Subject: WWII-L Digest - 5 Sep 1994 to 6 Sep 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 1994 00:00:29 -0400

There are 60 messages totalling 1713 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. FREE FRENCH FORCES (5)
  2. ADMIN:  The NO MAIL option
  3. INF: 50 Years Ago - 06-SEP-1944
  4. INF: USN Chronology 09-06-94 (3)
  5. WEAP: 12"-gunned ARKANSAS
  6. WEAP:Kamikaze torpedoes
  7. Liberation of Paris
  8. U.S. 'war plans' for the Pacific
  9. INF: 50 Years Ago - 07-SEP-1944
 10. Aerial Ops, Last Day of War (2)
 11. MEDIA: SMITHSONIAN
 12. Speer (2)
 13. ADMIN: PLEASE RE...
 14. HIST: Speer (2)
 15. 12"-gunned ARKANSAS
 16. WEAP: Atomic Bombs
 17. Culpability of Speer (2)
 18. *Speer* designed/nstructed Holocaust/extermination facilities?
 19. INF: USN Chronology 0 (2)
 20. P51 & Chickens
 21. HOL: Also today 50 years ago (4)
 22. U.S. "WAR PLANS" F (2)
 23. Albert Speer (4)
 24. Any SHIP PLANS available on Byrd?
 25. Zemke
 26. (War Crimes) U.S. 'war plans' for the Pacific
 27. U.S.S. North Carolina
 28. U.S.S North Carolina, part II
 29. Two recent Schiffer books
 30. 50TH: ROBERT CAPA-GOOD
 31. THE OTHER WAY AROUND?
 32. ROMMEL and/or "The Grief"
 33. WEAP: KAMIKAZE TORPEDO
 34. EX-ADMIN: INFLAMATORY
 35. EX-ADMIN: INFLAMAT
 36. [INF] USAAF 7 SEP 44
 37. HIST: Albert Speer
 38. GEN: INFORMATION ON AIR FORCE HEADQUARTERS IN AFRICA?
 39. Speer and Concentration Camps (long)
 40. The first victims of Nazi gas chambers. (2)
 41. ADMIN: I'm back

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 00:26:40 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: FREE FRENCH FORCES

One of the stories, or should I say myths, which may almost be true is the fact
that Ho Chi Minh was in contact or worked with an Army OSS officer, and Ho
asked for U.S. recognition, or somesuch, in return for which he would become a
U.S. ally, but only if the French colonial power over Indo-China was removed. I
know that there is much more to this, but I don't have it at hand and I dredged
the depths of my memory to bring this fact up. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 02:08:25 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: ADMIN:  The NO MAIL option

Joe,

     You *could* set an "offender" to NO MAIL for a week,
*announcing* to the list you are doing so, of course.

     If others think you have been unjust, they can let you
know, appropriately/back-channel.

     However you plan on controlling list content, it should
be judicious and BALANCED, as I am sure you agree.

Lou

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 04:19:04 -0400
From:    Jeff Olson <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 06-SEP-1944

JD.Army Helicopter School - The Army has established the first military
.helicopter training school at Freeman Field, Ind.

Can anyone provide a location for Freeman Field in Indiana?  Close to
Terre Haute?

Jeff
---
. 1st 1.11 #1611 . [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 01:29:33 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 09-06-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
09/06 Wed. Aircraft from fast carrier force (Vice Adm. M. A.
           Mitscher) composed of 16 carriers, and cruisers and
           destroyers strike Japanese aircraft installations and
           defenses on Yap, Ulithi, and the Palau Islands in the
           western Caroline Islands group. Attacks continue
           through 8 September.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 5 Sep 1994 23:09:13 EST
From:    "CARL WERNKE (TCWERNC@VCCSCENT)" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: 12"-gunned ARKANSAS

 To: Multiple recipients of list WWII-L([email-masked])
 In-Reply-To: ([email-masked])From "CARL WERNKE" at
                                                    Sep 3, 94 00:31:49

 On Mon, 5 Sep 1994 12:53:07 -0500 LOu Coatney wrote:
 > I assume ARKANSAS was kept in service presumably at some risk to her crew)
 > to use up the remainder/surplus of 12" shells. I wonder how many were duds.

 Lou, I have no record regarding ARKANSAS' duds. However, I do know the "Old
 Girl," at 0600 on 16 February 1945, opened fire on Japanese strong points on
 Iwo Jima as she lay off the island's west coast. The old BB bombarded the
 island through the 19th, and remained in the fire support area to provide
 cover during the evening hours. During her time off the gun-line, ARKANSAS
 shelled numerous Japanese positions, in support of the bitter struggle by the
 marines to root out and destroy the stubborn enemy resistance. She cleared the

 she cleared the waters off Iwo Jima on 7 March to return to Ulithi. After
 arriving at that atol on 10 March, the battleship *rearmed*, provisioned, and
 fueled in prepariation for her next operation on the invasion of Okinawa.----
 Getting underway (u/w) on 21 March, ARKANSAS began her preliminary shelling of
 Japanese positions on Okinawa on 25 March, some days ahead of the assault
 troops which began wading ashore on 1 April. The Japanese soon began an aerial
 attack, and ARKANSAS fought off several kamikazes. For 46 days, ARKANSAS
 delivered fire support for the invasion of Okinawa. On 14 May, the ship
 arrived at Apra Harbor, Guam, to await further assignment.

 After a month at Apra Harbor, part ofwhich she spent in drydock, ARKANSAS got
 u/w on 12 June for Leyte Gulf. She anchored there  on 16 June, and remained in
 Philippine waters until the war drew to a close in August. ---ARKANSAS
 received four battle stars for her World War II service.

 Material obtained from [email-masked] (Larry & Kim Jewell)
 Message-Id: ([email-masked]), dated Thu, 12 May 94
 10:28:36 EST.

   Carl Wernke
   [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 01:34:45 EST
From:    "CARL WERNKE (TCWERNC@VCCSCENT)" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP:Kamikaze torpedoes

 To: Multiple recipients of list WWII-L([email-masked])

 John Davis ([email-masked])
 John Riegsecker ([email-masked])

 Messages Mon, 5 Sep 1994 08:38:06 -0700

 John Davis stated:
 > I had never heard of such thing (Kaiten).
 > Were these things for real ? Was any ship ever sunk with one ?

 The production of oxygen torpedoes during the war was insufficient for the
 requirements of the submarine service. (Thus, an accurate statistical survey
 of the effectiveness of Japanese torpedoes during the war cannot be compiled
 from Allied sources of information, unless the type of torpedo used in every
 attack is known.)

 The striking power of Japanese submarines was greatly curtailed by the fact
 that many of them were forced to transport stores in forward areas.

 _Kaiten_

 While commander of the Suicide Torpedo School at OTSUSHIMA, CDR Mitsuma
 Itakura trained about 200volunteers as KAITEN pilots. Each man made about
 20 runs in a KAITEN over a period of three months.

_Effectiveness of KAITEN_:- Itakura could not offer accurate information on the
 effect of KAITEN attacks, but he thought that the following vessels had been
 sunk by  these torpedoes:
                          2 or 3 aircraft carriers
                          2 battleships
                          25 or 30 merchant ships
                          4 or 6 destroyers

  The above information was obtained from  JAPANESE TORPEDOES AND TUBES
  ARTICLE 2   AIRCRAFT TORPEDOES  "Intelligent Targets Japan" (DNI) Of
  4 SEPT 1945  Fascicle O-1, Target O-01  MARCH 1946   U.S.Naval Technical
  Mission To Japan ---page 424.

  Kennosuke Torisu, assisted by Masataka Chihaya,wrote (p.525) the following
  comments in _THE JAPANESE NAVY IN WORLD WAR II_, Editor and Translator of
  of the Second Edition, Dr.David C.Evans, Naval Institute Press, Annapolis,MD,
  1986.  Quote:
         Note 6. Only a few successes claimed for the KAITEN have been
                 substantiated by later research. KAITEN from I-47 sank the
                 Mississinewa (AO-59) at Ulithi. The I-53 released Kaiten that
                 blew apart the Underhill (DE-682) in the Philippine Sea.
                 Aside from these two vessels sunk, results were meager. The
                 destroyer escort Gilligan (DE-508) was damaged by KAITEN, as
                 were the repair ship Endymion (ARL-9), the attack transport
                 Marathon (APA-200), and possibly the destroyer Lowery
                 (DD-770). See Rohwer,op. cit., pp. 286-91 As Rohwer notes
                 on p.xii, "The real cause of the large overestimates of
                 success was the difficulty the U-boats had in getting the
                 necessary data following an attack. . . . The U-boat
                 captains were prone to classify almost all torpedo
                 detonations heard as hits, and all manner of acoustic
                 noise as 'sinking sounds."

   Carl Wernke
   [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 11:46:24 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Liberation of Paris

Lying in bed last Sunday morning, I was listening to the excellent
(and immortal) Alistair Cooke transmitting his weekly "Letter from
America". He dwelt on the conflict over allied strategy 1944-45
vis-a-vis
advancing to Berlin on a narrow front or pushing the Germans back
at all points.

He mentioned too, the liberation of Paris as being the most important
capital liberated by the forces of democracy and also that sections of the
American press had drawn the conclusion that the liberation of Paris
was inevitable because soldiers of a democracy were
ultimately bound to triumph over soldiers of dictatorships because they
were more motivated etc. He then quoted a rebuttal to that argument
but named the source of the quote at the end - from William F. Buckley,
the implication being that WFB is not a chap to be listened to very
much?

A couple of questions:
- who is WFB and why might his opinions not be very popular?
- is it true that sections of the US press made these statements,
and has anyone studied the performance of fighting men in relation
to the regime they are fighting for?

Steve Baldwin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 07:01:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: FREE FRENCH FORCES

 >One of the stories, or should I say myths, which may almost be true is the fact
 >that Ho Chi Minh was in contact or worked with an Army OSS officer, and Ho
 >asked for U.S. recognition, or somesuch, in return for which he would become a
 >U.S. ally, but only if the French colonial power over Indo-China was removed. I
 >know that there is much more to this, but I don't have it at hand and I dredged
 >the depths of my memory to bring this fact up. Ben Frank

My wife and I were in London a number of years ago and I remember reading an
article in the magazine section of the LONDON TIMES.  The article was about
the British activities in French Indochina (Vietnam today) at the immediate
end of the war.  According to the article, there were no French troops
available to accept the Japanese surrender in the country so the Brits went
in.   Unfortunately, there were not enough Brit troops available so the
Brits gave the Japanese troops their weapons back and used them as
policemen.  There was a photograph of a Brit officer standing in front of
several ranks of armed Japanese troops giving them orders.  I wonder what
the local population thought of all this?

It is also my understanding that FDR had warned the Brits and French
against reestablishing their colonial empires in Africa and the Far East
but of course they didn't listen.  Has anyone else heard of this?

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 07:32:40 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: U.S. 'war plans' for the Pacific

Hello, Alan!

Hope you had a great weekend.

> I understand the reference to Doenitz,... but what complicity does
> Albert Speer have with war crimes? As I understand it, he was an
> inventor and exec in mfg.

    True, but AS also used forced labor, without much attention or
care as to their continued good health, in his construction projects
during the war.
    The only thing that saved him was the outright disobedience and
countermanding of Hitler's draconian decree to destroy everything
within the borders of Germany that could be used as sustenance for
the enemy.
    But, to my way of thinking, Speer should have been hanged or
spent the rest of his life behind bars for the use of forced labor
from the Occupied Territories to build war-related projects. My
opinion of course. Your thoughts or any others?

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 05:50:15 -0700
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 07-SEP-1944

On 07-SEP-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The US 1st Army and British 2nd Army reach the Albert Canal in
Belgium. The 113th Cavalry Group (US XIX Corps) crosses the canal near
Hasselt. The 3rd Armoured Division (VII Corps, 1st Army) reaches Liege. The US
VI Corps enters Besancon.

Eastern Front - The Russians have penetrated into the eastern Carpathians,
almost to the Hungarian border. Bulgaria declares war on Germany, as the
occupation by the 3rd Ukraine Front continues.

Italian Front - The Germans withdraw from their positions in the hills north
and northeast of Florence.

Burma/China - The Chinese 8th Army completes mopping up in the Sung Shan zone
on the Salween front. The battle in this sector has cost the Chinese nearly
8,000 dead. The Japanese garrison of 2,000 has been wiped out.

The Homefront
-------------
Pearl Harbor Investigators In Hawaii - The Army board of inquiry for the Pearl
Harbor attack has arrived in Honolulu and is expected to hold hearings for two
weeks.

Lucille Ball Asks For Divorce - Actress Lucille Ball has filed a suit for
divorce in Los Angeles from Desi Arnaz, Cuban film actor now in the Army,
charging cruelty.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 07:50:46 CDT
From:    Tim not Timothy Scherrer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Aerial Ops, Last Day of War

I know a gentleman who claims his father was a P-51 pilot in Europe, and
that his father was the last USAAF pilot to be shot down over Europe.
The last name is Hoelscher--his son is a USAFR LtCol.  Can anyone
confirm or deny this??

TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 08:55:31 -0500
From:    Drew Halevy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: SMITHSONIAN

If I remember correctly, there is a B-29 fuselage (intact) at Kirkland
Air Force Base in Albquerque, NM.-drew

Drew Halevy
Department of History
University of Arkansas
[email-masked]

On Mon, 5 Sep 1994, Ben Frank wrote:

> I don't know why you are surprised that only the front fuselage of the Enola
> Gay is being exhibited. Have you ever seen the size of the B-29 and also the
> room available for such exhibits at the Air and Space Museums? Ben Frank
>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 09:48:15 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Speer

Prof. Terry Moore wrote,...

>    But, to my way of thinking, Speer should have been hanged or
>spent the rest of his life behind bars for the use of forced labor
>from the Occupied Territories to build war-related projects. My
>opinion of course. Your thoughts or any others?

Well,... since being informed that he constructed the death camps I have
no recourse but to conclude that he should have been shot/hung. That showed
complicity with full knowledge of an entirely horrendous act. A colleague
on campus said to me that it was no different from Colt Mfg. turning out
weapons today. I told her that she'd have a tough time defending her family
or business with a gas shower, or a large oven. ('xtra $.02) 'Grizzly subject.

Thanks for the input... -Al

Alan G. Wild
Admin. Computing
University of Rhode Island
Kingston, R.I.  02881

I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 09:05:01 -0500
From:    Drew Halevy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: USN Chronology 09-06-94

> 1944
> 09/06 Wed. Aircraft from fast carrier force (Vice Adm. M. A.
>            Mitscher) composed of 16 carriers, and cruisers and

Wow! The idea of having 16 carriers in one task force. imagaine what it
would be like for a pre-war Navy person to see the Navy build up to such
a scale in three years that one task force would have 16 carriers!? I
have always been impressed by the photo of a lagooon somewhere in the
South Pacific (around 1944/45) where the carriers simply stretch to the
horizion. It boggles the mind that so many underestimated the industrial
capacity of the US in 1940/41. Just a thought-Drew

> Theron P. Keller
> Logicon, Inc.
> Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
> [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 09:08:08 -0500
From:    Drew Halevy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: FREE FRENCH FORCES

>
> It is also my understanding that FDR had warned the Brits and French
> against reestablishing their colonial empires in Africa and the Far East
> but of course they didn't listen.  Has anyone else heard of this?

I am not sure about all overseas colonies, but FDR was very against the
French returning to Indochina (Cochin-china, Annam and Tokin i think)
since he felt the area had suffered under French control, and that it was
worse off in 1945 than it had been in 1845, when the French first got
there-drew
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 09:09:59 EST
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: ADMIN: PLEASE RE...

I agree with direct post posting of inflammatory remarks to the individual
targeted.  Keep them off the list, not matter who the poster is.  I am on
this list to learn, to reminisce, and occasionally to share a little bit of
my knowledge (OK, that part is pretty rare) but I am not interested in
flame wars.  I have quit too many lists because a few individuals couldn't
decide what should be private and what is list-appropriate.
*****************************************************
(Roger) Brad Coon             The right to defend
[email-masked]          one's self and one's
[email-masked]    family against harm and
                              injustice is the most
                              basic civil right.

Proud to be a member of America's largest civil rights
group, the National Rifle Association.
******************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 10:37:08 -0400
From:    Warren Thompson <[email-masked]>
Subject: HIST: Speer

To Alan Wild et al: Please post documentation for the claim that Speer built
the death camps.

-- Warren Thompson
LEBANON VALLEY COLLEGE
Annville PA 17003

[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 09:50:06 EST
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: 12"-gunned ARKANSAS

While I don't recall the particulars, I believe that the Arkansas was
to have been replaced by new construction had the war not begun.  As
any BB is a very expensive ship to keep in service, I suspect that
considerations of available stores of 12" shells would have been
secondary.  However, as Carl has pointed out, she did her duty as
a fire-support, bombardment vessel.
Her sister the Wyoming had been partially dearmed as a training
ship and I assume that she would still be using up 12" rounds as
well.
*****************************************************
(Roger) Brad Coon             The right to defend
[email-masked]          one's self and one's
[email-masked]    family against harm and
                              injustice is the most
                              basic civil right.

Proud to be a member of America's largest civil rights
group, the National Rifle Association.
******************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 10:34:58 -0500
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: Atomic Bombs

I didn't see the recent movie about the Indianapolis, but I do remember
that it was sunk after it had carried one of the two atomic bombs to
Hawaii.  My question to the list is: how did that bomb get to Saipan and
how did the second one make it from the U.S. to Saipan?  I know they
used the Indianapolis because they thought a battleship was too slow and
a destroyer would not have been secure enough against attack.  I assume
(probably wrongly) that they did not want to fly the bombs out to
Saipan.  So how did they do it?
Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 11:54:19 -0400
From:    "Benjamin B. Weber" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Culpability of Speer

Speer also, I believe, admitted during his trial that his supposed
lack of knowledge regarding the death camps was no grounds for innocence.
He was in a position to know what what going on and should, therefore, have
made it his business.  Ignorance is no defense for someone in
that powerful a position.

Benjamin B. Weber
Univ. of Vermont
[email-masked]

On Tue, 6 Sep 1994, Robert T. Moore wrote:

> Hello, Alan!
>
> Hope you had a great weekend.
>
> > I understand the reference to Doenitz,... but what complicity does
> > Albert Speer have with war crimes? As I understand it, he was an
> > inventor and exec in mfg.
>
>     True, but AS also used forced labor, without much attention or
> care as to their continued good health, in his construction projects
> during the war.
>     The only thing that saved him was the outright disobedience and
> countermanding of Hitler's draconian decree to destroy everything
> within the borders of Germany that could be used as sustenance for
> the enemy.
>     But, to my way of thinking, Speer should have been hanged or
> spent the rest of his life behind bars for the use of forced labor
> from the Occupied Territories to build war-related projects. My
> opinion of course. Your thoughts or any others?
>
>     Terry
>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 10:58:52 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: *Speer* designed/nstructed Holocaust/extermination facilities?

This is the first I've heard that *Speer* designed the
  extermination facilities.

What is the source for it?

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 16:18:00 UTC
From:    "Edward S. Miller" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: USN Chronology 0

Theron Keller writes:
  > Wow! The idea of having 16 carriers in one task force...  I have always
been impressed by the photo of a lagooon somewhere in the South Pacific
(around 1944/45) where the carriers simply stretch to the horizion.

  The famous photos were taken in Majuro, Eniwetok and later Ulithi.

  It took 3 years to build a fleet carrier in WWII, reduced to a bit over 2
years near the end of the war.  Thanks to the 2-Ocean Navy Act of summer
1940, new Essex-class CVs (and the 9 CVLs converted from cruiser hulls) were
ready for Nimitz's big push by late 1943.  If the US had delayed the naval
expansion until after Pearl Harbor, the central Pacific drive would have
been delayed until 1945.  In that case, the main axis of attack might have
been via MacArthur's SW Pacific theater, or possibly even the CBI theater,
where carriers were not vital.
  Edward S. Miller    Stamford CT    [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 13:54:51 EDT
From:    Patrick D Marsden <[email-masked]>
Subject: P51 & Chickens

                          Original Message
   ---------------------------------------------------------------
   I read your post to the WWII-L regarding your grandfather's
   misadventure with the P-51 ingesting a chicken.  I'm quite
   intrigued, as both of my parents grew up on farms in rural
   Hardin county, KY, near Ft. Knox, in the 1930s-40s.  Can you
   recall or ask where your grandfather's farm was located, and
   can you possibly come up with a date of the incident?  I would
   certainly like to ask my parents if they recall the incident,
   and to see if it made the local newspaper at the time.  My
   father was born in 1930, and my mother in 1933, so they would
   have been old enough to recall it.
   ---------------------------------------------------------------

 The incident I mentioned took place at a farm near
 Battletown (ville?), KY.  According to my father, who
 was about six at the time, the town is between "Big Bend"
 and "Little Bend", two bends on the Ohio river west of
 Louiville.  The town itself consisted of a few houses
 built around the intersection of two major roads.  It did
 make the local paper since my father remembered his mother
 saving the article.  He doesn't recall the paper or the date.

 After visiting with my father this past weekend and telling him
 of the posting, he's interested to see if anyone out there
 has heard of the incident.  I've now almost got him convinced to
 finally get a modem and get on the list.

 Patrick

 [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 10:36:06 PDT
From:    Anthony Anderson <[email-masked]>
Subject: HOL: Also today 50 years ago

Early morning September 6, 1944 a train reached Auschwitz. It had
left  three days earlier from Westerbork, the Dutch transit  camp
on  the  German border. This was the 64th (and  final)  train  to
bring  Dutch  Jews from Westerbork to Auschwitz,  On  this  final
transport were 1019 people: 498 men, 442 women, and 79  children.
In  this  group  of people were Otto Frank,  his  wife,  and  two
daughters;  on August 4th they (along with four other  Jews)  had
been  arrested  at  their hiding place on  the  Prinsengracht  in
Amsterdam. Once in Auschwitz, all transportees were subjected  to
"Selektion" on the railroad platform.  258 men and 212 women were
admitted  to Auschwitz-Birkenau; the remaining people  (including
all of the children) were sent to the gas chambers. Otto  Frank's
younger daughter, Anne, looking somewhat older than her 15 years,
was  admitted  as an adult. Hermann van Pels ("Mr. Van  Daan"  in
Anne's  diary) was among those who were gassed, the first one  in
their group to die.

Anthony Anderson
Government Documents Department
Doheny Memorial Library
University of Southern California
Los Angeles, CA

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 12:57:15 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Speer

Hello, Alan!

Thanks for your note. I had a chance to get to know one of two Signal
Corps photographers who photographed the entire proceedings of the
Nuremberg War Crimes Trials, and his opinion was that "More should
have been hung." That is always debatable, but, although I appreciate
Speer's memoirs, his knowledge, as you point out, that he knew what
was going on and did nothing to try and stop it, put him in the same
boat as his colleague Fritz Sauckel, who was hanged. Speer simply
carried out orders as anyone else in Hitler's Reich. Only when faced
with catastrophe and the prospect of being the agent to effectively
destroy Germany, did he take matters into his own hands.

Thanks again for your note, Alan, and all the best.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 13:10:04 -0500
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: USN Chronology 0

This discussion of carriers brings to mind a "what if" that I have wondered
about in the past.  Maybe someone on the list would care to speculate or
knows of a wargame that has examined the situation.

What if the Japanese Imperial Fleet had decided to make a maximum response
to the invasion of Tarawa in November 1943, instead of the invasion of the
Marianas in June 1944?  (Ignore the fact that the Marianas were more
important and that Tarawa was only an outlying garrison.)  With hindsight,
we now know the American forces would become much stronger in the 6 months
that followed Tarawa, while the Japanese would not be adding substantial
numbers of ships (again, something the Japanese would not have known).
Although I don't have information in front of me, I believe the two forces
would have been much more evenly matched in November 1943.

Although I don't think there is any correct answer, I am curious if anyone
has an idea what the relative orders of battle might have been, and also
speculations on whether this could have delayed Japan's defeat.

P.S., in a completely different matter, does anyone have any knowledge of
the CD-ROM games coming out in Japan in which Japan wins the war?  I saw
something about them in magazine, along the lines of "the Japanese fleet
visits the comfort women in south east asian ports, goes out and defeats
the Americans in the Marianas and wins the war".
Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 13:11:44 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: U.S. "WAR PLANS" F

Hello, Ben!

I will give you my two cents' worth on this. I am no expert on the
background of the judges who heard cases in de-Nazification courts,
but as I mentioned earlier, their brand of justice in the late 1940's
was harsher than those who sat in judgement at Nuremberg. I feel
the de-Nazification courts acted more harshly, perhaps more out of
guilt and a desire to expiate their sins under Hitler and for other
political reasons. Rightly or wrongly, that is the way it
was. I certainly don't excuse any of them for their activities that
in retrospect was wrong. However, my point is that these de-
Nazification courts meted out justice more harshly, for whatever
reason and motivation, than those who sat in judgement at Nuremberg,
especially to those whom the Allies acquitted.

hat makes you think that German courts run by judges who worked
hand in glove
> with the Nazis would have been the epitome of fair-minded justice?

    Please see above. No, not fair-minded justice, but justice
nonetheless.

    If you are
> of that mind, I would like to know what you smoke. Ben Frank

    No more than anyone else.

    Thanks, Ben! Your thoughts?

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 19:12:27 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Albert Speer

The current discussion on Albert Speer is revealing. For a man who, according
to some on the list, was responsible for key elements that made the holocaust
possible, he affected a remarkable rehabilitation into public life -
his book "Inside the Third Reich" is well-known, and I can remember seeing
many interviews by him on television before his death. He presented
himself articulately and appeared to be, when compared with his more
notorious contemporaries, relatively "clean". If my
memory serves me correctly, he was, at various times, Hitler's
Armaments Minister and also something to do with architecture and
heritage? Can anyone fill out the missing gaps as to the dates of
his appointments and also the year of his birth & passing...?

Steve Baldwin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 13:14:02 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Culpability of Speer

Hello, Ben!

> Speer also, I believe, admitted during his trial that his supposed
> lack of knowledge regarding the death camps was no grounds for innocence.
> He was in a position to know what what going on and should, therefore, have
> made it his business.  Ignorance is no defense for someone in
> that powerful a position.

    You are absolutely right, and Speer knew, perhaps more than
anyone through his position, what was going on, and yet did nothing
to stop it.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 13:34:39 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Aerial Ops, Last Day of War

Hello, Tim!

That name sounds familiar to me. It seems I have corresponded with
someone by that name who was in the USAAF. I will check and get back
to you.

    Terry

> I know a gentleman who claims his father was a P-51 pilot in Europe, and
> that his father was the last USAAF pilot to be shot down over Europe.
> The last name is Hoelscher--his son is a USAFR LtCol.  Can anyone
> confirm or deny this??
>
> TAS
>
> ************************************************************************
> *  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
> *  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
> *  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
> *  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
> *  ID# [email-masked]                             *
> ************************************************************************
>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 13:41:22 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Any SHIP PLANS available on Byrd?

Larry, Bob Granvin, anybody:

I believe we have various databases describing aircraft and
  battleships on Internet, now.  (I *think* DICTIONARY OF
  AMERICAN NAVAL FIGHTING SHIPS may be on somewhere, as well.)

Reading P.C. Coker's *highly recommended* BUILDING WARSHIP
  MODELS (1974), I note he states that whereas private authors'
  model plans must be eyed critically and sometimes distrusted
  -- which I can verify -- the *official* ship plans are
  exactly that(!).

Would there be any chance of the official ship plans being
  scanned onto an FTP-able Byrd-like database?  This could be
  a worldwide effort.

(I am having *great* fun, trying to get photos and plans of
  the between-wars Dutch light cruisers JAVA and SUMATRA,
  for example.)

Once these are on, they will be a definitive resource for
  all time.

Lou Coatney, Naval Model Architect at Large

x
Incidentally, Is there any *naval* history usergroup going?

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 20:43:26 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Albert Speer

On Tue, 6 Sep 1994, Stephen Baldwin wrote:

> The current discussion on Albert Speer is revealing. For a man who, according
> to some on the list, was responsible for key elements that made the holocaust
> possible,

I would like to hear more about that before I accept it as fact. First
time I (and most of us) hear that...

> he affected a remarkable rehabilitation into public life -

Probably his abortive attempt to kill Hitler also played a role in this.
He planned to kill Hitler by putting poison gas in the ventilation system
of his bunker --- Speer had designed it --- but he didn't; for which
he gave two contradictory explanations: he was either convinced (by
listening in to conversations) that the people still supported Hitler,
or the inlets of the system were guarded... If I remember well, he
told the first story during preliminary interrogations, and the second
one in the court of Neurenberg.

Vague and suspect as the story is, it probably helped him in court.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 13:48:48 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Albert Speer

Hello, again, Steve!

One other thing just occurred to me. As Hitler's favorite architect,
his later Minister of Armaments and Munitions, taking the place of
Air Force General Fritz Todt, killed in a plane crash in 1943, Speer
became the supreme authority for any construction project carried out
within Germany or its Occupied Territories. For these projects, he
knowingly and condoned the use of slave labor to carry out these
projects. He was a very powerful and influential man who was
answerable only to AH.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 14:07:49 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Zemke

Hello, Jack!

Thanks for that post on "Hub" Zemke. I am so sorry to hear about his
death, and your message was the first of it I had seen. I shall
always consider myself very fortunate to have corresponded with him.

Thanks again.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 15:34:40 -0400
From:    Jack Petrilli <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: FREE FRENCH FORCES

>I am not sure about all overseas colonies, but FDR was very against the
>French returning to Indochina (Cochin-china, Annam and Tokin i think)
>since he felt the area had suffered under French control, and that it was
>worse off in 1945 than it had been in 1845, when the French first got
>there-drew

The American amibivalence about Vietnam might have had its roots here. On
the one hand, the Americans were against colonialism in all its forms, but
on the other hand, they were also against communism. So what were they to do
when the local anti-colonial forces were also communist?  In the early
fifties, they were only able to lend half-hearted support to the French
against Ho Chi Minh because of this ambivalence. They then tried to walk a
tightrope by trying to fill the anti-communist void left by the departing
French (after Diembienphu) but, at the same time, trying to avoid becoming a
colonial presence. We all know what a nightmare this impossible position
became. (ie. Couldn't actually invade the north as this would be outright
colonialism but couldn't leave the south either, as this would be succumbing
to the so-called "Domino effect".

- Jack

(Living in Mississauga but a Habs fan to the end)

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 15:39:01 EST
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: HOL: Also today 50 years ago

        Lets start off by making this part real clear, THIS IS NOT
AN ATTEMPT TO DENY THE HOLOCAUST OR THE ANNE FRANK DIARY.  But I am
curious as to how it is possible to say who died first in any given
gassing or gas chamber.  Are there records that substantiate this.
Many of the stories that I have heard, not only from the Holocaust but
from other terrible events often have the kind of human detail that strikes
me as unlikely to have been recorded no matter how possible or likely
that it might be true.
Just curious,
*****************************************************
(Roger) Brad Coon             The right to defend
[email-masked]          one's self and one's
[email-masked]    family against harm and
                              injustice is the most
                              basic civil right.

Proud to be a member of America's largest civil rights
group, the National Rifle Association.
******************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 15:42:56 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: (War Crimes) U.S. 'war plans' for the Pacific

Hello, Henry!

This is my opinion, but I think Speer was an opportunist whose only
purpose in life was to acquire commissions so that he could utilize
his talents, no matter for whom. During the war, I think more often
than not, Speer had a tendency to look the other way at
unpleasantness, even if he knew he was contributing to it. I
personally do not feel that Speer was misunderstood. He may have
tried to portray himself in this way after the war, but his record
speaks for itself, and I think his knowledge of what went on in
Germany, re the Final Solution, of which he had to know given his
position and knowledge of production figures of every war-related
industry in the country and in Occupied Europe, and his complicity in
the use of forced labor for construction projects and industrial
employment make him a major war criminal who deserved to be hanged.
I don't see Speer being misunderstood in that.

Terry

> Actually,
Speer was an architect and a humanitarian who tried to bring
> joy to the hearts of European children by supplying pyrotechnic displays
> all across Europe in 1944-45. Today he would be a roadie for a rock
> group. Clearly a misunderstood man.
>
> HS
>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 17:04:11 EDT
From:    Patrick D Marsden <[email-masked]>
Subject: U.S.S. North Carolina

 I had the opportunity to visit the U.S.S. North Carolina
 this past weekend in Wilmington.  The tour of the battle-
 ship took about three hours and was well worth the time.
 On the drive home I thought of two questions.

 1)  Back to the Yamato/Iowa debate...  The North Carolina
 had a wonderful fire control center (from an engineering
 point of view).  I was amazed at the number (and size) of
 large analog computers which directed the 16" fire.  How
 did the fire control of the Japanese compare with the U.S.
 and did the Japanese possess analog or mechanical computers
 for fire control?

 2)  On the starboard side of the ship is a ' 5" gun training
 device' which, according to the placcard, was used to train
 the 5" gun crews and find the exact time it took for the loaders
 to transfer the round from the elevator to the breech and fire
 the piece.  The rational was that, again according to the placcard,
 the exact time was needed for setting the fuses since the rounds
 were armed while the round was still below deck.  The implication
 is that rounds were transfered up the elevator to the gun crew
 with the fuse already burning.  Can this be accurate??

 Thanks in advance,

 Patrick
 [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 17:10:05 EDT
From:    Patrick D Marsden <[email-masked]>
Subject: U.S.S North Carolina, part II

 Speaking of the visit to the U.S.S. North Carolina again...
 IMHO the greatest part of the tour was a picture taken a few
 years ago when the crew of the NC met with the crew of
 the Japanese sub I-19.  The picture showed a plaque the
 U.S. captain gave the Japanese captain.  It contained
 an inscription and a bronzed fragment of a Long Lance
 torpedo.

 Paraphrasing the inscription, "The crew of the U.S.S.
 North Carolina, BB-51, hereby return to the crew of the
 IJN I-19 their torpedo with which we collided on
 September <something>, 1943<?>.  We apologize for
 any damage which occured to the torpedo when we ran into
 it."

 My apologies to both crews for any and all inaccuracies
 in the wording but I was laughing when I read it.

 Patrick,
 [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 16:29:21 -0500
From:    Drew Halevy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Albert Speer

I do not know specific facts, but the life of AS is quite interesting. He
became the minister (?) of archicture at a very early age. He design the
Nuremburg stadium, and made plans for buidling a "Nazi City" with grand
sweeping buildings. He was quite young, (31 or 32) when he joined the
inner circle of Hitler. He was also a close associate of Hilter, due it
part to Hitler's self perception of his artistic skills. Speer was also
one of the last to see Hitler alive, having been in the Bunker in late
April 1945. He was able to write his book while in prison with the help
of sympathic guards who provided him with paper and materials and also
sumggled out many of his writing. Of all of those in the docket at
Nuremburg, Speer was percieved by many as "cleaner" than his
co-defendents. -drew

Drew Halevy
Department of History
University of Arkansas
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 16:53:44 EDT
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Two recent Schiffer books

Two Schiffer books have been recently released pertinent to a
couple of the topics of discussion lately on this list.

"Natter Ba 349 and Other German Rocket Fighter Projects" by
Joachim Dressel.  While concentrating on the Ba 349, the Arado
E381, DFS "Eber", Messerschmitt P.1103, Heinkel P.1077 "Julia",
and other similar projects are briefly described.  This book is
similar in size and format to the Squadron/Signal "In Action"
series of books and costs $8.95.

"Mistel:  The Piggy-back Aircraft of the Luftwaffe" by Hans-Peter
Dabrowski.  Concentrates on the better-known Mistels made up of
either Fw 190s or Bf 109s on top of Ju 88 of Ju 188 bombers, but
does mention the British Short/Mayo combination as well as several
photos of various tow aircraft on top of DFS 230 gliders.  The
book costs $9.95.

Announced, but not available as of last week, is a book on the
German aircraft carrier Graff Zeppelin.

Schiffer Books are available through bookstores, hobby shops,
mail order hobby retailers such as Squadron Mail Order, or directly
through Schiffer.  Their address is 77 Lower Valey Road, Atglen,
PA 19310.

Dennis E. Sparks
[email-masked]
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 18:13:47 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: 50TH: ROBERT CAPA-GOOD

John, are we talking about the famous photographer Robert Capra? It was no
surprise when he was killed "in action" in Vietnam, for he had used up all his
other lives when filming the Spanish Civil War, WWII, Korea, and other little
incidents that go on elsewhere in the world. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 18:13:54 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: THE OTHER WAY AROUND?

Lou, I think that you are missing the message entirely. This is a discussion
list dedicated to discussing WWII topics and other ancillary matters. I don't
need any political slant/cant/BS on the board. THAT is what is disruptive and
every message I have seen, whether directed to you or referring to you,
expresses that thought. There must be other boards whose members would enjoy
your rhetoric. I would hope so. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 18:28:20 -0500
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: ROMMEL and/or "The Grief"

Date sent:  6-SEP-1994 18:21:24

Hello:

        I am greatly interested in Field marshal Erwin Rommel and his life.
 IMHO he was the greatest commander of any army that has ever been.  What
little I know of him points out that he was a man of great honor and
integrity and while he fought on the side of the Germans in WWII he was
definately not a NAZI stooge, and would not harm innocents, this was
evidenced when he refused to carry out an order to terminate some of his
jewish prisoners.  I would be greatly appreciative if anyone out there
could give me more information on the Field Marshal.  I am also interested
in any of the equipment that was used in the Afrika Korps, especially the
"Grief", and any tanks they used.  Further I would like to hear from anyone
involved in WWII recreation from a unit with the Afrika Korp, and how you
got your equipment, what you have and how I might get involved.  Thanks for
your time and involvement.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Jamison J. Long (AKA Neuromancer, Flag Admiral, Jamie)  [{Founder T.E.R.R.A}]
[email-masked] or [email-masked]

Alia iacta est.  (The Die is Cast.)  -Iulius Caesar, upon crossing the Rubicon.
   {Also the Motto of T.E.R.R.A. [The Embry-Riddle Roleplaying Assoc.]}
 =============================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 15:19:40 PDT
From:    Anthony Anderson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HOL: Also today 50 years ago

Roger (Brad) poses a most interesting question about
the validity of Holocaust statistics. I cannot begin
to deal with the subject on whole--only with the very specific
situation which I posted earlier. As each train left Westerbork,
a list was compiled of all deportees--containing their names
and ages. All of these lists have been presereved and are
available for inspection at the State Institute for War
Documentation in Amsterdam. Once any transport arrived in
Auschwitz, lists were prepared of all deportees accepted into
the camp. These records have been preserved in a series of
documents entitled Hefte von Auschwitz. No lists were made
of these transportees not admitted (i.e, the ones immediately gassed).
By comparing, however, the lists made in Westerbork with those made in
Auschwitz, it is fairly easy to deduce which specific individuals
survived the initial selection and those who did not.  In
the very specific case of "Van Damm", eye witnesses remembered
him as being led way with those earmarked for the gas chambers.

Anthony Anderson
Los Angeles, CA

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 18:44:16 -0400
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: U.S. "WAR PLANS" F

On Mon, 5 Sep 1994, Ben Frank wrote:

> What makes you think that German courts run by judges who worked hand in glove
> with the Nazis would have been the epitome of fair-minded justice? If you are
> of that mind, I would like to know what you smoke. Ben Frank

Are you implying that _every_ German (including those who had fled the
Nazi regime and those interned in concentration camps) lawyer and judge
worked hand in glove with the Nazis? I think so. I also think that this
is a very simplistic view of how things were. Do a bit more reasearch
before the next reply. BTW, I quit smoking (tobacco) last May.
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 16:04:03 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: FREE FRENCH FORCES

One aspect of the young Ho's contact with OSS in French IndoChina that
is probably accurate is that he received medical aid (sulfa) from an
OSS medic. Pretty near saved Ho's life.
Ironic, considering Ho's later,er, involvement with Americans...

--

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 19:08:06 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: KAMIKAZE TORPEDO

At Okinawa, in addition to the kamikazes and the threat posed by the
Thirty-second Army on the island, U.S. forces were threatened by the baka bomb,
or as known in Japanese, the Okha, suicide boats, and the kaiten, as I be;ieve
the suicide torpedoes were called. They were not successful as the U.S. fleet
at Okinawa knew of this threat and took appropriate defensive measures to
defuse it. Morison writes of them, and they have been referred to in both the
Army's green book on Okinawa, and the Marine Corps' volume V of its WWII
history series. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 19:11:08 -0400
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HOL: Also today 50 years ago

On Tue, 6 Sep 1994 [email-masked] wrote:

>         Lets start off by making this part real clear, THIS IS NOT
> AN ATTEMPT TO DENY THE HOLOCAUST OR THE ANNE FRANK DIARY.  But I am
> curious as to how it is possible to say who died first in any given
> gassing or gas chamber.  Are there records that substantiate this.
> Many of the stories that I have heard, not only from the Holocaust but
> from other terrible events often have the kind of human detail that strikes
> me as unlikely to have been recorded no matter how possible or likely
> that it might be true.

Brad, I think it is likely that you are correct in that it is highly
unlikely that anyone could have figured out who died first in a gassing.
The only thing that I can think of as a possiblity is that one of the
Sonderkommando (prisoners attached to many special details, emptying the
gas chambers of their victims among other things) happened to know Anne
Frank and saw her on the bottom of the pile of people. In a gassing,
since the gas fell downwards, there was always a natural tendency for the
bodies to form a pile as people scrambled upwards for air. The people at
the bottom would have been the first to die. This may seem morbid, it is,
but it is the only way I can think of to explain such an assertion.
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 19:20:33 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: EX-ADMIN: INFLAMATORY

Well said, properly put, and hopefully and end to obfuscation and
know-nothingness. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 19:54:13 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: EX-ADMIN: INFLAMAT

 Like Lou Coatney, you seem to miss the point also. This is a WWII discussion
list, not a political or social history list. I personally do not care to see
anything posted which has nothing to do with World War II matters. This is the
reason I asked to be included on this list, which I consider to be a privilege,
not a right. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 19:50:05 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HIST: Speer

Warren Thompson wrote,...

>To Alan Wild et al: Please post documentation for the claim that Speer built
>the death camps.
>
>-- Warren Thompson

I myself have relied on previous postings for integrity. I site #11942 sent
by David Rising. I trust there through the nets' resource that the background
is substantiable. Please forward me any concern. -Al

Alan G. Wild
Admin. Computing
University of Rhode Island
Kingston, R.I.  02881

I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 21:02:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 7 SEP 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
THURSDAY, 7 SEPTEMBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): In the Kurile Islands, 6 B-25s on a shipping
sweep attack a small fishing fleet between Paramushiru and Onnekotan Islands.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): 22 B-24s fly fuel to Kunming, China and many
other troop carrier and cargo sorties are flown to numerous CBI terminals.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 24 B-25s attack town areas, river
shipping and trucks in and around Kiyang, Lingling, and Yoyang; 11 B-25s bomb
Tien Ho and White Cloud Airfields at Canton and 2 bomb the Siangtan ferry; 5
B-24s hit 4 freighters SW of Hong Kong; nearly 100 P-40s and P-51s on armed
reconnaissance over vast areas of SE China attack numerous targets of
opportunity including troops, railroad targets, river shipping, warehouses,
and bridges. In French Indochina, 4 P-38s hit targets of opportunity in the
Hanoi-lower Red River area.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, bad weather grounds the
bombers; fighters provide air cover for the US 8th and 29th Infantry
Divisions; the 391st Fighter Squadron, 366th Fighter Group, moves from Dreux
to Laon/Couvron with P-47s; and the 392d Fighter Squadron, 367th Fighter
Group, moves from Cricqueville to Peray with P-38s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): Weather cancels all flying in
France and Italy except for weather reconnaissance by a few P-47s. In France,
HQ 47th Bombardment Group (Light) and the 97th Bombardment Squadron (Light)
move from Poretta, Corsica to Salon with A-20s; the 16th and 18th Troop
Carrier Squadrons, 64th Troop Carrier Group, based at Ciampino, Italy begin
operating from Istres with C-47s; and the 23d Photographic Reconnaissance
Squadron, 5th Photographic Reconnaissance Group [attached to 3d Photographic
Group (Reconnaissance)] ceases operating from Le Luc and returns to base at
Valence; at the same time, a detachment begins operating from Satolas-et-
Bonce with F-5s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): In the Mariana Islands, Saipan Island-based
P-47s make strafing and rocket attacks on Pagan and Aguijan Islands. B-24s on
snooper and armed reconnaissance missions hit Iwo Jima and Marcus Islands.

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): The 873d, 874th and 875th Bombardment
Squadrons (Very Heavy), 498th Bombardment Group (Very Heavy), arrive at Isley
Field, Saipan Island from the US with B-29s (first mission is 28 Oct).

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: B-24s pound Menado
area on Celebes Island and B-25s hit Wasile Bay villages on Halmahera Island;
other B-24s strike Galela in force while P-38s dive-bomb Djailolo and
airfield on Halmahera Island. A-20s bomb Boela Airfield, Ceram Island and
B-25s sink a lugger in Bara Bay. In New Guinea, A-20s hit Mongosah Airfield
while fighter-bombers hit Manokwari Airstrip and villages in the Schouten
Islands and strafe and bomb Wewak Airfield and surrounding areas; and the
25th Liaison Squadron, 91st Photographic Wing (Reconnaissance), moves from
Nadzab to Biak Island with L-5s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

07/0105Z SEP

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 21:18:10 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HIST: Albert Speer

>> I wrote On Fri, 2 Sep 1994,...
>>
>> I understand the reference to Doenitz,... but what complicity does
>> Albert Speer have with war crimes? As I understand it, he was an
>> inventor and exec in mfg.

Then David wrote,...

>Not only did Speer design many of the concentration camps/gas chambers,
>he also was responsible for putting the German manufacturing sector on a
>war footing. This, some speculate, helped to perpetuate the war for over
>a year. All in all, I think he got what he deserved.
>David Rising

Warren,... David was my reference. In 12006 you asked about it. I hope the
numbers are the same reference on your system. David Rising posted on 2Sep94.
I hope I haven't jumped the gun.

Sincerly, Alan

Alan G. Wild
Admin. Computing
University of Rhode Island
Kingston, R.I.  02881

I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 21:22:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: INFORMATION ON AIR FORCE HEADQUARTERS IN AFRICA?

 >  September 2, 1994
 >  For a period, during the last half of 1943, my father was a rail bombing
 >officer at the Air Force headquarters commanded by Brig. Gen. Norstad, at La
 >Marsa, near Tunis.  I believe the field was called MacNaff.  His job was to pick
 >rail targets, presumably in Italy but I am not sure of this.
 >  Could tell me a bit about this headquarters?
 >  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

John,

I checked my 7-volume set of THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II by Wesley
Frank Craven and James Lea Cate and this is what I found:

La Marsa was a Luftwaffe and then USAAF base approximately 10 miles NE of
Tunis.  During the invasion of N Africa in Nov 42, Colonel Lauris Norstad
was A-3 (your S-3) of the Twelfth Air Force.  (A-3 is the staff
organization responsible for operations and training).  On 20 Dec 43,
Mediterranean Allied Air Force (MAAF) is activated (retoractive to 10 Dec)
commanded by Air Chief Marshall Tedder and comprised of all Allied air
elements (RAF, USAAF, French, and other) which are operating in the
Mediterranean Theater of Operations.  The head of the Operations and
Intelligence HQ staff was Brigadier General Lauris Norstad and he kept the
job until 16 Jul 44.  I have no indication of where their HQ was.

Hope this helps John.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 21:55:40 -0400
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Speer and Concentration Camps (long)

In consulting my sources, it seems that I was exaggerating by contending
that Speer "designed concentration camps/gas chambers. There is no excuse for
my poor memory, I'm sorry. Nonetheless, I think that he did have _a lot_ more
to do with the concentration camps, their construction, and the
deportation of Jews than people tend to know. The following is taken from
_Albert Speer: The End of a Myth_ by Mattias Schmidt, 1982 pp 190-191
without permission.

When he was Minister of Armaments, Speer's jurisdiction became so vast
that he must have had more than hearsay knowledge about the places to
which the Jews were being sent and where these prisoners-in part-helped
manufacture armaments items. He must have had direct knowledge since he
kept himself informed about the conditions of the concentration camps.
His interest, it seems, was prompted by his dismayed observation when he
personally inspected the Mauthausen concentration camp on March 30, 1943.
Here, where the inmates were laboring for his armaments machinery,
housing and other constructions were being built with a generous use of
material. Yet, since construction material was growing ever scarcer
because of the war, Speer was having terrible problems getting hold of
material for agencies whose construction projects were vital to the war
effort. Hence, the generous use of construction material at Mauthausen
struck him as sheer waste.

Minister Speer instantly notified SS-Reichsfuhrer Himmler: "We now have a
shortage of not only iron and wood but also manpower for building
armaments factories for the immediate needs of the fromt lines; yet, on
the occasion of my inspection of the Mauthausen concentration camp, I was
forced to see that the SS is implementing projects that strike me as more
than lavish under present-day conditions."  He certainly did not- Speer
went on- underestimate the task assigned to the concentration camps
within the framework of the war effort. But he felt that the SS could not
continue its constructions along the same lines. "We must therefore carry
out a new planning program for the construction of concentration camps in
terms of utmost effenciency, the use of the least possible amount of
[material and labor], and the greatest success for the present-day
demands of the the armaments industry; i.e., we must immediately switch
to a primitive construction method." In order to learn about the
situation in the other concentration camps, Speer proposed that one of
his assistants, together with a representative of Himmler's, "should
inspect all concentration camps in situ"

Speer's letter to Himmler also pass through the hands of the
SS-Obergruppenfuhrer Oswald Pohl, who, as manager of the SS-factories,
was an ambitious competitor of the Minister of Armaments. Pohl regarded
Speer's letter as "a bit much." The agitated Pohl went on: "Reich
Minister Speer is acting as if we were building on a large scale in the
concentration camps without his knowledge and without any awareness of
the times. He is concealing the fact that every construction project in
the concentration camps has been registered in accordance with
regulations and that he himself issued his authorization on February 2,
1943.... The SS-Reichsfuhrer can therefore see that Reich Minister Speer
has been informed in detail about all construction projects and that he
has also authorized them"

--end--
All typos are my own.

I hope this helps clear up some of the confusion, and, once again, I
apologise for my own role in starting it,
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 21:26:05 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: The first victims of Nazi gas chambers.

In Richard Lukas(sp?)' book, THE FORGOTTEN HOLOCAUST, he
  cites 300 Polish and 700 Soviet POWs as the first,
  experimental victims of the gas chambers at Auschwitz --
  actually, Birkenau.

The Soviets shared their extermination technology with the
  Nazis at Zakopane, Poland, in early 1940 when the NKVD and
  SS got together for a session of collegial coordination.
  The only enhancement the Nazis could add to the Soviet
  techniques would be gas.

See Robert Conquest's recent book, STALIN:  BREAKER OF NATIONS,
  for more details on Zakopane.

Lou Coatney

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 19:35:51 -0700
From:    Ed Kettler <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: USN Chronology 09-06-94

The picture you are refering to is probably "Murderer's Row", taken at
the Ulithi Lagoon forward base.

Ed Kettler                                       [email-masked]

On Tue, 6 Sep 1994, Drew Halevy wrote:

> > 1944
> > 09/06 Wed. Aircraft from fast carrier force (Vice Adm. M. A.
> >            Mitscher) composed of 16 carriers, and cruisers and
>
> Wow! The idea of having 16 carriers in one task force. imagaine what it
> would be like for a pre-war Navy person to see the Navy build up to such
> a scale in three years that one task force would have 16 carriers!? I
> have always been impressed by the photo of a lagooon somewhere in the
> South Pacific (around 1944/45) where the carriers simply stretch to the
> horizion. It boggles the mind that so many underestimated the industrial
> capacity of the US in 1940/41. Just a thought-Drew
>
> >
> > Theron P. Keller
> > Logicon, Inc.
> > Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
> > [email-masked]
> >
>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 23:19:46 -0400
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: The first victims of Nazi gas chambers.

On Tue, 6 Sep 1994, Louis R. Coatney wrote:

> In Richard Lukas(sp?)' book, THE FORGOTTEN HOLOCAUST, he
>   cites 300 Polish and 700 Soviet POWs as the first,
>   experimental victims of the gas chambers at Auschwitz --
>   actually, Birkenau.

Lou, if I recall correctly, these people were indeed the first people
gassed at Auschwitz, but not in the gas chambers. I know for a fact that
Soviet and Polish POW's were gassed in the basement of a building in
Auschwitz I, (not Birkenau, or Auschwitz II). This was the first use of
Zyklon B gas, the gas later used on others in the main camp of Birkenau.
We could be, however, talking about different situations. It's quite possible
that Soviet and Polish POW's were gassed at Birkenau also.

Once again relying on my memory (this is just the _worst_ time to have put the
majority of my library into storage for a year), I believe that the
single gas chamber that is found in Auschwitz I was built after the war.
This is often used as "proof" by holocaust deniers that the whole thing
was a hoax. They, of course, don't travel the mile down the road to see the
_huge_ (and original) apparatus set up at Auschwitz II.

David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 6 Sep 1994 23:47:41 -0400
From:    Joe Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: ADMIN: I'm back

        I returned from my trip and logged in from home to see if my
request had been heeded.  A quick scan indicates that it was not.  I'm
disheartened that some people (plural, not singular) wanted to keep
the fires going.  It will probably take me a day or two simply to catch
up with all my email.  I ask that everyone be patient as I sort through
the verbiage.  In the meantime, let's get one thing clear -- there are
two members on this list that I *will* coddle and do just about anything
to keep them on the list and they are John Ausland and Ben Frank.  Without
their unique perspectives, this list would not shine as bright.  I will
boot anyone's ass off this list who causes either of them to even think
about unsubscribing.  Call me a Nazi, a censor, a dickhead, I don't care;
but these two men have earned and deserve our respect and courtesy and I
will see that they are not exposed to senseless arguing.  If it means
biting your tongue back, so be it.  If anyone has a problem with the
way I wish to run the list, there are several options.  The two most
obvious ones are to unsubscribe and/or to start another mailing list.
This is not open to debate.  Thank you.
--
Joe Barone, WWII-L listowner
[email-masked]

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 5 Sep 1994 to 6 Sep 1994
***********************************************