Subject: WWII-L Digest - 12 Oct 1994 to 13 Oct 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 00:01:06 -0400

There are 46 messages totalling 1372 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. FDR'S HEALTH (8)
  2. HYPO: The "Big" what-if?
  3. GEN Re: Research
  4. INF: Regia Marina, Part 2 (2)
  5. INF: 50 Years Ago - 14-OCT-1944
  6. Invasion of Crete -- Operation Merkur
  7. WEAP: B-26 (3)
  8. TECH ETO logistics
  9. WEAP: B(A?) 26
 10. Aircraft in Profile (2)
 11. quick help (2)
 12. FDR's Health (3)
 13. How Many Bridges Too Far?
 14. WEAP: Ta-183 (& others)
 15. TAC: RN Torpedo Attacks
 16. French ports (3)
 17. WANT: People to crew PBY
 18. TWO QUESTIONS (4)
 19. BIO:  Wingate
 20. ROMANIAN VOLUNTEERS OF THE WAFFEN-SS (book title) (2)
 21. U-Boats and The Laconia
 22. French ports, Battleship LORRAINE
 23. <No subject given>
 24. [INF] USAAF 14 OCT 44
 25. Research
 26. "Dambusters" and German Electric Capacity

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 12 Oct 1994 23:17:58 -0500
From:    GEORGE BAUER <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: FDR'S HEALTH

ben:

Please keep your opinions to yourself...  He deserves it...  Really...

The list deserves better...

Just the facts, man...

George Bauer
U.S.A.:  [email-masked]
         [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 09:28:37 GMT
From:    Johannes van Vuren <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HYPO: The "Big" what-if?

John E. Kollar wrote:
>>IMHO if the Nazis had 300+ U-boats, then there would be no King of
England today, but a Fuhrer there.

There also would have been no US President today but a Fuhrer there.

John where have you been all these years? That King is long dead.

Johannes van Vuren,
Canterbury, England

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 09:43:24 +0100
From:    Ludwig Goller <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN Re: Research

On Wed, 12 Oct 1994, Sidney W. Kitchel wrote:

> Terry (Robert T. Moore) writes to the list:
> >> a REAL Historian (with a capital "H") and not a hobby-historian.  I would
> >> think it would take a real command of the language, not just a working
> >> vocabulary.  Comments, suggestions, rotten fruit?
> >
> >    I enjoy reading German and have several works in my own
> >collection in that language, for instance, General der Panzertruppen
> >Walther K. Nehring's history of the German tank arm, a role he played
> >in that directly. This work has not been translated into English, yet
> >it contains some info that only General Nehring himself would have
> >known. In order to read that work and others requires a large passive
> >vocabulary; I wouldn't say a large active vocabulary. It would
> >require you to have extensive experience in reading German, not
> >necessarily a speaking knowledge of it.
>
>         I'd say not reading other languages is not a big problem as
> long as you are just interested in the big picture. However, I do find
> that you miss a lot of rich detail. My WWII book collection is mostly
> English but I've got some interesting local or national focus books in
> French and Dutch. Terry's comments show that reading German could be a
> big plus. As some have pointed out, the historigraphy of WWII is
> significantly different in the Soviet and Japanese literature. Knowing
> these languages, you could explore how differently writers in Russian
> and Japanese have characterized the fabric of WWII history. So knowing
> other languages is a fun plus for amateurs and absolutely necessary
> for most real historians.
>
>                                                         --Sid
> --
> Sidney W. Kitchel           [email-masked], [email-masked]
> Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
> 4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
> Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121
>

Sorry for something off-topic:
As a german I always thought, Americans were not interested in other
countries' culture, not even in their language.
Thank you all for correcting my prejudices. :-)

Ludwig

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 10:24:35 +0100
From:    Ludwig Goller <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: Regia Marina, Part 2

On Wed, 12 Oct 1994, Steven Pudlo, Dept. Computer Svcs. wrote:

> Mr. Robert Holt, Jr asks:
>
> >Joe or anyone,
>
> >So the Italians lost(at least temporarily) 3 battleships to the 5 torpedos.
> >All 3 were in a sinking condition or were sunk at the conclusion of
> >the raid.
>
> >Were the Italian ships manned by skeleton crews, and or did
> >they have damage control parties which could/should have done
> >something? Close watertight doors, etc...
>
> >I am astonished.
>
> >This is the raid the Japanese studied for Pearl Harbor correct?
>
>
> It is my impression that the Japanese studies US naval exercises in the
> Pacific, and Central America in the 20's/30's(?) to convince themselves
> that the tactics of arial assault using carrier based aircraft against a
> fleet in harbor was viable.
>
> Someone please correct me if I'm wrong? (dan?)
>                                                                 Steve
AFAIK, there was also a sort of "gun club" in the Japanese navy that did
not believe in the supremacy of carrier based aircraft.
It was the attack on Tarent which motivated the Japanese to develop the
torpedo they used on Pearl Harbour.

Ludwig

>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Steven E. Pudlo  - [email-masked] |"Life may be a drag BUT
> STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
> Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
> 574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
> Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 05:01:37 -0700
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 14-OCT-1944

On 14-OCT-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The Canadian II Corps links up with the landing force at
Breskens. House to house fighting continues in Aachen. The 3rd Algerian
Division reaches Cornimont in the southeast sector of the front.

Eastern Front - The Russian armies and Tito's partisans converge on
Yugoslavia. The Germans are forced to evacuate Nish, further south.

Italian Front - The South African 6th Armoured Division enters Grizzana. The
91st Division is advancing in the Livergnano sector, taking Querceto. The 78th
Division continues its attack towards Monte La Pieve. The V Corps occupies the
hills to the east of the river Savio. The Polish 2nd Division enters Sant
Angelo.

Greece - Athens and Piraeus are completely liberated. There are additional
landings on Corfu.

Germany - Field-Marshal Erwin Rommel, under suspicion of having been involved
in the attempt on Hitler's life, is ordered by Hitler himself to take his own
life. Rommel is given the choice of going before the People's Court or suicide
by poison. Rommel chooses the second alternative. At Hitler' wish Rommel is
given a state funeral, to avoid ugly rumours which would have a demoralizing
effect on the people.

Pacific - The III Amphibious Force sails from Manus Island for the invasion of
Leyte in the Philippines.

Formosa - TF 38 continues its attacks against Formosa.

Peleliu - The 81st Division replaces the Marines attacking the Japanese
positions on Mount Umurbrogol.

Angaur - The occupation of Angaur is declared complete, even though Japanese
resistance still exists in the northwest portion of the island.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "Facts On File Yearbook 1944,
Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.netcom.com in directory /pub/jbd and can
be accessed via the WWW by URL: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/jbd/ww2.html. If you
have difficulty accessing the Netcom FTP server, please keep trying because it
stays very busy.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis     [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 07:13:58 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: Regia Marina, Part 2

Hello, Steve and Ludwig!

I would second Ludwig's comment that it was the attack on Tarranto
that the Japanese studied most closely in planning the PH attack. I
would also like to add, that the Japanese used wooden fins on those
"Long Lance" torpedoes in the PH attack as the harbor itself was
rather shallow in comparison to that of Tarranto.

    Thanks.

    Terry
> AFAIK, there was also a sort of "gun club" in the Japanese navy that did
> not believe in the supremacy of carrier based aircraft.
> It was the attack on Tarent which motivated the Japanese to develop the
> torpedo they used on Pearl Harbour.
>
> Ludwig
>
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Steven E. Pudlo  - [email-masked] |"Life may be a drag BUT
> > STC Programmer/Analyst - (203) 885-2343  |  it sure beats the only
> > Three Rivers Community-Technical College |           known alternative"
> > 574 New London Turnpike                  |                     (S.E.P.)
> > Norwich, CT. U.S.A. 06360                |No one gets out of it alive..
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 08:22:33 EST
From:    Aldo Hubert <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: FDR'S HEALTH

Hello All,

I was just curious if it was general knowledge at the time that he
(FDR) could not walk by himself; I always thought that most knew of
his  affliction, but not the extremity of it (i.e. he could not
walk), and in not disclosing his inability to walk, the Press was
most civil.

Thanks in Advance

Aldo Hubert

[email-masked]

Aldo M. Hubert
University of North Carolina at Greensboro
Greensboro NC 27412

OBESA CANTAVIT

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 05:10:10 -0700
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: FDR'S HEALTH

> not worshipped. I don't think that there has been a finer president in our
> time, certainly not in my time. He gave hope and a bright outlook to many in
> the depths of the depression, and as a leader of the free work, he was
> unparalleled. Please forgive this outburst, but the man deserves it. Ben Frank

I agree completely. I would hate to think what would have happened to
this country if we hadn't had FDR. And I don't see anything wrong with
saying he was a great (but often overlooked) President.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis     [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 07:45:30 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Invasion of Crete -- Operation Merkur

Hello, Emery and others!

Here goes with some more info on the Crete operation.

The volume of firing increased. Soon it would be dark and this was
obviously their last attack to try to break the New Zealand line
before the lack of light affected the movement of their troops.
Hurriedly Kippenberger tried to bolster his sagging line. But the
sheer weight of German numbers carried them through and into his
headquarters at Galatos.

But Kippenberger was not prepared to give up. He rallied 2 companies
of infantry and prepared to counterattack. Just at that moment, two
light tanks under the command of Lt. Farran of the 3rd Hussars also
came rumbling up. To Kippenberger, they must have appeared as a gift
from the gods. As he wrote later: "The men looked tired, but fit to
fight and resolute. It was no use trying to patch the line any more,
obviously we must hit or everything would crumble away."

He told the two infantry company commanders from the 23rd Battalion
that they would have to retake Galatos with the aid of Farran's two
tanks. Hastily Farran unloaded two of his men who had been wounded
and gave two volunteers a rapid course on their duties in the tanks
and set off at the head of the infantry.

More tomorrow.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 08:46:04 -0400
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: B-26

>Sort of on the fringes of the list.
>Is the B-26 which was used at the beginning of Vietnam and at the Bay of
>Pigs actually the WW-II Maurader or is it really the A-26 Invader(?)?  If
>the designation was changed, when was it changed?
>TIA
>Tim J. Watts
>Valparaiso University
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 08:49:50 -0400
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: B-26

>Sort of on the fringes of the list.
>Is the B-26 which was used at the beginning of Vietnam and at the Bay of
>Pigs actually the WW-II Maurader or is it really the A-26 Invader(?)?  If
>the designation was changed, when was it changed?
>TIA

Sorry for the duplicate posting but if I recall properly, the Invader went
through severeal designation changes from B-26 to A-26 to B-26 and then
back to A-26 again.  One of the more intresting reasons were that the
B-26's were based in Thailand during the Vietnam war.  A treaty or
understanding was developed that stated that no bombers would be based in
Thailand, well in order to comply, the designation of this wonderful
aircraft was simply changed from B-26 to A-26.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 08:49:50 EDT
From:    Alan Wild <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: FDR'S HEALTH

Aldo Hubert <[email-masked]> said:

>I was just curious if it was general knowledge at the time that he
>(FDR) could not walk by himself; I always thought that most knew of
>his  affliction, but not the extremity of it (i.e. he could not
>walk), and in not disclosing his inability to walk, the Press was
>most civil.

The PBS series indicated that it was common knowledge, but that the
media did not bastardize him by portraying him in any demeaningful
light. That was not just an immaturity of the American press corps;
Gen. Sherman had problems with the press during the civil war. He
said, and I paraphrase, "If I shot every newspaperman there'd be
news from Hell by breakfast." Woof

Alan Wild, Sr. Prog/Analyst
ACC - Lippitt - URI
Kingston, RI  02881

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 06:05:23 -0700
From:    Ed Kettler <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: B-26

A-26, usually with solid nose and MGs.

Ed Kettler                                       [email-masked]

On Wed, 12 Oct 1994, Tim J. Watts wrote:

> Sort of on the fringes of the list.
> Is the B-26 which was used at the beginning of Vietnam and at the Bay of
> Pigs actually the WW-II Maurader or is it really the A-26 Invader(?)?  If
> the designation was changed, when was it changed?
> TIA
> Tim J. Watts
> Valparaiso University
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 08:25:57 -0500
From:    "Sidney W. Kitchel" <[email-masked]>
Subject: TECH ETO logistics

        I recently read a very interesting book by A.J. Liebling
entitled _Mollie and Other Stories_. Liebling was a correspondent for
_The New Yorker_ during WWII. He was in North Africa, where he learned
about a unique hero everyone knew as "Mollie", England, and the
Continent. The book is excellent as an account of fighting life
especially of Army Air Corps problems in Africa. It also touches on
Omar Bradley, artillary action, relations with the Free French, and
especially on the liberation of Paris. Unlike most histories, Liebling
let's you see a glimpse of the soldier's day to day slog.

        During D-Day, Liebling was aboard one of the LSIs tasked with
delivering the beachmaster unit to one of the Utah sub-beachheads. His
story about D-Day is different and interesting. The thing that has
intrigued me is the D+n days on the LSI. A lot was going on crossing
the channel and making troops and supplies go over the slender
foothold. I was wondering if any of our list crew could point me at
histories of the logistics in the ETO. I'd like to learn more about
the real meat of the soldier's craft in the context of winning the
victory in Europe.

                                                        --Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel           [email-masked], [email-masked]
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive                             (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA               FAX:  (812) 334-8121

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 09:27:49 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: B(A?) 26

     Date:    Wed, 12 Oct 1994 14:39:27 -0500
     From:    "Tim J. Watts" <[email-masked]>
     Subject: WEAP: B-26

     Sort of on the fringes of the list.
     Is the B-26 which was used at the beginning of Vietnam and at the Bay
     of Pigs actually the WW-II Maurader or is it really the A-26
     Invader(?)?  If the designation was changed, when was it changed?

     TIA
     Tim J. Watts
     Valparaiso University

     Tim,

     Yes, the post-war B26 is actually the WWII A-26 Invader.  When the
     USAF was separated from the Army they dropped the A-ATTACK
     designation, changed the P-PURSUIT to F-FIGHTER, and made other
     absolutely necessary bureaucratic changes.

     Steve New
     [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 09:36:55 -0400
From:    Dan Ford <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Aircraft in Profile

There is a bound set of *Aircraft Profiles* (complete, I assume) at the
Natl Air & Space Museum library. They are excellent. Writers were leading
authorities.

            - Dan      <[email-masked]>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 08:41:58 EST
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: quick help

The size of the Gneisenau and her sister the Scharnhorst varies with
the source you consult.  They were announced as being 26,000 tons at
the time of construction.  Most sources (Breyer, Dulin and Garazke) now
*****************************************************
Brad Coon                     Windows: the operating
[email-masked]          system for people who
[email-masked]    think even a Macintosh
                              is too fast.

Remember, only YOU can prevent political correctness!
******************************************************
put them at 31,000-32,000 tons standard displacement.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 08:47:47 -0500
From:    "Tim J. Watts" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: FDR's Health

Ben-
Your message reminded me of what my mother (an adult during the Depression
and WW II) thought of FDR.  Well aware of his polio (and happily married
for 55 years), she always thought of him as a "big, good-looking man".  For
those of us who came along after FDR, I don't think we appreciate just how
much many Americans really *LIKED* FDR.
Tim J. Watts
Valparaiso University

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 11:40:34 -0400
From:    Tom Shirhall <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: FDR's Health

Another feature which you young 'uns can't appreciate is the fact that FDR
communicated with the American people by RADIO! We weren't saturated by
visuals. Public figures were only seen in magazines and newspaper
photographs and in newsreels. To get some appreciation of his influence, you
must listen to his speeches, his _fireside chats_. He was a master of
rhetoric, and, somehow, he was a friend.

Tom Shirhall
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 10:22:39 EDT
From:    Doug McCabe <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: How Many Bridges Too Far?

                   Ohio University Electronic Communication

   Date:  13-Oct-1994 10:22am EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"[email-masked]" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject:  Re: How Many Bridges Too Far?

    A reply to Mick Fauchon's question of 28 Sept. (sorry this took so
    long).
         It depends a bit on how you want to count them just how many
    bridges there were to capture and cross from the start line to Arnhem.
    (Okay guys - get out your maps.)  Most people would say there ten:
    "Joe's" Bridge west of Neerpelt in Belgium; a bridge just south of
    Valkenwaard over the Dommel River; at Eindhoven over the same river; at
    Son over the Wilhelmina Canal; at Best over the same canal; at St.
    Oedenrode over the Dommel; a bridge south of Veghel over the Willems
    Canal; another just to the north over the Aa River; a bridge just north
    of Grave over the Maas River; at Nijmegen over the Waal; and, the
    famous bridge too far at Arnhem over the Neder (Lower) Rhine.
         At Nijmegen and Arnhem there were two bridges: a railroad bridge
    and a highway span.  The railroad bridges would have been just as
    usable if the road bridges were destroyed.
         In actual fact, the 101st AB Div. alone had to capture eleven
    railroad and highway bridges in a 15 mile stretch (four in Eindhoven
    itself).  Added to that, the 82nd was also assigned four railroad
    bridges over the Maas-Waal Canal.
         So, there were eleven for the 101st, seven for the 82nd, and two
    for the British 1st AB Div. for a grand total of 20 bridges.  Granted,
    not all the bridges HAD to be captured but it was imperative that the
    string between "Joe's" Bridge and Arnhem not be broken.  In fact the
    bridge near Son was blown by the Germans on 17 September.
         Two other bridges were dropped, but after the MARKET-GARDEN
    operation.  The Nijmegen railroad bridge lost a span to German frogmen
    who attached a sunken mine to it.  (They tried to get the highway
    bridge but failed.)  In the spring of 1945 the Germans destroyed the
    highway bridge at Arnhem to delay the Allies' final advance into
    Germany.
         By the end of MARKET-GARDEN all the bridges or crossings but one
    were captured.  In every case the bridges were taken by airborne troops
    (as they were assigned to do).  The one bridge (or two if you count the
    railroad bridge) not captured was the one at Arnhem which was, however,
    blocked by Frost's men for three and one half days.  Therefore, all
    American Airborne assignments were completed successfully and the
    British Airborne assignments were complete failures.
         Now before a flame war gets started because of my last statement
    let me attempt to set some qualifications.  The British AB failure at
    Arnhem was the fault of British ground forces taking too long to get up
    the corridor (if you accept that the operation had merit) or because
    it was a case of too little too far (if you think the operation should
    have never been tried).  The 1st AB actually did more than half it was
    assigned to do, for three times the length of time it was told to hold,
    and was destroyed in the effort.
         Ultimately, the whole operation was a failure because without
    Arnhem and beyond Montgomery had grabbed at an early victory and got
    nothing but air.  The British forces in eastern Holland were frozen in
    their positions for over six months.  And what of the Dutch, most of
    whom were not liberated?  Perhaps the most bitter and deadly time of
    the whole occupation as they had to struggle through the starving
    winter of '44-45.
         ....Oops, just realized I went way beyond trying to answer the
    question.  Well, as Emily LaTilla used to say, "Never mind."

    Doug

Received:  13-Oct-1994 10:22am

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 10:42:03 -0500
From:    Greg Kelley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: Ta-183 (& others)

A good book that covers all these drawing-board aircraft that are
appearing in model form lately--

GERMAN JET GENESIS  by David Masters.  Jane's Publishing Group, 1982.

Contains all the "what-if" designs that never flew.  Artwork on the front
cover makes it worthwhile--depicts British Meteors & Vampires mixing it
up with Junkers Ju287s escorted by Messerschmitt P.1101s, over the
English Channel.

Now if only someone will make a model of the Schriever Flying Disc.....

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 12:02:57 EDT
From:    Richard Kaplan <[email-masked]>
Subject: TAC: RN Torpedo Attacks

Reading the account of the attack on Taranto, and the night fighting methods
employed by the Royal Navy, I was immediately reminded of Japanese tactics at
Savo Island.  The use of darkness as cover, closing in on the enemy, and the
use of flares to illuminate and confuse him prior to torpedo attacks.  The
obvious difference being the use of planes instead of surface ships.

As to the RN favoring the night, and the USN preferring daylight, wouldn't a
contributing  factor besides the speed of the planes involved, be the spaces
covered, and fighting the fleet at sea instead of at anchorage?

                                        Richard Kaplan
                                        Carnegie Library of Pittsburgh

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 12:25:51 -0500
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: quick help

Security and treaty considerations often led to the posting of highly
theoretical displacements for pre-WW2 capital ships.  Also, the stated
displacement and displacement when combat-loaded could vary by several
thousand tons.

Regards

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 11:21:51 -0500
From:    Greg Kelley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: French ports

On Tue, 11 Oct 1994, Mr. Scott Hannon wrote:

> > ...after the breakout from Normandy, German units occupying some major
> >ports were allowed "to wither on the vine," most surrendering only after
> >the cessation of hostilities in 1945. ...which ports and what was done
> >exactly to pin down these German units?
>
> Some fell/surrendered very soon after being cut off (in August or
> early September), but a few held out until the end of the war.
>
> The troops trapped in these ports were garrison troops that didn't
> pose much of threat to the Allied rear areas, so 2nd or 3rd rate
> forces were considered good enough to blockade them. French ex-FFI
> units, newly organizing units, and even a Dutch and Belgian unit or
> two I think.

******************          ***************          *************
Not much of a threat?  Doesn't anyone recall of the exploits of
Kriegsmarine Vize-Admiral Friederich Frisius, comander of the German
garrison at Dunkirk?  He continued launching raids against his besiegers
right up until the end of the war.  What he did to a brigade of Free
Czech troops is referred to in Auphan & Mordal's THE FRENCH NAVY IN WORLD
WAR TWO, and more intimately chronicled in Lewis M. White's
oft-overlooked ON ALL FRONTS: CZECHS & SLOVAKS IN WORLD WAR TWO (East
European Monographs via Columbia University Press, 1992).  Good old
Frisius--finally surrendered on the 9th of May 1945 (yeah, that's right--
AFTER everyone else)

                                      Glad To Be Of Service!

                                      Greg Kelley

                                      Saint Paul Public Library

                                 ( another diehard Frisius fan heard from)>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 08:02:52 -0400
From:    QUACK <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Aircraft in Profile

I have a complete set of individual issues and the color three views are
what made them popular. Original cost was only 35 cents or so...wonder
what each would bring now?
They also had bound volumes and I have one of them. I also bought in the
early 60s books printed in German and Japanese. The Japanese stuff was
printed by Aireview and came in cardboard boxes.
I also have two volumes of Dora Kurfurst und Rote (spelling?) which show
unit markings and campuflage schemes for military planes of WW2.
I could be more specific if asked.
I've also got a Janes from 1942 I believe,(an origianl) that I woudn't mind
selling.

Ron

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 12:30:31 CDT
From:    "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WANT: People to crew PBY

Sorry if this is coming off looking like a shameless plug... It is,
partially... :-)

We have been asked if we can tour our PBY-6A Catalina along with the
Arizona Wing's Heinkel He-111 around southern California and area during
the months of November and December.

In as much as the aircraft is quite new to us, we are short on crews and
especially short on people with the ability to get to and from the
aircraft, wherever it happens to be.

So... in essense... We are looking for people interested in flying with
the PBY to various appearances, run aircraft tours, etc.  We need both
people to just fly along as crew who can run the tours and work the crowd
as well as people with multi-engine experience who can act as a backup
flight engineer (or FE in training...)

The flights, if they happen, will begin the first week of November and go
through December.  It won't be cheap... Crew members must be a member of
the Confederate Air Force (no, this isn't a membership recruitment drive,
but it's a good idea :-), will have to wear an appropriate (not expensive)
uniform and may have to be able to get him- or her-self to the aircraft and
back.

At present, we are attempting to budget in such a way that we can cover
hotel expenses, but meals and transportation are on your own.  Most of our
crews right now will be airline people who can fly on passes...

When the tours are completed, the PBY will return to either Mesa, Arizona
or Midland, Texas for the winter.  In the spring, it will return to home
base in Minnesota where it will tour the midwest.  Next winter may see the
same opportunities arise again.

Requirements also include a real interest in the aircraft (all WWII types),
enough knowledge of the PBY to run tours (training available :-) and a
willingness to take the opportunity to fly onboard a WWII flying boat.

It's rare that we go out and actively seek crews.  Therefore, it's a rare
opportunity to actually be invited to fly on these aircraft.  If anyone has
an interest in the tours and the costs involved, please send me private
email.

The goal of the tour is to raise funds to restore the aircraft to WWII
configuation inside and out.  It's not likely that anyone involved will
financially "break even."  (But then again, I've flown a couple of times
on the B-25, B-24 and B-17... I don't care about money anymore... :-)
All funds that can be kept in the aircraft account will make it more
possible.

(P.S., we just literally yesterday returned with a trailer full of PBY
parts, including radio racks, original seats, original radios, new trailing
edge sections _and_ the correct PBY-6A turret... Whee! :-)

I know return you to your regular discussions...

--
Robert J. Granvin                                    Southern Minnesota Wing
[email-masked]                                       Confederate Air Force

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 14:45:37 -0400
From:    Ron Babuka <[email-masked]>
Subject: TWO QUESTIONS

Howdy - I hope that someone can assist me with these two questions:

1) In addition to the numbers of merchantmen sunk in the North Atlantic,
were there any troopships sunk? If so what were the numbers of lives lost
in troops?

2)  Can anyone recommend any good books on the activities of the
Kriegsmarine outside of the U-boats and major capital ships?  I was
intrested in the activities of the Destroyers and smaller vessels
(Including the E-boats).

TIA
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Babuka
Cornell University
CIT - Information Resources
Ithaca, New York 14850
(607) 254-6492

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 13:58:15 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: BIO:  Wingate

Hello, Cassady!

Here goes with some more info on Orde Wingate. It is a continuation
of the post from yesterday.

In the bedroom corridor, he found the floor-waiter who used to bring
him his meals. He said something to him, thanking him for his
services. The waiter noticed something odd in his behavior, followed
him to the door and waited beside it. Wingate wanted to lock the
door, but feared to increase the waiter's suspicions, so he left the
door half-locked and waited until the man had gone. Then he took out
his pistol and saw that it had not been cleaned in a long time and
was still choked with Ethiopian sand. It was empty and he could not
find the ammunition. (In fact, Akavia had forgotten to pack it when
Wingate left Addis-Ababa.) He put the pistol away and took out a
hunting knife which a friend had given him. He went to the mirror
above the wash basin. He held the knife in his right hand and thrust
it into the left side of his neck. He found the effort of cutting
through greater than he had guessed. He saw he must try again and
suddently remembered that the door was not locked. With the knife
still in his neck, and drenching blood from the wound, he went to the
door, locked it, went back to the mirror, pulled out the knife and
taking it in his left hand, thrust with all his force at the jugular
vein on the right, then fell unconscious to the floor.

He would have died within the hour, but rescue came quickly. In the
next room, Colonel Thornhill was enjoying a siesta. He heard unusual
sounds through the wall. They gave him an idea (though there was no
shout or cry) that something untoward was happening. He decided he
had better look into the it. He gave his reasons afterwards. He said:
"When a feller locks a door, I don't think anything about it and if I
hear a feller fall down, that is his affair, but when I hear a feller
lock a door and then fall down--its time for action." He pulled on
his clothes quickly, went out into the corridor and knocked on the
door. There was no sound that he could hear. He shook the handle and
pushed. He ran to the lift, went down, rushed to the manager and
others and ran back, swept up the corridor, and forced the door
because the key was in. As they burst in, Wingate came back to
partial consciousness. He remembered after that that it seemed to him
that he was dead and in hell.

That is all of this episode. More tomorrow.

All the best.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 14:02:43 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: FDR'S HEALTH

Hello, John!

Given the times, I would agree with that, but if you view FDR's
foreign policy, it was a disaster. The one fault he had was that he
thought he would live forever. He should not have run for a fourth
term.

Thanks for allowing my opinion on this.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 15:26:07 -0500
From:    Mike Yaklich <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: French ports

Also on the topic of German forces holding out in France, while looking up
something else I came across a reference in the World Almanac Book of WW2
to French land, sea, and air operations to clear out German forces still
holding Royan in the southwest corner of France.  These operations, supported
by the old battleship Lorraine, began April 14 and the Germans surrendered
on April 20 1945.  That's all the info they gave.

Regards

Mike Yaklich

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 14:20:30 -0500
From:    Greg Kelley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ROMANIAN VOLUNTEERS OF THE WAFFEN-SS (book title)

Wonder how Mr. Landwehr covers their less than auspicious disbandment due
to "unreliability"?  (Yes, I know--it's embarassing to admit, but THERE's
a book on Rumania during WW2 that I STILL DON'T OWN--gasp..my copy's been
backordered for months & months)

Of course, EVERYONE knows about the Rumanian Volksdeutsche serving in
such formations as the SS PRINZ EUGEN, so I won't ramble on about them.
Ah, Rumanian Volksdeutsche....I always figured, if they were good enough
to be commanded by a Lettow-Vorbeck , they're good enough for me...

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 14:30:01 -0500
From:    Greg Kelley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: U-Boats and The Laconia

A good title on the subject is

THE LACONIA AFFAIR  by Leonce Peillard (Putnam, 1963 & other editions)

covers the entire affair quite nicely (including use of the French
cruiser GLOIRE, from Dakar, for rescue operations)

And lest anyone forget, besides the British civilians, Italian POWs, and
assorted ship's crewmen, LACONIA also had a detachment of Free Polish
troops on board--they served as the guards for the POWs.

za polska!

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 15:25:31 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TWO QUESTIONS

Hello, Ron!

Will try to help!

> 2)  Can anyone recommend any good books on the activities of the
> Kriegsmarine outside of the U-boats and major capital ships?  I was
> intrested in the activities of the Destroyers and smaller vessels
> (Including the E-boats).

     I can recommend the following:

        The History of the German Navy by Erich von der Porten
        Hitler's Naval War by Cajus Bekker
        My Life by Grand Admiral Erich Raeder (Administrative side)
        Under 10 Flags by Captain Bernhard Rogge (deals with auxiliary
                                                 (cruisers)

           Outside this realm dealing with specific operations:

       Operation Sea Lion by Peter Fleming

        That is all that comes to mind, and hope they help.

        Terry
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ron Babuka
> Cornell University
> CIT - Information Resources
> Ithaca, New York 14850
> (607) 254-6492
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 15:29:27 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TWO QUESTIONS

Hello, again, Ron!

I forgot to respond to your first question.

> 1) In addition to the numbers of merchantmen sunk in the North Atlantic,
> were there any troopships sunk? If so what were the numbers of lives lost
> in troops?

    I have read of no Allied troop vessels being sunk in the North
Atlantic. By the time the Allies began transporting troops in
significant numbers to Europe, the sub menace, although still present,
was not a potent one.

    And even then, effective counter measures had already been
employed, i.e. escort carriers, improved sonar, Asdic, etc., and
sailing in convoy reduced this menace considerably.

    Hope this helps.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 15:31:53 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ROMANIAN VOLUNTEERS OF THE WAFFEN-SS (book title)

Hello, Greg!

Interesting post. I have one question.

>
> Of course, EVERYONE knows about the Rumanian Volksdeutsche serving in
> such formations as the SS PRINZ EUGEN, so I won't ramble on about them.
> Ah, Rumanian Volksdeutsche....I always figured, if they were good enough
> to be commanded by a Lettow-Vorbeck , they're good enough for me...

    Are you suggesting here that General Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck
commanded a unit consisting of Rumanians in WWII or WWI? I have read
of von Lettow-Vorbeck's exploits in Africa during WWI and nothing
there was mentioned that he used Rumanians. Now levies were another
matter. Can you please explain?

Terry

>                                           Glad To Be Of Service!
>                                           Greg Kelley
>                                           St. Paul Public Library
>                                           [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 16:11:56 -0500
From:    Greg Kelley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: French ports, Battleship LORRAINE

An obscure bit of historical trivia--

When the battleship LORRAINE, under the Free French ensign, was
supporting Allied landings in southern France, it was opposed by a
battery of German-manned 34cm guns near Toulon.  These guns had been
salvaged from the hulk of the battleship PROVENCE, scuttled by the Vichy
French at Toulon in November 1942 to avoide her falling into German hands.
Yep, you guessed it-- LORRAINE and PROVENCE were sister ships.  Must've
been an interesting artillery duel-- wonder who outranged who?

(Aupan & Mordal's classic, THE FRENCH NAVY IN WORLD WAR TWO)

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 18:51:21 EDT
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: French ports

The book is Jacques Mordal, LES POCHES DE L'ATLANTIQUE, Paris, 1965.
You might also try the "Breakout and Pursuit" volume of the Army
Green Books.

HS

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 19:00:28 EDT
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TWO QUESTIONS

Troop ships were hit in the North Atlantic. The "Four Chaplains" were lost
when the Dorchester went down.

HS

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 19:39:44 EDT
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: FDR'S HEALTH

One more vote for Ben Frank and the man who, whatever his faults,
saved American capitalism. It's off this list, so I'll stop here,
but FDR earned his rep in 1933-34, whatever else followed.

HS

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 17:07:04 -0400
From:    Bonnie Blackwell <[email-masked]>
Subject: <No subject given>

I am interested in getting all information on the Nurnberg Trials.  I
would like for them to be on disk or maybe somewhere to be downloaded.

Thanks ahead for the input.

Bonnie

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 21:11:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 14 OCT 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
SATURDAY, 14 OCTOBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  B-29, Boeing Superfortress
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  C-64, Noorduyn Norseman
  L-5, Stinson Sentinel
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 4 B-25s bomb and strafe buildings at Otomae
Bay, Kurile Islands.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): Transport aircraft fly 200+ sorties,
delivering men and supplies to various points in the CBI. The 165th Liaison
Squadron (Commando), 1st Air Commando Group, moves from Asanol, India to
Tamu, Burma with C-64s and L-5s.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 32 P-51s and P-40s on armed
reconnaissance attack troops, town areas, and river traffic around Samshui,
Mangshih, Kweiping, Hsinganhsien, Konghow and Tajungchiang.

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Twentieth Air Force): 103 Chengtu, China-based B-29s
bomb the Okayama aircraft plant on Formosa; 12 more hit last-resort targets
and targets of opportunity; this is the first Twentieth AF mission during
which 100+ B-29s attack targets and the first of a series of missions against
Formosa in conjunction with the US invasion of Leyte Island, Philippine
Islands.

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 2 missions are flown.
  Mission 676: 211 bombers and 258 fighters make GH attacks on 2 targets in
Germany: 1 fighter is lost:
  1. 90 of 94 B-17s hit a marshalling yard at Saarbrucken; 8 B-17s are
damaged. Escort is provided by 105 of 107 P-51s; 1 P-51 is damaged beyond
repair.
  2. 117 of 117 B-24s hit Kaiserslautern; 8 B-24s are damaged. Escort is
provided by 148 of 151 P-51s; 1 P-51 is lost (pilot MIA).
  Mission 677: 1,040 bombers and 491 fighters are dispatched to make PFF
attacks on Cologne, Germany; 5 bombers are lost:
  1. 434 B-17s are dispatched to hit the Gereon marshalling yard (326); 1
hits a target of opportunity; 2 B-17s are lost and 93 damaged; 3 airmen are
WIA and 20 MIA. Escort is provided by 141 of 153 P-51s; 1 P-51 is damaged
beyond repair.
  2. 318 B-24s are dispatched to hit the Gremberg (127) and Eifelter (121)
marshalling yards; 9 others hit Euskirchen; 3 B-24s are lost, 1 damaged
beyond repair and 137 damaged; 1 airman is KIA, 2 WIA and 20 MIA. Escort is
provided by 177 of 184 P-47s and P-51s without loss.
  3. 314 of 379 B-17s hit the secondary target, the Gereon marshalling yard;
1 other hits a target of opportunity; 2 B-17s are damaged beyond repair and
123 damaged; 1 airman is KIA and 3 WIA. Escort is provided by 151 of 154
P-47s and P-51s without loss.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Bad weather grounds the A-20s and
B-26s; fighters escort a leaflet mission, fly sweeps and rail cutting
operations, armed reconnaissance over E France and W Germany, and support the
US Third Army.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 317 B-17s and B-24s hampered by
bad weather, bomb oil refineries at Blechhammer and Odertal, Germany, and
several targets of opportunity including marshalling yards at Bratislava and
Nove Zamky, Czechoslovakia, and in Hungary, Komarom and the Nove Zamky
railroad bridges, Borzavar industrial area, and Ugod military garrison;
escorting fighters strafe airfields, rail and road traffic and other targets
of opportunity in the target areas; 52 B-24s bomb a railroad bridge and
marshalling yard at Maribor, Yugoslavia; 54 P-51s on a strafing mission in
the Balaton Lake area of Hungary attack airfields at Szekesfehervar and
Seregelyes; 55 P-38s escort Mediterranean Allied Tactical Air Force (MATAF)
C-47s carrying airborne forces to Megara Airfield, Greece.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, bad weather cancels all
medium bomber operations; 100+ fighters and fighter-bombers pound troop
concentrations, gun positions, supplies, bridges, roads, and rail lines S, of
Bologna where hard fighting is taking place in the Monterumici, Livergnano,
and Gesso ridge areas.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 3 B-24s on armed reconnaissance from Saipan
Island bomb Marcus Island. P-47s on a sweep over Pagan Island bomb and strafe
storage caves. 1 B-24 from the Marshall Islands bombs Wake Island during the
night of 14/15 Oct. HQ 41st Bombardment Group (Medium) and the 48th, 396th
and 820th Bombardment Squadrons (Medium) move from Makin Island to Wheeler
Field, Hawaii with B-25s.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: B-24s again bomb
oil refineries and associated industries in the Balikpapan, Borneo area;
others bomb Pombelaa mine on Celebes Island. A-20s, B-25s, and fighter-
bombers again hit Laha Airfield on Ambon Island and Haroekoe Airfield on
Haroekoe Island. In New Guinea, HQ 374th Troop Carrier Group and the 21st
Troop Carrier Squadron move from Nadzab to Biak Island with C-47s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

14/0114Z OCT

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 21:15:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: FDR'S HEALTH

 Ben Frank writes:

 >FDR's polio was not a well-kept secret. As a matter of fact, each year on his
 >birthday, an organization whose name escapes me right now, but was dedicated to
 >supporting research on infantile paralysis, would celebrate his birthday.

The March of Dimes?

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 21:22:34 EDT
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Research

Dear Dave,

  How much is missing? More than a lot. Until the last five years nobody
other than John Erickson used the thousands of volumes of Soviet military
history. David Glantz and Steve Zaloga, among others have begun to correct
that, and we now have translations of official and formerly secret Soviet
Army studies from Frank Cass Publishers. The 90+ volumes from the History       Office of the Japanese Defense Ministry have only seen very limited
translation- chiefly diplomatic sections- in James Morley's books.
There are at least hundreds of German monographs that haven't appeared
in English, although the massive and definitive multi-volume DAS DEUTSCHE
REICH UND DER ZWEITE WELTKRIEG is being done (by Cambridge UP?), unfortunately
at about $100 per volume and with vastly reduced maps and appendices,
from what I've heard. But at least it may put to rest the reliance on           Paul Carrell and that ilk.                                                        Every country that had a role in the war has a local-language literature,     some of it superb, and you never know what will turn up where. A fascinating
social history of a Soviet rifle division (the 36th) first appeared in
Israel, in Hebrew! It's now in English.
  Please try some more Russian. You don't need fluency to learn things,
and military Russian is fairly direct, if often ungrammatical. Mine is
lousy, but I still can make my way with some common sense and a background
knowledge of the subject. In lieu of that, try exploiting the English
language stuff that nobody bothers to find. Like the incredible series
of histories that were done for MacArthur's HQ by Japanese officers
in 1946-54. They're only in mimeograph form (there are 180+ of them),
and somebody should talk the Center for Military History into publishing
them. If you get east, check the National Archives. You'll be in shock
at what is there, unused, in a language we all have.

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 21:27:39 EDT
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: "Dambusters" and German Electric Capacity

Dear Mike,

Thanks for the references.

HS

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 21:29:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: FDR's Health

Tom Shirhall writes:

 >Another feature which you young 'uns can't appreciate is the fact that FDR
 >communicated with the American people by RADIO! We weren't saturated by
 >visuals. Public figures were only seen in magazines and newspaper
 >photographs and in newsreels. To get some appreciation of his influence, you
 >must listen to his speeches, his _fireside chats_. He was a master of
 >rhetoric, and, somehow, he was a friend.

I have lived under 11 Presidents and I still say that FDR was the
best speaker of the bunch.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 13 Oct 1994 21:33:42 EDT
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: FDR'S HEALTH

Sister Kenny Foundation?

HS

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 12 Oct 1994 to 13 Oct 1994
*************************************************