Subject: WWII-L Digest - 29 Aug 1994 to 30 Aug 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 00:02:40 -0400

There are 37 messages totalling 1255 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. 50TH: LIBERATION OF PARIS
  2. A Joint U.S.-Japanese school film on Pearl Harbor and Hiroshima? (2)
  3. Could the Luftwaffe have bombed the U.S.? (2)
  4. INF: USN Chronology 08-30-94
  5. <No subject given> (2)
  6. [INF] USAAF 28 AUG 44
  7. BATTERY PRESS
  8. MEDIA: Attack Force Z
  9. A Joint U.S.-Japanese school film on Pearl Harbor and Hiroshima? (fwd)
 10. Curtailing "due credit's" political claptrap.
 11. ADMIN: RE: IMPORTANCE
 12. GEN: MAINLY ABOUT THE
 13. GEN: NORWEGIAN RESISTANCE DURING WWII (2)
 14. TRIVIA: FALKENHORST AND BELGIAN RESISTANCE
 15. Question: German Troop Deployment in France
 16. ENOLA GAY Press Release
 17. HELP NEEDED (please read this)
 18. P-51GEN: P-51
 19. INF: 50 Years Ago - 31-AUG-1944
 20. request for help--thanks!!
 21. INF: 50 Years Ago FTP Archive
 22. Information
 23. Smokeless?/flashless...
 24. NEWS: B-24D found near Rockhampton, Australia (2)
 25. Re[2]: [WEAP] German "H-Class" battleships (2)
 26. A Joint U.S.-Japanese
 27. Info wanted: 309th at Remagen
 28. [INF] USAAF 31 AUG 44
 29. P-47 vs P-51
 30. U.S. "war plans" for the Pacific
 31. FW: GEN: MAINLY ABOUT THE

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 30 Aug 1994 07:54:33 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 50TH: LIBERATION OF PARIS

On Mon, 29 Aug 1994 07:52:24 -0400 Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs. said:
>We ALL know that France was liberated by the "Allies". This INCLUDES all of
>the above, including people from Canada, Australia, Poland, and all over
>the free world.
>
>The problem is the spin being placed upon the war by the media. Remember all
>the coverage during the D-Day commerations blaming the Americans (Yes, the
>Americans) for bombing French civilians? I remember a man being interviewed
>claiming the Germans were scholarly, civilized folk, who harmed nobody until
>those Americans came, and started killing everybody.

Not really.  Ask a Russian what he/she thinks of our textbooks' coverage of
WWII--that problem has been endemic since the end of the war.  There's no
*recent* "spin" emphasizing/de-emphasizing one country's role over anothers.

Other thing to keep in mind is that ordinary folk didn't get to see much more
than a worm's eye view of the war.  So I can easily believe that some
Frenchman never saw an "uncivilized" German, but did see a lot of American
bombs. . . 30 miles away, you might just as well find the opposite story,
with the Gestapo taking reprisals right and left, and nary an Allied plane
to be seen.  The observations of those who served, survived, or endured--
on all sides--are not necessarily made in bad faith, and one should not be
so hasty to attribute that to them.

>The problem is the new spin that degrades those who fought (on both sides)
>and what they fought for for the sake of historical revisionism.

No, the particular spin you are complaining about is at least 50 years old
and is not especially for the sake of "revisionism".

ken koester
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 30 Aug 1994 07:57:22 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: A Joint U.S.-Japanese school film on Pearl Harbor and Hiroshima?

Lou Coatney proposes;

>Maybe we should negotiate a mandatory film to be shown to every
>  9th Grade Japanese and American student.

Sounds too much like indoctrination to me. Sort of like teaching
people to say "Heil Hitler" as a greeting...;-)

There's enough propoganda out there. It gets to me so much that
I often impose upon our kind Mr. Barrone to snip out my offending
posts.

I am grateful for his tactful censorship however. I've been saved
from myself more than once by him.

Anyway Lou, Sorry but I can't buy into that idea. If we force our
viewpoints upon students (Or our version of what is fair), we become
just as bad os those !@%$#% PC type we all know and loathe.

                                                                Steve

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - [email-masked] |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 30 Aug 1994 07:10:18 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: Could the Luftwaffe have bombed the U.S.?

Well, Emmanuel was correct on this matter, as he is on most. It was the
British who used the piggy-back method of launching a float-plane from a
flying boat in order to make the crossing.

I also find, consulting Gandt's fine book on the China Clippers, that I
misremembered the German system of "depot" boats. The flying boat left
from the Azores and landed astern of the depot ship, which trailed a
canvas apron to smooth the water. (Or poured oil, if the waves were bad.)
The flying boat was then taken aboard, refueled, and launched from a
catapult. As with the British piggy-back system, the logic was to avoid
the tremendous fuel expenditure involved in taking off from the water.

A Luft Hanza land plane successsfully flew nonstop to New York, 5,000
miles, causing Lindberg to predict that the flying boat was the wrong
answer to trans-ocean travel.

Anyhow, the answer seems to be: sure, Germany could have put a bomb
somewhere in the eastern U.S., but it would have been a one-way flight.

            - Dan      <[email-masked]>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 30 Aug 1994 01:28:59 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 08-30-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
08/30 Wed. Submarine NARWHAL (SS-167) lands men and supplies on east
           coast of Luzon, P. I.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 30 Aug 1994 09:24:00 +0200
From:    itzhaki hadassah <[email-masked]>
Subject: <No subject given>

Hi,
YOU CAN SEE I'M A BEGINNER.  In my previous message, I forgot to add the
year.
I'm looking for the year 1945, MARCH, APRIL, MAY.
Thanks again.  Hadassah

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 30 Aug 1994 09:05:50 +0200
From:    itzhaki hadassah <[email-masked]>
Subject: <No subject given>

HI EVERYBODY,
For more than 3 months I'm a member of this intersting group.  Now I need
your help, and hope to get it.  0n March, April and May,a man named
Celler orgenized a Jewish Lobby that collected documents, evidents,
reports, etc. in order to persuade President Truman to send Harrison to
Europe to investigate the Jewish Displaced Person Camps.  I'm looking for
those documents, evidents, reports ...
IS THERE ANYONE WHO CAN HELP ME? I need this for the thesis I'm writing.
Thanks and see you, hadassah

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 23:35:40 +0100
From:    John Behrens <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [INF] USAAF 28 AUG 44

> while 16 (!) P-51's are lost.  I guess a P-47 really could come back with
> one or more cylinders shot off.
> Tim J. Watts
> Valparaiso University
>

I once read two seperate stories that attest to the durability of that
aircraft.  Both stem from ground attack runs.  In one, a P-47 limped back
home to England with only 9 of its 18 cylinders firing!  In another, a 47
got to low and to close to a radio tower and clipped it with its left
wing I believe.  It too made it home, minus the outer 4 feet of the
wing!  The ground attack mission was a role the 47 was born to play.  It
also could hold its own very well in a dogfight.  Just ask any member of
the 56th fighter group.

                                        Regards,

                                        John

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 30 Aug 1994 09:06:24 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: BATTERY PRESS

Ed, the address of Battery Press is P.O. Box 19885, Uptown Station, Nashville,
TN 37219. The owner is Dick Gardner, a very nice gent. His phone number is
(615) 298-1401. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 22:35:49 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Attack Force Z

David,

     Fascinating.  So was the attack by frogman-attached
limpet mines?

     Amazing that the KRAIT survived.  Far cheaper than
preserving the (WWII) ENTERPRISE, I'd suspect.

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 22:30:22 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: A Joint U.S.-Japanese school film on Pearl Harbor and Hiroshima?
         (fwd)

Forwarded message:
>From [email-masked] Mon Aug 29 21:53 CDT 1994
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 94 22:54:19 -0400
From: [email-masked]
Message-Id: <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: A Joint U.S.-Japanese school film on Pearl Harbor and Hiroshima?
To: "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 2195

     Thank you for writing to President Clinton via electronic
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messages from people all over the world.

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------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 22:16:59 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Curtailing "due credit's" political claptrap.

Clap, clap, clap, ...  (meaning assent and compliance,
  of course  :-)  )

Lou

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 30 Aug 1994 09:06:58 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: ADMIN: RE: IMPORTANCE

Thanks, Joe. A rational voice stridently sounded is welcome. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 30 Aug 1994 09:07:06 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN: MAINLY ABOUT THE

Well said, John. PC is at the bottom of the Enola Gay exhibit. One of the
scripters wanted to have the crew exhibit some remorse over their mission and
its effect. The same people, I believe, mounted an exhibit on the internment of
the Japanese at the beginning of WWII, and that, too, smacked of PC. It will be
a sad day for the world if these PCers take it over. Why, I won't even be able
to enjoy a pipeload of the best. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 30 Aug 1994 08:38:55 -0500
From:    Drew Halevy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: A Joint U.S.-Japanese school film on Pearl Harbor and Hiroshima?

The idea of film is good one. One element that I often see overlooked (I
am in grad school/phd history) is the idea of context. today anti-nukers
can beat thier chest and talk about how fat man/little boy were needed
(the Japenese were going to give up, the excessive carnage of the bomb,
etc) and should not have been dropped. We need to look at Hiroshima from
the standpoint of Aug 6, 1945. For those on Tinian, it appeared the
Japanese were going to fight to the last man. To Col. Tibbets, I doubt he
(or anyone outside of the Trinity Test) had even a remote idea of the
force that was to be unleashed by the bomb. He was a soldier and he did
his what his country ordered. Using our knowledge in 1994 to judge
actions in 1945 seems unfair at best, and immoral at worst. For my
father, recuperating in a hospital in England, the V-E day simply meant
that he (and his unit the Blackhawks 86th Div) faced the real possibility
of going to fight on mainland Japan. we only judge those who fought (and
gave the orders on the basis of what THEY knew, hot what we know. Maybe
if we (those of later generations) were less sumg and self-rightous and
more apprecitave of the sacrifices made by those in WWII, we would learn
more about history.-drew

Drew Halevy
Department of History
University of Arkansas
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 30 Aug 1994 14:28:06 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN: NORWEGIAN RESISTANCE DURING WWII

  August 30, 1994

  Robert Granvin asked me about the Norwegian resistance.  There is quite a bit
of literature on this, mainly in Norwegian.  There is also a first class
Resistance Museum in Oslo.

  I have not made any special effort to master this subject, beyond a visit to
the museum, some reading, and talking with people who were involved.  One of my
closest friends, who is nearing ninety, was liaison between the Norwegian
resistance and a German officer posted here who was a part of the German
resistance.

  The Norwegian resistance was active during the war.  A great many good
stories have emerged from this, above all the destruction of the heavy water
plant in Telemark, which has produced several films.

  There is, however, another side of the story.  Norwegians tend to concentrate
on what happened here and to be uninformed on what went on elsewhere.  The Army
spent the war in Scotland, training for an attack on Norway that never came
about.  The fighting was done by the air and naval units.  The heaviest
casualties, about half, were taken by the merchant marine.  The veterans of
these service greatly resent the way in which what they did has been largely
overlooked, while the resistance has been glorified.

  I realize this may not be what people want to hear, but war stories often
overlook the negative side.

  So there is no misunderstanding.  I am not downgrading the contribution of the
resistance.  I know, for example, one man who pulled off dozens of remarkable
sabotage feats at great risk in Oslo.  It is just that I feel it a pity that
more attention is not paid to what was going on outside Norway.

  Anyone doing research on this subject should begin with an overall view of
what went on in Scandinavia during the war.  This is provided by a book written
by Scandinavian scholars and edited by Henrik S. Nissen.  The title is
SCANDINAVIA DURING THE SECOND WORLD WAR.  ISBN 82-00-05472-1.  University
Press, Oslo.  1983.  Since it is in English, I assume it must be available in
some libraries in the US.

  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 30 Aug 1994 21:47:28 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Subject: TRIVIA: FALKENHORST AND BELGIAN RESISTANCE

  August 30, 1994
  Does anyone know whether Falkenhorst, German commander in Belgium and northern
France, was in contact with the Belgian resistance?
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 30 Aug 1994 08:53:24 EST
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Could the Luftwaffe have bombed the U.S.?

        I suspect that I am missing part of the thread here, but
following the old adage about fools rushing..., I will rush in.
The Germans were certainly working on a number of designs for bombing
the US which were designed for round trip flights, not one way missions.
One of these was a huge 6 engine Junkers design (sorry, I don't remember
the exact designation) that supposedly flew a recce mission over the
Eastern US coast.
*************************************************
(Roger) Brad Coon            "Lions are basically
[email-masked]          scavengers of
[email-masked]    hyaena kills."
                              Hans Kruuk

Kill a lion, save a hyaena!
Boycott Disney lionist propaganda!
*************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 30 Aug 1994 09:27:00 -0500
From:    Colin Brace <[email-masked]>
Subject: Question: German Troop Deployment in France

          Reading the 50 years ago postings of John Davis, Theron Keller,
          Jack McKillop showing the progress of allied forces on the western
          front, especially after Operation Anvil (The allied landings in
          southern France) has prompted a question that I do not recall being
          addressed.

          Since the allied armies were by then pretty much (with some
          exceptions i.e. Brittany) swinging out of Normandy & past Paris in
          a somewhat counter-clockwise direction towards the Rhine, and the
          allied armies were advancing north up the Rhone valley, my question
          is this: What happened to the German forces in the south-west
          quarter of France? How many were deployed there? What was their
          quality, make-up, etc? Was this a Falise-type trap only on a larger
          scale, or were they left to wither on the vine, or were they
          bitter-enders?

          Is there anything substantial in print on this? Like I said, I
          can't recall much on this. Thank you very much for any info on
          this, I never fail to learn something each day on this list.

          Colin Brace WA1KWA

          [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 30 Aug 1994 09:57:45 -0500
From:    Michael D Wallick <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ENOLA GAY Press Release

On Mon, 29 Aug 1994, Sidney Allinson wrote:

> Steven Pulo...
> Yes, Steve, there's at least one book I came across that faces the
> reality of valid reasons for dropping the A-bombs:
>         MIRACLE OF DELIVERANCE.
> And, of course, I'll remember the author's name *after* I sign off.
>         Regards -- Sidney.
>
> --
>
The author's name is Stephen Harper.  It was published in 1985 by
Sidgwick & Jackson of London.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 30 Aug 1994 09:06:21 -0700
From:    Jim Kelley <[email-masked]>
Subject: HELP NEEDED (please read this)

Can anyone help this person?

Best . . . Jim
======================================================================
 222    KNUT       08/30/94 02:17:24     HELP NEEDED (please read this)

Date: 30 Aug 1994 02:17:24 -0700
Sender:   Viet Nam War Discussion List       (VWAR-L)
From:     Knut Buescher                      (KNUT)
To:       Multiple recipients of list VWAR-L (VWAR-L)
Reply-To: Viet Nam War Discussion List       (VWAR-L)
Subject: HELP NEEDED (please read this)

Dear list members,

Probably this is not the right list for my request,
but I hope your experiences may help me in a way,
so here it goes:

SUBJECT:  Help needed in searching/finding my aunt's family

INTRODUCTION:
I am a 30 year old German working at the University of Muenster in
NorthWest Germany (Geography and Computer Sciences). Two weeks ago
my mother died after a long disease. While spending some time with
my relatives, we talked about one aim of my mother she did not
achieved - to find out what has happended to her sister since 1983.
Then I decided to try again to find out, and here are the facts
known by now:

FACTS:
My aunt was born in Germany on 10/5/1942 as GERTRAUD KRUEGER. In
the 60's, she married BILL LEE TURPEN, born on 10/23/1940 (Tulsa ?)
who works as teacher/instructor at some different NAVY bases. Since ~65,
they lived at different places in the USA, according to the NAVY base
Bill worked at. They got two sons LARS ERICH TURPEN born on
09/10/1966 at Nauheim/Germany and MICHAEL FRANCIS TURPEN born on
12/20/1969 at Stillwater/USA.

Until ~1979, they lived at  2505 Salmon, Irving, Texas 75062 where
they owned a house. Probably they do own this house until now (?).
In 1981, they moved to 13009 Cardiff, Olathe, Kansas 66062
In 1982, they moved to 438 Third Ave, Fort Ord, CA 93941 where
BILL TURPEN was trained at the Monterey NAVY base for some specific,
secret tasks. In winter 1982/83, BILL stayed half a year at a base in
Texas for further training. While this time, he was learning the Russian
language and got further top secret education and training. Seems that
he was trained for reconaissance missions in eastern europe.

In may 1983, BILL TURPEN has been moved to the big european base at
ROTA in Spain. He should start his work there on 10/05/1983. Some weeks
before the whole family moved to Rota, my aunt wrote that she is looking
forward to meet us in Spain. She invited us to visit her in autuum 1983.
It is quite sure that they took a military plane from Philadelphia to
Rota, but after that we never heard anything from the whole family.
This is even remarkable because my aunt is a really couragous woman who
would have contacted us in any way and under any circumstances during
this long period.

BILL TURPEN's post address during this time was

  Box 6665
  Good Fellow AFB
  Texas 76908

Letters to this address were re-addressed to

  Gen.Del.
  FPO
  SF, 96672

>From S.F., these letters came back to us - they had not been delivered.

Also the German Embassy at the US could not help us although they tried
two times to find BILL TURPEN.

POSSIBILITES:
One thing I could imagine that the plane crashed over the ocean on the
flight to Rota/Spain so the whole family died.
Another possibility is that they had changed her identities because of
those top secret reconn. missions and that they were forced to stop all
contacts to their "former life". This is more or less all I can think
of by now...

REQUEST FOR HELP:
I would be very thankful if someone could give me some hints on what
I can do to get more informations about what has happend to my aunt's
family. How can I find them ? Do they still live ? These questions
I would like to be able to answer some day. Has anyone some ideas what
to do ? Are there any NAVY offices I could ask for BILL TURPEN ? Any
help is greatly appreciated !

Thanks for your time and interest,
and please don't flame me for this non-vwar-related
posting on this list

If you can give me some hints, please respond DIRECTLY to my email
address:

[email-masked]

Thanks in advance,

Knut Buescher

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Knut Buescher
t4him - tools for hydrological information and modeling
University of Muenster, Institute for Geography,
Department of Landscape Ecology
Robert-Koch-Strasse 26-28, D - 48149 Muenster, Germany
Phone (+49) 251-298535
FAX   (+49) 251-271698
Email [email-masked]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 30 Aug 1994 12:26:24 EDT
From:    Patrick D Marsden <[email-masked]>
Subject: P-51GEN: P-51

All this talk about the P-51 vs. the P-47 and the mention of the
P-51's bottom radiator and intake got me thinking about a story my
grandfather told.

Caveat:  I have no official sources for this other than my now
    deceased grandfather but my father claims to have seen the
    aftermath.

                ---------------------------------
My grandfather was the civilian in charge of power production for
Ft. Knox, KY, during the war years.  The family also ran a small
farm several miles outside of town.  Over the course of the war,
my grandfather spent a lot of time with the pilots from a local
military field, this included many unofficial fights in miltary
aircraft.  Apparently they developed a habit of "borrowing" aircraft
and flying home for a meal, landing in an empty pasture near the farm.
According to my grandfather, they would "buzz" the house before
landing in order to tell them to get lunch ready (The pilots really
appreciated a home-cooked meal).  Anyway, on one such noon-time
adventure, my grandfather and the pilot acquired a P-51 from
the field, both squeezed into the single-seat cockpit, and proceeded
to buzz the farm.  On the 3th or 4th pass, they apparently got a little
too close to the chicken coop.  After another 30 seconds or so of
flight, the engine began running rough and eventually died.  The pilot
managed a gear-up landing in a tobacco field a little way down from the
farm.  Needless-to-say, the Army was not amused, especially when the
remains of a chicken were found in the air intake on the bottom of the
P-51.  I'm not quite sure what happened to either the pilot or my
grandfather as a result.  I do know ol' grandpa retired in the 70's as
a *NAVAL* powerplant engineer, switching immediately after the war
ended.
                -----------------------------------

The P-51's intake looks to be about 2 feet by 6 inches or so.  I guess
a chicken could fit in there.  I don't know if the unlucky foal passed
through the propeller before striking the intake.  Has anyone heard of
an experience with FOD (foreign object damage) in P-51's?  Does this
story sound reasonable or was it just an attempt to amuse a seven
year old boy?

Patrick Marsden
[email-masked]

PS.  My father didn't witness the crash or the chicken but
     he confirms a P-51 did end up in the tobacco field.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 30 Aug 1994 09:34:36 -0700
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 31-AUG-1944

On 31-AUG-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Northern France - The British XXX Corps reaches Amiens and crosses the Somme.
The US 7th Armoured Division (US XX Corps, 3rd Army) establishes a bridgehead
across the Meuse near Verdun. In Brittany, the VIII Corps operations against
Brest are temporarily suspended. The 4th Armoured Division (XII Corps, 3rd
Army) crosses the Meuse after establishing a bridgehead near Commercy. General
Montgomery is promoted to field-marshal.

Eastern Front - The 2nd Ukraine Front captures Bucharest, capital of Rumania.

Italian Front - The US IV Corps (5th Army) crosses the Arno. In the British
sector, the Polish II Corps continues the battle for Pesaro. Elements of the
Canadian I and British V Corps penetrate the Gothic line.

Iwo Jima/Bonin Islands - Aircraft from TF 38 under the command of RADM R.E.
Davison, begin an attack lasting three days against Iwo Jima and the Bonin
Islands. A naval bombardment by cruisers and destroyers also accompanies the
air attack.

New Guinea - Operations on Numfoor Island and the Sansapor area in the
Vogelkop peninsula are declared officially over.

Naval Dispatches
----------------
Submarine REDFIN (SS-272) lands supplies and evacuates some personnel from
Palawan Island, P.I.

Japanese minelayer SHIRATAKA sunk by submarine SEALION (SS-315), Luzon Strait,
Phlippine Islands.

The Homefront
-------------
Ration Changes - The OPA has made dried beans, fruit butters and prune juice
ration-free but has increased the point values for pineapple juice and canned
corn. Meat and butter values remain unchanged.

Army Needs Nurses - The American Red Cross says 4,000 recruits must be found
for the Army Nurse Corps during September to help care for increasing
casualties.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 30 Aug 1994 12:36:05 -0500
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: request for help--thanks!!

Thanks to everyone for their swift and helpful replies to my request for
a repost on Operation Rimau...several people replied to me directly so
I hope you'll excuse me using the list to thank you all collectively

Regards and thanks again

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 30 Aug 1994 11:36:45 -0500
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: NORWEGIAN RESISTANCE DURING WWII

>   There is, however, another side of the story.  Norwegians tend to
> concentrate
> on what happened here and to be uninformed on what went on elsewhere.  The
> Army
> spent the war in Scotland, training for an attack on Norway that never came
> about.  The fighting was done by the air and naval units.  The heaviest
> casualties, about half, were taken by the merchant marine.  The veterans of
> these service greatly resent the way in which what they did has been largely
> overlooked, while the resistance has been glorified.
>
>   I realize this may not be what people want to hear, but war stories often
> overlook the negative side.

This is not at all uncommon.

Just about everywhere, the history of the people "in the middle" are not as
well remembered.  The U.S. merchant fleet was devastated throughout the war,
mostly in the beginning when they weren't escorted and the coastal cities
never blacked out (making it a turkey shoot for the U-boats).  Yet, most people
don't even realize that ships were sunk within sight of the "safe" U.S. beaches
by enemy action.

Again, nothing against the merchant marine... At least in the U.S. a couple
of Liberty Ships remain in museum hands and kept operational.  The home
front workers are getting a lot more recognition than they ever have, which
is still far less than is deserved.  Our airshow this year began the local
efforts of recognizing the factory workers and home front challenges faced
by the war (somewhat successfully... The media picked up on it as (to them)
a very unique and different angle on local history... It has always been there,
it just took someone to point it out.  Heck, we even built subchasers here...
About as far away from either coast as you can get.  :-)

I guess just to note that this isn't unusual for Norway.  This is more or less
the way it is everywhere (and fortunately changing, albeit incredibly slowly
for as much time is left to record those histories...)

--
Robert J. Granvin
Southern Minnesota Wing Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 30 Aug 1994 09:38:06 -0700
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago FTP Archive

The August 1944 50 Years Ago articles are now available for downloading
via anonymous FTP.

Instructions for downloading 50 YA articles -

The articles are stored by month. To retrieve the articles by FTP, open host
"ftp.netcom.com", enter "anonymous" when prompted for login ID, enter your
Internet mail address when prompted for password. To change to the directory
where the articles are stored enter "cd /pub/jbd". The file name identifies
the month (example - aug1944.txt, contains the August 1944 articles).

----------
John Davis [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 30 Aug 1994 11:43:57 CST
From:    Charles Hendrix <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Information

For any who  might care -

I have gotten a great amount of help in  my search for information about
the 79th Inf Div.  The best lead came from Scott Hannon who led me to the
unit history "The Cross Of Lorraine: A Combat History of the 79th Inf. Div."
and those giving me the name of Battery  Press.  I  just got off the phone
with Battery and they have a few (handful) of copies of this book (1986
reprint) left.  The book is $39.95 + shipping.  Mine's incoming.  If  any
of you want one, Battery might still have them for awhile.

Again, thanks to all!

Charles Hendrix
CHARLIE@OSUVM1

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 30 Aug 1994 16:11:36 EDT
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Smokeless?/flashless...

This is one of those little talked aspects of WWII. I have read that the U.S.
did not have smokeless powder. There is a video where you can see the smoke
buildup of U.S. small arms its called something like Effects of US. Infantry
Weapons, it was filmed during the war. You can get a good idea of the smoke
build up particularly on machine guns.

The Germans did have smokeless powder.

Matthew Gajkowski

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 31 Aug 1994 09:04:35 +1000
From:    "Wilber Williams, Prentice Centre" <[email-masked]>
Subject: NEWS: B-24D found near Rockhampton, Australia

There was an item on the 6pm news, Channel 9, Brisbane, Australia, 30th
August 1994 about the crashed Liberator. The item was accompanied by still
pictures of the "Beautiful Betsy", plus film footage of Liberators flying,
and views of the wreckage. Here's the transcript:

(Heather Foord, Newsreader)

"First pictures tonight of the wreck of a World War 2 bomber which crashed
on a flight from Darwin to Brisbane almost 50 years ago. The aircraft went
down near Rockhampton; the exact spot is still a secret."

(Rebecca Jenson, Reporter)

"The chance finding in a remote location stunned a National Parks and
Wildlife Ranger, who found the mangled wreck while backburning bush near
Rockhampton. He first spotted the plane's propellor."

(Mark Roe, Ranger)

"...And when I saw that I was quite speechless, and a bit awed by the
situation."

(Rebecca Jenson, Reporter)

"In its heyday, the Liberator, known as 'Beautiful Betsy', was a huge war
machine. The bomber was damaged on a flight from the United States to
Darwin in 1943, and served out its time as a transport plane. It was on a
supply flight when it crashed in February, 1945."

(Wing Commander Bruce Hudson, RAAF)

"Unfortunately, it was flying from Darwin to Brisbane, and we can only
speculate what happenned. It may have got involved in some bad weather,
but crashed here."

(Rebecca Jenson, Reporter)

"Spitfire pilot Roy Cannon, a passenger on the flight, dies along with
five other US personnel and two British crew. The gaping fuselage,
instrument panels and parachutes litter the site. A US recovery team will
spend three weeks excavating the area."

(Sergeant Randy Brown, US Army)

"Our specific purpose is to try to find any traces of remains or personal
effects and take back to the families of the service members."

(Rebecca Jenson, Reporter)

"No remains have yet been found, but investigators hope to uncover some
evidence to close the final chapter of the 'Beautiful Betsy'."

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Wilber WILLIAMS                            [email-masked]      |
|Prentice Centre                            Telephone : +61 7 365 4232   |
|The University of Queensland               Facsimile : +61 7 365 4477   |
|Brisbane Qld 4072  AUSTRALIA                                            |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 30 Aug 1994 14:29:30 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re[2]: [WEAP] German "H-Class" battleships

>Subject: Re: [WEAP] German "H-Class" battleships
>Date:    8/29/94 9:12 AM

>Also for anyone else,  we (USA) were developing a MONTANA class battleship
>right?  Bigger than the IOWAs With close to the size of the Yamato or Musashi
>yet with  12  16' .50s.  right???

>can anyone verify this and provide details and specs?

>Astounded,

>Robert Hohlt, Jr.

Robert,

I have this info, and will post it (providing that nobody beats me to it)
tonight or tomorrow.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 30 Aug 1994 23:15:00 UTC
From:    "Edward S. Miller" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: A Joint U.S.-Japanese

  An interesting sidebar about today's Japan: A book I wrote, =War Plan
Orange: The U.S. Strategy to Defeat Japan, 1897-1945= (Annapolis: US Naval
Institute Press, 1991) was published last month in Japanese as =Orenji
Keikaku=. It attracted media attention because both ends of the political
spectrum have brandished it for their anti-American agendas.  The left wing
wants the American military out of Japan, disbanding of Japan's Self Defense
Forces, and security through financial and cultural power. The right wing
wants America out because it favors a rearmed Japan and an assertive foreign
policy in East Asia.  Both sides pounced on the fact that the US planned for
a Pacific war for four decades.  This is interpreted as undermining the
conventional view that the US was an innocent victim of attack.  Such was
not my intention.  US planners correctly anticipated Japan would attack some
day and drew up war plans accordingly.  (Japanese planners also wrote war
plans against America, but that is beside the point.)
   Edward S. Miller    Stamford, Connecticut    [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 30 Aug 1994 23:15:00 UTC
From:    "Edward S. Miller" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Info wanted: 309th at Remagen

  Can anyone point me to a unit history of the 309th Infantry Regiment, 78th
Division, 1st Army?  My ex-boss was with the unit when it crossed the
Remagen Bridge over the Rhine in March 1945, the day after it was captured,
and helped hold the right bank in those critical next few days.
  Edward S. Miller    Stamford, Conn.      [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 30 Aug 1994 20:33:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: NEWS: B-24D found near Rockhampton, Australia

 >There was an item on the 6pm news, Channel 9, Brisbane, Australia, 30th
 >August 1994 about the crashed Liberator. The item was accompanied by still
 >pictures of the "Beautiful Betsy", plus film footage of Liberators flying,
 >and views of the wreckage. Here's the transcript:

MUCH DELETED

Thanks Wilbur!

The Army team is probably out of the outfit in Hawaii that tries to
find, and identify, all remains of US servicemen.  There was a book
written several years ago that was divided into two parts.  The
first part was about a B-24 that had gone down in New Guinea and
was discovered in the 1970s or 80s.  They described how the Army
team went to the site, dug, sifted, etc. for remains, personnel
possesions, etc. and very carefully marked everything on a map.
The second part dealt with the unit in Hawaii that tries to match
remains to known personnel on the aircraft.  This unit was headed
by a Japanese man who started in the business in Japan just after
WWII and has been at it ever since.  He is now a US citizen.

Jack McKillop

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 30 Aug 1994 20:35:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 31 AUG 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
THURSDAY, 31 AUGUST 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  F-6, North American Mustang
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 6 B-25s bomb targets of
opportunity at Katha and 3 hit bridges at Bawgyo and Hsenwi.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 12 B-24s bomb Takao harbor,
damaging the dock area and claiming 2 tankers sunk; 14 B-25s attack Tien Ho,
White Cloud, Kai Tek, and Hengyang Airfields; 8 B-25s attack numerous trucks
S of Sintsiang and near Sinshih, hit roads S of Nanyo and damage a freighter
near Sinshih; and 60+ fighter-bombers attack trucks, barracks, supplies,
rivercraft, bridges and troops in or near Sinshih, Changsha, Yangtien,
Hengyang, Nanyo, Siangtan, Teian, and Shihhweiyao.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 594: 6 of 6 B-17s drop
leaflets in France during the night.
  37 B-24s and C-47s fly CARPETBAGGER missions during the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, 99 B-26s and A-20s bomb
an ammunition dump at Foret d'Arques and gun positions at Ile de Cezembre;
fighters fly armed reconnaissance in the Amiens, Saint-Quentin, Albert, and
Arras areas, ground forces cover for 3 armored divisions, battleship cover,
and also dive-bomb Ile de Cezembre; HQ 70th Fighter Wing moves from Aillieres
to Versailles; the following squadrons assigned to the 67th Tactical
Reconnaissance Group move: 30th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron from Le
Molay to Toussus le Noble with F-5s; and the 109th Tactical Reconnaissance
Squadron from Toussus le Noble to Buc with F-6s; the 386th and 387th Fighter
Squadrons, 365th Fighter Group move from Azeville to Lignerolles with P-47s;
the 587th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 394th Bombardment Group (Medium),
moves from Holmsley, England to Tour-en-Bassin with B-26s; and the 597th,
598th and 599th Bombardment Squadrons (Medium), 397th Bombardment Group
(Medium), move from Hurn, England to Gorges with B-26s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Rumania, 45 P-51s strafe the
airfield at Reghin, while 97 others strafe airfields at Oradea and Kecskemet,
Hungary; fighters claim a record number of 150+ aircraft destroyed on the
ground; and starting Operation REUNION (the evacuation of US airmen interned
in Rumania), 36 B-17s evacuate US airmen from Bucharest (which falls to the
Soviet Army today) to Bari, Italy.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium bombers attack
railroad bridges in the Po Valley, cutting the bridge at Mira; and A-20s
attack targets of opportunity in the Po Valley during the night of 30/31 Aug
and along with fighter-bombers hit communications N of the Arno River. Other
fighter-bombers attack communications targets in France as the US Seventh
Army pushes toward Lyon.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): Saipan Island-based P-47s strafe gun positions
at the airfield on Pagan Island. Yap and Pagan Islands are bombed by single
B-24s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

31/0038Z AUG

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 30 Aug 1994 21:02:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: P-47 vs P-51

RE: The discussion of P-47 vs. P-51 losses.

Yesterday, I published a list of P-47 and P-51 Fighter Groups in
the Eighth Air Force effective 1 Sep 44.  Someone responded and
asked about Spitfires.  By Sep 44 they were long gone but it got me
to thinking so here is a list of every fighter type flown by Eighth
Air Force Fighter Groups and other units in WWII with the dates
they were flown.

P-38 GROUPS (Jun 42-Sep 44)
-----------
  1st Fighter Group (Jun-Sep 42) (To Twelfth Air Force)
 14th Fighter Group (Aug-Sep 42) (To Twelfth Air Force)
 20th Fighter Group (Aug 43-Jul 44)
 55th Fighter Group (Sep 43-Jul 44)
 78th Fighter Group (Dec 42-Feb 43)
 82d  Fighter Group (Sep-Dec 42) (To Twelfth Air Force)
364th Fighter Group (Feb-Jul 44)
479th Fighter Group (May-Sep 44)
496th Fighter Training Group (Dec 43-late '44)

P-47 GROUPS (Jan 43-Oct 45)
-----------
  4th Fighter Group (Mar 43-Feb 44)
 56th Fighter Group (Jan 43-Oct 45)
 78th Fighter Group (Jan 43-Jan 45)
352d  Fighter Group (Jul 43-Apr 44)
353d  Fighter Group (Jun 43-Nov 44)
355th Fighter Group (Jul 43-Mar 44)
356th Fighter Group (Aug 43-Nov 44)
358th Fighter Group (Oct 43-Feb 44) (To Ninth Air Force)
359th Fighter Group (Oct 43-May 44)
361st Fighter Group (Nov 43-May 44)
495th Fighter Training Group (Dec 43-Jun 45)
  5th Emergency Rescue Squadron (May 44-May 45)

P-51 GROUPS (Dec 43-Nov 45)
-----------
  4th Fighter Group (Feb 44-Nov 45)
 20th Fighter Group (Jul 44-Oct 45)
 55th Fighter Group (Jul 44-Jul 45)
 78th Fighter Group (Dec 44-Oct 45)
339th Fighter Group (Apr 44-Oct 45)
352d  Fighter Group (Apr 44-Nov 45)
353d  Fighter Group (Oct 44-Oct 45)
355th Fighter Group (Mar 44-Jul 45)
356th Fighter Group (Nov 44-Nov 45)
357th Fighter Group (Jan 44-Jul 45)
359th Fighter Group (May 44-Nov 45)
361st Fighter Group (May 44-Nov 45)
364th Fighter Group (Jul 44-Oct 45)
479th Fighter Group (Sep 44-Sep 45)
496th Fighter Training Group (Dec 43-Jun 45)

P-400 FIGHTER GROUPS (Oct-Dec 42)
--------------------
350th Fighter Group (Oct-Dec 42) (To Twelfth Air Force)

SPITFIRE GROUPS (Jun 42-Apr 43)
---------------
  4th Fighter Group (Sep 42-Apr 43)
 31st Fighter Group (Jun-Sep 42) (To Twelfth Air Force)
 52d  Fighter Group (Jul-Sep 42) (To Twelfth Air Force)
350th Fighter Group (Oct-Dec 42) (To Twelfth Air Force)

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 30 Aug 1994 21:46:05 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: U.S. "war plans" for the Pacific

Contingency plans in reaction to being attacked are not
  culpable.

Planning an unprovoked attack on Japan would be.

Could someone (who read the book) summarize the nature of
  these "war plans"?

Thanks.

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 30 Aug 1994 22:21:55 PDT
From:    Jim Brady <[email-masked]>
Subject: FW: GEN: MAINLY ABOUT THE

---------------Original Message---------------

 The same people, I believe, mounted an exhibit on the internment of
the Japanese at the beginning of WWII, and that, too, smacked of PC. It will be
a sad day for the world if these PCers take it over. Why, I won't even be able
to enjoy a pipeload of the best. Ben Frank

----------End of Original Message----------

I believe the issue (and what we're all gathered here for) is to be HC. If it happened,
it happened. Context is important, but I think *not* letting our young people know
that Japanese Americans lost their homes, businesses and savings in a round-up is
a disservice. I would like to have been taught more about this in high school. You
have to learn from mistakes if you want to make things better. Or at least, not
repeat mistakes.

What was the official number of those who were interned? I have also heard some
were not released until 1946. Does anybody know if that is true?

Thanks,

--Jim

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 30 Aug 1994 20:51:35 -0700
From:    Ed Kettler <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: [WEAP] German "H-Class" battleships

USS Montana     BB-67
Builder:        Philadelphia Navy Yard
Authorized:     19 July 1940
Cancelled:      21 July 1943

Std Disp:       60,500
Full Disp:      70,500
Length Overall: 925'
Length, W/L:    890'
Beam:           121'
Draft (max)     36'

Weapons:
Main Batttery:  12 16"/50 Mk 7 in 4 triple turrets
Secondary:      20 5"/54 Mk 16 in 10 twin turrets
AA:             32 40mm
                20 20mm

Armor:
Belt:           16.1" tapered to 10.2" on 1" backing
Deck:           9.92 to 10.35 total
Barbettes:      18 to 21.3"
Turrets:        Face:  22.5"  Side:  10"  Back: 12"  Roof: 9.5"
Secondaries:    2.5"
Conning tower:  18"

Max speed:      28 knots at 70,500
Complement:     2247

From:   US Battleships of World War II, Dulin and Garzke

Ed Kettler                                       [email-masked]

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 29 Aug 1994 to 30 Aug 1994
*************************************************