Subject: WWII-L Digest - 23 Oct 1994 to 24 Oct 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 00:02:02 -0400

There are 35 messages totalling 1405 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Recent publications
  2. INF: USN Chronology 10-24-94 (2)
  3. WWII Chronology? (3)
  4. WEAP:  CVE-60  USS Guadalcanal
  5. INF: 50 Years Ago - 25-OCT-1944
  6. HIST: V2 and von Braun (2)
  7. Churchill's bad decisions (from Economic Causes of the
  8. Publication AFV News
  9. John Keegan
 10. <No subject given>
 11. [GEN/MEDIA] was "Dumb Luck" in the Phillipines
 12. Teaching WWII in Germany today.
 13. SUBMARINES
 14. George Gay
 15. Bittersweet Reunion
 16. HOME FRONT - WASTE FATS
 17. Media: Public TV
 18. HYPO:Turkey in the war
 19. WEAP: Amphibian Tractors and Sandbags
 20. WEAP: CVE-106   USS Block Island
 21. Polish Army vehicles
 22. "Old 59"
 23. [INF] USAAF 24 OCT 44
 24. HYPO: The "Big" what-if? (B-36s & AA missiles)
 25. ME163
 26. WEAP: Sonar
 27. [INF] USAAF 25 OCT 44
 28. Waffen SS
 29. PUB: The Luftwaffe and Air War in the Mediterranean
 30. WEAP: Long Lance torpedo---_WAR PLAN ORANGE_
 31. Best WWII Books (formerly Me163)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 24 Oct 1994 01:46:02 -0400
From:    John Sloan <[email-masked]>
Subject: Recent publications

HI all,'
Here are names of three items I received recently that may be of general
interest.
1. Latest issue of "World War II Review" - "A Digest of International News
and information"  Oct 1994. head article is on MacArthur return to
Philippines.  This is a newsletter type publication of 16 pages that
regularly contains a wide variety of interesting items. Another item in this
issue is an article on salvage operation that gave Russia U-boat secrets.
 Publisher is Broadhead Publishing, Castleshaw, Delph, Oldham. OL3 5LZ,
England. They may be reached by email at [email-masked].
2. Latest issue of "Frontovik" Russian Military Collectors Association
1700-1945. The publisher, editor is Mark Coolidge at 2624 NE 28th St, Ft
Lauderdale, Fl. 33306. This issue has four well illustrated articles. The
title shows the range in time, but naturally most of the interest is on 20th
century.
3. A circular letter from Jo Ann Petrello, Head, History and Geography Dept.
Cleveland Public Library, 325 Superior Ave, Cleveland, Ohio, 44114-1271. I
don't know where this library came by its extensive collection of military
posters dating from the Russian Revolution through WWII, but it is an
impressive achievement.  Now the library has published 1300 of the posters
with an extensive cross index all on an optical disk.  According to this
letter the collection is available for purchase on VHS video-=cassette with a
printout of index terms for $40.00.  Might be of use in instruction. phone is
216 623 2871.

best wishes

john sloan
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 24 Oct 1994 04:00:12 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 10-24-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
10/24 Tue. Battle for Leyte Gulf (23-26 October) continues.
           Carrier-based aircraft (Vice Adm. M. A. Mitscher)
           locate and heavily attack the Japanese Center Force
           south of Mindoro in the Sibuyan Sea, and the Southern
           Force steaming through the Sulu Sea,   Enemy aircraft
           counterattack United States forces. During the night,
           the United States fast carriers move north from San
           Bernardino Strait to be in a position for dawn
           strikes against the enemy Northern Force. The
           Japanese Center Force moves through San Bernardino
           Strait and south toward Leyte Gulf.
            United States naval vessels sunk:
             Light carrier PRINCETON (CVL-23), damaged by dive
              bomber, Battle for Leyte Gulf,
              15 d. 12'N., 123 d. 36'E.;
              sunk by United States forces.
             Submarine DARTER (SS-117), damaged by grounding,
              Bombay Shoal, Palawan Passage, P. I.; destroyed by
              United States  forces.
             Submarine TANG (SS-306), by circular run of her own
              torpedo, north of Formosa.
             Ocean tug  SONOMA (ATO-12), by suicide plane,
              Battle for Leyte Gulf,
              10 d. 57'N., 125 d. 02'E.
            United States naval vessels damaged, Battle for
             Leyte Gulf:
             Light cruiser BIRMINGHAM (CL-62) and destroyers
              MORRISON (DD-560), GATLING (DD-671), and IRWIN
              (DD-794), by rolling against PRINCETON (CVL-23)
              while alongside, and by fragments from her
              exploding magazines.
             Destroyer LEUTZE (DD-481), by horizontal bomber,
              10 d. 50'N., 125 d. 25'E.
             Destroyer ALBERT W. GRANT (DD-649), by naval
              gunfire,
              10 d. 27'N., 125 d. 25'E.
             Oiler ASHTABULA (A0-51), by aircraft torpedo,
              11 d. 03'N., 125 d. 22'E.
             LST 552, by horizontal bomber,
              11 d. 11'N., 125 d. 05'E.
             LST 695, by underwater explosion,
              08 d. 31'N., 128 d. 34'E.
            Japanese naval vessels sunk, Battle for Leyte Gulf:
             Battleship MUSASHI, by carrier-based aircraft,
              Sibuyan Sea,
              12 d. 50'N., 122 d. 35'E.
             Destroyer WAKAHA, by  carrier-based aircraft,
              11 d. 50'N., 121 d. 25'E.
             Submarine I-362, by destroyer escort RICHARD M.
              ROWELL (DD-403),
              09 d. 45'N., 126 d. 45'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: Larry Jewell <[email-masked]>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 24 Oct 1994 07:07:13 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WWII Chronology?

     UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
     from:
     //byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,
     5).txt

     1944
     10/23 Mon. Battle for Leyte Gulf (13-16 October) opens as United
     States submarines off Palawan Island sight and attack the Center Force
     of three Japanese naval groups moving on Leyte in a major effort to
     drive United States forces from the Philippines. Two enemy cruisers
     are sunk.
     Submarine NAUTILUS (SS-168) lands men and supplies on east coast of
     Luzon, P. I. (Operation continues on 24 and 25 October)
     Japanese naval vessels sunk, off Palawan, P. I.:
     Heavy cruiser MAYA, by submarine DACE (SS-247),
     09 d. 11'N., 117 d. 07'E.
     Heavy cruiser ATAGO, by submarine DARTER (SS-227),
     09 d. 28'N., 117 d. 17'E.

     *** I wonder why the chronology doesn't mention the loss of the DACE,
     SS-227, which was sunk by Maya and Atago's escorts during the same
     action?

    Steve L. New
    [email-masked]
    Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 24 Oct 1994 07:11:30 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP:  CVE-60  USS Guadalcanal

     One of my favorite WWII stories of all time, How CPT Gallery planned
     for the impossible, and made it happen.

     His book covering this action, "Clear the Decks" is so well written,
     and funny, you'll won't put it down.

     Steve

From: Dictionary of American Fighting Ships, Vol. III, 1968, Navy
Department, Office of the Chief of Naval Operations, Naval History
Division, Washington, D.C.

GUADALCANAL (CVE-60)

dp. 7,800;
l. 512';
b. 65';
ew. 108' 1";
dr. 2' 6";
s. 19 k.;
cpl. 860;
a. 1 5", 16 40-mm., 20 20-mm., 28 ac.;
cl. CASABLANCA

The first GUADALCANAL (CVE-60) an escort aircraft carrier, was converted
from a Maritime Commission hull by Kaiser Co., Inc., of Vancouver, Wash.
Originally ATROLABE BAY (AVG 60), she was reclassified ACV-60, 20 August
1942 and launched as GUADALCANAL (ACV-60) 5 June 1943, sponsored by Mrs.
Alvin I. Malstrom. She was reclassified CVE 60 on 15 July 1943; and
commissioned at Astoria, Oreg., 25 September 1943, Captain D. V. Gallery
in command.

After shakedown training, GUADALCANAL performed pilot qualifications out
of San Diego, Calif., and then departed 15 November 1943, via the Panama
Canal, for Norfolk, Va., arriving 3 December. There she became flagship
of antisubmarine task group 21.12, and with her escort destroyers set
out from Norfolk 5 January 1944 in search of enemy submarines in the
North Atlantic. On 16 January aircraft from GUADALCANAL sighted three
submarines fueling on the surface and in a rocket and bombing attack
succeeded in sinking German submarine U-544. Replenishing at Casablanca,
the task group headed back for Norfolk and repairs, arriving 16
February.

Departing again with her escorts 7 March, GUADALCANAL sailed without
incident to Casablanca and got underway from that port 30 March with a
convoy bound for the United States. Scouring the waters around the
convoy 8 April northwest of Madeira, the task group discovered German
submarine U-515 and closed in for the kill. GUADALCANAL aircraft and
destroyers CHATELAIN, FLAHERTY, PILLSBURY, and POPE made several well
coordinated attacks on the intruder with rockets and depth charges
throughout the night. Losing depth control on the afternoon of 9 April,
the submarine was forced to surface amid the waiting ships, and was
immediately devastated by point blank rocket and gunfire. As Wildcat
fighters from GUADALCANAL strafed the submarine, her captain, German ace
Kapitanleutenant Werner Henke, ordered abandon ship and she went to the
bottom.

Again on the night of 10 April the task group caught German submarine U-
68 on the surface in broad moonlight 300 miles south of the Azores and
sank her with depth charges and rocket fire. The convoy arrived safely
at Norfolk 26 April 1944.

After voyage repairs at Norfolk, GUADALCANAL and her escorts departed
Hampton Roads for sea again 15 May 1944. Two weeks of cruising brought
no contacts, and the task force decided to head for the coast of Africa
to refuel. Ten minutes after reversing course, however, CHATELAIN
detected a submarine, U-505. The destroyer loosed one depth charge
attack and, guided in for a more accurate drop by circling Avenger
aircraft from GUADALCANAL, soon made a second. This pattern blasted a
hole in the outer hull of the submarine, and rolled the U-boat on its
beam ends. Shouts of panic from the conning tower led her inexperienced
captain to believe his boat was doomed, so he blew his tanks and
surfaced, barely 700 yards from CHATELAIN. The destroyer fired a
torpedo, which missed, and the surfaced submarine then came under the
combined fire of the escorts and aircraft, forcing her crew to abandon
ship.

Captain Gallery had been waiting and planning for such an opportunity,
and having already trained and equipped his boarding parties, ordered
PILLSBURY's boat to make for the German sub and board her. Under the
command of Lt. (jg) A. L. David, the party leaped onto the slowly
circling submarine and found it abandoned. Braving unknown dangers
below, David and his men quickly captured all important papers and books
while closing valves and stopping leaks. As Pillsbury attempted to get a
tow-line on her, like a cowboy roping a steer, the party managed to stop
her engines. By this time a larger salvage group from GUADALCANAL
arrived, and began the work of preparing U-505 to be towed. After
securing the tow-line and picking up the German survivors from the sea,
GUADALCANAL started for Bermuda with her priceless prize in tow. Fleet
tug ABNAKI rendezvoused with the task group and took over towing duties,
the group arriving in Bermuda 19 June.

For their daring and skillful teamwork in this remarkable capture,
GUADALCANAL and her escorts shared in a Presidential Unit Citation. The
captured submarine proved to be of inestimable value to American
intelligence, and its true fate was kept secret from the Germans until
the end of the war.

(U-505 is now on display at the Museum of Science and Industry, Chicago,
Illinois, USA. LWJ)

Arriving in Norfolk 22 June 1944, GUADALCANAL spent only a short time in
port before setting out again on patrol. She departed Norfolk 15 July
and between then and 1 December made three anti-submarine cruises in the
Western Atlantic. She sailed 1 December for a training period in waters
off Bermuda and Cuba that included refresher landings for pilots of her
new squadron, gunnery practice, and anti-submarine warfare drills with
Italian submarine R-9. GUADALCANAL arrived Mayport, Fla., for carrier
qualifications 15 December and subsequently engaged in further training
in Cuban water until 13 February 1946 when she arrived back in Norfolk.
After another short training cruise to the Caribbean, she steamed into
Mayport 15 March for a tour of duty as carrier qualification ship, later
moving to Pensacola for similar operations. After qualifying nearly
4,000 pilots, GUADALCANAL returned to Norfolk, Va., and decommissioned
there 15 July 1946.

GUADALCANAL entered the Atlantic Reserve Fleet at Nor folk and was
redesignated CVU-60 on 15 July 1955, while still in reserve. Her name
was finally stricken from the Navy List 27 May 1958 and she was sold for
scrap to the Hugo Neu Corp. of New York 30 April 1959.

GUADALCANAL was awarded three battle stars and a Presidential Unit
Citation for service in World War II.

EXCERPT FROM AFTER-ACTION REPORT:

..The sub at this point was running in a tight circle to the right,
fully surfaced and it was known that most of her crew had abandoned her.

PART III THE CAPTURE

At 1135 ComCortDiv 4 ordered the JENKS and CHATELAIN to pick up
survivors and sent away the PILLSBURY's boarding party.

At 1203 the carrier headed back toward the scene of action to get her
boarding parties aboard, having in the meantime recovered the fighter
planes which had assisted the CHATELAIN. Carrier's boarding parties were
called away at 1230.

After lowering her boat the PILLSBURY pursued the sub around the circle
trying to get lines aboard. From the carrier's bridge it looked for all
the world like rodeo with a cowboy trying to rope a wild horse. The
PILLSBURY did rope the sub, several times. The first time she got a line
aboard, CTG 22.3 broadcast by TBS:

"Bluejay to Dagwood-Ridem Cowboy. Out"

But in the struggle alongside the runaway sub the PILLSBURY was holed by
the bow planes of the sub, and one engine room was flooded to the water
line, forcing her to haul clear and stop.

Meantime the PILLSBURY's boarding party, commanded by Lieut. (j.g.) A.
L. David, had gotten alongside and leaped from the whaleboat to the deck
of the circling sub. There was only one dead man on deck, but the
boarders did not know how many men might be below. The sub was still
running at about 7 knots and it seemed highly probable that part of the
crew was still below setting demolition charges and scuttling. Without
hesitation this party took their lives in their hands and plunged down
the conning tower hatch to capture and save the boat. They found no
none
below and immediately went to work closing valves, 6" in diameter, was
pouring into the boat. Then, not knowing at what moment the boat might
either blow up or sink, they turned to, seizing all the important
looking papers they could find and passing them up on deck.

..

CONCLUSION

>From the time that we sailed from Norfolk the whole task group was
determined that we would come back dragging a sub behind us ... and they
had what it took to do it.  When remarkable luck was required, we had
it. When perfect cooperation between aircraft and surface vessels was
required it was there. When a clean cut knock out punch was needed, the
CHATELAIN produced it. When outstanding heroism was required, it was
commonplace among the boarding parties.

I believe every man in the task group would have volunteered for the
boarding parties, and those who could not go were very envious of those
who did.

It is a great pleasure to report that all hands in the task group did
their duty in an exemplary manner in keeping with the highest traditions
of the U. S. Navy.

D. V. Gallery

    Steve L. New
    [email-masked]
    Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 24 Oct 1994 04:37:56 -0700
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 25-OCT-1944

On 25-OCT-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The Canadians continue their advance along the isthmus of
South Beveland. In the US 7th Army sector, the 44th Division is repeatedly
counter-attacked by the German 19th Army. General Brooks replaces General
Truscott as commander of the VI Corps.

Eastern Front - The Karelia Front advances from Petsamo into Norway and
captures the port of Kirkenes on the Barents Sea.

Italian Front - The British V Corps reaches the river Ronco. The 4th Division
captures Forlimpopoli without opposition. The 10th Indian Division establishes
a bridgehead over the Ronco, south and north of Meldola.

Philippines - In the northern sector, units of the 1st Cavalry Division reach
Carigara Bay, finding few Japanese troops there. In the south, units of the
19th Infantry attack Tabontabom. They are repulsed by the Japanese however.
The 382nd Infantry takes Aslom and Kanmonhag.

Battle of Leyte Gulf - The battle of Leyte Gulf continues. Early in the
morning there is a running battle between American PT boats and destroyers
and Nishimura's and Shima's forces as they pass through Surigao Strait. The
PT boats sink one cruiser, while the destoyers sink the battleship Fuso and
three destroyers. A gun battle then takes place between the Japanese forces
and Oldendorf's heavy ships. The battleship Yamashiro is sunk. The cruiser
Mogami is heavily damaged and abandoned after colliding with the Nachi. The
surviving Japanese forces withdraw.

Kurita's force, composed of four battleships, eight cruisers and 11
destroyers, passes through the San Bernardino Strait in the early hours of
the morning and finds Admiral Sprague's TF 77.4.3, composed of six escort
carriers and seven destroyers. The planes of this group have been used to
support land operations and are not provided with the torpedoes or bombs
needed to attack ships. The Americans are forced to flee with some cover
coming from smokescreens and rain squalls. The Japanese ships gradually
close in. Three US destroyers and one escort carrier is sunk from Sprague's
force. The Japanese are able to close to within 10,000 yards of the escort
carriers and are beginning to hit their targets regularly. What many look
upon as a miracle now takes place. Kurita fearing that attacking aircraft
are from Halsey's TF 38 orders a withdrawal. This is a major error since
Sprague's force could not held out much longer; the Japanese could have then
reached and destroyed much of the transport fleet off of Leyte. While Kurita
is turning his force around, Kamikaze planes attack Sprague's force and hit
four escort carriers. Kurita continues to retire toward the San Bernardino
Strait and is attacked by more US aircraft on the way.

While the other actions are taking place, Halsey is leading the battleships
and main carrier force north to intercept Ozawa, who has fulfilled his mission
of being a decoy. In the morning the air attacks begin and two Japanese
carriers are sunk. By midday, Halsey hears news of what is going on in the
south and reverses course with the battleships and one carrier group. The
other two carrier groups continue the pursuit of Ozawa, sinking the remaining
carriers as well as two destoyers and a cruiser. Halsey's return south is too
late to catch Kurita.

Burma - The British 36th Division, advancing from Upper Burma, reaches a point
25 miles past Namma; where they are held up by a strong Japanese
counter-attack.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "Facts On File Yearbook 1944,
Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.netcom.com in directory /pub/jbd and can
be accessed via the WWW by URL: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/jbd/ww2.html. If you
have difficulty accessing the Netcom FTP server, please keep trying because it
stays very busy.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis     [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 24 Oct 1994 07:12:14 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HIST: V2 and von Braun

Hello, William!

If von Braun was in the SS, it was an honorary situation similar to
von Ribbentrop, Bormann, etc.

    Terry
>     Was he a real member of the SS, having gone through the schools, training,
> and officially on the payroll, or was he an honorary member, like Martin
> Bormann, people in the Kripo, etc.
>
> William Lippert
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 24 Oct 1994 08:44:26 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Churchill's bad decisions (from Economic Causes of the

On Mon, 24 Oct 1994 02:34:10 +0100 Emmanuel Gustin said:
>Before WWII, it was widely believed that bombardments would easily break
>civilian morale. I think that the experience from WWII shows that, as long
>as people feel that they can do something --- maybe not shoot back
>directly, or extinguish fires, or just survive it --- the threat will
>actually unite them against the common enemy.

There's another factor at work as well, I think:  one can't surrender to an
airplane.  Since one can't, might as well carry on with what one is doing.

>BTW, the V-1 and V-2 attacks were an exception, probably because the
>British people were tired of the war, and because of the a-personal nature
>of the weapon. They had a very adverse effect on the morale.

Indeed.  I think people felt consciously or un that these attacks were more
like malign chance than an enemy assault.  Also, the V2s gave little warning
of their approach, which added to the feeling of helplessness and terror.
The first section of the otherwise surreal =Gravity's Rainbow= gives a
fairly good impression of what it must have felt like, I feel.

ken koester
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 24 Oct 1994 09:12:17 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: USN Chronology 10-24-94

1944
10/24 Tue.
Submarine TANG (SS-306), by circular run of her own
              torpedo, north of Formosa.

RATS RATS RATS!  I meant to add this question BEFORE this posted...
Several months ago, I took the tour of the USS Torsk which is a WWII and
post WWII sub, now open for tours in Baltimore's Inner Harbor.  The veteran
volunteer, while recounting his knowledge (at my request) of the Tang, and
the fateful run of her 24th and last torpedo, mentioned that to this day,
the exact location of her final resting place is not published information.
Noting that the majority of the Chronology posts DO have coordinates, and
the Tang report does not, I'm wondering if anyone may know a) if this is
indeed the case, and b) if so, why?

Thanks.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 24 Oct 1994 09:58:10 EDT
From:    Brian Nicklas <[email-masked]>
Subject: Publication AFV News

Recent foray into the Washington DC Squadron Shop showed that AFV News
is still very much alive.  Vol 29, #3 (Sept-Dec 1994) on the stand.
Back issues available.
George Bradford
AFV News
RR 32
Cambridge, Ontario,
N3H  4R7
Canada

Still looks the same as it did in the past.
(If it isn't broke, why fix it?  :-)  )

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 24 Oct 1994 12:45:24 -0400
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: John Keegan

To all those living in the Boston area:

I just noticed that John Keegan will be speaking at the B.U. bookstore
(Kenmore Square) on November 10 @ 5:30 about his book _A History of
Warfare_. Just thought you all would like to know. Cheers,
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 24 Oct 1994 20:15:08 +0300
From:    Ozgur Altinyay <[email-masked]>
Subject: <No subject given>

        First and most imporant of all :

        Thank you very much my brothers-in-arms Scott and Arnoud for your
replies to my mail for a mail order company. It will help me a lot after
in my second life. (If there is really a life after University of course).
         By the way , does anyone know about the motorcycles used by the Germans
in the wars. I would like to have some general information about them - or a
source that I can read about them. I  am especially interested in one certain
type of cycle - collapsible type that is parachutable and probably used in
by the Skorzeny's group in the Bulge.
        I had heard about this before and even saw about it in a documentary
lately  (dont know the name - probably a American one) but I am not sure since
it may be due to the bad Turkish translation of the narration.
        Does anyone know about this ?
        And finally since What Ifs become so popular in those days , I would like to ask
What if We - the Turks had entered the war AGAINST the Germans . This is a very popular
question in Turkia. The my scenario is that Germans could have swept aside our army
in Thrace and rather plunging into Anatolia , would have kept Istanbul or at most
advance to the Batumi border with USSR after installing a puppet government.
Perhaps Rommel would then have some of our infantry divisions in Africa in place of
the Italians ( are we better fighters than them ? I am not sure if this something
to be proud of) and certainly a much larger Turkish army in the Caucasus fighting
against the Russians under a German  Leadership - the perfect WW I joint Turko-German
 solution. I would like to point out that Turkish army at that time was innocent
of the gadgets of a modern war save for a battalion of very light tanks of Russian
 design and a few Bofors 40 mm guns. (It was late in the war that we got the things
like FW 190,B-24 and Tiger) and only the infantry of our army can be counted
in a war. At the end Turkey was certain to be  be a part of the iron curtain.
        Then, I would like to see what kind of projections can be made by the
denizens of this list about our entry into the war ? I w ll be very happy to reply
to any question about Turkey for the projection.

Ozgur Altinyay

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 24 Oct 1994 14:02:34 CDT
From:    Robert Hohlt <[email-masked]>
Subject: [GEN/MEDIA] was "Dumb Luck" in the Phillipines

Steve L. New  Fri, 21 Oct 1994 wrote:

> As a result of these 5 strikes, Yamato, the Admirals new
> flagship takes two bomb hits, the Battleship Nagato loses a turret,
> ans the unsinkable Mushashi, sister ship to Yamato, takes a total of
> 17 bomb and 19 torpedo strikes before she finally sinks.

Joe Barone's Regia Marina stories told us about the British raid on
Taranto where 21 british aircraft put 5 torpedo hits on 3 Italian
battleships and left these 3 in a sinking or sunk condition after
the raid.  I asked if these ships were manned by skeleton crews and
if they had any sort of damage control organization.  Note the number
of bomb and torpedo hits on the Mushashi to sink her.  I am not
comparing any of (or even all three put together) the Italian
battleships to the Mushashi but very few weapons caused 3 of their
number a lot of trouble.

I just found the Taranto raid to be very ironic since Italy and
England were at war and operating under war time conditions I would
guess.

Perhaps the Italians really did not have the heart to wage war at
the time as some of you have posted on this list.

Do any of your resources have any mention of the Italian Admirals or
Generals at Taranto being made scapegoats i.e., Kimmel and Short?
Were there any new promotions to the bottom of the Mediterranean
as a result? :^)?

Steve L. New  Fri, 21 Oct 1994 also wrote:

> Changing the subject slightly:

> I've often wondered why Hollywood hasn't made an epic film covering
> the battle for the Phillipines.  You've got enough air/sea battle
> going on to rival both Tora! Tora! Tora! and Midway together.  In the
> Marianas Turkey Shoot you have more dogfighting than in the Battle of
> Britain, there is enough ship to ship action out in Suribao Straight
> to cover the Graf Spee and Sink the Bismark,

I know of 1 slightly related book/movie. It is/was a fictional story and
then a movie by Otto Preminger called "In Harm's Way".  The Japanese send
a very powerfull force (Yamato + cruisers + destroyers) through the
"Pala Passage" at night (the Japanese are attacked in Pala Passage by U.S.
PT boats) and then fight a one sided battle with allied destroyers and light
cruisers and heavy cruiser "Ole Swayback".  The allied ships are trying to
protect the allied beachhead on a contested island.  After winning the sea
battle the Japanese turn around for no apparent reason and go back the way
they came.  In the book version,  the allies  have a number of escort carriers
which also fight the Japanese force.  At the end of the movie when Radm Torry
says "seven ships sacrificed" the seventh ship was an escort carrier not
seen in the movie.

Is this just too much coincidence?    I think not.
Enough ranting about my favorite movie though.

Regards,

Robert Hohlt, Jr.
------------------------------------------------
Ljg McConnell : Does anybody on this bridge see
                anything back there?

Boats : Well if they does Mr. McConnell, I guarantee
        they'll never see nothin again!

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 24 Oct 1994 14:46:54 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HIST: V2 and von Braun

Hello, Drew!

Thanks for the note, and hope you are well.

> may have held the title of SS-Ehrenfuhrer (SS honorary leader).  If this was
> the case, a Waffen-SS rangliste would be of no help.

    That would depend. The DAL of 1937 and 1944 is a complete listing
of all officers down to Hauptsturmfuehrer on active duty. There is an
addendum that also deals with those thrown out of the SS for various
reasons, those reinstated, etc. There should also be a listing of the
honorary members as well. It has been some time since I viewed mine,
but I will research this. I am certain that von Braun was an
honorary member. It was fashionable to join that organization and, I
am certain that vB was told it would enhance his career.

    Anyway, thanks for the note and all the best.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 24 Oct 1994 14:57:02 CDT
From:    Robert Hohlt <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Teaching WWII in Germany today.

Alan Wild Thu, 20 Oct 1994 wrote:

>Hi Ludwig, Erik, and William,...

>I wanted to thank the German respondants for their offerings...

Alan,

I also wish to thank the German respondants.  I am glad
to find out that WWII is gone over in some way,
unlike the Japanese generations since WWII that have not been
taught anything or have been given very one sided and biased
information.

thats my $0.015
Robert Hohlt, Jr.
[email-masked]
Cmdr Eddington : Ole Rock of Ages.  We got ourselves
                 another war.  A gut bustin mother lovin
                 Navy war.
Cptn Torry : It does seem to shape up that way Commander
             Eddington.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 24 Oct 1994 15:01:16 -0500
From:    Terrence Lindell <[email-masked]>
Subject: SUBMARINES

>From John  D. Alden, U.S. SUBMARINE ATTACKS DURING WORLD
WAR II (Annapolis:  Naval Institute Press, 1989), 146:

USS TANG was lost at 25N 119E.  (This source, which typically
lists both degress and minutes for submarine attacks, lists
only degrees for TANG).  It offers no explanation as to why
a closer report is not given.  Given the circumstances of
TANG's loss, is it possible no closer approximation of the
sub's position is known?

DARTER (SS-227) was lost due to grounding on 24 October 1944.
DACE (SS-247) survived the war.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 24 Oct 1994 15:18:10 CDT
From:    Robert Hohlt <[email-masked]>
Subject: George Gay

Wasn't it also Gay that flew down the deck of one of the Japanese
carriers in his Devastator to escape the AA fire?

Wow.

RIP.

Robert Hohlt, Jr.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 24 Oct 1994 16:15:05 -0400
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: Bittersweet Reunion

        I saw this in the newspaper over the weekend.

        Quantico, Va. - Paul Flanagan was Dorothy Thompson's first love, but
World War II came between them.  Fifty years later, they were reunited, only
to be struck and killed by a car as they crossed a highway.

        Flanagan, 71, of San Jose, Calif., and Thompson, 69, of Owensboro,
Ky., died Wednesday night -- 50 years to the day after she turned down his
marriage proposal.

        The couple had just finished a pizza dinner when they were hit
while trying to cross a seven-lane highway.  Witnesses said they were
carried more than 60 feet on the car's roof before the car could stop.
No charges were filed.

PS: I've been out of action with the flu for the past few days so I'm a
little behind with WWII administrative stuff.  Please bear with me as I
try to catch up with various requests.  I'll resume the Regia Marina
installments shortly.  Thanks.
--
Joe Barone, WWII-L listowner
[email-masked]
Don't fool around with the women -- their husbands carry
guns!  And don't forget the penalty for looting is death!

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 24 Oct 1994 15:09:03 CCS
From:    Jorge Merino <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WWII Chronology?

I have some questions:

1. Regarding 10/23 and 10/24 chronologies:

> 1944
> 10/23 Mon. Battle for Leyte Gulf.........
.....lines deleted.......
>             Japanese naval vessels sunk, off Palawan, P. I.:
>              Heavy cruiser MAYA, by submarine DACE (SS-247),
>               09 d. 11'N., 117 d. 07'E.
>              Heavy cruiser ATAGO, by submarine DARTER (SS-227),
>               09 d. 28'N., 117 d. 17'E.

> 1944
> 10/24 Tue. Battle for Leyte Gulf.........
.....lines deleted.......
>             United States naval vessels sunk:
>              Submarine DARTER (SS-117), damaged by grounding,
>               Bombay Shoal, Palawan Passage, P. I.; destroyed by
>               United States  forces.

Are we talking about the same USS Darter? I know that there can't
be more than one commissioned ship with the same name, so, I guess
USS Darter was either SS-117 or SS-227. (A typo, I think)??

2. Regarding 10/24 posting:

> 1944
> 10/24 Tue. Battle for Leyte Gulf.........
.....lines deleted.......
>             United States naval vessels sunk:
>              Light carrier PRINCETON (CVL-23), damaged by dive
>               bomber, Battle for Leyte Gulf,
>               15 d. 12'N., 123 d. 36'E.;
>               sunk by United States forces.
>              Submarine DARTER (SS-117), damaged by grounding,
>               Bombay Shoal, Palawan Passage, P. I.; destroyed by
>               United States  forces.
>              Submarine TANG (SS-306), by circular run of her own
>               torpedo, north of Formosa.
>              Ocean tug  SONOMA (ATO-12), by suicide plane,
>               Battle for Leyte Gulf,
>               10 d. 57'N., 125 d. 02'E.
>             United States naval vessels damaged, Battle for
>              Leyte Gulf:
>              Light cruiser BIRMINGHAM (CL-62) and destroyers
>               MORRISON (DD-560), GATLING (DD-671), and IRWIN
>               (DD-794), by rolling against PRINCETON (CVL-23)
>               while alongside, and by fragments from her
>               exploding magazines.

It is interesting to note how this day, most of the sunk US Navy
ships were "finished" by their own forces, and many of the damaged
US Navy ships were also damaged by own US Navy accidents.

>              LST 695, by underwater explosion,
>               08 d. 31'N., 128 d. 34'E.

Theron, do you know what was the origin of that underwater explosion?

Jorge Merino

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 24 Oct 1994 15:16:41 -0500
From:    Terrence Lindell <[email-masked]>
Subject: HOME FRONT - WASTE FATS

>From the WAVERLY [IOWA] DEMOCRAT, 6 Oct 1944:

The OPA reports that waste fat collections have declined
since D-Day.  Apparently the euphoria over Allied advances
in France during the summer of 1944 convinced people that
the war would soon be over [by early September Waverly
already had a detailed schedule of events for V-Day, the
date of victory against the Nazis].  The OPA was concerned
about this because waste fat was still needed for the
war effort.  The article contained a series of four
cartoons that showed that waste fat [the chemical formula
for which was C3H5O3(C18H35O)3--subscript all the numbers]
could be converted into glycerine [C3H8O3] for military
medicines and explosives, into oleic acid [C18H34O2]
to help produce nylon for parachutes, and into
nitroglycerine [C3H5O3(NO3)3] for smokeless powder.

I do not know if there were additional steps taken to
increase waste fat salvage at this point, although
local grocers reported that the recent increase in
ration points for butter seemed to convince consumers
of the advantages of turning waste fat for points.

As a side note, there was a Mildred Bailey song during
the war entitled "Scrap Your Fat."

Terry Lindell
Department of History
Wartburg College
Waverly, Iowa  50677
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 24 Oct 1994 17:41:33 EDT
From:    Brian Nicklas <[email-masked]>
Subject: Media: Public TV

The series "The American Experience" broadcast on Public Television
stations will be showing an episode on the Battle of the Bulge
in November.  There are also other programs listed at various
stations, such as "Fighter Pilot's Story" on WETA in the
Washington, DC area.  Fighter Pilot's Story is a very good
piece done by a 9th AF P-47 pilot, using archival photos and footage,
plus images from the subject and his wife (then sweetheart).
Additional broadcast include showings of "The Fighting Sullivans"
and other wartime or immed. post-war films.
Keep looking at the PBS listings in November, there is some
good stuff out there!

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 24 Oct 1994 22:43:51 GMT
From:    SYSTEM 0PERATOR <[email-masked]>
Subject: HYPO:Turkey in the war

Ozgur Altinyay <[email-masked]> writes:

>         First and most imporant of all :
>
>         Thank you very much my brothers-in-arms Scott and Arnoud for your
> replies to my mail for a mail order company. It will help me a lot after
> in my second life. (If there is really a life after University of course).

You are welcome. Good luck for the plunge into the professional world.

> question in Turkia. The my scenario is that Germans could have swept aside ou

Tigers in the Turkish Army ?!  Flabbergasting. How did they procure them ?
Could the Germans spare any for export ?

Your scenario looks quite realistic to me. The war showed how armies without
adequate weapons and motorization could be swallowed. Probably a great bag of
Turkish prisoners in the German camps - I shudder at the way the Germans would
have treated those "non-Aryans".

> Perhaps Rommel would then have some of our infantry divisions in Africa in
>pl of the Italians ( are we better fighters than them ? I am not sure if this
> sometg to be proud of) and certainly a much larger Turkish army in the Caucasus
> figh

Oh well...Is there to be any shame in being "bad fighters" anyway ? I do not
remember who said the Italians were too pacific a people to be good
fighters...and to build extermination camps (hmmm...sure to draw the
comments of the Italian Army fans out there...!).

Anyway, I too would imagine the Germans stopping in Constantinople, so as to
avoid a costly guerilla warfare in Anatolia. Yes, a puppet regime in
Constantinople, certainly. Could Turkey have switched to the Axis then ?
what do you think was the state of Turkish opinion in 1941 ? Pro-German due
to the WWI alliance, or reactive to any agressor ?

I agree very much to the vision of a Turkey "liberated" by the Russians
afterwards. With a satellite regime there, Stalin would have had a dreamt-of
access to the Mediterranean and the Middle East. Unless the British landed
there as in Greece to secure it from Communist hands...a split Turkey ? New
scenarios for the "WW-III what-if" buffs ?

Arnaud.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 24 Oct 1994 18:15:58 -0500
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: Amphibian Tractors and Sandbags

To Ben Frank and others who may know (or can hazard a guess)
On p. 20 of the Summer 1994 issue of FORTITUDINE, there is a picture of
the 1st Armored Amphibian Tractor Battalion going in at Okinawa.  I have
2 questions.

1. The vehicle closest to the camera appears to have small bags encircling
it.  They look like sandbags to me.  Does anyone know if they are?  If they
are sandbags, did they really help protect the vehicle?  If not full of
sand, what is in them?  They obviously get wet.

2. What kind of a weapon was mounted in the turret of these tractors?  It
appears to be some kind of short-barrelled mortar.

TIA
Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 24 Oct 1994 19:21:46 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: CVE-106   USS Block Island

From: Dictionary of American Fighting Ships, Vol. I, 1964, Navy
Department, Office of the Chief of Naval Operations, Naval History
Division, Washington, D.C.

BLOCK ISLAND (CVE-106)

dp. 11,373;
l. 577' 1";
b. 105' 2";
dr. 32';
s. 19.1 k.;
cpl. 1066'
a. 2 5";
cl. COMMENCEMENT BAY

The second BLOCK ISLAND (CVE-106) was launched 10 June 1944 as SUNSET
BAY by Todd-Pacific Shipyards, Inc., Tacoma, Wash.; sponsored by Mrs. L.
J. Hallenbeck; and commissioned as BLOCK ISLAND 30 December 1944,
Captain F. M. Hughes in command.

BLOCK ISLAND got underway for Pearl Harbor 20 March 1945.  Upon arrival
she underwent a period of provisioning and training in preparations for
the invasion of Okinawa.  On 17 April BLOCK ISLAND left Hawaii and
steamed toward Okinawa, via Ulithi.  Flight operations commenced
immediately upon her arrival 3 May and lasted until 16 June when she
departed for Leyte.  After a brief stay at San Pedro Bay, the carrier
steamed through the Straits of Makassar for Borneo.  Between 26 June and
6 July she took part in the Balikpapan operation.  She then proceeded to
Guam where she was anchored at the time of the cessation of hostilities.
During 6-9 September she took part in the evacuation of Allied prisoners
of war from Formosa.  She continued cruising in the Far East until 14
October and arrived at San Diego 11 December 1945.  Leaving San Diego 5
January 1946, she transited the Panama Canal and reached Norfolk on the
20th.  She was placed in service in reserve 28 May 1946.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 24 Oct 1994 18:28:00 -0500
From:    Greg Kelley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Polish Army vehicles

This sounds like a very interesting future discussion, not only because
of the role that that battalion of Polish Renault R-35 tanks played in
the re-equipping of the Rumanian 1st Panzer Division (though there IS that).
Perhaps you are in a position to let those of us interested in such
matters know whether the Polish KOP ever used any armoured vehicles?  I
realise they were primarily a frontier guard force, but since they
included cavalry were they motorised?

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 24 Oct 1994 18:38:45 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <[email-masked]>
Subject: "Old 59"

I read somewhere that a B-25 called "Old 59" was supposed to have completed
859 hours and 45 minutes of combat time, including 121 missions, in 1944,
which was supposed to have been a record for the year.

Does this sound familiar to anyone?

  =========================================================================
  | DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:                         |
  |                                  | Computers in Business & Education. |
  | Recently returned from my second | Education:  Curriculum development.|
  |   extended stay in Prague.       |    International Education, TEFL.  |
  | Working on second book about     | Central Europe:  Post revolution   |
  |   Prague and new Czech Republic  |    economic, social, political     |
  |   and a book about the B-25      |    problems and opportunities.     |
  |   in WWII.                       | B-25 in WWII.                      |
  | E-Mail:                          | Free lance writing and editing.    |
  |   USA:  [email-masked]    | Stamp collecting.                  |
  |         [email-masked] |                                    |
  =========================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 24 Oct 1994 18:48:46 -0500
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [INF] USAAF 24 OCT 44

Jack-
I never realized that so many days had weather bad enough to force
cancellation of most or all missions.  Do you, or any of the other Air
Force types out there, know what the standard was for cancelling missions?
i.e., 100% cloud cover or winds over 40 knots?

TIA
Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 24 Oct 1994 18:44:22 -0500
From:    Greg Kelley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HYPO: The "Big" what-if? (B-36s & AA missiles)

Henry, regarding whether or not the Germans would've developed AA rocket
batteries, I simply figured that if the US had B-36s in a "what-if"
history that hadn't seen much use for B-24s or B-29s, then hey, the
Germans might've seen a need for Rheintochters.  I agree with your
comments that Germany had little (if any) hope of defeating the US, what
with their enormous resources.

Of course, I'd rather you suggest that the German radar installation at
Spitzbergen had been conveniently disabled by a pre-emptive raid from
members of the Norwegian underground assisted by US rangers......

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 24 Oct 1994 19:04:18 -0500
From:    Drew Halevy <[email-masked]>
Subject: ME163

I was watching WINGS today and they were talking about the ME163. They
said that the 163 suffered as many losses on the ground from refueling as
they did in combat. Does anyone have an figures on these losses. Also, it
has become clear in my few months on this list that some of you must have
excellent libraries. The question that I have what would reccommend as
the single best works on-

WWII overall
The Battle of Britian
The Luftwaffe (sp?)
The Pacific War
Normandy
The Russian Front
Omar Bradley

Thanks in advance to all-Drew Halevy

Drew  Philip Halevy      |  Qui desiderat pacem,
Graduate Student         |  praeparet bellum-
Department of History    |  Let him who desires peace, prepare for war-
University of Arkansas   |  Vegetius
[email-masked]    |

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 24 Oct 1994 19:52:25 -0500
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: Sonar

Recent messages about whether escorts were necessary for large luxury
liners brought up some questions in my mind; hopefully someone on the
list will have some answers.

I think I remember reading somewhere that WW II sonar sets were not
much good if the ship was traveling more than about 8-10 knots.  The
water traveling past the sonar dome would cause too much interference
above that speed.  Does anyone know if that was true or can you confirm
it?

Also, I believe destroyers in WW II used hydrophones, which were basically
passive listening devices.  I assume that they had 360 degree listening
capability.  Sonar was something different, because it sent out a signal
and the operator listened for echoes.  (I think they may have used the
hydrophone headgear to listen for sonar returns.)  It is my understanding
that sonar in WW II had a very narrow beam and had to be pointed.  When
a destroyer was looking for a submarine, for example, it had to slowly
sweep an area a few degrees at a time.  Does anyone know if that is true
and just how wide the search beam was?

Sorry if this is very obvious or has been covered before.  I didn't have
handy access to any source for this.  TIA

Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 24 Oct 1994 21:41:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 25 OCT 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
WEDNESDAY, 25 OCTOBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  P-61, Northrop Black Widow

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): 6 B-25s and 4 P-38s damage railroad
tracks at Dara bridge in Thailand. In China, 7 P-38s and P-51s hit the Mongyu
bridges and destroy the Kawnghka bridge; 4 others strafe Nawnghkio Airfield;
20+ P-51s and P-40s on armed reconnaissance attack targets of opportunity at
Tengyun, Kweiping, and Ssuanghsu, and about 50 strike targets throughout
the Menghsu area.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Twentieth Air Force): 59 B-29s, flying out of
Chengtu, China, bomb an aircraft plant at Omura, Kyushu Island, Japan;
several other B-29s hit alternate targets and targets of opportunity.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 688: 1,250 bombers and
522 fighters are dispatched to hit oil and industrial targets in W Germany;
2 bombers and 1 fighter are lost; the first three forces use H2X while the
4th and 5th use GH:
  1. 455 B-17s are dispatched to hit the Harburg (221) and Rhenania oil
refineries (214) at Hamburg; 1 other hits a target of opportunity; 1 B-17 is
lost and 94 damaged; 9 airmen are MIA. Escort is provided by 129 of 139
P-51s; 1 P-51 is lost and 1 damaged beyond repair.
  2. 225 B-24s are dispatched to hit Neumunster Airfield (216); targets of
opportunity are Munster (3) and Utersum (1); no losses. Escort is provided by
41 of 42 P-51s without loss.
  3. 297 B-17s dispatched to hit the primary hit secondaries, Harburg (179)
and Rhenania oil refineries (106) at Hamburg; 1 other hits a target of
opportunity; 1 B-17 is lost and 16 damaged; 1 airman is WIA and 9 MIA. Escort
is provided by 221 of 255 P-51s without loss.
  4. 131 B-17s are dispatched to hit synthetic oil targets at Gelsenkirchen/
Nordstern (27); 100 others hit the secondary, the marshalling yard at Hamm;
49 B-17s are damaged. Escort is provided by 50 of 50 P-47s without loss.
  5. 142 B-24s are dispatched to hit synthetic oil targets at Scholven/Buer
(91); 34 hit the secondary at Munster and 1 hits Gronua; 39 B-24s are
damaged. Escort is provided by 34 of 36 P-47s without loss.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): HQ First Tactical Air Force
(Provisional) is established, but not yet organized, therefore HQ Ninth AF
continues to administer, supply, and control all XII Tactical Air Command and
assigned units until mid Nov when the First Tactical AF assumes full control.
  9th Bombardment Division's missions are cancelled because of bad weather.
Fighters fly sweeps, hit rail and military targets in the Saarbrucken,
Germany area, and support the US XIX Corps in W Germany.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Weather again limits operations.
In Austria, 3 B-17s bomb a Klagenfurt aircraft factory and Sankt Veit an der
Glan marshalling yard. 5 P-38s complete 3 weather reconnaissance missions.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, weather again grounds
medium bombers; fighter-bombers blast guns, vehicles, and communications in
the battle area S of Bologna while fighters destroy 20+ locomotives in the
Piacenza area; the 10th Troop Carrier Squadron moves from Brindisi to
Pomigliano with C-47s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 29 Saipan Island-based B-24s bomb Iwo Jima
Island during the morning. Later during the day 4 B-24s from Saipan and Guam
Islands, on armed reconnaissance missions, bomb Yap Island. 8 P-47s from
Saipan Island bomb Pagan Island. HQ 11th Bombardment Group (Heavy) moves from
Kwajalein Atoll to Guam Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: 50+ B-24s,
supported by P-38s and P-47s, attack naval forces in the Mindanao Sea of
the Philippine Islands, firing small vessels and claiming a light cruiser
damaged. On Celebes Island, B-24s bomb Ambesia Airfield and attack shipping
in the Makassar-Kendari area. In the Moluccas Islands, fighter-bombers hit
barges and villages in areas of Dodinga and Wasile Bays. B-25s, A-20s, and
fighter-bombers hit Piroe and Saparoea in the Moluccas Islands, Boela on
Ceram Island, Halong on Celebes Island, Amboina on Ambon Island, Haroekoe on
Haroekoe Island, and N Ceram coastal targets. A-20s pound supply and fuel
dumps in the Sarmi, New Guinea area. The 8th Fighter Squadron, 49th Fighter
Group moves from Biak Island to Tacloban, Leyte Island with P-38s; and the
421st Night Fighter Squadron, V Fighter Command, moves from Owi, Schouten
Islands to Tacloban, Leyte Island with P-38s and P-61s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

25/0144Z OCT

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 24 Oct 1994 20:49:54 -0600
From:    Tony Schuler <[email-masked]>
Subject: Waffen SS

Last Sunday (10/23) the Discovery Channel presented a show on the Waffen SS.
I was wondering if anyone saw it. I recorded it, and expected to hear comments
about the show. Unfortunately, I have not had time to review it. Any reviews,
gentleman.

Tony Schuler
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 24 Oct 1994 20:49:19 -0500
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <[email-masked]>
Subject: PUB: The Luftwaffe and Air War in the Mediterranean

I would be very thankful if anyone has any suggestions about sources
about the Luftwaffe in the Mediterranean area during WW II; or about
the air war in general in the Mediterranean.  You could post sources
to me or to the list in general.  If there is any interest, I will
compile the list and post for everyone to see.  I am particularly
interested in sources on North Africa, the Balkans, Malta, Crete,
etc., but not necessarily in the Italian campaign or the battle
for Southern France.

TIA
Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 24 Oct 1994 22:33:10 EST
From:    "CARL WERNKE (TCWERNC@VCCSCENT)" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: Long Lance torpedo---_WAR PLAN ORANGE_

 To: Multiple recipients of list WWII-L([email-masked])

 Edward S. Miller writes in _WAR PLAN ORANGE_, page 355,
 >Japan had some technological and tactical surprises up its sleeve... the
 >"long lance" torpedo.

 This is the IJN Type 93, Model 1, Modification 1 (destroyers) torpedo.
 Who named the torpedo "long lance, and why ?

 Carl Wernke
 [email-masked]

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Date:    Mon, 24 Oct 1994 23:29:56 EDT
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Best WWII Books (formerly Me163)

Dear Drew.

My nominations on best books:

On WWII overall, perhaps Martin Gilbert's study, or the revised
edition of Calvocoressi and Wint.

On the Russian front, Albert Seaton-Watson's THE RUSSO-GERMAN WAR,
by default. It was good at the time, but there is now a truckload
of new data on the Russian side, and some important new monographs              have appeared on the German side. Most of the good books on the
Eastern front are multi-volume: the two volume set by Earl Ziemke,
the three volumes by John Erickson (don't read the last two without
some background- they are more collections of information than
fully realized volumes), and the relevant volumes of the English
translation of DAS DEUTSCHE REICH UND DER ZWEITE WELTKRIEG, which
I think Cambridge is publishing. Also keep an eye out for anything
by David Glantz.

On the Pacific, John Costello is good, but supplement it with Louis
Allen's BURMA. We tend to forget that from the Japanese perspective
the war extended west to Bengal. There is nothing really good on
China and Manchuria.

On Normandy, I've heard good things about Carlo D'Este's volume,
but I'll leave that to the people who know the western war better
than I do.

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 24 Oct 1994 23:20:57 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WWII Chronology?

>>              LST 695, by underwater explosion,
>>               08 d. 31'N., 128 d. 34'E.
>
>Theron, do you know what was the origin of that underwater explosion?
>
>Jorge Merino

As I've mentioned to a few before, I only read 'em and post 'em!  I
would have to GUESS that being an LST, it must have run into a mine of
some sort.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA 22448 USA
[email-masked]

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End of WWII-L Digest - 23 Oct 1994 to 24 Oct 1994
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