Subject: WWII-L Digest - 21 Sep 1994 to 22 Sep 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 1994 00:00:54 -0400

There are 64 messages totalling 1761 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. War Plan Yellow
  2. WAR PLAN YELLOW (5)
  3. Air Tactics (2)
  4. INF: USN Chronology 09-22-94
  5. USS FRANKLIN (CV-13) (3)
  6. TRIVIA: Czech army (5)
  7. RIP (2)
  8. INF: 50 Years Ago - 23-SEP-1944
  9. Franklin (2)
 10. [INF] USAAF 21 Sep 44
 11. VET: Locating Veterans (2)
 12. WEAP:Scwerer Gustav (2)
 13. M-1 Garand cartridge (7)
 14. News from Wilhelmshaven
 15. TRIVIA: Czech Army
 16. WEAP: USS Langley (CV-1) (7)
 17. USS Langley
 18. Phillipine Invasion Unnec
 19. Triv: General Doolittle (was Re: VET: Locating Veterans)
 20. WEAP: Gustav Geraet
 21. Island Hopping & the Phil (2)
 22. Aftermath of Market Garden??? (2)
 23. INF: 50 Years Ago - 21-SEP-1944
 24. Re[2]: Air Tactics
 25. TRIV: AMERICAN HEL
 26. FW: World War II Guide
 27. MEDIA:Wartime Trauma
 28. MEDIA:Bombers to Ukraine
 29. M-1 Garand
 30. PELELIU (3)
 31. TRIV: American helmets
 32. [INF] USAAF 23 SEP 44
 33. USS Bunker Hill (CV-17)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 00:35:45 EST
From:    "CARL WERNKE (TCWERNC@VCCSCENT)" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: War Plan Yellow

 To: Multiple recipients of list WWII-L([email-masked])

 Edward S.Miller Tue, 20 Sep 1994 19:56:00 UTC

 Ed, your post stated:
 > If the crowd wants more, I can post details from Mead's work.

 Please do post more details on both War Plan Orange and War Plan Yellow,
 especially on Orange ! I will use this information in my college history
 courses at Tidewater Community College.

 Carl Wernke
 [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 04:58:00 UTC
From:    "Edward S. Miller" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WAR PLAN YELLOW

Ben Frank asked:
  > ...your posting about WP Yellow. Could you please transmit it to me
  > again.
 Ben - that was the last line, only my signature followed
  Pete Ellis died in the Palaus, maybe not Peleliu.  Your other statements
about him seem to be generally accepted.  Dirk Ballendorf of Univ. of Guam
is the world's leading expert.  He is married to a Palauan woman and has
interviewed elderly locals who knew Ellis.  Dirk debunked Ellis a couple of
years back in a  hilarious lecture in Washington DC, something like "A
Marine in Mufti's Multiple Muff-Ups in Micronesia."  Dirk can probably be
reached by internet.
  In all seriousness, I wish historians would remember that Ellis's famous
1921 tactical study "Advanced Base Operations in Micronesia" was part of a
larger navy War Plan Orange to island-hop across the Pacific, building
bases, fighting the Japanese fleet, and eventually defeating Japan. Also, he
addressed only landings on small atolls; Ellis himself said that landing
operations would be quite different on high islands like Truk and Saipan (we
can add Iwo and Peleliu). He intended to write such a study but never got to
it.
  Ed Miller

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 14:43:09 +0200
From:    "A.Bouis" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Air Tactics

(First off, a big hello to some folks who know me, I'm very glad to be back on this list).

As there are some Air Force specialists out here, I would like to ask a question which naturally stems from my practice of wargaming, or war simulations.

I am wondering which factors, technical and tactical, dictated the number of aircraft sent to combat missions in WWII.
Operational simulations typically dictate that the more fighter aircraft a mission contains, the more invulnerable it grows to air interception. the more bombers the better as well, since AA fire is dispersed between the attacking craft.

In short, in the classical simulation, the bigger the airgroups, the better.

However, WWII operations seem strongly to deny this.

Thence the question : What was the Air Force doctrine concerning the shaping of mission groups ? A standard ratio of fighters to bombers ? Were there ever guidelines on mission composition ? Were there standard tactics ?

Arnaud.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 01:14:16 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 09-22-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
09/22 Fri. Submarine NARWHAL (SS-167) lands men and supplies on
           south west coast of Mindanao, P. I.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 06:54:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: USS FRANKLIN (CV-13)

Ben Frank said:

 >There is a particularly poignant picture I have once seen
 >of the Big Ben passing under Brooklyn Bridge, taken from the bridge. Ben Frank

I remember seeing a photograph of a beaten up carrier coming into
New York Harbor and passing the Statue of Liberty.  A portion of
the flight deck is raised at about a 45 degree angle and there is a
hole in it.  The photographer shot through the hole and used the
hole as a frame for the Statue of Liberty.  Very beautiful picture
that says a lot.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 06:51:18 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRIVIA: Czech army

> > Actually it meant quite a bit, as unlike the French models, the Germans
> > ADOPTED the Czech models as first line equipment, in fact using them
> > against the French with great success.
>
>         What I meant was that tactics and doctrine play a role in the
> effectiveness of armor.  The French tanks that the Germans encountered
> was superior in armor and firepower but they were utilized as infantry
> support and were sent in piecemeal against the Panzers.  DeGaulle's
> 4th Armored Division showed what French tanks were capable of when used
> properly.  (The Germans didn't bother adding French tanks to their first
> line equipment because they were so slow.  They were incorporated into
> garrison units and their chassis were used for self-propelled artillery.)

Another reason why the Germans didn't use the French tanks for other than
SPG chassis and training is that they had one man turrets.

One man turrets are a monstrosity guaranteed to drive a track commander
nuts, much less a unit commander.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 07:25:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: RIP

The Associated Press is reporting that the Reverand William Downey,
a chaplain assigned to the US Army Air Forces' 509th Composite Group
on Tinian Island, Mariana Islands in 1945, died Monday, September 19
at Fox Point, Wisconsin.  The 509th was the special group that
dropped the two atomic bombs on Japan.  Downey prayed with the crew
of the ENOLA Gay before they took off on their mission to bomb
Hiroshima, Japan on 6 Aug 45 and after the war maintained that under
the circumstances, the atomic bombing of Japan was the right thing
to do.

Requiescat in pace.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 04:46:17 -0700
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 23-SEP-1944

On 23-SEP-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The battles in the Arnhem area continue with no real change on
either side. Canadian units cross the Escaut canal in the beginning of their
offensive to clear the north bank of the Scheldt.

Eastern Front - Troops of the 3rd Baltic Front reach the Gulf of Riga at Parnu,
in southern Estonia. In Rumania, the Russian troops push on beyond Arad to the
Hungarian frontier.

Italian Front - 5th Army's attacks north of Florence clear the Futa Pass
through the Appenines.

Greece - British commandos parachute on to Araxos to occupy the local
airfield. From here the Allies will be able to strike at the Germans as they
retreat from Greece

Peleliu - The 321st Infantry Regiment advances along the west coast as far as
the village of Garekoru. Efforts to advance against the Japanese resistance on
Mount Umurbrogol continue to fail.

Angaur - Another raid by the 322nd Infantry into the Lake Salome area takes
place. Once again they withdraw in the evening.

Burma/China - On the Salween front, the Japanese dispatch a column with
supplies for the garrison at Pingka, which the Chinese are attacking.

The Homefront
-------------
College Football Scores - Arkansas 7, Missouri 6; Duke 61, Richmond 7;
Michigan 14, Marquette 0; NC State 27, Milligan 7 (go Wolfpack); Pittsburgh
26, Virginia 14; UCLA 13, Southern Cal. 13; Wake Forest 7, North Carolina 0;
Illinois 26, Indiana 18; Kentucky 27, Mississippi 7.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "Facts On File Yearbook 1944,
Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 05:01:45 -0700
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: Franklin

There was some discussion yesterday about the Franklin. If I am
remembering correctly there is an old movie called "Task Force" starring
Gary Cooper. It is basically about naval aviation thru the 20's, 30's and
the war. But the closing episodes deal with Cooper being Captain of a
carrier that is heavily attacked and it was supposedly the Franklin. They
didn't ever call it that but the story was the same. But anyway they used
a lot of original footage for the battle scenes and there are some good
shots of the Franklin in the movie. I believe they even have shots of it
coming into NY. If you ever get a chnace to watch this old movie it has
alot of original footage spliced in throughout the story.

------------
John Davis    [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 07:22:48 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: USS FRANKLIN (CV-13)

Hello, Ben!

Very interesting post!

> carrier hit Brooklyn. There is a particularly poignant picture I have once seen
> of the Big Ben passing under Brooklyn Bridge, taken from the bridge. Ben Frank

    There is also film footage of the Franklin passing under the
Brooklyn Bridge. I don't know if you were aware of that.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 07:25:01 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [INF] USAAF 21 Sep 44

Hello, Cassady!

> Is it the .30-06 Springfield round, or something different?

    Yes.

    Terry

> Cassady Craft
> Department of Political Science
> University of Georgia
> e-mail [email-masked]
> or
> [email-masked]
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 07:38:28 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: VET: Locating Veterans

Hello, Dave!

> the war coming up). What I want to know is if anyone knows of any MoH
> winners who are living in the Boston area (from WWII or other
> wars/conflicts).

    I will check my records. I have corresponded with many.

I think it would be interesting to interview them and
> see how the MoH has affected their lives.

    That will depend on the recipient. Most are very very proud of
being awarded the decoration, as you may imagine. There are some with
whom I have corresponded who could care less, one way or the other. I
have always found that very curious, as to why some could have cared
less.

 There would also be the
> advantage that I could give you all a definitive answer on a) why people
> did what they did to win the MoH and b) if they think the rewards
> (monetary or emotional) were worth it.

    I think those who were awarded this decoration didn't think about
any financial reward at the time they performed their act of heroism.
>From all I have read of this, the situation confronting them at the
time determined their response. War brings out both the best and
worst in people, as you know, but these fellows did what the
situation required.

    Thank you for allowing my opinion on this.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 07:43:14 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRIVIA: Czech army

Hello, Ken!

> Well, according to Hart, the German generals would have balked & marched on
> Berlin instead (-:

    I just wanted to add that, according to Franz Halder, had the
Czechs, British and French declared war on Germany, he and a few
others in the conspiracy against Hitler at the time would have
arrested Hitler. How prepared they were to carry this out is anyone's
guess.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 07:45:47 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: RIP

Hello, Jack!

Sorry to hear about the passing of Reverend Downey. Thanks for the
post.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 09:00:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Franklin

 >There was some discussion yesterday about the Franklin. If I am
 >remembering correctly there is an old movie called "Task Force" starring
 >Gary Cooper. It is basically about naval aviation thru the 20's, 30's and
 >the war. But the closing episodes deal with Cooper being Captain of a
 >carrier that is heavily attacked and it was supposedly the Franklin. They
 >didn't ever call it that but the story was the same. But anyway they used
 >a lot of original footage for the battle scenes and there are some good
 >shots of the Franklin in the movie. I believe they even have shots of it
 >coming into NY. If you ever get a chnace to watch this old movie it has
 >alot of original footage spliced in throughout the story.
 >
 >------------
 >John Davis    [email-masked]
 >Cary, N.C.
 >------------

>From Leonard Maltin's MOVE AND VIDEO GUIDE 1994

TASK FORCE, release in 1949, black and white, 116 minutes.

Maltin gives it 2.5 stars out of a possible 4.

Director: Delmer Daves.

Starring Gary Cooper, Jane Wyatt, Wayne Morris, Walter Brennan,
Julie London (YEAH!!!!!!), Bruce Bennett, Stanley Ridges and Jack
Holt.

Well-made but unremarkable story of a Naval officer's career,
tracing aircraft carrier development.  Originally shown with some
scenes in color.

NOT available on VHS, Beta or LaserDisc.
^^^

If I remember correctly, the film included some scenes of the Old
Covered Wagon, i.e., the USS Langley (CV-1).

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 14:06:02 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP:Scwerer Gustav

Hi Terry!
thanks for posting on this gun - wow - what an amazing piece of
engineering....
what is the concensus on this weapon - surely what it achieved was
not worth all the effort in building / transporting it etc? and
it was only good for 100 rounds...,

Steve Baldwin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 08:30:41 EST
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: M-1 Garand cartridge

        Cassady Craft asks what cartidge the M-1 Garand rifle uses. It
was indeed the .30-06 of Springfield fame.
*****************************************************
(Roger) Brad Coon             The right to defend
[email-masked]          one's self and one's
[email-masked]    family against harm and
                              injustice is the most
                              basic civil right.

Proud to be a member of America's largest civil rights
group, the National Rifle Association.
******************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 09:27:00 EST
From:    "Eliot K. Friedman" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Air Tactics

Arnaud asks:
As there are some Air Force specialists out here, I would like to ask a question
 which naturally stems from my practice of wargaming, or war simulations.

I am wondering which factors, technical and tactical, dictated the number of air
craft sent to combat missions in WWII.
Operational simulations typically dictate that the more fighter aircraft a missi
on contains, the more invulnerable it grows to air interception. the more bomber
s the better as well, since AA fire is dispersed between the attacking craft.

In short, in the classical simulation, the bigger the airgroups, the better.

However, WWII operations seem strongly to deny this.

Thence the question : What was the Air Force doctrine concerning the shaping of
mission groups ? A standard ratio of fighters to bombers ? Were there ever guide
lines on mission composition ? Were there standard tactics ?

    The simulations you refer to may not take into account the fact that an
    infinite number of aircraft won't fit into a given volume of air.  They
    can't all be over the target at the same time.  Beyond a certain
    number, your planes are just standing in line for the AA people, who
    will eventually get the range, while the target becomes increasingly
    obscured by smoke from earlier bombs.  Getting 1000+ planes into attack
    formation isn't a trivial problem either.

    Plus, not every target requires a megaton of bombs.  It's wasteful to
    send 1000 bombers when a bridge might only need 10.  Even if you've got
    the 1000, they might be more effectively used elsewhere.  A few of
    those 1000 will be lost from operational problems even without enemy
    action.  Real people will die.  It's easy to forget that when you
    wargame.  Plenty more counters in the box.

    El

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 09:58:29 -0400
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: VET: Locating Veterans

>
>    That will depend on the recipient. Most are very very proud of
>being awarded the decoration, as you may imagine. There are some with
>whom I have corresponded who could care less, one way or the other. I
>have always found that very curious, as to why some could have cared
>less.
>

In the Late Gen. Jimmy Doolittle's autobiography, Gen. Doolittle explained
that he was very reluctant to except his CMOH.  It wasn't until the
survivors of the Tokyo Raid threatened to hog-tie him and force him to
accept it that he accepted the medal for himself (and his unit).
Intrestingly Gen. Doolittle personally felt that the CMOH should only
awarded to those who saved anothers life.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 11:10:35 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: News from Wilhelmshaven

(AP) Experts identified a British made, 1000-lb unxeploded bomb in a
construction site at Wilhelmshaven, Germany. 10,000 were exvacuated after
experts identified that its detonator was damaged.

Ebda-ebda-ebda-ebda that's all folks! ('Sorry. 'Been on VWAR-L for a week
or so. Guess it shows... ;-) Al

Alan G. Wild
Admin. Computing
University of Rhode Island
Kingston, R.I.  02881

I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 11:16:03 CCS
From:    Jorge Merino <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: USS FRANKLIN (CV-13)

Very interesting information. And what happened to USS Bunker Hill (CV-17)?
I've heard that she was so badly damaged that the crew was ordered to abandon
the ship, but the speaker system didn't work, so, she wasn't abandoned, and
the survivors continued fighting the fire, until she was finally saved.
She also returned to the USA by her own power.

Jorge Merino

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 11:12:03 -0500
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRIVIA: Czech Army

Joe Barone-
Thanks for your earlier post.  Not to beat a dead horse, but can you post
the TOE of a Czech armored and/or motorized division?  I find the
philosophies and organizations of these early armored units very interesting.
Everyone was trying to figure out the best way to use these new weapons-
whether as infantry support (French) or in all-armor units (English).

I also wonder if anyone else has come across the theory that armored units
in particular are a reflection of the level of mechanization of their
society.  The more cars and trucks a society had, the more effective its
armor/mechanized units were.  American, German, English and even French
society had many cars, so armored divisions were natural developments for
them (more people knew how to drive, how to maintain motors, more
industrial plants, etc.).  The Russians would seem to be an abberation,
caused by ruthless mechanization of the army from the top.

On the other hand, a society like Italy's, being mostly agricultural,
did not have the base for a successful armored force.  This would explain
the lack of significant development of Italy's armored forces, both in
tactics and material.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 11:59:30 CCS
From:    Jorge Merino <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: USS Langley (CV-1)

What kind of role has played USS Langley in WW2? I think this carrier was
already obsolete by that time, and I guess she had to be limited to operate
with small planes. Or perhaps she could serve as training carrier, or
aircraft transport. I guess she was either sunk or retired, because another
WW2 carrier: the Independence-class light carrier CVL-27, was also named
Langley.

Jorge Merino

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 12:32:25 CDT
From:    Jesse Carnes <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: M-1 Garand cartridge

Did the Garandever use the .308 as well?

Jesse Carnes

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 13:53:15 -0400
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: USS Langley (CV-1)

>What kind of role has played USS Langley in WW2? I think this carrier was
>already obsolete by that time, and I guess she had to be limited to operate
>with small planes. Or perhaps she could serve as training carrier, or
>aircraft transport. I guess she was either sunk or retired, because another
>WW2 carrier: the Independence-class light carrier CVL-27, was also named
>Langley.
>
>Jorge Merino

Hopefully I am not wrong but wasn't the U.S.S. Langley used to ferry P-40's
into Java and then sunk their by Japanese bombers in February of 1942.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 14:00:05 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: USS Langley

From: Dictionary of American Fighting Ships, Navy Department, Office of
the Chief of Naval Operations, Naval History Division, Washington, D.C.

LANGLEY (AC-3) [CV-1 below]

dp. 19,360;
l. 542';
b. 65';
d. 27'8";
s. 15 k.;
cpl. 163;
a. 4 4"

JUPITER (AC-3) was laid down 18 October 1911 by Mare Island Navy Yard,
Vallejo, Calif.; launched 14 August 1912; sponsored by Mrs. Thomas F.
Ruhm; and  commissioned 7 April 1913, Comdr. Joseph M. Reeves in
command.

After successfully passing her trials, JUPITER, the first electrically
propelled ship of the U.S. Navy, embarked a Marine detachment at San
Francisco and reported to the Pacific Fleet at Mazatlan, Mexico, 27
April 1914,  bolstering U.S. naval strength on the Mexican Pacific coast
during the tense days of the Vera Cruz crisis. She remained on the
Pacific coast until she departed for Philadelphia, 10 October. En route
the collier steamed through the Panama canal on Columbus Day-the first
vessel to transit it from west to east.

Prior to America's entry into World War I, she cruised the Atlantic and
Gulf of Mexico attached to the Atlantic Fleet Auxiliary Division. The
ship arrived Norfolk 6

April 1917, and, assigned to NOTS, interrupted her coaling operations by
two cargo voyages to France in June 1917 and November 1918. She was back
in Norfolk 23 January 1919 whence she sailed for Brest, France, 8 March
for coaling duty in European waters to expedite the return of victorious
veterans to the United States. Upon reaching Norfolk 17 August, the ship
was transferred to the west coast. Her conversion to an aircraft carrier
was authorized 11 July 1919, and she sailed to Hampton Roads, Va., 12
December where she decommissioned 24 March 1910.

Jupiter was converted into the first U.S. aircraft  carrier at the Navy
Yard, Norfolk, Va., for the purpose of conducting experiments in the new
idea of seaborne  aviation, a field of unlimited possibilities. Her name
was changed to LANGLEY 11 April 1920; she was reclassified CV-1 and
recommissloned 20 March 1922, Comdr.  Kenneth Whiting in command. Her
statistics as an aircraft carrier are:

CV-1

dp. 11,500 length. 542' beam. 65' extreme width (of flight deck). 65';
draft. 18'11" speed. 15 k. complement. 468 armament. 4 5",  aircraft. 55
(max)  class. LANGLEY

As the First Navy carrier, LANGLEY was the scene of numerous momentous
events. On 17 October 1922 Lt. Virgil C. Griffin piloted the first
plane, a V-E-7-SF, launched from her decks. Though this was not the
first time an airplane had taken off from a ship, and though LANGLEY was
not the first ship with an installed flight-deck, this one launching was
of monumental importance to the modern U.S. Navy. The era of the
aircraft carrier was born introducing into the Navy what was to become
the  vanguard of its forces in the future. With LANGLEY underway 9 days
later, Lt. Comdr. G. DeC. Chevalier made the first landing in an
Aeromarine. On 18 November Commander Whiting, at the controls of a PT,
was the first aviator to be catapulted from a carrier's deck.
By 15 January 1923 LANGLEY had begun flight  operations and tests in the
Caribbean for carrier landings.  In June she steamed to Washington,
D.C., to give a  demonstration at a flying exhibition before civil and
military dignitaries. She arrived Norfolk 13 June and commenced training
along the Atlantic coast and Caribbean which carried her through the end
of the gear. In 1924 LANGLEY participated in more maneuvers and
exhibitions, and spent the summer at Norfolk for repairs and
alterations, she departed for the west coast late in the year and
arrived San Diego 29 November to join the Pacific Battle Fleet. For the
next 12 years she operated off the California coast and Hawaii engaged
in training fleet units,  experimentation, pilot training, and tactical-
fleet problems.  On 25 October 1936 she put into Mare Island Navy Yard,
Calif., for overhaul and conversion to a seaplane tender. Though her
career as a carrier had ended, her well-trained pilots proved invaluable
to the next two carriers, LEXINGTON (CV-2) and SARATOGA (CV-3).

LANGLEY completed conversion 26 February 1937 and was reclassified AV-3
on 11 April she was assigned to  Aircraft Scouting Force and commenced
her tending  operations out of Seattle, Sitka, Pearl Harbor, and San
Diego. She departed for a brief deployment with the Atlantic Fleet from
1 February to 10 July 1939, and then steamed to assume her duties with
the Pacific fleet at Manila arriving 24 September.

At the outbreak of World War II, LANGLEY was anchored off Cavite,
Philippine Islands. She departed 8 December and proceeded to Balikpapan,
Borneo, and Darwin, Australia, where she arrived 1 January 1942. Until
11 January LANGLEY assisted the RAAF in running antisubmarine patrols
out of Darwin. She was then assigned to American-British-Dutch-
Australian forces assembling in Indonesia to challenge the Japanese
thrust in that  direction. She departed Freemantle, Australia, 22
February in convoy, and left the convoy 5 days later to deliver 32 P-
40's to Tjilatjap, Java.

Early in the morning 27 February, LANGLEY  rendezvoused with her
antisubmarine screen, destroyers WHIPPLE (DD-217) and EDSALL (DD-219).
At 1140 nine twinengine enemy bombers attacked her. The first and second
Japanese strikes were unsuccessful; but during the third LANGLEY took
five hits. Aircraft topside burst into flames, steering was impaired,
and the ship took a 10 degree list to port. Unable to negotiate the
narrow mouth of Tjilatjap Harbor, LANGLEY went dead in the water as
inrushing water flooded her main motors. At 1332 the order to abandon
ship was passed. The escorting destroyers fired nine 4-inch shells and
two torpedoes into the old tender to insure her sinking. She went down
about 75 miles south of Tjilatjap with a loss of l6.

Transcribed and edited by:
Larry W. Jewell
[email-masked]

        Steve L. New                     .............................
        Weapon System Manager            .............................
        Battalion Countermine Set        ............ /\ .............
        U.S. Army TACOM AMSTA-IM-FR1D    ............/  \.............
        DSN: 786-5403  FAX: 786-7788     ............    .............
        EMAIL  [email-masked]   ............    .............

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 13:07:49 -0500
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: USS Langley (CV-1)

She was converted to an aircraft ferry before the war.  They had to convert
her to stay within the limits of the 1930 Naval Treaty.  Most of her
flight deck was cut away, except for an area over the stern.  She ended
up being sunk while trying to run P-40's into Java.  I think it was March
1942.
Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 11:32:18 -0700
From:    Jim Curry <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: USS Langley (CV-1)

The USS Langley was sunk by the Japanese in an attempt to ferry aircraft
to Java early in the war. It was no longer used as a carrier; the planes
aboard (Army P-40s) were still in crates.
Jim Curry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 11:46:42 -0800
From:    Julian E Gomez <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Phillipine Invasion Unnec

>  Maybe Luzon would have become a staging place for invading Japan =IF=
>there had been no A-bomb and =IF= the Russians hadn't entered and =IF=
>Truman had ordered a bloodbath at the end of a war and =IF= the Japanese had
>not surrendered anyway as they were desperately trying to do.  A lot of
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Huh? Didn't we just go through a big discussion on how Japan was NOT trying
to surrender in the least?

"I was a precocious child and obviously destined to be a scientist."

        Dr. Julian "a tribble took it" Gomez
        Apple Computer, Inc.  408/862-1289 or 996-1010
        [email-masked]  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 14:51:10 -0400
From:    "David a. Vandenbroucke" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: USS Langley (CV-1)

Jorge, there was a long thread about this a few months ago.  The Langley
was sunk in the first few months of the war while ferrying planes to
Indonesia.

--Dav Vandenbroucke
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 15:00:13 EDT
From:    Patrick D Marsden <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: M-1 Garand cartridge

>
> Did the Garand ever use the .308 as well?
>
> Jesse Carnes
>

A later development, the M-1A was chambered for the
.308 (NATO 7.62mm).  This weapon was outwardly
similar to the M-14 and accepted a 20round detachable
box magazine as opposed to the 8 round clips the Garand
used.  It didn't make it into WWII.  I believe the M1
Garand was only produced in .30-06 (fairly certain, references
are packed for a move this weekend).

With regards to the Garand, a conservative radio personality
which hails from D.C. comments that, "with the M1 Garand and
the .30-06 cartridge, you can really reach out and touch
someone!"  After shooting one a few months ago, I tend to agree.

patrick
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 13:58:12 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP:Scwerer Gustav

Hello, Steve!

I will post this info later on today. Sorry that I haven't done so
earlier, but have been swamped. More later. I intend to answer all
questions regarding this weapon.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 14:46:40 -0400
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Triv: General Doolittle (was Re: VET: Locating Veterans)

Just for interest, Gen. Doolittle's citation reads as follows:

For conspicuous leadership above the call of duty, involving personal
valor and intrepidity at an extreme hazard to life. With the apparent
certainty of being forced to land in enemy territory or to perish at sea,
Gen. Doolittle personally led a squadron of Army bombers, manned by
volunteer crews, in a highly destructive raid on the Japanese mainland.

Taken from _The Congressional Medal of Honor Library: World War II_
without permission.

David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 14:44:59 EST
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: M-1 Garand cartridge

I am fuzzy about what happened after the war, but it seems to me that
it use the .308 for a short period, eventually emerging as what we
came to know as the M-14 which did use the .308.
*****************************************************
(Roger) Brad Coon             The right to defend
[email-masked]          one's self and one's
[email-masked]    family against harm and
                              injustice is the most
                              basic civil right.

Proud to be a member of America's largest civil rights
group, the National Rifle Association.
******************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 12:56:38 -0700
From:    Jaimie Crafton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: M-1 Garand cartridge

You wrote:

>
>Did the Garandever use the .308 as well?
>
>
>Jesse Carnes
>
>

I'm not aware if it was ever produced in .308, but the replacement to the Garand
was the M-14/M1A in .308 caliber.  Both rifles are very similar in constuction.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 15:05:58 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: M-1 Garand cartridge

Hello, Jesse!

> Did the Garandever use the .308 as well?

No.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 15:08:43 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRIVIA: Czech army

Hello, Tim!

You might try "Munich: Prologue to Tragedy" by John Wheeler-Bennet
and Telford Taylor's book "Munich: The Price of Peace". Also,
Shirer's "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich".

Hope this helps.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 15:35:10 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Gustav Geraet

Hello, Dave and others interested in this topic!

Here goes with the combat history of this weapon.

                        Combat History

After its test-firing, the 80cm K(E) was shipped to the siege of
Sevastopol to make its first appearance in action. The order for
action at Sevastopol was given personally to the gun's unit
commander, Generalmajor (Dipl.-Ing.) R. Boehm, by Colonel-General
Franz Halder, the Chief of the German General Staff. During the siege
of Sevastopol, it fired 48 shells at 7 targets in 5 days of firing.
These shells caused immense damage to the Russian installations.
During the siege of Sevastopol, the gun was sited at Bakhchiraray and
one of its shells penetrated 100 feet of earth and 5 meters of
concrete to destroy an ammunition depot at Severnaya Bay.

The gun was then removed and sent to Leningrad, but before it could
be emplaced there, the Red Army began advancing and it was hastily
withdrawn. Its only other recorded other appearance, oddly enough,
was at Pruskov, 18 miles from Warsaw in Sepember 1944, from which
position it fired 30 rounds into Warsaw during the Polish uprising.

It then vanished completely never to be seen again. Three different
versions at to its fate have been published. One states that the 80cm
K(E) was returned to Essen and then cut up by the Allies, which is
not substantiated by the reports on the examination of the Essen
works after their capture; one avers that 2 wrecked equipments were
found in the Russian zone of Germany, and the last that it was found
in Bavaria by US Army troops; neither of which statements stands up
to critical examination. It can only be assumed that the railgun was
dismantled and scrapped some time in late 1944. When the Hillersleben
proving ground was examined in April 1945 by Allied technical
intelligence teams, a proof mounting and some ammo was found; no
other trace of this weapon has been ever been found.

                   Other Projects

Further projects involving this weapon were considered after its
successful debut at Sevastopol. It was intended to produce a 52cm gun
known as "Langer Gustav" to fit the same mounting; this was to fire a
1420 kg (3131 lb) projectile to a range of 110 km (68.35 miles), a
52/38cm sabot shell to 150 km (93.21 miles), or a 52/38cm rocket-
assisted sabot shell to 190km (118.06 miles). It was considered that
the gun would make a good cross-channel bombardment gun. Had this
ever been done, it would have given a large part of England a severe
shock: sited on Cap Griz Nez, the weapon would have commanded an arc
running from Portsmouth through Henley-on-Thames, Luton and Cambridge
to Loewestoft (though it is doubtful whether it would have fired more
than once before the inevitable air retaliation arrived). Indeed, it
may be that the prospect of attempting to conceal such a weapon was
enough to stop the plan. As an interim measure, designs were drawn up
for a Peenemuender Pfeilgeschoss (Peenemuender Arrow Shell) that
would be fired from the 80cm barrel (presumably smooth-bored); two
suggestions were an 80/32 cm model ranging to 140 km (86.99 miles) or
an 80/30.5cm model ranging to 160km (99.62 miles) but none of these
projects ever passed the planning stage.

                    Evaluation

After all is said and done, it has to be admitted that the 80cm K(E)
ws a gross waste of time, money, material and men. Far better results
would have been obtained had all the wasteful dissipation of raw
materials and time been put-for example-into another 5 or 6 38cm
Siegfried guns. But the Gustav Geraet nonetheless remains the largest
gun ever seen by the world (not the largest calibre) and is likely to
remain so.

    Tomorrow, I will post the specifications of this weapon to the
list.

Hope this has been of interest.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 15:37:19 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Island Hopping & the Phil

Hello, Jeff!

> It would seem that a small island with would be much easier to secure
> from hostile ground troops - if they were even there to begin with.

    That would depend on how long the occupying force had spent
fortifying the island(s). Consider Tarawa and Iwo Jima!

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 16:37:09 EDT
From:    Cassady Craft <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: USS Langley (CV-1)

Wasn't the 1st Langley sunk in the Philippines early in the war?  It was more
of a seaplane tender, really, than a true carrier in the tradition of Lex,
etc.

Cassady Craft
Department of Political Science
University of Georgia
e-mail [email-masked]
or
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 15:38:55 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Aftermath of Market Garden???

Hello, Jim!

> Market Garden was the one major battlefield defeat the Allies suffered in
> Western Europe after D-Day.

    It was Germany's last victory of the war, I might add, although I
know you are inferring this from your post

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 17:41:55 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: WAR PLAN YELLOW

Thanks, Ed. Ben

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 15:42:59 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: 50 Years Ago - 21-SEP-1944

Hello, John and others!

Referencing General Roosevelt's MoH. I will add the following to your
accurate post.

    "...awarded the decoration for personally accompanying his troops
into battle. He repeatedly led groups from the beach, over the
seawall and established them inland. He moved from one locality to
another, rallying them against the enemy...

    He thus substantially contributed to the successful establishment
of the beachhead in France."

    Hope this helps, and thank you.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 15:46:22 CDT
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re[2]: Air Tactics

AF Mission planning is not a precise art or science--support to the
mission really depends directly on the threat that is anticipated--if
the target appears to be softer--then smaller number of support planes
can be used and retasked for other missions--it really depends upon what
the threat and competing requirements are for other missions that
particular day.  TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 17:52:20 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRIV: AMERICAN HEL

The Marines and naval personnel at Midway the time of the attack there in June
1942 were also wearing the WWI helmets. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 17:52:24 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WAR PLAN YELLOW

May I respectfully recommend to Carl and other members of the list to read Ed
Miller's excellent, thorough, and well-documented book, "War Plan Orange." This
will be the classic text for War Plan Orange for a long time. No free
autographed copy required, Ed. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 13:56:28 -0800
From:    Yarbrough James L <[email-masked]>
Subject: FW: World War II Guide

This was forwarded to me from another net surfer.  Thought it might be of some
interest to members of the list.

Jim

[email-masked]

New rules adopted by the agency require me to state that all my opinions are
mine, not that anybody else would want them, and not to hold the State of
Oregon or anybody else responsible.
_______________________________________________________________________________

Princeton Library Publishes Guide to Collection of World War II
                         Records

Princeton, N.J. -- The vast collection of World War II materials
at Princeton University are recorded in a new 113-page volume
published by the university library.

Publication of "Princeton, Forward March!: A Guide to World War
II Records at Princeton" marks the completion of a year-long
project that successfully processed more than 600 feet of
records.  The author of the guide, Melissa A. Johnson, has also
prepared an exhibition on the university's role in the war, which
is now on display at the university's Seeley G. Mudd Library.

The book describes the library's 17 major collections, for which
guides were written as part of the project.  Johnson also
identifies an additional 105 sets of records with significant
war-related materials found in the university library's
Department of Rare Books and Special Collections.  In addition,
the guide lists more than 600 doctoral dissertations, master's
theses and senior theses written by Princeton students on various
aspects of the war.

One particular strength of the collection, as Johnson details in
her introduction to the volume, is the large assortment of
private propaganda and fund-raising material aimed at promoting
American entry into the war and successful prosecution after
entry.  Included here are materials prepared by such
organizations as the Committee to Defend America by Aiding the
Allies, Fight for Freedom, United China Relief and the Council on
Books in Wartime.

A second area of strength is material documenting the role played
by individuals in the military and economic spheres, including
Bernard Baruch, Ferdinand Eberstadt and James Forrestal, as well
as such organizations as Rubber Development Corp.

The library also holds records of many of the key figures in the
Council on Foreign Relations, which provided mobilization,
political refugees, postwar plans and Anglo-American relations.
Closer to home, the archives maintains considerable information
on the role Princeton played in the war effort and the changes
the war forced on the campus.

Supporting the project and guide were the library's John Foster
and Janet Avery Dulles Fund, the New Jersey Committee Copies of
the guide are being distributed free to all New Jersey colleges
and many public libraries, as well as to major academic libraries
throughout the country.  The public and other institutions may
obtain copies for $7 through the Mudd library at 65 Olden Street,
Princeton, NJ 08544.  Make checks payable to Princeton University
Libraries.  For more information, contact the Mudd Library at
(609) 258-6345 or e-mail [email-masked].

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 17:17:06 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA:Wartime Trauma

>From the DoD Newswire 22 September 1994

:OLD SOLDIERS MAY FADE AWAY BUT NOT THEIR TRAUMAS

    CAMBRIDGE, England, Sept 21  - Some World War Two veterans
are so traumatised by their experiences that they still cannot
function normally, British researchers said on Wednesday.
     Nigel Hunt and Ian Robbins of the University of Plymouth told a
conference of the British Psychological Society that traumatic
memories were as clear decades later as if the events had happened
just days before.
     "The most surprising thing is that there are still a lot of
people who come up with the same post-traumatic stress disorder
findings from World War Two as people with recent trauma," Hunt said
in an interview. "They don't fade."
     Hunt, who interviewed more than 700 World War Two and Korean War
veterans, said he found two distinct groups of people -- those who
remembered the trauma, and who were still disturbed, and those who had
happier memories.
     "People that don't seem to have any problems think about the
comradeship during the war -- meeting people, seeing new places," Hunt
said.
     "Those still displaying symptoms think about how horrible battle
is, about the fear, the fear for family at home...the fear of being
killed or, more particularly, being wounded."
     Those with better memories had not necessarily had an easier time
of it, Hunt added.
     Several men he had interviewed, all from the same paratroop
regiment, had endured 17 hours of heavy shelling by German tanks
against the Normandy village they were holding but none seem
traumatised by the memory.
     "They held together strongly as a unit," Hunt said. "Unit
cohesion has been a factor in the number of psychological casualties
experienced."
     Hunt said about 20 to 30 percent of the veterans he interviewed
reported psychological problems. Many were just resurfacing as the men
retired or became widowed.
     So far, Hunt said, it was impossible to predict who would be
traumatised by war and who would not.
     But Hunt said one group stood out as almost always showing
psychological problems -- those who had been held as prisoners of war
by the Japanese, who were notoriously cruel to prisoners.
     "Not even those held prisoners by the Germans showed such
stress," Hunt said.

======

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 17:18:52 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA:Bombers to Ukraine

>From the US Air Force News Service 21 September 1994

672.  U.S. bombers to visit Ukraine
     BARKSDALE AFB, La. (AFNS)-- American bombers will
touch down on Ukrainian soil for the first time since World War II
when U.S. Air Force B-52 and B-1 bombers and a KC-10 aerial
refueler visit Poltava AB, Ukraine, Sept. 22-26.
     Their arrival comes on the 50th anniversary of the last shuttle
bombing mission in World War II.  For the shuttle missions, U.S.
Army Air Forces B-17 bombers took off from air bases in southern
Italy and England, hit Nazi targets in Eastern Europe, and landed at
bases in Ukraine, including Poltava.  The bombers then hit more
targets on their return flights to Italy and England.  The shuttle
missions ran from June 2 to Sept. 22, 1944.
     The B-52 visiting Poltava is coming from the 2d Bomb Wing
here.  Fifty years ago the 2d Bomb Group was part of the first
shuttle mission June 2, dubbed "Operation Frantic."  The 2d Bomb
Wing is the only unit from Operation Frantic that still exists today.
     The KC-10 refueler is also coming from Barksdale.  Dyess
AFB, Texas, is sending a B-1 bomber.  Altogether, about 57
military members will make the trip.  They were scheduled to
leave the United States Sept. 21 and arrive at Poltava the next day.
     Joining the U.S. Air Force crews are some very special guests:
eight veterans of the first shuttle mission June 2, 1944.  The former
B-17 crewmembers were specially invited by Ukrainian veterans
who hosted them 50 years ago.
     During their visit, the American will join the city of Poltava
Sept. 23 in celebrating its "51st anniversary of our freedom from
fascism."  On Sept. 24 the B-52 and B-1 will be featured in an air
show commemorating the 50th anniversary of the shuttle bombing
missions.
     The visit is the first air force-to-air force exchange between the
U.S. and Ukrainian militaries.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 17:17:33 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: M-1 Garand

A couple of outlets for Garands: SOG Intl. has "tanker" Garands in both cals
discussed. Their # is (513) 932-8148 (Lebanon, Ohio) They are refurbished
guns with new barrels. (37.5" overall length)

KY Imports in Louisville, KY (502) 244-4400 has your std .30-06 Garand 80%
condition. (Overall NRA "Good" condition) $279 - Winchester mfg add $60.

If you want a better Garand buy, let me know; I can point to some select
weapons for less than $500, I'm sure. Try Navy Arms Co. (800) 669-6289.

The M-1 carbines are very numerous. Mausers (98,98K, etc) are also available
including some F.N.s.

-Al

Todays subliminal message is:

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 17:42:05 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: M-1 Garand cartridge

>
> Did the Garandever use the .308 as well?

The Navy converted a quite a few M1s to .308.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 17:49:18 EDT
From:    Brian Nicklas <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: USS Langley (CV-1)

Langley was straight flight deck.  Notable for the first rotary-wing
operations among other things.  Rotary wing a/c used was a Pitcairn
XOP-1 (Navy version of the civil PCA-2) autogiro.  Nice photo of
the Langley in Peter Brooks "Cierva Autogiros" with the XOP-1 on
deck.  No island or superstructure, just a straight deck.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 17:05:33 CDT
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: PELELIU

Dear Ben,

Please do keep an eye on the Enola Gay (fiasco?) And notes. At some point,
someone should do a history of the whole affair, with names. To the extent
you can comment, do you know if any of the following are consultants on
the project?

James Morley
James Crowley
Michael Barnhart
Akira Iriye
Asada Sadao
Richard Smethurst
William Morton

This is a "top-of-the-head" list of Japan specialists who have written on
prewar Japanese policy during the last 15-20 years. There are others,
especially those who contributed to the two volumes on Japan's colonial
empire that have appeared in the late 1980s or early '90's. I assume
one major influence was John Dower's "racism" thesis. Is the whole exhibit
out of that one book?

Thanks,

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 17:22:27 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRIVIA: Czech army

Given the attitude of England, France, and the United States, the Czechs
would have had their necks sticking way out.  While they probably could
slowed the Germans down, or even stopped them temporarily, the risk
of going ALONE was a great one.  And it appears that would have been
exactly the situation.

Incidentally, I guess the difference between western and middle and central
and eastern Europe depends on where you are sitting.

  =========================================================================
  | DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
  |                                  | Computers in Business & Education. |
  | Recently returned from my second | Education:  Curriculum development.|
  |   extended stay in Prague.       |    International Education, TEFL.  |
  | Working on second book about     | Central Europe:  Post revolution   |
  |   Prague and new Czech Republic  |    economic, social, political     |
  |   and a book about the B-25      |    problems and opportunities.     |
  |   in WWII.                       | B-25 in WWII.                      |
  | E-Mail:                          | Free lance writing and editing.    |
  |   USA:  [email-masked]    | Stamp collecting.                  |
  |         [email-masked] |                                    |
  =========================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 17:33:42 CDT
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRIVIA: Czech army

Be careful using Liddell-Hart as a source on Wehrmacht General Staff
attitudes. See John Mearsheimer's book on him, which came out about
four years ago, give-or-take.

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 16:39:05 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WAR PLAN YELLOW

ben...
        I seem to remember that there is a building at Quantico
named in Maj Ellis' honor. Cannot recall which one. Appreciate
you elucidating, if you would.
        I obtained a fine reprint of an article about Maj Ellis
from USMC about five years ago. A remarkable man.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 16:42:29 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Aftermath of Market Garden???

The Ardennes Breakthrough was not exactly a victory, either...

--

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 16:57:44 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRIV: American helmets

The British "tin hat" was actually modelled on the helmet worn by
archers in the Black Prince's army (500 years ago).
        The tin hat was to issued to British troops until early 1915,
so the Tommies fought for six months without any helmets.
        In the Second World War, about mid-way through, the British
did remodel their helmet to a degree, making it deeper, so that some more
protection was added. They still wear a similar model today.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 20:55:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 23 SEP 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
SATURDAY, 23 SEPTEMBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  F-6, North American Mustang
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 19 P-47s attack bridges along a
line Wanling-Bhamo-Myitkyina destroying 1 bridge; 6 B-25s hit bridges S of
Meza, destroying 1 and extensively damaging several others. In China, 19
B-24s fly fuel to Liuchow while 2 deliver fuel to Kunming.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 15 B-24s pound the Burma Road in
the Chefang area; 36 B-25s hit Chuanhsien and targets of opportunity in
surrounding areas; 6 B-25s bomb Kuanyang, 5 hit Yungming, 6 damage Dara
bridge, 12 bomb Lungling, and 2 knock out a bridge near Jinyang; 2 B-24s bomb
docks at Amoy; again 90+ P-40s and P-51s hit numerous targets of opportunity
throughout SE China concentrating on Japanese troops in the Chuanhsien area
and various targets around Jungyun, Yuankiang, Yungming, Lingling, and
Hsuchang.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 559 of 586 P-38s, P-47s and P-51s
bomb and strafe flak positions and other ground targets in 2 landing zones in
the Nijmegen, the Netherlands area, immediately preceding the arrival of the
remainder of the US 82d and 101st Airborne Divisions and the Polish 1st
Brigade; the P-38s are flown by Eighth and Ninth AF units; they engage 150+
Luftwaffe fighters; AAF claims 27-2-6 aircraft in the air; 4 P-47s and 10
P-51s are lost, 1 P-47 and 1 P-51 are damaged beyond repair and 25 P-47s and
10 P-51s are damaged; 1 pilot is WIA and 14 MIA. 162 B-24s fly a TRUCKIN'
mission to France delivering fuel.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): B-26s and A-20s sent against targets
in W Germany are recalled due to weather; fighters support the US First Army
in W Germany, US Third Army in the Chateau-Salins, France area, escort
bombers (recalled), and fly armed reconnaissance over wide areas of W
Germany. In France, HQ 36th Fighter Group and the 22d Fighter Squadron move
from Le Mans to Athis with P-47s; HQ 322d Bombardment Group (Medium) and the
450th and 451st Bombardment Squadron (Medium) move from Rougham, England to
Beauvais/Tille with B-26s; HQ 416th Bombardment Group (Light) and the 669th
and 671st Bombardment Squadron (Light) move from Wethersfield, England to
Melun with A-20s; the 412th Fighter Squadron, 373d Fighter Group, moves from
St-James to Reims with P-47s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 147 B-17s, escorted by 290
P-38s and P-51s bomb the Brux, Czechoslovakia synthetic oil refinery and the
marshalling yard at Wels, Austria. 229 B-24s attack communications targets in
Italy, including a viaduct at Venzone and road and railroad bridges at
Casarsa della Delizia, Pinzano al Tagliamento, Ponte di Piave, Latisana, San
Dona di Piave, and Susegana.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): Although several missions are
aborted because of bad weather in Italy, medium bombers attack several
railroad bridges in the Po River Valley; fighter-bombers hit guns and rail
and road targets in the battle area as the US Fifth Army pushes on through
the Gothic Line defenses. In France, the detachment of the 23d Photographic
Reconnaissance Squadron, 5th Photographic Reconnaissance Group [attached to
3d Photographic Group (Reconnaissance)], moves from Satolas-et-Bonce to Dijon
with F-5s (squadron is based at Valence); the 111th Tactical Reconnaissance
Squadron, XII Tactical Air Command, moves from Satolas-et-Bonce to Dijon with
F-6s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 15 B-24s from Saipan Island bomb Chichi Jima,
Haha Jima, and Ani Jima Islands, Bonin Islands. 2 B-24s on armed
reconnaissance bomb Marcus Island while 1 on a training mission hits Pagan
Island. On the night of 23/24 Sep a B-24 from Kwajalein Atoll, Marshall
Islands bombs Wake Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: During night and
day raids B-24s and B-25s concentrate on Sidate and Mapanget Airfields on
Celebes Island. P-47s pound Kaoe Airfield on Halmahera Island. In New Guinea,
P-47s and P-40s bomb AA guns at Manokwari, Moemi, and Ransiki Airfields; HQ
Thirteenth Air Force moves from Hollandia to Noemfoor Island; the 460th
Fighter Squadron, 348th Fighter Group, moves from Nadzab to Noemfoor Island
with P-47s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

23/0057Z SEP

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 21:12:33 EDT
From:    Cassady Craft <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WAR PLAN YELLOW

May I give a hearty second to Ben's recommendation that you read _War Plan
Orange_.  Ed, I'll send you my copy if you'll autograph it!
By the way, what may I ask is the follow-up...or what are you working on
next?

Cassady Craft
Department of Political Science
University of Georgia
e-mail [email-masked]
or
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 21:15:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: USS Bunker Hill (CV-17)

 >Hello Jack,
 >
 >Thanks for the info about USS Franklin. It would be also interesting to
 >hear about USS Bunker Hill (CV-17). If you have some info about her, please
 >could you post it to the list?
 >
 >Thanks, and have a nice day,
 >
 >Jorge Merino

The keel of the Essex Class aircraft carrier BUNKER HILL (CV-17) was
laid down 15 Sep 41; she was launched on 7 Dec 42 and commissioned 25
May 43.  USS Bunker Hill participated in campaigns for Bougainville
Island, the Gilbert Islands, Kwajalein Atoll, the Truk Atoll raid,
Hollandia, New Guinea, the Mariana Islands, Palau Island, Leyte,
Iwo Jima and Pacific raids between 1943 and 1945.  She was severely
damaged by a Kamikaze off Okinawa Island on 11 Apr 45 which killed
346, 43 MIA and 264 WIA.  She made it back to the West Coast and
was repaired and participated in MAGIC CARPET operations in Sep 45.
BUNKER HILL was decommissioned on 9 Jul 47, redesignated an Attack
Aircraft Carrier (CVA-17) on 1 Oct 52, an Antisubmarine Warfare
Support Carrier (CVS-17) on 8 Aug 53, and an Auxiliary Aircraft
Tansport (AVT-9) on 15 May 59.  Her name was struck from the Navy
List on 1 Nov 66 but she war retained as a moored electronics ship
at San Diego, California until she was sold in Nov 73.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 21:44:13 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: PELELIU

Henry, we are keeping on top of it as best we can. Martin Harwit sent the Board
of Advisors to the Air and Space Museum copies of the latest script with a
request for a review. I have also received a copy with a request from the
exhibit curator, Michael Neufeld, for my comments. There was a bit on the ABC
news the other night about the Enola Gay exhibit and a commentary from Gar
Alperovitz stating that the statistics were all wrong and that he found
documents to indicate that the estimated losses were no more than 46,000, that
dropping the bomb on Japan was a racist act, and that it was done more to
impress Stalin than to subdue the Japanese. As I have said some time ago on one
of the BBDs, as a veteran of two major landings in the Pacific, Peleliu and
Okinawa, and a survivor, I feel certain that I and many other soldiers and
Marines would never have survived the landings on Japan. Paul Fussell wrote
some time ago--and he was in the Pacific, also--"Thank God they dropped the
bomb." To hell with all the revisionists of Alperovitz' ilk. I'm glad they
dropped the bomb also. To answer one of the questions you raised, insofar as I
know, none of the experts on Japan you mentioned were involved with the scripts
(this is the third one I have to review), or with the exhibit in any way. To
allay all the criticism that has come its way, the Museum is mounting an
auxiliary exhibit, "The War in the Pacific," which will be outside of the Enola
Gay exhibit and which visitors will have to pass through and see before they
enter the primary exhibit. At this point, because of all the controversy and
slanted photos and captions re/Enola Gay, the exhibit should be scrapped. We'll
see. The battle is not yet over. The whole exhibit is not out of Dower's book,
I feel, but it is as revisionist. At the end of it all, you wonder who won the
war, and why did we do all those bad things. Space does not permit me to blow
off all the steam I have generated about this exhibit. Instead of feeling good
about defeating a bad power who caused the rape of Nanking, the Bataan Death
March, the mistreatment of prisoners, medical experiments on prisoners, and
launched a sneak attack on a power with which it was carrying on diplomatic
relations in an effort to avoid war, it is the United States which is at fault. Not so. Regards, Ben

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 22:28:10 EDT
From:    Cassady Craft <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: PELELIU

Ben, Let us know on this list if we can do anything about the Enola Gay
and War in the Pacific exhibits,i.e write letters, calls, e-mails, faxes,
etc.  I know some of the A/S museum guys who hang out on the Aerospace
list--where there has been very little discussion of this--that I will
raise the point with privately.

Cassady Craft
Department of Political Science
University of Georgia
e-mail [email-masked]
or
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 22 Sep 1994 22:04:56 -0500
From:    "Jeff J. Dingbaum" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Island Hopping & the Phil

Hi Terry,

On Thu, 22 Sep 1994, Robert T. Moore wrote:

> Hello, Jeff!
>
> > It would seem that a small island with would be much easier to secure
> > from hostile ground troops - if they were even there to begin with.
>
>     That would depend on how long the occupying force had spent
> fortifying the island(s). Consider Tarawa and Iwo Jima!

I admit that I know very little about the operations of the area.  It
just seemed to me that you could possibly find a small island without
anyone on it to use for an airbase.  Maybe that is a stupid assumption,
since that's what everyone would think, thus occupying most all of the
islands with some kind of force.

Jeff

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 21 Sep 1994 to 22 Sep 1994
*************************************************