Subject: WWII-L Digest - 16 Oct 1994 to 17 Oct 1994

From: Automatic digest processor <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 00:02:06 -0400

There are 30 messages totalling 1077 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. INF: Regia Marina, Part 2 (2)
  2. INF: USN Chronology 10-17-94
  3. Safe Passage
  4. INF: 50 Years Ago - 18-OCT-1944
  5. ROMANIAN VOLUNTEERS OF THE WAFFEN-SS (book title)
  6. HIST: Waffen SS
  7. Rudder's Rangers and Pointe du Hoc
  8. PFF attacks
  9. TWO QUESTIONS (One answer))
 10. THE WAFFEN-SS and the German Army (2)
 11. Queens as troopships
 12. TACT: Japan if no Pearl (5)
 13. Rumanian Army & other Balkan forces
 14. HELP!--Re: France "what-if" novel
 15. Invasion of Crete -- Operation Merkur
 16. UNSUBSCRIBE
 17. RESEARCH: USAF Air Wings (2)
 18. The Big "What if..." 300 extra U-Boats
 19. [INF] USAAF 18 OCT 44
 20. INF: REGIA MARINA, PA
 21. SAFE PASSAGE
 22. QUERY: Enola Gay controversy (fwd) (2)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Oct 1994 01:11:44 EST
From:    "CARL WERNKE (TCWERNC@VCCSCENT)" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: Regia Marina, Part 2

 In-Reply-To: 13 Oct 1994 07:13:58 GMT-6

 Robert T. Moore writes:
 > I would also like to add, that the Japanese used wooden fins on on those
 > "Long Lance" torpedoes in the PH attack as the harbor itself was rather
 > shallow in comparison to that of Taranto.

 Robert, I would like to add to tour post. By mid-October, a new Japanese
 torpedo was ready for service. This new weapon was designated the Type 91,
 Modification 2, and was Japan's latest in a series of upgrades. The Japanese
 navy's striking force (Rengo Kontai) waited until 18 November to receive an
 adequate quantity for use at Pearl Harbor. The weapon had separate anti-roll
 stabilizers mounted directly on the aft body of the torpedo. The anti-roll
 stabilizers were an important addition because these appendages  increased
 the chances of the torpedo running true to drop direction.

  The Type 93, Model 1, Modification 1 (Destroyers), or the "Long Lance",
  was successfully used during the First Phase of Battle of the Java Sea,
  27 February 1942. The Long Lance, their 24-inch torpedoes, which because
  they were oxygen-propelled made almost no wake at 49 knots at a range of
  22,000 yards, and at 36 knots, at a range of 44,000 yards.

  I hope this has been of some help.

  Material obtained from _A Battle History of The Imperial Japanese Navy
  (1941-1945)_,by Paul S. Dull, USNI Press, 1978.

   Carl Wernke
   [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Oct 1994 04:00:17 PDT
From:    "Keller, Theron P." <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: USN Chronology 10-17-94

UNITED STATES NAVY CHRONOLOGY
from:
//byrd.mu.wvnet.edu/pub/history/military/wwii/naval_chronology/chr4(4,5).txt

1944
10/17 Tue. Aircraft from carrier task group (Rear Adm. R. E.
           Davison bomb Japanese airfields on Luzon, P. I.
           Army troops are landed on Suluan and Dinagat Islands
           at the entrance to Leyte Gulf, P. I.
           Submarine Narwhal (SS-167) lands supplies on
           northeast coast of Tawi Tawi, P. I.
            United States naval vessel sunk:
             Motor minesweeper YMS-70, by storm, off Leyte, P.
              I.
              10 d. 56'N., 125 d. 12'E.
            United States naval vessel damaged:
             Minelayer MONTGOMERY (DM-17), by mine, east of
              Palau Islands, Caroline Islands,
               10 d. 56'N., 125 d. 12'E.

Theron P. Keller
Logicon, Inc.
Dahlgren, VA  22448 USA
[email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Oct 1994 08:10:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Safe Passage

Ed Miller writes:
 >  If memory serves, a Japanese passenger ship was given safe passage in the
 >summer or fall of 1942 to carry interned US diplomats, businessmen and other
 >civilians to Laurenco Marques in Portuguese East Africa (Mozambique) where
 >they were picked up by the Swedish liner Gripsholm. Among them were
 >Ambassador Joseph Grew. I remember the spread in Life magazine when he gave
 >the first inside report from Japan.

I think it also carried the Navy nurses that were captured on
Guam.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Oct 1994 05:13:01 -0700
From:    John Davis <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: 50 Years Ago - 18-OCT-1944

On 18-OCT-1944, the following occurred -

World War II - The Battlefronts
-------------------------------
Western Front - Heavy fighting continues in Aachen. In the US 7th Army
sector, the 36th Division captures part of Bruyeres.

Eastern Front - The 3rd Belorussian Front continues its offensive in East
Prussia against very strong German resistance.  The Russians are very
close to capturing Belgrade. The German Army Group F speeds up its retreat
from the Balkans. Units of the 4th Ukraine Front break in from Poland
across the Carpathian passes and penetrate into Czechoslovakia from the
east.

Italian Front - The Polish 5th Division enters Galeata without opposition.
The 10th Indian Division is ordered to attack across the river Savio.

Philippines - Three task groups with 13 aircraft carriers of the 3rd Fleet
hammer the northern part of Luzon and the Manila area. A squadron of
cruisers shells the coastal defences of the island of Leyte. The Japanese
attack the invasion fleet with everything they have, sinking one fast
transport. Japanese Imperial Headquarters orders the start of Operation
Sho-go ("Victory"), a defensive action against the American land and naval
forces about to invade Leyte.

Burma - The 5th Indian Division enters Tiddim.

Peleliu - The fighting continues in the Mount Umurbrgol continues.
Fighting also continues against the Japanese pocket on Angaur Island.

=============================================================================

Sources: "2194 Days of War" by Cesare Salmaggi and Alfredo Pallavisimi, "The
World Almanac Book Of WW II" by Peter Young, "Facts On File Yearbook 1944,
Person's Index Of World Events" edited by R.L. Lapica.

Previous articles are archived at ftp.netcom.com in directory /pub/jbd and can
be accessed via the WWW by URL: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/jbd/ww2.html. If you
have difficulty accessing the Netcom FTP server, please keep trying because it
stays very busy.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Davis     [email-masked]
Cary, N.C.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Oct 1994 07:40:53 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: INF: Regia Marina, Part 2

Hello, Carl!

Thanks for the additional info on those Japanese torpedoes.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Oct 1994 07:44:57 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: ROMANIAN VOLUNTEERS OF THE WAFFEN-SS (book title)

Hello, Greg!

Thank you very much for the additional info on those Rumanian troops
who served with the Waffen-SS. I now want to research this farther.

Thanks again.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Oct 1994 10:27:04 -0400
From:    Warren Thompson <[email-masked]>
Subject: HIST: Waffen SS

F Y I to interested colleagues: The Waffen SS uniforms were basically
identical in color to those of the regular army: feldgrau = gray-green +
black for Panzertruppen. Except for the latter, black was seldom worn
orn
wanted to look like combatants). It amuses me that many writers portray
the wartime SS, even those on duty in the camps, as still wearing the
black uniform with the swastika armband on the left sleeve.

Waffen SS (at least during the war) were the only branch allowed to wear the
runic SS collar flashes; the Reichsadler (Reichs eagle) was a special SS
design and worn on the left sleeve, not on the right breast as in the Wehrmacht.

-- Warren Thompson

[email-masked]

by anyone in any branch of the SS during the war (I suppose all SS

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Oct 1994 10:15:10 -0500
From:    Cooper Addison <[email-masked]>
Subject: Rudder's Rangers and Pointe du Hoc

Last week David Rising asked a question about what units the second
Ranger Bn was opposing at Pointe du Hoc. Due to a unique set of
circumstances I thought I had the specific information he wanted.  As it
turns out I did not have the unit designations of the German units but
what I do have may be of interest so I am posting it to the entire group.
Although I am not a proponent of so called elite infantry units I got
interested in the history of the WWII Ranger units through having met a
local named Bob Edlin who served from Normandy to the end of the war as a
platoon leader in A Co 2nd Rangers and was kind enough to let me read
much of his extensive collection of books. His exploits are detailed in
*June 6, 1944*.  He received a DSC for the single-handed capture of a large
German fort near Brest.

Most of the information I found on P.d H. came from *Rudders Rangers* by
Ronald Lane which was printed in 1977 by Ranger Associates in Manassas, VA.

My impression is that the 2nd Bn was initially opposed by the same mix of
Germans, Poles, and Russians found on the rest of Omaha.  There were
troops on top of the cliff but had they been in mass I doubt the cliff
could have been scaled.  Many of the casualties came from a MG on the
left flank of the Rangers who were from D,E,& F companies and totaled
little more than 200 men, a Ranger company having only two platoons.

During the day the enemy apparently was reinforced by a regular German
unit and the bulk of the Ranger casualties were taken in the fighting in
the lunar landscape around the casements and in the hedgerows along the
Grandcamp les Bains Rd.

The guns which were not in the casements were found hidden but functional
and destroyed with thermite grenades.

There is an account of the action in Sat. Evening Post Aug. 19,1944 by Lt Gk
Hodenfield.

I am new to this list and if the above has already been posted, I apologize.

Cooper Addison

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Oct 1994 10:27:20 -0500
From:    Drew Halevy <[email-masked]>
Subject: PFF attacks

> PFF = Pathfinder Force.
>
> The PFF flew radar equipped aircraft to bomb the enemy in adverse
> weather conditions.  Everyone dropped when the PFF aircraft
> dropped.
>
This raises another question. How accurate were these missions when
compared to a "standard" mission (say a daylight raid with Norton Bombsights)
Thanks-Drew

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Oct 1994 14:06:55 -0230
From:    OLAF <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TWO QUESTIONS (One answer))

Ron Babuka asked:

>Can anyone recommend any good books on the activities of the
>Kriegsmarine outside of the U-boats and major capital ships?
>I was intrested in the activities of the Destroyers and smaller
>vessels  (Including the E-boats).

Ron should try to get hold of a copy of M.J. Whitley, GERMAN
COASTAL FORCES OF WORLD WAR TWO (London: Arms & Armour Press,
1992). 191 pp., photographs, figures, maps, appendices, sources,
index.  30, cloth; ISBN 1-85409-085-2. Distributed in the United
States by Sterling Publishing, New York, NY.

Hope this helps.

Olaf Janzen                        Tel: (709) 637-6282
Department of History              FAX: (709) 639-8125
Sir Wilfred Grenfell College       e-mail: [email-masked]
Corner Brook, Newfoundland
Canada
A2H 6P9

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Oct 1994 12:25:37 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: THE WAFFEN-SS and the German Army

Hello, Arnaud!

Thanks for the additional info on Wehrmacht atrocities committed in
France in during the French Campaign of 1940. Also the additional
info on Wingate was very interesting.

Thanks, again.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Oct 1994 15:56:41 GMT
From:    Jim Auld <[email-masked]>
Subject: Queens as troopships

Further to the item re Queen Elizabeth and Queen Mary as troop transports.
Your correspondents are correct.  They were considered so fast (and so it
proved) they would be able to outrun any U-boat.

Their one vulnerable point was thought to be in the approaches to Great Britain,
so escort groups of destroyers, aged cruisers etc were sent to meet them
incoming and escort them outgoing.

This worked perfectly except on one occasion, October 2, 1942 when Queen Mary and th
and the cruiser HMS Curacoa got their zig-zags crossed.

QM sliced Curacoa in two, killing 338 men.  The incident was hushed up until
after the war.

QM is now, of course, a tourist attraction at Long Beach, CA.  I'm told
you can still see the dent in her stem caused by the collision.
Jim Auld

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Oct 1994 12:44:37 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: THE WAFFEN-SS and the German Army

Hello, Oliver!

Your question is too general to answer quickly. There are several
works I can refer you to that will give you a good answer to this
question.

Basically, the Waffen-SS originated as Hitler's bodyguard, a small,
hand-picked unit that was originally commanded by Julius Schreck. It
came into being in 1929. After the death of Schreck, Heinrich Himmler
was named in his place. Himmler began to expand the scope of this
unit, which was still a bodyguard unit, but as Hitler became more
known with his public activities also expanding commensurately with
his popularity, it was necessary to enlarge his bodyguard contingent.

You must understand that the SS or Allgemeine SS (the blackshirts)
was a Nazi Party Organization that soon became a state within a
state, and all covered under the umbrella of security. Ancillary
organizations became the Gestapo, the SD or Sicherheitsdienst under
Heydrich, the police organizations, the Kripo, Sipo, all these were
controlled by Himmler's SS organzation.

For additional info, please consult the following:

The SS:Alibi of a Nation by Gerhard Reitlinger
The Order of the Death's Head by Hoehne

among others.

The Waffen-SS, created under Paul Hausser, a former Reichswehr
general, set up and commanded the first officers' traingin school at
Braunschweig, and it was he who became the first CO of the SS-
Verfuegungstruppe. The selection of these troops, as well as the
original SS members, with the exception of the "Old Guard" was based
on the following:

    1. height-noone under 1,90 meters was considered for entry
    2. physical characteristics: blond, blue-eyed, fair-skinned
       no physical deformities. Good physique.
    3. racial purity: prospective members had to show conclusive
       evidence of their purity back to 1750. This was called
       an Ahnenpass. Women of SS officers were required to produce
       the same proof of racial purity.

    I might add that many of the nobility joined the SS as a matter
of prestige, and were allowed to do so, as it also gave the SS added
credibility and glamour.

       That is it in a nutshell.

The army organization was not and did not have this requirement,
being the force formed the defense of the nation. The SS and any SS-
related organizations were solely Party organizations. The SS was
conceived of as an elite organization with exacting racial and
physical standards. The SS was also expected to be politically
motivated according to National Socialist ideals.

That is the basic difference between the two organizations, but,
again, this is a very superficial treatment of a complex question.

Hope this helps.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Oct 1994 14:14:50 EDT
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TACT: Japan if no Pearl

Dear Bryant-

The Philippines were a dagger across the throat of any southern expansion
of the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere. There is no way the Japanese
could have moved into Southeast Asia or the East Indies without negating
(and not simply neutralizing) the threat of American bases in the Phil.
Unless they could get control of the islands peacefully, the chances of         which I believe were zero, war with the US was inevitable. In any case,
the Japanese intention had been to challenge the US for control of the
western Pacific at least since 1907, when an Imperial Rescript to the
Japanese armed forces declared the US had replaced Russia as Japan's
primary enemy.

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Oct 1994 14:12:52 -0500
From:    Greg Kelley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Rumanian Army & other Balkan forces

Mike (and anyone else)

Glad to hear that your pursuit of obscure armies is progressing.  I can
suggest a reference tool in your endeavours which you may already be
familiar with, but here it is---

LEAGUE OF NATIONS ARMAMENTS YEAR BOOK

published by the League at Geneva annually from 1924 to 1939/40, these
can be a veritable treasure trove of statistics and information on the
composition of national armed forces during the interwar years.  Of
course, like Jane's, it's only as accurate as information available at
the time, but many of the armies you've expressed interested in were
either closely inspected by treaty (Hungary, Bulgaria), fairly open
(Rumania) or simply had little to hide (Albania).  This series is where I
found information on the Royal Albanian Forestry Guards & a weapons count
for the Albanian Army's artillery arsenal (all I recall is two 149mm
howitzers--if you need all the figures, I can retrieve).

I can suggest other titles, Mike, but be patient.  Enjoy GERMANY & ITS
ALLIES--it's a good read.

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Oct 1994 14:29:41 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: HELP!--Re: France "what-if" novel

Hello, Greg!

An interesting thought.

> I saw a comment from someone suggesting a novel in French about a
> "what-if" encounter between DeGaulle & Petain which leads to a defiant
> stand by the French in 1940 rather than the historical armistice.  Alas,
> I seem to have lost the citation & still can't figure how to retrieve it
> from the archives.  Could that kind individual re-post or email me directly?

    I don't recall this being the case, but it is an intriguing idea.
I can't conceive of DeGaulle forcing Petain to stand fast. They were
diametrically opposite personalities, and, personally, Marshal
Petain, given his age and inclinations, would not have served with
DeGaulle. For one thing, I don't think he would have been able to.
I can see Petain suffering a heart attack before consenting to a
stand fast and die order emmanating from his office.

    Just my two cents' worth and thanks, again.

    Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Oct 1994 15:10:11 GMT-6
From:    "Robert T. Moore" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Invasion of Crete -- Operation Merkur

Hello, Emery and Dave!

Here goes with some more info on Crete.

The unemotional military prose hid Freyberg's conviction that his
force was finished. The Germans had won; all that was left was for
him to get as many of his men from the island as he could.

In the last three days of May, the survivors of the New Zealand
divisions and what was left of the British and Australian battalions
involved, fought their way to the evacuation beaches, pursued by the
mountain troops and the surviving paras also as weary as their prey,
were flagging now in spite of Student's exhortations as he sped about
their lines in his motorcycle sidecar.

Time and again, rearguard units sallied out and inflicted heavy
casualties on inexperienced or overconfident German commanders who
pressed them too hard. But there was no doubt in Student's mind that
the enemy was finished. Now the question-at least for Freyberg and
his subordinate commanders-was how the retreating troops would
survive the inevitable end. On the the 30th, men of the 5th Mountain
Division tried to cut off Kippenberger's men but the Brigadier was
still not prepared to give up without a fight. He sent a couple of
his weary companies to counterattack up the ridge which the skilled
German mountain troops had taken with such apparent ease, as he
records in his own words: "Upham's platoon was slowly climbing up the
steep 600 foot hill west of the ravine. The men were weak and very
weary but they kept slowly going and we could see that Upham was
working around above the Germans still in the bottom of the ravine
and pinned down by Washborn's weapons and by fire from the eastern
bank. Two hours after they had started the climb there was another
sharp burst of firing. It lasted almost a minute, there were then
some single shots and then silence. A little later Upham's platoon
started to come back and then a message came that all 22 of the enemy
party had been killed, completely helpless under his plunging fire."

More tomorrow and hope this has been of interest.

Terry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Oct 1994 17:19:13 -0400
From:    Jim Bowman <[email-masked]>
Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE

WWII-L UNSUBSCRIBE JIM BOWMAN

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Oct 1994 21:18:57 GMT
From:    SYSTEM 0PERATOR <[email-masked]>
Subject: RESEARCH: USAF Air Wings

I am doing research on the USAF for a wargame.
Hey Air force connoisseurs, will you be able to tell,
which of the following Wings were in 8th AF, and which in 12th AF ?

WING                8th AF ?   12th AF ?       Equipment/Notes ?
1st Bomber
13th Bomber
45th Bomber
304th Bomber
2nd Bomber
5th Bomber
20th Bomber
42nd Bomber
55th Bomber
6th Fighter
7th Fighter
8th Fighter
65th Fighter
66th Fighter
70th Fighter
62nd Fighter
63th Fighter
67th Fighter
71st Fighter
Others ??

Arnaud

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Oct 1994 19:04:14 -0400
From:    Carlos R Rivera <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TACT: Japan if no Pearl

RE: Henry Sirotin's response to Bryant,

> In any case, the Japanese intention had been to challenge the US for control
> of the western Pacific at least since 1907, when an Imperial Rescript to the
> Japanese armed forces declared the US had replaced Russia as Japan's primary
enemy.

--------That requires some amplification.  That rescript was actually the
Teikoku Kokubo Hoshin, or Imperial Defense Policy.  It was sanctioned in April
1907, but the Imperial Army selected the Russians as the primary enemy and
pushed subsequently for a large increase in the size of the army, up to 50
divisions for wartime purposes.  The Imperial Navy selected the United States
as its primary enemy and argued for the procurement of the infamous 8-8 fleet
program, that is eight battleships and eight armored cruisers/battle cruisers.

At no time between April 1907 and March 1922, did the Japanese Empire "declare"
that the United States had replaced Russia.  The defense policy was revised
several times, 1918, 1923, and 1935.  The US did become the primary enemy in
1923, due primarily to the results of the Washington Conference.  As to the
Philippines and the Western Pacific, the army's draft of the defense policy,
August 1906, limited the IJN to a minor role, blockade and occupation of the
Philippines.  The official policy, April 1907, did not contain that mission.
But in annual fleet exercises after 1906, the IJN did begin to practice the
interception of a westward bound American fleet.---Anyway, sorry to drag this
out, but its fresh in my gray matter.
Carlos R. Rivera
Ohio State University

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Oct 1994 16:19:16 -0700
From:    Bryant Evans <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TACT: Japan if no Pearl

>Dear Bryant-
>
>The Philippines were a dagger across the throat of any southern expansion
>of the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere. There is no way the Japanese
>could have moved into Southeast Asia or the East Indies without negating
>(and not simply neutralizing) the threat of American bases in the Phil.
>Unless they could get control of the islands peacefully, the chances of
>which I believe were zero, war with the US was inevitable. In any case,
>the Japanese intention had been to challenge the US for control of the
>western Pacific at least since 1907, when an Imperial Rescript to the
>Japanese armed forces declared the US had replaced Russia as Japan's
>primary enemy.
>
>Henry Sirotin
>
>
Ok, I basically agree, but consider this. At the time of PH, the US Pacific
Fleet had been, and perhaps would have continued to be reduced to support
naval activities in the Atlantic. Assuming (and that's all we can do) that
this trend had continued and Japan had not struck Pearl, wouldn't the task
of expanding the sphere have been made easier? In fact, do you think that
the US would have placed so much emphasis on the European conflict that a
major confrontation with Japan would have been the last thing the US either
wanted or could sustain?

Bryant

****************************************************************************
**********************************************

                                                                        J.
Bryant Evans, KC4KYZ

[email-masked]

****************************************************************************
**********************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Oct 1994 18:52:07 -0500
From:    Greg Kelley <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: The Big "What if..." 300 extra U-Boats

I think this suggestion has been effectively negated, but here's another
$0.02 worth of coffin nails.......

Remembering a reference in Richard Ogorkiewicz' book on armoured forces,
Poland in the 1930's found that for every destroyer or submarine they
purchased abroad or built locally, the funds could've gone to equipping
an entire battalion of tanks (now whether another half-dozen tank
battalions would've made that much of a difference for the Poles in Sep't
1939 is another point, which I'll have to digress on at some later date).
If you use that rule of thumb, an extra 250 U-Boat's would've meant, even
with the Reich's industrial base, that they would be short by at least A
HUNDRED Panzer-Abteilungen, which kinda hurts your army's offensive capacity.
Add to this the historical fact that the German economy didn't revert to
a Total War concept for YEARS after the war actually started (again, just
how many "what-ifs" can you allow?  Could there have been a Hitler who
would deny his people the fruits of a prospering prewar economy in
exchange for stockpiling arms?  Would the German people have gone along
with him, or would the Kreisau Circle've gotten a really BIG boost in
popular conspiratorial support?), I don't see how you can create a
feasible scenario.  After all, Raeder was still head of the Kriegsmarine,
so any increased U-Boat program would have to be tied to the Z-Plan, so
there's another few hundred thousand tons of steel committed to the H-N
class of battleships, a few more battlecruisers, three carriers, etc.,
making for even fewer resources for the other branches of the armed forces.

What might be more realistic would be a better use of the U-Boats &
resources at hand-- yes,  a few more Milch boats, better air support,
maybe even a K-Men raid on Scapa Flow as a pre-emptive strike at war's
outbreak.  There's an idea........

                                          Glad To Be Of Service!

                                          Greg Kelley
                                          St. Paul Public Library
                                          [email-masked]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Oct 1994 20:14:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: [INF] USAAF 18 OCT 44

COMBAT CHRONOLOGY OF THE US ARMY AIR FORCES
WEDNESDAY, 18 OCTOBER 1944
FTP SITES
  1. ftp.rutgers.edu in directory pub/wwii/usaf
  2. byrd.mu.wvnet.edu (129.71.32.152) in pub/history/military/airforce/
     wwii_chronology

AIRCRAFT MENTIONED IN THIS REPORT:
  A-20, Douglas Havoc
  B-17, Boeing Flying Fortress
  B-24, Consolidated Liberator
  B-25, North American Mitchell
  B-26, Martin Marauder
  C-47, Douglas Skytrain
  F-5, Lockheed Lightning
  P-38, Lockheed Lightning
  P-40, Curtiss
  P-47, Republic Thunderbolt
  P-51, North American Mustang

NOTE: A number in parenthesis after a target name indicates the number of
bombers attacking.

AMERICAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  ALASKA (Eleventh Air Force): 4 B-25s bomb Kurabu Cape Airfield on
Paramushiru Island and Suribachi; 8-12 interceptors attack the B-25s, which
claim 2 victories.

CHINA-BURMA-INDIA (CBI) THEATER OF OPERATIONS

  BURMA-INDIA (Tenth Air Force): In Burma, 13 P-47s attack Mingaladon
Airfield, 21 support ground forces in the Mohnyin area, 8 knock out 2 bridges
at Wanting, and 6 hit troops near Hwemun; 6 B-25s damage approaches to 2 road
bridges at Wuntho; 6 other B-25s damage approaches to 2 bridges at Namhkai
and Meza. Transports again fly nearly 300 sorties to several locations in the
CBI. In India, the 3d Combat Cargo Squadron, 1st Combat Cargo Group, moves
from Sylhet to Tulihal with C-47s.

  CHINA (Fourteenth Air Force): In China, 100+ P-40s and P-51s fly armed
reconnaissance over vast areas of China S of the Yangtze River, attack town
areas, troops, rivercraft, gun positions, supply facilities, airfields, and
other targets of opportunity around Kweiping, Shangkaishow, Tajungchiang,
Konghow, Wuchou, Shepchung, Hsinganhsien, Tengyun, Liutu, Tanchuk, and
Takhing. Railroad targets at Lang Son, French Indochina are also attacked.
The flight of the 21st Photographic Reconnaissance Squadron, Fourteenth AF,
operating from Liangshan moves to Hanchung, China with F-5s (squadron is
based at Kunming).

EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 682: 567 bombers and 604
fighters are dispatched to hit targets in Germany; 5 bombers and 5 fighters
are lost:
  1. 337 B-17s are dispatched to make a PFF attack on Kassel/Mittefeld (300);
targets of opportunity are Cologne (1) and other (2); 2 B-17s are lost; 1
airman is WIA and 18 MIA. Escort is provided by 388 P-47s and P-51s; 4 P-51s
are lost.
  2. 118 B-17s are dispatched to make a GH attack on the Ford Plant at
Cologne (79); 30 others hit Cologne/Nippes marshalling yard; 22 B-17s are
damaged; 1 airman is KIA and 2 WIA. Escort is provided by 38 of 45 P-47s
without loss.
  3. 112 B-24s are dispatched to make a GH attack on the industrial complex
at Leverkusen (39); 30 others hit the Cologne/Nippes marshalling yard; 3
B-24s are lost and 26 damaged; 27 airmen are MIA. Escort is provided by 139
of 146 P-51s; 1 P-51 is lost.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): Weather prevents operations of all
commands (including the 9th Bombardment Division) except IX Tactical Air
Command fighters which fly sweeps, rail cutting missions, and night patrols,
and provide air cover for the US 1st Infantry Division in the Aachen, Germany
area.

MEDITERRANEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (MTO)

  STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Fifteenth Air Force): 38 P-38s dive-bomb Vinkovci,
Yugoslavia. 41 P-51s escort C-47s to Greece.

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Twelfth Air Force): In Italy, most medium bomber
missions are aborted because of weather, but B-26s effectively hit Castel San
Pietro dell'Emilia warehouses and a railroad bridge at Padua; fighters and
fighter-bombers, operating on restricted schedule due to weather, offer
effective close support to ground forces in the mountains S of Bologna and
hit communications targets in the Bologna and Modena areas; during the night
of 17/18 Oct A-20s on armed reconnaissance bomb lights and vehicles E of
Bologna.

PACIFIC OCEAN AREA (POA)

  AAFPOA (Seventh Air Force): B-24s out of Saipan Island bomb Haha Jima
Island while P-47s bomb and strafe Pagan Island.

SOUTHWEST PACIFIC AREA [SWPA, Far East Air Force (FEAF)]: Bad weather
curtails a major strike on Balikpapan, Borneo; of 120+ B-24s and fighters,
only 8 B-24s and 8 P-38s reach the target. P-38s hit barges, small shipping,
and vehicles on W coast of Mindanao Island. In New Guinea, B-24s attack Sagan
and Babo Airfields. B-25s and fighter-bombers again hit Namlea on Buru
Island, Amboina and Liang on Ambon Island, and nearby targets, attack targets
of opportunity at Djailolo on Halmahera Island and in the Wasile Bay area,
and pound Urarom, Manokwari, Babo, Sagan, Otawiri, and other Vogelkop area
targets in New Guinea. HQ 307th Bombardment Group (Heavy), moves from Wakde
Island, New Guinea to Morotai Island. The 65th Troop Carrier Squadron, 433d
Troop Carrier Group, moves from Nadzab to Biak Island, New Guinea with C-47s.

SOURCES:
AIR FORCE COMBAT UNITS OF WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force History,
  Headquarters USAF, 1961, ISBN 0-912799-02-1
COMBAT SQUADRONS OF THE AIR FORCE, WORLD WAR II, Office of Air Force
  History, Headquarters USAF 1982
THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II: COMBAT CHRONOLOGY, 1941-1945 by the
  Office of Air Force History, Headquarters USAF, 1973
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH WAR DIARY by Roger A. Freeman, ISBN 1-85409-071-2

Jack McKillop
USAF (Airways and Air Communications Service)
1955-59

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop         |  Those who have long enjoyed such      |
|  Bellcore              |  privileges as we enjoy forget in      |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA    |  time that men have died to win them.  |
|  [email-masked]  |                       FDR              |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

18/0016Z OCT

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Oct 1994 22:26:13 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: INF: REGIA MARINA, PA

And as I recall, Ed, the Japanese had an excellent training program re/use of
torpedoes, especially firing at night, so in addition to the outstanding
qualities of the Long Lance, you had these two factors which certainly played a
large role in Japanese successes in the several night actions around
Guadalcanal in which the enemy scored heavily. Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Oct 1994 22:26:25 -0400
From:    Ben Frank <[email-masked]>
Subject: SAFE PASSAGE

I think that the one incident in which a Japanese ship was sunk carrying
American POWs was the Oryoku Maru, which loaded POWs at Manila and headed up
the coast in company with other Japanese vessels and came under U.S. air
attack. This was in December 1944. The Oryoku Maru was heavily damaged and many
Americans, as well as Japanese, were killed. Nonetheless, some of the POWs were
able to make it ashore at Olongapo, off of which the ship was attacked. The
remaining POWs were lined up and marched further north at bayonet point. Some
of those who couldn't keep up were beheaded. The rest were again loaded on
ships for the trip to Japan. One needn't remark that this was a pleasure
voyage. They were all crammed in the holds without water, etc. The rest of this
story may be found on pp. 775-77 in "Victory and Occupation," vol V, "U.S.
Marine Corps Operations in World War II." Ben Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Oct 1994 20:35:31 -0400
From:    David Rising <[email-masked]>
Subject: QUERY: Enola Gay controversy (fwd)

I got this off the H-Pol list. Just thought someone may be interested in
helping this guy out (or perhaps not). Cheers,
David Rising
P.S. Can he access the WWII archives to find our recent discussions on
the matter?

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 13:02:43 -0500
From: H-Pol co-moderator Peter Knupfer <[email-masked]>
To: Multiple recipients of list H-POL <[email-masked]>
Subject: QUERY: Enola Gay controversy

*********************
Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 10:02:09 -0500
From: (Patrick Novotny) <[email-masked]>
Subject: Enola Gay Controversy

I would like to know if there is anyone on the political history discussion
list who has been following the Enola Gay and Hiroshima controversy at the
Smithsonian for its upcoming exhibition in the spring of 1995.  I am
particularly interested in any newspaper accounts of the controversy or
background material on the exhibition itself.  Any help with this would be
greatly appreciated.

Thank you,
Patrick Novotny
Department of Political Science
University of Wisconsin at Madison

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Oct 1994 21:31:00 EDT
From:    mc killop <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: RESEARCH: USAF Air Wings

 >I am doing research on the USAF for a wargame.
 >Hey Air force connoisseurs, will you be able to tell,
 >which of the following Wings were in 8th AF, and which in 12th AF ?
 >
 >WING                8th AF ?   12th AF ?       Equipment/Notes ?
 >1st Bomber

1st Bombardment Wing (Heavy); arrived England 19 Aug 42; to 1st Combat
Bombardment Wing (Heavy) 13 Sep 43 and back to 1st Bombardment Wing (Heavy)
in Jun 45; to US Aug 45.  Served in combat with Eighth AF from Aug 42 to
25 Apr 45 with B-17s.

 >13th Bomber

13th Bombarmdent Wing (Medium); arrived England 2 Jun 43; to 13th Combat
Bombardment Wing (Heavy) 13 Sep 43; to 13th Bombardment Wing (Heavy) Jun
45; to US Aug 45.  Served in combat with Eighth AF from Sep 43 to Apr 45
with B-17s.

 >45th Bomber

45th Bombardment Wing (Heavy); arrived England 25 Aug 43; to 45th Combat
Bombardment Wing (Heavy) 13 Sep 43; disbanded in England 18 Jun 45.  Served
in combat with Eighth AF Sep 43 to Apr 45 with B-17s.

 >304th Bomber

304th Bombardment Wing (Heavy) activated in Italy 29 Dec 43; to US Sep 45.
Served in combat with Fifteenth AF Feb 44 to May 45 with B-24s.

 >2nd Bomber

2d Bombardment Wing (Heavy); arrived England 7 Sep 42; to 2d Combat
Bombardment Wing (Heavy) 13 Sep 43; to 2d Bombardment Wing (Heavy) Jun 45;
to US Aug 45.  Served in combat with Eighth AF Nov 42-Jun 43 and Oct 43-Apr
45 with B-24s.

 >5th Bomber

5th Bombardment Wing; arrived French Morocco Nov 42; to 5th Bombardment
Wing (Heavy) Jan 45; to US Nov 45.  Served in combat with Twelfth AF (Dec
42-Nov 43) and Fifteenth AF (Nov 43-May 45) with B-17s.

 >20th Bomber

20th Bombardment Wing (Heavy); arrived England Jun 43; to 20th Combat
Bombardment Wing (Heavy) 13 Sep 43; to 20th Bombardment Wing (Heavy) Jun
45; to US Aug 45.  Served in combat with Eighth AF Dec 43-Apr 45 with
B-24s.

 >42nd Bomber

42d Bombardment Wing (Medium); arrived North Africa Jul 43; arrived France
Nov 44; to US Oct 45.  Served in combat with Twelfth AF (Aug 43-Nov 44) and
First Tactical AF (Provisional) (Nov 44-May 45) with B-26s.

 >55th Bomber

55th Bombardment Wing (Heavy); arrived Italy Mar 44; inactivated in Italy
Sep 45.  Served in combat with Fifteenth AF Mar 44-May 45 with B-24s.

 >6th Fighter

6th Fighter Wing; arrived England Aug 42; assigned to Eighth AF but trained
replacement pilots for fighter organizations until disbanded in Sep 43.

 >7th Fighter

There were two 7th Fighter Wings, one in the Pacific and one in the MTO.
The MTO unit arrived in French Morocco in Nov 42; to 47th Bombardment
Wing (Medium) Feb 43; to 47th Bombardment Wing (Heavy) Apr 45; to US May
45.  Served in combat with Twelfth AF (Nov 42-Nov 43) and Fifteenth AF (nov
43-Apr 45).  As a fighter unit, it's groups used P-39s and P-40s; as a
bomber wing it's groups operated B-24s (1943-45), B-25s and B-26s (1943),
P-38s (1943-44).

 >8th Fighter

8th Fighter Wing; arrived Egypt Dec 43; to 57th Bombardment Wing Apr 43;
inactivated in Italy Sep 45.  Served with Ninth AF (Dec 42-Aug 43) and
Twelfth AF (Aug 43-May 45); it's groups operated A-20s (1943-44), B-25s
(1943-45), B-26s (1944-45), P-40s (1943-44) and P-47s (1944)

 >65th Fighter

4th Air Defense Wing; arrived England Jun 43; to 65th Fighter Wing Aug 43;
inactivated in Engalnd Nov 45.  Served in combat with Eighth AF Jul 43-Apr
45 with P-38s, P-47s and P-51s.

 >66th Fighter

5th Air Defense Wing; arrived England Jun 43; to 66th Fighter Wing;
inactivated in England Nov 45.  Served in combat with Eighth AF Nov 43-Apr
45 with P-38s, P-47s and P-51s.

 >70th Fighter

70th Fighter Wing; arrived Engalnd Nov 43; inactivated in Germany Sep 47.
Served in combat with Ninth AF Feb 44-May 45 operating with various fighter
groups assigned or attached for brief periods of time.

 >62nd Fighter

1st Air Defense Wing; arrived French Morocco Jan 43; to 62d Fighter Wing
Aug 43; inactivated in Italy Sep 45.  Served in combat with Twelfth AF Feb
43-May 45 with P-39s (1943-44), P-47s (1944i-45) and Spitfires (1943).

 >63th Fighter

2d Air Defense Wing; arrived Algeria Jan 43; to 63d Fighter Wing Aug 43; to
US Nov 45.  Served in combat with Twelfth AF (Feb 43-Nov 44); assigned to
First Tactical AF (Provisional) (Nov 44-May 45) without combat units.
Operated with P-38s, P-39s and P-400s and Spitfires (1943-44).

 >67th Fighter

67th Fighter Wing; arrived England Aug 43; inactivated in England Nov 45.
Served in combat with Eighth AF Dec 43-Apr 45; it's groups operated P-38s,
P-47s and P-51s.

 >71st Fighter

71st Fighter Wing; arrived England Dec 43; to US Nov 45.  Served in comabt
with Ninth AF Mar-Aug 44 when it's combat elements were relieved of
assignement.  Aircraft were P-38s and P-47s.

 >Others ??

Can you be a little more specific in what you are looking for?
 >Arnaud

-------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Jack McKillop              |  Those who have long enjoyed such |
|  Bellcore                   |  privileges as we enjoy forget in |
|  Piscataway, NJ USA         |  time that men have died to win   |
|  [email-masked]  |  them.                     FDR    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Oct 1994 22:36:20 EDT
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TACT: Japan if no Pearl

Dear Carlos,

Many thanks for the amplification, and for the implied corrections.
May I ask what you've been working on to have this "fresh in your
grey matter?"

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Oct 1994 22:54:23 EDT
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: TACT: Japan if no Pearl

Once the "Two Ocean" Navy started coming out of the yards- say by mid
1943- questions of strengthening one fleet at the expense of the other
would have been moot. I think Japanese planners knew this was the end of
whatever window of opportunity they had under the mid-1930s fleet
improvements they had carried out on their own forces. They simply
couldn't match that building program.

Henry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 17 Oct 1994 22:57:22 EDT
From:    Henry Sirotin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: QUERY: Enola Gay controversy (fwd)

I will mail him a copy of the Washington Post summary article on the
controversy, along with a note to go over to the library and use
Nexis.

Henry Sirotin

------------------------------

End of WWII-L Digest - 16 Oct 1994 to 17 Oct 1994
*************************************************