Subject: WWII-L Digest - 2 Sep 1994 to 4 Sep 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 5 Sep 1994 00:00:52 -0400

There are 32 messages totalling 1270 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. <No subject given>
  2. 50TH: POSTSCRIPT TO EXERCISE TIGER (2)
  3. Zemke
  4. INF: 50 Years Ago - 05-SEP-1944
  5. 50TH: ROBERT CAPA-GOOD AND BAD LUCK
  6. 50TH: VOICES OF D-DAY AND OTHER BOOKS
  7. German War Crime Trials (3)
  8. U.S. 'war plans' for the Pacific
  9. OK:  How about a joint US/Japan/China/ABDA film commission?
 10. ADMIN: PLEASE READ, addendum
 11. Speer's complicity in war crimes.
 12. ex-ADMIN: Inflamatory postings. (3)
 13. INF: 50 Years Ago - 04-SEP-1944
 14. GEN: ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
 15. GEN: INFORMATION ON VET PUBLICATION?
 16. 50TH: SOVIET TROOPS WITHDRAW FROM EAST GERMANY
 17. HIST: German war crimes
 18. INF: USN Chronology 09-03-94
 19. War Plans
 20. Comments re continuation of MONTANA class BBs
 21. [WEAP] aircraft used to ram other aircraft thread...
 22. Nuremburg war trials
 23. Airshow report (2)
 24. ADMIN: PLEASE RE...
 25. [INF] USAAF 5 SEP 44
 26. FW: Re: ADMIN: PLEASE RE...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 4 Sep 1994 18:12:52 +0200
From:    itzhaki hadassah <[email-masked]>
Subject: <No subject given>

hello Bill,
Thank you very much for your help.
Hadassah

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 4 Sep 1994 20:02:29 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Subject: 50TH: POSTSCRIPT TO EXERCISE TIGER

  September 4, 1994
  The following appeared in the September issue of THE IVY LEAVES, the quarterly
newsletter of the 4th Infantry Division Association:

BEGIN QUOTE
  Normand Chariter of the NE Chapter received the following letter from Father
Robert J. Curtis, Col. Ret., 3837 Secor Road, Toledo, OH 43623.

Hi,
  I am a long retired Catholic Chaplain in the US Army.  While assigned to the
1st TD Group and waiting near the coast for D-6 to arrive, I was called for a
jeep trip for a funeral.  I was told that we had finally arrived in the American
Cemetery for WWI days at London.
  The ground was covered with hundred of bodies in what looked like burlap.
  I was told to have a Catholic funeral service for the bodies of the Catholic
men.
  In like fashion a Protestant Chaplain and a Jewish Chaplain each took care of
the men of his denomination.
  Then we were given sheets of paper containing the names of the men each had
buried.  We signed as directed.  Then were told "under no conditions may you
even mention this funeral to anyone in your life."  A few years ago in Monterey,
California, a speaker came from Washington to speak at the military school
there.  I did not go.  I did not think that I fitted in.
  We were told that there were 718 buried but we did not go around a count for
ourselves.
  I kept the security until it was released.  I thought that it might ease the
feelings of some families involved, if they knew of the funeral.
  I write three times a year to a couple of hundred families.  As I travel
across the country, I am able to visit a few.
  I will be 84 in September so I am not sure how much longer I will travel.
  I pray for all our dead, especially the war dead each and every day of the
year.  Please keep them in your prayers.
  God bless each of you.
  CH (Col.) Robert J. Curtis

JCA COMMENT:  It is clear from this letter and interviews which were on British
TV during the anniversary of Exercise Tiger that a lot of people were sworn to
secrecy.  One can only speculate on why this was.  It was best to keep this
secret for awhile, but why for all time?  I suspect this was because of the
failure of the naval authorities to provide proper protection for the convoy and
because of the communications foul up but have no way of proving it.

What is a pity is that these people were not informed that it was no longer a
secret once it was published in official documents shortly after the war.  My
guess is that the US Army historians were not aware that a number of people were
sworn to secrecy, and it would be unlikely any of them would see the brief
wartime press reports or the Gordon A. Harrison's CROSS CHANNEL ATTACK, in
which a brief reference to Tiger appeared.

I would like one day to see a full account of what happened.

Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 4 Sep 1994 09:53:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Zemke

The following is from the AIR FORCE NEWS AGENCY

625.  WW II ace dies
626.  Memorial architect chosen
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
625.  WW II ace dies
by TSgt. David P. Masko
Air Force News Service
     KELLY AFB, Texas -- Hubert A. "Hub" Zemke, 80, a World War II flying
ace who commanded the 56th Fighter Group, which scored the most aerial
victories of an Army Air Forces unit in the European theater, died 30 Aug
in Oroville, California.
     The retired Air Force colonel is best remembered as a tactician whose
innovations contributed to the success of his fighter group, dubbed
"Zemke's Wolfpack."  He was an ace with 17 aerial victories and eight
ground victories.
     World War II historians refer to Zemke as the "fightingest" fighter
commander in Europe because he led his group into battle so frequently.
Ironically, his death marks a period 50 years ago when Zemke and the
"Wolfpack," were going great guns, clawing down 300 German aircraft when
the war in Europe was winding down.
     A month later, on 30 Oct 44, Zemke was forced to bail-out and became
a prisoner of war in Germany.  Zemke then served as the senior U.S.
officer at Stalag Luft 1 with another AAF ace, Lt. Col. Francis S.
"Gabby" Gabreski.  Both aces were repatriated five months later through
Camp Lucky Strike, France, when the war in Europe ended.
     At the time of Zemke's downing, he -- like other seemingly
invincible combat pilots of his day -- was not nailed by an enemy pilot,
but by flak during ground-attack operations.
     Zemke began his military career as a pilot and officer in 1937 after
graduating from the University of Montana in his hometown of Missoula,
Montana.  In 1942 he took over the 56th and deployed it to England in
1943.  After his group had 300 victories, and pioneered the AAF fighter
escort with P-47s, he continued his winning ways as commander of the
479th Fighter Group flying P-38s.
     After the war, Zemke wrote two books, "Zemke's Wolfpack," and
"Zemke's Stalag."  His awards included a Silver Star, Legion of Merit,
Distinguished Flying Cross and the Purple Heart.
     He retired from the Air Force in 1966 after 29 years.
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
626.  Memorial architect chosen
     WASHINGTON (AFNS) -- Another step toward making the Air Force
Memorial a reality took place 18 Aug when an architect was chosen for the
project.
     The New York City-based firm of Pei Cobb Freed and Partners Architects
was selected to design the monument, Air Force Memorial Foundation
officials said.
     Pei Cobb Freed has designed and managed projects worldwide, including
the JFK Library in Boston, and the restoration of the Louvre in Paris and
the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, D.C.
     Thirty-six architectural firms were considered by the foundation's
Site and Design Committee and Board of Trustees, officials said.
     The foundation was set up in 1992 with the goal of raising US$25
million for the memorial.  Then, President Clinton signed a bill 2 Dec 93,
to authorize the Air Force to establish a memorial in Washington, D.C.
     The foundation has already received more than US$1 million in pledges
and donations, even before the foundation launches its official memorial
fund-raising effort, officials said.
--

      //^\\
     /// \\\
    ///   \\\
   ///     \\\                    Air Force News Agency
   |         |              Kelly Air Force Base, Texas, USA
   \\ CMSgt //    ___________________ /____________________________________
   \\ Mike  //
   \\Bergman/
    \\    //
       ~~

04/1356Z SEP

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 4 Sep 1994 04:56:22 -0700
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 05-SEP-1944

On 05-SEP-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The Allies achieve major successes along the entire front. In
the north, the Canadian II Corps takes Boulogne and approach the Calais area.
The US 1st Army approaches Liege and cross the Meuse at Sedan. In the south,
the 3rd Army crosses the Moselle near Nancy. Hitler brings Field Marshal
Rundstedt back to command the armies in the west.

Eastern Front - Russia declares war on Bulgaria. Russian forces invade and
within a few hours Bulgaria is forced to surrender.

Italian Front - The US 1st Armoured Division (IV Corps, 5th Army) enters
Lucca. In the eastern sector, the battle begins for the capture of the hills
of Coriano and Gemmano.

Foreign Affairs
---------------
Benelux Customs Union - The Benelux Customs Union (between Belgium,
Netherlands and Luxembourg) is established by agreement of the exile
governments. This is one of the first moves which will lead eventually to the
establishment of the European Economic Community.

The Homefront
-------------
Eastern Earthquake - An earthquake at 12:40 a.m. was felt throughout the
eastern seabord. Only minor damage was done. Cornwall, Ontario was the only
Canadian city reporting any substantial damage, with estimates placed at about
$1,000,000.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 4 Sep 1994 16:18:49 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Subject: 50TH: ROBERT CAPA-GOOD AND BAD LUCK

  September 4, 1994
  David Rising has reminded me that I promised some time ago, in connection with
telling about meeting Robert Capa in Ste. Mere Eglise, to tell another story.
This, however, concerned not so much Capa as the weird events in the Place de la
Concorde on the day after the liberation of Paris, which I told a bit about in
an earlier message.  I forgot, however, to mention that during the confusion
Capa drove up in his jeep (with ROBERT CAPA painted prominently on the front),
and we had a chat about what was going on.
  The best story, however, that I know about Capa and Paris is told in Ingrid
Bergman's autobiography.  She was in Paris sometime after the liberation and
found a note slipped under her bedroom door.  It was from David Irving and
Robert Capa, inviting her to dinner.  She went and then became involved in a
lengthy affair with Capa.
  Talk about luck.  It is just a pity it did not hold out for Capa when he went
to Vietnam in 1954.  (He stepped on a land mine.)
  The most interesting story about Capa and the landing concerns what happened
to his film. After landing on Omaha and sending back a number of rolls of film
to London, the technician, who was under pressure to hurry, made a mistake and
destroyed almost all of them.
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 4 Sep 1994 15:56:11 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Subject: 50TH: VOICES OF D-DAY AND OTHER BOOKS

  September 4, 1994  I have now seen Donald J. Drez's VOICES OF D-DAY.  It is a
collection of excerpts from taped interviews with veterans and supplements
Stephen Ambrose's book D-DAY.  Drez was Ambrose's deputy at the Eisenhower
Center in New Orleans before Ambrose resigned recently as director to concentrate
on other things.
  I have, as usual, read the chapter on Utah Beach first and found it gives some
interesting background, particularly with statements by commanders of landing
craft.  Since accounts usually concentrate on the landing, the terrible fate
some of the landing craft suffered is often overlooked.  After reading this, it
makes me realize again how lucky I was that the landing craft I was on got to
the beach with no trouble.
  Looking back, I do not recall giving much thought to the possibility of
hitting a mine, which a number of craft did.  I was concentrating almost
entirely on wondering what kind of welcome the Germans would give us when that
ramp went down.  As it was, by the time we landed at H plus 90, there was no
small arms fire on the beach, only the sound of mortar and artillery shells
exploding nearby.  Hence I reached the shelter of the sea wall and sand dunes
with no more than wet feet.
  Well, I digress.  If you have the Ambrose book and liked it, the Drez book
will provide it company.  I would not recommend getting it in the expectation it
will provide a full story of D-Day.
  For a full account of Overlord, I recommend the Green Book by Gordon A.
Harrison CROSS- CHANNEL ATTACK, which is available in paper back.  If you are
particularly interested in Utah Beach, there is UTAH BEACH TO CHERBOURG (also
available in a new edition), which gives a detailed account with excellent maps.
For a personal account of Omaha Beach, see Bruce Bliven Jr.'s THE STORY OF D-
DAY.
  BTW, if you are interested in a comprehensive account of WWII, I have now
read enough of Gerhard L. Weinberg's thousand page A WORLD AT ARMS to recommend
it.
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 3 Sep 1994 17:25:32 -0400
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: German War Crime Trials

On Fri, 2 Sep 1994, GEORGE BAUER wrote:

> I am no authority, but I thought that most of what Nazis wer doing in Germany
> in WWII was within the law.
>
> Perhaps someone can give some specifics here.

No George, not true. I think that people get confused here because we
constantly read that the way the Nazis siezed power was "legal". It was.
What they did, however, was not legal. Murder, etc. was not made legal by
the enabling act which allowed them into power (I'm hoping that I've got
the right "act"). Had they been tried for crimes such as these under
German law, they would have been found guilty.
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 3 Sep 1994 17:28:38 -0400
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: U.S. 'war plans' for the Pacific

On Fri, 2 Sep 1994, Alan Wild wrote:

> I understand the reference to Doenitz,... but what complicity does
> Albert Speer have with war crimes? As I understand it, he was an
> inventor and exec in mfg.

Not only did Speer design many of the concentration camps/gas chambers,
he also was responsible for putting the German manufacturing sector on a
war footing. This, some speculate, helped to perpetuate the war for over
a year. All in all, I think he got what he deserved.
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 3 Sep 1994 17:15:56 -0400
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: German War Crime Trials

On Fri, 2 Sep 1994, Jerry Kasiowniak wrote:

> Germans judging Germans was tried after the first War and the results
> left a bitter feeling with the Allies.
Comparing the two different wars doesn't really work as the situations
were _totally_ different

> After WWII, the German judicial system was so nazified I cannot believe
> any nazi would have been given a fair trial within the existing court
> system. The most effective and meaningful way to try the nazis was
> by the victorious Allies.
This is not true. There were _plenty_ of anti-nazi lawyers and judges
left in Germany and plenty more who had emigrated/fled in the early
1930's who could have returned. A trial where the victors try the
vanquished makes for a hollow and meaningless verdict (in my opinion).
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 3 Sep 1994 13:45:53 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: OK:  How about a joint US/Japan/China/ABDA film commission?

Reservations about setting up a U.S./Japan film commission to
  produce an "authorized" film explaining/resolving the moral/
  historical context of the wars in the Pacific, 193?-1945,
  were duly noted.

Maybe the national base of the commission should be broadened
  to include Chinese, British, Australian -- to Hell with the
  New Zealanders! --, Dutch, Filipino, (Canadian?), and Russian
  representatives.  I would recommend a membership of 6 Japanese,
  4 Chinese, 4 Americans, 2 British (one of whom could be
  Canadian), 2 Dutchmen, 2 Australians, 1 Filipino (at least),
  and 1 Russian.

At least this would help get across to the Japanese that it's
  not just us who are concerned about the(ir) history/
  interpretation of the War.

As is being discussed on MILHST-L, winning the battle in the
  field is only half the battle.  The other half is "winning"
  the history -- the Truth -- as we are finding in our struggles
  with the PC crowd.

Statues and battlefield parks are nice, but the Truth is the
  ultimate memorial to those who suffered the ultimate price of
  war (and/or) genocide -- and that is *our* battle, dear
  reader.

Lou Coatney
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 3 Sep 1994 13:29:52 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: PLEASE READ, addendum

For the sake of the thin-skinned -- :-) -- I'll be sure to
  put my direct e-mail address after my name, so that you can
  lambast me without taking up bandwidth, if my opinions upset
  you too badly.

Fair enough?

Lou Coatney, [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 3 Sep 1994 13:11:00 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Speer's complicity in war crimes.

Alan,

     As the person responsible for Nazi war production, Albert
Speer was *quite* aware of the slave labor "Arbeit Macht Frei"
camps.

     At Nuremberg, Speer seemed more conscience-stricken than
most -- *seemed* -- and so his life was spared.  After his
release from prison, he did extensive personal investigation into
the Holocaust, although I sensed that Jews felt this was a little
*too* belated.

     Like Hitler, Speer was fundamentally an artist:  an architect
and creative.  I believe he first came to Hitler's attention when
they were planning the (grandiose) New Berlin.  It would have been
*quite* impressive, except that it would have been erected on the
corpses of millions of innocent people.

     Speer's wife was a classically beautiful German girl.  I
believe they had met as students.

Lou Coatney, Historian at Large ... Amuck?  :-)

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 3 Sep 1994 12:13:41 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: ex-ADMIN: Inflamatory postings.

"Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]> writes (in part)

> Should controversy be taboo on *any* list, Joe?  Or is this
>   just an unpopularity (of views) contest?

Lou, I couldn't disagree more. Controversy, in and of itself, isn't bad.
The byproducts of the controversies are the problem.  Flame wars waste
bandwidth and time and drive reasoned discussion and careful logic out,
leaving only babble and a senseless "did not!"-"did too!" battle.

> Any of us should be free to say anything, as long as it is
>   somehow related to WWII.  If reactionaries want to argue
>   something contemporary ad nauseum, let them back-channel.

You *are* free to say anything, just not here. If you want to start a list
where anyone can say anything, you're welcome to find a listserver that
will let you and then you will have the joy of freedom of speech.

I think the fundamental problem is that people think this is a "open forum"
and that it is on automatic or something.  I know from years of wrangling
this list that it is much more work than most people realize.  The work
the listowner puts into the list makes him or her want to protect that
list from destruction at the hands of flame warriors.

Lou, you're not in Usenet Newsgroup here, you're in the electronic equivalent
of someone's living room, discussing matters that people have come here to
learn about and contribute to.  If you want to speak freely, step outside
so you won't embarrass your host or the other people who wish to have
rational, flame-free discussion.

When I started this list I was guaranteed that flame wars would destroy it
just like they did in the group soc.history on the net.  I took the
challenge and dealt without mercy with anyone who violated the ground
rules I set. By providing a few simple restrictions I created a place
where people could find an oasis from the stupidity of flamers. Only one
or two people ever noted the brief, vicious battle I had with the Neo-Nazis
who found this list and thought they were in 'Valhalla' with a "captive
audience" (thier words, not mine). I won that fight and they haven't been
back because they know they'll lose every round.

Callous, tactless, and rude posting are not welcome here. Lou, you are one
of the reasons I retired from listownership.  After my second heart attack
I had the options of killing the list, finding a new listowner, or
deleting you from the list.  I disliked many of your posts but I was just
too tired to deal with the mess you were making of this list.  You further
astounded me with your comments to H-Net.

Everything posted to this list is archived and will still be available to
the general  public via the various sites where it is stored for an
unknowable amount of time.  When posting to this group think about the
reaction people will have to what you put here, 10, 20, or 50 years from
now.  You can look like a fool to those future viewers, or you can act
like a rational person.

Being a member of this list is a priveledge, not a right, and it can
be revoked for cause.  That is the bottom line to this, a line that
seldom has to be pointed out to most people.

Larry J

[email-masked]; Co-Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU (Historical docs)
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 3 Sep 1994 07:42:28 -0700
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 04-SEP-1944

On 04-SEP-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The 11th Armoured Division (XXX Corps, British 2nd Army)
enters Antwerp. The harbour, the biggest on the North Sea, is intact; but the
Germans still control the Scheldt estuary. In southern France, the US VI Corps
and French II Corps, continue to advance north, towards Besancon and Dijon.
The Allies also liberate Lille, Louvaine, Malines and Etaples.

Eastern Front - A cease-fire agreed upon between Russia and Finland comes into
effect. The Germans begin to pull out of Finland by land and by sea. The bulk
of their force will go to Norway. In Rumania, the Russians take Brasov and
Senaia.

Italian Front - The British V Corps advances towards the hills of Gemmano and
Coriano.

Palau Islands - Units of the III Amphibious Corps of the US Marines leave the
Solomons for the invasion of the Palau Islands, located between the Caroline
Islands and the Philippines.

Burma - The British XV Corps is directed to engage the Japanese in the Arakan
sector. In the XXXIII Corps sector, the 11th East African Division occupies
Sittaung without oppostion and sends several units forward to Kalemyo.

The Homefront
-------------
War Prisoners In US - The Army says that there were 243,848 war prisoners in
the US on Sept. 1, including 192,846 Germans, 50,272 Italians, and 730
Japanese.

Roosevelt Lead Increases - Fortune reports that President Roosevelt's lead has
increased to 54.6% against 40.9% for Governor Dewey in its political poll.

Nelson Wins At Nashville - Byron Nelson has won the $10,000 Nashville golf
tournament with a score of 269.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 3 Sep 1994 14:57:02 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN: ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

  September 3, 1994
  FOR BEN FRANK
  Thank you for the suggestion that I write an autobiography.  I agree that
fate has put me in some interesting places at interesting times.  However,
having seen what has happened to State Department colleagues who took that
route, I am not inclined in that direction.  Instead, I have been putting
my experiences on paper and tape at various times.
  In the past ten years, I have contributed over seventy articles to the
International Herald Tribune, some of which have concerned my experiences with
Berlin and military matters.  I also published myself in the 1960s a book about
the Berlin crisis, which most authors of books on the Wall have drawn on, along
with interviews with me.  The National Security Archives project on the
Berlin crisis put this book on microfiche, along with other of my documents.
  There is also a three hour interview with me on nuclear matters and Berlin
in a transcript published the the Nuclear History Program of the Center for
International Studies of the University of Maryland.
  As for WWII, as members of this list know, I published last year a book on my
experiences under the title LETTERS HOME: A WAR MEMOIR.  This is now sold out
but is available on disk.  (I hope soon to have news as to how this can be
obtained easily and cheaply from a US distributor.)
  Charles Guggenheim of Guggenheim Productions interviewed me for over an
hour in connection with his film on D-Day for the Eisenhower Center in New
Orleans, which was broadcast on PBS.  This interview is on tape and presumably
available from the Eisenhower Center or from Guggenheim.
  As other messages indicate, I am now working on a book containing my father's
writings about WWI and WWII.  This will be a limited edition for the family.
  When this is done, I am planning to republish my Berlin crisis book in some
form or other.
  And so on for as long as I am able.
  One thing is clear.  Although I have had a half dozen books published by
regular publishers, I do not propose again to go through the discouraging
process of finding one for something I want to publish.  I will publish it
myself.  If someone then wants to offer to republish it, I will consider it.
  Having said all this, Ben, I appreciate your suggestion.  I go into so
much detail in case anyone wants to pursue any of these items.
  FOR MIKE YAKLICH
  I am familiar with Norges Krig.  Unfortunately, there are a great many books
about the war in Norway and Norway's role in the larger war which are only in
Norwegian.  This is one of them.  Pity.
  FOR HENRY SIROTIN
  The other story about the brigade sent to Berlin by JFK after the division of
the city has two aspects.
  The decision was taken at a White House meeting without any consideration
being given to what the brigade commander would do if the Russians tried to stop
him.  The JCS issued orders which would have led to a fire fight if this had
happened.  When this was discovered in State and the White House, people were
nervous but decided to take their chances.  Luckily, Khruschev did not want a
fight on the autobahn, having got away with what he wanted in Berlin.  (Most
people and historians are unaware that we were running such a risk.)
  There was not time to instruct the convoy commander about the fine points of
our quarrels with the Soviets about procedures.  As a result, he complied with
an order to have his men dismount to be counted.  This precedent led in 1973 to
what became known as the tailgate crisis, when we found ourselves confronting
the Soviets once again over access to Berlin.  (This incident had been largely
lost to history, but I describe it in more detail in by book on Berlin.)
  I believe various IHT articles on Berlin etc. are available on BYRD, but
I am not sure which or how to identify them.
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 3 Sep 1994 06:54:59 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: INFORMATION ON VET PUBLICATION?

John Ausland...
                        EX-CBI ROUNDUP
                        Box 2665,
                        La Habra, CA 90631

Regards -- Sidney.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 3 Sep 1994 06:14:34 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 50TH: SOVIET TROOPS WITHDRAW FROM EAST GERMANY

Brad Coon...
        "Soviet troops 'liberated' Berlin in 1944..."
Conquored, yes -- but *liberated* ?? From who?
:-)

--

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 3 Sep 1994 08:51:02 -0400
From:    Warren Thompson <[email-masked]>
Subject: HIST: German war crimes

As I understand it, such things as the euthanasia program (Aktion T4), the
medical experiments in the camps, and the Final Solution itself were
"legal" under the Nazi legal system, even though there may not have been
a specific law on the books for any one of these events. E.g., Hitler himself
ordered Aktion T4, and it was implemented. Some government officials
wanted a law for it, but as far as I know none was ever put into place.
A Fuehrer-befehl [Fuehrer-decree] did have the force of law ever since the
Enabling Act was enforced after the Reichstag fire of early 1933.

Hope this helps.

-- Warren Thompson
LEBANON VALLEY COLLEGE
Annville PA 17003

[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 3 Sep 1994 04:31:51 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 09-03-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
09/03 Sun. Naval task group (Rear Adm. A. E. Smith) consisting
           of 1 carrier, 3 cruisers, and 3 destroyers strikes
           enemy positions on Wake Island.
            United States naval vessel damaged:
             Submarine chaser SC-535, by storm, Southern France
              area,
              43 d. 17'N., 06 d. 38'B.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 3 Sep 1994 00:01:19 -0500
From:    Bill Smith <[email-masked]>
Subject: War Plans

Regarding anybody's Pacific Theater war plans, remember we had war plans
to invade Canada, Mexico, etc.  I'd bet a dollar to a doughnut we have
war plans today to take on Britain, France, fill-in-the-blank.  Creating
war plans is simply what the modern military war college bureaucracy does
for a living.  The very existance of war plans is no justification for
war guilt.  Follow that line of reasoning.  The U.S. obviously had war
plans against Japan (Orange, and others).  Japan attacks the U.S. at
Pearl to kick things off.  Suppose the U.S., not Japan, surrenders.  Then
do U.S. generals stand trial as war criminals because we had a war plan?

Actually, U.S. politicians would for the internment.  I say that not to
provoke reaction.  It is the victor who sets the parameters of postwar
trials.  It is morally ludicrous to compare the U.S. internment policy to
that of the Nazi/Jewish question or to the more noted atrocities of the
Japanese POW camps.  (i.e. -- these people lost their material
lives, businesses, money, years of prosperity, but most did not
literally -- and deliberately -- lose their lives in the camps as the
Jews.)  However, consider for a moment the Japanese POV --
as a victor they would have lashed out at a ethnically motivated "crime"
committed by their vanquished enemy.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 3 Sep 1994 00:31:49 EST
From:    "CARL WERNKE (TCWERNC@VCCSCENT)" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Comments re continuation of MONTANA class BBs

 To : Multiple recipients of list WWII-L([email-masked])

 (Roger) Brad Coon message  Fri, 2 Sep 1994 08:00:54 EST stated:
 |> Anyone out there who knows exactly the composition of Deyo's BB force ?

 Admiral Olendorf, injured and hospitalized shortly after reaching Ulithi was
 replaced by RADM Deyo, who broke his flag in the TENNESSEE on 15 March.
 Task Force 54, the gunfire force was underway for the Ryukyus. As Kerama
 Retto, a small cluster of islands near Okinawa was taken for use as an
 advanced base, the battleships arrived off the main island. With TENNESSEE
 were COLORADO, MARYLAND, WEST VIRGINIA, NEW MEXICO, and IDAHO , as well as
 NEVADA, NEW YORK, TEXAS,  and the ARKANSAS (BB-33), first commissioned in
 1912 and still operating with TF 54; she was the only battleship in the
 fleet still armed with 12-inch guns. With the capital ships came 10 cruisers,
 32 destroyer and destroyer escorts.

 Information obtained from: [email-masked] (Larry and Kim Jewell)
 Message-Id: ([email-masked])

 Carl Wernke
 [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 3 Sep 1994 00:18:30 -0400
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [WEAP] aircraft used to ram other aircraft thread...

The Russians made significant use of ramming as tactic in air combat. The
used the term TARAN to denote this form of attack.

There is an extended discussion of the tactic on  p 27-30 in Von Hardesty's _
Red Phoenix_.   The TARAN is something of a tradition for the Russians,
having been used against an Austrian aircraft at the beginning of WWI and
against the Finns in 1939-40.  The use of the tactic against the Germans began
on day one of the German attack on Russia when 8 pilots used ramming.  "In
the first two years, many VVS pilots scored multiple victories by ramming.  Lt
Boris Kobzan of the 184th Fighter Air Regiment became the top-scoring flying
in this demanding maneuver during the war, with four successful ramming
assaults....  A total of more that 200 ramming attacks were made on the
Luftwaffe during the war."

Hardesty writes, "Ramming differed from kamikaze attacks employed by the
Japanese..., although both reflected a blend of patriotism and desperation.
For the Soviets, the tactic stemmed strictly from practical considerations.  It
was used at decisive moments, when there was no hope of knocking down an
enemy aircraft by other means.... Soviet commanders did not issue orders for
pilots to ram.  Instead, the pilots exercised their own discretion, employing the
technique when they felt it was necessary."  Thus, "it never was merely a
brutal suicidal plunge at an enemy plane.  For the Soviets is was a blend of
flying skill and daring -- always dangerous, but worthy of effort if one's
ammunition was expended in the heat of battle."

Carl-Fredrik Geust, in his _Red Stars: Soviet Air Force in World War Two_,
comes up with a higher number of Taran attacks and victories.  "In the 1980's
attempts were made in the Soviet Union to produce exact records and
statistics on wartime 'taran' victories.  It is probable that these victories amount
to more that 500."  In addition to Boris Kobzan, mentioned by Hardesty,
"Alexsandr Hlobystov (147 IAP) who fought in the Murmansk area claimed
three 'tarans' and altogether 18 pilots claimed at least two 'tarans'".

Geust also gives a case by case accounting of 11 attacks by Soviets pilots on
Finnish planes, including one instance from the Russo-Finish War (Feb 1940).
Of the 11 cases, the Soviet pilot was killed in 6 of the cases.

In Gene Gurney's _The War in the Air_  (p 127), There drawings from Soviet
sources that illustrate three approaches to ramming:

Direct ramming, with the drawing showing I-16 impacting a Ju 88 in the area
of the crew compartment.  Hardesty observed that this method "required more
courage than artistry."  It was also the most dangerous.

A glancing blow using the wing of the attacking aircraft to hit the target
aircraft on the wing or the rudder.

Using the attacking aircraft propeller to damage / disable the target's elevator
or rudder.  According the Hardesty, this approach required the most skill on
the part of the attacking pilot, but offered the best chances for survival.

The Gurney book also includes a photo of one Sgt Chumbarev and his Yak 1
after he had downed an Fw 189 thru ramming.  The propeller is NOT in very
good shape.

John Meierhoffer                [email-masked]
Albany New York         518 486 2390 (work)   283 4761 (home)

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 4 Sep 1994 12:28:19 -0400
From:    tesser louis j <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Nuremburg war trials

> > The end result would have been the same, but it wouldn't have
created any > > martyrs. Just my opinion, of course.
>
>     I agree with that. In fact, I think the Allies were too lenient
> on some such as Speer, and too harsh on others, such as Admiral
> Doenitz. I think German courts would have been tougher, reference,
> Fritsche, Papen, and Schacht who were acquitte at Nuremberg but spent
> years in jail as a result of being tried in German de-
> Nazification courts. Their toughness may have been politically
> motivated, but, as you say, the end result would have been the same.
>
>     Thanks, again, David.
>
>     Terry
>

    It seems to me that the trials of Nazis were properly in the
hands of the Allies.  While German law might coincidentally have
outlawed the activities of the Nazis, the fact that the "world
community" sat in judgement holds some significance apart from simply
the victors deciding who was wrong.  The Allies were recognizing that
there are some "universal" human rights, and some acts which no one
should ever tolerate - independent of the laws of any particluar
country.  The world community was rejecting absolute moral relativism -
the horror of the holocaust forcing everyone to concede that there
must be some very basic human rights.
    The crimes of the Nazis were not just "German" crimes.  They were
international both in fact, and in their human rights implications.
While I agree that the Allies should have been as tough as German law
would have been, I also think that it was properly their place to sit
in judgement.

--Tony Michaels

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 4 Sep 1994 13:46:56 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 50TH: POSTSCRIPT TO EXERCISE TIGER

John wrote,...

>JCA COMMENT: It is clear from this letter and interviews which were on British
>TV during the anniversary of Exercise Tiger that a lot of people were sworn to
>secrecy.  One can only speculate on why this was...

The number of people who were given the gag order seems indicative of the
level from which the order came. It could have come from Moon himself,
with support from above, or it might have come from higher up, from COSSAC
(cross-channel invasion planning staff) or the Combined Chiefs.

>                                             ... It was best to keep this a
>secret for awhile, but why for all time?  I suspect this was because of the
>failure of the naval authorities to provide proper protection for the convoy
>and because of the communications foul up but have no way of proving it.

Certainly embarassment could have squelched the news, provable or not, but
probably a number of reasons exist, including not wanting to "tip their hand"
concerning timing and/or location, and what effective defenses might be
used (increased patrol boat activity). The importance of the secrecy would
(no doubt in my mind) have evolved through many exchanges into "for all
time".

Interesting,... -Al

Alan G. Wild
Admin. Computing
University of Rhode Island
Kingston, R.I.  02881

I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 4 Sep 1994 17:46:25 -0400
From:    Jack Petrilli <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: German War Crime Trials

>On Fri, 2 Sep 1994, GEORGE BAUER wrote:
>
>> I am no authority, but I thought that most of what Nazis wer doing in Germany
>> in WWII was within the law.
>>
>> Perhaps someone can give some specifics here.

I'm in no way an expert on this period, but my understanding is that the
Nazis attempted to hide what they were doing from the German public. Why
would they attempt to hide something which they considered moral and legal?
Obviously they knew they were doing something fundamentally wrong.

- Jack

(Living in Mississauga but a Habs fan to the end)

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 4 Sep 1994 19:27:45 EDT
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Airshow report

I've just returned from the Aviation Heritage airshow at Clark
county, Indiana.  Here's a brief, certainly incomplete, list of
of the aircraft on display.

An awe-inspiring 19 P-51D/K Mustangs
Three Corsairs; an F4U-1, an FG-1, and an F4U-4
Some of the Tora! Tora! Tora! air group (Kates and Zekes only)
The four Stearmans of the Red Baron Pizza Squadron
At least a dozen T-6 or SNJ Texans
Almost as many T-34 Mentors
A smattering of T-28 Trojans
Airshow host Charles Osbourn's P-47 Thunderbolt "Big Ass Bird II"
A P-38J Lightning - dressed as McDonald's "Putt Putt Maru"
A P-40M Warhawk in an RAF (or perhaps RAAF) scheme
The CAF's B-29, "Fifi"
A B-17G painted as the 303rd BG's "Thunderbird"
A PV-2 Harpoon named "Hot Stuff"
A B-25J Mitchell from Missouri
The CAF's C-46 Commando, freshly repaired after storm damage

Complementing the Flying Fortress was what appeared to be at least
one full aircrew and some ground crew re-enactors, plus several WAFs.
Tim Scherrer, I took several photos of them, if you want copies.

Aces Chuck Yeager, Robin Olds, "Pete" Peterson, "Bud" Anderson, and
Francis "Gabby" Gabreski were on hand, signing autographs, etc.

Flying demonstrations by an F-15, F-16, KC-135, and A-10.  (I'd
never seen anyone slow roll a Warthog before!)

One complaint - the voiceover for the some of the segments.
I take exception to really awful factual errors made in the name
of showmanship.  For instance, when the three Corsairs were
aloft with three of the T-6 Zekes, the announcer began a quite
odd description of the Battle of the Coral Sea and Battle of
Midway, placing the Corsairs in the middle of both battles.  I'm
sorry to sound off about what sounds like a trivial matter, but
if you're going to tell a story, tell it right.  Make the voice-
over fit the aircraft on hand, instead of working the aircraft in
willy nilly.  Of course there were the usual ground-based explosions
and smoke, which doesn't do much for me either.

My vote for the best sounding aircraft there - the P-38J Lightning.
It was the first time I'd seen one in the air, and I was quite
taken by the sound.  I'd heard the beautiful stacatto beat of
the P-51s' Merlins, and the wonderful throaty sound of the P-47 and
Corsairs' R-2800s, but the P-38's Allisons were the *smoothest*
sound going.  Of course, the F-15 and F-16 were bar none the
LOUDEST things aloft...

Dennis E. Sparks
[email-masked]
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 4 Sep 1994 21:22:46 EDT
From:    John Sloan <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: PLEASE RE...

Lou,
I recommend you do it the other way around - instead of posting something you
know will be inflamatory and awaiting email to your address - why not post
your message to the individuals you want to reach at their email address
instead of the entire list? I am posting this to the list specifically so
others may comment on this approach.
best wishes
john sloan
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 4 Sep 1994 21:33:47 EDT
From:    John Sloan <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Airshow report

HI all,
Thanks to Dennis for that fine report on the air show. WOW. It was much
larger than the one I saw in Frederick MD the previous weekend.   My question
to Dennis and others in the airshow game
When I was at the Russian aviation museum at Monino last year, I met with the
director  a long while and hediscussed his ideas for WWII commemoration
events etc in 95. He urged me to find a way to get American air show folks -
just the type of people who put on these air shows - to bring some WWII
aircraft to Russia for a joint exhibition and event with their WWII aircraft.
Seems to me it would be nearly impossible to do, but it is worth asking
about.
Also, Col Tolkov says that between his museum restoration crew and the
Yakolyev factory they can refurbish - (make new?) YAK aircraft of WWII
vintage for sale to collectors.  Not being in this field, I have no
idea if there would be interest in anyone buying such aircraft.
What does anyone think?

best wishes
john sloan
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 4 Sep 1994 21:35:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 5 SEP 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
TUESDAY, 5 SEPTEMBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  Beaufighter, Bristol
  Bf 109, Messerschmitt
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  F-6, North American Mustang
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  P-61, Northrop Black Widow

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): 8 B-25s pound targets at Indaw, Burma, 21
B-24s fly fuel to Kunming, China and numerous other cargo and troop carrier
sorties are flown to various CBI terminals.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 25 B-25s pounding Kiyang and
Hengyang cause considerable damage in both towns and at the Hengyang
Airfield; 6 others attack trucks and other targets of opportunity at the
Siangtan ferry crossing, near Hengyang and Kiyang, in the Lingling and Yoyang
areas, and at Samshui; 2 more B-25s bomb Kowloon shipyards; 26 P-40s blast
concentrations of river junks, troops and horses in the Kiyang-Wangyang area;
and other fighter-bombers, operating individually or in flights of 2-10
aircraft, hit a variety of targets of opportunity throughout the Hengyang,
Kiyang, Yungfengshih, and Lishui area.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 3 missions are flown:
  Mission 605: 739 bombers and 315 fighters are dispatched to SE Germany; 6
bombers are lost; during the missions, a P-51 shoots down a Swiss Bf 109 near
Dubendorf.
  1. 203 of 218 B-17s attack a Stuttgart aero engine plant and targets of
opportunity (4); 2 B-17s are lost and 109 damaged; 1 airman is KIA, 5 WIA and
18 MIA. Escort is provided by 147 of 160 P-51s; they claim 19-0-0 aircraft in
the air and 14-0-27 on the ground; 2 P-51s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair
and 4 damaged; 2 pilots are MIA.
  2. 277 of 303 B-17s hit a Ludwigshafen synthetic oil plant and target of
opportunity (1); 2 B-17s are lost and 163 damaged; 2 airmen are KIA, 11 WIA
and 18 MIA. Escort is provided by 155 P-51s; 1 P-51 is lost (pilot MIA) and 2
damaged.
  3. 183 of 218 B-24s hit Karlsruhe marshalling yard and targets of
opportunity (2); 2 B-24s are lost, 4 damaged beyond repair and 78 damaged; 22
airmen are MIA.
  Mission 606: 143 of 143 B-17s make a visual attack on enemy positions in
the Brest, France area; 2 B-17s are lost and 1 damaged; 18 airmen are MIA.
Escort is provided by 21 of 22 P-51s without loss.
  Mission 608: 7 of 8 B-17s drop leaflets in Belgium, the Netherlands and
Germany during the night.
  46 B-24s and 2 C-47s fly CARPETBAGGER missions during the night; 1 B-24 is
lost.
  VIII Fighter Command fighter-bomber missions:
  1. 48 P-38s and 167 P-47s attack transportation targets in W Germany and
claim 0-0-2 aircraft in the air and 62-0-30 on the ground; 4 P-47s are lost
(pilots MIA), 2 damaged beyond repair and 10 damaged.
  2. 67 P-38s and P-47s attack 3 airfields in the Hanau/Giessen, Germany
area and claim 2-0-0 aircraft in the air and 66-0-28 on the ground; 1 P-38
and 3 P-47s are lost (pilots are MIA), 1 P-47 damaged beyond repair and 1
P-38 and 3 P-47s damaged.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, 300+ B-26s and A-20s bomb
strongpoints in the Brest area and a coastal battery at Pointe du Grand
Gouin, fighters hit gun positions and other military targets in the Brest
area and fly cover for 6 armored and infantry divisions; the 10th and 81st
Fighter Squadrons, 50th Fighter Group, move from Meautis to Orly with P-47s;
the 22d Fighter Squadron, 36th Fighter Group, moves from Brucheville to Le
Mans with P-47s; and the 394th Fighter Squadron, 367th Fighter Group, moves
from Cricqueville to Peray with P-38s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 430+ B-17s and B-24s, with
fighter escort, attack communications targets in Hungary and N Italy to
impede the withdrawal from the lower Balkans and to disrupt railroad
communications in N Italy; targets hit are 2 railroad bridges at Budapest and
1 each at Szolnok and Szob, Hungary and a railroad bridge at Ferrara, Italy.
B-24s dispatched to Yugoslavia cannot bomb the target because of total cloud
cover.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium bombers again
strike, with excellent results, road and rail bridges in the Po Valley while
fighter-bombers blast rail lines and rolling stock S of the river; A-20s hit
the Milan and Genoa areas during the night of 4/5 Sep and attack ammunition
stores during the day; fighters support the limited ground force advance in
preparation for a major assault on the Gothic Line. In France, fighters fly
sweeps through the Rhone Valley; the 23d Photographic Reconnaissance
Squadron, 5th Photographic Reconnaissance Group [attached to 3d Photographic
Group (Reconnaissance)] moves from Borgo, Corsica to Valence with F-5s (the
squadron is operating from Le Luc); the 84th and 86th Bombardment Squadrons
(Light), 47th Bombardment Group (Light), move from Poretta Airfield, Corsica
to Salon with A-20s; the 111th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron, XII Tactical
Air Command, moves from St Raphael to Valence with F-6s; and the 314th
Fighter Squadron, 324th Fighter Group, moves from Istres to Amberieu with
P-47s. The 414th Night Fighter Squadron, 63d Fighter Wing, moves from
Alghero, Sardinia to Borgo, Corsica with Beaufighters.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 20 Saipan Island-based B-24s bomb Iwo Jima
Island and 2 others on armed reconnaissance hit Marcus and Yap Islands. P-47s
make strafing and rocket attacks on AA positions on Pagan Island. Gilbert
Islands-based B-25s attack Nauru and Ponape Islands.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: B-24s hit the
airfield on Peleliu Island, Palau Islands.  Small-scale B-24 strikes hit
Kendari Airfield on Celebes Island while fighter-bombers attack Galela and
nearby villages on Halmahera Island, Moluccas Islands. Almost 60 B-24s blast
Langoan Airfield on Celebes Island while a sizeable B-25 force bombs Djailolo
Airfield, several villages, and Kaoe AA positions on Halmahera Island. In New
Guinea, fighter-bombers hit Soepiori Peninsula villages and Waren and Moemi
Airfields; the 405th Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 38th Bombardment Group
(Medium), moves from Nadzab to Biak Island with B-25s; and the 547th Night
Fighter Squadron, Fifth Air Force, arrives at Oro Bay from the US with P-38s
and P-61s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

05/0137Z SEP

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 4 Sep 1994 20:50:59 PDT
From:    Jim Brady <[email-masked]>
Subject: FW: Re: ADMIN: PLEASE RE...

---------------Original Message---------------
Lou,
I recommend you do it the other way around - instead of posting something you
know will be inflamatory and awaiting email to your address - why not post
your message to the individuals you want to reach at their email address
instead of the entire list? I am posting this to the list specifically so
others may comment on this approach.
best wishes
john sloan
[email-masked]

----------End of Original Message----------
John,
I would like WWII-L to continue at the high standard of content and information
and civil nature it has exemplified for so long now. I would hate to see any
valuable member of our community provoke his removal from our discussion by
insisting to register political opinions in this forum. And I do think the rule is good.

Check out almost any discussion going, and almost universally, when you see
politics interjected, the entire discussion goes down in flames. No matter what
end of the meter you register on, I believe we all know you aren't going to sway
someone to another ideology; you're just going to make a lot of noise. So why
bother, when there's so much good info/sources/ideas/stories to share?

And in the vein of what we're here for,  does anybody have a line on any more info
on "the Beautiful Betsey"?(I'm flying on questionable memory chips on name
recall). That's the B-24 found wrecked last weekend in Australia. An author
quoted by the DOD devoted a chapter of a book to the ill-fated flight and
subsequent mystery -- anybody have the title? Any email contact with anyone
involved in the finding of the wreck or history of the plane & crew?

Thanks awaits you...

-- Jim Brady ([email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 4 Sep 1994 21:17:17 PDT
From:    Jim Brady <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ex-ADMIN: Inflamatory postings.

---------------Original Message---------------
"Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]> writes (in part)

----------End of Original Message----------
Larry,

  Thank you so much for this sincere and searing reply to Lou. I appreciate what
it means for you all the more, knowing that your health had caused you to hand it
off. I salute your efforts for creating this sanctuary. I was on only 6 months or so
before you retired. If you hadn't built it, fought to keep it pure, and put it in the
hands of someone worthy, i would never have enjoyed and been enriched by this
truly monumental gathering of participants, witnesses and historians to the
turning point of our modern times.

I have gotten to spread the lessons, being a newspaper editor and writer. I have
found sources here, become aware of stories here, schooled my reporters on
significant occaisions approaching and how to treat them. We publish in an area
rich in WWII vets, and I know they were wowed to see treatment go beyond the
superficial.

Anyway, I wanted to say thanks especially because, in this living room, having
come up on some of Lou's posts unawares, I felt personally slapped in the face.
I'm a younger man, my generation was the 60s generation he reviles. I can't help
being born when I was born, and I am in fact proud of it. Obviously, most sensible
people agree individuals should be judged on their character, not their
demographics. All this is to say, you carry a lot more weight in putting a stop to
this. I hope Joe has his finger on the button, ready to pounce after one more
abuse. Joe told me, when I complained, that Lou agreed to tone down, but was
not contrite. I hope it doesn't go on & on...

My thanks,

Jim Brady

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 4 Sep 1994 23:21:39 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ex-ADMIN: Inflamatory postings.

Jim wrote,...
>... I hope it doesn't go on & on...
>
>My thanks,
>
>Jim Brady

I hate to have to write this to the topic, but I do in hopes that better
sense will prevail and this dead thread of a dirge will stop. My proposal:
If it really bugs you,... tell your wife, and leave us out of it.

Hopefully, Al

Alan G. Wild
Admin. Computing
University of Rhode Island
Kingston, R.I.  02881

I am the NRA.

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End of WWII-L Digest - 2 Sep 1994 to 4 Sep 1994
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