Subject: WWII-L Digest - 30 Aug 1994 to 31 Aug 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 1994 00:00:19 -0400

There are 42 messages totalling 1573 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. FW: [INF] USAAF 30 AUG 44 (2)
  2. Importance of due credit.
  3. NONE
  4. WEAP: Montana Class (was German "H-Class" battleships) (6)
  5. INF: USN Chronology 08-31-94
  6. INF: 50 Years Ago - 01-SEP-1944
  7. [INF] USAAF 31 AUG 44 (4)
  8. ADMIN: PLEASE READ
  9. US Marine Pubs (3)
 10. U.S. "war plans" for the Pacific
 11. Camp Kilmer (3)
 12. WWII Torpedo Destruction Figures (2)
 13. Could the Luftwaffe have bombed the U.S.? (2)
 14. FW: GEN: MAINLY ABOUT THE
 15. [Weap] Montana class BBs (3)
 16. 50TH: A VISIT IN 1992 TO CHOISY-LE-ROI
 17. HOMEFRONT- Japanese
 18. Addr: James Jones
 19. Operations Jaywick and Rimau (was RE: Attack Force Z)
 20. GEN: NORWEGIAN RESISTANCE DURING WWII
 21. Sampson AFB, NY
 22. [INF] USAAF 1 SEP 44
 23. INFO WANTED: 309TH AT
 24. WEAP: MONTANA CLAS
 25. US MARINE PUBS

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 30 Aug 1994 22:47:25 PDT
From:    Jim Brady <[email-masked]>
Subject: FW: [INF] USAAF 30 AUG 44

---------------Original Message---------------
COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
WEDNESDAY, 30 AUGUST 1944
 [deletions]

 STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Three missions are flown.
  Mission 590: 107 of 159 B-17s and 108 of 145 B-24s dispatched hit 8
V-weapon sites in the Pas de Calais area of France; one wing uses GH and H2X
methods; 22 bombers are damaged. Escort is provided by 16 of 16 P-51s without
loss.
----------End of Original Message----------

The raids on the V-weapons sites have been pretty heavy lately. Exactly how many
rocket sites were there (either at one time or all together), I wonder? Has anyone
seen anything as to the effectiveness of the attacks on these targets? Lastly, was
each site a "one-shot" launch pad, or could these bases launch more than one
rocket simultaneously?

Thanks,

-- Jim Brady

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 30 Aug 1994 23:14:51 PDT
From:    Jim Brady <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Importance of due credit.

Ron,

  Thanks VERY much for weighing in with this. I wrote a similar argument, slightly
less diplomatic, that also made the point that, considering the sheer numbers of
soldiers involved, Coatney would have to concede that homosexuals also lost loved
ones and even their own lives fighting in uniform. I didn't send it, because I have
encountered Coatney before beating up on my generation (60s kids had no sense
of duty, work ethic, etc. etc.) and shot back then. I've also asked Joe Barone, list
owner, to straighten him out.

I began to think I was the only one complaining. I'm happy to see those expressions
 countered.  Sheesh! Sometimes, *some* of these WWII guys start to sound an
awful lot like that guy with the mustache they went over to beat!

Yours,

Jim Brady
---------------Original Message---------------
>John Ausland makes a good point.  After you've lost friends,
>  family, whatever, ... fighting for something, you want to
>  be sure that due credit is awarded.

I especially agree when it seems that something as inane as politics is the
device that keeps histical credit from being delivered.

>The outrage at Clinton's election and attempt to impose
>  homosexuality on the services was in part a sense of
>  national ingratitude and betrayal felt by national-security-
>  serving people who had won the Cold War for the Country only
>  to be rewarded with ...  :-I

I don't want to start any flame wars but since Mr. Coatney felt obligated
to express his opinions, I just wanted to counter that this non-WWII
related thread (hint) of his can be easily rebuked by the opposing opinions
of many combat and non-combat veterans that I have met and talked with.  I
do not except his use of the verbeage related to President Clintons
election and his attempt to allow U.S. CITIZENS to assist in the defense of
this nation and its freedoms as a national betrayal.  If Mr. Coatney
really feel the need to express his political views, isn't there a
political discussion board that would truely be a more appropriate place to
toss mud.

Note to the list...  I am sorry I wasted your time with this thread but I
did feel obligated to respond in a public forum.  Any further discussion on
this thread will be off-line (I promise).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka                                         National Warplane Museum
Cornell University                                 Geneseo, New York
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

----------End of Original Message----------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 31 Aug 1994 01:10:09 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: NONE

Hadassah, sholom. Is it possible that the man Celler you are looking for is
former and late Congressman Emanual Celler from New York? Given his
proclivities and politics, it is quite possible that it is he you are looking
for. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 31 Aug 1994 00:14:34 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: Montana Class (was German "H-Class" battleships)

>From "BATTLESHIPS, United States Battleships in World War II", by
Dulin and Garzke, Naval Institute Press.

But *I* get credit for any typos!

Begin quote.

Summary.  The Montana-class design provided for the most powerful
armament ever given an American captial ship (other than a few
conceptual studies with 18-inch guns) combined with unprecedentedly
extensive and effective protection against all forms of attack.

The machinery arrangement, dictated by the desire for extensive
subdivision and isolation of components, suffered from a fundamental
design deficiency; it was arranged in two groups, and boilers in one
group could not supply steam to turbines in the other.  Although the
extreme subdivision diminished the possibility of losing all boilers
in any one group, this deficiency remained a weakness in what was
otherwise a very damage-resistant and flexible arrangement.

These ships were admirably suited to the classic battleship mission,
but their 28-knot speed was marginal for fast carrier task force
operations, and soon would have relegated them to the reserve fleet in
peacetime, as it did all U.S. battleships other than the Iowa-class.
The powerful armament was admirably suited for shore bombardment,
where speed was not esssential.

The Montana-class battleships were the most formidable capital ships
projected by any nation during World War II.  The Japanese ships, the
Yamato and Musashi, with 18.1-inch guns, were more powerful, but the
Montana, with more numerous main-battery guns of comparable power,
would have essentially matched the power of the Japanese ships, and
superior U.S. fire-control systems would have increased the
effectiveness of her guns.  In every regard except speed, the
Montana-class ships would have been at least the equal of any other
capital ship projected for construction during World War II.

End quote.

Following are the names and numbers of the ships authorized for
construction on 19 July 1940, and formally cancelled on 21 July 1943.

Montana, BB-67;  Ohio, BB-68;  Maine, BB-69;  New Hampshire, BB-70;
Louisiana, BB-71.

Stats for the Montana:

Displacement
60,500 tons Standard
70,500 tons Full Load

Dimensions
925' Length overall
890' Waterline length
121'2" Maximum beam
36'1.937" Maximum draft @ 68,317 tons

Armament (June 1942 design)
Twelve 16-inch/50 caliber guns
Twenty 5-inch/54 caliber guns
Thirty-two 40mm/56 caliber guns
Twenty 20mm/70 caliber machine guns

Armor protection
Immunity zone from 18,000 to 31,000 yards (Citadel)
              for U.S. 16"/45 firing 2,700 lb. shell, and
              from 16,500 to 34,500 yards for 16"/45 2,240 lb. shell

Amidships
Belt armor 16.1" tapered to 10.2" on 1" STS, inclined 19 degrees
Inner belt armor 7.2" tapered to 1" inclined 10 degrees

Deck armor (three decks)
Centerline Total 9.92"
Outboard  Total 10.35"

Barbette armor
18" - 19.5" - 21.3"

Turrett armor
Face plates 18.0" + 4.5"
Sides 10.0"
Back plates 12.0"
Roof plates 9.15"

Conning tower armor
Sides 18.0"
Roof plates 7.75"
Bottom plates 4.0"
Communications tube 16.0"

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA 22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 31 Aug 1994 01:38:35 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 08-31-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
08/31 Thu. Aircraft from carrier task group (Rear Adm. R. E. Davison)
           commence 3-day attack on Iwo Jima and the Bonin Islands.
           Bombardment by cruisers and destroyers on 1 and 2 September
           augments air strikes.
           Submarine REDFIN (SS-272) lands supplies and evacuates
certain
           personnel from Palawan Island, P. I.
            Japanese naval vessel sunk:
             Minelayer SHIRATAKA, by submarine SEALION (SS-315), Luzon
              Strait, Philippine Islands area,
              21 d. 05'N., 121 d. 26'E.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 31 Aug 1994 12:05:25 CET
From:    "LTC Donnell, Doug" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Montana Class (was German "H-Class" battleships)

I've enjoyed the postings on the Montana class battleships -- I must honestly
admit that until it came up on the list I had never realized that a follow
on design to the Iowa class had ever been approved (but then again, I AM in
the Air Force). . .

What was the actual reason for cancelling the project?  In "The Iowa Class
Battleships" by Malcolm Muir it states "That debacle [the fall of France]
and the fear that England jwould go down next -- galvanised the legislature
to rush through on 19 July 1940 the "two ocean navy" bill.  It authorized
the construction of the five slow giants of the "Montana" class plus two
more "Iowas": the Illinois (BB65) and the Kentucky (BB66).

[stuff omitted]

Not one of these battleships of the "two ocean navy" was ever completed.
The "Montanas", suspended on 20 May 1942 after the Coral Sea action, were
cancelled 21 July 1943.

My personal conclusion is that emphasis (materials, etc) was shifted to
aircraft carriers and the fact that the Montanas couldn't keep up with
a carrier battle group probably did them in.  But, still, it seems somewhat
peculiar that such a formidable gun platform would have been cancelled when
there still lay ahead the island hopping push toward Japan that required
off shore firepower to support landing operations.

Any comments????
                                  Doug Donnell

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 31 Aug 1994 04:42:32 -0700
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 01-SEP-1944

On 01-SEP-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Northern France - General Patton's 3rd Army liberates Verdun, scene of the
heroic French stand under Marshal Petain in the last war. The British I Corps
are heading towards Le Havre after crossing the Seine. The Canadian II Corps
reaches Dieppe. Two divisions of the British XXX Corps, the 11th Armoured and
the Guards Division, reach Arras. In the US XIX and V Corps sector, the
Americans advance rapidly towards St Quientin and Cambrai. On the east end of
the Allied advance the US XX Corps (3rd Army) is advancing towards Metz.

Southern France - Units of the VI Corps are approaching Lyons.

Eastern Front - The Red Army reaches the Bulgarian frontier at Giurgiu, on the
Danube.

Italian Front - The US IV Corps (5th Army) begins to pursue the Germans across
the Arno. The Canadian I and British V Corps throw all their forces into an
attack on the Gothic line and reach Tomba di Pesaro.

Balkans - As the Germans prepare to evacuate the Aegean and Ionian islands as
well as part of Greece, British and US air forces pound the main railway line
that will be used for the evacuation.

Naval Dispatches
----------------
Submarine NARWHAL (SS-167) lands men and supplies on the east coast of Luzon,
P.I.

Minesweeper YMS-21 sunk by mine, Southern France area.

Foreign Affairs
---------------
Bulgaria - Prime Minister Begrianov resigns and is replaced by Constantine
Muraviev. Since the signing of the Tripartite Pact (1-MAR-1941), Bulgaria has
occupied Yugoslav and Greek territory and is consequently at war with Great
Britain and the United States, though it has declared its own neutrality with
Russia. Now faced with the threat of Russian occupation Muraviev, asks for
support from the British and the Americans. But he does not get it.

The Homefront
-------------
No Draft For Older Men - The Selective Service Bureau tells the Senate and
House Military Affairs Committee that few men beyond the age of 26 will be
drafted for the rest of 1944 barring millitary reverses.

Sibelius Manuscripts Destroyed - Helsinki reports that manuscripts of Jean
Sibelius, Finnish composer, were destroyed during and Allied bombing raid on
Leipzig, Germany.

Rudy Vallees Reconciled - Rudy Vallee and Bette Jane Greer Vallee have moved
back in together in Hollywood, therby annulling an interlocutory decree
granted her on July 27th.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 31 Aug 1994 08:32:25 EST
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: WEAP: Montana Class (was German "H-Class" battleships)

Doug Donnell's suggestion that the Montana class ships would have
been useful as fire-support ships reminded me that every invasion
account that I have read, has left me with the impression that pre-
invasion bombardment was of little use.  There always seems to be
some assertion that 'despite all those shells their bunkers were still
untouched, etc.'  I don't doubt that close in fire support to silence
e.g. artillery firing on a position was useful.
Is anyone aware of any studies as to the actual effectiveness of
pre-invasion bombardment, especially but not limited to battleships?
Thanks in advance,
*************************************************
(Roger) Brad Coon            "Lions are basically
[email-masked]          scavengers of
[email-masked]    hyaena kills."
                              Hans Kruuk

Kill a lion, save a hyaena!
Boycott Disney lionist propaganda!
*************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 31 Aug 1994 09:44:54 -0400
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [INF] USAAF 31 AUG 44

Jack McKillop <[email-masked]> writes:
>   STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Rumania, ...
> ... starting Operation REUNION (the evacuation of US airmen interned
> in Rumania), 36 B-17s evacuate US airmen from Bucharest (which falls to the
> Soviet Army today) to Bari, Italy.

        Why weren't the airmen in POW camps?  Didn't someone just mention that
Rumania had declared war on the US (even though the US didn't bother to return
the favor)?  Or were the airmen moved from POW camps to internment camps when
the Rumania government collapsed.  Any ideas?
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
I'm not interested in defenders, I'm interested in hotels, OK?  Hey,
look, you have to think of us as tourists.  I don't want any military
information, I just want to know which hotel is the most comfortable.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 31 Aug 1994 10:19:33 -0400
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: ADMIN: PLEASE READ

        To be as even-handed as possible, I ask that everyone refrain from
posting inflammatory comments or responses to such comments regardless of
the relevancy to WWII.  If this admonition is ignored, I will remove any
guilty parties (as defined by me -- there is no American jurisprudence
in effect on this list!) from the mailing list.  My reason for this harsh
action is simple: I will not tolerate any degradation of this list.  In
order to take into account propagation delays, I will not enforce this
policy until 3 PM EST, 8/31, for our North American members (and I know
where you all live!) and midnight 9/1 EST for the rest of the planet.  I
will use the Date: and Received: fields on messages to determine when it
was posted.

        If one finds that their passions are getting the better of them,
feel free to send a "SET WWII-L NOMAIL" message to the list server.  The
lull should help bring their blood pressure back to normal.  After about
a week, everything should be back to normal and a "SET WWII-L MAIL" message
can be sent to start receiving again.

        I would also ask that any responses to this message be sent
directly to me.  Thanks.
--
Joe Barone, WWII-L listowner
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 31 Aug 1994 11:25:32 -0400
From:    Peter Smith <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Montana Class (was German "H-Class" battleships)

Previously, Doug Donnell <[email-masked]> said:
> ... it seems somewhat
> peculiar that such a formidable gun platform would have been cancelled when
> there still lay ahead the island hopping push toward Japan that required
> off shore firepower to support landing operations.

A Montana-class BB is expensive way to lug around 16" seige artillery.

Refurbishing the old battleships for bombardment duty was much more cost
effective. Meanwhile, the Iowas, which  had the speed to sail with the
carrier groups, could perform the new, vital function of putting up a cloud
of AAA and providing last-ditch gunnery support should Japanese surface
elements get in close.

The old role of battleship-to-battleship gunnery, at which the Montanas
would have excelled, was unlinely to arise again, so the resources planned
for this class was better used elsewhere.
--
Peter Smith -- Data General Corp., Westboro MA, USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 31 Aug 1994 12:38:31 -0500
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [INF] USAAF 31 AUG 44

Just guessing, but it seems probable that the US airmen were POWs "liberated"
when the Rumanian government and army changed sides in Aug '44 and joined the
Soviets fighting the Germans.
(in response to Joe Barone's question)

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 31 Aug 1994 13:09:35 EDT
From:    John Sloan <[email-masked]>
Subject: US Marine Pubs

HI all,
Several members have asked for the list I promised of recent USMC booklets on
WWII Marine operations. Here is the list of the ones I have. I don't know if
I have them all. Perhaps Ben Frank will be so kind as to double check this
and confirm, or mention the ones I am missing.  All of these are great and
should be in public libraries all over the place, but I don't know what kind
of distribution or publication they are receiving.
hope this is of interest. Should I post to the military history list or the
WWII newsgroups?

john sloan
                            U. S. Marine Corps
                          Marines in World War II
                           Commemorative Series

     This series is prepared under the direction of Brig. Gen.
Edwin H. Simmons, USMC (Ret), Director of Marine Corps History
and Museums, and the General editor is Benis M. Frank, Chief
Historian of the Marine Corps. marine Corps Historical Center,
Building 58, Washington Navy Yard, Washington DC. 20374-5040

Alexander, Joseph H. Colonel USMC (Ret.), Across the Reef: The
Marine Assault of Tarawa, 52 pages, 1993.

Chapin, John C. Captain USMCR (Ret.),  Breaking the Outer Ring:
Marine Landings in the Marshall Islands, 28 Pages, 1994.

Cressman, Robert J., A Magnificent Fight: Marines in the Battle
for Wake Island, 36 pages, 1992.

Cressman, Robert J. and J. Michael Wenger, Infamous Day: Marines
at Pearl Harbor 7 December 1941, 32 pages, 1992.

Donovan, James A. Colonel USMC (Ret.), Outpost in the North
Atlantic: Marines in the Defense of Iceland, 32 pages, 1992.

Edwards, Harry, W. Lt. Col USMC (Ret.), A Different War: Marines
in Europe and North Africa, 32 pages, 1994.

Melson, Charles D. Major USMC (Ret.), Up the Slot: Marines in the
Central Solomons, 36 pages, 1993.

Mersky, Peter B. Commander USNR., Time of The Aces: Marine Pilots
in the Solomons, 1942-1944, 40 pages, 1993.

O'brien, Cyril J., Liberation: Marines in the Recapture of Guam,
44 pages, 1994.

Shaw, Henry I. Jr., The First Offensive: The Marine Campaign for
Guadalcanal, 52 pages, 1992

Shaw, Henry I. Jr., Opening Moves: Marines Gear Up For War, 24
pages, 1991.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 31 Aug 1994 12:13:11 CDT
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: U.S. "war plans" for the Pacific

Lou-

Read the book. It may be the best piece of naval planning history since
Roskill's two volumes, and the best piece of naval history in a decade.

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 31 Aug 1994 13:23:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Camp Kilmer

Edison and Piscataway Townships in Middlesex County, New Jersey have the
remains of one of the largest WWII US Army camps on the East Coast of the
US within their boundaries.  Since I live in the former and work in the
latter community, I was please that our local newspaper had a article
today about that installation, Camp Kilmer.

In 1942, the US Army recognized the need for a large installation in the
New York City area to process military personnel enroute to Europe.  The
Army purchased 1,533 acres (621 hectares), mostly in Piscataway Township,
on land pieced together from the sales of various farms.  The Smalley
family's 140-acre (57 hectare) tract was part of the deal, including an
ancient burial plot protected by a neat fence; the Army still maintains the
plot and family members still visit.

The camp was named for Joyce Kilmer, who was born in New Brunswick, the
county seat of Middlesex County.  Kilmer, who was a newspaperman and poet
before World War I, enlisted in the 165th Infantry Regiment, the old 69th
"Fighting Irish" Regiment of the New York National Guard, and was killed in
France in 1918.

Camp Kilmer was constructed in 6 months at a cost of $25 million.  It had
20 miles (32 km) of railroad track and 30 miles (48 km) of roads, more than
1,120 buildings including 5 theaters and eventually could house 85,000 GIs
at a time and process 50,000 of them per day.  Troops would spend between 5
and 14 days at Kilmer before they were loaded on trains and transported to
New York Harbor for the boarding of ships.  During their stay at Kilmer,
there were medical exams and inoculations, last-minute equipment checks,
etc., i.e., everything necessary to ensure that the troops were equipped
for overseas duty.

After VE Day, thousands of GIs returned from Europe enroute to the Pacific
and they were processed before going on furlough.  After VJ Day, thousands
more GIs were processed for discharge.  The camp was inactivated in 1949
only to be reopened a year later to perform the same staging function during
the Korean War.  In 1953, the staging function was transferred to Fort Dix
in Wrightstown, New Jersey and the camp was again inactivated.  During the
Hungarian uprising in 1956, thousands of Hungarian fled their country and
were admitted to the US; their first stop was Camp Kilmer where they were
processed.  Many settled in New Brunswick, just a few miles away, and still
maintain a large Hungarian community there.

Today, Camp Kilmer consists of 77 acres (31 hectares) and the only US Army
presence is the Sergeant Joyce Kilmer Reserve Training Center of the 1st
Brigade, 78th Division (Training).  A very large percentage of the land
has been donated to Rutgers University, the State University of New Jersey,
for their Livingston Campus.  The US Postal Service and the State of New
Jersey, plus many small businesses and apartments (flats), now occupy the
land where Bing Crosby, Bob Hope, Tommy Dorsey, Glenn Miller, Count Basie,
et al., once entertained thousands of GIs.  A court case has recently been
settled that will require the Army to sell off more of the land so Kilmer
is still shrinking.

I was in the USAF from 1955 and 1959 and spent my first year at Sampson
AFB, New York and Scott AFB, Illinois living and training in WWII buildings.
I still get a kick out of driving around the old Camp Kilmer and seeing
these 50-year old buildings.  Rutgers has a "Visiting Dignitary" building
which I swear looks identical to the Orderly Room I knew long ago and the
State of New Jersey has a youth training facility and those old barracks
bring back a lot of memories.

Perhaps we should suggest to our elected representatives that the
Government should save and restore some of these old buildings as a monument
to the GIs who served their country in WWII before they are all gone.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 31 Aug 1994 11:47:00 EDT
From:    Robert Gannon <[email-masked]>
Subject: WWII Torpedo Destruction Figures

For a book I'm completing on WWII, I'm trying to find figures
for destruction on the seas.  I'm particularly interested in sinkings
attributed to torpedoes.

I do have a few numbers--for instance, Japanese shipping sunk by
submarines is set at 5.3 million tons, or 1,314 ships, about 55 percent
of all Japanese ship losses.  But I would like much more, and
somehow I'm not finding it.

Can anyone out there help, either with specific statistics or with
sources?  (I can't believe that I haven't such figures in my reference
books; maybe I'm not looking at the right index item.)

======================================================================
Robert Gannon              |  Internet:  [email-masked]
35 Burrowes Building       |  Phone:     814 355-4800 or
Penn State                 |             814 355-0943
University Park, PA 16802  |  Fax:       814 863-7285

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 31 Aug 1994 13:29:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: US Marine Pubs

 >HI all,
 >Several members have asked for the list I promised of recent USMC booklets on
 >WWII Marine operations. Here is the list of the ones I have. I don't know if
 >I have them all. Perhaps Ben Frank will be so kind as to double check this
 >and confirm, or mention the ones I am missing.  All of these are great and
 >should be in public libraries all over the place, but I don't know what kind
 >of distribution or publication they are receiving.
 >hope this is of interest. Should I post to the military history list or the
 >WWII newsgroups?
 >
 >john sloan

Excellent post John.  Does anyone know if any or all of these are
available from the Government Printing Office?

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 31 Aug 1994 13:11:50 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Montana Class (was German "H-Class" battleships)

Hello, Brad!

> Is anyone aware of any studies as to the actual effectiveness of
> pre-invasion bombardment, especially but not limited to battleships?
> Thanks in advance,

    I know of no studies regarding this subject, but I am certain
that some exist somewhere. However, I might add, that the invading
troops, I would think, certainly felt more at ease, relatively
speaking, knowing that the fireships were doing something to make
their efforts less demanding once they hit the beach. I would hate to
think how those fellow would have felt without it.

    Just a thought, and thanks.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 31 Aug 1994 13:14:17 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Could the Luftwaffe have bombed the U.S.?

Hello, Brad!

> One of these was a huge 6 engine Junkers design (sorry, I don't remember
> the exact designation) that supposedly flew a recce mission over the
> Eastern US coast.

    You are thinking of the Ju-290 and it was a four-engined
aircraft. This aircraft flew within 30 miles of New York City, as I
remember reading. Also the Germans were developing the Me-324, a four-
engined aircraft with this purpose in mind.

        Hope this helps.

        Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 31 Aug 1994 14:17:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [INF] USAAF 31 AUG 44

 >Just guessing, but it seems probable that the US airmen were POWs "liberated"
 >when the Rumanian government and army changed sides in Aug '44 and joined the
 >Soviets fighting the Germans.
 >(in response to Joe Barone's question)
 >
 >Mike Yaklich

Mike,

I think you are right.  If my memory has not completely left me, I
believe there was something in the 50 years ago today file about
this.  I tried to access the 50ya ftp site to check it without
success.  Can someone else check???

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 31 Aug 1994 13:25:41 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: FW: [INF] USAAF 30 AUG 44

Hello, Jim!

I don't know if anyone has answered your questions below, but I will
try.

> The raids on the V-weapons sites have been pretty heavy lately. Exactly how many
> rocket sites were there (either at one time or all together), I wonder?

    Those V-1 sites were situated within sight of water. I can't give
you a specific number, but they were located in the Pas de Calais
area and Arromanches.

 Has anyo
> ne
> seen anything as to the effectiveness of the attacks on these targets?

    Yes. These sites were attacked with some degree of effectiveness,
but given the nature of them, they were quickly and easily repaired.
The best way for these sites to have been permanently eradicated was
to physically occupy the area, which was eventually done.

Lastly, w
> as
> each site a "one-shot" launch pad, or could these bases launch more than one
> rocket simultaneously?

    No. Each site could launch many V-1's, i.e. one right after the
other as quickly as they could be loaded and fueled.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 31 Aug 1994 13:28:11 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: FW: GEN: MAINLY ABOUT THE

Hello, again, Jim!

> What was the official number of those who were interned? I have also heard some
> were not released until 1946. Does anybody know if that is true?

    I have seen the number of 20,000. The year is correct. One reason
you didn't hear about this this much in school is the fact that it
was embarrassing and represented a blatant circumvention of due
process which is at the crux of our form of government.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 31 Aug 1994 20:42:48 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Could the Luftwaffe have bombed the U.S.?

On Wed, 31 Aug 1994, Robert T. Moore wrote:

> > One of these was a huge 6 engine Junkers design (sorry, I don't remember
> > the exact designation) that supposedly flew a recce mission over the
> > Eastern US coast.
>
>     You are thinking of the Ju-290 and it was a four-engined
> aircraft. This aircraft flew within 30 miles of New York City, as I
> remember reading. Also the Germans were developing the Me-324, a four-
> engined aircraft with this purpose in mind.

No, it was a Ju 390 --- a six-engined development of the Ju 290.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 31 Aug 1994 13:52:35 CDT
From:    Robert Hohlt <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Weap] Montana class BBs

Many many thanks to those of you that supplied the information
on the Montana class BBs.  I noticed from at least two posts
that the Montana class ships would have had 20 5"/54s in 10 double
turrets.  Is/was this 5" /54 Mark 16 a more or less advanced
caliber than the dual purpose 5"/38? Just what is the difference?

Thanks again,

Robert Hohlt, Jr.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 31 Aug 1994 13:53:06 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 50TH: A VISIT IN 1992 TO CHOISY-LE-ROI

Hello, John!

Great post and wonderful anecdote.

I wanted to tell you also, from one of your earlier posts, dealing
with the Norwegian resistance, that a book appeared in this country
about 15 years ago called "Life with the Enemy" and I can't remember
the author's name. It dealt with the very aspect of life under the
Nazis, collaboration as well as resistance, in the occupied
Scandinavian countries.

Thanks, again, John!

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 31 Aug 1994 15:31:23 -0400
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Camp Kilmer

>
>I was in the USAF from 1955 and 1959 and spent my first year at Sampson
>AFB, New York and Scott AFB, Illinois living and training in WWII buildings.
>I still get a kick out of driving around the old Camp Kilmer and seeing
>these 50-year old buildings.  Rutgers has a "Visiting Dignitary" building
>which I swear looks identical to the Orderly Room I knew long ago and the
>State of New Jersey has a youth training facility and those old barracks
>bring back a lot of memories.
>

Was Sampson AFB on the site of the old Sampson Naval Training Facilities on
Seneca Lake and across from the Romulus Army Depot?  The Naval Training
Facility was a major training depot (and where my father was sent for boot
camp in '43) during both wars.  Currently they are planning on building a
museum at this site which is now used as a New York State Park.  The plans
include a museum shop and rebuilding on of the barracks to its original
configuration.

Jack, If this is the same place I am curious if you recall any of the
"white" deer at Sampson?  If they weren't on the base when you were there,
I would have only one question - what did you guys do there that produced
white deer ;)  ?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka                                         National Warplane Museum
Cornell University                                 Geneseo, New York
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 31 Aug 1994 15:16:35 PDT
From:    Jim Brady <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HOMEFRONT- Japanese

---------------Original Message---------------
Hello, again, Jim!

> What was the official number of those who were interned? I have also heard som
e
> were not released until 1946. Does anybody know if that is true?

    I have seen the number of 20,000. The year is correct. One reason
you didn't hear about this this much in school is the fact that it
was embarrassing and represented a blatant circumvention of due
process which is at the crux of our form of government.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

----------End of Original Message----------

Indeed it does! Thanks.

-- Jim

PS: I believe it was last year or so that the US government finally reached a full
settlement with the Japanese Americans interned or their descendents. I don't
remember the figures involved, or the number of families (in other words, what
percentage of those who were eligible to make the claim.)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 31 Aug 1994 15:54:17 CDT
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Camp Kilmer

There were many colleges and public institutions after WWII that
purchased surplus building and moved them to their campus.  Housing for
the then campus of the Kirksville State Teacher's College (MO) was
greatly needed for the GI Bill decade of students so surplus buildings
were bought in St. Louis and hauled the 210 miles up here and remained
until the mid 1960's when more sturdy residential buildings were built.
It may very well be a real WWII building at Rutgers.  TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 31 Aug 1994 15:10:28 EDT
From:    RICHARD KING <[email-masked]>
Subject: Addr: James Jones

As resident James Jones (author of FROM HERE TO ETERNITY, etc.)
WWII-L fanatic, I am again posting the information about the
annual James Jones Conference, held at Lincoln Trail College,
Robinson, Ill. Oct. 8, 1994. This year's focus is on writers
of the Vietnam War to were influenced by WWII's most famous
novelist. There is no charge for the conference, although
if you want to stay for the dinner afterward, it is about
$15 (for more information, contact the James Jones Society,
Lincoln Trail College, RR 3, Box 82A, Robinson, IL 62454).
Membership is only $10 a year.

8 a.m.       Registration
9 a.m.       Welcome by J. Michael Lennon, President
9:15         Business Meeting
9:45         Readings from THE THIN RED LINE (Kaylie Jones and
                J. Michael Lennon)
10:15        Break
10:30        Panel: THE THIN RED LINE
             James R. Giles, Judith Everson, George Hendrick,
             Michael Mullen

11:45        Lunch (in Cafeteria or on your own)
1 p.m.       Book signings
1:30         Panel: James Jones and Vietnam Novelists
             Moderator: Jerry Bayne, Wabash Valley College;
             Winston Groom, author of BETTER TIMES THAN THESE,
             FORREST GUMP, and Larry Heinemann, author of
             CLOSE QUARTERS, PACO'S STORY.
2:45         Break
3:15         Readings from THE THIN RED LINE, James Jones
             recording
3:45         Presentation: James Jones First Novel Fellowship
             Kaylie Jones and Don Sackrider, remarks from
             award recipient
4            Reception, Crawford County Historical Society
6            Cash bar, Elks Club
7            Dinner, Elks Club (advance registration required)

If anyone wants to discuss James Jones, please feel free. I'm
reading THE THIN RED LINE again, about action on Guadalcanal,
and it is a very great book.

Richard King
Reference Librarian, Vincennes (IN) University
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 31 Aug 1994 14:25:49 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Weap] Montana class BBs

>Many many thanks to those of you that supplied the information
>on the Montana class BBs.  I noticed from at least two posts
>that the Montana class ships would have had 20 5"/54s in 10
>double turrets.  Is/was this 5" /54 Mark 16 a more or less
>advanced caliber than the dual purpose 5"/38? Just what is the
>difference?

>Thanks again,

>Robert Hohlt, Jr.

My privilege!

Again from Dulin and Garzke, three paragraphs of interest:

5-inch/38 caliber.  The United States Navy consistently favored a dual-purpose
armament for its capital ships, cruisers, and destroyers - a decision eased by
the availability of a reliable 5-inch/38 caliber dual-purpose gun.  Although its
ballistics were not outstanding, this gun was service-tested, proven reliable,
and provided with excellent fire-control systems.  The wartime development of
radar fire-control systems and the evolution of the proximity (VT) fuze
accentuated the considerable utility of this 5-inch gun.

5-inch/54 caliber.  The 5-inch/54 caliber gun, of the type projected for the
Montana class, first entered service in April of 1945 on the Midway-class
aircraft carriers.  It represented a considerable improvement in performance
over earlier U.S. Navy antiaircraft guns, having a much heavier shell with an
improved charge, as well as substantially increased range.  Unquestionably, the
battery of such guns projected for the Montana would have been markedly superior
in effectiveness to the 5-inch/38 caliber batteries given earlier battleships.

Description of Montana-class secondary battery:  The secondary battery of twenty
5-inch/54 caliber guns, Mark 16, in twin mounts was the most versatile and
powerful dual-purpose gun ever selected for use by the U.S. Navy.  It fired a
heavier shell at greater range and with a rate of fire similar to that of the
less effective 5-inch/38 caliber gun.  In the mid-1970s improved, fully
automatic models of the 5-inch/54 caliber gun were still being mounted on new
destroyer-type ships.

Statistics:

                5"/38 WP New         5"/54 COM Mark 42 New
Shell Weight          53 lbs                     70 lbs
Muzzle Velocity    2,600 fps                  2,650 fps
Range @ 45 deg    17,575 yards               25,909 yards
Range @ 30 deg    16,200 yards               22,500 yards
Range @ 10 deg     9,800 yards               13,000 yards

AA Ceiling:  AAC Mark 49 Avg            COM Mark 42 New
                  37,200 feet                51,600 feet

Interestingly, even this book, in it's fourth reprint in 1985 still did not
have the rate of fire available for either gun.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 1 Sep 1994 07:57:35 EST
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Operations Jaywick and Rimau (was RE: Attack Force Z)

Some more info for Lou and Colin, and anyone else reading this thread.

Operation Jaywick was a raid on Singapore harbour by members of Z Special Unit.
Z Special Unit answered to the Commander Land Forces SEA ( Gen. Blamey ) via
Gen. Herring, and was made up of soldiers from the Independant Companies
(translates as Australian Commandos), RAN, RN, and some British Army personnel.

The raid was approved after a mock raid by Z Unit teams on Townsville harbour
(an Australian port) was embarrassingly successful.

Jaywick (random code name with no meaning) was led by Capt. Lyon of the Gordon
Highlanders. The raiders consisted of Capt Lyon, Lt. Davidson RNVR, Lt Carse
RANVR, Lt Page AIF, Lyon's batman and 9 Australians from the RAN and AIF.
They departed Exmouth Gulf, Western Australia on September 2, 1943 in the
fishing boat Krait. ( formerly the Kokufu Maru ) to travel 3,600km to
Singapore via Lombok Strait. The raiders entered SIngapore harbour on the night
of September 26
in 3 two-man folboats  (collapsable kayaks) armed with limpet mines (and only
pistols for self defence.) Limpets were attached to a tanker and six other
merchant ships, of which two were confirmed sunk ( by post war investigation )
and the rest damaged. The folboat teams rejoined the Krait on October 1 and 2.
After being intercepted, but not stopped by a Japanese destroyer, the Krait
returned to Exmouth on October 19, 1943.

After the success of Jaywick, a second raid was planned - Operation Rimau.
(Rimau is the Malay word for tiger). Again led by Lyons, the 25 man team left
Careening Bay, Western Australia, September 11, 1944, on the minelaying
submarine HMS Porpise
with 15 'sleeping beauties' (semi-submersible one-man powered canoes), and 11
folboats.

The submarine dropped off the raiders at an island near Singapore where they
set up a base camp and captured a junk on September 29 (the Mustika) to use on
the raid. The raid was aborted when the junk was stopped by the Malay Water
Police and the Japanese were alerted. The 'sleeping beauties' were dumped and
the raiders departed for the submarine rendevous in the folboats. The RN Sub
Tantalus didn't make the November 8 rendevous. (to be fair, the sub captain
would not have known of the urgency of the pickup and still  had torpedos on
board, so he decided to use up his torpedoes and make the alternate RV date, by
which the raiders were no longer there, but there were signs that they had been
there.)

What actually happened to the raiders was determined after the war from
interviews with the Japanese. It seems that the raiders were found on one of
the islands. Lyons and one other died covering the escape of the others in the
folboats. The Japanese then spent the next few months hunting down the raiders
in a series of running fights down the archipeligo towards Sumatra. Some
raiders who covered the escape of others were found to have held off the
Japanese until their last bullet, then killed themselves with it rathar than
surrender. 11 raiders were captured and the last one hunted down and killed was
in mid-March 1945. The 11 captured were put on trial in Singapore and executed
by beheading on July 7 1945. The beheading incident caused much resentment in
Australia when it became known, being considered barbaric. The Japanese view
was different as the Japanese officer who ordered the executions saw it as a
sign of repect and an honorable death. (He made a speach at the executions
saying how even the bravest Japanese soldier could learn from the outstanding
bravery of these men.)

There have been several movie dramatisations of these events. 'Attack Force Z'
is a ficticious story of a typical Z Special Unit operation. The Jaywick raid
was filmed as the TV mini-series 'Heroes' in the late 80's. The Rimau raid was
fimed as 'The Heroes of the Krait' in 1982. (one book I have has stills from
this film.)

The Krait, after being retired from army service in 1944 has eventually found
its way into the hands of the Australian National Maritime Museum and is still
in seaworthy condition. - I have a photo dated 1989 showing the Krait at sea.

David Murnain
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 31 Aug 1994 16:33:38 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: NORWEGIAN RESISTANCE DURING WWII

John Ausland...
        You have probably read: TWO EGGS ON MY PLATE.
What did you think of it?
Regards -- Sidney.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 31 Aug 1994 16:59:05 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [INF] USAAF 31 AUG 44

Hi, Joe...
Another mention of USAF (and RAF Commonwealth) "tourists" --
        THE LUCKY ONES, a television documentary aired last night on
Bandian Broadvasting Corp TV. Told the story of the 132 Allied airmen
who the Germand sent to Buchenwald concentration camp in 1944, instead
of to a POW camp.
Most moving story, told by several survivors (the lucky ones) who
recently went back to the site of Buchenwald. Understated, well-done
documentary.
        I understand the CBC-produced program is to be repeated on the
A&E Network, so US viewers will see it also. (Maybe you have already ?)

--

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 31 Aug 1994 20:48:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Sampson AFB, NY

 >>I was in the USAF from 1955 and 1959 and spent my first year at Sampson
 >>AFB, New York and Scott AFB, Illinois living and training in WWII buildings.
 >>I still get a kick out of driving around the old Camp Kilmer and seeing
 >>these 50-year old buildings.  Rutgers has a "Visiting Dignitary" building
 >>which I swear looks identical to the Orderly Room I knew long ago and the
 >>State of New Jersey has a youth training facility and those old barracks
 >>bring back a lot of memories.
 >>
 >
 >Was Sampson AFB on the site of the old Sampson Naval Training Facilities on
 >Seneca Lake and across from the Romulus Army Depot?  The Naval Training
 >Facility was a major training depot (and where my father was sent for boot
 >camp in '43) during both wars.  Currently they are planning on building a
 >museum at this site which is now used as a New York State Park.  The plans
 >include a museum shop and rebuilding on of the barracks to its original
 >configuration.
 >
 >Jack, If this is the same place I am curious if you recall any of the
 >"white" deer at Sampson?  If they weren't on the base when you were there,
 >I would have only one question - what did you guys do there that produced
 >white deer ;)  ?

 >Ron Babuka                                         National Warplane Museum

Yup, same place. NTC Sampson was activated (commissioned to you Navy types)
in Oct 42 and inactivated (decommissioned?) in Jul 46.  When the Korean War
started, the only USAF basic training facility was Lackland AFB, San
Antonio, Texas.  So the AF acquired Sampson AFB and activated it in Nov 50
and acquired Parks AFB (ex Camp Shoemaker/Camp Parks) in Pleasonton,
California for a third basic training base; Parks AFB was activated in
Sep 54.  Samspn was used as a basic training facility between 1951 and 1956
and was finally inactivated in 1958.

As we have discussed privately, I am planning to go to Geneseo next year
and then possibly go up to Ottawa and catch their new aviation museum.
Soooooo, a side trip to Sampson may be in order.  When will the museum shop
and rebuilding of the barracks start and complete??

As far as any animal is concerned, I was there for 11 weeks between 31 Jan
55 and mid-April and I don't remember seeing anything except snow, mud,
water, etc.  It was good training though; on 1 Mar 56 I arrived at Keflavik,
Iceland for a one year tour.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 31 Aug 1994 20:53:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 1 SEP 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
FRIDAY, 1 SEPTEMBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  Beaufighter, Bristol
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  UC-64, Noorduyn Norseman
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  L-4, Piper Cub/Grasshopper
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  Mosquito, deHavilland
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  P-61, Northrop Black Widow

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): A B-24 bombs Kashiwabara on Paramushiru
Island, Kurile Islands during the night of 31 Aug/1 Sep; a B-25 bombs a
shack on the SW coast of Paramushiru Island and sinks a nearby ship; and 5
other B-25s on this mission turn back due to overcast.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): A few P-47s attack Bhamo, Burma and strafe
river boats in the area. In India, the 164th, 165th and 166th Liaison
Squadrons (Commando), with UC-64s and L-5s, and the 319th Troop Carrier
Squadron (Commando), with C-47s, are activated at Asansol and assigned to the
1st Air Commando Group.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 4 B-24s claim a small freighter
sunk in Formosa Strait; 12 B-25s bomb Kai Tek Airfield, Hong Kong, and a
supply depot S of Canton; B-25s hit a road S of Nanyo, a runway at Hengyang,
and targets of opportunity near Anjen; 61 P-40s and P-51s attack bridges,
roads, shipping, airfields, troops, and other targets of opportunity at or
near Yangtien, Nanyo, Hengyang, Anjen, Changning, and Chiuchiang; and the
35th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, Fourteenth Air Force, moves from
Guskhara, India to Kunming with F-5s. During Sep, the 528th Fighter Squadron,
311th Fighter Group, based at Shwangliu, China with P-51s, sends detachments
to operate from Hanchung and Liansshan.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 3 missions are flown.
  1. Mission 595: 679 B-17s and 294 B-24s are dispatched to hit Ludwigshafen,
Haguenan, Gustavsburg, Mainz and Hallach, Germany and Foret de Haguenan,
France; high clouds are encountered over France and the mission is recalled;
1 B-17 bombs Hallach; 2 B-17s and 1 B-24 are damaged beyond repair and 5
B-17s are damaged; 30 airmen are KIA and 2 WIA. Escort is provided by 508
P-38s and P-51s; 3 P-51s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 1 damaged; 2
pilots are MIA.
  2. Mission 597: 12 of 12 Azon-equipped B-24s hit the Ravenstein rail
bridge, the Netherlands without loss. Escort is provided by 15 of 15 P-51s.
  3. Mission 599: 3 of 3 B-17s fly a Micro H mission to attack a fuel dump in
the Bois del la Haussiere, Belgium without loss. Escort is provided by 2 of 2
P-51s.
VIII Fighter Command fighter-bomber missions:
  1. 265 of 273 P-47s attack railroads in N and NE France; they claim 5-0-2
aircraft on the ground; 3 P-47s are lost (pilots are MIA), 1 damaged beyond
repair and 28 damaged.
  2. 33 of 33 attack targets in the Brussels, Belgium area without loss.
31 of 44 B-24s fly CARPETBAGGER missions during the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): HQ IX Troop Carrier Command comes
under administrative control of HQ US Strategic Air Forces in Europe (USSTAF)
and under operational control of HQ First Allied Airborne Army, to increase
efficiency, especially for planning, training, and preparation of airborne
operations.  Supreme Headquarters Allied Expeditionary Force (SHAEF) now can
deal directly with all elements of an airborne force through a single unified
command instead of through various army groups and air forces (i.e. 12th and
21st Army Groups, Ninth AF, and RAF components).
  In France, B-26s attack fortifications in the Brest area which artillery
fire had been unable to reduce; escorting fighters fly sweeps and armed
reconnaissance in N and E France, and fly cover for 6 divisions in the
Amiens, Saint-Quentin, Cambrai, Reims, and Verdun areas and the Brussels,
Belgium area; the 125th Liaison Squadron, Ninth Air Force (attached to Ninth
Army) moves from Erlestokes, England to St Sauveur-Lendelin with L-5s; the
425th Night Fighter Squadron, IX Air Defense Command, moves from Vannes to Le
Moustoiris with P-61s; and the 556th, 557th, 558th and 559th Bombardment
Squadrons (Medium), 387th Bombardment Group (Medium), move from Stony Cross,
England to Maupertuis with B-26s.
  During Sep, HQ IX Fighter Command moves from Canisy, France to Charleroi,
Belgium.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  AAF, MTO: In France, the flight of the 72d Liaison Squadron, AAF, MTO,
operating from Caserta, Italy with L-5s returns to base at Brignoles; and the
121st Liaison Squadron, AAF, MTO, based at Pomigliano, Italy sends "A"
Flight to operate from St Tropez with L-4s and L-5s. During Sep, the
detachment of the 16th Reconnaissance Squadron (Heavy, Special), AAF, MTO,
operating from Borgo, Corsica with B-17s, returns to base at Foggia, Italy
(the squadron serves as a radar detection and ECM unit in the MTO until 26
Sep 44).

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 480+ B-17s and B-24s attack
targets in Italy, Hungary and Yugoslavia; B-24s attack Boara Pisani, Italy;
in Yugoslavia, B-17s and B-24s attack railroad bridges at Tesica/Moravac,
Mitrovica, and Kraljevo, marshalling yards at Novi Sad and the airfield at
Nish; in Hungary B-24s attack railroad bridges at Szolnok, and Mezotur,
marshalling yards at Szajol, Debreczen, and Berettyoujfalu; 51 P-51s
successfully strafe Debreczen Airfield, Hungary; 16 B-17s evacuate interned
US airmen from Rumania; fighters support bombing and evacuation missions.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy during the night of 31
Aug/1 Sep A-20s hit gun positions and targets of opportunity in the W Po
Valley; weather grounds B-26s during the day but B-25s score excellent
results against road and railroad bridges N and NE of Venice; fighter-bomber
and fighters bomb and strafe roads, troop concentrations, supply dumps, and
German HQ in the battle area N of Florence, and fly armed reconnaissance from
Ventimiglia along the coast to La Spezia; and the 416th Night Fighter
Squadron, 62d Fighter Wing, moves from Pomigliano to Rosignano with Mosquitos
leaving a detachment at Pomigliano. In France, the 23d Photographic
Reconnaissance Squadron, 5th Photographic Reconnaissance Group [attached to
3d Photographic Group (Reconnaissance)] and based at Borgo, Corsica with F-5s
begins operating from Le Luc; the 314th and 315th Fighter Squadrons, 324th
Fighter Group, move from Le Luc to Istres with P-47s; and the 415th Night
Fighter Squadron, 64th Fighter Wing, moves from Solonzara, Corsica to Le
Vallon with Beaufighters.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): In the Mariana Islands, Saipan Island-based
P-47s carry out rocket and strafing strike against Pagan Island. In the
Caroline Islands, a lone B-24 on armed reconnaissance bombs Yap Island and
Marshall Island-based B-24s bomb Truk Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: 50+ B-24s bomb
Sasa, Matina, and Likanan Airfields on Mindanao Island, Philippine Islands;
others, failing to reach Mindanao, hit Beo in the Talaud Islands. Fighter-
bombers hit Boela and Amahai Airfield on Ceram Island, Moluccas Islands.
In New Guinea, A-20s, P-40s and B-25s bomb runways at Babo and Urarom; and
HQ 374th Troop Carrier Group moves from Townsville, Australia to Nadzab.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
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01/0056Z SEP

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Date:    Wed, 31 Aug 1994 21:52:43 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: INFO WANTED: 309TH AT

Ed, good to see you on the line. Re/your request, why not contact CMH, you
certainly know people over there, but, on the other hand, from what I have
read, there will undoubtedly be a number of people on the line who have the
answer for you.Cheers, Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 31 Aug 1994 19:00:18 -0700
From:    Ed Kettler <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Montana Class (was German "H-Class" battleships)

Brad,

George Dyer's biography of Adm. R. Kelly Turner, The Amphibians Came to
Conquer, covers the subject in detail.  At Kwajelein and Roi-Namur, the
bombardment was very effective because:  the target areas were small, the
duration of the bombardments were adequate, and the ships closed to point
blank range to engage point targets.

Where the bombardments were flawed (Tarawa, Iwo, etc.) it was because one
of these conditions was not met.  The Iwo bombardment was plagued by bad
weather, which reduced the amount of bombardment time.

Another factor was which squadron did the bombardments:  Jesse
Oldendorf's old BBs specialized in ShoBo.  Fast BBs didn't practice and
weren't very good.

Ed Kettler                                       [email-masked]

On Wed, 31 Aug 1994 [email-masked] wrote:

> Doug Donnell's suggestion that the Montana class ships would have
> been useful as fire-support ships reminded me that every invasion
> account that I have read, has left me with the impression that pre-
> invasion bombardment was of little use.  There always seems to be
> some assertion that 'despite all those shells their bunkers were still
> untouched, etc.'  I don't doubt that close in fire support to silence
> e.g. artillery firing on a position was useful.
> Is anyone aware of any studies as to the actual effectiveness of
> pre-invasion bombardment, especially but not limited to battleships?
> Thanks in advance,
> *************************************************
> (Roger) Brad Coon            "Lions are basically
> [email-masked]          scavengers of
> [email-masked]    hyaena kills."
>                               Hans Kruuk
>
> Kill a lion, save a hyaena!
> Boycott Disney lionist propaganda!
> *************************************************
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 31 Aug 1994 19:05:25 -0700
From:    Ed Kettler <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WWII Torpedo Destruction Figures

Robert,

I seem to recall that the US Naval Institute had a couple of books on the
subject.  US Submarine Attacks and Axis Submarine Attacks, or something
like that.

Ed Kettler                                       [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 31 Aug 1994 19:14:44 -0700
From:    Ed Kettler <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Weap] Montana class BBs

The following is again from Dulin and Garzke's US Battleships in WW2

5"/38:  Muzzle velocity 2600 FPS, shell 55.18 pounds, Range 18,200 yds
AA ceiling 37,200'

5"/54:  Muzzle velocity 2650 FPS, shell 69.45 (AAC), range 25,909 yds, AA
ceiling 51,600'

Rate of fire is "similar"

Ed Kettler                                       [email-masked]

On Wed, 31 Aug 1994, Robert Hohlt wrote:

> Many many thanks to those of you that supplied the information
> on the Montana class BBs.  I noticed from at least two posts
> that the Montana class ships would have had 20 5"/54s in 10 double
> turrets.  Is/was this 5" /54 Mark 16 a more or less advanced
> caliber than the dual purpose 5"/38? Just what is the difference?
>
> Thanks again,
>
>
> Robert Hohlt, Jr.
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 31 Aug 1994 22:16:21 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: MONTANA CLAS

Brad, you are quite mistaken. The sorry performance of naval gunfire support at
Tarawa taught the Navy a a lesson which it learned well and used to good
advantage in the Pacific operations after this time. The father of naval
gunfire is the late MajGen Donald M. Weller, USMC, who was one of the greatest
advocates of naval gunfire support of amphibious operations and was LtGen
Holland M. Smith's naval gunfire officer at Fleet Marine Force, Pacific. If you
will read Isely and Crowl, "U.S. Marines and Amphibious War," Samuel Eliot
Morison's history of the Navy in WWII, and the individual volumes in the
five-volume "History of U.S. Marine Corps Operations in World War II," you will
find considerable evidence concerning the efficacy and importance, as well as
success, in the employment of naval gunfire in WWII. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 31 Aug 1994 22:39:48 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: US MARINE PUBS

You are missing Jack Chapin's "Breaching the Marianas: The Battle for Saipan"
and Bud Shaw's "Opening Moves: Marines Gear Up for War." Soon to be published
is Richard Harwood's monograph on Tinian, Bernard Nalty's monograph on Cape
Gloucester, and Col Mary Stremlow's history of Women Marines in WWII.
Incidentally, Dick Harwood, who served at Tarawa, Saipan, and Tinian, and, I
believe, Iwo Jima, is former ombudsman of the Washington Post and very high in
the hierarchy at the paper. He now writes syndicated columns which are
exercises in accuracy and straight thinking. By the way, while I am on the
wire, I would like to recommend two recently published military histories. One,
"once a Legend: "Red Mike" Edson of the Marine Raiders" is an outstanding
biography by Maj Jon Hoffman and published by Presidio Press. It is accurate
and well written, and from this success, Jon has been authorized by the Puller
family to write a biography of another legend of the Corps, LtGen Lewis B.
Puller. The other book is by Jerry Strahan, "Andrew Jackson Higgins and the
Boats that Won World War II,'pblished by Louisiana State University Press, also
a good read. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 31 Aug 1994 22:43:18 EDT
From:    John Sloan <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: US Marine Pubs

Jack is asking about publication data on the Marine pubs

Jack, they do not show a GPO printing notice - I believe they were printed
with special funds - a grant for commemoration of WWII.
Ben will surely provide the correct info.
I am glad you liked the list.
best wishes

john sloan

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End of WWII-L Digest - 30 Aug 1994 to 31 Aug 1994
*************************************************