Subject: WWII-L Digest - 21 Jul 1994 to 22 Jul 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 23 Jul 1994 00:01:24 -0400

There are 29 messages totalling 1467 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. ARC: byrd Archives (2)
  2. [INF] USAAF 22-24 JUL 44
  3. MUSTANGS
  4. A-bomb, was: Re: PC at the Smithsonian (2)
  5. 50 Years Ago - 22-JUL-1944
  6. Invasion...USA
  7. 50TH: JULY 20 PLOT
  8. Invading America, (was PC at Smithsonian)
  9. Radium Nasal Treatments (2)
 10. 50 Years Ago Today - 23-JUL-1944
 11. Japan's desire of 'The Bomb' (2)
 12. Smithsonian and A Bomb (3)
 13. Nisei and the Draft (2)
 14. (COPY)      Swing Music during Nazi control of Germany
 15. Danger to Continental US
 16. Moe Berg, Baseball Player
 17. USofA invaded / losing.
 18. USofA losing not entering WWII (2)
 19. Invasion USA
 20. USAtom
 21. Proof? (R.Hohlt, L. Coatney)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Jul 1994 00:01:57 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: ARC: byrd Archives

Once again I'm reminded that I give insufficient details ;-).

"byrd" is an ftp site dedicated to historical documents and files.  The
collection is massive and grows constantly. To access byrd via ftp you need
to know:

site name:
byrd.mu.wvnet.edu

directory:
/pub/history

>From there you can explore. Many of the regular contributors' items are
stored there, along with the logfiles for WWII-L (from mid-'92 to date).

Byrd in accessible via gopher under "History Network", and is mirrored
at sunsite.unc.edu (which had, I think, WWW access, but check with them
to make sure.

I'll append a file explaining the basics of ftp'ing, but if you run into
trouble, check with your service provider since configurations vary
too much for me to be of any help beyond what I'm posting.

Negotiations continue to have the whole byrd site put on CD-ROM, and as
soon as some copyright questions are answered I'll have more info.

servabo fidem,
Larry J

[email-masked]; Co-Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU (Historical docs)
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

From: [email-masked] (CBIP Moderator)
Subject: v19inf05: ftp.man, Beginner's Guide to FTP V1.7 (part 01/01)
Originator: [email-masked]
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 14:17:38 GMT

[Date of Last Change: 10-Apr-92 Release 1.7]

                        A BEGINNER'S GUIDE TO FTP

Copyright (c) 1991 by Brian O'Neill. Permission to copy this file freely is
given, so long as the file remains unmodified.

    FTP stands for File Transfer Protocol.  It allows a person to transfer
files between two systems, generally connect over local area networks or
wide area networks, such as the Internet.

    If your hosts system has FTP and is connected to the Internet, you
can access very large amounts of archives available on a number of
systems, such as Simtel20 or ftp.uu.net.  This is a simplified use
manual, and will use two examples, one a TOPS-20 system
(wsmr-simtel20.army.mil, which has a large base if PD/Shareware MSDOS
software), and one Unix system (ftp.uu.net, where archives of the
comp.sources newsgroups are kept).

    The simplest way to initiate FTP would be to give the command 'ftp
<system-name>', where <system-name> is the remote system you are
connecting to, either a name (wsmr-simtel20.army.mil, if you have an
entry in /etc/hosts or are accessing a Domain Name Server, such as bind) or
the InterNet address (192.88.110.20, for Simtel20).  After a short wait, you
will be prompted for your username.  If you do not have an account on the
remote system, some systems allow you to use 'anonymous'.  This gives you a
restricted access path, allowing you to access certain files only.

    You would then be prompted for a password. If you are using your own
account, give your password. If you are using 'anonymous', the system may
ask you to send your real identity as the password.  What you type doesn't
matter, but it is suggested to give your mail address.  Other systems
need a password of 'guest', or something similar.

    After that, you should receive the FTP prompt (usually ftp>), and
now have access.  You can get a directory of files be giving a 'dir'
command, or if the remote system is Unix-based, 'ls -l' will give the
familiar output.  On Simtel20, there is a file available in the
default anonymous ftp directory that explains what Simtel20 is, and
where files are located.  The name is 'SIMTEL-ARCHIVES.INFO.nn, where
".nn" is a file generation number.  You don't need to specify the file
generation number when requesting the file.  In fact, it's better not
to because you will always get the latest generation that way.

    Unix systems will all have the familiar directory structure, and
moving around is done with the familiar 'cd' or 'cwd' command.
TOPS-20 systems have a different structure, but movement is still
accomplished with the 'cd' command.

    I will use Simtel20 as the first example. To start, give the
command 'ftp wsmr-simtel20.army.mil' from your shell prompt, or 'open
wsmr-simtel20.army,mil' from the 'ftp>' prompt.  If this host is not
in your /etc/hosts file or you do not have access to a Domain-name Server,
use '192.88.110.20' in it's place.  After a few seconds, you'll be prompted
for your username.  Type 'anonymous', and when prompted for password,
give your e-mail address (more as a courtesy than anything else), or if
you prefer, 'guest'.  You should then shortly get back the 'ftp>' prompt.
If you receive an error message stating that there are too many anonymous
logins, wait a few minutes and try again. Simtel20 has limited access,
especially during normal business hours.

    Now, say you want to see what is stored for MS-DOS programs.
Simtel20 is a DEC System-20 running the TOPS-20 operating system.  The
directory structure is 'DISK:<DIRECTORY.SUBDIRECTORY>'.  For MS-DOS
programs, the main directory is 'PD1:<MSDOS>'.  In here there is a
file called 'MSDOS.CRCLST', which is updated almost daily.  It
contains a list of all files within the MS-DOS subdirectories, along
with file size and CRC value.

    To get this list, first switch to that directory by saying 'cd
pd1:<msdos>' (TOPS-20 is not case sensitive).  If you are prompted for
another password just ignore the request.  When you get the 'ftp>'
prompt back, you can then say 'get msdos.crclst'.  This will initiate
the transfer, and after a few minutes it will be completed.  The
beauty of Unix is that while you are transfering something big, you
can put it in the background and do something else.

    Say you wanted to get ProComm Plus TD. According to the list, it is
in PD1:<MSDOS.PROCOMM>.  So, you can enter 'cd pd1:<msdos.procomm>'.
A 'dir' will show all the files in that directory.  (You may wish not
to use too many 'dir' commands, as they are sometimes fairly slow).

    Now, you want the file 'pcplustd.arc'.  First, you must tell your
host what kind of file it is.  On most Unix systems, 'binary' or 'set
type binary' or 'set type I' will work.  However, as Simtel20 runs a
different OS that has different word sizes (36 bits) you must specify
'tenex' or 'type L 8' to transfer properly.  You can then issue a 'get
pcplustd.arc' command, and after a short while, you have ProComm Plus TD.
To end your session, enter the 'bye' command.

    Unix is a little more familiar for most people with Internet access.
For example, you might wish to get sources to the ZOO version 2.01
from ftp.uu.net.  First, you give the 'ftp ftp.uu.net' command (or
ftp 137.39.1.9), giving 'anonymous' for the username, and your address
as the password.  You can then use the 'dir' or 'ls -l' commands to scan
the directories.  After some directory searching, you find it is located in
usenet/comp.sources.unix/volume17/zoo2, showing that it was posted in
comp.sources.unix, volume 17. Inside that directory, you find 10 parts,
labelled part01.Z to part10.Z. As told by the .Z suffix, these files are
compressed binary files. You must tell FTP to operate in binary mode, so
type 'binary' or 'type I' to set it. You can then do a 'get' for each file.
Now you have the original sources to ZOO 2.01.

    Different systems have different organizations for their files, and the
above example is just the way I have it set up.  By 'poking' around other
systems, you can learn how their files are set up, and zip around much
faster.  Note, however, that FTP will not allow you outside the FTP 'root'
directory, usually ~ftp on most systems.  So, poking about the entire system
is not permitted.

    You now have a basic understanding of how to use FTP to get the things
you want. I hope this has been of use. Questions and comments welcome.
Other features of FTP can be found in the manual - please check there. My
E-mail address is [email-masked].

    Messages regarding problems, complaints or suggestions for
Simtel20 should be addressed to [email-masked]'.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Jul 1994 07:05:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 22-24 JUL 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
22 - 24 JULY 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  Beaufighter, Bristol
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  L-4, Piper Cub/Grasshopper
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

SATURDAY, 22 JULY 1944

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): In the Aleutian Islands, 2 B-25s flying a
negative shipping search encounter a bomber which evades contact.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 14 P-40s attack forces in the
Myitkyina area; 7 B-25s bomb the railroad at Mohnyin while 2 hit storage
sheds at Maingna.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 120+ P-40s and P-51s attack the
town area, airfield, railroad yards, and shipping at Hengyang, bomb the towns
of Chaling, Yuhsien, and Chuchou, hit river shipping, troops, trucks, and
targets of opportunity in the areas around Changsha, Kiaotow, Siangtan, and
Sinshih, and hit troop compounds and shipping at Yuhsien; 25 B-24s bomb
Changsha, causing heavy damage; and 31 P-40s and P-51s blast Tsingyun and
strafe about 40 junks to the S of town. 4 P-40s sink several large junks off
the NE French Indochina coast.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 488: 7 of 7 B-17s drop
leaflets on Bremen, Hamburg and Kiel, Germany; 1 B-17s is damaged. Escort is
provided by 27 of 34 P-51s; 2 P-51s are damaged beyond repair; 1 airman is
KIA.
  Mission 489: 7 of 7 B-17s drop leaflets in France and the Netherlands
during the night.
  44 B-24s fly CARPETBAGGER missions during the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, 1 group of A-20s and 2
groups of B-26s attack a rail bridge at Bourth and fuel dumps at Foret de
Conches and Flers; 4 groups of fighter-bombers fly armed reconnaissance and
rail cutting missions during the late evening; 1 group escorts the bombers;
fighters of the IX Tactical Air Command escort 100+ C-47s on a supply-
evacuation run to the Continent, and provide cover over the battle area; and
HQ 367th Fighter Group moves from Ibsley, England to Beuzeville.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Rumania, 76 P-38s and 58
P-51s begin the second Fifteenth Air Force shuttle missions, attacking
airfields at Zilistea and Buzau (claiming the destruction of 56 enemy
aircraft) and landing at Operation FRANTIC bases in the USSR; 458 B-17s and
B-24s (with fighter escorts) bomb an oil refinery at Ploesti and other
bombers hit alternate targets of the Verciorova marshalling yard, Orsova
railroad bridge, and Kragujevac, Yugoslavia marshalling yard.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, weather again curtails
operations; during night and day operations A-20s carry out armed
reconnaissance of the Lucca, Florence, Genoa, and Milan areas, bombing
scattered motor transport, and attack munitions factory; B-25s bomb bridges
at Ronco Scrivia and Cogoli; fighter-bombers hit roads, railroads, bridges,
gun positions, trains, and vehicles in and N of the battle area, and strafe
aircraft at Bergamo Airfield.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): P-47s from Saipan Island, using
napalm-bombs for the first time, hit Tinian and Pagan Islands. Makin Island-
based B-25s pound Ponape Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: B-24s again attack
the airfield on Yap Island. In New Guinea, B-24s, B-25s, A-20s, and an
assortment of fighter-bombers direct their main attacks against several
shipping terminals on the Vogelkop Peninsula area, sink a submarine chaser
off Morotai, bomb Saumlakki on Tanimbar Island, and hit But Airfield and
personnel areas, barge hideouts, supply and ammunition dumps, bridges and
roads at, and to the W of, Wewak; HQ 35th Fighter Group moves from Gusap to
Owi, Schouten Islands; and 19th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 22d Bombardment
Group (Heavy), moves from Nadzab to Owi, Schouten Islands with B-24s.

SUNDAY, 23 JULY 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 100+ fighter-bombers hit enemy
positions in the Myitkyina area, support ground forces at Szigahtawng, bomb
the Kamaing and Mogaung areas, blast troops and supplies at Kalang, Kyungon,
and Tinzai, and hit targets of opportunity at Peau, Namma, Sahmaw, Taungni,
and Hopin; 9 B-25s hit the Myitkyina and Naungtalaw areas while 8 bomb
Namting.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 62 P-40s attack warehouses, trucks,
and troops in the Changsha-Sinshih-Fulinpu area, bomb the airfield and river
craft at Siangtan, hit enemy-held areas of Hengyang, and strafe and bomb
troop compounds and villages N of it; 6 B-25s and 21 P-40s hit warehouses and
railroad yards in the Yellow River area; 10 P-40s hit Japanese positions on
the Salween front in support of Chinese forces; and the 449th Fighter
Squadron, 51st Fighter Group, based at Chengkung with P-38s, sends a
detachment to operate from Yunnani until Mar 45.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 490: 280 bombers and 193
fighters are dispatched to attack airfields in France; 1 bomber is lost:
  1. 78 of 82 B-17s hit Creil Airfield; 1 B-17 is lost, 1 is damaged beyond
repair and 2 damaged; 2 airmen are KIA and 1 WIA.
  2. Of 198 B-24s, 61 hit Laon/Couvron Airfield, 57 hit Laon/Athies Airfield
and 48 hit Juvincourt Airfield; 3 B-24s are damaged; 1 airman is KIA and 2
WIA.
  Escort for both groups above is provided by 177 P-38s and P-51s.
  Mission 491: 6 of 6 B-17s drop leaflets in France during the night.
  21 of 25 B-24s fly CARPETBAGGER missions during the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, 330+ A-20s and B-26s bomb
rail bridges along the Argentan-Paris and Lisieux-Bernay-Evreux railroads,
and hit fuel dumps at Foret de Conches; fighters escort bombers, attack rail
lines, enemy installations, and movements in the Argentan-Alencon-Chartres-
Evreux areas, and bomb bridges, strongpoints, and a supply dump in support of
the US First Army.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 42 B-24s bomb the Berat,
Albania oil refinery; 15 P-51s provide target cover for the bombers and
afterwards strafe roads and targets of opportunity in Yugoslavia near the
Albanian border.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, A-20s bomb and strafe
motor transport in the Po River Valley during the night of 22/23 Jul; B-25s
and B-26s hit bridges and bridge approaches in the Valley, at or near
Antoniassi, Acqui, Molare, Ferrara, Ostiglia, Borgoforte, and Cervo; fighter-
bombers, operating in small numbers, hit communication lines between the
battle area (along the Pisa-Florence line) and the Po River Valley; and the
415th Night Fighter Squadron, 64th Fighter Wing (attached to the 87th Fighter
Wing), based at Solonzara, Corsica with Beaufighters, sends a detachment to
operate from Piombino.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): On Saipan Island, P-47s hit
Tinian Island and the 48th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 41st Bombardment
Group (Medium), based on Abemama Island, Gilbert Islands, begins operating
from Saipan with B-25s. B-25s from Makin Island attack Nauru Island. B-24s
staging through Eniwetok Atoll, bomb Truk Atoll while others, flying out of
Kwajalein Atoll, hit Wotje Atoll.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: B-24s again bomb
Yap Island, hitting the town area and airfield. In New Guinea, airfields and
shipping terminals over widespread areas of the Vogelkop Peninsula and nearby
islands are pounded by B-24s, B-25s, A-20s, and fighter-bombers; But Airfield
is again the main target in NE New Guinea; communications, supplies, barges,
and troop concentrations from Wewak to Yakamul are also bombed and strafed
throughout the day; HQ 345th Bombardment Group (Medium) and 500th and 501st
Bombardment Squadrons (Medium) move from Nadzab to Biak Island with B-25s;
the 25th and 26th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadrons, 6th Photographic
Reconnaissance Group, move from Nadzab to Biak Island and Hollandia
respectively with F-5s; and the 460th Fighter Squadron, V Fighter Command,
moves from Gusap to Nadzab with A-20s.

MONDAY, 24 JULY 1944

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): In the Aleutian Islands, 2 B-25s fly a
negative shipping search.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 14 P-51s hit the Kamaing and
Mogaung areas while 28 P-40s hit Myitkyina; 8 B-25s bomb Mohnyin and
Naungtalaw.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 13 B-25s and 20 P-40s bomb railroad
facilities at Sienning; 22 P-40s pound Pailochi Airfield, destroying about 30
aircraft and causing heavy destruction in general; 9 B-25s and 20 P-40s hit
the town of Puchi, causing several fires; 46 P-40s hit river and road
traffic, enemy concentrations, and targets of opportunity at Changsha,
Sinshih, Fulinpu, Hengshan, Liling, Leivang, and Hengyang; and in the Canton
area 7 P-51s dive-bomb White Cloud Airfield and the town of Tsingvun. In
French Indochina, 3 P-40s on armed reconnaissance bomb Ben Thuy railroad
yards and strafe junks and barges in coastal areas.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 492: Heavy bombers are
scheduled to participate in a US First Army offensive (Operation COBRA) to
penetrate the German defenses W of Saint-Lo and secure Coutances; 1,586
bombers and 671 fighters are dispatched but bad weather causes the ground
forces to delay the attack until next day, and cloud conditions cause 1,102
bombers to abort. Targets hit are:
  1. Of 909 B-17s, 343 hit the Periers/St Lo area and 35 hit the Granville
railroad junction; 1 B-17 is lost and 70 damaged; 1 airman is KIA, 1 1 WIA
and 1 MIA.
  2. 109 of 677 B-24s bomb targets of opportunity including road
intersections and rail lines; 2 B-24s are lost and 74 damaged; 1 airman is
KIA, 1 WIA and 20 MIA.
  Escort for the bombers is provided by 478 P-38s, P-47s and P-51s; they
claim 1-0-1 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 1-0-1 on the ground; 3 P-38s
are lost (pilots are MIA) and 1 P-47 is damaged beyond repair and 1 P-47 is
damaged.
  143 of 169 P-51s fly a sweep over Lechfeld and Leipheim Airfields in
Germany; they claim 3-0-0 aircraft in the air and 12-0-16 on the ground; 2
P-51s are lost (pilots are MIA), 1 damaged beyond repair and 6 damaged.
  Mission 493: 7 of 7 B-17s drop leaflets in France during the night.
  6 B-24s fly CARPETBAGGER missions during the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, 11 groups of bombers
scheduled to participate in Operation COBRA have missions cancelled due to
weather; 5 groups of B-26s hit rail bridges and 5 groups of B-26s and A-20s
strike 3 fuel and ammunition dumps; fighters fly escort to the bombers, fly
area cover, bomb installations in the Laval-Nantes-Le Mans-Chartres areas,
and hit bridges and supply dumps in support of the US First Army; and HQ
370th Fighter Group arrives at Cardonville from Andover, England. In England,
HQ 394th Bombardment Group (Medium) and 584th and 585th Bombardment Squadrons
(Medium) move from Boreham to Holmsley with B-26s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  AAF, MTO: The 121st Liaison Squadron, AAF, MTO, arrives at Pomigliano,
Italy from Telergma, Algeria with L-4s and L-5s.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 200+ bombers attack targets in
France and Italy; B-17s attack tank repair and ball bearing works in Turin,
Italy; B-24s attack the harbor at Genoa, Italy, and airfields at Valence/La
Tresorerie and Les Chanoines, France; fighters hit troop concentrations at
Sjenica, Prijepolje, Pljevlja, and Andrijevica; fighters provide escort and
strafe the Prizren, Yugoslavia area.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium bombers attack
bridges at Chivasso, Peschiera del Garda, Imperia, and Ronco Scrivia, and
viaduct at Ovada; A-20s hit ammunition supplies while fighter-bombers attack
rail lines in the Po River Valley, destroying and damaging numerous railway
cars, as the US Fifth Army begins regrouping along the Arno River.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): P-47s hit Tinian Island, on
which US Marines land, and Rota Island. B-25s from Engebi Island bomb Ponape
Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: Operations in the
Caroline Islands are restricted to B-24 snooper strikes; other B-24s bomb AA
positions at Saumlakki, Tanimbar Island. In New Guinea, bad weather cancels
scheduled strikes in the Vogelkop Peninsula area; 18 A-20s and a B-25 bomb
But Airfield, P-47s hit supply areas at Sauri, and P-39s bomb and strafe
bridges and supply dumps in the Suain area; HQ 85th Fighter Wing moves from
Gusap to Hollandia; and the 499th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 345th
Bombardment Group (Medium), moves from Nadzab to Biak Island. In the Solomon
Islands, the 390th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 42d Bombardment Group
(Medium), based in the Russell Islands ceases operating from Stirling Island
with B-25s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Jul 1994 07:12:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MUSTANGS

 >> "P" is for fighters? Surely it stands for "Pursuit", which is what fighter
 >
 >No, the "pursuit" terminology went out at least by 1942, but the P
 >designation remained to the end of the war. For example, the 23rd Pursuit
 >Group was so called during the negotations that went into its
 >substitution for the AVG Flying Tigers, but was officially the 23rd
 >Fighter Group when it was organized in July 1942.

All Interceptor Commands and Pursuit Wings/Groups/Squadrons were
redesignated Fighter Commands/Wings/Groups/Squadrons on 15 May 42.
I suppose they left the P for pursuit aircraft, a leftover from
WWI, becuase of the massive job it would have taken to change all
the paper records, contracts, etc.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Jul 1994 07:05:05 -0500
From:    Michael D Wallick <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: A-bomb, was: Re: PC at the Smithsonian

On Thu, 21 Jul 1994, Louis R. Coatney wrote:

> That Japanese A-bomb committee had a meeting at Hiroshima
>   the day before the Bomb was dropped, wherein members of
>   the Japanese Army wanted to know how soon *they* could
>   get one, to use on *us*!
>
> Lou Coatney
>
Interesting.  What is your source for this information?  Thanks.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Jul 1994 05:25:07 -0700
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: 50 Years Ago - 22-JUL-1944

On 22-JUL-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The US 90th Division, which is advancing towards
     St-Germain-sur-Seves, is halted by strong German resistance.

Eastern Front - The Leningrad Front and the Karelia Front reach the 1940
     Russo-Finnish frontier. The 1st Belorussian Front takes Chelm in Poland.

Italian Front - The 10th Indian Division enters Citta di Castello. The New
     Zealand 2nd Division takes Tavernelle. The South African 6th Armoured
     Division captures the summits of Monte Domini and Monte Fili.

Marianas - On Guam, the Marines repulse several Japanese counter-attacks
     against the beachhead and advance inland for about three-quarters of a
     mile towards Mount Chachao. In the southern sector, the Marines and
     infantry reach Mount Alifan.

New Guinea - In the Aitape area, minor skirmishes take place. The American
     units near Afua, which are surrounded by the Japanese, can not free
     themselves.

The Homefront
-------------
Navy Needs More Men - Sec. of the Navy, James V. Forrestal, says 194,000 more
     enlisted men will be needed before Dec. 31 and possibly another 184,000
     by June 30, 1945 to meet the accelerated pace of the war against Japan.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  ([email-masked]/[email-masked])
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Jul 1994 08:25:14 -0500
From:    "W.C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Invasion...USA

Keep in mind that there were several 'mindsets' that were
totally blown away by the Japanese advences in the Pacific.

One of those was 'geographic isolationism' that gave the
'America First' crowd their credibility, to some extent.
They pretty much preached that we COULD stay out of the
conflicts simply by retreat into 'fortress America'.  This
was the same mindset that made a Japanese attack on Pearl
Harbor so seemingly impossible.

Before 1941, Americans felt rather secure because of the
geography.  That all ended on December 7th.  There was a
very real fear of invasion in California...(parodied quite
well by Belushi and Co. in the movie 1941).  Look at the
record early on.  There were three pieces of American territory
that were attacked, two of which were invaded with relative ease:
the Phillipines and the Aleutians.  Had luck not favored us at
Midway (and luck certainly WAS a factor in our victory there,
along with excellent calculated risk-taking), what would have
stopped the Japanese?  WE were able to build a supply infrastructure
across the Pacific once the war started going our way, who's to
say that the Japanese could not have done likewise in an easterly
direction once the US naval threat was neutralized?  Remember, we
WERE committed to a European front too, so we would have had to make some
hard decisions in that regard.

And never forget that there was Canada and Mexico which would have
been ripe for the taking.  Great staging grounds for overland attacks
on the USA.

It is fun to play 'what if'...like that old Saturday Night Live skit
which showed what happened 'if Spartacus had had an airplane'.  But
the reality of the situation is/was that the threat of an invasion
was very real in the minds of the populace, and not so far fetched
an idea had some things gone a bit differently in the early months
of the war.

Bill
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Jul 1994 16:57:00 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Subject: 50TH: JULY 20 PLOT

  Oslo, July 22, 1994
  July 20 passed us by while I was enjoying a holiday on the west coast of
Norway.  Since, however, it was an important anniversary, I am posting now the
excerpt from LETTERS HOME about it:
  BEGIN EXCERPT
  Five days before Operation Cobra, an event took place which could have
changed the course of the war and perhaps ended it sooner. Col. Count Von
Stauffenberg carried an explosive into Hitler's headquarters in east Prussia.
Tragically, the explosion did not kill Hitler but lead to the execution of Von
Stauffenberg and his co-conspirators.
  We now know a great deal about the resistance to Hitler. Although these
people showed courage, the reality is that they failed to end the Nazi regime.
The aspect of their effort which puzzles me is why they waited so long to make
an attempt on Hitler's life. This is partly explained by their efforts to work
out terms with the allies which did not require unconditional surrender. They
could not grasp the reality that there was nothing the allies could have done
to Germany which was as bad as Hitler was doing to it.
  To those on the allied side who believe that the demand for unconditional
surrender prolonged the war, what terms would they have offered which could
have assured the end of the Nazi tyranny?
  END EXCERPT
  I recall the joy with which I heard the early reports of Hitler's death and
the disappointment with which I later learned that he was not dead.
  Since writing the above excerpt, I have given further thought to this subject
and am not so sure that Hitler's death would have led to an earlier end of the
war.  Nor am I so certain that his death would have been in the Allied
interest.  This, however, is an "iffy" subject, and I am not sure it is very
useful to speculate about it.
  I noticed in the commentaries which appeared in the International Herald
Tribune on July 20 and 21 that the contributor who condemned the demand for
unconditional surrender did not set forth the surrender terms which he thought
the Allies should have offered as an alternative.
  I have yet to see anyone propose a concrete alternative to unconditional
surrender.  If anyone else has, I would be interested in knowing about it.
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Jul 1994 10:05:45 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Invading America, (was PC at Smithsonian)

To cite a specific instance, *Life* magazine in the late winter of 1942
ran a story showing four (I believe it was) routes that Germany could use
to mount an invasion of the U.S. Whether Luce seriously believed the
story, many or most readers probably did. It's been several years since I
saw the story, so I don't remember the details, but they included a
straight shot across the North Atlantic and a more carefully staged
invasion through North Africa (which the Germans did indeed occupy) and
the bulge of West Africa to the bulge of South America. Remember that
Argentina had a fascist government, was considered a developing economic
power at the time, and had (and still has) emotional ties to Germany.

            - Dan      <[email-masked]>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Jul 1994 10:09:02 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: A-bomb, was: Re: PC at the Smithsonian

> That Japanese A-bomb committee had a meeting at Hiroshima
>   the day before the Bomb was dropped, wherein members of
>   the Japanese Army wanted to know how soon *they* could
>   get one, to use on *us*!

Really? Did they get out of town before the bomb went off?

            - Dan      <[email-masked]>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Jul 1994 07:58:44 PST
From:    "Jones, Scott T." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Radium Nasal Treatments

     Bill Smith posted a piece of press work about the use of radium in
     treating nasal/cranial afflictions. Does anybody have an idea of where
     to research this topic in medical/scientific journals rather than the
     biased media? Thanks in advance for the guidance!

     Scott

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
     Scott T. Jones VMI '87b       | "BOHICA Tax-
     Dahlgren, VA 22448  USA       |  Bend Over, Here It Comes Again"
     Internet: [email-masked]  |
_____________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Jul 1994 08:04:17 -0700
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: 50 Years Ago Today - 23-JUL-1944

On 23-JUL-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - General Crerar's 1st Canadian Army becomes operational.

Eastern Front - The 3rd Baltic Front captures Pskov, which is a vital German
     strongpoint south of Lake Peipus. This was the first town within the
     Soviet borders that was captured by the Germans in 1939. Troops from the
     1st Ukraine Front enter Lublin. Field-Marshal Schorner replaces General
     Hans Friessner as overall commander of the German Army Group North.
     General Friessner made the mistake of insisting to Hitler that he be
     given authority to withdraw the German forces in the face of possible
     encirclement in the Baltic states.

Italian Front - Units of the US IV Corps enter the outskirts of Pisa. They are
     only able to occupy the areas south of the Arno.

Marianas - On Guam, the 3rd Marine Division extends its southern beachhead
     towards the direction of Point Adelup.

New Guinea - On Biak, the final mopping up of the remaining Japanese begins in
     the Ibdi area. On Numfoor, the Americans re-establish contact with the
     main body of the Japanese defenders near Inasi, on the east coast.
     Fighting continues in the Aitape beachhead area.

Burma/China - The 8th Chinese army makes good progress towards Sung Shan in
     the Salween river area.

China - Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek sends President Roosevelt a message
     confirming that he is prepared to give General Stilwell overall command
     of the Chinese forces. His condition is that the Chinese Communist army,
     before coming under command of General Stilwell, recognize the authority
     of the Nationalist government. In addition, he demands that the Chinese
     be given complete right to aid received under the Lend-Lease Act.

Naval Dispatches
----------------
US destroyer NORMAN SCOTT (DD-690) damaged by coastal defense gun, Marianas
     Islands area.

Minesweeper CHANDLER (DMS-9) damaged by fire, Marianas Islands area.

The Homefront
-------------
Nisei Called Draft-Exempt - Indictments against 26 Japanese-American internees
     in California on charges of draft evasion are dismissed in Federal Court
     in Eureka, California under a ruling that they "are in custody and are
     not free agents."

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  ([email-masked]/[email-masked])
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Jul 1994 11:12:47 EDT
From:    Kurt Luginbyhl <[email-masked]>
Subject: Radium Nasal Treatments

Scott,  If the military is and I hope they are coming clean (sort of like forme
rsovit history) a place to maybe start looking for that kind of info is the Wal
ter Reed Army Medical Center Museum.  A curator there (they have a lot of the S
mithsonian's pathology collections.  Walter Reed is also a teaching hospital.
You may also try the Medical Library there too.

H. A. Kurt Luginbyhl
Scientific Computer Specialist
National Museum of Natural History
Washington D.C. 20560

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Jul 1994 08:35:06 PST
From:    "Jones, Scott T." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Japan's desire of 'The Bomb'

     I am responding to what appears to be Lou Coatney's amazement that the
     Japanese Army had a desire for using 'the Bomb' on the US. After
     lambasting Julie Jenkins for her opinion on the Pearl Harbor fright, I
     would think that you would follow your own advice of researching the
     time period/situation a little bit.

     Think about it, Lou, if an enemy nation used a weapon of mass
     destruction on the United States, do you think we would guide our
     military scientists to build a better spear? I see nothing wrong with
     the Japanese wanting to return the nuclear favor to the US instead of
     developing a bigger and better white flag. It is a sensible and, I
     think, rational reaction to their situation. I thank God that only two
     "glow bombs" were detonated with hostile intentions and no more!

     Scott

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
     Scott T. Jones                | "MY post,
     Dahlgren, VA 22448  USA       |  MY opinion."
     Internet: [email-masked]  |
_____________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Jul 1994 09:14:00 PDT
From:    Julie Jenkins <[email-masked]>
Subject: Smithsonian and A Bomb

You're all right--hysterical people will believe anthing, no matter how far-
fetched.  But mass hysteria and actual possibility are, of course, wildly di-
vergent.  All the actions you cite were on the other side of the Pacific,
some Japanese on the Aleutians does not an invasion of the US make--there's al-
ways Canada to consider.  And I think it's totally unfair to
bring in the fears of a Polish Jewish grandmother in 1942.  But an honorable
thing to specify what kind of grandmother and sort of undercut your own argu-
ment.  And California was so hysterical and racist they would do anything, but
let's not flog that defunct horse another minute.

I guess the real question is, how soon did people calm down & think for a min-
ute that the hysteria was groundless?  That battles are not the war, that Asia
is a long way from North America.  That we outmanned, out raw materialed, out
everythinged our enemies?  Did it take as "long" as Midway (still less than 6
months) or was the hysteria over much sooner.  Douglas might have started in
St. L. but he wound up in Calif. pretty quick.

And of course, when people need to be marshalled to meet a crisis, you give
them things to do like black out curtains and wardening, it's an easy way of
making people feel involved w/a war that is happening a long way away for most
of us unless we're in the services.  Knowwing someone is not the same.
(Now, I'm really going to get in trouble.  I was surprised that I got off so
easy the last time.)

As for Fermi, of course he knew that the glass was irradiated.  Everyone knew.
They knew what was supposed to happen.  The question was, would it happen the
way it was supposed to?  Psychiatrists were laid on at Los Alamos to talk peo-
ple out of suicidal depression in case Trinity was a failure.  Fermi was just
a wild and crazy guy.  Besides they'd all been going to conferences for years
with Marie Curie and they all knew that her arms were covered w/radiation burn
scars from those days over the hot stove stirring that pitch blend.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Jul 1994 09:56:52 -0700
From:    "Office TH325, Extension 3566" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Nisei and the Draft

>From:         John Davis <[email-masked]>
>Subject:      50 Years Ago Today - 23-JUL-1944
>
>The Homefront
>-------------
>Nisei Called Draft-Exempt - Indictments against 26 Japanese-American internees
>     in California on charges of draft evasion are dismissed in Federal Court
>     in Eureka, California under a ruling that they "are in custody and are
>     not free agents."
>

Not to get the concentration/intern camp debacle started again, but am I to
understand from this that we interned the Nisei and THEN wanted to
draft them?

John Riegsecker
Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
University of Puget Sound

[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Jul 1994 10:09:00 PDT
From:    Julie Jenkins <[email-masked]>
Subject: (COPY)      Swing Music during Nazi control of Germany

I'm forwarding this on.  Someone may be able to help.  She's talking about the
Disney movie called Swing Kids that came out last year.  Nazis didn't like
swing or jazz, because the performers were either wrong race or wrong religion.
By the time of the Dorseys, they'd written it all off because of the beat--it
was anti German.  But before the beat comes the performer.
And you can't have swing w/out jazz, you can't have jazz w/out blacks, you cant
have swing w/out blacks and the Nazis knew it.  German swing was a contradic-
tion in terms.

Josef Skvorecky wrote a trully magnificent book--The Engineer of Human Souls--
all the WWII parts happen w/Ella Fitzgerald & Chic Webb doing "I've Gotta Guy"
in the background.  What he has to say about subversive American jazz in oc-
cupied Europe is worth reading.  He has also in another book reprinted the
Nazi dos and don'ts of legal dance music.  Simultaneously ghastly and pathetic.
-------------------------TEXT-OF-FORWARDED-MAIL--------------------------------

Date:         Fri, 22 Jul 1994 10:22:46 -0500
Reply-To:     History Discussion Forum <[email-masked]>
Sender:       History Discussion Forum <[email-masked]>
From:         "Debra K. Pitts" <[email-masked]>
Subject:      Swing Music during Nazi control of Germany
To:           Multiple recipients of list HISTORY <[email-masked]>

I would like to know if anyone has any information about a movement in the
late 1930s in Germany --evidently particularly among teenagers in Hamburg--
whose followers refused to join the Nazi youth organization and were
committed to American movies, British fashion, and swing music.

There was a movie which portrayed this group called "Swing Kids" which
was released a few years ago. It highlighted the Cafe Bismarck as a meeting
place for "swing kids" and indicated that hundreds of swing kids were
sent to perish in work camps.

I am particularly interested in finding out if anyone is familiar with any
scholarly studies about this topic or if anyone has information about record
companies changing labels for sales in Germany (for example I've heard that
Benny Goodman's records were relabeled with drummer Gene Krupa's name because
the Nazis did not identify his name with the forbidden swing music).

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,
Debra Pitts
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Jul 1994 13:32:57 EDT
From:    Richard Kaplan <[email-masked]>
Subject: Danger to Continental US

Again I have to disagree with Julie's analysis of the threat felt by citizens
as to what could have happaned here.  If we stop for a second, and don't think
like rational, educated people, then the perception of danger is no less real
even if it doesn't have a basis in reality.  I'll use an example from the Gulf
War to illustrate my point.  The one assumption I'll take for granted, is that
on the whole, the US population is better educated than it was at the outset of
WWII.  (Doesn't mean smarter :) )

I worked on a volunteer hotline for two weeks prior to the Jan. 17 initiation
of active hostilities.  In a two hour session on the phones, about 1/3 of the
questions dealt with how to avoid the draft (never mind it doesn't exist), 1/3
dealt with how to write to service people in the Gulf, and what was both good
and bad to send them, and 1/3 wanted to know how to deal with expected bomb
attacks on Pittsburgh, how to seal a room like the Israelis, who issues gas
masks, and where were our local air defense systems?

Now, putting things in perspective, the French Army, then the largest, and
assumed to be the strongest in Europe collapsed.  Why wasn't it logical to
assume that we could be invaded too.  Never mind the details of logistics; the
Axis were beating the Allies, ships were being sunk within sight of our
coastline, and US costal positions were manned.  Even if it was busy-work, what
would be the assumptions of the citizens ina and around one of those forts,
navy bases or airfields?

I don't disagree that the threat of invasion was nil, but the perception of the
possibility was real, and not limited to the uneducated, or paranoid.

                Richard "No ma'am, the Iraqi Air Force can't reach us" Kaplan
                Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Jul 1994 14:45:04 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Nisei and the Draft

John says,...
>Not to get the concentration/intern camp debacle started again, but am I to
>understand from this that we interned the Nisei and THEN wanted to
>draft them?

I share your stun. But it's true that most of them were US citizens, and
as such were on a few lists. The buracracy merely traced them down,...

Bye.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Wild, LAN MGR.  Father of 1.556           Voice:          (401) 792-2611
ACC - Lippitt - URI  American Legion Post 102. FAX:            (401) 792-5479
Kingston, RI  02881                            Bitnet:           AWild@URIACC
                                               Internet: [email-masked]

"When war is declared, Truth is the first casualty." -Arthur Ponsonby
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Jul 1994 14:20:25 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Moe Berg, Baseball Player

Yes, this IS the right list!  :-)

Following are two messages forwarded to me by a co-worker who is on a
baseball discussion list.  It may be of interest to any fans of both WWII
AND Baseball.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA 22448 USA
[email-masked]
______________________________ Forward Header __________________________________
Subject: Re: Moe Berg
Author:  "Baseball (and Lesser Sports) Discussion List"
<[email-masked]> at INTERNET-MAIL
Date:    7/22/94 10:05
From: PAT <[email-masked]>
Subject:      Re: Moe Berg

Moe Berg is one of the most remarkable people of baseball history (a history
with many remarkable people). a few stories i remember (i hope i
remember them correctly):

while playing shortstop for princeton, it was discovered that the
secondbaseman also knew latin (berg knew many languages), so they dispenced
with signs and talked in latin with each other (on the assumption that
any runner at second wouldn't know what they were saying). he was a
big star at princeton, back when college athetic stars were mostly
football players (fitzgerald doesn't write about berg, though, just
football...)

he bounced through the minors, eventually to catching and the dodgers
and the white sox. with the dodgers, he started at columbia law, and
after the trade, finished his law degree at the university of chicago. with
the sox, supposedly he made up for his horrible hitting with his
intelligent development of the pitchers (like ted lyons and red faber,
i guess).

he went to japan with the big all-star team in 1934, made the welcoming
speech at the airport and addressed the japanese legislature (all in
japanese, of course), and took lots of pictures of tokyo which were later
used in the planning of the WWII bombing runs on the city.

after retiring, he worked for (wild) bill donovan's group which later
became the OSS (which later became the CIA), and his main mission was to
help find out how far german nuclear scientists had progressed in their
building of the bomb (he knew german as well as being well versed in the
recent developments of atomic physics).

the great ancedote often told is that, while doing this spy work, he
met albert einstein who commented something like, berg is really smart,
or i could learn more about baseball from him than he could learn math
from me, or something like that.

a few months ago, stephan jay gould wrote a review in the new york
review of books where berg is featured. a bunch of books have been
written about him. i know he appeared on _information please_ (and
did really well, i guess, i haven't seen the show), and roger
kahn's father was one of the founders of _information please_, so
maybe kahn should write a book about him (it would keep kahn from
writting those horrible books that he writes now).

pat
[email-masked]

__________________________ Forward Header__________________________________

Rick is correct about the all-star tour of Japan. It took place in 1934,
and Berg used a concealed motion picture camera to take pictures of
Japanese industrial and military facilities. Jimmy Doolittle used the film
to select targets for the famous "30 Seconds over Tokyo" raid in 1942.

Berg had even more fascinating adventures working for the OSS during the
OSS during the war. In 1943 he entered Italy and smuggled an aircraft
designer out of the country. But his most extraordinary adventure is
related in the book "Heisenberg's War" by historian Thomas Powers.
According to Powers (and confirmed by the CIA's archivist), Werner
Heisenberg, Germany's foremost physicist during the war, was lecturing in
Switzerland in 1944. Berg slipped into Switzerland and attended the
lectures armed with a concealed gun. His orders: Assassinate Heisenberg if
he (Berg) determined that Heisenberg was leading a project to develop a
German A-Bomb. After engaging Heisenberg in conversation, Berg determined
that Germany was not mounting a serious A-Bomb effort, and he decided not
to use his gun.  Imagine: A washed-up baseball catcher determining for
himself the nuclear future of nations!

One more piece of Berg trivia: He is without doubt the only lifetime ..243
hitter to give out his autograph in Sanskrit.

**********************************************************************
Jason Levine                    Internet: [email-masked]
Reference Librarian             Phone:    (312) 427-2737 x551 John Marshall
Law School        Fax:      (312) 427-8307 Chicago, IL  60604
**********************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Jul 1994 16:39:31 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ARC: byrd Archives

Thanks, Larry.  Your clarification *does* help.  :-)

How do I know if WV *does* add my thesis to Byrd?  Do they
  send an acknowledgement?  (Of course, if I *find* it in
  there, I suppose, ...  :-)  )

Lou

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Jul 1994 16:42:44 CDT
From:    Robert Hohlt <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: USofA invaded / losing.

On July 21, Julie Jenkins wrote:

> I have been reading this exchange w/interest.  Some of the answers are pretty
> predictable....

Indeed.  And your post was extremely interesting as well.  Have the responses
you have generated been predictable?

>We were fighting, in effect, a war of liberation on behalf of those
>countries and colonies that Japan had invaded.

It has been my impression that the war we fought in the Pacific was to:

1. secure the supply line to Australia.
2. Cut Japan's supply lines.
3. Obtain bases and islands close enough to Japan to enable strategic
   bombing of the Japanese mainland. With the exception of Dougout Doug's
   return to the Philippines, any liberation we the USofA did came after
   the fact.     Right?    What were the other Pacific liberation operations
   that were planned start to finish as liberations?      Anybody?

>Say, we lost, an impossibility
>since we were so overwhelmingly  superior in terms of anything it takes to
>prosecute a war

I wonder if the widows of the Navy and Marine flyers of the Brewster Buffalos
and TBD Devastators would agree with you there?

>It doesn't matter
>what the Japanese did, we could have taken the high road and informed the Jap-
>anese government--we were in contact with them--immediate, unconditional surren
>der or we drop the Bomb.

But we did just that.  We warned them, and asked them to surrender or else.
They (Japanese Military) were salivating at the prospect of sending waves of
suicidal banzai charges at us on their soil.  Add to that their Kamikazes.
Only after we showed them (with a second bomb) that we could stand off and
annihalate them at our discretion did they quit fighting.

There has been some discussion that the second bomb was unnecessary, are you
trying to say that the Hiroshima bomb was not necessary either? Just wondering.

Well Julie, I am not a historian like our Lou Coatney nor a professor
like our Dr. Moore, nor have I ever served one minute in our armed forces.
I came by my interest in WWII like a lot of the subscribers, by having parents
and relatives involved.  What is your background and interest in WWII?

Robert Hohlt, Jr.  age 37.

And I thank you for your post too.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Jul 1994 16:45:11 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Japan's desire of 'The Bomb'

I wasn't at all shocked that the Japanese militarists wanted
  the Bomb, Scott.

...And they wanted (to use) it *first*, not knowing that we
  had one "on the way."

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Jul 1994 16:50:13 CDT
From:    Robert Hohlt <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: USofA losing not entering WWII

Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]> wrote:

[stuff deleted]

....To state that the enemy (I include both Germany AND Japan) would sit tight
being content with their gains (had we lost) is ignorant of the patterns
displayed by both armies. They would simply not "keep what they have". That
is not the nature of agressors. Never has been.

No agressor nation has ever simply stopped expanding. They either implode,
or eventually meet someone to stop them. Witness Rome's attempts in England,
the Mongols, the French Empire, (and for that matter, the British). To expect
an agressor to stop being aggressive after a victory. Goes against the nature
of the beast. .....

[more stuff deleted.....]

Steven,

I agree completely.  And I would add my own speculation to that,
that they would have eventually had to wage war against each other.  The
Arrogant Imperial Japanese would have had to fight a war with the Nazi Super
race, because you can only have one king of the hill.  Also, since the Nazis
were well on their way to developing Atomic weapons... Surprise! Japan
would have been hit with A-bombs.  However instead of using A-bombs to stop a
bloody war, Hitler would have used them for extermination, and used many more
than 2.

Has anyone out there ever run a computer model or simulation of the world
where the USofA sat out WWII. No lend lease, no nuthin.  What would the
world be like today.  I wonder. I wonder when Hitlers syphilis would have
killed him?  I wonder....hmmmmm.

Thanks to you and Julie for this line of thought..

Robert Hohlt, Jr.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Jul 1994 14:42:09 -800
From:    Jim Curry <[email-masked]>
Subject: Invasion USA

There were some hostile actions against the US mainland early in the
war,all by the Japanese.  Shortly after Pearl Harbor a Japanese
sub surfaced and bombarded an oil refinery near Santa Barbara with
its deck gun.  After the Doolittle raid in 1942,the Japanese retaliated
by bombing Oregon!  One of the big Japanese I-boats launched a seaplane
which attempted to start forest fires by dropping incendiary bombs
near the town of Astoria. As a revenge raid this attack was a fizzle;
no fires started and no one in this country even knew the attack had
been made until after the war.
Later the Japanese launched balloons carrying bombs into the stratosphere
where the westward blowing jet stream could carry them across the Pacific.
They were designed to create "alarm and despondency" by dropping at
random across this country.  Some did explode--one killed a clergyman
who was the only American civilian to die from enemy action in the
continental United States during the entire war.  Other balloons were
shot down by fighter planes. This very imprecise bombing campaign was
a big waste of effort,
causing little damage and minimal effects on American morale.

Jim Curry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Jul 1994 15:45:48 -0700
From:    Jack Brown <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: USofA losing not entering WWII

> race, because you can only have one king of the hill.  Also, since the Nazis
> were well on their way to developing Atomic weapons... Surprise! Japan
> would have been hit with A-bombs.  However instead of using A-bombs to stop a

According to the book _The Making of the Atomic Bomb_ by Richard Rhodes,
Germany was NOT in the process of developing the bomb.  Due to some
calculations that came out a little differently than what we came up
with, they thought it wouldn't be practical.  German scientists WERE
working on using Uranium fission reactions as a power source.

=========================================================================
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things  | [email-masked].
I cannot change, the courage to change the things |   washington.edu
I can and the wisdom to hide the bodies of those  | [email-masked]
people I had to kill because they pissed me off.  | aka Jack Brown
=========================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Jul 1994 16:40:00 PDT
From:    Julie Jenkins <[email-masked]>
Subject: USAtom

You guys have been so polite, I'm stunned.  i thought I would be flamed for
sure.  Of course some of the answers are predictable, they come from people
who are pretty regular contributors and whose points of view are pretty well
known by now, when the discussion is more abstract and not so much Jane's
Defence Weekly of WWII (and don't get me wrong, I think the mm/diameter dis-
cussions are good too, I remember how much trouble someone got in for protes-
ting the AF Diaries.  My favorite was the blow by blow of Casino back in the
Spring, I really learned a lot.  I wish someone would do my homework for me
again and do Kursk the same way).  If anything the politesse of the discussion
has been the most surprising.  But to really grind the dust into powder, in-
dulge me:

To Richard--I agreed w/you.  I said that perception is reality to the perceiver
but, of course, actual reality is the parallel universe to perceived rea-
lity.  Perceiving something to be so, doesn't make it so, if it just isn't.
it just makes the perceiver mistaken.  We need David Hume here.
I want to know,  when did perceived and actual reality start to dovetail?
I knew what I said would come across is some sort of elitist, those in the know
wouldn't be so silly pontification, but pace my bad prose.  If you sat down
w/someone and calmly started to talk population, distance, ocean, etc. how
long would it take for them to say, of course, how silly we're being.  Someone
quoted a Life from "late 1941."  Well, after Dec. 7, it's only 4 weeks to  1942
and that's my point.  When did Life start doing "this is how we'll win" issues?
And no, I don't think it's logical to extrapolate from the Fall of France in
June 1940, that we're going to be the next domino.  When?  By Dec. 1941,
it's been a year and a half and Germany is stuck on the continent.  You will
never not get me to see those two oceans, that total population skew, the war
news that we had been reading for 2 years, the fact that Germ. was stuck in
front of Moscow, that Japan was insane to pull Pearl Harbor, that minute we're
in & she's doomed--we'd put up w/everything so far, that was the boner.   To
quote Primo Levi, "if not now, when"?

To Robert--I'm w/you about lend lease.  I knew about Britain but my "percep-
tion" of Russia was pretty much based on an old New yorker cartoon of some
Russians opening a case of Spam, until I read a novel where everybody who's
somebody flies by "Douglas" and if you're only sort of somebody, you take a
"Ford."  And this is a Russian novel by someone who was there.

I think it's interesting to watch how the subject listings change as a thread
progresses and I'm sort of surprised that USofA is such a foreign expression
to the rest of the country.  Which segues to the Atom--I think we gave the
Japanese 24 hrs notice about the bomb.  I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm
wrong, but if not, 24 hrs. seems pretty short notice, in the press of events.
Of course, I don't mean that we hang around for ever, but 48 hers? 72? would
that have been too much to ask?   We knew that the decision would come from
the Emperor and even after Hiroshima it took them more than a day to ask the 3
questions--what is it? do we have one? do we have anything that will work
against it?--and get the answers and make the decision and then inform us.

>From an amateur to the pros, thanks for bothering in such a collegial manner.
I was really filled w/angst earlier because sometimes people are so cutting,
the chills seem to emanate from the screen, it makes me freeze just to read it.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Jul 1994 19:32:59 -0500
From:    Bill Smith <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Smithsonian and A Bomb

Annnnnnnd, they're off . . . . .

On Fri, 22 Jul 1994, Julie Jenkins wrote:

> You're all right--hysterical people will believe anthing, no matter how far-
> fetched.  But mass hysteria and actual possibility are, of course, wildly di-
> vergent.

I think most previous posts would beg to differ that actual possibility
was not that divergent with hysteria.  Would any sane person try what
Hitler attempted in trying to overrun the Soviets?  So who's to say with
a few breaks its not Rommel's landing craft in South America rather than
Ike's in France.

> And California was so hysterical and racist they would do anything, but
> let's not flog that defunct horse another minute.

Looking to win friends with that line? ;^)

> I guess the real question is, how soon did people calm down & think for a min-
> ute that the hysteria was groundless? That battles are not the war, that Asia
> is a long way from North America.

Yes, but Europe isn't.  Don't be so West Coast/Pacific Rim in thinking.
Don't forget, it was a two-front war -- and while you might scoff at the
material capability of the Japanese, ask folks in the southeastern
Atlantic seaboard about the roaming German wolfpacks.

> That we outmanned, out raw materialed, out
> everythinged our enemies?  Did it take as "long" as Midway (still less than 6
> months) or was the hysteria over much sooner.

See two paragraphs below.

> Douglas might have started in St. L. but he wound up in Calif. pretty
quick.

Last time I checked the global HQ for McDonnell-Douglas is still in St.
Louis.  And I might point out, you've confused the modern merged
corporation with the one I cited.  The McDonnell Company did not take
over the Douglas Aircraft Corporation until the later's bankruptcy in
1967.  Douglas was a California company; McDonnell *was not*.

> And of course, when people need to be marshalled to meet a crisis, you give
> them things to do like black out curtains and wardening, it's an easy way of
> making people feel involved w/a war that is happening a long way away for most
> of us unless we're in the services.  Knowwing someone is not the same.
> (Now, I'm really going to get in trouble.  I was surprised that I got off so
> easy the last time.)

Referring to the above question regarding when did we come to our senses
-- well, you've touched on a small sliver of that above.  After a point,
it obviously is in the interest of the government to promote a certain
amount of busy work -- ie scrap drives -- to keep the home folks amused.
If you really want to get in trouble, suggest a conspiracy to keep the
home front scared that attack is emminent ;-).

> Fermi was just a wild and crazy guy.

No, Steve Martin was a wild and crazy guy.

> Besides they'd all been going to conferences for years
> with Marie Curie and they all knew that her arms were covered w/radiation burn
> scars from those days over the hot stove stirring that pitch blend.

Obviously, the guys doing the radium work up the noses of pilots
and submariners missed the conferences.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 Jul 1994 22:31:16 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Smithsonian and A Bomb

Herrrrrre they come 'round the turn,...

The nomenclature speaks for itself; it was a World War where resources are
part of the ante. What person aside from a destructive one (Hitler & ass-
ociates) would not be apprehensive on that concern?

Look into Hilter's eyes next time you see him on a telecast; you'll see a
hard nosed, calloused by betrail, prison depressed, depression recessed
finatic who makes Zirinovski look foolish. Like a hardened soldier, he is
gaining to look into the eyes of the mass and foresake his own weakness;
Indeed his denial of it was his mania and his downfall. (Many block intro-
spection as a weakness) And the rest were along for a ride.

Tojo had the signature of a million "samurai" in back of him, and resources
in sight. The Industrial engine he thought he might build might have been an
overshoot,... but his plan at Pearl was supposed to include the carriers.
(Man, would we have hated that senario.)

The fear was real. The threat was real. The stage was there. Our players
could only warn of the bad floor "over there". We could have lost that
war easily. If Japan had simply stayed away from belligerance, the world
would now be saying something like, "Heil Koch".

bye.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Wild, LAN MGR.  Father of 1.556           Voice:          (401) 792-2611
ACC - Lippitt - URI  American Legion Post 102. FAX:            (401) 792-5479
Kingston, RI  02881                            Bitnet:           AWild@URIACC
                                               Internet: [email-masked]

"When war is declared, Truth is the first casualty." -Arthur Ponsonby
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 23 Jul 1994 00:29:48 -0230
From:    OLAF <[email-masked]>
Subject: Proof? (R.Hohlt, L. Coatney)

I've been following some of these threads for a while, generally with
interest, and picking up lots of information. However, I'm always
more comfortable when assertions and claims about historical events
are supported by evidence. Lou Coatney tells us that the Japanese were
developing nuclear weapons as the war came to an end, and that a
group of officers was even in Hiroshima (?? why *there*?) just before
the first bomb was dropped on that city to plan how to use a Japanese-
built bomb. This is all news to me. I've often heard about alleged
German nuclear weapons programs (R.Hohlt says the Germans were "well
on their way to developing the bomb"), and I was under the impression
that the general consensus today is that the Germans were AT BEST
exploring ways of developing nuclear power, but that a weapons program
had not begun (or, if it had -- and I'll concede that the evidence is
apparently not conclusive one way or the other -- it was nowehere
near to being very advanced). Now Lou tells us that the Japanese had
a program too. Would you mind telling us where you learned this? I'd
really like some corroboration: references, sources, pages, etc.

When I subscribed to this group, I did so because of the assurance that
the dialogue would be based on evidence. By and large, it has been.
But I have real misgivings about these claims about German and Japanese
nuclear weapons programs.

Olaf Janzen
Corner Brook, Nfld

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 21 Jul 1994 to 22 Jul 1994
*************************************************