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Status: OR

There are 50 messages totalling 1418 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. ADMIN: Going on autopilot
  2. FW: GEN: MAINLY ... (2)
  3. Oops HMS Kelly
  4. MEDIA: Smithsonian Exhibit (2)
  5. Question for Henry S.:  What was the book, again? (2)
  6. ADMIN: PLEASE READ
  7. WEAP: Montana Class (was German "H-Class" battleships)
  8. WEAP: Concrete ships
  9. 50TH: SOVIET TROOPS WITHDRAW FROM EAST GERMANY (2)
 10. U.S. "war plans" for the Pacific (2)
 11. HOMEFRONT- Japanese
 12. Comments re continuation of MONTANA class BBs (2)
 13. [INF] USAAF 2 SEP 44 (2)
 14. Newborn Airborne!
 15. Need source for videotape of movie
 16. Airshow, anyone? (2)
 17. Ack!
 18. INF: 50 Years Ago - 03-SEP-1944
 19. WEAP: Concrete Ships
 20. US MARINE PUBS
 21. WEAP: Enola Gay
 22. WEAP: MONTANA CLAS
 23. 50TH: SOVIET TROOPS WI
 24. GEN: ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS (2)
 25. GEN: INFORMATION ON AIR FORCE HEADQUARTERS IN AFRICA?
 26. German War Crime Trials (3)
 27. Liberation of Paris
 28. GEN: INFORMATION ON VET PUBLICATION?
 29. German Invasion of Norway (2)
 30. Free French Forces (2)
 31. WWII Torpedo Destruction Figures
 32. Hammelburg Debacle
 33. Learned a lot:  Information from doomed garrisons ... ships
 34. U.S. 'war plans' for the Pacific
 35. 50TH: LIBERATION OF PARIS
 36. REF: Hemingway articles?
 37. (War Crimes) U.S. 'war plans' for the Pacific

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Sep 1994 07:30:51 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <sep@TVSS2.COMMNET.EDU>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: Going on autopilot

Joe Barone, WWII-L listowner explains;

>        I've just been notified of a death in my family which will require
>me to be away from Internet access over this Labor Day weekend.  As a
>result, I won't be able to help with any problems that might arise.  I
>should be back by next Wednesday (there is some serious driving involved
>forcing the long hiatus).  I would appreciate everyone's cooperation in
>allowing the list to run smoothly.  Thank you.

Mucho condolences, sorry to hear the bad news.

I won't even post anything political while you're gone.

                                                                Steve

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - sep@trctc.commnet.edu |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Sep 1994 01:41:42 EDT
From:    John Sloan <JohnS426@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: FW: GEN: MAINLY ...

HI Folks,
Unfortunately discussions of the relocation of the Japanese from the
exclusion zones on the West Coast generally degenerates into flames. I
certainly don't want to start anything again. But I do have the official
report prepared by the commanding general, Gen Dewitt, that gives a
tremendous detailed picture of the entire process. It is full of statistical
table, charts, graphs, maps, photos andaccounts of who did what and when etc.
 There are many data on the age, sex and place of birth of the Japanese.
Posting the info would take a bit of doing, but it might dispell some myths.
A total of 117,116 persons were evacuated to Assembly or Relocatin centers,
or migratedfrm the area etc between 2 March and Oct 31 1942. of these 110723
entered assembly or relocation centers and 6,393 did not.  The initial
exclusion order proposed voluntary movement and about 4889 individuals did
move east voluntarily before it became evident that this was not going to be
practical, fora number of reasons spelled out in the report. Actually over
10,000 submitted cards indicating they planned on voluntary movement, but as
the figures show only 4889 did so move.
The population was about 64% native born and 36% foreign born, but of the
adults it was 64% foreign born and 36% native born (ie in US). However it was
typical for young Japanese to be sent back to Japan for schooling, thus much
of the proJapan sentiment was actually in the younger set, born in the US but
educated in Japan. Among the fervently nationalist organizations that were
active were the Hokubei Butoku Kai or Military Virtue Society of North
America, organized in 1931. This organization promoted Bushido among the
Japanese throughout North America. Another was the Heimusha Kai, which mostly
collected donations from America to support the Japanese war effort during
the 30's. It was organized in San Francisco Oct 24, 1937 and had at least
10,000 members by 1940. Then there was the Zaibei Ikuei Kai (Society for
Education of the Second Generation in America) which was set up in Los
Angeles in April 1940. There were 248 schools with a faculty of 454 and
student body of 17,800 in California alone. The Japanese language textbooks
used in these schools were edited by the Department of Education of the
Japanese Imperial Government.
The average age for American born Japanese returning to the US was 17.5 years
and they had average of 7.4 years of formal schooling in Japan prior to
return.
Well the data goes on and on, but this should sufice to indicate that the
process was much more complex than it is said to be in the popular press
today.
I can prepare more information as desired but anyone can get their copy from
a library of the book
Final Report Japanese Evaculation from the West Coast 1942, US Gov Print
Office Washington 1943.

best wishes

john sloan

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Sep 1994 13:08:38 +1523847
From:    Kevin Noonan <knoonan@CLEESE.APANA.ORG.AU>
Subject: Oops HMS Kelly

Sorry folks   My question about HMS Kelly stands but I suddenly noticed I
typed David McLean   when I meant David Lean :(


Kevin Noonan
knoonan@cleese.apana.org.au

After all is said and done, sit down

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 1 Sep 1994 21:19:46 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Smithsonian Exhibit

> James E. Irwin wrote:
>
> >    The exhibit, which will include the front fuselage of the Enola
> > Gay, the B-29 that dropped the first atomic bomb on Hiroshima on Aug.
> > 6, 1945, had already been revised once in response to the criticism.
>
> Why only "the front fuselage"? What will they do with the rest of the
> bomber? Just surprised,

The aircraft is still in restoration, but hasn't been completed or
assembled.  The Smithsonian focused all (most) effort on the forward
fuselage so it would be ready for this exhbit.

The assembled Enola Gay is supposed to go on display at the as-of-yet
unbuilt facility at Dulles, if I recall correctly.

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 1 Sep 1994 20:54:57 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Question for Henry S.:  What was the book, again?

OK, Henry, if you're going to be "difficult" -- :-) --
  WHAT was the author/title again?

Lou

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 1 Sep 1994 20:53:20 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: PLEASE READ

Should controversy be taboo on *any* list, Joe?  Or is this
  just an unpopularity (of views) contest?

Are there some members who *have* to bring up/*read* (or at
  least see) a msg, before they can D(elete) it?

Any of us should be free to say anything, as long as it is
  somehow related to WWII.  If reactionaries want to argue
  something contemporary ad nauseum, let them back-channel.

Maybe it's my time in Alaska, but Lower-48ers spend/waste an
  awful lot of time (and stifle an awful lot of creativity)
  "taking offense."

I've earned my views.  If someone else's views don't agree
  with mine, I can live with it.

Are the PCers on this list forbidden to say anything
  inflammatory as well, Joe?

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 1 Sep 1994 18:42:58 -0700
From:    Ed Kettler <deradler@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Montana Class (was German "H-Class" battleships)

The Japanese, like the Americans, learned a lot during WW2.  Information
from doomed garrisons was used to prepare island bases for the "steel
typhoons" which characteriszed amphibious operations.  Larger land
masses, such as the Marianas and the Bonins offered better defensive
terrain than the small and flat atoll islands, which the Japanese used to
great effect.  When you can't reach the target with shells or bombs, then
you have to resort to infantry and tanks to destroy the enemy.  I have
heard the technique called "blowtorch and corkscrew" (flamethrower and
satchel charge).

Ed Kettler                                       deradler@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 1 Sep 1994 18:06:15 -0800
From:    Julian E Gomez <jeg@APPLE.COM>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Concrete ships

>Last week or so, someone had a message about concrete ships.  In a
>...
>(including a photograph) along with a discussion about the controversy
>over their design and use.

Just curious... how much controversy can you get over a subject like this?
Seems to me the important questions are how well does it float and take
battle damage, not what it's made of.



"I was a precocious child and obviously destined to be a scientist."

        Dr. Julian "a tribble took it" Gomez
        Apple Computer, Inc.  408/862-1289 or 996-1010
        jeg@apple.com  julian.g@applelink.apple.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 1 Sep 1994 20:56:54 -0400
From:    David Rising <drising@ACS.BU.EDU>
Subject: Re: 50TH: SOVIET TROOPS WITHDRAW FROM EAST GERMANY

On Thu, 1 Sep 1994 coon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU wrote:

> Terry asks how do I see Soviet troops taking Berlin, _liberating_
> or otherwise.  I am in no way sympathetic to the Nazis or their
> government but no matter who the foreign power was, Soviets, Americans,
> British, etc., I do not see any of us _liberating_ German territory.
> We liberated France from its occupiers, we _conquered_ Germany and
> Berlin.  Similarly we did not liberate Japan, we occupied it and
> we can all be glad that our fathers, brothers, selves, did not have
> conquer it.
Sorry Brad, guess I should have read all of my messages before I replied
to your first post. Cheers,
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 1 Sep 1994 20:55:11 -0400
From:    David Rising <drising@ACS.BU.EDU>
Subject: Re: U.S. "war plans" for the Pacific

> > books in peacetime. While the Germans were sentenced to long years in
> > jail for this, most, if not all, of the Allies were guilty of the same
> > thing.
>
>     I think the answer to this last statement will depend on the
> point of view.
>
>     Terry

Don't get me wrong Terry, I don't think that the Nazi's shouldn't have
been brought to trial. I just think that it would have been more
effective and meaningful had they been tried in German courts by German
judges for German laws (all on the books at the time) which they broke.
The end result would have been the same, but it wouldn't have created any
martyrs. Just my opinion, of course.
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 1 Sep 1994 19:52:34 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: HOMEFRONT- Japanese

Japanese dockyard workers helped in the "miracle" of the
  YORKTOWN's repair in time for Midway.

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 1 Sep 1994 19:43:35 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Comments re continuation of MONTANA class BBs

Doug,

     I think Marc Mitscher's boys did all the commenting
necessary when they sank MUSASHI and YAMATO.  Even a little
squad of jeep carriers could beat off the Japanese battleline!

     I've heard that Halsey wanted a gun duel between our
IOWAs and the YAMATO, but Mitscher ignored that and sent in
his planes anyway.

     Has anyone else heard this?

Lou

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 1 Sep 1994 20:40:59 -0400
From:    David Rising <drising@ACS.BU.EDU>
Subject: Re: 50TH: SOVIET TROOPS WITHDRAW FROM EAST GERMANY

On Thu, 1 Sep 1994 coon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU wrote:

> I saw a news broadcast yesterday in which the newscaster spoke of
> Soviet troops _liberating_ Berlin in WW 2.  Makes one wonder just how
> much the media types really know about all of this.

Not to get into this with you Brad (as I agree in this case), but the
Soviet troops din "liberate" Berlin from the Nazis. I imagine you
disagree with this terminology because the Stalin regime was as
reprehensible as the Hitler regime (IMHO). On the other hand, since the
Allies were at war against Germany, _all_ cities taken by Allied armies
were actually _conquered_ and not "liberated". I guess my point is that
whether Berlin was "conquered", "liberated", or "moved from one
repressive dictatorship to another" is a matter of perception, and is not
something concocted by "media types".
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 1 Sep 1994 20:37:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 2 SEP 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
SATURDAY, 2 SEPTEMBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 8 B-25s hit targets along the
Burma Road S of Wanling, including the road itself and bridges at Kawnghka
and Namhpakka; another B-25 hits an alternate target, an area in Indaw; and
24 B-24s haul fuel to Kunming, China.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 2 B-25s bomb the runway at Hengyang
Airfield; 30 P-40s attack gun positions, troop concentrations, and sampans in
the Hengyang and Changning areas; 20 P-40s hit similar targets S of Changsha,
W of Pengtse, and in the Siangtan area; and 12 P-51s damage a bridge at
Yangtien.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Missin 596: 34 of 36 P-47s strafe
gun positions and road and rail traffic in the Bruges-Ghent-Courtrai-Roulers,
Belgium area; 2 P-47s are damaged beyond repair and 7 are damaged.
  2 C-47s fly CARPETBAGGER missions to France.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, weather grounds the
bombers; fighters fly armed reconnaissance and area support to ground forces
in Belgium and NW, NE, and E France; HQ IX Tactical Air Command, moving with
HQ US First Army, moves from Haleine to Versailles; the 153d Liaison
Squadron, IX Tactical Air Command, moves from Maillebois to Sy Cyr with L-5s;
the 428th, 429th and 430th Fighter Squadrons, 474th Fighter Group, move from
Neuilly to St Marceau with P-38s; and the 508th Fighter Squadron, 404th
Fighter Group, moves from Chapelle to Bretigny with P-47s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  AAF, MTO: The 72d Liaison Squadron, AAF, MTO (attached to Seventh Army),
moves from Brignoles to Grenoble, France with L-5s.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): HQ XV Fighter Command
(Provisional) is activated and given control of the 306th Fighter Wing and
it's 7 fighter groups; in Yugoslavia, 380+ B-24s hit the Kraljevo railroad
bridge and marshalling yard, a railroad bridge at Mitrovica, road a bridge at
Supovac, and 3 marshalling yards at Nish; 27 P-38s dive-bomb the Cuprija road
bridge while 57 P-38s and 112 P-51s strafe roads and railways in the Nish and
Belgrade areas; other P-51s escort Nish and Supovac bombing missions.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s bomb 3 bridges in
the Po Valley, following a raid during the night of 1/2 Sep by A-20s which
hit a pontoon bridge and targets of opportunity in the Valley; and fighter-
bombers blast roads, bridges and gun emplacements in Po Valley, docks at
Savona, and shipping off shore. In France, fighter-bombers, hampered by poor
weather, hit barracks and rail lines in the Lyon area; and HQ 324th Fighter
Group moves from Le Luc to Istres.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 2 Saipan Island-based B-24s hit Yap and Pagan
Islands. P-47s hit AA positions on Pagan Island with rocket and strafing
attacks. Marshall Islands-based B-25s bomb Ponape Island, Caroline Islands
and Nauru Island, Gilbert Islands.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: On Mindanao Island,
24 B-24s bomb supply and personnel areas  at Lasang, 12 B-24s hit shipyards
and personnel areas at Bunawan, and 22 B-24s hit Likanan Airfield.  B-25s hit
warehouses and shipyards along Lembeh Strait, while other B-25s hit a
position near Pitoe Airfield on S Morotai Island, Moluccas Islands. B-24s
bomb Koror Island, Palau Islands. In New Guinea, fighter-bombers hit the
Sorong area and forces at Cape Pus and Boikin.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

02/0040Z SEP

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Sep 1994 07:33:51 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Newborn Airborne!

Hello, Alan!

Congratulations!!

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 31 Aug 1994 14:28:10 EDT
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <sparks@ALPHA.CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: Need source for videotape of movie

Does anyone on the list know where I can find a videotape of the
1948 movie "Fighter Squadron"?  According to Leonard Maltin's
"TV Movie Guide", the movies starred Edmund O'Brien and Robert
Stack, and was also Rock Hudson's first movie.  The guide indicates
that the movie was a cliche-filled action/drama about a WWII fighter
squadron (flying P-47s), but with good action sequences.  I believe
that color footage from a 15th AF P-47 group in Italy was used in
the film.

An acquaintance is looking for a copy of the film and has not
been able to find a source.  Unless you think it is of general
interest to the WWII-L, please post any replies directly to me.

Thanks in advance....

Dennis E. Sparks
sparks@alpha.caer.uky.edu
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 31 Aug 1994 14:52:51 EDT
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <sparks@ALPHA.CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: Airshow, anyone?

Is anyone else on the list planning to attend the 2nd International
Aviation Heritage Airshow at the Clark county, Indiana airport?
Clark county is just across the Ohio River from Louisville, Kentucky
(take exit #4 off I-65), and the show is 9-5 on Sunday and Monday
(3-4 September).  Tickets are $8 (adults) and $6 (children).

At last year's show, host Charles Osborn flew his immaculate P-47
"Big Ass Bird", his P-51D "Hurry Home Honey", and had his partially
rebuilt F4U on static display.  There were a total of eight P-51s
flying; plus Geneseo's B-17 "Fuddy Duddy", C-47, and B-25, two F4Us,
an FM-2 Wildcat, a PV-2 Harpoon, a second B-25.  A C-121 Connie was
also among the static displays.  Former Mustang aces Chuck Yeager,
Robin Olds, "Pete" Peterson, and Tom Hayes made flights and signed
autographs.

I plan to be there for the Sunday show, and would like to meet
anyone else from the list who plans to attend.

Dennis E. Sparks
sparks@alpha.caer.uky.edu
Lexington, Kentucky
(606) 873-8827 (home)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Sep 1994 08:48:26 EDT
From:    Doug McCabe <mccabe@OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Ack!

                   Ohio University Electronic Communication


   Date:  02-Sep-1994 08:45am EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject:  Ack!


    Joe,
         I've misplaced my copy of the intro with instructions on how to go
    NO MAIL. Could you help please, just this once?  Thanks.

    Doug McCabe



Received:  02-Sep-1994 08:48am

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Sep 1994 05:48:17 -0700
From:    John Davis <jbd@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 03-SEP-1944

On 03-SEP-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The British XXX Corps liberates Brussels. At this point the
Allied front runs from the mouth of the Somme in the north to Troyes in the
south along the line Lille-Brussels-Mons-Sedan-Verdun-Commercy. In the south,
the French 1st Infantry Division enters Lyons. Most of the German 19th army
has been withdrawn. The German 1st Army, manning the Bay of Biscay, has also
been withdrawn from southwest France. 130,000 German soldiers have succeeded
in rejoing Army Group B, but 80,000 others have been taken prisoner.

Italian Front - Canadian units cross the Conca and continue their advance.

Wake Island - RADM A.E. Smith leads a task force of 1 carrier, 3 cruisers and
3 destroyers in a strike against Wake Island.

Foreign Affairs
---------------
Soviet-Finnish Truce - Helsinki reports that an agreement has been made to
cease fighting at 9 a.m. Sept. 4. Stockholm reports that German troops have
already begun evacuating northern Finland.

The Homefront
-------------
Congressional Medal Awarded - A posthumous award of the Congressional Medal of
Honor has been made to Captain Arlo L. Olson, Baton Rouge, La., infantry
company commander fatally wounded in Italy last Oct. 13 on a reconnaissance
mission.

Light Cruiser Launced - The light cruiser Tuscan is launched at the Bethlehem
Stell Co. yard, San Francisco.

New War Equipment Shown - The Army has exhibited some new weapons and
equipment at the Aberdeen, Md. proving grounds. The M-18 "Hellcat" tank
destroyer has a speed of 55 miles an hour and can knock out most enemy tanks
with its 76-mm cannon. The M-36 tank destroyer, armed with a 90-mm gun, can
stop the biggest enemy tanks. The M-24 is a new 19-ton tank with a 75-mm gun,
speed of 35 miles an hour and a 160-mile range. The "Locust" is a baby
airborne tank which goes into action from gliders and troop transports.
Designed especially for the Pacific war, the M-29C, amphibious troop and cargo
carrier called the "Water Weasel" can go nearly anywhere at hgh spped.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  jbd@netcom.com
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Sep 1994 07:39:31 PDT
From:    Jim Brady <brady@ONRAMP.NET>
Subject: Re: FW: GEN: MAINLY ...

---------------Original Message---------------
HI Folks,
Well the data goes on and on, but this should sufice to indicate that the
process was much more complex than it is said to be in the popular press
today.
I can prepare more information as desired but anyone can get their copy from
a library of the book
Final Report Japanese Evaculation from the West Coast 1942, US Gov Print
Office Washington 1943.

best wishes

john sloan
----------End of Original Message----------

John,

   Thanks for getting some authoritative information. This should be invaluable to
have on hand when the popular press does anniversary or special features on
the subject.

-- Jim Brady

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Sep 1994 09:12:34 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Concrete Ships

     Dr. Julian

     >Just curious... how much controversy can you get over a subject
     >like this? Seems to me the important questions are how well does
     >it float and take battle damage, not what it's made of.

          At the time, the controversy was over the method of ship
     consturction.  Ships were to be made "the old fashioned way"  Lay a
     keel, build up from the keel, etc.  Ships poured from concrete molds,
     and ships built in complete sections then joined together (Kaiser
     Jeeps) just didn't fulfill ancient maritime tradition.


        Steve L. New                     .............................
        Weapon System Manager            .............................
        Battalion Countermine Set        ............ /\ .............
        U.S. Army TACOM AMSTA-FR1D       ............/  \.............
        DSN: 786-5403  FAX: 786-7788     ............    .............
        EMAIL  NEWST@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL   ............    .............

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Sep 1994 08:40:54 EST
From:    coon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU
Subject: Re: Comments re continuation of MONTANA class BBs

Lou asks about Halsey wanting a Yamato/Iowa matchup.  I am
guessing that you are referring to the Yamato's last mission??
I just finished reading _A Glorious Way to Die_ (sorry I am bad
about authors) and if I recall correctly, the BBs sent north to
intercept the Yamato  were the older ships under Admiral Deyo.  I
believe that column consisted of ships such as the Colorado, Tennessee,
etc.
Anyone out there who knows exactly the composition of Deyo's BB
force?
*****************************************************
(Roger) Brad Coon             The right to defend
COON@IPFWCVAX.BITNET          one's self and one's
COON@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU    family against harm and
                              injustice is the most
                              basic civil right.

Proud to be a member of America's largest civil rights
group, the National Rifle Association.
******************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Sep 1994 09:51:27 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: Re: US MARINE PUBS

The Marine Corps WWII commemorative pamphlets are available for sale by GPO.
Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Sep 1994 08:48:13 -0500
From:    "Sidney W. Kitchel" <kitchel@OCTOPUS.DPSI.COM>
Subject: WEAP: Enola Gay

Jorge Merino writes to the list:
>James E. Irwin wrote:
>
>>    But Tibbets, 79, said he was unhappy that the exhibit still will
>> include only a part, the front fuselage, of the Enola Gay, the B-29
>> that dropped the world's first A-bomb, on Hiroshima on Aug. 6, 1945.
>>    By displaying the bomber without its wings or other parts, the
>> museum will "disgrace" it, he said in a telephone interview. "I think
>> there should be a modification made there."
>
>I completely agree with Tibbets. It sounds ridiculous to exhibit such a
>famed aircraft without wings, like a hunted animal. I think this B-29
>should be treated with more respect. If there are space problems, there
>must be an alternative solution that could allow to exhibit the bomber
>"complete". I hope the plans for this exhibit will be reviewed.
>Just defending a WW2 warbird,

        It may not be just space. Obviously a completely restored B-29
will take up plenty of room. The eventual permanent display will be a
rather large venue at Dulles. However, it sounds to me like NASM is
working with what they've got. For quite a while Enola Gay's wings
have been off and the fuselage has been in two large pieces. Possibly
the 50 year mark has come and the Paul Garber restoration crew has not
finished their work. Thus the only available Enola Gay is in several
pieces.
                                                        --Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel           kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Sep 1994 10:23:29 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: Re: WEAP: MONTANA CLAS

The problem at Iwo was that the Navy refused to provide the number of days of
prelanding naval bombardment wanted by the V Amphibious Corps. This matter was
exacerbated by the snotty attitude of the naval commanders who felt that they
know how much NGF was sufficient for the operations. They only extended the
time when an up to that time hidden position fired on UDT teams working the
beaches and the obstacles. Further NGF blew away the camouflage of other hidden
positions on Suribachi. The inefficient NGF at Tarawa provided a number of
lessons which were observed in following operations. The NGF support in the
Marshalls was great, and Adm Conolly earned the nickname "Close in" for his
directive that this NGF support ships were to get in close enough to scrape
their keels, almost. Morison covers this well. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Sep 1994 10:27:32 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: 50TH: SOVIET TROOPS WI

John, after having read all your recent postings, I am firmly convinced you
have the makings of an interesting autobiography in your brain and papers. It
would be an interesting commentary on the times and places in which you lived.
Get to it, put down that first word on paper, and then....Cheers, Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Sep 1994 10:35:37 CCS
From:    Jorge Merino <jem@VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Smithsonian Exhibit

Robert J. Granvin wrote:

> > Why only "the front fuselage"? What will they do with the rest of the
> > bomber? Just surprised,
>
> The aircraft is still in restoration, but hasn't been completed or
> assembled.  The Smithsonian focused all (most) effort on the forward
> fuselage so it would be ready for this exhbit.
>
> The assembled Enola Gay is supposed to go on display at the as-of-yet
> unbuilt facility at Dulles, if I recall correctly.

Thanks Robert, this explains everything!!

Jorge Merino

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Sep 1994 14:20:26 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: GEN: ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

  September 2, 1994

  HENRY SIROTIN asked whether JFK had been tipped off by the Soviets about the
division of Berlin.  I have never seen any evidence that he was.  However, he
did not need to be.  It was clear to us that the Soviet could not tolerate the
continued refugee flood and would move to cut it off.  The question in our minds
was whether they would divide the city or isolate all of Berlin.  The evidence
for this is a telegram that I drafted and sent to the field several weeks before
August 13.
  The trouble was that the focus of our planning was on what would happen if the
Soviet turned ground access to Berlin over to the east Germans.  As a result,
there was almost no planning for the division of city.  Hence, we did not
anticipate the terrible psychological problem this would pose for the west
Berliners.  The result, as usual, was improvisation.  JFK sent VP Johnson to
Berlin, plus another brigade of troops.  The latter caused us problems later,
but that is another story.

  MIKE YAKLICH asked about books in English about the invasion of Norway.  The
best one I know is was written by a Frenchman, Francois Kersaudy.  The English
title is NORWAY 1940.  It has a bibliography and has the advantage that it
covers what was going on in Berlin, Paris, and London, as well as in Norway.
Norwegian friends who were involved recommend it.

  WES SPRAGUE asks about Hemingway's writings on the war.  In fact, he wrote a
fair amount.  His articles for PM and COLLIERS can be found in HEMINGWAY BY-
LINE, edited by William White and published in pocket book by Grafton.
Unfortunately,he never wrote a novel about WWII as good as FAREWELL TO ARMS or
FOR WHOM THE BELL TOLLS.  Although ACROSS THE RIVER AND INTO THE TREES is a
terrible novel, it has some good descriptions of battle.  These include the
Huertgen Forest hell.  The trouble was that he had the hero tell the story to
a young girl, who was asleep beside him in bed.  (He was at that time infatuated
with an Italian girl.)

  Hemingway spent quite a bit of time with the 4th Division.  The best
description of this experience I have seen is in Carlos Baker's biography of
him.  This is based primarily on interviews with Col. Buck Lanham, commander of
the 4th's 22nd Regiment, with whom Hemingway (and later Baker) became a good
friend.

  Those of you who have read my book LETTERS HOME know that I have a chapter
about Hemingway and Ernie Pyle, who also spent time with the 4th, with the title
THE IMPORTANCE OF BEING ERNEST.  (Couldn't resist it.)

  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Sep 1994 22:59:34 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: GEN: INFORMATION ON AIR FORCE HEADQUARTERS IN AFRICA?

  September 2, 1994
  For a period, during the last half of 1943, my father was a rail bombing
officer at the Air Force headquarters commanded by Brig. Gen. Norstad, at La
Marsa, near Tunis.  I believe the field was called MacNaff.  His job was to pick
rail targets, presumably in Italy but I am not sure of this.
  Could tell me a bit about this headquarters?
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Sep 1994 11:09:12 EDT
From:    Jerry Kasiowniak <JKASIOWN@WAYNEST1.BITNET>
Subject: German War Crime Trials

>FROM:         DAVID RISING <DRISING@ACS.BU.EDU>

>DON'T GET ME WRONG TERRY, I DON'T THINK THAT THE NAZI'S SHOULDN'T HAVE
>BEEN BROUGHT TO TRIAL. I JUST THINK THAT IT WOULD HAVE BEEN MORE
>EFFECTIVE AND MEANINGFUL HAD THEY BEEN TRIED IN GERMAN COURTS BY GERMAN
>JUDGES FOR GERMAN LAWS (ALL ON THE BOOKS AT THE TIME) WHICH THEY BROKE.
>THE END RESULT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE SAME, BUT IT WOULDN'T HAVE CREATED ANY
>MARTYRS. JUST MY OPINION, OF COURSE.
>DAVID RISING

Germans judging Germans was tried after the first War and the results
left a bitter feeling with the Allies.

After WWII, the German judicial system was so nazified I cannot believe
any nazi would have been given a fair trial within the existing court
system. The most effective and meaningful way to try the nazis was
by the victorious Allies.

Jerry Kasiowniak
Wayne State University

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Sep 1994 12:41:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Liberation of Paris

The following Letter to the Editor appeared in the September 2, 1994 issue
of the NEW YORK TIMES.  I am acting as a reporter; I neither agree nor
disagree with this letter!

Jack McKillop

WHO LIBERATED PARIS?

To the Editor:
If your reporter had read "A Soldier's Story," by Gen. Omar N. Bradley,
he's know that iw was the United States Fourth Infantry Division that was
ordered into Paris.

I was in the Fourth from D-Day to the end of the war in Europe.  On the
rush across France, I saw tank after tank with the Cross of Lorraine on it
parked outside of farmhouses.  The crews were visiting while we went
forward.

William E. Finnigan
Cornwall-on-Hudson, N.Y.
Aug. 26, 1994

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 3 Sep 1994 00:25:06 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: GEN: INFORMATION ON VET PUBLICATION?

  September 2, 1994
  I am trying to get in touch with the editor of The Military Railway Journal
and/or The Ex-CBI Roundup.  The MR Journal is or was the publication of the
National Military Railway Service Veterans.  The Roundup is or was the
publication of the China-Burma-India Veterans Association.
  The last address I have for these publications was in Laurens, Ohio in 1975.
I called the number listed in one of the publications, but it is now assigned to
someone else.
  Can anyone help me with this?  A telephone and/or fax number would be most
helpful, but I would also appreciate even an address.
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Sep 1994 13:20:22 -0500
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: German Invasion of Norway

        Thanks to John and Tim for their suggestions on WW2 in Norway.  One
more question for John Ausland.  I recently came across a book entitled "Norsk
Krig 1940-45" a three-volume set published in 1947 which has the appearance of
an official history.   Lots of interesting photographs, but the problem (for
me) is that its in Norwegian.  From your vantage point over there, you wouldn't
happen to know if there's an English version, by any chance?  (I can decipher a
surprising amount of the text, partly due to the similarities to English and
partly from a knowledge of a lot of German military terms--a "haubitze" by any
other name is still a howitzer--but its slow and I'm sure I'm missing a lot).
Thanks for your help, its a real privelege from a historian's point of view to
have a person such as yourself with so much first-hand insight available on
this list.

        I'd like to join the others on the list in expressing my condolences to
Joe Barone for his recent loss.

Regards


Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Sep 1994 12:37:04 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: U.S. "war plans" for the Pacific

Hello, David!

Thanks for your timely reply.

> The end result would have been the same, but it wouldn't have created any
> martyrs. Just my opinion, of course.

    I agree with that. In fact, I think the Allies were too lenient
on some such as Speer, and too harsh on others, such as Admiral
Doenitz. I think German courts would have been tougher, reference,
Fritsche, Papen, and Schacht who were acquitte at Nuremberg but spent
years in jail as a result of being tried in German de-
Nazification courts. Their toughness may have been politically
motivated, but, as you say, the end result would have been the same.

    Thanks, again, David.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Sep 1994 12:57:07 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Free French Forces

Hello, Robert!

Will offer my two cents' worth on this.

> What are the international rules (if any) for countries that capitulate?

    When a country capitulates that is it. The conquering power may
set-up or devise any sort of government it wishes, and so on, at the
discretion of the conqueror.

> When a country surrenders does it null any state or declaration of war
> present at the time?

    Yes. However, underground resistance groups may arise, if the
government becomes to repressive.

> When France had reestablished its government did they RE-DECLARE war on
> Germany?

    No. The government-in-exile continued the fight on the continent
that had been waged from the beginning in England. As far as DeGaulle
was concerned, the puppet government set up in Vichy was dissolved
upon German occupation of the area in 1943. Thus, when the Germans
surrendered and DeGaulle entered Paris, as far as DeGaulle was
concerned, the fight was to continue, as a state of war had already
existed while he (DeGaulle) headed up the government-in-exile in
London.


 I know that the Free French forces and the resistance
> were active when France was occupied, but after, when they had their
> country back did they (French government)formally re-declare war on
> Germany, or just continue as if surrender had not happened?

    No. A declaration of war was not necessary. The same cannot be
said of the Italians, as you know, after Mussolini was ousted from
power in September 1943.

    It must also be remembered that France was the only country which
fought against Germany that signed a peace treaty with them. This, in
itself, made France a special case.

    Hope this helps, Robert.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Sep 1994 13:01:26 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: WWII Torpedo Destruction Figures

Hello, Robert!

You might try Clay Blair's book that chronicles every American sub
patrol. I am sure that that info would be contained in an appendix. I
am sorry that I can't think of the title. I think it is something
like "The Silent Service" but I can't be certain. It is the most
detailed work of any I have seen on this subject.

Hope this helps.

Terry

 > Can anyone out there help, either with specific statistics
or with
> sources?  (I can't believe that I haven't such figures in my reference
> books; maybe I'm not looking at the right index item.)
>
> ======================================================================
> Robert Gannon              |  Internet:  RHG@PSUVM.PSU.EDU
> 35 Burrowes Building       |  Phone:     814 355-4800 or
> Penn State                 |             814 355-0943
> University Park, PA 16802  |  Fax:       814 863-7285
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Sep 1994 13:22:25 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hammelburg Debacle

Hello, Ron!

There is one book I would recommend. It is called "48 Hours to
Hammelburg" (I can't think of the author's name.) It came out in
paperback some years ago, but goes into great detail on that episode.

I have seen it referred to in others and even discussed, but only
peripherally.

 Hope this helps.

 Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Sep 1994 14:39:23 EDT
From:    John Sloan <JohnS426@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Airshow, anyone?

HI all,
with respect to Dennis's remarks about an historical air show in KY, wish I
could make it but.  Went to first of this kind of show I have ever seen just
last weekend at Frederick Maryland and found it was wonderful. They had B17,
Zero's Meserschmidt, P40, P38, P47, b24, B25 and a lot more, but the crowd
pleasers were the reenactment of Pearl Harbor and various bombing attacks
with simulation explosives on the ground and simulated aerial dog fights etc.
 Highly recommended. - take the kids.

john sloan

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Sep 1994 15:23:46 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <BAUER@VAX1.ROCKHURST.EDU>
Subject: Re: German War Crime Trials

I am no authority, but I thought that most of what Nazis wer doing in Germany
in WWII was within the law.

Perhaps someone can give some specifics here.

George Bauer
U.S.A.:  BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Sep 1994 16:57:22 -0500
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: German Invasion of Norway

Oops, my fingers got the best of me again...the title of the book I was looking
for in English is "Norges (not "Norsk") Krig, 1940-45."  It was published in
Oslo by Gyldyndal, authors were Steen and Eskeland.  I am mostly interested
in tactical aspects of the fighting and this volume appears to deal with these
in great detail.  Date of publication is given as 1947-50.  If anyone knows
where I can dig up an English version I'd love to hear from you

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Sep 1994 16:39:37 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Learned a lot:  Information from doomed garrisons ... ships

Steve Andereggen, my friend back in Juneau who is(?) doing a
  book on the ship, ran across reports by CAPT Swenson on the
  effectiveness of his ATLANTA-class ship and its proper
  deployment.

Of course, in the desperate situation in mid-November, JUNEAU
  had to be sacrificed in its secondary role as a super-
  destroyer.

Swenson was quite a fellow, beloved by his crew.  When he was
  beached, he would go off gold prospecting in the Southwest.
  (He was divorced, by the war.)  His son was at Annapolis,
  and Swenson docked there, to show JUNEAU off to the middie
  brigade.

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Sep 1994 16:44:33 CDT
From:    Henry Sirotin <hhs@EVEREST.HUNTER.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Question for Henry S.:  What was the book, again?

Dear Lou,

Edward S. Miller, WAR PLAN ORANGE, Annapolis, US Naval Institute Press,
1993 (I think, re the date). This is the US side of it. For the Brits,
interwar, Stephen Roskill published two volumes on British Naval Policy
Between the Wars, an approximate title which came out as volume about
the 1920's which appeared around 1969 and one about the 1930's that
appeared in the late '70's. Complement these with Arthur Marder's two
volumes on British-Japanese naval relationships from 1902-1945. I can
get biblio specifics on the Roskill and Marder if anyone needs them.

By the by, I resent "difficult." I am cruel, nasty, mean, and vicious,
and I work hard at it. Please don't sell me short :-) :-)

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Sep 1994 16:54:01 CDT
From:    Henry Sirotin <hhs@EVEREST.HUNTER.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: German War Crime Trials

Re George Bauer and David Rising's earlier post on German legal responsibility
under German law. It's my understanding that the under the post-Reichstag
fire Enabling Act of 1933 virtually everything the Nazis did, at least on
German soil, was legal, and this was one of the reasons for the international
tribunal. We have several law school people on the line, I think. Can anyone
confirm this?

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Sep 1994 17:08:56 CDT
From:    Henry Sirotin <hhs@EVEREST.HUNTER.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: GEN: ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

Dear John,

Thanks for the response re Berlin. At the risk of being a pest, what is
"the other story." Amen to Ben Frank's suggestion re an autobiography,
and I'd be happy to wait until then for those details.

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Sep 1994 18:37:31 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: U.S. 'war plans' for the Pacific

>David and Terry were saying,...
>
>Hello, David!
>
>Thanks for your timely reply.
>
>> The end result would have been the same, but it wouldn't have created any
>> martyrs. Just my opinion, of course.
>
>    I agree with that. In fact, I think the Allies were too lenient
>on some such as Speer, and too harsh on others, such as Admiral
>Doenitz...  <stuff deleted>

I understand the reference to Doenitz,... but what complicity does
Albert Speer have with war crimes? As I understand it, he was an
inventor and exec in mfg.

-Al

Alan G. Wild
Admin. Computing
University of Rhode Island
Kingston, R.I.  02881

I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Sep 1994 17:49:11 CDT
From:    Henry Sirotin <hhs@EVEREST.HUNTER.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Free French Forces

Thanks to Edward Miller's recent recommendation and the incredibly rapid
response of the U South Carolina Press order dept, I can add an interesting
subsubfootnote to the Free French issue. Two divisions of French colonial
troops and several air squadrons were offered for Operation Coronet,
which would have been the invasion of the Kanto Plain (Tokyo region) in
the Japanese home islands in March 1946. MacArthur turned down the air
power, as the language problem, the large number of US aircraft, and the
tight operational zone added up to trouble, but the troops were being
considered for use in the follow-on phase of the invasion and for future
combat on Honshu, if it developed.

To the best of my knowledge, other than reoccupying Indochina after the
Japanese forces there surrendered to the Chinese, the French military
played no direct role against the Japanese. Individuals did cooperate
(interesting, I almost wrote collaborate) with the OSS in Indochina,
I believe, but I'm hazier on this than I ought to be.

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Sep 1994 18:10:28 CDT
From:    Henry Sirotin <hhs@EVEREST.HUNTER.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: 50TH: LIBERATION OF PARIS

A belated comment that may be of some interest in the pc wars.
Jean-Paul Sartre and Simone deBeauvoir lived together in Paris
throughout the occupation. As I heard it, when their memoirs were published
much later, it appears they were quite active in the resistance.
They were so successful in this activities that not only did they
manage to keep them secret from the Germans and their French allies,
they were able to keep them entirely secret from the rest of the
resistance, as well.

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Sep 1994 20:41:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 2 SEP 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
SATURDAY, 2 SEPTEMBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 8 B-25s hit targets along the
Burma Road S of Wanling, including the road itself and bridges at Kawnghka
and Namhpakka; another B-25 hits an alternate target, an area in Indaw; and
24 B-24s haul fuel to Kunming, China.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 2 B-25s bomb the runway at Hengyang
Airfield; 30 P-40s attack gun positions, troop concentrations, and sampans in
the Hengyang and Changning areas; 20 P-40s hit similar targets S of Changsha,
W of Pengtse, and in the Siangtan area; and 12 P-51s damage a bridge at
Yangtien.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Missin 596: 34 of 36 P-47s strafe
gun positions and road and rail traffic in the Bruges-Ghent-Courtrai-Roulers,
Belgium area; 2 P-47s are damaged beyond repair and 7 are damaged.
  2 C-47s fly CARPETBAGGER missions to France.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, weather grounds the
bombers; fighters fly armed reconnaissance and area support to ground forces
in Belgium and NW, NE, and E France; HQ IX Tactical Air Command, moving with
HQ US First Army, moves from Haleine to Versailles; the 153d Liaison
Squadron, IX Tactical Air Command, moves from Maillebois to Sy Cyr with L-5s;
the 428th, 429th and 430th Fighter Squadrons, 474th Fighter Group, move from
Neuilly to St Marceau with P-38s; and the 508th Fighter Squadron, 404th
Fighter Group, moves from Chapelle to Bretigny with P-47s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  AAF, MTO: The 72d Liaison Squadron, AAF, MTO (attached to Seventh Army),
moves from Brignoles to Grenoble, France with L-5s.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): HQ XV Fighter Command
(Provisional) is activated and given control of the 306th Fighter Wing and
it's 7 fighter groups; in Yugoslavia, 380+ B-24s hit the Kraljevo railroad
bridge and marshalling yard, a railroad bridge at Mitrovica, road a bridge at
Supovac, and 3 marshalling yards at Nish; 27 P-38s dive-bomb the Cuprija road
bridge while 57 P-38s and 112 P-51s strafe roads and railways in the Nish and
Belgrade areas; other P-51s escort Nish and Supovac bombing missions.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s bomb 3 bridges in
the Po Valley, following a raid during the night of 1/2 Sep by A-20s which
hit a pontoon bridge and targets of opportunity in the Valley; and fighter-
bombers blast roads, bridges and gun emplacements in Po Valley, docks at
Savona, and shipping off shore. In France, fighter-bombers, hampered by poor
weather, hit barracks and rail lines in the Lyon area; and HQ 324th Fighter
Group moves from Le Luc to Istres.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 2 Saipan Island-based B-24s hit Yap and Pagan
Islands. P-47s hit AA positions on Pagan Island with rocket and strafing
attacks. Marshall Islands-based B-25s bomb Ponape Island, Caroline Islands
and Nauru Island, Gilbert Islands.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: On Mindanao Island,
24 B-24s bomb supply and personnel areas  at Lasang, 12 B-24s hit shipyards
and personnel areas at Bunawan, and 22 B-24s hit Likanan Airfield.  B-25s hit
warehouses and shipyards along Lembeh Strait, while other B-25s hit a
position near Pitoe Airfield on S Morotai Island, Moluccas Islands. B-24s
bomb Koror Island, Palau Islands. In New Guinea, fighter-bombers hit the
Sorong area and forces at Cape Pus and Boikin.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

02/0043Z SEP

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Sep 1994 23:15:50 -0230
From:    OLAF <olaf@KEAN.UCS.MUN.CA>
Subject: Re: REF: Hemingway articles?

X-News: leif mail.wwii-l:12354

>From: Wesley.Sprague@metrokc.gov (Wesley Sprague)
>Subject:REF: Hemingway articles?
>Date: 1 Sep 1994 20:37:28 -0230
>Message-ID:<9409012307.AA05368@unb.ca>

>                               - - Mail - -
>         September  1, 1994    3:56pm   MAIL IS -
>   FROM: Wesley Sprague                  Private
>     TO: WW-II
>SUBJECT: REF:  Hemingway articles?
>
>This is my first post, but I've been "lurking" in this list for quite a while
>now.  I've really enjoyed it, so keep up the good work, guys.
>
>My question is does anyone know what, if any articles, books, etc. Ernest
>Hemingway may have written about any aspects of WW II?  In my scattered readings
>I've seen several references to his being in the ETO in 1944 (e.g., at the
>Normandy beaches soon after D-day, at the front in Belgium just before the
>battle of the bulge, etc.).  But in checking a Hemingway bibliography in my
>local library I didn't see anything relating to WWII.  Maybe I missed the
>correct references.
>
>In any case I'd appreciate any leads anyone may have.  Thanks much in advance.
>
>Wes Sprague
>wesley.sprague@metrokc.gov

A number of years ago, Bantam Press published BY-LINE: ERNEST HEMINGWAY,
subtitled "Selected Articles and Dispatches of Four Decades," edited by
William White (NY and Toronto: Bantam Press, 1968). The book included a
selection of Hemingway's columns for various newspapers between 1920
and1956, including the Toronto Star (1920-1923), Esquire (1933-1936),
NANA Dispatch (1937-1938), and, during WWII, for PM and Collier's. The
collection is far from complete, but it does provide you with a glimpse
of some of the events that took place during the war. In 1941 he was
covering the Far East, with particular attention to China; the book
then skips forward to 1944, with a few columns on the V-1 rockets, the
battle for Paris, and war against the German "Siegfried Line." The book
is probably no longer in print, but you might be able to track down a copy
with the assistance of a librarian, and borrow it through an inter-library
loan program. Alternatively, look for Collier's issue from 1944.

Hope this helps. Good luck

Olaf Janzen
Corner Brook, Newfoundland


E BOOK INCLUDED; ISBN Y:

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 2 Sep 1994 22:21:41 CDT
From:    Henry Sirotin <hhs@EVEREST.HUNTER.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: (War Crimes) U.S. 'war plans' for the Pacific

Actually, Speer was an architect and a humanitarian who tried to bring
joy to the hearts of European children by supplying pyrotechnic displays
all across Europe in 1944-45. Today he would be a roadie for a rock
group. Clearly a misunderstood man.

HS

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 1 Sep 1994 to 2 Sep 1994
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 32 messages totalling 1270 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. <No subject given>
  2. 50TH: POSTSCRIPT TO EXERCISE TIGER (2)
  3. Zemke
  4. INF: 50 Years Ago - 05-SEP-1944
  5. 50TH: ROBERT CAPA-GOOD AND BAD LUCK
  6. 50TH: VOICES OF D-DAY AND OTHER BOOKS
  7. German War Crime Trials (3)
  8. U.S. 'war plans' for the Pacific
  9. OK:  How about a joint US/Japan/China/ABDA film commission?
 10. ADMIN: PLEASE READ, addendum
 11. Speer's complicity in war crimes.
 12. ex-ADMIN: Inflamatory postings. (3)
 13. INF: 50 Years Ago - 04-SEP-1944
 14. GEN: ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
 15. GEN: INFORMATION ON VET PUBLICATION?
 16. 50TH: SOVIET TROOPS WITHDRAW FROM EAST GERMANY
 17. HIST: German war crimes
 18. INF: USN Chronology 09-03-94
 19. War Plans
 20. Comments re continuation of MONTANA class BBs
 21. [WEAP] aircraft used to ram other aircraft thread...
 22. Nuremburg war trials
 23. Airshow report (2)
 24. ADMIN: PLEASE RE...
 25. [INF] USAAF 5 SEP 44
 26. FW: Re: ADMIN: PLEASE RE...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 4 Sep 1994 18:12:52 +0200
From:    itzhaki hadassah <hitzhaki@CCSG.TAU.AC.IL>
Subject: <No subject given>

hello Bill,
Thank you very much for your help.
Hadassah

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 4 Sep 1994 20:02:29 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: 50TH: POSTSCRIPT TO EXERCISE TIGER

  September 4, 1994
  The following appeared in the September issue of THE IVY LEAVES, the quarterly
newsletter of the 4th Infantry Division Association:

BEGIN QUOTE
  Normand Chariter of the NE Chapter received the following letter from Father
Robert J. Curtis, Col. Ret., 3837 Secor Road, Toledo, OH 43623.

Hi,
  I am a long retired Catholic Chaplain in the US Army.  While assigned to the
1st TD Group and waiting near the coast for D-6 to arrive, I was called for a
jeep trip for a funeral.  I was told that we had finally arrived in the American
Cemetery for WWI days at London.
  The ground was covered with hundred of bodies in what looked like burlap.
  I was told to have a Catholic funeral service for the bodies of the Catholic
men.
  In like fashion a Protestant Chaplain and a Jewish Chaplain each took care of
the men of his denomination.
  Then we were given sheets of paper containing the names of the men each had
buried.  We signed as directed.  Then were told "under no conditions may you
even mention this funeral to anyone in your life."  A few years ago in Monterey,
California, a speaker came from Washington to speak at the military school
there.  I did not go.  I did not think that I fitted in.
  We were told that there were 718 buried but we did not go around a count for
ourselves.
  I kept the security until it was released.  I thought that it might ease the
feelings of some families involved, if they knew of the funeral.
  I write three times a year to a couple of hundred families.  As I travel
across the country, I am able to visit a few.
  I will be 84 in September so I am not sure how much longer I will travel.
  I pray for all our dead, especially the war dead each and every day of the
year.  Please keep them in your prayers.
  God bless each of you.
  CH (Col.) Robert J. Curtis

JCA COMMENT:  It is clear from this letter and interviews which were on British
TV during the anniversary of Exercise Tiger that a lot of people were sworn to
secrecy.  One can only speculate on why this was.  It was best to keep this
secret for awhile, but why for all time?  I suspect this was because of the
failure of the naval authorities to provide proper protection for the convoy and
because of the communications foul up but have no way of proving it.

What is a pity is that these people were not informed that it was no longer a
secret once it was published in official documents shortly after the war.  My
guess is that the US Army historians were not aware that a number of people were
sworn to secrecy, and it would be unlikely any of them would see the brief
wartime press reports or the Gordon A. Harrison's CROSS CHANNEL ATTACK, in
which a brief reference to Tiger appeared.

I would like one day to see a full account of what happened.

Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 4 Sep 1994 09:53:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Zemke

The following is from the AIR FORCE NEWS AGENCY


625.  WW II ace dies
626.  Memorial architect chosen
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
625.  WW II ace dies
by TSgt. David P. Masko
Air Force News Service
     KELLY AFB, Texas -- Hubert A. "Hub" Zemke, 80, a World War II flying
ace who commanded the 56th Fighter Group, which scored the most aerial
victories of an Army Air Forces unit in the European theater, died 30 Aug
in Oroville, California.
     The retired Air Force colonel is best remembered as a tactician whose
innovations contributed to the success of his fighter group, dubbed
"Zemke's Wolfpack."  He was an ace with 17 aerial victories and eight
ground victories.
     World War II historians refer to Zemke as the "fightingest" fighter
commander in Europe because he led his group into battle so frequently.
Ironically, his death marks a period 50 years ago when Zemke and the
"Wolfpack," were going great guns, clawing down 300 German aircraft when
the war in Europe was winding down.
     A month later, on 30 Oct 44, Zemke was forced to bail-out and became
a prisoner of war in Germany.  Zemke then served as the senior U.S.
officer at Stalag Luft 1 with another AAF ace, Lt. Col. Francis S.
"Gabby" Gabreski.  Both aces were repatriated five months later through
Camp Lucky Strike, France, when the war in Europe ended.
     At the time of Zemke's downing, he -- like other seemingly
invincible combat pilots of his day -- was not nailed by an enemy pilot,
but by flak during ground-attack operations.
     Zemke began his military career as a pilot and officer in 1937 after
graduating from the University of Montana in his hometown of Missoula,
Montana.  In 1942 he took over the 56th and deployed it to England in
1943.  After his group had 300 victories, and pioneered the AAF fighter
escort with P-47s, he continued his winning ways as commander of the
479th Fighter Group flying P-38s.
     After the war, Zemke wrote two books, "Zemke's Wolfpack," and
"Zemke's Stalag."  His awards included a Silver Star, Legion of Merit,
Distinguished Flying Cross and the Purple Heart.
     He retired from the Air Force in 1966 after 29 years.
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
626.  Memorial architect chosen
     WASHINGTON (AFNS) -- Another step toward making the Air Force
Memorial a reality took place 18 Aug when an architect was chosen for the
project.
     The New York City-based firm of Pei Cobb Freed and Partners Architects
was selected to design the monument, Air Force Memorial Foundation
officials said.
     Pei Cobb Freed has designed and managed projects worldwide, including
the JFK Library in Boston, and the restoration of the Louvre in Paris and
the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, D.C.
     Thirty-six architectural firms were considered by the foundation's
Site and Design Committee and Board of Trustees, officials said.
     The foundation was set up in 1992 with the goal of raising US$25
million for the memorial.  Then, President Clinton signed a bill 2 Dec 93,
to authorize the Air Force to establish a memorial in Washington, D.C.
     The foundation has already received more than US$1 million in pledges
and donations, even before the foundation launches its official memorial
fund-raising effort, officials said.
--

      //^\\
     /// \\\
    ///   \\\
   ///     \\\                    Air Force News Agency
   |         |              Kelly Air Force Base, Texas, USA
   \\ CMSgt //    ___________________ /____________________________________
   \\ Mike  //
   \\Bergman/
    \\    //
       ~~


04/1356Z SEP

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 4 Sep 1994 04:56:22 -0700
From:    John Davis <jbd@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 05-SEP-1944

On 05-SEP-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The Allies achieve major successes along the entire front. In
the north, the Canadian II Corps takes Boulogne and approach the Calais area.
The US 1st Army approaches Liege and cross the Meuse at Sedan. In the south,
the 3rd Army crosses the Moselle near Nancy. Hitler brings Field Marshal
Rundstedt back to command the armies in the west.

Eastern Front - Russia declares war on Bulgaria. Russian forces invade and
within a few hours Bulgaria is forced to surrender.

Italian Front - The US 1st Armoured Division (IV Corps, 5th Army) enters
Lucca. In the eastern sector, the battle begins for the capture of the hills
of Coriano and Gemmano.

Foreign Affairs
---------------
Benelux Customs Union - The Benelux Customs Union (between Belgium,
Netherlands and Luxembourg) is established by agreement of the exile
governments. This is one of the first moves which will lead eventually to the
establishment of the European Economic Community.

The Homefront
-------------
Eastern Earthquake - An earthquake at 12:40 a.m. was felt throughout the
eastern seabord. Only minor damage was done. Cornwall, Ontario was the only
Canadian city reporting any substantial damage, with estimates placed at about
$1,000,000.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  jbd@netcom.com
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 4 Sep 1994 16:18:49 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: 50TH: ROBERT CAPA-GOOD AND BAD LUCK

  September 4, 1994
  David Rising has reminded me that I promised some time ago, in connection with
telling about meeting Robert Capa in Ste. Mere Eglise, to tell another story.
This, however, concerned not so much Capa as the weird events in the Place de la
Concorde on the day after the liberation of Paris, which I told a bit about in
an earlier message.  I forgot, however, to mention that during the confusion
Capa drove up in his jeep (with ROBERT CAPA painted prominently on the front),
and we had a chat about what was going on.
  The best story, however, that I know about Capa and Paris is told in Ingrid
Bergman's autobiography.  She was in Paris sometime after the liberation and
found a note slipped under her bedroom door.  It was from David Irving and
Robert Capa, inviting her to dinner.  She went and then became involved in a
lengthy affair with Capa.
  Talk about luck.  It is just a pity it did not hold out for Capa when he went
to Vietnam in 1954.  (He stepped on a land mine.)
  The most interesting story about Capa and the landing concerns what happened
to his film. After landing on Omaha and sending back a number of rolls of film
to London, the technician, who was under pressure to hurry, made a mistake and
destroyed almost all of them.
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 4 Sep 1994 15:56:11 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: 50TH: VOICES OF D-DAY AND OTHER BOOKS

  September 4, 1994  I have now seen Donald J. Drez's VOICES OF D-DAY.  It is a
collection of excerpts from taped interviews with veterans and supplements
Stephen Ambrose's book D-DAY.  Drez was Ambrose's deputy at the Eisenhower
Center in New Orleans before Ambrose resigned recently as director to concentrate
on other things.
  I have, as usual, read the chapter on Utah Beach first and found it gives some
interesting background, particularly with statements by commanders of landing
craft.  Since accounts usually concentrate on the landing, the terrible fate
some of the landing craft suffered is often overlooked.  After reading this, it
makes me realize again how lucky I was that the landing craft I was on got to
the beach with no trouble.
  Looking back, I do not recall giving much thought to the possibility of
hitting a mine, which a number of craft did.  I was concentrating almost
entirely on wondering what kind of welcome the Germans would give us when that
ramp went down.  As it was, by the time we landed at H plus 90, there was no
small arms fire on the beach, only the sound of mortar and artillery shells
exploding nearby.  Hence I reached the shelter of the sea wall and sand dunes
with no more than wet feet.
  Well, I digress.  If you have the Ambrose book and liked it, the Drez book
will provide it company.  I would not recommend getting it in the expectation it
will provide a full story of D-Day.
  For a full account of Overlord, I recommend the Green Book by Gordon A.
Harrison CROSS- CHANNEL ATTACK, which is available in paper back.  If you are
particularly interested in Utah Beach, there is UTAH BEACH TO CHERBOURG (also
available in a new edition), which gives a detailed account with excellent maps.
For a personal account of Omaha Beach, see Bruce Bliven Jr.'s THE STORY OF D-
DAY.
  BTW, if you are interested in a comprehensive account of WWII, I have now
read enough of Gerhard L. Weinberg's thousand page A WORLD AT ARMS to recommend
it.
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 3 Sep 1994 17:25:32 -0400
From:    David Rising <drising@ACS.BU.EDU>
Subject: Re: German War Crime Trials

On Fri, 2 Sep 1994, GEORGE BAUER wrote:

> I am no authority, but I thought that most of what Nazis wer doing in Germany
> in WWII was within the law.
>
> Perhaps someone can give some specifics here.

No George, not true. I think that people get confused here because we
constantly read that the way the Nazis siezed power was "legal". It was.
What they did, however, was not legal. Murder, etc. was not made legal by
the enabling act which allowed them into power (I'm hoping that I've got
the right "act"). Had they been tried for crimes such as these under
German law, they would have been found guilty.
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 3 Sep 1994 17:28:38 -0400
From:    David Rising <drising@ACS.BU.EDU>
Subject: Re: U.S. 'war plans' for the Pacific

On Fri, 2 Sep 1994, Alan Wild wrote:

> I understand the reference to Doenitz,... but what complicity does
> Albert Speer have with war crimes? As I understand it, he was an
> inventor and exec in mfg.

Not only did Speer design many of the concentration camps/gas chambers,
he also was responsible for putting the German manufacturing sector on a
war footing. This, some speculate, helped to perpetuate the war for over
a year. All in all, I think he got what he deserved.
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 3 Sep 1994 17:15:56 -0400
From:    David Rising <drising@ACS.BU.EDU>
Subject: Re: German War Crime Trials

On Fri, 2 Sep 1994, Jerry Kasiowniak wrote:

> Germans judging Germans was tried after the first War and the results
> left a bitter feeling with the Allies.
Comparing the two different wars doesn't really work as the situations
were _totally_ different

> After WWII, the German judicial system was so nazified I cannot believe
> any nazi would have been given a fair trial within the existing court
> system. The most effective and meaningful way to try the nazis was
> by the victorious Allies.
This is not true. There were _plenty_ of anti-nazi lawyers and judges
left in Germany and plenty more who had emigrated/fled in the early
1930's who could have returned. A trial where the victors try the
vanquished makes for a hollow and meaningless verdict (in my opinion).
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 3 Sep 1994 13:45:53 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: OK:  How about a joint US/Japan/China/ABDA film commission?

Reservations about setting up a U.S./Japan film commission to
  produce an "authorized" film explaining/resolving the moral/
  historical context of the wars in the Pacific, 193?-1945,
  were duly noted.

Maybe the national base of the commission should be broadened
  to include Chinese, British, Australian -- to Hell with the
  New Zealanders! --, Dutch, Filipino, (Canadian?), and Russian
  representatives.  I would recommend a membership of 6 Japanese,
  4 Chinese, 4 Americans, 2 British (one of whom could be
  Canadian), 2 Dutchmen, 2 Australians, 1 Filipino (at least),
  and 1 Russian.

At least this would help get across to the Japanese that it's
  not just us who are concerned about the(ir) history/
  interpretation of the War.

As is being discussed on MILHST-L, winning the battle in the
  field is only half the battle.  The other half is "winning"
  the history -- the Truth -- as we are finding in our struggles
  with the PC crowd.

Statues and battlefield parks are nice, but the Truth is the
  ultimate memorial to those who suffered the ultimate price of
  war (and/or) genocide -- and that is *our* battle, dear
  reader.

Lou Coatney
mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 3 Sep 1994 13:29:52 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: PLEASE READ, addendum

For the sake of the thin-skinned -- :-) -- I'll be sure to
  put my direct e-mail address after my name, so that you can
  lambast me without taking up bandwidth, if my opinions upset
  you too badly.

Fair enough?

Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 3 Sep 1994 13:11:00 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Speer's complicity in war crimes.

Alan,

     As the person responsible for Nazi war production, Albert
Speer was *quite* aware of the slave labor "Arbeit Macht Frei"
camps.

     At Nuremberg, Speer seemed more conscience-stricken than
most -- *seemed* -- and so his life was spared.  After his
release from prison, he did extensive personal investigation into
the Holocaust, although I sensed that Jews felt this was a little
*too* belated.

     Like Hitler, Speer was fundamentally an artist:  an architect
and creative.  I believe he first came to Hitler's attention when
they were planning the (grandiose) New Berlin.  It would have been
*quite* impressive, except that it would have been erected on the
corpses of millions of innocent people.

     Speer's wife was a classically beautiful German girl.  I
believe they had met as students.

Lou Coatney, Historian at Large ... Amuck?  :-)

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 3 Sep 1994 12:13:41 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: ex-ADMIN: Inflamatory postings.

"Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU> writes (in part)

> Should controversy be taboo on *any* list, Joe?  Or is this
>   just an unpopularity (of views) contest?

Lou, I couldn't disagree more. Controversy, in and of itself, isn't bad.
The byproducts of the controversies are the problem.  Flame wars waste
bandwidth and time and drive reasoned discussion and careful logic out,
leaving only babble and a senseless "did not!"-"did too!" battle.

> Any of us should be free to say anything, as long as it is
>   somehow related to WWII.  If reactionaries want to argue
>   something contemporary ad nauseum, let them back-channel.

You *are* free to say anything, just not here. If you want to start a list
where anyone can say anything, you're welcome to find a listserver that
will let you and then you will have the joy of freedom of speech.

I think the fundamental problem is that people think this is a "open forum"
and that it is on automatic or something.  I know from years of wrangling
this list that it is much more work than most people realize.  The work
the listowner puts into the list makes him or her want to protect that
list from destruction at the hands of flame warriors.

Lou, you're not in Usenet Newsgroup here, you're in the electronic equivalent
of someone's living room, discussing matters that people have come here to
learn about and contribute to.  If you want to speak freely, step outside
so you won't embarrass your host or the other people who wish to have
rational, flame-free discussion.

When I started this list I was guaranteed that flame wars would destroy it
just like they did in the group soc.history on the net.  I took the
challenge and dealt without mercy with anyone who violated the ground
rules I set. By providing a few simple restrictions I created a place
where people could find an oasis from the stupidity of flamers. Only one
or two people ever noted the brief, vicious battle I had with the Neo-Nazis
who found this list and thought they were in 'Valhalla' with a "captive
audience" (thier words, not mine). I won that fight and they haven't been
back because they know they'll lose every round.

Callous, tactless, and rude posting are not welcome here. Lou, you are one
of the reasons I retired from listownership.  After my second heart attack
I had the options of killing the list, finding a new listowner, or
deleting you from the list.  I disliked many of your posts but I was just
too tired to deal with the mess you were making of this list.  You further
astounded me with your comments to H-Net.

Everything posted to this list is archived and will still be available to
the general  public via the various sites where it is stored for an
unknowable amount of time.  When posting to this group think about the
reaction people will have to what you put here, 10, 20, or 50 years from
now.  You can look like a fool to those future viewers, or you can act
like a rational person.

Being a member of this list is a priveledge, not a right, and it can
be revoked for cause.  That is the bottom line to this, a line that
seldom has to be pointed out to most people.

Larry J

JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Co-Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU (Historical docs)
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 3 Sep 1994 07:42:28 -0700
From:    John Davis <jbd@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 04-SEP-1944

On 04-SEP-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The 11th Armoured Division (XXX Corps, British 2nd Army)
enters Antwerp. The harbour, the biggest on the North Sea, is intact; but the
Germans still control the Scheldt estuary. In southern France, the US VI Corps
and French II Corps, continue to advance north, towards Besancon and Dijon.
The Allies also liberate Lille, Louvaine, Malines and Etaples.

Eastern Front - A cease-fire agreed upon between Russia and Finland comes into
effect. The Germans begin to pull out of Finland by land and by sea. The bulk
of their force will go to Norway. In Rumania, the Russians take Brasov and
Senaia.

Italian Front - The British V Corps advances towards the hills of Gemmano and
Coriano.

Palau Islands - Units of the III Amphibious Corps of the US Marines leave the
Solomons for the invasion of the Palau Islands, located between the Caroline
Islands and the Philippines.

Burma - The British XV Corps is directed to engage the Japanese in the Arakan
sector. In the XXXIII Corps sector, the 11th East African Division occupies
Sittaung without oppostion and sends several units forward to Kalemyo.

The Homefront
-------------
War Prisoners In US - The Army says that there were 243,848 war prisoners in
the US on Sept. 1, including 192,846 Germans, 50,272 Italians, and 730
Japanese.

Roosevelt Lead Increases - Fortune reports that President Roosevelt's lead has
increased to 54.6% against 40.9% for Governor Dewey in its political poll.

Nelson Wins At Nashville - Byron Nelson has won the $10,000 Nashville golf
tournament with a score of 269.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  jbd@netcom.com
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 3 Sep 1994 14:57:02 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: GEN: ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

  September 3, 1994
  FOR BEN FRANK
  Thank you for the suggestion that I write an autobiography.  I agree that
fate has put me in some interesting places at interesting times.  However,
having seen what has happened to State Department colleagues who took that
route, I am not inclined in that direction.  Instead, I have been putting
my experiences on paper and tape at various times.
  In the past ten years, I have contributed over seventy articles to the
International Herald Tribune, some of which have concerned my experiences with
Berlin and military matters.  I also published myself in the 1960s a book about
the Berlin crisis, which most authors of books on the Wall have drawn on, along
with interviews with me.  The National Security Archives project on the
Berlin crisis put this book on microfiche, along with other of my documents.
  There is also a three hour interview with me on nuclear matters and Berlin
in a transcript published the the Nuclear History Program of the Center for
International Studies of the University of Maryland.
  As for WWII, as members of this list know, I published last year a book on my
experiences under the title LETTERS HOME: A WAR MEMOIR.  This is now sold out
but is available on disk.  (I hope soon to have news as to how this can be
obtained easily and cheaply from a US distributor.)
  Charles Guggenheim of Guggenheim Productions interviewed me for over an
hour in connection with his film on D-Day for the Eisenhower Center in New
Orleans, which was broadcast on PBS.  This interview is on tape and presumably
available from the Eisenhower Center or from Guggenheim.
  As other messages indicate, I am now working on a book containing my father's
writings about WWI and WWII.  This will be a limited edition for the family.
  When this is done, I am planning to republish my Berlin crisis book in some
form or other.
  And so on for as long as I am able.
  One thing is clear.  Although I have had a half dozen books published by
regular publishers, I do not propose again to go through the discouraging
process of finding one for something I want to publish.  I will publish it
myself.  If someone then wants to offer to republish it, I will consider it.
  Having said all this, Ben, I appreciate your suggestion.  I go into so
much detail in case anyone wants to pursue any of these items.
  FOR MIKE YAKLICH
  I am familiar with Norges Krig.  Unfortunately, there are a great many books
about the war in Norway and Norway's role in the larger war which are only in
Norwegian.  This is one of them.  Pity.
  FOR HENRY SIROTIN
  The other story about the brigade sent to Berlin by JFK after the division of
the city has two aspects.
  The decision was taken at a White House meeting without any consideration
being given to what the brigade commander would do if the Russians tried to stop
him.  The JCS issued orders which would have led to a fire fight if this had
happened.  When this was discovered in State and the White House, people were
nervous but decided to take their chances.  Luckily, Khruschev did not want a
fight on the autobahn, having got away with what he wanted in Berlin.  (Most
people and historians are unaware that we were running such a risk.)
  There was not time to instruct the convoy commander about the fine points of
our quarrels with the Soviets about procedures.  As a result, he complied with
an order to have his men dismount to be counted.  This precedent led in 1973 to
what became known as the tailgate crisis, when we found ourselves confronting
the Soviets once again over access to Berlin.  (This incident had been largely
lost to history, but I describe it in more detail in by book on Berlin.)
  I believe various IHT articles on Berlin etc. are available on BYRD, but
I am not sure which or how to identify them.
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 3 Sep 1994 06:54:59 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: GEN: INFORMATION ON VET PUBLICATION?

John Ausland...
                        EX-CBI ROUNDUP
                        Box 2665,
                        La Habra, CA 90631

Regards -- Sidney.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 3 Sep 1994 06:14:34 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: 50TH: SOVIET TROOPS WITHDRAW FROM EAST GERMANY

Brad Coon...
        "Soviet troops 'liberated' Berlin in 1944..."
Conquored, yes -- but *liberated* ?? From who?
:-)

--

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 3 Sep 1994 08:51:02 -0400
From:    Warren Thompson <THOMPSON@ACAD.LVC.EDU>
Subject: HIST: German war crimes

As I understand it, such things as the euthanasia program (Aktion T4), the
medical experiments in the camps, and the Final Solution itself were
"legal" under the Nazi legal system, even though there may not have been
a specific law on the books for any one of these events. E.g., Hitler himself
ordered Aktion T4, and it was implemented. Some government officials
wanted a law for it, but as far as I know none was ever put into place.
A Fuehrer-befehl [Fuehrer-decree] did have the force of law ever since the
Enabling Act was enforced after the Reichstag fire of early 1933.

Hope this helps.

-- Warren Thompson
LEBANON VALLEY COLLEGE
Annville PA 17003

thompson@acad.lvc.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 3 Sep 1994 04:31:51 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 09-03-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
09/03 Sun. Naval task group (Rear Adm. A. E. Smith) consisting
           of 1 carrier, 3 cruisers, and 3 destroyers strikes
           enemy positions on Wake Island.
            United States naval vessel damaged:
             Submarine chaser SC-535, by storm, Southern France
              area,
              43 d. 17'N., 06 d. 38'B.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 3 Sep 1994 00:01:19 -0500
From:    Bill Smith <bismith@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: War Plans

Regarding anybody's Pacific Theater war plans, remember we had war plans
to invade Canada, Mexico, etc.  I'd bet a dollar to a doughnut we have
war plans today to take on Britain, France, fill-in-the-blank.  Creating
war plans is simply what the modern military war college bureaucracy does
for a living.  The very existance of war plans is no justification for
war guilt.  Follow that line of reasoning.  The U.S. obviously had war
plans against Japan (Orange, and others).  Japan attacks the U.S. at
Pearl to kick things off.  Suppose the U.S., not Japan, surrenders.  Then
do U.S. generals stand trial as war criminals because we had a war plan?

Actually, U.S. politicians would for the internment.  I say that not to
provoke reaction.  It is the victor who sets the parameters of postwar
trials.  It is morally ludicrous to compare the U.S. internment policy to
that of the Nazi/Jewish question or to the more noted atrocities of the
Japanese POW camps.  (i.e. -- these people lost their material
lives, businesses, money, years of prosperity, but most did not
literally -- and deliberately -- lose their lives in the camps as the
Jews.)  However, consider for a moment the Japanese POV --
as a victor they would have lashed out at a ethnically motivated "crime"
committed by their vanquished enemy.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 3 Sep 1994 00:31:49 EST
From:    "CARL WERNKE (TCWERNC@VCCSCENT)" <TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Comments re continuation of MONTANA class BBs

 To : Multiple recipients of list WWII-L(WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU)


 (Roger) Brad Coon message  Fri, 2 Sep 1994 08:00:54 EST stated:
 |> Anyone out there who knows exactly the composition of Deyo's BB force ?

 Admiral Olendorf, injured and hospitalized shortly after reaching Ulithi was
 replaced by RADM Deyo, who broke his flag in the TENNESSEE on 15 March.
 Task Force 54, the gunfire force was underway for the Ryukyus. As Kerama
 Retto, a small cluster of islands near Okinawa was taken for use as an
 advanced base, the battleships arrived off the main island. With TENNESSEE
 were COLORADO, MARYLAND, WEST VIRGINIA, NEW MEXICO, and IDAHO , as well as
 NEVADA, NEW YORK, TEXAS,  and the ARKANSAS (BB-33), first commissioned in
 1912 and still operating with TF 54; she was the only battleship in the
 fleet still armed with 12-inch guns. With the capital ships came 10 cruisers,
 32 destroyer and destroyer escorts.

 Information obtained from: jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Larry and Kim Jewell)
 Message-Id: (9405131938.AA2727@mace.cc.purdue.edu)

 Carl Wernke
 TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 3 Sep 1994 00:18:30 -0400
From:    jmeierho@MAIL.NYSED.GOV
Subject: Re: [WEAP] aircraft used to ram other aircraft thread...

The Russians made significant use of ramming as tactic in air combat. The
used the term TARAN to denote this form of attack.

There is an extended discussion of the tactic on  p 27-30 in Von Hardesty's _
Red Phoenix_.   The TARAN is something of a tradition for the Russians,
having been used against an Austrian aircraft at the beginning of WWI and
against the Finns in 1939-40.  The use of the tactic against the Germans began
on day one of the German attack on Russia when 8 pilots used ramming.  "In
the first two years, many VVS pilots scored multiple victories by ramming.  Lt
Boris Kobzan of the 184th Fighter Air Regiment became the top-scoring flying
in this demanding maneuver during the war, with four successful ramming
assaults....  A total of more that 200 ramming attacks were made on the
Luftwaffe during the war."

Hardesty writes, "Ramming differed from kamikaze attacks employed by the
Japanese..., although both reflected a blend of patriotism and desperation.
For the Soviets, the tactic stemmed strictly from practical considerations.  It
was used at decisive moments, when there was no hope of knocking down an
enemy aircraft by other means.... Soviet commanders did not issue orders for
pilots to ram.  Instead, the pilots exercised their own discretion, employing the
technique when they felt it was necessary."  Thus, "it never was merely a
brutal suicidal plunge at an enemy plane.  For the Soviets is was a blend of
flying skill and daring -- always dangerous, but worthy of effort if one's
ammunition was expended in the heat of battle."

Carl-Fredrik Geust, in his _Red Stars: Soviet Air Force in World War Two_,
comes up with a higher number of Taran attacks and victories.  "In the 1980's
attempts were made in the Soviet Union to produce exact records and
statistics on wartime 'taran' victories.  It is probable that these victories amount
to more that 500."  In addition to Boris Kobzan, mentioned by Hardesty,
"Alexsandr Hlobystov (147 IAP) who fought in the Murmansk area claimed
three 'tarans' and altogether 18 pilots claimed at least two 'tarans'".

Geust also gives a case by case accounting of 11 attacks by Soviets pilots on
Finnish planes, including one instance from the Russo-Finish War (Feb 1940).
Of the 11 cases, the Soviet pilot was killed in 6 of the cases.

In Gene Gurney's _The War in the Air_  (p 127), There drawings from Soviet
sources that illustrate three approaches to ramming:

Direct ramming, with the drawing showing I-16 impacting a Ju 88 in the area
of the crew compartment.  Hardesty observed that this method "required more
courage than artistry."  It was also the most dangerous.

A glancing blow using the wing of the attacking aircraft to hit the target
aircraft on the wing or the rudder.

Using the attacking aircraft propeller to damage / disable the target's elevator
or rudder.  According the Hardesty, this approach required the most skill on
the part of the attacking pilot, but offered the best chances for survival.


The Gurney book also includes a photo of one Sgt Chumbarev and his Yak 1
after he had downed an Fw 189 thru ramming.  The propeller is NOT in very
good shape.

John Meierhoffer                jmeierho@mail.nysed.gov
Albany New York         518 486 2390 (work)   283 4761 (home)

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 4 Sep 1994 12:28:19 -0400
From:    tesser louis j <ljtess@MAIL.WM.EDU>
Subject: Re: Nuremburg war trials

> > The end result would have been the same, but it wouldn't have
created any > > martyrs. Just my opinion, of course.
>
>     I agree with that. In fact, I think the Allies were too lenient
> on some such as Speer, and too harsh on others, such as Admiral
> Doenitz. I think German courts would have been tougher, reference,
> Fritsche, Papen, and Schacht who were acquitte at Nuremberg but spent
> years in jail as a result of being tried in German de-
> Nazification courts. Their toughness may have been politically
> motivated, but, as you say, the end result would have been the same.
>
>     Thanks, again, David.
>
>     Terry
>


    It seems to me that the trials of Nazis were properly in the
hands of the Allies.  While German law might coincidentally have
outlawed the activities of the Nazis, the fact that the "world
community" sat in judgement holds some significance apart from simply
the victors deciding who was wrong.  The Allies were recognizing that
there are some "universal" human rights, and some acts which no one
should ever tolerate - independent of the laws of any particluar
country.  The world community was rejecting absolute moral relativism -
the horror of the holocaust forcing everyone to concede that there
must be some very basic human rights.
    The crimes of the Nazis were not just "German" crimes.  They were
international both in fact, and in their human rights implications.
While I agree that the Allies should have been as tough as German law
would have been, I also think that it was properly their place to sit
in judgement.

--Tony Michaels

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 4 Sep 1994 13:46:56 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: 50TH: POSTSCRIPT TO EXERCISE TIGER

John wrote,...

>JCA COMMENT: It is clear from this letter and interviews which were on British
>TV during the anniversary of Exercise Tiger that a lot of people were sworn to
>secrecy.  One can only speculate on why this was...

The number of people who were given the gag order seems indicative of the
level from which the order came. It could have come from Moon himself,
with support from above, or it might have come from higher up, from COSSAC
(cross-channel invasion planning staff) or the Combined Chiefs.

>                                             ... It was best to keep this a
>secret for awhile, but why for all time?  I suspect this was because of the
>failure of the naval authorities to provide proper protection for the convoy
>and because of the communications foul up but have no way of proving it.

Certainly embarassment could have squelched the news, provable or not, but
probably a number of reasons exist, including not wanting to "tip their hand"
concerning timing and/or location, and what effective defenses might be
used (increased patrol boat activity). The importance of the secrecy would
(no doubt in my mind) have evolved through many exchanges into "for all
time".

Interesting,... -Al

Alan G. Wild
Admin. Computing
University of Rhode Island
Kingston, R.I.  02881

I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 4 Sep 1994 17:46:25 -0400
From:    Jack Petrilli <jack@THE-WIRE.COM>
Subject: Re: German War Crime Trials

>On Fri, 2 Sep 1994, GEORGE BAUER wrote:
>
>> I am no authority, but I thought that most of what Nazis wer doing in Germany
>> in WWII was within the law.
>>
>> Perhaps someone can give some specifics here.

I'm in no way an expert on this period, but my understanding is that the
Nazis attempted to hide what they were doing from the German public. Why
would they attempt to hide something which they considered moral and legal?
Obviously they knew they were doing something fundamentally wrong.

- Jack

(Living in Mississauga but a Habs fan to the end)

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 4 Sep 1994 19:27:45 EDT
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <sparks@ALPHA.CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: Airshow report

I've just returned from the Aviation Heritage airshow at Clark
county, Indiana.  Here's a brief, certainly incomplete, list of
of the aircraft on display.

An awe-inspiring 19 P-51D/K Mustangs
Three Corsairs; an F4U-1, an FG-1, and an F4U-4
Some of the Tora! Tora! Tora! air group (Kates and Zekes only)
The four Stearmans of the Red Baron Pizza Squadron
At least a dozen T-6 or SNJ Texans
Almost as many T-34 Mentors
A smattering of T-28 Trojans
Airshow host Charles Osbourn's P-47 Thunderbolt "Big Ass Bird II"
A P-38J Lightning - dressed as McDonald's "Putt Putt Maru"
A P-40M Warhawk in an RAF (or perhaps RAAF) scheme
The CAF's B-29, "Fifi"
A B-17G painted as the 303rd BG's "Thunderbird"
A PV-2 Harpoon named "Hot Stuff"
A B-25J Mitchell from Missouri
The CAF's C-46 Commando, freshly repaired after storm damage

Complementing the Flying Fortress was what appeared to be at least
one full aircrew and some ground crew re-enactors, plus several WAFs.
Tim Scherrer, I took several photos of them, if you want copies.

Aces Chuck Yeager, Robin Olds, "Pete" Peterson, "Bud" Anderson, and
Francis "Gabby" Gabreski were on hand, signing autographs, etc.

Flying demonstrations by an F-15, F-16, KC-135, and A-10.  (I'd
never seen anyone slow roll a Warthog before!)

One complaint - the voiceover for the some of the segments.
I take exception to really awful factual errors made in the name
of showmanship.  For instance, when the three Corsairs were
aloft with three of the T-6 Zekes, the announcer began a quite
odd description of the Battle of the Coral Sea and Battle of
Midway, placing the Corsairs in the middle of both battles.  I'm
sorry to sound off about what sounds like a trivial matter, but
if you're going to tell a story, tell it right.  Make the voice-
over fit the aircraft on hand, instead of working the aircraft in
willy nilly.  Of course there were the usual ground-based explosions
and smoke, which doesn't do much for me either.

My vote for the best sounding aircraft there - the P-38J Lightning.
It was the first time I'd seen one in the air, and I was quite
taken by the sound.  I'd heard the beautiful stacatto beat of
the P-51s' Merlins, and the wonderful throaty sound of the P-47 and
Corsairs' R-2800s, but the P-38's Allisons were the *smoothest*
sound going.  Of course, the F-15 and F-16 were bar none the
LOUDEST things aloft...

Dennis E. Sparks
sparks@alpha.caer.uky.edu
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 4 Sep 1994 21:22:46 EDT
From:    John Sloan <JohnS426@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: PLEASE RE...

Lou,
I recommend you do it the other way around - instead of posting something you
know will be inflamatory and awaiting email to your address - why not post
your message to the individuals you want to reach at their email address
instead of the entire list? I am posting this to the list specifically so
others may comment on this approach.
best wishes
john sloan
johns426@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 4 Sep 1994 21:33:47 EDT
From:    John Sloan <JohnS426@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Airshow report

HI all,
Thanks to Dennis for that fine report on the air show. WOW. It was much
larger than the one I saw in Frederick MD the previous weekend.   My question
to Dennis and others in the airshow game
When I was at the Russian aviation museum at Monino last year, I met with the
director  a long while and hediscussed his ideas for WWII commemoration
events etc in 95. He urged me to find a way to get American air show folks -
just the type of people who put on these air shows - to bring some WWII
aircraft to Russia for a joint exhibition and event with their WWII aircraft.
Seems to me it would be nearly impossible to do, but it is worth asking
about.
Also, Col Tolkov says that between his museum restoration crew and the
Yakolyev factory they can refurbish - (make new?) YAK aircraft of WWII
vintage for sale to collectors.  Not being in this field, I have no
idea if there would be interest in anyone buying such aircraft.
What does anyone think?

best wishes
john sloan
johns426@aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 4 Sep 1994 21:35:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 5 SEP 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
TUESDAY, 5 SEPTEMBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  Beaufighter, Bristol
  Bf 109, Messerschmitt
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  F-6, North American Mustang
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  P-61, Northrop Black Widow

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): 8 B-25s pound targets at Indaw, Burma, 21
B-24s fly fuel to Kunming, China and numerous other cargo and troop carrier
sorties are flown to various CBI terminals.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 25 B-25s pounding Kiyang and
Hengyang cause considerable damage in both towns and at the Hengyang
Airfield; 6 others attack trucks and other targets of opportunity at the
Siangtan ferry crossing, near Hengyang and Kiyang, in the Lingling and Yoyang
areas, and at Samshui; 2 more B-25s bomb Kowloon shipyards; 26 P-40s blast
concentrations of river junks, troops and horses in the Kiyang-Wangyang area;
and other fighter-bombers, operating individually or in flights of 2-10
aircraft, hit a variety of targets of opportunity throughout the Hengyang,
Kiyang, Yungfengshih, and Lishui area.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 3 missions are flown:
  Mission 605: 739 bombers and 315 fighters are dispatched to SE Germany; 6
bombers are lost; during the missions, a P-51 shoots down a Swiss Bf 109 near
Dubendorf.
  1. 203 of 218 B-17s attack a Stuttgart aero engine plant and targets of
opportunity (4); 2 B-17s are lost and 109 damaged; 1 airman is KIA, 5 WIA and
18 MIA. Escort is provided by 147 of 160 P-51s; they claim 19-0-0 aircraft in
the air and 14-0-27 on the ground; 2 P-51s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair
and 4 damaged; 2 pilots are MIA.
  2. 277 of 303 B-17s hit a Ludwigshafen synthetic oil plant and target of
opportunity (1); 2 B-17s are lost and 163 damaged; 2 airmen are KIA, 11 WIA
and 18 MIA. Escort is provided by 155 P-51s; 1 P-51 is lost (pilot MIA) and 2
damaged.
  3. 183 of 218 B-24s hit Karlsruhe marshalling yard and targets of
opportunity (2); 2 B-24s are lost, 4 damaged beyond repair and 78 damaged; 22
airmen are MIA.
  Mission 606: 143 of 143 B-17s make a visual attack on enemy positions in
the Brest, France area; 2 B-17s are lost and 1 damaged; 18 airmen are MIA.
Escort is provided by 21 of 22 P-51s without loss.
  Mission 608: 7 of 8 B-17s drop leaflets in Belgium, the Netherlands and
Germany during the night.
  46 B-24s and 2 C-47s fly CARPETBAGGER missions during the night; 1 B-24 is
lost.
  VIII Fighter Command fighter-bomber missions:
  1. 48 P-38s and 167 P-47s attack transportation targets in W Germany and
claim 0-0-2 aircraft in the air and 62-0-30 on the ground; 4 P-47s are lost
(pilots MIA), 2 damaged beyond repair and 10 damaged.
  2. 67 P-38s and P-47s attack 3 airfields in the Hanau/Giessen, Germany
area and claim 2-0-0 aircraft in the air and 66-0-28 on the ground; 1 P-38
and 3 P-47s are lost (pilots are MIA), 1 P-47 damaged beyond repair and 1
P-38 and 3 P-47s damaged.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, 300+ B-26s and A-20s bomb
strongpoints in the Brest area and a coastal battery at Pointe du Grand
Gouin, fighters hit gun positions and other military targets in the Brest
area and fly cover for 6 armored and infantry divisions; the 10th and 81st
Fighter Squadrons, 50th Fighter Group, move from Meautis to Orly with P-47s;
the 22d Fighter Squadron, 36th Fighter Group, moves from Brucheville to Le
Mans with P-47s; and the 394th Fighter Squadron, 367th Fighter Group, moves
from Cricqueville to Peray with P-38s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 430+ B-17s and B-24s, with
fighter escort, attack communications targets in Hungary and N Italy to
impede the withdrawal from the lower Balkans and to disrupt railroad
communications in N Italy; targets hit are 2 railroad bridges at Budapest and
1 each at Szolnok and Szob, Hungary and a railroad bridge at Ferrara, Italy.
B-24s dispatched to Yugoslavia cannot bomb the target because of total cloud
cover.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium bombers again
strike, with excellent results, road and rail bridges in the Po Valley while
fighter-bombers blast rail lines and rolling stock S of the river; A-20s hit
the Milan and Genoa areas during the night of 4/5 Sep and attack ammunition
stores during the day; fighters support the limited ground force advance in
preparation for a major assault on the Gothic Line. In France, fighters fly
sweeps through the Rhone Valley; the 23d Photographic Reconnaissance
Squadron, 5th Photographic Reconnaissance Group [attached to 3d Photographic
Group (Reconnaissance)] moves from Borgo, Corsica to Valence with F-5s (the
squadron is operating from Le Luc); the 84th and 86th Bombardment Squadrons
(Light), 47th Bombardment Group (Light), move from Poretta Airfield, Corsica
to Salon with A-20s; the 111th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron, XII Tactical
Air Command, moves from St Raphael to Valence with F-6s; and the 314th
Fighter Squadron, 324th Fighter Group, moves from Istres to Amberieu with
P-47s. The 414th Night Fighter Squadron, 63d Fighter Wing, moves from
Alghero, Sardinia to Borgo, Corsica with Beaufighters.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 20 Saipan Island-based B-24s bomb Iwo Jima
Island and 2 others on armed reconnaissance hit Marcus and Yap Islands. P-47s
make strafing and rocket attacks on AA positions on Pagan Island. Gilbert
Islands-based B-25s attack Nauru and Ponape Islands.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: B-24s hit the
airfield on Peleliu Island, Palau Islands.  Small-scale B-24 strikes hit
Kendari Airfield on Celebes Island while fighter-bombers attack Galela and
nearby villages on Halmahera Island, Moluccas Islands. Almost 60 B-24s blast
Langoan Airfield on Celebes Island while a sizeable B-25 force bombs Djailolo
Airfield, several villages, and Kaoe AA positions on Halmahera Island. In New
Guinea, fighter-bombers hit Soepiori Peninsula villages and Waren and Moemi
Airfields; the 405th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 38th Bombardment Group
(Medium), moves from Nadzab to Biak Island with B-25s; and the 547th Night
Fighter Squadron, Fifth Air Force, arrives at Oro Bay from the US with P-38s
and P-61s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

05/0137Z SEP

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 4 Sep 1994 20:50:59 PDT
From:    Jim Brady <brady@ONRAMP.NET>
Subject: FW: Re: ADMIN: PLEASE RE...

---------------Original Message---------------
Lou,
I recommend you do it the other way around - instead of posting something you
know will be inflamatory and awaiting email to your address - why not post
your message to the individuals you want to reach at their email address
instead of the entire list? I am posting this to the list specifically so
others may comment on this approach.
best wishes
john sloan
johns426@aol.com


----------End of Original Message----------
John,
I would like WWII-L to continue at the high standard of content and information
and civil nature it has exemplified for so long now. I would hate to see any
valuable member of our community provoke his removal from our discussion by
insisting to register political opinions in this forum. And I do think the rule is good.

Check out almost any discussion going, and almost universally, when you see
politics interjected, the entire discussion goes down in flames. No matter what
end of the meter you register on, I believe we all know you aren't going to sway
someone to another ideology; you're just going to make a lot of noise. So why
bother, when there's so much good info/sources/ideas/stories to share?

And in the vein of what we're here for,  does anybody have a line on any more info
on "the Beautiful Betsey"?(I'm flying on questionable memory chips on name
recall). That's the B-24 found wrecked last weekend in Australia. An author
quoted by the DOD devoted a chapter of a book to the ill-fated flight and
subsequent mystery -- anybody have the title? Any email contact with anyone
involved in the finding of the wreck or history of the plane & crew?

Thanks awaits you...

-- Jim Brady (brady@onramp.net)

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 4 Sep 1994 21:17:17 PDT
From:    Jim Brady <brady@ONRAMP.NET>
Subject: Re: ex-ADMIN: Inflamatory postings.

---------------Original Message---------------
"Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU> writes (in part)

----------End of Original Message----------
Larry,

  Thank you so much for this sincere and searing reply to Lou. I appreciate what
it means for you all the more, knowing that your health had caused you to hand it
off. I salute your efforts for creating this sanctuary. I was on only 6 months or so
before you retired. If you hadn't built it, fought to keep it pure, and put it in the
hands of someone worthy, i would never have enjoyed and been enriched by this
truly monumental gathering of participants, witnesses and historians to the
turning point of our modern times.

I have gotten to spread the lessons, being a newspaper editor and writer. I have
found sources here, become aware of stories here, schooled my reporters on
significant occaisions approaching and how to treat them. We publish in an area
rich in WWII vets, and I know they were wowed to see treatment go beyond the
superficial.

Anyway, I wanted to say thanks especially because, in this living room, having
come up on some of Lou's posts unawares, I felt personally slapped in the face.
I'm a younger man, my generation was the 60s generation he reviles. I can't help
being born when I was born, and I am in fact proud of it. Obviously, most sensible
people agree individuals should be judged on their character, not their
demographics. All this is to say, you carry a lot more weight in putting a stop to
this. I hope Joe has his finger on the button, ready to pounce after one more
abuse. Joe told me, when I complained, that Lou agreed to tone down, but was
not contrite. I hope it doesn't go on & on...

My thanks,

Jim Brady

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 4 Sep 1994 23:21:39 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: ex-ADMIN: Inflamatory postings.

Jim wrote,...
>... I hope it doesn't go on & on...
>
>My thanks,
>
>Jim Brady

I hate to have to write this to the topic, but I do in hopes that better
sense will prevail and this dead thread of a dirge will stop. My proposal:
If it really bugs you,... tell your wife, and leave us out of it.

Hopefully, Al

Alan G. Wild
Admin. Computing
University of Rhode Island
Kingston, R.I.  02881

I am the NRA.

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 2 Sep 1994 to 4 Sep 1994
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 23 messages totalling 652 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. ADMIN: PLEASE RE...
  2. INF: 50 Years Ago - 06-SEP-1944
  3. WEAP: Kamikaze torpedoes (4)
  4. Airshow report
  5. Aerial Ops, Last Day of War
  6. 12"-gunned ARKANSAS
  7. 50TH: COMMEMORATION OF US PLANE CRASH IN NORWAY
  8. 50TH: ROBERT CAPA-GOOD AND BAD LUCK (2)
  9. The other way around?
 10. ex-ADMIN: Inflamatory postings.
 11. Response to Larry
 12. More about Kaiten suicide subs
 13. Robert Capa
 14. MEDIA: SMITHSONIAN
 15. NEWBORN AIRBORNE! (2)
 16. U.S. "WAR PLANS" F
 17. [INF] USAAF 6 SEP 44
 18. Aircraft ranges

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 5 Sep 1994 01:27:52 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <jimadams@UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: PLEASE RE...

Great Idea.

****************************************************************************
Jim Adams                       jimadams@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.edu
****************************************************************************

On Sun, 4 Sep 1994, John Sloan wrote:

> Lou,
> I recommend you do it the other way around - instead of posting something you
> know will be inflamatory and awaiting email to your address - why not post
> your message to the individuals you want to reach at their email address
> instead of the entire list? I am posting this to the list specifically so
> others may comment on this approach.
> best wishes
> john sloan
> johns426@aol.com
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 5 Sep 1994 06:50:30 -0700
From:    John Davis <jbd@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 06-SEP-1944

On 06-SEP-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - Units of the 3rd Army cross the Moselle. The VII Corps pushes
on towards Liege. In southern France, the French II Corps enters
Chalons-sur-Saone. The US VI Corps is moving rapidly towards Besancon.

Eastern Front - The 3rd Ukraine Front reaches the Rumanian-Yugoslav frontier
at Turnu Severin. There they make contact with Tito's partisans. The loss of
the Rumanian oilfields has serious consequences for Germany. Any attempt to
hold the Carpathian-Hungarian line must now fail for the lack of fuel,
manpower and equipment.

Italian Front - The British V Corps prepares a large scale offense to capture
Cariano. The Canadian I Corps reaches the river Marano.

Palau Islands - Aircraft from Vice-Admiral Marc Mitscher's fast carrier
squadron carry out attacks against the Japanese airfields and other
installations in the Palau Islands and in Yap and Ulithi Islands in the
western Carolines. The attacks are to continue for three days, causing
tremendous damage.

The Homefront
-------------
Army Annouces Demobilization - The Army has announced that it will be able to
demobilize 1,000,000 men when the war in Germany is over.

Ration Points Changed - The OPA has removed 17 different processed food items
from ration lists including all fruit spreads, canned asparagus, lima beans,
corn, peas and all soups and baby foods.

Army Helicopter School - The Army has established the first military
helicopter training school at Freeman Field, Ind.

Britain Homefront
-----------------
The Minister for Home Security, Herbert Morrison relaxes blackout and other
civil defense duties. The War Office ends compulsory training and drills for
Home Guard units.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  jbd@netcom.com
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 5 Sep 1994 06:57:53 -0700
From:    John Davis <jbd@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: WEAP: Kamikaze torpedoes

I was watching the movie on TV last night about the Indianapolis. They
mentioned that the Japanese were using a torpedo called the Keintin
(probably mispelled) torpedo, that was a human driven kamikaze torpedo. I
had never heard of such a thing. Were these things for real? Was any ship
ever sunk with one? Where did the driver sit? How long could he be in one
before he ran out of air? Was this just made up for the movie??

------------
John Davis    jbd@netcom.com
Cary, N.C.
------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 5 Sep 1994 09:27:16 CDT
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Airshow report

The Louisville airshow was a WWIIAPS event, so it was probably our group
there---I've been out of pocket lately with the WWIIAPS and my next
event planned is the 91st Bomb Group reunion in Oklahoma City, OK 24-25
Sept.

The WWIIHRS National Battle has been set for Fremont, NE the weekend of
7-8-9 October.

If anyone is interested in additional details, please contact me.  TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 5 Sep 1994 08:38:06 -0700
From:    "Office TH325, Extension 3566" <RIEGSECKER@UPS.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Kamikaze torpedoes

>From:         John Davis <jbd@NETCOM.COM>
>Subject:      WEAP: Kamikaze torpedoes
>
>I was watching the movie on TV last night about the Indianapolis. They
>mentioned that the Japanese were using a torpedo called the Keintin
>(probably mispelled) torpedo, that was a human driven kamikaze torpedo. I
>had never heard of such a thing. Were these things for real? Was any ship
>ever sunk with one? Where did the driver sit? How long could he be in one
>before he ran out of air? Was this just made up for the movie??
>
>------------
>John Davis    jbd@netcom.com
>Cary, N.C.
>------------

The term is Kaiten.  This information is from the book "Suicide Squads:,
by Richard O'neill and deals with the Japanese, Italian, German, and
British.

The submarine, I-58, that sank Indianaoplis was carrying kaiten, but
none were used in the attack.  She was sunk by 6 ordinary torpedoes.
Kaitens were based on a Long Lance Type 93 torpedo, slightly lengthened to
hold a pilot and small conning tower.  It had a range of about 85,300 yds at
12 kt, or 25,000 yds at 30 kt.   The drawing in the book shows the pilot
about midship.  It was evidently very difficult to keep them at their
desired depth and many dove into the bottem and stuck in the mud.  About
300 were built.

Four fleet submarines and four transport submarines were lost with all
hands during kaiten missions.  Of some 150 kaiten attacks, only 7 or 8
hit, sinking a destroyer-escort, a fleet oiler, and perhaps an infantry
landing craft.  They damaged a destroyer-escort and 4 transports.
The DE that was lost was Underhill.  It may have rammed the kaiten
thinking it was a midget submarine.

John Riegsecker
Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
University of Puget Sound

riegsecker@ups.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 5 Sep 1994 12:58:12 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Kamikaze torpedoes

There is a chilling chapter in *Japan at War* by the Cooks (interviews
with survivors) about the suicide submarines. I'll summarize it if anyone
is interested and can't get the book at the library.

            - Dan      <dan.ford@unh.edu>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 5 Sep 1994 13:01:33 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>
Subject: Aerial Ops, Last Day of War

For a magazine article about the last day of WWII, I want to talk
to people who remember the "thousand-plane raid" mounted against
the Japanese home islands on August 14-15, 1945. The overnight
raid was a USAAF operation, but the Navy flew missions on the
morning of the 15th. (Some of these were canceled even as the
planes were taking off, and I think that some carrier fighters
were in combat against Japanese aircraft after the surrender went
into effect.)

In the air or on the ground, civilian or military, American or
Japanese, wherever located--if you had any connection with aerial
operations on the last day of the war, or if you know somebody
who did, I'd like to hear from you.

Leads to published or archival material would also be welcome.
This was the biggest raid of the Pacific War, but I have read
almost nothing about it, sandwiched as it was between the
beginning of the atomic age and the end of the Japanese Empire.

Here are all the possible ways of reaching me:

Daniel Ford
433 Bay Road
Durham NH 03824
voice & fax: +1-603-868-5850
dan.ford@unh.edu
Eastern Daylight Time: GMT -0400

Or post to the List.

Thanks - Dan

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 5 Sep 1994 12:53:07 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: 12"-gunned ARKANSAS

Carl,

     I assume ARKANSAS was kept in service (presumably at
some risk to her crew) to use up the remainder/surplus of
12" shells.  I wonder how many were duds.

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 01:57:57 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: 50TH: COMMEMORATION OF US PLANE CRASH IN NORWAY

  September 5, 1994
  Someone asked about an American bomber that crashed during WWII in Norway.
The following item appeared in the Oslo daily Aftenposten today: "On Saturday,
the American ambassador Thomas A. Loftus and Seljord's mayor John Kleivstaul
unveiled a monument to 11 American flyers killed in a plane crash September 9,
1944."
  Sorry, that was all it said.  Seljord is a small town in Telemark, west of
Oslo.
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 5 Sep 1994 12:59:33 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: 50TH: ROBERT CAPA-GOOD AND BAD LUCK

John,

     Was that film destroyed after Normandy Robert Capa's or
Frank Capra's?

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 5 Sep 1994 13:11:48 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: The other way around?

Thanks for the suggestion, John, -- seriously -- but my basic
  point remains that we should be able to post something
  important/relevant to the list even if *somebody* considers
  it "inflammatory."  (You, too!  :-)  )

I was intrigued that my critics back-channeled Joe -- the list-
  owner -- and that he went ahead and back-channeled me.

Does this mean that when someone posts something a certain
  group labels as "inflammatory," they can reliably back-channel
  our fearless leader and have it/him stifled?  Hmmmm.  Maybe
  this could work *both* ways?  :-)

For the record, I think/know Joe is doing an excellent job, and
  I am grateful to him (too) for picking it up when Larry had to
  retire (from the bull-pit).  It's nothing personal:  it's
  principle.

This is an interesting and important discussion, itself.

Lou

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 5 Sep 1994 13:18:42 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <BAUER@VAX1.ROCKHURST.EDU>
Subject: Re: ex-ADMIN: Inflamatory postings.

I am terribly disturbed with this censorship/free speech discussion.

And have terribly mixed feeelings.

I have great respect for the people on this list.  I have learned a great
deal from them, and hope to continue in the future.  They are a group of
bright an very well informed people.

But I am terribly disturbed by such statements as "you can say what you
please, you just can't say it here."  I have a lot more to say, but
will refrain because some PC person or the censor might take offense.


  =========================================================================
  | DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
  |                                  | Computers in Business & Education. |
  | Recently returned from my second | Education:  Curriculum development.|
  |   extended stay in Prague.       |    International Education, TEFL.  |
  | Working on second book about     | Central Europe:  Post revolution   |
  |   Prague and new Czech Republic  |    economic, social, political     |
  |   and a book about the B-25      |    problems and opportunities.     |
  |   in WWII.                       | B-25 in WWII.                      |
  | E-Mail:                          | Free lance writing and editing.    |
  |   USA:  BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET    | Stamp collecting.                  |
  =========================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 5 Sep 1994 13:24:08 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Response to Larry

If my perspectives were *that* upsetting for you, Larry, then
  (for your sake) I am glad you passed on the baton.

Thanks again for a good job.  Have you ever vacationed in
  Alaska?

Lou

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 5 Sep 1994 12:23:05 -0700
From:    John Davis <jbd@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Kamikaze torpedoes

>
> There is a chilling chapter in *Japan at War* by the Cooks (interviews
> with survivors) about the suicide submarines. I'll summarize it if anyone
> is interested and can't get the book at the library.
>
>             - Dan      <dan.ford@unh.edu>
>
>

Please do. I had not heard about suicide torpedoes or submarines.

------------
John Davis    jbd@netcom.com
Cary, N.C.
------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 5 Sep 1994 17:48:55 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <dan.ford@UNH.EDU>
Subject: More about Kaiten suicide subs

Kozu Naoji was drafted from Tokyo Imperial University in the fall
of 1943. He chose the navy because he loathed the army officers
("swaggering bastards") attached to the schools. He went to anti-
submarine warfare school Feb-Oct 1944. Out of frustration he
volunteered for a "special weapon" that would "reverse the tide
of war." Eldest sons, or those who had a brother at the front,
were rejected. Trained on a plywood motorboat at Kawatana; you
locked the helm and jump overboard before it crashed into the
target. When he first heard of Kamikaze attacks, he assumed that
the pilots likewise bailed out. This was a Shinyo ("Ocean
Shaker") but he was seconded to Hikari.

There he first saw a Kaiten ("Turning of the Heavens"). It was
painted flat black, with a small "sail" and a periscope; 14.5
meters overall and 1 meter (!) diameter. The rear third was a
Type 93 (1933) torpedo (the editor says it was actually two
torpedos fused together) with an explosive charge of 1.6 metric
tons; range 78,000 meters; max speed 30 knots. Four or six were
carried on the deck of a mother sub; the pilots entered through a
hatch. There was, of course, no means of recovering it.

You set the angle of attack from the periscope, then submerged.
"You have a stopwatch. You know how much of the one minute and
thirty seconds have elapsed. But you may have made an error in
measurement."

You got four practice runs, then went to a Kaiten unit and made a
run with an instructor. No one, he says, who was launched from
the motor sub ever came back, yet very few seem to have hit a
ship. Among the "pilots," 106 died, including 17 in accidents and
9 by enemy action before they were launched. So at most 81
actually attacked. U.S. records indicate three vessels lost to
Kaiten, though of course they may have been others, including
ships of Allied countries.

(From *Japan at War: An Oral History* by Haruko and Theodore
Cook, NY: The New Press, 1992).

            - Dan      <dan.ford@unh.edu>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 5 Sep 1994 20:00:53 -0400
From:    David Rising <drising@ACS.BU.EDU>
Subject: Re: 50TH: ROBERT CAPA-GOOD AND BAD LUCK

On Mon, 5 Sep 1994, Louis R. Coatney wrote:

> John,
>
>      Was that film destroyed after Normandy Robert Capa's or
> Frank Capra's?
>
> Lou Coatney
Just to step in and answer for John (who seems to be busy with all of our
requests for more stories), the film was Robert Capa's. If you see any of
his photos of D-Day, you will notice that they all look blurry etc. One
would naturally think that this was caused by the action of the time
(i.e. not wanting to take time to focus/adjust F-stop under fire) but was
actually caused by a SNAFU in the development process. If I recall
correctly, Capa took about 8 rolls of film on the beach of which about
1/2 dozen photos were saved.
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 5 Sep 1994 20:10:16 -0400
From:    David Rising <drising@ACS.BU.EDU>
Subject: Robert Capa

OOps. I just looked it up. Capa took 2 rolls of film and of those, 11
images were printable, albeit blurry. Capa was told that they had been
ruined by salt water getting into his camera, and didn't find out the
truth until later. Cheers,
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 5 Sep 1994 20:24:47 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: SMITHSONIAN

I don't know why you are surprised that only the front fuselage of the Enola
Gay is being exhibited. Have you ever seen the size of the B-29 and also the
room available for such exhibits at the Air and Space Museums? Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 5 Sep 1994 20:31:10 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: Re: NEWBORN AIRBORNE!

Congratulations, Alan. I, too, would like a cigar, a good one, for I enjoy them
immensely. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 5 Sep 1994 20:33:18 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: Re: U.S. "WAR PLANS" F

What makes you think that German courts run by judges who worked hand in glove
with the Nazis would have been the epitome of fair-minded justice? If you are
of that mind, I would like to know what you smoke. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 5 Sep 1994 20:43:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 6 SEP 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
WEDNESDAY, 6 SEPTEMBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-39, Bell Airacobra
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 6 B-25s hit Indaw while 3 bomb
Katha; 24 B-24s fly about 34,000 US gallons (128,704 l) of fuel to Kunming,
China; and large-scale daily troop carrier and cargo operations to a variety
of CBI terminals continue.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 20 B-25s pound Yiyang, Lingkuantien
railroad yards, trucks N of Lingling, troops and occupied areas around Kiyang
and Paishui, and Hengyang Airfield; 45 P-40s and P-51s on armed
reconnaissance attack troops, shipping, and communications targets in the
Yiyang area, bomb warehouses at Hukow, destroy a fuel barge at Pengtse, hit
railroad yards, trucks, troops, and sampans at Kweiyang and Lingkuantien, and
attack general targets of opportunity at Yangtien.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 607: 49 P-38s and 165
P-47s strafe rail and highway traffic in the Rotterdam, the Netherlands, and
the Aachen and Koblenz, Germany areas; 1 P-38 and 3 P-47s are lost to flak
(pilots are MIA) and 5 P-38s and 7 P-47s are damaged.
  70 B-24s fly TRUCKIN' missions (carrying cargo to airfields in France).

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, B-26s and A-20s hit Brest
area strongpoints, a coastal battery at Pointe du Grand Gouin, defenses at
Saint-Pierre-Quilbignon, and a Brest area bridge; fighters hit Brest area gun
positions and ammunition dump and fly cover for several armored and infantry
divisions; HQ 370th Fighter Group and the 401st, 402d and 485th Fighter
Squadrons move from La Vielle to Lonray with P-38s; HQ 474th Fighter Group
moves from St Marceau to Peronne; and the 23d Fighter Squadron, 36th Fighter
Group, moves from Brucheville to Le Mans with P-47s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 542 B-24s attack communications
targets in Rumania, Yugoslavia and Hungary and troop and tank concentrations
in S Yugoslavia; in Rumania, 2 marshalling yards are hit at Oradea, and 2
nearby bridges over the Sebes Koros River; targets in Yugoslavia are a
marshalling yard at Novi Sad, a bridge at Belgrade, and tanks and troops at
Leskovac; and a marshalling yard at Nyiregyhaza, Hungary. 2 bombers, with
fighter escort, evacuate interned airmen from Bucharest, Rumania.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy during the night of 5/6
Sep A-20s attack targets of opportunity in the Savona and Milan areas. In
France during the day, weather grounds XII Tactical Air Command aircraft
except for a few fighters based in France which fly armed reconnaissance over
the Belfort, Dijon, and Colmar areas, destroying or damaging numerous motor
transport and railroad cars and several locomotives, field guns, trailers,
and a tank; HQ 324th Fighter Group and the 315th and 316th Fighter Squadrons
move from Istres to Amberieu with P-47s; and the 35th Troop Carrier Squadron,
64th Troop Carrier Group, based at Ciampino, Italy, begins operating from
Istres with C-47s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): Saipan Island-based B-24s strike Iwo Jima
Island while P-47s make strafing and rocket runs on AA positions on Pagan
Island. B-24s on armed reconnaissance bomb Marcus Island. Eniwetok Atoll,
Marshall Island-based B-24s bomb Truk Island.

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): HQ 498th Bombardment Group (Very Heavy)
arrives at Isley Field, Saipan Island from the US.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: On Mindanao Island,
B-24s pound Santa Ana port and B-25s bomb Buayan Airfield in the first medium
bomber raid in the Philippine Islands since early 1942; several B-24s,
turning back from the Santa Ana strike, bomb Rainis in the Talaud Islands;
B-25s hit Galela on Halmahera Island and the S coast of Morotai Island while
on Halmahera Island, fighter-bombers hit Kaoe Airfield and bomb a Djailolo
Airfield runway. In New Guinea, A-20s, B-25s, and fighter-bombers hit
airfields at Manokwari, Moemi, Ransiki, and Waren, and stores and personnel
area at Nabire; P-40s attack S Soepiori Island and Napido; P-39s strafe
barges and huts at Suain; the 69th, 310th and 311th Fighter Squadrons, 58th
Fighter Group, move from Saidor to Noemfoor Island with P-47s; and the 71st
Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 38th Bombardment Group (Medium), moves from
Nadzab to Biak Island with B-25s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

06/0045Z SEP

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 5 Sep 1994 20:53:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Aircraft ranges

There was a discussion recently about the P-47 and P-51.  Today, I "found"
my March 1994 issue of the NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC and reread the article on
the Eighth Air Force.  Accompanying the article is a map of Europe showing
the ranges of various Eighth Air Force aircraft; I assume these are combat
ranges.  The range data presented are:

Vickers Supermarine Spitfire: 175 miles (282 km)
Republic P-47 Thunderbolt
  Without belly tank: 230 miles (370 km)
  With belly tank: 375 miles (603 km)
Lockheed P-38 Lightning: 520 miles (837 km)
North American P-51 Mustang with drop tanks: 600+ miles (966+ km)
Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress with 4,000-pound (1,814 kg) bombload: 1,850
  miles (2,977 km)
Consolidated B-24 Liberator with 4,000-pound (1,814 kg) bombload: 2,100
  miles (3,380 km)

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 5 Sep 1994 21:47:51 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: NEWBORN AIRBORNE!

Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM> says,...

>Congratulations, Alan. I, too, would like a cigar, a good one for I enjoy them
>immensely. Ben Frank

There's a Honduran Zino on the next postal plane. Please send address.

I enjoyed mine. :-)
                  !

Amicably, Alan

Alan G. Wild
Admin. Computing
University of Rhode Island
Kingston, R.I.  02881

I am the NRA.

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 4 Sep 1994 to 5 Sep 1994
***********************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 5 Sep 1994 to 6 Sep 1994
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Status: O

There are 60 messages totalling 1713 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. FREE FRENCH FORCES (5)
  2. ADMIN:  The NO MAIL option
  3. INF: 50 Years Ago - 06-SEP-1944
  4. INF: USN Chronology 09-06-94 (3)
  5. WEAP: 12"-gunned ARKANSAS
  6. WEAP:Kamikaze torpedoes
  7. Liberation of Paris
  8. U.S. 'war plans' for the Pacific
  9. INF: 50 Years Ago - 07-SEP-1944
 10. Aerial Ops, Last Day of War (2)
 11. MEDIA: SMITHSONIAN
 12. Speer (2)
 13. ADMIN: PLEASE RE...
 14. HIST: Speer (2)
 15. 12"-gunned ARKANSAS
 16. WEAP: Atomic Bombs
 17. Culpability of Speer (2)
 18. *Speer* designed/nstructed Holocaust/extermination facilities?
 19. INF: USN Chronology 0 (2)
 20. P51 & Chickens
 21. HOL: Also today 50 years ago (4)
 22. U.S. "WAR PLANS" F (2)
 23. Albert Speer (4)
 24. Any SHIP PLANS available on Byrd?
 25. Zemke
 26. (War Crimes) U.S. 'war plans' for the Pacific
 27. U.S.S. North Carolina
 28. U.S.S North Carolina, part II
 29. Two recent Schiffer books
 30. 50TH: ROBERT CAPA-GOOD
 31. THE OTHER WAY AROUND?
 32. ROMMEL and/or "The Grief"
 33. WEAP: KAMIKAZE TORPEDO
 34. EX-ADMIN: INFLAMATORY
 35. EX-ADMIN: INFLAMAT
 36. [INF] USAAF 7 SEP 44
 37. HIST: Albert Speer
 38. GEN: INFORMATION ON AIR FORCE HEADQUARTERS IN AFRICA?
 39. Speer and Concentration Camps (long)
 40. The first victims of Nazi gas chambers. (2)
 41. ADMIN: I'm back

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 00:26:40 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: Re: FREE FRENCH FORCES

One of the stories, or should I say myths, which may almost be true is the fact
that Ho Chi Minh was in contact or worked with an Army OSS officer, and Ho
asked for U.S. recognition, or somesuch, in return for which he would become a
U.S. ally, but only if the French colonial power over Indo-China was removed. I
know that there is much more to this, but I don't have it at hand and I dredged
the depths of my memory to bring this fact up. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 02:08:25 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: ADMIN:  The NO MAIL option

Joe,

     You *could* set an "offender" to NO MAIL for a week,
*announcing* to the list you are doing so, of course.

     If others think you have been unjust, they can let you
know, appropriately/back-channel.

     However you plan on controlling list content, it should
be judicious and BALANCED, as I am sure you agree.

Lou

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 04:19:04 -0400
From:    Jeff Olson <jeff.olson@TFD.IGLOU.COM>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 06-SEP-1944

JD.Army Helicopter School - The Army has established the first military
.helicopter training school at Freeman Field, Ind.

Can anyone provide a location for Freeman Field in Indiana?  Close to
Terre Haute?

Jeff
---
. 1st 1.11 #1611 . jeff.olson@tfd.iglou.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 01:29:33 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 09-06-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
09/06 Wed. Aircraft from fast carrier force (Vice Adm. M. A.
           Mitscher) composed of 16 carriers, and cruisers and
           destroyers strike Japanese aircraft installations and
           defenses on Yap, Ulithi, and the Palau Islands in the
           western Caroline Islands group. Attacks continue
           through 8 September.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 5 Sep 1994 23:09:13 EST
From:    "CARL WERNKE (TCWERNC@VCCSCENT)" <TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET>
Subject: Re: WEAP: 12"-gunned ARKANSAS

 To: Multiple recipients of list WWII-L(WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU)
 In-Reply-To: (199409041628.AA02181@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu)From "CARL WERNKE" at
                                                    Sep 3, 94 00:31:49

 On Mon, 5 Sep 1994 12:53:07 -0500 LOu Coatney wrote:
 > I assume ARKANSAS was kept in service presumably at some risk to her crew)
 > to use up the remainder/surplus of 12" shells. I wonder how many were duds.

 Lou, I have no record regarding ARKANSAS' duds. However, I do know the "Old
 Girl," at 0600 on 16 February 1945, opened fire on Japanese strong points on
 Iwo Jima as she lay off the island's west coast. The old BB bombarded the
 island through the 19th, and remained in the fire support area to provide
 cover during the evening hours. During her time off the gun-line, ARKANSAS
 shelled numerous Japanese positions, in support of the bitter struggle by the
 marines to root out and destroy the stubborn enemy resistance. She cleared the

 she cleared the waters off Iwo Jima on 7 March to return to Ulithi. After
 arriving at that atol on 10 March, the battleship *rearmed*, provisioned, and
 fueled in prepariation for her next operation on the invasion of Okinawa.----
 Getting underway (u/w) on 21 March, ARKANSAS began her preliminary shelling of
 Japanese positions on Okinawa on 25 March, some days ahead of the assault
 troops which began wading ashore on 1 April. The Japanese soon began an aerial
 attack, and ARKANSAS fought off several kamikazes. For 46 days, ARKANSAS
 delivered fire support for the invasion of Okinawa. On 14 May, the ship
 arrived at Apra Harbor, Guam, to await further assignment.

 After a month at Apra Harbor, part ofwhich she spent in drydock, ARKANSAS got
 u/w on 12 June for Leyte Gulf. She anchored there  on 16 June, and remained in
 Philippine waters until the war drew to a close in August. ---ARKANSAS
 received four battle stars for her World War II service.

 Material obtained from jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Larry & Kim Jewell)
 Message-Id: (9405121528.AA12559@mace.cc.purdue.edu), dated Thu, 12 May 94
 10:28:36 EST.

   Carl Wernke
   TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 01:34:45 EST
From:    "CARL WERNKE (TCWERNC@VCCSCENT)" <TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET>
Subject: Re: WEAP:Kamikaze torpedoes

 To: Multiple recipients of list WWII-L(WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU)


 John Davis (jbd@NETCOM.COM)
 John Riegsecker (riegseker@ups.udu)

 Messages Mon, 5 Sep 1994 08:38:06 -0700

 John Davis stated:
 > I had never heard of such thing (Kaiten).
 > Were these things for real ? Was any ship ever sunk with one ?

 The production of oxygen torpedoes during the war was insufficient for the
 requirements of the submarine service. (Thus, an accurate statistical survey
 of the effectiveness of Japanese torpedoes during the war cannot be compiled
 from Allied sources of information, unless the type of torpedo used in every
 attack is known.)

 The striking power of Japanese submarines was greatly curtailed by the fact
 that many of them were forced to transport stores in forward areas.

 _Kaiten_

 While commander of the Suicide Torpedo School at OTSUSHIMA, CDR Mitsuma
 Itakura trained about 200volunteers as KAITEN pilots. Each man made about
 20 runs in a KAITEN over a period of three months.

_Effectiveness of KAITEN_:- Itakura could not offer accurate information on the
 effect of KAITEN attacks, but he thought that the following vessels had been
 sunk by  these torpedoes:
                          2 or 3 aircraft carriers
                          2 battleships
                          25 or 30 merchant ships
                          4 or 6 destroyers

  The above information was obtained from  JAPANESE TORPEDOES AND TUBES
  ARTICLE 2   AIRCRAFT TORPEDOES  "Intelligent Targets Japan" (DNI) Of
  4 SEPT 1945  Fascicle O-1, Target O-01  MARCH 1946   U.S.Naval Technical
  Mission To Japan ---page 424.


  Kennosuke Torisu, assisted by Masataka Chihaya,wrote (p.525) the following
  comments in _THE JAPANESE NAVY IN WORLD WAR II_, Editor and Translator of
  of the Second Edition, Dr.David C.Evans, Naval Institute Press, Annapolis,MD,
  1986.  Quote:
         Note 6. Only a few successes claimed for the KAITEN have been
                 substantiated by later research. KAITEN from I-47 sank the
                 Mississinewa (AO-59) at Ulithi. The I-53 released Kaiten that
                 blew apart the Underhill (DE-682) in the Philippine Sea.
                 Aside from these two vessels sunk, results were meager. The
                 destroyer escort Gilligan (DE-508) was damaged by KAITEN, as
                 were the repair ship Endymion (ARL-9), the attack transport
                 Marathon (APA-200), and possibly the destroyer Lowery
                 (DD-770). See Rohwer,op. cit., pp. 286-91 As Rohwer notes
                 on p.xii, "The real cause of the large overestimates of
                 success was the difficulty the U-boats had in getting the
                 necessary data following an attack. . . . The U-boat
                 captains were prone to classify almost all torpedo
                 detonations heard as hits, and all manner of acoustic
                 noise as 'sinking sounds."





   Carl Wernke
   TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 11:46:24 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <smb@NETMGRS.CO.UK>
Subject: Liberation of Paris

Lying in bed last Sunday morning, I was listening to the excellent
(and immortal) Alistair Cooke transmitting his weekly "Letter from
America". He dwelt on the conflict over allied strategy 1944-45
vis-a-vis
advancing to Berlin on a narrow front or pushing the Germans back
at all points.

He mentioned too, the liberation of Paris as being the most important
capital liberated by the forces of democracy and also that sections of the
American press had drawn the conclusion that the liberation of Paris
was inevitable because soldiers of a democracy were
ultimately bound to triumph over soldiers of dictatorships because they
were more motivated etc. He then quoted a rebuttal to that argument
but named the source of the quote at the end - from William F. Buckley,
the implication being that WFB is not a chap to be listened to very
much?

A couple of questions:
- who is WFB and why might his opinions not be very popular?
- is it true that sections of the US press made these statements,
and has anyone studied the performance of fighting men in relation
to the regime they are fighting for?

Steve Baldwin
smb@netmgrs.co.uk

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 07:01:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: FREE FRENCH FORCES

 >One of the stories, or should I say myths, which may almost be true is the fact
 >that Ho Chi Minh was in contact or worked with an Army OSS officer, and Ho
 >asked for U.S. recognition, or somesuch, in return for which he would become a
 >U.S. ally, but only if the French colonial power over Indo-China was removed. I
 >know that there is much more to this, but I don't have it at hand and I dredged
 >the depths of my memory to bring this fact up. Ben Frank

My wife and I were in London a number of years ago and I remember reading an
article in the magazine section of the LONDON TIMES.  The article was about
the British activities in French Indochina (Vietnam today) at the immediate
end of the war.  According to the article, there were no French troops
available to accept the Japanese surrender in the country so the Brits went
in.   Unfortunately, there were not enough Brit troops available so the
Brits gave the Japanese troops their weapons back and used them as
policemen.  There was a photograph of a Brit officer standing in front of
several ranks of armed Japanese troops giving them orders.  I wonder what
the local population thought of all this?

It is also my understanding that FDR had warned the Brits and French
against reestablishing their colonial empires in Africa and the Far East
but of course they didn't listen.  Has anyone else heard of this?

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 07:32:40 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: U.S. 'war plans' for the Pacific

Hello, Alan!

Hope you had a great weekend.

> I understand the reference to Doenitz,... but what complicity does
> Albert Speer have with war crimes? As I understand it, he was an
> inventor and exec in mfg.

    True, but AS also used forced labor, without much attention or
care as to their continued good health, in his construction projects
during the war.
    The only thing that saved him was the outright disobedience and
countermanding of Hitler's draconian decree to destroy everything
within the borders of Germany that could be used as sustenance for
the enemy.
    But, to my way of thinking, Speer should have been hanged or
spent the rest of his life behind bars for the use of forced labor
from the Occupied Territories to build war-related projects. My
opinion of course. Your thoughts or any others?

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 05:50:15 -0700
From:    John Davis <jbd@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 07-SEP-1944

On 07-SEP-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The US 1st Army and British 2nd Army reach the Albert Canal in
Belgium. The 113th Cavalry Group (US XIX Corps) crosses the canal near
Hasselt. The 3rd Armoured Division (VII Corps, 1st Army) reaches Liege. The US
VI Corps enters Besancon.

Eastern Front - The Russians have penetrated into the eastern Carpathians,
almost to the Hungarian border. Bulgaria declares war on Germany, as the
occupation by the 3rd Ukraine Front continues.

Italian Front - The Germans withdraw from their positions in the hills north
and northeast of Florence.

Burma/China - The Chinese 8th Army completes mopping up in the Sung Shan zone
on the Salween front. The battle in this sector has cost the Chinese nearly
8,000 dead. The Japanese garrison of 2,000 has been wiped out.

The Homefront
-------------
Pearl Harbor Investigators In Hawaii - The Army board of inquiry for the Pearl
Harbor attack has arrived in Honolulu and is expected to hold hearings for two
weeks.

Lucille Ball Asks For Divorce - Actress Lucille Ball has filed a suit for
divorce in Los Angeles from Desi Arnaz, Cuban film actor now in the Army,
charging cruelty.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  jbd@netcom.com
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 07:50:46 CDT
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Aerial Ops, Last Day of War

I know a gentleman who claims his father was a P-51 pilot in Europe, and
that his father was the last USAAF pilot to be shot down over Europe.
The last name is Hoelscher--his son is a USAFR LtCol.  Can anyone
confirm or deny this??

TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 08:55:31 -0500
From:    Drew Halevy <dhalevy@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: SMITHSONIAN

If I remember correctly, there is a B-29 fuselage (intact) at Kirkland
Air Force Base in Albquerque, NM.-drew

Drew Halevy
Department of History
University of Arkansas
DHALEVY@COMP.UARK.EDU

On Mon, 5 Sep 1994, Ben Frank wrote:

> I don't know why you are surprised that only the front fuselage of the Enola
> Gay is being exhibited. Have you ever seen the size of the B-29 and also the
> room available for such exhibits at the Air and Space Museums? Ben Frank
>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 09:48:15 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Speer

Prof. Terry Moore wrote,...

>    But, to my way of thinking, Speer should have been hanged or
>spent the rest of his life behind bars for the use of forced labor
>from the Occupied Territories to build war-related projects. My
>opinion of course. Your thoughts or any others?

Well,... since being informed that he constructed the death camps I have
no recourse but to conclude that he should have been shot/hung. That showed
complicity with full knowledge of an entirely horrendous act. A colleague
on campus said to me that it was no different from Colt Mfg. turning out
weapons today. I told her that she'd have a tough time defending her family
or business with a gas shower, or a large oven. ('xtra $.02) 'Grizzly subject.

Thanks for the input... -Al

Alan G. Wild
Admin. Computing
University of Rhode Island
Kingston, R.I.  02881

I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 09:05:01 -0500
From:    Drew Halevy <dhalevy@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: INF: USN Chronology 09-06-94

> 1944
> 09/06 Wed. Aircraft from fast carrier force (Vice Adm. M. A.
>            Mitscher) composed of 16 carriers, and cruisers and

Wow! The idea of having 16 carriers in one task force. imagaine what it
would be like for a pre-war Navy person to see the Navy build up to such
a scale in three years that one task force would have 16 carriers!? I
have always been impressed by the photo of a lagooon somewhere in the
South Pacific (around 1944/45) where the carriers simply stretch to the
horizion. It boggles the mind that so many underestimated the industrial
capacity of the US in 1940/41. Just a thought-Drew

>
> Theron P. Keller
> Logicon, Inc.
> Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
> tkeller@logicon.com
>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 09:08:08 -0500
From:    Drew Halevy <dhalevy@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: FREE FRENCH FORCES

>
> It is also my understanding that FDR had warned the Brits and French
> against reestablishing their colonial empires in Africa and the Far East
> but of course they didn't listen.  Has anyone else heard of this?

I am not sure about all overseas colonies, but FDR was very against the
French returning to Indochina (Cochin-china, Annam and Tokin i think)
since he felt the area had suffered under French control, and that it was
worse off in 1945 than it had been in 1845, when the French first got
there-drew
DHALEVY@COMP.UARK.EDU

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 09:09:59 EST
From:    coon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU
Subject: Re: ADMIN: PLEASE RE...

I agree with direct post posting of inflammatory remarks to the individual
targeted.  Keep them off the list, not matter who the poster is.  I am on
this list to learn, to reminisce, and occasionally to share a little bit of
my knowledge (OK, that part is pretty rare) but I am not interested in
flame wars.  I have quit too many lists because a few individuals couldn't
decide what should be private and what is list-appropriate.
*****************************************************
(Roger) Brad Coon             The right to defend
COON@IPFWCVAX.BITNET          one's self and one's
COON@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU    family against harm and
                              injustice is the most
                              basic civil right.

Proud to be a member of America's largest civil rights
group, the National Rifle Association.
******************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 10:37:08 -0400
From:    Warren Thompson <THOMPSON@ACAD.LVC.EDU>
Subject: HIST: Speer

To Alan Wild et al: Please post documentation for the claim that Speer built
the death camps.

-- Warren Thompson
LEBANON VALLEY COLLEGE
Annville PA 17003

thompson@acad.lvc.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 09:50:06 EST
From:    coon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU
Subject: Re: 12"-gunned ARKANSAS

While I don't recall the particulars, I believe that the Arkansas was
to have been replaced by new construction had the war not begun.  As
any BB is a very expensive ship to keep in service, I suspect that
considerations of available stores of 12" shells would have been
secondary.  However, as Carl has pointed out, she did her duty as
a fire-support, bombardment vessel.
Her sister the Wyoming had been partially dearmed as a training
ship and I assume that she would still be using up 12" rounds as
well.
*****************************************************
(Roger) Brad Coon             The right to defend
COON@IPFWCVAX.BITNET          one's self and one's
COON@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU    family against harm and
                              injustice is the most
                              basic civil right.

Proud to be a member of America's largest civil rights
group, the National Rifle Association.
******************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 10:34:58 -0500
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <TWATTS@EXODUS.VALPO.EDU>
Subject: WEAP: Atomic Bombs

I didn't see the recent movie about the Indianapolis, but I do remember
that it was sunk after it had carried one of the two atomic bombs to
Hawaii.  My question to the list is: how did that bomb get to Saipan and
how did the second one make it from the U.S. to Saipan?  I know they
used the Indianapolis because they thought a battleship was too slow and
a destroyer would not have been secure enough against attack.  I assume
(probably wrongly) that they did not want to fly the bombs out to
Saipan.  So how did they do it?
Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 11:54:19 -0400
From:    "Benjamin B. Weber" <bweber@MOOSE.UVM.EDU>
Subject: Culpability of Speer

Speer also, I believe, admitted during his trial that his supposed
lack of knowledge regarding the death camps was no grounds for innocence.
He was in a position to know what what going on and should, therefore, have
made it his business.  Ignorance is no defense for someone in
that powerful a position.

Benjamin B. Weber
Univ. of Vermont
bweber@moose.uvm.edu

On Tue, 6 Sep 1994, Robert T. Moore wrote:

> Hello, Alan!
>
> Hope you had a great weekend.
>
> > I understand the reference to Doenitz,... but what complicity does
> > Albert Speer have with war crimes? As I understand it, he was an
> > inventor and exec in mfg.
>
>     True, but AS also used forced labor, without much attention or
> care as to their continued good health, in his construction projects
> during the war.
>     The only thing that saved him was the outright disobedience and
> countermanding of Hitler's draconian decree to destroy everything
> within the borders of Germany that could be used as sustenance for
> the enemy.
>     But, to my way of thinking, Speer should have been hanged or
> spent the rest of his life behind bars for the use of forced labor
> from the Occupied Territories to build war-related projects. My
> opinion of course. Your thoughts or any others?
>
>     Terry
>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 10:58:52 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: *Speer* designed/nstructed Holocaust/extermination facilities?

This is the first I've heard that *Speer* designed the
  extermination facilities.

What is the source for it?

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 16:18:00 UTC
From:    "Edward S. Miller" <e.miller4@GENIE.GEIS.COM>
Subject: Re: INF: USN Chronology 0

Theron Keller writes:
  > Wow! The idea of having 16 carriers in one task force...  I have always
been impressed by the photo of a lagooon somewhere in the South Pacific
(around 1944/45) where the carriers simply stretch to the horizion.

  The famous photos were taken in Majuro, Eniwetok and later Ulithi.

  It took 3 years to build a fleet carrier in WWII, reduced to a bit over 2
years near the end of the war.  Thanks to the 2-Ocean Navy Act of summer
1940, new Essex-class CVs (and the 9 CVLs converted from cruiser hulls) were
ready for Nimitz's big push by late 1943.  If the US had delayed the naval
expansion until after Pearl Harbor, the central Pacific drive would have
been delayed until 1945.  In that case, the main axis of attack might have
been via MacArthur's SW Pacific theater, or possibly even the CBI theater,
where carriers were not vital.
  Edward S. Miller    Stamford CT    e.miller4@genie.geis.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 13:54:51 EDT
From:    Patrick D Marsden <marsden@TEXAS.CPI.COM>
Subject: P51 & Chickens

                          Original Message
   ---------------------------------------------------------------
   I read your post to the WWII-L regarding your grandfather's
   misadventure with the P-51 ingesting a chicken.  I'm quite
   intrigued, as both of my parents grew up on farms in rural
   Hardin county, KY, near Ft. Knox, in the 1930s-40s.  Can you
   recall or ask where your grandfather's farm was located, and
   can you possibly come up with a date of the incident?  I would
   certainly like to ask my parents if they recall the incident,
   and to see if it made the local newspaper at the time.  My
   father was born in 1930, and my mother in 1933, so they would
   have been old enough to recall it.
   ---------------------------------------------------------------

 The incident I mentioned took place at a farm near
 Battletown (ville?), KY.  According to my father, who
 was about six at the time, the town is between "Big Bend"
 and "Little Bend", two bends on the Ohio river west of
 Louiville.  The town itself consisted of a few houses
 built around the intersection of two major roads.  It did
 make the local paper since my father remembered his mother
 saving the article.  He doesn't recall the paper or the date.

 After visiting with my father this past weekend and telling him
 of the posting, he's interested to see if anyone out there
 has heard of the incident.  I've now almost got him convinced to
 finally get a modem and get on the list.

 Patrick

 marsden@euler.cpi.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 10:36:06 PDT
From:    Anthony Anderson <ANTHONYA@VM.USC.EDU>
Subject: HOL: Also today 50 years ago

Early morning September 6, 1944 a train reached Auschwitz. It had
left  three days earlier from Westerbork, the Dutch transit  camp
on  the  German border. This was the 64th (and  final)  train  to
bring  Dutch  Jews from Westerbork to Auschwitz,  On  this  final
transport were 1019 people: 498 men, 442 women, and 79  children.
In  this  group  of people were Otto Frank,  his  wife,  and  two
daughters;  on August 4th they (along with four other  Jews)  had
been  arrested  at  their hiding place on  the  Prinsengracht  in
Amsterdam. Once in Auschwitz, all transportees were subjected  to
"Selektion" on the railroad platform.  258 men and 212 women were
admitted  to Auschwitz-Birkenau; the remaining people  (including
all of the children) were sent to the gas chambers. Otto  Frank's
younger daughter, Anne, looking somewhat older than her 15 years,
was  admitted  as an adult. Hermann van Pels ("Mr. Van  Daan"  in
Anne's  diary) was among those who were gassed, the first one  in
their group to die.


Anthony Anderson
Government Documents Department
Doheny Memorial Library
University of Southern California
Los Angeles, CA

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 12:57:15 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Speer

Hello, Alan!

Thanks for your note. I had a chance to get to know one of two Signal
Corps photographers who photographed the entire proceedings of the
Nuremberg War Crimes Trials, and his opinion was that "More should
have been hung." That is always debatable, but, although I appreciate
Speer's memoirs, his knowledge, as you point out, that he knew what
was going on and did nothing to try and stop it, put him in the same
boat as his colleague Fritz Sauckel, who was hanged. Speer simply
carried out orders as anyone else in Hitler's Reich. Only when faced
with catastrophe and the prospect of being the agent to effectively
destroy Germany, did he take matters into his own hands.

Thanks again for your note, Alan, and all the best.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 13:10:04 -0500
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <TWATTS@EXODUS.VALPO.EDU>
Subject: Re: INF: USN Chronology 0

This discussion of carriers brings to mind a "what if" that I have wondered
about in the past.  Maybe someone on the list would care to speculate or
knows of a wargame that has examined the situation.

What if the Japanese Imperial Fleet had decided to make a maximum response
to the invasion of Tarawa in November 1943, instead of the invasion of the
Marianas in June 1944?  (Ignore the fact that the Marianas were more
important and that Tarawa was only an outlying garrison.)  With hindsight,
we now know the American forces would become much stronger in the 6 months
that followed Tarawa, while the Japanese would not be adding substantial
numbers of ships (again, something the Japanese would not have known).
Although I don't have information in front of me, I believe the two forces
would have been much more evenly matched in November 1943.

Although I don't think there is any correct answer, I am curious if anyone
has an idea what the relative orders of battle might have been, and also
speculations on whether this could have delayed Japan's defeat.

P.S., in a completely different matter, does anyone have any knowledge of
the CD-ROM games coming out in Japan in which Japan wins the war?  I saw
something about them in magazine, along the lines of "the Japanese fleet
visits the comfort women in south east asian ports, goes out and defeats
the Americans in the Marianas and wins the war".
Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 13:11:44 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: U.S. "WAR PLANS" F

Hello, Ben!

I will give you my two cents' worth on this. I am no expert on the
background of the judges who heard cases in de-Nazification courts,
but as I mentioned earlier, their brand of justice in the late 1940's
was harsher than those who sat in judgement at Nuremberg. I feel
the de-Nazification courts acted more harshly, perhaps more out of
guilt and a desire to expiate their sins under Hitler and for other
political reasons. Rightly or wrongly, that is the way it
was. I certainly don't excuse any of them for their activities that
in retrospect was wrong. However, my point is that these de-
Nazification courts meted out justice more harshly, for whatever
reason and motivation, than those who sat in judgement at Nuremberg,
especially to those whom the Allies acquitted.


hat makes you think that German courts run by judges who worked
hand in glove
> with the Nazis would have been the epitome of fair-minded justice?

    Please see above. No, not fair-minded justice, but justice
nonetheless.

    If you are
> of that mind, I would like to know what you smoke. Ben Frank

    No more than anyone else.

    Thanks, Ben! Your thoughts?

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 19:12:27 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <smb@NETMGRS.CO.UK>
Subject: Albert Speer

The current discussion on Albert Speer is revealing. For a man who, according
to some on the list, was responsible for key elements that made the holocaust
possible, he affected a remarkable rehabilitation into public life -
his book "Inside the Third Reich" is well-known, and I can remember seeing
many interviews by him on television before his death. He presented
himself articulately and appeared to be, when compared with his more
notorious contemporaries, relatively "clean". If my
memory serves me correctly, he was, at various times, Hitler's
Armaments Minister and also something to do with architecture and
heritage? Can anyone fill out the missing gaps as to the dates of
his appointments and also the year of his birth & passing...?


Steve Baldwin
smb@netmgrs.co.uk

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 13:14:02 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Culpability of Speer

Hello, Ben!


> Speer also, I believe, admitted during his trial that his supposed
> lack of knowledge regarding the death camps was no grounds for innocence.
> He was in a position to know what what going on and should, therefore, have
> made it his business.  Ignorance is no defense for someone in
> that powerful a position.

    You are absolutely right, and Speer knew, perhaps more than
anyone through his position, what was going on, and yet did nothing
to stop it.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 13:34:39 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Aerial Ops, Last Day of War

Hello, Tim!

That name sounds familiar to me. It seems I have corresponded with
someone by that name who was in the USAAF. I will check and get back
to you.

    Terry

> I know a gentleman who claims his father was a P-51 pilot in Europe, and
> that his father was the last USAAF pilot to be shot down over Europe.
> The last name is Hoelscher--his son is a USAFR LtCol.  Can anyone
> confirm or deny this??
>
> TAS
>
> ************************************************************************
> *  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
> *  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
> *  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
> *  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
> *  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
> ************************************************************************
>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 13:41:22 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Any SHIP PLANS available on Byrd?

Larry, Bob Granvin, anybody:

I believe we have various databases describing aircraft and
  battleships on Internet, now.  (I *think* DICTIONARY OF
  AMERICAN NAVAL FIGHTING SHIPS may be on somewhere, as well.)

Reading P.C. Coker's *highly recommended* BUILDING WARSHIP
  MODELS (1974), I note he states that whereas private authors'
  model plans must be eyed critically and sometimes distrusted
  -- which I can verify -- the *official* ship plans are
  exactly that(!).

Would there be any chance of the official ship plans being
  scanned onto an FTP-able Byrd-like database?  This could be
  a worldwide effort.

(I am having *great* fun, trying to get photos and plans of
  the between-wars Dutch light cruisers JAVA and SUMATRA,
  for example.)

Once these are on, they will be a definitive resource for
  all time.

Lou Coatney, Naval Model Architect at Large


x
Incidentally, Is there any *naval* history usergroup going?

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 20:43:26 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVS2.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: Albert Speer

On Tue, 6 Sep 1994, Stephen Baldwin wrote:

> The current discussion on Albert Speer is revealing. For a man who, according
> to some on the list, was responsible for key elements that made the holocaust
> possible,

I would like to hear more about that before I accept it as fact. First
time I (and most of us) hear that...

> he affected a remarkable rehabilitation into public life -

Probably his abortive attempt to kill Hitler also played a role in this.
He planned to kill Hitler by putting poison gas in the ventilation system
of his bunker --- Speer had designed it --- but he didn't; for which
he gave two contradictory explanations: he was either convinced (by
listening in to conversations) that the people still supported Hitler,
or the inlets of the system were guarded... If I remember well, he
told the first story during preliminary interrogations, and the second
one in the court of Neurenberg.

Vague and suspect as the story is, it probably helped him in court.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 13:48:48 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Albert Speer

Hello, again, Steve!

One other thing just occurred to me. As Hitler's favorite architect,
his later Minister of Armaments and Munitions, taking the place of
Air Force General Fritz Todt, killed in a plane crash in 1943, Speer
became the supreme authority for any construction project carried out
within Germany or its Occupied Territories. For these projects, he
knowingly and condoned the use of slave labor to carry out these
projects. He was a very powerful and influential man who was
answerable only to AH.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 14:07:49 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Zemke

Hello, Jack!

Thanks for that post on "Hub" Zemke. I am so sorry to hear about his
death, and your message was the first of it I had seen. I shall
always consider myself very fortunate to have corresponded with him.


Thanks again.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 15:34:40 -0400
From:    Jack Petrilli <jack@THE-WIRE.COM>
Subject: Re: FREE FRENCH FORCES

>I am not sure about all overseas colonies, but FDR was very against the
>French returning to Indochina (Cochin-china, Annam and Tokin i think)
>since he felt the area had suffered under French control, and that it was
>worse off in 1945 than it had been in 1845, when the French first got
>there-drew

The American amibivalence about Vietnam might have had its roots here. On
the one hand, the Americans were against colonialism in all its forms, but
on the other hand, they were also against communism. So what were they to do
when the local anti-colonial forces were also communist?  In the early
fifties, they were only able to lend half-hearted support to the French
against Ho Chi Minh because of this ambivalence. They then tried to walk a
tightrope by trying to fill the anti-communist void left by the departing
French (after Diembienphu) but, at the same time, trying to avoid becoming a
colonial presence. We all know what a nightmare this impossible position
became. (ie. Couldn't actually invade the north as this would be outright
colonialism but couldn't leave the south either, as this would be succumbing
to the so-called "Domino effect".

- Jack

(Living in Mississauga but a Habs fan to the end)

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 15:39:01 EST
From:    coon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU
Subject: Re: HOL: Also today 50 years ago

        Lets start off by making this part real clear, THIS IS NOT
AN ATTEMPT TO DENY THE HOLOCAUST OR THE ANNE FRANK DIARY.  But I am
curious as to how it is possible to say who died first in any given
gassing or gas chamber.  Are there records that substantiate this.
Many of the stories that I have heard, not only from the Holocaust but
from other terrible events often have the kind of human detail that strikes
me as unlikely to have been recorded no matter how possible or likely
that it might be true.
Just curious,
*****************************************************
(Roger) Brad Coon             The right to defend
COON@IPFWCVAX.BITNET          one's self and one's
COON@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU    family against harm and
                              injustice is the most
                              basic civil right.

Proud to be a member of America's largest civil rights
group, the National Rifle Association.
******************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 15:42:56 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: (War Crimes) U.S. 'war plans' for the Pacific

Hello, Henry!

This is my opinion, but I think Speer was an opportunist whose only
purpose in life was to acquire commissions so that he could utilize
his talents, no matter for whom. During the war, I think more often
than not, Speer had a tendency to look the other way at
unpleasantness, even if he knew he was contributing to it. I
personally do not feel that Speer was misunderstood. He may have
tried to portray himself in this way after the war, but his record
speaks for itself, and I think his knowledge of what went on in
Germany, re the Final Solution, of which he had to know given his
position and knowledge of production figures of every war-related
industry in the country and in Occupied Europe, and his complicity in
the use of forced labor for construction projects and industrial
employment make him a major war criminal who deserved to be hanged.
I don't see Speer being misunderstood in that.

Terry


> Actually,
Speer was an architect and a humanitarian who tried to bring
> joy to the hearts of European children by supplying pyrotechnic displays
> all across Europe in 1944-45. Today he would be a roadie for a rock
> group. Clearly a misunderstood man.
>
> HS
>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 17:04:11 EDT
From:    Patrick D Marsden <marsden@TEXAS.CPI.COM>
Subject: U.S.S. North Carolina

 I had the opportunity to visit the U.S.S. North Carolina
 this past weekend in Wilmington.  The tour of the battle-
 ship took about three hours and was well worth the time.
 On the drive home I thought of two questions.

 1)  Back to the Yamato/Iowa debate...  The North Carolina
 had a wonderful fire control center (from an engineering
 point of view).  I was amazed at the number (and size) of
 large analog computers which directed the 16" fire.  How
 did the fire control of the Japanese compare with the U.S.
 and did the Japanese possess analog or mechanical computers
 for fire control?

 2)  On the starboard side of the ship is a ' 5" gun training
 device' which, according to the placcard, was used to train
 the 5" gun crews and find the exact time it took for the loaders
 to transfer the round from the elevator to the breech and fire
 the piece.  The rational was that, again according to the placcard,
 the exact time was needed for setting the fuses since the rounds
 were armed while the round was still below deck.  The implication
 is that rounds were transfered up the elevator to the gun crew
 with the fuse already burning.  Can this be accurate??

 Thanks in advance,

 Patrick
 marsden@euler.cpi.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 17:10:05 EDT
From:    Patrick D Marsden <marsden@TEXAS.CPI.COM>
Subject: U.S.S North Carolina, part II

 Speaking of the visit to the U.S.S. North Carolina again...
 IMHO the greatest part of the tour was a picture taken a few
 years ago when the crew of the NC met with the crew of
 the Japanese sub I-19.  The picture showed a plaque the
 U.S. captain gave the Japanese captain.  It contained
 an inscription and a bronzed fragment of a Long Lance
 torpedo.

 Paraphrasing the inscription, "The crew of the U.S.S.
 North Carolina, BB-51, hereby return to the crew of the
 IJN I-19 their torpedo with which we collided on
 September <something>, 1943<?>.  We apologize for
 any damage which occured to the torpedo when we ran into
 it."

 My apologies to both crews for any and all inaccuracies
 in the wording but I was laughing when I read it.

 Patrick,
 marsden@euler.cpi.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 16:29:21 -0500
From:    Drew Halevy <dhalevy@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Albert Speer

I do not know specific facts, but the life of AS is quite interesting. He
became the minister (?) of archicture at a very early age. He design the
Nuremburg stadium, and made plans for buidling a "Nazi City" with grand
sweeping buildings. He was quite young, (31 or 32) when he joined the
inner circle of Hitler. He was also a close associate of Hilter, due it
part to Hitler's self perception of his artistic skills. Speer was also
one of the last to see Hitler alive, having been in the Bunker in late
April 1945. He was able to write his book while in prison with the help
of sympathic guards who provided him with paper and materials and also
sumggled out many of his writing. Of all of those in the docket at
Nuremburg, Speer was percieved by many as "cleaner" than his
co-defendents. -drew

Drew Halevy
Department of History
University of Arkansas
DHALEVY@COMP.UARK.EDU

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 16:53:44 EDT
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <sparks@ALPHA.CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: Two recent Schiffer books

Two Schiffer books have been recently released pertinent to a
couple of the topics of discussion lately on this list.

"Natter Ba 349 and Other German Rocket Fighter Projects" by
Joachim Dressel.  While concentrating on the Ba 349, the Arado
E381, DFS "Eber", Messerschmitt P.1103, Heinkel P.1077 "Julia",
and other similar projects are briefly described.  This book is
similar in size and format to the Squadron/Signal "In Action"
series of books and costs $8.95.

"Mistel:  The Piggy-back Aircraft of the Luftwaffe" by Hans-Peter
Dabrowski.  Concentrates on the better-known Mistels made up of
either Fw 190s or Bf 109s on top of Ju 88 of Ju 188 bombers, but
does mention the British Short/Mayo combination as well as several
photos of various tow aircraft on top of DFS 230 gliders.  The
book costs $9.95.

Announced, but not available as of last week, is a book on the
German aircraft carrier Graff Zeppelin.

Schiffer Books are available through bookstores, hobby shops,
mail order hobby retailers such as Squadron Mail Order, or directly
through Schiffer.  Their address is 77 Lower Valey Road, Atglen,
PA 19310.

Dennis E. Sparks
sparks@alpha.caer.uky.edu
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 18:13:47 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: 50TH: ROBERT CAPA-GOOD

John, are we talking about the famous photographer Robert Capra? It was no
surprise when he was killed "in action" in Vietnam, for he had used up all his
other lives when filming the Spanish Civil War, WWII, Korea, and other little
incidents that go on elsewhere in the world. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 18:13:54 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: THE OTHER WAY AROUND?

Lou, I think that you are missing the message entirely. This is a discussion
list dedicated to discussing WWII topics and other ancillary matters. I don't
need any political slant/cant/BS on the board. THAT is what is disruptive and
every message I have seen, whether directed to you or referring to you,
expresses that thought. There must be other boards whose members would enjoy
your rhetoric. I would hope so. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 18:28:20 -0500
From:    LONG2469@SPLAVA.CC.PLATTSBURGH.EDU
Subject: ROMMEL and/or "The Grief"

Date sent:  6-SEP-1994 18:21:24

Hello:

        I am greatly interested in Field marshal Erwin Rommel and his life.
 IMHO he was the greatest commander of any army that has ever been.  What
little I know of him points out that he was a man of great honor and
integrity and while he fought on the side of the Germans in WWII he was
definately not a NAZI stooge, and would not harm innocents, this was
evidenced when he refused to carry out an order to terminate some of his
jewish prisoners.  I would be greatly appreciative if anyone out there
could give me more information on the Field Marshal.  I am also interested
in any of the equipment that was used in the Afrika Korps, especially the
"Grief", and any tanks they used.  Further I would like to hear from anyone
involved in WWII recreation from a unit with the Afrika Korp, and how you
got your equipment, what you have and how I might get involved.  Thanks for
your time and involvement.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Jamison J. Long (AKA Neuromancer, Flag Admiral, Jamie)  [{Founder T.E.R.R.A}]
LONG2469@SPLAVA.CC.PLATTSBURGH.EDU or LONG2469@SNYPLAVA.bitnet

Alia iacta est.  (The Die is Cast.)  -Iulius Caesar, upon crossing the Rubicon.
   {Also the Motto of T.E.R.R.A. [The Embry-Riddle Roleplaying Assoc.]}
 =============================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 15:19:40 PDT
From:    Anthony Anderson <ANTHONYA@VM.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: HOL: Also today 50 years ago

Roger (Brad) poses a most interesting question about
the validity of Holocaust statistics. I cannot begin
to deal with the subject on whole--only with the very specific
situation which I posted earlier. As each train left Westerbork,
a list was compiled of all deportees--containing their names
and ages. All of these lists have been presereved and are
available for inspection at the State Institute for War
Documentation in Amsterdam. Once any transport arrived in
Auschwitz, lists were prepared of all deportees accepted into
the camp. These records have been preserved in a series of
documents entitled Hefte von Auschwitz. No lists were made
of these transportees not admitted (i.e, the ones immediately gassed).
By comparing, however, the lists made in Westerbork with those made in
Auschwitz, it is fairly easy to deduce which specific individuals
survived the initial selection and those who did not.  In
the very specific case of "Van Damm", eye witnesses remembered
him as being led way with those earmarked for the gas chambers.

Anthony Anderson
Los Angeles, CA

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 18:44:16 -0400
From:    David Rising <drising@ACS.BU.EDU>
Subject: Re: U.S. "WAR PLANS" F

On Mon, 5 Sep 1994, Ben Frank wrote:

> What makes you think that German courts run by judges who worked hand in glove
> with the Nazis would have been the epitome of fair-minded justice? If you are
> of that mind, I would like to know what you smoke. Ben Frank

Are you implying that _every_ German (including those who had fled the
Nazi regime and those interned in concentration camps) lawyer and judge
worked hand in glove with the Nazis? I think so. I also think that this
is a very simplistic view of how things were. Do a bit more reasearch
before the next reply. BTW, I quit smoking (tobacco) last May.
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 16:04:03 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: FREE FRENCH FORCES

One aspect of the young Ho's contact with OSS in French IndoChina that
is probably accurate is that he received medical aid (sulfa) from an
OSS medic. Pretty near saved Ho's life.
Ironic, considering Ho's later,er, involvement with Americans...

--

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 19:08:06 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: WEAP: KAMIKAZE TORPEDO

At Okinawa, in addition to the kamikazes and the threat posed by the
Thirty-second Army on the island, U.S. forces were threatened by the baka bomb,
or as known in Japanese, the Okha, suicide boats, and the kaiten, as I be;ieve
the suicide torpedoes were called. They were not successful as the U.S. fleet
at Okinawa knew of this threat and took appropriate defensive measures to
defuse it. Morison writes of them, and they have been referred to in both the
Army's green book on Okinawa, and the Marine Corps' volume V of its WWII
history series. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 19:11:08 -0400
From:    David Rising <drising@ACS.BU.EDU>
Subject: Re: HOL: Also today 50 years ago

On Tue, 6 Sep 1994 coon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU wrote:

>         Lets start off by making this part real clear, THIS IS NOT
> AN ATTEMPT TO DENY THE HOLOCAUST OR THE ANNE FRANK DIARY.  But I am
> curious as to how it is possible to say who died first in any given
> gassing or gas chamber.  Are there records that substantiate this.
> Many of the stories that I have heard, not only from the Holocaust but
> from other terrible events often have the kind of human detail that strikes
> me as unlikely to have been recorded no matter how possible or likely
> that it might be true.

Brad, I think it is likely that you are correct in that it is highly
unlikely that anyone could have figured out who died first in a gassing.
The only thing that I can think of as a possiblity is that one of the
Sonderkommando (prisoners attached to many special details, emptying the
gas chambers of their victims among other things) happened to know Anne
Frank and saw her on the bottom of the pile of people. In a gassing,
since the gas fell downwards, there was always a natural tendency for the
bodies to form a pile as people scrambled upwards for air. The people at
the bottom would have been the first to die. This may seem morbid, it is,
but it is the only way I can think of to explain such an assertion.
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 19:20:33 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: EX-ADMIN: INFLAMATORY

Well said, properly put, and hopefully and end to obfuscation and
know-nothingness. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 19:54:13 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: Re: EX-ADMIN: INFLAMAT

 Like Lou Coatney, you seem to miss the point also. This is a WWII discussion
list, not a political or social history list. I personally do not care to see
anything posted which has nothing to do with World War II matters. This is the
reason I asked to be included on this list, which I consider to be a privilege,
not a right. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 19:50:05 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: HIST: Speer

Warren Thompson wrote,...

>To Alan Wild et al: Please post documentation for the claim that Speer built
>the death camps.
>
>-- Warren Thompson

I myself have relied on previous postings for integrity. I site #11942 sent
by David Rising. I trust there through the nets' resource that the background
is substantiable. Please forward me any concern. -Al

Alan G. Wild
Admin. Computing
University of Rhode Island
Kingston, R.I.  02881

I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 21:02:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 7 SEP 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
THURSDAY, 7 SEPTEMBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): In the Kurile Islands, 6 B-25s on a shipping
sweep attack a small fishing fleet between Paramushiru and Onnekotan Islands.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): 22 B-24s fly fuel to Kunming, China and many
other troop carrier and cargo sorties are flown to numerous CBI terminals.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 24 B-25s attack town areas, river
shipping and trucks in and around Kiyang, Lingling, and Yoyang; 11 B-25s bomb
Tien Ho and White Cloud Airfields at Canton and 2 bomb the Siangtan ferry; 5
B-24s hit 4 freighters SW of Hong Kong; nearly 100 P-40s and P-51s on armed
reconnaissance over vast areas of SE China attack numerous targets of
opportunity including troops, railroad targets, river shipping, warehouses,
and bridges. In French Indochina, 4 P-38s hit targets of opportunity in the
Hanoi-lower Red River area.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, bad weather grounds the
bombers; fighters provide air cover for the US 8th and 29th Infantry
Divisions; the 391st Fighter Squadron, 366th Fighter Group, moves from Dreux
to Laon/Couvron with P-47s; and the 392d Fighter Squadron, 367th Fighter
Group, moves from Cricqueville to Peray with P-38s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): Weather cancels all flying in
France and Italy except for weather reconnaissance by a few P-47s. In France,
HQ 47th Bombardment Group (Light) and the 97th Bombardment Squadron (Light)
move from Poretta, Corsica to Salon with A-20s; the 16th and 18th Troop
Carrier Squadrons, 64th Troop Carrier Group, based at Ciampino, Italy begin
operating from Istres with C-47s; and the 23d Photographic Reconnaissance
Squadron, 5th Photographic Reconnaissance Group [attached to 3d Photographic
Group (Reconnaissance)] ceases operating from Le Luc and returns to base at
Valence; at the same time, a detachment begins operating from Satolas-et-
Bonce with F-5s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): In the Mariana Islands, Saipan Island-based
P-47s make strafing and rocket attacks on Pagan and Aguijan Islands. B-24s on
snooper and armed reconnaissance missions hit Iwo Jima and Marcus Islands.

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): The 873d, 874th and 875th Bombardment
Squadrons (Very Heavy), 498th Bombardment Group (Very Heavy), arrive at Isley
Field, Saipan Island from the US with B-29s (first mission is 28 Oct).

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: B-24s pound Menado
area on Celebes Island and B-25s hit Wasile Bay villages on Halmahera Island;
other B-24s strike Galela in force while P-38s dive-bomb Djailolo and
airfield on Halmahera Island. A-20s bomb Boela Airfield, Ceram Island and
B-25s sink a lugger in Bara Bay. In New Guinea, A-20s hit Mongosah Airfield
while fighter-bombers hit Manokwari Airstrip and villages in the Schouten
Islands and strafe and bomb Wewak Airfield and surrounding areas; and the
25th Liaison Squadron, 91st Photographic Wing (Reconnaissance), moves from
Nadzab to Biak Island with L-5s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

07/0105Z SEP

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 21:18:10 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: HIST: Albert Speer

>> I wrote On Fri, 2 Sep 1994,...
>>
>> I understand the reference to Doenitz,... but what complicity does
>> Albert Speer have with war crimes? As I understand it, he was an
>> inventor and exec in mfg.

Then David wrote,...

>Not only did Speer design many of the concentration camps/gas chambers,
>he also was responsible for putting the German manufacturing sector on a
>war footing. This, some speculate, helped to perpetuate the war for over
>a year. All in all, I think he got what he deserved.
>David Rising

Warren,... David was my reference. In 12006 you asked about it. I hope the
numbers are the same reference on your system. David Rising posted on 2Sep94.
I hope I haven't jumped the gun.

Sincerly, Alan

Alan G. Wild
Admin. Computing
University of Rhode Island
Kingston, R.I.  02881

I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 21:22:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: GEN: INFORMATION ON AIR FORCE HEADQUARTERS IN AFRICA?

 >  September 2, 1994
 >  For a period, during the last half of 1943, my father was a rail bombing
 >officer at the Air Force headquarters commanded by Brig. Gen. Norstad, at La
 >Marsa, near Tunis.  I believe the field was called MacNaff.  His job was to pick
 >rail targets, presumably in Italy but I am not sure of this.
 >  Could tell me a bit about this headquarters?
 >  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

John,

I checked my 7-volume set of THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II by Wesley
Frank Craven and James Lea Cate and this is what I found:


La Marsa was a Luftwaffe and then USAAF base approximately 10 miles NE of
Tunis.  During the invasion of N Africa in Nov 42, Colonel Lauris Norstad
was A-3 (your S-3) of the Twelfth Air Force.  (A-3 is the staff
organization responsible for operations and training).  On 20 Dec 43,
Mediterranean Allied Air Force (MAAF) is activated (retoractive to 10 Dec)
commanded by Air Chief Marshall Tedder and comprised of all Allied air
elements (RAF, USAAF, French, and other) which are operating in the
Mediterranean Theater of Operations.  The head of the Operations and
Intelligence HQ staff was Brigadier General Lauris Norstad and he kept the
job until 16 Jul 44.  I have no indication of where their HQ was.

Hope this helps John.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 21:55:40 -0400
From:    David Rising <drising@ACS.BU.EDU>
Subject: Speer and Concentration Camps (long)

In consulting my sources, it seems that I was exaggerating by contending
that Speer "designed concentration camps/gas chambers. There is no excuse for
my poor memory, I'm sorry. Nonetheless, I think that he did have _a lot_ more
to do with the concentration camps, their construction, and the
deportation of Jews than people tend to know. The following is taken from
_Albert Speer: The End of a Myth_ by Mattias Schmidt, 1982 pp 190-191
without permission.

When he was Minister of Armaments, Speer's jurisdiction became so vast
that he must have had more than hearsay knowledge about the places to
which the Jews were being sent and where these prisoners-in part-helped
manufacture armaments items. He must have had direct knowledge since he
kept himself informed about the conditions of the concentration camps.
His interest, it seems, was prompted by his dismayed observation when he
personally inspected the Mauthausen concentration camp on March 30, 1943.
Here, where the inmates were laboring for his armaments machinery,
housing and other constructions were being built with a generous use of
material. Yet, since construction material was growing ever scarcer
because of the war, Speer was having terrible problems getting hold of
material for agencies whose construction projects were vital to the war
effort. Hence, the generous use of construction material at Mauthausen
struck him as sheer waste.

Minister Speer instantly notified SS-Reichsfuhrer Himmler: "We now have a
shortage of not only iron and wood but also manpower for building
armaments factories for the immediate needs of the fromt lines; yet, on
the occasion of my inspection of the Mauthausen concentration camp, I was
forced to see that the SS is implementing projects that strike me as more
than lavish under present-day conditions."  He certainly did not- Speer
went on- underestimate the task assigned to the concentration camps
within the framework of the war effort. But he felt that the SS could not
continue its constructions along the same lines. "We must therefore carry
out a new planning program for the construction of concentration camps in
terms of utmost effenciency, the use of the least possible amount of
[material and labor], and the greatest success for the present-day
demands of the the armaments industry; i.e., we must immediately switch
to a primitive construction method." In order to learn about the
situation in the other concentration camps, Speer proposed that one of
his assistants, together with a representative of Himmler's, "should
inspect all concentration camps in situ"

Speer's letter to Himmler also pass through the hands of the
SS-Obergruppenfuhrer Oswald Pohl, who, as manager of the SS-factories,
was an ambitious competitor of the Minister of Armaments. Pohl regarded
Speer's letter as "a bit much." The agitated Pohl went on: "Reich
Minister Speer is acting as if we were building on a large scale in the
concentration camps without his knowledge and without any awareness of
the times. He is concealing the fact that every construction project in
the concentration camps has been registered in accordance with
regulations and that he himself issued his authorization on February 2,
1943.... The SS-Reichsfuhrer can therefore see that Reich Minister Speer
has been informed in detail about all construction projects and that he
has also authorized them"

--end--
All typos are my own.

I hope this helps clear up some of the confusion, and, once again, I
apologise for my own role in starting it,
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 21:26:05 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: The first victims of Nazi gas chambers.

In Richard Lukas(sp?)' book, THE FORGOTTEN HOLOCAUST, he
  cites 300 Polish and 700 Soviet POWs as the first,
  experimental victims of the gas chambers at Auschwitz --
  actually, Birkenau.

The Soviets shared their extermination technology with the
  Nazis at Zakopane, Poland, in early 1940 when the NKVD and
  SS got together for a session of collegial coordination.
  The only enhancement the Nazis could add to the Soviet
  techniques would be gas.

See Robert Conquest's recent book, STALIN:  BREAKER OF NATIONS,
  for more details on Zakopane.

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 19:35:51 -0700
From:    Ed Kettler <deradler@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: INF: USN Chronology 09-06-94

The picture you are refering to is probably "Murderer's Row", taken at
the Ulithi Lagoon forward base.

Ed Kettler                                       deradler@netcom.com


On Tue, 6 Sep 1994, Drew Halevy wrote:

> > 1944
> > 09/06 Wed. Aircraft from fast carrier force (Vice Adm. M. A.
> >            Mitscher) composed of 16 carriers, and cruisers and
>
> Wow! The idea of having 16 carriers in one task force. imagaine what it
> would be like for a pre-war Navy person to see the Navy build up to such
> a scale in three years that one task force would have 16 carriers!? I
> have always been impressed by the photo of a lagooon somewhere in the
> South Pacific (around 1944/45) where the carriers simply stretch to the
> horizion. It boggles the mind that so many underestimated the industrial
> capacity of the US in 1940/41. Just a thought-Drew
>
> >
> > Theron P. Keller
> > Logicon, Inc.
> > Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
> > tkeller@logicon.com
> >
>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 23:19:46 -0400
From:    David Rising <drising@ACS.BU.EDU>
Subject: Re: The first victims of Nazi gas chambers.

On Tue, 6 Sep 1994, Louis R. Coatney wrote:

> In Richard Lukas(sp?)' book, THE FORGOTTEN HOLOCAUST, he
>   cites 300 Polish and 700 Soviet POWs as the first,
>   experimental victims of the gas chambers at Auschwitz --
>   actually, Birkenau.

Lou, if I recall correctly, these people were indeed the first people
gassed at Auschwitz, but not in the gas chambers. I know for a fact that
Soviet and Polish POW's were gassed in the basement of a building in
Auschwitz I, (not Birkenau, or Auschwitz II). This was the first use of
Zyklon B gas, the gas later used on others in the main camp of Birkenau.
We could be, however, talking about different situations. It's quite possible
that Soviet and Polish POW's were gassed at Birkenau also.

Once again relying on my memory (this is just the _worst_ time to have put the
majority of my library into storage for a year), I believe that the
single gas chamber that is found in Auschwitz I was built after the war.
This is often used as "proof" by holocaust deniers that the whole thing
was a hoax. They, of course, don't travel the mile down the road to see the
_huge_ (and original) apparatus set up at Auschwitz II.

David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 23:47:41 -0400
From:    Joe Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: ADMIN: I'm back

        I returned from my trip and logged in from home to see if my
request had been heeded.  A quick scan indicates that it was not.  I'm
disheartened that some people (plural, not singular) wanted to keep
the fires going.  It will probably take me a day or two simply to catch
up with all my email.  I ask that everyone be patient as I sort through
the verbiage.  In the meantime, let's get one thing clear -- there are
two members on this list that I *will* coddle and do just about anything
to keep them on the list and they are John Ausland and Ben Frank.  Without
their unique perspectives, this list would not shine as bright.  I will
boot anyone's ass off this list who causes either of them to even think
about unsubscribing.  Call me a Nazi, a censor, a dickhead, I don't care;
but these two men have earned and deserve our respect and courtesy and I
will see that they are not exposed to senseless arguing.  If it means
biting your tongue back, so be it.  If anyone has a problem with the
way I wish to run the list, there are several options.  The two most
obvious ones are to unsubscribe and/or to start another mailing list.
This is not open to debate.  Thank you.
--
Joe Barone, WWII-L listowner
m1b@ssd.ray.com

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 5 Sep 1994 to 6 Sep 1994
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 45 messages totalling 1392 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. WEAP: USS Enterprise (CV-6) (Was: 16 carriers....) (4)
  2. 16 carriers in one ta
  3. 16 carriers in one task force (2)
  4. INF: USN CHRONOLOG
  5. U.S. "WAR PLANS" F (3)
  6. CULPABILITY OF SPE
  7. QUESTION FOR BEN FRANK
  8. FREE FRENCH FORCES
  9. WEAP: Atomic Bombs -Reply
 10. INF: USN Chronology 09-08-94
 11. USS Hornet
 12. INF: 50 Years Ago - 09-SEP-1944
 13. The first victims of Nazi gas chambers.
 14. WEAP: USS Hornet (and other Essex-class carriers) (8)
 15. Preserving Ships (4)
 16. Preserving the *current* ENTERPRISE? (3)
 17. Woman in jail during WWII
 18. Free French Forces
 19. WEAP:Kamikaze torpedoes
 20. [WEAP] Re: Essex class carrier in Charleston
 21. WWII-L Digest - 6 Sep 1994 to 7 Sep 1994
 22. FWD: RE: ROMMEL and/or "The Grief" (2)
 23. [INF] USAAF 9 SEP 44
 24. PRESERVING SHIPS
 25. Rommel
 26. Preserved Naval Vessels

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 7 Sep 1994 20:59:22 -0700
From:    Ed Kettler <deradler@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: WEAP: USS Enterprise (CV-6) (Was: 16 carriers....)

The USS Enterprise was scrapped in 1958.  The Saratoga was expended in
the atomic tests.  Either ship would have been a fine museum, IMHO.

Ed Kettler                                       deradler@netcom.com


On Wed, 7 Sep 1994, Jorge Merino wrote:

> > Lord knows I am rarely humble about an opinion, but everytime I read
> > something like Robert Hohlts, Jr.'s posting I start foaming at the mouth.
> > That the US did not preserve the Enterprise remains one of the great
> > outrages of the post-war era.  No excuse could possibly be adequate.
>
> Surely, I don't understand why the Navy didn't preserve her, and prefered
> to kill her in an atomic test. She could be now a museum, if they only
> could think twice by that time.... now, she's gone.
>
> Jorge Merino
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 03:52:00 UTC
From:    "Edward S. Miller" <e.miller4@GENIE.GEIS.COM>
Subject: Re: 16 carriers in one ta

  > That the US did not preserve the Enterprise remains one of the great
  > outrages of the post-war era.  No excuse could possibly be adequate.
  > (Roger) Brad Coon
  The Enterprise was decomissioned after WWII and laid up with the Reserve
Fleet at Bayonne, NJ.  On 2 October 1956 she was stricken from the Navy List
and ordered put up for sale as scrap.
  Admiral William F. Halsey devoted the retirement years of his life to
preserving the Enterprise.  He resigned his corporate board positions in
1957 to devote full time to the campaign, until he suffered a stroke.  He
passed away in 1959 at the age of 76.  The campaign failed.
  In February 1958 the keel of the world's first nuclear-powered carrier was
laid.  CVAN-65 was named the Enterprise.

  Sources: NavAir, U.S. Naval Aviation 1910-1970.  James M. Merrill,
  =A Sailor's Admiral= (1976), p. 254.

Edward S. Miller   e.miller4@genie.geis.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 7 Sep 1994 21:13:51 -0700
From:    Ed Kettler <deradler@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: 16 carriers in one task force

Hornet was lost during the Battle of Santa Cruz on October 27 1942.  She
went dead in the water after multiple bomb hits and fires.  Attempts to
scuttle her with torpedoes were unsucessful and she was finished off by
Japanese Long Lance torpedoes early on the 27th.

The Essex class Hornet was commissioned in November 1943, and served
through the 1970s.  I looked in the 1993 Combat Fleets of the World, and
the US does not have a ship named Hornet in commission.

Ed Kettler                                       deradler@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 7 Sep 1994 21:37:40 -0700
From:    "Office TH325, Extension 3566" <RIEGSECKER@UPS.EDU>
Subject: Re: 16 carriers in one task force

>From:         GEORGE BAUER <BAUER@VAX1.ROCKHURST.EDU>
>Subject:      Re: 16 carriers in one task force
>
>Where did the Hornet go down in 1942?
>
Off Guadacanal during the Battle of the Santa Cruz Islands.

>Does anybody know how many Hornets there have been since then?  Were they
>all carriers?  Is there a Hornet now?

There was at least one more, CV12.  I'm not positive, but it may
still be at Bremerton, about a dozen miles down the road from me.


John Riegsecker
Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
University of Puget Sound

riegsecker@ups.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 01:06:22 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: Re: INF: USN CHRONOLOG

I imagine that the idea of 16 carriers in one task force kind of boggles the
imagination, bit I recall the invasion fleet for Okinawa forming up in the
Ulithi anchorage, and what a sight it was, with all the carriers, battleships,
cruisers, and the like--a sight never to be seen again. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 01:30:44 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: Re: U.S. "WAR PLANS" F

To David Rising: Well said and appropriately received. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 01:30:47 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: Re: CULPABILITY OF SPE

Thanks again for your posting, although I did not send the message you
responded to. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 01:30:50 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: Re: U.S. "WAR PLANS" F

Thanks for the fill-in, Terry. My response was knee-jerk rather than
thoughtful, and I perhaps should have read more deeply in postwar German
history than I have. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 01:30:52 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: QUESTION FOR BEN FRANK

Lou, the Marine Corps Historical Center is kitty corner to the Naval Historical
Center, both buildings facing on Leutze Park. I'll be certain to give John
Reilly your regards. He is a good friend and valued colleague, and the font of
all knowledge concerning Navy ships.
Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 01:30:55 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: Re: FREE FRENCH FORCES

Someone earlier on this thread mentioned that because there were no French
troops available, the Brits supervised the surrender of the Japanese forces in
French Indo-China, and instead of allowing Ho and his minions to establish a
government, the British troops quashed any trouble raised by Ho and held on
long enough until French colonial troops arrived to resumer their suzereignty
over the Indo-Chinese. I also recall that the Japanese were allowed to keep
their arms, much as they were allowed to do so in North China when the Marine
III Amphibious Corps (1st and 6th Marine Divisions) arrived in Tientsin and
Tsingtao, respectively. The Japanese in North China served as additional
garrison against Chinese communist incursions, as the Japanese in Indo-China
did against Ho's communist forces--one could not call them an armed force at
this point. Again, this is dredged up from my memory, and is sketchy and not
long on facts. This should spur some of the experts on the list to do some
research.
Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 7 Sep 1994 22:06:54 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <jimadams@UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: USS Enterprise (CV-6) (Was: 16 carriers....)

The Saratoga was "nuked" at the Bikini A-bomb test after the war - 1946.
She now lies in about 180 feet of water and was recently surveyed by
divers (1989 & 90) from the National Park Service.

The Enterprise was decommissioned 1947 and sold in 1958.

****************************************************************************
Jim Adams                       jimadams@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.edu
USS Arizona Memorial, NPS        (808) 423-7300
1 Arizona Memorial Place
Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
****************************************************************************

On Wed, 7 Sep 1994, John E. Kollar wrote:

> As far as I could recall, wasn't the big 'E' scrapped after the war?
> The Sara was nuked? I'm having trouble recalling, someone please straighten
> me out.
>
> John E. Kollar
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 04:18:46 -0400
From:    Jeff Olson <jeff.olson@TFD.IGLOU.COM>
Subject: WEAP: Atomic Bombs -Reply

JV.The cruiser arrived at Tinian on July 26.  Also on that date 5 Air Transport
.Command C-54s departed Kirkland AFB.   Three each carried a U235 ring for
.Little Boy.  The two others carried Fat Man's initator and plutonium core.
.These aircraft arrived at Tinian on July 28th.  On the same date, three B-29
.departed Kirkland with the remaining parts of Fat Man, the high explosive pr
.assembly.  These arrived on August 2nd.

I was stationed at Kirtland AFB in 1970 and became acquainted with an
"old timer" who was a security guard when the aircraft took off from
Kirtland enroute to Tinian.  He said they had security guards
stationed every few yards along the runway when the planes took off.
They weren't sure what was in the aircraft but assumed it was some
sort of super weapon.  When the planes got to the end of the runway
they dipped into a shallow gorge and the guards thought they were
going to crash and they all started running the opposite direction.

For years afterwards he thought the airplanes had been carrying the
entire bomb and how foolish it was to try to run away from the
explosion..

I regret that I was not as interested in the war then so I would have
been able to pick his brain for more details..

Jeff
---
. 1st 1.11 #1611 . jeff.olson@tfd.iglou.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 01:33:44 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 09-08-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
09/08 Fri. First German V-2 rocket bomb lands in England.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 7 Sep 1994 22:20:08 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <jimadams@UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: USS Hornet

The Hornet was sunk in Oct 42 at Santa Cruz Island.  This was the seventh
Hornet.  Number eight (CV-12) was launched Aug 43/commissioned Nov 43.
She saw service into Vietnam.

I don't believe there are any ships named Hornet today, definitely no
carriers.

****************************************************************************
Jim Adams                       jimadams@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.edu
USS Arizona Memorial, NPS        (808) 423-7300
1 Arizona Memorial Place
Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
****************************************************************************

On Wed, 7 Sep 1994, GEORGE BAUER wrote:

> Where did the Hornet go down in 1942?
>
> Does anybody know how many Hornets there have been since then?  Were they
> all carriers?  Is there a Hornet now?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>   =========================================================================
>   | DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
>   |                                  | Computers in Business & Education. |
>   | Recently returned from my second | Education:  Curriculum development.|
>   |   extended stay in Prague.       |    International Education, TEFL.  |
>   | Working on second book about     | Central Europe:  Post revolution   |
>   |   Prague and new Czech Republic  |    economic, social, political     |
>   |   and a book about the B-25      |    problems and opportunities.     |
>   |   in WWII.                       | B-25 in WWII.                      |
>   | E-Mail:                          | Free lance writing and editing.    |
>   |   USA:  BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET    | Stamp collecting.                  |
>   |         BAUER@VAX1.ROCKHURST.EDT |                                    |
>   =========================================================================
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 04:43:41 -0700
From:    John Davis <jbd@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 09-SEP-1944

On 09-SEP-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - Units of the US XIX Corps cross the borders of Belgium and
Holland in the area of Maastricht. The French II Corps continues to advance on
Dijon.

Eastern Front - It is announced by Moscow radio that Russian troops have
ceased operations in Bulgaria. The Allies prepare peace terms.

Italian Front - The British V Corps and Canadian I Corps step up their attacks
on the Coriano and Gemmano hills.

Philippines - Aircraft from Marc Mitscher's fast carrier task force commence a
two day strike against Japanese shipping, facilities and aircraft on Mindanao,
P.I.

Foreign Affairs
---------------
France - General de Gaulle appoints a new cabinet. The principal change is the
appointment of Georges Bidault as Foreign Minister.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  jbd@netcom.com
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 07:41:50 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <sep@TVSS2.COMMNET.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: USS Enterprise (CV-6) (Was: 16 carriers....)

John Riegsecker States;

>This is from memory, but I think Enterprise was sold for scrap.


She lives on, in another, stellar form.

see "The Making of Star Trek" by Gene Roddenberry. It contains, among
other things, an overlay of carrier AND starship. NCC1701 was specifically
designed to be just as long as the carrier...

BTW Since Clinton's crew wound up with linen, robes, etc from the Norfolk(?)
after the Normandy anniv., I've tried to purchase, legitimatly, a pair of
USS Enterprise bathrobes without success. Anybody got any pointers?

                                                                Steve

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - sep@trctc.commnet.edu |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 07:46:51 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: U.S. "WAR PLANS" F

Hello, Ben!

Thanks for the note, and you are very welcome. We are all very
fortunate to have you on this list.

Please stay in touch.

Terry

> Thanks for the fill-in, Terry. My response was knee-jerk rather than
> thoughtful, and I perhaps should have read more deeply in postwar German
> history than I have. Ben Frank
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 07:30:37 -0500
From:    Terrance Lewis <tlewis@NEW-ORLEANS.NEOSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: The first victims of Nazi gas chambers.

On Wed, 7 Sep 1994, David Rising wrote:

> On Wed, 7 Sep 1994, Benjamin B. Weber wrote:
>
> > According to my research the first use of Zyklon B gas was on Gypsys.  As
> > I understand it in the winter of 1940, the Nazis took a group of 250 Gypsy
> > children from Brno, Czechoslovakia to test the efficiency of the gas as a
> > means for mass destruction.  Ina R. Friedman mentions this in her book:
> > "The Other Victims: First-Person Stories of Non-Jews Persecuted by the
> > Nazis," (Boston: Houghton Mifflin Co., 1990), p. 10.  Crowe and Kolsti
> > also refer to this in: "The Gypsies of Eastern Europe," (Armonk, New York:
> > M.E. Sharpe, Inc., 1991), p. 18.
> >         I would appreciate comments or clarification on this.
>
> Benjamin,
> Does Ms. Friedman say where she got her information from? I'm not
> doubting it, but I'd always heard that Zyklon B was first used at
> Auschwitz, as Ho"ss set the camp up. This would have been in late 1941.
> Before this, I'd always read that they'd only used the gas vans (such as
> were found at Chelmno). I'm without sources right now, but I think both
> the book _Eichmann Interrogated_ and the autobiography of Ho"ss called
> _Kommendant of Auschwitz_ (I think) comment on their experiments with
> this gas. I do know, however, that the people who ran the Nazi euthanasia
> program were largely the same people who carried out the program of
> genocide. It's quite possible that these individuals experimented with
> this gas earlier (it was a common pesticide if I'm not mistaken). Hope
> this helps,
> David Rising
>

Robert Jay Lifton's 1986 "The Nazi Doctors" also repeats the story of Ho"ss
and his aide Fritzch using  Zyklon-B in August, 1941, but also states in
a footnote that "There is some evidence that Ho"ss and his deputy cannot
claim exclusive "discovery" of Zyklon-B as an agent for killing large
numbers of human beings."  However, he does not mention the gypsies, but
since this preceeds the two above references, that does not negate it.

My understanding has been that there were many people "working" on the
"problem" of how to eliminate prisoners.  I, too, would be interested in
knowing more about the sources.

"T"

   -*-+****************************************************+-*-
   < tlewis@new-orleans.NeoSoft.com   LEWISHISTORY@delphi.com >
   <   Terrance L. Lewis, History Program, Social Sciences    >
   <            Southern University at New Orleans            >
   -*-+****************************************************+-*-

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 10:50:25 CCS
From:    Jorge Merino <jem@VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject: Re: WEAP: USS Enterprise (CV-6) (Was: 16 carriers....)

> As far as I could recall, wasn't the big 'E' scrapped after the war?
> The Sara was nuked? I'm having trouble recalling, someone please straighten
> me out.

Yes, you are right, I was wrong. I was working from memory, so, I made such
a mistake (yuck!!).

Both ships should have been preserved. They were the only survivors of
their respective classes. What a waste!!

Jorge Merino

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 11:01:04 CCS
From:    Jorge Merino <jem@VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject: WEAP: USS Hornet (and other Essex-class carriers)

> >Does anybody know how many Hornets there have been since then?  Were they
> >all carriers?  Is there a Hornet now?
>
> There was at least one more, CV12.  I'm not positive, but it may
> still be at Bremerton, about a dozen miles down the road from me.

Talking about carriers, the only Hornets were the CV-8 and the CV-12.
I hope you are right about her location (Bremerton), because I remember
having heard that the CV-12 was sold for scrap (1973?).

BTW, does anyone of you know how many Essex-class carriers are still
surviving, and where to visit them? I only know about the CV-11 Intrepid
and the CV-16 Lexington (AVT-16, ex-training carrier). Hope there may
be more....

Jorge Merino

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 16:53:26 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <smb@NETMGRS.CO.UK>
Subject: Preserving Ships

Coming from an overcrowded and until recently a major maritime power
(where does the Royal Navy rank in the world size list?),
I am scratching my head to come up with more than two major
warships from our entire maritime history that have been preserved in
any reasonable state. Those two are HMS Victory, Nelson's flagship from
the Battle of Trafalgar (1805), dry-docked in Portsmouth,
and HMS Belfast, a WWII destroyer moored in the Thames. The Mary Rose
doesn't count because, as far as I have been told, it is a few planks
of wood.

[aside: in the early 80's my mother & sister went for a pleasure trip
down the Thames...on passing Belfast, my sister was earnestly informed
by her mother that Belfast had just returned from action in the
Falklands conflict (1982)... Now you all know where I get my
historical attention to detail from...]

Anyway, I am intrigued by the thought of anyone actually trying to
preserve an entire aircraft carrier and not only that, the sentiment
that about 1/2 the US Navy should be preserved. I guess if this sort
of project could succeed anywhere, the US would be it. How close did
the enthusiasts come to preserving the Enterprise, and how much did
they anticipate it costing to maintain it? (obviously not in working
order, but "presentable"). Most of our ships get sold off to other
countries. The rest are scrapped.


Steve Baldwin
smb@netmgrs.co.uk

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 11:18:13 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Preserving the *current* ENTERPRISE?

Steve,

     CV-6 had enough historical value to justify its preservation,
but not CVA-65(no.?).  Also, CV-6 would have tied up -- "preserved"
-- only 20,000 tons of steel, whereas CVAN-65 contains 72,500 tons
of whatever.  (Polmar, 1969.  It's nice to be on Internet at home
-- with my book collection handy.  :-)  )

Lou Coatney


     As a heavy light cruiser, I think BELFAST contains about
14,000 tons, by contrast.

     Another ship we should have saved was SALT LAKE CITY, but
getting it there would have been arduous.  :-)  The beautiful
and lucky CLAA SAN DIEGO would have made a fine memorial.  It
was sistership to ATLANTA and to JUNEAU (on which the 5
Sullivan brothers served and died).

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 11:23:43 -0500
From:    Terrance Lewis <tlewis@NEW-ORLEANS.NEOSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Preserving the *current* ENTERPRISE?

On Thu, 8 Sep 1994, Louis R. Coatney wrote:

>      CV-6 had enough historical value to justify its preservation,
> but not CVA-65(no.?).  Also, CV-6 would have tied up -- "preserved"
> -- only 20,000 tons of steel, whereas CVAN-65 contains 72,500 tons
> of whatever.  (Polmar, 1969.  It's nice to be on Internet at home
> -- with my book collection handy.  :-)  )
>
> Lou Coatney
>
>      As a heavy light cruiser, I think BELFAST contains about
> 14,000 tons, by contrast.
>
>      Another ship we should have saved was SALT LAKE CITY, but
> getting it there would have been arduous.  :-)  The beautiful
> and lucky CLAA SAN DIEGO would have made a fine memorial.  It
> was sistership to ATLANTA and to JUNEAU (on which the 5
> Sullivan brothers served and died).
>

Out of vulgar curiosity, about how much, by comparison does the Alabama
"tie-up" as she sits in Mobile Bay?

"T"

   -*-+****************************************************+-*-
   < tlewis@new-orleans.NeoSoft.com   LEWISHISTORY@delphi.com >
   <   Terrance L. Lewis, History Program, Social Sciences    >
   <            Southern University at New Orleans            >
   -*-+****************************************************+-*-

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 12:44:07 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Woman in jail during WWII

Forwarded--w/o permission, but I doubt the writer will mind--in hopes that
someone will know something (-:  If you do, please note the addresses &
reply either to literary@bitnic.bitnet, or to the original writer.  Thanx
on that person's behalf.

ken koester
maint2@ers.bitnet
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Hello everyone,

I am writing ch 2 of my novel about Croatia. The heroine is now in a
Gestapo jail in Zagreb. Does anyone out there know what conditions might
have been like in a Croatian (Yugoslav) jail during WWII. Also, if you'd
like me to e-mail you Ch1 of the book for your review, please let me know.

Thank you very much, Tammy

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 13:08:46 -0400
From:    Ron Babuka <wrb1@CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: USS Hornet (and other Essex-class carriers)

>
>BTW, does anyone of you know how many Essex-class carriers are still
>surviving, and where to visit them? I only know about the CV-11 Intrepid
>and the CV-16 Lexington (AVT-16, ex-training carrier). Hope there may
>be more....
>

There is a carrier (along with a Sumner-class Destroyer and submarine) that
has been turned into a museum in Charleston, South Carolina but my memory
from that visit 8 years ago is so bad that I wouldn't even phantom a guess
as to name and class.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka                                         National Warplane Museum
Cornell University                                 Geneseo, New York
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 10:22:00 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <riegsecker@UPS.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: USS Hornet (and other Essex-class carriers)

>> There was at least one more, CV12.  I'm not positive, but it may
>> still be at Bremerton, about a dozen miles down the road from me.
>
>Talking about carriers, the only Hornets were the CV-8 and the CV-12.
>I hope you are right about her location (Bremerton), because I remember
>having heard that the CV-12 was sold for scrap (1973?).


Looks like a trip to Bremerton is in order to take inventory.  At least in
the recent past there were several old carriers with low numbers next to
the highway.


John Riegsecker                                 (206) 756-3566
Dept of Math and Computer Science               riegsecker@ups.edu
University of Puget Sound

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 13:12:16 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Free French Forces

On Fri, 2 Sep 1994 17:49:11 CDT Henry Sirotin said:
>To the best of my knowledge, other than reoccupying Indochina after the
>Japanese forces there surrendered to the Chinese, the French military
>played no direct role against the Japanese. Individuals did cooperate
>(interesting, I almost wrote collaborate) with the OSS in Indochina,
>I believe, but I'm hazier on this than I ought to be.
>
Fall discusses this in =Street without Joy=, I believe.  The French tried
to resist the Japanese for several days, broadcasting frantic appeals for
help, but with a completely obsolescent military establishment in Indochina,
rapidly succombed.  Since Vichy was "collaborationist", neither Britain nor
the US were inclined to aid the French forces in Indochina in 1940.  (The
Brits had their hands full anyways.)  I don't remember what Fall has to
say about the OSS in Indochina, but there wasn't much action to speak of.

ken koester
maint2@ers.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 12:47:06 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP:Kamikaze torpedoes

Hello, Ed and Bill!

The submarines found or used at Pearl Harbor by the Japanese were
midget submarines. The Kaiten weapon didn't come along until later,
1944 and 1945.

Hope this helps.

Terry


> You know, I'm not really sure.  The midgets used at Pearl certainly
> weren't Kaiten.  I do recall the Kaiten at the museum because its
> operational descriptions were very similar to earlier posts regarding the
> lack of accuracy and/or success of the Kaitens.


> On Tue, 6 Sep 1994, Ed Kettler wrote:
>
> > Bill,
> >
> > There is supposed to be one of the Japanese midget subs used in the Pearl
> > Harbor attack on display at Pearl.  Is the a Kaiten too?
> >
> > Ed Kettler                                       deradler@netcom.com
> >
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 12:55:14 CDT
From:    Robert Hohlt <rhohlt@MGMSERV1.MGM.SAIC.COM>
Subject: [WEAP] Re: Essex class carrier in Charleston

>There is a carrier (along with a Sumner-class Destroyer and submarine) that
>has been turned into a museum in Charleston, South Carolina but my memory
>from that visit 8 years ago is so bad that I wouldn't even phantom a guess
>as to name and class.

>Ron Babuka

Ron,

I think that is the Yorktown (CV-10).

Robert Hohlt, Jr.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 13:43:37 -0500
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: WWII-L Digest - 6 Sep 1994 to 7 Sep 1994

> From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
> Subject: Re: Liberation of Paris
>
>        Canadians are particularly proud of the role of our soldiers
> in the the liberation of parts of Belgium and Holland. There was a delegation
> of Canadian veterans as guest of honour of the Mayor of Antwerp earlier
> this week.  As he said, through tears, "Thank you, Canada, for our liberation.
> In the words of Kipling, 'Your name liveth for evermore..."
>         It will be the same in Holland soon.  The Dutch have a very special
> regard for Canadians, ever since the Liberation.

If you ever want to go to Belgium or Holland and eat, drink or stay
anywhere for free just sew a Canadian flag patch to your backpack and
you are set for the duration of your stay.  The Dutch and Belgian
people are *very* fond of Canadians.

Try asking where the bathroom is in Paris while showing an American
flag anywhere.....  Consider yourself lucky just to be ignored.
Better results can be had if your Parisian accent is flawless but
just asking in French will not cut it either.

Cheers, Bill Huber

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 14:12:36 CDT
From:    Robert Hohlt <rhohlt@MGMSERV1.MGM.SAIC.COM>
Subject: Preserving Ships

>Coming from an overcrowded and until recently a major maritime power
>(where does the Royal Navy rank in the world size list?),
>I am scratching my head to come up with more than two major
>warships from our entire maritime history that have been preserved in
>any reasonable state. Those two are HMS Victory, Nelson's flagship from
>the Battle of Trafalgar (1805), dry-docked in Portsmouth,
>and HMS Belfast, a WWII destroyer moored in the Thames. The Mary Rose
>doesn't count because, as far as I have been told, it is a few planks
>of wood.

> Stephen Baldwin

Stephen,

I pulled this from one of the ftp sites I got from this WWII list.
Maritime / Naval Museums from your neighborhood:


UNITED KINGDOM
ENGLAND
Birkenhead, Merseyside
East Float Dock
HMS Plymouth    FFG
HMS Onyx        SS
Both Falklands veterans. Plymouth is a Type 12 Rothesay class
frigate.  Onyx is an Oberon class sub.

Chatham, Kent
The Historic Dockyard
0634 812551
Wednesday through Sunday

Duxford (near Cambridge)
Imperial War Museum
Expunger        SS
Stickelback     SS
X-craft submarine
Fast patrol boat (circa 1920's)

Duxford Air Musuem
Midget submarine
Some naval aircraft and a piece of Tirpitz's belt armour.

Gosport (across from Portsmouth)
Submarine Museum
Holland 1       SS
Walk-through tour of full-size sub, also very early submarine.

Kirkbean
On the Solway Firth
Cottage where John Paul Jones was born. Opens officially
July 6th, 1993.

London
Imperial War Museum
Lambeth Road
01-735-8922

London
Science Museum

London
Thames River
Cutty Sark      Clipper ship
Belfast         CL
Belfast is WWII era. Cutty Sark is at Greenwich, downriver from
the Belfast.

Portsmouth Dockyard
Portsmouth, West Sussex
HMS Mary Rose   Restoration project of 15th century ship
HMS Victory     Nelson's flagship at Trafalgar
HMS Warrior     Trend-setting 1860's armored frigate
May be getting a small WW1 monitor.
Several first class museums in the area.

Yeovilton, Ilchester, Somerset
Royal Naval Air Station
Fleet Air Arm Museum
0935-840551 ext. 521

SCOTLAND
Glasgow
The Clyde
Warship

Irvine
Scottish Maritime Museum

********************
Hope this helps you.

And to verify my last posting I got this too:

New York City
Intrepid Sea-Air-Space Museum
Pier 88, 12th and West 46th
(212) 245-2533
Intrepid        CV 11
Edson           DD 933
Growler         SSG 577  (Take 'er down!)
Nantucket Lightship #?
Naval tug (?)
Flight deck and hanger hold large display of carrier aircraft, including
and SR-71. Vehicles and planes on display on pier. Museum inside carrier
has wide range of displays, including models and a film on carrier
operations.


South Carolina
Mt.Pleasant
Patriot's Point Naval and Maritime Museum
(803) 884-2727
Yorktown        CV 10
Laffey          DD 724
Clamagore       SS 343
Ingham          USCG Cutter
Savannah        Nuclear powered cargo ship
Bills itself as World's Largest Naval Museum.  Savannah is only nuclear
powered commercial vessel ever built. Cutters served in Atlantic in
WWII on U-boat patrol.


I don't know when this information was put into the ftp database
but there it is.  It had no information on the Bremerton yards though.


Regards,


Robert Hohlt, Jr.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 15:16:15 -0500
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: USS Hornet (and other Essex-class carriers)

Isn't the second-generation Yorktown (I think its CA-10) an Essex-class??
Its fully preserved at Patriots Point in Charleston, SC (and well worth a
visit-- I was down there in May).

Regards

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 15:46:47 -0500
From:    "J. Long" <LONG2469@SNYPLAVA.BITNET>
Subject: FWD: RE: ROMMEL and/or "The Grief"

Date sent:  8-SEP-1994 15:33:41

Thank you so very much for this info, while you have given me some
interesting information to mull-over, I still from my previous research
think Rommel was a superb leader.  Few if any others would be willing to
take as active a role in the battles he led.  Further from my research he
was not exaclty favored by hitler.  When Hitler wished to open a third
front Rommel advised that Hitler should keep his tank production at pace
with the Russian production of anti-tank weapons.  Hitler quickly dismissed
Rommels advice, and that was a small part of why Germany did poorly in the
Further Rommel had made himself some interesting enemies, I.E. Herman
Goerhing.  Goerhing started to despise Rommel when during a parade in which
Rommel had been made the security provider he would not allow Goehring to
proceed down a rode that Hitler had recently driven down.
        Perhaps these are not good cases of Rommels life, but then again
how are we to ever know what he would have been like in a time of non-war.
I still personally feel that it was a great tragedy when The Field Marshal
was forced to chose between a fraudulant public trial or taking his own
life.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Jamison J. Long (AKA Neuromancer, Flag Admiral, Jamie)  [{Founder T.E.R.R.A}]
LONG2469@SPLAVA.CC.PLATTSBURGH.EDU or LONG2469@SNYPLAVA.bitnet

Alia iacta est.  (The Die is Cast.)  -Iulius Caesar, upon crossing the Rubicon.
   {Also the Motto of T.E.R.R.A. [The Embry-Riddle Roleplaying Assoc.]}
 =============================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 16:28:19 CCS
From:    Jorge Merino <jem@VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject: Re: WEAP: USS Hornet (and other Essex-class carriers)

Here is a list of some Essex-class carriers I can recall from memory
now, I hope someone of you could complete/correct this list. I think
they are the oldest fleet carriers now surviving. Ok, here is the list:

No.     Name                 Status
-------------------------------------------------------------------
CV-9    Essex                Sold for scrap
CV-10   Yorktown             Museum at Charleston, S. Carolina
CV-11   Intrepid             Museum at New York?
CV-12   Hornet               Sold for scrap?
CV-13   Frankiln
CV-14   Ticonderoga
CV-15   Randolph
CV-16   Lexington            Ex-training carrier (AVT-16), museum
CV-17   Bunker Hill
CV-18   Wasp
CV-19   Hancock
CV-20   Bennington
CV-21   Boxer
CV-31   Bon Homme Richard
CV-34   Oriskany

Jorge Merino

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 16:37:21 -0400
From:    "John E. Kollar" <KILLAR@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU>
Subject: Re: Preserving Ships

Steve

Well, sorry, but the Belfast is a Light Cruiser, she's a beauty though
I got to visit her a couple of years ago.  I'm not sure, but was the
Victory saved by accident, ie didn't it sit forgotten, except for
its job as a barracks ship, for 50+ years, wait, I'll look it up
over the weekend and report on Monday.  The second thing is that
naval power is:  US, France, Russia(if the ships had fuel, crews, and
weapons), then probably Britain, although britain would be hard pressed
to mount an offensive operation against several navies, Japan, India,
etc.  If China does buy the old Soviet carrier, look for them overtaking
the UK too,  sorry.


John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 16:52:49 -0400
From:    "John E. Kollar" <KILLAR@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: USS Hornet (and other Essex-class carriers)

I can attest to the Intrepid being a museum at NYC, it's a wonderful place,
new navy ships pull in all the time across from it to visit the CV.
One of the coolest things I saw was when the Kennedy came into NYC and
docked a berth or two away from the Intrepid, boy what a contrast, the
new CVs are bloody huge.  I was there the day they brought the SR-71 aboard,
when they were pulling the plane up with the crane and swinging it aboard,
the plane spun a little too much and put it's wing into the crane!  The
surprising thing is that when we later surveyed the damage, the piece was
not of metal but of cardboard.  It seems that when the AF was getting ready\
to give us the plane, they replaced several panels on the plane, both leading
edge and regular wing panels, with cardboard makeups (or that they flew a
plane at Mach 3+ with cardboard to avoid radar, which I personally doubt)
The engines are huge, I could stanmd up in the engine compartment (that's
right, they kept the engines too!) and I'm 6' tall.  I could also walk around
the plane, and below it without hitting my head, the landing gear are really
big.  We got to climb all over it without people around, the public wasn't
allowed near it yet, some of the electronics were still in it, but before
I could start trying to play with them my schdule changed and I couldn't
volunteer my time any more (aaarrrrgggghhhh!!!) I am hoping to get
involved again down their, and I'll pass on any more I learn.  They
have many many planes there, from the YF-17 through Panthers, choppers, etc.
Anyone in NYC should take a look at it, and if you're lucky a Tico class
CG or Burke class DDG will be parked next to it.

John E. Kollar
saoory for the length (and spelling) but it's really a cool place

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 16:01:23 +0000
From:    Josh Talbert <Samuel_Talbert@BAYLOR.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: USS Hornet (and other Essex-class carriers)

>BTW, does anyone of you know how many Essex-class carriers are still
>surviving, and where to visit them? I only know about the CV-11 Intrepid
>and the CV-16 Lexington (AVT-16, ex-training carrier). Hope there may
>be more....
>
>Jorge Merino

I know of a WWII-era carrier which was recently turned into a floating museum in
Corpus Cristi, TX.  It opened as a museum in 1992.  I remember reading about it
in the local papers when it opened, but I don't remember the name or class :(.
This particular carrier was commissioned in either the spring or summer of 1945.
Hope this helps some, as vague as it is.

Josh Talbert
Samuel_Talbert@baylor.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 17:15:05 -0500
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: FWD: RE: ROMMEL and/or "The Grief"

In reply to an earlier post on this topic, re:Rommel's tactics: just for the
record, it was a right hook, as the Afrika Korps was always attacking from
west to east, moving south around the British left in the Libyan/Egyptian desert...also, as far as the alledgedly simplistic nature of Rommel's tactics is
concerned, two thoughts: 1.) successful tactics are often dictated by the
ground being fought over, and how well a commander adapts to the prevailing
conditions of the terrain.  I.e, whatever works works, and that is what often
defines "good" tactics.  2.) Much of Rommel's reputation as a tactician came
from his ability to improvise once a battle had begun, and to respond to crises
and/or opportunities as they arose.  In this he had to thank the general
emphasis on field improvisation and lower-ranks initiative in the German Army
but it remains a fact that the Afrika Korps generally was far superior to the
British forces in this area.  And one final note, while agreeing that
Montgomery could both hold a line and win battles that the odds said he should
win, the fact that he beat Rommel is less a reflection on Rommel's tactical
expertise than on the overwhelming British material superiority.  Its no
knock on Rommel that an army with a numerical superiority of almost three to
one, complete control of the air, 1,000+ tanks against 550 (counting the lower
quality Italian vehicles), with 1,000 more in reserve, and 500 Shermans against
30 long-barreled Panzer IV's, etc, etc, was able to beat him.  The true measure of Rommel's leadership is that his vastly inferior forces gave the British fits
for two years, despite a number of admitted tactical errors on his part.

Regards

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 17:20:46 -0500
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Preserving Ships

I visited the Belfast a long time ago.  This is the second post I've seen
referring to the ship as a light cruiser.  Is my memory screwy, or wasn't
the Belfast actually a heavy cruiser with 8-inch guns?? Or maybe a
Southhampton- or similar class hybrid, usually in the heavy cruiser range in
terms of tonnage (9400 tons) but with 12 6-inch guns??  Part of my inquiry is
based on the fact that all the British heavy cruisers I'm aware of were named
after cities or counties (Suffolk, Birmingham, York, Kent, etc) while the light
ones had names based on mythology or something similar (Penelope, Aurora,
etc.)  I'm sure someone out there can answer this one.

Regards

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 20:48:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 9 SEP 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
SATURDAY, 9 SEPTEMBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-6, North American Mustang
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  Mosquito, deHavilland
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 6 B-25s hunt shipping off Paramushiru Island;
4 return to Attu Island, Aleutian Islands with bombs, finding no targets; one
hits the mast of a vessel and ditches in the water; the other lands on one
engine in Petropavlovsk, USSR; 3 B-24s make an uneventful raid during the
night of 9/10 Sep on Kashiwabara, Paramushiru Island; later 2 photo planes
escorting 2 bombers over the Kurile Islands on a mapping project are attacked
by fighters which inflict no damage.

  CARIBBEAN (Sixth Air Force): The 29th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), VI
Bomber Command, moves from Howard Field, Canal Zone to Rio Hato, Panama with
B-24s.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 9 B-25s bomb a Japanese HQ and
other buildings at Manwing; 17 B-24s run fuel to Kunming, China; numerous
other transport sorties are flown to several points in the CBI.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 24 B-25s hit river traffic and
troop compounds in areas around Kiyang, Lingling, and Lingkwantien, bomb the
towns of Lingling and Samshui, and knock out the W end of a bridge at
Lingling; about 50 P-40s and P-51s hit numerous targets of opportunity
throughout inland SE China including rivercraft and troop areas around
Lingling, Lupao, Tsingyun, Kiyang, Leiyang, and Yungfengshih, and a railroad
bridge at Tunganhsien; 5 B-24s over the S China Sea claim 4 freighters sunk
or heavily damaged; and the 322d Troop Carrier Squadron, Fourteenth Air
Force, is activated at Kunming with C-47s.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 3 missions are flown.
  Mission 613: 68 of 72 B-17s fly Operation GRASSY to drop 180 containers of
supplies to French Resistance Fighters 25 miles (40 km) S of Besancon without
loss. Escort is provided by 30 of 32 P-51s without loss.
  Mission 614: 1,140 bombers and 435 fighters are dispatched to hit targets
in W Germany; the primaries are attacked by both visual and PFF means; 14
bombers and 1 fighter are lost:
  1. 419 B-17s are dispatched to hit the marshalling yard at Mannheim (387);
2 others hit targets of opportunity; 5 B-17s are lost and 197 damaged; 10
airmen are WIA and 54 MIA. Escort is provided by 140 of 152 P-51s without
loss.
  2. 337 B-24s are dispatched to hit the marshalling yard at Mainz (265);
targets of opportunity are the marshalling yard at Worms (24) and Koblenz
(6); 3 B-24s are lost, 3 damaged beyond repair and 104 damaged; 5 airmen are
KIA and 33 MIA. Escort is provided by 125 of 128 P-51s without loss.
  3. 384 B-17s are dispatched to an armaments plant at Dusseldorf (251);
targets of opportunity are Bonn (12), Leverkusen (11) and others (16); 6
B-17s are lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 148 damaged; 2 airmen are KIA, 3
WIA and 63 MIA.  Escort is provided by 142 of 155 P-51s; 1 P-51 is lost.
  Mission 618: 7 of 7 B-17s drop leaflets on Belgium, France and Germany
during the night.
  VIII Fighter Command fighter-bomber missions:
  1. 44 P-47s sweep the Lingen-Munster-Haltern area to spot flak positions
and troop concentrations and strafe an airfield; they claim 1-1-0 aircraft in
the air and on the ground.
  2. 196 P-47s and P-51s bomb and strafe shipping between the German mainland
and Schouwen, Overflakee and Walcheren Islands, the Netherlands,
installations on the islands, and rail and road traffic NW and NE of
Frankfurt/Main; they claim 13-0-5 aircraft in the air and on the ground; 7
P-47s and 1 P-51 are lost; 1 P-47 and 1 P-51 are damaged beyond repair and 14
P-47s and 3 P-51s are damaged; 1 pilot is WIA and 7 MIA.
  40 B-24s and C-47s fly CARPETBAGGER mission during the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): B-26s fly a leaflet mission to
coastal France and Belgium. In France, fighters fly escort, furnish ground
force cover for the US VIII Corps in the Brest area, the 2d, 5th, and 8th
Infantry Divisions of the US Third Army's XX Corps area W of Metz, and fly
armed reconnaissance in areas around Nancy, and Aachen, Cologne, Koblenz,
Bonn, and Saarbrucken, Germany; fighters also hit bridges at Custines and
Pompey; 700+ C-47s fly missions; HQ 71st Fighter Wing moves from Rennes to
Versailles; the 15th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron, 10th Photographic
Group (Reconnaissance), moves from Chateaudun to St Dizier with F-6s; the
96th Troop Carrier Squadron, 440th Troop Carrier Group, moves from Bottesford,
England to Reims with C-47s; the detachment of the 112th Liaison Squadron,
Ninth Air Force, operating from Valognes with L-5s, returns to base at
Jullouville; and the 160th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron, 363d Tactical
Reconnaissance Group, moves from Azeville to Montrevil with F-6s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-26s achieve excellent
results against rail bridges in the E Po Valley while B-25s bomb troop
concentrations and supply points S of Bologna; fighter-bombers and fighters
attack railways and roads in the Po Valley and from Genoa to Turin; motor
transport and rolling stock are bombed and strafed in N Italy and E France,
with particular success in the Belfort-Mulhouse-Freiburg, France areas; and
the detachment of the 416th Night Fighter Squadron, 62d Fighter Wing,
operating from Pomigliano with Mosquitos, returns to base at Rosignano. In
France, the 111th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron, XII Tactical Air Command,
moves from Valence to Satolas-et-Bonce with F-6s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): A B-24 on a snooper mission from Saipan Island
bombs Iwo Jima Island during the night of 9/10 Sep. B-25s based in the
Gilbert Islands bomb Nauru Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: B-24s bomb
Mapanget Airfield, Celebes Island. 100+ fighter-bombers and A-20s pound
airfields in the Moluccas Islands, i.e., Liang on Ambon Island, Haroekoe on
Haroekoe Island, Boela on Ceram Island, and Namlea on Buru Island. B-24s hit
Galela Airfield on Halmahera Island. In New Guinea, fighter-bombers hit
Moemi, Manokwari, and Ransiki airstrips while B-25s hit Babo Airfield; and HQ
417th Bombardment Group (Light) moves from Saidor to Noemfoor Island.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

09/0051Z/SEP

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 21:45:37 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: PRESERVING SHIPS

Steve, as you may know, the Intrepid has been preserved and serves as the
center for an outstanding naval museum. I passed her by last week and her
flight deck was chock-a-block with all sorts of naval and Marine aircraft.
There is a submarine, a destroyer, and other sundry types of warships there.
Because of the traffic, and I was driving, I couldn't pick them all out. The
drive to save the Intrepid and form a naval/military museum on or rather at a
Hudson River dock was a mighty endeavor which has proved successful. Then there
is the carrier at Charleston, sadly I have forgotten her name, and other major
naval combatants preserved elsewhere in the States. Perhaps this posting could
begin a thread with all the experts chiming in re/location of preserved naval
craft. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 22:03:00 -0500
From:    Colin Brace <BRACEC@A1.MGH.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Rommel

          Jamison,
                    I am presently reading THE ROMMEL PAPERS, edited by B. H.
          Liddell-Hart, ISBN 0-306-80157-4 (paperback)DeCapo Press, Inc. NY,
          NY.  These are his own papers, diaries, etc. compiled with the
          assistance of Rommel's wife and son. Interesting and readable. This
          may be of intrest, if you haven't read it already.

          Hope this helps.

          Colin Brace WA1KWA

          bracec@a1.mgh.harvard.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 22:24:00 -0500
From:    Colin Brace <BRACEC@A1.MGH.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Preserved Naval Vessels

          Ben,
               We have the destroyer USS CASSION YOUNG here in the
          Charlestown Navy Yard NHP (Boston), moored right behind the (oldest
          in use, I believe) drydock that the USS CONSTITUTION (worlds oldest
          comissoned warship) is presently in. Sorry I don't remember the
          CASSION YOUNG's number, but she is representative of the type that
          was built here in Charlestown, during WW2, even though the CASSION
          YOUNG was actually built in San Diego.

          There is also the USS MASSACHUSETTS in Fall River, and a sub, a
          destroyer the last time I was there, but it's been a while.

          Hope this is what your looking for.

          Colin Brace WA1KWA

          bracec@a1.mgh.harvard.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 19:39:08 -0700
From:    Ed Kettler <deradler@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: WEAP: USS Hornet (and other Essex-class carriers)

USS Yorktown is preserved at Patriots Point, SC, near Charleston.

Ed Kettler                                       deradler@netcom.com


On Thu, 8 Sep 1994, Jorge Merino wrote:

> > >Does anybody know how many Hornets there have been since then?  Were they
> > >all carriers?  Is there a Hornet now?
> >
> > There was at least one more, CV12.  I'm not positive, but it may
> > still be at Bremerton, about a dozen miles down the road from me.
>
> Talking about carriers, the only Hornets were the CV-8 and the CV-12.
> I hope you are right about her location (Bremerton), because I remember
> having heard that the CV-12 was sold for scrap (1973?).
>
> BTW, does anyone of you know how many Essex-class carriers are still
> surviving, and where to visit them? I only know about the CV-11 Intrepid
> and the CV-16 Lexington (AVT-16, ex-training carrier). Hope there may
> be more....
>
> Jorge Merino
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 19:48:00 -0700
From:    Ed Kettler <deradler@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Preserving the *current* ENTERPRISE?

Alabama displaces 34,791 tons (Light ship) and 44-47,000 tons (full
load).  The full load range is due to lack of complete data in US
Battleships of WW2, Dulin and Garzke.

Ed Kettler                                       deradler@netcom.com


On Thu, 8 Sep 1994, Terrance Lewis wrote:

> On Thu, 8 Sep 1994, Louis R. Coatney wrote:
>
> >      CV-6 had enough historical value to justify its preservation,
> > but not CVA-65(no.?).  Also, CV-6 would have tied up -- "preserved"
> > -- only 20,000 tons of steel, whereas CVAN-65 contains 72,500 tons
> > of whatever.  (Polmar, 1969.  It's nice to be on Internet at home
> > -- with my book collection handy.  :-)  )
> >
> > Lou Coatney
> >
> >      As a heavy light cruiser, I think BELFAST contains about
> > 14,000 tons, by contrast.
> >
> >      Another ship we should have saved was SALT LAKE CITY, but
> > getting it there would have been arduous.  :-)  The beautiful
> > and lucky CLAA SAN DIEGO would have made a fine memorial.  It
> > was sistership to ATLANTA and to JUNEAU (on which the 5
> > Sullivan brothers served and died).
> >
>
> Out of vulgar curiosity, about how much, by comparison does the Alabama
> "tie-up" as she sits in Mobile Bay?
>
> "T"
>
>    -*-+****************************************************+-*-
>    < tlewis@new-orleans.NeoSoft.com   LEWISHISTORY@delphi.com >
>    <   Terrance L. Lewis, History Program, Social Sciences    >
>    <            Southern University at New Orleans            >
>    -*-+****************************************************+-*-
>

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 7 Sep 1994 to 8 Sep 1994
***********************************************

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There are 55 messages totalling 1768 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. PRESERVING SHIPS (11)
  2. WWII-L Digest - 6 Sep 1994 to 7 Sep 1994
  3. USS SARATOGA (2)
  4. Preserving Ships (5)
  5. INF: 50 Years Ago - 10-SEP-1944
  6. INF: USN Chronology 09-09-94
  7. USS Saratoga
  8. Preserved Naval Vessels (7)
  9. HELP ON AIR FORCE WINGS?
 10. HUMOR: Visiting France (3)
 11. Saratoga
 12. PT Boats (2)
 13. "Point of order":  USCG cutter actually at Honolulu
 14. Preserved World War II ships book (2)
 15. WEAP: USS Enterprise (CV-6) (Was: 16 carriers....)
 16. Fate of USS ENTERPRISE, CV-6
 17. Post Washington Treaty U.S. BBs (2)
 18. WEAP: Essex-class carriers
 19. WEAP: USS Hornet (and other Essex-class carriers)
 20. General Belgrano: Ship
 21. PT Boat "Museum"
 22. MEDIA: Monty's PJs (2)
 23. General Belgrano
 24. POW/MIA Ceremony at Travis AFB.
 25. POST WASHINGTON TR
 26. [INF] USAAF 10 SEP 44
 27. Ship Museums
 28. Preserved World WarII ships book

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 21:05:54 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: PRESERVING SHIPS

> Perhaps this posting could begin a thread with all the experts
> chiming in re/location of preserved naval craft. Ben Frank

Well, I'm no expert, but this would be GREAT!  I can continue:

The submarine USS Torsk is what I would describe as fully preserved in
Baltimore's Inner Harbor.  I say this with no clue as to what exactly
qualifies as being "fully preserved".  The boat is afloat, but not
currently mobile under her own power as far as I know.  She is set up
as a tourist attraction along with a lightship, and a retired Coast
Guard Cutter (which saw action at Pearl Harbor during the raid, BTW).

I recently paid at least my THIRD visit to the Torsk, and was
delighted to spend about 30 minutes in conversation with one of the
WWII sub vets who man the boat during operating hours.  He served
aboard the USS Spot I believe, and told us of still today spending
time with his "captain" while their wives go shopping.  Though I've
read, and re-read the accounts of the Tang, Wahoo, and many others,
it's a little different hearing it from the mouth of one who was
there, and in whose eyes you can watch the memories - the pride - and
the pain - return as he tells the story one more time.

An incredible way to spend an afternoon for a guy (me) who was
originally bitten by the WWII bug in the form of such literature as
"Up Periscope", "Run Silent, Run Deep", and "Clear the Bridge".

Thanks Ben, great idea.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA 22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 18:33:28 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <jimadams@UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Re: PRESERVING SHIPS

Small point of order... the coast guard cutter you are referring to was
not actually in Pearl Harbor, she was in Honolulu Harbor, a few miles
down the road.

****************************************************************************
Jim Adams                       jimadams@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.edu
USS Arizona Memorial, NPS        (808) 423-7300
1 Arizona Memorial Place
Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
****************************************************************************

On Thu, 8 Sep 1994, Keller, Theron P. wrote:

> > Perhaps this posting could begin a thread with all the experts
> > chiming in re/location of preserved naval craft. Ben Frank
>
> Well, I'm no expert, but this would be GREAT!  I can continue:
>
> The submarine USS Torsk is what I would describe as fully preserved in
> Baltimore's Inner Harbor.  I say this with no clue as to what exactly
> qualifies as being "fully preserved".  The boat is afloat, but not
> currently mobile under her own power as far as I know.  She is set up
> as a tourist attraction along with a lightship, and a retired Coast
> Guard Cutter (which saw action at Pearl Harbor during the raid, BTW).
>
> I recently paid at least my THIRD visit to the Torsk, and was
> delighted to spend about 30 minutes in conversation with one of the
> WWII sub vets who man the boat during operating hours.  He served
> aboard the USS Spot I believe, and told us of still today spending
> time with his "captain" while their wives go shopping.  Though I've
> read, and re-read the accounts of the Tang, Wahoo, and many others,
> it's a little different hearing it from the mouth of one who was
> there, and in whose eyes you can watch the memories - the pride - and
> the pain - return as he tells the story one more time.
>
> An incredible way to spend an afternoon for a guy (me) who was
> originally bitten by the WWII bug in the form of such literature as
> "Up Periscope", "Run Silent, Run Deep", and "Clear the Bridge".
>
> Thanks Ben, great idea.
>
> Theron P. Keller
> Logicon, Inc.
> Dahlgren, VA 22448 USA
> tkeller@logicon.com
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 23:40:52 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: WWII-L Digest - 6 Sep 1994 to 7 Sep 1994

THanks for your note, Bill.
        As for the ungracious attitude of Parisians towards Americans nowadays. Who expects gratitude ?
:-)
PS: I notice that Parisian waiters are every bit as nasty to *French*
tourists, too!

--

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 21:03:12 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <jimadams@UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Re: PRESERVING SHIPS

Great idea Ben - to start a thread to get more ships protected.  In
Hawaii we are hoping to get a Pearl Harbor veteren, the tugboat HOGA
saved.  she is presently in Oakland, California where she has just
retired.  The navy is looking into how much money it would take to repair
her hull and ship to Hawaii for someone to display; but they are also
going out for bids to scrap her as an alternative.
        Next week I will be attending two conferences in Boston at the
Charlestown Navy Yard dealing the preservation of historically
significant ships.  They are being sponsored by the Naval Historical
Center, the National Park Service, National Maritime Alliance, and others.
        From there, I will travel to NYC to visit the Intrepid, as well
as other maritime museums in the area.  Hope to learn lots of good stuff
to bring back to the Arizona Memorial.

****************************************************************************
Jim Adams                       jimadams@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.edu
USS Arizona Memorial, NPS        (808) 423-7300
1 Arizona Memorial Place
Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
****************************************************************************

On Thu, 8 Sep 1994, Ben Frank wrote:> Steve, as you may know, the Intrepid has been preserved and serves as the
> center for an outstanding naval museum. I passed her by last week and her
> flight deck was chock-a-block with all sorts of naval and Marine aircraft.
> There is a submarine, a destroyer, and other sundry types of warships there.
> Because of the traffic, and I was driving, I couldn't pick them all out. The
> drive to save the Intrepid and form a naval/military museum on or rather at a
> Hudson River dock was a mighty endeavor which has proved successful. Then there
> is the carrier at Charleston, sadly I have forgotten her name, and other major
> naval combatants preserved elsewhere in the States. Perhaps this posting could
> begin a thread with all the experts chiming in re/location of preserved naval
> craft. Ben Frank
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 21:23:33 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <jimadams@UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Re: USS SARATOGA

Some recent discussion about the Saratoga and wishes that she had been
preserved.  Although she was sunk in the Bikini a-bomb test, she has in a
sense been preserved and is a museum, accessible by divers.  There is a
proposal to make her into an underwater history park.  The National Park
Service conducted surveys of her (and other ships in Bikini) in 1989.  I
have copied part of the site description from the report here.
        In 1989 and 1990 dive surveys found that the virtually intact USS
Saratoga still lies upright on the bottom of Bikini Lagoon in approx. 180
feet of water.  Thje vessel rises to within 40 feet of the surface, with
the island and mast visible from the surface.  Numerous hatches and the
elevator bay stand open.  The vessel strongly retains its integrity as a
ship and is easily identifiable as Saratoga.  Althogh the carrier's
entire exterior was surveyed, emphasis was upon the starboard side (which
faced the blast) and the flight deck. ...
        Saratoga readily evidences the effects of the Baker test bomb's
detonation.  More precisely, the ship shows the aftermath of a nearby
nuclear detonation's pressure wave, the effects of being lifted 29 to 43
feet, being hit by enormous waves, and the results of tons of water
thrown up by the blast fallin on the decks....
        This is from "The Archeology of the Atomic Bomb:  A Submerged
Cultural Resources Assessment of the Sunken Fleet of Operation Crossroads
at Bikini and Kwajalein Atoll Lagoons."  By J. Delgado, D. Lenihan, & L.
Murphy.  Submerged Cultural Resources Unit, National Park Service.
Southwest Cultural Resources Center Professional Papers, #37, Santa Fe,
New Mexicao 1991.  An outstanding publication that describes the a bomb
testing and the archeological surveys done on many of the sunken
vessels.  Provides good examples of another form of museum and preserved
historical ships.
        sorry for the length, but it is easy to get carried away on this
stuff.

****************************************************************************
Jim Adams                       jimadams@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.edu
USS Arizona Memorial, NPS        (808) 423-7300
1 Arizona Memorial Place
Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 08:47:40 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <smb@NETMGRS.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Preserving Ships

>
>Steve
>
>Well, sorry, but the Belfast is a Light Cruiser, she's a beauty though
>I got to visit her a couple of years ago.  I'm not sure, but was the
>Victory saved by accident, ie didn't it sit forgotten, except for
>its job as a barracks ship, for 50+ years, wait, I'll look it up
>over the weekend and report on Monday.  The second thing is that
>naval power is:  US, France, Russia(if the ships had fuel, crews, and
>weapons), then probably Britain, although britain would be hard pressed
>to mount an offensive operation against several navies, Japan, India,
>etc.  If China does buy the old Soviet carrier, look for them overtaking
>the UK too,  sorry.
>
>
>John E. Kollar

John! it  sounds like you're nearly in tears at having to give me this
data :-)

Don't apologise ["it's a sign of weakness" (c) John Wayne (questionable
statement too...) ].
I'm always very pleased to be corrected and to learn...

Steve B
smb@netmgrs.co.uk

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 04:08:38 -0700
From:    John Davis <jbd@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 10-SEP-1944

On 10-SEP-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The operation to liberate Antwerp is postponed by Eisenhower.
On the suggestion of Montgomery, he decides instead on Operation Market
Garden, a landing by airborne troops at Arnhem, Grave and Eindhoven to secure
a bridgehead over the Rhine. The operation will begin on September 17th. The
British I Corps (Canadian 1st Army) launches a general offensive against Le
Havre. The Canadian II Corps occupy Ostend. The US 4th Armoured Division (V
Corps, 1st Army) reaches Luxembourg. The French II Corps enters Dijon. At
Sombernon, the 1st Division makes contact with the French 2nd Armoured
Division.

Italian Front - The Allied offensive against the Gothic line continues. The US
5th Army crosses the river Serchio at Vecchiano, captures Villa Basilica and
crosses the Sieve. In the east, the German 10th Army keeps up their strong
resistance in the Gemmano and Coriano hills.

Palau Islands - Aircraft from a fast carrier task force under RADM Davison
carry out a heavy raid against the Japanese defences on the islands of Peleliu
and Angaur, in preparation for the invasion.

Naval Dispatches
----------------
Minesweeper SEER (AM-112) damaged by mine, Southern France area.

The Homefront
-------------
Byron Nelson Wins Again - Byron Nelson has won the Texas Victory Open golf
tournament in Dallas, with a score of 276.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  jbd@netcom.com
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 04:20:10 -0700
From:    John Davis <jbd@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: PRESERVING SHIPS

> Hudson River dock was a mighty endeavor which has proved successful. Then
> there is the carrier at Charleston, sadly I have forgotten her name, and

The carrier in Charleston at Patriot's Point is the Yorktown. They also
have about three or four other ships there including a sub (don't
remember the name), a cargo ship and I believe a destroyer.

If we're creating a list of ships, add the battleship North Carolina in
Wilmington, N.C. I grew up in Wilmington and have visited the Showboat
about 25 times. I went twice last year, for some reason I just can get
enough of her.

------------
John Davis    jbd@netcom.com
Cary, N.C.
------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 05:11:55 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 09-09-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
09/09 Sat. Aircraft from fast carrier task force (Vice Adm. M.
           A. Mitscher) commence 2-day strike against Japanese
           shipping, facilities, and aircraft at Mindanao, P. I.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 07:49:11 -0500
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <TWATTS@EXODUS.VALPO.EDU>
Subject: Re: USS Saratoga

Jim Adams:
Do you know if the Sara still had any aircraft on board when they used
her in the a-bomb test?  If there were any left in the hangar deck, would
they still be in condition to interest WWII buffs who dove down there?
Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 09:11:16 EDT
From:    Richard Kaplan <kaplanr@CLP2.CLPGH.ORG>
Subject: Preserved Naval Vessels

Here in Pittsburgh we have the USS Requin moored at the confluence of the Ohio,
Allegheny, and Monongahela Rivers at the Carnegie Science Center.  The Requin
is a late WWII sub, maybe Gato class?

It was towed up the Mississippi and Ohio rivers suspended between two barges.
Once moored the sub was refurbished by volunteers, and tours are provided by
volunteers, at least one of whom is a Pearl Harbor vet.

I've been to Battleship Cove (Fall River, MA) and the PT Boat Museum twice, the
Intrepid once, the Belfast, Constitution and Cassion Young.  The North
Carolina, Texas, and Olympia are still on my to do list.


                                Richard Kaplan
                                Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 09:46:00 EDT
From:    KAREN OYE 433-5774 <OYE#m#_KAREN@LIMS-A1.LERC.NASA.GOV>
Subject: HELP ON AIR FORCE WINGS?

          I'm a librarian at NASA Lewis Research Center in Cleveland, Ohio
          with a desperate need of a color photograph of a specific Air
          Force wing. We need the Master Navigator, Air Force....have tried
          lots of libraries, local AF office, and several NASA and AF
          bases....only have a black and white line drawing, so far.

          I've been referred to this list by a colleague on an Interlibrary
          Loan Internet list....anyone have such a photo? Anyone in the
          Cleveland area who has the item? Our photographic division could
          make its own photo, if we cannot get a paper copy. We need super
          high quality on the photo, for scanning and reproduction.

          Many thanks, for any help!
          I'm not a listmember--replies or calls to Karen Oye 216 433-5774
          koye@lerc.nasa.gov

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 10:16:10 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <sep@TVSS2.COMMNET.EDU>
Subject: Re: Preserved Naval Vessels

I've seen the CAisson Young and the Constitution. Channel 2 Boston, the
local public TV channel, which runs "Victory at Sea" had a fundraiser
during a VAS marathon a coupla weeks ago from the decks of the CY.

My tour of the CY, whilest many years ago, was too short. I fully intend
to return there as soon as I can.

Note, during my last tour of the Constitution, just before the last refit,
I was dismayed at the tour guide's lack of any real knowledge of sailing
ships outside his programmed speil. At least the CY's guide knew something.

As far as I'm concerned, the Const. should be staffed by naval personnel
with extensive training and experience in sailing ships, rather than the
plastic nice-looking very young types.

I could go on, but this is getting off topic, Steve P.'s getting on it again.

                                                                Steve
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - sep@trctc.commnet.edu |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 10:33:59 -0400
From:    Peter Smith <psmith@WELLSPRING.US.DG.COM>
Subject: Re: Preserved Naval Vessels

Steven Pudlo <sep@TVSS2.COMMNET.EDU> said:
...
> Note, during my last tour of the Constitution, just before the last refit,
> I was dismayed at the tour guide's lack of any real knowledge of sailing
> ships outside his programmed speil. At least the CY's guide knew something.
>
> As far as I'm concerned, the Const. should be staffed by naval personnel
> with extensive training and experience in sailing ships, rather than the
> plastic nice-looking very young types.

But other than a cruise on the USCGC EAGLE (perish the thought!), where would
US naval officers and seamen get such experience?  Since the X-USSR navy is
selling off submarines and such, do you suppose the USN might be able to buy
a tall ship?
--
Peter Smith -- Data General Corp., Westboro MA, USA
psmith@wellspring.us.dg.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 10:11:18 -0400
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: PRESERVING SHIPS

At Battleship Cove in Fall River, Massachusetts is the USS Massachusetts
(naturally!), a destroyer, a sub, a landing craft, two PT boats, a Huey,
and a T-26 (I think -- trainers don't excite me.)  I believe the
Massachusetts is an Iowa class ship (my knowledge in naval matters
is rudimentary at best!) because the an engine or two had been removed
for spare parts for the Iowa.  It's been a while since I was there and
the names of the other ships escape me.  As I recall, the tour is really
nice since there are vets who love to regale visitors with various stories
about the ships and themselves.  The Massachusetts can be seen from I-195
as one travels east crossing the Braga Bridge over the Taunton River.  It's
truly a majesty sight!
--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
When we go into battle, we like to play music.
Loud music.  We find that it calms us...

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 09:49:43 -0500
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: HUMOR: Visiting France

> As for the ungracious attitude of Parisians towards Americans nowadays.
> Who expects gratitude ?

Civility would be nice....

> PS: I notice that Parisian waiters are every bit as nasty to *French*
> tourists, too!

My point exactly.  A Parisian accent is essential for good service
otherwise they think you are a French bumpkin from the vineyards and
nearly as worthless as Americans.

My wife was president of her French Club in High-school and went to
France with the club on summer break.  After two weeks of seeing the
sights of France on their way home they got caught in a strike
by the Paris Airport because of US objections to the SST landing in
the US.  The French refused to let any of the US flights leave.
So picture a bunch of "rude American" high-school kids stuck in the
Paris Airport with no way of getting home.  They decided that since
they were stuck there they would treat the French to a free concert
featuring "America the Beautiful", "The Star Spangled Banner" and
similar French favorites sung in a variety of keys.  It was described
as --- undescribable.  The good hearted French airport administrators
devised a resolution to this unfortunate situation and flights
departing Paris resumed.....  I think the trashcan and kazoo corps
may have tipped the balance.

I love a happy ending.

Cheers, Bill Huber

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 09:55:57 CDT
From:    Robert Hohlt <rhohlt@MGMSERV1.MGM.SAIC.COM>
Subject: Re: Preserving Ships

Yesterday Steve Baldwin asked:

>...How close did the enthusiasts come to preserving the Enterprise, and how
>much did they anticipate it costing to maintain it? (obviously not in working
>order, but "presentable"). ...


I had to go home and get my other Enterprise book to answer that one.

In 1949 an effort was made by the San Francisco Museum of Science and Industry
to have the Enterprise assigned and berthed at the U.S. Naval Station, Treasure
Island, San Francisco, CA.  But that failed because the Navy didn't want to
pay the cost of moving Enterprise to San Francisco and maintaining her there.

Then as Lou said yesterday, President Eisenhower signed S.J. Resolution 96 on
28-Aug-57 which would have given Enterprise to the Enterprise Association
if certain conditions had been met.

The Association had to raise enough money to move, repair, renovate, berth,
prepare for display, maintain and administer the ship. This cost was
estimated at approximately 2 Million (1957) dollars.

Additionally, a site for berthing the ship had to be found.

Section 3. of S.J. Resolution 96 was the death sentence for the Enterprise.
It said:

If the conditions described in Sec 2 are not met within 6 months of the date
of enactment of this act, the Secretary of the Navy may dispose of the U.S.S.
Enterprise in accordance with law.
..


So with only 6 months to raise the necessary funds and total financial
responsibility upon the Enterprise Association (Mostly made up of ex-crew
just starting their post Navy careers),  Enterprise's last battle was over
almost before it started.

Enterprise was the first major WWII warship to be offered to the American
public as a national memorial museum. (USS Texas was saved in 1948 by the
people of Texas as a state museum).

In 1957, WWII was only 12 years in the past, the public (at the time) did
not realize the significance of or treasure our veteran ships (or WWII-L
personalities) as we do today.

So on 01-Jul-1958 U.S.S. Enterprise, the greatest ship in United States
history was sold to Lipsett, Incorporated for the sum of $561,333.00.
A sum that would not even buy one F-14 Tomcat today..
(sorry to you fans of the USS Constitution who might not agree with my
OPINION)

For what its worth the loss of the Enterprise spurred several states into
rescuing WWII ships as state museums.  Alabama, North Carolina,
Massachusetts, CVs Yorktown, and Intrepid.

There is a WWII destroyer named U.S.S. Kidd in Baton Rouge, Louisiana at
some sort of museum.  Perhaps Mr. Terrance Lewis in New Orleans can give
more info on this ship and the museum?  The Corpus Cristi CV is the
Lexington (CV-16).

Lipsett/River Terminal Development Company also dismantled other noteworthy
ships which we discuss on this list:

BB New Mexico
BB Idaho
BB Wyoming

CA Augusta (Atlantic Charter fame)

CV Essex
CV Wasp
CV Boxer
CV Antietam
CV Franklin D. Roosevelt

Above list is undoubtedly incomplete.


Question: Were some parts of the South
Dakota saved?  Whole ship?  Hou much, Where??

The information I have spewed forth came from:

USS Enterprise (CV-6)
The most decorated ship of WWII
A Pictoral History
by Steve Ewing

Regards, and try to visit a ship this weekend.
Robert Hohlt, Jr.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 10:44:25 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <sep@TVSS2.COMMNET.EDU>
Subject: Re: Preserved Naval Vessels

Peter Smith ponders;

>But other than a cruise on the USCGC EAGLE (perish the thought!), where would
>US naval officers and seamen get such experience?  Since the X-USSR navy is
>selling off submarines and such, do you suppose the USN might be able to buy
>a tall ship?

Perhaps SOME sailing experience should be required. When a person of
authority tells the general public, including foreign guests, that nobody
in this country can sail a tall ship, then I have a problem.

There are people in Hollywood who can. There is an entire maritime museum
complete with tall ships right here in Mystic where one can learn much about
sailing tall ships., and elsewhere around the globe.

If my memory serves correctly, there are sailing replicas of the HMS Bounty
used in the movies in existance. There are also tall ships from around the
world, presumably with crews that know how they work.

When the guide doesn't even know the expected life expency of a wooden warship
of that era (12 years, I beleive, from my uneducated readings), how can he
expect to impress visitors with the longevity of the Const.?

Before I seem too hard on the crew, I'd hardly expect a youngster barely out
of his teens to posess such knowledge. He was posted there (active USN duty)
for his apearance and demeanor, and not for any apparent apptitude.

Neither do I wonder why young seamen seek such a post: Shorter hours, and a
license to talk to the girls;-). Get to wear funny uniforms too.

My complaint is that someone with more lore, and less polish, sort of a studied
grizzled vet would have a more authorative presentation. One that goes beyond
the programmed speil.

There, now you've done it. You've gotten me off on a tangent. I'll be on this
for days now.

Sorry Joe for this post.
                                                                Steve


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - sep@trctc.commnet.edu |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 10:59:36 -0400
From:    Ron Babuka <wrb1@CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: Re: Preserved Naval Vessels

>Steven Pudlo <sep@TVSS2.COMMNET.EDU> said:
>...
>> Note, during my last tour of the Constitution, just before the last refit,
>> I was dismayed at the tour guide's lack of any real knowledge of sailing
>> ships outside his programmed speil. At least the CY's guide knew something.
>>
>> As far as I'm concerned, the Const. should be staffed by naval personnel
>> with extensive training and experience in sailing ships, rather than the
>> plastic nice-looking very young types.
>


When I visited the U.S.S. Constitution several years ago, the guides seemed
quite knowledgeable  (at least to me) but I did not speak to any of the
other sailors on deck.  Perhaps you could expand on the experience you had
Steve.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka                                         National Warplane Museum
Cornell University                                 Geneseo, New York
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 10:40:56 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Saratoga

     >Jim Adams:
     >Do you know if the Sara still had any aircraft on board when they
     >used her in the a-bomb test?  If there were any left in the hangar
     >deck, would they still be in condition to interest WWII buffs who
     >dove down there? Tim J. Watts
     >Valparaiso University


     I vaguely remember a television special covering dives on these ships
     (National Geographic perhaps).  If memory serves, there was a small
     number of airframes aboard, but they didn't survive the concussion
     etc. very well.


        Steve L. New                     .............................
        Weapon System Manager            .............................
        Battalion Countermine Set        ............ /\ .............
        U.S. Army TACOM AMSTA-FR1D       ............/  \.............
        DSN: 786-5403  FAX: 786-7788     ............    .............
        EMAIL  NEWST@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL   ............    .............

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 11:36:06 -0400
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: HUMOR: Visiting France

This is starting to drift far afield.  Not to mention that the French
members of the list may not appreciate the humor!  Thanks.
--
Joe Barone, WWII-L listowner
m1b@ssd.ray.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 11:48:55 -0400
From:    Peter Smith <psmith@WELLSPRING.US.DG.COM>
Subject: Re: PRESERVING SHIPS

Joe said:
> At Battleship Cove in Fall River, Massachusetts is the USS Massachusetts
> (naturally!), a destroyer, a sub, a landing craft, two PT boats, a Huey,
> and a T-26 (I think -- trainers don't excite me.)  I believe the
> Massachusetts is an Iowa class ship (my knowledge in naval matters
> is rudimentary at best!) because the an engine or two had been removed
> for spare parts for the Iowa.

USS MASSACHUSETTS (BB-59) was a South Dakota class, (35,000 tons, 681 feet,
27 knots, 9x16"/45).  I guess the two classes must have a lot in common
under the skin, though.  Interesting.
--
Peter Smith -- Data General Corp., Westboro MA, USA
psmith@wellspring.us.dg.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 12:49:50 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <sep@TVSS2.COMMNET.EDU>
Subject: Re: PRESERVING SHIPS

Beggin' pardon Joe...

Do you have directions (I-95 Northbound) for battleship cove?

I've allways wanted to go there, but never had the chance. Might be
able to go this year.

Admission and other data would be most helpful.

Thanx                                                   Steve

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - sep@trctc.commnet.edu |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 13:03:09 EDT
From:    Richard Kaplan <kaplanr@CLP2.CLPGH.ORG>
Subject: PT Boats

Jack, maybe I embellished a little; the PT boats are housed next to the
Battleship Cove fleet in a Quonset type structure.  There is just enough room
to wa around the boats on an elevated walkway.  There are also dioramas ans
related models.  Museum might be a strong term.

I don't know the name of the sub at Battleship Cove, but the DD is the USS
Joseph P. Kennedy; a later model can with the twin 5" mounts instead of
singles.  What I really remember is that there seemed to be more headroom (I'm
6'4") in the sub than in the

The Massachusetts isn't anclass (New Jersey, Wisconsin, Missouri, Iowa), but
the preceding one that included Washington and North Carolina.

                                        Richard Kaplan
                                        Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 12:24:00 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: "Point of order":  USCG cutter actually at Honolulu

INTERNET can be *awesome*, can't it?!  :-)

Incredible:  the wealth of expertise on here.

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 13:36:44 EDT
From:    SKIP WILDER <PHSP11A@PRODIGY.COM>
Subject: Preserving Ships

For Robert Hohlt:
        A quad 40mm mount from the USS South Dakota is on display at the
Navy Historical Museum, Washington Navy Yard, Washington, DC.  I'm sure Ben
Frank has seen it.

 -----------------------------------------------------------
 |    Skip Wilder              |                           |
 |    phsp11a@prodigy.com      |"The road to hell is paved |
 |    FAX (703)528-2103        | with good intentions."    |
 |    McLean, Virginia, U.S.A. |                           |
 -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 13:20:32 EDT
From:    SKIP WILDER <PHSP11A@PRODIGY.COM>
Subject: Preserved Naval Vessels

For Richard Kaplan:
        Can you tell us where the PT Boat Museum is located?  Thanks in advance.

 -----------------------------------------------------------
 |    Skip Wilder              |                           |
 |    phsp11a@prodigy.com      |"The road to hell is paved |
 |    FAX (703)528-2103        | with good intentions."    |
 |    McLean, Virginia, U.S.A. |                           |
 -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 14:24:37 EDT
From:    Patrick D Marsden <marsden@TEXAS.CPI.COM>
Subject: Re: Preserving Ships

One of the distinct pleasures of visiting the U.S.S. North Carolina
was the "operational" quad 40mm mounts all over the ship.  I'm sure
there were few things more humorous on that ship that the sight
of grown men merrily cranking on the handbars as they elevated and
rotated the guns.  I count myself among those who tried to track
and "shoot down" the airliners heading into Wilmington airport.

patrick


>
> For Robert Hohlt:
>         A quad 40mm mount from the USS South Dakota is on display at the
> Navy Historical Museum, Washington Navy Yard, Washington, DC.  I'm sure Ben
> Frank has seen it.
>
>  -----------------------------------------------------------
>  |    Skip Wilder              |                           |
>  |    phsp11a@prodigy.com      |"The road to hell is paved |
>  |    FAX (703)528-2103        | with good intentions."    |
>  |    McLean, Virginia, U.S.A. |                           |
>  -----------------------------------------------------------
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 14:43:33 -0400
From:    Ron Babuka <wrb1@CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: Re: PT Boats

>I don't know the name of the sub at Battleship Cove, but the DD is the USS
>Joseph P. Kennedy; a later model can with the twin 5" mounts instead of
>singles.  What I really remember is that there seemed to be more headroom (I'm

The twin 5" 38 mounts were of the Sumner class (3 mounts per DD) and the
single 5" 38 mounts were of the Fletcher class (5 mounts per DD).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka                                         National Warplane Museum
Cornell University                                 Geneseo, New York
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 13:44:09 EST
From:    coon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU
Subject: Preserved World War II ships book

        I haven't seen it mentioned so I will.  There is a Government
publication entitled _Warships associated with World War II in the
Pacific: National Historic Landmark Theme Study_ by Dr. Harry A.
Butowsky (Sudoc # I29.2:W26).  This book is not paginated but is about
1 1/2"-2" thick, profusely illustrated and covers 26 vessels.  It includes
what appear to be reprints of the brochures handed out over the years at
the sites.
Ships include the following;
CV
Intrepid
Yorktown
BB
North Carolina
Alabama
Massachusetts
Missouri
CG
Des Moines
DD
Kidd
Cassin Young
The Sullivans
Laffey
Joseph P. Kennedy Jr.
SS
Siversides
Drum
Cobia
Cod
Bowfin
Pampanito
Lionfish
Becuna
Torsk

Minesweeper (what the hell was the abrev. for minesweeper??)
Hazard
Inaugral

PTB
PT796

Liberty Ship
Jeremiah O'Brien

Foreign Warships
U-505

This book was published in 1985 and should be available in any decent
sized Gov Docs collection in Public and University Libraries.
*****************************************************
(Roger) Brad Coon             The right to defend
COON@IPFWCVAX.BITNET          one's self and one's
COON@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU    family against harm and
                              injustice is the most
                              basic civil right.

Proud to be a member of America's largest civil rights
group, the National Rifle Association.
******************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 13:51:48 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: USS Enterprise (CV-6) (Was: 16 carriers....)

Hello, Jorge, John and Robert!

I agree that the Enterprise should have been saved from scrapping,
but, if you think about it, the reasons are understandable, if you
consider the time the decision was made.

It was very easy to consign a ship to the scrap heap after the end of
WWII and many were, as you know. The Enterprise was just one of many
ships which had a most distinguished battle record, and to save one
ship from the scrap heap, for whatever reason, would suggest that
others should have been as well. Given the climate, at the time, of a
congress wanting to and being called on to cut back drastically from
a wartime expansion that had known no limits, the desire of the
public to forget the war and all that had happened, the call for the
preservation of a ship as distinguished as the Enterprise would have
fallen on deaf ears. And this attitude prevailed for many years after
the end of the War, even with the advent of the Korean Conflict.
As you must be aware, a change in attitude wasn't even contemplated
until much later, the 60's, 70's and 80's. It is much easier to say
that this or that ship should have been spared from the scrap heap or
destruction through atomic tests in the 1990's or earlier, but given
the public and congressional attitudes at the time, it is
understandable that there was no drive to spare this or any other
very distinguished ship from the scrapheap.

> >> Lord knows I am rarely humble about an opinion, but everytime I read
> >> something like Robert Hohlts, Jr.'s posting I start foaming at the mouth.
> >> That the US did not preserve the Enterprise remains one of the great
> >> outrages of the post-war era.  No excuse could possibly be adequate.
> >
> >Surely, I don't understand why the Navy didn't preserve her, and prefered
> >to kill her in an atomic test. She could be now a museum, if they only
> >could think twice by that time.... now, she's gone.

    Agreed, but times then were different than they are now. The
world was a different place then than now, and the idea of floating
museums was not that widespread.

    Just thought I would offer a perspective on this issue, and I
thank you for your time to read it.

    Your or anyone else's thoughts?

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 13:52:37 CDT
From:    Robert Hohlt <rhohlt@MGMSERV1.MGM.SAIC.COM>
Subject: Re: USS SARATOGA

Jim Adams wrote:

>Some recent discussion about the Saratoga and wishes that she had been
>preserved.  Although she was sunk in the Bikini a-bomb test, she has in a
>sense been preserved and is a museum, accessible by divers.  There is a
>proposal to make her into an underwater history park.  The National Park
>Service conducted surveys of her (and other ships in Bikini) in 1989.  I
>have copied part of the site description from the report here.

I have a few questions about this underwater history park Jim.

1. Isn't the Saratoga still "HOT"?

2. Who will be responsible for this underwater park? USA? Kwajalein?

It seems a shame that the only way the ex-crew of the Saratoga can
visit their ship is to travel that long distance then have to don
Scuba gear to touch their ship.

Maybe they could have one of those Altantis type submarines with
all the windows so non Scuba types and Saratoga vets could
be with their ship.  Just a thought.

BTW Jim, you guys at the Arizona Memorial are one CLASS ACT!
I am looking forward to many more visits.  Is Dick Fisk
(USS West Virginia) still acting as a tour guide there?
I am a fan of his from the National Geographic story, and
his appearances during the 50th anniversary of PH on TV.

Regards,


Robert Hohlt, Jr.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 13:57:31 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fate of USS ENTERPRISE, CV-6

Hello, Lou!

Enjoyed your post, but I would like to respond to this part of your
message.

 > Eisenhower's other moment of inglory was when he went along
>   with the forced return of Eastern Europeans and Germans
>   to the Soviets.

    General Eisenhower had no choice but to go along with the
forcible repatriation of the former Soviets serving in the German
Army or any other Eastern European emigre found living in Western
Europe whose presence was desired by Stalin in the Soviet Union. The
details for this forcible repatriation were worked out by diplomats
in Moscow in 1944, according to Averill Harriman. This was a
political decision that left Eisenhower's hands tied.

 Thank you for allowing my comment on this.

 Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 14:19:55 -0700
From:    John Holtz <holtz@EAGLE.SANGAMON.EDU>
Subject: Post Washington Treaty U.S. BBs

Hi all:

I believe there were 3 classes of "fast" battleships:

North Carolina (w/South Dakota and Washington)
Indiana (w/Massachusetts and Alabama)
Iowa (w/Missouri and Wisconsin)

No Jane's at hand so this is from suspect, little accessed "grey cells."

Out.

jwh

--
John W. Holtz, Asst. Professor       INTERNET: holtz@eagle.sangamon.edu
Sangamon State University Library       PHONE: (217) 786-6633
Springfield, IL  62794-9243               FAX: (217) 786-6208

 < I am not responsible for words spoken or actions taken before 11 am >

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 15:30:13 CCS
From:    Jorge Merino <jem@VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject: WEAP: Essex-class carriers

>From previous postings, I understand that the following Essex-class carriers
have been preserved as floating museums:

      CV-10 Yorktown
      CV-11 Intrepid
      CV-16 Lexington

Due to the large quantity of Essex-class carriers built during WW2 and
after, I think there could be more survivors, maybe not as floating museums,
but waiting for restoration, etc. Is there any more carrier of this class
still floating around? Is there any Essex-class survivor with the original
aspect/configuration as in WW2?

Jorge Merino

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 15:39:05 EDT
From:    cassady craft <CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Preserved Naval Vessels

Don't forget the ALABAMA (South Dakota class BB) and DRUM (sub) in Mobile
bay.  There is also a sub in, believe it or not, Muskogee, Oklahoma--the
BATFISH.  BAttleship park in Mobile is definitely worth the visit, with
aircraft, artillery, tanks, etc.  Another one of those SR 71's with card-
board leading edges is there too.  And if you are in Muskogee---well, you
get the idea.

Cassady Craft
Department of Political Science
University of Georgia
e-mail CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
or
CCRAFT@LANL.GOV

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 15:43:35 -0400
From:    Peter Smith <psmith@WELLSPRING.US.DG.COM>
Subject: Re: Post Washington Treaty U.S. BBs

John Holtz <holtz@EAGLE.SANGAMON.EDU> said:
>
> I believe there were 3 classes of "fast" battleships:
>
> North Carolina (w/South Dakota and Washington)
> Indiana (w/Massachusetts and Alabama)
> Iowa (w/Missouri and Wisconsin)
>
> No Jane's at hand so this is from suspect, little accessed "grey cells."
>

I don't have Jane's at hand, but I do have a few notes.  There were three
classes of post-Washington Treaty BB's:

    BB-55 North Carolina & BB-56 Washington
        35,000 tons dry, 729 feet long, 27 knots, 9x16"/45

    BB57 South Dakota, BB58 Indiana, BB59 Massachusetts, & BB60 Alabama
        35,000 tons dry, 680 feet long, 27 knots, 9x16"/45

    BB61 Iowa, BB62 New Jersey, BB63 Missouri, BB64 Wisconsin
        45,000 tons dry, 887 feet long, 33 knots, 9x16"/50

All had similar silhouetts, except the NoCal's, which had a single funnel.
--
Peter Smith -- Data General Corp., Westboro MA, USA
psmith@wellspring.us.dg.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 14:58:29 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: USS Hornet (and other Essex-class carriers)

Hello, Josh!

This was the carrier Lexington which had been used for carrier
qualifications for pilot trainees at Pensacola, Florida.

Terry

> I know of a WWII-era carrier which was recently turned into a floating museum in
> Corpus Cristi, TX.  It opened as a museum in 1992.  I remember reading about it
> in the local papers when it opened, but I don't remember the name or class :(.
> This particular carrier was commissioned in either the spring or summer of 1945.
> Hope this helps some, as vague as it is.
>
> Josh Talbert
> Samuel_Talbert@baylor.edu
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 16:00:36 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: Re: Preserved World War II ships book

In reply to the mail from <coon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>        I haven't seen it mentioned so I will.  There is a Government
>publication entitled _Warships associated with World War II in the
>Pacific: National Historic Landmark Theme Study_ by Dr. Harry A.
>Butowsky (Sudoc # I29.2:W26).  This book is not paginated but is about
>1 1/2"-2" thick, profusely illustrated and covers 26 vessels.  It includes
>what appear to be reprints of the brochures handed out over the years at
>the sites.
>Ships include the following;
>CV
>Intrepid
>Yorktown
>BB
>North Carolina
>Alabama
>Massachusetts
>Missouri
>CG
>Des Moines
>DD
>Kidd
>Cassin Young
>The Sullivans
>Laffey
>Joseph P. Kennedy Jr.
>SS
>Siversides
>Drum
>Cobia
>Cod
>Bowfin
>Pampanito
>Lionfish
>Becuna
>Torsk
>
>Minesweeper (what the hell was the abrev. for minesweeper??)
>Hazard
>Inaugral
>
>PTB
>PT796
>
>Liberty Ship
>Jeremiah O'Brien
>
>Foreign Warships
>U-505
>
The BECUNA is tied up alongside Adm. Dewey's flagship OLYMPIA at
Penn's Landing on the Delware River in Philadelphia.

Jim


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 16:15:23 -0400
From:    David Rising <drising@ACS.BU.EDU>
Subject: General Belgrano: Ship

Reading all of this info on the retirement of U.S. ships got me to
thinking. Wasn't the main Argentine ship of the Falklands war, the _General
Belgrano_ (I may have this wrong, I'm relying on memory) one of the ships
which survived the attack on Pearl Harbour? I seem to remember thinking
that it was a shame for us to have sold it. Just wondering,
David Rising

P.S. I posted this before, but given the new thread on French gratitude,
I'll say it again: When de Gaulle requested that the U.S. remove all
troops from French soil, Sec of State Dean Rusk (I think) replied,
"would you like us to exhume all of the bodies from your cemetaries as
well?" I have yet to find a statement which sums it up better than this.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 15:23:33 CDT
From:    Henry Sirotin <hhs@EVEREST.HUNTER.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Preserving Ships

Dear Steve Baldwin,


Isn't HMS Warrior of 1860 preserved somewhere?

Actually, the American ship preservation movement is a nefarious
attempt to avoid disarmament programs. I understand they are now
going to try and save one of the Forrestal class carriers that are
about to come up for disposition. That would make our preservation
navy nearly as strong as our 1941 fleet. I think that would give
us two carriers, at least two post-1935 battleships, and who knows
what else. But what else can you expect from a country where a
state Governor wanted to equip his militia with nuclear weapons
because they had a territorial dispute with an adjacent state?

Henry Sirotin


Ps- The carrier that has been saved is the Essex class "Intrepid",
in New York City. There is also an SR-71 Blackbird "preserved"
on her. Need I say more?

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 16:43:13 EDT
From:    Richard Kaplan <kaplanr@CLP2.CLPGH.ORG>
Subject: PT Boat "Museum"

Skip, and the rest of the list, I've already admitted to Jack McKillop that my
description of the PT Boat exhibit at Battleship Cove as a museum may have been
a stretch.  It has as much information as a walk through a sub, but certainly
less than the Intrepid.  Mea Culpa.

I'm surprised that up to now, all of us have missed citing the U-505 in the
Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago.

                                        Richard Kaplan
                                        Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 16:49:46 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA: Monty's PJs

>From the DoD Newswire 9 September 1994

Bids, anyone?


:FIELD MARSHAL MONTGOMERY'S PYJAMAS FOR SALE

    LONDON, Sept 8  - A pair of pyjamas belonging to Britain's
World War Two hero, Field Marshal Bernard Montgomery, are to be sold
at auction on September 27.
     The lilac flannel pyjamas, which still have the famous general's
nametag on the collar, are expected to fetch up to 500 pounds ($750),
Sotheby's auctioneers said on Thursday.
     May Campbell, 60, won the pyjamas in a raffle when she was 10.
She recently found them again in her loft, Sotheby's said in a
statement.

=====


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 17:00:33 EDT
From:    Richard Kaplan <kaplanr@CLP2.CLPGH.ORG>
Subject: General Belgrano

Yes, the ill fated Belgrano was the Brooklyn class light cruiser USS Phoenix.
She was built in the mid 30s, and did indeed survive Pearl Harbor.  Her
armament at the time of her sinking (5/2/82) was 15 6" guns and 8 5" guns.
Phoenix served as Admiral Kinkaid's flagship in the Seventh Fleet.  USS Phoenix
was sold to Argentina in 1951, and re-named General Belgrano after Peron was
deposed (the first time).

        Source: Woodward, Admiral Sandy
                One Hundred Days: The Memoirs of the
                Falklands Battle Group Commander

                Naval Institute Press: 1992

                p. 148


                                        Richard Kaplan
                                        Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 17:10:33 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: POW/MIA Ceremony at Travis AFB.

**NEWS RELEASES**NEWS RELEASES**NEWS RELEASES**

                                                            9 Sept 1994

NATIONAL POW/MIA DAY CEREMONY AT TRAVIS AFB, CALIF., SEPT. 16

PUBLIC AND MEDIA INVITED TO ATTEND

        TRAVIS AIR FORCE BASE, Calif -- Retired CMSgt. Spencer Dukes, a
former World War II prisoner of war and survivor of the Bataan Death
March, will speak at a Prisoners of War/Missing In Action Ceremony here
Sept. 16 at 4 p.m. The public is invited to attend.
        The 60th Airlift Wing will commemorate the day with a formal
retreat ceremony, and will present a POW Medal to Mrs. Felisa Beltran of
Fairfield, the widow of retired Army Lt. Ludovico Beltran, another death
march survivor. The reviewing officer will be Brig. Gen. Howard "Foot"
Ingersoll, 60th AW commander.
        In attendance will be veterans and former POWs from three
American wars (World War II, Korean War and Vietnam War) and families of
servicemembers still listed as missing in action in Southeast Asia.
        The ceremony pays tribute to all former POWS and those missing in
action from all American conflicts, and is a message to the American
people that those who make the ultimate sacrifice for their country are
not forgotten.

                                -30-

MEDIA ADVISORY:  Media interested in attending the ceremony or those
media with queries should call TSgt. Patrick McKenna at (707) 424-2011.


--
______________________________________________________________________________
Patrick M. McKenna     Air Force Technical Sergeant       Travis AFB, Calif.
              Noncommissioned Officer in Charge of Media Relations
Work Phone: (707) 424-0135/2011             E-Mail: paddy@solano.community.net

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 17:43:50 -0500
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Monty's PJs

> >From the DoD Newswire 9 September 1994
>
> Bids, anyone?
>
>
> :FIELD MARSHAL MONTGOMERY'S PYJAMAS FOR SALE

Do they have British Field Marshal's insignias?  If so, then we'll
talk! :-)  Had a chance at Goerings shorts once but decided agianst
it.  Pity, I understand they had an original skid mark too....

Have a good weekend, Bill Huber (in Friday afternoon giddy mode)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 19:33:15 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: HUMOR: Visiting France

Bill says,...
>My wife was president of her French Club in High-school and went to
>France with the club on summer break.  After two weeks of seeing the
>sights of France on their way home they got caught in a strike
>by the Paris Airport because of US objections to the SST landing in
>the US.  The French refused to let any of the US flights leave.
>So picture a bunch of "rude American" high-school kids stuck in the
>Paris Airport with no way of getting home.  They decided that since
>they were stuck there they would treat the French to a free concert
>featuring "America the Beautiful", "The Star Spangled Banner" and
>similar French favorites sung in a variety of keys.  It was described
>as --- undescribable.  The good hearted French airport administrators
>devised a resolution to this unfortunate situation and flights
>departing Paris resumed.....  I think the trashcan and kazoo corps
>may have tipped the balance.

Bill, that's great! My wife who is also a French afficianada says, "Ain't
No business like Show business,... " -Al

Alan G. Wild
Admin. Computing
University of Rhode Island
Kingston, R.I.  02881

I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 19:43:44 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: PRESERVING SHIPS

I'll chime in by reporting that the Barry (DD ) is tied up in the Washington
Navy Yard and is visited by many tourists who also visit the Navy Museum and
the Marine Corps Museum, in different buildings. The Navy has spent a
considerable amount of money making the Navy Yard an historic district. The
Navy Museum is especially great for kids because there are all sorts of
hands-on items they can play with, AA guns, periscopes that work, and so on.
Our Marine Corps Museum displays a great number of historic artifacts, such as
the two flags which were raised over Iwo Jima (ask me about this some time),
Sandino's flag, and the like. Right now we are mounting a World War II exhibit,
adding items as each major operation is commemorated. I am not a museologist
but I feel that both museums are well worth a visit. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 19:58:40 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: Re: PRESERVING SHIPS

Joe, your last quote about playing music when we go into battle reminds me of a
couple of things. Of course, one remembers the moview Desert Victory as I think
it was called, Montgomery's offensive against Rommel, and there in the night
shots of the full artillery barrages being fired, one could see and hear a
piper leading the charge. Also, as the Marines crossed the berms into enemy
territory in Desert Storm, from the loudspeakers of the tanks leading the
attack came the music of "The Marines Hymn." As a sidenote, the night before
the 22d Marine Amphibious Unit landed on Grenada, the phibron commander had
"Sands of Iwo Jima" shown on all ships to all hands. Talk about inspiration....
Second to the Hymn comes "Scotland the Brave." Ben Frank (P.S., we might start
a thread on military music, no?)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 20:17:39 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: PRESERVING SHIPS

Yes, Skip, I have, and it is one of the weapons kids can climb all over or man
the seats on which the gunners controlling the traverse and elevation sat.
Great place. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 20:19:46 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: Re: POST WASHINGTON TR

For anyone interested, the final volume of Morison's history is an index of all
the volumes in the series, and equally or more important, he has a listing of
every ship, vessel, craft which sailed in WWII, with their description, date of
launching and other statistics. Check it out.
ben frank

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 21:05:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 10 SEP 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
SUNDAY, 10 SEPTEMBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 6 B-25s fly shipping sweep off Suribachi,
Kurile Islands.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, troop carrier and cargo hauls
continue on a large scale to numerous points in the CBI; 24 B-24s haul fuel
to Kunming, China.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 45 B-25s bomb the towns of Kutkai,
Ssutang, Samshui, Tunganhsien, Lingling, and Tunghsiangchiao, and hit a fuel
dump near Lingling; about 140 P-40s and P-51s on armed reconnaissance over E
Burma, SW China, and inland SE China attack a huge number of targets of
opportunity including troops, aircraft, river shipping, trucks, runways,
bridges, and supply areas; and a flight of the 21st Photographic
Reconnaissance Squadron, Fourteenth Air Force, based at Kunming, begins
operating from Liuchow with F-5s.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 4 missions are flown.
  Mission 619: 1,144 bombers and 570 fighters are dispatched to targets in
the Stuttgart, Germany area; 7 bombers are lost mostly to flak and 5 fighters
are lost:
  1. 388 B-24s are dispatched and hit secondary targets, the marshalling
yards at Ulm (247) and Heilbronn (100); 2 others bomb targets of opportunity;
1 B-24 is lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 65 damaged; 1 airman is KIA, 2
WIA and 10 MIA. Escort is provided by 153 P-38s and P-51s; 2 P-51s are lost,
3 damaged beyond repair and 1 P-38 and 3 P-51s damaged; 1 pilot is KIA and 2
MIA.
  2. 385 B-17s are dispatched to hit a tank factory at Nurnberg (173),
Giebelstadt Airfield (112) and an aircraft components plant at Furth (60); 8
others hit targets of opportunity; 3 B-17s are lost and 147 damaged; 7 airmen
are WIA and 28 MIA. Escort is provided by 221 P-47s and P-51s; they claim
1-0-0 aircraft in the air and 38-0-44 on the ground; 3 P-51s are lost and 2
damaged; 3 pilots are MIA.
  3. 372 B-17s are dispatched to attack a motor vehicle factory at Gaggenau
(140), a jet-propulsion units plant at Zuffenhausen (116) and an engine
factory at Sindelfingen (73); 19 others hit targets of opportunity; 3 B-17s
are lost, 5 damaged beyond repair and 169 damaged; 9 airmen are WIA and 27
MIA. Escort is provided by 135 of 153 P-51s; they claim 1-1-0 aircraft in the
air and 29-0-1 on the ground without loss.
  Mission 620: 1 B-17 flies a mission to trial the GB-4 radio/visual control
bomb against Duren, Germany
  Mission 621: 3 of 3 B-17s fly a radar and photo reconnaissance mission over
Germany; leaflets are also dropped.
  6 of 7 B-17s drop leaflets on France, the Netherlands and Germany during
the night.
  121 of 135 P-47s strafe airfields and ground and rail traffic in a sweep
over the Cologne, Frankfurt/Main, and Kassel areas; they claim 10-0-21
aircraft on the ground; 8 P-47s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 4
damaged; 8 pilots are MIA.
  35 B-24s and C-47s fly CARPETBAGGER missions during the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Advance HQ, Ninth AF, assigns rail
lines approaching the Rhine River from the W, N of Karlsruhe, to be attacked
by IX and XIX Tactical Air Command fighters in the first of a series of
orders setting up rail interdiction programs to cut lines W and E of the
Rhine River in Sep and early Oct; changes and additions to targets appear on
12 and 14 Sep when a list of all lines to be cut is published.
  In France, about 340 B-26s and A-20s hit strongpoints and ammunition stores
in the Foret de Haye, Custines rail bridge, and a road bridge over the Mosel
River; escorting fighters provide general air cover in the Metz-Nancy area,
and support US Third Army ground forces in stemming a counterattack there;
800+ C-47s complete supply and evacuation missions; the southern invading
forces and those of the Normandy invasion meet; the City of Luxembourg is
liberated; HQ 70th Fighter Wing moves from Versailles to Marchais; and the
153d Liaison Squadron, IX Tactical Air Command (attached to First Army),
moves from St Cyr to Vuel, Belgium with L-5s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Austria, 344 B-17s and B-24s
bomb 5 ordnance depots and SE industrial area in Vienna and 2 oil refineries
in the area. 88 B-24s escorted by P-38s and P-51s bomb the port of Trieste,
Italy. and 45 B-24s, with P-51s escorting, fly a supply mission to Lyon,
France.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium bombers continue
the campaign against railroad bridges in the Po Valley and execute 4 attacks
against supply and ammunition dumps; fighter-bombers hit dumps and
communications as the ground assault on the Gothic Line commences during the
early morning. In France, XII Tactical Air Command fighters and fighter-
bombers blast communications in the Belfort and Dijon areas, cutting
railroads and hitting several trains.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): B-24s from Saipan Island hit Iwo Jima Island
and strike shipping near Iwo Jima.  Eniwetok Atoll-based B-24s bomb Truk
Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: On Celebes Island,
B-24s pound airfields at Langoan and Mapanget and hit Tomohon and the
waterfront area of Menado. On Halmahera Island, Lolobata and Hate Tabako
Airfields are bombed and areas along Wasile Bay strafed. B-25s, A-20s, and
P-38s hit airfields and oil storage at Namlea on Buru Island, and Amahai and
Boela on Ceram Island while B-24s hit Laha Airfield, Celebes Island. In New
Guinea, A-20s and fighters hit airfields at Samate, Sagan, Nabire, Urarom,
Manokwari, Moemi, and Ransiki; the 8th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron,
6th Photographic Reconnaissance Group, moves from Nadzab to Biak Island with
F-5s; and the 672d Bombardment Squadron (Light), 417th Bombardment Group
(Light), moves form Saidor to Noemfoor Island with A-20s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

10/0108Z SEP

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 21:28:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: PRESERVING SHIPS

Gotta get a plug in for my native state, New Jersey.  The Submarine Ling
(SS-297) is open for viewing at Court and River Streets in Hackensack, New
Jersey.  My wife and I went there a number of years ago and were given a
very interesting tour by an ex submariner who told us all kinds of personal
stories that always make these tours interesting.

According to my 1991 New Jersey tour book, the sub is open from 1000 to
1700 daily except major holdiays and it may be closed on Mondays and
Tuesdays during the winter.  In 1991, the price was $3 for adults and $2
for children.

For further information, call (201) 342-3268.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 22:13:50 -0500
From:    Bill Smith <bismith@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Ship Museums

My two cents:

Kidd is in reasonable shape, and part of a downtown museum complex and
shopping area in Baton Rouge.

Alabama and Drum(?-is that the right sub) are also joined by a eclectic
aircraft collection ranging from a P-51 and other static WWII vintage to
a B-52 and SR-71.  Alabama makes for an impressive interstate view, but
as you fly down I-10 outside Mobile you're on a two-lane bridge across
the bay.  Hard to watch the ship and the traffic.

For my money, the Alabama site is part of a nifty two-day museum swing
along the Gulf Coast.  Within 45 minutes of the Alabama is the Naval Air
Museum at Pensacola.  Another hour and a half (if the traffic is bad) is
Eglin AFB's Air Force Armanent Museum.

Now I'm sure if I'd been saving more of these posts I wouldn't have to
make this query, but has anyone decided to compile all these ships into a
easy list with locations.  I noticed someone posted a list from a
government document that was lengthy, but no sites were listed.  Any takers?

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 23:16:00 EST
From:    "CARL WERNKE (TCWERNC@VCCSCENT)" <TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Preserved World WarII ships book

 To: Multiple recipients of list WWII-L(WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU)
 In-Reply-To: James E. Irwin Fri, 9 Sep 1994 16:00:36 -0400



 James writes:
 >Minesweeper (what the hell was the abrev. for minesweeper ??)

              Minesweeper: (AM)
              Converted destroyers: Fast minesweepers: (DMS)
              Coastal minesweepers (AMc)
              Motor minesweepers (YMS)

  Carl Wernke
  TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 8 Sep 1994 to 9 Sep 1994
***********************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 9 Sep 1994 to 10 Sep 1994
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Status: O

There are 24 messages totalling 865 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. PRESERVING SHIPS (2)
  2. USS Saratoga
  3. USS SARATOGA
  4. INF: 50 Years Ago - 11-SEP-1944
  5. 50TH: LETTER HOME FROM BELGIUM
  6. Eisenhower's "hands tied"?  "Befehl is Befehl"?  Really?
  7. MASSACHUSSETTS' class (2)
  8. *Crankable* 40mm quad mount in the Wash. Navy Yard Museum
  9. Revisionist estimates of proposed Inv. of Jpn, by H-DIPLO academics
 10. Military history May 1995, Gettysburg (fwd)
 11. Re[2]: Preserved World War II ships book
 12. General Belgrano: Ship
 13. Mr. Coatney's comments on Eisenhower
 14. [WEAP] Re: Essex class carrier in Charleston
 15. WEAP: USS Hornet (and other Essex-class carriers)
 16. INF: USN Chronology 09-10-94
 17. Washington Navy Yard
 18. WEAP: MASSACHUSSETTS' class
 19. *Other* Holocausts, Mr. Weber
 20. MASSACHUSSETTS part of "INDIANA" class?  Nooooooo.  :-)
 21. WASHINGTON NAVY YARD
 22. WEAP - Hornet (CV12) still afloat (for now)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 23:59:11 EST
From:    "CARL WERNKE (TCWERNC@VCCSCENT)" <TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET>
Subject: Re: PRESERVING SHIPS

 To: Multiple recipients of list WWII-L(WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU)
 In-Reply-To: Jo Barone Fri, 9 Sep 1994 10:11:18 -0400



  Jo wrote:
  > I believe the Massachusetts is an Iowa class ship (my knowledge in naval
  > matters is rudimentary at best ! )

  The MASSACHUSETTS (BB-59) is one of the three INDIANA (BB-58) class
  battleships.

  *General information for the list*:
           Heavy cruisers mount 8-inch gun turrets.
           Light cruisers mount 6-inch gun turrets.


   These batteries are for main battery salvos (or salvoes).

   Carl Wernke
   TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 20:43:31 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <jimadams@UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Re: USS Saratoga

Yes, some of the aircraft, as well as other vehicles and equipment were
left on the Saratoga to measure bomb effects.  It was observed that
during the actual detonation that the planes on the flight deck were
washed overboard.  During the survey dives, in the hanger deck were found
three Curtiss SBF-4E "Helldiver" aircraft, stowed with their wings
folded.  The forward airplane's engine , cowling, and propeller have
detached from the plane and lie on  the deck.  There is a National
Geographic (I think it is Nat Geo) documentary called "Deadly Fathoms"
that shows footage of these planes in the hanger deck.

****************************************************************************
Jim Adams                       jimadams@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.edu
USS Arizona Memorial, NPS        (808) 423-7300
1 Arizona Memorial Place
Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
****************************************************************************

On Fri, 9 Sep 1994, Tim J. Watts wrote:

> Jim Adams:
> Do you know if the Sara still had any aircraft on board when they used
> her in the a-bomb test?  If there were any left in the hangar deck, would
> they still be in condition to interest WWII buffs who dove down there?
> Tim J. Watts
> Valparaiso University
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 21:12:42 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <jimadams@UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Re: USS SARATOGA

On Fri, 9 Sep 1994, Robert Hohlt wrote:

> Jim Adams wrote:
>
> >Some recent discussion about the Saratoga and wishes that she had been
> >preserved.  Although she was sunk in the Bikini a-bomb test, she has in a
> >sense been preserved and is a museum, accessible by divers.  There is a
> >proposal to make her into an underwater history park.  The National Park
> >Service conducted surveys of her (and other ships in Bikini) in 1989.  I
> >have copied part of the site description from the report here.
>
> I have a few questions about this underwater history park Jim.
>
> 1. Isn't the Saratoga still "HOT"?

No, that was part of the survey.  Radiation washes away rapidily in open
water conditions.  there is no more radiation there then what you have in
your house today.  The only restriction in the area, is on Bikini atoll,
people do live there now, but you can't eat any plants grown there as the
ground does contain some radiation that gets concentrated in plants if
eaten.
>
> 2. Who will be responsible for this underwater park? USA? Kwajalein?

If the park happens, it is by the local government (Bikini).  There is
some commercial (ie sport diving) occasionally now, but controlled.  I
went to Kwajalein last March with hopes of getting up to Bikini, but the
operation had shut back down again.

>
> BTW Jim, you guys at the Arizona Memorial are one CLASS ACT!
> I am looking forward to many more visits.  Is Dick Fisk
> (USS West Virginia) still acting as a tour guide there?
> I am a fan of his from the National Geographic story, and
> his appearances during the 50th anniversary of PH on TV.

Thanks, I'll pass it on to the staff.  Yes Dick Fisk is still there every
Friday.  As all of the Pearl Harbor veterans that work as volunteer
guides, he is great.

>
Jim Adams
Cultural Resource Manager
USS Arizona Memorial

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 10 Sep 1994 04:33:18 -0700
From:    John Davis <jbd@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 11-SEP-1944

On 11-SEP-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - Apart form the ports of Boulogne, Calais and Dunkirk, the
entire French Channel coast is now in Allied hands. The Allied advance
continues along the entire front. Patrols of the US 1st Army cross the German
border near Aachen, creating panic among the German defenders, but the action
is not followed up by the Allies. The British 2nd Army enters Holland and
takes an important bridgehead over the Meuse-Escaut canal.

Eastern Front - Bulgaria begins to evacuate its troops from the occupied
provinces of Yugoslavia.

Italian Front - The US IV Corps (5th Army) reaches the suburbs of Viareggio.
The South African 6th Armoured Division enters Pistoia

The Homefront
-------------
Dewey Says War Found US Unprepared - Gov. Thomas E. Dewey says in a Des Moines
press conference that "the Roosevelt administration made absolutely no
military preparations for the events it now says it foresaw and that the Army
numbered only 75,000." He says that it "is just as incapable of preparing for
peace."

10,000 Ask For GI Education Aid - The Veteran's Administration says 10,000
applications have been received for education aid under the "GI Bill of
Rights". The bill allows tuition fees of at least $10 a month, $30 a quarter
or $40 a semester in addition to paying other regular fees and costs of books,
supplies and equipment up to $500 a year.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  jbd@netcom.com
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 10 Sep 1994 14:39:38 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: 50TH: LETTER HOME FROM BELGIUM

          After leaving Paris, the 4th Division made an exhausting
          dash across northern France and Belgium to Germany. We
          left Paris on August 27 and crossed into Germany seventeen
          days later on September 13. My recollections for this period
          are limited. Fortunately, however, shortly before going into
          Germany, I wrote letters which remind me of events.  (Here
          is one of them.)

          Dear Folks, Sunday, September 10, 1944, Somewhere in
          Belgium

          Believe me when I say that this has been my first
          opportunity to write since we left Paris. As the press will tell
          you, things have been moving very rapidly. We go from early
          morning until late at night. Moving until we come across
          some Jerries, cleaning them out and then moving on again.
          By the time we stop in the evening, everyone is quite tired.
          For myself, I just eat and go to sleep.

          I expect we shall fight just one more hard battle. No doubt
          its outcome will have been decided before you receive this
          letter. When we have cracked the West Wall defenses, which
          are somewhat of an enigma to us just now, the German
          Wehrmacht as such will have been completely broken. True,
          they will be able to resist some; and, if the civilians decided
          to fight, this could turn into a pretty nasty mess, with a
          useless slaughter of men, women, and children. I hope this
          is unnecessary.

          These Belgians are an unusual group. To me, they vary
          greatly from the French. In many towns their welcome is
          every bit as enthusiastic as the French. There are generous
          supplies of wine, shouting, and flowers. However, they go in
          for kissing less, darn it! Their practice of giving out bread
          with butter is much more practical, though.

          The Belgians have their own army of the interior. It is
          usually referred to as the Maquis. It seems much better
          organized and more aggressive than the French Forces of the
          Interior (FFI). Certainly they have been of more value to us.
          We have been very well informed as to the enemies' location
          and strength all the time. They are of infinite value as a
          source of information.

          Yesterday we moved our CP (command post) into a Belgian
          home. They put out their flag for the first time in years.
          Across the field came a platoon of Maquis from out of the
          woods. Their commander called them to attention and they
          saluted the flag. The commander broke out with a profusion
          of tears. There was a strange silence. Then he got control of
          himself and dismissed the group. Being the nearest at hand,
          all came over and shook hands with me.

          The group started showing me their weapons, many dropped
          by parachute, some taken from the Germans. One showed
          me his .45, and in turn I showed him mine. Someone
          suggested a swap, which was immediately arranged. Now, I
          have his, and he has mine. Both of us are pleased.

          All the country we pass through is beautiful. This is rolling
          country, with many hills and steep valleys. Patches of
          woods, usually pine, dot the countryside. One couldn't call
          them forests, only woods. There are frequent valleys and
          small settlements of homes, apparently few towns or cities.

          But all goes well. We all have high hopes.

          Love, John

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 10 Sep 1994 10:03:39 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Eisenhower's "hands tied"?  "Befehl is Befehl"?  Really?

Terry,

     Thanks for noting/raising the issue.

     It would seem, then, that Eisenhower--like the German
generals--was just another amoral careerist (or, at best, blind
loyalist) who accepted evil orders unquestioningly.

     A man does not renounce his personal honor and humanity by
becoming a soldier.  Any soldier, who is a man, has a higher
loyalty than just to his orders.

     Indeed, although German officers could/should have seen the
tragedy Hitler was heading their Country/people toward, the
immorality of *Eisenhower's* orders--particularly after he had
just personally seen and denounced the horrible/Holocaust
consequences of "Befehl ist Befehl"--was so obvious and
unconscionable.

     Eisenhower knew what the revenge-crazed Soviets were doing
to German women and children, and he *had* the advantage of
hindsight, regarding "Befehl is Befehl."  Like any true bureau-
cratic careerist he was, fundamentally, a complete, amoral
hypocrite.

     (The sister of a German-American friend back in Juneau was
a nurse in a Wehmacht hospital in the East.  They were overrun
by the Soviets and eventually occupied by a Mongolian unit.  All
of the patients and (male) doctors were shot out of hand.  The
nurses were continually gang-raped for the following year, until
they died or were "snuffed" for fun.  She was the sole survivor,
although her ability to bear children had been destroyed.
     See Tolliver's BLOND KNIGHT OF GERMANY for Erich Hartmann's
account of what happened to the women and children belonging to
the Eastern members of his squadron, immediately after the
Americans had handed them over to the Soviets.  The GIs stood
there agape, as they watched the Soviets attack the Germans'
dependents.
     As you may have noted from my past posts, I do believe in
revenge and hard justice--the collective responsibility of
German male adults for the Second World War and the HolocaustS
was capital.  It is the innocents male adults have a duty to
protect.)

     (If Joe feels that this topic is too traumatic for continued
discussion on the list, please reply directly.)

Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 10 Sep 1994 10:08:04 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: MASSACHUSSETTS' class

Joe, et al:

     Close.  It was the war-construction SOUTH DAKOTA class.

     They were 200' shorter and 5 knots slower than the IOWAs,
but they packed all of the latter's gunpower on a more compact
platform.

Ed, Al:

     Do you know which design was more efficient, in terms of
"mileage," etc.?

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 10 Sep 1994 10:30:12 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: *Crankable* 40mm quad mount in the Wash. Navy Yard Museum

I could hardly drag my son--Robert:  13 at the time--out of it.

He couldn't decide which he wanted to sight-in more:  The Corsair
  or the ... ?

It's an *incredible* place!

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 10 Sep 1994 10:43:32 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Revisionist estimates of proposed Inv. of Jpn, by H-DIPLO academics

Forwarded message:
>From owner-h-diplo@UICVM.UIC.EDU Fri Sep  9 21:04 CDT 1994
Message-Id: <199409100204.AA02599@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu>
Date:         Fri, 9 Sep 1994 22:03:24 -0400
Reply-To: Diplomatic History discussion list <H-DIPLO@UICVM.UIC.EDU>
Sender: Diplomatic History discussion list <H-DIPLO@UICVM.UIC.EDU>
From: "Mike McCarthy, Marshall Univ." <MCCARTHY%MUVMS6@UICVM.UIC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Journalist seeks advice re A-bomb debate
To: Multiple recipients of list H-DIPLO <H-DIPLO@UICVM.UIC.EDU>
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 631

Date: Fri, 09 Sep 1994 16:56:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: Carlos R Rivera <crivera@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>

Re: Dr Wheatley and a-bomb--wouldn't any assertion from the "arms" industry
about the bomb suggest that the entire industry was aware about the Manhatten
Project, and if approximately 10,000 AMERICAN soldiers would have been the
costs of an invasion, the moral question for American leadership and the
population at large then seems to be: should we spare the Japanese the horror
of the bomb or "sacrifice" the 10,000 for the larger good.  By the way, is it
possible to get a citation on the "TLS" article mentioned.  Thank you

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 10 Sep 1994 11:01:37 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Military history May 1995, Gettysburg (fwd)

Forwarded message:
>From owner-milhst-l@UKANVM.CC.UKANS.EDU Thu Sep  8 15:37 CDT 1994
Message-Id: <199409082037.AA24665@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu>
Date:         Thu, 8 Sep 1994 13:13:26 CDT
Reply-To: Military History <MILHST-L%UKANVM@UIC.EDU>
Sender: Military History <MILHST-L%UKANVM@UIC.EDU>
Comments:     Resent-From: Pat Hughes <JPHUGHES@UKANVM>
From: Pat Hughes <JPHUGHES%UKANVM@UIC.EDU>
Subject:      Military history May 1995, Gettysburg (fwd)
To: Multiple recipients of list MILHST-L <MILHST-L%UKANVM@UIC.EDU>
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 2156

*** Forwarding note from KUHIST-L--UKANVM   09/08/94 11:43 ***
=========================================================================
Received: from UKANVM.CC.UKANS.EDU by UKANVM.CC.UKANS.EDU (Mailer R2.10 ptf000)
 with BSMTP id 1919; Thu, 08 Sep 94 11:42:46 CDT
Date:         Wed, 7 Sep 1994 16:48:32 -0500
Reply-To:     History at KU <KUHIST-L@UKANVM.BITNET>
Sender:       History at KU <KUHIST-L@UKANVM.BITNET>
From:         "Lynn H. Nelson" <lhnelson@UKANAIX.CC.UKANS.EDU>
Subject:      Military history May 1995, Gettysburg (fwd)
To:           Multiple recipients of list KUHIST-L <KUHIST-L@UKANVM.BITNET>

    CALL FOR PAPERS FOR 1995 SOCIETY FOR MILITARY HISTORY
         The 1995 annual meeting of the Society for Military
    History (formerly the  American Military History Institute)
    will be held from May 11 to 14, 1995, in Gettysburg, Pa.
    The U.S. Army War College will serve as the host
    institution. The theme of the meeting will be "War
    Termination and Transitions to New Eras." The theme has been
    chosen with an eye to the 50th anniversary of the end of
    World War II.  Prospective presentations could include such
    topics as concluding campaigns, political-military efforts
    to end hostilities, efforts to glean doctrinal lessons, wars
    of succession, military occupation and interim governments,
    the status of veterans, and the reorientation and
    reconfiguration of military establishments.  Apart from the
    focal period of 1944-1950, panels wich compare similar
    phenomena among different eras are also welcome, as are
    other stimulating papers on military affairs.  Proposals for
    individual papers or complete sessions are solicited.
          Submit abstracts of proposals, no more than one page
    in length, to the meeting coordinator, Mr. David A. Keough,
    SMH 1995 Meeting, U.S.Army Military History Institute,
    Carlisle Barracks, Pa., 17013-5008, no later than November
    1, 1994.  Questions and requests for additional information
    should be sent to Mr. Keough, who can be contacted at (717)
    245-3189 [office] or keoughd@carlisle-emh2.army.mil
    [e-mail].

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 10 Sep 1994 11:22:33 CDT
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Re[2]: Preserved World War II ships book

The USS Inaugrial is gone now--she sank from her moor at St. Louis near
the arch during the great flood of '93 and hasn;t been seen since--she
is probably near Louisiana about now.  Sad but true.  Seriously--they
don;t know where she went--lost in the Mississippi River somewhere.  TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 10 Sep 1994 10:25:52 -0700
From:    Ed Kettler <deradler@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: General Belgrano: Ship

The General Belgrano was the former USS Phoenix, a Pearl Harbor survivor.

Ed Kettler                                       deradler@netcom.com


On Fri, 9 Sep 1994, David Rising wrote:

> Reading all of this info on the retirement of U.S. ships got me to
> thinking. Wasn't the main Argentine ship of the Falklands war, the _General
> Belgrano_ (I may have this wrong, I'm relying on memory) one of the ships
> which survived the attack on Pearl Harbour? I seem to remember thinking
> that it was a shame for us to have sold it. Just wondering,
> David Rising
>
> P.S. I posted this before, but given the new thread on French gratitude,
> I'll say it again: When de Gaulle requested that the U.S. remove all
> troops from French soil, Sec of State Dean Rusk (I think) replied,
> "would you like us to exhume all of the bodies from your cemetaries as
> well?" I have yet to find a statement which sums it up better than this.
>

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 10 Sep 1994 13:42:24 -0400
From:    "Benjamin B. Weber" <bweber@MOOSE.UVM.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mr. Coatney's comments on Eisenhower

On Sat, 10 Sep 1994, Louis R. Coatney wrote:

> Terry,
>
>      Thanks for noting/raising the issue.
>
>      It would seem, then, that Eisenhower--like the German
> generals--was just another amoral careerist (or, at best, blind
> loyalist) who accepted evil orders unquestioningly.
>
>      A man does not renounce his personal honor and humanity by
> becoming a soldier.  Any soldier, who is a man, has a higher
> loyalty than just to his orders.
>
>      Indeed, although German officers could/should have seen the
> tragedy Hitler was heading their Country/people toward, the
> immorality of *Eisenhower's* orders--particularly after he had
> just personally seen and denounced the horrible/Holocaust
> consequences of "Befehl ist Befehl"--was so obvious and
> unconscionable.
>
>      Eisenhower knew what the revenge-crazed Soviets were doing
> to German women and children, and he *had* the advantage of
> hindsight, regarding "Befehl is Befehl."  Like any true bureau-
> cratic careerist he was, fundamentally, a complete, amoral
> hypocrite.
>
>      (The sister of a German-American friend back in Juneau was
> a nurse in a Wehmacht hospital in the East.  They were overrun
> by the Soviets and eventually occupied by a Mongolian unit.  All
> of the patients and (male) doctors were shot out of hand.  The
> nurses were continually gang-raped for the following year, until
> they died or were "snuffed" for fun.  She was the sole survivor,
> although her ability to bear children had been destroyed.
>      See Tolliver's BLOND KNIGHT OF GERMANY for Erich Hartmann's
> account of what happened to the women and children belonging to
> the Eastern members of his squadron, immediately after the
> Americans had handed them over to the Soviets.  The GIs stood
> there agape, as they watched the Soviets attack the Germans'
> dependents.
>      As you may have noted from my past posts, I do believe in
> revenge and hard justice--the collective responsibility of
> German male adults for the Second World War and the HolocaustS
> was capital.  It is the innocents male adults have a duty to
> protect.)
>
>      (If Joe feels that this topic is too traumatic for continued
> discussion on the list, please reply directly.)
>
> Lou Coatney, mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu
>

Perhaps someone could help me here.  I am always confused by the
implication that Mr. Coatney has made above that (particularly) Soviet
retribution vis-a-vis the Germans after WWII was somehow a response to
the Holocaust.  Andreas Hillgruber made this point devastatingly clear in
his 1986 book "Zweierlei Untergang: Die Zerschlagung des Deutschen
Reiches und das Ende des Europaeischen Judentums," (Dual Decline: The
Desimation of the German Reich and the End of European Jewry. -the
work has not to my knowledge been translated - sorry).  In his book
Hillgruber takes for granted that current historiography maintains that
the harsh treatment of Germans in the East was a reaction to the
Holocaust and then trys to say that such treatment was, in fact,
completely unjustified because the Allies were not yet aware of the full
implications of the Nazi death camps.
        I am confused because I have always felt that the harsh Soviet
treatment of the Germans was the result of two entirely different causes.
The first is the brutality that accompanies virtually every war.  The
second is a soviet reaction to the brutality of the Nazis during the
occupation of Soviet territory.  I am confused, therefore, by Mr.
Coatney's assertion that the Soviets should have exacted their retribution
against German males as the ones responsible for the Holocaust.
(Furthermore, I think that some reference to Claudia Koonz's "Mothers in
the Fatherland" is in order to establish whether German women were
innocent of all complicity in Nazi crimes.)
        If someone could please explain to me the logic which says that
we should see the Holocaust and the Soviet retribution against the
Germans as somehow connected I would appreciate it.  Frankly it escapes me.

Thanks,
Benjamin B. Weber
bweber@moose.uvm.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 10 Sep 1994 16:12:29 -0400
From:    John Peterson <PETERSJL3522@SNYONEVA.CC.ONEONTA.EDU>
Subject: Re: [WEAP] Re: Essex class carrier in Charleston

>Date: Thu, 08 Sep 1994 12:55:14 -0500 (CDT)
>From: Robert Hohlt <rhohlt@MGMSERV1.MGM.SAIC.COM>
>
>>There is a carrier (along with a Sumner-class Destroyer and submarine) that
>>has been turned into a museum in Charleston, South Carolina but my memory
>>from that visit 8 years ago is so bad that I wouldn't even phantom a guess
>>as to name and class.
>
>>Ron Babuka
>
>Ron,
>
>I think that is the Yorktown (CV-10).
>
>Robert Hohlt, Jr.

Hi all.  Isn't the Yorktown at Patriot's Point the former Bon Homme Richard?
I seem to remember that it was being built when the original Yorktown was
sunk, and they decided to rename it.  I visited it about ten years ago, so
I don't remember too well.

Also at P.P. there is a sub and a destroyer, the names of which I don't recall.
The merchant ship there is the only (I think) nuclear powered merchant ship
ever built.  It worked well, but was too expensive to maintain.

I've seen the North Carolina but never been on it.  It's very impressive at
night when they have it lit up.

That's all for now, hope I haven't rambled too much...
Cheers-
John Peterson
PETERSJL3522@SNYONEVA.CC.ONEONTA.EDU

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 10 Sep 1994 16:17:42 -0400
From:    John Peterson <PETERSJL3522@SNYONEVA.CC.ONEONTA.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: USS Hornet (and other Essex-class carriers)

>Date: Thu, 8 Sep 1994 16:28:19 CCS
>From: Jorge Merino <jem@VNET.IBM.COM>
>
>Here is a list of some Essex-class carriers I can recall from memory
>now, I hope someone of you could complete/correct this list. I think
>they are the oldest fleet carriers now surviving. Ok, here is the list:
>
>No.     Name                 Status
>-------------------------------------------------------------------

   [stuff deleted]

>CV-34   Oriskany
>
>Jorge Merino

The Oriskany was sold for scrap a couple of years ago.  Some part of it, I
think an anchor, is preserved as a monument in Oriskany, NY.

Too bad we can't save 'em all...

John Peterson
PETERSJL3522@SNYONEVA.CC.ONEONTA.EDU

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 10 Sep 1994 13:37:57 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 09-10-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
09/10 Sun. Command designated United States Naval Forces France
           (Vice Adm. A. G. Kirk) is established with
           headquarters at Paris, France.
            United States naval vessel damaged:
             Minesweeper SEER (AM-112), by mine, Southern France
              area,
              42 d. 59'N., 06 d. 20'E.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 10 Sep 1994 17:26:53 EDT
From:    Richard Kaplan <kaplanr@CLP2.CLPGH.ORG>
Subject: Washington Navy Yard

I am enjoying this thread on preserved ships and sites, its giving me some
goals for future vacations.

I was in DC about a month ago and was able to see the exhibit on prpaganda at
the National Archives, and the one on war correspondents at the National
Portrait Gallery. Both of them were well worthwhile, as was the "What is War"
photo essay at the archives flanking the Constitution and Declaration.  Now
I've known of the existance of the Navy and Marine Museums as it were in
or near the Navy Yard. What I'd like to know, is what Navy museum
or history center is opposite the rear side of the National Archives.  I forget
the street name, but in front of it is a circular memorial to sailors
consisting of 5 or 6 ships masts, and a lifesize bronze sailor with seabag
(duffel to the ground types among us).



                                        Richard Kaplan
                                        Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 10 Sep 1994 18:31:10 EST
From:    "CARL WERNKE (TCWERNC@VCCSCENT)" <TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET>
Subject: Re: WEAP: MASSACHUSSETTS' class

 To: Multiple recipients of list(WWII-L@UBVM.CC.EDU)



 Louis R. Coatney's Sat, 10 Sep 1994 10:08:04 -0500

 Lou wrote:

 >Close. It (MASSACHUSSETTS) was the war-construction SOUTH DAKOTA class.
 >They were 200' shorter and 5 knots slower than the IOWA.

 Fahey's _The Ships and Aircraft of the United States Fleet_, Second War
 Edition, page 5, indicates:
                 Three Ships: INDIANA Class of 1938
                                                   _Commissioned_



      INDIANA (BB-58)                         Apr 30, 1942
      MASSACHUSETTS (BB-59)                   May 15, 1942
      ALABAMA (BB-60)                         Aug 15, 1942


   Carl Wernke
   TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 10 Sep 1994 18:20:59 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: *Other* Holocausts, Mr. Weber

The Jewish Holocaust wasn't the only one.  The Soviets
  had already discovered on their own territory what the
  Nazi Germans were doing to Russians, Jews, Belorussians,
  ..., in such camps.  Auschwitz was nothing new to its
  Soviet liberators -- not that the NKVD didn't have similar
  installations itself -- just more efficient.

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 10 Sep 1994 18:43:26 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: MASSACHUSSETTS part of "INDIANA" class?  Nooooooo.  :-)

JANE'S FIGHTING SHIPS OF WORLD WAR II (excerpts of the various
  JANE'Ss), 1989.

CONWAY'S ALL THE WORLD'S FIGHTING SHIPS, 1922-1946, 1980.

Siegfried Breyer's BATTLESHIPS AND BATTLECRUISERS, 1905-1970, 197?

U.S. NAVAL VESSELS, 1943, 1986  (Based on the Nov43 ONI-54s)

*All* say it's the SOUTH DAKOTA class, Carl.

I can't find further confirmation for you in the text of John C.
  Reilly's OPERATIONAL EXPERIENCE OF FAST BATTLESHIPS; .... , but
  one of the photographs at the back is captioned "ALABAMA shows
  off the SOUTH DAKOTA class' compact silhouette."

It sounds to me like Fahey has set up his own classes, and it
  always pays to check more than one source, especially when
  you're playing "Gotcha!"  :-)

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 10 Sep 1994 19:51:50 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: WASHINGTON NAVY YARD

The building at the rear of the National Archives across Pennsylvania Avenue is
the Navy Memorial Foundation. It was established about 10 years ago, more or
less, is very well endowed, the statue you saw is the lonesome sailor,
depicting all U.S. Navy sailors. The center of the plaza in which he stands is
a map of the world, while encircling this area is a concrete wall in which are
embedded a number of dedicated plaques--to the Seabees, to destroyermen, to
Marines, and the like. in the center there is a theater much like the one at
the air and space museum where is shown on a very high and wide screen a movie,
"At Sea," I think it is called and what the gent who made the air and space
museum movie, "To Fly," has done is to cover all aspects of Navy life beginning
with the deployment of a modern aircraft carrier and its crew and covering
force. Some great shots and well worth seeing. There is also a gift shop which
has some unique items. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 10 Sep 1994 18:20:37 -0700
From:    John Riegsecker <RIEGSECKER@UPS.EDU>
Subject: WEAP - Hornet (CV12) still afloat (for now)

Earlier this week I said I thought the Hornet (CV12) was in the
moth-ball fleet in Bremerton, but someone said she had been scrapped.
Since I knew I had seen her not long ago, I decided to combine an
expedition to second-hand stores in nearby Port Orchard with an on-site
inspection.

The moth-balled ships are tied up next to the highway that goes into the
Bremerton Naval yard and there is a parking lot outside the gates.
Unfortunately, most of the ships are off the naval yard so you can't
walk up to them, but BB62 (New Jersery) and BB63 (Missiouri) are easy to
recognize.  I could also make out CV41 (Midway), but no Hornet.  I decided to
go to a little naval museum in Bremerton and ask them.  When I got there the
gentleman at the desk was explaining to a couple that the carrier
they had seen being towed out that morning was Hornet!!  When I asked him
for more details he said that Hornet was being taken to Harbor Point CA
where it will be broken up for scrap.  I probably missed by less than an
hour the sight of Hornet being towed out of the harbor for the last
time.

He had a list of ships in the "junk yard" there and I began writing down
the names of WWII vintage ships.  In addition to the two BB's and Midway there
was Bennington CV20 and Oriskany CV34.  As I wrote down Oriskany, he
said, "No, she was taken out right behind Hornet."  So, despite a
previous note, I think she too is under way to the wrecking ball.  Of
course her anchor could have been taken off long ago.

Mr. Larry Kohrt, the gentleman in charge, was very well-informed and
helpful.  When I told him about WWII-L he asked me if I would post the
following:

The Enterprise Association will be meeting in Bremerton on 9/15,9/17.
While there, they will donate an exhibit to the naval museum.

John Riegsecker
Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
University of Puget Sound

riegsecker@ups.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 10 Sep 1994 19:25:53 -0700
From:    Ed Kettler <deradler@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: MASSACHUSSETTS' class

Lou,

These numbers are from Dulin and Garzke's US Battleships of WW2:

SD class:       ~7000 t fuel oil
                17,000 nm at 15 knots, 6400 at 25 knots

IA class:       ~8000-8800 t fuel oil
                18,000 nm at 12 knots, 15,900 at 17 ands 5300 at 29.6

Not being a naval architect, I can't say for sure, but the SD does look
to win the Shell fuel efficiency contest at low speeds.

Ed
Kettler                                       deradler@netcom.com


On Sat, 10 Sep 1994, Louis R. Coatney wrote:

> Joe, et al:
>
>      Close.  It was the war-construction SOUTH DAKOTA class.
>
>      They were 200' shorter and 5 knots slower than the IOWAs,
> but they packed all of the latter's gunpower on a more compact
> platform.
>
> Ed, Al:
>
>      Do you know which design was more efficient, in terms of
> "mileage," etc.?
>
> Lou Coatney
>

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 10 Sep 1994 20:27:42 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: PRESERVING SHIPS

Hi. Ben...
Inappropriate heding, but taking upon your comment about military
music.
A huge topic, as you know.
One famous incidence of an intreprid bag-piper was whern Lord Lovat's
commando unit -- Lovats Scouts -- landed on D-Day, a pipe-major led the
way.  I beleive the piper actually went back to Normandy last June for
the 50th Anniversary.
REgards -- Sidney.

--

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 9 Sep 1994 to 10 Sep 1994
************************************************

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Status: O

There are 14 messages totalling 781 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. WEAP: torpedoes (2)
  2. INF: USN Chronology 09-11-94
  3. MASSACHUSSETTS part of "INDIANA" class ? Nooooooo. :-)
  4. JANE'S FIGHTING SHIPS OF WORLD WAR II:  Source
  5. Buzz Bombs
  6. Behavior of Red Army in Eastern Europe, by Burt Knight
  7. INF: 50 Years Ago - 12-SEP-1944
  8. INF: Eastern Front Red Army
  9. [INF] USAAF 11 SEP 44
 10. [INF] USAAF 12 SEP 44
 11. Japanese sailors (2)
 12. Japanese sailors -- Fanatical too?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 11 Sep 1994 01:08:39 EDT
From:    Thomas Nephew <ThomasN528@AOL.COM>
Subject: WEAP: torpedoes

What were the speeds and ranges of the major American and Japanese torpedoes
(Mark-14,-18,Long Lance)?  Were air-dropped torpedoes different in these or
other respects from destroyer- or sub-launched ones?

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 11 Sep 1994 01:13:57 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 09-11-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
09/11 Mon.  Japanese naval vessel sunk:
             Submarine chaser NO. 165, by submarine ALBACORE
              (SS-218), off Kyushu, Japan,
              32 d. 20'N., 131 d.  50'E.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 11 Sep 1994 01:12:15 EST
From:    "CARL WERNKE (TCWERNC@VCCSCENT)" <TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET>
Subject: MASSACHUSSETTS part of "INDIANA" class ? Nooooooo. :-)

 To: Multiple recipients of list WWII-L(WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU)
 In-Reply-To: "Louis R.Coatney" at Sep 10, 94  18:43:26  -0500


 Lou,

 Thanks for your five credible sources ref. MASSACHUSSETTS being a unit of the
 SOUTH DAKOTA class. An excellent source is my favorite, _JANE'S FIGHTING
 SHIPS OF WORLD WAR II_,and excerpts of the various JANE'S. This source was
 always available when I was on board ship (which was almost continuous).
 I sure could use one to make my personal library complete, of course, at a
 nominal price. Do you have any suggestions ?

 Carl Wernke
 TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 11 Sep 1994 14:11:07 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: JANE'S FIGHTING SHIPS OF WORLD WAR II:  Source

Carl (et al?):

Item 5480P, Scholar's Bookshelf, 110 Melrich Rd, Cranbury NJ
  08512.  $29.95 plus $4.00 postage.

Also -- :-) -- Paul H. Silverstone's little handbook, U.S. WARSHIPS
  OF WORLD WAR II, lists "South Dakota class" (p. 28).

Regarding J'S:  Enjoy!

Lou

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 11 Sep 1994 15:06:48 -0500
From:    Bob Milan <Bob_Milan@MINET.GOV.MB.CA>
Subject: Buzz Bombs

Today my father-in-law was telling me about his "buzz bomb" experiences in
London during the war. Several questions arose such as what did they sound
like, what kind of engines did they have, their explosive power, etc. I
would appreciate any information regarding the above questions. Thanks.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 11 Sep 1994 15:45:01 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Behavior of Red Army in Eastern Europe, by Burt Knight

Forwarded message:
>From 72241.2341@compuserve.com Sat Sep 10 20:01 CDT 1994
Date: 10 Sep 94 21:00:35 EDT
From: Burt Knight <72241.2341@compuserve.com>
To: "\"Louis R. Coatney\"" <mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu>
Subject: *Other* Holocausts, Mr. Weber
Message-Id: <940911010035_72241.2341_CHU73-1@CompuServe.COM>
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 2778

The russian front line troops were 'not bad' according to German, Polish,
Estonian, Russian and other sources. The rear echelon troops 'were pigs'
according to a statement made by a Soviet Lieutenant to Erich Marseille.  The
same treatment the Russians gave Germans at the end of the war was also visited
upon all other peoples they 'liberated'.  As to the extreme cruelty of rapes,
murders, etc.,  that was not the result of the russians having seen holocausts
but of the most effective propaganda machine ever devised, the Soviet propaganda
machine.  The exhortations of Ilya Ehrenberg to destroy the german male and take
the german female were repeated daily over broadcasts to troops.  The front-line
troops did not hear them regularly but the rear echelon troops were subjected to
it daily and came to believe that rape, looting and murder were their privelege
and were permitted by the higher command as a form of revenge for what had
happened to 'mother Russia under the Fascist invaders'.  It wasn't until several
weeks after the fall of Berlin that Ehrenberg was taken 'off the air' and a more
moderate line was taken.  Troops that were caught committing excesses afterwards
were summarily punished.

In 1944-45, the Red Army was essentially out of control.  High command would
make decisions on which way to attack but units operated very 'free-bootingly'
(if that is a word.)  J.E. Johnson describes encountering a Guards Fighter unit
over Berlin in April 1945- 'Their formation was more like a flock of starlings,
constantly changing.  Occasionally small sections would break off and attack
something on the ground.' (paraphrased- I haven't read 'Wing Leader' in 15
years)

In Odessa and Kiev, Red Army troops acquired a reputation for raping even
russian women.  What wasn't destroyed in Warsaw by battle was destroyed by the
Red Army after liberation.  That Germany itself suffered the same destruction is
understandable-  the desire for revenge was drilled into every soldier.

As a final note on the Red Army rear echelon troops, there are a number of cases
of allied POWs being killed by the rear echelon troops after the camps were
liberated.  RRS Tuck was believed to have been killed by the Soviets and his
family notified.  He, fortunately, turned up alive.  The Soviets weren't going
to let him out of the country and he was held with a front line unit as it
attacked until he 'escaped' again.  My uncle, Lt., USAAF, was a POW at Sagan.
When the Red Army liberated the camp, he was subjected to some intense pressure
for a month before he finally got in touch with other Americans.  They thought
he was either a Russian traitor masquerading as an American or a German trying
to avoid captivity.  He's of Czech ancestry, speaks German and Czech fluently.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 11 Sep 1994 14:44:53 -0700
From:    John Davis <jbd@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 12-SEP-1944

On 12-SEP-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The Germans surrender in Le Havre to the British I Corps and
12,000 men are taken prisoner. Additional US 1st Army units reach the German
border between Aachen and Trier.

Italian Front - The second battle for the capture of the Coriano hill-top
begins.

Palau Islands - US battleships, cruisers and carriers begin an intensive
bombardment of the Palaus in advance of the landing.

Naval Dispatches
----------------
Destroyer FULLAM (DD-474) damaged by collision, Palau Islands.

Japanese destroyer SHIKINAMI sunk by submarine GROWLER (SS-215), South China
Sea.

Japanese frigate HIRATO sunk by submarine GROWLER (SS-215), South China Sea.

Foreign Affairs
---------------
Rumania - An armistice between Rumania, the Soviet Union, Great Britain and
the United States is signed in Moscow. Rumania will take part in the war
against Germany and Hungary. The frontier between the USSR and Rumania will be
that fixed by the Soviet-Rumanian agreement of June 29, 1940. The USSR
promises that Transyvania will be restored to Rumania.

The Homefront
-------------
Nimitz and Bradley Promoted - President Roosevelt has nominated Lt. Gen. Omar
N. Bradley for the permanent rank of major general and Admirals Chester W.
Nimitz and Royal Ingersoll, Pacific and Atlantic Fleet commanders to the
temporary rank of admiral. They hold permanent rank as rear admirals but are
temporary admirals by virtue of their present commands.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  jbd@netcom.com
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 11 Sep 1994 19:10:22 EDT
From:    Burt Knight <72241.2341@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: INF: Eastern Front Red Army

To settle a tempest in a teapot and as a general note of info for the list, I've
prepared the following monograph.  This is from memory but I believe it is
accurate.  I though I had lost the original and Lou Coatney was kind enough
to retransmit it but, after reading it over, I saw a few flaws and
inaccuracies (after working 15 hours, you'd make some mistakes too!) so
I've corrected the errors, added more detail when I could and listed some source
s.

The Red Army front line troops were 'not bad' according to German, Polish,
Estonian, Russian and other sources. The rear echelon troops 'were pigs'
according to a statement made by a Soviet Lieutenant to Erich Marseille.  The
same treatment the Russians gave Germans at the end of the war was also visited
upon all other peoples they 'liberated'.  As to the extreme cruelty of rapes,
murders, etc.,  that was not the result of the russians having seen holocausts
or death camps but of the most effective disinformation system ever devised, the
Soviet propaganda machine. The exhortations of Ilya Ehrenberg to destroy the
german male and take the german female were repeated daily over broadcasts to
troops and in all the print media.  The front-line troops did not hear them
regularly but the rear echelon troops were subjected to it daily and came to
believe that rape, looting and murder were their privilege and were permitted
and sanctioned by the higher command as a form of revenge for what had happened
to 'mother Russia under the Fascist invaders'.  It wasn't until several weeks
after the fall of Berlin that Ehrenberg was taken 'off the air' and a more
moderate line was taken.  Troops that were caught committing excesses afterwards
were summarily punished.

In 1944-45, the Red Army was essentially out of control.  High command would
make decisions on which way to attack but units operated very 'free-bootingly'
(if that is a word.)  J.E. Johnson describes encountering a Guards Fighter unit
over Berlin in April 1945- 'Their formation was more like a flock of starlings,
constantly changing.  Occasionally small sections would break off and attack
something on the ground.  In this way, the Russians worked over the dying city.'
(paraphrased- I haven't read 'Wing Leader' in 15 years).  Red Army Tank Rider
units had 'a supply system which seemed to be based on looting but, then,
somehow, they continued to get ammunition so they must have had some supply
organization...' (Infantry Weapons of WW2, Ballentine's Illustrated History of
the Violent Century).

In Odessa and Kiev, Red Army troops acquired a reputation for raping even
Russian women who lived in towns that had been occupied by the Germans.  What
wasn't destroyed in many eastern european cities by battle was destroyed by the
Red Army after liberation.  That Germany itself suffered the same destruction is
understandable-  the desire for revenge was drilled into every soldier.  The
front line troops were too busy attacking to be destructive for the sake of
destruction but the rear echelon....

Additionally, the 'brutish' asians, as Goebbels called them, were coming from a
rural agrarian society (many of them, anyway) and were unfamiliar with western
'luxuries'.  Cornelius Ryan has commentary on Red Army troops carefully
unscrewing lightbulbs to take back to their villages, believing that the light
was totally self contained and would light for them when they got home. Another
russian was washing his potatoes in a fancy porcelain bowl containing water when
he wondered what the chain was hanging by the back of the device so he pulled it
and flushed his dinner right down the toilet.

As a final note on the Red Army rear echelon troops, there are a number of cases
of allied POWs being killed by the rear echelon troops after the POW camps were
liberated.  RRS Tuck was believed to have been killed by the Soviets and his
family notified.  He, fortunately, turned up alive but was only allowed the
leave the USSR after diplomatic circles made a lot of noise.  The Soviets
weren't going to let him out of the country and he was held with a front line
unit as it attacked until he 'escaped' again.  My uncle, Lt., USAAF, was a POW
at Sagan.  When the Red Army liberated the camp, he was subjected to some
intense pressure for a month before he finally got in touch with other
Americans.  They thought he was either a Russian traitor masquerading as an
American or a German trying to avoid captivity.  He's of Czech ancestry, speaks
German and Czech fluently.

BWK, ZiffDavis Interactive Shareware Library, Cambridge, Ma.

Sources:  'The Last Battle', Cornelius Ryan
        'Reach For the Sky', Paul Brickhill
        'Fly For Your Life', Larry Forrester
        'Wing Leader', JE Johnson
        'I Attack' Ilya Ehrenberg
        'The Black March', Peter Neumann
        'Vlasov', Sven Stenburg
        'The Blond Knight of Germany' Raymond Tolliver
        Several other books and papers whose names escape me at this time

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 11 Sep 1994 20:16:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 11 SEP 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
MONDAY, 11 SEPTEMBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-6, North American Mustang
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  P-61, Northrop Black Widow

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 4 B-25s on a shipping search sink a small
craft off Shimushu Island, Kurile Islands; 2 other B-25s fly a search mission
for a B-25 (which force-landed in USSR on 9 Sep but is still reported as
missing).

  CANADA: The second Quebec conference opens; President Franklin D Roosevelt
and Prime Minister Winston S Churchill discuss Pacific war plans and
completion of the European war.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): 12 P-47s hit roads, towns, and general
targets of opportunity in the Bhamo, Burma and Tengchung and Lungling, China
areas; 23 B-24s fly fuel to Kunming, China; numerous other transport flights
throughout the CBI continue. Detachments of the 2d and 4th Combat Cargo
Squadrons, 1st Combat Cargo Group, based at Sylhet, India, begin operating
from Yunnani, China with C-47s.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 18 B-24s blast a storage area at
Manling; 30 B-25s bomb Tunganhsien and Kiaotow and hit targets of opportunity
in the Lingling area; 12 P-40s blast trucks along Burma Road and around
Lungling; 59 P-40s and P-51s hit river shipping, railroad targets, troop
concentrations, supply dumps, and other targets of opportunity in the Canton-
Tungting Lake area.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  AIRBORNE OPERATIONS (IX Troop Carrier Command): HQ 440th Troop Carrier
Group moves from Exeter, England to Reims.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Two missions are flown.
  Mission 623: 1,131 bombers and 440 fighters are dispatched to hit synthetic
oil plants and refineries in Germany; AAF encounters an estimated 525
Luftwaffe fighters; 40 bombers and 17 fighters are lost; AAF claim 115-7-23
aircraft in the air and 42-0-43 on the ground:
  1. 384 B-17s are dispatched to hit oil refineries at Bohlen (75), Chemnitz
(75), Brux (39) and Ruhland (22); the Chemnitz force is an Operation FRANTIC
force that along with 64 P-51s, continues on and lands in the USSR; targets
of opportunity are a tire plant at Fulda (66), a marshalling yard at Fulda
(40) and 16 others; they claim 12-16-1 aircraft; 16 B-17s are lost, 3 damaged
beyond repair and 94 damaged; 2 airmen are KIA, 4 WIA and 153 MIA. Escort is
provided by 252 of 275 P-51s; they claim 57-2-12 aircraft in the air and
26-0-25 on the ground; 4 P-51s are lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 5
damaged; 4 pilots are MIA.
  2. 351 B-17s are dispatched to hit oil refineries at Merseburg (111) and
Lutzkendorf (96); targets of opportunity hit are Eisennach (71), Labejum
(12), Rossla (6) and 25 others; they claim 1-1-2 aircraft; 13 B-17s are lost,
2 damaged beyond repair and 106 damaged; 2 airmen are KIA, 21 WIA and 120
MIA. Escort is provided by 247 P-47s and P-51s; they claim 13-0-1 aircraft in
the air and 4-0-2 on the ground; 3 P-51s are lost, 2 damaged beyond repair
and 2 P-47s and 4 P-51s damaged; 3 pilots are MIA.
  3. 396 B-24s are dispatched to hit an engine factory at Hannover (88), oil
refineries at Misburg (87) and Magdeburg (33) and an ordinance depot at
Magdeburg (27); targets of opportunity hit are Magdeburg (70), Stendal (45),
Diepholz (9) and 3 others; they claim 4-8-1 aircraft; 10 B-24s are lost, 2
damaged beyond repair and 179 damaged; 1 airman is KIA, 13 WIA and 102 MIA.
Escort is provided by 164 P-38s and P-51s; they claim 45-5-10 aircraft in the
air and 12-0-16 on the ground; 10 P-51s are lost, 4 damaged beyond repair and
7 damaged; 14 pilots are MIA.
  Mission 625: 6 of 6 B-17s drop leaflets on France and Germany during the
night.
  38 B-24s fly CARPETBAGGER missions during the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, 358 B-26s and A-20s,
escorted by fighters, in support of the US Third Army, hit gun positions and
strongpoints in the Metz area; in Germany, fighters fly armed reconnaissance
over the Lissendorf and Duren areas, and support Third Army ground forces in
the Metz area; armored reconnaissance elements of this Army cross into
Germany, the first Allied unit to do so; fighters also support ground forces
in the Brest, France area; HQ IX Tactical Air Command moves from Versailles
to Janoulx, Belgium; HQ 363d Tactical Reconnaissance Group and the 161st
Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron move from Azeville to Le Mans and Montrevil
respectively with F-6s; HQ 368th Fighter Group and the 395th, 396th and 397th
Fighter Squadrons move from Chartres to Laon/Athies with P-47s; HQ 370th
Fighter Group and the 402d and 485th Fighter Squadrons move from Lonray to
Roye/Amy with P-38s; HQ 397th Bombardment Group (Medium) moves from Gorges to
Dreux; the 386th and 388th Fighter Squadrons, 365th Fighter Group, move from
Bretigny to Juvincourt with P-47s; the 394th Fighter Squadron, 367th Fighter
Group, moves from Pera to Clastres with P-38s; the 425th Night Fighter
Squadron, IX Air Defense Command, moves from Le Moustoiris to Coulommiers
with P-61s; the 506th Fighter Squadron, 404th Fighter Group, moves from
Bretigny to Juvincourt with P-47s; and the 510th Fighter Squadron, 405th
Fighter Group, moves from Picauville to St Dizier with P-47s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Bad weather limits operations
to supply mission by 54 B-24s to France.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-26s hit defensive
positions as US Fifth Army elements push through N Italian mountain passes
toward Gothic Line defenses; B-25s bomb railroad bridges at Vigevano and
Canneto sull'Oglio and supply areas; fighter-bombers and fighters attack
roads, railroads, guns, supply areas, bridges, and other targets at Vernio,
and in the Alessandria, Turin, Piacenza, and Milan areas; and the 65th and
66th Fighter Squadrons, 57th Fighter Group, move from Alto, Corsica to
Ombrone, Italy with P-47s. The 522d Fighter Squadron, 27th Fighter Group,
moves from Salon to Loyettes, France with P-47s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): Saipan Island-based B-24s bomb Iwo Jima Island
and hit shipping off Chici Jima Island. P-47s pound Pagan Island with
strafing attacks and rockets.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: B-24s hit airfields
at Galela and Miti on Halmahera Island. B-25s bomb Kairatoe Airfield and
village on Celebes Island and Boela Airfield on Ceram Island while P-38s hit
airfields at Namlea on Buru Island and Amahai and oil tanks at Boela, Ceram
Island. A-20s and B-25s hit Kaoe Airfield on Halmahera Island and scattered
targets of opportunity. In New Guinea, A-20s strike Otawiri, Sagan, Nabire,
and Urarom Airfields while fighter-bombers hit airfields and AA guns at
Manokwari and Ransiki; the 110th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron, 71st
Tactical Reconnaissance Group, moves from Tadji to Biak Island with P-40s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

12/0019Z SEP

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 11 Sep 1994 20:32:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 12 SEP 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
TUESDAY, 12 SEPTEMBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  Beaufighter, Bristol
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-3, Douglas Havoc
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  F-6, North American Mustang
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): In the Kurile Islands, 6 bombers fly a
negative shipping sweep over Shimushu Island; 3 more attack Suribachi
Airfield and offshore shipping targets; 1 B-24 flies negative reconnaissance.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 4 B-25s pound buildings in the
Katha area; 25 B-24s haul fuel to Kunming, China; 8 P-47s sweep a river from
Bhamo to Katha, 3 strafe official buildings at Bhamo, and 16 hit targets of
opportunity on the Burma Road from Lungling, China to Wanling to Namhkam and
blast gun positions N of Loiwing Airfield.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 10 B-25s and 6 P-40s pound
Lungling; 14 B-25s hit the town area and destroy 2 bridges and damage another
at Sungpai; 22 others bomb Kaochishih, Tunghsiangchiao, and the area E of
Kiyang; 27 P-51s and P-40s on armed reconnaissance over Hunan and other areas
of inland SE China attack road and river traffic and general targets of
opportunity around Lingling, Hengyang, Kiyang, Yangtien, and Patpo; and 15
P-40s hit coastal and river shipping in S China and in Indochina on the S
China Sea, in Chikhom Bay, and along the Red River; the flight of the 21st
Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, Fourteenth Air Force, operating from
Kweilin with F-5s since Jul 43, returns to base at Kunming; and the 74th
Fighter Squadron, 23d Fighter Group, moves from Kweilin and Liuchow to
Luliang with P-40s and P-51s.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  AIRBORNE OPERATIONS (IX Troop Carrier Command): 400+ C-47s complete supply
and evacuation missions.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Two missions are flown.
  Mission 626: For the second day, 888 bombers and 662 fighters are
dispatched on a major assault on the German oil industry; they are
intercepted by 400-450 Luftwaffe fighters; AAF claims 81-16-20 aircraft in
the air; 35 bombers and 12 fighters are lost:
  1. 299 B-17s are dispatched to hit oil refineries at Brux (79) and Ruhland
(59); targets of opportunity are Lauta (48), Plauen (30), Etterwinden (12),
Karlsbad (11), Kitzingen (11) and others (21); PFF methods are used for all
targets; they claim 14-9-7 aircraft; 19 B-17s are lost, 4 damaged beyond
repair and 94 damaged; 6 airmen are KIA, 11 WIA and 171 MIA. Escort is
provided by 238 P-47s and P-51s; they claim 29-2-4 aircraft in the air and
21-0-16 on the ground; 10 P-51s are lost (pilots MIA) and 2 damaged beyond
repair.
  2. 348 B-17s are dispatched to hit Magdeburg/Rothensee (144), Magdeburg/
Friedrichstadt (73) and Bohlen (35); targets of opportunity are Fulda (46),
Molbis (11) and other (8); they bomb visually; they claim 13-5-5 aircraft; 12
B-17s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 161 damaged; 1 airman is KIA, 9
WIA and 109 MIA. Escort is provided by 236 P-47s and P-51s; they claim 25-0-4
aircraft in the air and 5-0-15 on the ground; 2 P-51s are lost (pilots MIA).
  3. 241 B-24s are dispatched to hit Hemmingstedt (66), Kiel (58) and Misburg
(34); targets of opportunity are Laharte (38), marshalling yard at Northeim
(12), Hannover (11), Hemmingstedt (3) and other (3); PFF was used for
bombing; 4 B-24s are lost and 49 damaged; 3 airmen are KIA, 1 WIA and 37 MIA.
Escort is provided by 105 P-38s, P-47s and P-51s without loss.
  Mission 627: 7 of 7 B-17s drop leaflet in France, the Netherlands and
Germany during the night.
  36 B-24s and C-47s are dispatched on CARPETBAGGER missions during the
night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In Germany, B-26s and A-20s hit
Westwall fortifications, Sankt Wendel station, where an armored division and
important technicians are to entrain, and fortifications around Nancy,
France; fighters continue ground support in the French/German border area. In
France, HQ 84th Fighter Wing moves from Aillieres to St Quentin; HQ 10th
Photographic Group (Reconnaissance) and the 12th Tactical Reconnaissance
Squadron and the 31st, 34th and 155th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadrons
move from Chateaudun to St-Dizier/Robinson with A-20s, F-3s F-6s and F-5s;
the 389th Fighter Squadron, 366th Fighter Group, moves from Dreux to Laon/
Couvron with P-47s; the 393d Fighter Squadron, 367th Fighter Group moves from
Peray to Clastres with P-38s; and the 401st Fighter Squadron, 370th Fighter
Group, moves from Lonray to Roye/Amy with P-38s; the 405th Fighter Squadron,
371st Fighter Group moves from Beuzeville to Perthes with P-47s; the 428th,
429th and 430th Fighter Squadrons, 474th Fighter Squadron, move from St
Marceau to Peronne with P-38s. In Belgium, the 153d Liaison Squadron, IX
Tactical Air Command (attached to First Army) moves from Vuel to Ham with
L-5s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Germany, nearly 330 B-17s
and B-24s supported by P-38s and P-51s bomb Lechfeld Airfield, Munich/Allach
engine works, and Wasserburg jet aircraft factory. 50+ B-24s fly supply mission to S France.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): Brigadier General Benjamin W
Chidlaw assumes command of the XII Fighter Command.
  In Italy, B-26s blast defended positions in the C battle sector of the
Gothic Line; B-25s pound Po River railroad bridges and attack guns and
strongpoints in the battle zone as the enemy falls back to prepared Gothic
Line defenses and the rapid Allied advance halts; fighter-bombers strike at
guns, troop concentrations, strongpoints, and flak positions in the Genoa and
Milan areas; and HQ 57th Fighter Group and the 64th Fighter Squadron move
from Alto, Corsica to Ombrone Airfield with P-47s. In France, French-based
fighter-bombers cut tracks in the Belfort, Basel, and Freiburg areas; and the
417th Night Fighter Squadron, 63d Fighter Wing, arrives at La Valon from
Borgo, Corsica with Beaufighters; and the 523d and 524th Fighter Squadrons,
27th Fighter Group, move from Salon to Loyettes with P-47s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): P-47s from Saipan Island hit AA positions on
Pagan Island with a rocket and bombing attack. A lone B-24 on armed
reconnaissance bombs the building area on Marcus Island. B-25s from the
Gilbert Islands bomb Nauru Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: B-24s pound 3
airfields in the Menado area on Celebes Island. B-24s and B-25s bomb Kaoe and
Galela Airfields on Halmahera Island, and radar facilities on Morotai Island.
B-24s hit Lautem on Timor Island. P-38s dive-bomb Namlea runways on Buru
Island while P-47s hit Boela on Ceram Island. In New Guinea, A-20s, B-25s,
and fighter-bombers hit airfields, AA guns, and other targets at Babo,
Mongosah, Manokwari, Sagan, Moemi, and Samate; and the 39th Fighter Squadron,
35th Fighter Group, move from Noemfoor Island to Owi, Schouten Islands with
P-47s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

12/0034Z SEP

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 11 Sep 1994 20:54:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Japanese sailors

We have all heard about Japanese soldiers and marines participating in
banzai charges and committing suicide rather than surrendereing.  Same goes
for the kamazais.  But what about the Japanaese sailor?  If his ship was
hit and going down was he expected to "go down with the ship?"  Or did he
have a life preserver, lifeboats, rafts, etc. and was expected to try and
save himself to fight another day?

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 11 Sep 1994 21:15:15 EST
From:    "CARL WERNKE (TCWERNC@VCCSCENT)" <TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET>
Subject: WEAP: torpedoes

 To: Multiple recipients of list WWII-L(WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU)
 In-Reply-To: Thomas Nephew  at Sun,11 Sep 1994 01:08:39 EDT


 Thomas,

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Comparative Table: Torpedoes
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                 Size           Speed     Range      Powder charge
               (Torpedo tubes)  (Knots)   (Yards)     (Pounds)

Japan           24-inch           49       24,000       225
                                  36       43,600       225
U.S.            21-inch           48        4,360       135
                                  32        8,720       135

  G.B.           21-inch          46        3,270       144
                                  30       10,900       144


           GENERAL INFORMATION ON JAPANESE AIRCRAFT TORPEDOES

 Japanese aircraft torpedoes were not designed to meet requirements of specific
 airplanes but instead, the aircraft were modified to suit the torpedo.

 Eight tail fins were tried on some of the Type 91 torpedoes, but experiments
 showed that recovery from the initial dive was too slow. The eight-fin
 torpedo exhibited steadier water travel characteristics than the four-fin
 torpedo, but it took 800 yards to reach a steady depth level. The four-fin
 torpedo took only 380 yards to assume its proper depth level. As a result of
 the experiments, eight fins were abandoned for aircraft torpedoes.

 The Japanese considered the small anti-roll flippers on each side of the
 torpedo as one of the most important feature. The use of these roll
 stabilizers enabled them to carry a full charge of explosive in the warhead,
 and they also were responsible for eliminating the hook when the torpedo
 entered the water.

 The term TYPE is used to designate a particular design of torpedo and
 corresponds to the American and British term "MARK". The type number refers
 to the year in which the design was started. Thus, Type 91 refers to the
 Japanese year 2591 or 1931 A.D.

 The term MODEL is sometimes used in connection with aircraft torpedoes, and
 refer only to the method of propulsion.
       Model 1   -Ordinary type of aircraft torpedo
       Models 2-3- Jet-propelled torpedoes
       Models 4-8- Bomb-torpedoes with no propulsion

 Type 91, Modif. 1 = Total weight, 1728 lbs. ---Speed 42 knots

  Ship and KAITEN Torpedoes--- General: Japanese ship torpedoes can be divided
  into three classes, the first being 100% oxygen, the second air, and the
  third electricity.

  Oxygen Torpedoes:

                   Type 93, Model 1, Modification 1 (destroyers)

 Speed and Range   Knots               Meters               Yards
                    49                 20,000               22,000
                    40                 32,000               35,000
                    36                 40,000               44,000

                    Explosive charge ........490 kg (1078 lbs)

  During the First Phase of Battle of the Java Sea, 27 February 1942, the
  Japanese began using their favorite weapons---the "Long Lance", their
  24-inch torpedoes, which because they were oxygen-propelled, made almost no
  wake. The HARUGO (CA) launched eight torpedoes at 1622 at 12 1/2 miles, one
  torpedo hit the Dutch destroyer KORTENAER, which blew up and sank
  immediately at 1640.

  The NAKAJIMA B5N1 Navy Type Carrier Attack Bomber,Model 1,of the Yokosuka
  Kokutai bomb load was : 800 kg (1,764 lb)of bombs or one 800 kg (1,764 lb)
  torpedo. 144 aircraft of this type hit Pearl Harbor on 7 December 1941.

  Thomas, I hope the above information will be of some help. This info was
  obtained from: JAPANESE TORPEDOES AND TUBES, ARTICLE 2, AIRCRAFT TORPEDOES,
  "Intelligence Targets Japan" (DNI) Of 4 Sept 1945, Fascicle O-1, Target
  O-01, March 1946, U.S. Technical Mission To Japan. Also, some material was
  obtained from A BATTLE HISTORY OF THE IMPERIAL JAPANESE NAVY (1941-1945),
  p.78, author, Paul S. Dull.-------Smooth Sailing !

  Carl Wernke
  TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 11 Sep 1994 20:59:07 -0500
From:    Drew Halevy <dhalevy@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Japanese sailors

Drew Halevy
Department of History
University of Arkansas
DHALEVY@COMP.UARK.EDU

But what about the Japanaese sailor?  If his ship was
> hit and going down was he expected to "go down with the ship?"  Or did he
> have a life preserver, lifeboats, rafts, etc. and was expected to try and
> save himself to fight another day?
>

My understanding is that many Japanese sailors who ships were sunk would
refused to be saved when an American ship came onto the scene. They would
choose to rather drown. (I can't remember where I read that, I will have
to look)-Drew

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 11 Sep 1994 21:02:59 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Japanese sailors -- Fanatical too?

Jack,

1. The American flight crew the Japanese pulled from the
  water at Midway were all -- to my knowledge -- murdered.

2. The Japanese who defended Manila's Old City to the death,
  taking as many innocent Filipinos with them as they could,
  were rear-echelon Japanese *Navy* personnel.  (The Imperial
  Army was retreating to the hills.)

Supposedly, Yamamoto liked Americans, but he certainly didn't
  look after them when he was alive.

It's not a pretty picture.

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 10 Sep 1994 to 11 Sep 1994
*************************************************

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Status: O

There are 62 messages totalling 2053 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Buzz Bombs (6)
  2. FREE FRENCH FORCES
  3. Seaplane Spitfire not all that bad
  4. INF: USN Chronology 09-12-94
  5. Preserving Ships
  6. Japanese sailors (2)
  7. 50TH: ENTRY INTO GERMANY (2)
  8. SOURCE: Jane's Fighting...WW2
  9. Buzz bombs
 10. Name of operation (2)
 11. Preserved Naval Vessels
 12. Rommel (3)
 13. 11 Sept 1944 incident
 14. 50TH:  Operation Market Garden (2)
 15. INF: 50 Years Ago - 13-SEP-1944
 16. Mr. Coatney's comments on Eisenhower (3)
 17. WEAP Re: Post Washington Treaty U.S. BBs
 18. Alabama and Drum
 19. WEAP: USS Bon Homme Richard (2)
 20. *Other* Holocausts, Mr. Weber (2)
 21. WEAP: Essex-class carriers (2)
 22. Re[2]: Preserved World War II ships book
 23. BUZZ BOMBS (2)
 24. Another Hornet (CV-12) note
 25. "Holocaust" to be defined narrowly or inclusively?
 26. SHOOTING DOWN BUZZ BOMBS
 27. ROMMEL and/or "The Grief"
 28. Female Nazis
 29. "Holocaust" (2)
 30. THANKS (2)
 31. Hist: Use of term "Holocaust" (3)
 32. HIST: Female Nazis (2)
 33. Preserving (parts of) Ships
 34. WEAP: V-1 Movie
 35. Mr. Coatney's co... (2)
 36. [INF] USAAF 13 SEP 44
 37. [INF] USAAF 13 Sep 44
 38. Hist: Use of term "Holocaust":  Poles *not* "primary victims"?
 39. Point of information on the Warsaw Ghetto for David Rising

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 11 Sep 1994 23:54:54 -0500
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Buzz Bombs

In message World War II Discussion List writes:
> Today my father-in-law was telling me about his "buzz bomb" experiences in
> London during the war. Several questions arose such as what did they sound
> like, what kind of engines did they have, their explosive power, etc. I
> would appreciate any information regarding the above questions. Thanks.

Making use of the media options might be the best answers.  There was a
very good movie made many years ago about the development of the buzz bomb.
It drives me nuts, because EVERY time I try to think of the name, I completely
forget it (just like now!)

I know someone will fill in this blank very shortly.

Basically, the buzz bomb (V-1) had a very unique (and recognizable) sound.
The movie does a good job with it and has a lot of footage (of the USN's
Loon, mostly, but they are almost identical clones).

BTW: The CAF museum in Midland, TX has a Loon engine on display.

In any case, I believe the warhead was in the "area" of 500 pounds of
explosives.  For a sustained attack against a city, it serves no real
tactical purpose, but it was a superb terror weapon, since you never
knew where it was going to fall.  Totally indiscriminate like the V-2.

The thing about the V-1, though, was as long as you _could_ hear it, you
were OK.  But once it went silent, then you were possibly in trouble.

That's what made the V-2 so much "worse."  Besides a larger payload (about
twice as much?) you never heard it coming because the engine cut off was at
such a high altitude and distance.

Funny thing about the sound... Even having heard it only in the movies and
newsreels, the sound is so distinct I can't forget it... But it's so distinct,
I can't even come with a broad description of the sound...



--
Robert J. Granvin
Southern Minnesota Wing Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 11 Sep 1994 23:06:18 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Buzz Bombs

The other name we used for them was "doodle-bugs".
The V1 flying bomb had a small pulse-jet engine mounted  above the tail
section of the (unmanned) aircraft.  This motor had an uncertain,
disjointed sound, very distinctive from any other, so that one
always know when a buzz-bomb was on the way. ("Doodle-bug" by the way,
was a New Zealand word, describing a flying beetle that seemed to
stumble erratically as it flew.)
Most terrible of all was when the V1's engine *stopped*.  The sudden
silence had a chilling, terrifying effect to anyone on the ground. For
when the motor cut out, the flying-bomb immediately fell from the sky,
falling quickly, nose-down, to explode with a deafening explosion when
it hit the ground.
The "buzz-bomb" was quite random - just launched by German troops across
the Channel, aimed in the general direction of the Greater London area.
It's direction was held on course by a sort of gyroscope device, and its
point of impact was governed only by the motor spping, killing and
maiming whatever English civilians happened to be unlucky enough by chance
to be where it hit.
The V1 flying bomb killed 5,500 people, injured 18,000, and destroyed
23,000 houses.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 11 Sep 1994 23:34:06 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: FREE FRENCH FORCES

Well put, as usual, Ben...
        There was a good deal of exasperation (to put it mildly) among
the British when their troops were sent into IndoChina at the end of WW2.
'Seemed pretty unfair to put veterans in harms way after the war was
supposed ot be over.
The French were slow off the mark in getting their own troops there.
Meanwhile, the local Viets started killing French and divers other old
enemies.
So, lucky Tommy was in he middle again.
BTW: When the French did arrive, they were said to have acted so despicably
that the British general publicly criricized "French atrocities" and insisted
on pulling out the British troops.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 25 Aug 1994 14:43:50 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVS1.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: Seaplane Spitfire not all that bad

On Wed, 24 Aug 1994, Tom Shirhall wrote:

> Actually, the Spitfire began life as a seaplane, for some series of famous
> air races. My source of information is a 1930's movie starring Leslie Howard.

It is true that Reginald Mitchell built up experience when designing the
fast floatplane racers for the Schneider Trophy: The S.5, S.6 and S.6B.
These were structurally very different aircraft, with thin, wire-braced
wings. The engine of the S.6B, the Rolls-Royce 'R', provided Rolls-Royce
with design experience to create the 'Merlin'.  The R engine itself would
be developed into the Griffon, used by later marks of Spitfires.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 01:26:05 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 09-12-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
09/12 Tue. Aircraft from fast carrier task force (Vice Adm. M.
           A. Mitscher) commence 3-day attack on Japanese
           airfields and shipping in the Visayas, P. I.  On 14
           September one carrier group (Vice Adm. J. S. McCain)
           shifts operations to targets on Mindanao, P. I.
           Romania signs armistice with United States, Great
           Britain and Russia.
            United States naval vessels sunk:
             High-speed transport NOA (APD-24), by collision,
              Palau Islands area, Caroline Islands,
              07 d. 01'N., 134 d. 30'E.
             Motor minesweeper YMS-409, foundered, off Atlantic
              Coast.
            United States vessel damaged:
             Destroyer FULLAM (DD-474), by collision, Palau
              Islands area, Caroline Islands,
              07 01'N., 134 d. 30'E.
            Japanese naval vessels sunk:
             Destroyer SHIKINAMI, by submarine GROWLER (SS-215),
              South China Sea,
              18 d. 16'N., 114 d. 40'E.
             Frigate HIRATO, by submarine GROWLER (SS-215),
              South China Sea,
              17 d. 54'N., 114 d. 49'E.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 09:27:40 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <smb@NETMGRS.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Preserving Ships

>
>Dear Steve Baldwin,
>
>
>Isn't HMS Warrior of 1860 preserved somewhere?
>
>Henry Sirotin

Hi Henry!
yeps- I'd forgotten about Warrior...it is a stone's throw from
HMS Victory in Portsmouth...

smb

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 06:52:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Buzz Bombs

 >From: Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>

 >The "buzz-bomb" was quite random - just launched by German troops across
 >the Channel, aimed in the general direction of the Greater London area.
 >It's direction was held on course by a sort of gyroscope device, and its
 >point of impact was governed only by the motor spping, killing and
 >maiming whatever English civilians happened to be unlucky enough by chance
 >to be where it hit.
 >The V1 flying bomb killed 5,500 people, injured 18,000, and destroyed
 >23,000 houses.

I remember reading somewhere that the Brits had "turned" a German
spy whose mission it was to report where V-1s were landing so that
the Germans could "aim" the missiles better, i.e., incease or
decrease the fuel load.  His messages reported that the buzz bombs
were hitting populated areas when in reality they were landing out
in the rural areas.

Can't remember where I read this but has anyone else heard this
story?

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 07:26:34 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Buzz Bombs

Hello, Bob!

I can supply that info and will, if someone else hasn't done so. It
will be later on this week, as I have two other projects ahead of
this one.

More later.

Terry

> Today my father-in-law was telling me about his "buzz bomb" experiences in
> London during the war. Several questions arose such as what did they sound
> like, what kind of engines did they have, their explosive power, etc. I
> would appreciate any information regarding the above questions. Thanks.
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 08:48:57 EST
From:    coon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU
Subject: Re: Japanese sailors

Jack McKillop asks about Japanese sailor going-down-with-the-ship.  In
previous posts I have mentioned the book _A Glorious Way To Die_ which
is about the sinking of the Yamato.  The author(s?) claim that Japanese
ships did not carry life preservers, rafts, etc., but later while discussing
the sinking of the Yahagi mention crew members boarding liferafts.  It
may be that the Yamato did not carry rafts and smaller craft did.
        This book also has some discussion concerning Japanese captains
who were expected to go down with the ship.  At least some crew members
were expected to survive to carry the portrait of the emperor to safety.
Interesting book with a rare view into life on a Japanese capital ship.
*****************************************************
(Roger) Brad Coon             The right to defend
COON@IPFWCVAX.BITNET          one's self and one's
COON@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU    family against harm and
                              injustice is the most
                              basic civil right.

Proud to be a member of America's largest civil rights
group, the National Rifle Association.
******************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 10:09:13 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Buzz Bombs

Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA> said,...

>The V1 flying bomb killed 5,500 people, injured 18,000, and destroyed
>23,000 houses.

Does anyone have the approx number of weapons launched to put the casualties
into perspetive? 'Sounds like they numbered in the thousands... -Al

Alan G. Wild
Admin. Computing
University of Rhode Island
Kingston, R.I.  02881

I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 15:26:05 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <John.Ausland@GMAIL.GAR.NO>
Subject: 50TH: ENTRY INTO GERMANY

          WE WERE UNCERTAIN WHAT TO EXPECT WHEN WE ENTERED GERMANY

          One day which is clear in my mind is September 13, when
          we crossed into Germany. We hiked across an open field,
          through woods, and into a small village. We were not sure
          what to expect. As we approached the border, the civilians
          seemed hostile. To our pleasant surprise, there were white
          sheets hanging from many of the windows.

          As we neared the village, I recalled that I had never fired
          the gun which I got from the Belgian. Nervous anyway, I
          decided to be sure it would work. This was a silly thing to
          do, since I was not the only person who was nervous. The
          loud explosion brought the battalion commander running to
          where I was, demanding to know what had happened. When
          I told him, he simply said, "Don't do that again."

          Although our entry into Germany went easily, the hard part
          was yet to come. We had heard about the defense line Hitler
          had ordered built along the border. We were, however,
          uncertain what to expect when we reached what we called
          the Siegfried Line. (The Germans called it the West Wall.)

          Although we were not aware of it at the time, on September
          3 Hitler had recalled von Rundstedt, whom he had relieved
          at the beginning of July. Even though the German Army
          had lost hundreds of thousands of men since June 6, he
          and his commanders managed to pull together improvised
          units for a defense of the border area. Since we were very
          low on artillery ammunition, General Gerow decided to delay
          an attack on the Siegfried Line for two days. In addition, we
          were all very tired, and our equipment was suffering from
          lack of maintenance. Nevertheless, optimism prevailed, and
          we all expected soon to reach the Rhine, little suspecting
          that it would be over six months before the 4th Division
          would cross that river.

          The 4th Division attack on the Siegfried Line began on
          September 14 in the Schnee Eifel, a hilly wooded area with
          poor roads east of St. Vith, Belgium. Against varied
          resistance from disorganized German forces, the Division
          captured six miles of the West Wall. The price was about
          800 casualties.

          During this operation, an incident which made a profound
          impression concerned my new radio operator. We were using
          a German pillbox as a command post. Since the Germans
          were shelling us, the operator set up his radio just outside
          an embrasure, while he sat inside. A group of infantrymen
          were gathered outside near the radio. An artillery shell hit
          the concrete side of the pillbox near where they were
          standing and killed them all. When I heard the explosion I
          ran to where my radio operator was. He had not been
          wounded but was in shock. I got him to lie down and rest
          for awhile, assuring him he was would be all right. He made
          it clear, however, that he was unwilling to stay at the front
          any longer. After I explained the circumstances to Capt.
          Edward C. (Ed) Green, the cooperative commander of the
          29th's Headquarters Battery, he assigned another radio
          operator to me.

          From where we had an artillery observation post, I could see
          the Germans just across an open field. In a clump of woods,
          they were well dug in. If we fired a salvo, therefore, they
          simply got into their shelters when they heard the rounds
          coming. I tried firing random single shells, in the hope of
          unnerving them, but tired of this before they did.

          Again contrary to my view that my place was at battalion
          headquarters, I accompanied Joe Gude's C Company on an
          operation. As we marched across a clearing in the trees,
          artillery shells landed several hundred yards behind us.
          Assuming a German artillery observer had us under
          observation, I instinctively jumped into a nearby ditch.
          Seeing this, several infantrymen did the same. Without
          looking at me, Gude shouted, "All right, you can't hide from
          them, so keep on marching." Embarrassed, I got out of the
          ditch and rejoined Gude on the road. After advancing a
          distance without encountering small arms or further artillery
          fire, the company returned to the positions it had been
          holding.

          Not long after that, during an intense battle for control of a
          hill, Gude was wounded. I watched the medics trying to load
          him into an ambulance. He refused to leave until he had
          received his liquor ration.  END TEXT  Copyright: John C. Ausland
          Excerpt from Chapter 10 of LETTERS HOME: A WAR MEMOIR

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 09:27:56 -0700
From:    John Holtz <holtz@EAGLE.SANGAMON.EDU>
Subject: SOURCE: Jane's Fighting...WW2

>  (snip!)
>  An excellent source is my favorite, _JANE'S FIGHTING
>  SHIPS OF WORLD WAR II_,and excerpts of the various JANE'S. This source was
>  always available when I was on board ship (which was almost continuous).
>  I sure could use one to make my personal library complete, of course, at a
>  nominal price. Do you have any suggestions ?
>
>  Carl Wernke
>  TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET
>
Carl (and other interested parties:

The Scholar's Bookshelf regularly publishes a catalog of Military
History titles.  They may be reached at 110 Melrich Rd., Cranbury, NJ
08512.

Their Fall '94 catalog list the Jane's title above for $29.95.

jwh

--
John W. Holtz, Asst. Professor       INTERNET: holtz@eagle.sangamon.edu
Sangamon State University Library       PHONE: (217) 786-6633
Springfield, IL  62794-9243               FAX: (217) 786-6208

 < I am not responsible for words spoken or actions taken before 11 am >

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 10:32:20 -0400
From:    Warren Thompson <THOMPSON@ACAD.LVC.EDU>
Subject: Buzz bombs

To Al et al.: Per J.R. Smith & Antony L. Kay, GERMAN AIRCRAFT OF THE SECOND
WORLD WAR, p.671, 2419 hits recorded on London + 2448 on Antwerp. Estimated 4
times this number had to have been launched. Other locales less heavily
bombed. BTW the last recorded hits on London and Antwerp were in March 1945.

-- Warren Thompson

thompson@acad.lvc.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 10:54:23 -0400
From:    Douglass Green <aa285@SEORF.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Name of operation

Would someone kindly advise me of the name of the operation let by Otto
Skorzney to free El Duce in 1944

Thank you

Doug Green

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 10:17:33 -0500
From:    "Sidney W. Kitchel" <kitchel@DPSI.COM>
Subject: Re: Preserved Naval Vessels

Steven Pudlo writes:
>When the guide doesn't even know the expected life expency of a wooden warship
>of that era (12 years, I beleive, from my uneducated readings), how can he
>expect to impress visitors with the longevity of the Const.?

        People interested in the preservation of U.S.S. Constitution
(IX-21) might like to hear one little tidbit. I'm writing this
message about 25 miles from Constitution's new masts. There is a grove
of virgin oak at the Naval Weapons Center, Crane (Crane, Indiana) that
is being looked after carefully. Sometime about the turn of the
century several of the oaks will be harvested and shipped east to be
made into the IX-21's new masts.

                                                        --Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel           kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 11:44:58 EDT
From:    Jerry Kasiowniak <JKASIOWN@WAYNEST1.BITNET>
Subject: Rommel

>.Date:         Wed, 7 Sep 1994 11:41:16 -0500
>From:         "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
>Jerry,
>
>     Are you implying that Rommel was an amoral careerist
>lacking the "inner direction" moral consciousness that has
>been instilled in Bundeswehr officers since the war (at
>least for a time)?
>
>Lou Coatney

 Hi Lou,

I love that phrase "amoral careerist". I wish I would have thought of
it myself. I'm going to start using it at work. (Giving you full credit,
of course.)

As you know, Rommel and many of the other senior generals during the
'39-'45 war were trained in the Kaiser's army, continued into the
Weimar army and were obsorbed in the Nazi army. Three distinct armies
with three distinct purposes for existence. Rommel had six years of the
Nazi experience to make a moral judgment of the nazi cause.


Rommel's reputation in the West gives me the impression that he is
a "teflon general". The onus of working for the nazi's doesn't seem to
stick to him. I just think it should.

Jerry Kasiowniak
Wayne State University

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 11:43:40 EDT
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <sparks@ALPHA.CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: 11 Sept 1944 incident

This account is excerpted from "The Bluenosed Bastards of Bodney",
the group history of the USAAF 8th AF's 352nd FG, edited by
Robert H. "Punchy" Powell, published 1990 by Taylor Publishing
of Dallas, Texas.  The story is "The Liberation of Lille", as told
by Lt. Cyril B. Doleac, a pilot with the 487th FS of the group.

The group had been assigned to escort duty that day, but the bombers
they were to escort aborted the mission over Germany due to bad
weather.  The group diverted to a ground attack sweep.  While
attacking a train, Lt. Donahue's P-51D was hit by debris from the
resulting explosion, and began streaming coolant.  Since he
wouldn't be able to make it back, he climbed to 5000 feet and
bailed out.  Lt. Doleac orbited the area until Donahue was safely
on the ground, then began to climb back up to join the group,
which had returned to 35,000 feet to get above the weather.

Doleac soon realized that he would run short of fuel if he continued
to climb, and radioed his squadron leader, Lt. Col. J.C. Meyers.
Meyers responded with a vector toward British lines, and Doleac
leveled off at 25,000 feet and headed off alone.  With his fuel
level running dangerously low, he began looking for a place to
land.  Seeing two cities ahead, he headed towards them, and moments
later his engine quit from lack of fuel.  Between the two cities,
he could make out a heavily bombed grass airfield.  Doleac decided
that if anyone started shooting at him, he would either bail out
or belly land and destroy the aircraft.  Since no shots were fired,
he elected to make a wheels down, dead-stick landing on a small
undamaged section of the grass strip.

He was amazed to see a large group of women and children running
toward him.  They were carrying flowers, and were coming to greet
him.  They began autographing his Mustang, while he tried
unsuccessfully to explain that he needed gasoline.  Finally someone
who could speak English came along, who told him "Congratulations,
the town is yours, you liberated it!"  Since his plane was named
"Maid of Orleans" (Cyril was from New Orleans), the crowd was
especially pleased, although couldn't understand why he didn't
speak French.

Sparked into action by his presence, the local underground began
rounding up the German soldiers billeted there.  Luckily, within a
few hours, American tanks had made their way to the town.  Doleac
was able to obtain 150 gallons of aviation gasoline in five gallon
cans, and flew back to Bodney, England, the next day.



Partially related side note:  Doleac's earlier P-51D carried the
name "Ex-Lax... Shht'n'Git", IMHO one of the all time greatest names
for a fighter plane.  The manufacturers of Ex-Lax displayed a photo
of the aircraft at its corporate headquarters during the war years.

Dennis E. Sparks
sparks@alpha.caer.uky.edu
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 12:47:52 -0400
From:    Emery Ford <eford@DELPHI.UMD.EDU>
Subject: 50TH:  Operation Market Garden

Howdy everyone,

Can anybody post a daily synopsis or brief history on Operation
Market-Garden, or know where I can find a good source to post it myself
to all of you?

What was Monty thinking, anyway?  To limit the XXX Corps to such a
narrow path with so many river obstacles seems to exceed boldness.

Also, does anyone know the casualties incurred by the airborne forces
dropped on Arnhem and Nijmegan as a proportion to their initial
strengths?  i.e. How many captured, killed or wounded?

Thanks again,

Emery Ford

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 09:37:14 -0700
From:    John Davis <jbd@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 13-SEP-1944

On 13-SEP-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The German garrison in Brest refuses to surrender. The US 3rd
Army continues their offensive along the line of the Moselle from Thionville
to Epinal.

Eastern Front - In response to pressure put on by the Allies, the Russians at
last begin dropping supplies to the Polish Home Army (AK) fighting in Warsaw.
The 2nd Belorussian Front, captures Lomza, west of Bialystok, a German
strongpoint for the defence of East Prussia and Warsaw.

Italian Front - The 4th Armoured Division (Canadian I Corps) and the 1st
Division (British V Corps) takes the Coriano and Gemmano hill positions. The
Germans are forced to withdraw north, leaving the road to Rimini open.

Foreign Affairs
---------------
Rumanian Peace Terms Announced - Moscow has announced the terms of the Allied
armistice with Rumania. Reparations of $300,000,000 is to be paid to Russia
over a six-year period. Rumania will retain civil administration in non-combat
areas. The terms also provide that Rumania maintain 12 divisions to serve
under the Russian command and keep them at full strength.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  jbd@netcom.com
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 12:17:25 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Buzz Bombs

Hello, Alan!

I just posted this info and other related info to Jim Brady. I will
repost this to the list tomorrow.

The Germans had 25000  V-1s ready for use in 1944. I will get back to
the list on this tomorrow. I have the exact number launched and the
number shot down or destroyed.

More later.

Terry
> Does anyone have the approx number of weapons launched to put the casualties
> into perspetive? 'Sounds like they numbered in the thousands... -Al
>
> Alan G. Wild
> Admin. Computing
> University of Rhode Island
> Kingston, R.I.  02881
>
> I am the NRA.
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 12:31:43 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mr. Coatney's comments on Eisenhower

Hello, Ben!

I haven't responded to Lou's remarks yet, but I will offer you my two
cents' worth on this.

> Perhaps someone could help me here.  I am always confused by
the
> implication that Mr. Coatney has made above that (particularly) Soviet
> retribution vis-a-vis the Germans after WWII was somehow a response to
> the Holocaust.

    There is no evidence to support that thesis.

Andreas Hillgruber made this point devastatingly clear in
> his 1986 book "Zweierlei Untergang: Die Zerschlagung des Deutschen
> Reiches und das Ende des Europaeischen Judentums," (Dual Decline: The
> Desimation of the German Reich and the End of European Jewry. -the
> work has not to my knowledge been translated - sorry).  In his book
> Hillgruber takes for granted that current historiography maintains that
> the harsh treatment of Germans in the East was a reaction to the
> Holocaust and then trys to say that such treatment was, in fact,
> completely unjustified because the Allies were not yet aware of the full
> implications of the Nazi death camps.

    This is correct and corresponds to all that I have read on this
issue.

 >
I am confused because I have always felt that the harsh Soviet
> treatment of the Germans was the result of two entirely different causes.
> The first is the brutality that accompanies virtually every war.  The
> second is a soviet reaction to the brutality of the Nazis during the
> occupation of Soviet territory.

    This is also very true. It doesn't need to be expounded on here,
as this is known by all who are on this list.


 I am confused, therefore, by Mr.
> Coatney's assertion that the Soviets should have exacted their retribution
> against German males as the ones responsible for the Holocaust.

    There is nothing, that I am aware of that would support such a
thesis. The record of Soviet treatment of Jews, although not on the
scale of the Nazis, was lamentable.

> (Furthermore, I think that some reference to Claudia Koonz's "Mothers in
> the Fatherland" is in order to establish whether German women were
> innocent of all complicity in Nazi crimes.)

>         If someone could please explain to me the logic which says that
> we should see the Holocaust and the Soviet retribution against the
> Germans as somehow connected I would appreciate it.  Frankly it escapes me.

    There is neither logic nor careful reasoning that would support
such an idea. The attitude of the Russians invading Eastern Germany
was one borne of pure retribution. Nothing I have ever read on this
subject, and I have read much on it, has even so much as hinted at
connecting their retribution in Eastern Germany as being motivated by
knowledge of the Holocaust.

    Thanks.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 12:39:07 -0500
From:    "Sidney W. Kitchel" <kitchel@OCTOPUS.DPSI.COM>
Subject: WEAP Re: Post Washington Treaty U.S. BBs

John Holtz writes to the list:
>I believe there were 3 classes of "fast" battleships:
>
>North Carolina (w/South Dakota and Washington)
>Indiana (w/Massachusetts and Alabama)
>Iowa (w/Missouri and Wisconsin)

        Here's what the 1944-45 Jane's Fighting Ships has to say:

1. Montana Class -- 5 ships (Construction cancelled July 21, 1943)

        Montana, Ohio, Maine, New Hampshire, Lousiana

        65,000 tons (full load) Length: 903 feet Beam: 120 feet

        (... were to have been enlarged Iowa class with 12 16
          inch guns)

2. Iowa Class -- 5 ships

        Iowa            (Aug. 27, 1942)
        New Jersey      (Dec. 7, 1942)
        Missouri        (Jan. 29, 1943)
        Wisconsin       (Dec. 7, 1943)
        Kentucky        (laid down 6/12/44...)
        (Illinois  -- cancelled Aug. 11, 1945 when 22% complete)

        52,000 tons (full load)  Complement: 2700  Speed: 33 kts

        Length: 807 feet  Beam: 108 feet  Draft: 36 feet

        9 16 inch guns

3. South Dakota Class -- 4 ships

        South Dakota    (June 7, 1941)
        Massachusettes  (Sept. 23, 1941)
        Indiana         (Nov. 21, 1941)
        Alabama         (Feb. 16, 1942)

        42000 tons (full load)  Complement: 2500  Speed: 30 kts.

        Length: 680 feet (o.a.) Beam: 108 feet  Draft: 27 feet

        9  16 inch guns

4. Washington Class -- 2 ships

        Washington      (June 1, 1940)
        North Carolina  (June 13, 1940)

        41000 tons (full load)  Complement: 2500  Speed: 27 kts

        Length: 729 feet (o.a.)  Beam: 108 feet  Draft: 27 feet

        9  16 inch guns

                                                        --Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel           kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 13:35:26 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: 50TH: ENTRY INTO GERMANY

John wrote,...

>      <stuff deleted>... Gude shouted, "All right, you can't hide from
>          them, so keep on marching." <more deleted>
>
>          Not long after that, during an intense battle for control of a
>          hill, Gude was wounded. I watched the medics trying to load
>          him into an ambulance. He refused to leave until he had
>          received his liquor ration.

John, 'can't wait for your book to arrive. There was a Cpt. who trained a
bunch of we officer candidates at Bragg. He was crazy with the artillery
simulators. He asked us if we thought it was strange that a cpt such as
he (~50 years old) was still (a captain/in the army)? We all understood
there was a long streak in his veins,... Gude reminds me of him. -Al

Alan G. Wild
Admin. Computing
University of Rhode Island
Kingston, R.I.  02881

I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 12:37:55 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Rommel

Hello, Jerry!

Interesting post.

> Rommel's reputation in the West gives me the impression that he is
> a "teflon general". The onus of working for the nazi's doesn't seem to
> stick to him. I just think it should.

    Why do you think that it should? He may have been working for the
Nazis but his attitudes and actions reflected the highest traditions
of the military service regardless of the uniform he wore.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 12:48:55 -0600
From:    Dave Neil <S05116%FLC@VAXF.COLORADO.EDU>
Subject: Alabama and Drum

I was at Mobile, Alabama a few years ago and can confirm that the submarine
on display with the Battleship Alabama is, indeed, The Drum.  My wife and
I spent almost an entire day there, most of it on The Alabama.
A remarkable display...Keep those preservation efforts goin', boys!
Youngsters like me (age 33) need to have those important pieces of history
preserved!!!

        I would've liked to have taken in the Pensacola Air Station as
suggested in a previous posting, but time prevented it.  I did get to stop
by Patriot's Point later on - the carrier there IS billed as the Yorktown,
but I don't know if it was originally the Bon Homme Richard...interesting...


                        Dave Neil
                        Systems Analyst
                        Fort Lewis College
                        Durango, CO  81301
                        neil_d@colorado.flc.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 14:57:33 CCS
From:    Jorge Merino <jem@VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject: WEAP: USS Bon Homme Richard

John Peterson wrote:

> Hi all.  Isn't the Yorktown at Patriot's Point the former Bon Homme Richard?
> I seem to remember that it was being built when the original Yorktown was
> sunk, and they decided to rename it.  I visited it about ten years ago, so
> I don't remember too well.

I think you are right. The CV-10 was originally named Bon Homme Richard, but
after the original Yorktown (CV-5) was sunk, she was renamed Yorktown. The
name Bon Homme Richard was used later for the CV-31, another Essex-class
carrier. BTW, where is the CV-31 now? I hope she wasn't scrapped yet :-|

Jorge Merino

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 15:13:16 -0400
From:    "Benjamin B. Weber" <bweber@MOOSE.UVM.EDU>
Subject: Re: *Other* Holocausts, Mr. Weber

On Sat, 10 Sep 1994, Louis R. Coatney wrote:

> The Jewish Holocaust wasn't the only one.  The Soviets
>   had already discovered on their own territory what the
>   Nazi Germans were doing to Russians, Jews, Belorussians,
>   ..., in such camps.  Auschwitz was nothing new to its
>   Soviet liberators -- not that the NKVD didn't have similar
>   installations itself -- just more efficient.
>
> Lou Coatney
>

Your response to my question is a bit cryptic.  If you mean to imply that
all Soviets in the Nazi occupied territories were victims of the
"Holocaust" then I would take issue.  In scholarly usage the term
"Holocaust" refers to the total, or near total destruction of a
specifically targeted group.  In the context of Nazi persecution this
included Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, Germans of African descent, Jehovah's
Witnesses and in some cases the physically and mentally handicapped.  That
is not to say that there were not many other victims of Nazi aggression,
just that their experiences are not part of the "Holocaust" per se.  I
would argue that the vast majority of the twenty million Soviet casualties
fall into the category of victims of Nazi aggression.  (According to
Hilberg's rather conservative calculations the Nazis killed approx. one
million Jews in the occupied Soviet territories.  See: Hilberg, "The
Destruction of the European Jews.")  That leaves around nineteen million
non-Holocaust victims.
        Understanding that most Soviet victims were not Holocaust victims,
my question is why so many people persist in seeing Soviet retribution on
German soil as a retribution for the Holocaust?  I am aware that many try
to relativize the two by arguing that the harsh Allied occupation was some
sort of divine punishment for German crimes.  I do not, however, buy this
argument.  In fact, I find it extremely problematic.  It leads to the
conclusion that the Germans somehow atoned for the Holocaust by enduring
the occupation.
        I would also refute your claim that Auschwitz was nothing new to
the Soviet liberators.  Surely no one would argue that the Gulags and
Auschwitz were not both places of immense human suffering.  But to say
that Auschwitz was somehow related to, or an extension of the Gulags is
problematic.  They served the same function of providing a place to
incarcerate political opponents.  However, Auschwitz had the added
function of facilitating genocide.  I know of no similar intent on the
part of the Soviets.  Neither Stalin's dekulakization policies nor his
terror campaign against the Soviet citizens were genocidal.
        I would conclude, then, that the brutal Nazi occupation of Soviet
territories was not the same as the Holocaust (although the Holocaust
certainly went on under the occupation) nor was Auschwitz part of the same
process that spawned the Gulags.  To lump the two in one category is
reductionist and wholly inaccurate.

Thanks, Terry, for your comments regarding my question of how one can see
the treatment of Germans by the Allies as retribution for the Holocaust.
I would welcome other responses.

Benjamin B. Weber
Univ. of Vermont
bweber@moose.uvm.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 15:04:29 CCS
From:    Jorge Merino <jem@VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject: WEAP: Essex-class carriers

John Riegsecker wrote:

> Unfortunately, most of the ships are off the naval yard so you can't
> walk up to them, but BB62 (New Jersery) and BB63 (Missiouri) are easy to
> recognize.  I could also make out CV41 (Midway), but no Hornet.  I decided to
> go to a little naval museum in Bremerton and ask them.  When I got there the
> gentleman at the desk was explaining to a couple that the carrier
> they had seen being towed out that morning was Hornet!!

Isn't CV-41 Midway scheduled to become Training carrier, I think, after
CV-43 Coral Sea has completed her turn?

Glad to hear that Hornet is "still" alive, but sad to hear she's going
to the scrapping line :-(

> He had a list of ships in the "junk yard" there and I began writing down
> the names of WWII vintage ships.  In addition to the two BB's and Midway
> there was Bennington CV20 and Oriskany CV34.  As I wrote down Oriskany,
> he said, "No, she was taken out right behind Hornet."  So, despite a
> previous note, I think she too is under way to the wrecking ball.  Of
> course her anchor could have been taken off long ago.

I remember that the Oriskany CV-34 was completed very later than the other
Essex-class carriers (1950?), and that she had some little differences.
I don't know much about her design, but I think these differences were
almost eliminated when all the Essex-class carriers were modified with the
new angled flight deck in the mid 50s. Does anyone of you have more details
on this?

Again, sorry to hear that the Oriskany is also under way to the scrapping
pipeline. My most sincere condolences to all vintage carrier-savers....
The Oriskany played an important role during Vietnam war, together with
many other Essex-class WW-II veterans. If she only could escape..........

I would like to know where could I find plans/schematics of Essex-class
carriers (in detail). I'm planning to build a detailed scale model of
one of them (but I've nothing but some photographs and a very deteriorated
and small scale model of the USS Wasp CV-18, that I got from a friend).

Jorge Merino

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 14:43:24 -600
From:    Lowell Rick Cox <lcox@AMERIS.CENTER.IL.AMERITECH.COM>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Preserved World War II ships book

>The USS Inaugrial is gone now--she sank from her moor at St. Louis near
>the arch during the great flood of '93 and hasn;t been seen since--she
>is probably near Louisiana about now.  Sad but true.  Seriously--they
>don;t know where she went--lost in the Mississippi River somewhere.  TAS
>
>************************************************************************
>*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
>*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
>*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
>*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
>*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
>************************************************************************
>

Tim,

Was that the minesweeper that was located near the paddleboats etc.?
I visited a minesweeper of some type there by the arch back in the mid-70s
got to play with the twin 40mm etc.  I hadn't known that it was still there,
or that it had sunk during the flood.  Must have happened when I was on
flood duty with the Illinois National Guard.   Too bad, I was hoping to take
my kids there in the next year or so.   Thanks for the update.

Rick Cox     lcox@ameris.ameritech.com
Ameritech National Customer Service Center
Hoffman Estates, IL  USA

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 14:52:11 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Name of operation

Hello, Doug!

Will gladly provide that info for  you. At the moment, all my related
material on this subject is at home.

However the operation you are referring to occurred on 23 Sep 1943
not in 1944.

    The pilot of the Fiesler Storch, Hauptmann Heinrich Gerlach, died
10 Oct 1993. The man who physically freed Mussoline from his captors,
Harald Mors, lives today in Wesel, Germany, if this is of interest.

    A very interesting story.

    Will write more tomorrow.

    All the best.

    Terry

> Would someone kindly advise me of the name of the operation let by Otto
> Skorzney to free El Duce in 1944
>
> Thank you
>
> Doug Green
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 13:45:07 -0600
From:    Dave Neil <S05116%FLC@VAXF.COLORADO.EDU>
Subject: BUZZ BOMBS

I remember , (reading it, I wasn't there :) ) that a few V-1's were actually
shot down by allied aircraft.  Seems to me that they would've been vulnerable
to ground fire as well, although "vulnerable" is a relative term here.  The
V-2's, on the other hand, had to be destroyed on the ground if they
were to be destroyed at all, as their near vertical flight paths rendered
them inpervious to interception.  Can anyone back me up on this?



                        Dave Neil
                        Systems Analyst
                        Fort Lewis College
                        Durango, CO 81301
                        neil_d@colorado.flc.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 15:57:11 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <sep@TVSS2.COMMNET.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: USS Bon Homme Richard

Bonne Homme Richard eh? John Paul Jones' ship? Didn't know they named
anything after her. the Serapis was the one he captured.

BTW what he REALLY said was "I'll sink, but I'm damned if I'll strike".
This was in response to the British suggestion that he strike his colors
before his ship sank out from under him.

Source:Museum of National Heritage, Lexington, MA USA.
                                                        ;-)Steve

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - sep@trctc.commnet.edu |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 16:21:50 EDT
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <sparks@ALPHA.CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: Another Hornet (CV-12) note

First of all, thanks very much to John Riegsecker for making the
effort to check on Hornet.  I'm sorry to hear of her imminent
demise.

Sort of off topic:

Another notable event in which Hornet played a role...

She was the prime recovery ship for the Apollo 11 lunar mission
in July 1969.  Remember the shiny aluminum isolation trailer
containing the three returning astronauts?  Remember the photo
with the astronauts in the trailer looking through the window,
being greeted by President Richard Nixon?  The sign above the
window read "Hornet + 3".

Further off topic:  I just finished reading "Moonshot" by
astronauts Deke Slayton and Alan Shepard.  I recommend it.

Back to topic:  Deke Slayton flew B-25s in Europe during WWII.


Dennis E. Sparks
sparks@alpha.caer.uky.edu
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 14:52:32 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: "Holocaust" to be defined narrowly or inclusively?

An interesting definition of terms debate, Benjamin, but you
  are wrong.

*Some* schlars *do* use "holocaust" to describe the mass
  extermination/enslavement of other peoples, beyond just
  gypsies, Jews, homosexuals, (and the rest of your list).
  For example, THE FORGOTTEN HOLOCAUST, by Richard Lukas,
  describing that degree of victimization of Poles generally
  by the Nazis.

The Communists *were* genocidal in their methods, as you
  should very well know/acknowledge.  The Ukrainian Famine
  was a deliberate starvation program to break Ukrainian
  ethnic pride at the peasant level, not just prosperous
  landholders.  The round-up and shipment of over a
  million Polish men, women, and children to Siberia --
  to starve, freeze and/or sicken to death -- was genocidal
  in intent and effect.  Molotov's public gloating about
  putting an end to "that bastard of the Versailles Treaty"
  -- Poland -- is well-recorded.
    Again, I refer you to STALIN:  BREAKER OF NATIONS, by
  Robert Conquest (whose contentions about Stalinism have
  been verified/vindicated by the Russians themselves,
  now).

Again, also, I refer you to the NKVD/SS conference at
  Zakopane in early 1940, to share concentration camp
  experience/technology.

This attempt by some "scholars"(?) to deny the use of the
  term "holocaust" to other peoples similarly victimized
  by the Nazis *and* the Soviets has seemed to me to be
  ethnocentric/racist and/or ideological in motivation.
  ("*My* people suffered more than *they* did."  or  "The
  Communists weren't as evil as the Nazis."  which they
  certainly *were*.)

This attempt seems dishonest and hypocritical, even if
  it isn't intentional.  Instead of quibbling about terms
  and (implictly) each other's suffering, the victims might
  help themselves, each other, and the world by making sure
  the suffering of *everyone* is fully understood.

The "academic" coverup of the mass exterminations in the
  Communist takeovers of China and then (North) Vietnam
  certainly *were* "scholarly" -- rather like David Irving's
  apparent attempt to obfuscate Hitler's responsibility for
  the HolocaustS by quibbling over document proof -- and
  it epitomized the moral hypocrisy and bankruptcy of the
  West's intellectual institutions.

I saw this mindset at work, in my research on the West's
  "handling" of the Katyn Massacre, and I still boil
  readily whenever I (think I) encounter it.

In terms of bodycount, the Ukrainian Famine alone is
  estimated to have killed anywhere up to 14 million
  people.  If *that* ethno-killing doesn't qualify as
  a "Holocaust," ... !  Anyway, ....

Lou Coatney, Historian at Large
mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 15:29:43 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: 50TH:  Operation Market Garden

Hello, Emery

    I believe I have the info you are looking for. Will check.

    Will be in touch very shortly.

    All the best.

    Terry

> Can anybody post a daily synopsis or brief history on Operation
> Market-Garden, or know where I can find a good source to post it myself
> to all of you?
>
> What was Monty thinking, anyway?  To limit the XXX Corps to such a
> narrow path with so many river obstacles seems to exceed boldness.
>
> Also, does anyone know the casualties incurred by the airborne forces
> dropped on Arnhem and Nijmegan as a proportion to their initial
> strengths?  i.e. How many captured, killed or wounded?
>
> Thanks again,
>
> Emery Ford
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 16:49:02 -0500
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <TWATTS@EXODUS.VALPO.EDU>
Subject: Re: BUZZ BOMBS

Wasn't there at least one incident of a Tempest fighter over England
downing a Buzz Bomb by flying next to it and tipping it over with its
wingtip?  No sources available, just (questionable) memory.  Definitely
a dangerous thing to try in any case.
Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 15:42:22 CDT
From:    Perry Otis <Otis=Perry%LSB%AUL@AUL.AU.AF.MIL>
Subject: SHOOTING DOWN BUZZ BOMBS

I have read accounts of Allied pilots shooting down V-1s, so you remember
correctly.  I have also read accounts of another method of downing V-1s,
used by pilots who were out of ammunition.  The pilot would match speed with
the rocket and, using the tip of his wing, flip the rocket over.  This
effectively scrambled its gyroscope causing it to plunge into the ground.
Obviously, this was done over an open area.  It would sort of defeat the
purpose to do this over a city. :-{)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 18:27:44 -0500
From:    LONG2469@SPLAVA.CC.PLATTSBURGH.EDU
Subject: Re: ROMMEL and/or "The Grief"

Date sent:  12-SEP-1994 18:22:49

Ok Friends:

        Now that I let that particular snake loose, perhaps we could take a
little look at the other sections of my message, hmmm??  I want, nay, need
all the information that can be given to me on the "Grief" (Griffin in
English) or the "Adler" (Eagle in English) these were Rommel's command
vehicle, from what I know of them they were designed to be front line
vehicles, and to protect the commander during a battle, they also included
his radio gear.  What became of them, or has anyone seen reproductions of
them.  Further I am trying to find a lead on the adress for a WWII
recreation group, near Plattsburgh NY or Montreal Canada.  I would like to
start working on the gear of a soldier from the Afrika Korps.  As I said
before if anyone can help me with suggestions for appropriate gear I would
be obliged.  Thanks for your time in this matter.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Jamison J. Long (AKA Neuromancer, Flag Admiral, Jamie)  [{Founder T.E.R.R.A}]
LONG2469@SPLAVA.CC.PLATTSBURGH.EDU or LONG2469@SNYPLAVA.bitnet

Alia iacta est.  (The Die is Cast.)  -Iulius Caesar, upon crossing the Rubicon.
   {Also the Motto of T.E.R.R.A. [The Embry-Riddle Roleplaying Assoc.]}
 =============================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 17:30:54 -0500
From:    Drew Halevy <dhalevy@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Female Nazis

> > (Furthermore, I think that some reference to Claudia Koonz's "Mothers in
> > the Fatherland" is in order to establish whether German women were
> > innocent of all complicity in Nazi crimes.)

I've seem to have lost a thread here. What is the conclusion of this
book? That only men were responsible for Nazi war crimes? What about all
the female guards in the concentration camps? What about the Bitch of Belsen?
-drew

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 18:38:11 EDT
From:    Patrick D Marsden <marsden@TEXAS.CPI.COM>
Subject: Re: "Holocaust"

My two cents on this subject...


Didn't the Soviets also march huge numbers of captured German
enlisted personnel into the Russian interior never to be seen again.
According to Erich Hartmann's biography, "The Blond Knight of Germany",
enlisted men were sent to the bogs to harvest peat and build swamp
roads.  They were worked until they died and were replaced by others.
He made it very clear that it was a one way trip for those men.

On a slightly related note, In the book "U-977" the author, whose
name I can't seem to remember right now, mentioned how his crew was
aware of the "plan" by the allies to de-industrialize Germany and
force it back to an agricultural society only.  This was partially
responsible for their decision to head for South America instead of
surrender.  Aparently the German sailors were expecting harsh
retaliation from their enemies and the dismemberment of Greater Germany.
What their reasoning was is another question.

Anyway...

Patrick


marsden@euler.cpi.com
Aerospace Engineer & NRA member

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 18:34:28 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: THANKS

Thanks, Alan. The cigar arrived today and I look forward to lighting up after
dinner. That was some jacket the owner of The Bag Piper wears in that picture.
The shamrock on his lapel gives him away. Cheers to the new lad. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 19:23:53 -0400
From:    Warren Thompson <THOMPSON@ACAD.LVC.EDU>
Subject: Hist: Use of term "Holocaust"

To Lou Coatney et al: Perhaps it would be convenient to keep the term
"Holocaust" restricted to the primary intended victims ... and use
"genocide" for the other mass-murder endeavors.

I am not aware that Hitler came to power with any reference to exterminating
Poles, Romani, blacks, et al., [though he clearly thought them inferior] but
he did make reference to the use of "Giftgas" against the Jews in MEIN KAMPF.
(At the same time, this is not necessarily to claim that genocide against any
ethnic/racial group was in the cards from the very beginning, say, in 1933.)

Reactions?

-- Warren Thompson
LEBANON VALLEY COLLEGE
Annville PA 17003

thompson@acad.lvc.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 19:41:45 -0400
From:    Warren Thompson <THOMPSON@ACAD.LVC.EDU>
Subject: HIST: Female Nazis

To David Halevy et al.: Are you referring to Ilsa Koch, the "Bitch of
Buchenwald"? The last commandant of Bergen-Belsen was Josef Kramer, "known as
the "Beast of Belsen."+

-- Warren Thompson

thompson@acad.lvc.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 16:52:21 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: Preserving (parts of) Ships

Following is from the 31 August 1994 issue of "On the Surface", an
every-other-week news type publication of the Naval Surface
Warfare Center, Dahlgren Division, Dahlgren, Virginia.

NSWC/DD houses one of the very few if not only over-water naval gun
test ranges.  They can test EVERYTHING, right up to the 16 inchers.
(They're kind of quiet these days, but I could tell you stories...)

Begin Quote

Great Guns!

(Two pictures: A 16-inch barrel on a rail transporter and a 14-inch
barrel on a many-wheeled transporter.)

Dahlgren public works personnel move a 16-inch naval gun barrel from
its resting place (left photo) to Dahlgren's yardcraft area for
placement aboard a Navy LCU.  At (right photo) the base's main range
area, a 64-wheel transporter is used to move a 14-inch gun barrel to
yardcraft where it went aboard an Army barge.  Both guns are destined
for museums - the 16-inch goes to the Battleship South Dakota Memorial
in Sioux Falls, S.D.; the 14-inch gun to the Hugh Moore Memorial Park
and Museum, Easton, Pa., as part of a Bethlehem Steel (gun's
manufacturer) exhibit.  Former shipmates on the USS South Dakota
raised money to transport the gun barrel from Dahlgren to Sioux Falls.
The museum also got volunteer help from CSX and Burlington Northern
railroads to transport the heavy barrel.  School children around the
Bethlehem, Pa., area helped raise money to move the 14-inch gun.
Bethlehem Steel officials came to Dahlgren to witness the event.  The
company is the only manufacturer left in the United States that can
produce heavy steel forgings (such the gun barrel).

End Quote.  Typos are faithfully reproduced! :-)

Of other interest, just sitting around over there on the gun range, is
ONE very large 18 inch gun barrel, which had posted on it a sign
reading "The Only 18 Inch Gun in the US Navy".  No details of how,
when or why it came to be there!!!!!

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA 22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 18:56:34 EDT
From:    Richard Kaplan <kaplanr@CLP2.CLPGH.ORG>
Subject: WEAP: V-1 Movie

The movie centered around the V-1s is "Operation Crossbow" starring George
Peppard as our espionage hero, Sophia Loren as the deep cover interest and a
really good British actor as the smarmy double agent.  The sound effects of the
buzz bombs were impressive, though I can't vouch for their accuracy.

                                        Richard Kaplan

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 13 Sep 1994 02:33:33 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@NAT1.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: Rommel

On Mon, 12 Sep 1994, Jerry Kasiowniak wrote:

> As you know, Rommel and many of the other senior generals during the
> '39-'45 war were trained in the Kaiser's army, continued into the
> Weimar army and were obsorbed in the Nazi army. Three distinct armies
> with three distinct purposes for existence. Rommel had six years of the
> Nazi experience to make a moral judgment of the nazi cause.
>
> Rommel's reputation in the West gives me the impression that he is
> a "teflon general". The onus of working for the nazi's doesn't seem to
> stick to him. I just think it should.

I think that you are drawing the lines too sharp here. Rommel did not have
the advantage of 20/20 hindsight. Even a general is just a part of his
society. He can be accused of serving under a ruthless dictator for many
years, and not opposing him until it was too late --- but so does the
vast majority of people under a dictatorship.

The relations between the German Army and the Nazi system were very
complex. Cooperation was a part of it, but so was hate and despisal.  We
have a clear and simple judgement of the Nazi government ready at hand,
but they did not. And they had the burden of an enormous responsability.
Rommel was no exception.

Rommel's reported reaction when he was informed of the plot to kill Hitler
is significant. He agreed with a military coup, but refused to support an
attempt to kill Hitler, saying that one should give him the opportunity to
resign first. But when admiral Ruge (I hope I have the name right) asked
whether he tought that Hitler would resign, Rommel answered that he was
certain that he wouldn't...

Finally, whether Rommel was a 'great captain' or not is truly unrelated
with the things he fought for. You can regret it, or think that it is a
good thing, but military talents are often unrelated with moral or
political greatness...

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 20:36:46 -0400
From:    David Rising <drising@ACS.BU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mr. Coatney's comments on Eisenhower

Ben, as an indication of how Stalin/Soviet Union felt about the Jews and
the holocaust, you can look to their action/inaction in Warsaw.
Basically, they waited until the Germans had liquidated the Jewish ghetto
before proceeding with their attack. In doing so, they basically let the
Germans do their dirty work for them.
The Soviets were also responsible for the liberation of all of the German
death camps. In their press releases at the time, they mentioned the
horrible conditions etc., and that there were significant numbers of
people killed, but they did not ever mention Jews. That was only to come
later.
In short, due to their wartime indifference to the plight of the Jews
which they, more than any other Allied power were in a position to
influence, I would have to conclude that the Soviet leaders could not
possibly have been provoked to retribution because of the holocaust. They
may, however, have used it as a convenient excuse when confronted by the
other Allied powers.
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 13 Sep 1994 02:57:17 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@NAT1.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: "Holocaust"

On Mon, 12 Sep 1994, Patrick D Marsden wrote:

> On a slightly related note, In the book "U-977" the author, whose
> name I can't seem to remember right now, mentioned how his crew was
> aware of the "plan" by the allies to de-industrialize Germany and
> force it back to an agricultural society only.

Such plan did exist. It was named after a US under-secretary of something,
named Henry Morgenthau. It has later been claimed that it was actually the
work of a communist agent, White. The plan *was* accepted by the allied
leadership at first, but later abandoned.

An addition not-entirely-related-to-the-subject: Today, here in Belgium,
a book was published about a Russian resistance group that was active in
Belgium, to be more exact in Limburg. The first I hear of it...

These Russians were POWs that had been transported here by the Germans to
work in the coal mines (closed down a few years ago). Life in the mines
was not pleasant, and a number managed to escape. Partly because they well
aware that Stalin did not like prisoners, and they wanted to reestablish
their repuation as good Soviet citizens, they formed a resistance group.
After the war, those who returned to the USSR were sent to the gulags
nevertheless... (At least one stayed and was interviewed on television.
After fifty years in Limburg, he still has a horrible accent, but he made
it clear enough that he did not regret to have stayed.)

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 21:04:56 EDT
From:    Thomas Nephew <ThomasN528@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Mr. Coatney's co...

I think Mr. Rising may be referring to the second Warsaw uprising (of late
July,1944), not the earlier one that was limited to the ghetto?  The Ghetto
uprising was largely unassisted by Poles, let alone Russians; the second one
was by the Polish Home Army in Warsaw, and was left unassisted by the
Russians, who pulled up short to let the non-Communist uprising get wiped
out.  They even refused to give Anglo/American air forces landing rights in
Soviet-held territory after proposed air supply to the Home Army.

I would agree, though, that Russian policy and soldiers were not motivated by
a desire to "get even" about the Holocaust, they were "getting even" about
the destruction of much of the Soviet Union.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 21:00:28 -0400
From:    David Rising <drising@ACS.BU.EDU>
Subject: Re: *Other* Holocausts, Mr. Weber

On Mon, 12 Sep 1994, Benjamin B. Weber wrote:
> "In scholarly usage the term
> "Holocaust" refers to the total, or near total destruction of a
> specifically targeted group.  In the context of Nazi persecution this
> included Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, Germans of African descent, Jehovah's
> Witnesses and in some cases the physically and mentally handicapped.

Actually, "holocaust" simply means a sacrifice on a large scale. Usually,
however, when we refer to _the_ Holocaust, we are referring to the
destruction of the European Jews. There were other groups also
persecuted, as you note, but no where close to the number of Jews (of
which 6 million is the generally accepted number). Most of the physically
and mentally handicapped were killed during the Nazi euthenaisa program,
before the destruction of the Jews began.
-deletions-

> that Auschwitz was somehow related to, or an extension of the Gulags is
> problematic.  They served the same function of providing a place to
> incarcerate political opponents.  However, Auschwitz had the added
> function of facilitating genocide.  I know of no similar intent on the
> part of the Soviets.  Neither Stalin's dekulakization policies nor his
> terror campaign against the Soviet citizens were genocidal.

To address the first point, Auschwitz was not really a place for
political opponents. They were largely sent to the Concentration Camps
within Germany (e.g. Dachau), and could often serve their time and be
released. Auschwitz (I assume we're talking about Birkenau), was an
extermination camp. The average life expectancy of those who were chosen
to stay and work in the factories/fields/etc was three months. Most
people, however, never even saw the barracks.
I would also have to take exception with the second point. Stalin's
policies _were_ genocidal. He may not have tried to systematically
exterminate a race like Hitler (although he may have, we'll have to wait
until the archives open up), but he was probably responsible for even
more deaths due to his policies. He even once said that he'd deport the
entire Ukraine if he had enough trains. He starved them all to death
instead. In fact, the Nazi-Soviet pact brought two very similar (although
ideologically different) men together. If they weren't both so
megalomaniacal, things may have looked _very_ different in the history
books.

David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 21:05:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 13 SEP 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
WEDNESDAY, 13 SEPTEMBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-6, North American Mustang
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 8 P-47s hit targets at Mawhun and
some of the fighter-bombers afterwards strafe targets of opportunity on the
Irrawaddy River from Katha to Shwegu; 8 others sweep the river between Bhamo
and Katha; 12 more hit targets along a road in the Kutkai area; large-scale
transport operations in the CBI continue.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): B-24s claim 3 cargo vessels sunk off the
Pescadores Islands near Formosa.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  AIRBORNE OPERATIONS (IX Troop Carrier Command): In France, C-47s fly
numerous supply and evacuation missions; and the 95th, 97th and 98th Troop
Carrier Squadrons, 440th Troop Carrier Group, move from Exeter, England to
Reims with C-47s.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 3 missions are flown.
  Mission 628: 1,015 bombers and 477 fighters attack oil and industrial
targets in S Germany by visual means; 15 bombers and 8 fighters are lost:
  1. 376 B-17s are dispatched to oil refineries at Stuttgart/Sindelfingen
(109) and Ludwigshafen (74); secondary targets hit are Darmstadt (95) and
Wiesbaden (8); targets of opportunity hit are Mainz (22), a marshalling yard
near Wiesbaden (12) and others (3); 4 B-17s are lost, 2 damaged beyond repair
and 134 damaged; 1 airman is KIA, 2 WIA and 37 MIA. Escort is provided by 73
of 74 P-47s, they claim 6-0-2 aircraft on the ground.
  2. 342 B-24s are dispatched to hit Schwabish Hall Airfield (65), a
munitions dump at Ulm (65) and Weissenhorn (45); a target of opportunity hit
is Reichelsheim (1); 4 B-24s are lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 127
damaged; 3 airman are WIA and 39 MIA. Escort is provided by 99 P-38s and
P-51s; they claim 14-0-5 aircraft on the ground; 2 P-51s are lost.
  3. 297 B-17s are dispatched to hit oil refineries at Merseburg (141) and
Lutzkendorf (77); targets of opportunity hit are Giessen (17), Eisenach (12),
Altenburg (7), Gera (7) and other (19); they claim 1-0-0 aircraft; 7 B-17s
are lost, 3 damaged beyond repair and 145 damaged; 4 airmen are KIA, 8 WIA
and 67 MIA. Escort is provided by 233 P-47s and P-51s; they claim 33-0-4
aircraft in the air; 6 P-51s are lost.
  Mission 629: 11 B-24s are dispatched on an Azon mission to the oil refinery
at Hemminstedt (6); 5 hit the secondary target, ammunition dumps at Kropp.
Escort is provided by 15 of 15 P-51s without loss.
  Mission 631: 8 of 8 B-17s drop leaflets on the Netherlands, Belgium and
Germany.
  73 of 74 B-17s, escorted by 63 P-51s, continuing the UK-USSR-Italy-UK
shuttle-bombing mission, take off from USSR bases, bomb steel and armament
works at Diosgyor, Hungary and proceed to Fifteenth AF bases in Italy.
  40 of 48 P-51s fly a strafing mission S of Munich hitting an aircraft
dispersal area, airfield and marshalling yard; they claim 5-0-0 aircraft on
the ground; 2 P-51s are lost.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, HQ XIX Tactical Air
Command accompanies HQ US Third Army HQ to ChaIons-sur-Marne; B-26s fly a
leaflet mission to coastal N France and Belgium; fighters support ground
forces in the Brest and Nancy-Metz areas (air-ground coordination being
especially effective between XIX Tactical Air Command and French 2d Armored
Division in defeating the enemy move on Vittel), and in Germany, fly armed
reconnaissance over the Cologne, Aachen, Koblenz, Linz/Rhine, and Wahn areas;
the XIX Tactical Air Command inaugurates a rail cutting campaign; HQ 97th
Combat Bombardment Wing (Medium) moves from Little Walden, England to
Voisenon; HQ 404th Fighter Group and the 508th and 509th Fighter Squadrons
move from Bretigny to Juvincourt with P-47s; the 162d Tactical Reconnaissance
Squadron, 363d Tactical Reconnaissance Group, moves from Azeville to
Montrevil with F-6s; and the 392d Fighter Squadron, 367th Fighter Group,
moves from Pera to Clastres with P-38s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 350+ fighter-escorted B-17s and
B-24s bomb targets in Czechoslovakia, Germany, Italy, and Poland; B-17s hit
Blechhamer N oil refinery; B-24s hit the oil refinery at Odertal, Germany
and, in Poland, the Auschwitz oil and rubber works and the Cracow-Auschwitz
area, and bomb the marshalling yard at Vrutky, Czechoslovakia.  In Italy,
100+ B-24s attack the Avisio viaduct, and Mezzocorona and Ora railroad
bridges.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s destroy a bridge
at Peschiera del Garda, cutting the Milan-Verona line; B-25s and B-26s bomb
guns and defensive positions N of Florence; fighter-bombers attack railroads,
rolling stock, and bridges in N Italy, although a heavy overcast hampers
operations in the NW.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): Saipan Island-based P-47s hit buildings on
Pagan Island with rockets and machinegun fire. B-24s on armed reconnaissance,
snooper, and training missions bomb Iwo Jima, Marcus, and Pagan Islands.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: B-24s and B-25s hit
4 airfields and bomb villages on Morotai Island. In New Guinea, B-25s hit
Langgoer Airfield while A-20s and fighter-bombers hit 2 airfields on Efman
Island; A-20s, B-25s, and fighter-bombers hit Babo AA positions and airfields
at Manokwari and Ransiki; HQ Thirteenth AF moves from Los Negros Island to
Hollandia.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

13/0108Z SEP

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 21:10:44 -0500
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <TWATTS@EXODUS.VALPO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [INF] USAAF 13 Sep 44

What is an Azon mission?  I'm afraid I came in on the middle of the movie
and am not familiar with it.
Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 22:13:27 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: THANKS

Ben Frank commented,...
>
>Thanks, Alan. The cigar arrived today and I look forward to lighting up after
>dinner. That was some jacket the owner of The Bag Piper wears in that picture.
>The shamrock on his lapel gives him away. Cheers to the new lad. Ben Frank

I'm glad it arrived intact. I have enjoyed the chance to celebrate my son's
birth with a few online. Semper fi. -Al

Alan G. Wild
Admin. Computing
University of Rhode Island
Kingston, R.I.  02881

I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 22:32:51 -0400
From:    David Rising <drising@ACS.BU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hist: Use of term "Holocaust"

On Mon, 12 Sep 1994, Warren Thompson wrote:

> I am not aware that Hitler came to power with any reference to exterminating
> Poles, Romani, blacks, et al., [though he clearly thought them inferior] but
> he did make reference to the use of "Giftgas" against the Jews in MEIN KAMPF.
> (At the same time, this is not necessarily to claim that genocide against any
> ethnic/racial group was in the cards from the very beginning, say, in 1933.)
>
> Reactions?

Warren, this is a huge area you're opening up (i.e. did Hitler intend to
exterminate the Jews from as early as 1933 or earlier, or was it a
function of the war). Try Lucy Dawidowicz _The War Against the Jews
1933-1945_ for the former opinion, and Karl Schleunes _The Twisted Road
to Auschwitz: Nazi Policy Toward German Jews 1933-1939_ for the latter.
Christopher Browning has also written several books to support the latter
thesis (which I am also inclined to believe).  There are _many_ others,
but you should get a good perspective (just enough to thoroughly
confuse you :-)) from these.
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 21:55:24 CDT
From:    Henry Sirotin <hhs@EVEREST.HUNTER.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Japanese sailors

The Yamato carried rafts- I believe I have on-deck pictures of her with them.
The Japanese would have saved their sailors to fight again; why the assumption
that only the enemy could pick them up? Numerous men were taken off the
burning carriers at Midway by small boats, as were the Emperor's pictures
on each vessel. As for pilots, is it true that all aircrew were not
equipped with parachutes? I seem to recall seeing men with chutes climbing
into Kates in the actual or (Japanese 1942) reenactment footage of Pearl
Harbor. And what of bomber crews?

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 22:04:07 CDT
From:    Henry Sirotin <hhs@EVEREST.HUNTER.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mr. Coatney's comments on Eisenhower

Dear David,

I think you may be confusing two events. The Warsaw Ghetto rising
was in March 1943, at a time when no Russian forces were in a position
to help it. The timing of this rising was dictated by the Germans,
who made it clear they were about to liquidate the ghetto. In June?
1944 the Polish Home Army revolted, attempting to establish a Polish
liberation of Warsaw before the rapidly approaching Red Army could
claim the honor. I think the RA was only fifty or so miles from the
city as the Germans crushed the uprising in a month long battle.
This has generally been interpreted in the west as a deliberate
reticence by Stalin, to allow "his" Polish government to take over,
while the Germans eliminated his opposition. I am sure this certainly
entered Stalin's thinking, but if you look at the pattern of operations
and logistics in the Red Army during the last half of the war in the
east, there may have been sound military reasons as well.

Otherwise, your comments re the Soviets and the Jewish issue are totally
correct. I believe I made the point earlier on this list that they
apparently kept back all liberated Jewish-American PoWs from camps
in eastern Germany, as well as those with Slavic last names.

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 23:06:55 -0400
From:    David Rising <drising@ACS.BU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mr. Coatney's co...

On Mon, 12 Sep 1994, Thomas Nephew wrote:

> I think Mr. Rising may be referring to the second Warsaw uprising (of late
> July,1944), not the earlier one that was limited to the ghetto?  The Ghetto
> uprising was largely unassisted by Poles, let alone Russians; the second one
> was by the Polish Home Army in Warsaw, and was left unassisted by the
> Russians, who pulled up short to let the non-Communist uprising get wiped
> out.  They even refused to give Anglo/American air forces landing rights in
> Soviet-held territory after proposed air supply to the Home Army.

You're right Thomas, I got to typing too quickly for my brain to catch
up. You said it correctly above. Cheers,
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 20:22:14 -0700
From:    Gerry Walker <GWALKER@CRC.SD68.NANAIMO.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: HIST: Female Nazis

So, why does the name Irma Grise (sp.) come to mind when I think of the Bitch
of Belsen?

Cheers,

Gerry

gwalker@crc.sd68.nanaimo.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 20:34:18 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <riegsecker@UPS.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Essex-class carriers

Jorge Merino wrote:

>Isn't CV-41 Midway scheduled to become Training carrier, I think, after
>CV-43 Coral Sea has completed her turn?

Pure speculation on my part, but from the ground looking up at Midway, I
don't see how she will ever move again on her own power, at least not soon.


John Riegsecker                                 (206) 756-3566
Dept of Math and Computer Science               riegsecker@ups.edu
University of Puget Sound

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 22:28:53 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hist: Use of term "Holocaust":  Poles *not* "primary victims"?

Warren,

     Interesting point worthy of fair consideration, but I don't
see why only those specifically targetted in the prewar MEIN KAMPF
should be considered the "primary victims" eligible to use the word
"Holocaust," since the exterminations really only got going after
the ("Wannasee"?) conference in 1942.  My understanding is that the
Nazis eventually/ultimately intended to exterminate the Poles
completely, with a few "Aryan-type" exemptions.

     The Poles lost 6 *million* people to the Nazis and nearly a
million to the Soviets -- about a quarter of a million were freed
by Stalin in 1942-43.  That is a "holocaust" by any measure.

     The Jews may have been ahead of the Poles in the extermination
line -- half the 6 million exterminated Poles were virtually all the
Polish Jews -- but substantial numbers of Poles did survive only
because the Nazis ran out of time.

Lou Coatney
mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 22:43:29 CDT
From:    Henry Sirotin <hhs@EVEREST.HUNTER.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hist: Use of term "Holocaust"

Sorry, David, this letter came in while I was writing the last one.

Have to disagree about the Holocaust being a function of the war.
>From what I understand, it rests on two points: that the extermination
camps weren't set up as such until the winter of 1941, when it became
clear to the Germans they were in for a protracted war in the East,
and that the final decisions weren't made until after Pearl Harbor
and a totally new strategic picture. Each of these elements is wrong.
The mass exterminations in Russia began within weeks of the German
invasion, by 4 specially created Einsatzgruppen that followed the
front specifically for this purpose. They had been established the
previous March and so far as I am aware were included in the planning
of Barbarossa from the beginning. All this at a time when the Germans
fully expected Barbarossa to be over by October. In fact, by that
date, these units had already killed between 1.25 and 1.5 million
Jews, if I'm not mistaken.

The Pearl Harbor question relates to the date of the Wansee Conference,
which was in either late December 1941 or early January 1942, and was
the point when the entire German government was brought in on the
"Final Solution." In fact, this conference had been scheduled for
November 1941, and was postponed for administrative reasons. In any
case, the planning in specific agencies and departments certainly               preceded it.

While on the subject, how about an attempt to define a genocide?
I'd offer three conditions:
  1. An entire class of people, defined under conditions (birth
     characteristics, physical characteristics, irreversible
     attainment, such as education) that they cannot escape by
     conversion, lack of participation, etc.
  2. A systematic attempt to hunt down and exterminate all members of
     that class, with few or no exceptions.
  3. Dedication of state apparatus and resources to this end as a
     major goal of state policy, especially if it occurs under
     conditions of national stress, such as a war for survival
     that could see the resources better used elsewhere.
I would add a fourth condition, lack of justification for singling
out the targeted group, but this is a very thorny wicket. Under                 these terms, I would have to include only Jews and Gypsies
under the Nazis, and educated Cambodians under the Khmer Rouge.
The Armenian question troubles me, but I've read a lot on Turkish
history in WWI, and have the feeling this situation is more complex
than advocates of either side are willing to admit. Sorry Lou, but
as far as I can see, everybody else had an out.

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 22:41:12 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Point of information on the Warsaw Ghetto for David Rising

David,

     The Warsaw Ghetto was exterminated by the Nazis in April
1943 -- about the time of the Nazis' revelations of the Katyn
Massacre.  (The timing did not help the Poles questions about
the Soviets, since it was the Nazis providing them the evidence.)

     It was August-October(?) 1944, during the Warsaw Uprising,
when the Soviets sat by and let the SS exterminate Polish Home
Army (*and* indigenous Communist) insurrectors who might have
otherwise complicated the postwar Soviet occupation/subjugation
of Poland.

     The Soviets always kept "the endgame" -- as we say in chess
-- in mind, realizing its outcome can be determined in much
earlier phases.

     You've got to give the Soviets credit, as brutally crude as
they may seem, they were uncannily cunning and successful in
achieving their ends.  They never lost sight of their longterm
priorities -- much like Chiang Kai Shek maneuvering during his/
our war against the Japanese for *his* endgame against the
Chicoms.

     The Soviets have/had my profound respect and, occasionally,
admiration.

Lou Coatney
mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 11 Sep 1994 to 12 Sep 1994
*************************************************

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Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 12 Sep 1994 to 13 Sep 1994
To: Recipients of WWII-L digests <WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Status: O

There are 62 messages totalling 2041 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Warsaw Ghetto vs. Uprising
  2. Henry S.'s valid point
  3. Computer Problems, here
  4. Japanese Sailor
  5. SHOOTING DOWN BUZZ BOMBS
  6. INF: USN Chronology 09-13-94
  7. BUZZ BOMBS (5)
  8. Name of operation (2)
  9. Buzz Bombs (3)
 10. MEDIA: Peleliu (2)
 11. INF: 50 Years Ago - 13-SEP-1944
 12. Morgenthau Plan (2)
 13. THANKS (2)
 14. More on V-1, V-2
 15. [INF] USAAF 13 Sep 44 (2)
 16. WEAP: V-1's (3)
 17. Japanese sailors (2)
 18. Stalin's culpability vis-a-vis the Warsaw Uprising
 19. Re[4]: Preserved World War II ships book
 20. WEAP: Air-launched V-1s
 21. Question for Ben Frank re:  Peleliu
 22. WEAP: Schwerer Gustav (3)
 23. INF: 50 Years Ago - 14-SEP-1944
 24. WEAP: Essex-class carriers (3)
 25. ROMMEL and/or "The Grief"
 26. NYC TV
 27. Point of information on the Warsaw Ghetto for David Ris
 28. HIST: Female Nazis (2)
 29. Female Nazis
 30. "Holocaust"
 31. Nishizawa's fate
 32. aircraft carrier in Great Lakes?
 33. Meaning of Holocaust and genocide
 34. *Other* Holocausts, Mr. Weber
 35. WEAP:Scwerer Gustav
 36. WEAP: Aircraft carriers in Great Lakes?
 37. [INF] USAAF 14 SEP 44
 38. AZON BOMBS
 39. Mr. Coatney's co...
 40. MEDIA: PELELIU (2)
 41. "HOLOCAUST"
 42. MORGENTHAU PLAN

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 23:11:43 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Warsaw Ghetto vs. Uprising

Thomas,

     Whereas a major effort to help the Jews in the Ghetto --
there were one or two minor ones -- would have ineffectively
sacrificed the Home Army and Warsaw in 1943, the Red Army was in
a position -- positionally and militarily -- to help the Poles
in the early fall of 1944.

     Remember that an entire German army group had been
annihilated in White Russia in June-July 1944.  Indeed, the Red
Army radio was urging the Poles in Warsaw to rise up, before they
actually did.

Lou Coatney
mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 23:20:51 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Henry S.'s valid point

Henry,

     You are right about thegenocide already beginning in Russia
in Summer 1941, and one reason for the stiffening *Russian*
resistance in the late fall and winter 1941/42 was the realization
that the USSR had been invaded by something which was *potentially*
worse (for the peoples of the Soviet Union) than Stalinism.

Thomas,

     Again, the magnitude of extermination/devastation by the Nazis
in and their longterm plans for Russia (and the other peoples of the
Soviet Union) should definitionally qualify as "holocaust."

Lou Coatney
mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 23:30:52 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <mslrc@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Computer Problems, here

Something like this happened about a year ago:

     My msgs are seizing up during typing, and I'm getting
bounced off my lists.  (Thanks, Joe, for you msg clarifying that
I hadn't been "purged."  :-)  )

     If I miss replying to a direct attack on one of my postings/
positions, please don't assume I am stonewalling/ducking you.
Please *do* repost it directly, since I may not have received it
while electronically suspended from the list.

     Thanks, everyone.

Lou Coatney
mslrc@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 13 Sep 1994 02:18:01 EST
From:    "CARL WERNKE (TCWERNC@VCCSCENT)" <TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET>
Subject: Japanese Sailor

 To: Multiple recipients of list WWII-L(WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU)
 In-Reply-To: Jack McKillop Sun, 11 Sep 1994 20:54:00 EDT


 Jack wrote:
 > What about the Japanese sailor? Was he expected to "Go down with the ship?"
 > Or did he have a life preserver, lifeboats, rafts, etc. and was he expected
 > to try and save himself to fight another day ?

 Many IJN personnel refused to be saved by U.S and allied navy ships.

 A classic example of Japanese BUSHIDO is the final sortie of YAMATO. "Do and
 die for the Emperor and Empire.

 The YAMATO was the pride of the surface Japanese Imperial Navy. No effort had
 been spared to incorporate every component to make her the mightest ship
 afloat, and her survival of the battles of Midway, the Philippine Sea, and
 Leyte Gulf encouraged a belief that she could follow up the kamikaze attacks
 on the Allied naval forces at Okinawa and wipe out the remaining surface
 vessels.

 On 6 April 1945, at 1000 the YAMATO started out to sea, the only ship
 leaving that day. Every man on board was filled with pride and ready to give
 his life for the Emperor and Japan. All personnel had been ordered to gather
 on the deck. Dressed in fighting khakis, 3000 men stood at silent attention
 as Captain Kosaka Ariga, the C.O. of YAMATO explained their mission and
 objective and expressed hope that all would do their best. Then Captain Jiro
 Nomura, the executive officer, shouted---"KAMIKAZE YAMATO, be truly a
 KAMIKAZE!" Then "KIMIGAYO", the national anthem of Japan was played, following
 by martial airs, and finally three cheers for His Imperial Majesty.

 On 6 April 1945, 1600, the last of the once grand Japanese Fleet set sail for
 Task Force 58 (TF 58) operating area, located between Okinawa and the
 southern tip of Kyushu. The YAMOTO, flying the Second Fleet flag, and on the
 bridge were VADM Seiichi Ito,the force commander, his chief of staff, RADM
 Nobuei Morishita, and the ship's C.O. YAMATO was escorted by the YAHAGI (CL),
 and eight destroyers. The Second Fleet strike was to be coordinated with that
 of kamikaze planes against TF58 in the Okinawa area. Counter attacks by
 F6Fs and TBFs from TG 58.1 and 58.3 against clumsy suicide craft, heavily
 overloaded with explosives had been overpowering. Therefore, it was necessary
 to decoy the American planes away so that the "special attack" planes could
 operate more effectively. This project called for something that would attract
 a maximum number of TF58 planes and withstand their attacks for as long as
 possible. The YAMATO was the most likely bait, and the nine escorts were
 intended to prolong her life. The YAMATO was filled to capacity with
 ammunition for every weapon she carried. Her tanks, however, were loaded with
 only enough fuel for a *one-way* passage to Okinawa !  This was not bravery,
 but suicide born of desperation. The YAMATO force was a surface kamikaze
 force to protect the air "special attack" force.

 Four aerial torpedo and bomb attacks by TF58s F6Fs and TBFs had reduced the
 YAMATO to a state of complete confusion. Communications were disrupted beyond
 any hope 0f repair and the chain of command was in utter disorder. The
 YAMATO sank approximately 300 miles north of its destination in Okinawa
 waters.

 According to the YAMATO's chief lookout, Captain Ariga had gone down with his
 ship. Japanese military services and all their personnel would willingly give
 their lives for the Emperor and Japan. No sacrifice is too great to achieve
 this end.

 Material obtained from THE JAPANESE NAVY IN WORLD WAR II, Editor and
 Translator of the Second Edition, Dr. David C. Evans, Naval Institute Press,
 1986.

 Carl Wernke
 TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 13 Sep 1994 10:21:00 +0100
From:    Fred van Wetten <F.W.M.van_Wetten@CRI.LEIDENUNIV.NL>
Subject: Re: SHOOTING DOWN BUZZ BOMBS

> I have read accounts of Allied pilots shooting down V-1s, so you remember
> correctly.  I have also read accounts of another method of downing V-1s,
> used by pilots who were out of ammunition.  The pilot would match speed with
> the rocket and, using the tip of his wing, flip the rocket over.  This
> effectively scrambled its gyroscope causing it to plunge into the ground.

This method was preferred above shooting the V-1. An exploding V-1 in
the air was defenitly dangerous for the persuing aircraft. Many Homede-
fence squadrons used this method and some pilots even became 'experts'
in downing V-1's like this. Most V-1's were intercepted above the Chan-
nel and the Northsee, an ideal place to 'drop' them on their one-way-
course.


Fred van Wetten           Netadress:CRIPFW@rulmvs.LeidenUniv.nl
CRI, instituut voor telecommunicatie en computerdienstverlening
RijksUniversiteit Leiden, PO BOX 9512, 2300 RA  LEIDEN, HOLLAND
Tel: +31 71 276933        Fax: +31 71 276967

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 13 Sep 1994 01:25:51 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 09-13-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
09/13 Wed.  United States naval vessels sunk:
             Destroyer WARRINGTON (DD-383), by hurricane, off
              Bahama Islands,
              27 d. 00'N., 73 d. 00'W.
             High-speed minesweeper PERRY (DMS-17), by mine,
              Palau Islands area, Caroline Islands,
              06 d. 53'N., 134 d. 10'E.
            Japanese naval vessel sunk:
             Submarine chaser NO. 55, by carrier-based aircraft,
              Philippine Islands area,
              10 d. 20'N., 124 d. 00'E.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 13 Sep 1994 07:24:18 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: BUZZ BOMBS

Hello, Dave!

Will try to answer your questions.

> I remember , (reading it, I wasn't there :) ) that a few V-1's were actually
> shot down by allied aircraft.

    Yes, quite a few were shot down by aircraft even some with the
British jet "Meteor".

 Seems to me that they would've been vulnerable
> to ground fire as well, although "vulnerable" is a relative term here.

    Yes, many were also destroyed by ground fire. The British moved
some heavy AA guns to the coast over which the V-1's flew and many
were destroyed there.


 The
> V-2's, on the other hand, had to be destroyed on the ground if they
> were to be destroyed at all, as their near vertical flight paths rendered
> them inpervious to interception.  Can anyone back me up on this?

    Yes. However, since the V-2 sites were mobile, it was very
difficult to locate and destroy them. The best method was to attack
the centers of production and research, namely Peenemuende.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry
 >
>
>                         Dave Neil
>                         Systems Analyst
>                         Fort Lewis College
>                         Durango, CO 81301
>                         neil_d@colorado.flc.edu
>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 13 Sep 1994 07:28:39 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Name of operation

Hello, Doug!

The name of the operation to liberate Mussolini from his Italian
"guards" was Eiche or Oak.

Hope this helps.

Terry
> Would someone kindly advise me of the name of the operation let by Otto
> Skorzney to free El Duce in 1944
>
> Thank you
>
> Doug Green
>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 13 Sep 1994 07:31:54 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: BUZZ BOMBS

Hello, Tim!

Yes, and it occurred more frequently than you might think.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 13 Sep 1994 07:29:29 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Buzz Bombs

Hello, Alan!

I will post to you some very interesting info on the V-1 later on
today.

 More later.

 Terry

> Does anyone have the approx number of weapons launched to put the casualties
> into perspetive? 'Sounds like they numbered in the thousands... -Al
>
> Alan G. Wild
> Admin. Computing
> University of Rhode Island
> Kingston, R.I.  02881
>
> I am the NRA.
>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 13 Sep 1994 07:54:45 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Buzz Bombs

Hello, again, Alan!

I am going to go ahead and send this info to you and other interested
parties at this time.

           V-1's

Launch weight: 4,858 pounds including 150 gallons of fuel and 1,870
pounds of high explosive warhead.

Warhead specs: Fuellung 52-A was 17% RDX, 53% Dinitrobenzol and 30%
Ammonium Nitrate forming a matrix of molten explosive into which a
"biscuit" mix of 21% RDX, 48% Ammonium Nitrate and 31% Calcium
Nitrate was mixed, the whole then being allowed to solidify. This
appears to have been an economy explosive. More powerful were the
Trialen-105 fillings which were 15% RDX, 70% TNT and 15% Aluminium
the addition of aluminium giving a greatly increased blast effect.
The warhead was fuzed with three different fuzes, one electrical
impact type, one mechanical "all-ways" impact type and one clockwork
delay fuze, so that, regardless of how the missle landed, detonation
was guaranteed.

Development of the V-1 began on 19 Jun 1942 at Peenemuende and
continued with little setback, the first operational flight took
place on the night of 12-13 June 1942. The first successful launch
having been at Peenemuende on 24 Dec 1942. Mass production began on 1
March 1944 with a planned increase to 8000 missles per month by
October. The combined output of all production sources has been
estimated at 25000 missles for 1944 of which 12,000 were ready for
use when operations began. During 1945, the known production figures
were: January, 2,900; February, 3,200 and March, 3,700. In all 9,251
were fired against England of which 4,261 were destroyed and 6,551
against Antwerp of which 2,455 were destroyed.

Hope this is of interest and helps.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 13 Sep 1994 08:56:56 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA: Peleliu

>From the DoD Newswire 12 September 1994


:VETERANS REMEMBER PELELIU

   Ray Davis saw his share of war -- he was a veteran of Guadalcanal
and Cape Gloucester in World War II, winner of the Medal of Honor in
the frozen hell of Korea's Chosin Reservoir, commander of a division
in Vietnam.
   But he never saw anything to compare with Peleliu.
   "I have never experienced anything near the ferocity of the
fighting on Peleliu. We were being fired at from all directions at all
times. The casualties were just horrendous," he said.
   On that chunk of volcanic rock and coral, in one of the Pacific
War's bloodiest battles, he took a sliver of a Japanese shell through
his knee and saw his battalion get shot up.
   Fifty years later, this retired four-star assistant commandant of
the Marine Corps is leading a band of veterans back to Bloody Nose
Ridge to rededicate a monument honoring fallen comrades of the 1st
Marine Division.
   The 50th anniversary commemoration of the Sept. 15, 1944, landing
lacks the fanfare of, say, the D-Day anniversary in Normandy.
   But anyone who witnessed Peleliu's horrors will never forget it,
especially since history has proved it was a place best avoided for
the bloody price paid on what was gained -- a victory that did little
to alter the war's outcome.
   The claw-shaped island, measuring just 12 square miles, is one of
the least accessible and least publicized of the Pacific battlefields.
Now reclaimed by a carpet of jungle, it is "hidden away in the
tractless deep like a guilty secret," according to author William
Manchester.
   Originally, Peleliu was targeted because it had an airstrip just
550 miles east of the Philippines, where Douglas MacArthur was
preparing his return.
   But when Japanese defenses on the Philippines were shown to be
softer than expected, Adm. William "Bull" Halsey recommended that
Peleliu be bypassed to wither on the vine.
   His senior officer, Adm. Chester Nimitz, refused to call it off,
however, because the landing force was only two days away.
   Then and now, the decision is open to debate.
   "If military leaders ... were gifted with the same accuracy of
foresight that they are with hindsight, then the assault on Peleliu
should never have been attempted," said Rear Adm. Jesse B. Oldendorf,
who commanded an armada of 27 battleships, cruisers and destroyers off
Peleliu.
   But foresight failed.
   William Rupertus, the 1st Marine Division commander, predicted
Peleliu would fall in three days, maybe two, and advised war
correspondents to go elsewhere for stories. Few reporters ever went
ashore, and at the time, Peleliu was overshadowed by Arnhem in Europe
and MacArthur's pending return.
   Things went wrong from the start. Intelligence failed to detect a
spine of coral ridges that hid 500 coral caves protecting the Japanese
garrison, and naval guns failed to knock out defenses.
   The Japanese, knowing the war was lost as the Americans
island-hopped to their homeland, radically changed tactics. Instead of
exhausting themselves on the beaches, or mounting suicide charges, the
Japanese waged a battle of attrition behind defenses in depth with
interlocking fields of fire designed to inflict maximum casualties.
   From their warren of caves, the Japanese sprung out to blast away
at the rear of Marine formations, then ducked back inside, until the
last position was knoc
