Subject: WWII-L Digest - 20 Oct 1994 to 21 Oct 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 1994 00:04:05 -0400

There are 35 messages totalling 1434 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. INF: USN Chronology 10-21-94
  2. WEAP:  CVE-9  USS Bogue (2)
  3. INF: 50 Years Ago - 22-OCT-1944
  4. "Dumb Luck" in the Phillipines
  5. D-Day loose talk
  6. GEN: QUERY OF BORIS RAYMOND (2)
  7. Midway & Luck (2)
  8. Homefront: US: Hollywood during WWII (2)
  9. TRIV: Helmet Straps
 10. Request for WWII letters, diaries, photos
 11. RE2: USS Bogue
 12. WEAP:V2 (3)
 13. Thanks to all...
 14. <No subject given> (2)
 15. HIST: V2 and von Braun (4)
 16. MEDIA: Philippines
 17. Untold Stories f/ABTF, Pt. 8
 18. bookstores (2)
 19. MIDWAY & LUCK
 20. [INF] USAAF 22 OCT 44
 21. QUES: troopships
 22. TAC: RN Torpedo Attacks
 23. Churchill's bad decisions (from Economic Causes of the
 24. Home Front

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 21 Oct 1994 04:00:12 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 10-21-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
10/21 Sat. Carrier-based aircraft (Rear Adm. G. F. Bogan) attack
           Panay, Cebu, Negros, and Masbate, P. I.
            United States naval vessels damaged, Leyte area, P.
             I.:
             Transport WARHAWK (AP-168), by collision,
              10 d. 57'N., 125 d. 02'E.
             LST 269, LST 483, LST 486, and LST 704, by coastal
              mortars,
              10 d. 50'N., 125 d. 25'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: Larry Jewell <[email-masked]>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 21 Oct 1994 07:01:45 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP:  CVE-9  USS Bogue

     *** NOTE: Another source of information on the CVEs is:

          The Little Giants
          U.S. Escort Carriers against Japan

          By: William T. Y'Blood
          Published by Naval Institute Press ($ 14.95)

From: Dictionary of American Fighting Ships, Vol. I, 1964, Navy
Department, Office of the Chief of Naval Operations, Naval History
Division, Washington, D.C.

BOGUE (CVE-9)

dp. 7800;
l. 495' 8";
b. 111' 6";
dr. 26';
s. 18 k.;
cpl. 890;
a. 2 5";
cl. BOGUE

BOGUE was originally classified AVG-9, but was changed to ACV-9, 20
August 1942; CVE-9, 15 July 1943; and CVHE-9, 12 June 1955.  She was
launched 15 January 1942 by Seattle-Tacoma Shipbuilding Co., Tacoma,
Wash., under a Maritime Commission contract; sponsored by Mrs. W.
Miller, Jr., wife of Lieutenant Commander Miller; transferred to the
Navy 1 May 1942; and commissioned 26 September 1942, Captain G. E. Short
in command.

After an extensive shakedown and repair period BOGUE joined the Atlantic
Fleet in February 1943 as the nucleus of the pioneer American anti-
submarine hunter-killer group.  During March and April 1943 she made
three North Atlantic crossings but sank no submarines.  She departed on
her fourth crossing 22 April and got her first submarine 22 May when her
aircraft sank U-569 in 50-40 N., 35-21 W.  During her fifth North
Atlantic cruise her planes sank two German submarines: U-217 in 30-18
N., 42-50 W., 5 June and U-118 in 30-49 N., 33-49 W., 12 June.  On 23
July 1943, during her seventh patrol, her planes sank U-527 in 35-25 N.,
27-56 W.  GEORGE E. BADGER (DD-196), of her screen, sank U-613 during
this patrol.

BOGUE's eighth patrol was her most productive with three German
submarines sunk: U-86 by planes, 29 November 1943 in 39-33 N., 19-01 W.;
U-172 by planes, GEORGE E. BADGER, DUPONT (DD-152), CLEMSON (DD-186),
and OSMOND INGRAM (DD-255), 13 December in 26-19 N., 29-58 W.; and U-850
by planes, 20 December in 32-54 N., 37-01 W.

BOGUE had a break from her anti-submarine operations during January and
February 1944 when she carried a cargo of Army fighters to Glasgow,
Scotland.  The carrier then returned to her anti-submarine role and on
13 March her aircraft teamed with British planes, HAVERFIELD (DE-393),
HOBSON (DD-464), and HMCS PRINCE RUPERT to sink U-575 in 46-18 N., 27-34
W.

On 5 May 1944 BOGUE and her escorts departed Hampton Roads, Va., for a
cruise that netted two more submarines and lasted until 2 July.  FRANCIS
M. ROBINSON (DE-220), of the screen, sank the Japanese RO-501 (ex-German
U-1224) on 13 May and BOGUE's planes sank the Japanese I-52 in 15-16 N.,
39-55 W., on 24 June.  During the next cruise, 24 July-24 September
1944, BOGUE's planes sank another German submarine, U-1229, 20 August in
42-20 N., 51-39 W.

Following her return in September 1944 BOGUE operated on training
missions out of Bermuda and Quonset Point, R. I., until February 1945
when she made a trip to Liverpool, England, with Army planes.  In April
1945 she put to sea again as an anti-submarine vessel, forming part of
Captain G. J. Dufek's Second Barrier Force.  On 24 April success came to
FLAHERTY (DE-135), NEUNZER (DE-150), CHATELAIN (DE-149), VARIAN (DE-
798), HUBBARD (DE-211), JANSSEN (DE-396), PILLSBURY (DE-133), and KEITH
(DE-241) sank U-546.  This was the last of 13 submarines sunk by BOGUE
or her escorts.

With the war in the Atlantic over, BOGUE moved to the Pacific, arriving
at San Diego 3 July 1945.  She then steamed westward to Guam, arriving
24 July.  She made a trip to Adak, Alaska, (19 August-6 September 1945),
and then joined the "Magic-Carpet" fleet returning servicemen from the
Pacific islands.  She was placed out of commission in reserve 30
November 1946 at Tacoma, Wash.

BOGUE received a Presidential Unit Citation and three battle stars for
her World War II service.

Steve L. New
[email-masked]
Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 21 Oct 1994 04:31:25 -0700
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 22-OCT-1944

On 22-OCT-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The Canadian 4th Armoured Division reaches Esschen; while the
Canadian 3rd Division takes Breskens. In the British 3nd Army sector, the XII
Corps starts an offensive east of the Meuse. The 15th Division heads for
Tilburg, while the 7th Armoured and 53rd Divisions head for 's Hertogenbosch.

Eastern Front - Heavy German resistance stops the armies of the 1st Baltic
Front and 3rd Belorussian Front in front of Insterburg in east Prussia.

Italian Front - Allied movements are hampered by persistent rain. Units of the
Canadian I Corps capture Cervia and Pisignano, on the Adriatic coast.

Philippines - The 1st Cavalry Division mops up the village of Tacloban. The
24th Infantry Division captures the area of Pawing. Further south near Dulag,
the 96th Infantry Division recapture the positions across the river Labiranan
lost yesterdy.

The Homefront
-------------
Food Shipments - The War Food Administration announces that 541,872,551 pounds
of food and agricultural products were shipped to the Allies under Lend-Lease
in September.

Pro Football - Washington 17, Brooklyn 14; Philadelphia 38, Boston 0; Green
Bay 30, Cleveland 21.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "Facts On File Yearbook 1944,
Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.netcom.com in directory /pub/jbd and can
be accessed via the WWW by URL: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/jbd/ww2.html. If you
have difficulty accessing the Netcom FTP server, please keep trying because it
stays very busy.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis     [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 21 Oct 1994 08:02:22 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: "Dumb Luck" in the Phillipines

     I was, perhaps, too unkind to Admiral Kurita in my last Taffy-3 post.
     I've been checking up on the trials he faced while in the Phillipines,
     and against these, his decision appears more understandable.

     1.  At approximately 05:00 HR, 22 October 1944, Admiral Kurita's fleet
     was ambushed by the submarines USS Dace and USS Darter.  Within 5
     minutes he loses 3 heavy cruisers.  Takao is damaged and forced to
     return to friendly waters, Maya is sunk, and Admiral Kurita's
     flagship, Atago, burns so rapidly that Kurita and his staff have to
     dive into the ocean.  This drenching aggravates the dengue fever
     infection that the Admiral had been suffering from.

     2.  Responding to sighting reports from Darter, Task Force 38 sends no
     less than five separate air strikes against Kurita between 10:30 HR
     and sunset.

          a.  Although urgently requested, Kurita can get no air cover for
     his fleet, either carrier or land based.

          b.  As a result of these 5 strikes, Yamato, the Admirals new
     flagship takes two bomb hits, the Battleship Nagato loses a turret,
     ans the unsinkable Mushashi, sister ship to Yamato, takes a total of
     17 bomb and 19 torpedo strikes before she finally sinks.

     3.  It is at this point that Kurita, devoid of air cover, unaware of
     the positions of the American and Japanese fleets, and still in radio
     silence, first decides to turn home.

     4.  Later Kurita has a change of heart, and returns to the SHO-1
     battle plan.  At the time he meets Taffy-3 he still doesn't know where
     the US Fast Carrier Strike Force is.  For all he knows, Taffy-3s
     planes are just the first strike from TF-38, with hours more of the
     same to come.  It's hard to blame him for deciding to go home, even
     though the entire SHO-1 plan would have been vindicated if only Yamato
     had made it into the anchorage at Leyte.

     Changing the subject slightly:

     I've often wondered why Hollywood hasn't made an epic film covering
     the battle for the Phillipines.  You've got enough air/sea battle
     going on to rival both Tora! Tora! Tora! and Midway together.  In the
     Marianas Turkey Shoot you have more dogfighting than in the Battle of
     Britain, there is enough ship to ship action out in Suribao Straight
     to cover the Graf Spee and Sink the Bismark, you've got a counterpoint
     with Doug McArthur's landings to equal The Longest Day, and I don't
     believe that there's anything on film today that quite covers the
     desperation, courage, and combat seamanship demonstrated by the
     officers and crews of Taffy-3.

Steve L. New
[email-masked]
Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 21 Oct 1994 11:25:10 GMT
From:    Jim Auld <[email-masked]>
Subject: D-Day loose talk

I came across this intriguing story recently.  Anyone know what happened to this
guy?
The story appeared in the New York Herald Tribune on June 8, 1944.
Datelined Washington and headlined "General Broken For Loose Talk On
D-Day Date" it says: "Major General Henry Jervis Friese Miller,
commanding general of the 9th Air Force Service Command, has been demoted
from his temporary rank to his permanent rank of lieutenant colonel and returned to
to this country for talking loosely of the approximate date of the
invasion at a London cocktail party several weeks ago, the War
Department announced today."
--
Jim Auld

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 21 Oct 1994 15:55:40 +0200
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Subject: GEN: QUERY OF BORIS RAYMOND

  October 21, 1994

  FOR BORIS RAYMOND

  What unit were you in during the German Ardennes offensive?

  Regards, John Ausland/Oslo Norway

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 21 Oct 1994 10:27:23 CCS
From:    Jorge Merino <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP:  CVE-9  USS Bogue

Steve,

Excellent story about USS Bogue. I have a question:

> BOGUE was originally classified AVG-9, but was changed to ACV-9, 20
> August 1942; CVE-9, 15 July 1943; and CVHE-9, 12 June 1955.

.... lines deleted ....

> With the war in the Atlantic over, BOGUE moved to the Pacific, arriving
> at San Diego 3 July 1945.  She then steamed westward to Guam, arriving
> 24 July.  She made a trip to Adak, Alaska, (19 August-6 September 1945),
> and then joined the "Magic-Carpet" fleet returning servicemen from the
> Pacific islands.  She was placed out of commission in reserve 30
> November 1946 at Tacoma, Wash.

Ok, since USS Bogue was put in reserve 30 November 1946, and redesignated
CVHE-9 12 June 1955, I would like to know how long had she remained in
reserve status? What happened finally to this carrier? Is she still afloat?
Another question: in CVHE, what does the "H" stand for? (Helicopter?)

I know some CVE's were used either as aircraft transports (carrying F-84's,
F-86's), or escort carriers (with F4U Corsairs, AD Skyraiders, etc) during
the Korean conflict.

Jorge Merino

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 21 Oct 1994 10:05:45 -0500
From:    John Lundstrom <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Midway & Luck

Determining the role of Miles Browning in the victory at Midway is far
from simple. The commonly held belief that Browning talked Spruance out of
waiting two hours to launch the initial strike on 4 June 1942 is in error.
It originated primarily from S.E. Morison not understanding that during the
battle the carrier forces operated under Zone plus 10 ten time, which is two
hours later than Midway local time (Zone plus 12). Thus all the original
documents from Task Forces 16 (ENTERPRISE, HORNET) and 17 (YORKTOWN) record
their times two hours later than what is shown in the history books. Thus
the beginning of the launch of the great USN carrier strike by TF-16 was
0900 (by Z+10, used by the carriers), but 0700 (Z+12, Midway local time).

        After the battle the initial Office of Naval Intelligence Combat
Narrative on Midway (1943) and the 1948 War College Analysis converted all
times to Midway local (Zone plus 12). Since they were Morison's main
sources, he used Zone plus 12 time as well. However he did consult the
TF-16 War Diary which states that the intention was to launch at 0900 and
steam to within 100 miles of the enemy. He forgot to convert the 0900 to
0700 and thought Spruance was intending on delaying the launch two hours,
which he certainly never did.

        This shows how even superb historians like Morison can
unintentionally mess up the historical record and why no history is ever the
last word.

        If anyone is interested in my opinion of Frank Jack Fletcher and
Ray Spruance at Midway, please contact me by e-mail and I'll go into more
detail.

                John Lundstrom       [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 21 Oct 1994 10:45:42 -0500
From:    Michael D Wallick <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Homefront: US: Hollywood during WWII

On Wed, 19 Oct 1994, William Lippert wrote:

> This is a general question I have to all the readers.  The baseball trivia
> was interesting and brings to mind a two hour special I saw a few weeks
> ago on the American Movie Classics channel.  It was about Hollywood's role
> in the war.  Hollywood put on some good shows, did some of the USO stuff,
> and raised (or so it claimed) 1/3 of all war bond money through autograph
> signing fests, kissing booths, etc.  But many famous people even served
> in active combat.  I would like to know if there were any people of
> public fame not originally connected to the federal government (actors,
> writers, etc.) who were killed in action.  How did the country react
> if this happened?
>
> Thanks,
> William Lippert
> The American University
>
Glenn Miller.  On December 15, 1944, Glenn Miller flew from England to
Paris to make arrangements for his upcoming tour.  When his plane failed
to arrive in Paris,  Miller was officially reported missing in action on
December 23, 1944.  According evidence revealed in the late 1980's, he
may have been the victim of friendly fire.  On December 15, 1944, 150
Lancaster bombers were returning from an aborted raid on Germany.  In
accordance with standard procedures, the crews dropped their bombs near
Beachy Head on the southern coast of England.  As the bombs exploded,
crewmembers reported seeing a Norseman fall into the sea, apparently
downed by shock waves.

Carol Lombard.  Although not in the military, Lombard, the wife of
Clark Gable, was killed in a plane crash in 1942 near Las Vegas,
Nevada.  She was returning to California from Indianapolis where she
had raised $2,000,000 in war bonds.  Her death stunned millions of fans
and left Gable emotionally crushed for years.  In a telegraph to Gable,
President Roosevelt wrote that Lombard "brought great joy to all who knew
her and to millions who knew her only as a great artist.  She is and
always will be a star, one we shall never forget nor cease to be
grateful to."

Sources:
Gustaitis, Joseph.  "Glenn Miller."  AMERICAN HISTORY, December 1994:
31-39.

Katz, Ephraim.  THE FILM ENCYCLOPEDIA.  New York: Thomas Y. Crowell,
Publishers, 1979.

Michael Wallick

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 21 Oct 1994 08:51:34 -0800
From:    Yarbrough James L <[email-masked]>
Subject: TRIV: Helmet Straps

My father served in the South Pacific and when I asked him about his helmet
strap he said they didn't strap them normally because it was hot and the strap
chafed and led to such wonderful things as "jungle rot or some such".

Not a thing to do about your head being blown off, just  a creature comfort.

A slightly different view,
Jim

[email-masked]

New rules adopted by the agency require me to state that all my opinions are
mine, not that anybody else would want them, and not to hold the State of
Oregon or anybody else responsible.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 21 Oct 1994 11:52:48 -0400
From:    Mike Bechthold <[email-masked]>
Subject: Request for WWII letters, diaries, photos

No Price Too High
Canadians and the Second World War
Television Series

Request for WWII letters, diaries, photos

Do you have memories of the Second World War tucked away in a
drawer?  Producers of No Price Too High, a television series on
Canadians and the Second World War, are searching for first-hand
accounts that date from that period.

Because No Price Too High is based on such documents, its
producers are actively soliciting letters, diaries, photographs,
audio recordings and film footage written or made during the
years 1938 to 1945, covered by the series.  Selected documents
will be used to tell the story of the Second World War from the
viewpoint of a representative cross section of Canadians whose
lives were deeply touched by the events of those momentous years.
An example would be correspondence between a serviceman overseas
and his parents or wife back in Canada.

Anybody with information regarding such letters, diaries,
photographs or private audio records or film footage, or who has
access to such documents, is asked to contact the Research Office
of No Price Too High, 95 Penetang Street, Orillia, Ontario, L3V
3N4.  The no charge long-distance telephone number from anywhere
in Canada in 1 (800) 524-3528.  Outside Canada call (705) 325-
8463.  The fax number is (705) 325-5596.  All original material
forwarded to this address will be returned.  Please consider
sending photocopies.  Information or submissions would be
appreciated by 15 November 1994.

No Price Too High will make available to all Canadians an
accurate, moving account of Canada's contribution to victory in
the Second World War, covering all services and all phases of the
war effort, at home as well as abroad.  No Price Too High will be
broadcast nationally on television in the Fall of 1995, and it
will be available subsequently for educational and home use on
video cassette.

The television production company making No Price Too High,
Norflicks Productions Limited, recently produced "Battle Diary: a
day in the life of Charlie Martin", an emotionally evocative and
intimate one-hour documentary aired the evening of June 6, 1994
on CBC for the 50th Anniversary of the Canadian landing in
Normandy.

A comprehensive and accurate perspective of Canadian involvement
in the Second World War is assured by the participation of the No
Price Too High Foundation and its Advisory Board.  Membership on
the Board includes its Chairman, Honourable Barnett J. Danson,
Honourable Alastair Gillespie, Honourable Willard Z. Estey, St.
Clair Balfour, BGEN Denis Whitaker, Robert G. Dale and Honourable
Hartland de M. Molson.

For more information contact:
Anderson Charters
Susan Charters
1 (800) 524-3528 (in Canada)
(705) 325-8463

Replies through the internet can be sent to:
Mike Bechthold
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 21 Oct 1994 12:53:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Homefront: US: Hollywood during WWII

Michael Wallick writes:

 >Glenn Miller.  On December 15, 1944, Glenn Miller flew from England to
 >Paris to make arrangements for his upcoming tour.  When his plane failed
 >to arrive in Paris,  Miller was officially reported missing in action on
 >December 23, 1944.  According evidence revealed in the late 1980's, he
 >may have been the victim of friendly fire.  On December 15, 1944, 150
 >Lancaster bombers were returning from an aborted raid on Germany.  In
 >accordance with standard procedures, the crews dropped their bombs near
 >Beachy Head on the southern coast of England.  As the bombs exploded,
 >crewmembers reported seeing a Norseman fall into the sea, apparently
 >downed by shock waves.

It have read that every USAAF aircraft was grounded in England that
morning becuase of weather yet a Noorduyn UC-64 Norseman, with a
Flight Officer as pilot, took off with one of the most famous
American musicians aboard.  Strange.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 21 Oct 1994 13:04:41 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: RE2: USS Bogue

     > I would like to know how long had she remained in reserve status?

          About 9 years, I'd guess.

     > What happened finally to this carrier? Is she still afloat?

          I really don't know.  I don't write these, I'm simply sharing
     information that I've found elsewhere.  Perhaps someone else on the
     list can fill this in.

     > Another question: in CVHE, what does the "H" stand for?
     (Helicopter?)

          Yes, exactly.  Some of the CVE's were brought out of retirement
     to prove out the USMC role in vertical envelopment.  Wait for it,
     there are more ships to come.

    Steve L. New
    [email-masked]
    Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 21 Oct 1994 10:10:02 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Midway & Luck

John

>        If anyone is interested in my opinion of Frank Jack Fletcher and
>Ray Spruance at Midway, please contact me by e-mail and I'll go into more
>detail.
>
>                John Lundstrom       [email-masked]

I don't know if you meant off-line or not, but I for one would be very
interested in this, particulary as it concerns Frank Jack Fletcher.
Although he has some defenders, I think his detractors out number them by a
lot.

John Riegsecker                                 (206) 756-3566
Dept of Math and Computer Science               [email-masked]
University of Puget Sound

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 21 Oct 1994 13:22:00 -0400
From:    chris garcia <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP:V2

I'm not sure of the blast area of the V2 was exactly, although it could
obilterate a large building and possibly a whole block.  The V2 would not
have changed the outcome of the war, and in fact was an obstacle to the
germans far more than the allies:
   Hitler's generals by 1944 were on the defensive, especially after the
invasion of Normandy.  They clamoured for defenisve weapons and tactics
to hold off the growing onslaught on men and material coming form the
United States and Russia, overwhelming their defenses on all fronts.
Hitler was consumed by a very personal hatred of the allies, and a
pathological desire for revenge.  the "V" in V2 actually stands for the
german word for "vengence".  These were amoung an arsenal of "vergence"
weapons.  The V2 was strictly an offensive weapon, used at a time when
Germany should have been defending itself and fighting for time to
negotiate some kind of peace treaty.  Hitler wanted only to attack-attack
and attack, and this emotional and tactically weak approach caused him to
squander lives and ordanance on a war he was no longer capable of
winning.  The V2 was an extremely complex and expensive weapon to build,
useful for one strike only on civilian targets, unreliable and of
virtually no consequence in changing the direction of the war.  The cost
of one V2 missle would have bought several anti-aircraft batteries or
interceptor fighters.
   The final value of the V2 is that it pioneered the way for the space
age of ICBM's which evetually were used for space travel.  It is
interesting to note that the inventor of the V2- Werner Von Braun-
dispised Hitler and was eager for the allies to take over Peenemude
Island where the V2's developed.  He was marked for death by the Gestapo
but managed to escape with a broken arm when he was gratefully captured
by the americans.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 21 Oct 1994 12:47:24 -0500
From:    Cheryl Kaye Bryant <[email-masked]>
Subject: Thanks to all...

Thanks to all listmembers who forwarded the German post on Romania to
me.  I don't usually delete things I plan to read later, but this time I
did and I am grateful to all who took the time to send me the post.

C.K. Bryant

*******************************************************************
"The Riskier the road, the greater the profit."    / C.K. Bryant
        The 62nd Rule of Acquisition               / W.I.U. English
*******************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 21 Oct 1994 18:54:34 +0100
From:    Wojciech Borczyk <[email-masked]>
Subject: <No subject given>

  I subscribed the WWII discussion list not long ago and I think it's
the reason that I have never read any presentations about the war in
Poland in September 1939 (a real outcome of WWII). I live in Poland
and I think, that I can write a little bit about it.
  Because particularly I am interested in Polish Armed Forces combat
vehicles which were in use at the beginning of the WWII - first I
decided to write about cars, motorcycles and other vehicles ( also
prototypes ) which took part in the fighting during " The Polish
September".
  One of the most popular Polish military motorcycles was the model
CWS M111 ( also called "Sokol 1000", "Sokol" means a falcon in Polish).
CWS M111 was designed by the Polish engineer Zygmunt Okolow in 1931.
The first prototypes were built in 1932. "Sokol" had a 1000 ccm,
two-cylinder V-engine. The overall design was very similiar to
the Harley-Davidson motorcycles. Some prototype off-road versions
( with a side-car and a two-wheel drive ) were also produced.
The total number of the motorcycles produced till September 1939
didn't exceed 3400. Nowadays, Sokol 1000 is a big rarity for collectors.
  Another vehicle I want to write about is PF 508 III "Lazik". It was
an off-road car ( based on a popular passenger car PF 508, produced
under the license of FIAT ), with either 4x2 or 4x4 drive. The
production of "Lazik" ("a vagabond" in Polish) started in 1936.
The total number of produced cars is unknown. As far as I know, there
is the only one car which survived the war. It is now being renovated
by a group of enthousiasts from Poznan Automobilclub.
  Probably, many Polish military vehicles could be found in Rumania.
When the Germans occupied the majority of Poland some Polish troops
crossed the Rumanian and Hungarian borders and most of them were
interned there. One of them was the 10th Motorized Brigade.
All equipment, of course, has been lost. Some part of the Polish
military equipment was later redistributed by the Germans to
their new allies (for example Rumania and Hungary). I have heard about
some very rare vehicles which were in use in Rumania many years after
the end of the WWII.
  On the other hand, a significant number of the Polish military
vehicles was taken away by the Soviet army after 17th September 1939
( when the Soviets crossed Polish eastern border and occupied the
eastern part of Poland ).
 I hope that I haven't bored anybody. By the way, I have a question
to everybody who could help me. I have some old-timer vehicles, among
other - an American jeep ( Willys model MB, serial number 185045,
date of delivery 29 October 1942 ). I would like to get some
information about it's history, about it's previous owners, how and
when it was brought to Poland. I suppose that it was either used by
the Soviet Army in 1944-45, or shipped to Poland after the war by
UNRRA ( United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration ).
Many war-time jeeps were used after the war by the Polish Army,
the police and private owners, but their history in most cases is
completely unknown and very difficult to recover. It is meaningful
that Soviets and communists didn't talk too much about the origin
of some vehicles. I met people in the Soviet Union ( it's the
truth ! ) who still believe that jeeps were produced in S.U., not
in the United States ! ( I have heard a funny story about soviet
soldier, who tried to explain the meaning of the letters "U.S.A"
painted on the car as "Ubit' Svolocha Adolfa" - To kill f... Adolf!)

*********************************************************************
*                        Wojciech Borczyk,                          *
*         Astronomical Observatory of Adam Miciewicz University,    *
*                        Poznan, POLAND                             *
*                e-mail [email-masked]                        *
*********************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 21 Oct 1994 19:58:26 +0300
From:    Ozgur Altinyay <[email-masked]>
Subject: <No subject given>

Hi Everbody:

I live in Turkey and will be leaving University in a very short time.
As a result my chief source of  books about WW II will be gone. I willbe
very pleased if someone gives me the addresses where I can mail order
books and also other materiel about WW II , both old and new.

Ozgur Altinyay

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 21 Oct 1994 14:16:14 -0400
From:    Warren Thompson <[email-masked]>
Subject: HIST: V2 and von Braun

Lest we get carried away with praise for vB, keep in mind that he was likely a
war criminal who could (should?) have been apprehended and tried. Specifically,
he was aware that slave labor was used -- and horrifically abused --in the
underground rocket factory at Dora/Nordhausen. Comedian Mort Sahl had a
routine mocking the title of vB's book: "I am at the stars ... and hit
London." He was also a member of the SS.

-- Warren Thompson
LEBANON VALLEY COLLEGE
Annville PA 17003

[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 21 Oct 1994 15:13:48 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA: Philippines

>From the DoD Newswire 21 October 1994

:MOCK LANDING MARKS LEYTE DATE

   RED BEACH, Philippines  -- MacArthur tumbled into the surf
and the Marines were all Filipino. But the rest was a replay of
history Thursday, the 50th anniversary of the U.S. landing on Leyte
Island.
   Guns from U.S. Navy warships thundered offshore and explosions
from pre-set charges threw sand into the air.
   Filipino marines in World War II American battle dress stormed
the beach while U.S. veterans watching the elaborate re-enactment
exchanged memories of one of the turning points of the war.
   Four U.S. Army divisions came ashore on Oct. 20, 1944, the first
main American landing in the campaign to recover the Philippines
from the Japanese, who occupied Leyte in early 1942.
   What followed was history's biggest battle of the seas. U.S.
forces destroyed the Japanese fleet within days but it took them six
months and nearly 4,000 American lives to gain control of the
island.
   On Thursday, a half century later, U.S. Defense Sec. William
Perry and Gen. John Shalikashvili, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of
Staff, joined President Fidel Ramos in commemorating the landing on
Leyte, 350 miles southeast of Manila. Representatives from 10 other
countries also took part.
   In Washington and at the MacArthur Memorial in Norfolk, Va.,
separate ceremonies honored the Leyte landing Thursday.
   A U.S. Navy band played the Philippine and U.S. national anthems
at Washington's downtown Navy Memorial before a crowd that included
Philippine and U.S. veterans.
   In the Philippines, Perry praised Filipinos for resisting the
Japanese and supporting the American return to their country, then a
U.S. commonwealth.
   "Filipinos paved the way for the invasion by wearing down the
occupiers," Perry said. "After U.S. troops landed, Filipinos offered
friendship. We in the United States have nothing but admiration."
   As he spoke, six U.S. Navy ships as well as vessels from
Australia, France and Thailand were anchored offshore, recalling the
armada that launched the Oct. 22-27, 1944, Battle of Leyte Gulf.
   "From horizon to horizon, it was full of ships," said Edward
Johnson, 67, a former gunner aboard the USS Louisville during the
Leyte landing. "There were no trees. If there were, they were just
stumps."
   The shelling began the night before, said C.B. Newman of Valley
Park, Mississippi, who landed with the 7th Infantry Division.
   "Palm trees were annihilated. The whole sky lit up. The horizon
was lined with ships. Leyte Gulf was full of ships," said Newman, a
former speaker of the Mississippi House of Representatives.
   The re-enactment might have gone off without a hitch except that
"MacArthur" lost his balance.
   General Douglas MacArthur had fled the Philippines in 1942
vowing, "I shall return."
   But Ken Metcalfe, the actor playing the general Thursday, fell
from his landing craft before he could fulfill the general's famous
pledge.
   From Leyte the Americans went on to invade the main Philippine
island of Luzon and captured the capital, Manila, in February 1945.
The Philippines were granted full independence the following year.
   During the ceremonies, the government gave certificates of
recognition to three American Medal of Honor winners from the
Philippine campaign.
   They were retired Col. Robert Nett of Columbos, Ga., Dirk Vlug of
Grand Rapids, Mich., and retired Master Sgt. Donald Rudolph of
Bovey, Minn.
   "I was so relieved after all the combat," Nett said. "I was just
grateful to lead a normal life and leave all this behind me."
   Japanese Ambassador Yoshifumi Matsuda told the crowd that his
country was "fully aware that Japan was directly responsible for the
grave consequences of war inflicted on the peoples of Asia and the
Pacific."
   But Japanese sources said Matsuda was upset when the ceremony
ended with a brief skit showing a Japanese soldier killing people.
   The Japanese offered little resistance to the 1944 landing and
instead chose to fall back toward Leyte's mountains and stage a
defense there. All but 800 of the 80,000 Japanese died in the
fighting.

====

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 21 Oct 1994 15:26:32 EDT
From:    Doug McCabe <[email-masked]>
Subject: Untold Stories f/ABTF, Pt. 8

                   Ohio University Electronic Communication

   Date:  19-Oct-1994 08:43am EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"[email-masked]" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject:  Untold Stories f/ABTF, Pt. 8

    [Just like the tragic stories, there are a great many humor stories in
    the Ryan Collection files and I've had to reduce them down to the
    following.  Again, from the Oosterbeek exhibit:]

         "I parachuted into a tree.  Fortunately for me, first on the scene
    were several comrades who held my legs while I freed myself from my
    harness.  Somehow or other, this caused all my buttons to be torn from
    my pants.  I never really did find a satisfactory way of keeping them
    up, but after removing all heavy items from my pockets, they stayed up
    reasonably well except when I found it necessary to run."
                             - Pvt. Albert Freemantle, 1st British AB Div.

         "In a barn by the road was an old horse-drawn undertaker's hearse.
    We used it to take a few hours kip.  It sounds humorous today, but,
    under the circumstances, it wasn't too funny then.  Frankly, it was a
    good place to sleep."
                             - L/Cpl. Thomas Harris, 1st British AB Div.

         "While going through the village I and others picked some fruit
    from trees and put them inside our jump jackets.  Later when I was
    cornered at the road junction I put my hand in my jacket to get a
    grenade to throw and produced a pear insetad.  I threw it anyway and
    had to run hell for leather for cover."
                             - Pvt. Henry Bennett, 1st British AB Div.

         "I was walking down a lane and saw an old Dutch lady standing on a
    chair in old wooden clogs, cleaning a window.  On her dress she wore a
    yellow marigold.  She smiled at me and kept rubbing.  I waved and kept
    trudging on by the cottage.  Past it I glanced over my shoulder and
    stopped dead in my tracks.  The front of the house was the only part
    standing.  The roof and three other walls had been blasted down.  The
    front door, closed tightly, and the window the woman was cleaning were
    the only things attached to the lone wall."
                                  - Sapper Thomas Hicks, Royal Engineers

         "I was searching a house for snipers when I heard movement
    upstairs.  At a closed door I turned the knob slowly and then heaved
    the door open.  There, in the bathtub, was a young 17 or 18 year old
    girl.  She stared placidly at me as I groped for the door.  'I'm
    terribly sorry, please forgive us.'  I slammed the door and dove down
    the stairs."
                             - L/Cpl. George Willie, 1st British AB Div.

         "I came 'round the corner of a house with a .38 in my hand and met
    a young German coming 'round the other corner with a Luger in his hand.
    We both looked and dodged back 'round the corner at the same time.  We
    did _not_ fire, the range would be about 20 feet.  Eight years later I
    walked into a bar in Amman, Jordon and met him again and we knew each
    other at a glance.  We had a few beers."
                             - CQMS Thomas Thomas, 1st British AB Div.

         "I went down a lane and climbed into a disabled German Tiger tank.
    The first thing I remember is seeinf blood all over the inside.  The
    breech block was missing and I caught a strong smell of diesel fuel.  I
    started it up, nevertheless, and let it warm up for about 10 minutes.
    By that time both the British and Germans had heard the tank running.
    The Germans probably knew the tank had been disabled and someone else
    was running it and the British could only judge that it was a German
    tank and weren't taking chances.  Both sides directed a rain of fire on
    the tank and it became a nightmare in there.  The impact of the shells
    landing close was so great that everytime one exploded it knocked my
    false teeth out.  I managed to move the tank about 10 or 15 yards
    before the engine finally quit.  It marked the end of my dream of
    giving the Germans a taste of their own medicine."
                                  - Sgt. Joseph Glover, 1st British AB Div.
    [he of "para chick" fame]

         "On one re-supply drop a pannier landed on the roof of a house
    near us.  The easiest way to free it was to enter the house, get out
    the skylight, and cut the rigging lines.  I got to the front door and
    found it locked.  Taised on gangster films, I tried to shoot the lock
    out with my sten.  Nothing happened.  Again I tried.  Still nothing
    happened.  Eventually I loosed off the magazine and from within came
    the weary voice of one of my mates, 'For God's sake knock off the
    shooting and I'll draw the bolt.  The bloody windows are wide open
    anyway, you silly sod!'"
                             - Gunner Robert Christie, Royal Artillery

         "After the battle three Germans entered my shop and ordered me to
    bake them some raisin bread.  I laughed in their faces and asked where
    in the world they expected me to get raisins, when I hardly had wheat
    alone to make bread?  They told me to wait and went away.  A short time
    later they returned with a wooden box full of raisins and ordered 10
    loaves.  I told them to come back the next day.
         The following day we were ordered out of the village.  The bread
    was done and cooling but the Germans had not returned so we decided to
    take the raisin bread with us.  We put the 10 loaves, with some butter
    and sugar, in a pillow case and started north.
         When we stopped to eat, to our surprise, the warm bread had melted
    the butter and it had dripped into the sugar.  Instead of bread, we ate
    'cake.'"
                                       - Baker Dirk van Beek, Oosterbeek

    Still to come: British and Dutch Experiences; The Other Side; and,
    Polish Experiences.

    Doug

Received:  21-Oct-1994 03:26pm

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 21 Oct 1994 20:59:54 +0100
From:    Ludwig Goller <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP:V2

On Fri, 21 Oct 1994, chris garcia wrote:

> I'm not sure of the blast area of the V2 was exactly, although it could
> obilterate a large building and possibly a whole block.  The V2 would not
> have changed the outcome of the war, and in fact was an obstacle to the
> germans far more than the allies:[...]
Very true.
Albert Speer, Germanies minister for armament in late WWII, said in in his
memories written down after the war that the V2-program was Germanies most
expensive and perhaps most useless project of armament in the war. With
hindsight, he says, it would have been much better to develop an AA
rocket with this investment.

Ludwig

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 21 Oct 1994 15:08:03 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HIST: V2 and von Braun

Hello, Warren!

I am curious about this remark.

 He was also a member of the SS.

    Can you cite the source on this. When did he join the SS? What
was his rank? I have copies of the Dienstalterliste der Waffen-SS and
will check this out. I would appreciate a source on this.

    Thanks.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 21 Oct 1994 16:20:48 -0400
From:    "Mr. Scott Hannon" <[email-masked]>
Subject: bookstores

Hi Ozgur,

you might try:

The Scholar's Bookshelf
110 Melrich Road
Cranbury, NJ 08512

U.S.A.

They have a nice sellection, fair (but not the best) prices, and
they do sell overseas (a friend in France buys from them). They
have a Military HIstory catalog that's nearly 90 pages!

Scott.
Scott Hannon, Fri Oct 21 1994 ([email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 21 Oct 1994 15:04:02 -0300
From:    Boris Raymond <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: QUERY OF BORIS RAYMOND

Co. "D", 2dn battalion, 424th Infantry Reg. 106th Infantry Division
with Hq. @ St. Vith.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 21 Oct 1994 19:20:11 -0600
From:    Drew Wright <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HIST: V2 and von Braun

Terry,
I saw where your were asking about v.Braun's rank/membership in the SS.  While
I do not know the answer that you are looking for, I thought that it may ne
be more helpful to your research if you looked in a list of the allgemeine-SS
instead of the Waffen-ss.  I don't know for sure, but would guess that v. Braun
may have held the title of SS-Ehrenfuhrer (SS honorary leader).  If this was
the case, a Waffen-SS rangliste would be of no help.
Hope this is of value...

Drew Wright    [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 21 Oct 1994 21:15:04 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MIDWAY & LUCK

John, I, too, would be interested in your evaluation of Fletcher. As you may
well know, he is not loved very much by the Marine veterans of Guadalcanal, and
his need to refuel at crucial times casts some clouds on his reputation as a
fighting sailor man. As a matter of fact, his postwar reputation is very
spotty. Comment, please. Ben Frank, Marine Corps Historical Center

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 21 Oct 1994 21:32:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 22 OCT 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
SUNDAY, 22 OCTOBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 40+ P-47s hit a variety of targets
including bridges at Panghkam, and at 2 other points along the N Burma rail
corridor, the towns of Manna and Kyaungle, a bivouac in the Indaw area, and
various targets of opportunity.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 2 B-25s knock out 2 railroad
bridges at Pingnam while 8 P-51s pound the town area; 54 P-40s and P-51s on
armed reconnaissance attack town areas and general targets of opportunity at
Nampang, Wanling, Kuanyang, Shekpo, Pingnam, Kweiping, and near Menghsu.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): HQ 492d Bombardment Group (Heavy)
and the 856th, 857th, 858th and 859th Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy), i.e.,
the CARPETBAGGER group assigned to HQ VIII Fighter Command, is transferred to
the 1st Bombardment Division to operate as a night bombing group; only the
856th Squadron remains on CARPETBAGGER operations over the Netherlands,
Norway and Denmark under operational control of HQ Eighth AF; this reduction
of supply dropping forces results from the recapture of major portions of
France. The 859th Squadron is sent to Italy in Dec 44 and did not return;
the 857th and 858th started night bombing sorties on a limited scale in Dec
44.
  Mission 685: 1,131 bombers and 785 fighters are dispatched on PFF attacks
on targets in W Germany; 2 bombers and 1 fighter are lost:
  1. 379 B-17s are dispatched to hit military vehicle plants at Hannover/
Hanomag (171) and Brunswick/Bussing (148); targets of opportunity are
Bielefeld (35) and other (6); 2 B-17s are lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and
15 damaged; 20 airmen are KIA, 3 WIA and 16 MIA. Escort is provided by 379
P-47s and P-51s; 1 P-51 is lost (pilot MIA) and 1 damaged beyond repair.
  2. 353 of 373 B-24s hit the Hamm marshalling yard; 29 B-24s are damaged.
Escort is provided by 196 of 212 P-51s; 1 P-51 is damaged beyond repair.
  3. 352 of 379 B-17s hit the Munster marshalling yard; 8 others hit targets
of opportunity; 13 B-17s are damaged. Escort is provided by 147 of 157 P-51s.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Advance HQ XXIX Tactical Air Command
(Provisional) and HQ 84th and 303d Fighter Wings move from Arlon, Belgium to
Maastricht, the Netherlands to maintain close association with the US Ninth
Army. Weather forbids bomber operations; fighter sweeps and armed
reconnaissance support US Third and Seventh Army elements in E France and W
Germany. In Belgium, HQ 373d Fighter Group moves from Reims, France to Le
Culot.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Bad weather limits operations
to reconnaissance flights.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, bad weather grounds all
medium bombers and A-20s; fighters and fighter-bombers, flying less than 20
sorties, hit rail lines and trains in N Italy; the 7th Troop Carrier
Squadron, 62d Troop Carrier Group, moves from Galera Airfield to Brindisi
with C-47s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): Guam Island-based B-24s hit Yap Island with
harassment raids during the day, operating singly or in groups of 2 or 3.
Makin Island-based B-25s bomb Nauru Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: In the Philippine
Islands, B-25s and P-38s attack shipping in the Sulu Archipelago and Jolo
harbor on Jolo Island and Zamboanga harbor on Mindanano Island while B-24s
hit Opon and Lahug Airfields on Cebu Island; B-25s hit Ternate on Samar
Island and B-24s pound Matina Airfield in the Cagayan Islands, and Likanan on
Mindanao Island; and HQ 308th Bombardment Wing (Heavy) moves from Hollandia,
New Guinea to Leyte Island. B-25s hit Piroe Bay supply dumps in the Moluccas
Islands and gun positions and fighter-bombers hit Kairatoe Airfield on
Celebes Island and Amahai Airfield on Ceram Island and targets of opportunity
in Binnen Bay. A-20s blast pillboxes and occupied areas in the Metimedan-Sawar
Rivers sector of New Guinea.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

22/0135Z OCT

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 22 Oct 1994 00:40:13 GMT
From:    SYSTEM 0PERATOR <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: QUES: troopships

"John E. Kollar" <[email-masked]> writes:

> The reason that the QE II and several other large liners were used as
> troopships and not escorted was that their speed of advance, 17 knots
> and up, prohibited U-boats from being able to target them effectively,
> basically they could outrun all the U-boats, and didn't need escorts

Obviously the British did not fear the "frontal" attack, where a submarine
waits for his prey ahead of its course, as opposed to chasing it. My "Silent
Service" computer game must be unrealistic :-)

> who would just slow them down and add to the likelyhood of their
> being detected.

Didn't most destroyers run at 30 knots or more ?

One thing I would suggest maybe is that were escorts added, they would have
to run fast, and would not have been able to use their sonar effectively,
due to their own noise.
Does this sound reasonable ?

Arnaud.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 22 Oct 1994 01:09:28 GMT
From:    SYSTEM 0PERATOR <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP:V2

By the play of chance, there was yesterday night a long program on the
V1 and V2 on French TV. Among other interesting footage, dozens of filmed
failed trials of German rockets were shown. It was very funny. Except that
about everytime a rocket misfired, a terrifying explosion ensued
where the rocket fell, that is about randomly. I would not have liked to be
a German tester...
In June 1944, the Allies were not already rolling up the launching sites.
They there located mostly in Northern France and the Low Countries. An
argument erupted in the German High Command as to whether the sites would
to be made mobile or underground. As a compromise both were done. Huge
bunkers were built, but not a single rocket was fired from them (the program
said). The Allies bombed them mercilessly, using 5 ton bombs at times.
The Germans rejoiced as the "decoy bunkers" were a perfect success.
Emmanuel is right in saying that the aerial attacks had minimal results.

The Germans used concentration camp manpower to build the huge underground
complexes. Under the lash of the SS, they died by the thousand in abominable
24-hour work schedules. 3 men died for each V rocket launched.

Arnaud.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 22 Oct 1994 02:47:01 GMT
From:    SYSTEM 0PERATOR <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: bookstores

Scott Hannon wrote :
>
> The Scholar's Bookshelf
> 110 Melrich Road
> Cranbury, NJ 08512
>
> U.S.A.
>
> They have a nice sellection, fair (but not the best) prices, and
> they do sell overseas (a friend in France buys from them). They
> have a Military HIstory catalog that's nearly 90 pages!
>
> Scott.
> Scott Hannon, Fri Oct 21 1994 ([email-masked])

Hmmm...Scott I think I know who this friend in France is :-)
The Scholar's bookshelf have given me great satisfaction...
and they *swamp* me with catalogues (much to my pleasure).

Ozgur, also try the following :
ARTICLES OF WAR LTD
8806 Bronx Avenue
Skokie, IL 60077-1896
USA

And :
VALOR PUBLISHING
3418 Hamilton Blvd.
Allentown, PA 18103
USA

Arnaud.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 21 Oct 1994 22:26:17 EST
From:    "CARL WERNKE (TCWERNC@VCCSCENT)" <[email-masked]>
Subject: TAC: RN Torpedo Attacks

 To: Multiple recipients of list WWII-L([email-masked])

 Richard Kaplan writes Thu, 13 Oct 1994 12:02:57 EDT
 >Reading the account of the attack on Taranto, and the night fighting
 >methods employed by the Royal Navy, I was immediately reminded of
 >Japanese tactics at Savo Island

 The Fairey Swordfish will remain imperishable in the annals of the Fleet
 Air Arm. Few aircraft, with the exception of the Spitfire, ever received
 and deserved such universal acclaim. It was known to everybody as the
 'Stringbag'; its achievements became a legend, and it earned the affection
  and respect of thousands of F.A.A. pilots during its decade of active
  service with the Royal Navy.

 In November 1940 came the crowning achievement of the Swordfish's career:
 the epic attack on Taranto. This magnificent victory is a landmark in the
 history of naval air warfare, for it was the first time that aircraft had
 shown themselves capable of knocking out an entire enemy fleet and, unaided,
 altering the balance of power at sea. Taranto was indeed a suitable reward for
 all those whose years of work and faith in the F.A.A. had made such a
 triumph possible.

 The attack took place on the night of 11 November 1940, when the moon was
 three-quarters full. Preliminary reconnaissance of Taranto harbor showed
 that the Italians had six battleships at anchor, as well as several cruisers
 and destroyers. The Swordfish, each specially fitted with long-range tanks
 in the rear cockpit displacing the third crew member, took off from
 *Illustrious*, 180 miles from the target. The first strike force, of 12
 aircraft, was airborne at 2030, and was followed by a second force of eight
 (later joined by a ninth aircraft) after an hour's interval. Eleven of the
 Swordfish carried torpedoes, six carried bombs and four were equipped with
 flares to illuminate the target. The first flare-droppers arrived over the
 target about 2300 and the srtike force (led by LCDR K.Williamson) dived to
 the attack through the middle of a balloon barrage. Through intense
 anti-aircraft fire, they all hit the target and only one aircraft was lost.
 The second wave, which arrived at 2400, was equally successful and only one
 Swordfish was lost. Next day, when the smoke cleared, air reconnaissance
 showed that the Italians had suffered a crippling blow: the three battleships
 CAVOUR, DUILIO and ITALIA had all been severely damaged and two of them were
 under water. In addition to this, the cruiser TRENTO and the destroyers
 LIBECCIO and PASSANGO had been hit, two auxiliary vessels sunk and seaplane
 hangers and oilstorage tanks knocked out. THe Swordfish responsible for
 this attack had been drawn from Nos. 815 and 819 Squadrons (embarked in
 ILLUSTRIOUS), and Nos. 813 and 824 Squadrons from EAGLE, temporarily
 embarked in ILLUSTRIOUS for the operation.

 Thus was the strategy and tactics structured for the Imperial Japanese Navy
 formulated for the Hawai Sakusen, the attack on Pearl Harbor.

 Carl Wernke
 [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 21 Oct 1994 22:05:27 EDT
From:    William Lippert <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Churchill's bad decisions (from Economic Causes of the

Emmanual Gustin,
   I will not incorporate the entire text of your message regarding strategic
bombing in Germany, but to sum it up, you and Robert Moore seem to imply
that the strategic bombing campaign raised the morale of the Germans and
the British.  I have often heard this idea stated in many places, but it
seems very displaced or at least misworded.
   I would agree that the German bombing of London did raise England's
morale, but I do not see it as vice versa.  First, the British could
look upon their hardships as the price of freedom and the cost of winning
their just war that was the result of an aggressive Germany.
   The Germans, on the other hand,viewed the war as a regretable incident
and not at all something to be pleased about.  When the soldiers marched
off to Poland and Hitler staged a huge parade right before the invasion,
the streets of Berlin were noticeably empty.  When the bombing of Berlin
started during the Battle of Britain, the British were only able to throw
small numbers (less than 50) of bombers at Berlin.  But the air raids
were large enough to require the population to go to the air raid shelter
between 7PM and 2AM local time - generally disrupting their sleep.  This
didn't help productivity to be sure - nor did it make them particularly
happy.
   William L. Shirer, who has a very interesting account of his days in
the Reich from 1928 or so to 1941 in "Berlin Diary" and he provides some
insightful opinions of the Reich.  Here is one joke (in my own words, more
or less) that he related about the bombings and was popular in '41:

    Every night about 11:00PM the air raid sirens go off and the people of
Berlin drudge into the subways and shelters.  Since some Berliners know
when the raids occur, they go to bed early and wake up whenever the sirens
go off.  You know they have just woken up when they walk into the shelter
and say, "Good morning".  Some people haven't gone to sleep yet and so
when they get to the shelter they say, "good evening!"  And then there
are some who walk into the shelter and say, "Heil Hitler" and you know
that they haven't woken up yet.

    I think this joke says that the bombings didn't raise the morale
of the German people, but it made them apathetic on the one hand and
determined to survive it at all costs - a cold, hard determination.  All
this talk about morale raising is strange - how the death of so many
Berliners and Hamburgers and Munichers can be heartening I just can't
imagine.
  But I've been wrong before!

William Lippert,
The American University

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 21 Oct 1994 22:03:49 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <[email-masked]>
Subject: Home Front

I understand that there was a shortage of fat during the war, and thousands
of pounds was collected.  Can somebody tell me what it was used for?

Thanks.

  =========================================================================
  | DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
  |                                  | Computers in Business & Education. |
  | Recently returned from my second | Education:  Curriculum development.|
  |   extended stay in Prague.       |    International Education, TEFL.  |
  | Working on second book about     | Central Europe:  Post revolution   |
  |   Prague and new Czech Republic  |    economic, social, political     |
  |   and a book about the B-25      |    problems and opportunities.     |
  |   in WWII.                       | B-25 in WWII.                      |
  | E-Mail:                          | Free lance writing and editing.    |
  |   USA:  [email-masked]    | Stamp collecting.                  |
  |         [email-masked] |                                    |
  =========================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 21 Oct 1994 23:26:08 EDT
From:    William Lippert <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HIST: V2 and von Braun

On Fri, 21 Oct 1994 14:16:14 -0400 Warren Thompson said:
>Lest we get carried away with praise for vB, keep in mind that he was likely a
>war criminal who could (should?) have been apprehended and tried. Specifically,
>he was aware that slave labor was used -- and horrifically abused --in the
>underground rocket factory at Dora/Nordhausen. Comedian Mort Sahl had a
>routine mocking the title of vB's book: "I am at the stars ... and hit
>London." He was also a member of the SS.
>
>-- Warren Thompson
>LEBANON VALLEY COLLEGE
>Annville PA 17003
>
>[email-masked]

    Was he a real member of the SS, having gone through the schools, training,
and officially on the payroll, or was he an honorary member, like Martin
Bormann, people in the Kripo, etc.

William Lippert

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 20 Oct 1994 to 21 Oct 1994
*************************************************