Subject: WWII-L Digest - 30 Oct 1994 to 31 Oct 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 00:00:09 -0500

There are 48 messages totalling 2198 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. HIST: ORAL HISTORY
  2. GEN: PEARL HARBOR
  3. INF: USN Chronology 10-31-94
  4. Home: US: Illinois at war (2)
  5. INF: 50 Years Ago - 01-NOV-1944 (3)
  6. Question
  7. Tactics:the quality of arms and armies (2)
  8. INF: USN Chronology 10-30-94
  9. ME163 (2)
 10. fighter pilots (4)
 11. HYPO: The "Big" what- (3)
 12. Untold Stories f/ABTF, Pt. 13
 13. NOST/GEN: wedding results
 14. BOOKS on the Pacific
 15. Hollywood in World War 2
 16. Hollywood in World War2 (2)
 17. WEAP:  CVE-73  USS Gambier Bay
 18. Hollywood in Uniform in World War2
 19. WEAP: P-38 in MTO
 20. Rumanian Army & other Balkans Forces
 21. WEAP: 49,000 Lb Bomb (2)
 22. Hungarian Army (paratroops & all)
 23. THIRD REICH GENERAL GRADE OFFICERS (2)
 24. Hisler successor (3)
 25. GEN: DO VETERANS WANT TO TALK ABOUT THEIR EXPERIENCES?
 26. HIST: Veterans Day
 27. Battle of Britain bibliography
 28. Writing a book:-want to see?
 29. Returned mail: Insufficient permission
 30. [INF] USAAF 1 NOV 44
 31. QUESTION
 32. BOOKS ON THE PACIFIC
 33. Worst type of service - was Re: fighter pilots

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Oct 1994 00:05:09 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: HIST: ORAL HISTORY

The address is: Marine Corps Historical Center, Bldg 58, Washington Navy Yard,
901 M Street, SE, Washington, DC 20374. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 30 Oct 1994 21:42:07 -1000
From:    Jim Adams <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: PEARL HARBOR

John Ausland,

You asked about why no Japanese subtitles for the movie at the memorial.
We would have to also do that for all of the other foreign languages
which would be too much on the movie screen.  As  a side note, most of
the Asian visitors we have at the memorial are not Japanese (although
there are lots).  But there is a very heavy  Asian tourist population
from Tawain and the other Asian countries.  Some days it is interesting
to watch the anti-Japanese comments made about the Chinese, etc., people
that were our allies in world war II.

What we are doing though, and hope to have ready by this December (?) is
an audio cassette self guided tour of the museum, the movie dialog, boat
tour, and memorial visit available for rent.  This will be in a variety
of languages.  It will also be good for the english speakers, as do to
budget cuts  and personnel cut backs, we do not get to put a ranger on
every boat any more to provide a narration.  Not to get into politics,
but the federal government must think it is saving lots of money by
cutting out some of our GS-5 seasonals (what the heck, they needed to get
food stamps also to survive on the Hawaii cost of living).

The message traffic that I referred to that my father sent was routine
traffic.  He was on a teletype that connected to all the installations on
the island and was redirected to ships also.  It was the Commandant 14th
Naval District net.  He was sending messages back and forth about what
was happening, etc.  Saw several messages with things like, "are you
still there?" and reply, "yes, for now."  Some of it was traffic from the
officer of the deck at the district headquarters that he would give to
the signalmen on the tower to send to ships with their flags or signal
lights.  There was one set of messages to the California when they could
not get through on the radio, so it was directed by light and teletype.
Most of the traffic was regarding movement of ships in the harbor and
such as that.

I'll right more details about his experiences later (it is getting late
now).  I am fortunate in that he was a writer, so he kept detailed notes
that I now have.

In preparation for the Dec 7th ceremonies, we are busy getting ready, so
I'll update more as we go one and entice some of you to maybe return.  We
are trying to add new exhibits and rotate a lot of material that has been
in the back.

****************************************************************************
Jim Adams                       [email-masked]
Cultural Resource Manager
USS Arizona Memorial, NPS       (808) 422-2771  extension 130
1 Arizona Memorial Place
Honolulu, Hawaii 96818
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Oct 1994 04:00:17 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 10-31-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
10/31 Tue.  Japanese naval vessel sunk:
             District craft KAIYO NO. 6, by submarine GABILAN
              (SS-252) off Shikoku, Japan,
              32 d. 50  N., 134 d. 21'E.

Information compiled by U.S. Navy Historians.  For more information,
contact the Naval Historical Center at (202) 433-3940.
Archived by: Larry Jewell <[email-masked]>
Posted by:
Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Oct 1994 12:07:00 +0100
From:    Peter de Lange <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Home: US: Illinois at war

>
>     That is true. There were even wooden tires designed to be used as
> rubber was in such short supply.
>
Hello Terry,
            my mother had wooden tires on her bicycle and I had to
sit in the backseat, a terrible noise.
Peter de Lange

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Oct 1994 04:36:29 -0800
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 01-NOV-1944

On 01-NOV-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - The battle for Walcheren begins. The Canadian 4th Brigade and
a brigade from the 52nd Division cross the estuary onto the south coast near
Flushing. Much of the planned air support has to be cancelled because of bad
weather. Some units advance along the coast to the northeast, others move off
southeast towards Flushing. In the US 3rd Army sector, the 5th Division
re-occupies the Arnaville bridgehead. The XII Corps carries out limited
attacks with units of the 8th Division to cross the Seille, capturing
Letricourt and Abacourt.

Eastern Front - The 3rd Ukraine Front completes the capture of Kecskemet.

Italian Front - The 10th Indian Division crosses the Rabbi bear Collina,
taking Gusignano.

Philippines (Leyte) - Japanese reinforcements and supplies land at Ormoc.

The Homefront
-------------
Combat Planes - The Army Air Force now has about 74,500 aircraft. Of these
about 12,000 are combat planes at overseas fronts.

Book Not Obscene - In a Special Sessions Court in New York, Justices Nathan
Perlman and George DeLucca rule that the novel "The First Lady Chatterly" by
D.H. Lawrence is not obscene.

Treasures Out Of Hiding - The New York Public Library reveals the return from
a wartime hideout in Saratoga Springs, N.Y. of 27,000 of its most valuable
books, prints and manuscripts.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "Facts On File Yearbook 1944,
Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.netcom.com in directory /pub/jbd and can
be accessed via the WWW by URL: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/jbd/ww2.html. If you
have difficulty accessing the Netcom FTP server, please keep trying because it
stays very busy.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis     [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Oct 1994 07:44:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Question

I picked the following up from the soc.history.war.misc USENET
newsgroup.  Does anyone wish to respond to this young man?

Jack McKillop

From: [email-masked] (Thomas J Helferty)
Subject: Student report on Veteran's Day
Date: 30 Oct 1994 20:10:14 -0500
Organization: Drexel University

I'm doing a report for school on Veteran's Day.  If you could be
of any assistance to me, please answer the following questions.
The due date for this report is Nov 3, so I appreciate your
prompt responses.
Please include your name, state, branch of service, rank, and which
war you were involved with. Thank you very much for your help.

1.      Do you feel that Veteran's Day honors our veteran's properly?
If not, what would you think is appropriate?

2.      What other types of honors do you deserve that you are not now getting?

3.      Pertaining to whichever war you were in, did it end the way you feel
it should have?

4.      Do you think the date of Veteran's Day should be changed?
If so, to what date?

5.      Do you feel that one day a year is enough to commemorate the
veteran's of this country?

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 30 Oct 1994 01:33:20 GMT+1
From:    SYSTEM 0PERATOR <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Tactics:the quality of arms and armies

Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]> writes:
> It is also this performance that goes to the heart of my criticism of the
> Wehrmacht. Either the German leadership did not understand the nature of
> modern industrial war, or they thought they could ignore its lessons,
> perhaps by developing a "lightning war" that could defeat an opponent
> before it could mobilize. This may work against small states, but great
> powers have to be worn down, and this means protracted war. It was
> precisely this kind of war that the Wehrmacht was not prepared to fight.
> A great army operationally, but at best a good army overall that took
> on two great ones (the US and Soviet Armies of 1943-1945.)

Do "great powers have to be worn down by protracted wars" ? Well the heart of
the Blitzkrieg theory is to bargain that the answer is "no".
France was arguably a great power, with a large empire and very important
resources, and was knocked out.
Britain would undoubtedly have been overrun had she not been protected
by her sea-ditch. This makes two great powers.
Russia would possibly have fallen had she not had Winter to succour her at
the darkest hour, or had the Wehrmacht been on tracks. This makes a
possible three (Many historians also agree that Russia could be conquered
from within).

Therefore I would tend to doubt the condemnation of Blitzkrieg as only
appropriate for small opponents. I would rather say, "appropriate if terrain
allows it and you have an army prepared for blitzkrieg".
And historians agree with you, Henry, that Germany was verrrry unprepared.

Arnaud.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 30 Oct 1994 02:29:53 GMT+1
From:    SYSTEM 0PERATOR <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: USN Chronology 10-30-94

"Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]> writes:

> UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
>              Light carrier BELLEAU WOOD (CVL-24), by suicide
>               plant

Really ? Never heard of that. Those Japs were really devilish.

:-)
Arnaud.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Oct 1994 08:30:50 EST
From:    William Lippert <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: 50 Years Ago - 01-NOV-1944

On Mon, 31 Oct 1994 04:36:29 -0800 John Davis said:
>On 01-NOV-1944, the following occurred -
>
>World War II - The Battlefronts
>
>The Homefront
>-------------
>Combat Planes - The Army Air Force now has about 74,500 aircraft. Of these
>about 12,000 are combat planes at overseas fronts.
>
>
>=============================================================================
>John Davis     [email-masked]
>Cary, N.C.
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    What were the other 62,500 planes doing?  Were there that many transport
planes (I assume these are excluded from the combat category).

William Lippert
The American University

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Oct 1994 07:45:08 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ME163

Hello, Drew!

Here goes with some more titles.

            Pacific War

             Paperbacks

1. Escape from Corregidor by Edgar Whitcomb
2. Island Victory by S.L.A. Marshall
3. Give us this Day by Dudley Stewart (a personal memoir of the
Bataan death march, and it is powerful)
4. Guadalcanal Diary by Richard Tregaskis
5. Wake Island Command by Commander W. Scott Cunningham (the CO of
Wake)
6. PT Patrol by Edward C. Farley
7. Dick Bong-Ace of Aces by General George C. Kenney
8. Wake of the Wahoo by Forest J. Sterling
9. War Fish by Georg Grider
10. The Bomb by Ferdinand Gigon
11. 70,000 to 1 by Quentin Reynolds
12. War Under the Waves by Fred Warshovsky
13. Behind Enemy Lines by James Dean Sanderson
14. The Life and Death of a Japanese General by John Deane Potter
(about General Yamashita)
15. The Silent Service by William C. Chambliss
16. Submarine by Captain Edward L. Beach, USN
17. The Hero Iwo Jima by William Bradford Huie
18. Iwo Jima by Richard F. Newcombe
19. The Flying Tigers by Russell F. Whelan
20. Battles Lost and Won by Hanson W. Baldwin
21. Japanese Destroyer Captain by Captain Tameichi Hara
22. Sittang: The Last Battle by Louis Allen
23. The Kaiten Weapon by Yutaka Yakota
24. The Coast Watchers by Commander Eric Feldt, RAN
25. Samurai by Saburo Sakai
26. Japan's Longest Day by The Pacific Research Society
27. A Torch to the Enemy by Martin Caidin (about the Tokyo firebomb
raid of March 10, 1945)
28. The United States Navy in World War II by S. E. Smith
29. Aircraft Carrier by J. Bryan III
30. The Battle for Leyte Gulf by C. Vann Woodward
31. Midway by Mitsuo Fuchida and Masataka Okumiya
32. Zero by Martin Caidin and Saburo Sakai
33. God is My Co-Pilot by Robert L. Scott
34. Kamikaze by Yasuo Kuwahara and Gordon Allred
35. The 1000 Mile War by Brian Garfield
36. The Fork-Tailed Devil: The P-38 by Martin Caidin
37. The Battle for Guadalcanal by Brigadier-General Samuel B.
Griffith, USMC
38. The Two-Ocean War by Admiral Samuel E. Morrison
39. The Ragged Rugged Warriors by Martin Caidin
40. Midway by A. J. Barker
41. Queen of the Flattops by Stanley Johnston
42. Helmet for My Pillow by Robert Leckie
43. Hiroshima by John Hersey
44. Marine: The Life of Chesty Puller by Burke Davis
45. Tin Cans by Theodor Roscoe
46. The Divine Wind by Captain Rikkehei Inoguchi, Tadashi Nakajima
and Roger Pineau
47. No High Ground by Fletcher Knebel and Charles W. Bailey II (about
the A-Bomb)
48. Day of Infamy by Walter Lord
49. Savo by Richard F. Newcombe
50. Through the Valley of the Kwai by Ernest Gordon (A personal
memoir)
51. 13 Against the Rising Sun by Stanley E. Smith
52. Climax at Midway by Thaddeus Tuleja
53. PT-109 by Robert J. Donovan
54. Here is Your War by Ernie Pyle
55. Incredible Victory by Walter Lord
56. Fighting Ships by Arch Whitehouse
57. Singapore by James Leasor
58. Baa Baa Black Sheep by Gregory Boyington
59. The Rise and Fall of the Japanese Empire by Mary Gordon
60. They Fought under the Sea by Editors of Navy Times
61. Coral and Brass by General Holland M. Smith, USMC
62. McCampbell's Heroes by Edwin P. Hoyt
63. Battleship at War by Ivan Musicant (about the Washington)
64. Stillwell and the American Experience in China by Barbara Tuchmann
65. Pig Boats by Theodor Roscoe
66. Strong Men Armed by Robert Leckie
67. I Could Never Be so Lucky Again by General James H. Doolittle
68. Japan's Imperial Conspiracy by David Bergamini
69. Enola Gay by Gordon Thomas
70. Marine Raiders by Edwin P. Hoyt
71. Top Guns by Joe Foss and Matthew Brennan
72. Subs and Submarines by Arch Whitehouse
73. Combat: The War with Japan by Don Congdon
74. The Big E by Cdr. Edward P. Stafford, USN
75. Dauntless Heldivers by Harold Buell
76. I-Boat Captain by Zenji Orita and Joseph Harrington
77. The Untold Story of Douglas MacArthur by Frazier Hunt
78. Death of the Battleship by Richard Hough
79. The U S Navy in Action by John Clagett
80. Pass the Ammunition by Stan Smith
81. Pearl Harbor:The Verdict of History by Gordon W. Prange
82. Yammamoto by John Deane Potter
83. Divine Thunder by Bernhard Millot
84. Blue Skies and Blood: The Battle of the Coral Sea by Edwin P. Hoyt
85. The Battle of Leyte Gulf by Edwin P. Hoyt
86. Target Tokyo by James M. Merrill
87. Walkout with Stillwell in Burma by Frank Dorn
88. The Battle of Midway by Ira Peck
89. Shinano: The Sinking of Japan's Secret Supership by Captain
Joseph Enright, USN with James Ryan
90. Okinawa: Touchstone to Victory by Benis M. Frank (our own)

More later. Hope this has been of interest.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Oct 1994 07:57:05 -0600
From:    Drew Halevy <[email-masked]>
Subject: fighter pilots

I was watching SeaWings on friday and they were talking about Avengers
and Hellcats, and showed them flying (and landing) on the pitching deck
of small (and I mean small) escort carriers. During the show, they had an
interview with George Bush, talking about his experiences during the war.
My wife was sort of watching this with me, I turned to her and made the
comment that is strange that during the 1992 campaign (NOTE: I am not
trying to make a political observation, only a historical one) that is
was strange that people called Bush a wimp considering that he had flown
bombers off a carrier in WWII. The question then arises, what was
considered the most dangerous job in WWII (ie-the most risks) I ask this
mainly of the vets of the war (or any war). When you were on the ground
(or in the air) were there jobs you would look at and say-"that takes a
certian kind of person to do" (NOTE": I realize that being anywhere in a
war is dangerous, but landing every day on a carrier is frought with more
risk than landing on an airfield for instance)-Thanks in advance-Drew

Drew Philip Halevy      |  Well we're waiting here in Allentown
Grad Student            |  For the Pennsylvania we never found
Department of History   |  For the promises our teachers gave
University of Arkansas  |  If we worked hard
[email-masked]   |  If we behaved-            Billy Joel

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Oct 1994 05:56:00 -0800
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: 50 Years Ago - 01-NOV-1944

> >The Homefront
> >-------------
> >Combat Planes - The Army Air Force now has about 74,500 aircraft. Of these
> >about 12,000 are combat planes at overseas fronts.
>
>     What were the other 62,500 planes doing?  Were there that many transport
> planes (I assume these are excluded from the combat category).

Unfortunately, my source didn't mention. I assume they were transports,
training planes, surplus, etc. This blurb came from "Facts On File" which
was a contemporary source.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis     [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Oct 1994 13:58:03 GMT+1
From:    SYSTEM 0PERATOR <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HYPO: The "Big" what-

David Rising <[email-masked]> writes:

> On Mon, 31 Oct 1994, Emmanuel Gustin wrote:
> -lots deleted-
>
> > You can't
> > blame Hitler alone for the final defeat of the Wehrmacht, but he was
> > certainly a major contributor. After all, he was the primary responsible
> > for the disasters at Stalingrad, Tunis and Falaise.
>
> Let's not forget Dunkirk!

Let's not forget Korsun ! Kurland ! Sebastopol ! The mighty disaster on the
Vistula! All consequences of Hitler's stand-fast orders.

Four authors I've read agree that Hitler saved the Army from a rout
in Dec '41. One disagrees completely. Make your choice. It's still a matter
of (educated) debate.

On this subject Albert Seaton writes : "Whether Hitler was right or wrong in
insisting on rigid defence, the Nazi Party propaganda machine and organization
 soon saw to it that the German Army and public firmly believed that the
Fuhrer was the saviour of the Army. This in itself did great permanent
damage to the German war direction. Hitler was even more convinced of his own
 military genius and became certain that any crisis could be weathered by
will-power and rigidity...This was one of the main factors which subsequently
brought such heavy defeats to Germans arms at Stalingrad and in the Ukraine,
in the Crimea and in the baltic, in Africa, and in France".

Arnaud.

"This little matter of operational command is something that anyone can do"
 - Hitler to Halder

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Oct 1994 09:05:51 EST
From:    Doug McCabe <[email-masked]>
Subject: Untold Stories f/ABTF, Pt. 13

                   Ohio University Electronic Communication

   Date:  19-Oct-1994 04:47pm EST

     To:  Remote Addressee                     ( _MX%"[email-masked]" )

   From:  Doug McCabe                                Dept:  Library
          MCCABE                                   Tel No:  (614) 593-2715

Subject:  Untold Stories f/ABTF, Pt. 13

    [This time I'll combine the tragedy and humor stories.]

         "Just south of Kranenberg we were going rather slowly and
    witnessed a shocking spectacle.  Two Dutch partisans or resistance
    fighters wearing armbands were standing in front of a RAD commander.  I
    saw it all.  The RAD commander took out his pistol and shot the two
    unarmed Dutchmen in cold blood.  I felt sick but we continued on.  I
    shall never forget it.  The Dutchmen were young, very young.  Both men
    fell dead in the roadway."
              - Navy cadet Herbert Stelzenmuller, Med. Asst., German Army

         "Outside Groesbeek I found a jar of dill pickles in a house so I
    took them and sat down at a table outside in back of the house.  I
    couldn't get the jar open so I leaned back and an 88 aerial burst
    exploded about 20 feet above.  A piece of shrapnel came down and went
    through the cover of the jar, through the pickles, through the table
    and down between my feet into the ground about four inches.  We ate
    what was left of the pickles."
                                       - PFC Russell Fischer, 82nd AB Div.

         "Capt. Stefanich and I were standing shoulder to shoulder looking
    down towards the valley and open field near Grafwegen.  The C Company
    troopers were firing and the Germans were running away from us.  It
    looked like a line of hunters in a rabbit drive.  All of a sudden, one
    lone German soldier turned around and fired one shot in our direction.
    The bullet struck 'Stef' near the heart and he fell at my feet.  Two
    troopers nearby saw the action and immediately zeroed in on the German
    and killed him.
         Before he went into shock he told me, 'Jack, take care of my
    troopers and the company; we've come a long way together and you are
    the best friend and officer I know.  Give my love to my family and tell
    them I did my best.  Tell Mary Ann I love her.'  He feebly squeezed my
    hand, smiled and went limp."
                                  - 1st Lt. Jack Tallerday, 82nd AB Div.

         "Within 15 minutes after we dropped in Holland, a P-47 fighter
    plane was hit by anti-aircraft fire and was smoking.  The plane, when I
    first saw it, was approximately 1,500 to 2,000 feet up and I expected
    at any time to see the pilot bail out.  But instead, he brought the
    plane down in the field with a bitter landing and the plane skidded for
    about 200 to 300 yards.  It finally broke in front of the cockpit and
    behind, until there were three pieces, and the motor was rolling down
    the field by itself.  The only section that stayed intact and did not
    turn over was the wing section where the cockpit was.
         I knew surely that the pilot must be killed, but in a moment I saw
    the canopy slide back and a little tow-headed pilot, with no hat on,
    with a .45 slung under his arm, and wearing a flight suit, jumped out
    of the cockpit and ran toward us.  I said, 'Man, why in the hell didn't
    you jump?'  He said, 'Hell, I was afraid to!'"
                                       - S/Sgt. James Jones, 82nd AB Div.

         "A PFC Chevalo, while dug in along a dike, fastened a red cloth on
    his rifle.  Every time the enemy fired and missed he waved it (Maggie's
    drawers) at them."
                                  - 1st Lt. Edward Maltese, 82nd AB Div.

         "On the day of the jump an American glider landed in soft plowed
    ground.  The drag of the soft ground slowed the glider quickly.  While
    the glider was still moving the nose section flew up and a jeep with
    two men in it shot out and drove away while the nose section closed
    again."
                                       - 1st Lt. Dean Landis, 82nd AB Div.

         "While in a static position in Beek I was taking a bath in a house
    we occupied for about 5 or 6 days.  A screeming meanie hit the house
    and blew half of it apart.  I jumped out of the tub, grabbed the .45
    gun belt and canteen, my jump boots, leaped out of a second floor
    window, and was running for shelter about 200 yards away before I
    realized I had nothing else on."
                                       - Pvt. Robert Murphy, 82hd AB Div.

         "One evening I found and captured a white domestic rabbit which
    became a pet and stayed very close to my foxhole.  On one of Lt. La
    Riviere's visits to my position he noted the rabbit and asked me to
    give it to him so he could make a stew out of it.  Since I had become
    attached to the rabbit as a pet, I refused.  The following night a big
    tomcat strayed into our position and it too was captured.  We then
    decided to skin the cat and had it delivered to Lt. La Riviere with my
    compliments.  He, of course, thought it was the rabbit he asked for and
    proceeded to cook it.  He later commented that he never had eaten
    better rabbit.  It was not until several months later that I corrected
    his misconception."
                                  - 1st Lt. James Megellas, 82nd AB Div.

         "We landed in farm yards.  Some men landed on wooden fences and
    were injured.  One man handed on a cow.  No one was seriously hurt
    except the cow was quite frenzied."
                                       - Maj. Abdallah Zakby, 82nd AB Div.

         "On D+8 or 9 we moved out towards the German-Holland border and
    set up an aid station in a house of a German sympathizer known as
    Tannhouser.  He had a safe in his house and in accordance with the
    Division orders on looting it proved to be a temptation.  After much
    deliberation and because we had a very capable reformed safecracker,
    the safe was opened.  We found several stacks of German marks which
    were equally distributed among the men.  The house was left in the same
    condition as we found it but we did manage to get by with the
    sympathizer's money."
                                       - Maj. Daniel McIlvoy, 82nd AB Div.

         "A shell from a Jerry 88 had hit this bakery and we were fixing a
    broken wire when another shell landed right in the shop.  After we got
    our senses back we found we were covered with Dutch guilders from a
    direct hit on the bakery safe."
                                       - Sgt. Lawrence James, 82nd AB Div.

    PERSISTANCE IN RECOVERING YOUR OWN

         "I volunteered to take a patrol in the afternoon.  Five of us
    went.  In this action i lost two men, I was wounded by a grenade, and
    my interpreter was badly wounded and taken prisoner.  My buddy behind
    me was not wounded and he gave me covering fire and helped me back to
    our lines.
         I asked my commanding officer to let me back out there to get my
    men.  As it turned out they put me in a jeep and sent me to a field
    hospital and from there to a hospital back in England.  I returned to
    my unit sometime later.  The first thing I asked was, 'Did you get my
    men back from the dike in Holland?'  My commanding officer told me that
    my unit was relieved by the British right after I was sent to the
    hospital and they did not get my men.  I was given the Silver Star for
    this action, but I could not find out if the other members of my patrol
    were awarded a metal, but I'm sure they deserved one as much as I.
         In 1950, to satisfy my own mind about what i thought happened to
    my men, my wife and I went back to Beek.  We had the necessary papers
    to return and dig in the dike area to try to locate the remains of my
    men.
         Digging for ten hours in the sunken-in foxholes we uncovered the
    remains of the man we were looking for, identified by his boots and
    helmet, and in the same hole the helmet of my interpreter.  We failed
    to find the remians of the man who had been to my far left.  It brought
    back memories of that day very vividly."
                                  - S/Sgt. Russell O'Neal, 82nd AB Div.

    Just one more to go.

    Doug

Received:  31-Oct-1994 09:05am

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Oct 1994 10:22:50 EST
From:    Patrick D Marsden <[email-masked]>
Subject: NOST/GEN: wedding results

I know, this very far off the list again so I'll keep it short.

Thanks to everyone who volunteered ideas for my proposal.  The
response was almost as good as the "big what if" discussion.
This is what I came up with:  We both live outside of D.C. in
Fairfax,VA so Washington seemed like a good place to go.  We first
went to a church service a the National Cathedral in the afternoon
and then went to the Jefferson Memorial.  It was about 6:30 so it was
already dark and there was almost nobody there.  Once inside, after
a little small talk, I asked her if she wanted to go to another
wedding (we've gone to 4 together in the past year).  She asked
whose and I replied, "Yours and mine." and pulled out the ring.  At this
point she screams and starts hyperventelating.  The park ranger came
and stuck his head in to make sure we were alright.  The end result was
she said "yes." And all of you are invited! (sorry, just kidding)

One final note:  Since she has NO interest in WWII, the perfect place
to hide the ring in my apartment, lest she find it, was behind my copy
of _German Tanks of World War II_; she never suspected.

Thanks again everyone.  Now back to your regular programming.

patrick
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Oct 1994 08:38:59 -0800
From:    John Riegsecker <[email-masked]>
Subject: BOOKS on the Pacific

Terry's long post on books on the Pacific prompts me to suggest some others.

1.  Morison, Samuel Eliot, 1887-1976.
    History of United States naval operations in World War II. 15 v.

This also covers the navy in Europe.  Morison did not know that we had
broken the Japanese codes and their are mistakes, but I still think it is
the best starting point.

2.  And I was there, E. Layton (I think I spelled the name right)
Layton was Nimitz's Intelligence officer.  He has some interesting things
to say about Pearl Harbor, Coral Sea, Midway, Kelly Turner, and the role of
code breaking and intelligence in the Pacific.

3.  Little Ship Big War, E. Stafford.
One of my favorite books of all time and I'm not exactly sure why.  I think
it is because it is a true story about a DE and a bunch of Naval Reservists
who didn't want to be there, didn't want to be heroes, did a lot of boring
stuff, and were glad when it was over.  In other words, pretty regular
folks who did what it took to get the job done.  If you're into John Wayne,
you probably won't like this book.

4.  Dower, John W.
    War without mercy : race and power in the Pacific war.

Not the usual stuff we see on this list, but really worthwhile.  An
even-handed (in my opinion) description of racist attitudes of both sides
towards the other side.

5.  With the old Breed, E.B. Sledge

John Riegsecker                                 (206) 756-3566
Dept of Mathematics and Computer Science        [email-masked]
University of Puget Sound

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Oct 1994 09:28:29 -0600
From:    Greg Kelley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hollywood in World War 2

This may already be common knowledge, but film director John Ford
commanded a Navy photographic unit that served in the field, creating
documentaries on The Doolittle Tokyo raid and the Battle of Midway, to
name a few.  Ford was wounded during the Midway operation.

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Oct 1994 16:34:31 +0100
From:    Ludwig Goller <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HYPO: The "Big" what-

On Fri, 28 Oct 1994, Henry Sirotin wrote:

> ...
> We are just beginning to understand what happened on the eastern front.
> One thing seems clear, however. While the Russians did use obliterating
> artillery, they were able to achieve local "steamroller" concentrations
> by outsmarting the Germans. I have not checked the latest figures,
> but there may have been a rough parity in German and Russian troop
> strengths as late as 1944. What the Russians did do was use the
> 600,000 American trucks they received intelligently, together with
> extremely effective deception operations, to shift forces back and
> force, always maintaining the initiative. There were no "Mongol Hordes."
> And if the Wehrmacht had planned its war effort intelligently,
> by 1944 they might have had 600,000 trucks too. And interior lines.
Hmmm. I can see your point, but I think there's still another problem:
Where do you take the fuel for 600.000 trucks? Perhaps you are right with
your theory that a really great power can not be overwhelmed in a
blitzkrieg, but in Germany was not in the position to wage a war of
attrition against the USA or even the USSR.
>
> Call it personal preference, but I find the German performance in
> WWI much more impressive.
That might be true, but look at the different conditions under which the
Germans had to fight in WWI and WWII:
At the beginning of WWI ALL armies depended heaviliy on railroads and
horses for transport. At the end of WWI, the Germans would not have been
able to run as many trucks as the Allies, even if they had had a comparable
number of these. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the lack of
mobile reserves the main cause of the German defeat in their last
offensive in 1918 "Michael"?
In WWII, Germany could simply not afford an army fully motorized with
600.000 trucks AND a substantial number of armored divisions. This number
of vehicles could not be produced by the German industry and I guess, It
would have never been possible to produce the fuel for this army, too.

>
> Sorry about the bandwidth, but if I'm going to take on fifty years
> of mythological encumbrance, I'll ask for a little leeway.
>
> Henry Sirotin
>
Ciao,
Ludwig

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Oct 1994 09:58:12 EST
From:    Cassady Craft <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Tactics:the quality of arms and armies

Henry, in your low evaluation of the Wehrmacht, are you taking into account
the fact that the military was not making very many, if any, of the strategic
decisions?  Of your criticism for lack of strategic thinking, I can only
think that we don't really know, because the German General Staff was not
allowed to make the final decisions.

Even if I am willing to concede that the Germans rolled over some weak armies
(but the Italians were "supposed" to be the terrors of the time!), I still can
not understand the ranking of the British as among the better of the armies.
What examples do we have?  France was a debacle.  Dunquirque was a debacle
only salvaged by Luftwaffe inadequacy.  North Africa was a decent showing
against only 3 German divisions that were inadequately supplied (by no effort
of the army).  The channel raids were not regular infantry.  Norway was not
a particularly good showing, nor was Crete, etc.  AND, the Japanese ruined
the reputation of the British and Commonwealth forces in the Malaysian and
Singapore campaigns.  I can't find reasons to rank the Brits over the Germans
in the least.

Yes, the Russian and American armies in 43-45 for the Rus, and 44-45 for the
US.  But add the Wehrmacht in there also.  How can one deny the combat record
of the Wehrmacht under the circumstances?  i.e. against two undoubtedly great
armies (of two superpowers, who were quantitatively in a whole other league
than any other great power), and agaist also a great power/empire, under
air and naval blockade, fighting on two fronts, not fully mobilized for war
until about two years too late, and with a brilliant, eccentric, mad-man
calling all the shots, sometimes down to the tactical level?  All I am saying
is that it is very difficult to evaluate the Wehrmacht on the strategic level,
especially in the West, particularly because of the role that Hitler played in
making any of the General staff work moot, very often at critical times.

I think it was precisely in the development of the blitzkrieg that the
General Staff shone brightest.  Contrary to your view that they did not
understand modern war or could ignore it, they were shaped by two things:
The experiences of Von Moltke in maneauver (and later the Schleiffen debacle);
and the realization that they could not defeat the powers that would ally
against them in any other way.  Germany knew that it could not defeat France,
Britain, USSR, and USA in a protracted war--they had paid to learn that
lesson in blood.  Blitzkreig allowed them to defeat France, and was the only
way to defeat the Soviets (and came about 20 miles from arguably working).
This seems to me to be the most successful strategy that could have been
adapted, and was highly indicative of an understanding of modern concepts of
war (in fact, we usually refer to the Blitzkrieg as the "father" of modern
war because of its domination by maneauver and armor).  I guess my point is
that for the German leadership to accept that the only way you can win against
the powers is through protracted war would have denied them any opportunity
for political maneauver, at which Hitler was brilliant and determined of.
Besides, with the lightning defeat of France, they prove you wrong.

If they had succeeded in Russia, the Second World War may well have been over;
for the US and Brits would have been facing an autarkic continental power with
which they had very little means with which to grapple (and one could question
thier desire to do so in terms of shedding the blood it would have required).
World War II would have probably ended with much the same results as the First
World War, that is, sowing the seeds of the next global conflaguration.

Cassady Craft
Department of Political Science
University of Georgia
e-mail [email-masked]
or
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Oct 1994 09:58:48 -0600
From:    Cooper Addison <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: fighter pilots

The members of the infantry divisions assigned to the rifle companies get
my vote. As in any war their chances of survival were almost zip.  A few
figures;  the 22nd infantry suffered over 2700 casualties in a few weeks
in the Hurtgen,  the 2nd Bn 112th inf. got in 535 replacements in one day in
Nov. after the same battle, 40,000 people served with the 1st Div and
they were only engaged in combat for about a year and a half (I think).
I recently met the man who introduced Pres Clinton at  the Normandy
ceremonies last June and he said the company which he commanded (G/16th),
took 400% casualties in 31 days near Aachen. Even in VN where the
casualties were not so horrific the chances of a soldier assigned to a
combat element of the 25th Div were only 1 in 4 of not becoming a casualty.
For those of you who want references on the above BC me and I'll try.

Cooper Addison

On Mon, 31 Oct 1994, Drew Halevy wrote:

> what was considered the most dangerous job in WWII (ie-the most risks)
>
> Drew Philip Halevy      |  Well we're waiting here in Allentown
> Grad Student            |  For the Pennsylvania we never found
> Department of History   |  For the promises our teachers gave
> University of Arkansas  |  If we worked hard
> [email-masked]   |  If we behaved-            Billy Joel
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Oct 1994 10:02:20 -0600
From:    Greg Kelley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hollywood in World War2

Stan Cohen's V FOR VICTORY: AMERICA'S HOME FRONT DURING WORLD WAR II
(Pictorial Histories, 1991) has a list of prewar and postwar movie & TV
personalities who served in the military between 1940 and 1945.  It
appears as below:

                  ARMY

James Arness                      Tim McCoy
Desi Arnaz                        Robert Mitchum
Joey Bishop                       George Montgomery
Neville Brand                     Arthur O'Connell
Mel Brooks                        Bert Parks
Art Carney                        Sidney Poitier
John Derek                        Tony Randall
Hugh Downs                        Ronald Reagan
Allen Funt                        Carl Reiner
Lorne Greene (Canadian Army)      Will Rogers Jr
Van Heflin                        Mickey Rooney
Hal Holbrook                      Telly Savalas
William Holden                    Rod Serling
John Huston                       Red Skelton
George Kennedy                    Eli Wallach
Stanley Kramer                    Jack Warden
Burt Lancaster                    Efrem Zimbalist Jr
Karl Malden

              NAVY & COAST GUARD

Eddie Albert                      Gene Kelly
Richard Boone                     Jack Lemmon
Raymond Burr                      Victor Mature
Sid Caesar                        Robert Montgomery
Tony Curtis                       Don Rickles
Richard Denning                   Jason Robards Jr
Billy De Wolfe                    Soupy Sales
Buddy Ebsen                       Robert Stack
Tom Ewell                         Rod Steiger
Henry Fonda                       Robert Taylor
Rock Hudson

                   MARINES

Sterling Hayden                   Tyrone Power
Bob Keesham                       George C. Scott
Ed McMahon                        James Whitmore
Hugh O'Brien                      Jonathan Winters

                 AIR FORCE

Gene Autry                        Norman Lear
Charles Bronson                   Walter Matthau
Bruce Cabot                       Burgess Meredith
Jackie Coogan                     Cameron Mitchell
Robert Cummings                   Tom Poston
Sabu Dastagir                     Robert Preston
Clark Gable                       Dan Rowan
George Gobel                      Mort Sahl
Charlton Heston                   Jimmy Stewart
Don Herbert                       Dick Van Dyke
Alan Ladd                         Jack Webb

             MERCHANT MARINE

Carroll O'Connor                  Cliff Robertson

Obviously, this is not a complete list, since I can think of two others
right off the top of my head-- Lew Ayres (medic) and Lee Powell (Marines)
nor have I the time to pursue individual cases to see what
impact/publicity any of these actors received while enlisting or
serving.  Still, it may serve as a starting point for anyone out there
with the time to take this line of resarch further.  If so, enjoy.

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Oct 1994 12:03:53 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP:  CVE-73  USS Gambier Bay

From: Dictionary of American Fighting Ships, Vol. III, 1968, Navy
Department, Office of the Chief of Naval Operations, Naval History
Division, Washington, D.C.

GAMBIER BAY (CVE-73)

dp. 7,800
l. 512' 3"
b. 65'
t. 108' 1"
dr. 22' 6"
s. 19 k.
a. 1 5", 16 40-mm.
cl. CASABLANCA

GAMBIER BAY, originally classified AVG-73, was reclassified ACV-73 on 20
August 1942 and again reclassified CVE-73 on 15 July 1943; launched
under a Maritime Commission Contract by the Kaiser Shipbuilding Co.,
Vancouver, Wash., 22 November 1943; sponsored by Mrs. H. C. Zitzewitz of
Oswego, Oreg.; and commissioned at Astoria, Oreg., 28 December 1943,
Captain Hugh H. Goodwin in command.

After shakedown out of San Diego, the escort carrier sailed 7 February
1944 with 400 troops embarked for  Pearl Harbor, thence to rendezvous
off the Marshalls where she flew 84 replacement planes to famed carrier
ENTERPRISE (CV-6). She returned to San Diego via Peal Harbor, ferrying
aircraft for repairs and qualified carrier pilots off the coast of
Southern California. She departed 1 May to join Read Admiral H. B.
Sallada's Carrier Support Group 2 (TG 52.11), staging in the Marshalls
for the invasion of the Mariannas.

GAMBIER BAY gave close air support to the initial landings of Marines on
Saipan 15 June 1944, destroying enemy gun emplacements, troops, tanks,
and trucks. ON the 17th her combat air control shot down or turned back
all but a handful of 47 enemy planes headed for her task group and her
gunners shot down 2 of the 3 planes that did break through to attack
her.

The following day, warning of another air attack sounded. As her
fighters prepared to take off, they found intense antiaircraft fire of
the entire task group covering their flight path. Nevertheless, in a
harrowing feat termed by Capt. Goodwin as "another shining example of
the adaptability and courage of the young men of our country," eight
pilots of Composite Squadron 10 did take off to help repulse the aerial
onslaught. GAMBIER BAY remained off Saipan, repulsing aerial raids and
launching planes which strafed enemy troop concentrations, bombed gun
emplacements, and supported marines and soldiers fighting ashore.
Meanwhile, American carriers slashed the carrier air strength of the
combined Japanese Mobile Fleet and turned it back in defeat in the
Battle of the Philippine Sea. GAMBIER BAY continued close ground support
operations at Tinian (19-31 July), then turned her attention to Guam,
where she gave identical aid to invading troops until 11 August.

After a respite for logistics in the Marshalls, GAMBIER BAY spent 15 to
28 September supporting the amphibious attack which drove ashore and
captured Peleliu and Angaur, Southern Palaus. She then steamed by way of
Hollandia, New Guinea, to Manus, Admiralities, where the invasion of the
Philippines was staged. Screened by four destroyer escorts, GAMBIER BAY
and KITKUN BAY (CVE-71) escorted transports and amphibious landing ships
safely to Leyte Gulf before joining Rear Admiral Clifton A. F. Sprague's
escort carrier task unit 19 September off Leyte.

The task unit comprised six escort carriers, screened by three
destroyers and four destroyer escorts, and was known by its voice radio
call as "Taffy 3." Under the command of Rear Admiral Thomas L. Sprague,
eighteen escort carriers, divided into three "Taffy" units, maintained
air supremacy over Leyte Gulf and eastern Leyte. During the invasion
their planes destroyed enemy airfields, supply convoys, and troop
concentrations; gave troops driving inland vital close air support; and
maintained combat air patrol over ships in Leyte Gulf. While "Taffy 1"
and "Taffy 2" were respectively stationed off northern Mindanao and off
the entrance to Leyte Gulf, "Taffy 3" steamed off Samar.

Meanwhile, the Japanese threw their entire fleet against American naval
power in desperate gamble to destroy the largest concentration of
American shipping in Leyte Gulf. Powerful enemy forces, comprised of
carriers, battleships, cruisers, and destroyers, converged on the
Philippines in a three pronged attack to the south, center, and north.
The Japanese Southern Force met disaster before dawn 25 October as it
tried to drive through Suriago Strait to join the center force off Leyte
Gulf. While steaming through the Subiyan Sea enroute to San Bernardino
Strait, the Center Force was hit hard on the 24th by hundreds of planes
from Admiral Halsey's fast attack carriers. After the Battle of Subiyan
Sea, Admiral Halsey no longer considered the Center Force a serious
menace, and he sent the carriers north to intercept decoy carriers of
the Japanese Northern Force off Cape Engano.

These swift moving events left the escort carriers of "Taffy 3" as lone
sentinels off Samar, and unaware of the nighttime movement of the Center
Force. However, shortly after sunrise 25 October, a gap in the morning
mist disclosed the pagoda-like mast of enemy battleships and cruisers on
the northern horizon. The still dangerous enemy force of more than 20
ships had slipped undetected through San Bernardino Strait and down the
fog-shrouded coast of Samar, bound for Leyte Gulf.

Despite the probable outcome of an engagement between two so unequal
surface forces, the presence of enemy ships in Leyte Gulf was
unthinkable; and "Taffy 3" turned to do battle against the enemy.
Immediately an urgent call for help went out from "Taffy 3" as the
escort carriers steamed eastward and launched planes that performed
seemingly impossible feats: scoring hits with torpedoes, bombs, and
strafing until their ammunition ran out, then making dummy runs to break
the enemy formation and delay its advance. Smoke was laid down to cover
their running fight as the gallant destroyers docked in and out of the
mist and smoke to charge battleship, cruiser, and destroyer formations
point-blank until ordered back to cover the escort carriers with more
smoke. The lone 5-inch gun of GAMBIER BAY spat out at an enemy cruise
that shelling her; and destroyer HEERMAN (DD-532) made an unsuccessful
effort under the combined fire of the heavy ships to save GAMBIER BAY.

GAMBIER BAY was soon dead in the water as three cruisers closed to point
blank range. Fires raged through the riddled escort carrier. She
capsized and sank at 0907, 25 October 1944 with the majority of her
nearly 800 survivors rescued by landing and patrol craft dispatched from
Leyte Gulf. Three other ships, gallantly fighting to the end, went down:
HOEL (DD-533); SAMUEL B. ROBERTS (DE-413); and JOHNSTON (DD-557). The
latter used only her 5-inch guns in a dummy torpedo run that thwarted
the torpedo attack of an entire Japanese Destroyer Squadron lead by a
cruiser.

Aircraft from "Taffy 2" joined in the epic battle off Samar. The events
that followed are best described in Admiral Sprague's own words: "At
0925 my mind was occupied with dodging torpedoes when near the bridge I
heard one of the signalmen yell 'They're getting away!" I could hardly
believe my eyes, but it looked as if the whole Japanese fleet was indeed
retiring. However, it took a whole series of reports from circling
planes to convince me. And still I could not get the fact to soak into
my battle-numbed brain. At best, I had expected to be swimming by this
time."

GAMBIER BAY and other ships of "Taffy 3," aided by planes of "Taffy 2"
had stopped the powerful Japanese Center Force and inflicted a great
loss. Two enemy cruisers were sunk and much damage inflicted on the
other ships of this overwhelmingly powerful surface fleet, turned back
in the last analysis by the indomitable spirit of the men of the escort
carriers and their screen of destroyers and destroyer-escorts.

GAMBIER BAY received four battle stars for service in World War II and
shared in the award of the Presidential Unit Citation to "Taffy 3" for
extraordinary heroism in the battle off Samar.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Oct 1994 10:32:46 -0600
From:    Drew Halevy <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hollywood in Uniform in World War2

It would be interesting to see how many did not make it back (such as
Glenn Mille) and how many were involved in combat (such as Jimmy Stewart
and Andy Roony) rather than non-combat duties (such as Reagan making
films, etc)-Drew

Drew Philip Halevy      |  Well we're waiting here in Allentown
Grad Student            |  For the Pennsylvania we never found
Department of History   |  For the promises our teachers gave
University of Arkansas  |  If we worked hard
[email-masked]   |  If we behaved-            Billy Joel

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Oct 1994 12:51:52 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: P-38 in MTO

     Derek,

     It's difficult to find a history on something like the Lightning that
     lends itself to the limitations of E:mail.

     The short write-ups of aircraft service found in the Arco-Aircam
     series of books tends to fit the bill, if I limit myself to one
     theater at a time.  So here goes, from Aircam #10 the P-38:

The Mediterranean Theater of Operations

The 12th Air Force initially had four P-38 groups but lost three of
them to the 15th Air Force at a later date.  For the purpose of
this text, ll will be dealt with at this point rather than trying to
break them down into two separate groups covering activities in each
air force. The 12th started with the 1st, 14th, 82nd and 350th
Groups, the 350th remained with the 12th until the end of the war.

The 1st Group came to the 12th, as previously mentioned, from
England, equipped with the P-38 which they flew until the end of the
war. They won three DUCs.  The first for a successful strafing attack
on massed enemy aircraft that had been brought up to oppose the
anticipated landings at Salerno. The action took place on 25 August,
1943. Less than a week later, on 30 August to be exact, they picked
up a second DUC for fighting off a massed attack by enemy fighters on
the heavy bombers they were escorting thus enabling the bombers to
inflict heavy damage on the marshalling yards at Aversa. They
supported the actual Salerno invasion in September and were
re-assigned to the 15th Air Force in November. Their third DUC came
on 18 May, 1944, when they provided withdrawal support for the
bombers returning from a raid on the Ploesti oil fields. They
finished out the war by providing air cover for the Anzlo beach
land- ings, the Invasion of Southern France, and continued to
escort the heavy bombers into Germany.

The 14th Group's record is almost a duplicate of the record of the
1st Group in that they went to England as a part of the 8th, were
re-asslgned to the 12th and arrived in North Africa on 11 November,
1942, and were finally sent to the 15th in November of 1943. They
also flew the P-38 for the entire war. Missions were very similar to
the 1st Group's. They won their DUC on 2 April, 1944, for keeping a
large force of enemy fighters at bay while the bombers they were
protecting hit ball bearing works in Austria.

The 82nd Group was sent to Northern Ireland in October of 1942 for
additional training on the P-38 but were not assigned to any air
force in particular until being ordered to join the 12th in North
Africa in December of 1942 to reinforce the fighter groups being
hard pressed at the time. They won a pair of DUCs before being
re-assigned to the 15th in November of '43. The first DUC was
awarded for a low level strafing mission on 25 August, 1943. Their
target was a large concentration of enemy aircraft on the Various
airfields m the Foggia complex. The second DUC came a week later
when they saved a large bomber formation from annihilation on 2
September, 1943. They spotted the heavy bombers under a viscious
attack by a large number of Nazi fighters and bored in at once to
drive them off.  The bombers had failed to make contact with their
withdrawal escort after a raid on the marshalling yards at Naples
and were without protection. They earned their third DUC as a part of
the 15th Air Force on 10 June, 1944, for a dive-bombing attack on the
Ploesti oil complex. The 82nd continued flying P-38s until the wars
end.

The 350th Group followed the others from England to the 12th in North
Africa, however, this group was never entirely equipped with the
Lightning, they also flew P-39s and P-40s but they spent the rest of
the war With the 12th. Whether they rightfully can be counted as a
P-38 group is naturally debatable. Since so far as can be
determined, the Bell aircraft always outnumbered the P-38, this
group will be passed over with just this mention.

A wing mission laid on the 2nd of April, 1944, will best serve to
illustrate the type of action the P-38s in the Mediterranean found
themselves engaged in. The 82nd Group was flying cover to a
formation of heavy bombers.  The time was approximately 10.15 hours.
Suddenly a group estimated at about 50 Me-109s, FW-190s and
MC-202s made a head on pass at the 82nd and unlike most being
encountered at the time these appeared ready to mix it with the
P-38s. Their eagerness was brought on by the fact that another
large formation was stalking the bombers from a position high above
and it was their job to draw off the 82nd and thus expose the
bombers to attack by their top group. The 82nd held their station
but did manage to pick off three of the attacking force with quick
snap shots. The top group did not attack.

The 325th Group flying P-47s took over from the 82nd at 10.45 hours
and they too were subjected to the same sort of tactics by 21
Me-109s and again three of the 109s were shot down and the bombers
protected.

The 1st Group's Lightnings showed up to relieve the 325th promptly
at 11.30 hours and were set upon shortly thereafter by 16 more Nazi
fighters, but these lacking a top group, attempted to by-pass them
and get at the bombers. A thirty minute dog fight ensued and more
Germans showed up and joined in the battle, hitting both the bombers
and their escorting P-38s. The 1st Group shot down eight Germans
before the 14th Group's Lightnings arrived at high noon, again right
on schedule, to find their comrades engaging from 10-15 enemy
fighters. They immediately joined the action with a will and shot
down 18 of the enemy planes. The totals for this mission were 32
enemy fighters shot down, six listed as probables and eight more as
damaged. The USAAF lost a lone P-38 which had to make a belly
landing near its base on the return flight. The bombers got through
to the target, the ball-bearing works at Steyr, Austria, and made a
successful bombing attack on it.

The Lightnings were often pressed into service as bombers when the
occasion demanded it. Such an occasion arose on 10 June, 1944, and
involved P-38s of the 82nd Group. They took off at dawn, led by Lt.
Col. William P. Litton, and headed their bomb laden craft at tree
top level towards Yugoslavia. Flying along the Danube until
they reached a pre-determined point neax Budapest they pivoted on it
and headed directly for Ploesti. The 1st Fighter Group was flying
top cover throughout the mission, Reaching the target area they
zoomed up in a fast climb to gain altitude for a diving attack on
the Romano American Oil Refineries which had managed to escape
any serious damage in other raids by the heavy bombers. Boring down
through smoke screens, intense flak, and enemy fighters they ignored
each in turn until after releasing their bomb loads. Hits were
scoxed on the all-important cracking plant and in the area of the
distillation unit and boiler houses. Someone hit a large storage
tank which exploded and sent flaming fuel over the area

Lt. Col. Ben A Mason, Jr., had been forced to Ignore a Me-110 that
had attempted to intercept him on the way in but on the way out he
encountered a 110 and shot him down, whether this was the same one is
not known.  He added two locomotives and several other vehicles and
kept shooting up targets on the way back until his ammo was
exhausted. Other pilots added eight more locomotives, and vehicles
that were in the path of their return route. The 1st Fighter Group
which had been acting as top cover now got its chance and destroyed
24 enemy aircraft that had responded to the call for air cover from
those on the ground.

Possibly the worst day of the war from a loss standpoint came on
D-Day during the invasion of Southern France. The 1st and 14th lost
a combined total of 23 P-38s and almost the same number of pilots
along with other casualties as a result of the operation. The 14th
flew a total of 18 missions during the day but this was topped by
the 21 flown by the 1st Group. The Groups flew a total of 1,033
sorties during the landings and destroyed 224 pieces of enemy
equipment.

The 82nd Group now equipped with the droop snoot P-38 complete with
a bombardier now began to fly high altitude missions in place of
bombers. The 15th Air Force press release announcing this new type of
mission was as follows " 15th Air Force in Italy For the first time
in history of the MTO, high altitude bombing by P-38 Lightning type
airplanes was undertaken on August 29th, when a 15th Air Force Group
led by Col. C. T. Edwinson, dropped a 15-ton bomb load on a railroad
bridge in Northern Italy near Latisana.

"After dropping their bombs the P-38s conducted a sweep in which
they destroyed six locomotives, damaged three others, and strafed a
number of tank cars and rolling stock. No flak or enemy fighters
were encountered.

" The bombs were well concentrated in the target area as recon
planes were in the area during the bombing and filmed the attacks
by the P-38s. Bombs were dropped from an altitude of 15,000 feet."

Some missions of this type produced excellent results, others
resulted in practically dry runs and the raids were finally
discontinued in favor of the conventional types.

The experiences of a pair of Lightning pilots on a low level strafing
mission is a testimonial to the ruggedness of the P-38. Lt. John M.
Hurley lost about four feet of his right wing tip when a 40 mm shell
hit it and the wing tank was riddled by 20 mm shells. He looked to
his flight leader for possible assistance. The leader, Lt. James A.
Eddins, was in even worse shape. His P-38 had taken a direct hit on
the nose, knocking out all guns and exploding the ammo. Bits of
metal blown off had hit the tips of the left prop, damaging it and
making the engine run rough. Other pieces had damaged the
stabilizer. A direct hit had knocked out the right engine. The two
damaged planes turned for home with a third acting as escort.
Eddins had a fight on his hands. His plane had a tendency to shake,
stall, and try to roll over and spin. The best speed he could
manage was about 120 mph. To make it worse he was down on the deck.
Mountains between him and his base made it imperative that he get up
to at least 13,000 feet. The process took almost an hour and he only
got up to 11,000, gaining altitude a little at a time he would
climb, level off, nose down a bit to avoid a spin, then repeat the
process over again. Finally he made it through a pass, nosed down
slightly and built his speed up to 155 mph and limped into base.

Lt. Hurley with the missing wing tip and no fuel in the right wing
tank made it back with only a slightly less amount of difficulty.
Both pilots were very thankful for the strong airplane that
Lockheed had produced. The 14th Group possessed in Lt. Col. Charles
D. Chitty, Groups Ops Officer, and Lt. Col. Hugh A. Griffith, a
squadron CO, the top locomotive busters in the theater. Their
totals of over 30 each made them top " Loco-Busters " in the area.

    Steve L. New
    [email-masked]
    Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Oct 1994 10:38:14 -0600
From:    Greg Kelley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Rumanian Army & other Balkans Forces

Mike (and etc.)

A few more titles to search out---

THE CAVALRY OF WORLD WAR II
by Janusz Piekalkiewicz.  Stein & Day, 1980.
     though heavily pictorical, the text does go into cavalry forces of
all combatants.  Good notes on Rumania, as well as a nice coverage of the
Italian cavalry in Russia (and their famous charge)

PAULUS AND STALINGRAD
by Walter Goerlitz.  Meuthen, 1963 (and later reprints)
     includes several chapters about Stalingrad "as seen by our allies"
which are illuminating about Rumanian views on the disaster.  Lascar is
mentioned, by the way.

OPERATION AUTONOMOUS: WITH THE S.O.E. IN WARTIME ROMANIA
by Ivor Porter.  Chatto & Windus, 1989.
     maybe not a whole lot about the Rumanian Army in Russia, but the
info regarding the Antonescu regime & the West's views towards it are
worth reading.  Good photos (even one of Marie Antonescu, Ion's wife)

HEADQUARTERS BUDAPEST
by Robert Parker.  Farrar & Rinehart, 1944.
     this is the title I was trying to remember some weeks back.  Has
Parker's account of events of the time (including the Iron Guard regime,
Hungarian invasion of Slovakia in 1939, and more).

Hope these are of interest to someone out there.

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Oct 1994 13:04:28 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: WEAP: 49,000 Lb Bomb

     While browsing through the copies of WWII in Photographs, (White
     publishers, 1946) my uncle had given me, I found something that to me
     is a complete surprise, the 49,000 lb bomb.  Unlike the "Grand Slam"
     aerodynamic weapons that the British developed, this bomb had an
     identical cross-section to the 500 lb bomb standing next to it.

     My questions are?

        1.  For what purpose was this bomb developed?

        2.  What aircraft was expected to be able to carry it?

        3.  What did it cost to develop this White Elephant?

     Thanks

    Steve L. New
    [email-masked]
    Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Oct 1994 12:14:24 -0600
From:    Greg Kelley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hungarian Army (paratroops & all)

Mike,

As I feared, my sources on the Hungarian Army are not as extensive as
those covering the Rumanians (hey, not that I've anything AGAINST Honved
Scouts, and the Arrow Cross was probably every bit as deranged as the
Iron Guard, but we've all got our preferences)

My reprint of HUNGARIAN ARMED FORCES HANDBOOK (Madej's edition) does
refer to a battalion of paratroopers in existence by 1944 and under the
direct control of the Air Force Commandant, but alas, nothing more. A
source which sounds very promising is

THE ROLE OF THE HUNGARIAN SOLDIER IN THE SECOND WORLD WAR
published by the Collegial Society of Hungarian Veterans out of New
Jersey back in the late 1950's  (OCLC #13547856).  I've seen it mentioned
in a couple bibliographies but the only library listed as owning it
reports their copy missing (AARRGH!).  This is supposedd to be a big,
400-page manuscript, so maybe it has what you need.  If you do run across
it, please, please let me know.  I'd really enjoy reading it.

As a sidebar I can suggest a 1977 publication from Columbia University Press,
THE HUNGARIAN LABOR SERVICE SYSTEM, 1938-1945 by Randolph L. Braham.
Good book on the State-operated field labour units that accompanied the
Army in the field as combination construction and penal/execution troops.
Maybe not in the same class as paratroops, but the best I can do for now.

Hungarian paratroops, Mike?  What next?  The exploits of Hungarian river
monitors on the Danube, 1944?

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Oct 1994 12:51:12 -0600
From:    Drew Wright <[email-masked]>
Subject: THIRD REICH GENERAL GRADE OFFICERS

I am interested in finding out how many general grade officers there were for
army, navy, and Luftwaffe during the Third Reich (mainly during the war years).
I am at least wanting a total number for each branch, but am also trying to
break it down into the following:

        1. How many attained each specific rank

        2. How many served in each career area such as field commands,
                administration, judiciary, TSD, medical, etc.

Any help in this would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Drew Wright

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Oct 1994 13:03:46 -0600
From:    Greg Kelley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hisler successor

Heydrich as Fuehrer??  An intriguing, if frightening concept.  I suppose
it would depend on what year Hitler dies (and what Heydrich is up to
other than serving as a pincushion for horsehair in Prague)  I would
guess that prior to, say, 1941, Heydrich was still too much of a small
bit player to carry that sort of weight.  Certainly by 1942 he would be a
factor to figure in such matters, but I'd think more along the line of as
a likely successor (or maybe ally/adversary) to Himmler.  A fun line to
pursue would be an ascending Heydrich 1942-on, with Himmler losing out
and ultimately replaced, all while Hitler's still alive.  THEN if/when
something happens to Hitler, Heydrich would be higher up in the chain of
command.

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Oct 1994 13:37:17 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hisler successor

Hello, Warren!

> To Greg, Jarrod et al.: I have a feeling, had he lived, that Reinhard Tristan
> Eugen Heydrich might have put himself in the lists to succeed Adolf.
>

    I second that notion. There is no doubt that had he lived, he
(Heydrich) could very possibly have succeeded Adolf.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Oct 1994 13:43:57 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: GEN: DO VETERANS WANT TO TALK ABOUT THEIR EXPERIENCES?

Hello, Arnaud!

Thanks for the post and response.

> However, I have always found it very hard to interview WWII veterans, maybe
> because of the age difference (they communicate more easily with those of
> similar generations).

    That has not been my experience. The technique I like to use is
to get these vets to start from the beginning. That is to say, from
the day they decided to join the military, their motivation(s) for
doing so, and their training.After this to let them talk of their
assignments and then let them give me what they want of their
impressions of combat. I have had some that wanted to just talk
without some sort of structure, but I usually don't let them get away
with that for too long. I want to hear the whole story, if there is
the time to hear it.

 It also seems to be a very tactful exercise, where
> for example it is not always wise to remind a 1945 veteran that he is
> mistaken when he says he fought the Das Reich Division in Alsace or was
> opposed by Tiger tanks. It is often better to nod an listen.

    That is true, and I heartily agree with that last statement.

> I have found them not always reliable for getting a fair military view (after al
> l
> many were troopers and did not have access to information), but
> invaluable for their everyday experience of the time.

    Most vets don't really have an idea of the whole picture, and
that is not necessary. It is only important that they are given the
chance to relate what they personally experienced. Details of the
sort you mention usually have faded, but the experience does remain,
and that, to me, is what is important.

    My two cents' worth on this.

    Thanks again.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Oct 1994 13:46:29 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HYPO: The "Big" what-

Hello, again, Arnaud!

There is no doubt that Hitler's stand-fast or die order saved the
German Army from defeat or rout before Moscow in 1941. It is
unfortunate that this successful application of this order led to
disaster elsewhere at other times. The same thing happened with the
air resupply of Demjansk. It was successful here but was disastrous
at Stalingrad.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Oct 1994 14:01:18 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hollywood in World War2

Hello, Greg!

And don't forget Douglas Fairbanks, Jr. He was a Commander in the
Navy.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Oct 1994 15:03:09 EDT
From:    "Steve L. New" <[email-masked]>
Subject: HIST: Veterans Day

     The British Army liaison officer here occasionally provides juicy
     tidbits for thought to the rest of us.  I thought I'd share the
     latest.

     Admittedly, this isn't WW-II, but this could be any war:

     The 11th of November, Veteran's Day in the USA, is known as
     Remembrance Day in Britain. It is a tradition of the British Forces
     that we stop what we are doing and remain silent for 2 minutes at
     11:00am. Since I am travelling for the next 2 weeks, I felt it
     appropriate to put this Remembrance Day message out a little
     prematurely this year.

     "11 November 1918

     ...the grim business of war itself went on as usual, right up to 11am
     and, at one or two points along the line, even beyond. Thus a Captain
     commanding an English cavalry squadron which took the Belgian village
     of Erquelinnes wrote that morning:

     "At 11:15 it was found necessary to end the days of a German
     machine-gunner on our front who would keep on shooting. The armistice
     was already in force, but there was no alternative...."

     Elsewhere on the British front an officer commanding a battery of
     six-inch howitzers was killed at one minute past eleven.......

     But generally, any firing still going on ended on the last second of
     the tenth hour, sometimes with droll little ceremonies - as on the
     British front near Mons, where another and more fortunate German
     machine-gunner blazed off his last belt of ammunition during the last
     minute of the war and then, as the last hour struck, stood up on his
     parapet, removed his steel helmet, bowed politely to what was now the
     ex-enemy opposite, and disappeared.

     The British division on whose front that little incident took place
     had lost, during that one final week of the war, two officers killed
     and twenty six wounded, and among the other ranks one hundred and
     seventeen killed, six hundred and ninety-three wounded and sixty one
     missing. Small wonder that its historian recorded "no cheering and
     very little outward excitement" as peace came."

     CAH

    Steve L. New
    [email-masked]
    Just an armadillo on the shoulder of the information superhighway.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Oct 1994 14:12:13 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ME163

Hello, Drew!

Here goes with the rest of the books I have on the Pacific War:

                  Paperback

Midway by A. J. Barker
Japan: The Final Agony by Alvin Cook
New Guinea: The Tide is Stemmed by John Vader
The Fall of the Philippines by Ward Rutherford
Flying Tigers by Ron Heffermann
Suicide Weapon by A. J. Barker
B-29 by Carl Berger
Aircraft Carrier by Donald MacIntyre
Yammamoto by A. J. Barker
Stillwell by D. D. Roper
Mountbatten by Arthur Swinson

                 Hardback

Miracle at Midway by Gordon W. Prange
At Dawn We Slept by Gordon W. Prange
Target Tokyo by Gordon W. Prange
Clear the Bridge by Rear-Admiral Richard H. O'Kane
Silent Victory by Clay Blair, Jr. (Chronicles every sub patrol
carried out by US subs in WWII)
The Years of MacArthur 1942-1945 by Clayton James
Death March by Donald Knox
Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo by Captain Ted Lawson
Brave Men by Ernie Pyle
Hirohito: Emperor of Japan by Leonard Mosley
The Fall of Japan by William Craig
The Rising Sun by John Toland
Singapore:The Japanese Version by Masanobu Tsuji

           Novels

The Bridge Over the River Kwai byh Pierre Boule
Battle Cry by Leon Uris
The Fleet in the Window by David Bergamini

That is it for this part of your search. Will send more tomorrow.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Oct 1994 13:49:03 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: WEAP: 49,000 Lb Bomb

Hello, Steve!

Are you certain of that? Are you certain that is not a typo? I never
heard of that, and there wasn't an aircraft large enough or strong
enough to carry that kind of weight in WWII. There is something wrong
with the info here.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Oct 1994 13:58:51 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Battle of Britain bibliography

Hello, Eric!

Thanks for the note.

> I didn't see Derek Wood's "The Narrow Margin" in that list.  Although
> published in 1968, I believe it still holds up.  Particularly
> interesting is the day-by-day description of events.  Rivetting
 reading even for the layman (such as myself).

    The reason it wasn't on the list is that I don't have it. I
haven't seen it either, but if I ever do, you can bet I will add it
to my collection.

    Thanks again.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Oct 1994 15:08:15 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: THIRD REICH GENERAL GRADE OFFICERS

Hello, Drew!

Thanks for the note, and will be glad to help.

>         1. How many attained each specific rank
>
>         2. How many served in each career area such as field commands,
>                 administration, judiciary, TSD, medical, etc.
>
> Any help in this would be greatly appreciated.
>

    I should have some info on this, and will get back to you. Will
let you know.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Oct 1994 15:13:54 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Writing a book:-want to see?

To whom this may concern!

    Here is the promised source list on the Me-163.

>     There are several books out on this subject, and will compile a
> reading list for you. Will get it to you on Monday.

      Paperback

Rocket Fighter by William Greene
Flying for the Fatherland: The Century's Greatest Pilot by Judy Lomax
Rocket Fighter by Mano Ziegler (personally flew this aircraft)

       Hardback

Famous Fighters of the Second World War by William Greene
Airereview's German Military Aircraft of the Second World War by
Gunjohi No Zenbo

Top Secret Bird: The Luftwaffe's Me-163 Comet by Wolfgang Spaete (A
personal memoir)

This is all that I have on this, but there is enough here to compile
a pretty good idea of what it was like to fly this airplane and the
problems associated with it.

Hope this helps.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Oct 1994 15:21:45 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Home: US: Illinois at war

Hello, Peter!

Glad to hear from you once again, and hope all is well.

>             my mother had wooden tires on her bicycle and I had to
> sit in the backseat, a terrible noise.

    That is interesting. I hadn't read or heard that but it makes
perfect sense. Any idea how long they lasted, and if replacement
tires were available?

Thanks again.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Oct 1994 15:19:43 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Hisler successor

Hello, Greg!

Would like to add a thought here to your fine post.

> Heydrich as Fuehrer??  An intriguing, if frightening concept.  I suppose
> it would depend on what year Hitler dies (and what Heydrich is up to
> other than serving as a pincushion for horsehair in Prague)  I would
> guess that prior to, say, 1941, Heydrich was still too much of a small
> bit player to carry that sort of weight.

    Not really. Please don't forget the reason why Heydrich was sent
to Prague,i.e. to get him out of Berlin. Heydrich kept a dossier on
all the ranking Nazis and/or anyone else he felt required such
attention.

 Certainly by 1942 he would be a
> factor to figure in such matters, but I'd think more along the line of as
> a likely successor (or maybe ally/adversary) to Himmler.

    Yes and no to that. Perhaps to Himmler for certain, but with
goods on all those around him, it would have been a simple matter to
play one off on the other (similar to what Stalin did in Russia in
the 1920's) to come out on top. There is no doubt, given Heydrich's
gift and craft for security matters, that he could very easily wound
up succeeding Hitler, even if it amounted to a struggle for power.

 A fun line to
> pursue would be an ascending Heydrich 1942-on, with Himmler losing out
> and ultimately replaced, all while Hitler's still alive.  THEN if/when
> something happens to Hitler, Heydrich would be higher up in the chain of
> command.

    I don't think it would have really mattered. Heydrich was a very
powerful and influential person, even at the level he occupied.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Oct 1994 14:53:46 GMT+1
From:    SYSTEM 0PERATOR <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Returned mail: Insufficient permission

>From stat.umn.edu!MAILER-DAEMON Mon Oct 31 13:14:46 1994 remote from abouis
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 94 13:14:46 GMT+1
From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <[email-masked]>
Subject: Returned mail: Insufficient permission
To: <[email-masked]>

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
mail: cannot append to /usr/mail/rjg
mail: cannot create dead.letter
550 <[email-masked]>... Insufficient permission

   ----- Unsent message follows -----
To: "Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re:      Re: "Old 59"
From: [email-masked] (SYSTEM 0PERATOR)
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 94 13:14:46 GMT+1
Organization: Individual - Paris - France

"Robert J. Granvin" <[email-masked]> writes:

> As far as missions go, 121 is fairly phenomenal, even by today's standards.
> It's easy to assume that during each mission, the aircraft will encounter
> flak, fighters and guns of various sorts.  To survive defenses for more
> than 100 missions is pretty unusual, though things were getting "easier"
> in 1944.

Robert, thanks for your informative mail.
We would have to check Desert Storm to see this. I thought many aircraft
had flown 100+ runs against the Irakis. Does anyone have stats on Vietnam
aircraft too ? In both cases, naturally, air opposition was much lower than
during WWII.

> 121 missions also equates to one mission every third day without fail during
> the course of a calendar year.  When totalling in regular maintenance (ignori
> damage and other repairs), that's a pretty agressive program.  I forget what
> the maintenace:flight hours ratio is for many of today's aircraft, but 1/3
> of the calendar days in the air may simply not be possible anymore.

I don't know. If I take Clostermann for example, from 1943 to 1945 he
flew 432 combat missions. This makes about a mission every two days. If
you consider the periods of leave, in hospital, etc....the sortie rate
is probably higher. Does anyone have statistics to bring us about this ?

Arnaud.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Oct 1994 14:55:55 -0500
From:    "David a. Vandenbroucke" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: fighter pilots

This is all theoretical to me, but I would have to opine that for constant
danger and sheer nastiness all the time, there couldn't be anything worse than
the combat infantryman.  Landing on a carrier is something I wouldn't want
to try, but at least there was a dry bunk and maybe a plate of ice cream
waiting for you.  Again, nobody in combat "had it easy," but I think
perhaps the riflemen had it worse.

--Dav Vandenbroucke
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Oct 1994 20:49:00 EST
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 1 NOV 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
WEDNESDAY, 1 NOVEMBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  C-46, Curtiss Commando
  F-7, Consolidated Liberator
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): In the Kurile Islands, a B-24 on an armed
weather mission bombs Otomari Cape.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA THEATER

  CHINA THEATER (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, about 70 fighters again
support Chinese ground forces in the Lungling area; 13 fighters strafe river,
road, and rail traffic from Kunghsien to Loyang; the detachments of the 11th
Bombardment Squadron (Medium), 341st Bombardment Group (Medium), operating
from Kweilin and Liuchow with B-25s, return to base at Yang Tong; the
detachment of the 26th Fighter Squadron, 51st Fighter Group, operating from
Nanning with P-51s, returns to base at Kunming.

  INDIA-BURMA THEATER (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 70+ fighter-bombers knock
out the bridge at Panghkam, slightly damage bridges in the Wingkang and
Kawnghka area, hit railroad targets of opportunity between Indaw and Naba,
attack Japanese positions near Bhamo, Si-in, Hantet, and Shwegu, and bomb the
towns of Loiwing and Lagaw; 9 B-25s damage bridge approaches at Hsenwi,
Namhkai, and Kawnghka. The elements of the 24th Combat Mapping Squadron, 8th
Photographic Reconnaissance Group, operating from Hsinching and Pengshan with
F-7s, return to the detachment base at Changyi (squadron is based at
Guskhara, India).

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): 2 missions are flown.
  Mission 696: 324 bombers and 321 fighters are dispatched to attack 2
synthetic oil plants near Gelsenkirchen and a bridge at Rudesheim, Germany;
1 P-51 is lost:
  1. 142 B-17s are dispatched to hit the Gelsenkirchen/Norstern oil plant
(113); 23 hit the secondary, the Hamm marshalling yard; 1 hits a target of
opportunity; 24 B-17s are damaged; 1 airman is KIA. Escort is provided by 140
P-47s and P-51s; they claim 1-0-0 aircraft; 1 P-51 is lost (pilot MIA).
  2. 143 of 144 B-24s hit the Gelsenkirchen/Buer oil plant; 25 B-24s are
damaged. Escort is provided by 109 P-47s and P-51s; they claim 1-0-0
aircraft; 1 P-51 is damaged beyond repair.
  3. 38 B-17s are dispatched to hit a railroad bridge at Rudesheim (13); 24
hit the secondary, a marshalling yard at Koblenz; 7 B-17s are damaged. Escort
is provided by 37 of 38 P-51s.
  Mission 697: 3 B-17s and 5 B-24s drop leaflets in the Netherlands during
the night.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Weather prevents bomber operations;
fighters fly patrols, sweeps, armed reconnaissance over Belgium, E France,
and large areas of W Germany and attack bridges, railroads, and various other
targets.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): In Austria, 320+ B-17s and
B-24s, with fighter escorts, bomb diesel and ordnance works, and marshalling
yard at Vienna; also hit are marshalling yards at Graz, a tank factory at
Kapfenberg, targets of opportunity including marshalling yards at Gussing,
Ljubljana and Cakove, Yugoslavia, and scattered communications targets in S
Germany, Hungary, Austria, and Yugoslavia; several fighters strafe road and
rail transport targets and troops in the Gyor, Hungary-Parndorf and
Neusiedler Lake areas.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, operations are again
curtailed by bad weather; however, fighters and fighter-bombers successfully
attack bridges, rail lines, roads, vehicles, and trains in the C Po Valley
and hit scattered targets elsewhere in N Italy; the 525th Fighter Squadron,
86th Fighter Group, moves from Grosseto to Pisa with P-47s.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): 8 B-24s from Guam Island, Mariana Islands,
attack shipping NE of Iwo Jima Island, Volcano Islands. 12 B-24s escorting a
US Navy photo aircraft over Iwo Jima Island and Haha Jima and Chichi Jima
Islands in the Bonin Islands, bomb airfields, a warehouse, and shipping.
P-47s from Saipan Island strafe Pagan Island, both in the Mariana Islands.
During the night of 1/2 Nov a B-24 on a snooper mission from Saipan Island
bombs Iwo Jima Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: In the Philippine
Islands, B-24s bomb airfields at Cebu City on Cebu Island and Alicante on
Negros Island and supply dumps at Del Monte on Mindanano Island; fighter-
bombers hit Bacolod, Alicante, and Carolina Airfields on Negros Island; P-47s
attack shipping and shore targets during a sweep over the Sulu Archipelago.
P-38s and B-25s pound Namlea Airfield on Buru Island in the Moluccas Islands.
A-20s and B-25s hit Babo Airfield in New Guinea. The 394th Bombardment
Squadron (Heavy), 5th Bombardment Group (Heavy), moves from Noemfoor Island
off New Guinea to Morotai Island, Moluccas Islands. During Nov 44:
 - HQ V Bomber Command and HQ V Fighter Command move from Owi, Schouten
   Islands to Leyte Island, Philippine Islands.
 - HQ 2d Combat Cargo Group and the 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th Combat Cargo
   Squadrons arrive on Biak Island off New Guinea from the US with C-46s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

01/0150Z NOV

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Oct 1994 21:03:56 -0500
From:    Carlos R Rivera <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: fighter pilots

D. Vandenbroucke said-
>
> This is all theoretical to me, but I would have to opine that for constant
> danger and sheer nastiness all the time, there couldn't be anything worse tha
n
> the combat infantryman.  Landing on a carrier is something I wouldn't want
> to try, but at least there was a dry bunk and maybe a plate of ice cream
> waiting for you.  Again, nobody in combat "had it easy," but I think
> perhaps the riflemen had it worse.

----how about the engineering snipes in a battleship at Jutland, fire and ice
at one short moment before darkness and cold water rushed into the boiler room
and you drown before the boilers "explode" or .....

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Oct 1994 22:28:25 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: QUESTION

Jack, I am Benis M. Frank. I served in the Marine Corps in WWII in the Pacific
with the 1st Marine Division, and participated in the Peleliu and Okinawa
campaigns. I remained in the Marine Corps Reserve and was commissioned after I
graduated from college. I was on active duty in Korea during the Korean War. I
answer your questions in turn:
1. Yes, I think that Veteran's Day is appropriately commemorated. Initially,
before WWII, it was known as Armistice Day, commemorating the end of WWI on 11
November 1918.
2. I don't think that there should be any other honors than those which now
exist. This country has, for the most part, been caring of its veterans. As I
was not wounded in either war or did not suffer combat fatigue which is the
pre-Vietnam War name for the stress syndrome of the VN vets, outside of the GI
Bill and all that it gave WWII veterans, I cannot ask for more.
3. WWII ended the way I thought it should have. Korea I have some doubt about.
It was a different war, a different enemy whom we really did not know how to
deal with.
4. 11 November is the appropriate date for Veterans' Day. What gets me angry is
the way the Congress diddled around with the date to make Veterans' Day a
Monday to increase sales and business.
5. I think that one day a year is sufficient to commemorate the veterans of our
country, although I feel that we should never forget them. For those of us who
lost friends and buddies in the war, they will always be young in our memories,
they will never have grown old with us and with the families--wives, children,
and grandchildren--they never had. That is one of the saddest things about war.
Good luck on your paper. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 31 Oct 1994 22:28:30 -0500
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: BOOKS ON THE PACIFIC

Eddie Layton was Nimitz' intelligence officer for the whole of WWII, I guess.
He died before finishing his book, and it was completed by Roger Pineau and
John Costello. In the minds of many, the second half of the book is not as good
as the first. As I have noted before, Gene Sledge's "With the Old Breed [the
1st Marine Division] at Peleliu and Okinawa" is without question one of the
finest and most realistic memoirs published of the Pacific War. I heartily
recommend it to one and all, especially to our younger members on the list who
have no idea of what war is really like.
Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 1 Nov 1994 13:52:15 EST
From:    [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Worst type of service - was Re: fighter pilots

>From memory I seem to recall that statistically the arms with the least chance
of survival overall were the German U-boat service and RAF Bomber Command.
Infantry units generally were relatively 'safe'. Armoured units were marginally
better than infantry though. Of course this is an average. Some units took very
few casualties, some were wiped out.

David Murnain
[email-masked]

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 30 Oct 1994 to 31 Oct 1994
*************************************************