Subject: WWII-L Digest - 15 Sep 1994 to 16 Sep 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 17 Sep 1994 00:01:47 -0400

There are 62 messages totalling 2063 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Bletchley Park
  2. INF: USN Chronology 09-16-94
  3. $'S FOR HEROISM (W (2)
  4. 'Stalin wanted to ... maintain peace in ur
  5. 50TH: PACIFIC ANNIVERS (4)
  6. chaucer in world war two (2)
  7. WEAP: Manned V-1 bombs
  8. Navajo Code Talkers (2)
  9. WEAP-Preserved ships one more time
 10. MEDIA: Enola Gay
 11. INF: 50 Years Ago - 17-SEP-1944
 12. ADMIN: Announcement (2)
 13. GEN: ROLE OF ALASKA IN WWII (3)
 14. Medals $
 15. NYC TV (4)
 16. DICTIONARY OF OPERATIO
 17. CAF airshow
 18. Len Deighton (2)
 19. Lou Coatney
 20. Freeman Field
 21. WEAP:(?)  Foo Fighters
 22. PELELIU (3)
 23. Lou & Uncle Joe
 24. Peleliu
 25. Fw: ADMIN: Announcement (2)
 26. Peleliu and Morotai (4)
 27. 50TH: PACIFIC ANNIVERSARIES
 28. V-1, Hs 293, and other...
 29. WEAP: Vintage ships and scrap values
 30. very negative waves Moriarty.
 31. Wargames and Academia
 32. Merrill's Marauders
 33. CAF Airshow Repost
 34. 50TH: LETTER HOME FROM BELGIUM (fwd) (2)
 35. Butgenbach and Peiper (fwd) (2)
 36. ADMIN: ANNOUNCEMENT
 37. PELELIU AND MOROTA
 38. NAVAJO CODE TALKERS
 39. PELELIU AND MOROTAI
 40. 50TH: PACIFIC ANNI
 41. MEDIA - 50TH: PACIFIC ANNIVERS

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 08:54:01 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Bletchley Park

Thanks to Sidney Kitchel for an interesting post on Ultra, Coventry, etc.
Sidney - does the book mention about the withholding from the Russuans of
information gleaned on the Eastern Front? I have heard somewhere that we
didn't want to help the Russians too much and so were selective with
what we passed over to them.

Also - a number of people who worked in the hut for eastern front stuff
ended up being famous spies for the Russians. Are these people mentioned?

FYI, There are plans afoot to turn Bletchley Park into a museum - it
is not yet prepared, and has only within the last year or two been
saved from the developers.

Steve Baldwin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 01:15:42 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 09-16-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
09/16 Sat. Second Quebec Conference attended by the President
           and British Prime Minister ends; conference has been
           in session since 11 September 1944.
           Marine Air Wings, Pacific is redesignated Aircraft,
           Fleet Marine Force, Pacific (Maj. Gen. F. P. Mulcahy)
           with headquarters at Ewa, Oahu, T.H.
            United States naval vessel damaged:
             Destroyer WADLEIGH (DD-689), by mine, Palau Islands
              area, Caroline Islands,
              07 d. 51'N., 134 d. 39'E.
            Japanese naval vessel sunk:
             Escort carrier UNYO, by submarine BARB (SS-220),
              South China Sea,
              19 d. 18'N., 116 d. 26'E.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 02:54:13 -0800
From:    Ron Skinner <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: $'S FOR HEROISM (W

>No, I never have heard of someone trying to get himself killed. Which brings up
>another point. People speak of other people "winning" the Medal of Honor, or
>the Navy Cross. I don't believe that anyone is in competition for a posthumous
>award. The correct terminology is that "so-and-so was decorated...." or
>"earned" whatever medal you want to indicate. I don't think that anyone who
>threw himself on a grenade--which is the most common way of earning the
>MOH--purposely does so with a view toward getting killed. There are cases of
>individuals becoming berserk and dashing forward in the face of certain death,
>but that was a happenstance or momentary lapse in judgement and good sense. Ben
>Frank

Well said, Frank. I think you'll agree that heroes who earn the Medal of
Honor or other high decorations are ordinary men caught up in a vortex of
events who react in ways often unfathomable to themselves as well as to us.
The truth is that a young man who gives his life in an incandescent moment
of valor may have been yesterday's barracks thief and, had he lived, might
well have been tomorrow's.

Having had the opportunity to observe brave men at close quarters for
protracted periods--though surely to a far lesser extent than you--I can
assert that they are a very pedestrian lot. Some are gentle, refined men
and, as in the society that produced them, some are unmitigated louts.

On the subject of the brave, I (and I'm sure all members of the list) would
like to send along a personal salute and a mute apology for a country
seemingly oblivious to the gallant sacrifices at Peleliu fifty years ago.
The Duke of Wellington summed it up rather well when he said, "The next
dreadful thing to a battle lost is a battle won."

Ron Skinner

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 07:20:27 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 'Stalin wanted to ... maintain peace in ur

Benjamin B. Weber <[email-masked]> said,...

>On Wed, 14 Sep 1994, Louis R. Coatney wrote:
>
>> Yes, this *sounds* like the Julie Jenkins I know.  :-) >
>
>This *sounds* like a personal attack.  Is this appropriate?  I would
>appreciate clarification or input from other members of the list.
>        IMHO, I think that we should keep our debates above the belt.

I'd like to quote an article I read about FIDONET, a BBS link out in
SanFransisco,... the inventor/owner wears a punk mohawk colored for
the week. His style of running the bulletin board is "anarchial". I
understand our conference to be worlds away from his. As you can
imagine, the flames rise high on his system. So he has a couple of
things to ask of his clients: "that they not become excessively
annoying", and "that they not become excessively annoyed". That about
sums it up for me as I understand the world and its rules; anarchy
will always be the tendency if we are all non-vigilant of our own
sensitivities.

Alan G. Wild
Admin. Computing
University of Rhode Island
Kingston, R.I.  02881

I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 07:27:05 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 50TH: PACIFIC ANNIVERS

Hello, Ben!

> Yes, John, you are absolutely correct. The media has not paid much attention to
> the Pacific with the exception of Pearl Harbor Day and Guadalcanal.

    There is no doubt about that. I really think the Leyte Gulf
operation should be commemorated as there were more members of our
armed forces there than the Navy and Marine Corps combined had in
their ranks in 1938. There were something like 240,000 Americans
involved in that operation, and as yet, not one word about a
commemoration ceremony. The aniversary for that is 23 October.

 Guam was an
> important operation to commemorate, and the Guamanians made a big thing of it,
> as did the Saipan citizens. I know that there will be a big bash next February
> for Iwo Jima and in April for Okinawa. The media are having a feeding frenzy
> over Haiti, issuing all sorts of scripts, and they don't know doodly. Too bad.

    Yeah, but that is our media for you. It really makes one wonder,
especially after the very few remarks made about the career of
General Doolittle when he passed away last year. That should tell you
something of the media in this country.

    Thanks for letting me ramble. Thank you for your post. They are
very interesting and thought provoking as always.

    All the best.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 08:25:33 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: chaucer in world war two

Forwarded (w/o permission, though I doubt the author would mind!) to this
list's gurus & knowledge-mongers (-:  If you reply to this message, mind
its origin on list =LITERARY= & do not send back to me!

ken koester
[email-masked]

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Some years ago I saw a movie about wartime England which
used the idea of Chaucer's Canterbury Tales as a vehicle for
raising morale during the worst months of the German blitz of
southeast England.  It was called something like *New Canterbury
Tales* I think, or possibly had the word Pilgrims in the title,
obviously referring to Chaucer's Pilgrims.  The point of the film
was that the virtues and strengths of medieval Brits were still
very much alive in the darkest days of the war and that those
qualities would see everyone through to final victory.  There
were continual allusions to Chaucer's poem during the course of
the film.

Does anyone know this film?  Its exact title?  Its date?  The
director?  or anything else about it?

I am writing a book on England during the war and would like to
refer to this film, but I can't find any reference to it in all
the obvious film reference books here in North America.

Thanks.

John Cooper
English
University of British Columbia

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 07:29:15 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Manned V-1 bombs

Hello, Jorge!

> Over 150 were built, but I think they weren't used operationally.

    No, they weren't used operationally.

    Terry
> Jorge Merino

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 08:44:41 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 50TH: PACIFIC ANNIVERS

On Fri, 16 Sep 1994 07:27:05 GMT-6 Robert T. Moore said:
>    Yeah, but that is our media for you. It really makes one wonder,
>especially after the very few remarks made about the career of
>General Doolittle when he passed away last year. That should tell you
>something of the media in this country.

Actually, it tells you something of the people in this country.  "The media"
are a business like any other, producing a product for the delight of their
consumers.  Generally they produce what those consumers want.  When they
determine that the consumers want something else, they provide something
else.  Obviously, they haven't gotten the idea that consumers want a
remembrance of things 50 years past.  The conclusion to be drawn is that
consumers ought to get real vocal real quick before the 50 years
anniversaries of everything pass by.  Even a small number of consumers
getting *VERY* vocal real quick could do the job.

ken koester
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 09:00:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 50TH: PACIFIC ANNIVERS

DELETED MATERIAL ABOUT NON-COMMERATIVE EVENTS IN THE PACIFIC

 >    Yeah, but that is our media for you. It really makes one wonder,
 >especially after the very few remarks made about the career of
 >General Doolittle when he passed away last year. That should tell you
 >something of the media in this country.

Terry,

I am not a media lover and am constantly calling and e-mailing them
with my comments.  However, the media is a bunch of people that
were educated in this country so perhaps we should go back to the
root cause of all this, our education system and perhaps our value
system.  SAT scores are falling (so we change the grading scheme)
and people worship the Almighty Dollar (and what it can bring), the
moral values of the country are declining rapidly, etc.  Anything
that happened ten years ago is ancient history and YOU WANT ME TO
SACRIFICE???????????????????

One of the local New York City TV stations went to the Haitian
community last night after Clinton's speech and the reporter asked
Haitian emigrants if they thought the US invasion of Haiti was just
and required.  Every one said YES!  Question 2 was, "Would you
be willing to participate in the invasion of Haiti?"  Every one
hesitated and then recited the stock, standard answer, "Well yes, if
I were in the military."  But they are not and don't want to be.
Another American trait today is "NOT ME!, let someone else do it."

 >    Thanks for letting me ramble. Thank you for your post. They are
 >very interesting and thought provoking as always.
 >
 >    All the best.
 >
 >    Terry

Ditto your last paragraph.

Jack McKillop

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 09:09:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: chaucer in world war two

 >Some years ago I saw a movie about wartime England which
 >used the idea of Chaucer's Canterbury Tales as a vehicle for
 >raising morale during the worst months of the German blitz of
 >southeast England.  It was called something like *New Canterbury
 >Tales* I think, or possibly had the word Pilgrims in the title,
 >obviously referring to Chaucer's Pilgrims.  The point of the film
 >was that the virtues and strengths of medieval Brits were still
 >very much alive in the darkest days of the war and that those
 >qualities would see everyone through to final victory.  There
 >were continual allusions to Chaucer's poem during the course of
 >the film.
 >
 >Does anyone know this film?  Its exact title?  Its date?  The
 >director?  or anything else about it?

According to LEONARD MALTIN'S MOVIE AND VIDEO GUIDE 1994, there was
a British film released in 1944 entitled A CANTERBURY TALE directed
by Michael Powell and Emeric Pressburger.  It was 124 minutes long,
black and white and starred Eric Portman, Sheila Sim, John Sweet,
Dennis Price, Esmond Knight, Charles Hawtrey and Hay Petrie.
According to Maltin, "Curious and disarming film from the
Powell-Pressburger writing-and-directing team draws on British
eccentricities--and provincial flavor--to flesh out its simple
story about three people whose lives cross in a small English
village during the war.  There's only the slightest tangent with
the Chaucer work from which it draws it title.  American version
with added  footage of Kim Hunter runs 95 minutes and doesn't
retain the charm of the original."  He rates it 3 stars out of a
possible 4.  At one time or another, the film was released on home
video (Beta, VHS and/or Laserdisc).

 >I am writing a book on England during the war and would like to
 >refer to this film, but I can't find any reference to it in all
 >the obvious film reference books here in North America.
 >
 >Thanks.
 >
 >John Cooper
 >English
 >University of British Columbia

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 09:34:20 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 50TH: PACIFIC ANNIVERS

Say Jack,

Did you hear Dan Rather threaten Cedras?
                                                        Steve
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - [email-masked] |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 09:44:53 EDT
From:    Jerry Kasiowniak <[email-masked]>
Subject: Navajo Code Talkers

A question about Navajos (and other American Indians) in World War II:

Were American Indians drafted during World War II?

I always thought they were exempt from military service during WWII. That
Indians we are talking about as code talkers etc., were volunteers.

Is this true?

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 08:56:53 EST
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: WEAP-Preserved ships one more time

        One last book about preserved WW 2 ships.  I came across this
one yesterday quite by accident.  It is _Steel Ships and Iron Men_ by
Bruce Roberts, 1991, ISBN 0871062445.  It contains photos of ships at
their present sites and brief stories about each.  I just had a chance
to glance at it, but aside from identifying a 20mm gun on a sub as 40mm,
it looked very interesting.
        Still hoping I can put together a battleship tour vacation some
day,
*****************************************************
(Roger) Brad Coon             The right to defend
[email-masked]          one's self and one's
[email-masked]    family against harm and
                              injustice is the most
                              basic civil right.

Proud to be a member of America's largest civil rights
group, the National Rifle Association.
******************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 09:17:00 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA: Enola Gay

I copied this from RISKS.COM, dated 10 September 1994, wihout
permission.

The Dragon De Monsyne ([email-masked]) wrote:

...In today's (Sept. 5, 1994, Final Edition) Northwest Herald (a
local paper in the far northwest Chicago suburbs, McHenry
County, fer those who know where that is), pg 3, bottom, left
corner, I found this gem.
        "Atomic bombers criticize Enola homosexual exhibit..."

Henry Troup - [email-masked] (Canada)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 07:21:32 -0700
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 17-SEP-1944

On 17-SEP-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - Operation Market Garden is launched, the landing of Allied
parachute and airborne troops in Holland, near Arnhem, Nijmegen and Eindhoven.
The objective is the penetration into the Ruhr basin. The 1st Airborne Army is
assigned the operation. The British 1st Airborne Division is to be dropped or
landed on Arnhem with the task of capturing the bridges over the lower Rhine.
The US 101st Airborne Division will attack north of Eindhoven and the US 82nd
Airborne Division near Grave, south of Nijmegen. If successful, the operation
will create a corridor along the line Eindhoven-Nijmegen-Arnhem and will allow
the XXX Corps (British 2nd Army) to advance north from Belgium into the heart
of Holland. The US 101st Division lands without trouble and occupies
Eindhoven. They take the bridges over the Wilhelmina and Zuiter Willemsvaart
canals. The 82nd captures the bridge over the Meuse at Grave, but fail to
capture the bridge at Nijmegen, due to a heavy German counter-attack. The
British find the road to Arnhem blocked by very strong German resistance. Only
the 2nd Battalion manages to reach the bridge over the Rhine. They are halted
there and cut off. In other sectors, the Canadian 3rd Division launches an
attack against Boulogne.

Italian Front - The US IV Corps launches an attack on the left flank.

Peliliu - During the night a Japanese counter-attack on the north end of the
beachhead is replused by mortar fire and fire from ships. With the south of
the island captured, the 1st and 5th Marines mount attacks from the southwest
and southeast on the southern parts of Mount Umurbrogol which is heavily
fortified. They are halted with heavy losses after taking only one or two
pill-boxes. The heavy guns of the battleship Mississippi is called into action
against the Japanese positions with good success. The 8th Infantry
Division lands on Anguar Island against weak Japanese resistance.

Morotai - The US 31st Division begins mopping up the island.

Burma - The 5th Indian Division captures Tuitum.

Foreign Affairs
---------------
London Blackout Ends - British blackout restrictions are relaxed. In London,
this has little effect because street lights were already being allowed to be
used. Also, due to a lack of textile materials most homes continue to use the
heavy blackout curtains.

The Homefront
-------------
Congressmen Can't Get To France - Eight US Congressmen have held a protest
meeting in London with General Eisenhower because of delays in obtaining Army
permission for them to visit French battle areas. They request that matters be
expedited. Eisenhower says arrangements will be made for their immeditate
visit "to see whatever they wish to see."

Destroyer Reported Lost In Hurricane - The Navy has reported that the
destroyer Warrington and two Coast Guard cutters were lost in the hurricance
on the 14th.

Football - Green Bay 14, Brooklyn 7.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "Facts On File Yearbook 1944,
Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 10:32:19 -0400
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: ADMIN: Announcement

        While I rarely, if ever, announce the removal of a member from
the list, I feel that this case warrants an exception.  As many of you
may recall, Jack McKillop posted a news release concerning the recovery
of the bodies of MIAs from previous wars including WWII.  One member,
Lou Coatney, responded with an inflammatory tirade directed at President
Clinton.  If this were an isolated instance, I would have warned him to
keep current political messages off the list.  However, he has repeatedly
done this and I felt my warnings went unheeded.  Since I believed that he
was a knowledgeable contributor to the list, I gave him greater latitude
than I would have given to someone who only posted flames.  I can only
speculate that perhaps this latitude was perceived as an unwillingness
to act rather than a courtesy.  In this latest instance, I privately
challenged Lou to explain the relevance of his post to WWII.  He remained
silent despite remaining active on the list.  After 24 hours of waiting
for a response and receiving none, I removed him from the list.  If you
wish to continue threads with Lou, you will have to direct your email
directly to [email-masked].
--
Joe Barone, WWII-L listowner
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 23:04:50 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN: ROLE OF ALASKA IN WWII

  September 16, 1994
  Could someone give me a short lecture on the role of Alaska in WWII?
  According to Weinberg in his WORLD AT ARMS, its mail role was to provide a
base for ferrying planes to the Soviet Union.  The role of the Alaska Highway
was to provide fuel etc. to the bases used by these aircraft.
  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 11:54:00 -0400
From:    Mark Conrad <[email-masked]>
Subject: Medals $

In regard to the small stipends or one-time awards given out with
medals and decorations, some background may make this custom more
understandable.  Two or three centuries ago old soldiers often had
to take to begging, brave deeds on the battlefield  or not.  Slowly,
pensions were introduced by the state, with preference given to those
most worthy, i.e. men with unblemished records or holding medals.
This also kept society's conscince clean in so far as they didn't have
to see brave or mutilated veterans starving in the gutters. This was
 the real function of small stipends coming with medals - preventing
the spectacle of bemedaled veterans sleeping in the street. Such men
are not necessarilly otherwise deserving, so the amount was /is just enough to
keep them in the flophouse.
Real awards (estates, cars, megabucks, CEO jobs) are given out by
society's elite classes to other eltie members - generals, senators, etc.

(eltie = elite,  conscince = conscience, necesarilly =necessarily)

IMHO, battlfield bravery is not the acme of character or a demonstration
of a society's achievements. The Third Reich and Imperial Japan had
no trouble having me perform  acts worthy of medals, but their societys
were oterwise intolerant, muderous, hateful, and sick.

(societys = societies,  muderous = murderous, oterwise=otherwise)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 08:45:46 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: NYC TV

'Morning, Ben...
        It may be a bit late to tell SMITHSONONIAN there were errors
in their "Tarawa" article.
        Maybe it's time for an article by you to them about what really
went on at Pelielu.
PS: Perhaps you would like to now check out the January 1993 issue of
SMITHSONIAN Magazine.  It has what seems to be a workmanlike overview,
        "WHEN THE MARINES WENT TO HAITI".
Might be worthwhile reading anyway, considering its timeliness --
Clinton's Commandoes all set to embark on his glorious crusade of freedom.
As you well know, the USMC landed in Haiti in 1915, and governed that unhappy
island for 19 years. Now, here's history repeating itself....
Let me know what you think of Frances MacLean's article on Marines
in Haiti.
Regards -- Sidney Allinson.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 08:49:01 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: DICTIONARY OF OPERATIO

Another useful little book along these lines is:
        MILSPEAK: A Dictionary Of Military Acronyms,
                by Andy Lightbody & Joe Poyer.
Publishd 19886, so might be hard to find in bookstores now.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 08:50:51 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: NYC TV

Odd, ben...
I'm sure I saw a TV programme about the Navaho Code-Talkers.
Blessed if I can recall what network, but am pretty sure it
was PBS.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 10:45:03 -0500
From:    Drew Halevy <[email-masked]>
Subject: CAF airshow

Can someone please repost the info on the airshow in Missouri on the
weekend of the 24th Sept. I think the location was Springfield, MO,
thanks-Drew

Drew Halevy
Department of History
University of Arkansas
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 10:17:55 -0500
From:    Drew Halevy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Len Deighton

I came across a book the other day that I ended up buying. It is called
_Blood, Tears and Folly_ by Len Deighton. I have read seven chapters so
far, and I like what I see. Has anyone else read this book? Any comments?
Thanks-Drew

Drew Halevy
Department of History
University of Arkansas
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 11:22:41 CDT
From:    Robert Hohlt <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Lou Coatney

Joe Barone,

Perhaps Lou has tried to mail to you directly and
the "Mailer Daemon" has rejected it.  I have tried
twice within the last 2 days to mail to you off line
and both times have stirred the wrath of the Mailer
Daemon god.

example:

421 Host ssd.ray.com not found for mailer ddn.
550 <[email-masked]>... Host unknown
550 Postmaster... User unknown

Robert Hohlt, Jr.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 12:33:37 EDT
From:    Brian Nicklas <[email-masked]>
Subject: Freeman Field

To Flog a horse (topic) thought down...
Freeman Field is a favorite of mine due to the use of the facility as the
Foreign Aircraft Evaluation Center of the Air Technical Service Command.
Due to crowding at Wright Field, Freeman was used to store and maintain
Foreign a/c for testing or static evaluation.  If flown, this was normally
done by Wright pilots/crews at Wright (1 hour away by air) or on site
at Freeman under Wright Field direction.  A lot of this work was later
done at Middletown Air Material Center/Area (MAMA).  As a result of this
work at Freeman in the summer of 1945, the Seymour residents could see
Spitfires, P-51s, Bf 109s and Zeros in the pattern for Freeman Field!
(Ahhh!)  At one point, the entry gate to Freeman was marked with a
Fw 190 wing, suitably inscribed, but still with balkenkreuse (sp).
As the field became to museum storage area, more American types were flown in,
and some Axis types were removed for further study by industry (Hortens to
Northrop, Flettner helicopters to Prewitt) or scrapped.  Then the museum
aircraft were shipped to Orchard Place, Park Ridge, IL (Now O'Hare IAP).
During the Korean fighting, the a/c were moved again, some to Wright Pat
for the USAF Museum, some to Suitland, MD for the Smithsonian, and some
again (sadly) scrapped.
I would love to go to Seymour and interview the locals, and just to browse
around the field.  I understand it is the local municipal airport.
Earlier in WWII, Freeman Field (then under 1st Air Force I think)
was the site of a "race riot"  involving troops from the 477th BG
and MPs who didn't care to show black officers respect.
(Can't find my Tuskeegee books, but hope my recollection isn't too
off the mark.  Segregation of the "O" clubs was the root.)
My main interest is flight testing, so that's why I like Freeman Field.

Brian Nicklas

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 12:43:50 EDT
From:    Patrick D Marsden <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP:(?)  Foo Fighters

This may or may not be the best forum for this topic
but it does sort of fall under the WWII umbrella.

"Foo Fighters" were phenomena reported over Europe
by Allied aircrews starting in early 1945.  Generally
they were discribed as fireballs and lights which
followed Allied aircraft and were capable of great
velocities.  The assumption was that they were some
sort of radio controlled tracking devices sent up
by the Germans.  Since then, they have been described
as UFO's and have fallen into the 'flying saucers'
catagory.

My question is:  From a WWII point of view, what were
these things?  Did the Germans really have radio
controlled fireballs which tracked allied bombers?
I've never seen anything remotely like this in the German
arsenal and as a aerospace engineer, I really doubt this
explaination.  Does anyone know where and under what
circumstances these stories started?  A good credible
reference or more details?

I don't mean to start a debate on the existance of UFO's
but I would like know if anyone has more information on this
particular phenomena.

patrick
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 12:42:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN: ROLE OF ALASKA IN WWII

  >  September 16, 1994
  >  Could someone give me a short lecture on the role of Alaska in WWII?
  >  According to Weinberg in his WORLD AT ARMS, its mail role was to provide a
  >base for ferrying planes to the Soviet Union.  The role of the Alaska Highway
  >was to provide fuel etc. to the bases used by these aircraft.
  >  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

 From an AAF view, on 7 Dec 41 Alaska had about 12 fighters (P-36s)
 and 12 bombers (B-18s).  It wasn't until the Japanese invaded Kiska
 and Attu that the US woke up to the defense of Alaska.  After these
 two island had been retaken by US and Canadian troops, several AAF
 units were withdrawn to other theaters.  For the rest of the war,
 from an AAF POV, (1) Alaska was used as the US terminus of the air
 route to ferry aircraft to the USSR and (2) the Aleutian Islands were
 used to mount small raids on Japanese installations in the Kurile
 Islands.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 12:46:03 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: ROLE OF ALASKA IN WWII

On Fri, 16 Sep 1994 23:04:50 +0200 JOHN AUSLAND said:
>  Could someone give me a short lecture on the role of Alaska in WWII?
>  According to Weinberg in his WORLD AT ARMS, its mail role was to provide a
>base for ferrying planes to the Soviet Union.  The role of the Alaska Highway
>was to provide fuel etc. to the bases used by these aircraft.
>  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

I thought the original impetus for the highway was to make it possible to
defend Alaska in the first place against a hypothetical Japanese invasion?

ken koester
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 09:42:39 -0800
From:    Yarbrough James L <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: PELELIU

I believe the local rag would ask the question of *where??*

Jim

[email-masked]

New rules adopted by the agency require me to state that all my opinions are
mine, not that anybody else would want them, and not to hold the State of
Oregon or anybody else responsible.
_______________________________________________________________________________
50 years ago today, young American warriors of the 1st Marine Division stormed
the shores of Peleliu opening what was to become one of the bloodiest battles
in the Pacific. We, of those who survived, are grateful that we made it and we
constantly remember those of our buddies who didn't and will always remain
young in our memories. By the way, The Washington Post didn't see fit to
commemorate this day with even a two-liner. Did the newspapers in the cities of
the members on the list also forget/neglect to commemorate this day? Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 09:57:00 PDT
From:    Julie Jenkins <[email-masked]>
Subject: Lou & Uncle Joe

Carramba!!! Flamed & don't even know it!  If I got the first message, it's news
to me.  Either I was carried away w/the delete key & axed it w/out knowing or
it was lost in the ether.  All I got were the subsequent pleas for gentillesse.

I knew I was cruising for a bruising when I sent the first message which
stemmed from having seen an unpublished Ph.D of 2-3 years ago that is, so far,
the only one out of this school based on archive documents in Kiev & Moscow w/
a postscript begging for further access.  The thrust of the diss was the accomo
dation that was achieved between peasants and Stalin by say '38/39.  It goes
into detail on how that accomodation was achieved, at what cost but also how
Stalin did have to negotiate w/the living.  Not in terms of sitting at a table
& talking but taking actions that were responses to peasant action or nonaction
Collectivization, the introduction of tractors & simultaneous slaughtering of
horses to force people to use tractors = tremendous drop in production = lack
of food for cities.  Won't buy food so horrific food collecting to feed cities
leaves producers on land starving.   This is not the same as malice aforethough
t I am going to starve you into submission.  This is monstrous indifference to
consequences of original plan--collectivize & mechanize.  By end of decade the
sides are in the standoff that was maintained til '89.  If I remember correctly
.

And another thing.  I tried once to send a message but did it wrong & I still
want people's opinions.  In all that exchange about Russians in the East & why
were they so out of control, no one mentioned that the 2 bigtime correspondents
for Red Star, who had their stuff translated almost as soon as it was written,
were both Jewish--Grossman & Ehrenburg.  They collaborated on the Russian histo
ry of what was uncovered by the advancing Red Army & published the Black Book,
the English of which is missing inmy library--has anyone ever seen this?  Maybe
people conflate the Red Army hurricane & the discovery of the Holocaust because
the reports were written by 2 men who by then were ready to kill every German
on sight for Russia and for Jews?  I've seen the little pamphlet that Grossman
wrote about the Eastern Front that came out IN ENGLISH in 1945--he was just
about out of his head in despair & anger.  And he's not like that.  His big
book lets everybody just be themselves--and you decide.  And in the 60s he was
writing that the Red Army soldier was fighting for freedom.  That they were con
vinced that after the war, things couldn't be the way there were before.  It
just couldn't be.  I would trust Grossman, he's a very inteligent guy, I dojn't
think he was convincing himself 20 years after the fact.  But what do other
people think?  (You know, Solzh--- was saying just about the same thing in the
infamous letter that got him in jail--after the war it's all going to be differ
ent.  No one really believed how essentially indifferent Stalin was.  So why
did Shostakovich last? & Eisentstein?  Quien sabe.)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 06:51:45 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: NYC TV

Ben,

>I have read that Smithsonian article and found that it had some errors. Ben
>Frank

Could you tell us more?

John Riegsecker                                 (206) 756-3566
Dept of Math and Computer Science               [email-masked]
University of Puget Sound

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 12:35:35 -0500
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Peleliu

Ben:
The South Bend Tribune (IN) ran a copy of the story that was on the list
several days ago (i.e., the one in which you were quoted).  I have to
admit I was completely unaware of the operation until I read about it
here.
BTW, I just looked at our copy of FORTITUDINE (how in the world do you
pronounce that?), for Spring 1994.  Good issue, as usual.
Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 14:14:48 -0500
From:    Mike Oaks <[email-masked]>
Subject: Fw: ADMIN: Announcement

 -----------------------------
From: Barone <[email-masked]>
Fri, 16 Sep 1994 10:32:19 -0400
To: Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <[email-masked]>
Subject: ADMIN: Announcement

>From the keyboard of Joe Barone comes...

        While I rarely, if ever, announce the removal of a member from
the list, I feel that this case warrants an exception...

snip snip snip

   After 24 hours of waiting for a response and receiving none, I removed
him from the list...

snip snip snip

Joe,
   I understand what you had to do was hard  b u t  it was just. I've been
called down a couple of times myself, but it was best for the group, well...
    Mr Coatney drove me off the VWAR-L list with all his derogatory remarks
and flame wars.  It got to the point that when I signed on to VWAR-L I would
automatically erase his messages and all responses to same. It finally got
so bad I signed off the listserv. There are two sides to every story but...

   Life goes on and this listserv will to...
 ___________________________________________________________________
|                                                                   |
|    Michael A. Oaks                 Music: A way to mark times     |
|    Kennesaw State College                 stepping stones through |
|    [email-masked]             your calendar of life.  |
|    Tel: (404) 423-6049  Fax (404) 423-6541   ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~  MAO |
|___________________________________________________________________|

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 19:32:53 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Fw: ADMIN: Announcement

Ladies and Gentlemen!

May I make a plea that we don't get into a public discussion about Joe's
actions regarding Lou. Let us let the list owner get on with his
(demanding) job unhindered and let us the "punters"
concentrate on discussing what we like discussing, (that is WWII. :-))

I believe we all have confidence in Joe's fairness and judgement.

over and out on this one

Steve Baldwin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 14:10:12 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: Announcement

Hello, Joe!

While it is unfortunate that this has happened, you did the right
thing. Thank you for taking a leadership role to preserve the
integrity of this list. Hats off to you!!

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 12:17:47 -0700
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: Peleliu and Morotai

>From what I read and understand there were basically two separate thrusts
taking place in the Pacific War. MacArthur and Nimitz basically each had
their own groups doing their own things. Question - was the Peleliu
invasion under MacArthur or Nimitz. I guess I had been assuming it was
Nimitz because of the Marines being the invasion force; but I'm not sure
now that I think about it. I thought the Nimitz attack forces (Mitscher)
were further north.

If it was MacArthur how often did he use the Marines? The reason I'm
asking is because it would appear that at the very same time that the
Marines are having a very difficult time on Peleliu, the Army was
basically have a very easy time of it on Morotai. MacArthur basically
used 28,000 men to defeat a few hundred Japanese. Why wasn't the big
surplus used on Peleliu?

------------
John Davis    [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 14:23:36 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 50TH: PACIFIC ANNIVERSARIES

Hello, Steve!

> If Ben Frank was at Peleleiu, than my hat is off (again) to one of our
> best.

    Absolutely!!

> Strange thing is that I know very little about it.

    The Pelelieu Campaign is one of the forgotten or overlooked
episodes in the history of WWII. That is most unfortunate, as, has
been cited here many times, the fighting was fierce.

> Strange thing is that dad refuses to discuss the subject further tho he loves
> watching WW-II movies, as well as Jack McK's daily postings I bring him at
> times.

    It must have been awful, but your father's reaction is typical of
many who saw and experienced so much horror.

    > The guy who used to live across the
street, Al Shutt was there too. He only
> talked about his experiences when extremely drunk, and even then not much.
> Seemed to mention a little bag every Japaneese soldier carried filled with
> some sort of opiate.

    This is all testimony to the horrific fighting that took place
there.

 > It's guys like you that we all owe so much to. Thanx

    Amen to that.

> I often wonder why we don't knwo more about the Pacific theatre.

    For one thing, the names of these places sound so strange to
American ears, and it is difficult for the average American to
relate to things really sounding foreign. A
terrible lack of geographical knowledge of our planet, and finally,
there is no emotional attachment to these strange-sounding places
where loved ones were not involved. A terrible combination in itself
but combined with a lack of historical sensitivity on the part of
educators these days in the public schools, particularly where
teachers themselves don't know very much about this particular area
of American involvement in WWII, you can understand why the Pacific
Theater is often, and tragically, overlooked.

Just my opinion, of course, but you asked.

   Thank you, Steve.

   Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 14:30:49 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: V-1, Hs 293, and other...

Hello, Ron!

This may or may not have been answered. If so, then please overlook
this.

> Emmanuel, if anyone can help with this, I'm sure you can: Several years ago
> I saw a television program concerning the WWII German missile program. I
> recall an interview with a diminutive female test pilot who actually *flew*
> V-1 prototypes during their development.

    Wings of the Luftwaffe, an Australian documentary series
consisting of 13 episodes dealt in some detail with this. There have
also been other documentaries dealing with this subject, the best
known to me was a segment produced by CBS in the 1950's and '60's
called "The Twentieth Century".

    Hanna Reitsch was the name of the female test pilot. She was the
German Amelia Earhart. Miss Reitsch was a truly amazing woman, and
many of her exploits may be taken or interpreted as an attempt by a
single woman to prove herself in a man's world or in a profession
dominated by men. This led her to perform some extraordinary feats of
flying.

 > I'm likely running the risk of being hooted right off the list
by > mentioning this, so please substantiate if you can. :-)

    Hope the above helps.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 15:53:52 CCS
From:    Jorge Merino <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: Vintage ships and scrap values

This note arrived to the AIRCRAFT list, and lists the prices payed for
some interesting ships for scrapping, so, I'm forwadring it.

Jorge Merino

Forwarded note follows...........

=========================================================================
From:         DRAGONETTES <[email-masked]>
Subject:      Re: Bad news: Vintage aircraft carriers last trip

According to the May 1994 USNI Proceedings, Hornet sold to Astoria Metal Corp.,
Portland, OR, for $200K for scrapping on 14 Apr 1993.

Coral Sea, 30 May 1993, to N.R. Vessel Corp, NYC, NY(with further subcontractor)
for $748,999 for scrapping.

For related prices:

Newport News (8 inch gun cruiser), $58888 for scrapping.

Prairie, destroyer tender, extremely old, for $960000 for scrapping in India.

Colonial, LSD-18, $353,725 for scrapping in Shanghai, China.

Norwalk, AK-279, for $316,801 for scrapping in India or a friendly country.

I'll have to go back another year or so (another time) for other details.

As far as why the differences in cost for metal? It's not only metal, but parts.
But it is not economical for us to remove the parts and machinery deep inside
the ship for we have laws about abestos. I'm sure there are other reasons
as well, but when you are trying to make money off of scrap, it comes down
to what the buyer is willing to pay.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 15:54:00 EDT
From:    Cassady Craft <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Peleliu and Morotai

John Davis has raised an interesting point.  The Peleliu operation _was_
under MacArthur, wasn't it?  It was taken in order to provide cover for
his right flank when invading the Philippines, right?  Huh!  MacArthur was
alot like Hitler in that his career as a military strategist spans severe
peaks and canyons (sorry for the vulgar comparison!).  In the Philippines,
I think he was wrong both times.  First, he couldn't hold the beaches--and
ended up not even moving his supplies out of Manila and onto Bataan in time.
People always remember the starving of the brave men of the New Mexico National
Guard, 4th Marines and others, but don't realize that it was a colossal
blunder on the part of the commanding general (Mac) that there weren't more
supplies.  He abandoned Manila and either allowed lots of stores to be
captured or burned them before the Japanese got there.  Then he "escaped"
to Australia, set up his kingdom there and was "forced" to watch his men
surrender or die (I'm not accusing him of hard heartedness, but others
certainly took the harder road when faced with the choice of leaving or
staying with their command).

In New Guinea, Mac was OK (although Kenney in his post-war autobio takes
lots of the credit for the vertical envelopment ideas and hacking out forward
air bases/supply by air).  But when we get back to the Philippines, Mac again
was below par.  Peleliu is only one aspect of this strategic failure that
resulted from having multiple supreme commanders in the Pacific (this is firm,
even if it were Nimitz' baby).  By mid to late 1944, it was no longer
necessary to "return" to the Philippines in a military sense, in fact it was
a disaster.  The Japanese could not supply the place as it was.  The subs
and airpower had really cut them off.  Certainly the main island were not
necessary to land on and die for.  The worst is that even after Leyte had
fallen, MacArthur went ahead and started on the southern islands.  I believe
either _Eagle Against the Sun_ or some other work gives the figures, but I
seem to remember something like 200K casualties from the Philippines campaign.
Not entirely necessary, especially if Okinawa was "on the list" for occupation.
Suffice it to say, these men should have been hoarded for the upcoming
invasion of Japan, should it become necessary--not wasted for a purely
political (or should I say egotistical) cause.

I will stop here and remind myself that war is supposed to be politics by
another means.  I wonder if we have forgotten the implications of that by
now.

Cassady Craft
Department of Political Science
University of Georgia
e-mail [email-masked]
or
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 16:18:14 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Peleliu and Morotai

Cassady raises some interesting issues inre: MAcArthur.

I have only one point (A rerity for me):

In wartime, things are not done from a purely military standpoint, nor from
egotistical standpoints. Somethings must be done that in hindsight seem
superflous. We did derive benifits from retaking the Phillipines that
cannot be measured in tactical or even strategic terms.

                                                                Steve
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - [email-masked] |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 15:17:41 CDT
From:    Robert Hohlt <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: very negative waves Moriarty.

Sorry guys:

Joe and I are testing his address and I still can't get any mail to him at
[email-masked].

Date: Fri, 16 Sep 94 15:12:10 CDT
From: Mailer-Daemon (Mail Delivery Subsystem)
Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown
To: <rhohlt>

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
421 Host ssd.ray.com not found for mailer ddn.
550 <[email-masked]>... Host unknown

   ----- Unsent message follows -----
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 94 15:12:10 CDT
From: rhohlt (Robert Hohlt)
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Lou Coatney

This is the reply to your test...

Robert Hohlt, Jr.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 13:36:26 -0700
From:    Jim Curry <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Navajo Code Talkers

American Indians were subject to the draft in World War II (and in World
War I also) Those tribes not already granted American citizenship got
it  in the early 1920's,with the obligations as well as the privileges
attached.  They served together with whites in integrated units (unlike
African-Americans, also subject to the draft.).  Given the warrior traditions
of many Indian peoples and the lack of education of most, they served
disproportionetly in infantry units.  The 45th Division (Oklahoma National
Guard) which fought in Italy,France, and Germany, had  many Indians in its
ranks. Ira Hayes,one of the Marines who raised the flag on Mount Suribachi,
was a full-blooded Pima Indian.  Joe Medicine Crow, a distinguished historian
of the Crow people in Montana, was a war hero.  He kept up the old traditions
by capturing a horse from the Germans!
Jim Curry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 16:01:02 -0500
From:    Joe Pohlmann <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Wargames and Academia

Lou,

        Reading all of you posts, I seem to remember something about naval
warfare rules that you created.  How would I go about getting something like
this?  A list of other wargames would be GREATLY appreciated also, but since
I have more experience in Naval wargames, that would be my first emphasis.

Thanks in advance,

Joe Pohlmann
Systems Engineer
([email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 14:25:14 -0700
From:    Jim Curry <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Len Deighton

I read  _Blood, Tears,and Folly_ back around Christmastime, and enjoyed
it a lot.  The cover title is misleading; the book stops in 1942. Possibly
Deighton is writing a second volume or a sequel.  Deighton is very good
on technical detail, and very irreverent about the quality of British
military leadership.
Actually, Deighton has been active as a military historian for years.
His earlier books on the Blitzkrieg and the Battle off Britain are
back in print in paperback, I notice.
Deighton fans might also keep an eye out for his straight war novels
_Bomber_ and _Goodbye Mickey Mouse_. I like them more than his spy thrillers.
Jim Curry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 14:42:11 -0700
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Peleliu and Morotai

>
> John Davis has raised an interesting point.  The Peleliu operation _was_
> under MacArthur, wasn't it?  It was taken in order to provide cover for
> his right flank when invading the Philippines, right?  Huh!  MacArthur was
> alot like Hitler in that his career as a military strategist spans severe

I thought this was the case. Now then the question is would additional
forces on Peleliu have helped any? Was the problem not enough forces or a
very determined Japanese defensive garrison dug into defensive positions
that were very difficult to attack. From what I've read for my 50 YA
column the Japanese garrison was some of the better Japanese troops.
Still with the number of troops MacArthur used on the Morotai milk run you
would have thought some could have been used on Peleliu. Maybe he was
saving them for the Phillipines proper?

------------
John Davis    [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 20:58:15 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: PELELIU

Thanks for the posting Alan. Yes, I know George McMillan's "The Old Breed: and
I knew George very well, also. As a matter of fact, I was standing at the
railing of our troop transport at Guadalcanal when George and a couple of other
combat correspondents came on board. "The Old Breed" is considered to be one of
the finest unit histories to come out of WWII, and it is also very rare. 1st
MarDiv WWII veterans were all sent a copy. It was paid for out of the
division's PX fund which had accumulated quite a large profit after operating
during wartime for more than four years. Also, it may be a coincidence, the Jim
Wilbur who signed to book to his son may very well be a Jim Wilbur who was in
my outfit. The 50-gallon drums being rolled through the water to shore were
filled with water. It was known that there would be little water on Peleliu, so
some dumbhead at division headquarters figured that gasoline or diesel oil
drums could be steamed thoroughly enough to allow water to be put in them and
sent through the surf to the shore. The water in them was foul, and many
Marines became deathly ill from drinking it. Peleliu was hellishly hot and we
needed water. It was a godsend that the captains of vessels in the invasion
fleet heard about this and immediately sent cases of juices and fruits and
somesuch ashore. The troops were very grateful. I landed with the advance
division headquarters CP group, and I don't recall offhand which beach that
was. Gen Vandegrift was a true Virginia gentleman in the best sense of the
term. He was a fine Marine and much admired and respected. I got to know him
after the war and after he retired. I interviewed many general officers, who as
field grade and senior officers served with him, and they all spoke admiringly
of him. Even to his old friends and comrades in arms, he always was Gen
Vandegrift. That respect remains to this day. Incidentally, for your
information, I am writing his biography for a book of biographies of the
Commandants of the Marine Corps which Allan Millett is editing and which the
Naval Institute is publishing. I've nattered on long enough, and so I'll close. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 17:07:59 EDT
From:    S214000 <[email-masked]>
Subject: Merrill's Marauders

Hello everyone!,
I have a question that I hope the list can answer. I'm working with the
Marquette Historical Society on their World War II display, both in
general and the Marquette area in particular. Anyway, we had a gentleman
come in for an oral interview about his experiences airlifting supplies
to Merrills Maraudars(sp?)in the CBI. During our talk he mentioned
meeting a gentleman, who lives here in Marquette, who was on the
receiving end of the airlifts, but couldn't remember his name. Therefore
is there a list of personnel who served with Merrills Maraudar(sp?). Is
there a reunion group I can contact for a listing?
Also, I just wanted to let you all know that I just finished interviewin
Capt. Dave McClintock, of Leyte Gulf fame, for a paper to be published
next year on his wartime experiences.
Thanks.
Mike Wilson<[email-masked]>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 20:40:26 -0500
From:    "Danny G. Cox" <[email-masked]>
Subject: CAF Airshow Repost

For Drew H. and anyone else who might want this imfo.  I'm reposting my
message of the 14th.
                    _____________________________

If any of you are going to be in the Springfield, MO area the weekend of
Sept. 24-25 the Ozark Mountain Squadron of the Confederate Air Force is
having an air show at the Springfield Regional Airport (more like an
airplane viewing show no mock battles etc).

According to their advertising, I'm not a member of the CAF, at least one
each of the  following is to be there.  An F4U-Corsair, P-51 Mustang,
Japanese Zero (Replica), B-24 Liberator the "Diamond Lil", B-29 the "Fifi".
A C-45, C-46, C-47, T-6 PT-19 Kaydet, A.M.M.O. Cobra Gunship, and a SOKO
Galeb, an Eastern Euorpe jet trainer, fighter.

Also to be on hand is Travis Hoover (I think thats the right name) who
was a pilot on the Doolittle Raid.

Hoping everyone had a good one today.

+==================================+
|   Dan Cox                        |
|   REPUBLIC, MO                   |
|   [email-masked]   |
+==================================+

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 21:38:34 -0500
From:    Dick Kimberly <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 50TH: LETTER HOME FROM BELGIUM (fwd)

I am forwarding this material in the hopes it may have some value

Dick

 Dick Kimberly
Metropolitan Community Colleges
Kansas City, MO  64111

                                         Dick Kimberly
                                         Home: (816) 246 4544
                                         Office: (816) 437 3261
                                         Metropolitan Community Colleges
                                         Kansas City, MO

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 11:41:25 -0500 (CDT)
From: Dick Kimberly <[email-masked]>
To: JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: 50TH: LETTER HOME FROM BELGIUM

John,

Best I can, as I was there in late May of this year.

First of all, the estate is now a cloistered convent.  I got as far as
the driveway!  Across the road is an implement company ( I think) and I
have a nice picture of my father sitting on a destroyed German tank with
the steeple of the church in Butgenbach in the background.  We took the
same picture this summer, sans tank, but with the same steeple.  John, I
love this stuff.

This is a big part of my father's life.  I call it the "defining moment"
without a hesitation.

He was a company commander of the 55th Truckhead (Class I & III) in
Butgenbach.  As the 99th retired to Elsenborn Ridge, and before the 1st
came in, he was all that was between the Germans (Peiper's column) and
Elsenborn.  The German's never came in, having veared west at Bullingen.
Too bad: as the Americans had abandoned 500,000 gallong of gas in 5 gal
units.  This was another unit's stuff, but my father got it out.  I think
he got the bronze star without seeing an armed German.  He operated out
of the parking lot surrounding the church in Butgenbach.  It was a
hardstand, at a time that the 99th and the 1st drove the Butgenbach road
down about three feet.

Earlier, he had come across Easy Red on D+3.  I think he got through the
war without firing a shot in anger.  As I mentioned earlier, we retraced
his route (and Pieper's) in some depth this summer.  For me it put a face
on all of those stories I have heard for fifty years.  I don't think he
goes three hours without  talking about these ten or so days in his
life.

Dick Kimberly
Metropolitan Community Colleges
Kansas City, MO  64111

                                         Dick Kimberly
                                         Home: (816) 246 4544
                                         Office: (816) 437 3261
                                         Metropolitan Community Colleges
                                         Kansas City, MO

On Fri, 16 Sep 1994, JOHN AUSLAND wrote:

> Reply to your message of Friday September 16, 1994 13:48 +0200
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>   Your father was on the north wing of the German offensive, while I was on the
> south, in Luxembourg.  I find in Danny Parker's book BATTLE OF THE BULGE a
> picture of the 26th Infantry of the 1st moving into position to defend Dom
> Butgenbach, a large estate.
>   Tell me a bit about your father's role in this.
>   Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 21:41:06 -0500
From:    Dick Kimberly <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 50TH: LETTER HOME FROM BELGIUM (fwd)

More of the same.  Any interest

Dick

 Dick Kimberly
Metropolitan Community Colleges
Kansas City, MO  64111

                                         Dick Kimberly
                                         Home: (816) 246 4544
                                         Office: (816) 437 3261
                                         Metropolitan Community Colleges
                                         Kansas City, MO

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 19:13:09 -0500 (CDT)
From: Dick Kimberly <[email-masked]>
To: JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: 50TH: LETTER HOME FROM BELGIUM

John,

Thanks for the reading suggestion.  I am mostly reading and rereading
"Company Commander" and "Time for Trumpets" by Charles MacDonald and will
eventually get into his regimental histories - my dad has them all.  Mac
wrote for the army after the war, but the two histories are his.  The
former is his experiences in the 2d Division east of Butgenbach in the
woods between the In ternational Highway and Rocherath.  I'm sure you
know all of this.

In "Trumpets" he cites Will Cavanaugh who I met.  Will is about 42 years
old and has made the Bulge his life's work.  I have his "Battle for the
Twin Villages" in defense of the Elsenborn Ridge and he is coming out
with a 99th Division history this fall.  He models his style after
MacDonald which is fine by me.

It is really new to me to realize how much roads mean in all of this.

You, incidentally, have been a breath of fresh air to me.  I am one of a
diminishing number who really care about this area of geography and history.
I am a convert from the Pacific theater, but still enjoy this list as it
fights on that front.

Once I get a better feel for things and some confidence in the face of
some very knowledgeable souls, I will post my notes of this summer.  I
can edit them into sequence and cut out some of the family stuff.  For
someone interested in oral history, of the micro sort, it is a good
read.  Actually some of these readers can correct my errors and round out
my stories.

I will even not mention my father's lack of enthusiasm for WHAT'S HIS
NAME in the Third Army and his somewhat strong lack of enthusiasm for
Monty.  I"m too young to die!

I read your stuff, both off and on-list, with great appreciation and
enjoyment.

Dick

 Dick Kimberly
Metropolitan Community Colleges
Kansas City, MO  64111

                                         Dick Kimberly
                                         Home: (816) 246 4544
                                         Office: (816) 437 3261
                                         Metropolitan Community Colleges
                                         Kansas City, MO

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 21:42:23 -0500
From:    Dick Kimberly <[email-masked]>
Subject: Butgenbach and Peiper (fwd)

And more.

Dick

 Dick Kimberly
Metropolitan Community Colleges
Kansas City, MO  64111

                                         Dick Kimberly
                                         Home: (816) 246 4544
                                         Office: (816) 437 3261
                                         Metropolitan Community Colleges
                                         Kansas City, MO

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 19:25:02 -0500 (CDT)
From: Dick Kimberly <[email-masked]>
To: JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Butgenbach and Peiper

John,

What para operation?  I am assuming the activity at Dom Butgenbach was a
recon of some sort.  The main force did not make it up that far.  I have
my father's company journal for the 17th I think where he writes that
three tanks are 20 minutes from town.  Remember, he is loading gasoline
like crazy at this point with one Machine Gun and preparations to blow
the rest if someone comes into his area.

Just south of Butgenbach is a field where someone, I think engineers from
the 99th, blew the tanks.  This is in Butgenbach, not the DOM.  I think
they got it with anti air guns trained to road level.

I know Butgenbach pretty well, far better than my father who spent three
months there.  I ran the area, including the Lake and the Dam to the
north of it.  My father never knew the lake existed, and it was 1/2 miles
away!  And remember, as an officer he had a map!  I was surprised to meet
many - catch the word, many - enlisted men who only knew they were in
Belgium.  Once you start finding the units, some of their puzzle slips
away.  This Will Cavanaugh I mentioned makes a living taking them back to
their foxhole! He is a good find .

I better let you go

Dick

 Dick Kimberly
Metropolitan Community Colleges
Kansas City, MO  64111

                                         Dick Kimberly
                                         Home: (816) 246 4544
                                         Office: (816) 437 3261
                                         Metropolitan Community Colleges
                                         Kansas City, MO

On Sat, 17 Sep 1994, JOHN AUSLAND wrote:

> Reply to your message of Saturday September 17, 1994 01:41 +0200
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>   Extremely interesting.  Suggest you post it on the list.  The Peiper operation
> was an interesting one.  Danny Parker has a good account of it, along with an
> account of that weird para operation, in his BATTLE OF THE BULGE.
>   Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 21:43:53 -0500
From:    Dick Kimberly <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Butgenbach and Peiper (fwd)

More.

Dick

 Dick Kimberly
Metropolitan Community Colleges
Kansas City, MO  64111

                                         Dick Kimberly
                                         Home: (816) 246 4544
                                         Office: (816) 437 3261
                                         Metropolitan Community Colleges
                                         Kansas City, MO

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 1994 21:27:19 -0500 (CDT)
From: Dick Kimberly <[email-masked]>
To: JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Butgenbach and Peiper

John,

In some of my off-list notes to you, you suggested that I put some of it
on the list.  Thus the question.  Would anyone be interested in the daily
journal of a QM supply company in Butgenbach at the start of and during the
breakout?

This is the north shoulder near Elsenborn and is primary material.   It
is 8 pages long and covers the movement back to Malmedy, Francorchamps,
Spa, etc.  I would have to retype it,or scan it somehow.

I also have my personal observations from May-June, 1994 as my father & I
retraced his route and Peiper's, too.  It is really a good read, but oral
history at its most micro level.  Anyone wanting this can have it for the
small cost of telling me how to get WordPerfect into Pine.

I toured the battle area with Will Cavanaugh, a 99th Div & Bulge
historian who added all the bells & whistles.  It should be accurate and
could be better with gentle input.

My gut reaction is that this sort of thing is too good not to share.

Dick

 Dick Kimberly
Metropolitan Community Colleges
Kansas City, MO  64111

                                         Dick Kimberly
                                         Home: (816) 246 4544
                                         Office: (816) 437 3261
                                         Metropolitan Community Colleges
                                         Kansas City, MO

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 22:54:50 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: ADMIN: ANNOUNCEMENT

Well done, Joe. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 22:54:55 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: NYC TV

I will have to get a copy of the article to refresh my memory. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 22:54:59 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: PELELIU AND MOROTA

 Cassady, the Peleliu operation was in the CinCPac/CinCPOA area headed by
Nimitz, and the III Amphibious Corps,commanded by MajGen Roy S. Geiger, was in
charge of the Peleliu operation. MacArthur had nothing to do with it. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 22:55:02 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: NAVAJO CODE TALKERS

Indians were not exempt from the draft, and not all Navajos went into the
Marine Corps. Those who did and became code talkers were volunteers. We don't
know the exact number of Navajo code talkers in WWII, but we think that there
were close to 450. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 22:55:05 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: PELELIU

Thanks for the info, Tim, and I am pleased that you like Fortitudine.
It was the motto which appeared on the cap plates of Marines about the time of
the war of 1812 or later. I won't be held to this, as I am not a materiel
historian. Fortitudine is pronounced as: 42dineigh. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 22:57:00 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: $'S FOR HEROISM (W

Thanks for the message, Ron. You are absolutely right about not knowing where
the next hero will come from. It is a given that the bravest leader in battle
is often a very poor garrison soldier. I have been privileged to have known
severl Medal of Honor and Navy Cross awardees. They have not let their award go
to their heads, they are like you and me except for that one transcedent moment
when their heroism broke through. They also wear their awards proudly in a
subdued fashion. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 22:57:04 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: PELELIU AND MOROTAI

The rationale for the Peleliu operation was to protect MacArthur's
right/eastern flank when he went back to the Philippines. Earlier, before the
Peleliu operation, or while the ships were on the way, Halsey messaged Nimitz,
and I believe the Joint Chiefs who were meeting with the Brits in Canada, that
he had good reason to believe that the Japanese were weaker in the Philippines
than previously believed. Nimitz refused to cancel the operation because it was
already underway. The Marine fought under MacArthur and Krueger's Sisth Army in
the Cape Gloucester operation which began on New Britain on 26 December 1943.
Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 22:59:11 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 50TH: PACIFIC ANNI

Jack, your last posting reminds me of the George Medal that was devised after
Guadalcanal by a dear friend of mine, now departed, who was an excellent
commercial artist. He designed a medal, on the obverse was a cow dropping her
flop and a fan blowing it all over; the reverse was an obvious Navy admirals
arm and hand dropping a hot potato, and the motto on it was "Let George Do It."
The ribbon holding the medal was the fabric of the Marines' herringbone twill
dungarees. The medals were made in Australia, I forget how many, but they are
now collectibles. They are very rare. We have a number in the Marine Corps
Museum collection. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 16 Sep 1994 21:26:46 PDT
From:    Jim Brady <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MEDIA - 50TH: PACIFIC ANNIVERS

---------------Original Message---------------
DELETED MATERIAL ABOUT NON-COMMERATIVE EVENTS IN THE PACIFIC

 >    Yeah, but that is our media for you. It really makes one wonder,
 >especially after the very few remarks made about the career of
 >General Doolittle when he passed away last year. That should tell you
 >something of the media in this country.

Terry,

I am not a media lover and am constantly calling and e-mailing them
with my comments.  However, the media is a bunch of people that
were educated in this country so perhaps we should go back to the
root cause of all this, our education system and perhaps our value
system.  SAT scores are falling (so we change the grading scheme)

deletions

 >    Terry

Ditto your last paragraph.

Jack McKillop

----------End of Original Message----------

Fellows,
          I sheepishly raise my hand as a guilty member thereof (media, that
is). Before anybody starts throwing things at me, may I point out a couple of
things?

   First, yes, I am like many, a victim of ignorance, but I'm trying to learn
all I can. I've learned a  *great* deal right here. Give ya a for-instance:
When Erich Hartmann died last winter, someone here posted his obit as
appeared in the London Daily Telegraph. Fascinating piece about his mother
the glider pilot, escaping the Russians, shooting down Mustangs, everything.
I immediately told our National desk to be on the lookout for the story. The
story never showed. We finally called Associated Press in New York. Nope,
they never moved any story about any German ace or any Hartmann guy. I
hollered, jumped up and down and told them about the Telegraph story. They
called back. They were sending the story AND a photo of him in a cockpit of a
109. Turns out that an editor in New York who earlier had scanned the London
feed simply dismissed the Hartmann obit as an obscurity uninteresting to
anyone in the entire United States. Bottom line: because of the WWII-L and no
other reason, papers across the United States DID carry the obit of the
winningest fighter ace who ever lived and is ever likely to live.

  Second, that is the exception. Usually, we blow it. A couple factors run
against us. For one, most editors have a low threshold for anniversary
stories because there are so many. They go for big events in a big way, but
want to be done quickly. We have won a few more -- a lot more -- this year
because of the 50th, but, and I'm sorry for the pun, you have to pick your
battles. They do get burned out on a line of stories, and they start tuning
you out when you pitch them if you pitch too many. They are receptive when we
can prepare a good story -- that means finding a local vet involved in the
episode, giving the writer enough time to read a little. I know: I can open
up an almanac. But the best story possibilities aren't necessarily the
biggest battles. Joe Kennedy would have been a great anniversary piece -- I
thought so when reading the comment here that we might have lost a President
in operation Aphrodite. But I read that on the day of the anniversary. The
first V-1 attack would have been a good "time-peg" as they call it to relive
the seige of London. Again, it came up before I could think of a worthy
approach.

  On the positive side, we do have some special-focus WWII articles
developing, and more are expected, in addition to major stories about major
events. Plus, I'm always open for ideas and tips

  Sorry for all the wind.

  Jim Brady / Fort Worth Star-Telegram (Texas)

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 15 Sep 1994 to 16 Sep 1994
*************************************************