Subject: WWII-L Digest - 11 Jul 1994 to 12 Jul 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 1994 00:01:48 -0400

There are 28 messages totalling 1166 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. [INF] USAAF 12 JUL 44
  2. INF: 50 Years Ago - 12-JUL-1944
  3. GEN: TRUMAN AND THE ATOM BOMB
  4. Beginning of the Age of Military Aviation
  5. Cousteau show (2)
  6. Truman/Atom Bomb (12)
  7. GEN: JAPANESE AND GERMANS VIEWS OF WWII (2)
  8. More on: the Nagasaki bomb (3)
  9. Malaria Remedy (2)
 10. Media: CBS Reports
 11. ADMIN: Truman/Atom Bomb
 12. 2nd A-bomb decision

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 06:41:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 12 JUL 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
WEDNESDAY, 12 JULY 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  Spitfire, Vickers Supermarine

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 44 P-40s support ground forces in
the Myitkyina area; 28 P-51s and P-47s hit bridge and other targets in Hopin,
bomb a Maingna pagoda, and hit the Alanbo and Tagwin areas; and 13 B-25s bomb
bridges at Mongyin and hit targets of opportunity in the Myitkyina area. In
India, the 9th Combat Cargo Squadron, 3d Combat Cargo Group, moves from
Sylhet to Moran with C-47s.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 60+ P-40s hit the towns of Liling
and Yuhsien, river shipping at Hengyang, troop concentrations at Leiyang and
near Yuhsien, the airfield at Siangtan, and fuel dumps NW of Changsha; 34
P-51s bomb Tsingyun and pound Japanese concentrations at Lienchiangkou; 11
P-40s bomb railroad yards at Yuncheng and hit a radio station N of Tungkuan
with rocket fire; 12 B-25s bomb Tengchung and 15 P-40s bomb and strafe
storage areas, villages, troop areas, and general targets of opportunity in
the Lungling and Mangshih areas.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 468: 131 B-24s, escorted
by by 144 Royal Air Force (RAF) Spitfires, are dispatched to bomb 10 CROSSBOW
(V-weapon) sites in the Rouen area but abort because of a thick blanket of
low cloud over the target area; no losses.
  Mission 469: 1,271 bombers and 803 fighters are dispatched to bomb Munich,
Germany; 1,124 bombers bomb the city of Munich, 16 hit Enstingen and 10 hit
targets of opportunity; 24 bombers are lost, 4 are damaged beyond repair and
297 are damaged; 2 airmen are KIA, 7 WIA and 216 MIA. Escort is provided by
717 P-38s, P-47s and P-51s; 1 P-38 is damaged beyond repair (pilot is WIA).
  Mission 470: During the night, 6 of 6 B-17s drop leaflets in France.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, 300+ A-20s and B-26s fly
morning and afternoon missions against fuel dumps at Foret d'Andaine and
Foret d'Ecouves, military concentrations at Foret de Cinglais, rail bridges
at Merey, Cinq Mars-la-Pile, Saumur, Nantes, and Nogent-le-Roi, and other
rail and road targets; fighters furnish escort, cover the battle area, and
fly armed reconnaissance over wide areas, attacking rail lines S and W of
Rambouillet, bridges and fuel dump in the Nantes vicinity, trains and
military transport at Vitry-le-Francois, and grounded aircraft S of
Chateaubriant, bridges at Craon, Le Mans, Pontorson, Mayenne, S of Rennes, N
of Angers, and Tours, rail traffic S of Fougeres, and infantry and artillery
positions near Periers.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 420+ B-24s attack targets in SE
France, scoring numerous hits on Nimes and Miramas marshalling yards and
cutting rail lines at the Theoule-sur-Mer bridge and Var River bridge in
Provence; around 50 enemy fighters oppose the missions; the bombers and
escorting fighters claim 14 shot down; 7 AAF aircraft are lost.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, A-20s bomb scattered
motor transport in the Florence-Leghorn area during the night of 11/12 Jul;
medium bombers begin Operation MALLORY MAJOR against road and rail bridges
over the Po River during the day; A-20s continue attacking ammunition
supplies; fighter-bombers hit barges and small boats on the Arno River and
attack roads, ammunition dumps, gun positions, tracks, vehicles, and a number
of other targets in that general area N of the battleline; HQ 86th Fighter
Group and the 525th and 527th Fighter Squadrons move from Orbetello to
Poretta, Corsica with P-47s; and the 86th Bombardment Squadron (Light), 47th
Bombardment Group (Light), moves from Ombrone Airfield to Poretta, Corsica
with A-20s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): During the night of 11/12 Jul
B-24s stage through Eniwetok Atoll to bomb Truk Atoll; during the day B-24s
hit Truk Atoll again. P-47s on Saipan Island continue to hit Tinian Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: In New Guinea,
B-24s hit Manokwari Airfield; weather curtails further operations in the
Geelvink Bay area; A-20s, B-25s, and fighter-bombers again hit troop
concentrations and barges in the Wewak area; the 386th Bombardment Squadron
(Light), 312th Bombardment Group (Light), moves from Nadzab to Hollandia with
A-20s; and the 432d Fighter Squadron, 475th Fighter Group, moves from
Hollandia to Biak Island with P-38s. Smaller strikes by B-24s and B-25s are
flown against the airfield at Laha on Amboina Island, Celebes Islands; Dili
on Timor Island; and on Koer Island, New Guinea. B-24s pound Yap Island.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 07:45:32 -0500
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 12-JUL-1944

On 12-JUL-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The US VIII Corps is making very good progress southwards
     towards the Ay and Seves rivers. The VII is running into difficulty
     however, along the Carentan-Periers road. The XIX Corps push towards St
     Lo continues at a slower pace because the 39th Division is facing strong
     resistance in the Pont-Hebert sector. The 116th Regiment of the 29th
     Division is also facing strong resistance west of Pont-Hebert. The
     Americans are within two miles of St Lo. The 101st Airborne is moved back
     to England for rest and training of new recruits.

Eastern Front - The Russian offensive is growing stronger in scale and
     intensity. The 2nd Baltic Front launches a series of attacks south of
     Lake Peipus, between Nevel and Ostrov and capture Idrica.

Italian Front - The US IV Corps takes Castiglioncello. The 34th Division runs
     into strong resistance, while the 88th Division takes Laiatico, assisted
     by strong artillery fire. A major series of Allied air attacks against
     the Po bridges begin (operation Mallory Major).

New Guinea - In the Aitape sector, the Americans regroup after withdrawing
     from the Driniumor river area.

Burma/China - The Americans and Chinese launch an attack in force against
     Myitkyina but are repulsed. They are assisted in their attack by strong
     air support, but some of the aircraft bomb their own troops through a
     communication error. On the Salween river front, the Japanese garrison at
     Sung Shan continue to hold against attacks by two Chinese divisions. The
     Chinese suspend their offensive against the garrison.

The Homefront
-------------
Population Shifts - The Census Bureau reports a population increase from
     131,699,275 in 1940 to 133,942,410 in 1943. Twenty-five states and the
     District of Columbia show gains in population. Western and southern
     states gained 4,000,000; while the northeast and north-central areas lost
     2,000,000 due to wartime migrations.

Army Nurses Get Officer Rank - President Roosevelt has issed an executive
     order providing for the commissioning of all Army nurses as actual Army
     officers, giving them the full authority of their officer rank.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 14:28:54 +0200
From:    John Ausland <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN: TRUMAN AND THE ATOM BOMB

  Oslo, July 12.
  FOR DAN COX
  Many thanks for the upload of the excerpt from the Truman book.  While many of
us will accept his explanation of why he authorized the bombing of Hiroshima and
Nagasaki, inevitably some will not, and the debate will go on.
  I would expect this discussion to reach a peak next year on the anniversary of
the dropping of the bomb on Hiroshima.
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 08:28:11 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Beginning of the Age of Military Aviation

How about observation balloons in the Civil War?

How about the Russo-Japanese war?

How about when Hap Arnold got his driver's license on a Wright Flyer?
(Was he #1?)

            - Dan      <[email-masked]>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 08:35:59 -0500
From:    "W.C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Cousteau show

For those interested:

This weeks presentation of COUSTEAU'S REDISCOVERY OF THE WORLD has
him diving on the Japanese ships, visiting a sunken, intact B-17
and visiting Yammamoto's crash site in and around Papua, New Guniea.

There is some good footage of the sunken plane.

It airs again Saturday afternoon.  Check your listings.

Bill
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 08:41:43 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Truman/Atom Bomb

> Yesterday I UNINTENTIONALY posted a message to this list in the MIME
> form.  Please accept my apology for any inconvenience this may have caused.

Actually, I kind of enjoyed it :-)

(Truman talking here:)

> I know the world will never forget that the first bomb was dropped on
> Hiroshima on August 5, at 7:15 P.M. Washington time,

What the world remembers is that it was dropped on August 6, Hiroshima
time, killing 130,000 and destroying 90 percent of the city.

 and the second on
> Nagasaki on August 9.  One more plea for surrender had been made to the
> Japanese on July 29, and was rejected immediately.  Then I gave the final
> order, saying I had no qualms "if millions of lives could be saved."  I meant
> both American and Japanese lives.
>
> The Japanese surrendered five days after the bomb was dropped on
> Nagasaki, and a number of major Japanese military men and diplomats later
> confirmed publicly that there would have been no quick surrender without it.

Truman is making a clever segue from the Hiroshima bomb to the Nagasaki
bomb. 72 hours separated the two explosions, and the Japanese government
simply did not yet know what had happened at Hiroshima when the Nagasaki
bomb exploded. I think there is a special place in hell for Harry Truman,
and that he wears a placard saying: "I destroyed Nagasaki *for nothing*."

            - Dan      <[email-masked]>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 09:23:07 -0500
From:    "W.C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Cousteau show

Mea culpa, folks....

The Cousteau's Rediscovery of the World airs on TBS.  It was on last
nite at midnite (after the eminently spectacular MOONSHOT special of
which Part II airs Wednesday) and the next showing I could find was
listed for Saturday afternoon, at 4:00 p.m. EDT as I recall.

Bill
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 09:37:24 -0500
From:    "W.C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Truman/Atom Bomb

x
>Truman is making a clever segue from the Hiroshima bomb to the Nagasaki
>bomb. 72 hours separated the two explosions, and the Japanese government
>simply did not yet know what had happened at Hiroshima when the Nagasaki
>bomb exploded. I think there is a special place in hell for Harry Truman,
>and that he wears a placard saying: "I destroyed Nagasaki *for nothing*."

>            - Dan      <[email-masked]>

Or a special place in heaven where he wears a placard saying "I saved
countless American lives".  You make the statement that the Japanese
government did not know what had happened.  Can you substantiate this
or is it simply speculation?  How long would it take a recon plane to fly
from Tokyo to Hiroshima?  Surely not 72 hours.

Further, you seem to imply that the
Japanese surrender would be a given if they were aware of the first
bomb (assuming they weren't).  Again, can you substantiate this with
some citations?

Please share with us the source of this information.

Bill
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 22:19:22 +0200
From:    John Ausland <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN: JAPANESE AND GERMANS VIEWS OF WWII

  Oslo, July 12, 1994

  Michiko Kakutani, who is on the staff of The New York Times, is less
enthusiastic about Ian Buruma's THE WAGES OF GUILT: MEMORIES OF WAR IN GERMANY
AND JAPAN than Gordon Craig was.  (I posted a message about Craig's review
yesterday.)

  Kakutani's review appeared in today's International Herald Tribune but
appeared earlier in The New York Times.  His main complaint is that Buruma is
too easy on the Germans.

  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

  PS  I guess I will have to read the book.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 10:49:17 -0400
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Truman/Atom Bomb

>Truman is making a clever segue from the Hiroshima bomb to the Nagasaki
>bomb. 72 hours separated the two explosions, and the Japanese government
>simply did not yet know what had happened at Hiroshima when the Nagasaki
>bomb exploded. I think there is a special place in hell for Harry Truman,
>and that he wears a placard saying: "I destroyed Nagasaki *for nothing*."
>

Hmmmmmm  If all you have to do to have a special place in hell is to order
use of a powerful weapon against a all-but-beaten enemy that has YET to
capitulate,
then hell is a very crowded place indeed (and the store will be running low
on placards too).

I personally would not want to have to explain to an American mother why
her son died in some action because we wanted to offer the Japanese
government an extra couple of days to recieve news of Hiroshima and
formulate their next option.  Nor would I want to be the American taking
the risk while our government was being benevolent and humane.  Just my
opinion.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka                                         National Warplane Museum
Cornell University                                 Geneseo, New York
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 10:56:04 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: More on: the Nagasaki bomb

Some useful references on the last months of Imperial Japan:

Hata & Izawa: JAPANESE NAVAL ACES & FIGHTER UNITS. Annapolis:
Naval Institute Press, 1989.

Lester Brooks: BEHIND JAPAN'S SURRENDER.  McGraw-Hill, 1968.

Pacific War Research Society: JAPAN'S LONGEST DAY. Tokyo:
Kodansha, 1968. (Originally NIHON NO ICHIBAN NAGAI HI; Bungei
Shunju, 1965)

William Craig: THE FALL OF JAPAN.  Dial, 1967

Keith Wheeler: BOMBERS OVER JAPAN. Alexandria: Time-Life Books,
1982.

Alvin Cook: THE B-29 CAMPAIGN AGAINST JAPAN: THE JAPANESE
DIMENSION. Privately printed, 1982.

Yohji Watanabe: PICTORIAL HISTORY OF AIR WAR OVER JAPAN. Tokyo:
Japanese Army Air Force/Hara Shobo Co., 1970.

            - Dan      <[email-masked]>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 10:41:15 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Truman/Atom Bomb

> countless American lives".  You make the statement that the Japanese
> government did not know what had happened.  Can you substantiate this
> or is it simply speculation?  How long would it take a recon plane to fly
> from Tokyo to Hiroshima?  Surely not 72 hours.

Actually, they sent a team on the train when nobody answered the phone.
Needless to say, the team had a bit of trouble at the point where the
tracks were melted. They didn't report back until after the Nagasaki bomb
was dropped. See any one of several books on this topic, notably *Japan's
Longest Week*, I believe it was called.

> Further, you seem to imply that the
> Japanese surrender would be a given if they were aware of the first
> bomb (assuming they weren't).  Again, can you substantiate this with
> some citations?

How many cities have to be fricasseed? Are you saying that if 130,000
dead at Hiroshima wouldn't prompt a surrender, then a much smaller number
dead at Nagasaki (wasn't it more like 60,000) would have? Get serious!

Actually, the Japanese were trying like hell to surrrender (and keep the
emperor and call it something else, of course, both of which we
ultimately allowed them to do). Unfortunately they chose the Soviet Union
as their go-between, and guess what? The messages got delayed :-)

The Hiroshima bomb was a justifiable military decision given the
circumstances of the time. The Nagasaki bomb was a war crime.

Now everybody thinks Truman was a great man because he bought his own
stamps and carried his own bags to Union Station. For the record he:
codified the division of Europe which took 50 years to unravel, dropped
one too many atomic bombs, begged Stalin to attack Japan and thus ensure
Soviet hegemony over Manchuria and the Sakalin Islands (which Russia still
holds), got the Cold War off to a rousing start by insisting that West
Germany currency be circulated in Berlin, assured the world that the U.S.
had no military interest in Korea and thus prompted Kim to invade South
Korea, and then of course dispatched an utterly unprepared American army
to defend it. Compared to Truman, Lyndon Johnson was a military genius.

            - Dan      <[email-masked]>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 11:07:14 -0400
From:    Wendy Slader <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Truman/Atom Bomb

> >bomb exploded. I think there is a special place in hell for Harry Truman,
> >and that he wears a placard saying: "I destroyed Nagasaki *for nothing*."
>
> >            - Dan      <[email-masked]>

> Or a special place in heaven where he wears a placard saying "I saved
> countless American lives".  You make the statement that the Japanese
> government did not know what had happened.  Can you substantiate this
> or is it simply speculation?  How long would it take a recon plane to fly
> from Tokyo to Hiroshima?  Surely not 72 hours.
>
> Further, you seem to imply that the
> Japanese surrender would be a given if they were aware of the first
> bomb (assuming they weren't).  Again, can you substantiate this with
> some citations?
>
> Please share with us the source of this information.
>
> Bill
> [email-masked]
>

Perhaps he should wear one of the badges on his chest and one on his
butt.  All I know is this:  Sworn in as president at 7:09 p.m  April 12,
1945--told of bomb testing at Alamogordo at 7:30 p.m. April 12,
1945--drops bomb on August 5th 1945 not knowing from Adam what it would
REALLY do.
To me, that's kind of scary.

Wendy Slader

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 10:42:38 -0500
From:    Bill Smith <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Truman/Atom Bomb

On Tue, 12 Jul 1994, Dan Ford wrote:

> I think there is a special place in hell for Harry Truman,
> and that he wears a placard saying: "I destroyed Nagasaki *for nothing*."

And, I suppose, Curtis LeMay's reads "I firebombed Tokyo *for nothing*."
Would FDR have one also for "I allowed Dresden *for nothing*," or would
it say "I allowed Dresden for Vonnegut's royalties."

IMHO -- Touch ironic that we're nashing our teeth at the PC of the
Smithsonian attempting to make us "war criminals" and guilty of all sins.
Meanwhile in Tokyo, they seem to be upset over the Nipponese version of PC,
attempting to say they did something wrong.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 12:44:03 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: JAPANESE AND GERMANS VIEWS OF WWII

Would anyone like to have Kakutani's review (mentioned by John Ausland)
posted?

            - Dan      <[email-masked]>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 14:04:45 -0400
From:    Wendy Slader <[email-masked]>
Subject: Malaria Remedy

This is sort of a "haffassed" WWII question with a side-order of medical
research...

My uncle served under Gen. Patton and while in North Africa contracted
Malaria.  The story goes that he was given nothing to eat for weeks but
instead was gorged with pineapple juice hour after hour, day after day.
Can anyone tell me why mass quantities of pineapple juice would be given
as a remedy for malaria?   Apparently it worked--he did survive.
Just curious.  Thanks.    WS

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 14:20:08 EDT
From:    Kurt Luginbyhl <[email-masked]>
Subject: Truman/Atom Bomb

Hi,  First thanks to Dan Cox for the excerpt from Truman's writings.  There
has been a great deal of name calling and finger pointing over the SI's
exhibit of the Enola Gay.  I have not seen the exhibit and cannot speak for
the SI in regards to policy as it relates to the written word in Exhibits.
I must say that I am opposed to revisionism in historical contextand will
always oppose such activity.  As historians we cannot second guess the actions
of historical people.  We should relate, report and record the facts without
prejudice.  This has ever been the difficult thing to do.  Today even or should
I say especially the news media continues to sensationalize and manipulate the
"truth" for profit and ratings.  If only there were more people proclaiming
the necesity of historical research and its record than those trying to shout
down those performing the work.   Oh yeah,!  Death to Outcome Based Education!
:)   That ought to get y'll going!   I am reading a book published by SI Press
on The Rise of the Fighter Aircraft and I will be happy to report back... Sorry
I can't remember the author presently.    Cheers!

H. A. Kurt Luginbyhl
Scientific Computer Specialist
National Museum of Natural History
Washington D.C. 20560

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 14:42:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: More on: the Nagasaki bomb

Dan,

I must disagree with you on your comments about Harry Truman, et al.  It is
easy to sit here now 50 years later and say that the Japanese did not know
what happened to Hiroshima and they did not know until the team that went
by train arrived in the area.  I can see sending a full-fledged investigative
team by train  but if the Japanese were really concerned about the fate of
Hiroshima, why didn't they send an aircraft over the city?  They certainly
had enough gasoline to fuel Kamikaze aircraft then why not one to find out
why the phones were not being answered?  I would have done it and I think
that the Americans who were in on the planning of Nagaski would have
thought the same way.  Perhaps that was the mistake on both parts.

Another villian in the plot is the Soviet Union.  As I understand it, the
Japanese had put out peace feelers to the Soviets but Uncle Joe stalled and
never passed the information on to the West.  Perhaps we should be
condemning Uncle Joe also.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 14:23:29 -0500
From:    Michael D Wallick <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Malaria Remedy

On Tue, 12 Jul 1994, Wendy Slader wrote:

> This is sort of a "haffassed" WWII question with a side-order of medical
> research...
>
> My uncle served under Gen. Patton and while in North Africa contracted
> Malaria.  The story goes that he was given nothing to eat for weeks but
> instead was gorged with pineapple juice hour after hour, day after day.
> Can anyone tell me why mass quantities of pineapple juice would be given
> as a remedy for malaria?   Apparently it worked--he did survive.
> Just curious.  Thanks.    WS
>
My guess is to prevent dehydration and put some nutriments in the body.
Pineapple juice has vitamin C in it.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 14:27:27 -0500
From:    Michael D Wallick <[email-masked]>
Subject: Media: CBS Reports

On July 21, 1994, at 9 p.m. Eastern time, CBS will air "Hitler and
Stalin: A Legacy of Hate".  It will be hosted by Charles Kuralt and
H. Norman Schwarzkopf.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 14:43:10 EST
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Truman/Atom Bomb

Time for my 2 cents.  Its been a good many years ago, but I remember
having read a book with a title along the lines of The Collapse/Fall
of Japan.  It includes the account of an American POW who was questioned
after the Hiroshima bomb.  His Japanese captors were particularly interested
in what he might know about nuclear weapons.  This would certainly seem
to suggest that the Japanese DID know or at least suspect what had happened.
That they did not surrender immediately should earn them a special place
in Hell with collective placards reading "I let 100,000+ of my people die
*for nothing.*
************************************************
Roger (Brad) Coon            "Better to have one
[email-masked]          freedom too many,
[email-masked]    than to have one
                              too few."

Politically incorrect and proud of it.
Niquimictitoc inana Bambi.
************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 15:44:47 -0500
From:    "W.C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Truman/Atom Bomb

Dan argues:

>How many cities have to be fricasseed? Are you saying that if 130,000
>dead at Hiroshima wouldn't prompt a surrender, then a much smaller number
>dead at Nagasaki (wasn't it more like 60,000) would have? Get serious!

Let's use Ol' Dan's logic right back at him....he who can say that
Hiroshima WAS justified by military necessity but Nagasaki was not:

"How many cities have to be fricaseed?  Are you saying that if
250,000 dead/missing in a firebombed Tokyo wouldn't prompt a surrender then
a much smaller number (like 130,000 dead at Hiroshima) would have?
Get serious!"

The numbers are not the factor...the ability to destroy and make the
enemy believe in that ability is what did the trick.  There were many
who doubted that the Japanese would surrender after Nagasaki.  Was there
not a plan to drop the next bomb on Tokyo?

THere is nothing that says the Japanese would have surrendered had there
been no second bomb.  It is all speculation.  The fact of the matter is
that the second bomb DID result in unconditional surrender.  And that is
what stays in the history books.

Further, your logic is flawed in that you are trying to brand Ol' Harry
as a war criminal because he ordered the bombing without waiting to see
whether they responded to Hiroshima.  Well, if I were looking for
signs of surrender (and you have said that the Japanese were 'trying like
hell' to surrender) then the first sign I would look for was a
cessation of hostilities on their part.  Did this happen?  Not at all.
Harry's FIRST responsibility was to the American serviceman as
their commander in chief.  He would have been remiss in his duties had he
NOT done everything in his power to bring the war to a conclusion.
While I am certainly no Harry-worshipper, I think he made the best decision
based on the information available to him at the time.

No, I think you would be more accurate if you were to say that the Japanese
were 'trying like hell to jockey for favorable terms in which to cease
hostilities'.  This is not the same as surrender, and the Japanese
knew that the only offer on the table was unconditional surrender.

War ain't nice....but than again, there is that adage about living
by the sword...

Bill
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 15:45:24 -0400
From:    Peter Smith <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Truman/Atom Bomb

Dan Ford said:
>Truman is making a clever segue from the Hiroshima bomb to the Nagasaki
>bomb. 72 hours separated the two explosions, and the Japanese government
>simply did not yet know what had happened at Hiroshima when the Nagasaki
>bomb exploded.

Hindsight is wonderful.  Neither Truman nor anyone else could predict how
quickly the news of Hirshima would be assimilated in Tokyo.  Likewise, it
was most unclear how the various cliques would react to the news and which
would prevail.

> ... I think there is a special place in hell for Harry Truman,
>and that he wears a placard saying: "I destroyed Nagasaki *for nothing*."

Wherever he is, his placard most likely reads: "I wanted to be damned sure
the war ended right away."
--
Peter Smith -- Data General Corp., Westboro, MA
[email-masked] (preferred) or [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 16:40:43 -0400
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: ADMIN: Truman/Atom Bomb

        This is just a reminder to keep things scholarly and professional.
Talking about pinning badges on a deceased President's spiritual butt is
not my idea of either.  (Unless, of course, a citation can be provided
from primary sources! :-)
--
Joe Barone, WWII-L owner
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 16:55:02 -0400
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Truman/Atom Bomb

I grabbed this off of Usenet last year.  It seemed pertinent so I repost
portions of it (the other portions will follow) without the author's
permission.  (Even the Subject line is similar!)

 Newsgroups: soc.history
 From: [email-masked] (Michael Goldman )
 Subject: Truman and the A-Bomb
 Organization: Acuson; Mountain View, California
 Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1993 14:40:51 GMT

[email-masked] (Tim Mohler) writes:
>As far as I know, there is nothing that directly says that
>Truman decided to drop the bomb for other purposes, and it
>is certain that ending the war quickly factored into his
>decision, but Secretary of War Henry Stimson, along with others,
>mentions that

>(a) the Japanese had already sent out surrender feelers

>(b) Truman felt he needed a bargaining chip with the Russians
>after the war

>(c) Truman wanted to make sure that Russia's entry into the war
>did not coincide with Japanese surrender, thus preserving
>America's triumph for America.

        ------------------

        This gets debated endlessly in s.c.japan.  I repost some of the
dialogue:

  From "Japan's Imperial Conspiracy" by David Bergamini:

  (page 61-64 - The decision to use the Atomic bomb)

  "Stimson..declared the purpose of the meeting:

        Our great task is to bring this war to a prompt and
        successful conclusion.  We may assume that our new
        weapon puts in our hands overwhelming power.  It is
        our obligation to use this power with the best wisdom
        we can command..."

  ...At lunch Arthur Compton suggested that it might be most humane to hold
  a demonstration of the bomb for the Japanese before using it on a target.
  War Secretary Stimson enthusiastically agreed.  But over dessert the idea
  foundered in a sea of difficulties...

  "The Interim Committee, including all the scientists present finally voted
  against demonstration and for military use of the bomb.  At the same time
  the scientists were asked by Stimson to consider the matter further and
  'prepare a report as to whether we could devise any kind of demonstration
  that would seem likely to bring the war to an end without using the bomb
  against a live target.'  The scientists' answer was delivered on June 16.
  It said, in a sentence that Stimson underlined in his own copy, 'We can
  propose no technical demonstration likely to bring an end to the war; we
  see no acceptable alternative to direct military use.'

  [several paragrahs omitted]

  "...Edward Teller...has since asserted: 'I was positive then, and I am
  positive now, that we made a mistake dropping the bomb without a previous
  bloodless demonstration.  We could have used the bomb to end the war
  without bloodshed by exploding it high over Tokyo at night without prior
  warning.  If it had been exploded at an altitude of 20,000 feet, instead
  of the low altitude of 2,000 feet...there would have been a minimum loss
  of life, if any, and hardly any damage to property, but there would have
  been tremendous sound and light effects.  We could then have said to the
  Japanese leaders: 'This was an atomic bomb.  One of them can destroy a
  city.  Surrender or be destroyed!' '

  "...The fact is, however, that the suggestion was never put forward in
  government circles.

  "...Up to the last minute [before Potsdam] Truman watched Japan.  Through
  radio monitoring and code breaking he had access to all messages which
  passed between Tokyo and Japanese embassies in neutral countries...He cannot
  have found in it much hope that Japan was about to accept unconditional
  surrender because the actual deliberations in Tokyo at that time were a
  study in procrastination and bluff. [Then follow several pages describing
  the extremely accurate predictions of the war's course that were made by
  the Japanese Army and Navy beginning 6 months before Pearl Harbor and
  repeated during the war.  They all concluded that total defeat was
  inevitable.]

  (page 1093 -  Suicidal Japanese Resistance)

  "...After the U.S. landings along Luzon's Lingayen Gulf, on January 9,
  MacArthur's troops moved along Luzon's Lingayen Gulf, on February 3.
  Yamashita had pulled back the bulk of his army into defensive positions
  in the mountains around Baguio.  He had planned to give up the Manila
  area without a fight and so spare its million-odd Filipinos from the
  hardships of seige, bombardment and street fighting.

  "Hirohito's Imperial General Headquarters had other ideas.  At the
  last minute, over Yamashita's objections, Tokyo Headquarters sent
  into Manila a naval landing party of some 15,000 sailors and marines
  under a Rear Admiral Iwabuchi Sanji, a former imperial aide-de-camp.
  Together with 4,000 to 5,000 soldiers, whom Yamashita had left in the
  city to demolish Army stores and munitions dumps, Iwabuchi and his men
  contested the city street by street, house by house, and sewer by sewer.
  A month later when the last sailor had been blasted from his hole, the
  finest sections of Manila had been turned to rubble.

  "Iwabuchi made his last stand in Intramuros, the old Spanish walled town
  in the south of the city.  Having themselves decided to die, Iwabuchi's
  men showed no mercy to the Filipino civilians whom they had entrapped with
  them.  They raped the women and machine-gunned the men.  When the battle
  was done, 1,000 Americans had died, 16,000 Japanese, and 100,000 Filipinos.

  (page 72 - 79 - Japanese delay surrender tactics)

  "Lord Privy Seal Kido, as chief advisor to the Throne, had assumed the
  dread responsibility of deciding when the moment was ripe for the
  imperial decision... It would be disastrous to declare for peace too
  early...The nation must be reduced to war-weariness.  The soldiers must
  sate their sense of honor.  If possible, the enemy must begin to feel
  shame and pity.

  "The B-29's came almost nightly...While Kido waited for the perfect
  moment, 200,000 Japanese died."

  "...Iwo Jima had fallen.  It was the first island to be lost where
  Japanese fishermen had lived for centuries.  With Iwo had perished
  20,000 soldiers... All those 20,000 men had vowed to die and take as
  many Americans with them as possible.  They had had eight months to
  dig tunnels and develop the natural caves of the rocky island.  And
  in the end they had killed less than 7,000 Americans and held out for
  less than five weeks."

  "[After Hitler's suicide Hirihito and Kido meet to discuss the situation]
  ...Now that the allies had both hands free to strangle Japan...
  unconditional surrender became inevitable.  But Japan must appear to be
  an irrational nation.  Otherwise there would be no need for the Emperor
  to intervene and speak with the Voice of the Crane. [Thereby seeming to be
  a savior of the nation rather than its destroyer.]  More than ever,
  therefore, Japan must show that she was ready to hold out insanely.

  "Two days later an operational dispatch...came from Commander Fujimura
  Yoshiro...head of the Navy's peace-seeking mission in Switzerland...He
  proudly reported that Allen Dulles, the head of the O.S.S [pre-cursor
  to the CIA] in Europe, had offered his services in case Japan should wish
  to arrange a termination of hostilities.  Fujimura...described the havoc
  the Nazi diehards had brought to Germany.  He enumerated the Allied
  forces which were being diverted from Europe to the Pacific Theater.  He
  relayed intelligence that Russia would soon join in the war against Japan.
  He described the part which Allen Dulles had played in bringing peace to
  northern Italy and preserving it from destruction.

  "...In a week during which 193 kamikaze pilots were hurling themselves
  to death at Okinawa, the chief and vice chief of the Navy General Staff
  felt that they could not shoulder the responsibility for refusing Dulles's
  mediation.  Hirohito accepted their resignations on May 25 and replaced them
  a few days later with admirals tough enough to ignore further cables from
  Switzerland.

  "[On June 8, at a meeting of the Cabinet and Emperor]...a declaration
  was read aloud and passed unanimously.  It called on the nation to fight
  to the last of its 70 million men, women, and children...As Hirohito later
  explained to one of his chamberlains: 'A concealed clause..was a peace
  clause'

  "As soon as the meeting had adjourned imperial advisor Kido drafted a
  written plan for implementing the peace resolution.  His idea was that
  the United States could be made to concede terms out of fear that,
  otherwise, Japan would give China to Russia.

  (page 1102 - 1103 - The last days)

  "Sharpened staves of bamboo were handed out as spears to the villagers
  along likely invasion beaches in southern Japan.  And then the US B-29's
  proceeded to drop the sophisticated atomic bomb.

  "Hirohito had been expecting to negotiate a surrender in September or
  October after the loss of perhaps another million of his loyal subjects.
  The bomb, as he later told MacArthur, gave Japan an excuse to surrender
  earlier.  That is, it forced Hirohito to 'bear the unbearable' humiliation
  of surrender immediately.

  "...Again on the morning of August 14, when his ministers had debated
  the allied reply to Japan's surrender note for two days, he cut off
  their deliberation and ordered them to accept the U.S. terms without
  further ado."

--- end of quote ---

I'll interject something about MY [Mike Goldman's, not Joe Barone's]
family then (my in-laws, to be
exact). My grandmother-in-law was a school teacher in Kochi, Japan. In
1945, the military started military training of her students (2nd, 3rd,
and 4th graders). They were given bamboo spears and taught to charge
American strongholds, and they were assured that the army would be
right behind them and that the emporer himself would laud their
sacrifice. I've heard similar stories from a couple of my Japanese
professors as well. It seems that the military was fully prepared to
sacrifice any Japanese life, as they did in Okinawa. Note that Hirohito
never visited Okinawa after the war because it was not felt that his
safety could have been guaranteed, in light of what the JAPANESE army
had done, and forced upon, the people.

One of my best friend's father was at Hiroshima on the day of the
bombing. The city had been warned that the Americans were going to
"destroy the city" (the US had been dropping propaganda leaflets there,
warning of impending destruction). The city, to show it wasn't cowed,
scheduled a sort of "roof repair" day for the school children, and as a
consequence, my friend's father was up on the roof when the bomb was
detonated. He survived that (obviously) and emmigrated to the US. He
died later of leukemia, but the feeling he left with his children was
that Hiroshima was unavoidable due to the Japanese government's actions
and recalcitrance. I believe the exact word used was "justified".

--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
You're a good man, Mulligan.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 17:04:41 -0400
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: More on: the Nagasaki bomb

mc killop <[email-masked]> writes:
> Another villian in the plot is the Soviet Union.  As I understand it, the
> Japanese had put out peace feelers to the Soviets but Uncle Joe stalled and
> never passed the information on to the West.  Perhaps we should be
> condemning Uncle Joe also.

The remaining portion of Mike Goldman's article elaborates on this topic:

  From "Japan's Imperial Conspiracy" by David Bergamini:

        pp 80-82:  "On June 29 [1945], the Japanese
        foreign ministry finally made its first written proposal to the
        USSR.  Through an intermediary, [Hirota Koki, a former prime
        and foreign minister], Foreign Minister Togo offered Soviet
        Ambassador Malik a neutral Manchuria, no more special Japanese
        fishing privileges, favorable consideration of other Russian
        requests - this pittance in exchange for a pledge by Russia
        that she would refrain from joining in the war against Japan.
        No mention was made of Japan surrendering.  On the contrary the
        Japanese emissary suggested that perhaps the USSR would like to
        throw in some oil and aviation gas in order to weaken the
        common enemy, the United States.  Soviet Ambassador Malik
        fidgeted...  stifled a yawn and promised routinely to study the
        proposal.  For the next two weeks, he put off increasingly
        desperate Japanese representations.  He was sick, he said, with
        the Japanese flu.

        "[On July 4] Tokyo leaders were discussing fresh intelligence
        from Switzerland....Lieutenant General Okamoto the head of the
        Army peace mission there had sounded out Allen Dulles, the
        chief of the OSS in Europe, as to what terms ... the US would
        give Japan.  Dulles had replied that 'if Japan surrenders' it
        was the 'understanding' of the United States that the Allies
        would allow the Emperor system of government to continue.  It
        was the one condition which Japanese leaders months earlier had
        agreed to settle for if worst came to worst.  But no one knew
        how much trust to put in it.  Japanese spy agencies had offered
        them routinely in China without any intention of honoring
        them....

        "Analysis of foreign broadcasts had brought it home to Hirohito
        that Allied leaders at their scheduled Potsdam meeting in
        Mid-July were about to decide the fate of the Orient.  To save
        American lives, Truman might invite Russian and even China to
        contribute troops for the assault on Japan.  The thought of a
        Russian invasion was terrifying enough, but the thought of a
        Chinese revenge raised cold sweats.  Hirohito decided to go
        over the head of 'sick' ambassador Malik in Tokyo and begin
        direct conversations with Molotov in Moscow."

        Hiohito then summoned Prime Minister Suzuki (July 7) and Prince
        Konoye (July 12).  Prince Konoye then went to Foreign Minister
        Togo who immediately cabled Ambassador Sato in Moscow "SEE
        MOLOTOV BEFORE HIS DEPARTURE FOR POTSDAM...CONVEY HIS MAJESTY'S
        STRONG DESIRE TO SECURE A TERMINATION OF THE
        WAR...UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER IS THE ONLY OBSTACLE TO PEACE..."

        "That night at 11:25 Ambassador Sato cabled back:  THERE IS NO
        CHANCE OF WINNING THE SOVIET UNION TO OUR SIDE AND OF OBTAINING
        HER SUPPORT ON THE BASIS SET FORTH IN YOUR CABLES...JAPAN IS
        DEFEATED...WE MUST FACE THIS FACT AND ACT ACCORDINGLY...

        "Sato's cable crossed a second cable from...Togo...PLEASE
        ARRANGE IMMEDIATELY TO OBTAIN AN ENTRY PERMIT FOR PRINCE KONOYE
        AND HIS PARTY..HAVE A SOVIET PLANE MEET THEM [in Manchuria].
        [Konoye was to arrange the details of surrender].

        "...Sato cabled home on July 13 that Molotov 'could not find
        time to see me' [so Sato saw a subordinate instead, begging for
        a quick reply.]

        "On July 19 ... Sato...received an ordinary postal letter from
        a member of Molotov's staff, stating that the Japanese
        proposals were, as yet, too vague to warrant an answer.  Sato
        relayed this to Tokyo with an impassioned plea for a realistic
        surrender note.  Foreign minister Togo consulted with Hirohito
        and felt able to give Sato little clarification.  It was Prince
        Konoye's mission he cabled, to bring specific surrender
        proposals to Moscow and to arrange a peace short of
        unconditional surrender."

        All of these cables were intercepted, decoded, and read by the
        US agents and translations were given to US Secretary of State
        Byrnes.  While revealing that Japan was desperate to surrender,
        it did not reveal the terms under which she was seeking peace.

        "...Byrnes was advised, accordingly, that the Togo-Sato cables
        appeared to be an attempt on the part of the Japanese military
        to make a deal with Russia and thereby attach conditions to
        surrender conditions which might enable the military clique to
        evade punishment and stay in power"

        ---

        In an interview on TV Hirohito stated that dropping the
        bomb was a military necessity.  That is not now and was not
        then a popular view in Japan.

        ---

        This subject has been studied to death.  The idea that
        Truman dropped the bomb for any other reason than
        military necessity is one of those fringe ideas that
        rely on innuendo and supposition.

        - Michael Goldman
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
A Sherman can give you a very nice edge.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 17:15:40 EDT
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 2nd A-bomb decision

Excerpted from William Craig's "The Fall of Japan" (LOC 67-10704):

On the afternoon of 8 August, Chuck Sweeney had flown "The Great
Artiste" (my note: Sweeney's B-29; accompanied "Enola Gay" to
Hiroshima to collect data; flown by Fred Bock, it later went to
Nagasaki in same function) over the Pacifica and dropped another
dummy bomb into the sea.  This one contained all of the parts of
the Fat Man except the plutonium.  All the fuses, switches, and
Detonators worked perfectly.  Upuntil that moment, all of the
varied components needed to trigger the bomb in flight had not been
assembled together inside the casing...(deleted for brevity)...
He knew that the Fat Man would be dropped on Japan within 24 hours.

When "The Great Artiste" got back to Tinian, Crew 15 was told that
it would fly again the next morning. ****Since weather reports
from Japan indicated unsettled conditions would prevail for five
days after the ninth of August, the Fat Man would leave within
hours.****  (Emphasis mine)

Admiral Purnell and General Groves had often discussed the importance
of putting a second bomb on target as quickly as possible after the
first in order to impress the Japanese with the fact that the
United States was actually in production of the weapon, that the
future held the prospect of more and more atomic warfare.  It was
Purnell who had initially proposed that it would take two bombs to
end the war.  Groves concurred in that belief.  Harry Truman
evidently did, too.  He ordered atomic bombs dropped on "the two
cities named on the way back from Potsdam."  Unless expressly
countermanded by radio from Washington, field commanders on Tinian
could proceed accordingly.  Orders for the second atomic mission
were cut.

End quote

Condensed from the same book, but not direct quotes:

An eyewitness account of the bombing of Hiroshima had reached Tokyo
by 1700 local time on 6 August.

On the evening of 8 August, Secret Police in Osaka were questioning
and torturing American Lt. Marcus McDilla, a P-51 pilot shot down
that day while strafing.  The interrogators demanded that he tell
them what he knew of the atomic bomb dropped two days before on
Hiroshima.  McDilla, of course, knew nothing.  When threatened with
beheading, he began making up details on the bomb, providing
specious information on theory of operation and bomb dimensions.
Asked for further plans for the weapon, he told them that he had
heard that the next one would be dropped on Tokyo in a few days.
This information was quickly passed on to Tokyo.

Dennis E. Sparks
[email-masked]
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 Jul 1994 18:30:53 -0400
From:    Wendy Slader <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Truman/Atom Bomb

On Tue, 12 Jul 1994, W.C. (RUSTY) DIVENS wrote:

> The numbers are not the factor...the ability to destroy and make the
> enemy believe in that ability is what did the trick.  There were many
> who doubted that the Japanese would surrender after Nagasaki.  Was there
> not a plan to drop the next bomb on Tokyo?

    (...i hope i don't sound like a moron...i am a greenhorn...)
Anyway:

    Too bad that while they were testing the bomb in New Mexico they
couldn't have filmed a "home movie" and shipped it on over to the emperor
to "catch him up on current events."  Maybe that would have saved
countless lives on both sides...

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 11 Jul 1994 to 12 Jul 1994
*************************************************