Subject: WWII-L Digest - 20 Sep 1994 to 21 Sep 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 22 Sep 1994 00:00:45 -0400

There are 61 messages totalling 1808 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. REquest for Assistance
  2. MAC AND THE PHILIP
  3. Seebees and SAS
  4. WAR PLAN YELLOW (4)
  5. Acts of Nature (8)
  6. INF: USN Chronology 09-21-94
  7. RAF Liberators
  8. Leaflets
  9. Battalion Countermine Set (2)
 10. Battle of Leyte
 11. Island Hopping & the Philippines
 12. WEAP:Scwerer Gustav (2)
 13. Acts of Nature in WWII
 14. battle of Leyte (2)
 15. [INF] USAAF 21 Sep 44 (3)
 16. TRIVIA: Czech army (6)
 17. WEAP: Essex-class carriers (3)
 18. INF: 50 Years Ago - 21-SEP-1944 (3)
 19. The Media (2)
 20. MEDIA:Enola Gay
 21. MEDIA: Auschwitz
 22. INF: 50 Years Ago - 22-SEP-1944
 23. VET: Locating Veterans (2)
 24. Island Hopping & the Phil (2)
 25. Re[2]: [INF] USAAF 21 Sep 44
 26. THE MEDIA
 27. ACTS OF NATURE
 28. [INF] USAAF 22 SEP 44
 29. INF: 50 YEARS AGO
 30. USS Franklin (CV-13)
 31. Agattu Island
 32. USS FRANKLIN (CV-13)
 33. TRIV: American helmets
 34. Aftermath of Market Garden???

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 20 Sep 1994 23:26:01 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <[email-masked]>
Subject: REquest for Assistance

Some time ago I communicated with someone in the Netherlands about
the Duke of Brabant Air Force and a B-25 which they have.

If that person is still on the list, please reply.  Thank you.

  =========================================================================
  | DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
  |                                  | Computers in Business & Education. |
  | Recently returned from my second | Education:  Curriculum development.|
  |   extended stay in Prague.       |    International Education, TEFL.  |
  | Working on second book about     | Central Europe:  Post revolution   |
  |   Prague and new Czech Republic  |    economic, social, political     |
  |   and a book about the B-25      |    problems and opportunities.     |
  |   in WWII.                       | B-25 in WWII.                      |
  | E-Mail:                          | Free lance writing and editing.    |
  |   USA:  [email-masked]    | Stamp collecting.                  |
  |         [email-masked] |                                    |
  =========================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 20 Sep 1994 22:21:26 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MAC AND THE PHILIP

ben...
        Perhaps the reason the "Australians were mucking about on Bouganville"
was because the island belonged to them -- part of the Australian Territory
of New Guinea & Solomon Islands.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 20 Sep 1994 22:31:46 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Seebees and SAS

Yes, Tony...
        The 22 Special Air Service Regiment was founded during the Second
World War. The regiment evolved from the Artist Rifles. SAS' founder
and first commander was David Stirling.
There are a good number of books about the unit from its earliest days;
one of the best being Philip Warner's THE SAS, as I mentioned earlier.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 05:09:00 UTC
From:    "Edward S. Miller" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WAR PLAN YELLOW

On 20 Sep 1994 Ron Skinner wrote:

  > If memory serves, War Plan Yellow was the incredibly prescient work of
  > LtC  Earl Ellis, USMC, who developed an amazingly detailed plan in the
  > 20s for  the coming war with Japan.

Well, yes and no.  "Pete" Ellis died before War Plan Yellow (a plan for
intervention in China) was written--by the army.  Ellis did write an
excellent tactical plan in 1921 for an assault landing in Japanese-held
Micronesia--on Eniwetok, to be exact.  It was a supporting study for War
Plan ORANGE (full war against Japan) then being developed by the Navy War
Plans Division.

  > :-) Suffice it to say that Ellis predicted the attack on Pearl Harbor 20
  > years before the fact.

Sorry, Ron.  Ellis did not predict an attack on Pearl.  He did, however,
work on a plan for defense of Guam in 1914.  Amazing how the Corps'
legendary figures are mythologized bigger than life.  But then Ellis was a
brilliant drunk who died on an amateurish spy mission in Micronesia in 1923.

Ed Miller    author of
 "War Plan Orange: The U.S. Strategy to Defeat Japan, 1897-1941."

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 05:08:00 UTC
From:    "Edward S. Miller" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Acts of Nature

  > My question is this:have there been any case of  combat being effected
  > by acts of Nature (read God).

  There come to mind three typhoons in the Pacific.  In late 1944 and again
in summer 1945 huge storms caught the U.S. Third Fleet at sea, doing much
damage and delaying some operations.  Wouk's "The Caine Mutiny" occurs
during one of them.  Adm. Halsey was in command both times; after apparently
bumbling into the seocnd one, he was relieved of command.  The third storm
devastated Okinawa about October 1945, a few weeks before an invasion of
Japan scheduled for 1 November (according to then US planning directives).
The damage to the advanced base under development on Okinawa might well have
delayed the invasion until spring 1946. Of course, we'll never know since
Japan surrendered in August 1945.

  Edward S. Miller  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 01:13:42 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 09-21-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
09/21 Thu. Aircraft from 12 carriers (Vice Adm. M. A. Mitscher)
           commence 2-day attack against Japanese shipping and
           airfields on Luzon, P. I.
            Japanese naval vessels sunk, Philippine Islands
             area:
             Destroyer SATSUKI, by carrier-based aircraft,
              Manila Bay
             Oiler SUNOSAKI, by carrier-based aircraft, Manila
              Bay.
             Surveying ship KATSURIKI, by submarine HADDO (SS-
              255) west of Manila,
              13 d. 35'N., 119 d. 06'E.
             Coast defense vessel NO. 5, by carrier-based
              aircraft, north of Masinloc,
              15 d. 25'N., 119 d. 50'E.
             Auxiliary submarine chaser NO. 39, by carrier-based
              aircraft,
              12 d. 18'N., 122 d. 46'E.
             Minesweeper NO. 7, carrier-based aircraft,
              12 d. 18'N., 122 d. 46'E.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 06:56:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: RAF Liberators

Sidney Allison,

I picked this up from the rec.aviation.military usenet group and
immediately thought of you.  Perhaps you can help this guy.

Article 20553 of rec.aviation.military:
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
Path: athos.cc.bellcore.com!walter!rutgers!cis.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!Germany.EU.net!news.dfn.de!news.dlr.de!root
From: [email-masked] (Dave Elliott)
Subject: B 24 RAF WW2
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked] (Operator)
Organization: German Space Operations Centre
X-Newsreader: WinVN version 0.82
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 1994 23:40:00 GMT
Lines: 7

Im currently researching the role of the B24 as used by RAF Coastal
Command and would appreciate hearing from any Air or Groundcrew
who served with this a/c. Maybe your father flew in  a B 24 ? FYI my
father was an Air gunner and my finshed article will be deposited in
various RAF historical museums to assist future researchers.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 07:51:30 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Leaflets

That was something, Tony. Did you find this in a book, or do you happen
to have an actual leaflet (sure to be worth some $)?

-Al

>Some time ago somebody asked about the contents of scriptures dropped
>by the allies or the axis. Here is one that I have found. I also have
>one that I can post for the surrender of German Officers.
<stuff deleted>
>                        In the last weeks of the war everyone must take his
>                        fate into his own hands.

Alan G. Wild
Admin. Computing
University of Rhode Island
Kingston, R.I.  02881

I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 08:08:07 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acts of Nature

Drew Halevy asks;

>I was watching the news this morning and I saw that a volcano had erupted
>at Rabal in New Guina. My question is this:have there been any case of
>combat being effected by acts of Nature (read God). All that I can think
>of is the mulberry harbor at Normandy being wrecked by a hurricane (?) in
>the fall of 1994. thanks-Drew

There was one or two Chinese invasions of Japan in the 13th century (OK, so
I got the date wrong. It was long ago) that gave the Japanese the concept of
"devine wind", which is Kamakazi. The entire Chinese fleet sank.

                                                                Steve
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - [email-masked] |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 07:40:57 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Battalion Countermine Set

>I have to ask-what is a Battalion Countermine Set?-Drew

>What are your duties as "Weapons system manager"?
>What is Battalion Countermine Set?

1.  The Battalion Countermine Set consists of the Mine Rake and the
Mine Roller that are mounted on the front of an M1 Tank to clear
lanes of movement through minefields.

The Mine Rake acts much like the old time railroad "cowcatcher" to
dig up mines and move them to the side of the vehicles lane of
movement.  It also includes an assembly designed to detonate
magnetically activated mines several feet in front of the vehicle.
Mine Rakes are most effective in sandy (i.e. desert) terrain. The
mine roller works much like a steam roller, and detonates mines in
front of the vehicle.  It works better on solid surfaces (i.e.
Europe).

The system is Issued in "Battalion Sets"  12 Blades, 4 Rollers per
Battalion, hence the name.

2.  A Weapon System Manager coordinates all the activity associated
with that system (Design, Test, Purchasing, Transportation, Fielding
and Redistribution, Maintenance and Repair, Modification, Disposal,
Training, Repair parts support etc.) with the specific duties
dependent on the phase of the Life-Cycle that the system is in
(R&D, New Acquisition & Fielding, Long Term Use, Phase Out etc.).

There are dozens of Army, DOD, Commercial and/or Allied Government
agencies involved in performing the actual duties listed above.
The WSM coordinates the timing, funding and adequacy of that
performance between these agencies (and referees the conflicts
between them).

3.  I appreciate your interest, but none of this is exactly germane
to a WW-II list.  In future I'll be glad to respond to these types
of questions if mailed to me directly.

        Steve L. New                     .............................
        Weapon System Manager            .............................
        Battalion Countermine Set        ............ /\ .............
        U.S. Army TACOM AMSTA-FR1D       ............./\..............
        DSN: 786-5403  FAX: 786-7788     ............    .............
        EMAIL  [email-masked]   ............    .............

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 08:18:05 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Battle of Leyte

     >During the sea battle for Leyete, wasn't there a destroyer that
     >charged the enemy fleet as it was advancing that helped turn the
     >tide?

     >Anybody got any details???

     >Did the skipper survive/earn the MOH/etc.???

     I'm working from memory here, so I won't attempt names or numbers.

     Your question could cover two parts of the battle.

     During the night attack of Japanese Battleships and Cruisers that was
     repulsed when the US Old Battleships crossed the Japanese "T", both PT
     boats and destroyers were sent along the Japanese flanks to launch
     torpedoes into the Japanese formation.

     The next day, when a different group of Japanese Battleships and
     Cruisers approached the beachhead, the only US naval forces available
     were the Destroyer Escorts (armed with 2 5" guns and torpedoes) and
     the Escort Carriers (armed with 1 5" gun in the fantail) that were
     performing ground support operations.

     The DEs went into action immediately, laying vast quantities of smoke,
     and running through the smokescreen repeatedly to fire on the Japanese
     vessels.  After launching their aircraft (which also took part in the
     attack against the Japanese using the General Purpose bombs they had
     available) the CVEs joined the DEs in running in and out of the smoke
     to take potshots at the Japanese.

     Eventually, although having taken little damage, and having already
     seriously damaged the US forces, the Japanese commander came to believe
     that the viciousness of the attack that he was under indicated that he
     had made contact with the US Fast Carrier Task Force.  Having
     no way to defend himself from such a force, and being unable to
     contact the other elements of this attack to confirm the whereabouts
     of the fast carriers, the Japanese Admiral decided to conserve his
     forces for a later day, and left.

             Steve L. New                     .............................
             Weapon System Manager            .............................
             Battalion Countermine Set        ............ /\ .............
             U.S. Army TACOM AMSTA-IM-FR1D    ............/  \.............
             DSN: 786-5403  FAX: 786-7788     ............    .............
             EMAIL  [email-masked]   ............    .............

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 08:30:20 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Island Hopping & the Philippines

     One more point to raise when considering whether to "Bypass" the
     Philippines

     Unlike the majority of volcanic outcroppings and coral atolls that
     could be bypassed as insignificant to the war effort, the Philippine
     Islands were a nation, with all the resources of a nation available to
     them (manufacturing, shipbuilding, aircraft manufacture, etc.).  To
     leave such a resource in enemy hands deep inside our logistics train
     may have proven fatal to future US operations in the Pacific.
     Especially since, at the time the decision was made, the A-bomb was
     not yet a reality.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 07:45:38 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP:Scwerer Gustav

Hello, Dave and others interested in this topic!

Here goes with some more info on the Gustav/Dora weapon.

                         Assembly

The construction of such a large equipment obviously had to be in
sections in order to transport the components within the loading
guage. When assembled, the gun was 42,976mm (141.00) feet long,
7,010mm (23.00) feet wide and the maximum height was about 11,600mm
(38.06) feet. For movement, the unit was dismantled into the
following sections:

             breechring and breechblock
             barrel (in halves)
             jacket
             cradle
             trunnions and trunnion bearings

All of which were carried on special flatcars together with the bogie
units on their own wheels, ammunition wagons, coaches for the crews
and a dismantled large gantry crane.

Three or four trains transported the construction crews for the gun
and carriage (about 1000 men) and one train carried the railroad
pioneers, who completed the firing position and special tracks in 3-6
weeks using approximately 1500 local workmen as laborers.

The construction of the complete gun required several loads of
components carried in several trains. The lower carriage was
transported in two loads, while 5 loads were needed to accommodate
the upper carriage and barrel components: breechblock, barrel cradle,
and two-piece barrel liner. The 7 loads weighed up to 700 tons.
Included in the construction trains were crews of 250 men of the gun
battery-fitters, electricians and track layers. In spite of the
immense size of the "Gustav" weapon, the prefabricated components
enabled the gun and carriage to be completed in 3 days.

On arrival at the chosen position, a 4 rail double track was laid for
the gun, together with 2 outer tracks on which the travelling crane
was erected. The right and left halves of the bogies were then
shunted into place on the gun tracks and connected together. The
remainder of the components then arrived piece by piece and the
mounting was erected with the aid of the crane. The barrel was then
assembled by inserting the rear half into the barrel jacket and
connecting the front half, which was thereafter locked into place by
a massive joint nut. The assembled barrel fitted to the cradle and
the whole assembly was lifted on to the mounting. The breech was then
lifted and fixed to the barrel by another joint nut.

The heavy artillery unit, consisting of the one 80cm "Gustav", named
by Krupp but called "Dora" by the gun crews, was commanded by
Generalmajor Diplom-Ingenieur R. Boehm. It included:

    The headquarters
    Headquarters battery with a fire control section
    A reinforced intelligence platoon
    A surveying platoon wi 4 observation units with infrared equipment
    and a plotting unit
    The gun battery troops for erection, service and removal of the
    gun. A total of 500 men.

The assigned support troops, such as construction troops, flak
detachment, 20 engineers from Krupp, reinforced Nebelwerfer
detachment, 2 Rumanian guard companies, a military police unit, dog
patrol troop, plus a helicopter section and fighter cover from the
Luftwaffe, to protect this weapon from retaliatory Russian land and
naval attack, came to about 3870 men. Firing the weapon required 350
men and the propellant was carefully chosen in order to keep the
projectiles on target within a 1% dispersion error. There were also 4
recoil cylinders to absorb the tremendous recoil forces generated by
this huge weapon.

The ammunition hoists and the barrel elevation gears were operated
electrically. The rammer and breechblock were operated hydraulically.
Traversing the weapon was done with two 1000 hp diesel locomotives
built into the lower carriage; they moved the gun along the firing
curve. Thus every 19-45 minutes, a shot could be fired. The barrel
had a service life of 100 rounds fired.

At the moment of firing, the recoil force increased the axle loading
to 84 tons resulting in the track settling 3-5 cm (1-2 inches).

Tomorrow, I will post the combat history and specifications of this
weapon.

Hope this has been of interest.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 08:00:02 -0500
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acts of Nature in WWII

In message World War II Discussion List writes:
>  >I think we can leave out non-WWII ref., those can go on the Mil. Hist.
> List.
>  >Vesuvius erupted March 23, 1944, and causedsevere damage to a lot of
>  >Allied a/c in the area.  There are numerous Air Force photos of the
>  >flightline of a nearby base where B-25s lay mangled and burned.
>  >I don't have any handy ref. to how it affected ground ops.
>
> I have a date of 22 Mar 44.  The nearest airfield was Pompeii
> Airdrome home of the 340th Bombardment Group (Medium), Twelfth Air
> Force.  Chunks of red hot rock the size of golf balls, and later
> the size of American footballs, rained down on the field and all
> 88 group B-25s were destroyed.  As one wag put it, the 340th was
> the only group to lose its aircraft to enemy rocks.  The troops
> had been evacuated without serious casualties and by 27 Mar they
> were back in operation with six B-25s from Paestum Airfield.

Buried in the recesses of the archives somewhere are photos of this event
also.  Miss Mitchell was in the 310th Bomb Group, same air force and therefore
was routinely at the same place, same time, near by, or flying with, the
340th.

Our crew chief was there just before the eruption and went back to try and
help salvage what they could of the B-25s.  He didn't take enough pictures,
IMHO.

(Actually, most of the pictures are fairly "boring."  Being black and white
anyways, what you see looks more like a winter scene -- gray ash covering
everything and that's about it... as he said, there is no way to appreciate
the power and damage of the volcano without actually having been there.)

--
Robert J. Granvin
Southern Minnesota Wing Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 09:01:52 -0500
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: battle of Leyte

I think the question is about the destroyer escorts protecting  the TAFFY
escort carriers providing ground support for the landing forces.  When
Yamato and other battleships unexpectedly showed up, they laid down smoke
and proceeded to act as if carrying out torpedo attacks on the Japanese
battleships.  Certainly a brave thing to do, since they had no torpedoes
and could not have really hurt the battleships.  They should have gotten
medals, if they did not.
Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 08:47:55 -0500
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [INF] USAAF 21 Sep 44

A question prompted by the chronology for this day and days previous.
Many of the missions flown were by aircraft carrying fuel over the Hump
from India to China.  I am assuming much of the supplies were aviation
fuel for the aircraft in China.  My question is whether there were any
indigenous (sp?) supplies of gasoline and fuel in China during WWII? Did
all the petroleum products have to come over the Himilayas or was there
any supply lines through the Soviet Union (a neutral in Asia)?  Just
wondering.
Also, what was the useful load for a B-24 or a C-47 flying from India
to China?  If aviation fuel, how many sorties for a P-40 or P-51?
Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 09:10:27 -0500
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <[email-masked]>
Subject: TRIVIA: Czech army

We are approaching the anniversary of the Munich Conference that led to
the dismemberment of Czechoslavakia.  Common belief is that this was a
serious error by the Allies, because it eliminated the Czech army, which
could have been a serious and important ally in the war against Germany.
This has to be balanced against the idea that it gave the Allies another
year to prepare for war against Germany, so it was OK.  (Of course, it
gave Hitler another year to build up for war, but that's another story.)

My question, after this introduction, is what was the Order of Battle
for the Czech army in Sept. 1938?  If it was supposed to be one of the
better armies in Europe and would have been such an important addition
to the anti-Hitler coalition, what was its strength?

Anyone have any figures or sources where I can find out more about the
Czechs before Munich?

Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 09:31:23 -0500
From:    Drew Halevy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acts of Nature

> Drew-
>
> To answer your question, you must first define "acts of nature", "combat", and
> "effected".
good point-i should have elaborated-

> Are you only interested in CATASTROPHIC natural events (earthquakes, volcanic
> eruptions, lightning strikes, hurricanes/tornadoes/sandstorms, tidal waves,

yes, the real wrath of God kind of stuff. Specifically, I was asking in
regard to WWII-Drew

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 09:33:22 -0500
From:    Drew Halevy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acts of Nature

On Tue, 20 Sep 1994, Mike Yaklich wrote:

> Do the thirty US infantrymen and Marines killed by falling trees on
> Bougainville count as an "act of nature?"

i have never heard of this-why were the trees falling?-Drew

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 10:34:07 EDT
From:    "SGM Robert S. Rush" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: battle of Leyte

If I remember correctly, the destroyer Johnston went in first and fired its
torpedoes.  Received 3 14" hits and pulled back.  When a destroyer attack was
ordered the destroyers Hoel, Heerman, and Johnston (no torpedoes but to provide
fire support) and destroyer escort Samuel B. Roberts answered the call.
Johnston was sunk, its commEvans was posthumously awarded the MOH, Hoel
was sunk, and Samuel B. Roberts sunk.  Heerman was severely damaged. I believe
one of the gunners mates on Roberts, Carr, was awarded the Navy Cross (post)
for attempting to hand ram the 7th round into a 5" whose hydrolic evacuator
was damaged, when it exploded killing him and many of the gun crew.

As stated, truly heroic.  Tbove was gleaned from the Navy's ships historys.

Hope this helps.
Rob Rush

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 10:49:48 CCS
From:    Jorge Merino <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: Essex-class carriers

BTW, what happened to CV-13 Franklin and CV-17 Bunker Hill after they
returned to the USA, badly damaged by japanese attacks (kamikazes, etc)?
Were they repaired, or just retired and scrapped?

Jorge Merino

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 11:37:24 -0400
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRIVIA: Czech army

Tim J. Watts <[email-masked]> writes:

> My question, after this introduction, is what was the Order of Battle
> for the Czech army in Sept. 1938?  If it was supposed to be one of the
> better armies in Europe and would have been such an important addition
> to the anti-Hitler coalition, what was its strength?
>
> Anyone have any figures or sources where I can find out more about the
> Czechs before Munich?

        I posted the following article to the Usenet newsgroup,
alt.history.what-if, about a year ago.

        The latest issue of Command magazine (#24) covers the scenario of
Czechoslovakia telling Chamberlain and Daladier to pound sand up their
arses after they gave the Sudetenland to Germany in Munich.  The article
goes into detail about the OOB for the Germans and the Czechs, claiming
that the Czech fortifications and modern army could have held the Germans
at bay while world opinion forced France and Britain (and/or Russia) into
acting on their behalf.

        In 1938, the Czechs had 45 divisional-equivalent units, with
26 active divisions, 12 border sectors and 7 defense groups.  Czech
units generally were equal in quality, training, armament, and transport
to comparable German formations.  The Germans had numerical superiority
in divisions and manpower, but serious deficiencies in all military
supplies, including ammunition and fuel.  In September 1938, these
shortages were 50% of the amounts required for one month of fighting
and 70% in artillery and mortar shells.

        Germany had eleven mobile units to Czechoslovakia's six.  However,
the 454 tanks available to the four Czech mobile divisions were superior
in guns and armor to the available German models.  (In itself, this does
not mean much as the French demonstrated in 1940.)

        The Czechs enjoyed an artillery superiority over the Germans,
particularly in heavy guns and mortars.  Like the Germans, their
divisional artillery was mostly horse drawn, but the supporting
corps artillery units were motorized.

        The Luftwaffe was Germany's only ace in this theoretical showdown.
It was not only the number of first-line squadrons, but also the quality
of the available aircraft, that would have been used to great advantage.
The Germans had 1,140 first-line aircraft earmarked for the planned
invasion (Operation Green) and 588 second-line planes.  The Czechs had
801 first-line aircraft available, of which 259 were courier planes of
dubious tactical value.

        Czechoslovakia's ace was its series of fortifications in the
mountainous Sudetenland.  The lightest fort was immune to the toughest
Luftwaffe bomb available.  These forts were armed with 47mm anti-tank
guns and 100mm howitzers in casements and turrets, with machine-guns
as secondary armament.

        Germnay did have plans to invade Czechoslovakia called Case Green.
The plans called for five Armies to hit the Sudentenland; three from
the west, one from the north, and one from the south.  The north and
south Armies would have run straight into some of the strongest and
thickest of the Czech fortifications.  Hitler himself worried that these
attacks would become replays of Verdun, bleeding his Armies dry.  The
Czechs fully intended to evacuate Prague to continue fighting until
Britain, France, or Russia intervened.

        So, with all that background, what if the Czechs had resisted
the Germans' march into the Sudetenland?  Would World War II have ignited
earlier or would it have fizzled out with Germany getting its butt kicked
by reluctant Western Allies and a feisty Czechoslovakia?
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
As much as I like Big Joe, I don't want to spend the rest of the war
in a prison camp.  Besides which, I'm a first generation Italian.
They would shoot me as a traitor.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 10:45:12 -0500
From:    Drew Halevy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: 50 Years Ago - 21-SEP-1944

>
> General Roosevelt Honored - Brig. Gen. Theodore Roosevelt has been awarded the
> Congressional Medal of Honor posthumously. Roosevelt died of a heart attack in
> France.
What were the grounds for awarding the Medal of Honor?-Drew

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 08:59:14 PDT
From:    Henry Herz <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP:Scwerer Gustav

In message <[email-masked]> World War II Discussion List
writes:
> The assigned support troops, such as construction troops, flak
> detachment, 20 engineers from Krupp, reinforced Nebelwerfer
> detachment, 2 Rumanian guard companies, a military police unit, dog
> patrol troop, plus a helicopter section and fighter cover from the
> Luftwaffe, to protect this weapon from retaliatory Russian land and
> naval attack, came to about 3870 men. Firing the weapon required 350
> men and the propellant was carefully chosen in order to keep the
> projectiles on target within a 1% dispersion error. There were also 4
> recoil cylinders to absorb the tremendous recoil forces generated by
> this huge weapon.

Terry-

A helicopter section?!  I didn't realize helicopters were used in WWII.  What
did these helicopters do?  Were they simply aerial guard dogs for the gun?

-Henry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 12:04:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: The Media

On the subject of the media and WWII:

There is an article in my local paper today about three ex-US Marines from
the local area who were in the 3rd Marine Division that invaded Guam.  In
the eighth paragraph of the article, the author states:

"Fifty-five thousand men, including the 1st Provisional Marine Brigade and
the 305th Regimental Comabt Team of the 77th Army Infantry Division, took
three weeks to secure the island, THE ONLY U.S. SOIL OCCUPIED BY THE
JAPANESE DURING WORLD WAR II."  (My empahis.)

I called the Editor and got a secretary who said she would definately
pass my comments about Wake Island, Attu Island, Kiska Island, and the
Philippines (which was a Commonwealth of the US) to her.  Yeah sure!

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 12:09:17 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA:Enola Gay

>From the DoD Newsire 19 September 1994

:SEN. BLASTS ENOLA GAY EXHIBIT

   WASHINGTON  -- Despite changes aimed at mollifying veterans,
the Smithsonian Institution's planned exhibit of the plane that
dropped the first atomic bomb remains tilted toward the Japanese, Sen.
Nancy Kassebaum said Monday.
   Kassebaum introduced a non-binding "sense of the Senate" resolution
Monday urging the Smithsonian to change the exhibit to emphasize the
bomb's role in ending World War II prior to an invasion of Japan,
which historians believe would have cost many more lives.
   "As it is currently written, the National Air and Space Museum's
script for the exhibit is revisionist, unbalanced and offensive," said
Kassebaum, R-Kan.
   The exhibit, titled "The Last Act: The Atomic Bomb and the End of
World War II," features the B-29 Enola Gay and is intended to mark the
50th anniversary of the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Japan.
   Criticism of the exhibit has centered on its focus toward the
aftermath and suffering wrought by the atomic bombs, while making
virtually no mention of the bloody Pacific war that led to their use.
   In response to previous criticism, the Smithsonian added a second
50-photo exhibit, titled "The War in the Pacific: An American
Perspective," which details Japanese aggression beginning in 1937, the
major battles and the U.S. capture of Okinawa.
   But Kassebaum said the two exhibits still include twice as many
photos of Japanese suffering as Americans.

======

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 11:10:12 -0500
From:    Michael D Wallick <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acts of Nature

 On Wed, 21 Sep 1994, Edward S. Miller wrote:

>   > My question is this:have there been any case of  combat being effected
>   > by acts of Nature (read God).
>
>   There come to mind three typhoons in the Pacific.  In late 1944 and again
> in summer 1945 huge storms caught the U.S. Third Fleet at sea, doing much
> damage and delaying some operations.  Wouk's "The Caine Mutiny" occurs
> during one of them.  Adm. Halsey was in command both times; after apparently
> bumbling into the seocnd one, he was relieved of command.  The third storm
> devastated Okinawa about October 1945, a few weeks before an invasion of
> Japan scheduled for 1 November (according to then US planning directives).
> The damage to the advanced base under development on Okinawa might well have
> delayed the invasion until spring 1946. Of course, we'll never know since
> Japan surrendered in August 1945.
>
>   Edward S. Miller  [email-masked]
>
You may wish to look at:

Calhoun, C. Raymond. TYPHOON, THE OTHER ENEMY: THE THIRD FLEET AND THE
PACIFIC STORM OF DECEMBER 1944. Annapolis, Md.: Naval Institute Press,
1981. ISBN 0870215108.

Michael D. Wallick

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 12:06:08 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA: Auschwitz

>From the DoD Newswire 19 September 1994

:GERMAN SOLDIERS VISIT FORMER NAZI CAMP

   OSWIECIM, Poland, Sept. 18  -- A delegation of the German
army, or the Bundeswehr, visited for the first time Sunday the former
Nazi death camp of Auschwitz and paid tribute to some 1.5 million
people killed at the camp during World War II.
   A group of 80 Bundeswehr soldiers and officers, along with 30
Danish and 30 Polish soldiers came to Oswiecim, or Auschwitz in
German, after completion of the five-day "Partnership for Peace"
exercises in central Poland this week.
   Some 920 soldiers from 13 NATO and Eastern Europen countries took
part in the maneuvers.
   The German soldiers laid flowers at the Death Wall in the center of
the camp where most of the executions took place.
   The soldiers, some of them weeping, toured in silence the red brick
barracks where Jews, Poles, Russians and other civilians from across
Europe were murdered from 1940 until the liberation of the camp by the
Soviet Red Army.
   The Soviets arbitrarily declared following the liberation of the
camp that 4 million people died in Auschwitz. But documents disclosed
in 1990 reported as many as 1.5 million people, most of them Jews,
perished in the death camp.
   The German soldiers and their Danish and Polish friends-in-arms
walked through the gate of the camp with the German inscription
"Arbeit Macht Frei" (Work makes you free) and then saw piles of shoes,
luggage bags, and 7 tons (7,112 kg) of human hair exibited in one of
the barracks as well as the infamous gas chambers.
   The Nazis made mattresses from the human hair.
   The Bundeswehr, Danish and Polish soldiers are scheduled to begin
Monday four days of joint exercises in southern Poland several miles
from the former camp.

=====

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 12:27:05 -0500
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acts of Nature

Although not strictly related, it occurs to me that several earthquakes
which hit Japan in '44-'45 might also be mentioned.  Several books on military
aircraft which I have seen mentioned the quakes as seriously delaying productionof new Japanese fighter types-- apparently the plants producing high-performancefighter engines were hit hard by the quakes.

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 09:45:50 -0700
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 22-SEP-1944

On 22-SEP-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The advance of the British XXX Corps is slowed down by German
resistance. Elst, five miles north of Nijmegen is captured. The Polish
paratroopers joined by the British 43rd Division try to reach the Rhine to
help the British airborne troops still cut off on the north bank. The German
garrison at Boulogne surrenders to the Canadian 3rd Infantry Division (II
Corps).

Eastern Front - The Leningrad Front captures Tallinn, capital of Estonia. In
Rumania, the Russian advance reaches Arad.

Italian Front - The entire 5th Army is now past the Gothic line. Only one
small strip on the Tyrrhenian coast remains in German hands; the area between
Leghorn and La Speczia.

Peleliu - The 321st Infantry Regiment (81st Division) replaces the 1st Marines
exhausted by the fighting on Mount Umurbrogol. The Japanese defences are still
holding strong.

Angaur - The 323rd Infantry Regiment (81st Division) presses on into the Lake
Salome area, but withdraw at nightfall.

Ulithi - A regiment from the (81st Division) lands on Ulithi.

The Homefront
-------------
Roosevelt Will Not Act On Pearl Harbor - President Roosevelt has announced
that he will not attempt to have Rear Adm. Husband E. Kimmel and Maj. Gen.
Walter C. Short courtmartialed in the Pearl Harbor investigation before the
election, pointing out that Army and Navy boards are still conducting
investigations.

French Embassy Reopened - The French Embassy is reopened by Henri Hoppenot,
chief of the de Gaullist delegation. This does not constitute resumption of
diplomatic relations between the US and France.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "Facts On File Yearbook 1944,
Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 12:29:38 -0500
From:    Michael D Wallick <[email-masked]>
Subject: VET: Locating Veterans

>From Ann Landers' column (Friday, September 16, 1994):

The American Legion now offers a service to help locate veterans.
For information, contact: Finders/Seekers at 1-800-449-VETS, or
write to VETS, P.O. Box 411007, St. Louis, Mo. 63141.  VETS
charges $15 to do a search, but the money will be refunded if
there is no information available.

Michael D. Wallick

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 10:42:42 -0700
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: 50 Years Ago - 21-SEP-1944

> >
> > General Roosevelt Honored - Brig. Gen. Theodore Roosevelt has been awarded the
> > Congressional Medal of Honor posthumously. Roosevelt died of a heart attack in
> > France.
> What were the grounds for awarding the Medal of Honor?-Drew
>
>

I should have included the full wording. From my source "Facts on File"
he was awarded the Medal of Honor "for gallantry and intrepidity at the
risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty." I would assume it
was because of his being part of the D-day invasion force in spite of bad
health.

------------
John Davis    [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 13:57:55 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRIVIA: Czech army

On Wed, 21 Sep 1994 11:37:24 -0400 Barone said:
>        So, with all that background, what if the Czechs had resisted
>the Germans' march into the Sudetenland?  Would World War II have ignited
>earlier or would it have fizzled out with Germany getting its butt kicked
>by reluctant Western Allies and a feisty Czechoslovakia?

Well, according to Hart, the German generals would have balked & marched on
Berlin instead (-:

ken koester
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 17:27:00 UTC
From:    "Edward S. Miller" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Island Hopping & the Phil

Steve New writes:
  >      One more point to raise when considering whether to "Bypass" the
  >  Philippines
  >      Unlike the majority of volcanic outcroppings and coral atolls that
  >  could be bypassed as insignificant to the war effort, the Philippine
  >  Islands were a nation, with all the resources of a nation available to
  >  them (manufacturing, shipbuilding, aircraft manufacture, etc.).  To
  >  leave such a resource in enemy hands deep inside our logistics train
  >  may have proven fatal to future US operations in the Pacific.
  > Especially since, at the time the decision was made, the A-bomb was
  >  not yet a reality.

  Dubious justifications.  The Philippines had no manufacturing capacity for
military goods.  Manila, and to a small degree Subic, had some ship repair
facilities, but they were largely destroyed by retreating Americans in 1941
and later by US bombing.  As to food production, the islands were semi-
starving at the time of liberation.
  Small islands were often more valuable in WWII.  The entire Pacific Fleet
was serviced in lagoons like Majuro, Eniwetok and Ulithi, atolls with only a
couple of square miles of dry land.  From the tiny Marianas the US launched
the most devastating strategic bombing campaign in history, beginning even
before the Philippines were invaded.   Tinian Island, only about 60 square
miles, supported 4 huge airfields.  In 1945 it was the world's biggest
airport, home to 800 B-29s as I recall.
  You are right that the A-bomb was an unknown factor when the decisions
were made.  BTW, North Field on Tinian, where the A-bombs were loaded, is
still open.  It's an eerie place to visit, totally deserted.
  Ed Miller

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 11:26:00 EST
From:    "Eliot K. Friedman" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRIVIA: Czech army

Tim Watts wrote>
We are approaching the anniversary of the Munich Conference that led to
the dismemberment of Czechoslavakia.  Common belief is that this was a
serious error by the Allies, because it eliminated the Czech army, which
could have been a serious and important ally in the war against Germany.
This has to be balanced against the idea that it gave the Allies another
year to prepare for war against Germany, so it was OK.  (Of course, it
gave Hitler another year to build up for war, but that's another story.)

My question, after this introduction, is what was the Order of Battle
for the Czech army in Sept. 1938?  If it was supposed to be one of the
better armies in Europe and would have been such an important addition
to the anti-Hitler coalition, what was its strength?

Anyone have any figures or sources where I can find out more about the
Czechs before Munich?

    Can't help you much on OB for the Czechs, but my understanding of the
    situation is that the mountainous, well-fortified Sudetenland border
    region (the part Hitler originally demanded supposedly because of it's
    mistreated ethnic German minority), sticking right into the heart of
    the Reich, constituted a strategic threat of the first order even if
    garrisoned by second rate troops.

    No Blitzkreig-friendly terrain here.  Invasion would have been much
    slower and more costly to the Germans than Poland proved to be.

    El

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 11:37:00 EST
From:    "Eliot K. Friedman" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re[2]: [INF] USAAF 21 Sep 44

Tim Watts wrote>
A question prompted by the chronology for this day and days previous.
Many of the missions flown were by aircraft carrying fuel over the Hump
from India to China.  I am assuming much of the supplies were aviation
fuel for the aircraft in China.  My question is whether there were any
indigenous (sp?) supplies of gasoline and fuel in China during WWII? Did
all the petroleum products have to come over the Himilayas or was there
any supply lines through the Soviet Union (a neutral in Asia)?  Just
wondering.
Also, what was the useful load for a B-24 or a C-47 flying from India
to China?  If aviation fuel, how many sorties for a P-40 or P-51?

    Allied supply in the Chinese theatre was an incredibly expensive
    affair, because of scarcity of resources in the local economy, the
    war's longest supply line, and massive corruption on the Kuomintang's
    part.  I recall reading that an American-made spark plug cost over $100
    US if purchased locally.

    I believe any domestic Chinese oil refining capacity had either been
    destroyed or conquered by the Japanese.  Crude "home-brew" fuel was
    available at a high price, but it was very hard on car/truck engines.
    I can't imagine it would ever be used in aircraft.

    As for the Soviets, political considerations aside, I doubt they had
    much oil to spare.

    El

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 14:49:14 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRIVIA: Czech army

>         Germany had eleven mobile units to Czechoslovakia's six.  However,
> the 454 tanks available to the four Czech mobile divisions were superior
> in guns and armor to the available German models.  (In itself, this does
> not mean much as the French demonstrated in 1940.)

Actually it meant quite a bit, as unlike the French models, the Germans
ADOPTED the Czech models as first line equipment, in fact using them
against the French with great success.

>         So, with all that background, what if the Czechs had resisted
> the Germans' march into the Sudetenland?  Would World War II have ignited
> earlier or would it have fizzled out with Germany getting its butt kicked
> by reluctant Western Allies and a feisty Czechoslovakia?

I think that the Czechs would have handed the Germans their heads.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 14:53:50 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Battalion Countermine Set

>
> >I have to ask-what is a Battalion Countermine Set?-Drew
>
>
> >What are your duties as "Weapons system manager"?
> >What is Battalion Countermine Set?
>
>
>
> 1.  The Battalion Countermine Set consists of the Mine Rake and the
> Mine Roller that are mounted on the front of an M1 Tank to clear
> lanes of movement through minefields.

I worked on the operational tests of these devices when I was a Project
Officer at the USAARENBD at Ft. Knox.  Had a lot of fun doing it too.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 14:07:46 EST
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: WEAP: Essex-class carriers

If memory serves, the Franklin at least was rebuilt.  I recall a TV
special from about 20 years ago dealing with the famous Kamikaze attacks
on the Franklin.  The occasion was the scrapping of the Franklin.  I
didn't get to see the show BTW as I had to go visit relatives, so if
anyone happens to have heard of the video, I would love to hear of it.
Thanks,
*****************************************************
(Roger) Brad Coon             The right to defend
[email-masked]          one's self and one's
[email-masked]    family against harm and
                              injustice is the most
                              basic civil right.

Proud to be a member of America's largest civil rights
group, the National Rifle Association.
******************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 14:12:43 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: 50 Years Ago - 21-SEP-1944

Hello, Drew!

If someone else doesn't post the answer to this, I can. I can post
the citation, which would contain the grounds for the award.

Will send it to you and the list tomorrow.

Terry

> > General Roosevelt Honored - Brig. Gen. Theodore Roosevelt has
been awarded the
> > Congressional Medal of Honor posthumously. Roosevelt died of a heart attack in
> > France.
> What were the grounds for awarding the Medal of Honor?-Drew
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 14:14:47 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acts of Nature

Hello, Drew!

There was also the occasion of the eruption of Mt. Vesuvius in Italy
that had an effect on ground operations.

Also the typhoon off Okinawa that postponed naval operations.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 14:37:01 -0500
From:    Jeff Dingbaum <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Island Hopping & the Phil

> From: "Edward S. Miller" <[email-masked]>

>   Small islands were often more valuable in WWII.  The entire Pacific Fleet
> was serviced in lagoons like Majuro, Eniwetok and Ulithi, atolls with only a
> couple of square miles of dry land.  From the tiny Marianas the US launched
> the most devastating strategic bombing campaign in history, beginning even
> before the Philippines were invaded.   Tinian Island, only about 60 square
> miles, supported 4 huge airfields.  In 1945 it was the world's biggest
> airport, home to 800 B-29s as I recall.

It would seem that a small island with would be much easier to secure
from hostile ground troops - if they were even there to begin with.

Jeff

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 16:26:56 -0500
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Acts of Nature

I'm not sure why those trees on Bougainville were falling, I believe monsoon
weather had something to do with it, soggy ground loosening root structures,
etc...also the nature of the terrain, with extremely heavy jungle...maybe
one of the Pacific experts on the list can shed more light.  The fact that
several dozen Allied soldiers were killed this way is mentioned in several
books, I believe "Eagle Against The Sun" and maybe Manchester's "Goodbye
Darkness"

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 16:46:51 CCS
From:    Jorge Merino <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Essex-class carriers

> If memory serves, the Franklin at least was rebuilt.  I recall a TV
> special from about 20 years ago dealing with the famous Kamikaze attacks
> on the Franklin.  The occasion was the scrapping of the Franklin.  I
> didn't get to see the show BTW as I had to go visit relatives, so if
> anyone happens to have heard of the video, I would love to hear of it.

If the Franklin was rebuilt, and scrapped about 20 years ago (that is the
early 70s, like CV-9 Essex, scrapped in 1973), I wonder if she was converted
to an ASW carrier (CVS), or an attack carrier (CVA). Which kind of role
has the "Big Ben" played during Korea and Vietnam wars?

Jorge Merino

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 19:56:00 UTC
From:    "Edward S. Miller" <[email-masked]>
Subject: The Media

Jack McKillop notes a newspaper report that:

   > "[Guam was] THE ONLY U.S. SOIL OCCUPIED BY THE  JAPANESE DURING WORLD
  > WAR II."  (My empahis.)   I called the Editor ... about Wake Island,
  > Attu Island, Kiska Island, and the Philippines (which was a Commonwealth
  > of the US.

Didn't the Japanese also occupy, at least briefly, Agattu Island between
Attu and Kiska?  Oddly neither side made use of Shemya Island, near Attu, an
old atoll (!).  It was the only Aleutian Island flat enough for a big
airfield, site of a big postwar USAF base.

Ed Miller

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 20:49:42 -0400
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: VET: Locating Veterans

With all this talk about MoH winners living in poverty and locating
veterans, I thought I may put the two together. I'm supposed to work on a
magazine piece of local interest, and I thought that this may be a good
subject to work on (especially with the 50yr anniversary of the end of
the war coming up). What I want to know is if anyone knows of any MoH
winners who are living in the Boston area (from WWII or other
wars/conflicts). I think it would be interesting to interview them and
see how the MoH has affected their lives. There would also be the
advantage that I could give you all a definitive answer on a) why people
did what they did to win the MoH and b) if they think the rewards
(monetary or emotional) were worth it. Thanks in advance for any
information. My personal E-mail address is [email-masked]
David Rising

Oh, BTW, if you happen to know MoH winners who have led particularly
interesting/colorful lives but don't happen to live in the Boston area,
let me know about that too. Thanks,
Dave

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 21:07:02 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: THE MEDIA

Jack, please. There is no such thing as an ex-Marine. They are either former,
retired, or serving. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 21:07:08 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ACTS OF NATURE

Bougainville, just in from the landing beaches, is a mess of morasses and
swamps. Trafficability was difficult as was any movement. There is also
generally a large rainfall in the area of the invasion. Because the the heavy
rains and winds, and because the big trees did not have deep roots, casualties
resulted. Bougainville was not a pleasant place, as 3d MarDiv and 3d Raider
Battalion vets of the operation will tell you. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 21:04:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 22 SEP 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
FRIDAY, 22 SEPTEMBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-7, Consolidated Liberator
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): 13 B-24s fly fuel to Liuchow, China; C-47s
fly 170+ sorties to various points in the CBI. The detachment of the 24th
Combat Mapping Squadron, 8th Photographic Reconnaissance Group, moves from
Liuchow to Chanyi, China with F-7s (the squadron is based at Guskhara,
India).

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 24 B-24s pound Hankow; 12 B-25s and
7 P-51s hit the Hengyang road junction and ferry; 7 B-25s bomb Kianghwa while
6 P-51s damage a nearby bridge; 5 B-25s hit Yungming; 44 P-40s and P-51s
blast targets of opportunity along roads in the Changsha, Siangtan, and
Sintsiang areas. 50+ other P-40s and P-51s hit various targets of opportunity
around Chuanhsien, Paoching, Lingling, Hankow, and Kiyang.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 645: 661 bombers are
dispatched to hit armored vehicle and motor vehicle factories at Kassel/
Henschel, Germany, bombing by PFF:
  1. 453 B-17s are dispatched; 410 hit the primary, 10 hit Wetzlar and 7 hit
targets of opportunity; 3 B-17s are lost and 104 damaged; 7 airmen are WIA
and 27 MIA.
  2. 208 of 208 B-24s hit the primary; 3 bombers are damaged.
  Escort is provided by 268 of 286 P-51s; 1 is lost (pilot MIA) and 1
damaged beyond repair.
  The last Operation FRANTIC mission ends as 84 B-17s and 51 P-51s return to
the UK from Italy; the remaining aircraft return on 8 Oct.
  77 of 79 P-47s patrol the Arnhem, the Netherlands area; 1 P-47 is lost and
1 damaged beyond repair.
  108 B-24s fly fuel to France.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): No bomber missions are flown. In
Germany, fighters attack railroads, supply and ordnance depots, and
strongpoints, and fly sweeps and armed reconnaissance over the Cologne,
Dusseldorf, Aachen, Koblenz, Trier, Bonn, Mannheim, and Strasbourg areas. In
France, HQ 406th Fighter Group and the 513th Fighter Squadron move from Le
Mans to Mourmelon-le-Grand with P-47s; the 377th Fighter Squadron, 362d
Fighter Group, moves from Rennes to Prosnes with P-47s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Germany, 366 B-24s and B-17s
escorted by 270 fighters bomb the NE industrial area of Munich and Munich/
Riem Airfield. 76 B-24s bomb the marshalling yard at Larissa, Greece. 68
B-24s fly a supply mission to S France.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy operating N of the
Italian battle area, medium bombers bomb road and rail bridges, while fighter-
bombers continue hitting roads, railroads, and transportation, and support
ground forces as US Fifth Army elements prepare to pursue the enemy
withdrawing from N of Pistoia and to drive N to Raticosa Pass and NE to
Imola; British Eighth Army forces battle the enemy along the Marecchia River;
HQ 87th Fighter Wing moves from Furiani, Corsica to Caserta; the 84th
Bombardment Squadron (Light), 47th Bombardment Group (Light), moves from
Salon, France to Follonica with A-20s. In Corsica, the 438th Bombardment
Squadron (Medium), 319th Bombardment Group (Medium), moves from Decimomannu,
Sardinia to Serragio with B-26s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 15 Saipan Island-based B-24s strike shipping at
Chichi Jima Island. In the Mariana Islands, 24 P-47s strafe Pagan Island and
bomb Anatahan Island. 3 B-24s on a snooper mission and armed reconnaissance
flight bomb Iwo Jima and Marcus Islands. 15 B-25s, flying out of Makin
Island, bomb Nauru Island.

  HQ AAF (Twentieth Air Force): Ground echelons of the 877th, 878th and 879th
Bombardment Squadrons (Very Heavy), 499th Bombardment Group (Very Heavy),
arrive at Isley Field, Saipan Island (first mission is 24 Nov).

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: On Celebes Island,
B-24s again pound Sidate and Mapanget. B-24s and B-25s bomb Amahai on Ceram
Island and Liang on Ambon Island and the airfield on Haroekoe Island. In New
Guinea, A-20s pound Urarom Airfield while fighter-bombers hit Idorra,
Windissi, Moemi, and Kaimana; HQ 5th Bombardment Group (Heavy) moves from
Wakde Island to Noemfoor Island; the 342d Fighter Squadron, 348th Fighter
Group, moves from Wakde Island to Noemfoor Island with P-47s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

22/0106Z SEP

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 21:15:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [INF] USAAF 21 Sep 44

 >A question prompted by the chronology for this day and days previous.
 >Many of the missions flown were by aircraft carrying fuel over the Hump
 >from India to China.  I am assuming much of the supplies were aviation
 >fuel for the aircraft in China.  My question is whether there were any
 >indigenous (sp?) supplies of gasoline and fuel in China during WWII? Did
 >all the petroleum products have to come over the Himilayas or was there
 >any supply lines through the Soviet Union (a neutral in Asia)?  Just
 >wondering.
 >Also, what was the useful load for a B-24 or a C-47 flying from India
 >to China?  If aviation fuel, how many sorties for a P-40 or P-51?
 >Tim J. Watts
 >Valparaiso University

In Jun 44, the Japanese began a drive in China that threatened
several AAF bases.  The fighters began full scale operations to
hinder the enemy.  In the middle of Jun 44,  B-29s of the XX
Bomber Command based in India began using bases in China as forward
operationg locations.  Both of these operations put a heavy demand
on the supply of avgas and from 20 Jun to Sep 44, the B-24s of the
7th Bombardment Group (Heavy), Tenth Air Force, were used to haul
avgas from India to China joining the Air Transport Command in this
mission.  Also in the Jun-Sep time period, the Japanese attacked
Imphal, India and the British and Indian forces defended the area
and finally went on the offensive.

All of these operations required a large amount of troops and
equipment and supplies and the aircraft of Tenth AF and Air
Transport Command were pressed to meet all the needs.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 21:21:54 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: 50 YEARS AGO

The wording you have given for Gen Roosevelt's MOH states exactly why the MOH
is awarded--fpr gallantry and intrepidity of action above and beyond the call
of duty at the risk of his own life. This applies equally to those who fall on
an enemy grenade as well as the leader who heads up a charge in the face of
certain death. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 21:24:04 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: WAR PLAN YELLOW

Ed, somehow my computer went cuckoo-crazy before I downloaded your entire
posting about WP Yellow. Could you please transmit it to me again. The last
line I received read: ...brilliant drunk who died on an amateurish spy mission
in Micronesia in 1923. I would like to read what else you wrote. Two items:
Pete Ellis died under mysterious circumstances on Peleliu, I believe, and the
Navy chief hospitalcorpsman who was sent from Japan to retrieve his ashes went
"crazy" when he returned to Japan, and then was killed in the great earthquake
that Japan suffered that year. Also, Dirk Ballendorf and Skip Bartlett have
written a biography of Ellis which Naval Institute is publishing and in which
they purport to come up with hitherto unknown facts about Ellis. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 21:31:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: USS Franklin (CV-13)

 >> If memory serves, the Franklin at least was rebuilt.  I recall a TV
 >> special from about 20 years ago dealing with the famous Kamikaze attacks
 >> on the Franklin.  The occasion was the scrapping of the Franklin.  I
 >> didn't get to see the show BTW as I had to go visit relatives, so if
 >> anyone happens to have heard of the video, I would love to hear of it.
 >
 >If the Franklin was rebuilt, and scrapped about 20 years ago (that is the
 >early 70s, like CV-9 Essex, scrapped in 1973), I wonder if she was converted
 >to an ASW carrier (CVS), or an attack carrier (CVA). Which kind of role
 >has the "Big Ben" played during Korea and Vietnam wars?
 >
 >Jorge Merino

The keel of the Essex Class aircraft carrier FRANKLIN was laid down
on 7 Dec 42, she was launched on 14 Oct 43 and commissioned on 31
Jan 44.  She was severly damaged by bombs off Kyushu on 19 Mar 45
which cost 724 dead and 265 wounded.  She made it back to the
Brooklyn Navy Yard, New York on her own power.  She was repaired
participated in MAGIC CARPET operations in 1946 and decommissioned
on 17 Jan 47.  She was redesignated an Attack Aircraft Carrier
(CVA-13) on 1 Oct 52 and an Antisubmarien Warfare Support Carrier
(CVS-13) on 8 Aug 53.  She was reclassified an Auxiliary Aircraft
Transport (AVT-8) on 15 May 59 and her name was struck from the
Navy List on 1 Oct 64.  FRANKLIN was partially scrapped in 1965,
and her hulk was sold on 27 Jul 66.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 21:38:52 -0400
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WAR PLAN YELLOW

On Wed, 21 Sep 1994, Ben Frank wrote:

> Ed, somehow my computer went cuckoo-crazy before I downloaded your entire
> posting about WP Yellow. Could you please transmit it to me again. The last
> line I received read: ...brilliant drunk who died on an amateurish spy mission

While you're at Ed, do you have any info on that mission? I hate being
left hanging. Cheers,
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 21:40:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Agattu Island

 >Jack McKillop notes a newspaper report that:
 >
 >   > "[Guam was] THE ONLY U.S. SOIL OCCUPIED BY THE  JAPANESE DURING WORLD
 >  > WAR II."  (My empahis.)   I called the Editor ... about Wake Island,
 >  > Attu Island, Kiska Island, and the Philippines (which was a Commonwealth
 >  > of the US.
 >
 >Didn't the Japanese also occupy, at least briefly, Agattu Island between
 >Attu and Kiska?  Oddly neither side made use of Shemya Island, near Attu, an
 >old atoll (!).  It was the only Aleutian Island flat enough for a big
 >airfield, site of a big postwar USAF base.
 >
 >Ed Miller

Ed,

I think they did, at lease the Eleventh Air Force kept bombing it
between Jul 42 and Mar 43.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 21:55:39 EDT
From:    Cassady Craft <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [INF] USAAF 21 Sep 44

Could someone tell me what type of ammunition the M1 Garand uses?
Is it the .30-06 Springfield round, or something different?

Cassady Craft
Department of Political Science
University of Georgia
e-mail [email-masked]
or
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 22:43:29 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WAR PLAN YELLOW

David, there have been any number of articles about LtCol Ellis which have
appeared in Institute Proceedings, Marine Corps Gazette, and Leatherneck, and
he has been written about in Soldiers of the Sea by Robert D. Heinl as well as
Semper Fidelis by Allan Millett. Also you can read about him in The U.S. Marine
Corps Story by J. Robert Moskin. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 22:43:35 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: USS FRANKLIN (CV-13)

I have what I think is an interesting memory of the Franklin. When the Okinawa
invasion fleet was in Ulithi anchorage, on a rainy, foggy afternoon of the
Saturday a week before L-Day, 1Apr45, out of the fog and mist came a very
strange sight. It was a large carrier leaning on the shoulder, so it seemed, of
the cruiser that was escorting her. I was standing at the railing of our
transport with a couple of communicators, one of whom had a recognition manual
and from that book, we recognized that the cruiser was the San Francisco, I
believe, and the carrier was the Franklin, being shepherded into the anchorage
after being badly mauled off Japan. Morison gives a good description of the
travail that the Franklin experienced and the heroism of its crew as well as
that of the San Francisco's. I also heard that the Franklin made its own way
back to Brooklyn for repairs, while some repairs were done underway. A
particular note was that some of the crew who were caught in compartments, at
stations, etc., where they died, were still there to be retrieved when the
carrier hit Brooklyn. There is a particularly poignant picture I have once seen
of the Big Ben passing under Brooklyn Bridge, taken from the bridge. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 19:38:29 -0700
From:    Jim Curry <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRIV: American helmets

US forces wore the old

US forces wore the old WWI tin hat for about the first six months of the war.
The newer helmet with liner had been officially adopted in 1941 but was not
widely available until the next year.  Photographs of Americans at Pearl
Harbor and in the Philippines always depict them in the old model. So do
pictures of the troops who landed in Northern Ireland in early 1942.
I have seen at least one photo,taken aboard USS Yorktown at Midway, that
shows both helmet styles being worn at the same time.  After that the new
model quickly replaced the old. I have heard that many of the old tin
hats were supplied to the Chinese and other allies through Lend-Lease.
I don't know of any scientific studies of the effect of the new helmet
in reducing neck wounds, but you only have to look at it to see it
provided better
protection.
Jim Curry

On Sun, 18 Sep 1994, Tim J. Watts wrote:

> Hopefully, this will not seem like too trivial a question.
>
> In all the movies and pictures from around the time of Pearl Harbor,
> American servicemen are wearing helmets similar (identical?) to those
> worn in WW 1.  When did the GI pot (a la Bill Mauldin) replace it?  It
> is impossible to imagine the war without that helmet.
>
> Also, since the British apparently kept the same earlier style
> throughout the war, did anyone ever do a study of wounds to the neck
> and lower skull that might have been covered by an American-style
> helmet?  The british-style doesn't seem to come lower than the ears,
> so I assume they would have had more shrapnel wounds in that area
> than the Americans.  Does anybody know?
>
> Tim J. Watts
> Valparaiso University
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 23:03:00 -0400
From:    Joe Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TRIVIA: Czech army

Christopher Morton <[email-masked]> writes:
>>         Germany had eleven mobile units to Czechoslovakia's six.  However,
>> the 454 tanks available to the four Czech mobile divisions were superior
>> in guns and armor to the available German models.  (In itself, this does
>> not mean much as the French demonstrated in 1940.)
>
> Actually it meant quite a bit, as unlike the French models, the Germans
> ADOPTED the Czech models as first line equipment, in fact using them
> against the French with great success.

        What I meant was that tactics and doctrine play a role in the
effectiveness of armor.  The French tanks that the Germans encountered
was superior in armor and firepower but they were utilized as infantry
support and were sent in piecemeal against the Panzers.  DeGaulle's
4th Armored Division showed what French tanks were capable of when used
properly.  (The Germans didn't bother adding French tanks to their first
line equipment because they were so slow.  They were incorporated into
garrison units and their chassis were used for self-propelled artillery.)

        Similarly, despite having superior tanks, the Czechs may have
squandered their resources.  The TOE for a Czech armor division seems
to indicate a more "German" way of viewing their tanks but I can't say
with any certainty that that would have been the case.  In any event,
the value of armor would have been dubious in the mountainous terrain
of the Sudetenland.
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
We are holding ourselves in reserve in case the Krauts mount a
counteroffensive that threatens Paris or, uh, New York.  Then we
can move in and stop them.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 21 Sep 1994 18:53:05 -0700
From:    Jim Curry <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Aftermath of Market Garden???

Hello, Pascal! Me again!
Once the Germans stopped the Market Garden offensive,nothing much happened
in that vicinity for months. Many of Montgomery's troops (especially the
Canadians)were kept busy in the difficult and bloody Walcheren
campaign,clearing the approaches to Antwerp--which could and should have
been done before Market Garden was attempted.  Meanwhile the Dutch people
in unliberated Holland north of the Rhine had a very hard winter--trying
to live on tulip bulbs or anything else they could find. There was real
famine by spring. Liberation came in the spring when the British and
Canadians got across the Rhine.
Market Garden was the one major battlefield defeat the Allies suffered in
Western Europe after D-Day.  Whatever chance of success Montgomery's
uncharacteristically daring plan had was squandered by bad intelligence
and sloppy planning.
Jim Curry

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 20 Sep 1994 to 21 Sep 1994
*************************************************