Subject: WWII-L Digest - 19 Sep 1994 to 20 Sep 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 1994 00:00:22 -0400

There are 36 messages totalling 1233 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. PELELIU (4)
  2. WEAP: Schwerer Gustav (2)
  3. ROMMEL and/or "The Grief"
  4. Re[2]: WWII Germans in China
  5. Phillipine Invasion Unnec
  6. MAC AND THE PHILIP
  7. NOST: CAF & Miss Mitchell (2)
  8. Nimitz and Halsey
  9. INF: 50 Years Ago - 21-SEP-1944
 10. WAR PLAN YELLOW (3)
 11. Fwd: Deutsche Arbeitsbuecher (3)
 12. B-24 crews honored by Poles
 13. Acts of Nature (7)
 14. Acts of Nature in WWII (2)
 15. For: Edward Miller
 16. Leaflets
 17. Len Deighton
 18. SEEBEES AND SAS
 19. Aftermath of Market Garden???
 20. [INF] USAAF 21 SEP 44

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 19 Sep 1994 23:14:31 CDT
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: PELELIU

Dear Ben,

Saw nothing re Peleliu in the NY press (I don't get the Post),
but that's not surprising, I don't think that, between them,
they've done half a dozen pieces on the Smithsonian Hiroshima
controversy.

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 20 Sep 1994 00:20:04 +0000
From:    Josh Talbert <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: PELELIU

Dear Ben,

In the Sunday, September 18, 1994 edition of the _Waco Tribune Herald_, they ran
a story on Peleliu which covered about half a page.  It was in a series of
articles that they've been running about 50th Anniversaries of WWII battles.
The article was very informative, and gave the same info that has appeared right
here on this list.  I must take time to say that I enjoy observing this list.
Both of my grandfathers served in the war, and both came out alive.  However,
they were both gone before I was old enough to care about WWII.  This list has
provided me with more knowledge than I could ever retain!  Thanks, and keep the
info flowing!

Josh Talbert
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 20 Sep 1994 07:41:07 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Schwerer Gustav

Hello, Steve and Dave!

Here goes with the first installment on the Gustav/Dora weapon.

                         Development

This was the third gun whose production occupied Krupp's designers
after 1937 and was this 80cm monster. In common with most
superweapons, many legends have grown up around the 80cm K(E) and
with the passing of years, it is becoming increasingly difficult to
sort out the wheat from the chaff; the following information appears
to approximate to the truth and is substantiated by examination of
documents and correspondence with eyewitnesses.

The weapon was conceived some time in 1935 partly as a serious
project and partly as a propaganda stunt when the Heereswaffenamt
(Army Weapons Office) inquired of Krupp what size of weapon would be
needed to defeat the fortifications of the Maginot Line by direct
assault. In response to this, ballistic data was calculated for
hypothetical guns of 70, 80, and 100 cm calibre and sent to the army.
There the matter rested until a visit by Hitler in March 1936 to the
Krupp works. There he apparently asked the same question and was
given the same figures; he was also told that although manufacture of
such a weapon would be difficult, it would not be impossible. No
definite commitment was made by Hitler, bu Gustav Krupp von Bohlen
und Halbach-knowing his man-gave instructions for design work to
commence on the 80cm model and early in 1937, drawings were laid
before the Heereswaffenamt. They were approved and manufacture began
in the summer of the same year. The specifications were as follows:

            maximum range: 35-45 km (21.7-27.9 miles)
            penetration capabilities: 1 meter of armor steel
                                      7 meters of concrete and
                                      30 meters of solid earth

The final order to begin construction was given to Professor (Dipl.-
Ing.) Erich Mueller.

The production of such a monster was not easy (particularly the
forging and machining of the barrel jacket and cradle). The mountings
were orthodox in design and comprised a box-girder carriage mounted
on 4 twin trucks each of 5 axles; i.e. a total of 80 wheels, running
on two parallel tracks. The top carriage, trunnions, cradle and
barrel were then assembled above. For travelling, the upper parts
were removed by crane and loaded onto transport cars. The lower
carriage was then split longitudinally to form two half carriages,
each within the single track loading guage.

It soon became apparent that it would not be ready by the spring of
1940 in accordance with the original estimate. The Maginot Line was
overcome by other means but when the French Campaign was over, Hitler
reportedly carpeted the Krupp management and demanded results.
Whether this had an effect is doubtful but the gun barrel was
successfully built byu the end of 1940 and fired at proof early in
1941 and tested at the Hillersleben training ground from 10 Sep-6 Oct
1941 and at Ruegenwalde from 25 Nov-5 Dec 1941. Finally, early in
1942, the complete equipment was assembled at the Ruegenwalde firing
range and underwent its final tests in the presence of Hitler himself.

Tomorrow, I will post the assembly procedure of this weapon. Hope
this has been of interest. More later.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 20 Sep 1994 21:51:13 +0900
From:    Akira Takiguchi <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ROMMEL and/or "The Grief"

"William L. Huber - SAA" <[email-masked]> wrote:
>I knew Akira was lurking out there waiting for a panzer question.
>Glad to see you back!

     Thank you.  But since I'm still so busy that I'll have to submerge
again like a U boot :-).

>Any idea what happened to Greif or any of
>Rommel's command vehicles after the fall of N. Africa?  Were they
>destroyed, captured, returned to Europe with Rommel or just left to
>slowly rust in Libya or Tunisia?

     Sorry, but I have no idea.  I'll ask Mr Kitamura (author of a splendid
DAK photo book).

>I did a bit of scratching around last night and in Law's biography of
>Rommel (unindexed :-/ ) I found mention of Rommel using a Horch, the

     One example was Horch Kfz.15 WH-903944 named Pavian (baboon).
Naming vehicles was not uncommon among Wehrmacht, indeed.  (BTW, Greif
was WH-937036, if anyone cares)

>It must have been around this time that Rommel became impressed with
>the British Mammoth and decided to make it his command vehicle.  I
>wonder if he took Cruwell's?

     Cruwell used "Moritz" and Rommel used "Max" (named after a juvenile
by a German poet).  Some of my sources say they are AEC Dochester(?) and
some say "AEC Matador".  Which is correct?  (I have virtually no books
on English weapons :-).

Akira Takiguchi  ATSON Inc.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 20 Sep 1994 08:00:47 CDT
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re[2]: WWII Germans in China

China did have a number of German made Mauser---as the story goes,
Madame Chiang visited the Mauser plant in Germany and saw lots of extra
parts laying around.  These parts were unacceptible by German tolerances
to be used in rifles made for the Wehrmacht.  She asked if these parts
could be made into usable rifles, and the reply was yes.  Then they
apparently made a bargain deal for "sub-standard rifles" made from the
parts.  The story came from "Baclbone of the Wehrmacht"--which is the
bible about the Kar 98(k).  I forget the author.  TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 20 Sep 1994 09:35:15 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Phillipine Invasion Unnec

During the sea battle for Leyete, wasn't there a destroyer that charged
the enemy fleet as it was advancing that helped turn the tide?

Anybody got any details???

Did the skipper survive/earn the MOH/etc???
                                                                Steve
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - [email-masked] |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 20 Sep 1994 08:39:41 EST
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: WEAP: Schwerer Gustav

Interesting and informative post as always from Terry.  I just came
across an interesting note in Garzke and Dulin's book on Axis and
Neutral Battleships as well.  Apparently Hitler wanted the 80cm gun
for H-39 to H-44 design projects as well but was dissuaded when the
necessary size of the ship was pointed out to him.
*****************************************************
(Roger) Brad Coon             The right to defend
[email-masked]          one's self and one's
[email-masked]    family against harm and
                              injustice is the most
                              basic civil right.

Proud to be a member of America's largest civil rights
group, the National Rifle Association.
******************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 20 Sep 1994 20:59:53 +0700
From:    "Peter E. Beal" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MAC AND THE PHILIP

On Mon, 19 Sep 1994, Ben Frank wrote:

> Cassady, CMH is reprinting its Green Book series, only in paperback. I suggest
> that you contact that office or check with GPO to see if it is selling them.
> Maps still accompany each publication, and there is some interesting artwork on
> each cover. Ben Frank
>
Who (or what) is CMH?  How does one contact them?

Thanks in advance for your assistance.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 20 Sep 1994 11:45:42 EDT
From:    SKIP WILDER <[email-masked]>
Subject: NOST: CAF & Miss Mitchell

For Robert Granvin-
        I'm planning on attending the Confederate Air Force Annual Air Show
at the Midland, Texas headquarters in October.  Any chance we'll meet up
with you and Miss Mitchell there?
        Regards,

 -----------------------------------------------------------
 |    Skip Wilder              |                           |
 |    [email-masked]      |"The road to hell is paved |
 |    FAX (703)528-2103        | with good intentions."    |
 |    McLean, Virginia, U.S.A. |                           |
 -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 20 Sep 1994 11:05:42 CDT
From:    Robert Hohlt <[email-masked]>
Subject: Nimitz and Halsey

Danny G. Cox on Mon, 19 Sep 1994:

>What exactly was the relationship between Nimitz and Halsey, and how did
>Nimitz view Halsey as a strategist?

Oddly enough, there is an article about Nimitz, Halsey and
Spruance in the new issue, (NOV 94) of WWII mag.  Just got it.

It contrasts Spruance's and Halsey's styles.

Ben, Admiral King shaved with a blow torch?
I can see that.  His picture in Time Life Books is very intimidating.

Regards,

Robert Hohlt, Jr.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 20 Sep 1994 09:25:45 -0700
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 21-SEP-1944

On 21-SEP-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The British troops defending the bridge in Arnhem are
overwhelmed. A defensive parameter is formed by the rest of the British 1st
Airborne Division on the north bank of the Rhine, west of Oosterbeek. A Polish
Parachute Brigade is dropped two miles south of this position on the opposite
side of the river. The British XXX Corps continues to attack from Nijmegen
northwards but make very little progress.

Italian Front - The Canadians of the I Corps and the Greek 3rd Moutain Brigade
enter Rimini.

Peleliu - The Marines face a stalemate in the face of the very powerful
Japanese defence from the caves of Mount Umurbrogol.

Philippines - Twelve aircraft carriers of TF 38, commanded by Vice-Admiral
Marc Mitscher, begin three days of heavy attacks on Japanese airfields and
shipping on Luzon and the islands in the Visaya Sea. One Japanese destroyer,
one tanker and seven other ships are sunk. Since August 31, TF 38 has
destroyed at least 1,000 Japanese aircraft and sunk 150 ships of all types. TF
38 has lost 72 aircraft including 18 accidents.

The Homefront
-------------
Navy Growth - Secretary of the Navy James V. Forrestal says the Navy now has
more than 1,500,000 officers and men serving overseas and afloat.

General Roosevelt Honored - Brig. Gen. Theodore Roosevelt has been awarded the
Congressional Medal of Honor posthumously. Roosevelt died of a heart attack in
France.

Cards Clinch Pinnant - The St. Louis Cardinals have clinched their eighth
National League pinnant and their third in a row by defeating the Braves in
Boston, 5-4 and 6-5.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "Facts On File Yearbook 1944,
Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 20 Sep 1994 14:12:53 -0400
From:    "Benjamin B. Weber" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WAR PLAN YELLOW

On Mon, 19 Sep 1994, Ben Frank wrote:

> Ed, have you ever heard of War Plan Yellow. A researcher came in today and said
> that he read one of Allan Millett's books in which he passingly mentioned WP
> Yellow. Do you have any suggestion where he can find out about it? Ben Frank
>

Wasn't Plan Yellow (German "Fall Gelb") the Nazi plan to invade Holland?  I
know that it was one of their invasion plans.  Any of the major military
histories of WWII should have info on this (eg. Weinberg).

Benjamin Weber
Univ. of Vermont
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 20 Sep 1994 14:38:57 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Fwd: Deutsche Arbeitsbuecher

Can anyone help this person??

Terry,

Any thing you can offer?

Jim

I am a labor market sociologist and have gotten interested in
using Arbeitsbuecher as primary data sources to look at labor markets
and individual careers in Nazi Germany.  I've picked up a couple
of these documents at flea markets in Berlin and think they would
be very good sources.

By Arbeitsbuecher I mean the small reddish-brown, passport-sized documents
that employees had to present to their employers beginning in 1935.

Does anyone:

1) know of others who have worked with these documents or historical
sources that discuss them in detail;

2) know of archives (or perhaps private firms) that have large numbers
of these documents.

James C. Witte
Northwestern University, Evanston, IL.   USA
[email-masked]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 20 Sep 1994 15:05:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: B-24 crews honored by Poles

>From the US Air Force News Service

It's nice to see this type of story once in awhile!

Jack McKillop

666.  B-24 crew honored by Poles
by MSgt. Gary Pomeroy
Air Force News Service
     WASHINGTON -- The American crew of a B-24H "Liberator" bomber
-- still revered in a rural Polish region where the aircraft crashed
after it was shot down by the Germans 50 years ago -- was honored by
the Polish government recently.
     The event capped nearly a half century of defiance and
perseverance by villagers of Wadowice and Zygodowice who resisted
efforts of Nazis and, later, Communists to let wither the memory of
the crew, whom they viewed as patriots devoted to restoring their
freedom.
     Polish Ambassador to the United States Jerzy Kozminski hosted
the August 30 ceremony at the Polish Embassy, which coincided with
Polish Armed Forces Day.
     The event was attended by about 500 people, including
servicemembers from NATO countries, the former Warsaw Pact and --
most notably -- the four known surviving members of the "Liberator"
crew.
     On behalf of Polish President Lech Walesa, Kozminski presented
the Polish Home Army Cross to the four survivors.  The cross was
also presented posthumously to the six crew members who died in the
ordeal and one other member who could not be located.
     "The crews of those planes had to overcome tremendous difficulty
in order to get to Warsaw in order to cross long distances from their
bases through enemy lines," Kozminski said, referring to the overall
Allied effort during the war.
     The "efforts and outstanding courage" of this particular crew
were singled out largely because of a memorial that local residents
constructed shortly after the aircraft was shot down.
     On September 13, 1944, the crew, assigned to the 831st
Bombardment Squadron (Heavy) of the 485th Bombardment Group (Heavy)
in Venosa, Italy, was one about 100 B-24s en route to bomb the
synthetic oil fields and rubber plant at Oswiecim, near the Auschwitz
death camp in south central Poland.
     While approaching the target from an altitude of about 19,000
feet (5,791 m), heavy flak tore into the aircraft.  As the aircraft
broke apart, the crew scrambled for parachutes.  Five survived and
were taken prisoner by the Nazis.  Of the six who died, four fell
free to the ground and two were trapped in the aircraft.
     Zygodowice villagers buried the remains in a common grave and
were allowed by the Germans to place a cross at the site.
     Ultimately, the Germans became irritated by the locals, who
repeatedly visited the grave to pray and leave flowers.  The Germans
began removing the flowers and threatened to send locals to
concentration camps if they kept coming to pay homage.
     Despite the threats, villagers continued to sneak to the site and
place flowers.
     At the end of war and German occupation, villagers built a
memorial and turned out in large numbers to commemorate the occasion.
     When the Cold War began, Poland's Communist leaders -- seeking
to discourage positive symbols toward the capitalists -- ordered the
memorial dismantled.
     When American military teams came to Poland in 1947 to dig up
and transfer the bodies to American cemeteries, the locals concealed
their strong emotions toward the American airmen who had fallen in
their countryside.
     It was silence that endured -- at least to the outside world -- for
44 years, until the end of the Cold War.  Then, in October 1991, the
villagers erected a new and more formal monument to the memory of the
crew.
     "I think it's a wonderful thing what the Polish people did," said
Daniel N. Blodgett, one of the surviving crew members who attended
the ceremony, referring to the long-term devotion of the Polish
people and the ceremony.
     "But the tribute goes to the six guys who (died)," said Blodgett,
a native of Alton, Illinois.
     Blodgett -- who spent most of the rest of the war at Stalag Luft
1 in Barth, Germany, until the camp was liberated by the Russians on
May 1, 1945 -- was deeply flattered that the crew had been singled
out for such notoriety.  But, in true humble GI fashion, he remarked:
"We weren't doing anything that 20,000 other airmen weren't doing."
     (Historical information provided by Dan Mortensen of the Air
Force historian's office)
--

      //^\\
     /// \\\
    ///   \\\
   ///     \\\                    Air Force News Agency
   |         |              Kelly Air Force Base, Texas, USA
   \\ CMSgt //    ___________________ /____________________________________
   \\ Mike  //
   \\Bergman/
    \\    //
       ~~

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 20 Sep 1994 14:23:32 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Deutsche Arbeitsbuecher

Hello, James!

Will try to answer your questions.

> 1) know of others who have worked with these documents or historical
> sources that discuss them in detail;

    No, I have no personal contact with anyone who works with this
sort of book. Bill Huber in San Antonio, also on this list, can offer
you more insight into this. I am aware of people who sell and collect
such books, but do not do research into this area. I am sorry about
that.

> 2) know of archives (or perhaps private firms) that have large numbers
> of these documents.

    Outside of the Berlin Document Center, which houses the records
of Nazi Party members, i.e. Waffen-SS, Allgemeine-SS, NSKK, etc., I
know of no other agency which offers assistance to researchers in
this area.

    The BDC recently has been returned to German control, but access
to such documentation should not be any different than under the
previous American control.

    However, Bill Huber would be the one to contact, and I am certain
he will, if and when he reads this.

    I am sorry that I can't be of more assistance.

    Terry

 To Jim Irwin,

 Thanks for the note and hope you are well.

 Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 20 Sep 1994 15:03:31 -0500
From:    Drew Halevy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acts of Nature

I was watching the news this morning and I saw that a volcano had erupted
at Rabal in New Guina. My question is this:have there been any case of
combat being effected by acts of Nature (read God). All that I can think
of is the mulberry harbor at Normandy being wrecked by a hurricane (?) in
the fall of 1994. thanks-Drew

Drew Halevy
Department of History
University of Arkansas
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 20 Sep 1994 15:07:34 -0500
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Deutsche Arbeitsbuecher

> Does anyone:
>
> 1) know of others who have worked with these documents or historical
> sources that discuss them in detail;

To my knowledge there are only cursory descriptions of these
documents in reference books aimed primarily at militaria collectors
of 3rd Reich period collectibles.  Nothing in depth or analytical
exists that I have run across.

> 2) know of archives (or perhaps private firms) that have large numbers
> of these documents.

These documents were issued to individuals and were kept by them.
Again, I am not aware if copies of these documents or the data
contained therein are available anywhere.  It probably does as the
Germans were into documentation and quantification but I am not aware
of any existing repositories.

You might consider studying the documents of the DAF (Deutsches
Arbeits Front), RAD (Reichs Arbeits Dienst) or FAD (Freiwilliger
Arbeits Dienst) all of which were Nazi Party organizations and
therefore would be within the scope of the Berlin Document Center
collection.  I know for a fact they have a number of membership books
of the RADw (female members of the RAD) as a German scholar was
researching them while I was there.

Other organizations that may be helpful to research would be the TeNo
(Technische Nothilfe) or the Org. Todt (sort of akin to the US CBs
aka Sea Bees)  Org. Todt was responsible for major construction
efforts like the Autobahn system, and later various defensive lines in
Europe and Russia.  Again, since these were Nazi organizations the
BDC would be the repository to check.

The Arbeitsbuchs were issued as part of the Civil government and
another version (Arbeitsbuch fur Auslander) was issued for foreign
workers.  I have one or two in my collection but the BDC sounds like
a gold mine for your research if you want to shift emphasis to the
Nazi organizations.

You can contact the BDC at:

Berlin Document Center
Wasserkaefersteig 1
1000 Berlin  37
Germany               It is now part of the Bundesarchiv system

> James C. Witte
> Northwestern University, Evanston, IL.   USA
> [email-masked]
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cheers, Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 20 Sep 1994 17:06:39 EDT
From:    Patrick D Marsden <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acts of Nature

>
> I was watching the news this morning and I saw that a volcano had erupted
> at Rabal in New Guina. My question is this:have there been any case of
> combat being effected by acts of Nature (read God). All that I can think
> of is the mulberry harbor at Normandy being wrecked by a hurricane (?) in
> the fall of 1994. thanks-Drew
>
> Drew Halevy
> Department of History
> University of Arkansas
> [email-masked]
>

Didn't Vesuvius (Southern Italy on the Bay of Naples) go active in
1944?  I'm not sure how violent the eruption was or how it affected
the Italian campaign.

patrick
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 20 Sep 1994 13:57:26 PDT
From:    Henry Herz <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acts of Nature

In message <[email-masked]> World War II Discussion List
writes:
> I was watching the news this morning and I saw that a volcano had erupted
> at Rabal in New Guina. My question is this:have there been any case of
> combat being effected by acts of Nature (read God). All that I can think
> of is the mulberry harbor at Normandy being wrecked by a hurricane (?) in
> the fall of 1994. thanks-Drew

Drew-

To answer your question, you must first define "acts of nature", "combat", and
"effected".  Obviously combat has been and continues to be affected by the
natural phenomena of day/night and weather (precipitation, winds, tides, heavy
seas).  Extending this further, sunspot activity can affect communications, thus
indirectly influencing combat.  Shall we also include skirmishes halted at the
sight of astronomical events such as Halley's comet (although the comet doesn't
hit the earth, it nonetheless affected the conflict) or wars put on hold because
drought prevented the troops from being fed adequately?

Are you only interested in CATASTROPHIC natural events (earthquakes, volcanic
eruptions, lightning strikes, hurricanes/tornadoes/sandstorms, tidal waves,
eclipses, meteor impacts, geysers, animal stampedes, natural fires, insect
plagues, torrential rains, floods, mudslides, and Melrose Place)?  How about the
typhoon (from which the term "kamikaze" was derived) that wrecked the Mongolian
invasion of Japan?

Also, are you interested in combat only or military operations in general?  For
example, the Philippine volcanic eruption that wiped out Clark Air Force Base,
or the hurricane that wrecked Hurlburt field (?) in Florida?

-Henry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 20 Sep 1994 14:22:00 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acts of Nature

>I was watching the news this morning and I saw that a volcano had erupted
>at Rabal in New Guina. My question is this:have there been any case of
>combat being effected by acts of Nature (read God). All that I can think
>of is the mulberry harbor at Normandy being wrecked by a hurricane (?) in
>the fall of 1994. thanks-Drew
>
>Drew Halevy
>Department of History
>University of Arkansas
>[email-masked]

How about the Divine Wind, the parting of the Red Sea, the two typoons
during WWII?  Wasn't there a small earthquake at Iwo Jima during the
fighting?

John Riegsecker                                 (206) 756-3566
Dept of Math and Computer Science               [email-masked]
University of Puget Sound

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 20 Sep 1994 17:37:27 EDT
From:    Brian Nicklas <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acts of Nature in WWII

I think we can leave out non-WWII ref., those can go on the Mil. Hist. List.
Vesuvius erupted March 23, 1944, and causedsevere damage to a lot of
Allied a/c in the area.  There are numerous Air Force photos of the
flightline of a nearby base where B-25s lay mangled and burned.
I don't have any handy ref. to how it affected ground ops.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 20 Sep 1994 16:38:59 -0500
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acts of Nature

> I was watching the news this morning and I saw that a volcano had erupted
> at Rabal in New Guina. My question is this:have there been any case of
> combat being effected by acts of Nature (read God).
>
> Drew Halevy
> [email-masked]

Hi Drew,

Oh yeah!  In 1944 Mt. Vesuvius (near Naples - the one that buried
Pompei and Herculaneum) erupted and filled the sky with so
much ash that it grounded the airforces of all nations operating in
southern Italy.  More aircraft were destroyed due to that volcano
than to enemy actions according to a member of the 450th Bomber Group
Heavy (Cotton Tails) that I spoke to at their reunion in Italy.  I
believe he was saying that it was a statistic that applied beyond his
unit.

Some of the list's Air Corps experts can provide more details but
your question triggered some brain cells so I thought I'd pass this
on.

Cheers, Bill Huber / [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 20 Sep 1994 16:58:58 CDT
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: For: Edward Miller

Given the complications my system has with .com, I'm not sure my
off-line response of early last week to your earlier query went                 through. If you've responded, I haven't received it.

Sincerely,

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 20 Sep 1994 19:56:00 UTC
From:    "Edward S. Miller" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WAR PLAN YELLOW

  > Ed, have you ever heard of War Plan Yellow. A researcher came in today
  > and said  that he read one of Allan Millett's books in which he
  > passingly mentioned WP  Yellow. Do you have any suggestion where he can
  > find out about it? Ben Frank
 Ben:
  Yellow was China in the US "color" code system created by the Joint Army-
Navy Board in 1903.  War Plan Yellow was largely an army project; I don't
recall seeing a navy plan.  It was never highly devloped like Plan Orange
(Japan).
  War Plan Yellow presumed an uprising in north China like the Boxer
Rebellion would threaten foreign interests there.  It would be squelched by
20,000 allied troops. The actual 1927 intervention of foreign forces during
the Chinese civil war was more or less the model. The 1931 version assumed
the US would send 1,500 soldiers and marines, Japan 12,000 (!), and European
powers the rest, to face a vastly larger but ill-equipped Chinese army.
Also about 100 allied planes vs. 80 Chinese.  Naval participation was
insignificant because China had no fleet.
  The only publication I know of (the source of the above) is Major Dana
George Mead, USA, "United States Peacetime Strategic Planning, 1920-1941:
The Color Plans to the Victory Program," PhD diss., Mass. Institute of
Technology, June 1967, pp 251-260,  available from University Microfilms on
paper or film.  Another source might be Thad Holt of Carlisle PA, a good
historian and former deputy undersec'y of the army, who is something of an
expert on the old plans.
  If the crowd wants more, I can post details from Mead's work.

Ed Miller    Stamford CT   [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 20 Sep 1994 15:20:01 -0800
From:    Ron Skinner <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WAR PLAN YELLOW

On Mon, 19 Sep 1994, Ben Frank wrote:

> Ed, have you ever heard of War Plan Yellow. A researcher came in today
> and said that he read one of Allan Millett's books in which he passingly
> mentioned WP Yellow. Do you have any suggestion where he can find out
> about it? Ben Frank

On Tue, 20 Sep 1994, Benjamin Weber responded:

>Wasn't Plan Yellow (German "Fall Gelb") the Nazi plan to invade Holland?  I
>know that it was one of their invasion plans.  Any of the major military
>histories of WWII should have info on this (eg. Weinberg).

If memory serves, War Plan Yellow was the incredibly prescient work of LtC
Earl Ellis, USMC, who developed an amazingly detailed plan in the 20s for
the coming war with Japan. With Ben Frank looking over my shoulder, I'm not
about to go further with anything remotely connected with Corps history.
:-) Suffice it to say that Ellis predicted the attack on Pearl Harbor 20
years before the fact.

I'm sure about Ellis' plan, but I could be wrong about it being War Plan Yellow.

Ron Skinner

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 20 Sep 1994 18:35:52 -0500
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acts of Nature

Do the thirty US infantrymen and Marines killed by falling trees on
Bougainville count as an "act of nature?"  Also, the huge typhoon which almost
wrecked Halsey's Third Fleet in 1945 would have to qualify.

Regards

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 20 Sep 1994 18:13:12 -0600
From:    Tony Schuler <[email-masked]>
Subject: Leaflets

Some time ago somebody asked about the contents of scriptures dropped
by the allies or the axis. Here is one that I have found. I also have
one that I can post for the surrender of German Officers. Typos are
mine.

THE SITUATION OF THE GERMAN TROOPS ON THE CHANNEL COAST

        Shortly before the end of the war, after the decisive battles which
lost you France have been fought, threatened with encirclement and with
your backs to the sea, from where you also may be attacked: that is how you
were fighting in a hopeless situation.

        Allied armoured divisions have crossed the Meuse on a wide front, took
Verdun and are approaching the Reich boundary against weak resistance.

        The Seventh German Army after the battles South of the Seine,
has ceased to exist. Other allied units are already deep in Belgium.

        The army that landed in southern france has reached the Swiss
border and is pushing towards the Vesges.

        In Rumania, the 6th and 8th German Armies were defeated and partially encir-
cled. Rumania herself has declared war against Germany. Russian troops have
crossed the Danube and reached the oil region.  The Danube Valley thus is
open again.

        The War is near its end.

        YOU MUST MAKE UP YOUR MIND...   before the attack reaches you.  For
you-every one of you, other ranks or officers - have the following choice:

        TO HOLD OUT?    For pure reasons of prestige you may be
                        ordered to sacrifice yourself here far be-
                        hind the actual front - in a situation which
                        is more impossible and hopeless than that
                        of       the dead of Falaise. But your sacrifice
                        can not influence the end.

        TO RETREAT?     Even fully motorized divisions, such as those
                        of the decimated Panzer Group West, found the
                        hail of bombs and rockets on the retreat
                        roads even worse than the pocket of Falaise. The roads
                        of retreat do not lead home, they lead to death and
                        destruction.

        TO GIVE UP?     The party fanatics at the top, for whom peace means
                        their own undoing, wish to prevent you from doing
                        this, but the individual soldier decides for himself.
                        In the last weeks of the war everyone must take his
                        fate into his own hands.

Tony Schuler
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 20 Sep 1994 16:25:35 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Len Deighton

To me, Len Deighton's BOMBER is one of the best re-creations of the
life, duties, and typical experiences of aircrew in RAF Bomber Command.
All the more creditable, considering the book itself is fiction. His
research was remarkably good.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 20 Sep 1994 16:34:06 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: SEEBEES AND SAS

Ben...
        "recommend 'Popski's Private Army' "
Ahem, a good book in itself, about the only British army unit to be
officially given a "Private Army" name, but the unit had no connection
at all with the Special Air Services Regiment.
        Couple of good SAS histories I suggest are:
                THE SAS, by Philip Warner
and
                WINGED DAGGER, by Roy Farran.

Regards -- Sidney.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 20 Sep 1994 16:39:34 -0700
From:    Ed Kettler <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acts of Nature

The volcano eruption covered several airfields with volcanic dust,
destroying many aircraft, including several B-25s.

The typhoons in the Pacific sank at least 3 destroyers and damaged many
other ships in late 1944.

Ed Kettler                                       [email-masked]

On Tue, 20 Sep 1994, Patrick D Marsden wrote:

> >
> > I was watching the news this morning and I saw that a volcano had erupted
> > at Rabal in New Guina. My question is this:have there been any case of
> > combat being effected by acts of Nature (read God). All that I can think
> > of is the mulberry harbor at Normandy being wrecked by a hurricane (?) in
> > the fall of 1994. thanks-Drew
> >
> > Drew Halevy
> > Department of History
> > University of Arkansas
> > [email-masked]
> >
>
> Didn't Vesuvius (Southern Italy on the Bay of Naples) go active in
> 1944?  I'm not sure how violent the eruption was or how it affected
> the Italian campaign.
>
> patrick
> [email-masked]
>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 20 Sep 1994 19:55:43 -0400
From:    Pascal Sauve <[email-masked]>
Subject: Aftermath of Market Garden???

I've been reading lots of posts about the WW II military operation
"Market Garden".We do now that the besieged British 1st Corps was
basically mangled to bits and the rest were taken prisonner.What was the
next Allied move? Did they attack again or did they simply outflank
Arnhem and crossed another bridge somewhere else.If they did,what kind of
opposition were they meeting (if any at all?)

Pascal Sauve,Bsc (History)
University of Montreal
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 20 Sep 1994 20:53:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 21 SEP 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
THURSDAY, 21 SEPTEMBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  P-61, Northrop Black Widow

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 7 B-25s hit Man Mawn and 1 other
bombs Indaw; 21 B-24s haul fuel to Liuchow, China. 170+ other transport
sorties are flown to various terminal points in CBI.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 27 B-25s pound Kiyang, Yungming,
Lingling and areas to the N, and the area W of Chuanhsien; 100+ P-40s and
P-51s attack buildings, river shipping, troops, horses, and supplies at
numerous points especially around Sinshih, Kiyang, Wuchou, and Isuho.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 644: 486 bombers are
dispatched to hit targets in W Germany using PFF methods; 2 bombers are lost:
  1. 154 B-17s are dispatched to hit the synthetic oil plant at Ludwigshafen/
Opau (147); 2 others hit targets of opportunity; 54 B-17s are damaged. Escort
is provided by 39 P-38s and P-51s; 1 fighter is lost.
  2. 153 B-17s are dispatched to hit the marshalling yard at Mainz (141); 52
B-17s are damaged; 2 airmen are WIA. Escort is provided by 34 of 35 P-51s
without loss.
  3. 179 B-24s are dispatched to hit the marshalling yard at Koblenz (144);
12 others hit targets of opportunity; 2 B-24s are lost, 3 damaged beyond
repair and 83 damaged; 15 airmen are KIA, 3 WIA and 18 MIA. Escort is
provided by 44 of 46 P-51s; 1 P-51 is lost (pilot MIA).
  90 P-47s and P-51s support the First Allied Airborne Army C-47s dropping
supplies and paratroops of the Polish 1st Brigade near Driel, the Netherlands;
they encounter about 50 Luftwaffe fighters, claiming 20-0-2; 3 P-47s are
lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 2 damaged; 3 pilots are MIA.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In Germany, 79 B-26s and A-20s bomb
marshalling yards at Gerolstein, Pronsfeld, and Ebrang; fighters escort
the bombers, fly armed reconnaissance over the Bonn, Koblenz, Karlsruhe,
Cologne, and the Strasbourg area, and support the US First and Third Armies
in W Germany and E France; the IX Tactical Air Command is exceptionally
effective in aiding the V Corps withdrawal from the Wallendorf bridgehead;
during the evening IX Air Defense Command fighters patrol the Luxembourg-
Chaumont, France area. In Belgium, the 33d Photographic Reconnaissance
Squadron, 67th Tactical Reconnaissance Group, moves from Toussus le Noble,
France to Gosselies with F-5s. In France, HQ 323d Bombardment Group (Medium)
and the 453d, 454th, 455th and 456th Bombardment Squadrons (Medium) move from
Lessay to Chartres with B-26s; HQ 354th Fighter Group moves from Gael to
Orconte; the 355th and 356th Fighter Squadrons, 354th Fighter Group, move
from Gael to Orconte with P-47s; the 410th Fighter Squadron, 373d Fighter
Group, moves from St-James to Reims with P-47s; the 584th Bombardment
Squadron (Medium), 394th Bombardment Group (Medium), moves from Tour-en-
Bassin to Bricy with B-26s; and the 670th Bombardment Squadron (Light), 416th
Bombardment Group (Light), moves from Wethersfield, England to Melun with
A-20s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 345 B-17s and B-24s attack
marshalling yards at Debreczen and Bekescsaba, Hungary, the railroad at Brod,
Yugoslavia and in Hungary, highway bridges at Baja, in the Kiskore area, and at
Tiszafured, plus the Novi Sad, Yugoslavia railroad bridge; 42 P-38s dive-bomb
the Osijek, Yugoslavia marshalling yard; other fighters escort the bombers. 2
C-47s, with 8 P-51s escorting, evacuate Fifteenth AF personnel from
Yugoslavia to Italy.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, bad weather and
unserviceable landing grounds cancel all operations; and the 12th
Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, 3d Photographic Group (Reconnaissance),
moves from Follonica to Florence/Peretola with F-5s (a detachment is
operating from Malignano). In Corsica, HQ 42d Bombardment Wing (Medium) moves
from Elmas, Sardinia to Borgo; HQ 319th Bombardment Group (Medium) and the
439th and 440th  Bombardment Squadrons move from Decimomannu, Sardinia to
Serragia with B-26s; and the 34th, 37th and 432d Bombardment Squadrons
(Medium), 17th Bombardment Group (Medium), move from Villacidro, Sardinia to
Poretta with B-26s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 5 B-24s on armed reconnaissance and training
missions from Saipan Island bomb Marcus and Pagan Islands. B-25s, based in
the Gilbert Islands, strike Ponape Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: B-24s attack Laha
on Amboina Island and Kairatoe Airfield on Celebes Island and shipping in
Piroe Bay. On Celebes Island, P-38s and B-25s hit Menado, Tomohon, the Kakas
rest camp, small craft near Belang Island, Kairatoe, and Namlea Airfield on
Buru Island, and a barge off Kaoe Point, Halmahera Island. In New Guinea,
fighter-bombers hit Windissi and Ransiki and strafe targets of opportunity
near the Orai River; during the night of 21/22 Sep fighter-bombers hit the
Geelvink Bay-Bentoni Bay area; the 13th Troop Carrier Squadron, 403d Troop
Carrier Group, moves from Espiritu Santo Island, New Hebrides Islands to Biak
Island with C-47s (squadron is operating from Los Negros Island); the
detachment of the 421st Night Fighter Squadron, V Fighter Command, operating
from Wakde Island with P-38s and P-61s, returns to base at Nadzab.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

21/0055Z SEP

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 20 Sep 1994 21:17:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acts of Nature in WWII

 >I think we can leave out non-WWII ref., those can go on the Mil. Hist. List.
 >Vesuvius erupted March 23, 1944, and causedsevere damage to a lot of
 >Allied a/c in the area.  There are numerous Air Force photos of the
 >flightline of a nearby base where B-25s lay mangled and burned.
 >I don't have any handy ref. to how it affected ground ops.

I have a date of 22 Mar 44.  The nearest airfield was Pompeii
Airdrome home of the 340th Bombardment Group (Medium), Twelfth Air
Force.  Chunks of red hot rock the size of golf balls, and later
the size of American footballs, rained down on the field and all
88 group B-25s were destroyed.  As one wag put it, the 340th was
the only group to lose its aircraft to enemy rocks.  The troops
had been evacuated without serious casualties and by 27 Mar they
were back in operation with six B-25s from Paestum Airfield.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 20 Sep 1994 22:09:25 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: PELELIU

Thanks for your posting, Josh. It is very difficult to conceive of the fact
that we who fought in WWII have grandchildren, many of whom have no notion of
what went on in WWII, what the conflict was about, and most elements concerning
the fighting. I'm pleased that this list has been educational for you and other
members, and I'm pleased that old fuds like me can contribute. Cheers, Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 20 Sep 1994 22:09:32 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: PELELIU

Thanks, Henry, for that bit of info. I have a feeling that the media--both
press and TV--shot their wad covering Normandy, and for them nothing else
happened. Re/Enola Gay, it has been a cause celebre in DC, and especially
amongst the veterans groups, which have been mobilized to ensure that a
correct, not a PC, interpretation be given to the end of the war. According to
one story in the Times several weeks ago, emanating from the Hiroshima museum,
for the Allies, the war ended with the opening of the Enola Gay's bomb bay
doors; for the Japanese, that was when the war began. Since I am somewhat
involved with the affair I cannot comment other than to say we are keeping a
close eye on the matter. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 20 Sep 1994 21:42:48 -0500
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: NOST: CAF & Miss Mitchell

In message World War II Discussion List writes:
> For Robert Granvin-
>         I'm planning on attending the Confederate Air Force Annual Air Show
> at the Midland, Texas headquarters in October.  Any chance we'll meet up
> with you and Miss Mitchell there?

Our entire flying fleet will be in attendance -- Miss Mitchell, our PBY-6A
Catalina, Harvard Mk IV (AT-6G), Vultee BT-13 and Stinson L-5.

Unfortunately, while perhaps 20 or more of our members will be in attendance,
I will be one of those staying behind and holding down the fort (not by my
choice, but by the checkbooks choice...)

If the show follows the form of last year, get there early so you can get to
the bomber ramp.  Once the show starts, the bomber area gets sterilized because
the aircraft are moving in and out a lot.  This happens around 1:00.  I've seen
it both ways where the ramp gets opened up again after the show and where it
doesn't (my guess is that on Saturdays, the ramp opens up again at 4:30, but
on Sunday it doesn't because a lot of aircraft depart on Sunday...)

As usual, of course, I'd be interested in hearing about anyone that happens to
make it to Midland and their impressions of Miss Mitchell (the PBY has a long
way to go to get to our standards).  Of course, I'm also hoping everyone
spends all their cash at the Southern Minnesota Wing PX, also... :-)

Wish I could personally make it this year.  Sometimes some things just don't
work out as planned.  :-(

--
Robert J. Granvin
Southern Minnesota Wing Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 19 Sep 1994 to 20 Sep 1994
*************************************************