Subject: WWII-L Digest - 13 Oct 1994 to 14 Oct 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 15 Oct 1994 00:01:17 -0400

There are 30 messages totalling 1236 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Aircraft in Profile
  2. Research (2)
  3. <No subject given>
  4. INF: 50 Years Ago - 15-OCT-1944
  5. TECH ETO logistics
  6. TACT Re: How Many Bridges Too Far? (2)
  7. your mail (2)
  8. NOST: What my father did in the war. (3)
  9. Looking for woman whose hus/bfriend went to war
 10. TWO QUESTIONS
 11. QUES: troopships (2)
 12. INF: USN Chronology 10-13-94
 13. INF: USN Chronology 10-14-94
 14. INF: Regia Marina, Part 3
 15. ADMIN: Posting policy
 16. BIO:  Wingate (2)
 17. USS Dorchester
 18. Invasion of Crete -- Operation Merkur
 19. WEAP: Bazooka
 20. Untold Stories f/ABTF, Pt. 5
 21. Savo Island
 22. [INF] USAAF 15 OCT 44
 23. Rudder & Pointe du Hoc

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Oct 1994 15:01:28 +1000
From:    Mick Fauchon <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Aircraft in Profile

        Hi, Tim.

> Is anyone on the list familiar with the series of books "Aircraft in
> Profile"?

        Sort of. I'm chasing it up on ILL at the moment. If my info is
correct, it's the old Profile Publications bound into volumes.

  I know it was being published during the 1960's and 70's, but
> don't know if (and when) it ceased.  If it has ceased, what was the last
> volume published?

        If it's the same one, it's finished, because there were only a certain
number of volumes. Can't tell you much moe until I get a list of the contents
pages. I'll try to get back to you when get the info, but that may be a few
weeks.

>
> Also, how about the similar "Warships in Profile"?  How many volumes?

        Sorry, can't tell much except that it looks to be in three volumes,
completed in 1974.

        Hope all of this helps.......

                                                                Cheers,

                                                                Mick.

--                                                                          --
Mick Fauchon                          | Internet: [email-masked]
Reference Section, Auchmuty Library   | Ph  (intl+61+49) 215861
University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA    | Fax (intl+61+49) 215833

     MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
     M                                                                   M
     M  Tasmanian Devil: "#@%!&^*%%...!#@!&**%^@@#$#-+*+*&##@...!!"      M
     M                                                                   M
     M  Yosemite Sam   : "Cut out that Army talk!..Yer in the Navy now!" M
     M                                                                   M
     MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Oct 1994 06:22:45 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Research

On Thu, 13 Oct 1994, Henry Sirotin wrote:
>
> Army studies from Frank Cass Publishers. The 90+ volumes from the History
> Office of the Japanese Defense Ministry have only seen very limited
> translation- chiefly diplomatic sections- in James Morley's books.

These are (all?) available at Library of Congress. I've read parts of
several and found them uneven. The history of the air war in china is
superficial; the history of the air war in SE Asia in 1941-42 is superb.
Of course you need Japanese or a friendly Japanese-speaking associate--
though even without the language you can get a lot from the maps and
tables if you have some patience and willingness to learn basic kanji or
Chinese ideograms (year, numbers, etc). LOC will send them out on
inter-library loan, but many ILL staff will tell you otherwise.

> of histories that were done for MacArthur's HQ by Japanese officers
> in 1946-54. They're only in mimeograph form (there are 180+ of them),
> and somebody should talk the Center for Military History into publishing

The Library of Congress has them on microfilm, and again will loan them
out (for use in your local library only; the reel becomes a reserve item)
if you push hard enough. Many of the monographs appear in facsimile form
in the 15 vol WAR IN ASIA & THE PACIFIC, 1937-1949, Donald Detwiler
editor, NY/London: Garland Publishing Co, 1980. Each volume has an index
to the whole. I have borrowed these so often I think it would have been
cheaper for my library to go out and buy them :-)

Another good Japanese source is the English-language *Japan Times &
Advertiser* published in Tokyo during the war. At LOC.

            - Dan      <[email-masked]>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Oct 1994 06:58:40 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: <No subject given>

Hello, Bonnie!

You might contact the State Department or consult a large library
that would have a copy of the following:

    1. The Trials of the Major War Criminals (43 volumes). This is a
complete transcript of the proceedings.

    Other works:

    Reaching Judgment at Nuremberg by Bradley F. Smith
    Nuremberg Diary by Dr. G. M. Gilbert
    22 Cells in Nuremberg by (?)
    The Nuremberg Mind by (?)
    Nuremberg by Conant

    If you are willing to wait, I will provide you with additional
books and details of works that have appeared, if this is what you
want. The above are off the top of my head, but there are others.

Please advise.

Hope this helps.

Terry

> I am interested in getting all information on the Nurnberg Trials.  I
> would like for them to be on disk or maybe somewhere to be downloaded.
>
> Thanks ahead for the input.
>
> Bonnie
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Oct 1994 05:15:27 -0700
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 15-OCT-1944

On 15-OCT-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The US 104th Division reinforces the Canadian 1st Army,
operating in the north to liberate Antwerp. The German garrison in Aachen is
still holding out against the US 29th Division and 1st Division. A battalion
of the 1st Division succeeds in taking part of Observatory Hill, north of
Aachen. They are then driven out by a German counter-attack.

Eastern Front - The Karelia Front drives the Germans out of the port of
Petsamo in Finland. Riga is captured by the 2nd and 3rd Baltic Fronts. In
northern Rumania, the Russians capture Cluj.

Italian Front - The Polish 2nd Division liberates Gambettola. The US 91st
Division consolidates its positions north of Livergnano. The South African 6th
Armoured Division continues its advance in the Grizzana sector.

Greece - The British III Corps land in force in the harbour of Piraeus.

Philippines - A task group from TF 38 attacks various Japanese targets in the
area of Manila. The carrier Franklin is hit again, this time by a Japanese
high-level bomber.

Burma - British, Chinese and American forces go over to the offensive. The
Chinese and Americans move down from the south of Myitkyina as far as the
line Katha-Shwegu-Bhamo. The British 36th Division advances in the area of
Namma.  The Chinese 22nd Division moves southeast of Kamaing towards the
area between the railway and the Myitkyina-Bhamo road, with the intention
of establishing a bridgehead at Shwegu.

The Homefront
-------------
Roosevelt For Free Jewish State - President Roosevelt has announced his
support for the establishement of Palestine as a free and democratic Jewish
commonwealth.

Navy College Training Cut - The Navy has announced that no more men will be
enrolled in Navy college training programs for the term beginning next March.

Pro Football - New York 14, Brooklyn 7; Washington 21, Boston 14; Chicago
Bears 34, Cards-Pitt 7; Cleveland 20, Detroit 17.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "Facts On File Yearbook 1944,
Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.netcom.com in directory /pub/jbd and can
be accessed via the WWW by URL: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/jbd/ww2.html. If you
have difficulty accessing the Netcom FTP server, please keep trying because it
stays very busy.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis     [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Oct 1994 08:22:26 EDT
From:    "SGM Robert S. Rush" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TECH ETO logistics

Reference books on logistical operations in the ETO, you might want to
look at Logistical Support of the Armies, Volumes 1 and II in the Army
Green Book Series.  Within the same series are more specialized editions
on Chemical, Engineer, Medical, Ordnance, Quartermaster, Signal and
Transportation Corps in the ETO.  The Army in World War II Series is in
most university libraries.  Editions can be bought from the Government
Printing Office.

Hope this helps
Rob Rush

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Oct 1994 08:53:36 -0500
From:    "Sidney W. Kitchel" <[email-masked]>
Subject: TACT Re: How Many Bridges Too Far?

RE: Doug McCabe's discussion of Market Garden which is omitted here

        Ryan's book and the movie made from it allude to Dutch
advisors criticizing the Market Garden plan. They also seem to be
saying that the problem addressed by the plan was often given at the
Dutch staff college. And this indicates that the Dutch had studied it
in detail and that their analysis was that it was quite difficult to
capture a thin road corridor and hold it long enough to move a large
force along it.
        Does anyone have details of the Dutch analysis and of their
"correct" solution to the problem?

                                                        --Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel           [email-masked], [email-masked]
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Oct 1994 09:57:27 -0500
From:    Michael D Wallick <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: your mail

On Fri, 14 Oct 1994, Robert T. Moore wrote:

> Hello, Bonnie!
>
> You might contact the State Department or consult a large library
> that would have a copy of the following:
>
>     1. The Trials of the Major War Criminals (43 volumes). This is a
> complete transcript of the proceedings.
>
>     Other works:
>
>     Reaching Judgment at Nuremberg by Bradley F. Smith
>     Nuremberg Diary by Dr. G. M. Gilbert
>     22 Cells in Nuremberg by (?)
>     The Nuremberg Mind by (?)
>     Nuremberg by Conant
>
>     If you are willing to wait, I will provide you with additional
> books and details of works that have appeared, if this is what you
> want. The above are off the top of my head, but there are others.
>
> Please advise.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Terry
>
> > I am interested in getting all information on the Nurnberg Trials.  I
> > would like for them to be on disk or maybe somewhere to be downloaded.
> >
> > Thanks ahead for the input.
> >
> > Bonnie
> >
>
22 Cells in Nuremberg by Douglas McGlashan Kelley.
The Nuremberg Mind by Florence R. Miale and Michael Selzer.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Oct 1994 08:04:58 -0700
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: NOST: What my father did in the war.

We have started an interesting thread over in the
soc.history.war.world-war-ii newsgroup that I thought the members of this
list might be interested in participating in. Various people are posting
write-ups of what their father/grandfather/uncle or even themselves did
during the war. It's making for some very interesting reading. If anyone
would like to post to this list a write-up I'll be glad to capture them
and store them in my "50 Years Ago" archives. That way you can read the
write-ups for the newsgroup and they can read the write-ups from here.
I'll start by posting what my father did in the war.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

My father was in the Merchant Marine during the war. He joined the war in
1944. He was just a country farm boy from eastern North Carolina but
decided he wanted to join the war effort. He suffered from a variety of
physical ailments including being blind in one eye and very under weight.
He was turned down by the Army and Navy so decided to try the Merchant
Marine. He left home (Burgaw, N.C.) and went to New York to try to join
up. When he got there he found out he was about 5 pounds too light to be
accepted. He went out and bought a bunch of bananas, ate them and then
went back in and passed the physical.

He travelled all around the world in the Merchant Marine. His most vivid
memories are of being in Antwerp and seeing the V1s go overhead. He says
the term "Buzz Bomb" is a very apt description. His time in the Merchant
Marine ended in the South Pacific. They were called to General Quarters.
While running to his post he ran into a door and reinjured his bad eye
(which subsequently had to be removed). This forced his discharge and he
came back to Burgaw. His service was nothing spectacular, I'm not even
sure he was ever in a combat situation, but to a farm boy from North
Carolina it gave him a chance to see the world. And this was something he
never forgot.

My father passed away in 1979. He had become Professor of Mathematics at
East Carolina University. He never tired of talking about his time in the
Merchant Marine. My mother as of late has found out that he was eligible
for a service foot stone on his grave and has had one placed there.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis     [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Oct 1994 10:39:57 -0500
From:    Cheryl Kaye Bryant <[email-masked]>
Subject: Looking for woman whose hus/bfriend went to war

I have been a subscriber to this listserv in the past but have recently
unsubscribe because of time constraints.  However, I do need a little bit
of help.  Maybe someone on the group could be of assistance.

My composition students are working on interviewing different people
through e-mail and each student could decide what kind of person they
would like to interview.  One student is interested in talking to a woman
who has had a husband or boyfriend who has gone off to war.  The
following is the e-mail message she sent me.

If you fit the description and are willing to take out a little time to
correspond with my student (It should only take a few e-mail messages
back and forth) Please let me know at my e-mail address since I am not
currently reading WWII-L.

C.K. Bryant [email-masked]

-----Student's e-mail-------
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 09:35:15 -0500 (CDT)
From: Monica M Hobart <mummh3>

        I am sending you this letter to let you know I am looking for a
woman whose husband or boyfriend has gone off to war.  I posted in the
soc.penpals, but am letting you [C.K.] know also.  I would like to know what
kind of emotional affect the war had on her, and how she delt with it.  I
am curious to know how their relationship held up through the war.  Can
you help me find someone?

*******************************************************************
"The Riskier the road, the greater the profit."    / C.K. Bryant
        The 62nd Rule of Acquisition               / W.I.U. English
*******************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Oct 1994 11:56:28 -0400
From:    Georges Grenon <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TWO QUESTIONS

>Troop ships were hit in the North Atlantic. The "Four Chaplains" were lost
>when the Dorchester went down.
>
>HS
>
        I wouls apreciate the date of the downning of the Dorcherster

        Thank you for your assistance

Georges Grenon VE2 GXE        Tel:      514 922-8352
P.O. Box 660                  FAX:      514 649-9011
Sainte-Julie, QC, Canada      E-Mail:   [email-masked]
J3E 1X9

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Oct 1994 13:21:56 -0400
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: QUES: troopships

The question I posted regarding troopships (thanks for the responses), has
developed anothe question in my noggin, and perhaps someone has an answer
to this.  If I recall properly, the Queen Elizebeth II operated as a
troopship and completed the voyages alone in high speed runs.  Was the
reason this was done soley based on the fact that the U-boat threat had
diminshed sufficiently?  Was it the fact that the speed of the QE II was
high enough to make a torpedoe hit unlikely (seems unlikely to me
considering some of the higher speed warships that have been damaged/sunk
in action)?  Other troopships still travelled in convoys at this point for
protection so what was it about the QE II that made her an exception to the
norm?  TIA.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Oct 1994 12:23:26 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: your mail

Hello, Mike!

Thanks for the names of those authors. Once I saw them, they were
instantly recognizable. My, isn't Alzheimers wonderful? :-(

Thanks again, and all the best.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Oct 1994 13:24:19 EDT
From:    Doug McCabe <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TACT Re: How Many Bridges Too Far?

                   Ohio University Electronic Communication

   Date:  14-Oct-1994 01:20pm EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"[email-masked]" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject:  Re: TACT Re: How Many Bridges Too Far?

    For Sidney Kitchel and others:
         I have in the Ryan Files the background on the Dutch criticism and
    solution to grabbing Arnhem.  Will getting it posted next week too
    late?  This is homecoming weekend and I'm trying to get an exhibit up,
    get ready for a banquet, work the exhibit and the game.....

    Doug

Received:  14-Oct-1994 01:24pm

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 04:00:14 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 10-13-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
10/13 Fri. Peleliu Island in the Palau Islands is secured.
            United States naval vessels damaged, Luzon, P. I.,
             and Formosa area:
             Carrier  FRANKLIN (CV-13), by suicide plane,
              22 d. 55'N., 123 d. 12'E.
             Heavy cruiser CANBERRA (CA-70), by aircraft
              torpedo,
              22 d. 48'N., 123 d. 01'E.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Oct 1994 04:00:12 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 10-14-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
10/14 Sat.  United States naval vessels damaged, Luzon, P. I.,
             and Formosa area:
             Carrier HANCOCK (CV-19), by horizontal bomber,
              23 d. 30'N., 121 d. 30'E.
             Light cruiser HOUSTON (CL-81), by aircraft torpedo,
              22 d. 27'N., 124 d. 01'E.
             Light cruiser Reno (CL-96), by suicide plane,
              22 d. 30'N., 124 d. 50'E.
             Destroyer COWELL (DD-547), by collision,
              22 d. 27'N., 124 d. 01'E.
             Destroyer CASSIN YOUNG (DD-793), by strafing,
              22 d. 30'N 124 d. 50'E.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Oct 1994 14:09:41 -0400
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: Regia Marina, Part 3

        During the winter of 1940-41, activities of Italian battleships were
reduced.  Both "Littorio" and "Duilio" were undergoing repairs from damage
incurred the previous November at Taranto; the former still at Taranto, the
latter in Genoa.  Salvage work on "Cavour" continued at Taranto as well, but
it was estimated that she would not be refloated until the summer.  "Doria"
had completed training and was operational along with "Veneto".  "Cesare" had
been damaged in January, during an air raid on Naples, and was transferred to
Genoa for repairs that would last three months.

        At dawn, on February 9, 1941, Force H from Gibraltar, under Admiral
Sommerville, consisting of the battleship "Malaya", battlecruiser "Renown",
carrier "Ark Royal", a cruiser and ten destroyers, bombarded Genoa for half
an hour.  The targets included shipyards, factories, and "Duilio", still
under repair.

        Italian assessments indicated that such an attack was possible
and a force had previously been sent to sea, including "Veneto", "Doria",
"Cesare", three heavy cruisers and ten destroyers, to counter the British.
However, due to poor weather and communications, the Italian units were too
far south and, despite the favorable situation, were unable to intercept
the British.

        The British shelling sank some cargo ships but no other major damage
was sustained.  However, the audacity of the action was in keeping with the
best traditions of the British Navy.  Moreover, Italian morale suffered and
the incident again highlighted the navy's ineffective communications and
poor naval-air force cooperation.

        Little more than a month later, while controversy still swirled
around the shelling of Genoa, the Italian Navy suffered a significant
setback, perhaps its worse defeat at sea during the war.  In a brief night
action, at close range, the 1st Cruiser Division, consisting of three
heavy cruisers of the "Zara" class, along with two destroyers, was sunk.

        Under German pressure, a cruiser sweep of the Eastern Mediterranean
was planned, with the goal of interdicting convoy traffic between Egypt and
Greece. The Germans argued (incorrectly) that British battleships would not
be available to oppose the sweep.  Italy, dependent on Germany for oil, had
already used up half of its strategic reserve, and therefore bowed to the
pressure of its Axis partner.  The Germans committed themselves to cooperate
in providing air cover for the operation.

        The Italian force was made up of "Veneto", providing heavy cover,
eight cruisers and thirteen destroyers.  On the morning of March 28, 1941,
they neared the small island of Gavdo, near the Cape of Matapan, and came
into contact with four British light cruisers and eight destroyers.  These
were the British light forces, acting as scouts for the Mediterranean fleet,
which was made up of the battleships "Warspite", "Valiant", and "Barham", the
armored cruiser "Formidable", and nine destroyers under Admiral Cunningham.
Cunningham was aware that the Italian units were at sea and he was spoiling
for a fight, with the "Veneto" as his main target.

        The four British cruisers were sighted by three Italian cruisers
and turned southward, staying out of range, hoping to draw the Italians
into the British heavy forces.  After an hour, the Italians reversed course
with the same objective and the British took the bait.  "Veneto" then
appeared from the northwest and opened fire, taking the British by surprise.
Once they realized they were under battleship fire, the British again turned
southwards, hoping to draw the Italians into the oncoming heavy fleet.  Air
strikes were launched from "Formidable" and from land bases and Admiral
Iachino realized he had lost the element of surprise and decided to return
home.

        The British could not catch the Italians at their maximum speed
and so launched further air strikes, hoping to damage and slow them.
Late in the afternoon, "Veneto" was hit portside near the screws by an
air-launched torpedo.  The outboard shaft broke and the port propeller
sheared off.  Flooding was extensive and power was initially lost, but
the ship was able to get under way again a few minutes later, working up
to 19 knots and proceeding home.  Despite the German promises, calls for
fighter protection were in vain throughout the day.  Calls for assistance
from the Regia Aeronautica also were fruitless.  At dusk, during another
British air strike, the heavy cruiser "Pola" took a torpedo hit and
stopped dead in the water.  Admiral Iachino was unaware that the British
battle fleet was in close proximity, again being badly served by
reconnaissance and intelligence.  He ordered the heavy cruisers "Zara"
and "Fiume" and four destroyers to stand by and assist "Pola".

        Admiral Cunningham, on the other hand, had a good appreciation of
the general situation thanks to effective air reconnaissance.  He believed,
though, that "Veneto", not a cruiser, had been stopped and continued his
pursuit despite darkness.  The British ships, radar equipped, unlike their
foe, came upon the Italian forces aiding "Pola".  Unaware of the enemy's
presence and intent on assisting their compatriot, the Italian ships were
not closed up at battle stations.  At point blank range, British 15-inch
shells ripped into "Fiume" and "Zara" sinking both while two of the Italian
destroyers were sunk in the ensuing melee.  "Pola", immobilized, scuttled
herself (being assisted by a number of British torpedos) after her crew was
taken off by the remaining destroyers.  (British propaganda reported that
"Pola"'s crew were drunk and had panicked.  These reports were totally
baseless and their source and purpose should be noted.)

        Italian lack of radar and the British use of naval aircraft as well
as information via "Ultra" provided the British with a great advantage.
However, none of this mitigates the Italian mistakes, including poor night
tactics, reconnaissance and intelligence, as well as the absence of air
cover.  These factors combined to cause an Italian debacle.  Though the
defeat was painful, it did not materially affect the balance of forces
in the Mediterranean.  The Italian battleship force was still essentially
intact and four heavy cruisers remained in service while the British had
only one, "York", in the theater.  ("York" would be severely damaged in
May in Suda Bay, Crete, by a brilliant attack by Italian-piloted explosive
motor boats.  The ship would be unsalvageable.)

        "Littorio", now fully repaired, reentered service as the fleet
flagship, replacing "Veneto", which would be under repairs for the next
three months.  "Doria", "Duilio", and "Cesare" were also operational.

        It should also be noted that the British would soon suffer heavy
naval losses at the hands of Axis air units during the evacuations of
Greece and Crete, when the British lacked a friendly air umbrella.  This
was a situation frequently faced by the Italian Navy, and the British fared
just as badly.
--
Joe Barone
[email-masked]
Crap Game: What's going on out there?
  Big Joe: The Sherman's busted and no one is moving
           that Tiger out of the square.
Crap Game: Have you tried to make a deal?
  Big Joe: A deal?  What kind of deal?
Crap Game: A deal deal.  Maybe the guy's a Republican.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Oct 1994 14:54:13 -0400
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: ADMIN: Posting policy

        In the last couple of weeks, I've received several complaints
from members who are at sites that can't deal with the increase in volume
on the list (either their disk quotas are being exceeded, they pay for
disk storage, etc.)  I must ask everyone who posts to the WWII-L list
to consider if their comments should be directed to one person rather
than the entire mailing list.  Quoting an entire message and adding,
"Good article!" or "I agree with you" should not be sent to the 300
members of the list.  Even without quoting another message, "I agree"
messages shouldn't be sent to every single person.  I ask that everyone
consider who their target audience is and modify the To: field
accordingly.  I have no real mechanism to enforce this but I ask
everyone to "police" themselves so that all our members can enjoy
the list.  Failure to this may result in members unsubscribing or
being forced off the list because of bounced mail (I've had to remove
several people from America On Line for this reason).  Thanks.
--
Joe Barone, WWII-L listowner
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Oct 1994 14:16:15 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: QUES: troopships

Hello, Ron!

> The question I posted regarding troopships (thanks for the responses), has
> developed anothe question in my noggin, and perhaps someone has an answer
> to this.  If I recall properly, the Queen Elizebeth II operated as a
> troopship and completed the voyages alone in high speed runs.  Was the
> reason this was done soley based on the fact that the U-boat threat had
> diminshed sufficiently?

    Yes, by that time. My father went over to Europe on that one.

Was it the fact that the speed of the QE II was
> high enough to make a torpedoe hit unlikely (seems unlikely to me
> considering some of the higher speed warships that have been damaged/sunk
> in action)?

    That is also true from what I have read. I don't have access to
my records on this to give you precise figures, but this also was a
factor in using this ship for troop transport purposes.

 Other troopships still travelled in convoys at
this point for
> protection so what was it about the QE II that made her an exception to the
> norm?

    See above.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Oct 1994 14:21:23 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: BIO:  Wingate

Hello, Cassady!

I am posting some other info on Wingate that may be of interest. All
the rest I possess deals with this exploits in Burma. I had a chance
one to interview a senior officer who had served with Merrill's
Marauders, reaching the rank of Lt.-Col. who told me of his having
met and known Orde Wingate, Lord Louis Mountbatten, Stillwell, etc.

Here goes.

Between January and May 1941, he led guerilla groups known as "Gideon
Force" in Abyssinia. As the assistant to Haile Selassie and his
nationalist forces, he employed tactics which led to the evacuation
of a large number of positions by the Italians and captured many
prisoners. He twice refused promotion to lieutenant-general.

Hope this has been of interest. If I run across anything else on him,
I will post it to you.

All the best.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Oct 1994 15:22:37 EDT
From:    Richard Kaplan <[email-masked]>
Subject: USS Dorchester

The Army transport Dorchester was sunk on 2/2/43 by U-456.  The ship was headed
to Greenland when she was struck. No SOS was sent, and 229 were saved from a
complement of 906 on board.  As previously noted the Dorchester was famous as
the episode of the four chaplains who encouraged others, and gave away their
life preservers, ultimately dying themselves.

                Reverand George L. Fox
                Rabbi Alexander D. Goode
                Reverand Clark V. Poling
                Father John P. Washington

As to the Queens; Mary and Elizabeth, they both plied the Atlantic as
troopships on unescorted sorties.  The reason given is because of their high,
sustained speeds.  The QE was rated at 31 knots, and the QM at 30.  They could
make three crossings per month, carrying 15000 men (approx. a division) per
trip.  By June 1, 1944 the two ships accounted for 425,000 men, or 24% of the
pre D-Day buildup of Americans in England.

Source: Allen, Thomas B. & Polmar, Norman
        World War II: America at War
        New York; Random House, 1991

                                        Richard Kaplan
                                        Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Oct 1994 15:19:23 -0400
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: NOST: What my father did in the war.

John, would it be too much to ask if you simply forwarded the stories to
this list (providing everyone else wants to hear them too)? It may make
it easier. Cheers,
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Oct 1994 14:30:43 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Invasion of Crete -- Operation Merkur

Hello, Emery and Dave!

Here goes with some more info on the Crete invasion.

Kippenberger stood in the twilight and watched them go as he had
watched many brave men go into battle already in this war. The
infantry followed up at a walk, then broke into a run, started
shouting and running, disappeared into the village. Instantly, there
was the most startling clamour, audible all over the field. Scores of
automatics and rifles were being fired at once, the crunch of
grenades, screams and yells-the uproar swelled and sank, swelled
again to a horrifying crescendo. Some women and children were
scurrying down the road; one old woman frantic with fear clung
desperately to me. The firing slackened, became a brisk clatter,
steadily becoming distant, and stopped. The counterattack had
succeeded; it was nearly dark and the battlefield suddenly became
silent.

But the successful counterattack at Galatos only gave the hard-
pressed New Zealanders a breathing space. Inexorably they were pushed
back, ever closer to the sea and Suda Bay. On May 26, Freyberg wrote
to Wavell: "I regret to have to report that in my opinion the limit
of endurance has been reached by the troops under my command here at
Suda Bay. No matter what decision is taken by the Commander-in-Chief
from a military point of view, our position here is hopeless.

    A small, ill-equipped and immobile force such as ours cannot
stand up against the concentrated bombing that we have been faced
with during the last seven days. I feel that I should tell you that
from an administrative point of view, the difficulties of extricating
this force in full are insuperable. Provided a decision is reached at
once, a certain proportion of the force might be embarked."

More on Monday, Emery and Dave.

All the best.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Oct 1994 15:52:43 EDT
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Research

Dear Dan,

Thanks for the additional info on the Japanese materials. Can I contact
you off-line re mutual interests?

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Oct 1994 16:15:05 EDT
From:    Richard Larkin <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: Bazooka

        I would like to publicly thank the following people for responding
in some way to my query regarding the bazooka:
       David Rising (did you see Doug McCabe's post re: Pvt. Towle?)
       Cooper Addison
       Ken Koester
       Ben Frank
       Michael LaForge
       Doug McCabe (great story!)
        This was my first post to the list and I appreciate the help I
received.  Take care everyone.

Richard Larkin
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Oct 1994 16:43:40 EDT
From:    Doug McCabe <[email-masked]>
Subject: Untold Stories f/ABTF, Pt. 5

                   Ohio University Electronic Communication

   Date:  14-Oct-1994 04:19pm EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"[email-masked]" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject:  Untold Stories f/ABTF, Pt. 5

    [This time we have excerpts from Cornelius Ryan interviews with two of
    the big guys involved with MARKET-GARDEN.]

         "I can't remember that either I or any of my friends - in that
    case that would have to be Pete Dormann - were asked anything about
    landing grounds in and around Arnhem.  But we pointed out - that is, at
    least, General Dormann pointed out, because he had made trials with
    tanks in that area before the war - that the ground outside the road
    was entirely unsuitable for tanks.  They couldn't operate, they would
    get bogged down and therefore, we pointed out, the infantry should be
    with or on the tanks to clear up any tank obstacles the Germans would
    put up on the road to Arnhem.  They would never be able to keep up that
    schedule and I don't think that the [British] Staff were very much
    impressed by our negative attitude on these ground environments, but it
    turned out that we were right.

         "We had absolutely every detail on the Germans - on everything the
    Germans had in and around Arnhem, down to the markings on the vehicles
    and the number of people - complete accurate.  The amount of
    anti-aircraft defense near the bridges, all that sort of thing.  We had
    it all in detail, including the gun positions and what have you.
    Supreme Headquarters included this information but Montgomery's 21st
    Army Group refused to believe it because thay had been given too often
    in the course of the campaign, from the invasion up to Brussels, false
    information by intelligence groups.  I think that must be the reason
    because otherwise it would have been unwise to neglect it.

         "We were simply very, very disappointed, very upset [with the
    failure of the operation].  I think our first reaction was, well this
    is the end of the liberation of Holland before the winter and that
    means a hell of a lot of trouble and suffering and a lot more people
    killed in Holland.  All that I think overshadowed the thought of who
    made a mistake and why and where.

         "My country can never again afford the luxury of another
    Montgomery success."

                        - Prince Bernard of the Netherlands

         "He proposed [the operation] on September 10th, if I would just
    give him all the supplies that he could go right straight to Berlin.
    And I said, "Monty, you're nuts.  You can't do that.  What the hell.
    If you tried a long column like that all the way to [Berlin] you'd have
    flank attacks and you can't supply over that one damn bridge up across
    the north of the Rhur."  He said, "I'll supply them alright.  Just give
    me the men, what I need, and so on."  So I said, "Well, I'll tell you
    what, Monty, I'll tell you what I'll do - but let's get over the Rhine
    first.  I'll haul things out because I want a bridgehead."  So that's
    when we had this Operation MARKET-GARDEN.

         "We gave him three airborne divisions to help him and then he said
    he might need 500 tons of supplies laid down somewhere east of
    Brussels.  I said alright, now when you have gotten that done we'll get
    Walcheren and Highlands so that you can get the Antwerp route and from
    there on we'll have all the supplies we'll need.  Well, he took that.
    The point is, he couldn't even get over the Rhine - how in the hell was
    he going to go to Berlin?  This was just the kind of thing he liked to
    propose because essentially he's not an honest man.

         "First of all he's a psychopath, don't forget that.  He is such an
    egocentric that the man - everything he has ever done is perfect - he
    has never made a mistake in his life.  He even says that all of the
    tactical operations after we landed from D-Day went absolutely
    according to plan.  He got too damn personal to make sure that the
    Americans, and me in particular, had no credit - had nothing to do with
    this war - that I just stopped communicating with him.  I never said a
    word publically against my government.  All I said is I am just not
    interested in keeping up communication with a man who just can't talk
    the truth."

                        - President and General Dwight D. Eisenhower

    Monty appears to have at least two detractors.  More next week.

    Doug

Received:  14-Oct-1994 04:43pm

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Oct 1994 14:31:51 -0700
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: NOST: What my father did in the war.

>
> John, would it be too much to ask if you simply forwarded the stories to
> this list (providing everyone else wants to hear them too)? It may make
> it easier. Cheers,
> David Rising

Well, the thing is it really would be a pain to do this because I would
have to save it off the newsgroup and then remail it. Plus it really
wouldn't be fair to just post the newsgroup ones here without posting the
mailing list articles over there. When the newsgroup was formed it was
decided to not cross-post articles from one group to the other.

So far we've had about half a dozen "What my father did" articles that
I've stored at my FTP site (ftp.netcom.com, directory /pub/jbd). I know it
is a pain to FTP (really the best way is thru WWW, URL is
ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/jbd/ww2.html). It stays busyy quite often, but if
you try about 3 times in a row you will get in, if you are really
interested. Some of the articles posted so far have been very interesting,
especially the ones written from non-Americans.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis     [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 15 Oct 1994 08:55:04 +1523847
From:    Kevin Noonan <[email-masked]>
Subject: Savo Island

Folks

There was an item (I saw only half of it :( on TV last night about a
reunion of HMAS Canberra survivors.  Apparently they have determined by
investigating the wreck that she was sunk by American torpedoes launched
from a USN destroyer (name started with a "B" I think) at the Battle of
Savo Island.  The holes were in the side of the boat that had been facing
the USN.

The significant claim was that the USN/RAN knew all along but kept it
hushed up during the war because of the problems it would have caused.

Anyone got any detail or comments?  (I know virtually nothing about Savo
Island)

Kevin Noonan
[email-masked]

Todays quote:
A collision happens when two motorists go after the same pedestrian

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Oct 1994 20:15:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 15 OCT 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
SUNDAY, 15 OCTOBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  L-4, Piper Cub/Grasshopper
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 4 B-25s on armed reconnaissance over
Paramushiru Island turn back when the flight drifts off course; 1 B-24
strafes a freighter off Shimushiru Island.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, about 40 P-47s attack positions in
the Mohnyin area and at Man Naung, supply concentrations at Kyungyi, railroad
targets in the Mawhun area, ammunition stores at Manwing, and buildings near
Muse; 12 B-25s hit the town of Onbauk, storage facilities at Indaw, and
vicinity of Thabeikkyin. Transport operations in the CBI continue on a large
scale; the 71st Liaison Squadron, Tenth Air Force [attached to 1st Liaison
Group (Provisional)], moves from Ledo, India to Sahmaw with L-4s and L-5s. In
India, the 5th and 6th Fighter Squadrons (Commando), 1st Air Commando Group,
based in Asansol, send detachments to operate from Cox's Bazar with P-47s.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 28 B-24s, 33 P-51s, and 18 P-40s
pound White Cloud Airfield in Canton and shipping in the Hong Kong area; 2
B-24s bomb Amoy; 6 fighter-bombers hit targets of opportunity near Mangshih
and Tajungchiang.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 3 missions are flown.
  Mission 677: 754 bombers and 464 fighters are dispatched to hit industrial,
oil and rail targets in the Cologne, Germany area; all but 1 force bombs by
PFF methods; 7 bombers and 3 fighters are lost:
  1. 454 B-17s are dispatched to hit the Geron (141), Nippes (127) and Kalk
(111) marshalling yards; 11 others hit the Koblenz/Lutzel marshalling yard; 4
B-17s are lost, 3 damaged beyond repair and 293 damaged; 14 airmen are KIA,
15 WIA and 40 MIA.  Escort is provided by 146 of 151 P-51s; 1 P-51 is damaged
beyond repair.
  2. 385 B-17s are dispatched to hit the Eifeltor (148) and Imbert (24)
marshalling yards; secondary targets are the Kalk (117) and Gereon (50)
marshalling yards; other targets are Wester marshalling yard (11) and other
(1); 2 B-17s are lost, 3 damaged beyond repair and 230 damaged; 10 airmen are
KIA, 19 WIA and 18 MIA. Escort is provided by 150 of 154 P-51s; 2 P-51s are
lost (pilots MIA) and 1 damaged beyond repair.
  3. 369 B-24s are dispatched to hit oil facilities at Monheim/Rhenania (64)
and Reisholz (61) visually; secondary targets are Cologne/Gereon marshalling
yard (185) and Dormigeon (13); targets of opportunity are Worringen (12),
Cologne Airfield (12) and Limburg marshalling yard (6); 1 B-24 is lost and
106 damaged; 3 B-24s are lost and 106 damaged; 3 airmen are KIA, 7 WIA and 10
MIA. Escort is provided by 131 of 141 P-51s; 1 P-51 is lost (pilot MIA) and 1
damaged beyond repair.
  Mission 678A: 2 of 9 B-17s make an APHRODITE attack on naval installations
on Heligoland Island, Germany; 23 of 24 B-17s fly a cover mission to the same
targets. Escort is provided by 15 of 16 P-51s and 2 P-38s without loss.
  Mission 679: 5 B-17s and 4 B-24s fly a night leaflet mission over the
Netherlands, France and Germany without loss.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Weather prevents bomber operations;
fighters fly rail cutting missions and support elements of the US First,
Third, Seventh, and Ninth Armies in E France and W Germany.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Bad weather limits operations
to weather reconnaissance missions.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s bomb bridges in
the W Po Valley; B-26s hit bridges in the E part of the Valley, and have
excellent success bombing a railway fill at Ossenigo, trapping 300+ railway
cars N of the target; fighters and fighter-bombers concentrate their efforts
toward support of ground forces along a wide front in the mountains S of
Bologna; HQ 63d Fighter Wing moves from Bastia, Corsica to San Pietro.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 27 B-24s from Saipan Island strike fuel
storage, AA positions, and installations at the airfield on Iwo Jima Island;
1 other B-24 bombs the airfield at Pagan Island. 2 B-24s from the Marshall
Islands bomb Wake Island during the night of 15/16 Oct.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: A-20s again pound
airfields and oil storage on Ceram Island; P-38s carry out a shipping sweep
over the Flores Island area n the Lesser Sunda Islands and on Halmahera
Island bomb the Pitoe and Kaoe areas; P-38s bomb Amahai Airfield on Ceram
Island while bombers on armed reconnaissance hit nearby targets of
opportunity. In New Guinea, P-47s attack Sagan Airfield; the 33d Troop
Carrier Squadron, 374th Troop Carrier Group, moves from Port Moresby to
Hollandia with C-47s; the 70th Troop Carrier Squadron, 433d Troop Carrier
Group, moves from Hollandia to Biak Island with C-47s. HQ 38th Bombardment
Group (Medium) and the 405th and 823d Bombardment Squadrons (Medium) move
from Biak Island, New Guinea to Morotai Island with B-25s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

15/0018Z OCT

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 14 Oct 1994 21:45:50 -0400
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: Rudder & Pointe du Hoc

Hi all,

  Last time I asked this question, it became a debate about whether the
correct spellling of Pointe du Hoc is Pointe du Ho etc. Lets not open
that one again. I am, however, still interested in my original question
which was (ages ago):
  What was the calibre of troops faced by Rudder & his Rangers at the
Pointe du Hoc (you say tomato...)? Having visited the cliffs on the
Norman coast a couple of years ago, it seems impossible to me that his
men could have taken the heights unless the opposition was weak. On the
other hand, wierder things have been known to happen.
  BTW, is John Ausland ok? We haven't heard from him for a while.
  Different note: Joe, I agree with you that quoting huge messages with
basically meaningless replies is unnecessary (and a pain in the ass even
for those of us with unlimited mail boxes). Just wondering, however,
could those people having problems not switch to digest mode? Just a
thought. Cheers,
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 15 Oct 1994 00:59:04 GMT
From:    SYSTEM 0PERATOR <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: BIO:  Wingate

"Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]> writes:

> Hello, Cassady!
>
> I am posting some other info on Wingate that may be of interest. All
> the rest I possess deals with this exploits in Burma. I had a chance
> one to interview a senior officer who had served with Merrill's
> Marauders, reaching the rank of Lt.-Col. who told me of his having
> met and known Orde Wingate, Lord Louis Mountbatten, Stillwell, etc.
>
> Here goes.
>
> Between January and May 1941, he led guerilla groups known as "Gideon
> Force" in Abyssinia. As the assistant to Haile Selassie and his
> nationalist forces, he employed tactics which led to the evacuation
> of a large number of positions by the Italians and captured many
> prisoners. He twice refused promotion to lieutenant-general.
>
> Hope this has been of interest. If I run across anything else on him,
> I will post it to you.
>
> All the best.
>
> Terry

Wingate was born in India in 1903, a fourth-generation military.
Commissioned in the RA in 1923. Followed a course in Arabic and was
assigned in the Sudan Defence Force. He took part in an expedition to
find the 'lost oasis' of Zerzura, a legendary place somewhere in the
vastness of the Libyan desert. He never found it.
In 1936 he was assigned to Palestine under Wavell, and adopted the
Zionist cause, converting himself to Judaism. Wingate organized Special
night Squads, and ambushed Arab raids.
Wingate then corresponded with Liddell Hart, who passed his ideas on
unconventional warfare to Churchill. Wingate and churchill met in 1938.
People were struck by his resemblance to Lawrence of Arabia.

Terry spoke about the rest, the Ethiopian and Burmese periods.
I'll just add that after Ethiopia, Wingate was sick from the strain.
Fevers took him. He avoided the military
doctor for fear of being sent to convalescence in a rear area. the result
was that he exceeded the normal dose of atabrine. In his hotel room he
stabbed himself in the throat with a knofe. He was saved when someone
arrived and found him unconscious and bleeding.

Arnaud

(source: Churchill's Generals, ed. by John Keegan)

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 13 Oct 1994 to 14 Oct 1994
*************************************************