Subject: WWII-L Digest - 1 Oct 1994 to 2 Oct 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 00:00:48 -0400

There are 13 messages totalling 467 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. P-61 (2)
  2. Hiroshima
  3. INF: 50 Years Ago - 02-OCT-1944
  4. INF: 50 Years Ago - 03-OCT-1944
  5. [TRIV] Re: odd WWII air encounters
  6. TAC: ?'Could still loose the war?
  7. Odd Encounters
  8. 79th INF Division History (2)
  9. [INF] USAAF 3 OCT 44
 10. Operation TRUCKIN'
 11. [TRIV] RE: ODD WWI

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Date:    Sun, 2 Oct 1994 01:36:38 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: P-61

    The P-61 was used successfully in both Europe and the Pacific in the
    night intruder role, with a bomb load of 4,000 lb.

    They did not survive the war very long.  Replaced initially by the P-82
    Twin Mustang, and then the F-94 Starfire.

    One interesting sidelight.  The last Curtiss aircraft proposed for the
    AAF was a jet engined night fighter to replace the P-61.  The Nighthawk
    mounted a flexible turret of 4 20mm guns in the nose.  Imagine the
    impact of firing them some 30 deg from the line of flight, especially
    if flying low & slow chasing something like a PO-2 in Korea.

    Steve New

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Date:    Sun, 2 Oct 1994 02:06:38 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Hiroshima

    I might be way off base here, but my memory of reading on the A-bomb
    targeting selection was that the targets had to be cities that had not
    suffered from previous allied bombing attacks, so that follow up
    analysis of the weapon's effects would be easier to accomplish.

    Steve New

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Date:    Sun, 2 Oct 1994 13:32:37 -0700
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 02-OCT-1944

On 02-OCT-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The US 30th Division (XIX Corps, 1st Army) opens an offensive
on the West Wall (the Siegfried Line) between Aachen and Geilenkirchen,
northwest of Aachen.

Eastern Front - General Tadeo Bor, leader of the AK forces in Warsaw, signs
the surrender of his forces to the Germans. Warsaw is a pile of rubble and
more than 250,000 Polish patriots have lost their lives in this gallant, but
ill-fated venture. What is left of Warsaw will be further razed to the ground
at Hitler's orders.

Italian Front - The US II and IV Corps (5th Army) are being held up at Monte
Catarelto and Monte Galletto.

Peleliu - The 321st Infantry eliminates Japanese resistance on Mount Amiangal.
In the Mount Umurbrogol sector, the 7th Marines are still being held up by the
Japanese forces, determined to resist to the very last man.

Angaur - The 322nd Infantry breaks off their attack in the northwest of the
island. They begin the systematic shelling of the area.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "Facts On File Yearbook 1944,
Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
----------

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Date:    Sun, 2 Oct 1994 13:32:51 -0700
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 03-OCT-1944

On 03-OCT-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The US 3rd Division penetrates into the Seigfried Line and
reaches Ubach, where it is overtaken by the 2nd Armoured Division, which has
crossed the Wurm at Marienberg. In the XX Corps sector, the offensive against
Mertz is resumed. Early in the afternoon, 247 bombers of RAF Bomber Command
attack the Westkapelle dyke on the island of Walcheren. The mission is a
complete success. Over a hundred yards of the dyke is destroyed and the sea
floods thousands of acres of land.

Eastern Front - Troops of the Leningrad Front land on the island of Hiiumaa
and attack the German garrison. The three Baltic Fronts continue their
offensive against the German Army Group North, which is being slowly driven
back towards Riga.

Peleliu - The 7th Marines make some progress against the Japanese positions on
the east side of Mount Umurbrogol.

The Homefront
-------------
Wasps To Disband - Gen. H.H. Arnold, Army Air Forces chief, has announced in
Washington that the Women's Air Force Service Pilots will be deactivated Dec.
20 unless there is a sudden rise in air combat losses in Germany.

Jackie Cooper Acquited - A juvenile court referee in South Bend, Ind. Has
acquited former movie actor Jackie Cooper and two others of contributing to
the delinquency of two South Bend girls.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "Facts On File Yearbook 1944,
Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

----------
John Davis  [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
----------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 00:19:22 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [TRIV] Re: odd WWII air encounters

On Fri, 30 Sep 1994, Emmanuel Gustin wrote:

> > Next,  just how did the Japanese come up with the Kikka design?
> > German Design plans or did they get a 262 for study?
> > They also had something like the Me 163 Komet.  Pictures look too close
> > to the Nazi Komet to be anything but a direct copy.

Mitsubishi negotiated with Messerschmitt in 1943-1944 to get a
manufacturing license. The Germans agreed to sent them a Me 163 in parts,
construction drawings, and related materials. The submarine carrying the
Me 163 and the plans was sunk, and all that reached Japan was the Walter
509 rocket engine and an instruction manual. The Japanese then
reverse-engineered their J8M.

The Kikka was based on the Me 262 in its general outline, as it was known
by reports from Germany. But it was an entirely new design. Just look at a
photograph: the configuration is the same, all the rest is different. The
Ne-20 engines were based on the BMW 003 turbojet.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 00:39:22 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: P-61

On Fri, 30 Sep 1994, Drew Halevy wrote:

> did the P-80A have any kills in Italy?-Drew

No, no combat at all.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 00:44:34 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TAC: ?'Could still loose the war?

On Fri, 30 Sep 1994, Robert T. Moore wrote:

> > operating in American uniforms behind the lines, he locked himself up in
> > Versailles (!) for eight days, and that Bradley did the same in Luxemburg.

>     That is absolutely not true. In fact, Ike's staff tried to keep
> him confined, if you will, but Ike would not hear of it. As for
> Bradley, there is no evidence to support this. Security may have been
> tightened, but his movements were not restricted.

Thanks. The BBC is transmitting a series on personalities of this century
(titled 'Reputations') and this one was a largely (but not exclusively)
British view on the controversy between Eisenhower and Montgomery.
Hence...

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 3 Oct 1994 00:47:11 +0100
From:    Emmanuel Gustin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Odd Encounters

On Fri, 30 Sep 1994, Cassady Craft wrote:

> Encounters with the 109 in the Pacific "occured" even be for the Hein Ki61
> was operational.  I believe most authors attribute this to Allied airmen's
> subconscious refusal to believe that the Japanese zero could be _so_ good.

Yes, that can also be the case. US commanders in the Pacific were so
convinced that the Japanese were using German and Italian aircraft, that
they alloted recognition names for a number of them. That for the Bf 109
was 'Mike'.

Emmanuel Gustin

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Oct 1994 20:23:28 -0400
From:    Andrew Herd <[email-masked]>
Subject: 79th INF Division History

I come from a small English village called Haydock, Nr Liverpool. During
WW  II the village became home to the 79th Us Infantry.

Prior to Normandy many long term friendships were made. Recently a relative
of  mine requested information on this unit because no one seemed to have
heard  anything about them since.

I would be much obliged to anyone who knows their history or reference
sources.

A.J. Herd

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Oct 1994 20:23:09 EDT
From:    "SGM Robert S. Rush" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: 79th INF Division History

Re:  79th Division
Quite possibly the reason you haven't heard of the 79th in later years is
for the reason that it was one of the divisions deactivated after the war.
But not forgotten.  The 79th ARCOM (Army Reserve Command) draws it lineage
from the 79th Division.  It is headquartered in Willow Grove Pennsylvania.
Hope this helps.

Rob Rush

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Oct 1994 21:10:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 3 OCT 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
TUESDAY, 3 OCTOBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  L-1, Stinson Vigilant
  L-4, Piper Cub/Grasshopper
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): In the Kurile Islands, 2 B-24s flying offshore
reconnaissance over Onnekotan, Harumukotan, and Shasukotan Islands also
strafe several small vessels.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): Troop carriers fly 240+ sorties, delivering
men and supplies to various points in the CBI. In Burma, the 5th Liaison
Squadron, Tenth Air Force [attached to 1st Liaison Group (Provisional)],
moves from Shaduzup to Myitkyina with L-1s and L-5s.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 23 B-25s attack Pingnam, trucks and
rivercraft in the Wuchou, Samshui, and Canton areas, and bomb Tien Ho and
White Cloud Airfields in Canton; 100 P-51s and P-40s continue armed
reconnaissance over wide expanses of China S of the Yangtze River, attacking
rivercraft, road traffic, troops, town areas, and other targets of
opportunity; the Hsinganhsien, Pingnam, and Chuanhsien areas are covered
exceptionally well.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 2 missions are flown:
  Mission 662: 1,065 bombers and 753 fighters make PFF and visual attacks
against airfields and industrial targets in Germany; 3 bombers and 4 fighters
are lost:
  1. 380 B-17s are dispatched to hit Giebelstadt Airfield (49); targets of
opportunity are Nurnberg (256), Ludwigshafen (13), Ulm (11) and others (24);
130 B-17s are damaged; 2 airmen are WIA. Escort is provided by 260 P-47s and
P-51s; they claim 2-0-0 aircraft on the ground; 4 P-51s are lost (pilots MIA)
and 1 is damaged beyond repair.
  2. 228 B-17s are dispatched to hit motor a vehicle factory at Nurnberg (198);
10 others hit Ottingen Airfield; 3 B-17s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair
and 63 damaged; 2 airmen are KIA, 4 WIA and 28 MIA. Escort is provided by 227
P-47s and P-51s; 1 P-51 is damaged beyond repair.
  3. 119 B-17s are dispatched to hit the oil refinery at Wesseling (87);
targets of opportunity are Cologne (26) and 1 other; 1 B-17 is damaged beyond
repair and 51 damaged. Escort is provided by 24 of 24 P-47s.
  4. 338 B-24s are dispatched to hit Gaggenau (139) and Lachen/Speyerdorf
(111) visually; secondary targets hit are Offenburg marshalling yard (19) and
Pforzheim Airfield (19); targets of opportunity are Speyer Airfield (30) and
Lachen (2); 1 B-24 is damaged beyond repair and 38 damaged; 2 airmen are WIA.
Escort is provided by 188 P-38s and P-47s.
  Mission 663: 6 B-24s and 4 B-17s drop leaflets in France, Germany, the
Netherlands and Belgium during the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 220+ B-26s and A-20s sent to bomb
targets at Durena and Aldenhoven, Germany, and Arnhem, the Netherlands are
recalled because of weather; fighters fly armed reconnaissance over W
Germany, hit railroads W of the Rhine River, and support the US Third Army in
the Metz, France area. The IX Air Defense Command continues night patrols. In
Belgium, HQ 70th Fighter Wing moves from Marchais, France to Liege; HQ 303d
Fighter Wing moves from Vermand, France to Arlon. In France, HQ 98th Combat
Bombardment Wing (Medium) moves from Chartres to Laon/Athies; the 23d Fighter
Squadron, 36th Fighter Group, moves from Athis to Juvincourt with P-47s; and
the 405th Fighter Squadron, 371st Fighter Group, moves from Perthes to
Dole/Tavaux with P-47s.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  AAF, MTO: "A" Flight of the 121st Liaison Squadron, AAF, MTO, moves from
Lyons to Vittel, France with L-4s and L-5s (squadron is based at Pomigliano,
Italy).

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): For the eighth consecutive day
bad weather prevents bombing operations.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, medium bombers continue
to pound road and rail bridges and fuel dumps in the Po Valley; A-20s,
fighter-bombers, and fighters of the XII Fighter Command hit fuel dumps, rail
lines, and transportation in the Valley and support US Fifth Army forces in
the battle areas in the N Apennines S and SW of Bologna and N of the Arno
River Valley; the 4th Troop Carrier Squadron, 62d Troop Carrier Group, moves
from Galera Airfield to Malignano Airfield with C-47s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): B-24s from Saipan Island hit shipping in the
Bonin Islands while P-47s pound gun positions, buildings, and a wharf on
Pagan Island, Mariana Islands. B-24s on special reconnaissance missions bomb
the airfield on Iwo Jima Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: For the second time
B-24s bomb oil refineries in the Balikpapan, Borneo area, B-25s hit shipping
and bomb Sanana on Sanana Island, Moluccas Islands; on Halmahera Island,
B-25s smash Kaoe runway and bomb Galela; B-25s and B-24s over Ceram Island-
Ambon Island hit barge and coastal targets of opportunity and pound Taka
Airfield in the Moluccas Islands, while fighter-bombers attack Halong
seaplane base on Celebes Island and Namlea Airfield on Buru Island and
Haroekoe Airfields on Haroekoe Island. On the Vogelkop Peninsula in New
Guinea, fighter-bombers again hit Fak Fak and Otawiri.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

03/0112Z OCT

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Date:    Sun, 2 Oct 1994 21:33:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Operation TRUCKIN'

 >Jack-
 >Do you know how the B-24's transported fuel?  Did they have some kind of
 >special bomb-bay fuel tanks and pump the fuel into tank trucks on the
 >receiving end?  Or did they just have to load up with 55-gallon drums?
 >Actually, I guess I have the same question for any plane in WW II carrying
 >fuel.
 >Thanks again for posting the daily chronolog and answering off the wall
 >questions from people like me.
 >Tim J.  Watts
 >Valparaiso University

Tim is referring to Operation TRUCKIN', i.e., Eighth Air Force
B-24s flying fuel from England to France.  Here is some background
and the answers to Tim's questions.

The rapid Allied advance across France in August and September,
1944 taxed the Allies supply facilities to the limit.  Most people
have heard of the Red Ball Express but the Eighth Air Force also
was involved in this supply effort.

The C-47s of the Eighth and Ninth Air Forces were overtaxed in
trying to deliver supplies to the rapidly advancing Allies so the
Eighth Air Force supplied Consolidated B-24 Liberators to the
effort in Aug 44.  The B-24s of the 492d Bombardment Group (Heavy),
normally involved in CARPETBAGGER missions, and 200 B-24s of the 2d
Bombardment Division were diverted to transport duties.  The B-24s
of the 20th Combat Bombardment Wing (Heavy) were relieved of
bombing operations effective 28 Aug and starting on the 29th, began
delivering food and medical supplies from staging bases in England
to Orleans/Bricy, about 70 miles (113 km) S of Paris, these
missions continued until 9 Sep.  On 12 Sep, the 96th Combat
Bombardment Wing (Heavy) began hauling supplies and on 17 Sep, the
2d Combat Bombardment Wing (Heavy) joined the effort.  Starting on
20 Sep, the 96th spent 11 days hauling fuel, flying 2,117,310 US
gallons (8,014,042 liters) into France.  The B-24s flew between
Horsham St Faith, Rackheath and Attlebridge, England and fuel dumps
to provide 80 octane gasoline to Chartres, St Dizier and Floreenes,
France.  Initially, 5 US gallon (18.9 l) jerrycans were loaded into
the B-24s through the waist windows from which the gun mounts had
been removed.  Later, pumping equipment was available at some
French airfields and the gasoline could be carried in bomb bay
tanks and fighter plane drop tanks stacked in the fuselage.

On these missions, the B-24s had a 5-man crew, two pilots, navigator,
flight engineer and radio-operator; 2 passengers could also be
carried.  A total of 2,248 TRUCKIN' sorties were flown to take
9,880 tons of materials to the troops in France.  These missions
could be dangerous.  On 13 Sep, a 492d Group B-24 crashed on takeoff
from England and the crew was lost; on the final day of operations, a
B-24 was hit by ground fire and again all men were lost.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Oct 1994 23:42:07 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [TRIV] RE: ODD WWI

I am glad the matter of the ME came up again, because I remembered that I had
written something about it in "Victory and Occupation," vol V, "U.S. Marine
Corps Operations in World War II." In a note on p. 227, I wrote: "While
intercepting an enemy flight in the early evening twilight of 24 May [1945], a
VMF-312 pilot reported sighting and downing a Tony. Interestingly enough, the
Marine flyer reported that the Japanese plane was dark gray and had a black
cross painted on the underside of each wing, very much like Maltese Cross
markings on German military aircraft. This was taken from the VMF=312 war diary
for Mar45. I noted that "Although the configuration of the Tony and the
Messerschmitt
-109 were similar, a search of available records do not indicate of either
German pilots or planes in the Pacific, nor is any reason given for a Japanese
plane to be painted in this fashion." Ben Frank

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End of WWII-L Digest - 1 Oct 1994 to 2 Oct 1994
***********************************************