Subject: WWII-L Digest - 8 Sep 1994 to 9 Sep 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 10 Sep 1994 00:00:49 -0400

There are 55 messages totalling 1768 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. PRESERVING SHIPS (11)
  2. WWII-L Digest - 6 Sep 1994 to 7 Sep 1994
  3. USS SARATOGA (2)
  4. Preserving Ships (5)
  5. INF: 50 Years Ago - 10-SEP-1944
  6. INF: USN Chronology 09-09-94
  7. USS Saratoga
  8. Preserved Naval Vessels (7)
  9. HELP ON AIR FORCE WINGS?
 10. HUMOR: Visiting France (3)
 11. Saratoga
 12. PT Boats (2)
 13. "Point of order":  USCG cutter actually at Honolulu
 14. Preserved World War II ships book (2)
 15. WEAP: USS Enterprise (CV-6) (Was: 16 carriers....)
 16. Fate of USS ENTERPRISE, CV-6
 17. Post Washington Treaty U.S. BBs (2)
 18. WEAP: Essex-class carriers
 19. WEAP: USS Hornet (and other Essex-class carriers)
 20. General Belgrano: Ship
 21. PT Boat "Museum"
 22. MEDIA: Monty's PJs (2)
 23. General Belgrano
 24. POW/MIA Ceremony at Travis AFB.
 25. POST WASHINGTON TR
 26. [INF] USAAF 10 SEP 44
 27. Ship Museums
 28. Preserved World WarII ships book

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 21:05:54 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: PRESERVING SHIPS

> Perhaps this posting could begin a thread with all the experts
> chiming in re/location of preserved naval craft. Ben Frank

Well, I'm no expert, but this would be GREAT!  I can continue:

The submarine USS Torsk is what I would describe as fully preserved in
Baltimore's Inner Harbor.  I say this with no clue as to what exactly
qualifies as being "fully preserved".  The boat is afloat, but not
currently mobile under her own power as far as I know.  She is set up
as a tourist attraction along with a lightship, and a retired Coast
Guard Cutter (which saw action at Pearl Harbor during the raid, BTW).

I recently paid at least my THIRD visit to the Torsk, and was
delighted to spend about 30 minutes in conversation with one of the
WWII sub vets who man the boat during operating hours.  He served
aboard the USS Spot I believe, and told us of still today spending
time with his "captain" while their wives go shopping.  Though I've
read, and re-read the accounts of the Tang, Wahoo, and many others,
it's a little different hearing it from the mouth of one who was
there, and in whose eyes you can watch the memories - the pride - and
the pain - return as he tells the story one more time.

An incredible way to spend an afternoon for a guy (me) who was
originally bitten by the WWII bug in the form of such literature as
"Up Periscope", "Run Silent, Run Deep", and "Clear the Bridge".

Thanks Ben, great idea.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA 22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 18:33:28 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: PRESERVING SHIPS

Small point of order... the coast guard cutter you are referring to was
not actually in Pearl Harbor, she was in Honolulu Harbor, a few miles
down the road.

****************************************************************************
Jim Adams                       [email-masked]
USS Arizona Memorial, NPS        (808) 423-7300
1 Arizona Memorial Place
Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
****************************************************************************

On Thu, 8 Sep 1994, Keller, Theron P. wrote:

> > Perhaps this posting could begin a thread with all the experts
> > chiming in re/location of preserved naval craft. Ben Frank
>
> Well, I'm no expert, but this would be GREAT!  I can continue:
>
> The submarine USS Torsk is what I would describe as fully preserved in
> Baltimore's Inner Harbor.  I say this with no clue as to what exactly
> qualifies as being "fully preserved".  The boat is afloat, but not
> currently mobile under her own power as far as I know.  She is set up
> as a tourist attraction along with a lightship, and a retired Coast
> Guard Cutter (which saw action at Pearl Harbor during the raid, BTW).
>
> I recently paid at least my THIRD visit to the Torsk, and was
> delighted to spend about 30 minutes in conversation with one of the
> WWII sub vets who man the boat during operating hours.  He served
> aboard the USS Spot I believe, and told us of still today spending
> time with his "captain" while their wives go shopping.  Though I've
> read, and re-read the accounts of the Tang, Wahoo, and many others,
> it's a little different hearing it from the mouth of one who was
> there, and in whose eyes you can watch the memories - the pride - and
> the pain - return as he tells the story one more time.
>
> An incredible way to spend an afternoon for a guy (me) who was
> originally bitten by the WWII bug in the form of such literature as
> "Up Periscope", "Run Silent, Run Deep", and "Clear the Bridge".
>
> Thanks Ben, great idea.
>
> Theron P. Keller
> Logicon, Inc.
> Dahlgren, VA 22448 USA
> [email-masked]
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 23:40:52 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WWII-L Digest - 6 Sep 1994 to 7 Sep 1994

THanks for your note, Bill.
        As for the ungracious attitude of Parisians towards Americans nowadays. Who expects gratitude ?
:-)
PS: I notice that Parisian waiters are every bit as nasty to *French*
tourists, too!

--

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 21:03:12 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: PRESERVING SHIPS

Great idea Ben - to start a thread to get more ships protected.  In
Hawaii we are hoping to get a Pearl Harbor veteren, the tugboat HOGA
saved.  she is presently in Oakland, California where she has just
retired.  The navy is looking into how much money it would take to repair
her hull and ship to Hawaii for someone to display; but they are also
going out for bids to scrap her as an alternative.
        Next week I will be attending two conferences in Boston at the
Charlestown Navy Yard dealing the preservation of historically
significant ships.  They are being sponsored by the Naval Historical
Center, the National Park Service, National Maritime Alliance, and others.
        From there, I will travel to NYC to visit the Intrepid, as well
as other maritime museums in the area.  Hope to learn lots of good stuff
to bring back to the Arizona Memorial.

****************************************************************************
Jim Adams                       [email-masked]
USS Arizona Memorial, NPS        (808) 423-7300
1 Arizona Memorial Place
Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
****************************************************************************

On Thu, 8 Sep 1994, Ben Frank wrote:> Steve, as you may know, the Intrepid has been preserved and serves as the
> center for an outstanding naval museum. I passed her by last week and her
> flight deck was chock-a-block with all sorts of naval and Marine aircraft.
> There is a submarine, a destroyer, and other sundry types of warships there.
> Because of the traffic, and I was driving, I couldn't pick them all out. The
> drive to save the Intrepid and form a naval/military museum on or rather at a
> Hudson River dock was a mighty endeavor which has proved successful. Then there
> is the carrier at Charleston, sadly I have forgotten her name, and other major
> naval combatants preserved elsewhere in the States. Perhaps this posting could
> begin a thread with all the experts chiming in re/location of preserved naval
> craft. Ben Frank
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 21:23:33 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: USS SARATOGA

Some recent discussion about the Saratoga and wishes that she had been
preserved.  Although she was sunk in the Bikini a-bomb test, she has in a
sense been preserved and is a museum, accessible by divers.  There is a
proposal to make her into an underwater history park.  The National Park
Service conducted surveys of her (and other ships in Bikini) in 1989.  I
have copied part of the site description from the report here.
        In 1989 and 1990 dive surveys found that the virtually intact USS
Saratoga still lies upright on the bottom of Bikini Lagoon in approx. 180
feet of water.  Thje vessel rises to within 40 feet of the surface, with
the island and mast visible from the surface.  Numerous hatches and the
elevator bay stand open.  The vessel strongly retains its integrity as a
ship and is easily identifiable as Saratoga.  Althogh the carrier's
entire exterior was surveyed, emphasis was upon the starboard side (which
faced the blast) and the flight deck. ...
        Saratoga readily evidences the effects of the Baker test bomb's
detonation.  More precisely, the ship shows the aftermath of a nearby
nuclear detonation's pressure wave, the effects of being lifted 29 to 43
feet, being hit by enormous waves, and the results of tons of water
thrown up by the blast fallin on the decks....
        This is from "The Archeology of the Atomic Bomb:  A Submerged
Cultural Resources Assessment of the Sunken Fleet of Operation Crossroads
at Bikini and Kwajalein Atoll Lagoons."  By J. Delgado, D. Lenihan, & L.
Murphy.  Submerged Cultural Resources Unit, National Park Service.
Southwest Cultural Resources Center Professional Papers, #37, Santa Fe,
New Mexicao 1991.  An outstanding publication that describes the a bomb
testing and the archeological surveys done on many of the sunken
vessels.  Provides good examples of another form of museum and preserved
historical ships.
        sorry for the length, but it is easy to get carried away on this
stuff.

****************************************************************************
Jim Adams                       [email-masked]
USS Arizona Memorial, NPS        (808) 423-7300
1 Arizona Memorial Place
Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 08:47:40 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Preserving Ships

>
>Steve
>
>Well, sorry, but the Belfast is a Light Cruiser, she's a beauty though
>I got to visit her a couple of years ago.  I'm not sure, but was the
>Victory saved by accident, ie didn't it sit forgotten, except for
>its job as a barracks ship, for 50+ years, wait, I'll look it up
>over the weekend and report on Monday.  The second thing is that
>naval power is:  US, France, Russia(if the ships had fuel, crews, and
>weapons), then probably Britain, although britain would be hard pressed
>to mount an offensive operation against several navies, Japan, India,
>etc.  If China does buy the old Soviet carrier, look for them overtaking
>the UK too,  sorry.
>
>
>John E. Kollar

John! it  sounds like you're nearly in tears at having to give me this
data :-)

Don't apologise ["it's a sign of weakness" (c) John Wayne (questionable
statement too...) ].
I'm always very pleased to be corrected and to learn...

Steve B
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 04:08:38 -0700
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 10-SEP-1944

On 10-SEP-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The operation to liberate Antwerp is postponed by Eisenhower.
On the suggestion of Montgomery, he decides instead on Operation Market
Garden, a landing by airborne troops at Arnhem, Grave and Eindhoven to secure
a bridgehead over the Rhine. The operation will begin on September 17th. The
British I Corps (Canadian 1st Army) launches a general offensive against Le
Havre. The Canadian II Corps occupy Ostend. The US 4th Armoured Division (V
Corps, 1st Army) reaches Luxembourg. The French II Corps enters Dijon. At
Sombernon, the 1st Division makes contact with the French 2nd Armoured
Division.

Italian Front - The Allied offensive against the Gothic line continues. The US
5th Army crosses the river Serchio at Vecchiano, captures Villa Basilica and
crosses the Sieve. In the east, the German 10th Army keeps up their strong
resistance in the Gemmano and Coriano hills.

Palau Islands - Aircraft from a fast carrier task force under RADM Davison
carry out a heavy raid against the Japanese defences on the islands of Peleliu
and Angaur, in preparation for the invasion.

Naval Dispatches
----------------
Minesweeper SEER (AM-112) damaged by mine, Southern France area.

The Homefront
-------------
Byron Nelson Wins Again - Byron Nelson has won the Texas Victory Open golf
tournament in Dallas, with a score of 276.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 04:20:10 -0700
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: PRESERVING SHIPS

> Hudson River dock was a mighty endeavor which has proved successful. Then
> there is the carrier at Charleston, sadly I have forgotten her name, and

The carrier in Charleston at Patriot's Point is the Yorktown. They also
have about three or four other ships there including a sub (don't
remember the name), a cargo ship and I believe a destroyer.

If we're creating a list of ships, add the battleship North Carolina in
Wilmington, N.C. I grew up in Wilmington and have visited the Showboat
about 25 times. I went twice last year, for some reason I just can get
enough of her.

------------
John Davis    [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 05:11:55 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 09-09-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
09/09 Sat. Aircraft from fast carrier task force (Vice Adm. M.
           A. Mitscher) commence 2-day strike against Japanese
           shipping, facilities, and aircraft at Mindanao, P. I.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 07:49:11 -0500
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: USS Saratoga

Jim Adams:
Do you know if the Sara still had any aircraft on board when they used
her in the a-bomb test?  If there were any left in the hangar deck, would
they still be in condition to interest WWII buffs who dove down there?
Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 09:11:16 EDT
From:    Richard Kaplan <[email-masked]>
Subject: Preserved Naval Vessels

Here in Pittsburgh we have the USS Requin moored at the confluence of the Ohio,
Allegheny, and Monongahela Rivers at the Carnegie Science Center.  The Requin
is a late WWII sub, maybe Gato class?

It was towed up the Mississippi and Ohio rivers suspended between two barges.
Once moored the sub was refurbished by volunteers, and tours are provided by
volunteers, at least one of whom is a Pearl Harbor vet.

I've been to Battleship Cove (Fall River, MA) and the PT Boat Museum twice, the
Intrepid once, the Belfast, Constitution and Cassion Young.  The North
Carolina, Texas, and Olympia are still on my to do list.

                                Richard Kaplan
                                Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 09:46:00 EDT
From:    KAREN OYE 433-5774 <[email-masked]>
Subject: HELP ON AIR FORCE WINGS?

          I'm a librarian at NASA Lewis Research Center in Cleveland, Ohio
          with a desperate need of a color photograph of a specific Air
          Force wing. We need the Master Navigator, Air Force....have tried
          lots of libraries, local AF office, and several NASA and AF
          bases....only have a black and white line drawing, so far.

          I've been referred to this list by a colleague on an Interlibrary
          Loan Internet list....anyone have such a photo? Anyone in the
          Cleveland area who has the item? Our photographic division could
          make its own photo, if we cannot get a paper copy. We need super
          high quality on the photo, for scanning and reproduction.

          Many thanks, for any help!
          I'm not a listmember--replies or calls to Karen Oye 216 433-5774
          [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 10:16:10 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Preserved Naval Vessels

I've seen the CAisson Young and the Constitution. Channel 2 Boston, the
local public TV channel, which runs "Victory at Sea" had a fundraiser
during a VAS marathon a coupla weeks ago from the decks of the CY.

My tour of the CY, whilest many years ago, was too short. I fully intend
to return there as soon as I can.

Note, during my last tour of the Constitution, just before the last refit,
I was dismayed at the tour guide's lack of any real knowledge of sailing
ships outside his programmed speil. At least the CY's guide knew something.

As far as I'm concerned, the Const. should be staffed by naval personnel
with extensive training and experience in sailing ships, rather than the
plastic nice-looking very young types.

I could go on, but this is getting off topic, Steve P.'s getting on it again.

                                                                Steve
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - [email-masked] |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 10:33:59 -0400
From:    Peter Smith <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Preserved Naval Vessels

Steven Pudlo <[email-masked]> said:
...
> Note, during my last tour of the Constitution, just before the last refit,
> I was dismayed at the tour guide's lack of any real knowledge of sailing
> ships outside his programmed speil. At least the CY's guide knew something.
>
> As far as I'm concerned, the Const. should be staffed by naval personnel
> with extensive training and experience in sailing ships, rather than the
> plastic nice-looking very young types.

But other than a cruise on the USCGC EAGLE (perish the thought!), where would
US naval officers and seamen get such experience?  Since the X-USSR navy is
selling off submarines and such, do you suppose the USN might be able to buy
a tall ship?
--
Peter Smith -- Data General Corp., Westboro MA, USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 10:11:18 -0400
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: PRESERVING SHIPS

At Battleship Cove in Fall River, Massachusetts is the USS Massachusetts
(naturally!), a destroyer, a sub, a landing craft, two PT boats, a Huey,
and a T-26 (I think -- trainers don't excite me.)  I believe the
Massachusetts is an Iowa class ship (my knowledge in naval matters
is rudimentary at best!) because the an engine or two had been removed
for spare parts for the Iowa.  It's been a while since I was there and
the names of the other ships escape me.  As I recall, the tour is really
nice since there are vets who love to regale visitors with various stories
about the ships and themselves.  The Massachusetts can be seen from I-195
as one travels east crossing the Braga Bridge over the Taunton River.  It's
truly a majesty sight!
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
When we go into battle, we like to play music.
Loud music.  We find that it calms us...

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 09:49:43 -0500
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: HUMOR: Visiting France

> As for the ungracious attitude of Parisians towards Americans nowadays.
> Who expects gratitude ?

Civility would be nice....

> PS: I notice that Parisian waiters are every bit as nasty to *French*
> tourists, too!

My point exactly.  A Parisian accent is essential for good service
otherwise they think you are a French bumpkin from the vineyards and
nearly as worthless as Americans.

My wife was president of her French Club in High-school and went to
France with the club on summer break.  After two weeks of seeing the
sights of France on their way home they got caught in a strike
by the Paris Airport because of US objections to the SST landing in
the US.  The French refused to let any of the US flights leave.
So picture a bunch of "rude American" high-school kids stuck in the
Paris Airport with no way of getting home.  They decided that since
they were stuck there they would treat the French to a free concert
featuring "America the Beautiful", "The Star Spangled Banner" and
similar French favorites sung in a variety of keys.  It was described
as --- undescribable.  The good hearted French airport administrators
devised a resolution to this unfortunate situation and flights
departing Paris resumed.....  I think the trashcan and kazoo corps
may have tipped the balance.

I love a happy ending.

Cheers, Bill Huber

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 09:55:57 CDT
From:    Robert Hohlt <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Preserving Ships

Yesterday Steve Baldwin asked:

>...How close did the enthusiasts come to preserving the Enterprise, and how
>much did they anticipate it costing to maintain it? (obviously not in working
>order, but "presentable"). ...

I had to go home and get my other Enterprise book to answer that one.

In 1949 an effort was made by the San Francisco Museum of Science and Industry
to have the Enterprise assigned and berthed at the U.S. Naval Station, Treasure
Island, San Francisco, CA.  But that failed because the Navy didn't want to
pay the cost of moving Enterprise to San Francisco and maintaining her there.

Then as Lou said yesterday, President Eisenhower signed S.J. Resolution 96 on
28-Aug-57 which would have given Enterprise to the Enterprise Association
if certain conditions had been met.

The Association had to raise enough money to move, repair, renovate, berth,
prepare for display, maintain and administer the ship. This cost was
estimated at approximately 2 Million (1957) dollars.

Additionally, a site for berthing the ship had to be found.

Section 3. of S.J. Resolution 96 was the death sentence for the Enterprise.
It said:

If the conditions described in Sec 2 are not met within 6 months of the date
of enactment of this act, the Secretary of the Navy may dispose of the U.S.S.
Enterprise in accordance with law.
..

So with only 6 months to raise the necessary funds and total financial
responsibility upon the Enterprise Association (Mostly made up of ex-crew
just starting their post Navy careers),  Enterprise's last battle was over
almost before it started.

Enterprise was the first major WWII warship to be offered to the American
public as a national memorial museum. (USS Texas was saved in 1948 by the
people of Texas as a state museum).

In 1957, WWII was only 12 years in the past, the public (at the time) did
not realize the significance of or treasure our veteran ships (or WWII-L
personalities) as we do today.

So on 01-Jul-1958 U.S.S. Enterprise, the greatest ship in United States
history was sold to Lipsett, Incorporated for the sum of $561,333.00.
A sum that would not even buy one F-14 Tomcat today..
(sorry to you fans of the USS Constitution who might not agree with my
OPINION)

For what its worth the loss of the Enterprise spurred several states into
rescuing WWII ships as state museums.  Alabama, North Carolina,
Massachusetts, CVs Yorktown, and Intrepid.

There is a WWII destroyer named U.S.S. Kidd in Baton Rouge, Louisiana at
some sort of museum.  Perhaps Mr. Terrance Lewis in New Orleans can give
more info on this ship and the museum?  The Corpus Cristi CV is the
Lexington (CV-16).

Lipsett/River Terminal Development Company also dismantled other noteworthy
ships which we discuss on this list:

BB New Mexico
BB Idaho
BB Wyoming

CA Augusta (Atlantic Charter fame)

CV Essex
CV Wasp
CV Boxer
CV Antietam
CV Franklin D. Roosevelt

Above list is undoubtedly incomplete.

Question: Were some parts of the South
Dakota saved?  Whole ship?  Hou much, Where??

The information I have spewed forth came from:

USS Enterprise (CV-6)
The most decorated ship of WWII
A Pictoral History
by Steve Ewing

Regards, and try to visit a ship this weekend.
Robert Hohlt, Jr.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 10:44:25 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Preserved Naval Vessels

Peter Smith ponders;

>But other than a cruise on the USCGC EAGLE (perish the thought!), where would
>US naval officers and seamen get such experience?  Since the X-USSR navy is
>selling off submarines and such, do you suppose the USN might be able to buy
>a tall ship?

Perhaps SOME sailing experience should be required. When a person of
authority tells the general public, including foreign guests, that nobody
in this country can sail a tall ship, then I have a problem.

There are people in Hollywood who can. There is an entire maritime museum
complete with tall ships right here in Mystic where one can learn much about
sailing tall ships., and elsewhere around the globe.

If my memory serves correctly, there are sailing replicas of the HMS Bounty
used in the movies in existance. There are also tall ships from around the
world, presumably with crews that know how they work.

When the guide doesn't even know the expected life expency of a wooden warship
of that era (12 years, I beleive, from my uneducated readings), how can he
expect to impress visitors with the longevity of the Const.?

Before I seem too hard on the crew, I'd hardly expect a youngster barely out
of his teens to posess such knowledge. He was posted there (active USN duty)
for his apearance and demeanor, and not for any apparent apptitude.

Neither do I wonder why young seamen seek such a post: Shorter hours, and a
license to talk to the girls;-). Get to wear funny uniforms too.

My complaint is that someone with more lore, and less polish, sort of a studied
grizzled vet would have a more authorative presentation. One that goes beyond
the programmed speil.

There, now you've done it. You've gotten me off on a tangent. I'll be on this
for days now.

Sorry Joe for this post.
                                                                Steve

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - [email-masked] |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 10:59:36 -0400
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Preserved Naval Vessels

>Steven Pudlo <[email-masked]> said:
>...
>> Note, during my last tour of the Constitution, just before the last refit,
>> I was dismayed at the tour guide's lack of any real knowledge of sailing
>> ships outside his programmed speil. At least the CY's guide knew something.
>>
>> As far as I'm concerned, the Const. should be staffed by naval personnel
>> with extensive training and experience in sailing ships, rather than the
>> plastic nice-looking very young types.
>

When I visited the U.S.S. Constitution several years ago, the guides seemed
quite knowledgeable  (at least to me) but I did not speak to any of the
other sailors on deck.  Perhaps you could expand on the experience you had
Steve.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka                                         National Warplane Museum
Cornell University                                 Geneseo, New York
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 10:40:56 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Saratoga

     >Jim Adams:
     >Do you know if the Sara still had any aircraft on board when they
     >used her in the a-bomb test?  If there were any left in the hangar
     >deck, would they still be in condition to interest WWII buffs who
     >dove down there? Tim J. Watts
     >Valparaiso University

     I vaguely remember a television special covering dives on these ships
     (National Geographic perhaps).  If memory serves, there was a small
     number of airframes aboard, but they didn't survive the concussion
     etc. very well.

        Steve L. New                     .............................
        Weapon System Manager            .............................
        Battalion Countermine Set        ............ /\ .............
        U.S. Army TACOM AMSTA-FR1D       ............/  \.............
        DSN: 786-5403  FAX: 786-7788     ............    .............
        EMAIL  [email-masked]   ............    .............

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 11:36:06 -0400
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HUMOR: Visiting France

This is starting to drift far afield.  Not to mention that the French
members of the list may not appreciate the humor!  Thanks.
--
Joe Barone, WWII-L listowner
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 11:48:55 -0400
From:    Peter Smith <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: PRESERVING SHIPS

Joe said:
> At Battleship Cove in Fall River, Massachusetts is the USS Massachusetts
> (naturally!), a destroyer, a sub, a landing craft, two PT boats, a Huey,
> and a T-26 (I think -- trainers don't excite me.)  I believe the
> Massachusetts is an Iowa class ship (my knowledge in naval matters
> is rudimentary at best!) because the an engine or two had been removed
> for spare parts for the Iowa.

USS MASSACHUSETTS (BB-59) was a South Dakota class, (35,000 tons, 681 feet,
27 knots, 9x16"/45).  I guess the two classes must have a lot in common
under the skin, though.  Interesting.
--
Peter Smith -- Data General Corp., Westboro MA, USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 12:49:50 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: PRESERVING SHIPS

Beggin' pardon Joe...

Do you have directions (I-95 Northbound) for battleship cove?

I've allways wanted to go there, but never had the chance. Might be
able to go this year.

Admission and other data would be most helpful.

Thanx                                                   Steve

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - [email-masked] |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 13:03:09 EDT
From:    Richard Kaplan <[email-masked]>
Subject: PT Boats

Jack, maybe I embellished a little; the PT boats are housed next to the
Battleship Cove fleet in a Quonset type structure.  There is just enough room
to wa around the boats on an elevated walkway.  There are also dioramas ans
related models.  Museum might be a strong term.

I don't know the name of the sub at Battleship Cove, but the DD is the USS
Joseph P. Kennedy; a later model can with the twin 5" mounts instead of
singles.  What I really remember is that there seemed to be more headroom (I'm
6'4") in the sub than in the

The Massachusetts isn't anclass (New Jersey, Wisconsin, Missouri, Iowa), but
the preceding one that included Washington and North Carolina.

                                        Richard Kaplan
                                        Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 12:24:00 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: "Point of order":  USCG cutter actually at Honolulu

INTERNET can be *awesome*, can't it?!  :-)

Incredible:  the wealth of expertise on here.

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 13:36:44 EDT
From:    SKIP WILDER <[email-masked]>
Subject: Preserving Ships

For Robert Hohlt:
        A quad 40mm mount from the USS South Dakota is on display at the
Navy Historical Museum, Washington Navy Yard, Washington, DC.  I'm sure Ben
Frank has seen it.

 -----------------------------------------------------------
 |    Skip Wilder              |                           |
 |    [email-masked]      |"The road to hell is paved |
 |    FAX (703)528-2103        | with good intentions."    |
 |    McLean, Virginia, U.S.A. |                           |
 -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 13:20:32 EDT
From:    SKIP WILDER <[email-masked]>
Subject: Preserved Naval Vessels

For Richard Kaplan:
        Can you tell us where the PT Boat Museum is located?  Thanks in advance.

 -----------------------------------------------------------
 |    Skip Wilder              |                           |
 |    [email-masked]      |"The road to hell is paved |
 |    FAX (703)528-2103        | with good intentions."    |
 |    McLean, Virginia, U.S.A. |                           |
 -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 14:24:37 EDT
From:    Patrick D Marsden <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Preserving Ships

One of the distinct pleasures of visiting the U.S.S. North Carolina
was the "operational" quad 40mm mounts all over the ship.  I'm sure
there were few things more humorous on that ship that the sight
of grown men merrily cranking on the handbars as they elevated and
rotated the guns.  I count myself among those who tried to track
and "shoot down" the airliners heading into Wilmington airport.

patrick

>
> For Robert Hohlt:
>         A quad 40mm mount from the USS South Dakota is on display at the
> Navy Historical Museum, Washington Navy Yard, Washington, DC.  I'm sure Ben
> Frank has seen it.
>
>  -----------------------------------------------------------
>  |    Skip Wilder              |                           |
>  |    [email-masked]      |"The road to hell is paved |
>  |    FAX (703)528-2103        | with good intentions."    |
>  |    McLean, Virginia, U.S.A. |                           |
>  -----------------------------------------------------------
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 14:43:33 -0400
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: PT Boats

>I don't know the name of the sub at Battleship Cove, but the DD is the USS
>Joseph P. Kennedy; a later model can with the twin 5" mounts instead of
>singles.  What I really remember is that there seemed to be more headroom (I'm

The twin 5" 38 mounts were of the Sumner class (3 mounts per DD) and the
single 5" 38 mounts were of the Fletcher class (5 mounts per DD).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka                                         National Warplane Museum
Cornell University                                 Geneseo, New York
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 13:44:09 EST
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Preserved World War II ships book

        I haven't seen it mentioned so I will.  There is a Government
publication entitled _Warships associated with World War II in the
Pacific: National Historic Landmark Theme Study_ by Dr. Harry A.
Butowsky (Sudoc # I29.2:W26).  This book is not paginated but is about
1 1/2"-2" thick, profusely illustrated and covers 26 vessels.  It includes
what appear to be reprints of the brochures handed out over the years at
the sites.
Ships include the following;
CV
Intrepid
Yorktown
BB
North Carolina
Alabama
Massachusetts
Missouri
CG
Des Moines
DD
Kidd
Cassin Young
The Sullivans
Laffey
Joseph P. Kennedy Jr.
SS
Siversides
Drum
Cobia
Cod
Bowfin
Pampanito
Lionfish
Becuna
Torsk

Minesweeper (what the hell was the abrev. for minesweeper??)
Hazard
Inaugral

PTB
PT796

Liberty Ship
Jeremiah O'Brien

Foreign Warships
U-505

This book was published in 1985 and should be available in any decent
sized Gov Docs collection in Public and University Libraries.
*****************************************************
(Roger) Brad Coon             The right to defend
[email-masked]          one's self and one's
[email-masked]    family against harm and
                              injustice is the most
                              basic civil right.

Proud to be a member of America's largest civil rights
group, the National Rifle Association.
******************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 13:51:48 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: USS Enterprise (CV-6) (Was: 16 carriers....)

Hello, Jorge, John and Robert!

I agree that the Enterprise should have been saved from scrapping,
but, if you think about it, the reasons are understandable, if you
consider the time the decision was made.

It was very easy to consign a ship to the scrap heap after the end of
WWII and many were, as you know. The Enterprise was just one of many
ships which had a most distinguished battle record, and to save one
ship from the scrap heap, for whatever reason, would suggest that
others should have been as well. Given the climate, at the time, of a
congress wanting to and being called on to cut back drastically from
a wartime expansion that had known no limits, the desire of the
public to forget the war and all that had happened, the call for the
preservation of a ship as distinguished as the Enterprise would have
fallen on deaf ears. And this attitude prevailed for many years after
the end of the War, even with the advent of the Korean Conflict.
As you must be aware, a change in attitude wasn't even contemplated
until much later, the 60's, 70's and 80's. It is much easier to say
that this or that ship should have been spared from the scrap heap or
destruction through atomic tests in the 1990's or earlier, but given
the public and congressional attitudes at the time, it is
understandable that there was no drive to spare this or any other
very distinguished ship from the scrapheap.

> >> Lord knows I am rarely humble about an opinion, but everytime I read
> >> something like Robert Hohlts, Jr.'s posting I start foaming at the mouth.
> >> That the US did not preserve the Enterprise remains one of the great
> >> outrages of the post-war era.  No excuse could possibly be adequate.
> >
> >Surely, I don't understand why the Navy didn't preserve her, and prefered
> >to kill her in an atomic test. She could be now a museum, if they only
> >could think twice by that time.... now, she's gone.

    Agreed, but times then were different than they are now. The
world was a different place then than now, and the idea of floating
museums was not that widespread.

    Just thought I would offer a perspective on this issue, and I
thank you for your time to read it.

    Your or anyone else's thoughts?

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 13:52:37 CDT
From:    Robert Hohlt <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: USS SARATOGA

Jim Adams wrote:

>Some recent discussion about the Saratoga and wishes that she had been
>preserved.  Although she was sunk in the Bikini a-bomb test, she has in a
>sense been preserved and is a museum, accessible by divers.  There is a
>proposal to make her into an underwater history park.  The National Park
>Service conducted surveys of her (and other ships in Bikini) in 1989.  I
>have copied part of the site description from the report here.

I have a few questions about this underwater history park Jim.

1. Isn't the Saratoga still "HOT"?

2. Who will be responsible for this underwater park? USA? Kwajalein?

It seems a shame that the only way the ex-crew of the Saratoga can
visit their ship is to travel that long distance then have to don
Scuba gear to touch their ship.

Maybe they could have one of those Altantis type submarines with
all the windows so non Scuba types and Saratoga vets could
be with their ship.  Just a thought.

BTW Jim, you guys at the Arizona Memorial are one CLASS ACT!
I am looking forward to many more visits.  Is Dick Fisk
(USS West Virginia) still acting as a tour guide there?
I am a fan of his from the National Geographic story, and
his appearances during the 50th anniversary of PH on TV.

Regards,

Robert Hohlt, Jr.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 13:57:31 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Fate of USS ENTERPRISE, CV-6

Hello, Lou!

Enjoyed your post, but I would like to respond to this part of your
message.

 > Eisenhower's other moment of inglory was when he went along
>   with the forced return of Eastern Europeans and Germans
>   to the Soviets.

    General Eisenhower had no choice but to go along with the
forcible repatriation of the former Soviets serving in the German
Army or any other Eastern European emigre found living in Western
Europe whose presence was desired by Stalin in the Soviet Union. The
details for this forcible repatriation were worked out by diplomats
in Moscow in 1944, according to Averill Harriman. This was a
political decision that left Eisenhower's hands tied.

 Thank you for allowing my comment on this.

 Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 14:19:55 -0700
From:    John Holtz <[email-masked]>
Subject: Post Washington Treaty U.S. BBs

Hi all:

I believe there were 3 classes of "fast" battleships:

North Carolina (w/South Dakota and Washington)
Indiana (w/Massachusetts and Alabama)
Iowa (w/Missouri and Wisconsin)

No Jane's at hand so this is from suspect, little accessed "grey cells."

Out.

jwh

--
John W. Holtz, Asst. Professor       INTERNET: [email-masked]
Sangamon State University Library       PHONE: (217) 786-6633
Springfield, IL  62794-9243               FAX: (217) 786-6208

 < I am not responsible for words spoken or actions taken before 11 am >

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 15:30:13 CCS
From:    Jorge Merino <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: Essex-class carriers

>From previous postings, I understand that the following Essex-class carriers
have been preserved as floating museums:

      CV-10 Yorktown
      CV-11 Intrepid
      CV-16 Lexington

Due to the large quantity of Essex-class carriers built during WW2 and
after, I think there could be more survivors, maybe not as floating museums,
but waiting for restoration, etc. Is there any more carrier of this class
still floating around? Is there any Essex-class survivor with the original
aspect/configuration as in WW2?

Jorge Merino

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 15:39:05 EDT
From:    cassady craft <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Preserved Naval Vessels

Don't forget the ALABAMA (South Dakota class BB) and DRUM (sub) in Mobile
bay.  There is also a sub in, believe it or not, Muskogee, Oklahoma--the
BATFISH.  BAttleship park in Mobile is definitely worth the visit, with
aircraft, artillery, tanks, etc.  Another one of those SR 71's with card-
board leading edges is there too.  And if you are in Muskogee---well, you
get the idea.

Cassady Craft
Department of Political Science
University of Georgia
e-mail [email-masked]
or
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 15:43:35 -0400
From:    Peter Smith <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Post Washington Treaty U.S. BBs

John Holtz <[email-masked]> said:
>
> I believe there were 3 classes of "fast" battleships:
>
> North Carolina (w/South Dakota and Washington)
> Indiana (w/Massachusetts and Alabama)
> Iowa (w/Missouri and Wisconsin)
>
> No Jane's at hand so this is from suspect, little accessed "grey cells."
>

I don't have Jane's at hand, but I do have a few notes.  There were three
classes of post-Washington Treaty BB's:

    BB-55 North Carolina & BB-56 Washington
        35,000 tons dry, 729 feet long, 27 knots, 9x16"/45

    BB57 South Dakota, BB58 Indiana, BB59 Massachusetts, & BB60 Alabama
        35,000 tons dry, 680 feet long, 27 knots, 9x16"/45

    BB61 Iowa, BB62 New Jersey, BB63 Missouri, BB64 Wisconsin
        45,000 tons dry, 887 feet long, 33 knots, 9x16"/50

All had similar silhouetts, except the NoCal's, which had a single funnel.
--
Peter Smith -- Data General Corp., Westboro MA, USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 14:58:29 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: USS Hornet (and other Essex-class carriers)

Hello, Josh!

This was the carrier Lexington which had been used for carrier
qualifications for pilot trainees at Pensacola, Florida.

Terry

> I know of a WWII-era carrier which was recently turned into a floating museum in
> Corpus Cristi, TX.  It opened as a museum in 1992.  I remember reading about it
> in the local papers when it opened, but I don't remember the name or class :(.
> This particular carrier was commissioned in either the spring or summer of 1945.
> Hope this helps some, as vague as it is.
>
> Josh Talbert
> [email-masked]
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 16:00:36 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Preserved World War II ships book

In reply to the mail from <[email-masked]>...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>        I haven't seen it mentioned so I will.  There is a Government
>publication entitled _Warships associated with World War II in the
>Pacific: National Historic Landmark Theme Study_ by Dr. Harry A.
>Butowsky (Sudoc # I29.2:W26).  This book is not paginated but is about
>1 1/2"-2" thick, profusely illustrated and covers 26 vessels.  It includes
>what appear to be reprints of the brochures handed out over the years at
>the sites.
>Ships include the following;
>CV
>Intrepid
>Yorktown
>BB
>North Carolina
>Alabama
>Massachusetts
>Missouri
>CG
>Des Moines
>DD
>Kidd
>Cassin Young
>The Sullivans
>Laffey
>Joseph P. Kennedy Jr.
>SS
>Siversides
>Drum
>Cobia
>Cod
>Bowfin
>Pampanito
>Lionfish
>Becuna
>Torsk
>
>Minesweeper (what the hell was the abrev. for minesweeper??)
>Hazard
>Inaugral
>
>PTB
>PT796
>
>Liberty Ship
>Jeremiah O'Brien
>
>Foreign Warships
>U-505
>
The BECUNA is tied up alongside Adm. Dewey's flagship OLYMPIA at
Penn's Landing on the Delware River in Philadelphia.

Jim

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 16:15:23 -0400
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: General Belgrano: Ship

Reading all of this info on the retirement of U.S. ships got me to
thinking. Wasn't the main Argentine ship of the Falklands war, the _General
Belgrano_ (I may have this wrong, I'm relying on memory) one of the ships
which survived the attack on Pearl Harbour? I seem to remember thinking
that it was a shame for us to have sold it. Just wondering,
David Rising

P.S. I posted this before, but given the new thread on French gratitude,
I'll say it again: When de Gaulle requested that the U.S. remove all
troops from French soil, Sec of State Dean Rusk (I think) replied,
"would you like us to exhume all of the bodies from your cemetaries as
well?" I have yet to find a statement which sums it up better than this.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 15:23:33 CDT
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Preserving Ships

Dear Steve Baldwin,

Isn't HMS Warrior of 1860 preserved somewhere?

Actually, the American ship preservation movement is a nefarious
attempt to avoid disarmament programs. I understand they are now
going to try and save one of the Forrestal class carriers that are
about to come up for disposition. That would make our preservation
navy nearly as strong as our 1941 fleet. I think that would give
us two carriers, at least two post-1935 battleships, and who knows
what else. But what else can you expect from a country where a
state Governor wanted to equip his militia with nuclear weapons
because they had a territorial dispute with an adjacent state?

Henry Sirotin

Ps- The carrier that has been saved is the Essex class "Intrepid",
in New York City. There is also an SR-71 Blackbird "preserved"
on her. Need I say more?

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 16:43:13 EDT
From:    Richard Kaplan <[email-masked]>
Subject: PT Boat "Museum"

Skip, and the rest of the list, I've already admitted to Jack McKillop that my
description of the PT Boat exhibit at Battleship Cove as a museum may have been
a stretch.  It has as much information as a walk through a sub, but certainly
less than the Intrepid.  Mea Culpa.

I'm surprised that up to now, all of us have missed citing the U-505 in the
Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago.

                                        Richard Kaplan
                                        Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 16:49:46 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA: Monty's PJs

>From the DoD Newswire 9 September 1994

Bids, anyone?

:FIELD MARSHAL MONTGOMERY'S PYJAMAS FOR SALE

    LONDON, Sept 8  - A pair of pyjamas belonging to Britain's
World War Two hero, Field Marshal Bernard Montgomery, are to be sold
at auction on September 27.
     The lilac flannel pyjamas, which still have the famous general's
nametag on the collar, are expected to fetch up to 500 pounds ($750),
Sotheby's auctioneers said on Thursday.
     May Campbell, 60, won the pyjamas in a raffle when she was 10.
She recently found them again in her loft, Sotheby's said in a
statement.

=====

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 17:00:33 EDT
From:    Richard Kaplan <[email-masked]>
Subject: General Belgrano

Yes, the ill fated Belgrano was the Brooklyn class light cruiser USS Phoenix.
She was built in the mid 30s, and did indeed survive Pearl Harbor.  Her
armament at the time of her sinking (5/2/82) was 15 6" guns and 8 5" guns.
Phoenix served as Admiral Kinkaid's flagship in the Seventh Fleet.  USS Phoenix
was sold to Argentina in 1951, and re-named General Belgrano after Peron was
deposed (the first time).

        Source: Woodward, Admiral Sandy
                One Hundred Days: The Memoirs of the
                Falklands Battle Group Commander

                Naval Institute Press: 1992

                p. 148

                                        Richard Kaplan
                                        Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 17:10:33 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: POW/MIA Ceremony at Travis AFB.

**NEWS RELEASES**NEWS RELEASES**NEWS RELEASES**

                                                            9 Sept 1994

NATIONAL POW/MIA DAY CEREMONY AT TRAVIS AFB, CALIF., SEPT. 16

PUBLIC AND MEDIA INVITED TO ATTEND

        TRAVIS AIR FORCE BASE, Calif -- Retired CMSgt. Spencer Dukes, a
former World War II prisoner of war and survivor of the Bataan Death
March, will speak at a Prisoners of War/Missing In Action Ceremony here
Sept. 16 at 4 p.m. The public is invited to attend.
        The 60th Airlift Wing will commemorate the day with a formal
retreat ceremony, and will present a POW Medal to Mrs. Felisa Beltran of
Fairfield, the widow of retired Army Lt. Ludovico Beltran, another death
march survivor. The reviewing officer will be Brig. Gen. Howard "Foot"
Ingersoll, 60th AW commander.
        In attendance will be veterans and former POWs from three
American wars (World War II, Korean War and Vietnam War) and families of
servicemembers still listed as missing in action in Southeast Asia.
        The ceremony pays tribute to all former POWS and those missing in
action from all American conflicts, and is a message to the American
people that those who make the ultimate sacrifice for their country are
not forgotten.

                                -30-

MEDIA ADVISORY:  Media interested in attending the ceremony or those
media with queries should call TSgt. Patrick McKenna at (707) 424-2011.

--
______________________________________________________________________________
Patrick M. McKenna     Air Force Technical Sergeant       Travis AFB, Calif.
              Noncommissioned Officer in Charge of Media Relations
Work Phone: (707) 424-0135/2011             E-Mail: [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 17:43:50 -0500
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Monty's PJs

> >From the DoD Newswire 9 September 1994
>
> Bids, anyone?
>
>
> :FIELD MARSHAL MONTGOMERY'S PYJAMAS FOR SALE

Do they have British Field Marshal's insignias?  If so, then we'll
talk! :-)  Had a chance at Goerings shorts once but decided agianst
it.  Pity, I understand they had an original skid mark too....

Have a good weekend, Bill Huber (in Friday afternoon giddy mode)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 19:33:15 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HUMOR: Visiting France

Bill says,...
>My wife was president of her French Club in High-school and went to
>France with the club on summer break.  After two weeks of seeing the
>sights of France on their way home they got caught in a strike
>by the Paris Airport because of US objections to the SST landing in
>the US.  The French refused to let any of the US flights leave.
>So picture a bunch of "rude American" high-school kids stuck in the
>Paris Airport with no way of getting home.  They decided that since
>they were stuck there they would treat the French to a free concert
>featuring "America the Beautiful", "The Star Spangled Banner" and
>similar French favorites sung in a variety of keys.  It was described
>as --- undescribable.  The good hearted French airport administrators
>devised a resolution to this unfortunate situation and flights
>departing Paris resumed.....  I think the trashcan and kazoo corps
>may have tipped the balance.

Bill, that's great! My wife who is also a French afficianada says, "Ain't
No business like Show business,... " -Al

Alan G. Wild
Admin. Computing
University of Rhode Island
Kingston, R.I.  02881

I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 19:43:44 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: PRESERVING SHIPS

I'll chime in by reporting that the Barry (DD ) is tied up in the Washington
Navy Yard and is visited by many tourists who also visit the Navy Museum and
the Marine Corps Museum, in different buildings. The Navy has spent a
considerable amount of money making the Navy Yard an historic district. The
Navy Museum is especially great for kids because there are all sorts of
hands-on items they can play with, AA guns, periscopes that work, and so on.
Our Marine Corps Museum displays a great number of historic artifacts, such as
the two flags which were raised over Iwo Jima (ask me about this some time),
Sandino's flag, and the like. Right now we are mounting a World War II exhibit,
adding items as each major operation is commemorated. I am not a museologist
but I feel that both museums are well worth a visit. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 19:58:40 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: PRESERVING SHIPS

Joe, your last quote about playing music when we go into battle reminds me of a
couple of things. Of course, one remembers the moview Desert Victory as I think
it was called, Montgomery's offensive against Rommel, and there in the night
shots of the full artillery barrages being fired, one could see and hear a
piper leading the charge. Also, as the Marines crossed the berms into enemy
territory in Desert Storm, from the loudspeakers of the tanks leading the
attack came the music of "The Marines Hymn." As a sidenote, the night before
the 22d Marine Amphibious Unit landed on Grenada, the phibron commander had
"Sands of Iwo Jima" shown on all ships to all hands. Talk about inspiration....
Second to the Hymn comes "Scotland the Brave." Ben Frank (P.S., we might start
a thread on military music, no?)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 20:17:39 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: PRESERVING SHIPS

Yes, Skip, I have, and it is one of the weapons kids can climb all over or man
the seats on which the gunners controlling the traverse and elevation sat.
Great place. Ben Frank

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Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 20:19:46 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: POST WASHINGTON TR

For anyone interested, the final volume of Morison's history is an index of all
the volumes in the series, and equally or more important, he has a listing of
every ship, vessel, craft which sailed in WWII, with their description, date of
launching and other statistics. Check it out.
ben frank

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 21:05:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 10 SEP 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
SUNDAY, 10 SEPTEMBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 6 B-25s fly shipping sweep off Suribachi,
Kurile Islands.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, troop carrier and cargo hauls
continue on a large scale to numerous points in the CBI; 24 B-24s haul fuel
to Kunming, China.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 45 B-25s bomb the towns of Kutkai,
Ssutang, Samshui, Tunganhsien, Lingling, and Tunghsiangchiao, and hit a fuel
dump near Lingling; about 140 P-40s and P-51s on armed reconnaissance over E
Burma, SW China, and inland SE China attack a huge number of targets of
opportunity including troops, aircraft, river shipping, trucks, runways,
bridges, and supply areas; and a flight of the 21st Photographic
Reconnaissance Squadron, Fourteenth Air Force, based at Kunming, begins
operating from Liuchow with F-5s.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 4 missions are flown.
  Mission 619: 1,144 bombers and 570 fighters are dispatched to targets in
the Stuttgart, Germany area; 7 bombers are lost mostly to flak and 5 fighters
are lost:
  1. 388 B-24s are dispatched and hit secondary targets, the marshalling
yards at Ulm (247) and Heilbronn (100); 2 others bomb targets of opportunity;
1 B-24 is lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 65 damaged; 1 airman is KIA, 2
WIA and 10 MIA. Escort is provided by 153 P-38s and P-51s; 2 P-51s are lost,
3 damaged beyond repair and 1 P-38 and 3 P-51s damaged; 1 pilot is KIA and 2
MIA.
  2. 385 B-17s are dispatched to hit a tank factory at Nurnberg (173),
Giebelstadt Airfield (112) and an aircraft components plant at Furth (60); 8
others hit targets of opportunity; 3 B-17s are lost and 147 damaged; 7 airmen
are WIA and 28 MIA. Escort is provided by 221 P-47s and P-51s; they claim
1-0-0 aircraft in the air and 38-0-44 on the ground; 3 P-51s are lost and 2
damaged; 3 pilots are MIA.
  3. 372 B-17s are dispatched to attack a motor vehicle factory at Gaggenau
(140), a jet-propulsion units plant at Zuffenhausen (116) and an engine
factory at Sindelfingen (73); 19 others hit targets of opportunity; 3 B-17s
are lost, 5 damaged beyond repair and 169 damaged; 9 airmen are WIA and 27
MIA. Escort is provided by 135 of 153 P-51s; they claim 1-1-0 aircraft in the
air and 29-0-1 on the ground without loss.
  Mission 620: 1 B-17 flies a mission to trial the GB-4 radio/visual control
bomb against Duren, Germany
  Mission 621: 3 of 3 B-17s fly a radar and photo reconnaissance mission over
Germany; leaflets are also dropped.
  6 of 7 B-17s drop leaflets on France, the Netherlands and Germany during
the night.
  121 of 135 P-47s strafe airfields and ground and rail traffic in a sweep
over the Cologne, Frankfurt/Main, and Kassel areas; they claim 10-0-21
aircraft on the ground; 8 P-47s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 4
damaged; 8 pilots are MIA.
  35 B-24s and C-47s fly CARPETBAGGER missions during the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Advance HQ, Ninth AF, assigns rail
lines approaching the Rhine River from the W, N of Karlsruhe, to be attacked
by IX and XIX Tactical Air Command fighters in the first of a series of
orders setting up rail interdiction programs to cut lines W and E of the
Rhine River in Sep and early Oct; changes and additions to targets appear on
12 and 14 Sep when a list of all lines to be cut is published.
  In France, about 340 B-26s and A-20s hit strongpoints and ammunition stores
in the Foret de Haye, Custines rail bridge, and a road bridge over the Mosel
River; escorting fighters provide general air cover in the Metz-Nancy area,
and support US Third Army ground forces in stemming a counterattack there;
800+ C-47s complete supply and evacuation missions; the southern invading
forces and those of the Normandy invasion meet; the City of Luxembourg is
liberated; HQ 70th Fighter Wing moves from Versailles to Marchais; and the
153d Liaison Squadron, IX Tactical Air Command (attached to First Army),
moves from St Cyr to Vuel, Belgium with L-5s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Austria, 344 B-17s and B-24s
bomb 5 ordnance depots and SE industrial area in Vienna and 2 oil refineries
in the area. 88 B-24s escorted by P-38s and P-51s bomb the port of Trieste,
Italy. and 45 B-24s, with P-51s escorting, fly a supply mission to Lyon,
France.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium bombers continue
the campaign against railroad bridges in the Po Valley and execute 4 attacks
against supply and ammunition dumps; fighter-bombers hit dumps and
communications as the ground assault on the Gothic Line commences during the
early morning. In France, XII Tactical Air Command fighters and fighter-
bombers blast communications in the Belfort and Dijon areas, cutting
railroads and hitting several trains.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): B-24s from Saipan Island hit Iwo Jima Island
and strike shipping near Iwo Jima.  Eniwetok Atoll-based B-24s bomb Truk
Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: On Celebes Island,
B-24s pound airfields at Langoan and Mapanget and hit Tomohon and the
waterfront area of Menado. On Halmahera Island, Lolobata and Hate Tabako
Airfields are bombed and areas along Wasile Bay strafed. B-25s, A-20s, and
P-38s hit airfields and oil storage at Namlea on Buru Island, and Amahai and
Boela on Ceram Island while B-24s hit Laha Airfield, Celebes Island. In New
Guinea, A-20s and fighters hit airfields at Samate, Sagan, Nabire, Urarom,
Manokwari, Moemi, and Ransiki; the 8th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron,
6th Photographic Reconnaissance Group, moves from Nadzab to Biak Island with
F-5s; and the 672d Bombardment Squadron (Light), 417th Bombardment Group
(Light), moves form Saidor to Noemfoor Island with A-20s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

10/0108Z SEP

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Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 21:28:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: PRESERVING SHIPS

Gotta get a plug in for my native state, New Jersey.  The Submarine Ling
(SS-297) is open for viewing at Court and River Streets in Hackensack, New
Jersey.  My wife and I went there a number of years ago and were given a
very interesting tour by an ex submariner who told us all kinds of personal
stories that always make these tours interesting.

According to my 1991 New Jersey tour book, the sub is open from 1000 to
1700 daily except major holdiays and it may be closed on Mondays and
Tuesdays during the winter.  In 1991, the price was $3 for adults and $2
for children.

For further information, call (201) 342-3268.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

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Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 22:13:50 -0500
From:    Bill Smith <[email-masked]>
Subject: Ship Museums

My two cents:

Kidd is in reasonable shape, and part of a downtown museum complex and
shopping area in Baton Rouge.

Alabama and Drum(?-is that the right sub) are also joined by a eclectic
aircraft collection ranging from a P-51 and other static WWII vintage to
a B-52 and SR-71.  Alabama makes for an impressive interstate view, but
as you fly down I-10 outside Mobile you're on a two-lane bridge across
the bay.  Hard to watch the ship and the traffic.

For my money, the Alabama site is part of a nifty two-day museum swing
along the Gulf Coast.  Within 45 minutes of the Alabama is the Naval Air
Museum at Pensacola.  Another hour and a half (if the traffic is bad) is
Eglin AFB's Air Force Armanent Museum.

Now I'm sure if I'd been saving more of these posts I wouldn't have to
make this query, but has anyone decided to compile all these ships into a
easy list with locations.  I noticed someone posted a list from a
government document that was lengthy, but no sites were listed.  Any takers?

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 9 Sep 1994 23:16:00 EST
From:    "CARL WERNKE (TCWERNC@VCCSCENT)" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Preserved World WarII ships book

 To: Multiple recipients of list WWII-L([email-masked])
 In-Reply-To: James E. Irwin Fri, 9 Sep 1994 16:00:36 -0400

 James writes:
 >Minesweeper (what the hell was the abrev. for minesweeper ??)

              Minesweeper: (AM)
              Converted destroyers: Fast minesweepers: (DMS)
              Coastal minesweepers (AMc)
              Motor minesweepers (YMS)

  Carl Wernke
  [email-masked]

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End of WWII-L Digest - 8 Sep 1994 to 9 Sep 1994
***********************************************