Subject: WWII-L Digest - 25 Oct 1994 to 26 Oct 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 1994 00:01:45 -0400

There are 37 messages totalling 1822 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. [GEN/MEDIA] was "Dumb Luck" in the Phillipines (2)
  2. WEAP: Long Lance torpedo-
  3. INF: USN Chronology 10-26-94
  4. INF: 50 Years Ago - 27-OCT-1944
  5. WEAP: CVE-108  USS Kula Gulf
  6. Untold Stories f/ABTF, Pt. 11
  7. ME163 (3)
  8. HYPO: Battle of Leyte Gulf
  9. Wernher von Braun
 10. 50TH: BRIEFING MY FAMILY ON THE WAR
 11. HYPO:  Battle of Leyte Gulf (2)
 12. George Gay
 13. Weekday Wings
 14. <No subject given>
 15. TRIV: Lost fossils
 16. MEDIA: George Gay
 17. MEDIA:Mustangs Found (2)
 18. MEDIA:Philippines War Dead
 19. [WEAP] Battleships sunk by torpedos/gunfire
 20. WEAP:  CVE-20  USS Barnes
 21. INF: Regia Marina, Part 5 (2)
 22. Trial Lawyer needed for school interview.
 23. Massacre
 24. Call for Papers - Women in the Military
 25. Sheer (Was: Regia Marina, Part 5)
 26. WWII Memoirs
 27. HYPO: The "Big" what- (3)
 28. [INF] USAAF 27 OCT 44
 29. Another List of some interest.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 26 Oct 1994 14:39:11 EST
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [GEN/MEDIA] was "Dumb Luck" in the Phillipines

>a single magnetic mine on each vessel (placed by Italians, natch) sank both
the
>QUEEN ELIZABETH and the VALIANT, despite the fact that the Italian frogmen had
>been caught and the British should have been fully forewarned and hence ready
to
>demonstrate their damage control wizardry.  Need I also mention that these two
>modernized WWI ships also had better protection than the above-mentioned
>Italian BB's, or that the mines placed were approximately the same size as
>torpedo warheads??  And while we're on the RN, it seems their battleships had
>a nasty tendency to blow up...i.e., the HOOD, hit by an 8-inch salvo from
>PRINZ EUGEN, with the loss of the crew, and the BARHAM, after taking three
>torpedoes from U-331, losing over 860 men.
>
Just a few comments (also only off the top of my head) for discussion.
Armour protection is of little value when the charges are attached directly
under the  hull away from the belt, so the attacks by the frogmen are not
really comparable to a torpedo launched against the side armour. And while on
the RN ships tending to blow up - (i'll leave the controversial HOOD comment
alone)- but I think that you are overgeneralising from two incidents - at
least 2 "R" class ships took torpedo hits while at sea and limped home, Nelson
was hit several times including one major mining, both the P.O.W. and the
Repulse capsised without exploding. To say that the RN battleships tended to

explode from only two instances is like saying that USN battleships tended to
blow up because of the example of the Arizona, or IJN ships did becasue of the
Mutsu.

>A final thought on this topic is that perhaps it was considered less vital to
>save a ship from sinking if that ship was berthed in shallow water when hit.

I think you have a valid point here. If the ship is just going to sit on the
bottom with the main decks still above water the ship is not going to be lost.
When the "R" class ships were hit in the open sea, damage control was
considered very effective, but their average draughts increased by several
yards - if they were in harbour they would have hit the bottom anyway. The
ultimate objective of damage control is to make sure that the ship can regain
port. If it already in port you would concentrate on repair rather than
emergency fixes that are ultimately unnecessary.

David Murnain
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 26 Oct 1994 04:02:00 UTC
From:    "Edward S. Miller" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: Long Lance torpedo-

Carl Wernke asks:

  > This is the IJN Type 93, Model 1, Modification 1 (destroyers) torpedo.
  > Who named the torpedo "long lance, and why ?

"Type 93" was designed in he Japanese calendar year 2593, corresponding to
1933, hence the name.  Just like the Zero fighter of year 2400 (1940).
Don't know who dubbed it Long Lance, presumably the Japanese.
  Comparison of standard submarine torpedoes:
  Japanese Type 93: oxygen propelled, 24" diameter, warhead 1,078 lbs, range
22,000 yds at 49 knots or 44,000 yards at 36 knots.
  US Mark 14. developed 1931, in service 1938, 21" diameter, warhead 643
lbs, range 4,500 yards at 46.3 knots or 9,000 yards at 31.1 knots.
  Amazing!  Five times the range and 63% more punch and faster, too.  And
their detonators were reliable, unlike ours.

Source: Dorr Carpenter and Norman Polmar, =Submarines of the Imperial
Japanese Navy= (Annapolis: Naval Institute Press, 1986), p 156.

This thread began with Japanese aerial torpedoes which weren't Long Lances.
The ranges were pretty short at Pearl Harbor and the Repulse/Prince of Wales
action.  I suppose a ship can more readily evade aerial torpedoes dropped at
a great distance because its lookouts can see where they are coming from,
even if they are oxygen torpedoes that leave no bubble wake.  But then the
favored technique of navies was massed drops by a squadron at a 45-degree
angle on both bows.  Whichever way the ship turned it would swing broadside
to half of the torpedoes.

Ed Miller  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 26 Oct 1994 04:00:11 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 10-26-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
10/26 Thu. Battle for Leyte Gulf (23-26 October) ends as
           carrier-based and Army aircraft bomb the retiring
           Japanese ships which have survived  the previous
           days' action.
            United States naval vessels damaged, Battle for
             Leyte Gulf.
             Escort carrier SUWANNEE (CVE-27), by dive bomber
              and suicide plane,
              09 d. 37'N., 126 d. 53'E.
             PT-131, by dive bomber,
              09 d. 00'N., 125 d. 00'E.
            Japanese naval vessels sunk, Battle for Leyte Gulf:
             Light cruiser ABUKUMA, by surface craft,
              09 d. 20'N., 122 d. 32'E.
            Light cruiser KINU, by carrier-based aircraft,
             11 d. 46'N., 123 d. 11'E.
            Light cruiser NOSHIRO, by carrier-based aircraft,
             11 d. 35'N. 121 d. 45'E.
            Destroyer HAYASHIMO, by carrier-based aircraft,
             19 d. 05'N.,  121 d. 50'E.
            Destroyer NOWAKI, by surface craft,
             13 d. 00'N., 124 d. 54'E.
            Destroyer URANAMI, by carrier-based aircraft,
             11 d. 50'N., 123 d. 00'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: Larry Jewell <[email-masked]>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 26 Oct 1994 04:47:56 -0700
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 27-OCT-1944

On 27-OCT-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The Canadian 2nd Division reaches the Beveland Canal. In the
British I Corps sector, the Canadian 4th Armoured Division enters
Bergen-op-Zoom. In the Canadian 1st Army sector, the 104th Division, supported
by British tanks, captures Zundert. In the British 2nd Army sector,
parachutists of the German 1st Army launch a sudden heavy attack towards Asten
against the US 7th Armoured Division, retaking positions captured by the
Americans on the Deurne and Nord Canals. The Germans reach Meijel and also
break through the Allied positions at Heitrak.

Eastern Front - The 4th Ukraine Front takes Uzhgorod on the northeast frontier
of Hungary.

Italian Front - The British 26th Armoured Brigade captures Rocco San Casciano.
Units of the Polish 5th Division retake Predappio Nuovo after losing it the
previous day to a German counter-attack. Troops from the 10th Indian Division
succeed in crossing the Ronco during the night.

Philippines - In the US X Corps sector, the 24th Infantry Division capture the
village of Pastrana. In the XXIV Corps sector, the 96th Division attacks
Tabontabon again; one battalion enters the town, but is then cut off by a
sudden Japanese counter-attack. The 7th Division occupies Buri airfield
against slight resistance.

Pacific - Aircraft from two squadrons under command of Rear-Admirals Sherman
and Davison attack Japanese ships and coastal positions in the waters of the
central Philippines and on Luzon, sinking two destroyers. The battleship
California is attacked and damaged by Japanese aircraft.

China - The Japanese step up their offensive for the capture of the US air
bases in eastern China.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "Facts On File Yearbook 1944,
Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.netcom.com in directory /pub/jbd and can
be accessed via the WWW by URL: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/jbd/ww2.html. If you
have difficulty accessing the Netcom FTP server, please keep trying because it
stays very busy.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis     [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 26 Oct 1994 08:13:32 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: CVE-108  USS Kula Gulf

From: Dictionary of American Fighting Ships, Vol. III, 1968, Navy
Department, Office of the Chief of Naval Operations, Naval History
Division, Washington, D.C.

KULA GULF (CVE-108)

The night naval battle of 6 July 1943 between an American cruiser-
destroyer task group under Rear Admiral W. L. Ainsworth and a powerful
Japanese destroyer force in a 5-mile wide gulf between Kolobangara and
New Georgia, Solomon Islands. The task group sank one enemy destroyer
and drove a second ashore, while Japanese torpedoes sank cruiser HELENA.

dp. 11,373;
l. 557' 1";
b. 75';
ew. 105' 2";
dr. 32';
s. 19 k.;
cpl. 1,066;
a. 2 5", 36 40-mm., 20 20-mm., ac. 34;
cl. COMMENCEMENT BAY

VERMILLION BAY (CVE-108) as renamed KULA GULF 6 November 1943; laid down
by Todd-Pacific Shipyards, Inc., Tacoma, Wash., 16 December 1943;
launched 15 August 1944- sponsored by Miss Dorothy Mott; completed by
Williamette Iron & Steel Corp., Portland, Oreg.; and commissioned at
Portland 12 May 1945, Captain J. W. Ring in command.

After shakedown and night carrier training off the West Coast, KULA GULF
departed San Diego 5 August for operations with the 7th Fleet in the
Western Pacific. Steaming via Pearl Harbor and the Marshalls, she
arrived Leyte Gulf, Philippines, 14 September. During the next 2 months
she patrolled the East China Sea out of Okinawa and shuttled planes
between Saipan and Guam. Assigned to "Magic-Carpet" duty, she departed
Guam 17 November with 600 veterans of the Pacific fighting embarked and
steamed to San Francisco, arriving 4 December. Between 10 December and
10 January 1946 she returned to the Far East, and, after embarking 1,520
returning veterans at Tientsin and Tsingtao, China, she sailed to the
West Coast, reaching San Diego 26 January. She departed San Francisco
for the East Coast 26 February, arrived Norfolk 16 March, decommissioned
at Boston 3 July, and entered the Atlantic Reserve Fleet.

When the Korean conflict brought an urgent need for a greatly expanded
fleet throughout the world, KULA GULF recommissioned at Boston 15
February 1951, Captain Alden D. Schwarz in command. After shakedown out
of Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, the escort carrier departed Norfolk 6 August
and carried a cargo of airplanes ,to Casablanca, French Morocco.
Following her return to Norfolk 1 September, she spent the next 15
months training pilots of helicopter, air-antisubmarine, and fighter
squadrons to strengthen U.S. forces in Korea.

During May 1952 KULA GULF supported Marine helicopter maneuvers on
Vieques Island, Puerto Rico; and in October she operated as ASW screen
to troop transports bound for Labrador. Following a modernization
overhaul from January to July 1953, she resumed air-antisubmarine
maneuvers in the Caribbean and off the Atlantic coast.

>From 1953 to 1955 KULA GULF helped perfect ASW techniques by
participating in search and kill exercises with ships of the Atlantic
Fleet. She played an important role in the development of more effective
antisubmarine warfare tactics that help the Navy control the seas. In
addition to ASW development, she also aided the advancement of
helicopter warfare tactics, which are now so important during the
struggle to repel Communist aggression in South Vietnam. KULA GULF
supported Marine vertical assault landing exercises at Vieques Island
between February and April 1955. After returning to Norfolk 26 April,
she entered Boston Naval Shipyard 13 May and Philadelphia Naval Shipyard
19 August for inactivation overhauls. She decommissioned at Philadelphia
15 December 1955 and joined the Atlantic Reserve Fleet. She was
reclassified AKV-8 on 7 May 1959.

As Communist aggression in South Vietnam increased, the United States
expanded efforts to protect the integrity and independence of the
Republic of South Vietnam. This assistance posed vast logistic demands
and created the need for additional sea power. Because of this urgent
need, KULA GULF was transferred to MSTS 30 June 1965 for use as an
aircraft ferry. During the summer of 196 she carried helicopters and
troops of the 1st Cavalry Division from the East Coast to Vietnam. Since
then she has continued aircraft shuttle operations between West Coast
ports and American bases along the coast of South Vietnam into 1967.

    Steve L. New
    [email-masked]
    Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 26 Oct 1994 08:23:03 EDT
From:    Doug McCabe <[email-masked]>
Subject: Untold Stories f/ABTF, Pt. 11

                   Ohio University Electronic Communication

   Date:  19-Oct-1994 11:00am EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"[email-masked]" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject:  Untold Stories f/ABTF, Pt. 11

    [The Polish Airborne Brigade suffered double tragedy because as they
    were sent on a Light Brigade mission to Driel now to only be
    slaughtered with the 1st British AB Div., they had prayed they would be
    sent (perhaps also to be slaughtered) to the dying embers that had been
    Warsaw.  An excellent account of their fight is in George
    Cholewczynski's _Poles Apart: The Polish Airborne at the Battle of
    Arnhem_ (New York: Sarpedon Publishers, 1993).]

         "I remember outside Sosabowski's headquarters digging a trench
    when someone shouted 'Jerries!'  Less than 200 yards away I saw about a
    company of Germans, some in uniforms, some in their shirtsleeves,
    driving about 50 Dutch men, women, and children along in front of them,
    toward the direction of Arnhem.  I heard the women and children
    screeming and crying.  Near the railway embankment the Germans broke
    and ran, scrambling to get across it and down the other side.  Shots
    rang out and some of the Dutch fell.  The rest dropped to the ground
    and the Poles opened up on the fleeing Germans."
                        - Cpl. Alexander Kochalski, Polish AB Brigade

         "As I crossed the river i could make out British soldiers dug in
    along the bank.  Later I heard they were to be evacuated, but that the
    Poles were to hold their position and provide covering fire.  We took
    up positions around the crossing point, but it was futile by morning.
    We had no ammo left and I thought then, 'What can we do?'  I laid in
    the mud, shivering with cold and fear, until the Germans began moving
    in.  I saw four British soldiers stand up and link their arms together.
    I wondered what they were doing.  Then I saw what it was.  One of them
    had a grenade and he was pulling the pin.  I shouted, 'No, don't!'
    There was an explosion and the four men fell.  Minutes later I was
    captured."
                             - Pvt. Mieczyslaw Chwastek, Polish AB Brigade

         "After we were on the north side of the river I remember mainly
    that everyone had red eyes - from lack of sleep - and white lips - from
    lack of water.  And, there was such a conglomeration of people there
    and the closeness, one to the other.  It seemed that everywhere you
    looked there was either an Englishman, a Pole, a German, a Dutchman or
    a dead cow."
                             - Cpl. Wladijslaw Korob, Polish AB Brigade

         "I lost half of the men from my stick on the second day of the
    operation after a successful landing.  At that time the English liaison
    officer was in conversation by radio with the surrounded English
    Division on the other side of the river.  Apparently the Germans
    pinpointed his location and sent us half a dozen morter shells which
    were a direct hit on our boys resting outside the house where we were
    preparing for the crossing of the river that night.  By that time the
    liaison officer was gone from his signalling post some five yards away.
    In this incident I was sheltered by my staff sargeant who was sitting
    in front of me and received a direct hit which would otherwise have
    killed me.  I remember his last words: 'O Lord, this is the end.'"
                             - 1st Lt. Stefan Kaczmarek, Polish AB Brigade

         "I found the body of my best friend Sgt. Edward Morchonowixz.  I
    had gone back toward the DZ, probably to pick up supplies.  There,
    hanging from a tree, was Morchonowixz about three or four feet from the
    ground.  A knife stuck from his chest, near his throat.  I walked over
    to his body and examined it.  The knife was Morchonowixz's own.  It had
    been taken from his leg where he had strapped it."
                                  - S/Sgt. Juhas Woll, Polish AB Brigade

         "My position was around a large white house on the western edge of
    the perimeter along the main road to Heelsum.  There were several
    wounded in the cellar.  I remember a Dutch woman there who cared for
    them.  One of my men crawled out and cut a big chunk of meat off a dead
    cow and gave it to the Dutch woman.  The next thing I knew she had
    cooked a huge pot of stew and was sharing it out to the wounded and the
    men.  She was absolutely fearless.  There was a small window in the
    house, up close to the roof.  I saw her up there standing and staring
    out.  Germans opened up on the house.  She just stepped back and when
    the firing stopped she was at the window again.  Later she came to me
    and was trying to tell me where the Germans were.  I understood then.
    She was not watching the battle, she was picking out the German
    positions to us."
                                  - Lt. Albert Smaczny, Polish AB Brigade

         "There was a British Major lying apparently dead in front of my
    slit trench in Oosterbeek on Sunday the 24th.  The sun was shining and
    wew were afraid the body might begin to decompose.  So, we decided the
    bury the Major, grabbed his body, and wanted to drop it into an empty
    slit trench....when the corpse opened his eyes."
                        - Cadet Adam Niebieszczanski, Polish AB Brigade

    From Oosterbeek, next comes tales from around Groesbeek.

    Doug

Received:  26-Oct-1994 08:22am

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 26 Oct 1994 07:40:03 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ME163

Hello, Drew!

Here goes with some titles that may be of interest as a partial
answer to your question.

                    World War II (overall)

l. The Marshall Cavendish Illustrated Encyclopedia of WWII (44
volumes). Of all the histories of WWII I have seen, this is the most
complete. All aspects of WWII are treated comprehensively.

2. World War II by Time-Life Books. Also published in multi-volume
format. Not as detailed as the previous title, but interesting
nonetheless.

3. World War Two Through German Eyes

4. The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William L. Shirer.

5. The American Heritage History Picture History of World War II (2
volumes).

Two others come to mind that I will post tomorrow, along with a
listing of the books dealing with the Battle of Britain.

More later, and hope this has been of interest.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 26 Oct 1994 08:30:57 -0500
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <[email-masked]>
Subject: HYPO: Battle of Leyte Gulf

After all the postings about the Phillipines & Leyte Gulf, I have to
propose the following hypothetical:

What if the Japanese Center Force had just plowed straight through Taffy 3?
That is, what if reconnaisance had been better and they had known it was
only a minor force and had continued on to the invasion beaches?  What
would have happened?

Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 26 Oct 1994 09:14:49 EDT
From:    Doug McCabe <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Wernher von Braun

                   Ohio University Electronic Communication

   Date:  26-Oct-1994 08:38am EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"[email-masked]" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject:  Re: Wernher von Braun

    Cornelius Ryan and von Braun became friends as a result of a series of
    articles they colaborated on for _Collier's_ magazine in 1952.  These
    were Man In Space pieces promoting von Braun's dream of space stations,
    going to the moon, etc.  (A piece written by WvB in February 1952
    called "Man's Last Frontier" is amazing in its foresight and
    predictions for the space program.)  Based on those earlier pieces and
    their friendship, Ryan in July 1969 interviewed von Braun at the point
    of his triumph - men heading for the moon.  What follows are quotes
    from that interview which relate to the current discussion about von
    Braun's Nazi-ness.

    CR - "You and I have been friends an awful long time now.  I thought
    back a lot about the human aspect of this thing and there must have
    been times when sure, fair science criticism is one thing, but there
    must have been some hurtful times, too."

    WvB - "Well, there are of course, people who, when they are, shall we
    say, taking off on you, disagreeing with you, that could bring other
    kinds of really - more permanent things into the discussion.  For
    example, it is clear that there is my own background of having worked
    in Nazi Germany.  I have always been vulnerable and easy prey to
    criticism in that area, and often when the guy doesn't know how to hit
    me in any other way, he tries that.  It was a pretty obvious and cheap
    way of hitting you under the belt.  These things, I would say, have
    hurt me by far the most. ....
         .... I started making rockets as a boy when I was interested in
    astronomy, and as things went on, I was making rockets for the
    military.  Of course, initially, the idea of war was very removed, but
    then the war came and I got involved in the development of the V-2 and
    things like that, they leave you some scars, not only with respect to
    criticism from the outside, but somehow the feeling that you build
    weapons of war where people get killed would leave scars on any man.
    Well, I came to this country and at first, our status was very
    uncertain.  I cam over having lost what little I owned in Germany, and
    came over virtually with a cardboard box with the status of a glorified
    prisoner of war.  In due time I was accepted and my associates were
    accepted finally, and as fate would have it, we found ourselves in this
    very interesting Apollo program.  There is, out of this, a feeling of
    very deep gratitude to America and, you know, when a country is this
    good to you, you want to put out your best to return this gratitude and
    I think this is a very strong motivation, not only for myself, but for
    those of my associates who came with me."

         Well, that's as far as I made it through the files last night.  If
    I find anything else that deals with WWII I'll post it later.

    Doug McCabe

Received:  26-Oct-1994 09:14am

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 26 Oct 1994 09:54:01 +0100
From:    JOHN AUSLAND <[email-masked]>
Subject: 50TH: BRIEFING MY FAMILY ON THE WAR

  October 26, 1994
  During this period fifty years ago, the 4th Infantry Division was holding the
line in Germany, and we had periods of rest in Belgium.  I took advantage of
this to continue my exchange with my father, who was in a hospital at Valley
Forge, about the war.  Here are a couple of letters taken from my LETTERS HOME.

          Dear Dad, October 26, 1944, Somewhere in Belgium

          Unquestionably, one's chances are better if he has taken
          advantage of lessons learned. Take that mortar for example.
          Every time I've gone up to one of our OP's for the past three
          days, Jerry had chosen that particular time to fire about ten
          mortar rounds at it. He makes one mistake, though. He fires
          one round to check his data and then throws in the others.
          But that first round gives us time to get into our fox-holes,
          and no one is hurt.

          Today I took a corps artillery officer to the OP. The familiar
          mortar round fell, several hundred yards away. "Come on,"
          I said to our visitor, "Let's get into our holes." Already I
          could hear the cough of the other rounds coming. He looked
          puzzled but followed me. The rounds fell harmlessly around
          us. Later, he asked me how I knew to get in a hole. After
          an explanation, he said, "Glad to know that. I'd have been
          sitting there yet, had you not warned me." He's right on all
          but one point. He wouldn't have been sitting there.

          No doubt you have read that Jerry is using his robot bomb
          on the 1st Army. This is one time it is good to be a front
          line soldier.

          It is a source of much satisfaction that we no longer need
          worry about killing innocent French and Belgians with our
          fire, as too often happened. I'll never forget how sick I was,
          when investigating the effect of our fire on a farmhouse in
          Normandy, to find that among the casualties was a young
          farm girl, killed while she was milking a cow.

          I've given up trying to make rhyme or reason of this
          business. It's really an insane nightmare that fails to fall
          into a sensible pattern. Let's all hope that in due time it will
          end.

          These days find me in good spirits, and quite recovered from
          the "nerves" I had acquired while we were pressed so hard.

          Your son, John

          Dear Folks, October 28, 1944, Somewhere in Belgium

          You all get the impression, no doubt, that this war is all
          rain, cold food, and living in fox-holes. For the rifle
          companies and the troops in the front lines this is largely
          true. However, from there on back the troops usually
          manage to live in increasing comfort as you go to the rear.

          The front lines are held by the rifle platoons, supplemented
          by the machine guns of the heavy weapons company. In the
          attack the rifle company commander and his command
          group stay pretty close up to the riflemen. When the
          situation stabilizes, there is frequently a house near enough
          to the front lines to be used as a company command post.
          If not, they live in dug-outs. This is not too good.

          The next installation is the infantry battalion command post,
          where I do my work. In the attack, unless it is a fast
          moving situation, we displace from house to house. At first,
          when we were new in the business, we worked in tents.
          However, we soon realized that you can't operate in the rain
          and dark. Thus, almost everyone works in buildings. This is
          never any problem, since the people often evacuate their
          homes; and, if they don't, we just have them move over.

          Right now, for example, we're living in a nice little hunter's
          lodge. The officers sleep in the bunks and eat out of the
          house's dishes. Headlights are taken off the jeeps and run
          inside for light. We have picked up a commercial radio, so
          our life is fairly complete. Stray cows are in abundance and
          occasionally someone bags a deer, so we have steak or
          venison or chicken almost every day.

          Everyone shaves daily and bathes once a week at showers
          a couple of miles to the rear. As a whole, the only thing
          missing is the opposite sex.

          Now a few of the men and officers are getting to go to Paris
          for 48 hour passes. This, naturally, is going almost entirely
          to those in the rifle companies.

          With the radio we keep well abreast of the news, through
          the Allied Expeditionary Force's program of the BBC and the
          Allied Forces Network. Also Jerry stations broadcast some
          good music, if you can stomach their silly propaganda. No
          one discourages the men listening to this, as the results are
          d----d little, if any.

          Our paper is the Stars and Stripes, which everyone reads
          from one end to the other daily. Then there is the weekly
          Yank, almost as eagerly devoured. Pocket sized books are
          plentiful. I've read My Son, My Son, Foreign Policy by
          Lippman, Paul Gallico's Short Stories, Jane Eyre, and
          several others. However, it is sometimes difficult to find a
          decent book you haven't read.

          Somehow we don't see Bing Crosby, Dina Shore, etc. at the
          front, at least not our part of the front. One USO show - a
          good one -did come our way just after the breakthrough.

          Love, John

END EXTRACTS

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 26 Oct 1994 10:25:47 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: HYPO:  Battle of Leyte Gulf

     > What if the Japanese Center Force had just plowed straight through
     > Taffy 3? That is, what if reconnaisance had been better and they had
     > known it was only a minor force and had continued on to the invasion
     > beaches?  What would have happened?

     > Tim J. Watts
     > Valparaiso University

     Then I wouldn't have been here to send out all the Taffy-3 messages,

     Steve

     But seriously,

     Had Admiral Kurita gone on to the beaches, the big guns he had left to
     him would have done incredible damage to the stores and troops at the
     beach head, and to the troopships and transports that couldn't leave
     the harbor quickly enough.

     I doubt that he would have sent too many of his ships after the
     retreating merchantmen, his mission was to destroy the beach head.

     However, ADM Halsey's forces were already on their way back at this
     point, due to ADM Nimitz's famous "the world wonders" message.  The
     aircraft from the fast carrier task forces would have eventually
     junked what was left of ADM Kurita's fleet.

     It would depend on how much actual damage Kurita succeeded in
     inflicting on the amphibious forces whether the invasion would
     continue.  If enough force was left between the survivors on the
     beach, and the merchantmen that escaped Kurita's guns, to continue,
     then the invasion would have gone forward regardless.  Take the losses
     at Pelileiu, and the continued press for victory there as an example.

     The real question comes up if the forces at Leyte are so depleted that
     they have to pull back and regroup.

     Doubtless, in one or two months, the assets needed for a successful
     invasion could have been in place.  The questions are 1, would ADM
     Nimitz have returned to his arguments for a northern approach through
     Formosa, bypassing the Phillipines and 2, would the losses at Leyte,
     although strategically insiginificant, have damaged GEN MacArthur's
     reputation enough for ADM Nimitz to prevail?

     If I had to guess, I'd say yes to both questions.  Then the invasion
     of Formosa takes 6 months and a million casualties.  The A-Bomb is
     dropped, the war ends just as it actually did, but with far greater
     losses on the Allied side.

    Steve L. New
    [email-masked]
    Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 26 Oct 1994 14:53:33 GMT
From:    Stephen Baldwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: George Gay

I was saddened to hear via the list of the death of this man....but
somewhat gladdened to know that he had actually survived the war at all.
The only reason I know about him is via the film "Midway" when it looked to
me as if the US pilots were tantamount to being kamikaze pilots as they
bravely attempted to press home their attacks. Actually, I watched that film
several times trying to work out what on earth was going on, and I never
succeeded! (since read up a bit and have begun to understand).

Was it on this list that someone posted the reminiscences of a pacific flattop
pilot? It was a remarkable account and has further heightened my interest in
this area. Was it not incredibly disorientating to fly a plane over mile after
mile of empty sea? These guys must have had great reserves of concentration.
Carrier warfare seems to be such a hit-and-miss affair in WWII...

Steve Baldwin
[email-masked]

**********************************************************************

Euro Lunacy #1

The Lord's Prayer has 58 words. The Ten Commandments have 297 words.
The American Declaration of Independence has 310 words.
The EC Directive on the exporting of duck eggs has 28,911!

**********************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 26 Oct 1994 10:41:56 EDT
From:    William Lippert <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HYPO:  Battle of Leyte Gulf

On Wed, 26 Oct 1994 10:25:47 EDT Steve L. New said:
>
>     Had Admiral Kurita gone on to the beaches, the big guns he had left to
>     him would have done incredible damage to the stores and troops at the
>     beach head, and to the troopships and transports that couldn't leave
>     the harbor quickly enough.
>
>     I doubt that he would have sent too many of his ships after the
>     retreating merchantmen, his mission was to destroy the beach head.
>
>     However, ADM Halsey's forces were already on their way back at this
>     point, due to ADM Nimitz's famous "the world wonders" message.  The
>     aircraft from the fast carrier task forces would have eventually
>     junked what was left of ADM Kurita's fleet.
>
>     It would depend on how much actual damage Kurita succeeded in
>     inflicting on the amphibious forces whether the invasion would
>     continue.  If enough force was left between the survivors on the
>     beach, and the merchantmen that escaped Kurita's guns, to continue,
>     then the invasion would have gone forward regardless.  Take the losses
>     at Pelileiu, and the continued press for victory there as an example.
>
>     The real question comes up if the forces at Leyte are so depleted that
>     they have to pull back and regroup.
>
      Would the Japanese force have been able to have inflicted enough
damage on the US ground forces?  Without the benifit of air support, their
time on station would be minimal - just enough to destroy the beachheads
and the supplies.  However, the ground troops would probably sustain no
more than 3-5 percent casualties from the naval forces.  As you said,
pretty soon the naval threat would be neutralized by Halsey's returning
carrier forces.  Were there plans on the part of the Japanese infantry
to exploit any success on the sea?  And if so, would they have succeeded
in driving the US troops off?  As a general rule, the Japanese were not
the best at offensive action (Guadalcanal, New Guinea, etc.) or one can
at least say that they were not good enough to defeat the Marines.
    I do not think the infantry (US) would have sustained enough losses
to merit a full withdrawal; nor indeed would the Navy have sustained enough
losses for a similar withdrawal.  In Guadalcanal, despite heavy losses on
land and sea, the US held out and fought on and on until the battle was
won.  Added to this is the fact that once the Japanese were defeated
at sea during this battle, their navy was all but decimated.

>     Doubtless, in one or two months, the assets needed for a successful
>     invasion could have been in place.  The questions are 1, would ADM
>     Nimitz have returned to his arguments for a northern approach through
>     Formosa, bypassing the Phillipines and 2, would the losses at Leyte,
>     although strategically insiginificant, have damaged GEN MacArthur's
>     reputation enough for ADM Nimitz to prevail?
>
>
>     If I had to guess, I'd say yes to both questions.
>    Steve L. New
>    [email-masked]
>    Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

    I do not think that the losses incurred with the successful drive of
the Japanese force would have been a taint on MacArthur.  First, there
would be a lot of arguing and blaming.  This is off the top of my head,
but wasn't Halsey under Nimitz?  Additionally, the failure to stop the
Japanese task force would be the fault of the Navy in general, and thus
the naval argument of the Northern drive undergo a credibility crisis,
while the Army plan (who were uninvolved, they might claim, in the naval
engagement of Leyte Gulf) would gain more weight due to the "Naval"
failure.  This debate (central vs. south drive) goes beyond MacArthur and
Nimitz to the level of the Joint Chiefs.

William Lippert
The American University

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 26 Oct 1994 11:16:09 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Weekday Wings

     >   Grrrr!  I'm jealous!  Did you ever bring home any money or did
     > they simply pay you in model kits?  I've been getting their mail
     > order catalogs since 1982 and I've probably spent more money than I
     > would care to admit!  And I have all the unbuilt model kits stacked
     > up to prove it!  Lucky dog!

                Joe

     Money???   Were they supposed to pay me money?  Somehow, I always
     seemed to end up owing them.

     Steve

    Steve L. New
    [email-masked]
    Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 26 Oct 1994 11:34:12 EST
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: <No subject given>

nl
get wwii-l log9401b a1 f=mail

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 26 Oct 1994 10:37:34 -0400
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: TRIV: Lost fossils

        I picked up a package of toy dinosaurs for my son (and me!) the
other day and there was a little sheet describing the various animals.
The one that really struck my fancy was the Spinosaurus.  The paragraph
detailed some of the unique characteristics of this animal, then ended
on this note: "Most of the best fossil evidence of this large carnivore
was destroyed in WWII."  Add this to the list of historical artifacts
lost in the war: the Amber Room, a Roman trireme, etc.
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
Your crabs will leave you now!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 26 Oct 1994 11:59:24 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA: George Gay

>From the DoD Newswire 24 October 1994

:WWII PILOT GEORGE GAY DIES

   MARIETTA, Ga.  -- George H. Gay Jr., a pilot who drifted in
the sea as one of the most important naval battles of World War II
unfolded around him, is dead at age 77.
   Gay died Friday of a heart attack at Kennestone Hospital.
   As a 25-year-old Navy pilot, Gay flew a Douglas Devastator in an
attack on Japanese war ships near Midway Island on June 4, 1942.
   All of the planes in his squadron were shot down. He was the only
one of 30 men in Torpedo Squadron 8 to survive. Wounded and wearing
a life jacket, he watched American dive bombers hurtle out of the
clouds to attack Japanese aircraft carriers and found himself
"cheering and hollering with every hit."
   Later, Gay made personal appearances on behalf of the Navy,
spreading the news of the nation's first sea victory in the Pacific,
a turning point in the war.
   Gay was a TWA pilot for 30 years after the war. He also spoke to
civic groups around the country, retelling his Midway experiences
and calling for greater military preparedness.
   In 1975, he was a consultant for the movie "Midway." Kevin Dobson
played his part. Gay toured the country with the film's stars,
Charlton Heston and Henry Fonda, to promote the movie.
   A native of Waco, Texas, Gay eventually moved to Marietta for the
convenience of air travel from Atlanta to travel to speaking
engagements.
   He is survived by his wife, Esther Huffman Bevacqua Gay, and two
stepchildren.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 26 Oct 1994 12:01:04 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA:Mustangs Found

>From the DoD Newswire 24 October 1994

:WAR PLANES FOUND IN INDONESIA

   JAKARTA, Indonesia  -- A fisherman has found the wreckage of
two U.S. fighter planes that apparently crashed during World War II
in eastern Indonesia, an official said Monday.
   The moss- and mud-covered bodies of the Mustang planes were found
Thursday in the sea bed by an oyster hunter, M. Kale, in Irian Jaya
province, said a district official, M. Tahir Mustafa.
   He was contacted by telephone in the Kokas district, about 1,731
miles northeast of Jakarta.
   Mustafa said the fighters may have been shot down by Japanese
troops, who were stationed in Kokas during the war.
   The aircraft were intact and the United States of America
insignias had not faded, he added.

======

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 26 Oct 1994 12:02:35 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA:Philippines War Dead

>From the DoD Newswire 24 October 1994

:U.S. HONORS FILIPINO WAR DEAD

   MANILA, Philippines  -- Gen. John Shalikashvili, Chairman of
the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff, joined Filipino and American
veterans Saturday in honoring comrades killed in World War II.
   Shalikashvili visited the American Cemetery on the outskirts of
Manila for a service in memory of the 17,201 soldiers buried there.
   A special memorial in the middle of the cemetery commemorated
36,281 soldiers whose bodies were never recovered.
   "It is said that any nation that forgets its heroes will itself
soon be forgotten," Shalikashvili told more than 500 Filipino and
American veterans at the service.
   'Neither we, the children of those who fought and bled here for
the cause of liberty, nor our children shall ever forget."
   After three volleys of gunfire, taps was played for the war dead
and a Philippine army helicopter dropped flower petals.
   The Japanese invaded the Philippines in early 1942. The United
States recovered the islands, then a U.S. commonwealth, in a
campaign that began in October 50 years ago.

=====

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 26 Oct 1994 12:17:15 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [WEAP] Battleships sunk by torpedos/gunfire

NEVADA was hit by one bomb and one torpedo prior to getting under way
(subsequently by six more bombs from the Japanese second wave)...
By the way, Robert, you were right about most of the ships at Pearl getting
hit by many torpedoes-- OKLAHOMA caught four prior to capsizing, and the UTAH,
mistakenly identified as a BB, (was an old BB now used as a target ship, as you
probably know) took three.
(BTW, excuse the poor attempt at Italian in my previous post-- I think I should
have said "per il onore della Regina Marina.")  Apparently every BB in the outerrow at Pearl was hit by at least one torpedo, and most by more than one.

Regards

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 26 Oct 1994 12:38:08 -0400
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [GEN/MEDIA] was "Dumb Luck" in the Phillipines

To David Murnain:  I had a hunch someone on this list would call my bluff on
the inclusion of the QE and the VALIANT in my post about torpedo sinkings.
You are of course correct that the placement of the mines directly below the
keel created  a situation not directly comparable to a torpedo hit.  BTW, part
of my comments about British BB's blowing up was meant in fun (I just hate that
little homemade smile icon so I refuse to use it-- some residual resistance to
technology, I guess).  Obviously incidents with two ships out of the 20 BB's
and battlecruisers the RN had operational during the war cannot be used to
generalize for the whole fleet.  My point in bringing up the HOOD was that
even in navies with excellent reputations for seamanship and damage control
unexpected and catastrophic results can sometimes result from battle damage.

Thanks for your indulgence

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 26 Oct 1994 12:42:40 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP:  CVE-20  USS Barnes

From: Dictionary of American Fighting Ships, Vol. I, 1964, Navy
Department, Office of the Chief of Naval Operations, Naval History
Division, Washington, D.C.

BARNES (CVE-20)

dp. 7800;
l. 495' 8";
b. 111' 6";
dr. 26';
s. 17.6 k.;
cpl. 890
a. 2'5";
cl. BOGUE

Laid down under a Maritime Commission contract, the second BARNES (ACV-
20) was transferred to the Navy 1 May 1942; launched 22 May 1942 by
Seattle-Tacoma Shipbuilding Corp., Tacoma, Wash.; sponsored by Mrs. G.
L. Hutchinson, widow of Lieutenant Hutchinson; and commissioned 20
February 1943, Captain C. D. Glover in command.  Originally classified
AVG-20, she was reclassified ACV-20, 20 August 1942; CVE-20, 15 July
1943; and CVHE-20, 12 June 1955.

The major task of BARNES throughout World War II was the transporting of
aircraft and personnel from the United States to forward areas of the
Pacific.  In addition she served as a combat, training and pilot
qualifying carrier.

While performing these duties she launched her planes on several raids
against Tarawa in the Gilbert Islands operation (20 November-5 December
1943); and provided invaluable aircraft replenishment to the various
task groups of the 3rd Fleet during the western Caroline Islands
operation (6 September-14 October 1944), and the Luzon attacks (19
October 1944).

After Japans surrender, BARNES remained in the Far East on occupation
duty until 3 November 1945.  Returning to the United States in March
1946 BARNES remained on the west coast for a period of time and then
steamed to Boston, where she was placed out of commission in reserve 29
August 1946.

BARNES was awarded three battle stars for her service during World War
II.

    Steve L. New
    [email-masked]
    Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 26 Oct 1994 13:26:34 -0400
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: Regia Marina, Part 5

        The beginning of 1942 saw the situation deteriorating in Malta.
The British decided to attempt to resupply the island by running a
convoy from Alexandria.  On March 20, four ships, escorted by an anti-
aircraft cruiser and six destroyers began the journey from Alexandria.
Supporting the convoy were three light cruisers and four destroyers,
as well as another force of destroyers.  A cruiser based at Malta also
sortied to provide assistance.

        An Italian submarine spotted the convoy and the Italians responded
swiftly, sending two heavy and one light cruiser with four destroyers from
Messina, and the 15-inch gun battleship "Littorio" and four destroyers from
Taranto, to intercept the British.  The Italian forces were spotted by a
British submarine and the convoy was ordered south to delay or avoid contact.
At sea, the weather was rough.  On March 23, 1942, at 2:24PM, the Italian
cruisers found the British, who turned away, under smoke.  The Italians
did likewise, hoping to draw the British onto "Littorio".  Not observing
a battleship, the British followed.  At 4:18PM, "Littorio" joined the
cruisers.

        By now, there was a 30 mph wind, high seas and mist, and the
British continued making smoke.  Admiral Iachino kept his forces between
the convoy and Malta, avoiding the smoke, but closing the range.  The
opposing destroyer forces exchanged attacks.  By 7:00PM, as darkness
closed in, the action concluded.  Iachino turned northwards, to home,
while the British forces turned east, back to Alexandria.  That night
the storm worsened and the Italians lost two destroyers which foundered
on the way home.  The convoy, escorted by two cruisers and six destroyers
headed back toward Malta.  Due to the Italian action, the convoy was still
at sea the next morning and suffered losses due to air attacks and only
limited tonnage reached the island.

        The Italians had performed well and suffered minimal losses and
those were to the weather, not the British.  Again British operations were
hindered by the lack of a carrier.  The engagement became known as the
Second Battle of Sirte.

        Meanwhile, in North Africa, after building up its supplies, the
Axis ground forces recommenced their offensive in May 1942 and by the
end of June, were within 100 kilometers of Alexandria and the Suez Canal.
These successes were directly related to the continued pressure on Malta.
In April and May, the British made great efforts to reinforce the island's
air defense, flying in Spitfires from carriers, including the U.S.S. "Wasp".
However, the Axis pressure continued.

        During June, 1942, the situation in the Mediterranean was favorable
for the Axis.  Rommel's forces stood at El Alamein, Malta was under attack
and neutralized as an offensive base, and the Italian Navy was seeing convoys
through successfully.  However, with the US in the war, the balance was
shifting and it was clear that little time remained for the Axis to resolve
the situation before American strength began to exert influence.

        When provisioned and supplied, Malta stood as a bastion from which
offensive strikes could be launched against Axis convoys.  The Italo-German
command recognized that the best solution for neutralizing the island was
to occupy it.  A joint air and amphibious operation involving German
paratroopers and Italian marines was planned, but at Rommel's urging,
it was temporarily postponed so he could continue his advance towards
Egypt with no diminution of supplies.

        Malta was in desperate need of supplies, by this time.  It was
planned to run convoys from both Alexandria and Gibraltar in June in the
hopes that the Axis would spread their resources too thinly to intercept
either effectively.  The convoy from Alexandria consisted of nine merchant
ships and a tanker, escorted by eight cruisers and twenty-two destroyers.
The convoy was spotted on June 13, shortly after sailing and was subjected
to several air attacks.  On the 14th, "Littorio", "Veneto", and six
destroyers in one group and four cruisers and four destroyers in a second
group sailed to intercept the convoy.  The Italians were spotted and the
convoy turned away and loitered while air attacks were made on the Italians
without success.  On the morning of June 15, the heavy cruiser "Trento"
was hit by a torpedo.  This convinced the British that the Italians had
been stopped and they turned again towards Malta.  High level bombing
attacks continued against the Italians and, at 8:16AM, "Littorio" took
a bomb hit from an American B-24 on her forward turret with no damage.
The British convoy was harassed by submarines and motor torpedo boats
and, when informed that the Italians were still coming on, turned back
to Alexandria.  Later that day, "Trento" sank after taking a second
torpedo hit and "Littorio" was hit by a torpedo around 11:30PM without
sustaining significant damage.

        The convoy from Gibraltar sailed on June 12 and included six
merchantmen with strong close escort and a covering force of a battleship,
two small carriers, and eight destroyers.  The Italians decided to counter
the convoy with light units from Sicily, supported by air attacks and a
cruiser division.   The cruisers attacked on June 15, near the island of
Pantelleria, with great tenacity and accuracy.  Only two freighters
survived the gauntlet of attacks to deliver their supplies to Malta.

        These convoy engagements, preventing large-scale resupply of
Malta, are known as the Battles of Mid-June.  They were clear Axis
victories, won in large part by the Italian Navy.

        During these engagements, on June 14, 1942, the latest Littorio
class battleship, "Roma", was handed over to the Navy and immediately
began crew training in the Adriatic.  The ship was identical to her
sisters except for a higher bow with greater sheer.  The fourth Littorio
class ship, "Impero", was still under construction and towed to Trieste
in order to avoid air attack while construction continued.  Construction,
however, was soon suspended and her only armament was a number of
anti-aircraft machine guns.
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
How can you be the communications officer when you aren't communicatin'?
You're more like a military censor!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 26 Oct 1994 12:35:52 -0500
From:    Drew Halevy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: Regia Marina, Part 5

Dear Mr. Barone,

What is sheer?-Thanks-Drew

Drew  Philip Halevy      |  Forward he cried, from the rear,
Graduate Student         |  and the front ranks died.
Department of History    |  General sat, and the lines on the map,
University of Arkansas   |  moved from side to side.
[email-masked]    |  Us and Them-Pink Floyd

On Wed, 26 Oct 1994, Barone wrote:

> began crew training in the Adriatic.  The ship was identical to her
> sisters except for a higher bow with greater sheer.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 26 Oct 1994 12:40:34 -0500
From:    Cheryl Kaye Bryant <[email-masked]>
Subject: Trial Lawyer needed for school interview.

Sorry to take up space here, but one of my students is having difficulty
finding an interview subject through other computer means, so I have
offered to search in the two main listservers to which I belong.

Thanks in advance

C.K.

-----Forwarded-----

I am seeking to interview a trial lawyer.  This interview is an
assignment for my English 180 (Frosh English) at Western Illinois
University.  The interview should not take more than 2 posts [teacher
adds comment - perhaps up to 5 e-mail exchanges].  If you are willing to
take a little of your time to help me with this interview please write to
me at my e-mail address provided below.   I look forward to hearing from
you soon.

Thank you,

Adrienne Schultz
[email-masked]
     ^--(one not ell)
*******************************************************************
"The Riskier the road, the greater the profit."    / C.K. Bryant
        The 62nd Rule of Acquisition               / W.I.U. English
*******************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 26 Oct 1994 18:49:26 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ME163

On Mon, 24 Oct 1994, Drew Halevy wrote:

> I was watching WINGS today and they were talking about the ME163. They
> said that the 163 suffered as many losses on the ground from refueling as
> they did in combat. Does anyone have an figures on these losses. Also, it

The Me 163 was one of the 400+ aircraft types that Eric 'Winkle' Brown
flew -- unpowered, as was a wise decision. He quotes a breakdown of the
losses, from German sources, as follows: combat losses, 5%; inflight fire,
or control loss in a dive, 15%; take-off and landing accidents, 80%.

The problem was not refuelling; it was the fuel itself. The Walter HWK
509 rocket engine used to liquid fuels, T-stoff and C-stoff, that were
each dangerous in itself and reacted with a violent explosion if they were
mixed. Starting the engine, on the ground or in flight, had to be done
very, very carefully. Any fault in the fuel system would cause an
explosion.

This was combined with an unhappy choice of landing gear: the
Me 163 took off on jettisonable wheels --- they could bounce back to the
aircraft if jettisoned incorrectly! --- and landed on a retractable skid.
A rough landing, or one with the skid in a wrong position, was likely to
break the back of the pilot, or cause a fuel explosion. A crash landing
would of course have even worse consequences. Even if the fuels were not
mixed, they were quite capable of killing the pilot if they leaked into
the cockpit.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 26 Oct 1994 12:51:49 -0500
From:    Drew Halevy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ME163

In the program, they pointed out that the fuel tanks sat on either side
of the pilot, so that flying the plane was quite a risk-Drew

Drew  Philip Halevy      |  Forward he cried, from the rear,
Graduate Student         |  and the front ranks died.
Department of History    |  General sat, and the lines on the map,
University of Arkansas   |  moved from side to side.
[email-masked]    |  Us and Them-Pink Floyd

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 26 Oct 1994 15:06:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Massacre

The Associated Press is reporting that two former German army
officers, Wolfgang Lehnigk-Emden and Karl Shuster, were convented
Tuesday in absentia and sentenced to life in prison for ordering
the massacre of 22 Italians in World War II.  Lehnigk-Emden had
been released by a German court in January after ruling that the
statue of limitations had expired for him to be indicted.

The massacre occurred on 13 Oct 43 at Caiazzo near Naples.  Most of
the victims were women and children who were shot, bayoneted or
killed with hand grenades; their crime was that they tried to
signal approaching Allied troops.  Lehnigk-Emden was a lieutenant
and Shuster a sergeant at the time of the massacre.  Lehnigk-Emden
is believed to be living near Koblenz, Germany; the whereabouts of
Shuster is unknown.

The delay in prosecuting these two men was caused by US forces
apparently misspelling Lehnigk-Emden's name; it wasn't until 1990
that his correct name was found in Italian records.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 26 Oct 1994 16:21:08 -0400
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MEDIA:Mustangs Found

On Wed, 26 Oct 1994, James E Irwin wrote:
-interesting stuff on mustangs deleted-

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
>  Defense Personnel Support Center        [email-masked]
>  2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
>  Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678
>
>                      "Never in the field of human conflict
>                      was so much owed by so many to so few."
>                                Winston S. Churchill
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
James, it is probably just my poor memory, but didn't Churchill say
"Never in the field of human conflict have so many owed so much to so
few"? Just wondering. Cheers,
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 26 Oct 1994 14:04:51 -0400
From:    Philip Gray <[email-masked]>
Subject: Call for Papers - Women in the Military

Please post the following:

CALL FOR PAPERS

WOMEN IN THE MILITARY

D'Youville College
Buffalo, New York
4 March 1994

You are cordially invited to submit proposals for a papers or panel
(3 related papers) on the subject of "Women in the Military."  Topics
can cover any aspect of the subject:  the role of women in the military
and/or service academies, the role of women in combat, the issue of
discrimination against women in the military, etc.  Papers might also
consider the role of women in the military health professions, and the
recent experiences of women in the military (e.g., Vietnam, Desert Storm).
Papers with an historical and/or cross cultural approach are welcome.

Individual papers will be allotted approximately 30 minutes including
questions.  Panels will be allowed a longer time.  Publication of a
selection of the papers may be arranged.

Address inquiries and proposal abstracts (300 words), completed papers,
or panel suggestions to:

Dr Philip Gray
Division of Liberal Arts (Sociology)
D'Youville College
320 Porter Avenue
Buffalo, NY  14201-1084
Phone:  716.881.3200 (x6542)
FAX:  716.881.7600
Internet Address:  [email-masked]

Deadline for Abstracts is  30 NOVEMBER 1994

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 26 Oct 1994 17:07:32 -0400
From:    Peter Smith <[email-masked]>
Subject: Sheer (Was: Regia Marina, Part 5)

On Wed 26 Oct 1994 12:35:52 -0500, Drew Halevy <[email-masked]> asked:
>> began crew training in the Adriatic.  The ship was identical to her
>> sisters except for a higher bow with greater sheer.
> What is sheer?

Sheer describes the way a a ship's topsides (the sides of the hull) do or
don't curve down from a high bow to a lower point amidships.  Ships with
a bow rather higher than the midship and aft topsides are said to have a
pronounced sheer, or, since it's usuall pleasing to the eye, a nice sheer.
Ships with topsides the same height all the way forward are said to have no
sheer or a straight sheer.  Of WWII-vintage ships, the American IOWA and
the Japanese YAMATO had pronounced sheer; the British KGV and German
pocket-battleships did not.  The advantage of the high bow and resulting
sheer was to allow the ship to drive into head seas without having the
forepart of the ship swept too often when she buries her bow in a wave.  The
advantage of the low bow and straight sheer is that the foremost turret can
fire straight ahead at a lower angle and thus engage close-in targets
dead ahead.

If I remember correctly, the BISMARK and her kind were originally built with
little sheer and a low bow.  They were subsequently retrofitted with a
"North Atlantic" bow -- higher, to give better seakeeping characteristics.
--
Peter Smith -- Data General Corp., Westboro MA, USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 26 Oct 1994 19:13:08 -0500
From:    Terrence Lindell <[email-masked]>
Subject: WWII Memoirs

I teach a course on the history of WWII and like to use
personal narratives as a way of having students work with
primary sources.  The last time I taught the class I used
E. B. Sledge, WITH THE OLD BREED AT PELELIU AND OKINAWA and
Alfons Heck, A CHILD OF HITLER:  GERMANY IN THE DAYS WHEN
GOD WORE A SWASTIKA.  I used Michael J. Lyons's WORLD WAR II:
A SHORT HISTORY for my textbook.  It is a four-week class and
I have students do a paper or book review so I can't add much
more in the way of reading.

Does anyone have ideas for other personal narratives that I
might consider using?  I'm looking for things currently
available in paperback and I am interested in giving students
a variety of perspectives.  I prefer works that cover a
longer period of time rather than a brief episode as I can
get more mileage with them.  The last time I offered the
course (two years ago) I looked for but could not find
anything available that represented the Japanese perspective
well.

Thanks!

Terry Lindell
Department of History
Wartburg College
Waverly, Iowa  50677
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 26 Oct 1994 20:53:12 EDT
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HYPO: The "Big" what-

Dear Ed,

Thanks for the complement; better dazzle than fizzle, which is what my
three questions at the end of my response to Gregg and William seem to
have done. I'm not sure anyone thought I was being serious. I was.
Who *did* the Wehrmacht ever beat? Poland? Yugoslavia? Greece? Norway?
Denmark? Holland? A French Army so C2 antiquated and politically devided
it probably couldn't have stopped the Italians? The list reads like that        list of countries Hitler read to the Reichstag in 1939 in sarcastic
response to Roosevelt.

Regarding the German detection of testing, I think they would have had
to be looking for it, and I see no reason they would have been. Their
strategic intelligence was horrible, and just in case we could have             moved testing to a slightly more earthquake prone area like Nevada
to cover the seismic shock, which would have been the only evidence I can
think of that they might have picked up in the course of looking for
something else. German nuclear development seems to have stalled out            at an early stage. If it was because they couldn't do it, I'm not sure          their egos would have admitted anyone else could. If it was to keep the         Nazis from getting a bomb, as some have suggested (not too convincingly,
from the three books I've read on it- haven't seen the Cassidy?
Heisenberg bio yet), it raises an entirely different and potentially
fascinating scenario: German scientists and German military working
to overthrow the Nazis and do a deal with the Americans before the US
can use the weapon they now have and Germany doesn't. Question: what
terms could they offer that we might accept? I'm still back to
"Liberty Day," 4 July 1948.

Interestingly, the man I think got the entire picture right is                  Len Deighton, in SS-GB, where he has one of the German senior officers          condemning his own leadership as short-sighted because the American raid        on the captured British nuclear facility will end bickering between             German factions for control of development, thus making everyone happy.         And "the Americans will build the bomb and win the war they will start          the minute they are ready." I mention this because the scenario I laid out      was influenced by Deighton's outcome. Credit where credit is due, and I
hope I haven't ruined the ending of a very good read for those who haven't
gotten to it yet.

On a related theme, David Holloway's new book, STALIN AND THE BOMB,
from Yale U.P., is better than its spectacular reviews. Almost as good
as WAR PLAN ORANGE.

Regards,

Henry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 26 Oct 1994 21:02:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 27 OCT 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
FRIDAY, 27 OCTOBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 7 B-24s weather-abort an attempt to fly cover
for a naval task force.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, fighters bomb and strafe
the town of Mengmao and nearby hill positions, river traffic, troops, and
horses from Tanchuk to Tengyun, bridges NE of Hsinganhsien, the town of
Kaotienhsu, troops in the Kweilin area, rail traffic W of Puchi, and
airfields at Siangtan and Changsha.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): HQ Tenth AF is reassigned from AAF,
India-Burma Sector to AAF, India-Burma Theater.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 690: 2 B-17s and 7 B-24s
drop leaflets on 38 locations in the Netherlands, France and Germany during
the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Brigadier General William L
Richardson reassumes command of the IX Air Defense Command.
  Adverse weather prevents all operations except patrols by XIX Tactical Air
Command and supply dropping missions (to VI Corps near Saint-Die, France) by
the XII Tactical Air Command. In Belgium, the 22d Fighter Squadron, 36th
Fighter Group, moves from Juvincourt, France to Le Culot with P-47s; the
412th Fighter Squadron, 373d Fighter Group, moves from Reims, France to Le
Culot. In France, the 394th Fighter Squadron, 367th Fighter Group, moves from
Clastres to Juvincourt with P-38s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Bad weather limits operations
to 5 weather reconnaissance flights.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): Weather curtails operations;
fighter-bombers on armed reconnaissance in the Genoa-Novi Ligure-Turin area
hit communications and transportation targets.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 2 B-24s on armed reconnaissance from Saipan
Island bomb Yap Island. During the night of 27/28 Oct a B-24 on a snooper
mission hits Iwo Jima Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: In the Philippine
Islands, 40+ fighter-bombers, operating in 3 waves, hit shipping off Cebu
Island and W of Mactan Island. B-24s attack Malili and Palopo on Celebes
Island.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

27/0056Z OCT

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 26 Oct 1994 21:36:14 EDT
From:    Cassady Craft <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HYPO: The "Big" what-

Henry,

In regards to the Germans "not beating a first class opponent", I have a
question.  Who would you consider to be first class in 1939-42?  Suffice it
to say there were probably no opponents that the Germans could possibly
grapple with that were "first Class" even had the US provided the Germans the
opportunity before Torch.  I guess that you may consider that the Germans
were simply the best, if it be the best of a poor batch.  However, later in the
war when perhaps there were first class opponents, the Germans were able to
hold their own quite nicely considering the array of power that combined
against them.  On various levels, excepting only strategic, the Wehrmacht was
able to inflict costly defeats on any and all of its enemies.  Besides that,
by soldiers of all nationalities at the time, was a much feared and respected
opponent.  As far as small units go, the Germans repeated performed miricles
of battlefield performance and also in reconstruction of "destroyed" units
around escaped cadres--even after having lost the cream of several generations
already.  I would argue that by the end of the war the GI was the best soldier
of the European war (and the Marine in the Pacific) because he was the best
led (at all ranks and political leadership) and the best equiped by far.
Most importantly, the GI had precisely that attribute that Rommel alledgedly
observed, that the GI was the poorest in the first engagement, but had learned
more in less time than any other enemy by the time of the second.  Based on
this, you might perceive that I would give some of the credit of the GI's
ability to his Wehrmacht teacher; and you would be correct.

Thanks for the thoughts and provokation!

Cassady Craft
Department of Political Science
University of Georgia
e-mail [email-masked]
or
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 26 Oct 1994 21:20:27 EST
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <[email-masked]>
Subject: Another List of some interest.

Bounce by Larry J (If captured or killed, I will disavow all knowledge of
my actions.)

Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 16:28:44 -0500 (CDT)
From: Monte Turner <[email-masked]>
To: Deremi-l <deremi-l@ukanaix>
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Drive for Members and Announcements (fwd)
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>

-------------------------ATTENTION ATTENTION -------------------------------
All those interesting in Classical and Medieval Military History

                        DE RE MILITARI

This post is my electronic effort in a membership drive for the De re
militari Association.  It is also a call for all members online to allow
me to double check their information and note that they can be reached
electronically.

        De re militari is a professional non-profit association established to
foster and develop interest in the study of classical and medieval
military affairs.  To meet this goal De re militari seeks to facilitate
a greater exchange of information and ideas on classical and medieval
military affairs though lectures, forums, workshops, conferences,
publications, discussion lists and internet access.

        De re militari officially came into existence in May of 1991 at
the 26th International Congress on Medieval Studies in Kalamazoo,
Michigan.  Since that time this Association has sponsored a number of the
(far and away) most popular sessions at Kalamazoo.  And while, besides
these very valuable sessions, the Association has remained rather quiet,
those times have now changed.  The additional benefits of membership make
this Association both exciting and state of the art.

        The discussion list DEREMI-L (at  ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu) has been in
existence for a number of months.  This list carries on valuable
scholarly debates and question/answer sessions through e-mail.

        Also, a scholarly (bi-anual) Newsletter is being prepared for
distribution to members in late November.  This Newsletter will include
articles, reviews, announcements and additional information valuable to
those interested in Classical and Medieval Military Affairs.

        In addition to this the Association will soon be a part of the
HNSOURCE Info-Server at UKANAIX.CC.UKANS.EDU (type history after telneting
to ukanaix).  Planned inclusions on HNSOURCE are:
        @       The Association membership list and directory,
        @       The DEREMI-L subscriber directory,
        @       The Association electronic Newsletter,
        @       Online (Downloadable) Publications (First project in this
                area is a compete edition of Vegetius himself),
        @       Edited Valuable Discussions from DEREMI-L
        @       Links to addition internet sources of PARTICULAR interest
                to the Association members

        Lets face it, not every scholarly Association has this much to
offer.  Membership dues are presently only $5 per year.  So, if you are
at all interested in the academic advancement of Classical and Medieval
Military Affairs, join us now!  to be sure to get the upcoming
Newsletter.  If you are not a member and would like to be, or if you are
a member and would be SO KIND (PLEASE!?!?!?! send it electronically even)
send the following form (or a note) and your $5 check for dues to

                                MONTE TURNER
                            2913 UNIVERSITY DRIVE
                             LAWRENCE, KS 66049
                                    USA

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                De re militari

     Association for the Study of Classical and Medieval Military Affairs

NAME ______________________________________________________________________
        (LAST NAME)             (FIRST NAME)            (MIDDLE INITIAL)

CURRENT STATUS ____________________________________________________________
(Position or Title)

DEGREES HELD ______________________________________________________________
(What and Where)

FULL E-MAIL ADDRESS ______________________________________________________

HOME ADDRESS _____________________________________________________________

        __________________________________________________________________

        __________________________________________________________________

TEL. NO(S). (____)_______________________ (____)__________________________
                        (Home)                          (Office)

FAX NO. (____)__________________________

INSTITUTIONAL ADDRESS  __________________________________________________

        _________________________________________________________________

CHECK HERE FOR MAIL TO INSTITUTION ADDRESS _______

AREAS OF SPECIALIZATION AND INTEREST ___________________________________

        ________________________________________________________________

MEMBER OF ?  ___________________________________________________________
(Other Associations)
                        ________________________________________________

        ________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 26 Oct 1994 23:42:05 EDT
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HYPO: The "Big" what-

Dear Cassady,

Thanks for the response. I would agree the European armies of 1939-42
were a rum lot, but I'm not sure the Wehrmacht were better than the
British at this time, on equal terms. In France, the BEF was swamped
when its flanks (non-British) collapsed, but it conducted a coherent
withdrawal to the sea, winning engagements along the way. Much has been
made of the "24 hour" delay at Dunkirk, but what if the Royal Navy had
provided gunfire support with available RAF cover a day or two earlier?
Stephen Ambrose has pointed out that if a destroyer and a tank fire at          each other simultaneously and both hit, only one shoots again.
I think a similar withdrawal might have been possible without the delay.
Crete is a solid plus for the Germans, but North Africa was a wash.
If O'Connor is not captured, does Rommel run rampant?

The German were feared because they created an image of dominance against
weak foes. We had a similar post-WWII image of the "ten-foot tall Russians"
that was equally false. Once other armies overcame the image, the Germans
lost big-time. The Russians performed even greater miracles of tenacity
and unit reconstruction than the Germans, and the Americans, after
Kasserine, fought as well as either. Offhand, after Kasserine I can think
of only one action where a large American force could not meet its mission
objective against the Wehrmacht- on the Rapido, in 1943. You might want to
add Anzio, although from limited knowledge I think the failure there was        one man, not the organization. In the Ardennes several well-equipped,           experienced German armies swamped two green American divisions,                 but the Americans conducted a text-book containment, holding the flanks         and the road junctions against incredible odds. Nothing any army attempted      in the war equalled Patton's disconnect of a full army from an eastward         offensive, left-wheel, and resumption of the attack on a 90-degree shift        of axis, all in a matter of a few days under heavy pressure.

The Germans started the war with three advantages over their opponents,
better doctrine, better operational leadership, and better unit cohesion.       They were technically inferior on the ground, lacked strategic vision,
lacked adequate logistics for any extended operations, and lacked any
intelligence but tactical. The Germans could fight tenaciously, but so
did the Turks in WWI. That did not make them a great army. The German High
Command was never able to get its act together to fight a total war.
It consistently planned in terms of short campaigns based on maneuver-
a style of war that had gone out with Napoleon. The German General Staff
acted as if they had learned nothing from one hundred years of military
history, including their own WWI experience, other than the need for
tactical and operational mobility. Finally, in an army that made a
totem of planning, there was never a "Plan B." In the end, they were
so badly outthought, as well as outfought, that their intelligence in the
west was completely suborned, and we now know that the one candle they
held out as an achievement in the east, the Gehlen organization, was
largely a charade. The Russians were playing him like a bull fiddle,
during the war and after.

There have been great German armies- Frederick's, Moltke the Elder's,
and the Kaiser's. I just don't see the Wehrmacht in that league.

Regards,
Henry

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 25 Oct 1994 to 26 Oct 1994
*************************************************