Subject: WWII-L Digest - 2 Oct 1994 to 3 Oct 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 00:00:29 -0400

There are 63 messages totalling 1952 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. TACT:Could they have
  2. Seebees and SAS
  3. battle of Leyte -Reply
  4. BULL: was TACT:Could they have... (2)
  5. INF: 50 Years Ago - 04-OCT-1944
  6. 79th INF Division History (3)
  7. P-61 (2)
  8. TAC: ?'Could still loose the war?
  9. WEAP: F-82 (7)
 10. Egypt (3)
 11. TACT:COULD THEY HA
 12. TAC: ?'COULD STILL
 13. SPEC or BULL
 14. Italy in WW2, my $0.02--part II (4)
 15. WEAP:aircraft comparisons (2)
 16. WEAP: F-82 -Reply
 17. mea culpa
 18. ADMIN: What-Ifs (2)
 19. [INF] USAAF 2 OCT 44 (2)
 20. Invasion of Crete -- Operation Merkur (2)
 21. TACT:Could they have won ? (2)
 22. German Military Vehicles
 23. Switzerland in WWII (2)
 24. WEAP: Eric Brown
 25. American Air Museum
 26. ADMIN: Introduction to WWII-L
 27. POL:Hiroshima (2)
 28. Hungarians and Rumanians on the Eastern Front (2)
 29. WEAPON: Amphibious Landings and Tanks
 30. INF: U.S. plants in enemy countries
 31. Operation Truckin' (2)
 32. Lt. Greenwood-Red Ball Express Company B. Supply Battalion????
 33. The Italians (2)
 34. Italy in WW2, my $0.02--part III (2)
 35. [INF] USAAF 4 OCT 44
 36. TACT:Battle of the Bulge (was Re: TACT:Could they have won ?
 37. 12th ss panzer division germany

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 02:31:00 UTC
From:    "Edward S. Miller" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TACT:Could they have

George Bauer writes:

  > Please spare me the "what if" and "if only" discussions.

  WWII was fifty years ago.  The history has long been known.  The memoirs
are written.  Few facts remain undisclosed.  "What ifs" stimulate us to
assess those facts in a challenging way.  This board would be dry indeed if
members did not speculate.
  Furthermore, many straightforward subjects appear to be of interest
because of implied "might have beens", e.g., Czech army, early jet planes,
Plan Yellow.

Edward S. Miller  [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Oct 1994 22:36:13 PDT
From:    Sidney Allinson <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Seebees and SAS

Terry...
        You say, "The SAS still exists as far as I know".
!!!
Surely you jest.
        The Special Air Service (22) Regiment not only "still exists",
it is probably the most highly-trained unit in the British Army.
        Though it's official policy is to keep a low profile, the SAS
is frequently mentioned in the international media. The regiment'smain
role these days is in counter-terrorism, but it is a regular army unit,
and served with distinction in the Gulf War and the Falklands War.
        Regards -- Sidney Allinson.

--

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 1 Oct 1994 00:57:46 -0400
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: battle of Leyte -Reply

Wed, 21 Sep 94 11:15:58 EDT

If I remember correctly, the destroyer Johnston went in first and fired its
torpedoes.  Received 3 14" hits and pulled back.  When a destroyer attack was
ordered the destroyers Hoel, Heerman, and Johnston (no torpedoes but to
provide fire support) and destroyer escort Samuel B. Roberts answered the
call.
Johnston was sunk, its commEvans was posthumously awarded the MOH, Hoel
was sunk, and Samuel B. Roberts sunk.  Heerman was severely damaged. I
believe one of the gunners mates on Roberts, Carr, was awarded the Navy
Cross (post) for attempting to hand ram the 7th round into a 5" whose hydrolic
evacuator was damaged, when it exploded killing him and many of the gun
crew.

As stated, truly heroic.  Tbove was gleaned from the Navy's ships historys.

Hope this helps.
Rob Rush

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

A recent book by Thomas J. Cutler covers these events in detail, some 28
pages of text.  It is published by Harper Collins and is entitlted _The Battle of
Leyte Gulf, 23-26 October 1944.

John Meierhoffer                [email-masked]
Albany New York         518 486 2390 (work)   283 4761 (home)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 07:48:54 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: BULL: was TACT:Could they have...

Please note the subject heading,... as someone has already suggested,
it would identify the factual/questions from the what-ifs.

BULL does seem degrading, and no one likes that... so how about SPEC: for
Speculation, so others will know whether or not to comit system resources
to it. If a subj heading already exists for SPEC (Special, for instance),
then how about 2AM as a next best... or TIME_FOR_COFFEE... or WHERES_LOU ;-)

-Al

.signature not found! Reformat hard drive? [Yn]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 04:59:32 -0700
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 04-OCT-1944

On 04-OCT-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The Canadian 2nd Division liberates the Merxerem-Eeckeren
sector, north of Antwerp. The German 6th Armoured Division launches a
counter-attack north of Aachen, where the US XIX Corps has breached the
Seigfried Line; they are repulsed by the Americans however.

Eastern Front - In the Negotin area, in Yugoslavia, the Russian 57th Army
routs the German Serbia Group. The Russian 46th Army captures Pancevo near
Belgrade.

Peleliu - The 7th Marines continue to attack the Japanese positions on
Mount Umurbrogol, in torrential rains. As the day ends the Marines have
suffered such heavy losses that they are ordered to be immediately
relieved.

Burma - In the British XXXIII Corps sector, the 5th East African Division
captures Yazagyo.

The Homefront
-------------
Alfred E. Smith Dies - Alfred E. Smith, 70, Governor of New York for four
terms and presidential candidate of the Democratic Party in 1928, has died
in New York from heart failure.

Flying Accidents - The War Department has disclosed that 11,000 members of
the Army Air Forces have been killed in 5,600 fatal air accidents in the
continental US since Pearl Harbor.

Medical Care Program Proposed - The American Public Health Asociation,
meeting in New York, has adopted the outline of a program for medical care
designed "to make available to the entire population all essential
preventive and diagnostic medical services." The program proposes a
national plan to provide all types of medical aid for all parts of the
country. They state that "these services should be adequately and securely
financed through social insurance supplemented by general taxation."

World Series - The St. Louis Browns have won the first game of the series
by defeating the St. Louis Cardinals 2-1.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "Facts On File Yearbook 1944,
Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 07:37:20 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 79th INF Division History

Hello, A.J.!

I posted a history and organization of this unit to Mr. Emery Ford. I
had asked if anyone on the list would like to see this and Mr. Ford
was the only one to respond. Thus, I sent it as a private post.

You can find a history of this unit in Shelby Stanton's "The Order of
Battle of the U.S. Army in World War II".

Hope this helps.

Terry

> I would be much obliged to anyone who knows their history or reference
> sources.
>
> A.J. Herd
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 07:38:37 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: P-61

Hello, Cassady!

This aircraft officially left USAAF service in 1945. However there
were versions of this aircraft used in the Korean War.

Terry
> Thanks Emmanuel.  I have one more question.  It seems that the P-61 was an
> excellent a/c for its role, but I haven't heard if it remained in service
> after the war.  When did it leave service in the USAAF/USAF?  Did it operate
> as an intruder also, i.e. bomb load.  I seem to remember from glancing
> through Angelucci that it did.  Thanks--oh yeah, what took its place?
>
> Cassady Craft
> Department of Political Science
> University of Georgia
> e-mail [email-masked]
> or
> [email-masked]
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 08:45:30 -0400
From:    Emery Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 79th INF Division History

Hello all,

On Mon, 03 Oct 94, Terry Moore wrote:

>I posted a history and organization of this unit to Mr. Emery Ford. I
>had asked if anyone on the list would like to see this and Mr. Ford
>was the only one to respond. Thus, I sent it as a private post.
>
>You can find a history of this unit in Shelby Stanton's "The Order of
>Battle of the U.S. Army in World War II".

>> I would be much obliged to anyone who knows their history or reference
>> sources.
>>
>> A.J. Herd

I would be glad to forward all the info Terry has sent me to anyone
interested.  It would be no problem at all. It's good stuff.

Thanks again, Terry!

Emery

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 07:46:06 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TAC: ?'Could still loose the war?

Hello, Emmanuel!

Thanks for the note and hope you are well.

> Thanks. The BBC is transmitting a series on personalities of this century
> (titled 'Reputations') and this one was a largely (but not exclusively)
> British view on the controversy between Eisenhower and Montgomery.
> Hence...

    You are very welcome. You might read or consult the book "My
Three Years with Eisenhower" by Ike's naval aide. I can't think of
his name at this time. He goes into detail on this.

    Thanks again, Emmanuel.

    Terry

 > Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 14:44:46 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: P-61

On Fri, 30 Sep 1994, Cassady Craft wrote:

> after the war.  When did it leave service in the USAAF/USAF?  Did it operate
> as an intruder also, i.e. bomb load.  I seem to remember from glancing
> through Angelucci that it did.  Thanks--oh yeah, what took its place?

Yes, the P-61 operated as an intruder. Luftwaffe activity was rapidly
diminishing, so this was logical. I don't know for other units, but the
422nd squadron was transferred from IX Air Defence Command to IX Tactical
Air Command on 7 October 1944. The earlier P-61s had two wing pylons; from
the P-61B-10 onwards they had four, each for 726kg.

The 422nd got its first four-pylon P-61 in March 1945. Apart from downing
43 enemy aircraft, the 422nd dropped 147 tons of bombs; but the unit
continued to fly the A-20 alongside the P-61, and most of the bombs were
dropped by A-20s. (The 422nd flew 1576 sorties.) Night intruder missions
usually sought targets of opportunity, but at times special targets were
determined for the P-61s. After the Battle of the Bulge, the 422nd was
awarded a Distinguished Unit Citation for its support, mainly to the 101th
Airborne.

After WWII, the P-61 was rapidly considered obsolete. Replacement by the
F-82 'Twin Mustang' (The F, G and H models were nighfighters) began in
September 1948. The last P-61s in service were the P-61Cs of 68th and
339th NFS, of the 347th FG, in the Pacific; these were retired in 1950.
The career of the P-61 in Europe ended earlier; the 422nd squadron was
disbanded on 30 September 1945. The F-82 itself was considered an interim
type, and replaced as soon as possible (meaning: after much delay) by the
F-89 Scorpion and F-94 (another interim type) jet nighfighters.

I should add that apart from the 422nd and 425th squadron in West Europe,
the 414th operated the P-61 with the 12th AF in Italy. 415, 416 and 417
were also created under the 12th AF, but too late for combat.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 08:53:02 EST
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: WEAP: F-82

        Will someone be so kind as to refresh my memory?  Did the F-82
make into combat or at least service in WW 2?
TIA,
*****************************************************
Brad Coon                     Windows: the operating
[email-masked]          system for people who
[email-masked]    think even a Macintosh
                              is too fast.

Remember, only YOU can prevent political correctness!
******************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 10:37:55 -0400
From:    "Mr. Scott Hannon" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 79th INF Division History

You may be able to abtain a copy of the divisional history, "The
Cross of Lorraine", from Battery Press for around $55. They still
had a few copies a couple months ago.

The division landed in Normandy around a week after D-Day. They
then took part in the lib of Cherbourg penninsula. Then the drive
across France (with XX Corps?). By October '44, they were adjacent
to the US 7th Army area in Lorraine/Alsace. They helped create the
hole in the German lines that allowed the French 2nd Arm Div to
break thru and make their dash to Strasbourg in Nov. By late 1944 the
79ID was located in the corner where the Rhine and Lauter rivers meet
along the German/French border. They defended northern Alsace thru
Jan '45 against the German "Nordwind" offensive. In March, they took
part in the drive into Germany and ended the war in southern Germany.

Other books that might be of interest:

"[US Army] WW2 Order of Battle" by Shelby Stanton. A brief history
of every US Army non-air-corps formation in existance in WW2. The
history seems to come mainly from the "Chronology" volume in the
US Army in WW2 green series (or they used the same sources).

"When the Odds Were Even" the Vosges campaign Oct '44 - Jan '45, by
Keith Bronn. A recent book from Presideo Press, maybe $25. Nice.

"Operation Nordwind" by Charles Whiting. Popular history type of
book, but covers the main fighting OK. A few years old...out of print?

"From Riviera to the Rhine", the latest and last volume in the
US Army in WW2 "green" series. Available from the US GPO for
around $30. Covers US 7th Army ops Aug '44 - Feb 45.

Scott.
Scott Hannon, Mon Oct 3 1994 ([email-masked])

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 12:12:08 -0230
From:    Stephen Cloutier <[email-masked]>
Subject: Egypt

Hi,

  I've been reading the list with great interest over the past couple of
months.  I was wondering if anyone on the list can help me.  I am a Ph.D.
student in the English department at the Memorial University of
Newfoundland.  My dissertation is on a group of British writers who were
in Cairo during the Second World War.  Since I am attempting to put them
in a historical context, I need a couple of good books on the war in the
desert.  I was wondering if members of this list could recommend a few.

Steve Cloutier
Memorial University
St. John's, Newfoundland

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 10:49:00 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: F-82

     >Will someone be so kind as to refresh my memory?  Did the F-82
     >make into combat or at least service in WW 2? TIA,
     >***************************************************** Brad Coon
     >              Windows: the operating [email-masked]
     >system for people who [email-masked]    think even a
     >Macintosh
     >is too fast.

     >Remember, only YOU can prevent political correctness!
     >******************************************************

     No,

     The F-82 was not in service at the tome of the Japanese surrender.  It
     did not see combat until Korea.

        Steve L. New                     .............................
        Weapon System Manager            .............................
        Battalion Countermine Set        ............ /\ .............
        U.S. Army TACOM AMSTA-IM-FR1D    ............/  \.............
        DSN: 786-5403  FAX: 786-7788     ............    .............
        EMAIL  [email-masked]   ............    .............

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 10:59:30 EDT
From:    Brian Nicklas <[email-masked]>
Subject: BULL: was TACT:Could they have...

"Spec" or "Bull" sounds like a great idea to me.
I am really starting to use the intros, they really save time...

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 12:36:38 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TACT:COULD THEY HA

I agree with you, Ed. However, many submitting speculations come with no
knowledge or source material, and what is submitted is pure speculation. I
appreciate learning something new or being able to provide facts/information
when possible. But some of the stuff we get on the net is a waste of time and
space and don't do the submitters much credit. How is Stamford in these
beautiful fall days? Regards, Ben

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 12:50:51 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TAC: ?'COULD STILL

Captain Harry Butcher was Gen Eisenhower's naval aide. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 10:31:02 -0600
From:    Dave Neil <[email-masked]>
Subject: SPEC or BULL

How about HYPO for hypothetical?

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 12:43:29 -0500
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Italy in WW2, my $0.02--part II

Run-of-the-mill Blackshirt (MVSN) units had a spotty at best combat record
and cannot be considered very good overall.  However, there were exceptions.
Chief among these, in my mind, was the Giovanni Fascisti ("Young Fascists")
Division that fought in North Africa in 1942-43.  Organized from the cream of
the Fascist youth organizations, and provided with better mobility than the
average Italian division (also supported by some truck-mounted artillery),
the Giovanni Fascisti fought very well and held their positions against
repeated British assaults at both the Mareth Line and the Wadi Akarit
position in April 1943.  They also held out for two days along with the
German 90th Light during the final days of the Axis resistance in Africa
(May 10-12 1943), when all other forces around them were crumbling.  This
was however a special unit in terms of both manpower and equipment, unlike
the normal Blackshirt "Legions."  I'd agree that these were much more like
the SA than the Waffen SS.

I'd be interested in hearing why the Rumanians would be considered as pretty
good troops.  I've read a bit about them and it seems Rumania's military
situation was similar to Italy's in a lot of ways-- lack of equipment,
training, sufficient numbers of competent officers-- compunded by the
country's small-power status.  Sure, Rumanian forces had their moments--
they might have done some of their most successful fighting against the
Germans in 1944 (but then they had the enormous advantage of surprise
resulting from their rapid switching of sides, plus they were fighting
in their own country which by happy coincidence lay astride the German
supply lines in that region).  On the other hand, for every Rumanian triumph,
however small, I could probably name a larger-scale defeat.  They got
bogged down outside Odessa for two months at the start of the campaign in
Russia, scattered by a Soviet counteroffensive in the Nogay steppe in
October '41, repeatedly retreated without orders in the Crimea over that
winter, and of course got shattered at Stalingrad in Nov '42.  Not a great
combat record so far...
Anyway, just my 3.5 cents worth.

Regards

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 12:44:22 -0500
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP:aircraft comparisons

Also for Yugoslavia in April '41 (Me-109s and Hurricanes on the same side)

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 11:54:17 -0600
From:    Chip Merton <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: F-82

Is the F-82 you are talking about the same a\c as the P-80 Shooting Star,
after they changed the designators from 'P' to 'F', or is it an off-shoot?

If I recall correctly (resources not at hand) the P-80 was flown in Italy
and the UK in early '45 but did not see any action. Can anyone confirm this?

Thanks--Chip     "[email-masked]"

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 13:05:39 EDT
From:    William Lippert <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Egypt

To Steve Cloutier
    I have read many books about Rommel.  One of them is "The Trail of the
Fox" by David Irving.  Another is "Knights Cross"; the author escapes me
but it was published within the last six months.  There should be a lot of
books, though, on the Afrika Corps and the British 8th Army.  Good luck

William Lippert
The American University

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 13:44:45 -0400
From:    John Meierhoffer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: F-82 -Reply

Is the F-82 you are talking about the same a\c as the P-80 Shooting Star, after they changed the
designators from 'P' to 'F', or is it an off-shoot?

Thanks--Chip     "[email-masked]"

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

The North American F-82 was an off shoot of the P-51.  It consisted of two late model P-51's
fuselages (with bubble hood) linked at the wings and the horizontal stablizer.

Machine guns were carried in the wing section between the two aircraft.  This was also where the
radar unit was placed in the nightfighter version

 I believe pilots could be carried in both cockpits.

John Meierhoffer                                [email-masked]
Albany NY

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 13:48:40 -0500
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: mea culpa

        Ouch--shot down by my own sources!!  Thanks to Emmanuel for
pointing out (correctly) that the Fiat CR32 fighter did indeed mount
the 12.7-mm mg in Spain, contrary to my earlier assertions.  I obviously
misremembered what I read in Gunston's book.  That's the great thing about this
list-- you can always learn something (even something you think you already
know).  I'd say more but my foot's in my mouth...

Regards

Mike Yaklich

PS:  Thanks a lot to Steve New for posting that info on the Ca 310.
That was exactly what I needed!

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 14:02:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: F-82

 >Is the F-82 you are talking about the same a\c as the P-80 Shooting Star,
 >after they changed the designators from 'P' to 'F', or is it an off-shoot?

Negative.  The P/F-82 was the Twin Mustang, i.e., 2 Mustang
fuselages with a center spar.  Different versions of the P/F-82
were delivered as fighter-bombers and night fighters.

 >If I recall correctly (resources not at hand) the P-80 was flown in Italy
 >and the UK in early '45 but did not see any action. Can anyone confirm this?
 >
 >Thanks--Chip     "[email-masked]"

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 14:16:53 -0400
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: ADMIN: What-Ifs

        My own views of what-if scenarios is that they are appropriate
if they start with some key decision going a different way or somehow
have their roots in reality.  ("What if the Czechs had resisted?",
"Would the US have invaded Japan without the A-bombs?", etc.) Intelligent
discourse can still be maintained despite the very nature of the question
that it is unanswerable.  They're mind candy and many of us have an
intellectual sweet tooth that we indulge on occasion.  However, flights
of fancy should be avoided ("What if time-travelers had provided the
Germans with B-52s?" or "What if aliens had landed at Stalingrad?",
etc.)  I will add a WHAT-IF flag so topics can be marked as such for
the benefit of those who don't care for them.  So basically, I like
them so they can stay!
--
Joe Barone, WWII-L listowner
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 13:32:29 -0500
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [INF] USAAF 2 OCT 44

Jack McKillop noted B-17 bombing a FORD (!) motor vehicle plant in Cologne
Germany on this date.  Does anyone know if there were many American-owned
manufacturing plants in Europe, contributing to the Nazi war effort?  I
always thought American-owned plants in foreign countries were a
phenomenon of the post-war era.
Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 14:35:56 -0400
From:    Emery Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: Invasion of Crete -- Operation Merkur

Hello,

Does anyone know of some good source material for a day-to-day account
of the German assault on Crete?  This seems like an incredibly bold
undertaking and a fascinating study.

Emery

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 13:52:07 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TACT:Could they have won ?

Hello, William!

>    Hitler and the Germans knew that the end would come later if they
> stayed on the defensive.  An offensive operation, if successful, would
> have had the effect of raising German morale, shaking Allied confidence,
> and perhaps permitting a political settlement with the West.  No doubt
> that these were very unlikely, but they were better than conceding to
> inevitable defeat.

    However, you must admit that the German failure in the Ardennes
accelerated their defeat, as it was.

Terry

 > William Lippert
> The American University

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 13:55:51 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: German Military Vehicles

Hello, Steve!

Bill Huber named some museums that would be worth a trip. I would
personally recommend to you the Wehrtechnisches Museum in Koblenz,
Germany that is 4 stories tall and contains many very interesting
artifacts as well as AFV's.

    The Mayor of Koblenz, Mr. Willi Hoerter, personally arranged the
construction and layout of this museum.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 14:10:35 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Switzerland in WWII

Hello, Pascal!

Switzerland was neutral, but it did play in role in several areas,
mainly covert.

    Bern was the HQ of Allen Dulles, the head of OSS in Europe in
WWII.
    Switzerland was also the site of many Allied aircraft that chose
to land there rather than continue the war. Some deliberately, some
due to navigational errors.

    Switzerland was also involved in such an episode in which a copy
of the their latest night fighter, an Me-110, armed with Schraege
Music, Lichtenstein radar, forward-firing machine guns, which landed
in Zurich by mistake. The pilot Wilhelm Johnen, who is still alive
today, got lost and was forced to land because of lack of fuel. The
airplane and crew were interned. This caused such a furor in Berlin
that Goering surreptitiously offered the Swiss 6 Me-109 aircraft,
either in outright exchange for the plane, or at least as a sop to
the Swiss to destroy it, if it could not be returned. In any event,
the Swiss consented to allow this aircraft to be destroyed in the
presence of German witnesses. This took place at Dubendorff field
outside of Zurich in 1944. The crew was sent back home by train in
civilian clothes and were returned to flight status. The Swiss were
still given the 6 Me-109's.

    Hope this has been of interest.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 15:16:18 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: F-82

How was the P-82 managed? What happened, for example when the right pilot
wanted to go left, and the left pilot wanted to go right? Was one pilot
designated the lead pilot? And what if he got disabled in flight?

Maybe I'm confused, but I cannot for the life of me figure out why such
a craft was designed outside of a barroom...

(I know I show my ignorance, there HAD to be a reason!)

                                                                Steve

Go Right (Limbaugh), Go Left (Clinton), Sink'em entirely (Perot) ;-)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - [email-masked] |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 14:25:06 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Eric Brown

Hello, Tim!

> Does anyone know if American-built carrier fighters tangled with Me-109's
> during British airstrikes against the Tirpitz in Norway?

    No. It was strictly a  British  operation. You may be thinking of
the chase and pursuit of the Bismarck, the sister ship of the
Tirpitz. The Bismarck was sighted and located by a patroling
Catalina, at the time the US was still neutral in May 1941. This info
was sent to the Brits which resulted in the sinking of the ship.

        Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 14:26:44 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Egypt

Hello, Steve!

I have several I can recommend to you. I will send you a list of
books I have in my library that deal with the desert war.

    More later.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 14:36:18 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Italy in WW2, my $0.02--part II

Hello, Greg!

> Continuing in the vein of Italy's miltary prowess, both real & imagined,
> does anyone out there really, honestly & truly consider the MSVN
> Blackshirt Legions to be comparable to the Waffen-SS?

    Absolutely not. The pre-war Waffen-SS units had no equal within
Europe. These people were chosen for their racial purity and physical
characteristics. They were given the very best equipment and
training. The Italians had nothing to compare with this.

 The impression I've
> gathered would class them closer to armed SA units--more a political
> militia that, to be sure, were considered "elites", but more due to
> political status & indoctrination rather than anything resembling special
> forces training or weapons.

    That is true.

 Probably more dedicated or inpsired than
> regular troops, which when you're fighting in southern Russia or Eastern
> Africa might make quite a difference.

    Perhaps, but, as you know the Italians and Spanish did not do
well in Russia.

> Hey, don't mind me.  I'm still trying to find anyone to agree with my
> contention that the Rumanians were good troops.

    Not even the Rumanians I have spoken with have a high opinion of
their own troops in WWII. They say that the Rumanian soldier in WWII
was a "coward, and would run at the first opportunity."

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 15:31:30 -0400
From:    "Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs." <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: What-Ifs

Joe Barrone, WWII-L listowner writes:

>        My own views of what-if scenarios is that they are appropriate
>if they start with some key decision going a different way or somehow
>have their roots in reality.  ("What if the Czechs had resisted?",
>"Would the US have invaded Japan without the A-bombs?", etc.) Intelligent
>discourse can still be maintained despite the very nature of the question
>that it is unanswerable.  They're mind candy and many of us have an
>intellectual sweet tooth that we indulge on occasion.  However, flights
>of fancy should be avoided ("What if time-travelers had provided the
>Germans with B-52s?" or "What if aliens had landed at Stalingrad?",
>etc.)  I will add a WHAT-IF flag so topics can be marked as such for
>the benefit of those who don't care for them.  So basically, I like
>them so they can stay!

You mean the Germans didn't get the V weapons from aliens? If so, then
the ones who landed at Stalingrad that created the rough winter died for
naught!

Sorry, Joe, I couldn't resist;-)

a *WHAT* took it??!?!                                   :-)Steve

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven E. Pudlo  - [email-masked] |"Life may be a drag BUT
STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 15:32:33 EDT
From:    William Lippert <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TACT:Could they have won ?

On Mon, 3 Oct 1994 13:52:07 GMT-6 Robert T. Moore said:
>    However, you must admit that the German failure in the Ardennes
>accelerated their defeat, as it was.
>
>Terry

Terry,
   The Ardennes Offensive probably did hasten their defeat.  But, without
the benefit of hindsight, what would you do if you were Hitler, faced with
a superior enemy on both sides?  I'm sorry to those people who don't like
if questions, but they are essential for a full understanding of why certain
decisions were made and events came to pass.  Rommel, when faced with the
British in North Africa driving him almost out of Italy, counterattacked.
This is what made him the Desert Fox - striking when least expected.
      All together, I found Hitler's offensive very admirable.  To begin
with, he clearly caught the Allies by surprise.  Second, that although it
was ultimately to fail, it did restore morale to the German troops for
a while.  And third, I might question whether or not it speeded up the
end of the Reich.  The troops and equipment would probably have been
encircled, destroyed by the air, or just chewed up on the Eastern Front.
It really might have only made the difference of a month or two.

William Lippert
The American University

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 14:54:10 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Invasion of Crete -- Operation Merkur

Hello, Emery!

I have some sources on this at home and will post them to you
tomorrow.

More later.

It has also been my privelege to have corresponded with the man who,
along with Generaloberst Kurt Student, planned that operation, General
der Fallschirmtruppen Alfred Schlemm, as well as German vets who were
there.

More tomorrow.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 15:52:48 -0400
From:    "J.M.Ruel" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: American Air Museum

The American Air Museum will be located at RAF Duxford England. This is the
sight of the British Air Museum. It has progressed to the plans being accepted
and now funding is stumbling block. RAF Duxford was the site for some of the
filming of Memphis Belle. It is a nice museum with an active airfield. They
show both British and American aircraft along with other military equipment.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 15:46:44 -0400
From:    Barone <[email-masked]>
Subject: ADMIN: Introduction to WWII-L

Revision: 3 October 1994
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[I've added a new flag and ftp sites of archives.  Let me know if I've missed
any sites.  Thanks.  - Joe]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Welcome to WWII-L, a list dedicated to the discussion of the greatest
cataclysm of the Twentieth century (and, hopefully, the last.)  My name is
Joe Barone and I am the listowner.  I can be reached at [email-masked].

        WWII-L will be self-moderated.  This means that each of you will
always try to remember that there is a human being on the other end of the
wire, and the "Golden Rule" is rule number one!

        Our subject is HUGE and not everyone will be interested in everything
that moves over the list.  To ease YOUR burden of sorting the items you wish
to read, I offer the following "flags".  They will go FIRST on the Subject:
line.  (This section will be enforced when traffic gets heavy, otherwise
members may use their discretion on the matter.)

EDU   For discussion of aspects of teaching about the war.
SCI   For discussion of science and technology; may overlap with WEAP.
WEAP  For talk of weapons, usage of weapons, and "My favorite weapon."
POL   Political discussions, such as the effects of the Yalta Conference.
TAC   Tactical and Strategic discussions, "Island hopping vs. Single axis"
REF   References, review, where-to-buy, etc.
INF   Tables of Organization, raw data, chronologies, etc.
DOC   Reproductions of documents, Declarations of War, Speeches, Treaties, etc.
GEN   "Let's find a category for this."
TRV   For you trivia buffs. Try to stump everyone.
VET   For reunions, VA announcements, Legislation affecting veterans.
HOME  For discussions of events on the "Homefront".  To help distinguish
      WHICH homefront we're talking about, use the following format:
      HOME:US for the U.S.A.,
      HOME:GER for Germany, and so forth.
NOST  For nostalgia items, such as trips to battle sites, historical
      recreations, museum information, where to buy badges and hats, etc.
ADMIN For listowner use, to post introduction and related material.
      Responses to these articles are welcome, but only listowner
      should originate an "ADMIN" article.
WANT  For trading, suggestion on stores worth visting, etc.  Please offer to
      send more information via e-mail rather than posting an entire inventory.
MEDIA To review and report TV and other media "events".
NEWS  For reproductions of newspaper, magazine, and other articles from the
      period under discussion.  Present day news items should be post under
      "MEDIA".
ARC   For discussion of on-line resources and materials, such as those avail-
      able via ftp or gopher.  Discussion of the WWII-OLA (On-Line Archives
      should be posted under this flag.)
TROUBLE  Error messages from a site or address. Last chance to contact me
      before I'm forced to delete you! Anyone who knows the member in question
      is urged to contact them and have the problem corrected.
| WHAT-IF  For discussing scenarios of what may have happened if things had
|       been just a wee bit different.  Situations must have their roots in
|       history and reality rather than flights of fancy.

        Some items will overlap, of course, but the main thrust of the item
should be clear.  Try not to ask so many questions in a single post that the
flags become inoperative.  Several short posts are preferable to one long one,
and are easier to answer and quote.  You should change the flag in the subject
line if the thread takes a new direction.  If you reply to a posting which
didn't have a flag, please insert the proper flag.  (This can help categorize
the subject for people who have to download the mail via slow modem, one of
the main reasons for having the flags at all.)

        Threads have been known to mutate so that the Subject: line no longer
gives any indication of the content of the message.  I ask that you check
the Subject: line when replying to a message and change it to something
more appropriate if this is the case.

        Since messages may arrive at sites out of order, it's always a good
idea to quote portions of a previous message that you are responding to.
This does not mean that the entire message with headers should be included,
but those lines that are relevant.  It helps if proper attribution (who
said the quoted material) is given.  Also, try to avoid quoting large
tracts of text and simply adding an "I agree!" line with no additional
information.  A good rule of thumb is not to have more quoted text than
new material.  Of course, content is always more important than style so
these suggestions may not apply.

        Abbreviations are another subject that needs attention.  While many
of us will be comfortable with the most arcane and obscure acronyms and
abbreviations, many of the readers of this list are here to learn more about
the war and will have trouble decyphering your articles if they are packed
with "LAH", "CinCUS", "StuG III", etc.  PLEASE expand these terms at least
once in your post.

        Similarly, since this list is primarily in English, could we please
translate the "foreign" terms?  A long discussion on "Kido Butai" or
"Wacht-am-Rhine" without an explantion of the terms isn't polite if we
exclude part of the list because they have no clue as to the meaning of
the terms.  The converse should also be remembered: English is not the
primary language of many members of the list.  Usenet short-hand should
also be expanded once to avoid redundant traffic explaining what such
abbreviations as BTW mean ("by the way").

        Now we come to the REALLY hard part.

        Some subjects have been beaten to death or evoke strong emotional
responses.  However, I realize that they'll come up from time to time.
If you feel that the following topics must be addressed, ensure that your
wording is precise; consider the responses that it might evoke; and use
the topics flag.  It is not my duty to censor any pertinent topic from this
list, but these topics should be handled carefully.  Failure to do so may
result in "flame wars" which will *not* be tolerated on this list.  The
mailing list suffered through one flame war pertaining to the second topic
below.  It nearly killed the list so I am loath to see if the list can
tolerate another.  Also, in regards to the Holocaust, there is another
mailing-list, HOLOCAUS-L, devoted to the topic so readers should subscribe
to that list for a more thorough discussion of that topic.  The current
list of topics are:

        1. The Holocaust.
        2. Internment of Japanese-Americans in the US.

        Also, while conspiracy theories were all the rage during in the 1970s
and 1980s, they're rather passe now.  Their novelty is gone and there is little
or no evidence to support them.  Occam's razor applies here: don't attribute
to malice the results of ignorance.  Accordingly, the following topics are
discouraged:

        1. Did Roosevelt know about the coming attack on Pearl Harbor and
           intentionally do nothing in order to drag the US into the war?
        2. Did Churchill allow the bombing of Conventry to occur in order
           to protect the secret of Ultra?

        While on the topic of touchy topics and flame wars, there are a
few individuals in the world who delight in posting the most assinine
assertions for the sole purpose of enraging the more serious members of a
group.  These people seem to derive pleasure seeing how much traffic they
can generate.  A subset of this group may actually believe the preposterous
things that they are claiming.  Regardless of such an individual's
motivation, though, if a message angers you, I ask that you not respond
immediately, if at all.  First, you would probably be playing right into
their hands and, secondly, nearly every other sensible person will have
the same response as your own.  I try to stay on top of this list in order
to prevent such flame wars, but propogation delays make it impossible for
me to react instantaneously.  Hopefully, I'll have the wisdom to discern
"flamebait" from an actual desire to debate an unpopular theory.

        One last item, STATE YOUR REFERENCES!  You're in tough company here.
| Members include historians, published authors, and two veterans (which I
| consider our most prized asset).  Some of the folks in this list are VERY
sharp, and you'll end up with egg on your face if you haven't done your
homework.

        Normally the listserv will want you to subscribe from your own account
rather than having me add you to the list.  This allows the software to confirm
mailing routes as I don't always get your full address in the mail.

        Contact me if listserv gives you any problems and we'll seek a solution.

SUBSCRIPTION INFOMATION:

ALL Messages are to go to:

[email-masked] (internet)
listserv@ubvm                (bitnet)

Send the following commands  in the body of the message.

To SUBSCRIBE:
subscribe wwii-l (your name)

To UNSUBSCRIBE:
unsubscribe wwii-l

To turn mail off for a period without unsubscribing:
set wwii-l nomail

To turn mail back on when ready:
set wwii-l mail

To Digest (have all postings sent in one mailing per day):
set wwii-l digest

To restore normal mail (undigest the list.)
set wwii-l mail

To confirm that your posting has been sent to the list:
set wwii-l ack

To get a copy of your posting sent to you:
set wwii-l repro

(Ack will send you a note saying "your file has been succesfully distributed,
and repro will send a copy back to you of your posting..

To retrieve logfiles for WWII-L send mail to [email-masked] or
                                             listserv@ubvm (for bitnet)
with this message in the body:
get wwii-l log9407c

This file will contain all the postings sent to the list in the third week
of July, 1994.

The files are held for two months and broken down by seven day periods (which
usually don't coincide with the calendar "week".  Thus you might see this
kind of entry

WWII-L LOG9407A  (for 01-07 July, 1994)
WWII-L LOG9407B  (for 08-14 July, 1994)
WWII-L LOG9407C  (for 15-21 July, 1994)

You can also get the files by ftp if you have access.  FTP into
ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu and cd to WWII-L.  The files are in ascii format
and the machine is case sensitive.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's a tip on getting older messages from the listserver:

        One of the features of the listserver is the database search.  This
allows the user to search for any subject and print either an index of the
"hits" or the articles themselves.  For instance, if you mail the command
sequence below to "[email-masked]" or "[email-masked]"
it will send you an index of all articles in the archive that deal with
weapons (the WEAP: tag).  (The usefulness of the subject flags discussed
earlier should be apparent now.)

        One member of the list used the old example that accompanied this
introduction and notified me that it didn't work.  Below is the correct
sequence of commands to search the database.  I've tried it so I can
vouch for its utility.

//      JOB Echo=No
Database Search DD=Rules
//Rules DD *
search WEAP: in WWII-L
index
/*

        If you change the word "index" to "print" it will return you a
copy of the articles themselves.  You can start with the listserv command,
"info database" and receive a complete set of instructions for using the
database. These instructions are not trivial and are a bit voluminous
but they are thorough and will help you get what you want.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|
|       Several members of the list provide daily updates of events that
| occurred 50 years ago.  Much of this information is archived.  Below are
| the addresses for retrieving archives of this information and much more.
|
| COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES is archived at two sites:
|
|   1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
|   2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in
|       pub/history/military/airforce/ wwii_chronology
|
| 50 YEARS AGO TODAY is archived at:
|
|   1. ftp.netcom.com, in directory /pub/jbd
|
| 50 YEARS AGO OF NAVAL ACTIVITIES and other historical goodies:
|
|   1. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu in directory /pub/history and all subdirectories
|
|       To access these archives, connect to the desired system, enter
| "anonymous" when prompted for login ID, then enter your Internet mail
| address when prompted for password.
|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If I haven't suffciently confused you, send me e-mail and I'll finish
the job. :-)  I can be reached at the following address:

Joe Barone, WWII-L Listowner
[email-masked]
W: (401) 842-4054
Always wit' da negative waves, Moriarty!  Always wit' da negative waves!

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 15:43:32 EDT
From:    William Lippert <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: POL:Hiroshima

On Thu, 29 Sep 1994 09:09:26 EDT Ken Koester said:
>On Wed, 28 Sep 1994 15:08:53 GMT-6 Robert T. Moore said:
>>    Also, consider the experimental nature of the bomb. There was no
>>consensus at the time that it would work. In the case of the Nagasaki
>>bomb, they were more certain, but not with the first one.
>
>?  Wasn't the U-235 bomb used first?  I don't think they could have had
>many doubts on that one at all; it was about as simple a device as can
>be imagined:  just a gun firing uranium bullets at a uranium target.
>The plutonium device was far more complicated and delicate an affair.
>
>ken koester
>[email-masked]

    The making of a successful atomic weapon is no easy task.  One has to
have precise wiring lengths so that the explosive around the U-235 is
detonated at the same moment to achieve uniform implosion.  These weapons
were made in an era without the aid of digital measuring devices, remember.
And then, of course, the explosive itself had to be uniformly distributed.
It had to be the right quantity, lest it explode rather than implode (I
think).  In sum, the triggering device was not easy to make.

William Lippert
The American University

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 15:04:19 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: F-82

> How was the P-82 managed? What happened, for example when the right pilot
> wanted to go left, and the left pilot wanted to go right? Was one pilot
> designated the lead pilot? And what if he got disabled in flight?
>
> Maybe I'm confused, but I cannot for the life of me figure out why such
> a craft was designed outside of a barroom...
>
> (I know I show my ignorance, there HAD to be a reason!)

Easy.  :-)  Actually, there was only one pilot.  The second cabin normally
housed the radar/weapons officer.

Basically, the P-82 is a standard two-seat tandem fighter/bomber.  The only
real difference is that the first step between the two seats is fairly
steep.

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
[email-masked]                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 13:07:49 -0800
From:    Ron Skinner <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: POL:Hiroshima

Terry writes:

>   Hiroshima and Nagasaki were targeted for two reasons. 1) The
>Americans were wanting to use this device on cities that had
>previously been more or less untouched by the bombing. 2) At the
>time, the weather over the cities were favorable to obtaining visual
>results from the bomb, in other words, minimal cloud cover.

I agree. Here's a brief excerpt from NO HIGH GROUND by Knebel and Bailey:

   Hiroshima had been spared the most frightful results of the war.
   While almost every other urban area in the island kingdom had
   been seared by the incendiary mixtures dropped by the B-29s, this
   ancient river-mouth city had felt the concussion of only twelve enemy
   missiles in three and one half years of war. Two small bombs were
   dropped by a flight of US Navy raiders in March, 1945, and six weeks
   later a single B-29, unable to reach its prime target, let go a string
   of ten 500-pounders. In all, about a dozen people were killed.

David Nishimura writes:

> On the other side, it seems that the Hiroshima memorial museum is now
> finally displaying material that traces the course of Japanese aggression
> that led to the bombing, instead of depicting it as an unprovoked
> martyrdom.  Apparently a number of residents were quite shocked to see
> Pacific War-era photos of the city and its railyards full of soldiers and
> ordnance, after having long been taught Hiroshima was a purely civilian
> target.

While I agree with the general disdain for what has been labeled
"revisionist" here, facts contrary to our opinions don't necessarily belong
in that category. Hiroshima was a far different city by the time of the
bombing than that depicted in the photographs. A case in point from the
aforementioned source:

   Down by the docks, from which almost every Nipponese soldier who
   went to the southwestern Pacific fighting area had sailed, a
   deathlike quiet hung over the big embarkation facilities. . . .
   Where the city in earlier years had bulged with as many as 100,000
   troops en route to the front, it now held only one division, and
   that was preparing for defense, not attack. . . . The once-busy
   harbor was dead. American planes had dropped so many mines into the
   waters of the Inland Sea that no shipping came to Hiroshima any more.

Too often writers, myself included, begin with a premise and selectively
present evidence to support our points of view with little regard for any
larger context. Ultimately this is the failure of NO HIGH GROUND. But,
however skewed we may think the authors' perspective, there is no denying
that such "revisionists" often make valid points, and we do scholarship a
disservice to pretend otherwise.

For the record, had I been responsible for making the decision concerning
the atomic bombings, I would have bombed Hiroshima for the simple reason
that doing so left the enemy with no doubt as to the power of the weapon
and my resolve to use it. Immoral? Perhaps. But how less immoral would have
been a president's decision to invade Japan at the undoubted cost of tens
of thousands of American lives when he had so effective an alternative to
their sacrifice at hand?

Ron Skinner

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 16:19:46 -0400
From:    Emery Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: Hungarians and Rumanians on the Eastern Front

Hello,

I've read various allusions that the tension between Hungarians and
Rumanians in WWII was so high that they occasionally fight each other.
Does anyone have access to specific accounts?

Emery

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 16:24:59 EDT
From:    Brian Nicklas <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Switzerland in WWII

A photo book from Squadron/Signal on US/Swiss adventures in WWII,
"Strangers in a Strange Land" by Stapfer is quite good.
He points out that if you landed in Switzerland you were a "Detainee"
but if you landed in Germany and escaped into Switzerland you were
a "Evadee" and treated much differently.
A co-worker of my father's was a detainee as a result of a
B-17 landing at a Swiss airfield and he has absolutely
no love for the Swiss.  He related that the treatment was very poor
until it was evident that the Allies were winning.
But to counter that, I have heard that it varied on who one dealt with,
Swiss of German extraction or of French parentage.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 15:38:03 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAPON: Amphibious Landings and Tanks

Hello, Mike!

The Germans also used those same PzKw III's in the crossing of the
Bug at Brest-Litovsk in Poland during the opening phases of Operation
Barbarossa. Please consult Paul Carrel's book "Hitler Moves East" for
additional details.

Terry

> I am aware of those PzKw III's  (and have even seen a photo, from "Signal")
> used for crossing the Nieman in June '41.  They were actually designed and teste
> d for the cancelled Sea Lion operation.  An inflatable rubber tube around the
> turret made it watertight, and an early version of the schnorkel concept
> allowed the engine to breathe.  The caps over the gun barrel were popped off
> by compressed air to allow the tank to be combat-ready as soon as it reached
> the other side (without any of the crew having to exit the vehicle).  These
> tanks were not standard field equipment and to the best of my knowledge were
> not used again.  There is a good account of this operation in Paul Carell's
> "Hitler Moves East."
>
> Mike Yaklich
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 16:37:45 EDT
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Italy in WW2, my $0.02--part II

Did the pre-war SS really have no equal in Europe? Royal Marines? And  what
do we know of elite Soviet units in this period?

Whatever the opinion of WW II Rumanian troops may be, they were hardly
cowards. Those committed to Barbarossa prior to Nov 1941 took some of
the highest casualty rates in the European war.

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 14:25:40 EST
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: INF: U.S. plants in enemy countries

Hello Tim,
        Its been many years ago that I read it, but there was a little
book called _Trading With the Enemy_ devoted to the subject.  Sorry I
don't have the author but it ought to be in any decent library.
*****************************************************
Brad Coon                     Windows: the operating
[email-masked]          system for people who
[email-masked]    think even a Macintosh
                              is too fast.

Remember, only YOU can prevent political correctness!
******************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 17:14:36 EDT
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP:aircraft comparisons

Dear Mike,

Thanks. Hadn't known that about the Yugoslav AF..

HS

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 17:15:40 -0500
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hungarians and Rumanians on the Eastern Front

        The tension between the Rumanians and Hungarians, then as now, was
largely the dispute over Transylvania.  The two nations had been on the verge
of war over this issue in summer 1940 when the Germans stepped in and
adjudicated a peace treaty at the Bellvidere palace in Vienna.  Rumania was the
big loser in this treaty territorially speaking (Manoilescu, the Rumanian
Foreign Minister, was said to have fainted when shown the new border lines),
but part of the deal was a German guarantee of the remainder of the Rumanian
state.  This was actually the beginning of a close three-year relationship
between the Germans and the Antonescu government.
        I believe what you're referring to is not actual fighting between
Rumanian and Hungarian forces on the eastern front, but rather the preventive
measures taken by the Germans to prevent incidents (most notoriously, the
Italian 8th Army in Russia was supposedly inserted between the Rumanians and
the Hungarian 2nd Army along the Don in 1942 specifically to avoid conflicts).
        C.A. Macartney's "History of Hungary 1929-45" is an excellent, detailed
account of Hungarian diplomacy before and during WW2 which goes into the
situation with Rumania at some length.

Regards

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 16:44:28 -0500
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Operation Truckin'

Thanks to Jack McKillop for information about how gasoline was transported
by B-24's.  Flying with a load of 5-gallon cans of gas just waiting to leak
and catch fire is definitely a gut-wrenching nightmare.
Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 17:58:50 EDT
From:    Brian Nicklas <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Operation Truckin'

Don Lopez once related to me that the C-109 Liberator tankers were
nicknamed "Cee-One-Oh-Boom"s due to the happy nature of the cargo. :-)
I guess that's why Don was happy to fly the P-40 and P-51.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 18:05:33 -0500
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Italy in WW2, my $0.02--part II

        As per my previous post, I agree that the Blackshirts were in general
nowhere near the same league as the Waffen SS as combat troops.  Still, in the
last post on this topic I have to take exception to one line, referring to
"the Italians and the Spanish didn't do very well in Russia."  Actually, if
you look at the record of the Italian forces fighting on the eastern front you
will find that, prior to the Soviet counteroffensive against 8th Army in
December '42, they generally fought better there than in any other theatre
(with the possible exception of Yugoslavia).  The original CSIR ("Corpo di
Spedizione Italiano in Russia") was composed of the "Amadeo D'Aosta" celere
division and the Torino and Pasubio "motor-transportable" divisions.  All three
were somewhat sub-strength in manpower (a "celere" division at full strength
had 7,700 men; "motor-transportable" units were deliberately kept small so as
to make it easier to find adequate motor transport).  The "celere" division was
a mix of two or three small (actually battalion-size) horse cavalry regiments,
a bersaglieri bicycle regiment, a tank battalion (with L3 light tanks), and (in
the case of the "Amadeo D'Aosta") a horse-drawn artillery regiment.  The other
two divisions had motorized artillery but the rest were marching infantry-- the
term "motor-transportable" referred to motor transport which was not organic to
the division (except for the aforementioned artillery) but which would
theoretically be provided from corps or army HQ.  There was a motor transport
command for personnel within the command set-up of the CSIR.  The Italian force
totalled 63,000 men, commanded by General Giovanni Messe, who had established a
good reputation for defending Valona in Albania during the Greek campaign.
        The CSIR, operating on the southern third of the front, got its first
action in August 1941, the Pasubio Division being the first to engage the Red
Army.  They successfully forced a crossing of the Dneiper in early September,
won a five-day fight against Soviet rear-guards on the other side, and played a
major role in the capture (hardly ever credited in English-language histories,
which have a disturbing tendency to regard all Axis victories as "German") of
the industrial center of Stalino in October.  Swept along by the pace of the
German-led drive east, they advanced up to 250 miles in a week!  Italian forces
often volunteered for the tough job of winkling out Soviet die-hards, whom, as
anyone who's read a bit about the Russian front knows, often fought to the
death even when holding positions miles behind the fighting front.  In late
December the CSIR, although suffering badly from the cold and lack of supplies,
managed to contain a local Soviet counterattack in what the Italians called the
"Battle of Christmas."  Their retreat of only a few kilometers before
stabilizing their lines was not a bad performance by Axis standards in the east
in late December '41.  Later they joined the general retreat.
        In mid-summer 1942, in response to requests by the Germans, the
Italians increased their forces in the east, creating 8th Army (Gen.
Gariboldi), which incorporated the CSIR (now known as 35th Corps) as well as
2nd Corps of two regular infantry divisions and the Alpini Corps of three elite
mountain divisions.  An additional division was assigned to keep the lines of
communications free of partisans.  This commitment brought the Italian forces
in Russia up to 200,000 men, but the general level of motorization fell.  The
Italians never sent an armored vehicle of over 7 tons to Russia, and their
armored forces there at the start of the campaign amounted to 55 L3 and L6
tanks (44 of the 283 L6's built fought in Russia) and 19 self-propelled 47-mm
guns.  Italian units sent east in '42 were notoriously badly-equipped.  In most
platoons there was only one Beretta submachinegun instead of the prescribed
four, battalions usually lacked any kind of antitank weapons, and most
regiments were eithout the four 47-mm antitank guns their t/o's called for.
        Nonetheless, in August 1942 the 35th Corps, holding the line of the Don
river north of Stalingrad, fought off a Soviet counteroffensive aimed at
relieving the pressure on Stalingrad in the area around Serafimovich.  It was a
pretty hard-fought affair, the Italians suffering 1,700 casualties, but in the
end taking over 2,000 Soviet prisoners and capturing 10 tanks (including a
number of US-made "lend-lease" Grants)-- and doing all this without direct
German help (in fact, their tough stand saved the Germans some embarrasment).
This fight culminated in the "ultima carrica" ("last charge") of the Italian
horse cavalry, near the village of Ischbuschensky (actually it wasn't the last
charge--that came in Yugoslavia a couple months later, but that's another
story).  The Savoia cavalry regiment, about 600 men strong, attacked a Soviet
force of 2,000 men (three battalions), dug in and supported by four cannon and
over 50 machineguns.  Partly due to the sheer audacity and "shock" of their
onslaught and partly because of good tactics (one squadron advanced on foot
frontally as a diversion while a second charged the flank on horseback, the
third squadron then coming in on horseback from the front to complete the
route) they put the Soviets to flight, nearly wiping out two of the enemy
battalions.   This unlikely victory was the last act of the successful phase of
the Italian participation in the east.  In December 1942 the Soviets, having
already rolled up the Rumanian 3rd and 4th Armies and encircled the German 6th
Army in Stalingrad, launched a new full-scale offensive against the Italian 8th
Army (behind whose front lay the main airfields for the Luftwaffe units
attempting to airlift supplies to the surrounded forces in Stalingrad).
Outnumbered four to one, assailed by tanks like the T-34 and the KV-1 which the
old 47-mm AT gun could not penetrate, and with their own artillery blinded by
snowstorms, the Italian infantry divisions holding the line were rather quickly
swept away.  This began a disastrous 300-mile retreat through temperatures of
minus-30 or more, in which the Italians lost 115,000 men (60,000 of them
prisoners), and the 8th Army was smashed as a fighting force.  This certainly
was a poor showing, but as explained above, there were plenty of creditable
efforts preceding it.  And even so, the Italians did no worse than the Rumanian
or Hungarian forces that winter, or even many German units attacked in the
1941-42 or 42-43 Soviet winter offensives.  In fact, the Alpini Corps, north of
the main breakthrough area (consisting of the Giulia, Cuneense, and Tridentina
alpini divisions) held its lines for almost another month, until the Hungarians
to their immediate north were also attacked and broken, leaving the Italian
mountain troops virtually surrounded.  Then the alpini fought their way out of
the pocket and eventually rejoined 8th Army, although the cost in men and
equipment was so high that six months later the divisions involved, refitting
in Italy, had still not recovered their combat effectiveness.
        Sorry for the length of this post, but the Italian effort is one of my
main interests, and blanket statements like "the Italians didn't do too well in
Russia" get me going (in the long run, the Germans didn't do too well there
either, did they?).  I should also mention that the single Italian fighter
group in Russia, flying Macchi MC 200's (and in 1942 a handfull of MC 202's)
over two years shot down 88 Soviet planes for the loss of 19 fighters.
        From what I know of the Spanish Blue Division, by the way, their combat
record wasn't too shabby either.  They fought almost to the death against very
heavy odds south of Leningrad.

Regards

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 19:03:18 -0400
From:    "Shelley A. McCoy" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Lt. Greenwood-Red Ball Express Company B. Supply Battalion????

Does anyone out there know of the Lt. or other members of the Red Ball
Express, Company B?
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 19:07:35 -0500
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: The Italians

I think what people have written about Mussolini's Blackshirts and their
similarity to the SA generally sums up their fighting qualities.  In
Coverdale, ITALIAN INTERVENTION IN THE SPANISH CIVIL WAR, the initial
"volunteers" were mostly Blackshirts; Coverdale indicates that many were
middle-aged political hacks who tried desperately to avoid going to
Spain.  Most of the later members of the Italian expeditionary force
seemed to be members of the Army who had no great ideological biases,
but were probably better fighting men.
Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 19:38:07 -0500
From:    Greg Kelley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Italy in WW2, my $0.02--part III

Far be it for me to suggest the GGFF weren't great fighters (they were),
but again, they were an exception, with the special training & equipment
needed to make any combat formation elite.  Most of the other MSVN units
showed decidedly lower performance levels-- for example, the five
Blackshirt divisions formed in 1935 for the Abbyssinian campaign--
finally convincing the Duce to insert the bulk of the MSVN as legions
attached to regular Army divisions.  Note that only half of the units
raised by the MSVN were so assigned; each prewar Legion was essentially
split in half (the Duce liked to double his forces, didn't he?) with the
weaker half (comprised of older, less active members) retained as a
hometown garrison--sometimes armed, othertimes, well...ceremonial daggers
and banners were a mainstay.

As for the Italians' performance in Russia, yes, they did do very well.
That cavalry charge was a classic "against all odds" action that deserves
recognition (bravissimo!), and I'm glad someone's noticed.  Anyone out
there familiar with WHITE COATS UNDER FIRE dealing with an Italian
medical unit serving in Russia?  Any other titles (preferably in English)
about this aspect of Italian military history?  I'm familiar with THE
LOST LEGIONS, but that's a collection of (admittedly good) historical novels.

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 19:57:15 -0500
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: The Italians

Can someone confirm the following about the Italian Army?

Before Mussolini ordered WW II, he ordered the third regiment removed from
every infantry division and used them to create new divisions.  The result
was to increase the Italian Army by 1/3, on paper.  To make up for it, he
incorporated Blackshirt battalions into the regular army divisions.

I'm without a source, so maybe Joe, Terry or Mike or someone else with
access to a source (or a better memory than mine) can confirm this.
TIA
Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 21:13:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 4 OCT 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
WEDNESDAY, 4 OCTOBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): In the Kurile Islands, a B-24 weatheraborts a
photo run off Matsuwa Island; 4 B-25s bomb a freighter and a barge off
Shimushu Island; 15-17 fighters intercept and the B-25s score 1 victory.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 8 P-47s damage approaches to a
bridge between Myitkyina and Bhamo; 16 P-47s hit the town of Palwesho; 4
others hit small towns S of Bhamo, including Man The and Hantet.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 5 B-25s hit Hsinantien and areas N
of Chefang; 80+ P-40s and P-51s continue to attack targets of opportunity
during armed reconnaissance over areas of China S of the Yangtze River; 20+
fighter-bombers hit buildings, troops, and river shipping in the Paoching
area.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  AIRBORNE OPERATIONS (IX Troop Carrier Command): The 306th Troop Carrier
Squadron, 442d Troop Carrier Group, moves from Weston Zoyland, England to
Peray, France with C-47s.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 664: 5 B-24s and 4 B-17s
drop leaflets in the Low Countries, France and Germany during the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Bombers drop leaflets in the Metz
and Saint-Die, France and Saarburg, Germany areas; fighters support the US
First and Third Armies in W Germany and E France, escort B-26s, and fly armed
reconnaissance in forward areas, attacking rail and military targets. In
Belgium, HQ 365th Fighter Group and the 386th, 387th and 388th Fighter
Squadrons move from Juvincourt, France to Chievres with P-47s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 327 B-17s and B-24s, with
fighter escort, bomb the Munich W, Germany marshalling yard. In Italy, around
400 other heavy bombers, attack the rail line in the Trento-Mezzaselva area
covering 50+ miles (80+ km) of the Brenner route, Aviano Airfield, Avisio
viaduct, and railroad and road bridges at Pinzano al Tagliamento, Pordenone,
Latisana, Casarsa della Delizia, Mezzocorona, Ora, and San Dona di Piave. In
Greece, 39 P-51s strafe Tatoi, Kalamaki, and Eleusis Airfields. Other P-51s
escort Mediterranean Allied Tactical Air Force (MATAF) C-47s and fly
reconnaissance.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, weather restricts medium
bombers to attacks on 2 bridges at Bistagno and Villafranca d'Asti; fighter-
bombers closely support ground forces fighting in the Loiano-Quinzanod'Oglio-
Sassoleone areas, and hit communications N of the battle areas; HQ 47th
Bombardment Group (Light) and the 84th, 85th and 86th Bombardment Squadrons
(Light) move from Follonica to Rosignano Airfield with A-20s; HQ 79th Fighter
Group and the 86th and 87th Fighter Squadrons move from Southern France to
Iesi with P-47s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): B-24s from Saipan Island attack shipping W of
Iwo Jima Island and bomb airfields, the radio station, buildings, and area
targets on Marcus, Pagan, and Iwo Jima Islands. P-47s hit gun positions,
beach defenses, buildings, and the wharf area on Pagan Island. B-24s from the
Marshall Islands bomb the airfield on Moen Island, Truk Atoll.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: On Celebes Island,
B-25s bomb Sidate and Bolaang-oeki. On Halmahera Island, P-40s and B-25s
attack Galela and Kaoe Airfields. B-25s and A-20s on a shipping sweep bomb
town and port area of Amboina on Ambon Island, hit a wharf at Halong on
Celebes Island, and attack shipping and shore targets of opportunity at
various points. In New Guinea, HQ 403d Troop Carrier Group moves from Los
Negros Island, Admiralty Islands to Biak Island; the 13th Troop Carrier
Squadron, 403d Troop Carrier Group, based on Espiritu Santo Island, New
Hebrides Islands, ceases operating from Los Negros Island and begins
operating from Wakde Island with C-47s; the 63d Troop Carrier Squadron, 403d
Troop Carrier Group, based on Biak Island, begins operating from Wakde Island
with C-47s. In the Moluccas Islands, the 35th Fighter Squadron, 8th Fighter
Group, moves from Owi, Schouten Islands to Morotai Island with P-38s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

04/0116Z OCT

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 21:33:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [INF] USAAF 2 OCT 44

 >Jack McKillop noted B-17 bombing a FORD (!) motor vehicle plant in Cologne
 >Germany on this date.  Does anyone know if there were many American-owned
 >manufacturing plants in Europe, contributing to the Nazi war effort?  I
 >always thought American-owned plants in foreign countries were a
 >phenomenon of the post-war era.
 >Tim J. Watts
 >Valparaiso University

Tim,
You got me on this one.  I checked my references and found that
from Aug to Nov 44, the Eighth and Fifteenth Air Forces and RAF
Bomber Command waged a inconclusive offensive against German
ordnance depots, tank assembly plants and motor vehicle factories i
the hope that the German army could be denied heavy equipment as
they reorganized behind the Siegfried Line.  Eight key tank
plants: Henschel und Sohn at Kassel, Maschinenfabrik at St
Valentine in Austria, Krupp Grusonwerke at Magdeburg, Daimler-Benz
and Alkett in the vicinity of Berlin and 3 assault-gun factories
in Brunswick and Berlin were all hit.  Other targets were
automobile and truck factories and 7 plants were attacked: Ford at
Cologne, Saurer at Vienna, Daimler-Benz at Gaggenau, Bussing at
Brunswick, Borgward at Bremen, Adam Opel near Berlin, and
Daimler-Benz at Mannheim.  The largeest ordnance depots at Ulm,
Hannover, Vienna, Berlin, Magdeburg, Kassel, Ingolstadt, Munich,
Breslau, Bielefeld and others were also hit.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 21:41:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: F-82

 >How was the P-82 managed? What happened, for example when the right pilot
 >wanted to go left, and the left pilot wanted to go right? Was one pilot
 >designated the lead pilot? And what if he got disabled in flight?
 >
 >Maybe I'm confused, but I cannot for the life of me figure out why such
 >a craft was designed outside of a barroom...
 >
 >(I know I show my ignorance, there HAD to be a reason!)

 >Steven E. Pudlo  - [email-masked] |"Life may be a drag BUT
 >STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
 >Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
 >574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
 >Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..

The P-82 was developed based up an Advanced Development Objective
issued on 20 Feb 42.  The ADO of 1942 responded to the AAF's 1941
air war plans that "urged developement of special escort planes [even
thought] bombers for the moment could rely on current interceptor-
type models for support, especially the P-47."  This new fighter
escort was to penetrate deep into enemy territory; it's immediate
role would be to escort B-29s to Japan.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 20:45:46 -0500
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Italy in WW2, my $0.02--part III

Greg-
It's not about the Italians in Russia, but are you familiar with THE
HOLLOW LEGIONS?  I don't have an author, but it's a history of the Italian
attack on Greece in 1940.  You might also want to look at Riccio, ITALIAN
TANKS AND FIGHTING VEHICLES OF WORLD WAR II (1975).
Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 22:31:18 -0400
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: TACT:Battle of the Bulge (was Re: TACT:Could they have won ?

On Mon, 3 Oct 1994, William Lippert wrote:

>    The Ardennes Offensive probably did hasten their defeat.  But, without
> the benefit of hindsight, what would you do if you were Hitler, faced with
> a superior enemy on both sides?  I'm sorry to those people who don't like
> if questions, but they are essential for a full understanding of why certain
> decisions were made and events came to pass.  Rommel, when faced with the
> British in North Africa driving him almost out of Italy, counterattacked.
> This is what made him the Desert Fox - striking when least expected.
>       All together, I found Hitler's offensive very admirable.  To begin
> with, he clearly caught the Allies by surprise.  Second, that although it
> was ultimately to fail, it did restore morale to the German troops for
> a while.  And third, I might question whether or not it speeded up the
> end of the Reich.  The troops and equipment would probably have been
> encircled, destroyed by the air, or just chewed up on the Eastern Front.
> It really might have only made the difference of a month or two.

William, I think you're mixing apples and oranges when you compare
Rommel's desert attacks to Hitlers plan in 1944. While they say that
hindsight is 20/20, I think it is pretty clear that Hitler's plan had no
chance of success (as most of his Generals at the time thought). Even if
he had the gas/ammunition/men/etc to drive a wedge between the British and
American troops, he had underestimated the strength of their alliance.
Rommel's attacks (after El Al.) were more reminiscent of the Russian
troops attacking Napoleon as he tried to retreat from Moscow.
David Rising

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 4 Oct 1994 13:20:34 +0010
From:    Jeff Rixon <[email-masked]>
Subject: 12th ss panzer division germany

i am a wargammer and require details of what combat vehicles were used by this unit from d-day to falaise pocket. thanks for any assistance. please e-mail direct to [email-masked]

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 2 Oct 1994 to 3 Oct 1994
***********************************************