Subject: WWII-L Digest - 24 Jul 1994 to 25 Jul 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 00:01:17 -0400

There are 33 messages totalling 1198 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. INF: USN Chronology 07-25-94
  2. Smithsonian and A Bomb (4)
  3. A-bomb, was: Re: PC at the Smithsonian (2)
  4. Russian capture of Berlin
  5. Richard Bong
  6. 50TH: JULY 20 PLOT
  7. USS Amberjack (3)
  8. DOC: Katyn Massacre (2)
  9. Truman/Atom Bomb
 10. Invasion of Japan (was:Politics & the Smithsonian) (2)
 11. GEN  LTCOL Tsuji Masanobu
 12. ARC: GREEN BOOKS
 13. 50TH: AN INFANTRY COMPANY IN ACTION
 14. 50TH: OPERATION COBRA PLANNING
 15. Pacific-inferior equipment?
 16. INF: 50 Years Ago - 26-JUL-1944
 17. [INF] USAAF 20 JUN 44
 18. Moe Berg, Baseball Player
 19. Re[2]: Pacific-inferior equipment?
 20. GEN or TRV: "Instinct Ability"?
 21. INF: Japanese mindset
 22. GEN LTCOL Tsuji Masanobu
 23. Invasion USA, perception & reality
 24. [INF] USAAF 26 JUL 44
 25. GEN: VJ Day

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 25 Jul 1994 01:18:33 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 07-25-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
07/25 Tue. Aircraft of fast carrier task force: (Vice Adm. M. A.
Mitscher)
           attack enemy positions in the western Caroline Islands of
Yap,
           Ulithi, Fais, Ngulu, Sorol, and Palau; strikes continue until
            Japanese naval vessel sunk:
             Minelayer SOKUTEN, by carrier-based aircraft, Palau
Islands,
              Caroline Islands,
              07 d. 20'N, 134 d. 27'E.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 25 Jul 1994 23:45:54 PDT
From:    "Stephen Casey (DLS)" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Smithsonian and A Bomb

From: Bill Smith  <[email-masked]>
To: Multiple recipients of list WWII-L  <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Smithsonian and A Bomb
Date: Friday, July 22, 1994 7:32PM

Stuff deleted:

So who's to say with a few breaks its not Rommel's landing craft in
South America rather than Ike's in France.

More Stuff Deleted:

Don't forget, it was a two-front war -- and while you might scoff at the
material capability of the Japanese, ask folks in the southeastern
Atlantic seaboard about the roaming German wolfpacks.
_______

If Germany couldn't invade Southern or Eastern Britain after the fall
of France, when  the British had been defeated and lost huge amounts of
equipment as well as men in France, when their defences were relatively
weak and they were fighting with only the help of Commonwealth troops,
and when the Germans were winning the war and hadn't suffered any
setbacks on the Eastern Front, surely it was obvious that there was
little chance of them trying to invade the US from equatorial
Africa/South America at a later period when things weren't going so
well and they were further stretched fighting on the Eastern Front.
Even if Argentina was friendly and invited the Germans in, the Germans
still had to negotiate the Mediterranean and Western Africa to get to
the  embarkation point, get across the Atlantic and then they had to go
through Central America and Mexico before they even got to a US border.

There is a huge difference between U-Boats sinking ships in terratorial
waters and actually controlling the seas. There was no liklihood of
Germany assembling a fleet that would be capable of getting an army
across the Atlantic, even if there was no enemy action to try to stop
them. That must have been obvious to anyone who looked seriously at a
map and had been following events in Europe for the previous few years.

I don't know enough about the Pacific to feel confident about
commenting on it, but I imagine that anything I said above is equally
true for the west coast of the US.

Stephen Casey.

[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 25 Jul 1994 07:45:18 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: A-bomb, was: Re: PC at the Smithsonian

Geesh! What a thread!

This is great reading, great history, and great learning! From what started
as marginally off-topic, this discussion has touched many viewpoints and
generations (Judging from the age revelations). Such a discussion might be
hugely benificial in a more public forum! What topics!

Seriosly, I'd like to thank Joe Barrone (list owner) for allowing this to
carry on. Sure, some of us disagree, but the manner of that disagreement
is at such a level as to astonish me. I work in a college, and I haven't
seen such a free exchange of different ideas without violence and threats!

This is what the list is all about IMHO. Thank you all for such enlightenment!

                                        With respect;           Steve
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - [email-masked] |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 25 Jul 1994 08:15:07 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Smithsonian and A Bomb

Casey says,...
>There is a huge difference between U-Boats sinking ships in terratorial
>waters and actually controlling the seas. There was no liklihood of
>Germany assembling a fleet that would be capable of getting an army
>across the Atlantic, even if there was no enemy action to try to stop
>them. That must have been obvious to anyone who looked seriously at a
>map and had been following events in Europe for the previous few years.

I believe "fear" was the operative word. Fear doesn't follow logic.

2 cents,... -Al

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Wild, LAN MGR.  Father of 1.556           Voice:          (401) 792-2611
ACC - Lippitt - URI  American Legion Post 102. FAX:            (401) 792-5479
Kingston, RI  02881                            Bitnet:           AWild@URIACC
                                               Internet: [email-masked]

"When war is declared, Truth is the first casualty." -Arthur Ponsonby
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 25 Jul 1994 08:21:23 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: A-bomb, was: Re: PC at the Smithsonian

Steve says,...
>carry on. Sure, some of us disagree, but the manner of that disagreement
>is at such a level as to astonish me. I work in a college, and I haven't
>seen such a free exchange of different ideas without violence and threats!

Well, ya know, Steve,... we're actually all waiting for Lou to get his
boxing gloves back on! ;-)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Wild, LAN MGR.  Father of 1.556           Voice:          (401) 792-2611
ACC - Lippitt - URI  American Legion Post 102. FAX:            (401) 792-5479
Kingston, RI  02881                            Bitnet:           AWild@URIACC
                                               Internet: [email-masked]

"When war is declared, Truth is the first casualty." -Arthur Ponsonby
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 25 Jul 1994 08:12:09 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Russian capture of Berlin

Hello, Jim!

I saw that documentary as well, and, while I agree that it was well
done, I really take issue with that last officer's estimate that
600,000 Russians died taking that city. I can believe that figure for
the killed, wounded and missing, but I have a tough time believing
that figure, and also based on his statement that there were
Americans "who had taken steps to conquer Berlin."

    Anyway, that is my two cents' worth on this.

    Thanks.

    Terry

> The Russian casualty toll in Berlin was astounding.  The documentary
> (based on Russian sources) claims that 600,000 Russians were killed.
> In other words,to capture one city long after the outcome of the war was
> decided the Russians suffered twice the total of all American battle
> deaths in all theaters in World War II!  No wonder the final death toll
> of the USSR was so high.
> Jim Curry
>

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 25 Jul 1994 08:14:58 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Richard Bong

Hello, Jim!

You are absolutely right. Dick Bong was killed on the same day that
the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, 6 Aug 1945.

    What a loss, as you suggest, for a man to go through so much, in
the name of saving him from probable death in combat, to die so
ignominiously.

    Thanks, Jim.

    Terry

>  Richard Bong was killed flying a jet fighter--but not in combat.  The
> plane was a Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star,and Bong was then serving as a
> test pilot.  I believe Bong's fatal accident occurred in August 1945.
> It was very sad, but not uncommon, for an ace to survive years of combat
> only to die in some plane crash in the States.
> Jim Curry
>

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 25 Jul 1994 08:25:50 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 50TH: JULY 20 PLOT

Hello, John!

Great to hear from you, and hope you are well.

>   Since writing the above excerpt, I have given further thought to this subject
> and am not so sure that Hitler's death would have led to an earlier end of the
> war.

    If I may, I would say that yes, it would have led to an earlier
conclusion to the conflict. Hostilities would have ceased and an
armistice, at least, would have been the result, until a government
had been formed that the Allies could have respected.

 Nor am I so certain that his death would have been in the
Allied
> interest.

    His death or demise would have definitely been in the Allied
interest. The partitioning of Germany would have occurred,
regardless, I think. Also, it would have been in everyone's interest
that AH had died, if for nothing more than the lives
of hundreds of thousands, in not in the millions, would have been
spared, who died, needlessly, as a result of the continuation of the
conflict.

 This, however, is an "iffy" subject, and I am not sure it is
very > useful to speculate about it.

 Perhaps, but it is an interesting point, and thank you for broaching
it.

>   I noticed in the commentaries which appeared in the International Herald
> Tribune on July 20 and 21 that the contributor who condemned the demand for
> unconditional surrender did not set forth the surrender terms which he thought
> the Allies should have offered as an alternative.

    I think that the call for unconditional surrender led to a
stiffening of
German resistance and created the environment to fight to the very
end with all means possible, but, perhaps the word, unconditional,
may have been omitted. Other concepts associated with unconditional
surrender could have been decided or debated at the conference table.
But, I do think that the term was unfortunate, because I think
Germany would have come to terms earlier had it not been for Mr.
Roosevelt's call for their unconditional surrender.

>   I have yet to see anyone propose a concrete alternative to unconditional
> surrender.  If anyone else has, I would be interested in knowing about it.

    Please see above.

    And thank you very much for allowing me to add my two cents'
worth to this.

    All the best to you and your family.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 25 Jul 1994 09:28:13 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Smithsonian and A Bomb

>
> If Germany couldn't invade Southern or Eastern Britain after the fall
> of France, when  the British had been defeated and lost huge amounts of
> equipment as well as men in France, when their defences were relatively
> weak and they were fighting with only the help of Commonwealth troops,
> and when the Germans were winning the war and hadn't suffered any
> setbacks on the Eastern Front, surely it was obvious that there was
> little chance of them trying to invade the US from equatorial
> Africa/South America at a later period when things weren't going so
> well and they were further stretched fighting on the Eastern Front.

It's very easy to predict the past. The issue was never whether Germany
*could* have invaded the United States by way of Africa and South
America, or whether Japan could have invaded California. The issue was
whether in 1941-1942 we worried about these two possibilities.

We certainly did.

Similarly, Britain worried about an invasion which Hilter apparently had
neither the means nor the will to mount. And they were right to
worry. So were we.

            - Dan      <[email-masked]>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 25 Jul 1994 09:45:56 EDT
From:    Charles Mattocks <[email-masked]>
Subject: USS Amberjack

I have been told by my grandmother that I had a cousin last name Stevenson, I
believe, who was aboard the USS Amber Jack during WWII.  It was out of New
Britain, and listed as overdue, presumed sunk.  Does anyone have any
information on this submarine?  If so my adress is [email-masked].
Thanks for any help.
Chip Mattocks

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 25 Jul 1994 09:14:00 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: DOC: Katyn Massacre

Lou Coatney's thesis on the Katyn Massacre is now available at

byrd.mu.wvnet.edu
/pub/history/military/wwii/special.studies/katyn.massacre

The document is in Word Perfect 5.x format.

Lou, would a plain text version of the document be ok? I can convert and
upload one if so.

Larry J

[email-masked]; Co-Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU (Historical docs)
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 25 Jul 1994 09:30:40 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Truman/Atom Bomb

Hello, Dan!

Just wanted to add my two cents' to this.

> There is a Japanese Asian history scholar at Harvard named Akira. (I
> mean, he is Japanese and he teaches Asian history.) When the author made
> the point that the people a) couldn't understand the Emperor because he
> was speaking in an obsolete court language and b) were so shocked to hear
> His voice (I mean, this is God speaking!) that the whole nation broke
> down in tears, Akira said in effect:

    Akira is absolutely correct about that speech made by the
Emperor. Did you know that that broadcast speech was a recording, and
not a live broadcast? Also, there was a concerted effort by right
wing officers to seize and destroy that recording before its
broadcast, but, obviously were prevented from doing so. Please
consult the book "Japan's Longest Day" (the author's name escapes me
for the moment). It goes into much much detail on this, that I
haven't seen anywhere else.

    It is a fascinating story.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 25 Jul 1994 09:43:08 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Invasion of Japan (was:Politics & the Smithsonian)

Hello, David!

> Daniel, I believe that the U.S. estimated 1,000,000 American casualties
> if they had to invade Japan, not 100,000 as you had suggested. One
> million may seem outrageous, but I think that the Americans had about 100,000
> casualties in the Battle of the Bulge alone, just to put things in
> perspective. Cheers,

    That estimate of 1 million American casualties in the invasion
of Japan is correct. That was the projection at the time.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 25 Jul 1994 10:20:20 EDT
From:    SKIP WILDER <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN  LTCOL Tsuji Masanobu

For Dan Ford:
        You mentioned the infamous LTCOL Masanobu.  What happened to him
after the war?
        Regards,
 -----------------------------------------------------------
 |    Skip Wilder              |                           |
 |    [email-masked]      |"The road to hell is paved |
 |    FAX (703)528-2103        | with good intentions."    |
 |    McLean, Virginia, U.S.A. |                           |
 -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 25 Jul 1994 14:50:21 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Subject: ARC: GREEN BOOKS

FOR LARRY JEWELL

You said the following in a message:

>BTW, my P&M about digitizing the Green Books must have reached receptive
>ears, I've heard from a company that has 35 of them on disk. They're
>sending me a sample and I'll report when I've had a good look at them.

This could be good news.  I have lost track of this useful project of yours.  Do
you mean to say you have converted 35 of the Green Books?

As a matter of curiosity, what does P&M mean?  (BTW I understand.)  (g)

  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 25 Jul 1994 16:18:37 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Subject: 50TH: AN INFANTRY COMPANY IN ACTION

  Despite the casualties caused by the bombing during Operation Cobra, our
forces moved forward, and the following day (July 26) General Collins turned
loose the armor.
  When doing research in the National Archives, I learned that there were
historians following us and interviewing soldiers shortly after various battles.
I found in fact some 500 pages of such interviews for the 4th Infantry Division.
One of them was with officers of C Company of the 8th Regiment, following
the breakout.  In my book LETTERS HOME, I summarized this interview as follows:

BEGIN EXCERPTS

          It is not easy to convey what happens when a rifle
          company attacks, let alone what happened after the July
          25 bombing and artillery barrage. Fortunately, a historian
          attached to the 4th Division interviewed the commanders
          of C Company of the First Battalion shortly after the
          battle. These were Lt. Joseph L. Gude and Lt. William
          Woodruff, who took over the company after Gude stepped
          on a nail when hopping over a fence. This is a summary
          of their account.

          The company moved into the line of departure shortly
          before the bombing. Fortunately, the troops which had
          been there had been well dug in, and C Company had
          dug more. Although a few of the men had to be dug out
          after the bombing, only one man was injured. As a result,
          the company was able to move forward when the artillery
          barrage ended.

          In the first thousand yards, the company ran into little
          resistance. The rifle and machine gun fire they received
          was disorganized and did not last long.

          When the company reached the St. Lo-Periers highway,
          they saw a German lying under a vehicle. It would have
          been easy to shoot him, but Sgt. Blake decided to
          capture him. As he advanced, the German shot and killed
          him. A few seconds later the German was also dead.

          With the help of tanks, the company overcame resistance
          from houses near the crossroad. At that point, the tank
          dozer was damaged. Since the tanks depended on it to
          knock down hedgerows, they were unable to continue
          until the dozer was repaired. C Company, therefore,
          crossed the highway and advanced without the tanks.

          About seven hundred yards further south, a bazooka
          team had to knock out a tank before the company could
          continue its advance. By that time, Company B had come
          abreast of C, accompanied by tanks. These fired on
          houses from which Germans were firing, and the shooting
          ceased.

          Continuing their advance toward la Chapelle en Juger,
          the company made contact with the 9th Division, which
          was on the 4th Division's right, but in an unwanted way.
          It began to receive what is now called friendly fire in the
          form of artillery. As the interview said, "The shells were
          bursting right over our heads. We hugged the ditches
          along the hedgerows which was the only cover we had.
          We were very fortunate and had only one casualty, a first
          platoon man who was hit in the shoulder."

          The following day, the company took la Chapelle en Juger
          without resistance, capturing a few prisoners. When the
          company received fire from a gun south of the town, it
          used its mortars and hit the German ammunition dump.
          "The explosion was something to see and it completely
          destroyed the gun."

          When the company reached the road running east from
          Marigny, it saw a number of Germans coming out of the
          town. It swung the tanks across the road to block them.
          After a short fire fight, the company captured fifteen
          prisoners.

          Crossing the St. Lo-Coutances highway, the company
          occupied an orchard a few hundred yards to its south.
          Being on the battalion objective, it paused. During those
          two days, the company had only two casualties, Sgt.
          Blake and the man wounded by the 9th Division artillery.

          Looking back on the experience, Gude said, "I believe
          every man in the company will agree that if we have such
          an attack again they would want the bombing just where
          it was, right up to our lines. We would rather take the
          ones that fall on us to get the effect on the Germans
          right in front of us. This bombing completely destroyed
          organized German resistance all the way thru their
          position. Such Germans as we found were relatively easy
          to handle."

END EXCERPTS

  Joe Gude, who was wounded once in Germany and returned to duty, survived the
war.  When we were being discharged from the Army and were saying goodbye to
each other, he said, "It sure has been fun hasn't it."
  When working on my book, I fell to wondering what had happened to him after
the war.  Through the telephone directory on Compuserve, I got his phone number.
The next time I was in Washington, DC, we had dinner.  I learned that he
returned to the family dairy but could not face milking those cows ever day.
Hence he went back into the Army, faught in Korea and Viet Nam, and retired as a
colonel.
  Woodie Woodward also enjoyed fighting but was less lucky than Gude.  Shortly
before the end of the war, he was walking by a German tank when the turret blew
off.  It fell on him and killed him.  What a way to die after all that combat.
Gude told me that he later took Woodie's body home for burial.
  I should add that Joe and Woodie were unusual, in that they seemed to enjoy
combat.  Perhaps as a result, they were excellent officers.  Most of us did what
we did out of a sense of duty, but we did not find it fun.
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 25 Jul 1994 17:10:19 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Subject: 50TH: OPERATION COBRA PLANNING

  Oslo, July 25, 1994

  In commenting on my entry regarding COBRA, Alan Wild says:

The affect was of a lack of communications firstly, and of troop
movements. The original plan included withdrawing Collin's troops
1500 yards begind the Periers road. "Leigh-Mallory could not confirm
the agreement (on the parallel drop), for he had been called out of the
(planning) conference at Stanmore before it ended." Air Marshall
Leigh-Mallory was with Strategic Air.

source: A Soldier's Story

  COMMENT:  There is conflicting evidence of just what happened at the planning
conference.  It is true that Leigh-Mallory left the meeting early.  However,
there was discussion later among air force officers about what the decisions
were. Quesada, who commanded the tactical air, thought there was agreement on
parallel bombing, which his aircraft did and was critical of what the bombers
did.
  After reading various accounts, I hold Bradley and his staff responsible for
not following up regarding what had been agreed.
  There is, however, a more fundamental question regarding when it is desirable
to take casualties from your own air and artillery.  As my entry regarding
Company C indicated, the company commander did not object at the time to what
happened.
  I have earlier told the story about how the artillery observer lifted fire too
early during an attack on a strong point near Cherbourg, out of concern for
having shells land on our forces.  The result was very heavy casualties from
German fire.
  When we got to the Huertgen Forest, the high command was so concerned
about our taking casualties that the bombing was well behind the front lines.
As a result, it did damage to German logistics, but the front line German troops
were not affected at all.  Given what happened later, it might have been worth
taking some casualties from our bombs in order to plaster the forest.
  The reality, however, was that soldiers and commanders were (and are) much
more willing to take casualties from enemy fire than their own.
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 25 Jul 1994 10:20:03 GMT-6
From:    Terry Moore <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Pacific-inferior equipment?

Hello, Jon!

Would like to offer an answer to your question.

> My question is --  was basic equipment like this simply not available in
> large amounts in 1942?  Did the Marine Corps recieve less material than
> the Army or even inferior material than the Army? Or was what happened to
> my dad just a fluke?

    My understanding of USMC supply was that the Corps was at the low
end of priority. Thus, the Corps received its allocations after those
of the Army were satisfied. Not a fair situation, as I see it.

  Hope this helps.

    Terry

Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College
P.O. Box 447, Amarillo, Texas 79178, voice 806-371-5077
fax 806-371-5370

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 25 Jul 1994 13:09:12 -0230
From:    OLAF <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: USS Amberjack

X-News: leif mail.wwii-l:11570

>From: [email-masked] (Charles Mattocks)
>Subject:USS Amberjack
>Date: 25 Jul 1994 11:18:24 -0230
>Message-ID:<[email-masked]>

>I have been told by my grandmother that I had a cousin last name Stevenson, I
>believe, who was aboard the USS Amber Jack during WWII.  It was out of New
>Britain, and listed as overdue, presumed sunk.  Does anyone have any
>information on this submarine?  If so my adress is [email-masked].
>Thanks for any help.
>Chip Mattocks

I don't know if Amberjack is covered, but there's a new book out by
Harry Holmes entitled "The Last Patrol" (Naval Institute Press, March 1994,
ISBN 1-85310-414-0, $32.95) which deatils the operational histories of
52 American submarines lost during the war.

Olaf Janzen
Corner Brook, Newfoundland

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 25 Jul 1994 08:44:10 -0700
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 26-JUL-1944

On 26-JUL-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The US 8th Division (VIII Corps) cuts the road linking Lessay
     with Periers. The 90th Division establishes a bridgehead across the river
     Seves. The 1st Division (VII Corps) captures Marigny; while the 2nd
     Armoured Division takes Canisy and St Gilles. The V Corps goes on the
     offensive east of St Lo.

Eastern Front - Some units of the Leningrad Front are detached from the
     relatively quite Finnish front and are concentrated against the German
     Army Group North and subsequently take Narva, in Estonia. Troops of the
     1st Belorussian Front reach the Vistula.

Rumania - Bombers from the US 5th Air Force, on the shuttle run between USSR
     and Italy, make a successful attack on German installations between
     Ploesti and Bucharest, in Rumania.

Marianas - On Guam, the Marines and Infantry begin mopping up on the Orote
     Peninsula and advance a mile through very difficult marshy jungle. The
     3rd Marine Division repels strong Japanese attack on the northern
     beachhead. On Tinian, the 2nd and 4th Marine Division advance towards the
     south of the island against slight resistance.

New Guinea - The US troops in the Aitape sector re-group in preparation for
     future Japanese attacks expected in the Afua area. The Japanese
     resistance continues on Biak and Numfoor islands.

Burma/China - The Chinese forces attack Teng-chung east of the river Salween.
     They take the Lai-feng, a rocky peak that overlooks the roads leading
     into the town.

Hawaii - President Roosevelt has had a conference with Admiral Halsey and
     General MacArthur about the strategy of the Pacific War. Halsey maintains
     that it will be possible to skip the Philippines for a direct attack on
     Formosa. MacArthur disagrees. The debate is very heated and controversial
     and this difference of opinion is to last a long time.

Naval Dispatches
----------------
US submarine GOLET (SS-361) reported as presumed lost, Pacific Ocean area.

Submarine ROBALO (SS-273) sunk due to unknown cause, off western Palawan, P.I.

Japanese submarine I-29 sunk by submarine SAWFISH (SS-276), Luzon Strait, P.I.

The Homefront
-------------
Army Cancel Civilian Leaves - The Army has canceled leaves of Army civilian
     workers in arsenals and depots and orders 54 hour work weeks to speed up
     production and transport of munitions. Overtime will be paid for time
     worked over 40 hours a week.

US Debt Tops $209 Billion - The US public debt had reached $209,002,582,064.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  ([email-masked]/[email-masked])
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 25 Jul 1994 10:56:51 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Smithsonian and A Bomb

Casey sounds like a general or admiral in 1930.  Assuming that there is
no such thing as an air force.  I remember reading that Germany was
working on a long range heavy bomber that could reach the United States
even in 1935.  True???

While admittedly a bit exaggerated, I just read Major De Seversky's
Victory Through Air Power.  It isn't pretty...

George Bauer
U.S.A.:  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 25 Jul 1994 12:03:30 EDT
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [INF] USAAF 20 JUN 44

Rest assure FDR, many of us will never forget...

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 25 Jul 1994 11:59:06 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Invasion of Japan (was:Politics & the Smithsonian)

Thus Spoketh Terry Moore, Professor of German and French, Amarillo College

>    That estimate of 1 million American casualties in the invasion
>of Japan is correct. That was the projection at the time.

I think the Japaneese estimates were a factor of 4, weren't they?

Think of all those kiddies of my generation that have fathers because of
Hiroshima/Nagasaki. Think of all the Japaneese kiddies of my generation that
have fathers because of Hiroshima/Nagasaki.

I made my trip to the New England Air Museum yesterday. The first thing I saw
was an old B-29. When I told my wife we were lucky to have such in our arsenal,
she was predictably miffed;-).

At the risk of sounding like a faded politician, those bombs were lifesavers.
Not because they caused destruction, but because they made the Japaneese High
Coincil see the light.
                                                                Steve

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - [email-masked] |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
(Now THAT will cause a stir ;^) )

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 25 Jul 1994 12:42:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Moe Berg, Baseball Player

RE: Moe Berg

There was a book review in an issue of the New York Times in the last two
weeks that derides all of the claimed fetes of Moe Berg.  I scimmed the
article and the few things I remember the author stating were (1) Berg did
not speak "n" number of languages, (2) his film was NOT used by the
Doolittle Raiders and (3) he did NOT attend the famous meeting in
Switzerland.  If I remember correctly, the author was stating that Berg
invented most of these stories himself and they were not based in fact.

Perhaps someone who has access to the newspaper or the files can check this
out.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 25 Jul 1994 12:18:09 CDT
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re[2]: Pacific-inferior equipment?

Every troop believes he is at the worse end of the supply chain.
Somebody else is always getting something better than you are.  It's the
classic "the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence."
Everybody was playing catch up in 1942 because the industrial base was
expanding and the products were just beginning to arrive to the troops.
I would say everyone was on the low end of it for a while, except for a
few high priority units.

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 25 Jul 1994 13:45:52 EST
From:    Leslie Rampey <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN or TRV: "Instinct Ability"?

Hi, all --

     Can anyone help me out with this?  In his research a colleague of mine
has come across the evaluation/diagnosis of "instinct ability" (two words)
that was used as a basis of deferment from the service during World War II.
We can't find a definition of this term in any standard reference source.
Anyone here ever heard of it?  Or perhaps suggest where else we could look?
     PLEASE reply directly to me at the above:
                ([email-masked])
as I have had to suspend my regular subscription to this list.  Any info
would be much appreciated.  Thanks a million!

Leslie Rampey

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 25 Jul 1994 13:40:56 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: Japanese mindset

   Wataru Tsurumi's _The Complete Guide to Suicide_ is a bestseller in
Japan, the land of ceremonial self-destruction where some 22,000 people
killed themselves last year. In the do-it-yourself handbook, the 29 year
old Tsurumi offers instructions on 10 ways of doing yourself in (classical
hara-kiri, however, is not included). Angela Kohler, Tokyo correspondent
for _Die Presse_ of Vienna, says Tsurumi's book explains the discomfort
of different approaches and also the possible ways of failing at them.
The guide then rates the methods - not with stars but with skulls. Jumping
in front of a train merits one skull; finding the perfect spot to freeze
to death is a five-skull suicide.

   Kohler writes that Tsurumi's defense of his controversial work is that
people need alternatives to the "hopeless and anonymous life in Japan's
big cities". Around Mt Fuji, 5 of the 39 corpses found this year had copies
of the suicide manual nearby.

Source: World Press Review

Alan Wild

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Wild, LAN MGR.  Father of 1.556           Voice:          (401) 792-2611
ACC - Lippitt - URI  American Legion Post 102. FAX:            (401) 792-5479
Kingston, RI  02881  NRA Life Member           BITNET:           AWild@URIACC
                                               Internet: [email-masked]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 25 Jul 1994 17:22:24 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN LTCOL Tsuji Masanobu

>         You mentioned the infamous LTCOL Masanobu.  What happened to him
> after the war?

Oh, if we only knew! The British captured him and put him in Rangoon
Gaol, where American investigators began sniffing around because Tsuji
was said to have eaten the liver of an American pilot named Parker before
he retreated across the border from China into Burma. (Lt Parker was
apparently executed at Tsuji's order.) He escaped by posing as orderly to
another Japanese officer and made his way across Thailand, Laos, Vietnam,
and (Nationalist!) China. He returned to Japan in 1949 and wrote several
books. I think he was elected to the Diet and vanished on a trip to China
in 1961.

A British writer in the 1960s said that Tsuji was serving as a staff
officer to Vo Nugyen Giap in the war against the Americans & South
Vietnamese, quoting rumors in Japan.

Interestingly, Neil Sheehan in *A Bright Shining Lie* said that
"thousands" of Japanese soldiers deserted in 1945 in Vietnam rather than
face the shame of going home in defeat, and that they served as training
cadres for the Viet Minh. This would have nicely intersected Tsuji's trek
across SE Asia in 1945-49. If he made contacts with the Viet Minh then,
it would be easier to think of him as joining them in the 1960s.

I called a Vietnamese history professor at Harvard and asked if she'd
ever heard of such a thing. She doubted it; said the Viet Minh *hated*
the Japanese and would have been very unlikely to have used them in the
way Sheehan claimed. So who knows?

It's a great story, in any event.

            - Dan      <[email-masked]>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 25 Jul 1994 15:33:38 -0700
From:    "Office TH325, Extension 3566" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: USS Amberjack

>From:         Charles Mattocks <[email-masked]>
>Subject:      USS Amberjack
>
>I have been told by my grandmother that I had a cousin last name Stevenson, I
>believe, who was aboard the USS Amber Jack during WWII.  It was out of New
>Britain, and listed as overdue, presumed sunk.  Does anyone have any
>information on this submarine?  If so my adress is [email-masked].
>Thanks for any help.
>Chip Mattocks

These three books have some information on Amberjack.

Submarine Operations in World War II, Theodore Roscoe.
Silent Victory, Clay Blair Jr.
Submarines at war, Edwin P. Hoyt

Amberjack sank several ships, including a large one.  She also shot at a
Japanese battleship but missed.  There is some indication in Blair's
book and more in Hoyt's, that perhaps frequent radio communincation
allowed the Japanese to locate and sink her.

John Riegsecker
Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
University of Puget Sound

[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 25 Jul 1994 20:43:08 EDT
From:    Richard Kaplan <[email-masked]>
Subject: Invasion USA, perception & reality

Actually Dan Ford pretty much summed up my feelings about the worry of invasion
on the continental US.  Julie, you asked when did the perception dovetail with
the reality?  Good question, I don't have an answer.  My guess would be
probably after Midway, more assuredly after Alamein and Guadalcanal.  Midway
because we inflicted a serious blow to the Japanese (in the minds of Joe and
Josephine citizen that is), protected Hawaii, and proved we could fight as good
as they could.  El Alamein and Guadalcanal were  important psychological, and
tactical battles because they proved we could take the battle to the enemy on
what had been perceived as his domain, and win.

Maybe the parallel question or idea we should be discussing, as long as we're
talking about public attitudes, is could there have been a point, say if we'd
lost at Midway, or been repulsed at G-Canal (what if we lost Enterprise in
addition to Wasp?), that the Japanese could have offered terms to us, that
would have caused us to suspend hostilities?  The same question could hold true
of Europe if we had failed in North Africa, or Italy.

                                        Richard Kaplan
                                        Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh

P.S.  Who is David Hume?

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 25 Jul 1994 20:58:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 26 JUL 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
WEDNESDAY, 26 JULY 1944 FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  P-61, Northrop Black Widow

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 42 P-40s pound the Myitkyina area
while 16 P-51s hit the Mogaung and Kamaing sectors; about 20 other fighter-
bombers hit targets of opportunity at Hopin, Bhamo, Myothit, Wuntho, and the
N part of Mandalay; 9 B-25s bomb storage sheds at Mohnvin.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 27 B-25s and 3 P-40s blast the town
of Tengchung, breaching the SE wall in several places; 32 P-40s and P-38s
attack targets of opportunity throughout the Tengchung, Lungling, and
Mangshih areas; 97 P-40s attack troops, horses, trucks, fortified points
river shipping, and other targets of opportunity at numerous locations in or
near Siangtan, Changsha, Hengshan, Fulinpu, Leiyang, Pingkiang, Hengyang,
Chaling, and Nanyo; the airfield at Hengyang is also bombed.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 496: Of 192 P-47s, 93
attack the St. Just marshalling yards and 40 attack Givet fuel dump in
France; 1 P-47 is lost (pilot is MIA) and 10 damaged.
  Mission 497: 7 of 7 B-17s drop leaflets in France during the night.
  9 B-24s fly CARPETBAGGER missions.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, weather forces the recall
of several groups of B-26s and A-20s, assigned to support the US First Army,
but about 160 aircraft manage to bomb a fuel dump at Senonches with good
results; fighters escort the bombers, fly cover over the assault area, carry
out close support for ground troops in the Saint-Lo area, and fly armed
reconnaissance in the Poix, Amiens, Chartres, Laval, and Angers areas; and
the detachment of the 422d Night Fighter Squadron, 71st Fighter Wing,
operating from Ford, England with P-61s returns to base at Maupertus.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Fighters on the second shuttle
mission leave USSR Operation FRANTIC bases, strafe enemy aircraft in the
Bucharest-Ploesti, Rumania area, and return to bases in Italy. In Austria,
330+ B-17s and B-24s attack the Wiener Neudorf aircraft factory, the airfield
at Markersdorf, Thalerhof, Zwolfaxing, and Bad Voslau, and targets of
opportunity in the Vienna area. Also hit are Szombathely Airfield, Hungary
and oil storage at Berat, Albania. Fighters fly escort and carry out patrols
and sweeps in the Brod-Zagreb, Yugoslavia and Ploesti-Bucharest, Rumania
areas; bombers and fighters claim 70+ enemy aircraft shot down.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy during the night of 25/26
Jul A-20s bomb roads and motor transport in the Vado Ligure area and hit fuel
supplies during following day; B-25s and B-26s hit bridges in N Italy at
Ronco Scrivia, Vado, Asti, Ostiglia, Carasco, Verona, and Poggio Renatico;
fighter-bombers attack road and rail bridges in N Italy at several points,
strafe and bomb many gun positions, destroy or damage 20+ aircraft at Valence
Airfield, and hit numerous targets of opportunity.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): P-47s and B-25s from Saipan
Island pound Tinian Island. B-25s from Engebi Island attack Ponape Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: B-24s again hit
supply areas, communications, and other targets on Woleai Atoll. In New
Guinea, B-24s bomb airfields at Babo and Ransiki; A-20s and B-25s, along with
Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) fighter-bombers, hit troop concentrations,
small shipping, mortar positions, shore guns, and other targets of
opportunity along the Hollandia-Aitape-Wewak coastline; B-25s bomb Langgoer;
the 408th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 22d Bombardment Group (Heavy), moves
from Nadzab to Owi, Schouten Islands with B-24s; and the 419th Night Fighter
Squadron, 18th Fighter Group, based on Guadalcanal Island, sends a detachment
to operate from Noemfoor Island with P-61s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 26 Jul 1994 12:17:18 +1000
From:    George PISZCZUK <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: DOC: Katyn Massacre

>Lou Coatney's thesis on the Katyn Massacre is now available at
>
>byrd.mu.wvnet.edu
>/pub/history/military/wwii/special.studies/katyn.massacre
>
>The document is in Word Perfect 5.x format.
>
>Lou, would a plain text version of the document be ok? I can convert and
>upload one if so.
>
>Larry J
>
>[email-masked]; Co-Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU (Historical docs)
>"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
>unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
>Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

I have download a copy of the thesis.

Will the maps be available?

George

  -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Piszczuk                          Email: [email-masked]
  University of Newcastle                  Phone: (049) 215440
  Australia                                Fax  : (049) 216907
  -------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 25 Jul 1994 23:28:12 -0400
From:    Joe Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN: VJ Day

Tony Schuler <[email-masked]> writes:
> ... I also note that VJ day is 9/2/45 in America and
> 8/15/45 in Britain. Why the vast differences in dates between the two govern-
> ments?

        Well, Rhode Island is the last state in the Union to still
"celebrate" VJ Day (most non-retail businesses are closed) and it
is celebrated on the second Monday in August (not in September).
There is an annual debate about the morality of the state continuing
the practice but it never proceeds very far primarily, I suspect, because
everyone likes having the day off.  A few months back, two legislators
proposed changing the name of the day to something a bit more "appropriate"
(read "politically correct").  (I think one of them was Barone from
Barrington!  Ack!  I don't recall the name they wished to change it
to -- Alan Wild, father of 1.556, do you recall?)  Needless to say,
they were less than successful in garnering support for their bill
but I suspecct next year will be a tougher deal as 50th commemoratives
flood the airwaves.
--
Joe Barone, Age 36 (since everyone else is doing it!)
[email-masked]
I thought I told you to get me a good-lookin'
kid -- not this fat, sausage-chewin' wino!

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 24 Jul 1994 to 25 Jul 1994
*************************************************