Subject: WWII-L Digest - 28 Aug 1994 to 29 Aug 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 30 Aug 1994 00:00:37 -0400

There are 50 messages totalling 1706 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Spitfire from S6 racing floatplane
  2. Trivia
  3. 50TH: A VISIT IN 1992 TO CHOISY-LE-ROI
  4. INFORMATION
  5. Hammelburg Debacle
  6. WWII B-24 Found In Australia (3)
  7. 50TH: LIBERATION OF PARIS
  8. INF: 50 Years Ago - 29-AUG-1944 (2)
  9. ENOLA GAY Press Release (3)
 10. GEN: Churchill, Conventry, Ultra (Backround info wanted
 11. Importance of due credit.
 12. INF: USN Chronology 08-27-94
 13. INF: USN Chronology 08-28-94
 14. WEAP:German H-Class BBs
 15. [WEAP] German "H-Class" battleships (3)
 16. INF: USN Chronology 08-29-94
 17. [WEAP] aircraft used to ram other aircraft thread...
 18. Veterans on this WWII list.
 19. GEN: MAINLY ABOUT THE ENOLA GAY EXHIBIT (2)
 20. TRIVIA: SMALL AIRCRAFT OVER PARIS ON AUGUST 26, 1944
 21. TAC/TRV: ABEMAMA
 22. GEN: Modeling Company
 23. ADMIN: Re: Importance of due credit.
 24. [INF] USAAF 28 AUG 44 (4)
 25. INF: 50 Years Ago - 30-AUG-1944
 26. Hiroshima
 27. GEN:83rd CMB
 28. request for help
 29. Small European countries in WWII (2)
 30. WEAP: German"H-Class battleships
 31. MEDIA: Attack Force Z
 32. French Resistance(?)
 33. NORWAY's HEROES
 34. [INF] USAAF 30 AUG 44
 35. P-47 vs P-51
 36. A Joint U.S.-Japanese school film on Pearl Harbor and Hiroshima?
 37. The War in the Pacific:  AN AMERICAN PERSPECTIVE ?????
 38. MODELS:  Belarus model tanks (1:87)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 14:26:27 EST
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Spitfire from S6 racing floatplane

An enduring 'urban myth' is appearing with regard to the link between the S6
and S6B racing planes and the Spitfire. The Spitfire did NOT evolve from the
racing floatplanes. Mitchell DID gain experience in high performance monoplanes
when designing the S6's that he applied to the design of the Spitfire. The S6
had monocoque fusalage, but had braced, not cantilever, wings. (Have a look at
he pictures - you can see the wires.) The S6 serires did also use the Rolls
Royce PV12 engine, which was a very early version of what later became the
Merlin. The S6 series did have a lot in common with the first 'Spitfire', the
gull-winged prototype that Mitchell designed to meet the original Air Ministry
spec that eventually led to the Hurricane and Spitfire. This design was named
"Spitfire" by the Air Ministry, but never went beyond prototype stage.

The 'famous' Spitfire (as opposed to the gull-winged, spatted undercarriage
one) applied much of what Mitchell had learned about high performance aircraft
with the racing planes in terms of streamlining and high power engines, but the
actual design owed very little to the racers.

For a very good read about the history of the Spitfire, try "Spitfire" by
Jeffrey Quill ( the Supermarine test pilot ). A good general history of the
Spitfire, such as the ones by Alfred Price are also recommended.

The WW-II movie about the Spitfire is very good as a movie, but it was supposed
to be feel-good propoganda and as such takes much creative liberty with the
true story. ( Sir Reginald Mitchell was a brilliant engineer, not some
daydreaming birdwatcher as implied by the movie.)

BTW. Mitchell died after the Spifire prototype flew, but before it saw active
service.

David Murnain
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Aug 1994 22:00:20 -0700
From:    Terry Yeung <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Trivia

> That aerial-gunner future movie sar would have been Walter Matthau.
> Regards -- Sidney.
>
> --

        Hmm.. didn't he serve in a bomber unit commanded by Jimmy Stewart?
I was just watching the documentary about Jimmy Stewart the other day and I
believe Walter Mattau was interviewed because he served in Stewart's unit.

--
Terry Yeung                             \ Internet: [email-masked]
Anime Expo '94 Registration Supervisor   \ Expo: [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 04:03:54 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Subject: 50TH: A VISIT IN 1992 TO CHOISY-LE-ROI

  Col. Rol-Tanguy, who played an important role in the liberation of Paris as
one of the Resistance leaders, is now eighty and appeared on French TV a number
of times in recent days.  He says he is still a Communist.  This can only mean
that he is still a very brave man, because only a brave person could remain
a Communist today, after Communism's recent debacles.
  This reminds me a yet another anecdote, about a revisit to Choisy-le-Roe in
1992, when doing research for my book.  (This was the town we occupied for a
couple of days, in order to guard the bridge there over the Seine.)
  During the visit, my wife and I called on the mayor, Louis Luc.  It emerged
during our talk that he had been a young man in 1944.  He, along with eleven
other young men, was condemned to death as a reprisal.  He was the only one
that managed to escape.
  He was very hospitable and gave us a book about the town.  It included
pictures of the entry of the 4th.  When looking at the book, I noted that one of
the pictures had a woman hanging a flag with a hammer and sickle out her window.
  Later, when reading the book, I found that the town had played host to the
North Vietnamese during the negotiations in Paris.
  This prompted me to make inquiries, and I learned that Luc's wife is leader of
the Communist Party in the French Senate and that Choisy-le-Roi is generally
considered a Communist district.
  The strange and interesting things one learns as he drifts through life....
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 02:29:41 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INFORMATION

Actually, to be accurate, the pipers of the Irish Guards wear a saffron kilt,
which makes a nice combination with their green tunics and cabeens. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Aug 1994 23:45:53 -0700
From:    Ron Skinner <[email-masked]>
Subject: Hammelburg Debacle

As most here likely know, in late March of '45 Patton dispatched an
armored task force to the town of Hammelburg--some 40 to 60 miles beyond
his lines--for the purpose of liberating a PoW camp where his son-in-law
was being held.

I'm searching for authoritative  references on the subject and would
much appreciate any help list members might be able to provide.
Specifically, I'm interested in any contemporaneous articles or postwar
interviews with Capt Baum, the task force commander, or Major Stiller, a
Patton aide who accompanied the force, as well as other survivors. Was
this debacle fully aired, or were the details lost in the euphoria of
victory?

Thanks,

Ron Skinner

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 07:12:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: WWII B-24 Found In Australia

The Associated Press (AP) is reporting that the wreckage of a WWII
Consolidated B-24D Liberator has been found in rough terrain in central
Queensland, Australia near the city of Rockhampton, approximately 310 miles
(499 km) N of Brisbane.  The plane disappeared on a routine flight on 26 Feb
45 with 6 Americans and 2 Brits aboard.  The aircraft had slammed into a hill;
the nose is badly damaged, the tail is broken off but the wings and engines
are intact.  The wreckage was first spotted in Jul 94 but the news was
withheld out of respect for the 8 dead men.

Do our colleagues "Down Under" have any additional information?

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 07:52:24 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 50TH: LIBERATION OF PARIS

Being pigheaded, I subjected myself to several messages inre: the liberation
of Paris being done by "the French" , " The Americans", "The Free French",
"DeGAulle", etc. Come on guys...

We ALL know that France was liberated by the "Allies". This INCLUDES all of
the above, including people from Canada, Australia, Poland, and all over
the free world.

The problem is the spin being placed upon the war by the media. Remember all
the coverage during the D-Day commerations blaming the Americans (Yes, the
Americans) for bombing French civilians? I remember a man being interviewed
claiming the Germans were scholarly, civilized folk, who harmed nobody until
those Americans came, and started killing everybody.

The problem is the new spin that degrades those who fought (on both sides)
and what they fought for for the sake of historical revisionism.

For the sake of history guys, please don't stop telling us how it really was!

I, for one, appreciate what went on, and remain grateful. At least I try.

There, I said it.
                                                                STEVE

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - [email-masked] |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 07:52:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: 50 Years Ago - 29-AUG-1944

The following was from John Davis' excellent posts about WWII, this one for
29 Aug 44.
 >
 >The Homefront
 >-------------
 >Republican Campaign Opens - The Republicans have opened the presidential
 >campaign with national radio broadcasts charging that President Roosevelt was
 >renominated "by New Deal bosses" and "corrupt political machines"; while the
 >Republican program has been charted by "the people, represented by their
 >governors in 26 states."

Fifty years later and we are still hearing the same bovine excrement.  You
wonder when the people will get wise.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 09:31:51 EDT
From:    Kim Riddle <[email-masked]>
Subject: ENOLA GAY Press Release

The following press release was distributed this morning by the
Smithsonian's National Air and Space Museum.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Aug. 29, 1994

NATIONAL AIR AND SPACE MUSEUM
ANNOUNCES CHANGES TO EXHIBITION
FEATURING THE ENOLA GAY AND THE END OF WWII

The Smithsonian's National Air and Space Museum has announced that an
exhibition focusing on World War II in the Pacific Theater from 1937 to
1945 has been added to the upcoming exhibition "The Last Act: The
Atomic Bomb and the End of World War II."

The new exhibition, tentatively titled "The War in the Pacific: An
American Perspective," is being added in response to complaints from
veterans' organizations and military historians that "The Last Act" was
unbalanced in that it did not provide sufficient context about the
origins of World War II.

"After reviewing the original exhibition script many times," National
Air and Space Museum Director Martin Harwit said, "we felt that their
concerns were valid, and we think this new exhibit--coupled with
changes within the original exhibition--addresses those concerns."

"American Perspective" will focus on the ways that Americans
experienced the Pacific War, both on the battlefield and on the home
front.  The background for the exhibition will be the major military
engagements of the Pacific, beginning in 1937 when Japan embarked on
the conquest of China and continuing with the attack on Pearl Harbor on
Dec. 7, 1941, and the major carrier battles and costly assaults on
Pacific islands that followed.  The photo exhibition will end with the
capture of Okinawa by American forces, in June 1945.  Against that
setting, photographic images will show views of the war as seen by
individual soldiers, sailors, marines and airmen.

The exhibition will occupy an area of approximately 4,000 square feet
and will consist of approximately 50 photographs.  "American
Perspective" will also include a Grumman F6F-3 Hellcat, the most
successful carrier-based fighter in World War II.  The exhibition will
be located in the "Special Aircraft Exhibitions" gallery space in the
museum, directly adjacent to "The Last Act."  Each visitor to "The Last
Act" will first pass through "American Perspective."

"Every major exhibition or film undergoes a very thorough review
process," Harwit said.  "As 'The Last Act' went through this process, a
number of military historians and representatives of veterans'
organizations expressed their concerns that the exhibition did not
include enough information about the origins of World War II and
Japanese expansionism and aggression in the late 1930s and early war
years.  Because the focus of the exhibition was the final months of the
conflict, they were concerned that an uninformed visitor would leave
the exhibition with the false impression that Japan was the victim and
the United States the aggressor."

A central feature of "The Last Act" will be the forward fuselage of the
B-29 Enola Gay, the aircraft that dropped the first atomic bomb on
Hiroshima, Japan, on Aug. 6, 1945.  The restoration of the Enola Gay is
the largest such project in the museum's history, costing the museum
nearly $1 million and requiring more than 35,000 hours of labor since
the restoration effort began in 1984.

"The Last Act" will focus on five areas: the Pacific War in the summer
of 1945, the decision to develop and use atomic bombs, the two
missions, the effects of the bombings on the cities of Hiroshima and
Nagasaki, and the legacy of the bombings.

"American Perspective" will be curated and designed by a team of
National Air and Space Museum staff members.  The exhibition team
includes Col. Tom Alison, USAF (Ret.), curator of military aircraft;
Lt. Col. Donald Lopez, USAF (Ret.), former deputy director of the
National Air and Space Museum; Capt. E.T. Wooldridge, USN (Ret.),
former chairman of the department of aeronautics and current Ramsey
Fellow (naval aviation historian); and Nadya Makovenyi, assistant
director for exhibits and public spaces.

SI-325-94

posted by:
Kim
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 08:51:13 -0500
From:    "Sidney W. Kitchel" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: Churchill, Conventry, Ultra (Backround info wanted

John Stroebel writes to the list:
|-> There is a very interesting 2-book set, published around 1988, "Bodyguard
|-> of Lies". (sorry, I do not know the author) The title came from a quote (I
|-> believe by Churchill) that "In time of war, truth needs to be protected by a
|->  bodyguard of lies". This may be the book refered to, but I do not think so.
|->         This book deals with the allied successes in breaking German
|-> cypher in WWII through the "Enigma" de-coding machine, an early computer.
|-> Evedence is given that Churchill did have knowlege of the raid on
|-> Coventry, well in advance and did not put one extra plane in the air or one
|-> extra AAA in place. His reason was that to do so might tip off the Germans
|->  that their code system was cracked.

        _Bodyguard of Lies_ was by a guy named Brown. I agree it is an
excellent book. It repeats the story told by Group Capt. Winterbothom
that Churchill knew in advance about the Coventry raid and chose not
to act on the information in order to protect the Ultra source. More
recent books, such as Hinsley's _Codebreakers_ have put doubt on this
episode's truth. Hinsley's book is a compendium of first-hand
autobiographical accounts of people making Ultra at Bletchley Park.
The people actually doing the decodes doubt that Churchill had the
information in time to act upon it.
        _Codebreakers_ is interesting especially in how it shows the
human side of Ultra. I'll try to bring it into work to post some
quotes. Many of the people at Bletchley Park were particualarly pissed
at dear ole Monty for his handling of Ultra in the desert war.
Apparently Ultra was providing very precise info. on the bad state of
German resources while Monty was often sitting on his hands wondering
whether it was the right time to move forward.
                                                          --Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel           [email-masked], [email-masked]
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 09:55:37 -0400
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Importance of due credit.

>John Ausland makes a good point.  After you've lost friends,
>  family, whatever, ... fighting for something, you want to
>  be sure that due credit is awarded.

I especially agree when it seems that something as inane as politics is the
device that keeps histical credit from being delivered.

>The outrage at Clinton's election and attempt to impose
>  homosexuality on the services was in part a sense of
>  national ingratitude and betrayal felt by national-security-
>  serving people who had won the Cold War for the Country only
>  to be rewarded with ...  :-I

I don't want to start any flame wars but since Mr. Coatney felt obligated
to express his opinions, I just wanted to counter that this non-WWII
related thread (hint) of his can be easily rebuked by the opposing opinions
of many combat and non-combat veterans that I have met and talked with.  I
do not except his use of the verbeage related to President Clintons
election and his attempt to allow U.S. CITIZENS to assist in the defense of
this nation and its freedoms as a national betrayal.  If Mr. Coatney
really feel the need to express his political views, isn't there a
political discussion board that would truely be a more appropriate place to
toss mud.

Note to the list...  I am sorry I wasted your time with this thread but I
did feel obligated to respond in a public forum.  Any further discussion on
this thread will be off-line (I promise).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka                                         National Warplane Museum
Cornell University                                 Geneseo, New York
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 10:05:05 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ENOLA GAY Press Release

And how many letters from Japanese and American veterans saying that
they are glad the bombs were dropped, because they are alive today are
in the exhibit?

                                                                Steve

I haven't yet deciced wether to turn in my memberships yet. It is the
surse of my existance that I happen to loathe the PC crowd. IMHO they
are the new Nazi's.
                                                                SEP
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - [email-masked] |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 07:05:06 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 08-27-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
08/27 Sun. Submarine STINGRAY (SS-186) lands men and supplies on north-
           west coast of Luzon, P. I.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 07:05:10 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 08-28-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
08/28 Mon.  Japanese naval vessel sunk:
             Submarine chaser NO. 77, by Army aircraft, Kurile Islands
              area.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 08:42:10 EST
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: WEAP:German H-Class BBs

I think there is some confusion here between the H-Class battleships,
two of which were laid down, and the various H design projects (H41-H44).
The H-class were of about 56,000 tons standard displacement, mounting
8-16" guns.  The H design projects ranged from about 64,000 tons to
well over 100,000 tons (figures vary with sources from 111,000 to 144,000)
and mounting 8-19.7" guns.
*************************************************
(Roger) Brad Coon            "Lions are basically
[email-masked]          scavengers of
[email-masked]    hyaena kills."
                              Hans Kruuk

Kill a lion, save a hyaena!
Boycott Disney lionist propaganda!
*************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 09:35:15 CDT
From:    Robert Hohlt <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [WEAP] German "H-Class" battleships

CARL WERNKE wrote on 27 Aug 1994:

 >German "H-Class" battleships that were planned, but never built. This class
 >would have produced the largest warships in the world; even larger than
 >today's ENTERPRISE and  NIMITZ class nuclear-powered aircraft carriers.

Ok I'm astounded.  That sounds monstrous.  Carl, can you give us more details,
like armor, main weapon, secondary weapon, top speed,... that sort of info?

Also for anyone else,  we (USA) were developing a MONTANA class battleship
right?  Bigger than the IOWAs With close to the size of the Yamato or Musashi
yet with  12  16' .50s.  right???

can anyone verify this and provide details and specs?

Astounded,

Robert Hohlt, Jr.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 07:36:00 -0700
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: 50 Years Ago - 29-AUG-1944

>  >The Homefront
>  >-------------
>  >Republican Campaign Opens - The Republicans have opened the presidential
>  >campaign with national radio broadcasts charging that President Roosevelt was
>  >renominated "by New Deal bosses" and "corrupt political machines"; while the
>  >Republican program has been charted by "the people, represented by their
>  >governors in 26 states."
>
> Fifty years later and we are still hearing the same bovine excrement.  You
> wonder when the people will get wise.

I thought the very same thing when I found the entry in my sources.
Politics never seems to change, only the issues. BTW - love your term
"bovine excrement". Thats a great one.

JD

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 07:05:14 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 08-29-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
08/29 Tue.  Japanese naval vessel sunk:
             Minesweeper NO. 28, by submarine JACK (SS-259), off the
              Celebes,
              02 d. 03'N., 122 d. 28'E.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 09:46:30 CDT
From:    Robert Hohlt <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [WEAP] aircraft used to ram other aircraft thread...

Continuing the aircraft used for ramming purposes thread, I went back
and looked in my Computer Game manual for LucasFilms' "Secret Weapons
of the Luftwaffe" game and there on pages 210 - 211 are these passages:

  For those occasions when the U.S. squadrons could not be intercepted
from the front, Galland developed the Sturmgruppen tactics, which called
for specially modified FW 190s, with four 30mm cannons, 5 to 12 mm thick
armor plating around the pilot and engine, and a 50mm thick bullet proof
windscreen, to attack from the rear, from slightly above or below the
bomber's tails.  The Sturmgruppe would attack from extremely close range,
usually at 300 feet or less, where the 30mm cannon of the FW 190 was most
accurate and lethal.  Several Gruppen of lighter-armed Bf 109s would
protect the Sturmgruppe and take on the escorting U.S. fighter. If P-47s
or P-51s broke through the protective cover the Sturmgruppe fighters
would continue to press their attacks on the bombers anyway, since with
all their extra armor and weaponry they were extremely heavy, and less
maneuverable against the U.S. fighters.

from Lawrence Holland(?)
-------------------------------

  When I came to Germany as a fighter commander, only the FW 190s were
attacking the four-engined bombers and the Bf 109s were used as
protection for the 190s.  Most of the attacks I saw were from front to
head.  If the bombers realized that the 190s were coming, they often made
a certain curve of ten or fifteen degrees in the other direction, an angle
that made it very difficult for the 190s to come in front again.  Also
there were four groups called the Sturm groups who were attacking bombers
from behind.  When the bomber didn't burn or wasn't dismantled, the Sturm
fighters rammed it in the rudder and elevator.  They had a lot of special
armor, made up of a lot of different light metal plates, and a little
window with different plates on it.  This armor was in the front of the
fighter, not behind, and in my opinion, it was good protection.  I saw a
lot of German pilots bailing out after they rammed the bomber because, if
they did it properly, they had a good chance to survive.

from Luftwaffe General Walter Krupinski.
----------------------------------------

Ok there it is from my GAME manual, thought you guys would enjoy reading
this.  Please don't flame me completely to cinders.

Regards,

Robert Hohlt, Jr.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 09:41:29 CDT
From:    Robert Hohlt <[email-masked]>
Subject: Veterans on this WWII list.

Ben Frank wrote on 28 Aug 1994:

>I am amazed at some of the questions which appear on the WWII list
>from individuals, well meaning, who haven't the faintest concept of
>what went on in WWII, the battles which were fought, and the
>sacrifices which were made.

Speaking for myself I ask questions on the list to try and understand
as fully as I can, the concepts and sacrifices which were made, knowing
that I can never fully understand,  I wasn't born yet.  I wasn't there.

And that makes this list, where I can read the opinions and feelings and
frustrations and life experiences of vets like John Ausland and Ben
Frank so wonderful.  Your experiences are truly priceless.

That is a hint for any other vets out there lurking on this list
to please please speak up!!!!

Regards,

Robert Hohlt, Jr.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 14:08:15 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN: MAINLY ABOUT THE ENOLA GAY EXHIBIT

  August 29, 1994

  Lots of interesting stuff on yesterday's digest.

  Jack McKillop asked me a couple of questions:  First, I do not know about the
Liberator incident but will be on the lookout for coverage of it in the press
here.

  The Enola Gay question requires a more complex reply, since nuclear weapons
have come into my life in two ways: first the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki
and, second, with my work on nuclear weapons in the State Department and
Pentagon.

  On the first, my feelings are quite clear, since the 4th was scheduled for the
second phase of the invasion of Japan.  Having survived the fighting in Europe,
there was a question in my mind how long my luck would hold out.  Furthermore,
my recent research on the matter in connection with my book makes it quite clear
that the bombs saved lives on both sides in the long run.

  I have followed the discussion of the Smithsonian exhibit on this list and in
the press, and it is clear something is wrong.  Furthermore, I have come into
contact with PC through my children.  My daughter has a number of photos in the
exhibit on New Mexico in the Historical Museum.  While this exhibit is well
worth seeing, it is clear to me that those who organized it looked upon it as a
sermon.

  My son is a professor at a university, and his stories about PC on campus are
both laughable and sad.  My favorite funny one is the refusal of some to have
Shakespeare on a reading list until he suggested OTHELLO.  The efforts of some
to use PC to advance their own careers are less amusing.

  As to nuclear weapons after the war, having worked both with the planning
regarding their use and on our SALT delegation, there is no doubt for me that
the military approach to nuclear weapons, to put it mildly, at times approached
insanity.  (This is a long story, which I do not want to go into here.)

  Having said this, it seems to me important to keep the two aspects separate,
the decision to use them during the war and the policies regarding nuclear
weapons after the war.  As far as I can see, the people at the Smithsonian are
making the mistake of trying to deal with both of them in the same exhibit.

  I might add that I expected  the 50th anniversary of Hiroshima to
precipitate another debate on the bomb.  I did not foresee that the Enola
Gay exhibit would be the trigger.  Nevertheless, I am glad to see the debate,
since it provides another opportunity to remind young people what happened
during WWII.

  On the other hand, an inadequate basis for understanding Hiroshima is not
being laid.  Since the ceremony at Pearl Harbor in 1991, anniversary after
anniversary in the Pacific has passed by, largely unnoticed.

  This is also true on this list.  Lots of discussion of Overlord and now
the liberation of Paris.  The Pentagon is now planning for the anniversary
of the Battle of the Bulge.

  The way things are going, Hiroshima will come over the horizon as a surprise.

  I would hope that at least that there will be commemoration of the recapture
of the Philippines and the terrible fighting on Okinawa, to set the stage
for Hiroshima.

  Does that answer your question, Jack?

  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 14:17:07 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Subject: TRIVIA: SMALL AIRCRAFT OVER PARIS ON AUGUST 26, 1944

  August 29, 1994
  In the archival films in IS PARIS BURNING?, there are shots of a small plane
flying over the crowd on the Champs and the Place de la Concorde.  I recall
seeing this plane at the time.  It did some acrobatics, and the crowd cheered.
  I have been wondering who was in the plane and what unit it was from.  Does
anyone by any chance know?
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 11:12:54 EDT
From:    Patrick D Marsden <[email-masked]>
Subject: TAC/TRV: ABEMAMA

        While flipping through my old copy of ISLAND FIGHTING (WWII Time
Life Books Series, 1978) that got when I was about ten, I stumbled onto
this little entry.  Among other things, it does say a lot for proper handgun
safety.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
ABEMAMA: AN ODDBALL INVASION

        "When American troops invaded Makin and Tarawa, a third
Japanese-held atoll in the Gilberts chain, Abemama, was also targeted.
Little more than a speck in the ocean, Abemama was not expected to
provide serious resistance.  The landing force numbered only 78 Marines,
and their offshore support consisted of only one vessel, the submarine
NAUTILUS, which had also served as their transport.

        They very nearly did not make it to Abemama.  The night before
D-Day, November 19, 1943, the U.S. destroyer RINGGOLD, en route to
Tarawa, spotted the Nautilus, mistook her for a 'skunk' (Navy parlance
for an 'unidentified surface radar contact'), scored a direct hit on her
with a 5-inch shell and went on, sure she had sunk.  In fact, the shell
had not exploded, and the Nautilus was able to take a quick dive.

        Once ashore on Abemama the Americans were welcomed by two
islanders who said there were only about 25 Japanese on the atoll, dug
in around the radio station.  The Marines called in fire from the Nautilus
and then attacked; but when the Japanese fought back fiercely, the Marines
decided to wait them out.  Four days later one of the Abemamans returned
to tell the Americans that, 'the Saps are all dead' (Gilbert islanders
pronounce 'j' as 's').  The Japanese captain in charge, rallying his 15
survivors for a new onslaught, had shot off the top of his own head while
waving his pistol around; his men, deciding there was no more they could do,
had killed themselves."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Patrick Marsden
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 10:28:12 -0500
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN: Modeling Company

The following message was posted to another list I keep up with.  Since
the subject matter might be of interest to people in this list, ans
since someone here might know about it, I thought I would pass it on.
If anyone has an answer, let me know.  If the answer appears on the
other list, I'll post it here, if there is any interest.

A patron is hoping to determine the whereabouts of a company that some
years ago manufactured a series of HO-scale (1/87) plastic model army
tanks.  All we've been able to find so far is what we've translated
off the packaging labels of one of the models (an excellently detailed
Soviet BT-7 tank).  It appears to be some sort of government ministry
 in the former Belorussian SSR that used the initials "MLP", a factory
called "Mir", and was located at one time at 24a Opansky (or Opanskovo?
Street in Minsk.  Since our collection is limited to domestic business
directories, and I can't find a listing via Dun's International Online
I'm posting this in hopes that someone out there is familiar with this
business.  Thanks (spassiba!) for any help.

Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 11:41:21 -0400
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: ADMIN: Re: Importance of due credit.

OK guys,

        Let's keep the political claptrap out of this forum.  Thank you.
--
Joe Barone, WWII-L listowner
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 09:56:32 -0500
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [INF] USAAF 28 AUG 44

I always heard the P-47 was more durable in ground attacks than the P-51
due to the radial engine.  I think statistics like that for Aug. 28 from
the Army Air Force Chronology really points that out.  Note that on
similar attacks on that date, 3 P-47's were lost (I assume to ground fire)
while 16 (!) P-51's are lost.  I guess a P-47 really could come back with
one or more cylinders shot off.
Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 10:54:44 -0500
From:    Drew Halevy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [WEAP] German "H-Class" battleships

i have a question that strays a little from the origional thread (i hope
you do not think it is too stupid) when we talk in terms of tonnage for
these (or ship) battleship, is that simply deadweight? or does that
include all the fuel (be it oil or coal) food, ammunition, supplies and
manpower? thanks-drew

Drew Halevy
Department of History
University of Arkansas
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 09:05:51 -0700
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 30-AUG-1944

On 30-AUG-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Northern France - The 7th Armoured Division (US XX Corps, 3rd Army) is
approaching Verdun. Further south, the XII Corps reaches the area of St
Didier. The British XXX Corps takes Beauvais.

Southern France - The US 36th Division (VI Corps) and the French II Corps are
advancing towards Lyons.

Eastern Front - The 2nd Ukraine Front occupies Ploesti, a vital Rumanian oil
center. This further increases the shortages imposed on the Germans by the
American and British air offensive.

Italian Front - The British 8th Army attacks the Gothic line. The Canadian I
and British V Corps reach the river Foglia. The Polish Corps is fighting on
the coast at Pesaro.

Naval Dispatches
----------------
Submarine NARWHAL (SS-167) lands men and supplies on the east coast of Luzon,
P.I.

Foreign Affairs
---------------
France - The Provisional Government of General de Gaulle is established in
Paris and begins work.

The Homefront
-------------
Navy Builds 65,000 Ships - The Navy says 65,000 ships of all types have been
built since Sept. 1, 1939. Nearly 36% of the total 9,000,000 tonnage has been
combat ships. Lend-lease transfers to the Allies have included 1,784 combat
ships.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 11:22:12 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: MAINLY ABOUT THE ENOLA GAY EXHIBIT

John Ausland, as usual, writes an eloquent piece.  I've also been very
interested reading the comments on the Enola Gay flap from people who have
some unique ties to it or at least opinions about it.

A small -- yet unique -- opportunity is available to us (the net/mailing
list) between now and August 6, 1995.  I would like to pool the resources
of the list-minds and see where we go.

On August 4, 5 and 6, 1995, the Southern Minnesota Wing Confederate Air Force
will be holding it's 18th Annual Air Power Display.  This is an aircraft
display that baffles some... Held the weekend after Oshkosh and only a few
hours away from same, it has survived nearly two decades as a successful
fund raiser for the SMW/CAF.  No acrobatics, no flight demonstration, no
jet teams... Just up to three dozen aircraft, mostly WWII, parked on the
ramp allowing people to walk around them (or through them) and learn about
their history on _their_ terms.  No preaching, no sermons, no strong over-
bearing messages... just remembrance, understanding and education.

In any case, the unique situation is that Sunday, August 6, 1995 is the
last day of our display.  It is also the 50th anniversary of the bombing
of Hiroshima.  Although as John said, it will probably sneak up on us (us
in this case being the general public), we _will_ have Fifi, the only (at
present time :-) flying B-29 in the world on display and in flight.  There
is some attempt to attract Paul Tibbets back to our show (he has been an
occasional guest, but we suspect he will be _very_ busy at that time, and
not expecting it to happen... But we're trying).

We are also attempting to see whether any of the other surviving crew
members from Enola Gay and Bockscar are available.

In any case, the opportunity is that on the anniversary of Hiroshima, we
will have an established display featuring the B-29 and hopefully some of
the individuals associated with the end of WWII.  As with the show's general
theme, we intend to present the history by itself and let people draw their
own conclusions from the facts.  We do not wish to tell anyone what those
facts mean.  We have never assumed our visitors were anything less than
intelligent people who only watch sitcoms because they need to turn _off_
their brains for a bit... :-)

Realizing that this is an "unorganized" show with a maximum of the occasional
tower controlled fly by (no acro) and that there is a LOT of ground space for
aircraft and artifact display, how would you organize the display to provide
a maximum amount of historical fact while at the same time recognizing that
people will be reviewing this at their own liesure.

What would you like to see in a three-day exhibit that centers around the
history of atomic bomb and -- perhaps more importantly -- the end of WWII?
What in your mind has the Smithsonian forgotten or shrugged away that could
be picked up by a small group in Minnesota?  Who would you suggest trying to
contact to appear as a speaker?  Is there any particular artifact, person,
plane, vehicle, etc. that has an important story to tell?

Our displays attract around 15,000 people during the weekend.  We always get
good press coverage, so the basic story at least gets out to the 2 million +
large community.  A good display properly set up would get much wider
media attention (and certainly benefit our fund raising efforts).  We hope
that a good quality, well thought out and designed display might attract
25,000 next year.

Also keep in mind that by nature, these displays are all low-budget.  There
is no budget for construction, etc.  (Please note: We also wish to address
Europe, VE day, etc... We don't like to focus on just one issue... They all
tie together and all rely on each other... We try to present that as well.)

What would _you_ do, given these opportunities?

[John's comments kept for reference and because they are worth repeating :-)]

[And yes, there is already a concern over protestors, nuclear protaganists,
etc.  We refuse to succumb to the PCness attempted to be forced upon the
world -- One positive sign, however... We used to get a substantial number
of complaints about the nose art on the visiting aircraft as being
"demeaning to women and encouraging violence."  Those complaints grew to an
all time high in 1989 and has decreased substantially to _zero_ this year.]

[BTW: a high-ranking woman in one of the local Mayor's office's indicated
that she would be very proud to pose -- in any or no clothing capacity --
if her image were to be painted on an aircraft going into combat.  We do
admit being surprised by said statement, being radically different from what
you normally hear... The person lodging a complaint about the nose art on an
aircraft at the time left in a huff... :-)  And no, she wasn't asked to pose
anyways... :-)]

>   The Enola Gay question requires a more complex reply, since nuclear weapons
> have come into my life in two ways: first the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki
> and, second, with my work on nuclear weapons in the State Department and
> Pentagon.
>
>   On the first, my feelings are quite clear, since the 4th was scheduled for the
> second phase of the invasion of Japan.  Having survived the fighting in Europe,
> there was a question in my mind how long my luck would hold out.  Furthermore,
> my recent research on the matter in connection with my book makes it quite clear
> that the bombs saved lives on both sides in the long run.
>
>   I have followed the discussion of the Smithsonian exhibit on this list and in
> the press, and it is clear something is wrong.  Furthermore, I have come into
> contact with PC through my children.  My daughter has a number of photos in the
> exhibit on New Mexico in the Historical Museum.  While this exhibit is well
> worth seeing, it is clear to me that those who organized it looked upon it as a
> sermon.
>
>   My son is a professor at a university, and his stories about PC on campus are
> both laughable and sad.  My favorite funny one is the refusal of some to have
> Shakespeare on a reading list until he suggested OTHELLO.  The efforts of some
> to use PC to advance their own careers are less amusing.
>
>   As to nuclear weapons after the war, having worked both with the planning
> regarding their use and on our SALT delegation, there is no doubt for me that
> the military approach to nuclear weapons, to put it mildly, at times approached
> insanity.  (This is a long story, which I do not want to go into here.)
>
>   Having said this, it seems to me important to keep the two aspects separate,
> the decision to use them during the war and the policies regarding nuclear
> weapons after the war.  As far as I can see, the people at the Smithsonian are
> making the mistake of trying to deal with both of them in the same exhibit.
>
>   I might add that I expected  the 50th anniversary of Hiroshima to
> precipitate another debate on the bomb.  I did not foresee that the Enola
> Gay exhibit would be the trigger.  Nevertheless, I am glad to see the debate,
> since it provides another opportunity to remind young people what happened
> during WWII.
>
>   On the other hand, an inadequate basis for understanding Hiroshima is not
> being laid.  Since the ceremony at Pearl Harbor in 1991, anniversary after
> anniversary in the Pacific has passed by, largely unnoticed.
>
>   This is also true on this list.  Lots of discussion of Overlord and now
> the liberation of Paris.  The Pentagon is now planning for the anniversary
> of the Battle of the Bulge.
>
>   The way things are going, Hiroshima will come over the horizon as a surprise.
>
>   I would hope that at least that there will be commemoration of the recapture
> of the Philippines and the terrible fighting on Okinawa, to set the stage
> for Hiroshima.
>
>   Does that answer your question, Jack?
>
>   Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway
>

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
[email-masked]                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 11:31:50 EST
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [WEAP] German "H-Class" battleships

Drew,
        I am sure someone with the requisite volumes at hand will have
a more complete answer, but here's a short one from memory.  Standard
displacement as a concept came out of the Washington Naval Conference.
The standard was designed so that all the powers could agree on what
to count and what not to count when figuring total tonnage.  I recall that
includes the weight of the ship, fittings, fuel, boiler water.  I don't
believe that it included food, ammo or crew but I wouldn't want to bet
money on any one of those.
        Hope that helps, at least until someone can give the more complete
answer.
*************************************************
(Roger) Brad Coon            "Lions are basically
[email-masked]          scavengers of
[email-masked]    hyaena kills."
                              Hans Kruuk

Kill a lion, save a hyaena!
Boycott Disney lionist propaganda!
*************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 14:28:29 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [INF] USAAF 28 AUG 44

Hello, Tim!

You heard right. The P-47 was a very heavy aircraft weighing 7 tons
empty. It could take a lot punishment and more than one pilot,
including Robert S. Johnson, the leading ace from Europe, owed his
life to that durability.

    Terry

> I always heard the P-47 was more durable in ground attacks than the P-51
> due to the radial engine.  I think statistics like that for Aug. 28 from
> the Army Air Force Chronology really points that out.  Note that on
> similar attacks on that date, 3 P-47's were lost (I assume to ground fire)
> while 16 (!) P-51's are lost.  I guess a P-47 really could come back with
> one or more cylinders shot off.
> Tim J. Watts
> Valparaiso University
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 14:23:53 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hiroshima

Hello, Dan!

Just a comment.

> and sang the 64th sentai song, having presumably seen that movie as a
> child. It was as if the Japanese drew a curtain in 1945 and never looked
> behind it again.

    Given the magnitude of the destruction, privation those civilians
had to endure during the war, air raids, fire-bombing, etc, it is
not difficult to understand how and why the Japanese, or average
ones at least, do exactly as you suggest. I find that the average
German as well, who didn't endure the horrors of that war, also tend
to have no comprehension of what happened, but I find it very
interesting that your colleague had no idea that a pilot could bale
out of an aircraft.

        Thank you for your very interesting post.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 14:41:39 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN:83rd CMB

Hello, Robert!

I can supply you with that info, if you still want it. Please advise.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 16:07:50 -0500
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: request for help

Sorry to bother you all but my fingers are having a really bad day at the
old keyboard-- I meant to save the post regarding that commando raid on
Singapore (there was one post giving all the details of the operation), but
I wound up deleting it instead without having a chance to read it.  Is there
anyone out there who could relay the message to me?? (you could just send
it direct to my e-mail address without burdening the list again)  I'd be
very appreciative if someone who caught that one could comply.  Thanks in
advance...

Mike Yaklich
Pitt

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 14:49:16 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Small European countries in WWII

Hello, Jim!

Will try to answer your questions.

> I have no idea what prompted this thought, but does anyone know what
> role, if any, the very small European countries such as Andorra, Monaco,
> Liechenstein (any others?) played in WWII?

    Very little. Of course, particularly Portugal
and Switzerland were openly used by all sides for espionage purposes.
Monaco and Liechtenstein were not overrun, and life went on there as
usual.

 Were they neutral, overrun
> or just ignored?

    Basically ignored.

Did Italy and Germany respect the neutrality of the
> Vatican City?

    Yes, although the Pope was pro-German in his sentiments. No
efforts were made to incorporate or attack the Vatican City.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 13:16:44 -0800
From:    Yarbrough James L <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [INF] USAAF 28 AUG 44

It also has a lot to do with the big radiator(I don't remember if it was oil or
water) on the P-51 being on the belly exposed to all that ground fire and
debris.

Jim

[email-masked]

New rules adopted by the agency require me to state that all my opinions are
mine, not that anybody else would want them, and not to hold the State of
Oregon or anybody else responsible.
_______________________________________________________________________________
>(stuff deleted)
>the Army Air Force Chronology really points that out.  Note that on
>similar attacks on that date, 3 P-47's were lost (I assume to ground fire)
>while 16 (!) P-51's are lost.  I guess a P-47 really could come back with
>one or more cylinders shot off.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 17:39:22 EST
From:    "CARL WERNKE (TCWERNC@VCCSCENT)" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: German"H-Class battleships

 To: Multiple recipients of list WWII-L([email-masked])
 In-Reply-To: Robert Hohlt, Jr. message, Mon, 29 Aug 1994 09:35:15 CDT

 My 27 Aug 1994 stated:
 |> German "H-Class battleships would have produced the largest warships in the
 |> world; even larger than today's Enterprise and Nimitz class nuclear-powered
 |> aircraft carriers.

 (Roger) Brad. Coon's message Mon, 29 Aug 1994,at 08:42:10 EST,outlines
 specific details:

 |> I think there is some confusion here between the H-Class battleship two of
 |> which were laid down, and the various H designes projects (H41-H44). The
 |> H-Class were of about 56,000 tons standard displacement, mounting 8-16"
 |> guns. The design projects ranged from about 64,000 tons to well over
 |> 100,000 tons (fifures vary with sources from 111,000 to 144,000) and
 |> mounting 8-19.7" guns.

 Thanks Roger for your timely reply !

 Carl Wernke
 [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 30 Aug 1994 08:16:37 +1000
From:    Derek Monz <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WWII B-24 Found In Australia

On Mon, 29 Aug 1994, mc killop wrote:

> The Associated Press (AP) is reporting that the wreckage of a WWII
> Consolidated B-24D Liberator has been found in rough terrain in central
> Queensland, Australia near the city of Rockhampton, approximately 310 miles
> (499 km) N of Brisbane.  The plane disappeared on a routine flight on 26 Feb
> 45 with 6 Americans and 2 Brits aboard.  The aircraft had slammed into a hill;
> the nose is badly damaged, the tail is broken off but the wings and engines
> are intact.  The wreckage was first spotted in Jul 94 but the news was
> withheld out of respect for the 8 dead men.
>
> Do our colleagues "Down Under" have any additional information?

        Jack, and others, It ha been reported fairly well "down Here" and
I'll post a synopsis of the apress articles tomorrow but apparently there
is a team of investigators from the US oiver here for the next couple of
weeks to study the wreckage and to try to identify it. The tail number
belongs to a plane named "bouncing Betsy" but that is aparently as far as
thigns have progressed.
.. more later..

[email-masked] Msc (Geology) 1994.
disclaimer: - I didn't do it!.

" In the beginning Boeing created the B-17 and they were pleased. It came to
pass that the United States Army Air Corps saw what Boeing had wrought and
they too were pleased, and they praised the big bird that Boeing had
brought forth. And it also came to pass that the Luftwaffe saw the B-17
and they were sorely afraid exclaiming loudly "oh woe is me, oh woe is
me"".
                            ((-------))
                                \o/
                                 |
                               _/ \_

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 30 Aug 1994 08:24:21 EST
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Attack Force Z

The movie about "Jaywick" that people are thinking of is probably called
'Heroes'. At least that is what it was called when it was shown on Oz TV as a
mini-series. It may have been retitled for US release (as happens with many
Australian productions, eg Mad Max).

For the trivia buff, the fishng boat used in the original raid, the Krait, was
used for the filming and is currently in the hands of a museum (and still
afloat).

David Murnain
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 17:57:46 -0500
From:    Drew Halevy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Small European countries in WWII

Drew Halevy
Department of History
University of Arkansas
[email-masked]

> Monaco and Liechtenstein were not overrun, and life went on there as
> usual.
>
Diden't Prince Ranier of Monaco enlist in the French Army as a private?
-drew

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 16:12:24 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: French Resistance(?)

Hi, Lou.
As you say, the British attack on the French naval fleet after the
surrender "did nothing to keep the French on the Allied side."
But then that wasn't the purpose, was it ? The general idea of
sinking the French fleet was to keep it out of the hands of the
Germans. Worked quite well, too. :-)

--

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 16:39:50 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ENOLA GAY Press Release

Steven Pulo...
Yes, Steve, there's at least one book I came across that faces the
reality of valid reasons for dropping the A-bombs:
        MIRACLE OF DELIVERANCE.
And, of course, I'll remember the author's name *after* I sign off.
        Regards -- Sidney.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 30 Aug 1994 10:30:59 +1000
From:    George PISZCZUK <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WWII B-24 Found In Australia

>The Associated Press (AP) is reporting that the wreckage of a WWII
>Consolidated B-24D Liberator has been found in rough terrain in central
>Queensland, Australia near the city of Rockhampton, approximately 310 miles
>(499 km) N of Brisbane.  The plane disappeared on a routine flight on 26 Feb
>45 with 6 Americans and 2 Brits aboard.  The aircraft had slammed into a hill;
>the nose is badly damaged, the tail is broken off but the wings and engines
>are intact.  The wreckage was first spotted in Jul 94 but the news was
>withheld out of respect for the 8 dead men.
>
>Do our colleagues "Down Under" have any additional information?
>
>
The following is a summary of details as provided by the "Australian",
August 30th.

The aircraft was called the Beautiful Betsy. The aircraft was flying from
Darwin to Brisbane and it was described as a "fat cat" mission.  The two RAF
officers were Spitfire pilots, one was to be married in Brisbane and the
other was to be the best man. The Amercians were describe as two senior
non-commisioned officers and four junior officers. It appeared to be a high
impact collision, wreckage was spread of a wide area and the initial
investigation disclosed no human remains.

An original picture was supplied.

George

  -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  George Piszczuk                          Email: [email-masked]
  University of Newcastle                  Phone: (049) 215440
  Australia                                Fax  : (049) 216907
  -------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 17:37:16 -0700
From:    Ed Kettler <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [INF] USAAF 28 AUG 44

An example of the P-47's ruggedness was described in Robert Johnson's
"Thunderbolt".  He was repeatedly attacked and managed to barely get
home.  When he landed, the plane had half of its cylinders either damaged
or shot away, but it kept on ticking!

Ed Kettler                                       [email-masked]

On Mon, 29 Aug 1994, Tim J. Watts wrote:

> I always heard the P-47 was more durable in ground attacks than the P-51
> due to the radial engine.  I think statistics like that for Aug. 28 from
> the Army Air Force Chronology really points that out.  Note that on
> similar attacks on that date, 3 P-47's were lost (I assume to ground fire)
> while 16 (!) P-51's are lost.  I guess a P-47 really could come back with
> one or more cylinders shot off.
> Tim J. Watts
> Valparaiso University
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 21:02:43 -0500
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: NORWAY's HEROES

> The CBS-TV show SUNDAY MORNING did their usual "class" act with this
> story.  The story was entitled NORWAYS HEROES and describes the mission of
> a 492d Bombardment Group (Heavy) B-24 Liberator based at Harrington,
> England on a CARPETBAGGER mission to Norway from Scotland.  Assuming that
> the aircraft went down in Aug or Sep 44, from the information I have,
> the 492d lost one B-24 on the night of 5/6 Sep 44 and another on the night
> of 16/17 Sep 44.  The 492d ceased full scale CARPETBAGGER operations after
> the 16/17 Sep mission and only one of the four squadrons continued flying
> limited missions until 25 Apr 45.
>
> Alan neglected to mention that this 63-year old man teaches 8-year old
> children about the mission, the crewmen, etc. so that they are also aware
> of what happened.  He has also tracked down the families of 8(?) crewmen
> and has communicated with them.  The sister of the flight engineer lives
> here in New Jersey and the reporter talked to her and other members of the
> family about the crash.
>
> The final thing the reporter said is that a momument to these 11 kids
> (17-23 years old) was to be dedicated on Saturday; since this was broadcast
> on August 28, I assume that it would be dedicated on September 3.
>
> I will follow up on Alan's reqest; John Ausland, have you heard anything?

My father was Norwegian Underground for the extent of the war.  I still have
the certificate of appreciation he received from the King.

My only regret is that I never got his stories recorded before he passed
away.  He told me about transporting radios, being arrested and spending time
in solitary confinement (and being deathly afraid that the light over his
cell would be switched from white to red...)

I've recently begun trying to research his history.  I've found some very
basic documents which provided names of people in his unit, a couple of
which I've tracked down.  I've encountered an underground (Home Guard)
historian and author, learned about the "blood road," etc.

While what I have available to me is incredibly basic, what I seem to have
found is that the memory of veterans in Norway (and Scandinavia as a rule)
is held very highly.  There are many monuments and plaques.  There also seems
to be an overall concerted effort to remember the history of WWII.  I've been
there four times, but never had the chance to visit any of these places.  I've
missed most of the museums, but looking forward to correcting that sometime in
the near future.

If the perception I've got that the memories of WWII are preserved as well
as they are, then I feel better about knowing far too little of my father's
personal history... I know that the memory of the Home Guard won't be lost.

Would love to hear John's perception as a now permanent resident of my
non-birth homeland...

--
Robert J. Granvin
Southern Minnesota Wing Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 22:17:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 30 AUG 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
WEDNESDAY, 30 AUGUST 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): Several P-47s bomb and strafe the town of
Man Sai, Burma. The 3d Combat Cargo Squadron, 1st Combat Cargo Group, arrives
at Sylhet, India from the US with C-47s.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, B-25s  attack Hengyang, Pailochi,
and Hankow Airfields, roads in the Nanyo and Changsha areas, and boats
between Changsha and Hengyang, and Kichun and Wuhsueh; in the Kweiyi and
Sintsiang areas 33 P-40s claim 58 trucks destroyed, 175 damaged, and at least
100 Japanese killed; 10 P-51s hit scattered targets of opportunity in the
same areas; 21 P-40s hit barracks, trucks, and a bridge in the Siangsiang and
Siangtan region; and 34 P-40s and P-51s attack a variety of targets,
including railroad traffic and facilities, occupied areas, and trucks, at
Yangtien, between Hengshan and Nanyo, NE of Ichang, SW Hengshan, and near
Hengyang.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Three missions are flown.
  Mission 590: 107 of 159 B-17s and 108 of 145 B-24s dispatched hit 8
V-weapon sites in the Pas de Calais area of France; one wing uses GH and H2X
methods; 22 bombers are damaged. Escort is provided by 16 of 16 P-51s without
loss.
  Mission 591: Later in the day, 637 B-17s are dispatched to bomb the U-boat
base and shipyards at Kiel (282), and aircraft plant and other industry in
the Bremen area (327); 4 others hit targets of opportunity; 1 B-17 is damaged
beyond repair and 136 damaged. Escort is provided by 258 of 294 P-51s without
loss.
  Mission 592: 6 of 6 B-17s drop leaflets in France and Belgium during the
night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, about 75 A-20s and B-26s
bomb a fuel dump near Arques-la-Bataille, Rouxmesnil-Bouteilles, and gun
positions around Ile de Cezembre; weather grounds the fighters; HQ 84th
Fighter Wing moves from Criqueville to Aillieres; HQ 100th Fighter Wing moves
from Rennes to Le Mans; the 14th Liaison Squadron, XIX Tactical Air Command
(attached to Third Army), moves from Courcy to St Maurice-aux-Riches-Hommes
with L-5s; the 33d Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, 67th Tactical
Reconnaissance Group, moves from Le Molay to Toussus le Noble with F-5s; the
313th Fighter Squadron, 50th Fighter Group, moves from Meautis to Orly with
P-47s; and the 596th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), moves from Hurn, England
to Gorges with B-26s. The 82d Troop Carrier Squadron, 436th Troop Carrier
Group, that has been operating from Voltone Airfield, Italy, returns to base
at Membury, England with C-47s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 100+ B-24s and B-17s hit
targets in Yugoslavia; the B-17s bomb railroad bridges at Novi Sad and
Vranjeco; the B-24s attack bridges at Cuprija. Nearly 100 P-51s strafe
airfields at Kecskemet, Hungary and Oradea, Rumania.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): Weather grounds the medium
bombers; A-20s hit targets of opportunity during the night of 29/30 Aug and
fuel storage while fighter-bombers pound roads and railroads in the Po
Valley in Italy and, on armed reconnaissance over the Rhone Valley in France,
attack rail lines and motor and horsedrawn vehicles, as US Seventh Army
elements continue up the Rhone Valley toward Lyon. HQ 27th Fighter Group and
522d, 523d and 524th Fighter Squadrons move from Le Luc to Salon, France with
P-47s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): A B-24 on armed reconnaissance from Saipan
Island bombs Yap Island. P-47s strafe positions and storage areas on Pagan
Island. Kwajalein Atoll-based B-24s hit Mille Atoll.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: Koror and Malakal
Islands are pounded by B-24s. B-24s hit Wasile Bay storage and personnel
areas in the Moluccas Islands while B-25s make a low-level attack on Kaoe
town on Halmahera Island. P-38s bomb oil tanks, barracks, and AA positions
at Boela, Ceram Island. In New Guinea, P-47s hit Urarom runway and Manokwari
storage area, P-38s bomb airfields at Babo and Ransiki, and P-39s hit targets
of opportunity along the W coast of Geelvink Bay; HQ 58th Fighter Group moves
from Saidor to Noemfoor Island; and HQ 403d Troop Carrier Group moves from
Espiritu Santo Island to Los Negros Island.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

30/0219Z AUG

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 22:36:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: P-47 vs P-51

RE: The discussion of P-47 vs. P-51 losses.

Yes, the P-47 could take a lot of punishment and keep flying.  But as the
numbers below indicate, as of 1 Sep 44, 10 of the 15 Eighth Air Force
Fighter Groups were flying P-51s so 2/3rds of the losses should have been
Mustangs.  The Mustang also had a greater range which means they got to hit
all the nasty, well-defended airfields in Germany.  I'm not knocking the
Jug, it was one hulluva airplane but I also want to give the Mustang its
due.

P-38 GROUPS
-----------
479th Fighter Group at Wattisham

P-47 GROUPS
-----------
 56th Fighter Group at Boxted
 78th Fighter Group at Duxford
353d  Fighter Group at Raydon
356th Fighter Group at Martlesham Heath

P-51 GROUPS
-----------
  4th Fighter Group at Debden
 20th Fighter Group at Kings Cliffe
 55th Fighter Group at Wormingford
339th Fighter Group at Fowlmere
352d  Fighter Group at Bodney
355th Fighter Group at Steeple Morden
357th Fighter Group at Leiston
359th Fighter Group at East Wretham
361st Fighter Group at Bottisham
364th Fighter Group at Honington

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 21:50:23 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: A Joint U.S.-Japanese school film on Pearl Harbor and Hiroshima?

Maybe we should negotiate a mandatory film to be shown to every
  9th Grade Japanese and American student.

President Clinton and the *current* Japanese prime minister
  might be game, although we'd have to watch our PC U.S. Dept.
  of Education closely.

The World War II Studies Association should be involved as
  well.

Does anyone like this idea?  Anyone willing to carry the ball
  on it?

It would give Bill Clinton a chance to win a little gratitude/
  respect from the World War II generation.

Lou Coatney, Historian at Large

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 21:59:15 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: The War in the Pacific:  AN AMERICAN PERSPECTIVE ?????

Here they -- the Smithsonian -- go again!  It wasn't just
  *our* perspective.  The Chinese, Filipinos, and just a few
  other folks were victimized/galvanized by/against the
  Japanese militarists.

You've got to give it to them.  The PCers are subtle.  Like
  anti-defense agitators calling themselves "peace activists"!
  The power of words/terms!

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Aug 1994 22:10:54 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: MODELS:  Belarus model tanks (1:87)

Tim,

     I've got a couple:  T-26s and BT-7s.  I sent a letter
to their address and received back nothing, typically.

     You can try the Belarus Embassy(?) or some of the
Eastern European model brokers in magazines like FINESCALE
MODELER.

     Let us/me know if you have any success.  The 1:43
metal models of 76mm & 100 mm AT guns, T34/85, and a
couple modern APCs are fairly good, too.

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 28 Aug 1994 to 29 Aug 1994
*************************************************