Subject: WWII-L Digest - 4 Jul 1994 to 5 Jul 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 1994 00:00:25 -0400

There are 32 messages totalling 1031 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. WEAP: Mosquito and PERSONNEL: Aircrew duties?
  2. 50TH: THE 4TH DIVISION ATTACKS SOUTH
  3. INF: USN Chronology 07-05-94
  4. [INF] USAAF 5 JUL 44
  5. INF: 50 Years Ago - 05-JUL-1944
  6. HIST: Einzatzgruppen
  7. 50TH: CELEBRATING JULY 4
  8. KB1MK de WA1KWA
  9. Politics & the Smithsonian (2)
 10. GEN: US ARMY LIBERATION OF CONCENTRATION CAMPS?
 11. Travis AFB B-29
 12. E. Front Armour
 13. Einsatzgruppe C
 14. ADMIN: Crossposting?  The culprit speaks.  :-)
 15. Trivial Nonsense (3)
 16. GEN RE: Colorization and loss of historic film (5)
 17. DC-3
 18. Thoughts
 19. HIST: More on Einsatzgruppen
 20. Trivial Nonsense & colorization (2)
 21. REF: Planned Invasdion of Japan?
 22. Invasion of Japan (was:Politics & the Smithsonian)
 23. USMC color films
 24. Signoff WWii-l

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 00:26:55 -0400
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Mosquito and PERSONNEL: Aircrew duties?

Speaking for RAF/RCAF aircrews, they flew as many nights a week as
weather allowed and targets demanded. In total, bomber crews flew
30 operations (raids), which was a full "tour of ops", after which
they were taken off bombing operations.  (That is assuming that they
actually *survived* flying 30 ops.  The odds were greatly against
survival.
Mosquito aircraft were, as you said, in a number of different
configurations -- bombers, fighters, photo-reconnaisance, etc. The
pilot had a second crew member with him -- who had the role(s) of
navigator, bomb-aimer, radio-operator, radar-operator, gun-loader...

--

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 02:20:58 +0200
From:    John Ausland <[email-masked]>
Subject: 50TH: THE 4TH DIVISION ATTACKS SOUTH

  Oslo, July 5, 1994

  Excerpt from Chapter 5 of LETTERS HOME: A WAR MEMOIR-

          * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
          *                                                     *
          *    AFTER CHERBOURG, THE 4TH DIVISION TURNS SOUTH    *
          *                                                     *
          * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

          After helping establish the beachhead and capture
          Cherbourg, the 4th Division moved south, where other
          divisions were running into determined German resistance
          in a countryside filled with small fields. These were
          surrounded by hedgerows, piles of dirt topped by shrubs
          and trees, which made ideal defensive positions. This
          meant the infantry had to fight its way from hedgerow to
          hedgerow, a demoralizing and costly operation.

          The need to integrate thousands of green men who were
          replacing the casualties was a further handicap. As the
          4th Division commander, Maj. Gen Raymond O. Barton,
          commented with regret, "We no longer have the division
          we brought ashore."

          There were also a number of command changes. General
          Barton sent his Chief of Staff, Col. James S. Rodwell, to
          succeed Col. Van Fleet, who left the division to begin his
          climb to four stars. The rumor was that General Barton
          wanted to give Col. Rodwell combat command experience,
          so he could qualify for a star.

          Though the fighting was a grim business, there was a
          tragicomic moment. A German appeared one day bearing
          a white flag. He told our interpreter, Lt. Boatlander, that
          his unit wanted to surrender. His commander, however,
          wanted an American officer to come to his company
          command post. They would go together to the battalion
          command post and see if they could persuade the whole
          battalion to surrender. Suddenly Col. Rodwell appeared
          and wanted to know what was holding up the attack.
          When told, he just snorted and said, "Can't you see. They
          are just stalling for time. Get on with the attack." When
          the interpreter suggested he would like at least to try,
          Col. Rodwell said, "Son, you are naive. If you go over
          there, they will move you from one headquarters to
          another, and first thing you know you will be in Berlin.
          Then what will you do?" Boatlander looked as his feet
          and replied, "Well, sir, maybe I could end the war."

          That ended the discussion. As the German returned to
          his lines, Col. Rodwell commented to us, "You men might
          as well face it. The Germans are better soldiers than you
          are." On this encouraging note, the fighting resumed.

          A letter I wrote home about this time reflected optimistic
          weariness.

          Dear Dad, Somewhere in France, July 5, 1944

          Again I say - welcome back to the United States, a grand
          place to be. Really regret not being able to be there to
          meet you. However, it seems that, as always, the
          Germans are hard to convince they are licked, so I'll have
          to stay around here a bit longer.

          We've sweated out twenty-one days of continuous
          engagement from the beach to Cherbourg and came
          through in pretty good order, at least better than Jerry
          enjoyed. It was pretty tough going at times, but that is to
          be expected.

          There's no reason not to expect things to go well, and
          with continuous efforts on all three fronts, I'm almost
          tempted at times to be optimistic.

          Love, John

          P.S. Less you be getting grey haired about my progress,
          I'm in a captain's job as liaison officer to an infantry
          battalion.

  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 01:16:16 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 07-05-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
07/05 Wed.  German submarines sunk:
             U-133, by destroyer escorts THOMAS (DD-102) and BAKER
              (DE-190), North Atlantic area,
              42 d. 16'N., 59 d. 49'W.
             U-586, by aircraft, Toulon, France.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 07:12:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 5 JUL 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
WEDNESDAY, 5 JULY 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  A-36, North American Apache
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  F-6, North American Mustang
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma 20+ P-40s and A-36s continue
support in the Myitkyina sector while 12 other aircraft fly armed
reconnaissance in the same area; 20+ other P-40s, P-51s, and A-36s hit
targets of opportunity in the areas around Hopin, Namma, and Naungtalaw; the
town area of Naungtalaw also is pounded by 11 B-25s.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 136 fighter-bombers and 64 B-25s
attack targets throughout the Tungting Lake area; targets include river
shipping, warehouses, troops, artillery, trucks, and other targets of
opportunity at Liling, Lukou, Pingkiang, Yungfengshih, Siangyin, and Chuting;
Hengyang Airfield is bombed, and supplies are dropped to Chinese forces in
the vicinity; in the Salween area 40 transports drop supplies to Chinese
forces on the battleline, and 4 fighter-bombers pound the town and vicinity
of Tengchung; 22 B-24s bomb a supply and ammunition depot at Canton; 6 B-25s
attack airfields in the area; and 5 B-24s lay mines in Shanghai harbor.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 453: 371 bombers and 445
fighters are dispatched to attack 3 airfields in the Netherlands and 2 in
Belgium, a factory near Mol, and 3 V-weapon supply sites in France; 5
fighters are lost:
  1. Of 79 B-17s dispatched to the Netherlands, 38 hit Gilze-Rijen Airfield,
20 hit Volkel Airfield and 19 hit Noll without loss.
  2. Of 221 B-24s, 43 hit Bois de Cassan V-weapon site, 36 hit Le Coulet
Airfield, 29 hit Foret de L'Isle Adam and 29 hit hit Mery sur Oise V-weapon
sites, 13 hit Eindhoven Airfield, 5 hit Melsbroek Airfield and 2 hit Tulemont
Airfield; 49 B-24s are damaged; 1 airman is WIA.
  The two missions above are escorted by 180 of 192 P-51s that claim 4-0-2
Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 1-0-0 on the ground; 2 P-51s are lost
(pilots are MIA).
  3. 70 of 71 B-17s hit Beziers marshalling yard; 13 B-17s are damaged. 228
P-47s and P-51s escort the bombers and claim 18-1-9 Luftwaffe aircraft in the
air and 1-0-0 on the ground; 2 P-47s and 1 P-51 are lost (pilots are MIA).
  Of 93 P-47s, 22 bomb Rouen, 10 hit L'Arche Bridge, 10 hit Seine River
locks, 7 hit Boissy le Bois, 7 hit Pantgouin, 7 hit Veulettes Bridge and 6
hit communication targets; they claim 3-0-0 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and
1-0-0 on the ground; 2 P-47s are lost (pilots are MIA). The P-47s are
escorted by 181 of 190 P-38s; 2 P-38s are lost (pilots MIA) and 1 is damaged
beyond repair.
  During the night, 8 of 8 B-17s drop leaflets in France with the loss of 1
B-17; and 8 B-24s fly CARPETBAGGER missions.
  70 B-17s on shuttle mission (UK-USSR-Italy-UK) attack a marshalling yard at
Beziers, France (with Fifteenth AF B-24s) while on the last leg from Italy to
the UK; 42 P-51s return to UK with the B-17s (of the 11 P-51s remaining in
Italy, 10 return to the UK the following day and the last several days
later).

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, about 180 B-26s and A-20s
bomb bridges at Caen and also sidings, tracks, and rolling stock; in the
afternoon 4 NOBALL (V-weapon) HQ are hit; 600+ fighters escort the bombers,
carry out armed reconnaissance of communication and enemy movements, attack
rail lines, rolling stock, marshalling yards, bridges, supply dumps, and
cover the beach area; HQ 67th Tactical Reconnaissance Group and 107th
Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron move from Middle Wallop, England to Le
Molay with F-6s; the 12th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron, 10th Photographic
Group (Reconnaissance) (attached to 67th Tactical Reconnaissance Group),
moves from Middle Wallop, England to Le Molay with F-6s; and the 380th
Fighter Squadron, 363d Fighter Group, moves from Staplehurst, England to
Maupertus with P-51s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Almost 500 bombers attack
targets in France; B-17s bomb the Montpellier marshalling yards; B-24s bomb
Beziers marshalling yards and Toulon submarine pens and harbor installations;
close to 200 fighter sorties are flown in support of the missions.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s bomb Villafranca
di Verona marshalling yard, Aulla railroad bridge, and Ostiglia fuel dumps
while A-20s blast a supply dump and rail lines; fighter-bombers hit tracks,
bridges, roads, and other targets in the battle area as the US Fifth Army
continues fierce fighting around Rosignano.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): P-47s fly fighter-bomber
operations over Saipan, Rota, and Tinian Islands.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: In the area around
Wewak, New Guinea, A-20s and fighter-bombers hit dumps at Dagua and attack
barges during the night of 4/5 Jul; light strikes are flown in support of
troops on Noemfoor Island and against barges, airfields, and troop
concentrations on Efman and Biak Islands and at Moemi, Manokwari, and in the
Wakde area. B-24s bomb airstrips and AA guns on Yap Island and Woleai Atoll;
Sorol Atoll and Peleliu Island are also hit.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 07:26:34 -0500
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 05-JUL-1944

On 05-JUL-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - Heavy fighting is occuring along the entire Normandy front.
     The La Haye-du-Puits railway station is captured by the US VIII Corps.
     The VII Corps continues to slowly advance towards Periers, along the road
     leading from St Lo to Lessay on the west coast of the Cotentin peninusla.

Italian Front - The battle continues for Rosignano. The US 34th Division makes
     very slow progress against very strong German defences. The British XIII
     Corps meets stiffening German resistance from Vietinghoff's German 10th
     Army.

Marianas - On Saipan, the final stage of the capture of the south part of the
     island begins. The 4th Marine Division makes headway; while the 27th
     Infantry Division is stalled by the Japanese, who are dug in on the north
     side of a ravine called Harakiri Gulch.

New Guinea - On Numfoor Island, the Japanese counter-attack. The attacking
     troops, about 400 strong, are exterminated.

Burma/China - On the Salween river front, the Chinese 8th Army attacks Sung
     Shan from the south and east. Any ground captured is lost though after a
     Japanese counter-attack.

Naval Dispatches
----------------
German submarine U-133 sunk, by destroyer escorts THOMAS (DD-102) and BAKER
     (DE-190), in the North Atlantic area.

German submarine U-586 sunk by air attack, Toulon, France.

The Homefront
-------------
129,500 Women In Shipyards - The Department of Labor has announced that 10.3%
     of the workers in private shipyards are women, totaling 129,500. On the
     Pacific coast, the percentage is 16.1%.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 08:16:25 -0400
From:    Warren Thompson <[email-masked]>
Subject: HIST: Einzatzgruppen

I'll have to check my references (at home), but I seem to recall that a
number of EG commanders were tried after the war. Ironically, one of them,
Artur Nebe, was involved in the officers' plot against Hitler in '44 and
subsequently executed (I don't remember if he had a show trial before the
Volksgerichthof or was simply shot out of hand). Will post more information
later.

-- Warren Thompson
LEBANON VALLEY COLLEGE
Annville PA 17003

[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 08:26:19 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 50TH: CELEBRATING JULY 4

On Mon, 4 Jul 1994 14:00:37 +0200 John Ausland said:
>  The following is an excerpt from a letter I sent to my parents on July 4,
>1944:
>
>          Dear Folks, July 4, 1944, Somewhere in France
>
>          Today, just to celebrate independence day we loaded every
>          gun - as did all battalions in the army - and fired them
>          simultaneously at 1200.

A variant on the "mad minute" (-:  Wonder what the Germans made of it?

ken koester
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 08:37:00 -0500
From:    "Colin Brace (617)726-5085" <[email-masked]>
Subject: KB1MK de WA1KWA

          Well......
          My dad was VE1YZ, my uncle is VE1ASV QTH Sailsbury, NB.

          BTW, wish I had the time/resources to post the "50 years ago"
          column in QST, some great stuff on the contribution of Amateur
          Radio to WW2, the article on the anaveriary of Pearl Harbor
          several years ago was great. My first receiver was an ARC-5, wish
          I had it now, what a collectable.

          There, got the WW2 stuff in to make it "legal" HI!

          Am primarly a cw person, 20 meters, chasing (casually) DX.

          73!

          Colin Brace WA1KWA

          [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 08:55:12 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Politics & the Smithsonian

I thank you, Mr. Dan Ford, for bareing the shenanighans of the Smithsonian
Institution under the glaring light for all to see. I have been a member
for several years, and and now reconsidering.

How sad to see such potential in the hands of such a self-destructive lot!

I wish I hadn't seen the message, but I'm glad I now know.

Thank you sir,
                                                        ;-[Steve
                                                        ,
                                                        ,

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - [email-masked] |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 15:59:31 +0200
From:    John Ausland <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN: US ARMY LIBERATION OF CONCENTRATION CAMPS?

  Oslo, July 5.  Can anyone put me on to material on the US Army liberation of
Nazi concentration camps?  I have a reference to R.H. Abzug, Inside the Vicious
Heart: Americans and the Liberation of Nazi Concentration Camps, 1985.  It is,
however, not available in any Norwegian library.
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 09:22:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Travis AFB B-29

FROM THE AIR FORCE NEWS AGNECY

072.  Miss America '62 returns
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
072.  Miss America '62 returns
by Patti Rogers
     A B-29 bomber hasn't called Travis AFB, California, home since the
1949-58 Strategic Air Command years, but on 18 June the Travis Historical
Society unveiled "Miss America '62" with all the fanfare of a long-lost
friend.
     For almost 10 years, members of the society put in over 12,000
volunteer man-hours restoring the 1944-circa bomber that will become one
of the Travis museum's static displays.
     The aircraft was welcomed to the museum fleet by a host of special
guests including two grandchildren of "the architect of the Air Force,"
General Henry H. "Hap" Arnold.  Also present were six members of the
aircraft's original crew, which flew 23 missions in the aircraft, and five
members of the second crew, which flew 15.  Adding to the history of the
day was the woman whose birth contributed to the aircraft's name.
     The old bomber's journey to Travis began in 1984 when the historical
society learned of some B-29s being stored at China Lake Naval Weapons
Test Facility in Southern California.  Bringing the worn aircraft back to
Travis was a chore, said Warren Bailey, society president.
     "The aircraft was so far out on the test range it had to be pulled by
a road-grader across the desert floor.  Then a volunteer-team spent about
15 days disassembling it so two C-5s and 10 trucks could bring the pieces
to Travis," said Bailey.
     The team removed the engines, the outer wing panels, the vertical and
horizontal tail assemblies, and disassociated the fuselage from the wing in
order to prepare it for the return voyage.
     The museum's restoration hangar housed the disassembled B-29 for the
next several years while it underwent refurbishment.  As the layers of
paint were removed, the plane's identity was revealed.
     Markings indicating the plane's former unit, the 6th Bombardment Group
(Very Heavy), appeared. Other markings aligned the plane to the 24th
Bombardment  Squadron (Very Heavy). The restoration team then found a
reunion group who identified several members of the original crew and a
mini-reunion was held at Travis in 1988 for those who flew Miss America '62
from Tinian Island in 1945.
     By 1992 the exterior was nearly 100 percent complete.  For the last
two years a team of seven volunteers took on the intense task of bringing
the interior of the Superfortress to restored status.
     And these history sleuths couldn't have been more pleased with what
they uncovered.  Near the navigator's seat, tucked under the installation
blanket, is the inscription, "To the G.I.'s good luck," which was written
by Viola Ann Kolinski, who installed installation blankets in B-29s at the
Martin factory in Omaha, Nebraska, in 1944.  She had left her address and
phone number, and the restoration team immediately started to search for
her.
     "She was so excited when we tracked her down," said Bailey.  "She said
it was very nice after all these years to be recognized for what she did."
Because of an illness in the family she wasn't able to attend the dedication.
     However, the bomber's namesake was there.
     The original crew, known as the Alger Crew No. 2409, chose the plane
off the ramp at Tinian Island and set out to name her.  The commander's
wife had just given birth to a daughter and that sparked an idea.
     "One of the crewmembers suggested she represent all the little girls
born that year, and he came up with the idea that they would be eligible to
be Miss America in 1962. Hence Miss America '62 was born."  Linda Alger,
the commander's daughter, participated in the dedication.
     Miss America '62 flew her last bomb mission against Japan and was
still flying the day the Japanese surrendered. After World War II she was
assigned to the Bahamas as a weather reconnaissance aircraft.
     (Rogers is contributing editor to the Travis AFB, Calif., Tailwind)
--

      //^\\
     /// \\\
    ///   \\\
   ///     \\\                    Air Force News Agency
   |         |              Kelly Air Force Base, Texas, USA
   \\ CMSgt //    ___________________ /____________________________________
   \\ Mike  //
   \\Bergman/
    \\    //
       ~~

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 09:16:17 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: E. Front Armour

Hello, Aldo!

Will try to answer your questions.

> BTW I herd last night that Mainstein (sp?) was quoted durning the
> occupation of the Ukraine that he wold feed none of the soviet
> people--food would be allowcated only to the Greman war effort,
> apparently starving the people--any thoughts, corrections on this; if
> true how does this affect ones judgement of him?

    No. Manstein was a professional soldier of the highest
credentials. Had he been shown to have given such an order and
carried it out, I feel certain that the Russians would have had him
up on war crimes, and would have found himself sitting in the dock,
which didn't happen.

    I, personally, have the greatest admiration for his abilities,
for he showed himself to be the consummate professional. Had he been
given control of operations on the Eastern Front from the beginning,
I feel certain that the outcome would have been different. I think
that needs to be considered regardless.

    Will try to get back to you on your questions referencing Soviet
and German tank qualities.

    That is my two cents' worth on the above, and hope you are well.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 09:35:03 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Einsatzgruppe C

Hello, David!

I can add to the answer below, if I may.

> > Lastly, what happened to the Einsatzgruppen when the war ended?  Are any of
> > the men from these mobile death units still around today?
> I don't know if there are many around today, but I don't believe that too
> many were arrested and executed at the end of the war.

    Please consult the excellent work by the trial judge who heard
the cases during the Nuremberg Trials. His name was Justice Michael
A. Musmanno, and the book he wrote in the early 1960's is called "The
Eichmann Commandos". All this is dealt with in great detail here.

    One man, in particular, whose autograph I have been trying to
obtain is that of SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Bruno Streckenbach, who
commanded such a unit. He later commanded the 19th SS Panzer
Grenadier Division "Lettland" (Latvia) on the Eastern Front. He was a
holder of the Knight's Cross with Oakleaves and was the only KC
holder to command an special task force such as this. Mr.
Streckenbach survived the war. He was tried, sentenced to life
imprisonment, but pardoned in 1954, became a bank executive in
Hamburg and died in 1977. I have never seen his autograph anywhere,
and I have extensive contacts both here and abroad. This is just for
your information.

 One thing about the Einsatzgruppen. If you can get hold of a bio of
each of the individuals who commanded them, you will find that they
were above average intelligence, in most cases professional people,
and most possessed a univeristy education. It makes one wonder!

Hope this helps.

Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 09:58:33 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: Crossposting?  The culprit speaks.  :-)

Hello, Lou!

If you asking for speculation, I would like to add my two cents'
worth to this.

 >      Thought the topic (even more) applicable to WWII-
L. > I'd like to see if John Lundstrom and a few other folks here
> think the Japanese could have taken Hawaii in Dec41.

    Yes, if the Japanese had had the will to do so. However, their
problem would have been to try to hang on to it, as it would have
been so far behind their lines that they would have been really hard
put to supply the island. Also, the Japanese would have had to
contend with a hostile population which would have made their staying
there most uncomfortable, time consuming and requiring many troops
for occupation duties.

    Also, given the lack of technology at the time, particularly with
the Japanese not even considering an invasion of the US, what good
would it have done them to occupy the island? Where were they going
to go, and even with the most modest plans under consideration at the
time, the Japanese simply didn't possess the materiel or other
wherewithal to sustain operations in any direction from that quarter
had they been successful in occupying the island. As I see it, the
Japanese would have been faced with many more negatives than
positives had they occupied Pearl Harbor.

    I also think that there would have been a concerted effort made
from here to retake the island at the earliest possible opportunity,
as, regarding our future intentions, it would have been an
impossibility to conduct those operations without possessing the
naval base at Pearl Harbor.

    Hope this helps, and that is my two cents' worth on this.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 11:08:16 -0400
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Trivial Nonsense

>> occupation of the Ukraine that he wold feed none of the soviet

It's poll time - is it "the Ukraine" or "Ukraine"?  My grandparents
emigrated from Ukraine (you can see my answer to the poll) and my ethnic
pride has at times forced me into fun little water-cooler discussions. The
word "Ukraine" actually roughly means "the frontier" so using the term "the
Ukraine" could be construed as saying "the the frontier".  Of course you
wouldn't say that "Sherman marched through the Georgias" but you could say
"Sherman marched through the Carolinas".  Just curious if anyone had the
end-all answer on Ukraine (ooops there I go again).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka                                         National Warplane Museum
Cornell University                                 Geneseo, New York
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 10:22:03 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN RE: Colorization and loss of historic film

Hello, Sid!

 I think it is
> quite presumptious of anyone (even if they are Ted Turner) to colorize
> documenting footage.

    I completely agree with you. I can't imagine why anyone would
want to colorize a film, originally shot in B&W when the director or
producer want to create a film for its artistic value as well, and
color doesn't get it.

    However, I have heard that colorized movies will be viewed by
more people, particularly younger people, and the almighty dollar is
the name of the game. That and ratings.

    I guess you can always turn the "color" knob on the set to
eliminate color and view the film in B&W. But even so!

    Thanks for allowing my thoughts on this as well.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 10:27:10 EST
From:    Roger Coon <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Trivial Nonsense

According to a recent newsarticle that I read only God knows where,
it is officially Ukraine and Ukrainian officials have been stressing the
point.  I have to admit, I grew up saying The Ukraine and it will be a while
before it wears off.
************************************************
Roger (Brad) Coon            "Better to have one
[email-masked]          freedom too many,
[email-masked]    than to have one
                              too few."

Politically incorrect and proud of it.
Niquimictitoc inana Bambi.
************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 12:05:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: DC-3

For those of you in the New York metro area, WNET, Channel 13, is
rebroadcasting the NOVA program entitled THE PLANE THAT CHANGED THE WORLD
tonight at 2000-2100 EDT.  This is the story of the DC-3/C-47/C-48/C-49/
C-50/C-51/C-52/C-53/C-117/R4D/Dakota/Gooney Bird, etc. on the 50th
anniversary of it's first flight in 1936.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 11:52:00 -0500
From:    "Colin Brace (617)726-5085" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Thoughts

          RE: (The) Ukraine terminology; I recall in Churchill's WW2
          History he referred to what we now commonly refer to Lebanon as
          'The Lebanon'.

          RE: Smithsonian PC; I speak as the secretary of my town's
          Historical Society, slightly smaller than the Smithsonian (!).
          Just wondering where their funding is coming from lately. Has
          there been a gradual shift to non-domestic grants/gifts? Not to
          be the eternal cynic, but this may have something to do with the
          presentation. Translation: Money talks.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 12:00:26 -0400
From:    Warren Thompson <[email-masked]>
Subject: HIST: More on Einsatzgruppen

For David and other interested parties: THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF THE HOLOCAUST,
Vol 2, has an excellent article on the EG, including a map of their theaters
of operation and a short bibliography. Beginning in July 1947, the US held
trials of EG leaders. See THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA v. OTTO OHLENDORF et
al, US Govt Printing Office. This is one of the "Subsequent Nuremberg
Proceedings," the ninth trial conducted by the Nuremberg Military Tribunals.

See also Lozowick, Y. "Rollbahn Mord: The Early Activities of Einsatzgruppe
C," HOLOCAUST AND GENOCIDE STUDIES, 2/2 (1987), 221-241.

Hope this helps.

-- Warren Thompson

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 12:40:58 -0400
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Trivial Nonsense

Perhaps interestingly (or not) I grew up referring to your homeland as
"Ukrainia". I'm a generation or so older, so maybe it's another example
of how country names can change within a relatively short period of time.
        On the same note, for instance, it is onlt recently that people
from Argentina have become called "Argentinians".  Until quite recently,
they were called, simply, "Argentines".

--

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 11:46:00 EST
From:    Daniel Malepart <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Politics & the Smithsonian

From:   NAME: Daniel Malipart
        FUNC: PARI/CPA/Montreal
        TEL: (514) 283-0348                   <MALEPART@A1@ATMONT>
To:     in%"[email-masked]"@nrc@outside

    If I can add my two-cent worth to the debate...

    I don't think it is correct to try to make a judgment on past actions
    based on present-day values...

    If you take the action of dropping the A-bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki
    totally out of its context, based on what we know today on a nuclear
    explosion's effects, sure, you'll come up with the conclusion that "the
    Americans were immoral and the Japanese were victims"...

    *BUT*, if we look at the bigger picture, and consider the Japanese's
    fanaticism, and the options available at the time to bring the war to
    its conclusion (eg. full-scale invasion of Japan per se), we can maybe
    understand - if not approve - the use of the bomb.

    I remember reading somewhere about a plan for the invasion of the
    Japanese mainland - I think it was called "Operation Olympics".  If I
    remember correctly, one of the generals involved in its planning
    predicted that there would be 100,000 US deaths in this invasion.
    Sorry I don't remember where I read about this - I think it was in an
    old issue of Life magazine (If someone on WWII-L can give me references
    on this invasion plan, I would be pleased!).

    It is easy to make a judgment on things that happened in the past -
    esp. when the peoples who made the decisions are not around anymore.
    But I think we should make an effort in trying to understand the
    context before we make that judgment.

    Daniel Malepart, Computer specialist | "Il faut detester la guerre et
    Montreal, Quebec, Canada             | respecter ceux qui l'ont faite."
    [email-masked]            | - Antoine de St-Exupery

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 13:36:41 -0400
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN RE: Colorization and loss of historic film

Terry Moore <[email-masked]> writes:
>     I guess you can always turn the "color" knob on the set to
> eliminate color and view the film in B&W. But even so!

        Actually, this won't recapture the original picture.  The
colorization process mucks with the brightness and contrast of the
film as well so that viewing a colorized B&W film on a B&W TV will
not be the same as watching the B&W film in its original form.  As
an example, consider the first few seasons of the Superman TV show.
They were filmed in B&W and George Reeves actually wore a brown and
yellow Superman outfit for contrast in the B&W medium.  In order to
colorize such a film, B&W "brown" would be turned to red and B&W
"yellow" would be turned to blue, trashing all the other browns and
yellows.  To avoid this problem, the constrast of the Superman outfit
would be changed.
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
We have our own ammunition -- it's filled with paint.  When we
fire it, it makes pretty pictures -- scares the hell out of people!

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 12:40:00 PDT
From:    "Wsiaki, Bill" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Trivial Nonsense & colorization

Correctly speaking, it is not appropriate to say "the" Ukraine.  In the
Ukrainian language, the country is spelled YKRAIHA with an umlaut over the
letter "I".  Transliterated into english it is spelled UKRAINA. She (the
country) is also referred to in the feminine sense.

On the topic of colorization of old documentary films, I have seen some old
German documentaries that were shot in color but it is rare.  Whether in
photography or motion pictures, all artistic values aside, it was a cheaper,
faster and easier process (at the time) to work in B & W.  Just imagine if
camcorders would have been as plentiful then as they are now.

Bill Wsiaki

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 14:19:02 -0400
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Trivial Nonsense & colorization

Bill W...
        Though, as you say, most WW2 German combat movies were shot in b&w,
there were also quite a number of combat movies shot with COLOR film.
        For some reason or other, the SS used color in many of their films,
and also a good deal of SS still photos were taken with color negatives.
        On the Allied side, the United States Marine Corps shot quite a
number of combat footage on color movie film.
        A very rare example of British wartime movie filmed in color was
taken by an individual senior RAF officer with his personal 16mm movie
camera.  His footage turned up a few years ago, and was processed into a
very interesting -- and very rare -- color documentary about Avro Lancaster
bombers in combat.
Regards -- Sidney Allinson.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 14:32:57 -0500
From:    "W.C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN RE: Colorization and loss of historic film

A lot of what we are talking about here is ethics vs. rights.

I am of mixed feelings on this.  I *wish* that the owners of these
films would keep them intact, but I must also recognize their
*right* to do with their property what they want.

It is kinda like seeing a P-51 getting all chopped up for unlimited
racing.  While I may *wish* they would have kept it original
and preserved the appearance, I must also recognize their right
to do with it what they please.

Whether or not it is ethical to modify films is another question, but
because of the attendant preservation efforts that accompany the
colorization process, it may be a matter of being thankful for the
colorized version because the alternate is no film at all.

Quite honestly, I would hope that every film would have at least one
copy preserved intact, in the original version.

Bill
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 15:08:20 EDT
From:    Robert E George <[email-masked]>
Subject: REF: Planned Invasdion of Japan?

     Eddy Bauer's "Illustrated Encyclopedia of the Second World War",
published by Funk & Wagnalls in the late 1980's, has a map of the
planned invasion, including the U.S. Armies slated for use.

                              Rob George
                              [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 15:20:19 -0400
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN RE: Colorization and loss of historic film

I have a half-hour video in color, produced by the US 8th Air Force
around 1944.
The subject is the work of air-gunners ("aerial-gunners"in USAAF). It
was directed by Capt Clark Gable, at the express request of the airforce,
with the intention of helping increase recruitment for the hazardous
job of air-gunners.
The movie was originally filmed in color, with 16mm Kodak negative stock.
Bears up nicely in video form, and makes an excellent historical record
now of what it was like manning a gun-turret on Flying Fortresses in WW2.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 17:09:31 -0400
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Invasion of Japan (was:Politics & the Smithsonian)

Daniel, I believe that the U.S. estimated 1,000,000 American casualties
if they had to invade Japan, not 100,000 as you had suggested. One
million may seem outrageous, but I think that the Americans had about 100,000
casualties in the Battle of the Bulge alone, just to put things in
perspective. Cheers,
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 17:48:29 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN RE: Colorization and loss of historic film

In my humble opinion, what we are talking about here is MONEY.

As long as colorization makes money, somebody will do it.

Period.

As one who is not a professional historian, but a *very* serious
student of history, this is one lesson I have learned very well.

George Bauer
U.S.A.:  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 21:44:33 -0500
From:    Jon Stevens <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: USMC color films

On Tue, 5 Jul 1994, Sidney Allinson wrote:

>         On the Allied side, the United States Marine Corps shot quite a
> number of combat footage on color movie film.

I have just viewed two examples of this, "To the Shores of Iwo Jima" and
"With the Marines of Tarawa" that is part of the first volume of a video
series called "The Colors of War".  The color footage of Tarawa is
excellent.  It won an academy award in 1944.

Jon Stevens -- [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 Jul 1994 22:51:46 -0400
From:    "Arthur D. Venzin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Signoff WWii-l

sorry to have to leave but going on vacation.  see you all in a week or 2

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 4 Jul 1994 to 5 Jul 1994
***********************************************