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Date:     Sun, 2 Oct 1994 00:00:38 -0400
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From: Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject:  WWII-L Digest - 30 Sep 1994 to 1 Oct 1994
To: Recipients of WWII-L digests <WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Status: O

There are 17 messages totalling 684 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. TRIV Re: German-Japanese Tech Transfer
  2. TACT:Could they have won ? (2)
  3. INF: USN Chronology 10-01-94
  4. Italians in WW2 (my $0.02)
  5. WWII-L Digest - 29 Sep 1994 to 30 Sep 1994
  6. "What if" discussions.
  7. Italy in WW2, my $0.02--part II
  8. WEAP:aircraft comparisons
  9. Warsaw Uprising
 10. POL:Hiroshima
 11. INF: More on Aero engines
 12. TACT:Could they have won (2)
 13. [INF] USAAF 1 OCT 44
 14. [INF] USAAF 2 OCT 44
 15. Palau

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Oct 1994 00:01:17 EST
From:    "CARL WERNKE (TCWERNC@VCCSCENT)" <TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET>
Subject: Re: TRIV Re: German-Japanese Tech Transfer

 To: Multiple recipients of list WWII-L(WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU)
 In-Reply-To: note of Fri, 30 Sep 1994 13:49:56 EDT


 Brian Nicklas wrote:
 > The Mitsubishi J8M Shusui was a copy of the Me 163 b. Two subs carried the
 > parts to Japan, one was sunk.... Bob Mikesh published a "Monogram Close_up"
 > on the Kikka that gave a great explanation of how it grew from the Me 262.

 Design work on the Kikka (Orange Blossom)-- the only Japanese jet-powered
 aircraft capable of taking_off on its own power, although only twice during
 the second World War-- began in  September 1944. The reports on the progress
 of the Messerschmitt Me 262 twin-jet fighter received from the Japanese Air
 Attache' in Germany had prompted the Naval Staff to instruct Nakajima to
 design a single-seat twin-jet attack fighter based on the German Me 262.
 Requirements included: (1) maximum speed 375 kt (432 mph); (2) range 110
 naut miles (127 st miles) with a bomb-load of 500kg (1,102 lb) or 150 naut
 miles (173 st miles) with a bomb-load of 250 kg (551 lb); (3) landing speed
 80 kt (92 mph); and (4) take-off run 350 m (1,150 ft) when using two 450 kg
 (992 lb) thrust RATOG bottles. In addition, provisions were to be made for
 folding wings, to enable the aircraft to be hidden in caves and tunnels and
 also for ease of production by semi-skilled labor.

 The aircraft, designed by Kazuo Ohno and Kenichi Matsumura, externally
 resembled the Me 262 but was smaller. The two turbojets were mounted in
 separate nacelles under the wings to allow, with a minimum of changes, the
 installation of engines of various types. At this time,the project had been
 designated Navy Special Attacker Kikka, but its future was still uncertain
 as the Ne-12 failed to deliver sufficient thrust. Fortunately ( for the
 Japanese ) , photographs of the German BMW axial-flow turbojet had been
 obtained by Eichi Iwaya of the Japanese Navy, and from these the Japanese were
 able to design a similar turbojet, designated Ne-20, offering a thrust of
 475 kg (1,047 lb). It appeared that with two Ne-20 turbojets the Kikka would
 meet its design performance and the project rapidly picked up speed.

   Completed in August 1945, the first Kikka made its maiden flight on
 7 August at Kisarazu Naval Air Base with LCDR Susumu Takaoka at the controls.
 A second prototype was almost ready for flight trials and eighteen additional
 prototypes and pre-production aircraft were in various stages of assembly
 when on 15 August, the development of the aircraft was terminated.

 The above material was obtained from _Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War_,
 by Rene'J. Francillon, Putnam & Co., 1979.

 Carl Wernke
 TCWERNC@VCCSCENT.BITNET

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Oct 1994 00:53:19 EDT
From:    William Lippert <WL1958A@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject: Re: TACT:Could they have won ?

   While I will not disagree that the Ardennes offensive was a general
failure for the Germans, I do not think that Hitler made a particularly
poor decision.  In general, leaders (political and military) have often
been criticized for being too timid or indecisive; unwilling to go on
the offensive.  I will cite Bernard Montgomery here as many consider him
a little slow to attack.  Or in the Battle of the Coral Sea, where the
Japanese retreated and allowed the American carriers to escape, damaged
but usable.
   Hitler and the Germans knew that the end would come later if they
stayed on the defensive.  An offensive operation, if successful, would
have had the effect of raising German morale, shaking Allied confidence,
and perhaps permitting a political settlement with the West.  No doubt
that these were very unlikely, but they were better than conceding to
inevitable defeat.

William Lippert
The American University

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Oct 1994 07:14:34 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 10-01-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
10/01 Sun. Office of Deputy Commander in Chief United States
           Fleet and Deputy Chief of Naval Operations (Vice Adm.
           R. S. Edwards) is established.
            United States naval vessel sunk:
             Motor minesweeper YMS-385, by mine, western
              Caroline Islands area,
              09 d. 52'N., 139 d. 37'E.
            United States naval vessel damaged:
             Destroyer FORREST (DD-461), by collision, Southern
              France area,
              43 d. 20'N., 05 d. 20'E.
             Destroyer BAILEY (DD-492), by strafing, Palau
              Islands area, Caroline Islands,
              06 d. 59'N., 134 d. 13'E.
            Japanese naval vessel sunk:
             Coastal minelayer AJIRO, by submarine SNAPPER (SS-
              185), northwest of Bonin Islands,
              28 d. 11'N., 139 d. 30'E.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Oct 1994 09:16:36 -0500
From:    Greg Kelley <gregk@STPAUL.LIB.MN.US>
Subject: Re: Italians in WW2 (my $0.02)

Never though there was anything wrong with the Italians as a military
power other than some VERY severe limitations.  Yes, their contribution
in Spain was impressive, but the books I've read suggest this represented
the bulk of Italian military capacity.  Much as I hesitate to quote
Badoglio due to his "let's rewrite history to save my reputation" style
of memoirs, when your Army's C of S reports only ten divisions at full
strength in 1940, then that does kinda sound like the Italians were
woefully underequipped.

As for German arms shipments to upgrade their forces, I agree this would
have been politcally impossible.  For the Duce, who was inclined to
select tanks and airplanes with a bombastic gesture of "build that one" to
thereby admit Italian shortcomings to someone he saw as a an upstart
copycat (and not necessarily a trusted one at that), well, not bloody likely.

Some recommended titles:

Denis Mack Smith, MUSSOLINI'S ROMAN EMPIRE

MacGregor Knox, MUSSOLINI UNLEASHED, 1939-1941: POLITICS AND STRATEGY IN
FASCIST ITALY'S LAST WAR

John JT Sweet, IRON ARM: THE MECHANIZATION OF MUSSOLINI'S ARMY, 1920-1940


from another fan of anything dealing with a shipment codenamed TANNENBAUM...

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          gregk@stpaul.lib.mn.us

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Oct 1994 10:28:00 EDT
From:    Kendall Miles <T330075@UNIVSCVM.CSD.SCAROLINA.EDU>
Subject: Re: WWII-L Digest - 29 Sep 1994 to 30 Sep 1994

  In reply to Dennis Sparks:

  In Ishoven's Messerschmitt 109 at War, he quotes from the log of
Capitaine Hans Thurmeer who flew in the Swiss Air Force in an
Me 109.  According to Thurmeer, they (his Compagnie d'Aviation)
shot down two He-111's on 1 June 1940.  Then on 4 June, when
Goering was provoked and deliberately send Bf-110 escorted
He-111's over the border, Thurmeer says that 2 Bf 110's were
downed, as well as an He-111, and one Swiss 109 was lost.  Then
on 8 June a Zerstorergruppe was sent over the border, and three
were downed to at least one 109.
  In addition, Ishoven also shows a picture of an He-111
supposedly downed by the Swiss in May 1940.
  Anyway, that's what I've seen about the Swiss i combat with
the Luftwaffe...I guess you can take it or leave it. :)




Kendall Miles                        "Otium sine litteris mors est."
K.Miles@scarolina.edu
Graduate Student-Military History    "Leisure without literature
University of South Carolina                  is death."

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Oct 1994 10:20:11 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <BAUER@VAX1.ROCKHURST.EDU>
Subject: Re: TACT:Could they have won ?

Please spare me the "what if" and "if only" discussions.  They can go on
forever, and require little or none of the scholarship for which this list is
(for the most part)  well known.

George Bauer
U.S.A.:  BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET
         BAUER@VAX1.ROCKHURST.EDU

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Oct 1994 11:43:17 EDT
From:    STeven Vest <SVEST@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU>
Subject: Re: "What if" discussions.

 George Bauer states that he doesn't want to the list to engage in What If
discussions......(I apologize for not being able to quote him directly).

I'm afraid I will have to respectfully disagree here.  I find the What If
discussions interesting and, as long as they don't go on too long and/or
don't go into any of the forbidden areas I can't see where you have a valid
complaint here.  This is NOT strictly a scholarly list.  It is a list which
fortuitously often contains a high level of scholarship.  If something goes
on too long or becomes a problem, then is the time to act.  We've done quite
well here for quite a long time with the few rules we have, well enforced by
our (excellent) listowners.  I see no reason to change that now.

Just one man's opinion.

Best,

    STeven Vest

------------------------------------------------------------------------
STEVEN VEST            *      "TWO BROKEN TIGERS, ON FIRE IN THE NIGHT,
PURDY/KRESGE LIBRARY   *       FLICKER THEIR SOULS TO THE WIND."
WAYNE STATE UNIVERSITY *              AL STEWART "ROAD TO MOSCOW"
SVEST@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU *                    _PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE_
________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Oct 1994 11:53:44 -0500
From:    Greg Kelley <gregk@STPAUL.LIB.MN.US>
Subject: Re: Italy in WW2, my $0.02--part II

Continuing in the vein of Italy's miltary prowess, both real & imagined,
does anyone out there really, honestly & truly consider the MSVN
Blackshirt Legions to be comparable to the Waffen-SS?  The impression I've
gathered would class them closer to armed SA units--more a political
militia that, to be sure, were considered "elites", but more due to
political status & indoctrination rather than anything resembling special
forces training or weapons.  Probably more dedicated or inpsired than
regular troops, which when you're fighting in southern Russia or Eastern
Africa might make quite a difference.

Hey, don't mind me.  I'm still trying to find anyone to agree with my
contention that the Rumanians were good troops.


                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          gregk@stpaul.lib.mn.us

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Oct 1994 17:59:42 EDT
From:    Henry Sirotin <hhs@EVEREST.HUNTER.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP:aircraft comparisons

Re odd fighter groupings, Bf109s and Hawker Hurricanes fighting side
by side for the Rumanians in 1941, if I recall correctly.

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Oct 1994 18:14:38 EDT
From:    Henry Sirotin <hhs@EVEREST.HUNTER.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Warsaw Uprising

Dr. Dziewanowski is probably drawing on Soviet data that has come to light
in the last two years. 500,000 dead in 1945 could be right. The limiting
factor on any Soviet drive in Summer 1944 would have been their logistics
capability, which almost certainly could not have sustained a drive from
western Byelorussia to Berlin in one shot. In addition, the Germans would
have had available the forces eventually committed to the Ardennes              offensive, and they were experts in jury-rigged defenses.

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Oct 1994 18:29:47 EDT
From:    Henry Sirotin <hhs@EVEREST.HUNTER.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: POL:Hiroshima

Hiroshima was the headquarters of the IJA 2 General Army, responsible           for the defense of the southern home islands, including Kyushu, which
was scheduled to be invaded in eleven weeks. The atomic bomb destroyed          the top of this command structure. It was also a significant port,
although this was a minor factor by 1945.

Nagasaki had no military justification I am aware of, beyond it being           an industrial center.

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Oct 1994 16:33:01 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: INF: More on Aero engines

Burt...
        Tou are absolutely right on with your comments about the British
reluctance to produce a rougher-finished Lee-Enfield, preferring to retain
high standards of workmanship, regardless of the needs for mass production.
        Oddly, the British went in entirely the opposite direction when it
came to electronic devices for aircraft. The "Boffins" ( as scientists were
then called ) would come up with an innovative electronic device -- new
form of radar, or detection device, say -- cram it into a cheap sheet metal
container and slap it into the aircraft any-old-way. "Biscuit-boxes", they
called them. The idea being that, when a *better* version was invented, the
engineers could simply rip out the cheap container, and slap the up-grade in
place with the minimum of delay. The Germans' high standards of engineering
rather worked against them, as they insisted on meticulously fitted devices
in their aircraft, which of course took much longer to retrofit.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Oct 1994 23:38:00 UTC
From:    "Edward S. Miller" <e.miller4@GENIE.GEIS.COM>
Subject: TACT:Could they have won

  Re possible German success at the Bulge, a speculative essay is "Ardennes,
1944: Bulge and Fishhook," in Col. Trevor N. Dupuy, =Options of Command=
(NY: Hippocrene Books, 1984). The scenario is that the Germans capture
Batogne and push toward Antwerp.  The "Fishhook" is the shape of the
extended Bulge which reaches the Meuse at the farthest point.  But they
never reach Antwerp.  In the end the defeat is about the same for the same
reason: long exposed flanks vulnerable to Allied attack from north and south.
  BTW the book has ten such WWII essays (8 Europe, 2 Pacific).  Interesting.

  A general view: The most significant decision of WWII was the demand for
unconditional surrender.  Had the western allies adopted a lesser goal,
there were many conceivable ways for Hitler to "win" by a compromise peace.
  Edward S. Miller e.miller4@genie.geis.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Oct 1994 21:43:27 EDT
From:    William Lippert <WL1958A@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject: Re: TACT:Could they have won

On Sat, 1 Oct 1994 23:38:00 UTC Edward S. Miller said:
>
>  A general view: The most significant decision of WWII was the demand for
>unconditional surrender.  Had the western allies adopted a lesser goal,
>there were many conceivable ways for Hitler to "win" by a compromise peace.
>  Edward S. Miller e.miller4@genie.geis.com

      I can't say which was the most significant decision of the war -
some decisions were so large that they can't be properly qualified.  Anyway,
Not only would Hitler have perhaps compromised (which was one reason why he
executed the Ardennes Offensive, to approach the West on more favorable
terms); or the other generals of the Wermacht (and even the German citizens)
would have been more disposed to remove Hitler with the knowledge that the
Allies would be more sympathetic to a non-Hitler government.
      Additionally, the same would go for the Japanese.  The Japanese might
have surrendered if there was a posibility that their Emporer would be able
to stay in power.  But as this was viewed as unlikely, they were forced to
fight to the end.

William Lippert
The American University

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Oct 1994 22:08:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 1 OCT 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
SUNDAY, 1 OCTOBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-6, North American Mustang
  F-7, Consolidated Liberator
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  Mosquito, deHavilland
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 34 P-47s bomb Thetkegyin while 20
others hit railroad targets throughout the N Burma railroad corridor and
troop concentrations at Ponlon; 4 P-47s bomb Shwegugale while 6 others hit
Lungling, China and sweep the Burma Road in the area. The 9th Bombardment
Squadron (Heavy), 7th Bombardment Group (Heavy), moves from Kurimitola to
Pandaveswar, India with B-24s. During Oct 44, the 24th Combat Mapping
Squadron, 8th Photographic Reconnaissance Group, based at Guskhara, India,
sends an element to operate from Hsinching, China with F-7s.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 18 B-25s bomb Tien Ho and White
Cloud Airfields in Canton, the town of Wuchou, and targets of opportunity in
the Samshui and Canton areas; 100+ P-40s and P-51s on armed reconnaissance
throughout areas S of the Yangtze River hit a variety of targets of
opportunity, concentrating on communications targets and troops in the
Mangshih and Hsinganhsien areas.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  AIRBORNE OPERATIONS (IX Troop Carrier Command): In France, HQ 50th Troop
Carrier Wing moves from Exeter, England to Le Mans; the 99th and 301st Troop
Carrier Squadrons, 441st Troop Carrier Group, move from Villeneuve/Vertus to
St Marceau with C-47s.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 657: 9 of 10 B-17s drop
leaflets in France, the Netherlands and Belgium during the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): In France, HQ XXIX Tactical Air
Command (Provisional) locates advance HQ at Arlon; weather prevents bomber
operations; a few fighters fly armed reconnaissance over E France and wide
areas of W Germany and patrol the battle areas; night patrols are flown over
E France and Luxembourg; HQ 36th Fighter Group moves from Athis to
Juvincourt; HQ 371st Fighter Group and the 406th Fighter Squadron move from
Perthes to Dole/Tavaux with P-47s; the 553d Bombardment Squadron (Medium),
386th Bombardment Group (Medium), moves from Great Dunmow, England to
Beaumont-sur-Oise with B-26s; the 573d, 574th and 575th Bombardment Squadrons
(Medium), 391st Bombardment Group (Medium), move from Matching, England to
Roye/Amy with B-26s. In Belgium, HQ 84th Fighter Wing moves from Vermand,
France to Arlon; HQ 404th Fighter Group and the 506th, 507th and 508th
Fighter Squadrons move from Juvincourt, France to St-Trond with P-47s; HQ
474th Fighter Group moves from Peronne, France to Florennes; the 125th
Liaison Squadron, Ninth Air Force (attached to Ninth Army), moves from
Rennes, France to Arlon with L-5s. In Luxembourg, HQ 363d Tactical
Reconnaissance Group moves from Le Mans, France to Luxembourg City.
  In Belgium, during Oct 44, HQ IX Fighter Command moves from Charleroi to
Verviers.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): HQ 5th Photographic
Reconnaissance Group and the 15th, 23d and 32d Photographic Reconnaissance
Squadrons are assigned to HQ Fifteenth AF, completing the full establishment
of 21 heavy bomber groups, 7 fighter groups, and 1 reconnaissance group, as
authorized in the War Department directive of 23 Oct 43.  Weather permits
only photo and weather reconnaissance missions.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, B-25s and B-26s attack
bridges, fuel dumps, factory, and barracks in C and W Po Valley, including 3
attacks on Piacenza while XII Fighter Command's A-20s hit a fuel dump and
bivouacs and fighter-bombers blast guns and communications in the mountainous
battle areas between Florence and Bologna; the 416th Night Fighter Squadron,
62d Fighter Wing, moves from Rosignano to Pisa with Mosquitos.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): B-24s from Saipan Island, Mariana Islands,
strike the airfield on Iwo Jima Island, Volcano Islands. In the Gilbert
Islands, B-25s from Makin Island bomb Nauru Island while B-24s, staging
through Eniwetok Atoll, Marshall Islands, hit Truk Atoll, Caroline Islands.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: On Celebes Island,
B-24s bomb Langoan while B-25s hit Lembeh Island, Menado, and Bolaang-oeki
port. B-24s bomb Taka in the Moluccas Islands while P-38s hit Amahai, Ceram
Island, Kairatoe, Celebes Island, and shipping off Amboina, Ambon Island.
B-25s and P-38s on shipping sweeps off Halmahera Island destroy several
barges and luggers. In New Guinea, A-20s and P-38s attack Urarom Airfield and
Fak Fak supply dumps, while P-40s hit Doom Island and targets of opportunity
in Windissi, Idorra, and MacCluer Gulf; P-47s and A-20s hit Doeroa, Langgoer,
and Faan Airfields; the 63d and 70th Troop Carrier Squadrons, 403d Troop
Carrier Group, move from Los Negros Island, Admiralty Islands and Hollandia
respectively, to Biak Island with C-47s. The 82d Tactical Reconnaissance
Squadron, 71st Tactical Reconnaissance Group, moves from Biak Island, New
Guinea to Morotai Island, Moluccas Islands with P-40s and F-6s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

02/0210Z SEP

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Oct 1994 22:17:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 2 OCT 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
MONDAY, 2 OCTOBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-6, North American Mustang
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): In the Kurile Islands, photo reconnaissance
missions, by 4 B-25s to Paramushiru Island and by 2 B-24s to Onnekotan
Island, abort due to weather.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 49 P-47s pound several towns and
bridges in the Bhamo area and destroy buildings in Shwekyina, Kaungsin,
Maingka, Kyungyi, Singan, and Kabani; 20+ P-47s hit N Burma railroad targets
and troops at Man He and Manla; 7 P-47s bomb Kutkai while 8 sweep the
Lungling, China-Loiwing, Burma area, destroying a warehouse at Selan; 8 B-25s
slightly damage road bridges N of Lashio; 4 others bomb and damage Nambkai
road bridges and their vicinity; troop carrier aircraft fly 260+ sorties,
delivering men and supplies to various points in the CBI. The detachments of
the 1st and 3d Combat Cargo Squadrons, 1st Combat Cargo Group, operating from
Yunnani, China with C-47s return to base at Sylhet, India.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 11 B-25s attack the town of Pingnam
while 16 bomb Tien Ho and White Cloud Airfields in Canton and the town of
Samshui; 70+ P-40s and P-51s on armed reconnaissance over S China attack
various targets of opportunity, chiefly river traffic and troop areas around
Chuanhsien, Taochuan, Takbing, Wuchou, Dosing, and the Wenchow peninsula, and
attack shipping in the Campba Port-Hongay area of French Indochina.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  AIRBORNE OPERATIONS (IX Troop Carrier Command): In France, HQ 441st Troop
Carrier Group and the 100th and 302d Troop Carrier Squadrons move from
Villeneuve/Vetrus to St Marceau with C-47s.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 4 missions are flown:
  Mission 658: 887 B-17s and 549 fighters are dispatched to make PFF attacks
on industrial targets at Cologne and Kassel, Germany; 2 B-17s are lost:
  1. 305 B-17s are dispatched to hit the Bettenhausen ordnance depot at
Kassel (129); targets of opportunity are Kassel (143), Fritzlar Airfield (12)
and other (1); 1 B-17 is damaged beyond repair and 89 damaged; 5 airmen are
WIA. Escort is provided by 228 P-47s and P-51s without loss.
  2. 458 B-17s are dispatched to hit the Henschel motor vehicle plant at
Kassel (384); targets of opportunity are Wiesbaden (31), Gesecke (9) and
other (17); 2 B-17s are lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 144 damaged; 16
airmen are KIA, 1 WIA and 20 MIA. Escort is provided by 219 P-47s and P-51s
without loss.
  3. 110 of 124 B-17s hit the Ford motor vehicle plant at Cologne; 1 B-17 is
damaged beyond repair and 36 damaged. Escort is provided by 53 P-47s and
P-51s without loss.
  Mission 659: 308 B-24s are dispatched to make a PFF attack on the
marshalling yard at Hamm (266); targets of opportunity are Handorf Airfield
(29) and Munster (1); 2 B-24s are lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 144
damaged; 1 airman is KIA and 18 MIA. Escort is provided by 212 P-38s, P-47s
and P-51s; 1 P-51 is lost (pilot MIA), 2 damaged beyond repair and 1 damaged;
1 pilot is KIA.
  Mission 660: 2 B-17s, escorted by 15 P-51s, drop leaflets on Dutch islands
during the day.
  Mission 661: 5 B-24s and 3 B-17s drop leaflets in the Netherlands, France
and Germany during the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force):  HQ XXIX Tactical Air Command
(Provisional) goes into operation along with the US Ninth Army (this new
Tactical Air Command is formed from elements of the IX and XIX Tactical Air
Commands); in Germany, the 9th Bombardment Division strikes the industrial
area of Ubach and defended positions at Herbach; fighters fly armed
reconnaissance (and later night patrol) over Belgium, E France, and W Germany
and support the US First, Third, and Seventh Armies in E France and W
Germany. In Belgium, HQ IX Tactical Air Command moves advanced HQ from
Janoulx to to Verviers maintaining the close association with the US First
Army; HQ 368th Fighter Group and the 395th, 396th and 397th Fighter Squadrons
move from Laon, France to Chievres with P-47s; the 428th, 429th and 430th
Fighter Squadrons, 474th Fighter Group, move from Peronne, France to
Florennes. In France, HQ 386th Bombardment Group (Medium) and the 552d, 554th
and 555th Bombardment Squadrons (Medium) move from Great Dunmow, England to
Beaumont-sur-Oise with B-26s. In Luxembourg, the 161st Tactical
Reconnaissance Squadron, 363d Tactical Reconnaissance Group, moves from
Montrevil, France to Sandwieler with F-6s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Unfavorable weather again
cancels bombing missions and limits operations to weather reconnaissance. The
885th Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), Fifteenth AF (attached to Mediterranean
Allied Air Forces), begins a movement from Maison Blanche, Algeria to
Brindisi, Italy with B-24s (the squadron transports supplies to partisans and
drops leaflets in the MTO).

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, weather grounds medium
bombers and restricts fighters to reconnaissance and patrols; during the
night of 1/2 Oct A-20s bomb targets of opportunity in the Po Valley; HQ 27th
Fighter Group and the 522d, 523d and 524th Fighter Squadrons move from
Loyettes, France to Tarquinia with P-47s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): Saipan Island-based B-24s hit Marcus Island in
the North Pacific and shipping W of Chichi Jima Island, Bonin Islands.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: B-25s pound Laha
Airfield on Ambon Island while B-24s hit Haroekoe Island; P-38s cover the
Laha raid, attack shipping in Seri and Amboina Bays and hit Amahai on Ceram
Island and Kairatoe Airfield on Celebes Island. Off Halmahera Island B-25s
fly a barge sweep, bomb Laboehan, and attack the coastal villages on Weda and
Boeli Bays. In New Guinea, P-40s attack vessels off Tamoelol village and
Misool Island and bomb Otawiri and Ransiki Airfields; the 64th Troop Carrier
Squadron, 403d Troop Carrier Group, based on Biak Island begins operating
from Wakde Island with C-47s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

02/0419Z OCT

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Oct 1994 23:37:00 UTC
From:    "Edward S. Miller" <e.miller4@GENIE.GEIS.COM>
Subject: Palau

Jack McKillop wrote:

  > Self-rule  existed on Palau until 1885 when Spain claimed it; it  was
  > sold to Germany in 1889...

The Palaus, as part of the Caroline Islands, were considered nominally
Spanish and in theory were administered from Manila from about the mid-
1500s.  (It was in the half of the globe awarded by the Pope when he divided
the world between Spain and Portugal, Treaty of Tordesillas I think).  Spain
didn't maintain a presence until 1885 when Germany's claim to the adjacent
Marshall Group threatened an encroachment.  During the Spanish-American War
the US gave some thought to taking the Carolines by diverting a warship from
one of the troop convoys en route to help Dewey at Manila after the naval
battle there. But the war ended too soon. As the islands were not occupied
by the US, they were not ceded by Spain at the Treaty of Paris. Germany
bought the islands from Spain a few days after the treaty, at the end of
1898 (not 1889).
  Ed Miller  e.miller4@genie.geis.com

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 30 Sep 1994 to 1 Oct 1994
************************************************

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Status: O

There are 13 messages totalling 467 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. P-61 (2)
  2. Hiroshima
  3. INF: 50 Years Ago - 02-OCT-1944
  4. INF: 50 Years Ago - 03-OCT-1944
  5. [TRIV] Re: odd WWII air encounters
  6. TAC: ?'Could still loose the war?
  7. Odd Encounters
  8. 79th INF Division History (2)
  9. [INF] USAAF 3 OCT 44
 10. Operation TRUCKIN'
 11. [TRIV] RE: ODD WWI

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Oct 1994 01:36:38 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: P-61

    The P-61 was used successfully in both Europe and the Pacific in the
    night intruder role, with a bomb load of 4,000 lb.

    They did not survive the war very long.  Replaced initially by the P-82
    Twin Mustang, and then the F-94 Starfire.

    One interesting sidelight.  The last Curtiss aircraft proposed for the
    AAF was a jet engined night fighter to replace the P-61.  The Nighthawk
    mounted a flexible turret of 4 20mm guns in the nose.  Imagine the
    impact of firing them some 30 deg from the line of flight, especially
    if flying low & slow chasing something like a PO-2 in Korea.

    Steve New

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Oct 1994 02:06:38 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Hiroshima

    I might be way off base here, but my memory of reading on the A-bomb
    targeting selection was that the targets had to be cities that had not
    suffered from previous allied bombing attacks, so that follow up
    analysis of the weapon's effects would be easier to accomplish.

    Steve New

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Oct 1994 13:32:37 -0700
From:    John Davis <jbd@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 02-OCT-1944

On 02-OCT-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The US 30th Division (XIX Corps, 1st Army) opens an offensive
on the West Wall (the Siegfried Line) between Aachen and Geilenkirchen,
northwest of Aachen.

Eastern Front - General Tadeo Bor, leader of the AK forces in Warsaw, signs
the surrender of his forces to the Germans. Warsaw is a pile of rubble and
more than 250,000 Polish patriots have lost their lives in this gallant, but
ill-fated venture. What is left of Warsaw will be further razed to the ground
at Hitler's orders.

Italian Front - The US II and IV Corps (5th Army) are being held up at Monte
Catarelto and Monte Galletto.

Peleliu - The 321st Infantry eliminates Japanese resistance on Mount Amiangal.
In the Mount Umurbrogol sector, the 7th Marines are still being held up by the
Japanese forces, determined to resist to the very last man.

Angaur - The 322nd Infantry breaks off their attack in the northwest of the
island. They begin the systematic shelling of the area.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "Facts On File Yearbook 1944,
Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  jbd@netcom.com
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Oct 1994 13:32:51 -0700
From:    John Davis <jbd@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 03-OCT-1944

On 03-OCT-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The US 3rd Division penetrates into the Seigfried Line and
reaches Ubach, where it is overtaken by the 2nd Armoured Division, which has
crossed the Wurm at Marienberg. In the XX Corps sector, the offensive against
Mertz is resumed. Early in the afternoon, 247 bombers of RAF Bomber Command
attack the Westkapelle dyke on the island of Walcheren. The mission is a
complete success. Over a hundred yards of the dyke is destroyed and the sea
floods thousands of acres of land.

Eastern Front - Troops of the Leningrad Front land on the island of Hiiumaa
and attack the German garrison. The three Baltic Fronts continue their
offensive against the German Army Group North, which is being slowly driven
back towards Riga.

Peleliu - The 7th Marines make some progress against the Japanese positions on
the east side of Mount Umurbrogol.

The Homefront
-------------
Wasps To Disband - Gen. H.H. Arnold, Army Air Forces chief, has announced in
Washington that the Women's Air Force Service Pilots will be deactivated Dec.
20 unless there is a sudden rise in air combat losses in Germany.

Jackie Cooper Acquited - A juvenile court referee in South Bend, Ind. Has
acquited former movie actor Jackie Cooper and two others of contributing to
the delinquency of two South Bend girls.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "Facts On File Yearbook 1944,
Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  jbd@netcom.com
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 00:19:22 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVS2.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: [TRIV] Re: odd WWII air encounters

On Fri, 30 Sep 1994, Emmanuel Gustin wrote:

> > Next,  just how did the Japanese come up with the Kikka design?
> > German Design plans or did they get a 262 for study?
> > They also had something like the Me 163 Komet.  Pictures look too close
> > to the Nazi Komet to be anything but a direct copy.

Mitsubishi negotiated with Messerschmitt in 1943-1944 to get a
manufacturing license. The Germans agreed to sent them a Me 163 in parts,
construction drawings, and related materials. The submarine carrying the
Me 163 and the plans was sunk, and all that reached Japan was the Walter
509 rocket engine and an instruction manual. The Japanese then
reverse-engineered their J8M.

The Kikka was based on the Me 262 in its general outline, as it was known
by reports from Germany. But it was an entirely new design. Just look at a
photograph: the configuration is the same, all the rest is different. The
Ne-20 engines were based on the BMW 003 turbojet.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 00:39:22 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVS2.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: P-61

On Fri, 30 Sep 1994, Drew Halevy wrote:

> did the P-80A have any kills in Italy?-Drew

No, no combat at all.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 00:44:34 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVS2.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: TAC: ?'Could still loose the war?

On Fri, 30 Sep 1994, Robert T. Moore wrote:

> > operating in American uniforms behind the lines, he locked himself up in
> > Versailles (!) for eight days, and that Bradley did the same in Luxemburg.

>     That is absolutely not true. In fact, Ike's staff tried to keep
> him confined, if you will, but Ike would not hear of it. As for
> Bradley, there is no evidence to support this. Security may have been
> tightened, but his movements were not restricted.

Thanks. The BBC is transmitting a series on personalities of this century
(titled 'Reputations') and this one was a largely (but not exclusively)
British view on the controversy between Eisenhower and Montgomery.
Hence...

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 00:47:11 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVS2.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: Odd Encounters

On Fri, 30 Sep 1994, Cassady Craft wrote:

> Encounters with the 109 in the Pacific "occured" even be for the Hein Ki61
> was operational.  I believe most authors attribute this to Allied airmen's
> subconscious refusal to believe that the Japanese zero could be _so_ good.

Yes, that can also be the case. US commanders in the Pacific were so
convinced that the Japanese were using German and Italian aircraft, that
they alloted recognition names for a number of them. That for the Bf 109
was 'Mike'.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Oct 1994 20:23:28 -0400
From:    Andrew Herd <aa475@SEORF.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: 79th INF Division History

I come from a small English village called Haydock, Nr Liverpool. During
WW  II the village became home to the 79th Us Infantry.

Prior to Normandy many long term friendships were made. Recently a relative
of  mine requested information on this unit because no one seemed to have
heard  anything about them since.

I would be much obliged to anyone who knows their history or reference
sources.

A.J. Herd

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Oct 1994 20:23:09 EDT
From:    "SGM Robert S. Rush" <rushr@MEADE-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Re: 79th INF Division History

Re:  79th Division
Quite possibly the reason you haven't heard of the 79th in later years is
for the reason that it was one of the divisions deactivated after the war.
But not forgotten.  The 79th ARCOM (Army Reserve Command) draws it lineage
from the 79th Division.  It is headquartered in Willow Grove Pennsylvania.
Hope this helps.

Rob Rush

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Oct 1994 21:10:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 3 OCT 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
TUESDAY, 3 OCTOBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  L-1, Stinson Vigilant
  L-4, Piper Cub/Grasshopper
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): In the Kurile Islands, 2 B-24s flying offshore
reconnaissance over Onnekotan, Harumukotan, and Shasukotan Islands also
strafe several small vessels.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): Troop carriers fly 240+ sorties, delivering
men and supplies to various points in the CBI. In Burma, the 5th Liaison
Squadron, Tenth Air Force [attached to 1st Liaison Group (Provisional)],
moves from Shaduzup to Myitkyina with L-1s and L-5s.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 23 B-25s attack Pingnam, trucks and
rivercraft in the Wuchou, Samshui, and Canton areas, and bomb Tien Ho and
White Cloud Airfields in Canton; 100 P-51s and P-40s continue armed
reconnaissance over wide expanses of China S of the Yangtze River, attacking
rivercraft, road traffic, troops, town areas, and other targets of
opportunity; the Hsinganhsien, Pingnam, and Chuanhsien areas are covered
exceptionally well.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 2 missions are flown:
  Mission 662: 1,065 bombers and 753 fighters make PFF and visual attacks
against airfields and industrial targets in Germany; 3 bombers and 4 fighters
are lost:
  1. 380 B-17s are dispatched to hit Giebelstadt Airfield (49); targets of
opportunity are Nurnberg (256), Ludwigshafen (13), Ulm (11) and others (24);
130 B-17s are damaged; 2 airmen are WIA. Escort is provided by 260 P-47s and
P-51s; they claim 2-0-0 aircraft on the ground; 4 P-51s are lost (pilots MIA)
and 1 is damaged beyond repair.
  2. 228 B-17s are dispatched to hit motor a vehicle factory at Nurnberg (198);
10 others hit Ottingen Airfield; 3 B-17s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair
and 63 damaged; 2 airmen are KIA, 4 WIA and 28 MIA. Escort is provided by 227
P-47s and P-51s; 1 P-51 is damaged beyond repair.
  3. 119 B-17s are dispatched to hit the oil refinery at Wesseling (87);
targets of opportunity are Cologne (26) and 1 other; 1 B-17 is damaged beyond
repair and 51 damaged. Escort is provided by 24 of 24 P-47s.
  4. 338 B-24s are dispatched to hit Gaggenau (139) and Lachen/Speyerdorf
(111) visually; secondary targets hit are Offenburg marshalling yard (19) and
Pforzheim Airfield (19); targets of opportunity are Speyer Airfield (30) and
Lachen (2); 1 B-24 is damaged beyond repair and 38 damaged; 2 airmen are WIA.
Escort is provided by 188 P-38s and P-47s.
  Mission 663: 6 B-24s and 4 B-17s drop leaflets in France, Germany, the
Netherlands and Belgium during the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 220+ B-26s and A-20s sent to bomb
targets at Durena and Aldenhoven, Germany, and Arnhem, the Netherlands are
recalled because of weather; fighters fly armed reconnaissance over W
Germany, hit railroads W of the Rhine River, and support the US Third Army in
the Metz, France area. The IX Air Defense Command continues night patrols. In
Belgium, HQ 70th Fighter Wing moves from Marchais, France to Liege; HQ 303d
Fighter Wing moves from Vermand, France to Arlon. In France, HQ 98th Combat
Bombardment Wing (Medium) moves from Chartres to Laon/Athies; the 23d Fighter
Squadron, 36th Fighter Group, moves from Athis to Juvincourt with P-47s; and
the 405th Fighter Squadron, 371st Fighter Group, moves from Perthes to
Dole/Tavaux with P-47s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  AAF, MTO: "A" Flight of the 121st Liaison Squadron, AAF, MTO, moves from
Lyons to Vittel, France with L-4s and L-5s (squadron is based at Pomigliano,
Italy).

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): For the eighth consecutive day
bad weather prevents bombing operations.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium bombers continue
to pound road and rail bridges and fuel dumps in the Po Valley; A-20s,
fighter-bombers, and fighters of the XII Fighter Command hit fuel dumps, rail
lines, and transportation in the Valley and support US Fifth Army forces in
the battle areas in the N Apennines S and SW of Bologna and N of the Arno
River Valley; the 4th Troop Carrier Squadron, 62d Troop Carrier Group, moves
from Galera Airfield to Malignano Airfield with C-47s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): B-24s from Saipan Island hit shipping in the
Bonin Islands while P-47s pound gun positions, buildings, and a wharf on
Pagan Island, Mariana Islands. B-24s on special reconnaissance missions bomb
the airfield on Iwo Jima Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: For the second time
B-24s bomb oil refineries in the Balikpapan, Borneo area, B-25s hit shipping
and bomb Sanana on Sanana Island, Moluccas Islands; on Halmahera Island,
B-25s smash Kaoe runway and bomb Galela; B-25s and B-24s over Ceram Island-
Ambon Island hit barge and coastal targets of opportunity and pound Taka
Airfield in the Moluccas Islands, while fighter-bombers attack Halong
seaplane base on Celebes Island and Namlea Airfield on Buru Island and
Haroekoe Airfields on Haroekoe Island. On the Vogelkop Peninsula in New
Guinea, fighter-bombers again hit Fak Fak and Otawiri.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

03/0112Z OCT

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Oct 1994 21:33:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Operation TRUCKIN'

 >Jack-
 >Do you know how the B-24's transported fuel?  Did they have some kind of
 >special bomb-bay fuel tanks and pump the fuel into tank trucks on the
 >receiving end?  Or did they just have to load up with 55-gallon drums?
 >Actually, I guess I have the same question for any plane in WW II carrying
 >fuel.
 >Thanks again for posting the daily chronolog and answering off the wall
 >questions from people like me.
 >Tim J.  Watts
 >Valparaiso University

Tim is referring to Operation TRUCKIN', i.e., Eighth Air Force
B-24s flying fuel from England to France.  Here is some background
and the answers to Tim's questions.

The rapid Allied advance across France in August and September,
1944 taxed the Allies supply facilities to the limit.  Most people
have heard of the Red Ball Express but the Eighth Air Force also
was involved in this supply effort.

The C-47s of the Eighth and Ninth Air Forces were overtaxed in
trying to deliver supplies to the rapidly advancing Allies so the
Eighth Air Force supplied Consolidated B-24 Liberators to the
effort in Aug 44.  The B-24s of the 492d Bombardment Group (Heavy),
normally involved in CARPETBAGGER missions, and 200 B-24s of the 2d
Bombardment Division were diverted to transport duties.  The B-24s
of the 20th Combat Bombardment Wing (Heavy) were relieved of
bombing operations effective 28 Aug and starting on the 29th, began
delivering food and medical supplies from staging bases in England
to Orleans/Bricy, about 70 miles (113 km) S of Paris, these
missions continued until 9 Sep.  On 12 Sep, the 96th Combat
Bombardment Wing (Heavy) began hauling supplies and on 17 Sep, the
2d Combat Bombardment Wing (Heavy) joined the effort.  Starting on
20 Sep, the 96th spent 11 days hauling fuel, flying 2,117,310 US
gallons (8,014,042 liters) into France.  The B-24s flew between
Horsham St Faith, Rackheath and Attlebridge, England and fuel dumps
to provide 80 octane gasoline to Chartres, St Dizier and Floreenes,
France.  Initially, 5 US gallon (18.9 l) jerrycans were loaded into
the B-24s through the waist windows from which the gun mounts had
been removed.  Later, pumping equipment was available at some
French airfields and the gasoline could be carried in bomb bay
tanks and fighter plane drop tanks stacked in the fuselage.

On these missions, the B-24s had a 5-man crew, two pilots, navigator,
flight engineer and radio-operator; 2 passengers could also be
carried.  A total of 2,248 TRUCKIN' sorties were flown to take
9,880 tons of materials to the troops in France.  These missions
could be dangerous.  On 13 Sep, a 492d Group B-24 crashed on takeoff
from England and the crew was lost; on the final day of operations, a
B-24 was hit by ground fire and again all men were lost.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Oct 1994 23:42:07 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: Re: [TRIV] RE: ODD WWI

I am glad the matter of the ME came up again, because I remembered that I had
written something about it in "Victory and Occupation," vol V, "U.S. Marine
Corps Operations in World War II." In a note on p. 227, I wrote: "While
intercepting an enemy flight in the early evening twilight of 24 May [1945], a
VMF-312 pilot reported sighting and downing a Tony. Interestingly enough, the
Marine flyer reported that the Japanese plane was dark gray and had a black
cross painted on the underside of each wing, very much like Maltese Cross
markings on German military aircraft. This was taken from the VMF=312 war diary
for Mar45. I noted that "Although the configuration of the Tony and the
Messerschmitt
-109 were similar, a search of available records do not indicate of either
German pilots or planes in the Pacific, nor is any reason given for a Japanese
plane to be painted in this fashion." Ben Frank

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 1 Oct 1994 to 2 Oct 1994
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 63 messages totalling 1952 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. TACT:Could they have
  2. Seebees and SAS
  3. battle of Leyte -Reply
  4. BULL: was TACT:Could they have... (2)
  5. INF: 50 Years Ago - 04-OCT-1944
  6. 79th INF Division History (3)
  7. P-61 (2)
  8. TAC: ?'Could still loose the war?
  9. WEAP: F-82 (7)
 10. Egypt (3)
 11. TACT:COULD THEY HA
 12. TAC: ?'COULD STILL
 13. SPEC or BULL
 14. Italy in WW2, my $0.02--part II (4)
 15. WEAP:aircraft comparisons (2)
 16. WEAP: F-82 -Reply
 17. mea culpa
 18. ADMIN: What-Ifs (2)
 19. [INF] USAAF 2 OCT 44 (2)
 20. Invasion of Crete -- Operation Merkur (2)
 21. TACT:Could they have won ? (2)
 22. German Military Vehicles
 23. Switzerland in WWII (2)
 24. WEAP: Eric Brown
 25. American Air Museum
 26. ADMIN: Introduction to WWII-L
 27. POL:Hiroshima (2)
 28. Hungarians and Rumanians on the Eastern Front (2)
 29. WEAPON: Amphibious Landings and Tanks
 30. INF: U.S. plants in enemy countries
 31. Operation Truckin' (2)
 32. Lt. Greenwood-Red Ball Express Company B. Supply Battalion????
 33. The Italians (2)
 34. Italy in WW2, my $0.02--part III (2)
 35. [INF] USAAF 4 OCT 44
 36. TACT:Battle of the Bulge (was Re: TACT:Could they have won ?
 37. 12th ss panzer division germany

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 02:31:00 UTC
From:    "Edward S. Miller" <e.miller4@GENIE.GEIS.COM>
Subject: Re: TACT:Could they have

George Bauer writes:

  > Please spare me the "what if" and "if only" discussions.

  WWII was fifty years ago.  The history has long been known.  The memoirs
are written.  Few facts remain undisclosed.  "What ifs" stimulate us to
assess those facts in a challenging way.  This board would be dry indeed if
members did not speculate.
  Furthermore, many straightforward subjects appear to be of interest
because of implied "might have beens", e.g., Czech army, early jet planes,
Plan Yellow.

Edward S. Miller  e.miller4@genie.geis

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Oct 1994 22:36:13 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Seebees and SAS

Terry...
        You say, "The SAS still exists as far as I know".
!!!
Surely you jest.
        The Special Air Service (22) Regiment not only "still exists",
it is probably the most highly-trained unit in the British Army.
        Though it's official policy is to keep a low profile, the SAS
is frequently mentioned in the international media. The regiment'smain
role these days is in counter-terrorism, but it is a regular army unit,
and served with distinction in the Gulf War and the Falklands War.
        Regards -- Sidney Allinson.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Oct 1994 00:57:46 -0400
From:    jmeierho@MAIL.NYSED.GOV
Subject: Re: battle of Leyte -Reply

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Wed, 21 Sep 94 11:15:58 EDT

If I remember correctly, the destroyer Johnston went in first and fired its
torpedoes.  Received 3 14" hits and pulled back.  When a destroyer attack was
ordered the destroyers Hoel, Heerman, and Johnston (no torpedoes but to
provide fire support) and destroyer escort Samuel B. Roberts answered the
call.
Johnston was sunk, its commEvans was posthumously awarded the MOH, Hoel
was sunk, and Samuel B. Roberts sunk.  Heerman was severely damaged. I
believe one of the gunners mates on Roberts, Carr, was awarded the Navy
Cross (post) for attempting to hand ram the 7th round into a 5" whose hydrolic
evacuator was damaged, when it exploded killing him and many of the gun
crew.

As stated, truly heroic.  Tbove was gleaned from the Navy's ships historys.

Hope this helps.
Rob Rush

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

A recent book by Thomas J. Cutler covers these events in detail, some 28
pages of text.  It is published by Harper Collins and is entitlted _The Battle of
Leyte Gulf, 23-26 October 1944.

John Meierhoffer                jmeierho@mail.nysed.gov
Albany New York         518 486 2390 (work)   283 4761 (home)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 07:48:54 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: BULL: was TACT:Could they have...

Please note the subject heading,... as someone has already suggested,
it would identify the factual/questions from the what-ifs.

BULL does seem degrading, and no one likes that... so how about SPEC: for
Speculation, so others will know whether or not to comit system resources
to it. If a subj heading already exists for SPEC (Special, for instance),
then how about 2AM as a next best... or TIME_FOR_COFFEE... or WHERES_LOU ;-)

-Al

.signature not found! Reformat hard drive? [Yn]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 04:59:32 -0700
From:    John Davis <jbd@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 04-OCT-1944

On 04-OCT-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The Canadian 2nd Division liberates the Merxerem-Eeckeren
sector, north of Antwerp. The German 6th Armoured Division launches a
counter-attack north of Aachen, where the US XIX Corps has breached the
Seigfried Line; they are repulsed by the Americans however.

Eastern Front - In the Negotin area, in Yugoslavia, the Russian 57th Army
routs the German Serbia Group. The Russian 46th Army captures Pancevo near
Belgrade.

Peleliu - The 7th Marines continue to attack the Japanese positions on
Mount Umurbrogol, in torrential rains. As the day ends the Marines have
suffered such heavy losses that they are ordered to be immediately
relieved.

Burma - In the British XXXIII Corps sector, the 5th East African Division
captures Yazagyo.

The Homefront
-------------
Alfred E. Smith Dies - Alfred E. Smith, 70, Governor of New York for four
terms and presidential candidate of the Democratic Party in 1928, has died
in New York from heart failure.

Flying Accidents - The War Department has disclosed that 11,000 members of
the Army Air Forces have been killed in 5,600 fatal air accidents in the
continental US since Pearl Harbor.

Medical Care Program Proposed - The American Public Health Asociation,
meeting in New York, has adopted the outline of a program for medical care
designed "to make available to the entire population all essential
preventive and diagnostic medical services." The program proposes a
national plan to provide all types of medical aid for all parts of the
country. They state that "these services should be adequately and securely
financed through social insurance supplemented by general taxation."

World Series - The St. Louis Browns have won the first game of the series
by defeating the St. Louis Cardinals 2-1.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "Facts On File Yearbook 1944,
Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  jbd@netcom.com
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 07:37:20 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: 79th INF Division History

Hello, A.J.!

I posted a history and organization of this unit to Mr. Emery Ford. I
had asked if anyone on the list would like to see this and Mr. Ford
was the only one to respond. Thus, I sent it as a private post.

You can find a history of this unit in Shelby Stanton's "The Order of
Battle of the U.S. Army in World War II".

Hope this helps.

Terry



> I would be much obliged to anyone who knows their history or reference
> sources.
>
> A.J. Herd
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 07:38:37 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: P-61

Hello, Cassady!

This aircraft officially left USAAF service in 1945. However there
were versions of this aircraft used in the Korean War.

Terry
> Thanks Emmanuel.  I have one more question.  It seems that the P-61 was an
> excellent a/c for its role, but I haven't heard if it remained in service
> after the war.  When did it leave service in the USAAF/USAF?  Did it operate
> as an intruder also, i.e. bomb load.  I seem to remember from glancing
> through Angelucci that it did.  Thanks--oh yeah, what took its place?
>
> Cassady Craft
> Department of Political Science
> University of Georgia
> e-mail CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
> or
> CCRAFT@LANL.GOV
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 08:45:30 -0400
From:    Emery Ford <eford@DELPHI.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: 79th INF Division History

Hello all,

On Mon, 03 Oct 94, Terry Moore wrote:

>I posted a history and organization of this unit to Mr. Emery Ford. I
>had asked if anyone on the list would like to see this and Mr. Ford
>was the only one to respond. Thus, I sent it as a private post.
>
>You can find a history of this unit in Shelby Stanton's "The Order of
>Battle of the U.S. Army in World War II".

>> I would be much obliged to anyone who knows their history or reference
>> sources.
>>
>> A.J. Herd

I would be glad to forward all the info Terry has sent me to anyone
interested.  It would be no problem at all. It's good stuff.

Thanks again, Terry!

Emery

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 07:46:06 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: TAC: ?'Could still loose the war?

Hello, Emmanuel!

Thanks for the note and hope you are well.

> Thanks. The BBC is transmitting a series on personalities of this century
> (titled 'Reputations') and this one was a largely (but not exclusively)
> British view on the controversy between Eisenhower and Montgomery.
> Hence...

    You are very welcome. You might read or consult the book "My
Three Years with Eisenhower" by Ike's naval aide. I can't think of
his name at this time. He goes into detail on this.

    Thanks again, Emmanuel.

    Terry

 > Emmanuel Gustin
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 14:44:46 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVSDS.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: P-61

On Fri, 30 Sep 1994, Cassady Craft wrote:

> after the war.  When did it leave service in the USAAF/USAF?  Did it operate
> as an intruder also, i.e. bomb load.  I seem to remember from glancing
> through Angelucci that it did.  Thanks--oh yeah, what took its place?

Yes, the P-61 operated as an intruder. Luftwaffe activity was rapidly
diminishing, so this was logical. I don't know for other units, but the
422nd squadron was transferred from IX Air Defence Command to IX Tactical
Air Command on 7 October 1944. The earlier P-61s had two wing pylons; from
the P-61B-10 onwards they had four, each for 726kg.

The 422nd got its first four-pylon P-61 in March 1945. Apart from downing
43 enemy aircraft, the 422nd dropped 147 tons of bombs; but the unit
continued to fly the A-20 alongside the P-61, and most of the bombs were
dropped by A-20s. (The 422nd flew 1576 sorties.) Night intruder missions
usually sought targets of opportunity, but at times special targets were
determined for the P-61s. After the Battle of the Bulge, the 422nd was
awarded a Distinguished Unit Citation for its support, mainly to the 101th
Airborne.

After WWII, the P-61 was rapidly considered obsolete. Replacement by the
F-82 'Twin Mustang' (The F, G and H models were nighfighters) began in
September 1948. The last P-61s in service were the P-61Cs of 68th and
339th NFS, of the 347th FG, in the Pacific; these were retired in 1950.
The career of the P-61 in Europe ended earlier; the 422nd squadron was
disbanded on 30 September 1945. The F-82 itself was considered an interim
type, and replaced as soon as possible (meaning: after much delay) by the
F-89 Scorpion and F-94 (another interim type) jet nighfighters.

I should add that apart from the 422nd and 425th squadron in West Europe,
the 414th operated the P-61 with the 12th AF in Italy. 415, 416 and 417
were also created under the 12th AF, but too late for combat.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 08:53:02 EST
From:    coon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU
Subject: WEAP: F-82

        Will someone be so kind as to refresh my memory?  Did the F-82
make into combat or at least service in WW 2?
TIA,
*****************************************************
Brad Coon                     Windows: the operating
COON@IPFWCVAX.BITNET          system for people who
COON@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU    think even a Macintosh
                              is too fast.

Remember, only YOU can prevent political correctness!
******************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 10:37:55 -0400
From:    "Mr. Scott Hannon" <hannon@UMBC.EDU>
Subject: Re: 79th INF Division History

You may be able to abtain a copy of the divisional history, "The
Cross of Lorraine", from Battery Press for around $55. They still
had a few copies a couple months ago.

The division landed in Normandy around a week after D-Day. They
then took part in the lib of Cherbourg penninsula. Then the drive
across France (with XX Corps?). By October '44, they were adjacent
to the US 7th Army area in Lorraine/Alsace. They helped create the
hole in the German lines that allowed the French 2nd Arm Div to
break thru and make their dash to Strasbourg in Nov. By late 1944 the
79ID was located in the corner where the Rhine and Lauter rivers meet
along the German/French border. They defended northern Alsace thru
Jan '45 against the German "Nordwind" offensive. In March, they took
part in the drive into Germany and ended the war in southern Germany.

Other books that might be of interest:

"[US Army] WW2 Order of Battle" by Shelby Stanton. A brief history
of every US Army non-air-corps formation in existance in WW2. The
history seems to come mainly from the "Chronology" volume in the
US Army in WW2 green series (or they used the same sources).

"When the Odds Were Even" the Vosges campaign Oct '44 - Jan '45, by
Keith Bronn. A recent book from Presideo Press, maybe $25. Nice.

"Operation Nordwind" by Charles Whiting. Popular history type of
book, but covers the main fighting OK. A few years old...out of print?

"From Riviera to the Rhine", the latest and last volume in the
US Army in WW2 "green" series. Available from the US GPO for
around $30. Covers US 7th Army ops Aug '44 - Feb 45.

Scott.
Scott Hannon, Mon Oct 3 1994 (hannon@umbc.edu)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 12:12:08 -0230
From:    Stephen Cloutier <cloutier@MORGAN.UCS.MUN.CA>
Subject: Egypt

Hi,

  I've been reading the list with great interest over the past couple of
months.  I was wondering if anyone on the list can help me.  I am a Ph.D.
student in the English department at the Memorial University of
Newfoundland.  My dissertation is on a group of British writers who were
in Cairo during the Second World War.  Since I am attempting to put them
in a historical context, I need a couple of good books on the war in the
desert.  I was wondering if members of this list could recommend a few.

Steve Cloutier
Memorial University
St. John's, Newfoundland

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 10:49:00 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: WEAP: F-82

     >Will someone be so kind as to refresh my memory?  Did the F-82
     >make into combat or at least service in WW 2? TIA,
     >***************************************************** Brad Coon
     >              Windows: the operating COON@IPFWCVAX.BITNET
     >system for people who COON@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU    think even a
     >Macintosh
     >is too fast.

     >Remember, only YOU can prevent political correctness!
     >******************************************************


     No,

     The F-82 was not in service at the tome of the Japanese surrender.  It
     did not see combat until Korea.


        Steve L. New                     .............................
        Weapon System Manager            .............................
        Battalion Countermine Set        ............ /\ .............
        U.S. Army TACOM AMSTA-IM-FR1D    ............/  \.............
        DSN: 786-5403  FAX: 786-7788     ............    .............
        EMAIL  NEWST@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL   ............    .............

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 10:59:30 EDT
From:    Brian Nicklas <NASAD003@SIVM.SI.EDU>
Subject: BULL: was TACT:Could they have...

"Spec" or "Bull" sounds like a great idea to me.
I am really starting to use the intros, they really save time...

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 12:36:38 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: Re: TACT:COULD THEY HA

I agree with you, Ed. However, many submitting speculations come with no
knowledge or source material, and what is submitted is pure speculation. I
appreciate learning something new or being able to provide facts/information
when possible. But some of the stuff we get on the net is a waste of time and
space and don't do the submitters much credit. How is Stamford in these
beautiful fall days? Regards, Ben

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 12:50:51 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: Re: TAC: ?'COULD STILL

Captain Harry Butcher was Gen Eisenhower's naval aide. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 10:31:02 -0600
From:    Dave Neil <S05116%FLC@VAXF.COLORADO.EDU>
Subject: SPEC or BULL

How about HYPO for hypothetical?

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 12:43:29 -0500
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Italy in WW2, my $0.02--part II

Run-of-the-mill Blackshirt (MVSN) units had a spotty at best combat record
and cannot be considered very good overall.  However, there were exceptions.
Chief among these, in my mind, was the Giovanni Fascisti ("Young Fascists")
Division that fought in North Africa in 1942-43.  Organized from the cream of
the Fascist youth organizations, and provided with better mobility than the
average Italian division (also supported by some truck-mounted artillery),
the Giovanni Fascisti fought very well and held their positions against
repeated British assaults at both the Mareth Line and the Wadi Akarit
position in April 1943.  They also held out for two days along with the
German 90th Light during the final days of the Axis resistance in Africa
(May 10-12 1943), when all other forces around them were crumbling.  This
was however a special unit in terms of both manpower and equipment, unlike
the normal Blackshirt "Legions."  I'd agree that these were much more like
the SA than the Waffen SS.

I'd be interested in hearing why the Rumanians would be considered as pretty
good troops.  I've read a bit about them and it seems Rumania's military
situation was similar to Italy's in a lot of ways-- lack of equipment,
training, sufficient numbers of competent officers-- compunded by the
country's small-power status.  Sure, Rumanian forces had their moments--
they might have done some of their most successful fighting against the
Germans in 1944 (but then they had the enormous advantage of surprise
resulting from their rapid switching of sides, plus they were fighting
in their own country which by happy coincidence lay astride the German
supply lines in that region).  On the other hand, for every Rumanian triumph,
however small, I could probably name a larger-scale defeat.  They got
bogged down outside Odessa for two months at the start of the campaign in
Russia, scattered by a Soviet counteroffensive in the Nogay steppe in
October '41, repeatedly retreated without orders in the Crimea over that
winter, and of course got shattered at Stalingrad in Nov '42.  Not a great
combat record so far...
Anyway, just my 3.5 cents worth.

Regards

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 12:44:22 -0500
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP:aircraft comparisons

Also for Yugoslavia in April '41 (Me-109s and Hurricanes on the same side)

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 11:54:17 -0600
From:    Chip Merton <MERTON@VAX1.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: F-82

Is the F-82 you are talking about the same a\c as the P-80 Shooting Star,
after they changed the designators from 'P' to 'F', or is it an off-shoot?

If I recall correctly (resources not at hand) the P-80 was flown in Italy
and the UK in early '45 but did not see any action. Can anyone confirm this?

Thanks--Chip     "merton@vax1.mankato.msus.edu"

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 13:05:39 EDT
From:    William Lippert <WL1958A@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Egypt

To Steve Cloutier
    I have read many books about Rommel.  One of them is "The Trail of the
Fox" by David Irving.  Another is "Knights Cross"; the author escapes me
but it was published within the last six months.  There should be a lot of
books, though, on the Afrika Corps and the British 8th Army.  Good luck

William Lippert
The American University

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 13:44:45 -0400
From:    John Meierhoffer <JMEIERHO@MAIL.NYSED.GOV>
Subject: Re: WEAP: F-82 -Reply

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Is the F-82 you are talking about the same a\c as the P-80 Shooting Star, after they changed the
designators from 'P' to 'F', or is it an off-shoot?


Thanks--Chip     "merton@vax1.mankato.msus.edu"

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

The North American F-82 was an off shoot of the P-51.  It consisted of two late model P-51's
fuselages (with bubble hood) linked at the wings and the horizontal stablizer.

Machine guns were carried in the wing section between the two aircraft.  This was also where the
radar unit was placed in the nightfighter version

 I believe pilots could be carried in both cockpits.


John Meierhoffer                                jmeierho@mail.nysed.gov
Albany NY

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 13:48:40 -0500
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: mea culpa

        Ouch--shot down by my own sources!!  Thanks to Emmanuel for
pointing out (correctly) that the Fiat CR32 fighter did indeed mount
the 12.7-mm mg in Spain, contrary to my earlier assertions.  I obviously
misremembered what I read in Gunston's book.  That's the great thing about this
list-- you can always learn something (even something you think you already
know).  I'd say more but my foot's in my mouth...

Regards

Mike Yaklich

PS:  Thanks a lot to Steve New for posting that info on the Ca 310.
That was exactly what I needed!

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 14:02:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: WEAP: F-82

 >Is the F-82 you are talking about the same a\c as the P-80 Shooting Star,
 >after they changed the designators from 'P' to 'F', or is it an off-shoot?

Negative.  The P/F-82 was the Twin Mustang, i.e., 2 Mustang
fuselages with a center spar.  Different versions of the P/F-82
were delivered as fighter-bombers and night fighters.

 >If I recall correctly (resources not at hand) the P-80 was flown in Italy
 >and the UK in early '45 but did not see any action. Can anyone confirm this?
 >
 >Thanks--Chip     "merton@vax1.mankato.msus.edu"

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 14:16:53 -0400
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: ADMIN: What-Ifs

        My own views of what-if scenarios is that they are appropriate
if they start with some key decision going a different way or somehow
have their roots in reality.  ("What if the Czechs had resisted?",
"Would the US have invaded Japan without the A-bombs?", etc.) Intelligent
discourse can still be maintained despite the very nature of the question
that it is unanswerable.  They're mind candy and many of us have an
intellectual sweet tooth that we indulge on occasion.  However, flights
of fancy should be avoided ("What if time-travelers had provided the
Germans with B-52s?" or "What if aliens had landed at Stalingrad?",
etc.)  I will add a WHAT-IF flag so topics can be marked as such for
the benefit of those who don't care for them.  So basically, I like
them so they can stay!
--
Joe Barone, WWII-L listowner
m1b@ssd.ray.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 13:32:29 -0500
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <TWATTS@EXODUS.VALPO.EDU>
Subject: Re: [INF] USAAF 2 OCT 44

Jack McKillop noted B-17 bombing a FORD (!) motor vehicle plant in Cologne
Germany on this date.  Does anyone know if there were many American-owned
manufacturing plants in Europe, contributing to the Nazi war effort?  I
always thought American-owned plants in foreign countries were a
phenomenon of the post-war era.
Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 14:35:56 -0400
From:    Emery Ford <eford@DELPHI.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Invasion of Crete -- Operation Merkur

Hello,

Does anyone know of some good source material for a day-to-day account
of the German assault on Crete?  This seems like an incredibly bold
undertaking and a fascinating study.

Emery

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 13:52:07 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: TACT:Could they have won ?

Hello, William!


>    Hitler and the Germans knew that the end would come later if they
> stayed on the defensive.  An offensive operation, if successful, would
> have had the effect of raising German morale, shaking Allied confidence,
> and perhaps permitting a political settlement with the West.  No doubt
> that these were very unlikely, but they were better than conceding to
> inevitable defeat.

    However, you must admit that the German failure in the Ardennes
accelerated their defeat, as it was.

Terry

 > William Lippert
> The American University
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 13:55:51 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: German Military Vehicles

Hello, Steve!

Bill Huber named some museums that would be worth a trip. I would
personally recommend to you the Wehrtechnisches Museum in Koblenz,
Germany that is 4 stories tall and contains many very interesting
artifacts as well as AFV's.

    The Mayor of Koblenz, Mr. Willi Hoerter, personally arranged the
construction and layout of this museum.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 14:10:35 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Switzerland in WWII

Hello, Pascal!

Switzerland was neutral, but it did play in role in several areas,
mainly covert.

    Bern was the HQ of Allen Dulles, the head of OSS in Europe in
WWII.
    Switzerland was also the site of many Allied aircraft that chose
to land there rather than continue the war. Some deliberately, some
due to navigational errors.

    Switzerland was also involved in such an episode in which a copy
of the their latest night fighter, an Me-110, armed with Schraege
Music, Lichtenstein radar, forward-firing machine guns, which landed
in Zurich by mistake. The pilot Wilhelm Johnen, who is still alive
today, got lost and was forced to land because of lack of fuel. The
airplane and crew were interned. This caused such a furor in Berlin
that Goering surreptitiously offered the Swiss 6 Me-109 aircraft,
either in outright exchange for the plane, or at least as a sop to
the Swiss to destroy it, if it could not be returned. In any event,
the Swiss consented to allow this aircraft to be destroyed in the
presence of German witnesses. This took place at Dubendorff field
outside of Zurich in 1944. The crew was sent back home by train in
civilian clothes and were returned to flight status. The Swiss were
still given the 6 Me-109's.

    Hope this has been of interest.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 15:16:18 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <sep@TVSS2.COMMNET.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: F-82

How was the P-82 managed? What happened, for example when the right pilot
wanted to go left, and the left pilot wanted to go right? Was one pilot
designated the lead pilot? And what if he got disabled in flight?

Maybe I'm confused, but I cannot for the life of me figure out why such
a craft was designed outside of a barroom...

(I know I show my ignorance, there HAD to be a reason!)

                                                                Steve

Go Right (Limbaugh), Go Left (Clinton), Sink'em entirely (Perot) ;-)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - sep@trctc.commnet.edu |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 14:25:06 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Eric Brown

Hello, Tim!

> Does anyone know if American-built carrier fighters tangled with Me-109's
> during British airstrikes against the Tirpitz in Norway?

    No. It was strictly a  British  operation. You may be thinking of
the chase and pursuit of the Bismarck, the sister ship of the
Tirpitz. The Bismarck was sighted and located by a patroling
Catalina, at the time the US was still neutral in May 1941. This info
was sent to the Brits which resulted in the sinking of the ship.

        Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 14:26:44 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Egypt

Hello, Steve!

I have several I can recommend to you. I will send you a list of
books I have in my library that deal with the desert war.

    More later.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 14:36:18 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Italy in WW2, my $0.02--part II

Hello, Greg!


> Continuing in the vein of Italy's miltary prowess, both real & imagined,
> does anyone out there really, honestly & truly consider the MSVN
> Blackshirt Legions to be comparable to the Waffen-SS?

    Absolutely not. The pre-war Waffen-SS units had no equal within
Europe. These people were chosen for their racial purity and physical
characteristics. They were given the very best equipment and
training. The Italians had nothing to compare with this.



 The impression I've
> gathered would class them closer to armed SA units--more a political
> militia that, to be sure, were considered "elites", but more due to
> political status & indoctrination rather than anything resembling special
> forces training or weapons.

    That is true.

 Probably more dedicated or inpsired than
> regular troops, which when you're fighting in southern Russia or Eastern
> Africa might make quite a difference.

    Perhaps, but, as you know the Italians and Spanish did not do
well in Russia.

> Hey, don't mind me.  I'm still trying to find anyone to agree with my
> contention that the Rumanians were good troops.

    Not even the Rumanians I have spoken with have a high opinion of
their own troops in WWII. They say that the Rumanian soldier in WWII
was a "coward, and would run at the first opportunity."

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 15:31:30 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <sep@TVSS2.COMMNET.EDU>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: What-Ifs

Joe Barrone, WWII-L listowner writes:

>        My own views of what-if scenarios is that they are appropriate
>if they start with some key decision going a different way or somehow
>have their roots in reality.  ("What if the Czechs had resisted?",
>"Would the US have invaded Japan without the A-bombs?", etc.) Intelligent
>discourse can still be maintained despite the very nature of the question
>that it is unanswerable.  They're mind candy and many of us have an
>intellectual sweet tooth that we indulge on occasion.  However, flights
>of fancy should be avoided ("What if time-travelers had provided the
>Germans with B-52s?" or "What if aliens had landed at Stalingrad?",
>etc.)  I will add a WHAT-IF flag so topics can be marked as such for
>the benefit of those who don't care for them.  So basically, I like
>them so they can stay!

You mean the Germans didn't get the V weapons from aliens? If so, then
the ones who landed at Stalingrad that created the rough winter died for
naught!

Sorry, Joe, I couldn't resist;-)

a *WHAT* took it??!?!                                   :-)Steve

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - sep@trctc.commnet.edu |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 15:32:33 EDT
From:    William Lippert <WL1958A@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject: Re: TACT:Could they have won ?

On Mon, 3 Oct 1994 13:52:07 GMT-6 Robert T. Moore said:
>    However, you must admit that the German failure in the Ardennes
>accelerated their defeat, as it was.
>
>Terry


Terry,
   The Ardennes Offensive probably did hasten their defeat.  But, without
the benefit of hindsight, what would you do if you were Hitler, faced with
a superior enemy on both sides?  I'm sorry to those people who don't like
if questions, but they are essential for a full understanding of why certain
decisions were made and events came to pass.  Rommel, when faced with the
British in North Africa driving him almost out of Italy, counterattacked.
This is what made him the Desert Fox - striking when least expected.
      All together, I found Hitler's offensive very admirable.  To begin
with, he clearly caught the Allies by surprise.  Second, that although it
was ultimately to fail, it did restore morale to the German troops for
a while.  And third, I might question whether or not it speeded up the
end of the Reich.  The troops and equipment would probably have been
encircled, destroyed by the air, or just chewed up on the Eastern Front.
It really might have only made the difference of a month or two.

William Lippert
The American University

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 14:54:10 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Invasion of Crete -- Operation Merkur

Hello, Emery!

I have some sources on this at home and will post them to you
tomorrow.

More later.

It has also been my privelege to have corresponded with the man who,
along with Generaloberst Kurt Student, planned that operation, General
der Fallschirmtruppen Alfred Schlemm, as well as German vets who were
there.

More tomorrow.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 15:52:48 -0400
From:    "J.M.Ruel" <ad388@DAYTON.WRIGHT.EDU>
Subject: Re: American Air Museum

The American Air Museum will be located at RAF Duxford England. This is the
sight of the British Air Museum. It has progressed to the plans being accepted
and now funding is stumbling block. RAF Duxford was the site for some of the
filming of Memphis Belle. It is a nice museum with an active airfield. They
show both British and American aircraft along with other military equipment.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 15:46:44 -0400
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: ADMIN: Introduction to WWII-L

Revision: 3 October 1994
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[I've added a new flag and ftp sites of archives.  Let me know if I've missed
any sites.  Thanks.  - Joe]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Welcome to WWII-L, a list dedicated to the discussion of the greatest
cataclysm of the Twentieth century (and, hopefully, the last.)  My name is
Joe Barone and I am the listowner.  I can be reached at m1b@ssd.ray.com.

        WWII-L will be self-moderated.  This means that each of you will
always try to remember that there is a human being on the other end of the
wire, and the "Golden Rule" is rule number one!

        Our subject is HUGE and not everyone will be interested in everything
that moves over the list.  To ease YOUR burden of sorting the items you wish
to read, I offer the following "flags".  They will go FIRST on the Subject:
line.  (This section will be enforced when traffic gets heavy, otherwise
members may use their discretion on the matter.)

EDU   For discussion of aspects of teaching about the war.
SCI   For discussion of science and technology; may overlap with WEAP.
WEAP  For talk of weapons, usage of weapons, and "My favorite weapon."
POL   Political discussions, such as the effects of the Yalta Conference.
TAC   Tactical and Strategic discussions, "Island hopping vs. Single axis"
REF   References, review, where-to-buy, etc.
INF   Tables of Organization, raw data, chronologies, etc.
DOC   Reproductions of documents, Declarations of War, Speeches, Treaties, etc.
GEN   "Let's find a category for this."
TRV   For you trivia buffs. Try to stump everyone.
VET   For reunions, VA announcements, Legislation affecting veterans.
HOME  For discussions of events on the "Homefront".  To help distinguish
      WHICH homefront we're talking about, use the following format:
      HOME:US for the U.S.A.,
      HOME:GER for Germany, and so forth.
NOST  For nostalgia items, such as trips to battle sites, historical
      recreations, museum information, where to buy badges and hats, etc.
ADMIN For listowner use, to post introduction and related material.
      Responses to these articles are welcome, but only listowner
      should originate an "ADMIN" article.
WANT  For trading, suggestion on stores worth visting, etc.  Please offer to
      send more information via e-mail rather than posting an entire inventory.
MEDIA To review and report TV and other media "events".
NEWS  For reproductions of newspaper, magazine, and other articles from the
      period under discussion.  Present day news items should be post under
      "MEDIA".
ARC   For discussion of on-line resources and materials, such as those avail-
      able via ftp or gopher.  Discussion of the WWII-OLA (On-Line Archives
      should be posted under this flag.)
TROUBLE  Error messages from a site or address. Last chance to contact me
      before I'm forced to delete you! Anyone who knows the member in question
      is urged to contact them and have the problem corrected.
| WHAT-IF  For discussing scenarios of what may have happened if things had
|       been just a wee bit different.  Situations must have their roots in
|       history and reality rather than flights of fancy.

        Some items will overlap, of course, but the main thrust of the item
should be clear.  Try not to ask so many questions in a single post that the
flags become inoperative.  Several short posts are preferable to one long one,
and are easier to answer and quote.  You should change the flag in the subject
line if the thread takes a new direction.  If you reply to a posting which
didn't have a flag, please insert the proper flag.  (This can help categorize
the subject for people who have to download the mail via slow modem, one of
the main reasons for having the flags at all.)

        Threads have been known to mutate so that the Subject: line no longer
gives any indication of the content of the message.  I ask that you check
the Subject: line when replying to a message and change it to something
more appropriate if this is the case.

        Since messages may arrive at sites out of order, it's always a good
idea to quote portions of a previous message that you are responding to.
This does not mean that the entire message with headers should be included,
but those lines that are relevant.  It helps if proper attribution (who
said the quoted material) is given.  Also, try to avoid quoting large
tracts of text and simply adding an "I agree!" line with no additional
information.  A good rule of thumb is not to have more quoted text than
new material.  Of course, content is always more important than style so
these suggestions may not apply.

        Abbreviations are another subject that needs attention.  While many
of us will be comfortable with the most arcane and obscure acronyms and
abbreviations, many of the readers of this list are here to learn more about
the war and will have trouble decyphering your articles if they are packed
with "LAH", "CinCUS", "StuG III", etc.  PLEASE expand these terms at least
once in your post.

        Similarly, since this list is primarily in English, could we please
translate the "foreign" terms?  A long discussion on "Kido Butai" or
"Wacht-am-Rhine" without an explantion of the terms isn't polite if we
exclude part of the list because they have no clue as to the meaning of
the terms.  The converse should also be remembered: English is not the
primary language of many members of the list.  Usenet short-hand should
also be expanded once to avoid redundant traffic explaining what such
abbreviations as BTW mean ("by the way").


        Now we come to the REALLY hard part.

        Some subjects have been beaten to death or evoke strong emotional
responses.  However, I realize that they'll come up from time to time.
If you feel that the following topics must be addressed, ensure that your
wording is precise; consider the responses that it might evoke; and use
the topics flag.  It is not my duty to censor any pertinent topic from this
list, but these topics should be handled carefully.  Failure to do so may
result in "flame wars" which will *not* be tolerated on this list.  The
mailing list suffered through one flame war pertaining to the second topic
below.  It nearly killed the list so I am loath to see if the list can
tolerate another.  Also, in regards to the Holocaust, there is another
mailing-list, HOLOCAUS-L, devoted to the topic so readers should subscribe
to that list for a more thorough discussion of that topic.  The current
list of topics are:

        1. The Holocaust.
        2. Internment of Japanese-Americans in the US.

        Also, while conspiracy theories were all the rage during in the 1970s
and 1980s, they're rather passe now.  Their novelty is gone and there is little
or no evidence to support them.  Occam's razor applies here: don't attribute
to malice the results of ignorance.  Accordingly, the following topics are
discouraged:

        1. Did Roosevelt know about the coming attack on Pearl Harbor and
           intentionally do nothing in order to drag the US into the war?
        2. Did Churchill allow the bombing of Conventry to occur in order
           to protect the secret of Ultra?

        While on the topic of touchy topics and flame wars, there are a
few individuals in the world who delight in posting the most assinine
assertions for the sole purpose of enraging the more serious members of a
group.  These people seem to derive pleasure seeing how much traffic they
can generate.  A subset of this group may actually believe the preposterous
things that they are claiming.  Regardless of such an individual's
motivation, though, if a message angers you, I ask that you not respond
immediately, if at all.  First, you would probably be playing right into
their hands and, secondly, nearly every other sensible person will have
the same response as your own.  I try to stay on top of this list in order
to prevent such flame wars, but propogation delays make it impossible for
me to react instantaneously.  Hopefully, I'll have the wisdom to discern
"flamebait" from an actual desire to debate an unpopular theory.


        One last item, STATE YOUR REFERENCES!  You're in tough company here.
| Members include historians, published authors, and two veterans (which I
| consider our most prized asset).  Some of the folks in this list are VERY
sharp, and you'll end up with egg on your face if you haven't done your
homework.

        Normally the listserv will want you to subscribe from your own account
rather than having me add you to the list.  This allows the software to confirm
mailing routes as I don't always get your full address in the mail.

        Contact me if listserv gives you any problems and we'll seek a solution.

SUBSCRIPTION INFOMATION:

ALL Messages are to go to:

listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu (internet)
listserv@ubvm                (bitnet)

Send the following commands  in the body of the message.

To SUBSCRIBE:
subscribe wwii-l (your name)

To UNSUBSCRIBE:
unsubscribe wwii-l

To turn mail off for a period without unsubscribing:
set wwii-l nomail

To turn mail back on when ready:
set wwii-l mail

To Digest (have all postings sent in one mailing per day):
set wwii-l digest

To restore normal mail (undigest the list.)
set wwii-l mail

To confirm that your posting has been sent to the list:
set wwii-l ack

To get a copy of your posting sent to you:
set wwii-l repro

(Ack will send you a note saying "your file has been succesfully distributed,
and repro will send a copy back to you of your posting..


To retrieve logfiles for WWII-L send mail to listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu or
                                             listserv@ubvm (for bitnet)
with this message in the body:
get wwii-l log9407c

This file will contain all the postings sent to the list in the third week
of July, 1994.

The files are held for two months and broken down by seven day periods (which
usually don't coincide with the calendar "week".  Thus you might see this
kind of entry


WWII-L LOG9407A  (for 01-07 July, 1994)
WWII-L LOG9407B  (for 08-14 July, 1994)
WWII-L LOG9407C  (for 15-21 July, 1994)

You can also get the files by ftp if you have access.  FTP into
ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu and cd to WWII-L.  The files are in ascii format
and the machine is case sensitive.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's a tip on getting older messages from the listserver:

        One of the features of the listserver is the database search.  This
allows the user to search for any subject and print either an index of the
"hits" or the articles themselves.  For instance, if you mail the command
sequence below to "listserv@ubvm.bitnet" or "listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu"
it will send you an index of all articles in the archive that deal with
weapons (the WEAP: tag).  (The usefulness of the subject flags discussed
earlier should be apparent now.)

        One member of the list used the old example that accompanied this
introduction and notified me that it didn't work.  Below is the correct
sequence of commands to search the database.  I've tried it so I can
vouch for its utility.

//      JOB Echo=No
Database Search DD=Rules
//Rules DD *
search WEAP: in WWII-L
index
/*

        If you change the word "index" to "print" it will return you a
copy of the articles themselves.  You can start with the listserv command,
"info database" and receive a complete set of instructions for using the
database. These instructions are not trivial and are a bit voluminous
but they are thorough and will help you get what you want.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
|       Several members of the list provide daily updates of events that
| occurred 50 years ago.  Much of this information is archived.  Below are
| the addresses for retrieving archives of this information and much more.
|
| COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES is archived at two sites:
|
|   1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
|   2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in
|       pub/history/military/airforce/ wwii_chronology
|
| 50 YEARS AGO TODAY is archived at:
|
|   1. ftp.netcom.com, in directory /pub/jbd
|
| 50 YEARS AGO OF NAVAL ACTIVITIES and other historical goodies:
|
|   1. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu in directory /pub/history and all subdirectories
|
|       To access these archives, connect to the desired system, enter
| "anonymous" when prompted for login ID, then enter your Internet mail
| address when prompted for password.
|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If I haven't suffciently confused you, send me e-mail and I'll finish
the job. :-)  I can be reached at the following address:

Joe Barone, WWII-L Listowner
m1b@ssd.ray.com
W: (401) 842-4054
Always wit' da negative waves, Moriarty!  Always wit' da negative waves!

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 15:43:32 EDT
From:    William Lippert <WL1958A@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject: Re: POL:Hiroshima

On Thu, 29 Sep 1994 09:09:26 EDT Ken Koester said:
>On Wed, 28 Sep 1994 15:08:53 GMT-6 Robert T. Moore said:
>>    Also, consider the experimental nature of the bomb. There was no
>>consensus at the time that it would work. In the case of the Nagasaki
>>bomb, they were more certain, but not with the first one.
>
>?  Wasn't the U-235 bomb used first?  I don't think they could have had
>many doubts on that one at all; it was about as simple a device as can
>be imagined:  just a gun firing uranium bullets at a uranium target.
>The plutonium device was far more complicated and delicate an affair.
>
>ken koester
>maint2@ers.bitnet


    The making of a successful atomic weapon is no easy task.  One has to
have precise wiring lengths so that the explosive around the U-235 is
detonated at the same moment to achieve uniform implosion.  These weapons
were made in an era without the aid of digital measuring devices, remember.
And then, of course, the explosive itself had to be uniformly distributed.
It had to be the right quantity, lest it explode rather than implode (I
think).  In sum, the triggering device was not easy to make.

William Lippert
The American University

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 15:04:19 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <rjg@UMNSTAT.STAT.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: F-82

> How was the P-82 managed? What happened, for example when the right pilot
> wanted to go left, and the left pilot wanted to go right? Was one pilot
> designated the lead pilot? And what if he got disabled in flight?
>
> Maybe I'm confused, but I cannot for the life of me figure out why such
> a craft was designed outside of a barroom...
>
> (I know I show my ignorance, there HAD to be a reason!)

Easy.  :-)  Actually, there was only one pilot.  The second cabin normally
housed the radar/weapons officer.

Basically, the P-82 is a standard two-seat tandem fighter/bomber.  The only
real difference is that the first step between the two seats is fairly
steep.

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
rjg@stat.umn.edu                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 13:07:49 -0800
From:    Ron Skinner <rskinner@TERMINUS.INTERMIND.NET>
Subject: Re: POL:Hiroshima

Terry writes:

>   Hiroshima and Nagasaki were targeted for two reasons. 1) The
>Americans were wanting to use this device on cities that had
>previously been more or less untouched by the bombing. 2) At the
>time, the weather over the cities were favorable to obtaining visual
>results from the bomb, in other words, minimal cloud cover.

I agree. Here's a brief excerpt from NO HIGH GROUND by Knebel and Bailey:

   Hiroshima had been spared the most frightful results of the war.
   While almost every other urban area in the island kingdom had
   been seared by the incendiary mixtures dropped by the B-29s, this
   ancient river-mouth city had felt the concussion of only twelve enemy
   missiles in three and one half years of war. Two small bombs were
   dropped by a flight of US Navy raiders in March, 1945, and six weeks
   later a single B-29, unable to reach its prime target, let go a string
   of ten 500-pounders. In all, about a dozen people were killed.

David Nishimura writes:

> On the other side, it seems that the Hiroshima memorial museum is now
> finally displaying material that traces the course of Japanese aggression
> that led to the bombing, instead of depicting it as an unprovoked
> martyrdom.  Apparently a number of residents were quite shocked to see
> Pacific War-era photos of the city and its railyards full of soldiers and
> ordnance, after having long been taught Hiroshima was a purely civilian
> target.

While I agree with the general disdain for what has been labeled
"revisionist" here, facts contrary to our opinions don't necessarily belong
in that category. Hiroshima was a far different city by the time of the
bombing than that depicted in the photographs. A case in point from the
aforementioned source:

   Down by the docks, from which almost every Nipponese soldier who
   went to the southwestern Pacific fighting area had sailed, a
   deathlike quiet hung over the big embarkation facilities. . . .
   Where the city in earlier years had bulged with as many as 100,000
   troops en route to the front, it now held only one division, and
   that was preparing for defense, not attack. . . . The once-busy
   harbor was dead. American planes had dropped so many mines into the
   waters of the Inland Sea that no shipping came to Hiroshima any more.

Too often writers, myself included, begin with a premise and selectively
present evidence to support our points of view with little regard for any
larger context. Ultimately this is the failure of NO HIGH GROUND. But,
however skewed we may think the authors' perspective, there is no denying
that such "revisionists" often make valid points, and we do scholarship a
disservice to pretend otherwise.

For the record, had I been responsible for making the decision concerning
the atomic bombings, I would have bombed Hiroshima for the simple reason
that doing so left the enemy with no doubt as to the power of the weapon
and my resolve to use it. Immoral? Perhaps. But how less immoral would have
been a president's decision to invade Japan at the undoubted cost of tens
of thousands of American lives when he had so effective an alternative to
their sacrifice at hand?

Ron Skinner

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 16:19:46 -0400
From:    Emery Ford <eford@DELPHI.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Hungarians and Rumanians on the Eastern Front

Hello,

I've read various allusions that the tension between Hungarians and
Rumanians in WWII was so high that they occasionally fight each other.
Does anyone have access to specific accounts?

Emery

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 16:24:59 EDT
From:    Brian Nicklas <NASAD003@SIVM.SI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Switzerland in WWII

A photo book from Squadron/Signal on US/Swiss adventures in WWII,
"Strangers in a Strange Land" by Stapfer is quite good.
He points out that if you landed in Switzerland you were a "Detainee"
but if you landed in Germany and escaped into Switzerland you were
a "Evadee" and treated much differently.
A co-worker of my father's was a detainee as a result of a
B-17 landing at a Swiss airfield and he has absolutely
no love for the Swiss.  He related that the treatment was very poor
until it was evident that the Allies were winning.
But to counter that, I have heard that it varied on who one dealt with,
Swiss of German extraction or of French parentage.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 15:38:03 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAPON: Amphibious Landings and Tanks

Hello, Mike!

The Germans also used those same PzKw III's in the crossing of the
Bug at Brest-Litovsk in Poland during the opening phases of Operation
Barbarossa. Please consult Paul Carrel's book "Hitler Moves East" for
additional details.

Terry

> I am aware of those PzKw III's  (and have even seen a photo, from "Signal")
> used for crossing the Nieman in June '41.  They were actually designed and teste
> d for the cancelled Sea Lion operation.  An inflatable rubber tube around the
> turret made it watertight, and an early version of the schnorkel concept
> allowed the engine to breathe.  The caps over the gun barrel were popped off
> by compressed air to allow the tank to be combat-ready as soon as it reached
> the other side (without any of the crew having to exit the vehicle).  These
> tanks were not standard field equipment and to the best of my knowledge were
> not used again.  There is a good account of this operation in Paul Carell's
> "Hitler Moves East."
>
> Mike Yaklich
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 16:37:45 EDT
From:    Henry Sirotin <hhs@EVEREST.HUNTER.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Italy in WW2, my $0.02--part II

Did the pre-war SS really have no equal in Europe? Royal Marines? And  what
do we know of elite Soviet units in this period?

Whatever the opinion of WW II Rumanian troops may be, they were hardly
cowards. Those committed to Barbarossa prior to Nov 1941 took some of
the highest casualty rates in the European war.

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 14:25:40 EST
From:    coon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU
Subject: INF: U.S. plants in enemy countries

Hello Tim,
        Its been many years ago that I read it, but there was a little
book called _Trading With the Enemy_ devoted to the subject.  Sorry I
don't have the author but it ought to be in any decent library.
*****************************************************
Brad Coon                     Windows: the operating
COON@IPFWCVAX.BITNET          system for people who
COON@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU    think even a Macintosh
                              is too fast.

Remember, only YOU can prevent political correctness!
******************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 17:14:36 EDT
From:    Henry Sirotin <hhs@EVEREST.HUNTER.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP:aircraft comparisons

Dear Mike,

Thanks. Hadn't known that about the Yugoslav AF..

HS

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 17:15:40 -0500
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hungarians and Rumanians on the Eastern Front

        The tension between the Rumanians and Hungarians, then as now, was
largely the dispute over Transylvania.  The two nations had been on the verge
of war over this issue in summer 1940 when the Germans stepped in and
adjudicated a peace treaty at the Bellvidere palace in Vienna.  Rumania was the
big loser in this treaty territorially speaking (Manoilescu, the Rumanian
Foreign Minister, was said to have fainted when shown the new border lines),
but part of the deal was a German guarantee of the remainder of the Rumanian
state.  This was actually the beginning of a close three-year relationship
between the Germans and the Antonescu government.
        I believe what you're referring to is not actual fighting between
Rumanian and Hungarian forces on the eastern front, but rather the preventive
measures taken by the Germans to prevent incidents (most notoriously, the
Italian 8th Army in Russia was supposedly inserted between the Rumanians and
the Hungarian 2nd Army along the Don in 1942 specifically to avoid conflicts).
        C.A. Macartney's "History of Hungary 1929-45" is an excellent, detailed
account of Hungarian diplomacy before and during WW2 which goes into the
situation with Rumania at some length.

Regards

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 16:44:28 -0500
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <TWATTS@EXODUS.VALPO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Operation Truckin'

Thanks to Jack McKillop for information about how gasoline was transported
by B-24's.  Flying with a load of 5-gallon cans of gas just waiting to leak
and catch fire is definitely a gut-wrenching nightmare.
Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 17:58:50 EDT
From:    Brian Nicklas <NASAD003@SIVM.SI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Operation Truckin'

Don Lopez once related to me that the C-109 Liberator tankers were
nicknamed "Cee-One-Oh-Boom"s due to the happy nature of the cargo. :-)
I guess that's why Don was happy to fly the P-40 and P-51.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 18:05:33 -0500
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Italy in WW2, my $0.02--part II

        As per my previous post, I agree that the Blackshirts were in general
nowhere near the same league as the Waffen SS as combat troops.  Still, in the
last post on this topic I have to take exception to one line, referring to
"the Italians and the Spanish didn't do very well in Russia."  Actually, if
you look at the record of the Italian forces fighting on the eastern front you
will find that, prior to the Soviet counteroffensive against 8th Army in
December '42, they generally fought better there than in any other theatre
(with the possible exception of Yugoslavia).  The original CSIR ("Corpo di
Spedizione Italiano in Russia") was composed of the "Amadeo D'Aosta" celere
division and the Torino and Pasubio "motor-transportable" divisions.  All three
were somewhat sub-strength in manpower (a "celere" division at full strength
had 7,700 men; "motor-transportable" units were deliberately kept small so as
to make it easier to find adequate motor transport).  The "celere" division was
a mix of two or three small (actually battalion-size) horse cavalry regiments,
a bersaglieri bicycle regiment, a tank battalion (with L3 light tanks), and (in
the case of the "Amadeo D'Aosta") a horse-drawn artillery regiment.  The other
two divisions had motorized artillery but the rest were marching infantry-- the
term "motor-transportable" referred to motor transport which was not organic to
the division (except for the aforementioned artillery) but which would
theoretically be provided from corps or army HQ.  There was a motor transport
command for personnel within the command set-up of the CSIR.  The Italian force
totalled 63,000 men, commanded by General Giovanni Messe, who had established a
good reputation for defending Valona in Albania during the Greek campaign.
        The CSIR, operating on the southern third of the front, got its first
action in August 1941, the Pasubio Division being the first to engage the Red
Army.  They successfully forced a crossing of the Dneiper in early September,
won a five-day fight against Soviet rear-guards on the other side, and played a
major role in the capture (hardly ever credited in English-language histories,
which have a disturbing tendency to regard all Axis victories as "German") of
the industrial center of Stalino in October.  Swept along by the pace of the
German-led drive east, they advanced up to 250 miles in a week!  Italian forces
often volunteered for the tough job of winkling out Soviet die-hards, whom, as
anyone who's read a bit about the Russian front knows, often fought to the
death even when holding positions miles behind the fighting front.  In late
December the CSIR, although suffering badly from the cold and lack of supplies,
managed to contain a local Soviet counterattack in what the Italians called the
"Battle of Christmas."  Their retreat of only a few kilometers before
stabilizing their lines was not a bad performance by Axis standards in the east
in late December '41.  Later they joined the general retreat.
        In mid-summer 1942, in response to requests by the Germans, the
Italians increased their forces in the east, creating 8th Army (Gen.
Gariboldi), which incorporated the CSIR (now known as 35th Corps) as well as
2nd Corps of two regular infantry divisions and the Alpini Corps of three elite
mountain divisions.  An additional division was assigned to keep the lines of
communications free of partisans.  This commitment brought the Italian forces
in Russia up to 200,000 men, but the general level of motorization fell.  The
Italians never sent an armored vehicle of over 7 tons to Russia, and their
armored forces there at the start of the campaign amounted to 55 L3 and L6
tanks (44 of the 283 L6's built fought in Russia) and 19 self-propelled 47-mm
guns.  Italian units sent east in '42 were notoriously badly-equipped.  In most
platoons there was only one Beretta submachinegun instead of the prescribed
four, battalions usually lacked any kind of antitank weapons, and most
regiments were eithout the four 47-mm antitank guns their t/o's called for.
        Nonetheless, in August 1942 the 35th Corps, holding the line of the Don
river north of Stalingrad, fought off a Soviet counteroffensive aimed at
relieving the pressure on Stalingrad in the area around Serafimovich.  It was a
pretty hard-fought affair, the Italians suffering 1,700 casualties, but in the
end taking over 2,000 Soviet prisoners and capturing 10 tanks (including a
number of US-made "lend-lease" Grants)-- and doing all this without direct
German help (in fact, their tough stand saved the Germans some embarrasment).
This fight culminated in the "ultima carrica" ("last charge") of the Italian
horse cavalry, near the village of Ischbuschensky (actually it wasn't the last
charge--that came in Yugoslavia a couple months later, but that's another
story).  The Savoia cavalry regiment, about 600 men strong, attacked a Soviet
force of 2,000 men (three battalions), dug in and supported by four cannon and
over 50 machineguns.  Partly due to the sheer audacity and "shock" of their
onslaught and partly because of good tactics (one squadron advanced on foot
frontally as a diversion while a second charged the flank on horseback, the
third squadron then coming in on horseback from the front to complete the
route) they put the Soviets to flight, nearly wiping out two of the enemy
battalions.   This unlikely victory was the last act of the successful phase of
the Italian participation in the east.  In December 1942 the Soviets, having
already rolled up the Rumanian 3rd and 4th Armies and encircled the German 6th
Army in Stalingrad, launched a new full-scale offensive against the Italian 8th
Army (behind whose front lay the main airfields for the Luftwaffe units
attempting to airlift supplies to the surrounded forces in Stalingrad).
Outnumbered four to one, assailed by tanks like the T-34 and the KV-1 which the
old 47-mm AT gun could not penetrate, and with their own artillery blinded by
snowstorms, the Italian infantry divisions holding the line were rather quickly
swept away.  This began a disastrous 300-mile retreat through temperatures of
minus-30 or more, in which the Italians lost 115,000 men (60,000 of them
prisoners), and the 8th Army was smashed as a fighting force.  This certainly
was a poor showing, but as explained above, there were plenty of creditable
efforts preceding it.  And even so, the Italians did no worse than the Rumanian
or Hungarian forces that winter, or even many German units attacked in the
1941-42 or 42-43 Soviet winter offensives.  In fact, the Alpini Corps, north of
the main breakthrough area (consisting of the Giulia, Cuneense, and Tridentina
alpini divisions) held its lines for almost another month, until the Hungarians
to their immediate north were also attacked and broken, leaving the Italian
mountain troops virtually surrounded.  Then the alpini fought their way out of
the pocket and eventually rejoined 8th Army, although the cost in men and
equipment was so high that six months later the divisions involved, refitting
in Italy, had still not recovered their combat effectiveness.
        Sorry for the length of this post, but the Italian effort is one of my
main interests, and blanket statements like "the Italians didn't do too well in
Russia" get me going (in the long run, the Germans didn't do too well there
either, did they?).  I should also mention that the single Italian fighter
group in Russia, flying Macchi MC 200's (and in 1942 a handfull of MC 202's)
over two years shot down 88 Soviet planes for the loss of 19 fighters.
        From what I know of the Spanish Blue Division, by the way, their combat
record wasn't too shabby either.  They fought almost to the death against very
heavy odds south of Leningrad.

Regards

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 19:03:18 -0400
From:    "Shelley A. McCoy" <SMCCOY@UTKVX.UTK.EDU>
Subject: Lt. Greenwood-Red Ball Express Company B. Supply Battalion????

Does anyone out there know of the Lt. or other members of the Red Ball
Express, Company B?
smccoy@utkvx.utk.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 19:07:35 -0500
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <TWATTS@EXODUS.VALPO.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Italians

I think what people have written about Mussolini's Blackshirts and their
similarity to the SA generally sums up their fighting qualities.  In
Coverdale, ITALIAN INTERVENTION IN THE SPANISH CIVIL WAR, the initial
"volunteers" were mostly Blackshirts; Coverdale indicates that many were
middle-aged political hacks who tried desperately to avoid going to
Spain.  Most of the later members of the Italian expeditionary force
seemed to be members of the Army who had no great ideological biases,
but were probably better fighting men.
Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 19:38:07 -0500
From:    Greg Kelley <gregk@STPAUL.LIB.MN.US>
Subject: Re: Italy in WW2, my $0.02--part III

Far be it for me to suggest the GGFF weren't great fighters (they were),
but again, they were an exception, with the special training & equipment
needed to make any combat formation elite.  Most of the other MSVN units
showed decidedly lower performance levels-- for example, the five
Blackshirt divisions formed in 1935 for the Abbyssinian campaign--
finally convincing the Duce to insert the bulk of the MSVN as legions
attached to regular Army divisions.  Note that only half of the units
raised by the MSVN were so assigned; each prewar Legion was essentially
split in half (the Duce liked to double his forces, didn't he?) with the
weaker half (comprised of older, less active members) retained as a
hometown garrison--sometimes armed, othertimes, well...ceremonial daggers
and banners were a mainstay.

As for the Italians' performance in Russia, yes, they did do very well.
That cavalry charge was a classic "against all odds" action that deserves
recognition (bravissimo!), and I'm glad someone's noticed.  Anyone out
there familiar with WHITE COATS UNDER FIRE dealing with an Italian
medical unit serving in Russia?  Any other titles (preferably in English)
about this aspect of Italian military history?  I'm familiar with THE
LOST LEGIONS, but that's a collection of (admittedly good) historical novels.


                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          gregk@stpaul.lib.mn.us

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 19:57:15 -0500
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <TWATTS@EXODUS.VALPO.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Italians

Can someone confirm the following about the Italian Army?

Before Mussolini ordered WW II, he ordered the third regiment removed from
every infantry division and used them to create new divisions.  The result
was to increase the Italian Army by 1/3, on paper.  To make up for it, he
incorporated Blackshirt battalions into the regular army divisions.

I'm without a source, so maybe Joe, Terry or Mike or someone else with
access to a source (or a better memory than mine) can confirm this.
TIA
Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 21:13:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 4 OCT 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
WEDNESDAY, 4 OCTOBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): In the Kurile Islands, a B-24 weatheraborts a
photo run off Matsuwa Island; 4 B-25s bomb a freighter and a barge off
Shimushu Island; 15-17 fighters intercept and the B-25s score 1 victory.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 8 P-47s damage approaches to a
bridge between Myitkyina and Bhamo; 16 P-47s hit the town of Palwesho; 4
others hit small towns S of Bhamo, including Man The and Hantet.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 5 B-25s hit Hsinantien and areas N
of Chefang; 80+ P-40s and P-51s continue to attack targets of opportunity
during armed reconnaissance over areas of China S of the Yangtze River; 20+
fighter-bombers hit buildings, troops, and river shipping in the Paoching
area.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  AIRBORNE OPERATIONS (IX Troop Carrier Command): The 306th Troop Carrier
Squadron, 442d Troop Carrier Group, moves from Weston Zoyland, England to
Peray, France with C-47s.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 664: 5 B-24s and 4 B-17s
drop leaflets in the Low Countries, France and Germany during the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Bombers drop leaflets in the Metz
and Saint-Die, France and Saarburg, Germany areas; fighters support the US
First and Third Armies in W Germany and E France, escort B-26s, and fly armed
reconnaissance in forward areas, attacking rail and military targets. In
Belgium, HQ 365th Fighter Group and the 386th, 387th and 388th Fighter
Squadrons move from Juvincourt, France to Chievres with P-47s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 327 B-17s and B-24s, with
fighter escort, bomb the Munich W, Germany marshalling yard. In Italy, around
400 other heavy bombers, attack the rail line in the Trento-Mezzaselva area
covering 50+ miles (80+ km) of the Brenner route, Aviano Airfield, Avisio
viaduct, and railroad and road bridges at Pinzano al Tagliamento, Pordenone,
Latisana, Casarsa della Delizia, Mezzocorona, Ora, and San Dona di Piave. In
Greece, 39 P-51s strafe Tatoi, Kalamaki, and Eleusis Airfields. Other P-51s
escort Mediterranean Allied Tactical Air Force (MATAF) C-47s and fly
reconnaissance.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, weather restricts medium
bombers to attacks on 2 bridges at Bistagno and Villafranca d'Asti; fighter-
bombers closely support ground forces fighting in the Loiano-Quinzanod'Oglio-
Sassoleone areas, and hit communications N of the battle areas; HQ 47th
Bombardment Group (Light) and the 84th, 85th and 86th Bombardment Squadrons
(Light) move from Follonica to Rosignano Airfield with A-20s; HQ 79th Fighter
Group and the 86th and 87th Fighter Squadrons move from Southern France to
Iesi with P-47s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): B-24s from Saipan Island attack shipping W of
Iwo Jima Island and bomb airfields, the radio station, buildings, and area
targets on Marcus, Pagan, and Iwo Jima Islands. P-47s hit gun positions,
beach defenses, buildings, and the wharf area on Pagan Island. B-24s from the
Marshall Islands bomb the airfield on Moen Island, Truk Atoll.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: On Celebes Island,
B-25s bomb Sidate and Bolaang-oeki. On Halmahera Island, P-40s and B-25s
attack Galela and Kaoe Airfields. B-25s and A-20s on a shipping sweep bomb
town and port area of Amboina on Ambon Island, hit a wharf at Halong on
Celebes Island, and attack shipping and shore targets of opportunity at
various points. In New Guinea, HQ 403d Troop Carrier Group moves from Los
Negros Island, Admiralty Islands to Biak Island; the 13th Troop Carrier
Squadron, 403d Troop Carrier Group, based on Espiritu Santo Island, New
Hebrides Islands, ceases operating from Los Negros Island and begins
operating from Wakde Island with C-47s; the 63d Troop Carrier Squadron, 403d
Troop Carrier Group, based on Biak Island, begins operating from Wakde Island
with C-47s. In the Moluccas Islands, the 35th Fighter Squadron, 8th Fighter
Group, moves from Owi, Schouten Islands to Morotai Island with P-38s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

04/0116Z OCT

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 21:33:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: [INF] USAAF 2 OCT 44

 >Jack McKillop noted B-17 bombing a FORD (!) motor vehicle plant in Cologne
 >Germany on this date.  Does anyone know if there were many American-owned
 >manufacturing plants in Europe, contributing to the Nazi war effort?  I
 >always thought American-owned plants in foreign countries were a
 >phenomenon of the post-war era.
 >Tim J. Watts
 >Valparaiso University

Tim,
You got me on this one.  I checked my references and found that
from Aug to Nov 44, the Eighth and Fifteenth Air Forces and RAF
Bomber Command waged a inconclusive offensive against German
ordnance depots, tank assembly plants and motor vehicle factories i
the hope that the German army could be denied heavy equipment as
they reorganized behind the Siegfried Line.  Eight key tank
plants: Henschel und Sohn at Kassel, Maschinenfabrik at St
Valentine in Austria, Krupp Grusonwerke at Magdeburg, Daimler-Benz
and Alkett in the vicinity of Berlin and 3 assault-gun factories
in Brunswick and Berlin were all hit.  Other targets were
automobile and truck factories and 7 plants were attacked: Ford at
Cologne, Saurer at Vienna, Daimler-Benz at Gaggenau, Bussing at
Brunswick, Borgward at Bremen, Adam Opel near Berlin, and
Daimler-Benz at Mannheim.  The largeest ordnance depots at Ulm,
Hannover, Vienna, Berlin, Magdeburg, Kassel, Ingolstadt, Munich,
Breslau, Bielefeld and others were also hit.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 21:41:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Re: WEAP: F-82

 >How was the P-82 managed? What happened, for example when the right pilot
 >wanted to go left, and the left pilot wanted to go right? Was one pilot
 >designated the lead pilot? And what if he got disabled in flight?
 >
 >Maybe I'm confused, but I cannot for the life of me figure out why such
 >a craft was designed outside of a barroom...
 >
 >(I know I show my ignorance, there HAD to be a reason!)

 >Steven E. Pudlo  - sep@trctc.commnet.edu |"Life may be a drag BUT
 >STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
 >Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
 >574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
 >Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..

The P-82 was developed based up an Advanced Development Objective
issued on 20 Feb 42.  The ADO of 1942 responded to the AAF's 1941
air war plans that "urged developement of special escort planes [even
thought] bombers for the moment could rely on current interceptor-
type models for support, especially the P-47."  This new fighter
escort was to penetrate deep into enemy territory; it's immediate
role would be to escort B-29s to Japan.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 20:45:46 -0500
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <TWATTS@EXODUS.VALPO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Italy in WW2, my $0.02--part III

Greg-
It's not about the Italians in Russia, but are you familiar with THE
HOLLOW LEGIONS?  I don't have an author, but it's a history of the Italian
attack on Greece in 1940.  You might also want to look at Riccio, ITALIAN
TANKS AND FIGHTING VEHICLES OF WORLD WAR II (1975).
Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 22:31:18 -0400
From:    David Rising <drising@ACS.BU.EDU>
Subject: TACT:Battle of the Bulge (was Re: TACT:Could they have won ?

On Mon, 3 Oct 1994, William Lippert wrote:

>    The Ardennes Offensive probably did hasten their defeat.  But, without
> the benefit of hindsight, what would you do if you were Hitler, faced with
> a superior enemy on both sides?  I'm sorry to those people who don't like
> if questions, but they are essential for a full understanding of why certain
> decisions were made and events came to pass.  Rommel, when faced with the
> British in North Africa driving him almost out of Italy, counterattacked.
> This is what made him the Desert Fox - striking when least expected.
>       All together, I found Hitler's offensive very admirable.  To begin
> with, he clearly caught the Allies by surprise.  Second, that although it
> was ultimately to fail, it did restore morale to the German troops for
> a while.  And third, I might question whether or not it speeded up the
> end of the Reich.  The troops and equipment would probably have been
> encircled, destroyed by the air, or just chewed up on the Eastern Front.
> It really might have only made the difference of a month or two.

William, I think you're mixing apples and oranges when you compare
Rommel's desert attacks to Hitlers plan in 1944. While they say that
hindsight is 20/20, I think it is pretty clear that Hitler's plan had no
chance of success (as most of his Generals at the time thought). Even if
he had the gas/ammunition/men/etc to drive a wedge between the British and
American troops, he had underestimated the strength of their alliance.
Rommel's attacks (after El Al.) were more reminiscent of the Russian
troops attacking Napoleon as he tried to retreat from Moscow.
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 13:20:34 +0010
From:    Jeff Rixon <RIXONJ@TOPAZ.CQU.EDU.AU>
Subject: 12th ss panzer division germany

i am a wargammer and require details of what combat vehicles were used by this unit from d-day to falaise pocket. thanks for any assistance. please e-mail direct to rixonj@topaz.cqu.edu.au

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 2 Oct 1994 to 3 Oct 1994
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 69 messages totalling 2466 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. german 12th ss panzer division
  2. Italy in WW2, my $0.02--part II (4)
  3. TACT:Downfall (3)
  4. Switzerland
  5. GEN: references/topics
  6. WEAP: F-82 (2)
  7. INF: 50 Years Ago - 05-OCT-1944
  8. WEAP:  Eclectic Stablemates
  9. Switzerland in WWII (2)
 10. POL:Hiroshima (2)
 11. POL:Hiroshima - why implosion, just curious (4)
 12. Invasion of Crete -- Operation Merkur (3)
 13. USAF Feature
 14. Untold Stories f/ABTF, Pt. 2 (2)
 15. Hiroshima et. al.
 16. WEAP: Eric Brown -Reply (2)
 17. SS and SA (6)
 18. WWII-L Digest - 2 Oct 1994 to 3 Oct 1994 (2)
 19. Italy in WW2--Regina Marina (cont.) (4)
 20. Italy in WW2, my $0.02--part III (2)
 21. TRIVIA:Czech Army
 22. WEAP:aircraft comparisons
 23. HIST
 24. HIST -- Armed SS
 25. Egypt
 26. TAC: ?'Could still loose the war?
 27. TACT:Could they have won ? (2)
 28. Gustav Geraet (2)
 29. SS in combat (4)
 30. WEAP: F-82 -Reply (2)
 31. German Military Vehicles
 32. ? WW2 Airplane Crash in CBI
 33. Rumanians in WW2, runners, etc.
 34. [INF] USAAF 2 OCT 44
 35. WEAP: Heinkel He-111Z
 36. [INF] USAAF 5 OCT 44
 37. ITALY IN WW2, MY $
 38. WEAP: Heinkel He-111Z -Reply

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 14:02:47 +0010
From:    Jeff Rixon <RIXONJ@TOPAZ.CQU.EDU.AU>
Subject: german 12th ss panzer division

i am a wargammer and require details of the combat vehicles and heavy weapons used by the 12th ss panzer div from d-day to falaise pocket. thanks for any assistance. please e-mail direct rixonj@topaz.cqu.edu.au

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 21:59:01 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Italy in WW2, my $0.02--part II

Seldom acknowledged these days, if the fact that the Italian Navy in WW2
had a good fighting reputation. Probably because of a long naval tradition
long long before there was any Mussolini...
        For instance, the Italian submarines were notably agressive in the
Mediteranean Sea, especially when attacked by (usually RAF) aircraft. The
German U-Boats, acknowledging their crew's conisderable bravery otherwise,
had a policy of immediately doing a crash-dive when attacked by planes.
However, the Italian Navy had orders to stay and fight on the surface.
Which they always did, causing no end of RAF aircraft casualties.
        Less honorably, perhaps, was the rather nasty reputation of the
Italiam Motor Torpedo Units -- acronym, "MAS.  For sosme reason, MAS was given
the dirtiest jobs of counter-espionage and anti-Resistance. The naval unit
were assiduous torturers and murderers of Italian resistants, or suspected
Partisans.
        By the way, it seems am unpleasant echo of this Italian MAS
activity lives on in present-day Arhentina. Some of the worst atrocities
and murders against "enemies of the state" are committed by an outfit
call\


hiding behind the title, "Naval Mechanics School". The chief torturer of
the Argentine Naval Mechanics School, accused of numerous atrocities in
his own country against enemies of President Galtieri's Junta, was
captured by the BRitish during the Falklands War. Sweden immediately
asked for the guy for trial on charges of murdering a Swedish nun. He
was immune, though, under International Law which forbids a POW being
handed over to a third nation. The British reluctantly had to let the
SOB slip back to Argentina at war's end.

        But I digress.
                        o o
                         "
                         U

Regards -- Sidney Allinson.




--

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 18:35:57 +0200
From:    "A.Bouis" <dev24@BOS.WTK.SURESNES.MARBEN.FR>
Subject: TACT:Downfall

Thanks for your opinions (and thanks, Cassidy, for your posts on German scientists... I hope you did not have to type it all).

Brad, thanks as well for your reply. I would like to answer your points :

You are right to note that the Germans could hardly have reversed the situation with Russian armies already on their soil. Though most German industry was concentrated in the West, around the Ruhr. Some eastern regions like Silesia were important, but the Russians did not reach them until the Spring of '45. As for the Central European allies, they afforded little help after 1942, except natural resources. But my contention was that the Germans could have done something BEFORE losing the oil.
I agree with you that armies win wars, but even German tank production approached Soviet production in 1944.
With a great increase in quality compared to 1942, all tanks bearing at least the 75mm L48 gun.
Is there reason to think Speer would not have been able to increase tank production even more, had he not been compelled to concentrate on producing hordes of fighters ?

The failures of 1941 were largely due to bad planning and preparation. Those of Stalingrad, to inferior war production. By 1944 Germany had gone to a total war effort, and had mostly adapted to the Russian winter conditions.
Regarding 1941-42, it is often said that Russia defeated alone the entire might of Germany. While I have the highest respect for the courage of the Russian soldier, forced to fight with his back to the Kremlin, I have some doubts about this argument. I would like to have a compiled figure for the tank and aircraft losses caused by England during this period, and would be surprised if it were that small. The fighting in Africa, over French skies and on the Atlantic certainly took a heavy toll on German war production. Now, this is certainly an argument in the air until strongly supported by figures.

Regarding peace overtures, all I have read  (in Alan Clark's "Barbarossa") is negociations is that in 1943 Molotov and Goebbels planned a secret meeting to open negociations. It misfired when Stalin refused to consider German demands for a frontier on the Dnieper river. I had not read about the "Bulgarian embassador", and found your mails very interesting.

I agree very much with George Lippert that though the Ardennes offensive failed completely, it may have been a wise decision of Hitler's to launch it (however little wisdom had to do with the Fuhrer's reasoning). This is supported by Liddell Hart too. All a slowly losing player can do is gamble very high.

Another interesting piece of thought advanced by Alan Clark ("Barbarossa") is that Hitler WANTED the Russians to advance faster than the Western allies. Guderian consistently complains that Hitler failed to give him the resources to stop Stalin. According to Clark Guderian never understood the aims of his master, and the two men worked in divergent directions. Hitler -still according to Clark- hoped that threat of a Russian occupation of Germany would shatter the communist-capitalist alliance, which would save him just as was saved Frederick II. Clearly, Hitler had no concern for the post-war fate of his citizens.

Apres moi le deluge.

Arnaud.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 07:07:18 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Re: Switzerland

     In defense of the Swiss, they were assiduous in the protection of
     their neutrality from air incursions by either side, to the limit that
     their equipment could manage.

     The Swiss interdicted, and attacked both Axis and Allied aircraft that
     over flew their country, and pilots from both sides ended up being
     interned for the duration.

     The swap of 6 BF-109G's for the destruction of the ME-110 seems to me
     to be a simple national interest decision.  It had little impact on
     their neutral position, but provided the country an increased ability
     to defend its borders.


        Steve L. New                     .............................
        Weapon System Manager            .............................
        Battalion Countermine Set        ............ /\ .............
        U.S. Army TACOM AMSTA-IM-FR1D    ............/  \.............
        DSN: 786-5403  FAX: 786-7788     ............    .............
        EMAIL  NEWST@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL   ............    .............

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 11:41:40 +0200
From:    "A.Bouis" <dev24@BOS.WTK.SURESNES.MARBEN.FR>
Subject: GEN: references/topics

I have to agree that discussing without quoting sources is regrettable, and detrimental to credibility, and every effort should be done towards giving references.
However, I hope you understand that some of us are not comfortably at home or near a library, and have to quote from memory, or never participate to the list at all.
I write this in reaction to the newly-appended passage in the list code, which states that those not citing references will end up with "an egg on their faces".
Please understand many of us do not have their sources at hand (soon about to change in my case when I can use my modem at home and quote from my books), and refrain from aggressivity.

I personally do not see with a very good eye recent trends towards forbidding subjects.
After all, no one has to participate in a flagged discussion if he finds it not worth of interest. We are in places of freedom where tolerance must exist, as long the "Golden Rule" is respected:  Politeness, courtesy, roughly staying in the WWII era, and not forbidding our flags :-)

Just one opinion,

Cordially,
Arnaud.

Silence is the best part of contempt.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 07:33:07 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: WEAP: F-82

     > How was the P-82 managed? What happened, for example when the right
     > pilot wanted to go left, and the left pilot wanted to go right? Was
     > one pilot designated the lead pilot? And what if he got disabled in
     > flight?


     The F-82 was originally designed as a very long range escort fighter
     intended to support B-29, and eventually B-36 bombing missions.

     In this configuration, the portside cockpit had a complete suite of
     instruments, while the starboard cockpit held only rudimentary flight
     controls.  The second pilot was intended as a human autopilot to spell
     the senior pilot during long flights.

     In the event, the capture of islands close enough to the Japanese home
     islands to allow P-51Ds and P47Ns to perform escort duties made the
     long range escort mission obsolete.

     Subsequent roles played by the F-82 included photo-recon and night
     fighting, and the aircraft was certainly modified accordingly, yet I
     believe the starboard cockpit maintained those basic flight controls
     so that the second pilot could spell the first during long missions.



        Steve L. New                     .............................
        Weapon System Manager            .............................
        Battalion Countermine Set        ............ /\ .............
        U.S. Army TACOM AMSTA-IM-FR1D    ............/  \.............
        DSN: 786-5403  FAX: 786-7788     ............    .............
        EMAIL  NEWST@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL   ............    .............

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 04:39:34 -0700
From:    John Davis <jbd@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 05-OCT-1944

On 05-OCT-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - Units of the US XIX Corps are advancing towards Geilenkirchen.
Bad weather postpones the attack of the US XII Corps towards Schmidt.

Eastern Front - The 1st Baltic Front opens a powerful offensive towards East
Prussia and the Baltic, with the goal of bottling up the German Army Group
North. The Russians land on Saaremaa Island in the Baltic. The 2nd and 3rd
Baltic Fronts are left to continue the offensive towards Riga. The 2nd Ukraine
Front begins the offensive against southeast Hungary, aiming for Szeged and
Budapest.

Italian Front - The offensive towards La Spezia is resumed.

Peleliu - Operations are temporarily slowed down by the heavy rains as well as
the relief operations of the 7th Marines on Mount Umurbrogol.

Greece - British forces land on the Greek mainland and enter Patras.

The Homefront
-------------
World Series - The Cardinals take the second game of the series beating the
Browns 3-2 in 11 innings.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "Facts On File Yearbook 1944,
Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.netcom.com in directory /pub/jbd or
through the WWW at URL: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis     jbd@netcom.com      WWW: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/jbd/ww2.html
Cary, N.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 07:54:22 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: WEAP:  Eclectic Stablemates

     >Also for Yugoslavia in April '41 (Me-109s and Hurricanes on the same
     >side)

     >Mike Yaklich



     Mike,

     You're welcome.

     Oh, yea, the Turks flew FW-190s and Spitfires together.



        Steve L. New                     .............................
        Weapon System Manager            .............................
        Battalion Countermine Set        ............ /\ .............
        U.S. Army TACOM AMSTA-IM-FR1D    ............/  \.............
        DSN: 786-5403  FAX: 786-7788     ............    .............
        EMAIL  NEWST@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL   ............    .............

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 08:31:46 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Switzerland in WWII

On Mon, 3 Oct 1994 14:10:35 GMT-6 Robert T. Moore said:
>The crew was sent back home by train in
>civilian clothes and were returned to flight status. The Swiss were
>still given the 6 Me-109's.

This would appear to be a violation of neutrality during wartime.  Weren't
Allied fliers interned?  If so, weren't the Swiss obliged to intern the
Germans as well?  I ask for informational reasons, ie, what was the
situation & the applicable international rule of law.

ken koester
maint2@ers.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 08:31:15 EDT
From:    William Lippert <WL1958A@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Italy in WW2, my $0.02--part II

On Mon, 3 Oct 1994 16:37:45 EDT Henry Sirotin said:
>Did the pre-war SS really have no equal in Europe? Royal Marines? And  what
>do we know of elite Soviet units in this period?
>
>Henry Sirotin

   The pre-war SS was "nothing" but the elite of the party.  The regular
Wermacht heavily resisted the idea that anyone but they were the protectors
of the Reich's security.  Thus, they were the only armed services.  The role
of the SS was to ensure internal security, especially after the SA was
disempowered after the "Night of the Long Knives" in which Ernst Rhoem
and several hundred or so others were purged by Himmler, Goering, and HItler.
   The Waffen SS didn't come into being unitl the offensive in the East -
and even then they were attached to regular army command.  It was not until
matters started to look bleak that Himmler was able to remove the Waffen-SS
from the Werhmacht command structure.  Incidentally, the chief role of the
SS, besides Reich security, was Reich occupation.
   The Waffen SS became a fighting army after Hitler lost faith in the regular
army.  They did not perform particularly brilliantly, but fought well and to
the death, following Hitler's orders.  The regular army units would usually
retreat when hard pressed.
   So to directly answer the question at hand, the pre-war SS probably didn't
have any equal, just as the Nazi organization and regime had no equal.  I
am not positive, but I do not think that there was anyone in particular who
upheld Stalin's power, other than everyone who wanted to survive.  The Royal
Marines are not a valid comparison because they were a dedicated military
combat unit.
   Hope that clears matters up.

William Lippert
The American University

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 08:39:45 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: POL:Hiroshima

On Mon, 3 Oct 1994 15:43:32 EDT William Lippert said:
>    The making of a successful atomic weapon is no easy task.  One has to
>have precise wiring lengths so that the explosive around the U-235 is
>detonated at the same moment to achieve uniform implosion.  These weapons
>were made in an era without the aid of digital measuring devices, remember.
>And then, of course, the explosive itself had to be uniformly distributed.
>It had to be the right quantity, lest it explode rather than implode (I
>think).  In sum, the triggering device was not easy to make.

I believe you are describing the plutonium bomb, not the U-235.  The former
indeed required implosion & extremely precise triggering.  The latter
simply required a reliable & powerful "gun" to smash two sub-critical masses
together.  Enhancements are possible--neutron reflectors & accelerators,
for example--but the U-235 bomb presented comparatively few problems
beyond that of enriching the uranium in the first place.  One remarks that
no one saw a need to test the U-235 bomb, but they did have to test the
plutonium one.

ken koester
maint2@ers.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 14:11:39 GMT
From:    Johannes van Vuren <VANVUREN_J@SND02.PCR.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: POL:Hiroshima - why implosion, just curious

Just curious: why does a plutonium bomb need the implosion type detonator?
Why could it not work with the gun-type? Alternatively, I suppose the u235
bomb would have worked with an implosion detonator.
Many thanks,
Johannes van Vuren,
Canterbury, England.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 07:40:56 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Invasion of Crete -- Operation Merkur

Hello, Derek and Brad!

Here goes with some sources on the Crete invasion.

Nazi Victory: Crete 1941 by David Thomas
German Airborne Troops by Roger Edwards
Hunters from the Sky: The German Parachute Corps, 1940-1945 by Charles
Whiting
Airborne by Charles MacDonald


The first two are hardback with the other 2 being paper.

If you wish, I will be happy to post to you the names of the men with
whom I have corresponded who were there. I have a very good
relationship to Mr. Erich Beine who was with the Fallschirmtruppen
from the beginning to the end. I have visited him every time I have
been to Europe beginning in 1981 and I try to go every two years, and
we have talked at length about the people whom he knew and the
operations he was personally involved with. Mr. Beine reached the
rank of Major and participated in many of the major employment of the
parachute troops during the war.

Hope this has been of interest.

Thanks for the inquiry.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 14:57:17 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVS1.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: POL:Hiroshima - why implosion, just curious

On Tue, 4 Oct 1994, Johannes van Vuren wrote:

> Just curious: why does a plutonium bomb need the implosion type detonator?
> Why could it not work with the gun-type? Alternatively, I suppose the u235
> bomb would have worked with an implosion detonator.

For a bomb, you have to assemble a critical mass quickly. A critical mass
is one with a growth factor (usually written k) for the neutrons that is
larger than 1. If k is smaller than 1, any chain reaction dies out; for k
larger than 1, the chain reactions increase until the assembly is blown
apart: The numbers of neutrons then increases exponentially, there are
more and more chain reactions, and more and more heat is generated.

During the assembly, there is a point where k=1 is exceeded, and the chain
reaction begins to create heat. However, for a k that is only slightly
larger than 1, the heat generation is too slow --- before any explosive
power is generated, the bomb will melt down or be blown apart: the thing
will fizzle. So you want to reach a large k; the higher, the more
efficient the bomb will be. (I don't know anything about bomb design, but
the theoretical limit in U235 must be over 2). You have to do this in a
very short time.

Plutonium is 'multiplies' neutrons faster than U235, so a faster assembly
of the critical mass is needed. The three-dimensional implosion process is
much more effective than the one-dimensional 'gun' type assembly to
achieve this. Of course is is also technologically more demanding, but
this is outweighed by the easier production of bomb-quality plutonium.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 09:56:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: USAF Feature

THIS IS FROM THE AIR FORCE NEWS AGENCY



     This is a special "Looking Back at World War II" features
message published by the Air Force News Agency, 203 Norton St.,
Kelly AFB, TX, 78241-6105.
                            &    &    &
                            &    &    &
                            &    &    &
107.  Coming of Age in WW II
108.  POW memories
109.  Bataan Death March
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
107.  Coming of age in WW II
by TSgt. David P. Masko
Air Force News Service Features
     In a sidewalk cafe down the street from the Champs-Elysees,
Arnold Franco sits at the same table he sat at 50 years ago, and
orders a 1944 vintage French wine to toast his return to Paris.
     "I got some reception... hugs from pretty girls, spontaneous
applause as I sat down at the Cafe de la Paix," said Franco, who as
an Army Air Corps private first class spent his 21st birthday in
Paris on Sept. 27, 1944.
     "When our unit got into Paris it was a celebration.  I'll never
forget it, bands playing the songs 'Dixie' and 'La Marseillaise' over
and over again.  They were just happy to have Americans in town
again," he said.
     Just one month earlier, on Aug. 26, French General Charles de
Gaulle returned to Paris and joined a ceremonial parade freeing the
capital after a bitter struggle from Nazi occupation.  Also on that
day, American troops, including members of the Eighth and Ninth Air
Forces, marched up the Champs Elysees.
     Lately, Franco has been rewinding the clock in preparation for
his return.  He's been telling his family and friends about it, and
even started wearing his old World War II Eisenhower "Ike" jacket.
The jacket fits, and he likes it so much that he wears it all the time.
     Franco's life during World War II offers a window into the
"coming of age" of thousands of young men who were drafted out
of high school or college and sent off to what has been termed "the
most awesome holocaust in the history of mankind."  When the
six-year war ended, more than 35 million people lay dead.
     "Even though I was from New York City, I and most
Americans at the time were hicks in their own way.  What we got
to see and experience in England, France and the rest of Europe
was a real education.  It was marvelous," Franco said.
     "So, by the time I got to Paris in September 1944, I was already
what you might call worldly.  I had picked up the language and my
buddies would say, 'Hey Franco, tell her I like her.'  I made a lot of
dates for them and me.  We all sort of fell in love."
     Apart from his many war stories, Franco is not shy when it
comes to his amorous adventures.  "Hitting the beach on D-Day,
fighting our way across France and then, finally, Paris, I became a
man, literally and in every other way."
     From the vantage point of someone with a long view, Franco's
50-year quest to return to the place of his youth is not unlike
thousands of other veterans who made the same trek back to
Europe this summer.
     Recalling when one was under a constant hail of fire may sound
more like dreaded memories than happy ones, but for Franco,
World War II was the best of times.
     "In a way I felt my life climaxed at 21, Franco said.  "Even
though I've had an active life, married with four children,
everything else has been an anti-climax.  There's nothing I've done
in my life that's been as exciting and significant as what we did
there."
     The road back for Franco began during 50th anniversary
ceremonies for D-Day, June 4.  "At first, I didn't know if I should
return.  But I owed it to myself.  It was like a 50th college
reunion," recalls Franco, smiling as he stares at the coast of
Normandy from the ocean liner Queen Elizabeth 2.
     For all the technology and power, the war was won -- and lost --
not by machines but by men, Franco said.  "It was men like those
in my intelligence group called 'the special code-breaking unit."
     After D-Day, Franco and about 80 other "code-breakers" were
assigned to Ninth Air Force Operations at forward locations (known
as Advanced Air Ground Positions) in France.
     Franco said they worked around the clock trying to unscramble
German message.  Enemy war diaries commented eloquently on the effects
of the almost ceaseless interdiction by the Allies' intelligence
sources.
     "Intel was the heart of the operation," he said.  "We wanted to
tell our headquarters where the German were moving.  After D-Day, we
tracked the movement of the Luftwaffe as we pushed them out of France
and up into Holland and Germany."
     In September 1944, the Allied air offensive continued to be very
destructive.  Altogether, 112,400 tons of bombs were dropped by the
heavy bombers, one of the highest one-month total of the war.  The
Luftwaffe, the aerial enemy of the Eighth and Ninth Air Forces, was
hobbled by the fall of 1944.
     Thanks to the "code breakers," Army Air Forces fighter and bomber
patrols were able to establish an early "beachhead patrol" after D-Day
and until VE-Day in May 1944, he said.
     "I remember, our commander, Major General (Hoyt S.) Vandenberg
came to see us, and to thank us for helping to stop German paratroop
operations along the coast.  Vandenberg told us without the ability to
replenish supplies for their troops in the fields, we had helped to win
the war in France."
     Franco's "Ike" jacket displays the presidential citation --
authorized by Vandenberg -- for Ninth Air Force intelligence people
who helped spot enemy movements, thus preventing them from becoming a
real threat to the Allies.
     While events such as his unit's drive across France and his
"coming of age" in Paris are interesting.  Franco's most conspicuous
story is like a plot from a movie script.  He claims he predicted the
Battle of the Bulge, the last great battle of the war in Europe; a
fight in which American casualties totaled 81,000.
     "On Dec. 13, 1944, just three days before the Battle of the Bulge
began, we broke a message that the Germans were notifying their
anti-aircraft batteries not to fire at a certain time at night.
Obviously they wanted to move their own aircraft into position during
this time," Franco said.
     "We reported it to headquarters, but they didn't move on it.  I
think we had the first idea that the Germans were up to something."
     In fact, Franco declared, because of a hesitation on the Allies
part, English-speaking German soldiers -- dressed in American uniforms
-- were able to slip through the fog in the forested Ardennes region of
Belgium and infiltrate Allied lines.
     "There is a huge difference between military intelligence now and
the way it was during World War II, he says.  "Back then we had to rely
a little more on our instincts."
     Asked about the difference in a military 50 years hence, Franco
says "viva la difference'... I wouldn't trade my World War II memories
for anything."
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
108. POW memories
by A1C Deana Silvey
     BARKSDALE AFB, Louisiana (AFNS Features) -- Dates didn't mean
anything.  Why should they?  If you knew what day it was you'd only be
counting them, making passing the time just that much harder.
     That's why former prisoner of war Richard Beadle can't quite
remember the exact date he was captured by the Germans near the
France-German border, or the day he escaped from the POW camp.  He does
remember it was the middle of August 1944 when he was captured and
escaped in March or April of 1945.
     "We were in reserve behind the infantry who were fighting.  A
captain asked for three men who would to try to rescue an injured
lieutenant in the combat zone.  I knew I'd be risking my life, but I
volunteered," said Beadle, then a brave 21-year-old Army soldier.
     The three unarmed men ran right into a German machine gun nest.
One of the men screamed, "Let's run for it."
     "I knew if we ran, we'd be dead.  So I said, 'Let's surrender, it's
our only chance,'" Beadle said.
     So they did.
     The German soldiers put their three captives in a squad car, where
they met more POWs.  They were then transported on a train and made at
least two more stops at temporary camps.  Beadle ended up on the other
side of Berlin at camp 3-C, a camp segregated by rank.  He was an NCO.
     NCOs didn't have to work, only privates.  "I don't know if the
work or the waiting would have been harder," Beadle said.  Instead of
working the NCOs sat around all day, usually playing cards.  The cards
were their only way of battling boredom.
     "We received cigarettes once a month and we used them as money.
We learned later how to trade cigarettes with the Russian (prisoners)
for a loaf of bread.  Someone decided to get smart one time and not
pitch the cigarettes over the fence after receiving the bread.  From
then on it took a half hour to make the trade, battling back and forth
over who would throw their item first."
     The freezing weather hit the men the hardest, according to Beadle.
     "It was a cold winter.  There were 30 men to a one-room shack.
There were shelves on the walls with straw on them for beds.  The only
heat we had was a pot-belly stove burning coal where we would all
gather around."
     The men weren't offered the luxury of showers.  "Showers, you must
be kidding.  We got a shower when it rained."
     Food was also scarce.  "For breakfast we received one slice of
black bread, one cup of imitation coffee made from acorns, and a bowl
of barley soup.  I think the bread had sawdust in it."
     For lunch they received a piece of horse meat that was sometimes
blue.  But that didn't bother Beadle or the others.  "When you're
hungry, everything tastes good," he explained.  And for supper, another
bowl of soup.  "It was a low-calories diet, I would say.  I joined the
service at 160 pounds and came home at 90 pounds."
     "We were lucky, though, we were treated fairly.  We had
Switzerland Red Cross members who came around the camps making sure we
were treated according to the Geneva Conference agreement, and we
were."
     In spring 1945 the Germans tried to move the POWs to keep ahead of
the advancing Russian Army.  But the move came too late.  The Russians
reached the marching column and attacked, then stopped when they saw
who they were shooting.  But many of the prisoners were killed or
wounded, while some of the POWs were able to escape.  Beadle was one of
them.
     He traveled by train, wagon and foot.  He also recalls traveling
with a man from Arkansas, who had had half of his tongue shot off, and
another man who later died from shrapnel wounds in his back.  "I tried
to nurse them the best I could.  But they didn't travel for long, and
it ended up being just me," he said.
     Beadle was picked up by the Red Army in what today is part of
Poland and placed in a detention camp for refugees.  But the urge to be
free was strong, so he didn't say at the camp long.
     "One night one the guards, who were all older feeble men because
they needed all of the young men to fight, got drunk.  I hit him over
the head with a piece of wood and jumped out the window and ran for
it," he said.
     Luckily, while on the run again Beadle ran into an American Army
Air Corps sergeant, in the area after crashing in his B-17.
     "He took me to a hotel were they were staying.  I remember one of
the men, Lieutenant Ball, from Dallas.  The crews, who I think were
from Eighth Air Force, were staying in the hotel after their B-17 had
crash landed after bombing the oil fields in Yugoslavia," he said.
     "Some Russians tracked me down to the hotel and came to get me.
But one the captains pulled out a .45 and the Russians left."
     Beadle lived it up for the next three days.  "They fed me banquet
style," he said.  The party ended when Beadle and the crew left for an
Army Air Corps base in southern Russia, Poltava AB.  From there he
traveled by American C-47 to Teheran, Iran, and Casablanca, Algeria.
His mode of travel was to introduce himself to aircrews who would then
offer him a ride.  He hit Newfoundland and New York before catching a
train home to New Orleans.
     He didn't even think to call his family.  He just wanted to get
home.  And he finally made it to Reserve, Louisiana, his home.  "I
probably should have called.  My parents had no idea whether I was dead
or alive.  But they were happy to see me," he said.
     After a few days, he was on the road again, this time to
Shreveport to see the woman he met and fell in love with while he was
in basic training.  He later married here, and went to trade school
under the G.I. Bill.
     "I loved the Army and I would do it all again," Beadle said.
"Being a POW was hard, but I probably wouldn't have survived throughout
the war if I wasn't captured.  I was one of the lucky ones."
( Silvey is assigned to the 2d Bomb Wing public affairs office,
Barksdale AFB)
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
                             &    &    &
109.  Bataan Death March
TSgt. Patrick McKenna
     TRAVIS AFB, California (AFNS Features) -- Retired Chief Master
Sergeant Spencer Dukes isn't the type of man to hold a grudge.  Despite
having spent 36 months in solitary confinement and being brutalized by
his Japanese captors, this World War II ex-POW and survivor of the
Bataan Death March holds no animosity toward his former enemy.
     "I have nothing against the Japanese people," Dukes said. "Hell,
most of them weren't even around back then."
     Dukes as well as other former prisoners of war and the families
of those still missing in action were honored during the recent
National POW/MIA Recognition Day retreat ceremony at Travis AFB.
     The chief, who has worn a military uniform for more than 55 years,
was the ceremony's guest speaker. He told the audience "We (former
POWs) don't want sympathy or pity. We just want to be recognized for
what we did, which was get caught."
     Another serviceman who got caught was the late Lieutenant Ludovico
Beltran, a member of the Philippine Scouts and later the U.S. Army.
     He too survived the Bataan Death March, which killed more than
1,100 Americans and 3,000 Filipinos.
     During the ceremony, Beltran's widow Felisa accepted the
posthumous award of the POW Medal from Brigadier General Howard J.
Ingersoll, 60th Airlift Wing commander.
     Ingersoll said he commended the sacrifices and determination of
all Americans imprisoned during its wars and saluted the families of
MIAs and former POWs.
     Dukes has been participating in these tributes since 1980. He
estimates he travels 9,000 to 11,000 miles (14,484 to 17,702 km)
annually to talk about his experiences; this is his seventh trip so far
this year. "I want people to remember," he said.
     Chief Dukes will never forget. He said about the Bataan Death
March, "I went from a 23-year-old master sergeant to a 40-year-old
in 30 days. You learn or you get killed.
     "The Japanese Army were killing and beheading men just for
falling behind or out of the march. They'd kill you just to be doing
something.  There wasn't any rhyme or reason to it."
     Because Dukes' father was an Army colonel, he was treated as a
political prisoner and bounced from one camp to the next, including the
Philippines, China and Korea, where he spent 36 months in solitary
confinement.
     His last camp was located 27 miles (43 km) northeast of Hiroshima,
and Dukes and 40 other POWs were inside the compound when the Enola Gay
dropped the big one -- the atomic bomb.
     "We had no idea what it was or what was going on," he said.  "When
we got back to the United States, we were isolated from the rest of the
POWs and treated by doctors who had never seen a case of radiation
sickness."
     The chief said he now has cancer in his arm as a result of his
exposure. Once back in the states, Dukes was hospitalized for 8 months
to build weight on his emaciated 89-pound frame.
     "I ate Gerber's baby food, Jello and ice cream for several months.
The first hamburger I had after being released made me sick as a dog. I
shouldn't have gotten the works on it. I also noticed the world had
changed during the time I was imprisoned -- cars had fins and girls had
shorter skirts.
     "I had a lot of time to think while I was a prisoner. Time is the
only thing you do have. I wondered if there was a God and wondered why
I hadn't gone out with certain girls. I vowed that once I got out, I'd
make the most of every day. And that's what I'm doing right now."
(McKenna is assigned to the 60th Airlift Wing public affairs office,
Travis AFB)
--

      //^\\
     /// \\\
    ///   \\\
   ///     \\\                    Air Force News Agency
   |         |              Kelly Air Force Base, Texas, USA
   \\ CMSgt //    ___________________ /____________________________________
   \\ Mike  //
   \\Bergman/
    \\    //
       ~~

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 10:09:03 EDT
From:    Doug McCabe <mccabe@OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Untold Stories f/ABTF, Pt. 2

                   Ohio University Electronic Communication


   Date:  04-Oct-1994 09:11am EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject:  Untold Stories f/ABTF, Pt. 2


    From Humor to Tragedy:

         "I was saddened by one soldier who, having received a Dear John
    letter, proceeded to commit suicide by volunteering for every hazardous
    detail until a sniper got him.  Also, the European kid who had served
    in the armies of four countries and spoke seven languages.  He was very
    religious and so proud to be an American.  He died with his head in my
    lap at the Nijmegen Bridge.  He prayed and I yelled for a medic, but
    none came - there were too many wounded."
                                       - Sgt. James Steed, 82nd AB Div.

         "There were children who played with grenades that exploded.
    Their remains were brought to us at the Moll Garage in pails with the
    message: here are six children.  But when I finished the examination, I
    found out I had 14 little feet."
                        - Medical serviceman Johannes Tempel, Nijmegen

         [The Moll Garage was used as a temporary morgue during and after
    the battle.  Tempel tells other tragic stories of people searching for
    relatives among the rows of dead:  this story was the most difficult to
    read.]

         "The destruction in town is enormous.  Everywhere are blocks of
    burned out houses, gaps in the roads, mountains of rubble and glass,
    uprooted trees, people dragging away the rest of their belongings - in
    one word, desolate.  Compared to this suffering following the February
    bombing was as nothing.  How many years will it be before Nijmegen will
    have rid herself of all traces of battle?"
                   - Orpheus theater director Martijn Deinum, Nijmegen

         [The February bombing referred to was the unintentional attack by
    the 8th AAF on 22 Feb. 1944 where a good bit of the older downtown was
    destroyed and over 880 people were killed.  Three other Dutch cities
    were also hit that day.  The Germans made a great deal of propaganda
    out of the incidents.]

         "German soldiers lay everywhere; they had fallen right where they
    were shot.  On one street, there were small 9' by 12' lawns, with iron
    fences around them and I remember seeing German soldiers slumped
    against them with their rifles sticking out between the bars.  One
    soldier was leaning against the fence with his helmet down over his
    eyes and his finger still on the trigger of his rifle.  Another, a
    young boy who looked no older than 15 or 16, was slumped back against a
    wall of one of the houses.  His helmet had fallen off and he looked
    like he was taking a nap.
         I thought how much, how very, very much I hated this war.  All of
    these soldiers looked so young, so healthy.  I felt sorry for them.
    They did not want this war.  Their relatives did not want it, either.
    'How sickening this is,' I thought.  'In Germany, no one knows they are
    dead. And who is to tell them?'"
                                  - Johanna Mason nee Breman, Nijmegen

         [Johanna met and married an 82nd trooper and moved to the US after
    the war.]

         "Suddenly I saw two soldiers, grown-up men and therefore not
    Hitler Youth, who were carrying on their backs what would be described
    today as insecticide spraying apparatus.  They went from house to
    house, knocking out a window and then what looked like spraying
    something inside.  To my horror, my house was 'treated' also and the
    first flames became visible not long afterward.  I then ran across the
    street, someone screemed something at me in German, but I went on and
    saw my father, mother, and brother emerge from the house, bewildered
    and frightened but otherwise alright."
                                  - Student Willem Bartels, Nijmegen

         [As the Germans were forced to retreat from Nijmegen some of them,
    mostly Hitler Youth, systematically set afire whole city blocks.
    Nijmegen, the oldest city in the Netherlands, therefore suffered
    airforce bombing, street fighting, deliberate firings, and shelling.]

         "I saw, for the first time, a German jet and watched it being shot
    down - all in no longer than ten seconds.  Then, not more than an hour
    later, I watched one of our own B-26's losing a wing and, while trying
    to escape, one of the flyer's parachute catch on the plane, thus
    dragging him to the ground.  All of this happened while we were sitting
    quietly beside the Nijmegen bridge at our command station."
                             - Chief WO Robert Stallbories, 82nd AB Div.

         [Once the Allies had taken the Nijmegen railroad and road bridges
    the Germans desperately tried to destroy them.  They used aircraft,
    including the ME-262, floating mines, and even frogmen with special
    submersable explosives.  The latter did manage to drop one span of the
    railroad bridge although all efforts failed to do more than slight
    damage to the road bridge.]

    More in a couple of days.

    Doug



Received:  04-Oct-1994 10:08am

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 10:25:53 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Hiroshima et. al.

     > Just curious: why does a plutonium bomb need the implosion type
     > detonator? Why could it not work with the gun-type? Alternatively, I
     > suppose the u235 bomb would have worked with an implosion detonator.
     > Many thanks,
     > Johannes van Vuren,
     > Canterbury, England.


     There are things man isn't meant to know.

     The answer may violate the Official Secrets Act. ;>)



        Steve L. New                     .............................
        Weapon System Manager            .............................
        Battalion Countermine Set        ............ /\ .............
        U.S. Army TACOM AMSTA-IM-FR1D    ............/  \.............
        DSN: 786-5403  FAX: 786-7788     ............    .............
        EMAIL  NEWST@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL   ............    .............

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 10:22:46 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: POL:Hiroshima - why implosion, just curious

On Tue, 4 Oct 1994 14:11:39 GMT Johannes van Vuren said:
>Just curious: why does a plutonium bomb need the implosion type detonator?
>Why could it not work with the gun-type? Alternatively, I suppose the u235
>bomb would have worked with an implosion detonator.

Disclaimer:  I am neither a physicist nor a bomb designer.  So this is
necessarily general & subject to correction (-:  Any bomb designers out
there, please feel free to correct (-:  (I *do* have a somewhat extended
interview with one of the early bomb designers, published in John McFee's
=The Curve of Binding Energy=, at home; it has several pages devoted to
the first bomb(s).)

The problem is how to get the flying neutrons to have a sufficient
probability of striking nuclei & producing other neutrons that will do the
same thing to release great amounts of energy.  If you have a sufficient
quantity of enriched uranium, that will do the job.  If the size is too
small, neutrons will escape the material too quickly to sustain the
reaction.  But of course, if you make the material denser, then the
neutrons are back in the same soup, so to speak:  nuclei are closer together
& the probabilities go back up.  What's a quick way to make something
denser--bearing in mind that it has to be *awfully* quick before the
chain reaction blows itself apart?  Implode it--evenly--from all sides.
Temporarily you get a mass vs. volume in your favor.  Another way is to
keep adding matter until you naturally get mass vs. volume in your favor.
Since you want an explosion instead of a meltdown, you want to add that
mass quickly, and the easiest way to do so is divide a sufficient quantity
in half & then smash it together quickly.  Now, with U-235 you can go
either route, but why make it hard on yourself?  So go with a "gun-bomb".
With plutonium, I'm not sure I remember the answer off-hand, but one
obviously possibility is not having enough of it, and another is that
the energies produced might blow plutonium gun-bombs apart too quickly
for them to ever work well.

Nowadays, we might be able to make either design work with either material.
We also know a good many materials to use to reflect neutrons back into
the building reaction, and we know what to use as an accelerator, to
provide an initial source of free neutrons as the material suddenly
reaches critical mass/volume.  In 1945, I don't think these matters were
understood nearly as well.

Q:  how does the amateur plutonium bomb maker know he's close to reaching
critical?  A:  plastic explosives make good neutron reflectors.  As he
smears the stuff around the plutonium, if it starts getting warm, he'd
better thin it out quick (-:

ken koester
maint2@ers.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 10:38:16 -0400
From:    jmeierho@MAIL.NYSED.GOV
Subject: Re: WEAP: Eric Brown -Reply

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

> Does anyone know if American-built carrier fighters tangled with Me-109's
> during British airstrikes against the Tirpitz in Norway?

    No. It was strictly a  British  operation.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

American aircraft, flown by British pilots were used against the Tirpitz.

         According the Roskill, the Royal Navy made 7 attacks on the
         Tirpitz that involved American aircraft, viz. Corsairs, Wildcats
         and Hellcats.  The attacks were on Apr 3, Jul 17, Aug 22 (2
         attacks that day), Aug 24, and Aug 29, all in 1944.  Other
         attacks were planned in this general time period, but were called
         off due to bad weather.

         In the sources I used (Roskill, Barnett and Humble), the role of
         the U.S. aircraft was given as fighter cover, although at least
         some carried 500-lb bombs.  Fairy Barracudas carried the main
         weapon on these attacks, 1,600-lb armor piercing bombs.  In
         addition, the fighter aircraft attacked to AA gun positions on
         and around the Tirpitz.

         I can find only one reference to opposition from German fighters
         during these attacks.  Rohwer credits AA defenses and the Me 109s
         of JG 5 for shooting down 11 of the attacking aircraft during the
         first attack on Aug 22.

Sources
 Barnett, Correlli. _Engage the Enemy More Closely: The Royal Navy in the
    Second World War_. 1991

 Roskill, Stephen. _The War at Sea: 1939-1945_.  1954-1961

 Humble, Richard.  _Hitler's High Seas Fleet_.  1971

 Rohwer, J. & Hummelchen. _Chronology of the War at Sea, 1939-45_.  1974

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You may be thinking of the chase and pursuit of the Bismarck, the sister ship of
the Tirpitz. The Bismarck was sighted and located by a patroling
Catalina, at the time the US was still neutral in May 1941. This info was sent to
the Brits which resulted in the sinking of the ship.

        Terry
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

If you are suggesting that the patrolling Catalina was serving as a US Navy
aircraft, I believe you are mistaken.  The aircraft in question, AH545, coded
WQ-Z of No. 209 Squadron, was piloted by an RAF pilot, although his co-pilot
was an American navel officer, "one of seventeen U.S. Navy pilots sent to
England in secret to give British pilots on-the-job training".  The a/c was in
British markings and serving with the Coastal Command.   The communication
of the sighting was entirely within the British command structure.

Among other referencese, see

Roscoe Creed. _PBY: The Catalina Flying Boat_ . 1985

 Andrew Hendrie. _Flying Cats: The Catalina Aircraft of World War II_.  1988

John Meierhoffer                jmeierho@mail.nysed.gov
Albany New York         518 486 2390 (work)   283 4761 (home)

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 11:32:11 EST
From:    Aldo Hubert <HUBERT@PHYSICAL.UNCG.EDU>
Subject: Re: Invasion of Crete -- Operation Merkur

Emery,

Winstion Churchill in The Second World War deals in moderate detail
with the Crete invasion (in the abridged version  the detail is
moderate, I expect the expanded edition would obviously contain far
more detail).



Aldo_Hubert@UNCG.edu


Aldo M. Hubert
University of North Carolina at Greensboro
Greensboro NC 27412

OBESA CANTAVIT

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 11:31:57 EDT
From:    Cassady Craft <CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: F-82

Steve, consider the tremendous area of the Pacific, cross reference this
with the exceptional range of the P-51, then use your imagination to hook
two of them together and get twice the range (just about), remember the
limitations of one pilot---then you have the correct rationale for the
P-51.

Cassady Craft
Department of Political Science
University of Georgia
e-mail CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
or
CCRAFT@LANL.GOV

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 11:22:30 EDT
From:    William Lippert <WL1958A@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject: SS and SA

    There has been a lot of talk about the SS, the SA, and the Fascist
Red Shirts (or some other such color, it escapes me at the moment).
I'd like to clear up a few things because it seems as if people have
been referring to the SS and SA first as combat units and second as
having a hierarchical structure (one progressing from the SA to the SS).
   First, the SA never saw combat (except perhaps in city defense) and was
never a combat unit.  After the 1934 Night of the Long Knives, the SA
became half a joke.  I say half a joke because they were not the place
of high prestige.  The jobs of most SA persons were to attend rallies,
perhaps be block or section leaders.  Not too much more.  The SS, on the
other hand, was the elite organizatin of the Reich.  It, however, was
also politically oriented.  For example, important policemen, governors,
and other beaurocrats were given honorary SS titles and ranks.  It wasn't
until the war in the East, though, that the SS raised its own fighting
units - the Waffen SS.
   This should clear up some of the comparisons between different political/
military groups.

William Lippert
The American University

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 11:30:49 EDT
From:    Kendall Miles <T330075@UNIVSCVM.CSD.SCAROLINA.EDU>
Subject: Re: WWII-L Digest - 2 Oct 1994 to 3 Oct 1994

Re:  Tim Watts and Ford plant in Germany?

    I don't know about DURING the war, but we have discussed in a
diplomatic history seminar how in the period 1933-1935  U.S. owned
companies built a large part, if not the majority, of German tanks.
I know this is briefly touched on in LaFeber's "American Age."





  Kendall Miles
  K.Miles@scarolina.edu            Motto:"Don't ask me!  I don't
  Graduate Student--History               know nothin!"   :)

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 11:57:07 EDT
From:    Cassady Craft <CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
Subject: Re: TACT:Downfall

Arnaud, I wonder if Hitler's strategem of "letting the Russians advance" was
a very shrewd calculation.  Never underestimate the man--he was at once
brilliant and stupid.  The worst fears of the German soldier and the German
people were Russian occupation.  If they were "allowed" to advance, then he
could count on very skillful and tough resistance--even to the last man
(he hoped, but most of the Wehrmacht preferred to fight another day).  On the
western front, however, the situation was vastly different.  While Hitler
did not want to lose to the West, the Germans did not really fear Western
occupation, even after their experience from the First World War (they
resented the reparations and occupation, but I don't think they ever, ever
feared the French and British).  Because of the nature of the latter half
of the war politically, Hitler may have very well feared the advance of the
Western allies in a political sense.  It would be much easier for the Army's
leadership to surrender there than on the Eastern front, where they could
expect to be shot.  Also, why would you fight so hard in the West as a
soldier?  You would have heard about the "lush" prison camps in the West,
likewise the Russian habit of taking no prisoners.

It sounds to me that Hitler's reasoning, as you have depicted it, was very
logical.  Most political leaders, anywhere in the world and whatever type
of political system, are self-interested seekers after the propetuation of
their own power.

Thanks for the good posting.  As for the German scientists, the devil is in
the details, and within 8 days after the first bomb, working from newspaper
accounts, they had most of the theoretic stuff done.

Cassady Craft
Department of Political Science
University of Georgia
e-mail CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
or
CCRAFT@LANL.GOV

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 10:56:52 -0500
From:    Greg Kelley <gregk@STPAUL.LIB.MN.US>
Subject: Re: Italy in WW2--Regina Marina (cont.)

A very good analysis of the Italian Navy's performance during the war
appears in REEVALUATING MAJOR NAVAL COMBATANTS OF WORLD WAR II (Greenwood
Press, 1989), discussing the hopes, plans, strengths, & inherent
weaknesses of the Italian Fleet (problems with gunnery, no air recon,
etc).  Since the Italians had for years seen the French as their most
likely contender, they should best be judged as compared to them;
obviously, the Royal Navy was way out of their league.

True, Italian subs stayed on the surface & duked it out, often
successfully, with enemy aircraft, but this policy also reflected the
problem of having designed subs with a much slower submerging time than
your typical U-Boat.  The shallower & I'm told clearer waters of the Med
also made underwater concealment much less effective.

MAS and other naval assault units were very effective-- THE SEA DEVILS is
a good book describing their activities (remember the chariots at
Alexandria?).  Of course, they also served in the Black Sea, where they
had opportunity to rub shoulders with the Royal Rumanian Navy off the
Crimea, but then I intentionally digress.....


                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          gregk@stpaul.lib.mn.us

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 12:12:31 EDT
From:    Cassady Craft <CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Invasion of Crete -- Operation Merkur

Terry, by all means recount whatever Herr Beine has told you that would be of
interest here.  I think we all enjoy first hand accounts (even if they be
second hand).

Thanks,
Cassady Craft
Department of Political Science
University of Georgia
e-mail CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
or
CCRAFT@LANL.GOV

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 12:14:58 EDT
From:    Cassady Craft <CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
Subject: Re: POL:Hiroshima - why implosion, just curious

Emmanuel is exactly right (again) on the bomb mechanics.  U235 is 3.1 average
neutrons per atom split, while U239 is about 3.9.

Cassady Craft
Department of Political Science
University of Georgia
e-mail CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
or
CCRAFT@LANL.GOV

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 12:27:13 -0500
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Italy in WW2, my $0.02--part III

The author of "The Hollow Legions" is Mario Cervi.  Its an excellent account
of the Italian war against Greece, with many quotations from letters home
from the participants, etc.  I'd recommend it.

Regards

Mike Yaklich

PS: I haven't read through all my msgs yet to see if anyone else answered this
one, but the Italians did indeed downsize their divisions from three infantry
regts to two (resulting in the "divizione binario") during the late 'thirties.
The idea was to increase the number of divisions, but also field experience in
Ethiopia revealed that generals had trouble handling formations as large as
their old style divisions.  Despite all his posturing for history, as well as
many other (IMHO)unsavory characteristics, Marshal Badoglio deserves a little
credit for being unequivocably opposed to this change.

Regards

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 12:53:21 -0500
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: TACT:Downfall

        In 1941-42 the Germans had two panzer divisions in Africa (they started
    Barbarossa with 19 in the first wave!).  Likewise, there were only two
fighter geschwaders active in France (JG2 and JG26).  I don't know the exact
figures for German losses in the west but with such a scant allocation o
of resources to that theatre (another fighter wing, JG27, in Africa) they
couldn't (IMHO) have been that great percentage-wise.  Just my $.02

MIke Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 11:55:12 -0500
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: TRIVIA:Czech Army

>     I have never felt that the Italian people and armed forces as
> well really had the heart to fight a protracted war, and only did so
> at the bidding of a popular head of state.
>
>     Terry
>

I have to agree with Terry.  From my experiences in Italy 1990-92 they
are a peace loving bunch for the most part.  For example their taste
in video games is very telling.  They prefer PAC MAN and Qbert rather
than the mindless blasting games so popular in the US.  For what its
worth....

Cheers Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01/kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 11:50:39 -0500
From:    Greg Kelley <gregk@STPAUL.LIB.MN.US>
Subject: Re: SS and SA

help?  I've a question regarding the Waffen-SS......

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          gregk@stpaul.lib.mn.us

On Tue, 4 Oct 1994, William Lippert wrote:

>     There has been a lot of talk about the SS, the SA, and the Fascist
> Red Shirts (or some other such color, it escapes me at the moment).

(just can't resist-- the Green Shirts a.k.a. Legion of the Archangel
Michael were in Rumania.)

  It wasn't
> until the war in the East, though, that the SS raised its own fighting
> units - the Waffen SS.

Now I'm confused.  Weren't there SS units involved in the capture of
Danzig in 1939?  Also, I recall a barnload of British POWs in northern
France being shot by members of an SS unit during the 1940 campaign.
Could someone clarify the date of first Waffen-SS troop deployment?

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 12:01:42 -0500
From:    Greg Kelley <gregk@STPAUL.LIB.MN.US>
Subject: Re: WEAP:aircraft comparisons

On Sat, 1 Oct 1994, Henry Sirotin wrote:

> Re odd fighter groupings, Bf109s and Hawker Hurricanes fighting side
> by side for the Rumanians in 1941, if I recall correctly.
>
Yes, they did-- alongside Polish PZL P.24s and French Morane MS.406s.  In
fact if memory serves (can't get to William Green's AIR FORCES OF THE
WORLD from where I'm sitting) they even looked at some Fiat G.50s which I
don't beleive were delivered.  Still, they could always use their
assorted fighters (including some Heinkel He 112s) to escort their
squadrons of Savoia Marchetti S.M. 79 bombers.  Talk about your global
village of air forces.....

                                               Glad To Be Service!

                                               Greg Kelley
                                               St. Paul Public Library
 >

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 13:34:34 -0400
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: Italy in WW2, my $0.02--part III

        Well, since we're drifting into the Regia Marina, I will send out
my installments on the history of the Italian battleships if there's enough
interest.  I sent them out last May and they haven't changed significantly
since then.  My source is "Regia Marina: Italian Battleships of World War
Two" by Erminio Bagnasco and Mark Grossman.  I would imagine that there
are many new subscribers who haven't seen them but I don't want to annoy
"old-timers" with repetitive messages.  Let me know via personal email if
you're interested or opposed.  Thanks.

PS: Sunday afternoon, my site started dropping email on the floor.  This
situation lasted about 24 hours.  If anyone had sent me email during that
period, please resend it.  I'm not ignoring you, I just couldn't hear you!
--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
I cut you on everyt'ing; I don't need you!  Sixty
feet of bridge I can pick up almost anywhere!

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 13:36:21 -0400
From:    Warren Thompson <THOMPSON@ACAD.LVC.EDU>
Subject: HIST

Opel (GMC owned) made trucks for the German military, as did Ford. Some
models of the latter even had the characteristic chevron-shaped grill.

-- Warren Thompson
LEBANON VALLEY COLLEGE
Annville PA 17003

thompson@acad.lvc.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 13:39:24 -0400
From:    Warren Thompson <THOMPSON@ACAD.LVC.EDU>
Subject: HIST -- Armed SS

Armed SS, in units of less than division strength, fought in Poland and the
Western campaign.

-- Warren Thompson






campaign in the West

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 12:57:30 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Italy in WW2, my $0.02--part II

Hello, Henry!

> Did the pre-war SS really have no equal in Europe? Royal Marines? And  what
> do we know of elite Soviet units in this period?

   I know of none that could and did compare to the discipline those
fellows had. Again, I am speaking of the pre-war selection process
associated with anyone who joined or wanted to join the Waffen-SS.
The training of those fellows took as much as two years, and it was
strenuous to say the least. Anyone, before the conflict began, who
wanted to join the Waffen-SS had to show pure German ancestry back to
1750, possess the necessary physical characteristics, i.e. blond,
blue-eyed, 6 feet tall, no glasses, etc. I have heard the statement
made by a former member of the Waffen-SS that "if a candidate had so
much as a filling in his teeth, he could be rejected". I can't
personally verify this, but the selection process was strict and
adhered to, at least before the war.


> Whatever the opinion of WW II Rumanian troops may be, they were hardly
> cowards. Those committed to Barbarossa prior to Nov 1941 took some of
> the highest casualty rates in the European war.

    I quoted to you what I myself was told by some Rumanian
nationals, I had a chance to meet. I tend to agree with you but,
if you consider the Stalingrad operation, it was no accident that
Stavka chose to let the blow fall on the Rumanians to start their
counteroffensive and create panic in the German ranks.

    Thanks, again for your post.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 13:57:04 -0500
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Italy in WW2--Regina Marina (cont.)

        In addition to the book cited by Greg Kelley re: the Regina Marina
(which is an excellent source for rethinking the roles of most of the major
navies) anyone interested in Italian naval efforts during WW2 should pick up
Marc'Antonio Bragadin's "The Italian Navy In World War 2."  This might be the
classic source on the topic (Bragadin, for instance, also wrote entire passages
on the naval war for Emilio Faldella's "Italia nella Secondo Guerra
Mondiale."), written by an officer whose job for much of the war was verifying
Italian and Allied ship losses for Supermarina staff.

Regards

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 13:07:54 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: SS and SA

Hello, William!

I thank you for your post and agree with everything except that below.

> and other beaurocrats were given honorary SS titles and ranks.  It wasn't
> until the war in the East, though, that the SS raised its own fighting
> units - the Waffen SS.


    The Waffen-SS was created in 1935 by later SS-Obergruppenfuehrer
und Generaloberst der Waffen-SS Paul Hausser. The Waffen-SS took part
in operations in Poland, in the campaign of 1940 and in France.

    Hope this has been of interest and wanted to clear up any
misunderstanding about this.

    Thank you.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 13:19:01 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Egypt

Hello, Steve!

Here goes with a reading list of the war in the desert:

                      Hardbacks

Panzer Commander by Colonel Hans von Luck
The Trail of the Fox by David Irving
The Desert Generals by Correli Barnett (Excellent)
Rommel by Charles Douglas-Home
The Battle for North Africa by Brigadier John Strawson
El Alamein to the River Sangro and Normandy to the Baltic by Field-
Marshal the Vicount Mongomery of Alamein
Montgomery of Alamein by Alun Chalfont
Kasserine Pass by Martin Blumenson


                    Paperbacks

Rommel by Ronald Lewin
With Rommel in the Desert by H.W. Schmidt
Alamein and the Desert War by Derek Jewell
Foxhole in Cairo by Leonard Mosley
Popski's Private Army by Lt.Col. Vladimir Peniakov
The Foxes of the Desert by Paul Carrell
The Battle of El Alamein by Fred Majdalany
The March to Tunis by Alan Moorehead
The Memoirs of Field Marshal Montgomery by Bernard Law Montgomery
Brazen Chariots by Major Robert Crisp
Kasserine by Ward Rutherford
Beda Fomm by Kenneth Macksey
Africa Corps by Kenneth Macksey
The Raiders by Anthony Sievers
Operation Torch by Vincent Jones
Rommel by Roger Sibley and Michael Fry
Montgomery by B. W. Thompson
Panzer Division by Kenneth Macksey
The Desert Warriors by David Jablonski

There are others but these are the ones to which I have access and I
hope that they have been of interest and of assistance for you. If
you need anything else, please don't hesitate to ask.

All the best.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 13:21:37 -0500
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <TWATTS@EXODUS.VALPO.EDU>
Subject: Re: SS and SA

I know there were 3 SS motorized infantry regiments in the Battle of France
(Der Fuhrer, Deutschland, and Germania).  They provided flank guard for
XLI Panzer Corps during the drive to the English Channel in May 1940 and
were involved in the Battle of Aire against French armored counterattacks.
Apparently they were organized into the SS V Division and at least some
had participated in the Polish Campaign.  (From B. H. Friesen, "The Battle
of Aire", in ARMOR, Jan-Feb 1994, pp. 22-28)
Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 13:04:15 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Eric Brown -Reply

Hello, John!

Thank you for the info below. It is much appreciated.

>          According the Roskill, the Royal Navy made 7 attacks on the
>          Tirpitz that involved American aircraft, viz. Corsairs, Wildcats
>          and Hellcats.  The attacks were on Apr 3, Jul 17, Aug 22 (2
>          attacks that day), Aug 24, and Aug 29, all in 1944.  Other
>          attacks were planned in this general time period, but were called
>          off due to bad weather.
>
>          In the sources I used (Roskill, Barnett and Humble), the role of
>          the U.S. aircraft was given as fighter cover, although at least
>          some carried 500-lb bombs.  Fairy Barracudas carried the main
>          weapon on these attacks, 1,600-lb armor piercing bombs.  In
>          addition, the fighter aircraft attacked to AA gun positions on
>          and around the Tirpitz.
>
>          I can find only one reference to opposition from German fighters
>          during these attacks.  Rohwer credits AA defenses and the Me 109s
>          of JG 5 for shooting down 11 of the attacking aircraft during the
>          first attack on Aug 22.

    The sources you cite are more up to date than mine. I might add
one thing, though. The commander of that fighter squadron, Major
Heinrich Ehrler was later court-martialed for not doing more to
prevent the sinking of the Tirpitz. He was the only Knight's Cross
holder to be so tried by courts-martial during the war.


 >
> Sources
>  Barnett, Correlli. _Engage the Enemy More Closely: The Royal Navy in the
>     Second World War_. 1991
>
>  Roskill, Stephen. _The War at Sea: 1939-1945_.  1954-1961
>
Hello, John!

Thanks for the note and info.


> If you are suggesting that the patrolling Catalina was serving as a US Navy
> aircraft, I believe you are mistaken.  The aircraft in question, AH545, coded
> WQ-Z of No. 209 Squadron, was piloted by an RAF pilot, although his co-pilot
> was an American navel officer, "one of seventeen U.S. Navy pilots sent to
> England in secret to give British pilots on-the-job training".  The a/c was in
> British markings and serving with the Coastal Command.   The communication
> of the sighting was entirely within the British command structure.

    I am thinking of Ludovic Kennedy's account of the chase and
sinking of the Bismarck that mentioned that. Your account certainly
differs with what I have read, and apparently is more up-to-date. I
hadn't heard or read that.



 > Among other referencese, see
>
> Roscoe Creed. _PBY: The Catalina Flying Boat_ . 1985
>
>  Andrew Hendrie. _Flying Cats: The Catalina Aircraft of World War II_.  1988
>

    Thanks for the references.


    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 13:25:58 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: TAC: ?'Could still loose the war?

Hello, Al!

Thanks for the question.

> Would he have acted so contrary to common sense in the face of potential
> assassins?

     I think he would have acted differently, if he personally felt
that the threat was real and that there were definitely problems with
security. This, of course, was not the case.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 13:35:59 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: TACT:Could they have won ?

Hello, Brad!

Thanks for the note.

\>         Always glad to hear another opinion.  I had not heard that
> Stalin was ever considering throwing in the towel.  Now thats an
> interesting what-if :)   Seriously, do you have a reference for the
> Stalin/Bulgarian emissary episode.  This sounds like very interesting
> stuff.

    I hadn't either. My comment to you about Stalin was derived from
a well-made documentary that dealt with JS based on more info
unearthed or discovered in the Moscow or KGB archives. At the time,
and I still think this way, it was an extraordinary statement to
make. I can only state what was said in this documentary and it was
well-done and based on documentation recently found. At some point, I
am thinking that all or most that we know about the war on the
Eastern Front may have to be reinterpreted based on what is available
in Moscow.

    I know of one research project in the making that will go into
this.

    Hope this has been of interest.

    Thank you, Brad.

    Terry

>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 13:41:02 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gustav Geraet

Hello, again, Jim!


>    Amazing. Were there any actual reports of what the performance was like?
> Any anecdotal accounts? What kind of damage did this do? (gulp)

    What I posted on this is all that I have. I have some documentary
footage of this weapon as it was used at Sevastopol and it is
something to see, to say the least.

    I never saw or have ever seen the receiving end of those firings,
but I can only imagine that whatever that shell hit, would be
completely destroyed. After all, it took only one shell to penetrate
100 feet of earth and 5 meters of concrete to destroy that Soviet
ammunition dump. It must have been a sight to behold.

    Wish I could send you more.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 13:54:35 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: SS and SA

Hello, Greg!


> Now I'm confused.  Weren't there SS units involved in the capture of
> Danzig in 1939?  Also, I recall a barnload of British POWs in northern
> France being shot by members of an SS unit during the 1940 campaign.
> Could someone clarify the date of first Waffen-SS troop
deployment?

To answer your question. Yes. There was a unit that took part in the
capture of Danzig and there was also a unit there called "Heimwehr
Danzig". The Waffen-SS took part in every military operation that
involved the Army during the war. The Waffen-SS was formed in 1935
under the command of Paul Hausser.

Hope this has been of help.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 14:02:58 -0500
From:    Mark Parillo <parillo@KSU.KSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Italy in WW2--Regina Marina (cont.)

   I recently acquired a copy of _The Italian Navy in World War II_, by
James J. Sadkovich. It is a new release from Greenwood Press. I confess I
haven't had time to look it over yet, but I have worked with Jim
Sadkovich before and can attest to his skills as historian and editor. My
guess is that this will certainly become a key contribution to the
literature on this subject.
       - Mark Parillo
         Department of History
         Kansas State University

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 15:17:07 -0400
From:    Warren Thompson <THOMPSON@ACAD.LVC.EDU>
Subject: SS in combat

Greg Kelley is correct. In the battle for Danzig in the opening hours of the
German invasion of Poland, "Heimwehr Danzig," composed in part of SS men
(I'm not certain if they were Allgemeine SS or otherwise), saw action under
fire. There exists a photo of an SS man wearing black peaked cap, brown shirt,
black breeches, armed with a rifle, advancing down a street in back of one
of the special 4-axle armored cars favored by German police forces.

-- Warren Thompson

thompson@acad.lvc.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 15:25:48 -0500
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Italy in WW2, my $0.02--part II

If we're talking about strictly military organizations, how about the pre-war
Japanese naval air force for high standards in personnel.  According to Saburo
Sakai's "Samurai," his class (1937) at Lake Tsuchiura (sp?) naval fighter pilot's school had 1,500 applicants (all naval enlisted men or officer cadets with
spotless service records) of which 70 were selected, and only 25 graduated!
As many list members know, the courses there included such exercizes as
climbing up a ten-foot-high iron pole and hanging there by one arm for ten
minutes, swimming a minute and a half underwater, doing somersaults off a
platform onto hard ground (taught the recruit to keep oriented at any angle,
which I guess came in handy while doing rolls and such in combat), etc.  My
favorite one was the wrestling matches where the LOSER stayed on the mat until
he won one (or wrestled the whole class twice without winning, after which he
was bounced from the program--no losers tolerated!-- this latter to teach the
aggressiveness thought necessary in fighter pilots).  Also the famous box where
trainees stared at the sky through tubes until they could make out the brighteststars by daylight.  A match even for the Waffen SS "endurance squad" routines,
IMHO

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 15:16:27 -0400
From:    jmeierho@MAIL.NYSED.GOV
Subject: Re: WEAP: F-82 -Reply

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
....

Maybe I'm confused, but I cannot for the life of me figure out why such a craft
was designed outside of a barroom...

(I know I show my ignorance, there HAD to be a reason!)

Steven E. Pudlo  - sep@trctc.commnet.edu |

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 15:26:50 -0400
From:    jmeierho@MAIL.NYSED.GOV
Subject: Re: WEAP: F-82 -Reply

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
[questions re the North American F-82]

Maybe I'm confused, but I cannot for the life of me figure out why such a craft
was designed outside of a barroom...

(
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - sep@trctc.commnet.edu

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

The marrying of two conventional aircraft in the manner of the NA F-82 was
not exclusively a American idea.  This concept was also used by Germans,
who termed  the idea _zwilling_ (meaning _twin_).

Two aircraft had this configuration:

He 111Z -

This involved the marrying of two He 111 into a plane intended to tow gliders.
Its development was prompted by the need to have an aircraft that could
handle the mega-gliders Ju 322 and Me 321.  The aircraft was the relatively
simple linking of two standard He 111s at the wing.  The horizontal stabilizers
were left untouched.  A fifth engine was mounted in the middle of the linking
wing section.

Work on prototypes began in early 1941 and  operational use began in early
summer 1942.  Eventually 12 would be built.

Their use was envisioned in the planning for Operation _Herkules_ (the
airborne invasion of Malta) and other unexecuted plans to attack sites in
eastern Russia.  They were going to be used to supply troops surrounded at
Stalingrad but got there too late.  A more clearly successful use was in
supplying the Kuban beachhead in early 1943.  after landing, they would ferry
out casualties.

The He 111Z units were disbanded in the summer of 1944.  Only 4 aircraft were
still operational.  Bomber and reconnaissance version were considered but
never built.


Bf 109Z -

The success of the He 111Z led the Messerschmidt design staff to apply that
concept to a fighter.  The intent was to produce a high performance
_Zestoerer_ type aircraft (that is the role of the initial Bf 110s) while avoiding
the production disruptions inherent in producing an entirely new design.
Prototype work began in late 1942 and was completed in 1943.  A 3-view
drawing in Green's book shows the cockpit of the starboard a/c covered by a
fairing, that is, it was conceived as a single pilot a/c..

The prototype was heavily damaged and flight trails were never started.  The
project was abandoned in summer 1944.


Source:

William Green _Warplanes of the Third Reich_  1972

Does anyone know of other examples of this idea being used?

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 15:12:48 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Untold Stories f/ABTF, Pt. 2

Hello, Doug!

Great post!! Your posts really bring home the horror of war and how
it must never happen again.

Thanks.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 15:28:20 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Switzerland in WWII

Hello, Ken!

Thanks for the note and will be glad to answer your question,


> This would appear to be a violation of neutrality during wartime.

    Yes, it was, but it was kept extremely quiet.

  Weren't
> Allied fliers interned?

    Yes. And some were also recruited by Allen Dulles to process
intelligence info.

 If so, weren't the Swiss obliged to intern the
> Germans as well?

    Yes, but in this instance, the pressure from Goering and the
German air ministry was so intense, out of fear that the Me-110 would
fall into Allied hands, particularly the radar equipment on board,
that it all resulted in a compromise situation for the Swiss. My
source is Janusz Piekalkiewicz' book "Luftkrieg: 1939-1945" in German
which goes into much detail on this episode.

 I ask for informational reasons, ie, what was the
> situation & the applicable international rule of law.

    To my knowledge, international law was circumvented. This whole
issue brings to mind the question of just how neutral was
Switzerland really.

    Your thoughts?


    Thanks for your note.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 15:36:39 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: WWII-L Digest - 2 Oct 1994 to 3 Oct 1994

Hello, Kendall,

Thanks for the post and I am curious about your comments.

>     I don't know about DURING the war, but we have discussed in a
> diplomatic history seminar how in the period 1933-1935  U.S. owned
> companies built a large part, if not the majority, of German tanks.

    Any idea of the source of this? There was much cooperation
between Germany and Russia to develope tank tactics, with the Germans
being able to use the facilities at Lipetsk for this purpose. In
return, the Germans allowed or invited selected Russians to attend
the Kriegsakademie in Berlin. The Treaty of Rapollo allowed this
exchange, although it was kept secret.

    I know of no American attempt to help build German tanks at a
time when the Germans themselves were severely limited in what they
could produce.

    I would appreciate your source on that besides what the teacher
may have said.


 > I know this is briefly touched on in LaFeber's "American
Age." >

    I will look into this one.

    Thanks for the post.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 15:42:08 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: POL:Hiroshima

Hello, Ron!

Thanks for your note!

> For the record, had I been responsible for making the decision concerning
> the atomic bombings, I would have bombed Hiroshima for the simple reason
> that doing so left the enemy with no doubt as to the power of the weapon
> and my resolve to use it. Immoral? Perhaps. But how less immoral would have
> been a president's decision to invade Japan at the undoubted cost of tens
> of thousands of American lives when he had so effective an alternative to
> their sacrifice at hand?

    I can only second what you say here. To have had a weapon in hand
that could end the horrible carnage, and not to use it, would have
been tantamount to a crime.

    Thanks.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 15:43:30 -0500
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <TWATTS@EXODUS.VALPO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gustav Geraet

Hello, Terry.
I enjoyed your postings about the railroad gun and its performance against
Sevastapol.  Although this may be on the fringes of the list, do you have
any idea how it compared to the WW I Paris gun?  Was it manufactured by the
same people or draw in any way on the earlier gun?  TIA
Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 16:22:18 -0500
From:    Greg Kelley <gregk@STPAUL.LIB.MN.US>
Subject: Re: Italy in WW2--Regina Marina (cont.)

Refresh my memory, but isn't Bragadin's book the one with the appendix in
the back that lists all Allied naval losses in the Mediterranean during
the war (including BARHAM, ARK ROYAL, and a mess of cruisers off Crete),
and kinda implies these losses were all due to Italian action?  Also the
same book that suggests the French naval attack on Genoa in 1940 was
beaten off by the valiant efforts of a couple coast defense batteries and
an old torpedo boat?  Other than that, it's a nice book....

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          gregk@stpaul.lib.mn.us

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 16:25:58 -0500
From:    Greg Kelley <gregk@STPAUL.LIB.MN.US>
Subject: Re: SS in combat

Thanks.  For a moment there I was afraid my copy of George Stein's
WAFFEN-SS: HITLER'S ELITE GUARD AT WAR had suddenly lost all validity....

(and I'll refrain from mentioning the SS-Regiment raised from Rumanians)


                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          gregk@stpaul.lib.mn.us

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 17:00:44 -0500
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: German Military Vehicles

> ..... I was on the phone to the Tank Museum in
> Bovington, Hamphire UK today - think I'll drop down there and take a
> look. They have ~100 vehicles on display but own in total ~300
> AFVs.

Hi Steve,

That must be the one I was thinking of.  Is it not an IWM affiliate?
I have never been to Britain so anything I say about museums there
should be taken with copious amounts of salt.  I am sure that most
museums comprise far more than can be displayed as you mention above.
Adequate storage becomes a problem like at Aberdeen where the
collection is stored outside exposed to the elements.  Their budget
is such that all they can do is keep a coat of paint on them.

I spoke with the staff when I was there in 1989 and they wish they
could do more but short of offering tank rides to raise funds their
hands are tied. :-/  Until a value is placed on them by the US Govt.
and funds set aside for proper storage and restoration they will
continue to deteriorate despite the staff's best efforts.  Rust is
ever vigilant and always funded. :-(

Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 17:21:12 -0500
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: ? WW2 Airplane Crash in CBI

> Does anyone out there have either access to an index to STARS & STRIPES
> or some other source that might describe this crash?  We've exhausted our
> sources here.
>
>                                           Greg Kelley

Hi Greg,

Sorry if you already got this but I am way behind on my list
reading.... but, you might check the Library of Congress.  I believe
they have all those issues on microfilm if not hard copy.  You can
search their holdings online through a telnet connection to LOCIS.
Its at locis.loc.gov I think.  If you need further data contact me
back channel and I'll give you more help.

Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01/kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 17:12:41 -0500
From:    Greg Kelley <gregk@STPAUL.LIB.MN.US>
Subject: Re: Rumanians in WW2, runners, etc.

By any chance was one of the individuals you spoke with Hans-Ulrich
Rudel?  He says much the same thing in his book STUKA PILOT, though he
also told Allied interrogators that Nazi treatment of Jews was not unlike
US treatment of Negroes or American Indians, which to me only goes to
show that Rudel was a really GREAT Stuka pilot, not necessarily a really
smart individual.

Since neither Heinz Schroter nor Paul Carell report any inherent
cowardice for Rumanian soldiers in their books on the battle of
Stalingrad, I would question such a statement.  Sure, even Corneliu
Bogdan, Rumania's ambassador to the UN in the 1970's thought his
country's performance was no great shakes, but then very few countries at
that time & place were proud of their role in the war.

They may not have performed well, but when you consider what they had to
work with, well, hey.

A few titles you may wish to consult:

Gerhart Mueller-Hillbrand, GERMANY & ITS ALLIES IN WORLD WAR II

J. Lee Ready, THE FORGOTTEN AXIS: GERMANY'S PARTNERS & FOREIGN VOLUNTEERS
IN WORLD WAR II

Heinz Schroter, STALINGRAD  (who figures the Soviet breakthru at
Stalingrad of three guard tank corps & three guard cavalry corps against
a single understrength Rumanian infantry division was no big surprise)

Peter Gosztony, HITLER'S FREMDE HEERE: DAS SCHICKSAL DER NICHTDEUTSCHEN
ARMEEN IN OSTFELDZUG

Peter Gosztony, DEUTSCHLANDS WAFFENGEFAHRTEN AN DER OSTFRONT, 1941-1945

Paul Carell, STALINGRAD


                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          gregk@stpaul.lib.mn.us

On Mon, 3 Oct 1994, Robert T. Moore wrote:

> Hello, Greg!
>
>
>
> > Hey, don't mind me.  I'm still trying to find anyone to agree with my
> > contention that the Rumanians were good troops.
>
>     Not even the Rumanians I have spoken with have a high opinion of
> their own troops in WWII. They say that the Rumanian soldier in WWII
> was a "coward, and would run at the first opportunity."
>
>     Hope this helps.
>
>     Terry
>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 16:05:23 -0700
From:    Jim Curry <kidcurry@BILLINGS.LIB.MT.US>
Subject: Re: [INF] USAAF 2 OCT 44

American-owned factories were not uncommon in prewar Europe.  One of the
major oil refineries at Ploesti was a subsidiary, I think, of Standard Oil.
It was utterly destroyed by US bombers.  When the Soviets occupied Ploesti
in 1944, they were astounded to find that American capitalists had bombed
their own property.
Jim Curry

On Mon, 3 Oct 1994, Tim J. Watts wrote:

> Jack McKillop noted B-17 bombing a FORD (!) motor vehicle plant in Cologne
> Germany on this date.  Does anyone know if there were many American-owned
> manufacturing plants in Europe, contributing to the Nazi war effort?  I
> always thought American-owned plants in foreign countries were a
> phenomenon of the post-war era.
> Tim J. Watts
> Valparaiso University
>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 19:00:18 EDT
From:    "SGM Robert S. Rush" <rushr@MEADE-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Re: SS and SA

There was mention in an earlier post of the SA never seeing combat
except possibly in defense of cities.

The 60th Infantry division was made up of the S.A. Brigade Eberhardt-a
combat force smuggled into Danzig the Westerplatte, and surrounding areas
of Poland in 1939.  Fought in Poland,rance, and Russia.  Surrounded
and destroyed at Stalingrad.  Rebuilt around the 272d Regiment (Feldherrnhalle)
made up primarily of SA soldiers.  Destroyed at Budepest, remnants of
Felhernhalli still fighting on Eastern front when war ended.

>From German Order of Battle 1944 and tcham Hitler's Legions

Hope this helps

Rob Rush

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 19:25:25 CCS
From:    Jorge Merino <jem@VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject: WEAP: Heinkel He-111Z

Talking about the Heinkel He-111Z "Zwilling", I wonder if both fuselages
retained the flight control yoke for the pilots. I know the pilot was
in the left cockpit, but did the right cockpit have also kept the yoke?
(I mean, for emergencies, etc)? What was the role of the right cockpit
"pilot"?

Jorge Merino

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 19:51:37 -0400
From:    David Rising <drising@ACS.BU.EDU>
Subject: Re: SS in combat

If I'm not mistaken, it was a group of SS men who dressed up like Polish
soldiers and attacked the radio station which was used as an excuse to
invade Poland. That would make them the _first_ soldiers to fight in the
war wouldn't it?
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 20:38:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 5 OCT 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
THURSDAY, 5 OCTOBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  P-61, Northrop Black Widow

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): At dawn on Paramushiru Island, 2 B-24s bomb
Kashiwabara and Kurabu Cape.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 11 P-47s hit Mawlu and attack
locomotives and targets of opportunity in the Naha area; 8 B-25s attack
bridges at Namhkai, damaging the main bridge. Troop carriers fly 250+ sorties
to various locations in the CBI. The 493d Bombardment Squadron (Heavy), 7th
Bombardment Group (Heavy), moves from Tezgaon to Pandaveswar, India with
B-24s.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 12 B-25s and 22 fighter-bombers
attack Samshui, Koyiu and Takhing; 8 hit targets of opportunity in the
Canton-Wuchou area, and 3 bomb a storage area at Mangshih; 50+ P-40s and
P-51s over wide areas of S China attack rivercraft, road traffic, bridges,
town areas, and troops.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  AIRBORNE OPERATIONS (IX Troop Carrier Command): HQ 442d Troop Carrier Group
and the 303d and 304th Troop Carrier Squadrons move from Weston Zoyland,
England to Bonnetable and Peray, France respectfully, with C-47s.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): General Order 507 implements the
decision of 15 Sep to assign staff officers of HQ VIII Fighter Command to HQ
Eighth AF to represent units in administrative functions, thus eliminating
the administrative and operational control from HQ VIII Fighter Command and
placing it under HQ Eighth AF; this is necessitated by the transfer of
fighter groups to Bombardment Divisions. 2 missions are flown:
  Mission 665: 1,090 bombers and 733 fighters are dispatched to hit
industrial targets, airfields and railways in W Germany; 9 bombers and 5
fighters are lost:
  1. 348 B-17s dispatched hit targets of opportunity at Cologne (248),
Brechten (27), Dortmund (14) and Coblenz (11) using GH and H2X; 3 B-17s are
lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 156 damaged; 1 airman is KIA and 16 MIA.
Escort is provided by 181 of 193 P-51s; 3 P-51s are lost (pilots MIA).
  2. 360 B-24s are dispatched to hit Lippstadt Airfield (175), Rheine
marshalling yard (107) and Paderborn Airfield (28) visually; targets of
opportunity hit are Herford marshalling yard (8) and Lipperode Airfield (2);
1 B-24 is damaged beyond repair and 7 damaged. Escort is provided by 260
P-47s and P-51s; they claim 1-0-0 aircraft in the air and 15-0-7 on the
ground; 1 P-51 is lost (pilot MIA) and 3 P-47s and 1 P-51 damaged.
  3. 382 B-17s are dispatched to hit Munster/Loddenheide Airfield (235) and
Munster/Handorf Airfield (68) using PFF means; targets of opportunity hit are
the Rheine marshalling yard (10) and other (2); 6 B-17s are lost, 1 damaged
beyond repair and 190 damaged; 6 airmen are WIA and 55 MIA. Escort is
provided by 234 P-47s and P-51s without loss.
  Mission 666: 8 of 10 bombers drop leaflets in France, the Netherlands and
Germany during the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 330+ B-26s and A-20s dispatched
against targets in Arnhem, the Netherlands and Aldenhoven and Duren, Germany
are recalled; fighters hit pillboxes along the Westwall, support ground
forces of the XV Corps in France, fly armed reconnaissance in the Prum, Bonn,
Koblenz, Trier and Landau, Germany areas, hit targets along the Rhine-Marne
Canal, and during the night of 5/6 Oct fly patrol in Belgium, E France, and W
Germany. In Belgium, the 493d Fighter Squadron, 48th Fighter Group, moves
from Cambrai/Niergnies, France to St Trond with P-47s. In France, the 22d
Fighter Squadron, 36th Fighter Group, moves from Athis to Juvincourt with
P-47s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Bad weather causes the recall
of heavy bombers.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy during the night of 4/5
Oct A-20s bomb targets of opportunity in the battle area in the mountains S
of Bologna and N of the Arno River Valley; during the day weather grounds
medium bomber wings and the XII Fighter Command; the 8th Troop Carrier
Squadron, 62d Troop Carrier Group, moves from Galera Airfield to Malignano
Airfield with C-47s; the 85th Fighter Squadron, 79th Fighter Group, moves
from Southern France to Iesi with P-47s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): Saipan Island-based P-47s hit Pagan Island with
rockets and bombs; a B-24 bombs gun positions on the island.  B-25s from the
Gilbert Islands bomb runways and gun positions on Nauru Island while B-24s
from the Marshall Islands bomb an airfield at Moen Island, Truk Atoll and
during the night of 5/6 Oct strike Wake Island. The 28th Photographic
Reconnaissance Squadron, Seventh Air Force, based at Kipapa Airfield, Hawaii,
sends a detachment to Peleliu Island, Palau Islands with F-5s.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: B-24s bomb
airfields in the Kendari area on Celebes Island.  B-25s and P-38s hit
Kairatoe Airfield on Celebes Island, the town of Amboina on Ambon Island and
numerous coastal and shipping targets of opportunity in the Ambon-Ceram
Islands area. In New Guinea, A-20s, B-25s, and fighter-bombers attack Urarom,
the Simora Point area, Doom Island, Babo, Efman and Samate Airfields and
disposal areas; A-20s blast Japanese bivouacs and supply areas near Sarmi; HQ
54th Troop Carrier Wing moves from Nadzab to Biak Island. In the Moluccas
Islands, the 418th Night Fighter Squadron, V Fighter Command [attached to HQ
310th Bombardment Wing (Medium)], moves from Owi, Schouten Islands to Morotai
Island with P-61s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

05/0040Z OCT

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 21:10:16 -0400
From:    Emery Ford <eford@DELPHI.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: TACT:Could they have won ?

Hi everone,

On Tue, 04 Oct 94, Terry Moore wrote:

>I hadn't either. My comment to you about Stalin was derived from
>a well-made documentary that dealt with JS based on more info
>unearthed or discovered in the Moscow or KGB archives. At the time,
>and I still think this way, it was an extraordinary statement to
>make. I can only state what was said in this documentary and it was
>well-done and based on documentation recently found. At some point, I
>am thinking that all or most that we know about the war on the
>Eastern Front may have to be reinterpreted based on what is available
>in Moscow.

Wasn't this the show STALIN: PORTRAIT OF A BLOOD TYRANT?  It
occcasionally airs on the Discovery Channel as a multi-segmented
documentary.  It's a good program.

Emery

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 22:42:02 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <ben.frank@HIS.COM>
Subject: Re: ITALY IN WW2, MY $

I think that this may be the beginning of an interesting thread to discuss:
just really how good were the so-called "elites" of a country or a country's
armed services. In the case of the Marine Corps, we had Carlson's 2d Raider
Battalion on the west coast, comprised of volunteers who went through an
interview by Carlson or one of his officers. They were equipped with "unique"
equipment and adopted for their motto, "Gung Ho," work together, a motto
Carlson picked up when he was an observer with Mao Tse-tung's Eighth Route Army
on the Great March north in China. On the other hand, "Red Mike" Edson's 1st
Raider Battalion was just redesignated from his 1st Battalion, 5th Marines.
Many senior officers in the Corps didn
t (sorry) didn't think that there should be an elite within an elite, which
they thought, believed, and felt the Corps already was, and they didn't think
that Carlson's men could do anything that a regular infantry unit could already
do, or to put it differently, they thought that regular Marine infantry units
could be trained to do any of the raiding techniques, etc., that Carlson's
Raiders could do. While both battalions fought bravely in their individual
combat actions, it was in the New Georgia campaign, in heavy fighting under
difficult conditions, that it wa seen that the Raiders did not heavy enough
weapons to fight for sustained periods of time against well entrenched enemy,
and of course, the Raiders were now ground troops instead of raiders, the
raison d'etre (I threw that in for you, Sidney) for their existence was
nullified, and not long after they were reorganized into the new 4th Marines,
replacing that regiment which was forced to surrender on Corregidor. Troops
which have flashy gear, flashy uniforms, and all the rest in garrison, often
aren't worth the powder to blow them up in combat. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 23:02:01 -0400
From:    jmeierho@MAIL.NYSED.GOV
Subject: WEAP: Heinkel He-111Z -Reply

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Talking about the Heinkel He-111Z "Zwilling", I wonder if both fuselages
retained the flight control yoke for the pilots. I know the pilot was in the left
cockpit, but did the right cockpit have also kept the yoke?
(I mean, for emergencies, etc)? What was the role of the right cockpit
"pilot"?

Jorge Merino

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Quoting from Green _Warplanes of the Third Reich:

...
The pilot was situated in the portside fuselage with five throttles, full
instrumentation, and controls for the port undercarriage members and the
radiator flaps for the portside pair of engines.  The second pilot, situated in the
starboard fuselage, was provided with dual flying controls but no throttles, and
operated the starboard undercarriage members and the radiator flaps of the
centre engine and starboard pair of engines.  A mechanic, radio-operator and
gunner were accommodated in the port fuselage, and a mechanic an gunner
in the starboard fuselage, the second pilot acting as navigator.

John Meierhoffer                jmeierho@mail.nysed.gov
Albany New York         518 486 2390 (work)   283 4761 (home)

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 20:41:00 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: SS in combat

David Rising...
        Well, you're close, when you say there were SS involved in the
Polish border incident, which was a pretext for Germany's attack on Poland.
        The facts, however, are that a squad of SS/Gestapo took a group
of political prisoners from a Nazi concentration camp to a border
point close to Gleiwitz. The prisoners were forced to put on Polish uniforms,
then shot dead -- a bizarred faked "Polish attack" on the local radio
station. The following morning, Sept 1, 1939, German troops invaded Poland,
while Herr Hitler announced that it was in retaliation for "the attack by
Polish troops on the [German] Gleiwitz transmitter..."
        Regards -- Sidney Allinson.

--

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 3 Oct 1994 to 4 Oct 1994
***********************************************

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There are 72 messages totalling 2581 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. SS and SA (2)
  2. WWII-L Digest - 2 Oct 1994 to 3 Oct 1994
  3. HYPO:  The "Big" what-if?
  4. German Military Vehicles
  5. TACT:Downfall (2)
  6. POL: Economic causes of the war (4)
  7. WEAP:  F-82
  8. INF: 50 Years Ago - 06-OCT-1944
  9. POL:  Swiss Neutrality
 10. ITALY IN WW2, MY $ (2)
 11. HIST -- US plants in wartime Germany
 12. Speculation (2)
 13. WEAP:  F-82 -Reply
 14. Carlson's Raiders
 15. POL:Night of the Long Knives (6)
 16. WEAP:  Other uses of the Zwilling design concept
 17. WEAP:  F82 Revisited
 18. SS in combat (2)
 19. INF: More on Aero engines
 20. WEAP: Ar234C with E381 (2)
 21. Raid in Poland (6)
 22. Ref: Reunion of the 91st Bomb Group
 23. WEAP: Arado Ar-234C with E-381 (3)
 24. Switzerland in WWII
 25. Kristalnacht
 26. POL:Hiroshima (4)
 27. TRIV: Largest Group of Prisoners
 28. HYPO: The "Big" what-if? (2)
 29. POL: Economic Causes of the war
 30. Christie chassis & Wehrmacht
 31. WEAP: What is the BV151 - guess
 32. WEAP:  F82 Revisited -Reply
 33. WEAP:  BV151
 34. Fat Man question (4)
 35. TACT:Could they have won ? (2)
 36. Gustav Geraet
 37. WEAPON: Amphibious Landings and Tanks
 38. Help
 39. [INF] USAAF 2 OCT 44
 40. Italy in WW2, my $0.02--part II
 41. WEAP:aircraft comparisons
 42. [INF] USAAF 6 OCT 44
 43. Peleliu write-up

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 21:02:32 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: SS and SA

Greg...
        You are right in saying "SS shot a barnload of British prisoners
in 1940".
        The 'barnload' was, more correctly, 99 soldiers of The Royal Norfolk
Regiment. They were part of the rearguard action fought by part of the
British army defending the Dunkirk perimiter. At the French village of
Paradis, units of the SS Deaths Head Division was held up on May 27, 1939,
until the Norfolks' ammunition ran out. The British soldiers showed white
towels on rifle muzzles and shouted they were surrendering. However, when some
of the Tommies walked out of the barn they had defended, the SS opened fire with
machine-guns. A second attempt at surrender seemed successful, and the British
troops filed out, unarmed. The Germans ordered the 99 British soldiers to
walk into an open field, and kneel down.  After being searched, and beaten with
rifle-buts, the Tommies were marched in front of the barn wall, and mowed down
by SS machine guns. The SS then bayonetted the murdered Norfolks for good
measure.
That day, the SS butchered 97 British POWs. Incredibly, two men survived. One
of them, Private Pooley, was so severley wounded he gave himself up to the
Germans a few days later. Clearly they did not know how he'd been hurt, and
the severity of his wounds enabled him to be repatriated to England two
years later. His is tesitmony, plus that of the other survivor, O'Callaghan,
helped the investigation into the atrocity, and led to trial of the SS
officer -- Captain Fritz Knochlein -- in Hamburg in 1945, where he was
condemned to death and hanged.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 02:39:34 EDT
From:    Cassady Craft <CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
Subject: Re: WWII-L Digest - 2 Oct 1994 to 3 Oct 1994

Terry and others, maybe the professor was referring to the Soviet adaptation
of the Christie chasis for their tanks.  Perhaps with the Germans training
in Lipetsk, they acquired some of these.  Just a guess, hopefully enough
to get someone who knows more to weigh in.

Cassady Craft
Department of Political Science
University of Georgia
e-mail CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
or
CCRAFT@LANL.GOV

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 03:27:52 EDT
From:    Cassady Craft <CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
Subject: HYPO:  The "Big" what-if?

Very simple hypothetical question:  Could Germany have won the Second World
War?  I expect reasonable answers, well thought out, ably argued, and with
brilliant, witty, and inciteful prose!

(No, this is not a trick question)


Thought for the day:  The easy way is always mined.

Cassady Craft
Department of Political Science
University of Georgia
e-mail CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
or
CCRAFT@LANL.GOV

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 09:01:05 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <smb@NETMGRS.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: German Military Vehicles

Greetings Bill& everyone!

The Royal Tank Museum in Bovington is not afiliated to the Imperial War
Museum. I think Bovington is an army base anyway so maybe the army keeps
the vehicles as backup! FYI, the Imperial War Museum comprises the main museum
site in London, HMS Belfast, the Cabinet War rooms, and the RAF museum at
Duxford, near Cambridge.

The idea of tank rides sounds good to me!

/steve baldwin
smb@netmgrs.co.uk

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 10:14:48 +0200
From:    "A.Bouis" <dev24@BOS.WTK.SURESNES.MARBEN.FR>
Subject: TACT:Downfall

Mike writes :
"In 1941-42 the Germans had two Panzer divisions in Africa (they started Barbarossa with 19 in the first wave !). Likewise, there were only two fighter geschwaders active in France (JG2 and JG26)"

Thanks Mike for your response.
Your estimate, though right on paper, looks only at the surface of the iceberg.

The Germans left 50 divisions (42 ? I must check) to guard Europe against England, and 1,500 aircraft. He sent 2,000 to 2,500 to Russia (depending on sources) and in December, withdrew Kesselring's 2nd Air Fleet to the Meditterranean.
For the tanks you are right, the bulk was in Russia.

Also, you will have to count all the Kriegsmarine naval and air assets to be assigned against England. Admittedly they couldn't have played as decisive a role against Russia, though ships played an important role in the fighting for cities such as Leningrad and Sevastopol, and they could have been trained as infantry, as in 1945.
And in Barbarossa, the German Army suffered from a dire lack of infantry reserves.
U-boat production nevertheless diverted great resources from other productions, such as tanks.

Arnaud.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 10:25:42 +0200
From:    "A.Bouis" <dev24@BOS.WTK.SURESNES.MARBEN.FR>
Subject: POL: Economic causes of the war

Here is the first installment in what I would like to be a general discussion of J.F.C. Fuller's writings. It is quite long (took hours to type.. I hope it will arouse interest), so skip it if not interested.
This is the first extract I type, "Economic Origins of the War".

I would like to have the thoughts of the scholarly people here, how much they agree/disagree with the author. I do not personally have a personal opinion of my own, and would like to have one. If you disagree, I would like you to refute the FACTS, not fall down to facility by saying "the Author is so and so and so and is wrong", thus paying tribute to your true scholarly qualities. Please fight a Historian with facts, not feelings.

Please also note that though I am typing this passage because of the way it strays from commonly taught history, Fuller by no means gives economics as the only causes of the war. The quote is only a small part of his long chapter, "The Rise of the Third Reich".

"A Military History of the Western World", Vol. III, p. 368-370
Start of the quoting.....

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
(Follows considerations on Hitler, as a semi-genial, semi-paranoid person, a "Dr Jeckyll & Mr Hyde").

Hitler held that, as long as the international monetary system was based on gold, a nation which cornered gold could impose its will on those who lacked it. This could be done by drying up their sources of exchange, and thereby compelling them to accept loans on interest in order to distribute their wealth - their production. He said : "The community of the nation does not live by the fictitious value to money, but by the real production which in its turn gives value to money. This production is the real cover of the currency, and not a bank or a safe full of gold."
(Mr Churchill, who, as Chancellor of the Exchequer, reintroduced the gold standard in Britain in 1925, in 1931 held identical views. He said "If the progress of the human race in this age of almost terrifying expansion to be arbitrarily barred and regulated by fortuitous discoveries of gold mines ?...Are we to be told that human civilization and society would have been impossible if gold had not happened to be an element in the composition of the globe ?...these are absurdities; but they are becoming dangers and deadly absurdities....I therefore point to this evil and to the search for the methods of remedying it as the first, second and the third of all the problems which should command and rivet our thoughts.")

He decided: (1) To refuse foreign interest-bearing loans, and base German currency on production instead of on gold. (2) To obtain imports by direct exchange of goods - barter - and subsidize exports when necessary. (3) To put a stop to what was called "freedom of the exchanges" - that is, license to gamble in currencies and shift private fortunes from one country to another acording to the political situation. And (4) to create money when men and material were available for work instead of running into debt by borrowing it.
Because the life of international finance depended upon the issue of interest-bearing loans to nations in economic distress, Hitler's economics spelt its ruination. If he were allowed to succeed, other nations would certainly follow his example, and should a time come when all non-gold-holding governments exchange goods for goods, not only would borrowing cease and gold lose its power, but the money-lenders would have to close shop.
This financial pistol was pointed more particularly at the United States, because they held the bulk of the world's supply of gold, and because their mass-production system necessitated the export of about 10 per cent. of their products in order to avoid unemployment. Further, because the brutalities meted out to German Jews by Hitler understandably had antagonized American Jewish financiers, six months after Hitler became Chancellor, Samuel Untermyer, a wealthy New York attorney, threw down the challenge. He proclaimed a "holy war" against National Socialism and called for an economic boycott of German goods, shipping, and services. Cordell Hull, American Secretary of State, under the terms of the Trade Agreement Act of 1934, insisted that American foreign trade should not be undercut by exchange contyrols, government monopolies, and the barter system.
Between 1933 and 1936, Hitler had reduced German unemployment from six millions to one, and prosperity had so far returned that, like Arthur Balfour in 1907, in 1936 Winston Churchill is reported to have said to General Robert E.Wood of America: "Germany is getting too strong and we must smash her." Then in September, 1937, a new American depression set in and developed with such startling rapidity that, on October 19, the stock market collapsed, and in the following month the census of unemployment showed about 11 million totally unemplyed and 5,500,000 partially so. Something had to be done to divert public attention from this desperate situation - especially as the presidential elections were impending - and on October 5, at Chicago, President Roosevelt delivered his notorious "Quarantine Speech". He spoke of "a haunting fear of calamity...the present reign of terror...the very foundations of civilization are seriously threatened...let no one imagine that America will esc!
ape, that the Western Hemisphere w
ill not be attacked", and that the easiest measure to enforce moral standards was an international quarantine againt agressors. Soon after this the main agressor was named. Mr. Bernard Baruch told General George C. Marshall that "We are going to lick that fellow Hitler. He isn't going to get away with it". With what ? Presumably his barter system, for in September, 1939, Baruch released a report of an interview with the President in which he said: "If we keep our prices down, there is no reason why we shouldn't get the customers from the belligerent nations that they have had to drop because of the war. In that event Germany's barter system will be destroyed".
In Great Britain a similar challenge to the barter system was in full blast, and on March 9, 1939, the Polish Ambassador in London reported to his Government that Mr. R. S. Hudson, the Parliamentary Secretary for Overseas Trade, had said to him: "The British Government were...determined not to abandon a single European market and not to renounce their economic advantages in favour of the German Reich...Today we are making negociations in the economic sphere and shattering the German barter system." So fiercely was the economic war waged that Robert E. Sherwood records in The White House Parers of Harry L. Hopkins that, in April, 1939, the acting military attache in the American embassy at Berlin reported: "The present situation when viewed in the light of an active war which Germany is now in the process of waging becomes clear. It is an economic war in which Germany is fighting for her very existence. Germany must have markets for her goods or die and Germany will not die".
When we consider these economic causes of the Second World War it must be borne in mind, like with those of the first, that the struggle between the two economic systems is not a question of right and wrong, but of survival values. It was no more a question of right and wrong for loan-capitalism to fight for its supremacy than it was for Hitler to fight for his barter system. Each was vital to the party concerned; both were the product of trade competition - the curse born of the Industrial Revolution.

Beside this cause of the war, between 1933 and 1939 other helped to inflame the international situation, and of these the most important was the violence with which Hitler set out to carry out his programme of German regeneration. ..... (follow many other pages on the pre-war events)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
(end of quoted material)


Arnaud.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 07:32:04 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: WEAP:  F-82

     >Maybe I'm confused, but I cannot for the life of me figure out why
     >such a craft was designed outside of a barroom...

     >(I know I show my ignorance, there HAD to be a reason!)

     >Steven E. Pudlo  - sep@trctc.commnet.edu |


     Why an F-82?

          It was an aircraft with excellent performance (Top speed of 465
     MPH at 21,000 FT) that could be made using available tooling , jigs,
     skills & parts (P51-F fuselage halves and P51-H wings).  Production
     could start up almost immediately with minimal impact on other A/C
     production.

          It had a combat range of 2,000+ miles, extendible by drop tank,
     ample to escort bombers from Saipan/Tinian to the Home Islands and
     return.

          It was armed with 6 .50 Cal machine guns in the center section,
     and could carry a pod containing an additional 8 .50 Cals in a
     centerline pod.  (Adequate to deal with even the most heavily armored
     Japanese interceptors.)

          Two pilots available to share the work of the 6 to 8 hour
     flights.

          Two engines, to allow an aircraft to return to base from over the
     thin reaches of the South Pacific if one should fail.

     All this even before someone thought to make a night fighter out of
     it.

     And besides, it was a da-- sight more attractive than the BV-151.



        Steve L. New                     .............................
        Weapon System Manager            .............................
        Battalion Countermine Set        ............ /\ .............
        U.S. Army TACOM AMSTA-IM-FR1D    ............/  \.............
        DSN: 786-5403  FAX: 786-7788     ............    .............
        EMAIL  NEWST@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL   ............    .............

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 04:39:05 -0700
From:    John Davis <jbd@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 06-OCT-1944

On 06-OCT-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - An offensive is begun to clear the Scheldt estuary; with the
goal of making it possible for the Allies to use the port of Antwerp. There is
one German division left manning the small port of Breskens, south of
Flushing. The Canadian II Corps opens the offensive with the "battle of the
polders", an attack against Breskens fought in mud and water. North of the
Leopold Canal they establish two small bridgeheads. German resistance is very
strong and the Canadians are forced to committ substantial reinforcements to
hold the two bridgeheads. The XIX Corps (US 1st Army) continues the battle
around Aachen and at Geilenkirchen on the Siegfried Line.

Peleliu - Operations on Peleliu come to a standstill.

Angaur - Artillery fire is resumed against the Japanese at the extreme
northwest end of the island.

The Homefront
-------------
Air Cargoe To China - The War Department has announced that more than
46,000,000 pounds of military cargo was flown across the Himalaya "hump" from
India to China during one recent month by the Army Air Force Transport
Command.

World Series - The St. Louis Browns win the third game of the World Series
6-2.

31 Guilty Of Polygamy - Twenty men and 11 women have been convicted by a Salt
Lake City district court jury of conspiring to preach and practice polygamy.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "Facts On File Yearbook 1944,
Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.netcom.com in directory /pub/jbd or
through the WWW at URL: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis     jbd@netcom.com      WWW: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/jbd/ww2.html
Cary, N.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 07:48:02 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: POL:  Swiss Neutrality

     >To my knowledge, international law was circumvented. This whole
     >issue brings to mind the question of just how neutral was Switzerland
     >really.

     >Your thoughts?

     >Terry


     Terry,

     Of course the return of the ME-110 crew was a violation of Swiss
     neutrality.  But it was such a small violation, and resulted in such a
     gain for the country (6 new fighters and the lifting of German
     pressure) that, I'm sure, the Swiss took the realpolitik view.  What
     impact could two fliers have had on the war effort?  At least they
     destroyed, rather than returned, the aircraft.

     When push comes to shove, a government is going to act in its national
     interest, regardless of the "Rules of War".

     In day to day terms, however, it was in the best interest of the Swiss
     to maintain neutrality.  (It's kind of like secretly dealing with
     terrorists to buy the release of hostages when official dogma is that
     you don't deal with terrorists.  If no one finds out, you can't get
     hurt.)


        Steve L. New                     .............................
        Weapon System Manager            .............................
        Battalion Countermine Set        ............ /\ .............
        U.S. Army TACOM AMSTA-IM-FR1D    ............/  \.............
        DSN: 786-5403  FAX: 786-7788     ............    .............
        EMAIL  NEWST@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL   ............    .............

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 04:52:50 -0700
From:    John Davis <jbd@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: ITALY IN WW2, MY $

> I think that this may be the beginning of an interesting thread to discuss:
> just really how good were the so-called "elites" of a country or a country's
> armed services. In the case of the Marine Corps, we had Carlson's 2d Raider
> Battalion on the west coast, comprised of volunteers who went through an
> interview by Carlson or one of his officers. They were equipped with "unique"

Regarding Carlson's Raiders, I hate to admit it but most of what I know
about them comes from W.E.B. Griffin's "The Corps" fictional series.
Griffin talks about that the majority of the Marine officer cadre didn't
think much of Carlson or his Raiders because he had a very "democratic"
view of the relationship between officers and enlisted men. You almost got
from the book that they viewed him as almost "communistic" in nature. The
books also brings out that Carlson was a favorite of Roosevelt, so that is
why he was able to create the Raiders. I wonder how much of this is actual
truth or fiction?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis     jbd@netcom.com      WWW: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/jbd/ww2.html
Cary, N.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 07:58:32 -0400
From:    Warren Thompson <THOMPSON@ACAD.LVC.EDU>
Subject: HIST -- US plants in wartime Germany

F Y I to Jim Curry et al.: On at least one occasion US planes with ITT
electronic equipment on board bombed ITT plants in Germany. A irony of war.

-- Warren Thompson

thompson@acad.lvc.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 08:11:43 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Speculation

     > Very simple hypothetical question:  Could Germany have won the
     > Second World War?  I expect reasonable answers, well thought out,
     > ably argued, and with brilliant, witty, and inciteful prose!


     Cassady,

     Please define the limits of the term "won" i.e. accomplishing no less
     than ...?



        Steve L. New                     .............................
        Weapon System Manager            .............................
        Battalion Countermine Set        ............ /\ .............
        U.S. Army TACOM AMSTA-IM-FR1D    ............/  \.............
        DSN: 786-5403  FAX: 786-7788     ............    .............
        EMAIL  NEWST@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL   ............    .............

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 08:36:59 -0400
From:    jmeierho@MAIL.NYSED.GOV
Subject: WEAP:  F-82 -Reply

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
     Why an F-82?

          It was an aircraft with excellent performance (Top speed of 465
     MPH at 21,000 FT) that could be made using available tooling , jigs,
     skills & parts (P51-F fuselage halves and P51-H wings).  Production
     could start up almost immediately with minimal impact on other A/C
     production.

          It had a combat range of 2,000+ miles, extendible by drop tank,
     ample to escort bombers from Saipan/Tinian to the Home Islands and
     return.

          It was armed with 6 .50 Cal machine guns in the center section,
     and could carry a pod containing an additional 8 .50 Cals in a
     centerline pod.  (Adequate to deal with even the most heavily armored
     Japanese interceptors.)

          Two pilots available to share the work of the 6 to 8 hour
     flights.

          Two engines, to allow an aircraft to return to base from over the
     thin reaches of the South Pacific if one should fail.

     All this even before someone thought to make a night fighter out of
     it.

     And besides, it was a da-- sight more attractive than the BV-151.



        Steve L. New                     .............................
        Weapon System Manager            .............................
        Battalion Countermine Set        ............ /\ .............
        U.S. Army TACOM AMSTA-IM-FR1D    ............/  \.............
        DSN: 786-5403  FAX: 786-7788     ............    .............
        EMAIL  NEWST@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL   ............    .............

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

But how maneuverable was the F-82?  If it were pitted against first class single
engine figthers (admittedly in short supply in Japan in 1945) would it have met
the fate of the Bf110 over Great Britain in 1940 where they ended up being
escorted by Bf109s?  Or would it have been like the P-38 over Germany a few
years later, an a/c that could not really stand up to the Germans?

p.s.  What is the BV151?

John Meierhoffer                jmeierho@mail.nysed.gov
Albany New York         518 486 2390 (work)   283 4761 (home)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 08:43:44 EDT
From:    STeven Vest <SVEST@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU>
Subject: Re: ITALY IN WW2, MY $

Ben:

    When you say the 1st Marine Raider Batallion was reorganized into the
4th Marines, are you saying they were reorganized into the 4th Marine Raider
Batallion?  I've been meaning to do some research on the 4th Marine Raiders
and I'd be grateful for any sources you (or anyone else) might reommend beyond
the obvious.

    Best,
      STeven Vest

------------------------------------------------------------------------
STEVEN VEST            *      "TWO BROKEN TIGERS, ON FIRE IN THE NIGHT,
PURDY/KRESGE LIBRARY   *       FLICKER THEIR SOULS TO THE WIND."
WAYNE STATE UNIVERSITY *              AL STEWART "ROAD TO MOSCOW"
SVEST@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU *                    _PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE_
________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 09:16:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Carlson's Raiders

 John Davis writes:

 >The books (W.E.B. Griffin's THE CORPS) also brings out that Carlson was
 >a favorite of Roosevelt, so that is why he was able to create the Raiders.
 >I wonder how much of this is actual truth or fiction?

 >John Davis     jbd@netcom.com      WWW: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/jbd/ww2.html

Wasn't one of Roosevelt's sons involved with the Raiders?

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  jem3@donuts0.bellcore.com  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 08:47:45 EST
From:    coon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU
Subject: POL:Night of the Long Knives

        Does anyone on the list know when the phrases "Night of the Long
Knives" and "Krystallnacht" came into use?  Did the Nazis coin them or
was it the foreign press?
Thanks,
*****************************************************
Brad Coon                     Windows: the operating
COON@IPFWCVAX.BITNET          system for people who
COON@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU    think even a Macintosh
                              is too fast.

Remember, only YOU can prevent political correctness!
******************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 10:01:14 EDT
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <sparks@ALPHA.CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: WEAP:  Other uses of the Zwilling design concept

There was at least one other "zwilling", or twin-fuselage aircraft
designed during WWII, the General Aircraft Twin Hotspur.  The
Hotspur was a combat glider, designed in response to the German
success at Fort Eban Emael.  It was the first combat glider to be
designed by the Allies, and its original form, thought was given
to towing the gliders to a high enough altitude over England that
they could then glide across the English Channel.  The Hotspur Mk.I
was accordingly given a 62 ft. wingspan, intended to produce a
24:1 glide slope, while carrying eight troops.  The first one flew
on 5 November 1940.

Deciding to use the Hotspur as either a paratroop carrier, or
releasing them at low altitude over the drop zone (with a much
steeper glide angle desired), the Mark II featured a wingspan of
only 46 feet.  18 Hotspur Mk.I and 907 of the Mk.II were built,
plus about 50 of a training version, the Mk. III.  None were used
in combat, all being relegated to the training role.

A single Twin Hotspur was built using two Hotspur fuselages, and
with a 58 ft. wingspan.  It was conceived as a means of lifting
greater loads.  However, given the Hotspur's rather trim fuselage
design, bulkier items such as motorcycles or light trucks still
could not be carried, and the idea was dropped.

This information was extracted from James Mrazek's "Fighting
Gliders of WWII".

Pre-WWII, the Savoia-Marchetti S.55 flying boat, as used by General
Balbo in his massed flights across the Atlantic in 1931 and 1933,
featured a twin fuselage also.

Curtiss also produced an unusual twin, the twin P-40.  This aircraft
was a conversion from a P-40C and featured twin engines.  Retaining
a single fuselage, the nose was truncated and two Merlin engines
(as used on the P-40F) were installed on rather large nacelles on
the top of the wings.  There is a photo of this aircraft in the
Squadron/Signal "P-40 in Action" book, but with no word on whether
it actually flew.

Dennis E. Sparks
sparks@alpha.caer.uky.edu
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 10:14:41 +0059
From:    Ira H Krakow <ikrakow@WORLD.STD.COM>
Subject: Re: POL:Night of the Long Knives

On Wed, 5 Oct 1994 coon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU wrote:

>         Does anyone on the list know when the phrases "Night of the Long
> Knives" and "Krystallnacht" came into use?  Did the Nazis coin them or
> was it the foreign press?
> Thanks,
> *****************************************************
> Brad Coon                     Windows: the operating
> COON@IPFWCVAX.BITNET          system for people who
> COON@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU    think even a Macintosh
>                               is too fast.
>
> Remember, only YOU can prevent political correctness!
> ******************************************************
>

Brad,

  The Night of the Long Knives occurred in 1934 when Hitler was
consolidating power.  His biggest rivals were an internal Nazi
group called the SA, headed by Ernst Rohm.  The SA was essentially
a private army headed by Rohm, and posed a potential threat to Hitler.
Rohm was also a homosexual.  Hitler, and his ally Heinrich Himmler of
the SS, concocted a scheme to have Rohm discovered in flagrante delicto
and assassinated him.  While they were at it, they assassinated a lot
of the top SA brass, thus eliminating this group as a rival.  Apparently
knives were the weapon of choice.  The elimination of the SA, along
with the Reichstag fire, were the key events in Hitler's consolidation
of power.

   Kristallnacht occurred on November 9, 1938.  On that night ("the night
of crystal") the Nazis burned most of the synagogues in Germany and arrested
thousands of Jews.  This was the most public of overtly antisemitic acts
committed by the regime.  Previously, perhaps it would have taken some
research to grasp the Nazi's goal with regard to the Jews.  After
Kristallnacht, the goal was quite apparent, even though the setting up
of the extermination camps and the Final Solution had to wait until
the Wannsee Conference in 1942, when the was was in full swing.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 10:31:06 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: WEAP:  F82 Revisited

     > But how maneuverable was the F-82?  If it were pitted against first
     > class single engine fighters (admittedly in short supply in Japan in
     > 1945) would it have met the fate of the Bf110 over Great Britain in
     > 1940 where they ended up being escorted by Bf109s?  Or would it have
     > been like the P-38 over Germany a few years later, an a/c that could
     > not really stand up to the Germans?

     > p.s.  What is the BV151?

     > John Meierhoffer                jmeierho@mail.nysed.gov Albany New
     > York         518 486 2390 (work)   283 4761 (home)


     Lets not get caught in a WW-I dogfight frame of mind.  Both the
     Japanese and the Italians discovered, to their dismay, that fighter
     maneuverability wasn't as important as speed, rate of climb, and
     FIREPOWER.

     Neither the F4F Wildcat nor the P-38 Lightning could maneuver with the
     A6M2 Zero, but fighter tactics were developed for both aircraft that
     gave them high positive kill ratios against their more maneuverable
     opponents.

     And speaking of the P-38, I don't know of any source that claim that
     it was "...an a/c that could not really stand up to the Germans..."
     With the exception of the original P-300 Lend Lease aircraft sent to
     Britain (No superchargers and no contra-rotating propellers) the P-38
     had an exceptional record against the Germans.  It was the Luftwaffe
     that named it the Fork-Tailed Devil.

     P-38s got sent primarily to the Pacific not because of any problems
     dealing with German A/C, but because the twin engine design was
     preferred in an operating theater filled with lots of water between
     tiny islands.

     Lets face it, the ME-110 was just a dog, and using it's performance
     against Spitfires and Hurricanes to judge the F-82's against a Zero or
     a Tony is meaningless.

     I'll leave the BV-151 for someone else.


        Steve L. New                     .............................
        Weapon System Manager            .............................
        Battalion Countermine Set        ............ /\ .............
        U.S. Army TACOM AMSTA-IM-FR1D    ............/  \.............
        DSN: 786-5403  FAX: 786-7788     ............    .............
        EMAIL  NEWST@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL   ............    .............

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 15:56:54 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <smb@NETMGRS.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: POL:Night of the Long Knives

Ira H Krakow writes...
>   Kristallnacht occurred on November 9, 1938.  On that night ("the night
>of crystal") the Nazis burned most of the synagogues in Germany and arrested
>thousands of Jews.  This was the most public of overtly antisemitic acts
>committed by the regime.  Previously, perhaps it would have taken some
>research to grasp the Nazi's goal with regard to the Jews.  After
>Kristallnacht, the goal was quite apparent, even though the setting up
>of the extermination camps and the Final Solution had to wait until
>the Wannsee Conference in 1942, when the was was in full swing.

I have heard that Churchill, during his "wilderness years"
 encouraged people to read Mein Kampf
in order for them to find out exactly what Hitler was up to. I have
not read it, so would be interested to know what it has to say
(if anything) about the Final Solution

Steve Baldwin
smb@netmgrs.co.uk

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 11:04:36 -0400
From:    David Rising <drising@ACS.BU.EDU>
Subject: Re: SS in combat

On Tue, 4 Oct 1994, Sidney Allinson wrote:

> David Rising...
>         Well, you're close, when you say there were SS involved in the
> Polish border incident, which was a pretext for Germany's attack on Poland.
>         The facts, however, are that a squad of SS/Gestapo took a group
> of political prisoners from a Nazi concentration camp to a border
> point close to Gleiwitz. The prisoners were forced to put on Polish uniforms,
> then shot dead -- a bizarred faked "Polish attack" on the local radio
> station. The following morning, Sept 1, 1939, German troops invaded Poland,
> while Herr Hitler announced that it was in retaliation for "the attack by
> Polish troops on the [German] Gleiwitz transmitter..."
>         Regards -- Sidney Allinson.

Oh yes, I remember now :-). It was, however, the SS who shot them wasn't
it? That would still make them the first to fire in the war. Cheers,
David Risign

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 10:21:34 -0500
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: INF: More on Aero engines

>
> I believe Hitler said 'the Americans can produce fast cars but they'll never be
> able to produce the number of airplanes and tanks they plan.' (definitely a
> paraphrase!!).  That was not just blindness on his part but an example of the
> cultural blindness that existed throughout Europe at the time.  BWK

Goering once told Rommel while discussing the Torch landing that the
only things the Americans could produce was razor blades.  Rommel
replied "We could do with some of those 'razor blades'".

Ciao, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 11:19:45 -0400
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: WEAP: Ar234C with E381

        The October issue of the Squadron Mail Order catalog offers
a model by DML in 1/72 scale of an Arado Ar 234C with an E381 Julia
Parasite fighter (page 2).  These are two peculiar looking aircraft!
The Ar 234C seems to have four jet engines, two under each wing in two
nacelles blobbed together.  The E381 looks like a rocket plane and has
tiger-shark nose art more common to Allied aircraft.  (This impressions
are from the line art from the catalog so I could be way off.)  Can any
of the resident aircraft specialists offer any info on these planes?
Thanks.
--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
Look, when we was in the bocage country, we was assaulted by them Tigers!
You know what I mean by assaulted, hunh?!  Well, I mean *assaulted*!!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 10:25:18 CST
From:    "SCHERRER, TIM" <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Raid in Poland

The raid on the radio station that kicked off the Polish campaign--wasn;
t that conducted not by SS but by Brandenburgers???  Does anyone else
remember this besides me???  TAS                                        as
                                                                        ders.


                                                                        ww2.html










************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 10:29:10 EST
From:    coon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU
Subject: Re: POL:Night of the Long Knives

Just to clarify, I do know what the references are to, I just need
to know when, where and how the specific terms came into use.  In
other words, did something occur along the lines of the German public
getting up on July 1, 1934 and reading _Last night was the Night of the
Long Knives_.
*****************************************************
Brad Coon                     Windows: the operating
COON@IPFWCVAX.BITNET          system for people who
COON@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU    think even a Macintosh
                              is too fast.

Remember, only YOU can prevent political correctness!
******************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 11:17:02 EDT
From:    William Lippert <WL1958A@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject: Re: POL:Night of the Long Knives

On Wed, 5 Oct 1994 10:14:41 +0059 Ira H Krakow said:
>Brad,
>
>  The Night of the Long Knives occurred in 1934 when Hitler was
>consolidating power.  His biggest rivals were an internal Nazi
>group called the SA, headed by Ernst Rohm.  The SA was essentially
>a private army headed by Rohm, and posed a potential threat to Hitler.
>Rohm was also a homosexual.  Hitler, and his ally Heinrich Himmler of
>the SS, concocted a scheme to have Rohm discovered in flagrante delicto
>and assassinated him.  While they were at it, they assassinated a lot
>of the top SA brass, thus eliminating this group as a rival.  Apparently
>knives were the weapon of choice.  The elimination of the SA, along
>with the Reichstag fire, were the key events in Hitler's consolidation
>of power.
>

   It was not Hitler and Himmler who plotted the neutralization of the SA
and the elimination of the top brass, but Himmler and Goering.  Hitler was
very close friends with Roehm, and it took some 24-48 hours for him to decide
that Roehm should be eliminated.  Himmler disliked, among other things, that
the SS was subordinate to the SA.  It was a struggle for power on his part.
Goering, also, desired more power.  As for Himmler, some have maintained that
his swing to support Hitler and fight Roehm was taken at the last minute -
it could have been the other way around.  Additionally, it is more or less
proven that the plot was concocted by such personalities as Rheinhard
Heydrich, for his own ends.  The fact that Roehm was homosexual, however,
had little bearing as to the motives of the purge, though it was used as
an explanation to the public.  Hitler had been aware of the top SA's homesexual
tendencies for quite since the very early days of the 1920's.

Sources: Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, Shirer,
         Himmler, Peter Padfield
         Reinhard Heydrich, Hitler's Most Evil Henchman.  Charles Wighton


William Lippert
The American University

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 11:55:22 EDT
From:    Cassady Craft <CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Speculation

Definition of "won the war:"  Brought about a favorable conclusion, either
in the military or political sphere, of the hostilities before being
occupied.

Now define favorable:  Germany not giving up territory or assets considered
vital. (this allows compromise on areas not vital).

Now define vital:  (Good god, I can't even do this for the US anymore!)
_Lebensraum_ cannot be discounted.  Read _Mein Kampf_ for Hitler's definition
of vital interests.  Areas considered necessary for military and economic
security (by Hitler, of course).  This probably means (at the very least)
Ukraine, the Rumanian oil fields in friendly hands, France, Poland, the Baltic
States.

Hope this helps some.

Cassady Craft
Department of Political Science
University of Georgia
e-mail CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
or
CCRAFT@LANL.GOV

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 11:09:55 CST
From:    "SCHERRER, TIM" <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: Ref: Reunion of the 91st Bomb Group

I had the pleasure of attending the 91st Bomb Group reunion in Oklahoma
City, OK the weekend before this past one.  I met many interesting vets ght
and learned a lot about the 91st Group.  I attended as part of the WWII rested
Airman's Preservation Society--we are recreating the 91st Group for our ts
displays.

The reunion started on a Wednesday, and I arrived late Friday night--the
vets got to tour several active duty aircraft--such as an AWACS at Tinke
r AFB as well as tour other sites around the city.

The WWIIAPS set up the memorabilia room which included our standard disp
lay of things plus many items donated on the spot by the vets.  We had
9 APS members there, and the room usually  had just as many vets and
spouces in it.

Interesting things I picked up--Lt Bill Winchell--a waist gunner of the
Memphis Belle recently died--within the past three months.  We spoke
with some of the group members--they never called her the Memphis Belle
but always as Morgan's plane or Morgan's crew.  One gentleman told me
that Wyler, who filmed the original documentary, had actually picked
another aircraft and crew to be the focus of his film--one piloted by
an O'Neal--however after shooting much footage of the crew they were
lost on their 24th mission.  Wyler had to pick another crew and chose
the 'Belle.  They weren;t the first crew to complete their 25 missions
although they were one of the first few to do so.  O'Neal went on to sur
 vive the war and had a daughter who was also in a few films--her name
was Jennifer O'Neal.  Another big name in the 91st was a pilot named
Sherwin Williams of the paint company--he was related to the family.

I heard a terriffic story from a gentleman about the 91st Group's last
mission--the particular squadron (can;t remember which one--they had
the 322, 323, 324, and 401st squadrons) was lead for the formation and
the squadron CO was leading the formation--they were in heavy flack over
the target, and something went wrong and the lead plane didn't drop his
bombs, but the 2nd lead had the back-up bombardier who pickled on the
target, so the rest of the squadron and group pickled as well.  The
squadron CO in the lead aircraft didn;t know the rest of the planes
had pickled, so he ordered a 360 degree run to make another pass at the
target--despite the fact that all the other planes except the lead and o
ne other had no bombs.  Well--the aircrews of the rest of the planes
decided to follow the rest of the group back to Bassingbourne and not
venture another run through a heavy flak target.  They kept radio silenc
e and went with the group.

The squadron CO was then executing his 360 degree turn for another run
at the  target when he looked back and saw only one other B-17 with
him.  They pickled their bombs and made a mad dash to catch up with the
rest of the group.  When they got on the ground--the squadron CO threw
a fit with the aircrews, and ordered them to complete 5 more missions
than required for rotation.  The crews were pretty upset about this
however the joke ended up being on the squadron CO because that was the
last mission of the war.

The 91st was featured in an article in National Geographic and had a quo
te from a diary of a gunner.  I met this man and he autographed the
National Geographic edition I had.  I also picked up an autographed
copy of "COMBAT he wrote"  which is the story of a 91st Bombardier who
ended up being the senior Bombardier in the 8th AF--his name was Charlie
 although his last name escapes me.

There is an excellent book out now about USAAF uniforms now called "Silv
er Wings, Pinks and Greens" which is probably destined to be the bible
on USAAF uniforms in the future--it just hit the racks recently--it is
expensive but I highly recommend it.

Our memorabilia room was a big hit, with us receiving many donations fro
m the vets.  We also received as a donation from the 91st BG Memorial
Association their large mural prints of photos from Bassingbourne and
of COL Wray giing the now famous "rigid digit" symbol he created.

One especially interesting thing we saw were some color 91st BG mission
photos taken by a radio operator in the group--they are stunning.  The
photographer will not sell them for profit but he has given the WWIIAPS
permission to print them as postcards and sell them as a fund raiser.

Other interesting notes--the 91st had an aircraft built from two shot
up planes--what was unusual was the front half was silver, and back
half green.  They also had a plane, "Nine-O-Nine" that flew 140 missions
without a turnback or a crew injury.

The vets would look through their photo albumns and they knew every sing
le mission they flew plain as day--like it happened yesterday.  They wou
d look at pictures and could tell you exactly what happened to each
aircraft.  One gentleman had even drafted a section of the airfield
showing which aircraft were parked where, and what the different sheds
on the parking ramp were used for.  I am supposed to be getting a copy o
f a radar map showing flak positions over Europe from a gentleman who
will use a copy  camera.  I am excited about this--for it is a major
boon for building my reproduction S-2 shop.

I spoke with a gentleman about the staff planning time for missions
and he said they got the mission alerts early in the evening, and
the fragorders at about 11pm-1am, and briefed them at 6am usually.
That isn;t much time!

If I remember more signifcant things I'll post them later.  The
highlight of the weekend was us presenting the colors at the closing
banquet.  After the dinner there was dancing, and we received dozens
of handshakes and pats on the back from the vets and spouces.  The
spouces were really interesting because they would see us walk by and
a little smile would appear on their faces--I'm not sure what went
through their minds, but it had to be good.  TAS

************************************************************************
*  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
*  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
*  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
*  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
*  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 12:10:27 EDT
From:    William Lippert <WL1958A@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Raid in Poland

    No, the original raid was not executed by the Brandenburgers.  In fact, it
was not precisely executed by the SS; that is to say that is not being specific
enough.  Operation Canned Goods was directed by Alfred Naujocks, personal
favorite of Reinhard Heydrich.  Thus it fell under the domain of the Sicher
dienst (or something like that), the SS intelligence branch (SD).  Additionally
, Heinrich Muller, head of the Gestapo, also provided assistance.  But the
Brandenburgers did not, particularly since they were under Wermacht command.
   The Brandenbergers were an operations section of Wilhelm Canaris' Abwher,
intelligence branch of the Wermacht.  All the Abwher did in Canned Goods was
provide the Polish uniforms used on the raid.


Sources: Himmler: Reichsfuhrer SS
         Wilhelm Canris; by Honze

William Lippert,
The American University

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 12:26:37 CCS
From:    Jorge Merino <jem@VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject: WEAP: Arado Ar-234C with E-381

I haven't heard about the E-381, but I can say something about the Ar-234C.

The Arado Ar-234 Blitz (Lightning) was the first german (and I think world's)
jet bomber. If memory serves, the first version Ar-234A had expendable landing
gear (if not, please correct me!!). The first operational version was Ar-234B,
both versions were twin-engined. The Ar-234C version was four-engined, and did
have also a modified canopy. The Ar-234C-3 was intended to carry a V-1 bomb
(Fi-103) on the back, the Ar-234C-4 had a camera arrangement on the belly for
reconnaisance missions.

I have the DML 1/72 scale Ar-234C-3/C-4 with V-1. Very good kit, with highly
detailed photoetched parts. DML has also another interesting kit: The Mistel 5
(a combination of an Arado E-337 and a Heinkel He-162). The Mistel series were
flying bombs, where the "bomb" was a modified bomber full of explosives, with
a manned fighter attached to the back. The fighter had to fly near the target
and "release" the "bomb". Many combinations were tested. The first were
between Ju-88/Bf-109 and Ju-88/Fw-190. I have to recall my sources for more
information. About the E-337, it was a "bomb" version of the Ar-234. Same
wings (twin-engined), different fuselage and tail surfaces.

Jorge Merino

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 12:27:35 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Switzerland in WWII

On Tue, 4 Oct 1994 15:28:20 GMT-6 Robert T. Moore said:
Thanx, Terry.

>> Weren't
>> Allied fliers interned?
>
>    Yes. And some were also recruited by Allen Dulles to process
>intelligence info.

Which brings up the question:  exactly what was internment like for a
downed flier?  Actual imprisonment?  House arrest?  Detained in the
appropriate embassy?  Mixture of all 3 & others I haven't thought of? (-:

> If so, weren't the Swiss obliged to intern the
>> Germans as well?
>
>    Yes, but in this instance, the pressure from Goering and the
>German air ministry was so intense, out of fear that the Me-110 would
>fall into Allied hands, particularly the radar equipment on board,
>that it all resulted in a compromise situation for the Swiss. My
>source is Janusz Piekalkiewicz' book "Luftkrieg: 1939-1945" in German
>which goes into much detail on this episode.

Think I would have raised cain, had I been an Allied government at the time (-:
Although, perhaps the Allies were evading neutrality on Swiss soil & figured
they were overall gainers & didn't want to rock the boat.

ken koester
maint2@ers.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 12:46:08 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Kristalnacht

     > Just to clarify, I do know what the references are to, I just need
     > to know when, where and how the specific terms came into use.  In
     > other words, did something occur along the lines of the German
     > public getting up on July 1, 1934 and reading _Last night was the
     > Night of the Long Knives_.

     *****************************************************
     Brad Coon                     Windows: the operating
     COON@IPFWCVAX.BITNET          system for people who
     COON@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU    think even a Macintosh
                                   is too fast.
     Remember, only YOU can prevent political correctness!
     ******************************************************


     Brad,

     Kristalnacht is a name contemporaneous with the event.  Every shop
     etc. that had been identified as being owned by a Jew was destroyed,
     with shattered glass littering the streets in great volume.  The
     street lights illuminating the shards of glass it made it appear that
     the streets were covered in chrystal, hence Kristalnacht.  It was not
     a planned or operational name, but came about as the description of
     the carnage.

     I have no idea about the night of the long knives, sorry.


        Steve L. New                     .............................
        Weapon System Manager            .............................
        Battalion Countermine Set        ............ /\ .............
        U.S. Army TACOM AMSTA-IM-FR1D    ............/  \.............
        DSN: 786-5403  FAX: 786-7788     ............    .............
        EMAIL  NEWST@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL   ............    .............

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 13:10:27 -0400
From:    "John E. Kollar" <KILLAR@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU>
Subject: Re: POL:Hiroshima

I hate to be a stickler, but the first bomb used on Hiroshima was an
implosion type warhead, the fissionable material is arranged in a sphere,
and a perfect hollow sphere of explosives is detonated, causing a critical
mass to form, and then the explosion takes place, using U235, this
was done becuase of the properties of U235 and U238, it is very hard to get
them to form a critical mass for an explosion to take place.  With the
second bomb on Nagasaki, which was a plutonium bomb, it used the
gun-type mechanism becuase Plutionium is much easier to start a reaction
with, which is why there is much more concern in the international community
today about plutonium being on the black market rather than uranium being
on the balck market.

John E. Kollar

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 10:13:02 PDT
From:    Henry Herz <herz@C3OT.SAIC.COM>
Subject: TRIV: Largest Group of Prisoners

Here's a fun trivia question:
What was the largest number of prisoners taken in a single battle?
We'll probably need to precisely define "battle" in terms of time & space.
Answer for the following nationalities:
   American (Battle of the Bulge?)
   British (Dunkirk?)
   French
   Soviet
   German
   Italian
   Japanese (Okinawa?)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 12:26:24 -0500
From:    Michael D Wallick <msmdw@UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: POL:Night of the Long Knives

On Wed, 5 Oct 1994, Ira H Krakow wrote:

> On Wed, 5 Oct 1994 coon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU wrote:
>
> >         Does anyone on the list know when the phrases "Night of the Long
> > Knives" and "Krystallnacht" came into use?  Did the Nazis coin them or
> > was it the foreign press?
> > Thanks,
> > *****************************************************
> > Brad Coon                     Windows: the operating
> > COON@IPFWCVAX.BITNET          system for people who
> > COON@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU    think even a Macintosh
> >                               is too fast.
> >
> > Remember, only YOU can prevent political correctness!
> > ******************************************************
> >
>
> Brad,
>
>   The Night of the Long Knives occurred in 1934 when Hitler was
> consolidating power.  His biggest rivals were an internal Nazi
> group called the SA, headed by Ernst Rohm.  The SA was essentially
> a private army headed by Rohm, and posed a potential threat to Hitler.
> Rohm was also a homosexual.  Hitler, and his ally Heinrich Himmler of
> the SS, concocted a scheme to have Rohm discovered in flagrante delicto
> and assassinated him.  While they were at it, they assassinated a lot
> of the top SA brass, thus eliminating this group as a rival.  Apparently
> knives were the weapon of choice.  The elimination of the SA, along
> with the Reichstag fire, were the key events in Hitler's consolidation
> of power.
>
>    Kristallnacht occurred on November 9, 1938.  On that night ("the night
> of crystal") the Nazis burned most of the synagogues in Germany and arrested
> thousands of Jews.  This was the most public of overtly antisemitic acts
> committed by the regime.  Previously, perhaps it would have taken some
> research to grasp the Nazi's goal with regard to the Jews.  After
> Kristallnacht, the goal was quite apparent, even though the setting up
> of the extermination camps and the Final Solution had to wait until
> the Wannsee Conference in 1942, when the was was in full swing.
>
Didn't the Nazis also break the windows and ransack Jewish owned
businesses?  Therefore, it became known as "the night of crystal"
because of the amount of broken glass in the streets.

Michael Wallick

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 12:41:28 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: Raid in Poland

>
> The raid on the radio station that kicked off the Polish campaign--wasn;
> t that conducted not by SS but by Brandenburgers???  Does anyone else
> remember this besides me???  TAS                                        as

I don't believe there WERE any Brandenburgers at the time.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 10:52:34 -0800
From:    Yarbrough James L <James.L.YARBROUGH@STATE.OR.US>
Subject: Re: HYPO: The "Big" what-if?

Taking into consideration the definitions of winning that have been given, I
would have to say yes.  The Germans could have come out in a position of
dominance in Europe.  The occupation of a large portion of eastern and central
Europe followed by a period of relative peace.  I do not think that they would
still be in that position today, but that is not the question.

Now for the good part, why I think that way.

Had Germany continuted to attack the British airfields during the Battle of
Britain they could have gained air superiority over Britain and successfully,
either invaded or forced Britain into a peace treaty.  This by the way is the
really weak link in my arguement.  The ideal situation would be for a peace
treaty with Britain, thus freeing up an occupation force.

Anyway, after the securing of the west, the Germans would then be able to
solidify the Balkan states by equiping and training the militaries and
supporting the governments.  With a solid base in the Balkan countries and a
German economy geared for war. (Something that didn't happen in WWII until 1941
or '42)  Germany could then turn to the east and the USSR.  I don't think that
the Soviet Union would have been any more prepared for war than they were
because Stalin was trying to motivate the people with communist propaganda.  It
wasn't until after the early defeats that he turned to the Mother Russia theme.

I also think that the period of gearing up for war against the USSR would have
taken until 1942.  A time spent in r&d of new weapons and production of new
equipment.

To take into consideration the other countries of the world.

After the fall of Britain the US would not be in position to take action
against Germany.  Assuming the Japanese launch the attack at Pearl, I believe
that the US would not declare war against Germany.  They appeared not to be
going to until Germany declared on Dec 10.  If Britain is not around then the
US sends it entire might against the Japanese, which keeps them busy until 1944
or so.

Like I said, the USSR continues to prepare for war, but the people are not
motivated and the army is regularly purged of it's quality officers.  I think
the USSR might have been in a worse position to fight the war if Germany had
waited than they really were.

In conclusion,  Germany would occupy most of Europe and be in a position deal
with the US after the US defeats Japan.  Unless the US is willing to prop up
the Soviet Union and engage Germany on the plains of Russia.  The US would have
no ability to invade from the west and would have to take its army across the
USSR to engage the Germans.  Picture this, German U-boats patrolling the
Pacific supply lines.  Refueling from ports in India and Indochina.

That's the way I would have done it if I had been the little fella in charge.
Of course, I would probably would have been just as 'impassioned' and then I
would have done the same thing he did and we know the results of that.

Jim

James.L.YARBROUGH@STATE.or.us

New rules adopted by the agency require me to state that all my opinions are
mine, not that anybody else would want them, and not to hold the State of
Oregon or anybody else responsible.
_______________________________________________________________________________
Very simple hypothetical question:  Could Germany have won the Second World
War?  I expect reasonable answers, well thought out, ably argued, and with
brilliant, witty, and inciteful prose!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 12:58:46 -0500
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <TWATTS@EXODUS.VALPO.EDU>
Subject: Re: POL: Economic Causes of the war

Arnaud-
An interesting post about economics and causes of the war.  One challenge
to the theory.  He mentions the Sept. 1937 depression in the U.S. and
the need to divert public attention from this situation "especially as
the presidential elections were impending".  Presidential elections
were next held in 1940 - 3 years after the event and hardly impending.
This makes me doubt his effort to tie the "Quarantine speech" purely
to the economic conditions.

I am interested in the idea of economics and its role in history.  I
don't know enough to discount its effects, so I look forward to what
others have to say.
Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 13:36:52 -0400
From:    Bob Stewart <rstewart@CAIS.CAIS.COM>
Subject: Re: POL: Economic causes of the war

>Here is the first installment in what I would like to be a general
discussion of
> J.F.C. Fuller's writings.
>
>Arnaud.
>

Arnaud,

        Coincidentally, I have just been reading John Kenneth Galbraith's
_A_Journey_through_Economic_Time_ where he discusses the the interwar
economic period. I think there are three important facts left out by Fuller.

        First, one of the primary reasons for Germany's improved position in
foreign exchange was the ceasing of reparation payment's by Hitler. The
mechanism of international trade wasn't the problem. The problem was that
Germany was forced to transfer wealth and receive nothing in return.

        Second, Fuller dosen't mention the far greater negative impact on
international trade of the various tariff laws, such as the US's
Smoot-Hawley. These laws, intended to protect vulnerable domestic
industries, had a much greater effect on trade than Germany's moves to curb
its loses in foreign exchange.

        Third, it makes no mention of Hitler's use of public expenditure to
reduce unemployment. Much like Roosevelt, Hitler borrwed money domestically
to produce jobs programs and expenditures on infrastructure like the
autobahns. This was financed through loans from German banks. Wouldn't this
qualify as "loan-capitalism"? This certainly contributed to the improvements
in Germany's economy during this period, especially the reduction in
unemplyment.

        Overall, I think Fuller places to much emphasis on the philosophic
explanations of Hitler's trade reforms. His main motivation was purely
practica, to end a great drain on German wealth.

        Galbraith also gives a good accounting of the effects of Churchill's
return to the gold standard. It was, much like his invasion of the
Dardanelles, a disaster. It seems truely amazing that a public figure whose
two most famous, or infamous, decisions had had such terrible results would
be chosen as PM in Britain's time of calamity. Luckily, his service as PM
was not marked by the same sort of decisions. Or maybe I should say, luckily
no one listened to his plans for a balkan invasion into "the soft underbelly
of Europe." That move would have left him 0 for 3 in strategic moves!


     Bob Stewart    rstewart@cais.com   (202) 232-3433
     1835 Lamont St., NW
     Washington, DC

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 13:39:43 EST
From:    coon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU
Subject: Re: POL:Hiroshima

Sorry John, but I am occasionally a stickler as well.  The Hiroshima
bomb was indeed the U235 bomb, but it was the gun type, hence
the more elongate shape and the nick name Little Boy.  The Nagasaki
bomb was the plutonium bomb but it was the famous Fat Man and it
was the implosion device as well as being the prototype for at least
the first generation of US nuclear weapons.  Sources are numerous
but include _Nuclear weapons of the United States_.
*****************************************************
Brad Coon                     Windows: the operating
COON@IPFWCVAX.BITNET          system for people who
COON@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU    think even a Macintosh
                              is too fast.

Remember, only YOU can prevent political correctness!
******************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 11:54:45 -0700
From:    John Riegsecker <RIEGSECKER@UPS.EDU>
Subject: Re: POL:Hiroshima

>From:         "John E. Kollar" <KILLAR@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU>
>Subject:      Re: POL:Hiroshima
>
>I hate to be a stickler, but the first bomb used on Hiroshima was an
>implosion type warhead, the fissionable material is arranged in a sphere,
>and a perfect hollow sphere of explosives is detonated, causing a critical
>mass to form, and then the explosion takes place, using U235, this
>was done becuase of the properties of U235 and U238, it is very hard to get
>them to form a critical mass for an explosion to take place.  With the
>second bomb on Nagasaki, which was a plutonium bomb, it used the
>gun-type mechanism becuase Plutionium is much easier to start a reaction
>with, which is why there is much more concern in the international community
>today about plutonium being on the black market rather than uranium being
>on the balck market.
>
>John E. Kollar


No, you have it backwards.  Little Boy, the bomb dropped on Hiroshima
was a gun type bomb.  Fat Man, dropped on Nagasaki was an implosion type
bomb.  I'm looking at a reference book as I type this so I'm sure of
that fact, which is as I have always remembered it.

John Riegsecker
Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
University of Puget Sound

riegsecker@ups.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 14:54:41 -0400
From:    "Robert F. Kieran" <rkieran@NIC.NEAR.NET>
Subject: Re: Raid in Poland

        From: "SCHERRER, TIM" <AD16%NEMOMUS.BITNET@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu>
        Subject: Re: Raid in Poland
        Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 10:25:18 CST

        The raid on the radio station that kicked off the Polish campaign--wasn;
        t that conducted not by SS but by Brandenburgers???  Does anyone else
        remember this besides me???  TAS                                        as
                                                                                ders.
        ************************************************************************
        *  Tim A. Scherrer          "You'll be fighting WWII for the rest of   *
        *  Facilities Supervisor     your life", Ron Scherrer, 1971            *
        *  WP:816-785-5253                                                     *
        *  HP:816-665-6704                                                     *
        *  ID# AD16%NEMOMUS@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU                             *
        ************************************************************************

Tim,

     I remember that Admiral Canaris, as head of German military
intelligence, was responsible for providing Polish army uniforms
to the SS unit which "attacked" the Gleiwitz radio station.
(BTW, I believe the code name for this operation was "Canned Goods".)
Since the Brandenburgers reported to military intelligence at that time,
could this be what you're remembering?


                                                Regards,
                                                Bob Kieran
                                                rkieran@near.net

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 14:26:18 EST
From:    coon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU
Subject: Re: HYPO: The "Big" what-if?

I would add one more requirement to Jim Yarbrough's post, namely, the
Wehrmacht is free to go on into Dunkirk and captures the 338,000 who got
away.  Operation Seelo"we may not be cakewalk with this proviso, but it
sure gets easier.
*****************************************************
Brad Coon                     Windows: the operating
COON@IPFWCVAX.BITNET          system for people who
COON@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU    think even a Macintosh
                              is too fast.

Remember, only YOU can prevent political correctness!
******************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 14:31:55 -0500
From:    Greg Kelley <gregk@STPAUL.LIB.MN.US>
Subject: Re: Christie chassis & Wehrmacht

If memory serves, the only German tracked vehicles at their armour
training facility near Kazan were examples of the LEICHTTRAKTOR and
GROSSSTRAKTOR, neither of which had suspensions even remotely
Christie-ish.  German tank suspensions seem to have originated with an
example of a British Carden-Loyd tankette obtained elsewhere & developed
into the Panzerkampfwagen I.  Some years later, during the war, the first
designs for the PANTHER showed a suspension looking very much like that
of the Soviet T-34 (which Was based on the Christie).

The Polish Army DID order a single copy of the Christie Model 1931 but
defaulted on payment; this vehicle ended up bought by the US Army, but
that's as close as I know of that the Germans got to Christies (until
they ran across them in Spain in '37 and the western Ukraine in'41)

Unfortunately, the Rumanian Army never got to use anything Christie-ish.
Too bad-- General Radu might've enjoyed racing them down the streets of
Bucharest.....

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          gregk@stpaul.lib.mn.us

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 15:45:00 CCS
From:    Jorge Merino <jem@VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject: WEAP: What is the BV151 - guess

> p.s.  What is the BV151?

I guess Steve was talking about the Blohm und Voss Bv-141, an asymetric
reconnaissance aircraft. It consisted in two modules: a fuselage/engine
module located on port side, and a cockpit module, located on starboard
side. The horizontal stabilizer was also asymetric (only port side).
The crew was composed by 3 men. A few (about 10 or more) were produced.
The cockpit was quite similar to the Fw-189 Uhu's cockpit. This plane
was discussed some months ago, and I have my sources at home, but I could
try to recall more information if you are interested.

Jorge Merino

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 15:57:05 EST
From:    Aldo <HUBERT@PHYSICAL.UNCG.EDU>
Subject: Re: POL: Economic causes of the war

        Galbraith also gives a good accounting of the effects of Churchill's
return to the gold standard. It was, much like his invasion of the
Dardanelles, a disaster.



     Bob,
One small point of contention, not directly related to your main
point:
I don't think the Dardanelles operation was as ill-concieved as it
was ill-executed; the idea of Churchill's being fairly sound, but,
like the whole of the Vietnam conflict, was only 1/2 heartedly
carried-out.





Aldo M. Hubert
                                           Aldo_Hubert@uncg.edu
University of North Carolina at Greensboro
800 Oakland Ave.
Greensboro NC 27412

Sic Friatur Crustum Dulce

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 15:13:10 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: Raid in Poland

>
>     No, the original raid was not executed by the Brandenburgers.  In fact, it
> was not precisely executed by the SS; that is to say that is not being specific
> enough.  Operation Canned Goods was directed by Alfred Naujocks, personal
> favorite of Reinhard Heydrich.  Thus it fell under the domain of the Sicher
> dienst (or something like that), the SS intelligence branch (SD).  Additionally

Sicherheits Dienst - Security Service

>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 15:17:30 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Arado Ar-234C with E-381

>
> I haven't heard about the E-381, but I can say something about the Ar-234C.
>
> The Arado Ar-234 Blitz (Lightning) was the first german (and I think world's)
> jet bomber. If memory serves, the first version Ar-234A had expendable landing
> gear (if not, please correct me!!). The first operational version was Ar-234B,

That's correct.

It was not a viable concept, as it left the aircraft essentially helpless on
the ground until a wheeled trolly could be fitted, and the trolly had the
disturbing tendencies to 1) Bounce off the ground and strike the aircraft on
release, 2) fail to deploy its parachute upon release, leading to it's
destruction.

>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 16:21:00 -0400
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: POL: Economic causes of the war

Bob Stewart <rstewart@CAIS.CAIS.COM> writes:
>         Galbraith also gives a good accounting of the effects of Churchill's
> return to the gold standard. It was, much like his invasion of the
> Dardanelles, a disaster. It seems truely amazing that a public figure whose
> two most famous, or infamous, decisions had had such terrible results would
> be chosen as PM in Britain's time of calamity. Luckily, his service as PM
> was not marked by the same sort of decisions. Or maybe I should say, luckily
> no one listened to his plans for a balkan invasion into "the soft underbelly
> of Europe." That move would have left him 0 for 3 in strategic moves!

        Not quite true, regarding Churchill not making bad strategic
moves -- Anzio was his baby.
--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
It was a wasted trip, baby.  Nobody said
nothing about locking horns with no Tigers.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 16:08:48 -0400
From:    jmeierho@MAIL.NYSED.GOV
Subject: WEAP:  F82 Revisited -Reply

> Lets not get caught in a WW-I dogfight frame of mind.  Both the
> Japanese and the Italians discovered, to their dismay, that fighter
> maneuverability wasn't as important as speed, rate of climb, and
> FIREPOWER.
>
> Neither the F4F Wildcat nor the P-38 Lightning could maneuver with> the
> A6M2 Zero, but fighter tactics were developed for both aircraft> that gave
> them high positive kill ratios against their more> maneuverable opponents.

You are quite right in downplaying maneuverability as a prime factor for a
figher aircraft.  On the other hand, I would still propose that aspects of
maneuverability like rates of climb, roll, and turn; ability to dive and
accelerate quickly are important to an effective air superiority aircraft.  It is
information on these elements that I was looking re the F-82.  In any case, the
importance of fitting your tactics to your aircraft's performance strong points
and training are also critical.

> And speaking of the P-38, I don't know of any source that claim that it was
> "...an a/c that could not really stand up to the Germans..." With the
> exception of the original P-300 Lend Lease aircraft sent to Britain (No
> superchargers and no contra-rotating propellers) the P-38 had an >
exceptional record against the Germans.  It was the Luftwaffe that named
> it the Fork-Tailed Devil.

A some citations that support the proposition that the P-38 was outclassed as
an air superiority fighter over Germany:

Alfred Price, _World War II Fighter Conflict_,

pg 110.  Price summarizes the results of trails between a FW 190 A and a
P-38F:  FW190 was faster that the P-38 up to 23,000 feet.  FW190 had better
climb below 20,000 feet.  FW 190 dives better and can out turn the P-38 at
higher speeds.  Fw 190 accelerates faster in all cases.

Stephen L. McFarland / Wesley Newton, _To Command the Sky: The Battle for
Air Superiority over German, 1942-1944

p 56  "The German veteran tended to dismiss the P-38 as inferior because it
lacked all-round vision, was less maneuverable, and was more vulnerable to
cannon fire".

p 56  "Based on the relative strengths and weaknesses of enemy aircraft,
Luftwaffe rule of engagement were fairly simple: Never deliberately dogfight
with a P-51 but dive away and live to fight another day; never dive from a P-47
but engage and dogfight below 20,000; attack a P-38 anywhere, anytime."

p 247  "After the war..., two senior Luftwaffe commanders gave an assessment
of the three type.  Besides chronic engine problems, the P-38 had the twin
booms easily recognizable from a long distance, making in vulnerable to a
surprise attack".

(BTW the size factor is one that would have affected the F-82, especially in
days before radar was not used in your typical day fighter.  I have read that
the size discrepancy between the F-4 Phantom and the MIG 21 partially
compensates for the superior performance of the former, especially when
rifled-weapon is being used.  The guy who sees the other aircraft first has a
distinct tactical advantage)

Walter J. Boyne _Clash of Wings: World War II in the Air_

p 322  "The Lockheed Lightening, which became available later in the year,
could ultimately reach out to a distnce of 600 miles when equipped with two
165-gallon drop tanks. but the Lightening was never highly regarded as an
air-superiority fighter in European skies".

Jeffrey L. Ethell / Alfred Price _Target Berlin: Mission 250: 6 March 1944_

p 12  "The next most numerous fighter type in the 8th Air Force's inventory
[after the P-47] was the Lockheed P-38 Lightning.... During his time in Euriopr
Hub Zemke ommanded units operating each of the three fighter types used by
the 8th Air Force.... He felt the Lightning was the least effective of the escorts.
'The turbo-superchargers were controlled by an oil regulator and at altitude
the oil had a tendency to congeal, which caused serious problems'.  A further
problem with the P-38 was that its airframe was not strong and it had a
relativley low maximum diving speed.  If German fighters broke off combat by
diving steeply the Lightning pilots could not follow.  But Zemke did remember
the P-38 as hivng on outstanding feature. 'As a gun platform it was as steady
as a shooting stand'.

I would not claim that the P-38 was as poor as the Bf110, but it seems that the
people of the time saw it as a distinct third place finisher behind the P-47 and
P-51.  I don't know what would have happened to the air superiority
campaigne if the P-51 had not been introduced and USAAF had to rely on the
P-38 for long-range escort.  Fortunately that proved unnecessary.

Does anyone have an citations of kill loss ratios for P-38 units against the
Germans in an escort / air superiority role?

> P-38s got sent primarily to the Pacific not because of any problems  dealing
> with German A/C, but because the twin engine design was preferred in an >
operating theater filled with lots of water between  tiny islands.

I would not deny that this is one of the reasons for directing the P-38 to the
Pacific.  I would wonder whether its RELATIVE ineffectiveness against the
Luftwaffe may have been another factor (for that position I don't have any
documentation)

> Lets face it, the ME-110 was just a dog, and using it's performance
> against Spitfires and Hurricanes to judge the F-82's against a Zero
> or a Tony is meaningless.

You are setting up a straw man here.  My original post was not comparing the
F-82 effectiveness against the Zero or the Tony, but rather against "first class
single engine fighters", for example the FW 190, Ta 152 or some of the newer,
more heavily armed Japanese fighters, or the P-51 itself for that matter.  As
was the case, the Japanese did not have such a fighter and in the air
environment over Japan in 1945-6, the F-82 might well have been very
successful.

> Steve L. New


John Meierhoffer                                jmeierho@mail.nysed.gov
New York State Education Dept           518 486 2390
Rm 5B44  Cultural Ed Center
Albany NY 12230

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 16:19:02 -0400
From:    jmeierho@MAIL.NYSED.GOV
Subject: WEAP:  BV151

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

     I'll leave the BV-151 for someone else.


        Steve L. New                     .............................
        Weapon System Manager            .............................
        Battalion Countermine Set        ............ /\ .............
        U.S. Army TACOM AMSTA-IM-FR1D    ............/  \.............
        DSN: 786-5403  FAX: 786-7788     ............    .............
        EMAIL  NEWST@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL   ............    .............

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


Assuming the BV stands for Blohn und Voss, are you referring to the BV 141,
the assymetical short range recon aircraft??

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 15:47:05 -0500
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: SS and SA

> There was mention in an earlier post of the SA never seeing combat
> except possibly in defense of cities.
>
> The 60th Infantry division was made up of the S.A. Brigade Eberhardt-a
> combat force smuggled into Danzig the Westerplatte, and surrounding areas
> of Poland in 1939.  Fought in Poland,rance, and Russia.  Surrounded
> and destroyed at Stalingrad.  Rebuilt around the 272d Regiment (Feldherrnhalle)
> made up primarily of SA soldiers.  Destroyed at Budepest, remnants of
> Felhernhalli still fighting on Eastern front when war ended.
>
> Rob Rush

Good points.  There was also a formation of Feldherrnhalle under the
Luftwaffe as well.  Also a Waffen SS regiment was comprised of SA
folks (Rgt Horst Wessel).

The cadre of the SA also filled out the ranks of regular Wehrmacht
formations (that is *all* branches - army, navy, air forces) as
individual replacements in combat units not necessarily as SA
sponsored formations.  Same for NSDAP leaders too.  There was one
Gauleiter who served as a Gefreiter in a Gebirgsjaeger Regt.  Baldur
von Schirach (Reichjugendfuehrer) served as a Leutnant in the army for
a time.  As I recall Viktor Lutze (SA Chef after Rhoem) also served as
a lower ranking officer in the Army.

In my research, I have run across quite a number of SA men who were
killed in action (as opposed to dying from bombing etc.).  Most SA
men in the early days were veterans of the Kaiser's army and various
Frei Korps units so fighting was nothing new to them.

Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 15:58:48 -0500
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: SS in combat

>         The facts, however, are that a squad of SS/Gestapo took a group
> of political prisoners from a Nazi concentration camp to a border
> point close to Gleiwitz. The prisoners were forced to put on Polish uniforms,
> then shot dead -- a bizarred faked "Polish attack" on the local radio
> station. The following morning, Sept 1, 1939, German troops invaded Poland,
> while Herr Hitler announced that it was in retaliation for "the attack by
> Polish troops on the [German] Gleiwitz transmitter..."
>         Regards -- Sidney Allinson.

To *really* pick nits, let me add that Aryan looking prisoners were
brought along to be laid out in German uniforms (boarder guards etc)
along with others dressed in Polish uniforms to really make it look
good.  That Walter Schellenburg, what a guy.  He thought of
everything.... :-)

Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 17:22:05 EDT
From:    "Dennis E. Sparks" <sparks@ALPHA.CAER.UKY.EDU>
Subject: Fat Man question

Here's a quote from the book "The Fall of Japan", by William
Craig, Dial Press, 1967, regarding an unusual incident prior
to the Nagasaki mission.  Can anyone on the list comment on
whether or not this is accurate, or even possible?

Begin quote:

While Sweeney talked to his men about the mission, scientists
completed the assembly of the Fat Man.  Just before they inserted
the plutonium itself, General Tom Farrell, Grove's deputy on
Tinian, held in his hands the dark-grayish metal.  It felt warm
to his touch and he found it almost impossible to believe that
this amount of matter, cupped in his palms, could actually
destroy a city.

End quote.

Can you safely hold plutonium in your hands, or was this plain
ignorance on their part?  Was the lump Farrell held the entire
plutonium charge for the bomb, or only some fraction of it?  As
I understand it, the Little Boy uranium bomb had a large piece
of uranium (the "target") installed in the bomb while it was still
on the ground, and that the second, smaller piece, (the "bullet")
was installed in the bomb after takeoff.  At detonation, the
bullet" was fired with an explosive charge, forcing it along a
six-foot long barrel, with the "target" attached to the end of
the barrel.

I note that the 2nd bomb used charges all around the plutonium to
squeeze it (an implosion), but was the plutonium separated into two
pieces like the uranium?  If two pieces, were both installed while
the bomb was on the ground?  Craig's book mentions that it was
considered to be a possibility that a crash on takeoff of the
second mission could possibly ignite the TNT charge in the bomb,
and hence start the nuclear explosion.

I vaguely recall a different account that described some type of
A-bomb as having two hemispheres of the radioactive material, each
having a highly polished flat face.  The two were forced together
by the TNT charge.  Does this description apply to either of these
first two bombs?

Inquiring minds want to know....

Dennis E. Sparks
sparks@alpha.caer.uky.edu
Lexington, Kentucky

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 16:23:14 -0500
From:    "William L. Huber - SAA" <whuber@SADIS01.KELLY.AF.MIL>
Subject: Re: TACT:Downfall

>
> Also, you will have to count all the Kriegsmarine naval and air assets to be ass
> igned against England. Admittedly they couldn't have played as decisive a role a
> gainst Russia, though ships played an important role in the fighting for cities
> such as Leningrad and Sevastopol, and they could have been trained as infantry,
> as in 1945.
>
> Arnaud.
>

Kriegsmarine troops were used as ground forces on different occasions.
One that comes to mind was mentioned in a report from Generaloberst
Erhard Raus to Hitler when he related in early 1945 that on the
sector of the front in Pommerania  his two remaining panzer divsions
were facing 19 soviet divisions but that the naval auxiliaries were
holding out bravely against the soviet tanks using mines and
panzerfausts but taking appauling casualties.

That was when Hitler told Raus he was facing *17* soviet tank
divisions and relieved him of command as not being aggressive enough.

Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 13:09:26 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: TACT:Could they have won ?

Hello, William!

Thanks for the note and I appreciate hearing from you.

>    The Ardennes Offensive probably did hasten their defeat.  But, without
> the benefit of hindsight, what would you do if you were Hitler, faced with
> a superior enemy on both sides?

    I don't think I would have chanced an attack that had no ultimate
chance of success, as Hitler did not do. He was told from the very
beginning by von Rundstedt and Model that it would have no chance of
success. A reduced version, as suggested by Model, or a small
"Ardennenschlacht" would have stood a better chance of succeeding. In
any case, Hitler's attack reflected his utter lack of appreciation of
the military situation. He refused to let go of the fact that the
days of attack with accompanying success were over. Probably what
Hitler had in mind at the time was that by attacking, he was showing
the world that there was still fight left in what everyone viewed as
a corpse, if you will. This is my opinion anyway.

    But to answer your question, I would have used those resources,
accumulated at great sacrifice, for reserves on the Eastern Front, as
best as possible.

 I'm sorry to those people who don't like
> if questions, but they are essential for a full understanding of why certain
> decisions were made and events came to pass.

    I agree with that.

 Rommel, when faced with the
> British in North Africa driving him almost out of Italy, counterattacked.

    Yes, that is true, but the type of warfare in the Western Desert
was different than that on the European Continent, and.
> This is what made him the Desert Fox - striking when least expected.

>       All together, I found Hitler's offensive very admirable.

    I appreciate your opinion on this, and I understand your point of
view, but I think Hitler would have been better served to have used
his strategic reserves as such on the Eastern Front where they were
most needed. Hitler tried to do too much with too little resources
and he could ill afford to waste them on a scheme that had no
ultimate chance of success. It only brought Germany closer and more
quickly to defeat.

To begin
> with, he clearly caught the Allies by surprise.

    True, but it didn't take long for the Allies to recover.

  Second, that although it
> was ultimately to fail, it did restore morale to the German troops for
> a while.

    True, but this didn't last long either and most Germans at that
time, the soldiers included, had long given up the hope of a complete
German victory.


        And third, I might question
whether or not it speeded up the
> end of the Reich.

    There is no doubt of this. That offensive squandered Germany's
last strategic reserves of men and materiel that would have been
better used in resupplying the Eastern Front and/or Western Front as
the case may be. A correct distribution of these resources would have
made the going much harder for both Russians and Western Allies
during their drive into Germany, not that it would have affected the
outcome, because, by that time, there was no doubt how it would end.

 The troops and equipment would probably have been
> encircled, destroyed by the air, or just chewed up on the Eastern Front.

    Probably, but I think their opponents would have had a harder
time of it, as the Germans had proven themselves to be very
resourceful in improvisation, and additional men and resources would
have seriously slowed but not stopped the inevitable.

 It really might have only made the difference of a month or two.

    Perhaps, but one can only guess at that. The outcome would have
been the same, no doubt, and Allied casualties would have been higher
as I see it.

    Do you have any additional thoughts. I do appreciate yours and
thank you for them. I apologize, if I may have seemed to ramble.

   Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 12:33:39 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gustav Geraet

Hello, Tim!

I think I can answer your question on this.

> I enjoyed your postings about the railroad gun and its performance against
> Sevastapol.  Although this may be on the fringes of the list, do you have
> any idea how it compared to the WW I Paris gun?

    The Paris gun fired more rounds into Paris than the Gustav did
into Sevastopol. The range of the Paris gun was 76 miles with the
projectile making it into the stratosphere, hence the range. Each
shell that was fired from the Paris gun resulted in forcing the crew
to carefully calculate the amount of powder to be used in each
succeeding shot.

    I am taking all this from memory, but I understand that the Paris
Gun blew up during a firing because the crew had miscalculated the
charge that was used and, along with the angle of firing, the
pressures built up inside the breech became intolerable for the
weapon and it exploded.

    The Paris Gun was more a propaganda/terror weapon rather than one
used for a valid military purpose. The Gustav Geraet was designed for
a specific purpose, i.e. to destroy either the fortifications of the
Maginot Line or other related purposes such as the reduction of the
fortifications of Sevastopol, etc.

    The weight of the projectile for the Paris Gun was not as heavy
as that of the Gustav Geraet. If memory serves me properly, the
weight of the projectile was in the neighborhood of less than one
ton. I will have to check on this, whereas the shell of the Gustav
weighed several.

     Was it manufactured by the
> same people or draw in any way on the earlier gun?

    Yes. Krupp manufactured both weapons as well as all other siege
artillery in WWI.

   Hope this has been of help. I will try to get back to you on the
Paris Gun

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 07:35:24 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAPON: Amphibious Landings and Tanks

Hello, Patrick!

You might consult the following:

    Tank by Kenneth Macksey that is a history of the development and
combat employment of the tank.

    Hitler Moves East by Paul Carrell goes into some detail as to the
use of watertight tanks against the fortress of Brest-Litovsk in the
opening phase of Operation Barbarossa.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 17:38:19 -0400
From:    Patrick Draper <pdrap@CTP.COM>
Subject: Help

listserv help


--
 /\/\ |Patrick Draper                        Mr. Order, he runs at a|
/ /_.\|Cambridge Technology Partners, Inc.      good pace, but old  |
\  /./|e-mail: pdrap@ctp.com                      Mother chaos is   |
 \/\/ |Lansing, Michigan                          winning the race. |

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 15:37:52 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: [INF] USAAF 2 OCT 44

Hello, Tim and Jack!

One thing to consider is that a significant part of the oil-
production facility at Ploesti, Rumania had been owned by Standard
Oil prior to the establishment of the dictatorship in Rumania headed
by Ian Antonescu. After they became nationalized the Rumanians gladly
exported oil to Germany.


Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 15:52:54 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Italy in WW2, my $0.02--part II

Hello, William!

Great post.

>    The Waffen SS became a fighting army after Hitler lost faith in the regular
> army.  They did not perform particularly brilliantly, but fought well and to
> the death, following Hitler's orders.  The regular army units would usually
> retreat when hard pressed.

    I might add one thing to the above statement that "they did not
perform particularly brilliantly, etc". That is very true but that
was largely due to poor leadership in the field. As you very aptly
point out, the Waffen-SS was the elite of the Party and selected
along racial lines and given the best equipment, but they certainly
weren't given the best leadership. For example, Sepp Dietrich's Chief
of Staff as CO of the 6th Panzer Army at the Bulge was an army
officer, namely Generalleutnant Heinz Cramer. In fact, with
exceptions, of course, in the form of Hausser and Gille, both former
Reichswehr officers with proven administrative and field experience,
a large part of the "field officers" lacked ability. One can say that
given the fact that this was a "revolutionary" unit within an
established command structure, there necessarily would be a lack of
real competence expected on the battlefield. Thus to make up for
this, the Waffen-SS relied upon discipline and this "fight to the
death" mentality to make up for this deficiency in battlefield
leadership competence.

    Just my opinion, of course, but your post is right on.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 17:14:06 -0500
From:    Greg Kelley <gregk@STPAUL.LIB.MN.US>
Subject: Re: Raid in Poland

I'll have to double check my sources when I get home tonight, but the
first troops which would later be called "Brandenburgers" were assembled
in the fall of 1938, under the command of an Army colonel whose name
escapes me just now.  They were to assigned the responsibility of
storming the Reichstag and arresting Hitler if the Munich Crisis hadn't
resolved peacefully.  I'll check my copy of Harold Deutsch's HITLER AND
HIS GENERALS: THE UNSEEN CRISIS, 1938 for details.




                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          gregk@stpaul.lib.mn.us

On Wed, 5 Oct 1994, Christopher Morton wrote:

> >
> > The raid on the radio station that kicked off the Polish campaign--wasn;
> > t that conducted not by SS but by Brandenburgers???  Does anyone else
> > remember this besides me???  TAS                                        as
>
> I don't believe there WERE any Brandenburgers at the time.
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 18:33:17 EDT
From:    Cassady Craft <CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fat Man question

Dennis, as long as the plutonium is sub-critical, you can hold it.  It won't
be good for you, though.  So, yes it was ignorance, too.

Incidentally, two different accidents occured in Los Alamos (with the exact
same piece of plutonium!) after the war.  Both were situations where the
239 was sub-critical, somebody goofed (a screwdriver slipped and someone
knocked a piece of graphite over), flash, and you are microwaved.  The
"old salts" here tell me that the people involved died the most excruciating
deaths you can ever imagine.

Cassady Craft
Department of Political Science
University of Georgia
e-mail CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
or
CCRAFT@LANL.GOV

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 18:37:06 EDT
From:    Brian Nicklas <NASAD003@SIVM.SI.EDU>
Subject: WEAP: Ar234C with E381

The Arado Ar 234C was four engine, with BMW 003 jets.
The "standard" was the Ar 234B with two Junkers Jumo 004 jets.
The Arado E.381 had a span of (roughly) 16ft, length 16ft,
empty weight 1,963 lb.  Pilot lay prone, amidst T-Stoff and
C-Stoff fuel tanks.  Powered by Walter 109-509A-2 rocket.
All of the above is from:
German Aircraft of the Second World War by J R Smith & A L Kay.
IMHO I find this book better than "Warplanes of the Third Reich"
since it covers helicopters, missiles, projects (like the E.381)
and several light aircraft.
Sharkmouth designs (among Germans) on aircraft go back to German
A/C during WWI.  The LFG Roland C.II "Walfisch" one example that was
"mouthy" quite often.  A Junkers Ju 87B-1 used early in France
by a St.Gruppe commander had a very nice sharkmouth painted on it.
On another thread someone mentioned "Bf 109 at War", which had
a photo of a Swiss Bf 109E-3 with sharkmouth.

I like the DML subjects, but I wish they'd leave the high-grade
tooling for "real" airrcaft and leave the "projects" to the resin
and basement producers.  At least MPM has done a Junkers W 34!

Joe - Am I mistaken, or you a rabid fan of "Kelly's Heroes"??
:-)

-Brian Nicklas

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 18:38:01 EDT
From:    Cassady Craft <CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fat Man question

Incidentally, is Richard Rhodes, _The Making of the Atomic Bomb_ considered
THE classic.  One of my favorites, regardless.

By the way, you can make a bomb with a piece of uranium and a hammer--and one
_really_ dedicated individual.  I think the guy who "did" the Marine's
barracks in Beruit would have qualified.

Cassady Craft
Department of Political Science
University of Georgia
e-mail CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
or
CCRAFT@LANL.GOV

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 18:44:30 PDT
From:    Jim Brady <brady@ONRAMP.NET>
Subject: Re: TACT:Could they have won ?

>    There is no doubt of this. That offensive squandered Germany's
>last strategic reserves of men and materiel that would have been
>better used in resupplying the Eastern Front and/or Western Front as
>the case may be. A correct distribution of these resources would have
>made the going much harder for both Russians and Western Allies
>during their drive into Germany, not that it would have affected the
>outcome, because, by that time, there was no doubt how it would end.
>
> The troops and equipment would probably have been


 An examination of the events in WWII may suggest a fairly precise answer,
but I wonder: at what point =during= the war did the Allies believe they
were over the hump, that victory was beyond question?

 Anyone?


 - Jim Brady

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 01:44:49 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVSDS.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Arado Ar-234C with E-381

On Wed, 5 Oct 1994, Jorge Merino wrote:

> I haven't heard about the E-381, but I can say something about the Ar-234C.

The E 381 never left the drawing board.  The writer Andre Ver Elst claims
that it was developed from the Me 163. Knowing the limitations of Ver
Elsts works --- He didn't have access to all sources we now have -- this
probably only means that it also had rocket engines. The US later followed
the idea up with the F-85 Goblin parasite jet fighter design.

The 'Julia' name is used for a number of strongly different designs. It
seems that it was a name for an entire class of aircraft, rather than a
single design.

> The Arado Ar-234 Blitz (Lightning) was the first german (and I think world's)
> jet bomber. If memory serves, the first version Ar-234A had expendable landing
> gear (if not, please correct me!!).

The landing gear was not, strictly spoken, expendable. The Ar 234A took
off with a jettisonable trolley, and landed on retractable skis. It was
intended to reuse the trolley. This avoided the problem of fitting landing
gear to a high-wing aircraft with a slender fuselage, but was very
impractical in the field: an Ar 243A could not taxi from the landing strip
and to the parking area, and trolleys were scattered all over the place.

> The first operational version was Ar-234B,
> both versions were twin-engined. The Ar-234C version was four-engined, and did
> have also a modified canopy. The Ar-234C-3 was intended to carry a V-1 bomb
> (Fi-103) on the back, the Ar-234C-4 had a camera arrangement on the belly for
> reconnaisance missions.

The Ar 234C never really entered production, it remained one of the
numerous Ar 234 prototypes. There also was an Ar 234P version, this was a
nighfighter with a conventional 'solid' nose. Just wait for some
manufacturer to produce a model of this one...  (One of the more
remarkable 'flights of bold imagination' of a model manufacturer that I
have seen was a nightfighter version of the Messerschmitt P.1011
swing-wing prototype, armed with equally imaginative air-to-air missiles.)

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 01:52:59 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVSDS.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: WEAP:aircraft comparisons

On Tue, 4 Oct 1994, Greg Kelley wrote:

> > Re odd fighter groupings, Bf109s and Hawker Hurricanes fighting side
> > by side for the Rumanians in 1941, if I recall correctly.
> >
> Yes, they did-- alongside Polish PZL P.24s and French Morane MS.406s.  In

The Belgian Air Force of May 1940 used both Gloster Gladiators and Fiat
CR.42 biplane fighters, 15 and 23 of them, respectively.  The modern part
of it were eleven Hawker Hurricanes (some bought, some interned).

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 21:22:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 6 OCT 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
FRIDAY, 6 OCTOBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  L-4, Piper Cub/Grasshopper
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang
  P-61, Northrop Black Widow

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 20+ P-47s bomb troop
concentrations in Mawlu and Bilumyo and damage an approach to bridge at
Seywa; 8 B-25s attack bridges at Hsenwi, damaging the main bridge but causing
little harm to bypass bridges. Transport operations continue on large scale
in the CBI. In India, HQ 7th Bombardment Group (Heavy) moves from Kurmitola
to Pandaveswar while it's 436th and 492d Bombardment Squadrons (Heavy) move
from Tezzgaon to Madhaigani with B-24s.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 12 B-25s bomb Wucbou and attack
boats and other targets of opportunity in the Canton area; 50+ P-40s and
P-51s on armed reconnaissance over areas of China S of the Yangtze River
attack rivercraft, bridges, town areas, troop concentrations and targets of
opportunity along the N French Indochina coast; the flight of the 35th
Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, Fourteenth AF, at Nanning, returns to
base at Chanyi with F-5s.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Twentieth Air Force):  The first P-61 night fighters
arrive in Chengtu, China on the eve of the third air raid; in 10 attacks from
6 Sep to 19 Dec, only 43 aircraft participate.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  AIRBORNE OPERATIONS (IX Troop Carrier Command): The 305th Troop Carrier
Squadron, 442d Troop Carrier Group, moves from Weston Zoyland, England to
Peray, France with C-47s.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 2 missions are flown.
  Mission 667: 1,271 bombers and 784 fighter are dispatched to hit
industrial targets in N Germany; with one exception, all attacks are visual;
19 bombers and 4 fighters are lost:
  1. 447 B-17s are dispatched to hit Stargard Airfield (199), aircraft
factories at Neubrandenburg (73) and Stettin (12); targets of opportunity are
Stralsund (110), Kappeln (36), Freienwalde (1) and other (1); 1 B-17 is lost
and 34 damaged; 9 airmen are MIA. Escort is provided by 180 of 202 P-51s;
they claim 3-1-3 aircraft in the air and 30-0-14 on the ground; 3 P-51s are
lost (pilots MIA), 2 damaged beyond repair and 4 damaged.
  2. 418 B-17s are dispatched to Berlin to hit a munitions dump at Berlin/
Spandau (144), aircraft factories at Berlin/Spandau (138) and tank factory at
Berlin/Tegel (100); 10 hit a target of opportunity. 17 B-17s are lost, 1
damaged beyond repair and 234 damaged; 3 airmen are KIA, 4 WIA and 154 MIA.
Escort is provided by 363 of 414 P-51s; they claim 15-0-5 aircraft; 1 P-51 is
lost and 3 damaged.
  3. 406 B-24s are dispatched to hit Harburg/Rhenania oil refinery (121) with
PFF methods, munitions dumb at Hamburg/Glinde (89) and aircraft factories at
Hamburg/Klockner (79) and Wenzendorf (46); targets of opportunity are Stade
Airfield (29), the Hamburg area (8), Nordhoz Airfield (2), Bremervorde (1)
and Ottersberg (1); 1 B-24 is lost and 127 damaged; 1 airman is KIA, 2 WIA
and 10 MIA. Escort is provided by 156 of 168 P-47s; they claim 1-0-0 aircraft
in the air; 6 P-47s are damaged.
  Mission 668: 6 B-24s and 4 B-17s drop leaflets in Germany, the Netherlands
and France during the night without loss.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 300+ B-26s and A-20s hit marshalling
yards, barracks, and ammunition dump at Hengelo, the Netherlands and Duren,
Germany and bridges at Arnhem, the Netherlands and Aldenhoven, Germany; in
Germany, fighters fly armed reconnaissance in the Dusseldorf, Aachen, Trier,
Dieuze, and Koblenz areas, sweeps and patrols in forward areas, attack
railroads in the Dorsel area, and support the First, Third, and Seventh
Armies' forces in E France and W Germany. In France, HQ 397th Bombardment
Group (Medium) moves from Dreux to Peronne.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  AAF, MTO: The 121st Liaison Squadron, AAF MTO, moves from Pomigliano to
Florence, Italy with L-4s and L-5s ("A" Flight is at Vittel, France).

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): Weather cancels bombing
operations; in Greece, 35 P-38s strafe airfields at Sedhes, Megalo Mikra,
Megara, Eleusis, and Tatoi, and 55 P-51s strafe Kalamaki airfield.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, weather cancels all
operations of the medium bomber wing and the XII Fighter Command. In France,
the 34th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, XII Tactical Air Command
(attached to Provisional Reconnaissance Group), moves from Dijon to Azelot
with F-5s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): B-24s from Saipan Island hit Iwo Jima Island in
harassment attacks during the night of 6/7 Oct. In the Marshall Islands, a
B-24 from Kwajalein Atoll bombs a heavy gun battery on Emidj Island, Jaluit
Atoll. During the night of 6/7 Oct, 3 B-24s bomb Wake Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: On Halmahera
Island, P-38s hit Kaoe Airfield and shipping near Djailolo. In the Ceram
Island-Amboina, Ambon Island-Boeroe, Sunda Island area B-25s and P-38s attack
Namlea on Buru Island, Waai on Celebes Island, Amahai on Ceram Island, and
several small craft. In New Guinea, P-47s bomb Kaimana; and the 547th Night
Fighter Squadron moves from Oro Bay to Owi, Schouten Islands with P-38s and
P-61s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

06/0124Z OCT

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 02:28:06 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVSDS.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: Fat Man question

On Wed, 5 Oct 1994, Dennis E. Sparks wrote:

> Can you safely hold plutonium in your hands, or was this plain
> ignorance on their part?  Was the lump Farrell held the entire
> plutonium charge for the bomb, or only some fraction of it?

Plutonium is radioactive --- half-life of some 24000 years --- but is,
like Uranium, an alpha emitter. In a subcritical mass, the reactions that
produce neutrons die out rapidly. Alpha particles are relatively heavy
(they are Helium cores) and will interact readily with other matter;
therefore they will travel only a few centimeters through air. The pieces
for 'Fat Man' were gold-plated to combat corrosion, and this would
probably stop most of the alphas. You shouldn't hold it in your hands if
you don't have to, but there should be no great danger. The real danger
with Pu is ingestion or inhalation; if it settles down in your body, it
will do real damage.

One has to be careful with pieces of Pu that are near to critical mass.
Hydrogen, an very element common in the human body, will slow down
neutrons and reflect them back. This can make an appropiately sized stack
of Pu go critical (it very nearly happened to one of the scientists at Los
Alamos) and create a very dangerous burst of neutrons. For the same
reason, solutions of Pu are more dangerous to handle than solid Pu.

The core of 'Fat Man' consisted two hollow half-shells of Pu; in the
center an initiator was placed. Design of initiators is still secret, but
its role is to create on initial burst of neutrons to make sure that the
chain reaction starts at the right time. Nuclear reactions in Pu will
multiply neutrons, but Pu will produce none or few neutrons by itself ---
I don't have a reference at hand;  maybe there is a little bit of beta
decay (producing electrons and neutrons) or else you would have to hope
for some passing cosmic ray to initiate the bomb. Not a good bet.

There was an opening in the explosive mantle of 'Fat Man'; the armourers
first inserted the core pieces with the initiator, and then two pieces of
explosives. This was probably done on the ground; it is high precision
work.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 18:43:09 -0700
From:    John Davis <jbd@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Peleliu write-up

A couple of months ago, someone posted to the list a very detailed
write-up on Peleliu. It gave a day by day summary of what was going on.
I kept a copy of the article but the authors name and address got cut by
my save script. I'd like to ask the author a question. If you are that
person, could you send me a private email message. The article was posted
back sometime in the summer. Thanks

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis     jbd@netcom.com      WWW: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/jbd/ww2.html
Cary, N.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 02:57:11 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVSDS.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: POL:Hiroshima

On Wed, 5 Oct 1994, John E. Kollar wrote:

> was done becuase of the properties of U235 and U238, it is very hard to get
> them to form a critical mass for an explosion to take place.  With the
> second bomb on Nagasaki, which was a plutonium bomb, it used the
> gun-type mechanism becuase Plutionium is much easier to start a reaction
> with, which is why there is much more concern in the international community
> today about plutonium being on the black market rather than uranium being
> on the balck market.

No, that is not correct. The Uranium bomb used a 'gun' design, the
Plutonium bomb was an implosion type. As I explained earlier, an Uranium
bomb is easier to contruct.  Plutonium is 'easier' because you can produce
bomb-quality Pu with a nuclear reactor (one moderated by graphite is
preferable) and a chemical processing plant.

U235 is only a small fraction in natural uranium: officially 0.711%, in
practice it is varying somewhat (0.1%) with the source of the ore (and
decreasing with time, because U235 has a shorter half-life than U238).
There is by definition no chemical difference between the various Uranium
isotopes; they have to be separated by physical means that exploit their
0.6% weight difference. There are a number of them: electromagnetic
separation (the so-called 'Calutron'), gaseous barrier diffusion, liquid
thermal diffusion, centrifuges, gas jet separation... Some of these do not
produce bomb-quality uranium; all are very expensive. If you can build a
reactor, then you better use it to make Plutonium. You need to enrich U
only partially to make a normal reactor run -- to a few percent U235.

So most of the bomb material on the market is Plutonium. Bomb-quality
uranium would be far more dangerous, if the dangers of terrorism are
concerned; but there is simply less of it. There was a report recently
about pure U235 from the USSR, BTW. (Not that the average journo would
care about the differences between U235 and Pu239).

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 4 Oct 1994 to 5 Oct 1994
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To: Recipients of WWII-L digests <WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Status: O

There are 67 messages totalling 2256 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. POL:Hiroshima (6)
  2. TRIV: Largest Group of Prisoners
  3. HYPO:  The "Big" what-if? (5)
  4. INF: USN Chronology 10-06-94
  5. BV-151 ne BV-141
  6. INF: 50 Years Ago - 07-OCT-1944
  7. Misc
  8. [FYI]  Lost Service Records Found
  9. WEAP: F82 Revisited
 10. Hiroshima (2)
 11. TACT:Could they have won ? (5)
 12. Fat Man question
 13. HYPO: The "Big" what-if? (4)
 14. Motivation Behind the SA Purge (4)
 15. MEDIA: Monty's PJs
 16. Italy in WW2---Elites, All Armies (2)
 17. SS in combat
 18. WEAP: Arado Ar-234C with E-381
 19. Carlson's Raiders
 20. Switzerland in WWII (3)
 21. {WEAP} P-38 (2)
 22. Churchill's bad decisions (from Economic Causes of the War)
 23. Media: Wait for Purple Heart
 24. HIST -- SA purge (4)
 25. TACT:Balkan strategy (2)
 26. SS and SA
 27. WEAP: Ar234C with E381
 28. ITALY IN WW2, MY $
 29. Gustav Geraet
 30. Raid in Poland (2)
 31. WWII-L Digest - 2 Oct 1994 to 3 Oct 1994
 32. [TRIV] Re: odd WWII air encounters
 33. POL:  Swiss Neutrality
 34. Italy in WW2, HOLLOW LEGIONS title
 35. Italy in WW2--book titles (2)
 36. Raid in Poland--Brandenburgers & Such
 37. [INF] USAAF 7 OCT 44

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 23:36:23 EDT
From:    Cassady Craft <CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
Subject: Re: POL:Hiroshima

Emmanuel said that weapons grade uranium is more dangerous than plutonium,
but there is much less of it.  This needs clarification, because there are
several ways that this might be misleading.  First, the reason why it may
be more dangerous (Emmanuel correct me if I'm mistaking your meaning) is
because of the simplicity of the weapons design required.  It really has
nothing to do with U235 or 239.  Second, when you say there is less weapons
grade uranium around, that is relative.  We are talking plenty of tons of
both substances (what, the US just bought something like 5 tons of Russian
materials--the problem is, we don't know (at least in the unclassified sources)
whether this was 3/4, 1/2, 1/4 or what of the Russian stockpile!--even more
scary, they probably don't either!) of which
either can be very dangerous in many forms.  Most reactors literally pump
this stuff out.  Any nation with a nuclear reactor can have weapons grade
material in a matter of time, it simply means recycling the spent fuel rods
(for uranium), and even less for plutonium.
This is expensive, as Emmanuel said.  Most nations, with no nuclear weapons
ambitions, prefer the cheaper route--new fuel in the rods.  Problem is, what
do you do with the old?  Get the idea?  We (joe blow) get nuked, sooner or
later, either way.

Incidentally, the US government, bowing to popular anti-
nuclear sentiment, has nixed R&D for "closed system reactors" that the
scientists really want.  They burn much more efficiently, leaving little waste.
The problem is the US invested so much in first generation reactors, and with
the public's fear of things nuclear, no progress can be made toward making the
environment safer (in meaningful terms.)  Notice about 10 lines ago, I said
this nuclear material is dangerous in many forms.  Emmanuel  is right again
about the dangers of ingesting plutonium.  Take about a gram and put in
the water supply of Paris, and you have a couple of hundred thousand dead
Parisians.  I think think this negates the        argument for uranium being
more dangerous than Plutonium, by the way.  After all, poisoning a water
source is neither a complex job, nor original (one of the oldest forms of
bio/toxin warfare is to put dead animals in the water).

Another interesting tidbit is the fact that some of the purest U235 around
is in the reactors of nuclear submarines.  Anyone know how many of these
babies have been lost by the US and USSR?  Lots.  Not many have been deemed
feasible for recovery by the governments--and sometimes there are weapons
themselves onboard.  But even if there aren't, some are only in a hundred or
so feet of water, so again, with guys as dedicated as the proverbial Beruit
barracks bomber, you can get your own.

Needless to say, proliferation is a huge problem that we better worry about.
North Korea is back in the news.  For those of you old enough to recall the
negotiations that "ended" the Korean conflict (it never ended),    you can
imagine how successful these negotiations have been.  Now the reprocessing
cycle _could_ be over, and they are ready to start the reactor again.  This,
folks (and here is a really political plug) is a REAL problem.  Consider that
the NPT comes up for renewal again in 1995.  If a majority of the countries
reinitial it, it will be a dismal failure.  Think about that!  Without a
signiture rate of about 95 percent, proliferation will be too big a problem
for any international organization, regime, or the US alone and with "nuclear
club" allies to handle.  If N. Korea restarts that reactor and does not bow
to the IAEA, then some of our allies in the Far East will be hard pressed to
stay in the regime.  Japan, who has the capability to produce a bomb in about
24 hours from a standing start, has already threatened to withhold a signature
to the NPT.  Others have security dillemas that are just as great.  FULL
DISCLOSURE by the N. Koreans is the only thing that will resolve this.  As it
is now, the US government's negotiating stance is "dont do that anymore."
However, the evidence of what happened in the past (when NK shut their reactor
down in 88 or 89) is gone.  If the worst case is true, then Kim Jong Il, or
whoever is really in charge over there, could have a couple of Hiroshima
or Nagasaki type bombs, with a fuel for a few more due to this last reproces-
sing.

Sorry about that.  I, for one am horrified at what appeasement could mean for
the entire world this time.

Thought for the day:  _Appeasement_ is politics by another means.

Cassady Craft
Department of Political Science
University of Georgia
e-mail CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
or
CCRAFT@LANL.GOV

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 5 Oct 1994 23:53:43 -0700
From:    John Holtz <holtz@EAGLE.SANGAMON.EDU>
Subject: TRIV: Largest Group of Prisoners

My spontaneous, unresearched response...

> Here's a fun trivia question:
> What was the largest number of prisoners taken in a single battle?
> We'll probably need to precisely define "battle" in terms of time & space.
> Answer for the following nationalities:
>    American (Battle of the Bulge?)
        Lee's army at Appomattox?

>    British (Dunkirk?)
        Singapore (may have to change this to Commonwealth, not just
Brits)

>    French
        Sedan (1870)

>    Soviet
        Kiev pocket (1941) or Vyzama/Bryansk (1941)

>    German
        Ruhr pocket (1945)

>    Italian
        Tunisia (1943)

>    Japanese (Okinawa?)
        No idea; something in the Shogunate civil wars?

Of course, this may be taking this discussion away from WW2.

jwh

--
John W. Holtz, Asst. Professor       INTERNET: holtz@eagle.sangamon.edu
Sangamon State University Library       PHONE: (217) 786-6633
Springfield, IL  62794-9243               FAX: (217) 786-6208

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 03:52:00 UTC
From:    "Edward S. Miller" <e.miller4@GENIE.GEIS.COM>
Subject: HYPO:  The "Big" what-if?

  > Could Germany have won the Second World War? -- Casssady, "The Big what-
  > if"

  > Please define the limits of the term "won" i.e. accomplishing no less
  > than ...?   -- Steve, "Speculation"

Steve asks the right question.  Did Germany ever state it's aim as clearly
as the western Allies unconditional surrender?  Would Hitler have settled
for, say, conquest of European Russia, neutered regimes in Siberia and
Britain, and a wary but passive US?  If so, for how long?  World conquest
seems too far fetched for a plausible outcome.

Edward S. Miller      Stamford, CT    e.miller4@genie.geis.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 04:00:09 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <tkeller@LOGICON.COM>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 10-06-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
10/06 Fri.  Japanese naval vessels sunk:
             Gunboat  SAGA, by mine, off Hong Kong,
              22 d. 17'N., 114 d. 10'E.
             Coast defense vessel NO. 21, by submarine SEAHORSE
              (SS-304), South China Sea,
              19 d. 17'N, 118 d. 08'E.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
tkeller@logicon.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 07:40:17 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: BV-151 ne BV-141

     I'll leave the BV-151 for someone else.





     Assuming the BV stands for Blohn und Voss, are you referring to the BV
     141, the assymetical short range recon aircraft??


     Yes, I admit, I messed up the number.  That's what happens when I
     think faster than I type.  (You don't want to know what happens when I
     type faster than I think)


     Steve L. New

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 04:42:22 -0700
From:    John Davis <jbd@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 07-OCT-1944

On 07-OCT-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The battle for the port of Antwerp continues. The Canadian
3rd Division sends reinforcements to the north bank of the Leopold Canal;
but they fail to arrive due to heavy German resistance. Wormeldange is
captured by the US XX Corps. This results in Luxembourg being liberated as
far as the Moselle.  The 90th Division is slowed down by German
counter-attacks in the Maizieres-les-Metz sector.

Italian Front - Units of the US IV and II Corps advance in the Monte Stanco,
Castelnuovo di Bisano and Monte Cavallara sectors. In the eastern sector, the
V Corps opens an offensive against the Rubicon.

Peleliu - Operations against the Japanese positions on Mount Umurbrogol are
suspended following new unsuccessful attacks carried out by the 5th Marines.

Pacific - Aircraft based in the Marianas carry out the heaviest raids to date
on Iwo Jima.

The Homefront
-------------
World Series - The Cardinals even the series by taking the fourth game, 5-1.

College Football - Army 59, Brown 7; Navy 55, Penn State 14; Alabama 63,
Howard 7; Michigan State 2, Kentucky 0; Notre Dame 26, Tulane 0; South
Carolina 0, Miami 0.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "Facts On File Yearbook 1944,
Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.netcom.com in directory /pub/jbd or
through the WWW at URL: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/jbd/ww2.html.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis     jbd@netcom.com      WWW: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/jbd/ww2.html
Cary, N.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 07:40:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: Misc

I picked this article up from the soc.history.war.world-war-ii
Usenet group and thought it might be of interest to this group.  I
sent e-mail to the author asking him if he wanted to join our
group.

Jack McKillop



This last month I was on a two week river trip in the Grand Canyon with, among
others, Martin Litton.  Some might recognize the name as a premier
enviornmentalist, river runner, founder of Grand Canyon Dories, and so on.
What I didn't know was his participation in WWII, including D-Day, Market
Garden, the Bulge, and Varsity.  As we were floating along one day, he started
talking about flying gliders in Market-Garden.  It turned out he had been a
transport pilot and had dropped paratroops during D-Day, but was washed out
when he was found to be color blind so he ended up being a glider pilot.
(when he applied to fly gliders they never asked and he didn't tell!)  One
story he told was after landing his glider safely during M-G, he and two other
glider pilots were making their way back to Allied lines.  Sleeping in a
forest one night, they could hear friendly troops marching by.   One of his
companions shifted his position, making noise; suddenly the marching stopped
and they could hear bolts being drawn back.  Even though they were American
troops, Martin knew they would shoot first and ask later, so he yelled "Be
still, you stupid son-of-a-bitch!" and the troops moved on.  He also related
flying supplies in during the Bulge, and then flying casualties out using a
snatch-and-go system wherein the glider was on the ground in a harness and was
picked up by a C-47 flying low and slow.   Finally he was in Varsity, the drop
across the Rhine in March 1945, and was wounded.  I thought "no wonder running
the rapids in the Grand Canyon hold no terrors for him."

Speaking of Pelieleu, I was on the Yampa River earlier this summer; one of the
passengers was an old guy from Florida.  One day he mentioned being in the
Navy during the war, so in my innocent curiousity I pressed him about what he
did.  He said he was a radioman, and was at Tarawa, Bougainville, and
Pelilieu, but as he started talking about it he began to tremble and break
down, so I quickly changed the subject.

And finally, in the Grand Canyon a few years ago (I do a lot of river trips,
professionally) there was another old guy who mentioned being in the Navy.  I
asked him where, and he said he'd been on the USS SALT LAKE CITY, a heavy
cruiser with a distinguished combat record.  It so happened I had written an
article on the "Swayback Maru," as she was called, so we talked at some
length.  It turned out he was the guy, featured in LIFE magazine (15 minutes
of fame!) who had been shot in the head by a line-throwing rocket; the rocket
and line went through his head, the heat of the rope passing through sealing
the wound (but OUCH!).  The rope was cut off, he was evacuated, and it was
removed at a hospital.   Still had the scars on both sides of his head.  He
later sent me lots of info on the SLC, including stuff on the crew members
association and so on.  You meet interesting folks on the river!

Roy Webb
rwebb@alexandria.lib.utah.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 08:08:36 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <sep@TVSS2.COMMNET.EDU>
Subject: Re: POL:Hiroshima

Cassidy Craft writes:

[much stuff deleted]

>Another interesting tidbit is the fact that some of the purest U235 around
>is in the reactors of nuclear submarines.  Anyone know how many of these
>babies have been lost by the US and USSR?  Lots.  Not many have been deemed
>feasible for recovery by the governments--and sometimes there are weapons
>themselves onboard.  But even if there aren't, some are only in a hundred or
>so feet of water, so again, with guys as dedicated as the proverbial Beruit
>barracks bomber, you can get your own.

I have to take issue here Cas, The US has lost a grand total of 2, count'em
2 nuclear submarines, the Thresher and the Scorpion, and neither are anyway
near a hundred feet underwater. The Soviets have lost three (I think), one
of which was recovered by the US (Glossamer Explorer, 1970's) under a cloud
of controversy, and that one was in water much deeper.

Please, correct me if I'm wrong, or my fading memory fails, but I'd hardly
call the combined losses of 5 or so submarines during the past 35 years
"lots". They are not exactly waiting around like ripe melons waiting some
terrorist either. I'm sure they are constantly monitored...

[more stuff deleted]

Very informative post, otherwise.

                                                                Steve

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - sep@trctc.commnet.edu |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 07:19:11 -0500
From:    Larry & Kim Jewell <jewell@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: [FYI]  Lost Service Records Found

wowylie@ix.netcom.com writes in soc.veterans:
>Over Ten million military services records for the years 1942-45 and
>1950-54 (Army
>and Air Corps) have been located. If anyone has had trouble obtaining
>copies of records for these periods, they may do so by writing:
>            National Personnel Records Center NPRC/NCPNF-C
>            9700 Page Blvd.
>            St Louis, MO 63132-5199
>If you request information, include a copy of service member's
>Form DD214.
>
>Tiger Paw


--
JEWELL@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU; Co-Moderator: BYRD.MU.WVNET.EDU (Historical docs)
"Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly
unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life."
Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 07:46:17 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: WEAP: F82 Revisited

     John Meierhoffer
     jmeierho@mail.nysed.gov New York State Education Dept
     518 486 2390
     Rm 5B44  Cultural Ed Center
     Albany NY 12230


     John,

     Excellant response.  Let me to my research, and I'll try to find your
     answers.

     I shall rebound!

     Steve New

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 08:25:10 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Hiroshima

     The Arado E.381 had a span of (roughly) 16ft, length 16ft,
     empty weight 1,963 lb.  *** Pilot lay prone, amidst T-Stoff and
     C-Stoff fuel tanks. ***

     -Brian Nicklas


     Cassady,

     Grab your hammer, I think we found a volunteer!




        Steve L. New                     .............................
        Weapon System Manager            .............................
        Battalion Countermine Set        ............ /\ .............
        U.S. Army TACOM AMSTA-IM-FR1D    ............/  \.............
        DSN: 786-5403  FAX: 786-7788     ............    .............
        EMAIL  NEWST@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL   ............    .............

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 08:34:39 EST
From:    Aldo Hubert <HUBERT@PHYSICAL.UNCG.EDU>
Subject: Re: TACT:Could they have won ?

Hello, William, Terry & All,



>    But to answer your question, I would have used those resources,
>accumulated at great sacrifice, for reserves on the Eastern Front, as
>best as possible.

Supposing (to the ire of some) that, instead of  to the Bulge,  the
resources had been sent to the E. Front, do you think this may have
altered the Political out-come of the war (i.e. perhaps less than 1/2
of Europe would have ended-up communist).  It seems like a silly,
obvious thought, but I'm curious if anyone has thoughts on the
matter.





Aldo_Hubert@UNCG.edu


Aldo M. Hubert
University of North Carolina at Greensboro
Greensboro NC 27412

OBESA CANTAVIT

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 08:46:36 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Fat Man question

On Wed, 5 Oct 1994 18:38:01 EDT Cassady Craft said:
>By the way, you can make a bomb with a piece of uranium and a hammer--and one
>_really_ dedicated individual.  I think the guy who "did" the Marine's
>barracks in Beruit would have qualified.

You are likely to get a "fizzle" that way.  More interesting is simply to
include some uranium with conventional explosives.  You won't get an atomic
blast, but you will create a lot of local fallout.

ken koester
maint2@ers.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 08:42:33 -0500
From:    Drew Halevy <dhalevy@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: HYPO: The "Big" what-if?

I always got the impression from readings that Hitler wanted the UK on
his side, and would have left them alone if the let him have his way in
Europe. As for Hitlier and the US, I don't think that he gave the US much
thought or consideration, and I have even read that he had a feeling that
the US would collapes under its own racial/social problems. -Drew

Drew  Philip Halevy      |      If we are marked to die, we are enow
Department of History    |      To do our country loss; and if to live,
University of Arkansas   |      The fewer the men, the greater
DHALEVY@COMP.UARK.EDU    |      share of honor. -Henry V Act IV Scene III

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 09:50:00 EST
From:    "Eliot K. Friedman" <ekfriedm@AEC1.APGEA.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Motivation Behind the SA Purge

File item: FOO.C 10/6/94 9:12AM

3035
>On Wed, 5 Oct 1994 10:14:41 +0059 Ira H Krakow said:
>>Brad,
>>
>>  The Night of the Long Knives occurred in 1934 when Hitler was
>>consolidating power.  His biggest rivals were an internal Nazi
>>group called the SA, headed by Ernst Rohm.  The SA was essentially
>>a private army headed by Rohm, and posed a potential threat to Hitler.
>>Rohm was also a homosexual.  Hitler, and his ally Heinrich Himmler of
>>the SS, concocted a scheme to have Rohm discovered in flagrante delicto
>>and assassinated him.  While they were at it, they assassinated a lot
>>of the top SA brass, thus eliminating this group as a rival.  Apparently
>>knives were the weapon of choice.  The elimination of the SA, along
>>with the Reichstag fire, were the key events in Hitler's consolidation
>>of power.
>>
>Then William Lippert said>
>
>   It was not Hitler and Himmler who plotted the neutralization of the SA
>and the elimination of the top brass, but Himmler and Goering.  Hitler was
>very close friends with Roehm, and it took some 24-48 hours for him to decide
>that Roehm should be eliminated.  Himmler disliked, among other things, that
>the SS was subordinate to the SA.  It was a struggle for power on his part.
>Goering, also, desired more power.  As for Himmler, some have maintained that
>his swing to support Hitler and fight Roehm was taken at the last minute -
>it could have been the other way around.  Additionally, it is more or less
>proven that the plot was concocted by such personalities as Rheinhard
>Heydrich, for his own ends.  The fact that Roehm was homosexual, however,
>had little bearing as to the motives of the purge, though it was used as
>an explanation to the public.  Hitler had been aware of the top SA's homesexual
>tendencies for quite since the very early days of the 1920's.

As I recall from my readings, there was more than just internal party
power at stake.  Roehm and the SA had become a liability to Hitler and
the Party in their attempts to gain the support of the Wehrmacht and
the rich, groups without whom, chancellorship or not, Hitler would not
have been able to impose the kind of fundamental changes he desired for
Germany.

Roehm and the top SA men had ambitions to become commissioned officers
in the Wehrmacht, a matter of considerable social significance in prewar
Germany.  The incumbent officers were anxious to keep "common street
brawlers" out of their "gentleman's club".  "Night of the Long Knives"
was a way for the Party to reassure the Wehrmacht that it would keep its
monopoly of national defense.

Additionally, Roehm made the mistake of believing the "Socialist" in
"National Socialism" (not surprisingly, in the political campaigns before
1933, Party posters had alternately stressed the two words, depending on
the character of the neighborhood they were posted in).  Roehm supported
policies that would have led to redistribution of wealth.  The biggest
industrialists wouldn't fully support Hitler while Roehm was around.

El

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 10:17:30 -0400
From:    James E Irwin <paa5137@DPSC.DLA.MIL>
Subject: MEDIA: Monty's PJs

>From the DoD Newswire 28 September 1994


:FIELD MARSHALL MONTGOMERY'S FLANNEL PYJAMAS SOLD

    LONDON, Sept 27  - A pair of pink flannel pyjamas which
once belonged to British war hero Field Marshal Bernard Montgomery
sold for 319 pounds ($500) at auction on Tuesday.
     The pyjamas, complete with name tags, had languished in an attic
for 50 years. Montgomery, victor of El Alamein and the general who led
Allied troops into France during World War Two, had lent the nightwear
to Brigadier Hugh Mainwaring.
     Mainwaring forgot to return the pyjamas, and when he got back
home to Britain his wife gave them to a raffle as a prize.
     May Campbell, now 60, won the general's pyjamas, which carry
"B.L. Montgomery" tags on top and bottom. She put them in her attic,
where she forgot them until this year.
     "I am delighted with the result of the sale and pleased to think
that they will now be put to good use," she said in a statement
released by auctioneers Sotheby's. "Hopefully they have now found a
good home." Sotheby's said the pyjamas were sold to an absentee bidder
who left a written offer.

=====


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 James E. Irwin (Jim)                  Internet address:
 Defense Personnel Support Center        jirwin@dpsc.dla.mil
 2800 S. 20th Street                   215-737-3678
 Philadelphia PA  19101-8419           Autovon 444-3678

                     "Never in the field of human conflict
                     was so much owed by so many to so few."
                               Winston S. Churchill
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 10:26:21 -0400
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: HYPO: The "Big" what-if?

Drew Halevy <dhalevy@COMP.UARK.EDU> writes:
> I always got the impression from readings that Hitler wanted the UK on
> his side, and would have left them alone if the let him have his way in
> Europe. As for Hitlier and the US, I don't think that he gave the US much
> thought or consideration, and I have even read that he had a feeling that
> the US would collapes under its own racial/social problems. -Drew

        There is a very good article in the Spring 1992 issue of Military
History Quarterly concerning Germany's declaration of war against the US.
It is written by Gerhard Weinberg, a professor of history at the University
of North Carolina, who has had access to Hitler's writings.  Weinberg's
contention is that Hitler always intended to wage war against the US.

        "The reality is that war with the United States had been
        included in Hitler's agenda for years, that he had deferred
        hostilities only because he wanted to begin them at a time,
        and under circumstances, of his own choosing...  Already
        in the summer of 1928 he had asserted in his second book
        (not published until I did it for him in 1961, as "Hitlers
        zweites Buch") that strengthening and preparing Germany for
        war with the United States was one of the tasks of the
        National Socialist movement."
--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
The only way I got to keep them Tigers interested is to
let them shoot holes in me.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 15:38:02 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVS1.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: POL:Hiroshima

On Wed, 5 Oct 1994, Cassady Craft wrote:

> several ways that this might be misleading.  First, the reason why it may
> be more dangerous (Emmanuel correct me if I'm mistaking your meaning) is
> because of the simplicity of the weapons design required.  It really has
> nothing to do with U235 or 239.

Correct. An U235 bomb is simpler to design than a Pu 239 one.

> either can be very dangerous in many forms.  Most reactors literally pump
> this stuff out.  Any nation with a nuclear reactor can have weapons grade
> material in a matter of time, it simply means recycling the spent fuel rods
> (for uranium), and even less for plutonium.

Again: No! You have to recycle spent fuel rods for Plutonium 239, but not
for Uranium 235. Nuclear reactors actually burn up U235; you insert rods
with (for a PWR system) 4% of U235, and you remove them when the level of
U235 has decreased too much. U235 has to be won from natural ores, 0.7%
average of the U in it. And Uranium ores are plenty. The enriching process
for U is more expensive than refining Pu 239, but that doesn't mean that
the latter is very easy. The amount and purity of  Pu 239 produced also
depends on the reactor type and time the rods are left in.

> Incidentally, the US government, bowing to popular anti-
> nuclear sentiment, has nixed R&D for "closed system reactors" that the
> scientists really want.  They burn much more efficiently, leaving
> little waste.

This is getting rather far from WWII. But if you are talking about 'fast
breeder' designs that produce more (Plutonium) fuel than they burn
(Uranium) up, I would not be so happy with those. They are difficult to
control, with shorter reaction times than conventional designs, and are
cooled by liquid sodium --- water would slow down the neutrons too much.

> about the dangers of ingesting plutonium. Take about a gram and put in
> the water supply of Paris, and you have a couple of hundred thousand dead
> Parisians.  I think think this negates the argument for uranium being
> more dangerous than Plutonium, by the way.

I am not a chemist, but I understood that spreading Pu around in this way
would *not* be that easy. Can someone fill in that? It is true that the
allowed safety levels for Pu ingestion are extremely low.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 09:48:51 -0500
From:    Greg Kelley <gregk@STPAUL.LIB.MN.US>
Subject: Re: Italy in WW2---Elites, All Armies

ooh, boy, does this mean we can talk about the Rumanian Army's Royal
Guard Division, and maybe even the Conducator's Bodyguard Regiment?  Can we?
Please? Huh?  (ohboyohboyohboy)

C'mon, I'm willing to discount the value of Iron Guard/Greenshirt assault
units used during the Russian campaign--personally, I figured them to be
a handy expedient for Antonescu to rid the country of political loonies,
but the Royal Guards, and, of course, the Conducator's Bodyguard, now
THERE were some nifty troops.....

Anyone?


                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          gregk@stpaul.lib.mn.us

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 10:09:01 -0500
From:    Greg Kelley <gregk@STPAUL.LIB.MN.US>
Subject: Re: SS in combat

what-- no credit to Alfred Naujocks for creative thought?

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          gregk@stpaul.lib.mn.us

On Wed, 5 Oct 1994, William L. Huber - SAA wrote:

> >         The facts, however, are that a squad of SS/Gestapo took a group
> > of political prisoners from a Nazi concentration camp to a border
> > point close to Gleiwitz. The prisoners were forced to put on Polish uniforms,
>
> To *really* pick nits, let me add that Aryan looking prisoners were
> brought along to be laid out in German uniforms (boarder guards etc)
> along with others dressed in Polish uniforms to really make it look
> good.  That Walter Schellenburg, what a guy.  He thought of
> everything.... :-)
>
> Cheers, Bill Huber / whuber@sadis01.kelly.af.mil
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 11:28:19 CCS
From:    Jorge Merino <jem@VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Arado Ar-234C with E-381

> The Ar 234C never really entered production, it remained one of the
> numerous Ar 234 prototypes. There also was an Ar 234P version, this was a
> nighfighter with a conventional 'solid' nose. Just wait for some
> manufacturer to produce a model of this one...  (One of the more
> remarkable 'flights of bold imagination' of a model manufacturer that I
> have seen was a nightfighter version of the Messerschmitt P.1011
> swing-wing prototype, armed with equally imaginative air-to-air missiles.)

Yes, DML has a couple of versions of the P.1101, including that nightfighter
version with AA missiles. Other imaginative DML kits are nightfighter versions
of the Gotha (Horten) Go-229 (two seater), and I think, the Ar-234 version
you mentioned (I have to review the catalog again). If I'm not wrong, there
is also a Me-163 nightfighter. Huma has also produced many kits of late-war
german projects. There is some kit of a Ta-184?? jet fighter. Looks similar
to the early Lavochkin desings. Hope someone could talk further about this
plane.

Jorge Merino

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 11:29:43 EDT
From:    William Lippert <WL1958A@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Motivation Behind the SA Purge

On Thu, 6 Oct 1994 09:50:00 EST Eliot K. Friedman said:
>
>As I recall from my readings, there was more than just internal party
>power at stake.  Roehm and the SA had become a liability to Hitler and
>the Party in their attempts to gain the support of the Wehrmacht and
>the rich, groups without whom, chancellorship or not, Hitler would not
>have been able to impose the kind of fundamental changes he desired for
>Germany.
>
>Roehm and the top SA men had ambitions to become commissioned officers
>in the Wehrmacht, a matter of considerable social significance in prewar
>Germany.  The incumbent officers were anxious to keep "common street
>brawlers" out of their "gentleman's club".  "Night of the Long Knives"
>was a way for the Party to reassure the Wehrmacht that it would keep its
>monopoly of national defense.
>
>Additionally, Roehm made the mistake of believing the "Socialist" in
>"National Socialism" (not surprisingly, in the political campaigns before
>1933, Party posters had alternately stressed the two words, depending on
>the character of the neighborhood they were posted in).  Roehm supported
>policies that would have led to redistribution of wealth.  The biggest
>industrialists wouldn't fully support Hitler while Roehm was around.
>
>El

El,
   I agree with your statements of the deeper causes of the "Long Knives"
deal.  There were many factors and it was a complex situation.  My attempt,
however, was to reply to the specific event - the purge itself - and why it
happened at that exact time and in that exact manner.  In sum, I maintain
that it happened as it did because of Himmler and Goering pushing for more
power.  The army factor, it is true, was there but secondary to the immediate
actions.  Same with the economic, SA power, etc. factors.  Hitler was, I think,
bamboozled by H and G, and that was the pebble that started the avalanche,
so to speak.

William Lippert,
The American University.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 15:14:00 UTC
From:    "Edward S. Miller" <e.miller4@GENIE.GEIS.COM>
Subject: Carlson's Raiders

  > John Davis and Jack McKillop ask about Carlson's Raiders:

  The leading scholar of the Raiders who is writing a bio of Evans F.
Carlson is Phyllis A. Zimmerman of Ball State University.  We shared a
podium at a USMC seminar at Quantico a couple of years ago.  She gave a fine
talk.
  I recall FDR's son James was Raider.  Carlson did carry on a private
correspondence with the president.  FDR, like Churchill, seemed to have a
romantic weakness for Special Ops early in the war.
  Ed Miller   e.miller4@genie.geis.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 11:20:45 CDT
From:    Robert Hohlt <rhohlt@MGMSERV1.MGM.SAIC.COM>
Subject: Re: Switzerland in WWII

Terry, Ken and or all,

Which allied air forces if any, were apt to stray over
Switzerland airspace from time to time(accidentally of course),
and what was the policy of the allied air forces if they were
attacked by them(Swiss/neutrals).

Providing the allied aircraft were able(not shot up too badly)
to evade and or fight back.

  ?? Shoot them down in a nonbelligerent manor?

  ?? Cut them in two with no malice aforethought???


Just curious,


Robert Hohlt, Jr.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 11:23:37 CDT
From:    Robert Hohlt <rhohlt@MGMSERV1.MGM.SAIC.COM>
Subject: {WEAP} P-38

Hello all,

John Meierhoffer wrote :

>A some citations that support the proposition that the P-38 was
>outclassed as an air superiority fighter over Germany:

{many good quotations, references and page numbers deleted}

Wouldn't dispute any of them (references) but everytime I read
about how the P-38 didn't do so good against the German single
engine fighters, I remember reading that the P-38 was designed
and engineered as a bomber intercepter/killer.

(my reference is 650 miles away in League City Public Library)

To me the record of the P-38 used in any kind of dogfighter
capacity shows that the design was at least somewhat adaptable
and the pilots that flew that bomber killer in the fighter/escort
role deserve an enormous tip of the hat too.

How about it Emmanuel, P-38 adaptable bomber killer and/or pathetic
air superiority fighter?



Just my opinion,


Robert Hohlt, Jr.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 12:27:26 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: POL:Hiroshima

On Thu, 6 Oct 1994 15:38:02 +0100 Emmanuel Gustin said:
>On Wed, 5 Oct 1994, Cassady Craft wrote:
>> about the dangers of ingesting plutonium. Take about a gram and put in
>> the water supply of Paris, and you have a couple of hundred thousand dead
>> Parisians.  I think think this negates the argument for uranium being
>> more dangerous than Plutonium, by the way.
>
>I am not a chemist, but I understood that spreading Pu around in this way
>would *not* be that easy. Can someone fill in that? It is true that the
>allowed safety levels for Pu ingestion are extremely low.

Nor I, but this seems a little improbable, not on the grounds of toxicity,
but on the grounds of actually being able to ingest any of the stuff.
How could you guarantee dispersion?  You'd be more likely to make one
building, or even one apartement, dead as opposed to several arrondisements.

The subject is interesting, but I suggest interested parties take it private
before our long-suffering listowner feels obliged to speak up (-:

ken koester
maint2@ers.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 10:54:41 -0500
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <TWATTS@EXODUS.VALPO.EDU>
Subject: Churchill's bad decisions (from Economic Causes of the War)

Bob Stewart pointed out that Churchill wanted to invade the Balkans, a
bad decision.  Joe Barone replied that Anzio was Churchill's idea too.
While I think Churchill was an incredibly inspirational wartime leader,
I am convinced more and more that he had a very bad habit of interfering
with operations and almost always made the wrong decision.

How many bad decisions can you folks come up with that Winnie made?
One that comes to my mind is send most of the military resources from
North Africa in early 1941 to Greece; instead of probably taking all of
North Africa before the Africa Corps could intervene, he made the
political decision to prop up Greece, who was obviously going to be
overrun by the Germans.

Anyone think of other times when Churchill made decisions that were
bad ideas?

Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 09:45:21 -0800
From:    Yarbrough James L <James.L.YARBROUGH@STATE.OR.US>
Subject: Media: Wait for Purple Heart

>From Statesman Journal, October 6, 1994:

Wait for Purple Heart spans 50 years
Emi Endo Statesman Reporter

Talk about being patient.

Frank Hills of Salem finally received a Purple Heart award - 50 years after
being wounded in World War II.

He was presented the award on Oct. 1 at a WWII veteran reunion in Charleston,
S.C.

The U.S. Marine veteran was injured when a Japanese soldier thrust a bayonet
into Hill's upper right arm.

That happened on the South Pacific island of Peleliu, Palau, in the wee hours
of Sept. 22, 1944.

The Americans fought a monthlong assault to take over the island.

"All I know is that the Japanese were trying to infiltrate through our lines,"
Hills said.

After he was wounded - by a soldier wielding a bayonet in his hand - the
22-year-old sought help at a battalion aid station.

"They stitched my arm and asked me what I wanted to do," Hills said.  Instead
of seeking safety on board his ship, he decided to go back to his unit.

"I wanted to be with my buddies," said Hills, who was then a private.

So, he kept fighting.

He said the pain didn't bother him until a few days later.

After the war, Hills figured that the report of his injury just got lost in the
confusion of all the mortar and machine gun fire.

He knew he should have gotten the Purple Heart, he said, because he later got
two for serving in the Korean conflict.  In that war, he got shrapnel in his
right shopulder and a gunshot wound in his left leg.

"The reason I didn't do anything about it before," Hills said, " was that
everybody that was with me either got killed or died.  I never got in touch
with them."

That was untuil Hills, now 72, came across the name of his commanding officer
in a WWII veternas' newsletter a few years ago.

He called Lt. Col. Arthur Parker, who immediately remembered Hills and the
incident.

Parker said he recalled how unusual it was that Hills wanted to go back to his
unit.

"He went back in one of the most dangerous places of all," Parker said, " all
at his own request."

And now, Hills' request for his award has been filled.

Hills said he felt especially honored that Parker was the one to present the
long-overdue award.

----end of article----

This is the first mention of the fighting in the Pacific that the paper has
printed.  At least that I can find.

Jim

James.L.YARBROUGH@STATE.or.us

New rules adopted by the agency require me to state that all my opinions are
mine, not that anybody else would want them, and not to hold the State of
Oregon or anybody else responsible.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 13:03:22 -0400
From:    Warren Thompson <THOMPSON@ACAD.LVC.EDU>
Subject: HIST -- SA purge

Question to those out there: I should know this, but I somehow don't:

        What role, if any, did Heydrich play in the purge?

-- Warren Thompson
LEBANON VALLEY COLLEGE
Annville PA 17003

thompson@acad.lvc.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 13:07:49 -0500
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Italy in WW2---Elites, All Armies

        Hey, Greg...where are you finding all this stuff about the
Rumanians?  I am also for some obscure reason interested in the performance,
equipment, etc, of the smaller European powers and I'd love to read some of the
sources you obviously have.  I already have my university's ILL dept looking
for a copy of J.Lee Ready's "Forgotten Axis" ("Forgotten Allies" was
first-class stuff), do you have any other suggested readings (forget Paul
Carell, I've already read everything he's written).  For instance, where did
you get that stuff about the Rumanian special guards units??

        Appreciating any help

        Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 18:14:07 +0200
From:    "A.Bouis" <dev24@BOS.WTK.SURESNES.MARBEN.FR>
Subject: TACT:Balkan strategy

Tim, Bob, very interesting answers. All arguments seem to be very valid, except that I'd like to comment, Bob,
that Hitler's loans from German banks do not result in foreign debt and therefore do not constitute a point of contradiction with the author's discourse.

Thanks, I'll try to find John Kenneth Galbraith's work if it can easily be read by someone with a scientific, not economic, education.

Your point about the "soft underbelly of Europe" enables me to bring Part II of the discussion on Fuller, as he notably disagrees with you.
What makes you think driving for Central Europe would have been a bad decision ?
Terrain considerations ? Fear of German power in 1943 ? Could it have been worse or better than Italy ?


Arnaud.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 13:50:43 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: TACT:Could they have won ?

If the resources were diverted from the bulge, the Soviets may have gotten
a piece of Germany anyway. Why? IMHO because they had a bartering chip
with Japan. They minimized their occupational intentions there so that they
could mess with Europe and impose/advance their communist doctrine to the
West. -Al

-Al

A)bort,  R)etry,  I)gnore,  V)alium?

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 12:39:20 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: SS and SA

Hello, Bill!

Great post and most interesting.

> sponsored formations.  Same for NSDAP leaders too.  There was one
> Gauleiter who served as a Gefreiter in a Gebirgsjaeger Regt.  Baldur
> von Schirach (Reichjugendfuehrer) served as a Leutnant in the army for

    I just wanted to add that von Schirach served with the
Grossdeutschland Division during the war.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 12:44:09 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: TACT:Could they have won ?

Hello, Emery!

> Wasn't this the show STALIN: PORTRAIT OF A BLOOD TYRANT?  It
> occcasionally airs on the Discovery Channel as a multi-segmented
> documentary.  It's a good program.

    Yes.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 13:36:55 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: HYPO:  The "Big" what-if?

Hello, Cassady!

To answer your question, I think you would have to consider if Hitler
was out to take on the world, I would say no. If, as I think, his
aims only went as far as Europe, I would say yes, if the US had
stayed out of it.

More on this later.

Terry
> Very simple hypothetical question:  Could Germany have won the Second World
> War?  I expect reasonable answers, well thought out, ably argued, and with
> brilliant, witty, and inciteful prose!
>
> (No, this is not a trick question)
>
>
> Thought for the day:  The easy way is always mined.
>
> Cassady Craft
> Department of Political Science
> University of Georgia
> e-mail CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
> or
> CCRAFT@LANL.GOV
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 13:40:40 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Ar234C with E381

Hello, Joe!

I can speak to the Ar-234C from experience as I have a good
relationship to a fellow who had flown that aircraft.

For specific info, I will post that to you tomorrow. In short the
four engined version of the Ar-234 represented a compromise with the
aircraft engine industry as the available Jumo-004 engines, consigned
at the time to the Me-262 program left this jet bomber program in the
lurch and this aircraft, the Ar-234C was forced to accept a lesser
powered version, hence the four engines. I believe these engines were
made by BMW rather than the Junkers factory.

I will post to you the info on this aircraft tomorrow.

Terry
> are from the line art from the catalog so I could be way off.)  Can any
> of the resident aircraft specialists offer any info on these planes?
> Thanks.
> --
> Joe Barone
> m1b@ssd.ray.com
> Look, when we was in the bocage country, we was assaulted by them Tigers!
> You know what I mean by assaulted, hunh?!  Well, I mean *assaulted*!!
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 13:44:10 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: ITALY IN WW2, MY $

Hello, Ben!

I would have one question.

> I think that this may be the beginning of an interesting thread to discuss:
> just really how good were the so-called "elites" of a country or a country's
> armed services. In the case of the Marine Corps, we had Carlson's 2d Raider
> Battalion on the west coast, comprised of volunteers who went through an
> interview by Carlson or one of his officers.

    How would Carlson's Raiders have compared with the Merrill's
Marauders? The personnel in this outfit were also interviewed by
Merrill before being accepted, and the same was done with Colonel
William O. Darby's Rangers. I realize these are two army outfits, but
they both carry the same appellation, namely, elite units.

    Any thoughts?


    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 13:49:44 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gustav Geraet

Hello, Tim and others!

I have the info on the Paris Gun, and there is considerable info on
this weapon. Since it relates to WWI, I can only state that what I
send would have to be compared with what I have already posted on the
Gustav.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 13:51:52 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: HIST -- SA purge

Hello, Warren!

At the time, Reinhard Heydrich didn't have a role in this as it came
earlier than his arrival on the scene. At the time, the SD was not in
existence and didn't come into existence until around 1935 and
even then, he had to compete with the Abwehr which he always regarded
as "a nest of spies".

Hope this helps.

Terry

 >
>         What role, if any, did Heydrich play in the purge?
>
> -- Warren Thompson
> LEBANON VALLEY COLLEGE
> Annville PA 17003
>
> thompson@acad.lvc.edu
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 13:53:59 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Raid in Poland

Hello, Tim!

> The raid on the radio station that kicked off the Polish campaign--wasn;
> t that conducted not by SS but by Brandenburgers???  Does anyone else
> remember this besides me???  TAS                                        as

    No. The Brandenburgers weren't considered an active unit until
much later in the war. The operation carried out at the Gleiwitz
radio station was conducted exclusively under SS supervision and
participation.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 13:59:12 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Switzerland in WWII

Hello, Robert!


> Which allied air forces if any, were apt to stray over
> Switzerland airspace from time to time(accidentally of course),
> and what was the policy of the allied air forces if they were
> attacked by them(Swiss/neutrals).

    Aircraft that landed or strayed over Switzerland were those
which could not make it back to base, i.e., severe battle damage or
low fuel reserves.

    There were instances, however, that American aircraft
deliberately landed their aircraft to escape combat.

     > Providing the allied aircraft were able(not shot up too badly)
> to evade and or fight back.
>
>   ?? Shoot them down in a nonbelligerent manor?

    No. I have never heard or read of any Swiss retaliation for
Allied aircraft flying over Switzerland.

 >   ?? Cut them in two with
no malice aforethought??? >

    The question is, what happened to these fellows after they landed
and what happened to them after repatriation. The answer that I
received on this some time back from Con Crane was that nothing
happened to them. They weren't court-martialed and in some cases,
after a reasonable confinement were sent back on flight status.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 14:02:09 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: TACT:Could they have won ?

Hello, Aldo!


> Supposing (to the ire of some) that, instead of  to the Bulge,  the
> resources had been sent to the E. Front, do you think this may have
> altered the Political out-come of the war (i.e. perhaps less than 1/2
> of Europe would have ended-up communist).  It seems like a silly,
> obvious thought, but I'm curious if anyone has thoughts on the
> matter.

    No. The outcome would not have been altered. Russian casualties
would have been higher, and some time may have been gained in keeping
them out of Eastern Germany, but the result would have been the same.
Germany would have been partitioned and occupied, as had already been
decided upon at Yalta with the details of partitioning already having
been worked out in London.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 14:05:17 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: HYPO: The "Big" what-if?

Hello, Joe!

>         There is a very good article in the Spring 1992 issue of Military
> History Quarterly concerning Germany's declaration of war against the US.
> It is written by Gerhard Weinberg, a professor of history at the University
> of North Carolina, who has had access to Hitler's writings.  Weinberg's
> contention is that Hitler always intended to wage war against the US.

    I don't think there is any doubt about that. As you know, he had
deliberately refrained and restrained his U-Boat crews from attacking
American shipping, but he had planned or had reckoned with a war with
the US later, in 1942. The Pearl Harbor attack changed all that.

  Thanks for allowing my comment.

  Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 14:13:11 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: TACT:Could they have won ?

Hello, Jim!

>  An examination of the events in WWII may suggest a fairly precise answer,
> but I wonder: at what point =during= the war did the Allies believe they
> were over the hump, that victory was beyond question?

    With the successful landing in France on 6 June 1944.

    My opinion, anyway.

    Terry
>
>  Anyone?
>
>
>  - Jim Brady
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 15:12:49 -0400
From:    Bob Stewart <rstewart@CAIS.CAIS.COM>
Subject: Re: TACT:Balkan strategy

>Tim, Bob, very interesting answers. All arguments seem to be very valid, except
>that I'd like to comment, Bob,
>that Hitler's loans from German banks do not result in foreign debt and
therefor
>e do not constitute a point of contradiction with the author's discourse.

Arnaud,

        The point I was trying to make was that Fuller's loan-capitalism vs
barter system dichotomy seems to be of his own invention. Germany under
Hitler was as capitalist as the US under Roosevelt. The institution of a
barter system in trade had more to do with Germany's problem with the
outflow of wealth than any philosohic opposition to capitalism. Other
countries took steps to improve their trade balances. Roosevelt tried
purchasing gold to deflate the dollar and make exports more attractive and
imports less so.

>
>Your point about the "soft underbelly of Europe" enables me to bring Part II of
>the discussion on Fuller, as he notably disagrees with you.
>What makes you think driving for Central Europe would have been a bad
decision ?
>Terrain considerations ? Fear of German power in 1943 ? Could it have been
worse
> or better than Italy ?
>

        Probably the biggest negatives were the grearter distance from
logistacal and air bases and the terrain of the area. The problem with
Italy, fighting up a narrow, mountainous peninsula was that it tied up a
much greater percentage of our resources than of the German's. If that had
been our principal route of attack the war might have gone on til 1946. A
balkan campaign would have yielded similar results, with perhaps a greater risk.





     Bob Stewart    rstewart@cais.com   (202) 232-3433
     1835 Lamont St., NW
     Washington, DC

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 15:34:15 -0400
From:    David Rising <drising@ACS.BU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Motivation Behind the SA Purge

El said:

> Roehm and the top SA men had ambitions to become commissioned officers
> in the Wehrmacht, a matter of considerable social significance in prewar
> Germany.  The incumbent officers were anxious to keep "common street
> brawlers" out of their "gentleman's club".  "Night of the Long Knives"
> was a way for the Party to reassure the Wehrmacht that it would keep its
> monopoly of national defense.

Wasn't Roehm a lieutenant (captain?) during the 1st WW? I think that it's
pretty clear that Night of the Long Knives was more of a consolidation of
Himmler/Goering/Hitler/s power. Strasser/Roehm/et al weren't following the
direction they wanted to go, so they were killed.
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 15:39:38 EDT
From:    Cassady Craft <CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
Subject: Re: HYPO:  The "Big" what-if?

Ed, see my other posting, or yes to what you said.  I'm really getting at
the "if Germany takes Moscow, the war is over" vs. "Germany could have never
defeated Russia, because they were imregnable behind the Urals, and the Brits
were safe behind the ditch, and the US the arsenal of democracy (communism)"
argument.  I'm also looking for "key decision" that could have been decisive
in preventing Germany from winning the war.  Mr Yarborough's answer was very
cogent, I think.  I would like more details about what the Fuhrer did wrong
in the summer of 41, etc.  Lots of knowledge on the list that I would learn
from, and I'm trying to provide a mechanism.  What-if scenarios can be
excellent teaching tools, just as the "revisionist" works are.
Thanks in advance to all who partake.

Cassady Craft
Department of Political Science
University of Georgia
e-mail CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
or
CCRAFT@LANL.GOV

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 15:45:49 EDT
From:    Cassady Craft <CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
Subject: Re: POL:Hiroshima

Steve, I think the Russians may have a few more than that unaccounted for.
But I will see.  I'm sorry for misleading, I was also thinking of some of the
submarine burial grounds in the Russian north.  It was more expensive to
extract the uranium than to just scuttle the ship.  I will find more.  I'm
afraid, though, that someone is going to say wait a minute, this isn't WW II,
so we might need to rearrange somewhat.  My fault on getting away from the
subject matter of the list.

Cassady Craft
Department of Political Science
University of Georgia
e-mail CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
or
CCRAFT@LANL.GOV

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 15:18:10 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: WWII-L Digest - 2 Oct 1994 to 3 Oct 1994

Hello, Cassady!

Thanks for the note.

> Terry and others, maybe the professor was referring to the Soviet adaptation
> of the Christie chasis for their tanks.  Perhaps with the Germans training
> in Lipetsk, they acquired some of these.  Just a guess, hopefully enough
> to get someone who knows more to weigh in.

    The Christie chassis was sold or the rights to it were sold to
the Russians in the 1920's, 1923, I think, because the U.S.
Government didn't think that the development of such a vehicle would
be necessary after the end of the war to end all wars, among other
things.

    The Russians however, did develop and use this chassis for their
T-34 design, which as we all know, was one of the best tanks to be
used in WWII.

    Anyway, the US did not build tanks for the Germans, and if they
were built they were constructed in secret or in Russia.

    Thanks, again, Cassady!

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 15:25:37 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: [TRIV] Re: odd WWII air encounters

Hello, Robert!

The Germans supplied the Japanese with plans for their propeller and
jet aircraft. I believe also that some equipment for study was sent
them and delivered both by submarine and auxiliary cruiser. In the
latter case, I remember reading that the Atlantis, CO'd by Captain
Bernhard Rogge, had delivered plans design plans to the Japanese on
at least one occasion.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 15:33:29 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: POL:  Swiss Neutrality

Hello, Steve!

Thanks for the response.

>
>      Of course the return of the ME-110 crew was a violation of Swiss
>      neutrality.  But it was such a small violation, and resulted in such a
>      gain for the country (6 new fighters and the lifting of German
>      pressure) that, I'm sure, the Swiss took the realpolitik view.  What
>      impact could two fliers have had on the war effort?  At least they
>      destroyed, rather than returned, the aircraft.
>
>      When push comes to shove, a government is going to act in its national
>      interest, regardless of the "Rules of War".

    I think all countries directly or indirectly involved in the
conflict did some things in the name of expediency.



 >
>      In day to day terms, however, it was in the best interest of the Swiss
>      to maintain neutrality.  (It's kind of like secretly dealing with
>      terrorists to buy the release of hostages when official dogma is that
>      you don't deal with terrorists.  If no one finds out, you can't get
>      hurt.)

    I do agree with that.
>

    Thanks again, Steve.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 15:46:26 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Switzerland in WWII

Hello, Ken!

A documentary went into this. It was called "Whispers in the Air".

> Which brings up the question:  exactly what was internment like for a
> downed flier?  Actual imprisonment?  House arrest?  Detained in the
> appropriate embassy?  Mixture of all 3 & others I haven't thought of? (-:

    Depending on the spot, and Sweden was preferred, from what I
know, is that it was a like a country club, in that Allied fliers
were given good quarters, plenty to eat and contact with the locals.
I think in Switzerland, it was somewhat different, in that fliers
were kept under house arrest.



 > > If so, weren't the Swiss obliged to intern the
> >> Germans as well?
> >
> >    Yes, but in this instance, the pressure from Goering and the
> >German air ministry was so intense, out of fear that the Me-110 would
> >fall into Allied hands, particularly the radar equipment on board,
> >that it all resulted in a compromise situation for the Swiss. My
> >source is Janusz Piekalkiewicz' book "Luftkrieg: 1939-1945" in German
> >which goes into much detail on this episode.
>
> Think I would have raised cain, had I been an Allied government at the time (-:
> Although, perhaps the Allies were evading neutrality on Swiss soil & figured
> they were overall gainers & didn't want to rock the boat.

    I think it worked out in the best interests of both. Some Allied
fliers were repatriated after awhile and returned to flight status. I
know of no instance of any courts-martial for those who deliberately
landed their aircraft in Switzerland or Sweden. In any event all this
was kept quiet, and had it become common knowledge, a stink would
have been raised.

    Thanks, Ken.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 16:36:03 EDT
From:    Kendall Miles <T330075@UNIVSCVM.CSD.SCAROLINA.EDU>
Subject: Re: HYPO:  The "Big" what-if?

  Could Germany have won the war with their current preparations at
the beginning of the war?  Assuming they became engaged in the same
theatres they did?  They certainly could have (and should have) won
in North Africa...all that was preventing them from doing so was
not sending enough supplies when they were needed, but flooding
Tunisia with supplies when it was too late.  Eastern Front?  If not
for Mussolini's Balkan venture and the six weeks of Hitler's
indecision, they could have taken Moscow, which as Hoyt points out
in "199 Days--The Battle for Stalingrad" was "the center of
communications and government, to a far greater degree that the
capital in any other country in the world.  Moscow gone, the USSR
would be brain-dead."  But still, something in my heart tells me
that it wouldn't be that easy... Eastern front no.
   I guess a secondary question (even MORE what-if!) is could
Germany have won the war given different preparations for war?
Perhaps given Donitz's 300 U-Boats?  Or at least substantially
more than the 59 he started the war with?  With 150 U-Boats
at the start of war and a priority on their production, the
"Happy Time" could have continued, starving Great Britain.
Or (and this is my obsession and probable thesis topic) why
was the "Uralbomber" strategic bomber not built?  If it had
been, the Battle of Britain would certainly have been
different with the expanded Luftwaffe strike radius forcing
Fighter Command to spread themselves across the country
instead of just SE England.  But these are just details...
they were not done.
   I guess my problem with this topic is that Hitler and the
Germans made so many mistakes that it's hard to tell which
were the crucial ones that could have changed the outcome.
Believing Goering in the BoB?  Failing to supply Rommel
adequately?  Not producing aircraft to near capacity?  Not
taking Malta?  Hitler taking command in Russia?  Anyway,
you know these types of questions, probably better than I.
  Of course this is all MHO, and of course others will
believe differently and I'm sure will state their
beliefs more eloquently... :)   But no, Germany could not
have won the war as it was, and perhaps Hitler's character
is what it comes down to in the end...





 Kendall Miles                   "Otium sine litteris mors est."
 K.Miles@scarolina.edu              "Leisure without literature
 Graduate Student--History                   is death."

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 17:17:54 EDT
From:    Cassady Craft <CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hiroshima

Steve, OH S...T!

Cassady Craft
Department of Political Science
University of Georgia
e-mail CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
or
CCRAFT@LANL.GOV

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 16:22:39 -0500
From:    Greg Kelley <gregk@STPAUL.LIB.MN.US>
Subject: Re: Italy in WW2, HOLLOW LEGIONS title

Tim (and others)

yes, I have a copy of Cervi's THE HOLLOW LEGIONS-- a nice book.
Regarding the Italians in Albania, there is a great (well, maybe not
great, but where else ya gonna find it?) description of the heroic
defense of Durres by Abbas Cupi & the Royal Albanian Gendarmerie during
the Italian invasion of Albania in 1939.  Well spirited action, and these
were the city GENDARMES, fer cryin' out loud.. If only Zog had called out
the Army.....yes, he still would've lost, but with the Italians, you
never know.

KING ZOG AND THE STRUGGLE FOR STABILITY IN ALBANIA by Bernd Jurgen Fischer
(East European Monographs from Columbia University Press, 1984.

Cupi, by the way, went on to lead Albanian resistance fighters during
the occupation.

(now, don't get me started on Albania.  I've never agreed with Zog's 1938
reorganisation of the Royal Forestry Guards...)


                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          gregk@stpaul.lib.mn.us

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 16:28:03 -0500
From:    Greg Kelley <gregk@STPAUL.LIB.MN.US>
Subject: Re: Italy in WW2--book titles

Tim (and others)

Riccio's ITALIAN TANKS OF WORLD WAR II-- I agree, good reading material.
Wish it went into more detail about the independent tank & armoured car
companies assigned to the Dodecanese Island garrisons, though.  Anybody
have numbers available?  Just an ongoing point of interest...


                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          gregk@stpaul.lib.mn.us

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 17:38:30 EDT
From:    Cassady Craft <CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
Subject: Re: POL:Hiroshima

Sorry about the slip up on the refueling thing.  My fingers were walking too
quickly for my concentration to keep up.  Besides, I wanted to get to the
plug at the end!

I'll try to stay in the WWII discussion area.

Cassady Craft
Department of Political Science
University of Georgia
e-mail CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
or
CCRAFT@LANL.GOV

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 16:39:32 -0500
From:    Greg Kelley <gregk@STPAUL.LIB.MN.US>
Subject: Re: Italy in WW2--book titles

Tim (and others)

boy, I should've combined these into one long memo-- would've been easier
for everyone to delete with a single stroke.

Two other titles to suggest:

WHITECOATS UNDER FIRE: WITH THE ITALIAN EXPEDITIONARY COPRS IN RUSSIA, 1941
by Roy Mark-Alan.  Helios Books, 1972 (officer attached to a medical unit)

SUICIDE SQUAD: SEA DEVILS
by J. Valerio Borghese.  Regnery, 1954.  (Italian frogmen, and yes, they
operated in the Black Sea, where the Royal Rumanian Navy assisted in
protecting Axis shipping lanes)




                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          gregk@stpaul.lib.mn.us

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 16:48:49 -0500
From:    Greg Kelley <gregk@STPAUL.LIB.MN.US>
Subject: Re: Raid in Poland--Brandenburgers & Such

Anyone out there familiar with Georg von Konrat's ASSAULT FROM WITHIN?
Von Konrat was a member of the Brandenburgers and participated in
commando operations behind Soviet lines in both the Baltic States and in
Odessa.  Of course, we all know who else was down by Odessa at the time,
don't we?

(sure the Rumanians had trouble with the siege. They were up against
troops equipped with "Terror Tanks".  Why do you think they called 'em
Terror Tanks, eh?)


                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          gregk@stpaul.lib.mn.us

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 22:45:38 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVSDS.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: {WEAP} P-38

On Thu, 6 Oct 1994, Robert Hohlt wrote:

> >A some citations that support the proposition that the P-38 was
> >outclassed as an air superiority fighter over Germany:

> Wouldn't dispute any of them (references) but everytime I read
> about how the P-38 didn't do so good against the German single
> engine fighters, I remember reading that the P-38 was designed
> and engineered as a bomber intercepter/killer.
>
> How about it Emmanuel, P-38 adaptable bomber killer and/or pathetic
> air superiority fighter?

Give me a break ;-). Problem is, as with most WWII fighters, that the last
P-38s differed strongly from the first ones, so you really shouldn't make
a general statement.

It is true that the Air Corps officer that drew up the specification for
the P-38, called it an 'interceptor' rather than a 'pursuit'. It was clear
that a twin-engined fighter would have poorer manoeuvrability than a
single-engined type, and this was the price paid for heavy armament and
long range.  The RAF test unit as Boscombe Down classified the Lightnings
they tested as "not particularly manoeuvrable for a fighter". These were,
of course, the worst P-38 ever built, Mark Is without handed propellers
and turbochargers. The first experiences of USAAF units with the P-38 in
North Africa were also inauspicious, with heavy losses.

But there was considerable modification during the production of the P-38.
The P-38F-15 introduced Fowler flaps that could be lowered partially in
combat, to enhance manoeuvrability. The new cooling system of the P-38J
strongly improved the high altitude performance. The P-38J-25 model added
dive flaps that cured the compressibility problem that previously had
restricted the diving speed. It also had hydraulically boosted ailerons,
that turned the unimpressive roll performance of earlier models in one of
the fastest roll rates of any WWII fighter.

Performance-wise, the P-38J was a good match for most other fighters of
WWII. It was, at 25000ft, faster than the Bf 109G, Fw 190A, A6M5 and
Ki.84, but slower than the P-51D, P-47D and F4U. In climb, the P-38J
almost equalled the P-51D, what means that the Bf 109G and Fw 190A had a
slight edge over it --- except in zoom climb, which was the strong point
of the P-38, benefitting from its weight and streamlining. Early models
could be outdived with ease by enemy fighters, but the problems was cured
when the dive flaps removed its speed restriction. The P-38 was also
reliable and sturdy, and on long escort missions it was less fatiguing to
fly than other types. It silhouette was easily recognized by the enemy,
but this also meant that it was less fired at by bomber crews than the
other allied fighters. The twin engines added safety, but at first they
were unreliable --- other Allison-powered fighters suffered from similar
problems.

In general, the P-38 could fight enemy single-engined fighters with
succes, provided that appropiate tactics were used: usually diving
attacks, using the powerful armament to get a quick kill, followed by a
zoom climb to get away. Dogfights were unadvisable, but a late P-38J with
powered ailerons could if required.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 18:09:28 EDT
From:    William Lippert <WL1958A@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject: Re: HIST -- SA purge

On Thu, 6 Oct 1994 13:51:52 GMT-6 Robert T. Moore said:
>Hello, Warren!
>
>At the time, Reinhard Heydrich didn't have a role in this as it came
>earlier than his arrival on the scene. At the time, the SD was not in
>existence and didn't come into existence until around 1935 and
>even then, he had to compete with the Abwehr which he always regarded
>as "a nest of spies".
>
>Hope this helps.
>
>Terry
>
> >
>>         What role, if any, did Heydrich play in the purge?
>>
>> -- Warren Thompson
>> LEBANON VALLEY COLLEGE
>> Annville PA 17003
>>
>> thompson@acad.lvc.edu
>>

I am sorry to say that the above (way above) info is incorrect.  This time
I have even looked it up to make sure I know what I'm talking about!  The
following information is from Heydrich, Hitler's Most Evil Henchman by
Charles Wighton.
   Chapter Five is called, "The First Big Role" and chronicles Heydrich's
activities and role in the Night of the Long Knives.  To begin with,
by the age of thirty, in 1934, he was chief of the SD and effective head
of the Gestapo.  Already many in the inner circles had recognized him as
a powerful and threatening person.  Around June 10, 1934 the SD was made
the sole Intel agency of the Party, by decree of the Fuhrer.  In the weeks
following plans were made by the SS for a possible SA coup.  At a secret
staff meeting at the Prinz Albrechtstrasse, Heydrich, Himmler, and others
sent out orders for a full SS mobilization.  By June 25, Heydrich began
giving out lists to senior SD personel who were to be liquidated and that
they were to search the Reich for additional names to be added.  In the
next few days the lists were expanded to include many non-SA persons.
   To ensure security, Gestapo agents shadowed the senior SD staff members,
at Heydrich's instruction!  The rest is generally well-known.  Hitler gave
the word and the SS ranged across the Reich swiping people left and right.
Heydrich, Himmler, and Goering were cloistered together in Berlin, overseeing
developments.
    After a whole bunch of people (estimates vary) were executed, Hitler
decided that enough was enough.  Heydrich, it is said by some, had wanted
it to continue to eliminate all enemies of the Reich.
   As a result of this purge, the Gestapo, SD, and thus Heydrich rose   e
inestimably in Hitler's favor.

I hope this clears up some this matter concerning the futur Obergruppenfuhrer
and Czech Protector Reinhard Heydrich.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 18:26:09 EDT
From:    William Lippert <WL1958A@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject: Re: HYPO:  The "Big" what-if?

Kendall Miles,

   You bring up some valid scenarios for a possible Reich victory solution.
I will attempt to address them as best I can.  First, as for Donitz's
U-Boat number, even though he believed to his dying day that more U-Boat's
could have won the war, some disagree (I am convinced of this, too).
One of the problems with the Americans in the Battle of the Atlantic was
that they failed to Convoy in the beginning - thanks to King's Anglophobia.
If Donitz was to have significantly increased Allied losses, then surely the
Allies would have responded - with more carrier escort, new sonar, better
air support, etc.  They would not just have let Donitz reign the sea
without reacting more quickly than they did.
   As for the bomber, I believe it was Goering's own stupidity; he did
not believe that a plane that one could "land a car on" would be very
safe.  As for Rommel winning in North Africa, I'd tend to believe that
even if he did so, he would not have been able to successfully repel
the Allied Torch landings.  Remember, he had enough trouble with supply
as it was - what with the Ultra intercepts and the US sinking his
transports.  Even if he could have had a large army, we would have
outsupplied it.  But taking Malta might have made a difference.
The Russia deal was generally screwed up - thanks to Hitler.
You are right in saying that the Germans made many mistakes and that
it is hard to pinpoint one or two specific ones.  But we must not
forget that the Allies had their share of mistakes: Java Sea, Guadalcanal,
Malaysia,and Market-Garden.  Someone said that war is a contest of who
can make the least mistakes.  Makes sense to me.

William Lippert,
The American University

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 18:39:51 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: Motivation Behind the SA Purge

>
> El said:
>
> > Roehm and the top SA men had ambitions to become commissioned officers
> > in the Wehrmacht, a matter of considerable social significance in prewar
> > Germany.  The incumbent officers were anxious to keep "common street
> > brawlers" out of their "gentleman's club".  "Night of the Long Knives"
> > was a way for the Party to reassure the Wehrmacht that it would keep its
> > monopoly of national defense.
>
> Wasn't Roehm a lieutenant (captain?) during the 1st WW? I think that it's
> pretty clear that Night of the Long Knives was more of a consolidation of
> Himmler/Goering/Hitler/s power. Strasser/Roehm/et al weren't following the
> direction they wanted to go, so they were killed.
> David Rising

Roehm was a captain in the storm troops (the specially trained close combat
forces of the Imperial Army) I believe.

The Roehm faction was much more economically and politically leftist and
radical than other elements in the Nazi party.  This was seen as a threat
by both the industrialists and the army.

Roehm wanted to replace the Reichswehr with a political militia based on the
SA.  Needless to say, the generals were unenthusiastic about being replaced
by what they considered an unruly mob of homosexuals, radicals, and street
criminals.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Oct 1994 01:05:54 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <gustin@EVSDS.UIA.AC.BE>
Subject: Re: HYPO: The "Big" what-if?

On Thu, 6 Oct 1994, Kendall Miles wrote:

> Perhaps given Donitz's 300 U-Boats?  Or at least substantially
> more than the 59 he started the war with?  With 150 U-Boats
> at the start of war and a priority on their production, the
> "Happy Time" could have continued, starving Great Britain.

I doubt it. The 'Happy Time' was not ended by numerical inferiority, but
by changes in tactics and technology: convoys, escort carriers,
centimetric radar, HF/DF, code breaking... Sooner or later, the U-boats
would have been chased from the Atlantic, unless the later types of
U-boats had been introduced earlier. On the other hand, if Doenitz had
been given 300 U-boats, the British war effort in 1941-1943 would have
been very seriously curtailed. One could imagine any series of
consequences you want: no support for British troops in the
Mediterranean, Mussolini saves his face in Africa and doesn't attack
Greece; no German intervention in the Balkan; Hitler wins six weeks and
the German army captures Moscow...

> Or (and this is my obsession and probable thesis topic) why
> was the "Uralbomber" strategic bomber not built?  If it had
> been, the Battle of Britain would certainly have been
> different with the expanded Luftwaffe strike radius forcing

Without long-range fighter escort, even heavy bombers would have suffered
heavy losses in the Battle of Britain, on long overflights perhaps even
similar to that of the 8th AF at Schweinfurt and Regensburg. The German
industry did not have to production capacity of the US counterpart, and
such losses would certainly have meant the failure of the offensive.

>    I guess my problem with this topic is that Hitler and the
> Germans made so many mistakes that it's hard to tell which
> were the crucial ones that could have changed the outcome.

Everbody makes mistakes. WWII itself was a mistake; Hitler didn't expect
that Britain would declare war for Poland...

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 20:32:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <jem3@DONUTS0.BELLCORE.COM>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 7 OCT 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
WEDNESDAY, 4 OCTOBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): In the Kurile Islands, a B-24 weatheraborts a
photo run off Matsuwa Island; 4 B-25s bomb a freighter and a barge off
Shimushu Island; 15-17 fighters intercept and the B-25s score 1 victory.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 8 P-47s damage approaches to a
bridge between Myitkyina and Bhamo; 16 P-47s hit the town of Palwesho; 4
others hit small towns S of Bhamo, including Man The and Hantet.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 5 B-25s hit Hsinantien and areas N
of Chefang; 80+ P-40s and P-51s continue to attack targets of opportunity
during armed reconnaissance over areas of China S of the Yangtze River; 20+
fighter-bombers hit buildings, troops, and river shipping in the Paoching
area.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  AIRBORNE OPERATIONS (IX Troop Carrier Command): The 306th Troop Carrier
Squadron, 442d Troop Carrier Group, moves from Weston Zoyland, England to
Peray, France with C-47s.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 664: 5 B-24s and 4 B-17s
drop leaflets in the Low Countries, France and Germany during the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Bombers drop leaflets in the Metz
and Saint-Die, France and Saarburg, Germany areas; fighters support the US
First and Third Armies in W Germany and E France, escort B-26s, and fly armed
reconnaissance in forward areas, attacking rail and military targets. In
Belgium, HQ 365th Fighter Group and the 386th, 387th and 388th Fighter
Squadrons move from Juvincourt, France to Chievres with P-47s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 327 B-17s and B-24s, with
fighter escort, bomb the Munich W, Germany marshalling yard. In Italy, around
400 other heavy bombers, attack the rail line in the Trento-Mezzaselva area
covering 50+ miles (80+ km) of the Brenner route, Aviano Airfield, Avisio
viaduct, and railroad and road bridges at Pinzano al Tagliamento, Pordenone,
Latisana, Casarsa della Delizia, Mezzocorona, Ora, and San Dona di Piave. In
Greece, 39 P-51s strafe Tatoi, Kalamaki, and Eleusis Airfields. Other P-51s
escort Mediterranean Allied Tactical Air Force (MATAF) C-47s and fly
reconnaissance.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, weather restricts medium
bombers to attacks on 2 bridges at Bistagno and Villafranca d'Asti; fighter-
bombers closely support ground forces fighting in the Loiano-Quinzanod'Oglio-
Sassoleone areas, and hit communications N of the battle areas; HQ 47th
Bombardment Group (Light) and the 84th, 85th and 86th Bombardment Squadrons
(Light) move from Follonica to Rosignano Airfield with A-20s; HQ 79th Fighter
Group and the 86th and 87th Fighter Squadrons move from Southern France to
Iesi with P-47s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): B-24s from Saipan Island attack shipping W of
Iwo Jima Island and bomb airfields, the radio station, buildings, and area
targets on Marcus, Pagan, and Iwo Jima Islands. P-47s hit gun positions,
beach defenses, buildings, and the wharf area on Pagan Island. B-24s from the
Marshall Islands bomb the airfield on Moen Island, Truk Atoll.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: On Celebes Island,
B-25s bomb Sidate and Bolaang-oeki. On Halmahera Island, P-40s and B-25s
attack Galela and Kaoe Airfields. B-25s and A-20s on a shipping sweep bomb
town and port area of Amboina on Ambon Island, hit a wharf at Halong on
Celebes Island, and attack shipping and shore targets of opportunity at
various points. In New Guinea, HQ 403d Troop Carrier Group moves from Los
Negros Island, Admiralty Islands to Biak Island; the 13th Troop Carrier
Squadron, 403d Troop Carrier Group, based on Espiritu Santo Island, New
Hebrides Islands, ceases operating from Los Negros Island and begins
operating from Wakde Island with C-47s; the 63d Troop Carrier Squadron, 403d
Troop Carrier Group, based on Biak Island, begins operating from Wakde Island
with C-47s. In the Moluccas Islands, the 35th Fighter Squadron, 8th Fighter
Group, moves from Owi, Schouten Islands to Morotai Island with P-38s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  jem3@cc.bellcore.com  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

07/0034Z OCT

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 18:47:19 -0400
From:    Christopher Morton <cmort@NCOAST.ORG>
Subject: Re: Raid in Poland

>
> I'll have to double check my sources when I get home tonight, but the
> first troops which would later be called "Brandenburgers" were assembled
> in the fall of 1938, under the command of an Army colonel whose name
> escapes me just now.  They were to assigned the responsibility of
> storming the Reichstag and arresting Hitler if the Munich Crisis hadn't
> resolved peacefully.  I'll check my copy of Harold Deutsch's HITLER AND
> HIS GENERALS: THE UNSEEN CRISIS, 1938 for details.

I'd be interested in hearing more about this.

>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 21:44:02 EDT
From:    William Lippert <WL1958A@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject: Re: HIST -- SA purge

On Thu, 6 Oct 1994 13:51:52 GMT-6 Robert T. Moore said:
>Hello, Warren!
>
>At the time, Reinhard Heydrich didn't have a role in this as it came
>earlier than his arrival on the scene. At the time, the SD was not in
>existence and didn't come into existence until around 1935 and
>even then, he had to compete with the Abwehr which he always regarded
>as "a nest of spies".
>
>Hope this helps.
>
>Terry
>
    I addressed the matter of Heydrich's involvement in another message, I
think, but there is one other matter I'd like to address.  Heydrich did
not bear any particular bad will for the Abwehr.  His relationship with it
was strained, but he and the Abwehr chief, Admiral Canaris, were best of
friends.  There was a time, back in 1938 I think, when someone had wanted
to investigate Canaris and his staff.  Heydrich made an immediate stop
to all investigations.
   Their friendship began during Heydrich's navy years.  In fact, Heydrich
was an officer on one of Canaris' boats.  And Canaris taught him all the
ropes of intelligence gathering.  Later, Heydrich and Canaris' wife had
many a string ensemble.  It might be hard to believe, but Heydrich had
a genuine affection for Canaris and so there was never any thought of
doing harm to him.

William Lippert
The American University

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 5 Oct 1994 to 6 Oct 1994
***********************************************

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Status: O

There are 70 messages totalling 2886 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. ITALY IN WW2, MY $ (2)
  2. Switzerland in WWII (4)
  3. TACT:Could they have won ? (7)
  4. TACT:Balkan strategy (3)
  5. Motivation Behind the SA Purge
  6. HYPO:  The "Big" what-if? (3)
  7. Carlson's & Edson's Raiders
  8. Gustav Geraet (3)
  9. TACT:Fuller Part II:Balkan strategy (2)
 10. HYPO: The Big What-if?
 11. Churchill's bad decisions (from Economic Causes of the War) (4)
 12. INF: 50 Years Ago - 08-OCT-1944
 13. POL: Economic Causes of the war (2)
 14. Raid in Poland (2)
 15. WEAP: Ar234C with E381
 16. WEAP:  P38 in ETO
 17. Christie Tanks & the Soviet Union
 18. Motivations behind the SA Purge
 19. INF: Regia Marina, Part 1
 20. HYPO: The "Big" what-if? (4)
 21. German Economics pre-WW2
 22. [TRIV] Re: odd WWII air encounters
 23. Italy in WW2--book titles (3)
 24. Untold Stories f/ABTF, Pt. 3
 25. HIST -- SA purge
 26. POL: War Economies(Re: HYPO: The Big What-if?) (2)
 27. HOME:US:Illinois at War
 28. Invasion of Crete -- Operation Merkur (4)
 29. Churchill's bad decisions (from Economic Causes of the
 30. Untold Stories, Pt. 3 Update (2)
 31. MEDIA: Bombs in Berlin
 32. Conducator's Guard--book titles, etc.
 33. Carlson's Raiders
 34. Arnhem
 35. [INF] USAAF 8 OCT 44
 36. Egypt
 37. BIO:  Wingate
 38. SS in combat

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Oct 1994 01:04:12 EDT
From:    Cassady Craft <CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
Subject: Re: ITALY IN WW2, MY $

What about Wingate and his group?  What a character!  Someone with a love
for the "mavericks" fill us in on this character.  I don't have the sources
anywhere near.

Cassady Craft
Department of Political Science
University of Georgia
e-mail CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
or
CCRAFT@LANL.GOV

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Oct 1994 01:06:22 EDT
From:    Cassady Craft <CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Switzerland in WWII

I just read in Doolittle's auto that some (2) "P-38s landed in Portugal.
One took off under a ruse and the other ins interned." (p. 320).
Anyone have any stories about escapes such as this one?

Cassady Craft
Department of Political Science
University of Georgia
e-mail CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
or
CCRAFT@LANL.GOV

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Oct 1994 01:13:50 EDT
From:    Cassady Craft <CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
Subject: Re: TACT:Could they have won ?

Yes Jim and Robert, DDAy was the hump.  Not only could a tremendous defeat

but such a defeat would have allowed the Russians to finish the war off
before the West could have conducted another invasion--unless they gampbled
with an ad hoc thing.  Anyone know of any contingency plans for either evacuati
onof the beaches or having anohter go at the whole operation if if it failed?
Sorry for the lack a of correction capability, using a new software package.

Cassady Craft
Department of Political Science
University of Georgia
e-mail CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
or
CCRAFT@LANL.GOV

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Oct 1994 01:18:27 EDT
From:    Cassady Craft <CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
Subject: Re: TACT:Balkan strategy

Bob, isn't it fairly well accepted that the failure in Italy began with
Sicily?  Kind of like Monty flunking the Dutch service exam by planning
market garden, the way to skin Italy is through Sardinia and Corsica, thus
giving yourself some strategic surprise about where you are going next.
Once you go into Sicily, you almost must go to the boot.

An excellent source on the Sicilian campaign is _The Battle of Sicily_
by Mitcham and von Stauffenberg.  It has the OB for Sicily that others were
seeking.

Cassady Craft
Department of Political Science
University of Georgia
e-mail CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
or
CCRAFT@LANL.GOV

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 22:46:33 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Motivation Behind the SA Purge

Roehm's homosexuality and appointment of senior aides of similar persuasion
was also part of the rationale for killing him. Probably no more than an
excuse, though, as the name of the game -- then as ever -- was simply a
struggle for power.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 22:47:39 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: HYPO:  The "Big" what-if?

"Safe behind the ditch..."
!!
        ??

--

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 23:59:26 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <ub076@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Switzerland in WWII

An interesting other aspect of this topic is the internment of aircrew
from both sides in neutral Ireland during the Second World War.
        After he spring of 1943, the Irish government begal allowing
interned British and American fliers to quietly leave the camps and
slip back across the border into Ulster. Luftwaffe crews interned in
Ireland stayed that way until after war's end.
        Regards -- Sidney Allinson.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 6 Oct 1994 21:37:10 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <jimadams@UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Carlson's & Edson's Raiders

A delight to see this topic as this was the subject of my BA thesis.

Mrs. Roosevelt, the President's wife, after visiting the Pacific
"sugested prolonged quartine before returning such men to civilian
society."  She said this knowing that her son, James, was one of the
raider leaders.

Much of the Marine Corps command did not favor a seperate raider unit, as
they felt this was already the job of the Marine Corps.  President
Roosevelt, was enthralled with the British Commandos and like his friend
Churchill, liked the unorthodox.

President Roosevelt was also influenced by his son, James, a Captain in
the Marine Corps Reserve.  Captain Roosevelt was influenced by Evans Carlson.

During the 30's, Carlson left the actiive Marine Corps and went to China
to observe the Chinese Communist Eighth Route Army (under Mao Tse-Tung).
He was greatly influenced by their organization and tactics.  They were
successful in hampering the Japanese army.  He later returned to active
Marine duty and applied the lessons of guerrilla warfare, etc. that he
learned from the Chinese army to his raider organization.  Capt (later
Major) James Roosevelt was his executive officer for the 2nd Raider Bn.

At the same time Carlson formed the 2nd Raider Bn, Lt Col Merrit Edson
formed the 1st Raider Bn.  his executive officer was Maj Samuel Griffith,
who later translated *Mao Tse-Tung on Guerrilla Warfare*.  All four of
these officers were believers in unorthodox methods.

Carlson and Edson were both given great lattitude to organize and train
their battalions as they saw fit.

I found WEB Griffin's The Corps descriptions of the raiders to be accurate.

Raider tactics and organization had influence on later Marine Corps, such
as the 13 man rifle squad, divided into 3 fire teams was a product of
Carlson.

"Gung Ho" was a Chinese phrase that Carlson brought back.  It roughly
means "to work together," but actually escribes to a larger or deeper
philisophical meaning of all being equal.

During the filming of the movie "Gung Ho," a story of the Raiders  and
Makin Island raid, Carlson was assigned as an advisor.  He was upset when
he noticed that not all actors were being treated equal, that the "stars"
were given better treatment, etc.  He said this would not be the case
with the raiders that they were portraying and insisted that if they were
going to make a movie about his raiders, then they must act the same
way.  He threatened to cancel the movie and his involvement unless all
the actors received equal treatment.

Some other sources are *Special Marine Corps Units of World War II* by C.
L. Updegraph (1972, Historical Division HQMC).  *Once a Legend. "Red
Mike " Edson  of the Marine Raiders* by J.T. Hoffman (1994 Presidio).


****************************************************************************
Jim Adams                       jimadams@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.edu
USS Arizona Memorial, NPS        (808) 423-7300
1 Arizona Memorial Place
Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Oct 1994 09:08:43 BST
From:    Stephen Baldwin <smb@NETMGRS.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Gustav Geraet

>
>Hello, Tim and others!
>
>I have the info on the Paris Gun, and there is considerable info on
>this weapon. Since it relates to WWI, I can only state that what I
>send would have to be compared with what I have already posted on the
>Gustav.
>
>Terry

I hereby nominate Prof. Terry Moore  to lifelong membership of WWI-L
(alternatively, you could just subcribe, "do your stuff", and
unsubscribe.. :-))

I'm positive this will help

Steve Baldwin
smb@netmgrs.co.uk

PS - what ever happened to the excellent input from USMA, LtCs
Crane/Cannon etc...are they still on the net??

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Oct 1994 10:03:29 +0200
From:    "A.Bouis" <dev24@BOS.WTK.SURESNES.MARBEN.FR>
Subject: TACT:Fuller Part II:Balkan strategy

Second part of Fuller's ideas on the war, this time on the Balkan
strategy.
While I would personally agree with the author's strategic vision (how
not to agree with hindsight ?), like Bob I doubt its practicability (rough terrain). But his arguments are worth quoting...


(Volume III, pages 547-548)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
 (Fuller explains how Stalin manoeuvers Churchill and Roosevelt into
 landing as far away from his objective, Central Europe, as possible and
how Harry Hopkins explains to the President that Russia will be a powerful
nation after the war)

This estimate is reflected in a telegram sent by Mr. Churchill to
Field-Marshall Smuts a few days after the conference ended.
"I think", he said, "that Russia will be the greatest land Power in the
world after this war, which will have rid her of the two military Powers,
Japan and Germany."
These predictions meant that once Germany was crushed, the totalitarian
rule of Stalin over Europe would replace that of Hitler; as far as the
western allies were concerned, the war would lose its political aim, and
in consequence it would be absurd to continue it.
It would appear that this vitally important inference was not discussed
for a moment. Had it been discussed it would have become apparent that in
order to attain their political aim, it was essential for the western
allies not only to destroy Hitlerism, but simultaneously to prevent its
replacement by Stalinism. And if psychological attack is omitted, this
could only be accomplished if they adapted their military operations to
this political end.
In the time at their disposal there was only one course they could have
taken, and that was to accept the front, then about to be established by
General Eisenhower and General Alexander in Italy, as the Second Front,
and to have put "Overlord" into cold storage. Had they done so, then,
when Alexander had been reinforced by the resources earmarked for
"Overlord" - more particularly landing craft - by a series of amphibious
operations up the leg of Italy he rapidly could have compelled
Field-Marshall Kesselring to withdraw beyond the Po, and by a landing in
the Trieste area he could have forced him either to abandon Italy or risk
the loss of his communications. Such an eventuality, which was by no
means impracticable, would win for the western allies the Road to
Vienna, Budapest, and Prague.
In any case the Chiefs of the Combined Staff should have seen that,
instead of striking at the apex of the German salient
Leningrad-Brest-Athens, strategy dictated that, were the means available,
its reduction should be sought by striking at its waist - Lubeck-Trieste.
Because it was more difficult to strike at the former target than the
latter, a second front in the Trieste area was the only practical
operation in the time available to eliminate the rival totalitarian
systems.

(Fuller then explains at length the development of the Teheran conference
and how firmly Stalin then vetoes Churchill's idea of a Balkan or Turkish
venture)

(...and before, page 533 :)
On october 16, Constantin Fotitch, the Yugoslav Minister in Washington,
broached to President Roosevelt the question of an invasion of Europe by
way of the Balkans, and he pointed out that this strategy, "already
suggested by Churchill, would prevent the installation of Soviet puppet
regimes in the Balkans and in Central Europe." The President replied that
the problem would be decided "purely upon its military aspects." Fotitch
observed, "...that it was a costly absurdity to fight a war for purely
military reasons, with no moral or political objectives."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Arnaud

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Oct 1994 12:15:03 +0200
From:    "A.Bouis" <dev24@BOS.WTK.SURESNES.MARBEN.FR>
Subject: HYPO: The Big What-if?

I would tend to agree with William Lippert on much of what he says, particularly on the fact that for each Axis good decision/invention, there would certainly have been an Allied response, just as there were for Rommel's genius, wolfpacks, and Kamikazes.

What I imply here is that WWII was a completely unbalanced production war and none of the early German/Japanese incredible successes enabled them to counterbalance this decisive factor. Neither did any Allied critical mistake, and look at how many there were :
Abandon of Czechoslovakia, the unbelievable collapse of the French Army, the countless British disasters in North Africa, the shattering of Russia's army (the largest in the World, in three months), Pearl Harbor, the incredible loss of shipping in the Atlantic, the mighty disasters in the Far East, the erroneous Italian campaign, failure to trap the Germans in Sicily, Arnhem, non-productive Strategic bombing for years on end, etc.. etc...

All this failed to win Hitler the war. So could one more have changed the conclusion, which was that the world could not live with Hitler ?
One may suspect that had Hitler forced a peace on England in 1940 she would have raised other coalitions, like in the days of Napoleon -which would not have been difficult given the terror Hitler would have laid on Europe -, and in the end have stamped out an overstretched Reich, just as was toppled Napoleon's mighty Empire.

Now I now that I seem to be discounting strategy in favour of  production. I may be very stupid to imply this, so let's say that I only agree with William that in all probability Rommel's conquest of Africa would have been countered by counter-invasion or isolation, as would have the procurement of Doenitz' 300 U-boats.

Arnaud.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Oct 1994 07:21:37 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <AWILD@URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject: Re: TACT:Could they have won ?

Cassady Craft <CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU> said:

>Yes Jim and Robert, DDAy was the hump.  Not only could a tremendous defeat
>but such a defeat would have allowed the Russians to finish the war off
>before the West could have conducted another invasion--unless they gampbled
>with an ad hoc thing. Anyone know of any contingency plans for either evacuati
>onof the beaches or having anohter go at the whole operation if if it failed?

I seem to recall Ike saying something to the effect that there were no plans
for evacuation; this was an operation they were commited to.

-Al

Every program in development at URI expands until it can read mail. ;-)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Oct 1994 07:40:41 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Churchill's bad decisions (from Economic Causes of the War)

On Thu, 6 Oct 1994 10:54:41 -0500 Tim J. Watts said:
>Bob Stewart pointed out that Churchill wanted to invade the Balkans, a
>bad decision.  Joe Barone replied that Anzio was Churchill's idea too.

In all fairness, Anzio was botched by the commanders in the field.  Certainly
it was logical to use Allied air & naval power to end-run Axis lines in
Italy.

>How many bad decisions can you folks come up with that Winnie made?
>One that comes to my mind is send most of the military resources from
>North Africa in early 1941 to Greece; instead of probably taking all of
>North Africa before the Africa Corps could intervene, he made the
>political decision to prop up Greece, who was obviously going to be
>overrun by the Germans.

This is a tough one.  Militarily, the move was a mistake, but the war
was fought on other than military grounds, and in context, Churchill
had to support Greece in some fashion or suffer an even greater moral
and political defeat.  Germany's diversion to Greece wasted 2-6 weeks
from the Russian campaign, so it wasn't a total loss (although Churchill
probably didn't know that would be the ultimate effect of defending
Greece).

ken koester
maint2@ers.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Oct 1994 04:53:45 -0700
From:    John Davis <jbd@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 08-OCT-1944

On 08-OCT-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - An advance by the Canadian II Corps from Hoogerheide to
Korteven is halted by a counter-attack by the German 15th Army. The Canadians
are driven back to their starting point and just barely are able to withstand
the German counter-attack. The US XIX Corps captures Herzogenrat. The 90th
Division is fighting the Germans house to house in Maizieres-les-Metz. The US
XII Corps are advancing along the banks of the river Seille, capturing
Moivron, Arraye-et-Han, Lixieres and Fossieux. A strong German counter-attack
holds up the American advance in the Mariadorf sector.

Eastern Front - Finnish troops retake Kemi at the head of the Gulf of Bothnia.

Greece - Corinth is evacuated by the Germans; which is subsequently occupied
by British troops from Araxos. Troops from the British 9th Commandos reach
Nauplia.

The Homefront
-------------
Wendell Willkie Dies - Windell L. Willkie, 52, Republican presidential
candidate in 1940 has died in New York city from a heart attack.

Congressional Medal Of Honor - Pfc. John W. Dutko from Homer City, Pa., has
been awarded posthumously the Congressional Medal of Honor for his
singlehanded killing of 11 Germans on May 23rd in Italy.

Best Selling Books - "Strange Fruit" by Lillian Smith, "The Robe" By Lloyd C.
Douglas and "The Razor's Edge" by W. Somerset Maugham.

World Series - The Cardinals take the lead in the series by defeating the
Browns 2-0.

Pro Football - Cleveland 19, Chicago Bears 7: Detroit 19, Brooklyn 14; New
York 22, Boston 10; Washington 31, Philadelphia 31.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "Facts On File Yearbook 1944,
Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.netcom.com in directory /pub/jbd and can
be accessed via the WWW by URL: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/jbd/ww2.html. If you
have difficulty accessing the Netcom FTP server, please keep trying because it
stays very busy.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis     jbd@netcom.com
Cary, N.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Oct 1994 07:06:41 -0500
From:    Bill Smith <bismith@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: POL: Economic Causes of the war

1937 was a pivital year for the FDR administration.  It was torn over the
need for international action, all the way to the top.  Advisors have
speculated that FDR's Quarantine speech was not intended as some effort
to divert attention as much as it was one to begin to draw some attention
in the general public to matters overseas.  Some also indicate it was a
reflection of a growing shift within FDR's mind toward foreign affairs,
the start of his own personal shift toward greater interest in
intervention, a move away from isolationism.

Remember there were deep divisions between branches of government (State
vs. Treasury) and even within (Hull vs. his asst. secretaries) over
foreign intervention.

On Wed, 5 Oct 1994, Tim J. Watts wrote:

> Arnaud-
> An interesting post about economics and causes of the war.  One challenge
> to the theory.  He mentions the Sept. 1937 depression in the U.S. and
> the need to divert public attention from this situation "especially as
> the presidential elections were impending".  Presidential elections
> were next held in 1940 - 3 years after the event and hardly impending.
> This makes me doubt his effort to tie the "Quarantine speech" purely
> to the economic conditions.
>
> I am interested in the idea of economics and its role in history.  I
> don't know enough to discount its effects, so I look forward to what
> others have to say.
> Tim J. Watts
> Valparaiso University
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Oct 1994 07:08:51 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Switzerland in WWII

Hello, Cassady!

Just a comment to your interesting post.

> I just read in Doolittle's auto that some (2) "P-38s landed in Portugal.
> One took off under a ruse and the other ins interned." (p. 320).
> Anyone have any stories about escapes such as this one?

    I might add that the pilot of that P-38 that landed in Portugal
under a ruse was Captain Jack Ilfrey, who claims to be the first ace
in a P-38. He lives in New Braunfels, TX and was a member of the 20th
Fighter Group.

    Regarding similar escape stories, what about Franz von Werra's
escape from a Canadian POW camp, making his way through the US,
neutral at the time, into Mexico, where he made contact with the
German embassy, boarded ship there, and finally arrived in Germany
safe and sound. He was restored to flying status but was later shot
down and killed on the Eastern Front.


    There are others.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Oct 1994 07:13:16 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: ITALY IN WW2, MY $

Hello, Cassady!


> What about Wingate and his group?  What a character!  Someone with a love
> for the "mavericks" fill us in on this character.  I don't have the sources
> anywhere near.

    You are absolutely right about Orde Wingate. I have some info on
him that I can post, and a few things come to mind. He loved to eat
raw garlic cloves. His feeling was that they were nature's perfect
food and eating these would ward off any illness and prolong life.
The fact is that noone could stand to stay around him for any length
of time and he was left pretty much alone.

    He was unorthodox, to say the least, but probably the most
colorful and creative character to emerge from WWII. I think he was
killed in action in Burma in 1944.

If you are interested, I can post to you some more info on Mr.
Wingate.

Terry


 >
> Cassady Craft
> Department of Political Science
> University of Georgia
> e-mail CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
> or
> CCRAFT@LANL.GOV
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Oct 1994 07:14:58 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: HYPO:  The "Big" what-if?

Hello, Cassady!

I would like to respond to this but it will take some time. By Monday
or later on today.

Terry
> Ed, see my other posting, or yes to what you said.  I'm really getting at
> the "if Germany takes Moscow, the war is over" vs. "Germany could have never
> defeated Russia, because they were imregnable behind the Urals, and the Brits
> were safe behind the ditch, and the US the arsenal of democracy (communism)"
> argument.  I'm also looking for "key decision" that could have been decisive
> in preventing Germany from winning the war.  Mr Yarborough's answer was very
> cogent, I think.  I would like more details about what the Fuhrer did wrong
> in the summer of 41, etc.  Lots of knowledge on the list that I would learn
> from, and I'm trying to provide a mechanism.  What-if scenarios can be
> excellent teaching tools, just as the "revisionist" works are.
> Thanks in advance to all who partake.
>
> Cassady Craft
> Department of Political Science
> University of Georgia
> e-mail CCRAFT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
> or
> CCRAFT@LANL.GOV
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Oct 1994 07:18:43 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Raid in Poland

Hello, Christopher!

The Army Colonel who set up the Brandenburgers was Colonel von
Hippel.

I hadn't read or heard that they were going to storm the Reichstag
and arrest Hitler if the Munich crisis had resulted in war. My
understanding was that the officers of the General Staff would have
done this, as they had direct access to Hitler at the time. Witzleben
and Halder were the prime movers in this plot.

        Terry
 > >
> > I'll have to double check my sources when I get home tonight, but the
> > first troops which would later be called "Brandenburgers" were assembled
> > in the fall of 1938, under the command of an Army colonel whose name
> > escapes me just now.  They were to assigned the responsibility of
> > storming the Reichstag and arresting Hitler if the Munich Crisis hadn't
> > resolved peacefully.  I'll check my copy of Harold Deutsch's HITLER AND
> > HIS GENERALS: THE UNSEEN CRISIS, 1938 for details.
>
> I'd be interested in hearing more about this.
>
> >
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Oct 1994 07:27:54 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <RTMOORE@PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Ar234C with E381

Hello, Joe!


Here is some info on the Ar 234C.

Power plant: 4 BMW 003 (900 kg, 1980 pounds thrust) turbojets
Crew: 1
Maximum Speed: 874 km/h (534 mph) at 6100 meters (20,000 feet)
Initial Climb Rate: 1090 m (3,570 feet) second
Service ceiling: 11,500 meters (37,700 feet)
Endurance: 85 minutes with 60% thrust
Takeoff distance: 1420 meters (4650 feet)
                  612 meters (2000 feet) with RATO

If you would like more, I can post it.

Thanks, Joe.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Oct 1994 08:36:50 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: WEAP:  P38 in ETO

TO:
John Meierhoffer
jmeierho@mail.nysed.gov

First, the P-38 in the ETO

John,

As I stated in my initial message re: the F-82,  there are more
important aspects to air combat than maneuverability.  Tactics,
aircrew quality, firepower, A/C maintenance etc. all have a
bearing on how well an A/C performs its mission.  It appears that
this is what has affected the perception of the P-38 in the ETO.

I'll start with a quotation from Gen. James Doolittle, from the
March '76 issue of Airpower, where he attributes the P-38s poor
showing in the ETO during '42-'43 to "external factors":

"The P47 and P51 types would probably have fared as poorly under
the rules of that period-but neither type was developed or mass
produced until later.  Pilots with only rudimentary training were
pitted against Luftwaffe pilots long on experience, and the newly
developed Allison, heavily boosted by turbosupercharging, was most
unhappy with the quality of British fuels."

Kenneth Sumney, in the Dec '76 issue of Wings states "In 1942-1943
every U.S. type introduced into the ETO suffered through a
traumatic familiarization and shakedown process.  Because of the
time lost due to mechanical and supply problems, P-38Fs never had
the opportunity to develop and coordinate effective tactics before
entering combat."

At the same time as these inexperienced P-38 pilots were being
thrown into the battle as long range bomber escorts, they were
using the "British" method of extending their operational range...

      Cruise at 1600 RPM, in auto-lean, with a high manifold
pressure.  This reduced fuel consumption to 70 gal/hr.  But, poor
quality British fuel, combined with bitterly cold temperatures at
low altitudes, caused a great many engine and turbocharger
failures through detonation and backfire.

(NOTE:  This is the same technique that Charles Lindberg introduced
to the P-38 units in the Pacific later in the war.  Using American
AvGas, and under milder climates, it was a great success.)

Warren M. Bodie, the author of the Airpower article that quoted Gen.
Doolittle concluded: "Early versions of the P-38-F, G and H models,
held their own in the ETO despite inefficient pilot training and
the application of unsuitable tactics in combat.  Later versions
of the fighter-J-25 and L models..." (which incorporated power
boosted flight controls) "...could outfly the best German
fighters, at altitude or on the deck."

In addition, the application of the "Butterfly" dive flaps on
later P-38s corrected the compressibility problem that caused
pilots to lose flight control in high speed dives.  With the
restrictions on dive speed lifted there wasn't a plane in the
European sky that could dive with the P-38.

However, by this time, P-47s and P-51s were becoming available in
the ETO, and General Kelley was scheming and screaming to get
every P-38 he could into the Pacific.  So the best of the P-38s
didn't have much of a chance to duke it out with the best of the
Luftwaffe.

Even so, the P-38s record in the ETO was 2500 kills against 1750
losses.  Even though the 1.4 to 1 ratio isn't good compared to
those of the Mustang and Thunderbolt, it's still a positive record
against the Luftwaffe.


> pg 110.  Price summarizes the results of trails between a FW 190 A
> and a P-38F:  FW190 was faster that the P-38 up to 23,000 feet.
> FW190 had better climb below 20,000 feet.  FW 190 dives better and
> can out turn the P-38 at higher speeds.  Fw 190 accelerates faster
> in all cases.

  See above RE: dive flaps and power controls


> 'The turbo-superchargers were controlled by an oil regulator and
> at altitude the oil had a tendency to congeal, which caused
> serious problems'.

  See above RE: British fuel

> A further problem with the P-38 was that its
> airframe was not strong and it had a relatively low maximum diving
> speed.

       1.  The P-38 could out dive any fighter in the theater,
unfortunately, at high dive speeds, early P-38s lost aileron
control due to the effects of compressibility (find many Luftwaffe
prop-engined fighters that reached the speeds where
compressibility problems arise?) so that high speed dives were
prohibited.  Later versions incorporated flaps that corrected this
effect, thus lifting the restrictions on dive speed.  This
restriction was never the result of a weak airframe.

      2.  The classic example of the strength of the P-38 airframe
is the fate of A/C 41-2092.  During a strafing run in North
Africa, the A/C collided with a telephone pole.  Resulting damage
included a torn open port side gun bay door, loss of the port side
propeller, and the left outboard wing being pushed back
approximately 20 degrees.  All this at high speed and very low
altitude.  Yet the aircraft completed an RTB and landed normally
without even blowing a tire.


     Now, the F-82.

     Unfortunately, as the F-82 has never been much of an interest of mine, I
haven't a lot of references on it.  Definately none that list the type of
performance specifications you want.

     A couple of them state that the F-82 was surprisingly maneuverable, and
able to hold its own against a single engined fighter opponent, but that doesn't
answer the mail.

     If I come across something better, I'll let you know.


        Steve L. New                     .............................
        Weapon System Manager            .............................
        Battalion Countermine Set        ............ /\ .............
        U.S. Army TACOM AMSTA-IM-FR1D    ............/  \.............
        DSN: 786-5403  FAX: 786-7788     ............    .............
        EMAIL  NEWST@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL   ............    .............

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Oct 1994 08:35:17 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: TACT:Balkan strategy

On Fri, 7 Oct 1994 01:18:27 EDT Cassady Craft said:
>Bob, isn't it fairly well accepted that the failure in Italy began with
>Sicily?  Kind of like Monty flunking the Dutch service exam by planning
>market garden, the way to skin Italy is through Sardinia and Corsica, thus
>giving yourself some strategic surprise about where you are going next.
>Once you go into Sicily, you almost must go to the boot.

That I don't understand at all.  How could you go for Sardinia/Corsica
w/o Sicily for your air support?

ken koester
maint2@ers.bitnet

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Oct 1994 09:57:36 -0400
From:    QUACK <MUSCORJ@HSDWL.UTC.COM>
Subject: Re: TACT:Could they have won ?

I believe that Germany could have won the war if they didn't invade Russia.
The offensive line that Germany had in operation was too large to keep
supplied with men and materiel. The Italians were of no help in the overall
scheme of things so they couldn't be included in the offensive picture. The
same thing hold true for the Japanese.
To large a battle front to maintain many miles from home.
Of course if Hitler had been assasinated in 1937 or 1938....

Ron Musco

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Oct 1994 09:13:22 -0500
From:    Greg Kelley <gregk@STPAUL.LIB.MN.US>
Subject: Re: Christie Tanks & the Soviet Union

FYI.....

the two Christie M-1931 (or T-3) tanks that the Soviet Union obtained
were purchased in late 1930, with approval for evaluation & development
of the Christie series granted by the Revolutionary War Council on 13th
February 1931.

RUSSIAN TANKS, 1900-1970  by John Milsom (1970)
('cause all my Zaloga titles are at home)

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          gregk@stpaul.lib.mn.us

On Thu, 6 Oct 1994, Robert T. Moore wrote:

> Hello, Cassady!
>
> Thanks for the note.
>
> > Terry and others, maybe the professor was referring to the Soviet adaptation
> > of the Christie chasis for their tanks.  Perhaps with the Germans training
> > in Lipetsk, they acquired some of these.  Just a guess, hopefully enough
> > to get someone who knows more to weigh in.
>
>     The Christie chassis was sold or the rights to it were sold to
> the Russians in the 1920's, 1923, I think, because the U.S.
> Government didn't think that the development of such a vehicle would
> be necessary after the end of the war to end all wars, among other
> things.
>
>     The Russians however, did develop and use this chassis for their
> T-34 design, which as we all know, was one of the best tanks to be
> used in WWII.
>
>     Anyway, the US did not build tanks for the Germans, and if they
> were built they were constructed in secret or in Russia.
>
>     Thanks, again, Cassady!
>
>     Terry
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Oct 1994 10:48:53 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <newst@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Re: TACT:Could they have won ?

     > I believe that Germany could have won the war if they didn't invade
     > Russia. The offensive line that Germany had in operation was too
     > large to keep supplied with men and materiel. The Italians were of
     > no help in the overall scheme of things so they couldn't be included
     > in the offensive picture. The same thing hold true for the Japanese.
     > To large a battle front to maintain many miles from home.
     > Of course if Hitler had been assasinated in 1937 or 1938....

     > Ron Musco


     I don't believe that Germany could have avoided war with Russia in the
     long run.

     From the German side, communism the great bogeyman (after the Jews)
     that the NAZI party used as the great external threat to keep the
     minds of the people off of what was happening at home.  Once the Final
     Solution was final, the Germans would have no choice but to move
     against Russia.

     From the Russian side, Stalin had to be aware that war with Germany
     was coming.  He did everything he could to stall it while attempting
     to strengthen his defenses.  The Nazis had made it very clear how they
     felt about communism.

     The NAZI/Communist clash aside, the USSR was an expansionist state,
     insisting on huge buffers between its borders and anyone strong enough
     to cause it harm (like all of eastern Europe).  No way could it have
     accepted German domination of the rest of the continent up to its
     borders.



        Steve L. New                     .............................
        Weapon System Manager            .............................
        Battalion Countermine Set        ............ /\ .............
        U.S. Army TACOM AMSTA-IM-FR1D    ............/  \.............
        DSN: 786-5403  FAX: 786-7788     ............    .............
        EMAIL  NEWST@CC.TACOM.ARMY.MIL   ............    .............

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Oct 1994 11:02:46 -0400
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: Re: Churchill's bad decisions (from Economic Causes of the War)

Ken Koester <MAINT2%ERS.BITNET@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> writes:
> In all fairness, Anzio was botched by the commanders in the field.  Certainly
> it was logical to use Allied air & naval power to end-run Axis lines in
> Italy.

        Operation Shingle (Anzio) should have died on the drawing board
and many of the commanders expected it to.  Because of logistics contraints
(landing craft needed for Overlord, etc.), the plan called for a mere
two divisions to hit the beach.  This was simply insufficient manpower
to exploit any surprise end-run.  The operation could not have been
expanded without cutting into the Overlord operation which the US would
not allow.  It was only because Chirchill would not back down despite
the overwhelming evidence that the operation would not achieve any useful
goals that the operation continued.  Marshall considered Italy a sideshow
and didn't want any more resources invested there.  "Fatal Decision:
Anzio and the Battle for Rome" by Carlo D'este is my primary source.
--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
We will *not* have the element of surprise!  Those Tigers will
hear our Detroit engines long before we enter the town.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Oct 1994 11:04:00 EST
From:    "Eliot K. Friedman" <ekfriedm@AEC1.APGEA.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Motivations behind the SA Purge

I said:

>> Roehm and the top SA men had ambitions to become commissioned officers
>> in the Wehrmacht, a matter of considerable social significance in prewar
>> Germany.  The incumbent officers were anxious to keep "common street
>> brawlers" out of their "gentleman's club".  "Night of the Long Knives"
>> was a way for the Party to reassure the Wehrmacht that it would keep its
>> monopoly of national defense.
>
>David Rising replied:
>
>Wasn't Roehm a lieutenant (captain?) during the 1st WW? I think that it's
>pretty clear that Night of the Long Knives was more of a consolidation of
>Himmler/Goering/Hitler/s power. Strasser/Roehm/et al weren't following the
>direction they wanted to go, so they were killed.

    More importantly, was Roehm an officer PRIOR TO WWI?  I won't argue
    Roehm's WWI service record, but he was far from "Regular Army".

    I doubt that in WWII, the US West Point grads had much in common with
    the "90 day wonders", commissioned out of necessity, not choice.  I'm
    sure that a similar situation existed in the WWI German Army, but to a
    much greater degree, since German society was far more class conscious.
    Roehm's WWI experience, like Hitler's, if anything must have widened
    the gulf between himself and the generals.

    I maintain that, personal party rivalries aside, Roehm's presence in
    any high post prevented the Party from gaining indispensible allies
    outside the Party, namely Army commanders and the big industrialists.
    Gaining absolute control of the Party wouldn't be worth much if a
    hostile Army decided to throw the Party out of power the next day.
    This was always a possibility, at least through the 30's, had any of
    Hitler's foreign adventures not turned out so well.

    El

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Oct 1994 11:15:44 -0400
From:    Barone <m1b@SSD.RAY.COM>
Subject: INF: Regia Marina, Part 1

[All the messages I received concerning my Regia Marina posts were positive.
So here is the first installment.  - Joe]

        The Italian navy came into existence shortly after the unification
of the country in 1861 with the amalgamation of the small navies of the
various states.  This young navy inherited ancient traditions but integration
was long and difficult.  The defeat at Lissa, in 1866, at the hands of the
Austrians was a serious blow to the Italians.  However, the Italo-Turkish
war of 1911 convinced the navy that it finally achieved real operational
experience.  This view was reinforced in World War I.  Despite these
successes, though, Italian naval operations had been limited to the use
of light forces and submarines in a closed sea, the Adriatic.  This did
not provide the navy with experience in high-seas operations against a
strong, well equipped adversary.  In 1940, the Regia Marina, though
equipped with modern ships, suffered grave deficiencies in technology,
organization, logistics, doctrine, and most importantly, real high-seas
experience.

        When Italy declared war on the Allies on June 10, 1940, the Italian
Navy had only two battleships combat ready, the "Conte di Cavour" and "Giulio
Cesare".  These ships comprised the 5th Division of the 1st Naval Squadron.
Both were World War I vintage ships which had been decommissioned in the
late 1920s only to be modernized and reactivated in the mid-1930s.  Despite
this modernization, though, both ships still were deficient in armor and
armament.  The more modern ships, "Littorio" and "Vittorio Veneto", making up
the 9th Division, had only been handed over by the shipyards and were still
undergoing training that would take another three months before they were
operational.  "Caio Duilio" and "Andrea Doria" were still in the yards, being
fitted out and undergoing trials and training.  "Duilio" would be ready at
the end of the summer, "Doria" by the end of the fall.  The other "Littorio"
class ships, "Roma" and "Impero", were still under construction.

        That the battleship force was so unprepared for war is convincing
evidence that the Italian declaration of war was prompted by political, not
military, considerations.  Another affect of the sudden declaration was that
large numbers of Italian merchant ships were unable to return home, being
captured or interned, significantly reducing available shipping.  Mussolini
believed that France would soon fall to the advancing Germans and the
capitulation of Great Britain would follow shortly thereafter.  Despite
France's collapse, however, Britain stood firm and rejected a negotiated
peace.  As a result, Italy became embroiled in a long and difficult conflict
with her armed forces, industry, and economic base totally unprepared.

        Allied strategy depended on the French Fleet playing a large role
in holding the Mediterranean.  France's withdrawal from the war meant that
there was now near parity between Italian and British naval forces in the
area.  The Italian Navy included two battleships (with four more nearly
ready), seven heavy and twelve light cruisers, about one hundred and twenty
destroyers and torpedo boats and over one hundred submarines.  These forces
were numerically superior to the British Mediterranean Fleet, based in
Alexandria, and Force H, a hastily constructed replacement for the French
Fleet, based in Gibraltar.  Together, these two British forces would have
been an imposing force but they rarely operated together because of
operational demands placed on each.

        The Italians were handicapped by the lack of aircraft carriers.
This was to have a significant and negative effect in numerous engagements
and on the course of the war.  British tactics were based on the use of
carrier-based aircraft in reconnaissance and strike roles.  All Italian
aircraft were controlled by the Regia Aeronautica which had resisted all
attempts to create a naval air arm and the building of carriers.  It was
Mussolini's opinion that the Italian peninsula served as a large carrier.
He failed to perceive the need for specially trained naval aviators or the
requirement for carrier aircraft to protect the fleet.  The need was finally
acknowledged in 1941 but the first Italian carrier, "Aquila", though ready
at the time of the armistice, never entered service.

        A brief period of relative quiet followed the first weeks after
Italy's entrance into the war, as the two navies assessed the situation.
However, the need for Italy to supply its forces in Libya and for Britain
to reinforce its forces in Egypt and Malta led to an early delineation
of naval strategy in the Mediterranean -- the interdiction of enemy
convoys and protection of friendly ones.  This became the objective of
numerous operations.

        The first major fleet action in the Mediterranean occurred on
July 9, 1940, in the waters of Point Stilo, off Calabria.  An Italian
squadron comprising the battleships "Cesare", "Cavour", 14 cruisers,
and numerous destroyers, came into contact with the British Mediterranean
Fleet.  This included the battleships "Warspite", "Malaya", and "Royal
Sovereign", aircraft carrier "Eagle", five light cruisers, and 14
destroyers.  The two squadrons were at sea escorting convoys; the Italians
were escorting one to Benghazi, and the British were escorting two -- one
to Malta, and one evacuating civilians from the island.

        Neither side fought the action with great zeal.  Contact between
the two forces occurred in a position favorable for the Italians, near
the Italian coast and in range of land-based bombers.

        Initially, there was a brief and inconsequential exchange of fire
between the cruiser forces.  At 3:53 PM, "Cesare" and "Cavour", each armed
with 10 12.6 inch guns, opened fire at a range of 26,400 meters against
"Warspite", which was in the van of the British battleships.  "Warspite"
returned fired, as did the other battleships.  At 3:59 PM, "Cesare" was
hit by a 15-inch shell from "Warspite" at extreme range which went through
the after smoke stack, exploding on the armored deck and causing a fire.
Four of her eight boiler rooms were filled with smoke, forcing them to
shut down, which reduced her speed to 18 knots.  Admiral Campioni, the
Italian commander, decided to break contact.  He ordered a destroyer
attack and continued firing with his aft guns, to cover his withdrawal.
Within half an hour, "Cesare" had worked back up to nearly 24 knots and
sailed to Messina for repairs while the rest of the fleet made for Taranto.

        The Battle of Point Stilo (known by the British as the Action off
Calabria) had no tactical winners or losers and neither side incurred
significant losses.  However, it demonstrated the inferiority of the
rebuilt Italian battleships compared to the heavier, better armed British
ships.  More importantly, it revealed the lack of Italian naval-air force
cooperation.  Though close to Italy, requested aircraft arrived late, failed
to cause any damage to the British and even mistakenly attacked the Italian
ships.  This contrasted markedly with the British use of carrier aircraft
from "Eagle" which were present throughout the engagement, harrying the
Italians.  These were used effectively though they did not achieve results
on this occasion.  A psychological ascendancy was gained by the British due
to this action, which they never relinquished, even in their desperate days
of 1942.

        This encounter might have had a different outcome, however.  The
9th Division, made up of "Veneto" and "Littorio", were in the final stages
of training and were nearly operational.  Admiral Bergamini, commander of
the 9th, requested permission to sail and add his ships' 15-inch guns to
the battle, but his request was denied.
--
Joe Barone
m1b@ssd.ray.com
To a New Yorker like you, a hero is some kind of weird
sandwich, not some nut who takes on three Tigers!

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Oct 1994 10:34:18 -0500
From:    Greg Kelley <gregk@STPAUL.LIB.MN.US>
Subject: Re: HYPO: The "Big" what-if?

Out of curiosity, how many "what-ifs" are allowed in this discussion?
I mean, if you're in a sense changing Hitler's personality to allow for
some really BIG policy changes, then how about his opponents?  For
example, if Reynaud had cashiered Gamelin (not just replaced, but really
shook up the lethargic French General Staff) and pursued the fighting
withdrawal to North Africa concept.  Paris would not have been declared
an open city, the Foreign Legion's Tours & Lyon bases could've formed the
nucleus of yet more rear guards, the French Fleet stays in Allied hands,
and so forth and so on.  Sure, Panzer columns would've ended up on the
Riviera, but not as quickly as a lot of people suppose.  France had
millions of troops under arms (yes, Gamelin said he had no available
MOBILE reserves, but sooner or later the Germans would've encountered the
assorted regional regiments in central France, and I find it hard to
believe they would've ALL given up, especially with a determined leader)

France had nearly half a million troops and HUNDREDS of aircraft in North
Africa in the summer of 1940.  If Hitler was reluctant to cross the "big
ditch" of the English Channel, how quick would he have crossed the Med?
Oh, yes, via Spain.  Anyone else read GERMANY'S MILITARY STRATEGY IN SPAIN?
How quick would've Franco entered the war--any quicker than he did in
history?  Remember, now, France is still with the Allies, and Morocco
filled with troops. (but just think-- our 80cm Gustav might really be
used for shelling Gibralter, as it had been designed to do...)

Hey, this could be fun.. I haven't got to the point where the Italian 5th
Army in Tripolitania gets to beat itself silly against the Mareth Line in
Tunisia before all the spahis in the world ride out of the southern
Sahara to take Tripoli  (see Aglion's FIGHTING FRANCE about the thousands
of bedouin cavalry being assembled from dissident Libyans & Fezzans down
towards Fort Lamy & Ghadames).

To be continued.....

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          gregk@stpaul.lib.mn.us

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Oct 1994 11:10:03 -0700
From:    John Holtz <holtz@EAGLE.SANGAMON.EDU>
Subject: Re: German Economics pre-WW2

>
> >Tim, Bob, very interesting answers. All arguments seem to be very valid, except
> >that I'd like to comment, Bob,
> >that Hitler's loans from German banks do not result in foreign debt and
> therefor
> >e do not constitute a point of contradiction with the author's discourse.
>
> Arnaud,
>
>         The point I was trying to make was that Fuller's loan-capitalism vs
> barter system dichotomy seems to be of his own invention. Germany under
> Hitler was as capitalist as the US under Roosevelt. The institution of a
> barter system in trade had more to do with Germany's problem with the
> outflow of wealth than any philosohic opposition to capitalism. Other
> countries took steps to improve their trade balances. Roosevelt tried
> purchasing gold to deflate the dollar and make exports more attractive and
> imports less so.

The most succinct, yet detailed, discussion I have read on this topic
viz. Nazi Germany is in:

_Germany and the Second World War_(1990) edited by the
Militargeschichtliches Forschungsamt.  Oxford Press.  This discussion is
in volume 1.

jwh

--
John W. Holtz, Asst. Professor       INTERNET: holtz@eagle.sangamon.edu
Sangamon State University Library       PHONE: (217) 786-6633
Springfield, IL  62794-9243               FAX: (217) 786-6208

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Oct 1994 12:11:28 -0500
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: [TRIV] Re: odd WWII air encounters

        The Germans also delivered at least one complete Me 109 (by sub,
I think),    I can't recall offhand if it was E,F, or G version, to the
Japanese.  This aircraft and a captured P-40 were tested against the
prototype Ki-61 "Hien" in 1942.

Regards

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Oct 1994 12:20:32 EDT
From:    William Lippert <WL1958A@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject: Re: TACT:Could they have won ?

On Fri, 7 Oct 1994 09:57:36 -0400 QUACK said:
>I believe that Germany could have won the war if they didn't invade Russia.
>The offensive line that Germany had in operation was too large to keep
>supplied with men and materiel. The Italians were of no help in the overall
>scheme of things so they couldn't be included in the offensive picture. The
>same thing hold true for the Japanese.
>To large a battle front to maintain many miles from home.
>Of course if Hitler had been assasinated in 1937 or 1938....
>
>Ron Musco

   First, you are then assuming that Stalin would not have pre-empted an
attack on Germany say, by 1943.  I don't think I would have called the
cooperation between the USSR and Germany anything but an interest motivated
matter - completely lacking in sincerity.  Still, I would admit that the
outcome would have been effected in a rather large way.

William Lippert
The American University

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Oct 1994 12:40:47 EDT
From:    Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Churchill's bad decisions (from Economic Causes of the War)

On Fri, 7 Oct 1994 11:02:46 -0400 Barone said:
>Because of logistics contraints
>(landing craft needed for Overlord, etc.), the plan called for a mere
>two divisions to hit the beach.  This was simply insufficient manpower
>to exploit any surprise end-run.  The operation could not have been
>expanded without cutting into the Overlord operation which the US would
>not allow.

That's a rationale--from the times--I'd like to see investigated.  It
doesn't seem reasonable that it would take 6 months to reposition men &
materiel from Italy to England.  Yet it was always given as an excuse for
limiting operations in the Med.  The logical conclusion, given how the
campaign turned out, would be not to invade Italy in the first place, since
w/o operations of this type the Allies were doomed from the start to slog
their way up the Appenines.

For that matter, why were landing craft in such short supply?  I mean,
it's not like building a bloody aircraft carrier, is it?  If you can
turn out a liberty ship in 9 days, you sure should have been able to
*flood* the waters with landing craft.  Or is this meant to include
landing ships as well?  Still, one wonders if perhaps the production
campaign went astray here.

ken koester
maint2@ers.bitnet
>hear our Detroit engines long before we enter the town.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Oct 1994 13:11:23 -0500
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Italy in WW2--book titles

        Conducator's Guard?? Terror Tanks??  Come on, now, Greg...
quit teasing me here.  I've seen replies to several other list participants
detailing your bibliographic sources.  How about letting me share the fun and
opening up about where you're reading all this stuff about Rumania???  Like,
you could start with a reference to where you came up with anything about the
Conducator's Guard, Royal Guards, etc??  Are these, and the obviously detailed
description you've read about the fighting at Odessa, all in "Forgotten Axis?"
(my copy hasn't arrived yet).  If not, I'd really appreciate it if you could
take the time to let me in on some of your (English-language please--I'll
struggle through Italian but my Rumanian is merda) sources since you seem to
know a lot more about this than anyone else I've run into so far (and I'd like
to join that elite company of WW2 Eastern Europe cogniscenti).  If for some
reason you don't want to help me out here I'll stop bugging you (two messages
to the list is my limit) but I'd appreciate any info you can offer.

Regards

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Oct 1994 13:16:35 -0500
From:    Mike Yaklich <MFY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Italy in WW2--book titles

        I'm away from my sources here, but I recall reading somewhere a
breakdown which referred to 20 L3's on Rodos, 8 on Leros, and the rest of the
"Commando Truppo Egeo"'s L3 battalion on Crete.  I thought the source (not
exactly unimpeachable-- he makes a lot of mistakes on the actual campaign by
identifying entire divisions based on the appearance of sub-units of battalion
size) was Papagos' "The Battle Of Greece 1940-41," but that wouldn't account
for the presence of the Italians on Crete (at least not yet).  I'll try to
track down my source on this one (I use Riccio a lot, too)-- hopefully you
can also give me some help (see previous message re:Rumania)

Regards

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Oct 1994 12:21:45 -0700
From:    John Holtz <holtz@EAGLE.SANGAMON.EDU>
Subject: Re: TACT:Could they have won ?

>      I don't believe that Germany could have avoided war with Russia in the
>      long run.
>
>      From the German side, communism the great bogeyman (after the Jews)
>      that the NAZI party used as the great external threat to keep the
>      minds of the people off of what was happening at home.  Once the Final
>      Solution was final, the Germans would have no choice but to move
>      against Russia.
>
>      From the Russian side, Stalin had to be aware that war with Germany
>      was coming.  He did everything he could to stall it while attempting
>      to strengthen his defenses.  The Nazis had made it very clear how they
>      felt about communism.
>
>      The NAZI/Communist clash aside, the USSR was an expansionist state,
>      insisting on huge buffers between its borders and anyone strong enough
>      to cause it harm (like all of eastern Europe).  No way could it have
>      accepted German domination of the rest of the continent up to its
>      borders.
>
>
>
>         Steve L. New                     .............................

All throughout Hitler's own writings, and all through almost every
decent analysis of Hitler's foreign policy (the latest I've read is in
"Germany and the Second World War, Vol. 1" (1990) Oxford Univ. Press) is
the need to acquire land to the east and that the true foe of National
Socialism is Communism.  These are two of the fundamental pillars of
Hitler's "Weltanschauung."  Neither could be satisfied within Germany's
existing borders nor without an active campaign, eventually, against the
Soviet Union.  And to clear the way for the conclusive eastern campaign,
security in the west must be assured.  The linkage is plain in Hitler's
writing, domestic politics, and foreign policy.

jwh

--
John W. Holtz, Asst. Professor       INTERNET: holtz@eagle.sangamon.edu
Sangamon State University Library       PHONE: (217) 786-6633
Springfield, IL  62794-9243               FAX: (217) 786-6208

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 7 Oct 1994 13:34:59 EDT
From:    Doug McCabe <mccabe@OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Untold Stories f/ABTF, Pt. 3

                   Ohio University Electronic Communication


   Date:  07-Oct-1994 01:34pm EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"WWII-L@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject:  Untold Stories f/ABTF, Pt. 3


    [These stories require a bit of a preface.  Sorry this is so long,
    folks, but you'll see why as you read on.  These stories are a
    combination of three exhibit panels: "Crossing the Waal," "Taking the
    Bridge," and "Saving the Bridge: The Controversy Continues."
    Basically, there was a great fight for the Nijmegen bridges (the last
    two before Arnhem's 'bridge too far').  The MARKET 82nd AB Div. was to
    have taken the railroad and road bridges before the GARDEN British
    armoured division arrived.  Due to the facts that the 82nd's missions
    were more than one division should have had and there were delays
    getting into Nijmegen, alowing the Germans to beef up their defenses,
    by the 20th of September the bridges were still in German hands and the
    British armour had arrived.  Attempts at direct assult were driven back
    mainly because of the geography: tanks vs. AT amongst buildings is a
    slow process.  (Nijmegen is on the south side of the Waal River.)  At
    any rate, one or both of the bridges _had_ to be taken and quickly if
    the operation was to reach its final goal and the British 1st AB Div
    was to be saved.  It was at this point the 82nd's Gen. Gavin came up
    with the idea of an assult crossing to grab the bridges from the
    _north_ bank.  This assult _should_ have gone down as one of the
    greatest feats in American military history but never has.  Imagine: 17
    canvas-sided assult boats in the first wave (a lot few in later waves),
    done in broad daylight before coordinated resistance from small arms up
    to 20mm or larger calibers, down an embankment and across a 200 yard
    wide river and across a wide open flood plain of 400 yards and down the
    flanks of the dike road full of Germans past a fort to the railroad
    bridge about 1/4 mile away and finally perhaps another 1/4 mile to the
    road bridge.  The 504th Parachute Infantry Regiment did it (with a
    small number of supporting people) _and_ reached the bridges before the
    Brits came over from the other side.]

    CROSSING THE WAAL: CAPTURING THE FAR SHORE

         "General Browning [British], who was commanding the operation
    said, 'We have got to cross that river and get to the other end of the
    bridge to keep the enemy from blowing it up.  Where can we get troops
    that can get across and still fight that horde?  I don't have any!'
         "Colonel Tucker [commander of the 504th PIR] said, 'By God, my men
    can do it!'  I knew that was us."
                                       - S/Sgt. Nicolli, 82nd AB Div.

         "At first, when we were briefed for the assult crossing, we took
    it as a joke.  We couldn't believe anyone could be serious about it.
    We were simply told that we were going to get the Nijmegen Bridge.  I
    wasn't sure how they were going to get it, but I can remember that it
    was flattering, and at the same time a little fantastic, that we
    engineers were going to lead this flotilla across.  We usually followed
    people around, not lead them.  Suddenly it came across that this was
    _not_ a joke - that we _were_ going to paddle those flimsy canvas boats
    across, and at that moment, I would have liked to have been _any_place_
    in_the_world except there.
         All I can remember thinking was, 'I'm not dead yet - let's get
    going!'  I got in and shouted, 'Everybody paddle like Hell!'  We all
    tried to crouch down, but I took one look at the sides of the boat and
    didn't think that crouching was going to do much good.  I remember
    feeling that my helmet at that point seemed like a beanie.
         We beached on a gentle slope and started inland.  About 150 yards
    up from the beach we came across two German pillboxes.  We hit them
    from the side.  We threw in three of four grenades and then went on."
                        - 2nd Lt. John Holabird, US 307th AB Engineers

         "I looked up and saw that the engineer on the tiller had been
    knocked off the back of the boat.  I heaved myself up and grabbed a
    paddle and used it as a steering oar until we were practically across
    the water.  We were being heavily fired upon and we were paddling fast.
         There was a great deal of overhead fire coming from the [British]
    tanks on our side of the river.  The smoke that had been laid down was
    practically gone - big, hugh, gaping holes in it.  The British tanks
    which were standing almost track to track on the dike, were doing a
    great job.
         A few yards from shore, I dropped off the back and gave the boat a
    big shove which drove us onto the shore.  There were only three of us
    moving.  The boat was half-filled with water.  Most of it was blood."
                                  - Capt. Carl Kappel, US 82nd AB Div.

         "We climbed over the wounded and dead in the bottom of the boats
    and up to our knees in water waded to shore.  For about 30 seconds I
    lay behind the little embankment just beyond the small beach getting my
    breath and then we got up and moved out across the open field into the
    fire.  In many ways this was the most remarkable scene of the whole
    operation.  All along the shore line our troops were now deployed as
    skirmishers.  They ran into murderous fire from the embankment 800
    yards away, but they continued to move forward in a single line
    hundreds of yards wide.  They cursed and yelled at each other, the
    non-coms and officers giving orders and the men firing from the hip
    their BAR's, machine guns, and rifles.  Many times I have seen troops
    who are driven to a feaver pitch - troops who for a brief interval of
    combat are rendered crazy by rage and the 