Subject: WWII-L Digest - 7 Sep 1994 to 8 Sep 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 9 Sep 1994 00:00:10 -0400

There are 45 messages totalling 1392 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. WEAP: USS Enterprise (CV-6) (Was: 16 carriers....) (4)
  2. 16 carriers in one ta
  3. 16 carriers in one task force (2)
  4. INF: USN CHRONOLOG
  5. U.S. "WAR PLANS" F (3)
  6. CULPABILITY OF SPE
  7. QUESTION FOR BEN FRANK
  8. FREE FRENCH FORCES
  9. WEAP: Atomic Bombs -Reply
 10. INF: USN Chronology 09-08-94
 11. USS Hornet
 12. INF: 50 Years Ago - 09-SEP-1944
 13. The first victims of Nazi gas chambers.
 14. WEAP: USS Hornet (and other Essex-class carriers) (8)
 15. Preserving Ships (4)
 16. Preserving the *current* ENTERPRISE? (3)
 17. Woman in jail during WWII
 18. Free French Forces
 19. WEAP:Kamikaze torpedoes
 20. [WEAP] Re: Essex class carrier in Charleston
 21. WWII-L Digest - 6 Sep 1994 to 7 Sep 1994
 22. FWD: RE: ROMMEL and/or "The Grief" (2)
 23. [INF] USAAF 9 SEP 44
 24. PRESERVING SHIPS
 25. Rommel
 26. Preserved Naval Vessels

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 7 Sep 1994 20:59:22 -0700
From:    Ed Kettler <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: USS Enterprise (CV-6) (Was: 16 carriers....)

The USS Enterprise was scrapped in 1958.  The Saratoga was expended in
the atomic tests.  Either ship would have been a fine museum, IMHO.

Ed Kettler                                       [email-masked]

On Wed, 7 Sep 1994, Jorge Merino wrote:

> > Lord knows I am rarely humble about an opinion, but everytime I read
> > something like Robert Hohlts, Jr.'s posting I start foaming at the mouth.
> > That the US did not preserve the Enterprise remains one of the great
> > outrages of the post-war era.  No excuse could possibly be adequate.
>
> Surely, I don't understand why the Navy didn't preserve her, and prefered
> to kill her in an atomic test. She could be now a museum, if they only
> could think twice by that time.... now, she's gone.
>
> Jorge Merino
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 03:52:00 UTC
From:    "Edward S. Miller" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 16 carriers in one ta

  > That the US did not preserve the Enterprise remains one of the great
  > outrages of the post-war era.  No excuse could possibly be adequate.
  > (Roger) Brad Coon
  The Enterprise was decomissioned after WWII and laid up with the Reserve
Fleet at Bayonne, NJ.  On 2 October 1956 she was stricken from the Navy List
and ordered put up for sale as scrap.
  Admiral William F. Halsey devoted the retirement years of his life to
preserving the Enterprise.  He resigned his corporate board positions in
1957 to devote full time to the campaign, until he suffered a stroke.  He
passed away in 1959 at the age of 76.  The campaign failed.
  In February 1958 the keel of the world's first nuclear-powered carrier was
laid.  CVAN-65 was named the Enterprise.

  Sources: NavAir, U.S. Naval Aviation 1910-1970.  James M. Merrill,
  =A Sailor's Admiral= (1976), p. 254.

Edward S. Miller   [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 7 Sep 1994 21:13:51 -0700
From:    Ed Kettler <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 16 carriers in one task force

Hornet was lost during the Battle of Santa Cruz on October 27 1942.  She
went dead in the water after multiple bomb hits and fires.  Attempts to
scuttle her with torpedoes were unsucessful and she was finished off by
Japanese Long Lance torpedoes early on the 27th.

The Essex class Hornet was commissioned in November 1943, and served
through the 1970s.  I looked in the 1993 Combat Fleets of the World, and
the US does not have a ship named Hornet in commission.

Ed Kettler                                       [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 7 Sep 1994 21:37:40 -0700
From:    "Office TH325, Extension 3566" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 16 carriers in one task force

>From:         GEORGE BAUER <[email-masked]>
>Subject:      Re: 16 carriers in one task force
>
>Where did the Hornet go down in 1942?
>
Off Guadacanal during the Battle of the Santa Cruz Islands.

>Does anybody know how many Hornets there have been since then?  Were they
>all carriers?  Is there a Hornet now?

There was at least one more, CV12.  I'm not positive, but it may
still be at Bremerton, about a dozen miles down the road from me.

John Riegsecker
Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
University of Puget Sound

[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 01:06:22 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: USN CHRONOLOG

I imagine that the idea of 16 carriers in one task force kind of boggles the
imagination, bit I recall the invasion fleet for Okinawa forming up in the
Ulithi anchorage, and what a sight it was, with all the carriers, battleships,
cruisers, and the like--a sight never to be seen again. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 01:30:44 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: U.S. "WAR PLANS" F

To David Rising: Well said and appropriately received. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 01:30:47 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: CULPABILITY OF SPE

Thanks again for your posting, although I did not send the message you
responded to. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 01:30:50 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: U.S. "WAR PLANS" F

Thanks for the fill-in, Terry. My response was knee-jerk rather than
thoughtful, and I perhaps should have read more deeply in postwar German
history than I have. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 01:30:52 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: QUESTION FOR BEN FRANK

Lou, the Marine Corps Historical Center is kitty corner to the Naval Historical
Center, both buildings facing on Leutze Park. I'll be certain to give John
Reilly your regards. He is a good friend and valued colleague, and the font of
all knowledge concerning Navy ships.
Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 01:30:55 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: FREE FRENCH FORCES

Someone earlier on this thread mentioned that because there were no French
troops available, the Brits supervised the surrender of the Japanese forces in
French Indo-China, and instead of allowing Ho and his minions to establish a
government, the British troops quashed any trouble raised by Ho and held on
long enough until French colonial troops arrived to resumer their suzereignty
over the Indo-Chinese. I also recall that the Japanese were allowed to keep
their arms, much as they were allowed to do so in North China when the Marine
III Amphibious Corps (1st and 6th Marine Divisions) arrived in Tientsin and
Tsingtao, respectively. The Japanese in North China served as additional
garrison against Chinese communist incursions, as the Japanese in Indo-China
did against Ho's communist forces--one could not call them an armed force at
this point. Again, this is dredged up from my memory, and is sketchy and not
long on facts. This should spur some of the experts on the list to do some
research.
Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 7 Sep 1994 22:06:54 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: USS Enterprise (CV-6) (Was: 16 carriers....)

The Saratoga was "nuked" at the Bikini A-bomb test after the war - 1946.
She now lies in about 180 feet of water and was recently surveyed by
divers (1989 & 90) from the National Park Service.

The Enterprise was decommissioned 1947 and sold in 1958.

****************************************************************************
Jim Adams                       [email-masked]
USS Arizona Memorial, NPS        (808) 423-7300
1 Arizona Memorial Place
Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
****************************************************************************

On Wed, 7 Sep 1994, John E. Kollar wrote:

> As far as I could recall, wasn't the big 'E' scrapped after the war?
> The Sara was nuked? I'm having trouble recalling, someone please straighten
> me out.
>
> John E. Kollar
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 04:18:46 -0400
From:    Jeff Olson <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: Atomic Bombs -Reply

JV.The cruiser arrived at Tinian on July 26.  Also on that date 5 Air Transport
.Command C-54s departed Kirkland AFB.   Three each carried a U235 ring for
.Little Boy.  The two others carried Fat Man's initator and plutonium core.
.These aircraft arrived at Tinian on July 28th.  On the same date, three B-29
.departed Kirkland with the remaining parts of Fat Man, the high explosive pr
.assembly.  These arrived on August 2nd.

I was stationed at Kirtland AFB in 1970 and became acquainted with an
"old timer" who was a security guard when the aircraft took off from
Kirtland enroute to Tinian.  He said they had security guards
stationed every few yards along the runway when the planes took off.
They weren't sure what was in the aircraft but assumed it was some
sort of super weapon.  When the planes got to the end of the runway
they dipped into a shallow gorge and the guards thought they were
going to crash and they all started running the opposite direction.

For years afterwards he thought the airplanes had been carrying the
entire bomb and how foolish it was to try to run away from the
explosion..

I regret that I was not as interested in the war then so I would have
been able to pick his brain for more details..

Jeff
---
. 1st 1.11 #1611 . [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 01:33:44 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 09-08-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
09/08 Fri. First German V-2 rocket bomb lands in England.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 7 Sep 1994 22:20:08 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <[email-masked]>
Subject: USS Hornet

The Hornet was sunk in Oct 42 at Santa Cruz Island.  This was the seventh
Hornet.  Number eight (CV-12) was launched Aug 43/commissioned Nov 43.
She saw service into Vietnam.

I don't believe there are any ships named Hornet today, definitely no
carriers.

****************************************************************************
Jim Adams                       [email-masked]
USS Arizona Memorial, NPS        (808) 423-7300
1 Arizona Memorial Place
Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
****************************************************************************

On Wed, 7 Sep 1994, GEORGE BAUER wrote:

> Where did the Hornet go down in 1942?
>
> Does anybody know how many Hornets there have been since then?  Were they
> all carriers?  Is there a Hornet now?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>   =========================================================================
>   | DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
>   |                                  | Computers in Business & Education. |
>   | Recently returned from my second | Education:  Curriculum development.|
>   |   extended stay in Prague.       |    International Education, TEFL.  |
>   | Working on second book about     | Central Europe:  Post revolution   |
>   |   Prague and new Czech Republic  |    economic, social, political     |
>   |   and a book about the B-25      |    problems and opportunities.     |
>   |   in WWII.                       | B-25 in WWII.                      |
>   | E-Mail:                          | Free lance writing and editing.    |
>   |   USA:  [email-masked]    | Stamp collecting.                  |
>   |         [email-masked] |                                    |
>   =========================================================================
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 04:43:41 -0700
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 09-SEP-1944

On 09-SEP-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - Units of the US XIX Corps cross the borders of Belgium and
Holland in the area of Maastricht. The French II Corps continues to advance on
Dijon.

Eastern Front - It is announced by Moscow radio that Russian troops have
ceased operations in Bulgaria. The Allies prepare peace terms.

Italian Front - The British V Corps and Canadian I Corps step up their attacks
on the Coriano and Gemmano hills.

Philippines - Aircraft from Marc Mitscher's fast carrier task force commence a
two day strike against Japanese shipping, facilities and aircraft on Mindanao,
P.I.

Foreign Affairs
---------------
France - General de Gaulle appoints a new cabinet. The principal change is the
appointment of Georges Bidault as Foreign Minister.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 07:41:50 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: USS Enterprise (CV-6) (Was: 16 carriers....)

John Riegsecker States;

>This is from memory, but I think Enterprise was sold for scrap.

She lives on, in another, stellar form.

see "The Making of Star Trek" by Gene Roddenberry. It contains, among
other things, an overlay of carrier AND starship. NCC1701 was specifically
designed to be just as long as the carrier...

BTW Since Clinton's crew wound up with linen, robes, etc from the Norfolk(?)
after the Normandy anniv., I've tried to purchase, legitimatly, a pair of
USS Enterprise bathrobes without success. Anybody got any pointers?

                                                                Steve

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - [email-masked] |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 07:46:51 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: U.S. "WAR PLANS" F

Hello, Ben!

Thanks for the note, and you are very welcome. We are all very
fortunate to have you on this list.

Please stay in touch.

Terry

> Thanks for the fill-in, Terry. My response was knee-jerk rather than
> thoughtful, and I perhaps should have read more deeply in postwar German
> history than I have. Ben Frank
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 07:30:37 -0500
From:    Terrance Lewis <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: The first victims of Nazi gas chambers.

On Wed, 7 Sep 1994, David Rising wrote:

> On Wed, 7 Sep 1994, Benjamin B. Weber wrote:
>
> > According to my research the first use of Zyklon B gas was on Gypsys.  As
> > I understand it in the winter of 1940, the Nazis took a group of 250 Gypsy
> > children from Brno, Czechoslovakia to test the efficiency of the gas as a
> > means for mass destruction.  Ina R. Friedman mentions this in her book:
> > "The Other Victims: First-Person Stories of Non-Jews Persecuted by the
> > Nazis," (Boston: Houghton Mifflin Co., 1990), p. 10.  Crowe and Kolsti
> > also refer to this in: "The Gypsies of Eastern Europe," (Armonk, New York:
> > M.E. Sharpe, Inc., 1991), p. 18.
> >         I would appreciate comments or clarification on this.
>
> Benjamin,
> Does Ms. Friedman say where she got her information from? I'm not
> doubting it, but I'd always heard that Zyklon B was first used at
> Auschwitz, as Ho"ss set the camp up. This would have been in late 1941.
> Before this, I'd always read that they'd only used the gas vans (such as
> were found at Chelmno). I'm without sources right now, but I think both
> the book _Eichmann Interrogated_ and the autobiography of Ho"ss called
> _Kommendant of Auschwitz_ (I think) comment on their experiments with
> this gas. I do know, however, that the people who ran the Nazi euthanasia
> program were largely the same people who carried out the program of
> genocide. It's quite possible that these individuals experimented with
> this gas earlier (it was a common pesticide if I'm not mistaken). Hope
> this helps,
> David Rising
>

Robert Jay Lifton's 1986 "The Nazi Doctors" also repeats the story of Ho"ss
and his aide Fritzch using  Zyklon-B in August, 1941, but also states in
a footnote that "There is some evidence that Ho"ss and his deputy cannot
claim exclusive "discovery" of Zyklon-B as an agent for killing large
numbers of human beings."  However, he does not mention the gypsies, but
since this preceeds the two above references, that does not negate it.

My understanding has been that there were many people "working" on the
"problem" of how to eliminate prisoners.  I, too, would be interested in
knowing more about the sources.

"T"

   -*-+****************************************************+-*-
   < [email-masked]   [email-masked] >
   <   Terrance L. Lewis, History Program, Social Sciences    >
   <            Southern University at New Orleans            >
   -*-+****************************************************+-*-

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 10:50:25 CCS
From:    Jorge Merino <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: USS Enterprise (CV-6) (Was: 16 carriers....)

> As far as I could recall, wasn't the big 'E' scrapped after the war?
> The Sara was nuked? I'm having trouble recalling, someone please straighten
> me out.

Yes, you are right, I was wrong. I was working from memory, so, I made such
a mistake (yuck!!).

Both ships should have been preserved. They were the only survivors of
their respective classes. What a waste!!

Jorge Merino

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 11:01:04 CCS
From:    Jorge Merino <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: USS Hornet (and other Essex-class carriers)

> >Does anybody know how many Hornets there have been since then?  Were they
> >all carriers?  Is there a Hornet now?
>
> There was at least one more, CV12.  I'm not positive, but it may
> still be at Bremerton, about a dozen miles down the road from me.

Talking about carriers, the only Hornets were the CV-8 and the CV-12.
I hope you are right about her location (Bremerton), because I remember
having heard that the CV-12 was sold for scrap (1973?).

BTW, does anyone of you know how many Essex-class carriers are still
surviving, and where to visit them? I only know about the CV-11 Intrepid
and the CV-16 Lexington (AVT-16, ex-training carrier). Hope there may
be more....

Jorge Merino

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 16:53:26 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Preserving Ships

Coming from an overcrowded and until recently a major maritime power
(where does the Royal Navy rank in the world size list?),
I am scratching my head to come up with more than two major
warships from our entire maritime history that have been preserved in
any reasonable state. Those two are HMS Victory, Nelson's flagship from
the Battle of Trafalgar (1805), dry-docked in Portsmouth,
and HMS Belfast, a WWII destroyer moored in the Thames. The Mary Rose
doesn't count because, as far as I have been told, it is a few planks
of wood.

[aside: in the early 80's my mother & sister went for a pleasure trip
down the Thames...on passing Belfast, my sister was earnestly informed
by her mother that Belfast had just returned from action in the
Falklands conflict (1982)... Now you all know where I get my
historical attention to detail from...]

Anyway, I am intrigued by the thought of anyone actually trying to
preserve an entire aircraft carrier and not only that, the sentiment
that about 1/2 the US Navy should be preserved. I guess if this sort
of project could succeed anywhere, the US would be it. How close did
the enthusiasts come to preserving the Enterprise, and how much did
they anticipate it costing to maintain it? (obviously not in working
order, but "presentable"). Most of our ships get sold off to other
countries. The rest are scrapped.

Steve Baldwin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 11:18:13 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Preserving the *current* ENTERPRISE?

Steve,

     CV-6 had enough historical value to justify its preservation,
but not CVA-65(no.?).  Also, CV-6 would have tied up -- "preserved"
-- only 20,000 tons of steel, whereas CVAN-65 contains 72,500 tons
of whatever.  (Polmar, 1969.  It's nice to be on Internet at home
-- with my book collection handy.  :-)  )

Lou Coatney

     As a heavy light cruiser, I think BELFAST contains about
14,000 tons, by contrast.

     Another ship we should have saved was SALT LAKE CITY, but
getting it there would have been arduous.  :-)  The beautiful
and lucky CLAA SAN DIEGO would have made a fine memorial.  It
was sistership to ATLANTA and to JUNEAU (on which the 5
Sullivan brothers served and died).

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 11:23:43 -0500
From:    Terrance Lewis <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Preserving the *current* ENTERPRISE?

On Thu, 8 Sep 1994, Louis R. Coatney wrote:

>      CV-6 had enough historical value to justify its preservation,
> but not CVA-65(no.?).  Also, CV-6 would have tied up -- "preserved"
> -- only 20,000 tons of steel, whereas CVAN-65 contains 72,500 tons
> of whatever.  (Polmar, 1969.  It's nice to be on Internet at home
> -- with my book collection handy.  :-)  )
>
> Lou Coatney
>
>      As a heavy light cruiser, I think BELFAST contains about
> 14,000 tons, by contrast.
>
>      Another ship we should have saved was SALT LAKE CITY, but
> getting it there would have been arduous.  :-)  The beautiful
> and lucky CLAA SAN DIEGO would have made a fine memorial.  It
> was sistership to ATLANTA and to JUNEAU (on which the 5
> Sullivan brothers served and died).
>

Out of vulgar curiosity, about how much, by comparison does the Alabama
"tie-up" as she sits in Mobile Bay?

"T"

   -*-+****************************************************+-*-
   < [email-masked]   [email-masked] >
   <   Terrance L. Lewis, History Program, Social Sciences    >
   <            Southern University at New Orleans            >
   -*-+****************************************************+-*-

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 12:44:07 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Woman in jail during WWII

Forwarded--w/o permission, but I doubt the writer will mind--in hopes that
someone will know something (-:  If you do, please note the addresses &
reply either to [email-masked], or to the original writer.  Thanx
on that person's behalf.

ken koester
[email-masked]
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Hello everyone,

I am writing ch 2 of my novel about Croatia. The heroine is now in a
Gestapo jail in Zagreb. Does anyone out there know what conditions might
have been like in a Croatian (Yugoslav) jail during WWII. Also, if you'd
like me to e-mail you Ch1 of the book for your review, please let me know.

Thank you very much, Tammy

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 13:08:46 -0400
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: USS Hornet (and other Essex-class carriers)

>
>BTW, does anyone of you know how many Essex-class carriers are still
>surviving, and where to visit them? I only know about the CV-11 Intrepid
>and the CV-16 Lexington (AVT-16, ex-training carrier). Hope there may
>be more....
>

There is a carrier (along with a Sumner-class Destroyer and submarine) that
has been turned into a museum in Charleston, South Carolina but my memory
from that visit 8 years ago is so bad that I wouldn't even phantom a guess
as to name and class.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka                                         National Warplane Museum
Cornell University                                 Geneseo, New York
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 10:22:00 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: USS Hornet (and other Essex-class carriers)

>> There was at least one more, CV12.  I'm not positive, but it may
>> still be at Bremerton, about a dozen miles down the road from me.
>
>Talking about carriers, the only Hornets were the CV-8 and the CV-12.
>I hope you are right about her location (Bremerton), because I remember
>having heard that the CV-12 was sold for scrap (1973?).

Looks like a trip to Bremerton is in order to take inventory.  At least in
the recent past there were several old carriers with low numbers next to
the highway.

John Riegsecker                                 (206) 756-3566
Dept of Math and Computer Science               [email-masked]
University of Puget Sound

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 13:12:16 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Free French Forces

On Fri, 2 Sep 1994 17:49:11 CDT Henry Sirotin said:
>To the best of my knowledge, other than reoccupying Indochina after the
>Japanese forces there surrendered to the Chinese, the French military
>played no direct role against the Japanese. Individuals did cooperate
>(interesting, I almost wrote collaborate) with the OSS in Indochina,
>I believe, but I'm hazier on this than I ought to be.
>
Fall discusses this in =Street without Joy=, I believe.  The French tried
to resist the Japanese for several days, broadcasting frantic appeals for
help, but with a completely obsolescent military establishment in Indochina,
rapidly succombed.  Since Vichy was "collaborationist", neither Britain nor
the US were inclined to aid the French forces in Indochina in 1940.  (The
Brits had their hands full anyways.)  I don't remember what Fall has to
say about the OSS in Indochina, but there wasn't much action to speak of.

ken koester
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 12:47:06 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP:Kamikaze torpedoes

Hello, Ed and Bill!

The submarines found or used at Pearl Harbor by the Japanese were
midget submarines. The Kaiten weapon didn't come along until later,
1944 and 1945.

Hope this helps.

Terry

> You know, I'm not really sure.  The midgets used at Pearl certainly
> weren't Kaiten.  I do recall the Kaiten at the museum because its
> operational descriptions were very similar to earlier posts regarding the
> lack of accuracy and/or success of the Kaitens.

> On Tue, 6 Sep 1994, Ed Kettler wrote:
>
> > Bill,
> >
> > There is supposed to be one of the Japanese midget subs used in the Pearl
> > Harbor attack on display at Pearl.  Is the a Kaiten too?
> >
> > Ed Kettler                                       [email-masked]
> >
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 12:55:14 CDT
From:    Robert Hohlt <[email-masked]>
Subject: [WEAP] Re: Essex class carrier in Charleston

>There is a carrier (along with a Sumner-class Destroyer and submarine) that
>has been turned into a museum in Charleston, South Carolina but my memory
>from that visit 8 years ago is so bad that I wouldn't even phantom a guess
>as to name and class.

>Ron Babuka

Ron,

I think that is the Yorktown (CV-10).

Robert Hohlt, Jr.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 13:43:37 -0500
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WWII-L Digest - 6 Sep 1994 to 7 Sep 1994

> From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
> Subject: Re: Liberation of Paris
>
>        Canadians are particularly proud of the role of our soldiers
> in the the liberation of parts of Belgium and Holland. There was a delegation
> of Canadian veterans as guest of honour of the Mayor of Antwerp earlier
> this week.  As he said, through tears, "Thank you, Canada, for our liberation.
> In the words of Kipling, 'Your name liveth for evermore..."
>         It will be the same in Holland soon.  The Dutch have a very special
> regard for Canadians, ever since the Liberation.

If you ever want to go to Belgium or Holland and eat, drink or stay
anywhere for free just sew a Canadian flag patch to your backpack and
you are set for the duration of your stay.  The Dutch and Belgian
people are *very* fond of Canadians.

Try asking where the bathroom is in Paris while showing an American
flag anywhere.....  Consider yourself lucky just to be ignored.
Better results can be had if your Parisian accent is flawless but
just asking in French will not cut it either.

Cheers, Bill Huber

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 14:12:36 CDT
From:    Robert Hohlt <[email-masked]>
Subject: Preserving Ships

>Coming from an overcrowded and until recently a major maritime power
>(where does the Royal Navy rank in the world size list?),
>I am scratching my head to come up with more than two major
>warships from our entire maritime history that have been preserved in
>any reasonable state. Those two are HMS Victory, Nelson's flagship from
>the Battle of Trafalgar (1805), dry-docked in Portsmouth,
>and HMS Belfast, a WWII destroyer moored in the Thames. The Mary Rose
>doesn't count because, as far as I have been told, it is a few planks
>of wood.

> Stephen Baldwin

Stephen,

I pulled this from one of the ftp sites I got from this WWII list.
Maritime / Naval Museums from your neighborhood:

UNITED KINGDOM
ENGLAND
Birkenhead, Merseyside
East Float Dock
HMS Plymouth    FFG
HMS Onyx        SS
Both Falklands veterans. Plymouth is a Type 12 Rothesay class
frigate.  Onyx is an Oberon class sub.

Chatham, Kent
The Historic Dockyard
0634 812551
Wednesday through Sunday

Duxford (near Cambridge)
Imperial War Museum
Expunger        SS
Stickelback     SS
X-craft submarine
Fast patrol boat (circa 1920's)

Duxford Air Musuem
Midget submarine
Some naval aircraft and a piece of Tirpitz's belt armour.

Gosport (across from Portsmouth)
Submarine Museum
Holland 1       SS
Walk-through tour of full-size sub, also very early submarine.

Kirkbean
On the Solway Firth
Cottage where John Paul Jones was born. Opens officially
July 6th, 1993.

London
Imperial War Museum
Lambeth Road
01-735-8922

London
Science Museum

London
Thames River
Cutty Sark      Clipper ship
Belfast         CL
Belfast is WWII era. Cutty Sark is at Greenwich, downriver from
the Belfast.

Portsmouth Dockyard
Portsmouth, West Sussex
HMS Mary Rose   Restoration project of 15th century ship
HMS Victory     Nelson's flagship at Trafalgar
HMS Warrior     Trend-setting 1860's armored frigate
May be getting a small WW1 monitor.
Several first class museums in the area.

Yeovilton, Ilchester, Somerset
Royal Naval Air Station
Fleet Air Arm Museum
0935-840551 ext. 521

SCOTLAND
Glasgow
The Clyde
Warship

Irvine
Scottish Maritime Museum

********************
Hope this helps you.

And to verify my last posting I got this too:

New York City
Intrepid Sea-Air-Space Museum
Pier 88, 12th and West 46th
(212) 245-2533
Intrepid        CV 11
Edson           DD 933
Growler         SSG 577  (Take 'er down!)
Nantucket Lightship #?
Naval tug (?)
Flight deck and hanger hold large display of carrier aircraft, including
and SR-71. Vehicles and planes on display on pier. Museum inside carrier
has wide range of displays, including models and a film on carrier
operations.

South Carolina
Mt.Pleasant
Patriot's Point Naval and Maritime Museum
(803) 884-2727
Yorktown        CV 10
Laffey          DD 724
Clamagore       SS 343
Ingham          USCG Cutter
Savannah        Nuclear powered cargo ship
Bills itself as World's Largest Naval Museum.  Savannah is only nuclear
powered commercial vessel ever built. Cutters served in Atlantic in
WWII on U-boat patrol.

I don't know when this information was put into the ftp database
but there it is.  It had no information on the Bremerton yards though.

Regards,

Robert Hohlt, Jr.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 15:16:15 -0500
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: USS Hornet (and other Essex-class carriers)

Isn't the second-generation Yorktown (I think its CA-10) an Essex-class??
Its fully preserved at Patriots Point in Charleston, SC (and well worth a
visit-- I was down there in May).

Regards

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 15:46:47 -0500
From:    "J. Long" <[email-masked]>
Subject: FWD: RE: ROMMEL and/or "The Grief"

Date sent:  8-SEP-1994 15:33:41

Thank you so very much for this info, while you have given me some
interesting information to mull-over, I still from my previous research
think Rommel was a superb leader.  Few if any others would be willing to
take as active a role in the battles he led.  Further from my research he
was not exaclty favored by hitler.  When Hitler wished to open a third
front Rommel advised that Hitler should keep his tank production at pace
with the Russian production of anti-tank weapons.  Hitler quickly dismissed
Rommels advice, and that was a small part of why Germany did poorly in the
Further Rommel had made himself some interesting enemies, I.E. Herman
Goerhing.  Goerhing started to despise Rommel when during a parade in which
Rommel had been made the security provider he would not allow Goehring to
proceed down a rode that Hitler had recently driven down.
        Perhaps these are not good cases of Rommels life, but then again
how are we to ever know what he would have been like in a time of non-war.
I still personally feel that it was a great tragedy when The Field Marshal
was forced to chose between a fraudulant public trial or taking his own
life.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Jamison J. Long (AKA Neuromancer, Flag Admiral, Jamie)  [{Founder T.E.R.R.A}]
[email-masked] or [email-masked]

Alia iacta est.  (The Die is Cast.)  -Iulius Caesar, upon crossing the Rubicon.
   {Also the Motto of T.E.R.R.A. [The Embry-Riddle Roleplaying Assoc.]}
 =============================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 16:28:19 CCS
From:    Jorge Merino <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: USS Hornet (and other Essex-class carriers)

Here is a list of some Essex-class carriers I can recall from memory
now, I hope someone of you could complete/correct this list. I think
they are the oldest fleet carriers now surviving. Ok, here is the list:

No.     Name                 Status
-------------------------------------------------------------------
CV-9    Essex                Sold for scrap
CV-10   Yorktown             Museum at Charleston, S. Carolina
CV-11   Intrepid             Museum at New York?
CV-12   Hornet               Sold for scrap?
CV-13   Frankiln
CV-14   Ticonderoga
CV-15   Randolph
CV-16   Lexington            Ex-training carrier (AVT-16), museum
CV-17   Bunker Hill
CV-18   Wasp
CV-19   Hancock
CV-20   Bennington
CV-21   Boxer
CV-31   Bon Homme Richard
CV-34   Oriskany

Jorge Merino

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 16:37:21 -0400
From:    "John E. Kollar" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Preserving Ships

Steve

Well, sorry, but the Belfast is a Light Cruiser, she's a beauty though
I got to visit her a couple of years ago.  I'm not sure, but was the
Victory saved by accident, ie didn't it sit forgotten, except for
its job as a barracks ship, for 50+ years, wait, I'll look it up
over the weekend and report on Monday.  The second thing is that
naval power is:  US, France, Russia(if the ships had fuel, crews, and
weapons), then probably Britain, although britain would be hard pressed
to mount an offensive operation against several navies, Japan, India,
etc.  If China does buy the old Soviet carrier, look for them overtaking
the UK too,  sorry.

John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 16:52:49 -0400
From:    "John E. Kollar" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: USS Hornet (and other Essex-class carriers)

I can attest to the Intrepid being a museum at NYC, it's a wonderful place,
new navy ships pull in all the time across from it to visit the CV.
One of the coolest things I saw was when the Kennedy came into NYC and
docked a berth or two away from the Intrepid, boy what a contrast, the
new CVs are bloody huge.  I was there the day they brought the SR-71 aboard,
when they were pulling the plane up with the crane and swinging it aboard,
the plane spun a little too much and put it's wing into the crane!  The
surprising thing is that when we later surveyed the damage, the piece was
not of metal but of cardboard.  It seems that when the AF was getting ready\
to give us the plane, they replaced several panels on the plane, both leading
edge and regular wing panels, with cardboard makeups (or that they flew a
plane at Mach 3+ with cardboard to avoid radar, which I personally doubt)
The engines are huge, I could stanmd up in the engine compartment (that's
right, they kept the engines too!) and I'm 6' tall.  I could also walk around
the plane, and below it without hitting my head, the landing gear are really
big.  We got to climb all over it without people around, the public wasn't
allowed near it yet, some of the electronics were still in it, but before
I could start trying to play with them my schdule changed and I couldn't
volunteer my time any more (aaarrrrgggghhhh!!!) I am hoping to get
involved again down their, and I'll pass on any more I learn.  They
have many many planes there, from the YF-17 through Panthers, choppers, etc.
Anyone in NYC should take a look at it, and if you're lucky a Tico class
CG or Burke class DDG will be parked next to it.

John E. Kollar
saoory for the length (and spelling) but it's really a cool place

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 16:01:23 +0000
From:    Josh Talbert <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: USS Hornet (and other Essex-class carriers)

>BTW, does anyone of you know how many Essex-class carriers are still
>surviving, and where to visit them? I only know about the CV-11 Intrepid
>and the CV-16 Lexington (AVT-16, ex-training carrier). Hope there may
>be more....
>
>Jorge Merino

I know of a WWII-era carrier which was recently turned into a floating museum in
Corpus Cristi, TX.  It opened as a museum in 1992.  I remember reading about it
in the local papers when it opened, but I don't remember the name or class :(.
This particular carrier was commissioned in either the spring or summer of 1945.
Hope this helps some, as vague as it is.

Josh Talbert
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 17:15:05 -0500
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: FWD: RE: ROMMEL and/or "The Grief"

In reply to an earlier post on this topic, re:Rommel's tactics: just for the
record, it was a right hook, as the Afrika Korps was always attacking from
west to east, moving south around the British left in the Libyan/Egyptian desert...also, as far as the alledgedly simplistic nature of Rommel's tactics is
concerned, two thoughts: 1.) successful tactics are often dictated by the
ground being fought over, and how well a commander adapts to the prevailing
conditions of the terrain.  I.e, whatever works works, and that is what often
defines "good" tactics.  2.) Much of Rommel's reputation as a tactician came
from his ability to improvise once a battle had begun, and to respond to crises
and/or opportunities as they arose.  In this he had to thank the general
emphasis on field improvisation and lower-ranks initiative in the German Army
but it remains a fact that the Afrika Korps generally was far superior to the
British forces in this area.  And one final note, while agreeing that
Montgomery could both hold a line and win battles that the odds said he should
win, the fact that he beat Rommel is less a reflection on Rommel's tactical
expertise than on the overwhelming British material superiority.  Its no
knock on Rommel that an army with a numerical superiority of almost three to
one, complete control of the air, 1,000+ tanks against 550 (counting the lower
quality Italian vehicles), with 1,000 more in reserve, and 500 Shermans against
30 long-barreled Panzer IV's, etc, etc, was able to beat him.  The true measure of Rommel's leadership is that his vastly inferior forces gave the British fits
for two years, despite a number of admitted tactical errors on his part.

Regards

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 17:20:46 -0500
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Preserving Ships

I visited the Belfast a long time ago.  This is the second post I've seen
referring to the ship as a light cruiser.  Is my memory screwy, or wasn't
the Belfast actually a heavy cruiser with 8-inch guns?? Or maybe a
Southhampton- or similar class hybrid, usually in the heavy cruiser range in
terms of tonnage (9400 tons) but with 12 6-inch guns??  Part of my inquiry is
based on the fact that all the British heavy cruisers I'm aware of were named
after cities or counties (Suffolk, Birmingham, York, Kent, etc) while the light
ones had names based on mythology or something similar (Penelope, Aurora,
etc.)  I'm sure someone out there can answer this one.

Regards

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 20:48:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 9 SEP 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
SATURDAY, 9 SEPTEMBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-6, North American Mustang
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  Mosquito, deHavilland
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 6 B-25s hunt shipping off Paramushiru Island;
4 return to Attu Island, Aleutian Islands with bombs, finding no targets; one
hits the mast of a vessel and ditches in the water; the other lands on one
engine in Petropavlovsk, USSR; 3 B-24s make an uneventful raid during the
night of 9/10 Sep on Kashiwabara, Paramushiru Island; later 2 photo planes
escorting 2 bombers over the Kurile Islands on a mapping project are attacked
by fighters which inflict no damage.

  CARIBBEAN (Sixth Air Force): The 29th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), VI
Bomber Command, moves from Howard Field, Canal Zone to Rio Hato, Panama with
B-24s.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 9 B-25s bomb a Japanese HQ and
other buildings at Manwing; 17 B-24s run fuel to Kunming, China; numerous
other transport sorties are flown to several points in the CBI.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 24 B-25s hit river traffic and
troop compounds in areas around Kiyang, Lingling, and Lingkwantien, bomb the
towns of Lingling and Samshui, and knock out the W end of a bridge at
Lingling; about 50 P-40s and P-51s hit numerous targets of opportunity
throughout inland SE China including rivercraft and troop areas around
Lingling, Lupao, Tsingyun, Kiyang, Leiyang, and Yungfengshih, and a railroad
bridge at Tunganhsien; 5 B-24s over the S China Sea claim 4 freighters sunk
or heavily damaged; and the 322d Troop Carrier Squadron, Fourteenth Air
Force, is activated at Kunming with C-47s.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 3 missions are flown.
  Mission 613: 68 of 72 B-17s fly Operation GRASSY to drop 180 containers of
supplies to French Resistance Fighters 25 miles (40 km) S of Besancon without
loss. Escort is provided by 30 of 32 P-51s without loss.
  Mission 614: 1,140 bombers and 435 fighters are dispatched to hit targets
in W Germany; the primaries are attacked by both visual and PFF means; 14
bombers and 1 fighter are lost:
  1. 419 B-17s are dispatched to hit the marshalling yard at Mannheim (387);
2 others hit targets of opportunity; 5 B-17s are lost and 197 damaged; 10
airmen are WIA and 54 MIA. Escort is provided by 140 of 152 P-51s without
loss.
  2. 337 B-24s are dispatched to hit the marshalling yard at Mainz (265);
targets of opportunity are the marshalling yard at Worms (24) and Koblenz
(6); 3 B-24s are lost, 3 damaged beyond repair and 104 damaged; 5 airmen are
KIA and 33 MIA. Escort is provided by 125 of 128 P-51s without loss.
  3. 384 B-17s are dispatched to an armaments plant at Dusseldorf (251);
targets of opportunity are Bonn (12), Leverkusen (11) and others (16); 6
B-17s are lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 148 damaged; 2 airmen are KIA, 3
WIA and 63 MIA.  Escort is provided by 142 of 155 P-51s; 1 P-51 is lost.
  Mission 618: 7 of 7 B-17s drop leaflets on Belgium, France and Germany
during the night.
  VIII Fighter Command fighter-bomber missions:
  1. 44 P-47s sweep the Lingen-Munster-Haltern area to spot flak positions
and troop concentrations and strafe an airfield; they claim 1-1-0 aircraft in
the air and on the ground.
  2. 196 P-47s and P-51s bomb and strafe shipping between the German mainland
and Schouwen, Overflakee and Walcheren Islands, the Netherlands,
installations on the islands, and rail and road traffic NW and NE of
Frankfurt/Main; they claim 13-0-5 aircraft in the air and on the ground; 7
P-47s and 1 P-51 are lost; 1 P-47 and 1 P-51 are damaged beyond repair and 14
P-47s and 3 P-51s are damaged; 1 pilot is WIA and 7 MIA.
  40 B-24s and C-47s fly CARPETBAGGER mission during the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): B-26s fly a leaflet mission to
coastal France and Belgium. In France, fighters fly escort, furnish ground
force cover for the US VIII Corps in the Brest area, the 2d, 5th, and 8th
Infantry Divisions of the US Third Army's XX Corps area W of Metz, and fly
armed reconnaissance in areas around Nancy, and Aachen, Cologne, Koblenz,
Bonn, and Saarbrucken, Germany; fighters also hit bridges at Custines and
Pompey; 700+ C-47s fly missions; HQ 71st Fighter Wing moves from Rennes to
Versailles; the 15th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron, 10th Photographic
Group (Reconnaissance), moves from Chateaudun to St Dizier with F-6s; the
96th Troop Carrier Squadron, 440th Troop Carrier Group, moves from Bottesford,
England to Reims with C-47s; the detachment of the 112th Liaison Squadron,
Ninth Air Force, operating from Valognes with L-5s, returns to base at
Jullouville; and the 160th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron, 363d Tactical
Reconnaissance Group, moves from Azeville to Montrevil with F-6s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-26s achieve excellent
results against rail bridges in the E Po Valley while B-25s bomb troop
concentrations and supply points S of Bologna; fighter-bombers and fighters
attack railways and roads in the Po Valley and from Genoa to Turin; motor
transport and rolling stock are bombed and strafed in N Italy and E France,
with particular success in the Belfort-Mulhouse-Freiburg, France areas; and
the detachment of the 416th Night Fighter Squadron, 62d Fighter Wing,
operating from Pomigliano with Mosquitos, returns to base at Rosignano. In
France, the 111th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron, XII Tactical Air Command,
moves from Valence to Satolas-et-Bonce with F-6s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): A B-24 on a snooper mission from Saipan Island
bombs Iwo Jima Island during the night of 9/10 Sep. B-25s based in the
Gilbert Islands bomb Nauru Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: B-24s bomb
Mapanget Airfield, Celebes Island. 100+ fighter-bombers and A-20s pound
airfields in the Moluccas Islands, i.e., Liang on Ambon Island, Haroekoe on
Haroekoe Island, Boela on Ceram Island, and Namlea on Buru Island. B-24s hit
Galela Airfield on Halmahera Island. In New Guinea, fighter-bombers hit
Moemi, Manokwari, and Ransiki airstrips while B-25s hit Babo Airfield; and HQ
417th Bombardment Group (Light) moves from Saidor to Noemfoor Island.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

09/0051Z/SEP

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 21:45:37 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: PRESERVING SHIPS

Steve, as you may know, the Intrepid has been preserved and serves as the
center for an outstanding naval museum. I passed her by last week and her
flight deck was chock-a-block with all sorts of naval and Marine aircraft.
There is a submarine, a destroyer, and other sundry types of warships there.
Because of the traffic, and I was driving, I couldn't pick them all out. The
drive to save the Intrepid and form a naval/military museum on or rather at a
Hudson River dock was a mighty endeavor which has proved successful. Then there
is the carrier at Charleston, sadly I have forgotten her name, and other major
naval combatants preserved elsewhere in the States. Perhaps this posting could
begin a thread with all the experts chiming in re/location of preserved naval
craft. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 22:03:00 -0500
From:    Colin Brace <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Rommel

          Jamison,
                    I am presently reading THE ROMMEL PAPERS, edited by B. H.
          Liddell-Hart, ISBN 0-306-80157-4 (paperback)DeCapo Press, Inc. NY,
          NY.  These are his own papers, diaries, etc. compiled with the
          assistance of Rommel's wife and son. Interesting and readable. This
          may be of intrest, if you haven't read it already.

          Hope this helps.

          Colin Brace WA1KWA

          [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 22:24:00 -0500
From:    Colin Brace <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Preserved Naval Vessels

          Ben,
               We have the destroyer USS CASSION YOUNG here in the
          Charlestown Navy Yard NHP (Boston), moored right behind the (oldest
          in use, I believe) drydock that the USS CONSTITUTION (worlds oldest
          comissoned warship) is presently in. Sorry I don't remember the
          CASSION YOUNG's number, but she is representative of the type that
          was built here in Charlestown, during WW2, even though the CASSION
          YOUNG was actually built in San Diego.

          There is also the USS MASSACHUSETTS in Fall River, and a sub, a
          destroyer the last time I was there, but it's been a while.

          Hope this is what your looking for.

          Colin Brace WA1KWA

          [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 19:39:08 -0700
From:    Ed Kettler <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: USS Hornet (and other Essex-class carriers)

USS Yorktown is preserved at Patriots Point, SC, near Charleston.

Ed Kettler                                       [email-masked]

On Thu, 8 Sep 1994, Jorge Merino wrote:

> > >Does anybody know how many Hornets there have been since then?  Were they
> > >all carriers?  Is there a Hornet now?
> >
> > There was at least one more, CV12.  I'm not positive, but it may
> > still be at Bremerton, about a dozen miles down the road from me.
>
> Talking about carriers, the only Hornets were the CV-8 and the CV-12.
> I hope you are right about her location (Bremerton), because I remember
> having heard that the CV-12 was sold for scrap (1973?).
>
> BTW, does anyone of you know how many Essex-class carriers are still
> surviving, and where to visit them? I only know about the CV-11 Intrepid
> and the CV-16 Lexington (AVT-16, ex-training carrier). Hope there may
> be more....
>
> Jorge Merino
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 8 Sep 1994 19:48:00 -0700
From:    Ed Kettler <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Preserving the *current* ENTERPRISE?

Alabama displaces 34,791 tons (Light ship) and 44-47,000 tons (full
load).  The full load range is due to lack of complete data in US
Battleships of WW2, Dulin and Garzke.

Ed Kettler                                       [email-masked]

On Thu, 8 Sep 1994, Terrance Lewis wrote:

> On Thu, 8 Sep 1994, Louis R. Coatney wrote:
>
> >      CV-6 had enough historical value to justify its preservation,
> > but not CVA-65(no.?).  Also, CV-6 would have tied up -- "preserved"
> > -- only 20,000 tons of steel, whereas CVAN-65 contains 72,500 tons
> > of whatever.  (Polmar, 1969.  It's nice to be on Internet at home
> > -- with my book collection handy.  :-)  )
> >
> > Lou Coatney
> >
> >      As a heavy light cruiser, I think BELFAST contains about
> > 14,000 tons, by contrast.
> >
> >      Another ship we should have saved was SALT LAKE CITY, but
> > getting it there would have been arduous.  :-)  The beautiful
> > and lucky CLAA SAN DIEGO would have made a fine memorial.  It
> > was sistership to ATLANTA and to JUNEAU (on which the 5
> > Sullivan brothers served and died).
> >
>
> Out of vulgar curiosity, about how much, by comparison does the Alabama
> "tie-up" as she sits in Mobile Bay?
>
> "T"
>
>    -*-+****************************************************+-*-
>    < [email-masked]   [email-masked] >
>    <   Terrance L. Lewis, History Program, Social Sciences    >
>    <            Southern University at New Orleans            >
>    -*-+****************************************************+-*-
>

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 7 Sep 1994 to 8 Sep 1994
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