  Iverson's SBD was quickly
jumped by two Japanese fighters, which followed him down during his
1,200-foot (366 meter) dive.  Exiting the target area at full throttle,
Iverson immediately came under fire from his attackers, which by this time
had been joined by two of their comrades.  Pursuing him for about 30 miles
(48 km), the tormenting Zekes succeeded in putting 219 rounds into the
escaping Dauntless, one severing Iverson's throat microphone cord and
another wounding Reid in the foot.  In addition, the aircraft's hydraulic
system and airspeed indicator were knocked out.  Finally, Iverson was able
to maneuver BuNo 2106 into the clouds and eventually guide it back to
Midway.  Unfortunately, no hits were obtained on the Japanese carriers
during the attack, although BuNo 2106 possibly scored a near miss on HIRYU.
For their valiant efforts, Lieutenant Iverson was awarded the Navy Cross
and PFC Reid received the Distinguished Flying Cross (DFC).

This lucky Dauntless, which comes complete with guns, ammunition, life
raft, and "Midway Madness" painted on the cowl, truly seems to become more
historical by the day.  In addition to Whittier, they have located the
family of Wallace J. Reid, who was killed in Korea in 1950.  Iverson
perished in a training accident at NAS Melbourne, Florida, during World War
II, but they are still seeking his family or any old acquaintances.  They
are also still in search of Donald A. Douglas, a Marine Aviator who ditched
the plane in Lake Michigan in Jun 43.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Jun 1994 13:57:36 -0400
From:    Kevin Kamphaus <kamphaus@PETSYS.AE.GE.COM>
Subject: Re: SBD-2, BuNo 2106

Great story!  What kind of shape was the airframe etc. in?

Kevin Kamphaus
kamphaus@petsys.ae.ge.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Jun 1994 14:03:11 -0400
From:    Martha Wheless <lingua@CCPO.ODU.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN: _American Experience_: D-Day Remembered (was: MEDIA: Video
         tapes)

Hello all,

        In response to Sidney's suggestion, I checked with my PBS
affiliate (Norfolk) and they are not planning to show the D-Day
episode any time in the near future.  I gather that each locality has
its own programming schedule.

        A head's up on another great WWII show:  last night (Tues)
my PBS station ran a FIGHTER PILOT'S STORY.  This show details the
training and missions of American fighter pilot Quentin Aanenson.
The film has a lot of good gun flicks, fighter engagements, etc
all on archival film.  You really get a sense of what being a
WWII pilot entailed and of how lucky this man is to still be
alive.  I strongly recommend this show.

Unfortunately we were not quick enough with the video tape last
night, so if anyone out there was more on the ball and taped it
I would love to have a copy.  Or if it is yet to be shown on
your PBS station, or will be repeated, can I arrange to get
a copy from someone.  (My station has not plans to rerun it yet).

        As always, thanks for all your help in advance.

martha wheless
lingua@ccpo.odu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Jun 1994 16:01:25 -0230
From:    Stephen Cloutier <cloutier@MORGAN.UCS.MUN.CA>
Subject: Re: Philadelphia Experiment

  I'm not sure about historical fact, but there was a movie called
the Philadelphia Experiment released in the mid-1980s which starred
Micheal Pare and Nancy Allen.  Pare's character was thrown into the
future as a result of an experiment to ake naval ships invisible to
radar.  As I say I don't know if it is based on historical fact.  I
hope this helps in some way.

Steve Cloutier
Memorial University
St. John's, Newfoundland

On Tue, 7 Jun 1994, Stephen Baldwin wrote:

> D+1 greetings to you all.
>
> some chaps here read sthg about the Philadelphia experiment during, I believe
> WWII? I my self have no knowledge of it, but am led to believe that it
> involved the attempted "invisibility" of ships by blasting them with
> electromagnetic forces? It apparently led to some rather serious side-effects
> for the crew of the respective ships. Can anyone fill in with more details?
>
> with apologies for my vagueness
>
> steve baldwin
> smb@netmgrs.co.uk
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Jun 1994 15:36:44 EDT
From:    JohnS426@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: TAC: Encirclement of...

With respect to Joe Barone's comment on Operation Bagration. Someone said -
to have a Cannae you need not only a Hannibal but also a Varro.
JOhn sloan
johns426@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Jun 1994 16:07:51 EDT
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <hb9388@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Congrats to Tim Scherrer!

Congratulations to Tim Scherrer!

I saw this week's Army Times and he was selected for promotion
to captain in the US Army Reserve.  Way to go!

Barry

Barrett F. Lowe               RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, West Point  (e-mail:  hb9388%usma6@trotter.usma.edu)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Jun 1994 16:13:56 -0400
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: GEN: _American Experience_: D-Day Remembered (was: MEDIA: Video
         tapes)

Martha,

        I have the PBS "American Experience" available on VHS.  If
you're interested in a copy, let me know.  (I didn't get the first
few minutes, though.)

                        Joe

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Jun 1994 17:10:59 EDT
From:    SKIP WILDER <PHSP11A@PRODIGY.COM>
Subject: Re: Living History

For Max Calderwood:

        National Capital Historical Sales, Inc.
        7721-D Fullerton Road
        Springfield, Virginia 22153
        (703) 569-6663


        Regards,

 -----------------------------------------------------------
 |    Skip Wilder              |                           |
 |    phsp11a@prodigy.com      |"The road to hell is paved |
 |    FAX (703)528-2103        | with good intentions."    |
 |    McLean, Virginia, U.S.A. |                           |
 -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Jun 1994 17:02:52 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: RIP John Wilhelm

Dear Doug!

Thank you very much for that post on Mr. Wilhelm. His passing like so
many others these days is an all too frequent occurrence.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Jun 1994 15:12:32 PST
From:    "Jones, Scott T." <sjones@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: TRV: Volkswagens

     Yet another trivia question from me...

     Is it true that the VW *Bug* was designed by the Germans for use as a
     troop carrier THROUGH water obstacles? I understand that they were
     designed with air/water tight construction features for this purpose.
     Are there any other attempts by the Nazis to design/build vehicles
     designed to negotiate water obstacles?

     Scott

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
     Scott T. Jones                | "Anything adjustable  will sooner or later
     Dahlgren, VA 22448  USA       |  need adjustment."- Ancient VW Proverb
     Internet: Sjones@LOGICON.COM  |
_____________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Jun 1994 17:13:57 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN: BRITISH ORDERS TO TAKE NO PRISONERS?

Hello, John!

>   Oslo, June 8.  A Norwegian friend told me that a BBC film about D-Day had
> stated that British troops had orders not to take any prisoners during the first
> 48 hours after the landing.

    Why during the first 48 hours of landing? Seems strange to me and
I, too, have never heard of that. Was this explained perhaps in the
documentary, and, did your friend have the name of it? Usually the
BBC documentaries are good, and I find it strange that they would
produce something like this.

I have never heard this before and am wondering if
> there is anything to it.  Can anyone help me?

    Hope this helps. I have never heard of this, and doubt that this
was done. It seems to me that this may have been a reference to
something else that had a 48 hour time limit.

    Anyway, that is my two cents' worth on it.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Jun 1994 18:00:27 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Henning von Treschkow

Hello, Gudmundur!

Tomorrow, I will post to you and other interested parties the
military career of General der Panzertruppen Hermann Balck.

More tomorrow, and sorry it has taken so long.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 08:41:28 +1000
From:    George PISZCZUK <PHGPI@CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU>
Subject: Is the KAYTN Thesis at BYRD?

Lou,

        Have you put a copy of your KAYTN Thesis on Byrd ?

George

  -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Piszczuk                          Email: PHGPI@cc.newcastle.edu.au
  University of Newcastle                  Phone: (049) 215440
  Australia                                Fax  : (049) 216907
  -------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Jun 1994 22:34:02 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Congrats to Tim Scherrer!

>I saw this week's Army Times and he was selected for promotion
>to captain in the US Army Reserve.  Way to go!

Cpt. Tim!! Just for us, have your company run a few miles this weekend.

;-) -Al "All the way - Airborne"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Wild, LAN Mgr.  Father of 1.5             Voice:          (401) 792-2611
ACC - Lippitt - URI  American Legion Post 102. FAX:            (401) 792-5479
Kingston, RI  02881                            Bitnet:           AWild@URIACC
                                               Internet: AWild@URIACC.URI.EDU
Murphy's Paradox:

  Doing it the hard way is always easier.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Jun 1994 21:19:56 MDT
From:    Yvonne Youngberg <yyoungbe@ACS.UCALGARY.CA>
Subject: Re: GEN: BRITISH ORDERS TO TAKE NO PRISONERS?

While watching the copious coverage of the D-Day commemoration on
CBC Newsworld, I heard at least one veteran mention that Canadian
troops had orders not to take prisoners in the initial assault.
The veteran mentioned that while he was not totally comfortable
with the order, there was simply no way to deal with any
prisoners which might be taken in the early stages of the battle.
He also noted that watching his friends killed on the beaches
certainly made the orders easier to carry out.

I'll check through the material I taped to see if I can confirm
the above details.

Yvonne Youngberg

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 7 Jun 1994 to 8 Jun 1994
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 50 messages totalling 2362 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. TRV: Volkswagens (10)
  2. Living History magazine
  3. [INF] USAAF 9 JUN 44
  4. Unknown flag in Normandy (fwd) (8)
  5. SBD-2, BuNo 2106 (4)
  6. AAF REMEMBRANCES
  7. USN COMMEMORATES D-DAY
  8. INF: USN Chronology 06-09-94
  9. INF: 50 Years Ago Today - 09-JUN-1944 (9)
 10. Schwimmwagen (2)
 11. General Hermann Balck
 12. Jets
 13. Re[2]: Henning von Treschkow
 14. Living History
 15. NAZI MURDER OF TWO BRITISH PATAROOPERS IN NORMANDY SOLVED
 16. horizontal bombing
 17. GEN: D-DAY AND A FEW DAYS THAT FOLLOWED (3)
 18. Re[2]: Unknown flag in Normandy (fwd)
 19. Re[2]: Living History
 20. TRIV Amphib. VWs and Panzer "Blue Book"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Jun 1994 21:27:50 -0700
From:    Ed Kettler <deradler@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: TRV: Volkswagens

There were two variants of the VW used by German forces during WW2:  The
Kubelwagen and the Schwimmwagen.  The Kubelwagen resembles "The Thing"
(actually, vice versa) and the Schwimmwagen had a curved boat hull with a
propellor drive at the stern.

Ed Kettler                                       deradler@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Jun 1994 21:34:41 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: TRV: Volkswagens

AS you know, the VW "People's Car"was originally designed as a sort of
car for everybody (civilian) in germany, pre-war.
        In practice, most ended up being used as German army vehicles.
There was also the Kubelwagen, that slab-sided army version (which quite
in defiance of every marketing possibility was actually sold in the
United States in the 1970s ("The Thing")
To get to your question about a water-Bug -- I recall that VWs were
*adapted* for use in watery conditions and shallow river crossings, by
the simple fitting of a lengthy exhaust pipe, placed vertically from the
engine, so as to clear well above the surface of water.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 15:20:42 +1000
From:    Mick Fauchon <ulmjf@DEWEY.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: TRV: Volkswagens

        Hi Sidney,

> AS you know, the VW "People's Car"was originally designed as a sort of
> car for everybody (civilian) in germany, pre-war.
>         In practice, most ended up being used as German army vehicles.
> There was also the Kubelwagen, that slab-sided army version (which quite

        In fact, wartime production was given over substantially to the
K"ubel, which wasn't difficult, as the shared common components, except
for the bodywork.

> To get to your question about a water-Bug -- I recall that VWs were
> *adapted* for use in watery conditions and shallow river crossings, by
> the simple fitting of a lengthy exhaust pipe, placed vertically from the
> engine, so as to clear well above the surface of water.

        Not quite. The bodywork of the Schwimmwagen was totally different
to the K"afer (Beetle) or K"ubelwagen, to make it (almost) amphibious.
For one thing, it had no doors. The exhaust pipe was placed on the rear
bodywork above the engine compartment, and the transmission was coupled to
a propellor by means of a lever operated from the driver's compartment if
you wanted to go amphibious.

                                                        Cheers,

                                                        Mick.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 8 Jun 1994 11:24:55 -0400
From:    Walter O'Hara <wohara@CAP.GWU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Living History magazine

Lou:

Is Living History still in business?  I contributed to a couple of
articles for them back in the mid-to-late 80s.  I thought they folded due
to low subscription levels.

Walt O'Hara
wohara@cap.gwu.edu
oharaw@netcom.com
oharaw@cpark.bah.com



On Wed, 8 Jun 1994, Louis R. Coatney wrote:

> If it isn't listed in any other section, I am thinking of
>   putting the magazine LIVING HISTORY -- which covers Civil
>   War and WWII reenacting -- with "wargames."
>
> *Is* reenacting open-ended?  Can battles *really* be re-fought
>   to different possible outcomes?

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 12:00:23 CET
From:    "LTC Donnell, Doug" <4atf@PIRMASENS-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Re: TRV: Volkswagens

Hi Scott and all,

To the best of my knowledge the VW Bug was designed (by Ferdinand
Porsche BTW) to be an inexpensive "people's car" -- something for the
average worker.  The prototype was rolled out in the 1930s and was
supposed to go into production until the war intervened and the
Volkswagen factory began turning out military vehicles.  Nonetheless,
german workers could buy "bugs" on a sort of installment plan for
later delivery.  I seem to remember that workers could buy stamps, put
them in a book and when the book was full, they could turn it in for a
car.  Volkswagen honored these after they rebuilt following the war.

I don't believe that the "bug" was designed with military purposes in
mind.
                             Doug Donnell

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 06:42:03 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>
Subject: Re: TRV: Volkswagens

Except for a few display models, I don't think the Bug actually went into
production. Instead it became something like War Bonds here--or a scam,
if you prefer. Thousands of German workers signed up to buy one on the
installment plan. Delivery would come with the end of the war. I wonder
if any of these contracts were ever enforced upon the Volkswagen company?

Apart from the fact that it didn't really exist, that pre-war Bug had
another disadvantage: no rear window.

            - Dan      <dan.ford@unh.edu>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 06:48:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 9 JUN 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
FRIDAY, 9 JUNE 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 5 B-25s carry out a strike on
the Imphal, India-Tiddim road while 20+ others continue to supply ammunition
to the Imphal area; 40+ A-36s, P-51s, and P-40s hit Myitkyina, Mogaung and
Kadu.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, P-40s, P-51s and B-25s fly 200+
sorties against numerous targets throughout the Tungting Lake area; river
shipping of all description is pounded, several troop concentrations are
attacked, airfields at Hankow and Wuchang are bombed, and the towns of
Ichang, Siangyin, Yuankiang and Kiaotow are hit; and 4 B-24 and fighter-
bomber sorties over the S China Sea result in claims of 3 sea going vessels,
a tug and a barge sunk.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Bad weather prevents bomber
operations; P-38s attempt to cover shipping in the English Channel; 7th
Photographic Group (Reconnaissance) dispatches 5 aircraft but they all turn
back due to weather; and 2 B-17s fly weather flights over the UK and the
Atlantic Ocean.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): HQ 70th Fighter Wing moves from
Ibsley, England to Criqueville, France; and 112th Liaison Squadron, Ninth Air
Force (attached principally to Headquarters Command, ETO) arrives at Kingston
Deverill, England from the US with L-5s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Around 500 B-17s and B-24s
attack targets in Germany and Italy; B-17s hit the industrial area and air
depot at Munich, Germany; B-24s also hit the industrial area and ordinance
depot at Munich and oil storage at Porto Marghera, Italy; P-47s, P-38s and
P-51s fly 250+ sorties in support of the Munich raids; the bombers and
fighters claim 30+ aircraft destroyed; 13 AAF aircraft are lost.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium bombers again hit
enemy communications, bombing bridges with good results; light bombers hit
targets of opportunity in the Acquapendente area; fighter-bombers and
fighters continue to pound motor transport retreating up the Italian
peninsula, and to bomb roads and railways in the path of the enemy retreat,
as the US Fifth Army reaches Viterbo, where the British Eighth Army shortly
makes contact with it; and 86th Bombardment Squadron (Light), 47th
Bombardment Group (Light), moves from Vesuvious Airfield to Ponte Galeria
with A-20s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): During the night of 8/9 Jun
B-24s from Eniwetok Atoll bomb Truk Atoll.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 32
B-25s, 20 P-39s and 5 P-38s pound supplies and gun positions in the Rataaul-
Talili Bay area; 5 other B-25s attack a pier at New Massava Plantation and
railroad to Mandres Saw Mill. On Buka Island, P-39s hit the town of Buka, a
supply area to the N of the airfield, and Arigua Plantation.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): B-24s bomb the airfield on
Peleliu Island, Palau Islands. In New Guinea, A-20s bomb shipping in
Manokwari harbor; B-24s, A-20s, B-25s and P-39s, along with Royal Australian
Air Force (RAAF) planes, drop about 140 tons of bombs on various targets in
the Wewak area; and 39th Fighter Squadron, 35th Fighter Group, moves from
Gusap to Nadzab with P-47s. B-24s of Thirteenth Air Task Force bomb Alet
Airfield and targets of opportunity in Truk Atoll.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 06:57:19 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>
Subject: Unknown flag in Normandy (fwd)

Can anyone help this person? (I'd like to know the answer too!)

            - Dan      <dan.ford@unh.edu>

---------- Forwarded message ----------

     I noticed, during television coverage of the 50th anniversary, on
the graves at the American cemetery in Normandy and at other places,
three flags: American, French, and one I had not seen before.  It was
white, with a red symbol that resembled the number "10," with a bar
joining the "1" and the "10."  Does anybody know what that third flag
is?
     As best I can reproduce it in ASCII, it looked like:


----------------------------
|                          |
|                          |
|                          |
|                          |
|       __      ____       |
|       | |    / __ \      |
|       | |___| |  | |     |
|       |  ___  |  | |     |
|       | |   | |  | |     |
|       | |    \ --  /     |
|       ---     \---/      |
|                          |
|                          |
|                          |
|                          |
----------------------------
                                Thanks for any help,
                                Merlin Dorfman
                                DORFMAN@NETCOM.COM

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 07:10:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: SBD-2, BuNo 2106

RE: SBD-2, BuNo 2106

 >Great story!  What kind of shape was the airframe etc. in?
 >
 >Kevin Kamphaus
 >kamphaus@petsys.ae.ge.com
 >

Kevin, I think the aircraft is either on, or will shortly be on,
display so the airframe should be in great shape.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 08:13:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: AAF REMEMBRANCES

FROM THE AIR FORCE NEWS AGENCY



360.  D-Day plus 50 years
361.  D-Day:  being there
362.  Looking for dad
363.  Cambridge ceremony
364.  Cronkite talks D-Day
365.  Remembering the women of World War II
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
360.  D-Day plus 50 years
by TSgt. David P. Masko
Air Force News Service
     UTAH BEACH, Normandy -- As two presidents stood together on Utah
Beach, the national anthem played and with it thousands of onlookers
smiled with the knowledge that the day had come to commemorate the 50th
anniversary of the vast Normandy invasion.
     The Utah Beach ceremony was the first to be hosted by President
Clinton and Francois Mitterrand, president of France.
     As a steady drizzle came down, the somber weather seemed to
reflect the mood of the day-long ceremonies.
     All along the Normandy beaches on June 6 each nation mourned the
people it lost on D-Day, 50 years ago.  The United States and French
marked ceremonies at Utah Beach where Clinton and Mitterrand laid
wreaths as a tribute to those who died.
     Clinton led a moving ceremony at Pointe du Hoc early in the day to
mark the heroic efforts by American soldiers who knocked out the six
big 155mm howitzer guns the Germans used to cover both Utah and Omaha
beaches.
     Prior to the Pointe du Hoc ceremony, thousands of people crammed
on a sea wall to watch 14 Allied soldiers wade from a landing craft on
the Normandy beach while each carried his nation's flag.  The 14
soldiers symbolized the countries who made up the invasion forces.
     At a previous day's ceremony, Clinton summed up the reason for the
D-Day events, saying too many Americans do not know what this
generation of World War II veterans did.
     The main international event of the day was the commemoration at
Omaha Beach and the American cemetery at Colleville-Sur-Mer in the
presence of Clinton and other heads of state.
     Colleville-Sur-Mer is one of the most famous, and biggest,
graveyards in the world.  With more than 9,300 graves, its rows of pure
white crosses -- faced west toward the United States--are not easy to
forget.
     "We hit the beach and I turned around for my friend.  He just fell
to my right and died.  This was Omaha Beach...," said Michael James, a
former member of the Army's 4th Division.
     At Omaha Beach this day it was hard not to feel sad, not to cry
with the old World War II veterans.  Here, 3,000 Americans lost their
lives.
     The shoreline around Utah and Omaha is still laced with trenches
and German pillboxes.
     At Omaha Beach, for example, there are pictures of how it looked
on D-Day and a story of how the Army's 1st Division took the beach's
eastern half, clearing the way for 35,000 men and thousands of tons of
equipment.
     Near the west end of Omaha Beach, Clinton paused with thousands of
veterans, active duty members and tourists at the National Guard
Memorial.  Here, they could remember the "home town boys" who
volunteered to fight and, eventually, die together.
     The gray sky reminded one veteran of the smoke all over the beach
during D-Day.  He said the Germans' big guns and grenade explosions,
along with the rat-tat-tat of machine guns, made this beach "really
something."
     The veteran said he would like to go over to the German graveyard
at Normandy after seeing Colleville-Sur-Mer.  "I don't hold anything
against the Germans," he said.  "They were following orders.  They
didn't know."
     For Staff Sergeant Robert Ziesche, a former Army Air Forces
loadmaster with the 438th Troop Carrier Group, there's a feeling that
this D-Day celebration will be the last "big" commemoration of World
War II.
     "Many of my friends won't be around much longer.  And we won't
ever see anything like what we saw here today," Ziesche said.
     As for all the stately displays seen at the Normandy beaches
6 June, Ziesche said it's "really not about presidents or the queen
of England, etc."
     "It's about the troops I helped load in the C-47s on D-Day.
That's what it's all about."
     On the evening of 5 June 1944, Ziesche recalled his C-47 and
Army paratroopers being in on General Dwight Eisenhower's agenda.
     "We couldn't believe it.  There he was, Ike."
     By the time darkness started to fall over Normandy -- the beaches
of Omaha, Utah, Sword, Juno and Gold -- veterans of the Army's 29th
Division had set up a formation near the water where D Company hit the
beach.  Each man, with his World War II medals and worn-out uniforms,
just cried and sang...and saluted one last time.
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
361.  D-Day:  being there
by TSgt. David P. Masko
Air Force News Service
     NORMANDY, France -- Urgent:  6 June 1944, 0915 hours local "Under
the command of General Eisenhower, Allied naval forces, supported by
strong air forces, began landing Allied armies this morning on the
Northern coast of France."
     This is the text of a press release that Eisenhower scrawled on
a pad of paper after his decision to attack on D-Day.
     Here, 50 years later, under the same sullen sky, the 14 Allied
nations that participated in the invasion commemorated the day when
Normandy's landing beaches were packed with men and machines.
     Operation Overlord -- the D-Day code name -- was the largest, most
complex and hazardous amphibious operation ever undertaken.  The
invading fleet included 8,000 aircraft, 1,200 warships, 4,000 landing
craft and 1,600 other ships.  Eisenhower called it "The Great Crusade."
     Today, Normandy is 50 miles (80 km) of coastline filled with
monuments to the war.  You can still see every hedgerow that the
soldiers had to fight in, and if you follow a French sign saying
"Circuit do Debarquent," there's a landing where you can see Utah
Beach where American troops fought their way inland under heavy German
fire.
     Down this stretch coast is probably the most famous plot of land
-- Omaha Beach.  It is here where thousands of Americans died.  It is
here where Private First Class Sandy Conti said "you were taught how
to shoot and kill."
     Conti, a former civil engineer in the Army Air Forces, said his
unit hit Omaha without losing a man.  However, after advancing, "We had
enough experience of death to last a lifetime."
     For 36 hours prior to the invasion on the Normandy landing beaches
-- Utah, Omaha, Gold, Juno, Sword -- Army Air Forces bombers and
fighters from the Eighth and Ninth Air Forces had reached a high degree
of technical perfection in keeping the skies free of German airpower.
     To continue with this mission, a directive from Lieutenant General
Carl Spaatz ordered engineers to build airfields on Normandy beaches
after the invasion.
     For example, on the dawn of 6 June 1944, Conti remembers seeing
Allied propeller-driven fighters looking for a place to land.
     "It was our job to wade ashore and build forward airfields for
the P-47 fighters," he said.  "We were not so concerned with killing
Germans as to getting airstrip A5 built.  After the fighting let up, we
found a flat field up behind Omaha and staked it out."
     Charles Mlynek, a former Ninth Air Force staff sergeant, remembers
A5 but said his unit of maintenance troops called it "The Apple
Orchard."
     "It  was simply an apple orchard and a farm," said Mlynek, who
turns 86 the week after this year's D-Day celebration.
     "On D-Day, I was almost 36 and probably the oldest NCO in the
Ninth... most of us were 19, 20, 21."
     Mlynek said D-Day was simply "a horror," but said he had to keep
his head so the P-47s could continue to fly.
     "I remember we found this white duck who turned out to be better
than a siren.  Whenever the Germans came near the apple orchard -- by
land or air -- she'd announce it.  We named her Gladys and she usually
parked herself under the P-47 wings."
     Another former Ninth Air Force maintenance troop was Technical
Sergeant Ralph Powers Jr., who kept a diary for his unit -- the 371st
Fighter Group and 404th Fighter Squadron -- when it was flying missions
from England on D-Day.
     "The previous day orders had come through to paint black and white
stripes on all aircraft before dark -- invasion stripes.  We were
notified that we were restricted to the area for the next 24 hours and
to get a good night's rest," Powers' diary said.
     "By the time we turned out for a 0400 pre-flight and briefing, we
knew the score.  This was D-Day."
     According to Powers, the 404th Squadron was the first to get into
the air.  "It was a dive-bombing mission during which Lieutenant
LaRochell's plane collected a load of German ack-ack, and he was forced
to hit the silk just off the Cherbourg Peninsula, near Granville.
Several more ships were shot up, although they were able to make it
home.
     "The waiting ground crews who excitedly scrambled up the side of
the returning planes said, 'What does it look like over there?'"
     During the next two days, Powers said his unit was "jammed with
missions" that kept the squadrons busy from early dawn until dusk.
     "Late at night weary ground crews and pilots clambered slowly
aboard trucks to return to the area, only to be up again before
daylight," the diary said.
     "Three or four hours sleep was the rule rather than the exception,
yet no one kicked.  This was what they had come over for.  Ships would
take off and many would limp back splattered with flak and riddled by
ground fire.
     "An inborn pride welled up in the pilots and ground crews alike in
the ability of their 'babies.'  They could take it and still come home."
     Four days after D-Day, Powers said, his unit's advance echelon was
ordered to set up operating facilities on some field not even taken yet
on Normandy.  They started packing, and seven days later, on 17 June,
they landed across the channel and dug in with Conti, Mlynek and
"Gladys the Duck" at the apple orchard called A5.
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
362.  Looking for dad
by TSgt. David P. Masko
Air Force News Service
     SAINTE-MERE-EGLISE, France -- Half a century ago, several thousand
soldiers of the American 82nd and 101st Airborne divisions parachuted
into Sainte-Mere-Eglise on the eve of D-Day.
     On this day, 5 June 1994, almost 40 of the original did it again.
Not to the surprise of Joe O'Brien Jr., the 70-, 75- and 80-year-old
veterans made it with only a few sprained ankles.
     "I knew they'd be able to make it...but, I wish my dad was here,"
said O'Brien, who made the journey to the fields of France from his
home in Boston.  O'Brien wears a floppy green hat that says 101st
Airborne Division on it, along with other parts of his father's
uniform.  His goal, like hundreds of others, is to capture the past of
his father.
     "He never talked about the war much.  He died in 1976, and now I'm
ready to see what he went through," O'Brien said.
     A few hours prior to when American veterans were scheduled to
airdrop at Sainte-Mere-Eglise, O'Brien was trying to speak French and
get the ticket seller at the Cherbourg train station to give him
directions.
     Unfortunately, it was Sunday and the Cherbourg train to Paris does
not stop at Sainte-Mere-Eglise (a hamlet of about 2,000 people) on its
route east.  Cherbourg is about 30 miles (48 km) up the road.
     "D-Day was probably the most important day of his life.  Today, it
holds a special importance for me because I miss my dad," said O'Brien,
his eyes watering.  "All I know is, he jumped with the 101st into
Eglise on D-Day."
     Faced with missing the 50th anniversary of the first town to be
liberated by American troops, O'Brien decided to hitchhike.
     Meanwhile, two former Polish sailors, who were brainstorming with
O'Brien on how to get out of town, started screaming at the train
station people:  "Don't you understand ... it's D-Day ... D-Day!"
     Victor Stankiewiez and Stanislaw Sliski said they are frustrated,
but don't want a "train" to ruin their day.  Both escaped to England in
1940 after Germany overran their country.
     Although they have O'Brien's moxi when it comes to getting to the
anniversary celebrations, they are both 80-something and don't want to
hitchhike.
     "So, if we don't get to Sainte-Mere-Eglise, we go to Caen," said
Sliski.  "When we get to Caen, we'll get someone to take us to
Sainte-Mere-Eglise."
     Prior to D-Day, the assault on Sainte-Mere-Eglise was a "Sunday
punch" for the Allies.  According to a French government historical
report, the city was occupied by 0430 on D-Day, and by the evening of
6 June 1944, American and Allied troops had liberated it.
     During the effort, 23,250 men landed and 197 were killed.
     "Our friend jumped in the French countryside, but the Germans got
lost trying to find him.  Our people found him and killed the Germans,"
said Sliski.
     As the noon train left Cherbourg and headed for Caen, Stankiewiez
and Sliski spotted O'Brien walking along the train tracks.
     "Looks like he'll make it," said a smiling Sliski.  "He'll be with
his father in Sainte-Mere-Eglise."
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
363.  Cambridge ceremony
by TSgt. David P. Masko
Air Force News Service
     CAMBRIDGE, England -- World War II P-47 pilot Edward MacLain
called Air Force people buried at the Cambridge American Military
Cemetery "the pride of the nation" during a special remembrance
ceremony 4 June that included President Clinton, Secretary of the Air
Force Sheila E. Widnall, Air Force Chief of Staff General Merrill A.
McPeak and thousands of local people and World War II veterans.
     The ceremony, for nearly 4,000 Americans buried at Cambridge,
opened a weekend to commemorate the 50th anniversary of D-Day.
     After being introduced by MacLain, Clinton referred to the dead as
American heroes, and talked about the tough job they did under
hazardous conditions.
     "We have come here, all of us, on a journey of remembrance.  It is
a journey to honor those who fought and those who died.  In this moment,
all of us are joined in a sense of pride, a sense of indebtedness,"
said Clinton, his eyes fixed on World War II veterans seated nearby.
     Although a fierce, steady wind and light rain continued throughout
the ceremony, the rain stopped for a short while during the president's
speech.
     Fifty years ago, Clinton said, Americans fought "a great evil
which threatened to destroy our way of life."
     Cambridge, with its focus on the veterans of the Army Air Forces,
gave Clinton a chance to talk about airpower and Air Force history.
     "The RAF (Royal Air Force) and Army Air Forces joined in countless
sorties to cripple and to decimate the Nazi war machine," he said.
     "Pilots going down with burning flames to give all the rest of the
crew a few more seconds to get out.  And as one American remembered,
'The flak sometimes seemed so thick you could walk on it.'"
     After his speech, Clinton and British Prime Minister John Major
greeted veterans near the rows of grave sites aligned like white spokes
on a wheel.  At one point, appearing visibly moved, Clinton hugged a
Ninth Air Force veteran and clasped the hand of his wife.
     The Cambridge Cemetery, outside the university town of Cambridge,
north of London, holds 3,812 American war dead, representing 42 percent
of those buried in England and Northern Ireland.  The cemetery features
a reflecting pool bordered by polyantha roses that stretch eastward to
a memorial called "The Wall of the Missing."
     Nearly 500 feet (152 m) long, the wall records the names and units
of 5,125 soldiers, sailors and airmen missing in action.  Among them
is the famous band leader Glenn Miller.
     Miller's music and a fly-by of vintage Army Air Forces aircraft
gave the ceremony special poignancy.
     On hand for the ceremony was famed newscaster Walter Cronkite, who
said, "As you watch the veterans stroll around the cemetery -- past the
graves of airmen too numerous to name -- it's inspiring.
     "Cambridge Cemetery is unforgettable," he said, "and so are those
buried here."
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
364.  Cronkite talks D-Day
by TSgt. David P. Masko
Air Force News Service
     NORTH ATLANTIC -- In a meeting room onboard the luxury liner Queen
Elizabeth 2, a jaded audience of D-Day veterans listen to an Air Force
News Service interview with Walter Cronkite.
     Cronkite, a legendary radio and TV journalist, talks about being
assigned by United Press to cover the Army Air Forces during World War
II, saying, "It was my beat."
     As most veterans can remember, Cronkite and other newsmen gave
eyewitness accounts of the 6 June 1944, invasion of Normandy, France --
forever remembered as D-Day.
     For this 50th anniversary celebration, Cronkite and nearly 350
Ninth Air Force Association veterans chose a novel way to commemorate
D-Day.  On 29 May they began a transatlantic crossing from New York to
Southampton, England, on the QE2.  Many of these veterans sailed the
same route on the original Queen Elizabeth when it was refitted for war
in the early-1940s.
     After a week's journey that included crossing the English Channel,
the QE2 anchored off the Normandy beaches 6 June.  The mighty ship sent
"V for victory" messages out all that day -- three dots and a dash.
     During the interview at sea, Cronkite got up from an overstuffed
captain's chair and peered out the port hole.  He recalled how a similar
ocean liner was sunk by a German U-boat on the way to England.  Cronkite
said "thank God" the Queen Elizabeth and Queen Mary -- carrying
thousands of U.S. troops to Europe -- fared better.
     A tall 78-year-old, Cronkite has a big smile, an engaging laugh
and his famous twang that gives special importance to such words as
"D-Day," "Normandy" and "airpower."
     It's no surprise to the Air Force people listening to Cronkite, on
this cold and windy June day, that his philosophy about the D-Day
invasion of Normandy centers on airpower.
     D-Day is ultimately the story of how airpower simply overwhelmed
all opposition, said Cronkite, pointing out that 76,000 tons of bombs
had been dropped on vital German tactical targets prior to invasion day.
     As Allied troops poured ashore on D-Day and afterward, scarcely a
German plane appeared in the sky to attack the landing forces.
     Cronkite, who's probably done more than any other public figure to
educate people about World War II, said the Allies had more than 10,000
warplanes for the invasion.  By that time, the German Luftwaffe had
only about 800 to defend the Normandy coast.
     "We flew about 1,800 sorties over Normandy on D-Day while the
Luftwaffe only managed 100 and only two sorties got to the beach,"
Cronkite said with a smile.
     "Now, suppose that was turned around.  Suppose the Nazis had 1,800
sorties over the beaches strafing our boys.  By the time we got to
Normandy, the Eighth and Ninth Air Force, and the RAF of course, had
pretty well swept Western Europe clean of the Germans.  Our ground
forces almost never suffered a serious attack by the Luftwaffe."
     After the avalanche of men, vehicles and equipment that stormed
ashore at Normandy, Army Air Forces planes were credited with stopping
German resistance.  "If any side was going to have the run of the air,
then we had to have it.  We couldn't have won the war without it.  We
couldn't have stayed on the beaches," said Cronkite.
     "Oh, airpower was essential."
     General Dwight Eisenhower, the supreme commander on D-Day, shared
Cronkite's view.  In his memoirs, written in 1948, he said President
Roosevelt had decided that Nazi Germany -- and not Japan in the Pacific
-- was the main Axis Pact foe for the Allies to defeat first.  For a
good campaign, Eisenhower said the Allies needed preparatory bombing
and continuous air cover by the Army Air Forces and the RAF.
     "Our success was not only because of tactical air, but strategic
air by the long-arm missions of the 8th Air Force, and later, with the
Ninth Air Force, we eliminated the Luftwaffe," Cronkite said.
     Before, during and after D-Day, waves of Allied bombers continued
their giant 1,000-plane raids against Germany industry, especially the
oil refineries.
     According to Air Force history, German production increased in
some fields despite the heavy bombing of factories, but the lack of oil
and gasoline made most of these production gains useless.
     For the invasion of Europe, Cronkite flew in a variety of Army Air
Forces aircraft but fondly remembers his B-17 and B-26 bomber missions.
     "At 26,000 feet (7,925 m), it was pretty cold up there," he said.
"But that was the job and I was lucky to fly the first B-17 missions
over Germany when they permitted correspondents to go.  And boy, to see
those Ninth Air Force boys up there protecting us over the channel was
pretty nice."
     Cronkite explained how P-51 and P-47 aircraft escorted B-17
bombers into enemy territory.  Foremost of  these were the men and
planes of the Eighth and Ninth Air Forces.
     On D-Day, for example, B-17 and B-24 bombers formed the spearhead
of the Allied attack, while three squadrons of P-47 fighters covered
the assault beaches throughout the long day.  At the same time, four
more squadrons of P-38 fighters patrolled the English Channel,
protecting the shipping convoys.
     Edward MacLean, a fighter pilot in the newly formed 362nd Fighter
Group -- the first P-47 group in Ninth Air Force --said he'd rather be
in the air than on the ground after D-Day.
     The job was to fly in front of the B-17s, weaving back and forth
to clear the way for the bombers.  When you saw German fighters below,
you just rammed your throttle forward and dived, MacLean explained.
     "Although combat was dangerous, our base in England was being
targeted by German V-1s.  You'd hear them come whistling in...but that
wasn't the problem.  When you didn't hear the V-1s, then you were hit.
That's why we wanted to get the hell off the ground and back into our
P-47s," he said.
     The V-1s were small, pilotless jet aircraft, each carrying a ton of
explosives.  Many had been sent against England.
     Cronkite spoke of a "secret" mission he went on.  "They
(headquarters) said it was going to be special, but couldn't give me
details.  I said what good was it if I couldn't write about it.  After
we hit the target, I said, My God, that was a V-1 site.  It was such
an explosion."
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
365.  Remembering the women of World War II
by Maj. Susan L. Hankey
     Across the globe special ceremonies and events commemorated the
50th anniversary of World War II, "The War to End All Wars."
     As nations and people joined together to remember those who fought
so bravely to defend freedom, one group was often overlooked -- the
women who served in the U.S. Armed Forces.  My mother was one such
unsung hero -- First Lieutenant Julia Ramacciotti, Army Nurse Corps.
     As I was growing up, my mother occasionally recounted stories of
her days in the U.S. Army.
     After Pearl Harbor was bombed, there was a real need for nurses to
join the Army.  My mother and her best friend, Jane, decided to do
their share for the war cause.
     They were sworn in to the Army Nurse Corps and then headed to
Aberdeen Proving Grounds, Maryland.  There, they worked in a station
hospital for five months before heading to the 45th Evacuation Hospital,
Camp Gordon, Georgia.  The nurses would undergo four months of training
before heading out for duty overseas -- she would pack her bags and
head to a small town in England, to wait.
     The year was 1944, and little did she know at that time but her and
the other nurses would wait -- for D-Day.
     Before my mother died in 1990, I asked her to reflect on her life
and on her service in the Army.  As the memories were put to paper, one
segment talked about the Normandy Invasion.
     "It was June 16, 1944, when we received orders to leave England
and wait for the invasion.  We went by truck to South Hampton, the
departure point for many American troops.
     "Our outfit was a semi-mobile hospital with nurses, doctors and
corpsmen.  There were 500 of us all together, under the command of
General Omar Bradley, U.S. 1st Army.
     "We were destined to cross the English Channel and head to Omaha
Beach, Normandy, to care for the wounded soldiers who had been fighting
there for 10 days."
     The ride across the Channel wasn't a smooth one for the nurses.
The waters were very choppy.  But the ride was smooth compared to the
landing.
     "As we approached the Normandy shoreline we were quickly hustled
into landing crafts (called LSTs).  There were three or four nurses in
each boatload of GIs.  We were told the LSTs would roll right up to the
sand, drop their tailgates and we'd never get wet.  Boy, were they
wrong!
     "The water was so rough the waves made it over the sides and much
of our clothes, from our fatigues to our boots, got soaked.
     "Once we all were ashore we had gathered in small groups to dry
out a bit on the beach.  As we sat on these wooden crates relaxing for
a moment, smoking a cigarette, we got the strangest looks from some of
the soldiers passing by.  It wasn't until a few moments later one of
the nurses noticed the boxes were labeled TNT.  Needless to say, it was
a short break."
     It wasn't long before an Army truck came and got the nurses.  That
truckload of nurses, fatigues and all, was a welcome sight to the GIs.
     "You should have seen the welcome we got when we reached the top
of this hill and these GIs could see it was a truckload of nurses.
Since we were all dressed in fatigues it must have been our figures and
lipstick that gave us away as females.
     "We thought we were headed to an evacuation hospital, but
discovered only a large field with trenches and hedgerows."
     The nurses' tents and equipment were stuck on board the transport
ships -- the weather and seas were too rough to try and offload the
gear.  Another truck came to take them to the evacuation hospital.
     "We grabbed our stuff and jumped in the trucks -- headed toward
the evacuation hospital to start working.  There, we drew straws to see
who would pull the first shift.  Half of us worked the first shift,
night duty, to relieve the unit who'd been working non- stop tending to
the wounded soldiers for the last 10 days.
     "My first night there I worked in an isolation tent.  There was a
young soldier who had gangrene, which is very contagious, and a wounded
French civilian.  We only kept patients in our hospital unit they are
strong enough to be moved back to a station hospital."
     The next few weeks the nurses helped care for the wounded
following the invasion.  As the battle for liberation continued, the
hospital was constantly on the move.
     "When our equipment was finally unloaded at Normandy, we set up
operations 10 miles (16 km) outside St. Lo, a small town in France.  We
survived the invasion, but the wounded just seemed to come in non-stop.
The battle went on for about two weeks.  One day we took the town and
then the next day the Germans took it back.  Finally our troops took it
again and moved rapidly into enemy territory.
     "We'd set up our evac hospital in one area and a few weeks later,
as our troops advanced on enemy, we'd set up a new evac hospital in the
next town.  This was called leap frogging, and continued until we were
about 30 miles (48 km) outside of Paris."
     Despite the wounded and the long hours, the young nurses found the
chance to get to Paris and escape the war.  One morning, my mother and
four other people decided to take a jeep and go sightseeing.  So, they
drove off to visit Paris.  Today, it would probably be considered AWOL.
But, the city was beautiful and the Parisians anxious to welcome any
Americans.
     "Paris had been liberated by the American for about a week, after
being occupied by the Germans for four long years.  We saw the Champs
Elysee, the Arc d' Triumph, the Eiffel Tower and Versailles.
     "Everywhere we went the French were excited to see us.  They
traded perfume for our cigarettes and K-rations.  It seemed strange that
anyone would want K-ration, until you realized they couldn't eat
perfume.
     "When we got back to the American headquarters looking for our
jeep, it was gone!!!  Some German snipers were still in Paris, and we
guessed one of them had stolen our jeep to get away.  Fortunately, luck
was on our side as we happened upon an ambulance which was headed our
way.  When we got back to the hospital, no one had missed us."
     From France, the nurses and hospital crews would follow the troops
to Germany, through Liege, Belgium.  As the American forces pushed
their way into Germany, the Germans pushed back hard one last time.
     "We were in Aachen, Germany, ready to move further into the country
when the German army made its last push to win the war.  It was known
as the Bastogne, or the Battle of the Bulge.
     "We set up a hospital to treat the wounded at a spa.  The Germans
had occupied it before us and it seemed like a great spot -- real beds,
instead of Army cots, hot showers and the works.  But, the delight was
short-lived when we woke up the next morning covered in bed bug bites
-- courtesy the German army."
     By now the casualties were greatly reduced as the war was beginning
to wind down.  The elation of pending victory was short-lived when the
nurses made their last stop in the small German town of Weimer.
     "General Patton had liberated the town and found a concentration
camp -- Buchenwald -- only 10 miles (16 km) away.  There were still
many prisoners at the camp and we had expected to work there.  But
tuberculosis was rampant and they wouldn't let us help for fear of
spreading the disease.
     "We're only about 90 miles (145 km) from Berlin and the talk was
how the war was almost over.  The big four powers -- President
Roosevelt, Stalin, Churchill and deGaulle -- has made  the decision to
let Russia take Berlin.  So, with the number of wounded soldiers down
to a handful, our hospital closed down."
     With the surrender of Germany, the nurses were given two weeks
leave.  They first headed to the French Riviera, where they would hear
that the war was officially declared over.  From there, the group
headed to Switzerland and Austria for some more sightseeing.
     "We visited Berchesgarten, where Hitler had a home on the top of
the Austrian Alps.  We rode an elevator that took us through the
mountain and exited in the hall of his home.  It was a spectacular view,
but by now all we could think of us getting home.
     "We came home aboard the USS Independence.  It was a nine-day trip
before we docked in New York City.  The Statue of Liberty never looked
so good."  (Hankey is 633rd Air Base Wing public affairs officer,
Anderson AFB, Guam)
--

      //^\\
     /// \\\    <---- new uniform 8-)!
    ///   \\\
   ///     \\\                    Air Force News Agency
   |         |              Kelly Air Force Base, Texas, USA
   \\ CMSgt //    ___________________ /____________________________________
   \\ Mike  //
   \\Bergman/
    \\    //
       ~~

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 08:18:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: USN COMMEMORATES D-DAY

FROM THE NAVY NEW SERVICE



-----------------------------------------------------------------
Navy News Service - NAVNEWS BY EMAIL
-----------------------------------------------------------------
NAVY NEWS SERVICE - 08 JUN 94 - NAVNEWS 034/94
NNS353.  U.S. Navy Commemorates D-Day Anniversary
                              -USN-
NNS353.  U.S. Navy Commemorates D-Day Anniversary
LONDON (NNS) -- The U.S. Navy commemorated the 50th anniversary of
D-Day in the United Kingdom, Italy, and France recently with a fleet of
U.S. Navy ships and personnel visiting historic ports, a sunrise
memorial service at sea off Normandy, and ceremonies honoring veterans
of the Italian campaign and Supreme Headquarters Allied Expeditionary
Forces.   The activities marked the 6 June 1944 Allied invasion of
Normandy, the largest amphibious assault in history.
     The ceremonies began with a sunrise memorial service on USS
George Washington (CVN 73) at sea off Omaha Beach and Pointe du Hoc,
where Americans landed on D-Day.  President Bill Clinton, Secretary of
the Navy John H. Dalton, Chief of Naval Operations Admiral Mike Boorda
and a group of D-Day veterans traveled with USS George Washington
across the English Channel, anchoring with naval ships from a number of
nations, to participate in the service.  Before placing a commemorative
wreath in the sea, President Clinton paid tribute to the men who fought
on Normandy beaches:  "We gather in the calm after sunrise today to
remember that fateful morning.  The pivot point of the war, perhaps the
pivot point of the 20th century."
     Secretary Dalton, also speaking at the sunrise service, said,
"Fifty years ago Allied vessels brimming with determined warriors,
uncertain of their fate but clear in their purpose, sailed across these
very waters. Today we honor them.  They made the ultimate sacrifice
then, so that we can be free now."
     Thirteen U.S. Navy ships, led by the aircraft carrier USS George
Washington (CVN 73), formed "U.S. D-Day Fleet '94" and joined with
European Allies in commemorative events afloat.
     Joining USS George Washington in the U.S. D-Day Fleet '94 were:
guided missile cruisers USS Normandy (CG 60), USS Thomas S. Gates
(CG 51), and USS San Jacinto (CG 56); guided missile destroyer USS
Barry (DDG 52); destroyer USS Deyo (DD 989); guided missile frigate USS
Doyle (FFG 39); amphibious assault ship USS Guam (LPH 9); amphibious
transport dock ship USS Austin (LPD 4); the amphibious dock landing
ship USS Tortuga (LSD 46); tank landing ship USS Harlan County (LST
1196); replenishment oiler USS Kalamazoo (AOR 6); and ammunition ship
USS Santa Barbara (AE 26).
     To commemorate the Italian campaign, the U.S. Navy sponsored a
ceremony at the Sicily-Rome American Cemetery in Nettuno, Italy, on 3
June.  President Clinton, together with the leaders of Italy, gathered
at Nettuno to honor the nearly 8,000 fallen servicemen and to thank
others who fought in the bloody battles for the liberation of Rome.
The U.S. Navy and the City of Rome also co-sponsored a 4 June ceremony
in Rome where a monument was unveiled honoring all who died during
World War II.
    In messages to the commands involved, Secretary Dalton and Admiral
Mike Boorda both expressed their deep appreciation to the Sailors and
Marines who helped to plan and carry out the D-Day ceremonies. Admiral
Boorda said, "You played a key role in this success.  Your real reward
comes from knowing an important job was well done and that you were
part of it.  On behalf of the veterans, thanks and well done.  It was
truly a special and historic time."

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 05:39:28 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@CCLINK.LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 06-09-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
06/09 Fri. Destroyers bombard Japanese repair facilities in the
           Fangelawa Bay area, New Ireland.
            United States naval vessel sunk, Normandy area:
             Destroyer MEREDITH (DD-726), by horizontal bomber
              and as a result of mine damage suffered 8 June,
              49 d. 26' N., 01 d. 04' W.
             LST 314, by torpedo from surface craft,
              49 d. 43' N., 00 d. 52' W.
             LST 376, damaged by torpedo from surface craft,
              49 d. 50' N., 00 d. 50' W.;
              sunk by United States forces.
            United States naval vessel damaged:
             Motor minesweeper YMS-305, by coastal defense gun,
              Normandy area,
              49 d. 31' N., 00 d. 50' W.
            Japanese naval vessels sunk:
             Destroyer MATSUKAZE, by submarine SWORDFISH (SS-
              193), off Bonin Islands,
              26 D. 59' N., 143 d. 13' E.
             Destroyer TANIKAZE, by submarine HARDER (SS-257),
              Celebes Sea,
              05 d. 42' N., 120 d. 41' E.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 08:46:30 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <sep@TVSS2.COMMNET.EDU>
Subject: Re: TRV: Volkswagens

>From Scott Jones:

     Yet another trivia question from me...

     Is it true that the VW *Bug* was designed by the Germans for use as a
     troop carrier THROUGH water obstacles? I understand that they were
     designed with air/water tight construction features for this purpose.
     Are there any other attempts by the Nazis to design/build vehicles
     designed to negotiate water obstacles?

     Scott


Mayhaps not the BUG, or BEETLE as it was referred to here, but the German
KUBLWAGON (sp?) was sold in this country in the early 70's as the VW
THING. It looked just like the KUBLWAGON's the Germans used in WW-II,
the doors came off, the top came off, it had automatic four wheel drive.

I had the opportunity to go off-road in one back in '72-73. It had very
little ground clearance, but seemed to go OK thru the swamps, etc we went
thru. Even with street tires.

I seem to remember seeing an article back then describing how the VW folks
stated that they had used the actual WW-II vehicle as their model.

                                                                Steve
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - sep@trctc.commnet.edu |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 09:29:08 -0500
From:    John Davis <JBDML@OSBM6.OSBM.STATE.NC.US>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago Today - 09-JUN-1944

On 09-JUN-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
France - The American 4th Division (VII Corps) makes progress in its advance
     on Cherbourg. The 22nd Regiment forces the German Azeville fortifications
     to surrender. Both the 82nd and 101st Airborne mount attacks, the 82nd on
     the river Merderet and the 101st to the south against Carentan. In the
     central sector, the 38th Regiment of the 2nd Division enters Trevieres.
     The 9th Regiment pushs towards Rubercy. Troops from the 1st Division
     reach Agy and Dodigny. The US 2nd Armoured Division begins to land. In
     the British sector the I Corps encounters strong resistance near Caen.

Italian Front - Units of the 34th Division of the US VI Corps takes Tarquinia.
     Viterbo falls without a shot being fired. to the US 1st Division. In the
     British sector the South African 6th Armoured Division makes contact with
     the Americans at Viterbo and pushes on towards Orvieto. The British 6th
     Armoured Division continues towards Terni.

New Guinea - Near Aitape the Americans break the Japanese resistance and reach
     the river Tirfoam.

Naval Dispatches
----------------
US destroyer MEREDITH (DD-726) sunk by horizontal bombing in Normandy area.

LST 314 sunk by torpedo in Normandy area.

LST 376 damaged by torpedo in Normandy area and subsequently sunk by US.

Minesweeper YMS-305 damaged by coastal defense gun in Normandy area.

Japanese destroyer MATSUKAZE sunk by submarine SWORDFISH (SS-193) off Bonin
     Islands.

Japanese destroyer TANIKAZE sunk by submarine HARDER (SS-257) in Celebes Sea.

The Homefront
-------------
Anti-4th Termers Meet - An estimated 30 leaders of the Democratic party met in
     Shreveport, LA to oppose the renomination of President Roosevelt to a 4th
     term.

Haupt Convicted Second Time - Hans Max Haupt, father of executed Nazi saboteur
     Herbert Haupt, is convicted a second time in Chicago for treason. The
     Federal District Court jury recommends mercy.

Blondell Sues Powell - Film actress Joan Blondell has filed suite against
     actor Richard Powell for divorce citing cruelty.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  jbd@osbm.state.nc.us
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 09:23:02 -0400
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <sparks@ALPHA.CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: Schwimmwagen

An addendum to the capabilties of the amphibious version of the
Volkswagen...

In addition to the added propeller, the schwimmwagen was also a
four wheel drive vehicle.  Top road speed was listed as 80 km/hr
(48 mph), and a top speed in water of 10 km/hr (6 mph).  About
14,000 were built.

This information was taken from the instruction sheet for a plastic
model of the vehicle.  :-)

Dennis E. Sparks
sparks@alpha.caer.uky.edu
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 08:38:54 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Unknown flag in Normandy (fwd)

Hello, Dan!

That symbol belongs to the 95th Division which fought in Normandy.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 08:43:35 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: TRV: Volkswagens

Hello, again, Dan!

Will try to answer your question as best I can.

> Except for a few display models, I don't think the Bug actually went into
> production. Instead it became something like War Bonds here--or a scam,
> if you prefer. Thousands of German workers signed up to buy one on the
> installment plan. Delivery would come with the end of the war. I wonder
> if any of these contracts were ever enforced upon the Volkswagen company?

    The Volkswagen had the name "Kraft durch Freude" Wagen or
Strength Through Joy Car. It was intended to be sold as you suggest,
and orders were taken.

    In the postwar economic recovery of the country, Volkswagen did
honor those pre-war contracts. What this amounted to was to deduct
from the price of the post-war manufactured VW the amount paid in to
either buy a car or reserve one. Of course, adjustments were made to
take into consideration the difference in the Mark's value during the
30's as opposed to its value in the 1960's. Anyway, settlement was
made to those who could produce proof of "buying into" the KDF-Wagen.

Hope this helps.


Terry











Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 09:47:00 EDT
From:    Richard Kaplan <kaplanr@CLP2.CLPGH.ORG>
Subject: Re: Unknown flag in Normandy (fwd)

From: Dan Ford <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>

Can anyone help this person? (I'd like to know the answer too!)

            - Dan      <dan.ford@unh.edu>

---------- Forwarded message ----------

     I noticed, during television coverage of the 50th anniversary, on
the graves at the American cemetery in Normandy and at other places,
three flags: American, French, and one I had not seen before.  It was
white, with a red symbol that resembled the number "10," with a bar
joining the "1" and the "10."  Does anybody know what that third flag
is?
     As best I can reproduce it in ASCII, it looked like:


----------------------------
|                          |
|                          |
|                          |
|                          |
|       __      ____       |
|       | |    / __ \      |
|       | |___| |  | |     |
|       |  ___  |  | |     |
|       | |   | |  | |     |
|       | |    \ --  /     |
|       ---     \---/      |
|                          |
|                          |
|                          |
|                          |
----------------------------
                                Thanks for any help,
                                Merlin Dorfman
                                DORFMAN@NETCOM.COM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dan, and/or Merlin:
        I'm taking a stab, but it could be the unit patch of the 90th Division,
though the image should have the bar running horizontally across the top.  Take
your image and rotate it 90 degrees to the right.


                                Richard Kaplan
                                Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 09:05:13 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: General Hermann Balck

Hello, Gudmundur!

Here goes with the long-promised info on General der Panzertruppe
Hermann Balck.

    Born 7 Dec 1893 in Danzig-Langfuhr

    10 April 1913-Officer-Candidate in the Hannover Jaeger Bataillon
                  10.

    10 August 1914-Brevet-Second-Lieutenant

    1915-received permanent rank of Second-Lieutenant effective 10 Nov
         1914

    5 Feb 1915-Company Commander

    1 Oct 1919-posted to Reichswehr Infantry Regiment 20.

    1 Oct 1920-posted to Inf. Regt. 17

    1 Jan 1923-posted to Reiter Regt. 18

    1 May 1924-posted for additional training

    1 Feb 1928-promoted First-Lieutenant

    1 Oct 1929-promoted Cavalry Captain (Rittmeister)

    1 April 1934-Squadron Commanding Officer

    1 June 1935-Adjutant to the 3rd Division.

    1 Oct 1935-promoted Major and CO of Radfahrer Bataillon 1.
               (motorcycle)

    1 Feb 1938-promoted Lieutenant-Colonel

    30 Nov 1938-posted to the High Command of the Army (OKH)

    1 Dec 1939-named commanding officer of Schuetzen Regiment 1

    1 August 1940-promoted Colonel

    16 Dec 1940-CO of Panzer Regiment 3.

    15 May 1941-CO of 2nd Panzer Brigade

    7 July 1941-posted to the staff of the General of Fast Troops
                (Guderian) in the OKH

    23 May 1942-CO of the 11th Panzer Division

    1 Aug 1942-promoted Generalmajor

    1 Jan 1943-promoted Generalleutnant

    1 Nov 1943-promoted General der Panzertruppe

    15 Nov 1943-CO of the 48th Panzer Corps

    5 Aug 1944-Commander in Chief of the 4th Panzer Army

    2 Sep 1944-C-in-C of Army Group G

    24 Dec 1944-C-in-C of Army Group Balck and Army High Command (AOK)
                "C" until war's end


    Knight's Cross- 3 Jun 1940

    Oakleaf to RK- 20 Dec 1942

    Swords to RK-4 Mar 1943

    Diamonds to RK-31 Aug 1944


    General Balck was one of the finest field commanders produced by
the German Army in WWII. For an excellent appraisal of his abilities
and achievements, please consult Friedrich-Wilhelm von Mellenthin's
excellent work "Panzer Battles".

    General Balck died about 10 years ago.


    Hope this is of interest.

    Terry






Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 09:15:25 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Jets

Hello, Tony!

Hope you are well. I will begin posting to you the requested info on
German helicopters.

    Will get this to you via the list, as there may be others
interested in this.

    More later.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 10:41:52 -0400
From:    "Robert F. Kieran" <rkieran@NIC.NEAR.NET>
Subject: Re: Unknown flag in Normandy (fwd)

        From: Dan Ford <dan.ford@unh.edu>
        Subject: Unknown flag in Normandy (fwd)
        Date: Thu, 9 Jun 1994 06:57:19 -0400

        Can anyone help this person? (I'd like to know the answer too!)

                    - Dan      <dan.ford@unh.edu>

        ---------- Forwarded message ----------

             I noticed, during television coverage of the 50th anniversary, on
        the graves at the American cemetery in Normandy and at other places,
        three flags: American, French, and one I had not seen before.  It was
        white, with a red symbol that resembled the number "10," with a bar
        joining the "1" and the "10."  Does anybody know what that third flag
        is?
             As best I can reproduce it in ASCII, it looked like:


        ----------------------------
        |                          |
        |                          |
        |                          |
        |                          |
        |       __      ____       |
        |       | |    / __ \      |
        |       | |___| |  | |     |
        |       |  ___  |  | |     |
        |       | |   | |  | |     |
        |       | |    \ --  /     |
        |       ---     \---/      |
        |                          |
        |                          |
        |                          |
        |                          |
        ----------------------------
                                        Thanks for any help,
                                        Merlin Dorfman
                                        DORFMAN@NETCOM.COM

Dan,

     I think I have a clue, but then again, I've been wrong before!! ;^)

     First of all, I think you've rotated the design 90 degrees to the
left. If you rotate your design to the right 90 degrees, you end up with
a "T" intersecting an "O", as in "Tough Ombres". I believe this flag is
one of the Army division flags, but I don't know any more right now.
[Alas, all my reference works are at home!]

     Perhaps someone else has the numeric designation for this divison?


                                                Regards,
                                                Bob Kieran
                                                rkieran@nic.near.net

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 08:06:13 CDT
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re[2]: Henning von Treschkow

Please post the info on General Balck--he was the CO of the 11th Panzer
Division, the unit I reenact.  Das Gestenterdivison Liebt!  TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 11:30:36 EDT
From:    Lowe Barrett MAJ <hb9388@USMA6.USMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Unknown flag in Normandy (fwd)

Richard,

I agree with your assessment.  The 90th division's symbol is in red
with the orientation as you said below.

barry


>
>
>----------------------------
>|                          |
>|                          |
>|                          |
>|                          |
>|       __      ____       |
>|       | |    / __ \      |
>|       | |___| |  | |     |
>|       |  ___  |  | |     |
>|       | |   | |  | |     |
>|       | |    \ --  /     |
>|       ---     \---/      |
>|                          |
>|                          |
>|                          |
>|                          |
>----------------------------
>                                Thanks for any help,
>                                Merlin Dorfman
>                                DORFMAN@NETCOM.COM
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
>
>Dan, and/or Merlin:
>        I'm taking a stab, but it could be the unit patch of the 90th Division
,
>though the image should have the bar running horizontally across the top.  Tak
e
>your image and rotate it 90 degrees to the right.
>
>
>                                Richard Kaplan
>                                Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh
>

Barrett F. Lowe               RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!
MAJ, IN
Dept of Physics, West Point  (e-mail:  hb9388%usma6@trotter.usma.edu)

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 08:04:45 CDT
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: TRV: Volkswagens

The Volkswagen company produced two military models at their plant in
Wolfsburg.  The first was the Kubelwagen--or bucket car, which is a
small "jeep" type vehicle, that was widely used.  They were mainly
introduced to units after the war started, and were part of the German
program to standardize vehicles.  A friend of mine wons one in Chicago,
and loves it.  It is a wonderful vehicle, although kind of cramped for
taller people.

The Schwimmwagen, or swim car, was introduced shortly after the
Kubelwagen.  The significant difference between the Kubel and Schwim is
that the Scwim had 4 wheel drive versus 2 wheel fro the Kubel, and
obviously, the schwimm could schwimm.  It had a body shaped sort of like
a boat, and had a propeller that swung down for use while in water.  I
believe there was a rudder as well.  Schwimm's are a pretty rare and
valued vehicle.I've only ever seen one.  Both vehicles seat 4, and have
a mounting for a machine gun, generally a MG-34, on the right outside
side in front of the passenger's seat.

Generally Kubels are going for $10-20,000, and Schwimm's for $50-75,000.

The VW plant did continue to produce a small number of Kafers (Beetles)
during the war.  Towards the end of the war, there were a bunch of parts
laying around, and the plant decided to put them together even though
they were from different model numbers, so they put Schwimm drivetrains
with Kafer chassis and created a small number of 4 wheel drive Kafers.
They are supposed to be the most valuable VW out there, and only a few
exist.

I have a book on the Kubel and Schwimm, and Kafer at home.  I can post
some more details, at least as much as my German can read.
TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 11:42:49 EDT
From:    JohnS426@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Living History

Re: National Capitol Military sales outfit.  The owner is George Peterson and
they are right down the street from me. Anyone wanting a recon in force or
other preliminary look see to know what they have, just send me a note.
 Peterson for several years has been especially active in Russia dregging up
uniform items. His warehouse could outfit a couple of regiments from many
nations.
Best wishes
John Sloan
johns426@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 08:34:45 -0500
From:    Bill Smith <bismith@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: SBD-2, BuNo 2106

I was at NMNA last week and saw the display devoted to aircraft lost in
Lake Michigan training accidents -- "Sunken Treasures" was the title.
I'm told there are approximately 16 known naval craft of various types
awaiting recovery in the lake.  There are two and several artifacts on
display at Pensacola.  The planes are displayed as they lay on the floor
of Lake Michigan with the room darkened and water pans over the dim
lighting to give the illusion that you are underwater.

Arkansas Air Museum here in Fayetteville is among sites hoping to pick up
one of the "extras" from NMNA to build its own version of the "Sunken
Treasures" room.

On Wed, 8 Jun 1994, mc killop wrote:

> The following is from SHIPMATE, a publication for the alumni of the US
> Naval Academy.
>
> HISTORIC AIRCRAFT AT NAVAL AIRCRAFT MUSEUM
> ------------------------------------------
>
> A most historic World War II aircraft has recently arrived at the National
> Museum of Naval Aviation in Pensacola, Florida.
>
> The aircraft, a Douglas SBD-2 Dauntless dive bomber, was recovered from
> Lake Michigan recently.  While on a training mission in Jun 43, Donald A.
> Douglas, a Marine Aviator, crashed the Dauntless into the lake where it
> rested on the bottom in the cold, fresh water for almost 50 years.
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 08:36:51 -0500
From:    Bill Smith <bismith@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: SBD-2, BuNo 2106

Shows I should read all my messages before replying.  In regard to the
SBD-2, not in any kind of shape for reasonable refit.  It seems the fate
of the wrecks will be displays like that I referred to in my previous post.

On Wed, 8 Jun 1994, Kevin Kamphaus wrote:

> Great story!  What kind of shape was the airframe etc. in?
>
> Kevin Kamphaus
> kamphaus@petsys.ae.ge.com
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 12:06:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: Unknown flag in Normandy (fwd)

 >        ----------------------------
 >        |                          |
 >        |                          |
 >        |                          |
 >        |                          |
 >        |       __      ____       |
 >        |       | |    / __ \      |
 >        |       | |___| |  | |     |
 >        |       |  ___  |  | |     |
 >        |       | |   | |  | |     |
 >        |       | |    \ --  /     |
 >        |       ---     \---/      |
 >        |                          |
 >        |                          |
 >        |                          |
 >        |                          |
 >        ----------------------------

Rotate this 90 degrees clockwise and I believe it is the patch for
the 90th Infantry Division.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 10:11:07 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Unknown flag in Normandy (fwd)

Merlin...
        The nearest design to the one you describe is
                HD  (letters joined)
                British army divisional sign for the HIGHLAND DIVISION.
'Could be what you saw.
Regards -- Sidney.

##

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 10:29:42 PST
From:    "Jones, Scott T." <sjones@CCLINK.LOGICON.COM>
Subject: Re: INF: 50 Years Ago Today - 09-JUN-1944

     John Davis wrote...

     *US destroyer MEREDITH (DD-726) sunk by horizontal bombing in Normandy
     area.*


     The only type of bombing with which I am familiar is *vertical*. Is
     *horizontal bombing* the same as shooting artillery or is it another
     form of air to ground warfare about which I know nothing? HELP!

     Scott

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
     Scott T. Jones                | "Never get into a gun fight with seven
     Dahlgren, VA 22448  USA       |  men when you only have a six-shooter."
     Internet: Sjones@LOGICON.COM  |
_____________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 13:29:51 -0400
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: Unknown flag in Normandy (fwd)

Robert F. Kieran <rkieran@NIC.NEAR.NET> writes:
>      First of all, I think you've rotated the design 90 degrees to the
> left. If you rotate your design to the right 90 degrees, you end up with
> a "T" intersecting an "O", as in "Tough Ombres". I believe this flag is
> one of the Army division flags, but I don't know any more right now.

        It figures!  (US) Americans can't spell now and they apparently
couldn't spell then!  "Ombres" starts with an "H"!  :-)
--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
PS: Tongue is firmly planted in cheek!  I'm sure the misspelling
was intentional.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 10:47:00 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: NAZI MURDER OF TWO BRITISH PATAROOPERS IN NORMANDY SOLVED

A 50-year-old murder of two soldiers of the (British) Parachute Regiment
was recently solved, as being perpetrated by German soldiers of the
6 Company, 125 Panzer Grenadier Regiment.
In a classic showdown that ended the mystery, the actual German commander
whose troops committed the killings of prisoners was confronted with the evidence as he sipped tea at the Pegasus Cafe, Normandy, just days before the
D-Day celebrations.
On the night of June 5, 1944, two members of the Parachute Regiment's
signal's platoon -- Private Arthur Platt, 24, and Private Tom Billington, 21,
were among 40 paras dropped ahead of the main force to set up homing beacons
for airborne landings.
The two were captured by a German patrol, 125 Panzer Grenadiers, stationed
in Trouville, France. The British soldiers probably expected to be made
prisoners of war, as they were in full uniform. Instead, they were shot
through the back of the head.  The crime would have gone undetected, if it
had not been witnessed by Mme. Yveline Langevin, who told her farm neighbors.
        Four days later, when the 51st Highland Division was fighting its
way into the area, the German troops carried the two dead bodies two miles
to a field near Demouville in an attempt to bury the evidence. Private Platt's
shallow grave was found, but Billington's remains were never recovered.
        The atrocity stayed in the memory of elderly residents of Touffreville,
and helped the son of Platt start investigating further. For years, he had
been told that his father had "died in action". With the help of the historian
of the 8th Parachute Battalion, Platt searched wartime records, and traced
the German unit responsible, and actually learned the commander was not only
still alive, but visiting Normandy.
        Colonel Hans von Luck. Cross of Gold etc., was being treated as a
celebrity, gallant old soldier, and all that. Mr Platt approached von Luck:
"When I walked up to him with the evidence, he went three shades of white. He seemed very shocked that anyone knew of the incident." He deined having ever
heard of the Hitler Order for the shooting of paratroops. "I told him he
must have been the only soldier in Normandy not to have heard that order,"
said Platt. "Von Luck seemed annoyed that this had come up just before the
anniversary visits and did not want to spoil his image..."
"I did not want revenge -- only the truth", said Mr Platt. "The evidence of
the murder of my father and his friend is in Regimental records for all to see.
I feel now at last Dad can rest in peace".

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 10:48:21 -0700
From:    Ed Kettler <deradler@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: SBD-2, BuNo 2106

I saw a picture in Sport Aviation, and the cowl area is pretty dinged up,
as could be expected from a water landing.  The plane was on its gear,
and reportedly there was still pressure in the oxygen tank, and the
radial engine still leaked oil (a good sign, by the way).  Unfortunately,
there is a lot of corrosion, so I don't think it will be restorable to
flying condition.


Ed Kettler                                       deradler@netcom.com


On Thu, 9 Jun 1994, mc killop wrote:

> RE: SBD-2, BuNo 2106
>
>  >Great story!  What kind of shape was the airframe etc. in?
>  >
>  >Kevin Kamphaus
>  >kamphaus@petsys.ae.ge.com
>  >
>
> Kevin, I think the aircraft is either on, or will shortly be on,
> display so the airframe should be in great shape.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> |  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
> |  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
> |  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
> |  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 14:49:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: INF: 50 Years Ago Today - 09-JUN-1944

 >     John Davis wrote...
 >
 >     *US destroyer MEREDITH (DD-726) sunk by horizontal bombing in Normandy
 >     area.*
 >
 >
 >     The only type of bombing with which I am familiar is *vertical*. Is
 >     *horizontal bombing* the same as shooting artillery or is it another
 >     form of air to ground warfare about which I know nothing? HELP!
 >
 >     Scott

Scott,

Horizontal bombing means that the aircraft dropping the bomb flies
horizontal while aiming and dropping.  Our B-17s, B-24s, B-25s,
B-26s and B-29s were all horizontal bombers.  Aircraft like the
A-24/SBD, A-25/SB2C and A-36 were dive bombers that did drop
vertically.  All of the fighters used in fighter-bomber roles were
usually in a glide while bombing so they could be considered
vertical bombers; except the P-38 which was also used as a
horizontal bomber when the DROOPSNOOT method was used.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 14:26:39 CDT
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Schwimmwagen

THE KUBELWAGEN IS NOT THE THING!  I've seen the two side by side and the
Kubel is much smaller than a thing.  The other significant difference
in appearance is the kubel having the spare tire on the hood.  They are
considerably different vehicles---the Kubel is more related to a beetle
than a kubel to a thing.  Where did my post go off to that I sent
earlier?

TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 15:28:25 -0400
From:    Richard Denison <rdenison@ABACUS.BATES.EDU>
Subject: Re: INF: 50 Years Ago Today - 09-JUN-1944

If a lurker may intrude with his first post to the list ...

Scott Jones inquired as follows:

>      John Davis wrote...
>
>      *US destroyer MEREDITH (DD-726) sunk by horizontal bombing in Normandy
>      area.*
>
>
>      The only type of bombing with which I am familiar is *vertical*. Is
>      *horizontal bombing* the same as shooting artillery or is it another
>      form of air to ground warfare about which I know nothing? HELP!
>
>      Scott
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>      Scott T. Jones                | "Never get into a gun fight with seven
>      Dahlgren, VA 22448  USA       |  men when you only have a six-shooter."
>      Internet: Sjones@LOGICON.COM  |
> _____________________________________________________________________________
>

Scott: My understanding is that horizontal bombing refers to "standard"
bombing, in which the bombing aircraft is flying straight and level, as
opposed to dive bombing. What's horizontal is the airplane, not the bomb.

BTW, to me, bombardiers are among the unsung heroes of WWII -- keeping
their airplane straight on the  bombing run when the overwhelming urge
must have been to get the hell out of there.

--Rick Denison
(Cessna 152 driver with fantasies of B-24s)

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 14:48:29 -0400
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <sparks@ALPHA.CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: horizontal bombing

Regarding Scott's question on horizontal bombing....

Uh, Scott, I believe that the "horizontal" refers to the attitude
of the aircraft delivering said bomb; as opposed to "vertical" or
dive bombing.  'Course, most bombers have *bad* attitudes anyway...

;-)

Dennis E. Sparks
sparks@alpha.caer.uky.edu
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 14:38:31 CDT
From:    Robert Hohlt <rhohlt@MGMSERV1.MGM.SAIC.COM>
Subject: Re: INF: 50 Years Ago Today - 09-JUN-1944

Scott T. Jones wrote...

> The only type of bombing with which I am familiar is *vertical*. Is
> horizontal bombing* the same as shooting artillery or is it another
> form of air to ground warfare about which I know nothing? HELP!



Horizontal bombing was done with bombers such as the B17, Betty, or HE 111,
as opposed to vertical bombing or dive bombing with Vals, Stukas, or SBDs.

On the subject of bombing, two types of low altitude horizontal bombing
that I find interesting are skip bombing, and para fracs.

I think the British used skip bombing very effectively on Dams.
It was also used to perfection in the battle of the Bismark Sea
by the B25s and P38s.

Can anyone tell me about the ww2 para frac bomb?  What sort of fuses could
be used?  How long a delay time could be set?

Anyone else have more?



Robert Hohlt, Jr.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 14:16:00 EST
From:    Daniel Malepart <MALEPART@A1.ATMONT.MRGATE.ATOTT2.NRC.CA>
Subject: Re: INF: 50 Years Ago Today - 09-JUN-1944

From:   NAME: Daniel Malipart
        FUNC: PARI/CPA/Montreal
        TEL: (514) 283-0348                   <MALEPART@A1@ATMONT>
To:     NAME: IN%"WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu <IN%"WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu"@NRCNET@MRGATE@ATOTT2>

    I think "horizontal bombing", as opposed to "dive bombing", means the
    aircraft if flying (more or less) straight and level when it drops its
    bombs.

    Daniel Malepart, Computer specialist, Montreal, Canada
    malepart@a1.atmont.nrc.ca

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Jun 1994 03:45:12 +0200
From:    John Ausland <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: GEN: D-DAY AND A FEW DAYS THAT FOLLOWED

  As most users of this list know by now, I crossed the Channel on an LCT with
Col. Van Fleet, commander of the 8th Regiment of the 4th Infantry Division,
which made the assault on Utah Beach.  Some distance from shore, we moved to a
smaller craft for the run into the beach.
  It is impossible to describe my feeling when that ramp went down, since
we had no way of knowing what would happen then.  Fortunately, the navy
had landed us in the wrong place, where German defenses were light, and
there was no small arms fire as we waded ashore.  (This was at about H-hour
plus 90 minutes.)
  We ran to the sand dunes, to catch our breath.  I recall looking south
toward Omaha Beach and wondering what was happening there.  It is just
as well I did not know.
  I then went inland to find positions for our artillery batteries,
which would be arriving soon.
  At first, I could not orient myself, but when I did I found there was
only room for two batteries between the dunes and the area the Germans
had flooded.
  When I returned to the beach and told Lt. Col. (Tommy) Thomason,
my commanding officer, this, he said, "John, we only need space for two.
B Battery hit a mine on the way in."
  Of the 59 men on board the landing craft, 39 were killed and the other
20 severely wounded.  These were most of the casualties suffered by the
4th Division on the landing.  One of my friends later told me of watching
from another boat the B Battery landing craft go into the air.  Having
friends on it, it was a terrible experience.  As instructed, his
landing craft continued on to the beach and left it to rescue craft to
pick up the wounded.
  After our self-propelled howitzers were all ashore, Tommy and I went
forward to find the infantry, since we could do no firing until we knew
where they and the paratroopers were.  When we were walking across a
field, a soldier shouted that we were in a mine field.  Again, it is
impossible to describe the feeling such news prompts.  We separated and
picked our way across the rest of the field.  (I learned later there were
no mines.  The Germans had hung an ACHTUNG MINEN sign on a fence, probably
to impress some inspecting general.)
  Having uploaded messages which describe the rest of this day, I will
not repeat them here.  In brief, after getting our batteries in place,
I reported to Col. Van Fleet, as his artillery liaison officer.
  On June 7, the 8th Regiment cleaned out a nest of Germans which
held high ground between us and Ste. Mere Eglise, which was occupied by
the 82nd Airborne forces commanded by John Wayne (g).  (Incidentally, does
anyone know why he never did any military service?)
  When I drove into Ste. Mere Eglise in my jeep, I stopped briefly
in front of the church and had a talk with Frank Capa.  (I knew it was he,
because he had his name painted on the front of his jeep.)  What I did
not know at the time was that he had landed on Omaha Beach on June 6.
What neither of us knew was that a technician in London, who was being
told to hurry, had accidentally destroyed most of his film.
  The 4th Division continued its attack toward Cherbourg, with the 8th
Regiment on the west side of the highway.  The 29th soon got four extra
105 howitzers, which were split between the other two batteries.  Hence,
each had six guns, which is now standard in artillery units.  This
arrangement lasted until after we took Cherbourg.
  At one point, I stopped at a farmhouse, which had a fountain, to clean up
and wash my feet.  Tommy drove by in his command car.  He stopped and stared
at my bare feet for a moment.  "Ausland, don't you know  there is a war
going on?"
  I replied, "Yes, sir, I know that, but I figure it is going to last a long
time.  In the meantime, I intend to keep my feet clean."
  He laughed and drove on.  In later years, whenever we get together, he
enjoys repeating this story.
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo, Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 16:04:36 CDT
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re[2]: Unknown flag in Normandy (fwd)

Looks like the 90th Division to me--that particular patch is still in
use by the 90th Army Reserve Command based out of Texas.  I believe all
the special operations units in the reserves are attached to the
USARCOM.  There is a Psychological Operations Battalion in St. Louis
which wears the patch.  TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 16:07:21 CDT
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re[2]: Living History

Ref: National Ca[ital Historical Sales--be careful and shop around
because George is pricey compared to other places.  the M-38/41 for $125
is a reasonable price, but everything else he sells you need to look
arounf a bit.  I've heard also that he is selling repro USA WWII
pinks/chocalte brown Class "A" uniforms.  Anybody know how much they are
going for a set??

TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 16:17:12 -0500
From:    "Sean J. Wright" <sjwright@MAILHOST.ECN.UOKNOR.EDU>
Subject: Re: INF: 50 Years Ago Today - 09-JUN-1944

>
>      John Davis wrote...
>
>      *US destroyer MEREDITH (DD-726) sunk by horizontal bombing in Normandy
>      area.*
>
>
>      The only type of bombing with which I am familiar is *vertical*. Is
>      *horizontal bombing* the same as shooting artillery or is it another
>      form of air to ground warfare about which I know nothing? HELP!
>
>      Scott
>
I'd imagine they are referring to bombs dropped from level bombers as opposed
to dive bombers.

Sean

----------------------------------------------------------------------
|          Sean Wright             |                                 |
|                                  |  "Never play beer games with    |
| sjwright@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu |   someone who used to disarm    |
| swright@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu  |   bombs for a living"           |
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Note:  These opinions are mine and mine alone.                     |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 17:47:08 +0000
From:    David Rising <drising@IO.ORG>
Subject: Re: TRV: Volkswagens

On Thu, 9 Jun 1994, Tim not Timothy Scherrer wrote:

> The Volkswagen company produced two military models at their plant in
> Wolfsburg.  The first was the Kubelwagen--or bucket car, which is a
> small "jeep" type vehicle, that was widely used.  They were mainly
> introduced to units after the war started, and were part of the German
> program to standardize vehicles.  A friend of mine wons one in Chicago,
> and loves it.  It is a wonderful vehicle, although kind of cramped for
> taller people.
>
> The Schwimmwagen, or swim car, was introduced shortly after the
> Kubelwagen.  The significant difference between the Kubel and Schwim is
> that the Scwim had 4 wheel drive versus 2 wheel fro the Kubel, and
> obviously, the schwimm could schwimm.  It had a body shaped sort of like
> a boat, and had a propeller that swung down for use while in water.  I
> believe there was a rudder as well.  Schwimm's are a pretty rare and
> valued vehicle.I've only ever seen one.  Both vehicles seat 4, and have
> a mounting for a machine gun, generally a MG-34, on the right outside
> side in front of the passenger's seat.
>
> Generally Kubels are going for $10-20,000, and Schwimm's for $50-75,000.
>
> The VW plant did continue to produce a small number of Kafers (Beetles)
> during the war.  Towards the end of the war, there were a bunch of parts
> laying around, and the plant decided to put them together even though
> they were from different model numbers, so they put Schwimm drivetrains
> with Kafer chassis and created a small number of 4 wheel drive Kafers.
> They are supposed to be the most valuable VW out there, and only a few
> exist.
>
> I have a book on the Kubel and Schwimm, and Kafer at home.  I can post
> some more details, at least as much as my German can read.
> TAS
>
> ************************************************************************
> *  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
> *  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
> *  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
> *  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
> *  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
> ************************************************************************
>
Tim-> It's nice to see that there people on the internet as interested in
WWII VWs as my self.  The Schwimm did not however have a rudder but
instead steered with the turning of the front wheels.  There was also a
model of the Kubelwagen made with a wood burning stove mounted up front
on the hood,  The chimney of which went to the intake manifold of the
engine and the vehicle could run on about five percent of the normal
amount of gasoline, running mostly off of the unburnt hydrocarbons in the
woodsmoke instead.  Pretty cool eh?

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 18:07:44 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>
Subject: Re: INF: 50 Years Ago Today - 09-JUN-1944

>      *US destroyer MEREDITH (DD-726) sunk by horizontal bombing in Normandy
>      area.*
>      The only type of bombing with which I am familiar is *vertical*. Is
>      *horizontal bombing* the same as shooting artillery or is it another
>      form of air to ground warfare about which I know nothing? HELP!

Well, it stands to reason that the bomb will leave the aircraft traveling
forward at the same speed, say 250 mph. So given a bomber flying low
enough, it could indeed put a bomb thru the hull of a ship from the side
(I think!).

Alternately, the reference might be to skip-bombing, which B-26 crews
practiced on Lake Whatchamacallit near New Orleans, skimming a bomb off
the water to impact a surface vessel.
\
            - Dan      <dan.ford@unh.edu>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Jun 1994 09:11:03 +1000
From:    Mick Fauchon <ulmjf@DEWEY.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: TRV: Volkswagens

        Dan,

           The plan was far from a scam, and "enforced" is not a good word.
Deliveries *were* made during the war, and photographs show "civilian"
Beetles appearing even on the Fronts.
        The prototypes had no rear window, production models delivered
did have the double rear pane.
        BTW, the Beetle was also variously referred to as the "KdF-Wagen",
as the payment and delivery was to be organised by the "Kraft durch Freude"
(Strength through Joy) Movement. The plan was instigated and operating
successfully before the war. Wartime production naturally gave priority to
military variants.

                                                                Cheers,

                                                                Mick.

--                                                                          --
Mick Fauchon                          | Internet: ulmjf@dewey.newcastle.edu.au
Reference Section, Auchmuty Library   | Ph  (intl+61+49) 215861
University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA    | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833

On Thu, 9 Jun 1994, Dan Ford wrote:

> Except for a few display models, I don't think the Bug actually went into
> production. Instead it became something like War Bonds here--or a scam,
> if you prefer. Thousands of German workers signed up to buy one on the
> installment plan. Delivery would come with the end of the war. I wonder
> if any of these contracts were ever enforced upon the Volkswagen company?
>
> Apart from the fact that it didn't really exist, that pre-war Bug had
> another disadvantage: no rear window.
>
>             - Dan      <dan.ford@unh.edu>
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 19:14:12 -0700
From:    Ed Kettler <deradler@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: INF: 50 Years Ago Today - 09-JUN-1944

Horizontal, a la B-17/B-24/B-29, straight and level.  There are others:
dive (steep dive), glide (shallow dive) and skip (bounce the bomb into
the target).  High performance planes (like modern attack jets) may
toss/lob the weapon.

Hope that helps,

Ed Kettler                                       deradler@netcom.com


On Thu, 9 Jun 1994, Jones, Scott T. wrote:

>      John Davis wrote...
>
>      *US destroyer MEREDITH (DD-726) sunk by horizontal bombing in Normandy
>      area.*
>
>
>      The only type of bombing with which I am familiar is *vertical*. Is
>      *horizontal bombing* the same as shooting artillery or is it another
>      form of air to ground warfare about which I know nothing? HELP!
>
>      Scott
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>      Scott T. Jones                | "Never get into a gun fight with seven
>      Dahlgren, VA 22448  USA       |  men when you only have a six-shooter."
>      Internet: Sjones@LOGICON.COM  |
> _____________________________________________________________________________
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 21:52:13 -0500
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: TRIV Amphib. VWs and Panzer "Blue Book"

>From:    "Jones, Scott T." <sjones@LOGICON.COM>
>Subject: TRV: Volkswagens

>    Yet another trivia question from me...
>
>    Is it true that the VW *Bug* was designed by the Germans for use as a
>    troop carrier THROUGH water obstacles? I understand that they were
>    designed with air/water tight construction features for this purpose.
>    Are there any other attempts by the Nazis to design/build vehicles
>    designed to negotiate water obstacles?
>
>     Scott
>
> End of WWII-L Digest - 7 Jun 1994 to 8 Jun 1994
> ***********************************************

Hi Scott,

The Germans did come out with a specifically designed amphibious VW in
'41 (type 128) called Schwimmwagen.  It had a boatlike hull with no
doors and a propeller that, when lowered into position engaged the
drive motor and turned the prop.  It also had paddles to aid steering
when doing river crossings in swift current.

I got some good video of running examples while I was in Italy.  As
for the bug being designed for amphib. operation, I have not seen
anything specific on that.  I have seen photos of the bug used by
military formations and marked with unit insignias but that's it.

The movie _Castle Keep_ has a scene where one of the men falls in love
with a captured VW and his buddies run it into the moat of the castle
and shoot it till it sinks but it re-emerges - odd movie but your
question triggered the connection there.

The more common Schwimmwagen (type 166) came out in 1942 and saw
widespread use in Russia and Europe.  The way San Antonio floods there
has been more than a few times I wished I was sitting in a
Schwimmwagen at the time.

While looking in _Kraftfahrzeuge und Panzer_ by Werner Oswald I came
across a table that is germane to discussions earlier on costs of
panzers to build.  I'll summarize it here for your interest.

Preise deutscher Panzerfahrzeuge  - Prices of German Armored Vehicles
(ohne Waffen und Funkausruestung) (without weapons and radio gear)

Vierrad-Panzer-Spaehwagen (4 wheel armor recce)   Reich Marks 20,000
Mittl. Halbketten-Schutzenpzw. (halftrack)               RM   23,000
Panzer II                                                RM   50,000
Achtrad-Panzer-Spaehwagen (8 wheel armor recce)          RM   53,000
Geschuetzwagen 38(t)  (Czechoslovak mfg - Marder III)    RM   53,000
Sturmgeschuetz III (Assault Gun)                         RM   85,000
Panzer III                                               RM  100,000
Panzer IV                                                RM  110,000
Panzer V (Panther)                                       RM  120,000
Panzer VI (Tiger 1)                                      RM  260,000

So it looks as though assault guns were not *that* much cheaper than
Panthers but Tigers got pricey in a hurry.  Were I a German commander
I think I would rather have 2 Panthers than one Tiger for the cost.

Tim Scherrer - Congrats on getting those railroad tracks!  Also, I
really enjoyed your posts on the D-Day reenactment.  I wished I had
seen it.  I bet it was a sight to behold.  Any chance of getting a
copy of the front page of the paper with your photo on it?  I'd settle
for a Xerox.  While you are at it maybe you could xerox the photos you
took too, eh?  I'd be more than happy to pick up the cost to get
copies.

Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 23:24:06 EDT
From:    "Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor,
         Marist Coll" <JZML@MARISTB.BITNET>
Subject: Re: GEN: D-DAY AND A FEW DAYS THAT FOLLOWED

>  On June 7, the 8th Regiment cleaned out a nest of Germans which
>held high ground between us and Ste. Mere Eglise, which was occupied by
>the 82nd Airborne forces commanded by John Wayne (g).  (Incidentally, does
>anyone know why he never did any military service?)

I believe he had a punctured ear-drum (but I could be wrong.) Actors
Jimmy Stewart and Chester Morris (Boston Blackie) had admirable war
records.
Regards-

Jonah Triebwasser
Adjunct Instructor
Marist College
Dyson Building (Adult Education)
Poughkeepsie, New York12601
Tel: (914) 575-3331, ext. 7037
E-Mail: jzml@maristb.marist.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 9 Jun 1994 22:36:16 -0500
From:    Micheal Whitaker <MWW8131@TNTECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN: D-DAY AND A FEW DAYS THAT FOLLOWED

>  On June 7, the 8th Regiment cleaned out a nest of Germans which
>held high ground between us and Ste. Mere Eglise, which was occupied by
>the 82nd Airborne forces commanded by John Wayne (g).  (Incidentally, does
>anyone know why he never did any military service?)

>  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo, Norway

I saw a documentary that said John Wayne received a deferment because of having
a large family.

There was also an incident where Wayne was visting wounded soliders recuping
in a hospital.  Instead of being overjoyed to see him, the soliders started
throwing bedpans at him and in general telling him what they felt about him.
The soliders had seen his movies and were eager to get into the war, then they
saw how unglamrous war could be.  Somehow they all decided to blame him.

                                                  Micheal Whitaker
                                                  MWW8131@TNTECH.EDU

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 8 Jun 1994 to 9 Jun 1994
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 48 messages totalling 1603 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. GEN: VON LUCK
  2. GEN: D-DAY AND A FEW DAYS THAT FOLLOWED (2)
  3. INF: 50 Years Ago Today - 10-JUN-1944
  4. INF: 50 Years Ago Today - 09-JUN-1944 (2)
  5. TRV: Actors and the War (16)
  6. GEN: GERMAN VIEWS ABOUT WWII
  7. TRIV Amphib. VWs and Panzer "Blue Book" (2)
  8. [INF] USAAF 10-12 JUN 44
  9. INF: 50 Years Ago Today 09-JUN-1944
 10. AAHS JOURNAL
 11. Rudolf Hess, Laibach & Macbeth (2)
 12. GEN: COL. JAMES VAN FLEET
 13. Ok so its B 25s (2)
 14. Re[2]: INF: 50 Years Ago Today - 09-JUN-1944 (4)
 15. Jimmy Stewart
 16. MEDIA: War Comes to America (7)
 17. <No subject given>
 18. Droopsnoots and other ugly P-38s
 19. MEDIA:  War Comes To America

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Jun 1994 14:02:37 +0200
From:    John Ausland <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: GEN: VON LUCK

  Oslo, June 10.  I noted Sidney Allison's message about the murder of the two
British paratroopers.  The way in which the media have taken up von Luck has
bothered me a bit.  He was, after all, a senior German officer who was carrying
out Hitler's commands, not a young boy who did not know what he was doing.
  Von Luck appeared on the Larry King program from Normandy on June 6 on CNN.
When he appeared, a couple of young people, one of which was French, said they
considered him a friend.  After that, an American vet, who was I believe from
the 29th, commented sourly that he was disturbed by this.  He said he did not
warm to von Luck because he killed Americans in a gentlemanly way.
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Jun 1994 10:33:41 CET
From:    "LTC Donnell, Doug" <4atf@PIRMASENS-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Re: GEN: D-DAY AND A FEW DAYS THAT FOLLOWED

John -

Regarding your question about John Wayne; he was classified "4F" by the
selective service (physically unfit for duty) so was exempted from the
military.

While I'm at the keyboard, I'd like to thank you for your fascinating
posts -- and to express my gratitude for the sacrifices you and your
fellow veterans made in bringing the war to an end.

                        Doug Donnell

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Jun 1994 07:30:52 -0500
From:    John Davis <JBDML@OSBM6.OSBM.STATE.NC.US>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago Today - 10-JUN-1944

On 10-JUN-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
France - The American V and VII Corps of the US 1st Army join up at
     Auville-sur-le-Vey. The town of Carentan is still held by the German 17th
     Armoured Division. The 101st Airborne begins to surround Carentan. The
     American 9th Division begins to land; making the total number of Allied
     forces 325,000 men. The US V Corps reaches the road linking Bayeux to St
     Lo. The British I and XXX Corps are still putting pressure on Caen. The
     British 7th Armoured Division begins attacks toward Tilly-sur-Seulles and
     meets strong resistance from the German Panzerlehr Division.

Italian Front - Units of the British V Corps reach Chieti and Pescara on the
     Adriatic coast. The South African 5th Armoured Division is slowed down at
     the outskirts of Bagnoregio by German readguard actions. The New Zealand
     2nd Division tapes Avezzano.

New Guinea - The Americans on Biak are meeting stronger Japanese resistance;
     while resistance in the Aitape area is weakening.

Burma/China - The American and Chinese attacks against Myitkyina fail. Chinese
     trrops beseige Kaming in the Mogaung valley. The Chinese 87th and 88th
     Divisions attack Lungling on the Salween front. In China the Japanese
     advance along the river Liu-yang with five divisions and threaten
     Changsha which is north of Canton.

Naval Dispatches
----------------
US Destroyer GLENNON (DD-620) sunk by coastal defense gun in Normandy area.

Japanese submarine RO-42 sunk by destroyer escort BANGUST (DE-739) near
     Marshall Islands.

The Homefront
-------------
Broughton Discounts "Revolt" - Gov. J. Melville Broughton of North Carolina
     says in New York that the anti-Roosevelt "revolt" against a 4th term
     election is unlikely to cost the President electoral votes.

Boyington Reported Safe - Mrs. E.J. Hallenbeck, mother of Major Gregory
     Boyington, has received word that Boyington who is missing is action is
     safe on an undisclosed island.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  jbd@osbm.state.nc.us
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Jun 1994 07:41:58 EDT
From:    MNHAD007@SIVM.SI.EDU
Subject: Re: INF: 50 Years Ago Today - 09-JUN-1944

Dan, You may mean Lake Pontchartrain No. of the Big Easy.  Pronounce it like
ponch - a - train.     Also didn't B 29 crews practise for the Doolittle Raid a
nd others off the coast of the Florida panhandle near Apalachicola and
Choctawhatchee?  I remember one Col. back in the 60s talking about this at Bilo
xi.  What is the AFB near Ft. Walton Beach?  I think that is the Command I was
thinking of?

H. A. Kurt Luginbyhl
Scientific Computer Specialist
National Museum of Natural History
Washington D.C. 20560

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Jun 1994 08:44:16 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: TRV: Actors and the War

On Thu, 9 Jun 1994 23:24:06 EDT Jonah Triebwasser, Adjunct Instructor, Marist Co
>>. . . . Ste. Mere Eglise, which was occupied by
>>the 82nd Airborne forces commanded by John Wayne (g).  (Incidentally, does
>>anyone know why he never did any military service?)
>
>I believe he had a punctured ear-drum (but I could be wrong.) Actors
>Jimmy Stewart and Chester Morris (Boston Blackie) had admirable war
>records.

Well-known personalities tended to be discouraged from active service,
perhaps for morale reasons, perhaps because their very fame would detract
from their own & their units' training/performance.  Regardless, does anyone
know which actors--any country--actually served in combat units and what
they did?

ken koester
maint2@ers.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Jun 1994 20:46:25 +0200
From:    John Ausland <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: GEN: GERMAN VIEWS ABOUT WWII

  Oslo, June 10.
  The influential German weekly DER SPIEGEL has in its latest issue an
article about how Germans feel about themselves.  It says that 56 percent of
them believe Germany was responsible for starting the war and 64 percent
find it good that it lost the war.
  It is somewhat reassuring that so many hold these views.  Nevertheless, it
should be noted that this means that 44 percent are either uncertain or do
not agree that Germany started the war.  Furthermore, 36 percent are either
uncertain or believe that it was not good that Germany lost.
  On the other hand, 76 percent do not long for another Hitler, while 15
percent believe that Germany would be better off with a "strong man."
  Unfortunately, Der Spiegel did not break this data down by age.
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo, Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Jun 1994 09:18:50 -0400
From:    "Mr. Scott Hannon" <hannon@UMBC.EDU>
Subject: Re: TRIV Amphib. VWs and Panzer "Blue Book"

Thanks for the post on panzer costs.
Scott.
Scott Hannon, Fri Jun 10 1994 (hannon@umbc.edu)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Jun 1994 08:34:35 CDT
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: TRIV Amphib. VWs and Panzer "Blue Book"

If anyone wants a copy of some of the photos(photocopies that is) and
the newspaper articles please send me a self addressed stamped envelope
and I'd be glad to send you a copy.  The info will be about 8 pages
long, so send enough postage and a large enough envelope to cover that.

I got my photos back yesterday--all B&W.  They turned out pretty
good--except for the Sears Tower and other buildings in the background.
I got some good beach shots, and good ones of loading landing craft.  I
also got a few of aircraft, to include the B-25, and the P-51's in
duckling formation (one after the other).  My camera is not real complex
so none of the aircraft ones are close up's, but look more like the ones
ground troops would take.

BTW, it me and my roomate an average of 3 hours to clean our Garands.
They started out in the bathtub.  Kinda scary when the bolt sounds like
sandpaper when you pull it back.

Send any requests for D-Day stuff to me at: Tim A. Scherrer
904 East Washington Street, Kirksville, MO 63501.

John Ausland is getting a set of real prints from the event.  If anyone
else landed on D-Day they can get a set too.  Sorry but I just can;t
afford postage and printing real copies for everyone.

TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Jun 1994 09:56:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 10-12 JUN 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
10 - 12 JUNE 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  Beaufighter, Bristol
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  F-6, North American Mustang
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

SATURDAY, 10 JUNE 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 23 B-24s bomb targets at Chauk,
Lonywa and Yenangyaung while 29 others supply ammunition to the Imphal, India
area; 50 A-36s, P-51s and P-40s blast targets at Myitkyina, Mogaung and Tapo.
315th Troop Carrier Squadron, 443d Troop Carrier Group, moves from Sylhet to
Sookerating, India with C-47s.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 23 P-40s and P-51s hit railroad
traffic and tracks at Linfen and Loning and a tank concentration at Lingpao;
6 P-40s hit a bridge at Tasa; B-25s, P-40s, P-51s and P-38s carry out 150+
sorties against numerous targets throughout the Tungting Lake area; numerous
rivercraft are destroyed or damaged, Kukang and other villages WE of Changsha
are bombed, Hankow-Wuchang Airfield revetments and buildings are pounded,
the Changshowkai area is blasted and several river landings and storage
installations in the lake area are attacked; 3 B-24s on a S China Sea sweep
claim 1 small cargo ship sunk; and 75th Fighter Squadron, 23d Fighter Group,
moves from Hengyang to Lingling with P-51s.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 403: Bad weather restricts
operations to NW France; 883 bombers and 1,491 fighter sorties are flown but
200+ bombers abort due to cloud conditions; 1 bomber and 24 fighters are lost.
  1. 507 B-17s are dispatched to Equihen (24 bomb), Hardelot (23 bomb), St
Gabriel (26 bomb), Gael Airfield (36 bomb), Nantes/Bouguenais Airfield (55
bomb), Vannes Airfield (59 bomb), Berck (26 bomb), Merlimont Plage (39 bomb),
and Toucquet-Paris-Plage (10 bomb); 1 B-17 is damaged beyond repair and 36
damaged; 6 airmen are KIA and 4 WIA.
  2. 257 B-24s are dispatched to Wimereau (23 bomb), Boulogne (34 bomb),
Dreux Airfield (26 bomb), Evreux/Fauville Airfield (65 bomb) and Boulogne (13
bomb); 39 others hit Conches Airfield; 1 B-24 is lost, 2 are damaged beyond
repair and 28 damaged; 10 airmen are MIA.
  3. 119 B-24s are dispatched to Chateaudun Airfield (45 bomb) and Orleans/
Bricy Airfield (66 bomb) without loss.
  VIII Fighter Command missions during the day are:
  1. 405 P-38s fly sweep and escort; they claim 5-2-1 Luftwaffe aircraft.
  2. 3 P-47s and 364 P-51s provided escort for the bombers above; they claim
0-0-1 Luftwaffe aircraft on the ground; 7 fighters are lost.
  3. 506 P-47s and 213 P-51s fly fighter-bomber missions against
communications targets in the beachhead area; they claim 8-0-2 Luftwaffe
aircraft in the air and 1-0-1 on the ground; 15 P-47s and 2 P-51 are lost; 3
P-47s and a P-51 are damaged beyond repair.
  During the day, 1 fighter pilot is KIA and 24 are MIA.
  Mission 404: During the evening, 11 B-17s drop leaflets on Norway and
France without loss.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, 500+ B-26s and A-20s bomb
targets in the assault area including military concentrations, road and rail
bridges and junctions, artillery batteries, marshalling yards and town areas;
aircraft of 15+ fighter groups fly escort to bombers and transports, and bomb
numerous targets in support of the ground assault, including rail facilities,
roads, troop concentrations, artillery, and town areas; HQ IX Tactical Air
Command moves from Uxbridge, England to Au Gay.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 550+ B-17s and B-24s attack
targets in Italy; B-17s hit a marshalling yard at Mestre and oil storage and
marshalling yard at Porto Marghera; B-24s hit oil refinery at Trieste, air
depot at Ferrara and the town of Ancona. P-51s and P-38s fly escort, and in
Rumania, strafe targets of opportunity between Bucharest and the Danube River
and S of Craiova, and dive-bomb an oil refinery at Ploesti.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium bombers attack
bridges, railroads, and roads N, NE, and NW of Rome; light bombers hit motor
transport in the town of Arcidosso; fighter-bombers and fighters bomb and
strafe motor transport and roads N of the battle area, destroying numerous
vehicles, especially along the roads between Rome and Vetralla; in ground
action the Indian 4 Division takes Pescara and Chieti, while the New Zealand
2 Division reaches Avezzano E of Rome; HQ XII Bomber Command is disbanded in
Corsica; HQ 47th Bombardment Group (Light) and 84th Bombardment Squadron
(Light) move from Vesuvius Airfield to Ponte Galeria with A-20s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-24s, staging through Eniwetok
Atoll, bomb Truk Atoll and Ponape Island during the night of 9/10 Jun. B-25s
from Makin Island hit Nauru Island during the day.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 8
P-38s skip-bomb supply tunnels at Keravia Bay while 4 others strafe nearby AA
positions; AA guns S of Rapopo are attacked by 12 B-25s, 20 P-39s, and 20+ US
Navy (USN) dive bombers; other B-25s bomb Ratawul. 31 P-39s and 20+ USN
aircraft hit Chinatown at Buka on Buka Island and a supply area NE of the
airstrip, a barge at Sohano Island, and on Bougainville Island, trucks near
Tsirogei and a ford near Monoitu.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, A-20s hit the
airfield at Babo, destroying grounded aircraft, a fuel dump, several
buildings, and a gun position; A-20s, B-25s, and Royal Australian Air Force
(RAAF) aircraft hit the Wewak area with 100+ tons of bombs; HQ 312th
Bombardment Group (Light) and 387th and 389th Bombardment Squadrons (Light)
move from Gusap to Hollandia (Group and 389th) and Nadzab (387th) with A-20s;
air echelon of 17th Reconnaissance Squadron (Bombardment), 71st Tactical
Reconnaissance Group, that has been operating from Wakde with B-25s since 25
May, returns to base at Finschhafen.

SUNDAY, 11 JUNE 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): 55 A-36s, P-51s and P-40s attack targets at
Myitkyina, Mogaung, Indawgyi Lake and Padaung, Burma. In India, 30 B-25s
continue flying ammunition to the Imphal area; 9th Bombardment Squadron
(Heavy), 7th Bombardment Group (Heavy), moves from Pandaveswar to Kurmitola
with B-24s; and detachment of 530th Fighter Squadron, 311th Fighter Group,
operating from Kurmitola with P-40s, returns to base at Dinjan.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China's Tungting Lake area 80+ P-40s,
P-51s, and P-38s pound the towns of Lanchi and Anking, hit a cavalry compound
at Kintsing, attack Japanese HQ, positions, and river traffic N of Changsha,
destroy or damage several boats, barges, and sampans at Changsha, and strafe
numerous targets of opportunity throughout the entire region; in the Yellow
River area, 27 B-25s and P-40s pound barracks, fortifications, tank
concentration, several armored vehicles, and cavalry forces at Iching and
Lingpao; 3 B-25s on a sea sweep in the S China Sea claim a 600-ft (183 m)
freighter sunk.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 405: Weather prevents
operations against priority targets in Germany so the bombers attack targets
in France; 1,055 bombers and 914 fighter sorties are flown; over 400 bombers
abort or fail to bomb due to clouds and absence or malfunction of Pathfinders;
3 bombers and 8 fighters are lost:
  1. 471 B-17s are dispatched to airfields at Beaumont-le-Roger (38 bomb),
Bernay/St Martin (50 bomb) and Dinard/Pluertuit (37 bomb), and Toucquet-Paris-
Plage (27 bomb), Merlimont Plage (34 bomb), Pontaubault Bridge (50 bomb) and
Berck (36 bomb); 33 others hit Conches Airfield and 4 hit targets of
opportunity; 2 B-17s are lost, 1 is damaged beyond repair and 11 damaged; 20
airmen are MIA.
  2. 584 B-24s are dispatched to airfields at Cormeilles-en-Vexin (34 bomb),
Beauvais/Nivelliers (27 bomb), Beaumont-sur-Oise (36 bomb) and Creil (19
bomb) and Vicomte-sur-Rance (19 bomb), Montford Bridge (18 bomb) and Blois/St
Denis (41 bomb); 12 others hit Beauvais/Tille Airfield, 7 hit Poix Airfield,
32 hit Montauban marshalling yard and 52 hit targets of opportunity; 1 B-24
is lost and 14 damaged; 1 airman is KIA, 3 WIA and 4 MIA.
  87 P-47s and 144 P-51s provide escort for the bombers without loss.
Other fighter missions are:
  1. 143 P-38s patrol the beachhead and claim 2-0-0 Luftwaffe aircraft
without loss.
  2. 77 P-38s, 195 P-47s and 268 P-51s fly fighter-bomber missions against
communications targets in NW France; the P-38s claim 3-2-5 Luftwaffe aircraft
in the air and 0-0-1 on the ground; 3 P-38s, 1 P-47 and 4 P-51s are lost; 7
of the 8 pilots are MIA.
  Mission 406: During the night, 5 B-17s drop leaflets on France and the Low
Countries without loss.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, 129 B-26s and A-20s bomb
rail and road bridges and intersections, rail lines, oil tanks, artillery and
town areas, in morning operations; bad weather prevents afternoon operations;
10 fighter groups fly escort and strafe and bomb bridges, railroads, gun
emplacements, rail and road traffic and marshalling yards in support of
ground troops.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 126 B-17s and 60 P-51s depart
Russian shuttle bases for Italy to complete the first FRANTIC operation. On
the way 121 B-17s bomb the Focsani, Rumania airfield; 1 B-l7 is lost. 540+
other B-17s and B-24s attack targets in Rumania and Yugoslavia; the B-17s
attack the Smederevo, Yugoslavia marshalling yard; the B-24s attack oil
installations at Constanta and Giurpiu, Rumania (both raids having fighter
escorts); the AAF claims 60 aircraft destroyed during the days missions. 99th
Fighter Squadron, 332d Fighter Group (attached to 86th Fighter Group, Twelfth
Air Force), moves from Pignataro to Ciampino, Italy with P-47s.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, weather cancels all
light and medium bomber operations; fighter-bombers and fighters operating on
a reduced scale, hit vehicles, roads, and bridges N of the battleline which
the US Fifth Army's VI Corps has extended 95 mi (153 km) N of Rome; HQ 79th
Fighter Group and 85th, 86th and 87th Fighter Squadrons move from Pomigliano
to Corsica with P-47s; 111th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron, XII Tactical
Air Command, moves from Nettuno to Galera with F-6s; 415th Night Fighter
Squadron, 64th Fighter Wing, moves from Pomigliano to La Banca with
Beaufighters; and 524th, 525th and 526th Fighter Squadrons, 27th Fighter
Group, move from La Banca (524th) and Marcianise (525th and 526th) to
Ciampino with P-47s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): B-24s from Eniwetok Atoll hit
Truk Atoll during the night of 11/12 Jun. B-25s follow with a raid against
Ponape Island during the morning.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): 130+ B-25s, P-38s P-39s and
US Navy (USN) dive bombers pound AA positions S and SW of Rapopo, New Britain
Island. On Bougainville Island, P-39s fly 44 sorties against occupied areas
at Komai, Kakaura, and Quaga, AA guns at Kangu Hill, and plantations at
Arigua and Tsirogei.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, B-24s bomb
Sorido Airfield and surrounding areas as US carrier forces attack Saipan,
Tinian and Guam Islands in the Marianas Islands; B-25s, A-20s, and P-47s
continue to saturate the Wewak-Hansa Bay coastline with bombs; 388th
Bombardment Squadron (Light), 312th Bombardment Group (Light), moves from
Gusap to Nadzab with A-20s. Thirteenth Air Task Force B-24s bomb Dublon
Island in Truk Atoll and the airfield on Peleliu Island.

MONDAY, 12 JUNE 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): 30+ B-25s continue to supply troops at
Imphal, India with ammunition. 16 P-40s hit Mogaung and targets of
opportunity in N Burma.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 50 P-40s, P-51s and B-25s hit troop
concentrations in the Yellow River area at Lingpao and S of Loyang; in the
Tungting Lake area about 100 P-40s and P-51s attack numerous supply boats and
other river and lake traffic, and hit dock areas and warehouses at Lanchi,
Yuankiang and at scattered points; also hit are villages and troops in the
Changsha and Kuanchuang areas; 118th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron,
Fourteenth Air Force, moves from Gushkara, India to Chengkung with P-51s.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 407: With bad weather over
top priority targets in Germany, 1,442 bombers are dispatched against
airfields and landing grounds in NE France and rail and road bridges on the
Brest Peninsula; 691 of 769 B-17s and 586 of 673 B-24s hit 16 airfields and
6 railroad bridges in the Rennes and St Nazaire area; they claim 1-1-0
Luftwaffe aircraft; 6 B-17s and 2 B-24s are lost; 1 B-17 and 2 B-24s are
damaged beyond repair; and 188 B-17s and 52 B-24s are damaged; 7 airmen are
KIA, 14 WIA and 58 MIA.
  988 fighter sorties are flown with the loss of 16 aircraft; 15 pilots are
MIA:
  1. 234 P-38s, 80 P-47s and 201 P-51s fly escort, sweeps and patrols over
the Channel NW of Paris and in the Rennes area; they claim 20-0-8 Luftwaffe
aircraft in the air and 1-0-0 on the ground; 3 P-38s, 1 P-47 and 3 P-51s
are lost; 1 P-38 is damaged beyond repair.
  2. 93 P-38s and 183 P-47s fly fighter-bomber missions against 5 railroad
bridges in the Tours-Paris area; they claim 5-0-2 Luftwaffe aircraft in the
air and 1-0-0 on the ground; 1 P-38 and 8 P-47s are lost; 1 each is damaged
beyond repair.
  3. 45 P-38s and 152 P-51s fly escort for Ninth Air Force A-20s and B-26s.
  Mission 408: 7 of 7 B-17s drop leaflets on France and Belgium during the
night without loss.
  16 B-24s fly CARPETBAGGER missions.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, 509 B-26s and A-20s bomb
marshalling yards, road and rail junctions, bridges, artillery, town areas,
troop concentrations and various targets of opportunity; aircraft of 15+
fighter groups fly close and area support for bombers and bomb and strafe
rail lines, gun batteries, bridges, fortifications, radar installation,
tanks, ammunition dumps, town areas and strongpoints in the battle area. In
England, HQ 366th Fighter Group begins a movement from Thruxton to France; HQ
442d Troop Carrier Group and 303d and 304th Troop Carrier Squadrons move from
Fulbeck to Weston Zoyland with C-47s; and 425th Night Fighter Squadron, IX
Air Defense Command, moves from Chormy Down to Scorton with P-61s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium bombers hit
bridges, viaducts, and rail lines at Collazone, Perugia, Foligno, Massa
Lombarda, Pietrasanta, Cattolica, Pesaro, Arezzo and Bucine; light bombers
hit Arcidosso and motor transport in the area; fighter-bombers are restricted
by bad weather but attack several bridges and roads in the line of enemy
retreat which at its farthest point is N and W of Viterbo; moves in Italy: HQ
86th Fighter Group and 527th Fighter Squadron from Marcianise to Ciampino
with P-47s; 5th Combat Mapping Squadron, 3d Photographic Group
(Reconnaissance), from Pomigliano to Nettuno with F-5s; 97th Bombardment
Squadron (Light), 47th Bombardment Group (Light), from Vesuvius Airfield to
Ponte Galeria; and 522d and 523d Fighter Squadrons, 27th Fighter Group, from
Le Banca to Ciampino with P-47s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): Eniwetok Atoll-based B-24s hit
Truk Atoll during the night of 11/12 Jun and again during the day.

SOUTH PACIFIC AREA (SOPAC, Thirteenth Air Force): On New Britain Island, 6
B-24s bomb runways at Tobera and Rapopo; 22 P-39s and 10 P-38s join 20+ USN
aircraft in attacks on supply dumps near Ralum; and 20 B-25s pound Malapau
village. 44 P-39s hit the airfield on Buka Island and on Bougainville Island,
Tsirogei plantation, barges and pier S of Kleine Island and the occupied area
W of Komai.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA (SWPA, Fifth Air Force): In New Guinea, fierce ground
fighting continues on Biak Island while Japanese aircraft attack Allied
ground forces and shipping offshore; P-47s battle attacking aircraft,
shooting down several; P-47s and A-20s hit troop concentrations,
communications and various other targets in the Wewak and Hansa Bay areas;
82d Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron, 71st Tactical Reconnaissance Group,
moves from Saidor to Biak Island with P-39s; and 386th Bombardment Squadron
(Light), 312th Bombardment Group (Light), moves from Gusap to Nadzab with
A-20s. Thirteenth Air Task Force B-24s bomb Dublon Island, Truk Atoll and the
airfield on Peleliu Island.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Jun 1994 10:25:53 -0400
From:    Max Calderwood <maxc@URSUS1.URSUS.MAINE.EDU>
Subject: Re: TRV: Actors and the War

Ken,

I do remember that Clark Galbe entered the service as an E-1 at age of
45.  I think he served as an air gunner/crewman on B-17s in the European
theatre and was mustered out a Captain in late 1944.

Max C. Calderwood
University of Southern Maine
Gorham, ME
MAXC@URSUS1.URSUS.MAINE.EDU

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Jun 1994 10:25:56 EDT
From:    SKIP WILDER <PHSP11A@PRODIGY.COM>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago Today 09-JUN-1944

Kurt,
        Believe you're thinking of Eglin Air Force Base where the Doolittle
Raiders trained.  BTW, they flew the B-25, not B-29.
        Regards,

 -----------------------------------------------------------
 |    Skip Wilder              |                           |
 |    phsp11a@prodigy.com      |"The road to hell is paved |
 |    FAX (703)528-2103        | with good intentions."    |
 |    McLean, Virginia, U.S.A. |                           |
 -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Jun 1994 10:03:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: AAHS JOURNAL

I received my Summer 1994 issue of the JOURNAL of the American Aviation
Historical Socity (AAHS).  Any additions I have made to the contents of the
JOURNAL are in brackets [].

1. In NEWS & COMMENT FROM OUR MEMBERS, Jay E. Wright of Chico, California
has found an intriguing photograph that he is trying to run down without
much luck.  The photograph shows a light aircraft, without landing gear,
attached to the gondola of a blimp.  The caption to the photograph on page
160 states, "In March 1944 a Piper NE-1 [Cub/Grasshopper] was assigned to
Airship Squadron 32 [ZP-32] at NAS Lakehurst, New Jersey.  The NE-1 was
modified as shown and mounted on a retractable trapeze on one of the
squadron [M-Series] blimps.  The story was that the NE-1 could be launched
and retrieved from the blimp although the ultimate intention was to load a
depth charge into the plane, launch it as a drone and steer it into a
surfaced submarine."  Mr Wright is trying to locate Rear Admiral D.S.
Fahrney, USN (Retired) who was a foremost authority on drone aircraft.  If
anyone has any information about Admiral Fahrney or about the NE-1/Blimp
project, you can contact me or Mr. Wright.

2. The back cover of the JOURNAL is a color print of "A northbound
high-flying Martin B-26C-45-MO Marauder (s/n 42-107614) seen just passing
the approach end of the runway at the Glenn L. Martin-Nebraska Company at
Omaha.  The painting by Richard R. Broome depicts the Martin Bomber plant
and Fort Crook, Nebraska, as it was in 1943.  It is now Offutt Air Force
Base.  (Painted for Captain W. Gene Vogel, Panama City, Florida.)"

3. The articles in this JOURNAL are:

   - CASE HISTORY OF THE [DOUGLAS] XB-43 [JETMASTER] AIRPLANE compiled by
Historical Office, Air Materiel Command, Wright-Patterson AFB, November
1948.

   - A BELL TEST PILOT TALKS, Chalmers H. Goodlin's speech before the
Dallas/Fort Worth Socity of Experimental Test Pilots, The Society of Flight
Test Engineers, The American Helicopter Society and The American Institute
of Aeronautics and Astronautics, March 13, 1986.  Included are Crash
Reports for YP-59A-BE, USAAF s/n 42-108780 and XP-83-BE, USAAF s/n
44-84990.

   - HOVERBUGGY, an article about some really ugly VTOL machines.

   - TREETOP AIRMAIL - II, an account of the Development and Implementation
of a System to Provide Aerial Delivery of Letters and Light Cargo to Small
Communities by All American Aviation, Inc.

   - AVIATION PHOTOGRAPHER LYLE S. MITCHELL who took aviation pictures for
over 65 years.

   - THE IBERIAN MOSQUITO about civil registered Mosquitos in Spain.

   - THE CIVILIAN PILOT TRAINING PROGRAM at Parks Air College [East St.
Louis, Illinois prior to WWII].

   - THE AC-119 "SHADOW" GUNSHIPS [the dollar nineteen strikes back]

4. The FORUM OF FLIGHT contains photographs of aircraft.  Interesting shots
in this issue are:

   - A Boeing 314A at La Guardia Airport after being drafted by the USAAF as
a C-98.

   - A Bell P-39Q at Reno in 1972.

   - A SNC-1 at Oshkosh in 1974.

   - A Boeing F-9C Flying Fortress in British Guiana, Feb 45.

   - A B-24D BOSTON DEB in Panama, Jan 45.

   - A National Airlines DC-6B at Miami, May 59.

   - A USN Connecticut Aircraft Co. B-Series Blimp on Long Island, 1918.

   - A United Airlines Boeing 247D at Bakersfield, California, ca. 1938.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Jun 1994 11:27:58 MET
From:    Ireneusz Jakobik <SCUD@PLSZUS11.BITNET>
Subject: Rudolf Hess, Laibach & Macbeth

Few days ago I bougth a "Macbeth" CD by Laibach. It contains track
entitled "10.5.1941". It's a date of a day on which Rudolf Hess escaped
to Scotland in his Messerschmitt. It's a very short track, only 30 seconds
and contains sound of a flying aircraft (the only possibility to listen
to Bf-110!! :)  ) and then crash. All other tracks are performed by a
philcharmonical orchestra and their titles and drawings in a booklet
may suggest that the whole CD is about (or even dedicated to) Rudolf Hess,
although his name isn't mentioned anywhere in a booklet.
"Macbeth" was recorded in 1987/88, that's just after Hess had died in Spandau
prison. Booklet contains drawing of a man jumping out of an aircraft and
other drawing of a two candles surrounded by a barbed wire (symbol of his
death in prison?).
Track titles are as follows:
part 1: NJC 11                  part 2: NJ-Oo
Preludium                       10.5.1941
Agnus Dei (Acropolis)           Expectans Expectavos
Wutach Schlucht                 Coincidentia Oppositorum
Die Zeit                        Wolf
Ohne Geld                       Agnus Dei (Exil und Tod)
U.S.A.
I tried to to make a small research but I found only one book about Hess'
mission. It's "Shadow of the Wolf" by James Warwick and I suppose it
contains more fiction than facts. Anyway it's better than nothing.
Here is my interpretation of titles:
Agnus Dei means Lamb of God (Jesus Christ). Hess was a mistic, he believed
that he could save the world with help of anti-Soviets from England and
USA. It's also possible that his mission was inspired by pope Pius XII.
U.S.A. - according to "Shadow of the Wolf" Hess wanted to go to USA to
meet senator Joseph P. Kennedy. Is it true?
10.5.1941 - nothing to add
Wolf - was it Hitler's nick name?
the last track - Agnus Dei (Exil und Tod). Well...Hess didn't die on exile,
but in his vaterland. Or we may assume that he was exiled from England.
Does anyone on the list has any comments to other titles? And I'd like
to learn some more facts about Hess' mission. I've read that he wanted to
meet Lord Hamilton in Britain. What happened to Hamilton? Was he accused of
cooperation with Germans? Who was Alfred Horn? Was general Walker supposed
to take Hess to USA and was he arrested? Which other characters from
"Shadow..." are real and which are fictious? What was Hess'
responsibility for an anti-opposition terror before and during the war?
Thanks in advance...
Irek.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Jun 1994 17:37:07 CET
From:    "LTC Donnell, Doug" <4atf@PIRMASENS-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Re: TRV: Actors and the War

Hi Ken and all,

There were quite a few actors who joined up or were drafted, but I think
most went to non-combat jobs.  A few exceptions:

Jimmy Stewart - Flew 25 combat missions in a B-17 earning the Distinguised
(that was supposed to be "Distinguished") Flying Cross and an Air Medal.
BTW, he stayed in the AF Reserve following the war and retired as a
general officer.

Clark Gable - Enlisted in the Army Air Corps in 1942, but was soon
commissioned and given a job making training films.  He flew combat
missions in B-17s to film footage for the training films, earning a
Distinguished Flying Cross and Air Medal.

Henry Fonda - Enlisted in the Navy in 1942 and was assigned to a destroyer
as a quartermaster.  Received his commission and went on to Air Combat
Intelligence in the Pacific theater.  Earned a Bronze Star.

James Arness - Served in the Army.  Wounded at Anzio in Jan 44.

Mel Brooks - Combat Engineer.  Took part in Battle of the Bulge where
he deactivated land mines

I'm sure there are a bunch more, but don't have time to look them up
now.  If anyone is interested, I'll see what else I can dig up.

                          Doug Donnell

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Jun 1994 23:47:02 +0200
From:    John Ausland <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: GEN: COL. JAMES VAN FLEET

  I had an inquiry from Bob Babuka if the Van Fleet I mentioned was the same man
as the one who was later in Korea.  He was, and this prompts me to enter the
following excerpt from my book LETTERS HOME.


          A DIGRESSION: COL. VAN FLEET'S PATIENCE IS REWARDED, AND
          HE SAVES THE DAY

          This is a digression but too good a story to omit. At the time
          of the landing, Col. Van Fleet was one of the oldest colonels in
          the army. Having graduated from West Point the same year as
          General Eisenhower, he had fallen badly behind.

          When General Eisenhower came ashore, he evidently wondered
          why his classmate had not advanced further. By the end of the
          war Col. Van Fleet was a Lieutenant General, commanding a
          corps. He subsequently took charge of the anti-communist
          struggle in Greece and commanded US forces in Korea. In the
          process, he got a fourth star.

          Many years after the war, I heard a story about why he had
          stranded on the colonel rank. General Marshall confused him
          with another officer and refused to promote him to brigadier
          general.  Finding this difficult to believe, I asked General Earle
          G. Wheeler, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, about this
          when I was working in the Pentagon. He confirmed it. So did
          John Eisenhower and Forest C. Pogue, Marshall's biographer,
          during a train ride from Paris to Normandy in 1984, where we
          were going to commemorate the fortieth anniversary of the
          landing.

          In his biography of Marshall, Pogue said, "Supposedly because
          of a mixup of Van Fleet with another officer who had a similar
          name and a drinking problem, Marshall had opposed the
          promotion at first, but once he learned of his mistake, Van
          Fleet rose rapidly."

          When reading the biography of David Selznick, I ran across
          another irony. When Selznick was producing The Longest Day,
          his board of directors threatened to end the project, because
          most of them felt it was costing too much. There was, however,
          one member of the board who insisted the project continue and
          persuaded the others to go along with him. This person was
          General Van Fleet.

          Copyright 1993, John C. Ausland

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Jun 1994 09:40:30 -0700
From:    "Office TH325, Extension 3566" <RIEGSECKER@UPS.EDU>
Subject: Re: TRV: Actors and the War

>Well-known personalities tended to be discouraged from active service,
>perhaps for morale reasons, perhaps because their very fame would detract
>from their own & their units' training/performance.  Regardless, does anyone
>know which actors--any country--actually served in combat units and what
>they did?
>
>ken koester
>maint2@ers.bitnet

Some that come to mind.

1.  Leslie Howard was killed in a plane crash, but I don't know if he
was in a combat unit.

2.  Eddie Albert was at Tarawa.  He may not have been real famous then,
but he was already an actor and writer.

3.  Ted Williams was a marine fighter pilot in Korea, and I think in
WWII.

4.  There was also a very famous american actor at the time who served
aboard a navy ship.  That was before my time and the only names that
come to mind are Errol Flynn or one of the Barrymores, but I remember
coming across his name in varous accounts.

John Riegsecker
Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
University of Puget Sound

riegsecker@ups.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Jun 1994 09:44:40 -0700
From:    Patrick Charles <pchuck@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: TRV: Actors and the War

Jimmy Stewart comes to mind as someone who was in combat.  I believe he
was in the Army Air Corps.  Eventually he rose to an extremely high
rank.

Patrick J. Charles
University of Washington

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Jun 1994 12:57:13 EDT
From:    MNHAD007@SIVM.SI.EDU
Subject: Ok so its B 25s

Just everyone now knows how embarrassed I am.  I will apologize for replying
to messages before I've had coffee or breakfast or check sanity.  Elgin AFB
is what I was thinking about and I know as well as anyone its 25s not 29s.
I grateful that I only received 2 funny flamers from folks.  Lets not let
the summer months deter usfrom much discussion on our chosen topic.

H. A. Kurt Luginbyhl
Scientific Computer Specialist
National Museum of Natural History
Washington D.C. 20560

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Jun 1994 10:01:27 -0700
From:    Patrick Charles <pchuck@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Rudolf Hess, Laibach & Macbeth

        According to Grolier's Encyclopedia, Joseph P. Kennedy never ran
for elective office.  He was chairman of the Securities and Exchange
Commission for 1934-35, head of the U.S. Maritime Commission in 1937, and
he was U.S. Ambassador to Britian from 1937-1940.


> Agnus Dei means Lamb of God (Jesus Christ). Hess was a mistic, he believed
> that he could save the world with help of anti-Soviets from England and
> USA. It's also possible that his mission was inspired by pope Pius XII.
> U.S.A. - according to "Shadow of the Wolf" Hess wanted to go to USA to
> meet senator Joseph P. Kennedy.

Patrick J. Charles
University of Washington

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Jun 1994 07:22:43 PST
From:    "Jones, Scott T." <sjones@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: Re[2]: INF: 50 Years Ago Today - 09-JUN-1944

     First of all... thank you to everyone who responded to my original
     question regarding "horizontal bombing".

     Secondly, Robert Hohlt mentioned a "WW2 para frac bomb" in his
     response. Okay, guys, what is this? I am assuming a fragmentation bomb
     on a parachute with a delayed fuse to allow for an air burst?

     And thirdly, Jack McKillop posted "...except the P-38 which was also
     used as a horizontal bomber when the DROOPSNOOT method was used." Now,
     Jack, what in the heck is a "DROOPSNOOT method"?

     I thought I knew a lot about air combat but, as usual, you guys are
     humbling me and putting me back into my place.

     Scott

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
     Scott T. Jones                | "Think education is expensive?
     Dahlgren, VA 22448  USA       |  Try ignorance."
     Internet: Sjones@LOGICON.COM  |
_____________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Jun 1994 10:29:56 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: TRV: Actors and the War

A few actors who did their bit in WW2....
        Robert Stack, USN
        David Niven, British Army
        Lew Ayres, USN (combat medic, though a conscientous objector)
        Sabu, USAAF
        Tyrone Power, USMC
        Douglas Fairbanks, USN
        Dirk Boegard, British Army
        Lawrence Olivier, Royal Navy
        Anthony Quayle, British Army
Some others will come to me...
No doubt many others here will recall examples, too.
Regards -- Sidney.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Jun 1994 11:05:31 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: TRV: Actors and the War

Probably the most distinguished war service of an actor was that of
James Stewart, USAAF.  he flew as a B-17 pilot and squadron commander
with the US 8th Air Force out of England.  He also stayed on afterwards
in the Air Force Reserve, ending up a Brigadier General.
        Clark Gable was in his forties when he colunteered, also serving
with the 8th AD F. He was a comissioned air-gunner, and flew on some
bombing missions. His main contribution, though, was the production of
a movie about aerial gunners, made at the request of top brass, to help
recruit more gunners, whose high casualty level had caused a bit of a
fall-off in volunteers.  I still have a copy of Gable's movie about
gunners, which was filmed in *colour*, would you believe.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Jun 1994 13:52:14 -0400
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <sparks@ALPHA.CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: Jimmy Stewart

Regarding the thread on Jimmy Stewart's war record....

According to Roger Freeman's "The Mighty Eighth", Stewart was
the Group Executive Officer of the 453rd BG from March 1944.
The 453rd was stationed at Old Buckenham, England, flying their
first mission on 5 Feb 1944.  The group was originally equipped
with the B-24H, progressing to the B-24J, L, and M models.

Dennis E. Sparks
sparks@alpha.caer.uky.edu
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Jun 1994 14:33:55 -0400
From:    Ron Babuka <wrb1@CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: INF: 50 Years Ago Today - 09-JUN-1944

>     And thirdly, Jack McKillop posted "...except the P-38 which was also
>     used as a horizontal bomber when the DROOPSNOOT method was used." Now,
>     Jack, what in the heck is a "DROOPSNOOT method"?

>From what I recall there was a version of the the P-38 in which the nose
was "hollowed" out make space for a bombadier.  I clear nose cone was
fitted with a Norden bombsite.  This P-38 would either bomb on its own or
lead other groups of P-38s laden with bombs.  When the lead DROOPSNOOT
would drop its load, so would the others - hopefully hitting the tagrets.
The fighters then would be cleared for fightersweeps.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka                                         National Warplane Museum
Cornell University                                 Geneseo, New York
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Jun 1994 13:49:00 -0500
From:    Bill Smith <bismith@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: INF: 50 Years Ago Today - 09-JUN-1944

Eglin AFB is located in Fort Walton Beach, Fla.  It also is the location
for the USAF Armament Museum.  Eglin was a test site for many USAAF and
USAF weapons systems.  I think I recall a display on the training of the
Doolittle crews at Eglin's museum.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Jun 1994 11:49:49 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: MEDIA: War Comes to America

Last night the A&E channel broadcast "Why We Fight: War Comes to America".
In the very beginning of the show, there were several scenes of school
children reciting the Plege of Allegiance to the American Flag.
Interestingly, the words "under God" were left completely out of the
otherwise full recitation of the pledge.  As in: "... one nation,
indivisible, with liberty and justice for all".  I may not have noticed it
at all, except that even after nearly 25 years, it is so deeply planted in
my mind from elementary school that the missing phrase really stuck out
like a sore thumb!

Can anyone enlighten me on this?

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA 22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Jun 1994 15:09:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: TRV: Actors and the War

 >Jimmy Stewart - Flew 25 combat missions in a B-17 earning the Distinguised
 >(that was supposed to be "Distinguished") Flying Cross and an Air Medal.
 >BTW, he stayed in the AF Reserve following the war and retired as a
 >general officer.
 >                          Doug Donnell

Stewart flew those old big slab sided B-24s.  He was a bird colonel
in the AF Reserve when he made the film STRATEGIC AIR COMMAND which
was released in 1955.  Soon after, he was promoted to a Brigadier
General in the Reserve.  (Hey, I am not saying there was any
connection between the two events!)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Jun 1994 15:14:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: INF: 50 Years Ago Today - 09-JUN-1944

 >     Secondly, Robert Hohlt mentioned a "WW2 para frac bomb" in his
 >     response. Okay, guys, what is this? I am assuming a fragmentation bomb
 >     on a parachute with a delayed fuse to allow for an air burst?

You got it!  This was almost a necessity for low level bombing so the bomb
would not blow your tail off.

 >     And thirdly, Jack McKillop posted "...except the P-38 which was also
 >     used as a horizontal bomber when the DROOPSNOOT method was used." Now,
 >     Jack, what in the heck is a "DROOPSNOOT method"?

The Droopsnoot P-38 was a cheap bomber.  They took all the guns, ammo, etc.
out of the central nacelle, cut off the nose and replaced it with a
plexiglas nose, and made a place for a bombadier with a Norden bombsight.
A flight of P-38s with bombs would then act as horizontal bombers, everyone
dropping their bombs when the Droopsnoot bombadier dropped his.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Jun 1994 15:40:06 -0400
From:    Richard Denison <rdenison@ABACUS.BATES.EDU>
Subject: Re: TRV: Actors and the War

And wasn't Robert Montgomery a naval officer in PT boats? I understand
that's why he starred in "They Were Expendable" for John Ford (in which he
got billing above John Wayne!).

It's one of my favorite WWII pictures.

--Rick Denison, Bates College (rdenison@abacus.bates.edu)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Jun 1994 14:53:00 PDT
From:    "Franklin, Robert S. TSgt 32CCS" <FRANKLIR@3RDHERD1.THIRDHERD.AF.MIL>
Subject: <No subject given>

Subscribe Skip Franklin

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Jun 1994 16:02:53 EST
From:    Aldo <HUBERT@PHYSICAL.UNCG.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: War Comes to America

Last night the A&E channel broadcast "Why We Fight: War Comes to America".
In the very beginning of the show, there were several scenes of school
children reciting the Plege of Allegiance to the American Flag.
Interestingly, the words "under God" were left completely out of the
otherwise full recitation of the pledge.  As in: "... one nation,
indivisible, with liberty and justice for all".  I may not have noticed it
at all, except that even after nearly 25 years, it is so deeply planted in
my mind from elementary school that the missing phrase really stuck out
like a sore thumb!

Can anyone enlighten me on this?

Theron,

I thought they showed the first few words and the last few,
showing just a little bit to set a tone and yank at your heart
strings (i.e. they ommited the bulk of the middle [an ellpsis it's
called when written], not just "under God".)

An intertesting series.




Aldo M. Hubert
                                           Aldo_Hubert@uncg.edu
University of North Carolina at Greensboro
800 Oakland Ave.
Greensboro NC 27412

Sic Friatur Crustum Dulce

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Jun 1994 16:12:35 -0400
From:    John Peterson <PETERSJL3522@SNYONEVA.BITNET>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: War Comes to America

>Date: Fri, 10 Jun 1994 11:49:49 -0800 (PST)
>From: "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
>
>Last night the A&E channel broadcast "Why We Fight: War Comes to America".
>In the very beginning of the show, there were several scenes of school
>children reciting the Plege of Allegiance to the American Flag.
>Interestingly, the words "under God" were left completely out of the
>otherwise full recitation of the pledge.  As in: "... one nation,
>indivisible, with liberty and justice for all".  I may not have noticed it
>at all, except that even after nearly 25 years, it is so deeply planted in
>my mind from elementary school that the missing phrase really stuck out
>like a sore thumb!
>
>Can anyone enlighten me on this?
>

The pledge was first written back in the late 1800's (c.1889?) by Frances
Bellamy of Rome NY.  The original wording was different from the modern
version, though I forget the specifics.  The "under God" wasn't there, and
I think one other phrase was not included or different, possibly "of the
U.S.A.", but once again, I'm not sure.  I know I have the article somewhere...
:-)

Cheers,
John Peterson
PETERSJL3522@snyoneva.cc.oneonta.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Jun 1994 13:26:28 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: War Comes to America

No doubt the "... under God..." part of the Pledge was excised by the
Politically Correct thought-police.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Jun 1994 13:11:43 -800
From:    Jim Curry <kidcurry@BILLINGS.LIB.MT.US>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: War Comes to America

On Fri, 10 Jun 1994, Keller, Theron P. wrote:

> Last night the A&E channel broadcast "Why We Fight: War Comes to America".
> In the very beginning of the show, there were several scenes of school
> children reciting the Plege of Allegiance to the American Flag.
> Interestingly, the words "under God" were left completely out of the
> otherwise full recitation of the pledge.  As in: "... one nation,
> indivisible, with liberty and justice for all".  I may not have noticed it
> at all, except that even after nearly 25 years, it is so deeply planted in
> my mind from elementary school that the missing phrase really stuck out
> like a sore thumb!
>
> Can anyone enlighten me on this?
>
> Theron P. Keller
> Logicon, Inc.
> Dahlgren, VA 22448 USA
> tkeller@logicon.com

The words "under god"were not added to the pledge until the mid-50s.
I distinctly remember the change in wording when I was a child,in1954
or1955

Jim Curry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Jun 1994 13:34:30 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: TRV: Actors and the War

One of the more interesting examples, was that of Lew Ayres.
He was the star of perhaps *the* anti-war war-movies - ALL QUIET ON THE
WESTERN FRONT.  Filmed around 1930.
        When the US entered WW2, Lew Ayres registered as a Conscientous
Objector. However, he demonstrated his sincerity, and honour, by volunteering
to serve as a medical corpsman in the United States Navy. Ayres was in
combat several times, during Marine landings in the Pacific, and was repeatedly
under enemy fire whilst tending wounded men.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Jun 1994 13:46:41 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: TRV: Actors and the War

David Niven had a particularly good war.
He was already a Hollywood star when he voluntarily returned to England
in Deecmebre 1939.  First, he rejoined his Scottish regiment, then reluctantly
obeyed orders to supervise training movies. Soon, he insisted in transferring
to the Commandos.  Later, he joined a very secret combat outfit -- PHANTOM.
His unit's job in Normandy and afterwards was to patrol the front line for
battle intelligence and keep Gen. Montgomery's forward HQ informed hourly
about conditions right up on the "sharp end".

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Jun 1994 13:57:22 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: TRV: Actors and the War

John...
        That moviestar naval officer you recall as probably Douglad Fairbanks
Jr., who served in the USN, mainly with MTBs in the Mediterranian.
        Leslie Howard was not a serviceman, of course. He was killed when a
paggenger aboard a civilian airliner that was shot down by the Germans over
the Bay of Biscay.
        Incidentally, Errol Flynn certainly was not a serviceman. Too busy
with nymphets, at the time.  :-)  That didn't stop him appearing in all those
war action movies. The last one he appeared in was called OBJECTIVE BURMA,
which portrayed how a single platoon of American soldiers liberated Burma.
As it happened, the movie opened in London in mid-1945, when a lot of
British IV Army soldiers were returning after three years' nonstop fighting in Burma. One vet expressed his opinion of Errol and his movie by throwing a
live grenade at the moviehouse screen.  Now *that* was a film critic!

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Jun 1994 15:47:31 -0500
From:    muckb1@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: Re: TRV: Actors and the War

Another American Actor who served during WWII was Robert "The Music Man"
Preston.  Mr. Preston served with the 9th Army Air Force in England and
informed the bomber pilots of their missions.

C.K. Bryant
*******************************************************************
"The Riskier the road, the greater the profit."    / C.K. Bryant
        The 62nd Rule of Acquisition               / W.I.U. English
*******************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Jun 1994 17:12:27 -0400
From:    David Rising <drising@IO.ORG>
Subject: Re: GEN: D-DAY AND A FEW DAYS THAT FOLLOWED

On Fri, 10 Jun 1994, John Ausland wrote:

>   When I drove into Ste. Mere Eglise in my jeep, I stopped briefly
> in front of the church and had a talk with Frank Capa.  (I knew it was he,
> because he had his name painted on the front of his jeep.)

Great story John! Keep them coming. Just one question, however. In the
above sentence you mention "Frank Capa". You do mean Robert Capa the
photographer don't you and not Frank Capra the filmmaker? It sounds that
way from the next few sentences. Just wondering,
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Jun 1994 17:13:28 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>
Subject: Re: TRV: Actors and the War

I'm amazed that nobody has mentioned the most celebrated movie celebrity
of them all:

According to Tuesday's *Wall St Journal*, this was Ronald Reagan's
military record:

He enlisted (that's the word WSJ used) as a reserve officer in 1935(!).
(Perhaps they meant he graduated from ROTC?) In Nov 1941 he was called up
but found unfit for overseas duty by reason of myopia, with vision of
6/200. Called up again Apr 1942 and accepted for limited service. Served
from then to end of war in 1st Motion Picture Unit.

(I had a "Zero recognition" training film starring Ron Reagan. It is now
in the hands of LTC Donnell of this List and I hope he enjoys it as much
as I did.)

            - Dan      <dan.ford@unh.edu>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Jun 1994 16:20:59 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ok so its B 25s

> Just everyone now knows how embarrassed I am.  I will apologize for replying
> to messages before I've had coffee or breakfast or check sanity.  Elgin AFB
> is what I was thinking about and I know as well as anyone its 25s not 29s.
> I grateful that I only received 2 funny flamers from folks.  Lets not let
> the summer months deter usfrom much discussion on our chosen topic.

You know we're just setting you up ... Getting that complacency back into

Mooahahha... :-)

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Jun 1994 15:44:12 -0400
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <sparks@ALPHA.CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: Droopsnoots and other ugly P-38s

As usual, my references are at home, so I'm doing this from
memory.  Forgive the occasional transgression....

The P-38 earned an excellent reputation in the Pacific theater,
but had tough going as an escort fighter over Europe.  Asked to
operate at a higher altitude, the bitter cold played hell with
engines and superchargers of the earlier model P-38F/G/H.  The
four P-38 groups of the 8th AF transitioned to P-51s as they
became available in the autumn of 1944.  The late model P-38J/L,
which addressed the cold weather problems of the earlier models,
came too late for the 8th AF.  The P-38 was left looking for a
role to play.

The aircraft continued to see use with the 9th AF, who used it more
often than not in the ground attack role.  It proved to be an
excellent dive bomber.  It was so sleek that novice pilots were
warned not to begin a dive bombing attack from under 12,000 feet or
so, as they wouldn't have time to pull out of their dive.

The F-5 was produced by replacing the P-38's nose-mounted m/g and
cannon with cameras.  Low-flying F-5s took hundreds of photos in
advance of D-Day of the obstacles on the beaches at Normandy.

Before giving up on the P-38, the 8th AF experimented with replacing
the armament with a bombardier and bombsight.  Plexiglass-nosed "droop
snoot" P-38s were used to lead groups of regular single seat P-38s
(each carrying a couple of 1,000 lb. bombs) as horizontal bombers,
with the entire formation of aircraft dropping their bombs in unison.
This gave rise to an interesting camoflage variation.  In April 1944,
many camoflaged P-38s had the paint stripped from the nose, and the bare
aluminum polished.  A white stripe was added aft of the polished nose to
complete the illusion.  The intent was to make all of the aircraft
resemble the droop snoot aircraft, thus providing their unarmed brother
with extra protection.

In my opinion, the 2nd ugliest perversion foisted off on the P-38 was
the addition of a radar set and operator to the nose.  The intent was
the same as the droop snoot, to lead formations of P-38s as bombers,
but with the capability of bombing through clouds or smoke.  The operator
sat directly behind the radar dish in an oversized nose.  It was not
a job I would have envied, as it looked terribly cramped and difficult
to vacate in an emergency.  This aircraft should not to be confused with
the later P-38M two-seat night fighter, which placed an AI radar operator
behind the pilot, giving the cockpit an odd, humped appearance.

The ugliest P-38 had to have been the experimental version with the
bent booms.  I believe that the intent was to raise the horizontal
tailplane.  An altogether unattractive modification indeed, it looked
like a Lightning that had been pranged, bending both booms upward.

Of course, you can then start talking about the XP-58 Chain Lightning,
where the once graceful lines of the P-38 were almost completely
obliterated.  But that, as they say, is another story....

Dennis E. Sparks
sparks@alpha.uky.edu
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 10 Jun 1994 17:29:31 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: War Comes to America

On Fri, 10 Jun 1994, Keller, Theron P. wrote:
> Last night the A&E channel broadcast "Why We Fight: War Comes to America".
> In the very beginning of the show, there were several scenes of school
> children reciting the Plege of Allegiance to the American Flag.
> Interestingly, the words "under God" were left completely out of the
> otherwise full recitation of the pledge.  As in: "... one nation,
> indivisible, with liberty and justice for all".  I may not have noticed it
> at all, except that even after nearly 25 years, it is so deeply planted in
> my mind from elementary school that the missing phrase really stuck out
> like a sore thumb!

I was in grammar school in the 1940s. There was no "under God" in the
Pledge, which we recited every morning, hands on heart. I think it was
added in the 1950s or 1960s as a precaution against what used to be
called "Godless Communism."

(If you'll pardon a personal recollection: We also said the Lord's
Prayer, and of course we used the Protestant version. Each student led
the prayer in turn. When my turn came, as a Catholic I omitted the last
phrase: "For Thine is the the power" etc. Wow! Was everyone startled,
except the one