Subject: WWII-L Digest - 14 Oct 1994 to 15 Oct 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 16 Oct 1994 00:00:35 -0400

There are 12 messages totalling 475 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. QUES: troopships
  2. INF: USN Chronology 10-15-94
  3. ROMANIAN VOLUNTEERS OF THE WAFFEN-SS (book title)
  4. Rudder & Pointe du Hoc
  5. INF: 50 Years Ago - 16-OCT-1944
  6. THE WAFFEN-SS and the German Army (3)
  7. Savo Island
  8. Rumanian Army in WW2; "Terror Tanks" at Odessa
  9. Publication AFV News
 10. HELP!--Re: France "what-if" novel

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Date:    Fri, 14 Oct 1994 15:10:01 -0400
From:    "David a. Vandenbroucke" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: QUES: troopships

I'm sure someone more knowledgable will weigh in shortly, but I believe
it was simply a matter of the the luxury liners being so fast that they
were considered safe from U-boats.  However, I don't think the QE2 was one
of them, as I believe that she was built after WWII.  You are perhaps
thinking of the Queen Mary and the Queen Elizabeth.

Come to think of it, Liz II was at the time a teenage ambulance driver,
and her dad was still king.  Thus, it seems unlikely they'd name a boat
after her.

--Dav

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Date:    Sat, 15 Oct 1994 04:00:18 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 10-15-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
10/15 Sun. Aircraft from carrier task group (Rear Adm. R. E.
           Davison) bomb targets in the Manila area, Luzon, P.
           I.
           Coast Guard Cutter EASTWIND (AG-279), captures German
           trawler, EXTERNSTEINE, off the northeast coast of
           Greenland.
           Command designated Minecraft, Pacific Fleet (Rear
           Adm. A. Sharp), is established.
            United States naval vessel damaged:
             Carrier FRANKLIN (CV-13), by horizontal bomber,
              Philippine Islands area,
              16 d. 29'N., 123 d. 57'E.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

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Date:    Sat, 15 Oct 1994 07:58:41 -0500
From:    Greg Kelley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ROMANIAN VOLUNTEERS OF THE WAFFEN-SS (book title)

Terry,

The 10th Company of the 10th SS-Infanterie Regiment "Westland" (of
SS-Division WIKING) was comprised of Volksdeutche from Rumania.  It was
commanded by SS-Obersturmbannfuhrer Hans Albert von Lettow-Vorbeck,
nephew of the famous Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck of WW1 fame.  Hand Albert
was also designated to lead the Flemish Legion in WW2, but was killed in
action before assuming command.

primary source: HITLER'S SECOND ARMY by Alfred Vagts.
                                     Infantry Journal/Penguin Books, 1943.

NB: according to THE ROMANIAN ARMY OF WORLD WAR 2 (Mark Axworthy & Horia
Serbanescu, Osprey Books, 1991), no fewer than 54,000 Rumanian
Volksdeutsche served in the SS, with another 15,000 in the German Army
and Organisation Todt. (others remained as members of the Rumanian armed
forces proper)

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          [email-masked]

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Date:    Sat, 15 Oct 1994 08:19:48 -0500
From:    Cooper Addison <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Rudder & Pointe du Hoc

I'm afraid this reply is somewhat off the top of my head since I'm at
work and don't have any reference materials here. I just finished reading the
book *Rudder's Rangers* last summer and as I remember, the initial
opposition wasn't too strong although there were casualties during the
scaling of the cliffs.  The heavy casualties came while the
Bn was attempting to occupy blocking positions inland and during the
reduction of fortified positions around the artillery bunkers.  If you
want specific documentation post again and I will dig the book out.
Incidentally, my reading on this action led me to further research on the
2nd Ranger Bn and I feel they were probably the best of the six Ranger Bns.
You might enjoy reading about the battle of hill 400 during the Hurtgen
Forest. This may well have been the paramount Ranger action of the
war. For a brief, slightly dramatic account, see Whiting's *The Battle of
Hurtgen Forest*.

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Date:    Sat, 15 Oct 1994 06:27:46 -0700
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 16-OCT-1944

On 16-OCT-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The Canadian 2nd Division captures Woensdrecht. The Canadian
3rd Division continues its attacks on the Breskens pocket. In southeast
Holland the British 3rd Division reaches the suburbs of Venray, half way
between Helmond and the German frontier. Bitter street fighting continues in
Aachen. The US XIX Corps and VII Corps link up completing the encirclement of
the city. In the US 7th Army sector, the 45th and 36th Divisions approach
Bruyeres. The 3rd Algerian Division and French 1st Armoured Division begin an
offensive to break through the German lines in the Vosges.

Eastern Front - The 3rd Belorussian Front is sent to attack East Prussia. In
Yugoslavia there is violent street fighting in Belgrade.

Italian Front - The South African 6th Armoured Division opens an offensive
northeast of Grizzana. The II Corps begins the last stage of the attack
towards Bologna. In the eastern sector, units of the 10th Indian Division
establish a bridgehead across the Savio.

Peleliu - The 321st Infantry, reinforced by units of the 323rd, continue its
efforts to eliminate the Japanese resistance on Mount Umurbrogol.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "Facts On File Yearbook 1944,
Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.netcom.com in directory /pub/jbd and can
be accessed via the WWW by URL: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/jbd/ww2.html. If you
have difficulty accessing the Netcom FTP server, please keep trying because it
stays very busy.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis     [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Date:    Sat, 15 Oct 1994 11:38:17 -0500
From:    Oliver Bonham-Carter <[email-masked]>
Subject: THE WAFFEN-SS and the German Army

What is the main difference between the Waffen-SS and the regular German
Army? Is it uniform, social class, rank, or something like that?

[email-masked]
 "This is it... so read it!"

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Date:    Sat, 15 Oct 1994 11:50:35 -0700
From:    Jim Curry <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: THE WAFFEN-SS and the German Army

The Waffen SS was the military arm of the Nazi Party. It originated as the
elite branch of the SA,the "brownshirts". It provided the protective guard
detachments for Hitler and other top figures in the Nazi hierarchy.  The
Wehrmacht was very wary of the Waffen SS and prior to 1939 it existed only
in regimental-size units only. These SS formations participated in the
campaigns in Poland and on the Western Front,doing well enough that they
were increased to divisional size. The German conquests made it possible
for the SS to recruit from the "Volksdeutsch"(ethnic Germans) outside the
Reich, plus "nordic" Nazi sympathizers in Scandinavia, the Netherlands,
Belgium and France. After the invasion of Russia large contingents of
"Ost" volunteers joined the Waffen SS,many of whom were not remotely
members of the "Master Race."
The wartime Waffen SS grew into a huge and very diverse force of very mixed
fighting value.  Its best formations were superb troops used to spearhead
attacks and make last stands.  Many of the ethnic formations were useless
for anything but massacring civilians.  Even the best SS units were brutal.
All the German battlefield atrocities on the Western Front I am aware of
were committed by SS troops.
Waffen SS had their own distinctive ranks and uniforms (they were the first
troops in the world to wear camouflage ) but usually served under German
Army command. Relations between SS troops  and regular German troops
were often poor as  SS had priority for new weapons and equipment.
Jim Curry

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Date:    Sat, 15 Oct 1994 12:14:26 -0700
From:    John Riegsecker <[email-masked]>
Subject: Savo Island

>Date:         Sat, 15 Oct 1994 08:55:04 +1523847
>Reply-To:     [email-masked]
>Sender:       World War II Discussion List <[email-masked]>
>From:         Kevin Noonan <[email-masked]>
>Subject:      Savo Island
>To:           Multiple recipients of list WWII-L <[email-masked]>
>
>Folks
>
>There was an item (I saw only half of it :( on TV last night about a
>reunion of HMAS Canberra survivors.  Apparently they have determined by
>investigating the wreck that she was sunk by American torpedoes launched
>from a USN destroyer (name started with a "B" I think) at the Battle of
>Savo Island.  The holes were in the side of the boat that had been facing
>the USN.
>

That would be Bagley (Blue and Buchan are the other two whose name start
with B).  Bagley fired four torpedoes which may have hit something.
However, in reading about the action it is not clear how anybody knew
who was on what side of any ship.  (Given American torpedo problems at
that time they probably wouldn't have exploded anyhow)  It was certainly
true that friendly ships fired on each other.

>The significant claim was that the USN/RAN knew all along but kept it
>hushed up during the war because of the problems it would have caused.
>

Anytime you lose 4 cruisers and 1,000 men there is going to be lots of
finger pointing.  Certianly there was plenty of blame to go around.
Turner, in overall command certainly made lots of mistakes, but escaped
blame.  Crutchly RAN, deserves much of the blame too.  One charge that
has been made over the years is that an Australian pilot had tea before
reporting on the approaching Japanese ships.  A recent book that
addresses some of these points (particularly the "tea" charge) is:

_Disaster in the Pacific_, Dennis and Peggy Warner, Naval Institute
Press.

>Anyone got any detail or comments?  (I know virtually nothing about Savo
>Island)

On page 131 of _Disaster in the Pacific_ it says that Canberra was under
attack for under 3 minutes and never fired a shot.  She was hit by 28
large-caliber shells, ripping holes from 18 inches to 6 feet across.
Her spotting float plane was burning (true of most of the crusiers that
were sunk).

John Riegsecker
Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
University of Puget Sound

[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 15 Oct 1994 15:51:00 -0500
From:    Greg Kelley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Rumanian Army in WW2; "Terror Tanks" at Odessa

quoting verbatim....

The advance of the German and Rumanian Armies through Southern Russia in
the summer of 1941 pinneda portion of the Red Army into the peninsula
around the port of Odessa on the Black Sea.  Rather than stage a hasty
and potentially costly evacuation, the Odessa Defense Area (OOR) was
formed to defend the city until a safe evacuation was feasible.  The
forces within the OOR were entirely without tanks and were in a desperate
need of armoured support.

In early August, several of the marine shipyards and factories in Odessa
began efforts to manufacture improvised arms for the OOR.  The "January
Uprising" Factory located a small trainload of worn-out BT-7 and T-37
tanks which had been sent to Odessa for melting down, and succeeded in
cannibalising enough part to get a few of them running.  Nevertheless, by
the month's end only 2 of them were still left in operation.  In the
meantime, the factory had begun work on two armoured trains, Bronyepoyezd
Nr.21 and Nr.22 "Za Rodinu" [`for the motherland'].  Someone even
suggested that a few tramcars be armoured as mini-armoured trains for use
in the fighting at the city's outskirts.  In the middle of August, P.K.
Romanov, chief engineer of the "January Uprising" Factory, and Capt V.G.
Kogan, an artillery engineer from Naval HQ, proposed that artillery
tractors be fitted out as improvised tanks.  The OOR Defense Council
looked at the project with great skepticism [THERE'S an understatement]
but in view of their desperation provided Kogan with an order instructing
all city industries to cooperate with him, and setting aside 3 STZ-5
artillery tractors for him to experiment with.  Ten days later, the first
"Tank Odesskikh" (Odessa Tank) was completed and two more followed.
These were boxy, ungainly looking things, surmounted by a sinlge turret.
The armour was ordinary naval steel laminated together with a layer of
neoprene or wood in between.  The first two tanks were machinegun-armed
and the third was armed with an ancient 37mm Model 15R mountain gun
scrounged up from some godforsaken arsenal.  The tanks were of all welded
construction and had a 3-5 man crew, consisting of a driver and
co-driver, a turret gunner and possibly two men in the hull who could
fire small arms through the side gun ports.  The crews were mostly
volunteers from the factory, or sailors from beached ships in the port.

In late August, a rot (platoon) of the three tanks, plus a BT-7 was
formed under Sr. Lt. N.I. Yudin and sent to reinforce an attack on
Rumanian positions near Dalnik in the southern sector by the 25th
"Chapayev" Division.  The tanks made a horrible racket on their way to
the front, but proved unexpectedly successful.  In fact, their
unanticipated presence led the Rumanians to abandon their forward
trenches.  The tanks crews soon dubbed the tractors "Tank NI" for "Na Ispug"
(roughly "Terroriser Tanks").  As expected, the laminate armour was proof
against shrapnel and small arms, but one tank was hit by a 37mm AT gun
and the round went clean through.  The OOR Military Council was impressed
enough to order 70 such taks built, though in fact only 68 were
eventually completed.  The NI Tanks were manufactured at the "January
Uprising" Factory, the "October Revolution" Factory, at the Naval Repair
Plant Nr.1 im.50 Years of the Soviet Ukraine, and the "Red Guards"
Plant.  To the author's knowledge, photos exist of only two of these
vehicles, and so it is hard to judge how standardised these vehicles
were.  These is some film footage of one tank fitted with an old turret
from a twin-turreted T-26, and four view plans of this vehicle are shown
here [sorry, I've no way to reproduce on my terminal--GAK].  one of the
tanks is currently on a pedestal in Odessa, and this one is shown in a
side view here [again, sorry--n/a!].  Both tanks differ enormously in
shape and detail.

Besides Yudin's rot serving with the 25th Division, some of the tractors
served with the 95th Division on the northern sector in early September.
On 17-18 Sept, Col. Tomilov's 157th Division was ferried into Odessa from
Novorossisk.  The existing NI tanks were withdrawn from  the other units
andf two platoons were issued to the 716th Infantry Regt and the 633rd
Infantry Regt.  This unit's records refer to the NI Tanks as
"Bronye-traktor STZ"--STZ armoured tractors.  On 22nd Sept, the 15th
Division launched a successful local attack which netted six Rumanian
Renault tanks amonst other booty.  The 157th Division had 15 real tanks
which were eventually ferried in from Novorossisk, and the NI tanks
reverted back to their original units.  About 35 tanks, mostly NI tanks,
were put back under Sr.Lt. N.I. Yudin's command as the 210th Army Tank
Battalion.  In early October, plans were laid to begin evacuation of
Odessa from the sea.  To keep the Rumanians unaware of the preparations,
a local counteroffensive was planned for 2nd October in the southern
sector around Dalnik and Lenintal.  On that day, the 25th "Chapayev"
Division, 2nd Cavalry Division, and the 384th Regt of the 157th Division
launched their attack supported by Yudin's battalion and a Katyusha
rocket battery.  The NI Tank battalion evantually overran the infantry
and plunged 4 kilometers into the Rumanian lines.  It overran the
Rumanian 8th and 36th Machinegun Battalions and the 1st Battaslion of the
2nd Regt of the Rumanian Border Guard Division.  The battalion reached
Lenintal and overran a Rumanian artillery unit.  In all, 24 guns and some
ammunition limbers were captured, so the tankers attached them to the
ex-artillery tractors and towed them back to the Russian lines along
with a haul of machineguns and mortars.  The 201st Tank Battalion lost
six or seven NI tanks to enemy fire or mechanical failure during the
fight.  During the subsequent evacuation, some artillery tractors were
evacuated to Novorossisk, but the fate of the tractor tanks is not
known.

The NI tanks were not the only armoured tractors to see action in the
summer of 1941.  An unknown number of KhTZ-3 agricultural tractors
were armed with 37mm & 45mm guns and armour by the Khakovskii Tractor
Zavod for the defense of Kharkov.  These have been spuriously
identified in a number of sources as the "SU-45", and a side view plan
of one of these is shown here [well, in the original document, but
again I can't reproduce here--GAK].  Unlike the NI tanks, the driver
and crew was at the rear of the vehicle.

The author would like to thank A. Loder of the Betarchiv and Lt.Col.
James Loop for the photos used [make that unused--sorry!] in this
article.

N. Pustovoitenko, PO MESTAM BOYEVOI SLAVI ODESSI (Odessa, 1976)

N.I. Krylov, NE POMER KNET NIKOGDA (Moscow, 1972)

S.K. Kurkotkin, TYL SOVIETSKIKH VOORRUZHENNYKH SIL V VOV 1941-45g
(Moscow, 1977)

******THE ABOVE WAS REPRODUCED FROM-------

"The Factory Tanks of Odessa" by Steve Zaloga.  AFV NEWS, Vol 14, No. 4
(July 1979)

with an ENORMOUS amount of typing for someone who uses less than the
two-finger method.

I can add for those of us less than conversant in Russian that Krylov's
book was translated into English by Progress Publishers (Moscow) back in
the 1970's under the title GLORY ETERNAL: DEFENCE OF ODESSA 1941.

While the Rumanians suffered horrendous losses in capturing Odessa, not
all of these losses can be attributed to bad leadership or lousy fighting
skills. (many, but not all).  Soviet defenses were, to say the least,
tenacious if not downright crazy (e.g. Terror Tanks).  And before anyone
starts criticising the Rumanians for fleeing from armoured tractor-tanks,
please make sure the lighty-armed infantry of YOUR favourite army NEVER
suffered from "tank fright" themselves.

(yet another fan of the legions of Mihail Lascar heard from....)

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 15 Oct 1994 15:55:01 -0500
From:    Greg Kelley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Publication AFV News

Does anyone out there know when Mr. Bradford's newsletter AFV NEWS folded?
I must confess my subscription lapsed in the mid-1980's but suspect it
ceased publication shortly afterwards.  Is Mr. Bradford still with us, or
has he passed on?  Any ideas where I might be able to track down missing
issues?

Any assistance is much appreciated.

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 15 Oct 1994 16:10:58 -0500
From:    Greg Kelley <[email-masked]>
Subject: HELP!--Re: France "what-if" novel

I saw a comment from someone suggesting a novel in French about a
"what-if" encounter between DeGaulle & Petain which leads to a defiant
stand by the French in 1940 rather than the historical armistice.  Alas,
I seem to have lost the citation & still can't figure how to retrieve it
from the archives.  Could that kind individual re-post or email me directly?

Many thanks in advance.

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 15 Oct 1994 23:49:24 GMT
From:    SYSTEM 0PERATOR <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: THE WAFFEN-SS and the German Army

Jim Curry <[email-masked]> writes:

> All the German battlefield atrocities on the Western Front I am aware of
> were committed by SS troops.

Well actually here are some examples of war crimes, unpublicized, committed
by regular Wehrmacht troops in France in 1940 :

June 17 1940, in the village of Sainte-Suzanne near Montbeliard 1st Panzer division
elements shot 7 surrendered French soldiers of the 61e RR.

In Dounoux, June 19, Kampfgruppe Koll, of 6th Panzer Division, shoot
9 surrendered men of the French 5th BM, without any form of trial.

In Domptail (Vosges), June 20, 20 French prisoners of 21/146 RIF are
executed by elements of 198th Infantry Division. Oberleutnant Schremph was
condemned to death in 1959 but wasn't executed. He may still be living to
this day.

Similarly, June 22, Bruyeres, Vosges, 4 French soliers shot by the Germans.

War crimes in Pulligny (June 21) as well.

I guess many others had no witnesses and will remain unknown. Most of such
crimes occured after some Frenchmen put up some desperate resistance, causing
German losses. The Germans massacred their prisoners.

Arnaud.

(source : "Juin 1940, le mois maudit", by Roger Bruge)

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End of WWII-L Digest - 14 Oct 1994 to 15 Oct 1994
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