Subject: WWII-L Digest - 26 Aug 1994 to 27 Aug 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 28 Aug 1994 00:00:24 -0400

There are 15 messages totalling 480 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Information
  2. MEDIA:Commandos Reinterred - Operation RIMAU
  3. 50TH: LIBERATION OF PARIS
  4. 50TH: FRENCH-AMERICAN MILITARY RELATIONS
  5. 50TH: 4TH DIVISION ROLE IN LIBERATION OF PARIS
  6. INF: 50 Years Ago - 28-AUG-1944
  7. Gen. Choltitz refuses Hitler (3)
  8. Media:Operation RIMAU
  9. GEN: CHURCHILL, CO
 10. INFO: AGS
 11. GEN: Churchill, Conventry, Ultra (Backround info wanted
 12. WEAP: Japanese Interwar CV Air Group Compositions
 13. WEAP:German H-Class BBs

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Date:    Sat, 27 Aug 1994 00:27:56 EDT
From:    John Sloan <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Information

Charles is asking about the 79th Inf Div. Much preliminary information can be
obtained from Shelby Stanton's fine _Order of Battle of the U. S. Army WWII.
 I note that the 79th had the 313th, 314th, and 315th Infantry regiments. The
first two landed in France attached to 45th Infantry Div and the last
attached to 14th Armored Div.  But Charles, was your father in an infantry
regiment or one of the other units?  Anyway most of the smaller units are
found in Shelby's book as well.
 From there one could go to a major library and check with the interlibrary
computer to see if a unit history exists.
Shelby says the 79th was activated 15 Jun of 42 at Camp Pickett Va. went to
Tenn on maneuvers in Mar 43, then to Camp Young Calif on 17 Aug for desert
training. Left from Cp myles Standish, Mass on 31 March 44 for Boston.
arrived England in Apri land then in France on 14 June. The full list of
units takes a page.

hope this helps

john sloan

[email-masked]

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Date:    Sat, 27 Aug 1994 00:48:02 -0400
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Commandos Reinterred - Operation RIMAU

Jim Irwin sent the following out today:

 >:FUNERAL SET FOR WWII COMMANDOS
 >
 >   SINGAPORE, Aug. 24  -- The Australian High Commission said
 >Wednesday that the recently discovered remains of two officers killed
 >in a legendary World War II commando raid nearly 50 years ago will be
 >buried Saturday at the Kranji War Cemetary in Singapore.
 >  Material deleted....

Does anyone have additional information on this "legendary World
War II commando raid?"
-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Operation RIMAU

This operation was carried out by an Special Operations Executive team of
22 men led by British Lt-Col Ivan Lyon in October 1944.  It was an attack
on shipping in Singapore harbor using one-man electrically powered
submersible boats called "Sleeping Beauties".  The plan was to enter the
harbor with these boats and attach limpet mines to ships therein.

The RIMAU party was transported to the general area aboard the mine-laying
submarine HMS _Porpoise_.  There they took over a local junk (_Mustika_)
which was used to make the final approach to Singapore.  On October 6 they
were discovered by a police launch and lost the element of surprise.  The
party then retreated to a base they had set up on a nearby island, taking
casualties along the way, including the death of Lyon.  The Japanese
discovered this base on November 4 and the remaining men fought their way
south, from island to island.  11 were eventually taken prisoner, although
one of these died soon after.  The remaining 10 captives were beheaded by
the Japanese on July 7 1945.

According to the sources I am using (see below for details) the two men
mentioned in the news story were probably among those who were killed
during the retreat from Singapore or from the island base. I speculate they
were buried hastily by their comrades, hence the long delay in recovering
their bodies.

My main source is _Royal Australian Navy, 1942-1945_ by G.Hemron Gill, one
of Australia's official histories of WW II.  The relevant passages are on
pgs 543-546 and pgs 691-692.  The footnotes mention other sources which I
can send if someone indicates interest.  Stephen Roskill in his _The War at
Sea_ (Vol III - part 1) also mentions the incident in a brief paragraph on
pg 228-229.

Of related interest is a prior raid on Singapore led by Lyon in late
September 1943 (operation JAYWICK).  This operation is described in detail
in Gill and gets a page in Roskill.  In this case, the raiding party sailed
from Australia to Singapore in a Japanese fishing boat  seized in 1942.
There they attacked shipping in the harbor using  two-man paddled
canoes.  This attack sank two, maybe three ships.  The JAYWICK team
successfully returned to Australia on the 19th of October after a 41 day
cruise.

Does anyone know if RIMAU has any particular significance as a code name??

John Meierhoffer
[email-masked]
Albany NY

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Date:    Sat, 27 Aug 1994 13:48:07 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Subject: 50TH: LIBERATION OF PARIS

  August 27, 1994

  I have read with interest the messages regarding the commemoration of the
liberation of Paris and particularly Eric Fenster's eye-witness account of the
ceremonies.  I saw these here on French TV5, which we get by cable.  Again I was
impressed, as with the winter Olympics in Albertsville, with the French ability
to put on a good show.  The fireworks were particularly spectacular.
  I also wanted to see the march down the Champs yesterday, but evidently TV5
decided it had devoted enough time to the liberation and did not carry it.  I
was particularly interested in this, because August 26, 1944 was even more
exciting than the day we entered Paris.
  As I described in a long letter to my parents, I happened to be in the Place
de la Concorde when De Gaulle walked by.  Shortly after he passed, someone (we
will never know who) fired a gun, and all hell broke loose.  Everyone with a
gun, and that was most males, started firing wildly at the buildings around the
Place.  I have often wondered how many casualties there were, and TV5 said there
were three hundred.  It did not say, however, how many were killed.  It was
truly and insane scene.
  That night the drama continued.  A dance in the town square at Choisy-le-Roi,
where I was, was interrupted by a German air force unit bombing an area not far
away.  This culminated for me in a weird episode, in which some FFI mistook me
for a German pilot who had parachuted from a damaged plane.  (The bombing
caused quite a bit of damage and hundreds of casualties.  The latter were
at least partly due to the fact that Parisians were acting like the war was
over, with lights blazing all over the city.)
  I was glad to get out Paris alive the next day.
  For me, the real heros of the liberation of Paris was General von Choltitz
and Gen. Speidel.  Von Choltitz did not carry out Hitler's orders to destroy
Paris.  Speidel did not carry out orders to fire V2s into Paris.  Had either of
these orders been carried out, the liberation was have been a much less happy
event.
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 27 Aug 1994 15:41:24 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Subject: 50TH: FRENCH-AMERICAN MILITARY RELATIONS

  August 27, 1994
  I hope I am not boring everyone with all these Paris liberation anecdotes, but
those few days produced quite a few.  There are two that demonstrate the tension
between French and American generals.
  General Barton, who commanded the 4th Infantry Division, visited General
Leclerc, who commanded the French 2nd Armored, to coordinate with him.  He found
Leclerc eating lunch.  Leclerc came out of where he was eating, napkin in hand,
evidently irritated at being interrupted.  (This is according to an account later
by Barton.)  When Barton said he wanted to coordinate with him, Leclerc
suggested he go to the French military command post.  When Barton, annoyed,
commented that he was not in Paris because he wanted to be, Leclerc replied that
they were both soldiers and took orders.
  When General Gerow, who commanded the Vth Corps which included the French 2nd
Armored and the 4th, left Paris, he sent a message to General Juin, De Gaulle's
Chief of Staff.  He noted that he was leaving Paris and was turning over
responsibility for the city to the French.  Juin replied that they had always
been in charge in Paris.
  With exchanges like this, it is small wonder that relations with the French
military after the war left something to be desired.  This led in the end to De
Gaulle in 1966 expelling American forces from France, an event that ruined what
little prospect there had been for a nonnuclear defense by NATO of the
continent.  (This, however, is another story.)
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 27 Aug 1994 14:09:38 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Subject: 50TH: 4TH DIVISION ROLE IN LIBERATION OF PARIS

  August 27, 1994
  I have noted several messages which refer to US vets criticizing the French
failure to give us more credit for helping with the liberation of Paris.  Did
anyone by any chance record this?  I would be curious as to who the vets were.
  Let me give you a little background.  As I have said before, it has always
been a sore point with 4th Division vets that we never got the French
fourragere, even though other divisions which participated in D-Day did.  It was
generally assumed that this was because the French did not want to credit us for
August 25 in Paris.  (I have tried to find out why only some divisions got this
award but without success.)
   As I said before, I raised his question in an IHT article in 1992 but got no
response from the French.  (On the other hand, the Veteran Affairs Minister did
comment shortly after the article appeared about another question I raised,
whether the Germans would be invited to the 1994 D-Day events - with a no.)
  There was a heated discussion of all this at the 1993 4th Division Association
reunion.  Most speakers were particularly angry about the failure to note our
role in Paris.  I pointed out that it would be counterproductive to base any
claim on these events, since the French did not agree among themselves as to who
should get the credit, the FFI or the military.  I maintained that any claim for
recognition should be based on our role in Normandy, about which there was no
dispute.
   In the subsequent steps (which I will not go into), the request for
recognition was based on Paris, and nothing came of this.  Perhaps this will
help you understand why those vets on TV were so heated.
   Some of you will wonder why there is so much feeling about these events,
which took place fifty years ago.  It is simply that nothing is as important to
a veteran than that his unit should get due credit for the actions that
it took part in.
   Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 27 Aug 1994 06:56:48 -0700
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 28-AUG-1944

On 28-AUG-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Northern France - The Canadian II Corps expands its bridgehead towards Rouen.
The British XXX Corps (2nd Army) crosses the Seine. Further south the US XV
Corps further widens its bridgehead at Mantes-Gassicourt. The French 2nd
Armoured Division and US 4th Division, leave Paris and advance towards the
northeast. The US XX Corps (3rd Army) is approaching Rheims and in Brittany
the VIII Corps continues the siege of Brest.

Southern France - The French II Corps is advancing along the west bank of the
Rhone. The US VI Corps, aiming at linking up with the Normandy invasion
forces, is moving north along a line from Lyons towards Beaume and Dijon. The
US 45th Division advances towards Lyons. The Germans in Toulon surrender to
the French 9th Colonial Division. The German garrison in Marseilles also
surrenders.

Eastern Front - In Rumania, the 2nd Ukraine Front penetrates into Transylvania
across the Oituz Pass in the Carpathians, threatening Hungary. The 3rd Ukraine
Front takes Braila.

Italian Front - The 8th Indian Division captures Tigliano, north of
Pontassieve. The British 8th Army continues advancing towards the Gothic line.

Foreign Affairs
---------------
Hungary - A new government, led by General Lakatos, takes office. They
announce they are ready to negotiate with the Russians.

Koenig Rules Paris - Control of Paris has been turned over to Maj. Gen.
Joseph-Pierre Koenig, as military commander. Koenig moves to end disorder by
reorganizing the French Forces of the Interior. Many of its members are not in
uniform and are roaming the streets causing confusion. Allied trucks begin
bringing food into the city and rationing is imposed.

The Homefront
-------------
Congressional Medals Awarded - The Army has announced that the Congressional
Medal of Honor has been awarded to Private William J. Johnston, 26, Colchester,
Conn. and to Sgt. Jesse R. Drowley, 24, Luzerne, Mich. Johnston manned a
machine gun for 24 hours without relief on the Anzio beachhead. Drowley
rescued three companions wounded on Bougainville Island and then guided a tank
against a Japanese pillbox holding up the American advance. Both men were
seriously wounded in these actions.

Nelson Wins All-American Title - Byron Nelson, Toledo, has won the
All-American golf championship at the Tam O'Shanter club, Chicago and takes
the $13,462 prize in war bonds.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 27 Aug 1994 12:05:36 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Gen. Choltitz refuses Hitler

Hello, Alan!

I think I can answer your question about General von Choltitz.

He was not tried for war crimes, as he was a soldier. He was
arrested, however, and detained for some three years for questioning
and possible involvement in war crimes, but was found innocent.

    He died in 1967 in Baden-Baden, West Germany.

    von Choltitz received his Knight's Cross for action during the
Dutch campaign of 1940.

    If you want more, I can supply his entire military career,
including commands, dates of command, and decorations.

Please advise.

I know I saw the same show as you. The one thing I really objected to
in that presentation was the statement that "General von Choltitz had
leveled other cites in Occupied Europe". That is totally false, and
your reference to the Swedish, which is true, was completely
overlooked in the presentation of that documentary. The Swedish
official was the Consul-General Nordling. Not one word was mentioned
about his role in the fall or liberation of Paris.

    Hope all this helps. If you have any other questions, please
don't hesitate to ask.

        Terry

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Date:    Sat, 27 Aug 1994 14:18:00 -0500
From:    Colin Brace <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Media:Operation RIMAU

          Wasn't there was an Austrialian film about 10 years ago about
          Operation JAYWICK? As mentioned in John Meirhoffer's previous post.
          I can't for the life of me remember the name, but it was a good
          film.

          Colin Brace WA1KWA

          [email-masked],harvard.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 27 Aug 1994 14:03:58 CDT
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: CHURCHILL, CO

I believe the book club edition of "Bodyguard of Lies" is in two volumes.
Personally, I have some trouble with the book. At one point Cave-Brown refers
to the SIS-NKVD agreement of December 1942, footnoting it to Alexander
Cadogan's memoirs. The noted pages in Cadogan refer appropriately to the
Scripps mission to Moscow at that date, but as I recall say nothing about
any specific intelligence pact. Does anyone have any info on this?

Henry Sirotin
Dept. Geography, Hunter College/CUNY
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 27 Aug 1994 14:17:46 CDT
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INFO: AGS

Dear Derek,

I have seen at least one publication of an "Allied Geographical Section"
assigned to MacArthur's South West Pacific Command. It was a small
handbook on Philippine geography down to the tactical level, with a number
something like 54C, which suggests it was part of a much larger series
covering all or most of the Philippines, broken down by sector (the number)
and, possibly, quadrants (A, B, C, D) within each sector. It appeared to have
been locally produced in the command. I've never run a full search of
US sources for other materials, but could now, if you can do the same in
Australia. I'd be very curious as to where you came across the reference.

Henry Sirotin
Department of Geology and Geography, Hunter College
City University of New York

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 27 Aug 1994 14:50:45 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: Churchill, Conventry, Ultra (Backround info wanted

A MAN CALLED INTREPID: The biography of Sir William Stevenson, by
        William Stevenson (no relation) is almost comical in its
        inaccuracies, exaggerations, and half-truths.
A much more accurate account of Sir William Stevenson's activities
is in the book, THE QUIET CANADIAN. Includes some fascinating, and
factual details of British Security Co-ordination, based in New York
City, first as a counter-espionage and counter-propaganda agency, and
later assistance to the new fledgling Office of Strategic Services.

--

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Date:    Sat, 27 Aug 1994 14:53:02 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Gen. Choltitz refuses Hitler

There's a good account of Gen. von Cholitz's efforts to prevent the wholesale
destruction of Paris by the Germans, in the book, IS PARIS BURNING. It was
also made into a movie.

--

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Date:    Sat, 27 Aug 1994 19:21:25 EST
From:    "CARL WERNKE (TCWERNC@VCCSCENT)" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Japanese Interwar CV Air Group Compositions

 X-To: [email-masked]
 To: Multiple recipients of list WWII-L([email-masked]

 Mark A.Campbell's Thu, 5 May 1994 21:17:20-0400 indicated that he was looking
for information on the precise composition of Japanese Carrier Air Groups.---
 I recommend : AIRCRAFT CARRIERS: A Graphic History of Carrier Aviation and Its
 Influence On World Events, by Norman Polmar, in collaboration with General
 Minoru Genda, Japanese Air Self-Defence Force, Doubleday & Company, Inc., New
 York, 1969. Recommend pages 132-135.
 Hope this is not too late---"Better late than never," (in this case anyway).
 I was on vacation to Oregon from May 25 through Aug 10 from Tidewater
 Community College, Portsmouth, VA.

 Carl Wernke
 [email-masked]

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Date:    Sat, 27 Aug 1994 21:04:45 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Gen. Choltitz refuses Hitler

Professor Moore said,...

>He was not tried for war crimes, as he was a soldier. He was
>arrested, however, and detained for some three years for questioning
>and possible involvement in war crimes, but was found innocent.

Thanks Terry,... I had basically wondered if he was treated with any
grace due to his apparent show of it. Then again, I'd wondered if
he might have had a sordid past, as many did.

Amicably, Alan

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Wild, LAN Mgr.  Father of 1.8815          Voice:          (401) 792-2611
ACC - Lippitt - URI  American Legion Post 102. FAX:            (401) 792-5479
Kingston, RI  02881  NRA Life Member           BITNET:           AWild@URIACC
                                               Internet: [email-masked]

For those who understand, music is the only real art form.
                                                 - pretentious tee shirt ;-)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Date:    Sat, 27 Aug 1994 23:38:28 EST
From:    "CARL WERNKE (TCWERNC@VCCSCENT)" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP:German H-Class BBs

 To: Multiple recipients of list WWII-L([email-masked])
 In-Reply-To: ([email-masked]);from "Carl Wernke" at
                                                      at May 11, 94 6:01 PM

 German "H-Class" battleships that were planned, but never built. This class
 would have produced the largest warships in the world; even larger than
 today's ENTERPRISE and  NIMITZ class nuclear-powered aircraft carriers.

 By 1936 Germany began construction of two state-of-the art capital ships,
 battleship "F" and "G", which became BISMARCK and TIRPITZ.

    BISMARCK Gunnery.  Shell weight : (lbs)
                       Armor Piercing (AP)  1,763
                       Semi-Armor Piercing  1,763
                       High Explosive (HE)  1,763

  Notice the above lists the weight of BISMARCK's shells as the same 1,763
  pounds. In the case of the American Iowa class, for comparison, the
  armor-piercing shell is 42% heavier than the high-explosive shell
  (2,700 pounds vs 1,900). * Why are all BISMARCK's shells the same weight? *

  Information obtained from [email-masked] (Larry & Kim Jewell).
  Message-Id: ([email-masked]) Wed, 11 May 94 18:14:35
                                                                      -0500

  Carl Wernke
  [email-masked]

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End of WWII-L Digest - 26 Aug 1994 to 27 Aug 1994
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