Subject: WWII-L Digest - 7 Oct 1994 to 8 Oct 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 9 Oct 1994 00:00:31 -0400

There are 23 messages totalling 539 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. CARLSON'S RAIDERS (2)
  2. Switzerland in WWII (2)
  3. EDU:Re: Peleliu write-up
  4. MEDIA: WAIT FOR PURPLE (2)
  5. TACT:Could they have
  6. ITALY IN WW2, MY $
  7. Homefront: All Nations, Production
  8. INF: USN Chronology 10-08-94
  9. BIO:  Wingate
 10. Invasion of Crete -- Operation Merkur
 11. CARLSON'S & EDSON'S RA
 12. INF: 50 Years Ago - 09-OCT-1944
 13. CHURCHILL'S BAD DE (2)
 14. DISC u-boats, a new topic
 15. TACT:COULD THEY HA (4)
 16. Landing craft (new book)

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Date:    Sat, 8 Oct 1994 00:05:23 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: CARLSON'S RAIDERS

One of the primary reasons behind Churchill's appreciation of special forces,
commandos, et al, is the fact that they were the only ones scoring any points,
even a small number, after Dunkirk. The German perimeter was spread wide and
vulnerable to small attacks, raids, and the like. His enthusiasm infected FDR,
who was faced with the litter after Pearl Harbor, and so Raiders were born,
created in the Marine Corps. I have already posted a long note on this, and
shan't repeat myself. But it should be remembered that Raiders mounted only one
raid, Makin, and then were used as conventional infantry. It seems that at one
point early in the war, FDR wanted to turn the Marine Corps into one large
raider/commando establishment with William Donovan, given a Marine generalship,
at the head. This scheme went for naught. The reference for this story is "GI
Dagger-Herrinbone Twill," by then-Maj Robert Mattingly, available from the
Marine Corps Historical Center. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Oct 1994 23:07:15 -0500
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Switzerland in WWII

>     Regarding similar escape stories, what about Franz von Werra's
> escape from a Canadian POW camp, making his way through the US,
> neutral at the time, into Mexico, where he made contact with the
> German embassy, boarded ship there, and finally arrived in Germany
> safe and sound. He was restored to flying status but was later shot
> down and killed on the Eastern Front.
>
>     Terry

As I recall, he mailed a postcard to the camp commander postmarked New
York City.  He made quite a splash when he made it back to Germany.  I
thought I remembered that he stowed away on a ship headed for Hamburg
or something like that.... damn alzheimers....

Cheers, Bill Huber / [email-masked]

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Date:    Sat, 8 Oct 1994 00:07:16 EST
From:    "CARL WERNKE (TCWERNC@VCCSCENT)" <[email-masked]>
Subject: EDU:Re: Peleliu write-up

 To: Multiple recipients of list WWII-L([email-masked])

 John Davis wrote:
 > Wed, 5 Oct 1994 18:43:09 -0700
 > A couple of months ago, someone posted to the list a very detailed
 > write-up on Peleliu... could you send me a private email message?
 > The article was posted back sometime in the summer. Thanks.

 I was on vacation from May 25 to Aug 10, 1994. Would you please send your
 post to me also, or possibly to the list. I am sure many users would
 appreciate your very appropriate post.---TIA.

 Carl Wernke
 [email-masked]

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Date:    Sat, 8 Oct 1994 00:21:17 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: MEDIA: WAIT FOR PURPLE

Interestingly enough about Peleliu, although I sent a nasty note to the
Washington Post about its having overlooked the 50th anniversary of the landing
there, today the paper finally printed an article about the operation, but the
item it hanged the story on was the fact that Peleliu grows one of the largest
cash crops of marijuana anywhere, and that planes land reguarly on the old
landing strips to carry off the crop. To think that all those 1st Marine
Division and 81st Infantry Division young American warriors died to preserve
MacArthur's flank and to provide a fertile area for growing pot. The older I
get, the more amazed I become.
Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Oct 1994 23:02:00 UTC
From:    "Edward S. Miller" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TACT:Could they have

Jim Brady asks:
  > I wonder: at what point =during= the war did the Allies believe they
  > were over the hump, that victory was beyond question?   Anyone?

  I suggest two dates for the western Allies:
  Jan. 1943, Casablanca: FDR announces goal of unconditional surrender of
all Axis powers.  He had to be pretty sure it could be done.
  Aug. 1943: Quadrant conference of Allied planners at Quebec: adopted
estimate of defeating Germany by end of 1944 and Japan within one year after.
  IMHO, the dominant background facts were (1) confidence in the Soviets'
two winter victories and feeling sure Stalin would not make a separate
peace); and (2) confidence that US industry would attain its mobilization
goals.
  Edward S. Miller   [email-masked]

=END=

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 8 Oct 1994 00:44:52 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ITALY IN WW2, MY $

Good question, Terry. I don't think that you can compare the Marauders with the
Raiders, primarily because of the training each had, but more importantly
because of the areas in which each fought. The Marauders fought not only the
Japanese but also the miserable, stinking jungle, in which they remained for
long periods. On the other hand, the Raiders raided, Makin, for instance, and
then were taken off the next day, I believe it was. Edson's Raiders
participated in the Gavutu landing and then were brought over to Guadalcanal to
fight as regular riflemen. Carlson's Raiders landed on Guadalcanal after the
initial landing, and went on a long trek forward of the line for a period of
days in which they had a number of engagements with the enemy. Unlike the
Marauders, they didn't have to worry about pack mules, leeches, and the
constant damp of the jungle, although Guadalcanal was no health spa, either.
The temperature there was high, it was humid, and it was hell going through
tall, razor-edged kunai grass. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 8 Oct 1994 00:13:48 EDT
From:    William Lippert <[email-masked]>
Subject: Homefront: All Nations, Production

Hello, my good friends!  I am in desperate need of help.  Well, at
least I will be.  Jack McKillop quoted FDR as saying, "Those who have
long enjoyed such privileges as we enjoy forget in time that men have died
to win them."

I take this message in earnest and have always believed it my duty to all
people who perished tragically in the Great World War II to not allow
the world to forget that incredible event in human history.  So it is
that I am giving an oral presentation to my US Foreign Economic Policy
class called, "Producing Victory - America's Economy in WWII".

The goal of this is to reinstill into my classmates the pride of our
history and the knowledge that Americans can win.  Not just by a hair,
either, but by a mile.  What I am looking for is
1) how the economy was switched from peace to war (managed economics, etc.)
2) production figures (ships, planes, etc.)
3) how we paid for it (war bond drives, etc.)
4) how our performance compared with all other nations (Allied and Axis)

Am I wrong to say that America performed a production miracle?  Was it just
that we had lots'o people?  I have been lead to believe that America did
do something special - building a ship in six hours was no small feat!

Do you think that this oral report is just a plain bad idea?  Any reading
recommendations?  I'm pretty much open to whatever I can get.  Thanks
in advance!

William Lippert
The American University
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 8 Oct 1994 00:51:25 EDT
From:    William Lippert <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: MEDIA: WAIT FOR PURPLE

Ben Frank,
  I read that article too and found it kinda depressing.  By God, if
MacArthur was around he'd know how to fight the drug war!

William Lippert
The American University

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 8 Oct 1994 04:00:12 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 10-08-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
10/08 Sun. Land-based aircraft from the Marianas Islands
           increase tempo of air strikes on Iwo Jima, Volcano
           Islands.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 8 Oct 1994 05:40:08 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: BIO:  Wingate

Hello, Cassady!

I haven't posted anything yet on Wingate, but I will and I will post
it to the list.

More later.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 8 Oct 1994 05:41:40 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Invasion of Crete -- Operation Merkur

Hello, Emery!

I think I can answer that question, but I will have to consult my
records.

More later.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 8 Oct 1994 05:45:11 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Switzerland in WWII

Hello, Jim!

You are correct about the source. That is the only work I have ever
seen on this man. von Werra was also awarded the Knight's Cross,
Germany's highest military decoration. I will see what else I can
find.

More later, Jim, and thanks.

Terry

> If I recall rightly, the only book about Von Werra in
English (Kendal Burt's
> _The One Who Got Away_) says that he was killed in an accident--the engine
> of his Me-109 cut out during a routine patrol over the North  Sea.  Do
> you hve other information.
> Jim Curry
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, 7 Oct 1994, Robert T. Moore wrote:
>
> > Hello, Cassady!
> >
> > Just a comment to your interesting post.
> >
> > > I just read in Doolittle's auto that some (2) "P-38s landed in Portugal.
> > > One took off under a ruse and the other ins interned." (p. 320).
> > > Anyone have any stories about escapes such as this one?
> >
> >     I might add that the pilot of that P-38 that landed in Portugal
> > under a ruse was Captain Jack Ilfrey, who claims to be the first ace
> > in a P-38. He lives in New Braunfels, TX and was a member of the 20th
> > Fighter Group.
> >
> >     Regarding similar escape stories, what about Franz von Werra's
> > escape from a Canadian POW camp, making his way through the US,
> > neutral at the time, into Mexico, where he made contact with the
> > German embassy, boarded ship there, and finally arrived in Germany
> > safe and sound. He was restored to flying status but was later shot
> > down and killed on the Eastern Front.
> >
> >
> >     There are others.
> >
> >     Terry
> >
>

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 8 Oct 1994 08:02:14 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: CARLSON'S & EDSON'S RA

Jim, we would like to have a copy of your thesis in the Marine Corps Historical
Center. You can send it to me and I will have it accessioned into our library.
Cheers, Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 8 Oct 1994 05:06:24 -0700
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 09-OCT-1944

On 09-OCT-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - Units of the Canadian 3rd Division land at Breskens, on the
western arm of the Scheldt. The battle in the streets of Maizieres-les-Metz by
the US 90th Division continues. In the US XII Corps sector, units of the 6th
Armoured Division try unsuccessfuLy to reach Letricourt. The 80th Division is
held alongs the banks of the river Seille. In this sector, the advance now
comes to a standstill for about a month

Greece - Additional British troops land at Corinth.

Pacific - Nimitz issues the initial directives for the invasion of Iwo Jima,
tentatively scheduled for 20-JAN-45. Admiral Raymond Spruance is appointed to
command the operation.

Marcus Island - Cruisers and destroyers commanded by RADM A.E. Smith shell the
Japanese defences on Marcus Island.

The Homefront
-------------
Cardinals Win World Series - The St. Louis Cardinals have won the World Series
by defeating the Browns 3-1.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "Facts On File Yearbook 1944,
Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.netcom.com in directory /pub/jbd and can
be accessed via the WWW by URL: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/jbd/ww2.html. If you
have difficulty accessing the Netcom FTP server, please keep trying because it
stays very busy.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis     [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 8 Oct 1994 08:17:05 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: CHURCHILL'S BAD DE

In a discussion concerning Anzio, a must read is Martin Blumenson's book
entitled, of course, "Anzio." This is a very important account of the battle
and the personalities. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 8 Oct 1994 12:44:18 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: CHURCHILL'S BAD DE

With respect to your question about landing craft and their shortage in the
Mediterranean, Ken, I suspect that since the cross-channel attack was not
immediate, the greater portion of the supply of amtracs and Higgins boats was
being sent to the Pacific where they were needed. And as great as the logistics
supply system was in that period of the war, it still was not up to sending
things here and there easily, or as easy as it was for the Gulf War. Simple
answer, but still my opinion. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 8 Oct 1994 11:55:12 -0500
From:    Drew Halevy <[email-masked]>
Subject: DISC u-boats, a new topic

This is from a new member-

Subject: The Laconia Incident
Date: Sat, 8 Oct 94 01:42:00 EST

Hi all-

On 12 September, 1942, Herr Captain Hartenstein, commanding U-156
torpedoed the British flagged liner- Laconia.  The ship sank almost
immediately.  During the period following the sinking, U-156 began
rescueing passengers (a mix of British and Canadian military dependants,
with more than 1500 Italian prisoners of war) from the water.  Realizing
that they would not have enough room, even on deck, for the number of
people in the water- Captain Hartenstein made a plain language radio
clall for assistance- and offered to cease hostilities for 48 hours for
any ship assisting in the rescue.

Another  U-boat (number I am not sure of) assisted in this rescue.
However- an American ASW patrol bomber spotted the subs on the surface
(decks loaded with survivors) and after seaking guidance from are
commanders- proceeded to attack the vessels.  Both were forced to dive-
(even with people still on deck) and many perished before Allied vessels
arrived on the scene a few hours later.

After this action- Admiral Donitz issued what became known as the
Laconia Order, which forbade German Submarines from participating in the
rescue of victims of U-Boat attacks.

It was this order (which was identical to SOP for American Submarines in
the Pacific- if I am not mistaken) which was used to convict Admiral
Donitz of war crimes at the tribunal in Nuremberg.

Although the 'spoils of war are to the victors,' I cannot but help think
that this indictment was more a response to German success with U-Boats
in the Atlantic, than it was to the actual Laconia Order.

Can anyone recall similar incidents in which American forces were forced
nto the same box? (I imagine Herr Hartenstein's sense of guilt must have
been tremendous- leaving al those folks swimming like he was forced to.)
 Was the Admiral's indictment hypocritical?

Fire away-
         -Rob

Robert S. Randazzo
UAL - MHTOZ
[email-masked]

Drew  Philip Halevy      |      If we are marked to die, we are enow
Department of History    |      To do our country loss; and if to live,
University of Arkansas   |      The fewer the men, the greater
[email-masked]    |      share of honor. -Henry V Act IV Scene III

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 8 Oct 1994 13:03:31 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: CARLSON'S RAIDERS

You are absolutely correct, Henry, in your comment about Carlson. However, he
was an official observer of the Eighth Route Army and their Long March. He
first came into some conflict with his bosses in Shanghai, when they recalled
him--not for any punitive reason--because they felt he had been with Mao's army
long enough. He resisted the recall until he really had to return to Shanghai.
When Phyllis Zimmerman
's biography of Carlson comes out, I feel certain that she will explain all
this. She is the first researcher/historian allowed by Carlson's family to see
his papers, which had been in storage for a long time. The family is still
sensitive about Blankfort's biography which gives Carlson a leftward slant, an
appraisal many senior Marine officers held about him up to his death. I have
been told that when he died and was to be buried in Arlington National
Cemetery, Commandant of the Marine Corps Vandegrift ordered his general
officers at Headquarters Marine Corps to attend the funeral. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 8 Oct 1994 13:16:19 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TACT:COULD THEY HA

Henry, I believe it is safe and valid to say that both WWS I and II were over
the minute the United States entered them, despite all the what if scenarios
which have been posted interminably for the past couple of weeks. There may
have been a few zigs and zags as America prosecuted the war, but I firmly
believe the results of her entry were inevitable. We threw the victory away
when we refused to join the League of Nations. Some say we threw the victory of
WWII away when we demobilized so quickly. Our reaction to the North Korean
invasion of South Korea disproved that, although the final result was not
satisfactory. There are other lessons to be derived from the endings of Vietnam
and the Gulf War, but they don't belong on this board. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 8 Oct 1994 12:26:02 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TACT:COULD THEY HA

Please tell those Americans who died during WWI and WWIIIthat the wars were
ended when we entered.

George Bauer
U.S.A.:  [email-masked]
         [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 8 Oct 1994 12:27:49 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TACT:COULD THEY HA

Some say we threw the victory of WWII away when we didn't allow Patton to
take out the Soviet Union.

George Bauer
U.S.A.:  [email-masked]
         [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 8 Oct 1994 15:00:22 -0230
From:    OLAF <[email-masked]>
Subject: Landing craft (new book)

Louisiana State University Press recently published a book on the
man who headed the American program to build landing craft for the
big amphibious assaults of World War II. I haven't read, so I can't
endorse it, but the book may suggest answers to some of the
questions raised by those folks out there who are engaged at the
moment in the "landing craft" thread. The book is: ANDREW JACKSON
HIGGINS AND THE BOATS THAT WON WORLD WAR II by Jerry E. Strahan
(Baton Rouge: Louisiana State University Press, 1994. xvii + 382
pp., photographs, bibliography, index. $29.95, cloth; ISBN 0-8071-
1903-2).

Olaf Janzen
Department of History
Sir Wilfred Grenfell College
Corner Brook, Newfoundland
A2H 6P9
tel: (709) 637-6282
FAX: (709) 639-8125
e-mail: [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 8 Oct 1994 20:54:18 EDT
From:    William Lippert <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TACT:COULD THEY HA

On Sat, 8 Oct 1994 12:27:49 -0500 GEORGE BAUER said:
>Some say we threw the victory of WWII away when we didn't allow Patton to
>take out the Soviet Union.
>
>George Bauer
>U.S.A.:  [email-masked]
>         [email-masked]

Some might say that, but some would also say that it's hard to beat
unconditional surrender from one's foes.  And some would say that fighting
the Soviet Union would have been bloody, horrible, and maybe not even
a guarenteed victory.  And, in the end, we did win the Cold War.

William Lippert
The American University

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End of WWII-L Digest - 7 Oct 1994 to 8 Oct 1994
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