Subject: WWII-L Digest - 25 Aug 1994 to 26 Aug 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 27 Aug 1994 00:01:04 -0400

There are 45 messages totalling 1730 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. GEN: Churchill, Conventry, Ultra (Backround info wanted (4)
  2. Information
  3. Seaplane Spitfire not all that bad (2)
  4. <No subject given> (2)
  5. 50TH: LIBERATION OF PARIS (2)
  6. INF: USN Chronology 08-26-94
  7. HIST: Personal military records
  8. German squad vs. U.S. Squad
  9. Free French Forces
 10. MEDIA:B-29 Recovery
 11. Liberation of Paris etc
 12. International law in ww ii (4)
 13. Media: Lib. of Paris
 14. Paris speech re:liberation
 15. MEDIA:Commandos Reinterred (2)
 16. MEDIA:Paris Celebrates
 17. MEDIA:B-29 in Greenland
 18. MEDIA:Paris Celebrates II
 19. MEDIA:Russian Plans for 50th
 20. Gen. Choltitz refuses Hitler
 21. INF: 50 Years Ago - 27-AUG-1944
 22. Hollandia Invasions
 23. Film: SPITFIRE (2)
 24. Re[2]: German squad vs. U.S. Squad
 25. Paris liberated: 50 yrs
 26. MEDIA:Old Aircraft
 27. Smokeless?/flashless? powder for Axis only? (2)
 28. INFORMATION (3)
 29. GEN: CHURCHILL, CO
 30. 50TH: LIBERATION O
 31. [INF] USAAF 27 AUG 44

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Aug 1994 00:56:14 -0400
From:    John Stroebel <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: Churchill, Conventry, Ultra (Backround info wanted

There is a very interesting 2-book set, published around 1988, "Bodyguard
of Lies". (sorry, I do not know the author) The title came from a quote (I
believe by Churchill) that "In time of war, truth needs to be protected by a
 bodyguard of lies". This may be the book refered to, but I do not think so.
        This book deals with the allied successes in breaking German
cypher in WWII through the "Enigma" de-coding machine, an early computer.
Evedence is given that Churchill did have knowlege of the raid on
Coventry, well in advance and did not put one extra plane in the air or one
extra AAA in place. His reason was that to do so might tip off the Germans
 that their code system was cracked.

On Thu, 25 Aug 1994, Robert T. Moore wrote:

> Hello, Frank!
>
> > >        2. Did Churchill allow the bombing of Conventry to occur in order
> > >           to protect the secret of Ultra?
>
>     I think this episode has been proven to have no base in reality.
> It may have been William Stephenson's book that tended to enhance
> this idea, but research has shown this to be false.
>
>     Hope this helps.
>
>     Terry
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Aug 1994 00:58:52 -0400
From:    John Stroebel <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Information

Would anyone know how I might obtain the military records of a WWII vet?
I lost my father when I was a boy, and would be interested in reading his
records. TIA, JS

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 25 Aug 1994 23:21:03 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Seaplane Spitfire not all that bad

Yes, the Spit started out as a design by Vickers Supermarine for a seaplane
racing a/c designed to compete -- and win -- the 1932 Schneider Trophy
International Air Race.
That leslie Howard movie you mentined was FIRST OF THE FEW, a film
biography of Mitchell, the Spit's designer, who died of cancer just before
his creation flew.
Regards -- Sidney.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Aug 1994 10:33:14 +0200
From:    283600-Mataigne <[email-masked]>
Subject: <No subject given>

(Roger) Brad Coon writes:
>  The Mayor of Paris apparently delivered a speech in which
>he spoke of the French troops who landed at Normandy and liberated
>Paris.  He not only ignored the role played by the other Allied forces
>at the time but also ignored an American delegation of veterans who
>had been present 50 years ago.

This is not true. I heard the Mayor's speech this morning (I am
Belgian, french is my 1st language), and I heard he mentioned both the
french armies *and* "the Allied forces".

However, it is true that De Gaulle delivered several speeches in 1944
about the liberation of France and Paris, in which he didn't say a word
of the Allied forces, and gave the illusion that the liberation was the
work of the french troops alone. This is particularly striking in his
D-day speech, and the one he pronounced on the day Paris was
liberated.  I have always been scandalized by these speeches. I guess
he was using a simple technique of "disinformation" with a precise
political goal: to legitimate his de facto, still weak power with
bright military actions, and restore the prestige of the french
forces.  WWII historians could perhaps say more about this.

I don't think anybody in France is bluffed by this gross propaganda to
the point of ignoring the American contribution to the liberation of
Paris!  Chirac, Mayor of Paris and probably a candidate president next
year, is certainly not willing to appear dishonnest and indecent.

                        Thierry Mataigne
                        Software Engineer
                        [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Aug 1994 06:35:00 -0500
From:    "Colin Brace (617)726-5085" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Seaplane Spitfire not all that bad

Date: Fri, 26 Aug 1994 06:25:00 EST
From: "Colin Brace"@MR.MGH.HARVARD.EDU
Subject: Re: Seaplane Spitfire not all that bad
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------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Aug 1994 07:14:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 50TH: LIBERATION OF PARIS

 >I don't know if anyone else caught Good Morning America this morning,
 >but they had a segment on the current celebrations.  I heard this
 >while I was shaving so I can only hope that I have the gist of it
 >correct.  The Mayor of Paris apparently delivered a speech in which
 >he spoke of the French troops who landed at Normandy and liberated
 >Paris.  He not only ignored the role played by the other Allied forces
 >at the time but also ignored an American delegation of veterans who
 >had been present 50 years ago.
 >Considering this slight as well as the F-111s we lost because they
 >wouldn't allow an overflight to get to Libya a few years ago, I have
 >to admit that the next time France needs a little liberation help, I
 >am not exactly going to be an enthusiastic supporter.
 >*************************************************
 >(Roger) Brad Coon            "Lions are basically

I was surfing CBS and NBC TV News last and caught two items:

1. The NBC News reporter echoed the French line, i.e., a French armored
division liberated Paris.  (Sorry John Ausland, you must have been dreaming
when you wrote that letter to your folks.)  NBC News has an e-mail address
on Internet so I fired off a message telling them they should get their act
together and at least mention the US Army if not the 4th Infantry Division.
(Especially since one of the networks had a program on the night before
with vets of the 4th discussing the whole thing.)  If any of you want NBC's
e-mail addresses, send me e-mail.

2. A US vet from Philadelphia commented that if you listen to the claims of
the French people, there must have been several million French in the
Resistance movement.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Aug 1994 04:46:50 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 08-26-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
08/26 Sat.  Japanese naval vessel sunk:
             Destroyer SAMIDARE, by submarine BATFISH (SS-310), off
              Palau Islands, Caroline Islands.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Aug 1994 06:57:34 -0500
From:    Michael D Wallick <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: Churchill, Conventry, Ultra (Backround info wanted

 On Fri, 26 Aug 1994, John Stroebel wrote:

> There is a very interesting 2-book set, published around 1988, "Bodyguard
> of Lies". (sorry, I do not know the author) The title came from a quote (I
> believe by Churchill) that "In time of war, truth needs to be protected by a
>  bodyguard of lies". This may be the book refered to, but I do not think so.
>         This book deals with the allied successes in breaking German
> cypher in WWII through the "Enigma" de-coding machine, an early computer.
> Evedence is given that Churchill did have knowlege of the raid on
> Coventry, well in advance and did not put one extra plane in the air or one
> extra AAA in place. His reason was that to do so might tip off the Germans
>  that their code system was cracked.
>
> On Thu, 25 Aug 1994, Robert T. Moore wrote:
>
> > Hello, Frank!
> >
> > > >        2. Did Churchill allow the bombing of Conventry to occur in order
> > > >           to protect the secret of Ultra?
> >
> >     I think this episode has been proven to have no base in reality.
> > It may have been William Stephenson's book that tended to enhance
> > this idea, but research has shown this to be false.
> >
> >     Hope this helps.
> >
> >     Terry
> >
>
BODYGUARD OF LIES was written by Anthony Cave Brown and published by
Harper & Row in 1975.  It was reprinted by Quill/William Morrow in 1991.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Aug 1994 08:03:37 -0400
From:    Warren Thompson <[email-masked]>
Subject: HIST: Personal military records

Those who are looking for military records for fathers, brothers, mothers, et
al., might try the library at the Army War College in Carlisle PA. I
understand they have a complete archive of such information.

-- Warren Thompson
LEBANON VALLEY COLLEGE
Annville PA 17003

[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Aug 1994 07:53:26 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: <No subject given>

On Fri, 26 Aug 1994 10:33:14 +0200 283600-Mataigne said:
>I don't think anybody in France is bluffed by this gross propaganda to
>the point of ignoring the American contribution to the liberation of
>Paris!  Chirac, Mayor of Paris and probably a candidate president next
>year, is certainly not willing to appear dishonnest and indecent.
>
>                        Thierry Mataigne

Besides. . . one could always chalk up this supposed faux pas to the Parisians,
as opposed to the rest of France (-:

ken koester
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Aug 1994 08:03:01 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: German squad vs. U.S. Squad

On Thu, 25 Aug 1994 15:39:24 GMT-6 Robert T. Moore said:
>> Do you think that the typical German infantry or Panzergrenadier squad
>> (Gruppe)of 1944 -45 was better in terms of equipment, training, fire power,
>> etc than the typical U.S. infantry squadof 1944-45?
>
>    No. The typical U.S. infantry squad of 1944-45, within that time
>frame, to my mind, was the best equipped of any fielded during the
>war. At that point in time, German weapons' development, was beginning
>to fall back on last-resort equipment that was very faulty, stop-
>gap, and bordered on the novel. However, the standard German infantry
>weapons, such as the Karabiner 98, and P-38 were still most reliable.
>If memory serves me correctly, the development of the MP-43 was a
>design that was superior to the Thompson's that were used.

I believe it is Dupuy who indicates that as late as March '45, *on average*,
a hundred Germans were roughly equal to about 110-120 British or Americans,
a ratio that had been steadily declining since the early days of the war.
Averages, of course, do not speak to any one unit, and one would expect to
find a number of Allied units superior to their counterparts.  I don't know
whether Dupuy attributes the German advantage to tactics, training,
leadership, or equipment--possibly all four.  In any case, one would expect
even more variation at the squad level.

Seems to me I recall a posting from early this year about the number of
weapons available to a German, as opposed to American, infantry division in
1944 at the time of the invasion.  The German division had 2 or 3 times as
many automatic weapons as the American one, if memory serves, and one would
assume this advantage carried right on over to the squad level.

ken koester
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Aug 1994 07:50:35 CDT
From:    Robert Hohlt <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Free French Forces

Scott Hannon, thanks for the information.
To you and the list I have a few questions.

What are the international rules (if any) for countries that capitulate?
When a country surrenders does it null any state or declaration of war
present at the time?

When France had reestablished its government did they RE-DECLARE war on
Germany?  I know that the Free French forces and the resistance
were active when France was occupied, but after, when they had their
country back did they (French government)formally re-declare war on
Germany, or just continue as if surrender had not happened?

Enquiring mind wants to know!

Robert Hohlt, Jr.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Aug 1994 09:22:03 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA:B-29 Recovery

>From the DoD Newswire 24 August 1994

:NORTH POLE B 29 MAY FLY HOME

   COPENHAGEN, Denmark  -- Nearly five decades after making an
emergency landing near the North Pole, a vintage B-29 bomber may
finally fly home this month.
   Parked on a frozen lake in Greenland about 600 miles south of the
pole, the bomber has been frozen in remarkably good condition since
its crew was forced to land on Feb. 21, 1947, during a spy flight.
   An 11-member U.S. expedition has been working on the bomber for
several weeks, said Cmdr. Erik Thomsen, a Danish army liaison officer
at the U.S. Air Force Base in Thule, 220 miles to the south.
   Their dream is to fly the B-29 -- named Kee Bird -- to the base and
then on to the United States for more repairs before selling it. Of
about 4,000 of the bombers built during World War II, only one is
believed to be still flying.
   The recovery team has replaced two of the plane's four
2,000-horsepower engines, Thomsen said. They must replace the other
two engines and the tires before taking off, but overall the B-29 is
in excellent shape, he said.
   The bomber had taken off from Fairbanks, Alaska, on Feb. 20, 1947,
but had to make an emergency landing after the plane went off course.
The crew sent out distress signals and was picked up unharmed two days
later, leaving the plane behind.
   "The navigation gear went nuts because of the vicinity of the
magnetic North Pole," said Thomsen, who is a liaison between the team
and Greenland authorities.
   Russ Jordan, who had been the co-pilot on the ill-fated flight, is
back at the plane trying to get it airborne.
   "It hasn't been a week that's gone by that I haven't thought about
the Kee Bird," he told the San Diego Union-Tribune newspaper.
   The expedition is led by Tom Hess, a former Army pilot from Newport
Beach, Calif.; Darryl Greenamyer, a retired Lockheed test pilot from
Rancho Santa Fe, Calif.; and Ascher Ward, an airplane restoration
specialist from Los Angeles.
   In 1992, another American expedition recovered eight U.S. aircraft
that had made an emergency landing in 1942 on an ice cap in
southeastern Greenland.
   While those planes were buried under nearly 300 feet of snow and
ice, the B-29 stood nearly ice-free for decades.
   Government claims to the aircraft have been given up to the private
B-29 expedition, which was organized by the Institute of Aeronautical
and Archaeological Research in Auburn, Calif.
   The team has obtained extra funding from the U.S. National Air and
Space Museum in Washington.
   The first B-29 was flown in combat on June 5, 1944, in an attack on
Japanese positions in Bangkok, Thailand. The planes had 11 50-caliber
machine guns in five turrets and could carry up to 20,000 pounds of
bombs.
   Two B-29s were used on Aug. 6 and 9, 1945, to drop atomic bombs on
Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Japan.

========

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Aug 1994 14:36:36 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Liberation of Paris etc

re the on-going distress experienced by some of our US colleagues on the
list regarding the liberation of Paris as an exclusive success for
French forces serves as a reminder for all of us I believe to be
careful to include all nationalities when describing battles etc.

One can sometimes get the impression that the United States won
WWII single-handed and for myself, I am trying not to use the
term "British" forces when I really mean british and
empire/commonwealth armies (Canada, New Zealand, Australia etc etc)

As beloved neighbours of the French, I'm not really surprised that
they recaptured France single-handed - In fact, DeGaulle did it all
himself didn't he?

you gotta hand it to 'em :-)

Steve Baldwin
[email-masked]

PS - to be fair to DeGaulle, he did block Britain's entry to the
European Community...I would wish he were immortal just on that count...

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Aug 1994 08:50:27 -0500
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <[email-masked]>
Subject: International law in ww ii

While reading the daily Combat Chronology of the US Army Air Forces, a
question occurred to me, that maybe someone on the list could answer.

Did the US actually declare war against the German allies in Eastern
Europe (i.e., Rumania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Slovakia)?  We were obviously
bombing targets in those countries.  Logically, there should have been
no distinction between strategic targets in Germany and those in other
countries, but LEGALLY (which is definitely not always logical) we were
attacking neutral countries.  Does anyone know if this question was
ever raised, either during or after the war?  If we were not at war
with those countries, did we maintain embassies there during the war?

After all, stranger things happened during World War II.  If you crashed
in Russia after bombing Germany, you could be returned to England.  If
you crashed in Russia after bombing Japan, you were interned, in not
very pleasant conditions.
TIA
Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University
School of Law

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Aug 1994 14:32:57 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Subject: 50TH: LIBERATION OF PARIS

  August 26, 1994

  Brad Coon had the following to say in a message:

I don't know if anyone else caught Good Morning America this morning,
but they had a segment on the current celebrations.  I heard this
while I was shaving so I can only hope that I have the gist of it
correct.  The Mayor of Paris apparently delivered a speech in which
he spoke of the French troops who landed at Normandy and liberated
Paris.  He not only ignored the role played by the other Allied forces
at the time but also ignored an American delegation of veterans who
had been present 50 years ago.

COMMENTS

  The only US networks available to me here in Oslo are NBC and CNN.  NBC
devoted most of its coverage to the march of the 28th Division through Paris
several days after the city's liberation, as a part of its Voices series.  CNN
had a five minute segment in its news broadcast, which was quite good.  The only
defect, from my point of view, was its failure to mention the role of the US 4th
Infantry Division.  This, however, is common.  As the French weekly Le
Point commented in its comprehensive article, the role of the 4th is generally
forgotten.

  This is no accident.  De Gaulle established the line in his famous statement
on entering Paris.  Paris was liberated by the Parisians, with some help from
the French 2nd Armored Division.  Ever since then, the French authorities have
refused to give any official recognition to the 4th, not only for the liberation
of Paris but for its role in Overlord and the liberation of France.  As you can
imagine, this is a sore point with 4th Division veterans.

  I wrote an article in the International Herald Tribune in 1992, drawing
attention to this and suggesting the French authorities use the 50th Anniversary
to do something about this.  Nothing, however, was done.

  The best coverage of the events yesterday was a two hour broadcast last night
of the ceremony in front of the Hotel de Ville, on French television.  This was
quite a spectacle.  In his speech, Mitterand said that Paris was liberated by
the Parisians, with the help of the French 2nd Armored Division, and "some help
from the Allies."

  Although I do not like this, I understand it.  WWII was a humiliating
experience for the French.  Given the fact that the Allies were mainly
responsible for the liberation of the country, we must at least allow the French
credit for the liberation of Paris.  Furthermore, while the 4th Division was
there, it did not do a great deal of fighting in the city.

  As you can imagine, with this background I was happy to be able to get an
article in the IHT yesterday, which said essentially the same thing as the
message I posted yesterday.  Hence, at least the readers of the Trib will know
that we were there.

  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

  PS The French broadcasts have carried some very good footage of the
liberation, including of the leaders of the resistance at work and the
commotion at the Place de la Concorde on August 26.  With regard to the
latter, they understandably did not explain that those 300 dead and wounded
were the result of firing by the crowd.  I even saw tanks firing point
blank with their guns at the Ministry of Marine.  The marks are still
there on the building.  You can imagine what happened when those shells
fragmented.  It was a sad sight.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Aug 1994 10:21:56 -0400
From:    "Mr. Scott Hannon" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Media: Lib. of Paris

Thierry Mataigne writes:

re: 50th anniversary of the liberation of Paris

>I heard the Mayor's speech this morning ...
>and I heard he mentioned both the french armies *and* "the Allied forces".

Good for him. Sounds fair to me. Maybe the US TV people need better
translators.

>However, it is true that De Gaulle delivered several speeches in 1944
>about the liberation of France and Paris, in which he didn't say a word
>of the Allied forces, and gave the illusion that the liberation was the
>work of the french troops alone.

Part of this snub was likely pay back for the failure of the British/CW
or Americans to inform him of D-Day until immediately before the actual
landings.

Scott.
Scott Hannon, Fri Aug 26 1994 ([email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Aug 1994 09:24:04 EST
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Paris speech re:liberation

I gladly stand corrected concerning the Mayor's speech.  Time and time
again I reminded to be distrustful of what I hear in the mainstream media
and still they get me :)
Thanks,
*************************************************
(Roger) Brad Coon            "Lions are basically
[email-masked]          scavengers of
[email-masked]    hyaena kills."
                              Hans Kruuk

Kill a lion, save a hyaena!
Boycott Disney lionist propaganda!
*************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Aug 1994 10:27:36 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA:Commandos Reinterred

>From the DoD Newswire 25 August 1994

Rest in Peace

Any enlightenment on "Operation Rimau"?

=======

:FUNERAL SET FOR WWII COMMANDOS

   SINGAPORE, Aug. 24  -- The Australian High Commission said
Wednesday that the recently discovered remains of two officers killed
in a legendary World War II commando raid nearly 50 years ago will be
buried Saturday at the Kranji War Cemetary in Singapore.
   Sergeant Colin Cameron of the 2nd Australian Imperial Force and Sub
Lieutenant Gregor Riggs, a British sailor of the Royal Navy Volunteer
Reserve, who took part in "Operation Rimau," will be laid to rest with
full military honors, the commission said.

======

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Aug 1994 10:30:44 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA:Paris Celebrates

>From the DoD Newswire 25 August 1994

:PARIS TO MARK WW2 LIBERATION

   PARIS  -- Parisians geared up for a huge celebration to mark
the 50th anniversary Thursday of the city's liberation from Nazi
occupation.
   It was Aug. 25, 1944 that the German army occupying Paris
surrendered to French and U.S. troops, sparking wild celebrations in
the capital. The liberation will be commemorated with a huge party
Thursday night on the Place de la Concorde and up the Champs Elysees
avenue.
   Residents braced for massive traffic snarls as huge swaths of the
capital were to be closed to automobiles in preparation for a march
through Paris.
   Flags of France along with those of the United States, Britain and
Canada -- the Allies whose D-Day invasion in June 1944 began the
liberation of France -- graced doorways, government buildings and
hotels.
   The liberation of Paris is heavily symbolic and close to the hearts
of the French. It also marks the acceptance by the French of Gen.
Charles de Gaulle, who was known to most only by his voice through
radio broadcasts from Britain but later became France's president.
   On Wednesday, a vintage BC-6 propeller airplane circled low over
the Ile de la Cite, the island in the Seine at the center of Paris.
The same day five decades ago, a similar aircraft overflew the island
dropping leaflets with a message from Gen. Philippe Leclerc: "Hold
steady, we are coming."
   Leclerc's march down the Champs Elysees at the head of the 2nd
Armored Division he commanded will be recreated Friday evening with
about 8,000 children parading down the broad avenue.
   On Thursday, tanks and other military vehicles will roll by the
ornate facade of City Hall, or Hotel de Ville, as they did 50 years
ago.
   Fireworks will light the sky from the Hotel de Ville, and a parade
Friday evening will re-enact de Gaulle and Leclerc's victorious
passage down the Champs Elysees.
   Children will carry scores of huge blue, white and red banners
symbolizing the French flag that was banned from Paris from 1940-44.

=====

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Aug 1994 10:39:56 -0400
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: International law in ww ii

>you crashed in Russia after bombing Japan, you were interned, in not
>very pleasant conditions.
>TIA
>Tim J. Watts
>Valparaiso University
>School of Law
Is there anyone who can elaberate on the conditions for internees?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka                                         National Warplane Museum
Cornell University                                 Geneseo, New York
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Aug 1994 10:57:34 -0400
From:    "Mr. Scott Hannon" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: Churchill, Conventry, Ultra (Backround info wanted

re: _Bodyguard of Lies_

Michael wrote:
>BODYGUARD OF LIES was written by Anthony Cave Brown and published by
>Harper & Row in 1975.  It was reprinted by Quill/William Morrow in 1991.

This was very close in time to the release of Winterbotham _The Ultra
Secret_....essentially writen pre-_Ultra Secret_. For that reason alone
I wonder why a major publisher would want to re-publish it. Was this
new edition a reprint or a revised rewrite?

As for the story about Coventry, that has been shown to be more-or-less
false; a conclusion based on only part of the story. This would be a
good topic to add to the FAQ IMO.

Terry wrote:
> > It may have been William Stephenson's book that tended to enhance
> > this idea, but research has shown this to be false.

Speaking of _A Man Called Intrepid_, Brown's book again runs into
controversy here. The book is considered unreliable by some experts.
For those interested in the particulars on Conventry and Intrepid, I
suggest Nigel West's _A Thread of Deceit : Espionage Myths of WW2_ (or
something close to that) published around 10 years ago but still
fairly easy to find.

Scott.
Scott Hannon, Fri Aug 26 1994 ([email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Aug 1994 11:21:20 -0400
From:    Joe Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: Churchill, Conventry, Ultra (Backround info wanted

"Mr. Scott Hannon" <[email-masked]> writes:
> As for the story about Coventry, that has been shown to be more-or-less
> false; a conclusion based on only part of the story. This would be a
> good topic to add to the FAQ IMO.

        It is in there!  I was mildly surprised to see the topic come up
but I thought I would let it run its course.

>From Introduction to WWII-L:
>       Also, while conspiracy theories were all the rage during in the 1970s
> and 1980s, they're rather passe now.  Their novelty is gone and there is
> little or no evidence to support them.  Occam's razor applies here: don't
> attribute to malice the results of ignorance.  Accordingly, the following
> topics are discouraged:
>
>       1. Did Roosevelt know about the coming attack on Pearl Harbor and
>          intentionally do nothing in order to drag the US into the war?
>       2. Did Churchill allow the bombing of Conventry to occur in order
>          to protect the secret of Ultra?
--
Joe Barone, WWII-L
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Aug 1994 11:44:41 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA:B-29 in Greenland

>From the DoD Newswire 26 August 1994

:B 29 SALVAGE EFFORT EXTENDED

   COPENHAGEN, Denmark  -- Hours before a deadline expired, an
American salvage team on Thursday was given another week to fly home a
vintage B-29 aircraft stranded in northern Greenland 47 years ago.
   The team has been repairing the abandoned bomber, and is waiting
for good weather to fly the plane from a frozen lake about 620 miles
south of the North Pole to the nearby U.S. Air Force base in Thule,
Greenland.
   Team members had been given until Friday to use the base. Thule's
commander, Air Force Col. Ronald G. Haeckel, on Thursday gave them
another week, said Cmdr. Erik Thomsen, a Danish army liaison officer
in Thule.
   Weather conditions in the Arctic can change quickly. The
California-based private salvage team needs three days of clear skies
to prepare a runaway.
   "The weather forecast for the next days is pretty good," said
Thomsen.
   The plane has been parked since its crew was forced to land on Feb.
21, 1947, during a spy flight.
   Salvage team members eventually want to fly the B-29 to the United
States for more repairs before selling it. Only one of the
approximately 4,000 bombers built during World War II is believed to
be still flying.

=======

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Aug 1994 11:48:15 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA:Paris Celebrates II

>From the DoD Newswire 26 August 1994

:PARIS FETES WWII LIBERATION

   PARIS  -- The bells of Notre Dame pealed across the city on
Thursday as 1,000 people on bicycles and in World War II jeeps
re-enacted the day 50 years ago when the Nazi occupation crumbled and
Paris was freed.
   Chimes pealed from the twin towers of Notre Dame cathedral, whose
14-ton bell along with those in all Paris' churches had been silenced
during the four-year Nazi occupation that began in 1940.
   The daylong celebrations culminated with speeches by President
Francois Mitterrand and Paris Mayor Jacques Chirac at City Hall.
   "With the liberation of Paris by the French, with the help of the
Allies, France rediscovered its honor among nations," Chirac said.
   In a grand finale, fireworks shot skyward along a 1.5-mile stretch
of the Seine river, followed by a grand outdoor ball at the Place de
la Concorde.
   Avenues were blocked off for a parade of 1,000 cyclists and vintage
military vehicles along the same route taken by French troops led by
Gen. Philippe Leclerc on Aug. 25, 1944.
   Police said 200,000 people lined the route from southern Paris to
Place Saint-Michel, in the heart of the Latin Quarter, to watch the
spectacle.
   History buffs wearing fatigues and driving jeeps with French and
American flags drove through Paris boulevards ahead of the evening
parade.
   Earlier, a morning Mass at Notre Dame commemorated Charles de
Gaulle's victorious stand in the final moments of pitted street
battles for the city.
   "The people we honor left us a message -- the example of their
determination and unity that overcame all obstacles," Mitterrand told
a crowd of thousands Thursday night outside the City Hall.
   Earlier, he decorated Henri "Colonel Rol" Tanguy, a communist who
led the Resistance insurgency against the occupying German army in
Paris, with the Grand Cross of the Legion of Honor.
   Rol-Tanguy, as he prefers to be known, was immortalized in the book
"Is Paris Burning?" where he was quoted as angrily declaring "Paris is
worth 200,000 dead" -- a statement he denies saying.
   Now 87, Rol-Tanguy noted in a radio interview Thursday that both
his and Gaullist Gen. Philippe Leclerc's signatures are on the
surrender the German commander signed. "We were both rewarded. And
Paris was saved, intact."
   A fire fighter clambered up the Eiffel Tower to suspend a huge
French flag, just as one had done 50 years ago to replace the swastika
and giant "V" the Germans had erected to denote their victory.
   Another huge tricolor banner billowed beneath the Arch of Triumph
at the top of the Champs Elysees, decorated its entire length by
French flags.
   Hundreds of visitors strolled through a photography exhibit at the
Hotel de Ville featuring pictures of the fight for Paris by Robert
Doisneau, Suzanne Laroche, The Associated Press and others.
   'It is a tremendous memory ... We were young, in our 20s," said
French veteran Edgar Claude, 72, of the exhibit. He leaned on a cane
and occasionally stroked the medals on his chest.
   On Aug. 25, 1944, he was a 22-year-old member of the Free French
Army entering Paris.
   "We were so overcome by joyful Parisians surrounding us that we
didn't see much of the city," Claude said. "It means so very much to
me because I won't be here to see the 100th anniversary."
   Many of the photos at the exhibition were of de Gaulle, known to
most French only through radio broadcasts, as he directed the Free
French movement from exile in Britain.
   De Gaulle was in a race with the Communists, with his prestige and
future at stake, to recapture Paris. He feared an Allied decision to
bypass France in its pursuit of Germany's retreating army would make
it ripe for a takeover by the better-organized Communists, who
dominated the Resistance.
   Resistance fighters battled German tanks with stolen arms,
firebombs and hunting rifles. The Allies finally ordered Leclerc's 2nd
Armored Division into the city, where elements reached the Hotel de
Ville the night of Aug. 24.
   De Gaulle entered the next day, giving scant acknowledgement to
Resistance leaders' contributions. On Aug. 26, de Gaulle led a victory
parade down the Champs Elysees to Notre Dame, marking him indelibly in
Frenchmen's hearts as the liberator of Paris.
   That march will be re-enacted Friday by 8,000 schoolchildren.

=====

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Aug 1994 11:50:02 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA:Russian Plans for 50th

>From the DoD Newswire 26 August 1994

:RUSSIA ANNOUNCES PLANS FOR 50TH ANNIVERSARY OF WW2

    MOSCOW, Aug 25  - Russia, where memories of World War Two
have strong political and emotional resonance, announced plans on
Thursday to mark next year's 50th anniversary of the defeat of Nazi
Germany in style.
     A foreign ministry spokesman said Moscow would propose that the
United Nations General Assembly declare 1995 "The Year of the Memory
of the Victims of World War Two."
     It would also call on the world community to pay special
significance to May 8 and 9, the days the Western allies and Russia
respectively recall the surrender of Adolf Hitler's defeated armies in
1945.
     "In the draft Russia calls on all states, parliaments and
governments to declare May 8 and 9 next year "Days Without a Shot
being Fired on Earth'," he said, without elaborating.
     The former Soviet Union, though only entering the war in June
1941, paid by far the biggest role in defeating Germany. Huge swathes
of its territory were devastated and estimates of the number of its
citizens killed start at 20 million.

========

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Aug 1994 11:42:21 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Gen. Choltitz refuses Hitler

>On 25-AUG-1944, the following occurred -
>
>Northern France - The French 2nd Armoured Division enters Paris from the
>southwest at 7:00 am. Half and hour later the US 4th Division moves in from
>the south. General Deitrich von Choltitz refuses Hitler's oders to mine the
>public buildings, museums and bridges of Paris. At 3:15 pm he surrenders to
>General Leclerc.

I saw something on the news about Gen. Choltitz. He apparently sent a message
through Swedish diplomatic sources to the allies in which he implored them
to hasten their advance on Paris, knowing that Hitler would get someone
else to carry out the orders if he did not. Does anyone know hat happened to
him after he surrendered? Was he ever tried for war crimes, etc..?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Wild, LAN Mgr.  Father of 1.8815          Voice:          (401) 792-2611
ACC - Lippitt - URI  American Legion Post 102. FAX:            (401) 792-5479
Kingston, RI  02881  NRA Life Member           BITNET:           AWild@URIACC
                                               Internet: [email-masked]

For those who understand, music is the only real art form.
                                                 - pretentious tee shirt ;-)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Aug 1994 12:13:34 -0400
From:    "David a. Vandenbroucke" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: International law in ww ii

On Fri, 26 Aug 1994, Tim J. Watts wrote:

> Did the US actually declare war against the German allies in Eastern
> Europe (i.e., Rumania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Slovakia)?  We were obviously
> ...

I seem to recall that it took us six months to declare war on Rumania
after their declaration on us.  We wanted to give them the chance to
change their minds, or something.

--Dav
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Aug 1994 12:39:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Commandos Reinterred

Jim Irwin sent the following out today:

 >:FUNERAL SET FOR WWII COMMANDOS
 >
 >   SINGAPORE, Aug. 24  -- The Australian High Commission said
 >Wednesday that the recently discovered remains of two officers killed
 >in a legendary World War II commando raid nearly 50 years ago will be
 >buried Saturday at the Kranji War Cemetary in Singapore.
 >   Sergeant Colin Cameron of the 2nd Australian Imperial Force and Sub
 >Lieutenant Gregor Riggs, a British sailor of the Royal Navy Volunteer
 >Reserve, who took part in "Operation Rimau," will be laid to rest with
 >full military honors, the commission said.

Does anyone have additional information on this "legendary World
War II commando raid?"

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Aug 1994 09:54:13 -0700
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 27-AUG-1944

On 27-AUG-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Northern France - The Canadian II Corps begins to cross the Seine between
Pont-de-l'Arche and Elbeuf. The British I Corps reaches the mouth of the
Seine. In the XII Corps sector, the 15th Division crosses the Seine east of
Louviers. Th US 30th and 79th Divisions (XV Corps, 1st Army) attack across the
river at Mantes-Gassicourt. The US XX Corps reaches the Marne at
Chateau-Thierry. The XII Corps is advancing towards Chalons-sur-Marne. In
Brittany, the VIII Corps (3rd Army) completely encircles Brest. General
Eisenhower along with General Bradly visits Paris and confer with General de
Gaulle.

Southern France - The US 3rd Division nears Montelimar. The 45th Division
pushes on towards Lyons from Grenoble.

Eastern Front - In Rumania, the 2nd Ukraine Front takes Focsani and advances
towards Ploesti. The 3rd Ukraine Front occupies Galati, the main river port on
the Danube.

Italian Front - The British 8th Army continues to advance towards the Gothic
line.

Burma - The British 38th Division advances along the road from Mogaung to
Mandalay and captures Pinbaw.

Foreign Affairs
---------------
Fate Of Vichy - The AP reports that Marshal Henry Philippe Petain, Pierre
Laval and former Premier Edouard Herriot were arrested by the Gestapo and
removed to Germany a few days before the fall of Paris following refusal to
transfer the government from Vichy to Belfort, near the Swiss border. The
dispatch also gives the text of a supposed open letter to the French people
from Petain calling on them to "unit behind leaders who will tell you to
follow a policy of reconciliation and renaissance of France through reciprocal
love and forgiveness of your fellow countrymen." The letter says that Petain
was motivated by his desire to serve the best interests of France.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Aug 1994 10:43:19 -0800
From:    Yarbrough James L <[email-masked]>
Subject: Hollandia Invasions

Does anybody have any information on  Operation Reckless (the invasion of
Hollandia and Biak)??

I know it was the 41st and 24th Infantry Div., but what kind of opposition did
they face?

Thanks
Jim

[email-masked]

New rules adopted by the agency require me to state that all my opinions are
mine, not that anybody else would want them, and not to hold the State of
Oregon or anybody else responsible.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Aug 1994 10:43:00 -0500
From:    "Colin Brace (617)726-5085" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Film: SPITFIRE

          Sidney wrote:

          >That leslie Howard movie you mentioned was FIRST OF THE FEW, a
          >film biography of Mitchell, the Spit's designer, who died of
          >cancer just before his creation flew.

          I have a copy of that exact same film on video entitled SPITFIRE
          (1942) (c1984 Kartes Video Communications, Inc. Indianapolis). I
          think I bought it about 7 years ago in the video store's bargain
          rack for about $5.00. According to the notes on the sleeve, this
          was Leslie Howard's last film. Also starring was a (very young)
          David Niven as Howard's (Mitchell's) best friend/pilot. Not bad, in
          a propaganda sort of way, considering when it was made. The audio
          on mine is awful, very muddy (guess I got what I paid for!).

          Probably titled differently for different markets.

          Colin Brace WA1KWA

          [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Aug 1994 13:02:03 CDT
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re[2]: German squad vs. U.S. Squad

I gotta disagree with you there--the standard TO&E German squad has that
MG-42 which just rippes holes in the enemy--a BAR (sorta light machine
gun) can;t compare to a true light machine gun--being belt fed and
interchangable barrels allows it to keep the rate of fire up much higher
than the BAR.  The MG-42 was the meat and potatoes of the German squad.
The Kar's are a disadvantage but not one that can;t be overcome.  Having
carried bolt a Kar and an M-1 I'd rather have an M-1, but you can
overcome the Kar's slow rate of fire through tactics--keeping people in
teams--stuff like that.

In the steel on target, I beleive the German squad wals away with it.
The german squad leader always keeps the MG-42 within about arms length
which on the march so he can emplace it where needed.  I've done this at
reenactments and it works well.

TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Aug 1994 11:47:56 -0700
From:    Jim Curry <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: International law in ww ii

As I recall, the United States was at war with Hungary,Romania,and Bulgaria.
Since we did not recognize the existence of Slovakia (or Croatia; in our
eyes these were rebel regimes on the territories of our allies Czechoslovakia
and Yugoslavia) we did not declare war on them.  in the Far East Thailand
declared war on us --but the United States refused to recognize their
declaration !

Jim Curry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Aug 1994 14:36:42 -0700
From:    Eric Fenster <[email-masked]>
Subject: Paris liberated: 50 yrs

 For the last few weeks, French TV and newspapers have been following, day by
day, the events leading to the liberation as they happened 50 years ago.

 Yesterday marked the liberation itself: 25 August 1944. In the afternoon, a
plaque was dedicated on the square in front of the Gare Montparnasse where
General Leclerc had his headquarters and where General Choltitz signed the
document of surrender.

 At least this day recognized that it was Leclerc, who had fought the entire
war, who, along with the Resistance and the population, liberated Paris.  De
Gaulle would march down the Champs Elysees on the 26th, but he arrived after
the liberation was all over.  Leclerc, in the view of many, was seen by De
Gaulle as a threat to the unique place he wished to occupy. Leclerc would die
in 1947 in an air crash which some call "mysterious" and others an
assassination. (His widow participated in the commemoration this week.)

 President Mitterand was there to decorate Col. Rol Tanguy--now 86, and still
a Communist--who was the commander of the FFI, the Resistance forces, and who
led the uprising of the city. The evening before, the spirit of unity which
has characterized the commemoration was evident when Paris's conservative
mayor, Jacques Chirac and Tanguy appeared in a joint television interview.

 For the public, there was not much to see at Montparnasse. Police put a
tight and distant cordon around the ceremonies. As in the final day of the
occupation, there were sharpshooters--but this time French, and quite visible
on the surrounding roofs. My corner was pretty crowded, but suddenly six
"riot police" (CRS), deliberately chosen it seemed to be ugly and imposing,
appeared along with a plainclothes officer. Somehow they had spotted that a
young man who had climbed a bus shelter to get a better view had left a
briefcase on the sidewalk below him. They insisted that he carry the
briefcase while he watched, they idea being that if it exploded he go with
it.

 When the officials--Mayor, Prime Minister and President--left, with their
motorcycle escorts, is was possible to approach the spot. Tanguy was still
there, chatting with whomever wished to. The chairs hadn't been removed yet,
and children were taking turns sitting in Mitterand's elaborate "throne."
Three veterans of the 2nd Armored Division, the French unit which entered
Paris in 1944, held court, recounting their personal recollections of their
arrival in Paris 50 years before.

 In the evening there was a recreation of the route of entry taken by General
Leclerc in 1944, from the Porte d'Orleans to the City Hall. Again, the police
had the upper hand.  By the thousands, they hermetically sealed off a large
section of the center of the city. It was easier to circulate during the
occupation! and I began to wonder just for whom the commemoration was.

 Some people who lived in the closed area or who had business there tried to
argue, but in vain.  What did they expect? The police and militia had obeyed
German orders, even to the point of rounding up people for the death camps,
until only the previous week in 1944--and which point they finally joined the
revolt.  Were they going to balance reason against "security" now?

 I did manage to enter the zone approaching the City Hall, thanks to a friend
who had procured an invitation.  The recreation was in the form of a moving
set of "scenes" in which participants repeatedly acted out along the whole
route all the stages of the occupation and the liberation. In the night, and
with the lighting and sounds, it was as close as one could get to being there
in time. Throughout the fighting and the liberation was the haunting melody
of the "Song of the Resistance." Dozens of the original vehicles
participated, from the famous front wheel drive cars to American jeeps and
ambulances to the buses of the time--homage to the workers of the transit
system who were active in the insurrection.

 The GIs were there, as a half century ago, but were preceded by the tanks of
the French 2nd Armored Division, each with its own, and well-known name.
Their deep rumble was an assurance of power, of being definitive, and perhaps
that is what made their passage the most moving moment: their arrival meant
Paris had been taken back.
 So many people were in their 70s and were not reluctant to reminisce.  The
young people who participated in the remake of the entry into Paris or who
watched it could give themselves a rendez-vous for the centenary celebration
in 2044.  There, they will tell their grandchildren about yesterday, when
they met the people who really marched into Paris or welcomed them.

 One thing which impressed me: nowhere did I see or hear of anybody making or
selling "souvenirs" of the anniversary; no T-shirts, buttons, trinkets,
whatever.  There were no "official sponsors," candy bars, soft drinks or
otherwise.  In the wake of the recent Woodstock imitation and other
substitutions of "virtual reality" for real life, the sufficiency of
remembering a real event was its own satisfaction. It wasn't necessary to buy
something to prove "I was there."

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Aug 1994 16:47:52 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Film: SPITFIRE

One of the few films Niven ever really *acted* in.  :-)

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Aug 1994 17:54:33 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA:Old Aircraft

>From the Philadelphia Sunday Inquirer 10 July 1994

        They sit chained to the ground, like crippled birds robbed of
flight, along the chain-link fence enclosing the Willow Grove
Naval Air Station in Horsham (PA).
        They are old war birds, a couple of which are among the rarest
World War II-vintage planes in the world.
        For years, the Delaware Valley Historical Aircraft
Association has been trying to build a museum to house the
silent warriors before they rot beyond repair.
        Formed in 1972 to restore, maintain and display the
airplanes, the association had plans in 1986 to build a Wings of
Freedom Air and Space Museum.  But those plans fell through.
        Now, the association, with more than 500 members from
Bucks County (PA) to South Jersey and beyond, is running a race
against time and the elements, trying again to raise about
$500,000 to build a home for the historical aircraft.
        The association was counting on $200,000 in the state's
capital budget to help it break ground in the fall for a
building foundation on the site where the planes are parked.
The money had been added to the capital budget through an
amendment by State Sen. Stuart Greenleaf, who wanted to help the
association.
        But Governor Casey knocked the money out of the budget
in early July.
        "It's very, very disappointing, and it's a temporary
setback," said Paul Kopczynski of Northeast Philadelphia, the
association's executive director.
        "But it doesn't mean we are dead or that we are giving
up.  We will press on and try to raise money from other avenues
and maybe get it off the ground that way," he said.
        Kopczynski, 56, an Air Force veteran and pilot, said
some money had been raised since the present effort began about
18 months ago, but he declined to be more specific.
        He said several thousand dollars was raised at the
Willow Grove Air show in June.
        "We are looking primarily to interest the community and
corporations in the greater Philadelphia area to support us," he
said.
        The 11-plane collection includes a German Arado AR-196,
a two-seat reconnaissance seaplane build between 1941 and 1942
at Warnemunde, Germany.
        Also in the collection is a Japanese Kawanishi Kyofu,
called a "Rex" by US forces, a potent fighter seaplane, built in
1942.
        The Rex is thought to be one of only two survivors of
its line, and the Arado is thought to be one of only three in
existence.
        The remainder are American-made aircraft from the late
1940s and 1950s, primarily the United States' first jet fighters.
        The German and Japanese planes have been sitting on
their perches for more than 40 years.
        All of the historical planes have been exposed to the
elements for a long time.  Sun, rain, snow and ice have taken
their toll, peeling paint from the planes and corroding their
metal.
        Like the planes, the association has had a hard time
finding a home.
        For more than 20 years, it and the collection were on
the grounds of Willow Grove.  Then the group and its planes were
sent to the Warminster (PA) Naval Air Warfare Center.
        But recently the group was told that because the
Warminster center is being closed, it will have to move.
Fortunately, the Navy found room for the collection again at
Willow Grove, where eight of the planes are chained down south
of the Main gate, and where the association has a cramped office.
        The association also has a valuable Messerschmitt 262,
the world's first pure jet and the only jet used in World War
II.  It is one of only five left in the world and is now being
restored at an aircraft factory in Texas.
        The other planes include:
        * A Grumman F9F Panther, built in 1948, the first Navy
jet in combat and the first to shoot down an enemy jet during
the Korean War.  It was donated to the association by member Art
Wolk, a prominent Philadelphia lawyer specializing in aviation
law.
        * A North American FJ-4B Fury, first flown in 1951, the
Navy's version of the Air Force's F-86 Sabre Jet.
        * A Convair XF2Y-1 Sea Dart, designed as a sea-based jet
fighter in 1953 and the only seaplane ever to exceed the speed
of sound.  It is one of only four left in the world and is now
restored.
        * An Air Force F-80 Shooting Star, the first all-jet
fighter used by US forces, which was given to the Navy in July
1948.
        * A Grumman F7U-3 Cutlass, the first Navy fighter with
an afterburner, designed in 1946 using technology captured from
the German Luftwaffe.  The association's plane was built in 1954.
        * A Chance-Vought F8U-1 Crusader, which in 1956 broke the
1,000 mph mark and was flown by Navy and Marine reserve units at
Willow Grove in the 1960s and 1970s.
        The association also has a Grumman C-1A Trader, a cargo
and passenger plane, and a Sikorsky UH-34D Seabat helicopter
used for anti-submarine warfare.
        The chopper, donated by Carson Helicopters in Perkasie
(PA), is now being restored in a Willow Grove Marine hangar by
association members who are sanding it in preparation for
repainting.
        Kopczynski said the German and Japanese planes were
brought to the United States after the war to be inspected and
compared with US planes.  After evaluation, they were parked and
began to deteriorate.
        Later, they were repainted and placed on display.
        Technically, the Navy owns all of the planes except the
Panther and the helicopter, Kopczynski said, but has lent them
to the association.
        And there is always the possibility that the Navy could
take them back.
        "Willow Grove NAS encourages and actively tries to help
out [the association], but legally we are not allowed to build
anything or use taxpayers' money to help," said Navy Lt. Vince
Donlan, the Navy's liaison with the group.
        "We have found them some temporary space in a Marine
hangar, but we don't know how long it will be available," he
said.
        The association is using the space to restore the
helicopter and do some work on an A4-M Sky Hawk lent to the
group by Marine Air Group 49 at Willow Grove.
        "If the association couldn't maintain them, the Navy
Historical Center would take them back.  There's a possibility
of that with the Japanese Rex and German Arado because of their
conditions," Donlan said.
        But Donlan said he didn't think the planes would be
taken away from Willow Grove.
        "They [the association] are working hard to maintain the
planes and build a museum.  They do a great job with limited
resources," he said.
        "The hardest thing is doing the restoration work," said
Petty Officer First Class John Benton, 38, chief of restoration
for the association.
        "To disassemble any major parts that need sanding and
painting, that's just hard, tedious work.  You really have to be
dedicated to come out here on your free time and sand and paint
airplanes," Benton said.
        "All of the planes have had some cosmetic work.  They
rust and rot out real good sitting out here."
        The Convair Sea Dart has been restored, and its
Navy-blue paint glistens in the sun.
        But, said Benton, it took a crew of 12 people two years
to sand it down to metal, prime it, and paint it.
        The paint to restore one plane costs about $1500,
Kopczynski said, but area companies often donate it.
        "We are looking for organizations to adopt an airplane
and do some of the restoration.  We have to depend upon
volunteers.  And we'd like to get the local Air Force
Association to take charge of the P-80, which was an Air Force
plane," Kopczynski said.
        Retired Navy CDR Stuart Glasby, formerly of Lahaska
(PA), now living near West Chester (PA), is a longtime member of
the historical association.
        "It has been very exasperating.  There have been Navy
roadblocks at various points, and the bureaucracy.  We had
fund-raisers and reversals of fortune," he said.
        "We turned down a Japanese man who wanted to buy the Rex
for a considerable sum of money - which might have been enough
to build a hangar - because we didn't want to sell back a
captured airplane."
        "These are not just old jets taken out of service.  Each
is a rare and historical aircraft," Benton said.
        The association is nonprofit, and donations are
tax-deductible.
        "We need donations of time and money to keep this
project going, and we are looking for new members all the time,"
Kopczynski said.
        For more information, call the association at
215-443-6039.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Aug 1994 16:53:33 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Smokeless?/flashless? powder for Axis only?

The Japanese enjoyed the advantage of smokeless?/flashless?
  gunpowder during the war.  This was especially useful at night,
  of course, when U.S. warships gave themselves away every time
  they fired.

Why didn't the Allies have this?  Or did we?  ... ever?

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Aug 1994 17:08:29 EST
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Smokeless?/flashless? powder for Axis only?

I am sure that someone else will have better info on this but for
what its worth, here goes.  I recently read a history of the USS
Washington and I recall seeing a rather sarcastic reference to our
flashless powder.  I got the impression that it was not nearly so
flashless as it was supposed to be.
*************************************************
(Roger) Brad Coon            "Lions are basically
[email-masked]          scavengers of
[email-masked]    hyaena kills."
                              Hans Kruuk

Kill a lion, save a hyaena!
Boycott Disney lionist propaganda!
*************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Aug 1994 15:51:13 -0700
From:    Ed Kettler <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INFORMATION

Ben,

Do you have the address for Battery Press?

Thanks!
Ed Kettler                                       [email-masked]

On Thu, 25 Aug 1994, Ben Frank wrote:

> Battery Press in Nashville has reprinted/is reprinting a number of unit
> histories as well as official histories, such as the Marine Corps' five-volume
> history of U.S. Marine Corps operations in World War II. It is quite possible
> that Dick Gardner, the owner, has published/will publish the 79th history. Ben
> Frank
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Aug 1994 21:08:26 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: CHURCHILL, CO

The author of "Bodyguard of Lies" is Anthony Cave-Brown, although I don't
recall it being in two volumes. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Aug 1994 21:23:12 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INFORMATION

Records of all former and retired military personnel are held by the Military
Personnel Records Center in St. Louis. I don't have the address but I feel
certain that if you contact that activity, it will tell you how to accession
your father's records. You can also contact the local VA office, or one of the
service organizations, as the VFW, American Legion, and the like, and they will
assist you in getting the records.
Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Aug 1994 21:23:16 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 50TH: LIBERATION O

What is even grosser is the illusion that the French wish to give about every
French man and woman is that they were all in the FFI or doing some sort of
underground activity. Those who were, were truly brave. Those who weren't
deserve the condemnation they are given. Too many French citizens were willing
to come to an accommodation with the Nazis as long as it did not disturb them
more than slightly. This thread could go on, but I leave to the experts in
French history to comment further. The willingness of the French milice, their
eagerness to cooperate with the Nazis is criminal, but apparently easily
forgotten. A generalization with some validity. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Aug 1994 22:05:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 27 AUG 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
SUNDAY, 27 AUGUST 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 5 B-24s bomb and photograph Kashiwabara,
Parmushiru Island in 2 raids; and 4 B-25s on a shipping sweep E of the N
Kurile Islands bomb and strafe picket boats damaging 1 and leaving another
sinking.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 23 P-47s support ground forces in
the Pinbaw area, hitting Kondangyi and troops and strongpoints near Pinbaw;
and the 90th Fighter Squadron, 80th Fighter Group, moves from Moran, India to
Tingkawk Sakan with P-47s. In India, the 2d Combat Cargo Squadron, 1st Combat
Cargo Group, arrives at Sylhet from the US with C-47s.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 7 B-25s bomb Hengyang, Tien Ho,
White Cloud, and Pailochi Airfields; 9 others hit road and river traffic in
the Yoyang, Hankow, Changsha, and Hengyang areas; 120+ P-40s and P-51s hit
targets of opportunity in the above areas plus Yangtien, Chachiang, Anjen,
Leiyang, Sintsiang, Siangsiang, and Siangtan, damaging or destroying numerous
trucks, many rivercraft and hitting several troop concentrations.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Two major missions are flown
against Berlin and strategic targets in N and C Germany; 3 bombers and 10
fighters are lost:
  Mission 583: 426 B-17s are dispatched but encounter very high clouds over
Denmark and N Germany and are recalled; 5 hit Ausum Airfield, 4 hit targets
of opportunity and 1 hits Flensburg marshalling yard; 2 B-17s are lost and 16
damaged; 9 airmen are MIA. Escort is provided by 180 of 194 P-51s; 3 P-51s
are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 2 damaged; 1 pilot is KIA and 3 MIA.
  Mission 584: 777 bombers and 351 fighters are dispatched:
  1. Of 371 B-17s dispatched, targets hit are Esbjerg Airfield (60), Emden
marshalling yards and docks (37), Wilhelmshaven (34), Heligoland Island (11),
Island of Fano (1) and Island of Sylt (1); 1 B-17 is lost, 2 damaged beyond
repair and 54 damaged; 1 airman is KIA, 5 WIA and 10 MIA. Escort is provided
by 156 of 167 P-51s; they claim 1-0-0 aircraft in the air and 1-0-0 on the
ground; 7 P-51s are lost and 1 damaged; 7 pilots are MIA.
  2. 34 of 406 B-24s hit Heligoland Island; 3 B-24s are damaged. Escort is
provided by 169 P-38s and P-51s; 7 P-51s are damaged.
  316 of 326 P-47s fly fighter-bomber missions against transport in E France;
they claim 14-0-4 aircraft on the ground; 1 P-47 is lost (pilot is MIA).
  Mission 585: 6 of 6 B-17s drop leaflets in France and the Netherlands
during the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, the IX Bomber Command
attacks troop concentrations in the Rouen area, Rouen bridge, Boulogne-sur-
Mer/Boursin navigational beam station, and Bucy-les-Pierrepont and Foret de
Samoussy fuel dumps; fighters cover ground forces and fly sweeps and armed
reconnaissance in the Senlis area and S of the Loire River claiming 16
aircraft (11 in the air) destroyed, and losing 6; the 31st Photographic
Reconnaissance Squadron, 10th Photographic Group (Reconnaissance), moves from
Rennes to Chateaudun with F-5s; the 112th Liaison Squadron, Ninth Air Force,
moves from Heston, England to Jullouville with L-5s; and the 395th and 396th
Fighter Squadrons, 368th Fighter Group, moves from Cardonville to Chartres
with P-47s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 530+ fighter-escorted bombers
attack targets in Germany and Italy; the B-17s hit an oil refinery in
Blechhammer, Germany; the B-24s also hit an oil refinery in Blechhammer and
in Italy, a railroad bridge at Ferrara, and viaducts at Avisio, Venzone, and
Borovnica.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In France, medium bombers hit gun
emplacements in the Marseille area and the 111th Tactical Reconnaissance
Squadron, XII Tactical Air Command, moves from Borgo, Corsica to St Rahael
with F-6s. In Italy, medium bombers attack bridges at Berceto; fighter-
bombers continue armed reconnaissance in the Po Valley and over roads leading
N from the battle line N of the Arno River; A-20s bomb targets of opportunity
in the Po Valley during the night of 26/27 Aug, fly armed reconnaissance and
during the day hit ammunition stores in NC Italy; and the detachment of the
12th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, 3d Photographic Group
(Reconnaissance), moves from Cecina to Malignano with F-5s (the squadron is
based at Follonica).

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): A Saipan Island-based B-24 bombs Iwo Jima
Island while another, after photo reconnaissance of Woleai Atoll, bombs Yap
Island. P-47s bomb AA positions on Pagan Island and strafe buildings on
Alamagan Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: In New Guinea,
fighter-bombers hit Miti and airfields at Babo, Ransiki, Sagan, and
Manokwari; fighter-bombers hit bivouacs near Boram, troops between Abau and
Boikin, and a fuel dump and barges at Kairiru Island; and the 75th
Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 42d Bombardment Group (Medium), moves from
Stirling Island to Hollandia with B-25s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

27/0207Z AUG

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Aug 1994 22:09:47 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INFORMATION

I don't have it home, but in the office. I'll post it to you Monday. Ben Frank

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 25 Aug 1994 to 26 Aug 1994
*************************************************