Subject: WWII-L Digest - 27 Sep 1994 to 28 Sep 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 1994 00:02:34 -0400

There are 36 messages totalling 1244 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Peleliu
  2. POL:revisionism
  3. INF: 50 Years Ago - 29-SEP-1944
  4. POL: HIROSHIMA (5)
  5. Gustav Geraet (2)
  6. 865th Avia. Eng. Battalion
  7. Report: 50th MARKET-GARDEN (4)
  8. INF: USN Chronology 09-28-94
  9. WEAP:aircraft comparisons
 10. Lufberry Circle (4)
 11. MEDIA: Radio Memory (3)
 12. SET WWII-L MAIL
 13. Warsaw Uprising
 14. Untold Stories f/ABTF, Pt. 1
 15. How many bridges too far?
 16. Downfall
 17. TRIVIA:Czech Army (2)
 18. POL:Hiroshima (2)
 19. [INF] USAAF 29 SEP 44
 20. TAC: WAR PLAN ORANGE
 21. MEDIA: RADIO MEMOR

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 28 Sep 1994 02:19:14 EST
From:    "CARL WERNKE (TCWERNC@VCCSCENT)" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Peleliu

 To: Multiple recipients of list WWII-L([email-masked])
 In-Reply-To: Danny G.Cox at Sun, 18 Sep 1994 16:20:28 -0500

 Danny Cox wrote:
 > Didn't President Roosevelt meet with MacArthur, and Nimitz, at which time
 > both presented their strategy about thePhilippines. MacArthur wanted to
 > retake them & Nimitz wanting to skip over.

 As early as November, 1944, the Joint Staff Planners had been working on
 Downfall, the plan for the invasion of Japan. Late that month the JCS
 tentatively approved their planning draft for Operation Olympic, the
 assault on Kyushu,to begin September 1, 1945, and Operation Coronet, the
 invasion of Honshu, to be launched December 1,1945. THe campaigns on Leyte,
 Luzon, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa. Each lasted far longer than anticipated, so
 that by spring 1945, the JCS realized that Olympic and Coronet would have to
  be postponed, if they were conducted at all.

 At Manila in mid-May MacArthur and Nimitz reached agreement on the broad
 principles for Olympic and submitted their proposals to the Joint Chiefs.
 The directive for Olympic was issued by the Joint Chiefs on May 25, setting
 their target date for November 1 and giving MacArthur thechief responsibility
for the entire operation, including control, under certain exigencies, of the
 ambhibious assault through the appropriate naval commander. He was also
 directed to make plans and preparations for Coronet in cooperation with
 Nimitz. The naval and amphibious phases of Olympic were assigned to Nimitz.
 MacArthur and his planners in Manila immediately set to work on the
 operational details of Olympic.

 President Roosevelt died on April 12, 1945.

 Sorry for the late response, PC problems.

 Excerpts obtained from _The Years of MacArthur_, Volume Two 1941-1945, by
 D. Clayton James, 1975, Houghton Mifflin, Co.

 Carl Wernke
 [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 28 Sep 1994 11:08:57 +0200
From:    "A.Bouis" <[email-masked]>
Subject: POL:revisionism

Ben writes :
"Arnaud, thanks for your comments, and I agree wholeheatedly with you that revisionist historians, most of whom are of a leftward leaning bent, are to be..."
Sorry, I think this was a misunderstanding : Please believe I have not written this, and not indulged in politics.
Actually in Europe most if not all known "revisionists" are right-wing extremists.

Sincerely,
Arnaud.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 28 Sep 1994 04:44:51 -0700
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 29-SEP-1944

On 29-SEP-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Eastern Front - Units of the Russian Eighth Army land on Muhu Island in the
Baltic.

Italian Front - Two German SS regiments begin reprisals against the Italian
resistance at Marzabotto, in the foothills of the Arpennines. Within a couple
of days the Germans kill 1,836 civilians.

Peleliu - The 7th Marines are replaced by units of the 321st Infantry in the
attack on Mount Umurbrogol.

Angaur - The Japanese are forced out of the center of the Lake Salome area.
They are pushed to the extreme northwest of the island.

Burma/China - Construction of a road between Myitkyina, Teng-chung and Kumming
is begun.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "Facts On File Yearbook 1944,
Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 28 Sep 1994 08:10:19 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: POL: HIROSHIMA

On Mon, 26 Sep 1994 22:59:15 -0400 Ben Frank said:
>Arnaud, thanks for your comments, and I agree wholeheartedly with you that
>revisionist historians, most of whom are of a leftward leaning bent, are to be
>criticized severely and their works looked at very closely, because I don't
>trust their statistics or conclusions. Ben Frank

"Most"?  My, that's a rather sweeping statement--you *do* have some statistics
to back it up, I assume?  (-:

In fact, though, the supposed bent of an historian is not relevant to the
quality of the reasoning nor of the evidence adduced:  those items stand on
their own merits.  An assertion otherwise is little more than an ad hominem
attack.

As for severely criticizing any historian--well, surely the *first* generation
to look at a question should be the most severely criticized; that's the one
with the *least* access to the evidence & generally the *least* amount of
reflection on it.  It's the later generations that attempt to synthesize a
more complete view.

ken koester
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 28 Sep 1994 08:22:17 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: POL: HIROSHIMA

At the risk of further degeneration of a fine relationship between such
intelligent and scholarly persons as are on this list, I'd just like
to point out that neither the far right nor the far left has a lock on
virtue.

Whilst everymajor action requires some time to become assimilated into
history, it is not necessary to wait till after the trail goes cold before
forming the interpretation of a historic event.

History has been rewritten many times in the past, and will continue to be.
Every generation changes the focus and viewpoint of the history they chose
to learn from.

Neither right nor wrong, just the way it has ever been and ever shall be.

Please, gentlemen, ladies, whatever, we all respect each other's opinions,
right?

                                                        ;-)Steve

(Thanx for letting this in, Joe, I've been good lately)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - [email-masked] |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 28 Sep 1994 08:24:54 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: POL: HIROSHIMA

On Tue, 27 Sep 1994 01:33:16 EDT Cassady Craft said:
>What I want to know is what the listleute from Germany (and Europe) think
>about the German atomic bomb project and that most controversial figure (or
>should I say "uncertain"), Werner Heisenberg.  There is some controversy in
>the historical scholarship as to whether Heisenburg was a bumbling Nazi
>who couldn't build the bomb,or if he was an incredible humanitarian who didn't
>build the bomb--and tried to make a deal with the Americans during the war for
>no one to build it.

Well, I'm not a "Listleute", but that won't stop me (-:  I don't think I could
take seriously any historian who concluded that Heisenberg was a bumbler--he
was one of the most important & original physicists of the century.  The
problem was that he was a theoretical physicist & after 1938 the bomb project-
to-be became much more an engineering project than a theoretical physics one.
In fact, the job of producing sufficient fissionables was more difficult than
actually designing the bomb.

>. . . . Heisenberg, while being
>kept "at the Queen's discretion" after the war, when told of the blast yeild
>of the Hiroshima bomb, immediately told another physicist that the core would
>have to be the size of a grapefruit and later that night, held a seminar in
>which he practically designed the entire weapon.  If so, he was no bumbling
>fool--and it stretches the crediblity to think he was a bumbling physicist.

There's a recent book, reviewed in =Science= in '93, dealing with the whole
question yet again which strongly disputes this story.  Heisenberg actually
calculated the core as being on the order of tons of fissionables--there
were several key aspects of the problem he hadn't discovered yet.  Sorry,
don't have that issue any longer, but HPS history types will probably know
the book.  The point, of course, is that Heisenberg didn't "go limp" out of
a desire to hinder the Nazis, and that he wasn't a bumbler, either--but that
the German project hadn't gone in the right direction and probably would
never have succeeded.

ken koester
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 28 Sep 1994 07:29:00 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Gustav Geraet

Hello, Akira!

Thanks for your note and will try to answer your question.

> One trivia about _Dora_ is why it was called Dora.  One of my sources say
> that it is named after the wife of the designer (Erich Mueller).  Taube
> says that it is a short form of "Donner und Doria".  Which is correct?

    I can find no reference in my library of any mention of the
Gustav Geraet being named for the wife of the designer or the
combination of "Donner and Doria". My sources state, and I cite Ian
V. Hogg in "German Artillery of World War Two" who states the the
"gun was named Dora by the gun crew".

    I know this isn't of much assistance, but that is all that I have
on this subject.

    Thanks again for the note, and hope you are well.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 28 Sep 1994 07:40:52 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 865th Avia. Eng. Battalion

Hello, Bill!

Here goes with the info I could find on the 865th Engineer Aviation
Battalion

The 865th Engineer Aviation Battalion was formed on 1 Feb 1943 at
Davis-Monthan Field, Arizona and was active through 1946. It departed
the US at the San Francisco Port of Entry on 23 Oct 1943 and arrived
in Australia on 13 Nov 1943. The Battalion then moved to New Guinea
on 7 Dec 1943. Then to the Philippines on 24 Oct 1944. It
participated in the Leyte Gulf operation, the New Guinea and Southern
Philippines area campaigns. It was located at Macajalar Bay,
Philippines in August 1945.

This is all I could find, and I wish I could send more. However, I
hope it has been of interest.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 28 Sep 1994 09:34:13 EDT
From:    Doug McCabe <[email-masked]>
Subject: Report: 50th MARKET-GARDEN

                   Ohio University Electronic Communication

   Date:  28-Sep-1994 09:33am EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"[email-masked]" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject:  Report: 50th MARKET-GARDEN

    All,
         Our exhibits, "Untold Stories from _A Bridge Too Far_," appear to
    have been a great success in the Netherlands in spite of a few
    surprises, illness, and two solid weeks of rain.  I set up a smallish,
    six panel display at the Liberation 1944 Museum in Groesbeek (near
    Nijmegen) which concentrated on the doings of Dutch civilians, German
    soldiers, and the 82nd AB Div.  Another small, six panel display was
    put in at the Airborne Museum in the former Hartenstein Hotel (British
    1st AB Div. headquarters) in Oosterbeek (near Arnhem) where we used
    material from British and Polish paras, Dutch civilians, and Germans.
    The full-size exhibit (20 panels) was at "Open Huis" in the city hall
    of Nijmegen and used material from local Dutch civilians, and British,
    American, and German soldiers.  Themes in all three exhibits included
    "Dutch Reactions" to liberation, American impressions of Holland and
    the Dutch, humorous and tragic stories, and stories from the German
    point of view.  In Nijmegen (where I could do more extensive things)
    were panels on the 82nd AB's boat assult over the Waal River and the
    taking of the two bridges in Nijmegen - an incredible feat of arms -
    the controversy over who actually saved the road bridge (they still
    argue whether it was Jan van Hoof, the British, or the Americans),
    controversial comments by Montgomery, Prince Bernard, and Eisenhower
    about the operation, and several very enlarged photos including a dead
    American and a dead German.
         Friday the 9th was the official opening day of the exhibits and
    Victoria Bida nee Ryan, daughter of Cornelius Ryan, did the honors
    before the international press.  The day began at the Liberation 1944
    Museum where Vicky opened the exhibit before rushing off to the
    Airborne Museum in Oosterbeek and a special visit with Jan ter Horst
    (Kate was killed two years ago by an out of control auto) whom she had
    met when her father interviewed Jan and Kate for the book.  While she
    was doing that I got a ride back to Nijmegen in a restored halftrack.
    Then everyone met at Open Huis for the opening and awards of lapel pins
    to a collegue and myself for research we had done on the accidental
    bombing of Nijmegen in Feb. 1944.  The Netherlands Broadcasting Corp.
    did two very nice stories on the opening (so I'm told since I missed
    them) and we picked up some nice stories in several newspapers.
         Then it was a couple of days in Amsterdam for intellectual
    stimulation in museums and moral outrage in the Red Light District.
         Back on the road, we went to Maastrict and Margreten.  Maastrict
    was the first Dutch city liberated by the Allies and there we attended
    a ceremony/memorial service at the Catholic cathedral.  Then we went to
    the American Cemetery to lay flowers on the grave of Bernard Tom (101st
    AB KIA and Athens, OH native), photograph the name of Dennis Sparks'
    great uncle who is listed on the MIA wall, and attend the carilon (sp?)
    dedication sponsored by AMVETS.  This was all in the pouring rain from
    which I probably caught the 24-hour flu the next day, followed by a
    head cold.
         We finally got back to the Nijmegen/Arnhem area (still in the
    rain) to tour our own delegation through our exhibits on Friday, the
    16th, and, because the weather got even worse, we did not go to the
    events on Saturday, the 17th.  I understand the 82nd AB did not do a
    para drop (but the Dutch Marines did) and many of the other scheduled
    events were delayed or cancelled.
         On Sunday, the 18th, it cleared up enough for the commemorative
    crossing of the Waal in DUWK's and the ceremony at the monument on the
    other side of the river at Lent.  There were supposed to be 17 DUWK's
    in the crossing, filled with 82nd vets, but only two were there to make
    the crossing.  All the others were still stuck in the Corridor at
    Grave: typical, said all the vets who waited for canvas-sided boats
    fifth years ago.  The only two non-vets on the DUWK's were Tom Ryan,
    nephew of John (Jack) R. Towle - the only Congressional Medal of Honor
    awardee - and Adrie Nab of Ohio University.  The crossing and the
    following memorial service at the monument were very emotional and
    included the unveiling of the revised stone with the list of 82nd KIA's
    in the crossing.  The stone was revised because of our request that
    the letters "CMOH" be added beside Towle's name.  After the ceremony,
    all went to Fort Lent for a reception.  Later that evening there was to
    be a concert and ceremony at the stadium in Nijmegen but, since it was
    still pouring rain, we elected to pass it up.  We also did not attend
    any of the events in the Arnhem area so I cannot give first hand
    accounts of those.
         All in all, the uncooperative weather greatly dampened the
    celebrations (Nijmegen and south) and commemorations (Arnhem area).
    ---------------------------
    To Cassady Craft et.al. - re: the Dutch military officer telling
    British officers after the battle they would have failed the exam by
    taking the Hell's Highway road as they did in MARKET-GARDEN.  Yes, that
    story was in _A Bridge Too Far_.  Unfortunately, Ryan did not use
    footnotes in his books but, since we have all his research material
    here in the archives, I can provide a full quote and citation if you
    wish.
    ---------------------------
    To Sidney Allison et.al. - re: "Theirs Is the Glory" film on
    MARKET-GARDEN using actual vets.  It is not out of print but available
    on video.  Anyone wishing to get a copy can contact the Airborne Museum
    "Hartenstein," Utrechtseweg 232, 6862 AZ Oosterbeek, The Netherlands.
    It's probably best to send to the attention of Adrain Groeneweg,
    Vice-Chairman of the Board.  I do not remember to cost of the tape: I
    do remember it is available in PAL and VHS and, I think, in English and
    Dutch.  If you wish to call and inquire first the phone number is 31
    (country code) 80 - 33 77 10.
    ---------------------------
    To Emery Ford et.al. - re: a daily synopsis of MARKET-GARDEN.  The best
    I know (surprise) is _A Bridge Too Far_ for it is still the only book
    I'm aware of that covers the whole operation and not just the Arnhem
    battle, or the Nijmegen bridge, etc.  If you can't find a copy of the
    book in a used book store, local or regional library, or through
    inter-library loan, wait until this spring: Simon and Schuster just
    told us two days ago they will reprint _ABTF_ and _The Last Battle_ for
    release on the 50th anniversary of VE Day.
    ----------------------------
    I would be happy, as long as you all are interested and Joe doesn't
    object, to periodically post stories from "Untold Stories from _A
    Bridge Too Far_.  All are exact quotes from vets and civilians who were
    there and, like John Ausland's letters, return a human-ness to the
    inhumanity of war.

    Later,
    Doug
    [email-masked]

Received:  28-Sep-1994 09:33am

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 28 Sep 1994 06:43:30 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 09-28-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
09/28 Thu. Marines occupy Ngesebus and Kongauru Islands in the
           Palau Islands, under cover of naval aircraft and
           gunfire support.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 28 Sep 1994 16:10:34 +0200
From:    "A.Bouis" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP:aircraft comparisons

Following Emmanuel's mail, I highly recommend reading Captain Eric Brown's book on aviation (or rather, one of those he wrote), "Duels in the Sky". Eric Brown holds the World record for the number of military aircraft flown (over 300 if I am not wrong) and carrier landings. He was the top British test pilot during the war and evaluated all captured planes.
His book mainly evaluates hypothetical dogfights between fighters that never met, with an emphasis on naval fighters, and is full of opinions on fighter aircraft.
It is currently available in British bookshops (I might check the publisher in my home copy).
However you won't find an opinion on most jet aircraft, the book is only concerned with WWII.

Arnaud

P.S. If I am not wrong some Corsairs/possibly Hellcats met Fw190s and Me109's in combat, During Dragoon in 1944. Does anyone know of other odd fighter encounters during WWII ?

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 28 Sep 1994 10:22:53 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <[email-masked]>
Subject: Lufberry Circle

Can someone confirm the spelling of Lufberry?  I have seen it on the list
spelled at least three ways...

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 28 Sep 1994 12:26:03 EDT
From:    Cassady Craft <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Lufberry Circle

Ok, since my foot is in my mouth, this is what I meant.  When speaking of
a high speed diving attack, I was thinking more of the tactics used by
Chenault and the AVG than the actual circumstances under which the Thach
Weave was conceived.

If I had know John Lundstrom was on the list, I would have asked the following
question in addition to my hasty comments earlier.  In _The First Team in
the Guadalcanal Campaign_ (everyone needs a copy of this and _The First
Team_), the most surprising facet of this excellent history is that John
states that the Japanese, contrary to popular conception, were not dogfighters,
but cites amply cases of them pulling out of diving attacks in front of
American guns as evidence that they were utilizing diving passes.  I don't
have my book with me, so I couldn't look up the particulars, but I was
wondering; could you tell me the experience level of the pilots shot down
in this fashion?  I know that the Zero had aerilon problems in dives, and was
wondering if it could be that these pilots were just inexperienced, and having
mechanical problems with their bodies in trying to fly the aircraft.  You
probably tell this information in the book, but I can't remember.  But I do
remember Sakai's stories from the pre-war training and during the war, and
he was firm in his belief that they were taught to dogfight, and couldn't
understand the American tactics when faced with dive and run by the F4F-4s
over 'Canal.

Thanks for any information, I appreciate it.  By the way, What is next on the
John Lundstrom agenda?  Continuing with carrier aviation in the war, or are
you daunted by the prospect of covering more than 3 carriers groups at a time
(with good reason--my hat is off to you as it is!)?! 8)

Cassady Craft
Department of Political Science
University of Georgia
e-mail [email-masked]
or
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 28 Sep 1994 12:01:48 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: POL: HIROSHIMA

Ben:

There is a difference between "commonly accepted 'facts'" and "proven
facts."  We commonly accept facts that aren't -- particularly when they
support our biases.

I make this statement in the interest of good scholarhship, whatever
the application.

George Bauer
U.S.A.:  [email-masked]
         [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 28 Sep 1994 13:06:27 EDT
From:    Jim Bowman <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Radio Memory

I interpreted the landings at somalia as the military using the media,  they
let themselves be filmed to put the tear of god into the opposition.

WWII a lot of the news releases were recorded on huge lacquer disks (18 in
dia, I think) which were copied and air freighted from New York to various
affiliates.  After use they were destroyed per CBS regs except for master
copies at the home office.  In the fifties, with all the bucks going to TV,
some flunkie at CBS destroyed the bulk of the old disk recordings from the
war "yesterday's news" so to speak.  Luckily, a technician at the CBS
affiliate in Seatle (my fair city) kept as many disks as he could in the
transmitter shack on Harbor Island, our industrial area.  They were located
in the '60's and are now at the University of Washington.  This info is from
my memory of a broadcast during the stations anniversary show a couple of
years ago.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 28 Sep 1994 10:07:52 -0700
From:    Jim Benn <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Report: 50th MARKET-GARDEN

Thanks for the great report.  I'm leaving 10/1/94 for a month's trip to
Europe, and I will be visiting the museums you mentioned; hope your
displays are still there.
I'm pretty well set for WWII sites to visit in the Normandy and Holland
areas (plus normal tourist stuff with my wife), but I'd be interested in
any recommendations/info on the following:

1.  Rommel's HQ at La Roche Guyon: is this a place which can be visited,
on is it a private estate?  Anybody know if there is a museum or anything
connected to it?

2.  Battle of the Bulge: I'm looking for sites and museums.  I assume
there will be something in Bastogne.

3.  Eban Emale (sp?):  Does the fort still exist, and can it be visited?

4.  Paris:  we're doing the usual tourist stuff in paris for 4 days; any WWI
    sites to visit there?

Thanks in advance for the info. I've been looking forward to this trip
for a while, and the content of this list has helped a lot to mentally
prepare me.  In between drinking German beer and French wine, I'll think
of you all as I visit these sites.

 *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*> Jim Benn  [[email-masked]] <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=*
 |-=[        Auto-Graphics, Inc.       ]=[      /~~)       /~~)           ]=-|
 |-=[        8 West Main Street        ]=[     (__(_UTO - (__/RAPHICS     ]=-|
 |-=[        Niantic, CT  06357        ]=[              .___/             ]=-|
 *=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*>  PHONE: 800-733-6939 = FAX: 203-691-0183  <*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=*

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 28 Sep 1994 13:26:59 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: SET WWII-L MAIL

     SET MAIL

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 28 Sep 1994 13:38:18 -0500
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Lufberry Circle

Wow, a rare opportunity to address two threads on the list with one post!

        Not only the Japanese but the Soviets made fairly widespread use of the
"Lufberry cirle" as a defensive tactic during the war (due, in the Russian
case, to the low level of training prevalent among many of their pilots during
the Second World War-- the Soviets were turning out planes-- 1,500 a month by
1943-- a lot faster than they could adequately train pilots to fly them).  In
fact, in February 1945, German ace Otto Kittel (credited with 267 victories,
fourth among Luftwaffe aces and all pilots in the war) was attempting to break
into a Lufberry circle of Il-2 Sturmovik's when his fighter was hit by a 23-mm
cannon round from the plane behind his intended victim.  The round apparently
struck flush in the cockpit, Kittel was probably killed instantly, and his
plane went down with him still aboard.  This could be cited as a successful
example of how the tactic worked when it did work.  Although the Soviet 23-mm
doesn't rank up there with some of the big boys I've seen referred to on the
list in terms of aircraft cannon, it was still a pretty powerful piece of
ordinance, if I remember correctly purpose-built as an aircraft-mounted
antitank weapon.  The Il-2 Sturmovik ground attack planes commonly mounted this
gun during the second half of the war.

PS #1:  In response to the question about the 800-mm "Dora" taking out a Soivet
ammo dump at Sebastopol in '42, sorry, but I don't know if it was good shooting
or just luck-- I would guess the latter but I'm just guessing.

PS#2:  In my recent readings I've come across what I think is the right answer
to a trivia question on this list about six months ago.  The question was "what
was the first landing of tanks in an opposed amphibious operation?" or
something like that, and someone posted an excellent concise account of the
landing of several Churchill tanks to support the Dieppe raid, which I thought
was the correct answer.  However, I recently saw a reference to the Allied
landings at Bjerkvik, Norway (about 10 miles north of Narvik) on April 13, 1940
(more than two years before Dieppe) which mentioned that this was the first use
in the war of specialized tank landing craft.  The tanks were French two-man
types, I've seen a couple of photos but was unable to tell if they were the
Renault R35 or the Hotchkiss H35 (definitely one of those).

Regards

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 28 Sep 1994 12:44:19 -0500
From:    Jon Stevens <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Warsaw Uprising

I attended the Warsaw Uprising this monday and have learned alot.  I will
review my notes and put a few interesting facts and new findings on the
list in the next couple of days.

One participant of the conference, Dr. M.K. Dziewanowski of the U.of
Wisconson, discussed the the Soviet refusal to advance on Warsaw in late
summer 1944 and assist the Home Army.  He stated that from his research
he has found that the Soviet causualties were much higher than official
figures. (suprise!)  He claims that insteads of around 100,000 Russian
killed from Jan. 1945 to April 1945 the correct figure is 500,000 killed
at least.  If the Soviets had advanced in summer 1944 across the Vistula
he thinks that the Soviets might have ended the war or captured Berlin in
1944 because the Germans had not organized much of a defence in Aug. 1944.

What do listmembers think about the figures and chance for Soviet advance
into Germany in 1944?

Jon Stevens -- [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 28 Sep 1994 14:40:07 EDT
From:    Doug McCabe <[email-masked]>
Subject: Untold Stories f/ABTF, Pt. 1

                   Ohio University Electronic Communication

   Date:  28-Sep-1994 02:07pm EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"[email-masked]" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject:  Untold Stories f/ABTF, Pt. 1

    Maybe a little humor to start things off:

         "In one particular hot rush across an open field the bullets were
    whizzing around us so persistantly that yours truly was forced to dive
    into a nearby hole until things quieted down a bit.  Evidently I was
    not the only one who perceived that hole for just as I made a lunge for
    it two forms slid underneath me and I found myself the third layer of
    humanity in a foxhole for one.  My rear was sticking up what seemed
    yards above the top of the hole.  On the bottom was some poor GI who
    was practically smothered and kept working to get up, an act which wild
    horses couldn't have forced me to do.  Next came the Major [Cook] and
    then I.  The Major and I couldn't help but laugh at the situation.
    When the bullets stopped whizzing past my fanny with such regularity I
    deemed it safe to continue our interrupted rush.  I passed the word
    down to the depts of our Black Hole of Calcutta and the three of us,
    the Major, the GI, and myself squeezed ourselves out of this tight fit
    and continued on our way."
                                       - Capt. Henry Keep, 82nd AB Div.

         "The second day we were there, I had just dug a little hole in the
    ground and I was squatting doing my daily dozen when three women and
    one man came and gave me a cup of coffee.  Inagine, squatting, drinking
    coffee and four people watching."
                                       - PFC John Allen, 82nd AB Div.

         "A few days after the liberation, I went to have a look at my
    house on Batavierenlaan.  Nothing was left of it.  First it had burned
    down and had then been ground to powder by shells.  Coal was supposed
    to be in the cellar, but I couldn't get to it.  What I did find was
    lots of eggs.  They were unbroken and had been boiled by the enormous
    heat of the fire.  The top layer was unfit for consumption but the
    bottom layer didn't taste bad at all."
                                       - Elias Broekkamp, Nijmegen

         "A military truck drove up and what entered the house then was
    almost an invasion of Germans.  We managed to get some of their liver
    and bacon to eat and hide behind a curtain under the sink.  I then
    checked on the soldiers in the living room who were so exhausted that
    they dropped off to sleep.  The mattress lying there was "accidently"
    slipped over three rifles.
         Suddenly shouting all around, with incredible speed the made off
    for Eindhoven.  With a few friends we discussed the retreat which
    possibly held a promise of liberation.
         The group fell silent at a certain moment because a dog was
    whimpering at the door.  The door was cautiously opened and in walked a
    small stray dog, obviously looking for its master.  It was given all
    sorts of names, pet names and nicknames, but it paid no attention.
    Until, at a certain mement during the retelling of our story the teller
    swore with the exact intonation that was used by the Germans with the
    word 'Scheisse' [shit].  At once the dog came to sit at the foot of the
    teller.  We only had to try it out again and saw that the dog would
    come rushing up to whoever called out 'Scheisse.'  And so for a week
    the German relic remained a house dog who gratefully accepted the peace
    and quiet.
         One evening, though, the Germans returned and an insolent officer
    threw all sorts of accusations at us.  It wasn't the guns he was
    missing, it was the dog.  We fetched 'Scheisse' and gave him back to
    the officer and they left without further ado."
                                                 - "Blackmail Paul"

         "On one occasion a neighbor's son rode along with a Jeep which was
    off somewhere in a hurry.  The boy clung to the car all excited.  It
    was terribly dangerous and he could have fallen off at any moment
    during the trip.  However, he was safe and sound on his return.  Dr.
    McIlroy said to him, 'Have you got a piece of wood for me?'  Whereupon
    the boy left and came back with a stick, which he handed to the Major.
    With this he was given a darned good beating on his backside, and it
    worked most effectively for the boy never attempted a trick like that
    again."
                             - Principal Waltherus Sprangers, Nijmegen

         "I couldn't read what was on a box and mixed some white powder for
    pancakes only to find out it was plaster of Paris."
                                       - Cpl. Harry Buffone, 82nd AB Div.

         "We dug a latrine and when we left we covered it up.  The people
    went over and put crosses on it thinking that we buried our dead."
    [The Dutch were so very kind and generous to the American liberators
    doing such things like giving them food, fighting help, and burying,
    marking, and putting flowers on temporary graves of KIA Americans, even
    in the heat of battle.  The above episode was an honest mistake, and
    while funny, is indicative of the gratitude of the people. -DM]
                                  - PFC Anthony Antonion, 82nd AB Div.

    More next week - I'm off to an archivist's conference tomorrow through
    Saturday.

    Doug

Received:  28-Sep-1994 02:39pm

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 28 Sep 1994 19:31:55 +1000
From:    Mick Fauchon <[email-masked]>
Subject: How many bridges too far?

        Hi, guys.

                Who can tell me the number and names of the bridges involved
in Operation Market-garden?

                                                                Cheers,

                                                                Mick.

--                                                                          --
Mick Fauchon                          | Internet: [email-masked]
Reference Section, Auchmuty Library   | Ph  (intl+61+49) 215861
University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA    | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833

     MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
     M                                                                   M
     M  Tasmanian Devil: "#@%!&^*%%...!#@!&**%^@@#$#-+*+*&##@...!!"      M
     M                                                                   M
     M  Yosemite Sam   : "Cut out that Army talk!..Yer in the Navy now!" M
     M                                                                   M
     MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 28 Sep 1994 17:27:00 UTC
From:    "Edward S. Miller" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Downfall

Carl Wernke writes

  > The directive for Olympic [invasion of Japan] was issued
  > by the Joint Chiefs  on May 25 [1945], setting their target date for
  > November 1 and giving MacArthur the chief responsibility  for the entire
  > operation....

Your facts are correct, Carl.  But an endless debate still rages among
historians as to whether an invasion would actually have been launched on
November 1 (or any date, for that matter) absent the atom bomb and the
Soviet attack in Manchuria.  We can never know, of course.  I belong to the
school that believes Truman would never have launched it.  It is imperative
to remember that his May 25 approval of JCS directive was a go-ahead to PLAN
AND PREPARE the operation, not to LAUNCH it.  He reserved the final decision
for a later date, which became moot when the war ended.  Historians of the
opposite persuasion argue that Truman had committed to the invasion
irrevocably.  Not so.  In WWII many an operation was scrubbed despite
intensive planning and preparation.
  BTW, I changed the name of this string to Downfall.
  Ed Miller  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 28 Sep 1994 14:54:04 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRIVIA:Czech Army

Hello, Tim!

> BTW, Italy in WW II is a favorite topic of mine.  It's sort of hard to
> cheer for a loser, but hey, if the war would have broke out in 1937,
> Mussolini would have been Hell on Wheels. :-)

    I wonder about that. Consider his performance in Cyrenaica in the
20's and 30's. He won out, but at terrible cost and inefficient use
of manpower and poor generalship.

    Also his performance in Abyssinia was not  all that great, having
to rely upon gas to defeat his opponent, even though, his forces did
employ armored fighting vehicles and some tanks against the lightly
armed Ethiopians.

    Mussolini would have been much better off not to have become
involved in the war at all, but we all know how that went.

    I have never felt that the Italian people and armed forces as
well really had the heart to fight a protracted war, and only did so
at the bidding of a popular head of state.

    Just my opinion though. Yours?

    Thank you for allowing me to express mine.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 28 Sep 1994 15:08:53 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: POL:Hiroshima

Hello, Julian!

> Was it "wanton"? Could somebody briefly reiterate why Hiroshima and
> Nagasaki were targeted? I suspect they had strategic value; why waste all
> that firepower?

   Hiroshima and Nagasaki were targeted for two reasons. 1) The
Americans were wanting to use this device on cities that had
previously been more or less untouched by the bombing. 2) At the
time, the weather over the cities were favorable to obtaining visual
results from the bomb, in other words, minimal cloud cover.

    Also, consider the experimental nature of the bomb. There was no
consensus at the time that it would work. In the case of the Nagasaki
bomb, they were more certain, but not with the first one.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 28 Sep 1994 15:43:40 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Radio Memory

Hello, Jim!

> WWII a lot of the news releases were recorded on huge lacquer disks (18 in
> dia, I think) which were copied and air freighted from New York to various
> affiliates.  After use they were destroyed per CBS regs except for master
> copies at the home office.  In the fifties, with all the bucks going to TV,
> some flunkie at CBS destroyed the bulk of the old disk recordings from the
> war "yesterday's news" so to speak.  Luckily, a technician at the CBS
> affiliate in Seatle (my fair city) kept as many disks as he could in the
> transmitter shack on Harbor Island, our industrial area.  They were located
> in the '60's and are now at the University of Washington.  This info is from
> my memory of a broadcast during the stations anniversary show a couple of
> years ago.

    Glad to hear that someone had the foresight to hang on to those
discs.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 28 Sep 1994 15:45:57 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Gustav Geraet

Hello, Mike!

Glad to hear from you.

> I've read of one instance at Sebastopol where the Dora equipment (800mm)
> supposedly destroyed a Russian ammo dump buried 103 feet underground.

    That is very true. You can read about this in the following:

        Scorched Earth by Paul Carell
        German Artillery of World War Two by Ian V. Hogg
        German Railway Guns (I can't remember the author at this time)

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 28 Sep 1994 14:05:29 PDT
From:    Henry Herz <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: Radio Memory

In message <[email-masked]> World War II Discussion List
writes:
> I interpreted the landings at somalia as the military using the media,  they
> let themselves be filmed to put the tear of god into the opposition.
>
I must disagree.  I don't believe the Marines wanted the media at the beach
front.  Besides, Marines have been putting the fear of God into opponents for a
long time without the help of the media.  When staring down the business end of
F-18s, Cobra gunships, and LCACs, most opponents are very close to soiling their
drawers.

Marines executing an (expectedly) opposed nighttime amphibious assault do not
like to be illuminated by cameramen.  Had there in fact been opposition, this
might have cost some Marines their lives.  As it is, the journalists were lucky
they didn't get shot by mistake.

(Can you tell I think the media behaves irresponsibly?)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 28 Sep 1994 17:25:05 -0500
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Report: 50th MARKET-GARDEN

> .......I'd be interested in
> any recommendations/info on the following:
>
> 2.  Battle of the Bulge: I'm looking for sites and museums.  I assume
> there will be something in Bastogne.

Hi Jim,

Be *sure* to see the Victory Museum in Arlon, Luxembourg.  It is a
museum apart from all others.  In Bastogne visit the Bastogne
Historical Center and in Diekirch there is a fine museum.  One I did
not get to visit is in La Gliese (but I did get my photo taken in
the King Tiger parked out front).  Houffalise (sp?) has a Panther of
the 116th Div and little towns all seem to have a 15cm gun on display
somewhere.

Enjoy,  Bill Huber  / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 28 Sep 1994 19:33:21 EDT
From:    Cassady Craft <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: POL:Hiroshima

Terry, you are backwards.  The Hiroshima bomb (little boy) was a gun-type
bomb that is very simple and everyone at Los Alamos (at least that's what the
"old salts" here tell me, I wasn't here) agreed that it would work.  The
second bomb, the Nagasaki "Fat Man" bomb, was a more controversial design.
Thiswastested in White Sands, NM in late July.  Even though the Trinity
shot went off, they weren't really "sure" that the Nagasaki bomb would because
it was more difficult to design and manufacture.

Cassady Craft
Department of Political Science
University of Georgia
e-mail [email-masked]
or
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 28 Sep 1994 20:09:11 EDT
From:    Kendall Miles <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Lufberry Circle

  In addition to the Japanese and Soviets, the Luftwaffe also used the
World War I tactic of the Lufbery circle, notably the Bf 110 Zerstorers
with their tail guns.  This tactic was occasionally used even by the
"skilled" German pilots during the Battle of Britain...this is mentioned
(among other places) in Boynes' Clash of Wings.

  Kendall Miles                   Since my thesis topic will be on
  [email-masked]           the relationship between the
  Graduate Student--History       Luftwaffe General Staff and the
                                  aircraft manufacturers, anyone
                                  who can suggest resources is
                                  welcome.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 29 Sep 1994 01:20:37 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Report: 50th MARKET-GARDEN

On Wed, 28 Sep 1994, Jim Benn wrote:

> 2.  Battle of the Bulge: I'm looking for sites and museums.  I assume
> there will be something in Bastogne.

There is of course a museum in Bastogne (of course, because every village
in the Ardennes has at least its own Sherman tank), and nearby a large
memorial. There is another museum well worth visting in Luxemburg, but I
can't remember the name now.

> 3.  Eben Emael (sp?):  Does the fort still exist, and can it be visited?
      ^^^^^^^^^^ ----

Yes on both. I haven't been there, but my parents have. I do not exactly
know when these visits are possible, though.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 28 Sep 1994 20:52:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 29 SEP 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
FRIDAY, 29 SEPTEMBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): In the Kurile Islands, 2 B-24s bomb Katooka
naval base and Kokutan Cape.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): 11 B-25s attack and damage the main bridge,
knock out the bypass bridge and silence adjoining AA positions on the Burma
Road near Uambkai, Burma. 18 B-24s haul fuel to Yungning, Liuchow, and
Kunming, China.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 11 B-25s bomb Mangshih, 24 bomb
Tien Ho and White Cloud Airfields at Canton, and 15 hit targets of
opportunity around Chuanhsien, Taochuan and Taohsien; about 100 P-51s, P-40s,
and P-38s again attack various targets of opportunity throughout the vast
expanses of China S of the Yangtze River, hitting road, rail, and river
targets, troops, and town areas.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 654: 5 B-17s and 5 B-24s
drop leaflets on the Netherlands, France and Germany during the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In Germany, 400+ B-26s and A-20s hit
marshalling yards and rail sidings at Prum, Euskirchen, and Bingen, dragon's
teeth antitank defenses near Webenheim, and marshalling yards, rail sidings,
warehouses and barracks at Julich and Bitburg; 1,500+ fighters escort the
bombers, hit railroads, fly sweeps and armed reconnaissance over wide areas
of the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Belgium, E France, and in W Germany as far E
as Frankfurt/Main. In France, the 10th, 81st and 313th Fighter Squadrons,
50th Fighter Group move from Laon to Lyon/Bron with P-47s; the 411th Fighter
Squadron, 373d Fighter Group, moves from St-James to Reims with P-47s; the
452d Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 322d Bombardment Group (Medium), moves
from Great Saling, England to Beauvais/Tille with B-26s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, A-20s and medium bombers
are again grounded by weather; fighter-bombers, hampered by weather, fly 52
sorties in the afternoon, cutting rail lines leading S from Milan.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 3 B-24s from Saipan Island bomb Marcus Island;
2 others hit Iwo Jima and Pagan Islands.  P-47s bomb and strafe gun positions
on Pagan Island. B-24s from Eniwetok Atoll pound Truk Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: Kendari Airfield on
Celebes Island is bombed by B-24s. B-25s hit both Namlea Airfields on Buru
Island while B-24s blast Liang on Ambon Island and Haroekoe Airfield on
Haroekoe Island. In New Guinea, A-20s and Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF)
aircraft, continue to pound Urarom Airfield; other A-20s bomb Faan Airfield.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

29/0054Z SEP

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 28 Sep 1994 18:50:26 -0700
From:    Jim Curry <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRIVIA:Czech Army

Actually, in 1937,the Italians were at war-- in Spain.  Mussolini sent
"volunteers" as well as large amounts of war material to Franco's forces.
These troops took a beating at Guadalajara by Spanish Republicans--
including anti-Fascist Italians in the International Brigades!  Overall
however the Italian assistance (on a considerably larger scale than the
more famous "Condor Legion" from Germany) was very useful to the Spanish
Insurgents. An often-overlooked reason for bad Italian morale in World
War II is that the Italians were already war-weary when it began.
Also it's interesting to coanmpare the Italian performance in two world
wars.  In the first war the Italians showed a dogged determination missing
in the second. All anybody outside Italy remembers is Caporetto, the great
disaster that is the central event in Hemingway's _Farewell to Arms_.
But the Italians recovered from that defeat and avenged it at Vittorio
Veneto in 1918.  Throughout WWI the Italians fought in nightmarish terrain
under generals as boneheaded as any on the Western Front. Their battle
deaths matched the losses of the British.  Only occasionally in WWII did
Italians fight as well.  The difference?  In 1915 Italy had a real national
cause--to liberate territory still under the rule of Austria-Hungary,an
ancient enemy and former occupier.   In 1940 few Italians saw any good
reason to fight on the side of Germany against France, Britain (a longtime
friend of Italy) or the US where so many Italians had relatives.
Jim Curry

On Wed, 28 Sep 1994, Robert T. Moore wrote:

> Hello, Tim!
>
> > BTW, Italy in WW II is a favorite topic of mine.  It's sort of hard to
> > cheer for a loser, but hey, if the war would have broke out in 1937,
> > Mussolini would have been Hell on Wheels. :-)
>
>     I wonder about that. Consider his performance in Cyrenaica in the
> 20's and 30's. He won out, but at terrible cost and inefficient use
> of manpower and poor generalship.
>
>     Also his performance in Abyssinia was not  all that great, having
> to rely upon gas to defeat his opponent, even though, his forces did
> employ armored fighting vehicles and some tanks against the lightly
> armed Ethiopians.
>
>     Mussolini would have been much better off not to have become
> involved in the war at all, but we all know how that went.
>
>     I have never felt that the Italian people and armed forces as
> well really had the heart to fight a protracted war, and only did so
> at the bidding of a popular head of state.
>
>     Just my opinion though. Yours?
>
>     Thank you for allowing me to express mine.
>
>     Terry
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 28 Sep 1994 22:35:54 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: POL: HIROSHIMA

Thank you, George. I accept what you say in the spirit in which it was given.
Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 28 Sep 1994 22:52:26 EST
From:    "CARL WERNKE (TCWERNC@VCCSCENT)" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TAC: WAR PLAN ORANGE

 To: Multiple recipients of list WWII-L([email-masked])

 Edward S.Miller
 Ed,

 Please post as much information as possible on WAR PLAN ORANGE. I plan to use
 this information in my history classes at Tidewater Community College,
 Portsmouth campus.--- TIA

 Carl Wernke
 [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 28 Sep 1994 22:57:18 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: RADIO MEMOR

Actually, the disks were 16 inches in diameter. Which brings up an interesting
sidelight about those disks. When we entered the war, the head of the music
deparment at the Library of Congress, Spivak was his last name and I think
Herbert was his first, but I don't recall. He thought that the songs of the
sailors, soldiers, and Marines in the war should be recorded, and so he offered
the various services' directors of information a recording setup for each of
the services to take overseas. It was a car battery-powered recording device
which would record on these 16-inch disks. No service took him up on the offer
except General Denig, the Marine Corps Director of Public Affairs, because he
visualized a use beyond recording camp fire songs. He thought that they could
be wellused by Marine Corps radio combat correspondents in the field, and they
were. Alvin Josephy, for instance, as a sergeant recorded the invasion of Guam,
and so on. These wartime recordings reside in the Music Division of the Library
of Congress, and have been used only rarely, insofar as I know.
Ben Frank

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 27 Sep 1994 to 28 Sep 1994
*************************************************