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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 1 Jul 1994 to 2 Jul 1994
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There are 5 messages totalling 165 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. What Kimmel and Turner knew
  2. INF: USN Chronology 07-02-94
  3. INF: 50 Years Ago - 02-JUL-1944
  4. Ref: SS Jerimiah O'Brien
  5. Globe Militaria

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 2 Jul 1994 01:28:41 -0500
From:    "Sean J. Wright" <sjwright@MAILHOST.ECN.UOKNOR.EDU>
Subject: Re: What Kimmel and Turner knew

>
> I assume you are referring to "And I was There"?  (I was in my original
> post.)  That is an interesting book.  Incidently, Layton says that
> Richardson and Kimmel were at sea when Richardson learned he was going
> to be relieved.  Kimmel came aboard flagship Pennsylvania for
> preliminary conversations.
>
> The guy you feel sorry for after reading "And I was There" is Joe
> Rochefort.  His reward for correctly predicting that the Japanese were
> going to attack Midway was command of a floating dry dock in San Fransico
> bay.
>
You are correct in your assumption.  I was in the process of rereading it
when I saw the reference to Adm. Turner.  You are not kidding about
feeling sorry for Rochefort.  It makes me absolutely sick that the Redmans
were so worried about themselves rather than the country that they pulled that
crap.  It was nice to see there was a little posthumous justice in that
Rochefort's kids received his DSM in 86 from tehn President Reagan.
I need to read Prange's book again to see what he had to say about
Layton and Rochefort.

Sean

----------------------------------------------------------------------
|          Sean Wright             |  Note:  These opinions are mine |
| sjwright@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu |         and mine alone.         |
| swright@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu  |                                 |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 2 Jul 1994 05:00:16 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 07-02-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
07/02 Sun. Allied naval force (Rear Adm. W. M. Fechteler, USN) lands
           Army troops on Noemfoor Island off Netherlands New Guinea
            United States naval vessel sunk
             Motor minesweeper YMS-350, by mine, Normandy area,
              49 d. 38'N., 01 d. 35'W.
            German submarine sunk:
             U-543, by aircraft (VC-58) from escort carrier WAKE ISLAND
              (CVE-65), southeast of Azores Islands,
              25 d. 34'N., 21 d. 36'W.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 2 Jul 1994 09:46:45 -0500
From:    John Davis <JBDML@OSBM6.OSBM.STATE.NC.US>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 02-JUL-1944

On 02-JUL-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - Marshal Karl von Rundstedt asks to be relieved of the command
     of the German forces in the West and Hitler accepts.

Eastern Front - Both the 1st and 3rd Belorussian Fronts converge on Minsk. The
     rail line between Minsk and Baranovichi is cut.

Italian Front - The 133rd Regiment of the US 34th Division captures Marina.
     The 135th consolidates its bridgehead across the Cecina river. The 1st
     Armoured Divisions fails to take Casole d'Elsa and the US forces receives
     heavey losses of men and tanks. Sovicille is captured by the French
     Expeditionary Corps and continues advancing towards Siena. The South
     African 6th Armoured Division is heading towards Sinalunga from which the
     Germans have already withdrawn. The British 4th Division captures Foiano
     and continues on towards Arezzo.

Marianas - On Saipan, the 2nd Marine Division captures Garapan. The front
     advances about half a mile. The Japanese fall back and establish a new
     defensive line running from the east coast of Saipan to north of the
     Tanapag harbour.

New Guinea - The US 158th Regiment, reinforced by Australian units, lands on
     the north coast of Numfoor Island, near the Kamiri airfield. It meets no
     resistance. As the Americans advance inland, they finally meet some
     Japanese resistance. A beachhead is established about two miles wide and
     half a mide deep. Artillery units are landed and begin to shell the
     airfield.

Burma/China - Chinese forces reinforce the north flank of the Myitkyina area.
     On the Salween river front, the Chinese 116th Division advances on
     Teng-chung in spite of violent monsoon rains.

Naval Dispatches
----------------
US minesweeper YMS-350 sunk by mine, Normandy area.

German submarine U-543 sunk by aircraft (VC-58) from escort carrier WAKE
     ISLAND (CVE-65), southeast of Azores Islands.

The Homefront
-------------
Congressional Medals Awarded - The Army has announced the posthumous award of
     the Congressional Medal of Honor to Lt. Walter E. Truemper from Aurora,
     Ill. and Sgt. Archibald Mathies from Finleyville, Pa. Truemper was
     navigator and Mathies engineer of a Flying Fortress which was crippled
     during a raid on Leipzig, Germany on Feb. 20th. The pair remained with
     the pland and tried unsuccessfully to land it and save its wounded pilot.

Norman Davis Dies - Norman H. Davis, 65, chairman of the American Red Cross
     since 1938 died in Hot Springs, Va.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  jbd@osbm.state.nc.us
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 2 Jul 1994 14:10:23 -0500
From:    Jon Stevens <jstevens@DAVID.WHEATON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ref: SS Jerimiah O'Brien

On Sun, 26 Jun 1994, Tim not Timothy Scherrer wrote:

> I heard that the SS Jerimiah O'Brien was enroute to D-Day, three days
> out of San Fransisco when she had a casualty and stopped her voyage near
> Acupulco.  Has anyone else heard this?  Anybody know anymore details?
>
Tim,

I remember reading about this in a local newspaper a few weeks back.
It said something like a shaft broke or a part of the engine siezed near
Acupulco and it would not be possible to make the rest of the trip to
France.  I looked for the article but could not find it...

Jon Stevens  --  jstevens@david.wheaton.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 2 Jul 1994 14:33:36 -0500
From:    Jon Stevens <jstevens@DAVID.WHEATON.EDU>
Subject: Globe Militaria

Does Globe have an 1-800 phone number?  My info on Globe does not show a
phone number.  Could someone post this number if it exists....

Jon Stevens -- jstevens@david.wheaton.edu

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 1 Jul 1994 to 2 Jul 1994
***********************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 2 Jul 1994 to 3 Jul 1994
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Status: O

There are 5 messages totalling 207 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. INF: USN Chronology 07-03-94
  2. INF: 50 Years Ago - 03-JUL-1944
  3. MUSSOLINI DIARIES
  4. Einsatzgruppen
  5. Moscow 1994 notes available

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 3 Jul 1994 01:23:09 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 07-03-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
07/03 Mon.  German submarine sunk:
             U-154 by destroyer escort FROST (DE-144) and INCH (DE-146),
              off Madeira,
              34 d. 00'N., 19 d. 30'W.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 3 Jul 1994 13:51:17 -0500
From:    John Davis <JBDML@OSBM6.OSBM.STATE.NC.US>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 03-JUL-1944

On 03-JUL-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - A general offensive begins by the American 1st Army. The US
     VIII Corps attacks south against the German LXXXIV Corps. Three divisions
     are taking part in the attack, the 79th, 82nd Airborne and 90th. Because
     of heavy rains they make very little progress. The bad weather reduces
     air cover and makes the terrain virtually impassible. The 82nd Airborne
     makes a slight advance taking Hill 131, northeast of La Haye-du-Puits, on
     the road to Coutances. General Gunther von Kluge takes over command of
     the German troops in place of von Rundstedt.

Eastern Front - Minsk is taken by the 1st and 3rd Belorussian Fronts. Of 40
     divisions of the German Army Group Centre, 28 are encircled. Russian
     reports cite 400,000 Germans dead and 158,000 captured. Because of this
     overwelming victory the Germany Army Group North, stationed in the Baltic
     states is in danger of bing cut off. The Russian 1st Baltic Front is
     preparing a powerfull offensive against the Baltic states.

Italian Front - The US 34th Division begins to push towards Leghorn against
     strong German resistance. Troops from the US 135th Infantry advance as
     far as the Rosignano fortress. The French Expeditionary Corps takes
     Siena. In the British 8th Army sector, the 78th Division takes Cortona.

Marianas - On Saipan, the Marines capture a hill overlooking Tanapag on the
     west coast.

New Guinea - On Numfoor Island, the 158th Infantry Regiment extends its
     beachhead eastward. A battalion of the 503rd Parachute Regiment drops on
     Kamiri airfield and occupies it. Many of the parachutists are killed
     during the drop. On Biak Island, mopping up activies continue with the
     capture of the eastern caves.

Volcano Islands/Bonin Islands - Two American task forces bomb and shell
     Japanese installations in the Volcano Islands and on Chichi Jima and Haha
     Jima in the Bonin Islands.

Burma/India - On the Assam front, the 7th Indian Division captures Ukhurl.

Naval Dispatches
----------------
German submarine U-154 sunk by destroyer escort FROST (DE-144) and INCH
     (DE-146), off Madeira.

The Homefront
-------------
Year's War Costs $90 Billion - The Tresury Department reports that at the end
     of the fiscal year on June 30th, US war expenditures for the year
     amounted to $87,039,000,000 plus $2,682,000,000 by the Reconstruction
     Finance Corp. for war purposes. The government ended the year with a
     deficit of $49,595,000,000.

Disloyal Japanese To Lose Citizenship - President Roosevelt has signed a bill
     withdrawing citizenship of disloyal Japanese-Americans after the
     Attorney General's office said the legislation is needed to deal with
     them under the enemy alien statutes.

Vallee's Wife Asks For Divorce - Bette Jane Greer Vallee, wife of Navy Lt.
     Rudy Vallee, has filed suit for divorce, calling Vallee "an incurable
     bachelor".

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  jbd@osbm.state.nc.us
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 3 Jul 1994 12:59:36 CDT
From:    Joe Churman <churman@CC.UMANITOBA.CA>
Subject: Re: MUSSOLINI DIARIES

>I downloaded the NYT stories and diary excerpts for anyone who wants them
>and who doesn't mind a 174-line letter :-)

Dan,

I'll take a copy please. Thanks,

Joe

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 3 Jul 1994 20:06:10 -0400
From:    David Rising <drising@IO.ORG>
Subject: Re: Einsatzgruppen

As part of this discussion, someone asked "who was in charge of the
Einsatzgruppen?" Here goes:

Four Einsatzgruppen were established for operations in Russia:
1. Einsatzgruppe A for the baltic States. Led by SS Brigadefuhrer and
Police General Dr Walther Stahlecker, it compromised Special Commandos 1a
and 1b and Einsatzkommandos 2 and 3.

2. Einsatzgruppe B for White Russia. Led by SS Brigadefuhrer and Police
General Arthur Nebe, the head of the Criminal Police, it comprised
Special Commandos 7a and 7b and Einsatzkommandos 8 and 9 as well as
Voprkommando Moscow (from February 1942 Special Commando 7c).

3. Einsatzgruppe C for the north and central Ukrane. Led by SS
Brigadefuhrer and Police General Dr Otto Rasch, the Inspector of
Securityt Police and SD in Konigsberg, it comprised Special Commandos 4a
and 4b and Einsatzkommandos 5 and 6.

4. Einsatzgruppe D for Bessarabia, the southern Ukraine, the Crimea, and
the Caucusus. Led by Otto Ohlendorf head of Amt III (SD-Inland) of the
RSHA,; it comprised Special Commandos 10a and 10b and Einsatzkommandos
11a, 11b and 12.

Each Einsatzgruppe contained between 600 and 1,000 men and was fully
motorized. The lower ranks were made up of Gestapo, criminal police,
order police, Waffen SS and a number of specialists (for example
interpreters, communications experts etc.). Most had been hurridely
seconded from the various police departments. The leaders, however, were
carefully selected, came largely from the SD, and most had middle class
professional backgrounds and included many law graduates.

The numbers of those killed in the course of the Einsatzgruppen
operations in the Soviet Union can only be estimated. During the 'first
sweep' from June 1941 to April 1942 it has been estimated that some
700-750,000 Jews were murdered. In the second and more comprehensive
sweep during 1942-3 an estimated further 1.5 million Je
ws were murdered in the Soviet Union, making a sum total of around 2.2
million.

The above information comes from Vol 3 of _Nazism, Foreign Policy, War
and Racial Extermination_. For further reading, try _The Einsatzgruppen
Reports_.

In my research on the Einsatzgruppen, the question of cooperation between
the Wermacht and the Einsatzgruppen came up many times. There is no exact
answer, but suffice to say that sometimes the Wermacht actively helped
the Einsatzgruppen, and vice versa, but other times the Wermacht tried to
put an end to Einsatzgruppen terror.

To quote Terry, "hope this helps",

David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Jul 1994 12:20:25 +1000
From:    George PISZCZUK <phgpi@CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Moscow 1994 notes available

>I have just written anecdotes and observations about the situation in Russia
>based on a trip to Moscow during May and June. They are similar to the notes
>written and distributed last year.
>
>A copy is available to anybody who asks.  The file is 32K long.
>
>I am about to leave for Moscow again. I will be reading my mail but not this
>list. Therefore, PLEASE SEND REQUESTS TO MY MAILBOX:
>
>  efenster@igc.apc.org
>
>The daily schedule we followed during the trip can also be requested.
>
>Eric Fenster

Could you please forward a copy of these notes.

George


  -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Piszczuk                          Email: PHGPI@cc.newcastle.edu.au
  University of Newcastle                  Phone: (049) 215440
  Australia                                Fax  : (049) 216907
  -------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 2 Jul 1994 to 3 Jul 1994
***********************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 3 Jul 1994 to 4 Jul 1994
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Status: O

There are 7 messages totalling 207 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. 50TH: CELEBRATING JULY 4
  2. GEN: THANKS TO JOHN DAVIS
  3. INF: USN Chronology 07-04-94
  4. INF: 50 Years Ago - 04-JUL-1944
  5. Einsatzgruppe C (2)
  6. WEAP: Mosquito and PERSONNEL: Aircrew duties?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Jul 1994 14:00:37 +0200
From:    John Ausland <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: 50TH: CELEBRATING JULY 4

  Oslo, July 4, 1994

  The following is an excerpt from a letter I sent to my parents on July 4,
1944:

          Dear Folks, July 4, 1944, Somewhere in France

          Today, just to celebrate independence day we loaded every
          gun - as did all battalions in the army - and fired them
          simultaneously at 1200.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Jul 1994 14:13:17 +0200
From:    John Ausland <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: GEN: THANKS TO JOHN DAVIS

  Oslo, July 4.  Thanks to John Davis for going to the trouble of posting each
day his "50 years ago today."
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Jul 1994 01:31:05 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 07-04-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
07/04 Tue. Carrier-based aircraft and naval gunfire from two task groups
           (Rear Adm. J. J. Clark and Rear Adm. R. E. Davison) hit
           Japanese installations on Iwo Jima in the Volcano Islands,
and
           Chichi Jima and Haha Jima, Bonin Islands.
            United States naval vessel sunk:
             Submarine S-28, cause unknown, during training exercises
              off Hawaii Islands.
            Japanese naval vessels sunk:
             Auxiliary submarine chaser NO. 16, by carrier-based
aircraft,
              Bonin Islands area,
              27 d. 00 N., 140 50'E.
             Coastal minesweeper SARUSHIMA, by carrier-based aircraft,
              Bonin Islands area,
              27 d. 10 N., 142 d. 10'E.
             Transport NO. 103, by carrier-based aircraft, Bonin Islands
              area,
              27 d. 05'N., 142 d. 09'.
             Transport No. 130, by carrier-based aircraft, Iwo Jima
area,
              24 d. 47'N., 141 d. 20'E.
             Submarine I-10, by destroy DAVID W. TAYLOR (DD-551)
              and destroyer escort RIDDLE (DE-185), Marianas Islands
              area,
              15 d. 26'N., 147 d. 48'E.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Jul 1994 10:20:27 -0500
From:    John Davis <JBDML@OSBM6.OSBM.STATE.NC.US>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 04-JUL-1944

On 04-JUL-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The VIII Corps, US 1st Army continues its slow advance
     southwards. Further east, the VII Corps begins its offensive. In the
     British sector, the Canadian 3rd Division captures Carpiquet but can not
     capture the nearby airfield.

Eastern Front - The 1st Baltic Front attacks towards Riga with six armies and
     takes Polotsk.

Italian Front - The US 34th Division is pushing towards Rosignano. Units of
     the 361st Regiment of the 1st Armoured Division enter Casole d'Elsa. The
     British 8th Army continues its advance in the central-eastern sector. The
     XIII Corps, makes rapid progress towards Arezzo against light resistance.
     The 6th Armoured Division takes Castiglion Fiorentino.

Marianas - On Saipan, the US 27th Infantry Division reaches the Tanapag plain.
     One of its regiments reaches a seaplane base at Point Flores and along
     with a Marine regiment, wipes out a Japanese cave strongpoint.

New Guinea - On Numfoor Island, the Americans take Kornasoren airfield and the
     village of Kamiri. An additional battalion of the 503rd Parachute
     Regiment is dropped on Kamiri airport. They loose one-twelfth of their
     men due to inexperience and difficult terrain. The losses are so high, it
     is decided to not attempt anymore parachute landings. On the mainland, in
     the Wadke-Sarmi area, the US 63rd Infantry makes a little progress
     westward.

Naval Dispatches
----------------
US submarine S-28 sunk, cause unknown during training excercises off Hawaii.

Japanese minesweeper SARUSHIMA sunk, by carrier-based aircraft, Bonin Islands.

Japanese submarine I-10 sunk, by destroyer DAVID W. TAYLOR (DD-551) and
     destroyer escort RIDDLE (DE-185), Marianas Islands.

The Homefront
-------------
Negroes Barred In Georgia Vote - Negroes were prevented from voting in today's
     Georgia Democratic primary. They are refused ballots as they appear at
     the polling places.

Sante Fe Wreck - The fireman and three passengers were killed last night when
     the Sante Fe Chief, westbound, left the rails 20 miles west of Flagstaff,
     Arizona.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  jbd@osbm.state.nc.us
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Jul 1994 17:36:00 PDT
From:    "Wsiaki, Bill" <WSIAKI@BLDGEDUC.LAN1.UMANITOBA.CA>
Subject: Einsatzgruppe C

What type of rifle was used for carrying out mass executions?  Typically, how
many men would have pulled the trigger in a unit?

At an execution site, how many people could be shot in a single day?

Lastly, what happened to the Einsatzgruppen when the war ended?  Are any of
the men from these mobile death units still around today?

Bill Wsiaki

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Jul 1994 18:55:45 -0400
From:    David Rising <drising@IO.ORG>
Subject: Re: Einsatzgruppe C

On Mon, 4 Jul 1994, Wsiaki, Bill wrote:

> What type of rifle was used for carrying out mass executions?  Typically, how
> many men would have pulled the trigger in a unit?
>From what I can tell, they used regular issue rifles, pistols (mostly
officers) and machine guns. Almost everyone in the Einsatzgruppen
participated directly in the executions at one point or another.

> At an execution site, how many people could be shot in a single day?
These figures are hard to determine exactly, but I think about 1,500 in a
day was fairly common. On the other hand, I've also read figures of more
than 10,000 being killed in a single day which is almost Auschwitzian in
scale.

> Lastly, what happened to the Einsatzgruppen when the war ended?  Are any of
> the men from these mobile death units still around today?
I don't know if there are many around today, but I don't believe that too
many were arrested and executed at the end of the war. In his research
for _Ordinary Men_, Christopher Browning interviewed a number of the
members of Reserve Batallian 101 who talked about their experiences.
Reading that book would certainly give you a good impression of who these
men were. I'm only about 1/2 way though it right now (as with about a
million other books), but have also heard several discussions on it.

I'll post some more when I've got more info in front of me,
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 Jul 1994 20:27:47 EDT
From:    Robert E George <regeorge@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Subject: WEAP: Mosquito and PERSONNEL: Aircrew duties?

A couple questions that somebody might be able to answer:

       How often did RAF and USAAF bomber crews fly? That is, one mission
a week? Two per week? I am especially interested in Mosquito during
the 1942 period.

       Secondly, what did the second crewmember in a Mosquito do?
I presume it may have varied according to what particular role the
Mosquito had in a given instance (e.g., recon, fighter, bomber, et cetera).

       Any comments will be very much appreciated!

              Regards,
              Rob   George

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 3 Jul 1994 to 4 Jul 1994
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 32 messages totalling 1031 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. WEAP: Mosquito and PERSONNEL: Aircrew duties?
  2. 50TH: THE 4TH DIVISION ATTACKS SOUTH
  3. INF: USN Chronology 07-05-94
  4. [INF] USAAF 5 JUL 44
  5. INF: 50 Years Ago - 05-JUL-1944
  6. HIST: Einzatzgruppen
  7. 50TH: CELEBRATING JULY 4
  8. KB1MK de WA1KWA
  9. Politics & the Smithsonian (2)
 10. GEN: US ARMY LIBERATION OF CONCENTRATION CAMPS?
 11. Travis AFB B-29
 12. E. Front Armour
 13. Einsatzgruppe C
 14. ADMIN: Crossposting?  The culprit speaks.  :-)
 15. Trivial Nonsense (3)
 16. GEN RE: Colorization and loss of historic film (5)
 17. DC-3
 18. Thoughts
 19. HIST: More on Einsatzgruppen
 20. Trivial Nonsense & colorization (2)
 21. REF: Planned Invasdion of Japan?
 22. Invasion of Japan (was:Politics & the Smithsonian)
 23. USMC color films
 24. Signoff WWii-l

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 00:26:55 -0400
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Mosquito and PERSONNEL: Aircrew duties?

Speaking for RAF/RCAF aircrews, they flew as many nights a week as
weather allowed and targets demanded. In total, bomber crews flew
30 operations (raids), which was a full "tour of ops", after which
they were taken off bombing operations.  (That is assuming that they
actually *survived* flying 30 ops.  The odds were greatly against
survival.
Mosquito aircraft were, as you said, in a number of different
configurations -- bombers, fighters, photo-reconnaisance, etc. The
pilot had a second crew member with him -- who had the role(s) of
navigator, bomb-aimer, radio-operator, radar-operator, gun-loader...

--

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 02:20:58 +0200
From:    John Ausland <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: 50TH: THE 4TH DIVISION ATTACKS SOUTH

  Oslo, July 5, 1994

  Excerpt from Chapter 5 of LETTERS HOME: A WAR MEMOIR-

          * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
          *                                                     *
          *    AFTER CHERBOURG, THE 4TH DIVISION TURNS SOUTH    *
          *                                                     *
          * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

          After helping establish the beachhead and capture
          Cherbourg, the 4th Division moved south, where other
          divisions were running into determined German resistance
          in a countryside filled with small fields. These were
          surrounded by hedgerows, piles of dirt topped by shrubs
          and trees, which made ideal defensive positions. This
          meant the infantry had to fight its way from hedgerow to
          hedgerow, a demoralizing and costly operation.

          The need to integrate thousands of green men who were
          replacing the casualties was a further handicap. As the
          4th Division commander, Maj. Gen Raymond O. Barton,
          commented with regret, "We no longer have the division
          we brought ashore."

          There were also a number of command changes. General
          Barton sent his Chief of Staff, Col. James S. Rodwell, to
          succeed Col. Van Fleet, who left the division to begin his
          climb to four stars. The rumor was that General Barton
          wanted to give Col. Rodwell combat command experience,
          so he could qualify for a star.

          Though the fighting was a grim business, there was a
          tragicomic moment. A German appeared one day bearing
          a white flag. He told our interpreter, Lt. Boatlander, that
          his unit wanted to surrender. His commander, however,
          wanted an American officer to come to his company
          command post. They would go together to the battalion
          command post and see if they could persuade the whole
          battalion to surrender. Suddenly Col. Rodwell appeared
          and wanted to know what was holding up the attack.
          When told, he just snorted and said, "Can't you see. They
          are just stalling for time. Get on with the attack." When
          the interpreter suggested he would like at least to try,
          Col. Rodwell said, "Son, you are naive. If you go over
          there, they will move you from one headquarters to
          another, and first thing you know you will be in Berlin.
          Then what will you do?" Boatlander looked as his feet
          and replied, "Well, sir, maybe I could end the war."

          That ended the discussion. As the German returned to
          his lines, Col. Rodwell commented to us, "You men might
          as well face it. The Germans are better soldiers than you
          are." On this encouraging note, the fighting resumed.

          A letter I wrote home about this time reflected optimistic
          weariness.

          Dear Dad, Somewhere in France, July 5, 1944

          Again I say - welcome back to the United States, a grand
          place to be. Really regret not being able to be there to
          meet you. However, it seems that, as always, the
          Germans are hard to convince they are licked, so I'll have
          to stay around here a bit longer.

          We've sweated out twenty-one days of continuous
          engagement from the beach to Cherbourg and came
          through in pretty good order, at least better than Jerry
          enjoyed. It was pretty tough going at times, but that is to
          be expected.

          There's no reason not to expect things to go well, and
          with continuous efforts on all three fronts, I'm almost
          tempted at times to be optimistic.

          Love, John

          P.S. Less you be getting grey haired about my progress,
          I'm in a captain's job as liaison officer to an infantry
          battalion.

  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 01:16:16 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 07-05-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
07/05 Wed.  German submarines sunk:
             U-133, by destroyer escorts THOMAS (DD-102) and BAKER
              (DE-190), North Atlantic area,
              42 d. 16'N., 59 d. 49'W.
             U-586, by aircraft, Toulon, France.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 07:12:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 5 JUL 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
WEDNESDAY, 5 JULY 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  F-6, North American Mustang
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma 20+ P-40s and A-36s continue
support in the Myitkyina sector while 12 other aircraft fly armed
reconnaissance in the same area; 20+ other P-40s, P-51s, and A-36s hit
targets of opportunity in the areas around Hopin, Namma, and Naungtalaw; the
town area of Naungtalaw also is pounded by 11 B-25s.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 136 fighter-bombers and 64 B-25s
attack targets throughout the Tungting Lake area; targets include river
shipping, warehouses, troops, artillery, trucks, and other targets of
opportunity at Liling, Lukou, Pingkiang, Yungfengshih, Siangyin, and Chuting;
Hengyang Airfield is bombed, and supplies are dropped to Chinese forces in
the vicinity; in the Salween area 40 transports drop supplies to Chinese
forces on the battleline, and 4 fighter-bombers pound the town and vicinity
of Tengchung; 22 B-24s bomb a supply and ammunition depot at Canton; 6 B-25s
attack airfields in the area; and 5 B-24s lay mines in Shanghai harbor.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 453: 371 bombers and 445
fighters are dispatched to attack 3 airfields in the Netherlands and 2 in
Belgium, a factory near Mol, and 3 V-weapon supply sites in France; 5
fighters are lost:
  1. Of 79 B-17s dispatched to the Netherlands, 38 hit Gilze-Rijen Airfield,
20 hit Volkel Airfield and 19 hit Noll without loss.
  2. Of 221 B-24s, 43 hit Bois de Cassan V-weapon site, 36 hit Le Coulet
Airfield, 29 hit Foret de L'Isle Adam and 29 hit hit Mery sur Oise V-weapon
sites, 13 hit Eindhoven Airfield, 5 hit Melsbroek Airfield and 2 hit Tulemont
Airfield; 49 B-24s are damaged; 1 airman is WIA.
  The two missions above are escorted by 180 of 192 P-51s that claim 4-0-2
Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 1-0-0 on the ground; 2 P-51s are lost
(pilots are MIA).
  3. 70 of 71 B-17s hit Beziers marshalling yard; 13 B-17s are damaged. 228
P-47s and P-51s escort the bombers and claim 18-1-9 Luftwaffe aircraft in the
air and 1-0-0 on the ground; 2 P-47s and 1 P-51 are lost (pilots are MIA).
  Of 93 P-47s, 22 bomb Rouen, 10 hit L'Arche Bridge, 10 hit Seine River
locks, 7 hit Boissy le Bois, 7 hit Pantgouin, 7 hit Veulettes Bridge and 6
hit communication targets; they claim 3-0-0 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and
1-0-0 on the ground; 2 P-47s are lost (pilots are MIA). The P-47s are
escorted by 181 of 190 P-38s; 2 P-38s are lost (pilots MIA) and 1 is damaged
beyond repair.
  During the night, 8 of 8 B-17s drop leaflets in France with the loss of 1
B-17; and 8 B-24s fly CARPETBAGGER missions.
  70 B-17s on shuttle mission (UK-USSR-Italy-UK) attack a marshalling yard at
Beziers, France (with Fifteenth AF B-24s) while on the last leg from Italy to
the UK; 42 P-51s return to UK with the B-17s (of the 11 P-51s remaining in
Italy, 10 return to the UK the following day and the last several days
later).

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, about 180 B-26s and A-20s
bomb bridges at Caen and also sidings, tracks, and rolling stock; in the
afternoon 4 NOBALL (V-weapon) HQ are hit; 600+ fighters escort the bombers,
carry out armed reconnaissance of communication and enemy movements, attack
rail lines, rolling stock, marshalling yards, bridges, supply dumps, and
cover the beach area; HQ 67th Tactical Reconnaissance Group and 107th
Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron move from Middle Wallop, England to Le
Molay with F-6s; the 12th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron, 10th Photographic
Group (Reconnaissance) (attached to 67th Tactical Reconnaissance Group),
moves from Middle Wallop, England to Le Molay with F-6s; and the 380th
Fighter Squadron, 363d Fighter Group, moves from Staplehurst, England to
Maupertus with P-51s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Almost 500 bombers attack
targets in France; B-17s bomb the Montpellier marshalling yards; B-24s bomb
Beziers marshalling yards and Toulon submarine pens and harbor installations;
close to 200 fighter sorties are flown in support of the missions.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s bomb Villafranca
di Verona marshalling yard, Aulla railroad bridge, and Ostiglia fuel dumps
while A-20s blast a supply dump and rail lines; fighter-bombers hit tracks,
bridges, roads, and other targets in the battle area as the US Fifth Army
continues fierce fighting around Rosignano.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): P-47s fly fighter-bomber
operations over Saipan, Rota, and Tinian Islands.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: In the area around
Wewak, New Guinea, A-20s and fighter-bombers hit dumps at Dagua and attack
barges during the night of 4/5 Jul; light strikes are flown in support of
troops on Noemfoor Island and against barges, airfields, and troop
concentrations on Efman and Biak Islands and at Moemi, Manokwari, and in the
Wakde area. B-24s bomb airstrips and AA guns on Yap Island and Woleai Atoll;
Sorol Atoll and Peleliu Island are also hit.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 07:26:34 -0500
From:    John Davis <JBDML@OSBM6.OSBM.STATE.NC.US>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 05-JUL-1944

On 05-JUL-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - Heavy fighting is occuring along the entire Normandy front.
     The La Haye-du-Puits railway station is captured by the US VIII Corps.
     The VII Corps continues to slowly advance towards Periers, along the road
     leading from St Lo to Lessay on the west coast of the Cotentin peninusla.

Italian Front - The battle continues for Rosignano. The US 34th Division makes
     very slow progress against very strong German defences. The British XIII
     Corps meets stiffening German resistance from Vietinghoff's German 10th
     Army.

Marianas - On Saipan, the final stage of the capture of the south part of the
     island begins. The 4th Marine Division makes headway; while the 27th
     Infantry Division is stalled by the Japanese, who are dug in on the north
     side of a ravine called Harakiri Gulch.

New Guinea - On Numfoor Island, the Japanese counter-attack. The attacking
     troops, about 400 strong, are exterminated.

Burma/China - On the Salween river front, the Chinese 8th Army attacks Sung
     Shan from the south and east. Any ground captured is lost though after a
     Japanese counter-attack.

Naval Dispatches
----------------
German submarine U-133 sunk, by destroyer escorts THOMAS (DD-102) and BAKER
     (DE-190), in the North Atlantic area.

German submarine U-586 sunk by air attack, Toulon, France.

The Homefront
-------------
129,500 Women In Shipyards - The Department of Labor has announced that 10.3%
     of the workers in private shipyards are women, totaling 129,500. On the
     Pacific coast, the percentage is 16.1%.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  jbd@osbm.state.nc.us
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 08:16:25 -0400
From:    Warren Thompson <THOMPSON@ACAD.LVC.EDU>
Subject: HIST: Einzatzgruppen

I'll have to check my references (at home), but I seem to recall that a
number of EG commanders were tried after the war. Ironically, one of them,
Artur Nebe, was involved in the officers' plot against Hitler in '44 and
subsequently executed (I don't remember if he had a show trial before the
Volksgerichthof or was simply shot out of hand). Will post more information
later.

-- Warren Thompson
LEBANON VALLEY COLLEGE
Annville PA 17003

thompson@acad.lvc.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 08:26:19 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: 50TH: CELEBRATING JULY 4

On Mon, 4 Jul 1994 14:00:37 +0200 John Ausland said:
>  The following is an excerpt from a letter I sent to my parents on July 4,
>1944:
>
>          Dear Folks, July 4, 1944, Somewhere in France
>
>          Today, just to celebrate independence day we loaded every
>          gun - as did all battalions in the army - and fired them
>          simultaneously at 1200.

A variant on the "mad minute" (-:  Wonder what the Germans made of it?

ken koester
maint2@ers.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 08:37:00 -0500
From:    "Colin Brace (617)726-5085" <BRACEC@A1.MGH.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: KB1MK de WA1KWA

          Well......
          My dad was VE1YZ, my uncle is VE1ASV QTH Sailsbury, NB.

          BTW, wish I had the time/resources to post the "50 years ago"
          column in QST, some great stuff on the contribution of Amateur
          Radio to WW2, the article on the anaveriary of Pearl Harbor
          several years ago was great. My first receiver was an ARC-5, wish
          I had it now, what a collectable.

          There, got the WW2 stuff in to make it "legal" HI!

          Am primarly a cw person, 20 meters, chasing (casually) DX.

          73!

          Colin Brace WA1KWA

          BRACEC@A1.MGH.HARVARD.EDU

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 08:55:12 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <sep@TVSS2.COMMNET.EDU>
Subject: Re: Politics & the Smithsonian

I thank you, Mr. Dan Ford, for bareing the shenanighans of the Smithsonian
Institution under the glaring light for all to see. I have been a member
for several years, and and now reconsidering.

How sad to see such potential in the hands of such a self-destructive lot!

I wish I hadn't seen the message, but I'm glad I now know.

Thank you sir,
                                                        ;-[Steve
                                                        ,
                                                        ,

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - sep@trctc.commnet.edu |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 15:59:31 +0200
From:    John Ausland <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: GEN: US ARMY LIBERATION OF CONCENTRATION CAMPS?

  Oslo, July 5.  Can anyone put me on to material on the US Army liberation of
Nazi concentration camps?  I have a reference to R.H. Abzug, Inside the Vicious
Heart: Americans and the Liberation of Nazi Concentration Camps, 1985.  It is,
however, not available in any Norwegian library.
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 09:22:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Travis AFB B-29

FROM THE AIR FORCE NEWS AGNECY

072.  Miss America '62 returns
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
072.  Miss America '62 returns
by Patti Rogers
     A B-29 bomber hasn't called Travis AFB, California, home since the
1949-58 Strategic Air Command years, but on 18 June the Travis Historical
Society unveiled "Miss America '62" with all the fanfare of a long-lost
friend.
     For almost 10 years, members of the society put in over 12,000
volunteer man-hours restoring the 1944-circa bomber that will become one
of the Travis museum's static displays.
     The aircraft was welcomed to the museum fleet by a host of special
guests including two grandchildren of "the architect of the Air Force,"
General Henry H. "Hap" Arnold.  Also present were six members of the
aircraft's original crew, which flew 23 missions in the aircraft, and five
members of the second crew, which flew 15.  Adding to the history of the
day was the woman whose birth contributed to the aircraft's name.
     The old bomber's journey to Travis began in 1984 when the historical
society learned of some B-29s being stored at China Lake Naval Weapons
Test Facility in Southern California.  Bringing the worn aircraft back to
Travis was a chore, said Warren Bailey, society president.
     "The aircraft was so far out on the test range it had to be pulled by
a road-grader across the desert floor.  Then a volunteer-team spent about
15 days disassembling it so two C-5s and 10 trucks could bring the pieces
to Travis," said Bailey.
     The team removed the engines, the outer wing panels, the vertical and
horizontal tail assemblies, and disassociated the fuselage from the wing in
order to prepare it for the return voyage.
     The museum's restoration hangar housed the disassembled B-29 for the
next several years while it underwent refurbishment.  As the layers of
paint were removed, the plane's identity was revealed.
     Markings indicating the plane's former unit, the 6th Bombardment Group
(Very Heavy), appeared. Other markings aligned the plane to the 24th
Bombardment  Squadron (Very Heavy). The restoration team then found a
reunion group who identified several members of the original crew and a
mini-reunion was held at Travis in 1988 for those who flew Miss America '62
from Tinian Island in 1945.
     By 1992 the exterior was nearly 100 percent complete.  For the last
two years a team of seven volunteers took on the intense task of bringing
the interior of the Superfortress to restored status.
     And these history sleuths couldn't have been more pleased with what
they uncovered.  Near the navigator's seat, tucked under the installation
blanket, is the inscription, "To the G.I.'s good luck," which was written
by Viola Ann Kolinski, who installed installation blankets in B-29s at the
Martin factory in Omaha, Nebraska, in 1944.  She had left her address and
phone number, and the restoration team immediately started to search for
her.
     "She was so excited when we tracked her down," said Bailey.  "She said
it was very nice after all these years to be recognized for what she did."
Because of an illness in the family she wasn't able to attend the dedication.
     However, the bomber's namesake was there.
     The original crew, known as the Alger Crew No. 2409, chose the plane
off the ramp at Tinian Island and set out to name her.  The commander's
wife had just given birth to a daughter and that sparked an idea.
     "One of the crewmembers suggested she represent all the little girls
born that year, and he came up with the idea that they would be eligible to
be Miss America in 1962. Hence Miss America '62 was born."  Linda Alger,
the commander's daughter, participated in the dedication.
     Miss America '62 flew her last bomb mission against Japan and was
still flying the day the Japanese surrendered. After World War II she was
assigned to the Bahamas as a weather reconnaissance aircraft.
     (Rogers is contributing editor to the Travis AFB, Calif., Tailwind)
--

      //^\\
     /// \\\
    ///   \\\
   ///     \\\                    Air Force News Agency
   |         |              Kelly Air Force Base, Texas, USA
   \\ CMSgt //    ___________________ /____________________________________
   \\ Mike  //
   \\Bergman/
    \\    //
       ~~

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 09:16:17 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: E. Front Armour

Hello, Aldo!

Will try to answer your questions.

> BTW I herd last night that Mainstein (sp?) was quoted durning the
> occupation of the Ukraine that he wold feed none of the soviet
> people--food would be allowcated only to the Greman war effort,
> apparently starving the people--any thoughts, corrections on this; if
> true how does this affect ones judgement of him?

    No. Manstein was a professional soldier of the highest
credentials. Had he been shown to have given such an order and
carried it out, I feel certain that the Russians would have had him
up on war crimes, and would have found himself sitting in the dock,
which didn't happen.

    I, personally, have the greatest admiration for his abilities,
for he showed himself to be the consummate professional. Had he been
given control of operations on the Eastern Front from the beginning,
I feel certain that the outcome would have been different. I think
that needs to be considered regardless.

    Will try to get back to you on your questions referencing Soviet
and German tank qualities.

    That is my two cents' worth on the above, and hope you are well.

    Terry



Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 09:35:03 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Einsatzgruppe C

Hello, David!

I can add to the answer below, if I may.

> > Lastly, what happened to the Einsatzgruppen when the war ended?  Are any of
> > the men from these mobile death units still around today?
> I don't know if there are many around today, but I don't believe that too
> many were arrested and executed at the end of the war.

    Please consult the excellent work by the trial judge who heard
the cases during the Nuremberg Trials. His name was Justice Michael
A. Musmanno, and the book he wrote in the early 1960's is called "The
Eichmann Commandos". All this is dealt with in great detail here.

    One man, in particular, whose autograph I have been trying to
obtain is that of SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Bruno Streckenbach, who
commanded such a unit. He later commanded the 19th SS Panzer
Grenadier Division "Lettland" (Latvia) on the Eastern Front. He was a
holder of the Knight's Cross with Oakleaves and was the only KC
holder to command an special task force such as this. Mr.
Streckenbach survived the war. He was tried, sentenced to life
imprisonment, but pardoned in 1954, became a bank executive in
Hamburg and died in 1977. I have never seen his autograph anywhere,
and I have extensive contacts both here and abroad. This is just for
your information.

 One thing about the Einsatzgruppen. If you can get hold of a bio of
each of the individuals who commanded them, you will find that they
were above average intelligence, in most cases professional people,
and most possessed a univeristy education. It makes one wonder!

Hope this helps.

Terry





Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 09:58:33 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: Crossposting?  The culprit speaks.  :-)

Hello, Lou!

If you asking for speculation, I would like to add my two cents'
worth to this.

 >      Thought the topic (even more) applicable to WWII-
L. > I'd like to see if John Lundstrom and a few other folks here
> think the Japanese could have taken Hawaii in Dec41.

    Yes, if the Japanese had had the will to do so. However, their
problem would have been to try to hang on to it, as it would have
been so far behind their lines that they would have been really hard
put to supply the island. Also, the Japanese would have had to
contend with a hostile population which would have made their staying
there most uncomfortable, time consuming and requiring many troops
for occupation duties.

    Also, given the lack of technology at the time, particularly with
the Japanese not even considering an invasion of the US, what good
would it have done them to occupy the island? Where were they going
to go, and even with the most modest plans under consideration at the
time, the Japanese simply didn't possess the materiel or other
wherewithal to sustain operations in any direction from that quarter
had they been successful in occupying the island. As I see it, the
Japanese would have been faced with many more negatives than
positives had they occupied Pearl Harbor.

    I also think that there would have been a concerted effort made
from here to retake the island at the earliest possible opportunity,
as, regarding our future intentions, it would have been an
impossibility to conduct those operations without possessing the
naval base at Pearl Harbor.

    Hope this helps, and that is my two cents' worth on this.

    Terry








Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 11:08:16 -0400
From:    Ron Babuka <wrb1@CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: Re: Trivial Nonsense

>> occupation of the Ukraine that he wold feed none of the soviet


It's poll time - is it "the Ukraine" or "Ukraine"?  My grandparents
emigrated from Ukraine (you can see my answer to the poll) and my ethnic
pride has at times forced me into fun little water-cooler discussions. The
word "Ukraine" actually roughly means "the frontier" so using the term "the
Ukraine" could be construed as saying "the the frontier".  Of course you
wouldn't say that "Sherman marched through the Georgias" but you could say
"Sherman marched through the Carolinas".  Just curious if anyone had the
end-all answer on Ukraine (ooops there I go again).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka                                         National Warplane Museum
Cornell University                                 Geneseo, New York
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 10:22:03 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN RE: Colorization and loss of historic film

Hello, Sid!


 I think it is
> quite presumptious of anyone (even if they are Ted Turner) to colorize
> documenting footage.

    I completely agree with you. I can't imagine why anyone would
want to colorize a film, originally shot in B&W when the director or
producer want to create a film for its artistic value as well, and
color doesn't get it.

    However, I have heard that colorized movies will be viewed by
more people, particularly younger people, and the almighty dollar is
the name of the game. That and ratings.

    I guess you can always turn the "color" knob on the set to
eliminate color and view the film in B&W. But even so!

    Thanks for allowing my thoughts on this as well.

    Terry


Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 10:27:10 EST
From:    Roger Coon <COON@IPFWCVAX.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Trivial Nonsense

According to a recent newsarticle that I read only God knows where,
it is officially Ukraine and Ukrainian officials have been stressing the
point.  I have to admit, I grew up saying The Ukraine and it will be a while
before it wears off.
************************************************
Roger (Brad) Coon            "Better to have one
COON@IPFWCVAX.BITNET          freedom too many,
COON@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU    than to have one
                              too few."

Politically incorrect and proud of it.
Niquimictitoc inana Bambi.
************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 12:05:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: DC-3

For those of you in the New York metro area, WNET, Channel 13, is
rebroadcasting the NOVA program entitled THE PLANE THAT CHANGED THE WORLD
tonight at 2000-2100 EDT.  This is the story of the DC-3/C-47/C-48/C-49/
C-50/C-51/C-52/C-53/C-117/R4D/Dakota/Gooney Bird, etc. on the 50th
anniversary of it's first flight in 1936.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 11:52:00 -0500
From:    "Colin Brace (617)726-5085" <BRACEC@A1.MGH.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: Thoughts

          RE: (The) Ukraine terminology; I recall in Churchill's WW2
          History he referred to what we now commonly refer to Lebanon as
          'The Lebanon'.

          RE: Smithsonian PC; I speak as the secretary of my town's
          Historical Society, slightly smaller than the Smithsonian (!).
          Just wondering where their funding is coming from lately. Has
          there been a gradual shift to non-domestic grants/gifts? Not to
          be the eternal cynic, but this may have something to do with the
          presentation. Translation: Money talks.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 12:00:26 -0400
From:    Warren Thompson <THOMPSON@ACAD.LVC.EDU>
Subject: HIST: More on Einsatzgruppen

For David and other interested parties: THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF THE HOLOCAUST,
Vol 2, has an excellent article on the EG, including a map of their theaters
of operation and a short bibliography. Beginning in July 1947, the US held
trials of EG leaders. See THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA v. OTTO OHLENDORF et
al, US Govt Printing Office. This is one of the "Subsequent Nuremberg
Proceedings," the ninth trial conducted by the Nuremberg Military Tribunals.

See also Lozowick, Y. "Rollbahn Mord: The Early Activities of Einsatzgruppe
C," HOLOCAUST AND GENOCIDE STUDIES, 2/2 (1987), 221-241.

Hope this helps.

-- Warren Thompson

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 12:40:58 -0400
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Trivial Nonsense

Perhaps interestingly (or not) I grew up referring to your homeland as
"Ukrainia". I'm a generation or so older, so maybe it's another example
of how country names can change within a relatively short period of time.
        On the same note, for instance, it is onlt recently that people
from Argentina have become called "Argentinians".  Until quite recently,
they were called, simply, "Argentines".

--

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 11:46:00 EST
From:    Daniel Malepart <MALEPART@A1.ATMONT.MRGATE.ATOTT2.NRC.CA>
Subject: Re: Politics & the Smithsonian

From:   NAME: Daniel Malipart
        FUNC: PARI/CPA/Montreal
        TEL: (514) 283-0348                   <MALEPART@A1@ATMONT>
To:     in%"WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU"@nrc@outside

    If I can add my two-cent worth to the debate...

    I don't think it is correct to try to make a judgment on past actions
    based on present-day values...

    If you take the action of dropping the A-bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki
    totally out of its context, based on what we know today on a nuclear
    explosion's effects, sure, you'll come up with the conclusion that "the
    Americans were immoral and the Japanese were victims"...

    *BUT*, if we look at the bigger picture, and consider the Japanese's
    fanaticism, and the options available at the time to bring the war to
    its conclusion (eg. full-scale invasion of Japan per se), we can maybe
    understand - if not approve - the use of the bomb.

    I remember reading somewhere about a plan for the invasion of the
    Japanese mainland - I think it was called "Operation Olympics".  If I
    remember correctly, one of the generals involved in its planning
    predicted that there would be 100,000 US deaths in this invasion.
    Sorry I don't remember where I read about this - I think it was in an
    old issue of Life magazine (If someone on WWII-L can give me references
    on this invasion plan, I would be pleased!).

    It is easy to make a judgment on things that happened in the past -
    esp. when the peoples who made the decisions are not around anymore.
    But I think we should make an effort in trying to understand the
    context before we make that judgment.

    Daniel Malepart, Computer specialist | "Il faut detester la guerre et
    Montreal, Quebec, Canada             | respecter ceux qui l'ont faite."
    malepart@a1.atmont.nrc.ca            | - Antoine de St-Exupery

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 13:36:41 -0400
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: GEN RE: Colorization and loss of historic film

Terry Moore <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU> writes:
>     I guess you can always turn the "color" knob on the set to
> eliminate color and view the film in B&W. But even so!

        Actually, this won't recapture the original picture.  The
colorization process mucks with the brightness and contrast of the
film as well so that viewing a colorized B&W film on a B&W TV will
not be the same as watching the B&W film in its original form.  As
an example, consider the first few seasons of the Superman TV show.
They were filmed in B&W and George Reeves actually wore a brown and
yellow Superman outfit for contrast in the B&W medium.  In order to
colorize such a film, B&W "brown" would be turned to red and B&W
"yellow" would be turned to blue, trashing all the other browns and
yellows.  To avoid this problem, the constrast of the Superman outfit
would be changed.
--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
We have our own ammunition -- it's filled with paint.  When we
fire it, it makes pretty pictures -- scares the hell out of people!

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 12:40:00 PDT
From:    "Wsiaki, Bill" <WSIAKI@BLDGEDUC.LAN1.UMANITOBA.CA>
Subject: Trivial Nonsense & colorization

Correctly speaking, it is not appropriate to say "the" Ukraine.  In the
Ukrainian language, the country is spelled YKRAIHA with an umlaut over the
letter "I".  Transliterated into english it is spelled UKRAINA. She (the
country) is also referred to in the feminine sense.

On the topic of colorization of old documentary films, I have seen some old
German documentaries that were shot in color but it is rare.  Whether in
photography or motion pictures, all artistic values aside, it was a cheaper,
faster and easier process (at the time) to work in B & W.  Just imagine if
camcorders would have been as plentiful then as they are now.

Bill Wsiaki

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 14:19:02 -0400
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Trivial Nonsense & colorization

Bill W...
        Though, as you say, most WW2 German combat movies were shot in b&w,
there were also quite a number of combat movies shot with COLOR film.
        For some reason or other, the SS used color in many of their films,
and also a good deal of SS still photos were taken with color negatives.
        On the Allied side, the United States Marine Corps shot quite a
number of combat footage on color movie film.
        A very rare example of British wartime movie filmed in color was
taken by an individual senior RAF officer with his personal 16mm movie
camera.  His footage turned up a few years ago, and was processed into a
very interesting -- and very rare -- color documentary about Avro Lancaster
bombers in combat.
Regards -- Sidney Allinson.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 14:32:57 -0500
From:    "W.C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <ERCOUPE@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN RE: Colorization and loss of historic film

A lot of what we are talking about here is ethics vs. rights.

I am of mixed feelings on this.  I *wish* that the owners of these
films would keep them intact, but I must also recognize their
*right* to do with their property what they want.

It is kinda like seeing a P-51 getting all chopped up for unlimited
racing.  While I may *wish* they would have kept it original
and preserved the appearance, I must also recognize their right
to do with it what they please.

Whether or not it is ethical to modify films is another question, but
because of the attendant preservation efforts that accompany the
colorization process, it may be a matter of being thankful for the
colorized version because the alternate is no film at all.

Quite honestly, I would hope that every film would have at least one
copy preserved intact, in the original version.

Bill
N93774@vms.cis.pitt.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 15:08:20 EDT
From:    Robert E George <regeorge@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Subject: REF: Planned Invasdion of Japan?

     Eddy Bauer's "Illustrated Encyclopedia of the Second World War",
published by Funk & Wagnalls in the late 1980's, has a map of the
planned invasion, including the U.S. Armies slated for use.

                              Rob George
                              regeorge@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 15:20:19 -0400
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: GEN RE: Colorization and loss of historic film

I have a half-hour video in color, produced by the US 8th Air Force
around 1944.
The subject is the work of air-gunners ("aerial-gunners"in USAAF). It
was directed by Capt Clark Gable, at the express request of the airforce,
with the intention of helping increase recruitment for the hazardous
job of air-gunners.
The movie was originally filmed in color, with 16mm Kodak negative stock.
Bears up nicely in video form, and makes an excellent historical record
now of what it was like manning a gun-turret on Flying Fortresses in WW2.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 17:09:31 -0400
From:    David Rising <drising@IO.ORG>
Subject: Invasion of Japan (was:Politics & the Smithsonian)

Daniel, I believe that the U.S. estimated 1,000,000 American casualties
if they had to invade Japan, not 100,000 as you had suggested. One
million may seem outrageous, but I think that the Americans had about 100,000
casualties in the Battle of the Bulge alone, just to put things in
perspective. Cheers,
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 17:48:29 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET>
Subject: Re: GEN RE: Colorization and loss of historic film

In my humble opinion, what we are talking about here is MONEY.

As long as colorization makes money, somebody will do it.

Period.

As one who is not a professional historian, but a *very* serious
student of history, this is one lesson I have learned very well.

George Bauer
U.S.A.:  BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 21:44:33 -0500
From:    Jon Stevens <jstevens@DAVID.WHEATON.EDU>
Subject: Re: USMC color films

On Tue, 5 Jul 1994, Sidney Allinson wrote:


>         On the Allied side, the United States Marine Corps shot quite a
> number of combat footage on color movie film.

I have just viewed two examples of this, "To the Shores of Iwo Jima" and
"With the Marines of Tarawa" that is part of the first volume of a video
series called "The Colors of War".  The color footage of Tarawa is
excellent.  It won an academy award in 1944.

Jon Stevens -- jstevens@david.wheaton.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 22:51:46 -0400
From:    "Arthur D. Venzin" <VENZIN@CALVIN.CC.DUQ.EDU>
Subject: Signoff WWii-l

sorry to have to leave but going on vacation.  see you all in a week or 2

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 4 Jul 1994 to 5 Jul 1994
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 21 messages totalling 1050 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Coatney adrift in academic seas.  :-)
  2. INF: USN Chronology 07-06-94
  3. MANSTEIN'S "PROFESSIONALISM"
  4. Gen. Short
  5. [INF] USAAF 6 JUL 44
  6. Guam/Nippon reconciliation
  7. Re[2]: Coatney adrift in academic seas. :-)
  8. Invasion of Japan
  9. 50TH: ATTACK ON STRONG POINT
 10. A-bomb/Smithsonian (7)
 11. info is requested
 12. Re[2]: A-bomb/Smithsonian
 13. Wendy and the A-Bomb
 14. Aleutians, et al
 15. E. Front Armour

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 22:25:41 PST
From:    "Jones, Scott T." <sjones@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: Re: Coatney adrift in academic seas.  :-)

     So, Lou,

     Did you get the job?


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Coatney adrift in academic seas.  :-)
Author:  World War II Discussion List <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu> at
INTERNET-MAIL
Date:    6/30/94 6:51 PM


Forwarded message:
>From coatneyl@ccmail.wiu.bgu.edu Thu Jun 30 20:17 CDT 1994
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 94 20:13:06 CST
From: "Lou Coatney" <coatneyl@ccmail.wiu.bgu.edu>
Message-Id: <9405307730.AA773032386@ccmail.wiu.bgu.edu>
To: mslrc%ecnuxa@ccmail.wiu.bgu.edu
Subject: Coatney adrift in academic seas.
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 3375



                               RESUME
Louis R. COATNEY                                   626 Western Ave.
coatneyl@ccmail.wiu.bgu.edu                        Macomb IL 61455
                                                   309/836-1447

OBJECTIVE:  To teach history and historical thinking.

EDUCATION:
  MA in History, May94, WIU:  3.8 (out of possible 4.0) GPA
      Fields:  Modern Europe and U.S. (Military/Diplomatic)
    Thesis topic:  Significance to the West of the Katyn Massacre
    Initiated (for general scholarship) into Phi Kappa Phi, Apr92,
        and (for historical scholarship) Phi Alpha Theta, Dec91
  MS in Library Science, Aug73, Univ. of Illinois/Champaign/Urbana
  BA in Philosophy, May72, Augustana College (Rock Island, Illinois)
    (Also: Knox Coll., Sep65-Mar66, and U.S. Mil. Acad., Jul64-Jan65)
  Rock Island Senior High School, Class of 1964

PUBLICATION:
  "A New Library Patron:  The Systemwide User."  ILLINOIS LIBRARIES
      75 (May93:  Library Cooperation):  240-42.
  A PLACE FOR GAMES AND SIMULATIONS IN ACADEMIC LIBRARIES:  ARE THEY
      DIGESTIBLE?  ERIC Document ED 330 339.  1990.
  "Best Laid Plans . . . ASPIN and the Quest for Total Depository
      Collection of Alaska State Publications."  ILLINOIS LIBRARIES
      71 (Nov89:  Accessing Government Documents):  457-62.
  GERMAN EAGLE VS. RUSSIAN BEAR:  A WORLD WAR II RUSSIAN FRONT BOARD-
      GAME KIT.  ED 287 786.  1987.  (2d ed. to be republished 1994)
  Various library education handouts, etc.

EXPERIENCE:
  Teaching:
    Library research skills instruction classes, Jan89-Jun94
    "Campaigns of World War II," Juneau-Douglas (Alaska) Comm. Coll.
        1976(?)
  Librarianship:
    Western Illinois University Library, Jan89-Jun94
      Reference librarian, Jan89-Jun94
      Part-time:  Quad Cities Library Services Coordinator, Sum92-
          Oct92;  WIU Map Librarian, Sum91-Sum92;  Government
          Publications, Jan89-Sum91
    Alaska State Library, Juneau, Sep73-Jan89
  U.S. Army, volunteer/draftee, Jan67-Jan69:  West Texas and Germany

ACTIVITIES, SERVICE, ORGANIZATIONS:
  WIU (Student-Faculty) Council on Student Welfare (CSW), 1991-1994
  WIU Chess Club Faculty Advisor, 1990-1994
  World War II Studies Association (formerly, American Committee on
      the History of the Second World War), 1986-1994
  North Central Association High School Accreditation Team (evalu-
      ating Rock Island Senior High School library), Nov92
  Various Internet forums: MILHST-L, WWII-L, CONSIM-L, H-DIPLO, IACRL
  Contributor, MAGAZINES FOR LIBRARIES (1994)
  Various library committees, organizations

LANGUAGES:  Some German, a little French, less Russian

INTERESTS:
  Military and naval history and gaming, classical music, chess,
      Alaska, general reading, sailing, jogging.

REFERENCES:
  Prof. Nicholas Pano, Associate Dean of Arts and Sciences and
      (Soviet and Eastern Europe) History professor, WIU,
      309/298-1828
  Dr. Sterling Kernek, (Diplomatic) History professor, WIU,
      309/298-1350
  Dr. Daniel Wise, Chair, Geography Department, WIU, 309/298-1648

                          * * * * * * *

I might add that I enjoy people and helping them learn.  Also, I have
  a personal, living memory of the important events of post-1950
  history, while maintaining/nurturing a somewhat independent and
  original mind about them.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Jul 1994 01:17:36 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 07-06-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
07/06 Thu. Carrier-based aircraft commence daily bombings of Japanese
           coastal and antiaircraft guns, supply dumps, and airfields
           installations on Guam and Rota, Marianas Islands.
            Japanese naval vessel sunk:
             Destroy HOKAZE, by submarine PADDLE (SS-263), Celebes
              Sea,
              03 d. 24'N., 125 d.  28'E.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Jul 1994 11:45:28 GMT,BST
From:    John Gillies <JOHNG@PSY.GLA.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: MANSTEIN'S "PROFESSIONALISM"

Terry writes:
>
>     No. Manstein was a professional soldier of the highest
> credentials. Had he been shown to have given such an order and
> carried it out, I feel certain that the Russians would have had him
> up on war crimes, and would have found himself sitting in the dock,
> which didn't happen.
>
>     I, personally, have the greatest admiration for his abilities,
> for he showed himself to be the consummate professional. Had he been
> given control of operations on the Eastern Front from the beginning,
> I feel certain that the outcome would have been different. I think
> that needs to be considered regardless.
>
At Manstein's trial, the prosecution introduced in evidence an Order
of the Day, issued by Manstein on November 20, 1941, in which he
reminded each soldier of the 11th Army that he was "not merely a
fighter according to the rules of the art of war, but also the
bearer of a pitiless ideology......therefore the soldier should
understand the necessity for a severe but just revenge on subhuman
Jewry."
Sounds a little more than "professionalism" to me.
Manstein was sentenced to 18 years imprisonment (subsequently
reduced to twelve).
John



John Gillies
Department of Psychology
Adam Smith Building
University of Glasgow
Glasgow  G12 8RT                      Tel: (0)41 339 8855 ext.5351
Scotland
                         johng@psy.gla.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Jul 1994 06:59:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Gen. Short

Last week, I sent out e-mail stating that Admiral Kimmel, Commander of the
Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor, had traveled from San Francisco to Honolulu
to assume command of the fleet and had neglected to read a briefing book
that had been furnished. Someone challenged me on this and I must report
that my message was false; it was not Admiral Kimmel but Lieutenant General
Walter C. Short, Commanding General of the Army's Hawaiian Department. My
source is PEARL HARBOR FINAL JUDGEMENT by Henry C. Clausen and Bruce Lee
published by Crown Publishers, Inc in 1992 (ISBN 0-517-58644-4). I do not
remember a discussion of this book on the list so as an introduction, this
is from the dust cover:

"In 1944, Secretary of War Henry L. Stimson, knowing that high-ranking
members of the military had testified falsely before the various bodies
investigating Pearl Harbor, selected a lowly major and young lawyer named
Henry C. Clausen and gave him extraordinary authority to go anywhere and
question anyone under oath, from enlisted personnel right up to Chief of
Staff George C. Marshall. To this day, no member of the public knows the
full story of Clausen's investigation. Over seven months during 1944 and
1945, Clausen traveled more than 55,000 miles (88,512 km) to interview and
obtain sworn affidavits from nearly one hundred Army, Navy, civilian, and
British personnel. Many of these people never testified before any other
inquiry, including Congress. Clausen wore a self-destructing case
containing ultrasecret decoded Japanese messages that forced witnesses to
tell the truth and opened files that revealed a massive, inconceivable
failure to exploit the priceless intelligence obtained by the United States
in the months prior to Pearl Harbor.

"Clausen presented an 800-page report to Secretary of War Stimson - but
because his report was Top Secret, he did not write a conclusion. That
conclusion, and in fact Clausen's entire Top Secret report, would have torn
apart the government of the United States and revealed the breathtaking
secret capability of the Allies to crack Japanese and German codes. Henry
Clausen is the last major living witness, the one person who can reveal,
fifty years afterward, the real truth about Pearl Harbor.

"His 'final judgement' puts an end to all the conspiracy theories
mistakenly based on perjured testimony and self-serving misinformation that
continue to pollute the historical record.

"Henry C. Clausen lives and practices law in San Francisco.

"Bruce Lee, who lives in New York City, has been editor-researcher for
Cornelius Ryan, the editor of Gordon Prange and Admiral Layton, and is
regarded as a major figure in military history."

So sayeth the dust cover entries.

Clausen states that he took an affidavit from Major General Charles D.
Herron who had commanded the Hawaiian Department from October 1937 until
relieved by General Short on 7 February 1941.  One of the problems in the
transfer of command was that Herron was scheduled to depart on the same
ship that brought Short and his wife to Hawaii and that gave Herron less
than 2.5 days to brief Short.  To make it easier for Short, Herron had his
staff prepare a briefing book that was sent to San Francisco thereby
allowing Short time to become familiar with the command.  "Upon my meeting
Short when he arrived," said Herron, "I asked him whether he had read the
papers and material.  He replied that ....he had not given them much time
while en route."  Short stated that he read a novel, OLIVER WISWELL, during
the trip.

According to Herron, he did what he could in the limited time available
including giving Short a briefing on the staff officers.  According to
Herron, "I told him of my estimate as to the efficiency of the staff
officers and, with respect to G-2, that Colonel George W. Bicknell, a
Reserve Officer, was an experienced and qualified, efficient man for that
position, and that it had been my intention to make him my G-2.  I further
told him of the G-2 work being done, of the liaison with the Navy, the FBI,
and related sources of information, of the defense plans [for Pearl
Harbor], of my experience with the ALL-OUT alert of 1940...."  Bicknell had
been involved in intelligence as far back as World War I.

One of the reasons given for the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor was that
the military was afraid of scaring the civil population by holding an
ALL-OUT alert.  Yet on 17 June 1940, the War Department had ordered a trial
alert as an exercise based on war games that had shown that the best way
for an unknown enemy to devastate the fleet in Pearl Harbor would be a
surprise aerial attack.  The actual order for the alert from Washington had
read:

"Immediately alert complete defensive organization to deal with possible
trans-Pacific raid, to the greatest extent possible without creating public
hysteria or provoking undue curiosity of newspapers or alien agents.
Suggest maneuver basis.  Maintain alert until further orders.  Instructions
for secret communications direct with Chief of Staff will be furnished you
shortly.  Acknowledge."

Herron had conducted the maneuvers successfully and the civilian population
had been unconcerned.

Herron reiterated to Clausen his statement that he had briefed Short about
"the relations and cooperation which had existed with the Navy, of the
civilian population, of the Japanese situation, of the assumption that
alien agents conducted for the Japanese government."  Herron also took
Short on a tour around Oahu, showed Short the Army installations and "gave
him my ideas of possible attack and defense of that island."

Then Herron stated, "Following my talks with General Short at the time, he
did not ever ask my opinion, or for information, or correspond with me on
the subject of command or related problems."

Another incident involving Short was the rewriting the Standard Operating
Procedure (SOP) involving alerts.  In the SOP dated 14 Jul 1941, Number 1
alert was the highest alert and Number 3 the lowest.  This is the SOP that
was on file in Washington.  On 5 November 1941, Short and/or his staff
rewrote the SOP reversing the numbers, i.e., Number 1 alert was the lowest
and Number 3 the highest; this revised SOP was never sent to Washington.
Clausen asked Herron if this was a normal procedure; Herron responded,
"The Commander may and should take whatever action he believes dictated by
necessity, but must so report to the War Department at the earliest possible
moment."  When the War Department sent a war warning to Hawaii on 27
November 1941, Short had ordered his Alert Number 1. Washington thought that
this was the maximum effort but under Short's new SOP this was a minimum
alert.

According to Clausen, Herron further stated, off the record, that he did
not feel that Short was up to the job.  Herron stated that Short, a
specialist in training troops, was in the last post of his career and did
not want the Hawaiian command; he thought it beneath him.  Short was
supported in this by his wife who believed that after spending all those
years as an Army wife, she deserved better than to be taken away from her
friends and relatives and isolated in a distant post in Hawaii.  Both
General and Mrs. Short had been hoping for a post in Washington or at the
Presidio in San Francisco.

Herron went on to say that after he reported to his new post in Washington,
he received reports that Short was very nonchalant about his duties in
Hawaii.  Supposedly, Short's wife would call him frequently and complain
vehemently about life in general and he would leave to go home and calm her
down regardless of what he was working on.

Another thing that bothered Herron was that Short promoted Colonel Kendall
J. Fielder to be his G-2.  Herron's G-2 was Colonel Bicknell who had
established excellent relations with the Navy, FBI, FCC monitoring
station, the British, etc. whereas Fielder was inexperienced with
intelligence matters.  Clausen states that there two reasons for this move.
Bicknell was a Reserve Officer recently recalled to active duty, a
rough-tough man who was more like a cop.  Fielder was a West Point graduate,
smooth, polished, urbane, a 10-handicap golfer and a good dancer.  Whenever
Short was busy, someone had to accompany Mrs. Short to social events; that
someone was Colonel Fielder.  Such was Army life in 1941.

In Jul 1941, Colonel H.S. Burwell, Air Corps, had completed a special
investigation of the Hawaiian Department and reported many deficiencies in
the command; one of the major issues was the mind-set of both the Hawaiian
Department and Hawaiian Air Force.  Among other things, the report stated:

  1. The Air Force staffs were unable to understand the immediate need for
steps to prevent sabotage, but a "considerable portion of the Command"
failed to comprehend the realities of modern warfare.  As Burwell put it:
"[They] do not see the mental picture of the interplay of relations now
existing between intercontinental theatres of war and our local sphere of
action."

  2. The Hawaiian command was not alert to the possibility that the
American Forces in Hawaii might have to react quickly in the event of a
surprise enemy attack.  This was especially true in the event of "an abrupt
conflict with Japan."

  3. The causes for these failures were those of the ingrained habits of
peacetime.  There was a carefree sense of "no worry" that was created by
the isolation of a tropical island with a large force of troops stationed
on it.  This meant that operations and supply functions received priority
attention from Short's staff, and there was "relative inattention accorded
in peacetime to intelligence functions."

  4. The troops had lost their "aggressive initiative."  The posture of the
command was one of a purely defensive attitude.  Nor was there any evidence
by which Burwell could ascertain that the command itself had any "critical
concern for the future."

  5. In other words, Burwell's inspection report said that Short's command
was lazy and ill prepared for the outbreak of a war that everyone believed
was coming.  Worse, nothing was being done to change the situation.  The
Army's Hawaiian command was a perpetual happy hour.

I would appreciate any other comments from people who are familiar with
this subject and/or this book.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Jul 1994 07:07:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 6 JUL 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
THURSDAY, 6 JULY 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-26, Douglas Invader
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 12 P-40s attack a bridge near
Myitkyina while 40+ others support ground forces in the area; several other
P-40s attack Maingna, barracks at Sahmaw, a train at Taungni, and troops at
Sakangyi; 6 B-25s bomb Maingna and 2 hit Mohnyin; and HQ 311th Fighter
Group moves from Dinjan, India to Tingkawk Sakan.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, B-25s, P-40s, and P-51s continue to
pound river shipping, bridges, troop concentrations, road traffic, and
general targets of opportunity throughout a wide area around Tungting Lake
and along the Yangtze River; hit particularly hard are the town area and
supply depot at Sinshih; B-25s near the Burma border cause considerable
damage at Tengehung and drop supplies to Chinese ground forces on the Salween
front, and during the night of 6/7 Jul bomb Tien Ho Airfield at Canton.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Twentieth Air Force): Brigadier General LaVern G
Saunders becomes Commanding General XX Bomber Command with HQ at Kharagpur,
India.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 455: In the morning,
missions are flown to France and Germany:
  1. 800 bombers and 224 fighters are dispatched to bomb 18 V-weapon sites in
the Pas de Calais area; 556 of 641 B-17s and 133 of 159 B-24s bomb; 1 B-17 is
damaged beyond repair; 161 B-17s and 59 B-24s are damaged; 2 airmen are KIA
and 3 WIA. Escort is provided by 141 P-38s and 83 P-51s; they claim 4-0-0
Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 P-38 is lost (pilot is MIA).
  2. 229 of 262 B-24s bomb the dock area at Kiel, Germany and 1 hits a target
of opportunity; 3 B-24s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 105 damaged; 8
airmen are WIA and 22 MIA. Escort is provided by 168 of 189 P-51s; 1 P-51 is
lost (pilot is MIA).
  Mission 456: In the late afternoon 73 of 104 B-17s and 148 of 176 B-24s
strike 6 V-weapon sites and supply installations, 3 railroad bridges, a
highway bridge, and an airfield in N France. Escort is provided by 443 P-38s,
P-47s and P-51s; 1 P-47 is lost; afterwards a squadron of P-47s dive-bombs 3
airfields in the Conches area.
  212 P-38s and P-47s, fly fighter-bomber missions against rail and road
traffic in the Paris area; they claim 11-1-2 Luftwaffe aircraft; 2 P-47s are
lost (pilots are MIA).
  Mission 457: 7 of 7 B-17s drop leaflets in Belgium and France during the
night.
  20 B-24s fly CARPETBAGGER missions; 1 B-24 is lost. A C-47 makes the
first landing at a secret airstrip in the Ain, France area.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France during the morning around
500 B-26s and A-20s bomb bridges and rail lines at 8 locations; in the
afternoon 5 targets are attacked, including bridges, fuel dumps, railroad
tracks, and a V-weapon location; 15+ fighter groups escort bombers, fly armed
reconnaissance of rail lines, roads, and marshalling yards, damaging or
destroying tracks, trains, a tunnel, a building, and a supply dump; fighters
also cover the beach and bomb and strafe troop concentrations and gun
positions; HQ 404th Fighter Group and 506th, 507th and 508th Fighter
Squadrons move from Winkton, England to Chapelle with P-47s; the 14th Liaison
Squadron, XIX Tactical Air Command, moves from Ibsley, England to Nehou with
L-5s; and the 388th Fighter Squadron, 365th Fighter Group, moves from
Beaulieu, England to Azeville with P-47s. In England, HQ 367th Fighter Group
and 393d and 394th Fighter Squadrons move from Stony Cross to Ibsley with
P-38s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Italy, 530+ B-17s and B-24s
attack the Verona marshalling yard, Bergamo steel works, Avisio viaduct,
Tagliamento-Casarsa della Delizia railroad bridge, Aviano oil and gasoline
storage, Porto Marghera oil storage, and Trieste oil refinery; P-51s and
P-38s provide escort; and the 99th Fighter Squadron, 332d Fighter Group,
moves from Orbetello to Ramitelli with P-51s.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, A-20s hit an ammunition
ship at La Spezia during the night of 5/6 Jul and continue attacks on fuel
supplies during the day; medium bombers again hit communication,
concentrating on bridges N of the battleline, and attack enemy warehouses and
HQ; fighter-bombers hit rail lines (with especially good results between
Viareggio and Massa Lombarda) and damage several bridges just N of the battle
area as the US Fifth Army continues clearing Rosignano and takes Castellina
Marittima and Mount Vaso.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): P-47s bomb and strafe forces on
Saipan, Rota, and Tinian Islands. B-24s, staging through Eniwetok Atoll,
pound Truk Atoll during the night of 5/6 Jul and follow with another raid
during the day. B-25s, based at Makin Island, hit Nauru Island. The 333d
Fighter Squadron, 318th Fighter Group, moves from Bellow Field, Territory
of Hawaii to Saipan Island with P-47s.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: In New Guinea,
B-25s, A-20s, and fighter-bombers continue to pound the Wewak area,
concentrating on troops S of Matapau; B-25s and fighter-bombers sweep the N
coast of the Vogelkop Peninsula and offshore islands, hitting targets of
opportunity; other fighter-bombers hit the Manokwari area and buildings at
Ransiki, Moari, and Oransbari; airfields, gun positions, communication
targets, and supply dumps in the area around Babo are hit by B-24s, A-26s,
A-20s, and P-38s. B-24s bomb the town and warehouse area of Yap Island and a
few hit the airfield at Woleai Atoll.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Jul 1994 08:11:34 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Guam/Nippon reconciliation

   On July 21, U.S. veterans will congregate near Asan Beach on Guam to
commemorate the 50th anniversary of the retaking of the Pacific island
after 32 months of Japanese occupation. Japanese participation is expected
to be a key feature of the "Liberation Day" proceedings. "Ours is a ceremony
of reconciliation", says Mark Forbes, deputy chief of staff to Guam's
governor Joseph Ada. "We're not trying to relive the past."

   Guam's economy is supported mostly by Japanese visitors, so of course
the govenment is encouraging sound relations. There are however groups
which are demanding reparations from Japan for forced labor, confiscated
property, and deaths during the occupation.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
ALAN WILD, LAN MGR.  FATHER OF 1.556           VOICE:          (401) 792-2611
ACC - Lippitt - URI  American Legion Post 102. FAX:            (401) 792-5479
Kingston, RI  02881                            Bitnet:           AWild@URIACC
                                               Internet: AWild@URIACC.URI.EDU

  Television, in its present form, makes it difficult for Americans to
understand different cultures. It's a medium that conveys emotion better
than reason. Abstractions as powerful as religions and ideologies, deficits,
languages, and collective memories and loyalties just don't make it.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                      - Graham Fraser -Toronto Globe & Mail

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Jul 1994 07:48:11 CDT
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re[2]: Coatney adrift in academic seas. :-)

Lou--call me today--there may be a position here at NMSU in Special
Collections that may interest you.  TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Jul 1994 09:15:14 EDT
From:    "Patrick D. Marsden" <marsden@TEXAS.CPI.COM>
Subject: Re: Invasion of Japan

For anyone looking for a good new reference on
the proposed invasion of the Japanese home islands,
"The Invasion of Japan, Alternative to the Bomb,"
by John Ray Skates, University of South Carolina
Press, 1994, isbn: 0-87249-972-3.  It contains a good
amount of detail on both the allied and Japanese
capabilities and intentions.

Patrick,


marsden@euler.cpi.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Jul 1994 14:57:22 +0200
From:    John Ausland <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: 50TH: ATTACK ON STRONG POINT

  Oslo, July 6.  This is part of John Davis' posting of 50 years ago today for
July 5:

>On 05-JUL-1944, the following occurred -
>
>World War II - The Battlefronts
>-------------------------------
>Western Front - Heavy fighting is occuring along the entire Normandy front.
>     The La Haye-du-Puits railway station is captured by the US VIII Corps.
>     The VII Corps continues to slowly advance towards Periers, along the road
>     leading from St Lo to Lessay on the west coast of the Cotentin peninusla.

Here is an example of the "heavy fighting", excerpted from LETTERS HOME:

          THE 8TH REGIMENT'S ATTACK ON A GERMAN STRONG POINT AT NIGHT

          As a result of the loss of B Battery to a mine during the
          landing, Tommy made some changes in the 29th after the
          capture of Cherbourg. Capt. Lorton S. (Doc) Livingston,
          who had been in the fire control center, was given the
          difficult task of forming a new B Battery. I went to the
          First Battalion of the 8th Infantry Regiment as liaison
          officer, which I joined shortly before it was to make a
          night attack. General Barton wanted to eliminate a
          bothersome German strong point which lay in the
          division's sector. (Note thenear the center of the map
          on the facing page.) The official US Army history
          describes the results as follows:

          "The main obstacle to success was the stream, which was
          difficult to cross. Deciding that it could best be crossed
          during darkness, General Barton had instructed the
          commander of the 8th Infantry to make a surprise move
          during the night of 6 July. By sending two battalions over
          the stream at night, the units would be in position to
          clear the area at daylight, 7 July, thus eradicating a
          potential nuisance to the division that might hold up the
          advance should the division break through to Periers.

          "Though the regimental commander complied with
          instructions, one of his battalions could not cross the
          stream even at night because of enemy fire. The other
          battalion, after having picked its way through the marsh
          during the night and made the crossing, found itself in
          an untenable position at daybreak and was forced to
          withdraw after taking more than a hundred casualties."
          (Martin Blumenson, Breakout and Pursuit, page 231.)

          According to an account I wrote shortly after this battle,
          the atmosphere on the eve of this operation was one of
          improvisation and confusion. Stumbling through trees in
          the dark, we took up a position on the edge of the
          marsh. After an artillery preparation (which I felt was a
          mistake because it would alert the Germans), Companies
          A and B moved into the swamp. They were soon pinned
          down by German machine gun fire, accompanied by
          mortars. Major John H. (Jack) Meyer, the battalion
          commander, ordered Company C to move into the marsh.
          After a bit the commander of this company, Lt. Joseph
          Gude, showed up at the command post and reported that
          his company had scattered.

          By this time, Col. Rodwell had appeared, to see what was
          going on. He said to Gude, "Son, you have to lead your
          men. You have to lead them." Gude replied, "That was
          the trouble, sir. I was leading them. If I had been behind
          them, they wouldn't have been able to run off."

          Col. Rodwell did not comment further, but it was clear he
          was unhappy. It was embarrassing for him to fail on his
          first attack. This was no small matter, since at that time
          officers from generals on down were being relieved
          because they were not getting results.

          During and after the attack, Major Meyer was unhappy
          with me. The forward observers could not see anything in
          the dark and hence would have been unable to direct the
          artillery where to fire. I was unwilling to see these officers
          and their radio operators risk being killed for no purpose
          and told them not to join the companies until daylight.

          Major Meyer complained to Lt. Col. Thomason about this.
          I am not sure what transpired between them, but, after
          hearing my explanation, Tommy left me as liaison officer
          to the battalion.

          The Germans in the strong point subsequently withdrew
          without a fight when the division's advance threatened to
          cut them off. After they left, I visited the site and saw
          that it had been a terrible mistake to ask infantry to
          attack it head on. The Germans were well dug in and
          able to direct deadly fire across the marsh from covered
          dugouts, using cords attached to their exposed machine
          guns.

          There was also evidence that the Germans had left in a
          hurry. The body of a German was lying on the ground,
          beside an improvised stretcher. His head was lying
          several feet away. Nearby, the bodies of American soldiers
          were piled up like cord wood four feet high, with a little
          earth scattered over those on top.

          Lt. Thomas H. Crawford from Company B, in a post
          combat interview which I got from the National Archives,
          told about crossing the marsh the day after the attack.
          He described it as "a pathetic scene." Equipment was
          scattered all over the place. He added that he saw about
          thirty dead in the First Battalion sector. He also talked to
          a wounded man from the 83rd Division, which had failed
          in an earlier attack on the peninsula, who had spent
          three days in the swamp. He survived by eating the
          rations he found on his dead comrades.

          Until I revisited this site in 1992 and wrote this account,
          it was difficult for me to recall that night without tears
          coming to my eyes. I wish I could say that this attack
          was the last needless operation in which the 4th Division
          would be involved, but worse was yet to come after we
          reached Germany.

          END EXCERPT

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Jul 1994 12:37:00 EST
From:    Don Bowden <BOWDEN@MGRP.BGSM.WFU.EDU>
Subject: A-bomb/Smithsonian

        I have never lost any sleep over the morality of dropping the A Bomb
on Japan. Nothing put my thoughts so succinctly as a dinner conversation
many years ago in graduate school. One of a circle of friends was a Japanese
student working on his Ph.D. here in the US. For some reason the conversation
turned to Hiroshima etc. and Hiro's comment was quite simple:"Is there any
doubt that if Japan had the Bomb, they would have used it?" Simple and to the
point. Among other things at the time the bomb was dropped my father was in
transit from Europe to the states for a 30-day leave and subsequent posting
to the invasion of Japan. The book "Tennozoan" (sp?) gives an absolutely
horrific description of the fighting on Okinawa and the thought was that it
would only be worse on the mainland of Japan. I think there is substantial
reason to believe that dropping the bomb saved not only many American, but
almost certainly many, possibly millions, of Japanese lives.
Don Bowden
Winston-Salem, NC

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Jul 1994 13:28:16 -0400
From:    Wendy Slader <wslader@ACAD.BRYANT.EDU>
Subject: Re: A-bomb/Smithsonian

On Wed, 6 Jul 1994, Don Bowden wrote:

>         I have never lost any sleep over the morality of dropping the A Bomb
> on Japan. Nothing put my thoughts so succinctly as a dinner conversation
> many years ago in graduate school. One of a circle of friends was a Japanese
> student working on his Ph.D. here in the US. For some reason the conversation
> turned to Hiroshima etc. and Hiro's comment was quite simple:"Is there any
> doubt that if Japan had the Bomb, they would have used it?" Simple and to the
> point. Among other things at the time the bomb was dropped my father was in
> transit from Europe to the states for a 30-day leave and subsequent posting
> to the invasion of Japan. The book "Tennozoan" (sp?) gives an absolutely
> horrific description of the fighting on Okinawa and the thought was that it
> would only be worse on the mainland of Japan. I think there is substantial
> reason to believe that dropping the bomb saved not only many American, but
> almost certainly many, possibly millions, of Japanese lives.
> Don Bowden
> Winston-Salem, NC
>

Hi.  Just had to interject here after reading above message.  I was not
around during the time the bomb, or bomb(s) as it were, was dropped on
Hiroshima/Nagasaki.  In fact, I was barely around during Vietnam.
However, my Dad and his five brothers were all WW II veterans.  I heard
many stories over the years and have always had an interest in this war
(obviously--that's why I chose this discussion group).  Anyway, I have
also just completed a very enlightening course in WWII history.

I cannot say how I would have felt had I lived through the time of the
bombing of Pearl Harbor, WWII in general and the ultimate dropping of the
A-bomb.  I find that most who did live during that time were not opposed
to the dropping of the bomb and did indeed feel that it was necessary to
ensure a swift end to the war, thus saving hundreds of thousands of
additional American lives.  I can deal with the dropping of the first bomb.
Although I do feel that Harry Truman was something of a zealot in many of
the decisions he made (especially with the subsequent Korean conflict and
Mac Arthur ordeal) perhaps it was "necessary."  But what of the second
bomb on Nagasaki?  Was a second annihilation necessary?  Wouldn't,
perhaps, some additional conventional bombing have finished them off
after Hiroshima--or was the dropping of the second, even more powerful,
plutonium-based bomb more a "guinea pig test" that just happened to have
an underlying "justification" at the time?  Believe me, I'm not your
proverbial militant left-wing bleeding-heart liberal--just trying to make
sense of it.  Any thoughts?    Thanks.     Wendy Slader

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Jul 1994 13:30:49 EST
From:    Roger Coon <COON@IPFWCVAX.BITNET>
Subject: Re: A-bomb/Smithsonian

Wendy,
        I am drawing from memory here so I am open to corrections.
The two bombs that were dropped were all that we had at the time but
by dropping a second so soon after the first, the impression was gained
that this would continue, city by city, until Japan either surrendered
or was destroyed.  I wasn't alive then either but I have never second
guessed the decision to use the bomb in that time and situation.
        Under other circumstances, for example, if Japan had broadcast
a willingness to surrender immediately after Hiroshima, and then, we
had dropped the Nagasaki bomb, I would say that would not have been
justified.  But all of this is fanciful of course.  I agree with those
believe that using both of those bombs saved far more lives than they
cost.
************************************************
Roger (Brad) Coon            "Better to have one
COON@IPFWCVAX.BITNET          freedom too many,
COON@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU    than to have one
                              too few."

Politically incorrect and proud of it.
Niquimictitoc inana Bambi.
************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Jul 1994 14:32:03 -0400
From:    Shane Alan Lieffers <lieffer1@STUDENT.MSU.EDU>
Subject: info is requested

Hi!  I am in the process of subscribing to several war-related lists, as I am a
major war-buff.  However, I have had no luck in locating a list that deals
exclusively with the American Civil War.  I found one - H-CIVWAR - but they
only allow scholars and professional historians to join.  If anyone can help me
out, I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks in advance,

Shane Alan Lieffers

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Jul 1994 14:39:54 -0400
From:    Tom Shirhall <tshirhal@IDA.ORG>
Subject: Re: A-bomb/Smithsonian

Wendy Slater said:

>I can deal with the dropping of the first bomb.
>Although I do feel that Harry Truman was something of a zealot in many of
>the decisions he made (especially with the subsequent Korean conflict and
>Mac Arthur ordeal) perhaps it was "necessary."  But what of the second
>bomb on Nagasaki?  Was a second annihilation necessary?  Wouldn't,
>perhaps, some additional conventional bombing have finished them off
>after Hiroshima--or was the dropping of the second, even more powerful,
>plutonium-based bomb more a "guinea pig test" that just happened to have
>an underlying "justification" at the time?  Believe me, I'm not your
>proverbial militant left-wing bleeding-heart liberal--just trying to make
>sense of it.  Any thoughts?    Thanks.     Wendy Slader

I'm 60, and I remember WWII pretty well. My recollection of information
available later indicated that only two bombs existed, and it would be
several months before any more could be made. They were both prototypes, not
production models. When the first one didn't get the desired results; i.e.,
an immediate surrender, it was decided to drop the second bomb to make it
appear that we had a ready supply. It has been said that the command
structure of the Japanese had been so disrupted that they couldn't respond
rapidly. If so, it was a genuine tragedy. The Emperor spoke, the first time
most Japanese had ever heard his voice, and caused the surrender.

Somewhere there is a science fiction book based on an invasion of the
Japanese homeland.

In any war, there is always enough guilt to go around, but it only takes one
person to start a fight, and you're always better off if you can defend
yourself.

I guess that I don't understand what problem you have with Korea. Truman
didn't start the fight. The North Koreans attacked without warning, and the
U.S. and Korean troops were driven back into the Pusan Perimeter, and barely
held on until troops could be sent from the States. McArthur specifically
disobeyed a direct order from his commander-in-chief and was cashiered, but
allowed to make his famous speach to the Congress. He was not a beloved
leader of WWII to his men. We didn't invade North Korea because Red China
had intervened and a major attack would have meant war with China.

Tom Shirhall
tshirhal@ida.org

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Jul 1994 13:59:41 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: A-bomb/Smithsonian

> additional American lives.  I can deal with the dropping of the first bomb.
> Although I do feel that Harry Truman was something of a zealot in many of
> the decisions he made (especially with the subsequent Korean conflict and
> Mac Arthur ordeal) perhaps it was "necessary."  But what of the second
> bomb on Nagasaki?  Was a second annihilation necessary?  Wouldn't,
> perhaps, some additional conventional bombing have finished them off
> after Hiroshima--or was the dropping of the second, even more powerful,
> plutonium-based bomb more a "guinea pig test" that just happened to have
> an underlying "justification" at the time?  Believe me, I'm not your
> proverbial militant left-wing bleeding-heart liberal--just trying to make
> sense of it.  Any thoughts?    Thanks.     Wendy Slader

The second bomb puts a "finality" on the entire experience.  After the first
bomb, the military leadership still was unwilling to budge.  It took the
Emperor himself, breaking all tradition and shocking the cabinet by taking
the matter into his own hands and ordering the surrender.  This didn't happen
until after the second bomb.

One bomb can always be considered a "fluke."  No one knew how many bombs
the U.S. possessed.  If it dropped one devastating bomb and then continued
with conventional bombing, it might be perceived that the allies possessed
very few of this super-weapon.  By suddenly deciding to go exclusively with
the weapon, after giving adequate warnings regarding its use, the impression
is given that the rain of massive and basically wanton destruction is at the
whim of the enemy.

Ironically, it's all psychological.  The U.S. only possessed two such
weapons, but through its actions proved that the first use was not an
experiment (even though it was) and proved to the Japanese that this weapon
truly works.  Follow this with the impression that the U.S. may, in fact,
have an unlimited supply of bombs and you are faced with a truly black or
white decision.

IMHO, the second bomb was very probably "necessary."

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Jul 1994 15:19:14 CDT
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re[2]: A-bomb/Smithsonian

This is slightly off topic--but wasn;t Truman more the Dove than
MacArthur.  Hindsight is always 20/20, or so we think.  What people miss
when they second guess the dropping of the atomic bombs is the war
weariness and sacrifice that has taken place.  I am sure Truman had
casualty reports flowing across his desk and wanted to stop them.
Probably most of us in his position AT THE TIME would have made the same
decision, and not had a second thought about it.  BTW, did Truman truly
order the dropping of the bomb, or did it happen on his watch and he
takes credit for it--did he truly pick the target and approve the drop,
approve the drop somewhere on Japan, or did he just approve of the
system, and the use was inevitable?

TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Jul 1994 16:20:02 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>
Subject: Re: A-bomb/Smithsonian

On Wed, 6 Jul 1994, Wendy Slader wrote:

> I can deal with the dropping of the first bomb. . . . .  But what of the
second > bomb on Nagasaki?  Was a second annihilation necessary?
Wouldn't, > perhaps, some additional conventional bombing have finished
them off > after Hiroshima--or was the dropping of the second, even more
powerful, > plutonium-based bomb more a "guinea pig test" that just
happened to have > an underlying "justification" at the time?  Believe me,
I'm not your > proverbial militant left-wing bleeding-heart liberal--just
trying to make > sense of it.  Any thoughts?  Thanks.  Wendy Slader >

I doubt that additional bombing was necessary (though we did that too,
with a thousand-plane raid the night before Japan surrendered). Remember
that only 72 hours elapsed. The Japanese literally did not know what had
happened at Hiroshima. They called the police station: no answer. They
called the military barracks: no answer. They finally dispatched an
investigation team which of course could not get into the city because the
tracks were vaporized. I believe, though I am not sure, that the
investigators had not yet made their report when the bomb was dropped on
Nagasaki.

I too used to believe that the Nagasaki bomb was by way of experiment,
until somebody on another newsgroup pointed out that of the 3 bombs
manufactured, that exploded at Alamagordo was plutonium, while that at
Hiroshima was uranium--hence that was the test bomb. We didn't even have
the justification that we wanted to know whether the plutonium bomb
worked, because we already knew that. In my opinion, the Nagasaki bomb was
the most criminal decision ever made by an American president, even while
I not only accept the Hiroshima bomb but regarded it as fully justified in
the context of the time, and probably a life-saver not only for American
troops but Japanese civilians as well, as compared to the carnage of an
amphibious assault.

            - Dan      <dan.ford@unh.edu>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Jul 1994 15:46:56 -0500
From:    Bill Smith <bismith@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Wendy and the A-Bomb

Wendy:

Having made a post earlier on the reasoning of why two bombs and no
warning/test drop, I will only submit two books which I feel are
instructive.  The first is Herbert Feis' work on the close of the war,
and for the life of me right now I can't remember the title.  The other
is Awesome Power by Richard Haynes.

As several individuals have posted earlier today, you will find almost
compete solidarity of thought among the war generation about the
righteousness of the decision.  It is with time and further knowledge
that others question the call.

Sure, we can easily draw into question the morality of the weapon now,
but to do so ignores what the Germans call the zeitgeist, or the spirit
of the time.  The revisionist often feels free to ignore zeitgeist, and
does so at Cleo's peril.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Jul 1994 16:51:07 -0400
From:    "J.M.Ruel" <ad388@DAYTON.WRIGHT.EDU>
Subject: Re: A-bomb/Smithsonian

One thing we must remember the bombs did stop the war. Even with the major
cities of Japan devastated by firestorm bombing the Japanese people were ready
physically and mentally to defend their land from house to house. This would
have resulted in enormous losse on both sides. So the bombs were , in a
strange way a humanitarian tool of war. It stopped it NOW!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Jul 1994 20:33:01 -0500
From:    mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: Re: Aleutians, et al

There was an excellent -- more or less -- Japanese feature
  film about the evacuation of Sitka.

An anti-military library colleague at the Alaska State Library
  refused to get it when we could have.  :-(

The ship models were beautiful -- a la TORA, etc. -- but the
  toy airplanes obviously shooting their spring-launched toy
  *rockets* into the bathtub were ... unimpressive.  :-)

Good, *impassive* acting, of course.  I think Toshiro Mifune
  had the lead role.

Akira, have you seen the film?

Lou Coatney (still?)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 Jul 1994 20:39:02 -0500
From:    mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: Re: E. Front Armour

See TANK VS. TANK by Kenneth Macksey.

Lou Coatney (still)

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 5 Jul 1994 to 6 Jul 1994
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 35 messages totalling 1217 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. The Invasion of Japan
  2. [INF] USAAF 7 JUL 44
  3. INF: USN Chronology 07-07-94
  4. INF: 50 Years Ago - 07-JUL-1944
  5. E. Front Armour (2)
  6. A-bomb/Smithsonian (4)
  7. Conduct in Russia
  8. Richard Bong (10)
  9. KB1MK de WA1KWA
 10. GEN: GENERAL SHORT
 11. GEN: WHAT IF HIROSHIMA HAD NOT ENDED THE WAR?
 12. POL: Uberparteilichkeit
 13. GI mail in Italy
 14. To B(omb) or not to b(omb)
 15. Bob Stevens (3)
 16. Bong revisited (2)
 17. Work in progress
 18. WWII-L Digest?  Possible?
 19. ARC: Battle of the Bulge Green Book at byrd.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 05:11:26 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>
Subject: The Invasion of Japan

Among the few hard facts we have about Japanese preparations for an
American invasion was the conversion of its army and navy aircraft as
"special attack" planes. By June 1945, 8000 planes had actually been
converted for suicide missions against the American fleet, with 2,500
more scheduled for conversion. They ranged from purpose-built "Baka"
piloted bombs to pathetic biplane trainers with a drum of gasoline in the
rear seat.

By way of comparison, the Japanese army and navy went to war in December
1941 with fewer than 2,500 planes in the inventory.

There was gasoline to fuel these planes, pilots to fly them, and
underground hangars in many cases to protect them during the preliminary
bombardment.

"Special Attack" missions got underway in October 1944 against the U.S.
Fleet in the Philippines campaign. With about 1,000 planes available,
Japanese pilots flew 650 suicide sorties and made 174 hits or damaging
near misses on American surface vessels.

For the final defense of the homeland, the Japanese planned to hold the
Special Attack units back until the Americans were actually in the landing
barges in large numbers, and then to expend their 11,000 aircraft in a
10-day period against the fleet, transports, and landing craft. Based on
the Philippines experience, something like 2,000 hits or damaging misses
would have been made.

Note that the Normandy landing in June 1944 was virtually unopposed by
the German air air force.

            - Dan      <dan.ford@unh.edu>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 06:59:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 7 JUL 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
FRIDAY, 7 JULY 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  P-61, Northrop Black Widow

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 20 fighter-bombers hit targets of
opportunity at Okkyin and Namkwin and strafe trucks near Myitkyina; and 4
B-25s attack bridges and railroad tracks at Hopin and Naba.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In the Tungting Lake area of China, B-25s and
fighter-bombers hit Yoyang, Siangtan, Liling, and Yungfengshih, strafe
cavalry forces N of Yuhsien, hit river shipping, troops, and a pontoon bridge
at Siangsiang, attack compounds in the Leiyang area, and bomb storage at
Shihshow; 10 miles (16.1 km) E of Ichang on the Yangtze River P-40s
thoroughly blast a Japanese post; and B-25s and P-51s bomb Tien Ho and White
Cloud Airfields and pound the town of Tsingyun.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Twentieth Air Force): 14 B-29s, operating out of
Chengtu, China during the night of 7/8 Jul, bomb Sasebo, Omura, and Tobata,
Japan (most of the planes hitting the Sasebo area); 3 others attack secondary
and last resort targets at Laoyao and in the Hankow area of China.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 458: 1,129 bombers and
756 fighters are dispatched to attack synthetic oil plants, aircraft assembly
plants and engine works, airfields and an equipment depot, marshalling yards
railway station and railway repair shops in Germany; 37 bombers and 6
fighters are lost:
  1. Of 373 B-24s, 102 hit Lutzkendorf and 64 hit Halle oil plants, 90 hit
Bernburg and 73 hit Aschersleben aircraft plants and 8 hit targets of
opportunity; they claim 39-5-10 Luftwaffe aircraft; 28 B-24s are lost, 1
damaged beyond repair and 126 damaged; 3 airmen are KIA, 11 WIA and 274 MIA.
Escort is provided by 224 P-38s, P-47s and P-51s; they claim 46-1-16
Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 P-38 and 3 P-51s are lost (pilots are MIA).
  2. Of 303 B-17s, 64 hit Bohlen and 51 hit Merseburg oil plants, 67 hit
Kolleda and 32 hit Lutzkendorf Airfields, 22 hit targets of opportunity and
16 hit Gottingen marshalling yard; 2 B-17s are lost and 112 damaged; 3 airmen
are WIA and 20 MIA. Escort is provided by 185 P-38s, P-47s and P-51s; they
claim 9-0-1 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 3-0-1 on the ground; 1 P-47 and
1 P-51 are lost (pilots are MIA).
  3. Of 453 B-17s, 114 hit Leipzig/Taucha, 79 hit Leipzig/Mockau, 35 hit
Leipzig/Heiterblick and 15 hit Leipzig/Abtnaundorf oil plants, 46 hit Leipzig
bearing industry, 35 hit Kolleda Airfield, 19 hit Leipzig Station and 7 hit
Nordhausen; 7 B-17s are lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 152 damaged; 15
airmen are KIA, 5 WIA and 50 MIA. Escort is provided by 247 P-47s and P-51s;
they claim 20-0-2 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 1-0-0 on the ground; 1
P-51 is damaged beyond repair (pilot is WIA).
  Mission 459: 6 of 6 B-17s drop leaflets in France and Belgium during the
night.
  19 B-24s participate in CARPETBAGGER operations during the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, 100+ A-20s and B-26s bomb
rail bridge near Tours, and targets of opportunity in the Lisieux and
Beuzeville areas; 500+ fighters fly escort and area cover, carry out armed
reconnaissance of communication and troop activity, and bomb railroads,
rolling stock, marshalling yards, ammunition dumps, and bridges in frontline
areas and wide areas of W France; HQ 36th Fighter Group moves from
Kingsnorth, England to Brucheville; and the 377th, 378th and 379th Fighter
Squadrons, 362d Fighter Group, move from Headcorn, England to Lignerolles
with P-47s. In England, the 392d Fighter Squadron, 367th Fighter Group, moves
from Stony Cross to Ibsley with P-38s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 560+ bombers attack in Germany
and Yugoslavia; B-17s bomb 2 synthetic oil plants at Blechhammer, Germany;
B-24s also hit Blechhammer and a synthetic oil and coking plant at Odertal,
Germany and Zagreb, Yugoslavia Airfield and marshalling yard; the bombers and
fighter escorts claim 50+ aircraft shot down during fierce battle with 275-
300 fighters mainly in the Vienna-Budapest area; 18 US aircraft are listed as
destroyed and a larger number missing.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy during the night of 6/7
Jul A-20s bomb La Spezia harbor and motor transport in the area, and resume
an attack on fuel supplies during the day; B-26s and B-25s score direct hits
on railway bridges at Reggio Emilia, and over the Fratta River and possible
hits on the Santa Maria di Mugnano bridge and 2 other bridges in the area;
they also hit Collecchio fuel dump, causing many fires and explosions;
fighter-bombers attack Ferrara Airfield, the town of Empoli, and rail lines,
bridges, fuel and ammunition dumps, motor transport, and numerous other
targets in the battle area as US Fifth Army forces complete the clearing of
Rosignano; and a detachment of the 346th Fighter Squadron, 350th Fighter
Group, based at Pomigliano begins operating from Piombino with P-39s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): P-61s carry out interceptor
missions over Guam, Saipan, and Rota Islands, Marianas Islands, during the
night of 6/7 Jul.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: In New Guinea,
B-24s and A-20s bomb Moemi and Nabire Airfields; supply dumps along the Wiske
River are also attacked; a few fighter-bombers and Royal Australian Air Force
(RAAF) aircraft attack barges, gun positions, and troops along the coast in
the Wewak area. B-24s bomb Yap Island, Sorol Atoll radio station, and runway
in Woleai Atoll.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 04:23:41 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 07-07-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
07/07 Fri.  Japanese naval vessels sunk:
             Destroyer USUGUMO, by submarine SKATE (SS-305), Kurile
              Islands area,
              47 d. 43'N., 147 d. 55'E.
             Destroyer, TAMANAMI, by submarine MINGO (SS-261), South
              China Sea,
              13 d. 55'N., 118 d. 30'E.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 07:33:26 -0500
From:    John Davis <JBDML@OSBM6.OSBM.STATE.NC.US>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 07-JUL-1944

On 07-JUL-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The US 79th and 90th Divisions (VIII Corps) are continuing
     their attempts to break through the German defensive line between La
     Haye-du-Puits and Mont-Castre-Forest, but are having to withstand violent
     counter-attacks. Against growing opposition from two SS divisions, the US
     VII Corps is moving slowly along the Carentan-Periers road. The 30th
     Division establishes a bridgehead near St Jean-de-Daye. RAF bombers carry
     out a heavy night bombing raid against Caen. They drop more than 2,500
     tons of bombs, in preparation for the final assault on the city.

Italian Front - The US 34th Division captures Rosignano. The 4th Mountain
     Division (French Expeditionary Corps) takes Val d'Alsa hill.

Marianas - On Saipan, as dawn arrives about 3,000 Japanase (all that is left
     of the Saipan garrison) hurl themselves in a furious assault against the
     American lines in the Tanapag plain. They sweep through one regiment of
     the 127th Infantry Division and the guns of the 3rd Battalion of the 10th
     Marines. Bitter hand-to-hand fighting takes places. Towards noon, an
     American counter-attack drives the Japanese back and they are pursued
     northwards where they are caught and massacred.

New Guinea - On Biak Island, some Japanese are still holding out in the Ibdi
     area and are heavily bombarded.

Burma/China - The Chinese 8th Army attacks Sung Shan but are repulsed by the
     Japanese and receive heavy losses.

Japan - The Japanese islands are the target of a second raid by US B-29
     Superfortresses. The B-29's concentrate their attack on naval
     installations at Sasebo, in Kyushu Island.

Naval Dispatches
----------------
Japanese destroyer USUGUMO sunk by submarine SKATE (SS-305), Kurile Islands
     area.

Japanese destroyer TAMANAMI sunk by submarine MINGO (SS-261), South China sea.

The Homefront
-------------
Circus Officials Arrested - In Hartford, Conn. five officials of the Ringling
     Bros. and Barnum and Bailey Circus have been arrested as a result of the
     fire yesterday that killed 163 people. The five are charged with
     manslaughter. Authorities allege that the management was negligent in
     providing fire protection and that the tent was waterproofed with a
     paraffin-gasoline mixture.

Soldiers In Train Wreck - Thirty-three bodies, including thirty-one soldiers,
     have been recovered from the wreckage of a troop train that wrecked near
     Jellico, Tenn. More than 100 people were injured in the wreck.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  jbd@osbm.state.nc.us
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 08:18:45 -0400
From:    Luis Gonzalez <LUIS@BNK1.BNKST.EDU>
Subject: Re: E. Front Armour

 There's also a book called Tanks of WWII, a think published by Ballentine,
I can't remember the author, (sorry bad memory for names);
Kursk, by Jeoffrey Jukes also published by Ballentine Books
and if you by any chance like strategy games, the ones published
by the Avalon Hill Company on WWII offer great information on
tanks and their armaments and armour capabilities and performance.
Also the magazine The General sometimes has very good  info
on this matter.

Luis

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 08:35:16 EST
From:    Aldo Hubert <HUBERT@PHYSICAL.UNCG.EDU>
Subject: Re: E. Front Armour

Thanks Lou, Louis & Terry for the suggestions!


Aldo_Hubert@UNCG.edu


Aldo M. Hubert
University of North Carolina at Greensboro
Greensboro NC 27412

OBESA CANTAVIT

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 07:53:07 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: A-bomb/Smithsonian

On Wed, 6 Jul 1994 13:59:41 CDT Robert J. Granvin said:
>The second bomb puts a "finality" on the entire experience.  After the first
>bomb, the military leadership still was unwilling to budge.  It took the
>Emperor himself, breaking all tradition and shocking the cabinet by taking
>the matter into his own hands and ordering the surrender.  This didn't happen
>until after the second bomb.

That's not the sense I got the last time I looked at this issue (admittedly,
a *very* long time ago (-: ).  Rather, the "peace faction" had the upper
hand for the first time in a decade & was gradually forging a consensus to
end the war, quite independently of the bombing, or at least, of the second
bombing.  I got the impression that the Japanese would have surrendered in
a month even without Nagasaki.

>Ironically, it's all psychological.  The U.S. only possessed two such
>weapons, but through its actions proved that the first use was not an
>experiment (even though it was) and proved to the Japanese that this weapon
>truly works.  Follow this with the impression that the U.S. may, in fact,
>have an unlimited supply of bombs and you are faced with a truly black or
>white decision.

I believe the US had the plutonium/enriched uranium for 3-5 more bombs which
could have been assembled in short order.  Thereafter, the plants could have
produced the material for a bomb a month or two.  The technology wasn't
"difficult", just unbelievably tedious.

As for psychology, that causes me to scratch my head a little.  After all, the
ones we had to convince weren't in Hiroshima or Nagasaki, and communications
were pretty thoroughly shot up.  It took a while for the cabinet to realize
just what had happened to Hiroshima.  I know there was a serious debate about
what to hit for the first target--some wanted Mt. Fujiyama, for example.  I
think I would have favored Tokyo bay.  A whole heck of a lot of people would
have seen it, including the leadership, and the implied followup threat would
have been unmistakeable.  One argument against such demonstrations was, what
if they didn't work?  Then the Japanese would have a bomb to study.  But of
course--the same is true if the bomb doesn't go off over Hiroshima or Nagasaki.

>IMHO, the second bomb was very probably "necessary."

The whole question has a good many ramifications not yet touched on.  For
example, Uncle Joe Stalin was the Japanese conduit to the west.  Naturally,
he slowed up or stopped relaying messages between both sides just when they
would have been most needed--he was getting ready to attack Manchuria.  Or,
there was always the possibility of blockade.  Japan was starving to death.
Invasion probably wouldn't have been necessary, and the 1,000,000 casualty
figure with it.  (Ah, but if one resorts to blockade, one must also decide
how many women, children, sick, and aged to starve to death, as they
inevitably will, before taking more decisive steps.  In war, there are never
easy answers.)

My own take is that the bombing *probably* was not necessary to end the war
w/o great casualties. . . but that the planners could not have known that
at the time of Hiroshima.  The second bomb was even more probably not
necessary, and there is more than a little suggestion that the urge to
experiment played a big part in the decision to drop it.

There is a coda to this:  the 3rd Honinbo match was being played in Hiroshima
at the time of the bombing.  A go game was in progress, and, well, interrupted
as you can imagine.  It eventually went down in the records as "The Atomic
Bomb game".  I have an account somewhere or another that I'll try to bring
in--the players were very fortunate to escape.

ken koester
maint2@ers.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 09:19:42 EST
From:    Aldo Hubert <HUBERT@PHYSICAL.UNCG.EDU>
Subject: Conduct in Russia

Terry writes:
>
>     No. Manstein was a professional soldier of the highest
> credentials. Had he been shown to have given such an order and
> carried it out, I feel certain that the Russians would have had him
> up on war crimes, and would have found himself sitting in the dock,
> which didn't happen.
>
>     I, personally, have the greatest admiration for his abilities,
> for he showed himself to be the consummate professional. Had he
been
> given control of operations on the Eastern Front from the beginning,
> I feel certain that the outcome would have been different. I think
> that needs to be considered regardless.
>
A day or so ago, John Gillies wrote:

At Manstein's trial, the prosecution introduced in evidence an Order
of the Day, issued by Manstein on November 20, 1941, in which he
reminded each soldier of the 11th Army that he was "not merely a
fighter according to the rules of the art of war, but also the
bearer of a pitiless ideology......therefore the soldier should
understand the necessity for a severe but just revenge on subhuman
Jewry."
Sounds a little more than "professionalism" to me.
Manstein was sentenced to 18 years imprisonment (subsequently
reduced to twelve).


Regarding this discussion of the Conduct in Russia, I happened to run
across the following orders issued by Hitler in Rise & Fall of the third
Reich (William Shirer, of course):

In March of 1941 (obviously before the conflict began), Hitlet is
recorded as commanding that

           the war against Russia will be such that is cannot be conducted
     in a knightly fashion.  This struggle is one of ideologies and racial
     differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented,
     unmerciful and unrelenting harshness.  All officers will have to rid
     themselves of obsolete ideologies.  I know that the necessity for such
     means of waging war is beyond the comprehension of you generals,
      but... I insist absolutely that my orders be executed without
     contridiction.  the commissars are the bearers of ideologies directly
     opposed to National Socialism.  Therefore the comissars will be
      liquidated.  German soldiers guility of breaking international law..will
     be excused.  Russia has not participated in the Hague Convention and
     therefore has no rights under it.

(the Commissar Order has been referenced previosly)


On July 22 Hitler ordered that

         In view of the vast size of the occupied areas in the East, the
     forces available for establishing security will be sufficient only if all
     resistance is punsihed not be leagal prosecution, of the guility, but by
     the spreading od such terror by the occupying forces as is alone
     appropriate to eradicate every inclination to resist amonst the
     population.

I would think commands such as these would mitigate the guilt of any
trasgression, though I know little of what actually happened, and,
further, I think a judgement should be made by peers, military men, not
civilians.

Well, that's my humble  $0.02.









Aldo_Hubert@UNCG.edu


Aldo M. Hubert
University of North Carolina at Greensboro
Greensboro NC 27412

OBESA CANTAVIT

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 09:32:01 -0500
From:    "W.C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <ERCOUPE@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: A-bomb/Smithsonian

It is wonderful to try and second guess these decisions that were
made half a century ago.  But unless we have our finger on the pulse
of the nation at that time, we will be doing nothing more than
second-guessing.

Who can say what the Japanese people would have done on their homeland
in response to an invasion?  Who can say we would have succeeded in
starving them out?  Who would have guessed that Japanese soldiers would
hole up on Pacific Islands for DECADES after the war in obedience to their
perceived duty?

I sincerely doubt that we 'understood' the Japanese any better by the
war's end than we had at the beginning.  Remember that the kamikazes were
a real big threat at the time of the Okinawa invasion, and there was no
reason to believe that the actions of these people did not reflect
the general willingness of an entire population to die en masse for a
principle.  This would have the double effect of making the war appear
to be a lengthy proposition, and the Japanese people to be as unwilling
as ever to consider surrender.  Not a good outlook for the average
American who had grown weary of the war.

While it is true that we should be magnanimous in victory, that victory
was in no way assured until the surrender.  The war was draining the
American people.  Newspaper accounts of the time seem to reflect a general
attitude to just 'get it over with'.  And as is pointed out in WAR WITHOUT
MERCY, there was still no magnanimity felt for the Japanese people.  Remember,
by their own propaganda, every man, woman and child was to be a combatant.

And finally, any Commander in Chief who does not do his best to prosecute
a war to a rapid conclusion with every power at their disposal can
arguably be guilty of dereliction of duty.

The operative word is 'rapid' and in this case, the impetus was clearly
there.  We were not beating our moral breasts over the casualties that
may be suffered by a population for which we had no empathy.

It is the victory that has given us the opportunity to study the moral
perspective, but time has faded the hatred, so the studies may always
be flawed.

Just my thoughts.

Bill
N93774@vms.cis.pitt.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 10:21:21 -0400
From:    Wendy Slader <wslader@ACAD.BRYANT.EDU>
Subject: Re: A-bomb/Smithsonian

To all of you who replied to my questioning the second bombing at Nagasaki:


....and just when I felt so secure in all of my infinite wisdom....
"POP" goes the ego!

Seriously,  I thank all of you for your thoughts, facts, remembrances, etc.
As I stated earlier, I cannot speak for how I may have felt or thought
had I lived through that period.  Many of you who responded WERE living
at the time and felt the "pulse of the era."
I am relatively young and sometimes, unfortunately, I believe that the
history I am taught may be biased--as may opinions in general.  I can't
dictate the right or wrong of history--I just have a passion for it and
want to learn.  I am impressed beyond words at the knowledge and
intelligence of those of you out there.  Thanks for your thoughts and
humble opinions!

Humbly, youthfully, and still-not-totally-convinced-but-open-minded,
Wendy Slader

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 10:32:44 EST
From:    rick robinson <LIBRARY@KNOX-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Richard Bong

I am looking for anyone who can answer a question about USAAF
   fighter ace Richard Bong.

An argument has started here at work and I cannot find any of
   my books on Bong.  Someone here has stated that Bong was
   killed when he was shot down by the Japanese while flying
   a <JET FIGHTER???>.

If my memory serves, didn't he fly P-38's?  And somewhere in
   the back of my mind, I thought he survived the war.

Help!!!


===>>> KARAOKE-- Japanese for tone-deaf drunk with a microphone <<<===

Rick Robinson/KD4GNK(TSG/KyANG retired)
Tape Librarian, DOIM -- Fort Knox, Kentucky  40121-5000
LIBRARY@KNOX-EMH1.ARMY.MIL/ ROBINSR@IGLOU.COM

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 09:44:00 -0500
From:    "Colin Brace (617)726-5085" <BRACEC@A1.MGH.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: KB1MK de WA1KWA

          Sorry for the latness of my reply, In answer to your query, I
          THINK it's Barry Goldwater K7UGA. Pretty sure I remember reading
          about it in the article in QST when he retired from the senate.

          Another "local angle" - interesting (when you can) to see the
          radio shacks of the various WW2 era ships, here in the
          Charlestown Navy Yard we have the Cassion Young for example, and
          if memory serves, this goes for the Massachusetts in Fall River,
          that much of the equipment in there is from the (then) National
          Radio in Malden. Too bad, the restoration of these radio shacks
          would seem to be a good project for some of the local radio
          clubs. The one in the Cassion Young isn't bad, but if I remember
          correctly, the one in the Massachusetts is in pretty bad shape.
          If nothing else, would make a great Field Day QTH or Special
          Events Station. OW.

          73,
          Colin Brace  WA1KWA

          BRACEC@A1.MGH.HARVARD.EDU

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 14:54:06 +0200
From:    John Ausland <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: GEN: GENERAL SHORT

  Oslo, July 7.  Jack McKillop's message about General Short reminds me of a
letter from my father, after he stopped in Hawaii on his way to China in the
summer of 1941 (that is, before the attack on Pearl Harbor).  In brief, he said
"There is too much Saturday night in Hawaii."
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 15:11:13 +0200
From:    John Ausland <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: GEN: WHAT IF HIROSHIMA HAD NOT ENDED THE WAR?

  Oslo, July 7.  I have been reading the messages regarding the destruction of
Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  Since the 4th Division was headed toward the Pacific
for the second phase of the invasion of Japan, I welcomed these events and the
end of the war.  Having survived the fighting in Europe, I figured the odds were
stocked against me if the fighting had continued.
  There is, however, another way to look at this.  The reality is that the bombs
did bring about an end of the war.  Suppose they had not.  Suppose the Japanese
Army had prevailed and Japan had not surrendered at that time.
  Any scenario you write for what would have followed, whether more A-bombs or
invasion, would make pretty unpleasant reading today.
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 11:21:49 -0400
From:    Tom Shirhall <tshirhal@IDA.ORG>
Subject: Re: A-bomb/Smithsonian

>From the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam:

    "The Moving Finger writes, and having writ

    Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit

    Shall lure it back to cancel half a line

    Nor shall all your Tears wash out a word of it".


Tom Shirhall

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 10:45:35 -0400
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: POL: Uberparteilichkeit

        The Sprint 1994 issue of Military History Quarterly has a short
piece on von Rundstedt written by Caleb Carr.  There is one portion that
bears some relevance to the discussion on von Manstein.

        "Lightning war, however, was not the only new philosophy that took
hold of the German officer corps during the interwar years.  Because of the
political extremism that characterized Weimar Germany, von Seeckt [the
architect of Germany's interwar military forces] and his followers came
to believe that the ultimate fate of the nation rested not with any one
of the volatile political parties of the left or the right that were
jockeying for power but with the army itself:  Germany's safety could
be secured only if the army chose to remain separate and aloof from the
politics.  Thus was born the ethic of Uberparteilichkeit -- literally,
the trait of being above political factionalism.  This became the rule
for German officers during the interwar era, though it conflicted
resoundingly with Prussian tradition.

        "It had, after all, been the philosophical godfather of the
Prussian army, Carl von Clausewitz, who had so forcefully declared a
century earlier that war *is* policy, by different means; and certainly
the elder Moltke had carefully trained his General Staff officers to
take a keen interest in extramilitary affairs, particularly politics.
Prussian officers were always highly professional, to be sure; but the
greatness of the nineteenth-century Prussian system lay in the fact that
this was a narrow professionalism.  The Uberparteilichkeit of von Seeckt
and his officers was therefore not a continuation but profound perversion
of Prussian tradition, in which lay not the salvation but the ultimate
destruction of Germany -- and the transformation of the officer corps
into pawns, not masters.

        "No one saw the potential for such a transformation more clearly
than Adolf Hitler.  By appealing to the innate nationalism and traditionalism
of the German military establishment, and by playing up the dangers posed
by his Communist rivals, Hitler was able to convince the officer corps that
his goals and theirs were the same: the restoration of a strong Germany
according to the old imperial boundaries, along with the revival of the
Great General Staff and the rapid expansion of the German armed forces
along the most progressive lines.  As the 1930s passed, the German officer
corps buried its head ever more determinedly in the sand of military
expansion, snidely dismissing the Nazis even as they assured Hitler's
ultimate success.  They overlooked disturbing signs that Hitler was
beginning to exceed even those limits of behavior that could be rationalized
by Uberparteilichkeit -- that he was, in fact, beginning to consider himself
less the army's partner than its master."
--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
  Big Joe: ... And no one is going to be moving that Tiger.
Crap Game: Have you tried to make a deal?
  Big Joe: A deal?  What kind of deal?
Crap Game: A deal deal.  Maybe the guy's a Republican.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 10:52:34 EDT
From:    "Patrick D. Marsden" <marsden@TEXAS.CPI.COM>
Subject: Re: Richard Bong

>
> I am looking for anyone who can answer a question about USAAF
>    fighter ace Richard Bong.
>
> An argument has started here at work and I cannot find any of
>    my books on Bong.  Someone here has stated that Bong was
>    killed when he was shot down by the Japanese while flying
>    a <JET FIGHTER???>.
>
> If my memory serves, didn't he fly P-38's?  And somewhere in
>    the back of my mind, I thought he survived the war.
>
> Help!!!
>

If my memory serves, and thats a big IF, I think Bong was killed
in '46 in California while testing the P-80 jet fighter.  I'll look
for something in print to confirm this.

Patrick,

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 07:48:49 -0700
From:    "Office TH325, Extension 3566" <RIEGSECKER@UPS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Richard Bong

>From:         rick robinson <LIBRARY@KNOX-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
>Subject:      Richard Bong

>
>I am looking for anyone who can answer a question about USAAF
>   fighter ace Richard Bong.
>
>An argument has started here at work and I cannot find any of
>   my books on Bong.  Someone here has stated that Bong was
>   killed when he was shot down by the Japanese while flying
>   a <JET FIGHTER???>.
>

He was killed in a crash of a jet fighter (P-80 Shooting Star), but it
was in Los Angeles and he was not shot down by the Japanese.

>If my memory serves, didn't he fly P-38's?  And somewhere in
>   the back of my mind, I thought he survived the war.
>

He flew P-38's.  He was killed on August 6, 1945.



John Riegsecker
Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
University of Puget Sound

riegsecker@ups.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 10:56:33 EDT
From:    Richard Kaplan <kaplanr@CLP2.CLPGH.ORG>
Subject: GI mail in Italy

This isn't the kind of question I would normally consent to post, but my
department's curiosity has been aroused (normally they're Luddites).

On average, and I expect there to be a wide range of possibilities, how long
did it take a GI to receive and respond to a letter from home.  I didn't speak
to the patron, so I'm establishing certain criteria.

        A. the soldier is in a front line infantry unit in 1944.

        B. the soldier is inclined to write back.

        C. the soldier is healthy (muddy, dirty, fatigued, not hurt).



                                I promise never to post open ended questions
                                like this again.

                                        Richard Kaplan
                                        Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh
                                        Social Sciences Dept.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 10:58:58 EST
From:    rick robinson <LIBRARY@KNOX-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: To B(omb) or not to b(omb)

I have been catching up on my mail after a two week absence and
   notice (now without some amusement) the intense sentiment
   and division that exists regarding our 'moral' right to
   use the atomic bomb(s) on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

I guess it would be fairly accurate to presume that most of us
   were not around then, so we do not (and can not) truely
   grasp nor appreciate the atmosphere that the decision(s)
   were made in.  Regardless, the decision was made, the deed
   (for good or bad) was done.  The results stand and speak
   for themselves.

I can't help but add this as a postscript--  Harry Truman was
   attributed as saying (and I can't remember where I came
   across this) something to the effect when asked if his
   decision to use the A-bomb bothered him

"Did it bother me?  Well, I tell you, if it would save American
   lives, I would do it without batting an eye.  And besides
   that, I have been waiting very patiently for someone to
   apologize for Pearl Harbor!"  (statement is from memory,
   so any error is mine).
.

===>>> Moral Superiority through Superior Firepower!! <<<===

Rick Robinson/KD4GNK(TSG/KyANG retired)
Tape Librarian, DOIM -- Fort Knox, Kentucky  40121-5000
LIBRARY@KNOX-EMH1.ARMY.MIL/ ROBINSR@IGLOU.COM

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 11:03:00 -0400
From:    Ron Babuka <wrb1@CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: Re: Richard Bong

>I am looking for anyone who can answer a question about USAAF
>   fighter ace Richard Bong.
>
>An argument has started here at work and I cannot find any of
>   my books on Bong.  Someone here has stated that Bong was
>   killed when he was shot down by the Japanese while flying
>   a <JET FIGHTER???>.
>
>If my memory serves, didn't he fly P-38's?  And somewhere in
>   the back of my mind, I thought he survived the war.
>


Major Richard I. Bong was killed in an accident while test flying a P-80
Shooting Star jet in August of 1945.  He flew a P-38J in over 200 sorties
and achieved a total of 40 victories.  He was awarded the Congressional
Medal of Honor, the DSC, two Silver Stars, seven DFCs, and 15 Air Medals.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka                                         National Warplane Museum
Cornell University                                 Geneseo, New York
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 10:15:02 CST
From:    "ROBERT ROY(Southern Illinois University)" <CA0032@SIUCVMB.SIU.EDU>
Subject: Richard Bong

I think MAJ. Bong was killed TESTING a Jet Fighter in the states,around
late 1945..He was not killed in combat.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 11:30:57 EST
From:    rick robinson <LIBRARY@KNOX-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Bob Stevens

In going through some of my late father's things recently, I came
across a couple of books-- Bob Steven's "And There I Was" and
"More And There I Was"  (this is kinda amusing since the old
man was a tread-head, not a zoomie, like me).

I was wondering if any one knew if there were any more books
by Stevens out there, or if there are more (by others) in the
same vein?  I have tried the local (and Louisville) bookstores,
but most of them keep directing me to the local comic book
stores (hmmmmmmmm).

Thanks--


===>>> Parachutes??  I thought YOU brought the parachutes! <<<===

Rick Robinson/KD4GNK (TSG/KyANG retired)
Tape Librarian, DOIM -- Fort Knox, Kentucky  40121-5000
LIBRARY@KNOX-EMH1.ARMY.MIL/ ROBINSR@IGLOU.COM

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 10:07:55 -0500
From:    Stephen L Mcfarland <mcfarsl@MAIL.AUBURN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Richard Bong

Yes, Bong flew P-38s to down 40 Japanese aircraft.  No, he was not shot
down by the Japanese while flying a jet fighter, but crashed and died in
August 1945 while testing a prototype aircraft (P-80) in California at Muroc.

On Thu, 7 Jul 1994, rick robinson wrote:

> I am looking for anyone who can answer a question about USAAF
>    fighter ace Richard Bong.
>
> An argument has started here at work and I cannot find any of
>    my books on Bong.  Someone here has stated that Bong was
>    killed when he was shot down by the Japanese while flying
>    a <JET FIGHTER???>.
>
> If my memory serves, didn't he fly P-38's?  And somewhere in
>    the back of my mind, I thought he survived the war.
>
> Help!!!
>
>
> ===>>> KARAOKE-- Japanese for tone-deaf drunk with a microphone <<<===
>
> Rick Robinson/KD4GNK(TSG/KyANG retired)
> Tape Librarian, DOIM -- Fort Knox, Kentucky  40121-5000
> LIBRARY@KNOX-EMH1.ARMY.MIL/ ROBINSR@IGLOU.COM
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 11:31:20 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Richard Bong

> I am looking for anyone who can answer a question about USAAF
>    fighter ace Richard Bong.
>
> An argument has started here at work and I cannot find any of
>    my books on Bong.  Someone here has stated that Bong was
>    killed when he was shot down by the Japanese while flying
>    a <JET FIGHTER???>.
>
> If my memory serves, didn't he fly P-38's?  And somewhere in
>    the back of my mind, I thought he survived the war.
>
> Help!!!

Richard Bong flew P-38s.

He was killed during a test flight in the United States of a new aircraft.
His loss was overshadowed, however, by the dropping of the first atomic
bomb on Japan.  Richard Bong's death became an "inside story" to the
newspapers.  My mind went blank as to whether the test flight was of a
jet aircraft, but I believe it was... Someone will correct me on this,
I'm sure.  :-)

His brother is still alive and has written two books on Dick.  He lives in
Wisconsin.  The P-38 that serves as a gate guardian in his home town is
also being removed and sent to Duluth, MN where the Air National Guard will
restore it back to pristine condition and return it to display.

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 11:52:39 CST
From:    "ROBERT ROY(Southern Illinois University)" <CA0032@SIUCVMB.SIU.EDU>
Subject: Bob Stevens

These books are taken from AIR FORCE mag. of the U.S. Air Force Assoc.
very good cartoons of the Air Force.  I have never heard of a third
volume. I am a member of AFA.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 10:00:52 -800
From:    Jim Curry <kidcurry@BILLINGS.LIB.MT.US>
Subject: Re: Richard Bong

 Richard Bong was killed flying a jet fighter--but not in combat.  The
plane was a Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star,and Bong was then serving as a
test pilot.  I believe Bong's fatal accident occurred in August 1945.
It was very sad, but not uncommon, for an ace to survive years of combat
only to die in some plane crash in the States.
Jim Curry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 12:20:15 -0500
From:    John Lundstrom <jl@CSD4.CSD.UWM.EDU>
Subject: Re: Richard Bong

Major Richard Bong was killed on 6 August 1945 at Muroc Field in California
while testing the Lockheed P-80. His fuel pump failed on take off, and he
crashed before he could parachute from the jet.
BTW his brother Carl Bong has just written a new biography of him. If anyone
is interested, I'll get details as to publisher and price.
                        John B. Lundstrom, Milwaukee Public Museum

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 18:26:34 -0700
From:    Ed Kettler <deradler@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Bob Stevens

AS I recall, there was another volume entitled " and there I was, Flat on
my Back".  You might try some of the aviation stores, like Sporty's Pilot
Shop in Batavia OH, or William Byrd Aviation Books in Torrance, CA.

Ed

Ed Kettler                                       deradler@netcom.com


On Thu, 7 Jul 1994, rick robinson wrote:

> In going through some of my late father's things recently, I came
> across a couple of books-- Bob Steven's "And There I Was" and
> "More And There I Was"  (this is kinda amusing since the old
> man was a tread-head, not a zoomie, like me).
>
> I was wondering if any one knew if there were any more books
> by Stevens out there, or if there are more (by others) in the
> same vein?  I have tried the local (and Louisville) bookstores,
> but most of them keep directing me to the local comic book
> stores (hmmmmmmmm).
>
> Thanks--
>
>
> ===>>> Parachutes??  I thought YOU brought the parachutes! <<<===
>
> Rick Robinson/KD4GNK (TSG/KyANG retired)
> Tape Librarian, DOIM -- Fort Knox, Kentucky  40121-5000
> LIBRARY@KNOX-EMH1.ARMY.MIL/ ROBINSR@IGLOU.COM
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 15:16:42 -0500
From:    "W.C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <ERCOUPE@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Bong revisited

I believe it was in Jablonski's AIRWAR where I read that
Bong was not killed 'testing' the F-80, but was actually
hot-dogging with a low-level barrel roll when the plane
hit the ground.  It would not be a surprise, since Bong
also was one of the folks who 'looped' the Golden Gate
Bridge while at Hamilton Field.

Can anybody verify the cause of the crash?

Bill
N93774@vms.cis.pitt.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 20:41:44 -0500
From:    mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU
Subject: Work in progress

I am currently working on:

     A simple Guadalcanal game I've had for 15 years
       (I call it "Guadalcanal Gazoo.")

     A Battle of Moscow, 1941, game.  (You should see my
       ILLs (InterLibrary Loans) from the Univ. of Ill.!)

     TWO "corps level" Russian Front games.  They have a
       different focus from STURM NACH OSTEN.  One is a
       folio-type successor to old STALINGRAD -- Tell
       George( Phillies)!  :-)
         The other is ... what I've been raving about for
       the past two years.  :-)

     My famous WWII naval miniatures rules.

     Model ships ...  :-)

     LOTS of other stuff!  :-)

This "pre-retirement" could be as profitable as it is fun!

Lou Coatney
626 Western Ave.
Macomb, IL  61455
309/836-1447 (and I am *not* returning long-distance calls,
  anymore!  :-)  )

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 10:14:03 -0400
From:    Walter O'Hara <wohara@CAP.GWU.EDU>
Subject: WWII-L Digest?  Possible?

The subject sez it all.  Is it possible to set digest for WWII-L?  How
does one do it?  Pardon this poor novice...

Walt O'Hara
wohara@cap.gwu.edu
oharaw@netcom.com
oharaw@cpark.bah.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 21:40:58 -0600
From:    JOHN WRIGHT <WRIGHTJD@CNSVAX.UWEC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Richard Bong

Several years ago I met a relative of Major Bong who was at that
writing a book on the Major.  I am soory to say that I do not
know if the book was ever published.  The Major was from
Wisconsin and did in fact survive to return to the states.
His "Kills" were indeed in a P-38, but he was killed in the crash
of one of the early jet fighter aircraft--in California, if memory
serves.  The is an airfield in Wisconsin near Sparta I believe
that was named Bong Field.  Used mosly by reserve and guard units
although there was a lot of staging operations there for Desert
Storm.  For years a fin oil painting of Major Bong with a P-38
hung in the Officers club at Truax Field (now closed) in Madison.
I believe that the painting was moved to the officers club
at Ft McCoy.  I have not been there for several years, but
perhaps someone on the list has been there more recenly and can
comment on whether the painting is still there.

-----------------------------original stuff below----------------
I am looking for anyone who can answer a question about USAAF
   fighter ace Richard Bong.

An argument has started here at work and I cannot find any of
   my books on Bong.  Someone here has stated that Bong was
   killed when he was shot down by the Japanese while flying
   a <JET FIGHTER???>.

If my memory serves, didn't he fly P-38's?  And somewhere in
   the back of my mind, I thought he survived the war.

Help!!!


===>>> KARAOKE-- Japanese for tone-deaf drunk with a microphone <<<===

Rick Robinson/KD4GNK(TSG/KyANG retired)
Tape Librarian, DOIM -- Fort Knox, Kentucky  40121-5000
LIBRARY@KNOX-EMH1.ARMY.MIL/ ROBINSR@IGLOU.COM

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 22:01:08 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: ARC: Battle of the Bulge Green Book at byrd.

The Army "Green Book" The Ardennes: Battle of the Bulge is being uploaded
to byrd.mu.wvnet.edu in directory:
/pub/history/military/wwii/Battle.of.Bulge/Green.Book

23 of the 25 Chapters are there now and the balance should be ready in
a day or two.

Naval hysterian should check out directory
/pub/history/military/USN

where we are storing operational histories of US combatants (and some
of the stranger non-combatants.)

Worth a look as well is
/pub/history/military/civil_war_usa/C.S.N.

where you can find the specs and operational histories of the Confederate
States men-of-war. Look up "Planter", absolutely my favorite!

The USN directory will continue to expand, and the CSN directory will
pick up if the the South rises again ;-).

Larry J

JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Co-Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU (Historical docs)
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 20:05:15 -0700
From:    "Office TH325, Extension 3566" <RIEGSECKER@UPS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bong revisited

>From:         "W.C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <ERCOUPE@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
>Subject:      Bong revisited
>To:           Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <WWII-L@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
>
>I believe it was in Jablonski's AIRWAR where I read that
>Bong was not killed 'testing' the F-80, but was actually
>hot-dogging with a low-level barrel roll when the plane
>hit the ground.  It would not be a surprise, since Bong
>also was one of the folks who 'looped' the Golden Gate
>Bridge while at Hamilton Field.

George Kenny, in "General Kenney Reports", begins the book with that
story.  He also says that Bong was flying down Market Street waving at
the stenographic help.  In addition, a woman in Oakland complained that
he had knocked her washing from the clothsline.

John Riegsecker
Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
University of Puget Sound

riegsecker@ups.edu

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 6 Jul 1994 to 7 Jul 1994
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 8 messages totalling 533 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. INF: USN Chronology 07-08-94
  2. GEN: RESPONSE TIME FOR MAIL
  3. INF: 50 Years Ago - 08-JUL-1944
  4. ADMIN: Introduction to WWII-L
  5. TRV - USN Chronology 07-08-94
  6. HIST (request)
  7. HELP!!
  8. Dining out at the Smithsonian

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Jul 1994 01:24:18 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 07-08-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
07/08 Sat. Cruiser and destroyer task  group (Rear Adm. C. T. Joy) com-
           mences daily bombardment of enemy defenses on Guam,
           Marianas Islands; battleships join the bombardment group
           beginning 14 July.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Jul 1994 14:22:09 +0200
From:    John Ausland <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: GEN: RESPONSE TIME FOR MAIL

  FOR RICHARD KAPLAN

  Oslo, July 8, 1994

  You asked about response time to letters from home.

  I do not know about letters from Italy but can give you a bit of information
about letters from France.  I checked my book LETTERS HOME and found a letter to
my father dated July 31, 1944, in response to a letter dated July 14. I was at
that time artillery liaison officer to an infantry battalion, and this letter
would have been written a week after Operation Cobra and our breakout from the
bridgehead.

  Also one dated March 23, 1945 to my father, which was in response to one from
him dated March 10.  I was at that time in charge of an artillery battalion fire
direction center.  We were at that time in a rest area in France, after a fight
in Germany which carried us almost to the Rhine.

  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Jul 1994 07:47:28 -0500
From:    John Davis <JBDML@OSBM6.OSBM.STATE.NC.US>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 08-JUL-1944

On 08-JUL-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The US 78th Division of the VIII Corps overruns La
     Haye-du-Puits. The VII Corps continues to advance, with great difficulty,
     along the Carentan-Periers road. The XIX Corps, reinforced by newly
     landed 35th Division, is advancing on St Lo. The 8th Division, also newly
     landed, goes into the line between the 79th and 90th Divisions. In the
     British sector, the British I Corps launches its offensive against Caen.
     The attack is being carried on by the 49th and 3rd Divisions and the
     Canadian 3rd Division.

Eastern Front - The 1st Belorussian Front captures Baranovichi, north-east of
     Brest-Litovsk.

Italian Front - After the capture of Rosignano, the US 34th Division of the IV
     Corps speeds up their advance on Leghorn. Volterra is occupied by the
     88th Division. Units of the French Expeditionary Corps are attacking
     towards San Gimignano, west of Poggibonsi, and capture Hill 380, two
     miles north of Highway 68.

Marianas - On Saipan, the Americans advance towards the north of the island.

Guam - A squadron of US carriers and destroyers under the command of RADM C.T.
     Joy begin a series of daily bombardments of Guam.

Burma/China - Five Chinese divisions surround Teng-chung on the Salween river
     front.

China - Chiang Kai-shek has agreed in principle with President Roosevelt's
     request that General Stilwell be given operational control over the
     Chinese army.

The Homefront
-------------
Roosevelt-de Gaulle Talks End - General Charles de Gaulle has held his third
     and final talk with President Roosevelt, but neither will disclose the
     results of these talks. Sources report however that the French are highly
     gratified by the results of the conference.

Navy Half Way To Landing Craft Goal - The Navy says 48,267 landing craft
     aggregating 1,624,162 tons have already been produced in a program
     calling for 100,000 craft.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  jbd@osbm.state.nc.us
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Jul 1994 09:26:05 -0400
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: ADMIN: Introduction to WWII-L

Last Revision: 16 May 1994
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Welcome to WWII-L, a list dedicated to the discussion of the greatest
cataclysm of the Twentieth century (and, hopefully, the last.)  I am Joe
Barone and I'll be listowner until further notice.  I can be reached at
m1b@ssd.ray.com.

        WWII-L will be self-moderated.  This means that each of you will
always try to remember that there is a human being on the other end of the
wire, and the "Golden Rule" is rule number one!

        Our subject is HUGE and not everyone will be interested in everything
that moves over the list.  To ease YOUR burden of sorting the items you wish
to read, I offer the following "flags".  They will go FIRST on the Subject:
line.  (This section will be enforced when traffic gets heavy, otherwise
members may use their discretion on the matter.)

EDU   For discussion of aspects of teaching about the war.
SCI   For discussion of science and technology; may overlap with WEAP.
WEAP  For talk of weapons, usage of weapons, and "My favorite weapon."
POL   Political discussions, such as the effects of the Yalta Conference.
TAC   Tactical and Strategic discussions, "Island hopping vs. Single axis"
REF   References, review, where-to-buy, etc.
INF   Tables of Organization, raw data, chronologies, etc.
DOC   Reproductions of documents, Declarations of War, Speeches, Treaties, etc.
GEN   "Let's find a category for this."
TRV   For you trivia buffs. Try to stump everyone.
VET   For reunions, VA announcements, Legislation affecting veterans.
HOME  For discussions of events on the "Homefront".  To help distinguish
      WHICH homefront we're talking about, use the following format:
      HOME:US for the U.S.A.,
      HOME:GER for Germany, and so forth.
NOST  For nostalgia items, such as trips to battle sites, historical
      recreations, museum information, where to buy badges and hats, etc.
ADMIN For listowner use, to post introduction and related material.
      Responses to these articles are welcome, but only listowner
      should originate an "ADMIN" article.
WANT  For trading, suggestion on stores worth visting, etc.  Please offer to
      send more information via e-mail rather than posting an entire inventory.
MEDIA To review and report TV and other media "events".
NEWS  For reproductions of newspaper, magazine, and other articles from the
      period under discussion.  Present day news items should be post under
      "MEDIA".
ARC   For discussion of on-line resources and materials, such as those avail-
      able via ftp or gopher.  Discussion of the WWII-OLA (On-Line Archives
      should be posted under this flag.)
TROUBLE  Error messages from a site or address. Last chance to contact me
      before I'm forced to delete you! Anyone who knows the member in question
      is urged to contact them and have the problem corrected.

        Some items will overlap, of course, but the main thrust of the item
should be clear.  Try not to ask so many questions in a single post that the
flags become inoperative.  Several short posts are preferable to one long one,
and are easier to answer and quote.  You should change the flag in the subject
line if the thread takes a new direction.  If you reply to a posting which
didn't have a flag, please insert the proper flag.  (This can help categorize
the subject for people who have to download the mail via slow modem, one of
the main reasons for having the flags at all.)

        Threads have been known to mutate so that the Subject: line no longer
gives any indication of the content of the message.  I ask that you check
the Subject: line when replying to a message and change it to something
more appropriate if this is the case.

Since messages may arrive at sites out of order, it's always a good
idea to quote portions of a previous message that you are responding to.
This does not mean that the entire message with headers should be included,
but those lines that are relevant.  It helps if proper attribution (who
said the quoted material) is given.  Also, try to avoid quoting large
tracts of text and simply adding a "Me too!" line without adding
additional information.  A good rule of thumb is not to have more quoted
text than new material.  Of course, content is always more important than
style so these suggestions may not apply.

        Abbreviations are another subject that needs attention.  While many
of us will be comfortable with the most arcane and obscure acronyms and
abbreviations, many of the readers of this list are here to learn more about
the war and will have trouble decyphering your articles if they are packed
with "LAH", "CinCUS", "StuG III", etc.  PLEASE expand these terms at least
once in your post.

        Similarly, since this list is primarily in English, could we please
translate the "foreign" terms?  A long discussion on "Kido Butai" or
"Wacht-am-Rhine" without an explantion of the terms isn't polite if we
exclude part of the list because they have no clue as to the meaning of
the terms.  The converse should also be remembered: English is not the
primary language of many members of the list.  Usenet short-hand should
also be expanded once to avoid redundant traffic explaining what such
abbreviations as BTW mean ("by the way").


        Now we come to the REALLY hard part.

        Some subjects have been beaten to death or evoke strong emotional
responses.  However, I realize that they'll come up from time to time.
If you feel that the following topics must be addressed, ensure that your
wording is precise; consider the responses that it might evoke; and use
the topics flag.  It is not my duty to censor any pertinent topic from this
list, but these topics should be handled carefully.  Failure to do so may
result in "flame wars" which will *not* be tolerated on this list.  The
mailing list suffered through one flame war pertaining to the second topic
below.  It nearly killed the list so I am loath to see if the list can
tolerate another.  Also, in regards to the Holocaust, there is another
mailing-list, HOLOCAUS-L, devoted to the topic so readers should subscribe
to that list for a more thorough discussion of that topic.  The current
list of topics are:

        1. The Holocaust.
        2. Internment of Japanese-Americans in the US.

        Also, while conspiracy theories were all the rage during in the 1970s
and 1980s, they're rather passe now.  Their novelty is gone and there is little
or no evidence to support them.  Occam's razor applies here: don't attribute
to malice the results of ignorance.  Accordingly, the following topics are
discouraged:

        1. Did Roosevelt know about the coming attack on Pearl Harbor and
           intentionally do nothing in order to drag the US into the war?
        2. Did Churchill allow the bombing of Conventry to occur in order
           to protect the secret of Ultra?

        While on the topic of touchy topics and flame wars, there are a
few individuals in the world who delight in posting the most assinine
assertions for the sole purpose of enraging the more serious members of a
group.  These people seem to derive pleasure seeing how much traffic they
can generate.  A subset of this group may actually believe the preposterous
things that they are claiming.  Regardless of such an individual's
motivation, though, if a message angers you, I ask that you not respond
immediately, if at all.  First, you would probably be playing right into
their hands and, secondly, nearly every other sensible person will have
the same response as your own.  I try to stay on top of this list in order
to prevent such flame wars, but propogation delays make it impossible for
me to react instantaneously.  Hopefully, I'll have the wisdom to discern
"flamebait" from an actual desire to debate an unpopular theory.


        One last item, STATE YOUR REFERENCES!  You're in tough company here.
Some of the folks in this list are VERY sharp, and you'll end up with egg on
your face if you haven't done your homework.

        Normally the listserv will want you to subscribe from your own account
rather than having me add you to the list.  This allows the software to confirm
mailing routes as I don't always get your full address in the mail.

        Contact me if listserv gives you any problems and we'll seek a solution.

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You can also get the files by ftp if you have access.  FTP into
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's a tip on getting older messages from the listserver:

Date:         Wed, 16 Sep 1992 18:06:11 CDT
From: DONALD NEWCOMB <NEWCOMB%USMCP6.BITNET@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu>
Subject:      Getting back articles and the database

  One of the "niftiest" features of the listserver is the database
search. This allows the user to search for any subject and print
either an index of the "hits" or the articles themselves. For
instance if you mail the command sequence below to "listserv@ubvm.bitnet"
or "listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu" it will send you an index of all
articles in the archive that deal with weapons (the WEAP: tag).
_
//Job
Database Search DD=Rules
//Rules DD *
sel * in wwii-l where subject contains ("weap:")
index
/*
_
If you change the word "index" to "print" it will return you a copy
of the articles themselves. I think you can start with the listserv
"help" command and find a complete set of instructions  for using the
database. The complete instructions are very complex and should only
be tackled by someone with experience with data searching experience.

Donald R. Newcomb - Univ. of Southern Mississippi - Gulf Park
   <NEWCOMB@USMCP6.BITNET>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


If I haven't suffciently confused you, send me e-mail and I'll finish
the job. :-)  I can be reached at the following address:

Joe Barone, WWII-L Listowner
m1b@ssd.ray.com
W: (401) 842-4054
Always wit' da negative waves, Moriarty!  Always wit' da negative waves!

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Jul 1994 08:27:03 -0700
From:    "Office TH325, Extension 3566" <RIEGSECKER@UPS.EDU>
Subject: TRV - USN Chronology 07-08-94

>From:         "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
>Subject:      INF: USN Chronology 07-08-94
>
>UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
>from:
>//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt
>
>1944
>07/08 Sat. Cruiser and destroyer task  group (Rear Adm. C. T. Joy) com-
>           mences daily bombardment of enemy defenses on Guam,
>           Marianas Islands; battleships join the bombardment group
>           beginning 14 July.
>

Is Adm. C. T. Joy, Admiral Charles Turner Joy?  Most people will remember
destroyer USS Turner Joy (DD 951) named for him from the Gulf of Tonkin
and the Vietnam war.  Turner Joy is now anchored in Bremerton and is
open to the public.  This is only about 12 miles from my home and I've
done the tour.

BTW, thanks for these chronology postings.


John Riegsecker
Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
University of Puget Sound

riegsecker@ups.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Jul 1994 11:22:43 -0400
From:    Warren Thompson <THOMPSON@ACAD.LVC.EDU>
Subject: HIST (request)

From:   ACAD::THOMPSON      8-JUL-1994 11:16:18.51
To:     SMTP%"HOLOCAUS%uicvm.uic.edu@psuvm.psu.edu"
CC:     THOMPSON
Subj:   Request for information

Colleagues out there: Need accurate (and citable) information on why there was
some US sentiment against executing Karl Brandt, Reichs Commissioner for
Health and Sanitation, after his conviction in the "Doctors' Trial" at
Nuremberg, 1946-47 (he was in fact hanged at Landsberg prison in summer,1948)>

-- Warren Thompson

thompson@acad.lvc.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Jul 1994 16:49:48 -0500
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: HELP!!

I am interested in all things Italian during WW2, but am especially seeking
sources on the following... is there anyone out there who can suggest where
to start looking?
        1. any further info on the Italian marines (San Marco Regiment)
               Joe Barone's post on the proposed Malta operation in
                '42 was exactly the type of stuff I'm looking for,
                a comprehensive work on Italian marine ops would be
                very helpful, or individual articles on any other ops
                they participated in...
        2. biographical details of Italian fighter aces, most especially
                Sgt Teresio Martinoli and Lt-Col Duilio Fanali...
                refs in the Squadron/Signal books on the Regia
                Aeronautica were very spotty, I'd like to find where
                they got their info...Giuseppe Santoro's book on the
                RA didn't go into any real detail about the exploits
                of individuals (although there was one anecdote about
                Capt Mario Visentini)...info on any Italian aces beyond
                what was in the Squadron/Signal books would be welcome...
        3. anything good on operations of alpini mountain units in
                Russia 1942-43 (works in Italian are no problem
                providing I can get my hands on it-- I struggle too
                much for Russian sources to be much good if in the
                original language)... also any general history on
                the alpini in WW2
        4. the names of the commanding officers of Italian subs,
                especially the Da Vinci, which I think had the
                highest tonnage of enemy ships sunk... in fact,
                anything dealing with individual Italian sub ops...

I realize some of this may be obscure, but that is why I'm asking...
the level of knowledge on this list seems to be pretty high... I'll
be grateful to do the footwork,  including struggling through texts
in Italian, and have access to a good interlibrary loan program...
so if someone out there can help I'll be ecstatic and/or owe you a
big favor....

        Thanks in advance

        Mike Yaklich (Pitt U.)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 Jul 1994 19:12:47 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>
Subject: Dining out at the Smithsonian

While it is a stretch to call this WWII, here is a hilarious followup to
the Enola Gay excitement.

            - Dan      <dan.ford@unh.edu>

REVIEW & OUTLOOK (Editorial): Understanding Cannibalism
Source: WJ      Date: Jul 08, 1994              Time: 02:02 am

  Americans who want to keep themselves positioned on the leading edge of
multicultural wisdom have a rich opportunity coming up this weekend on TV
in this Sunday's Smithsonian Expedition Special titled "Treehouse People,
Cannibal Justice" (8-9 p.m, Eastern, Arts & Entertainment). The
Smithsonian, for most Americans a name synonymous with the nation's legacy
of achievement, has recently come under the control of thinkers
preoccupied with alternative interpretations of society and history.
  (snip)
  This Sunday's Smithsonian effort, "Treehouse People, Cannibal Justice,"
strives for what might also be called a "reinterpretation" of Western
notions of human sacrifice and other such native customs. On this
informative trip to the home of the Korowai tribe in New Guinea, our guide
is Dr. Paul Taylor, a curator of the Smithsonian's National Museum of
Natural History -- and a more enthusiastic one is hard to imagine.
  The Korowai, we learn, build treehouses that can rise as high as a
six-story building -- which Dr. Taylor describes as "a major architectural
achievement for anyplace in the world." The Korowai are also credited with
paying women equally for supportive help in building, which, Dr. Taylor
happily informs us, "feminists in any country in the world would very much
agree with."
  Though Dr. Taylor fails to mention it, matters of course get somewhat
more ticklish in the equal righ. ts department when it comes to other
features of Korowai life -- notably who gets killed and eaten.
  It appears that the Korowai practice what Dr. Taylor delicately
describes as "the custom" of cannibalism. According to the tribe's
practice of this custom, men are punished for important crimes such as
casting spells and causing deaths, whereas women are killed and eaten for
crimes like stealing bananas or other crops.
  Still, whoever is to be eaten, the method of preparation is the same:
The victim is first tied by the elbows, then brought to a river, encircled
and pierced by tribesmen shooting arrows. The body is carefully cut up
into six pieces -- while those appointed to do the cutting have, we
further learn, "a good time and sing" while they work. When the body is
cooked and eaten down by the riverside, there is, we are assured, nothing
left over; everything is eaten.
  Many things about these people, Dr. Taylor warns, may seem baffling
"until they are seen from within the culture -- like cannibalism." Indeed,
Dr. Taylor explains, cannibalism is not mere violence, it is for the
Korowai a "well-functioning example of how a complete criminal justice
system works." It's hard to imagine a Smithsonian film taking the same
view of, say, the Singapore government's caning of lawbreakers, which
recently provoked so much outraged editorial opinion. Possibly Singapore
would be better off, at least among advanced American thinkers, eating the
criminals instead.
  In terms of public relations, the Korowai could hardly have done better
than to have the Smithsonian's Dr. Taylor on the job, explaining their
complete criminal justice system. We hope it isn't too niggling to note
that in his large-hearted view of this complete justice system, there is
no mention of anything like a trial before a person is condemned to the
cooking pot. At the film's end, Dr. Taylor informs us in tones of
heartfelt regret that we ourselves are the last generation "who can learn
from people like t. his."
  For our part, we consider that the outstanding lesson we can learn from
the Korowai is that it's a bad idea to be a woman caught stealing their
bananas. As for the Smithsonian itself, we hope someone serious is keeping
an eye on the crown jewels of the nation's history, lest the curators melt
them down in a Korowai pot.

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 7 Jul 1994 to 8 Jul 1994
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 12 messages totalling 347 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. INF: USN Chronology 07-09-94
  2. INF: 50 Years Ago - 09-JUL-1944
  3. A-bomb/Smithsonian (3)
  4. Red Cross Records/Conc.Camp
  5. Major Kim (3)
  6. Dining out at the Smithsonian (3)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 9 Jul 1994 04:37:19 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 07-09-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
07/09 Sun. Organized enemy resistance ceases on Saipan, Marianas
Islands.
           Submarine NAUTILUS (SS-168) lands men and supplies on Pandan
           Island off west coast of Mindoro, P. I.
            United States naval vessel sunk:
             Minesweeper SWERVE (AM-121), by mine, Italian area,
              41 d. 31'N., 12 d. 28'E.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 9 Jul 1994 08:54:06 -0500
From:    John Davis <JBDML@OSBM6.OSBM.STATE.NC.US>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 09-JUL-1944

On 09-JUL-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The US VIII Corps is pinned down by difficult terrain and by
     very stiff German resistance, while trying to push on beyond La
     Haye-du-Puits. The 4th and 83rd Divisions (VII Corps) advance towards
     Periers in spite of a violent German barrage. The 9th Division is sent
     into the line east of the river Taute. In the XIX Corps sector, the 39th
     Division continues pushing towards the road linking St Lo and Lessay. The
     US 5th Division lands at Normandy. In the British sector, the Canadian
     3rd Division of the British I Corps enter the suburbs of Caen from the
     west, while the British 1st Division enters from the north, driving out
     the German 12th Panzer SS Division. The Canadians also take the Carpiquet
     Airfield.

Eastern Front - Troops of the 3rd Belorussian Front capture Lida, in the
     central northern sector. The German Army Group North is isolated in the
     Baltic states as a direct result of Hitlers reckless orders.

Italian Front - The US 34th Division is advancing northward beyond Rosignano.
     The 88th Division takes Volterra. On their right, French units are
     advancing on Poggibonsi. The British 8th Army prepares to attack Arezzo.

Marianas - On Saipan, the Marines and Infantry reach Point Marpi, the final
     objective of their advance. Apart from final mopping up actions, Saipan
     is now completely in the hands of the Americans. This is officially
     announced by Vice-Admiral Turner at 4:15 pm. The Saipan campaign has cost
     the Americans 3,400 dead and 13,000 wounded. The Japanese have lost
     almost 30,000 dead. Only about a hundred Japanese have been taken
     prisoner. At Point Marpi, hundreds of civilians, possibly collaborators
     with the Japanese, are found smashed to death at the foot of a high
     cliff.

Naval Dispatches
----------------
US submarine NAUTILUS (SS-168) lands men and supplies on Pandan Isalnd off the
     west coast of Mindora, P.I.

US minesweeper SWERVE (AM-121) sunk by mine, Italian area.

The Homefront
-------------
Wallace Home - Vice President Henry A. Wallace has arrived in Seattle en route
     to Washington from China, where he met with Chiang Kai-shek. In a
     nationwide radio address he predicts an era of properity and peace in the
     Pacific. He says Russia and China will "take the necessary steps to
     promote peace and trade among the nations of the Pacific to the benefit
     of all".

Best Selling Books - "Strange Fruit" by Lillian Smith, "The Razor's Edge" by
     W. Somerset Maugham, "A Tree Grows In Brooklyn" by Betty Smith, "The
     Robe" by Lloyd C. Douglas and "A Bell For Adano" by John Hersey.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  jbd@osbm.state.nc.us
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 9 Jul 1994 10:18:12 -0600
From:    Kenneth Bartel <kbartel@SLCPL.SLCPL.LIB.UT.US>
Subject: Re: A-bomb/Smithsonian

I've been following the discussion on the bombings of Hiroshima and
Nagasaki. I admit I had never thought of the second bombing as being any more
unnecessary then other controversial attacks during the war, such as the
fire bombing of Dresden. However, when we used the second bomb could we
have been trying to send the message to Stalin, as well as Japan, that we had
more of these weapons? I always believed that at the time period of the
bombings, the relationship between Truman and Stalin was deteriorating
rapidly and the 'West' was becoming concerned about Soviet behavior in
Eastern Europe. Could Truman have authorized the second bombing in order
to show the Soviets that the US had the upper hand militarily in the
relationship?

Thanks
Ken Bartel
kbartel@slcpl.slcpl.lib.ut.us

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 9 Jul 1994 10:32:47 -800
From:    Jim Curry <kidcurry@BILLINGS.LIB.MT.US>
Subject: Re: A-bomb/Smithsonian

On Sat, 9 Jul 1994, Kenneth Bartel wrote:

> I've been following the discussion on the bombings of Hiroshima and
> Nagasaki. I admit I had never thought of the second bombing as being any more
> unnecessary then other controversial attacks during the war, such as the
> fire bombing of Dresden. However, when we used the second bomb could we
> have been trying to send the message to Stalin, as well as Japan, that we had
> more of these weapons? I always believed that at the time period of the
> bombings, the relationship between Truman and Stalin was deteriorating
> rapidly and the 'West' was becoming concerned about Soviet behavior in
> Eastern Europe. Could Truman have authorized the second bombing in order
> to show the Soviets that the US had the upper hand militarily in the
> relationship?
>
> Thanks
> Ken Bartel
> kbartel@slcpl.slcpl.lib.ut.us

This theory was very popular during the Vietnam era, when antiwar activists
took a "revisionist" approach to the Cold War,blaming it (and indirectly
the war in Vietnam) on unjustified American hostility to the Soviets. A
historian named Gar Alperovitz wrote a book entitled _Atomic Diplomacy_
(Simon and Schuster, 1965) spelling out in detail the argument that the
use of the atom bombs was really meant to intimidate Stalin rather than
to end the war quickly.  Alperovitz documented this claim by references
to statements in the diaries of Henry Stimson,Secretary of War in 1945,
and postwar writings of James Byrnes, Truman's first Secretary of State.
Outside of New Left circles most scholars discount Alperovitz's argument.
There is not a scrap of evidence for it in anything said or written by
President Truman, as blunt and outspoken as any man who ever held office.
It is easy to exaggerate the speed with which US-USSR relations broke
down;  Truman kept trying to maintain good relations with Stalin for
at least a year after the war ended.

Jim Curry

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 9 Jul 1994 17:07:16 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>
Subject: Re: A-bomb/Smithsonian

> fire bombing of Dresden. However, when we used the second bomb could we
> have been trying to send the message to Stalin, as well as Japan, that we had
> more of these weapons? I always believed that at the time period of the

I'm quite sure that Truman was hoping to impress Stalin. (But why would a
second bomb impress Uncle Joe more than the first, which after all did
much more damage and had several times the psychological effect--still does!)

A couple weeks earlier, Truman was begging Stalin to join the war against
the Japanese. Am I talking about Yalta or Teheran? Anyhow, Truman got the
message about the Alamagordo bomb being successfully set off, and he told
Stalin that the U.S. had a tremendous new weapon. Stalin smiled, as the
story goes. He probably knew more about it than Truman did.

Still, I'm sure that neither Stalin nor Truman nor anyone in the world
except the Hiroshima survivors knew the capabilities of the bomb on
August 7, and it was years before any really understood the long-term
consequences. How about those pictures of Japanese workers cleaning up
the mess with no protection but handkerchiefs over their faces?

            - Dan      <dan.ford@unh.edu>

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 9 Jul 1994 16:09:50 -0500
From:    Anita Louise Sybesma <sybesma@TENET.EDU>
Subject: Red Cross Records/Conc.Camp

After the fall of the Berlin Wall, we read a newspaper article saying
that the Red Cross now had access to the files from the Concentration
Camps from WWII. We wrote the RC, but did not get a response.  Do any of
you know about this? My husbands uncle ,Pieter Sybesma, was killed at
Auswich in March of 1945, just days before liberation.

Any help will be greatly appreciated,
Anita

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 9 Jul 1994 17:27:58 -0400
From:    Emery Ford <eford@DELPHI.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Major Kim

Hi everyone,

Now that the "Great Leader" Kim Il Sung has passed away I am hearing reports
that he served in the Red Army during WWII as a Major.  Can anyone provide
me with additional information and sources?

IMHO a coup has just occurred in Pyongyang, and the son of Kim, the "Dear
Leader", is going south like a low budget sequel. :(

Emery


 __________________________________________________________________
||.From.the.mind.of........>> H. Emery Ford                      ||
||..../^>>.................>> Internet: eford@delphi.umd.edu     ||
||../ //...../^\\/^\\......>> ENEE/Russian Student               ||
||<   __>>./ //\_//\ \\....>> University of Maryland             ||
||..\ \\.< //........\ >>..>>                                    ||
||....\ >>.................>> "The tougher it gets, the cooler   ||
||.........................>> I get." --Richard M. Nixon         ||
||_"more_than_a_character"_>>____________________________________||

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 9 Jul 1994 18:29:25 -0500
From:    John Lundstrom <jl@CSD4.CSD.UWM.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dining out at the Smithsonian

Dan,
        Thanks for this post! I have shared it with friends for a good
laugh, Unfortunately the basic problem of the PC attitude at the Smithsonian
remains. The Enola Gay exhibit script is awful, with very little
understanding of Japanese as opponents and very little based on the reality
of the Pacific War.
        My family and I will be in Washington, DC, from the night of 31 July
to Friday, 5 August. If you are going to be in the neighborhood, please let
me know.
                           Best wishes,   John Lundstrom

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 9 Jul 1994 19:24:01 -0400
From:    Douglas Kornreich <kornreich_d@A1.MSCF.UPENN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Major Kim

from "Terrorism: The North Korean Connection" Bermudez, Joseph S Jr.

        Kim Sung Chu, now known as Kim Il Sung, was born in April 1910, the
eldest son of a farmer named Kim Hung Jin.  He had two younger brothers.
His father took part in the 1918 uprising against the Japanese in Seoul,
was placed in jail, where he eventually died.  Kim and his two brothersfled
to Manchuria, where he attended middle school in Kirin, but did not
graduate.  He left school in 1929 and joined the Communist Party and was
local secretary in Kirin of the Communist Young Man's League in East
Manchuria.  At the time he started his carrer as a guerrilla leader, and
for some time was in the army of Wu I-cheng during the early 1930's.
Korean guerillas were then very active in easrtern Manchuria.  He was
undoubtedly a very able guerilla, and thus came to the attention of the
real Kim Il Sung.  The younger Kim was active in arranging an alliance with
the North Manchuria forces, and in 1936 an allied anti-Japanese force was
established.  The Second and Sixth Corps of this guerilla army appear to to
have been composed of Koreans.  He became commander of the Sixth Corps in
1938 and was very active in guerilla operations until 1939, when he was
driven out by the Japanese and fled to Soviet territory.  Definite
informetion about his stay in the USSR is lacking; ther are unconfirmed
reports that he attended a Soviet military academy, was commissioned as a
captain, and actually took part in the defense of Stalingrad, being
decorated for his service there.
        In August of 1945, Kim Sung Chu returned to North Korea with the
Russians as a captain in the Russian army. He cultivated Cho Man Sik, an
able Korean Nationalist and the most respected non-Communist leader in
North Korea, telling him privately that he, Kim, was a fervent nationalist
and did not believe in some of the Communist plans for Korea.  Taken in,
Cho introduced Kim at a liberation celebration in P'yongyang on 3 October
1945, as Kim Il Sung, describing him as an ardent Korean patriot and
nationalist.  Cho's reputation assured Kim of an enthusiastic reception
from the general public, which did not stop to consider that the real Kim
Il Sung must have been a much older man.
        Kim became immediately popular, and later the same month, with full
Soviet support, obtained leadership of the party from the local North
Korean Communists and from the titular head of the Korean Communist PartyII

The reference cited for this material is:
US Army, _History of the North Korean Army_ HQ,FEC,MIS,G2, 31 July 1952,
90-91

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 9 Jul 1994 20:11:02 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: Major Kim

>
> Hi everyone,
>
> Now that the "Great Leader" Kim Il Sung has passed away I am hearing reports
> that he served in the Red Army during WWII as a Major.  Can anyone provide
> me with additional information and sources?

I know he was an artillery officer.  I've heard that he was either at Leningrad
or Stalingrad.

> IMHO a coup has just occurred in Pyongyang, and the son of Kim, the "Dear
> Leader", is going south like a low budget sequel. :(

I've heard the that "Dear Leader" isn't nearly as popular with some circles in
the DPRK as Rush Limbaugh is the DNC.... :)

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 9 Jul 1994 20:48:43 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dining out at the Smithsonian

>         My family and I will be in Washington, DC, from the night of 31 July
> to Friday, 5 August. If you are going to be in the neighborhood, please let
> me know.

Gee, I don't think so. In 1990 it was so hot & awful here that I went to
Washington figuring it couldn't possibly be any worse.

It was.

Did you notice that they're building 5 new Me 262s?

            - Dan      <dan.ford@unh.edu>

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 9 Jul 1994 20:58:39 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dining out at the Smithsonian

Sorry about that last post, folks. It wasn't meant to go out to the whole
world :-)

            - Dan      <dan.ford@unh.edu>

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 8 Jul 1994 to 9 Jul 1994
***********************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 9 Jul 1994 to 10 Jul 1994
To: Recipients of WWII-L digests <WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Status: O

There are 5 messages totalling 404 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Kim Il Sung -- One source
  2. INF: USN Chronology 07-10-94
  3. INF: 50 Years Ago - 10-JUL-1944
  4. Japan waged war!
  5. <No subject given>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 10 Jul 1994 01:56:56 -0400
From:    Emery Ford <eford@DELPHI.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Kim Il Sung -- One source

Hi again everyone,

I found a source and thought you might enjoy it.  Does anyone
know anything else about Kim's purported role in the battle of
Stalingrad?  Doesn't this passage imply he fought with Chuikov's
Sixty-second Army that held Stalingrad determinedly?

Emery
===================================================================

        Kim Sung Chu, now known as Kim Il Sung, was born in April 1910, the
eldest son of a farmer named Kim Hung Jin.  He had two younger brothers.
His father took part in the 1918 uprising against the Japanese in Seoul,
was placed in jail, where he eventually died.  Kim and his two brothers
fled
to Manchuria, where he attended middle school in Kirin, but did not
graduate.  He left school in 1929 and joined the Communist Party and was
local secretary in Kirin of the Communist Young Man's League in East
Manchuria.  At the time he started his carrer as a guerrilla leader, and
for some time was in the army of Wu I-cheng during the early 1930's.
Korean guerillas were then very active in easrtern Manchuria.  He was
undoubtedly a very able guerilla, and thus came to the attention of the
real Kim Il Sung.  The younger Kim was active in arranging an alliance with
the North Manchuria forces, and in 1936 an allied anti-Japanese force was
established.  The Second and Sixth Corps of this guerilla army appear to to
have been composed of Koreans.  He became commander of the Sixth Corps in
1938 and was very active in guerilla operations until 1939, when he was
driven out by the Japanese and fled to Soviet territory.  Definite
information about his stay in the USSR is lacking; ther are unconfirmed
reports that he attended a Soviet military academy, was commissioned as a
captain, and actually took part in the defense of Stalingrad, being
decorated for his service there.
        In August of 1945, Kim Sung Chu returned to North Korea with the
Russians as a captain in the Russian army. He cultivated Cho Man Sik, an
able Korean Nationalist and the most respected non-Communist leader in
North Korea, telling him privately that he, Kim, was a fervent nationalist
and did not believe in some of the Communist plans for Korea.  Taken in,
Cho introduced Kim at a liberation celebration in P'yongyang on 3 October
1945, as Kim Il Sung, describing him as an ardent Korean patriot and
nationalist.  Cho's reputation assured Kim of an enthusiastic reception
from the general public, which did not stop to consider that the real Kim
Il Sung must have been a much older man.
        Kim became immediately popular, and later the same month, with full
Soviet support, obtained leadership of the party from the local North
Korean Communists and from the titular head of the Korean Communist Party.


The reference cited for this material is:
US Army, _History of the North Korean Army_ HQ,FEC,MIS,G2, 31 July 1952,
90-91

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 10 Jul 1994 01:18:19 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 07-10-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
07/10 Mon. Command designated United States Ports and Bases France
           (Rear Adm. J. Wilkes) is established with headquarters at
Cher-
           bourg, France.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 10 Jul 1994 08:37:15 -0500
From:    John Davis <JBDML@OSBM6.OSBM.STATE.NC.US>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 10-JUL-1944

On 10-JUL-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - Orders are issued by Montgomery for Operation Cobra, the US
     1st Army offensive to penetrate the defenses west of St Lo and to take
     Coutances. The VIII Corps advances south of La Haye-du-Puits. The 4th,
     9th and 83rd Divisions of the VII Corps continue advancing from the west.
     In the British sector, the British VIII Corps begins an offensive
     southwest of Caen in the area between the Odon and Orne rivers. The 43rd
     Division captures Eterville. In the Caen sector, the Canadian II Corps
     goes into action.

Eastern Front - Field-Marshal Model requests that Hitler allow the Army Group
     North withdraw across the Dvina to help with the defensive operations in
     the central sector. Hitler refuses. Army Group Centre has lost almost the
     entire 9th and 4th Armies. The 3rd Belorussian Front, surround Vilna in
     Lithuania.

New Guinea - The Japanese attack in force over the river Driniumor, inflicting
     heavy losses on the US 128th Infantry Regiment, in the Aitape sector.

Burma/China/India - The Chinese continue their very costly efforts to dislodge
     the Japanese from Sung Shan on the Salween river front. In India, the
     British XXXIII Corps drives the Japanese out of the immediate vicinity of
     the Ukhrul rail junction.

The Homefront
-------------
De Gaulle In New York - General Charles de Gaulle has arrived in New York and
     says that he had had "comforting talks" with President Roosevelt. Mayor
     Fiorello H. LaGuardia gives him full recognition, calling him "the symbol
     of Free France".

Half-Year Steel Output A Record - The American Iron and Steel Institute
     reports that steel production in the first six months of 1944 was
     45,061,075 tons.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  jbd@osbm.state.nc.us
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 10 Jul 1994 13:09:23 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>
Subject: Japan waged war!

Yes, it's now official. Don't forget you saw it here first. (Well, maybe
you didn't; I don't know what JN is.)

            - Dan      <dan.ford@unh.edu>

New education minister raps Japan's wartime role
Source: JN      Date: Jul 07, 1994              Time: 04:47 am

  TOKYO, July 7 -- Education Minister Kaoru Yosano said Thursday the
Japanese people should reflect on the fact Japan inflicted damage to
peoples of other nations before and during World War II.
  "I think the war was definitely wrong and it is undoubtedly true that
(Japan) waged war on other nations," Yosano said in an interview with
Kyodo News Service.
  Japan "inflicted extensive human and material losses.  And surely we
must reflect on this," he said.
  Yosano, appointed education minister in the cabinet of Prime Minister
Tomiichi Murayama, declined to answer directly, however, if he thinks
Japan's military engagement was a "war of aggression."
  Last summer, then Prime Minister Morihiro Hosokawa called Japan's
campaign a "war of aggression" and a "mistaken war." Hosokawa made the
comment immediately after taking power last August as head of a coalition
government.
  Yosano, a 55-year-old legislator of the Liberal Democratic Party, is a
grandson of noted poets Tekkan and Akiko Yosano.
  Yosano said he thinks it has been established "by common law" that the
Hinomaru (rising sun) is the Japanese national flag and that Kimigayo (his
majosty's reign) is the national anthem.
  "It is true there are conflicting opinions but effort is needed to
establish these peacefully and properly over time," he said.
  The singing of Kimigayo and the raising of the Hinomaru flag at
graduation ceremonies from elementary schools on up have been encouraged
since fiscal 1992 as ceremonial activities stated in the educational
guidelines.
  Each year, however, a number of students and teachers refuse to sing
Kimigayo and protest the raising of the flag, seeing it as an expression
of revived nationalism and emperor worship.
  On the Education Ministry's school textbook screening system, Yosano
said it is "an established and useful system" although there is a need to
improve the screening pr. ocess.
  The ministry screens the content of history or civic education in
textbooks used in elementary, junior high and senior high schools before
they are distributed to students each spring.

(From DowVision)

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 10 Jul 1994 22:58:19 -0500
From:    "Danny G. Cox" <dcox01@OZARKS.SGCL.LIB.MO.US>
Subject: <No subject given>

  This message is in MIME format.  The first part should be readable text,
  while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

--1915774904-936906553-773899099:#15300
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--1915774904-936906553-773899099:#15300--

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 9 Jul 1994 to 10 Jul 1994
************************************************

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There are 12 messages totalling 865 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. [INF] USAAF 8-10 JUL 44
  2. [INF] USAAF 11 JUL 44
  3. Bong revisited
  4. INF: 50 Years Ago - 11-JUL-1944
  5. ADMIN: Introduction to WWII-L
  6. A-bomb/Smithsonian
  7. WWII-L Digest - 8 Jul 1994 to 9 Jul 1994
  8. GEN: GERMAN AND JAPANESE VIEWS OF WWII
  9. Beginning of the Age of Military Aviation (2)
 10. help
 11. Truman/Atom Bomb

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Jul 1994 06:52:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 8-10 JUL 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
8 - 10 JULY 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  Beaufighter, Bristol
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-7, Consolidated Liberator
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

SATURDAY, 8 JULY 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 30+ A-36s and P-40s hit a bridge
at Myitkyina and support ground forces in the area; 12 B-25s also pound
Myitkyina.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, B-25s and fighter-bombers fly
nearly 100 sorties against targets in the Tungting Lake area; river shipping
is hit hard throughout the whole lake area; trucks, bridges, warehouses,
supply dumps, troop concentrations, Japanese posts, and targets of
opportunity are attacked at Sinshih, Sinyang, Leiyang, Liling, Chuchou,
Puchi, Siangsiang, and Yuhsien; 18 B-24s bomb military area near Canton, and
37 P-40s attack Japanese-held villages and river shipping NW of Canton; 20
Japanese aircraft bomb Suichwan Airfield, rendering it temporarily unusable;
enemy aircraft also damage Kanchou Airfield. In French Indochina 10 P-40s hit
shipping all along the coast while 5 B-25s knock out 2 bridges at Cam Lo.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 460: 1,029 bombers and 714
fighters, in four forces, are dispatched to hit bridges, tunnels, rail
targets and NOBALL (V-weapon) sites in France; only 462 aircraft bomb due to
bad weather; 9 bombers and 1 fighter are lost:
  1. Of 331 B-24s, 14 hit Schore Bridge, 9 hit Welle Bridge, 1 hits Orsel
Airfield and 1 hits a target of opportunity; 20 B-24s are damaged; escort is
provided by 266 P-38s and P-51s; they claim 20-0-19 Luftwaffe aircraft on the
ground; 1 P-51 is lost (pilot is MIA).
  2. Of 304 B-17s, 61 hit Poix Airfield, 49 hit V-1 sites, 37 hit Etaples
Bridge, 13 hit a road junction, 12 hit Abbeville Airfield and 11 hit Etaples
choke point; 4 B-17s are lost, 2 are damaged beyond repair and 90 damaged; 2
airmen are KIA, 7 WIA and 32 MIA. Escort is provided by 36 of 39 P-47s.
  3. Of 130 B-24s, 71 hit V-1 sites, 13 hit St Vallery en Caux Airfield and
11 hit Abbeville railroad junction; 3 B-17s are damaged beyond repair and 27
are damaged.
  4. Of 264 B-17s, 21 hit Jaigle, 20 hit Barenton and 10 hit Chandai rail
junctions, 11 hit Nantes/Gassicourt Bridge, 11 hit Nantes railroad bridge, 9
hit railroad tracks at Yvetot, 11 hit Nogent and 6 hit Rouen marshalling
yards, 24 hit Conches and 11 hit St Andre de l'Eure Airfields and 25 hit
targets of opportunity; 5 B-17s are lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 98
damaged; 4 airmen are KIA, 16 WIA and 51 MIA.
  Forces 3 and 4 are escorted by 286 P-38s, P-47s and P-51s; they claim 0-0-1
Luftwaffe aircraft on the ground.
  86 of 91 P-47s bomb St Andre de l'Eure Airfield without loss.
  Mission 461: 4 of 5 B-17s drop leaflets in France during the night.
  17 B-24s are dispatched on CARPETBAGGER missions.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, about 280 A-20s and B-26s
bomb V-weapon HQ at Chateau-de-Ribeaucourt, numerous strongpoints in the Caen
battle area, rail bridges at Mantes-La-Jolie, Saumur, Nogent-le-Roi, and Caen
and (late in evening) fuel dumps in Rennes and a bridge at Nantes; fighters
escort the bombers and fly armed reconnaissance throughout wide areas of
France, concentrating on the frontline area; targets hit include marshalling
yards, bridges, ammunition and supply dumps, troop concentrations and tanks.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Austria, 520+ B-17s and
B-24s attack targets in the Vienna, Austria area bombing refineries at
Vosendorf and Korneuburg, the airfield at Zwolfaxing, Markersdorf, and
Munchendorf, and marshalling yard and oil storage at Vienna/Floridsdorf, and
the airfield at Veszprem; fighters fly 200+ sorties in support of the bomber
missions which are opposed by 100+ fighters; 14 US aircraft are lost; heavy
bombers and fighters claim 50+ fighters shot down.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy during the night of 7/8
Jul A-20s bomb areas in or near Empoli, Agliana, and Lucca, and hit fuel
dumps the following day; medium bombers pound marshalling yards at Novi
Ligure, Piacenza, Mantua, and Ferrara and tracks near Parma; fighter-bombers
again blast railroads, roads, and bridges N of battleline, which is advancing
N from above Cecina toward Leghorn; the 17th and 35th Troop Carrier
Squadrons, 64th Troop Carrier Group, move from Comiso, Sicily to Ciampino
with C-47s; and the detachment of the 416th Night Fighter Squadron, 62d
Fighter Wing [attached to 6505th Fighter Control Area (Provisional)] moves
from Tre Cancello Landing Strip to Tarquinia with Beaufighters (squadron is
based at Pomigliano).

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): P-47s fly fighter-bomber
operations against troops on Saipan, Pagan, and Tinian Islands, Marianas
Islands. During the night of 7/8 Jul B-24s stage through Eniwetok Atoll and
bomb Truk Atoll; more B-24s follow with another raid during the day.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: In New Guinea,
medium bombers and fighter-bombers hit fuel dumps, barges, villages, and
various other targets at Babo, Fak Fak, Sagan, Kokas, at the mouth of the
Maroe River, along Cape Kariensore, and W of Namber; B-25s, A-20s, fighter-
bombers and a few B-24s attack Wewak, hitting barges, gun positions, and
communication targets.

SUNDAY, 9 JULY 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 60+ A-36s, P-51s, P-47s, and P-40s
support ground forces and hit a bridge in the Myitkyina area, strafe gun
positions at Shwebo and targets along the Irrawaddy River in the Katha area,
and attack targets of opportunity in areas around Loilaw, Hopin, Mohnyin,
Maingna, Anisakan, and Onbauk; 19 B-25s hit storage sheds at Waingmaw and
railroads and bridges at Mohnyin, Naba, and Hopin. In India, HQ 443d Troop
Carrier Group moves from Sookerating to Dinjan.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 40 P-40s and 8 B-25s hit the town
area, trucks, and supply sampans at Shayang and damage tunnel entrances and a
highway bridge at Sinyang. 5 B-25s bomb a power plant and building area at
Tinh Soc, French Indochina.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 462: during a morning
mission 150 B-17s are dispatched to bomb bridges and airfields in France but
cloud cover causes the bombers to hit targets of opportunity; 68 hit
Chalonnes Bridge, 36 hit Chateaudun Airfield, 12 hit Bouchemaine Bridge, 12
hit Chalonnes highway bridge and 12 hit Le Creusot Bridge; 1 B-17 is lost and
10 damaged; 9 airmen are MIA. Escort is provided by 155 P-47s and P-51s; 1
P-47 and 1 P-51 are lost (1 pilot is MIA).
  Mission 463: 104 B-24s and 77 B-17s are dispatched to hit CROSSBOW
(V-weapon) sites in France but encounters poor weather; Only 37 B-24s bomb
V-weapon sites; 12 B-17s hit St Omber Longuenesse Airfield and 3 hit targets
of opportunity; 1 B-24 is lost and 60 damaged; 2 airmen are WIA. Escort is
provided by 158 P-47s and P-51s; they claim 5-0-3 Luftwaffe aircraft.
  90 of 96 P-38s strafe the Moulin-Nevers-Tour area claiming 1-0-1 Luftwaffe
aircraft; 1 P-38 is lost (pilot is MIA).
  Mission 464: During the night, 5 of 6 B-17s drop leaflets in France.
  37 B-24s fly CARPETBAGGER missions during the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, of 250+B-26s and A-20s
dispatched, about 60 bomb targets; bad weather prevents others from bombing;
targets hit are a rail bridge, crossing, overpass and a highway bridge at
Ablis, Orleans, Vendome, and Montfort-sur-Risle; fighters escort IX Bomber
Command bombers, provide area cover over the battle area, and bomb and strafe
gun positions, vehicles, rail cars, bridges, and tanks. In England, the 125th
Liaison Squadron, Ninth Air Force (attached to HQ Command, ETO), moves from
Chedworth to Erlestokes with L-5s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In the Fifteenth's first
Pathfinder-led mission, 222 B-17s and B-24s bomb Xenia and Concordia Vega oil
refineries at Ploesti, Rumania; P-38s and P-51s fly escort; other P-51s sweep
the Ploesti area during the attacks; the bombers and fighters claim
destruction of 14 of the 40-50 opposing fighters; 6 AAF aircraft are shot
down.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, weather greatly curtails
operations; fighter-bombers attack rail lines between Empoli and Montelupo
Fiorentino with good results; other targets include roads, bridges and gun
positions; and the 415th Night Fighter Squadron, 64th Fighter Wing (attached
to 87th Fighter Wing), moves from Valtone to Solonzara, Corsica with
Beaufighters.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): P-47s hit the remnants of
Japanese forces on Saipan and Tinian Islands, as organized resistance on
Saipan ends; Saipan will become a base from which B-29s will bomb Japan.
Makin Island-based B-25s bomb Jaluit Atoll, Marshall Islands.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: In New Guinea,
A-20s and fighter-bombers pound shipping, airfields, troops, and other
targets at Babo, Manokwari, Efman, Biak and various points along the
coastline of Geelvink Bay; B-25s and fighter-bombers sink a 3,000-ton vessel
and several barges around Halmahera Island, Moluccas Islands; dumps at
Marubian, Kairiru, and Niap and a bridge at But are bombed by B-25s, A-20s,
and fighter-bombers; B-24s bomb Namlea Airfield and attack Yap Island and
Woleai Atoll.

MONDAY, 10 JULY 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 24 P-40s and P-51s support ground
forces at Myitkyina; 20+ A-36s P-51s, P-47s, and P-40s hit Mogaung, buildings
and boxcars at Mohnyin, trucks at Sahmaw, a factory at Loiwing, and Punga
pagoda; the railroad supply area at Mohnyin is bombed by 6 B-25s; a
detachment of the 20th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron, 8th Photographic
Reconnaissance Group, begins operating from Myitkyina with P-40s (the
squadron is based at Kisselbari, India).

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 70 P-40s and 6 B-25s hit river
shipping between Siangtan and Siangsiang, between Changsha and Chuchou, and N
of Hengyang; strafe and bomb posts and trucks in the Pingkiang, Tungcheng,
and Tsungyang areas and in the Changsha-Kweilin area; and bomb airfields at
Hankow and Wuchang; the 24th Combat Mapping Squadron, 8th Photographic
Reconnaissance Group, based at Guskhara, sends a detachment to operate from
Liuchow with F-7s; and the detachment of the 491st Bombardment Squadron
(Medium), 341st Bombardment Group (Medium), operating from Kweilin and
Liuchow with B-25s return to base at Yangkai.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 465: 6 of 6 B-17s drop
leaflets in France and the Netherlands during the night.
  12 B-24s fly CARPETBAGGER missions during the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, fighters bomb and strafe
gun positions, bridges, a rail overpass, infantry concentrations, and highway
junctions, and cover the battle area; HQ 71st Fighter Wing arrives at
Ecrammeville from England; and HQ 100th Fighter Wing moves from Criqueville
to St-Pierre-Eglise.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium bombers
successfully hit marshalling yards, railroad bridges, and viaducts in NC
Italy; weather restricts fighter-bombers and fighters but several targets are
hit, including airfield at Modena and scattered gun positions, rail lines,
and roads; HQ 27th Fighter Group and 522d and 523d Fighter Squadrons move
from Voltone to Serragia, Corsica with P-47s; and HQ 64th Troop Carrier Group
and 16th and 18th Troop Carrier Squadrons move from Comiso, Sicily to
Ciampino with C-47s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): P-47s hit troops and gun
positions on Tinian Island. B-24s, staging through Eniwetok Atoll, pound Truk
Atoll during the night of 9/10 Jul and again during the day.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: In New Guinea,
B-24s attack Laha, Namlea, and targets of opportunity in the Boeroe Island,
Sunda Islands-Ceram Island-Ambon Island area; A-20s, fighter-bombers, and a
B-25 hit troops, villages, and barges in the Wewak area; the 64th Bombardment
Squadron (Heavy), 43d Bombardment Group (Heavy), moves from Nadzab to Owi,
Schouten Islands with B-24s; and the 67th Troop Carrier Squadron, 433d
Troop Carrier Group, and 387th Bombardment Squadron (Light), 312th
Bombardment Group (Light), move from Nadzab to Hollandia with C-47s and
A-20s respectively. B-24s bomb airfields and town areas at Yap Island, Gagil-
Tomil Island, Yap Islands and Sorol Atoll. Operations also include small-
scale strikes in the Wakde area and snooper and armed reconnaissance missions
over the Caroline Islands. The 529th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 380th
Bombardment Group (Heavy), moves from Long Strip to Darwin, Australia with
B-24s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Jul 1994 07:01:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 11 JUL 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
TUESDAY, 11 JULY 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  P-61, Northrop Black Widow

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 70+ fighter-bombers pound barracks
at Myitkyina, bridges at Namkwin and Mohnyin, the airfield at Lashio, and
targets of opportunity at several other locations, including Nanyinbya,
Indaw, Katha, Bhamo, and the Anisakan-Shwebo area; and 11 B-25s hit bridges
at Hsenwi.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 28 B-24s bomb a storage base at
Sinshih; 24 P-40s hit river traffic at Hengyang and E of Siangsiang; 22 other
P-40s attack the town of Hengyang, hitting Japanese-occupied buildings and a
bridge; 33 more P-40s attack villages, road traffic, and targets of
opportunity at Leiyang and from Chuchou to Hengyang to Yungfengshih; 3 B-25s
bomb Liling and Yuhsien; 14 P-51s bomb the town of Pakmoi Hu and hit gun
positions at Lupao; 8 B-25s pound railroad yards at Sinyang; 12 B-25s and 14
fighter-bombers bomb Mangshih on the Burma Road and support Chinese ground
forces between Tengchung and Lungling; and the 93d Fighter Squadron, 81st
Fighter Group, moves from Karachi, India to Kwanghan with P-47s.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 466: 1,176 bombers and 795
fighters attack targets in Germany; 20 bombers and 4 fighters are lost:
  1. Of 401 B-17s, 371 hit the Munich marshalling yard, Passing electrical
station and a tire factory and 3 hit targets of opportunity; 1 B-17 is lost,
1 damaged beyond repair and 42 damaged; 3 airmen are KIA, 3 WIA and 10 MIA.
Escort is provide by 209 P-38s, P-47s and P-51s without loss.
  2. Of 340 B-17s, 183 hit the BMW factory at Munich and 106 hit the Munich
marshalling yard; 3 B-17s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 89 damaged; 1
airman is KIA, 2 WIA and 30 MIA. Escort is provided by 166 P-38s, P-47s and
P-51s; 1 P-51 is lost (pilot is MIA).
  3. Of 435 B-24s, 291 hit Munich, 55 hit Munich/Riem Airfield, 29 hit
Augsburg, 8 hit Eppingen and 1 hits a bridge on the Autobahn; 16 B-24s are
lost and 2 damaged beyond repair; 8 airmen are KIA, 14 WIA and 149 MIA.
Escort is provided by 324 P-38s, P-47s and P-51s; they claim 2-0-1 Luftwaffe
aircraft on the ground; 1 P-47 and 2 P-51s are lost (pilots are MIA) and 1
P-51 is damaged beyond repair.
  Mission 467: During the night, 6 of 6 B-17s drop leaflets on France.
  29 of 30 B-24s fly CARPETBAGGER missions during the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, A-20s and B-26s strike
fuel dumps at Foret d'Andaine, Chateau-de-Tertu, Flers, and Foret d'Ecouves;
NOBALL (V-weapon) sites at Chateau d'Helicourt and Chateau d'Ansenne; and a
rail bridge at Bourth; fighters escort the bombers, patrol the battle area,
and attack trains, gun positions, ammunition dumps, and other targets in the
areas around Lessay, Periers, Saint-Lo, Lonrai, Tours and Folligny. In
England, the detachment of the 422d Night Fighter Squadron, 71st Fighter
Wing, operating from Hurn with P-61s returns to base at Scorton.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  AAF, MTO: The 72d Liaison Squadron, AAF, MTO (attached to Seventh Army),
arrives at Santa Maria, Italy from Oran, Algeria with L-5s (first mission is
in Aug 44).

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Bad weather curtails the bomber
effort; the only target attacked is the harbor at Toulon, France, where 87
B-24s hit jetties, oil stores, a nearby telegraph cable factory, barracks,
repair shops, an adjoining marshalling yard, and submarines in drydock.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, weather again hampers
operations; medium bombers attack a marshalling yard at Alessandria, hit an
approach to a railroad bridge at Chiavari, and score near misses on other
bridges; fighter-bombers hit an airfield at Rimini and attack fuel dumps,
rail lines, gun positions, bridges, and targets of opportunity N of the
battleline as the US Fifth Army engages in hard fighting in the Pastina and
Laiatico area; the 5th Combat Mapping Squadron, 3d Photographic Group
(Reconnaissance), moves from Viterbo to Borgo, Corsica with F-5s; and the
526th Fighter Squadron, 86th Fighter Group, moves from Orbetello to Poretta,
Corsica with P-47s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): P-47s pound forces on Tinian and
Pagan Islands. The 28th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, Seventh Air
Force (attached to VII Fighter Command), based at Kipapa Airfield, Territory
of Hawaii, sends a detachment to operate on Saipan Island with F-5s.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: In New Guinea,
B-24s pound airfield at Babo while A-20s hit supply dumps at Kokas; B-25s
bomb airfields at Manokwari, Waren, and Moemi during the night; A-20s, B-25s,
and fighter-bombers support ground forces in the Sarmi-Sawar area and bomb
airfields, shipping, and various occupied areas and installations on
Halmahera Island, in the Schouten Islands, on Boeroe Island, and the Palau
Islands, and in Woleai Atoll; and the 65th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 43d
Bombardment Group (Heavy), moves from Nadzab to Owi, Schouten Islands with
B-24s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Jul 1994 07:09:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: Bong revisited

 >I believe it was in Jablonski's AIRWAR where I read that
 >Bong was not killed 'testing' the F-80, but was actually
 >hot-dogging with a low-level barrel roll when the plane
 >hit the ground.  It would not be a surprise, since Bong
 >also was one of the folks who 'looped' the Golden Gate
 >Bridge while at Hamilton Field.
 >
 >Can anybody verify the cause of the crash?
 >
 >Bill
 >N93774@vms.cis.pitt.edu

I have read that General George Kenney was CG of the Fourth Air Force when
Bong looped the bridge.  He also buzzed around the area and one woman
complained that he blew her laundry off the clothes line.  So as one of
his punishments, Kenney made Bong go out to the woman's house and wash her
clothes.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Jul 1994 07:30:47 -0500
From:    John Davis <JBDML@OSBM6.OSBM.STATE.NC.US>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 11-JUL-1944

On 11-JUL-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The US 1st Army front now stretches from the west coast of the
     Cotentin peninsula to Caumont, about 13 miles east of St Lo. All four
     corps, the VIII, VII, XIX and V, are deployed on the front. Units of
     the VIII Corps make good progress south of La Haye-du-Puits. A
     counter-attack by the German panzers succeed in breaking through the line
     of the 9th Division in the Le-Desert sector. The Germans are driven back
     with a considerable loss of tanks by a combined infantry, artillery and
     air action. The XIX Corps opens an offensive against St Lo with its 30th
     and 35th Division. Units of the V Corps renew their attacks northeast of
     St Lo. In the British sector, the 50th Division of the XXX Corps improves
     upon its positions near Hottot-les-Bagues, 13 miles west of Caen.

Eastern Front - The 2nd Baltic Front begins an offensive on a 90-mile front
     east of Idritsa. The German pocket of resistance east of Minsk is wiped
     out.

Italian Front - Orders are issued for Operation Mallory Major, the destruction
     of bridges over the river Po. The US IV Corps is making a little progress
     northwards. In the British sector, the New Zealand 2nd Division gets
     ready to support the final attack on Arezzo.

New Guinea - On Numfoor Island, the US 158th Infantry and 503rd Parachute
     Regiment begins mopping up the island. In the Aitape sector, the
     Americans withdraw from the river Driniumor line, due to the strong
     Japanese attack.

China - In central China, the Japanese 11th Army renews attacking Hengyang,
     but is repulsed by the Chinese.

The Homefront
-------------
Roosevelt Will Run If Nominated - President Roosevelt tells a Press Conference
     that if he is nominated he will run. He says "If the people command me to
     continue in office, I will ... I have as little right as a soldier to
     leave his position in the line".

French Provisional Government Recognized - President Roosevelt has announced
     that the US recognizes de Gaulle's French Provisional Government as the
     de facto authority for the civil administration of the liberated
     territory in France.

Plan Crash Kills 16 - A twin-engined Army bomber has crashed into a trailer
     camp in South Portland, Maine killing 16 people.

National League Wins All-Star Game - The National League All-Stars have
     defeated the American League team 7-1 before 29,589 fans in Pittsburg.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  jbd@osbm.state.nc.us
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Jul 1994 08:06:42 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: Introduction to WWII-L

The usual good job on the intro message, Joe.  However, didn't you forget
to tell the newbies about the pop quiz? (-:

ken koester
maint2@ers.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Jul 1994 08:02:00 EST
From:    Daniel Malepart <MALEPART@A1.ATMONT.MRGATE.ATOTT2.NRC.CA>
Subject: Re: A-bomb/Smithsonian

From:   NAME: Daniel Malipart
        FUNC: PARI/CPA/Montreal
        TEL: (514) 283-0348                   <MALEPART@A1@ATMONT>
To:     in%"WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU"@nrc@outside

    Dan Ford wrote:

    > A couple weeks earlier, Truman was begging Stalin to join the war
    > against the Japanese. Am I talking about Yalta or Teheran?

    If memory serves right, I think Truman asked Stalin to join the was
    against Japan at the Potsdam Conference in July 1945.  If I remember
    well, Potsdam is a suburb (district?) of Berlin.

    Daniel Malepart, Computer specialist | "Il faut detester la guerre et
    Montreal, Quebec, Canada             | respecter ceux qui l'ont faite."
    malepart@a1.atmont.nrc.ca            | - Antoine de St-Exupery

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Jul 1994 10:04:45 -0500
From:    "WILLIAM L. HUBER - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: WWII-L Digest - 8 Jul 1994 to 9 Jul 1994

> Date:    Sat, 9 Jul 1994 16:09:50 -0500
> >From:    Anita Louise Sybesma <sybesma@TENET.EDU>
> Subject: Red Cross Records/Conc.Camp
>
> After the fall of the Berlin Wall, we read a newspaper article saying
> that the Red Cross now had access to the files from the Concentration
> Camps from WWII. We wrote the RC, but did not get a response.  Do any of
> you know about this? My husbands uncle ,Pieter Sybesma, was killed at
> Auswich in March of 1945, just days before liberation.
>
> Any help will be greatly appreciated,
> Anita

Hi Anita,

You might write to:

International Tracing Service
Grosse Allee 5-9
34444 Arolsen
Germany

or

Comite International de la Croix-Rouge
Agence Centrale de Recherches
19, Avenue de la Paix
CH-1202 Geneve
Switzerland

or

Tbhe Jewish Agency - Jerusalem
Search Bureau for Missing Relatives
PO Box 92
Jerusalem, Israel

or

Zydowski Instytut Historyczny
ul. Tlomackie 3\5
00-090 Warsaw, Poland

These agencies may be able to get you some information.  Good luck
with your search.  Responce times vary so be patient.  They get lots
of correspondence.  Provide them with everything you know so they can
approach the search from different angles.  Full name, date of birth,
place of birth, place of capture, place of death are all very helpful
for them.

Again, best of luck,


Bill Huber
whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Jul 1994 22:57:53 +0200
From:    John Ausland <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: GEN: GERMAN AND JAPANESE VIEWS OF WWII

  Oslo, July 11, 1994

  The July 14 issue of THE NEW YORK REVIEW OF BOOKS carries a review by Gordon
A. Craig of Ian Buruma's THE WAGES OF GUILT: MEMORIES OF WAR IN GERMANY AND
JAPAN.
  Judging by the review, this is a useful book for anyone to read who, like I
am, is interested in (and puzzled by) German and Japanese reactions to the war.
As Craig points out, the Germans have been exposed to considerable information
about the Nazi era.  The Japanese, on the other hand, have only begun to face up
to what happened during the 1930s and 1940s.
  In seeking an explanation for this difference, Craig says Buruma comes up with
nothing better than Ruth Benedict's view that Japanese are more preoccupied with
shame than guilt.  (I have discussed this with an EMAIL contact in Tokyo, and he
supports the Benedict view.)
  The Craig review recites a number of recent cases in both Germany and Japan
which can be cause for concern.
  I ran into one the other day in a report about German Foreign Minister
Kinkel's comments on recent charges that his predecessor, Genscher, had joined
the Nazi youth.  Kinkel said, in effect, that no one should criticize a young
boy for risking his life defending his fatherland.  If Kinkel had said that
Genscher THOUGHT he was defending his fatherland, it would be another matter.
Otherwise, his statement leaves the impression he does not understand that many
of us believe the German Army was defending the Nazi regime.
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Jul 1994 14:19:19 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET>
Subject: Beginning of the Age of Military Aviation

Can anybody tell me if there is a commonly accepted time when it can be
said the age of military aviation began?  Is there a particular event
that is commonly referred to?

Thanks.


  =========================================================================
  | DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
  |                                  | Computers in Business & Education. |
  | Recently returned from my second | Education:  Curriculum development.|
  |   extended stay in Prague.       |    International Education, TEFL.  |
  | Working on second book about     | Central Europe:  Post revolution   |
  |   Prague and new Czech Republic  |    economic, social, political     |
  |   and a book about the B-25      |    problems and opportunities.     |
  |   in WWII.                       | B-25 in WWII.                      |
  | E-Mail:                          | Free lance writing and editing.    |
  |   USA:  BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET    | Stamp collecting.                  |
  =========================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Jul 1994 15:23:14 -0500
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: help

For Bill Huber:
        Sorry to send this out over the list but I deleted your msg
after printing it out and didn't get the part with your e-mail address.
Anyway, thanks for the great lead on the Italian Marines!!

        Gratefully yours

        Mike Yaklich (mfy@cis.pitt.edu)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Jul 1994 16:35:37 EDT
From:    Alex M Spencer <NASAER01@SIVM.SI.EDU>
Subject: Beginning of the Age of Military Aviation

     On March 29, 1794 the French formed the Aerostatic Corp of the Artillery
Service. Charles Coutelle was the Corps first field commander. The new group
consisted of a lieutenant, sub-lieutenant, a sargent major, four non-coms, and
twenty-six soldiers. The balloon, "L'Entreprenant" was used successfully in
the battle of Maubeuge to report the disposition of Austrian and Dutch troops.
The use of the balloon was considered "unsporting." The first true success for
the balloon came during the battle of Fleurus on June 26, 1794. Coutelle kept
the balloon aloft for over ten hours providing up to date field information to
General Morlot. The information provided by Coutelle resulted in a complete
victory for the French over their Austrian opponent.
     Balloons of course did see some success during the American Civil.
During McClellen's Peninsula Campaign, field dispositions provided by the
Union balloons, commanded by Thadeus Lowe, saved the Union Army twice from
being destroyed.
     The balloon also recieved recognition during the siege of Paris,
transporting people and messages out of the city.
     The first heavier than aircraft to be purchased for the military was the
Wright 1909 Military Fligher.  U.S. Signal Corps Specification Number 486
issued on December 23, 1907 called for a aircraft that could fly at 40 m.p.h.,
carry two passengers with a combined weight of 350 lbs., and travel at least
125 miles. The Wright brothers delivered the aircraft to the Signal Corps
and made the first test flight on September 3, 1908 at Fort Myer, VA. During a
test flight on September 17, 1908 the aircraft crashed injuring Orville Wright
and killing Lt. Thomas O. Selfridge.
     The Wrights returned to Fort Myer in June of 1909 with a modified
aircraft. Lt. Frank Lahm and Lt. Benjamin Foulois were the first passengers
in the new aircraft.  Flight testing continued in College Park, MD.  One of the
pilots trained by the Wrights was a young Lt. H. H. Arnold.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 Jul 1994 20:36:50 -0500
From:    "Danny G. Cox" <dcox01@OZARKS.SGCL.LIB.MO.US>
Subject: Truman/Atom Bomb

Yesterday I UNINTENTIONALY posted a message to this list in the MIME
form.  Please accept my apology for any inconvenience this may have caused.
I would like to now post my original message.

While we're theorizing why we dropped the bombs, this is what Harry Truman
said about it. Taken from "Where The Buck Stops : the Private and
Personal Writings of Harry S. Truman" by Harry S. Truman; edited by
Margaret Truman, published by Warner Communications Co., 1989.  Following
his request, it was not published until after he and his wife, Bess were
both deceased.

--If I live to be a hundred years old, I'll never forget the day that I
was first told about the atomic bomb.  It was about 7:30 P.M. on the
evening of April 12, 1945, just hours after Franklin Roosevelt had died
at 3:35 P.M., and no more than half an hour after I was sworn in as
president at 7:09 P.M.  Henry L. Stimson, who was Roosevelt's secretary
of war and then mine, took me aside and reminded me that Roosevelt had
authorized the development of a sort of superbomb and that that bomb was
almost ready.  I was still stunned by Roosevelt's death and by the fact
that I was now president, and I didn't think much more about it at the
time.  But then, on April 26, Stimson asked for a meeting in my office,
at which he was joined by Major General Leslie Groves, who was in charge
of the operation that was developing the bomb, the Manhattan Project.
The meeting was so secret that Groves came into the White House by the
back door.  And at the meeting, Stimson handed me a memorandum that said,
"Within four months we shall in all probability have completed the most
terrible weapon ever known in human history, one bomb which could destroy
a whole city."

Stimson said very gravely that he didn't know whether we could or should
use the bomb because he was afraid that it was so powerful that it could
end up destroying the whole world.  I felt the same fear as he and Groves
continued to talk about it , and when I read Groves's twenty-four-page
report.  The report said that the first bomb would probably be ready by
July and have the strength of about five hundred tons of TNT, and even
more frighteningly, it went on to say that a second bomb would probably
be ready by August and have the strength of as much as twelve hundred
tons of TNT.  We weren't aware then that that was just the tip of the
iceberg.  That second bomb turned out to have the power of twenty
thousand tons of TNT, and the hydrogen bomb that eventually followed it
had the explosive power of twenty million tons of TNT.

Stimson's memo suggested the formation of a committee to assist me in
deciding whether or not to use the bomb on Japan, and I agreed
completely.  The committee, which we called the Interim Committee, was
formed at once and consisted of Stimson as chairman, James F. Byrnes, who
later became my secretary of state, as my representative on the
committee, James B Conant, who was the president of Harvard, Karl T
Compton, who was the president of the Massachusetts Institute of
Technology, and Vannevar Bush, who was the head of our Office of
Scientific Research and Development.  The Interim Committee in turn
called in, for advice and information, the scientists who developed the
bomb: Arthur H Compton, who was Karl Compton's brother, Enrico Fermi,
Ernest O. Lawrence, and J. Robert Oppenheimer.

Then, on May 8, my sixty-first birthday, the Germans surrendered, and I
had to remind our country that the war was only half over, that we still
had to face the war with Japan.  The winning of that war, we all knew,
might even be more difficult to accomplish, because the Japanese were
self-proclaimed fanatic warriors who made it all too clear that they
preferred death to defeat in battle.  Just a month before, after our
soldiers and Marines landed on Okinawa, the Japanese lost 100,000 men out
of the 120,000 in their garrison, and yet, though they were defeated
without any question in the world, thousands more Japanese soldiers fell
on their own grenades and died rather than surrender.

Nevertheless, I pleaded with the Japanese in my speech announcing
Germany's surrender, begging them to surrender, too, but was not too
surprised when they refused.  And on June 18, I met with the Joint Chiefs
of Staff to discuss what I hoped would be our final push against the
Japanese.  We still hadn't decided whether or not to use the atomic bomb,
and the chiefs of staff suggested that we plan an attack on Kyushu, the
Japanese island on their extreme west, around the beginning of November,
and follow up with an attack on the more important island of Honshu.  But
the statistics that the generals gave me were as frightening as the news
of the big bomb.  The chiefs of staff estimated that the Japanese still
had five thousand attack planes, seventeen garrisons on the island of
Kyushu alone, and a total of more than two million men on all of the
islands of Japan.  General Marshall then estimated that, since the
Japanese would unquestionably fight even more fiercely than ever on their
own homeland, we would probably lose a quarter of a million men and
possibly as many as a half million in taking the two islands.  I could
not bear this thought, and it led to the decision to use the atomic bomb.

We talked first about blockading Japan and trying to blast them into
surrender with conventional weaponry; but Marshall and others made it
clear that this would never work, pointing out that we'd hit Germany in
this way and they hadn't surrendered until we got troops into Germany
itself.  Another general also pointed out that Germany's munitions
industries were more or less centralized and that our constant bombings
of these facilities never made them quit, and Japan's industries were
much more spread apart and harder to hit.  Then, when we finally talked
about the atomic bomb, on July 21, coming to the awful conclusion that it
would probably be the only way the Japanese might be made to surrender
quickly, we talked first about hitting some isolated area, some
low-population area where there would not be too many casualties but
where the Japanese could see the power of the new weapon.  Reluctantly, we
decided against that as well, feeling that that just wouldn't be enough
to convince the fanatic Japanese.  And we finally selected four possible
target areas, all heavy military-manufacturing areas: Hiroshima, Kokura,
Nagasaki, and Niigata.

I know the world will never forget that the first bomb was dropped on
Hiroshima on August 5, at 7:15 P.M. Washington time, and the second on
Nagasaki on August 9.  One more plea for surrender had been made to the
Japanese on July 29, and was rejected immediately.  Then I gave the final
order, saying I had no qualms "if millions of lives could be saved."  I meant
both American and Japanese lives.

The Japanese surrendered five days after the bomb was dropped on
Nagasaki, and a number of major Japanese military men and diplomats later
confirmed publicly that there would have been no quick surrender without it.
For this reason, I made what I believed to be the only possible decision.
I said something to this effect in a letter to my sister, Mary: "It was a
terrible decision.  But I made it.  And I made it to save 250,000 boys
from the United States, and I'd make it again under similar circumstances."
I said the same thing at somewhat greater length in a speech at a university
in 1965:

"It was a question of saving hundreds of thousands of American lives. . .
You don't feel normal when you have to plan hundreds of thousands of . . .
deaths of American boys who are alive and joking and having fun while
you're doing your planning. You break your heart and your head trying to
figure out a way to save one life. . . The name given to our invasion
plan was Olympic, but I saw nothing godly about the killing of all the people
that would be necessary to make that invasion.  The casualty estimates
called for seven hundred and fifty thousand killed, five hundred thousand
maimed for life. . . I couldn't worry about what history would say about
my personal morality.  I made the only decision I ever knew how to make.
I did what I thought was right."

I still think that. But God knows it underlines the need for an
organization like the United Nations to prevent another and probably final
world war.


+==================================+
|   DAN COX                        |
|   REPUBLIC, MO                   |
|   dcox01@ozarks.sgcl.lib.mo.us   |
+==================================+

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 10 Jul 1994 to 11 Jul 1994
*************************************************

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Status: O

There are 28 messages totalling 1166 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. [INF] USAAF 12 JUL 44
  2. INF: 50 Years Ago - 12-JUL-1944
  3. GEN: TRUMAN AND THE ATOM BOMB
  4. Beginning of the Age of Military Aviation
  5. Cousteau show (2)
  6. Truman/Atom Bomb (12)
  7. GEN: JAPANESE AND GERMANS VIEWS OF WWII (2)
  8. More on: the Nagasaki bomb (3)
  9. Malaria Remedy (2)
 10. Media: CBS Reports
 11. ADMIN: Truman/Atom Bomb
 12. 2nd A-bomb decision

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 06:41:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 12 JUL 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
WEDNESDAY, 12 JULY 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  Spitfire, Vickers Supermarine

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 44 P-40s support ground forces in
the Myitkyina area; 28 P-51s and P-47s hit bridge and other targets in Hopin,
bomb a Maingna pagoda, and hit the Alanbo and Tagwin areas; and 13 B-25s bomb
bridges at Mongyin and hit targets of opportunity in the Myitkyina area. In
India, the 9th Combat Cargo Squadron, 3d Combat Cargo Group, moves from
Sylhet to Moran with C-47s.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 60+ P-40s hit the towns of Liling
and Yuhsien, river shipping at Hengyang, troop concentrations at Leiyang and
near Yuhsien, the airfield at Siangtan, and fuel dumps NW of Changsha; 34
P-51s bomb Tsingyun and pound Japanese concentrations at Lienchiangkou; 11
P-40s bomb railroad yards at Yuncheng and hit a radio station N of Tungkuan
with rocket fire; 12 B-25s bomb Tengchung and 15 P-40s bomb and strafe
storage areas, villages, troop areas, and general targets of opportunity in
the Lungling and Mangshih areas.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 468: 131 B-24s, escorted
by by 144 Royal Air Force (RAF) Spitfires, are dispatched to bomb 10 CROSSBOW
(V-weapon) sites in the Rouen area but abort because of a thick blanket of
low cloud over the target area; no losses.
  Mission 469: 1,271 bombers and 803 fighters are dispatched to bomb Munich,
Germany; 1,124 bombers bomb the city of Munich, 16 hit Enstingen and 10 hit
targets of opportunity; 24 bombers are lost, 4 are damaged beyond repair and
297 are damaged; 2 airmen are KIA, 7 WIA and 216 MIA. Escort is provided by
717 P-38s, P-47s and P-51s; 1 P-38 is damaged beyond repair (pilot is WIA).
  Mission 470: During the night, 6 of 6 B-17s drop leaflets in France.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, 300+ A-20s and B-26s fly
morning and afternoon missions against fuel dumps at Foret d'Andaine and
Foret d'Ecouves, military concentrations at Foret de Cinglais, rail bridges
at Merey, Cinq Mars-la-Pile, Saumur, Nantes, and Nogent-le-Roi, and other
rail and road targets; fighters furnish escort, cover the battle area, and
fly armed reconnaissance over wide areas, attacking rail lines S and W of
Rambouillet, bridges and fuel dump in the Nantes vicinity, trains and
military transport at Vitry-le-Francois, and grounded aircraft S of
Chateaubriant, bridges at Craon, Le Mans, Pontorson, Mayenne, S of Rennes, N
of Angers, and Tours, rail traffic S of Fougeres, and infantry and artillery
positions near Periers.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 420+ B-24s attack targets in SE
France, scoring numerous hits on Nimes and Miramas marshalling yards and
cutting rail lines at the Theoule-sur-Mer bridge and Var River bridge in
Provence; around 50 enemy fighters oppose the missions; the bombers and
escorting fighters claim 14 shot down; 7 AAF aircraft are lost.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, A-20s bomb scattered
motor transport in the Florence-Leghorn area during the night of 11/12 Jul;
medium bombers begin Operation MALLORY MAJOR against road and rail bridges
over the Po River during the day; A-20s continue attacking ammunition
supplies; fighter-bombers hit barges and small boats on the Arno River and
attack roads, ammunition dumps, gun positions, tracks, vehicles, and a number
of other targets in that general area N of the battleline; HQ 86th Fighter
Group and the 525th and 527th Fighter Squadrons move from Orbetello to
Poretta, Corsica with P-47s; and the 86th Bombardment Squadron (Light), 47th
Bombardment Group (Light), moves from Ombrone Airfield to Poretta, Corsica
with A-20s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): During the night of 11/12 Jul
B-24s stage through Eniwetok Atoll to bomb Truk Atoll; during the day B-24s
hit Truk Atoll again. P-47s on Saipan Island continue to hit Tinian Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: In New Guinea,
B-24s hit Manokwari Airfield; weather curtails further operations in the
Geelvink Bay area; A-20s, B-25s, and fighter-bombers again hit troop
concentrations and barges in the Wewak area; the 386th Bombardment Squadron
(Light), 312th Bombardment Group (Light), moves from Nadzab to Hollandia with
A-20s; and the 432d Fighter Squadron, 475th Fighter Group, moves from
Hollandia to Biak Island with P-38s. Smaller strikes by B-24s and B-25s are
flown against the airfield at Laha on Amboina Island, Celebes Islands; Dili
on Timor Island; and on Koer Island, New Guinea. B-24s pound Yap Island.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 07:45:32 -0500
From:    John Davis <JBDML@OSBM6.OSBM.STATE.NC.US>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 12-JUL-1944

On 12-JUL-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The US VIII Corps is making very good progress southwards
     towards the Ay and Seves rivers. The VII is running into difficulty
     however, along the Carentan-Periers road. The XIX Corps push towards St
     Lo continues at a slower pace because the 39th Division is facing strong
     resistance in the Pont-Hebert sector. The 116th Regiment of the 29th
     Division is also facing strong resistance west of Pont-Hebert. The
     Americans are within two miles of St Lo. The 101st Airborne is moved back
     to England for rest and training of new recruits.

Eastern Front - The Russian offensive is growing stronger in scale and
     intensity. The 2nd Baltic Front launches a series of attacks south of
     Lake Peipus, between Nevel and Ostrov and capture Idrica.

Italian Front - The US IV Corps takes Castiglioncello. The 34th Division runs
     into strong resistance, while the 88th Division takes Laiatico, assisted
     by strong artillery fire. A major series of Allied air attacks against
     the Po bridges begin (operation Mallory Major).

New Guinea - In the Aitape sector, the Americans regroup after withdrawing
     from the Driniumor river area.

Burma/China - The Americans and Chinese launch an attack in force against
     Myitkyina but are repulsed. They are assisted in their attack by strong
     air support, but some of the aircraft bomb their own troops through a
     communication error. On the Salween river front, the Japanese garrison at
     Sung Shan continue to hold against attacks by two Chinese divisions. The
     Chinese suspend their offensive against the garrison.

The Homefront
-------------
Population Shifts - The Census Bureau reports a population increase from
     131,699,275 in 1940 to 133,942,410 in 1943. Twenty-five states and the
     District of Columbia show gains in population. Western and southern
     states gained 4,000,000; while the northeast and north-central areas lost
     2,000,000 due to wartime migrations.

Army Nurses Get Officer Rank - President Roosevelt has issed an executive
     order providing for the commissioning of all Army nurses as actual Army
     officers, giving them the full authority of their officer rank.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  jbd@osbm.state.nc.us
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 14:28:54 +0200
From:    John Ausland <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: GEN: TRUMAN AND THE ATOM BOMB

  Oslo, July 12.
  FOR DAN COX
  Many thanks for the upload of the excerpt from the Truman book.  While many of
us will accept his explanation of why he authorized the bombing of Hiroshima and
Nagasaki, inevitably some will not, and the debate will go on.
  I would expect this discussion to reach a peak next year on the anniversary of
the dropping of the bomb on Hiroshima.
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 08:28:11 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beginning of the Age of Military Aviation

How about observation balloons in the Civil War?

How about the Russo-Japanese war?

How about when Hap Arnold got his driver's license on a Wright Flyer?
(Was he #1?)

            - Dan      <dan.ford@unh.edu>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 08:35:59 -0500
From:    "W.C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <ERCOUPE@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Cousteau show

For those interested:

This weeks presentation of COUSTEAU'S REDISCOVERY OF THE WORLD has
him diving on the Japanese ships, visiting a sunken, intact B-17
and visiting Yammamoto's crash site in and around Papua, New Guniea.

There is some good footage of the sunken plane.

It airs again Saturday afternoon.  Check your listings.

Bill
N93774@vms.cis.pitt.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 08:41:43 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Truman/Atom Bomb

> Yesterday I UNINTENTIONALY posted a message to this list in the MIME
> form.  Please accept my apology for any inconvenience this may have caused.

Actually, I kind of enjoyed it :-)

(Truman talking here:)

> I know the world will never forget that the first bomb was dropped on
> Hiroshima on August 5, at 7:15 P.M. Washington time,

What the world remembers is that it was dropped on August 6, Hiroshima
time, killing 130,000 and destroying 90 percent of the city.

 and the second on
> Nagasaki on August 9.  One more plea for surrender had been made to the
> Japanese on July 29, and was rejected immediately.  Then I gave the final
> order, saying I had no qualms "if millions of lives could be saved."  I meant
> both American and Japanese lives.
>
> The Japanese surrendered five days after the bomb was dropped on
> Nagasaki, and a number of major Japanese military men and diplomats later
> confirmed publicly that there would have been no quick surrender without it.

Truman is making a clever segue from the Hiroshima bomb to the Nagasaki
bomb. 72 hours separated the two explosions, and the Japanese government
simply did not yet know what had happened at Hiroshima when the Nagasaki
bomb exploded. I think there is a special place in hell for Harry Truman,
and that he wears a placard saying: "I destroyed Nagasaki *for nothing*."

            - Dan      <dan.ford@unh.edu>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 09:23:07 -0500
From:    "W.C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <ERCOUPE@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Cousteau show

Mea culpa, folks....

The Cousteau's Rediscovery of the World airs on TBS.  It was on last
nite at midnite (after the eminently spectacular MOONSHOT special of
which Part II airs Wednesday) and the next showing I could find was
listed for Saturday afternoon, at 4:00 p.m. EDT as I recall.

Bill
N93774@vms.cis.pitt.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 09:37:24 -0500
From:    "W.C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <ERCOUPE@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Truman/Atom Bomb

x
>Truman is making a clever segue from the Hiroshima bomb to the Nagasaki
>bomb. 72 hours separated the two explosions, and the Japanese government
>simply did not yet know what had happened at Hiroshima when the Nagasaki
>bomb exploded. I think there is a special place in hell for Harry Truman,
>and that he wears a placard saying: "I destroyed Nagasaki *for nothing*."

>            - Dan      <dan.ford@unh.edu>


Or a special place in heaven where he wears a placard saying "I saved
countless American lives".  You make the statement that the Japanese
government did not know what had happened.  Can you substantiate this
or is it simply speculation?  How long would it take a recon plane to fly
from Tokyo to Hiroshima?  Surely not 72 hours.

Further, you seem to imply that the
Japanese surrender would be a given if they were aware of the first
bomb (assuming they weren't).  Again, can you substantiate this with
some citations?

Please share with us the source of this information.

Bill
N93774@vms.cis.pitt.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 22:19:22 +0200
From:    John Ausland <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: GEN: JAPANESE AND GERMANS VIEWS OF WWII

  Oslo, July 12, 1994

  Michiko Kakutani, who is on the staff of The New York Times, is less
enthusiastic about Ian Buruma's THE WAGES OF GUILT: MEMORIES OF WAR IN GERMANY
AND JAPAN than Gordon Craig was.  (I posted a message about Craig's review
yesterday.)

  Kakutani's review appeared in today's International Herald Tribune but
appeared earlier in The New York Times.  His main complaint is that Buruma is
too easy on the Germans.

  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

  PS  I guess I will have to read the book.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 10:49:17 -0400
From:    Ron Babuka <wrb1@CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: Re: Truman/Atom Bomb

>Truman is making a clever segue from the Hiroshima bomb to the Nagasaki
>bomb. 72 hours separated the two explosions, and the Japanese government
>simply did not yet know what had happened at Hiroshima when the Nagasaki
>bomb exploded. I think there is a special place in hell for Harry Truman,
>and that he wears a placard saying: "I destroyed Nagasaki *for nothing*."
>

Hmmmmmm  If all you have to do to have a special place in hell is to order
use of a powerful weapon against a all-but-beaten enemy that has YET to
capitulate,
then hell is a very crowded place indeed (and the store will be running low
on placards too).

I personally would not want to have to explain to an American mother why
her son died in some action because we wanted to offer the Japanese
government an extra couple of days to recieve news of Hiroshima and
formulate their next option.  Nor would I want to be the American taking
the risk while our government was being benevolent and humane.  Just my
opinion.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka                                         National Warplane Museum
Cornell University                                 Geneseo, New York
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 10:56:04 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>
Subject: More on: the Nagasaki bomb

Some useful references on the last months of Imperial Japan:

Hata & Izawa: JAPANESE NAVAL ACES & FIGHTER UNITS. Annapolis:
Naval Institute Press, 1989.

Lester Brooks: BEHIND JAPAN'S SURRENDER.  McGraw-Hill, 1968.

Pacific War Research Society: JAPAN'S LONGEST DAY. Tokyo:
Kodansha, 1968. (Originally NIHON NO ICHIBAN NAGAI HI; Bungei
Shunju, 1965)

William Craig: THE FALL OF JAPAN.  Dial, 1967

Keith Wheeler: BOMBERS OVER JAPAN. Alexandria: Time-Life Books,
1982.

Alvin Cook: THE B-29 CAMPAIGN AGAINST JAPAN: THE JAPANESE
DIMENSION. Privately printed, 1982.

Yohji Watanabe: PICTORIAL HISTORY OF AIR WAR OVER JAPAN. Tokyo:
Japanese Army Air Force/Hara Shobo Co., 1970.

            - Dan      <dan.ford@unh.edu>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 10:41:15 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Truman/Atom Bomb

> countless American lives".  You make the statement that the Japanese
> government did not know what had happened.  Can you substantiate this
> or is it simply speculation?  How long would it take a recon plane to fly
> from Tokyo to Hiroshima?  Surely not 72 hours.

Actually, they sent a team on the train when nobody answered the phone.
Needless to say, the team had a bit of trouble at the point where the
tracks were melted. They didn't report back until after the Nagasaki bomb
was dropped. See any one of several books on this topic, notably *Japan's
Longest Week*, I believe it was called.

> Further, you seem to imply that the
> Japanese surrender would be a given if they were aware of the first
> bomb (assuming they weren't).  Again, can you substantiate this with
> some citations?

How many cities have to be fricasseed? Are you saying that if 130,000
dead at Hiroshima wouldn't prompt a surrender, then a much smaller number
dead at Nagasaki (wasn't it more like 60,000) would have? Get serious!

Actually, the Japanese were trying like hell to surrrender (and keep the
emperor and call it something else, of course, both of which we
ultimately allowed them to do). Unfortunately they chose the Soviet Union
as their go-between, and guess what? The messages got delayed :-)

The Hiroshima bomb was a justifiable military decision given the
circumstances of the time. The Nagasaki bomb was a war crime.

Now everybody thinks Truman was a great man because he bought his own
stamps and carried his own bags to Union Station. For the record he:
codified the division of Europe which took 50 years to unravel, dropped
one too many atomic bombs, begged Stalin to attack Japan and thus ensure
Soviet hegemony over Manchuria and the Sakalin Islands (which Russia still
holds), got the Cold War off to a rousing start by insisting that West
Germany currency be circulated in Berlin, assured the world that the U.S.
had no military interest in Korea and thus prompted Kim to invade South
Korea, and then of course dispatched an utterly unprepared American army
to defend it. Compared to Truman, Lyndon Johnson was a military genius.

            - Dan      <dan.ford@unh.edu>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 11:07:14 -0400
From:    Wendy Slader <wslader@ACAD.BRYANT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Truman/Atom Bomb

> >bomb exploded. I think there is a special place in hell for Harry Truman,
> >and that he wears a placard saying: "I destroyed Nagasaki *for nothing*."
>
> >            - Dan      <dan.ford@unh.edu>


> Or a special place in heaven where he wears a placard saying "I saved
> countless American lives".  You make the statement that the Japanese
> government did not know what had happened.  Can you substantiate this
> or is it simply speculation?  How long would it take a recon plane to fly
> from Tokyo to Hiroshima?  Surely not 72 hours.
>
> Further, you seem to imply that the
> Japanese surrender would be a given if they were aware of the first
> bomb (assuming they weren't).  Again, can you substantiate this with
> some citations?
>
> Please share with us the source of this information.
>
> Bill
> N93774@vms.cis.pitt.edu
>

Perhaps he should wear one of the badges on his chest and one on his
butt.  All I know is this:  Sworn in as president at 7:09 p.m  April 12,
1945--told of bomb testing at Alamogordo at 7:30 p.m. April 12,
1945--drops bomb on August 5th 1945 not knowing from Adam what it would
REALLY do.
To me, that's kind of scary.

Wendy Slader

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 10:42:38 -0500
From:    Bill Smith <bismith@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Truman/Atom Bomb

On Tue, 12 Jul 1994, Dan Ford wrote:

> I think there is a special place in hell for Harry Truman,
> and that he wears a placard saying: "I destroyed Nagasaki *for nothing*."

And, I suppose, Curtis LeMay's reads "I firebombed Tokyo *for nothing*."
Would FDR have one also for "I allowed Dresden *for nothing*," or would
it say "I allowed Dresden for Vonnegut's royalties."

IMHO -- Touch ironic that we're nashing our teeth at the PC of the
Smithsonian attempting to make us "war criminals" and guilty of all sins.
Meanwhile in Tokyo, they seem to be upset over the Nipponese version of PC,
attempting to say they did something wrong.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 12:44:03 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN: JAPANESE AND GERMANS VIEWS OF WWII

Would anyone like to have Kakutani's review (mentioned by John Ausland)
posted?

            - Dan      <dan.ford@unh.edu>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 14:04:45 -0400
From:    Wendy Slader <wslader@ACAD.BRYANT.EDU>
Subject: Malaria Remedy

This is sort of a "haffassed" WWII question with a side-order of medical
research...

My uncle served under Gen. Patton and while in North Africa contracted
Malaria.  The story goes that he was given nothing to eat for weeks but
instead was gorged with pineapple juice hour after hour, day after day.
Can anyone tell me why mass quantities of pineapple juice would be given
as a remedy for malaria?   Apparently it worked--he did survive.
Just curious.  Thanks.    WS

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 14:20:08 EDT
From:    Kurt Luginbyhl <MNHAD007@SIVM.SI.EDU>
Subject: Truman/Atom Bomb

Hi,  First thanks to Dan Cox for the excerpt from Truman's writings.  There
has been a great deal of name calling and finger pointing over the SI's
exhibit of the Enola Gay.  I have not seen the exhibit and cannot speak for
the SI in regards to policy as it relates to the written word in Exhibits.
I must say that I am opposed to revisionism in historical contextand will
always oppose such activity.  As historians we cannot second guess the actions
of historical people.  We should relate, report and record the facts without
prejudice.  This has ever been the difficult thing to do.  Today even or should
I say especially the news media continues to sensationalize and manipulate the
"truth" for profit and ratings.  If only there were more people proclaiming
the necesity of historical research and its record than those trying to shout
down those performing the work.   Oh yeah,!  Death to Outcome Based Education!
:)   That ought to get y'll going!   I am reading a book published by SI Press
on The Rise of the Fighter Aircraft and I will be happy to report back... Sorry
I can't remember the author presently.    Cheers!

H. A. Kurt Luginbyhl
Scientific Computer Specialist
National Museum of Natural History
Washington D.C. 20560

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 14:42:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: More on: the Nagasaki bomb

Dan,

I must disagree with you on your comments about Harry Truman, et al.  It is
easy to sit here now 50 years later and say that the Japanese did not know
what happened to Hiroshima and they did not know until the team that went
by train arrived in the area.  I can see sending a full-fledged investigative
team by train  but if the Japanese were really concerned about the fate of
Hiroshima, why didn't they send an aircraft over the city?  They certainly
had enough gasoline to fuel Kamikaze aircraft then why not one to find out
why the phones were not being answered?  I would have done it and I think
that the Americans who were in on the planning of Nagaski would have
thought the same way.  Perhaps that was the mistake on both parts.

Another villian in the plot is the Soviet Union.  As I understand it, the
Japanese had put out peace feelers to the Soviets but Uncle Joe stalled and
never passed the information on to the West.  Perhaps we should be
condemning Uncle Joe also.




-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 14:23:29 -0500
From:    Michael D Wallick <msmdw@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Malaria Remedy

On Tue, 12 Jul 1994, Wendy Slader wrote:

> This is sort of a "haffassed" WWII question with a side-order of medical
> research...
>
> My uncle served under Gen. Patton and while in North Africa contracted
> Malaria.  The story goes that he was given nothing to eat for weeks but
> instead was gorged with pineapple juice hour after hour, day after day.
> Can anyone tell me why mass quantities of pineapple juice would be given
> as a remedy for malaria?   Apparently it worked--he did survive.
> Just curious.  Thanks.    WS
>
My guess is to prevent dehydration and put some nutriments in the body.
Pineapple juice has vitamin C in it.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 14:27:27 -0500
From:    Michael D Wallick <msmdw@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Media: CBS Reports

On July 21, 1994, at 9 p.m. Eastern time, CBS will air "Hitler and
Stalin: A Legacy of Hate".  It will be hosted by Charles Kuralt and
H. Norman Schwarzkopf.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 14:43:10 EST
From:    coon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU
Subject: Re: Truman/Atom Bomb

Time for my 2 cents.  Its been a good many years ago, but I remember
having read a book with a title along the lines of The Collapse/Fall
of Japan.  It includes the account of an American POW who was questioned
after the Hiroshima bomb.  His Japanese captors were particularly interested
in what he might know about nuclear weapons.  This would certainly seem
to suggest that the Japanese DID know or at least suspect what had happened.
That they did not surrender immediately should earn them a special place
in Hell with collective placards reading "I let 100,000+ of my people die
*for nothing.*
************************************************
Roger (Brad) Coon            "Better to have one
COON@IPFWCVAX.BITNET          freedom too many,
COON@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU    than to have one
                              too few."

Politically incorrect and proud of it.
Niquimictitoc inana Bambi.
************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 15:44:47 -0500
From:    "W.C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <ERCOUPE@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Truman/Atom Bomb

Dan argues:

>How many cities have to be fricasseed? Are you saying that if 130,000
>dead at Hiroshima wouldn't prompt a surrender, then a much smaller number
>dead at Nagasaki (wasn't it more like 60,000) would have? Get serious!

Let's use Ol' Dan's logic right back at him....he who can say that
Hiroshima WAS justified by military necessity but Nagasaki was not:

"How many cities have to be fricaseed?  Are you saying that if
250,000 dead/missing in a firebombed Tokyo wouldn't prompt a surrender then
a much smaller number (like 130,000 dead at Hiroshima) would have?
Get serious!"

The numbers are not the factor...the ability to destroy and make the
enemy believe in that ability is what did the trick.  There were many
who doubted that the Japanese would surrender after Nagasaki.  Was there
not a plan to drop the next bomb on Tokyo?

THere is nothing that says the Japanese would have surrendered had there
been no second bomb.  It is all speculation.  The fact of the matter is
that the second bomb DID result in unconditional surrender.  And that is
what stays in the history books.

Further, your logic is flawed in that you are trying to brand Ol' Harry
as a war criminal because he ordered the bombing without waiting to see
whether they responded to Hiroshima.  Well, if I were looking for
signs of surrender (and you have said that the Japanese were 'trying like
hell' to surrender) then the first sign I would look for was a
cessation of hostilities on their part.  Did this happen?  Not at all.
Harry's FIRST responsibility was to the American serviceman as
their commander in chief.  He would have been remiss in his duties had he
NOT done everything in his power to bring the war to a conclusion.
While I am certainly no Harry-worshipper, I think he made the best decision
based on the information available to him at the time.

No, I think you would be more accurate if you were to say that the Japanese
were 'trying like hell to jockey for favorable terms in which to cease
hostilities'.  This is not the same as surrender, and the Japanese
knew that the only offer on the table was unconditional surrender.

War ain't nice....but than again, there is that adage about living
by the sword...

Bill
N93774@vms.cis.pitt.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 15:45:24 -0400
From:    Peter Smith <psmith@WELLSPRING.US.DG.COM>
Subject: Re: Truman/Atom Bomb

Dan Ford said:
>Truman is making a clever segue from the Hiroshima bomb to the Nagasaki
>bomb. 72 hours separated the two explosions, and the Japanese government
>simply did not yet know what had happened at Hiroshima when the Nagasaki
>bomb exploded.

Hindsight is wonderful.  Neither Truman nor anyone else could predict how
quickly the news of Hirshima would be assimilated in Tokyo.  Likewise, it
was most unclear how the various cliques would react to the news and which
would prevail.

> ... I think there is a special place in hell for Harry Truman,
>and that he wears a placard saying: "I destroyed Nagasaki *for nothing*."

Wherever he is, his placard most likely reads: "I wanted to be damned sure
the war ended right away."
--
Peter Smith -- Data General Corp., Westboro, MA
psmith@wellspring.us.dg.com (preferred) or Peter_Smith@dgc.ceo.dg.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 16:40:43 -0400
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: ADMIN: Truman/Atom Bomb

        This is just a reminder to keep things scholarly and professional.
Talking about pinning badges on a deceased President's spiritual butt is
not my idea of either.  (Unless, of course, a citation can be provided
from primary sources! :-)
--
Joe Barone, WWII-L owner
m1b@ssd.ray.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 16:55:02 -0400
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: Truman/Atom Bomb

I grabbed this off of Usenet last year.  It seemed pertinent so I repost
portions of it (the other portions will follow) without the author's
permission.  (Even the Subject line is similar!)

 Newsgroups: soc.history
 From: miklg@acuson.com (Michael Goldman )
 Subject: Truman and the A-Bomb
 Organization: Acuson; Mountain View, California
 Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1993 14:40:51 GMT

tmohler+@cs.cmu.edu (Tim Mohler) writes:
>As far as I know, there is nothing that directly says that
>Truman decided to drop the bomb for other purposes, and it
>is certain that ending the war quickly factored into his
>decision, but Secretary of War Henry Stimson, along with others,
>mentions that

>(a) the Japanese had already sent out surrender feelers

>(b) Truman felt he needed a bargaining chip with the Russians
>after the war

>(c) Truman wanted to make sure that Russia's entry into the war
>did not coincide with Japanese surrender, thus preserving
>America's triumph for America.

        ------------------

        This gets debated endlessly in s.c.japan.  I repost some of the
dialogue:

  From "Japan's Imperial Conspiracy" by David Bergamini:

  (page 61-64 - The decision to use the Atomic bomb)

  "Stimson..declared the purpose of the meeting:

        Our great task is to bring this war to a prompt and
        successful conclusion.  We may assume that our new
        weapon puts in our hands overwhelming power.  It is
        our obligation to use this power with the best wisdom
        we can command..."

  ...At lunch Arthur Compton suggested that it might be most humane to hold
  a demonstration of the bomb for the Japanese before using it on a target.
  War Secretary Stimson enthusiastically agreed.  But over dessert the idea
  foundered in a sea of difficulties...

  "The Interim Committee, including all the scientists present finally voted
  against demonstration and for military use of the bomb.  At the same time
  the scientists were asked by Stimson to consider the matter further and
  'prepare a report as to whether we could devise any kind of demonstration
  that would seem likely to bring the war to an end without using the bomb
  against a live target.'  The scientists' answer was delivered on June 16.
  It said, in a sentence that Stimson underlined in his own copy, 'We can
  propose no technical demonstration likely to bring an end to the war; we
  see no acceptable alternative to direct military use.'

  [several paragrahs omitted]

  "...Edward Teller...has since asserted: 'I was positive then, and I am
  positive now, that we made a mistake dropping the bomb without a previous
  bloodless demonstration.  We could have used the bomb to end the war
  without bloodshed by exploding it high over Tokyo at night without prior
  warning.  If it had been exploded at an altitude of 20,000 feet, instead
  of the low altitude of 2,000 feet...there would have been a minimum loss
  of life, if any, and hardly any damage to property, but there would have
  been tremendous sound and light effects.  We could then have said to the
  Japanese leaders: 'This was an atomic bomb.  One of them can destroy a
  city.  Surrender or be destroyed!' '

  "...The fact is, however, that the suggestion was never put forward in
  government circles.

  "...Up to the last minute [before Potsdam] Truman watched Japan.  Through
  radio monitoring and code breaking he had access to all messages which
  passed between Tokyo and Japanese embassies in neutral countries...He cannot
  have found in it much hope that Japan was about to accept unconditional
  surrender because the actual deliberations in Tokyo at that time were a
  study in procrastination and bluff. [Then follow several pages describing
  the extremely accurate predictions of the war's course that were made by
  the Japanese Army and Navy beginning 6 months before Pearl Harbor and
  repeated during the war.  They all concluded that total defeat was
  inevitable.]

  (page 1093 -  Suicidal Japanese Resistance)

  "...After the U.S. landings along Luzon's Lingayen Gulf, on January 9,
  MacArthur's troops moved along Luzon's Lingayen Gulf, on February 3.
  Yamashita had pulled back the bulk of his army into defensive positions
  in the mountains around Baguio.  He had planned to give up the Manila
  area without a fight and so spare its million-odd Filipinos from the
  hardships of seige, bombardment and street fighting.

  "Hirohito's Imperial General Headquarters had other ideas.  At the
  last minute, over Yamashita's objections, Tokyo Headquarters sent
  into Manila a naval landing party of some 15,000 sailors and marines
  under a Rear Admiral Iwabuchi Sanji, a former imperial aide-de-camp.
  Together with 4,000 to 5,000 soldiers, whom Yamashita had left in the
  city to demolish Army stores and munitions dumps, Iwabuchi and his men
  contested the city street by street, house by house, and sewer by sewer.
  A month later when the last sailor had been blasted from his hole, the
  finest sections of Manila had been turned to rubble.

  "Iwabuchi made his last stand in Intramuros, the old Spanish walled town
  in the south of the city.  Having themselves decided to die, Iwabuchi's
  men showed no mercy to the Filipino civilians whom they had entrapped with
  them.  They raped the women and machine-gunned the men.  When the battle
  was done, 1,000 Americans had died, 16,000 Japanese, and 100,000 Filipinos.

  (page 72 - 79 - Japanese delay surrender tactics)

  "Lord Privy Seal Kido, as chief advisor to the Throne, had assumed the
  dread responsibility of deciding when the moment was ripe for the
  imperial decision... It would be disastrous to declare for peace too
  early...The nation must be reduced to war-weariness.  The soldiers must
  sate their sense of honor.  If possible, the enemy must begin to feel
  shame and pity.

  "The B-29's came almost nightly...While Kido waited for the perfect
  moment, 200,000 Japanese died."

  "...Iwo Jima had fallen.  It was the first island to be lost where
  Japanese fishermen had lived for centuries.  With Iwo had perished
  20,000 soldiers... All those 20,000 men had vowed to die and take as
  many Americans with them as possible.  They had had eight months to
  dig tunnels and develop the natural caves of the rocky island.  And
  in the end they had killed less than 7,000 Americans and held out for
  less than five weeks."

  "[After Hitler's suicide Hirihito and Kido meet to discuss the situation]
  ...Now that the allies had both hands free to strangle Japan...
  unconditional surrender became inevitable.  But Japan must appear to be
  an irrational nation.  Otherwise there would be no need for the Emperor
  to intervene and speak with the Voice of the Crane. [Thereby seeming to be
  a savior of the nation rather than its destroyer.]  More than ever,
  therefore, Japan must show that she was ready to hold out insanely.

  "Two days later an operational dispatch...came from Commander Fujimura
  Yoshiro...head of the Navy's peace-seeking mission in Switzerland...He
  proudly reported that Allen Dulles, the head of the O.S.S [pre-cursor
  to the CIA] in Europe, had offered his services in case Japan should wish
  to arrange a termination of hostilities.  Fujimura...described the havoc
  the Nazi diehards had brought to Germany.  He enumerated the Allied
  forces which were being diverted from Europe to the Pacific Theater.  He
  relayed intelligence that Russia would soon join in the war against Japan.
  He described the part which Allen Dulles had played in bringing peace to
  northern Italy and preserving it from destruction.

  "...In a week during which 193 kamikaze pilots were hurling themselves
  to death at Okinawa, the chief and vice chief of the Navy General Staff
  felt that they could not shoulder the responsibility for refusing Dulles's
  mediation.  Hirohito accepted their resignations on May 25 and replaced them
  a few days later with admirals tough enough to ignore further cables from
  Switzerland.

  "[On June 8, at a meeting of the Cabinet and Emperor]...a declaration
  was read aloud and passed unanimously.  It called on the nation to fight
  to the last of its 70 million men, women, and children...As Hirohito later
  explained to one of his chamberlains: 'A concealed clause..was a peace
  clause'

  "As soon as the meeting had adjourned imperial advisor Kido drafted a
  written plan for implementing the peace resolution.  His idea was that
  the United States could be made to concede terms out of fear that,
  otherwise, Japan would give China to Russia.

  (page 1102 - 1103 - The last days)

  "Sharpened staves of bamboo were handed out as spears to the villagers
  along likely invasion beaches in southern Japan.  And then the US B-29's
  proceeded to drop the sophisticated atomic bomb.

  "Hirohito had been expecting to negotiate a surrender in September or
  October after the loss of perhaps another million of his loyal subjects.
  The bomb, as he later told MacArthur, gave Japan an excuse to surrender
  earlier.  That is, it forced Hirohito to 'bear the unbearable' humiliation
  of surrender immediately.

  "...Again on the morning of August 14, when his ministers had debated
  the allied reply to Japan's surrender note for two days, he cut off
  their deliberation and ordered them to accept the U.S. terms without
  further ado."

--- end of quote ---

I'll interject something about MY [Mike Goldman's, not Joe Barone's]
family then (my in-laws, to be
exact). My grandmother-in-law was a school teacher in Kochi, Japan. In
1945, the military started military training of her students (2nd, 3rd,
and 4th graders). They were given bamboo spears and taught to charge
American strongholds, and they were assured that the army would be
right behind them and that the emporer himself would laud their
sacrifice. I've heard similar stories from a couple of my Japanese
professors as well. It seems that the military was fully prepared to
sacrifice any Japanese life, as they did in Okinawa. Note that Hirohito
never visited Okinawa after the war because it was not felt that his
safety could have been guaranteed, in light of what the JAPANESE army
had done, and forced upon, the people.

One of my best friend's father was at Hiroshima on the day of the
bombing. The city had been warned that the Americans were going to
"destroy the city" (the US had been dropping propaganda leaflets there,
warning of impending destruction). The city, to show it wasn't cowed,
scheduled a sort of "roof repair" day for the school children, and as a
consequence, my friend's father was up on the roof when the bomb was
detonated. He survived that (obviously) and emmigrated to the US. He
died later of leukemia, but the feeling he left with his children was
that Hiroshima was unavoidable due to the Japanese government's actions
and recalcitrance. I believe the exact word used was "justified".

--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
You're a good man, Mulligan.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 17:04:41 -0400
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: More on: the Nagasaki bomb

mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM> writes:
> Another villian in the plot is the Soviet Union.  As I understand it, the
> Japanese had put out peace feelers to the Soviets but Uncle Joe stalled and
> never passed the information on to the West.  Perhaps we should be
> condemning Uncle Joe also.

The remaining portion of Mike Goldman's article elaborates on this topic:

  From "Japan's Imperial Conspiracy" by David Bergamini:

        pp 80-82:  "On June 29 [1945], the Japanese
        foreign ministry finally made its first written proposal to the
        USSR.  Through an intermediary, [Hirota Koki, a former prime
        and foreign minister], Foreign Minister Togo offered Soviet
        Ambassador Malik a neutral Manchuria, no more special Japanese
        fishing privileges, favorable consideration of other Russian
        requests - this pittance in exchange for a pledge by Russia
        that she would refrain from joining in the war against Japan.
        No mention was made of Japan surrendering.  On the contrary the
        Japanese emissary suggested that perhaps the USSR would like to
        throw in some oil and aviation gas in order to weaken the
        common enemy, the United States.  Soviet Ambassador Malik
        fidgeted...  stifled a yawn and promised routinely to study the
        proposal.  For the next two weeks, he put off increasingly
        desperate Japanese representations.  He was sick, he said, with
        the Japanese flu.

        "[On July 4] Tokyo leaders were discussing fresh intelligence
        from Switzerland....Lieutenant General Okamoto the head of the
        Army peace mission there had sounded out Allen Dulles, the
        chief of the OSS in Europe, as to what terms ... the US would
        give Japan.  Dulles had replied that 'if Japan surrenders' it
        was the 'understanding' of the United States that the Allies
        would allow the Emperor system of government to continue.  It
        was the one condition which Japanese leaders months earlier had
        agreed to settle for if worst came to worst.  But no one knew
        how much trust to put in it.  Japanese spy agencies had offered
        them routinely in China without any intention of honoring
        them....

        "Analysis of foreign broadcasts had brought it home to Hirohito
        that Allied leaders at their scheduled Potsdam meeting in
        Mid-July were about to decide the fate of the Orient.  To save
        American lives, Truman might invite Russian and even China to
        contribute troops for the assault on Japan.  The thought of a
        Russian invasion was terrifying enough, but the thought of a
        Chinese revenge raised cold sweats.  Hirohito decided to go
        over the head of 'sick' ambassador Malik in Tokyo and begin
        direct conversations with Molotov in Moscow."

        Hiohito then summoned Prime Minister Suzuki (July 7) and Prince
        Konoye (July 12).  Prince Konoye then went to Foreign Minister
        Togo who immediately cabled Ambassador Sato in Moscow "SEE
        MOLOTOV BEFORE HIS DEPARTURE FOR POTSDAM...CONVEY HIS MAJESTY'S
        STRONG DESIRE TO SECURE A TERMINATION OF THE
        WAR...UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER IS THE ONLY OBSTACLE TO PEACE..."

        "That night at 11:25 Ambassador Sato cabled back:  THERE IS NO
        CHANCE OF WINNING THE SOVIET UNION TO OUR SIDE AND OF OBTAINING
        HER SUPPORT ON THE BASIS SET FORTH IN YOUR CABLES...JAPAN IS
        DEFEATED...WE MUST FACE THIS FACT AND ACT ACCORDINGLY...

        "Sato's cable crossed a second cable from...Togo...PLEASE
        ARRANGE IMMEDIATELY TO OBTAIN AN ENTRY PERMIT FOR PRINCE KONOYE
        AND HIS PARTY..HAVE A SOVIET PLANE MEET THEM [in Manchuria].
        [Konoye was to arrange the details of surrender].

        "...Sato cabled home on July 13 that Molotov 'could not find
        time to see me' [so Sato saw a subordinate instead, begging for
        a quick reply.]

        "On July 19 ... Sato...received an ordinary postal letter from
        a member of Molotov's staff, stating that the Japanese
        proposals were, as yet, too vague to warrant an answer.  Sato
        relayed this to Tokyo with an impassioned plea for a realistic
        surrender note.  Foreign minister Togo consulted with Hirohito
        and felt able to give Sato little clarification.  It was Prince
        Konoye's mission he cabled, to bring specific surrender
        proposals to Moscow and to arrange a peace short of
        unconditional surrender."

        All of these cables were intercepted, decoded, and read by the
        US agents and translations were given to US Secretary of State
        Byrnes.  While revealing that Japan was desperate to surrender,
        it did not reveal the terms under which she was seeking peace.

        "...Byrnes was advised, accordingly, that the Togo-Sato cables
        appeared to be an attempt on the part of the Japanese military
        to make a deal with Russia and thereby attach conditions to
        surrender conditions which might enable the military clique to
        evade punishment and stay in power"

        ---

        In an interview on TV Hirohito stated that dropping the
        bomb was a military necessity.  That is not now and was not
        then a popular view in Japan.

        ---

        This subject has been studied to death.  The idea that
        Truman dropped the bomb for any other reason than
        military necessity is one of those fringe ideas that
        rely on innuendo and supposition.

        - Michael Goldman
--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
A Sherman can give you a very nice edge.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 17:15:40 EDT
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <sparks@ALPHA.CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: Re: 2nd A-bomb decision

Excerpted from William Craig's "The Fall of Japan" (LOC 67-10704):

On the afternoon of 8 August, Chuck Sweeney had flown "The Great
Artiste" (my note: Sweeney's B-29; accompanied "Enola Gay" to
Hiroshima to collect data; flown by Fred Bock, it later went to
Nagasaki in same function) over the Pacifica and dropped another
dummy bomb into the sea.  This one contained all of the parts of
the Fat Man except the plutonium.  All the fuses, switches, and
Detonators worked perfectly.  Upuntil that moment, all of the
varied components needed to trigger the bomb in flight had not been
assembled together inside the casing...(deleted for brevity)...
He knew that the Fat Man would be dropped on Japan within 24 hours.

When "The Great Artiste" got back to Tinian, Crew 15 was told that
it would fly again the next morning. ****Since weather reports
from Japan indicated unsettled conditions would prevail for five
days after the ninth of August, the Fat Man would leave within
hours.****  (Emphasis mine)

Admiral Purnell and General Groves had often discussed the importance
of putting a second bomb on target as quickly as possible after the
first in order to impress the Japanese with the fact that the
United States was actually in production of the weapon, that the
future held the prospect of more and more atomic warfare.  It was
Purnell who had initially proposed that it would take two bombs to
end the war.  Groves concurred in that belief.  Harry Truman
evidently did, too.  He ordered atomic bombs dropped on "the two
cities named on the way back from Potsdam."  Unless expressly
countermanded by radio from Washington, field commanders on Tinian
could proceed accordingly.  Orders for the second atomic mission
were cut.

End quote


Condensed from the same book, but not direct quotes:

An eyewitness account of the bombing of Hiroshima had reached Tokyo
by 1700 local time on 6 August.

On the evening of 8 August, Secret Police in Osaka were questioning
and torturing American Lt. Marcus McDilla, a P-51 pilot shot down
that day while strafing.  The interrogators demanded that he tell
them what he knew of the atomic bomb dropped two days before on
Hiroshima.  McDilla, of course, knew nothing.  When threatened with
beheading, he began making up details on the bomb, providing
specious information on theory of operation and bomb dimensions.
Asked for further plans for the weapon, he told them that he had
heard that the next one would be dropped on Tokyo in a few days.
This information was quickly passed on to Tokyo.

Dennis E. Sparks
sparks@alpha.caer.uky.edu
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 18:30:53 -0400
From:    Wendy Slader <wslader@ACAD.BRYANT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Truman/Atom Bomb

On Tue, 12 Jul 1994, W.C. (RUSTY) DIVENS wrote:

> The numbers are not the factor...the ability to destroy and make the
> enemy believe in that ability is what did the trick.  There were many
> who doubted that the Japanese would surrender after Nagasaki.  Was there
> not a plan to drop the next bomb on Tokyo?


    (...i hope i don't sound like a moron...i am a greenhorn...)
Anyway:

    Too bad that while they were testing the bomb in New Mexico they
couldn't have filmed a "home movie" and shipped it on over to the emperor
to "catch him up on current events."  Maybe that would have saved
countless lives on both sides...

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 11 Jul 1994 to 12 Jul 1994
*************************************************

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Status: O

There are 22 messages totalling 851 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. INF: USN Chronology 07-13-94
  2. Nagasaki
  3. Truman/Atom Bomb
  4. [INF] USAAF 13 JUL 44
  5. TRUMAN AND ATOM BOMB
  6. 50th: FIGHTING IN NORMANDY (2)
  7. Malaria Remedy
  8. More on: the Nagasaki bomb
  9. Bob Stevens
 10. No Mail
 11. Me-262 reconstructions
 12. <No subject given>
 13. Parachutes (5)
 14. INF: 50 Years Ago - 13-JUL-1944
 15. B-25 H model
 16. Bomb Transportation (2)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Jul 1994 01:27:03 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 07-13-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
07/13 Thu.  United States naval vessel sunk:
             Submarine HERRING (SS-133), Pacific Ocean area, reported as
              presumed lost.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Jul 1994 06:56:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Nagasaki

On my last birthday, my wife gave me a copy of TRUMAN by David McCullough
(Simon & Schuster, 1992, ISBN 0-671-45654-7).  I have not had a chance to
read it yet (another one on the pile of TO BE READ!!!) but due to the
current debate about the Nagaski bomb, I decided to use the book as a
reference to see what McCullough had to say about this event.

On page 457, McCullough states that no high-level meeting had been held
about the Nagaski bomb and no order, other than the military directive for
the first bomb, had ever been issued.  This directive had been issued on 25
Jul 45 by General of the Army George C. Marshall's deputy, General Thomas
T. Handy, to General Carl A. Spaatz, Commanding General, U.S. Army
Strategic Air Forces in the Pacific (USASTAF).  Paragraph 2 of the
directive stated, "Additional bombs will be delivered on the above targets
as soon as made ready by the project staff....."  The plutonium bomb,
nicknamed "Fat Man," was delivered two days ahead of schedule.

NOTE: According to THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II, Volume 5, Wesley
Frank Craven and James Lea Cate, the University of Chicago Press, 1953,
some thought had been given to dropping the second bomb on 11 August 45.
When bad weather was forcast for the Japanese main islands on 11 August,
the strike day for the atom bomb was advanced to 9 August.  This decision
was made by military personnel in the Marianas Islands, not by Truman.
(page 718)

On page 459, McCullough states the on the morning Nagaski was bombed, a
meeting was held of Japan's Supreme Council for the Direction of War in
Prime Minister Kantaro Suzuki's bomb shelter outside the Imperial Palace in
Tokyo.  "The meeting was deadlocked with three powerful military commanders
(two generals and one admiral) arguing fervently against surrender.  It was
time now to 'lure' the Americans ashore.  General (Korechika) Anami, the war
minister, called for one last great battle on Japanese soil--as demanded by
the national honor, as demanded by the honor of the living and the dead.
'Would it not be wondrous for this whole nation to be destroyed like a
beautiful flower?' he asked.  But when news of Nagaski was brought in, the
meeting was adjourned to convene again with the Emperor that night in the
Imperial Libraary.  In the end, less than twenty-four hours after Nagaski,
it was Hirohito who decided.  They must, he said, 'bear the unbearable' and
surrender."

In Jul 45, the Japanese ambassador in Moscow, Naotake Sato, on orders
from Tokyo, had begun discussions with the Soviets on the possibility of
bringing an end to the war. On 12 Jul, the Japanese Minister of Foreign
Affairs, Shigenori Togo, send a "Very Secret, Urgent" radio message to
Ambassador Sato stating that the Emperor was "greatly concerned over the
daily increasing calamities and sacrifices faced by the citizens of the
various belligerent countries" and that is was "His Majesty's heart's
desire to see the swift termination of the war."  His Majesty wished to
send Prince Konoye as a special envoy to Mosocw to talk.

Sato sent a message back stating the whole thing was pointless because
Molotov was not interested.  "In the final analysis," Sato tolk Togo, "if
our country truly desires to terminate the war, we have no alternative but
to accept unconditional surrender or something very close to it."  This
message, like all Japanese dipolomatic messages, was intercepted and
decoded by US intelligence.  The response from Tokyo to Sato was that Japan
would not consent to unconditional surrender.  All of these messages were
given to Truman.

Truman was also given an assement by the Combined Intelligence Committee
stating that the Japanese might try to cause dissension among the Allies by
using peace overtures.  And then Truman also remembered the ambassadors that
Japan had sent to Washington in Nov-Dec 41.

As far as Truman's inviting the Soviet Union into the war with Japan, here
are some facts from the book:

1. On 23 Apr 45, 11 days after Roosevelt's death, Turman held a meeting in
the Oval Office with Edward Stettinius, Henry L. Stimson, James Forrestal,
General George C. Marshall, Admirals Ernest J. King and William Leahy, W.
Averell Harriman, Charles "Chip" Bohlen, James Dunn and General John R.
Deane, who was head of the Moscow military missions.  Both Stimson and
Marshall urged that Truman use caution with the Russians because Marshall's
great concern was that Russia would delay getting into the war with Japan
"until we have done all the dirty work."  (page 375)

2. Prior to the Potsdam Conference, "General Marshall and Admiral King had
both stressed the need for Soviet action against Japan, to shorten the war
and reduce American casualties.  General MacArthur had twice insisted that
Russian help was needed."  (page 409)

3. During the Potsdam Conference, Stalin said as they had agreed at Yalta,
the Soviets would be ready to declare war on Japan by mid-Aug 45.  Truman
said he was very pleased but Stalin, as if to stress the point, repeated
that the Red Army would be ready to go to war with Japan in mid-August "as
agreed at Yalta."

4. On 20 Jul 45, Truman, still at Potsdam, invited Generals Dwight D.
Eisenhower and Omar Bradley to lunch.  The generals were not asked their
opinion on dropping the A-bomb on Japan but Eisenhower volunteered that he
was against the use of the bomb.  Ike was also against inviting the
Russians into the war against Japan though he acknowledged that "no power
on earth could keep the Red Army out of that war unless victory came before
they could get in."  Some years later Truman told his daughter Margaret,
"Had we known what the bomb would do we'd never have wanted the Bear in the
picture."

I hope this clears up some misconceptions (shared by me also) about the
events involving the A-bombing of Nagaski.  I welcome all comments.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Jul 1994 07:01:19 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Truman/Atom Bomb

> I have been told that, when the average Japanese heard that the war was over,
> they thought that Japan had won!  Nothing short of the Bomb or total
> annihilation would have sufficed against such a people.

There is a fascinating but one-sided book called *Japan's Imperial
Conspiracy* which tries to make the point that the Emperor planned the
whole war and directed it carefully and minutely. What's great about the
book is the fact that the author was a prisoner in Manila. English, I
think. So he really makes things zip. Anyhow, he made a TV documentary
from it and got it aired on Public TV but of course it was just too
outrageous for the good gentle folk there it let it go by without having
him defend himself for an hour against the usual suspects from academia.

There is a Japanese Asian history scholar at Harvard named Akira. (I
mean, he is Japanese and he teaches Asian history.) When the author made
the point that the people a) couldn't understand the Emperor because he
was speaking in an obsolete court language and b) were so shocked to hear
His voice (I mean, this is God speaking!) that the whole nation broke
down in tears, Akira said in effect:

Well, I was there, and the audio wasn't very good but we understood him
perfectly. And my parents were weeping from relief, because the war was over.

            - Dan      <dan.ford@unh.edu>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Jul 1994 07:04:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 13 JUL 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
THURSDAY, 13 JULY 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 44 P-40s and P-51s support ground
forces in the Myitkyina area; 40 more A-36s, P-51s, and P-47s hit bridges at
Nyaunggon, Mohnyin, Myothit, Mawlu, and Henu, and attack the Hopin, Lashio,
and Indawgyi Lake areas; and the 315th Troop Carrier Squadron, 443d Troop
Carrier Group, based at Moran, India, sends a detachment to operate from
Shingbwiyang with C-47s.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 16 B-25s bomb Pailochi Airfield,
causing large fires and considerable damage; 45 P-40s attack trucks,
compounds, river shipping, and troop concentrations between Hengyang and
Siangtan, pound the town of Liling and Siangtan Airfield, and strafe shipping
from Changsha S along the Siang Chiang River; 8 B-25s bomb Chenghsfen
railroad yards and storage area; and 12 B-25s bomb Tengchung and Mangshih.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 471: 1,043 bombers and
609 fighters in 3 forces are dispatched to bomb targets in Germany; 10
bombers and 5 fighters are lost:
  1. Of 399 B-17s, 356 bomb Munich, 6 bomb the railroad at Munich and 3 hit
targets of opportunity; 4 B-17s are lost, 1 is damaged beyond repair and
156 damaged; 8 airmen are KIA, 7 WIA and 36 MIA. Escort is provided by 292
P-38s, P-47s and P-51s; they claim 2-1-2 Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 P-38 and 1
P-47 are lost.
  2. Of 278 B-17s, 139 bomb Munich, 100 hit an aircraft engine plant at
Munich and 3 hit targets of opportunity; they claim 11-4-8 Luftwaffe
aircraft; 5 B-17s are lost, 2 are damaged beyond repair and 129 damaged; 9
airmen are WIA and 50 MIA. Escort is provided by 170 P-38s, P-47s and
P-51s; 1 P-51 is lost and 1 P-38 is damaged beyond repair.
  3. Of 366 B-24s, 298 hit Saarbrucken marshalling yards and 3 hit targets
of opportunity; 1 B-24 is lost, 7 damaged beyond repair and 31 damaged; 23
airmen are KIA, 9 WIA and 19 MIA. Escort is provided by 81 of 85 P-51s; 1
P-51 is lost and 1 damaged beyond repair.
  28 B-24s fly CARPETBAGGER missions during the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, bad weather prevents
bomber operations and restricts the fighters; fighters fly armed
reconnaissance in the Sens-Montargis area, hitting rail and highway traffic,
warehouses, barracks, and armored cars and tanks; rail lines and bridges are
hit in the Saint-Florentin-Dreux-Evreux-Chartres-Mamers-Gassicourt areas; IX
Tactical Air Command fighters furnish area cover, bomb troop concentrations,
vehicles, and gun positions in the Lessay-Coutances area, and attack rail
traffic W of Angers, a landing field W of Alencon, marshalling yard at
Vendome, and a bridge at Tours.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 581 bombers attack targets in
NE Italy; B-17s hit marshalling yards at Mestre and railroad bridges at
Latisana, Pinzano al Tagliamento and Venzone; B-24s bomb marshalling yards
at Brescia, Mantova and Verona, and oil storage at Porto Marghera and
Trieste; P-38s and P-51s fly escort; other P-51s carry out a sweep over the
Po River Valley.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium bombers again
bomb bridges in the Po River Valley; A-20s hit an ammunition plant; and
fighter-bombers attack targets, mainly railroads, in areas N of the Arno
River in advance of the battlefront. On Corsica, HQ 87th Fighter Wing moves
from Vescovato to Furiani; and the 524th Fighter Squadron, 27th Fighter
Group, moves from Voltone, Italy to Serragia with P-47s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): P-47s continue to hit Tinian
Island. Kwajalein-based B-24s bomb Truk Atoll. B-25s from Makin Island pound
Nauru Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: B-24s again bomb
Yap Island and Sorol Atoll. In New Guinea, B-24s, B-25s, and A-20s bomb gun
positions and the airfield at Babo and in the Manokwari area and hit a supply
depot at Kokas; fighter-bombers support Allied ground forces in the Aitape
area while A-20s and fighter-bombers pound occupied areas and gun positions
in the Wewak area and on Mushu Island; and the 498th Bombardment Squadron
(Medium), 345th Bombardment Group (Medium), moves from Nadzab to Biak Island
with B-25s. B-24s also hit Amahai Airfield on Ceram Island, Celebes Islands.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Jul 1994 15:00:17 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: TRUMAN AND ATOM BOMB

  Oslo, July 13.  Joe, those Goldman messages were VERY interesting.  Reasonable
men can differ now on whether he did the right thing, but it was Truman who had
to make the decisions.  Looking at the record, no one can say they were taken
lightly.
  As I and others have noted, the fact is that the Japanese surrendered after
the bombs were dropped.  What would have been bad would have been if they had
not.  Had the Emporer sided with the military commanders who wanted to continue
the war, I doubt that anyone today would be criticizing the destruction of
Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  There would be even greater tragedies to discuss.
  I certainly do not recall any criticism of Truman's decisions among those of
us who were scheduled for the Japanese invasion.  (Those who criticize Truman
might try placing themselves in our shoes.)
   As to demonstrations, I might note that these have been considered many
times in thinking about how we might use nuclear weapons in Europe.  The
conclusion was always the same: to be credible, you would have to hit a military
target. Fortunately, we have not found out whether this was right or not.
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway
  PS  I would hope that some of the enthusiasm for debating Hiroshima will
survive to its 50th anniversary, when we can expect a lot of discussion in the
media.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Jul 1994 15:19:32 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: 50th: FIGHTING IN NORMANDY

  Oslo, July 12, 1994
  Fifty years ago we were bogged down in Normandy.  Montgomery was having
trouble getting going near Caen.  The American forces were finding it tough
going among the hedgerows. Part of the problem was that we had spent so much
time training for getting ashore that we never got around to giving thought to
what we would do after we got there.   To reduce the resistance, Eisenhower and
his commanders made ruthless use of bombing.  We also made generous use of
artillery.  We succeeded in killing a number of Germans but also a great many
Frenchmen.  The destruction of the cities was a terrible sight to behold.
  While a small incident, one experience made a lasting impression upon me and
disturbed my sleep from time to time for many years after the war.  When
inspecting a farm to see what damage some artillery I had directed had caused, I
found a young girl lying dead beside a cow in a barn.  I gradually buried this
in my subconscious and even began to wonder whether I had actually seen this or
only imagined it.  When, however, reading my letters to my parents while
producing my book, I found a reference to this incident.
  Artillery is normally rather impersonal.  You later see a lot of bodies but
cannot be sure whether you played a role in killing them or not.  In the case of
this young girl, I could not be in doubt.
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Jul 1994 07:17:32 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Malaria Remedy

>Wendy Slader <wslader@ACAD.BRYANT.EDU> says,...
>
>This is sort of a "haffassed" WWII question with a side-order of medical
>research...
>
>My uncle served under Gen. Patton and while in North Africa contracted
>Malaria.  The story goes that he was given nothing to eat for weeks but
>instead was gorged with pineapple juice hour after hour, day after day.
>Can anyone tell me why mass quantities of pineapple juice would be given
>as a remedy for malaria?   Apparently it worked--he did survive.
>Just curious.  Thanks.    WS

Hi neighbor, I used to know the nurse practitioner at Bryant in the
late 70's and early 80's. She died of ALS in 86'. 'Said it was her
most dreaded ailment,...

I really don't know anything about it, but isn't pineapple juice rich
in electrolytes such as potassium and magnesium, and isn't dehydration
a major concern with malaria?

 -Al

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
ALAN WILD, LAN MGR.  FATHER OF 1.556           VOICE:          (401) 792-2611
ACC - Lippitt - URI  American Legion Post 102. FAX:            (401) 792-5479
Kingston, RI  02881                            Bitnet:           AWild@URIACC
                                               Internet: AWild@URIACC.URI.EDU

  Television, in its present form, makes it difficult for Americans to
understand different cultures. It's a medium that conveys emotion better
than reason. Abstractions as powerful as religions and ideologies, deficits,
languages, and collective memories and loyalties just don't make it.

                                      - Graham Fraser (Toronto Globe & Mail)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Jul 1994 07:29:46 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: More on: the Nagasaki bomb

Jack says,...

>Another villian in the plot is the Soviet Union.  As I understand it, the
>Japanese had put out peace feelers to the Soviets but Uncle Joe stalled and
>never passed the information on to the West.  Perhaps we should be
>condemning Uncle Joe also.
>

I don't know the communication that went on, but you can be sure the
Japanese were trying to find an "honorable" way out of the war, if any.
The squirming vermon "of the time" (a little pc there - just a little)
were looking for something that would cushion their pride when they had
to capitulate, and they had no other choice: surrender in disgrace, or
make an end-run through Stalin hoping to reach some honorable armistice.

The fact that Uncle Joe was indeed Stallin',... sorry,... merely
places his diplomacy on the political right. I say good for him. There
must be a deterant to initiating war as there must be for local crime.
International anarchy must end. Make the price higher! God $#%& Hell.
A bitter example isn't quickly forgotten. One just must always remember
that the price of peace is eternal vigilance; creating too much bitterness
can rebound. ('thought I'd anticipate) -Al

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
ALAN WILD, LAN MGR.  FATHER OF 1.556           VOICE:          (401) 792-2611
ACC - Lippitt - URI  American Legion Post 102. FAX:            (401) 792-5479
Kingston, RI  02881                            Bitnet:           AWild@URIACC
                                               Internet: AWild@URIACC.URI.EDU

  Television, in its present form, makes it difficult for Americans to
understand different cultures. It's a medium that conveys emotion better
than reason. Abstractions as powerful as religions and ideologies, deficits,
languages, and collective memories and loyalties just don't make it.

                                      - Graham Fraser (Toronto Globe & Mail)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Jul 1994 14:59:51 CET
From:    "LTC Donnell, Doug" <4atf@PIRMASENS-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Re: Bob Stevens

Rick -

Don't know if you've had any success yet in your quest for the Bob
Stevens books.  Several good suggestions have already been posted.
You might want to try the Air Force Association.  As has already been
said, they used to publish Bob's cartoons as a monthly feature.  They
advertise his books from time to time, but flipping through a few
recent issues of AF Magazine, I didn't see one of the ads.  Anyway,
their tel number is 1-800-727-3337.

Sorry to have taken so long to get this posted.  I've really been up
to my proverbial rear end in aligators lately.  Good luck.

                     Doug Donnell (KD4MD/DA2DO)
                     Ruppertsweiler, Germany

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Jul 1994 09:48:24 -0500
From:    Mike Oaks <moaks@KSCMAIL.KENNESAW.EDU>
Subject: Re: 50th: FIGHTING IN NORMANDY

In message Wed, 13 Jul 1994 15:19:32 +0200,
  JOHN AUSLAND <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>  writes:

> Oslo, July 12, 1994
> Fifty years ago we were bogged down in Normandy.
>
TEXT DELETED MAO
   Regards, John Ausland/Oslo> Norway

John,
    A couple of months ago, I believe you mentioned the possibility of doing
your book "Memoirs From Home" in an electronic format and then having it
available to us on the Listserv?? Has anything come of that idea as of yet??
Thanks,
    Mike Oaks
 ___________________________________________________________________
|                                                                   |
|    Michael A. Oaks                 Music: A way to mark times     |
|    Kennesaw State College                 stepping stones through |
|    moaks@kscmail.kennesaw.edu             your calendar of life.  |
|    Tel: (404) 423-6049  Fax (404) 423-6541   ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~  MAO |
|___________________________________________________________________|

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Jul 1994 09:37:00 PDT
From:    "Wsiaki, Bill" <WSIAKI@BLDGEDUC.LAN1.UMANITOBA.CA>
Subject: No Mail

I have not received any mail from the WWII-L list since last Thursday.  Is
there a technical problem or have I been dropped from the list?

Bill Wsiaki

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Jul 1994 11:17:07 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>
Subject: Me-262 reconstructions

For those who are following this story, and who don't read
rec.aviation.military, here is the latest on the Me-262 reconstruction.

            - Dan      <dan.ford@unh.edu>

---------- Forwarded message ----------

262 FLIES AGAIN - more

Few warbird enthusiasts will fail to agree that the Messerschmitt Me-262
Schwalbe was the world's first truly operational jet fighter. The hard
facts of war forced the Messerschmitt engineers to surpass all their
previous efforts to create a simple, sturdy airframe able to withstand the
rigors of highspeed combat. They did not know they were also blazing the
way for the North American F-86 and the Boeing B-47, both of which used
the Messerschmitt swept-wing experience to dominate the cold war.

Of the total production, only nine airframes are known to exist, all in
museums and none of them even close to being airworthy. The only
production two seat Me 262 known to exist is currently residing with
Classic Fighter Industries and is being used as the reference point for
the reverse engineering effort. This aircraft, based at the Willow Grove
Naval Air Station, sat outside for decades and is terribly corroded.

The aircraft will be fabricated "exactly as it was" during the conflict
with attention to detail including every minor item like
hydraulic-fittings, electrical connections and all mechanical elements.
Concessions have been made only in the interest of safety. The single
major change to the design is in replacing the very early Jumo 004 engines
with two of the most reliable engines ever produced, the General Electric
J-85/CJ610. The Juno 004 did not have the advantage of high temperature
metal alloy construction and was rated only for an average life of twenty
hours or less.

Where are we now? For all five aircraft, we have completed 90% of the wing
rib sets, 50% of the spars, all the cockpit sections including flight
control and instrument consoles. Additionally, two major fuselage
assemblies are now assembled less the nose and tail cone along with many
smaller fabricated parts.

We are very fortunate to have a perfectionist Master Craftsman at the very
top of the elite group of professional aircraft builders
 taking on the project in conjunction with Classic Fighter Industries and
Air Victory Museum. The project has been underway for a year and has a
projected roll-out date in 1996-7.

The aircraft that is being disassembled must also be "put back together"
again for static display. We would be most appreciative for any donations
you might care to give for its restoration. Please make checks payable to
"Air Victory Museum, Inc. - Me 262 restoration" and mail to 5801 Magnolia
Avenue, Pennsauken, NJ 08109, USA. Air Victory Museum is a tax exempt
museum and has been granted 501(3)(c) status. All checks received will be
acknowledged with appropriate receipt for your records.

If you are interested in owning the last Me 262 that is available, be
prepared to sign a contract for $1,450,000. The unit can be constructed in
either single seat or two-place configurations.

We will continue to e-mail status reports on the restoration effort. For
additional information, please refer to Warbirds Worldwide, Journal 29.

Roger Allen
76100.1527@compuserve.com
allenr1@iia.org

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Jul 1994 10:35:11 CST
From:    "ROBERT ROY(Southern Illinois University)" <CA0032@SIUCVMB.SIU.EDU>
Subject: <No subject given>

 Sorry to use list for personnel message,but I have  tried 5 times to get
 this to 4ATAF, and it fails every time ??  Hope he sees it. What did I do
 wrong?


SIUCVMB.SIU.EDU unable to deliver following mail to recipient(s):
    <4ataf@PIRMASENS-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
SIUCVMB.SIU.EDU received negative reply:
550 (USER) Unknown user name in "4ataf@PIRMASENS-EMH1.ARMY.MIL"

           ** Text of Mail follows **
Received: from SIUCVMB.SIU.EDU by SIUCVMB.SIU.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R1)
   with BSMTP id 2114; Fri, 01 Jul 94 14:22:41 CST
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 94 14:22:40 CST
From: CA0032@SIUCVMB.SIU.EDU
To:   4ataf@PIRMASENS-EMH1.ARMY.MIL

Subject:info

  SORRY I TOOK SO LONG TO ANSWER, EOY PROCESSING HERE AT SIU, AND I AM THE
STAFF ID MANAGER.  THANKS FOR THE HINT ON FTP BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU AT MARSHALL
UNIVERSITY,GREAT FILES.  YOUR ID IS 4ATF, DOES THIS HAVE ANY CONNECTION TO
4TH ALLIED TACTICAL AIR FORCE ? I WAS STATIONED AT RAMSTEIN AB IN 1973-75
WITH USAFE DATA PROCESSING,7102 CSS,AND WE SUPPORTED THE 4ATAF. GREAT BUNCH OF
GUYS, CANADA,UK,GERMAN, AND US.  THERE WAS A SITE CALLED "THE CAVE" NEAR
PERMASENS, WOULD THAT BE YOUR SITE.  AS IT HAS BEEN ALMOST 20 YEARS THIS
HAS PROBABLY ALL CHANGED. AAFCE AND 4ATAF WHERE BOTH AT RAMSTEIN. I LOVED
DUTY IN GERMANY,TRAVELED EVERYWHERE !!  I DID MOST OF MY SOCILIZING WITH A
GROUP OF CANADIAN NCO'S AT A CLUB CALLED 'CANADA CLUB" NEAR THE GUN CLUB
AT RAMSTEIN, GREAT BUNCH OF GUYS, INTO TRAVEL,HISTORY,ETC.!!  SURE BRINGS
BACK MEMORIES SEEING 4ATAF, ALL GOOD ONES,WHISH I WAS THERE !!


                         BOB ROY(EX-USAF)
                         CA0032@SIUCVMB.SIU.EDU
                         SOUTHERN ILLINOIS UNIVERSITY
                         CARBONDALE, ILL.  62901

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Jul 1994 12:45:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Parachutes

I was watching a TV show last night that showed film of German paratroopers
jumping from Ju 52/3m aircraft.  One of the things that I noticed was that
the parachutes did not seem to have shroud lines to allow the paratrooper
to "steer" himself, i.e., the paratrooper seemed to hang at an angle from
the chute.  Was this true and if so, why?


-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Jul 1994 13:10:09 -0500
From:    John Davis <JBDML@OSBM6.OSBM.STATE.NC.US>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 13-JUL-1944

On 13-JUL-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The US VIII Corps continues pushing south. In the VII Corps
     sector the 9th Division makes headway, while the rest of the line is held
     up by German resistance. The XIX Corps continues its struggle for St Lo.
     In the V Corps sector, the 5th Division replaces the 1st Division on the
     line. The 1st Division moves over to the VII Corps sector. The 4th
     Armoured Division lands at Normandy.

Eastern Front - The 3rd Belorussian Front captures Vilna, the capital of
     Lithuania after fierce street fighting. The German Army Group North is in
     still greater danger of being cut off completely.

Italian Front - The US 34th Division of the IV Corps pushes three miles
     towards Leghorn. The 4th Moutain Division of the French Expeditionary
     Corps captures San Gimignano. The 2nd Moroccan Division moves close to
     Poggibonsi. The New Zealand 2nd Division captures Monte Castiglione
     Maggiore.

New Guinea - On Numfoor Island, the US parachutists make contact with the main
     Japanese force northeast of Namber airfield. In the Aitape sector on the
     mainland, the Americans counter-attack and succeed in reaching the
     Driniumor river at two points.

Naval Dispatches
----------------
US submarine HERRING (SS-133) sunk, Pacific Ocean area.

The Homefront
-------------
Windsors In US - The Duke and Duchess of Windsor has arrived in Miami, Florida
     from the Bahamas. They subsequently fly to New York city.

Band Leader Arrested As Draft Dodger - Band leader, Teddy Powell has been
     arrested in Detroit as a draft dodger. He is charged with sending a case
     of whiskey and a hat to a New York draft board official who later
     approved a deferment for him. [Editor's note - I wonder what they did
     with the official who took the "bribe"? Must have been a mighty nice
     hat.]

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  jbd@osbm.state.nc.us
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Jul 1994 12:20:27 CDT
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Parachutes

The German Fallschirmjager parachute harness was a real problem.  All
the shroud lines went to one point above the trooper, and they were
connected to the body harness via some straps.  Basically it left the
paratrooper without any real control over the chute.  The wierd angle it
hung the trooper was a problem.  Unlike other countries methods and
equipments, which allowed the troop to do what is called in the US Army
a PLF--parachute landing fall--on the side of the body with a roll--they
basically went leg, knee, elbow, head when they landed.  This is why
German paratroopers wore elbow and knee pads.  If anyone ever meets a
German Fallschirmjager who jumped shake his hand, for he is a braver and
luckier man than you.  TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Jul 1994 10:28:46 PDT
From:    Alan Hepburn <alan@BERLIOZ.NSC.COM>
Subject: Re: Parachutes

Jack McKillop asks:

"I was watching a TV show last night that showed film of German paratroopers
jumping from Ju 52/3m aircraft.  One of the things that I noticed was that
the parachutes did not seem to have shroud lines to allow the paratrooper
to "steer" himself, i.e., the paratrooper seemed to hang at an angle from
the chute.  Was this true and if so, why?"

The German paratrooper wore a harness that had the risers connected
at a point on the small of the back.  They were trained to land on
their knees, and subsequently spent a lot of time looking for a real soft
spot to land on!

I've got a book at home about the history of airborne troops that explains
this, but unfortunately I can't recall the name, or the authour's name
right now.

---

Alan Hepburn             |"That men do not learn very much from the lessons
National Semiconductor   | of history is the most  important of all lessons
Santa Clara, Ca          |that history has to teach."
alan@berlioz.nsc.com     |                                 -- Aldous Huxley

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Jul 1994 13:51:34 -0400
From:    Ron Babuka <wrb1@CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: Re: Parachutes

>I was watching a TV show last night that showed film of German paratroopers
>jumping from Ju 52/3m aircraft.  One of the things that I noticed was that
>the parachutes did not seem to have shroud lines to allow the paratrooper
>to "steer" himself, i.e., the paratrooper seemed to hang at an angle from
>the chute.  Was this true and if so, why?
>
>From the pictures that I have seen the paratrooper hangs from one shroud
that seems to attach to a harness on the back.  From stories that I have
heard this lead to poor directional control and moor injuries than allied
para units.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka                                         National Warplane Museum
Cornell University                                 Geneseo, New York
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Jul 1994 14:18:01 -0500
From:    Doc Benway <c635421@SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Parachutes

This discussion on parachutes is interesting, and I was wondering what
alternative fibers the Germans used for 'chutes later in the war. The
Americans, cut off from the silk outlets in Asia, turned to hemp for
making their parachutes. (It's ironic that Mr. Drug War Bush's life was
saved by a hemp parachute)

Did the Germans employ the same alternative source of fiber?

Jon Sanders
University of Missouri

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Jul 1994 16:31:11 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET>
Subject: B-25 H model

Does anybody know anything about an H model B-25 in the Chicago area?

A Name, location, and phone number would be much appreciated.


  =========================================================================
  | DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
  |                                  | Computers in Business & Education. |
  | Recently returned from my second | Education:  Curriculum development.|
  |   extended stay in Prague.       |    International Education, TEFL.  |
  | Working on second book about     | Central Europe:  Post revolution   |
  |   Prague and new Czech Republic  |    economic, social, political     |
  |   and a book about the B-25      |    problems and opportunities.     |
  |   in WWII.                       | B-25 in WWII.                      |
  | E-Mail:                          | Free lance writing and editing.    |
  |   USA:  BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET    | Stamp collecting.                  |
  =========================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Jul 1994 19:59:50 -0500
From:    "Danny G. Cox" <dcox01@OZARKS.SGCL.LIB.MO.US>
Subject: Bomb Transportation

How were the bombs transfered to the Enola Gay?
Were they transported on a destroyer? The Jefferson City?
If so, was the Jefferson City sunk by Japanese submarines shortly
afterwards?

+==================================+
|   DAN COX                        |
|   REPUBLIC, MO                   |
|   dcox01@ozarks.sgcl.lib.mo.us   |
+==================================+

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 Jul 1994 18:38:05 -0700
From:    Ed Kettler <deradler@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Bomb Transportation

Dan,

The ship which carried the bomb for the Enola Gay was the USS
Indianapolis which was sunk between Saipan and the Philipines with great
loss of life by a Japanese sub.  Most of the casualties were due to
drowning and exposure during the several days in the rafts before
rescue.  There are several books on this sinking.  According to J.
Rohwer's Chronology of the War at Sea 1939-1945, I-58 (Captain Hashimoto)
sank Indianapolis on the night of 29-30 July 1945 with two hits from a
spread of 6 torpedoes E of Luzon.  316 of 1199 rescued between 2 and 8 Aug.

Ed Kettler                                       deradler@netcom.com


On Wed, 13 Jul 1994, Danny G. Cox wrote:

> How were the bombs transfered to the Enola Gay?
> Were they transported on a destroyer? The Jefferson City?
> If so, was the Jefferson City sunk by Japanese submarines shortly
> afterwards?
>
> +==================================+
> |   DAN COX                        |
> |   REPUBLIC, MO                   |
> |   dcox01@ozarks.sgcl.lib.mo.us   |
> +==================================+
>

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 12 Jul 1994 to 13 Jul 1994
*************************************************

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Status: O

There are 18 messages totalling 1021 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. [INF] USAAF 14-17 JUL 44
  2. INF: 50 Years Ago - 14-JUL-1944
  3. INF: USN Chronology 07-14-94
  4. MEDIA: PC at the Smithsonian cont'd (2)
  5. GEN: PRODUCING AND MARKETING LETTERS HOME
  6. Correction-Trans./Bomb
  7. B-29 in Greenland (4)
  8. Bomb Transport (3)
  9. USS INDIANAPOLIS / JEFFERSON CITY
 10. want: books
 11. JEFFERSON CITY cruiser sunk in WWII?  NO.
 12. USS INDIANAPOLIS / JEFFERSON CITY/ SAVO

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Jul 1994 07:25:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 14-17 JUL 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
14 - 17 JULY 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  P-61, Northrop Black Widow

FRIDAY, 14 JULY 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 49 P-40s pound enemy forces in the
Myitkyina vicinity; 38 P-51s and P-47s hit bridges at Mohnyin, Kadu, Henu,
and Mawlu, bomb supplies at Nyaungbintba, support ground forces near
Myitkyina, bomb a rice mill at Mohnyin, and hit several buildings at Hopin.
In India, the detachment of the 11th Combat Cargo Squadron, 3d Combat Cargo
Group (attached to 443d Troop Carrier Group), operating from Sookerating with
C-47s returns to base at Dinjan; and the 315th Troop Carrier Squadron, 443d
Troop Carrier Group, moves from Moran to Sookerating with C-47s, the squadron
also sends a detachment to operate from Ledo.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, fighter-bombers and B-25s hit a
fighter strip N of Changsha, artillery positions at Leiyang, the town of
Sungpai, and road and river traffic from Hengyang to Yuhsien and from
Sienning to Tungshan; also attacked are various targets of opportunity around
the towns of Hengyang, Changsha, and Chaling; during the night fighter-
bombers blast Pailochi Airfield, destroying 20+ enemy aircraft; B-25s bomb
roads in the Tengchung area; and B-25s and P-40s pound railroad yards at
Siangsiang.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): With the conversion of the 55th
Fighter Group from P-38s to P-51s, the Eighth acquires a majority of P-51
groups to provide longer-range high-altitude escort for the heavy bombers.
Conversion to P-51s will continue until by the end of the year every group
except 1 will be equipped with them.
  Mission 472: In a morning mission 319 of 359 B-17s drop 3,700 containers of
supplies to French interior forces in S France; they claim 5-2-2 Luftwaffe
aircraft; 15 B-17s are damaged. Escort is provided by 465 P-47s and P-51s;
they claim 4-0-1 Luftwaffe aircraft.
  Mission 473: During the evening 131 B-24s are dispatched to hit airfields
in France; 54 hit Montdidier Airfield and 39 hit Peronne Airfield; 9 B-24s
are damaged. 40 other B-24s fail to bomb because of failure of blind-bombing
equipment. Escort is provided by 79 P-38s and P-51s; 1 P-38 is damaged beyond
repair.
  94 of 100 P-38s fly fighter-bomber missions against rail targets E and SE
of Paris; they claim 2-0-0 Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 P-38 is lost (pilot is MIA).

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, weather again curtails
operations; 62 B-26s and A-20s, using Oboe, bomb a railway embankment at
Bourth and rail bridge at Merey; fighters provide escort and fly armed
reconnaissance over widespread areas of NW France, attacking bridges, trains,
rail lines, and military transport targets; 85 enemy fighters give battle
near Brezolles and Alencon; 6 fighters are claimed by US fighters, against 5
missing from the IX Fighter Command; the IX Tactical Air Command strafes and
bombs defended positions ahead of the US First Army; and fighters cut rail
lines in the L'Aigle-Alencon area, bomb troop concentrations near Periers,
and marshalling yards at Chateaudun and Aube-sur-Rile.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 430+ B-17s and B-24s attack 4
oil refineries at Budapest and Petfurdo, Hungary and the marshalling yard at
Mantua, Italy; P-51s and P-38s provide escort; P-51s fly an uneventful sweep
of the Budapest area; and P-38s strafe trains N of La Spezia and dive-bomb
Ghedi Airfield in Italy.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium bombers
concentrate on Po River Valley bridges; 600 feet (183 m) (2 center spans) of
the Taglio di Po road bridge and 1 span of the Piacenza rail bridge are
destroyed, and damaging hits are scored on the Corbola road and railroad
bridges; fighter-bombers again hit gun positions and lines of communication
in and N of the battle areas while light bombers attack supplies; HQ XII
Fighter Command moves from Algiers, Algeria to Caserta; HQ 3d
Photographic Group (Reconnaissance) and 23d Photographic Reconnaissance
Squadron move from Viterbo and Alghero, Sardinia respectively to Borgo,
Corsica with F-5s; and the detachment of the 12th Photographic Reconnaissance
Squadron, 3d Photographic Group (Reconnaissance) moves from Follonica to
Cecina with F-5s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): P-47s again hit Tinian Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: B-24s continue to
blast Yap Island. Oil reservoirs and wells at Boela, Ceram Island are bombed
and strafed by A-20s and B-24s and B-25s attack barge facilities and gun
positions at Lautem, Timor Island. On the Vogelkop Peninsula of New Guinea,
P-61s hit airfields while B-25s bomb a barge terminal at Kokas; A-20s hit
Japanese forces at Sauri and bomb the airfield at But; fighter-bombers
support ground forces in the Aitape area along the Driniumor River and
Koronal Creek and blast troop concentrations near Afua; and HQ 475th Fighter
Group and 433d Fighter Squadron move from Hollandia to Biak Island with
P-38s.

SATURDAY, 15 JULY 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 38 P-40s continue support of
ground forces in the Myitkyina area; 60+ P-47s and P-51s attack bridges at
Manla, Henu, and Mawlu, sweep the Lashio, Katha, and Talawgyi areas, and hit
a motor pool at Kadu and targets of opportunity around Sangin and Mohnyin;
and 20 B-25s attack the Myitkyina area and hit bridges and a supply area at
Mawhun.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 100+ B-25s, P-40s, and P-51s blast
the towns of Sinshih, Chuchou, Siangtan, Siangsiang, Sungpai, and Chaling,
concentrating on military and railroad installations and river shipping;
villages, troop concentrations, and river craft are attacked N and W of
Hengyang and from Chaling to Yuhsien; in the Salween area 26 P-40s support
Chinese forces and 12 B-25s bomb Mangshih and Lungling; and 12 B-25s and
P-40s bomb railroad yards at Hsuchang, causing considerable damage.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 474: 169 P-38s and P-47s
make fighter-bomber attacks on enemy transport SE of Paris; 2 P-38s and 1
P-47s are lost; 1 P-38 is damaged beyond repair and 10 P-38s and 2 P-47s
are damaged; 4 pilots are MIA.
  Mission 475: 6 of 6 B-17s drop leaflets in France during the night.
  27 B-24s fly CARPETBAGGER missions to France during the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, weather cancels most
operations but 4 B-26s (92 others abort) hit the L'Aigle rail bridge during
the afternoon; 3 fighter-bombers fly an uneventful sweep; fighters of the IX
Tactical Air Command fly area cover and bomb infantry, artillery, a
marshalling yard, railroad, and a bridge in the Saint-Lo, Argentan, and
Falaise areas.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Rumania, 600+ B-17s and
B-24s bomb 4 oil refineries in the Ploesti area and the Teleajenul pumping
station; and P-51s and P-38s fly 300+ escort sorties.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, the medium bomber
campaign against Po River Valley bridges (Operation MALLORY MAJOR) reaches a
successful conclusion (though the interdiction program against the bridges is
subsequently continued on an expanded scale) as most of the rail and road
bridges in the target area are destroyed or severely damaged by previous
attacks and raids which struck bridges at Bozzolo, Desenzano de Garda,
Cremona, Borgoforte, Ostiglia, Polesella, Sermide, Ferrara, Aulla,
Filattiera, Ficarolo, and Chiavari and the marshalling yard at Villafranca di
Verona; fighter-bombers attack road bridges N of the battleline and hit gun
positions, roads, motor transport, and other targets, while supporting ground
forces slowly advancing N along a line extending E from the coast below
Leghorn; the 12th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, 3d Photographic Group
(Reconnaissance), moves from Voltone to Follonica with F-5s (a detachment is
operating from Cecina); the 84th, 85th and 97th Bombardment Squadrons
(Light), 47th Bombardment Group (Light), move from Ombrone Airfield to
Poretta Airfield, Corsica with A-20s; and the 314th Fighter Squadron, 324th
Fighter Group, moves from Castro to Corsica with P-47s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): P-47s bomb and strafe Tinian
Island and B-24s, staging through Eniwetok Atoll, hit Truk Atoll.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: B-24s blast Yap
Island, scoring numerous hits in the town area and on a radio station and
barracks area. In New Guinea, B-24s, penetrating a heavy weather front, bomb
the airfield on Efman Island while B-25s hit enemy forces along Korrido
Anchorage, and A-20s blast gun emplacements on an island off Manokwari;
B-25s, A-20s, and fighter-bombers again pound troop concentrations over a
wide area around Wewak; and the 431st Fighter Squadron, 475th Fighter Group,
moves from Hollandia to Biak Island with P-38s.

SUNDAY, 16 JULY 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 27 P-40s continue to hit forces in
the Myitkyina area; 20+ P-51s and P-47s attack railroad bridges at Namkwin,
Manla, and Hopin, and hit general targets of opportunity in the Hopin area;
12 B-25s bomb the town of Maingna and bridges at Mohnyin. In India, HQ 12th
Bombardment Group (Medium) moves from Pandaveswar to Fenny.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 23 B-24s pound Changsha, causing
heavy damage; 40 P-51s and P-40s hit river shipping at Changsha, attack
targets of opportunity S of Hengyang, and bomb the building area at Ikiawan;
and the 449th Fighter Squadron, 51st Fighter Group, moves from Kweilin to
Chengkung with P-38s.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 476: 1,087 bombers and 712
fighters are dispatched to hit targets in Germany; 11 bombers and 3 fighters
are lost:
  1. Of 407 B-17s, 213 hit an aircraft engine plant at Munich, 54 hit
Augsburg, 52 hit Stuttgart and 50 hit 2 targets of opportunity; they claim
2-3-2 Luftwaffe aircraft; 10 B-17s are lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 112
damaged; 2 airmen are KIA, 7 WIA and 81 MIA. Escort is provided by 240 P-38s,
P-47s and P-51s; 1 P-51 is lost (pilot is MIA).
  2. Of 238 B-17s, 206 hit Stuttgart and 2 hit a target of opportunity; 1
B-17 is lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 45 damaged; 1 airman is WIA and 10
MIA. Escort is provided by 214 P-38s, P-47s and P-51s; 1 P-51 is lost (pilot
is MIA).
  3. 407 of 442 B-24s hit the marshalling yards at Saarbrucken; 2 B-24s are
damaged beyond repair and 45 damaged; 1 airman is KIA and 3 WIA.  Escort is
provided by 169 P-38s and P-47s; 1 P-38 is lost and 1 damaged beyond repair.
  Mission 477: 5 of 5 B-17s drop leaflets in France during the night.
  24 B-24s fly CARPETBAGGER missions during the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Major General Paul L Williams,
Commanding General IX Troop Carrier Command, arrives in Italy from the UK,
and activates the Provisional Troop Carrier Division which will take part in
the invasion of S France.
  In France, about 375 B-26s and A-20s, during morning and evening
operations, bomb strongpoints in the Saint-Lo area, bridges in the frontline
area, and bridges and a fuel dump SE of Rennes; and fighters escort the
bombers and fly armed reconnaissance over the frontlines in the Chateaudun-
Orleans-Tours areas. In England, a detachment of the 422d Night Fighter
Squadron, 71st Fighter Wing, based at Scorton, begins operating from Ford
with P-61s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Austria, around 380 bombers
attack oil and aircraft targets in the Vienna area, bombing Munchendorf
Airfield, Winterhafen oil depot, Vienna marshalling yard, and Wiener Neudorf
engine factory; P-51s and P-38s fly 150+ sorties in escort while 132 other
P-51s sweep the Vienna area; 100+ fighters oppose the raids; 10 AAF aircraft
are lost and several others are missing; AAF claims of fighters shot down
total 30+.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium bombers hit
bridges in the Po River Valley at Peschiera del Garda, Mantua, Torre Beretti,
Piacenza, Casale Monferrato, and Bressana Bottarone; fighter-bombers hit
railroads and a bridge just N of the battleline as US Fifth Army forces take
territory SE of Leghorn and push to within sight of the Arno River Valley;
British Eighth Army elements take Arezzo and thrust through to the Arno River.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): P-47s continue to pound Tinian
Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: B-24s continue
bombing Yap Island and also hit Atamboea Airfield on Timor Island. In New
Guinea, other B-24s pound AA positions at Manokwari; fighter-bombers bomb
supply dumps N of Moemi and attack shipping in the Kokas-Babo area; bombers
and fighters again hit troop and supply concentrations in the Wewak sector;
troop carrier missions to forward bases, especially Biak Island, increase;
and the 82d Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron, 71st Tactical Reconnaissance
Group, moves from Owi, Schouten Islands to Biak Island with P-39s.

MONDAY, 17 JULY 1944

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 60+ P-40s, P-47s, and P-51s
continue to hit forces in the Myitkyina area, pound Tagwin, and bomb a
marshalling yard at Mohnyin. The 81st Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 12th
Bombardment Group (Medium), moves from Madhaiganj Airfield to Fenny, India
with B-25s.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 22 B-24s bomb Changsha; 7 B-25s and
21 P-40s pound railroad yards at Kaifeng; and 6 B-25s and 12 P-40s hit
Tengchung.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 478: In the morning 670
bombers and 472 fighters are dispatched to hit tactical targets in France; 1
bomber and 1 fighter are lost:
  1. Of 331 B-17s, 37 hit Joigny la Roche, 36 hit Jussy, 35 hit Auxerre, 35
hit Peronne, 33 hit Ham-sur-Somme, 32 hit Anizy-le-Chateau, 25 hit Frevent,
12 hit Tergnier and 11 hit Eu Bridges; 12 hit Doullens road junction, 12 hit
Hesdin fuel dump, 12 hit Frevent railroad and road junction, 11 hit Laon
marshalling yard and 15 hit targets of opportunity; 1 B-17 is lost, 1 damaged
beyond repair and 64 damaged; 3 airmen are WIA and 9 MIA.
  2. Of 339 B-24s, 58 hit Rilly la Montagne dump, 52 hit Belfort marshalling
yard; 36 hit Gien, 34 hit Coulanges, 34 hit Neuvy-sur-Loire, 32 hit Sully, 30
hit Nanteuil and 10 hit Le Soulons Bridges; 11 hit St Dizier Airfield and 5
hit targets of opportunity; 3 B-24s are damaged beyond repair and 54 damaged;
2 airmen are KIA and 7 WIA.
  Escort for the 2 groups above is 433 P-38s, P-47s and P-51s; 1 P-47 is lost
(pilot is MIA); elements of 4 fighter groups afterwards strafe ground
targets, claiming 23 locomotives, 18 trucks, and 55 train cars destroyed.
  Mission 479: During the evening 34 of 69 B-17s and 106 of 115 B-24s attack
12 V-weapon sites in the Pas de Calais area; 3 B-24s are damaged beyond
repair and 23 B-24s and 28 B-17s are damaged; 1 airman is KIA and 5 WIA.
Escort is provided by 209 of 227 P-51s; 1 is damaged beyond repair.
  Mission 480: 5 of 5 B-17s drop leaflets in France and the Netherlands
during the night.
  16 B-24s participate in CARPETBAGGER missions during the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): With operations limited by weather
in France, 69 B-26s hit fuel dumps at Rennes while 37 A-20s strike fuel dumps
at Bruz and a marshalling yard at Dol-de-Bretagne; fighters escort
transports, fly area cover, attack fuel dumps and landing field at Angers,
dive-bomb defenses at Coutances in support of the US First Army, attack
Nevers marshalling yard, and hit troop concentrations in support of the First
Army assault in the Saint-Lo area.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In France, 162 B-24s attack a
marshalling yard and railroad bridges at Avignon and railroad bridges at
Arles and Tarascon; P-51s and P-38s provide escort.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium bombers
concentrate on Po River Valley bridges, hitting road and rail bridges and
viaducts at or near Alessandria, Ostiglia, Bogliasco, Borgoforte, Moline,
Imperia, Asti, Mollere, and Casale Monferrato; fighter-bombers continue to
hit targets N of the battle area, concentrating on bridges and rail lines,
while US Fifth Army elements take Luciana, and reach the Arno River Valley,
but make little progress toward Leghorn; British Eighth Army forces pursue
the enemy toward Florence.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): P-47s bomb and strafe Tinian
Island. 48 B-25s from Makin Island stage through Engebi Island, Eniwetok
Atoll to bomb Ponape Island; 47 of the B-25s (1 aborts) attack airfield
facilities, AA positions, and other targets throughout the atoll.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: Operations against
the Caroline Islands are restricted to snooper missions against Yap Island
and Woleai Atoll and Fuiloro, Timor Island is bombed by B-25s. In New Guinea,
B-24s bomb gun positions around Manokwari and airfield at Moemi; B-25s sink a
large lugger in Kaiboes Bay; A-20s, B-25s, and P-39s hit troop concentrations
and supplies between Aitape and Wewak at Abau, Parakaviu, Nyaparake, and E of
Tadji and bomb Boram airfield and Cape Moem.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Jul 1994 07:32:05 -0500
From:    John Davis <JBDML@OSBM6.OSBM.STATE.NC.US>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 14-JUL-1944

On 14-JUL-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The US 30th Division captures Pont-Hebert after a bitter
     struggle. The 35th Division reaches the road between Pont-Hebert and St
     Lo.

Eastern Front - The 1st Ukraine Front initiates an offensive in Poland, in the
     region of Lvov. Further north, units of the 1st Belorussian Front capture
     Pinsk, east of Brest-Litovsk.

Italian Front - The US 34th Division continues advancing towards Leghorn, with
     the 442nd Regiment taking San Pieve di Luce and the 133rd approaching
     Usigliano. The 9th Division captures Chianni. Units of the French
     Expeditionary Corps capture Poggibonsi.

New Guinea - The Japanese counter-attack on the river Driniumor but are driven
     back.

India - The British XXXIII Corps completes the encirclement and elimination of
     the Japanese along the Uphrul-Imphal road. The IV Corps, who are
     advancing on Tiddim, manages to weaken the Japanese defences through a
     series of attacks by the 5th and 17th Indian Divisions.

Naval Dispatches
----------------
Japanese submarine I-6 sunk by destroyer escort WILLIAM C. MILLER (DE-259),
     Marianas Islands area.

The Homefront
-------------
Pearl Harbor Boards Named - The Army and Navy have named "boards of
     investigation" to inquire into negligence during the Japanese attack on
     Pearl Harbor. These boards are formed by order of Congress.

196,941 War Prisoners in US - The Army says that there are 196,941 Axis war
     prisoners in the United States. These include 146,101 Germans, 50,278
     Italians and 562 Japanese.

Hartford Releases Circus - A Hartford, Conn. Superior Court order gives
     Ringling Brothers and Barnum and Bailey Circus permission to leave
     Hartford after it deposits $1,005,000 in cash and insurance policies to
     cover $1,000,000 in damage claims filed by relatives of victims of the
     July 6 fire.

Joan Blondell Divorced - Actress Joan Blondell has won a divorce in Los
     Angeles from actor Dick Powell on grounds of cruelty.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  jbd@osbm.state.nc.us
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Jul 1994 05:00:40 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 07-14-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
07/14 Fri.  Japanese submarine sunk:
             I-6, by destroyer escort WILLIAM C. MILLER (DE-259), Mari-
              anas Islands area,
              15 d. 18'N., 144 d. 26'E.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Jul 1994 08:19:31 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA: PC at the Smithsonian cont'd

Forgive the length of this piece, but I thought that it was
worthwhile, considering the discussion this event has engendered
in recent weeks.

This editorial is by Arthur H. Sanfelici, the editor of Aviation
History magazine.  This appears in the September 1994 issue,
Volume 5, Number 1, page 6.

Any typos are mine.

Our national repository of things aeronautical is suffering from
a terminal case of PCitis.  The "politically correct" approach
manipulates perceptions so that no person or group can be
offended in any way that can be considered discriminatory.  PC
flourishes in the Washington DC milieu as a tool of the "spin
doctors."

Case in point.  A new exhibit is planned to debut next May in
the Smithsonian Institution's National Air and Space Museum
(NASM) in Washington DC to commemorate the 50th anniversary of
the first dropping of the atomic bomb and the end of World War
II.  It will be called "The Crossroads: The End of World War II,
the Atomic Bomb, and the Origins of the Cold War."  With a focus
on the effects of the dropping of nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and
Nagasaki - and an emphasis on the resultant human suffering it
wrought - the major exhibit is stirring controversy well before
its relatively short eight-month run begins.

The NASM states that the intent of the new exhibit is to
"...provide a crucial public service by *reexamining* the atomic
bombings in the light of the *most thorough scholarship*"
(emphasis added by the author).  The NASM states that the museum
does not intend to join what it describes as a debate over
whether the bomb should have been used or not, but instead plans
to offer the visitor "a much more *nuanced picture*" (emphasis
added by the author) of the decision-making on both sides that
may lead visitors to "reconsider or deepen their understanding
of this controversial topic."

In an overzealous attempt to "be fair" to those who were being
bombed at the end of the war, the museum apparently forgets who
was being bombed at the beginning of it.  Just ask the thousand
US sailors who are still entombed in the battleship "Arizona,"
or those other US servicemen and women who died on the Bataan
Death March, on Corregidor and Wake Islands, and on the Burma
Road.  Or ask the quarter million Chinese who were overrun and
slaughtered in Nanking and elsewhere in the 1930s as Japan began
its predatory expansion.  Just step back into 1941 when an
entire nation was shocked into a war it did not start, and
"Remember Pearl Harbor."

Where does aviation appear in the upcoming aviation museum
display?  Two pieces - one complete aircraft, a Japanese
Yokosuka MXY7 Ohka kamikaze rocket-powered flying bomb hanging
over the entrance; and, at the rear of the exhibit, only the
nose section of one other airplane, the Boeing B-29
Superfortress that dropped the atomic bomb on Hiroshima, the
"Enola Gay."  These few aviation artifacts are included merely
as minor props for a nonaviation morality message.  The rest
consists of videos and artifacts that show the destructive
aftermath of an atomic bomb, intentionally shocking full-size
photos of blast- and radiation-mutilated victims, and charred
personal possessions.  A notice at the entrance will caution
parents that parts of the exhibit may not be suitable for
viewing by children.  All this in a museum Congress mandated to
"memorialize the national development of aviation and space
flight."  This exhibit surely won't.

A storm of protest against the tone of the new exhibit already
has begun.  John T. Correll, editor in chief of "Air Force"
magazine, the official publication of the 200,000-strong Air
Force Association membership, has published a two-part article
urging that the "Enola Gay" be displayed objectively, not as a
pawn in support of a social message.  And veterans groups have
sent a 9,000-name petition to the NASM asking that the "Enola
Gay" either be displayed "proudly and patriotically" or be given
to a museum that will do so.  So far, at least one congressman
has told the NASM to make substantive changes to the exhibit to
address these objectives - let's see what happens.

In her essay collection "Practicing History," Nobel
Prize-winning historian Barbara Tuchman cautions, "We must be
careful as always in the practice of history not to ascribe
meaning and motives as we see them through the lens of
intervening events."  We read that as "Don't put a spin on it,
just present it the way it was."  The "Enola Gay" deserves to be
exhibited in the context of the way it was, not as an instrument
of war but as an instrument of peace - and because of that, an
object of national pride.

And that would be PC - just Plain Correct.

A note at the end of the editorial states: "Smithsonian
Secretary Robert McC. Adams, who instituted political
correctness at the NASM and other museums, retires this month
and is being succeeded by the former chancellor of the
University of California, Ira Michael Heyman.  Let's hope
Secretary Heyman recognizes the validity behind the growing
opposition to the trend set by Mr. Adams and brings about a
return to the mandated direction of the NASM."


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-8760
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-8760

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Jul 1994 14:20:03 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: GEN: PRODUCING AND MARKETING LETTERS HOME

>John,
>    A couple of months ago, I believe you mentioned the possibility of doing
>your book "Memoirs From Home" in an electronic format and then having it
>available to us on the Listserv?? Has anything come of that idea as of yet??
>Thanks,
>    Mike Oaks

I am hoping to complete soon arrangements for the electronic distribution of my
book LETTERS HOME: A WAR MEMOIR in the US - and elsewhere.  I will post a notice
when it is available.

My first printing of 500 copies is now exhausted.  (The last I knew there was
only one copy at Sidney Kramers in Washington, DC.  Telephone 1 800 423 2665.)
I have decided not to do a second printing, because it is too much work to
market it from here.  Hence the electronic version.

For other potential self-publishers, I might add that this has been an
interesting and rewarding challenge.  Production was the easiest part.
Marketing the most difficult.  I got a handy boost from a flattering review in
FRANCE Magazine, published by the French Embassy in Washington.  This not only
boosted the sales at Kramers but attracted considerable media attention.  This
led to excerpts in the L'EXPRESS (the French TIME) and an Associated Press
interview, which appeared in a number of US papers.

I also sold a number of copies through participation in this list and the WWII
forum on Compuserve.  This list also led to brief appearances on Mark Leff's
WHAT WAS HAPPENING 50 YEARS AGO TODAY on CNN between June 1 and 6.

The trouble is that it is not possible to translate much of this publicity into
sales unless you have your book in bookstores.  I made a run at this through the
PUBLISHERS MARKETING ASSOCIATION, without success.

The main advantage of self-publishing is that you can do what you want.  Those
of you who have seen the book will agree that it would have been difficult to
find a trade publisher who would use my format and layout.

Given the feedback I have got, which has been very encouraging, I suspect there
is a publisher somewhere out there would will want one day to republish the book
on paper.  I figure, however, that it will be easier for him or her to find me
than the other way around.

For anyone who would like oneday to see the original letters (I used only a part
of them in the book), I am gradually donating them to the US Army Military
History Institute at Carlisle Barracks.  I will today send those for the
Huertgen Forest and Battle of the Bulge.  I am also sending a number of articles
which I did for the International Herald Tribune, as spinoffs from the book.

  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

  PS  I will be hors de combat for about a week, enjoying the fjord country on
the west coast.  During this period I will be in a NOMAIL mode this list.  I
will reply to any EMAIL when I get back.

  PPS  From time to time, I repeat messages sent to this Internet World War II
list to selected correspondents via EMAIL.  It would be helpful to have
EMAIL messages from them, letting me know if they would like to continue
seeing these.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Jul 1994 08:18:58 -0500
From:    "Danny G. Cox" <dcox01@OZARKS.SGCL.LIB.MO.US>
Subject: Correction-Trans./Bomb

I inadvertantly typed destroyer instead of CRUISER (Jefferson City).  I
had destroyers on my mind.  I had read that when the Jeff City was sunk,
she had been sent out without destroyer escort.

(Dan did not make that error! I confess - I did it!)

Norma L Cox

+==================================+
|   DAN COX                        |
|   REPUBLIC, MO                   |
|   dcox01@ozarks.sgcl.lib.mo.us   |
+==================================+

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Jul 1994 08:26:12 EST
From:    Aldo Hubert <HUBERT@PHYSICAL.UNCG.EDU>
Subject: B-29 in Greenland

Hello All,

Did anyone hear the article on NPR this morning about a B-29 crash in
Greenland somene is trying to rescue?  Apparently (and I emphsize that
word--I was only 1/2 awake to hear the story) a B-29 was flying recon
near the artic circle (spying on the ruskies, I think), became disoriented
due the the lattitude and ended-up in Greenland where it landed (I think
all the crew were rescued intact).  Someone is going to try & repair &
FLY the plane to the US (again apparently the ice well preserved the
plane) before the winter hits.  This person wants to build run-way & is
going to install new engines & make a few other repairs.

Anyone else hear this?


Aldo_Hubert@UNCG.edu


Aldo M. Hubert
University of North Carolina at Greensboro
Greensboro NC 27412

OBESA CANTAVIT

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Jul 1994 11:41:11 EST
From:    rick robinson <LIBRARY@KNOX-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Bomb Transport

====================================================================
 Date:    Wed, 13 Jul 1994 18:38:05 -0700
 From:    Ed Kettler <deradler@NETCOM.COM>
 Subject: Re: Bomb Transportation

 The ship which carried the bomb for the Enola Gay was the USS
 Indianapolis which was sunk between Saipan and the Philipines with great
 loss of life by a Japanese sub.  Most of the casualties were due to
 drowning and exposure during the several days in the rafts before
 rescue.  There are several books on this sinking.  According to J.
 Rohwer's Chronology of the War at Sea 1939-1945, I-58 (Captain Hashimoto)
 sank Indianapolis on the night of 29-30 July 1945 with two hits from a
 spread of 6 torpedoes E of Luzon.  316 of 1199 rescued between 2 and 8 Aug.

 Ed Kettler                                       deradler@netcom.com

 -------------------------------------------------------------------
 > How were the bombs transfered to the Enola Gay?
 > Were they transported on a destroyer? The Jefferson City?
 > If so, was the Jefferson City sunk by Japanese submarines shortly
 > afterwards?
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------
=====================================================================

 I recall the incident of the loss of the Indianapolis.  To continue
   this further, how was the components for the plutonium bomb
   (Fat Man) transported to Tinian?


===>>> Moral Superiority through Superior Firepower <<<===

Rick Robinson/KD4GNK (TSG/KyANG retired)
Tape Librarian, DOIM -- Fort Knox, Kentucky  40121-5000
LIBRARY@KNOX-EMH1.ARMY.MIL/ ROBINSR@IGLOU.COM

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Jul 1994 12:51:46 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: B-29 in Greenland

> Hello All,
>
> Did anyone hear the article on NPR this morning about a B-29 crash in
> Greenland somene is trying to rescue?  Apparently (and I emphsize that
> word--I was only 1/2 awake to hear the story) a B-29 was flying recon
> near the artic circle (spying on the ruskies, I think), became disoriented
> due the the lattitude and ended-up in Greenland where it landed (I think
> all the crew were rescued intact).  Someone is going to try & repair &
> FLY the plane to the US (again apparently the ice well preserved the
> plane) before the winter hits.  This person wants to build run-way & is
> going to install new engines & make a few other repairs.
>
> Anyone else hear this?

If it's the same B-29, I've seen video of the recovery.

The aircraft landed wheels up.  The crew was rescued, but the aircraft
was abandoned.  I believe it went down in or around 1949.

The recovery team (including Air National Guard and Smithsonian)
went to recover the aircraft after an extensive survey.  The aircraft
actually landed in a shallow, mostly frozen, "lake."  (It's better to say
that there was some free standing water on the ground than to claim anything
else).

The aircraft was hoisted onto jacks and the main gear lowered.  To lower
the nose gear, the tail needed to be lowered.  This was done by chopper
hoisting buckets of local "ballast" (rocks and dirt :-) onto the tail
until the nose started to come up.  When it was up far enough, the nose
gear was dropped and the aircraft sat on its gear.

Apparently out of curiousity and even though the props were all bent from
the landing, the crew attempted to start the left outboard engine.  The
engines were free and smooth and the one engine made several valiant attempts
to start.  It couldn't stay running, however, which I don't think really
disappointed anyone.

This recovery effort was in 1993.

The plan is (was?) NOT to fly the aircraft out but to disassemble it and
fly/truck/ship it out.

I don't know where the aircraft is heading for.

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Jul 1994 14:30:24 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: PC at the Smithsonian cont'd

Jim, thanks for the post. *Aviation* is a nice magazine; it deserves wider
distribution. I'm going to DC just to see that flying bomb. I assume it's
the same model Americans called Baka (for Fool).

There is a Japanese cartoon book about the Baka. The one I remember best
is our kamakazi hero in the water, pushing his Baka with both hands while
doing a flutter kick, with a little black storm-cloud overhead to indicate
his state of mind, doing his damnedest to catch up with the U.S. fleet
which is steaming over the horizon.

            - Dan      <dan.ford@unh.edu>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Jul 1994 14:39:32 EDT
From:    Richard Kaplan <kaplanr@CLP2.CLPGH.ORG>
Subject: USS INDIANAPOLIS / JEFFERSON CITY

I think some of the confusion here stems from history based fiction.  The book
Time & Tide substitues a ship named the Jefferson City for the Indianapolis in
retelling the story of delivering the A-Bomb and the Indy-Maru's sinking.

The novel begins with the fictional Jeff City slinking to Portland, OR for
repairs after "running" at Savo Island.  Her captain is replaced, and he spends
the rest of the war reestablishing the ship's reputation, and avenging the
trashed reputation of the former captain, his best buddy from the Academy.

To my knowledge, if there was a cruiser USS Jefferson City, it wasn't at Savo
Island.  I'm reading the Naval Institute Press book about the battle, and there
are one or two ship's actions that were probably used for the ficticious Jeff
City.

                                        Richard Kaplan
                                        Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Jul 1994 13:45:14 CST
From:    "ROBERT ROY(Southern Illinois University)" <CA0032@SIUCVMB.SIU.EDU>
Subject: want: books

    I RECEIVED A CATALOG FROM TURNER PUBLISHING CO. IN PUDUCAH KY.
THEY PUT OUT LARGE FORMAT, UNIT HISTORY/YEARBOOK TYPE BOOKS OF VARY
FINE QUALITY.  THEY ARE VARY EXPENSIVE, AT ABOUT $50.00 A COPY. I
WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IF ANYONE HAS USED COPIES THEY WOULD WANT TO SELL.
SOME OF THE TITLES I FOUND ARE:

    BATTLE OF THE BULGE
    TANK DESTROYER FORCES-WW II
    3RD BRIGADE,101ST AB-DESERT STORM/DESERT SHIELD
    11TH ARMORED CAV
    4TH INFANTRY DIVISION
    29TH INFANTRY DIVISION
    P-40 WARHAWK
    USS KIDD & FLETCHER CLASS DESTROYERS

 2. DOES ANYONE KNOW OF FTP FILES OR EMAIL TXT FILES OF BOOKSTORES/CATALOGS
    OF MILITARY HISTORY BOOKS. I HAVE FOUND EVERYTHING BUT MILITARY HISTORY !

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Jul 1994 14:49:00 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET>
Subject: Re: B-29 in Greenland

Your information about the B-29 is essentially correct as I remember it.


  =========================================================================
  | DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
  |                                  | Computers in Business & Education. |
  | Recently returned from my second | Education:  Curriculum development.|
  |   extended stay in Prague.       |    International Education, TEFL.  |
  | Working on second book about     | Central Europe:  Post revolution   |
  |   Prague and new Czech Republic  |    economic, social, political     |
  |   and a book about the B-25      |    problems and opportunities.     |
  |   in WWII.                       | B-25 in WWII.                      |
  | E-Mail:                          | Free lance writing and editing.    |
  |   USA:  BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET    | Stamp collecting.                  |
  =========================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Jul 1994 16:43:58 EST
From:    Aldo Hubert <HUBERT@PHYSICAL.UNCG.EDU>
Subject: Re: B-29 in Greenland

                                            arctic
                                               \/
 B-29 was flying recon near the artic circle


I guess I've spent too much time down south.





Aldo_Hubert@UNCG.edu


Aldo M. Hubert
University of North Carolina at Greensboro
Greensboro NC 27412

OBESA CANTAVIT

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Jul 1994 17:15:34 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: JEFFERSON CITY cruiser sunk in WWII?  NO.

Norma Cox,

     I know of no JC cruiser sunk in WWII.  Could it have
been a Liberty Ship (freighter)?

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Jul 1994 16:20:00 -0700
From:    Ed Kettler <deradler@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Bomb Transport

Again citing Rohwer "The cruiser has brought parts of the atomic bombs
from San Francisco to Tinian and is proceeding to Leyte."  Rohwer also
notes that the heavy cruiser was unescorted.

According to Norman Friedman in US Cruisers: an Illustrated Design
History, Indianaplois sank in 15 minutes because modified condition YOKE
was set, with the "watertight doors on the second deck open, and flooding
progressed rapidly aft."

Ed Kettler                                       deradler@netcom.com


On Thu, 14 Jul 1994, rick robinson wrote:

> ====================================================================
>  Date:    Wed, 13 Jul 1994 18:38:05 -0700
>  From:    Ed Kettler <deradler@NETCOM.COM>
>  Subject: Re: Bomb Transportation
>
>  The ship which carried the bomb for the Enola Gay was the USS
>  Indianapolis which was sunk between Saipan and the Philipines with great
>  loss of life by a Japanese sub.  Most of the casualties were due to
>  drowning and exposure during the several days in the rafts before
>  rescue.  There are several books on this sinking.  According to J.
>  Rohwer's Chronology of the War at Sea 1939-1945, I-58 (Captain Hashimoto)
>  sank Indianapolis on the night of 29-30 July 1945 with two hits from a
>  spread of 6 torpedoes E of Luzon.  316 of 1199 rescued between 2 and 8 Aug.
>
>  Ed Kettler                                       deradler@netcom.com
>
>  -------------------------------------------------------------------
>  > How were the bombs transfered to the Enola Gay?
>  > Were they transported on a destroyer? The Jefferson City?
>  > If so, was the Jefferson City sunk by Japanese submarines shortly
>  > afterwards?
>  ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> =====================================================================
>
>  I recall the incident of the loss of the Indianapolis.  To continue
>    this further, how was the components for the plutonium bomb
>    (Fat Man) transported to Tinian?
>
>
> ===>>> Moral Superiority through Superior Firepower <<<===
>
> Rick Robinson/KD4GNK (TSG/KyANG retired)
> Tape Librarian, DOIM -- Fort Knox, Kentucky  40121-5000
> LIBRARY@KNOX-EMH1.ARMY.MIL/ ROBINSR@IGLOU.COM
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Jul 1994 18:12:26 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <riegsecker@UPS.EDU>
Subject: Re: USS INDIANAPOLIS / JEFFERSON CITY/ SAVO

>To my knowledge, if there was a cruiser USS Jefferson City, it wasn't at Savo
>Island.  I'm reading the Naval Institute Press book about the battle, and there
>are one or two ship's actions that were probably used for the ficticious Jeff
>City.
>
>                                        Richard Kaplan
>                                        Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh

There was no cruiser USS Jefferson City at Savo.  I just finished reading
the Naval Institute Press book last night.  I would be interested in your
(or othter list member) thoughts on this action.  The grandfather (Robert
Hall Smith) of a good friend of mine commanded DD USS Henley which often
worked with the star-crossed Blue.  I've never figure out exactly what
happened to Henley that night but I've decided she must have been in the
trasport screen.  It is an interesting study of possible myths, and who
gets the blame when things go wrong.


John Riegsecker                                 (206) 756-3566
Dept of Math and Computer Science               riegsecker@ups.edu
University of Puget Sound

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Jul 1994 22:22:16 -0500
From:    "Danny G. Cox" <dcox01@OZARKS.SGCL.LIB.MO.US>
Subject: Re: Bomb Transport

Good question Rick, about two years ago I saw a PBS documentary about
that but I can't remember.  The only thing about that show I do remember is
that after they got it assembled and tried to load it on the plane it was
too big to go under the belly and all the way back to the bomb bay
doors.  So they dug a trench, or pit, al-la the old grease pits in the
service stations, lowered the bomb into that, taxied the plane over it and
loaded from there.

+==================================+
|   DAN COX                        |
|   REPUBLIC, MO                   |
|   dcox01@ozarks.sgcl.lib.mo.us   |
+==================================+

On Thu, 14 Jul 1994, rick robinson wrote;
> =====================================================================
>
>  I recall the incident of the loss of the Indianapolis.  To continue
>    this further, how was the components for the plutonium bomb
>    (Fat Man) transported to Tinian?
>
>
> ===>>> Moral Superiority through Superior Firepower <<<===
>
> Rick Robinson/KD4GNK (TSG/KyANG retired)
> Tape Librarian, DOIM -- Fort Knox, Kentucky  40121-5000
> LIBRARY@KNOX-EMH1.ARMY.MIL/ ROBINSR@IGLOU.COM
>

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 13 Jul 1994 to 14 Jul 1994
*************************************************

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There are 15 messages totalling 552 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. INF:Books regarding British colonial troops in North Africa campaigns (2)
  2. MEDIA: PC at the Smithsonian cont'd (4)
  3. INF: Book on Savo Island
  4. INF: USN Chronology 07-15-94
  5. MEDIA: D-Day Veteran
  6. JEFFERSON CITY cruiser sunk in WWII? NO.
  7. USS INDIANAPOLIS / JEFFERSON CITY
  8. GEN: Letters Home
  9. WEAP: USS Indianapolis (2)
 10. INF: 50 Years Ago - 15-JUL-1944

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 Jul 1994 22:46:02 PDT
From:    tlacher@GALILEO.STMARYS-CA.EDU
Subject: INF:Books regarding British colonial troops in North Africa campaigns

I am looking for information on British colonial/commonwealth
troops(preferably from the African continent) that fought in the North
African campaigns.  Anything would be helpful: books, articles, and even
personal experiences from those list members from those areas.  Please
reply off-list as I am no longer subscribed to WWII-L. Thank you in
advance.

tom lacher
St. Mary's College of Ca.
tlacher@galileo.stmarys-ca.edu
             or
tlacher@altair.stmars-ca.edu (This one is better as Galileo has been having
some problems)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Jul 1994 08:15:41 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: PC at the Smithsonian cont'd

On Thu, 14 Jul 1994 08:19:31 -0400 James E Irwin said:
>Forgive the length of this piece, but I thought that it was
>worthwhile, considering the discussion this event has engendered
>in recent weeks.

Why do you think that, though?  I mean, on the face of it, it is just PC
from the Right.  I can't make out that the author has even seen the exhibit.

Let's face it--the *only* reason the EG was saved was its role in dropping
the bomb.  It would defy belief to exhibit this plane without *any*
reference to that.

ken koester
maint2@ers.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Jul 1994 09:02:37 EDT
From:    Richard Kaplan <kaplanr@CLP2.CLPGH.ORG>
Subject: INF: Book on Savo Island

To bring our discussion up to a respectable level, John Riegsecker and I have
been referring to the book Disaster in the Pacific: a New Light on the Battle
of Savo Island.  Published in 1993 by the Naval Institute Press, and written by
Denis and Peggy Warner with Sadano Seno.  I haven't finished it yet, though I
have completed the chapters actually dealing with the night's actions.  The
authors used a style I found to be different and very helpful.  They treat each
significant Allied ship as a seperate story or chapter.  Some of the events
overlap, but you get the feel for how each ship was fought.

The book devotes minimal time to individual feats of heroism, but is primarily
devoted to the command level.  Once I finish, and review some of the chapters
(where has my memory gone?) I'll form a more dfinitive opinion of Admirals
Turner and Crutchley.  I also want to go back and read Morison's account of
Savo Island since he holds some RAAF recon pilot culpable for not breaking
radio silence and warning the Allied command.  This book substantially refutes
that notion, but with material first declassified by the Aussies in the 80s.
Much of the investigations into responsibility at Savo were conducted with an
eye to preserving the US - Australian relationship well after the war.


                                        Richard Kaplan
                                        Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Jul 1994 06:25:33 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@CCLINK.LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 07-15-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
07/15 Sat.  United States naval vessel sunk:
             PT-133, coastal defense gun, eastern New Guinea,
              03 d. 28'S., 143 d. 34'E.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Jul 1994 10:22:06 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA: D-Day Veteran

The following article appeared in the Delaware County (PA) Daily
Times, Sunday, July 3, 1994.  The reporter's name is Patti
Mengers, and it states that it is the sixth in a series.  I know
that I have read on this list previously about an oral history
of World War II collection somewhere.  Would these people be
interested in Ms. Mengers articles?  How would one go about
connecting the two?

                         D-DAY CALLING:
                         BOMBS AWAY!

     Storm clouds gathered in the twilight sky as William Charles
Evans remembered that day 50 years ago.  A rumble of thunder was
so strong he could feel it under his feet.
     "There's a heavy one coming," he said, turning his gaze toward
the heavens.
     As a 22-year-old bombardier at Rackheath Air Force Base in the
south of England, Charlie Evans had much the same feeling.
     "We had an idea there was going to be an invasion, but we
didn't know exactly what day or where we would hit," he recalled.
     On June 6, 1944, the young lieutenant and his comrades in
the Eighth Air Force, 467th Bomb Group, got their answer.  They
would fly two missions that day.  Their targets would be
anything that could implement advancement of enemy forces to the
beach at Normandy.
     "There were Nazi factories and air fields in France.  On
D-Day you were trying to hit targets to stop them - troops or
tanks or whatever," said Evans.  "We needed to stop anybody from
sending supplies to them."
     Col. Albert Shower briefed them about their missions to
towns whose names have since faded from Evans' memory.  Then,
those who wished to pray, did so.  Evans, a devout Episcopalian,
did his share of talking to God.
     "Any day you flew, nobody knew if they were coming back,"
noted Evans who manned 31 missions during World War II.  "When
you landed, you took it for granted.  You might have said a
prayer to yourself - 'Thank God.'"
     The first rays of sunlight were just stretching across the
horizon when Evans climbed into the nose of the B-24 bomber that
fateful day.  Only glass came between him and and the clear blue
sky.
     "D-Day was a clear day - that was how they knew what time
to pick - when the weather was clear," he said.
     Charlie Evans was at the head of the pack, his six-foot
frame nestled in the nose of the lead plane.  Four squadrons
followed across the English Channel, each with anywhere from 20
to 40 planes.
     "We could see the ships in the water," he remembered.
     And then they disappeared as the bomber moved inland in
search of its target.  At 30,000 feet, Evans' job was to
synchronize the plane's position with the intended target
through the bomb sight.
     "If it was synchronized properly, I'd say 'Bombs away' and
that would be it," said Evans who was oblivious to any enemy
aircraft around him.
     By the time the bombs were dropped - at least a dozen
weighing anywhere from 100 to 1,000 pounds - the plane was past
the target.  Evans and the nine other crew members learned they
were successful later in the day, after pictures automatically
taken by cameras on the plane, were analyzed by the top brass.
     "You had a job to do.  You didn't say, 'Yippee, this is
it!'" said Evans, not recalling any revelry among his crew
members on D-Day.
     Most of Evans' missions had been flown over Germany, but
his forays into France are documented through bomb sight
pictures in his scrapbook showing targets in Beauvoir, Gagenau,
Haut Maisnil, and Pont a Yendin.
     On D-Day the missions flown by Evans took only about two
hours each, not the usual six to 14 hours, because the English
air base was only about 25 miles from the Nazi targets in
France.  Even with six hours between each mission, his day's work
was done early.
     "I remember hearing about the casualties.  I didn't know
how to diagnose it other than the troops did get ashore.  There
were quite a few losses," he said.
     Indeed, more than 2,000 Americans were among the Allied
troops whose blood was spilled on Omaha Beach, thousands of feet
below him.  Evans was also aware that between him and the boys
on the beach, were fighter planes fending off enemy aircraft
intent on aborting his bomber missions.
     It was part of the bigger picture of war that had left its
cruel mark on Evans long before Normandy.  He took a bath in the
English Channel once when his B-24 was crippled and had to land
in the water.  He still has a piece of the shrapnel that was
implanted in the plane, in his attic.
     "You found out what you were a part of when you saw the
fellows knocked down beside you.  German or American, you knew
it was for keeps.  You held on for any mission and just hoped
for the best.  You didn't cry or anything.  The job had to be
done and that's it," said Evans.
     His valiant service earned him an Air Medal with three
oakleaf clusters and the Distinguished Flying Cross.
Ironically, the Morton (PA) resident never intended to be a
bombardier - never intended to be in the Air Corps, for that
matter.
     "Actually, I didn't want to join the Air Force, I wanted to
join the Marines.  I walked into City Hall at Wilkes Barre.  A
fellow I graduated with said, 'Why not try for the Air Force?'
I passed the test.  They sent me to Midland, Texas," said Evans.
     About a year after D-Day, Evans, now a decorated captain,
returned to his native Wilkes Barre.  There he started courting
Edna Schrader, a girl who had been a year behind him at GAR -
Grand Army of the Republic - High School.
     They were married the following January then settled in
Delaware County where Evans worked briefly as a machinist at the
old Baldwin Locomotives plant before he entered the Air Corps.
     He joined his brother-in-law in running the Holmes Atlantic
Service Station which Evans eventually purchased and operated
until his retirement about 10 years ago.  Charles and Edna have
five children, eight grandchildren, and one great-grandchild
with another on-the-way.
     The D-Day veteran is now enjoying travel and dancing with
his wife of 48 years who insists her husband has nine lives.
     "He survived 31 missions over Germany, a heart attack, an
aneurysm, a malignant lump removed from his colon, and a
stroke," Mrs. Evans proudly noted.
     Perhaps it is no mere coincidence then, that the first
bomber Charles Evans ever flew, was nicknamed, "Heaven Can Wait."

Sorry for the length of this message.  Any typos are mine.
BTW, Charlie Evans is one of my father's best friends, and he
took care of my cars.  A good man!

Jim





----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-8760
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-8760

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Jul 1994 10:45:29 -0500
From:    "Danny G. Cox" <dcox01@OZARKS.SGCL.LIB.MO.US>
Subject: Re: JEFFERSON CITY cruiser sunk in WWII? NO.

The name Jefferson City came from the novel 'Time and Tide' by Thomas
Fleming, a historian and Navy veteran of WWII.  Sorry that I didn't
explain this in my inquiry.  I was curious about how closely he had
stayed to the facts.
As you have probably read by now, a couple of responses have stated - a
cruiser, Indianapolis, was used for this purpose and later sunk.

+==================================+
|   DAN COX                        |
|   REPUBLIC, MO                   |
|   dcox01@ozarks.sgcl.lib.mo.us   |
+==================================+

On Thu, 14 Jul 1994, Louis R. Coatney wrote:

> Norma Cox,
>
>      I know of no JC cruiser sunk in WWII.  Could it have
> been a Liberty Ship (freighter)?
>
> Lou Coatney
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Jul 1994 11:18:15 -0500
From:    Doc Benway <c635421@SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: USS INDIANAPOLIS / JEFFERSON CITY

There is a USS Jefferson City. It is a sub that was commissioned several
years ago, named, obviously, after the Missouri capital. (Hey, I used to
live there, it's not that exciting.)

BTW, I suggest any WWII biography fans check out Mark Stoler's biography
of George Marshall. I recommend the author highly...I received my BA in
History from the University of Vermont, and took a class with Stoler in
the History of the Second World War.



On Thu, 14 Jul 1994, Richard Kaplan wrote:

> To my knowledge, if there was a cruiser USS Jefferson City, it wasn't at
Savo > Island.  I'm reading the Naval Institute Press book about the
battle, and there > are one or two ship's actions that were probably used
for the ficticious Jeff > City. > > Richard Kaplan > Carnegie Library of
Pittsburgh
>

*****************************************************************************
"But Mr. Hand, if you're here, and I'm here, doesn't that make it _our_
time."
                            Jeff Spicoli
******************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Jul 1994 13:02:37 EDT
From:    Mike Long <MLONG@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>
Subject: GEN: Letters Home

Mr. Ausland and WWII-l,
FYI.....
Make that no copies left at Sidney Kramers. I've just picked up the last
one. Anxiously waiting for the mail!

Thanks,
Michael Long
UNIVERSITY OF CONNECTICUT
196 AUDITORIUM ROAD, U-138    |   BITNET: MLONG@UCONNVM.BITNET
STORRS, CONNECTICUT, USA      | INTERNET: MLONG@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU
                   06269-3138 |    PHONE: (203) 486-1352

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Jul 1994 13:13:55 EDT
From:    Mike Long <MLONG@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>
Subject: WEAP: USS Indianapolis

A very large part of the casualties on the Indianapolis were due to shark
attacks. No distress signal was sent. The ship wasn't even reported missing
for several days after it went down. The mission (delivering the BOMB) was
top secret.

In the movie "JAWS", Quint the shark hunter was a USN veteran from the Indy.
and he describes the true events rather accurately from what I understand.
He gives this as the motivating factor for his current occupation.

Michael Long
UNIVERSITY OF CONNECTICUT
196 AUDITORIUM ROAD, U-138    |   BITNET: MLONG@UCONNVM.BITNET
STORRS, CONNECTICUT, USA      | INTERNET: MLONG@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU
                   06269-3138 |    PHONE: (203) 486-1352

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 16 Jul 1994 01:17:40 +0700
From:    "Peter E. Beal" <bealp@MORAKOT.NECTEC.OR.TH>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: PC at the Smithsonian cont'd

Touche!  This is a reflection of the pattern of "victim guilt" in the
U.S.  Somehow the victim is guilty, or at least partially guilty, for
what happened to him or her.  I recall that the L.A. D.A. (no pun
intended) had to remind people that the real victims in the
Simpson/Goldman case were Nicole Simpson and (firstname?) Goldman.

I suppose that some people will justify Japan's initiation of war with
the oil and scrap steel embargo enforced by the U.S. (and I presume the
Dutch).   Of course they forget that these were implemented because Japan
refused to withdraw from China and/or Indochina.  And, I am certain, they
will try to justify the Japanese invaision of China somehow (bringing
order to a unstable situation which was a threat to peace in the region?).

Of course people suffered because the bombs were dropped (including the
father of a friend, who didn't hold it against me when we met- his wife
offered to find me a nice girl to marry among the staff of the company
they owned in Hiroshima) but, God, after Okinawa, Iwo Jima, Manila Stadium
and Guam/Tinian, how many more Japanese would have died if the war had
been carried to the Home Islands on the ground.  It was a blessing!

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Jul 1994 14:37:22 -0500
From:    John Davis <JBDML@OSBM6.OSBM.STATE.NC.US>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 15-JUL-1944

On 15-JUL-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The majority of the offensive in the American sector is halted
     at the outskirts of Lessay for regrouping. The US 35th and 29th Divisions
     (XIX Corps) continues to advance towards St Lo against heavy resistance.
     Units of the 29th Division reach the Bayeux-St Lo road nead La Madeleine,
     but are cut off by the Germans. In the British sector, the XII Corps is
     attacking along a line Bougy-Evrecy-Maizet, south west of Caen between
     the Orne and Odon rivers.

Eastern Front - The 2nd Baltic Front captures Opochka, south of Ostrov and
     Lake Peipus. Other Russian units cross the Niemen west and south west of
     Vilna.

Italian Front - The US 34th Division is moving rapidly on Leghorn. The 168th
     and 133rd Regiments press on towards Pisa. The 363rd Regiment of the 9th
     Division captures Bagni di Casciana. The 88th Divisions offensive on the
     right flank of the IV Corps continues. The 8th Moroccan Regiment captures
     Castellina in Chianti. The British XIII Corps attacks Arezzo.

Naval Dispatches
----------------
US PT-133 sunk by coastal artillery, eastern New Guinea area.

The Homefront
-------------
Navy Reaches Personnel Goal - The Navy says that it has reached its manpower
     goal of 3,650,000 and is now accepting 10,000 men per month as
     replacements. The Army reached its goal of 7,700,000 men several months
     ago and has been calling up 70,000 replacements monthly.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  jbd@osbm.state.nc.us
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Jul 1994 14:57:07 -0500
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: INF:Books regarding British colonial troops in North Africa
         campaigns

There is a two-part book by J. Lee Ready entitled "Forgotten Allies" which
deals precisely with the exploits of Allied forces not from the US, British
isles, or the Soviet Union, which has a great deal about British commonwealth
and colonial forces.  "The North African Campaign 1940-43" by P.C. Barucha
is a more or less official history of Indian forces in North Africa.
There is also a history of the Australian forces in the war published by
the Sydney War Memorial in the '50's, several volumes on North Africa
(I've only read one volume, "To Benghazi," by Gavin Long)...I'd definitely
recommend the Ready book, though, its sounds like just what you're looking
for, and you'll probably get a lot of leads from the bibliography (published
McFarland, Jefferson, NC, c. 1985)

                Hope this helps

                Mike Yaklich (mfy@cis.pitt.edu)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Jul 1994 14:18:10 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: USS Indianapolis

> A very large part of the casualties on the Indianapolis were due to shark
> attacks. No distress signal was sent. The ship wasn't even reported missing
> for several days after it went down. The mission (delivering the BOMB) was
> top secret.
>
> In the movie "JAWS", Quint the shark hunter was a USN veteran from the Indy.
> and he describes the true events rather accurately from what I understand.
> He gives this as the motivating factor for his current occupation.

We just received some information that the crew of the Indianapolis is
reuniting in (surprise! :-) Indianapolis on July 30th.  The info also
noted that a PBY would be there (a PBY discovered the survivors and
noting they were under shark attack, landed against standing orders and
were at least able to get 50 men out of the water while they signalled
for help).

The Indianapolis was hit by two torpedoes out of a spread of six.  The
first hit on the bow caused the ship to start taking on water.  The
second almost simultaneous hit knocked out the engines and all power,
preventing even the opportunity to send out a distress.  The ship went
down so fast that not all liferafts could be deployed.

Although the bomb trip was top secret, the Indianapolis was scheduled
to meet with the USS Iowa for gunnery practice the day after it was
torpedoed.  This is all part of what makes the whole situation of the
ship being "forgotten" for four days all that more strange and tragic.

Personally, I'm very interested in more information about this reunion
coming up in two weeks...

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Jul 1994 17:45:34 -0500
From:    Bill Smith <bismith@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: PC at the Smithsonian cont'd

On Fri, 15 Jul 1994, Ken Koester wrote:

> Let's face it--the *only* reason the EG was saved was its role in dropping
> the bomb.  It would defy belief to exhibit this plane without *any*
> reference to that.

And so was Bock's Car, the B-29 which dropped the Nakasaki bomb.  I have
seen its display, rather prominently I might add, at the USAF Museum at
Wright-Patterson Field in Dayton, Ohio.  It is part of a rather
detailed explanation of the bomb's development, dropping the bomb and
the missions.  I would consider it a fair model of how to handle Enola Gay.

I have not seen the Smithsonian display, but I will in two weeks.  From
what I have read (both here and elsewhere), it is entirely revisionist,
sensationalist and exhibitionist.

The point is to *display the plane* not make a statement of policy.  PC of
the right or a cold representation of the event?

It's one thing to see FiFi, the C.A.F.'s touring B-29 that was used in
several movies as the Enola Gay.  It is quite another to walk up and touch the
bomb bay of Bock's Car and know *this* was the place the bomb dropped
from.

And, IMHO, I did not need a charred body photograph to run chills down my
spine and give me a cold, sick feeling in the stomach when I touched
Bock's Car.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 Jul 1994 20:20:00 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: PC at the Smithsonian cont'd

Politically correct: The Japanese were pulling into Naragansett Bay picking
up scrap metal and cigarette tin foil for obvious war material long before
1941. This my father told me as a boy...

Politically incorrect: Pretending that this PC Bullwinkle does anything
for anybody except the next anarchial national SOB that decides to shoot
instead of talk.

Give me a break people. Politicians are lawyers who haven't learned to
quantize. Give yourself a break.
------------------political fun - real or just memorex---------------------
ahem...
--------------------------------my style-----------------------------------
I spoke with a Korean national who, though he was from below the parallel,
wasn't settled with the idea of freedom, even though he was speaking his mind
freely in a pool hall in the swamp-yankee state of R.I.. So I spoke to him
about the current state of affairs between our two great sovereignties,
in between shots of my pool game. Now as a beer drinker in this great land
of ours, I have always considered it impolite of players to accomodate
themselves while money was a-waitin' on the table. Further, I excused myself
whenever the call from the table interrupted our conversation. He spoke of
the range of our weapons and insisted that the North had their right to
possess. He turned out to be all for the reunification under communism. I
returned after the next shot. He said I was rude since I had left. So I
thought,... oh my. He's not being politically correct. ;-P I told him that
of course I was rude, cause he was a fucking zipper-head. 'Damn yankee.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Wild, LAN MGR.  Father of 1.556           Voice:          (401) 792-2611
ACC - Lippitt - URI  American Legion Post 102. FAX:            (401) 792-5479
Kingston, RI  02881                            Bitnet:           AWild@URIACC
                                               Internet: AWild@URIACC.URI.EDU

"When war is declared, Truth is the first casualty." -Arthur Ponsonby
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 14 Jul 1994 to 15 Jul 1994
*************************************************

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Status: O

There are 5 messages totalling 222 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. INF: 50 Years Ago - 16-JUL-1944
  2. Truman/Atom Bomb (2)
  3. REF: and LOGISTICS: Vladivostock?
  4. WEAP: USS Indianapolis

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 16 Jul 1994 08:34:43 -0500
From:    John Davis <JBDML@OSBM6.OSBM.STATE.NC.US>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 16-JUL-1944

On 16-JUL-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The US VI Corps continues its offensive; the 9th Division is
     on the right flank and the 30th Division is on the left flank in the
     direction of the road linking Periers and St Lo. The 29th Division, in
     the vacinity of La Madeleine, attempts to reach the units cut off after
     yesterday's attack, but fail. The 59th Division (XXX Corps) is attacking
     towards Noyers, while the 50th Division is reinforcing its positions near
     Hottot-les-Bagues. The 15th Division (British XII Corps) captures Gavrus,
     Bougy and Esquay. In a report to Army Group West headquarters, Rommel
     reports that since June 6th his units have lost nearly 100,000 men
     killed, wounded or missing. His message ends with this pessimistic note:
     "The enemy is on the point of smashing our weak front line and
     penetrating deep into the interior of France."

Eastern Front - Armoured units of the 3rd Belorussian Front and 1st
     Belorussian Front converge from the north and south and capture Grodno.
     In southern Poland, the 1st Ukraine Front are engaged with the German
     North Ukraine Army Group along a 300-mile front.

Italian Front - The US 34th Division captures Monte Maggiore, south east of
     Leghorn. Units of the 133rd Regiment capture Usigliano. In the British
     sector, the 6th Armoured Division takes Arezzo. Some units of the British
     XIII Corps push on as far as the Arno, seize a bridge and establish a
     bridgehead on the opposite bank.

New Guinea - On Numfoor Island, the parachutists lose contact with the main
     body of the Japanese forces. Kamiri airfield is ready to go into action.

The Homefront
-------------
Fuel Shortage Warning - The Office of War Information warns that coal, fuel
     oil and wood for domestic use will be in short supply this winter.

Congressional Medal Of Honor -  The Congressional Medal has been awarded to
     Private William J. Crawford of Pueblo, Colorado who was captured by the
     Germans near Alta Villa, Italy on Sept. 13, 1943 after he wiped out three
     German machine gun positions that had held up his company.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  jbd@osbm.state.nc.us
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 17 Jul 1994 00:24:25 +0700
From:    "Peter E. Beal" <bealp@MORAKOT.NECTEC.OR.TH>
Subject: Re: Truman/Atom Bomb

It was stated under this subject heading that Truman got the Cold War off
to a "rousing start" by insisting that West German currency be circulated
in West Berlin.  What was the alternative?  What was the currency being
circulated in East Berlin?

I don't understand why the second, i.e. Nagasaki, bomb was unnecessary.
Had the Japanese surrendered by the time the plane took off?  How long
should we have waited?  Fighting was going on elsewhere in the Pacific
while we did, e.g. the Philippines had not been completely liberated, nor
had Indonesia, to say nothing of the CBI.  How many lives were being lost
daily?  One was one too many.

Regarding Truman's sending an unprepared army to defend South Korea, do
you mean Truman was responsible for its state of unpreparedness or that,
in light of it being unprepared, he should not have sent it?

I think congress had more to do with the budget and thus state of the
U.S. Army after WWII (or during peacetime generally) than did the
president. If you accept this then you have to accept that Truman had to
use whatever was available.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 16 Jul 1994 16:23:58 EDT
From:    Robert E George <regeorge@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Subject: REF: and LOGISTICS: Vladivostock?

Can anybody point me to some references to the use
of Vladivostock as a port by the Soviets during the
2nd World War?

Or provide any information directly?

My specific interest is weather-related: what months
could the port be used? When Vladivostock couldn't be
used, were there other Soviet Far Eastern ports through
which Lend-Lease material could be shipped?

Regards,
Rob George
regeorge@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 16 Jul 1994 16:38:01 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Truman/Atom Bomb

On Sun, 17 Jul 1994, Peter E. Beal wrote:
> It was stated under this subject heading that Truman got the Cold War off
> to a "rousing start" by insisting that West German currency be circulated
> in West Berlin.  What was the alternative?  What was the currency being
> circulated in East Berlin?

Occupation marks.

> I don't understand why the second, i.e. Nagasaki, bomb was unnecessary.
> Had the Japanese surrendered by the time the plane took off?  How long
> should we have waited?  Fighting was going on elsewhere in the Pacific

How about one week?

> while we did, e.g. the Philippines had not been completely liberated, nor
> had Indonesia, to say nothing of the CBI.  How many lives were being lost
> daily?  One was one too many.

Well, it would have had to be a thousand an hour to cancel out the deaths
at Nagasaki. Or don't you count Japanese deaths?

> Regarding Truman's sending an unprepared army to defend South Korea, do
> you mean Truman was responsible for its state of unpreparedness or that,
> in light of it being unprepared, he should not have sent it? >

Well, how about both? But Truman's stupidity was in declaring to the world
that Korea was not within the American zone of interest. That was an open
invitation to Kim to invade. Truman had just *told* him that the U.S.
would not intervene. Then Truman did just that, sending kids with six play
weeks of basic training into combat. A friend of mine was an MP traffic
cop in Japan; he got to Korea to find that the US army had no need of
his talents, since all the traffic was going in the one direction
(south), so they put him in a tank. The U.S. army at Pearl Harbor was
better prepared than the U.S. army in Korea.

> I think congress had more to do with the budget and thus state of the
> U.S. Army after WWII (or during peacetime generally) than did the
> president. If you accept this then you have to accept that Truman had to
> use whatever was available.

He was commander in chief. And David McCullogh loves him. If he couldn't
field an army, he should have stayed out of it. Better to lose Korea than
50,000 Americans. Are we any the worse off because we lost Vietnam (*and*
50,000 Americans)? Now American tourists are going to Vung Tau for the
surfing and Hue for the history.

What's so great about journalistic history is that Truman screwed up his
war and is lionized. Bush won his war with fewer American deaths than
might have occurred in a training exercise, and he is excoriated. Do you
suppose that David McCollough will ever write a biography of Bush? Nah.

            - Dan      <dan.ford@unh.edu>

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 16 Jul 1994 21:26:54 -0500
From:    "Richard H. Miller" <rick@CRICK.SSCTR.BCM.TMC.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: USS Indianapolis

On Jul 15, 14:18, Robert J. Granvin wrote: } Subject: Re: WEAP: USS
Indianapolis

>
>Although the bomb trip was top secret, the Indianapolis was scheduled
>to meet with the USS Iowa for gunnery practice the day after it was
>torpedoed.  This is all part of what makes the whole situation of the
>ship being "forgotten" for four days all that more strange and tragic.

The Indianapolis had completed her bomb missions and had been sent to thr
Phillipines to join the 3rd fleet. She was dispatched without escort and as
indicated sunk.

She was not discovered missing the failure of a capital ship to arrive was
not cause to query Guam about her. The commander of the Phillipine Sea
Fronter assumed she had joined  with the Iowa so did not query Guam until the
3rd fleet queried as to why she had not joined. The procedure was modified so
that an arriving warship had a positive date and action would be taken if
they did not check in,

There was an investigation and charges of a coverup since several high
ranking officers (up to Nimitz) could have been court-martialed because of
their negligence. I believe that the warships arrivals officer received
either a letter of reprimand or censure. He took it to the SECNAV and I
believe had it
overturned. There were many charges that the Annapolis version of the
'mythical' West Point Protective Society acted to protect the flag
officers.The offcier aluded to above was a reservist.

The captain of the Indianapolis was court-martialed for hazarding his command
because he was proceeding without zig-zaging. This trial was highlighted by
the fact the one of the prosecution witnesses was the commander of the
Japanese sub which sunk her. The captain was convicted by the verdict was
overturned. I believe he committed suicide in the sixties over the loss of
his ship.

The USNI (I think) published a book on the sinking. I can't remember the
title but it should be in their catalog. There was also a TV movies a few
years ago with Stacey Keach as the CO and included Richard Thomas as the
ship's doctor.




--
Richard H. Miller                 Email: rick@bcm.tmc.edu
Asst. Dir. for Technical Support  Voice: (713)798-3532
Baylor College of Medicine        US Mail: One Baylor Plaza, 302H
                                           Houston, Texas 77030

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 15 Jul 1994 to 16 Jul 1994
*************************************************

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There are 3 messages totalling 121 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. INF: USN Chronology 07-17-94
  2. INF: 50 Years Ago - 17-JUL-1944
  3. USS Hugh w. Hadley (DD-774)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 17 Jul 1994 01:20:26 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 07-17-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
07/17 Mon.  Japanese naval vessel sunk:
             Minesweeper NO. 25, by submarine GABILAN (SS-252), off
              Honshu, Japan,
              33 d. 51'N., 138 d. 35'E.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 17 Jul 1994 07:53:30 -0500
From:    John Davis <JBDML@OSBM6.OSBM.STATE.NC.US>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 17-JUL-1944

On 17-JUL-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The US 9th Division (VII Corps) advances rapidly along the
     Periers-St Lo road. The XIX Corps penetrates the German lines along the
     Vire river, near Rampan. The XXX Corps is advancing slowly towards
     Noyers; while the XII Corps units fail to reach Evrecy. Field-Marshal
     Rommel is severely wounded in the head during an air attack near
     Vimontiers. Rommel is temporarily replaced by Field-Marshal von Kluge,
     who also continues as Commander in Chief.

Italian Front - The US 34th Division makes little progress towards Leghorn.
     The 91st Division takes Prusacco and head on for Pontedera. In the
     British sector, the XIII Corps pursue the Germans as they withdraw
     towards Florence. The Polish II Corps attack Ancona.

Arctic - The British carriers Furious, Indefatigable and Formidable escorted
     by the battleship Duke of York attack the Tirpitz at anchorage at
     Kaafiord. The attacks are detected by the Germans who successfully
     conceal the Tirpitz with smoke.

New Guinea - In the Aitape beachhead area, the Americans succeed in making a
     continuous line along the Driniumor river; but the line is again broken
     by the Japanese during an attack at night.

Naval Dispatches
----------------
Japanese minesweeper sunk by submarine GABILAN (SS-252), off Honshu, Japan.

Japanese Politics
-----------------
Tokyo - Admiral Nomura replaces Shimada as Navy minister. Tojo resigns as
     Prime Minister and as Chief of Staff. General Kuniaki Koiso and Admiral
     Yonai are picked to form the new Cabinet. General Umezu becomes Chief of
     Staff. These changes are part of a growing desire by the Japanese to end
     the war.

The Homefront
-------------
Roosevelt Leaves Choice Of VP To Delegates - President Roosevelt has declined
     to dictate the renomination of Vice President Henry A. Wallace. Instead
     he chooses to leave the nomination of a Vice President up to the
     delegates themselves.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  jbd@osbm.state.nc.us
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 17 Jul 1994 14:26:53 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: USS Hugh w. Hadley (DD-774)

REPORT BY COMMANDING OFFICER OF USS HUGH W. HADLEY (DD-774) DATE 15 MAY 1945
:

U.S.S HUGH W. HADLEY (DD-774)
c/o Fleet Post Office
San Francisco, California

The U.S.S. HUGH W. HADLEY (DD-774) was assigned as RADAR PICKET SHIP AND FIGHTER DIRECTOR SHIP on Station #15 off Okinawa, Nansei Shoto, 10 May 1945. Ships in company were the U.S.S EVANS (DD-552), LCS 82, LCS 83 and LCM (R) 193 as support ships. The EVANS turned over the duties of Tactical Command to the HADLEY.

The MISSION of this group of ships was to detect and report approaching enemy aircraft, to control the assigned Combat Air Patrol, and to prevent enemy planes from reaching the transport area of Okinawa.

On the night of 10 May, an enemy plane attacked our formation at 1935 and was taken under fire by both ships. The EVANS reported seeing it destroyed. Throughout the night the ship was at General Quarters due to the threatening movements and a few attacks by enemy planes which were in the immediate vicinity of the formation.

At about 0755, numerous enemy planes were contacted by our instruments as coming toward the ship (and Okinawa) from the north, distance about 55 miles. One division of CAP was ordered out to intercept. Shortly thereafter, several enemy formations were detected, and the entire CAP was ordered out to intercept. Our Fighter Director Officer in CIC has estimated that the total number of enemy planes was 156 coming in a different heights in groups as follows: Raid ONE 36, Raid TWO 50, Raid THREE 20, Raid FOUR 20 to 30, Raid FIVE 20; Total 156 planes.

>From 0830 to 0900 the HADLEY was attacked by groups of planes coming in on both bows. Twelve enemy planes were shot down by the HADLEY's guns during this period, at times firing all guns in various directions. The EVANS which, at the time, was at a distance of about three miles to the northwest, was seen fighting off a number of planes by herself, several of which were seen to be destroyed. At 0900 the EVANS was hit and put out of action. At one time toward the close of the battle when friendly planes were closing to assist us, the four support ships were prevented from shooting down two friendlies whom they had taken under fire. One plane was seen to splash inside their formation due to their own gunfire. However, I am not able to give an accurate account of their action. They were very helpful in picking up my crew who were in the water, in coming alongside and removing wounded and in helping us to pump.

For 20 minutes, the HADLEY fought off the enemy single-handedly being separated from the EVANS, which was out of action, by three miles and the four small support ships by two miles. Finally, at 0920, ten enemy planes which had surrounded the HADLEY, four on our starboard bow under fire by the main battery and machine guns, four on the port bow under fire by the forward machine guns, and two astern under fire by the after machine guns, attacked the ship simultaneously. All ten planes were destroyed in a remarkable fight and each plane was definitely accounted for. As a result of this attack, the HADLEY was (1) Hit by a bomb aft (2) By a BAKA bomb seen to be released from a low flying BETTY (3) Was struck by a suicide plane aft (4) Hit by a suicide plane in rigging.

>From this point on, a truely amazing, courageous and efficient group of men and officers with utter disregard for their own personal safety approached the explosions and the fire with hoses and for fifteen minutes kept up this work. The torpedoes were jettisoned, weights removed from the starboard side, and finally, the fire was extinguished and the list and flooding controlled and the ship was saved. Although the ship was still in an extremely dangerous condition, one fireroom bulkhead held and she was finally towed safely to the IE SHIMA anchorage.

The total number of enemy planes destroyed by the HADLEY in this period of one hour and thirty-five minutes of continual firing was twenty-three. This number include twenty shot down to the water and three suicide hits.

Our mission was accomplished. The transports at the Okinawa anchorage were saved from an attack by one hundred and fifty-six enemy planes by the action of our ships. We bore the brunt of the enemy strength and absorbed what they had to throw at us. It was a proud day for destroyer men.

PERSONNEL PERFORMANCE AND CASUALTIES: 1. Killed in action and twenty-eight; wounded in action sixty-seven, missing in action none.

No Captain of a man of war ever had a crew who fought more valiantly against such overwhelming odds. Who can measure the degree of courage of men who stand at their guns in the face of diving planes that destroy them? Who can measure the degree of loyalty of a crew who risked death to save the ship from sinking when all seemed lost? I desire to record that the history of our Navy was enhanced on 11 May 1945. I am proud to record that I know of no record of a Destroyer's crew fighting for one hour and thirty-five minutes against overwhelming enemy aircraft attacks and destroying twenty-three planes. My crew accomplished their mission and displayed outstanding fighting abilities. I am recommending awards for the few men who displayed outstanding bravery above the deeds of their shipmates in separate correspondence. Destroyer men are good men and my officers and crew were good destroyer men.

B. J. Mullaney

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 16 Jul 1994 to 17 Jul 1994
*************************************************

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There are 13 messages totalling 510 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. INF: USN Chronology 07-18-94
  2. [INF] USAAF 18 JUL 44
  3. INF: 50 Years Ago - 18-JUL-1944
  4. MISC:Political Correctness at the Smithsonian
  5. USS Hugh w. Hadley (DD-774)
  6. INF: 50 Years Ago - FTP archive
  7. MEDIA: PC at the Smithsonian cont'd (3)
  8. REF: and LOGISTICS: Vladivostock?
  9. [EDU/POL] audio visual enhancement (2)
 10. WWII

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 Jul 1994 01:18:29 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 07-18-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
07/18 Tue. Premier Tojo and the Japanese cabinet resign; General Koiso
           forms a new cabinet.
            United States naval vessel damaged:
             Motor boat PGM-7, by collision, Bismarck Sea,
              07 d. 15'S., 155 d. 40'E.
            Japanese naval vessel sunk:
             Submarine chaser No. 50, by submarine PLAICE (SS-390)
              south of Honshu, Japan,
              29 d. 22'N., 139 d. 14'E.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 Jul 1994 07:05:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 18 JUL 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
TUESDAY, 18 JULY 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 25 P-40s hit the Myitkyina area; 8
P-47s attack Theinin, and 16 P-51s support ground forces at Pyindaw; 9 B-25s
bomb Myitkyina and Naungtalaw.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In the Hengyang-Tungting Lake region of
China, 30+ P-40s strafe shipping between Chaling and Hengyang, bomb the town
of Hengyang, and hit the airfield and several AA positions in the area; 16
P-51s and P-40s hit river shipping from Lienchiangkou to Samshui to Sainam;
13 P-40s hit a fuel dump on the railroad near Kangtsun-i.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 481: 1,394 bombers and 476
fighters are dispatched to hit targets in Germany and tactical targets in
France; 3 bombers and 3 fighters are lost:
  1. 644 B-24s are dispatched, in conjunction with Ninth Air Force and Royal
Air Force (RAF) Bomber Command, to bomb enemy equipment and troop
concentrations in support of the assault by the British Second Army in the
Caen area; 249 hit Solier, 146 hit Frenouville, 139 hit Troarns, 23 hit
Hubert la Folie and 12 hit the Mezidon marshalling yard; 1 B-24 is lost, 2
are damaged beyond repair and 182 are damaged. 90 RAF Spitfires fly
uneventful support for the B-24s.
  2. Of 291 B-17s, 107 hit the Kiel port area, 55 hit the Hemminstedt oil
refinery and 54 hit Cuxhaven; 21 B-17s are damaged. Escort is provided by 48
P-38s and 84 P-51s without loss.
  3. Of 459 B-17s, 377 hit the Peenemunde experimental establishment,
scientific HQ at Zinnowitz, and marshalling yards at Stralsund; 3 B-17s are
lost and 64 damaged. Escort is provided by 297 P-38s and P-51s; they claim
21-0-12 Luftwaffe aircraft; 3 P-51s are lost (2 pilot are MIA) and 1 is
damaged beyond repair.
  25 B-24s fly CARPETBAGGER missions in France during the night; 1 B-24
collides with an RAF aircraft over France and is lost.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, 400+ B-26s and A-20s hit
various military targets in support of the ground forces in the Caen area,
and later in the day bomb rail and highway bridges beyond the frontlines;
large number of fighters fly escort, dive-bomb gun positions at Rouen and
Mantes-la-Jolie, hit military targets in the Chartres area (using rockets),
attack gun positions, bridges, and other targets in the Benney-Alencon-Saint-
Lo area, and fly armed reconnaissance and fighter sweeps over wide areas of N
and W France. In England, HQ 98th Combat Bombardment Wing (Medium) moves from
Earls Colne to Beaulieu; and HQ 387th Bombardment Group (Medium) moves from
Chipping Ongar to Stony Cross. The following squadrons, based in England,
begin operating from bases in Italy with C-47s:
  - 91st, 92d and 94th Troop Carrier Squadrons, 439th Troop Carrier Group,
based at Upottery operating from Orbetello Airfield.
  - 95th, 96th and 97th Troop Carrier Squadrons, 440th Troop Carrier Group,
based at Exeter operating from Ombrone Airfield.
  - 99th, 100th and 302d Troop Carrier Squadrons, 441st Troop Carrier Group,
based at Merryfield operating from Grosseto.
  - 303d, 304th and 305th Troop Carrier Squadrons, 442d Troop Carrier Group,
based at Weston Zoyland operating from Follonica.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Germany, 200 B-24s and B-17s
attack Memmingen Airfield and the Dornier aircraft works at Manzell, and
Casarsa della Delizia railroad bridge in Italy; 250-300 fighters oppose the
formations attacking targets in Germany, beginning the interception at the N
Adriatic coast, continuing to the targets and back as far as the Brenner
Pass; 20 AAF aircraft are lost; the bombers and escorting fighters claim 66
fighters shot down.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, A-20s bomb a road
junction S of Campi and Sarzana and attack the La Spezia area during the
night of 17/18 Jul; during the day bad weather cancels medium bomber
missions; fighter-bombers, operating on a reduced scale, hit several bridges,
roads, rail lines, and other communication targets and guns N of and in the
battle area as US Fifth Army forces reach Leghorn.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): P-47s pound Tinian and Pagan
Islands. In the Marshall Islands, 5 B-24s, flying out of Kwajalein Atoll, hit
Wotje Atoll. 25 B-24s, staging through Eniwetok Atoll, attack Truk Atoll.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: B-24s strike Yap
Island, bombing the town and Blelatsch peninsula; several of the B-24s bomb
Sorol Atoll. In New Guinea, bad weather prevents strikes on the Vogelkop
Peninsula; fighter-bombers continue to hit barges, supply routes, and troop
concentrations in the coastal area from Aitape to Wewak.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 Jul 1994 07:48:58 -0500
From:    John Davis <JBDML@OSBM6.OSBM.STATE.NC.US>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 18-JUL-1944

On 18-JUL-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The XIX Corps enters St Lo. The Canadian II Corps crosses the
     Orne river southwest of Caen and captures Colombelles and Giberville.
     The British VII Corps attacks in force from the west and reach the line
     Hubert-Folie-La Hogne-Cagny, south of Caen.

Eastern Front - The 1st Ukraine Front captures Bordy, east of Lvov, in Poland.
     Armoured columns of the 1st Belorussian Front advance from Kovel towards
     Lublin. The 3rd Baltic Front threaten Ostrov and Pskov, advanced German
     strongpoints which until now the German have maintained at a high cost.
     West of Grodno the Russian nearly reach the East Prussian border, but
     are halted by a violent counter-attack by the Germans near Augustow.

Italian Front - The US 34th Division opens its final attack on Leghorn. The
     9th Division reaches the Arno at Pontedera. In the British sector, the
     South African 6th Armoured Division reaches and passes Radda in Chianti.
     The 4th Division and British 6th Armoured Division are almost brought to
     a halt in the Arno valley. The 4th Division reaches Montevarchi. The
     Germans are defending Citta di Castello strongly against attacks by the X
     Corps. The Polish II Corps takes Ancona.

New Guinea - The Americans capture the west bank of the Driniumor from the
     mouth to the village of Afua.

Naval Dispatches
----------------
Japanese submarine chaser sunk by submarine PLAICE (SS-390), south of Honshu,
     Japan.

The Homefront
-------------
New Books - "Little Coquette" by Renee McCormick, "Onwards To Victory" by
     Winston Churchill, "Artist At War" by George Biddle.

Huge Death Toll In Munitions Blast - At least 319 people, most of them Navy,
     Coast Guard and Merchant Marine personnel are reported killed or missing
     following the explosion last night of two munitions ships at a Navy
     loading pier at Port Chicago, California, 40 miles northeast of San
     Franciso. Property damage is estimated at $7,000,000.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  jbd@osbm.state.nc.us
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 Jul 1994 07:44:43 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <sep@TVSS2.COMMNET.EDU>
Subject: MISC:Political Correctness at the Smithsonian

Having just returned from my first real vacation, 4 days in Nova Scotia, I
would like to share my experience about historic revisionism and political
correctness rampant in this country.

In Grand Pre, there is a small park dedicated to the early (1750ish) French
settlers who were forcibly deported by the British. Imagine, thousands of
people uprooted, their farms burned to prevent their returning. Surely one
of the worst mass-deportations in history.

Do the Canadians tell the story? You bet they do. The thing is the way they
tell it. They stick to historic facts, present them in an understated way,
and let the visitor reach their own opinions. Conspicuously missing is those
nasty little adjectives so common in the US.

The SI can learn from the Canadians in how to relate historic cruelty without
shame, guilt, or recrimination. Just class.

Sid Allison; I really loved your country. If your coast is as nice as the
East, you are one lucky guy!
                                                                Steve
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - sep@trctc.commnet.edu |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 Jul 1994 08:06:29 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: USS Hugh w. Hadley (DD-774)

Interesting post about the Hadley, Larry; do you also have the one about the
Laffey?  She's currently at Patriot's Point in Charleston, SC.

ken koester
maint2@ers.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 Jul 1994 08:16:43 -0500
From:    John Davis <JBDML@OSBM6.OSBM.STATE.NC.US>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - FTP archive

[I have changed the archive location for the 50 YA articles. Please use the
following instructions to retreive the articles via anonymous FTP.]

The June 1944 50 Years Ago Today articles are now available for downloading
via anonymous FTP.

Instructions for downloading 50 YA articles -

The articles are stored by month. To retrieve the articles by FTP, open host
"ftp.netcom.com", enter "anonymous" when prompted for login ID, enter your
Internet mail address when prompted for password. To change to the directory
where the articles are stored enter "cd /pub/jbd". The file name identifies
the month (example - jun1944.txt, contains the June 1944 articles).

----------
John Davis (jbd@osbm.state.nc.us/jbd@netcom.com)
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 Jul 1994 08:27:58 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: PC at the Smithsonian cont'd

On Fri, 15 Jul 1994 17:45:34 -0500 Bill Smith said:
>I have not seen the Smithsonian display, but I will in two weeks.  From
>what I have read (both here and elsewhere), it is entirely revisionist,
>sensationalist and exhibitionist.

So far, the only things I have seen here about it criticized as "revisionist"
are entirely factual.

>The point is to *display the plane* not make a statement of policy.  PC of
>the right or a cold representation of the event?

To *display the plane* WITHOUT considering its most famous mission or the
results therefrom is *ALSO* to make a political statement--don't kid yourself
otherwise.

>And, IMHO, I did not need a charred body photograph to run chills down my
>spine and give me a cold, sick feeling in the stomach when I touched
>Bock's Car.

That's ok for you. . . but I can think of a few people who need the visuals.

ken koester
maint2@ers.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 Jul 1994 09:52:20 -0400
From:    Emery Ford <eford@DELPHI.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: REF: and LOGISTICS: Vladivostock?

On JUL 16 Rob George wrote:

>Can anybody point me to some references to the use
>of Vladivostock as a port by the Soviets during the
>2nd World War?
>
>Or provide any information directly?
>
>My specific interest is weather-related: what months
>could the port be used? When Vladivostock couldn't be
>used, were there other Soviet Far Eastern ports through
>which Lend-Lease material could be shipped?
>

Hi Rob,

I'm currently reading _World_At_Arms_ by Gerard Weintraub.   In it I
read for the first time that the U.S. funnelled more than half of the
Lend-Lease effort through Vladivostock via U.S. merchant ships that were
reflagged with the Hammer and Sickle so the Japanese wouldn't bomb
them.

This is fascinating to me for two reasons:
1. I was always led to believe that Lend-Lease went to Archangelsk in
the North and through Iran in the South.

2.  U.S. ships flying the Soviet flag seems like a very politically
sensitive move, and perhaps that is why I never before heard of this.

I'll provide more details later, if no one else has.

Emery

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 Jul 1994 10:57:39 -0500
From:    "W.C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <ERCOUPE@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: PC at the Smithsonian cont'd

>So far, the only things I have seen here about it criticized as "revisionist"
>are entirely factual.

>To *display the plane* WITHOUT considering its most famous mission or the
>results therefrom is *ALSO* to make a political statement--don't kid yourself
>otherwise.

>That's ok for you. . . but I can think of a few people who need the visuals.

>ken koester
>maint2@ers.bitnet


Ok Ken...let's stop a minute and consider what you have said here. Assume
that the stuff displayed with the Enola Gay is factual.  If the photos that
show the burned, mutilated bodies are in fact authentic, then they display
what is factual.  Granted.  That still doesn't negate the attempt at
moral revisionism.

But why stop at the Enola Gay?  Let's put the ENTIRE NASM display into a 'PC'
mode and do the following:

How's about a diorama of all the charred test pilots in full detail beneath
the X-planes.  And lets not forget the WWII flight deck simulation there...let's
make it  REAL factual and put a few burned mannequins to make it look like the
USS Franklin.  And what about the Japanese planes...let's place some
photos of charred American sailors from Pearl Harbor around them and
make a statement about surprise attacks.  All of these displays would
be quite factual, would they not?

The point that others are trying to make is that the NASM does not exist
for this purpose.  The political statements are to be kept elsewhere.
Political 'nuances' have no place in the museum.  It is about AVIATION.

Things CAN be presented in an apolitical, balanced way.  The landside
headquarters for the USS Arizona memorial does this quite well, IMHO.

If the descriptions of the display posted so far are accurate, then the
public does have a reason to complain.

Bill
N93774@vms.cis.pitt.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 Jul 1994 10:54:55 CDT
From:    Robert Hohlt <rhohlt@MGMSERV1.MGM.SAIC.COM>
Subject: [EDU/POL] audio visual enhancement

Bill Smith wrote:

 >And, IMHO, I did not need a charred body photograph to run chills
 >down my spine and give me a cold, sick feeling in the stomach when
 >I touched Bock's Car.

Ken Koester followed with:

 >That's ok for you. . . but I can think of a few people who need the
 >visuals.


>From me:

I guess I have to agree with both of you.  I have had the priviledge
of visiting the Arizona Memorial twice in recent years.  Both times
I went the feeling I got is hard to describe except maybe Magical in
a very sober and somber sort of way. But my second visit there, in the
little film room just before you get on the launch, they showed a small
clip from someones private home movie of the Arizona actually blowing
up.  Even with mono sound the sight and sound left me with a terrible
hollow feeling inside.  The audio and visual really made a big
difference.

I also have had the priviledge of living in Houston, close to Seawolf
park in Galveston.  In permanent drydock there is the S.S. Cavalla.
The Cavalla sank the Shokaku (one of the six aircraft carriers that
attacked  Pearl Harbor) on her maiden voyage.  For me, touching the
Cavalla gives me a very satisfied and appreciative feeling.  I don't
need audio or visuals for the Cavalla.

Have any of you list readers seen the Arizona film at Pearl Harbor and
either Bocks Car or Enola Gay?  If you have what were your feelings?

Thanks to ALL of you who have contributed to the discussion on
A-Bomb(s)/Truman, and kept it at a reasonably high level.


regards,


Robert Hohlt, Jr.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 Jul 1994 14:28:42 -0500
From:    Bill Smith <bismith@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: [EDU/POL] audio visual enhancement

In the back of my mind, I knew I had another example of war tragedy
tastefully done, and I thank Mr. Hohlt for having reminded me of it.

I had similar feelings on visiting the Memorial (Pearl Harbor Weekend
last year) and came away with an awesome sense of the meaning -- meaning
in that fuzzy-wuzzy PC-sih sense too -- of the event.

I'll reserve further comment until Aug 1 (I'll be at NA for research and
plan to make a special walk over to NASM to witness the bruhaha).

On Mon, 18 Jul 1994, Robert Hohlt wrote:

> I guess I have to agree with both of you.  I have had the priviledge
> of visiting the Arizona Memorial twice in recent years.  Both times
> I went the feeling I got is hard to describe except maybe Magical in
> a very sober and somber sort of way. But my second visit there, in the
> little film room just before you get on the launch, they showed a small
> clip from someones private home movie of the Arizona actually blowing
> up.  Even with mono sound the sight and sound left me with a terrible
> hollow feeling inside.  The audio and visual really made a big
> difference.
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 Jul 1994 14:32:58 -0500
From:    Bill Smith <bismith@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: PC at the Smithsonian cont'd

On Mon, 18 Jul 1994, Ken Koester wrote:

> On Fri, 15 Jul 1994 17:45:34 -0500 Bill Smith said:
> >I have not seen the Smithsonian display, but I will in two weeks.  From
> >what I have read (both here and elsewhere), it is entirely revisionist,
> >sensationalist and exhibitionist.
>
> So far, the only things I have seen here about it criticized as "revisionist"
> are entirely factual.
>

Fair enough -- strike revisionist.  Make simply "it is entirely
sensationalist and exhibitionist."  Next up -- the Harry Truman exhibit,
complete with placard :^)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 Jul 1994 16:02:19 -0500
From:    Bob Milan <bmilan@MINET.GOV.MB.CA>
Subject: WWII

WWII-L-Request@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 17 Jul 1994 to 18 Jul 1994
*************************************************

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Status: O

There are 15 messages totalling 557 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. [INF] USAAF 19 JUL 44
  2. INF: 50 Years Ago - 19-JUL-1944
  3. PC at the Smithsonian cont'd (6)
  4. MEDIA: PC at the Smithsonian cont'd
  5. Schools (off topic; was: PC at the Smithsonian)
  6. MEDIA: One bomb or two
  7. WW2 in schools
  8. INF:Books regarding British colonial troops in North Africa
  9. RETURNED MAIL: USER UN
 10. Proper Address for mail to AFB

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Jul 1994 06:54:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 19 JUL 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
WEDNESDAY, 19 JULY 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 30+ P-40s and P-51s hit the
Myitkyina area and support ground forces near Kamaing; Myitkyina is also
bombed by 9 B-25s.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 80+ P-40s hit shipping in the
Tungting Lake area, attack targets of opportunity, supply areas, and troop
concentrations around Hengyang, bomb a radio station, storage facilities, and
shipping at Changsha, hit the airfield at Siangtan, and sink about 15 sampans
between Changsha and Siangtan; 31 P-40s and P-51s bomb and strafe the Samshui
town and dock area and hit several troop compounds in the Lienchiangkou
vicinity. In NE French Indochina, 4 P-40s claim 25 junks sunk at the coast.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 482: 1,082 of 1,242
B-17s and B-24s and 670 of 761 P-38s, P-47s, and P-51s dispatched, operating
in 5 forces, attack targets in W and SW Germany including 2 plants producing
hydrogen peroxide (an ingredient in V-weapon fuels), a chemical plant, 2
aircraft factories, 4 ball bearing plants, 6 marshalling yards, 4 airfields,
and a river dam; 17 bombers and 7 fighters are lost. Attacks in the the
Munich area are followed, within 90 minutes, by Fifteenth Air Force attacks.
731 fighters, operating in 19 separate units support the bombers; 8 of these
units afterwards strafe ground targets, including parked aircraft,
locomotives and rolling stock, and road vehicles. The bombers claim 6-4-4
Luftwaffe aircraft; the fighters claim 17-0-4 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air
and 38-0-14 on the ground.
  Mission 483: 5 of 5 B-17s drop leaflets in France and Belgium during the
night.
  5 B-24s fly CARPETBAGGER missions during the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, during the afternoon 262
B-26s and A-20s bomb bridges on the Loire and Seine Rivers and a fuel dump at
Bruz; fighters provide escort and, though limited by bad weather, hit rail
lines and scattered enemy installations and movements in the Amiens-Tours-
Chartres area and along the Ghent-Brussels, Belgium railroad; HQ 373d Fighter
Group arrives at Tour-en-Bassin from Woodchurch, England; and the 513th
Fighter Squadron, 406th Fighter Group, moves from Ashford, England to Tour-
en-Bassin with P-47s. The 83d, 84th, 85th and 86th Troop Carrier Squadrons,
437th Troop Carrier Group, based at Ramsbury, England begin operating from
Montala Airfield, Italy with C-47s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Germany, 400+ B-17s and
B-24s bomb an ordnance depot, an aircraft factory, a motor works, and an
airfield in the Munich area; P-51s and P-38s fly 300+ sorties in support;
enemy fighter opposition is weak but flak is heavy and accurate; 16 AAF
aircraft are shot down and several are missing.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, weather again restricts
medium bomber operations, but in the late afternoon B-26s hit bridges at
Piacenza and Ostiglia; B-25s bomb a bridge at Sassuolo; fighter-bombers are
limited to a few railroad targets as the US Fifth Army takes Leghorn and
moves N; HQ 64th Fighter Wing moves from Orbetello to Santa Maria di Capua;
and HQ Fighter Group and the 315th and 316th Fighter Squadrons move from
Montalto di Castro to Corsica with P-47s. The 347th Fighter Squadron, 350th
Fighter Group, moves from Corsica to Sardinia with P-39s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): P-47s continue to bomb and
strafe Tinian Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: B-24s, striking in
2 waves, attack the airfield on Yap Island; several of the B-24s become
separated from the formations and bomb Ngulu and Sorol Atolls in the Caroline
Islands. In New Guinea, weather again cancels strikes on the Vogelkop
Peninsula area; fighter-bomber's hit stores, gun positions, and targets of
opportunity along the Dandriwad River and support Allied ground forces in the
Sarmi-Sawar sector.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Jul 1994 07:32:32 -0500
From:    John Davis <JBDML@OSBM6.OSBM.STATE.NC.US>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 19-JUL-1944

On 19-JUL-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The US XIX Corps continues pushing southward after capturing
     St Lo. In the British sector, the Canadian 2nd Division captures Louvigny
     and Fleury. East of Caen the British I Corps and German LXXXVI Corps are
     engaged in heavy combat. Large numbers of tanks are engaged from both
     sides. The Germans have the advantage of better position as well as
     better armament.

Eastern Front - The 1st Ukraine Front surrounds five German divisions west
     of Brody. Further north, just east of Dvinsk, Russian units enter Latvia.

Italian Front - The US 34th Division takes Leghorn. The 4th Moutain Division
     of the French Expeditionary Corps reaches Certaldo. The South African 6th
     Armoured Division is advancing between the Chianti hills. Units of the
     British 6th Armoured Division secure a new crossing over the Arno river
     near Laterina.

New Guinea - In the Aitape area, fighting continues near Afua.

Naval Dispatches
----------------
Japanese light cruiser OI sunk by submarine FLASHER (SS-249), South China Sea.

Japanese submarine RO-48 sunk by destroyer escort WYMAN (DE-38), central
     Pacific area.

The Homefront
-------------
Democratic Convention Opens - The Democratic National Convention has opened in
     Chicago with a keynote speech given by Governor Robert S. Kerr of
     Oklahoma. Governor Kerr asks for "continued support of the Commander in
     Chief" and ridicules hints by Gov. Thomas E. Dewey that President
     Roosevelt and his aides are "tired old men". He points out that President
     Roosevelt at 62 is younger than Stalin, Churchill, Gens. Marshall and
     MacArthur and Adms. Nimitz and Halsey.

Congressional Medal Of Honor Awarded - Marine Pvt. Richard Keith Sorenson has
     received the Medal of Honor for saving five companions by throwing
     himself on a Japanese grenade during the Marshall Islands invasion.
     Sorenson received the medal in Seattle where he is convalescing from
     serious injuries.

Most Popular Songs - Variety reports that the most popular songs based on
     sales and broadcasts are: "I'll Be Seeing You", "Long Ago and Far Away",
     "Amor", "I'll Get By" and "Swingin' On A Star".

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  jbd@osbm.state.nc.us
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Jul 1994 09:44:34 -0500
From:    "Frank W. Patnaude, Jr. ACS x2857" <MIS0028@UMBCADMN.BITNET>
Subject: Re: PC at the Smithsonian cont'd

I have not had the priviledge to see the new Smithsonian display, (but
since I live in Baltimore, it is only a matter of time), but I did have
the priviledge of visiting the Arizona Memorial last December and it left
me with quite an impression. Of course, a lot of the meaning came from the
fact that one of my hobbies is WWII history (especially naval), and I knew
the history, significance, and result of Pearl Harbor. (By the way, on my
flight out, I got to look and how the Japanese planes came in to attack
Pearl, and that was also quite an experiance.)
        I did get to see the home movie that was shot, and I can only say
that the whole experiance was very mystical. (It's the same feeling I get
any time that I go to NASM.)
        A couple of years back, a friend of mine ordered a pizza and went to
write a check out to the 19-year-old (or so) pizza guy. He asked what date it
was, and the pizza guy said "December 7th". My friend replied "Oh, a day that
will live in infamy." The pizza guy asked "What do you mean by that?" My friend
told him "Today is the day that the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor." The pizza
guy replied "Oh, I sorry, I haven't had a chance to watch the news today."
        This goes to show that without knowledge of the history of the event,
such as Pearl Harbor or the Enola Gay, just looking at the plane probably
would not mean too much. I believe that they should have some sort of "history
lesson" along with the displaying of the plane, but if the reports of the
pictures of charred bodies, etc., are part of that lesson, then IMHO, it is
far too graphic in nature. ESPECIALLY, when you consider that there are many
parents walking around with young children. Children will eventually learn
of the horrors of war, but I believe that they should at least be of an age
so that they can understand the horror of war.

Just my $.02

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Frank W. Patnaude, Jr.
University of Maryland, Baltimore County Campus
Applications Programmer
frank_patnaude@umbcadmn.bitnet
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Jul 1994 10:58:19 -0400
From:    Wendy Slader <wslader@ACAD.BRYANT.EDU>
Subject: Re: PC at the Smithsonian cont'd

On Tue, 19 Jul 1994, Frank W. Patnaude, Jr. ACS x2857 wrote:

>         A couple of years back, a friend of mine ordered a pizza and went to
> write a check out to the 19-year-old (or so) pizza guy. He asked what date it
> was, and the pizza guy said "December 7th". My friend replied "Oh, a day that
> will live in infamy." The pizza guy asked "What do you mean by that?" My friend
> told him "Today is the day that the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor." The pizza
> guy replied "Oh, I sorry, I haven't had a chance to watch the news today."

How sad that a 19-year-old in the '90's should react that way.  Sadly, I
was a 19-year old in the 80's and so many of my peers would probably have
reacted the very same way.  WWII was more a less a "blurb" in our history
books (U.S. History in general).  It sort of skirted around the more
prevalent subjects of George Washington, the cherry tree, JFK, Civil
Rights and of course--Teddy and Chappaquiddick.  Who's to blame, really?
Although it was tough for him, in retrospect I am so thankful that my
father happened to have grown up during the Great Depression and served
as a paratrooper in WWII; he was my history book.

Ignorance is not necessarily "bliss."
Wendy Slader

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Jul 1994 11:21:02 EDT
From:    Brian Nicklas <NASAD003@SIVM.SI.EDU>
Subject: Re: PC at the Smithsonian cont'd

Can't help but notice the number of people who have stated that they will
check out the Enola Gay Exhibit at NASM at (some date in the near future).
The exhibit is not up yet, and will not be open until after the first months
of 1995.  If you go now, by all means get your last look at the Vertical
Flight Gallery, or the German Arado Ar 234B jet bomber.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Jul 1994 09:31:24 -0700
From:    Jack Brown <velmeran@DIVER.OCEAN.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: PC at the Smithsonian cont'd

>         A couple of years back, a friend of mine ordered a pizza and went to
> write a check out to the 19-year-old (or so) pizza guy. He asked what date it
> was, and the pizza guy said "December 7th". My friend replied "Oh, a day that
> will live in infamy." The pizza guy asked "What do you mean by that?" My friend
> told him "Today is the day that the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor." The pizza
> guy replied "Oh, I sorry, I haven't had a chance to watch the news today."

Please tell me that's a joke.  Please.  Our schools can't be that
pathetic, can they?

One of my hobbies is WWII naval history too.  One of these days, I WILL
get to see the AZ memorial.  A few years ago, I was in DC to interview
for the Navy's Nuclear Power program and I got to see the Vietnam
Memorial.  That was emotional.  My father was career Air Force and fought
in WWII, Korea and Vietnam, so I have always had a good idea of the
meaning of these sort of things.  (The other thing that got to me was the
Bill of Rights...)

=========================================================================
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things  | velmeran@diver.ocean.
I cannot change, the courage to change the things |   washington.edu
I can and the wisdom to hide the bodies of those  | velmeran@aol.com
people I had to kill because they pissed me off.  | aka Jack Brown
=========================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Jul 1994 12:52:58 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: PC at the Smithsonian cont'd

You *totally* missed it, Ken.  Obviously, Enola Gay was saved
  because she dropped the bomb.  The question at issue is why
  the Smithsonian is omitting the *reason* we had to use the
  bomb--specifically:  the evil and fanaticism of the Imperial
  Japanese.

It's not a matter of being "right-wing."  It's a matter of
  presenting the tragedy in its full, objective historical
  context.

Lou Coatney,  Historian at Large  :-)

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Jul 1994 13:45:39 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Schools (off topic; was: PC at the Smithsonian)

I know we're kinda diverting from the focus a bit here, but ...

> >         A couple of years back, a friend of mine ordered a pizza and went to
> > write a check out to the 19-year-old (or so) pizza guy. He asked what date it
> > was, and the pizza guy said "December 7th". My friend replied "Oh, a day that
> > will live in infamy." The pizza guy asked "What do you mean by that?" My frien
> d
> > told him "Today is the day that the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor." The pizza
> > guy replied "Oh, I sorry, I haven't had a chance to watch the news today."
>
> Please tell me that's a joke.  Please.  Our schools can't be that
> pathetic, can they?

Yes, they can.  Some of them, at least.

My personal opinion (since the time I was about halfway through 8th
grade and remains in effect today) is that the schools do a reasonably
good job of giving you a very (Very!) basic overview of kindof a gross
picture of the world and also gives you the tools and resources to learn
more on your own.  But the schools do not encourage you to do anything of
the sort (individual teachers do, but it doesn't seem to be a major agenda
of many public school systems).  [In fact, when I entered kindergarten (!!),
my parents were called into school and royally chewed-out because the school
was angry that they had taught me to read -- they were told, flat out, that
this was the _school's_ responsibility and not the parents... How times have
changed...]

In any case, one of the cable access groups in the Twin Cities, a couple of
years ago now, went to the area high schools and asked some very basic,
simple historical questions.  One of the most memorable ones I recall was
the question "what happened in 1776?"  That got several answers including:
"The Vietnam War started," "Columbus discovered America," "The Germans
bombed Pearl Harbor" and "I've got no idea."

I have a hard time criticizing the school system when people don't know
WWII as intimately as they _should_, because the system often doesn't
have the opportunity to teach a _lot_ of things as well as it should.
But I wasn't taught by the system.  I read the books, did the exercises
and passed the tests, but everything else I did on my own.  I feel
fortunate I had some good teachers that not only encouraged self-teaching
and research, but developed entire classes around the concept.  What people
can walk out of high school and college _not_ knowing is sometimes as
surprising as what they do know.

Since it's difficult for the schools to do substantially better than they
are today, I've always felt it's important for "us" with all our varied
interests and events of importance, to at least make the topic interesting
enough to encourage people to look into it.  I'd just like to see the
school system embrace these external sources a bit more...

Just don't ask me anything about the cotton gin.  :-)

Since this is off-topic, I suppose I wouldn't encourage much further
speculation or deliberation on the topic.  Just happens to be a pet
peeve of mine, a long-term mild critic of public education.  :-)

Follow-ups to the author.

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Jul 1994 16:10:49 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <sep@TVSS2.COMMNET.EDU>
Subject: MEDIA: One bomb or two

An intelligent discussion between rational people of differing viewpoints
is perhaps the best way to learn in a truly profound manner...

With such in mind, I have read the discussion between several persons of
no small stature discussing the matter of the second bomb at Nagasaki. The
issue seems to hinge upon whether the Japaneese government had a reasonable
time to react to the first bomb before the second was dropped. I'd like to
add my two cents, if I may.

I remember having read, tho the source escapes me, about a Japaneese gvt
official who survived the Hiroshima blast. He flew a badly damaged plane
out to convey the news to the outside world. I remember reading this because
he mentioned the bent tail of the plane, and how it was barely airworthy...

Also, I don't know whether you consider Reader's Digest an authority, but I
looked at their volumn "Illustrated History of World War II" last nite. This
book was written 25 or so years ago, with submissions by both US German, and
Japaneese principles. The book mentions that the Japaneese high command was
aware within hours that the bomb was dropped, and with Truman's press conference
announcements, was aware that it was, in fact, a new weapon of terrifying power.

The book then goes on to tell that the high command clamped the lid on what
actually happened because they wanted to have a home front battle, and the
resultant glory/loss of life, etc. The books also states that they beleived
the bomb was a fluke, and that the Americans were bluffing when we promised
more bombings.

After Nagasaki, the Emporer took charge and pretty much directed the surrender.

This is as I recall reading, I'm sure that there are more qualified members of
the list, who can correct any errors I may have. It is in the scholarly pursuits
that I welcome these corrections.

My two cents, Thanx for letting it through, Joe. I remain a humble observer...

                                                                Steve

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - sep@trctc.commnet.edu |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Jul 1994 16:19:49 -0500
From:    Bill Smith <bismith@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: PC at the Smithsonian cont'd

Our ignorance may be bliss.  I thought I saw a post a few weeks back that
some small version of this future full-blown exhibit was tucked in a
corner -- something about part of a 29 and a Japanese suicide bomb.

If not, I'll enjoy the Arado.  A great disappointment was visiting
during the middle of the naval aircraft redesign AND the WW I area --
both closed -- a few years back.

On Tue, 19 Jul 1994, Brian Nicklas wrote:

> Can't help but notice the number of people who have stated that they will
> check out the Enola Gay Exhibit at NASM at (some date in the near future).
> The exhibit is not up yet, and will not be open until after the first months
> of 1995.  If you go now, by all means get your last look at the Vertical
> Flight Gallery, or the German Arado Ar 234B jet bomber.
>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Jul 1994 16:34:02 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>
Subject: Re: PC at the Smithsonian cont'd

> > was, and the pizza guy said "December 7th". My friend replied "Oh, a day that
> > will live in infamy." The pizza guy asked "What do you mean by that?" My frien
> d
> > told him "Today is the day that the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor." The pizza
> > guy replied "Oh, I sorry, I haven't had a chance to watch the news today."
>
> Please tell me that's a joke.  Please.  Our schools can't be that
> pathetic, can they?

Even if it began as a joke, it's funny because it's true. One time I
heard a professor claim one of his students asked him: "How many world
wars were there, anyway?"

I went to a party a few weeks later and told this story to a young woman
who'd just graduated from Yale. Then the zinger: "Meredith, how *many*
world wars were there?" God, you could see the gears spinning in there,
before finally she said, very timidly: "Two?"

I mean, go figure. I was born in 1931. The Spanish-American War was older
history to me than WWII was to her.

Anyhow, stupidity is relative. My wife asked me who O J Simpson was, and
I explained he was the black football player turned movie star who served
as Robert Kennedy's bodyguard and tackled Sirhan Sirhan.

I would still think so, if Rosie Greer hadn't sent his best wishes to O J.

            - Dan      <dan.ford@unh.edu>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Jul 1994 09:13:32 +1000
From:    John Foster <PHS1A@CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: WW2 in schools

On Tue, 19 Jul 1994, Frank W. Patnaude, Jr. ACS x2857 wrote:

>         A couple of years back, a friend of mine ordered a pizza and went to
> write a check out to the 19-year-old (or so) pizza guy. He asked what date it
> was, and the pizza guy said "December 7th". My friend replied "Oh, a day that
> will live in infamy." The pizza guy asked "What do you mean by that?" My frien
d
    The schools aren't all to blame. It illustrates the problem of general
history courses in covering the time period involved with the time available.
I am doing history with the 19 year olds this semester (Australia in the 20th
Century) and WW2 gets two 1hour lectures and a 1hr tutorial,the same as
Vietnam. The tutors comments on Vietnam was "you may even know someone in your
family that had some connection".All eyes turned in my direction and I got the
impression that it was about as far back as most kids modern history
went.Before that it is probably almost ancient history.Should be interesting
when we get to it.
Regards
John Foster

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Jul 1994 20:34:27 -0400
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: INF:Books regarding British colonial troops in North Africa

FORGOTTEN ALLIES sounds like an interesting book.
However, one wonders *who* "forgot" the British Commonwealth troops?
The Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders, and South African forces'
fine contricbutions in combat in two world wars are very widely known.
They have been written about -- and filmed -- very often and are familiar
to everyone with even the slightest knowledge of the world wars.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Jul 1994 20:50:19 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: RETURNED MAIL: USER UN

ok 75130D

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 Jul 1994 22:16:00 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET>
Subject: Proper Address for mail to AFB

Can someone tell me the proper way to address a letter to an AFB?

Someting like

Commanding General Altus AFB OK                 ?????

Thanks...

George Bauer
U.S.A.:  BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 18 Jul 1994 to 19 Jul 1994
*************************************************

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There are 31 messages totalling 1207 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. INF:Books regarding British colonial troops in North Africa (2)
  2. 20 July 1944 - 20 July 1994
  3. MEDIA: PC at the Smithsonian cont'd (8)
  4. INF: 50 Years Ago - 20-JUL-1944
  5. Ref: Oshkosh
  6. GEN re: Enola Gay exhibit (2)
  7. Armor on Iowa Battleships (4)
  8. usaaf 20 jul 44
  9. INQ:Question (2)
 10. WW2 in schools (5)
 11. WANT: WWII PBY footage
 12. Proper Address for mail to AFB
 13. Russian capture of Berlin
 