Subject: WWII-L Digest - 6 Jul 1994 to 7 Jul 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1994 00:02:11 -0400

There are 35 messages totalling 1217 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. The Invasion of Japan
  2. [INF] USAAF 7 JUL 44
  3. INF: USN Chronology 07-07-94
  4. INF: 50 Years Ago - 07-JUL-1944
  5. E. Front Armour (2)
  6. A-bomb/Smithsonian (4)
  7. Conduct in Russia
  8. Richard Bong (10)
  9. KB1MK de WA1KWA
 10. GEN: GENERAL SHORT
 11. GEN: WHAT IF HIROSHIMA HAD NOT ENDED THE WAR?
 12. POL: Uberparteilichkeit
 13. GI mail in Italy
 14. To B(omb) or not to b(omb)
 15. Bob Stevens (3)
 16. Bong revisited (2)
 17. Work in progress
 18. WWII-L Digest?  Possible?
 19. ARC: Battle of the Bulge Green Book at byrd.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 05:11:26 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: The Invasion of Japan

Among the few hard facts we have about Japanese preparations for an
American invasion was the conversion of its army and navy aircraft as
"special attack" planes. By June 1945, 8000 planes had actually been
converted for suicide missions against the American fleet, with 2,500
more scheduled for conversion. They ranged from purpose-built "Baka"
piloted bombs to pathetic biplane trainers with a drum of gasoline in the
rear seat.

By way of comparison, the Japanese army and navy went to war in December
1941 with fewer than 2,500 planes in the inventory.

There was gasoline to fuel these planes, pilots to fly them, and
underground hangars in many cases to protect them during the preliminary
bombardment.

"Special Attack" missions got underway in October 1944 against the U.S.
Fleet in the Philippines campaign. With about 1,000 planes available,
Japanese pilots flew 650 suicide sorties and made 174 hits or damaging
near misses on American surface vessels.

For the final defense of the homeland, the Japanese planned to hold the
Special Attack units back until the Americans were actually in the landing
barges in large numbers, and then to expend their 11,000 aircraft in a
10-day period against the fleet, transports, and landing craft. Based on
the Philippines experience, something like 2,000 hits or damaging misses
would have been made.

Note that the Normandy landing in June 1944 was virtually unopposed by
the German air air force.

            - Dan      <[email-masked]>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 06:59:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 7 JUL 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
FRIDAY, 7 JULY 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  P-61, Northrop Black Widow

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 20 fighter-bombers hit targets of
opportunity at Okkyin and Namkwin and strafe trucks near Myitkyina; and 4
B-25s attack bridges and railroad tracks at Hopin and Naba.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In the Tungting Lake area of China, B-25s and
fighter-bombers hit Yoyang, Siangtan, Liling, and Yungfengshih, strafe
cavalry forces N of Yuhsien, hit river shipping, troops, and a pontoon bridge
at Siangsiang, attack compounds in the Leiyang area, and bomb storage at
Shihshow; 10 miles (16.1 km) E of Ichang on the Yangtze River P-40s
thoroughly blast a Japanese post; and B-25s and P-51s bomb Tien Ho and White
Cloud Airfields and pound the town of Tsingyun.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Twentieth Air Force): 14 B-29s, operating out of
Chengtu, China during the night of 7/8 Jul, bomb Sasebo, Omura, and Tobata,
Japan (most of the planes hitting the Sasebo area); 3 others attack secondary
and last resort targets at Laoyao and in the Hankow area of China.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 458: 1,129 bombers and
756 fighters are dispatched to attack synthetic oil plants, aircraft assembly
plants and engine works, airfields and an equipment depot, marshalling yards
railway station and railway repair shops in Germany; 37 bombers and 6
fighters are lost:
  1. Of 373 B-24s, 102 hit Lutzkendorf and 64 hit Halle oil plants, 90 hit
Bernburg and 73 hit Aschersleben aircraft plants and 8 hit targets of
opportunity; they claim 39-5-10 Luftwaffe aircraft; 28 B-24s are lost, 1
damaged beyond repair and 126 damaged; 3 airmen are KIA, 11 WIA and 274 MIA.
Escort is provided by 224 P-38s, P-47s and P-51s; they claim 46-1-16
Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 P-38 and 3 P-51s are lost (pilots are MIA).
  2. Of 303 B-17s, 64 hit Bohlen and 51 hit Merseburg oil plants, 67 hit
Kolleda and 32 hit Lutzkendorf Airfields, 22 hit targets of opportunity and
16 hit Gottingen marshalling yard; 2 B-17s are lost and 112 damaged; 3 airmen
are WIA and 20 MIA. Escort is provided by 185 P-38s, P-47s and P-51s; they
claim 9-0-1 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 3-0-1 on the ground; 1 P-47 and
1 P-51 are lost (pilots are MIA).
  3. Of 453 B-17s, 114 hit Leipzig/Taucha, 79 hit Leipzig/Mockau, 35 hit
Leipzig/Heiterblick and 15 hit Leipzig/Abtnaundorf oil plants, 46 hit Leipzig
bearing industry, 35 hit Kolleda Airfield, 19 hit Leipzig Station and 7 hit
Nordhausen; 7 B-17s are lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 152 damaged; 15
airmen are KIA, 5 WIA and 50 MIA. Escort is provided by 247 P-47s and P-51s;
they claim 20-0-2 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 1-0-0 on the ground; 1
P-51 is damaged beyond repair (pilot is WIA).
  Mission 459: 6 of 6 B-17s drop leaflets in France and Belgium during the
night.
  19 B-24s participate in CARPETBAGGER operations during the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, 100+ A-20s and B-26s bomb
rail bridge near Tours, and targets of opportunity in the Lisieux and
Beuzeville areas; 500+ fighters fly escort and area cover, carry out armed
reconnaissance of communication and troop activity, and bomb railroads,
rolling stock, marshalling yards, ammunition dumps, and bridges in frontline
areas and wide areas of W France; HQ 36th Fighter Group moves from
Kingsnorth, England to Brucheville; and the 377th, 378th and 379th Fighter
Squadrons, 362d Fighter Group, move from Headcorn, England to Lignerolles
with P-47s. In England, the 392d Fighter Squadron, 367th Fighter Group, moves
from Stony Cross to Ibsley with P-38s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 560+ bombers attack in Germany
and Yugoslavia; B-17s bomb 2 synthetic oil plants at Blechhammer, Germany;
B-24s also hit Blechhammer and a synthetic oil and coking plant at Odertal,
Germany and Zagreb, Yugoslavia Airfield and marshalling yard; the bombers and
fighter escorts claim 50+ aircraft shot down during fierce battle with 275-
300 fighters mainly in the Vienna-Budapest area; 18 US aircraft are listed as
destroyed and a larger number missing.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy during the night of 6/7
Jul A-20s bomb La Spezia harbor and motor transport in the area, and resume
an attack on fuel supplies during the day; B-26s and B-25s score direct hits
on railway bridges at Reggio Emilia, and over the Fratta River and possible
hits on the Santa Maria di Mugnano bridge and 2 other bridges in the area;
they also hit Collecchio fuel dump, causing many fires and explosions;
fighter-bombers attack Ferrara Airfield, the town of Empoli, and rail lines,
bridges, fuel and ammunition dumps, motor transport, and numerous other
targets in the battle area as US Fifth Army forces complete the clearing of
Rosignano; and a detachment of the 346th Fighter Squadron, 350th Fighter
Group, based at Pomigliano begins operating from Piombino with P-39s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA, Seventh Air Force): P-61s carry out interceptor
missions over Guam, Saipan, and Rota Islands, Marianas Islands, during the
night of 6/7 Jul.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: In New Guinea,
B-24s and A-20s bomb Moemi and Nabire Airfields; supply dumps along the Wiske
River are also attacked; a few fighter-bombers and Royal Australian Air Force
(RAAF) aircraft attack barges, gun positions, and troops along the coast in
the Wewak area. B-24s bomb Yap Island, Sorol Atoll radio station, and runway
in Woleai Atoll.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 04:23:41 PST
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 07-07-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
07/07 Fri.  Japanese naval vessels sunk:
             Destroyer USUGUMO, by submarine SKATE (SS-305), Kurile
              Islands area,
              47 d. 43'N., 147 d. 55'E.
             Destroyer, TAMANAMI, by submarine MINGO (SS-261), South
              China Sea,
              13 d. 55'N., 118 d. 30'E.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 07:33:26 -0500
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 07-JUL-1944

On 07-JUL-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The US 79th and 90th Divisions (VIII Corps) are continuing
     their attempts to break through the German defensive line between La
     Haye-du-Puits and Mont-Castre-Forest, but are having to withstand violent
     counter-attacks. Against growing opposition from two SS divisions, the US
     VII Corps is moving slowly along the Carentan-Periers road. The 30th
     Division establishes a bridgehead near St Jean-de-Daye. RAF bombers carry
     out a heavy night bombing raid against Caen. They drop more than 2,500
     tons of bombs, in preparation for the final assault on the city.

Italian Front - The US 34th Division captures Rosignano. The 4th Mountain
     Division (French Expeditionary Corps) takes Val d'Alsa hill.

Marianas - On Saipan, as dawn arrives about 3,000 Japanase (all that is left
     of the Saipan garrison) hurl themselves in a furious assault against the
     American lines in the Tanapag plain. They sweep through one regiment of
     the 127th Infantry Division and the guns of the 3rd Battalion of the 10th
     Marines. Bitter hand-to-hand fighting takes places. Towards noon, an
     American counter-attack drives the Japanese back and they are pursued
     northwards where they are caught and massacred.

New Guinea - On Biak Island, some Japanese are still holding out in the Ibdi
     area and are heavily bombarded.

Burma/China - The Chinese 8th Army attacks Sung Shan but are repulsed by the
     Japanese and receive heavy losses.

Japan - The Japanese islands are the target of a second raid by US B-29
     Superfortresses. The B-29's concentrate their attack on naval
     installations at Sasebo, in Kyushu Island.

Naval Dispatches
----------------
Japanese destroyer USUGUMO sunk by submarine SKATE (SS-305), Kurile Islands
     area.

Japanese destroyer TAMANAMI sunk by submarine MINGO (SS-261), South China sea.

The Homefront
-------------
Circus Officials Arrested - In Hartford, Conn. five officials of the Ringling
     Bros. and Barnum and Bailey Circus have been arrested as a result of the
     fire yesterday that killed 163 people. The five are charged with
     manslaughter. Authorities allege that the management was negligent in
     providing fire protection and that the tent was waterproofed with a
     paraffin-gasoline mixture.

Soldiers In Train Wreck - Thirty-three bodies, including thirty-one soldiers,
     have been recovered from the wreckage of a troop train that wrecked near
     Jellico, Tenn. More than 100 people were injured in the wreck.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 08:18:45 -0400
From:    Luis Gonzalez <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: E. Front Armour

 There's also a book called Tanks of WWII, a think published by Ballentine,
I can't remember the author, (sorry bad memory for names);
Kursk, by Jeoffrey Jukes also published by Ballentine Books
and if you by any chance like strategy games, the ones published
by the Avalon Hill Company on WWII offer great information on
tanks and their armaments and armour capabilities and performance.
Also the magazine The General sometimes has very good  info
on this matter.

Luis

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 08:35:16 EST
From:    Aldo Hubert <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: E. Front Armour

Thanks Lou, Louis & Terry for the suggestions!

[email-masked]

Aldo M. Hubert
University of North Carolina at Greensboro
Greensboro NC 27412

OBESA CANTAVIT

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 07:53:07 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: A-bomb/Smithsonian

On Wed, 6 Jul 1994 13:59:41 CDT Robert J. Granvin said:
>The second bomb puts a "finality" on the entire experience.  After the first
>bomb, the military leadership still was unwilling to budge.  It took the
>Emperor himself, breaking all tradition and shocking the cabinet by taking
>the matter into his own hands and ordering the surrender.  This didn't happen
>until after the second bomb.

That's not the sense I got the last time I looked at this issue (admittedly,
a *very* long time ago (-: ).  Rather, the "peace faction" had the upper
hand for the first time in a decade & was gradually forging a consensus to
end the war, quite independently of the bombing, or at least, of the second
bombing.  I got the impression that the Japanese would have surrendered in
a month even without Nagasaki.

>Ironically, it's all psychological.  The U.S. only possessed two such
>weapons, but through its actions proved that the first use was not an
>experiment (even though it was) and proved to the Japanese that this weapon
>truly works.  Follow this with the impression that the U.S. may, in fact,
>have an unlimited supply of bombs and you are faced with a truly black or
>white decision.

I believe the US had the plutonium/enriched uranium for 3-5 more bombs which
could have been assembled in short order.  Thereafter, the plants could have
produced the material for a bomb a month or two.  The technology wasn't
"difficult", just unbelievably tedious.

As for psychology, that causes me to scratch my head a little.  After all, the
ones we had to convince weren't in Hiroshima or Nagasaki, and communications
were pretty thoroughly shot up.  It took a while for the cabinet to realize
just what had happened to Hiroshima.  I know there was a serious debate about
what to hit for the first target--some wanted Mt. Fujiyama, for example.  I
think I would have favored Tokyo bay.  A whole heck of a lot of people would
have seen it, including the leadership, and the implied followup threat would
have been unmistakeable.  One argument against such demonstrations was, what
if they didn't work?  Then the Japanese would have a bomb to study.  But of
course--the same is true if the bomb doesn't go off over Hiroshima or Nagasaki.

>IMHO, the second bomb was very probably "necessary."

The whole question has a good many ramifications not yet touched on.  For
example, Uncle Joe Stalin was the Japanese conduit to the west.  Naturally,
he slowed up or stopped relaying messages between both sides just when they
would have been most needed--he was getting ready to attack Manchuria.  Or,
there was always the possibility of blockade.  Japan was starving to death.
Invasion probably wouldn't have been necessary, and the 1,000,000 casualty
figure with it.  (Ah, but if one resorts to blockade, one must also decide
how many women, children, sick, and aged to starve to death, as they
inevitably will, before taking more decisive steps.  In war, there are never
easy answers.)

My own take is that the bombing *probably* was not necessary to end the war
w/o great casualties. . . but that the planners could not have known that
at the time of Hiroshima.  The second bomb was even more probably not
necessary, and there is more than a little suggestion that the urge to
experiment played a big part in the decision to drop it.

There is a coda to this:  the 3rd Honinbo match was being played in Hiroshima
at the time of the bombing.  A go game was in progress, and, well, interrupted
as you can imagine.  It eventually went down in the records as "The Atomic
Bomb game".  I have an account somewhere or another that I'll try to bring
in--the players were very fortunate to escape.

ken koester
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 09:19:42 EST
From:    Aldo Hubert <[email-masked]>
Subject: Conduct in Russia

Terry writes:
>
>     No. Manstein was a professional soldier of the highest
> credentials. Had he been shown to have given such an order and
> carried it out, I feel certain that the Russians would have had him
> up on war crimes, and would have found himself sitting in the dock,
> which didn't happen.
>
>     I, personally, have the greatest admiration for his abilities,
> for he showed himself to be the consummate professional. Had he
been
> given control of operations on the Eastern Front from the beginning,
> I feel certain that the outcome would have been different. I think
> that needs to be considered regardless.
>
A day or so ago, John Gillies wrote:

At Manstein's trial, the prosecution introduced in evidence an Order
of the Day, issued by Manstein on November 20, 1941, in which he
reminded each soldier of the 11th Army that he was "not merely a
fighter according to the rules of the art of war, but also the
bearer of a pitiless ideology......therefore the soldier should
understand the necessity for a severe but just revenge on subhuman
Jewry."
Sounds a little more than "professionalism" to me.
Manstein was sentenced to 18 years imprisonment (subsequently
reduced to twelve).

Regarding this discussion of the Conduct in Russia, I happened to run
across the following orders issued by Hitler in Rise & Fall of the third
Reich (William Shirer, of course):

In March of 1941 (obviously before the conflict began), Hitlet is
recorded as commanding that

           the war against Russia will be such that is cannot be conducted
     in a knightly fashion.  This struggle is one of ideologies and racial
     differences and will have to be conducted with unprecedented,
     unmerciful and unrelenting harshness.  All officers will have to rid
     themselves of obsolete ideologies.  I know that the necessity for such
     means of waging war is beyond the comprehension of you generals,
      but... I insist absolutely that my orders be executed without
     contridiction.  the commissars are the bearers of ideologies directly
     opposed to National Socialism.  Therefore the comissars will be
      liquidated.  German soldiers guility of breaking international law..will
     be excused.  Russia has not participated in the Hague Convention and
     therefore has no rights under it.

(the Commissar Order has been referenced previosly)

On July 22 Hitler ordered that

         In view of the vast size of the occupied areas in the East, the
     forces available for establishing security will be sufficient only if all
     resistance is punsihed not be leagal prosecution, of the guility, but by
     the spreading od such terror by the occupying forces as is alone
     appropriate to eradicate every inclination to resist amonst the
     population.

I would think commands such as these would mitigate the guilt of any
trasgression, though I know little of what actually happened, and,
further, I think a judgement should be made by peers, military men, not
civilians.

Well, that's my humble  $0.02.

[email-masked]

Aldo M. Hubert
University of North Carolina at Greensboro
Greensboro NC 27412

OBESA CANTAVIT

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 09:32:01 -0500
From:    "W.C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: A-bomb/Smithsonian

It is wonderful to try and second guess these decisions that were
made half a century ago.  But unless we have our finger on the pulse
of the nation at that time, we will be doing nothing more than
second-guessing.

Who can say what the Japanese people would have done on their homeland
in response to an invasion?  Who can say we would have succeeded in
starving them out?  Who would have guessed that Japanese soldiers would
hole up on Pacific Islands for DECADES after the war in obedience to their
perceived duty?

I sincerely doubt that we 'understood' the Japanese any better by the
war's end than we had at the beginning.  Remember that the kamikazes were
a real big threat at the time of the Okinawa invasion, and there was no
reason to believe that the actions of these people did not reflect
the general willingness of an entire population to die en masse for a
principle.  This would have the double effect of making the war appear
to be a lengthy proposition, and the Japanese people to be as unwilling
as ever to consider surrender.  Not a good outlook for the average
American who had grown weary of the war.

While it is true that we should be magnanimous in victory, that victory
was in no way assured until the surrender.  The war was draining the
American people.  Newspaper accounts of the time seem to reflect a general
attitude to just 'get it over with'.  And as is pointed out in WAR WITHOUT
MERCY, there was still no magnanimity felt for the Japanese people.  Remember,
by their own propaganda, every man, woman and child was to be a combatant.

And finally, any Commander in Chief who does not do his best to prosecute
a war to a rapid conclusion with every power at their disposal can
arguably be guilty of dereliction of duty.

The operative word is 'rapid' and in this case, the impetus was clearly
there.  We were not beating our moral breasts over the casualties that
may be suffered by a population for which we had no empathy.

It is the victory that has given us the opportunity to study the moral
perspective, but time has faded the hatred, so the studies may always
be flawed.

Just my thoughts.

Bill
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 10:21:21 -0400
From:    Wendy Slader <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: A-bomb/Smithsonian

To all of you who replied to my questioning the second bombing at Nagasaki:

....and just when I felt so secure in all of my infinite wisdom....
"POP" goes the ego!

Seriously,  I thank all of you for your thoughts, facts, remembrances, etc.
As I stated earlier, I cannot speak for how I may have felt or thought
had I lived through that period.  Many of you who responded WERE living
at the time and felt the "pulse of the era."
I am relatively young and sometimes, unfortunately, I believe that the
history I am taught may be biased--as may opinions in general.  I can't
dictate the right or wrong of history--I just have a passion for it and
want to learn.  I am impressed beyond words at the knowledge and
intelligence of those of you out there.  Thanks for your thoughts and
humble opinions!

Humbly, youthfully, and still-not-totally-convinced-but-open-minded,
Wendy Slader

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 10:32:44 EST
From:    rick robinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Richard Bong

I am looking for anyone who can answer a question about USAAF
   fighter ace Richard Bong.

An argument has started here at work and I cannot find any of
   my books on Bong.  Someone here has stated that Bong was
   killed when he was shot down by the Japanese while flying
   a <JET FIGHTER???>.

If my memory serves, didn't he fly P-38's?  And somewhere in
   the back of my mind, I thought he survived the war.

Help!!!

===>>> KARAOKE-- Japanese for tone-deaf drunk with a microphone <<<===

Rick Robinson/KD4GNK(TSG/KyANG retired)
Tape Librarian, DOIM -- Fort Knox, Kentucky  40121-5000
[email-masked]/ [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 09:44:00 -0500
From:    "Colin Brace (617)726-5085" <[email-masked]>
Subject: KB1MK de WA1KWA

          Sorry for the latness of my reply, In answer to your query, I
          THINK it's Barry Goldwater K7UGA. Pretty sure I remember reading
          about it in the article in QST when he retired from the senate.

          Another "local angle" - interesting (when you can) to see the
          radio shacks of the various WW2 era ships, here in the
          Charlestown Navy Yard we have the Cassion Young for example, and
          if memory serves, this goes for the Massachusetts in Fall River,
          that much of the equipment in there is from the (then) National
          Radio in Malden. Too bad, the restoration of these radio shacks
          would seem to be a good project for some of the local radio
          clubs. The one in the Cassion Young isn't bad, but if I remember
          correctly, the one in the Massachusetts is in pretty bad shape.
          If nothing else, would make a great Field Day QTH or Special
          Events Station. OW.

          73,
          Colin Brace  WA1KWA

          [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 14:54:06 +0200
From:    John Ausland <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN: GENERAL SHORT

  Oslo, July 7.  Jack McKillop's message about General Short reminds me of a
letter from my father, after he stopped in Hawaii on his way to China in the
summer of 1941 (that is, before the attack on Pearl Harbor).  In brief, he said
"There is too much Saturday night in Hawaii."
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 15:11:13 +0200
From:    John Ausland <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN: WHAT IF HIROSHIMA HAD NOT ENDED THE WAR?

  Oslo, July 7.  I have been reading the messages regarding the destruction of
Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  Since the 4th Division was headed toward the Pacific
for the second phase of the invasion of Japan, I welcomed these events and the
end of the war.  Having survived the fighting in Europe, I figured the odds were
stocked against me if the fighting had continued.
  There is, however, another way to look at this.  The reality is that the bombs
did bring about an end of the war.  Suppose they had not.  Suppose the Japanese
Army had prevailed and Japan had not surrendered at that time.
  Any scenario you write for what would have followed, whether more A-bombs or
invasion, would make pretty unpleasant reading today.
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 11:21:49 -0400
From:    Tom Shirhall <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: A-bomb/Smithsonian

>From the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam:

    "The Moving Finger writes, and having writ

    Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit

    Shall lure it back to cancel half a line

    Nor shall all your Tears wash out a word of it".

Tom Shirhall

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 10:45:35 -0400
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: POL: Uberparteilichkeit

        The Sprint 1994 issue of Military History Quarterly has a short
piece on von Rundstedt written by Caleb Carr.  There is one portion that
bears some relevance to the discussion on von Manstein.

        "Lightning war, however, was not the only new philosophy that took
hold of the German officer corps during the interwar years.  Because of the
political extremism that characterized Weimar Germany, von Seeckt [the
architect of Germany's interwar military forces] and his followers came
to believe that the ultimate fate of the nation rested not with any one
of the volatile political parties of the left or the right that were
jockeying for power but with the army itself:  Germany's safety could
be secured only if the army chose to remain separate and aloof from the
politics.  Thus was born the ethic of Uberparteilichkeit -- literally,
the trait of being above political factionalism.  This became the rule
for German officers during the interwar era, though it conflicted
resoundingly with Prussian tradition.

        "It had, after all, been the philosophical godfather of the
Prussian army, Carl von Clausewitz, who had so forcefully declared a
century earlier that war *is* policy, by different means; and certainly
the elder Moltke had carefully trained his General Staff officers to
take a keen interest in extramilitary affairs, particularly politics.
Prussian officers were always highly professional, to be sure; but the
greatness of the nineteenth-century Prussian system lay in the fact that
this was a narrow professionalism.  The Uberparteilichkeit of von Seeckt
and his officers was therefore not a continuation but profound perversion
of Prussian tradition, in which lay not the salvation but the ultimate
destruction of Germany -- and the transformation of the officer corps
into pawns, not masters.

        "No one saw the potential for such a transformation more clearly
than Adolf Hitler.  By appealing to the innate nationalism and traditionalism
of the German military establishment, and by playing up the dangers posed
by his Communist rivals, Hitler was able to convince the officer corps that
his goals and theirs were the same: the restoration of a strong Germany
according to the old imperial boundaries, along with the revival of the
Great General Staff and the rapid expansion of the German armed forces
along the most progressive lines.  As the 1930s passed, the German officer
corps buried its head ever more determinedly in the sand of military
expansion, snidely dismissing the Nazis even as they assured Hitler's
ultimate success.  They overlooked disturbing signs that Hitler was
beginning to exceed even those limits of behavior that could be rationalized
by Uberparteilichkeit -- that he was, in fact, beginning to consider himself
less the army's partner than its master."
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
  Big Joe: ... And no one is going to be moving that Tiger.
Crap Game: Have you tried to make a deal?
  Big Joe: A deal?  What kind of deal?
Crap Game: A deal deal.  Maybe the guy's a Republican.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 10:52:34 EDT
From:    "Patrick D. Marsden" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Richard Bong

>
> I am looking for anyone who can answer a question about USAAF
>    fighter ace Richard Bong.
>
> An argument has started here at work and I cannot find any of
>    my books on Bong.  Someone here has stated that Bong was
>    killed when he was shot down by the Japanese while flying
>    a <JET FIGHTER???>.
>
> If my memory serves, didn't he fly P-38's?  And somewhere in
>    the back of my mind, I thought he survived the war.
>
> Help!!!
>

If my memory serves, and thats a big IF, I think Bong was killed
in '46 in California while testing the P-80 jet fighter.  I'll look
for something in print to confirm this.

Patrick,

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 07:48:49 -0700
From:    "Office TH325, Extension 3566" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Richard Bong

>From:         rick robinson <[email-masked]>
>Subject:      Richard Bong

>
>I am looking for anyone who can answer a question about USAAF
>   fighter ace Richard Bong.
>
>An argument has started here at work and I cannot find any of
>   my books on Bong.  Someone here has stated that Bong was
>   killed when he was shot down by the Japanese while flying
>   a <JET FIGHTER???>.
>

He was killed in a crash of a jet fighter (P-80 Shooting Star), but it
was in Los Angeles and he was not shot down by the Japanese.

>If my memory serves, didn't he fly P-38's?  And somewhere in
>   the back of my mind, I thought he survived the war.
>

He flew P-38's.  He was killed on August 6, 1945.

John Riegsecker
Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
University of Puget Sound

[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 10:56:33 EDT
From:    Richard Kaplan <[email-masked]>
Subject: GI mail in Italy

This isn't the kind of question I would normally consent to post, but my
department's curiosity has been aroused (normally they're Luddites).

On average, and I expect there to be a wide range of possibilities, how long
did it take a GI to receive and respond to a letter from home.  I didn't speak
to the patron, so I'm establishing certain criteria.

        A. the soldier is in a front line infantry unit in 1944.

        B. the soldier is inclined to write back.

        C. the soldier is healthy (muddy, dirty, fatigued, not hurt).

                                I promise never to post open ended questions
                                like this again.

                                        Richard Kaplan
                                        Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh
                                        Social Sciences Dept.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 10:58:58 EST
From:    rick robinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: To B(omb) or not to b(omb)

I have been catching up on my mail after a two week absence and
   notice (now without some amusement) the intense sentiment
   and division that exists regarding our 'moral' right to
   use the atomic bomb(s) on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

I guess it would be fairly accurate to presume that most of us
   were not around then, so we do not (and can not) truely
   grasp nor appreciate the atmosphere that the decision(s)
   were made in.  Regardless, the decision was made, the deed
   (for good or bad) was done.  The results stand and speak
   for themselves.

I can't help but add this as a postscript--  Harry Truman was
   attributed as saying (and I can't remember where I came
   across this) something to the effect when asked if his
   decision to use the A-bomb bothered him

"Did it bother me?  Well, I tell you, if it would save American
   lives, I would do it without batting an eye.  And besides
   that, I have been waiting very patiently for someone to
   apologize for Pearl Harbor!"  (statement is from memory,
   so any error is mine).
.

===>>> Moral Superiority through Superior Firepower!! <<<===

Rick Robinson/KD4GNK(TSG/KyANG retired)
Tape Librarian, DOIM -- Fort Knox, Kentucky  40121-5000
[email-masked]/ [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 11:03:00 -0400
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Richard Bong

>I am looking for anyone who can answer a question about USAAF
>   fighter ace Richard Bong.
>
>An argument has started here at work and I cannot find any of
>   my books on Bong.  Someone here has stated that Bong was
>   killed when he was shot down by the Japanese while flying
>   a <JET FIGHTER???>.
>
>If my memory serves, didn't he fly P-38's?  And somewhere in
>   the back of my mind, I thought he survived the war.
>

Major Richard I. Bong was killed in an accident while test flying a P-80
Shooting Star jet in August of 1945.  He flew a P-38J in over 200 sorties
and achieved a total of 40 victories.  He was awarded the Congressional
Medal of Honor, the DSC, two Silver Stars, seven DFCs, and 15 Air Medals.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka                                         National Warplane Museum
Cornell University                                 Geneseo, New York
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 10:15:02 CST
From:    "ROBERT ROY(Southern Illinois University)" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Richard Bong

I think MAJ. Bong was killed TESTING a Jet Fighter in the states,around
late 1945..He was not killed in combat.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 11:30:57 EST
From:    rick robinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Bob Stevens

In going through some of my late father's things recently, I came
across a couple of books-- Bob Steven's "And There I Was" and
"More And There I Was"  (this is kinda amusing since the old
man was a tread-head, not a zoomie, like me).

I was wondering if any one knew if there were any more books
by Stevens out there, or if there are more (by others) in the
same vein?  I have tried the local (and Louisville) bookstores,
but most of them keep directing me to the local comic book
stores (hmmmmmmmm).

Thanks--

===>>> Parachutes??  I thought YOU brought the parachutes! <<<===

Rick Robinson/KD4GNK (TSG/KyANG retired)
Tape Librarian, DOIM -- Fort Knox, Kentucky  40121-5000
[email-masked]/ [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 10:07:55 -0500
From:    Stephen L Mcfarland <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Richard Bong

Yes, Bong flew P-38s to down 40 Japanese aircraft.  No, he was not shot
down by the Japanese while flying a jet fighter, but crashed and died in
August 1945 while testing a prototype aircraft (P-80) in California at Muroc.

On Thu, 7 Jul 1994, rick robinson wrote:

> I am looking for anyone who can answer a question about USAAF
>    fighter ace Richard Bong.
>
> An argument has started here at work and I cannot find any of
>    my books on Bong.  Someone here has stated that Bong was
>    killed when he was shot down by the Japanese while flying
>    a <JET FIGHTER???>.
>
> If my memory serves, didn't he fly P-38's?  And somewhere in
>    the back of my mind, I thought he survived the war.
>
> Help!!!
>
>
> ===>>> KARAOKE-- Japanese for tone-deaf drunk with a microphone <<<===
>
> Rick Robinson/KD4GNK(TSG/KyANG retired)
> Tape Librarian, DOIM -- Fort Knox, Kentucky  40121-5000
> [email-masked]/ [email-masked]
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 11:31:20 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Richard Bong

> I am looking for anyone who can answer a question about USAAF
>    fighter ace Richard Bong.
>
> An argument has started here at work and I cannot find any of
>    my books on Bong.  Someone here has stated that Bong was
>    killed when he was shot down by the Japanese while flying
>    a <JET FIGHTER???>.
>
> If my memory serves, didn't he fly P-38's?  And somewhere in
>    the back of my mind, I thought he survived the war.
>
> Help!!!

Richard Bong flew P-38s.

He was killed during a test flight in the United States of a new aircraft.
His loss was overshadowed, however, by the dropping of the first atomic
bomb on Japan.  Richard Bong's death became an "inside story" to the
newspapers.  My mind went blank as to whether the test flight was of a
jet aircraft, but I believe it was... Someone will correct me on this,
I'm sure.  :-)

His brother is still alive and has written two books on Dick.  He lives in
Wisconsin.  The P-38 that serves as a gate guardian in his home town is
also being removed and sent to Duluth, MN where the Air National Guard will
restore it back to pristine condition and return it to display.

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
[email-masked]                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 11:52:39 CST
From:    "ROBERT ROY(Southern Illinois University)" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Bob Stevens

These books are taken from AIR FORCE mag. of the U.S. Air Force Assoc.
very good cartoons of the Air Force.  I have never heard of a third
volume. I am a member of AFA.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 10:00:52 -800
From:    Jim Curry <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Richard Bong

 Richard Bong was killed flying a jet fighter--but not in combat.  The
plane was a Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star,and Bong was then serving as a
test pilot.  I believe Bong's fatal accident occurred in August 1945.
It was very sad, but not uncommon, for an ace to survive years of combat
only to die in some plane crash in the States.
Jim Curry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 12:20:15 -0500
From:    John Lundstrom <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Richard Bong

Major Richard Bong was killed on 6 August 1945 at Muroc Field in California
while testing the Lockheed P-80. His fuel pump failed on take off, and he
crashed before he could parachute from the jet.
BTW his brother Carl Bong has just written a new biography of him. If anyone
is interested, I'll get details as to publisher and price.
                        John B. Lundstrom, Milwaukee Public Museum

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 18:26:34 -0700
From:    Ed Kettler <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Bob Stevens

AS I recall, there was another volume entitled " and there I was, Flat on
my Back".  You might try some of the aviation stores, like Sporty's Pilot
Shop in Batavia OH, or William Byrd Aviation Books in Torrance, CA.

Ed

Ed Kettler                                       [email-masked]

On Thu, 7 Jul 1994, rick robinson wrote:

> In going through some of my late father's things recently, I came
> across a couple of books-- Bob Steven's "And There I Was" and
> "More And There I Was"  (this is kinda amusing since the old
> man was a tread-head, not a zoomie, like me).
>
> I was wondering if any one knew if there were any more books
> by Stevens out there, or if there are more (by others) in the
> same vein?  I have tried the local (and Louisville) bookstores,
> but most of them keep directing me to the local comic book
> stores (hmmmmmmmm).
>
> Thanks--
>
>
> ===>>> Parachutes??  I thought YOU brought the parachutes! <<<===
>
> Rick Robinson/KD4GNK (TSG/KyANG retired)
> Tape Librarian, DOIM -- Fort Knox, Kentucky  40121-5000
> [email-masked]/ [email-masked]
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 15:16:42 -0500
From:    "W.C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Bong revisited

I believe it was in Jablonski's AIRWAR where I read that
Bong was not killed 'testing' the F-80, but was actually
hot-dogging with a low-level barrel roll when the plane
hit the ground.  It would not be a surprise, since Bong
also was one of the folks who 'looped' the Golden Gate
Bridge while at Hamilton Field.

Can anybody verify the cause of the crash?

Bill
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 20:41:44 -0500
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Work in progress

I am currently working on:

     A simple Guadalcanal game I've had for 15 years
       (I call it "Guadalcanal Gazoo.")

     A Battle of Moscow, 1941, game.  (You should see my
       ILLs (InterLibrary Loans) from the Univ. of Ill.!)

     TWO "corps level" Russian Front games.  They have a
       different focus from STURM NACH OSTEN.  One is a
       folio-type successor to old STALINGRAD -- Tell
       George( Phillies)!  :-)
         The other is ... what I've been raving about for
       the past two years.  :-)

     My famous WWII naval miniatures rules.

     Model ships ...  :-)

     LOTS of other stuff!  :-)

This "pre-retirement" could be as profitable as it is fun!

Lou Coatney
626 Western Ave.
Macomb, IL  61455
309/836-1447 (and I am *not* returning long-distance calls,
  anymore!  :-)  )

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 10:14:03 -0400
From:    Walter O'Hara <[email-masked]>
Subject: WWII-L Digest?  Possible?

The subject sez it all.  Is it possible to set digest for WWII-L?  How
does one do it?  Pardon this poor novice...

Walt O'Hara
[email-masked]
[email-masked]
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 21:40:58 -0600
From:    JOHN WRIGHT <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Richard Bong

Several years ago I met a relative of Major Bong who was at that
writing a book on the Major.  I am soory to say that I do not
know if the book was ever published.  The Major was from
Wisconsin and did in fact survive to return to the states.
His "Kills" were indeed in a P-38, but he was killed in the crash
of one of the early jet fighter aircraft--in California, if memory
serves.  The is an airfield in Wisconsin near Sparta I believe
that was named Bong Field.  Used mosly by reserve and guard units
although there was a lot of staging operations there for Desert
Storm.  For years a fin oil painting of Major Bong with a P-38
hung in the Officers club at Truax Field (now closed) in Madison.
I believe that the painting was moved to the officers club
at Ft McCoy.  I have not been there for several years, but
perhaps someone on the list has been there more recenly and can
comment on whether the painting is still there.

-----------------------------original stuff below----------------
I am looking for anyone who can answer a question about USAAF
   fighter ace Richard Bong.

An argument has started here at work and I cannot find any of
   my books on Bong.  Someone here has stated that Bong was
   killed when he was shot down by the Japanese while flying
   a <JET FIGHTER???>.

If my memory serves, didn't he fly P-38's?  And somewhere in
   the back of my mind, I thought he survived the war.

Help!!!

===>>> KARAOKE-- Japanese for tone-deaf drunk with a microphone <<<===

Rick Robinson/KD4GNK(TSG/KyANG retired)
Tape Librarian, DOIM -- Fort Knox, Kentucky  40121-5000
[email-masked]/ [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 22:01:08 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: ARC: Battle of the Bulge Green Book at byrd.

The Army "Green Book" The Ardennes: Battle of the Bulge is being uploaded
to byrd.mu.wvnet.edu in directory:
/pub/history/military/wwii/Battle.of.Bulge/Green.Book

23 of the 25 Chapters are there now and the balance should be ready in
a day or two.

Naval hysterian should check out directory
/pub/history/military/USN

where we are storing operational histories of US combatants (and some
of the stranger non-combatants.)

Worth a look as well is
/pub/history/military/civil_war_usa/C.S.N.

where you can find the specs and operational histories of the Confederate
States men-of-war. Look up "Planter", absolutely my favorite!

The USN directory will continue to expand, and the CSN directory will
pick up if the the South rises again ;-).

Larry J

[email-masked]; Co-Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU (Historical docs)
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 Jul 1994 20:05:15 -0700
From:    "Office TH325, Extension 3566" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Bong revisited

>From:         "W.C. (RUSTY) DIVENS" <[email-masked]>
>Subject:      Bong revisited
>To:           Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <[email-masked]>
>
>I believe it was in Jablonski's AIRWAR where I read that
>Bong was not killed 'testing' the F-80, but was actually
>hot-dogging with a low-level barrel roll when the plane
>hit the ground.  It would not be a surprise, since Bong
>also was one of the folks who 'looped' the Golden Gate
>Bridge while at Hamilton Field.

George Kenny, in "General Kenney Reports", begins the book with that
story.  He also says that Bong was flying down Market Street waving at
the stenographic help.  In addition, a woman in Oakland complained that
he had knocked her washing from the clothsline.

John Riegsecker
Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
University of Puget Sound

[email-masked]

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 6 Jul 1994 to 7 Jul 1994
***********************************************