Subject: WWII-L Digest - 22 Sep 1994 to 23 Sep 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 24 Sep 1994 00:01:16 -0400

There are 48 messages totalling 1455 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Scanned Images?
  2. War Plan Yellow
  3. TRIV: Weapons in movie _The Cross of Iron_ (9)
  4. INF: 50 Years Ago - 24-SEP-1944
  5. MEDIA: Radio Memory (3)
  6. VET: Locating Veterans
  7. PELELIU (5)
  8. INF: USN Chronology 09-23-94
  9. aricraft arms (8)
 10. SS Jeremiah O'Brien (4)
 11. Aftermath of Market Garden??? (3)
 12. INF: Czech TOE
 13. 82d Airborne Div
 14. WEAP: Gustav Geraet
 15. The B-17 as a hot rod
 16. Smithsonian/American Legion Press Release (2)
 17. Call for Proposals
 18. VET:Locating Vets
 19. Enola Gay News Conference
 20. aircraft arms (Was...)
 21. TRV: Admiral Yamamoto's Father?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 23:51:10 -0500
From:    Oliver Bonham-Carter <[email-masked]>
Subject: Scanned Images?

Does any know of a FTP site where I could download some scanned pictures
of the war and battles?

Thank you, Merci, Donka (spelled right, anyone?)

[email-masked]
 "This is it... so read it!"

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 03:40:00 UTC
From:    "Edward S. Miller" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: War Plan Yellow

   >  Please do post more details on both War Plan Orange and War Plan
   > Yellow, especially on Orange !  - Carl Wernke

Sorry, Carl, Orange is too big a story to encapsulate here.  Plug: have your
school library get my book =War Plan Orange: The U.S. Strategy to Defeat
Japan, 1897-1945= (Annapolis: Naval Institute Press, 1991), 509pp, maps,
photos.  Call 800-233-8764.  Lists for #34.95.
  What additional do you want posted on Plan Yellow?
 Eward S. Miller   [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 02:39:28 -0600
From:    Chip Merton <[email-masked]>
Subject: TRIV: Weapons in movie _The Cross of Iron_

I have just finished watching _The Cross of Iron_ by Sam Peckinpaw and have
a question that someone may be able to answer.  In the movie, Lee Marvin'sxD
character, and many other Germans used Soviet weapons esp. the PPsh-41.
Was this common? And for what reason?  Was it the increased ammo capacity?
I was of the mind that the 71 round drum had a tendency to jam.  Any truth
to this?

Thanks in advance--Chip Merton  "[email-masked]"

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 05:05:08 -0700
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 24-SEP-1944

On 24-SEP-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - XXX Corps advance reaches the south bank of the Rhine west of
Arnhem. North of the bank the British 1st Airborne are still holding out
despite heavy casualties. The Canadian 2nd Division (I Corps) establishes a
bridgehead over the Antwerp-Turnhout canal.

Eastern Front - The 2nd Ukraine Front succeeds in repelling the 27 German and
Hungarian division and brigades holding them up in the Cluj area, in northern
Rumania. Rumania is now almost completely in Russian hands.

Peleliu - After an air and ship bombardment, the 321st Infantry advances
beyond Garekoru. Attempts by Infantry and Marines to advance on Mount
Umurbrogol from the read is frustrated by a powerful Japanese counter-attack.

Angaur - The Americans invite the Japanese still holding out in the Lake
Salome area to surrender, but only two men come forward. The artillery then
begins a heavy bombardment which lasts throughout the day.

Burma - The British 36th Division, advancing cautiously southwards in the area
of Namma, runs into a heavy Japanese force and is stopped.

The Homefront
-------------
Pro Football Scores - Green Bay 42, Chicago Bears 28; Cleveland 30,
Chicago-Pittsburgh 28.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "Facts On File Yearbook 1944,
Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 08:21:27 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA: Radio Memory

     My local CBS radio affiliate carries a program named "When Radio Was",
     (Midnight, M-F Eastern) that rebroadcasts radio programs from the '30s
     through the '50s.

     This morning's broadcast included a Kate Smith show from June 7, 1944.
     The pride and patriotism carried in her voice as she encouraged her
     listeners to buy war bonds, and donate blood was touching to hear.
     The beauty of radio, you can close your eyes and be there.

     Her announcer then came on, reporting on the limited news available
     from the Normandy front.  What caught my attention was the point where
     he read the "Terse" release from Eisenhower's headquarters, and then
     explained to the audience that as much as they all would like to know
     more, they couldn't expect the Army to be broadcasting information
     that would be valuable to the Germans.

     Somehow I just can't picture Sam Donaldson or Dan Rather addressing
     government news releases from ODS, Somalia or Haiti with quite the
     same aplomb.  Times have surely changed.

        Steve L. New                     .............................
        Weapon System Manager            .............................
        Battalion Countermine Set        ............ /\ .............
        U.S. Army TACOM AMSTA-FR1D       ............/  \.............
        DSN: 786-5403  FAX: 786-7788     ............    .............
        EMAIL  [email-masked]   ............    .............

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 07:32:20 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRIV: Weapons in movie _The Cross of Iron_

Hello, Chip!

To answer your questions.

> Was this common?

    Yes, it was common for all combattants to employ the opponents'
equipment, if it was available. The reasons for this are that the
equipment was available when one's own supply was limited. I might
add, enemy equipment was used even if it was inferior, and, again,
its use was determined by need and availability at the time.

 And for what reason?

    The PP-SH certainly had a faster cyclic rate than the German
Karbiner 98.

 Was it the
increased ammo capacity?

    Yes, and see above.

> I was of the mind that the 71 round drum had a tendency to jam.  Any truth
> to this?

    I can't speak to this, but maybe someone else can.

    Hope this has been of help.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 08:39:10 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRIV: Weapons in movie _The Cross of Iron_

>
> I have just finished watching _The Cross of Iron_ by Sam Peckinpaw and have
> a question that someone may be able to answer.  In the movie, Lee Marvin'sxD
> character, and many other Germans used Soviet weapons esp. the PPsh-41.
> Was this common? And for what reason?  Was it the increased ammo capacity?
> I was of the mind that the 71 round drum had a tendency to jam.  Any truth
> to this?

1) It was James Coburn, not Lee Marvin.

2) Use of Soviet weapons was quite common.  The Soviet weapons even received
Waffenamt type designations (with an "(S)" suffix, I believe, for "Sowjet").

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 07:55:12 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: VET: Locating Veterans

Hello, Ron!

Thanks for the post.

> In the Late Gen. Jimmy Doolittle's autobiography, Gen. Doolittle explained
> that he was very reluctant to except his CMOH.  It wasn't until the
> survivors of the Tokyo Raid threatened to hog-tie him and force him to
> accept it that he accepted the medal for himself (and his unit).
> Intrestingly Gen. Doolittle personally felt that the CMOH should only
> awarded to those who saved anothers life.

    This may have been General Doolittle's opinion, but his is not
shared by the one's I have corresponded with. As mentioned above in
an earlier post, the vast majority of the MoH recipients I have had
the privelege to correspond with are most proud of their decorations
and none have ever stated to me that they were reluctant to receive
it. Even the very modest gentleman who received the MoH on Okinawa
who rescued 40+ wounded men while under enemy fire. I might add that
this gentleman was a member of the medical corps and carried no
weapons. I cite him merely as an example of a person who accepted
this decoration and is so very proud to wear it.

    Thanks again, Ron.

    Terry

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ron Babuka
> Cornell University
> CIT - Information Resources
> Ithaca, New York 14850
> (607) 254-6492
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 09:01:46 EDT
From:    Kurt Luginbyhl <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA: Radio Memory

Hi Steve,  The radio programs during the war years "WWII" were very positive
entertaining and full of emotional appeal.  This country of course had been
'shocked' into war and most people as I have been told felt very strongly about
the mission of "all good Americans"  defeat the Js and the Gs.    The only way
to do this was to save, cut back, recycle, plant and work!

Certainly the germans listened and analyzed radio transmissions to determine
information important to tactics (theater).

Technology has changed so dramatically that virtually anything a reporter could
tell an enemy the enemy already knows.  I was first aggravated by the media
landing in Somalia.  What a circus!  But then I later realized that anybody
who wanted to know knew where the landings were going to be.  Desert Storm
and Grenadawere different types of operations and carried certain restrictions
for the media blood suckers.
I am sure that Bilhary wanted the Haitian folks especially the Militarytypes
to understand the potential violence of the force being sent to back up the
verbal posturing of the past weeks by the White House and State.

The camera crews and reporters are a pain to the soldiersbut the MILITARY
sure could use some good ink and video.

Cheers!

H. A. Kurt Luginbyhl
Scientific Computer Specialist______202-357-1955 Office
National Museum of Natural History__202-357-1955_Fax
Washington D.C. 20560________"Rast Ich, So Rost Ich"

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 08:35:45 EST
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: PELELIU

I know this has been posted before, but can someone post again the address
and person to contact at the Smithsonian about the Enola Gay exhibit?
Thanks,
Brad Coon

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 07:35:04 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 09-23-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
09/23 Sat. Naval task group (Rear Adm. W. H. P. Blandy) lands
           Army troops at Ulithi Atoll, Caroline Islands.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 10:25:04 -0500
From:    Drew Halevy <[email-masked]>
Subject: aricraft arms

A query-what was the largest armaments carried by Allied aircraft during
WWII? The biggest I can think of is seeing a photo of a B25(?) with a
75mm in the nose. As a sub-question, what is the largest cannon carried
in a fighter plane (such as a P-XX) thanks-Drew

Drew Halevy
Department of History
University of Arkansas
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 09:01:09 -0700
From:    Jim Curry <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRIV: Weapons in movie _The Cross of Iron_

Hello, Chip!
I've only seen this movie once on cable tv,several years ago.  One thing
that struck me was that the Russian soldiers were shown wearing Italian
helmets!  The prop and costume people must have been a little careless.
Perhaps they were also sloppy about the weaponry each side carried.
Jim Curry

On Fri, 23 Sep 1994, Chip Merton wrote:

> I have just finished watching _The Cross of Iron_ by Sam Peckinpaw and have
> a question that someone may be able to answer.  In the movie, Lee Marvin'sxD
> character, and many other Germans used Soviet weapons esp. the PPsh-41.
> Was this common? And for what reason?  Was it the increased ammo capacity?
> I was of the mind that the 71 round drum had a tendency to jam.  Any truth
> to this?
>
> Thanks in advance--Chip Merton  "[email-masked]"
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 12:17:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: SS Jeremiah O'Brien

The SS Jeremiah O'Brien, the last sailing example of the 2,571
Liberty ships, sailed into San Francisco harbor today (23 Sep 94)
after completing a 5-month, 20,000 mile (32,186 km) trip to Normandy
and back to celebrate the 50th anniversary of D-Day.

>From what I have read, the city went crazy.  O'Brien was greeted by
dozens of boats, fireboats spewing plumes of water, helicopters and
WWII aircraft.  The citizens had attached a large WELCOME HOME sign
to the Golden Gate Bridge and a parade at noon in the Financial
District.

The O'Brien was escorted into San Francisco Bay by the SS Lane
Victory, a WWII cargo ship from Southern California and the
Potomac, President Franklin D Roosevelt's former yacht which is
based in Oakland, California.

The O'Brien has been a tourist attraction at Fisherman's Wharf for
the past several years.  Does anyone know if she will "return" to
that duty?

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 12:30:58 -0500
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRIV: Weapons in movie _The Cross of Iron_

Part of the reason the PPSh was so popular with the Germas was that 71-shot
drum...I've also seen a book, might have been Ian Hogg's Encyclopedia of
WW2 small arms, that thinks its simply because "the grass is always greener"
for the other side...the MP40 would seem to have it all over the PPSh-1941
in every respect except ammo capacity (reliability, effective range, more
powerful cartridge...).  Just my two cents...

Mike Yaklich

PS  The PPSh did have a jamming problem, as far as I recall.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 12:18:08 CDT
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRIV: Weapons in movie _The Cross of Iron_

The Germans did indeed use captured PPsh's in both an approved and
unapproved manner--weapons were picked up by troops and used and also
the Germans captured a number of the weapons and even gave them a German
designation--something like MP(r)-41--something like that--the r is for
russian--like the Panzer 38 (t) for czech.  I have not heard of problems
with them jamming with the drum--everyone I know who owns one likes it.
TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 10:23:55 -0700
From:    Jim Curry <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Aftermath of Market Garden???

Hello Sidney!
I would certainly agree that US forces had a rough time in December 1944
in the Ardennes.  The initial German offensive destroyed two US divisions
(the 28th and 106th) and resulted in some desperate last stands by American
GIs. But the battle ended in a complete Allied victory,and the destruction
of the German strategic reserve in the West.
Market Garden could have been called an Allied victory only if it had
achieved its objective--a bridgehead over the Rhine. The sacrifice of
1st Airborne Division would have been  justified if the Rhine had been
crossed.  Failure at Arnhem meant defeat for Market Garden.
One of MOntgomery's many unappealing traits was an inabilaty ever to
admit failure (or making any kind of mistake, for that matter). He
always claimed Market Garden as a victory on the grounds that his forces
had advanced, taken, and held territory.  But the facts are clear.

Jim Curry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 19:30:09 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: aricraft arms

On Fri, 23 Sep 1994, Drew Halevy wrote:

> A query-what was the largest armaments carried by Allied aircraft during
> WWII? The biggest I can think of is seeing a photo of a B25(?) with a
> 75mm in the nose. As a sub-question, what is the largest cannon carried
> in a fighter plane (such as a P-XX) thanks-Drew

This is a recurring question. The biggest conventional cannon in a WWII
aircraft was probably the 102mm weapon that the Italians fitted in the
Piaggio P.108A, a four-engined bomber. The Germans experimented with even
larger weapons, but these were more a kind of recoilless
projectile-launchers, and did not reach service. Lighter 75mm, 50mm or
40mm guns were fitted to numerous anti-tank aircraft.

The P- series fighters with the largest cannon were the Bell P-39, P-63
and P-59, each with a single 37mm gun. There were plans to make a larger
use of this gun (six in the McDonnell XP-67!) but these remained
experiments.  The Germans experimented with 50mm guns, in fighters such as
the Me 410 and Me 262, as anti-bomber weapons.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 13:29:09 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: aricraft arms

Hello, Drew!

> A query-what was the largest armaments carried by Allied aircraft during
> WWII? The biggest I can think of is seeing a photo of a B25(?) with a
> 75mm in the nose.

    That is the largest of which I am aware. The recoil was such that
it made the crew feel as though the plane had temporarily stopped in
mid- air.

As a sub-question, what is the largest cannon carried
> in a fighter plane (such as a P-XX) thanks-Drew

    20mm is the largest of which I am aware in American aircraft,
although experimentation may have included others. Hans Rudel had
used the 37mm cannon as common armament as commanding officer of the
"Immelmann" Geschwader to destroy tanks.

Also the Me-262 "Schwalbe", a German fighter, carried four 30mm cannon
as standard armament. There was some experimentation of this aircraft
and its suitability to carry a single 50mm cannon into combat, but
this made the nose very heavy and also substantially affected
performance.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 14:42:19 EDT
From:    Patrick D Marsden <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: aricraft arms

>
> A query-what was the largest armaments carried by Allied aircraft during
> WWII? The biggest I can think of is seeing a photo of a B25(?) with a
> 75mm in the nose. As a sub-question, what is the largest cannon carried
> in a fighter plane (such as a P-XX) thanks-Drew
>
> Drew Halevy

Although probably not the largest (hopefully someone
on the list will confirm this) the B-25 did carry
a 75-mm cannon on some models.   Here's some stat's
on the models (G & H) which carried the cannon.

patrick
[email-masked]

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Taken from "The Concise Guide to American Aircraft of World
War II" Cartwell Books, (ISBN 0 78580 147 2) by David Monday:

"Developed for attacks on Japanese shipping, the B-25G carried a
75mm M4 U.S. Army cannon mounted in the nose, the cannon being
provided with 21 15-lb shells.  The armament was supplemented by
a pair of 0.5-in. guns which were used also to aim the heavier
weapon.  In addition, the dorsal and fully-retractable ventral
turrets each contained two machine guns.  Five B-25Cs were, in
fact, completed as B-25G's and over 400 were subsequently built
at Inglewood.  This version was initially assigned to the US Far
East Air Forces, entering service with the 498th Squadron in
February, 1944.

The Mitchell with the greatest firepower was the B-25H, of which
1000 were built at Inglewood.  The 75-mm cannon was of the lighter
T13E1 model and the four 0.5-in. guns, also mounted in the nose,
were augmented by two similar guns in blisters on each side of the
fuselage below the cockpit.  The twin gun dorsal turret was relocated
to a position just aft of cockpit, and the armament was completed by
a 0.5-in gun in each of the waist positions and two in the tail.
Additionally, the B-25H could carry a 3,000 ib (1361 kg) bomb load
and a torpedo, as could the B-25J in which the glazed nose with its
bomb aiming station was reintroduced, reducing the nose armament to one
hand-operated and four fixed 0.50-in guns.  Some later aircraft also
had a solid nose with eight 0.50-in guns, bring the total of these
weapons to 18.  Underwing racks could carry eight 5-in rockets.  The
USAAF contract was for 4,805 B-25J's but as the war ended 415 were
cancelled and 72 were completed but not delivered; all were manufactured
at Kanasas City."

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 14:25:37 -0400
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: Czech TOE

        The Czech Mobile Division had two brigades.  One was a horse cavalry
brigade which consisted of two heavy horse cavalry regiments, a battalion of
motorcycle troops, and a battalion of horse-drawn artillery.  The second
brigade was mechanized.  It consisted of one armored regiment, which in
turn consisted of three armored battalions and one motor-cycle battalion.
The second brigade also had a regiment of truck-towed artillery and two
battalions of mechanized troops.
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
I thought you said three Shermans.  Those
nuts have brought half the army with them.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 11:54:42 -0800
From:    Julian E Gomez <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: SS Jeremiah O'Brien

>The SS Jeremiah O'Brien, the last sailing example of the 2,571
>Liberty ships, sailed into San Francisco harbor today (23 Sep 94)
>after completing a 5-month, 20,000 mile (32,186 km) trip to Normandy
>and back to celebrate the 50th anniversary of D-Day.
>
>>From what I have read, the city went crazy.  O'Brien was greeted by
>dozens of boats, fireboats spewing plumes of water, helicopters and
>...

Fitting. KRON-TV said there were more than 40 boats escorting her into the bay.

>...
>The O'Brien has been a tourist attraction at Fisherman's Wharf for
>the past several years.  Does anyone know if she will "return" to
>that duty?

This was briefly covered on the local news this morning. According to KRON,
they will be celebrating at the pier until they leave for a parade at noon,
and are already talking about next year's trip (but the reporter didn't say
to where).

"I was a precocious child and obviously destined to be a scientist."

        Dr. Julian "a tribble took it" Gomez
        Apple Computer, Inc.  408/862-1289 or 996-1010
        [email-masked]  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 14:52:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: 82d Airborne Div

The State of New Jersey has issued a vanity license plate honoring the 82d
Airborne Division.  The license plate, was sponsored by the Northern Jersey
Chapter of the 82d Airborne; it consists of the distinctive "AA" shoulder
patch in the upper left corner and the Airborne insignia (open parachute
over a set of wings) on the left of the license plate number.  The license
plates were made available in June in time for the D-Day rememberance.  So
far, more than 300 license plates have been sold by the state of New
Jersey but the plates are only available to 82d veterans.

Also in New Jersey, a plaque is being designed for a bridge being dedicated
by the 82d Airborne on US Highway Number 1 (US1) in Middlesex County, the
county in which I live and work.  (New Brunswick, home of Rutgers
University, is the county seat.)  Stay tuned and I will see if I can find
out additional information about the bridge.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 14:04:34 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Gustav Geraet

Hello, Brad, Dave and others!

Here goes with some more info on the Gustav Geraet.

                  Specifications

Calibre: 800 mm/31.5 inches

Length of gun: 32480 mm/1278.74 inches/106.56 feet

Length of bore: 28957 mm/ll40.74 inches/95 feet

Rifling: 96 grooves, right hand twist

Breech mechanism: horizontal, hydraulically operated sliding block,
                  percussion fired.

Traverse: Nil, fired only from a curved track.

Elevation: +10 degrees to +65 degrees

Weight in action: 1,350,000 kg/2,976,750 lbs/1328.9 tons

Length over buffers: 42976 mm/1691.97 inches/141.00 feet

                  Performance

Firing high explosive shells weighing 4800 kg/10,584 lb/4.73 tons

Full charge: velocity 820 meters per second/2690 fps

Maximum range: 47,000 meters/51,400 yards/29.20 miles

Firing concrete-piercing shell weighing 7100 kg/15656 lb/6.99 tons

Full charge: velocity 710 mps/2330 fps

Maximum range: 38,000 meters/42,557 yards/23.61 miles

                Ammunition

Separate loading, cased charge.

    On Monday, I will post the projectiles and propelling charge
specifications.

    Hope this has been of interest.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 14:07:49 CDT
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: PELELIU

Dear Ben,

Thanks for the quick response. Alperovitz has been on this hobby horse so
long you can barely see him above the rut he has dug. I think he does have
some points (yes, some US policy people were giving a warning shot to
Stalin; so what?) but the day he or any other early cold war revisionist        type includes a book in Cyrillic or Kanji in his bibliography is the day
I`ll pay attention. I recall reading somewhere that in his late May
or June 1944 (yes, `44) speech to the graduating class of the Military
Intell School Stalin declared that the US had superceded GB as the main
enemy. Love to get a copy of the text to verify this. Fussell's comment
was nervously ignored in academic circles, especially because his other
books were so well received. I agree about scrapping the exhibit, if all
we get is the tail of the dog out front.

Of interest: A brief obit of Downey, the 509th chaplain, whose death was
noted on this line earlier, appeared in the NY Daily News this morning.
Haven't seem my Times yet.

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 15:09:14 -0400
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: aricraft arms

>
>    20mm is the largest of which I am aware in American aircraft,
>although experimentation may have included others. Hans Rudel had

Both the P-39 Airacobra and P-63 Kingcobra carried as standard armament one
American Armament Corporation's 37 MM T-9 cannon.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 14:19:18 -0600
From:    Chip Merton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRIV: Weapons in movie _The Cross of Iron_

My mistake regarding the Marvin/Coburn mix-up.  I was typing that up at 3 am
CST.  Kinda tired :-)

Chip Merton "[email-masked]"

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 14:38:36 EDT
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <[email-masked]>
Subject: The B-17 as a hot rod

I was talking to a veteran of the 8th AF's 388th BG a few days
ago, and he told me of a B-17 hot rod that his group had built.

The 388th BG, based at Knettishall, was the group that conducted
the Aphrodite project, where war-weary B-17s were stripped to
reduce weight, then loaded with radio control equipment and
explosives to become remotely controlled flying bombs.  The group
flew nineteen Aphrodite missions in all.

In addition to Aphrodite, the group was also tasked with modifying
a B-17 to enable it to carry the British blockbuster bomb.  The
bomb was both larger and heavier than a B-17 could normally carry.
The bomb bay was made longer and deeper, cutting away the original
wing spars running thru the fuselage and building inverted
U-shaped replacements.  All of the armor and armament was removed to
save weight, and like the Aprodite aircraft, the upper decking was
removed, producing an open-topped B-17 hot rod with much improved
performance.  An automobile windshield was added.

When the project was abandonded, the group was left with a B-17
that wasn't suitable for combat, but they soon found it had another
use.  B-24 pilots were fond of reminding B-17 pilots that the
B-24 was the faster of the two.  Pilots from the 388th would take
their hot rod aloft and search for B-24 groups practicing formation
flying.  Approaching from above and behind, the aircraft would swoop
down alongside and easily pass the B-24s.  As they passed by, the hot
rodders would stand up in their open cockpit and snap off a salute.

Dennis E. Sparks
[email-masked]
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 15:51:26 EDT
From:    Kim Riddle <[email-masked]>
Subject: Smithsonian/American Legion Press Release

The following press release was distributed Thursday by the Smithsonian
National Air and Space Museum
---------------------------------------------------------
Sept. 22, 1994

NATIONAL AIR AND SPACE MUSEUM AND THE AMERICAN LEGION ANNOUNCE WORKING
RELATIONSHIP REGARDING EXHIBITION ON THE ATOMIC BOMB AND THE END OF
WWII

The American Legion and the Smithsonian's National Air and Space Museum
announced today that the two organizations have agreed to meet and
discuss differences regarding the National Air and Space Museum's
exhibition marking the 50th anniversary of the end of World War II and
the atomic bombing of Japan.  "The Last Act: The Atomic Bomb and the
End of World War II" is scheduled to open in May 1995.

The agreement to meet comes as a result of actions taken at The
American Legion's recent national convention and as a result of ongoing
discussions between representatives of the two organizations.

"I believe that both organizations recognize the importance of this
subject, and that both organizations want to see an exhibition open
that is historically accurate, objective, balanced and recognizes the
sacrifices that American servicemen and servicewomen made and were
prepared to make during the war" said National Air and Space Museum
Director Martin Harwit.  "The only way we can try to understand each
other's point of view and reach agreement is by sitting down and
talking about our differences.  We appreciate the willingness of The
American Legion, the largest and most respected veterans organization,
to do so."

In the latest of a series of face-to-face discussions between the two
organizations, The National Commander of The American Legion, William
M. Detweiler told museum officials and exhibit curators that major
disagreements remain, and will not be easily remedied.

"More than anything else, our disagreements center on the estimate of
the number of lives saved by the use of atomic weapons in 1945.  Was it
30,000, or was it 500,000 potential invasion casualties?  To the
museum, this seems to be a matter of some significance, a matter of
relative value to the decision.  To The American Legion, the use of the
weapon against a brutal and ruthless aggressor--who had vowed to fight
and die down to the last schoolchild and was organized to do just that-
-to save 30,000 American lives was as morally justifiable as to use it
to save a half a million.  In fact, for any government with the means
to end the slaughter on both sides, not to use those means would be
morally indefensible," Detweiler said.

The National Commander, armed with a National Convention mandate to
continue discussions with the museum, indicated that even the line-by-
line evaluation of the current script may not resolve the differences,
but he has approved additional discussions.  "We want this exhibit to
succeed, but we insist that it be accurate, that it present the service
and sacrifice of America's veterans as the legislative charge to the
Institution mandates, and that the role of the Japanese as the cause of
the conflict be fully detailed.  Failing that, we will not hesitate to
exercise the options available to us to actively oppose the exhibit."

The museum's original exhibition concept, as represented in the draft
script prepared in January 1994, has been criticized by a number of
organizations and individuals for its lack of balance and context.  In
response, the museum has expanded the exhibition review process beyond
its original advisory committee, to include additional scholars,
military historians and representatives of The American Legion.

On Sept. 3, 1994, Harwit and Smithsonian Under Secretary Constance
Newman briefed members of The American Legion's Internal Affairs
Commission at The American Legion's National Convention in Minneapolis,
Minn.  The American Legion subsequently passed a resolution expressing
the organization's continuing concern that the exhibition contained
biases against the U.S. role in World War II and questioned U.S.
motives in ending the war.  The resolution also called for the
organization's National Commander to appoint one or more
representatives to participate in a review of all materials related to
the exhibition.

On Sept. 21, members of the National Air and Space Museum's exhibition
team and representatives of The American Legion met at the museum and
discussed "A Fight to the Finish," one of the exhibition's six units.
Both organizations will meet continue discussions next week on each of
the other units in the planned exhibition.

The American Legion was chartered by Congress in 1919 as a patriotic,
mutual-help, and community-service organization which now numbers more
than 3.1 million members--men and women--in nearly 15,500 American
Legion Posts worldwide.  The American Legion has its headquarters in
Indianapolis, Indiana, with offices in Washington, D.C.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 13:09:00 PDT
From:    alva <[email-masked]>
Subject: Call for Proposals

CALL FOR PROPOSALS.  The 1995 annual meeting of the Oral History
Association will be held on October 19-22 in Milwaukee, WI.
"Reflections on Relationships in Oral History Research" is the
theme.  OHA invites scholars and practitioners from a variety of
disciplines and fields to submit by December 15, 1994, proposals
for individual papers, panels, roundtables, workshops, and entire
sessions.  Contact Professor Michael A. Gordon, Department of
History, University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, P.O. Box 413,
Milwaukee, WI 53201; (414) 229-4314; fax (414) 229-6827; e-mail
[email-masked]; or Professor Gwendolyn Etter-Lewis,
Department of English, Western Michigan University, Kalamazoo, MI
49008-5092; (616) 387-2629; fax (616) 387-3999; e-mail
[email-masked]

Dale Treleven/Alva Stevenson, UCLA Oral History Program
(senders).

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 15:12:41 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: aricraft arms

Hello, Ron!

Thanks for the info. Any idea as to its performance and was it
successfully used in combat?

    Terry

> Both the P-39 Airacobra and P-63 Kingcobra carried as standard armament one
> American Armament Corporation's 37 MM T-9 cannon.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 15:33:17 EDT
From:    SKIP WILDER <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: VET:Locating Vets

For David Rising:
        Had occasion about six weeks ago to chat at some length with RADM
Eugene Fluckey, USN(Ret.).  Fluckey was awarded the MoH and *four* Navy
Crosses for his exploits in the Pacific as commanding officer of the
submarine BARB, the "Galloping Ghost of the China Coast."  After WWII,
Fluckey   continued his career in the US Navy rising to Chairman of the
Board of Inspection & Survey and retiring in the late '60s after serving as
Director of Naval Intelligence.  Still quite spry and entertaining in his
early eighties, Fluckey lives with his wife in Annapolis and recently
authored _Thunder Below_ about BARB and his recent return to the coast of
China, site of his earlier accomplishments.  BTW, Fluckey was wearing his
MoH at the time we met (Pacific War Conference, Arlington, VA, early August).
        He's probably listed in the Annapolis phone directory; perhaps you
can contact him that way.
        Hpoe this helps.

------------------------------------------------------------
|    Skip Wilder               |                           |
|    [email-masked]       |"The road to hell is paved |
|    FAX (703)528-2103         | with good intentions."    |
|    McLean, Virginia, U.S.A.  |                           |
------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 14:42:00 -0500
From:    Colin Brace <[email-masked]>
Subject: SS Jeremiah O'Brien

Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 13:59:00 EST
From: "Colin Brace"@MR.MGH.HARVARD.EDU
Subject: SS Jeremiah O'Brien
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------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 16:52:07 -0500
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: aricraft arms

The Russians apparently liked the firepower provided by the 37-mm, especially
in the ground attack role-- not only did they take roughly half the P-39's
produced through Lend-Lease, but they also mounted  the 37-mm in versions of
their LaGG-3 and Yak-9 fighters.  Not sure if the US or Soviet 37-mm had
jamming problems similar to those experienced by the German 30-mm MK108.
Other weapons of similar calibre that I'm aware of in WW2 fighter aircraft
are the 37-mm and 57-mm guns mounted in the Japanese Army Ki-45 "Toryu"
two 40-mm guns in the Nakajima Ki-44 "Shoki" bomber attack versions.

Regards

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 17:08:09 EDT
From:    Kim Riddle <[email-masked]>
Subject: Enola Gay News Conference

Following are remarks from a joint Smithsonian/American Legion press
conference.

Remarks by Martin Harwit, Director,
National Air and Space Museum
Press Conference
September 22, 1994

As most of you know, the Museum has for many months been planning an
exhibition  The Last Act: The Atomic Bomb and the End of World War II.
Last January, we assembled a first draft of the entire label script.
We knew we would have to go through many further drafts as we sought
advice and suggestions from the widest possible range of interested and
knowledgeable scholars, veterans who had actually been there and
experienced the war, and military historians.  Right from the beginning
we sought to make this review broad and inclusive.

With advice from all these quarters, the exhibition has gone through
several reviews, as all major exhibitions produced by this museum do --
a process for which we always allot many months.  That's why we started
with a first fully assembled draft fifteen months before the expected
exhibition opening.

This particular exhibition, however, has had even more scrutiny than
most others, because of the sheer immediacy of the events we describe,
particularly for those who were there in the war in the Pacific.  For
them the mission of the Enola Gay and the dropping of atomic bombs on
Hiroshima and Nagasaki were highly personal.  They led to the rapid
conclusion of the war, obviated the need for invading Japan, and thus
saved untold numbers of lives.

Given the sensitivity of the subject, the Museum has always considered
the greatest difficulty in preparing this exhibition to be a correct
conveyance of perceptions:  Does the script for the exhibition convey
the same meanings to the reader -- and ultimately the Museum visitor --
that the curators and exhibition staff of the Museum intended to
convey?

We have found, over the past months, that the exhibition's intended
thrust was often misunderstood and that veterans were alarmed by what
they perceived the Museum to be doing.  Fortunately, in discussions
with us, The American Legion volunteered to work with us to help weed
out points of contention.  We agreed to sit down to clarify points of
view with the aim of improving the exhibition so that no false
perceptions could arise.  This is what we now intend to do.

We look forward to working with representatives of the Legion, and hope
that we will be able to reach agreement that will lead to an exhibition
which will be unambiguous in its text, objects and images.  Our aim is
to recapitulate the last few months of the War to provide visitors
clear insight into the single most pivotal historic event of our
century.

We look forward to this partnership and expect it to work to the
benefit of a stronger exhibition to open in May 1995.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 16:57:00 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Aftermath of Market Garden???

Jim Curry <[email-masked]> said:

>Market Garden could have been called an Allied victory only if it had
>achieved its objective--a bridgehead over the Rhine. The sacrifice of
>1st Airborne Division would have been  justified if the Rhine had been
>crossed.  Failure at Arnhem meant defeat for Market Garden.
>One of MOntgomery's many unappealing traits was an inabilaty ever to
>admit failure (or making any kind of mistake, for that matter). He
>always claimed Market Garden as a victory on the grounds that his forces
>had advanced, taken, and held territory.  But the facts are clear.

I agree with you, Jim, ideologically. Monte not being able to admit de-
feat was an obvious play, taking advantage of the politics in the high
command, knowing Ike would do whatever necessary to hold the coalition
together. No offense, Sydney. I calls 'em as I see 'em. Of course,
Patton (who could hardly talk of one without the other) was victimized
by the politics, and luckily so, since he might have cost the American
army many more lives. It also seems clear to me that Monte had the
tougher ground to take toward the North Sea.

-Al

Todays subliminal message is:

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 18:21:03 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRIV: Weapons in movie _The Cross of Iron_

>
> Part of the reason the PPSh was so popular with the Germas was that 71-shot
> drum...I've also seen a book, might have been Ian Hogg's Encyclopedia of
> WW2 small arms, that thinks its simply because "the grass is always greener"
> for the other side...the MP40 would seem to have it all over the PPSh-1941
> in every respect except ammo capacity (reliability, effective range, more
> powerful cartridge...).  Just my two cents...

Actually, the 7.62x25mm Type P cartridge is quite a bit more powerful than
the 9x19mm Parabellum, especially in the Czech loadings, which approach .30
Carbine power.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 20:31:54 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: PELELIU

Thanks for your offer, Cassady. The main problem is that many of the people who
are raising hell about the exhibit, veterans, veteran assons, etc., have never
read the script, and so there is somewhat of a feeding frenzy about the
exhibit, which it deserves, but I believe than any meaningful criticism can be
made only when one reads the script. I do not feel that I can do anything but
speak on this list in generalities based on what I read. My suggestion is for
those who are interested in learning more about the exhibits and the complaints
and reservations that are held about it, write to the Editor of the Air Force
Association magazine. I have no address, but I feel certain that one or more
members of this list are members of the AFA and have already seen the numerous
editorials its journal has published about the exhibit. The reason I can speak
only in generalities is that I don't want to head a WWII-L revolt against the
exhibit. I do not feel for a number of obvious reasons that it would be
appropriate for me to do so. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 20:55:17 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: PELELIU

Henry, thanks for your comments. Who takes Alperovitz seriously except some
naive freshmen. There is something about Fussell I really like. His honesty and
lack of euphemisms, for the most part. I also like him for his championing of
my friend Gene Sledge's book, "With the Old Breed at Peleliu and Okinawa." John
Keegan speaks very highly of it also. If you have not already read it, please
do so. And after you do, I'll not have to speak of Peleliu or Okinawa again.
Gene's unsophisticated narration tells it all. Coincidentally, I was stretcher
bearing in Gene's Co K, 3d Bn, 5th Marines at Awacha Pocket when the battalion
was ambushed there by the Nips. A lot of our WWII experiences are in common.
But these are just musings of an old Marine. Ben

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 20:58:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: PELELIU

 >From UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU!owner-wwii-l Fri Sep 23 20:40:48 1994
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 >Date:         Fri, 23 Sep 1994 20:31:54 -0400
 >Reply-To: World War II Discussion List <[email-masked]>
 >Sender: World War II Discussion List <[email-masked]>
 >From: Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
 >Organization: Heller Information Services, Inc., Rockville MD
 Ben Frank writes:

 >Thanks for your offer, Cassady. The main problem is that many of the people who
 >are raising hell about the exhibit, veterans, veteran assons, etc., have never
 >read the script, and so there is somewhat of a feeding frenzy about the
 >exhibit, which it deserves, but I believe than any meaningful criticism can be
 >made only when one reads the script. I do not feel that I can do anything but
 >speak on this list in generalities based on what I read. My suggestion is for
 >those who are interested in learning more about the exhibits and the complaints
 >and reservations that are held about it, write to the Editor of the Air Force
 >Association magazine. I have no address, but I feel certain that one or more
 >members of this list are members of the AFA and have already seen the numerous
 >editorials its journal has published about the exhibit. The reason I can speak
 >only in generalities is that I don't want to head a WWII-L revolt against the
 >exhibit. I do not feel for a number of obvious reasons that it would be
 >appropriate for me to do so. Ben Frank

The address for the Air Force Association is:

Air Force Association
1501 Lee Highway
Arlington, VA 22209-1198
Telephone: (703) 247-5800

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 24 Sep 1994 03:03:31 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: aircraft arms (Was...)

On Fri, 23 Sep 1994, Emmanuel Gustin wrote:

> The P- series fighters with the largest cannon were the Bell P-39, P-63
> and P-59, each with a single 37mm gun. There were plans to make a larger
> use of this gun (six in the McDonnell XP-67!) but these remained
> experiments.  The Germans experimented with 50mm guns, in fighters such as
> the Me 410 and Me 262, as anti-bomber weapons.

Just to add something more: The 37mm Colt gun of the P-39 Airacobra and
P-63 Kingcobra was the largest gun in an American fighter, but not the
largest in an Allied fighter. The anti-tank version of the Hawker
Hurricane carried two 40mm Vickers S guns in underwing pods, and the
anti-tank version of the Yakovlev Yak-9 was built with 37mm or 45mm
Nudelmann-Suranov guns, firing through the propeller hub. This 45mm weapon
was probably the largest gun carried internally by a single-engined
fighter... A bit stressing the limits of the 'fighter' designation is the
Mosquito XVIII 'Tse-Tse', with a 57mm, six-pounder Moulins gun in the
nose.

The Germans installed 50mm guns in some twin-engined fighters, and the
Japanese 37mm and 57mm. The Germans also developed a number of 55mm
cannon, but none of these was used in combat.  The prize for the largest
'fighter' gun intended for air-to-air use goes the Japanese, however. The
Mitsubishi Ki.109 was an interceptor version of the Ki.67 medium bomber,
with a 75mm AA cannon in the nose. They actually built 22, but because the
superchargers were not available, the Ki.109 was simply unable to reach
the operating altitude of the B-29s, and it was not a success. 75mm guns
were also installed in the B-25 Mitchell, Junkers Ju-88, Henschel Hs 129,
and Heinkel He 177 -- but all those were intended for air-to-ground use.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 21:21:12 -0400
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Radio Memory

On Fri, 23 Sep 1994, Kurt Luginbyhl wrote:

> Technology has changed so dramatically that virtually anything a reporter could
> tell an enemy the enemy already knows.  I was first aggravated by the media
> landing in Somalia.  What a circus!  But then I later realized that anybody
> who wanted to know knew where the landings were going to be.  Desert Storm
> and Grenadawere different types of operations and carried certain restrictions
> for the media blood suckers.
-[snip]

Interesting terminology. I agree with the fact that many of these
operations are becoming media feeding frenzies, but who on this list
_didn't_ watch the CNN coverage of the Gulf war, content only to
sanctimoniously listen to our radios and read our papers?

> The camera crews and reporters are a pain to the soldiersbut the MILITARY
> sure could use some good ink and video.

Not sure what you mean by this, but if you mean that military families
spend the entire duration of these operations glued to the TV to see if
their relative is safe and appreciate the coverage, I agree. Cheers,
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 21:29:23 -0400
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRIV: Weapons in movie _The Cross of Iron_

On Fri, 23 Sep 1994, Tim not Timothy Scherrer wrote:
[snip]
> russian--like the Panzer 38 (t) for czech.  I have not heard of
problems
> with them jamming with the drum--everyone I know who owns one likes it.
> TAS

Tim, wasn't the problem that it took _ages_ to reload them? That was
always my understanding. Cheers,
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 21:51:31 EDT
From:    Cassady Craft <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: aricraft arms

Drew/Robert:

For the allies, I think the 75 was the biggest in a bomber.  However, for
a fighter the P-39/400 and P-63 airacobras and king cobras respectively,
carried a 37mm cannon that shot through the prop hub with a very slow
rate of fire.  Other than that, the 20 mm was used in about all of the
British fighters (in different marks), but the US wasn't ready to scrap the
.50 cal machine gun.  The 20mm was in the Bearcat, Tigercat at the end of
the war--but these saw no and little service, again respectively.

Cassady Craft
Department of Political Science
University of Georgia
e-mail [email-masked]
or
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 22:02:29 EDT
From:    Cassady Craft <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Smithsonian/American Legion Press Release

Is it only me or does anyone else think that this is incredibly muddle headed?
It simply doesn't matter how many lives were saved, because NO ONE knows!
There is conjecture now as to how many lives would have been lost, just like
there was conjecture then.  What mattered for the decision made THEN, was the
conjecture of the time--not today's conjecture (what, are the NASM people
exercising their "nonlinear" thinking skills on this one?).  Based on their
proximity to the fighting in the Pacific, and particularly the Okinawa
fighting which probably--again conjecture--resembled what would have happened
in Olympus, isn't it obvious that we simply must take their word for it in
a historical sense?  Sure, revise--but that doesn't change what happened, only
shows alternate explanations or rationales.

If any of the NASM are on this list, please inform me why you guys are taking
such a stand.  I think dying for a cause is heroic, but defaming a heroic
cause is cowardice.

Cassady Craft
Department of Political Science
University of Georgia
e-mail [email-masked]
or
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 22:11:45 EDT
From:    Cassady Craft <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: SS Jeremiah O'Brien

Good God, Colin!  What was that?

Cassady Craft
Department of Political Science
University of Georgia
e-mail [email-masked]
or
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 22:13:03 EDT
From:    Cassady Craft <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Aftermath of Market Garden???

In regard to Al's comment on Patton:

About your comment that Patton's political hardships were blessings because
they saved American lives--how is this so?

Patton's method of attack was designed to break the enemy and render him
unable to stand and fight later.  Heavily front loaded were the casualties,
but "ol' blood and guts" did not have a higher casualty rate than the other
commanders.  In fact, he was an immaculate professional about taking care of
his troops--training, discipline, etc.  Even the slapping incident makes this
point--Patton was at the hopital because he was a professional and that was
part of what he perceived his job to be, and the cases of combat fatigue,
cowardice, or whatever you want to call it, revolted against that
professionalism.

I may be insinuating more than you meant, but you almost say that Mongomery's
way was better.  I have to disagree.  My argument would be that Monty, while
every bit as professional as Patton, was not nearly as imaginative--nor did
he seem to grasp the future (and past) of warfare as far as maneuver went.
I point out Russell Weigley's argument that Monty on the left was a strategic
mistake in its own right, becuase the Brits didn't have the manpower to force
the issue--while the Americans did but were locked in the Bocage for so long.
Remember that Monty spoke of knocking about around Falaise in the days after
the invasion--and was at fault for never closing the pocket.  His plan was
the one used for DDay, and even given mitigating circumstances (those of you
who think supply is for the professional while strategy for the amateur,
consider the embroglio that was caused by supply because the US soldiers were
left on the west side of England--closest to the US--and thus made them
come ashore on the right, ie. furthest from the direct line to germany,
forcing the manpower starved Empire to face the prospects of the heavy
fighting), Monty's execution forced any of his imaginative planning to conform
to his set-piece style.  I think he just barely got away with it.  But the
Germans certainly weren't impressed with him; but the converse with Patton.

Given Weigley's other point, that the Brits were configured for striking
power but not movement, while the US armored and mech divisions were sort of
like frontier cavalry that exercised speed and mobilitiy at the expense of
hitting power (the M4 sherman being the case in point), Patton seemed to
play his cards exactly right.  A prolonged slugging match is not for the
fighter who only has the punching power to jab.

I would suggest for anyone interested to read Weigley's _Eisenhower's
Lieutenants_ for a great analysis of the American Army in Europe during the
Second World War.

Cassady Craft
Department of Political Science
University of Georgia
e-mail [email-masked]
or
[email-masked]

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Date:    Fri, 23 Sep 1994 22:53:06 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: TRV: Admiral Yamamoto's Father?

Can anyone tell me if Admiral Yamamoto Isoruku's fathers "given" name was
Gon'nohyoei (or if this is a relative of Ole' 57's?)

Non urgent question, I've run across the name in a book of Japanese
Imperialism (Myers's and Peattie's book) and was wondering if this was
the father of the Japanese genius.

Larry J

[email-masked]; Co-Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU (Historical docs)
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

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End of WWII-L Digest - 22 Sep 1994 to 23 Sep 1994
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