Subject: WWII-L Digest - 19 Jul 1994 to 20 Jul 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 1994 00:00:52 -0400

There are 31 messages totalling 1207 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. INF:Books regarding British colonial troops in North Africa (2)
  2. 20 July 1944 - 20 July 1994
  3. MEDIA: PC at the Smithsonian cont'd (8)
  4. INF: 50 Years Ago - 20-JUL-1944
  5. Ref: Oshkosh
  6. GEN re: Enola Gay exhibit (2)
  7. Armor on Iowa Battleships (4)
  8. usaaf 20 jul 44
  9. INQ:Question (2)
 10. WW2 in schools (5)
 11. WANT: WWII PBY footage
 12. Proper Address for mail to AFB
 13. Russian capture of Berlin
 14. ARC: USS LAFFEY

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Date:    Wed, 20 Jul 1994 00:57:52 -0400
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF:Books regarding British colonial troops in North Africa

There are numerous books available about British Commonwealth forces
service during the two world wars. Certainly too numerous to list with
anything close to thooroughness.
        However, offhand, here are just a few you may enjoy:
                THE EMPIRE IS MARCHING, by Glen Martin, Widenfeld &
                        Nicholson, London/Australia, 1976
                THE CANADIANS IN THE SECOND WORLD WAR, by John Stacey,
                        Ottawa, 1960.
                REAP THE WHIRLWIND: Royal Canadian Air Force in RAF Bomber
                        Command, 1990
                A NATION FORGED IN FIRE, by J.L. Granatstein, Lester Dennis,
                        Toronto, 1989.

Certainly, the most poignant book of all about the extent of British Dominion
and Colonial participation by volunteers is:
                COURAGE REMEMBERED, by G. Kingsley Ward and Major Edwin Gibson,
                        McClelland & Stewart/HMSO, Toronto & London, 1989.
It is the story of the Comonwealth War Graves Commission, which looks after the
graves and war memorials of the one and three-quarter million men and women of
the United Kingdom and British Commonwealth countries who died in two world
+ wars(Ahem, I was researcher and editorial contributor to COURAGE REMEMBERED,
+ so can
assure you that it is a most thorough study of those of the British Commonwealth
who paid the supreme sacrifice.)
Sidney Allinson.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Jul 1994 07:27:22 EDT
From:    Chuck Weckesser <[email-masked]>
Subject: 20 July 1944 - 20 July 1994

Dear WW2 List Subscribers,

20 July 1994

Today, another significant World War II anniversarry is upon us. As most of you
know, 50 years ago today Colonel von Stauffenberg sacrificed his life - as did
Rommel - to rid Germany once and for by planting a bomb under the conference
table at Hitler's headquarters at Rastenberg, East Prussia.

I think it's an important anniversarry to silently reflect upon.

Regards,

Chuck Weckesser

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Jul 1994 08:39:53 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: PC at the Smithsonian cont'd

On Tue, 19 Jul 1994 12:52:58 -0500 Louis R. Coatney said:
>You *totally* missed it, Ken.  Obviously, Enola Gay was saved
>  because she dropped the bomb.  The question at issue is why
>  the Smithsonian is omitting the *reason* we had to use the
>  bomb--specifically:  the evil and fanaticism of the Imperial
>  Japanese.

No, *you* totally missed it, Lou:  you haven't even seen the exhibit yet,
so you don't know *what* is being presented.  And, I trust your historical
judgements are more researched & reasoned than the last sentence above.
I certainly hope no historian could so trivialize such an important event.

>It's not a matter of being "right-wing."  It's a matter of
>  presenting the tragedy in its full, objective historical
>  context.

Then I take it you do *not* agree with those shouting "Damnable PC!", since
they seem to want no context whatsoever?

>Lou Coatney,  Historian at Large  :-)

More like "on the loose", I'd say (-:

ken koester
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Jul 1994 07:41:07 -0500
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 20-JUL-1944

On 20-JUL-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - In the Caen sector, the Canadian 2nd Division captures St
     Andres-sur-Orne after some very hard fighting.

Eastern Front - The 1st Belorussian Front reaches the river Bug on a 40 mile
     wide front.

Italian Front - The 34th Division succeeds in establishing an advance post
     along Highway 67 southeast of Pisa. The French 4th Mountain Division
     reaches the line Santo Stefano-Castelfiorentino-Certaldo. The South
     African 6th Armoured Division captures Monte San Michele and Monte
     Querciabella.

Marianas - As the American fleet approaches Guam, the air and naval
     bombardment which has been almost ceaseless since July 7 is stepped up to
     an unprecedented pitch. The bombing of Tinian is only slightly less
     intensive.

German Resistance
-----------------
East Prussia - Shortly after midday a bomb explodes in Hitler's headquarters
     at Rastenburg. Hitler is badly shaken but only slightly hurt. The bomb
     was planted by Colonel Count von Stauffenberg who is acting as part of a
     wide-ranging conspiracy of senior officers. After the bomb denotes, the
     conpirators act on the assumption that Hitler is dead. Not all of the
     plan is carried out and once it is clear that Hitler is alive the plot
     falls apart. Several of the leading participants, including Stauffenberg,
     are shot in Berlin. Eventually the Nazi vengeance will encompass several
     thousand executions. The effect of the incident on Hitler is to increase
     his pathological distrust of the generals.

The Homefront
-------------
Roosevelt Renominated - President Roosevelt is renominated by the Democratic
     National Convention by a vote of 1,086 to 90.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Jul 1994 07:57:20 CDT
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Ref: Oshkosh

Anybody going to Oshkosh?  I am, and the WWIIAPS in planning to do a
mission briefing in their briefing hut (as soon as I get my butt in gear
and write the damn thing).  I'm flying up on Thursday the 28th, or early
on Friday the 29th, and coming back on Sunday.

TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Jul 1994 08:41:49 -0500
From:    "Sidney W. Kitchel" <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN re: Enola Gay exhibit

Bill Smith writes:
> Our ignoraance may be bliss.  I thought I saw a post a few weeks back that
> some small version of this future full-blown exhibit was tucked in a
> corner -- something about part of a 29 and a Japanese suicide bomb.

        Well, I talked about this some time ago. I was describing work
in progress at the Paul Garber Restoration Facility in Suitland,
Maryland. The fuselage of Enola Gay was being worked on with the goal
of bringing her back to the material condition she had in August 1945.
(It seems that she went touring after the war and some modifications
were made to her then that will be removed. However, the Garber people
were trying to be very careful about getting it right.) A few feet
away they were working on a "Baka" ("Fool"), a Japanese manned suicide
bomb.
        BTW, I made no claim that these two things will be displayed
together. The Garber people told us about the planned exhibit space at
Dulles that is to hold Enola Gay, an SR-71, and a space shuttle
(Enterprise?).

                                                        --Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel           [email-masked], [email-masked]
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Jul 1994 09:04:11 EST
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Armor on Iowa Battleships

        I was leafing through a book last night that contained brief
mention of the fact that the Iowas only had a 12.2" armor belt rather
than the 18" belt that I grew up believing they had.  I have seen the
same figures in other places as well.  I am just curious, when was
it revealed that the armor was so much lighter?  For that matter, would
or was the commanding officer informed of how much steel he really had
around him if and when he might run into the Yamato.
************************************************
Roger (Brad) Coon            "Better to have one
[email-masked]          freedom too many,
[email-masked]    than to have one
                              too few."

Politically incorrect and proud of it.
Niquimictitoc inana Bambi.
************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Jul 1994 10:05:42 -0400
From:    "Mr. Scott Hannon" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF:Books regarding British colonial troops in North Africa

Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]> writes:
>FORGOTTEN ALLIES sounds like an interesting book.
>However, one wonders *who* "forgot" the British Commonwealth troops?
>The Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders, and South African forces' ...

The book covers all the "forgotten Allies"; that is: all the above, the
Indians (both British and independent), the other Africans (Nigerians,
etc), the French/Algerians/Moroccans/Tunisians (eventually the largest
of these forgotten Allies), the Dutch, Poles, Brazilians, and undoubtedly
some others I've forgotten.

The book is by J. Lee Ready, and comes in two volumes; one on the PTO
and the other on the M/ETO. Published by McFarland in the mid 1980s
and now out of print. A companion volume called _Forgotten Axis_ was
also published around the same time. As for the Allies book, it seems
to be sourced mainly from the various national histories. It is in
chronological order and jumps around from one battle/campaign to the
next rather than present the story of each minor ally in turn.

IMO the contributions of the non-english speaking minor Allies are
largely forgotten amoung the english speaking people. Unlike the
Australians, Canadians, etc, who have vocals boosters, the others
nationalities rarily enter into the discussion.

Scott.
Scott Hannon, Wed Jul 20 1994 ([email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Jul 1994 10:23:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: usaaf 20 jul 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
THURSDAY, 20 JULY 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, a few P-40s attack targets in the
Myitkyina area. In India, the 82d Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 12th
Bombardment Group (Medium), moves from Pandaveswar to Fenny with B-25s.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In the Tungting Lake area of China, 11 B-24s
bomb the E half of Changsha, causing heavy destruction; 140+ P-40s and P-51s
attack river shipping and road traffic at several locations throughout the
region, pound supply villages S of Changsha and Sinshih, bomb a motor pool at
Tsungyang, hit the warehouse area at Siangtan, and attack troop compounds and
gun positions N of Hengyang and at Leiyang and Chaling.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 484: 1,172 bombers and 542
fighters are dispatched to hit oil and industrial targets in C Germany; 19
bombers and 8 fighters are lost:
  1. Of 417 B-17s, 107 hit Dessau, 69 hit Kothen, 56 hit Leipzig/Mockau, 45
hit the Leipzig bearing industry, 36 hit Nordhuasen Airfield, 23 hit Kolleda
Airfield, 20 hit targets of opportunity, 12 hit Bitterfeld, 12 hit Giessen
Airfield, and 12 hit Rudolstadt; they claim 11-9-7 Luftwaffe aircraft; 15
B-17s are lost and 188 damaged; 1 airman is KIA, 10 WIA and 129 MIA. Escort
is provided by 253 P-38s, P-47s and P-51s; they claim 5-0-3 Luftwaffe
aircraft in the air and 2-0-0 on the ground; 2 P-47s and 4 P-51s are lost, 1
P-51 is damaged beyond repair; 1 airman is WIA and 3 MIA.
  2. Of 295 B-17s, 155 hit Merseburg, 53 hit Lutzkendorf, 47 hit Wetzlar and
7 hit targets of opportunity; 2 B-17s are lost and 153 damaged; 2 airmen are
WIA and 21 MIA. Escort is provided by 178 P-38s, P-47s and P-51s; they claim
1-1-1 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 1-0-4 on the ground; 1 P-51 is lost
(pilot is MIA) and 1 damaged beyond repair.
  3. Of 460 B-24s, 123 hit Erfurt Nord and 11 hit Erfurt/Bindersleben
Airfields; 80 hit Schmalkalden; 72 hit Gotha; 24 hit Freiburg, 18 hit Fulda,
12 hit Idstein, 10 hit Bad Salzungen, 10 hit Wernhausen and 9 hit Homburg
marshalling yards; 21 hit Berka, 12 hit Bad Nauheim, 7 hit Koblenz, 6 hit
Boppard and 6 hit targets of opportunity; 1 B-24 is lost and 31 damaged; 2
airmen are WIA and 9 MIA. Escort is provided by 45 of 47 P-47s; they claim
6-0-3 Luftwaffe aircraft on the ground; 1 P-47s is lost (pilot is MIA).
  Mission 485: 6 of 6 B-17s drop leaflets in France during the night.
  12 B-24s fly CARPETBAGGER missions.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, weather forbids morning
operations; in the afternoon 62 A-20s and B-26s strike the Senonches fuel
dump and Chaulnes marshalling yard; fighters escort the bombers and
transports and fly armed reconnaissance against rail lines, bridges, and gun
positions S of the frontlines. The following units based in England begin
operating from Italy with C-47s:
  - 75th, 76th and 78th Troop Carrier Squadrons, 435th Troop Carrier Group,
based at Welford Pard operating from Tarquinia.
  - 79th, 80th, 81st and 82d Troop Carrier Squadrons, 436th Troop Carrier
Group, based at Membury operating from Voltone Airfield.
  - 87th, 88th and 89th Troop Carrier Squadrons, 438th Troop Carrier Group,
based at Greenham Common operating from Canino Airfield.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Around 450 B-17s and B-24s bomb
targets in Germany; B-17s attack the airfield at Memmingen; B-24s bomb the
airfield, Zeppelin works, and aircraft factory at Friedrichshafen; P-38s and
P-51s provide escort and, with the bombers, claim 19 aircraft shot down.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): The XII Air Force Training and
Replacement Command is disbanded in Algeria.
  In Italy, medium bombers continue to pound Po River Valley bridges in or
near Ostiglia, Parma, Mantua, Ferrara, and Alessandria; fighter-bombers again
hit targets N of the battle area, concentrating on rail lines and destroying
or damaging a large number of railroad cars as US Fifth Army forces push to a
point SE of Pisa.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): P-47s pound Tinian Island. B-25s
from Engebi Island bomb Ponape Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: In New Guinea,
B-24s hit the airfield and AA guns at Manokwari and AA at Moemi; B-25s hit
shipping off Sorong, in Kaiboes Bay, and off Misool Island, and bomb Kasim
Island; A-20s support Allied ground forces in the Sarmi sector; A-20s and a
B-25 bomb supply dumps at Cape Moem, Wom, and Sauri while fighter-bombers hit
targets of opportunity along the Yakamul coastal road and troops on Kairiru
Island; and the 63d Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 43d Bombardment Group
(Heavy) moves from Nadzab to Owi, Schouten Islands with B-24s. B-24s bomb the
W part of Yap Island town and in the Moluccas Islands, Namlea Airfield on
Buru Island and shipping in Kayeli Bay. B-25s hit shipping at Dili on Timor
Island.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Jul 1994 10:47:34 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INQ:Question

I have the opportunity to go the the New England Air Museum as part
of a community trip with my daughter. It will be only about a half day
trip, as there are other places on the itenary, but I've been wanting
to go there since before the tornado hit.

Does anybody have anu suggestions on what would be best to see in a
limited time?

Thanx in advance                                        Steve
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - [email-masked] |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Jul 1994 08:25:01 PDT
From:    Alan Hepburn <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WW2 in schools

John Foster wrote about teaching history:

"The schools aren't all to blame. It illustrates the problem of general
history courses in covering the time period involved with the time available.
I am doing history with the 19 year olds this semester (Australia in the 20th
Century) and WW2 gets two 1hour lectures and a 1hr tutorial,the same as
Vietnam. The tutors comments on Vietnam was "you may even know someone in your
family that had some connection".All eyes turned in my direction and I got the
impression that it was about as far back as most kids modern history
went.Before that it is probably almost ancient history.Should be interesting
when we get to it."

I have a problem with this rationalisation.  I was born in Canada and
went through grade 5 in Canada.  We were taught history that included
a lot more than just overviews of the last couple of hundred years.  When
my family moved to the United States I was amazed at how little history
the average 6th grader knew, and how much they complained about having
to learn 200 years of American history!  My response was always "Try
English history some time!".  Now I admit this was back in the late '50's
and early '60s and WWII was a lot fresher in everyone's mind, but the
only excuse for kids nowadays not knowing about it is laziness and PCness.

Parents today, and schools today, are too busy chasing the almighty dollar
to take the time to teach.  Kids are on their own to learn as much, or as
little, as they want.  Too many people are trying so hard to not offend
anybody that history is being rewritten to be more condescending to any
and all possible special interest groups.

Of course this has little to do with WWII, so I had better shut this
down before I'm taken to task.  Remember, it's up to those of us who
see the importance of history to make sure that future generations get
the facts.  And showing our interest in history is a good way to instill
that interest in our kids.  My father went through WWII as a radio operator
on a Lancaster in the RCAF, and his anecdotes got me interested in the War.
I have related those anecdotes to my kids, and included anecdotes of my
own from "my war" (Vietnam).  And since I'm always harping on the importance
of history, and showing my enjoyment of history, my kids know more about
historical events than most of their peers.  And their history stretches
farther back than 1776!

---

Alan Hepburn             |"That men do not learn very much from the lessons
National Semiconductor   | of history is the most  important of all lessons
Santa Clara, Ca          |that history has to teach."
[email-masked]     |                                 -- Aldous Huxley

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Jul 1994 11:35:49 -0400
From:    QUACK <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INQ:Question

The entire musuem,indoors and outdoors can be seen in three hours or less.
There shouldn't be a problem in the time allotted.

Ron Musco
Hamilton Standard
Windsor Locks,CT

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Jul 1994 11:48:24 EDT
From:    Chuck Weckesser <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: PC at the Smithsonian cont'd

--------------- Forwarded Message ---------------

From: Chuck Weckesser, 71233,677
To: Ken Koester, INTERNET:[email-masked]
Date: Wed, Jul 20, 1994, 11:43 AM
Subject: Re: MEDIA: PC at the Smithsonian cont'd

As I have said on another list, Hiroshima had to be bombed and what is the
difference between atomic incineration and dying through saturation bombing
(e.g. the fantastic destruction delivered upon the city of Dresden which killed
100,000 and left four times that number homeless)?

We must never forget the geo-political context in which President Truman decided
to use the atomic bomb against Hiroshima (although Tokyo and Kyoto, because of
its cultural importance, were spared). Less than three weeks before Hiroshima,
the Indianopolis was sunk by a Japanese submarine. 1,000 dammed good sailors
died, many of whom were eaten alive by sharks.

Ironically, as God would have it, the Indianapolis' last mission was the
delivery of its secret cargo - Fat Man (the bomb).

God Willing, nuclear, biological or chemical weaponry will never be used again.
In fact, I would fully support a "second" Kellog-Briand Pact to renounce the
first strike use of agressive war.

That said, it is outrageous for the Smithsonian to advance its PC agenda with a
display which makes the US Armed Forces look like ogres when it was the Japanese
who violated the Geneva Convention with such reckless abandon, much less their
treatment of civilians.

The Smithsonian ought to consider putting up a display while their at it on the
Rape of Nanking by Japanese soldiers. Make no mistake about it: the Japanese
still consider us <e.g. Americans of all color or creed> to be inferior to the
Japanese race and even in recent years prominent Japanese officials have put
their foot in their mouths saying what they really think about us.

There is a war photograph which haunts me to this day, and it it pales in
comparison with any post-blast photograph you show me of Hiroshima or Nagasaki.
It is a picture of an Australian GI, kneeling, about to be beheaded by a
Japanese officer.

I'm 27. And it worries me greatly that my generation has no idea of what really
happened during World War II. Yes, there were American excesses (for example,
the shameful internment of Japanese-Americans on the West coast of the country
while Italian and German Americans were left unmolested).

General Sherman was right: War is hell.

But it was Imperial Japan - in the name of the Emperor and the "Greater Asia
Co-Prosperity Sphere"  - which provoked and made necessary the horrors of using
atomic weaponry on innocent civilians. Let us not forget that.

'Nuff said.

Regards,

Chuck Weckesser

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Jul 1994 13:42:44 -0400
From:    Wendy Slader <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: PC at the Smithsonian cont'd

On Wed, 20 Jul 1994, Chuck Weckesser wrote:

> As I have said on another list, Hiroshima had to be bombed and what is the
> difference between atomic incineration and dying through saturation bombing
> (e.g. the fantastic destruction delivered upon the city of Dresden which killed
> 100,000 and left four times that number homeless)?

Hi Chuck--

Just my opinion here, but I believe that the difference lies in the
ramifications of using a tool that had never been used before, hence,
unleashing a power with consequences that could not be fully predicted.
Granted, dead is dead.  However, the political consequences of opening
this "Pandora's Box" were felt well into the next several decades.

> God Willing, nuclear, biological or chemical weaponry will never be used again.
> In fact, I would fully support a "second" Kellog-Briand Pact to renounce the
> first strike use of agressive war.

 Amen.  I too wish for an end to nuclear, bio. & chemical warfare.  It
would be nice if we could have a "Kellogg-Briand Pact" with a realistic
basis.  The K.B. Pact was set up at a time when the country couldn't deal
with war anymore. (Not that it is something that is easily dealt with at
ANY time!)  Myself, I believe that it was an idealist
solution backed by isolationist attitudes that really had no validity.

> The Smithsonian ought to consider putting up a display while their at it on the
> Rape of Nanking by Japanese soldiers. Make no mistake about it: the Japanese
> still consider us <e.g. Americans of all color or creed> to be inferior to the
> Japanese race and even in recent years prominent Japanese officials have put
> their foot in their mouths saying what they really think about us.
>
> There is a war photograph which haunts me to this day, and it it pales in
> comparison with any post-blast photograph you show me of Hiroshima or Nagasaki.
> It is a picture of an Australian GI, kneeling, about to be beheaded by a
> Japanese officer.

The photos of Hiroshima and Nagasaki pale in comparison because you are
not Japanese.  Agreed, the photos of our soldiers and our allies bother
me too.  But really--it's all relative.  And honestly, they ALL bother me.

> I'm 27. And it worries me greatly that my generation has no idea of what really
> happened during World War II. Yes, there were American excesses (for example,
> the shameful internment of Japanese-Americans on the West coast of the country
> while Italian and German Americans were left unmolested).

I'm 33 and I am pleased to see that there are people around my age...sort
of around my age...or I like to think so....
who are as interested in WWII history--listening, learning, asking,
crying at graves and commemorations, and studying--as I am.

Best wishes,
Wendy Slader

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Jul 1994 13:47:56 -0500
From:    "W.C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: PC at the Smithsonian cont'd

>As I have said on another list, Hiroshima had to be bombed and what is the
>difference between atomic incineration and dying through saturation bombing
>(e.g. the fantastic destruction delivered upon the city of Dresden which killed
>100,000 and left four times that number homeless)?

I thank Chuck for bringing up this point...one forgotten all too often.
When the atomic bomb was dropped, there was little general knowledge of
long-term effects of radiation.  In fact, hardly anything was known.
In the eyes of planners, it was simply a way of accomplishing with one
plane what previously took hundreds.  That's the net sum of it...what
military strategist would NOT use such a resource if it meant less
casualties to his troops?

The damage to Tokyo by the firebombing was far worse than the damage to
Hiroshima (again, leaving aside the  long term health effects of radiation
which were not in the equation then).  Yet history does not attach the
same moral baggage to the firebombing.

Again, one cannot judge a decision made previously using the yardstick
of subsequent knowledge.  It distorts and makes a mockery of historical
analysis.

Bill
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Jul 1994 13:51:35 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WW2 in schools

On Wed, 20 Jul 1994 09:13:32 +1000 John Foster said:
>    The schools aren't all to blame. It illustrates the problem of general
>history courses in covering the time period involved with the time available.
>I am doing history with the 19 year olds this semester (Australia in the 20th
>Century) and WW2 gets two 1hour lectures and a 1hr tutorial,the same as
>Vietnam.

It's rough, all right.  Even a 20th century Europe class that topped out
more or less in 1960--ie, 60 years worth of history--gave only half a
dozen lectures or so to WWII, although quite a good buildup to the '30s &
the rise of fascism.  I took this 1 quarter class to be what a survey
class should be (-:

ken koester
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Jul 1994 14:54:00 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: PC at the Smithsonian cont'd

Wendy Slader writes...

>Just my opinion here, but I believe that the difference lies in the
>ramifications of using a tool that had never been used before, hence,
>unleashing a power with consequences that could not be fully predicted.
>Granted, dead is dead.  However, the political consequences of opening
>this "Pandora's Box" were felt well into the next several decades.

Question: Just how is one supposed to anticipate what cannot be anticipated?
There are risks in anything new, where does one draw the line beyond which
risks are not politically acceptable, and which you are willing to kill your
own people for?

>The photos of Hiroshima and Nagasaki pale in comparison because you are
>not Japanese.  Agreed, the photos of our soldiers and our allies bother
>me too.  But really--it's all relative.  And honestly, they ALL bother me.

Agreed. And not because I was a wisker's breath away from the Viet Nam scenario
on a very personal scale.

>I'm 33 and I am pleased to see that there are people around my age...sort
>of around my age...or I like to think so....
>who are as interested in WWII history--listening, learning, asking,
>crying at graves and commemorations, and studying--as I am.

I'm glad you can feel the pain, can you feel the fear? The very real fear
we had back then when we had to hang black curtains in our windows, and enemy
subs were prowling our waters? My mother would tell me about her life during
WW-II as a little girl (I'm 38). There was a real chance the USA would not
survive.

I don't fault those who used every available technology to bring the war to
a speedy end. I'm grateful that we can sit in our comfort and cast aspersions
about their morality. It's a luxury many don't appreciate.

Throughout history the culture with the best weapons advances. Thank the maker
that we were able to pull it through.

Now we are free to critique and second guess. Now isn't THAT nice???

                                                                Steve
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - [email-masked] |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Jul 1994 14:08:39 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WANT: WWII PBY footage

Anyone have any footage of PBYs in WWII?

Managed to convince a local television station that the PBY is a worthy
news story and they bit.  Now I need to find some "raw footage" of PBYs
in WWII that they can intersperse with the article.  Would need to get a
copy for the permanent collection, probably.  (Also need it within a week,
just to add a bit of panic onto a normally panicked situation :-).

Just curious if someone out there just might happen to have some nice old
footage laying about...

(Preferrably PBY-6A, but since so few of those were made, any amphibious
PBY will do... Black Cat Squadron especially interesting...)

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
[email-masked]                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Jul 1994 15:38:44 -0500
From:    Ronald A Wilson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Proper Address for mail to AFB

   George,

   Best bet is to call the AFB and get the number for the HQ
   Group or Wing Commander or Base Commander.  You will be able
   to address the letter properly with the numbered unit
   designation, office symbol of the commander (usually CC or SG)
   and the street address, etc.  With proper heading, your letter
   will be professionally received and acted upon.

   Regards,

   Ron Wilson, CMSgt, USAFR
   Seattle  <[email-masked]>

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Proper Address for mail to AFB
Author:  World War II Discussion List <[email-masked]> at ~internet
Date:    7/20/94 1:30 AM

Can someone tell me the proper way to address a letter to an AFB?

Someting like

Commanding General Altus AFB OK                 ?????

Thanks...

George Bauer
U.S.A.:  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Jul 1994 15:13:58 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: PC at the Smithsonian cont'd

> > As I have said on another list, Hiroshima had to be bombed and what is the
> > difference between atomic incineration and dying through saturation bombing
> > (e.g. the fantastic destruction delivered upon the city of Dresden which kille
> d
> > 100,000 and left four times that number homeless)?
>
> Hi Chuck--
>
> Just my opinion here, but I believe that the difference lies in the
> ramifications of using a tool that had never been used before, hence,
> unleashing a power with consequences that could not be fully predicted.
> Granted, dead is dead.  However, the political consequences of opening
> this "Pandora's Box" were felt well into the next several decades.

Well, technically, most everything that has ever been (or will be) used
as a weapon is a Pandora's Box of some sort.

Chemical weapons during WWII, the airplane itself, certain types of
artillery, new types of weapons design, etc.  Even the fact that the
lead contained within bullets is now considered a fairly substantial
pollutant in some areas.

The ramifications aren't always known and in many cases you never really
can know.  Some of the questions are simple: What does napalm _really_
do in a jungle?  Agent Orange side effects, etc.  The question going on
the Twin Cities right now about government spraying of what was felt to
be a non-toxic particle (to calculate spread and dispersion of chemical
weapons on a city) but now learned to be carcinogenic.  Depleted Uranium
debates pop up all the time as well as some questions about staring into
a CRT or working with radar equipment all day.

A lot of times the side effects aren't known and in many cases, can't be
known until long after.  The real effects of radiation couldn't be learned
for many years (after all, those highly powered UV emitters were still being
sold to households proclaiming the "healthy effects of Ultraviolet Rays."

To just center the morality question on nuclear weapons is wrong.  Several
generations ago, the "super power" countries of the time wanted to ban the
long bow because of its devastating effects in battle.  Today, we are still
learning about things that were thought to be safe 40 years ago (heck, now
butter is good and margarine is bad!  Popcorn will kill you and Mexican
food will apparently preserve you when the popcorn knocks you off... :-)

Granted... Nuclear weapons are by far the most visible of the side-effect
generators, but definitely not the only ones... and they won't be the last.

The political consequences of using new technology and only learning later
what effect that has is a very common phenomenon.  Whaling, coal burning
power plants, greenhouse gasses (lets see... colder... Or is it warmer?
No...Colder, right?  Umm.. Well, arrrgh... :-)

Though I am firmly convinced that it will eventually be proven that IBM
PCs are dangerous and should be avoided at all costs.  :-)

> > I'm 27. And it worries me greatly that my generation has no idea of what reall
> y
> > happened during World War II. Yes, there were American excesses (for example,
> > the shameful internment of Japanese-Americans on the West coast of the country
> > while Italian and German Americans were left unmolested).
>
> I'm 33 and I am pleased to see that there are people around my age...sort
> of around my age...or I like to think so....
> who are as interested in WWII history--listening, learning, asking,
> crying at graves and commemorations, and studying--as I am.

31 here... :-)

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
[email-masked]                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Jul 1994 16:53:39 -0400
From:    Wendy Slader <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: PC at the Smithsonian cont'd

On Wed, 20 Jul 1994, Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs. wrote:

> Question: Just how is one supposed to anticipate what cannot be anticipated?
> There are risks in anything new, where does one draw the line beyond which
> risks are not politically acceptable, and which you are willing to kill your
> own people for?

The original question/statement was:  "Hiroshima had to be bombed and
what is the difference between atomic incineration and dying through
saturation bombing (e.g. the fantastic destruction delevered upon the
city of Dresden which killed 100,000 and left four times that number
homeless)."

IM(most Humble!)O--I answered the question. Right or wrong--my opinion.
Of course one cannot anticipate what cannot be anticipated.  Therein lies
the rub.  Sure, hindsight is 20/20.  And it worked out--and yes I'm
thankful for my freedom--and yes I'm damned lucky--and yes I'm glad
millions of American lives were saved.  Frankly, as I've stated right
along, I never had a real problem with the first bombing--it's the second
one on Nagasaki that gives me a little trouble--but that's another message.
I believe the difference was in what we DID know of the affects of
conventional bombing and what we DID NOT know about atomic bombs.  And if
indeed there is no "difference" then why not use "saturation bombing"
where you know what your dealing with--if indeed the effect--mass
quantities of dead--is the same either way?

> I'm glad you can feel the pain, can you feel the fear? The very real fear
> we had back then when we had to hang black curtains in our windows, and enemy
> subs were prowling our waters? My mother would tell me about her life during
> WW-II as a little girl (I'm 38). There was a real chance the USA would not
> survive.

My mother would tell me stories as well; of being in elementary school
and having a siren go off and having to scramble under her desk for
"cover" during the many drills they had...and painting the tops of the
headlights on the cars black so residential areas could not be determined
by enemy aircraft.  My father told me stories too--about being in France
with the 13th Airborne--and his letters from my grandmother tell me
stories too--about how she feared for the life of her six sons who were
all overseas fighting the war.  Of course I could never truly feel the
real fear.  I wasn't there.  But my family was.  Just like yours.

> I don't fault those who used every available technology to bring the war to
> a speedy end. I'm grateful that we can sit in our comfort and cast aspersions
> about their morality. It's a luxury many don't appreciate.
> Now we are free to critique and second guess. Now isn't THAT nice???

Yes, I'm thankful for the freedom that we experience today.  And I am more
than proud of my father and my uncles and ALL who served.  And you know
what I'm REALLY grateful for?  Freedom to form my own opinions and
express them.  Yeah, THAT'S nice!!

Wendy

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Jul 1994 16:54:09 -0500
From:    Bill Smith <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN re: Enola Gay exhibit

Mea culpa

On Wed, 20 Jul 1994, Sidney W. Kitchel wrote:

>         BTW, I made no claim that these two things will be displayed
> together. The Garber people told us about the planned exhibit space at
> Dulles that is to hold Enola Gay, an SR-71, and a space shuttle
> (Enterprise?).

The shuttle would be the "test dummy" Enterprise.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Jul 1994 17:02:01 -0500
From:    Bill Smith <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: PC at the Smithsonian cont'd

I use to ask as a "trick" question in American history survey coursework
on a multiple choice:
What was the most deadly single day of bombing during the Second World
War?  A) Hiroshima, B) Dresden, C) Nagasaki, D) Pearl Harbor.
You'd be surprised how many put Pearl and how few chose Dresden

But, sadly, dead IS dead and the tool is just a tool.  Doesn't matter if
its fire bombs or napalm.  Or Nuclear.

On Wed, 20 Jul 1994, Wendy Slader wrote:

> Just my opinion here, but I believe that the difference lies in the
> ramifications of using a tool that had never been used before, hence,
> unleashing a power with consequences that could not be fully predicted.
> Granted, dead is dead.  However, the political consequences of opening
> this "Pandora's Box" were felt well into the next several decades.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Jul 1994 11:23:28 -800
From:    Jim Curry <[email-masked]>
Subject: Russian capture of Berlin

Last Sunday night the Discovery Channel ran a documentary on the Russian
capture of Berlin in April 1945. I found it fascinating.  Two Soviet
commanders, Zhukov and Konev,competed to take Berlin, with the result
that unit boundaries were hopelessly confused,and Red Army troops often
found themselves fighting each other,causing heavy "friendly fire" casualties.
The Russian casualty toll in Berlin was astounding.  The documentary
(based on Russian sources) claims that 600,000 Russians were killed.
In other words,to capture one city long after the outcome of the war was
decided the Russians suffered twice the total of all American battle
deaths in all theaters in World War II!  No wonder the final death toll
of the USSR was so high.
Jim Curry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Jul 1994 16:19:33 -0700
From:    Ed Kettler <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Armor on Iowa Battleships

According to Dulin and Garske in United States Battleships in World War
II, the belt armor was 12.1" on shell plating of 0.875 inclined at 19
degrees.  The barbette armor was from 11.6 to 17.3", so thae last number
is close to the 18" value you refer to in your note.

Ed Kettler                                       [email-masked]

On Wed, 20 Jul 1994 [email-masked] wrote:

>         I was leafing through a book last night that contained brief
> mention of the fact that the Iowas only had a 12.2" armor belt rather
> than the 18" belt that I grew up believing they had.  I have seen the
> same figures in other places as well.  I am just curious, when was
> it revealed that the armor was so much lighter?  For that matter, would
> or was the commanding officer informed of how much steel he really had
> around him if and when he might run into the Yamato.
> ************************************************
> Roger (Brad) Coon            "Better to have one
> [email-masked]          freedom too many,
> [email-masked]    than to have one
>                               too few."
>
> Politically incorrect and proud of it.
> Niquimictitoc inana Bambi.
> ************************************************
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Jul 1994 16:41:03 -0700
From:    Jim Benn <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WW2 in schools

Following the discussion about teaching WWII in schools prompted me to
think about how I learned about WWII outside of schools; as a baby
boomer, part of the learning was that my dad and my friends dads were
mostly all in the war, and it was part of our background; that was unique
to a generation, and we shouldn't be too hard on others without that
background.

On a lighter note, I fondly remember many WWII comic books, Sgt. Rock
especially.  I poured over these, and actually learned a lot about
weapons and different aspects of WWII.  I remember that each issue of
Sgt. Rock had a rotating second story; one about tanks, another about a
Mustang pilot.  Althout Rock wasn't very realistic (he seemed to shoot
down about half the Luftwaffe with his Thompson) it did communicate the
basics about the war, different weapons and situations.

Anybody know if Sgt. Rock or any other WWII comic is still out there?
Maybe we need to bring back Rock to "educate" kids.

Jim Benn.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Jul 1994 18:50:14 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Armor on Iowa Battleships

I remember reading somewhere that the author felt the IOWAs'
  "fast battleship" classification was akin to "battlecruiser."

What was the belt armor on the SOUTH DAKOTAs?

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Jul 1994 19:27:09 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: ARC: USS LAFFEY

I'll put the LAFFEY on the list.  There are currently over 300 ships'
histories at byrd and we'll be adding 40-80 a week, time permitting.
The histories will be concentrating on combatants from the US Civil
War and WWII, with others added on request.  It will take a few years
to get the most important ships on byrd, but I plan to get the large
ships, subs, and "interesting" ships up first. Some, such as the U-Boats
that served under the Stars and Stripes, and our "Q-ships" will also be
early on the list.

If anyone else has a particular ship they'd like to see, send me a note
and watch byrd.  Also, if you catch a typo or other error, please let
me know as I don't always get to see the files before I upload them.

servabo fidem,
Larry J

[email-masked]; Co-Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU (Historical docs)
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Jul 1994 17:49:23 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Armor on Iowa Battleships

In reply to:
>Roger (Brad) Coon
>[email-masked]
>[email-masked]

>I was leafing through a book last night that contained brief
>mention of the fact that the Iowas only had a 12.2" armor belt rather than
>the 18" belt that I grew up believing they had.  I have seen the same
>figures in other places as well.  I am just curious, when was
>it revealed that the armor was so much lighter?  For that matter, would or
>was the commanding officer informed of how much steel he really had around
>him if and when he might run into the Yamato.

Finally, a question about which *I* have a resource!!!

>From "BATTLESHIPS. United States Battleships in World War II", Naval
Institute Press, 1976:

The armor design for the Iowa class battleships:

Amidships
Main side belt 12.1" on 0.875" (inclined 19 degrees)
Lower side belt 12.1" tapered to 1.625" (inclined 19 degrees)

Deck armor
  main     1.5"
  second   4.75" + 1.25"
  splinter 0.625"
  third    0.5" or 0.625"

Barbett armor
17.3" - 11.6" to 2nd deck
3"   2nd - 3rd deck
1.5" below 3rd deck

Turret armor
  face plates 17.0" + 2.7"
  sides  9.5"
  back plates 12.0"
  roof plates 7.25"

Secondary gun armor
  mounts 2.5"
  handling rooms 2.5"

Conning tower armor
  sides 17.5"
  roof 7.25"
  deck 4.0"
  communications tube 16.0"

An interesting table provides total weights of ship's systems:

In tons, and percentage of total
Hull structure, excluding armor  15,491   34%
Armor                            19,312   43%
Propulsion & electrical           4,797   11%
Communication & control              28  .06%
Auxiliary systems                 1,183  2.6%
Outfit & furnishings                796  1.8%
Armament                          3,549  7.9%

(I rounded the numbers a bit)

On a personal note, I took a tour of the USS Iowa in Norfolk before it's
latest attempt at retirement :-), and there is a scar on 16" turret number
2 from where it was hit by a 152mm Japanese shell during a shore
bombardment. It's a perfectly round indention about a quarter to a half
inch deep.  The tour guide told us that the crew inside the turret didn't
even know they had taken a hit!

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA 22448 USA
[email-masked]

*                     *                     *
  May your nets be filled
  And your compass true
  May the wind and the wave be your friend
  May you stand the storm
  And the hand of the Lord
  Bring you safely to harbor again
            - Billy Sprague and Jim Weber
              The Blessing (of the Fleet)
*                     *                     *

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Jul 1994 19:32:06 -0800
From:    Julian E Gomez <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WW2 in schools

>Anybody know if Sgt. Rock or any other WWII comic is still out there?
>Maybe we need to bring back Rock to "educate" kids.

Unfortunately, Sgt. Rock and the entire team were "killed" off some years
ago when DC Comics decided to revamp their product line.

"I was a precocious child and obviously destined to be a scientist."

        Dr. Julian "a tribble took it" Gomez
        Apple Computer, Inc.  408/862-1289 or 996-1010
        [email-masked]  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Jul 1994 19:43:52 -0700
From:    Jack Brown <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WW2 in schools

> mostly all in the war, and it was part of our background; that was unique
> to a generation, and we shouldn't be too hard on others without that
> background.

Almost.  :)  I came along a little late in my parents' lives.  (I'm 25.)
My father fought in WWII, Korea and Vietnam (pilot).  But, I do
understand about having the family background as an impetus to learn
about the war.

> On a lighter note, I fondly remember many WWII comic books, Sgt. Rock
> especially.  I poured over these, and actually learned a lot about

My favorite was GI Combat with the Haunted Tank stories.  It's where I
learned that you wanted to tackle a Tiger from behind...  Lot's of
memories there.

=========================================================================
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things  | [email-masked].
I cannot change, the courage to change the things |   washington.edu
I can and the wisdom to hide the bodies of those  | [email-masked]
people I had to kill because they pissed me off.  | aka Jack Brown
=========================================================================

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 19 Jul 1994 to 20 Jul 1994
*************************************************