Subject: WWII-L Digest - 27 Aug 1994 to 28 Aug 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 1994 00:00:48 -0400

There are 34 messages totalling 1052 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. 50TH: LIBERATION OF PARIS - VON CHOLTITZ
  2. 'Supplying the Norwegian underground
  3. NORWAY's HEROES (2)
  4. [INF] USAAF 28 AUG 44
  5. ENOLA GAY CONTINUED (2)
  6. TRV:  Roosevelt and Abscinthe?
  7. INF: 50 Years Ago - 29-AUG-1944
  8. P-61
  9. Trivia (3)
 10. WEAP:German H-Class BBs
 11. Information
 12. 50TH: IS PARIS BURNING?
 13. INFORMATION (3)
 14. 50TH: LIBERATION O
 15. Media:Operation RIMAU (2)
 16. Russo-Finnish War
 17. Addr: Von Choltitz
 18. TRV:  ROOSEVELT AND AB
 19. [INF] USAAF 29 AUG 44
 20. French Resistance(?)
 21. <No subject given>
 22. Importance of due credit.
 23. MEDIA: Is Paris Burning
 24. ENOLA GAY on David Brinkley's
 25. Media: ATTACK FORCE Z (2)
 26. MODELS & GAMES:  GenCon debriefing

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Aug 1994 14:05:30 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Subject: 50TH: LIBERATION OF PARIS - VON CHOLTITZ

  FOR TERRY MOORE

  Terry, I think you should tell the list about Von Choltitz's pre-France
career.  As I recall, he was involved in some rather brutal operations in the
invasion of the Low Countries and on the eastern front.  Evidently this was one
of the reasons Hitler chose him for the Paris command.
  We should also note that he had asked for reinforcements to defend Paris, and
his failure to get these apprarently played a role in his decisions.
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Aug 1994 10:32:38 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: 'Supplying the Norwegian underground

On the Sunday Morning program there was a report of 11 U.S. airmen who lost
their lives crashing into a mountain with a Liberator. They apparently
had a secret mission to supply the Norwegian underground by ferrying
supplies from Scotland. I only heard the name of the Mountain, less than
2Km,... Mt. Scorvafeld (sp?). Anyway, this Berger Svierldstor (sp?) has
been to the crash site annually for a number of years. He commented about
one October (cold) visit when 11 or 12 grouse flew as he approached the
wreckage. He drew a symbolism... 'Yet another 50th anniv. I thought that
John Ausland might have more info, or at least the correct spellings! ;-)

Amicably, Alan

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Wild, LAN Mgr.  Father of 1.8815          Voice:          (401) 792-2611
ACC - Lippitt - URI  American Legion Post 102. FAX:            (401) 792-5479
Kingston, RI  02881  NRA Life Member           BITNET:           AWild@URIACC
                                               Internet: [email-masked]

For those who understand, music is the only real art form.
                                                 - pretentious tee shirt ;-)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Aug 1994 11:39:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: NORWAY's HEROES

 >On the Sunday Morning program there was a report of 11 U.S. airmen who lost
 >their lives crashing into a mountain with a Liberator. They apparently
 >had a secret mission to supply the Norwegian underground by ferrying
 >supplies from Scotland. I only heard the name of the Mountain, less than
 >2Km,... Mt. Scorvafeld (sp?). Anyway, this Berger Svierldstor (sp?) has
 >been to the crash site annually for a number of years. He commented about
 >one October (cold) visit when 11 or 12 grouse flew as he approached the
 >wreckage. He drew a symbolism... 'Yet another 50th anniv. I thought that
 >John Ausland might have more info, or at least the correct spellings! ;-)
 >
 >Alan Wild, LAN Mgr.  Father of 1.8815          Voice:          (401) 792-2611

The CBS-TV show SUNDAY MORNING did their usual "class" act with this
story.  The story was entitled NORWAYS HEROES and describes the mission of
a 492d Bombardment Group (Heavy) B-24 Liberator based at Harrington,
England on a CARPETBAGGER mission to Norway from Scotland.  Assuming that
the aircraft went down in Aug or Sep 44, from the information I have,
the 492d lost one B-24 on the night of 5/6 Sep 44 and another on the night
of 16/17 Sep 44.  The 492d ceased full scale CARPETBAGGER operations after
the 16/17 Sep mission and only one of the four squadrons continued flying
limited missions until 25 Apr 45.

Alan neglected to mention that this 63-year old man teaches 8-year old
children about the mission, the crewmen, etc. so that they are also aware
of what happened.  He has also tracked down the families of 8(?) crewmen
and has communicated with them.  The sister of the flight engineer lives
here in New Jersey and the reporter talked to her and other members of the
family about the crash.

The final thing the reporter said is that a momument to these 11 kids
(17-23 years old) was to be dedicated on Saturday; since this was broadcast
on August 28, I assume that it would be dedicated on September 3.

I will follow up on Alan's reqest; John Ausland, have you heard anything?

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Aug 1994 11:59:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 28 AUG 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
MONDAY, 28 AUGUST 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-3, Douglas Havoc
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  P-61, Northrop Black Widow

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): Brigadier General Haywood S Hansell, Jr
assumes command of the XXI Bomber Command at Peterson Field, Colorado
Springs, Colorado; Brigadier General Lauris Norstad succeeds Hansell as Chief
of Staff of the Twentieth Air Force.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 4 P-47s bomb a tank pool at
Momauk, while 5 others hit Myintha; and 2 P-47s support ground forces in the
Pinbaw area.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 8 B-25s bomb Tien Ho, White Cloud,
Hankow, and Pailochi Airfields; 8 more attack river and road traffic from
Chiuchiang to Hankow and from Hengyang to Puchi; 32 P-40s pound targets of
opportunity at Hengyang and Pailochi; 23 P-40s attack Taying storage
buildings and 10 P-40s and P-51s hit Anjen and nearby targets of opportunity;
and HQ 311th Fighter Group moves from Tingkawk Sakan, Burma to Pungchacheng.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Weather prevents heavy bomber
operations; 835 fighters are dispatched on fighter-bomber and strafing
attacks on rail targets in the Netherlands, Belgium, France and Germany: 20
fighters are lost:
  1. 174 of 260 P-38s, P-47s and P-51s attack transportation targets on the
German/French border; they claim 12-1-0 aircraft in the air and 3-0-4 on the
ground; 1 P-38 is lost, 3 damaged beyond repair and 1 P-38 and 1 P-47
damaged; 1 pilot is MIA.
  2. 143 of 195 P-38s and P-47s hit transportation targets in France, Belgium
and the Netherlands; they claim 4-0-0 aircraft in the air and 3-0-2 on the
ground; 3 P-47s are lost (pilots MIA) and 2 damaged.
  3. An unknown number of 380 P-51s strafe transportation targets on the
French/German border; they claim 3-0-0 aircraft in the air and 5-0-2 on the
ground; 16 P-51s are lost and 12 damaged; 15 pilots are MIA.
  Mission 588: 6 of 6 B-17s drop leaflets in France and the Netherlands
during the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, B-26s and A-20s escorted
by fighters bomb fuel dumps at Doullens, Barisis-aux-Bois, an ammunition dump
at Querrieu, an ammunition and fuel dump at Compiegne/Foret de Laigue, and
an alcohol distillery and fuel storage depot at Hamm; fighters escort about
400 C-47s on supply and evacuation runs, attack airfields at Bourges and
Peronne, support ground forces, and fly armed reconnaissance from Amiens to E
of Dijon; the 155th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, 10th Photographic
Group (Reconnaissance), moves from Rennes to Chateaudun with A-20s and F-3s;
the 422d Night Fighter Squadron, IX Air Defense Command, moves from Maupertus
to Chateaudun with P-61s; the 507th Fighter Squadron, 404th Fighter Group,
moves from Chapelle to Bretigny with P-47s; and the 514th Fighter Squadron,
406th Fighter Group, moves from Cretteville to St Leonard with P-47s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 560+ bombers escorted by P-38s
and P-51s strike targets in Austria, Hungary and Italy; B-17s hit
Moosbierbaum oil refinery and adjacent chemical works in Austria; B-24s hit
an oil refinery at Szony and marshalling yards at Miskolc, Hungary; and
railroad bridges and viaducts at Szolnok, Hungary; and Zambana, Avisio, and
Ora Italy.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): B-25s bomb railroad bridges in the
Lyon, France area. In Italy, B-26s destroy several airplanes at Villafranca
di Verona Airfield and a bridge at Parma; A-20s hit motor transport and other
targets of opportunity during the night of 27/28 Aug, fly armed
reconnaissance over the Po Valley and blast a command post SE of Genoa;
fighter-bombers hit vehicles in the Rhone Valley of France, bomb and strafe
roads and bridges in the battle area N of Arno River and hit shipping in
Imperia and Savona harbors.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): Saipan Island-based B-24s pound Iwo Jima Island
by day and night. P-47s hit Pagan and Maug Islands, Mariana Islands. A B-24
on armed reconnaissance bombs Yap Island. Gilbert Island-based B-25s strike
Ponape Island; Marshall Islands-based B-24s hit Truk Atoll.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: In the Palau
Islands, B-24s hit the airfield on Koror Island, and the seaplane base on
Arakabesan Island.  A-20s and fighter-bombers attack small vessels along the E
coast of Ceram Island. In New Guinea, fighter-bombers hit Kokas, vessels off
Point Karakra, barracks at Nabire, storage facilities at Moemi and Manokwari
and Boram fuel dumps.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

28/1601Z AUG

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Aug 1994 12:21:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: ENOLA GAY CONTINUED

On the Sunday THIS WEEK WITH DAVID BRINKLEY news show on ABC-TV, the
subject of the Smithsonian vs. US vets came up.  (For those of you who are
not familiar with this show, the host, David Brinkley a very respected US
newsman, hosts a talk show with 2 other ABC-TV reporters.  Normally, they
interview one or two politicians about current news topics and then, with a
third reporter, get into an open discussion among themselves about various
topics.)  During the Roundtable disccusion phase, Brinkley brought up the
Enola Bay/Smitsonian dispute.  George Will's comments were, "There are a
number of people at the Smithsonian who should not be there."  He went on
to say that there are "too many cultural elites in this country who find
that everything that the US does is wrong.  Americans had experienced
Tarawa, Iwo Jima and Okinawa and there are many grandfathers out there, in
both the US and Japan, who would have never been fathers if we had had to
invade Japan."

Another reporter quoted Paul W Tibbets, Jr, the commander of the 509th
Composite Group and the pilot of the ENOLA GAY as saying, "just put the
plane out there like the SPIRIT OF ST LOUIS without any histroy lesson and
let the people judge."

There was also an article in yesterday's (August 27) issue of the NEW YORK
TIMES that was basically a rehash of everything that has already been said
on this list.  However, the last two paragraphs of the article brought out
a new factor and that is that the WWII vet is dying and they want future
generations to understand what and why they did things from their
perspective.  I would appreciate comments from people like John Ausland and
Ben Frank who were there and lived it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Aug 1994 12:54:18 -0400
From:    Emery Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: TRV:  Roosevelt and Abscinthe?

I was watching the movie MacArthur this afternoon when I noticed a
curious early scene.  An admiral and general were in the White House with
Roosevelt.  President Roosevelt takes a dropper and squeezes it into a
pitcher of some transparent, presumably alcoholic liquid, perhaps Gin or Vodka.

(Words and secene to the effect of)

ADMIRAL: "I've always been meaning to ask you, Mr. President, what is in the
dropper?"

FDR:  "Abscinthe.  It's illegal you know."

FDR then pours drinks for the admiral, general, and himself.

I have heard some stories about abscinthe before I saw this.  Artists
used to use it for some kind of inspiration, or something.  Van Gogh,
amongst others, was one of it's adherants.  I read a Scientific American
report on abscinthe, which apparently was a somewhat popular drink in the
19th century, that claimed that it led to brain and liver damage.

Has anyone else heard this about FDR, or abscinthe?  And, is there any
other strange behavior that any of the leaders of the nations of WWII
indulged in that anyone knows of?

Emery

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Aug 1994 09:58:50 -0700
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 29-AUG-1944

On 29-AUG-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Northern France - General Eisenhower's orders are to push on northwards. The
British XXX Corps lead the Allied columns in the northern sector, heading
towards Amiens with the goal of crossing the Somme. To the southeast, the US
3rd Armoured Division (VII Corps, 1st Army) crosses the Aisne east of Soissons
on the way to Laon. The 5th Division (XX Corps, 3rd Army) enters Rheims. Units
of the XII Corps captures Chalons-sur-Marne. In Brittany, the German defences
still hold up the efforts of the VIII Corps to take Brest.

Southern France - The US 3rd Division concentrates on Voiron, northwest of
Grenoble. The 36th and 45th Divisions continue to advance on Lyons.

Eastern Front - In Rumania, the 3rd Ukraine Front captures Constanta, a port
on the Black Sea. Bazau, east of Ploesti also falls.

Italian Front - The British 8th Army reaches the river Foglia, just north of
Pesaro. The German Gothic lines lies immediately to the north of the Foglia.

China - The Japanese 11th Division, after regrouping after the capture of
Hengyang, advance towards Kweilin and Liuchow, the sites of two major
airfields of the US 14th Air Force.

Naval Dispatches
----------------
Japanese minesweeper No. 28 sunk by submarine JACK (SS-25), off the Celebes.

Foreign Affairs
---------------
War Crimes - The Russians and the Polish communists jointly announce that they
have found evidence that the Germans have murdered around 1,500,000 people in
the former Majdanek concentration camp in Lublin, Poland. New York Times
reporter W.H. Lawrence calls the place "the most terrible place on the face of
the earth."  This is the first of a series of such dreadful discoveries.

Polish Resistance - The British and US Governements jointly declare that they
recognize the Home Army (AK) as a responsible beligerent force and should be
treated as such. The Germans reject this description. In Warsaw, the fighting
continues to be very fierce and brutal.

The Homefront
-------------
Republican Campaign Opens - The Republicans have opened the presidential
campaign with national radio broadcasts charging that President Roosevelt was
renominated "by New Deal bosses" and "corrupt political machines"; while the
Republican program has been charted by "the people, represented by their
governors in 26 states."

New Books Published - "Time Must Have A Stop" by Aldous Huxley, "Pastoral" by
Nevil Shute and "Cluny Brown" by Margery Sharp.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Aug 1994 12:58:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: P-61

I attended the 22nd annual airshow at Sussex Airport, Sussex, New Jersey
yesterday (Aug 27).  The Mid-Atlantic Air Museum brought their B-25 and R4D
and set up a booth to sell T-shirts, etc.  One of the things the members
were stating was that they are restoring a Northrop P-61 Black Widow.  I
have no other details.

If anyone is interested in the Mid-Atlantic Air Museum or the P-61 project,
the MAAM is located at Reading Regional/Carl A Spaatz Field in Reading,
Pennyslvania.  They also have two P2V-7s and other aircraft that are
normally on display during the week and everyday in the winter.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Aug 1994 13:08:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Trivia

The 453d Bombardment Group (Heavy) was based at Old Buckenham, England with
B-24s from Dec 43 to May 45.  At one time in 1944, the Group Operations
Officer was a famous movie star and one of the group radio operator/gunners,
a Staff Sergeant, was a future movie star.  One is obvious but who was the
enlisted man?

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Aug 1994 10:20:56 -0700
From:    Ed Kettler <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP:German H-Class BBs

If the shells are the same ballistically (drag, mass, etc) it would
simplify gunnery.  The AP had 41.447 pounds of explosive filler, SAP
71.871 and HE 141.647 (18.3, 32.6 and 64.25 KG).  They would also have to
be fired at the same muzzle velocity and elevation.

Ed Kettler                                       [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Aug 1994 10:21:30 -0700
From:    Jim Kelley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Trivia

AUDIE MURPHY!!!

just kiddin'

====================================================================
Jim Kelley       <> I am not sincere, even when I say I am not.
Phd TEX BS       <>
WWII Vet Admirer <>
====================================================================

___Original Letter _______________________________________
Date: 28 Aug 1994 10:08:00 -0700
Sender:   World War II Discussion List       (WWII-L)
From:     mc killop                          (JEM3)
To:       Multiple recipients of list WWII-L (WWII-L)
Reply-To: World War II Discussion List       (WWII-L)
Subject: Trivia

___End of Original Letter_________________________________

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Aug 1994 11:14:24 -0500
From:    Bill Smith <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Information

Your first, best, and often only source for WWII records is the National
Military Recods Center in St. Louis.  CAVEAT:  Pray your dad wasn't an
enlisted.  A major fire at NMRC in the 1970s destroyed almost all the
enlisted service records.  I don't have their address handy at the
office, e-mail me direct if you need it.  NMRC will take about 3-4 months
to produce an answer.  You write them a letter, they send you back a form
to fill out, you return the form, they acknowledge receipt, then you
probably get another form back asking for more information, then finally
a positive or negative answer on availability of records.  To speed the
wheel, you need SSN, date of enlistment, date of discharge, service unit,
service theater -- in other words, almost all the data you probably don't
have beyond the SSN.

Good Luck!

On Fri, 26 Aug 1994, John Stroebel wrote:

> Would anyone know how I might obtain the military records of a WWII vet?
> I lost my father when I was a boy, and would be interested in reading his
> records. TIA, JS
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 03:34:13 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Subject: 50TH: IS PARIS BURNING?

  August 28, 1994
  A Norwegian TV station last night showed IS PARIS BURNING?  After seeing it, I
have reread this portion of Martin Blumensen's BREAKOUT AND PURSUIT.
  The films certainly tells the story well and, in general terms, accurately.
It is primarily an account of the role of the Resistance, but the negotiations
with the Allied commands and the entry of the 2nd Armored and 4th Infantry are
also covered.
  There were a number of detailed changes in the facts which crept in, no doubt
due to the requirements of the film art.  One should not, therefore, take
literally every scene that is shown.  The general picture given, however, is
correct.
  The casting was by and large excellent, with one exception.  Gen. Bradley was
not quite as handsome as Glen Ford.
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Aug 1994 14:40:45 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INFORMATION

'Afternoon, ben...
        'Was thinking of you yesterday, when the bagpipes and drums band
of the Irish Guards marched in review before prince Edward, here at the
Commonwealth Games in Victoria, BC.
        The pipe were the "Irish" version -- complete with ochre kilt
(not tartan) and green cloaks. A splendid sight -- and sound!
Regards -- Sidney.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Aug 1994 14:42:33 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 50TH: LIBERATION O

For a clear-eyed look at how it really was -- Resistance and collaborateurs
-- read THE FRENCH AGAINST THE FRENCH.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Aug 1994 14:59:16 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Media:Operation RIMAU

Yes, that Australian movie about JAYWICK was well done.
One of the then-unknown actors in it was Sam Neill ( a New Zealander)
I have the vague idea that a younf Mel Gibson was in the movie, too.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Aug 1994 15:17:26 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: NORWAY's HEROES

There is a very thorough review of underground resistance in Norway in
the book, WE DIE ALONE, by David Howarth.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Aug 1994 15:26:36 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Trivia

That aerial-gunner future movie sar would have been Walter Matthau.
Regards -- Sidney.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Aug 1994 15:56:47 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Russo-Finnish War

Doug McCabe...
        Another thoughtful account of the Winter War is:
                STUDY IN SISU: Finland's Fight For Indedependence,
        by Austin Goodrich, Ballantine Books, 1960.
Excellent in-depth aproach, starting with Finland's first fight for
independence, from Russia, in 1918 -- then a detailed account of the
Winter War 1939-1940.
        If you don't already have it, it's well-wworth tracking down
a copy.
Regards -- Sidney.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Aug 1994 18:00:30 EDT
From:    RICHARD KING <[email-masked]>
Subject: Addr: Von Choltitz

Didn't I read in IS PARIS BURNING? that one reason von Choltitz
was placed in charge of Paris was that his track record for
bombing cities was excellent and he was viewed as a general
who would follow orders without question in case Paris needed
to be leveled? According to IS PARIS BURNING?, Choltitz gave
the orders that "destroyed the heart of Rotterdam."
A Choltitz quote of interest: "Since Sebastopol," he would one day
confess to a Swedish diplomat in Paris, "it has been my fate to
cover the retreat of our armies and to destroy the cities behind
them."
    I'm not doubting you, Terry, just curious about this man
who disobeyed the orders to destroy Paris. Does anyone know
how reliable IS PARIS BURNING? is?
Richard L. King
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Aug 1994 20:28:04 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: TRV:  ROOSEVELT AND AB

Somehow I rather doubt that Roosevelt used absinthe. He was, on the other hand,
very proud of his martinis and it is quite possible he use the eyedropper to
put just the right amount of vermouth in the gin. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Aug 1994 20:40:48 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: ENOLA GAY CONTINUED

Jack, not only do we want future generations to understand and appreciate the
challenges and efforts of those who fought and lost their lives in WWII, it is
important that this present generation understand also. I am amazed at some of
the questions which appear on the WWII list from individuals, well meaning, who
haven't the faintest concept of what went on in WWII, the battles which were
fought, and the sacrifices which were made. I often think of my old comrades
who died in the war, and they will always remain 18 and 19 in my memory. I
bvbecome quite emotional, as I did during the commemoration of Normandy's
D-Day, whenever I see the rows of crosses and Stars of David, each representing
a life unfulfilled, a life that could have been very important to the history
of our country. The Enola Gay matter, to me, and I have reviewed the script and
been one of the Service military historians commenting, is revisionism at its
worst. Everything that could be said about it has been said. As it now stands,
the exhibit is an insult to the memory of those who fought in the Pacific,
especially. Changes in the slant of the exhibit have been promised, but I will
reserve judgement. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Aug 1994 20:40:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 29 AUG 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
TUESDAY, 29 AUGUST 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-6, North American Mustang
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 8 B-25s attack targets in Katha
and hit 2 bridges just N of the town area; 8 P-51s attack Bilumyo; 5 P-47s
destroy a road bridge at Mainghka and 5 others hit buildings in Bhamo; and HQ
80th Fighter Group moves from Nagaghuli, India to Tingkawk Sakan.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 24 B-24s escorted by 45 fighters,
blast railroad yards at Yoyang; 15 B-25s bomb Pailochi, White Cloud, Tien Ho,
and Hankow Airfields; 10 others hit trucks and other targets of opportunity
from Hengyang to Yoyang, from Hankow to Chinchiang, and near Anjen; 18 P-40s
hit a storage area and targets of opportunity around Tangyang; 17 attack
trucks and buildings from Siangtan to Changsha; 14 P-40s claim 8 fighters
downed over Shayang; 22 others attack trucks, supplies, and troops at Wuhu,
Ichang, S of Isuho, SW of Lungling, and N of Hengshan; and the 491st
Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 341st Bombardment Group (Medium), based at
Yankai, sends a detachment to operate from Liuchow with B-25s.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Twentieth Air Force): Major General Curtis Emerson
LeMay becomes Commanding General XX Bomber Command with HQ at Kharagpur,
India.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Bad weather restricts bomber
operations. 104 of 202 P-38s and P-47s attack transportation targets in
France, Belgium and Germany; 2 airfields, 3 marshalling yards, rail lines at
several points, and a large number of rail and road vehicles are attacked;
they claim 20-0-7 aircraft on the ground; 3 P-47s are lost (pilots are MIA)
and 8 damaged.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, bad weather allows only
minimum bomber and fighter operations; B-26s attack 1 fuel dump while a few
fighters fly sweeps over NW France; 100+ C-47s complete supply and evacuation
missions; HQ 48th Fighter Group and 492d, 493d and 494th Fighter Squadrons
move from Deux Jumeaux to Villacoublay with P-47s; HQ 67th Tactical
Reconnaissance Group and 107th and 109th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadrons
move from Le Molay to Toussus le Noble with F-6s. HQ 404th Fighter Group and
the 506th Fighter Squadron move from Chapelle to Bretigny with P-47s; HQ
474th Fighter Group moves from Neuilly to St Marceau; and the 586th
Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 394th Bombardment Group (Medium), moves from
Holmsley, England to Tour-en-Bassin with B-26s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 550 bombers strike targets in
Italy, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, and Yugoslavia; in Italy, communications
targets in the Po Valley and railway bridges at Ferrara, Salzano, and
Ferrara; in Czechoslovakia, oil refineries and communications targets in the
Silesian Plain, including the Bohumin area, steel works and marshalling yard,
Moravska-Ostrava marshalling yard, oil refineries and industrial area
including, tank works, and marshalling yards; in the Hungarian Plain,
marshalling yards at Szolnok and Szeged, and a railway bridge at Szeged; and
in Yugoslavia, a railway bridge at Borovnica; P-38s bomb Latisana Bridge,
Italy.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium bombers hit 4
bridges and a viaduct in NE Italy while A-20s hit a fuel station; fighter-
bombers hit roads and bridges in N Italy and support ground forces in the
Arno River Valley; P-47s fly medium bomber escort and armed reconnaissance,
claiming 100 vehicles destroyed. In France, fighters attack targets in the
Rhone Valley; and the 316th Fighter Squadron, 324th Fighter Group, moves from
Corsica to Le Luc with P-47s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): Saipan Island-based B-24s bomb Iwo Jima and
Pagan Islands during the evening. P-47s strafe AA positions on Pagan Island
while a B-24 on armed reconnaissance bombs Yap Island. Gilbert Island-based
B-25s bomb Nauru Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: In the Palau
Islands, B-24s bomb Koror, and Malakal Islands, a seaplane base on Arakabesan
Island, and supply area N of Ingesebus Airfield. B-24s bomb barracks at
Amboina on Ambon Island and P-38s hit a seaplane base at Halong on the
Celebes Island. In New Guinea, the 22d Troop Carrier Squadron, 374th Troop
Carrier Group, moves from Garbutt Field, Australia to Finschhafen with C-47s;
and the 868th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), Thirteenth Air Force, moves from
Los Negros Island to Noemfoor Island with B-24s (the squadron uses airborne
radar for low-level attacks at night and PFF operations).

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

29/0043Z AUG

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Aug 1994 20:53:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Media:Operation RIMAU

 >Yes, that Australian movie about JAYWICK was well done.
 >One of the then-unknown actors in it was Sam Neill ( a New Zealander)
 >I have the vague idea that a younf Mel Gibson was in the movie, too.

The film probably was ATTACK FORCE Z, an Australian-Taiwanese film released
in 1981.  It starred John Philip Law, Sam Neill, Mel Gibson, Chris Haywood,
and John Waters.  According to Leonard Maltin, it was "a taut little war
drama about commandoes set out to rescue survivors of a plane crash on a
Japanese-held island during WWII.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Aug 1994 20:24:35 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: French Resistance(?)

The British attack on the French fleet at Mers-El-Kebir did
  nothing to keep the French on the Anglo-Allied side.

On the other hand:  :-)

Hardy Kruger -- the compactly built German actor -- was asked
  (during the filming of "A Bridge Too Far") what he did during
  the war and answered that he had been a teenage Wehrmacht
  soldier.

There was some askance at this by his European reporter where-
  upon Hardy observed that not every German was a NAZI, just like
  not every Frenchman was a member of the Maquis.  (!)

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Aug 1994 11:26:24 GMT-660
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: <No subject given>

SUBSCRIPTION - James farquharson
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Aug 1994 20:31:31 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Importance of due credit.

John Ausland makes a good point.  After you've lost friends,
  family, whatever, ... fighting for something, you want to
  be sure that due credit is awarded.

The outrage at Clinton's election and attempt to impose
  homosexuality on the services was in part a sense of
  national ingratitude and betrayal felt by national-security-
  serving people who had won the Cold War for the Country only
  to be rewarded with ...  :-I

It all is/gets ultimately personal.  (Remember Yossarian in
  "Catch 22" maintaining that the Jaegerflieger were out to
  get *him*?

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Aug 1994 20:48:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INFORMATION

 >'Afternoon, ben...
 >        'Was thinking of you yesterday, when the bagpipes and drums band
 >of the Irish Guards marched in review before prince Edward, here at the
 >Commonwealth Games in Victoria, BC.
 >        The pipe were the "Irish" version -- complete with ochre kilt
 >(not tartan) and green cloaks. A splendid sight -- and sound!
 >Regards -- Sidney.

And what else would they be?

Jack McKillop

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Aug 1994 18:46:44 -0700
From:    Jim Kelley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INFORMATION

Got me, Jack. I only know of one.

Jim

___Original Letter _______________________________________
Date: 28 Aug 1994 17:48:00 -0700
Sender:   World War II Discussion List       (WWII-L)
From:     mc killop                          (JEM3)
To:       Multiple recipients of list WWII-L (WWII-L)
Reply-To: World War II Discussion List       (WWII-L)
Subject: Re: INFORMATION

 >'Afternoon, ben...
 >        'Was thinking of you yesterday, when the bagpipes and drums band
 >of the Irish Guards marched in review before prince Edward, here at the
 >Commonwealth Games in Victoria, BC.
 >        The pipe were the "Irish" version -- complete with ochre kilt
 >(not tartan) and green cloaks. A splendid sight -- and sound!
 >Regards -- Sidney.

And what else would they be?

Jack McKillop
___End of Original Letter_________________________________

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Aug 1994 22:01:00 -0500
From:    Colin Brace <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA: Is Paris Burning

          I have the Video of IS PARIS BURNING? that John Ausland mentioned.

          ISBM 0-7921-1972-X
          Paramount Pictures/video/media/whatever catalog # is 6603.

          It is also closed captioned, and IS NOT colorized, horray!

          But John, Kirk Douglas as Patton?

          Good entertainment, though.

          Colin Brace WA1KWA

          [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Aug 1994 21:09:19 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ENOLA GAY on David Brinkley's

Jack (et al),

     I caught this also -- one of the few times I see TV is
when visiting my parents in Rock Island.

     I noted that even Cokie Roberts concurred against WWII
historical "revisionism" of the kind (like the Smithsonian's)
that takes events from their historical contexts and attempts
to moralize on them in an ideological context.

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Aug 1994 22:18:00 -0500
From:    Colin Brace <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Media: ATTACK FORCE Z

          I don't think the one I was thinking about was ATTACK FORCE Z. In
          the film I'm racking my brain on, the group sailed in a fishing
          boat from Australia, changed flag to the Japanese flag somewhere in
          the Indonesian arpaegelo, sailed to a deserted island just off
          Singapore, and proceed to put mines on ship(s). Some made it back
          to Australia on the same fishing boat. Obviously I'm fuzzy on the
          details, but that's the general idea of the film.
          Was Australian made, though.

          Colin Brace WA1KWA

          [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Aug 1994 21:48:15 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: MODELS & GAMES:  GenCon debriefing

By popular request:

1. I got 2 hrs of sleep finishing the models Thurs night -- er,
  Friday morning -- having to be at FINESCALE MODELER in Waukesha
  WI by 10:30 AM.  I got off an hour late, raised my max. speed
  limit, made every refueling/route decision *right*, and pulled
  into the Kalmbach Publishing parking lot at 10:29 AM!
    Had a nice chat with Bob Hadyn(sp?), the chief editor, and
  was escorted by him to Darla -- the pretty photographer.  She/
  we took about a dozen photos to accompany my article submitted.
  (I could get *paid* for this!)  She had second thoughts about
  my invitation to lunch.  :-(

2. After FSM, I headed NE to Cedarburg and MODEL SHIPBUILDER.  I
  hadn't finished my article for MSB, but Jeff was fascinated and
  took some photos anyway.  My 1:1200 SIMS attracted as much
  interest as the (1:600/720) PERTH and TROMP cruisers.  Jeff
  remarked that a subscriber had just sent in a letter asking if
  there was any model available of the TROMP!  (Life is timing!)

3. With no help from "one of the most beautiful girls on the
  planet" -- I don't even know what her grudge is about! -- I
  nonetheless found a motel room for $25 a night.  ('Had the
  bridal suite, no less.  The gods mock me!)  True, the phone
  was in the parking lot, but ...  :-)

4. NO ONE had signed up for my GERMAN EAGLE VS. RUSSIAN BEAR
  tournament at GenCon!  :-(  A passerby got interested, though,
  and we had a heck of a game.  I *won*!  :-)

5. Sunday morning, about 6 (older) fellows and I re-negotiated
  and refought Mers-El-Kebir.
    I guess this was role-playing as well as miniatures, since
  I had the French admiral secretly roll to find out what his
  orders would be:  Remember Dunkirk! (and sink as many
  traitorous English ships as possible), break out and head for
  Toulon, or join the British.
    It turned out that the French admiral had experience as a
  *labor negotiator*!  :-)  He started things off by directing
  HMS Foxhound (carrying the English side's intermediary) to
  Oran, instead of Mers-El-Kebir.  This delayed/stalled
  negotiations an extra hour, of course.  Our Gensoul then set
  up a "routine DD patrol" off the harbor entrance (which then
  enabled a smokescreen to cover the port, once the British
  commander's patience ran out and the shooting began).

    Finally, the British commander ran out of patience, and
  festivities -- er, hostilities -- began:  a welcome relief
  from the tedious (if actually brief) diplomatic prelude.

    The upshot of all this was the French fleet making it to
  sea -- with a crippled BRETAGNE limping behind -- only to
  run into a matrix of Brit DD torpedoes.  (A number of Brit
  DDs paid the ultimate for the pleasure, though.)

    My shore batteries had a lengthy duel with HOOD and
  VALIANT.  Over to the West, Ft. Stanton gutted the lead
  Brit DD.

    No capital sinkings at the moment we disbanded, but
  STRASBOURG was heavily damaged and DUNKERQUE (badly) damaged.

    It turned out our Gensoul's secret orders had been the 1/6
  "Remember Dunkirk!"  We gave the 1st Place certificate to the
  poor fellow who had tried to play CAPT Holland:  the
  intermediary between our equivocating Gensoul and intractable
  Somerville.  (The actual personalities were entirely
  consistent with the historical ones.)

    My naval miniature rules were popular (again) with everyone
  except the British commander (whose luck didn't balance until
  the last torpedo rolls).

    Incidentally, Frank Chadwick told me later in the day that
  he had used my "thumbs" status recording idea in GDW's new
  science fiction game.  (I got a free copy of BLOOD AND
  THUNDER, as well as his fair credit/honesty for my un-copy-
  rightable concept.  Frank is a good guy.)  He also jumped on
  me about getting my rules on paper -- again.  :-)

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Aug 1994 21:51:05 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Media: ATTACK FORCE Z

The Brits (or Aussies) *did* mine the Japanese heavy cruiser
  TAKAO in Singapore harbor, toward the end of the war.  I think
  they used frogmen.

Anyone have additional info?  Personally, I'd pass up the chance
  to go frogging in seasnake water.  (Pete Webster told us some
  hair-raising stories about encountering them in VN, one day.)

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 27 Aug 1994 to 28 Aug 1994
*************************************************