Subject: WWII-L Digest - 11 Sep 1994 to 12 Sep 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 1994 00:00:32 -0400

There are 62 messages totalling 2053 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Buzz Bombs (6)
  2. FREE FRENCH FORCES
  3. Seaplane Spitfire not all that bad
  4. INF: USN Chronology 09-12-94
  5. Preserving Ships
  6. Japanese sailors (2)
  7. 50TH: ENTRY INTO GERMANY (2)
  8. SOURCE: Jane's Fighting...WW2
  9. Buzz bombs
 10. Name of operation (2)
 11. Preserved Naval Vessels
 12. Rommel (3)
 13. 11 Sept 1944 incident
 14. 50TH:  Operation Market Garden (2)
 15. INF: 50 Years Ago - 13-SEP-1944
 16. Mr. Coatney's comments on Eisenhower (3)
 17. WEAP Re: Post Washington Treaty U.S. BBs
 18. Alabama and Drum
 19. WEAP: USS Bon Homme Richard (2)
 20. *Other* Holocausts, Mr. Weber (2)
 21. WEAP: Essex-class carriers (2)
 22. Re[2]: Preserved World War II ships book
 23. BUZZ BOMBS (2)
 24. Another Hornet (CV-12) note
 25. "Holocaust" to be defined narrowly or inclusively?
 26. SHOOTING DOWN BUZZ BOMBS
 27. ROMMEL and/or "The Grief"
 28. Female Nazis
 29. "Holocaust" (2)
 30. THANKS (2)
 31. Hist: Use of term "Holocaust" (3)
 32. HIST: Female Nazis (2)
 33. Preserving (parts of) Ships
 34. WEAP: V-1 Movie
 35. Mr. Coatney's co... (2)
 36. [INF] USAAF 13 SEP 44
 37. [INF] USAAF 13 Sep 44
 38. Hist: Use of term "Holocaust":  Poles *not* "primary victims"?
 39. Point of information on the Warsaw Ghetto for David Rising

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 11 Sep 1994 23:54:54 -0500
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Buzz Bombs

In message World War II Discussion List writes:
> Today my father-in-law was telling me about his "buzz bomb" experiences in
> London during the war. Several questions arose such as what did they sound
> like, what kind of engines did they have, their explosive power, etc. I
> would appreciate any information regarding the above questions. Thanks.

Making use of the media options might be the best answers.  There was a
very good movie made many years ago about the development of the buzz bomb.
It drives me nuts, because EVERY time I try to think of the name, I completely
forget it (just like now!)

I know someone will fill in this blank very shortly.

Basically, the buzz bomb (V-1) had a very unique (and recognizable) sound.
The movie does a good job with it and has a lot of footage (of the USN's
Loon, mostly, but they are almost identical clones).

BTW: The CAF museum in Midland, TX has a Loon engine on display.

In any case, I believe the warhead was in the "area" of 500 pounds of
explosives.  For a sustained attack against a city, it serves no real
tactical purpose, but it was a superb terror weapon, since you never
knew where it was going to fall.  Totally indiscriminate like the V-2.

The thing about the V-1, though, was as long as you _could_ hear it, you
were OK.  But once it went silent, then you were possibly in trouble.

That's what made the V-2 so much "worse."  Besides a larger payload (about
twice as much?) you never heard it coming because the engine cut off was at
such a high altitude and distance.

Funny thing about the sound... Even having heard it only in the movies and
newsreels, the sound is so distinct I can't forget it... But it's so distinct,
I can't even come with a broad description of the sound...

--
Robert J. Granvin
Southern Minnesota Wing Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 11 Sep 1994 23:06:18 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Buzz Bombs

The other name we used for them was "doodle-bugs".
The V1 flying bomb had a small pulse-jet engine mounted  above the tail
section of the (unmanned) aircraft.  This motor had an uncertain,
disjointed sound, very distinctive from any other, so that one
always know when a buzz-bomb was on the way. ("Doodle-bug" by the way,
was a New Zealand word, describing a flying beetle that seemed to
stumble erratically as it flew.)
Most terrible of all was when the V1's engine *stopped*.  The sudden
silence had a chilling, terrifying effect to anyone on the ground. For
when the motor cut out, the flying-bomb immediately fell from the sky,
falling quickly, nose-down, to explode with a deafening explosion when
it hit the ground.
The "buzz-bomb" was quite random - just launched by German troops across
the Channel, aimed in the general direction of the Greater London area.
It's direction was held on course by a sort of gyroscope device, and its
point of impact was governed only by the motor spping, killing and
maiming whatever English civilians happened to be unlucky enough by chance
to be where it hit.
The V1 flying bomb killed 5,500 people, injured 18,000, and destroyed
23,000 houses.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 11 Sep 1994 23:34:06 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: FREE FRENCH FORCES

Well put, as usual, Ben...
        There was a good deal of exasperation (to put it mildly) among
the British when their troops were sent into IndoChina at the end of WW2.
'Seemed pretty unfair to put veterans in harms way after the war was
supposed ot be over.
The French were slow off the mark in getting their own troops there.
Meanwhile, the local Viets started killing French and divers other old
enemies.
So, lucky Tommy was in he middle again.
BTW: When the French did arrive, they were said to have acted so despicably
that the British general publicly criricized "French atrocities" and insisted
on pulling out the British troops.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 25 Aug 1994 14:43:50 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Seaplane Spitfire not all that bad

On Wed, 24 Aug 1994, Tom Shirhall wrote:

> Actually, the Spitfire began life as a seaplane, for some series of famous
> air races. My source of information is a 1930's movie starring Leslie Howard.

It is true that Reginald Mitchell built up experience when designing the
fast floatplane racers for the Schneider Trophy: The S.5, S.6 and S.6B.
These were structurally very different aircraft, with thin, wire-braced
wings. The engine of the S.6B, the Rolls-Royce 'R', provided Rolls-Royce
with design experience to create the 'Merlin'.  The R engine itself would
be developed into the Griffon, used by later marks of Spitfires.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 01:26:05 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 09-12-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
09/12 Tue. Aircraft from fast carrier task force (Vice Adm. M.
           A. Mitscher) commence 3-day attack on Japanese
           airfields and shipping in the Visayas, P. I.  On 14
           September one carrier group (Vice Adm. J. S. McCain)
           shifts operations to targets on Mindanao, P. I.
           Romania signs armistice with United States, Great
           Britain and Russia.
            United States naval vessels sunk:
             High-speed transport NOA (APD-24), by collision,
              Palau Islands area, Caroline Islands,
              07 d. 01'N., 134 d. 30'E.
             Motor minesweeper YMS-409, foundered, off Atlantic
              Coast.
            United States vessel damaged:
             Destroyer FULLAM (DD-474), by collision, Palau
              Islands area, Caroline Islands,
              07 01'N., 134 d. 30'E.
            Japanese naval vessels sunk:
             Destroyer SHIKINAMI, by submarine GROWLER (SS-215),
              South China Sea,
              18 d. 16'N., 114 d. 40'E.
             Frigate HIRATO, by submarine GROWLER (SS-215),
              South China Sea,
              17 d. 54'N., 114 d. 49'E.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 09:27:40 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Preserving Ships

>
>Dear Steve Baldwin,
>
>
>Isn't HMS Warrior of 1860 preserved somewhere?
>
>Henry Sirotin

Hi Henry!
yeps- I'd forgotten about Warrior...it is a stone's throw from
HMS Victory in Portsmouth...

smb

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 06:52:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Buzz Bombs

 >From: Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>

 >The "buzz-bomb" was quite random - just launched by German troops across
 >the Channel, aimed in the general direction of the Greater London area.
 >It's direction was held on course by a sort of gyroscope device, and its
 >point of impact was governed only by the motor spping, killing and
 >maiming whatever English civilians happened to be unlucky enough by chance
 >to be where it hit.
 >The V1 flying bomb killed 5,500 people, injured 18,000, and destroyed
 >23,000 houses.

I remember reading somewhere that the Brits had "turned" a German
spy whose mission it was to report where V-1s were landing so that
the Germans could "aim" the missiles better, i.e., incease or
decrease the fuel load.  His messages reported that the buzz bombs
were hitting populated areas when in reality they were landing out
in the rural areas.

Can't remember where I read this but has anyone else heard this
story?

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 07:26:34 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Buzz Bombs

Hello, Bob!

I can supply that info and will, if someone else hasn't done so. It
will be later on this week, as I have two other projects ahead of
this one.

More later.

Terry

> Today my father-in-law was telling me about his "buzz bomb" experiences in
> London during the war. Several questions arose such as what did they sound
> like, what kind of engines did they have, their explosive power, etc. I
> would appreciate any information regarding the above questions. Thanks.
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 08:48:57 EST
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Japanese sailors

Jack McKillop asks about Japanese sailor going-down-with-the-ship.  In
previous posts I have mentioned the book _A Glorious Way To Die_ which
is about the sinking of the Yamato.  The author(s?) claim that Japanese
ships did not carry life preservers, rafts, etc., but later while discussing
the sinking of the Yahagi mention crew members boarding liferafts.  It
may be that the Yamato did not carry rafts and smaller craft did.
        This book also has some discussion concerning Japanese captains
who were expected to go down with the ship.  At least some crew members
were expected to survive to carry the portrait of the emperor to safety.
Interesting book with a rare view into life on a Japanese capital ship.
*****************************************************
(Roger) Brad Coon             The right to defend
[email-masked]          one's self and one's
[email-masked]    family against harm and
                              injustice is the most
                              basic civil right.

Proud to be a member of America's largest civil rights
group, the National Rifle Association.
******************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 10:09:13 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Buzz Bombs

Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]> said,...

>The V1 flying bomb killed 5,500 people, injured 18,000, and destroyed
>23,000 houses.

Does anyone have the approx number of weapons launched to put the casualties
into perspetive? 'Sounds like they numbered in the thousands... -Al

Alan G. Wild
Admin. Computing
University of Rhode Island
Kingston, R.I.  02881

I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 15:26:05 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Subject: 50TH: ENTRY INTO GERMANY

          WE WERE UNCERTAIN WHAT TO EXPECT WHEN WE ENTERED GERMANY

          One day which is clear in my mind is September 13, when
          we crossed into Germany. We hiked across an open field,
          through woods, and into a small village. We were not sure
          what to expect. As we approached the border, the civilians
          seemed hostile. To our pleasant surprise, there were white
          sheets hanging from many of the windows.

          As we neared the village, I recalled that I had never fired
          the gun which I got from the Belgian. Nervous anyway, I
          decided to be sure it would work. This was a silly thing to
          do, since I was not the only person who was nervous. The
          loud explosion brought the battalion commander running to
          where I was, demanding to know what had happened. When
          I told him, he simply said, "Don't do that again."

          Although our entry into Germany went easily, the hard part
          was yet to come. We had heard about the defense line Hitler
          had ordered built along the border. We were, however,
          uncertain what to expect when we reached what we called
          the Siegfried Line. (The Germans called it the West Wall.)

          Although we were not aware of it at the time, on September
          3 Hitler had recalled von Rundstedt, whom he had relieved
          at the beginning of July. Even though the German Army
          had lost hundreds of thousands of men since June 6, he
          and his commanders managed to pull together improvised
          units for a defense of the border area. Since we were very
          low on artillery ammunition, General Gerow decided to delay
          an attack on the Siegfried Line for two days. In addition, we
          were all very tired, and our equipment was suffering from
          lack of maintenance. Nevertheless, optimism prevailed, and
          we all expected soon to reach the Rhine, little suspecting
          that it would be over six months before the 4th Division
          would cross that river.

          The 4th Division attack on the Siegfried Line began on
          September 14 in the Schnee Eifel, a hilly wooded area with
          poor roads east of St. Vith, Belgium. Against varied
          resistance from disorganized German forces, the Division
          captured six miles of the West Wall. The price was about
          800 casualties.

          During this operation, an incident which made a profound
          impression concerned my new radio operator. We were using
          a German pillbox as a command post. Since the Germans
          were shelling us, the operator set up his radio just outside
          an embrasure, while he sat inside. A group of infantrymen
          were gathered outside near the radio. An artillery shell hit
          the concrete side of the pillbox near where they were
          standing and killed them all. When I heard the explosion I
          ran to where my radio operator was. He had not been
          wounded but was in shock. I got him to lie down and rest
          for awhile, assuring him he was would be all right. He made
          it clear, however, that he was unwilling to stay at the front
          any longer. After I explained the circumstances to Capt.
          Edward C. (Ed) Green, the cooperative commander of the
          29th's Headquarters Battery, he assigned another radio
          operator to me.

          From where we had an artillery observation post, I could see
          the Germans just across an open field. In a clump of woods,
          they were well dug in. If we fired a salvo, therefore, they
          simply got into their shelters when they heard the rounds
          coming. I tried firing random single shells, in the hope of
          unnerving them, but tired of this before they did.

          Again contrary to my view that my place was at battalion
          headquarters, I accompanied Joe Gude's C Company on an
          operation. As we marched across a clearing in the trees,
          artillery shells landed several hundred yards behind us.
          Assuming a German artillery observer had us under
          observation, I instinctively jumped into a nearby ditch.
          Seeing this, several infantrymen did the same. Without
          looking at me, Gude shouted, "All right, you can't hide from
          them, so keep on marching." Embarrassed, I got out of the
          ditch and rejoined Gude on the road. After advancing a
          distance without encountering small arms or further artillery
          fire, the company returned to the positions it had been
          holding.

          Not long after that, during an intense battle for control of a
          hill, Gude was wounded. I watched the medics trying to load
          him into an ambulance. He refused to leave until he had
          received his liquor ration.  END TEXT  Copyright: John C. Ausland
          Excerpt from Chapter 10 of LETTERS HOME: A WAR MEMOIR

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 09:27:56 -0700
From:    John Holtz <[email-masked]>
Subject: SOURCE: Jane's Fighting...WW2

>  (snip!)
>  An excellent source is my favorite, _JANE'S FIGHTING
>  SHIPS OF WORLD WAR II_,and excerpts of the various JANE'S. This source was
>  always available when I was on board ship (which was almost continuous).
>  I sure could use one to make my personal library complete, of course, at a
>  nominal price. Do you have any suggestions ?
>
>  Carl Wernke
>  [email-masked]
>
Carl (and other interested parties:

The Scholar's Bookshelf regularly publishes a catalog of Military
History titles.  They may be reached at 110 Melrich Rd., Cranbury, NJ
08512.

Their Fall '94 catalog list the Jane's title above for $29.95.

jwh

--
John W. Holtz, Asst. Professor       INTERNET: [email-masked]
Sangamon State University Library       PHONE: (217) 786-6633
Springfield, IL  62794-9243               FAX: (217) 786-6208

 < I am not responsible for words spoken or actions taken before 11 am >

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 10:32:20 -0400
From:    Warren Thompson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Buzz bombs

To Al et al.: Per J.R. Smith & Antony L. Kay, GERMAN AIRCRAFT OF THE SECOND
WORLD WAR, p.671, 2419 hits recorded on London + 2448 on Antwerp. Estimated 4
times this number had to have been launched. Other locales less heavily
bombed. BTW the last recorded hits on London and Antwerp were in March 1945.

-- Warren Thompson

[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 10:54:23 -0400
From:    Douglass Green <[email-masked]>
Subject: Name of operation

Would someone kindly advise me of the name of the operation let by Otto
Skorzney to free El Duce in 1944

Thank you

Doug Green

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 10:17:33 -0500
From:    "Sidney W. Kitchel" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Preserved Naval Vessels

Steven Pudlo writes:
>When the guide doesn't even know the expected life expency of a wooden warship
>of that era (12 years, I beleive, from my uneducated readings), how can he
>expect to impress visitors with the longevity of the Const.?

        People interested in the preservation of U.S.S. Constitution
(IX-21) might like to hear one little tidbit. I'm writing this
message about 25 miles from Constitution's new masts. There is a grove
of virgin oak at the Naval Weapons Center, Crane (Crane, Indiana) that
is being looked after carefully. Sometime about the turn of the
century several of the oaks will be harvested and shipped east to be
made into the IX-21's new masts.

                                                        --Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel           [email-masked], [email-masked]
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 11:44:58 EDT
From:    Jerry Kasiowniak <[email-masked]>
Subject: Rommel

>.Date:         Wed, 7 Sep 1994 11:41:16 -0500
>From:         "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
>Jerry,
>
>     Are you implying that Rommel was an amoral careerist
>lacking the "inner direction" moral consciousness that has
>been instilled in Bundeswehr officers since the war (at
>least for a time)?
>
>Lou Coatney

 Hi Lou,

I love that phrase "amoral careerist". I wish I would have thought of
it myself. I'm going to start using it at work. (Giving you full credit,
of course.)

As you know, Rommel and many of the other senior generals during the
'39-'45 war were trained in the Kaiser's army, continued into the
Weimar army and were obsorbed in the Nazi army. Three distinct armies
with three distinct purposes for existence. Rommel had six years of the
Nazi experience to make a moral judgment of the nazi cause.

Rommel's reputation in the West gives me the impression that he is
a "teflon general". The onus of working for the nazi's doesn't seem to
stick to him. I just think it should.

Jerry Kasiowniak
Wayne State University

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 11:43:40 EDT
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <[email-masked]>
Subject: 11 Sept 1944 incident

This account is excerpted from "The Bluenosed Bastards of Bodney",
the group history of the USAAF 8th AF's 352nd FG, edited by
Robert H. "Punchy" Powell, published 1990 by Taylor Publishing
of Dallas, Texas.  The story is "The Liberation of Lille", as told
by Lt. Cyril B. Doleac, a pilot with the 487th FS of the group.

The group had been assigned to escort duty that day, but the bombers
they were to escort aborted the mission over Germany due to bad
weather.  The group diverted to a ground attack sweep.  While
attacking a train, Lt. Donahue's P-51D was hit by debris from the
resulting explosion, and began streaming coolant.  Since he
wouldn't be able to make it back, he climbed to 5000 feet and
bailed out.  Lt. Doleac orbited the area until Donahue was safely
on the ground, then began to climb back up to join the group,
which had returned to 35,000 feet to get above the weather.

Doleac soon realized that he would run short of fuel if he continued
to climb, and radioed his squadron leader, Lt. Col. J.C. Meyers.
Meyers responded with a vector toward British lines, and Doleac
leveled off at 25,000 feet and headed off alone.  With his fuel
level running dangerously low, he began looking for a place to
land.  Seeing two cities ahead, he headed towards them, and moments
later his engine quit from lack of fuel.  Between the two cities,
he could make out a heavily bombed grass airfield.  Doleac decided
that if anyone started shooting at him, he would either bail out
or belly land and destroy the aircraft.  Since no shots were fired,
he elected to make a wheels down, dead-stick landing on a small
undamaged section of the grass strip.

He was amazed to see a large group of women and children running
toward him.  They were carrying flowers, and were coming to greet
him.  They began autographing his Mustang, while he tried
unsuccessfully to explain that he needed gasoline.  Finally someone
who could speak English came along, who told him "Congratulations,
the town is yours, you liberated it!"  Since his plane was named
"Maid of Orleans" (Cyril was from New Orleans), the crowd was
especially pleased, although couldn't understand why he didn't
speak French.

Sparked into action by his presence, the local underground began
rounding up the German soldiers billeted there.  Luckily, within a
few hours, American tanks had made their way to the town.  Doleac
was able to obtain 150 gallons of aviation gasoline in five gallon
cans, and flew back to Bodney, England, the next day.

Partially related side note:  Doleac's earlier P-51D carried the
name "Ex-Lax... Shht'n'Git", IMHO one of the all time greatest names
for a fighter plane.  The manufacturers of Ex-Lax displayed a photo
of the aircraft at its corporate headquarters during the war years.

Dennis E. Sparks
[email-masked]
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 12:47:52 -0400
From:    Emery Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: 50TH:  Operation Market Garden

Howdy everyone,

Can anybody post a daily synopsis or brief history on Operation
Market-Garden, or know where I can find a good source to post it myself
to all of you?

What was Monty thinking, anyway?  To limit the XXX Corps to such a
narrow path with so many river obstacles seems to exceed boldness.

Also, does anyone know the casualties incurred by the airborne forces
dropped on Arnhem and Nijmegan as a proportion to their initial
strengths?  i.e. How many captured, killed or wounded?

Thanks again,

Emery Ford

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 09:37:14 -0700
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 13-SEP-1944

On 13-SEP-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The German garrison in Brest refuses to surrender. The US 3rd
Army continues their offensive along the line of the Moselle from Thionville
to Epinal.

Eastern Front - In response to pressure put on by the Allies, the Russians at
last begin dropping supplies to the Polish Home Army (AK) fighting in Warsaw.
The 2nd Belorussian Front, captures Lomza, west of Bialystok, a German
strongpoint for the defence of East Prussia and Warsaw.

Italian Front - The 4th Armoured Division (Canadian I Corps) and the 1st
Division (British V Corps) takes the Coriano and Gemmano hill positions. The
Germans are forced to withdraw north, leaving the road to Rimini open.

Foreign Affairs
---------------
Rumanian Peace Terms Announced - Moscow has announced the terms of the Allied
armistice with Rumania. Reparations of $300,000,000 is to be paid to Russia
over a six-year period. Rumania will retain civil administration in non-combat
areas. The terms also provide that Rumania maintain 12 divisions to serve
under the Russian command and keep them at full strength.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "United States Naval Chronology,
World War II" by Naval Historical Division - United States Navy, "Facts On
File Yearbook 1944, Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 12:17:25 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Buzz Bombs

Hello, Alan!

I just posted this info and other related info to Jim Brady. I will
repost this to the list tomorrow.

The Germans had 25000  V-1s ready for use in 1944. I will get back to
the list on this tomorrow. I have the exact number launched and the
number shot down or destroyed.

More later.

Terry
> Does anyone have the approx number of weapons launched to put the casualties
> into perspetive? 'Sounds like they numbered in the thousands... -Al
>
> Alan G. Wild
> Admin. Computing
> University of Rhode Island
> Kingston, R.I.  02881
>
> I am the NRA.
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 12:31:43 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Mr. Coatney's comments on Eisenhower

Hello, Ben!

I haven't responded to Lou's remarks yet, but I will offer you my two
cents' worth on this.

> Perhaps someone could help me here.  I am always confused by
the
> implication that Mr. Coatney has made above that (particularly) Soviet
> retribution vis-a-vis the Germans after WWII was somehow a response to
> the Holocaust.

    There is no evidence to support that thesis.

Andreas Hillgruber made this point devastatingly clear in
> his 1986 book "Zweierlei Untergang: Die Zerschlagung des Deutschen
> Reiches und das Ende des Europaeischen Judentums," (Dual Decline: The
> Desimation of the German Reich and the End of European Jewry. -the
> work has not to my knowledge been translated - sorry).  In his book
> Hillgruber takes for granted that current historiography maintains that
> the harsh treatment of Germans in the East was a reaction to the
> Holocaust and then trys to say that such treatment was, in fact,
> completely unjustified because the Allies were not yet aware of the full
> implications of the Nazi death camps.

    This is correct and corresponds to all that I have read on this
issue.

I am confused because I have always felt that the harsh Soviet
> treatment of the Germans was the result of two entirely different causes.
> The first is the brutality that accompanies virtually every war.  The
> second is a soviet reaction to the brutality of the Nazis during the
> occupation of Soviet territory.

    This is also very true. It doesn't need to be expounded on here,
as this is known by all who are on this list.

 I am confused, therefore, by Mr.
> Coatney's assertion that the Soviets should have exacted their retribution
> against German males as the ones responsible for the Holocaust.

    There is nothing, that I am aware of that would support such a
thesis. The record of Soviet treatment of Jews, although not on the
scale of the Nazis, was lamentable.

> (Furthermore, I think that some reference to Claudia Koonz's "Mothers in
> the Fatherland" is in order to establish whether German women were
> innocent of all complicity in Nazi crimes.)

>         If someone could please explain to me the logic which says that
> we should see the Holocaust and the Soviet retribution against the
> Germans as somehow connected I would appreciate it.  Frankly it escapes me.

    There is neither logic nor careful reasoning that would support
such an idea. The attitude of the Russians invading Eastern Germany
was one borne of pure retribution. Nothing I have ever read on this
subject, and I have read much on it, has even so much as hinted at
connecting their retribution in Eastern Germany as being motivated by
knowledge of the Holocaust.

    Thanks.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 12:39:07 -0500
From:    "Sidney W. Kitchel" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP Re: Post Washington Treaty U.S. BBs

John Holtz writes to the list:
>I believe there were 3 classes of "fast" battleships:
>
>North Carolina (w/South Dakota and Washington)
>Indiana (w/Massachusetts and Alabama)
>Iowa (w/Missouri and Wisconsin)

        Here's what the 1944-45 Jane's Fighting Ships has to say:

1. Montana Class -- 5 ships (Construction cancelled July 21, 1943)

        Montana, Ohio, Maine, New Hampshire, Lousiana

        65,000 tons (full load) Length: 903 feet Beam: 120 feet

        (... were to have been enlarged Iowa class with 12 16
          inch guns)

2. Iowa Class -- 5 ships

        Iowa            (Aug. 27, 1942)
        New Jersey      (Dec. 7, 1942)
        Missouri        (Jan. 29, 1943)
        Wisconsin       (Dec. 7, 1943)
        Kentucky        (laid down 6/12/44...)
        (Illinois  -- cancelled Aug. 11, 1945 when 22% complete)

        52,000 tons (full load)  Complement: 2700  Speed: 33 kts

        Length: 807 feet  Beam: 108 feet  Draft: 36 feet

        9 16 inch guns

3. South Dakota Class -- 4 ships

        South Dakota    (June 7, 1941)
        Massachusettes  (Sept. 23, 1941)
        Indiana         (Nov. 21, 1941)
        Alabama         (Feb. 16, 1942)

        42000 tons (full load)  Complement: 2500  Speed: 30 kts.

        Length: 680 feet (o.a.) Beam: 108 feet  Draft: 27 feet

        9  16 inch guns

4. Washington Class -- 2 ships

        Washington      (June 1, 1940)
        North Carolina  (June 13, 1940)

        41000 tons (full load)  Complement: 2500  Speed: 27 kts

        Length: 729 feet (o.a.)  Beam: 108 feet  Draft: 27 feet

        9  16 inch guns

                                                        --Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel           [email-masked], [email-masked]
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 13:35:26 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 50TH: ENTRY INTO GERMANY

John wrote,...

>      <stuff deleted>... Gude shouted, "All right, you can't hide from
>          them, so keep on marching." <more deleted>
>
>          Not long after that, during an intense battle for control of a
>          hill, Gude was wounded. I watched the medics trying to load
>          him into an ambulance. He refused to leave until he had
>          received his liquor ration.

John, 'can't wait for your book to arrive. There was a Cpt. who trained a
bunch of we officer candidates at Bragg. He was crazy with the artillery
simulators. He asked us if we thought it was strange that a cpt such as
he (~50 years old) was still (a captain/in the army)? We all understood
there was a long streak in his veins,... Gude reminds me of him. -Al

Alan G. Wild
Admin. Computing
University of Rhode Island
Kingston, R.I.  02881

I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 12:37:55 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Rommel

Hello, Jerry!

Interesting post.

> Rommel's reputation in the West gives me the impression that he is
> a "teflon general". The onus of working for the nazi's doesn't seem to
> stick to him. I just think it should.

    Why do you think that it should? He may have been working for the
Nazis but his attitudes and actions reflected the highest traditions
of the military service regardless of the uniform he wore.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 12:48:55 -0600
From:    Dave Neil <[email-masked]>
Subject: Alabama and Drum

I was at Mobile, Alabama a few years ago and can confirm that the submarine
on display with the Battleship Alabama is, indeed, The Drum.  My wife and
I spent almost an entire day there, most of it on The Alabama.
A remarkable display...Keep those preservation efforts goin', boys!
Youngsters like me (age 33) need to have those important pieces of history
preserved!!!

        I would've liked to have taken in the Pensacola Air Station as
suggested in a previous posting, but time prevented it.  I did get to stop
by Patriot's Point later on - the carrier there IS billed as the Yorktown,
but I don't know if it was originally the Bon Homme Richard...interesting...

                        Dave Neil
                        Systems Analyst
                        Fort Lewis College
                        Durango, CO  81301
                        [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 14:57:33 CCS
From:    Jorge Merino <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: USS Bon Homme Richard

John Peterson wrote:

> Hi all.  Isn't the Yorktown at Patriot's Point the former Bon Homme Richard?
> I seem to remember that it was being built when the original Yorktown was
> sunk, and they decided to rename it.  I visited it about ten years ago, so
> I don't remember too well.

I think you are right. The CV-10 was originally named Bon Homme Richard, but
after the original Yorktown (CV-5) was sunk, she was renamed Yorktown. The
name Bon Homme Richard was used later for the CV-31, another Essex-class
carrier. BTW, where is the CV-31 now? I hope she wasn't scrapped yet :-|

Jorge Merino

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 15:13:16 -0400
From:    "Benjamin B. Weber" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: *Other* Holocausts, Mr. Weber

On Sat, 10 Sep 1994, Louis R. Coatney wrote:

> The Jewish Holocaust wasn't the only one.  The Soviets
>   had already discovered on their own territory what the
>   Nazi Germans were doing to Russians, Jews, Belorussians,
>   ..., in such camps.  Auschwitz was nothing new to its
>   Soviet liberators -- not that the NKVD didn't have similar
>   installations itself -- just more efficient.
>
> Lou Coatney
>

Your response to my question is a bit cryptic.  If you mean to imply that
all Soviets in the Nazi occupied territories were victims of the
"Holocaust" then I would take issue.  In scholarly usage the term
"Holocaust" refers to the total, or near total destruction of a
specifically targeted group.  In the context of Nazi persecution this
included Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, Germans of African descent, Jehovah's
Witnesses and in some cases the physically and mentally handicapped.  That
is not to say that there were not many other victims of Nazi aggression,
just that their experiences are not part of the "Holocaust" per se.  I
would argue that the vast majority of the twenty million Soviet casualties
fall into the category of victims of Nazi aggression.  (According to
Hilberg's rather conservative calculations the Nazis killed approx. one
million Jews in the occupied Soviet territories.  See: Hilberg, "The
Destruction of the European Jews.")  That leaves around nineteen million
non-Holocaust victims.
        Understanding that most Soviet victims were not Holocaust victims,
my question is why so many people persist in seeing Soviet retribution on
German soil as a retribution for the Holocaust?  I am aware that many try
to relativize the two by arguing that the harsh Allied occupation was some
sort of divine punishment for German crimes.  I do not, however, buy this
argument.  In fact, I find it extremely problematic.  It leads to the
conclusion that the Germans somehow atoned for the Holocaust by enduring
the occupation.
        I would also refute your claim that Auschwitz was nothing new to
the Soviet liberators.  Surely no one would argue that the Gulags and
Auschwitz were not both places of immense human suffering.  But to say
that Auschwitz was somehow related to, or an extension of the Gulags is
problematic.  They served the same function of providing a place to
incarcerate political opponents.  However, Auschwitz had the added
function of facilitating genocide.  I know of no similar intent on the
part of the Soviets.  Neither Stalin's dekulakization policies nor his
terror campaign against the Soviet citizens were genocidal.
        I would conclude, then, that the brutal Nazi occupation of Soviet
territories was not the same as the Holocaust (although the Holocaust
certainly went on under the occupation) nor was Auschwitz part of the same
process that spawned the Gulags.  To lump the two in one category is
reductionist and wholly inaccurate.

Thanks, Terry, for your comments regarding my question of how one can see
the treatment of Germans by the Allies as retribution for the Holocaust.
I would welcome other responses.

Benjamin B. Weber
Univ. of Vermont
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 15:04:29 CCS
From:    Jorge Merino <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: Essex-class carriers

John Riegsecker wrote:

> Unfortunately, most of the ships are off the naval yard so you can't
> walk up to them, but BB62 (New Jersery) and BB63 (Missiouri) are easy to
> recognize.  I could also make out CV41 (Midway), but no Hornet.  I decided to
> go to a little naval museum in Bremerton and ask them.  When I got there the
> gentleman at the desk was explaining to a couple that the carrier
> they had seen being towed out that morning was Hornet!!

Isn't CV-41 Midway scheduled to become Training carrier, I think, after
CV-43 Coral Sea has completed her turn?

Glad to hear that Hornet is "still" alive, but sad to hear she's going
to the scrapping line :-(

> He had a list of ships in the "junk yard" there and I began writing down
> the names of WWII vintage ships.  In addition to the two BB's and Midway
> there was Bennington CV20 and Oriskany CV34.  As I wrote down Oriskany,
> he said, "No, she was taken out right behind Hornet."  So, despite a
> previous note, I think she too is under way to the wrecking ball.  Of
> course her anchor could have been taken off long ago.

I remember that the Oriskany CV-34 was completed very later than the other
Essex-class carriers (1950?), and that she had some little differences.
I don't know much about her design, but I think these differences were
almost eliminated when all the Essex-class carriers were modified with the
new angled flight deck in the mid 50s. Does anyone of you have more details
on this?

Again, sorry to hear that the Oriskany is also under way to the scrapping
pipeline. My most sincere condolences to all vintage carrier-savers....
The Oriskany played an important role during Vietnam war, together with
many other Essex-class WW-II veterans. If she only could escape..........

I would like to know where could I find plans/schematics of Essex-class
carriers (in detail). I'm planning to build a detailed scale model of
one of them (but I've nothing but some photographs and a very deteriorated
and small scale model of the USS Wasp CV-18, that I got from a friend).

Jorge Merino

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 14:43:24 -600
From:    Lowell Rick Cox <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Preserved World War II ships book

>The USS Inaugrial is gone now--she sank from her moor at St. Louis near
>the arch during the great flood of '93 and hasn;t been seen since--she
>is probably near Louisiana about now.  Sad but true.  Seriously--they
>don;t know where she went--lost in the Mississippi River somewhere.  TAS
>
>************************************************************************
>*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
>*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
>*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
>*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
>*  ID# [email-masked]                             *
>************************************************************************
>

Tim,

Was that the minesweeper that was located near the paddleboats etc.?
I visited a minesweeper of some type there by the arch back in the mid-70s
got to play with the twin 40mm etc.  I hadn't known that it was still there,
or that it had sunk during the flood.  Must have happened when I was on
flood duty with the Illinois National Guard.   Too bad, I was hoping to take
my kids there in the next year or so.   Thanks for the update.

Rick Cox     [email-masked]
Ameritech National Customer Service Center
Hoffman Estates, IL  USA

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 14:52:11 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Name of operation

Hello, Doug!

Will gladly provide that info for  you. At the moment, all my related
material on this subject is at home.

However the operation you are referring to occurred on 23 Sep 1943
not in 1944.

    The pilot of the Fiesler Storch, Hauptmann Heinrich Gerlach, died
10 Oct 1993. The man who physically freed Mussoline from his captors,
Harald Mors, lives today in Wesel, Germany, if this is of interest.

    A very interesting story.

    Will write more tomorrow.

    All the best.

    Terry

> Would someone kindly advise me of the name of the operation let by Otto
> Skorzney to free El Duce in 1944
>
> Thank you
>
> Doug Green
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 13:45:07 -0600
From:    Dave Neil <[email-masked]>
Subject: BUZZ BOMBS

I remember , (reading it, I wasn't there :) ) that a few V-1's were actually
shot down by allied aircraft.  Seems to me that they would've been vulnerable
to ground fire as well, although "vulnerable" is a relative term here.  The
V-2's, on the other hand, had to be destroyed on the ground if they
were to be destroyed at all, as their near vertical flight paths rendered
them inpervious to interception.  Can anyone back me up on this?

                        Dave Neil
                        Systems Analyst
                        Fort Lewis College
                        Durango, CO 81301
                        [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 15:57:11 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: USS Bon Homme Richard

Bonne Homme Richard eh? John Paul Jones' ship? Didn't know they named
anything after her. the Serapis was the one he captured.

BTW what he REALLY said was "I'll sink, but I'm damned if I'll strike".
This was in response to the British suggestion that he strike his colors
before his ship sank out from under him.

Source:Museum of National Heritage, Lexington, MA USA.
                                                        ;-)Steve

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - [email-masked] |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 16:21:50 EDT
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Another Hornet (CV-12) note

First of all, thanks very much to John Riegsecker for making the
effort to check on Hornet.  I'm sorry to hear of her imminent
demise.

Sort of off topic:

Another notable event in which Hornet played a role...

She was the prime recovery ship for the Apollo 11 lunar mission
in July 1969.  Remember the shiny aluminum isolation trailer
containing the three returning astronauts?  Remember the photo
with the astronauts in the trailer looking through the window,
being greeted by President Richard Nixon?  The sign above the
window read "Hornet + 3".

Further off topic:  I just finished reading "Moonshot" by
astronauts Deke Slayton and Alan Shepard.  I recommend it.

Back to topic:  Deke Slayton flew B-25s in Europe during WWII.

Dennis E. Sparks
[email-masked]
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 14:52:32 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: "Holocaust" to be defined narrowly or inclusively?

An interesting definition of terms debate, Benjamin, but you
  are wrong.

*Some* schlars *do* use "holocaust" to describe the mass
  extermination/enslavement of other peoples, beyond just
  gypsies, Jews, homosexuals, (and the rest of your list).
  For example, THE FORGOTTEN HOLOCAUST, by Richard Lukas,
  describing that degree of victimization of Poles generally
  by the Nazis.

The Communists *were* genocidal in their methods, as you
  should very well know/acknowledge.  The Ukrainian Famine
  was a deliberate starvation program to break Ukrainian
  ethnic pride at the peasant level, not just prosperous
  landholders.  The round-up and shipment of over a
  million Polish men, women, and children to Siberia --
  to starve, freeze and/or sicken to death -- was genocidal
  in intent and effect.  Molotov's public gloating about
  putting an end to "that bastard of the Versailles Treaty"
  -- Poland -- is well-recorded.
    Again, I refer you to STALIN:  BREAKER OF NATIONS, by
  Robert Conquest (whose contentions about Stalinism have
  been verified/vindicated by the Russians themselves,
  now).

Again, also, I refer you to the NKVD/SS conference at
  Zakopane in early 1940, to share concentration camp
  experience/technology.

This attempt by some "scholars"(?) to deny the use of the
  term "holocaust" to other peoples similarly victimized
  by the Nazis *and* the Soviets has seemed to me to be
  ethnocentric/racist and/or ideological in motivation.
  ("*My* people suffered more than *they* did."  or  "The
  Communists weren't as evil as the Nazis."  which they
  certainly *were*.)

This attempt seems dishonest and hypocritical, even if
  it isn't intentional.  Instead of quibbling about terms
  and (implictly) each other's suffering, the victims might
  help themselves, each other, and the world by making sure
  the suffering of *everyone* is fully understood.

The "academic" coverup of the mass exterminations in the
  Communist takeovers of China and then (North) Vietnam
  certainly *were* "scholarly" -- rather like David Irving's
  apparent attempt to obfuscate Hitler's responsibility for
  the HolocaustS by quibbling over document proof -- and
  it epitomized the moral hypocrisy and bankruptcy of the
  West's intellectual institutions.

I saw this mindset at work, in my research on the West's
  "handling" of the Katyn Massacre, and I still boil
  readily whenever I (think I) encounter it.

In terms of bodycount, the Ukrainian Famine alone is
  estimated to have killed anywhere up to 14 million
  people.  If *that* ethno-killing doesn't qualify as
  a "Holocaust," ... !  Anyway, ....

Lou Coatney, Historian at Large
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 15:29:43 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 50TH:  Operation Market Garden

Hello, Emery

    I believe I have the info you are looking for. Will check.

    Will be in touch very shortly.

    All the best.

    Terry

> Can anybody post a daily synopsis or brief history on Operation
> Market-Garden, or know where I can find a good source to post it myself
> to all of you?
>
> What was Monty thinking, anyway?  To limit the XXX Corps to such a
> narrow path with so many river obstacles seems to exceed boldness.
>
> Also, does anyone know the casualties incurred by the airborne forces
> dropped on Arnhem and Nijmegan as a proportion to their initial
> strengths?  i.e. How many captured, killed or wounded?
>
> Thanks again,
>
> Emery Ford
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 16:49:02 -0500
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: BUZZ BOMBS

Wasn't there at least one incident of a Tempest fighter over England
downing a Buzz Bomb by flying next to it and tipping it over with its
wingtip?  No sources available, just (questionable) memory.  Definitely
a dangerous thing to try in any case.
Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 15:42:22 CDT
From:    Perry Otis <Otis=[email-masked]>
Subject: SHOOTING DOWN BUZZ BOMBS

I have read accounts of Allied pilots shooting down V-1s, so you remember
correctly.  I have also read accounts of another method of downing V-1s,
used by pilots who were out of ammunition.  The pilot would match speed with
the rocket and, using the tip of his wing, flip the rocket over.  This
effectively scrambled its gyroscope causing it to plunge into the ground.
Obviously, this was done over an open area.  It would sort of defeat the
purpose to do this over a city. :-{)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 18:27:44 -0500
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: ROMMEL and/or "The Grief"

Date sent:  12-SEP-1994 18:22:49

Ok Friends:

        Now that I let that particular snake loose, perhaps we could take a
little look at the other sections of my message, hmmm??  I want, nay, need
all the information that can be given to me on the "Grief" (Griffin in
English) or the "Adler" (Eagle in English) these were Rommel's command
vehicle, from what I know of them they were designed to be front line
vehicles, and to protect the commander during a battle, they also included
his radio gear.  What became of them, or has anyone seen reproductions of
them.  Further I am trying to find a lead on the adress for a WWII
recreation group, near Plattsburgh NY or Montreal Canada.  I would like to
start working on the gear of a soldier from the Afrika Korps.  As I said
before if anyone can help me with suggestions for appropriate gear I would
be obliged.  Thanks for your time in this matter.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Jamison J. Long (AKA Neuromancer, Flag Admiral, Jamie)  [{Founder T.E.R.R.A}]
[email-masked] or [email-masked]

Alia iacta est.  (The Die is Cast.)  -Iulius Caesar, upon crossing the Rubicon.
   {Also the Motto of T.E.R.R.A. [The Embry-Riddle Roleplaying Assoc.]}
 =============================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 17:30:54 -0500
From:    Drew Halevy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Female Nazis

> > (Furthermore, I think that some reference to Claudia Koonz's "Mothers in
> > the Fatherland" is in order to establish whether German women were
> > innocent of all complicity in Nazi crimes.)

I've seem to have lost a thread here. What is the conclusion of this
book? That only men were responsible for Nazi war crimes? What about all
the female guards in the concentration camps? What about the Bitch of Belsen?
-drew

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 18:38:11 EDT
From:    Patrick D Marsden <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: "Holocaust"

My two cents on this subject...

Didn't the Soviets also march huge numbers of captured German
enlisted personnel into the Russian interior never to be seen again.
According to Erich Hartmann's biography, "The Blond Knight of Germany",
enlisted men were sent to the bogs to harvest peat and build swamp
roads.  They were worked until they died and were replaced by others.
He made it very clear that it was a one way trip for those men.

On a slightly related note, In the book "U-977" the author, whose
name I can't seem to remember right now, mentioned how his crew was
aware of the "plan" by the allies to de-industrialize Germany and
force it back to an agricultural society only.  This was partially
responsible for their decision to head for South America instead of
surrender.  Aparently the German sailors were expecting harsh
retaliation from their enemies and the dismemberment of Greater Germany.
What their reasoning was is another question.

Anyway...

Patrick

[email-masked]
Aerospace Engineer & NRA member

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 18:34:28 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: THANKS

Thanks, Alan. The cigar arrived today and I look forward to lighting up after
dinner. That was some jacket the owner of The Bag Piper wears in that picture.
The shamrock on his lapel gives him away. Cheers to the new lad. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 19:23:53 -0400
From:    Warren Thompson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Hist: Use of term "Holocaust"

To Lou Coatney et al: Perhaps it would be convenient to keep the term
"Holocaust" restricted to the primary intended victims ... and use
"genocide" for the other mass-murder endeavors.

I am not aware that Hitler came to power with any reference to exterminating
Poles, Romani, blacks, et al., [though he clearly thought them inferior] but
he did make reference to the use of "Giftgas" against the Jews in MEIN KAMPF.
(At the same time, this is not necessarily to claim that genocide against any
ethnic/racial group was in the cards from the very beginning, say, in 1933.)

Reactions?

-- Warren Thompson
LEBANON VALLEY COLLEGE
Annville PA 17003

[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 19:41:45 -0400
From:    Warren Thompson <[email-masked]>
Subject: HIST: Female Nazis

To David Halevy et al.: Are you referring to Ilsa Koch, the "Bitch of
Buchenwald"? The last commandant of Bergen-Belsen was Josef Kramer, "known as
the "Beast of Belsen."+

-- Warren Thompson

[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 16:52:21 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Preserving (parts of) Ships

Following is from the 31 August 1994 issue of "On the Surface", an
every-other-week news type publication of the Naval Surface
Warfare Center, Dahlgren Division, Dahlgren, Virginia.

NSWC/DD houses one of the very few if not only over-water naval gun
test ranges.  They can test EVERYTHING, right up to the 16 inchers.
(They're kind of quiet these days, but I could tell you stories...)

Begin Quote

Great Guns!

(Two pictures: A 16-inch barrel on a rail transporter and a 14-inch
barrel on a many-wheeled transporter.)

Dahlgren public works personnel move a 16-inch naval gun barrel from
its resting place (left photo) to Dahlgren's yardcraft area for
placement aboard a Navy LCU.  At (right photo) the base's main range
area, a 64-wheel transporter is used to move a 14-inch gun barrel to
yardcraft where it went aboard an Army barge.  Both guns are destined
for museums - the 16-inch goes to the Battleship South Dakota Memorial
in Sioux Falls, S.D.; the 14-inch gun to the Hugh Moore Memorial Park
and Museum, Easton, Pa., as part of a Bethlehem Steel (gun's
manufacturer) exhibit.  Former shipmates on the USS South Dakota
raised money to transport the gun barrel from Dahlgren to Sioux Falls.
The museum also got volunteer help from CSX and Burlington Northern
railroads to transport the heavy barrel.  School children around the
Bethlehem, Pa., area helped raise money to move the 14-inch gun.
Bethlehem Steel officials came to Dahlgren to witness the event.  The
company is the only manufacturer left in the United States that can
produce heavy steel forgings (such the gun barrel).

End Quote.  Typos are faithfully reproduced! :-)

Of other interest, just sitting around over there on the gun range, is
ONE very large 18 inch gun barrel, which had posted on it a sign
reading "The Only 18 Inch Gun in the US Navy".  No details of how,
when or why it came to be there!!!!!

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA 22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 18:56:34 EDT
From:    Richard Kaplan <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: V-1 Movie

The movie centered around the V-1s is "Operation Crossbow" starring George
Peppard as our espionage hero, Sophia Loren as the deep cover interest and a
really good British actor as the smarmy double agent.  The sound effects of the
buzz bombs were impressive, though I can't vouch for their accuracy.

                                        Richard Kaplan

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 13 Sep 1994 02:33:33 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Rommel

On Mon, 12 Sep 1994, Jerry Kasiowniak wrote:

> As you know, Rommel and many of the other senior generals during the
> '39-'45 war were trained in the Kaiser's army, continued into the
> Weimar army and were obsorbed in the Nazi army. Three distinct armies
> with three distinct purposes for existence. Rommel had six years of the
> Nazi experience to make a moral judgment of the nazi cause.
>
> Rommel's reputation in the West gives me the impression that he is
> a "teflon general". The onus of working for the nazi's doesn't seem to
> stick to him. I just think it should.

I think that you are drawing the lines too sharp here. Rommel did not have
the advantage of 20/20 hindsight. Even a general is just a part of his
society. He can be accused of serving under a ruthless dictator for many
years, and not opposing him until it was too late --- but so does the
vast majority of people under a dictatorship.

The relations between the German Army and the Nazi system were very
complex. Cooperation was a part of it, but so was hate and despisal.  We
have a clear and simple judgement of the Nazi government ready at hand,
but they did not. And they had the burden of an enormous responsability.
Rommel was no exception.

Rommel's reported reaction when he was informed of the plot to kill Hitler
is significant. He agreed with a military coup, but refused to support an
attempt to kill Hitler, saying that one should give him the opportunity to
resign first. But when admiral Ruge (I hope I have the name right) asked
whether he tought that Hitler would resign, Rommel answered that he was
certain that he wouldn't...

Finally, whether Rommel was a 'great captain' or not is truly unrelated
with the things he fought for. You can regret it, or think that it is a
good thing, but military talents are often unrelated with moral or
political greatness...

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 20:36:46 -0400
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Mr. Coatney's comments on Eisenhower

Ben, as an indication of how Stalin/Soviet Union felt about the Jews and
the holocaust, you can look to their action/inaction in Warsaw.
Basically, they waited until the Germans had liquidated the Jewish ghetto
before proceeding with their attack. In doing so, they basically let the
Germans do their dirty work for them.
The Soviets were also responsible for the liberation of all of the German
death camps. In their press releases at the time, they mentioned the
horrible conditions etc., and that there were significant numbers of
people killed, but they did not ever mention Jews. That was only to come
later.
In short, due to their wartime indifference to the plight of the Jews
which they, more than any other Allied power were in a position to
influence, I would have to conclude that the Soviet leaders could not
possibly have been provoked to retribution because of the holocaust. They
may, however, have used it as a convenient excuse when confronted by the
other Allied powers.
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 13 Sep 1994 02:57:17 +0200
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: "Holocaust"

On Mon, 12 Sep 1994, Patrick D Marsden wrote:

> On a slightly related note, In the book "U-977" the author, whose
> name I can't seem to remember right now, mentioned how his crew was
> aware of the "plan" by the allies to de-industrialize Germany and
> force it back to an agricultural society only.

Such plan did exist. It was named after a US under-secretary of something,
named Henry Morgenthau. It has later been claimed that it was actually the
work of a communist agent, White. The plan *was* accepted by the allied
leadership at first, but later abandoned.

An addition not-entirely-related-to-the-subject: Today, here in Belgium,
a book was published about a Russian resistance group that was active in
Belgium, to be more exact in Limburg. The first I hear of it...

These Russians were POWs that had been transported here by the Germans to
work in the coal mines (closed down a few years ago). Life in the mines
was not pleasant, and a number managed to escape. Partly because they well
aware that Stalin did not like prisoners, and they wanted to reestablish
their repuation as good Soviet citizens, they formed a resistance group.
After the war, those who returned to the USSR were sent to the gulags
nevertheless... (At least one stayed and was interviewed on television.
After fifty years in Limburg, he still has a horrible accent, but he made
it clear enough that he did not regret to have stayed.)

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 21:04:56 EDT
From:    Thomas Nephew <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Mr. Coatney's co...

I think Mr. Rising may be referring to the second Warsaw uprising (of late
July,1944), not the earlier one that was limited to the ghetto?  The Ghetto
uprising was largely unassisted by Poles, let alone Russians; the second one
was by the Polish Home Army in Warsaw, and was left unassisted by the
Russians, who pulled up short to let the non-Communist uprising get wiped
out.  They even refused to give Anglo/American air forces landing rights in
Soviet-held territory after proposed air supply to the Home Army.

I would agree, though, that Russian policy and soldiers were not motivated by
a desire to "get even" about the Holocaust, they were "getting even" about
the destruction of much of the Soviet Union.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 21:00:28 -0400
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: *Other* Holocausts, Mr. Weber

On Mon, 12 Sep 1994, Benjamin B. Weber wrote:
> "In scholarly usage the term
> "Holocaust" refers to the total, or near total destruction of a
> specifically targeted group.  In the context of Nazi persecution this
> included Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, Germans of African descent, Jehovah's
> Witnesses and in some cases the physically and mentally handicapped.

Actually, "holocaust" simply means a sacrifice on a large scale. Usually,
however, when we refer to _the_ Holocaust, we are referring to the
destruction of the European Jews. There were other groups also
persecuted, as you note, but no where close to the number of Jews (of
which 6 million is the generally accepted number). Most of the physically
and mentally handicapped were killed during the Nazi euthenaisa program,
before the destruction of the Jews began.
-deletions-

> that Auschwitz was somehow related to, or an extension of the Gulags is
> problematic.  They served the same function of providing a place to
> incarcerate political opponents.  However, Auschwitz had the added
> function of facilitating genocide.  I know of no similar intent on the
> part of the Soviets.  Neither Stalin's dekulakization policies nor his
> terror campaign against the Soviet citizens were genocidal.

To address the first point, Auschwitz was not really a place for
political opponents. They were largely sent to the Concentration Camps
within Germany (e.g. Dachau), and could often serve their time and be
released. Auschwitz (I assume we're talking about Birkenau), was an
extermination camp. The average life expectancy of those who were chosen
to stay and work in the factories/fields/etc was three months. Most
people, however, never even saw the barracks.
I would also have to take exception with the second point. Stalin's
policies _were_ genocidal. He may not have tried to systematically
exterminate a race like Hitler (although he may have, we'll have to wait
until the archives open up), but he was probably responsible for even
more deaths due to his policies. He even once said that he'd deport the
entire Ukraine if he had enough trains. He starved them all to death
instead. In fact, the Nazi-Soviet pact brought two very similar (although
ideologically different) men together. If they weren't both so
megalomaniacal, things may have looked _very_ different in the history
books.

David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 21:05:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 13 SEP 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
WEDNESDAY, 13 SEPTEMBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-6, North American Mustang
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 8 P-47s hit targets at Mawhun and
some of the fighter-bombers afterwards strafe targets of opportunity on the
Irrawaddy River from Katha to Shwegu; 8 others sweep the river between Bhamo
and Katha; 12 more hit targets along a road in the Kutkai area; large-scale
transport operations in the CBI continue.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): B-24s claim 3 cargo vessels sunk off the
Pescadores Islands near Formosa.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  AIRBORNE OPERATIONS (IX Troop Carrier Command): In France, C-47s fly
numerous supply and evacuation missions; and the 95th, 97th and 98th Troop
Carrier Squadrons, 440th Troop Carrier Group, move from Exeter, England to
Reims with C-47s.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 3 missions are flown.
  Mission 628: 1,015 bombers and 477 fighters attack oil and industrial
targets in S Germany by visual means; 15 bombers and 8 fighters are lost:
  1. 376 B-17s are dispatched to oil refineries at Stuttgart/Sindelfingen
(109) and Ludwigshafen (74); secondary targets hit are Darmstadt (95) and
Wiesbaden (8); targets of opportunity hit are Mainz (22), a marshalling yard
near Wiesbaden (12) and others (3); 4 B-17s are lost, 2 damaged beyond repair
and 134 damaged; 1 airman is KIA, 2 WIA and 37 MIA. Escort is provided by 73
of 74 P-47s, they claim 6-0-2 aircraft on the ground.
  2. 342 B-24s are dispatched to hit Schwabish Hall Airfield (65), a
munitions dump at Ulm (65) and Weissenhorn (45); a target of opportunity hit
is Reichelsheim (1); 4 B-24s are lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 127
damaged; 3 airman are WIA and 39 MIA. Escort is provided by 99 P-38s and
P-51s; they claim 14-0-5 aircraft on the ground; 2 P-51s are lost.
  3. 297 B-17s are dispatched to hit oil refineries at Merseburg (141) and
Lutzkendorf (77); targets of opportunity hit are Giessen (17), Eisenach (12),
Altenburg (7), Gera (7) and other (19); they claim 1-0-0 aircraft; 7 B-17s
are lost, 3 damaged beyond repair and 145 damaged; 4 airmen are KIA, 8 WIA
and 67 MIA. Escort is provided by 233 P-47s and P-51s; they claim 33-0-4
aircraft in the air; 6 P-51s are lost.
  Mission 629: 11 B-24s are dispatched on an Azon mission to the oil refinery
at Hemminstedt (6); 5 hit the secondary target, ammunition dumps at Kropp.
Escort is provided by 15 of 15 P-51s without loss.
  Mission 631: 8 of 8 B-17s drop leaflets on the Netherlands, Belgium and
Germany.
  73 of 74 B-17s, escorted by 63 P-51s, continuing the UK-USSR-Italy-UK
shuttle-bombing mission, take off from USSR bases, bomb steel and armament
works at Diosgyor, Hungary and proceed to Fifteenth AF bases in Italy.
  40 of 48 P-51s fly a strafing mission S of Munich hitting an aircraft
dispersal area, airfield and marshalling yard; they claim 5-0-0 aircraft on
the ground; 2 P-51s are lost.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, HQ XIX Tactical Air
Command accompanies HQ US Third Army HQ to ChaIons-sur-Marne; B-26s fly a
leaflet mission to coastal N France and Belgium; fighters support ground
forces in the Brest and Nancy-Metz areas (air-ground coordination being
especially effective between XIX Tactical Air Command and French 2d Armored
Division in defeating the enemy move on Vittel), and in Germany, fly armed
reconnaissance over the Cologne, Aachen, Koblenz, Linz/Rhine, and Wahn areas;
the XIX Tactical Air Command inaugurates a rail cutting campaign; HQ 97th
Combat Bombardment Wing (Medium) moves from Little Walden, England to
Voisenon; HQ 404th Fighter Group and the 508th and 509th Fighter Squadrons
move from Bretigny to Juvincourt with P-47s; the 162d Tactical Reconnaissance
Squadron, 363d Tactical Reconnaissance Group, moves from Azeville to
Montrevil with F-6s; and the 392d Fighter Squadron, 367th Fighter Group,
moves from Pera to Clastres with P-38s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 350+ fighter-escorted B-17s and
B-24s bomb targets in Czechoslovakia, Germany, Italy, and Poland; B-17s hit
Blechhamer N oil refinery; B-24s hit the oil refinery at Odertal, Germany
and, in Poland, the Auschwitz oil and rubber works and the Cracow-Auschwitz
area, and bomb the marshalling yard at Vrutky, Czechoslovakia.  In Italy,
100+ B-24s attack the Avisio viaduct, and Mezzocorona and Ora railroad
bridges.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s destroy a bridge
at Peschiera del Garda, cutting the Milan-Verona line; B-25s and B-26s bomb
guns and defensive positions N of Florence; fighter-bombers attack railroads,
rolling stock, and bridges in N Italy, although a heavy overcast hampers
operations in the NW.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): Saipan Island-based P-47s hit buildings on
Pagan Island with rockets and machinegun fire. B-24s on armed reconnaissance,
snooper, and training missions bomb Iwo Jima, Marcus, and Pagan Islands.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: B-24s and B-25s hit
4 airfields and bomb villages on Morotai Island. In New Guinea, B-25s hit
Langgoer Airfield while A-20s and fighter-bombers hit 2 airfields on Efman
Island; A-20s, B-25s, and fighter-bombers hit Babo AA positions and airfields
at Manokwari and Ransiki; HQ Thirteenth AF moves from Los Negros Island to
Hollandia.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

13/0108Z SEP

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 21:10:44 -0500
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [INF] USAAF 13 Sep 44

What is an Azon mission?  I'm afraid I came in on the middle of the movie
and am not familiar with it.
Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 22:13:27 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: THANKS

Ben Frank commented,...
>
>Thanks, Alan. The cigar arrived today and I look forward to lighting up after
>dinner. That was some jacket the owner of The Bag Piper wears in that picture.
>The shamrock on his lapel gives him away. Cheers to the new lad. Ben Frank

I'm glad it arrived intact. I have enjoyed the chance to celebrate my son's
birth with a few online. Semper fi. -Al

Alan G. Wild
Admin. Computing
University of Rhode Island
Kingston, R.I.  02881

I am the NRA.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 22:32:51 -0400
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hist: Use of term "Holocaust"

On Mon, 12 Sep 1994, Warren Thompson wrote:

> I am not aware that Hitler came to power with any reference to exterminating
> Poles, Romani, blacks, et al., [though he clearly thought them inferior] but
> he did make reference to the use of "Giftgas" against the Jews in MEIN KAMPF.
> (At the same time, this is not necessarily to claim that genocide against any
> ethnic/racial group was in the cards from the very beginning, say, in 1933.)
>
> Reactions?

Warren, this is a huge area you're opening up (i.e. did Hitler intend to
exterminate the Jews from as early as 1933 or earlier, or was it a
function of the war). Try Lucy Dawidowicz _The War Against the Jews
1933-1945_ for the former opinion, and Karl Schleunes _The Twisted Road
to Auschwitz: Nazi Policy Toward German Jews 1933-1939_ for the latter.
Christopher Browning has also written several books to support the latter
thesis (which I am also inclined to believe).  There are _many_ others,
but you should get a good perspective (just enough to thoroughly
confuse you :-)) from these.
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 21:55:24 CDT
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Japanese sailors

The Yamato carried rafts- I believe I have on-deck pictures of her with them.
The Japanese would have saved their sailors to fight again; why the assumption
that only the enemy could pick them up? Numerous men were taken off the
burning carriers at Midway by small boats, as were the Emperor's pictures
on each vessel. As for pilots, is it true that all aircrew were not
equipped with parachutes? I seem to recall seeing men with chutes climbing
into Kates in the actual or (Japanese 1942) reenactment footage of Pearl
Harbor. And what of bomber crews?

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 22:04:07 CDT
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Mr. Coatney's comments on Eisenhower

Dear David,

I think you may be confusing two events. The Warsaw Ghetto rising
was in March 1943, at a time when no Russian forces were in a position
to help it. The timing of this rising was dictated by the Germans,
who made it clear they were about to liquidate the ghetto. In June?
1944 the Polish Home Army revolted, attempting to establish a Polish
liberation of Warsaw before the rapidly approaching Red Army could
claim the honor. I think the RA was only fifty or so miles from the
city as the Germans crushed the uprising in a month long battle.
This has generally been interpreted in the west as a deliberate
reticence by Stalin, to allow "his" Polish government to take over,
while the Germans eliminated his opposition. I am sure this certainly
entered Stalin's thinking, but if you look at the pattern of operations
and logistics in the Red Army during the last half of the war in the
east, there may have been sound military reasons as well.

Otherwise, your comments re the Soviets and the Jewish issue are totally
correct. I believe I made the point earlier on this list that they
apparently kept back all liberated Jewish-American PoWs from camps
in eastern Germany, as well as those with Slavic last names.

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 23:06:55 -0400
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Mr. Coatney's co...

On Mon, 12 Sep 1994, Thomas Nephew wrote:

> I think Mr. Rising may be referring to the second Warsaw uprising (of late
> July,1944), not the earlier one that was limited to the ghetto?  The Ghetto
> uprising was largely unassisted by Poles, let alone Russians; the second one
> was by the Polish Home Army in Warsaw, and was left unassisted by the
> Russians, who pulled up short to let the non-Communist uprising get wiped
> out.  They even refused to give Anglo/American air forces landing rights in
> Soviet-held territory after proposed air supply to the Home Army.

You're right Thomas, I got to typing too quickly for my brain to catch
up. You said it correctly above. Cheers,
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 20:22:14 -0700
From:    Gerry Walker <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HIST: Female Nazis

So, why does the name Irma Grise (sp.) come to mind when I think of the Bitch
of Belsen?

Cheers,

Gerry

[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 20:34:18 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Essex-class carriers

Jorge Merino wrote:

>Isn't CV-41 Midway scheduled to become Training carrier, I think, after
>CV-43 Coral Sea has completed her turn?

Pure speculation on my part, but from the ground looking up at Midway, I
don't see how she will ever move again on her own power, at least not soon.

John Riegsecker                                 (206) 756-3566
Dept of Math and Computer Science               [email-masked]
University of Puget Sound

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 22:28:53 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hist: Use of term "Holocaust":  Poles *not* "primary victims"?

Warren,

     Interesting point worthy of fair consideration, but I don't
see why only those specifically targetted in the prewar MEIN KAMPF
should be considered the "primary victims" eligible to use the word
"Holocaust," since the exterminations really only got going after
the ("Wannasee"?) conference in 1942.  My understanding is that the
Nazis eventually/ultimately intended to exterminate the Poles
completely, with a few "Aryan-type" exemptions.

     The Poles lost 6 *million* people to the Nazis and nearly a
million to the Soviets -- about a quarter of a million were freed
by Stalin in 1942-43.  That is a "holocaust" by any measure.

     The Jews may have been ahead of the Poles in the extermination
line -- half the 6 million exterminated Poles were virtually all the
Polish Jews -- but substantial numbers of Poles did survive only
because the Nazis ran out of time.

Lou Coatney
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 22:43:29 CDT
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hist: Use of term "Holocaust"

Sorry, David, this letter came in while I was writing the last one.

Have to disagree about the Holocaust being a function of the war.
>From what I understand, it rests on two points: that the extermination
camps weren't set up as such until the winter of 1941, when it became
clear to the Germans they were in for a protracted war in the East,
and that the final decisions weren't made until after Pearl Harbor
and a totally new strategic picture. Each of these elements is wrong.
The mass exterminations in Russia began within weeks of the German
invasion, by 4 specially created Einsatzgruppen that followed the
front specifically for this purpose. They had been established the
previous March and so far as I am aware were included in the planning
of Barbarossa from the beginning. All this at a time when the Germans
fully expected Barbarossa to be over by October. In fact, by that
date, these units had already killed between 1.25 and 1.5 million
Jews, if I'm not mistaken.

The Pearl Harbor question relates to the date of the Wansee Conference,
which was in either late December 1941 or early January 1942, and was
the point when the entire German government was brought in on the
"Final Solution." In fact, this conference had been scheduled for
November 1941, and was postponed for administrative reasons. In any
case, the planning in specific agencies and departments certainly               preceded it.

While on the subject, how about an attempt to define a genocide?
I'd offer three conditions:
  1. An entire class of people, defined under conditions (birth
     characteristics, physical characteristics, irreversible
     attainment, such as education) that they cannot escape by
     conversion, lack of participation, etc.
  2. A systematic attempt to hunt down and exterminate all members of
     that class, with few or no exceptions.
  3. Dedication of state apparatus and resources to this end as a
     major goal of state policy, especially if it occurs under
     conditions of national stress, such as a war for survival
     that could see the resources better used elsewhere.
I would add a fourth condition, lack of justification for singling
out the targeted group, but this is a very thorny wicket. Under                 these terms, I would have to include only Jews and Gypsies
under the Nazis, and educated Cambodians under the Khmer Rouge.
The Armenian question troubles me, but I've read a lot on Turkish
history in WWI, and have the feeling this situation is more complex
than advocates of either side are willing to admit. Sorry Lou, but
as far as I can see, everybody else had an out.

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 12 Sep 1994 22:41:12 -0500
From:    "Louis R. Coatney" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Point of information on the Warsaw Ghetto for David Rising

David,

     The Warsaw Ghetto was exterminated by the Nazis in April
1943 -- about the time of the Nazis' revelations of the Katyn
Massacre.  (The timing did not help the Poles questions about
the Soviets, since it was the Nazis providing them the evidence.)

     It was August-October(?) 1944, during the Warsaw Uprising,
when the Soviets sat by and let the SS exterminate Polish Home
Army (*and* indigenous Communist) insurrectors who might have
otherwise complicated the postwar Soviet occupation/subjugation
of Poland.

     The Soviets always kept "the endgame" -- as we say in chess
-- in mind, realizing its outcome can be determined in much
earlier phases.

     You've got to give the Soviets credit, as brutally crude as
they may seem, they were uncannily cunning and successful in
achieving their ends.  They never lost sight of their longterm
priorities -- much like Chiang Kai Shek maneuvering during his/
our war against the Japanese for *his* endgame against the
Chicoms.

     The Soviets have/had my profound respect and, occasionally,
admiration.

Lou Coatney
[email-masked]

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 11 Sep 1994 to 12 Sep 1994
*************************************************